# What does this signify?



## GregoryMichael (Sep 14, 2022)

I have yet to see any reaction from the urea I have added to my aqua regia.

Assuming everything I did up to this point was correct when defining aqua regia a non reaction from urea signifies?

Obviously I am a novice but then again with YouTube and all of the videos dedicated to teaching how to, is anyone really a beginner? Sorry 


Basically so you have an understanding…

I placed some plated jewelry into the aqua regia before sleep and awoke to a beaker of stagnation and a handful of undissolved base metals.

The mixture was reacting when I last checked yet the jewelry only partially dissolved but enough to remove the gold plate.


So the urea was not necessary?


----------



## Yggdrasil (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> I have yet to see any reaction from the urea I have added to my aqua regia.
> 
> Assuming everything I did up to this point was correct when defining aqua regia a non reaction from urea signifies?
> 
> ...


First and foremost, use your Urea in the garden not in your solution.

Ditch the you tube videos, many can get you injured or worse.

After this do what you should have done first anyway.
Read C.M. Hokes book and then search the forum for what you don't understand after this.
After you have read her book, you should have acquired a slight understanding of what you don't know.

Depending of what kind of jewelry you placed in AR, there are many possibilities for what has happened.
Too high or too low karat scrap, too little heat, unlikely but possible too little Nitric or HCl and so on.
Can you break down what you have done step by step?


----------



## Shark (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> I placed some plated jewelry into the aqua regia before sleep and awoke to a beaker of stagnation and a handful of undissolved base metals.


First mistake. Plated jewelry should not be done in AR. Read more of the forum.


----------



## GregoryMichael (Sep 14, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> First and foremost, use your Urea in the garden not in your solution.
> 
> Ditch the you tube videos, many can get you injured or worse.
> 
> ...


No


----------



## GregoryMichael (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> No


I will continue to watch YouTube videos and I am definitely not reading the book and I will utilize my urea as I purchase it and People on youtube use it and it works therefore it is fine for me. I am not trying to to too technical nor do I require and super refined gold to feel satisfied I am simply looking to recoverAnd process hell repurpose some gold.

Ik its a chemical swinging competition around here but idc and you do not talk to my like you did.

Save my urea for my garden?


----------



## Yggdrasil (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> No


You were the one wanting help, your call mate!


----------



## Yggdrasil (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> I will continue to watch YouTube videos and I am definitely not reading the book and I will utilize my urea as I purchase it and People on youtube use it and it works therefore it is fine for me. I am not trying to to too technical nor do I require and super refined gold to feel satisfied I am simply looking to recoverAnd process hell repurpose some gold.
> 
> Ik its a chemical swinging competition around here but idc and you do not talk to my like you did.
> 
> Save my urea for my garden?


You should loose that chip on your shoulder if you want to have a good and long life.
Chemistry does what it does.
Plenty people has lost money or injured themselves from you tube videos.
Many if the posters cheat to give good results to show and hides anything going bad. They do not make money on refining but on views.
There are a few good ones Sreetips Owltech and a few more. But most are at best accidents waiting to happen.
Urea was developed as a fertiliser and is ok as that. To destroy Nitric and Nitrates not so good. Better use Sulfamic acid, also used as grout cleaner.

But as I said your call and unless you tone down you aggression you won’t last long in here.


----------



## justinhcase (Sep 14, 2022)

Listen to people, Urea and the chemistry we use produces explosive compounds.
We advise against its use for very good reasons.
But it is not my workshop that will burn to the ground when I fail to deal with my waste properly so have at it.
Alienate the very people you are asking to help you.
What a winning strategy.


https://rightresponse.org/de-escalation-skills


----------



## BlackLabel (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> I will continue to watch YouTube videos and I am definitely not reading the book and I will utilize my urea as I purchase it and People on youtube use it and it works therefore it is fine for me. I am not trying to to too technical nor do I require and super refined gold to feel satisfied I am simply looking to recoverAnd process hell repurpose some gold.
> 
> Ik its a chemical swinging competition around here but idc and you do not talk to my like you did.
> 
> Save my urea for my garden?


If you don't want answers, why do you ask?


----------



## 4metals (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> Ik its a chemical swinging competition around here but idc and you do not talk to my like you did.


From the sound of it you’re the one swinging.


----------



## Shark (Sep 14, 2022)

You can always ask those great people on YouTube. But I would bet you get no help there at all.


