# XRF Gun



## michael1311 (Dec 21, 2011)

Hi I am looking to purchase an XRF gun. Can anyone here tell me about their experiences such as its accuracy with the one they have. Also how much they paid for it will be handy too. Niton don't seem to like giving out prices, they seem more obsessed with sending out a sales rep to my residence, bit like dealing with a mortgage or insurance broker


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## jimdoc (Dec 21, 2011)

michael1311 said:


> Hi I am looking to purchase an XRF gun. Can anyone here tell me about their experiences such as its accuracy with the one they have. Also how much they paid for it will be handy too. Niton don't seem to like giving out prices, they seem more obsessed with sending out a sales rep to my residence, bit like dealing with a mortgage or insurance broker



Niton is about $20,000 to $36,000. I can't afford one.

Jim


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## publius (Dec 21, 2011)

And the most accurate ones with the largest element set (that can be identified by the unit) have a radioactive source in it.


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## Edcarron (Dec 21, 2011)

Hello, I have a Niton and it does have a radio active source and Jim is correct in his pricing. The unit is extremely accurate and breaks down each percentage of metals to show its composition. For me it's been great for sorting stainless and finding odd metals at my yard the unit paid for its self within a year. I think when I purchased the unit I opted for a few extra options like extra battery and walk around holster I believe it was extra for the platinum and palladium program the whole unit cost around 22 k Canadian at the time


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## michael1311 (Dec 21, 2011)

Only reason I ask, is i've used serveral XRF machines and i know they can give bogus readings or be out by 2-3% sometimes. How does the Niton go with white gold?
I've got a price on one for $18,500 but not sure if that includes the extras.


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## slickdogg (Dec 21, 2011)

Man i can't belive how expensive those are. Someone needs to pass the word along to Harbor Frieght
and tell them we need a pittsburgh, or Central pneumatic brand.. :lol: :lol:


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## michael1311 (Dec 21, 2011)

THeyre a rip off! They know they have the industry by the balls though thats why its so expensive. I've seen them in alibaba.com for $5k i messaged the guy, he said its second hand.
Not to sure if i trust alibaba.com though...


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## patnor1011 (Dec 21, 2011)

Don't. If it looks too good to be truth it isn't.
We had somebody on forum who ordered some 5k units and he is probably still waiting for them. That was like 2 years ago.


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## Lou (Dec 22, 2011)

They are great for sorting, but they'll lead you to dismal failure and financial ruin if you place too much trust in them. I can think of half a dozen examples where I've been fooled. Problem with that unit is that it tells you in 30 seconds what you have. A commercial, wavelength dispersive XRF that is meant for precious metals analysis on the buying side costs about 300K+ and it takes a minute to determine the composition. It's also about 1000X more power (4kW versus 4 W) in the x-ray beam.

Never buy precious metals with one. It tells you that it's there, and maybe even a rough accounting of how much, but a handheld energy dispersive version will never give you the precision and accuracy you need to competitively buy karat gold.


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## michael1311 (Dec 22, 2011)

Interesting you say that Lou, the entire industry here in Australia now relies on those guns. You get ppl buying gold at 8.9k 8.7k 9.1k etc etc. Has the gun given you bogus readings?
How inaccurate are we talking?


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## publius (Dec 23, 2011)

The issue is not so much the inaccuracy but one of calibration. As the source(s) in the XRF decay and the tungsten (X-Ray) target gets pitted the machine will become less reliable, hence less accurate.

One can also "recalibrate" the machine causing it to give false readings. This is done by using a sample of material with a known quantity of (say 10% Au) and telling the machine that it is really 8.8% Au (or what ever number the operator desires), while in calibration mode.


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## patnor1011 (Dec 23, 2011)

White gold is usually rhodium plated. When you use XRF to test white gold ring it will tell you you have rhodium ring. :lol: 
XRF measure composition of surface - plating. If you want get accurate reading you have to thoroughly melt and stir tested item then take reading from many points or places on resulted bar.
Sounds to me as good tool to identify metals so you know what you have there - it is good to tell you what is present but..... 
I know people who are very happy to have that as it helped them to better sort their scrap metal to identify various types, get better payout on nickel alloys and generally detect Pd or Pt in their scrap. But when they want to know how much of what is there exactly they need to do that sample brick by melting and taking multiple readings.


