# Any good ideas how to process computer scrap big scale



## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Freind of mine just start this besness in Morocco .he use to sand all he's computer scrap to Europe now he decided to do it him self .he just start the company in Casablanca he purchase a big furnace can go up to one ton of metal in one time when I visited him he showed me this scrap he made after melting and the analyses .now iam trying to figure out what to do step by step .I know nitric 50 water first but he need a big place to hold the acid what it showing in picture it's to small .he asked me 2 years ago about the prosses for this I told him go with electrolytes fro Germany he didn't listen to me now .it's defrent.subject he already melt about 2 tons .and they still working .any ideas .iam thinking nitric to take copper out and then AR


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## Martijn (Jul 15, 2022)

Nitric on melted e-waste scrap bars is a waste of nitric and the environment. 

You'll have to dissolve 99.5% of copper and other base metals to get to 0.5% gold and a bit of precious metals, max. 
Creating tons of chemical waste. 

You could go for a big copper sulphate cell and collect the PM's in the slimes. 
The purified copper can be sold. 
That's how the big guys do it. Takes a lot of electricity though. 
But those lumps of metal look like there are too much other base metals in there. You need 95% or better copper purity for such a cell.

Some of the basemetals can be smelted off into the flux before you pour anode bars for the copper cell. 
That's a whole different art, Pyrometallurgy. 

Milling the boards fine and separating on a shaker table could get the gold out in a much more concentrated mix, leaving most of the copper ready to sell, and the concentrates can be leached in acid, or smelted and cupelled to recover the PM's. 

Here's a guy on youbtube who has very educational videos on the whole process and smelting experiments you can learn a lot from. 
He also sells the equipment and maybe even comes to learn you operate it. 
I have no buisiness relation with him.  Just love the guy. 
This is just the video for you:


What goes in to the furnace? Milled, magnetic- and gravity separated and incinerated metal concentrates or just whole cuircuit boards and transformers? The last way is also very polluting and can result in loosing gold, literally going up in smoke. 

Thanks for using periods, btw. You're getting there. Now try an enter between sentences sometimes


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## Martijn (Jul 15, 2022)

By the way, what on earth did you stick in the sand to make those casting shapes?

Poor horse..


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Don't know


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Nitric on melted e-waste scrap bars is a waste of nitric and the environment.
> 
> You'll have to dissolve 99.5% of copper and other base metals to get to 0.5% gold and a bit of precious metals, max.
> Creating tons of chemical waste.
> ...


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## Shark (Jul 15, 2022)

What, if any, collector metal was used in the melt?


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Nitric on melted e-waste scrap bars is a waste of nitric and the environment.
> 
> You'll have to dissolve 99.5% of copper and other base metals to get to 0.5% gold and a bit of precious metals, max.
> Creating tons of chemical waste.
> ...



Thank you for your help .I have to figure it out .how I am going to do this . it's to much metals .if you read the analyses.its around 75 Percent copper .he's got 2 tons already . gold not bad .but he need another analyses .your method looks great .yes to get rid of copper. need so much nitric and bigger setup .iwill some pictures next time of the furnace.


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Martijn said:


> By the way, what on earth did you stick in the sand to make those casting shapes?
> 
> Poor horse..


Not me whene i went to visit them in company they already start melting .I prefer shots in water.


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## Shark (Jul 15, 2022)

At the volume of copper it would make sense to add extra copper and process in a copper cell. The gold, silver and other precious metals seems to be minimal. Go for the copper as business and the precious metals as a bonus. Or use copper to break even and other metals as profit margin.


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Shark said:


> At the volume of copper it would make sense to add extra copper and process in a copper cell. The gold, silver and other precious metals seems to be minimal. Go for the copper as business and the precious metals as a bonus. Or use copper to break even and other metals as profit margin.


He's got a lot of scrap I will take some pictures of the furnace and the place .he's use to send every thing to Belgium to a refining company containers full every month it's big besness .before he start this company in Morocco I told him its not easy to refine .now I think he need more sotup and good way to do this . Iwill figure it out your idea and ma


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Biom said:


> He's got a lot of scrap I will take some pictures of the furnace and the place .he's use to send every thing to Belgium to a refining company containers full every month it's big besness .before he start this company in Morocco I told him its not easy to refine .now I think he need more sotup and good way to do this . Iwill figure it out your idea and ma


Your idea and Martgin looks great .for me I can't deal with so much refining . Iwill help him get started


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## Shark (Jul 15, 2022)

Once your up and running you can reuse your own Copper as a collector metal lowering some costs. Once the copper is processed the slimes will contain the precious metals.


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Nitric on melted e-waste scrap bars is a waste of nitric and the environment.
> 
> You'll have to dissolve 99.5% of copper and other base metals to get to 0.5% gold and a bit of precious metals, max.
> Creating tons of chemical waste.
> ...



Very interesting video . I may contact him it's very interesting thank you


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Shark said:


> At the volume of copper it would make sense to add extra copper and process in a copper cell. The gold, silver and other precious metals seems to be minimal. Go for the copper as business and the precious metals as a bonus. Or use copper to break even and other metals as profit margin.


I will see if he can do it .copper sel electrolysis is that correct


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## Shark (Jul 15, 2022)

Yes. This will refine the copper and leave precious metals in the remains.

