# SSn with iodine



## rhodiumfever (Apr 19, 2010)

I have leached an ore with SSN plus some iodine. 7:1 Nitric with a couple of balls of iodine per 10ml.
On neutralizing the solution with NaOH, I find that I get a pH of 1.5 fleetingly and then it reverts back to strongly acidic. I am using pH paper to monitor the pH.
Is this due to the iodine? Would it be correct to call the iodine a buffer?
I dropped the metals with Zinc powder and got very poor results. However the pH of the residue solution was about 2. Used what seemed to be a lot of zinc powder.
I have another batch that is ready. Should I neutralize with NaOH despite it seeming to take for ever?
Would appreciate any input on the above. Thanks.


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## Lino1406 (Apr 20, 2010)

Iodine with nitric, does nothing (nitric is a stronger oxidizer)
Zinc, beside dropping, makes solution alkaline, but you can
save Zn by raising PH to 2-3 with NaOH


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Lino. 
With the 2nd batch, I raised the pH to 1.5 - 2.0 which is what the SSN paper by the American Society for Applied Technology suggest.
I then dropped with zinc and this time got black/brown sludge which is taking ages to filter.
I'm primarily looking for Rhodium so I intend to to dissolve in hot AR and if there is anything left then it should be Rh!?
Have you ever used SSN (saturated saline and nitric acid)? I haven't heard anything negative about it but there doesn't seem to be a lot of information available. Some sites suggest adding iodine if you want the leach to be extra aggressive. I'm not sure how that would help, but thought it may act as a buffer to keep the pH very acidic. I would like to understand what advantages it lends to the leach.
SSN is sometimes referred to as SWAN (salt water and nitric).
Will see if I can start the AR stage now!


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 20, 2010)

The brown sludge very quickly went into the AR apart from a few larger clumps. So I boiled it and the clumps also went into solution. So now there's nothing left!! Expletive, expletive, expletive.
I noticed that while I was boiling it the yellow color gave way to a orangy/red. Rhodium in solution again? 
I read somewhere that oxidized rhodium will dissolve in AR. Seeing that this has just come from a strongly oxidizing SSN, could that be the case?


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## Oz (Apr 20, 2010)

Why do you think you have rhodium other than the fact you have a fever. 

If you had elemental rhodium boiling in AR it would still be there (as in 98% of it as a solid). This only shows that it is highly unlikely that there was any Rh to begin with.

What is up with all these people thinking they have high values of Rh lately, its not like it is back at $10,0000 an ounce or something.


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## Platdigger (Apr 20, 2010)

edit


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## Irons (Apr 20, 2010)

Oz said:


> Why do you think you have rhodium other than the fact you have a fever.
> 
> If you had elemental rhodium boiling in AR it would still be there (as in 98% of it as a solid). This only shows that it is highly unlikely that there was any Rh to begin with.
> 
> What is up with all these people thinking they have high values of Rh lately, its not like it is back at $10,0000 an ounce or something.



http://www.kitco.com/pr/1037/article_04192010111627.pdf

Presenting a new-generation investment metal — Kitco Rhodium Sponge
Montreal, April 19, 2010 — In keeping with its tradition of innovation, Kitco Metals Inc. introduces a newgeneration
investment product — Kitco Rhodium Sponge.
As an industry first, Kitco is making pure rhodium powder (sponge) available to the individual customer in
convenient tamper-proof plastic bottles of one, five and 10 ounces. Now, investors can physically acquire and
trade rhodium, the rarest precious metal.
Given the increasing demand for and the limited supplies of rhodium, it is not surprising that the metal has caught
the interest of Bart Kitner, President of Kitco Metals Inc. “Everyone knows about gold and platinum. Even
palladium has gained favor among precious metals investors in recent times. But rhodium is only now coming into
its own as an investment product,” says Kitner.
Because of its hardness and wear-resistance, the metal is used in many specialized industrial applications. Its most
widespread use is in the catalytic converters of modern-day automobiles, a demand sector pegged for growth in
the world’s emerging economies.
Driven chiefly by supply-side constraints, the rhodium price reached a historic high of US$10,000 an ounce in
2008. The metal is currently priced at the lower end of its historic range and is gaining popularity as an investment
product.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 20, 2010)

Irons said:


> Oz said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think you have rhodium other than the fact you have a fever.
> ...



Are we on the verge of another comoditiy they are selling but not able to deliver?


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 20, 2010)

At last a question.
A couple of years ago I bought a sample from the same area. This was after extraction by cyanide and mercury and probably further refined with acid. Had it tested at a reliable laboratory and it was by spectroscopy analysis 20% Rh. Bought from the same guy again and it was iron!
Now skip 2 years, I've been to the place where geological information tells us it should be. Local information backs this up.
Samples I've had, keep on seeing signs of Rh, its a tricky bugger but its there. I want to know how to release it to a product that isn't heavy and bulky and is marketable.
Before leaching the ore, I roasted it but don't know of a easy way to make a reducing atmosphere for it to cool down in. Maybe this oxidized the Rh?


