# IC chip process without sulfuric acid



## GoldUser (Apr 21, 2022)

Hello,

I have a few kg of ic chips and now I'm trying to process them.
The Problem is in my country I'm just able to buy HCl/Peroxide/Bleach for my refining.
Until now I did not find any processes without sulfuric acid.
I looked into making it myself but it's kind of a pain in the as because even precursers are not legal right here.
If someone had some advice I would really appreciate it.

Thanks and Greets
David


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## MicheleM (Apr 21, 2022)

Sulfuric acid is dangerous and not necessary unless if your goal is to hack the microprocessor (but in this case fuming nitric acid is better). To recover gold you can use the "Incineration/ pyrolization method" or simply mortar and pestle. There are different ways to avoid the spreading of harmful dust and fumes.


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## GoldUser (Apr 21, 2022)

MicheleM said:


> Sulfuric acid is dangerous and not necessary unless if your goal is to hack the microprocessor (but in this case fuming nitric acid is better). To recover gold you can use the "Incineration/ pyrolization method" or simply mortar and pestle. There are different ways to avoid the spreading of harmful dust and fumes.


Thanks for the fast response.
I do not have access to nitric acid in my country.
Would it work to ash and disolve the gold with HCl and Chlor from Sodiumhypochloride?
David


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## MicheleM (Apr 21, 2022)

Yes, first you have to pan gold from the pulverized/hashed IC chip. The Gold extracted from pulverized IC (mortar and pestle , very tough work to do ) is gold dust very easy to dissolve; the gold extracted from hashed IC chips is in form of tiny wires, they are difficult to dissolve with HCl+bleach but in the end you can


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## Geo (Apr 22, 2022)




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## Geo (Apr 22, 2022)




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## Geo (Apr 22, 2022)




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## orvi (Apr 22, 2022)

Incinerate them and you will be fine. On my opinion the sulfuric acid ashing is unnecessarily dangerous and expensive. Burning the chips is much easier and you do not produce gallons of acidic waste.

Key is to incinerate the chips to just ashes - you need to have plenty of oxygen around to make them crispy grey-white, and not grey-black still inside. You must get rid of all carbon if you intend to leach the ashes.

Sifting and panning will recover most of the gold, but certainly not all. It is a nice thing for people who do not want to get involved in "chemicals", just to burn and sluice/pan the material.


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## Liquidau (Apr 23, 2022)

Geo said:


>



Thanks Geo, I have the exact same cement mixer and run it in a similar fashion, using steel balls and bolts. I tried to use magnetic separation after incinerating but before milling, but found that too much good stuff got stuck on the iron parts. So now I do it after. I also try to do a very thorough incineration the first time (in a furnace) so as to avoid having to do it again, although there’s always something that needs to be reburned and I accumulate enough to then do that. I also have a blue bowl and a gold cube for gravity/centrifugal separation, but congrats to you for the cheaper and effective “poop chute”. 
My dilemma is still the next step—-acid washing, leaching, and AR, versus smelting and refining. I’ll be interested to see your next steps, and to hear what you do, and also get input from the Forum. I’m ramping up to process anywhere from 2 to 20 pounds a day of chips (from 100 to 1,000 lbs of boards per day.)
Cheers!
Len


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## orvi (Apr 23, 2022)

Liquidau said:


> Thanks Geo, I have the exact same cement mixer and run it in a similar fashion, using steel balls and bolts. I tried to use magnetic separation after incinerating but before milling, but found that too much good stuff got stuck on the iron parts. So now I do it after. I also try to do a very thorough incineration the first time (in a furnace) so as to avoid having to do it again, although there’s always something that needs to be reburned and I accumulate enough to then do that. I also have a blue bowl and a gold cube for gravity/centrifugal separation, but congrats to you for the cheaper and effective “poop chute”.
> My dilemma is still the next step—-acid washing, leaching, and AR, versus smelting and refining. I’ll be interested to see your next steps, and to hear what you do, and also get input from the Forum. I’m ramping up to process anywhere from 2 to 20 pounds a day of chips (from 100 to 1,000 lbs of boards per day.)
> Cheers!
> Len


My experience is that with scaling up the operation, you want to get rid of hydrometallurgy, if possible. Gravity separation is the easiest thing to do first. You can get rid of 2/3 of the ashes and practically all the stuff without losing gold in tailings. 
Sifting and panning give you most of the gold. The rest of the still gold containing tailings could then be smelted, if you have appropriate furnance for doing it on quantity cheaply (likely natural gas fueled for cost efficiency). That will go pretty easy, bit of collector metal, flux and it should be a good recovery. Remains of the ICs are practically plain silica sand, so fluxing it out should be relatively easy thing. 
Moreover, you can mix the tails with flux and litharge and carbon directly, in "fire assay" fashion, assuring very good contact of the material with collector metal.

For magnetic material, there is also the possibility of molten lead/bismuth stripping (since the gold is on the surface of the contacts), but I would be worried about recovery efficiency since the big surface area and trapping the lead on the pieces of metal. This approach is very appealing to me, because you will skip the dissolution step = eliminating the gallons of AP waste. If I had enough material to play with, I will definitely try this out. With high enough temperature, you can do multiple smaller batches with same lead/bismuth bath, and only then after multiple strippings proceed to cupellation.


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## Yggdrasil (Apr 23, 2022)

Just out of the top of my head.
You will always loose some, with this method.
Even if your capture during gravity separation is perfect.
There are small ponits "welded" to the connector points (magentic).
When grinded, the gold connector wires get quite mangled,how sure are you that your technique and skills will collect it all?
I feel that incineration and a slow acid BM dissolution method will be better.
I have seen comments, that they throw the magnetics to rust away to collect the last bits.


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## Alondro (Apr 23, 2022)

I see people mentioning 'collector metal' often with the smelting. Unless you plan to use bismuth, it must refer to lead. Now, that means you must also cupel the lead away. I find that FAR more potentially dangerous for an amateur than sulfuric acid. Lead will stay in your body for YEARS if you inhale the fumes created. Sulfuric acid may be very reactive, but the elements composing it: hydrogen, oxygen, and sulfur are non-toxic. 

It's the difference between acute chemical burns, and chronic health hazards. Both are potentially very dangerous, but I just prefer to deal with the acid, which I understand very well from my days working organic chemistry.


