# Mini AP Setup



## nivrnb (Sep 17, 2011)

To all,

I just wanted to post my small setup of the AP process. Things seems to be going well just very slowly. Thanks to the many great posts on this forum.

nivrnb


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## TXWolfie (Sep 17, 2011)

That looks really nice, and I can see your a very tidy person. I finally got a job after a while of looking and waiting but I start in October and then I can start buying all the neat lil toys of my new found hobby. Till then gonna keep reading and taking notes and building a work area for myself and collecting.


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## nivrnb (Sep 17, 2011)

TXWolfie,

Thanks for the kind words, I hope all goes well with your new job. I have been reading and search on DIY lab things and it is real simple to make your own lab out of common day things. Would love to see you setup when you done.

Below is some pics of the copper sulfate drop. I don't know if people want to see this or not but it sure is neat experimenting.

nivrnb


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## Palladium (Sep 17, 2011)

nivrnb said:


> Below is some pics of the copper sulfate drop.
> nivrnb



I think you mean copper metal drop don't you. Copper sulfate is a salt, not a metal. What you have here is copper metal.


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## nivrnb (Sep 17, 2011)

Palladium,

Yes, copper metal thank you for the correction. I am supprised at how much came out of the wash solution.

nivrnb


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## Geo (Sep 17, 2011)

its very fluffy in that state. once its washed and dried it will take up alot less volume.


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## Shaul (Sep 18, 2011)

That's a nice setup. I've got a couple of those suction bottles myself, with those exact same rubber stoppers. What kind of tubing are you using in the rubber stoppers, glass or plastic? 
Also, I hope those aren't edible plants in the background. Acid fumes can sure ruin the taste of your herbs and vegetables.

Shaul


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## nivrnb (Sep 18, 2011)

Geo,

I see what you mean, It looks like alot of metal and I am in the process of drying it.

Shaul,

I am using glass in the rubber stopper. Thanks for the advice about the plants, I have Bonsai but they are about five feet away. I hope I haven't damaged them. :shock: This is one of the reasons I have to go with a smaller setup because of the fumes.

nivrnb


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## seawolf (Sep 18, 2011)

Run a tube to a second flask filled half full of NaOH solution with the glass tube close to the bottom this will neutralize the fumes coming of the first flask. 
Mark


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## nivrnb (Oct 7, 2011)

seawolf,

Thanks for your tips on neutralizing the fumes. I don't have that many fingers to do that yet. On the next phase of the motherboards I will have to do.

Here are some photos of my update, things are going slowly and I believe I have lost some gold in the solution due to much H202 (peroxide). But not lost yet from reading, If I place copper into the dark AP solution (almost black) it should make it saturated with copper and push out the gold to black powder. I think I have a better understanding of the AP method and can see the solutions on a smaller scale. 

When I am finished will post the weight of the used fingers to gold ratio. At the moment I have recovered 2.1g, thanks to this forum.


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## nivrnb (Oct 7, 2011)

During this process, I have made some improvements. One was then I was taking out the material I would use tap water in a spray bottle to take off loose foils. And I noticed that the wash water would add up. So what I started doing was reusing the wash water to just washing and placing foils into a filter. 

More photos.


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## RESET (Oct 7, 2011)

I like this setup. With the amount of scrap that I can get my hands on, I think Mini is about as big as I will need. Consider this setup copied. Keep up the good work and Thank you for posting.


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## dtectr (Oct 7, 2011)

I think those are the cleanest solid foils I have ever seen! Great work on your attention to detail.
dtectr


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## nivrnb (Oct 7, 2011)

RESET said:


> I like this setup. With the amount of scrap that I can get my hands on, I think Mini is about as big as I will need. Consider this setup copied. Keep up the good work and Thank you for posting.



Reset, yes I only have about 2 lbs of fingers, plus this is my first time attempting this. On the forum I was reading that fingers are a good thing to start with and are the easiest to recovery. Thanks for the encouragement, wishing you success on your process.



dtectr said:


> I think those are the cleanest solid foils I have ever seen! Great work on your attention to detail.
> dtectr



dtectr, thank you for you comments. When I looked at the photos after I had taken it. I had to go back and look again, it was a lucky photo, everything was right the light hit it just right.


