# 'We're 'gonna need a bigger beaker,...'



## kuma (Jul 18, 2015)

'Asteroid worth £3 TRILLION in precious metals set to pass Earth on Sunday...'

"An asteroid worth a potential £3.5 trillion ($5.4 trillion) is due to pass by Earth on Sunday, and you can watch it live from 11pm UK time (6.30pm ET).

Asteroid 2011 UW-158's fly-by will be streamed live on the internet from an observatory in the Canary Islands.

The space rock has attracted the attention of asteroid mining company Planetary Resources, because it is thought to have a 100 million ton core of platinum that the company might one day want to exploit.

Asteroid 2011 UW-158 will pass within 1.5 million miles (2.4 million km) from Earth on Sunday - 30 times closer than our nearest planet.
It is less than half a mile (1km) across, but is thought to be immensely valuable because of its platinum core."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3165222/Asteroid-worth-3-TRILLION-precious-metals-set-pass-Earth-Sunday-watch-live.html?ito=social-facebook

Do we have any rocket scientists on the forum? It sure sounds like a fun project, I'll bring the stannous! :shock: :lol: 

Chris


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 18, 2015)

Kuma Hi.

I read that article with great interest too! The Daily Mail over here is a bit of a sensationalist paper to be honest. However it would be a great project. Thinking logically about it though, that much material would drop the price of the end product dramatically!


----------



## kuma (Jul 18, 2015)

spaceships said:


> Thinking logically about it though, that much material would drop the price of the end product dramatically!



I'd considered that too, but if we could somehow pull it off on the sly,... :twisted: lol


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 18, 2015)

You think we could "ninja" the asteroid without anyone knowing? 8) 8)


----------



## kuma (Jul 18, 2015)

Having seen some of the things that people on this forum are capable of pulling off, I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility, 8) 8)


----------



## jason_recliner (Jul 18, 2015)

spaceships said:


> You think we could "ninja" the asteroid without anyone knowing? 8) 8)


Not likely enough for me to sell all my shares in "Platinums Я Us".


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 18, 2015)

jason_recliner said:


> spaceships said:
> 
> 
> > You think we could "ninja" the asteroid without anyone knowing? 8) 8)
> ...



We could crowd fund it 8)


----------



## g_axelsson (Jul 18, 2015)

Sorry guys, not a rocket scientist (although I have the cup), but consider me a bit of an meteorite expert.

With all the screen time this asteroid have gotten I think it's hard to mine it without being spotted, I suggest a more sneaky approach and go for the next one six days later, 1999 JD6. It's a bit further out (3 times) but 100 times as massive and should contain 100 times the platinum of tomorrows asteroid. 2011 UW158 is a mere 320 m wide, while 1999 JD6 is 1.8 km wide.
http://echo.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroids/2011UW158/2011UW158_planning.html



Top row... gold button (to keep it on topic) and my coffee cup.
Bottom row... two pieces of the Chelyabinsk meteorite that fell two years ago, NWA 4134 Lunar mare basalt, NWA 4925 Martian shergottite.

Do I have the qualifications to join the venture? :mrgreen: 

Göran


----------



## justinhcase (Jul 18, 2015)

Harnessing the resources of the solar system would make the conventional system of trade useless.
Every thing form metal to energy is so abundant that if we had learned to be good will to each other.
Worked hard to train our self's not to give into the inherent hostility caused by the millennia fighting over a very finite set of resources.
Every one could have just about any thing they wanted,no one would be left hungry or forced to work as a lesser component of society.
We can not imagine what a planet so freed would develop into.
But for now we just have to do the best with what we have been given close to hand.
Space and low orbit do have some possibility's with out playing around with thing's that could set of a mass extinction event.
I like the pack man satellite,with the addition of a heat shield payload's could be returned to earth for processing.Having seen what they put into satellite's I would think they might be rich pickings and good practice if you intend to try and work in space.
It would be better for us than letting them burn up on entry. 
http://www.vocativ.com/video/tech/space/swiss-pac-man-satellite-designed-to-gobble-up-space-debris/
and with the google lunar prize it is only a matter of time before a clever set of geek's and inventor's join nation's in the endeavor,one of our younger member's may be part the first private company to do so.
http://lunar.xprize.org/


----------



## Lou (Jul 18, 2015)

A solid platinum core like that would punch one hell of a hole into the Earth's crust--like a 70Kkmh hot knife through butter!

Talk about cross sectional density.


