# copper mesh - sulphuric cell



## Long Shot (May 3, 2014)

Hello All,

Well, this is my first post. Edit other than introduction). I have been doing a lot of looking around the site and reading. I have two inquiries; 1) for the sulphuric cell - what size of copper mesh is recommended (I have a fair quantity of pins, some quite small) and in relation to this, does anybody know of a decent Canadian supplier of the same (there is lots available out of the States but given our sinking dollar and the border pirates I'm trying get my supplies out of CA). I picked up some sheet lead today at a flea market so if I can get the mesh, pretty much ready to roll on the cell. 2) Also looking for a Canadian supplier of fine silver sheet for electrowinning silver (same reasons from above). Any help on this :?:


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## IntelGold (May 4, 2014)

Hi Long Shot, Your mesh can be quite small as long as the basket you make doesn't have a lip on it. The gold gets taken off towards the lead cathode horizontally. if your basket is shielding the gold from the cathode it will effect the performance of the cell. Its called the Faraday Cage effect and will block the golds path. As for the rest I'll let one of the more experienced members help you. I live in the UK so I am probably not much help there. Enjoy!


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## Long Shot (May 4, 2014)

Thank you IntelGold - maybe I didn't pay close enough to the videos I have watched and will review. It looked like the copper basket was indeed folded along the top edge (I assumed for rigidity) as, although I have not put my hands on this stuff yet, I would think it is fairly flimsy. I have found a fellow in Quebec who sells 6*6" pieces of this stuff for around $20 and with shipping and the gouging from the government will amount to $30 by the time I get it. He has several grades available. I guess the other thing is, does it have to be copper as he offers stainless, brass and bronze as well in various grades. Can any of those materials be used for this? Some of what I have read indicates one can use stainless but it does degrade and one risks having the basket fail thus spilling out the pins and creating a mess to clean up. Another post I reviewed said that Lazersteve offers a 50 grade mesh on his site and that is one of the videos I looked at (Lazersteve's). Just from what I saw there this mesh size looks like it would easily pass many of the pins in my collection.

Maybe you can clarify the mode of dispersal, if I can call it that, with this method. You said "The gold gets taken off towards the lead cathode horizontally." From what I've seen, this is why they tilt the basket in the solution, to allow that horizontal travel? Does the dissolved gold tend to float on the surface out of the basket and not through it? And if I understand it correctly, the gold falls out of solution on the way to the cathode? If those three modes are what happens then I see what you say about the mesh size can be quite fine or small. Just wish I could find some of this stuff in the scrap yard because this is a hobby and I am not trying to make a lot of money with it, just having some fun. 8)


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## joubjonn (May 4, 2014)

when the gold deplates it floats in the sulfuric for a long time before settling. what I did is take an old copper toilet float and cut it up, then I drilled small holes all around it (1/16in) I fashioned it so it would hang and made a small lip so the pins don't fall out in the cell. besides the small lip all the parts have direct flow to the cathode. after the parts have deplated I lift the basket up (make sure all parts are submerged totally). I bob the basked up and down in the cell a few times, and then hold it up over the cell and let all the sulfuric drain back in the cell. then dip it in a water dish to get all the gold powder rinsed off the pins. then I dump the pins in another water dish. make sure you have a napkin to dry the copper before placing it back in the cell so you don't dilute the sulfuric. when done you can filter the water dishes in a fiberglass plug to get all the gold powder. this worked really well for me. make sure you where gloves and glasses. sulfuric is nasty.


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## Long Shot (May 4, 2014)

joubjonn - that sounds like an interesting alternative. Although it has been quite awhile, I did go to college with more than just basic chemistry courses so am quite aware of the dangers and nastiness of concentrated acids, but thanks for the warning. I'm sure there are a lot of people who join this forum who don't appreciate that and it is well worth warning the noobs of this, as is frequently the case that I've seen here. I am making a trip to the scrap yard next Saturday where they let you look around a fair bit and, of course, pay just a little over scrap price for anything you find interesting. Hopefully I can come up with some stuff to do this without going broke! Still looking for an answer in regards to being able (or not) to use different metal mesh for this process.