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## Geo (Apr 23, 2022)

In my experience, when you use a sluice, whether it's a cheap piece of pipe or consumer brand sluice, You will not collect all the metal in one pass. It takes multiple passes before you can't see visible metal in the rifles. I didn't show everything, much like all youtube videos. After grinding, I classify the material. First, through 1/4" hardware cloth. This gets most chips that didn't incinerate well or any ceramic chips that snuck their way in. Then I place a piece of fiberglass window screen. Not sure of the mesh size but it will catch all but the smallest leads. The final screen is a #100 mesh classifier that sits on a 5 gallon bucket. Bond wires will easily fit through 100 mesh but most leads will not. Anything that will fit through the window screen but not through the 100 mesh gets re-milled. Magnetic separation. I keep this material and make ferrous sulfate with it as such as I can to drop gold from dirty solutions. Plus, I recover the small amount of gold in the magnetic part. The material is leached in nitric acid and a small amount of sulfuric acid in case any iron made it through the magnet. Again, from my experience, before the nitric acid leach, the material will have a fair amount of copper and silver. Save all leaches to reclaim the silver. I acquired a "Magic Gold Wheel" a few years ago and have been using it since. After you get all of the troublesome metals out, even with the small amount of silica and maybe a little carbon, you get a nice golden solution when dissolving the gold.
Just by observation, by the time you get to the magnetic separation, there is enough copper and silver to direct melt the material left and leach the resulting bead. I would add a few grams of silver just to be on the safe side.


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## orvi (Apr 23, 2022)

Alondro said:


> I see people mentioning 'collector metal' often with the smelting. Unless you plan to use bismuth, it must refer to lead. Now, that means you must also cupel the lead away. I find that FAR more potentially dangerous for an amateur than sulfuric acid. Lead will stay in your body for YEARS if you inhale the fumes created. Sulfuric acid may be very reactive, but the elements composing it: hydrogen, oxygen, and sulfur are non-toxic.
> 
> It's the difference between acute chemical burns, and chronic health hazards. Both are potentially very dangerous, but I just prefer to deal with the acid, which I understand very well from my days working organic chemistry.


Yes, that is true. Cupelling lead is relatively hazardous procedure. On the other hand, in 180°C sulfuric acid, all the organic junk we want to avoid with proper incineration is evolved to the air. Unless you are wet ashing in the fume hood, this is nowhere safe. Quite a bit of volatile hazardous stuff can be evolved during the process, and I do not mean the stuff arising from the acid, but from the decomposing plastic. 

On bigger scale, there are also methods how to scavenge the gold from the lead without direct need for cupelling (similar to Parkes process). And recycling the same lead (with leftover traces of gold) for the next batch. But this is more for the production, not for amateur with two or three few kilo batches.

I agree, that for amateurs, AR leaching of the incinerated remains is much easier than going with smelting. But all big players doing not only the IC chips, but whole trucks worth of PCBs are doing it by means of pyrometallurgy.


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## orvi (Apr 23, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Just out of the top of my head.
> You will always loose some, with this method.
> Even if your capture during gravity separation is perfect.
> There are small ponits "welded" to the connector points (magentic).
> ...


With proper incineration with plenty of accessible oxygen, the chips will disintegrate very easily and there is no need for grinding them. Simply stirring the remaining ashes with steel rod in a steel can will produce fine powder mixed with silicon dies and legs. Thick ones require some additional time in the furnance to get there. 
Going through fine sieve, you separate the legs and dies. Magnet will pick up the legs. With gentle manipulation, nothing end up mangled.
But I understand that it could be more convenient to just grind them and then leach. I have done it multiple times this way and it works OK. 
From my point of perspective, it is just about the scale. If I have dozens of kilos to process, I will definitely try to get rid of dissolution steps and focus on pyrometallurgy.


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## kurtak (Apr 24, 2022)

orvi said:


> Key is to incinerate the chips to just ashes - you need to have plenty of oxygen around to make them crispy grey-white, and *not grey-black still inside*


Not quite true - You only need to turn the chips to "complete carbon in the first (incineration) part of the process - I have posted about this "several" time here on the forum -------------









Pyrolysis reactor


All, Since I have been manually depopulating boards, and have accumulated lbs of ICs, SMD capacitor and Ta capacitors. I designed the following prototype as a pyrolysis reactor to rid of fumes, then incinerate them following ball mill, and finally smelting. This design is from NoIdea's post as...




goldrefiningforum.com





Gold inside chips (black, flatpacks - not CPU)

My post is about 2/3 down on the above page









Unable to precipitate gold


The photo I sent with my final results were a bit misleading as it contained little fragments of the graphite crucible as I had difficulty in removing the so called resultant gold, when I removed it parts of the crucible broke off. The powder I was left with was a light brown colour at the start...




goldrefiningforum.com





For what it is worth I used to process 500 - 600 pounds (225 -275 kilos) per year in 50 - 60 pound (23 - 28 kilo) batches

A 50 - 60 pound batch of carbonized IC chips will give you (about) 1/2 - 2/3 of a 5 gallon (20 liter) bucket of fine milled (80 minus mess) carbon --- that (carbon) can then be reduced to (about) a 1/2 of a coffee can of concentrates (panning or concentrator table

It's the carbon in these concentrates that you want to "re-incinerate" insuring the carbon is turned to complete ash before taking the concentrates to leaching or smelting

You just want to make sure you get "complete" carbonization of the chips in the incineration step so that you get very near complete (if not complete) milling during the milling step 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 24, 2022)

Alondro said:


> I see people mentioning 'collector metal' often with the smelting. Unless you plan to use bismuth, it must refer to lead.


Or you can use silver (or copper) as your collector metal 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 24, 2022)

orvi said:


> I agree, that for amateurs, AR leaching of the incinerated remains is much easier than going with smelting.


I agree

The problem for some people (in some countries) is that can't get nitric acid for making AR & like in the case of the OP they can't even get nitrates (like sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate) for making poor man's AR

Which is why he asked -------



GoldUser said:


> The Problem is in my country I'm just able to buy HCl/Peroxide/Bleach for my refining.



