# ebola



## grance

surprised no ones talking about this yet. now that its in ohio i'm concerned.


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## Anonymous

You mean you weren't concerned before when it was other populations who were dying?


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## solar_plasma

If they would have followed rules for BIO3 safety (don't know if this term is international, it is the highest bio hazard safety), none would have been infected. I was shocked, when I saw, that they only used gloves, goggles and that sweet surgical mask in ...where was it? Texas? That "safety suit" cannot be decontaminated before you take it off. Further, it takes more than a short briefing to learn how to get off those clothes after the work is done. I would rather say, it takes at least some days of training.


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## jeneje

Interesting topic. Time to microwave some popcorn. :shock: 
Ken


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## justinhcase

I was sure that all the zombie T.V. programs and movies were an attempt to prepare people to look at infected individuals as sub-human thing's to be exterminated.
I was just unsure what the disease would be.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread994999/pg1


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## solar_plasma

I think those "coffins" are pretty much useless. Remember how many died and got murdered in WW2? - war dead 70 million, holocaust 6,3 million! And surprisingly they didn't need any toy "coffins". Probably just some industry guys who made a lot of $$$ selling some useless stuff to the state. Fear is a big business.


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## Lou

Not terribly concerned as its transmission is easily stopped or prevented with proper hygiene and isolation procedures.

Just a matter of getting everyone on board as far as stopping traffic in and out of that part of the world and following guidelines. Now, if this were spread like the flu...well, better buy some food boys and girls.



solar_plasma, this and other viral hemorrhagic fevers are Level 4 not 3, and that's mostly for the fact of it being so high in mortality.


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## FrugalRefiner

I agree with Lou. Flu has killed a lot more people than ebola and it's a lot easier to contract. Ebola isn't new. 

Dave


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## Harold_V

solar_plasma said:


> Fear is a big business.


True, as is mass hysteria, whereby what is is transformed to what isn't, by an active mind that is convoluted. We're seeing a great deal of that here in the US, where accusations are being tossed about with reckless abandon. 

People need to get a life. 

Harold


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## MarcoP

grance said:


> surprised no ones talking about this yet. now that its in ohio i'm concerned.


I don't talk about it as I hate the idea of it. Where I'm staying at the moment we had 20.000 immigrants in the first quarter, up to 2000 in two days. From this count are excluded all dead bodies found in the sea around my area.

We are at high risk and our government does nothing about and the count is increasing with no breaks.



Lou said:


> Not terribly concerned as its transmission is easily stopped or prevented with proper hygiene and isolation procedures.
> 
> Just a matter of getting everyone on board as far as stopping traffic in and out of that part of the world and following guidelines. Now, if this were spread like the flu...well, better buy some food boys and girls.
> 
> 
> 
> solar_plasma, this and other viral hemorrhagic fevers are Level 4 not 3, and that's mostly for the fact of it being so high in mortality.


I don't know what the news say in USA and the rest of the world about immigration in Sicily (south Italy island), but I can tell you many immigrants are docking in beaches unsupervised and disappearing afterward. I my self found boats at the beach and my friends caught few more. Authorities were already aware but the first call arrived when boats were already empty.

I'll invite you all not to underestimate this virus.


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## solar_plasma

Lou said:


> Not terribly concerned as its transmission is easily stopped or prevented with proper hygiene and isolation procedures.
> 
> Just a matter of getting everyone on board as far as stopping traffic in and out of that part of the world and following guidelines. Now, if this were spread like the flu...well, better buy some food boys and girls.
> 
> 
> 
> solar_plasma, this and other viral hemorrhagic fevers are Level 4 not 3, and that's mostly for the fact of it being so high in mortality.



Yes, in the lab it is called bio4. In hazmat teams and other emergency services here the highest protection level is called 3, which has to be used in bio3 and 4 lab areas, though a bio4 lab is even prohibited area to those. In this case experts from the lab have to decide and give their ok.


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## justinhcase

I have a job lot of M.O.D.- N.B.C. kit's left over from a job in 2000 if any one is feeling scratchy.
Only large and extra large I am afraid.


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## solar_plasma

Ebola is only one of plenty of scaring diseases in africa. 4000 dead by ebola is just not much compared to malaria alone. Nevertheless, this epidemy is serious, the virus is transforming and maybe now peoples all over the world will start to understand, that we need to help africa into a modern world for our own safety's sake, if not for humanity. Also the already mentioned immigrant problem can only be solved, if we help them instead of sucking the last dollar/euro/whatever out of this continent.