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## Lou (Dec 23, 2011)

There's nothing wrong about using a handheld XRF if you're buying scrap jewelery from the public (I still would prefer the stone and file) but just remember, there's a reason why the real deal costs $300K not $30K. However, on my end, if I'm buying karat scrap from a consolidator I can't afford to be even more than half a percent off if I'm doing a large lot at 99% accountability.


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## 4metals (Dec 23, 2011)

> I can't afford to be even more than half a percent off if I'm doing a large lot at 99% accountability.



In NYC the half percent is the entire gross profit, the XRF is only for buying over the counter for settling consolidation lots fire assay is king.


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## nickvc (Dec 24, 2011)

4metals said:


> In NYC the half percent is the entire gross profit, the XRF is only for buying over the counter for settling consolidation lots fire assay is king.




It has my vote too but as you all know we do have cheap quick assays here 8)


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## HigginsMechanical (Jan 19, 2012)

nickvc said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> > In NYC the half percent is the entire gross profit, the XRF is only for buying over the counter for settling consolidation lots fire assay is king.
> ...




I have an appointment with an Alpha Solutions sales rep tomorrow morning to look at the Thermo Scientific's Niton XL-2 unit. I've been quoted "$18,500.00 with wiggle room" as the "Chicago market" price and the stand is now included with the unit. I am going to test quite a few pieces with the rep, including US gold and silver coinage.

From what I've gathered so far, the unit only reads down about 10 microns beneath the surface of the item being tested. (Would not be good for say, testing silver bars made in China that could have lead filler in the middle) Niton claims 98.7% accuracy. I suppose if one was was using on the buying side for jewelry it would be good because most karat jewelry has an evenly mixed alloy. It will tell you by percentages if the item is gold filled or plated.

I'm thinking of a couple of more uses... Testing before and after inquarting and during the refining process to help determine chemical quantities. Also thinking it could be used to test purity after refining. (Assuming a very thorough stir prior to pouring bars or ingots.)

They claim the unit will last 4-5 years with every day usage before needing service at around $6,500.00 in today's dollars. I am wondering (and will find out) if one needs to be licensed to own and operate one and if the unit needs periodic testing by any government agency...

Product brochures are attached if anyone is interested...

View attachment Niton_JewelryPrecious_Metals_bro_web_FINAL.sflb.pdf


View attachment Niton_XL2_100_PreciousMetals_hirez2011July25_1.sflb.pdf


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## Smack (Jan 19, 2012)

Let us know asap how it does on the coins.


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## HigginsMechanical (Jan 19, 2012)

Smack said:


> Let us know asap how it does on the coins.




Will do.....


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## nickvc (Jan 20, 2012)

As Lou and 4metals have pointed out they have their place and for some applications are invaluable as they give a quick indication of what you have. If you expect total accuracy as to percentages of metals in an alloy I feel you might be disappointed, they are an indication and at low percentages give false readings in my experience. The one piece of advice I would give is to be aware of what exactly your buying use your eyes and experience, and a good file, when buying karat scrap, heavy plating can fool them and has, in combination with a good eye and common sense they are a useful tool and can give a sense of security to sellers when the karat is in doubt but never rely entirely on them as they will bite you in the wallet.


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 20, 2012)

How hard is to make a home-made XRF gun?. 

Does anyone have the electronic schematics?. :?:


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## HigginsMechanical (Jan 20, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> How hard is to make a home-made XRF gun?.
> 
> Does anyone have the electronic schematics?. :?:



Too funny...



nickvc said:


> As Lou and 4metals have pointed out they have their place and for some applications are invaluable as they give a quick indication of what you have. If you expect total accuracy as to percentages of metals in an alloy I feel you might be disappointed, they are an indication and at low percentages give false readings in my experience. The one piece of advice I would give is to be aware of what exactly your buying use your eyes and experience, and a good file, when buying karat scrap, heavy plating can fool them and has, in combination with a good eye and common sense they are a useful tool and can give a sense of security to sellers when the karat is in doubt but never rely entirely on them as they will bite you in the wallet.



Excellent post nickvc, thank you for sharing your experience and advice... Sounds to me like you have experience using one to buy karat scrap jewelry. 

