# Catalytic converter: biscuit content, various cats



## scwiers (Mar 2, 2009)

hi group,

I'm attaching some pics of various catalytic converters that I've come across. I'm trying to make an informal anecdotal listing of how much biscuit is found in typical catalytic converters, for any people interested.

This project comes about because of various scrap yards I’ve dealt with, who, the moment that they find out you’re interested in something, start wanting to charge you $80 for any old catalytic converter. While this would be a deal for a high-end Mercedes, this price is unrealistically high for cats off of small to mid-size U.S. cars, which are far more typical. It's my understanding that typical U.S. cats contain 1000 ppm PGM, more or less. If I’ve done the math right; $80 is about twice the value of all recoverable PGMs for 1 kg of typical biscuit.

General comments:

--All weights (in lbs) are nominal. Biscuit was removed from the steel housing and weighed on a typical kitchen scale.

--All dimensions of biscuit (inches) are nominal: L" x W" x Thickness"

--In cases where I removed the catalytic converter myself, I give the make (all were legally harvested, of course  )

As I collect more of these, I'll try to keep the gallery up-to-date.

Thanks again,

Sam


----------



## JustinNH (Mar 2, 2009)

Interesting post, thanks for the weights and pictures.
I wouldnt hold off on the future pics due to taking up too much memory. The pictures are sized nicely suck that even lower speeds shouldnt have too long to wait. Pics are always welcome


----------



## Platdigger (Mar 2, 2009)

The first one is an aftermarket, and posibly the last one.
It's hard to tell, is the last one round?
BTW, nice post!
Randy


----------



## jamthe3 (Mar 2, 2009)

You're right on the first one....I took one off a old Dodge pick-up and another off a Jeep Cherokee, so perhaps its an aftermarket item geared towards Chrysler trucks.

John


----------



## Platdigger (Mar 2, 2009)

Well, I have found them that look like that first one on just about anything.
I supose it just depends on which muffler shop they went to.......to get scammed out of there cat...lol.


----------



## jamthe3 (Mar 2, 2009)

Wow, ya know, I'd never even thought about that! I just remember being disappointed & unbelieving that it wasn't a large Chrysler cat. Way too funny, got thirty something (37 i think) & thought it should've been like 60 or 70. Two months later yanked the same exact cat off a Jeep I scrapped & put it on Ebay....got like fifteen bucks! I sure showed them, lol.

What's that guy's signature line say "the stingy man...."

Cheers,
John


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 7, 2009)

I am now curious as to just how much PMS you get out of a pound of Biscuit will yield?


----------



## EDI Refining (Mar 7, 2009)

Thatdarnscrapp said:


> I am now curious as to just how much PMS you get out of a pound of Biscuit will yield?



all the converters vary in pgm content, ALL


----------



## Recyclebiz_com (Mar 21, 2009)

This is the number one question regarding converters I've fielded since I first started recycling them back in 1979. No one has adequately answered this question in the ensuing 30 years, and for good reason. The answer, from a practical standpoint, is irrelevant.

While it would be interesting to know from a pure knowledge standpoint, any answer you come up with is not going to be taken into consideration by anyone you do business with, whether you are trying to buy scrap 'cats', or trying to get top dollar from a buyer for your scrap cats. 

Pulling a list of theoretical converter values based on supposed platinum content out of your pocket during a transaction is certainly not going to influence the other party's opinion as to what the units are worth.

Nor are you going to use this list to any effect in determining whether it is worthwhile to go about recovering the PGMs from you acquired units, because no one has shown they're able to do this on any kind of commercial basis without a multi-million capital investment. 

I'm still waiting for some proof from SOMEONE that they've actually been able to buy scrap cats, open them and process the platinum metal values, and then sell those values to a real buyer for cash, and make a profit (without killing themself) on a consistent basis.

Until somebody can adequately PROVE their ability to do this, trying to answer the question of just how much PGM is in a particular catalytic converter amounts to no more than mental masturbation. 

"The market determines the values"

Best regards - Scott Andrews - Recyclebiz.com


----------



## scwiers (Mar 21, 2009)

You're right; at least in practical terms for certain harvesters, value 'per cat in the can' is beside the point.