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 20, 2010)

I tested the solution with stannous, drop of solution on filter paper followed by a drop of stannous. Got orange center with a halo of canary yellow. These tests are not very revealing to me as its the first time I've done them so have no reference point.


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## lazersteve (Apr 20, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> ...
> I'm primarily looking for Rhodium so I intend to to dissolve in hot AR and if there is anything left then it should be Rh!?...



Not necessarily true. There are several metals and non-metals that are not soluble in AR.

In fact, if you added powdered fine mesh zinc, you may have introduced Cab-O-Sil (SiO2) into the mix unknowingly. Cab-O-Sil is added to powdered zinc when shipping to stabilize it's flamability. I realize you likely did not use fine mesh zinc as all of your sludge dissolved.

My main point is that you shouldn't jump to conclusions about what the products ( and by products) of your reactions are unless you are 100% sure of what you are putting into the reaction. 

Rhodium is very rare and is difficult to find and process. It is truly a separate animal than Pt and Pd as far as rarity and chemical processes are concerned.

I have posted a few simple tests for Rh. You can find them, complete with color photos of the results, in the Reactions List. You can find the Reactions List by taking the Guided Tour Link in my signature line below.

Welcome to the forum,

Steve


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks lazersteve, will look up those tests now. I've probably read them before, but this whole subject is a bit more complex than it first looks like. It was in one of your posts that you said oxidized Rh could be dissolved. Would I have oxidized the Rh given I roasted the ore and then leached with SSN.
There's Rhodium in them hills. Where's the faith people?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 20, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> There's Rhodium in them hills. Where's the faith people?



Seeing is belivieing. 8)


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 20, 2010)

I have decided to leach a new batch with SSN without the iodine. Still not sure why the iodine would make the leach more aggressive. Sure it adds another halide floating around but what is better for attacking gold, palladium, rhodium - is it the Chlorine or the Iodine. The one sure advantage I will gain without iodine is that I wont have a yellow/brown colored leach.


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## Platdigger (Apr 21, 2010)

Not true Barren, it is the other way around.... 8)


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 21, 2010)

Hi Lazersteve
With regards to your stannous chloride, Rh test. Is it literally 1 drop + 3 + 1. You must be using small test-tubes. Also can you explain why one needs water.


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## Harold_V (Apr 21, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> This was after extraction by cyanide and mercury and probably further refined with acid.


What, rhodium? With cyanide? Why am I doubting the claim?

Harold


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 21, 2010)

Really Harold there are still a lot of countries where Cyanide and mercury are the norms. Is there something I don't know, like Rhodium with cyanide will explode or something? Maybe I can sell you exclusive mining rights. No? OK then maybe you can humor me with the chemistry?

I have done Stannous Rh test 3 times with different results
1 Didn't remove the nitric which "Irons" says you should do. So we will discard that test.
2 Didn't remove gold,Pl or Pd. Solution was yellow to begin with but got brighter yellow with stannous. With heating it became orang/red and on cooling it became tea color with green/blue hint.
3 This time I added FeSo4 to remove the gold. Couldn't see any precipitate. Then added saturated Ammonium Chloride to remove the Pt, again couldn't see a precipitate. Then added DMG dissolved in alcohol and water, no precipitate.
Left this for 10 minutes to let any precipitates sink to the bottom. Took some solution from the top and did the test again. I think the yellow solution actually went paler with the stannous. When heated it lost all color completely and it didn't come back when cooled.

Whats happening. Maybe I've proven there is no Rh. I'm working on very low concentration ores at the moment because I have blown my most concentrated sample performing tests to get to know whats happening. I have about 5g of super concentrated cons left but don't want to touch them till I know what I'm doing. Also would like to save 2g or so to get a spectroscopic breakdown/assay when I get the chance. If there is Rh in this area it will be in this remaining 5g.

So if I could trouble you good people to look at my results and give suggestions, I would appreciate it.


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## Platdigger (Apr 21, 2010)

Are you doing these stanis tests on paper? Or in a depresion type plate?
Forgot what you call that last one. I have one made of white plastic.
Harold had one (or has) one made of porcilin I believe.

If you are trying to do these tests in a test tube.....that could be a problem.
At least making it more difficult to get good results.
That is....I supose... unless you are using equal amounts of stanis to solution.


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## Lino1406 (Apr 21, 2010)

If color disappears, or becomes paler -
no PM.


