# I ask for advice or expert opinion!



## kole55 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hello everyone on the forum! In a jar I plan to put pins and bring air from the aquarium pump. Then I connected another piece of cable from the jars gas discharge into another plastic container. Now I have a question how gas is produced in the reaction and that you will keep the water in another bowl? My goal is to "pick up" gases in the container with water that does not disperse after the garage. Will it work? Thanks for any comment.


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## bswartzwelder (Jan 9, 2015)

Not enough information on what you're wanting to do. No process which off gasses should be done indoors whether it be a house, basement, or garage. Have you read Hoke? How much of the forum have you read? It appears you are a long way from doing anything safely.


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## kole55 (Jan 9, 2015)

bswartzwelder said:


> Not enough information on what you're wanting to do. No process which off gasses should be done indoors whether it be a house, basement, or garage. Have you read Hoke? How much of the forum have you read? It appears you are a long way from doing anything safely.



OK! I apologize for the lack of information. I think the process of AP. So the question that the gases are released in the process of pins in the AP, and whether it will be water "consumed" in the second container (plastic bottle) which is connected to a vessel containing the pins or AP. See pictures.
the glass container see two cables is one of the aquarium pump and the other is connected to a plastic bottle which is water and which is used for the supply of gas during the reaction in that bottle.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jan 9, 2015)

kole, when you start a batch oh AP, the fumes are primarily chlorine and HCl gas. They will consume any metal they touch, like the tools hanging on the wall. As the AP develops, the HCl level drops, and so the amount of HCl in the fumes also decreases, but there will still be some present.

Bubbling the fumes into the bottle won't accomplish much because the bubbles will quickly rise to the top, burst, and the gas will simply join the gas in the bottle before being forced out. The fumes will only have the surface area on the top of the water to react. A scrubber depends on retention time, that is, the fumes need to be in contact with the liquid for a long enough time to react and/or be absorbed. 

Scrubbers usually have a lot of surface area to accomplish this. If you filled your bottle with glass or plastic beads, then sprayed water over the beads, the fumes would be in contact with all the wet surfaces for a much longer time. 

Better than water would be to use a solution of sodium or potassium hydroxide. The hydroxide would react more readily with the HCl fumes.

Finally, if you added a second hose to your scrubber bottle for the exhaust, and led that hose out that open window to the outside, you'd be better off.

As has been said, you don't want to run any of these processes in a house or garage or anywhere else that has anything of value in it.

Dave


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## necromancer (Jan 9, 2015)

here is the AP scrubber i built. it is also used while vacuum filtering but you may not need to use a vacuum (it's not part of the AP filter)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20744&hilit=diy


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## kole55 (Jan 9, 2015)

FrugalRefiner said:


> kole, when you start a batch oh AP, the fumes are primarily chlorine and HCl gas. They will consume any metal they touch, like the tools hanging on the wall. As the AP develops, the HCl level drops, and so the amount of HCl in the fumes also decreases, but there will still be some present.
> 
> Bubbling the fumes into the bottle won't accomplish much because the bubbles will quickly rise to the top, burst, and the gas will simply join the gas in the bottle before being forced out. The fumes will only have the surface area on the top of the water to react. A scrubber depends on retention time, that is, the fumes need to be in contact with the liquid for a long enough time to react and/or be absorbed.
> 
> ...




Thanks Dave! I use a maximum of 19% HCl. I know that the gas from it but not as 32%. Otherwise it is an acid which is used for removing lime in the sewer. The windows are normally open to the garage all the time. I can only work in the garage. When do hcl / cl I doing out there. I do not use anything else for processes (HNO3, H2SO4) work only with hcl 19%. Be exported outside the cable but I thought that completely eliminate the gases so that they gather in the plastic bottle (which is filled with water) They are hermetically closed while running the AP only when I took off the lid with glass bottles when removing the saturated AP hmmmm whether this gas back through the cable ie. on the cover of glass bottles when you take it off.


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## kole55 (Jan 9, 2015)

necromancer said:


> here is the AP scrubber i built. it is also used while vacuum filtering but you may not need to use a vacuum (it's not part of the AP filter)
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20744&hilit=diy




Good post.