Copper cell


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## Biom (Jul 15, 2022)

Shark said:


> Yes. This will refine the copper and leave precious metals in the remains.
> 
> Copper cell


I will see next week how I can try it there is some company's in Europe can do the setup or if we can do small setup first and try it .all the refining I did before just as hobby for me .not as besness . And iam following defrent story in some rare menerals .I worked a lot with A R . But just small refining for tests


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## olawlor (Jul 16, 2022)

Won't nitric on that alloy turn the 7% tin into a wet mass of gray tin(IV) paste that will be difficult to separate from the values?

The sulfate electrolysis approach sounds more promising to me, it should be able to purify the copper and extract the values as anode slimes.


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## Biom (Jul 16, 2022)

olawlor said:


> Won't nitric on that alloy turn the 7% tin into a wet mass of gray tin(IV) paste that will be difficult to separate from the values?
> 
> The sulfate electrolysis approach sounds more promising to me, it should be able to purify the copper and extract the values as anode slimes.


Thank you very much .shark and Martgin said same thing .iam looking to try it .I think that's the best option .thank you very much sir


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## Makcc (Jul 17, 2022)

Burning e waste in large rotary furnaces is definitely not the way. Trying to recover relatively small amount of precious metals from large amount of base metals is not economically feasible. I suppose the processor did not think this through and invested in large furnaces. Now it appears he is sitting with mixed metal bars and don't have a clue how to turn it into a revenue stream. 
There is a reason why companies ship their prepared e waste to proper processing and refining companies; they lose a little and make money. When you attempt to do it in house and you don't have or don't hire expertise, the losses will add up.


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## Biom (Jul 17, 2022)

Makcc said:


> Burning e waste in large rotary furnaces is definitely not the way. Trying to recover relatively small amount of precious metals from large amount of base metals is not economically feasible. I suppose the processor did not think this through and invested in large furnaces. Now it appears he is sitting with mixed metal bars and don't have a clue how to turn it into a revenue stream.
> There is a reason why companies ship their prepared e waste to proper processing and refining companies; they lose a little and make money. When you attempt to do it in house and you don't have or don't hire expertise, the losses will add up.


Yes exactly what happened .I warned him couple years ago .that not easy to do it your self .he didn't listen .and yes he need some one very expert .and electrolysis . He's got his licence from the government and build big place .the furnace and some equipment from italy.the furnace it's very big at least 500 k just the furnace .I will place a picture some time .iwill try to help him get started some how.he was making a lot of money sending the stuff to Europe .


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## 4metals (Jul 17, 2022)

The most prudent method is to pyrolyze the boards and sift out the metallic fractions. They will be mostly copper with solder and any PM's. Then use that big furnace to smelt the lot to remove all of the metals except copper and the PM's. The resulting bars are referred to in the industry as copper based bullion. The copper based material is then processed in a copper cell to recover pure copper and retain all of the PM's in the anode slimes. The anode slimes are then refined in aqua regia to purify the metals for sale. ALL of these topics are covered extensively in the Library. 

The powders that result from pyrolysis are typically crushed and sifted to make a fine powder which is usually shipped to a smelter, the benefit of making it into a powder is that it is a sample-able material which can be assayed before shipping. This is exceptionally low grade material as compared to the copper based metal fraction.

The copper based bullion can also be shipped to an outside refiner as it too is a homogeneously mixed bar and as such, reliably sampleable. 

For your friends benefit he is now equipped to melt the copper based bullion and start by shipping (after assaying in house) to a refiner and later when quantities warrant, set up to run his own copper cells. 

Most large operators following this line of processing start by granulating the incoming boards into small pieces for processing. This makes handling and proportioning the lot sizes easier. 

What your friend should use to his advantage is the processing in a way to provide himself with quantifiable fractions which can be outsourced until he is ready to expand to the next stage of processing. All the while letting the profits from his preliminary processing fund his expansion.


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## GoIdman (Jul 18, 2022)

Biom said:


> Yes exactly what happened .I warned him couple years ago .that not easy to do it your self .he didn't listen .and yes he need some one very expert .and electrolysis . He's got his licence from the government and build big place .the furnace and some equipment from italy.the furnace it's very big at least 500 k just the furnace .I will place a picture some time .iwill try to help him get started some how.he was making a lot of money sending the stuff to Europe .


There is more to e-waste than most people think, that is why i have started my "0 waste" series on youtube.
Boards can be recycled almost 95% but it needs proper equipment.
As Martijn described, a shaker table is the best way yet to separate all material, fiber, magnetic, plastics and everything else. Jason from MBMM demonstrates how it works.
There are ways to reuse all these materials to create usable and sellable end products thus making extra profits and steady incomes.
It is not just the PM that are valuable in a PCB.

Be safe

Pete.


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> The most prudent method is to pyrolyze the boards and sift out the metallic fractions. They will be mostly copper with solder and any PM's. Then use that big furnace to smelt the lot to remove all of the metals except copper and the PM's. The resulting bars are referred to in the industry as copper based bullion. The copper based material is then processed in a copper cell to recover pure copper and retain all of the PM's in the anode slimes. The anode slimes are then refined in aqua regia to purify the metals for sale. ALL of these topics are covered extensively in the Library.
> 
> The powders that result from pyrolysis are typically crushed and sifted to make a fine powder which is usually shipped to a smelter, the benefit of making it into a powder is that it is a sample-able material which can be assayed before shipping. This is exceptionally low grade material as compared to the copper based metal fraction.
> 
> ...


