# GF watches



## user 12009 (Oct 10, 2011)

I am starting to advertise that I buy gold filled things. I have no questions on things that are marked GF. My question is on old pocket watches. A long time ago someone at a swap meet told me that old pocket watches say "15 Year Warranty" (or whatever year) instead of GF. The higher the year the thicker the gold. 

I have been offered several old watches so I called two refineries that I use and neither one of them heard of this. 

I look on feebay and many also give "15 year" or "20 year" 

I don't want to spend $180 and find out I just bought gold plated.

Need some opinions.
thanks


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## kuma (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi Cyberdan , how are tricks ?
I hope your well!
I came across a site a while ago with basic charts that spells out different thickness' of both gold filled and electroplated gold on everyday items , and their respective 'estimated durability in years'.
My guess is that your question is a wise one! 8) 
If I were you , I'd seriously try to find out if the watches you reffer to are indeed gold filled , as apparently a watch with a gold electroplate of 5.0 - 20.0 microns has an 'estimated durability in years' of 10 to 35 years.
I can't say how acurate this information is , or isn't , but I do know that someone will undoubtedly call me out on this if it is dodgy info!! :mrgreen: 

http://www.artisanplating.com/articles/goldfilled.html#thickness

I sincerley hope that this can be of use ,
All the very best and kind regards ,
Chris


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## user 12009 (Oct 10, 2011)

Chris, thanks for the info. I will check it out. Dan

P.S. Love the channel islands, Sark especially.


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## kuma (Oct 10, 2011)

cyberdan said:


> P.S. Love the channel islands, Sark especially.



Ah , nice! Sark is a stunning island , doesn't get much more peacefull than that! 
If your ever back this way , drop me a line I'll take you fishing and pint(s)! 8) 
All the best for now and kind regards ,
Chris


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## user 12009 (Oct 10, 2011)

kuma said:


> cyberdan said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. Love the channel islands, Sark especially.
> ...


Chris, that I will do. I still remember it well and it has been 25 years and I bet it has not changed a bit. I still get the Sark Newsletter every few weeks.

Dan


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## kuma (Oct 11, 2011)

Ah sound for sure! The last time I was in Sark was before my eldest son Jon was born , so over 9 years now , but I do know that cars and motorbikes are still totaly banned! 8) 
Was that link of any use to you in the end?
All the best for now and kind regards ,
Chris


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## qst42know (Oct 11, 2011)

Watches both pocket watches, and wrist watches are one category of gold filled where the collectible value can far exceed the gold content.

You don't want to recover $5 in gold from a $200 watch. 

Pay close attention to condition, and do your homework on each piece.


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## Claudie (Oct 11, 2011)

I have one that just reads "Warranted" any idea what that means?


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## kuma (Oct 11, 2011)

Claudie said:


> I have one that just reads "Warranted" any idea what that means?



Hi Claudie , how are things ?
I just found this ;
'' You may see on some cases the word "Guaranteed" (see left) or "Warranted". This is the manufacturers guarantee of quality and is an indication that the gold filled case will last at least as long as the guarantee before the fill wears through. The higher years, the better the quality. ''
You can see the site at ; http://www.antique-pocket-watch.com/pocket-watch-case.html
I hope that this can be of some use!
All the best and kind regards ,
Chris

[Edited to remove second posting of image above , my mistake!]


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## Claudie (Oct 11, 2011)

Thank you for the reply. I have read that before, but I can't seem to come across anything that explains what it means if it does not state a certain amount of years.


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## kuma (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm just guessing here , but when the watch was new it would more than likley have came with a printed guarantee. 
I'm sure that this is where you would find out how long the watch was guaranteed for , furthermore giving you an idea of the expected thickness of the gold.
I'm thinking that the word 'Warranted' engraved on the watch might aswell read 'please reffer to owners guarantee for further details'.
Just a thought chief!
All the best and kind regards ,
Chris


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## Claudie (Oct 11, 2011)

It is dated from the 1890s. It has the inscription "Merry Christmas Gracie Allen 1899"
I think I remember reading somewhere that said Warranted all by itself usually meant 14K but I can seem to find that information again.

EDIT: I misquoted that inscription. It actually reads "Grace Allen DEC 25 99"


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## TXWolfie (Oct 11, 2011)

Claudie said:


> It is dated from the 1890s. It has the inscription "Merry Christmas Gracie Allen 1899"
> I think I remember reading somewhere that said Warranted all by itself usually meant 14K but I can seem to find that information again.