I have always had nitric so I can't really speak to using H2O2 or chlorine (bleach) for dissolving gold bonding wires --- I only know that they will both dissolve gold foils (which are VERY light/thin gold)

Gold bond wires are a much thicker/heavier gold - so I "assume" to dissolve gold bond wires with H2O2 you would need a HIGH concentrate H2O2 --- then (because I believe you would end up with LOTS of free/excess oxidizer) I am not sure how you would go about ridding that oxidizer in order to drop the gold

The problem with chlorine (bleach) is keeping the chlorine in solution long enough & in high enough concentration to dissolve the bond wire - it works fine on foils - but bond wires (being heaver) is a different story

Here is a part of what the OP said that I don't quite understand -----------



GoldUser said:


> Until now I did not find any processes without sulfuric acid.
> I looked into making it myself but it's kind of a pain in the as because even precursers are not legal right here.



It sounds like he has looked into making his own nitric using sulfuric with nitrates (sodium or potassium nitrate) but he can't get some - or any of those things ether ?

GoldUser - is that right ? --- if so - is it only some of that stuff you can't get - or all of it you cant get

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 24, 2022)

orvi said:


> Remains of the ICs are *practically plain silica sand,* so fluxing it out should be relatively easy thing.


Orvi - per the bold print - the fillers in the black epoxy are for the most part FINE ceramics (like alumina powder) so not silica sand

Also the actual IC chip/die is "silicon" - silicon & silica are two different things - silicon will actually alloy with gold whereas silica does not & so is used as a (acidic) flux ingredient for slagging of metal oxides - silica will also dissolve silicon

Therefore - after milling IC chips & because you will end up small/fine particles of silicon in the concentrates you have to actually add some silica to your flux to dissolve & slag that silicon off or it can end up alloyed with your gold

IF (the BIG IF) you get a GOOD HIGH gold concentrate of bond wires you can direct smelt the gold without a collector metal - but - if you use a borax/soda ash flux (with a "bit" of fluorspar for thinning) you will likely end up with a gold/silicon alloy --- adding some actual silica to the flux/smelt will slag the silicon off

Concentrates from N/S bridge BGAs (the black epoxy top only) is a good example of where you can get a GOOD HIGH gold concentrate that can go to direct smelt without a collector 

Kurt


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## Geo (Apr 24, 2022)

To remove excess H2O2 or hypochlorite from solution is fairly easy and straightforward. Heat the solution to a low boil for a prolong period of time. Hypochlorite is destroyed at around 210°F and H2O2 is destroyed at around 303°F. Higher concentrations may take longer. Hair bleach is about the highest concentration a normal consumer grade is about 12% concentration but there are ways to get 20% concentrations if you know where to look. 

In my experience, these oxidizers are too weak to effectively dissolve massed bonding wires. In all the years I've been doing this, I have never really been able to isolate just the gold bond wires from copper and silver. The copper is problematic without nitric acid or nitrate substitute. The copper, being more reactive than gold, tends to dissolve first. Using a weaker oxidizer would takes days of diligent oversight and small additions of oxidizer because the leach needs to be hot and heat destroys the oxidizer. You are only benefitting from a portion of the oxidizer used.


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## orvi (Apr 24, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Orvi - per the bold print - the fillers in the black epoxy are for the most part FINE ceramics (like alumina powder) so not silica sand
> 
> Also the actual IC chip/die is "silicon" - silicon & silica are two different things - silicon will actually alloy with gold whereas silica does not & so is used as a (acidic) flux ingredient for slagging of metal oxides - silica will also dissolve silicon
> 
> ...


I never came across any other filler than silica. In the manufacture of the classic IC chips as we process, silica is very helpful to cut the difference between thermal expansion coefficients of silicon and molded plastic. If there is too much of a difference, cooling and heating of the chips (eg during soldering, or simply dissipating heat when operating) could cause cracks in brittle silicon. Ceramics do not have that favourable properties and manufacture of ceramics in precise shape is also much more expensive. 
It isn´t exactly sand, but small silica spheres.


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## kurtak (Apr 25, 2022)

orvi said:


> I never came across any other filler than silica. In the manufacture of the classic IC chips as we process, silica is very helpful to cut the difference between thermal expansion coefficients of silicon and molded plastic. If there is too much of a difference, cooling and heating of the chips (eg during soldering, or simply dissipating heat when operating) could cause cracks in brittle silicon. Ceramics do not have that favourable properties and manufacture of ceramics in precise shape is also much more expensive.
> It isn´t exactly sand, but small silica spheres.


I don't mean to argue (as I certainly don't know everything) however quite a number of years ago - & because processing IC Chips on a regular basis in relatively large batches I wanted (needed) to know just what was/is in them for safety concerns --- so did my research

Thermal expansion is certainly a concern when it comes to IC packages for the prevention of failure

the fact is that they use a number of different fillers in IC epoxy to address the thermal expansion issue depending on thermal dynamics of the chip (Kovar lead frame, copper lead frame, amount of data the chip is processing etc.)

Here is a discussion you may find interesting about that very thing back in 2016 









IC powders


People are blind when gold is involved. People will do what they have to get to the finished product. I know they will and you know they will. Do we just say "don't do it under any circumstance"? Even though they labeled their product as causing cancer and lung disease, underweight newborns...




goldrefiningforum.com





according to my research (back then) alumina & aluminum nitride are two of the more common filers used - other fillers at least mentioned in my research are - silicon carbide, beryllium oxide, & yes silica

Note that my research came from both chip epoxy patents as well as chip *manufacture* web sites

Bottom line - there are "lots" of possible (if not likely) nasties to be encountered when processing IC chips 

Not just the nasties in burning the epoxy - but nasties in the dust of the burned (carbon) epoxy

Kurt


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## Alondro (Apr 25, 2022)

orvi said:


> Yes, that is true. Cupelling lead is relatively hazardous procedure. On the other hand, in 180°C sulfuric acid, all the organic junk we want to avoid with proper incineration is evolved to the air. Unless you are wet ashing in the fume hood, this is nowhere safe. Quite a bit of volatile hazardous stuff can be evolved during the process, and I do not mean the stuff arising from the acid, but from the decomposing plastic.
> 
> On bigger scale, there are also methods how to scavenge the gold from the lead without direct need for cupelling (similar to Parkes process). And recycling the same lead (with leftover traces of gold) for the next batch. But this is more for the production, not for amateur with two or three few kilo batches.
> 
> I agree, that for amateurs, AR leaching of the incinerated remains is much easier than going with smelting. But all big players doing not only the IC chips, but whole trucks worth of PCBs are doing it by means of pyrometallurgy.