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## joubjonn (May 4, 2014)

Concentrated sulfuric will not attack metal like dilute sulfuric will. So you have other options like stainless steel. This has been talked about on the forum many times. We use copper because it easily bends and is easier to get. You can buy a sheet of it at a small hardware or hobby lobby. I would not use anything else. Some use a stainless bowl as the cathode even for larger parts or a big collection.


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## IntelGold (May 4, 2014)

"Concentrated sulfuric will not attack metal like dilute sulfuric will. So you have other options like stainless steel." 
Sulphuric acid Spelt correctly would eat away at the copper dependent on the heat and amps of the cell. There are to many variables involved to give a conclusive result.
Just a thought.


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## Long Shot (May 4, 2014)

Thanks guys - yes, sulphur, hence sulphuric. I have to say that this site is a little overwhelming and somewhat intimidating. I do appreciate that ya'll have elaborated on these things many, many times before. I do get it, just asking some questions to anybody who cares to respond and I'm glad that I have not had to bear the wrath of some of the folks here who are very hard core and intolerant of some ignorance. I do read and I do try to self educate, have done it my whole life and continue to do so both here and at work, and on many more subjects than just this. And that is part of the problem, working, it takes up a lot of time. I apologize that I remain a tad ignorant on all of this but I am working on it at least. Some day I will retire (I hope) and will have plenty of time to read for half the day, every day.

I can understand that the copper is the best way to go both from a durability standpoint and also, conductivity. I have read the posts about weak sulphuric attacking metals. The question was more about can metals other than copper be used? That is, brass, bronze, etc.. I have some SS mesh here but it is a little coarse for the application. Here in Canada it is not as simple as going into a small hardware store to get some of these things but I will try the hobby store downtown and see if they have or can get it. I did think about that one but they are only open during the week so will have to try to put the hammer down after work and get there. We do have a Michael's craft supply in this town and the girl looked at me like I had three heads and five legs when I asked her about this today. We are a huge country with a sparse population and thus the demand for odd things, such as copper mesh, does not warrant these folks carrying it. This goes for many things related to this art, i.e. acids, glassware and raw materials for that matter. If one lives in Toronto, there are shops, but our online services are very sadly lacking in depth and/or existence. 300,000,000 million in the USA vs 30,000,000 here. FYI - it is also a major expense, if not prohibitive, to get chemicals, even raw materials, such as electronic scrap across this border, without applying for a 2nd mortgage and knowing the Prime Minister's father.

I appreciate any and all advice you guys have to offer (short of being belittled by some of the members, which I have seen in more than one post, in several categories). I am just going to go ahead with what I can get my hands on and see how it all goes. I may find the time to set up a video camera to capture the procedure and my results and if that is not embarrassing, will make a post including said video that addresses some of these things so others like myself can view what someone else has done, good and/or bad. Believe me - I do understand the principal, the dangers of handling conc H2SO4, the power supply, the issue of heat and too many amps and the expected result. I am a small scale hobbiest so hopefully that would give others in my boat an idea of what is involved.

Will try to keep an active post on this.

Jeff



> _Ever wonder why we are told that there probably won't be adequate funding for a federal retirement fund that we have all paid for our whole working lives but there is never any talk about funding for welfare running short_ :?: :?:


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## FrugalRefiner (May 4, 2014)

I'd stay away from brass or bronze. They're copper alloyed with zinc (for brass) or tin (for bronze). I believe they'll be attacked by the acid and become contamination in your gold while weakening your basket. I've read that stainless _can_ work, but it's not the best choice either, for similar reasons. Have you checked lazersteve's site? I know he's in the US, but it still might turn out to be a good option. 

The Michael's in my area used to carry copper mesh, but they stopped sometime in the last year or so. I looked around on the internet, but most places wanted me to order more than I'd need in a lifetime. I found Steve to have the best fit for my needs.

Dave


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## joubjonn (May 4, 2014)

I think it is spelled sulfuric. And yes eventually and with high heat it will attack copper and other metals. For this purpose (deplating cell) stainless steel will work, copper will work, some other metals may work. Keep the heat down and you won't have issues. Many many posts on this exact question. I read them all before actually trying it myself.