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm doing the tests in a test tube, don't have a testing plate and yes I'm using as much stannous as solution. It appeares that I don't have Rh here but will try again today as yesterday the ore hadn't been leached for very long,
Thank Lino and Platdigger.
There's still Rhodium somewhere in them hills.
Anyone come up with a reason why adding Iodine to SSN is a good idea?


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## Platinum (Apr 21, 2010)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16798901/SSN-Leach


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## lazersteve (Apr 21, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> I'm doing the tests in a test tube, don't have a testing plate and yes I'm using as much stannous as solution. It appears that I don't have Rh here but will try again...



I performed all of my tests in a test tube also. 

My small test tube is 5 mL , my larger ones are 25mL. I used drops from an eyedropper to perform the test. The important thing is that the solution must be acidic, hence the indication to use three drops of HCl to one drop of the solution being tested and one drop of stannous. The test is pretty sensitive so very little is needed. If the solution being tested is very diluted you may add another drop of it.

If you have solid Rh powder you can get some to go into solution using a boil in hot concentrated (98%) sulfuric acid. I have also posted photos of positive results for this test in the reactions list post.

If you are struggling to see the color changes while heating and after the solution cools, you don't have Rh. The color change is pretty pronounced even in the presence of Pt.

I would have to agree that you have not put any Rh into solution.

Steve


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks Platinum for the input, unfortunately that document is the one by the American Soc. for Applied Tech. and it seems to be the only thing out there that directly addresses SSN. I did find a US patent 5156721 which seems to be barking up the same tree but includes using an electrolysis cell - if that's the correct way to describe it (cathodes and anodes). I got a chemistry A level at school but I wouldn't give myself one now!
And Lazersteve, a rock as always, in the test I found, http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=16869&#16869 you don't mention adding HCl but you do add water. I've made my stannous according to your directions 2g Sn : 30HCl so I guess I don't need the extra HCl? Also since my leach is 7 parts water to 1 part HNO3 then I guess I could leave out the step adding 3 drops of water as per your directions.
Yesterday material is still being leached so will have a more concentrated solution to work with this time.
Oh yes I would still like to Know if I would have oxidized the Rh (had it been there) when I roasted the ores.


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## lazersteve (Apr 21, 2010)

Here's the sulfuric acid test results:

Testing for Rhodium with 98% Sulfuric Acid


Steve


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 21, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> Thanks for the reply Lino.
> With the 2nd batch, I raised the pH to 1.5 - 2.0 which is what the SSN paper by the American Society for Applied Technology suggest.
> I then dropped with zinc and this time got black/brown sludge which is taking ages to filter.
> I'm primarily looking for Rhodium so I intend to to dissolve in hot AR and if there is anything left then it should be Rh!?
> ...



The final step of the above procedure was to filter off the Rhodium but there just seemed to be a few bits of dust in the bottom of the filter. The original ore was about 1oz of my super concentrates ( depleted to 5g) and it had leached for 4 days. 

Anyway I hadn't thrown the filter paper away so I took the grey dust section of the filter paper and put it in a test-tube. Added concentrated Sulfuric and immediatly got and opaque black residue. No change visible on boiling. Couldn't see any red so pored a bit onto a filter paper and could see bit of brown mingled with black.

Maybe to much Rhodium I longingly hoped so I went to my 5g parcel and put about 0.3g into a test tube. Added conc. H2SO4, no change. Boiled for about 2 minutes and a grey color has appeared and made the solution less translucent. Cannot find any discernable red color in this.

The original ore has a whole mix in it but the filter paper residue was after dropping with zinc and then boiling in AR. What do you think Steve?


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## lazersteve (Apr 22, 2010)

From you descriptions of the colors I'd say no Rh is present or it's locked up in silicate or an alloy if it is there.

My gut feeling is that it's just not there.

It took some time for me to get familiar with the Rh tests. The eureka moment came when I performed the tests using known Rh samples that I got from Lou. Once I saw a real positive test with my own eyes, it was easier to recognize when I saw it again.

Hoke teaches this familiarization process very well in her book that Harold pushes so much. Working with known samples instead of unknown samples to learn takes a lot of the hope an guess work out of your tests. Once you can properly identify a known sample using these test then you can graduate to the unknown samples.

