# catalogue of pgm - Low Grade Bread Loaf’s/GM Identif



## pgm (Feb 5, 2011)

Hi 

i have this catalogue, i should be getting another one very soon....i am also making my own cat log, my catalog will be the cat's i am processing. 

This catalogue is called auction core....hope it helps someone


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## jimdoc (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks, looks interesting.
Does anybody know if the pgm amounts stated look correct?

Jim


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## pgm (Feb 5, 2011)

jimdoc said:


> Thanks, looks interesting.
> Does anybody know if the pgm amounts stated look correct?
> 
> Jim



i have done some testing, this really depends on the cat used....if the cat is heavly used then it will have lost some pgm but should be 20% movement i think max


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## Ocean (Feb 6, 2011)

Handy doc.
Thanks!


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## Platdigger (Feb 6, 2011)

Those figures being in troy ounces is in error.
They simply took these pics and figures from the other catalouge you posted and scewed them.
The lettering on the breadloaf cats could be usefull, if accurate.


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## pgm (Feb 6, 2011)

Platdigger said:


> Those figures being in troy ounces is in error.
> They simply took these pics and figures from the other catalouge you posted and scewed them.
> The lettering on the breadloaf cats could be usefull, if accurate.



i understand what you are saying, i also thought the same thing but i posted it for the bread loaf codes....which i did not find anywhere else..hope it helps


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## greatgems (Feb 6, 2011)

No this one has more cats in it then another one and they do seem acurate because it states one of the Honda ones has about 175 bucks worth in they are selling for 158 right now from the wholesales that sell core alot of them make sense like all the merc so they have 25 to 50 bucks more of pm in them then most core guys sell them for explains my past results


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## kdaddy (Feb 6, 2011)

Harold is going to rip your face off. :twisted:


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## skippy (Feb 6, 2011)

Greatgems, there's probably some good observations encrypted in your post that can only be deciphered with the application of punctuation.


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## greatgems (Feb 6, 2011)

Sorry iPhone post


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## Harold_V (Feb 6, 2011)

kdaddy said:


> Harold is going to rip your face off. :twisted:


itwouldbeniceifheusedpunctuationharold
*
Will they ever learn?*


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## Oz (Feb 7, 2011)

Spelling and punctuation oh my! 

I recently replied to a post that had one letter off in spelling. It made the difference as to whether or not there was a serious risk of mercury poisoning or not in the procedure being used.


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## bubba (Apr 13, 2011)

I used the numbers on this thing and almost died laughing. First off, you can tell if someone is in the PGM business because they describe values based in ppm, it is the industry standard, and if a 4 dot saturn has $223 worth of Pt. then I lost about $135,000 last month, lol.


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## jimdoc (Apr 13, 2011)

Bubba,
Do you know of any identification charts that list correct amounts of PGMs?
It seems that most of them that turn up are wrong or misleading.

Jim


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## Lou (Apr 14, 2011)

bubba said:


> I used the numbers on this thing and almost died laughing. First off, you can tell if someone is in the PGM business because they describe values based in ppm, it is the industry standard, and if a 4 dot saturn has $223 worth of Pt. then I lost about $135,000 last month, lol.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 14, 2011)

bubba said:


> I used the numbers on this thing and almost died laughing. First off, you can tell if someone is in the PGM business because they describe values based in ppm, it is the industry standard, and if a 4 dot saturn has $223 worth of Pt. then I lost about $135,000 last month, lol.



For general information how many cat's would this figure represent?


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## skippy (Apr 14, 2011)

There's also this one that's been floating around.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24745162/Catalogue-PGM-CONTENT-1-of-Catalytic-Converters]

It lists content as a percent
i.e. Pt 0.181 is (0.00181/1) or 1810 ppm weight.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 14, 2011)

I think those are the same list.


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## kjavanb123 (Apr 14, 2011)

i looked at the numbers of PGMs in some of these cats, doesn't seem realistic, 9 grams of Pt?!?? here in middle east most of the cats get removed from the cars first thing they buy the car, it's sad as far as envinroment concerns, but good for refiners :-D

for instance this cat i bought for $20 each, i tried 4 of them once and could only produce 0.86 grams Pt, but that was not all of it since my pump failed in the middle of process so a lot of solution got lost. The trader is going to give me the slightly similar cat but original one for $90. I am curios how much profit i can make from one cat?