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## Lou

I imagine killed in Africa from the want of yellow and black gold (and all that goes with it) than this.


Want to solve many of the world problems? Become a teacher and educate/motivate people so that they are self-empowered.


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## solar_plasma

> Become a teacher


Ok, done. 8) 



> and educate/motivate people so that they are self-empowered.


I do my best. :lol: 

Joking apart, this is just what we need all over the world, better education in the broadest sense.


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## Geo

This may be a bit off topic but I was searching for third world afflictions wondering which one was next. There are parasites that make life unbearable that occur naturally and are being transmitted to other third world nations by accident. One that migrated from central and south America to the west coast of Africa called Chigoe flea. It doesn't sound like much but it can effect whole communities where the people live close to the dirt and few have shoes. It isn't the same by any means but it is the same mode of transportation, humans. It shows me that no one is immune. The poor countries have their afflictions and the more technologically advance has theirs. The only difference between us and them is technology. Now we will find out if technology can fight it.


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## justinhcase

The problem is not the third world and it's infiltrate variable combinations of path0ogens.
The big danger is in the developed world where the every day infections are exposed to our antibiotics.
It is not a matter of if but of when an infection evolves to by pass all our nice safe medical protocols.
Imagine Ebola crossed with sars and more infective than influenza 
In an infinite universe any thing that can happen will happen.


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## solar_plasma

Gladly I can declare the universe isn't infinite, nor is time for any lifeform. If I remember right, in the visible space we count about one trillion galaxies with each about one trillion stars. The visible space is a quite a big part of the whole cake. Depending on the model we use, some day it will be too dark and too cold for any life or time will go backwards and/or it will get too hot. So, I am glad to say, that only the most possible things will happen the next 100 000 years.

It's up to us, to make bad things less possible or at least their impact in life smaller.

I think technology is not our mightiest weapon, though we tend to believe it is. Our mightiest weapon is education. If the rural people in the ebola hot spots were more educated, ebola wouldn't have been spread that much at all. But too many go on washing and touching their deads, even believing the medical forces are evil.

Ebola is a big threat. It is not the only one. Not the only and not the first threat to be alarmed. We are just influenced by the media, quick to get in panic and quick to forget.


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## jeneje

Ebola is not only effecting health concerns but, also the U.S. markets. All the major markets are down. Dow was off at one point 470 points yesterday and down over 200 points this morning. As you guys have pointed out two cases don't justify a panic but it has had an effect on the markets causing a sell off. Interesting to see what today brings.

Ebola is not the only thing in play but, it differently has added it effect to the game.

Gold is up and one thing i noticed since this has started gold is only off $5.00 from platinum now. Is gold going to over take platinum again? 
Ken


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## yar

Live hearings on Ebola starting now on c-span. Head of CDC is going to be questioned.


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## Anonymous

There's no such thing as a localised epidemic.

Time after time this is proven yet people still choose to stick their heads in the sand and say that it "won't come here" even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.


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## solar_plasma

Endemic: in a local area
Epidemic: in one population
Pandemic: spreading intercontinental

So, yes, no, there is no such thing as a local epidemic.


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## Anonymous

Bah I have been trounced by logic Solar- you are quite correct!

So is Ebola a pandemic or an epidemic waiting to become one? 

Jon


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## pimpneightez

Bring it I'm prepared.


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## solar_plasma

Better use this one:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemikalienschutzanzug#mediaviewer/File:Csa-sls.jpg

or at least:

http://georg-hader.de/aktuelles/item/144-ebola-infektionsschutzanzug.html

If you get contaminated you can be disinfected with very toxic disinfectants. And you need a team to do this and to help you out of those suits by rolling the inside out, pack it into big packs and send them to incineration. THEN you are safe...at least if you find some "green"/"white" area, where you are not in danger. Everything else is hoax frommy point of view. Lou and other are right about, ebola isn't spread as easy as the flue, but up to 90% mortality talks for its own.


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## Geo

Since Bleach is effective in killing the ebola virus, whatever protection that is exposed to the contagion has to be resistant to chlorine bleach. After each exposure, the subject should be sprayed from head to toe with 1:10 concentration of 6% sodium hypochlorite bleach and water. In particular, gloves should be treated with straight bleach for up to 5 minutes before touching with bare skin. Alcohol based hand sanitizer should be applied as soon as the gloves are removed. Hand sanitizers — along with chlorine, heat, direct sunlight, soaps and detergents — can kill Ebola living outside of a host, according to Doctors Without Borders and numerous reports. The average person touches their face 2-4 times a minute or over 5,000 times a day.