Here's a scenario... A person came in with about 25 pieces of assorted jewelry; some newer, some vintage, rings, a couple of bracelets, a necklace, tie tacks, pins, etc. I was able to pretty quickly sort out the few pieces that weren't gold but then it took 2 hours (with the customer patiently watching) to file and acid test & meter test where it seemed okay to do so. (NOT going to file a piece of jewelry and wreck it if it is still a nice piece and we don't end up with a transaction) 

I spend time on every piece I look at- One time, I had almost 3 ounces of 14k in (2) bracelets hallmarked "14k Italy" that looked like the genuine thing but were fake. Fortunately, the lady let me file one of them as the clues were being revealed- almost undetectable magnetism with a very strong magnet and no response from the meter. The xrf would have know right away.

Anyway, back on the farm, we ended up with a deal (and he had some knowledge of what I was doing) primarily because I spent them time with him, explaining and sharing exactly what I was doing (even though I made him late for dinner) but in the end, if I had used an xrf: a) he probably would have been just as impressed, b) the results would have been the same (file, acid and meter and eyeballs are only approximates too) and c) he would have been on time for dinner and I wouldn't have needed to spend quite so much time.

So I agree with you, it is not the be all, end all, 100% sure thing. But I do see definite advantages which, is why I am looking at one later this morning...

Have a great day.


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## nickvc (Jan 20, 2012)

I never have owned one but have used the handheld Niton and also a desk mounted device I can't remember the name. They as I said have their place but aren't the answer to all the things we encounter in the wonderful world of refining. They are pretty useless with low grade material and I wouldn't ever use ones reading to sell my material, but as I have said many times I have access to quick cheap assays. They are good for karat scrap buying but you still need to be aware and use your eyes and intuition to spot some of the fake and heavy plated goods flooding onto the market.


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## HigginsMechanical (Jan 20, 2012)

Smack said:


> Let us know asap how it does on the coins.



The salesman for the Niton XL2 was a genuinely nice guy, not one of those pushy "guerrilla" type salesman, an engineer by trade and a sales rep for Thermo Scientific. He spent three hours with me in my office this morning and we really put the XL2 through its paces.

A few notes:

The State of Illinois requires the unit to be registered with the State. "IEMA" (Illinois Emergency Management Agency) charges $110.00 per year for the registration and an on site visit- mostly to see the environment where the unit is being used and make sure the user understands the unit and general xray safety. (Such as, never point on your skin and pull the trigger- sheesh) Hey, everyone needs a job, I guess.

The XL2 unit is factory calibrated and it is impossible to alter or adjust the calibration. (You cannot program it to say 14k gold is 12k gold, etc.) There is a test feature on the touch screen home page that allows you to test the calibration against a sample contained within the unit. If adjustments are necessary, it is done automatically.

X-Rays are dispersed in a (maximum) 10' x 6" cone. When the unit is in the test stand (included) there is no dispersion.

Regarding wear and loss of performance: The xray tube works or it doesn't work. The unit has a gold anode that does wear over time. If one were to scan 20-30 items per day, no rebuild is required and no loss of efficiency would be noticed within 10 years. If one were scanning 2000-3000 items per day, you could expect to rebuild the unit twice within the 10 year time span at $6,800.00 per rebuild in today's dollars. (You'd probably buy a new unit before 10 years.)

The unit tests for 14 elements: Au, Ag, Pt, Pd, Rh, Ru, Ir, Zn, Cu, Ni, Co, Fe, Se, Pb

The length of time you hold the trigger determines the quality of the readings. 2-3 seconds is normal for a piece of known quality. 5 seconds is ideal for most pm's of karat gold jewelry when testing to purchase it. We tested pieces up to 2 minutes of trigger hold. As you hold the trigger, results become more refined and gradually reach a point where the figures hardly change at all, indicating maximum read. 

We tested many more different types of pieces than what is listed below. We took 66 total readings and used less than 20% of the battery over 3 hours of on time. The battery is rated for about 5 hours of continuous on time under constant testing. It isn't the taking of readings that drains the battery as much as the cooling mechanism, screen and other electronics continuous consuming power. The battery takes about 4 hours to recharge. Spare batteries are $175.00 and no car charger is available.

