# Selling Platinum from Ore



## Anonymous (Nov 14, 2007)

This is a great forum. Thank you so much for providing it. I am recovering platinum from ore rather than scrap and I have a few questions that I am hoping some of the platinum experts here can answer. 

Basically, what I have is an ore that is very high in metallic platinum. I have a proprietary process for extracting it and I have found that I can make it precipitate by itself as PtCl6 without the use of ammonium chloride simply by keeping the concentration very high and adjusting the PH. Every observation I am able to make tells me that this is the same thing I get when I drop it with ammonium chloride, minus the ammonia. At this point I am very much out of money, except for the several ounces of this material I have gathered so far. I haven't actually even had any assays done on it yet. I just know that when I manage to hit some of it with my hydrogen torch without blowing it away it turns to bright platinum-looking metal on the edges. So my questions are:

1) Should I go ahead and get an assay done before looking for a buyer? If so, then what type and from what lab? Since I'm so low on funds I hate to pay for assays more times than necessary. 

2) Does anyone know where I can sell platinum sponge? The major refiners seem to want nothing to do with me when I tell them I am getting my Pt from ore rather than scrap.

3) I have considered trying to form it into ingots by doing lead fusions, but I barely know how to do a proper fire assay and I'm not sure how it works with such a high % of precious metal. Should I simply wrap my PtCl6 in lead foil, use litharge, fluxes, or none of the above? Any suggestions? :? 

Thank you,
Daniel


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## jimdoc (Nov 14, 2007)

Here is a link to action mining's lab service page;

http://actionmining.com/lab.html

They are in Oregon also, maybe they can help
you out. Jim


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## aflacglobal (Nov 14, 2007)

welcome to the forum goldigr.


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## blueduck (Nov 14, 2007)

I went to CM Hokes book to see just what ou might be up against..... shoot if you have a PT sponge and a hydrogen torch then you are set to make that button, or ingot....

She sez that you need a limestone crucible though to keep it from shattering from the excessive heat required to melt Pt. [1755C or 3191F] The H2 torch that she profiled in the book is capable of melting up to 100 ozt before need of going to something else. If you were to use acetylene, she says that it can combine with the Pt and you get a brittle Platinum carbide and the high heat of an Oxy-acetylene can also melt the crucible. page 294 Refining Precious Metal Wastes

Page 300.....


> Platinum that has been through the acid refinging is usually recovered as a sponge, sometimes black. The refiner does well, when burning the orange powder, to heat it until the sponge has contracted into a sort of clinker, so that it will not blow about under the flame. Some workers compress it firmly in a mold. Clean Pt sponge is pleasure to melt and is handled the same way as clean course filings. The black, however, being much more finely divided, must be handled with caution, a small very gentle flame being applied at first, until the powder on the surface has run together.



Once in a button, or ingot of size then you weigh it, and mark it as yourn and offer it to who ever is gonna buy it for them to drill it for assay and they weigh it and if you dont like their offer then they give it back to you.... and you dont pay for the assay and they pay you for the removed metal as I understand.... of course I am as new to this as butterfly emerging from its chrysalis on a sunny day..... everything is new to me and I have to read to fill in the cracks of information like anyone else..... 

I understand there is a place in South Africa [most likely the mine which produces Pt for the world market] that also will purchase the PT sponge without being melted together, but i have not pursued the information as I just dont have a sponge yet to peddle so such is just sitting there in the recesses of my brain waiting for a moment like this to spring out and say "ooooh ohhh ohhh, pick me....... I know the answer!" even if the answer is not complete.....

I hope what little i offer can be of a help, or leads to other questions and better answers or more discussion at least!

William
Central Idaho


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## Harold_V (Nov 15, 2007)

goldigr said:


> 1) Should I go ahead and get an assay done before looking for a buyer?



Assays for the platinum group are difficult to accomplish, and few assayers are versed in the process. Assuming you can find one that is able, it won't be cheap. That is a small consideration if, indeed, you have platinum. I have serious doubts. 

Why is it you haven't dissolved a sample and tested it with stannous chloride? Should you do so, test for iron while you're at it. Entirely possible that's what you're getting. If it's magnetic, go with that idea. 



> 2) Does anyone know where I can sell platinum sponge? The major refiners seem to want nothing to do with me when I tell them I am getting my Pt from ore rather than scrap.



Assuming you told me the same story, I'd likely have the same reaction. Understand I'm not trying to shoot holes in what you're doing, but something stinks. The US is not known for its platinum production. In your favor, it's known that native platinum has been found in Oregon, although in small amounts, and, I believe, finely divided. Not large nuggets, in other words. 

Can you answer a few questions? If so, can you tell me how much ore you process for a yield, and what that yield might be? 