Thanks
Kev


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## skippy (Apr 14, 2011)

Barren, I wouldn't call them the same. The one posted earlier seems to have misappropriated the same numbers in the one I posted. They turned decimals of a percent by weight into a decimal of a troy ounce. Which is obviously quite different: 0.2% of 1000 grams of ceramic would be 2 grams of a PGM whereas 0.2 troy ounces would be over six grams. The values I infer from my interpretation seem in line with the pricing such as it is.

To Kjavan's point, I say that it is important to note that cat con makers tailor the amount of metals needed to the emissions standards of the country. Mideastern cats might be a lot lower.


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## bubba (Apr 16, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> bubba said:
> 
> 
> > I used the numbers on this thing and almost died laughing. First off, you can tell if someone is in the PGM business because they describe values based in ppm, it is the industry standard, and if a 4 dot saturn has $223 worth of Pt. then I lost about $135,000 last month, lol.
> ...



I just threw this figure off the top of my head, all of the numbers I ran using this catalog were high, very high. For example a 4 dot saturn, should average 1200 ppm pt., 700 ppm. pd., and 250 ppm rh. that would make the one in his picture worth 3 times as much as the ones we cut everyday. 
As far as general figures, a semi load of converters is costing us around $250,000. so thats around 3,300 pieces, i guess you could say an average price would be about $75.00 each. But you will go broke quick buying cats on averages.


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## bubba (Apr 16, 2011)

jimdoc said:


> Bubba,
> Do you know of any identification charts that list correct amounts of PGMs?
> It seems that most of them that turn up are wrong or misleading.
> 
> Jim


 
Well Jim, I know of one list that is correct. It took me 15 years, and 2,000 or 3,000 hours to compile. 
If you were paying for the assays, you might be able to duplicate it for around $500,000.


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## michaelj7 (Jul 2, 2011)

skippy said:


> There's also this one that's been floating around.
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/24745162/Catalogue-PGM-CONTENT-1-of-Catalytic-Converters]
> 
> ...



Can someone help me here?
How do I figure out a converter is worth from these charts?
I have spent days on end trying to figure these ppm's out,
and trying to correlate them to the current price.


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## skippy (Jul 2, 2011)

I wouldn't make any life decisions over that document. I can't say if it is accurate or not, but like I said 
if it says 0.181 beside say Pt, and you have a converter with 1000g of catalyst you get
0.181 percent = 1800 ppm
(1800 part platinum/1 000 000 parts catalyst)*1000 grams of catalyst=1.8 grams of platinum. 
(1.8grams/31.1grams per troy ounce) * (x dollars per troy ounce) = purported value in platinum per converter
That's what the numbers seem to imply.


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## michaelj7 (Jul 8, 2011)

skippy said:


> I wouldn't make any life decisions over that document.



With all the amount of Fiats that were listed on the original document, I wonder if these were all from Europe?


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## skippy (Jul 8, 2011)

Yeah, I think that's likely the case that the document is/was geared toward European buyers. There is PSA=Peugeot and Opel instead of GM. No doubt a lot of cats in that document are seen very rarely in North America.


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## skippy (Jul 28, 2011)

I've got some results which tend to support one piece of data from the catalogue. http://www.scribd.com/doc/24745162/Catalogue-PGM-CONTENT-1-of-Catalytic-Converters
I bought 11 4-dot AC catalytic converters. I recovered only traces of palladium, 15 grams of platinum, and an as of yet undetermined amount of rhodium. The ceramic material was subjected to hot concentrated sulfuric acid, as well as two HCl-Cl2 leaches and a liberal number of rinses. The crude cementation of the leached material was purified by hot washing with HCl. Then with nitric acid to get the palladium out. Then the concentrate was treated with HCl-H2O2 to get the platinum dissolved, leaving a rhodium rich residue, which I have yet to quantify. The lack of palladium, and the amount of platinum tends to confirm for me the data as the numbers for the 1080gram ceramic (alphabeticized under Daewoo, top of page 3) are 0.131% platinum and 0.013% rhodium, which works out to 15.6 grams of platinum for 11 converters. My 15 grams is likely still not pure but I'll have a bit more coming from some filters that need incinerating, and colloidal values that need to settle, so I still expect to be in the right neighborhood. 