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## travis86 (Oct 7, 2011)

nivrnb said:


> Below is some pics of the copper sulfate drop. I don't know if people want to see this or not but it sure is neat experimenting.
> 
> nivrnb



I care to see them! You have some nice clean foils so far. Im a newb at this and like you clean setup and might copy it. Are you using just a regular off the shelf fish tank air bubbler?


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## nivrnb (Oct 7, 2011)

travis86,

I need to change the copper sulfate drop to copper metal drop I made a mistake. Yes, I am using just a plain fish tank air bubbler I picked up at Salvation Army awhile back. What I need to do so that the AP doesn't splash as much is to take out the glass tube, and just run the tubing into the solution. Heat the end of the tube closed and place pin holes in the tube so that the solution gets oxygen. Hope this helps.

nivrnb


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## Geo (Oct 7, 2011)

if you just poke a pin or needle through the tube it will close up and no air will come through, you will have to heat the pin and melt the holes through the tube.


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## travis86 (Oct 7, 2011)

The air bubbler helps gold foils from being dissolved by the ap? How does it accomplish this?


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## nivrnb (Oct 7, 2011)

Travis,

I beleive Palladium sums it up nicely, 



Palladium said:


> Once you drop the Copper from ap with steel your solution is spent. The thing to do is if your solution is saturated and the volume has increased from hcl additions or H2O2 is to pour off some of the spent solution and add steel to precipitate the copper. Then you can take the left over solution that you *didn’t add steel to* and add fresh hcl and bubble air through it to use it again. Or you take fresh hcl and take a cup of your old solution before steel is added and pour it into the new hcl to jump start your reaction. By doing this you don’t have to add any peroxide to jump start the process. All you have to do is add air after that to keep the reaction going. This reduces your overall volume of solution. The only reason you use peroxide in the first place is to oxidize the copper to oxide so the hcl can dissolve it. Once copper is in solution the air from your aquarium bubbler takes over and it supplies the necessary oxygen from the air to keep the reaction going. You can actually start with just hcl and air but the progress will be slow at first until the copper concentration picks up in the solution. Fresh acids don’t always mean faster rates. In this instance the more copper in solution the better because your etch rate will pick up considerably. The only thing that governs the etch rate at that point is the free hcl that exist in the solution. Most people don’t use their ap to completion because they think it is saturated to much. A gallon of hcl will hold about 3 lbs of copper. Not other metals, copper! I love mine saturated and plenty of air.


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## travis86 (Oct 7, 2011)

O, ok thanks!


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## nivrnb (Oct 7, 2011)

Travis,

I believe that hcl alone will not dissolve gold, but AP heated will slowly dissove gold.  

nivrnb


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## nivrnb (Nov 27, 2011)

Update, so far I have recovered 4.8 grams from fingers and boards. I have used 1 quart of Muratic Acid for about 4.5 lbs of close cut boards. One part that I feel that I need to work on is the filtering of the gold. Microscopic particles are getting caught in the filter and the only way that I know that this can be recovered is to burn the filter. I have a few more boards to do before I attempt the Acid Clorox. I am sorry for the elementary details of my process; I feel that I am on a very elementary level to the regulars that post of the forum. Thanks again to this forum and the many great articles.

nivrnb


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## philddreamer (Nov 27, 2011)

It looks like you're getting the "hang" of it. Very good. Continue following the advice & instructions shared by our experts in this great forum & you'll do fine.

Take care & be safe!

Phil


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## DarkspARCS (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for the info given by the OP in this post! I have a few questions... lol.

Here's my raw materials... about 10 lbs of gold boards and fingers:




Your solution was 30 percent HCL only, with a bubbler, correct? Utilized in a sealed container, with a fume straw? 

Did you use any Peroxide to get the foils to strip? As you can see in the image I supplied I have a large amount of gold foil. I want the foils to separate, just like yours did. I tried a previously posted Iodine method that didn't strip foils but instead disolved the gold into solution, which I had to use Active charcoal to retrieve the values from, which I now have to ash and then melt in a furnace to retrieve. That batch however consisted of flatpacks and pins. This is a whole new monster, as I'm now working with boards and fingers.

I guess I'll first off have to cut the boards down to small sizes, and then get a bubbler and flask stopper with some glass straws lol... When I get those I guess I'll continue my posts here, but my first question is important as to what type of HCL I'll need to use, 30 percent or 15 percent.