Here's what's troubling me. Having already stated that the US is not a known platinum producer (usually only traces, such as the Kennecott Copper operation in Utah), you appear to be harvesting amounts that are detectable from, I assume, very small samples. Makes no sense. If there was such a high grade ore at your disposal, I'd question why seasoned pros haven't attached themselves to the material. 



> 3) I have considered trying to form it into ingots by doing lead fusions, but I barely know how to do a proper fire assay and I'm not sure how it works with such a high % of precious metal. Should I simply wrap my PtCl6 in lead foil, use litharge, fluxes, or none of the above? Any suggestions? :?



Sorry, I'm at a loss to understand why you'd use lead if you want ingots, but I am also not trained in assaying. I am experienced in pouring ingots in gold and silver, and have melted a few ounces of platinum. Unless you have access to an induction furnace, I suggest you lose the idea of pouring ingots, and even then your work will be cut out for you. The pouring temperature makes working with platinum exceedingly difficult. 

If you truly have platinum, you'll have no problems selling the sponge to various major refiners, but be prepared to get screwed, even if you have a fair amount. 

One major refiner, Johnson Matthey, is likely your very best place to deal with your production, but they won't do business with anyone but a registered business, much to my chagrin. Just a few years ago, when the price of platinum was in the $800 range, I sold more than 68 ounces of sponge, knowing it was not pure. It was an experience I won't soon forget, and I regret having done business with two refineries. Neither of them were honest in their dealings, and I'm not talking about losing $20, if you get my drift. 

Hope this helps.

Harold


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## Anonymous (Nov 15, 2007)

jimdoc said:


> Here is a link to action mining's lab service page;
> 
> http://actionmining.com/lab.html
> 
> ...



Thanks for the suggestion, Jim. I don't think they get into PGM's very much, but I'll keep them in mind.

Daniel


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## Anonymous (Nov 15, 2007)

blueduck said:


> I went to CM Hokes book to see just what ou might be up against..... shoot if you have a PT sponge and a hydrogen torch then you are set to make that button, or ingot....
> 
> 
> Hi William,
> ...


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## Anonymous (Nov 15, 2007)

Hi Harold,



Harold_V said:


> Why is it you haven't dissolved a sample and tested it with stannous chloride? Should you do so, test for iron while you're at it. Entirely possible that's what you're getting. If it's magnetic, go with that idea.



I have confirmed the Pt with SnCl but not the Fe. Can you tell me how that one works? Yes, my material is magnetic. That's why I too suspect some iron, and why I want to try the lead fusion/cupel process. Then, I hope I will end up with a marketable bead with nothing but other PM's as possible contaminants. That should put it in league with the rest of the scrap.



Harold_V said:


> The US is not known for its platinum production. In your favor, it's known that native platinum has been found in Oregon, although in small amounts, and, I believe, finely divided. Not large nuggets, in other words.



I believe the reason why the US is not known for PGM production is purely political. I believe it's definitely here in the US, in nuggets and in the finely divided state. It's not politically correct to acknowledge the existence of UFO's or natural cancer cures either. But just because the US refiners don't know how to assay for it that doesn't mean we aren't walking all over on it in certain parts of the western US.



Harold_V said:


> Can you answer a few questions? If so, can you tell me how much ore you process for a yield, and what that yield might be?



I'm sorry, but I cannot. I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs here, so I won't defend my own. I'm just asking for help on how to either form it into ingots or where to sell it in sponge form.



Harold_V said:


> The pouring temperature makes working with platinum exceedingly difficult.
> 
> If you truly have platinum, you'll have no problems selling the sponge to various major refiners, but be prepared to get screwed, even if you have a fair amount.
> 
> ...



Yes, these seem to be the big problems facing me. The temperature needed to melt it and selling it in the sponge form it is in now.

Thank you, Harold, for your thoughts. I do learn a lot from your posts.

Daniel


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## Harold_V (Nov 15, 2007)

goldigr said:


> I have confirmed the Pt with SnCl but not the Fe. Can you tell me how that one works?



Sorry, but I can not. If memory serves, there's a method in Hoke's book. If not, I found it in Rose's Metallurgy of Gold. It's been too many years for me to remember, but the test yields a wonderful dark blue---Prussian blue, in fact. I can't even recall the reagent necessary for the test ----something cyanate, I think. 

If your material is strongly attracted to a magnet, the test won't be necessary. You already know what you have----the only question that remains is does it contain any platinum? If so, how much?



> Yes, my material is magnetic. That's why I too suspect some iron, and why I want to try the lead fusion/cupel process. Then, I hope I will end up with a marketable bead with nothing but other PM's as possible contaminants. That should put it in league with the rest of the scrap.



So then, I can conclude that the purpose is for purification (elimination of base metals), not for pouring an ingot. That makes sense. 