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## solar_plasma

Geo said:


> Since Bleach is effective in killing the ebola virus, whatever protection that is exposed to the contagion has to be resistant to chlorine bleach. After each exposure, the subject should be sprayed from head to toe with 1:10 concentration of 6% sodium hypochlorite bleach and water. In particular, gloves should be treated with straight bleach for up to 5 minutes before touching with bare skin. Alcohol based hand sanitizer should be applied as soon as the gloves are removed. Hand sanitizers — along with chlorine, heat, direct sunlight, soaps and detergents — can kill Ebola living outside of a host, according to Doctors Without Borders and numerous reports. The average person touches their face 2-4 times a minute or over 5,000 times a day.



Maybe correct in the case of ebola. For inactivating viruses in common the Robert-Koch-Institute says 2 hours for surfaces/4 hours for excrementious matter at 6% concentration, if active chlorine is used in any form: http://hygiene-for-cleaners.eu/media/RKI/Desinfektionsmittelliste.pdf

I don't know, if ebola is that easy to destroy and if it's just german "Gründlichkeit" (german efficiency).

I would guess, what Doctors without borders say, is a minimum treatment to reduce the concentration of pathogens below a limit they will not effect a healthy human with intact immune system.


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## patnor1011

OK, lets say that all various flu horror scenarios failed to materialize last couple of years so lets create worldwide panic and hysteria with something more exotic like ebola this time. 
I wonder what will be the next scare.


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## Anonymous

patnor1011 said:


> OK, lets say that all various flu horror scenarios failed to materialize last couple of years so lets create worldwide panic and hysteria with something more exotic like ebola this time.
> I wonder what will be the next scare.




Extremist muslim hordes romping through the world spreading carnage like Genghis Khan perhaps?


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## Long Shot

What astounds and confounds me is the fact that people are still allowed to travel freely about areas of known infection. Can anybody say quarantine? The principal is not new nor is the fact that contagious disease is spread by contact. I do not get it.


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## rickbb

The reasoning for not restricting travel is to be able to track and screen people who have been in those countries. 

If we ban direct travel then they will go an indirect route and we lose the ability to know where they have been and who to track and screen.


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## Anonymous

rickbb said:


> The reasoning for not restricting travel is to be able to track and screen people who have been in those countries.
> 
> If we ban direct travel then they will go an indirect route and we lose the ability to know where they have been and who to track and screen.



What an utterly ridiculous theory Rick.


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## FrugalRefiner

spaceships said:


> rickbb said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reasoning for not restricting travel is to be able to track and screen people who have been in those countries.
> 
> If we ban direct travel then they will go an indirect route and we lose the ability to know where they have been and who to track and screen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an utterly ridiculous theory Rick.
Click to expand...

 :?: :?: :?: 

It's not ridiculous at all. I absolutely agree with Rick.

The U.S. is now routing all incoming flights from the affected African countries through just 4 or 5 airports where they have geared up so they can check arriving passengers. If you restrict direct flights, the travelers who want to come here will just fly to a country where it's not restricted, then fly here. Then they can arrive at any International airport in this country and no one will be checking them for symptoms when they arrive. How is that ridiculous?

Dave


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## Anonymous

Sorry Dave I think you're both wrong in that case.

Regardless of whether screening takes place there will still be the traffic in the unofficial routes. So what does the screening achieve exactly apart from checking out the "official" travellers?


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## FrugalRefiner

spaceships said:


> Sorry Dave I think you're both wrong in that case.
> 
> Regardless of whether screening takes place there will still be the traffic in the unofficial routes. So what does the screening achieve exactly apart from checking out the "official" travellers?


Of course there will be travelers who arrive here by other than direct flights, but they are the minority.

What would be accomplished by restricting direct flights? It would turn the few into the many. I don't see how that makes any sense or accomplishes anything of benefit.

Dave


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## Anonymous

Hey remember I'm European. This isn't all about the US Dave.....

It's a worldwide problem with differing transport routes in different countries. You don't have the monopoly here.


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## Palladium

Let it through so we can track it. Wasn't that the logic behind fast and furious also? lol
Turned out well for everybody else i guess unless your the border agent that got killed.

Logic tells me that if something like that were to truly get lose and spread through the population then we would have a problem. Once it gets in front of you you can't stop it, it has to run it's course. If you never allow it to start or even the chance that it would then you have reduced the likely hood and the law of probability that that event will occur in time. I'm not one of those over reactors, but yes i say either a ban or a quarantine for the incubation period which people wont agree to a quarantine so yes ban it until future time.

Just my vote!


