# refining silver solder



## refiner1001 (May 28, 2010)

how can i seperate the silver from the copper in 15% silver solder?


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## nickvc (May 28, 2010)

The only way i can think of is to put the solder in a bucket cover with water and then slowly add nitric acid,this will produce fumes but if you add the acid slowly this can be minimised but do it outside or under a fume hood,when all the metals have dissolved, heat will help use of less acid,you can cement the silver out onto fresh copper sheet or add salt and then you get silver chloride.


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## lazersteve (May 28, 2010)

refiner1001 said:


> how can i seperate the silver from the copper in 15% silver solder?



Use the solder to cement the silver out of another batch of sterling silver dissolved with nitirc. The 85% copper will go into solution and precipitate your silver, the 15% silver will settle to the bottom with the cemented silver.

Alternately use the solder to inquart some karat gold.

Steve


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## philddreamer (May 28, 2010)

Thank you Steve!
That's the voice of expirience. It went straight to my "Silver" file.  

Steve, a question comes to mind! :roll: Will this also work when de-plating silver plated articules, silverware? 

philddreamer.


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## refiner1001 (May 28, 2010)

can i add electricity and put solder in copper sulphate to plate the copper onto a copper cathode and then melt the mud back into solid silver?


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 28, 2010)

refiner1001 said:


> how can i seperate the silver from the copper in 15% silver solder?



How much of this do you have? I hate to see a good product wasted. 8)


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## refiner1001 (May 28, 2010)

8 oz. or so unusable pcs. and droppings but i have access to an almost unlimited supply of scrap ac units that might or might not have silver in the solder im thinking that i could cut off the solder and melt into anode and plate copper onto cathode just not sure if it possible.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 28, 2010)

refiner1001 said:


> 8 oz. or so unusable pcs. and droppings but i have access to an almost unlimited supply of scrap ac units that might or might not have silver in the solder im thinking that i could cut off the solder and melt into anode and plate copper onto cathode just not sure if it possible.



That is interesting. Not sure if that would be the correct way to go about recovering it. ther will be a lot more copper than silver in your yield. You might consider a cycle of refining your silver and dropping it with copper bars and the silver in the bars would be added to the dropped silver. 

I save all the fittings with silver solder from jobs I do and AC units I tear apart from replacement.


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## goldsilverpro (May 28, 2010)

As I understand it, there are several types of silver solder. I think the stuff with 3 - 5% silver is mainly tin. The stuff in the 15% silver range seems to be mainly copper with a little zinc. If 100% of what you have is the high copper variety, you could probably set up an electrolytic system to plate out the copper and recover the silver in the anode sludge. However, if you contaminate this with just a small amount of the tin variety, it could wreck the whole system.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 29, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> As I understand it, there are several types of silver solder. I think the stuff with 3 - 5% silver is mainly tin. The stuff in the 15% silver range seems to be mainly copper with a little zinc. If 100% of what you have is the high copper variety, you could probably set up an electrolytic system to plate out the copper and recover the silver in the anode sludge. However, if you contaminate this with just a small amount of the tin variety, it could wreck the whole system.



GSP, you would know the compund make up of this better than I would because of your experience, but from a technical standpoint I wouldn't buy the cheap silver solder for my instilations of equipment. I would be interested in seeing an MSDS sheet on a silver solder with tin and who the mfg is so I can stay clear of them.


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## Anonymous (May 29, 2010)

silver solder with this is just that solder.

silver filler with copper is braze and what the vast majority of tech use.

Also anywere where brass meets copper is High silver braze 45 -56 percent silver, this is mostly at the distribution head for multi circuit condensers.

Jim


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 29, 2010)

james122964 said:


> silver solder with this is just that solder.
> 
> silver filler with copper is braze and what the vast majority of tech use.
> 
> ...



Yep that is correct. I will not use any with tin in it if there is any made. I have my standards and 15% is the only thing I will use. 8)


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## qst42know (May 29, 2010)

To use the term brazing it should refer to an alloy that melts at or above 840F. Silver is used in both solders and braze alloys and the terms are often confused. 

Wolverine is not a company you want to avoid as they bought the division from Engelhard joining technologies. Harris likely has a similar alloy chart. 

It's all application dependant.

Check out the Silvaloy A5, they also have a solder version Silvabrite S. Both are 5% silver. 

http://www.silvaloy.com/brazing_table.php


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## Platdigger (May 29, 2010)

I worked at a shop one time were I was replacing compressors in heat pumps.

The solder I was using I was told to be like 90 percent silver. In fact if I remember correctly, it was called 90/10.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 29, 2010)

Platdigger said:


> I worked at a shop one time were I was replacing compressors in heat pumps.
> 
> The solder I was using I was told to be like 90 percent silver. In fact if I remember correctly, it was called 90/10.



Man that is high. What was it like to work with in respect to 15%?

You sure that person didn't have his percentage backwards?


