# refining white gold



## au-artifax (Jun 13, 2013)

Hello and thanks for looking. I am refining another batch of karat gold jewelry and decided to throw in some white gold mixed in with yellow gold. I am heating the Aqua Regia like normal, but white metal flakes are floating around and will not dissolve. The bulk of the white gold jewelry is dissolving, but the coating just will not go away. What would this metal be and is it worth saving? Is it rhodium? If so, how do you dissolve it and can it be refined also? 
Well.... Anything you can tell me would be great, and in the mean time I will just go about the process as normal, filtering as I go. Thanx!


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## Geo (Jun 13, 2013)

Rhodium plating is used to plate silver and white gold jewelry. it is most likely the flakes you see. rhodium does not like to dissolve in AR even when warm.


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## steyr223 (Jun 13, 2013)

Hey au-artifax how is the head
Um i am not 100% positive but as i was kinda
Skimming through your posts you never mentioned 
Any karat jewelry batches or processes
So how do i know you know the process and your
Not youtubin

I give you there are a thousand ways to skin a 
Cat but to help you i really need to know what you
Have done
You say heating the AR as normal,whats 
normal to you (just below a boil,little bubbles,
Until you get actual steam expl otion big bubbles 
That harold talks about, or maybe just in the sun
For a day) im sure most of our normal varies 

What really bothers me is you mention 
nothing of inquarting or shoting

Are you just droping your gold directly into
AR did u melt your white gold with silver

It is very difficult to refine karat gold with just
Dropping it in acid
The karat gold is made strong for humanitys
Harshness
There are alloys that are mixed with the gold
These alloys protect the gold from dissolution 
In your AR
You need to melt silver(easiest) or a base metal
And bring it down to a minimum of 6k for complete
Dissolution
Any ways I doubt you're going to get very many
replies without providing more information
Hope this helps
Steyr223 rob


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## au-artifax (Jun 14, 2013)

The shorter of the replies actually gave me more information. In my original post I mentioned white shiney flakes of metal floating around not dissolving while everything else was. Regardless of the karat, size of bubbles, to-inqaurt-or-not-to-inquart, ..... hot aqua Regia was not dissolving this metal. It was not a precipitate from the reaction; it was simply not reacting, having come OFF of the underlying karat gold. Also, as I was able to keep dissolving more gold in the solution while the flakes kept floating around, suggests that my solution was not saturated with gold yet. There was no left over sediment at all after the reaction was finished except the white whiney metal flakes and a few specks of gold that would not dissolve after the nitric was spent.
So my questions remain as far as if there is anything of value in my filter. Is it worth saving, and can it-should it be refined in the future?


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## Palladium (Jun 14, 2013)

If you didn't inquart then your silver will be silver chloride and it will be trapped in the filter paper with the Rh foils. You should ALWAYS save your filter papers for later processing for values.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 14, 2013)

Thin rhodium flakes will dissolve in hot conc. sulfuric: http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1045

Test for rhodium:http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=16869&#16869


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## Palladium (Jun 14, 2013)

As a side note those silver chloride powders will contain gold residuals.


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## au-artifax (Jun 14, 2013)

I know you're stuck on the silver, but why. There was no silver.... No silver chloride.... Nada....none.... 

I asked about the flakes. Well to detail my progress so far, I took a fresh batch of SnCl and ran tests. There was some slight pricipitation over night of a fleshy colored pinkish sparkly sediment along with the flakes on the bottom. I filtered them out, washed them with a little ammonia water just to be able to say absolutely no silver chloride, then tested the then again acidified material. 

What I got on the paper test was an orange color with some of the precipitate and SnCl and when I heated it it turned a dark shade of pink... A little reddish even. Then just stirring the solution with a pipette dipped in SnCl.... Not even a drop worth, and set it out in the sun, the solution when I returned was the same dark pink color. Initially it was kinda hard to discribr...a dark orangy yellow ....that would have been on the Brown side if it had gotten any darker. 