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## FrugalRefiner

spaceships said:


> Hey remember I'm European. This isn't all about the US Dave.....
> 
> It's a worldwide problem with differing transport routes in different countries. You don't have the monopoly here.


Jon, I'm aware you're in th U.K. I only responded to your remark that Rick's theory was ridiculous. Rick is in the U.S., so I assumed his comments about restriction were based on how the U.S. has reacted, and why travel hasn't been shut down as many would like. 

Even if all air travel was suspended, Marco has pointed out to us earlier in this thread that people are arriving in Italy by boat. So the idea that any country can close the gates and keep a disease out while it runs its course among the rest of the world's population just doesn't work. So the U.S. has chosen to continue to allow travel, but to route it through specific airports.

That's why I made my comment in the way I did, to say "The U.S. is now routing...", as my way of saying this is how we're doing things where I live. I have to admit that I am ignorant as to what the rest of the world is doing. We don't get much news coverage on how other countries are responding, especially those that are much closer. I have no idea if there is any type of restriction against travel to other bordering African nations, or within the affected nations themselves.

I don't think the ebola problem is all about the US, and I surely don't want to have any kind of monopoly. I can only make comments from my point of view here in the U.S., and since I don't know how other countries are responding, I can only provide information about what is being done where I live.

Dave


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## Anonymous

Hey no worries Dave, you should know me better by now- I'm debating not having a pop.

I still think the whole " track/scan it" scenario is ridiculous. We can agree to differ though, that's perfectly fine. What happens if it evolves to airborne whilst you're tracking and scanning it? Keep it out.


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## FrugalRefiner

spaceships said:


> Keep it out.


How would you propose to do that? 
Restrict travel from one continent to another? It's already beyond that.
Restrict travel from one country to another? No, too late for that.
Restrict travel from one state to another? No, a worker from Dallas traveled to Ohio.
Restrict travel from one county to another?
Restrict travel from one street to another?
Restrict travel from one house to another?

Where do you draw that line that will keep it out?

Sorry, I know the state, county reference is just how we divide up territory here in the U.S. and others may not understand the references. I feel the same way when you and Nick start talking about Geordies and Brummies and Glaswegians.

Dave


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## Geo

As far as a global situation, it is every ones problem. I say close the borders there to keep it contained. Restrict flights into the countries to only people who sign a waiver stating that they will stay until they go through a 21 day quarantine. Sending people there and sending them straight back to their home country after infection is crazy. With a few exceptions, the most people infected can not afford to leave the country anyway. All other countries should send all the resources they can and keep the infection there.


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## nickvc

I hate to point out the obvious but as clever as mankind has become the planet will always find ways to kill us and no matter how hard we try it always will, we cure flu and along comes aids not to mention cancers or new diseases that won't respond to medicines.
Remember we aren't and never can be god our time s limited and we need to be sure we live with that in mind.


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## Long Shot

Thing is, viruses are the oldest form of life (or maybe not depending on your definition of life, and that of science) on the planet. They are famous and known for mutating and evolving on the fly. Ebola is not like flu at the moment but could become so in a heartbeat. Screening or not, it is funny how we all are just allowing this to spread around. That, my friends, may be our downfall in the end. If a situation arises where insurgence happens we are all over that like a fat boy on a Smartie with all the guns and resources we have but with this we are just allowing it to be distributed - and that may result in an epidemic killing millions, hmmm, black plague, 1918 influenza. This started in a limited area and could have been controlled very well by quarantine if the will was there but it seems it was and is not. So, let us let r' rip, apparently.


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## Geo

Virus pathogens do not make huge evolutionary jumps like that in bounds and leaps. It may become airborne but not in this generation or even in the next hundred according to the laws of probability. By the time flu came to humans, it was already an ancient virus that made the jump to humans. No one actually knows how old the flu virus is or where it came from. Since Ebola is not airborne now means that it should take thousands of years or more for it to evolve to an airborne sickness. It wasn't just small pox that killed out the native Americans. Just the old standard run of the mill flu killed untold millions that explorers never knew about. By the time settlers arrived, huge tracts of land that had a bustling native economy was deserted. since the natives did not build in stone, in a handful of years, all trace of them just disappeared. It would have looked like a movie set of the apocalypse with no one to bury the dead, the bodies would have been dispersed by wildlife and predation of the few survivors. These metropolitan areas would have seemed cursed by the survivors and abandoned. Biological warfare at it's finest. Introduce a contagion into a population that has no immunities to it and you have the makings for a biological catastrophe. There is a company in Huntsville Al. that is working on a Ebola vaccine and say all they need is money to start clinical trials. http://www.waaytv.com/appnews/local-hsv-company-to-develop-ebola-vaccine/article_fefe0060-5a61-11e4-b443-0017a43b2370.html


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## g_axelsson

spaceships said:


> What happens if it evolves to airborne whilst you're tracking and scanning it? Keep it out.