> I believe the reason why the US is not known for PGM production is purely political. I believe it's definitely here in the US, in nuggets and in the finely divided state. It's not politically correct to acknowledge the existence of UFO's



That's a no-brainer. Show me one and it's a done deal. Like the abominable snow man-----no one has been able thus far. Pretty good chance that's because no such thing exists. Some people can't separate their hopes and dreams from reality. I'm a man of science, and believe only things that can be proven. 



> or natural cancer cures either.



I'm not sure where you're going with that one. Cancer is known to go into remission, often with no logical explanation. Natural cure? Certainly possible, but where's the evidence? Only when it can be duplicated with consistency would it, or any, cure be accepted. Some even believe in the power of prayer. That's beyond the scope of this forum, and should not become the focus, but as I said above, I am a man of science. I'm not easily convinced of the supernatural. 



> But just because the US refiners don't know how to assay for it that doesn't mean we aren't walking all over on it in certain parts of the western US.



I agree, and have already alluded to the fact that it *is* known to exist in Oregon. The problem is that it exists in minute quantities, not commercially viable. To assume that the government tries to keep that information away from the good people of the US makes little sense. What possible reason would there be? Don't you think that just like people endlessly try to legalize pot that there would be at least a small group of people making waves over something that had the potential to make one endlessly wealthy, and all legally? What does make sense is that it isn't commercially viable. You should allow some of these thoughts to enter your world-----more or less to keep you in focus. You may very well be chasing your tail. 

Let me give you an example. I have processed sand taken from the southern deserts of the US-----southern Utah, Northern Arizona, New Mexico, -------all of which give up traces of silver, palladium and gold. It's been a while since I did my work (early 80's), and my memory is dim, but it could have also yielded miniscule traces of platinum. Problem is------there's not enough to make it viable----not with today's technology. I expect your situation is much the same. I don't doubt you've found traces of platinum, but don't quit your day job.

The Carlin operation is recovering gold from concentrations as low as .10 oz/ton, and was doing so when gold was at an all-time low in the 90's. Using that operation as an example, it's clear to me that the level of concentration in the sand must be very low. 



> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > Can you answer a few questions? If so, can you tell me how much ore you process for a yield, and what that yield might be?
> ...



Understand that being in ingot form or sponge won't make any difference in marketing the material, assuming it really is platinum. Fact is, a refinery has much better luck reprocessing sponge than solids-----it dissolves so much easier. The real problem you have is that these refiners believe something that you refuse to accept. You don't have platinum-----you have iron. They aren't in the iron business. 

I'm not clear if you can not, or you refuse to do so. If it's the latter, my time here is finished. Here's why. What you have proposed, thus far, is against everything I've learned in my years of refining. I had a keen interest in mining ventures, and had processed ores on a couple occasions. There are journals published that detail known deposits, and, to my knowledge, there are no known conspiracies that are attempting to keep people in the dark about huge platinum deposits. The likelihood that you have platinum extracted from ores is very small, but the chance of having considerable iron is very large. I've experienced that very thing on many occasions in working with a prospector from my home town. Being pure, iron melts at much higher temps than does cast iron, and in many ways looks like platinum to the untrained eye. It can even be easily confused by a spectrograph. You have already disclosed your material is magnetic. That in itself should be sending up a huge red flag for you. The next thing that should concern you is the lack of weight. Platinum is heavier than gold, and is very conspicuous when held. Melt a button and weigh it . If you have a button that weighs like copper, size for size, your chance of having much platinum is not good. 

Again, I'm not trying to toss cold water on your project, I'm simply trying to use good judgment, not emotions, which can easily cloud your mind. We all want to think we'll win the lottery------but few do. 

With a bit of luck GSP may be able to give you some pointers on running that lead fusion/ cupel process. He has far more experience in that department than I could hope to acquire. Lou, too, may have some pointers for you. The man is a chemist and appears to be very knowledgeable in the ways of precious metals. He may even set me straight where I am misguided. Who knows! I've been known to be wrong, and will willingly admit my errors. I hope you're equally as willing, assuming you have been misguided. 

Harold


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## lazersteve (Nov 15, 2007)

Here's a link to some iron test strips:

Iron Testing Strips

A little warm HCl should get the iron into solution readily for testing.

The proper pH may be required for these strips to work properly. Check with the manufacturer.


Steve


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## loco (Nov 15, 2007)

being optimistic in any case I'd be courious what you find goldigr when you have it assayed. If you would report back. In any case I wish ya luck.


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## Anonymous (Nov 15, 2007)

Hi Harold,



Harold_V said:


> The likelihood that you have platinum extracted from ores is very small, but the chance of having considerable iron is very large.



What I have is a very large % of Pt with a little bit of iron in it. I think I just figured out where the iron is getting into the mix and I know how to fix that problem.