Unfortunately I have overpaid for these suckers. I felt compelled to offer a fellow who travels around my region, and buys hundreds of converters a month, 110$ per 4-dot converter, as that was one of the higher values that I found cruising the internet for core buyer's prices on 4-dot cats. The cats I got were 4-dots with AC MADE IN USA stamped on them, like is highlighted in the picture in the catalogue. I wonder if some decanners are paying less and accepting a mix, or screen out these particular cats into another grouping. The catalogue also shows 4 dots with a different analysis, and a large amount of palladium, but I don't know how one would tell them apart or the expected relative frequency one might run into them. Unfortunately one can lose a lot of money fast by paying 110 for a converter with only 90 of metals in it. Of course, this all supposes that I have done a good and complete extraction, and haven't lost much metal along the way, which I will concede is possible, though I think I have enough experience with stannous chloride testing, with suspended ultra fine pgms to know if I am losing significant metals during processing and handling My leaching seems quite exhaustive too. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/CATALYTIC-CONVERTER-SCRAP-PLATINUM-RECOVERY-/390333217673?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.OPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D180700425856%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D1671916418607975936
As you can see, I am not the only one in the world who has been led to believe that these have more than $90 in metals in them. Mine were, as far as i can tell, just like this one. 

Another point that I'll raise is these converters had nickel in the catalyst, enough to make my solution from the concentrated sulfuric extraction very noticeably green. Strange?

If anyone can shed any light on this whole troubling matter it would be great. DId a sharp fellow put one over me when I bought those cats and save me a crappy grade of 4-dots, or am I incompetent at recovery, or is it that the cat market is totally insane? Is it all of the things? :x Anyhow I'll stop my ranting now.


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## Joeforbes (Jul 30, 2011)

skippy said:


> I've got some results which tend to support one piece of data from the catalogue. http://www.scribd.com/doc/24745162/Catalogue-PGM-CONTENT-1-of-Catalytic-Converters
> I bought 11 4-dot AC catalytic converters. I recovered only traces of palladium, 15 grams of platinum, and an as of yet undetermined amount of rhodium. The ceramic material was subjected to hot concentrated sulfuric acid, as well as two HCl-Cl2 leaches and a liberal number of rinses. The crude cementation of the leached material was purified by hot washing with HCl. Then with nitric acid to get the palladium out. Then the concentrate was treated with HCl-H2O2 to get the platinum dissolved, leaving a rhodium rich residue, which I have yet to quantify. The lack of palladium, and the amount of platinum tends to confirm for me the data as the numbers for the 1080gram ceramic (alphabeticized under Daewoo, top of page 3) are 0.131% platinum and 0.013% rhodium, which works out to 15.6 grams of platinum for 11 converters. My 15 grams is likely still not pure but I'll have a bit more coming from some filters that need incinerating, and colloidal values that need to settle, so I still expect to be in the right neighborhood.
> 
> Unfortunately I have overpaid for these suckers. I felt compelled to offer a fellow who travels around my region, and buys hundreds of converters a month, 110$ per 4-dot converter, as that was one of the higher values that I found cruising the internet for core buyer's prices on 4-dot cats. The cats I got were 4-dots with AC MADE IN USA stamped on them, like is highlighted in the picture in the catalogue. I wonder if some decanners are paying less and accepting a mix, or screen out these particular cats into another grouping. The catalogue also shows 4 dots with a different analysis, and a large amount of palladium, but I don't know how one would tell them apart or the expected relative frequency one might run into them. Unfortunately one can lose a lot of money fast by paying 110 for a converter with only 90 of metals in it. Of course, this all supposes that I have done a good and complete extraction, and haven't lost much metal along the way, which I will concede is possible, though I think I have enough experience with stannous chloride testing, with suspended ultra fine pgms to know if I am losing significant metals during processing and handling My leaching seems quite exhaustive too.
> ...



I just bought 9 converters about the same size for $270. $30 each. I'm guessing, however, that this guy gets top dollar for his converters if he travels the country buying them. He probably sells them to a refinery that only makes small profit margins and deals with huge volume, recovering nearly 100% of the contents inside (nickle, steal, alumina, etc.. included). 