The probability that the Ebola virus would evolve to be airborne is very low. It is not a simple mutation but a number of steps to make. We could compare it to the AIDS virus that still isn't airborne. There have been approximately 30-35 million people that died from AIDS, there are probably as many living with AIDS today. Totally 70 million affected until today and the average lifespan is years without AIDS mutating into airborne.

The Ebola virus on the other hand has so far infected circa 10.000 persons (increasing and probably with a large dark number of additional cases) that either dies or get well within a couple of weeks. The number of Ebola viruses are just so much smaller than for AIDS and a lot other diseases that is also not airborne.

Only a few diseases have evolved to an airborne state. The risk exists but is quite small.

The really scary thing with Ebola is that it is really contagious so only a small contact can be enough to transmit the disease. Then it has a mortality of so far 50% coupled with the spreading rate of every infected person infects another two. A doubling of cases in just five weeks.
This is a problem for the whole world, if action is delayed for five weeks the problem will be twice as big, not to talk about all the dead people. The affected countries were in bad form even before this outbreak. What is happening now is destroying the infra structure and society in these countries.

Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS#Epidemiology
http://www.aidsmap.com/Life-expectancy-now-considerably-exceeds-the-average-in-some-people-with-HIV-in-the-US/page/2816267/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_epidemic_in_West_Africa

Göran


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## Anonymous

I like debates like this where everyone keeps their hair on and engages in a reasoned way. 8) 

Did anyone read the story today about the doctor (Craig Spencer) who has been travelling round New York for over a week before displaying ebola symptoms? He's been on public transport, underground trains and taxis for 7 days before presenting the "official symptoms." The sheer number of people he has been in contact with is staggering.


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## 4metals

As I happened to have spent this past week in New York City I can tell you from the reportings this man knew he was exposed as he was a doctor volunteering with doctors without borders. He did not exhibit symptoms and when he experienced a low grade fever he immediately called the hospital and was properly transported to a facility to isolate him. His girl friend and two others with whom he had contact are currently in isolation. As far as anyone can tell this man handled his situation properly and minimized any potential risk. If the hospital in Dallas had behaved similarly the level of hysteria we see here in the states may have been minimized. 

I hate to throw cold water on your post but this story was likely blown out of proportion to sell newspapers. The details as presented in the city of New York cause for exponentially less concern. 

What is really disappointing is the fact that a cure with strong promise due to its effectiveness on test monkeys was shelved 10 years ago as there was not enough profit potential in the cure. I would think that the World Health Organization would have pushed to have this cure developed and on the shelf due to the severity of an ebola outbreak. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/24/h...ebola-vaccine-was-shelved-for-years.html?_r=0

Capitalism wins again!


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## Long Shot

Spaceships - I agree, a debate amongst educated, wise people is stimulating and when a fellow like 4 metals chips in with the above it raises the ante. Very good on the Dr without borders, these people are truly awesome in their ethic. And thank you all for your input on the airborne mutation thing. That is what is the normal and what has happened in the past. As this thing is super contagious I think it is not a good idea to believe that a 1000 years will pass before it becomes airborne. I really think that travel to and from the affected areas should be stopped and right now. We as a species have been wrong many times before and it has bit us. The final bite may come from something like this, I think caution and extreme prejudice should apply here until we have a firm plan and more yet, affirmative action available - we do have the tech and means to control this. As has been stated, Capitalism. I don't care how much money one has or where one thinks they can live because they have lots of money and can avoid everything. Money does not save you from death, disease or a broken heart for that matter. Maybe because I have never been rich I am disqualified from saying this but if I hads billions I think I would be putting millions towards solving this. When one dies, rich or poor, we all wind up in the same ground we came from.