Another relevant question I have is pertaining to the black resin that is used on the gold boards I've posted the image of. How does one go about removing that black resin, which I believe covers a rich gold bearing chip set. Anyone have a suggestion?

Thanks for your assistance in this matter!!!


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## goaldspektre (Dec 2, 2011)

Awesome setup!


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## nivrnb (Dec 5, 2011)

Richard,

Your questions "Your solution was 30 percent HCL only, with a bubbler, correct? Utilized in a sealed container, with a fume straw?"

Yes, I used a 3 to 1 ratio of 30% HCL three parts to 1 hydrogen peroxide just to get the reaction to work. After that I used the solution and just added the HCL very little hydrogen peroxide. When I first started the combination of the chemicals was clear, and then it turned yellow, to amber green, to brown. I left them in the solution with the bubbler until it turned amber green. This kind of told me that the reaction was completed.

I used the stopper and the glass straw to prevent it from splashing; it is not necessary if you have a larger container.

"Did you use any Peroxide to get the foils to strip?"

To begin, I used 30 ml of HCL and 10 ml of hydrogen peroxide after that I just added HCL, I did not use any more hydrogen peroxide. When the solution turns amber green, I believe this is called copper II chloride. This solution is what causes the copper to go into the solution and release the foils.

"my first question is important as to what type of HCL I'll need to use, 30 percent or 15 percent."

I used 30%, as I stated above you don't need stopper or glass straw. I believe most people use a five gallon bucket with a bubbler with the end of the tube burned shut and with a hot pin make holes in the tube that goes into the solution. A very good video example is by the master lazersteve on his website.

"How does one go about removing that black resin, which I believe covers a rich gold bearing chip set. Anyone have a suggestion?"

I cannot see the resin you are talking about with you photo, a closer shot would be good. The one thing that I will say about the boards you are about to process is do not proceed until you do more reading and get more senior advice from the forum. The one thing that I can say is that the AP process is used mostly for close cut fingers, the reason being is that you are dealing with basically three things the board, the copper, and the gold foils. One thing that I would do with your boards is using a respirator and a heat gun is. Station your heat gun so that it does not move say like in a vice, and with some long needle nose pliers take each piece heat the board, then bang all the lose parts into a bucket. You want only to place the board, the copper and the gold foils into the AP.

When the solution turns brown, after your done, place a piece of clean copper into the solution to participate any gold, which will fall as a black powder. I have some cell phone boards like you have and I need to process them, what I am going to do is you some tin snips and cut the pieces down to only the gold exposed areas, and then use the heat gun to remove most of the solder from the back. One thing to note I see the cell phone pieces and so far when I have placed pieces like like that into the solution it did not all come off as a solid pieces but came on in very small pieces that get stuck in my filter it depends on how many mils the gold plate is. Please seek more advice and remember safety first, and good luck would love you see your first batch. 

nivrnb


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## kuma (Dec 5, 2011)

Hi DarkspARCS , how are tricks?
I hope that your well! :mrgreen: 



DarkspARCS said:


> Another relevant question I have is pertaining to the black resin that is used on the gold boards I've posted the image of. How does one go about removing that black resin, which I believe covers a rich gold bearing chip set. Anyone have a suggestion?



I believe that your talking about *solder mask*. 
Lasersteve has a great video on how to remove this to expose the gold plating underneath. ( http://goldrecovery.us/ , scroll to bottom of page , log in with the username gold and the password goldm1ner* )
In his video , Lasersteve demonstrates a method of removing this mask which uses Caustic Soda , or Lye.
If not used safely , this can be very nasty stuff. ( Lye MSDS ; http://tinyurl.com/boukqo9 )
You probably have this sussed , but I'll mention for any other noobs like myself reading this that not all of the boards that you come across will be gold traces underneath the mask , just scratch a small area to see the colour , the difference in colour between copper and gold should be fairly apparent.
Once these boards with gold traces have been depopulated and had the solder mask removed , they can be then processed with AP.
I hope that this can help you some , 
All the best with it and kind regards ,
Chris


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## kuma (Dec 5, 2011)

As an after thought chief , I'm wandering if your talking about the resin / epoxy type stuff discussed here ;
View topic ; http://tinyurl.com/7aoj4uz
All the best and kind regards ,
Chris


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## Geo (Dec 5, 2011)

the hard resin on those chips can be removed by a process i call "hammer blow" :lol: just lay flat and give each one a good whack or two with a hammer and the resin will bust off.