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## joubjonn (May 4, 2014)

It can be spelled both ways. Maybe in canada it's Sulphuric, I spell it sulfuric.


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## Long Shot (May 5, 2014)

Thanks again for the input guys. S is one of those funny words that have two different spellings depending on what part of the planet you're standing on, both are correct but either may not be acceptable in certain company (my college chem professor for example, "it is sulphur, damn it!"). It is like color and colour, favor and favour, etc., American english or British english. Here in little ol' Canada we were owned by the Queen until 1967 so the British use is what we were taught.

I have visited Lazersteve's site and he does have a good selection of materials at reasonable prices. I may have to resort to that. I have friends in Rochester who come up here to race with us that would likely bring it with them if I had LS send it to them but that will be a month from now. Going to try a few other sources today now that things are open again and will be seeking copper mesh to do this (thanks FrugalRefiner for the details, it confirms what I was thinking).

Will try to do the video when it all comes together and will keep you posted on this one.

Jeff in Belleville, ON


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## joubjonn (May 5, 2014)

I'll try and get a picture of my basket and post it. It was real easy to make. Thin wall copper is easy to bend. I didn't want to use mesh as I figured the small pins would fall thru it, which makes a pain when cleaning the cell. And I want to limit the amount of time I have to stick a tool into the sulfuric because I dropped pins into it, increases the risk of splashing drops of it near my skin or clothing, I like handling sulfuric and nitric the leased for sure. As long as you can dip and drain after the deplate and with the use of a water dip dish to catch any leftovers you should be all set. Also HCl/Cl works great for cell powder, dissolves quickly and is much easier to use compared to AR. My biggest and quickest yield came from a cell

If you use a fiberglass plug you don't even have to wait for it to settle. Just strain all the fluid into the plug, pull the plug out after all the fluid drips out, drop the plug into a Pyrex add HCl and small amount of Clorox until all the black is gone. Filter that again thru another plug and your all set to drop with SMB after a little heat to gas out the Cl. Next time I'll use a smaller cell, like a 4 cup Pyrex with the pour lip. I like pour lips, I try to use Pyrex for all my refining. No spills. Of course I'm not refining large amounts so I don't need big glass.


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## IntelGold (May 5, 2014)

No offence about the spelling. There are quite a lot of words spelt differently between the UK and USA/Canada  .


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## joubjonn (May 5, 2014)

It's all good. Spelling can be important on this forum.


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## Long Shot (May 6, 2014)

IntelGold - Yes, a lot of different spelling of words, not to mention the difference between French from France and here in Quebec! It drives Fenchmen nuts :mrgreen: 

Joubjonn - Thanks for expanding. The fibreglass plug is something I haven't came across yet but will look into that proposal later today if I get the time. Your method sounds very doable for my little operation. Copper mesh here seems almost impossible to get in a small quantity at a decent price. The use of a perforated plate or cup of thin copper seems way more within reach. The scrap yard I favor has a local company that does a lot of specialised industrial refitting work and they drop the scrap there so really hoping I will stumble across something usable this weekend. Failing that, the hobby shop does have thin plate available.

I did look into Lazersteve's site and began to compile a shopping list but, as previously stated, once you start asking for shipment to Canada, WOW, that figure amounts to way more than the price of the goods! There is all kinds of innuendo floating around the net about how heavily we Canucks are taxed and I can tell you it is true. Free trade is nonsense (NAFTA).


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## lazersteve (May 6, 2014)

I apologize for the high cost of internationally shipping, but I have no control over these cost and tariffs.