Yes we working on it now .there is refiner from Switzerland call me .I think it's good idea to do the first part .and sale to refiner to finish it .or add more equipment to electrlyes the material .this is in Morocco the labor is very very sheep that's how he's making most the profit. Refining this it's not easy .he's dealing with a lot of material and a lot of copper . The gold not bad


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> There is more to e-waste than most people think, that is why i have started my "0 waste" series on youtube.
> Boards can be recycled almost 95% but it needs proper equipment.
> As Martijn described, a shaker table is the best way yet to separate all material, fiber, magnetic, plastics and everything else. Jason from MBMM demonstrates how it works.
> There are ways to reuse all these materials to create usable and sellable end products thus making extra profits and steady incomes.
> ...


Shaker table looks very safe .iwill give him that option too . I didn't ask him how he separate the material yet may be by hand cause of the sheep labor .iwill see him this week and what he's options thank you pete


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## kurtak (Jul 18, 2022)

This video may help






INCINERATION PROCESS - Advanced Chemical Company







advchem.com





Kurt


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## kurtak (Jul 18, 2022)

Biom said:


> when I visited him *he showed me this scrap he made after melting*


First question --- per the bold print - are you talking about the second picture in your first post ?

If so - it looks to me like he is just letting everything cool down in the crucible - after the smelting - & then breaking the crucible away - after the melt cools down --- is that right ?

Also - is he just putting the whole circuit boards in the furnace & trying to smelt them ?

Or - is he sheading the circuit boards first - then putting them in the furnace to smelt them ?

Or - is he incinerating the circuit boards (ether whole - or - after sheading) - then putting them in the furnace to smelt

Is he using any flux in the smelting

If so - what kind of flux - & how much flux

In other words - we need MUCH MORE information on EXACTLY what he is doing - before we can even begin to really help him/you out

To really help him/you out here we need - not only a very clear & detailed description of each & every step in the process you are currently doing - but also pictures of what you are doing in each of those steps

Kurt


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

The incineration shown at Advanced requires a large amount of fume scrubbing to get permitted in the USA. Printed circuits smoke a lot. Pyrolysis makes the smoke a lot less of an issue as it re-burns the smoke and volatiles effectively and makes the scrubbing of the micro-fine smoke particles more effective.

The video posted earlier in the thread, using the shaker table, may work for some types of scrap but I think a portion of the values would remain on the fines and not be recovered. Shaker tables are not a new technology but they have been improved to the point where they are quite effective with the proper feed material. There must be a reason why a majority of the industry sticks with incineration/pyrolysis when dealing with the majority of the e-scrap that the average e-scrap refiner sees. 

It has been my experience that a ton of computer scrap generates about 300 pounds of copper for smelting. I did not mention this earlier (my omission, ooops) but the granulated parts should be magnetically separated to get out any magnetics. As per Kurts question about the crucible shaped copper pieces, what size processing lot did that represent?


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

kurtak said:


> First question --- per the bold print - are you talking about the second picture in your first post ?
> 
> If so - it looks to me like he is just letting everything cool down in the crucible - after the smelting - & then breaking the crucible away - after the melt cools down --- is that right ?
> 
> ...


Because sheep labor they break every thing apart and melt the metal iwill add some pictures of the fernance .I wasn't there whene they melt but he said they just dompet in cast iron but it come up like that they can't break the crosble to expansive


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> The incineration shown at Advanced requires a large amount of fume scrubbing to get permitted in the USA. Printed circuits smoke a lot. Pyrolysis makes the smoke a lot less of an issue as it re-burns the smoke and volatiles effectively and makes the scrubbing of the micro-fine smoke particles more effective.
> 
> The video posted earlier in the thread, using the shaker table, may work for some types of scrap but I think a portion of the values would remain on the fines and not be recovered. Shaker tables are not a new technology but they have been improved to the point where they are quite effective with the proper feed material. There must be a reason why a majority of the industry sticks with incineration/pyrolysis when dealing with the majority of the e-scrap that the average e-scrap refiner sees.
> 
> It has been my experience that a ton of computer scrap generates about 300 pounds of copper for smelting. I did not mention this earlier (my omission, ooops) but the granulated parts should be magnetically separated to get out any magnetics. As per Kurts question about the crucible shaped copper pieces, what size processing lot did that represent?


They sapariting every thing cause sheep labor and he melt in big furnance that what they doing so far . But they and tesaul is the big bars with almost 71 percent copper .electlyses is the key at this point . The table sheker it's not bad idea but they have to take that too as consideration


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

This is the furnance it's soo big


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

Thank you for the photos. So they are granulating everything and probably doing a magnetic separation. Then they just feed that into the furnace. I am sure it smokes heavily, enough that the cover on the crucible makes sure the smoke is directly removed to any pollution control devices. 
Is it possible to oxygen sparge the melt to oxidize the metals other than copper and PM’s? Your goal for electrolysis is to have a copper based bar in excess of 95% copper for ease of use in the copper cell. 
Ideally you would use the furnace for the circuit board pieces and then after it has been emptied and cleaned, add back the copper produced to melt it with a proper flux with oxygen sparging.


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

I just saw the latest photo’s you added. Been shopping at Italimpianti I see. 
You have a separate melt furnace so you are equipped to remove the undesirable metals from the copper bullion. 

Once you perfect the fluxing and sparging times you will be ready for electrolysis. 

Do you have photos of the scrubber for the furnace?


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> I just saw the latest photo’s you added. Been shopping at Italimpianti I see.
> You have a separate melt furnace so you are equipped to remove the undesirable metals from the copper bullion.
> 
> Once you perfect the fluxing and sparging times you will be ready for electrolysis.
> ...


