# a little help here PLEASE



## ffallan (Oct 17, 2011)

I used the aqua regia method for some gold jewelry and gold dust in the same container, I know I have some other metals like copper, silver, tin and probably little amounts of sulfides from my gold dust. my total weight when I started was a little over 3 pounds of metal. I didn't strip the gold off the jewelry before beginning so I am unsure of my exact gold weight. I filtered the aqua regia through number 6 ashless filters. I now have a nice greenish brown solution with a spongy white/grey material on the bottom of my bucket which is holding approx 3 gallons of solution. the stuff on the bottom is approximately 2 inches thick. I tested both the bottom layer and the solution with ammonia hydroxide and the color turned dark blue. the white precipitate on the bottom turned dark brown/black. What process should I go to next since I don't want to lose the gold I know is in the solution?


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## kuma (Oct 17, 2011)

Hi Ffallan , how are tricks ?
I'm a noob so please bear with me , but my guess is that you might have formed metastannic acid. This would be due to the presence of the tin that you mentioned in your gold dust (and also potentialy in any solder on your jewelry) being mixed with the nitric acid in your aqua regia. By all accounts the stuff is a nightmare to deal with , I believe incineration is the way , but as I say I'm a noob so don't take my word for it.
All I can do is advise you to look up * metastannic acid* in the search function and see what it comes up with , it should give you an idea of what is is and how to deal with it. 
The presence of other base metals in both your jewelry and your gold dust might complicate things further , if not only to bring down the quality of your final product.
Others here will surley give you a more educated guess as to what it is and whats going on in your solution , but If I were you I would leave it be for now and read some until you know exactly what you are dealing with.
Once again I am a noob , I'm just sharing my noobie thoughts! :mrgreen: 
All the best with it and kind regards ,
Chris


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## Palladium (Oct 18, 2011)

Filter to remove the silver chloride then I think I would add copper and wait 2-3 days while stirring occasionally. Take the solids incinerate and start over with less materials.


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## ffallan (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks for the replies so far. When I had an assay done it was very high in silver 96 ounCes/ton. I think I could get a little money by going for the silver first and that would eliminate the silver out of solution. Could some of the white/grey substance in the bottom been precipitated by salts without adding any salt by myself? If I dryed it and put a torch to it bring out the silver and burn off the worthless material or do I need worry I have an explosion? I use a filtered breathing mask, face shield gloves and apron so the only thing I really fear is a fireball.


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## Palladium (Oct 18, 2011)

If you used ar you have no silver in the solution. That's why i said filter to recover the silver chloride and then cement any values with copper. Their is no telling what you have in that mix of metals. Copper will only cement the precious metals. Once you have them concentrated you can then move on to refining. You can’t melt silver chloride and get silver metal that way. It has to be converted to elemental silver. The white stuff in the bottom is your silver.


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## goldenchild (Oct 18, 2011)

ffallan,

Just to be clear. Are you saying that you are using AR on 3 pounds of karated aka "solid gold"? Or plated jewelry?


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## ffallan (Oct 18, 2011)

----3 lbs of plated jewelry, solid gold antiques (letter openers, trinkets, real old things passed down) computer fingers and flour gold/silver dust, the antiques worth more at an antique auction than dissolved I'm sure but my choice to try processing/refining. I used Aqua Ammonia to test. I have stannous chloride crystals from 2003? prob no good any longer. the only solder I found for tin was rosin core. I might need to buy some online. I'm in a small town with not many stores to choose from. Anyhow, I have nothing in the bottom of the bucket today, I decanted yesterday, I'm going to filter it today through #6 ashless then neutralize the solution. After dissolving in AR I had 10 1/2 gallons of solution and gooh in the bottoms of the buckets, I simmered, just below boiling, now the solution is down to about 4 gallons (yes it took a day and a half plus a bottle of propane). I will either make some money or lose and learn either way. I have 10 computer towers and 15 monitors to tear apart so I hope I get what I need to know before getting into them. (I am aware of the poisons in the monitors) My placer deposit ran out so I am getting into the chemistry for recovery. Please have patience with me everyone, just take my hand and help me along. This forum is the best and very good to learn from, I thank everyone that puts their time and effort into helping each other as best they can especially with folks like myself.