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## Platdigger (May 29, 2010)

No, one of the bosses would come out in the morn and hand me some of these sticks. I remeber specifically him telling me how much this solder cost, before he would let go of his end of the small hand full...(grin)
Silver was at about 50 per at the time. That should give you the date.

oh, it was real nice to work with. Just needed more heat. A higher temp.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 29, 2010)

ROFL. Hand you the sticks..Sounds like something I would do. Sounds like a good boss.. :twisted: 

You must have really had fun trying to use this with out oxidising the copper tubing.

I looked on Kitco for past silver prices but it only shows silver being around 22-24. If it reached $50.00 that was possibly when the Hunt brothers I think it was possibly tried to corner the market. Wasn't that in the early 80's?


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## goldsilverpro (May 29, 2010)

The point I tried to make (albeit, poorly) only concerned the possibility of using an electrolytic cell to recover the silver. In looking at the composition charts of the myriad of various silver solders and brazes, about the only ones I saw that would possibly work in an electrolytic system were the ones containing only silver, copper, and phosphorous. Most of these that I saw contained 15% silver. With those, you could probably plate out the copper using a weak sulfuric/copper sulfate cell and separate the silver. Even with this, though, I'm not sure what the phosphorous would do.

Other silver solders/brazes contain such things as tin, cadmium, lead, indium, and zinc. Using a cell for these would be much more difficult. It might be possible to run the low silver (2-5%)/high tin alloys through a cell containing potassium (or, sodium) stannate and potassium (or, sodium) hydroxide. The tin would dissolve and plate out and the silver would be recovered at the anode.

If you did successfully use a cell for the Ag, Cu, P alloys, it would foul the system if any of these other alloys were inadvertently added to the mix. That's the point I was trying to make.


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## Platdigger (May 29, 2010)

"Wasn't that in the early 80's?"

yes


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 29, 2010)

I wonder what his reason was for using such a high grade solder.

And heat pumps..

Back when they first came into use they werre insatlled by the millitary in housing. My dad use to tell me that one of the first projects that they were installed in was in Cloumbus, Mississippi if I remember right. He worked on that project and when they started up the systems for the first time they started having problems with them. I think they were Carrier unit's. Any way the Mfg. sent a team down and started diagnossing problem's installing sight glasses on compressors and a lot of other stuff. Any way my dad use to tell me by the time they finished with the project there were about 125 desighn changes to the Heat Pump systems. I learned a lot from his knowledge. No useful information in this paragraph, just me spouting off in respect to my dad that I miss.


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## philddreamer (May 29, 2010)

I found some info on the Hunts Brother. It satisfied my couriosity. 

http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2000/hunt_bros.html

philddreamer


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 29, 2010)

philddreamer said:


> I found some info on the Hunts Brother. It satisfied my couriosity.
> 
> http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2000/hunt_bros.html
> 
> philddreamer



Greed...Sloughtered those pigs.


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## philddreamer (May 29, 2010)

You betcha!

They asked for it , and they got it! I had a co-worker than jumped on that wagon & lost a bundle. His life was miserable for a good while.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 29, 2010)

philddreamer said:


> You betcha!
> 
> They asked for it , and they got it! I had a co-worker than jumped on that wagon & lost a bundle. His life was miserable for a good while.



Yep it can be a miserable life if you bet with what you don't have or with what you borrow to try and make a killing on one certain thing in a short period of time. Especially if you can't generate the cash flow to make up for the loss.

Don't bet with what you can't afford to loose.


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## Oz (May 29, 2010)

I have a slightly different take on it, they were indeed gambling but were pushed to it by a rigged system of the US governments design. 
Some of you are old enough to remember the very high inflation of the 70's caused by the excessive spending fallout from the Vietnam war funded by the US with money printed out of thin air. The Hunts were watching their paper money evaporate in value before their eyes and the US government had been kind enough to rig the game so that they could not protect themselves as people had done in the past from excessive government spending by owning gold, it had been outlawed. They turned to silver.
Now they were indeed taking risks by investing so much in silver but what drove them to default was the US Government changing the rules of the market with the express intent to bankrupt the Hunts and teach others what would happen if they tried it. 
In short, I have a bit of empathy for their situation. As long as Governments and their Central Banks suppress and manipulate precious metals pricing as is done now, or outlaw the ownership of hard assets they have done in the past it will deprive the people of the means to protect what they have worked for and saved. Government is then free to take peoples earnings by currency depreciation without limitations.


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## goldsilverpro (May 29, 2010)

If you look into it, the Hunt Brothers found a loop-hole and were doing everything legally - nothing wrong with that. The BS government changed the rules on them in mid-stream and broke them. Read the excellent book about the whole Hunt Bros affair, "Beyond Greed", by Stephen Fay.