I will take some more pictures if iam there .iam not sure .the equipment from Italy .iwill ask them again how they did it and kind flux .they don't know nothing yet about refining .


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

Biom said:


> I will take some more pictures if iam there .iam not sure .the equipment from Italy .iwill ask them again how they did it and kind flux .they don't know nothing yet about refining .


There is a big furnace and an other one smaller in the other side .


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

Biom said:


> i will ask them again how they did it and kind flux .they don't know nothing yet about refining .


Maybe I'm old fashioned, I know I'm at least old, but I always thought the smart thing to do was to learn about the process before putting down the substantial sums of money that they spent on this equipment. 

But fear not, you have come to the right place! If your friend is willing to share the information on his material and his process we can guide him to success. He will likely be quite impressed with the greater yields he sees when processing in house.


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> Maybe I'm old fashioned, I know I'm at least old, but I always thought the smart thing to do was to learn about the process before putting down the substantial sums of money that they spent on this equipment.
> 
> But fear not, you have come to the right place! If your friend is willing to share the information on his material and his process we can guide him to success. He will likely be quite impressed with the greater yields he sees when processing in house.


This company is the first in north Africa it's in Morocco .he use to send containers full to Europe . Refining this not easy . He spend .a lot of money .now he will add electrlises for sure .there this company I think interested to purchase his product from Europe .to finish the refining part he need to go farwards with electrolytes .he's antentions is to melt about 6 tons a month .he's big and get out at least 5 kilo gold a month .


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

The labor in Morocco very sheep that's he's adventage 


Biom said:


> This company is the first in north Africa it's in Morocco .he use to send containers full to Europe . Refining this not easy . He spend .a lot of money .now he will add electrlises for sure .there this company I think interested to purchase his product from Europe .to finish the refining part he need to go farwards with electrolytes .he's antentions is to melt about 6 tons a month .he's big and get out at least 5 kilo gold a month .


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

Biom said:


> his intention is to melt about 6 tons a month he is big and gets out at least 5 kilo gold a month .



I hope you do not mind but I’ve edited your quote for spelling. Don’t take this the wrong way because unlike being bi-lingual like you, I only speak English, and as this forum is in English it may be easier for some to understand. (BTW, there are many native English speakers here who could benefit from edits as well!) 

Now to your quote. 6 tons a month of circuit boards or incoming e-scrap? The distinction is critical because 6 tons of incoming e-scrap (whole computers, phones, etc.) is not a lot. Generally one person, properly set up to disassemble, can strip a ton of incoming e-scrap in one day. After the metal casings and fans and all of the non circuit board materials are removed it is usually 300 ish pounds of Copper so let’s say 400 pounds of circuit boards ready to granulate and de-magnetize. That makes about 18% by weight circuit boards. Let’s call it 20%. So that means to produce 6 tons a month he would need an incoming volume of 30 tons a month before disassembly. That is why the distinction is critical. These % numbers may vary but it is a good ballpark starting figure to start from. 

Anyway, yielding 5kg of gold a month, I am inclined to believe the 6 tons is pure circuit boards. 

Knowing where to start from is critical when setting up your electrolytic cells because you need to size your cells accordingly.


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## Shark (Jul 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> Now to your quote. 6 tons a month of circuit boards or incoming e-scrap? The distinction is critical because 6 tons of incoming e-scrap (whole computers, phones, etc.) is not a lot. Generally one person, properly set up to disassemble, can strip a ton of incoming e-scrap in one day. After the metal casings and fans and all of the non circuit board materials are removed it is usually 300 ish pounds of Copper so let’s say 400 pounds of circuit boards ready to granulate and de-magnetize. That makes about 18% by weight circuit boards. Let’s call it 20%. So that means to produce 6 tons a month he would need an incoming volume of 30 tons a month before disassembly. That is why the distinction is critical. These % numbers may vary but it is a good ballpark starting figure to start from.
> 
> Anyway, yielding 5kg of gold a month, I am inclined to believe the 6 tons is pure circuit boards.
> 
> Knowing where to start from is critical when setting up your electrolytic cells because you need to size your cells accordingly.


This could be another great thread in the making!


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

Shark said:


> This could be another great thread in the making!



Well let us hope. In the last potentially great thread, the OP got cold feet when he got enough out of us that he stopped giving feed back.


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

It seems Biom is communicating on behalf of his friend. And he seems to have a reasonable amount of understanding of what is involved to bring this process forward. Let’s hope his friend is forthcoming with the information we need to help him. 

From the equipment on site, which we have been given a lot of insight about thanks to photos by Biom, with little addition, I think the operation could become more efficient and quantify their own product before shipping to a refiner. All that is needed is a small fire assay setup to start. From there they could gravimetrically quantify the Gold content and Silver content and even the Palladium content in their copper based bullion before shipping. That’s a big deal. 

All he would need is a good analytical balance and an assay kiln. The existing hood and scrubber would suffice for parting in the fire assay process, and when the time comes the hood could also process slimes. And the good news is even the fire assay process is documented here on the forum. One stop shopping for refinery setup!


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

May be wrong calculation he give me .but I have been there couple years ago he's got a lot of workers breking every thing apart .like I said before iam not big scale refiner and I don't refine scrap .but what I see in his place it's alot . I will give exact statement .whene he start electrolysis.