Anecdotally, here along the Interstate 96/94 around Detroit, there are a very few people actually buying in bulk from the scrap auto yards (and auto 'charity donation' circuit)--basically, because it's a racket. A crew of harvesters typically go at new wrecks (or, any car, for that matter) with oxy/acetlyne torches or battery-powered sawsalls. In particular, there's at least one operator--let's call him 'Bill'--who locally enforces his harvesting rights around Greater Detroit the ol' fashion'd way; most yards and muffler shops around here don't deal w/ anyone but him; and his collecting is, well, kind' a' like, protection. I met Bill once in his place of work, after spending months trying to contact him. I was told that it would be our only visit.

After quick harvesting of the Detroit cars (not to mention that in certain areas, any sitting car is likely to have its cat removed), Bill told me that he and his crew decan, crush, and mesh the material until it's on the order of PGM 2000 ppm or greater. The lowest grade, several tons at a time, gets shipped in barrels to South America or Asia; better stuff gets resold through a network of dealers in the U.S. who concentrate it even further, and resell it back to ValeInco in Sudbury. But Inco isn't interested in buying from just anybody; here's the response that I got from one of their reps:

"Vale Inco currently processes Autocatalyst product from a sole North American Supplier and currently do not accept autocatalyst from any other suppliers.

Thank you for your inquiry. 

Cedrick Kelly
Director, Raw Materials 
Vale Inco Limited"

The cats pictured above have been *free*, either because I've found them on the side of the road, or because friends let me rip 'em out of their junkers.


----------



## Palladium (Mar 21, 2009)

Welcome back Scott, haven't seen you in awhile. How's life been treating you.


----------



## Recyclebiz_com (Mar 23, 2009)

Business is going well, both the publishing as well as actual collecting. I've just gotten all registered, nice and legal, here in Utah, to start doing home gold parties.

Figure I might as well start buying by the pound from the most prolific sources -the jewelry owners. Interesting article in January National Geo. on gold, and it pretty well illustrated the reason I prefer my business model. They charted the industrial usage of gold, and jewelry manufacture exceeded all other industrial uses combined - by a factor of 10! 
And when I look at the competition, there simply isn't any! There are so many rip-off artists, both online and locally, that I figure somebody running a reputable, above-board buying operation can still operate with a very attractive profit margin while kicking the 'competition' in the butt.

Of all the online buyers advertising, I've found about 2% of them meet the criteria I'd be looking for as a minimum, before I'd ever send my scrap to one. This is an expose of the industry which I am in the process of writing (and filming), because even the TV "investigative reports" I've seen have been terribly misleading. 

Regardless, don't want to give the impression I'm fishing for business, so I'll make a copy of the report available (it'll be done in th ecoming week)to your members FREE, if that is agreeable to you.

Hope all is well with you and yours. May the precious metals gods keep smiling upon us all - Scott Andrews


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 24, 2009)

Recyclebiz_com said:


> jewelry manufacture exceeded all other industrial uses combined - by a factor of 10!


The very reason my refining venture was so successful. I catered to the jewelers in the very area you inhabit (along with many others). Did it for about 20 years. 

Harold


----------



## wop1969 (Mar 24, 2009)

What form and karat of gold are the jewlers most interested in? 
Wire, chunk, bars, nugets??


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 24, 2009)

wop1969 said:


> What form and karat of gold are the jewlers most interested in?
> Wire, chunk, bars, nugets??


I dispensed gold shot. Same stuff I've shown many times, in fact. That leaves the consumer with the ability to alloy to their requirements, limiting the amount of gold they must inventory. 

Harold


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 24, 2009)

I spoke with a local jeweler and he stated he buys karat casting grain, wire, and ribbon for ring sizing.

Steve


----------



## wop1969 (Mar 24, 2009)

I am assuming when you say shot, you are talking anout the corn flake looking pictures?
when you say shot i think pellets


----------



## Oz (Mar 24, 2009)

If you have seen Harold’s picture of a large white bowl of gleaming gold, that is what a jeweler expects to see when buying .9995 gold shot.


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 24, 2009)

lazersteve said:


> I spoke with a local jeweler and he stated he buys karat casting grain, wire, and ribbon for ring sizing.
> 
> Steve


I had the occasional request to alloy for a customer. I provided the service upon request. Those that wanted the gold alloyed were generally not well accomplished, and poorly tooled. 