Now what I have read so far suggests that I have a mixture of rhodium metal and rhodium salts (chloride).

Does anyone have any other suggestions (besides silver....as it would have turned into the all very familiar silver chloride.). In my limited experience I have not seen that much Ag in 10k gold....it's usually less expensive fillers like copper to keep it darker and other cheaper metals. I did throw some 14k in at the end just to saturate the Ar with gold and use up all the nitric. OH....THAT REMINDS ME.... I have to do a thread on what I would call "mechanical" passivation. I actually ran a repeated experiment to verify I was not dreaming this up. Look for it in the procedures section.


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## au-artifax (Jun 14, 2013)

Also, I was wondering if there could have been some rhodium sulfate in the solution with the Rh and RhCl3, because I did add some H2SO4 during the dissolution process. That was before I washed the sediment though. The solution took on an immediate pink red tinge which I poured off before washing.
? Ideas? 
Do any of the other PGMs act this way?


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## Geo (Jun 14, 2013)

i would filter and precipitate the gold normally and reclaim the gold powder. evaporate the left over solution to about a third of what it was and cement with copper. if the solution is nice and clear, you can use zinc. of coarse this is not refining but reclaiming. if you intend on continuing with large batches of jewelry, collect the flakes and cemented powders. unless it was a really large batch, it cant be more than a few tenths of a gram. save until you have enough to warrant the time and chemicals to refine it.


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## Palladium (Jun 15, 2013)

au-artifax said:


> I know you're stuck on the silver, but why. There was no silver.... No silver chloride.... Nada....none....



So your running straight karat jewelry without inquarting and you are saying their is no silver chlorides?


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## au-artifax (Jun 15, 2013)

I appreciate the information you are trying to pass on P, but the info you are relying on is just simply out of context. Isn't inquartation to assist in allowing one to defeat passivation? Well if the gold is dissolving then inquartation isn't necessary now, right!?.... And what falls out, falls out right?! Yes!!!!... I did dissolve karat gold without inquartation, but it was simply not needed, (not in context) to what would get the job done. When I get enough karat material that won't dissolve, then I will go through the extra time, energy and money to inquart .

Also, there having been a considerable amount of copper in the karat gold, the silver would have cemented out as elemental silver long before the process was completed. I would have seen that. And as a check I put a copper tube in the solution to check for possible silver, because yes I refine that too, as well as dropping out the copper in the end in a scrap bucket. 

And still we are not addressing the FLAKES and the sediment I described. Through all the communication about what I am seeing, we can get off the "silver" thing now....please!


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## solar_plasma (Jun 15, 2013)

> Thin rhodium flakes will dissolve in hot conc. sulfuric: http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1045
> 
> Test for rhodium:http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=16869&#16869



Have you tried this? If not, could you please give a short explaination why - I like to learn.


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## arthur kierski (Jun 15, 2013)

the flakes are probably rh plating------weight the flakes and mix with ten times nahso4 powder--put in an oven for 3hours at 500centigrades .this forms a cake that is dissolved in boiling water---then ,you have a rhsulphate solution----if you want pure rh, you can cement this solution with zinc powder or with formic acid
regards
Arthur


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## au-artifax (Jun 15, 2013)

Thanks aurthur and solar. I have not yet tried to dissolve the material in sulfuric yet. My first thought was that I didn' t want to see it disappear yet. We all have had enough times where we found out later that we have unknowingly threw values away. At some point, soon, that is what I will do. That will be, after all, another diagnostic measure. I would like to learn as much as I can about my suspected rhodium first.
Unfortunately Holke does not help much. She skirts (no pun intended) around rhodium and many of the other PGMs always promoting that we sell sell sell to a refiner to deal with, (but isn't that what we are here for?!).
Thanks also for the methods for creating rhodium sulfate and also rhodium sponge. There is plenty online regarding creating solution with the objective of plating jewelry, but not much on recovery and refining. Thanks, and if we could keep the thread going long enough, there won't be values lost, (c'Mon now...there are you guys out there that threw your rhodium huh?.... Admit it now!). :lol:


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## Palladium (Jun 15, 2013)

Your right ! This thread is about something else. God forbid i try and put some extra education in it for you. All i keep hearing is " I want my answer about about this question answered. " Carry on sir !