I don't think you got one put over on you, you just bought the cats from the wrong source. Just my 2 cents.


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## skippy (Jul 30, 2011)

I think you may be right and maybe somewhere along the line I made a mistake and lost some metals somehow or other. My ego tells me that there was something wrong with the cats I bought though. :lol: I actually also had more palladium than I thought, and my nitric solution wasn't concentrated enough to dissolve the palladium, it turns out I had a couple grams or so out of my 15 that was palladium. Gosh darn embarrasing. I'm going to give processing cats another try before I toss in my hat, this time I'll get an assay though. To me, the important thing wasn't how much I paid for the cats this particular time, but to see how my process pans out on one particular grade, then I could figure out how I stand. 

To me though it seems fairly easy to dissolve the majority of the platinum and palladium, especially when done after a sulfuric acid roast, which really opens up the pores. All I can think of is that I lost a lot through some stupid mistake at some point.


Unfortunately, it's hard to get cats without paying top dollar here. I think I just need to move! 8)


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## Platdigger (Jul 30, 2011)

"especially when done after a sulfuric acid roast," ??

How did you recover pgms taken up by this roast?


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## skippy (Jul 30, 2011)

Roast the material with sulfuric 1:1 by weight, dissolve the cake with water. 
Separate the solution from the ceramic and then precipitate with iron or zinc. 
I used copper flashed welding wire I had on hand. Then I proceded to the chlorine leaching. 
In my next trial I won't bother washing out the metals oxidized by the sulfuric roast first, I'll just chlorine leach the cake which will make things much simpler and quicker. Doing this would also take advantage of acidity provided by the substantial amounts of aluminum sulfate that are made in the roasting.

It seems like too much carbon can interfere with the process, as there was almost no dissolved PGMs from the roast. The lack of PGM from the roasting prompted me to believe there was no palladium, but the palladium did in fact turn up later.
There were a few cats that had heavy carbon loading, so much that the SO3 didn't oxidize it all, like I have seen before. 
I don't think this carbon affected the later chlorine leaching (ie carbon values robbing), but it is a possibility. 

Another thing that worries me is there was HCl evolved when I mixed the crush ceramic with the conc. sulfuric. It seemed strange to me, although road salt could explain this, especially as one of the cats had rusted through. Maybe residual HCl could have caused loss through PGM volatilization, although I wouldn't expect there to be more than traces, and the sulfuric should be effectively driving chlorides out. The glass wool I use to isolate my roasting vessel from the atmosphere didn't have any PGM in it either, and I would expect it to trap at least some of any volatilized metals.


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## bubba (Aug 28, 2011)

skippy said:


> Unfortunately, it's hard to get cats without paying top dollar here. I think I just need to move! 8)



Move where skippy?.........Collectors send us material from as far away as Hawaii, Guam, Australia, B.C. and Yukon provinces........20 years ago you could dig converters out of dumpsters, no longer. 
It is common knowledge in every corner of the globe now, that cats bring big money. The only way to profit from them is being able to handle big volume and be very competitive, witch means working on small margins. I welcome anyone here to prove me wrong, at least those on here that actually make their living from catalytic converters. 
And so all of you are aware of the reality of this business, in 15 years of doing this, full time and on a large scale, I have NEVER, and i mean NEVER, seen an operation scale up from the sampling process and become a ligitimate processor, or in any way shape or form, process catalyst using a wet chemical process and do it profitably. And DOZENS have tried.
Their are some bright folks on this forum, and I enjoy the discussions, and I enjoy learning more about the gold and silver side of the PM business..........but, when a guy making converter soup out in his backyard thinks that somehow, he has come up with something that the extractive metallurgist's at Umicore, Tanaka, BASF, Impala, etc. have missed, and misses the most important point of all, and that is why would a company spend $10,000,000 on a plasma furnace, when they could get the same results from a couple hundred dollars worth of chemicals? To ignore facts and ignore reality is to plan for failure.


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## skippy (Aug 28, 2011)

Bubba

I started on this well before I had the priviledge of hearing your experiences. The biggest part of my investment is already past and done. 
I will soon have my own hard conclusions, and at this point I labour under no illusions whatsoever. I appreciate your knowledge in the buying and selling business, but some respect please,
what I have staked so far I am well prepared to lose and no doubt everyone here who has a passing interest in cats has heard what you have to say at least once.