I would run that serial number on it, sometimes watches that have numbers stamped on it can be traced back to its original family or individual. The large auction houses can probably help out like christy's or them on that standard. There might be some good history on that watch and it might be of more value alive then refined


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## kuma (Oct 11, 2011)

Hey Claudie ,
I've been looking all over to try and find out what I can for you , I'm struggling!
I'm getting seriously mixed messages! :shock: 
So far I have seen the term ''warranted'' used to describe either : Gold filled surface gauranteed to last for the expected life of the piece , or solid karat gold with *warranted* being used to describe the process employed to create the piece , and there is also *warranted* gold plated china pieces and such.
I have found a thread which talks about warranted gold on a fountain pen forum ; http://tinyurl.com/3fzohfr
I'm intrigued , so I'll keep looking! :mrgreen: 
Will let you know how I get on ,
Kind regards ,
Chris

This just in ; ''If the case says anything about being "guaranteed", especially for some number of years, then it is almost certainly gold filled. This includes cases that are marked "permanent" or talk about how they are made of "two solid gold plates over a fine hard metal". Also, being marked "Warranted" generally means that it is gold filled as does markings about being "reinforced gold". 
Source ; http://tinyurl.com/5rfgrn6
This warranted lark is most confusing! 

[Edited to correct link]


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## kuma (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi Claudie ,
I've tried to identify your watch with the serial number visible on the case , but apparently ( according to http://tinyurl.com/6kr5obq ) this is of no use.
If you can get the serial number on the inside of the watch (details on the movement) , we might be able to find something , but from what I've read be mega carefull opening it just incase it's super pricey!
I don't believe that it's the case with your watch , but just for refference , sometimes watch makers and repairers would 'scratch' some numbers on the inside of the outer case when repairing or maintaining a watch. These numbers (sometimes invoice numbers) would help them know which watches that they have worked with before and what they had done to them , enabling them from the outset to quickly evaluate what any potential problems with that partucular piece might be , ect.
All the best and kind regards ,
Chris

[Edited for clarity]


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## Claudie (Oct 11, 2011)

The name of the movement is Tempus. It sounds like you are running into the same things I did. I haven't researched it for awhile but I have put a lot of time in it in the past. The case is engraved with love birds. I found some Tempus watch makers in England but nothing that even looked close to this one. I do thank you for putting time into this, but if you give up, I completely understand why. I am waiting for a pocket watch expert to join the forum.... :|


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## user 12009 (Oct 11, 2011)

Kuma, thanks those links really helped. Even though my refinery knows nothing about GF pocket watches I will still buy as scrap.

Dan


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## kuma (Oct 11, 2011)

Claudie said:


> The name of the movement is Tempus. It sounds like you are running into the same things I did. I haven't researched it for awhile but I have put a lot of time in it in the past. The case is engraved with love birds. I found some Tempus watch makers in England but nothing that even looked close to this one. I do thank you for putting time into this, but if you give up, I completely understand why. I am waiting for a pocket watch expert to join the forum.... :|



That's no worries Claudie! I'll have another look about tomorow , it's been a fastinating learning experience for me! A pocket watch expert would deffinatly be handy , although I'm not to sure of what he would think about what goes on with pocket watches around here , :lol: 



cyberdan said:


> Kuma, thanks those links really helped. Even though my refinery knows nothing about GF pocket watches I will still buy as scrap.
> 
> Dan



Cool , it's good to know that it was of use , I'm starting to save up different types of materials to practice and learn with and GF is on my list to find!
All the very best and kind regards for now guy's ,
Chris


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## qst42know (Oct 11, 2011)

The confusion that is caused by an item marked simply Warranted or Guaranteed is a possible reason why gold filled was later legally specified by karat and percent, but that's just my guess. It certainly doesn't tell you anything about how much gold was applied. I have read some pocket watches were marked 14k and the documentation or a paper label mentioned "gold filled". You don't often find any paper with a pocket watch.


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## Palladium (Oct 11, 2011)

Here's something from around that time period that i found interesting. Not saying it will help, but it might give you some insight into their techniques and marketing. http://www.scribd.com/doc/66784203/Gold-and-Silversmiths-1911


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## nickvc (Oct 12, 2011)

While it might not give you how good the plating or % of gold on your watch is try researching through auctioneers. Fellows and Sons here in the UK have regular watch auctions and details are available through their website for past and present sales, I'm sure there are others around the world doing similar things, this might at least give a guide to value.


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## FLaAntiqueExpert (Nov 6, 2011)

"warranted" by itself or "warranted "XX" years means gold filled.
"Warranted to assay" or "WARRANTED 14k" 99 percetn of the time means solid 14k gold.