Harold_V said:


> Again, I'm not trying to toss cold water on your project, I'm simply trying to use good judgment, not emotions, which can easily cloud your mind.



Again, I'm not here to defend my beliefs, so the cold water doesn't bother me. But I'm not going to try to address all your points either because I have seen others offer some of the same answers here in the past and you threw cold water on them too. Whatever I say to you is probably not going to change your mind and is only going to take my valuable time away from the project I came here asking for help with in the first place.

Thanks again for the thoughts,

Daniel


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## Harold_V (Nov 15, 2007)

goldigr said:


> Hi Harold,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh huh! 

And you know that how?



> Again, I'm not here to defend my beliefs, so the cold water doesn't bother me. But I'm not going to try to address all your points either because I have seen others offer some of the same answers here in the past and you threw cold water on them too.



If you're waiting for me to apologize for good sense, not being delusional, and having experience in refining, you're wasting your time. Anyone that has been discouraged by my comments should stand back and take a serious look at their objective. As much as you may not like the message, there's something of substance that warrants at least a second glance. I have nothing to gain by dispensing misinformation, and I, for damned sure, am not caught up in thinking the whole world is conspiring against me-----or that I'm clever and can do things that no one else can. 



> Whatever I say to you is probably not going to change your mind and is only going to take my valuable time away from the project I came here asking for help with in the first place.



Understood! 

Knock yourself out! I wish you nothing but the best. 

Since posting my remarks, I realize that you're much more clever than major mills, smelters and refiners, and have figured ways to get around the problems of processing ores that have little or no platinum content---but you get it out anyway. I should have realized that when you started talking about flying saucers. 

When all of this comes into focus for you, *and it will*, you may come to realize that I was trying to help you through a situation in which you likely had misinterpreted some of your results. Platinum precipitating without assistance should have been the first clue. Instead of showing gratitude, it appears your choice is to kill the messenger. 

Right now, I must get this posted so I can go find my beanie with the propeller on top. I fear I'm out of uniform. 

Harold


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## Lino1406 (Nov 16, 2007)

I would try this: mix the red
material in vineager, about 10%.
Submerge a Zinc stick in it.
If you get black powder, heat it 
with HCl, that will dissolve the
iron (if any).
Lino1406


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## Anonymous (Nov 16, 2007)

Harold_V said:


> When all of this comes into focus for you, *and it will*, you may come to realize that I was trying to help you through a situation in which you likely had misinterpreted some of your results. Platinum precipitating without assistance should have been the first clue. Instead of showing gratitude, it appears your choice is to kill the messenger.
> 
> Right now, I must get this posted so I can go find my beanie with the propeller on top. I fear I'm out of uniform.
> 
> Harold



Hey, Harold. I do apologize to you if my straight forwardness looked like an insult to your knowledge. I don't mean it that way at all. As I said, I learn a great deal from your posts. I just think you shut yourself off from a lot of good knowledge that could enhance what you already know. You say you are a man of science, but I would suggest that you cease to be such when you refuse to let go of your old paradigm long enough to even look at a new one. But that is your personal choice and I respect it.

Neophyte that I am, I'm not afraid to suggest that you might learn something from my posts too. Hoping that your skepticism just might come from an actual desire to know if some of the things I am saying are true or not, I have a little experiment at the end of this post that you, or anyone else, can try to prove it to yourself. 

Remember when you posted the following on Oct. 8th on the Aqua Regia/Sub Zero forum about a chemical called "T-6":
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny-----as slick as that is, you'd think he'd be busy recovering all that gold instead of trying to screw people out of $20. 

You want my opinion? The only thing hidden is that dude's intelligence. If there's enough gold in salt to recover, it would show in an assay. 


Here's a simple rule that will keep you out of trouble: 

If a sample won't fire assay, regardless of the grandiose claims of a promoter, it's highly unlikely it contains any values. 

Harold 
------------------------------------------------------------

Did you ever bother to look at any of the links GSP provided to find out what T-6 is and how it works? If all you know about is recovering values from scrap then it may not mean much to you. But in the natural world PGM's are most plentiful in such a finely divided and complexed state that their chemistry is more organic than inorganic. So you are right in saying that you can't recover it economically, IF you are expecting it to act like the PGM's you get from scrap. But the natural world isn't made out of manmade scrap - yet. 

So if you want to recover new PGM's you have to learn how to meet nature on her own terms instead of expecting her to come meet you on yours. Does that make sense to you so far? Nature is organic. Most of the PGM's in most of the world are organically bound. I think the proper term for this particular branch of chemistry is "Organotransition Metal Chemistry". Refiners are inorganic chemists. Each of these 2 branches of chemistry may not realize that the other exists, but he/she who bothers to learn them both is way ahead of the game when it comes to this subject.