----------



## justinhcase (Sep 14, 2022)

Shark said:


> You can always ask those great people on YouTube. But I would bet you get no help there at all.


They will help you right into the afterlife.
Or simply flush all your value down the drain because none of them use any sort of waste treatment.
Possibly both.
Though heavy metal poisoning can be fun if you hit just the right amount to be demented but still capable of locomotion.


----------



## galenrog (Sep 14, 2022)

1. Ditch YouTube if the channel has not been recommended by longtime members. For those who do not understand the potential dangers of precious metal recovery and refining, YouTube can kill.

2. Read Hoke. Refining Precious Metal Wastes was first published about 70 years ago and is still the best primer on the subject. While some techniques and many safety concerns have changed over the decades, it is still the best.

3. Ditch the ego. It will not get you far. Most, if not all, of the best refiners on this forum were given the same advice at some point. Arrogance in this field can get you killed, if not worse.

4. Once you have addressed the issues mentioned above, come back with details of what you did to get to this point. Without knowing the process, point by point, no one can give you anything but guesses.

5. In the future, whether you plan on recovery or refining of precious metal, write down your proposed process from start to finish. Once complete, post on the forum for comment. If it is workable, or not, others will let you know and give comments on how to make it better.

Time for more coffee.

Edited for punctuation.


----------



## orvi (Sep 14, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> I have yet to see any reaction from the urea I have added to my aqua regia.
> 
> Assuming everything I did up to this point was correct when defining aqua regia a non reaction from urea signifies?
> 
> ...


YouTube refining, or better said "refining" videos does not show and explain the chemistry involved. Just what attracts people - lots of gold (and they often show unrealistic ammounts of recovered precious metals just to attract your views). Refining is like cooking a soup, but much much more complicated, and if you do not understand theory to the bone, you could be certain that you encounter so many problems with it. You can follow the video like trained monkey, but you fail on first thing that is exceptional. Hopefully, it won´t kill you  And chemistry always does what it should - question is, do you know what it should do ?
Urea form very toxic compounds (N-chloroureas, nitrogen trichloride, chloramine...) when reacting with remains of nitric acid, chlorine and nitrosyl chloride (all formed in AR you created). And it also cause problems when dealing with waste by neutralizing with hydroxide - it evolve ammonia quite a bit. And you certainly aren´t the "hero" who will pour heavy metal solutions down the drain  Or are you ?

And lastly, it does nothing to nitric acid, it just form a salt - urea nitrate, which sits happily in solution. Urea reacts just with nitrous compounds ( N(III) ) - that is the fizzing you observe (nitrogen evolved) from the start. And it then stops, because you destroy all N(III) species - but not nitric acid - which still could be present, and you does not know if it is there or not.

Pages and pages written here on the forum about it. Just my posts about urea and sulfamic acid should probably form few pages  

Reactions to your post here count many members who make living refining precious metals. These are professionals, and none of them is using urea or watch skewed YouTube reality. I wouldn´t consider myself a professional, maybe I would describe myself as hobbyist, who pay some bills with refining. Over the course I am here, I learned myriad of things from these professionals, willing to share their best procedures and insights FOR FREE. But if you still want to use urea, go ahead  not my gold, not my issues...

Stay humble, if you have problems refining plated jewellery (what I would consider relatively easy material), you have a lot to learn.


----------



## olawlor (Sep 15, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> ...
> I placed some plated jewelry into the aqua regia before sleep and awoke to a beaker of stagnation and a handful of undissolved base metals.
> 
> The mixture was reacting when I last checked yet the jewelry only partially dissolved but enough to remove the gold plate.


Undissolved base metals will cement out the precious metals from solution. 

Base metals high in silver may not dissolve in aqua regia at all, due to a silver chloride crust, and need to be inquarted and the silver dissolved out with nitric acid before aqua regia.

Reading Hoke will explain this ... but only if you read it.


----------



## Ultrax (Sep 15, 2022)

GregoryMichael said:


> I will continue to watch YouTube videos and I am definitely not reading the book and I will utilize my urea as I purchase it and People on youtube use it and it works therefore it is fine for me. I am not trying to to too technical nor do I require and super refined gold to feel satisfied I am simply looking to recoverAnd process hell repurpose some gold.
> 
> Ik its a chemical swinging competition around here but idc and you do not talk to my like you did.
> 
> Save my urea for my garden?