The way to tell if a piece is heavily plated or gold filled is by taking multiple readings at different spots including edges, looking for more than one third to one half karat difference in the pm readings.

Besides looking at the readouts on the unit's screen, you can switch to review a graph of the different elements present. There are peaks and valleys on the graph that can give better indications than the percentage readouts. (When you learn how to properly read the graph)

Another good thing is that the software for the PC is very good. (Windows based- no software for an iPad) You can operate the unit from your PC while the unit is in the stand; holding the trigger on as long as you want. Click start to start, click stop to stop testing. It includes graphs, Excel spreadsheets and great reporting features including a "Certificate of Evaluation" if you choose to print one. (Notice it isn't a "certified assay" report)

Test Results:

1st up: 2009 US Mint .9999 one troy ounce high relief gold liberty coin

90 second trigger hold:
Au 99.97% +/- 0.15%
no other elements detected.

Pretty darn right on the money.... tested several times in different spots at different trigger hold times, same results.

2nd up: 1 troy ounce "brand name" fine silver bar .999

45 second trigger hold:
Ag 99.99% +/- .09% 
no other elements detected

5 second trigger hold:
Ag 99.99% +/- .28%
no other elements detected

I'd say even .28 of a percent variance is pretty accurate.....

Next up: Two tone Rolex watch band "18k and Stainless Steel"

10 second trigger hold:
Tested as "17.76k"
Au 74.01% +/- .42
Ag 12.58% +/- .25%
Zn .1666% +/- .093%
Cu (darn... I forgot to write this one down!)

User-caused problems could arrive measuring this watch band if the unit was picking up parts of the stainless steel adjacent to the gold... be careful how you aim!

Next up: 1930's Colt Police Issue blued .38 caliber revolver (Salesman's sample XL2 unit has all programs loaded on it to test all possible elements for various users and we switched the software to test the pistol. Normally, the XL2 doesn't come with the ability to indicate Mn or Lec's)

5 second trigger hold:
Fe 97.97% +/- .35%
Mn .755% +/- .126%
Lec .910% +/- .011%
Cu .154% +/- .070%

Next Up: 1888-O Morgan silver dollar- uncirculated condition

18 second trigger hold:
Ag 93.48% +/- .23%
Ir .069% +/- .036
Zn .055% +/- .032
Cu 6.19% +/- .09%

90 second trigger hold:
Ag 93.75% +/- .11%
Ir .059% +/- .016%
Cu 6.19% +/- .09%

See how the readings can become a little more accurate as the trigger is held longer? (reading taken at the same position on the coin each time) And yes, coin silver can be more pure than .900.

Another note: Usually, If the variance (2nd number above) isn't at least 1/3 of the percentage number of the element (1st number) then it most likely isn't in the piece being tested.... The first test result indicated trace Zn... In the sample above, the second number (variance) is better than 1/2 the percentage but the trace amount was so small it was eliminated in the second, longer trigger hold reading. 

Next up: 1884 Mexican gold 1 Peso coin

25 second trigger hold:
Tested as 21k
Au 87.65% +/- .29%
Ag .369% +/- .033%
Pt .461% +/- .242%
Zn .218% +/- .068%
Cu 11.20% +/- .17%

Next Up: Men's yellow gold bracelet- hallmarked 14k

10 second trigger hold
Au 58.3% +/- .46%
Ag 8.78% +/- .22%
Zn 8.3% +/- .22%
Cu 24.62% +/- .35%

Last up: Copper pipe fitting

10 second trigger hold:
Cu 99.93% +/- .48%

Other notes:

The salesman plainly stated that this unit isn't a total replacement for experience, eyeballs, other testing means and proper assay. Although, he did like my idea to pour very thin pieces of refined pm's and test both sides in multiple spots... It is a pretty accurate tool in my book. All in all, I think the unit is efficient and accurate and very well constructed and worth the investment. 

I tried really hard to poke holes and be skeptical, as I usually am, but couldn't find much of anything not to like.