That's why I found the process from Researchgate that required heating only to 125C. And to only dissolve silver and palladium, it only requires heating the sulfuric to 80C for several hours to overnight, especially with just plating which will dissolve away quickly. 

I burn the chips up first regardless, since it reduces the volume so much, meaning much less acid is needed to cover the material, AND it prevents the formation of the goo that results from sulfuric reacting with some plastics.

It's simple to burn the chips with a scrap steel mesh over a simple wood fire with plenty of air flow, and the sticks and scrap wood cost nothing! Doing the burn first saves on the use of acid and has no expense itself. 

Big industrial places have scrubbers in the chimneys to grab the lead fumes. If you need to cupel for testing and assaying material, then it's not too bad. Just keep away from the kiln while the process is taking place and a respirator is needed when you need to approach and peek inside. 
I watch how Mount Baker Mining does it quite a bit. I will need to do a cupel assay at some point on some ore samples, and I'll be making sure to do it right with the lowest amount of lead possible.


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## orvi (Apr 25, 2022)

kurtak said:


> I don't mean to argue (as I certainly don't know everything) however quite a number of years ago - & because processing IC Chips on a regular basis in relatively large batches I wanted (needed) to know just what was/is in them for safety concerns --- so did my research
> 
> Thermal expansion is certainly a concern when it comes to IC packages for the prevention of failure
> 
> ...


I am also just discussing, because I don´t know it either. On the other side, I read a whole bunch of papers regarding mold manufacture of standard plastic ICs. And in all of them, only silica was stated as filler in the chips.

Alumina, aluminium nitride, beryllium oxide and silicon carbide are all used, but in special ceramics compositions for manufacture of quality high frequency chips. They all possess one feature (except plain alumina) - they are a lot more expensive than silica spheres. A lot, mainly size-defined AlN particles and BeO of course.
And they could be used for specialty applications, where heat transfer is needed even through the plastic package. This is not common nowdays, as we now have numerous other packages with heatsinks like SOT or TO packages.

And if it does not need to be special, it will be just silica. Natural pulverized silica, or even precipitated inorganic SiO2 for applications, where even traces of natural uranium and thorium are concerning because of "bit flip".

Below I attach a good small review about the manufacture process of our familiar black ICs, overall very interesting reading. So much work made, and now I just putting them into the furnance


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## orvi (Apr 25, 2022)

I overall do not like sulfuric acid ashing, but it´s personal  for me it is just wasting acid. But folks somwhere in India where it costs nothing compared to our prices may be happy with it 

Classical litharge fire assay smelt should be OK and there is no need for big ammounts of lead. If lead is a problem, bismuth could be a solution. Similarly as litharge, you can use Bi2O3. But it is harder to find.


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## Alondro (Apr 26, 2022)

orvi said:


> I overall do not like sulfuric acid ashing, but it´s personal  for me it is just wasting acid. But folks somwhere in India where it costs nothing compared to our prices may be happy with it
> 
> Classical litharge fire assay smelt should be OK and there is no need for big ammounts of lead. If lead is a problem, bismuth could be a solution. Similarly as litharge, you can use Bi2O3. But it is harder to find.


I managed to get 4 gallons of conc. sulfuric for $80. That'll last me for a LONG time, since I use it for very specific processes. That's MUCH lower than an equal amount of nitric would cost me, plus it will dissolve roughly double the amount of metal (bivalent vs monovalent anion).

Nitric will be used for silver (in a silver electrolytic cell) and palladium purification. I don't think I'll run into much platinum with the material I have, so that's not really a consideration. 

Oh, speaking of chips, I don't know how many people know that the 90's SMD IC transistors (the ones with the solid copper backing) have gold bond wires through the plastic. I ripped a couple off to see what was in them, and one cracked just right to expose a fairly long gold wire! Naturally, I broke up the plastic of several more, and sure enough, they all had the wires. 

It's a bit blurry, but you can see the reflection of the gold wire in the sunlight. Given how small these devices are, to see visible gold wires means they're really worth collecting! They have much less plastic material and base metal to remove versus large chips.


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## Alondro (Apr 26, 2022)

Here's what those IC transistors look like on the boards.


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## kurtak (Apr 27, 2022)

Alondro said:


> Here's what those IC transistors look like on the boards.
> 
> View attachment 49775


in as much as "*some*" of those have gold bond wires - *some* of them are made with aluminum bond wires









My results of specific types of IC chips, flatpacks and BGA


i am planning to test them. Great! I have wondered about them myself! Can`t wait to see your results! Too bad they are so tiny, TO-220 is much larger! Any idea about TO-263 package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TO-263 or MOSFET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET, They seem to be common on...




goldrefiningforum.com





So you would need to know the part number of each & every type TO transistor package - test each type to determine which have gold bond wires & which have aluminum wires

Also - *there are only two bond wires* (which could be gold - or - aluminum) in each of these



Alondro said:


> to see visible gold wires means they're really worth collecting!



Therefore yield on these is likely to be* less* then .1 gram per kilo

The copper plate that the silico die is mounted on is likely worth more then then the bond wires 

Because there is so little gold in them I never processed then "alone" for the bond wires

However - I did save them - but for the copper not the gold

When I had a couple 5 gallon (20 liter) buckets of them I incinerated them - milled them - then sifted them to separate the copper from the carbon - the carbon (which had very little gold in it) then went in with the carbon from higher grade incinerated IC chips - then run across my concentrator table

So yes - any (*small*) amount of gold in those was recovered - but in reality it was a "*small*" addition to processing "much" higher grade material --- in other words - the gold was a "*small*" by product in actually going for the copper 

Personally - these are so low grade (only two bond wires) I would never go after these - in & of them selves - for the gold --- you will in fact need a couple 5 gallon (20 liter) buckets of them to get a "*few*" grams of gold

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 27, 2022)

Alondro - to put it in perspective - read this -----------









My results of specific types of IC chips, flatpacks and BGA


This is my little contribution to the site, I have tested various types of chips for gold content using these steps: 1. Separation of the specific type of chips, removing paper stickers if any, removing wires from the edges of the chips with scalpel (*some types of chips are processed along with...




goldrefiningforum.com





Scrole down to post 8 

Those are PROM type chips - they have *many more bond wires* in them (then the TO transistor chips/packages)

They (the PROMs) only pay (yield) .245 gram per kilo 

So you can't expect much of a yield out of a kilo of chips that "may *or not* have gold bond wires (some having aluminum bond wires) 

Kurt


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## Geo (Apr 27, 2022)

Transistors can only have two bond wires. They are so low yield for gold, you would make a better profit to process them for their copper. I imagine sorting out the bond words couldn't hurt but I certainly would not process them for the gold value. In my opinion, they cost more in chemicals and time than you would make off of them. Mosfets like the ones in the picture have notorious low yields for gold.