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## artart47

Hi Friends!
To have an understanding of the microbial universe!
We exist in their world. Ebola , along with other hemoragic fever viruses, have been around in africa for a long time. there are widespread,small outbreaks where the virus jumps to humans. The local people do everything right, quarentine the villiges and medical clinics that have the victims and the outbreak dies out and the is gone from the human population....for now. One time it was near the north end of Lake Victoria near Mt Elgon. Another at a cotton procesing facility.
These mini-epidemics occure because of human activity! One such incedent with Lasa Fever virus had a chain of events that gave the rare virus the chance to exploit humans, and it took full advantage of the chance 
You have to know how this ecology works. these viruses exist in a reservoir! In some small niche per-haps in one remote valley, or bats in Kitim Cave! They exist symbioticly in a host animal, insect, friut-bat...etc. There are vectors that can become infected and are able to bring the virus to the humans or a human ventures into the reservoir's territory and brings virus to the villiage or a med clinic and then "it's show time. 
The Lasa epidemic hit a handful of villiages. The people suddenly cleared a large area and replaced it with a monoclonal crop,corn! this provided a huge new food source for the mice. Their numbers were kept in check by the cats. Epedimiologists were tole that before the virus hit, all of the cats died. At the location where the dead cats were disposed of, remains showed that the cat weren't killed by Lasa. They were loaded with DDT ! With no cats the mouse took over the fields and the homes and they also brought live virus that was shed in their urine.
Traps were set and as the mice were eradicated, the new cases of Lasa ceased.
A givine virus can evolve a million times faster than a human and they WILL aquire whatever attribute they need to exploit the oppertunity that you give them. Ebola kills too fast,victim has symptom quickly, he is taken out of the community and they track the contacts he had and you're in front of it and can stop it from becoming wide spread. That worked well for Aids virus back when it first came accrosss the boarder from Ugonda in a black market fabric salesman and the victims were sick in a few weeks and died in a very short time, but, when it hit the Kinshasa Highway and then left the contenent, it was under pressure to become asymptimatic yet highly infectious for a decade or more. 
Scientists and villiagers can stop an outbreake and it won't become a global terror! Politicians can't! If they keep screwing with this virus and giving the people a bunch of B.S. Ebola will come! It will alter it's characteristics, and if it's here long enough, it will find a reservoir and vectors and become as endemic to america as Aids is or Lyme disease!

artart47


ps Two extreamely good sources are "The Comming Plauge" by Lori Garret and (be aware that the following book may be very upsetting to some people because of the setting of the early years of the introduction of Aids to America but it lets you see how the powers that be... treat a outbreak when the victims of it are considered undesirable) The book...."The Band Played On"


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## rickbb

spaceships said:


> rickbb said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reasoning for not restricting travel is to be able to track and screen people who have been in those countries.
> 
> If we ban direct travel then they will go an indirect route and we lose the ability to know where they have been and who to track and screen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an utterly ridiculous theory Rick.
Click to expand...


Not my theory, the NIH, CDC and apparently and many "experts" I've seen on the talking head infotainment teevee shows of late are the one espousing this.

Edit to correct an autocorrect that was not correct, and to add;

The only travel ban that would work would be a total travel ban to everywhere from everywhere.


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## solar_plasma

"Aids virus"?

What is it? ...Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome

Probably you mean HIV. Ok, beyond all the bad scientific "research" done through the last three decades, has anybody ever seen, that HIV alone without other factors has caused AIDS? NO. And if so, please share the proofs! 

All, we really know, is, that some people get problems with their immune system. Some of them has antibodies against HIV. Though the tests give a lot of false postive, if the person has antibody against several other diseases. Did you know, you can be tested positive in the US and negative in Australia? Did you know, you can even be tested differently in the same country? Did you know, that other vectors cause symptoms equal to AIDS, like poppers/amylnitride, malnutrition and HIV-medicine?

Maybe there is something that makes ill, and we don't understand it yet. But the history of AIDS research is a conglomerate of scientific mistakes, media hype, popular superstition and an opportunistic industry.

Listening to a couple of noble pricers, physicians and journalists, there are just too many open questions! Where are the scientific facts?


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## artart47

Hi again!
In my post I gave you a small insight into how these little pieces of nucleic acid with their protein coat do what they do and if given the chance will go from obscurity to infecting an entire world. all the what it's called...what people say about false research....what news media did... etc is of no concearn with what we face right now.
There is a virus that is in the process of grabbing new territory if it's allowed to, there will be hell to pay.
Just as a noob studies Hoke's book and our forum and comes away with a thourough new understanding of recovery and refining, I found Lauri Garret's to do the same with understanding the microbial ecology that we compete with. If you know how it works you can protect yourself and family.
The second book will give an insight into what it will be like in our cities if an epidemic like this starts here.
artart47


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## solar_plasma

No doubt about your interesting post! I was just gone offtopic, when I read this little word "aids virus", since we do not know enough about AIDS, even though we believe we do.


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## 4metals

I read "The Band Played On" years ago, I just purchased the e-book to do a re-read. That book has to be 20 years old. 