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## Geo (Jun 15, 2013)

au-artifax, what some other members are trying you is, Karat gold usually has a certain amount of silver as the base metal alloy. even if you did not add silver, there will still be some silver present.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 16, 2013)

> that we sell sell sell to a refiner to deal with, (but isn't that what we are here for?!).



After all reading and learning I have come to the belief, that less is often more also in refining. Therefore I have decided for my case to wait with PGM's and only set my focus on silver and gold, - and here only certain methods, because every metal and every method costs space, special equipment and certain chemicals - last not least certain knowledge. Rhodium seems to be very, very special and strange, so if I were you, I would just keep it till I have more and would not spend more time and effort on it. Then you can still decide, if you want to become one of the few specialists on this item or just sell it. I don't know, if this is related to your question, just some thought of mine.

I am sure you didn't want to disgruntle anyone, but you do good in showing a little more gratitude,when those very helpful, experienced and knowlegdable men reply at all, - even if you think, you can't use the answer in that context. It is easy to leave the wrong impression in written language.


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## butcher (Jun 16, 2013)

I also wonder how anyone could work with a batch of karat gold and not have silver involved.

White gold contains white metals to lighten its color, white metals used to form the white gold alloy are nickel, palladium, platinum and manganese, also copper, zinc or silver can be used.
Rhodium metal plating is also used on some white gold jewelry.

White gold jewelry can also be made from a gold-palladium-silver alloy or gold-nickel-copper-zinc alloy. The nickel alloy is most often encountered in older white gold jewelry most manufacturers, are moving away from nickel because so many people seem to be allergic to it. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold


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## solar_plasma (Jun 16, 2013)

I guess the point is, he knows the difference between white fine AgCl powder and strange silverish metallic flakes. Although you guys mentioned some interesting facts. I wouldn't have thought of that silver chloride drags down some gold. Good to know.


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## au-artifax (Jun 16, 2013)

That is nice to know, that you can lose gold values in the silver. I was always focussing on getting the silver out of the gold, if there was any. Thanks. And solar, you are right, I should show a little more gratitude to those trying to teach me new things. I am sorry, and really have learned something from each and every reply.


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2013)

The more we learn, The more we find we need to learn.


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## au-artifax (Jun 17, 2013)

Ok, first time with white gold, and I have discovered much. I made enough mistakes that now I have to redissolve the whole batch. It seems there was rhodium, and in my attempts to heat it enough to dissolve, some of it did. Now my gold precipitate is mixed in with a bloody colored solution, which settles after a while. At first when I saw the brick red precipitate I thought it might be palladium, or is it platinum. But it soon turned the color of dark red blood. 
Should I just redo the whole batch in cold AR and then figure out what to do with the red stuff? I don't know if it is an insoluable rhodium salt. How do I turn rhodium salt back into it's elemental state?
At least I know everything is still there. Even though it is getting squirelly on me, I still want to learn how to do white gold by itself. I am finding it is better to separate my gold a little better, and not try to refine the same way I do my laundry.

Next time when the gold is done, I leave whatever didn't dissolve alone, collect it, and do a batch of that some other time.


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## Palladium (Jun 17, 2013)

If your dealing with white gold then chances are their is some Pd present. Now i would like to point out again the benefit of inquarting. Had you inquarted the Pd and Pt would have been removed before the Ar process. When alloyed with silver Pd and Pt will dissolve and follow the silver into nitric. After the nitric step you would have been refining nearly pure gold making you job a lot easier and the recover and segregation of the metals a snap. The whole process should be completed in an 8 hour process from start to finish at the most.


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## au-artifax (Jun 18, 2013)

WOW!!! I never looked at quartation in that respect. Thank you for a HUGE lesson! And humility is part of it too butcher.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah, they are great, arent they?


