# My Yuletide Logs (a work-in-progress)



## 10wt_Percent (Dec 14, 2014)

consist primarily of pins and e-bars. They are not registering on the local jeweler's bench-xrf unit (for Au) ... not sure what to make of this as they most definitely contain Au (if only from the plated pins). 
Bad or low resolution xrf unit - is my guess. The logs should be registering in around 1K .. it's gots to be. 

n.b. No fulmination (excessive fuming) was noted on melting. 

will update (probably post holidays) re: second opinion on Au content

thanks for sharin (in this) -- Happy Holidays!


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## MarcoP (Dec 14, 2014)

1K is about 4%, and I'm convinced that Au content in melted pins does not exceed 0.1%, maybe even 0.01% which is probably why it doesn't register on XRF?


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 14, 2014)

well that's somewhat less-than-encouraging @ .01wt%


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## necromancer (Dec 14, 2014)

that's $100,000.00 in ebay gold :idea:


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## MarcoP (Dec 14, 2014)

It all also depends on the type of the pins since some have tick plating while others are flash plated. Do you know the original material?

Some more reading and I realized I might have been too low on the yield, again depending on the feed stock, you may get up to 1% yield (#ref http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21555&p=222542&hilit=melted+pins#p222544) and the more economical way, at this point, is to put them into your stock pot unless you want to sell the lot.



necromancer said:


> that's $100,000.00 in ebay gold :idea:


Yeah it would light up someone eyes :lol:


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## samuel-a (Dec 14, 2014)

0.1% is around the ballpark...


What is the purpose of melting the pins?


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## Palladium (Dec 14, 2014)

necromancer said:


> that's $100,000.00 in ebay gold :idea:



Up for auction : Dore bars that were recovered from an abandoned mine in NV. Not sure of the metal content, but mine produced gold as well as silver so bars are sold as is for metal recovery. My loss is your gain. :mrgreen:


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 14, 2014)

not sure why you'd post your dore bar auction in my posting Palladium. Was it something I said? 

As for why melt the pins? I scorified the melts a bit to lower the zinc signature. That appeared to work ok. 

I like the cylindrical form-factor as well. Easy storage - easy handling. 

Thanks for viewing.


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## galenrog (Dec 14, 2014)

Palladium was being sarcastic. The question remains: Why make these bars at all? Seems pointless to me. If the material is destined to the stock pot, first making bars is a waste of labor and resources. If simply to have conversation pieces that may look pretty, my wife definitely thinks gold bars are prettier than mixed base metals.


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## necromancer (Dec 14, 2014)

10wt_Percent said:


> not sure why you'd post your dore bar auction in my posting Palladium. Was it something I said?
> 
> As for why melt the pins? I scorified the melts a bit to lower the zinc signature. That appeared to work ok.
> 
> ...




jokes in black & white don't go to well with Torontonians. (i was born and raised in toronto)


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 14, 2014)

I like my cylinders ... I've been weight-training with them .. they work great! I'm not kidding and I'magonna keep makin em (Imakeep pumpin em out like Tim Horton's breakfast sausages). Is that ok with you guys? 

Sorry if I hit a cylindrical nerve-ending.


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## necromancer (Dec 14, 2014)

now that's not sarcasm.


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 14, 2014)

Why'd the chicken cross the road? To put as much distance between itself and the dreaded Yuletide cylinders -- as humanly possible. :shock:


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## necromancer (Dec 14, 2014)

very nice, i guess we will wait until upper management drops by.


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 14, 2014)

I was hoping they would have dropped by earlier. Do me a favour necromancer .. stay outta my doghouse .. I'll stay out of yours.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 15, 2014)

I think you hit a nerve with melting the pins. There is a scam going on ebay with people selling "gold drops" made by melting pins and hyping the content to drive the prices up. It's been discussed on the forum several times.
The problem with melting pins is that it makes it impossible to know what the content is. For all we know your logs could be made up of partially plated pins or even plain brass. It also makes it harder to refine and get the gold out. If you had left it as pins you could always have used a reverse plating cell to remove the gold, now it's mixed in with the base metal. Even if you would dissolve the pins you would have foils and pieces of gold which are easy to collect compared to the fine mud that you would get from dissolving the logs.

If you like to keep your pins like brass logs, fine, that's up to you and I don't care. But don't come complaining when you want to refine it, then this thread will come back and bite you in the rear.

I would guess your gold content would be somewhere between 0 and 1 g/kg.

By the way, what is e-bars?