It is impossible to help anyone who doesn't want to listen to the voice of reason. 
If they don't want to listen and read but want to be rude, maybe better let them get their Darwin award for CH3N3O3?


----------



## justinhcase (Sep 15, 2022)

Ultrax said:


> It is impossible to help anyone who doesn't want to listen to the voice of reason.
> If they don't want to listen and read but want to be rude, maybe better let them get their Darwin award for CH3N3O3?


“If you are not willing to learn, no one can help you. If you are determined to learn, no one can stop you.”​


----------



## Shark (Sep 15, 2022)

justinhcase said:


> “If you are not willing to learn, no one can help you. If you are determined to learn, no one can stop you.”​


Well said!


----------



## justinhcase (Sep 15, 2022)

Shark said:


> Well said!











Zig Ziglar - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Soar2c (Sep 16, 2022)

olawlor said:


> Undissolved base metals will cement out the precious metals from solution.
> 
> Base metals high in silver may not dissolve in aqua regia at all, due to a silver chloride crust, and need to be inquarted and the silver dissolved out with nitric acid before aqua regia.
> 
> Reading Hoke will explain this ... but only if you read it.


What is hoke?


----------



## Shark (Sep 16, 2022)

Refining Precious Metal Wastes by C.M. Hoke. A book every new person interested in refining should read. A digital copy can be found on the forum for free.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Sep 16, 2022)

There are links in my signature line below.

Dave


----------



## pwm97128 (Sep 17, 2022)

*You are working with substances that can kill or permanently destroy your health: Substances that can be inhaled or absorbed through the skin, without your knowledge. *

If you don't want to read the book, I suggest an associates degree in chemistry. That might be enough to save your life. 

Hooke is the small refiner's text book. Available free from the forum library.

Excellent resource for refining known materials, such as karat gold.

See "Sreetips" YouTube channel for how to refine videos.

Tip: recovering gold from random scrap is very difficult and dangerous.


----------



## VK3NHL (Sep 17, 2022)

Soar2c said:


> What is hoke?


----------



## Yggdrasil (Sep 17, 2022)

Soar2c said:


> What is hoke?


C.M. Hoke wrote a book about refining.
It is very on hands and easy to read.
The explanations are quite well done.

You will find it in the signature lines of many members.


----------



## justinhcase (Sep 17, 2022)

Soar2c said:


> What is hoke?


Ms. C.M. Hoke wrote the most fundamental manual for a refiner to study.
She will take you through all the basic problems one at a time in a very easy way to understand.
Then you can start to study the more exotic and detailed publications.


----------



## galenrog (Sep 17, 2022)

Soar2c said:


> What is hoke?


See post #13 on this thread. Point 2 gives a short explanation. 

Time for more coffee.


----------



## Soar2c (Sep 20, 2022)

justinhcase said:


> Ms. C.M. Hoke wrote the most fundamental manual for a refiner to study.
> She will take you through all the basic problems one at a time in a very easy way to understand.
> Then you can start to study the more exotic and detailed publications.


Thank you for that!


----------



## Soar2c (Sep 20, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> C.M. Hoke wrote a book about refining.
> It is very on hands and easy to read.
> The explanations are quite well done.
> 
> You will find it in the signature lines of many members.


Awesome! Thank you for that!


----------



## Soar2c (Sep 20, 2022)

pwm97128 said:


> *You are working with substances that can kill or permanently destroy your health: Substances that can be inhaled or absorbed through the skin, without your knowledge. *
> 
> If you don't want to read the book, I suggest an associates degree in chemistry. That might be enough to save your life.
> 
> ...


Whoa!!! oh shit....ok, well as yes I kinda was aware to some of the long term dangers, its not everyday the reality is laid upon your lap in a manner in which sits you in your seat. So I appreciate that. You may have just saved my life, if it is even possible at this point since all of my smelting has been done inside a large open church I've been converting to a mineral prospecting workshop. I assume its time to install my air filtration with activated carbon filters, since they're just laying around, and that respirator that lays right next to kiln that I purchased I NEED to actually use the damn thing. Sometimes because the effects aren't observed immediately, it doesn't shock me into reality. This post most definitely has. So pwm97128, who ever you are, I thank you!


----------



## Soar2c (Sep 20, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> There are links in my signature line below.
> 
> Dave


How awesome, thank you for making that insanely easy Dave / FrugalRefiner!


----------

