# Acid quantities and other tools of the trade.



## MacMasterMike (Mar 24, 2007)

What I need is some opinions on is the situation for buying acids. I can order from a chem house nitric acid at 4$ a gallon for 32% concentration which only comes in a 15 gallon stainless steel drum. The drum has a 200$ deposit which is a bummer but considering the price of the acid it isnt so bad. Having looked around online and seeing prices of different websites, which all seem to go for high quality regent market, and seeing how much they want for the small quantities has me in favor of the bulk buy. Now storing so much acid is a hazard of sorts but what do other hobbyists here do to store their acids? And should i avoid storage of such a quantity?

Now as if you couldn't tell I'm new to this hobby. In the next week or so I'm going to start with some silver(will post pics here if that ok not being gold). Hence why I'm really only asking about nitric acid at the moment. One regent I'm looking for that process is some lye or NaOH. Seems that the red devil consumer lye was the cat's meow when it came to the hobbyist needing a small cheap quantity. I have not scoured hardware stores in my area yet but is lye easy to find?


I was also curious about what people think about those "electronic gold testing stones" as featured at http://shorinternational.com/TestGold.htm .
Just curious about them is all. Thanks all for any response and is nice to see the community here already despite its recent start.


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## Anonymous (Mar 24, 2007)

Hi, Mike. I've been trying to AIM you to find out why you are using the National Environmental Protection Act as your "location" in your profile.

Starting out trying to find out where we posters buy acids doesn't seem very friendly for a government stooge.

a man named Sue


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## Noxx (Mar 24, 2007)

Hello MacMasterMike and welcome !
I don't know in the US but here in Canada, it's mostly impossible to buy Acids in high concentration (lab grade). I never found Nitric Acid and sulfuric acid is drain opener. You may consider making your own Nitric acid from Sodium Nitrate. I think you could get 60% nitric acid without distillation. If you have a recoil and the experience needed, you can get fuming nitric acid. But I don't not recommand going into this if you begin 

Silver is a precious metal so it is accepted to this forum ! I don't know much about silver refining so I will enjoy your pictures. Here in Canada, it took me a while to find NaOH. But I think in the US it's easier to find (again). You should look for Caustic Soda. White pellets, mostly 99%+ Sodium Hydroxide. Be careful ! This stuff is very corrosive. I once got a small pellet of NaOH into my eye and I can tell you it hurts lol...

I don't know those electronic gold testing stones sorry...
Maybe other members can tell

Good Luck !


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## MacMasterMike (Mar 24, 2007)

LOL NEPA stands for North Eastern Pennsylvania and by no means am I a government stooge. I'm not looking for where you buy acids any ways but rather if you guys think storing such amounts is not wise and if 32% concentration is ok? But hey my reading comprehension takes a nap on the job at times too so no biggie. Id like to chat with you some Sue if you want, I'll be signed on tonight.

Deffinatly not going to try to distill my own acid. For the lye Im looking for location, I've seen some of that red devil stuff on ebay but the shipping rates were higher than the bottle of the stuff. Thanks for anymore responses.


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## lazersteve (Mar 24, 2007)

Mac,
I don't recommend storing large quantities of any chemical for safety reasons. If you're setting up a full scale refinery that may be a different story.

I get my Red Devil Lye at the local Lowes store.

Steve


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## AgAuPtRh (Mar 24, 2007)

Hey Mike,

I would suggest you call Action Mining about Nitric acid
503-826-9330

I bought Hydrochloric acid from them and if I remember correctly they gave a the source in New York for Nitric. I would go with Steve's idea that the big drum would not be a wise thing to have around. it would be years before you got your deposit back.

I would also say that if you are refining--the 32 percent acid might not be the best. The reagent grade at 70 percent would be a much better investment. 

I'll look around for the source in New York--but it was quite some time ago that I made the purchase.


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## ChucknC (Mar 24, 2007)

I get most of my chemicals from AB Prospecting out of Az. I generally get reagent grade and dilute it as necessary to avoid a space issue. As far as prices, they seem to have the beat for small lots. 480-832-4524
www.abprospecting.com

HNO3 is almost impossible to find around here. HCl and H2SO4 aren't much better, but I can get muratic acid(dilute HCl) and drain cleaners and battery acid for H2SO4.