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## Palladium (Oct 18, 2011)

Your making it more troble than you know with all those metals and chemicals. Use copper to recover the values and go from there.


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## qst42know (Oct 18, 2011)

> I have stannous chloride crystals from 2003? prob no good any longer. the only solder I found for tin was rosin core.



You can test the stannous by mixing some up and trying it, and the solder can be separated from the flux by melting.


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## goldenchild (Oct 18, 2011)

ffallan said:


> Please have patience with me everyone, just take my hand and help me along. This forum is the best and very good to learn from, I thank everyone that puts their time and effort into helping each other as best they can especially with folks like myself.




An excellent place to learn the forum is but a place to get held by the hand it is not. I'm actually surprised you got as much help as you have. I suspected you were working with plated jewelry and not karated. Had you done some exploring on the forum you would have discovered that digesting plated material with AR is the total wrong way to go. I suggest you put everything you have so far away in a safe place and start studying. Find a copy of Hoke and read read read. Lazersteve also has some very good material and videos on his website. If not you will be asking questions every step of the way.


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## ffallan (Oct 19, 2011)

Sorry for my ignorance, putting the cart in front of the horse.


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## ffallan (Oct 20, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> ffallan said:
> 
> 
> > Please have patience with me everyone, just take my hand and help me along. This forum is the best and very good to learn from, I thank everyone that puts their time and effort into helping each other as best they can especially with folks like myself.
> ...


I got into this to take my mind off being in Iraq to keep my mind away from it, then I get a reply your surprised I have received any help at all thus far? And taking me by the hand is a paraphrase for show me the way and teach me. I also was a career Firefighter for 18 years until I lost half my leg in Iraq. Thank you for your kindness. You didn't ask me to fight for the country you live in so you don't fear leaving your house but I went. Some folks have given me respectable answers without attacking my posts, I thank those that have given me human replies. I won't be asking anything again. I don't need to fear being attacked verbally. I lived that for 16 months. "Refiners helping one another"???


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## Palladium (Oct 20, 2011)

Dam man !! Sorry to hear about your leg. I do appreciate your service as i'm sure others do here also. That being said i'm sure you will also have to respect the view that members here take on the forum when it comes to safety. You can just as easily lose your lungs, eyes, or even god forbid your life when you deal with these chemical reactions and gases produced from refining. I don't think anybody meant you any harm in anyway, just trying to make sure you understand the basics before you make mistakes that we have all made. They just don't give you guns and send you off to war without the proper training and guidance do they, No. We don't do the same thing here either. Stick around and feel free to ask all the questions you want and someone will help you i guarantee it. But first you have to learn the basics.


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## Harold_V (Oct 20, 2011)

What palladium said. For me, the most important message you should receive is that I am grateful for your service for our country. 

The point about not taking one by the hand is quite important in the scheme of things. It can be taken loosely, but that's not how it's intended to be interpreted. 

There's no shortage of people that come to this forum on a daily basis, each of which has no clue about processing. The vast majority have an entitlement attitude, as if they can demand and receive that which requires effort on their part, all without dedicating the effort. Unfortunately, they have read just enough on the subject to be dangerous, and rarely have read instructions that are in their best interest. Almost to the man, they think that dumping everything in a vessel and pouring on AR is the way it's done. The mess they create is often very difficult to unscramble, just as difficult as the attempt to re-direct their thinking such that they will abandon the idea of using AR without eliminating base metals first. 

You have been instructed to put away your material and read, until you understand the basics of refining. As cruel as that may appear to you, that's not how it should be interpreted. It's no different than playing a musical instrument. You can make all kinds of noise, but without proper learning, you can't make music. Here, we try to get you properly informed before you make the mistakes that can be dangerous, or, at the least, costly. 