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## au-artifax (Jun 18, 2013)

Actually, that "thankyou" was meant for you Solar as well, especially after the part about Pt and Pd following the silver into the nitric. I will refresh my Holkes to see if she says how to get the PGMs out of the nitric. Silver is easy. On that note, has anyone ever tried adding silver chloride, tin and sulfuric acid together? I am curious if the tin would take on the Cl from the silver, or would that just give me silver sulfate and tin chloride?


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## solar_plasma (Jun 18, 2013)

Palladium said this Pd-Pt-thing. That was also new to me. :lol: But okay, in my very special way, I am great, too. 8) I am great in asking annoying questions,for example. :lol:


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## butcher (Jun 18, 2013)

Solar you are truly great in your special way. 

au-artifax, 
I think you too have grown, and earned my respect for you as a fellow member, with your humility you have actually raised yourself to a higher level in understanding and respect from others, with this minor step you have put yourself on to the course of becoming a better refiner and forum member, and an all around greater person.

Funny the very thing our pride seeks, the ego pride destroys, the very thing our Ego fears, is that that we can truly be proud of. 

We as humans are very funny creatures with our prideful egos, the very thing our ego fears,and can help us grow, is actually what can make us proud of ourselves, Humility, is actually the thing we need to grow and to gain us respect, to be able to be truly proud of ourselves. 

It is very hard to learn, until we can admit to ourselves we do not know.


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## steyr223 (Jun 19, 2013)

when nobody esle would take the time (actually
most of the guys were looking at there appointment 
book trying to find an empty few hours for you)
i come running to your rescue ,probably took
3 hours out of my game playing and then had to
recharge my phone so 4 hours 

but do i get more respect ,do i get to have an ego
no i just get pushed aside

the info that paladium gave you is second hand
news i could have told you at the getgo but didnt
think you were ready for it..... What ....what's
everybody looking at ..........really

all jokes aside i am glad you have found your
way

steyr223 rob


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## au-artifax (Jun 20, 2013)

Well thanks. I want to get some ideas here, on how now to deal with these mixed precipitated. I can think of some for sure methods: A.....redissolve all in AR then precipitate pt, pd then au in that order (I actually went through the processes to drop pt andpd but think my solution was not boiled down enough... Or I didn't wait Lon enough... Or I didn't add enough ammonium chloride or chlorate....whatever.)
B.....go ALLLLL the way back to the inquarting process;

C.... I had an idea that if I try redissolving JUST the au with AP, I could get a good separation (I figure this might save materials).

Does anyone have any opinion on this they can share? I have plenty of time, haven't really lost metal values....just trying not to lose much more time .....not to mention.... Losing something that will cascade into losing the most.... My patience!!!


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## Geo (Jun 20, 2013)

you may have a better outcome to precipitate gold first. ferrous sulfate mixed with the solution will bring down mostly gold. this leaves the last two. after you condense the solution by evaporation, ammonium chloride is added to precipitate the PGM's. palladium can be removed from the incinerated powder with hcl boil.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 20, 2013)

The more efforts one already has invested into a mistake, the more unlikely one will be able to stop. I learned this, when I studied some years MA in social behavioral sciences ( well, I did stop,before I got MA, but those studies were only a hobby to me like refining now, - beside my work). But I think, to be aware of this effect, could help you in your decision. I would try not to let me lead by the emotions now, but carving objectivity. Take the most proper way, although it will cost some patience. 

I am curious what our masters of refining will say, is the most proper way. I just saw that Geo already has answered and he is one of those,who know, what they are talking about. Just a question....would going back and do the inquartation not be the most proper way?


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## Geo (Jun 20, 2013)

yes, i do apologize for not adding that its just my opinion. im sure there are a couple different better ways but my meager understanding of the subject (ive only actually done it a couple of times myself). i was assuming it was already in solution.