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## johnny309 (Dec 6, 2011)

And burn that resin as a first step and then hit it with a hammer(an elevated temperature disintegrate all the liants,glues to carbon...giving the black a structure like glass).

Don't trow away the black resin...in it's structure can remain wires of gold......store it and when is enough.....might consider to burn it with adding lead..as a collector of gold.


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## DarkspARCS (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks everybody for your sage advice... I'll be setting up shop on this soon, will keep you posted.

ETA: Can I do Gold LNB boards with regular gold boards? LNB Boards have the gold over the copper... without a solder mask. the solder mask is actually over the copper circuitry, with the heavy gold foil on top...




I'll definitely be wacking off those nasty black resin patches as specified, and will save the resin for later use...




next I'll be looking into gold plated pins and other plated items such as jewelry, other plated electronics, etc... I've got about 8 pounds of that...

THEN, lol... I've got Palladium/ Silver plated connector pins to process, about ten pounds of that. Then it's off to capacitor land, where I have a gallon jug filled with caps of all colors and shapes. 

Finally, I have about 10 pounds of flatpacks to crush and play with... lots of learning, lots of chemicals... O.º

I'm not even gonna get into the silver and gold ribbons I've accumulated... lol >*.*<


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## nivrnb (Dec 27, 2011)

Just posting some pictures, hope everyone enjoys. The pictures below are from RAM fingers and the small beaker is an experiment with a silver plated copper. I believe it is silver, I placed the object into HCL to see if it will disolve the copper and leave a silver shell.


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## DarkspARCS (Feb 3, 2012)

Hi guys!

I did what you told me, and it worked!







The solution that I filtered off is a dark black color, not even light can be seen through the solution... Here's the solution held up to a 100 watt bulb:




Now it was said to drop a piece of copper into solution and the black and brown powders would precipitate out. The solution is already saturated with copper... I don't understand how more copper will drop out these values, so I've held off on dropping in more copper. However, I placed a piece of steel into it and took it back out after two seconds.It fizzed, and the reaction coated the steel with a brown and black mud, which also somehow changed the molecular structure of the steel, because when I scrapped off the mud, and placed the steel back into solution there was no reaction, the steel came back out clear... HOWEVER... lol, when I placed the freshly redipped steel into water, black and brown mud instantly appeared on the steel and started breaking off in clumps within the water from the surface of the steel!

Here's the reaction:




Here's the steel, coated with brown and black mud:




My question here is: Is the brown and black mud the same brown and black powders that the copper was supposed to precipitate out, and if so should I continue placing steel into the solution until the mud stops adhering to it, scrapping off the mud and saving it with my foils captured in the coffee filters for incineration later?

Awaiting your answer... however, I'm pleased to see my first attempt at stripping foils work in such noble fashion! As can be seen however, I managed to get pieces of the green solder mask stuck in with the foils, I will have to figure out how to stop that from happening next batch... which I've got another batch coming soon, with the new boards being processed as we speak!

I need to figure out which method is best to get out the black and brown powders, which as you can see from the picture of the solution and it's richness are just busting at the seems and need to get dropped out lol!


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## maynman1751 (Feb 3, 2012)

What's plating on your steel is copper! If you want to cement values from the solution use copper. If you want to cement 'everything' use steel. I believe that you are trying to recover values, so use a sheet of copper or copper buss bar. The sediment that this produces will contain the good stuff! Also, don't worry about the solder mask. When you dissolve the gold, the mask will be left behind and can be filtered out.


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## Geo (Feb 3, 2012)

the only time you MIGHT have values in the solution is when the solution is still light green when the process is finished. if the solution is black like it is in the photo there will be no values other than copper. if you plan on re-using the solution, do not cement copper out of solution. re-use as is with an air supply. no need to add more H2O2 to your next batch.