Please reconsider your comments, and take advantage of the fact that you have at your disposal, over 100 years of refining experience on this forum. Please try to keep things in order, so you will enjoy success, safely. 

Harold


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## goldenchild (Oct 20, 2011)

ffallan said:


> goldenchild said:
> 
> 
> > ffallan said:
> ...




ffallan,

Let me start off by saying thank you. Although not directly involved in combat I too serve the U.S. army and know much of what goes on behind the scenes. You have clearly made great sacrifices for this country.

When I said I was surprised that you got as much help as you did, I meant in the level of detail that it was given. As Harold has pointed out we get many noobs that come here with an entitlement attitude. For the most part they are given advice to the tune that I gave you. My comments were in no way meant to be an attack and I apologise if it seemed that way. As we all know every family has different individuals with different personalities. I come off a little blunt but its harmless. Please stick around and join our "family". Learn this beautiful thing called refining.


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## ffallan (Oct 21, 2011)

I need to apologize for going off this a.m., Some days I need to realize everyone is not my enemy. I am still having a few issues. I shouldn't communicate until I see things normally. I have been reading the forum mostly all day and took the advice given. Just by adding copper the colors have changed in my solution to a brighter clearer green, that white substance I put in the sunlight and it turned to a dark amber. I know there is silver in it from the assay so I'm hoping that could be it. I haven't used any chemicals so I'm safe from myself. I am using a piece of copper waterpipe to stir the solution that I just leave in the bucket, it is now coated black which I read a little about today. I should have read ALL the posts before I started asking questions. When I get done with Hokes book I will ask my questions then if I have any. Before It was suggested to put copper in the solution it was more brownish than green, its now getting greener, like the color when I had dissolved what I knew was gold. Then I started adding the plated and gold concentrates and it turned it brownish green. I will be using stannous/tin test in the future to know for sure what I am working with besides my valuables. I ordered some tin from Lazersteve so I can make some. The Ammonia Hydroxide test is what we used in the FD HAZMAT kit to identify a metal. Again Sorry for my outburst on the forum. I realize you guys are just looking out for my safety. Hopefully I will find myself again one day so I don't cause these kinds of way off interruptions again. Hope this all blends together and makes sense my concentration is misbehaving.


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## nickvc (Oct 21, 2011)

Ffalan I think that last post proves that you will be around here for a long time and I hope that is indeed the case.
Many noobs have similar responses from the older members of the forum and don't take the hint, were not here to help people into dangerous situations without them fully understanding what exactly they may be facing or how to deal with it.
Sometimes perhaps we quash the urge to even try refining but if that's the case I think we would all prefer that rather than someone injuring themselves or possibly worse. As you read and learn more about refining perhaps you will see why we react as we do, it's not because we don't care but because we do!
This really is the only place to be if you wish to learn refining and processing of precious metals, and we really are a helpful bunch as i hope you will discover, I hope to read in the near future of your successes in this field and see the pictures of your first buttons.


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## ffallan (Oct 23, 2011)

I dissolved just gold in AR today, the solution color is the color as if you took an overdose of vitamin B, do you think I am on the right path? no stannous yet. I am buying some solder tomorrow and make some to test it. but all I dissolved was gold dust and it turned very yellow almost a goldish yellow. Imagine that. Would anything else make it be so yellow? I know, I will have stannous tomorrow to make sure. just wondering if there is any other metal that looks like gold make it a yellow solution. If I hadn't of dropped my phone in the water today I would have taken pics.


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## qst42know (Oct 23, 2011)

The dark yellow sounds good. When you have your stannous ready you should get a dark black result, dilute a droplet of your solution with a couple drops of water and it should be a nice shade of purple.

Iron can be a bit of a chameleon as far as colors produced but stannous will sort that out.