I get lye from Lowes or Walmart. Always check the lable to make sure it says that the product is NaOH. I haven't had any luck using KOH. It just doesn't seem to work as well.

Chuck


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## MacMasterMike (Mar 25, 2007)

Could some one go into a little bit more detail why 32% is not as good? I understand there is more bang for your buck if you will when it come to the liquid its self. I just see it being crazy that i can buy a gallon at 32% at 4$ and websites want 40+$ for 32oz or 70% concentration(this is still non-fuming yet right?). But when it comes to actually dissolving the metal does it take more time? Does it dissolve less metal per amount used? I would assume this would all be yes responses but Im curious none the less for a more detail explanation. I think Wikipedia told me for aqua regia the higher the concentration the better.

Oh and also just as a general comment, C.W. Amenn's text on precious metal recovery is a fine text and well written. Lucky enough to have it in my school library as it seems to fetch decent prices on internet bookstores if its ever available.

Thanks all for the lye info, the internet has me under the impression consumer lyes were taken off the market recently for what ever reason.


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## lazersteve (Mar 25, 2007)

Mac,

As you suspected the less concentrated the acid, the less metal it can dissolve. You can turn concentrated acid into diluted much easier than vice versa hence the expense. Concentrated acid takes up less room obviously. You can't use diluted acid when a recipie calls for concentrated. If you are in need of exclusively diluted acid then by all means get the cheap stuff.

Steve


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## ChucknC (Mar 25, 2007)

I just have a couple of problems with Ammenns. The "Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals" reads like an industry report to people who already know the ins and outs of refining. Is doesn't list times, temps and ammount of what to use that are key to what we do.

On the lye being removed from the market, ever had a Georgia Pecan Pie? What do you think is the main supplement pecan growers use around the roots of the trees? NaOH. It makes the pecans grow bigger and sweeter. I now this doesn't seem to have anything to do with refining, but it does give info about availability of a neccessary chem.

Chuck


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## Anonymous (Mar 25, 2007)

MacMasterMike said:


> Could some one go into a little bit more detail why 32% Nitric is not as good? ......


Here's your scientific answer, Mike.

Your math assumes that the concentration percentage is by volume. But, the concentration percentage shown on Nitirc solution bottle is mass percentage.
Other solutions will be different; it depends on their mass.

a man named Sue


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## catfish (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi Mac:

I strip a little silver off large copper electrical contactors my self. I make my own nitic acid by disolving about 4 oz of sodium nitrate or nitrate soda in about 8 oz of hot distilled water and then mix with "Easy Flow drain cleaner" Fairly high strength sulfuric acid (1Qt) and then sumerge my large copper silver clad items and let them soak. It takes about 2 to three hours, depending on how thick the silver is on the copper. This is not a super strong acid, but does the job and is very easy to make and fairly cheap. It does not get into the copper. I use Easy flow drain cleaner because I have trouble getting Rooto commercial drain opener where I live. I can order but there again the expense goes up. I refine gold and silver to make a profit. I guess the answer to your questions about nitric acid and the strength you want depends on just what you want to do and how much you are willing to pay to accomplish your objective.

catfish

PS I sell my refined silver in the button form and just as long as it is over 90% pure. I get the same price either way , 90% or 99.5%.

All major precious metal buyers allways refine the gold and silver they buy and assay them selves. My buyer only wants 90% or greater on silver and gold has to be 10 karat or better. I do some pins and chips that I nearly always come about 99% pure on first process. I meet or exceed thier requirement on one process. It is not worth an extra process, unless you just want to see if you can reinvent the wheel.


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## dwt9999 (Mar 28, 2007)

I have not yet read all the information on the site so if this has already been asked just lead me to the section to read. 

I am currently trying to process with AR made with HCl and Nitric acid(not 70%), is there a different option to process gold, without electricity ?

I will use the Nitric to process silver. But I am also interested in processing PGM, for which I will need to process in AR, will a non-Nitric acid AR work with the PGM?

I would appreciate any help in these matters.

Lew


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## lazersteve (Mar 28, 2007)

Here's a link to a post with short list of solvents for gold:

http://goldrefining.110mb.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=116&highlight=#116

There are many more with different reactivities. Start out small and test some of the safer ones. Be sure to check all the MSDS on google. Then look up the chemicals on www.wikipedia.org. Be safe and post your questions when you have them.

It's a good starting point.


Steve


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