Price out the door: $16,800.00.


edited once for human speeling errors. hehe


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## nickvc (Jan 21, 2012)

My only comments are Ir in a silver dollar and Pt in a Mexican gold coin.
I'm pretty certain they aren't there, but Im willing to be proven wrong.
The point is be cautious about the read outs they indicate values that might not be there, it happened to me on some gold plated jewellery I'd melted to try and get a homogenous sample it indicated Pt and Pd which I knew were definitely not there, it also read several other elements which I can't remember but again highly unlikely to be in the alloy.
My point is basically don't waste your time chasing values that aren't there.


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 21, 2012)

HigginsMechanical said:


> The salesman for the Niton XL2 was a genuinely nice guy,
> Price out the door: $16,800.00.


For 15% commission on sales, even I can be a nice guy.


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## Bizness4you (Jan 25, 2012)

I have been looking at getting one of these also. If you are in the business of scrap metals or deal in alot of surplus it is worth it in my opinion.


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## irv (Jan 26, 2012)

I have had the Niton mentioned for about 6 months and a friend of mine has two locations and one unit in each location, he buys from the public and I only buy from dealers. Without question if you have some experience in looking at product knowing what to be extra careful in testing this unit is very beneficial and I wish I had purchased a couple years ago. It has saved me more money on platinum and silver than gold, but , the benefits far outweight the fact there is a slight variance to real assay numbers. Since I buy from dealers it has given me more credibility with my customers as well................a very worthwhile purchase and when you factor in the tax savings to get a net cost it is an easier pill to swallow


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## HigginsMechanical (Jan 26, 2012)

irv said:


> I have had the Niton mentioned for about 6 months and a friend of mine has two locations and one unit in each location, he buys from the public and I only buy from dealers. Without question if you have some experience in looking at product knowing what to be extra careful in testing this unit is very beneficial and I wish I had purchased a couple years ago. It has saved me more money on platinum and silver than gold, but , the benefits far outweight the fact there is a slight variance to real assay numbers. Since I buy from dealers it has given me more credibility with my customers as well................a very worthwhile purchase and when you factor in the tax savings to get a net cost it is an easier pill to swallow




Irv,

Thank you for your input!

Don


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 28, 2012)

My highly intuitive and accurate sense of smell tells me that there is at least one salesman/employee/shill of Niton posting in this thread.

Not that it is bad or illegal, but it'd be best if he comes forward...like right now...and does everything above the table, and perhaps offer the members of this forum the best deal possible...

Just a suggestion, not a threat, or a warning, or anything else...


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## HigginsMechanical (Jan 28, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> My highly intuitive and accurate sense of smell tells me that there is at least one salesman/employee/shill of Niton posting in this thread.
> 
> Not that it is bad or illegal, but it'd be best if he comes forward...like right now...and does everything above the table, and perhaps offer the members of this forum the best deal possible...
> 
> Just a suggestion, not a threat, or a warning, or anything else...




My friend, I am not affiliated or connected with Niton in any way. I am a commercial heating, ventilation and air conditioning contractor by trade- as I have been for 35+ years. I am in the midst of expanding my hobby and I made an appointment with the sales rep from Niton (Thermo Scientific) to look at the gun because I am interested in purchasing one; after reading about it on this forum (including misconceptions in some posts) and also researching it on the internet. 

I spent a lot of time with the sales rep and recorded everything we did; to answer for myself much of the truths and inaccuracies of what I have read in this forum. (I am as thorough as possible, by nature, when making an investment of this magnitude) I reported and shared what I recorded to this forum for the benefit of the members who, have shared so much with me. Also, a couple of members were interested in seeing the results.

Private message me and I will give you a phone number that connects to my business, as well as my company web site address and you will see for yourself. I believe you may not be quite as intuitive as your ego seems to suggest and your sense of smell is significantly off in this matter.


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## jimdoc (Jan 28, 2012)

I for one, thought it was a good report that you gave to help out the forum members that are curious about XRF devices. Like you said it is a very large investment, as cool as they are. I wish I could afford one.

Jim


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## glondor (Jan 29, 2012)

I can't smell a thing, but then I have a bit of a cold. It is nice info and sounds like a great tool, till you get to the price! You could buy a lot of gold for 20 grand. What volume of buying would you need to do to justify the price ? I can see the value in it, just not at my level of buying. Maybe some day! Thanks for sharing your experience with the agent. Did you buy one? 8)


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 29, 2012)

When the retail price of it drops below $1,000, your ego may PM my super-ego and I"ll tell you my bid for your extraordinary piece of equipment. 

