# Dental waste vs. cats



## kjavanb123 (May 5, 2011)

All,

As i am waiting to prepare a rotating machine to move my cats inside the hot AP and sulfuric, i was thinking which sources would have more PGMs and easier to recover and refine? 1 kg of dental wastes or 1kg of honeycomb? 

Also, i have sodium chlorate in powder form, is there any home made methods i can produce granule from the powder?

Thanks
Kev


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## Lou (May 5, 2011)

Dental scrap (waste) by far.

It usually runs several percent (into the tens) of Pt. It's great stuff and my favourite thing to process!


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## kjavanb123 (May 5, 2011)

Lou,

As you know, i started PGM refining with cats, and I haven't given up on it yet, as i am building a new cool machine which soon post pics. I have few relatives who are dentists, do they know the type of alloys that have PMs in it? how should i buy? is it like $/lb? what would be a good price? I presume the refining the PGMs should be same as cat refining once they are in the solution?

Thanks
Kev


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## kjavanb123 (May 6, 2011)

i went ahead and read lots of posts about dental and got some ideas, now just to verify with you pros here, an example from ebay.

17K dental gold, scrap crowns, onlay, 11 grams.

17k/24k = 0.708
0.708 x 11grams = 7.788g of pure gold in 11grams.

assuming 90% recovery rate, processing the 11grams dental scrap would produce
7.788g x 90% = 7.009grams of pure gold

at current spot price for gold $1479.90 / oz
$1479.90 / 28 = $52.83 / grams
7grams x $52.83 = $369.9 worth of gold in 11grams assuming 90% recovery

Now this ebay offer is currently at $260.56 and bidding for another 19hrs. if the auction closes at this rate, net profit to refine 11grams dental scrap is
$369 - $260.5 = $109.4

I can't post pic here, but could it contain some PGMs as well? 

Thanks
Kev


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## Harold_V (May 6, 2011)

Yellow dental gold, unless it has been used by compacting a filling in a tooth, generally contains palladium, and often platinum, but the alloy can vary widely. How this person *knows* it's 17K is a mystery to me. It can be quite low in gold, depending on its age. When gold hit $875 in '80, several new low gold alloys were introduced to the market. 

I'm not suggesting the item on ebay isn't a good buy, but I am suggesting you give it some serious thought before spending that kind of money (unless you have it to lose). If nothing else, insure it's yellow. All too many have purchased dental appliances that are totally lacking in precious metals. 

Harold


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## kjavanb123 (May 6, 2011)

Harold

thanks for ur input. I havent even get my feet wet with refining dental scrap, was just checking out ebay to get some basic information about what dental scraps look like and how much they sell for.

Back to main topic, cats vs. dental scrap. I just did another calculation using a typical US standard honeycomb. as following
assume it has 1000ppm Pt, 500ppm Pd, and 200ppm Rh. and it weighs 1300kg, then

1000ppm Pt = 1000grams of Pt in 1,000,000grams of cat, so for the cat that weigh 1300kg the amount of Pt = (1000 x 1300) / 1,000,000 = 1.3g Pt
500ppm Pd = 500grams Pd in 1,000,000 grams of cats, so for our sample cat = ( 500 x 1300 ) / 1,000,000 = 0.65g Pd
200ppm Rh = ( 200 x 1300 ) / 1,000,000 = 0.26g Rh

Now assuming the recovery rate for cat is also 90% on the first leach. 

Pt = 1.3g x 90% = 1.17g 
Pd = 0.65g x 90% = 0.58g 
Rh = 0.26g x 90% = 0.23g

At today spot prices;
Pt value in the cat = 1.17g x $1785 / 28 = $74.58
Pd value in the cat = 0.58g x $709 / 28 = $14.68
Rh value in the cat = 0.23g x $2130 / 28 = $17.49

Total value in the given cat = $106.75

I can purchase this cat for $20, spend another $5 on acid and chemicals so the total expenses = $25 let's round it to $30.

Estmiated profit for one cat = $106.75 - $30.00 = $76.75

vs.

Estimated profit for the 17K dental scrap posted on ebay assuming that is 100% legit = $109.4

The only thing here is the quantity of cats vs. dental scrap yr around. I know i can get my hands on over 500 cats per week, on ball par how much dental scrap can be collected in the same week?

I just think sticking with refining the cats is better than dental in scaled up. Awaiting for ur inputs on this.