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## Harold_V (May 30, 2010)

Oz said:


> The Hunts were watching their paper money evaporate in value before their eyes and the US government had been kind enough to rig the game so that they could not protect themselves as people had done in the past from excessive government spending by owning gold, it had been outlawed. They turned to silver.


January of 1975, restrictions on the ownership of gold were lifted. The gold reserve act had no (direct) part in their failure. 

Harold


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## Oz (May 30, 2010)

I would agree that “the gold reserve act had no (direct) part in their failure” as gold did become legal to own once again on Jan 1st 1975 and they went bust after that. What made them go bust was the changing of the market rules that disallowed the ownership of the quantities of futures contracts they already owned which forced a massive liquidation of silver crashing the price as the market was flooded with silver. On January 21st 1980 Comex hastened this further by suspending trading in silver and only accepting liquidation orders. Talk about rigging a price by regulation, no buyers allowed, only sellers.

The gold restrictions did have a major effect as to their decision to go into silver however as the Hunt family had started to go into silver as in a big way starting in 1970 as inflation first started to really roll. They had acquired enough silver prior to the re-legalization of gold in 1975 that they were concerned with government confiscation of their silver. They loaded 40 million ounces of their silver onto 3 specially chartered 707 jets and flew it to Switzerland for safe keeping. They still had 15 million ounces in the US at this time not counting futures contracts.

All in all it is a fascinating story that all that deal in precious metals should be aware of as the manipulations by government that occurred are far more recent than Roosevelt's 1933 gold confiscation and very relevant to what is possible in the future as to the regulation or legality of ownership of gold and silver in a time people are loosing faith in government "money" operations.


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## Harold_V (May 30, 2010)

Oz said:


> I would agree that “the gold reserve act had no (direct) part in their failure” as gold did become legal to own once again on Jan 1st 1975 and they went bust after that. What made them go bust was the changing of the market rules that disallowed the ownership of the quantities of futures contracts they already owned which forced a massive liquidation of silver crashing the price as the market was flooded with silver.


I'm not well informed on stocks and regulations, but it seems to me that the government made it illegal, long ago, to have major stock ownership and deal with the stock in such a way that you can influence the market price. E.L. Cord, of the Cord automobile, was so charged by the government, which is part of the reason for the Cord automobile failure. Hunts were controlling the market. 

When I first got interested in precious metals, silver was $1.74/ounce. That was some time in '72. From your post, it's clear that the Hunts were already deeply invested in silver. Imagine the smile on their faces when it hit $50 in '80, just prior to the market collapse. 

Harold


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## Oz (May 31, 2010)

I am not particularly fluent in market regulation either. I have always been a hard money guy and as such have never bought a stock, bond, option, or futures contract. I do watch the markets and have a fair idea of cause and effect however. These markets have deep impacts on our daily lives at times even if we do not choose to actively participate. 

To the best of my knowledge the Hunts stayed within the limits set on both the CBOT and Comex as they bought. What disrupted the markets is that they would actually stand for delivery of the metal instead of settling for cash. The exchanges were running out of metal to deliver despite there still being an over abundance of outstanding contracts. 

I am far from being a lawyer but manipulation is a slippery term in my opinion as to commodities, it seems to be selectively applied. Eric Sprott recently announced he is buying 6 metric tons of gold bullion on the open markets, this will move the markets but will not be called manipulation. Bullion banks sell huge quantities of metal shorts they cannot cover with metal and so far they are not being accused by government regulators of market manipulation despite it significantly moving the market price. The Hunts purchased futures contracts and often took delivery (most do not, it is a paper game), when them taking delivery became inconvenient they were labeled manipulators and the rules that allowed for what they were doing were changed to stop them but not allowing for an orderly reduction of contracts.


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## refiner1001 (Jun 8, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> refiner1001 said:
> 
> 
> > how can i seperate the silver from the copper in 15% silver solder?
> ...


once i cement the silver can i dissolve the cemented silver and repeat process until all silver/copper material is gone


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## Harold_V (Jun 9, 2010)

refiner1001 said:


> once i cement the silver can i dissolve the cemented silver and repeat process until all silver/copper material is gone


A repeat dissolution of the resulting silver wouldn't serve much of a purpose. When you use the solder as Steve suggested, because there's a predominance of copper, which is also heavier than silver by a good margin, there's so little silver present that it is finely divided. As a result, the copper that is used is fully dissolved, liberating the contained silver. In theory, the only copper that would follow the operation (in cementing the silver) would be that which was mechanically bound, or dragged down. It can be eliminated to less than 1% by careful washing, but to rerun the material you'd be back where you started, recovering the dissolved silver with copper. Same problem, with nothing of substance gained. 

What you do to achieve greater purity is either dissolve the silver, concentrate, and allow silver to grow as silver nitrate, then re-dissolve them and repeat, until they are free of dissolved copper. Your other option is to part the silver in a silver cell, which, with care, can yield silver of excellent quality (better than 9995).

Harold


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