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## Joeforbes (Aug 31, 2011)

bubba said:


> skippy said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately, it's hard to get cats without paying top dollar here. I think I just need to move! 8)
> ...




I think it depends on the amount of profit you're referring to. I've made several thousands of dollars profit over the last few months refining cats "In my back yard" so to speak. I do have a lab, but it is home made. I started with nothing more than a hot plate, some coffee pots and a few beakers and built that into quite a working environment. I would say I've done pretty well so far.

At the same time I would agree that anyone should approach this with caution and take the time to work through every factor involved. Yeah, there are huge companies with millions or even billions of dollar backing them, but that doesn't mean you can't make profit yourself...


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## skippy (Aug 31, 2011)

My congradulations to you Joe! Glad to hear you are having success.


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## Joeforbes (Sep 1, 2011)

skippy said:


> My congradulations to you Joe! Glad to hear you are having success.



Thank you Skippy. I'd like to hear about you having success as well though. 

Some things I noticed early on:

AR is too damn expensive to process the cats with. I use HCL-CL with 35% concentrated H202. The H202 doesn't need to be that concentrated (in fact, you don't really need it at all) I just find that it makes it go a hell of a lot faster. I use 5 gallon buckets that I fill half full with cats and the chemical mix, then use a peristaltic pump to keep pumping the Cl gas back into solution. I use stabilized chlorine tablets you can buy pretty much anywhere they sell pool supplies. I get mine at Walmart. I drop it with zinc, redissolve with hot HCL-CL, filter out the Rh, and precipitate Pt and Pd the way you normally would.

Small cats are a gamble, large ones are a pretty solid bet. I have yet to not make profit on a large GM converter, and I've paid up to as much as $150 for a single one. I have a pretty good supply of them for $100 flat though, which helps quite a bit.

Keep things as concentrated as possible. The time and money it saves really adds up pretty quick. 

And most importantly, you're never finished learning. I make it a point to spend several hours a day learning about not just refining, but also chemistry as well. As my knowledge of general chemistry progressed, so did my refining.

Just a few observations for you.


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## skippy (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks Joe for the encouraging words and advice. I've got 5 large gm cats and a dozen reg fords that I've decanned and crushed. I'm also getting assays done on the material, so this time I'll know what I've got for sure.


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## skippy (Sep 7, 2011)

Ok I got some assays back:

I ground up and mixed a dozen regular ford catalytic converters together
it came back as 

Pt 572 ppm
Pd 2549 ppm
Rh 278 ppm

Hopefully it was a somewhat representative sample of ford's cats. 

I also did five small breadloaf GMs, ground them up and had them assayed.

Pt 1132 ppm
Pd 2396 ppm
Rh 194 ppm 

This actually agrees moderately well with the data from that cat content document that has been discussed here off and on, which claimed they
have Pt 1180 ppm Pd 2970ppm Rh 250ppm. Five is a small sample, so they still might average closer to the numbers than my sample would indicate.


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## skippy (Sep 7, 2011)

Joe, your system sounds interesting. Do you put whole cat biscuits in the buckets, or crush them?


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## Joeforbes (Sep 8, 2011)

skippy said:


> Joe, your system sounds interesting. Do you put whole cat biscuits in the buckets, or crush them?



Whole. I've tried crushing them, didn't really effect anything besides making filtering a nightmare... lol. 35% H2O2 + HCl + Cl really makes quick work of.. well.. pretty much anything metal. 

I would recommend using 3% H2O2 that you can buy pretty much anywhere first if you are going to attempt this however. At 35%, it gets nasty.


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## skippy (Sep 8, 2011)

Joe, I figured that must be the case, it would be hard to effectively circulate the chlorine atmosphere into crushed material. 
Since I've got a lot of crushed material, 12 fords and 5 large gms, it will have to wait to another batch though.


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## Joeforbes (Sep 8, 2011)

If the bucket is sealed well, you can just swish it around. Don't do it too hard, but you can slowly mix it up just fine.