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## ffallan (Oct 23, 2011)

purple. will stannous test any metal in solution, or just the metal, chemically speaking, and find out what it is? Is this test only for this group of metals? I had some other material that I thought was fine pyrite/black sand with fine specks of quartz, I put a drop of stannous on the material and it was Orange? I have a few buckets of it. For now I have a little work to do. I will post pics when I slow down. I have alot of this material and more sitting on the ground. I could have alot of money overnight if this works out. Many thanks to the forum.


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## qst42know (Oct 23, 2011)

I haven't done anything with black sands but you shouldn't mix it with the relatively simple other forms of urban gold. You are just complicating the work. Keep each type separate to process by the most effective method.


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## niteliteone (Oct 23, 2011)

ffallan,
Greetings and welcome to the Best place on the web  
The Stannous Chloride is “ONLY” for testing “LIQUID SOLUTIONS” for precious metals content.
Have you read Hokes book or the Gold Refining Forum Handbook volumes 1 & 2?
They contain almost ALL the information you are asking others to tell to you.
Here is an example on the stannous chloride solution.

Page 9 of the “Gold Refining Forum Handbook”
16. SnCl2= Stannous Chloride= Used to test solutions for precious metals. Made by
dissolving metallic tin in hot muriatic acid. Loses strength when stored.
Positive color test as follows:
Purple/Black color is Gold in solution, the darker the spot the more Gold.
Yellow/Brown color is Palladium in solution, the darker the spot the more Palladium.
Light/Dark Rose color is Platinum in solution, the darker the spot the more Platinum.

I haven't seen that anyone has mentioned to you to Read, Read and then Read some more. There is a vast knowledge base here to assist you as situations arise but they also expect "US" to learn the basics first. 
Hoke's book IS a vast knowledge base of information just waiting for You to learn and the Forum Handbooks are full of useful information. you can download the PDF's and print what you need to keep handy.

In Palladium's signature line he has links to these useful downloads.

Tom C.

P.S. Please don't add acids to organic material (ie the concentrates) until you know all materials and how the acids will react with them. The reactions of some organic materials can KILL YOU.


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## Alentia (Oct 24, 2011)

ffallan,

You have jumped the horse before the sled. Next time follow the simple (short) process:

1. Damp all junk and gold below 10K into "glass vessel" and ad HNO3 + Water (50/50) and let Silver, Copper and other base metal and junk to dissolve
2. Siphon and store liquid in separate container. (You will leach Silver from there after)
3. Add AR to the "glass vessel" to dissolve remaining crumbled gold at the bottom
4. Evaporate HNO3
5. Add SMB to precipitate gold
6. Dilute Solution in step #2 with water (50/50) and precipitate Silver with Copper Wire or Pipe

There are many more mid steps you have to take, very well described in Hoke's book and on this forum. Steps above give you the logic of the process, not the instructions, do not blindly follow them.

For karat gold above 10K you have to inquart your gold before getting to step #1 or you will end up in the same situation you are now.


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## cashmoney (Oct 26, 2011)

hello all I have a question. Whats more profitable? reverse electroplating or acid leaching? I have made quite a few purchases on ebay for gp and gf. Im currently building a case out of plexiglass and avent to extract any nasty stuff I have most of the equipment and ready to go but which one to start and rely on for some steady income? Im finding out the chemicals for acid leaching are abit on the pricy side vs the electroplating (reverse). I came here because most here are experts in this field. Thanks abunch all.


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## philddreamer (Oct 26, 2011)

Profitable or economical? For the GF & GP I use the sulphuric cell; to me is more economical & faster. Go to Lazersteves website & check his videos.

Continue reading, all the answers to your questions are here. Do a search on the sulphuric cell, there's a lot of information on it.

Take care & be safe!