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## Alondro (Apr 27, 2022)

kurtak said:


> in as much as "*some*" of those have gold bond wires - *some* of them are made with aluminum bond wires
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With these little IC transistors, the plastic is very brittle. It's easy enough for me to crush it off, which generally happens regardless when you wrench them off the boards. I can see the bond wires when I do that and tell at once which kind they are. The copper generally is still stuck the to the boards at that point, then I grab the edge of it and peel it off. So, it's just a matter of burning the plastic away to release the bond wires.

The BIG old IC transistors I'm just saving for copper.


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## orvi (Apr 28, 2022)

Speaking of transistors, some old THT mount classical types in TO92 or larger casings, old manufacture, has gold plated pins under the plastic. Sometimes whole copper heatsink is plated from the inside of the transistor, plus gold bonding wires. More rated current for the transistor, thicker the bonding wires.
But yes... Low yield anyway. It all come to incineration, if you want to recover the copper. And it is fairly easy to separate copper heatsinks from anything else  saving the ashes for sluicing or leaching. These would have bit thicker wires compared to most of the IC chips (I assume from larger rated current), so panning/sluicing will be a bit more effective


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## patnor1011 (Apr 28, 2022)

If the OP cant get nitric in Vienna all they need to do is to pop in north to slovakia and get few bottles in any hardware shop.


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## kurtak (Apr 28, 2022)

orvi said:


> Speaking of transistors, some old THT mount classical types in TO92 or larger casings, *old manufacture*, has gold plated pins under the plastic. Sometimes whole copper heatsink is plated from the inside of the transistor, plus gold bonding wires.


Per the bold print - true enough - as we know - generally speaking *OLD* stuff was often manufactured with more PMs then newer stuff 



orvi said:


> More rated current for the transistor, thicker the bonding wires


Also true enough the 2 bond wires in the MOSFETs are "a bit" longer & "may" be "a bit" thicker - BUT - they still don't add up to the yield of the PROMs I pointed out in the thread posted by Tzoax - "maybe" half (likely less) the yield of PROMs

So lets put that in perspective -----

PROMS run (about) .24 gram gold per kilo - lets call it .25 g (for easy math)

So (about) 4 kilos (or "about" 9 pounds) to recover 1 gram --- (and that is A LOT of chips - meaning you have to de-populate A LOT of boards to get that many chips)

A troy ounce gold = 31.1 grams (call it 31g)

So 31 X 4 = 124 kilos to recover 1ozt 

A 5 gallon (20 liter) bucket will hold (about) 18 - 20 kilos of PROMs

That means you would need (about) 6 buckets of PROMs to recover a ozt gold 

Now double that to recover a ozt gold from MOSFETs = 12 buckets to recover 1 ozt gold

Now think about how many boards you would need to de-populate just to get 1 bucket chips --- let alone 6 buckets (PROMs) or 12 buckets (MOSFETs)

My point --- when it comes to the PMs in e-waste - some things are worth chasing - other things (though they may well have PMs in them) simply are NOT worth chasing

At least (& for sure) not in & of them selves

Therefore -----------



Alondro said:


> Given how small these devices are, to see visible gold wires *means they're really worth collecting!*



Per the bold print - in the case of MOSFETs - the fact of the matter is that they are so LOW GRADE that they most certainly are not worth casing - at least not in & of them selves

Or as Geo said -------



Geo said:


> Transistors can only have two bond wires. They are so low yield for gold, you would make a better profit to process them for their copper. I imagine sorting out the bond words couldn't hurt but I certainly would not process them for the gold value. In my opinion, they cost more in chemicals and time than you would make off of them. Mosfets like the ones in the picture have notorious low yields for gold.


To clarify - it is NEVER worth while - "chasing" - this kind of low grade stuff - in & of it's self - but -----

It does hurt if "some" of this LOW grade ends up in the process of casing the actual high grade

Example of how "some" of this "low" grade can end up "mixed in" with you chasing "high" grade ------

If you use a chisel to knock off a high grade chip & there is a MOSFET next to it that also comes off - toss them both in the bucket - BUT - what you DON'T do is go chasing after every MOSFET that is on the board --- they simply are NOT worth it !!!

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 28, 2022)

Alondro said:


> then I grab the edge of it and peel it off. So, it's just a matter of burning the plastic away to release the bond wires.


Alondro --- you will need (about) 6 - 8 kilos of these just to get 1 gram of gold

That is (about) 1/4 - 1/3 of a 20 liter bucket of these

Do you have any Idea of how many circuit boards you would have to pull these off of - just to get that 1 gram of gold ------------

*HUNDREDS *of boards - & I do mean hundred*S* - as in likely approaching 1,000 (& maybe even more) boards

For what ? --- a gram of gold ?

For what it is worth Alondro - I used to process around 500 - 600 pounds (230 - 270 kilos) of chips per year

I would NEVER even *chase* the PROMs (they are so low grade) *let alone chase* MOSFETs --- they simply are NOT worth it

I *chase* the HIGH grade - & if in the process "*some*" low grade ends up in the mix - so be it 

Kurt


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## GoldUser (Apr 28, 2022)

kurtak said:


> I agree
> 
> The problem for some people (in some countries) is that can't get nitric acid for making AR & like in the case of the OP they can't even get nitrates (like sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate) for making poor man's AR
> 
> ...


Hello Kurt,
first thanks for all the work u put in here 
I cant get ammonia,potassium,sodium nitrates or any products with could be used for explosives. Its really just HCl/H2O2/Bleach. There is even just one bleach brand that contains it. I looked into making it from air with a lightning generator to break uf the nitrogen & oxygen in the air to make NO2. And further reacts with water to HNO3. It runs on 40W i think. Its from Codyslab:



It seems like its strong enough to dissolve a penny? Could this be used for any good AquaRegia?

Im really disapointed at this point beacause I probably will have to use such methodes.