It's always best to avoid melting gold alloy any more than is necessary. Each time the alloy is melted it oxidizes some of the base metal, which in turn can lead to porosity in the alloy when it is cast, so alloying isn't the best idea unless it can be done in an inert atmosphere. 

There is no right or wrong in this issue-----just personal preferences. 

A guy starting out that is offering refining services would be wise to be able to address all needs, but that may not be possible without getting heavily invested in equipment. Sure does make you competitive if you do, though!

Harold


----------



## solarsmith (Dec 25, 2009)

I got this info from an other board from som one that has don this. the info did not say if his sorce material was high grade or low grade or a mix.
any ways hear are the #s he reported...

230 kilos/507lbs

shiped to a refiner and was payed 90% for

plat 345grams/12.1oz
pal 161grams/5.4oz
rhod 46grams/1.5oz

at 12 24 09 prices with platinum at $1466 an oz the $ value of his 507lbs
is $23,321 an average of $45.99 a pound.. It cost him $1000 to ship it to the refiner. and I belive the refiner pay out was 90% 90% 90%


so his profit was about $20,000 on his 507 lbs
the average cat has 2.86 lbs of core material in them.
that means he procesed about 177 cats to get his 507lbs
I have no idea what he payed for the cats so his real profit could be any thing.. 2.86x45.99=$131.53 average return from the refiner per cat.
somthing tells me his 507 lbs came from all high grade cats.
I buy cats and only pay $4 or $5 for an after market.(the lowest of the low)

I will be getting an assay of after market cats done in a week and will post the ppm oz grams per ton hear when its done..

thanks BRYAN COLORADO CATS


----------



## solarsmith (Dec 28, 2009)

Hazen lab now has a 200 gram sample from 4 after market cats (mixed 50 grams from each) I should have the results in a few weeks. Bryan


----------



## solarsmith (Mar 4, 2010)

I did the math again last night and at todays prices the total is $25.610
for the 230 kilos.

thats $50.61 a lb

I wish I knew what the cats were from!

Thanks Bryan I BUY CATS (dead ones) :shock:


----------



## Buzz (Mar 5, 2010)

Hi Bryan,

Did you get the lab results on the aftermarkets yet?

Kind regards
Neil


----------



## andy1987 (Mar 7, 2010)

solarsmith said:


> Hice los cálculos de nuevo ayer por la noche y en los precios de hoy el total es de $ 25,610
> para los 230 kilos.
> 
> thats 50,61 dólares la libra
> ...




which is the company that you sell?


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 8, 2010)

looks interesting. :|


----------



## bubba (Sep 5, 2010)

Bryan, that aftermarket should run............
1000 ppm palladium
100 ppm platinum
80 ppm rhodium
am I close?


----------



## plasmasmelter (Sep 17, 2010)

I have arc smelted Autocat from both oems and aftermarkets from various automakers
and we are waiting on the results. The research I've done so far indicates that oem cats
are the highest pgm content at about 0.3% and the aftermarket may be down to 0.1%.
I will let you know what our results are when we get them.

PS


----------



## pgm (Nov 14, 2010)

plasmasmelter said:


> I have arc smelted Autocat from both oems and aftermarkets from various automakers
> and we are waiting on the results. The research I've done so far indicates that oem cats
> are the highest pgm content at about 0.3% and the aftermarket may be down to 0.1%.
> I will let you know what our results are when we get them.
> ...



Hi i would like to know more this too..will be watching this thread


----------



## solarsmith (Jan 22, 2011)

pgm said:


> plasmasmelter said:
> 
> 
> > I have arc smelted Autocat from both oems and aftermarkets from various automakers
> ...



Hi i would like to know more this too..will be watching this thread[/quote

I now use natural ventures out of salt lake as my buyer for my catalytic converters good prices and he picks them up from me.

Thanks Bryan I buy scrap cats catalytic converters I pay cash and im allways looking for better buyers (stay away from midsouth)
I just got a line on a buyer that pays a lot more than any one for foil cats
call me at 303 503 4799 thanks BRYAN


----------