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## Pantherlikher (Jan 9, 2015)

Hello kole55 and welcome to the forum.
First and formost...please stop and read the welcome and then safety section of this forum.
You are headed down the same path as every newbie... Dive into the pool without checking for water.

When you open the container and pour HCL into your thingy...you will get a nice blast of Chlorine gas. 
That alone should smack you in the head hard enough to make sure all air goes right out the window and does not linger anywhere enclosed.

Do a forum search on AP and read...please learn what it is you want to do. There are better ways to de plate gold from pins.

Please forget what video you got this idea from and read the forum so you get gold, and not hurt anyone.

B.S.


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## kole55 (Jan 9, 2015)

Pantherlikher said:


> Hello kole55 and welcome to the forum.
> First and formost...please stop and read the welcome and then safety section of this forum.
> You are headed down the same path as every newbie... Dive into the pool without checking for water.
> 
> ...




Thank Pantherlikher! That's what I was wondering. My first question was which gases are released in the reaction of AP. So if the chlorine he will not remain in the water, must go. We leave some time gold chloride (HCl / cl process) to evaporate excess chlorine. Everything I read about sulfur cell, it works best for the pins, but like I said I do not want to work with H2SO4, nor with HNO3. I limited myself to only the 19% HCl and peroxide. Otherwise I did so far several times his fingers in AP without problems. I continue to work as before with the windows open in the garage. That's why I have not tried this either until I check the forum and I post title says it.


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## Magagna (Jan 10, 2015)

necromancer said:


> here is the AP scrubber i built. it is also used while vacuum filtering but you may not need to use a vacuum (it's not part of the AP filter)
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20744&hilit=diy


It's very nice. Thank you negromante


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## necromancer (Jan 10, 2015)

your welcome, it's simple & has worked for me.


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## Magagna (Jan 10, 2015)

Excuse me, I'm learning from forum posts. For the recovery gold from plated pins is better as first step one solution of 1 part distillate water and 1 part 70% Nitirc Acid?


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## Pantherlikher (Jan 10, 2015)

Hi Magagna.
You can use nitric acid for pins but there is a lot of "base metal" there and nitric can get expensive.
If only HCL and peroxide is used. You can start with just HCL in a coffee pot with a "watch glass" over it on a warmer. NEVER bring anything to a boil! Here seems people use the word "boil" when it should be heat to just under boil. Boiling will lose "PMs" as well as splatter acid everywhere. 

The " " words are good search words to learn what and how.

B.S.
Open windows invite a nice breeze...Right into your face!...


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## Magagna (Jan 10, 2015)

Pantherlikher said:


> Hi Magagna.
> You can use nitric acid for pins but there is a lot of "base metal" there and nitric can get expensive.
> If only HCL and peroxide is used. You can start with just HCL in a coffee pot with a "watch glass" over it on a warmer. NEVER bring anything to a boil! Here seems people use the word "boil" when it should be heat to just under boil. Boiling will lose "PMs" as well as splatter acid everywhere.
> 
> ...




Sure. My is only curiosity. My only practice is Preserve and collect gold scraps. I'm just reading this forum to purpose to learn. What is intended with this therms: watch glass". I have seen the picture in the Hoke's book but I don't know what is this.


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## Pantherlikher (Jan 10, 2015)

Magagna.
Type it into the search box here in the forum.
It goes in depth and is practice on searching other things and terms you need.
Watch glass is a cover on top of something you can see through.
In the coffee pot explained above. A clear plate of glass sitting on top to keep fumes in but not tightly closed to allow explosive gas pressure to build.
You do not want O2 inside to work with HCL to release Chlorine gas in this case. You want only HCL to warm and dissolve base metals it can, (tin,(solder),etc.). AP needs O2 to interact with the Copper chloride to dissolve more copper.
Both are different processes with different purposes.

Plated pins have tin, copper, or other metals under the plating. You can go right into AP and dissolve everything but the gold plating.
My preference is to get tin out first so there is no problems later on.
You can use spent AP solution or other spent acids to dissolve tin and other metals thus saving on acid use.

B.S.
This is where reading the forum and learning comes in handy...


