# Spent Acid Peroxide questions



## beachbum1975 (Jul 15, 2010)

Sorry to bring up an old forum post, but I need some clarification on Steve's original instructions. 

Here's the original post: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5994 entitled "What to do with Acid Peroxide after removing the gold foils"

*Backstory: *
I have re-purposed an old 5 gallon homebrewer bucket to act as my spent AP solution holder. I have processed 2 x total batches of fingers and now my bucket is filled to the brim. 

I have a lingering feeling that much of my gold precipitated prematurely during the initial AP process on my second batch because after processing 5.5 lbs of high gold content fingers, I have a very small amount of brown powder in my pyrex beaker (after processing with HCL/Cl, then dropping with SMB).

The spent AP bucket (after allowing time to settle) is 50% dark brown/black and cloudy at the bottom, while the top 50% of the spent solution appears clear green.

Having said that, let's refer to Steve's comments:


> The black powder must be removed / filtered out before adding any iron to the mix. Once iron is added the copper will precipitate and the solution is no longer usable.
> To get gold out keep dissolving copper based items (fingers, some non-magnetic types of cpus and pins) until the color of the solution turns nearly black. Once the AP solution is black there will be no gold dissolved in the solution. At this point let it settle 24 hours and filter out the fine black powder (gold + contamination) Refine this material with HCl-Cl to get your gold back.


*Questions:*
1)	The "black powder" - From Steve's quote above, is the black powder he is referring to the stuff I want to siphon from the bottom of the barrel and process in HSL-Cl?
2)	The remaining greenish liquid – After siphoning all the darkness away, do I add the iron to the green solution?
3)	Am I reading this entire thing incorrectly? 8) 

I can take pictures and post them after work tonight if that helps.

Please let me know your thoughts…

Thanks in advance,

Beachbum1975


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## lazersteve (Jul 15, 2010)

I'll try to clarify:

1. Let black solution settle. During this time, it may become exposed to oxygen and turn light emerald green on top and the copper I chloride (black liquid) will form what appears to be a 'layer' of black liquid under the green layer. If left to oxidize long enough the entire solution will turn emerald green. The black copper I chloride liquid (saturated AP) is being oxidized by air to copper II chloride (green liquid) reactive AP. This reaction proceeds from the top of the solution towards the bottom slowly over time as the air penetrates the solution. These are all liquids and are not to be confused with the black powder that has settled to the bottom if any black powdered gold was present.

2. Siphon off all the liquid. Be sure you *do not* siphon off any of the black powder gold. Once the liquid is removed rinse the black powder into an appropriately sized beaker and process.

Steve


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## beachbum1975 (Jul 15, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> I'll try to clarify:
> 
> 1. Let black solution settle. During this time, it may become exposed to oxygen and turn light emerald green on top and the copper I chloride (black liquid) will form what appears to be a 'layer' of black liquid under the green layer. If left to oxidize long enough the entire solution will turn emerald green. The black copper I chloride liquid (saturated AP) is being oxidized by air to copper II chloride (green liquid) reactive AP. This reaction proceeds from the top of the solution towards the bottom slowly over time as the air penetrates the solution. These are all liquids and are not to be confused with the black powder that has settled to the bottom if any black powdered gold was present.
> 
> ...



Steve, as always, thanks for the response!

Now I just need to get more buckets 8) (You can never seem to have enough in this hobby)

Very well, I will siphon off ALL the liquids (copper I & copper II chlorides), collect the sediment and process this sediment in HCL/CL. 

With the remaining copper I & copper II chloride liquids, I will follow your process from the original link.

Thanks again!


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## trashmaster (Jul 15, 2010)

NEVER BUY BUCKETS AGAIN:::: Just go to any Bakery ( Wal-mark.. Kroger, ) Just ask them to save the bucket's for you , or just ask for the ones they have empty ... They will be happy to give give them to you .... YES you will have to wash and clean them :::: LOL
Hopes this helps a few members Paul


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## chrishawn (Jul 16, 2010)

Sorry for my ignorance, but I can't find a post about copper chloride 1 & 2, with black powder. Do I add HCL/CL directly to white, gray & black sediment to recover gold? Or is there another step involved? Thanks for all replies in advance.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 17, 2010)

chrishawn said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but I can't find a post about copper chloride 1 & 2, with black powder. Do I add HCL/CL directly to white, gray & black sediment to recover gold? Or is there another step involved? Thanks for all replies in advance.



Siphon off your liquid leaving the sediment and then run your sediment thru fresh HCL till no more color change and then process with HCL/clorox.


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## lazersteve (Jul 17, 2010)

chrishawn said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but I can't find a post about copper chloride 1 & 2, with black powder. Do I add HCL/CL directly to white, gray & black sediment to recover gold? Or is there another step involved? Thanks for all replies in advance.



Have you watched the Acid Peroxide video on my website? I cover all of this in video format there.

http://goldrecovery.us

Steve


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## rmi2416 (Jun 10, 2011)

Sorry to bring up old threads but I have a question about this one. My AP solution is almost black with a really dark green tint around the perimeter. My foils are not even close to being done. 
My question.