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## au-artifax (Jun 21, 2013)

The timeline for this fiasco went like this: dissolved jewelry in AR and decided to throw in some white gold. Saw silvery flakes not dissolving so I cranked up the heat on the AR. The flakes never fully dissolved so I filtered them out. There was no silver chloride in sight and the solution was a green tinted but on the yellow side. To remove the nitric I did a combination of saturating the solution with gold and evaporating it down. I added some ammonium chloride to see if anything would precipitate and nothing,(not realizing I did not condense the solution after reconstituting it with dilute hcl). Then potassium chlorATE and nothing came down. Then SMB.... and lots of precipitate....more than I expected.
Wash wash wash in h2o, wash wash wash in hcl, wash with ammonium hydroxide, wash wash wash with water, then hcl, then wash with water.
In the middle of all this washing the solution turned blood red and the precipitate like powdered brick. That's where it sits...a mixed precipitate of gold, platinum, palladium and rhodium. Hey, at least all the values are still there, without the base metals. (I am sure the ammonia stripped away any chlorates of silver and copper long ago
So that's it in a nutshell. 
Notice that I never inquarted.....(yes...he can be taught)

Hope that clears up any vague points. Seems I dragged all the PMs down at once. 
(Sticky wicket)


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## au-artifax (Jun 21, 2013)

So going Alllll the way back would be melting it all down with (I estimate 6 oz of silver, but seeing as it's no longer karat gold, do I use the full 3/1 ratio of silver/gold?), then nitre-out the silver/platinum/palladium. The gold drop is easy enough, But what do I do with the Rhodium? I dont have a fussion furnace to process rhodium the right way.
Do I go after the PGMs the same as if it were done in AR after dissolving in plain nitric, (after having added hcl to the filtered solution to bring down silver chloride...then filtering again). Would the adding of hcl create AR at that point and the solution now take on the pt and pd?


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## butcher (Jun 21, 2013)

If these powders were mine I would consider, Incineration of the washed and dried powders,to remove traces of previous acids and compounds, then treat them first with dilute HNO3 to remove any base metals, silver and palladium, then go after the gold, if working without heating the solution strongly not much of the platinum would go into solution, since this is already powders not much reason to in-quarter at this point, unless for some reason you wished to collect platinum with the silver, and unless this was a very big batch I do not think their will be enough PGM to mess with, saving the insolubles till you get enough PGM to mess with or sell, and collecting the traces from solutions in your stock pot.


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## au-artifax (Jun 21, 2013)

We are sorta on the same wave pattern. Today when I had siphoned off all the liquid after another wash I had my hotplate on and started getting ready to roast the precipitated. I stopped though, questioning whether it mattered that I didn't do the last wash with distilled water. That's what I was getting ready to do.

But now that I heard how it sounded coming from you, I think that is what I am going to do....(what you would do). The only dded thought I had was that following the predure you laid out, with the mix I have, is that I don't have to worry about the Pt because it, along ith the rhodium will be the only thing left in the vessel right before I strain it and grab the gold out of the filtered solu
tion.

There definitely is not enough yet, like you said, to go after those two...(three if there was any chance of iridium, but very doubtful) the Pt and Rh. Question though....about the Pd.... If it's mixed with the silver in the hno3, and I put hcl in to precip silver, then the filtered solution I treat like regular AR? 
funny... My mind is spinning because I am thinking way ahead of myself here. I need to collect a lot more PGMs before it would be economical to use materials up like that. And a huge inefficiency on my part.
Well thanks again though. Tomorrow I will roast my powder.


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## butcher (Jun 22, 2013)

Before roasting silver or gold that has seen chlorides, I will normally wash them in dilute NaOH solution this forms NaCl salts of any chlorides, which can easily be washed with water, this is a precaution as silver and some gold can become volatile if roasted with any chloride salts.

The nitric will dissolve base metals silver and most of the palladium, silver can be precipitated as a chloride with either table salt NaCl or HCl this will leave palladium in solution, problem is the silver will need converting back to metal before melting (silver chloride is volatile and will burn up most of it as white smoke) silver can be converted with the NaOH Karo syrup method or with one of the acid and metal methods to replace silver from solution.