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## nivrnb (Feb 13, 2012)

Richard,

I am glad to hear that your AP worked, it is really neat to see other people getting results. The question you had about the black mud, let me try to explain. With AP, for me I want to reuse it over and over. I do not drop the gold from the solution until I am done. If you only use a small amount of HP 3% you should not have very much gold in the solution. I only drop the copper out of the wash liquid. When it is as brown as the solution you have, I just keep the air bubbler in it and it should turn emerald green, if not I just add some acid to it. At the moment I don't have any more fingers to put into the AP, so now I am dealing with pins and connectors. This is a whole different beast.

I want to do post on it, but I don't know how it will turn out. What I am doing and what I have read, I have to separate the ferrous pins from the non-ferrous. I want to use the AP method since I have some from the fingers. I have been cutting each and every pin down to just the gold and placing the non gold plated portion into a spare jar. I am doing this so that the acid is not wasted on parts of the pins that are not plated. Also I am trying to eliminate any solder into the solution. 

By the way did you weigh your foils?

nivrnb


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## DarkspARCS (Feb 13, 2012)

I haven't had a chance to clean my foils yet, as I've run a second batch and forgot to place my boards/ fingers in a muriatic hot bath first... which as I'm sure you're aware created silver chloride in the solution along with my foils. I'm wondering if I should rinse all of my coffee filters with water into a bowl and run the filtered material through a hot muriatic bath. I'm afraid if I try incinerating or burning the filters with a torch I'll get a flash from the silver chloride.

I won't be able to weigh my foils until I figure this one out - let alone start working on the plated parts or gold filled jewelry. Got any suggestions?


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## qst42know (Feb 13, 2012)

I save the silver chloride filters in a gallon jar of water. When I accumulate enough to bother with I'll digest the filters and convert the silver chloride at the same time with lye.


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## nivrnb (Feb 13, 2012)

Richard,

This is how I cleaned the foils, my first step was to get three containers (the original, used AP, and Wash container). The original was the AP with the foils, the other empty (used AP) same capacity. I placed a funnel with the filter on the empty one (used AP). I used a turkey baster to transfer almost all the AP from (the original) to the (used AP) container. Which left me with a very small amount of AP and the foils in (the original) container. I now set the (used AP) container to the side or placed more fingers into it while I continued with the container with AP and foils (original). 

Now I used (the original) container and the (wash container), I took the funnel with the filtered AP and placed it onto the new smaller container. Go back and forth using new HCL to clean foils. I made a small diagram below, hope this helps.

nivrnb


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## lazersteve (Feb 14, 2012)

I would recommend the HCl wash be performed on the foils prior to filtering while they are still in the bucket. This way you can stir the foils and give the acid time to dissolve any CuCl (copper I chloride) in the foils. Sometimes there is lots of undissolved CuCl which requires more exposure to the acid and time to dissolve.

If you wash the foils with HCl in the filter, there is a good possibility that you will not dissolve all of the CuCl. This residual CuCl will report in your dissolved gold solution when you proceed to the dissolution step.

Steve


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## afreakofnature (Feb 15, 2012)

Sorry for my noob type question. I ordered lazersteves DVD and have read Ms. Hokes book. I want to start a small set up like what you have. I want to experiment and get it right. Plus i only see myself doing small batches like you until I can really find alot of RAM for later. So just a couple questions. I would like to see a picture of your entire set up, to see what equipment you use (if that is possible?). Since your fingers are not in a basket, how do you get them out or rinse them before filtering out your foils. I also see you do not dissolve your foils like shown in lazersteves video, do you just separate the clean foils from the pieces with green solder with tweezers and then dissolve and filter those pieces later (your pic of 2 beakers show them separated, maybe for later)? Those are just a couple questions I have. I look forward to trying to mimic your "desktop" set up. I love the small mini concept of it, especially since this is going to just start as a hobby. Maybe later on it will be come bigger. Thank you!


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## nivrnb (Feb 15, 2012)

Steve,

Thanks for you expert advice. My plan was to try and get the foils as clean as I could, then go back and rewash the foils again. From what I am reading once you think you have them as clean as you can, you have to do it again and again. Before I move on to the dissolution step, I am going to take the foils place into beaker than add the hcl, stir let settle, the siphon off the hcl, and repeat. Leave the foils inside that beaker to perform the dissolution step with the hcl Clorox solution.