T-6 is an organic carbon ring molecule that has a very strong affinity for high-valent T-metal cations. That's why it makes such an effective cleanup agent for heavy metal polution. The humic substances in the soils and water grab the heavy metal ions and try to complex them so that plants can eventually use them. The T-6 has a strong enough covalent affinity for PM's to grab a large % of those ions away from the humic substances in such a way that they can begin to form metal-metal bonds. In nature micro-organisms are responsible for the formation of most of the metal-metal bonds that convert these organic PGM's to placer and vein deposits. In the new paradigm of PM mining the same thing can be done with chemicals like T-6.

So, you said your opinion of Mike at GoldMineWorld is, "The only thing hidden is that dude's intelligence", and you say that he is, "...trying to screw people out of $20." Would you rather stand by those statements, or see for yourself how plentiful the PGM's are by swallowing a little of that pride and actually trying it out for yourself?

This will be the first time I have ever offered this process publicly. It has nothing to do with how I am recovering platinum now, so I might as well give it away to whoever can make good use of it rather than just put it on the shelf to collect dust. It is not all that unique anyway. It mostly reflects the kind of information that Mike sells in his $20. reports. So for those who need a step-by-step guide and don't want to buy any of his reports, here is one from me for free:

1) Go to: http://www.goldmineworld.net/mainmenu.html and order 
5 square feet of his carbon fabric for $35.; and his 2oz sample bottle of T-6 for $7.50. His web site say the shipping is free.

2) Cut off about 1 square foot of the fabric and tie it to some kind of an anchor with strong wire or string so that you can leave it in a creek for a week without losing it. If the water is very swift try to find a place where the fabric won't bounce against rocks too much. Otherwise you might just find shreds left on your string when you go to retrieve it. The fabric is a very fragile carbon fiber felt. Spring, summer and fall are the best times for this but winter will work if you can manage not to lose it. The best creeks are the ones that are closest to springs and lode bearing mountains, but even a major river should work. There are gold and/or PGM's in all of them.

3) Now boil this piece of fabric in about a gallon of sodium hydroxide and water at PH 11 to 12 for an hour. The liquid should turn a very dark brown from the humic acid being leached. For this initial experiment you can wring the solution out ot the fabric after it cools, wearing rubber gloves and eye protection, of course. This will pretty well trash that piece of fabric in the name of science, but if you decide to go large scale later there are ways to make the fabric last much longer.

4) Filter any sand or debris out with a coffee filter.

5) Stir in 1/2 oz of the T-6 and let it soak for a few minutes.

6) Titrate down with HCl until a lot of precipitate forms. This should be somewhere between about PH 6 and PH 8. Filter that precipitate out and save it. 

7) Add another 1/2 oz of T-6 to the liquid and titrate down with HCl again to about PH 1. Let it soak here for a few minutes. Some precipitate may be trying to fall out here too. This is likely to be humic acid that has already been stripped of it's PGM's by the T-6 so just ignore it.

8) Titrate back up to wherever you get the most precipitate again. It will probably be somewhere between PH 7 and PH 9. Filter out the precipitate and add it to what you saved in step 6.

9) Rinse the combined precipitate several times with distilled water in a double coffee filter.

10) Dry the paper coffee filter with the precipitate on it in an old pan at about 225 f. 

11) Scrape off as much of the dried precipitate as practical and add it to a suitable clay crucible for smelting at 2000f. (Alternatively, just add the whole paper filter with the material.)

12) GoldmineWorld's suggested house flux is: 40 parts borax, 5 parts soda ash, 1 part flour, 1 part silica sand, and a silver blank as a collector. The suggested hold time at 2000f is 3 hours, but I get very good results at just 1 hour.

13) Pour the melt into a cone shaped mold so that the metals settle in the point at the bottom. 

14) After it has cooled break the slag away and weigh the bead. I always lose a lot of silver, probably because my furnace gets too hot, so don't assume that the values you have collected can by determined by weighing the raw bead alone.

15) Part the bead with hot 50% nitric acid to dissolve the silver plus any lead, copper or palladium you might have collected. Drop the Ag and Pd as per the directions on Steve's web site.

16) Treat the solids left over with cold aqua regia to dissolve any gold collected.

17) Now dry and weigh the solids that are left. This is your PGM content, plus, probably, some minor contaminants. Start parting them if you know how. I have seen enough values to definitely look profitable IF the problems I am having now of assaying and selling them can be surmounted. Especially if you can sell the rhodium.