----------



## jason_recliner (Jul 18, 2015)

Even more so at 70km/second.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 18, 2015)

jason_recliner said:


> Even more so at 70km/second.



So in addition to a bigger beaker- we're going to need Bruce Willis then. 8)


----------



## 4metals (Jul 18, 2015)

Not to mention that once the Pt is back on terra firma there will be so much Platinum the price will plummet and Platinum will be the new Silver.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 18, 2015)

Yeah I already alluded to that one further up the thread mate. It would crash like a bomb once the extraction company have made their margins back.


----------



## etack (Jul 18, 2015)

4metals said:


> Not to mention that once the Pt is back on terra firma there will be so much Platinum the price will plummet and Platinum will be the new Silver.



God knows PGM prices are low enough now!!!!!!!!

Eruc


----------



## g_axelsson (Jul 18, 2015)

90.000.000 tons of platinum they say....

Let's do some math!

We know it's probably an M-class asteroid, ie made of iron and circa 320 m wide.
Evidence so far shows it to be quite elongated and with a a lot of rotational speed. It would be a real nightmare to try to land on it without being smashed by it. Like trying to land a toy helicopter on a ceiling fan...

Let's approximate it with a 300m cube (any Borg references may be assimilated by the mods, acid resistance is futile!) That would be about 300*300*300 cubic meter = 27.000.000 m3 with a density of close to 8 kg/m3. That gives a weight of 8*27000000=216.000.000 tons.

A typical iron meteorite (Morasco in this case) contains about 14 ppm platinum, that's 14g/ton iron. That would give about 216000000*14=3 million kilos of Pt.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/229399197_Trace_element_partitioning_in_the_Morasko_meteorite_from_Poznan_Poland

With today's worth of platinum at $990/ounce = $31.8/g it would be worth $96.000.000.000 and slightly less in British pound. At least I would call that 96 billions (109) and not 3 trillions (1012).
I don't think my calculations are off by a factor 1000, a factor 10 would have been precise on the other hand so I think I would like to add a [Citation needed] to the Newspaper calculations...
Maybe they should read http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-61424,00.html

Can I have the iron scrap? It would give me 216000000000*0.8 SEK = 170*109 SEK = $20*109 if I turn it in at the scrap yard. :mrgreen: 

I just looked at the article again... the animation lists the value at $95 B, as it's an American that did it I assume he means $95*109. Quite close to my calculations. I wonder how that mining company came up with a number of 5 trillion dollars... Snake oil anyone?

Göran


----------



## g_axelsson (Jul 18, 2015)

Using my numbers from above, the worldwide platinum production was (2014) 161 tons so it would take the world 
3000/161 = 18.6 years to mine as much platinum as there are in that rock. Unless we can mine it in less than 50 years it won't affect the platinum price that much.

It's hard to do a calculation on launch costs, but if we consider that mining equipment generally is heavy we could use the Delta IV heavy rocket at a cost of $350 million per launch. The money from selling platinum would be enough to fund 95*109/350*106 = 270 launches... but then we haven't added the cost of the equipment needed, for example a 500m beaker and chemicals. Don't forget the fees for waste processing... :mrgreen: 

Göran


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 18, 2015)

Nice maths Goran. I think 4Metals has it right- it would end up like silver :shock:


----------



## g_axelsson (Jul 18, 2015)

Total silver production (2014) was 877.5 Moz or 27300 ton, 9 times the amount of platinum in that rock. If we dumped all the platinum on the market in a month we could probably drop the price to somewhere close to silver, but then I think all investors would have a field day because next month the price would rise again.

Göran


----------



## Shark (Jul 18, 2015)

> ...but then we haven't added the cost of the equipment needed, for example a 500m beaker and chemicals. Don't forget the fees for waste processing... :mrgreen:
> 
> Göran



WOW! 

How many coffee pots would that be? Oh yea, a heck of a lot, :mrgreen:


----------



## justinhcase (Jul 18, 2015)

If it where viable to mine asteroid's it would not be a one off thing.
Sir Arthur C Clark with a number of other's such as Patrick Moore formed the British Interplanetary Society in the 1940's .
For a grand cost of Fifteen pound's and twenty five pence they predicted satellite communication and extrapolated how we would eventually mine asteroid's and use the moon for a manufacturing base.
There math's was spot on even by today's standard's 
That work has been taken on and improved by the Venus Project.
It will happen just as they predicted the only question is how long it take's us to develop.
It will mean a lot of work and sacrifice if we are to do it mostly born by the poorest of society.
It will give god like resources to those in control. we have to hope who ever that is will share it equally for the benefit of the hole planet and not turn into a despot.
what will people do when there is no Money or Need for it. what would you do if you where left to your own proclivity's and never needed for any thing.
I would still work on my music and fiddle with project's that interested me, money for me is just a way to buy equipment in any case.
But how would that work grow with out the need to do sixty hour week's guarding other people's property, time's that by every scientific researcher taken off nail varnish development and let loos to go where there gut took them.