Göran


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## Harold_V (Dec 15, 2014)

What one does with their pins is their own business. However, the wisdom offered by Göran should not be dismissed. Once melted, processing such low grade material is difficult, and for more than one reason. A couple things to consider is that the finely divided gold may manifest itself as a colloid, and the volume of acid required to part the resulting alloy is quite voluminous. Such material is far better when stripped, so the end result is scrap that can be sold, with far less toxic waste generated in the extraction process. 

This is directed at anyone and everyone, not anyone specifically:

Knock off the smart remarks. If you can't say something constructive, without offending others,_* don't post*_. If you must offer an opinion, do it mannerly.

Harold


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 15, 2014)

I wasn't planning on employing dangerous acids etc ... I just wanted to show you my work-to-date.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 15, 2014)

10wt_Percent said:


> I wasn't planning on employing dangerous acids etc ... I just wanted to show you my work-to-date.


Now you've got about 22 pounds of brass with about $400-$1600 worth of gold tied up in it, assuming it was all pins. I don't see any "work" having been done. Quite the opposite - you created more work. If you ever decide you need that money, you will definitely need a dangerous acid.


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 15, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> you will definitely need a dangerous acid.



maybe -- maybe not! I'm thinking outside the box on this one. We'll see what the new year brings. I've got some parts on order. I think I have enough feed-stock for proof-of-concept purposes. Yepp.


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## nickvc (Dec 15, 2014)

What you have created is a mess that will cause you many many headaches to recover the gold let alone refine it, by melting your pins you have alloys of copper, zinc and even worse tin which if you care to read about tin in solution it will have you spinning your wheels for weeks or possibly even months.
All refining takes acids or bases both of which have their own inherent dangers and you now will have to use much more chemicals,time and costs to recover what little in values you have.
Before spending money and time that could be wasted post what process you are thinking of, we have some of the finest minds in the world for recovery and refining here on the forum that can be helpful if you have the right attitude and are willing to be led in the right direction.


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 15, 2014)

you know what I was thinkin .. 

it costs money to employ XRF .. the unit is good for a thousand measurements or so and then (it) has to go in for a factory-recalibration.

By logifying my e-scrap and ensuring a good homogeneous mix ... I can get by with a single (reasonably representative) XRF assessment per log.

Now if you wanted to sell "sliced log" on eBay you can/could provide a guaranteed analysis -- and feel confident of your wares.

That's one good reason for logification. There are others.


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## samuel-a (Dec 15, 2014)

10wt_Percent ,

Would you be willing to share a photo of your setup (furnace, molds etc'...) ?


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 15, 2014)

Drill a bar and use XRF on the drillings.


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## justinhcase (Dec 15, 2014)

Some one is going to start making up such bars form good stock and start selling them on ebay.
Why use pins at all if you can get some one who is misinformed to pay you over a hundred time's the value for your product.
A good refiner offers an efficient route for value to be processed to market,he is content to extract his 10-20% tole for the service.
because he is not greedy and provides a valuable service people know they are best served by giving him there custom.
By presenting your product in a manner that is known to cause inexperienced traders problems while maximize your own profit ,I feel your intent is to make an unfair profit from what little precious metal you posses.
The only honest and serviceable out let I can see for what you have produced would be to find a copper refiner and hope he will pay you for stock he can sweeten his own dore bar with.
If you have enough they should pay you a good % of spot but you should not try to get more out of your metal than is there, unless you can make some nice jewelery. 
Just my half penny but it is better to have 1% of one thousand deals than 100% of one(For the use of the example all deals are of equal value)


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 15, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> Now you've got about 22 pounds of brass



17.8 lbs (just over 8 kg) 



goldsilverpro said:


> drill into the core and extract a sample for xrf assessment



you might want to drill say half-way in and "discard" those shavings --
then continue inward to get an exclusively deep-core sample .. compare 
the two samples to assess solute-segregation upon freezing. 

One could also consider cutting the log in half with either a honkin
grinder, EDM or a power hack-saw. A lathe would also serve (admirably) well in this (cylindrical) capacity. Exposing the inner-workings to not only XRF but also metallographic assessment. 
A suitable etchant would probably be iron chloride followed by an alcohol rinse/wash. I'm guessing.


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## macfixer01 (Dec 15, 2014)

10wt_Percent said:


> you know what I was thinkin ..
> 
> it costs money to employ XRF .. the unit is good for a thousand measurements or so and then (it) has to go in for a factory-recalibration.
> 
> ...