But as noted above, a couple of companies in the late 1800's marked their cases "14K" and they were not.

Bottom line" Use head and your hands. 95% of gold cases will bend or "give" when you try to squeeze or bend them.

FLA


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## Claudie (Nov 6, 2011)

Thank you for that information. Would you know what the Tiger next to it means?


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## Claudie (Nov 6, 2011)

By the way welcome to the forum. :lol:


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## kuma (Nov 6, 2011)

Hi Claudie , how are tricks ?
I hope that all is well!
I'm so sorry , I was going to post your image of your watch on a watch collectors forum a while ago , I completly forgot!  
I'll do that now before it slips again! :mrgreen: 
All the best for now and kind regards ,
Chris


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## Claudie (Nov 6, 2011)

Thank you Chris! I used to have a box of old Gold plated/filled watch cases but I can't seem to find them now. :|


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## kuma (Nov 6, 2011)

Hi Claudie , no worries!
I have put out a description and your picture on a couple of watch forums looking for a better I.D. on it and have asked again with regards to the solid gold/gold filled question.
Ive arleady had one reply saying that it is "definitley gold filled" , and "It's hard to say without seeing all of the movement who made it-it looks like a 7j. Perhaps Seth Thomas, or it could be Swiss".
I would love to get my hands on some gold filled myself , just something else to try at some point! :mrgreen: 
I do have what looks like a very thickly plated wrist watch that I've had knocking around for years , I look forward to seeing the foil off of that! 8) 
I also have a sandwich bag nearly full of what look like plated glasses/spectacle frames , wether or not they are I really don't know just yet and theres no way for me to test just now due to lack of chemicals (directly related to the fact that I have nowhere at home to safely store or use them  )
I'll let you know what else comes up! 8) 
All the best and kind regards ,
Chris


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## qst42know (Nov 6, 2011)

> I do have what looks like a very thickly plated wrist watch that I've had knocking around for years , I look forward to seeing the foil off of that!



The same rule applies with wrist watches. Do check you aren't disolving more value than you will ever recover. There are several filled wrist watches the price of which would make your jaw drop.


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## kuma (Nov 6, 2011)

qst42know said:


> > I do have what looks like a very thickly plated wrist watch that I've had knocking around for years , I look forward to seeing the foil off of that!
> 
> 
> 
> The same rule applies with wrist watches. Do check you aren't disolving more value than you will ever recover. There are several filled wrist watches the price of which would make your jaw drop.



Hello , how are things ?
I hope your well!
Your right , I havn't actualy tried to look up the potential value of the watch that I have , mainly just because it doen't work propperly (you have to give it a knock to get it going) , and it is a fairly plain design , nothing to *exciting* looking.
Now that you mention it though , I'll dig out the movement at some point and google it out of interest!
All the best and kind regards ,
Chris


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## kuma (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi all , how are things ?
I hope all is well! 
Claudie , an update on what's been said about your watch on the watch forums ;

"US Horological Trademark Index by Kurtis Meyers Page 208

Illinois Watch Case Co. Elgin Illinois ( http://tinyurl.com/c5s4276 )

Trade Mark Elgin Tiger Filed: Aug 10 1893 Use Since: June 1 1887
Claim: watch cases "

Followed by ;

"I am not sure, that this trade mark is from the Illinois WCCo... in the Meyers book the trade mark is "ELGIN TIGER", not "TIGER" with a tiger."

,.....

"Clock & Watch Trademark Index of European Origin by Karl Kochmann Page 769 Trade Name Tempus Charles Schiller Chaux-de-Fonds 1894"

,.....

"There is from C. Schiller only a "Tempus" trade mark, but nothing with a tiger !"

I'm not too sure if this will be of any use trying to identify your watch , but I hope that it is! :mrgreen: 
Wishing you all the best and sending my kind regards ,
Chris


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## Claudie (Nov 12, 2011)

Thank you for taking the time to research this. I did find a picture of the Elgin Tiger 





http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1924980

It is different but maybe it's just and earlier or later version of the same thing.


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## kuma (Nov 14, 2011)

Hello , how are things today?
I hope everybodys O.K.!  
Claudie , no worries chief! If anything else comes up on the watch forums I'll be sure to let you know , :mrgreen: 
Judging by your image I'd say that you were close , I'm inclined to agree with your thinking , it looks pretty darn similar , if it's not it has to be close to copyright infringement! :lol: 
All the best and kind regards , 
Chris


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## benign01 (Dec 8, 2011)

Trust me, someone has lost a lot of money, melting and assaying pocket watches, then selling them at a loss .been there, done that!!


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