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## dpgold (Apr 28, 2022)

orvi said:


> Incinerate them and you will be fine. On my opinion the sulfuric acid ashing is unnecessarily dangerous and expensive. Burning the chips is much easier and you do not produce gallons of acidic waste.
> 
> Key is to incinerate the chips to just ashes - you need to have plenty of oxygen around to make them crispy grey-white, and not grey-black still inside. You must get rid of all carbon if you intend to leach the ashes.
> 
> Sifting and panning will recover most of the gold, but certainly not all. It is a nice thing for people who do not want to get involved in "chemicals", just to burn and sluice/pan the material.


is it better to grind after incineration?


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## dpgold (Apr 28, 2022)

kurtak said:


> I agree
> 
> The problem for some people (in some countries) is that can't get nitric acid for making AR & like in the case of the OP they can't even get nitrates (like sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate) for making poor man's AR
> 
> ...


I used HCL and H2O2 of 3 percent, it is very slow, how do I get rid of oxidizer?


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## Alondro (Apr 28, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Alondro --- you will need (about) 6 - 8 kilos of these just to get 1 gram of gold
> 
> That is (about) 1/4 - 1/3 of a 20 liter bucket of these
> 
> ...


I have about 15 pounds of chips. I'll be processing them all at once. I depopulate boards while watching TV, so it's not like I'm losing time! Rather that sitting there doing nothing, I'm getting materials ready. 

I toss the low-grade ones in as well. It takes only a second or two to rip these off the boards, I depopulate everything except resistors and the small glass diodes. 

I make it a point to waste as little as possible, especially since I'm dealing with much smaller amounts of material. Like I mentioned, I'm even processing the aluminum canister capacitors for as much aluminum as I can literally squeeze out of them with my cast iron pipe smelting tube and circular brick press units. The pipe cost nothing, just left behind in an empty lot when an old house was torn down. It's long enough for me to fashion 6 crucibles from. 1/4 inch thick cast iron. Excellent crucible material for lower-temp melts. I've melted Al in such tubes for years with just a wood fire in a kiln made from waste brick, which I have piles of recovered from old houses being torn down. 

I use pretty much everything except the depopulated boards. They just have too much plastic to burn off. 

If you're dealing with MASSIVE amounts of material, then it makes sense to only go for the highest grade or you'll never be able to get through it all. But a little guy like me can take his time and squeeze every drop of metal out. With the aluminum capacitors, LITERALLY squeeze every drop of metal out, lol.


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## Alondro (Apr 28, 2022)

dpgold said:


> is it better to grind after incineration?


Yes, it's absolutely far easier to grind after incineration. The plastic will be all gone, leaving only ceramics and metal.


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## Alondro (Apr 28, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Hello Kurt,
> first thanks for all the work u put in here
> I cant get ammonia,potassium,sodium nitrates or any products with could be used for explosives. Its really just HCl/H2O2/Bleach. There is even just one bleach brand that contains it. I looked into making it from air with a lightning generator to break uf the nitrogen & oxygen in the air to make NO2. And further reacts with water to HNO3. It runs on 40W i think. Its from Codyslab:
> 
> ...



Man, your country is insanely paranoid. Your government must be TERRIFIED of it's people. You go to some African countries, and people are just walking around with full autos slung over their shoulders and no one even thinks twice about it. 

Plus, there are explosives you can make with bleach anyway! (tomorrow, your country bans bleach) Huh... explosives can be made from water? (water = BANNED!) Oh my... o______o


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## GoIdman (Apr 28, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> I cant get ammonia,potassium,sodium nitrates or any products with could be used for explosives. Its really just HCl/H2O2/Bleach. There is even just one bleach brand that contains it.



Hi GoldUser,

To make usable quality nitric acid (if you need nitric acid) you need concentrated sulfuric acid (see Nurdrage video). If you cannot buy 96-97% sulfuric acid because of the regulations, buy *37% electrolite* which is used to rejuvenate car batteries, and you can find it at almost any car parts selling shops and even in some supermarkets.(at least in my country it is so)
To concentrate it use an aquarium heater (gets only up about 50-60C) to evaporate the water and concentrate the acid. The aquarium heater has to be the one which is incased in glass.
For ammonium nitrate buy *Instant Ice packs* (costs up to 5Euro/100gr) which u can find on almost any online store since it is a medical device therefor is legal to buy for anyone.
Rules can be bent if you really want that...but in my opinion ...safety first..

Be safe,

Pete.


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

what would happen with the fine metal particles covered with gold after that if there are any? Thanks


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## orvi (Apr 29, 2022)

dpgold said:


> I used HCL and H2O2 of 3 percent, it is very slow, how do I get rid of oxidizer?


you probably do not have any oxidizer in the solution already. hydrogen peroxide decompose over time in HCl releasing oxygen


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## orvi (Apr 29, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Hello Kurt,
> first thanks for all the work u put in here
> I cant get ammonia,potassium,sodium nitrates or any products with could be used for explosives. Its really just HCl/H2O2/Bleach. There is even just one bleach brand that contains it. I looked into making it from air with a lightning generator to break uf the nitrogen & oxygen in the air to make NO2. And further reacts with water to HNO3. It runs on 40W i think. Its from Codyslab:
> 
> ...



As I am from neighboring country, I feel this. But here, you can buy ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Cheap, like few euros per 5 kg and it is practically ammonium nitrate mixed with dolomite. You need to dissolve it in water and filter - evaporation of the solution will give you ammonium nitrate cheaply.

I won´t personally go with air arc NO2 making. Low efficiency and energy consumpttion is insane. But if you have access to electricity for free, it is a way how to do it.

Do not buy bleach, very diluted. Search for shock pool chlorine - search brands containing calcium hypochlorite. It is in the form of granulated powder. Be aware of chlorine, unforgiving and toxic gas. When using it, always have the vessel covered, because chlorine tend to escape from solutions. Good way is to dissolve hypochlorite in water and deliver it as strong solution through the tube under the surface of the solution - it saves the chlorine evolved.


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

orvi said:


> you probably do not have any oxidizer in the solution already. hydrogen peroxide decompose over time in HCl releasing oxygen


THANKS


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## BlackLabel (Apr 29, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> If you cannot buy 96-97% sulfuric acid because of the regulations, buy *37% electrolite* which is used to rejuvenate car batteries, and you can find it at almost any car parts selling shops and even in some supermarkets.(at least in my country it is so)


In the EU, it's forbidden to sell sulfuric acid (including 37% electrolite) to private persons since February 2021.