I have a home in the big city and a home in the countryside of rural Pennsylvania. I prefer to, and do, spend most of my time in the country. If I had my choice of where I would rather be in an outbreak, I would choose the country any day!


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## macfixer01

I didn't read the book but recall the movie version of And The Band Played On. It was quite interesting to learn the background story of HIV/AIDS before they even knew what it even was, or how it was transmitted. All the politics involved, and the unscrupulousness of Dr Robert Gallo who used a copy of a sample virus given to him by the Pasteur Institute and announced a discovery before they planned to. Then he claimed himself to be the discoverer. Back to the subject of Ebola though, there is a very good book from 1994 by Richard Preston called The Hot Zone. I recommend it.


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## Anonymous

4metals said:


> I hate to throw cold water on your post but this story was likely blown out of proportion to sell newspapers. The details as presented in the city of New York cause for exponentially less concern.



Just returned to this thread but mate I would never think you were throwing cold water on my post. I happen to agree with the vast majority of what you're saying there. The reporting was selective to say the least- certainly the reporting we got over here in the UK. The scum that run tabloid newspapers don't give a damn about the reaction or fallout they cause from their "reporting."

edit- sad typo.


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## Long Shot

I had a biology teacher in grade 10 - Mrs Saini, a very bright, highly educated, Pakistani woman. As a juvenile she was very funny to listen to, her accent in all and the seriousness of her fortitude. She instilled the bit about viruses being the oldest life form and the most opportunistic. I my humble opinion it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when some virus (maybe Ebola) will evolve enough and be resistant enough to take us all out and leave the world a new threshold for life. If we don't take the measures to keep it contained it can and probably will evolve into something we can't control. Dinosaurs went extinct, some say due to an asteroid impact, but that was many millions of years ago and who is or is not to say that it may have been something like a virus that helped that along. I REALLY think that proper quarantine measures need to be applied to this. World travel and monitoring be damned, if it gets out and gets it's chance we won't have a second chance, we will loose.


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## Geo

I read that we refer to viruses the wrong way. We talk about killing it like it's alive. It has biological activity and can replicate and multiply but simply speaking, a virus is just loose DNA and RNA but it is not alive. It lies dormant until a suitable host comes into contact with it. Since we consider the primary host or "primary reservoir" of Ebola to be primates, it made the jump to primates from something else, the true primary reservoir . Humans come into contact normally through tainted "bush meat". If humans could determine the real organism that host the Ebola that the primates are being infected from, then perhaps it can be wiped out. The primate death toll should be on par with the human mortality rate of around 70% of those infected. Since the primate populations doesn't show this dramatic decrease, does it show that primates have a better tolerance of the virus or that humans have weaker immune systems. Until humans can be taught not to kill and eat monkeys, it will keep popping up in the future.


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## patnor1011

It is not just about monkeys and teaching people not to kill them. We do our bit also by having all nasty viruses in mostly military labs and playing god with them. I say eating monkey meat pose less danger to mankind than pseudo science where people spend money and time to find a way to kill other people trying to weaponize viruses.


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## Palladium

patnor1011 said:


> weaponize viruses.



More dangerous than nukes!


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## patnor1011

Well, maybe there is time we stop patronize Africa. While our media speculate that outbreak was caused by eating bush meat, African media speculate that it was caused by some accident or deliberate release from military research lab out there.


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## Geo

The Hantavirus is a hemorrhagic fever that is carried by mice. It pops up occasionally when someone comes into contact with the infected urine. Here in America, it's carried by the deer mouse. The host does not become ill from the virus. If people ate mice like people eat monkeys, we would be discussing Hantavirus instead of Ebola. There are many different types of hemorrhagic fever. Some are transmitted by insects and some are transmitted through the infected bodily fluids of mammals. Yellow fever is a hemorrhagic virus that only infects humans and primates and mosquitoes. Here in Decatur Alabama, yellow fever very nearly wiped out the entire town. In 1878, there were 187 cases, 51 deaths in Decatur. Survivors fled the city in fear. By the time the epidemic was over, the town was a few miles east and the city was renamed Albany Landing. There is a mass grave in the center of downtown Decatur that was covered in large irregular shaped rocks and surrounded by a wrought iron fence. The plaques tell of the outbreaks and ends with a warning not to dig in the soil within the fence. These types of diseases are much older than humans and in a sense, we were built for them and perhaps they had a part in our evolution. They get into our cells and the loose DNA and RNA bonds with our own genes. If it is a war between us and them, we lost before we started fighting.