In the meantime, hang around and maybe I"ll post how to build and calibrate one.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 29, 2012)

It is extraordinary piece of equipment and worth every cent. We have to accept that some things cost money and that some people can afford it and some cant.


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## HigginsMechanical (Jan 29, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> When the retail price of it drops below $1,000, your ego may PM my super-ego and I"ll tell you my bid for your extraordinary piece of equipment.
> 
> In the meantime, hang around and maybe I"ll post how to build and calibrate one.




Nah, but best of luck in all your endeavors and have a great day...


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## Lobby (Feb 10, 2012)

Good post, Higgins.

You think like a technical guy. That's a compliment, as that's how I think.

Interesting that the Morgan read 93%. They're supposed to be 90% Ag.


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## HigginsMechanical (Feb 18, 2012)

Lobby said:


> Good post, Higgins.
> 
> Interesting that the Morgan read 93%. They're supposed to be 90% Ag.



Thanks for the kind words...  

I can't remember where I read or heard it, but I'm almost certain I learned that the actual amount of Ag in silver coins could be plus or minus a couple of percent off of the 90% rating back then.... I should do some homework on this... Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.


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## auprecious (Mar 9, 2012)

Have had the xl-2 niton xrf for a few months now and am extremely happy with it. I've tested gold bars up to a kilo and have always been within .5 % on gold content once i hear back from the refiner. of course, the larger the bar the more tests i will take for the average. generally 2-4 per side. maple leafs and krugerannds come up 99.99 every time. It can be "tricked" with the gold filled and plated. but as long as you are somewhat knowledgeable about what you are testing, you will understand the readings. I've tested gold filled material where it read as 6% AU on one side and 2% AU on the other. With hallmarked jewelry however, you would be foolish to trust the stamp. Most of the time 14k comes in around 13.3-13.8 karat. but occasionally they come in at 14.5 k. If you are purchasing scrap jewelry frequently (10+ ozt a week) I would highly recommend it. it has allowed us to purchase with much more confidence and actually pay a higher price to our customers based on our accuracy.


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## Dan Dement (Mar 11, 2012)

Guys,

I don't have the gun but on my third XRF desktop. I also have a two SG scales. I buy over well over a million a year which is not big money for most Gb's but not my main business but a profitable sideline. I cash out at about 300 grams and melt almost every buy and SG it and XRF. I also have a small induction melter and a band saw. One of the most important things I have learned is no matter how well you mix it, it's NOT the same all the way through. You name it, I do it except fire assay but my XRF is very close to the $100,000 machine my refiner has. Close, I mean xx.08 % in money is $50 or less on $12,000 and he actually paid me more than I had figured. I think a check is not a fire assay but is not bad either.

Get yourself standards to check your XRF machine and your refiners. Understand, you can fool an XRF and you can fool an SG scale but it is hard to fool both! But if you melt it, it's very hard to fool both. Almost impossible in gold. The heavy plated mysttery metal bracelet will fool the XRF but not the SG scale. I have done hundreds of buys and balance out all batches in short time periods. I developed my own formula & method to receive what I consider a fair & accurate payout. 

Supers. .kruggerands are not 99.99 pure gold but 91.67%. Not picking on you just trying to be accurate.

Dan


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## Harold_V (Mar 12, 2012)

Dan Dement said:


> Supers. .kruggerands are not 99.99 pure gold but 91.67%. Not picking on you just trying to be accurate.


That's correct. They are not pure gold. 

Harold


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## Photobacterium (Mar 12, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> How hard is to make a home-made XRF gun?.
> 
> Does anyone have the electronic schematics?. :?:



Start out with a search for "X-Ray Tomography".

The basic idea for making X-Rays - fire an electron beam (1 MeV) at a tungsten target.

Stand back ... and wear a lead-lined cup to protect the protoplasm.

Then you just have to figure out how different metal samples produce different signatures.

Many years of engineering later ...


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## butcher (Mar 13, 2012)

Many years of engineering later ...


Photobacterium, 
I like how you take a tough question and make it sound so simple.


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## auprecious (Mar 15, 2012)

.kruggerands are not 99.99 pure gold but 91.67%. Not picking on you just trying to be accurate.

duly noted


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