This will leave most of the palladium in solution. which can be recovered by several methods, cement out out palladium with copper (probably easiest), or zinc (cements out several metals), you can also evaporate the solution down several times adding HCl with each concentration to change the palladium to a chloride, then NH4Cl, and small additions of sodium chlorate to precipitate pd from boiling hot solution (trouble some procedure), or using DMG, dimethyl glyoxime is not only costly reagent, and forms very voluminous solution, for this reason DMG is normally better to test for palladium than a recovery method. and with small volumes you can always just collect palladium in one of your stock pots. 

As with the other PGM's what metal you chase after now or try to recover later from the stock pot or silver pot, can be determined of how much of these metals are actually in solution, many time it is easier to keep healthy stock pots and accumulate these metals until you have enough to make a recovery of them, chasing traces will also loose some of the small traces, and you may not have enough to amount to anything recovered, while saving them up in the stock pot letting them accumulate to larger volumes, it may be easier to recover and also you may not loose as much in 
the long run.


The Platinum groups are similar in nature to the in that they are hard to separate completely,
they for them most part are more difficult or if not almost impossible to put into solution.

Palladium will not dissolve easily in aqua regia, but it will dissolve into HNO3 alone, or HCl alone fairly easily, (Hoke's speaks of dissolving the palladium in HCl first before adding HNO3 to form the aqua regia to put the other metals into solution with the Pd, otherwise it would be hard to get the palladium to dissolve into the solution with the other metals).

Platinum will dissolve in very hot aqua regia,but can take a long time to dissolve, if powders more easily than the solid metals, but still difficult, gold will dissolve into a cold or barely warmed solution of aqua regia (if not alloyed with silver, or in a high alloy of PGM), gold powders also dissolve much more quickly than solid metals, this gives us a way to dissolve gold away from platinum with out putting much platinum into the solution.

Iridium also dissolves very slowly if at all (incineration can actually help to make it more insoluble depending on previous treatments), you could then cover the powders with adding HCl first, then adding HNO3 ,and heat the aqua regia strongly, to put base metals, palladium, gold, platinum, iridium would dissolve very slowly if at all, Rh is almost impossible to dissolve into this solution.

But then again with most of these PGM's unless you have processes an awful lot of dental gold or jewelry with these metals involved you most likely will not have enough to mess with, so the stock pot method as taught in Hokes book is one way to keep a good little piggy bank.

Keep studying Hokes book, there are different ways you could go about recovery of these metals, and many times the choice you may choose can be decided when you know the conditions you are faced with, or materials and their conditions, as with different situations you face different challenges of recovery, separation, or refining.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

Compressed information! Thanks Butcher! *printed and laid into my Hoke's*


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## butcher (Jun 23, 2013)

:lol: 
Already in Hokes.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

I know, but you have just concentrated some goldnuggets into a few lines. I have read half the book and half of Ammen now, 4 month of reading in the forum, but nevertheless I got not aware of, that plain HCl would dissolve Pd fairly easy, which is casting a new light on the preparation of e-scrap for me.

edit: In the case of smd ceramic capacitors, that would explain, why Pd will dissolve, if you wait too long - when all basemetals are dissolved, Pd cannot cement back anymore and won't stay in the solids.


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## au-artifax (Jun 23, 2013)

I can only discribe dealing with PGMs like flying vs. driving... it is so three dimensional. That was a good succinct rundown on everything one can do and choices nr must make.

I need to rememer though, so keep reminding me, always keep my sights on what I was going after in the beginning. It seems do easy to go chasing after that "little challenge" we run into along the way. I think having a mixed stockpot is fine....do long as it doesn't keep making so much noise ... if you get my drift.