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## butcher (Jan 10, 2015)

A watch glass can look similar to the glass on a wrist watch, it will have a curve to it, the curve sits down over your beaker, where the fumes collect on the cooler glass, and condense to liquid and will drip back into your beaker, off of the lower curve of the clear glass.

A flat glass may let the liquid drip down the outside of the beaker, where with the curve of the watch glass the drops drip off the middle falling back into solution inside the beaker.

The glass can help to keep dust and bugs out of your solution, and when mildly heating can help to keep volatile gases from escaping and help them to drip back into, or going back into your solution as water or acids, it will not capture all of the gases but a good portion of them.

The watch glass could be a dinner saucer, in the poor mans lab, or an old glass off a clock face...


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## Magagna (Jan 11, 2015)

butcher said:


> A watch glass can look similar to the glass on a wrist watch, it will have a curve to it, the curve sits down over your beaker, where the fumes collect on the cooler glass, and condense to liquid and will drip back into your beaker, off of the lower curve of the clear glass.
> 
> A flat glass may let the liquid drip down the outside of the beaker, where with the curve of the watch glass the drops drip off the middle falling back into solution inside the beaker.
> 
> ...





Great Macellaio. 
I'm Italian and I'm not speak English so good. Many definitions are arab for me. It's very difficult for me to read and understand simultaneously. Now I know what is it the watch glass


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## patnor1011 (Jan 11, 2015)

Kole, no matter that window is open. If you have HCl even small amount in garage it will rust anything which is made of metal. It will not happen overnight but it will happen. I lost few sets of tools and I was just mixing Stannous chloride from time to time. Wits AP process in garage rusting out everything made of metal is not "if", but "when" and it will be sooner than you think.
Your water bottle cant be hermetically sealed because whatever aquarium pump push in must go out. The best suggestion was to make one pipe go out of water bottle to the window outside. But I cant see why cant you just keep bucket with AP outside. Be advised that dissolving pins in AP will take weeks if not months depend on volume. It will take you well in to the spring so there really is no need to ruin your tools and garage over few $ worth of gold from one bottle of acid. Wait till it will be warmer and leave your bucket outside.


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## Magagna (Jan 11, 2015)

Pantherlikher said:


> Hi Magagna.
> You can use nitric acid for pins but there is a lot of "base metal" there and nitric can get expensive.
> If only HCL and peroxide is used. You can start with just HCL in a coffee pot with a "watch glass" over it on a warmer. NEVER bring anything to a boil! Here seems people use the word "boil" when it should be heat to just under boil. Boiling will lose "PMs" as well as splatter acid everywhere.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the good answer. If I had a little of completely clean gold plated pins I could use them directly in nitric acid and water (distillated). Right?
If instead I had this gold plated pins dirty of welding or others materials, before using nitric and water, should I immerse them in warm HCL?


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## MarcoP (Jan 11, 2015)

Magagna said:


> Pantherlikher said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Magagna.
> ...


For welding tin, yes. Warm HCl, AP, strong caustic soda + little 35% hydrogen peroxide, and if I remember right even 10% sulfuric acid.

As for the watch glass, you could use italian coffee cups' porcelain, ceramic or glass plates (piattini per le tazzine da caffè in ceramica, porcellana o vetro).


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## kole55 (Jan 11, 2015)

patnor1011 said:


> Kole, no matter that window is open. If you have HCl even small amount in garage it will rust anything which is made of metal. It will not happen overnight but it will happen. I lost few sets of tools and I was just mixing Stannous chloride from time to time. Wits AP process in garage rusting out everything made of metal is not "if", but "when" and it will be sooner than you think.
> Your water bottle cant be hermetically sealed because whatever aquarium pump push in must go out. The best suggestion was to make one pipe go out of water bottle to the window outside. But I cant see why cant you just keep bucket with AP outside. Be advised that dissolving pins in AP will take weeks if not months depend on volume. It will take you well in to the spring so there really is no need to ruin your tools and garage over few $ worth of gold from one bottle of acid. Wait till it will be warmer and leave your bucket outside.



Thank Patnor! Everything you wrote is okay. Most likely I will and do, carry out setup.


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