Well it seems you have it all figured out how to sell to the uneducated, 'slices' which will cost them more to recover than the amount of gold they contain is worth! If the color variation within individual bars is any indication your process isn't making them all that homogeneous either? As you've already found there is such a small percentage of gold there that an XRF won't register it, and even if it did it would probably be less than the error tolerance of most XRF units. So you will probably still have no proof of their hypothetical value. You may as well just claim it's "Mil Spec" like the other Ebay scammers and sell away!


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## necromancer (Dec 15, 2014)

at least we will know where the "pucks" on ebay will come from. (if sold there in there present form, or sold at all)
i just can't see how one could sell something like that with good concious.

and you may want to install a spell checker. it helps people all around the world translate into their language without problems.


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## patnor1011 (Dec 15, 2014)

This is just my opinion and bit of experience, no need to get fussy about it but...
Your material in its present state is not worth to even try recovery of some hypothetical values. Not on this side of world, if one have to account for chemicals needed, time and proper waste disposal. You were quick to dismiss XRF results as you believe there must be more in it than there is. I did few samples of similar wonder buttons for one person where I was led to believe they are from karat and gold filled scrap. I would not touch something like that again, even if I could get it free. If you send something like that to refinery they will either return it which (actually happened to that person) is better option or process it and you will end up with a bill instead of being paid (and that happened to him too). So he did not believed them and misled me only to have them "processed". Results disappointed him not to mention that I spent 2 weeks going through waste and looking for gold which was supposed to be there. Whole experience cost me a lot of time and finally placement on his list of people who do not believe that there is fortune in his wonder bars.
With no way of knowing for sure what is in your one, I would not even try to remelt it for fishing sinkers, high melting point and dangers of melting and handling stuff like beryllium or cadmium are enough to put a stop to project like that.


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 16, 2014)

justinhcase said:


> Someone is going to start making up such bars from good stock and sell them on ebay.


Better good than bad.




justinhcase said:


> Why use pins at all if you can get someone who is misinformed to pay you over a hundred time's the value for your product?


I don't want to get shot.




justinhcase said:


> A good refiner offers an efficient route for value to be processed to market,he is content to extract his 10-20% tole for the service.
> because he is not greedy and provides a valuable service people know they are best served by giving him there custom.


That's nice to hear. I'm all for responsible refining.




justinhcase said:


> By presenting your product in a manner that is known to cause inexperienced traders problems while maximize your own profit ,I feel your intent is to make an unfair profit from what little precious metal you posses.


Thanks for the vote of confidence.



justinhcase said:


> The only honest and serviceable outlet I can envision for what you have produced would be to find a copper refiner and hope he/she will pay you for stock to sweeten their house-dore bar with.


That's very magnanimous of you but it's not in the cards. I would sooner break the 10k barrier and sell either online or down at Slicks Jewelry Exchange and Pawn. Short of that; we flog certified sliced-Yulelog© on eBay.



justinhcase said:


> If you have enough material they should pay you a good % of spot but you should not try to get more out of your metal than is there, unless you can make some nice jewelery.


See above.




justinhcase said:


> Just my half penny but it is better to have 1% of one thousand deals than 100% of one(For the use of the example all deals are of equal value)


It's better yet to have 100% of a thousand deals with 100% positive feedback. Am I right or wrong? As long as it's a safe and "quantifiable" commodity I don't see the problem. Furthermore, the old Caveat Emptor need not apply here (in fact) as I'm listing the ingredients. It's up to the buyer to do the math. 
If someone wants to spend a million bucks on a hundred gram bar of recycled e-waste then I would encourage that and cover domestic shipping! It's a wonderful world. Let's keep it that way. Recycle responsibly. Kirk out!


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 16, 2014)

[b said:


> samuel-a[/b]"]10wt_Percent ,
> 
> Would you be willing to share photos of your setup (furnace, molds etc'...) ?



Sure! Iffern and when I get it going. There's the deluxe version with novel process-monitoring and control (that's the Star Trek© version) and then there's the proof-of-concept Flintstones© version. Both of which are works-in-progress (as I've only recently regrouped and set course on this particular "solid state" (non-wet) refining-odyssey. Kinda hard to spec exactly when I might have pics but let's just say asap. Earthquakes and natural and/or financial disasters notwithstanding. 
If all things go accordingly then safe-to-suggest mid to late Jan. for pics and 
possible analysis (profiles). Stay tuned. : )


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 16, 2014)

patnor1011 said:


> This is just my opinion and bit of experience, no need to get fussy about it but...
> Your material in its present state is not worth to even try recovery of some hypothetical values. Not on this side of world, if one have to account for chemicals needed, time and proper waste disposal. You were quick to dismiss XRF results as you believe there must be more in it than there is. I did few samples of similar wonder buttons for one person where I was led to believe they are from karat and gold filled scrap. I would not touch something like that again, even if I could get it free. If you send something like that to refinery they will either return it which (actually happened to that person) is better option or process it and you will end up with a bill instead of being paid (and that happened to him too). So he did not believed them and misled me only to have them "processed". Results disappointed him not to mention that I spent 2 weeks going through waste and looking for gold which was supposed to be there. Whole experience cost me a lot of time and finally placement on his list of people who do not believe that there is fortune in his wonder bars.
> With no way of knowing for sure what is in your one, I would not even try to remelt it for fishing sinkers, high melting point and dangers of melting and handling stuff like beryllium or cadmium are enough to put a stop to project like that.



I would concur with this assessment. It's a function of what's in the final mix and how did you get there? i.e. what disposal concerns have been generated. We have a responsibility to ourselves and to our home planet not to mess things up - am I right? Try and avoid burning plastic (entirely). If you generate refining-fumes address it responsibly. Check for hostile elements in your final product to conform with (conform to) public-safety standards. Avoid wet chemistry if possible. If you have to use it .. try to maximize it's efficiency (through "pre-prep") AND plan (ahead) for adequate waste-disposal (only). 

Sustainability through environmental accountability. A good, solid, guiding-principle for continued responsible product-development and deployment. 

Trust this addresses your concerns.


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## justinhcase (Dec 16, 2014)

justinhcase wrote:The only honest and serviceable outlet I can envision for what you have produced would be to find a copper refiner and hope he/she will pay you for stock to sweeten their house-dore bar with.


That's very magnanimous of you but it's not in the cards. I would sooner break the 10k barrier and sell either online or down at Slicks Jewelry Exchange and Pawn. Short of that; we flog certified sliced-Yulelog© on eBay.

justinhcase wrote:If you have enough material they should pay you a good % of spot but you should not try to get more out of your metal than is there, unless you can make some nice jewelery.

See above.

When I said you would need a good amount I meant metric tonne's not Kilos.Your quantity would not be worth a large copper refiners time on the phone to deal with.
What you have is more of a Brass than Copper to be honest and is worth £2 a kilo,To be very nice to you and give you the benefit of a rosy out look let us say you have good plated items so your Au content is 1/1000th.so your bars have £12 of Au 1000grams.(much more lightly you are less than half that.)
The only people on the planet that will find your product of use would be a very large refinery with a running copper cell.
Making money of desperate people is quite easy but is a very poor sport.


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## kurtak (Dec 16, 2014)

About the only thing I see these "yule logs" being good for is being used as a collector metal in smelting ( incinerated filter papers, bonding wires from "concentrated" ash, incinerated anode bags etc.) to collect the PMs & bring the PM content up to be worth processing at which point what ever gold that "may" now be in them would be recovered --- until then they have no value other then brass (or bronze) (gold content is at this point to low to be worth chasing - unless you want to spend a dollar to make a penny)

And that is if the pins that went into making them were brass - if any bronze pins went in the mix its not even a good choice as a collector metal (due to the tin which is going to haunt you in processing) (still do-able just a poor choice)

They cant be sold (legitimately) as "gold bearing" if an XRF does not detect any gold - to do so is an act of fraud

Kurt


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## Platdigger (Dec 17, 2014)

Anyone remember this?



Lou said:


> Insofar as melting pins goes...do it all the time. Most economical, safe way to do them (in my opinion) is to melt and electrowin the copper. That and you can know what you are expecting at the back end, after the anode bags are burned.


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## Harold_V (Dec 17, 2014)

Platdigger said:


> Anyone remember this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There may be more to this than is obvious, as trying to part low grade copper (which is what you'd have) is not a good idea. The electrolyte is fouled prematurely, altering the deposited copper such that it does not adhere to the cathode. That may not be an issue if the anodes are in bags, however. Perhaps Lou would expound on the matter. 

My opinion? As long as the alloy contains an excess of zinc (which it would have), it is not a prime candidate for parting electrolytically. 

Harold


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## g_axelsson (Dec 17, 2014)

Platdigger said:


> Anyone remember this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just for reference, here is where Lou talks about melting pins but never expands on the subject.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13543&p=194393#p194393
I hope he will do it now.