Here is a serious question/concern I have:

Does it matter if we keep our stock pots either base or acid? I can see how the tendency is for the pot to be an acidic slurry of chloride compounds. Does anyone think there would be some benefit to keeping the stock pot base with hydroxide additions....or anything to help get metal compounds closer to where we want them to be prior to refining? I haven't read anything regarding this, so does anyone have any experiences that might be pertinent?

Thanks in advance.

Update: the previous response was so helpful. As I walked around pondering how NOT to see my values literally go up WITH the smoke, visiting stores to brainstorm a vessel or container that would trap values and let the incinerated garbage float away, I was puting off incinerating my powders. Knowing now about the addition of NaOH to keep values from volatilizing eith the chlorides is gold in itself. Thanks!!!


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## Geo (Jun 23, 2013)

you should read Hoke's book and learn how to use and maintain a stockpot. it should be acidic. adding sodium hydroxide will cause ALL metal to precipitate, even base metal. you want the base metal to stay in solution when you cement values out with copper. if you raise the PH too high, you will just be mixing all the metal back together.


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## Palladium (Jun 23, 2013)

Metals that won't normally dissolve into solution will do so when alloyed with other metals. Inquarting is an example of this.


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## au-artifax (Jun 23, 2013)

I did read Hoke's, but there is so much information in there that a lot of it doesn't sink in until you experience it. Even though she takes you through the familiarization steps and practices, other things don't stick because there is no prior knowledge or experience for the brain to reference it.

For now though, And I don't have the experiences to bring back from memory, after roasting my powder the glassware is coated with yellow powder and it stinks like burnt gunpowder used to with my black powder shotgun. I take it that is sulfur from the SMB. Where in the process do we normally rid the gold of the sulfur it attached to. Am I missing something? I can't seem to find anywhere in Hokes that says where the sulfur ends up. I don't want to throw in another metal compound when I am trying to refine the gold.

Or is the sulfur I am seeing normal AMD it usually ends up in the flux?

And thanks Geo and Palladium for your advice. I will keep re-reading and sooner or later it will click for me as it has for you. And thanks for your patience...you guys are great!


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## Geo (Jun 23, 2013)

what you are smelling is sulfur dioxide gas (SO2) gassing off from your solution. the sodium metabisulfite you add decomposes into salt and SO2 gas. the gas is what reduces the gold metal from solution. the salt is water soluble and will be removed with water rinses. WARNING : avoid inhaling SO2!

from wiki : Inhalation
Inhaling sulfur dioxide is associated with increased respiratory symptoms and disease, difficulty in breathing, and premature death.[22] In 2008, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists reduced the short-term exposure limit from 5 ppm to 0.25 ppm. The OSHA PEL is currently set at 5 ppm (13 mg/m3) time weighted average. NIOSH has set the IDLH at 100 ppm.


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## Palladium (Jun 24, 2013)

I seen a guy lean over a vessel and get a lung full of So2 gas on time. He laid on the floor kicking like a cock roach and turning blue in the face for about 5 mins. Cl gas ain't nothing to mess with either. You will taste both for some time to follow.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 24, 2013)

SO2 is like a fist punch. You know immediately, it's bad. Cl in contrast is more devious, it smells even good and fresh the first seconds. NOx - I've always been lucky and cautious enough not to try a nose of it or at least more than traces....and after what I've read in this forum, I am even more cautious today.



> powder shotgun



sounds more like a blend of SO2, *H2S *and/or *NOx*, SO2 alone smells not exactly like gunpowder, neither it is black powder, cellulose nitrate or both. Though I would expect SO2 AND NOx from your solution.

Black powder gives a reaction, that will form K2S for a short time, which, if traces go with the smoke, forms H2S with humidity.

And if you put organics like a piece of wood into a small probe of melted KNO3, there will also form some NOx.