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## Bobplatinum (Dec 5, 2012)

Joeforbes said:


> skippy said:
> 
> 
> > My congradulations to you Joe! Glad to hear you are having success.
> ...





Hello Joe.

Alright If I´ve understood right you crush the honeycombs and put it into a bucket.
Then you cover the honeycombs with HCI (30%), put in chlorine tablets and some H2O2 35%
You use a peristatic pump to pumping back the gases to the solution in the bucket? How?

How do you precipitate the solution?
do you filter off the solution of the crushed honeycombs?
and then you put in chlorine and zinkpowder?

Or do you make the exraction and the recovering in the same process?
Is that possible?


How much chlorine and H2O2 do you use?
How long time does the extracting process with HCI-CI and H2O2 go?

I´m beginner in chemistry so will be thakful for some more explanation  

/Thanks


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## kurt (Dec 25, 2012)

Bobplatinum said:


> Hello Joe.
> 
> Alright If I´ve understood right you crush the honeycombs and put it into a bucket.
> Then you cover the honeycombs with HCI (30%), put in chlorine tablets and some H2O2 35%
> ...



Bob - if you go back & read page 2 of this thread you will see that Joe said he was processing his cats as "whole combs" not crushed - filtering the crushed cat combs is a filtering nightmare 

Also - Cl2 (clorine gas) is VERY toxic/dangerous so I hope if you are going to try this process I hope you are set up with a good fume hood & scruber to do it in & even if you are doing it outdoors you want to be down wind of your buckets with a good breez at your back & I would also include a fan to help ether blow the fumes away or draw them away

Also - I don't know where you live but if your are doing it outdoors & depending on ambient tempertures you need your buckets to be out in the sun with temps in the 80s to 90s & at those temps it will take a couple wks (plus or minus a few days depending on weather conditions for that time)

Also - the Cl2 evaporates out of solution quite readly even at abient temps so you need to make regular additions of Cl (bleech or tablets) over the leaching time - part of the reason it takes so long when doing it oudoors with ambient temps is because of the Cl2 evaporating off & therefore the need to replace it on a regular bases

Bob - I don't want to discourge you - but I do want you to be safe - you can get away with it in bucket outdoors on a SMALL hobbie level but even then be VARY carefull beathing the fumes (clorine gas turns into hydrocloric acid when it mixes with the water in your lungs) - you can not do this on any large scale "for profit" level with out putting yourself at risk --- unless you are set up in a proper lab with proper reaction vessels (which you can make) & proper fume control --- DO NOT try doing this indoors without being set up to do it right.

I work with Joe doing this - but we are set up in a real lab with fume hoods, scubers & reaction vessels with fume control/scubers & we have our EPA/DNR permits in place to do it as a business.

Oh ya - & don't forget you are also going to have to "properly" treat your waste before you dump it & you are going to create LARGE volumes of waste if you hope to do this on any "for profit" level

Like I said - not trying to discourage you - just don't want you to think it is as easy as put combs in 5 gal bucket, ad HCL, ad bleech, get PGMs, make money

Doing it as a hobbie one thing --- doing it as a for profit business is a whole nother ball game

Kurt


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## Jimmi (Feb 18, 2013)

kurt said:


> Bobplatinum said:
> 
> 
> > Also - Cl2 (clorine gas) is VERY toxic/dangerous so I hope if you are going to try this process I hope you are set up with a good fume hood & scruber to do it in & even if you are doing it outdoors you want to be down wind of your buckets with a good breez at your back & I would also include a fan to help ether blow the fumes away or draw them away.
> ...


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## tareq khaled khaled (May 27, 2013)

View attachment catalytic.xls
[attachment=[ATTACH type="full" alt="catalytic.xls"]0[/ATTACH]


skippy said:


> Barren, I wouldn't call them the same. The one posted earlier seems to have misappropriated the same numbers in the one I posted. They turned decimals of a percent by weight into a decimal of a troy ounce. Which is obviously quite different: 0.2% of 1000 grams of ceramic would be 2 grams of a PGM whereas 0.2 troy ounces would be over six grams. The values I infer from my interpretation seem in line with the pricing such as it is.
> 
> To Kjavan's point, I say that it is important to note that cat con makers tailor the amount of metals needed to the emissions standards of the country. Mideastern cats might be a lot lower.


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