----------



## 4metals (Jul 18, 2015)

What is the current theory as to how all of this space debris came to have such high percentages of their total mass as platinum?


----------



## justinhcase (Jul 18, 2015)

The world' was originally covered in gold and platinum ore that came from outer space after a mammoth meteorite shower battered the Earth more than four billion years ago,
These huge gold deposits appeared during the Earth's formation when molten iron sank to its centre, dragging with it vast quantities of precious metals. 
This left the Earth lacking gold and platinum until a second cataclysmic meteor shower bombarded the earth 200 million years later. 
I would think as the material still in orbit had not been dipped in a planet sized cauldron of molten iron and aloud to sink beyond reach it should be quite rich.
Preciouses metals are only rare on the crust of the earth in space there is literally an infinite amount of every element.
stars about 10 times the size of our sun are responsible for all our nice shiny metal, they ex­plode as so-called su­per­novas, pro­duc­ing el­e­ments some­times heav­i­er than iron that are re­leased by the blast. De­pend­ing on how heavy the star orig­i­nally was, sil­ver gold and P.G.M.'s are made.
How much Au do you get from star that is ten time's bigger than the sun ?


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 18, 2015)

Just sell it on fleabay.


----------



## justinhcase (Jul 18, 2015)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Just sell it on fleabay.


You could put it up as "buyer Collect's" you might get a hopeful punter. :lol:


----------



## g_axelsson (Jul 19, 2015)

4metals said:


> What is the current theory as to how all of this space debris came to have such high percentages of their total mass as platinum?


Platinum, together with silver, copper, gold and every other element above iron is created by super novas. In the explosion the matter is thrown out into interstellar space and mixed with the gas clouds already there. When a new star system is created by gravitational collapse of the dust and gas cloud things start to clump together and eventually form planets too.

Up until this point the matter has been fairly mixed, not perfect as we still see differences in oxygen isotope compositions in different places of our solar system. That is one way to separate meteorites from earth rocks.

But when all matter collects in a big rocky ball as our planet the energy released from falling down onto the surface combined with some short lived radioactive isotopes (Aluminum 26 I think it was) the heat was enough to melt the planet. The heavier iron and nickel sank to the core, dragging most of the iron soluble elements with it. The scientists calls them siderofiles, from iron loving. We would just say that the iron was a collector.

So basically the iron core of our planet does have just as much platinum as this space rock. The question wasn't how did the space rock get so rich in platinum, but how did the Earth get depleted of platinum and other metals.

The special thing about this asteroid is that it is made up of mostly solid iron. Most asteroids are rocky in composition. Just as the Earth have an iron core, some of the larger asteroids got big enough to melt and form an iron core. Later collisions have cracked the asteroid and exposed the iron core, so every iron meteorite is a part of a small planets core.
The science we can do on iron meteorites are telling us a lot about our own planets core.

Göran


----------



## kuma (Jul 19, 2015)

spaceships said:


> jason_recliner said:
> 
> 
> > Even more so at 70km/second.
> ...



:lol:


----------



## 4metals (Jul 19, 2015)

> So basically the iron core of our planet does have just as much platinum as this space rock.



I think it would be less costly to mine earths core than an asteroid flying through space. After all Jules Verne was already down there once wasn't he?


----------



## Geo (Jul 19, 2015)

Does anyone remember a TV show called "Salvage 1"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvage_1 Andy Griffith owned a salvage company and built a rocket from a semi fuel tanker and used a cement mixer as a space capsule. They would launch from the scrap yard and salvage space junk. The pilot aired in 1979 and in my opinion, was years before it's time. It was cheap and cheesy but the concept is very intriguing. Private companies are now in the space race and with billions of dollars worth of space junk floating around up there, it's just a matter of time before someone does it for real.


----------



## kuma (Jul 19, 2015)

Just popping through real quick, here's the live footage (without having to hand over your credit card details for a trial) and tracking of the asteroid as it whizzes past, I thought others might be interested too.