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## butcher (Jun 24, 2013)

"After roasting my powder the glassware is coated with yellow powder and it stinks like burnt gunpowder"

It could be sulfur reduced to the yellow powder, if you have a powder of yellow sulfur after you roasted your powders, you did not complete the roasting process, sulfur will need the powders to be glowing red hot, and the crushed powders stirred and exposed to air, keeping the metal powders glowing red for as long as it takes to burn off previous acids, salts or chemicals like sulfur, which will be one of the last things to burn off of the metals powders as gases of SO2 and SO3.


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## steyr223 (Jun 24, 2013)

And still i am not recognized 

Ok maybe with all this talk about gun powder
and sulfur dioxide gas you guys,

"chemists and all"

missed something.

or
and i do apologise if i am the One. missing something 

but

Didn't he say. POTASSIUM CHLORATE 
I mean your talking about roasting, incinerating 
and volatility of metals 

shouldn't something be said as for potsssium
chlorate can be highly explosive

Now you all start talking about sulfer (HOLY 
TOLITO BATMAN) 


With my limited knowledge on this subject
i dare say another word as i might give the
future newbe a little more info that we all
try to protect to keep ourself safe

maybe someone with a better vocabulary can
tell the op these dangers better than i can

thanks steyr223 rob


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## solar_plasma (Jun 24, 2013)

chlorate? guess I have to read the thread again....

chlorate won't stay being chlorate in this mix, further chlorate needs something reducing (or a whole lotta energy) to get instable, but even if - it won't be enough to blow the room (since new processes always have to be tried in small amounts first, and ofcourse he has safety goggles on, when working with AR etc.

But ofcourse, chlorate although in small quantities is everything else then harmless. -personally, I would never use it in amounts more than 1 g, but thats because this is the amount, I am allowed to use it for sure.


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## steyr223 (Jun 25, 2013)

they solar
if you say it wont stay a chlorate in our mix
than i would have to believe you as i know from
reading your posts you are an info junkie. 
I myself do not have the kknowledge 

but

i beg to differ on rest

pottasium chlorate mixed with a certain powder, and
it makes little difference on the proportions, is not
unstable as you said
IT is extremely SENSITIVE, in fact many have lost
fingers while mixing to hard

a pinch (1/4 gram )on the garauge floor struck lightly
with a hammer will crack the cement and take the
hammer out of your hand 

this mix depending on ignition can be classed as a low
explosive not just a trapped propellent

steyr223 rob


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## solar_plasma (Jun 26, 2013)

> pottasium chlorate mixed with a certain powder



This is absolutely right. With certain materials it is very unstable and many people have lost more than a finger *while* mixing, depending on the quantity.

Just don't mix it with anything, unless you know, what you are going to do and you know, it is safe! 

When it is used *properly *for precipitation (again, know what and why before) it will react with some PGM ions, then it isn't chlorate anymore - that's what I meant. Nevertheless. you are right, chlorates can be extremely dangerous and should never be blended with anything, unless you* exactly know the process*. And ensure, it is allowed to you in your country. For example in my country it is very restricted, so personally I would only use it for lawful and legal educational purposes (which implicates *very small amounts*) in the school lab.


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## steyr223 (Jun 27, 2013)

hey soloar 
agreed

in the usa.back in 1979 or around that year i was
at the hight of my experimenting with such mixes
along with many others

(no terrorist...i ment no government activity back then)

i remember the day i was going to buy my first 
sample of potassium chlorate,.i was so disappointed 
they would only sell 3 1/2 grams max due to restrictions

i called 15 places and got a.hold of a place in my
city very close called "chemlab"
they said we got what you need in any quantity

it was on my new best friends for about 6 years
i was purchasing 5lb containers for $21.00
and the same for other stuff

steyr223 rob 

ahhh the good ole days


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## solar_plasma (Jun 27, 2013)

> ahhh the good ole days



:lol: I don't know....how many times we have only been lucky, when we were kids...I at least would not allow my kids any experiments other than absolutely harmless, if they want chemistry, they can learn it at school under safe conditions and guidiance


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## phillipcwhipple (Dec 12, 2019)

butcher said:


> The more we learn, The more we find we need to learn.



My Mother used to say that, and you know what she was right.


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