Phil


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## cashmoney (Oct 26, 2011)

thanks alot Phil but 1 small question. Can you reuse the sulphuric acid over and over again? :shock:


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## philddreamer (Oct 26, 2011)

Yes you can! 8)


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## goldenchild (Oct 26, 2011)

cashmoney said:


> hello all I have a question. Whats more profitable? reverse electroplating or acid leaching? I have made quite a few purchases on ebay for gp and gf. Im currently building a case out of plexiglass and avent to extract any nasty stuff I have most of the equipment and ready to go but which one to start and rely on for some steady income? Im finding out the chemicals for acid leaching are abit on the pricy side vs the electroplating (reverse). I came here because most here are experts in this field. Thanks abunch all.



Before you go buy any more stuff I would sit down and read Hoke. You may find that this isn't even for you. As it stands you have a bunch of equipment that you have no clue what to do with. Slow down and do more research.


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## sena (Oct 27, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> cashmoney said:
> 
> 
> > hello all I have a question. Whats more profitable? reverse electroplating or acid leaching? I have made quite a few purchases on ebay for gp and gf. Im currently building a case out of plexiglass and avent to extract any nasty stuff I have most of the equipment and ready to go but which one to start and rely on for some steady income? Im finding out the chemicals for acid leaching are abit on the pricy side vs the electroplating (reverse). I came here because most here are experts in this field. Thanks abunch all.
> ...



My experience when i was starting in this forum , i was said to read the Hokes book, my mind was full of searching data for xray flim recovering , were i couldn't find about it ,but much more about what silver is ,after a week full of reading i started using nitric acid leaching and converted silver chloride though it was a hard way , then i was helped by members to go Naoh process , which was far more easier than nitric, but without the help from forum members i wouldn't have succeeded 
recovering Silver , thanks to the forum members, but reading the book and doing some home work is worth.


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## cashmoney (Oct 27, 2011)

hmmm ok anyone have the download for Hokes book???? And trust me I have done quite abit of homework and met some chemist about this. Some see potential and some see problems. Its the acids thats alil on the scary side and I refuse to use sodium cyanide. Cant be rich if your dead! Thanks all for the great advice


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## niteliteone (Oct 27, 2011)

cashmoney said:


> hmmm ok anyone have the download for Hokes book???? And trust me I have done quite abit of homework and met some chemist about this. Some see potential and some see problems. Its the acids thats alil on the scary side and I refuse to use sodium cyanide. Cant be rich if your dead! Thanks all for the great advice



Look in the signature line of palladium or claudie for the links to the downloads
Tom C.


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## Claudie (Oct 27, 2011)

There is a link in my signature.


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## Harold_V (Oct 28, 2011)

cashmoney said:


> hmmm ok anyone have the download for Hokes book???? And trust me I have done quite abit of homework and met some chemist about this. Some see potential and some see problems. Its the acids thats alil on the scary side and I refuse to use sodium cyanide. Cant be rich if your dead! Thanks all for the great advice


That a person is a chemist is no guarantee that they will have knowledge of the refining process. I dare say that the vast majority do not, and that shouldn't come as a surprise. It may be beyond the scope of the work they do. When you seek information in that regard, that's exactly the people you must talk with; refiners. 

Refining isn't a matter of making a particular decision that will be applied across the board. Each type of material lends itself best to certain processes. Some of them may involve cyanide, and, indeed, there may be occasions where cyanide is the only viable process. Keep an open mind as you study, and try to learn and understand the benefits of every type of operation, so you'll be able to better judge those that will be best suited to your objective. 

Harold


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## philddreamer (Oct 28, 2011)

Harold wrote:
"That a person is a chemist is no guarantee that they will have knowledge of the refining process."

That its true; a fellow prospector I met on my one of my trips to CA. is a chemist, & the work he did was on water treatment plants. He understands the terminology & reactions when it comes to the different acids & chemicals & how they work, but he doesn't have a clue how to use them when it comes to refining PM's. 

Phil


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## cashmoney (Oct 28, 2011)

thank you all for the insight. Now this is why I came here. When I met with 4 chemists it was about safty and all the nessacery precautions I would haVe to take. Now I see why more come here than finishing dot com. I have to admit I think you are ALL right. Im downloading hoke right now. Again Thank you all.


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