Realize that this is not a quantitative assay because there is no practical way to determine by what ends up on the piece of fabric how much of the PGM's in a given waterway. Also, there are endless variations in the way this experiment can be performed that suggest that no single method is going to get a fair representation of all the PM's in the water. Also, you can repeat the leaching of the fabric several times and still get good yields each time, before you have to put it back in the water to collect again. This experiment should, however, prove to the average skeptic that the PGM's are ubiquitous and abundant all over my state of Oregon, and, from what I hear from others, most likely in nearly every waterway in the world. After you prove this one to yourself, Harold, you'll want to reexamine your skepticism about gold and PGM's being in sea salt.

Daniel


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## Anonymous (Nov 16, 2007)

Lino1406 said:


> I would try this: mix the red
> material in vineager, about 10%.
> Submerge a Zinc stick in it.
> If you get black powder, heat it
> ...



Hi Lino,

Thanks for the suggestion. I've never heard that one before. I just might try that. Where did you learn it? To clarify, do you heat just the black powder with HCl or all of the red material if the zinc test shows a black powder?

Daniel


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## Lino1406 (Nov 16, 2007)

Hello,
This is from personal experience, a lot of which
I do. To be more specific, take a sample of
the described assay, submerge the Zinc and
when activity is finished, do the HCl heating
(so as to be sure that all PtClx, if present, has been
transformed).
Lino1406


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## lazersteve (Nov 16, 2007)

Daniel,

I would like to propose that you perform a baseline test of your process as outlined above on a similar fabric soaked and treated as described in a bath tub for an equal amount of time. 

This may seem ridiculous at first glance, but it will provide you with a baseline blank reaction for your real world test. If you notice similar results with the bath water, odds are you are not seeing anything other than the normal results produced from your process. 

Without first knowing what a blank test process looks like, it is very difficult to determine what a positive test looks like.

When you are certain the results are what you think they are then you should weigh the unknown material produced and calculate it's maximum value (if it where 100% platinum or rhodium ) to determine if the process produces a positive profit at maximum yields. Actual yield percentages will be much lower in reality.

Don't forget to include your material, shipping, and labor costs when assessing the profit margins. 


Steve


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## Anonymous (Nov 16, 2007)

lazersteve said:


> Daniel,
> 
> I would like to propose that you perform a baseline test of your process as outlined above on a similar fabric soaked and treated as described in a bath tub for an equal amount of time.



Hi Steve,

Checking baseline is a great idea. But in my area the level of PGM's in the tap water is high too. You probably wouldn't pick up a measureable amount in a bathtub because that is a miniscule amount of water compared to what the fabric would be exposed to in a flowing creek. In theory I suppose you could recover a little PGM's from the fabric if you really shredded it because it is made from coal tar. But I have leached a brand new piece of fabric before as a baselinbe test and gotten nothing. This is compared to an average yield of about 1/2 oz of PGM's per week in the creeks I use.

Daniel


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## blueduck (Nov 16, 2007)

A local miner was collecting the same type of waterborne microscopic particles from a stream a few miles from here about 20 years back, his assay at the time showed gold, and 4 of the 6 PGM's all suspended in the water.

his problem like anyone else was being able to collect enough quantity to recover effectively and he tried woodchips [which to my thinking had to much oil in them] and cinders [which had the surface area but allowed to much to just pass on by and the trucking cost of getting them here and shipping them to a an assay office nearly broke him]. He ended up getting an article in the Smithsonian magazine for his discovery and methods of recovery and then due to health problems he sold his cabin and claim on the creek to someone who was not as interested in the precious metal recovery.... he also tried using ozone to oxidize the organic material out of the mix and is where i became acquainted with the use of ozone for health reasons, this was around the early 1990's and the old fella is still kickin [I used to run hounds with his kids] Anyway I understand your method of discovery, and your dilemma. Ive seen it under a microscope and jewelers loup even what you are probably recovering......

The biggest hurdle you are going to have to get past is the ability to get enough metals to make it feasible to get rid of the organic material that also collects [which appears that may be feasible with the T-6 you pprofile and i am not familiar with]. In the streams of Central Idaho a person can pan and find Pt and if a nugget is found then there is an ore body of some type in the near vicinity, the problem is if it is anyting like what is in South Africa it take many tons of ore to produce and ounce and is not economical to recover yet. Ive found rare earth in the streams around these part in my panning efforts, but nothing in sufficient quantity to get excited about and i though never followed the material to the source [cause i didnt know what it was at the time] I know where about it lays at now..... [like all the old prospectors of old, it was in getting rich as much as it was the adventure of finding the new material and its source, besides my wife would divorce me if i just went out and started playing in the mountains ALL the time and just prospected].

I think you should get some raw material together and go visit Harold for a long weekend and show him your process and let him see what you claim and are doing.... it may prove profitable and very much taking the time to do so [yes i seen you said you are like most of us less than broke and in need of help, so the other option is just plugging along and taking extraordinary notes and posting the whole process for someone else to help you in case you missed an obvious step].