Steve


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## joubjonn (May 6, 2014)

For the fiberglass plug all you need is a funnel and some fiberglass insulation from a hardware store. Take a small piece and push it thru a funnel so about a 1/4-1/3in is sticking out thru the bottom and the hole is plugged. Filter the sulfuric thru this when your done deplating. It will catch all the black gold powder. Then once you cleaned out the concentrated sulfuric, store it in a decent plastic bottle, I used a cleaned out 1 gallon jug. Now take your rinse dish you used to dip the pin basket in. That should have some more black gold powder, filter that thru the same fiber glass filter. That way you get all the powder in the same filter and you get to rinse out some of the sulfuric thru the filter that you will then remove from the funnel and place it in Pyrex glass cup. Fill it with HCl just enough to cover the filter (wash any gold powder left in the funnel into the same Pyrex). Then add small amounts of bleach until the fiberglass returns to the same color (lighter white color or pink whatever color it was before filtering). Wait for the Cl to gas off. You can use a little heat to make that go faster. Then drop with SMB.


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## Long Shot (May 6, 2014)

Steve - I know, it is not your fault or problem. I appreciate your comment on this. I would like to do business with you but.........cost is prohibitive. I have read a lot of what you have posted and you are the man. It does amaze me that you are so forthright and care enough to do so to help us less experienced folk with your expertise. There are some people that one meets or are exposed to in our short life that is a rare occasion. I would like to have the very fortunate opportunity to meet you in person.

Joubjonn - thank you very much for that description, I do believe I get what you are talking about. I just sat down to the computer after a long and somewhat stressful day. I will look into this some more. BTW - did you or can you post or PM me with the design of the copper toilet float basket? I am a little unclear about the design. Also, BTW - I just love Texas, have been there 3 times, saw Jerry Jeff Walker at the Winnie fair and as far as I'm concerned, things should be the way they are in TX everywhere. You may know what I mean.

Thank you my friends,

Jeff B in little ol' Belleville, ON


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## joubjonn (May 7, 2014)

Yes Texas is one of the best places you can be right now as far as job growth goes. I moved down from Michigan 5 years ago and i would never go back. I know exactly what you mean. Shoot my home value has gone up 30% in the last 3 years.


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## Long Shot (May 10, 2014)

Joubjonn - Thanks for the photo bud. It is pretty much as you described but I thought the holes would be a lot smaller and in my case they will need to be. I acquired a large lot of P2 thru P4 processors as the majority source of my current pin collection and a lot of these are really small and would easily fall through the holes in your device. BTW - I struck out today at the scrapyard trying to find anything copper that might suffice. They did have lots of large, pretty chunks though...I've always loved the look of new, large gauge copper! I visited two more yards on the way home and no dice there either. I may have to bite the bullet and just order it from Montreal.

Jeff :|


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## joubjonn (May 12, 2014)

This is just my opinion but I would process magnetic CPU pins in AR. The reason is the solder is going to shield your pins and you will leave gold on those pins. I guess you could soak them in HCl and remove the tin. I have about 100 pentium green fiber cpu's right now. Still have to heat the pins off. Once I do I'll give them an HCl bath to remove the tin then move on to AR after rinsed/incinerated.


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## g_axelsson (May 12, 2014)

The gold is dissolved in the solder, when the solder is dissolved by acid it will release the gold as a very fine powder or even colloidal.

Göran


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## eaglewings35 (May 24, 2014)

Long Shot said:


> Steve - I know, it is not your fault or problem. I appreciate your comment on this. I would like to do business with you but.........cost is prohibitive. I have read a lot of what you have posted and you are the man. It does amaze me that you are so forthright and care enough to do so to help us less experienced folk with your expertise. There are some people that one meets or are exposed to in our short life that is a rare occasion. I would like to have the very fortunate opportunity to meet you in person.
> 
> Joubjonn - thank you very much for that description, I do believe I get what you are talking about. I just sat down to the computer after a long and somewhat stressful day. I will look into this some more. BTW - did you or can you post or PM me with the design of the copper toilet float basket? I am a little unclear about the design. Also, BTW - I just love Texas, have been there 3 times, saw Jerry Jeff Walker at the Winnie fair and as far as I'm concerned, things should be the way they are in TX everywhere. You may know what I mean.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the forum Jeff.
We Texans appreciate the kind comment. No, we don't know any strangers down here, and yes it is as they say
"everything is bigger in Texas" our imaginations especially !!!

Kery


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## joubjonn (May 24, 2014)

I really is one of the best states to live in. Growth is incredible.


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