Göran


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## kurtak (Dec 17, 2014)

Platdigger said:


> Anyone remember this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually this is something I have had in the back of my mind for quite some time now --- when ever it has been discussed in the past it has always been considered a poor idea due to electrolyte becoming quickly contaminated & co-depositing of metals other then copper - BUT -----

What if you don't really care about getting pure copper at the cathode - or in other words - what if your only real goal is to recover the gold (as anode slime) in which case you actually want as much & as many base metals that make up the copper alloy (brass/bronze) to leave the anode & end up at the cathode &/or in the electrolyte - or in other words (again) your goal is NOT to purify copper - but rather to part base metals from an alloy that has "low" concentrations of gold

In such a case (I would think) the more base metals you can get to deposit at the cathode (or end up in the electrolyte) the better --- even if metals slough off the cathode you have affected the intended task

Also I would think you could use copper nitrate (a byproduct we all make) for your electrolyte (as long as silver is not involved) & even run the cell at a higher amp setting then normally recommended for running a copper cell to purify copper as that is not what you are trying to do :?: :?: :?: 

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Dec 17, 2014)

I think the problem is one of scale and energy.
From my chats with Alpha Fry Ltd and Archibald Young Ltd my understanding is that the power consumption on commercial cells is huge.
Some even locate them self's in order to be close to large generating plant's
to turn a profit you have to make use of all your product not just the P.M.'s.
They can offer you almost as much as you could earn yourself from P.M.'s and will pay you for the copper and other impurity's as well.
An interesting study but why reinvent the wheel unless it pay's you a good return to do so.
Much like the stock pot just save every thing up.have it homogenized when you get to several metric tons.
A very nice saving's account for thing unsuitable for de-plaiting that look's worthless to most people.


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## silversaddle1 (Dec 17, 2014)

Oh boy, here we go! Another new groundbreaking adventure! Justinhcase, I sure hope you do figure out a new way to refine this stuff and you share it with all of those here on the forum. 

I agree with Harold. His toys, his way.

We can only point out that it will be more work to get the values out now, but then again, he could always sell them on E-bay and make his money!


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## justinhcase (Dec 17, 2014)

silversaddle1 said:


> Oh boy, here we go! Another new groundbreaking adventure! Justinhcase, I sure hope you do figure out a new way to refine this stuff and you share it with all of those here on the forum.
> 
> I agree with Harold. His toys, his way.
> 
> We can only point out that it will be more work to get the values out now, but then again, he could always sell them on E-bay and make his money!


It is Not new it is the way they have been recycling copper since 1865.
No one other than a copper refiner would be able to dilute what I call dirty brass enough to get a good separation of metals in an Electrowinning cell.
from what I have been told they need a good selection of source metals so they can juggle the content of there feed stock to maximize the efficiency of there process.
But they will not get out of bed for small amounts.
May be a good opportunity for several people's lot's to be put together.then you could get above there threshold requirements and get paid good prices with out having to process tune's of low return stock.
P.s.I am trying to discourage people putting such items up on fleeBay.It may make a buck but it is not really cricket is it?


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 18, 2014)

These guys will run certain suitable feedstock for a fee. My understanding is (that) it's around $750 a load. Something to consider.

http://www.cyanidedestruct.com/


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## etack (Dec 18, 2014)

sorry somehow it posted twice?

Eric


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## etack (Dec 18, 2014)

10wt_Percent said:


> These guys will run certain suitable feedstock for a fee. My understanding is (that) it's around $750 a load. Something to consider.
> 
> http://www.cyanidedestruct.com/




That has nothing to do with the material you have. You have a "homogeneous" mixture of metals and the remove PMs from plating solutions. apples to oranges.

Eric


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 18, 2014)

double posting my images gives me double vision. Please try to accommodate my aesthetic sensitivities in this regard.

CyanideDestruct does more than just recover PGM's from spent plating solutions. I'm not the expert but it's my understanding that greenboard (plated printed circuit boards) responds well .. although it's got to be 
depopulated. 

Your objection that my material is homogenous may nor may not be a 
bar to cyanide recovery. I hesitate to speculate. 

perhaps I should have posted under processes and strategies .. but I like it here : ) Hope you do too! : ) Ho Ho Ho


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## 10wt_Percent (Dec 18, 2014)

more work-in-progress 
"altered states" we'll call it 
















I used my mega-magnetic to pull out about 1% (or less) of magnetic material .. pulled out what looks like iron sand along with some 
particulate matter (feed material) -- not particularly much -- probably around a tenth of a percent by weight.


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