And it would not hurt to call action mining and talk to the head honcho there, he has been around a long time in the industry and might be able to help on the assay end of things as far as questions go.....

William
Central Idaho


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## Anonymous (Nov 16, 2007)

blueduck said:


> I think you should get some raw material together and go visit Harold for a long weekend and show him your process and let him see what you claim and are doing.... it may prove profitable and very much taking the time to do so [yes i seen you said you are like most of us less than broke and in need of help, so the other option is just plugging along and taking extraordinary notes and posting the whole process for someone else to help you in case you missed an obvious step].
> 
> And it would not hurt to call action mining and talk to the head honcho there, he has been around a long time in the industry and might be able to help on the assay end of things as far as questions go.....
> 
> ...



Hi William,

Good stories. And all too familiar. I would go compare notes on this with you or Harold or any seriously interested person within a day's drive AFTER I get past my present money crunch. But for now I have already spent more time talking about this topic than I had intended to. There is no shortage of creek water to go after, for anyone who feels inspired to try this. For those who want the evidence brought to them I guess they will have to wait for someone else to do that.

I paid a visit to the Action Mining guy 7 or 8 years ago to talk about PGM's and I don't remember that he even knew much about them. But back then I didn't either. So it could be a different guy now, or, knowing the right questions to ask now, I might get the good advice you are suggesting. I will try to follow up on that when I get a chance. Thanks.

Daniel


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## Irons (Nov 17, 2007)

There's a very good reason that PGM particles remain suspended in Water.

The Platinum Group Metals have a very high affinity for Hydrogen. This affinity causes the metal particles to interact with an bond to the Hydrogen atoms in Water. This reaction causes the Water molecules to surround the PGM articles and form a superparticle with an apparent low Specific Gravity that stays in suspension.

This is why trying to pan fine PGM's is a waste of time unless the PGMs are of sufficient size to negate the bonding phenomenon and is another reason why PGMs are often overlooked.


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## DarkspARCS (Dec 10, 2019)

Greetings to the Forum, It has been awhile since Ive posted here, myself controlling a formerly patented mine here in Southern Nevada that possesses some of the most marvelous ore types one can hope for regards precious metal (and especially PGM values, of which the ores Ive tested in the past both hydrometallurgically as well as pyrometallurgically provides a strong platinum presence). Only problems Im having with operating that Im having are with the fact that all of these ores are polymetallic replacement deposits containing various amounts of other interfering metals such as lead, arsenic, bismuth, and mercury.

A solid scientific process has been difficult to acquire so Ive stagnated on my continuation with exploratory work on the mine...

One day not long ago I happened to by chance review the prices of noble metals and observed several of the pgm class metals like palladium and rhodium skyrocket since the last time Id done any exploratory work on the mine's ores.

I am currently part of a small team of 2nd generation mining interests that have grown up in the midst of the gold boom that happened in Manhattan, Nevada as their father was Anthony C. Selig... Who at one time owned 259 gold mines in the region such as the Dixie-Comstock mines in the Dixie Valley, the WhiteCaps mines in Manhattan, and the Manhattan Mill site.

Anyway, when I reviewed those metal prices I went kinda nuts... Rhodium was at the time $6000.00 an ounce. I was like "I have to locate some Rhodium! Anyone not exploring for Rhodium right now is crazy!..."

Needless to say this mentality caused me to excuse myself from the Manhattan Survey and do some research. What I discovered was that the location my stagnant mine is located at, outside of the Boss mine, suddenly was jumping off with new discoveries of PGM ores located on the tailings piles of several mines all around mine... One of which declared they discovered their polymetallics contained PGE alloys containing 4 separate PGMs (platinum, palladium, rhenium, and Rhodoium!)

I was like... Rodium !!... So guess who went back to paying attention to his mine?... I had renewed funding for some further exploratory testing... Yet upon calling my former xrf service he told me he had gone out of business. I got a major break however when I opted to contact several metals brokers, as one of them, who normally works as the middle man between pm scrap sellers and refinery, went an extra step for me out of the goodness of their heart and offered xrf testing FOR FREE...

 OH YEAH BABY!... time for action.

To make this already long story shorter yes. .. I ended up analyzing 12 separate ore types from my mine Id not had the opportunity of testing before.

Here are the results. Obviously at this point Im back and continuing to research the metallurgy of PGMs... As, yes... I found my Rhodium. It was right in front of my nose !!!


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## DarkspARCS (Dec 10, 2019)

As is noted... Um yeah. EUREKA!... 

I have other xrf reads... Im keeping those close to the chest. Yeah, as if these two weren't good enough... Ive got reads that are tier 1, world class totals... Totals you would expect to find in South Africa lol. I have owned this mine for 7 years now... Where have I been?... Looking at the wrong ore body ... I guess.