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## Palladium

Being from Decatur i had forgotten about that Geo, thanks!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/31/alabama.mass.grave/index.html?iref=24hours


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## Long Shot

Geo - very interesting. Yes, I commented much earlier in this thread about viruses being the earliest form of life and that would depend on what an individual or science defines as life - my Grade 10 biology teacher also mentioned that and is where I get that statement from. The fact that they do manipulate DNA and RNA to reproduce themselves kind of indicates lifeform activity but the fact they can lay dormant for extremely long periods of time without nourishment or activity kind of indicates not a lifeform. I never thought about us being made for them, as you say, the fact that they may cause our DNA and RNA to be altered from their activity and thus survivors may be quite a bit different from the previous generations and have children or grandchildren that are a far cry from the family tree, so to speak. Maybe that explains people like Einstien, Tesla and the like! I wonder if anybody has ever done thesis work on something like what you suggest, sure would be interesting reading. :shock:


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## Geo

Well, to me, it just seems like common sense. Doctors use "harmless" viruses as vehicles to carry gene therapy medicines to the patients cells. They make monsters from ordinary insects, like flies with thousands of eyes on their bodies or even cause mutations in growth making them super small or super large. The mechanism to manipulate genes is viruses. It's not just fruit flies and spiders that can be manipulated but all living things to a great extent. Researchers can speed up the process to make the changes occur in one generation but nature can do the same thing but over a much longer period of time. The fact is, every virus that effects humans, everyone, is because humans have the correct sequences of gene receptors that the viruses can attach itself to. Is it harder to believe that the virus itself mutated to match the receptors or that the virus mutated humans to have the right receptors. Each time a human is infected with a virus and survives, that virus becomes part of the genetic makeup of that particular human. 

A group of humans lives in relative isolation with a few hundred individuals. They catch fish and raise goats. One sheep comes into contact with infected bat droppings that carries a form of mammalian flu. The sheep contracts the flu and it spreads to the rest of the sheep. The first herder with that flu strain passes it around. The flu strain is aggressive and fast growing with a 70% mortality rate for humans over two weeks. The first time it's introduced, it kills nearly half of all the shepherds and their families. The flu lies dormant long enough for the survivors to procreate. The same flu strain hits the village again 15 years later. This time, the mortality rate drops to below 40% due to antibodies from the survivors of the original outbreak. Skip ahead 15-30 years in the future. The same flu strain hits again but this time only the very old and the very young are in mortal danger due to secondary symptoms and bacterial infections. From here on, this particular flu strain is just a sore throat and a miserable couple of weeks. During the seasonal flu season, a young man with the sniffles makes a huge journey (perhaps to buy a bride) from a village far enough away that it takes days of travel to get there. This village is large, with several thousand people. When he arrives, the first person he comes into physical contact with is infected with a flu virus that is not known and no one there has ever had. He makes the deal infecting everyone he touches, takes his bride and leaves for home. The second village is now infected with an infectious virus with a 70% mortality rate from a guy with the sniffles. 

I'm not educated and dropped out of grade school and none of this might make any sense to anyone else but it makes sense to me.


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## Palladium

If you think about the world from the viruses perspective it considers itself the hunter and you are its prey. Think of it as its own universe and bio system. Humans are the outsiders.


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## Geo

This may actually help in the long run. 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ebola-puts-ghanas-bush-meat-traders-out-of-work/ar-BBbR9SH


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## artart47

hI !
i don't consider a virus to be a lifeform. It consists of a packet of genetic information, a protective protien coat and receptor molecules that are specific to the target cells. The genetic packet has the instructions to construct all the components of the virus. The receptors allow it to gain entry to the target cells. Virus\' have no cellular machinery and is not alive. As a computor virus is harmless floating around the internet untill it gains entry to a windows operating system and can find the file that is it's target. only then can it replicate and spread, Biologic virus' are the same. The victum is the operating system and certain cells with-in the victum are the target files.
Virus' were not the earliest lifeforms . They would have come along after the establishment of single-cell or fairly complecated multi-celled organisms. Very well may have been a way in wich these early organisms broadcast their seed in order to replicate instead of cell devision.
Just the way I see it. I have no source for the info.
artart47


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## Geo

There is one big think tank that I can't remember the name of but I'm sure I can look it up, they believe that viruses or at least the first virus, came from outer space. Organic compounds have been found in comet material and meteor fragments. Working on the assumption that all stars as we know them came from larger stars that eventually went nova, it's easy to believe that the building blocks of life and those pesky hard to kill viruses were just left overs from the chaos. Who knows, some higher powers joke on the living. Kill the living with a biological yet unliving design.


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