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> It seems Biom is communicating on behalf of his friend. And he seems to have a reasonable amount of understanding of what is involved to bring this process forward. Let’s hope his friend is forthcoming with the information we need to help him.
> 
> From the equipment on site, which we have been given a lot of insight about thanks to photos by Biom, with little addition, I think the operation could become more efficient and quantify their own product before shipping to a refiner. All that is needed is a small fire assay setup to start. From there they could gravimetrically quantify the Gold content and Silver content and even the Palladium content in their copper based bullion before shipping. That’s a big deal.
> 
> All he would need is a good analytical balance and an assay kiln. The existing hood and scrubber would suffice for parting in the fire assay process, and when the time comes the hood could also process slimes. And the good news is even the fire assay process is documented here on the forum. One stop shopping for refinery setup!


Yes it can be done . but with big effort.and knowledge . Iam trying to help him to get it started .he spent a lot of money already .so there is no way back .but the get the electrlises.or sale the product as boulion to refiners


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2022)

Biom said:


> I will give exact statement .when he start electrolysis.


We can help you figure out how big and how many cells he needs for his production before he goes to the manufacturer who may try to sell him the Eiffel tower! But we need to know some copper numbers. But we can lay it out in a way that he can get paid for his copper before he starts electrolysis and show him how to figure out how much value is in the copper so he does not get taken. 

There are steps he can and should take to witness his material as he goes through the learning process. Seeing what he is going to do on a larger scale will be valuable information for him. And, believe it or not, all of the know how to witness the material being sent out to refine is also here on the forum! 

It's all about how much information we are given about his process in order to help him.


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## Biom (Jul 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> We can help you figure out how big and how many cells he needs for his production before he goes to the manufacturer who may try to sell him the Eiffel tower! But we need to know some copper numbers. But we can lay it out in a way that he can get paid for his copper before he starts electrolysis and show him how to figure out how much value is in the copper so he does not get taken.
> 
> There are steps he can and should take to witness his material as he goes through the learning process. Seeing what he is going to do on a larger scale will be valuable information for him. And, believe it or not, all of the know how to witness the material being sent out to refine is also here on the forum!
> 
> It's all about how much information we are given about his process in order to help him.


Great idea .yes you absolutely write . Iwill go to his place and see how I can fegure out by weight how much he's got exactly .iwill ask him what exactly the material he start with .last time he said about 2 tons already melted .and he took a simple got it analysis .


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## snoman701 (Jul 18, 2022)

For a moment lets consider that he was stated to be selling to a refiner in Belgium by the container load. Isn't that like a 99% chance that he was selling to Umicore? 

So I'm more curious why he stopped selling to them? Because I can imagine a scenario where I'm moving enough material to require Umicore to process it, but I can't imagine a scenario where I'm moving that amount AND build an operation that can effectively or responsibly process said material at a price competitive to what Umicore is processing it for. 

Actually, I can, and it's only if you can process the material for it's tin content, and realize that value...but that's part of Umicore's take. 

There is a huge jump in infrastructure when you go from trying to process material that has an intrinsic value of $30 / lb to one that has an intrinsic value of $3-30 / lb tied up in organics that are treated with brominated flame retardants and metals that don't necessarily play nicely together.


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> For a moment lets consider that he was stated to be selling to a refiner in Belgium by the container load. Isn't that like a 99% chance that he was selling to Umicore?
> 
> So I'm more curious why he stopped selling to them? Because I can imagine a scenario where I'm moving enough material to require Umicore to process it, but I can't imagine a scenario where I'm moving that amount AND build an operation that can effectively or responsibly process said material at a price competitive to what Umicore is processing it for.
> 
> ...


My opinion he maid mistake .but there is no way going backwards .he said couple years ago that . Where he send he's scrap to Belgium not paying him enough . That's why he start this now we talking about electrlyesis. So he will purchase more equipment .


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## 4metals (Jul 19, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> I can't imagine a scenario where I'm moving that amount AND build an operation that can effectively or responsibly process said material at a price competitive to what Umicore is processing it for.



There is often a big difference between what a refiner is processing the material for and what yield they are paying on. 

And tin is readily fluxed from a smelt to the point that I wouldn’t get worked up over a metal selling for $1.50 a pound. As the song says, you got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

4metals said:


> There is often a big difference between what a refiner is processing the material for and what yield they are paying on.
> 
> And tin is readily fluxed from a smelt to the point that I wouldn’t get worked up over a metal selling for $1.50 a pound. As the song says, you got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.


I think it's good besness . But to much hedeck. Some time it's good to loose some for other besness not to do it your self . He was making a lot of money just shipping the stuff . Without refining


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> For a moment lets consider that he was stated to be selling to a refiner in Belgium by the container load. Isn't that like a 99% chance that he was selling to Umicore?
> 
> So I'm more curious why he stopped selling to them? Because I can imagine a scenario where I'm moving enough material to require Umicore to process it, but I can't imagine a scenario where I'm moving that amount AND build an operation that can effectively or responsibly process said material at a price competitive to what Umicore is processing it for.
> 
> ...


Don't know wish company he use to sand he's stuff but it's in Belgium .he's got a big mix some gold palladium that's why he did the analyses. But still not easy to refine he need to spend more money . if he stop . he will loose money . there is no going back . he spend so much money so far .


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2022)

I see a lot of raw energy cost involved. Energy is high right now. In some places limited supply.


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

Palladium said:


> I see a lot of raw energy cost involved. Energy is high right now. In some places limited supply.


This is in Morocco it's true . He's adventage is the labor very sheep compare to Europe


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## Shark (Jul 19, 2022)

Just a random thought but In Morocco the potential for solar power could be really good depending on exact location.