I think that most of you guys would be horrified with my recovery process. I picture most of the people on this forum as scientist who do not even waste a nano particle of gold. For me after I am done with a filter, I think I've done the best I could with getting the gold off of it and place it into a zip lock bag, thinking in total, I have lost maybe two single foils (it is probably much more).


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## Geo (Feb 15, 2012)

nivrnb said:


> Steve,
> 
> Thanks for you expert advice. My plan was to try and get the foils as clean as I could, then go back and rewash the foils again. From what I am reading once you think you have them as clean as you can, you have to do it again and again. Before I move on to the dissolution step, I am going to take the foils place into beaker than add the hcl, stir let settle, the siphon off the hcl, and repeat. Leave the foils inside that beaker to perform the dissolution step with the hcl Clorox solution.
> 
> I think that most of you guys would be horrified with my recovery process. I picture most of the people on this forum as scientist who do not even waste a nano particle of gold. For me after I am done with a filter, I think I've done the best I could with getting the gold off of it and place it into a zip lock bag, thinking in total I have lost maybe two single foils (it is probably much more).



:lol: im not laugh at you by no means, but geez, i wish that was true. i lost almost an entire ounce of gold once by trying to evaporate water. yep, trying to evaporate water. i left a little over an ounce of gold powder warming on a hotplate to go eat supper and dozed off in my lazy chair, my son woke me and ask "dad, is that coffee pot supposed to be smoking like that?" i ran out and steam explosions had thrown gold as far as ten feet from the pot. i know this because i found some on the satellite dish 10 feet away. i recovered a few grams


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## nivrnb (Feb 15, 2012)

afreakofnature said:


> Sorry for my noob type question. I ordered lazersteves DVD and have read Ms. Hokes book. I want to start a small set up like what you have. I want to experiment and get it right. Plus i only see myself doing small batches like you until I can really find alot of RAM for later. So just a couple questions. I would like to see a picture of your entire set up, to see what equipment you use (if that is possible?). Since your fingers are not in a basket, how do you get them out or rinse them before filtering out your foils. I also see you do not dissolve your foils like shown in lazersteves video, do you just separate the clean foils from the pieces with green solder with tweezers and then dissolve and filter those pieces later (your pic of 2 beakers show them separated, maybe for later)? Those are just a couple questions I have. I look forward to trying to mimic your "desktop" set up. I love the small mini concept of it, especially since this is going to just start as a hobby. Maybe later on it will be come bigger. Thank you!



Afreakofnature,
Great questions let me do my best to answer. Pictures of my entire set up, I can but this will take me a bit. But what I have posted is pretty much most of it. I really don't show the air bubbler, or the plastic pipettes photo below. Fingers are not in a basket like lazersteves, how I remove them. Now, this is just me, what I do is I siphon off enough AP to get at the ram sticks with tweezers (plastic). Lift them up, use the pipette with the remaining AP to wash them into the container (that they are in). Do this until the foils come off, if hard to remove, I loosen them with a long needle. Wash them all into the container. I then take the now depopulated ram sticks out and place them into a cup or small container of water. Then place them into a bag to dispose.

The diagram I am showing is only how I get the foils into the filter and clean them, I have not disolved any foils yet. Yes, I use tweezers to get rid of any solder mask that gets into the filter. I get most of them but they are brittle and break into smaller and smaller pieces. Lazersteve has a great video of how to remove the solder mask before the AP process. Now the smaller particles of solder mask that are in with my foils, I will leave in there until the Acid Clorox method. 

Thanks for your questions, I hope I answered them for you, if not let me know.

nivrnb


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## nivrnb (Feb 15, 2012)

Geo said:


> nivrnb said:
> 
> 
> > Steve,
> ...




Geo, 

I have read your story and I really feel for you. I can just imagine, that’s what you call a very bad day. I have also read how someone was getting ready to melt some gold and the torch flame blew the gold out of the dish, another horrible day. But because people like you are sharing heartbreaking stories it helps newbies like me to be spared (hopefully) of some "bad days". But nothing could be as bad as being physical injured by using these processes. (SAFETY FIRST) I've had my share.

Have a great day.


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## AztekShine (Feb 17, 2012)

This is what I want to see more of! This type of log. Thanks for the porn!Mmmmmm srorry I meant pictures.


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