Live footage from Slooh - http://www.iflscience.com/space/watch-live-platinum-asteroid-worth-trillions-dollars-flies-past-earth

Chris


----------



## macfixer01 (Jul 19, 2015)

g_axelsson said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> > What is the current theory as to how all of this space debris came to have such high percentages of their total mass as platinum?
> ...




Yes this seems to be the current theory, that the early Earth was molten so the heavy metals originally part of the planet sunk to the core. All the PM's now found in the crust were due to later meteorites falling after the crust had solidified (plus then redistributed through subduction and volcanism and plate tectonics, and concentrated in veins through dissolution of minerals by superheated ground water, and so on).

I saw a great tv show sometime in the last few nights but unfortunately was really tired so can't recall a few things. I believe it was called something like "Hunt For The First Star" unless that was maybe just the episode name and not the show name? In any case I'm not having any luck finding info about it now. To make it relatable to the average person they examined the main metals needed to produce a car, and talked about how each metal was created in the early universe. However they said that metals as heavy as gold and platinum can't even be produced in a supernova? Astronomers think they've actually observed huge amounts of gold being formed by the collision of two neutron stars though. I did find a few links to stories about that.

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2013-19


----------



## justinhcase (Jul 19, 2015)

macfixer01 said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > 4metals said:
> ...


The problem with cosmology is every one has a theory and we only have naturally occurring experiment's and observation to go on.most of which happened million of years before the light even reaches us.
The neutron star explanation probably result's in the production of high mass element's,but it is such a rare occurrence would it not make thous element's much rarer than they are?
I read articles by George F. Smoot and John Mather who share the 2006 Nobel prize "for their discovery of the blackbody form and anisotropy of the cosmic microwave background"
They believe high mass element's are produced in the death throws of high mass star's.
http://aether.lbl.gov/www/tour/elements/stellar/stellar_a.html
I wish I understood the physic's enough to venture an opinion. 
Fascinating subject.


----------



## pinman (Jul 19, 2015)

This event is great PR for those start up asteroid mining companies.


----------



## g_axelsson (Jul 20, 2015)

There's lots of wrong information out among the articles on the net. The rock seems to be one single mass of 300x600 m and spinning with one revolution per 37 minutes. After doing some searches I found this one with a fuzzy picture.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/national-astronomy-and-ionosphere-center-arecibo-observatory/arecibo-observatory-provides-the-first-detailed-images-of-a-rare-asteroid/1030260453650889
It looks like the Arecibo observatory have hard times, their homepage haven't been updated since 2013.

Well, we missed this opportunity, but it will be back in 2108, better place the order for the beaker well in time.

Göran


----------



## kuma (Jul 20, 2015)

macfixer01 said:


> I saw a great tv show sometime in the last few nights but unfortunately was really tired so can't recall a few things. I believe it was called something like "Hunt For The First Star" unless that was maybe just the episode name and not the show name? In any case I'm not having any luck finding info about it now. To make it relatable to the average person they examined the main metals needed to produce a car, and talked about how each metal was created in the early universe. However they said that metals as heavy as gold and platinum can't even be produced in a supernova? Astronomers think they've actually observed huge amounts of gold being formed by the collision of two neutron stars though.



Ironically enough, I recently watched a programme presented by astrophysicist Brian Cox where he explains that the heavier metals such as gold and platinum _are_ produced within supernovas. There's so many conflicting ideas and theories it's sometimes hard to keep up! :shock: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC7p_Bey5lU



g_axelsson said:


> Well, we missed this opportunity, but it will be back in 2108, better place the order for the beaker well in time.



:lol: 

Chris


----------



## justinhcase (Jul 20, 2015)

There are countless similar object's passing by every year.
This has just been used to promote a company that is actively seeking investor's.
The one thing I have not seen mentioned is that there are several world treatise's in place governing human's use and ownership of celestial object's.
Basically 99% of nations have agreed they can not claim ownership of any object they have not place in space them self's and that they would not place weapons out side the earth's atmosphere. 
This technology enables you to collect and lay claim to resources and would make nuclear weapon's look like fire work's,only with out the radiation.
Will it be like Luxemburg where a company can register it's self outside the jurisdiction of authority's that out law a practices.
Or will some bright spark set up a completely independent Principality like Sealand only in orbit.
http://www.sealandgov.org/


----------



## kuma (Jul 21, 2015)

justinhcase said:


> There are countless similar object's passing by every year.
> This has just been used to promote a company that is actively seeking investor's.



Good call, 8)


----------