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

Shark said:


> Just a random thought but In Morocco the potential for solar power could be really good depending on exact location.


Casablanca may be . But a lot of farmers use it in south of Morocco more sun like Florida . But it's good idea


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

Biom said:


> Casablanca may be . But a lot of farmers use it in south of Morocco more sun like Florida . But it's good idea


Cost of living in Morocco start getting higher gas price very high compare to USA .electricity too


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## kurtak (Jul 19, 2022)

I am sorry but I don't currently have a lot of time to post much (which is why you haven't seen me much lately)

I am seeing a lot of talk here about investing in & setting up a copper cell - which is fine - BUT -----------

Isn't that kind of putting the cart before the horse ????

I mean this current operation is not even close to producing a product that can go to a copper cell

And from what I can see (& maybe I am wrong) it looks like it is going take a fair amount of more money invested in this operation just to produce a product that can go to a copper cell

Shouldn't we be focusing on getting the current operation up to what is needed to produce the product for a cell (which is going to require more money) before talking about setting up a cell --- which we currently have no product for 

Kurt


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

kurtak said:


> I am sorry but I don't currently have a lot of time to post much (which is why you haven't seen me much lately)
> 
> I am seeing a lot of talk here about investing in & setting up a copper cell - which is fine - BUT -----------
> 
> ...


He does have about 2 tons of metal melted already it's in pictures and he's stock he need to go farwards .or sale the product as bars. .in way he shouldn't get starting the company till he's sure what to expect . He still a have a lot of scrap .


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## Shark (Jul 19, 2022)

Biom said:


> He does have about 2 tons of metal melted already it's in pictures and he's stock he need to go farwards .or sale the product as bars. .in way he shouldn't get starting the company till he's sure what to expect . He still a have a lot of scrap .



The quality of his product is what Kurt is talking about. To run it in a copper cell it needs a higher copper content. Also it needs any other base metals reduced as much as possible. 4metals mentioned this but I think was waiting to see if the owner had more input instead of going into a broad general detail.


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## jphayesjr (Jul 19, 2022)

kurtak said:


> This video may help
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Kurtak, interesting link, thanks. Gave me ideas for my own processing.


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## 4metals (Jul 19, 2022)

kurtak said:


> I mean this current operation is not even close to producing a product that can go to a copper cell


Actually they are further along than they think. Once the “dirty” copper which was assayed and posted in the first post, all that is needed is to oxygen sparge the melt in the smaller furnace (which has no visible exhaust). This will allow them to oxidize the lead and tin into the slags and produce good anode materials. 

Once they perfect the smelt process, they can come up with a figure of how many pounds a day of anode material they can produce daily in “full production”. Once they know that, they set up copper cells to refine that quantity of copper daily to keep up with the anode production. 

The last step will be the slimes treatment to recover the values. They already have a small fume scrubbed aqua regia hood for that process. Routinely vacuuming up anode slimes to collect them will keep them supplied with small aqua regia refining lots. And before they are confident with the aqua regia process, keeping in mind this is a learn as they go process, they can melt and ship high value “slime bars” to an outside refiner. (This material is easily sampled from the melt and should be quantified before shipping)

While they are perfecting the copper anode cleaning up by smelting, they can ship the copper based bullion (sampled and assayed of course) to an outside refiner to keep the operating capital flowing. 

So every phase from here on out they have the potential to ship assay-able bars to outside refiners until the point at which it is completely done in house. 

The title of this thread is misleading in that they already have a significant investment in equipment in place and operating. Usually people posting these type questions haven’t delved in financially and are just looking for methods.


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## 4metals (Jul 19, 2022)

Shark said:


> The quality of his product is what Kurt is talking about. To run it in a copper cell it needs a higher copper content. Also it needs any other base metals reduced as much as possible. 4metals mentioned this but I think was waiting to see if the owner had more input instead of going into a broad general detail.


A refiner would take those bars as they are but then hit you with “deleterious metals” charges. So it will be more costly because they will have to oxygen sparge the melt. 

But as a copper based bar, even with deleterious metals, it is a ways along the process and easier to process for the refiner. 

If the bars were oxygen sparged before shipping processing would cost less. 

And if the slimes were cleaned up and shipped as melted slime bars they would be even less costly. The higher the PM content, the better accountability, which means it costs less.


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## Shark (Jul 19, 2022)

Showing my lack of experiance, but is there a minimum weight or set weight for the copper bullion that needs to shipped or is it based on the over all weight of the shipment?


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## 4metals (Jul 19, 2022)

Back when I shipped copper based bullion the minimum lot size was 500 pounds. And that went straight to a copper smelter. I forget what the accountability on the PM's was back then but it was reasonable. And gold was $300!


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

Yes he invest a lot now he can't go backward .need the equipment for electrolysis .and of course . Just like your prosses . Iwill see what he's doing this week .hes looking to buy .the rest of equipment .he found some company in turkey iwill post all the equipment he's trying to purchase for electrolysis. To make sure it's the good one . And in same time there is some company wants to buy the metal the way it is to refine in Europe .


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## Biom (Jul 19, 2022)

Shark said:


> The quality of his product is what Kurt is talking about. To run it in a copper cell it needs a higher copper content. Also it needs any other base metals reduced as much as possible. 4metals mentioned this but I think was waiting to see if the owner had more input instead of going into a broad general detail.