This discovery actually is two untouched rock outcrops on the surface of the hill above my mine entrance... Which I determined to be fossil epithermal hot springs. The formations are both small, green rock, and barely discernable as such due to solar scoring turning them black... Yes, those were an analysis of oxidized surface ores. The values will increase the further down they go.

In the past, I had run into the same issue that Harold has regards the U.S. not being known as a platinum producer. My location possesses Sperrylites embedded within a huge kaolin deposit but too, the plumbojarosite ore body that runs adjacent to that kaolinite lense is rich in pgms as well as gold values. While seeking venture capital investment one metallurgist point blank told me that gold and platinum do not form together that it wasnt possible. I guess thats why hes a metallurgist and Im a geologist, because its a well known fact that nickel-iron-copper deposits usually contain gold and platinum values. This discovery however for me takes the cake. 

I have to inform Harold that the U.S. actually is a known pgm producer with its Stillwater, Montana formation which rivals South Africa, as well as the Boss mine, which has been a known platinum/ palladium producer since 1915... And still is today. And now... There's me.

Im back, looking for more education from the experts like Harold, laser steve, Irons, heck... All you old timers here lol. You are great people doing great things. Im hoping you can truly assist me in understanding the processes surrounding pgm metallurgy and discover a cost effective method of working this ore.

While I understand that this analysis isnt a set in stone probative result... It does possess possibilities lol... I did the math, and matched it to current prices... Im off to the archives!...


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## Lou (Dec 10, 2019)

I would settle down, as that XRF results is probably about as good as Charmin without knowing who the assayer is, what standards he used, what type of XRF it is, and about thirty other details that make it from "ooh my XRF just crapped out results that say I have millions of millions of dollars" to "oh, my XRF is FULL OF LIES"


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## kurtak (Dec 11, 2019)

Lou said:


> I would settle down, as that XRF results is probably about as good as Charmin without knowing who the assayer is, what standards he used, what type of XRF it is, and about thirty other details that make it from "ooh my XRF just crapped out results that say I have millions of millions of dollars" to "oh, my XRF is FULL OF LIES"



What Lou said :!: :!: :!: 

Two examples of an XRF telling LIES

When I went to England earlier this year & spent a week with Jon (& Deano, Nick, Pat, Goran) in Jon's lab - Goran brought a piece of Arsenic ore with him --- we tested the arsenic ore with Jon's XRF - the XRF did NOT see the arsenic "at all" - but instead saw the arsenic as Iridium (so instead of being 70% arsenic the XRF said it was 70% Iridium)

Then - years ago when I melted my first gold button I took it to a scrap yard to have it tested with their XRF to see how pure my first gold button was - the XRF said it was not gold at all but instead said it was tungsten

Bottom line - I would not trust those XRF reading "at all" --- the only way I would trust those XRF reading is to have a sample of that ore sent off to an assay lab - "that can test for those metals" - & tell them to "test for those metals" --- other wise you are likely to go chasing after (as Lou said) LIES

Kurt


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## DarkspARCS (Dec 11, 2019)

Copy that gents! I have had similar issues with xrf reads in the past. I discovered that both the elements sulphur AND arsenic refract accurate reads on certain noble metals. Sulphur for example refracts PGE reads turning them instead into chromium and vanadium reads...while arsenic will refract reads of gold into tungsten. Being that these are surface ore reads there was very little to no sulphur in the rock... Therefore an abundant exposure of pgm... as well a breakdown regards the types of pge.. And as can clearly be seen there is a small amount of arsenic however it was not enough to refract a gold value.

Still... You gentlemen are right, an assay if the 4 surface area ores I had scanned need an assay by fire. Perhaps even electrolytic assays accompanying the fire assays. Ive still got my notes on the scientific processes deployed back when I was working the sulphuric ores from this mine, which provided high value results regards gold and pgm... 500 opt Au/ pgm on the auriferous plumbojarosite close to 300 opt Au/ pgm on the auriferous chalcopyrites.

I did not have an opportunity to part the Au/ pgm values because it was at that time the metallurgist I was working with started ripping me off... Over a half ton of ore. Im still reeling from that loss today... So much more could have been accomplished.

So as you can see, assays have been performed on ores located directly underneath the two ores I had tested recently, within the underground mine locations. Yes, considerably different ores to be sure as they were supergene polymetallic ores high in sulphur content which I had to roast first. All the same their assay results COMPARE with these XRF reads... With the grand exception that now I have the breakdown if pge types inclusive... Rhodium exposing itself as abundant and that being my target. 

Exciting. =)

Ive reviewed several patents and have been attempting to discover Rhodium based results on these forums regards electrolytic process.

As a recap... Here are some of the original assay results showing the Au/ pge buttons I was dropping on 100 gram assay samples just to show that what Ive stated here isnt a bunch of hoopla...


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