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## Zhazham (Apr 29, 2022)

patnor1011 said:


> If the OP cant get nitric in Vienna all they need to do is to pop in north to slovakia and get few bottles in any hardware shop.


Or if have a friend who have a company, ask if can use their business ID to buy acids. I'm under the same EU regulations. Consumers can't even buy battery acid. So, i use my sister's company business ID when buying acids. Also, thinking of collecting nitric from the fumes and waste.


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## orvi (Apr 29, 2022)

patnor1011 said:


> If the OP cant get nitric in Vienna all they need to do is to pop in north to slovakia and get few bottles in any hardware shop.


No chance, nitric sale for general public is also prohibited in Slovakia. Together with hydrogen peroxide >3%, sulfuric acid generally... Chlorates, perchlorates, permanganates... All of the good stuff


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## richoc (Apr 29, 2022)

Wow here in the USA you can buy Virgin Sulfuric Acid at Walmart as a drain cleaner.
The price is a bit high verse buying at a acid supply house, but it is clear unlike the brown stuff they sell at most Home Depots.


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## eaglekeeper (Apr 29, 2022)

Nurdrage on YouTube also has a video on how to make nitric acid by using sodium bisulfate (for adjusting Ph in swimming pools) and a nitrate salt. I found it an interesting video, but I have never made it by this method. Hopefully someone here with more experience can comment on the efficacy of this method.

If this method is viable and someone wants to try it... make sure you are fully educated on safety for distillation. This stuff is probably just as dangerous as sulfuric acid at those temperatures and at *minimum* will scar you for life.


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## GoIdman (May 2, 2022)

BlackLabel said:


> In the EU, it's forbidden to sell sulfuric acid (including 37% electrolite) to private persons since February 2021.


*What I am about to write here is just some ideas for you to understand the diversity of your supply sources and not a recommendation, since you can get hurt if you do something wrong...please note that!*

I dont know what is the regulation in Germany, but where I live, I buy electrolite legally from auto part supply shops for 2 euros/l which gives me 1l (from 4 l of electrolite) of 97% for arount 8 euro. And I also live in an EU country....sounds like the word didn`t get to us yet... ))

Another source could be, car repair shops and junkyards where they collect car batteries....you could get some acid from collecting it from batteries..(safety, safety, safety) of course if you can find a junkyard that is allowing you to collect it....or you can buy used car batteries, collect the acid and sell the battery to the junkyard to recover your money. (safety, safety,safety)

You can produce your own sulfuric acid by combining SO2 solution (sold by the liter at Vine supply shops) with Hydrogen Peroxide (3%, you can buy by the liter since is a medical supply for healthcare industry)...allthough it will give you an unknown concentration acid and is pretty hazardous (a vigurous exotermic reaction, the vessel will get real hot real quick so plastic is out of the question) if you dont know yourself around chemistry...(...i have tried it out of curiosity but never again...)...and again if you try this....then ONLY outside, equipped with mask and way far from the reaction...SAFETY first.

I know that there are quite a few refiners in Germany, find a facebook group where the hang out and ask for their source of acid, i presume they will help gladly.

Sorry for the long comment.

Be safe

Pete


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## orvi (May 2, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> *What I am about to write here is just some ideas for you to understand the diversity of your supply sources and not a recommendation, since you can get hurt if you do something wrong...please note that!*
> 
> I dont know what is the regulation in Germany, but where I live, I buy electrolite legally from auto part supply shops for 2 euros/l which gives me 1l (from 4 l of electrolite) of 97% for arount 8 euro. And I also live in an EU country....sounds like the word didn`t get to us yet... ))
> 
> ...


Here, all kinds of sulfuric acid are banned now. You cannot even purchase batterry acid. Ridiculous how they slowly wipe out all the chemicals from ordinary people. Some time ago, I was able to purchase sulfuric acid drain cleaner for few euros... Now ? I will drain old car batteries in a junkyard in a few months... All nitric is banned, peroxide is banned... Only way how to deal with it is to register as company and buy with business license... Which I cannot achieve here. End of my refining is certainly approaching.


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## MicheleM (May 2, 2022)

orvi said:


> Here, all kinds of sulfuric acid are banned now. You cannot even purchase batterry acid. Ridiculous how they slowly wipe out all the chemicals from ordinary people. Some time ago, I was able to purchase sulfuric acid drain cleaner for few euros... Now ? I will drain old car batteries in a junkyard in a few months... All nitric is banned, peroxide is banned... Only way how to deal with it is to register as company and buy with business license... Which I cannot achieve here. End of my refining is certainly approaching.


It's very sad,i do not understand the reasons of all these restrictions. For sure not to reduce terrorist activities


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## orvi (May 2, 2022)

MicheleM said:


> It's very sad,i do not understand the reasons of all these restrictions. For sure not to reduce terrorist activities


Exactly. If you want to construct a bomb, you will do it despite all restricted chemicals. I dont want to get too political or angry, but with ammounts of weapons "lost" all around the world in various conflicts, some sad liter of nitric will barely make a dent in any "bomb making". Not mentioning the sulfuric acid... How it is supposed to be dangerous for the society ? 

_It is a ridiculous system. I am an organic chemist. Quite a bit of chemicals are restricted because of hazardous nature, and good portion because they are precursors for manufacture of drugs. For example, acetic anhydride is banned, because morphine is acetylated with it to form heroin. Legit, I agree, good regulation. Anyway, acetyl chloride isn´t restricted.. And if you first pour acetic acid (which isn´t restricted of course) to the vessel and then acetyl chloride, you will make acetanhydride in 5 minutes - and extra pure.
Same story with percusion weapons here. You need a license based on psychotests, examination of you "shooting skills" etc. to legally possess a gun here. Legit, I agree, good legislation. On the other hand, from age 18, you can LEGALLY posses percusion firearms, without ANY skill testing, basic safety tests or psychotests, and you can LEGALLY buy gunpowder in the store with your ID. Same gunpowder you can use to make explosives... You do not even need that banned nitric or sulfuric. You purchase it right away. Not speaking about flashopwder in fireworks  strange century..._


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## GoldUser (May 3, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> *What I am about to write here is just some ideas for you to understand the diversity of your supply sources and not a recommendation, since you can get hurt if you do something wrong...please note that!*
> 
> I dont know what is the regulation in Germany, but where I live, I buy electrolite legally from auto part supply shops for 2 euros/l which gives me 1l (from 4 l of electrolite) of 97% for arount 8 euro. And I also live in an EU country....sounds like the word didn`t get to us yet... ))
> 
> ...