Iam trying to figure out how it will work yes 4metal idea it's very good . Just my lack of knowledge about electrolysis. Never got that far in refining . I can follow instructions if he get the rest of equipment . And get him started .


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## Shark (Jul 19, 2022)

Biom, if you have not seen this take a look at it. 4metals wrote this up some time back on copper electrolysis. 

Electrolytic copper refining cell​


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## GoIdman (Jul 20, 2022)

Biom said:


> Shaker table looks very safe .iwill give him that option too . I didn't ask him how he separate the material yet may be by hand cause of the sheep labor .iwill see him this week and what he's options thank you pete


Seeing the pictures, seems a very good equipment.
The advantage of using a mill and shaker table with a magnetic separator lets you work as clean as you can, generates low toxic waste and create a lots of base materials for other products.
I use the fiberglass to mix it with concrete and make decorative pavement bricks, the plastics(granules) can be used to make road covers(asfalt, mixed with the ash and bitumen and other components) the magnetic material can be processed(if) containin any gold, in a sulfuric cell then recycled as metal at any junkyard.
You can make more money then jus burning everything and creating waste and poisoning your neighbourhood.
If labor is cheap, recovering and sorting would be an economic and feasable way to separate everything before proceeding to other processes, and there is more money to make from copper and silver, gold would be the clean profit this way.
There are several solutions for processing the material your friend has, some of them already presented by the members of this forum...but planning everything in advance could help very much.

Be safe,

Pete.


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## Biom (Jul 20, 2022)

kurtak said:


> I am sorry but I don't currently have a lot of time to post much (which is why you haven't seen me much lately)
> 
> I am seeing a lot of talk here about investing in & setting up a copper cell - which is fine - BUT -----------
> 
> ...





kurtak said:


> I am sorry but I don't currently have a lot of time to post much (which is why you haven't seen me much lately)
> 
> I am seeing a lot of talk here about investing in & setting up a copper cell - which is fine - BUT -----------
> 
> ...


He does have a lot of products for next few months and he keep buying from Morocco and af


GoIdman said:


> Seeing the pictures, seems a very good equipment.
> The advantage of using a mill and shaker table with a magnetic separator lets you work as clean as you can, generates low toxic waste and create a lots of base materials for other products.
> I use the fiberglass to mix it with concrete and make decorative pavement bricks, the plastics(granules) can be used to make road covers(asfalt, mixed with the ash and bitumen and other components) the magnetic material can be processed(if) containin any gold, in a sulfuric cell then recycled as metal at any junkyard.
> You can make more money then jus burning everything and creating waste and poisoning your neighbourhood.
> ...


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## Biom (Jul 20, 2022)

Shark said:


> Biom, if you have not seen this take a look at it. 4metals wrote this up some time back on copper electrolysis.
> 
> Electrolytic copper refining cell​


Nice . Iwill watched again . Not easy to understand it. but I know it's the solution .4 matels he's a smart


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## 4metals (Jul 20, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> The advantage of using a mill and shaker table with a magnetic separator lets you work as clean as you can, generates low toxic waste and create a lots of base materials for other products.


This is all very true but there is one thing you didn't factor into this reply; the equipment for the incineration has already been purchased and installed.

Shaker tables were originally introduced for use in mining where physical separation is not possible unless you have a river flowing through your claim.

The method of burning off whatever can be incinerated followed by treatment of the metal fraction has been the go to technology in the e-scrap recovery industry for years now. Likely because incineration has been around for many many years and the first e-scrap processors used what they had. 

I think it would be a great test for someone set up to granulate and incinerate to split a lot and process half the typical way to quantify the values, and granulate and ball mill the second half and pass it over a table. You are absolutely correct about the minimized environmental impact and it has the potential to radically change the process. 



GoIdman said:


> There are several solutions for processing the material your friend has, some of them already presented by the members of this forum...but planning everything in advance could help very much.


Advanced planning is always wise but I don't see the table manufacturers trying to implement this technology very often. Back in the early 90's I generated a lot of processed sweeps from jewelry production which was incinerated, and milled to a -60 mesh. This was shipped off to Degussa, if I remember correctly, for processing. I had read about shaker tables and thought there was potential. The material I produced had a gold content as high as 1 ounce per pound. After discussing the feedstock with Action Mining Services, I was assured the equipment would work. I took a few pounds, hopped on a plane, and they had a table set up for me to have my sample run over. After it was processed the table could not separate the wheat from the chaff as it were. No gold remained on the table, it all passed off with the fines. To this day there is a huge market if this type of separation was effective for fine powders processed, as most refiners today ship these powders to Europe for smelting. If the tables worked there is a huge potential, huge. If any of the table experts here would be willing to work on this application I know a good number of refiners generating these powders and I could easily connect the interested parties. Huge potential! (not for me personally, I'm mostly retired and in the giving back mode)


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## snoman701 (Jul 20, 2022)

When you were doing oxygen sparging on a small melt lot to get low melting point elements out, how did you determine end point? Were you lucky enough to have XRF and the ability to take a quick pin sample and know that a majority of the lead, tin and zinc were gone? 

Once completed with oxygen sparging, did you pole the copper to reduce oxides, or just ship it as is and make that the copper refineries problem?


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## GoIdman (Jul 20, 2022)

4metals said:


> This is all very true but there is one thing you didn't factor into this reply; the equipment for the incineration has already been purchased and installed.
> 
> Shaker tables were originally introduced for use in mining where physical separation is not possible unless you have a river flowing through your claim.
> 
> ...