Once the AP turns black can I add more muaratic acid and a little peroxide to finish this batch? Then after siphoning take the copper out of it and then neutralize the solution?

Thanks,
Best Regards,
Ross

I have searched the 64 pages of acid peroxide and this is the closest I can find but not quite answer my question. I just want to be sure my idea is in line with common sense of the application and I am not going to have an adverse reaction.


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## jimdoc (Jun 10, 2011)

Are you stirring the batch? That seems to help get the foils off and put air into the solution.

Jim


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## stihl88 (Jun 10, 2011)

I think the basic idea behind it is to introduce oxygen to the HCL and the peroxide does a good job at that so if your peroxide is used up you may need to add more to the batch. I use a cheap air bubbler after a small addition of peroxide to get things moving and the bubbler does the trick of oxygenating the HCL.


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## Palladium (Jun 10, 2011)

I notice we seem to be running across the question of air introduction a lot here lately. I can't understand how people can study the ap process and not understand the importance of air from a fish bubbler or what have you. You must have air for the ap process to work !!! Hcl in and of its self will not dissolve copper. It will dissolve copper oxide. When you add H2O2 to the ap it is only to get the process started. It allows the copper to be oxidized and the hcl to take it into solution. It does nothing more than speed up your reaction and start time by giving you a jump start verses just starting with air. You can just start with air and hcl also, but the process is slower. Once it gets to going all you need is air. I add 5 gallons of hcl and 1 quart of H2O2 to a 15 gallon vessel and then i hit it with a lot of air. From there if i need it all i add is hcl. Air Air Air Air !!!!!

Note: This post is not pointed at anyone directly. Just decided i need to put it out there. 8)


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## rmi2416 (Jun 10, 2011)

I think I might have not stated my question clear enough. It not the oxygen I am worried about its saturation. Adding oxygen to my Ap will not unsaturate my solution. My solution is now black with brown tint I will try a bubbler but from what I read once I saturate the AP with max copper then the processes stops even with oxygen. This is my 3rd time using this AP and I was worried about mid process saturation of copper and how to handle it if it happens.


Best Regards,
Ross


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## Palladium (Jun 10, 2011)

Just add more hcl.


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## Palladium (Jun 10, 2011)

Have you read this yet?


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## rmi2416 (Jun 10, 2011)

Hey wow thanks. I have never seen that but some of the pics look familiar. You just answered every question for a long time I would have in one post thanks.

I was under the assumption that eventually I had to remove the copper.

Thanks,
Ross


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## rmi2416 (Jun 10, 2011)

Here is a pick of after a day with a duel bubbler going. The color is why I was confused. There seems to be a whole lot op powder at the bottom so we will see after all the fingers fall off


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## rmi2416 (Jun 10, 2011)

I will try that. Thanks for the heads up 8)


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## Palladium (Jun 10, 2011)

You don’t have to remove the copper, but the more you use it and the more you add hcl, the larger the solution volume becomes. What you can do is take some of your saturated solution and use it for a starter in your next batch instead of adding H2O2. 
Look in my sig line under chemistry handbooks for some more hidden treasures.


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## Palladium (Jun 11, 2011)

Just to give you an idea i think 1 gallon of hcl will dissolve 3lbs of copper give or take.


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## rmi2416 (Jun 11, 2011)

1 gallon of what concentrate? If you know I am only using the mauratic 36%.


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## Palladium (Jun 11, 2011)

I think it was based on 37.5 %


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## freechemist (Jun 16, 2011)

The most important reaction in AP-solutions to dissolve copper is the oxidation of metallic copper with Cu(2+)-ions already present in solution through the preliminary combined action of acid (HCl) and peroxide (H2O2) on metallic copper. Once formed, Cu(2+), dissolved in an excess of aqueous HCl reacts with metallic copper to form Cu(+), itself being reduced to Cu(+). So the actual driving reaction in the AP-process can be formulated as: Cu(metal) + Cu(2+) => 2 Cu(+). Cu(+) in HCl-solution will be reoxidized quite rapidly by atmospheric oxygen (from the air) to Cu(2+). Solutions of only Cu(+) in aqueous HCl are colourless, whereas solutions containing only Cu(2+) range from blueish to yellowish green in colour, depending on Cu- and HCl-concentration. Solutions, containing both species, Cu(+) and Cu(2+) are often very dark coloured.
Aeration thus is most important in the AP-process, because it will reform Cu(2+), which will dissolve more metallic copper, according to the following reaction stoichiometry: 4 CuCl + O2 + 4 HCl => 4 CuCl2 + 2 H2O. From this it is evident, that reoxidation of Cu(+) by aeration consumes acid through formation of water out of the reduced oxygen. And at last, most important for the AP-process: Cu(2+) in HCl is not able to oxidize metallic gold.

freechemist


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## lazersteve (Jun 18, 2011)

Ross,

The copper chloride etchant pdf on my website wil give you a complete understanding of the AP reaction if you take the time to study it throughly.

Key factors are pH of the solution and copper concentration. 

Steve


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## Palladium (Jun 18, 2011)

Well look what the cat dragged in.  

Starting to worry about you there Steve. How's life treating you?


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