Thanks very much.
I will try that


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## GoldUser (May 3, 2022)

orvi said:


> Exactly. If you want to construct a bomb, you will do it despite all restricted chemicals. I dont want to get too political or angry, but with ammounts of weapons "lost" all around the world in various conflicts, some sad liter of nitric will barely make a dent in any "bomb making". Not mentioning the sulfuric acid... How it is supposed to be dangerous for the society ?
> 
> _It is a ridiculous system. I am an organic chemist. Quite a bit of chemicals are restricted because of hazardous nature, and good portion because they are precursors for manufacture of drugs. For example, acetic anhydride is banned, because morphine is acetylated with it to form heroin. Legit, I agree, good regulation. Anyway, acetyl chloride isn´t restricted.. And if you first pour acetic acid (which isn´t restricted of course) to the vessel and then acetyl chloride, you will make acetanhydride in 5 minutes - and extra pure.
> Same story with percusion weapons here. You need a license based on psychotests, examination of you "shooting skills" etc. to legally possess a gun here. Legit, I agree, good legislation. On the other hand, from age 18, you can LEGALLY posses percusion firearms, without ANY skill testing, basic safety tests or psychotests, and you can LEGALLY buy gunpowder in the store with your ID. Same gunpowder you can use to make explosives... You do not even need that banned nitric or sulfuric. You purchase it right away. Not speaking about flashopwder in fireworks  strange century..._


Hey,
I dont know what the goverment/EU is thinking but it kind of makes no sense. I cant even buy battery electrolyte becuase its illegal for a year now. Is there any product that contains dilluted sulfuric acid/nitric acid? Or any products with useful nitrates?
David


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## GoldUser (May 3, 2022)

Alondro said:


> Man, your country is insanely paranoid. Your government must be TERRIFIED of it's people. You go to some African countries, and people are just walking around with full autos slung over their shoulders and no one even thinks twice about it.
> 
> Plus, there are explosives you can make with bleach anyway! (tomorrow, your country bans bleach) Huh... explosives can be made from water? (water = BANNED!) Oh my... o______o


Hey,
bleach is kindof banned already. There are 30 brands and only 1 with sodium hypochlorite in it. I search for some time to get it.
David


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## GoIdman (May 3, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Hey,
> bleach is kindof banned already. There are 30 brands and only 1 with sodium hypochlorite in it. I search for some time to get it.
> David



Uhh...i have just remembered that i have bought HCl (20%) from Hungary for 1 euro per liter from Praktiker store in Zalaegerszeg while i was on holiday last year, also bought some drain cleaner sulfuric.....had no problem when clearing customs...i bought like 5l from each...you can also find electrolite in auto parts selling shops.

You could try even if its a bit expensive to travel but at least you`ll find in some hardware store near the border...after that, it is your thing what you do with it...

Also 3% peroxide is sold at any pharmacy legally...allthough 100-150ml is sold for 2-3 euro...but for starting AP you dont need much.

Worth a try...

Stay safe,

Pete.


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## GoldUser (May 3, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> Uhh...i have just remembered that i have bought HCl (20%) from Hungary for 1 euro per liter from Praktiker store in Zalaegerszeg while i was on holiday last year, also bought some drain cleaner sulfuric.....had no problem when clearing customs...i bought like 5l from each...you can also find electrolite in auto parts selling shops.
> 
> You could try even if its a bit expensive to travel but at least you`ll find in some hardware store near the border...after that, it is your thing what you do with it...
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,
I can get Peroxide and Hcl but the battery acid is illegal for non commercial use. U have to got to the mechanic to change the battery acid. I dont want to go abroud and take it back because its illegal here :/
David


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## GoIdman (May 3, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Hey Pete,
> I can get Peroxide and Hcl but the battery acid is illegal for non commercial use. U have to got to the mechanic to change the battery acid. I dont want to go abroud and take it back because its illegal here :/
> David


If peroxide is legal, then buy SO2 solution from vine supply shops, here is about 2 euro a liter, also legal to have since its used when producing vine....and make sulfuric acid only when you need it....this way you fall out of illegally holding acid restrictions , since you will only hold legal chemicals and produce the amount of acid u will use....i don`t know any other solution to your problem .... maybe someone else has some other ideas...

Be safe

Pete.


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## GoldUser (May 3, 2022)

Alondro said:


> Man, your country is insanely paranoid. Your government must be TERRIFIED of it's people. You go to some African countries, and people are just walking around with full autos slung over their shoulders and no one even thinks twice about it.
> 
> Plus, there are explosives you can make with bleach anyway! (tomorrow, your country bans bleach) Huh... explosives can be made from water? (water = BANNED!) Oh my... o______o





GoIdman said:


> If peroxide is legal, then buy SO2 solution from vine supply shops, here is about 2 euro a liter, also legal to have since its used when producing vine....and make sulfuric acid only when you need it....this way you fall out of illegally holding acid restrictions , since you will only hold legal chemicals and produce the amount of acid u will use....i don`t know any other solution to your problem .... maybe someone else has some other ideas...
> 
> Be safe
> 
> Pete.


Thanks Pete,
I decided to do it with fire instead of sulfuric acid. But i will try the method to make some nitric out of the sulfuric i can make.
David


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## Alondro (May 3, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Hey,
> bleach is kindof banned already. There are 30 brands and only 1 with sodium hypochlorite in it. I search for some time to get it.
> David


o_____________o That time reality was dumber than I could even imagine... (facepalm) Humanity, please stop being crazy.


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## GoIdman (May 4, 2022)

Alondro said:


> o_____________o That time reality was dumber than I could even imagine... (facepalm) Humanity, please stop being crazy.


I can understand regulations because of hazardous chemicals in the hands of people without proper understanding and knowledge, could cause environmental damage...fine by me....I can also understand that some chemicals are banned due to precursors for different illegal activities....fine by me.... 
The crazy thing is...all the world is shouting that there is a waste management problem....yet the are fighting with all means against the reduction of waste.
All the world is shouting that there is a global warming problem...yet governments are limiting environmental NGO financing for planting trees massivly.
And so on for fishing and everything else....
Crazy world indeed...I tend to believe we are starting to walk on the path of "Idiocracy" (like the movie)

Stay safe,

Pete.


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