I agree, i still work on my separation processes, and allthough i dont want to reinvent the wheel, i try to optimize the already known processes to minimize environmental damage.
There is still a long way to go, but sometimes success doesnt come cheap or fast, and i am sure i will fail in some cases until i find the correct way....allthough the fiberglass mixed with concrete makes very nice pavement bricks..


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## 4metals (Jul 21, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> When you were doing oxygen sparging on a small melt lot to get low melting point elements out, how did you determine end point? Were you lucky enough to have XRF and the ability to take a quick pin sample and know that a majority of the lead, tin and zinc were gone?


I have always believed, and it has rewarded me well in my refining career, that analytics, knowing what is in your material before processing, leads to the best choices. Back in the pre XRF days we always melted the copper fraction coming off the sifter into 1000 ounce bars. Those bars were run on an Atomic Absorption to determine the metal concentrations. From there, experience taught us that a minimum of 1 hour was needed in a sparging melt for the "average" bar and the bars were classified by their content so bars of higher concentrations of some metals were treated longer. 

So the end point was not determined during the process because the speed and efficiency of a quick pin dip sample followed by XRF did not exist. Tin and lead are effectively removed by air sparging and fluxing so we were able to produce low enough concentrations of the problem metals such that they were not an issue for copper cells. Even though we shipped the bars, the problem metals, often listed as deleterious metals by the large reiners, were low enough to be accepted without up charges from the refiner. 



snoman701 said:


> Once completed with oxygen sparging, did you pole the copper to reduce oxides, or just ship it as is and make that the copper refineries problem?


While we could have remelted the bars in a strong reducing melt to break the oxides it wasn't worth it to do a second melt. Plus a copper refinery will remelt and cast into large anodes in their normal process. I am not totally sure what you mean by pole the copper.


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## Biom (Jul 21, 2022)

4metals said:


> I have always believed, and it has rewarded me well in my refining career, that analytics, knowing what is in your material before processing, leads to the best choices. Back in the pre XRF days we always melted the copper fraction coming off the sifter into 1000 ounce bars. Those bars were run on an Atomic Absorption to determine the metal concentrations. From there, experience taught us that a minimum of 1 hour was needed in a sparging melt for the "average" bar and the bars were classified by their content so bars of higher concentrations of some metals were treated longer.
> 
> So the end point was not determined during the process because the speed and efficiency of a quick pin dip sample followed by XRF did not exist. Tin and lead are effectively removed by air sparging and fluxing so we were able to produce low enough concentrations of the problem metals such that they were not an issue for copper cells. Even though we shipped the bars, the problem metals, often listed as deleterious metals by the large reiners, were low enough to be accepted without up charges from the refiner.
> 
> ...


4metals just a smart professional refiner you deserve a big respect.


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## snoman701 (Jul 21, 2022)

4metals said:


> While we could have remelted the bars in a strong reducing melt to break the oxides it wasn't worth it to do a second melt. Plus a copper refinery will remelt and cast into large anodes in their normal process. I am not totally sure what you mean by pole the copper.



Poling copper is just melting it in a reducing atmosphere. Traditionally, green spruce poles were used, hence the term. Now lots of methods, but I think mostly injection of a reducing gas through tuyeres.


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## Biom (Jul 21, 2022)

Shark too big time


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## slsmp40 (Jul 21, 2022)

4metals said:


> There is often a big difference between what a refiner is processing the material for and what yield they are paying on.
> 
> And tin is readily fluxed from a smelt to the point that I wouldn’t get worked up over a metal selling for $1.50 a pound. As the song says, you got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.


$1.50 tin? In when, 1965 or so ? Tin is probably the highest value to actually be recovered in most boards. Spot is right around $13.00 and its the lowest it’s been in a while. Not only is it a reasonably rare metal indium tin oxide is about the only visible light transparent conductor that we presently have been able to discover. ROHs made it a more demanded metal, and touch screens are being produced in quantities i find unimaginable. One of the largest tin refineries is outside of Philadelphia, PA and I believe that they are paying 11$ for mine run metal right now so if you have some of that 3k a ton tin i think I can get rid of it for you.


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## Shark (Jul 21, 2022)

Biom said:


> Shark too big time


I am just a hobbiest that enjoys learning, and helping where I can. 4metals is the professional.


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## Biom (Jul 21, 2022)

Shark said:


> I am just a hobbiest that enjoys learning, and helping where I can. 4metals is the professional.


Me too iam just refining for hobby .I wish I can make my own small lab in Morocco or USA . .. one day


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## Biom (Jul 21, 2022)

Biom said:


> Me too iam just refining for hobby .I wish I can make my own small lab in Morocco or USA . .. one day


I learned a lot from this thread. It's great to get every body involved .iam sure we all benefit some how from this conversations .


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## Biom (Jul 22, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> Seeing the pictures, seems a very good equipment.
> The advantage of using a mill and shaker table with a magnetic separator lets you work as clean as you can, generates low toxic waste and create a lots of base materials for other products.
> I use the fiberglass to mix it with concrete and make decorative pavement bricks, the plastics(granules) can be used to make road covers(asfalt, mixed with the ash and bitumen and other components) the magnetic material can be processed(if) containin any gold, in a sulfuric cell then recycled as metal at any junkyard.
> You can make more money then jus burning everything and creating waste and poisoning your neighbourhood.
> ...


Great Mr Pete .it's true he can do a lot with he's besness . He need the rest of the equipment to complete the work .and an expert to completed .


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