Kev


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## bubba (Jun 25, 2011)

kjavanb123 said:


> Harold
> 
> thanks for ur input. I havent even get my feet wet with refining dental scrap, was just checking out ebay to get some basic information about what dental scraps look like and how much they sell for.
> 
> ...



Wow.
Prepare to lose everything you put into this endevor, I can't remember how many people i have seen go down this road.
How much do you say your average cat weighs, 1300 what?
The average cat will weigh 2.2 pounds.
Your "average" assay of 1000, 500, and 200 would only work in one category, Low grade, non AC stamp GM.
That's only one category. We have over 60 Categories.
So how are you going to pay for the units that are zero pt., 1000 pd., and zero rd.? Do you know what those look like? how much would you lose per unit? 
You can buy 500 units a week for $20 each?, sure you can, I will sell you 1500 units a week for $20 each, they might be worth $6 in this market.
But there is no way, anywhere in the U.S., that you will buy an average mix, meaning the mix that an average yard or shop produces for $20 each. Not and be able to produce that much volume. This business is saturated, there are guys driving around every part of this country buying cats, and if you want to compete be prepared to only make about a $3.00 - $5.00 per piece gross profit. And pay, right now an average of $60- $70 per unit. 
And if you are only recovering 90%, and paying $5.00 for chemicals, then you have lost before you started becouse your competition can sell his cats to us and get almost 90% return on his material selling the whole units. 
This is the point in my story where this person usually dismisses what I am saying, only to jump out and lose $100k or more, and then scratch their heads and wonder what the hell happened. www.westerncatalyst.com


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## patnor1011 (Jun 25, 2011)

I believe that he is not located in USA. Last time he said he is from Pakistan. I don't know why he has USA in profile as his location. 
His calculations can be different as cats in Pakistan may be different too.


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## qst42know (Jun 25, 2011)

> assuming 90% recovery rate, processing the 11grams dental scrap



You should be able to beat 90% recovery by far on dental scrap after all it's not nanoparticles dispersed throughout an impervious porous refractory.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 26, 2011)

All,

I am from the state, but have traveled here for almost yr for business opps specially in mining and now refining. Most of the cats here in Middle East regions that are being traded r made in France or Korea and Japan. I am running a test on one of them French made. 

Also i presumed those numbers on cats. still trying to assay one French cat. There r 500 pieces collected per week.

These cats have been shipped to Germany every month, I am sure the end user would assay the cargo before any further purchase, and if these cats had no values in them, the guy collecting and sending them over would not be able to continue for this long. I never said that is the content of PGMs in those cats, I am testing one right now, to figure out estimate PGMs i can recover from this typical $20 catalytic converter, of course i won't spend $1000s on this.


Thanks
Kev


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## bubba (Jun 28, 2011)

If you are not in the U.S., then that changes absolutely everything.
Values on cats in other countries are half or less of those that are OEM in the U.S.


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## Lou (Jun 28, 2011)

Other countries that aren't in the EU, you mean.


IIRC, Umicore does much with cats there.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 29, 2011)

That is why I am shipping few 100-gram catalytic samples from here to Acme Labs to be tested for content of PGMs before mass production here. which i will post the results in few weeks. 

Umicore is the final destination for most of the catalytic converters that are being shipped from this region, obviously if they didn't have any value in them, plus all the shipping costs from here to EU and all the customs and few traders inside this chain, I mean does umicore makes only few dollars per cat that are imported from here? based on the $$ I am seeing here I doubt it.

Reg,
Kev


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## patnor1011 (Jun 29, 2011)

UMICORE is one of the largest refiners in world. Maybe even largest. They do not need high percentage as they work with incredible quantities.


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## Lou (Jun 30, 2011)

Stateside, BASF has it wrapped up.


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## skippy (Aug 13, 2011)

I wondered why cat prices were so competitive in these parts. The BASF auto catalyst processing plant is just three hours away in Lincoln Park Mi! I'll have to ask what their terms are, maybe visit and then go to the Dearborne Ford museum, which I hear is really amazing.


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## Lou (Aug 14, 2011)

You need 3000 lbs IIRC. Payment in 90 days and you had better enjoy the market fluctuations.


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## kjavanb123 (Aug 14, 2011)

I know this is off topic but what do you think future prices for PGMs? Gold seems to be doing great almost same as Platinum. Please advise

Kevin


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## patnor1011 (Aug 14, 2011)

Nobody knows. And what we think is irrelevant. We will see. :twisted:


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