Steve


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 22, 2010)

I was hoping you weren't going to say that but it has been dawning on me that without having observed a positive reaction its going to be impossible to draw any complete conclusions from my basement chemistry. I'm getting flashback to school when even with good chemicals and clean equipment one didn't always get the desired result from a test. I shall have to wait until I next visit my safety deposit box and get my 20% rhodium sample, that in itself will not be so easy because I also have stored there the other 2 or 3 samples that I bought which contain no pms. However one out of the four samples should react sufficiently differently to determine it the odd man out and therefore Rh. I wished I had been more diligent about labels.
I ave since tested the .3g sample of super concentrated ore and although no visible reaction on heating, when cooled I can definatly see an orange/brown hue. The tests with the filter paper were so strong I thought I had found something but if you say this is an indication of no Rh I shall accept the mans word.
Just lastly if you had half a gram of superfine Rhodium and poured 2cc of concentrated H2SO4 on it, what would you expect to happen. Also can you give me an equation for what is happening in this reaction and is the final product soluble in water or is there a further test I can do on the final product (black suspension after H2SO4).
Thanks for everyone's help and I hope to be able to report something new and enlightening in the near future


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## lazersteve (Apr 22, 2010)

The final product is Rhodium sulfate and is in the acid.

Sam just asked a similar question here:

Rhodium Sulfate Solution

Remember the sulfuric acid will not completely dissolve all of the Rh so several treatments are required.

The sulfuric acid needs to be boiled to put the Rh in solution. You see the color of the solution change when the Rh begins to go in. The solution will darken like when you make tea.

Steve


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## WIZZARD (Apr 23, 2010)

Hope I don't make a posterior of my self, but hears a thought. 

Flux and fuse the ore with low melting collecting metal (maybe Ag) . Part the alloy with Mobius cell, collecting metal goes to the CAT and the anode bag fills with NM and base metal mud. No over voltage as NM will also go to the CAT. This takes forever! Roast the mud to ensure zero valance, use AR for Au, Pt, Pd, residue is Ag, Rh, Ir, Ru. Parting this stuff in steps solves a lot cross NM contamination. Leave the Ag alone until you get your Rh. Fuse residue with sodium bisulfite to make Rh soluble in H2O, filter, drop with sodium hydroxide to black powder still salts of Rh and Na. An old guy told me when I was a young guy, that PGM's can be locked in the host rock as salts, thus soluble in simple acids? If you make Rh salts they need to be stabilized and brought to zero valance, by slow ignition, then they are not soluble any more? Pre roasting some ore can drive off the soluble PGM salts. Not theory been there done that! Iodine used on the whole thing will collect all the iodine soluble metals and minerals, now you got to figure out to selectively part the solutions? Don't tell me someone has that on a thread, send it to me, I have a lot to learn. 


WIZZARD


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## Lou (Apr 25, 2010)

Where there's rhodium, there will almost certainly be its sister metals (at least in natural sources). 

Harold meant that rhodium and cyanide don't get along--under normal conditions, it won't complex rhodium metal (nor platinum).

Sounds like you're on an epic tail chase!


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## rhodiumfever (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks Lou for clearing that up, you can see that it was fairly cryptic to my newbee brain. The point is that the original miners were not even considering getting the PGM values, they were only after gold. I was sold the concentrated tailings as "white gold" but they didn't know how to recover it. Now cyanide is not used so the method is almost entirely amalgamation which again wont touch PGMs so somewhere there's a huge pile of Rhodium tailings to be had! I'm just about out of samples now so will have to wait until I restock to continue my quest.


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## Wyndham (Apr 30, 2010)

Now this idea may be in totally the wrong direction and please slap it down if it needs it. I seem to remember that some costume jewelry is first plated with Rhodium then gold plated. I don't know if this is still the case or if it ever was.
If it was/is then if one could find this stuff, deplate the gold, wouldn't that be a reasonable way to get a test material for Rhodium??
I also think there is some ceramic lusters(liquid) some are gold some are platinum and one might be Rhodium.
Just a thought to get a pure test material or maybe not. Wyndham


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## Harold_V (Apr 30, 2010)

It would be unusual for gold plated jewelry to be first plated with rhodium. The purpose for the base plating is to prevent migration of gold to the base metal. Nickel has been, and is, the metal of choice for that purpose. 

Harold


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## depperl001 (May 3, 2010)

Wyndham said:


> Now this idea may be in totally the wrong direction and please slap it down if it needs it. I seem to remember that some costume jewelry is first plated with Rhodium then gold plated. I don't know if this is still the case or if it ever was.
> If it was/is then if one could find this stuff, deplate the gold, wouldn't that be a reasonable way to get a test material for Rhodium??
> I also think there is some ceramic lusters(liquid) some are gold some are platinum and one might be Rhodium.
> Just a thought to get a pure test material or maybe not. Wyndham


 Hi,

Anno about 1979 some silver jewellry was plated with Rhodium so that it would not discolour.If you could find some it would give you a strong idea.
Regards,
depperl001


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## goldsilverpro (May 3, 2010)

I see no reason why gold plating would ever be put on top of rhodium plating.


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## Harold_V (May 4, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> I see no reason why gold plating would ever be put on top of rhodium plating.


I'm afraid I'd have to agree. The barrier that is required to keep gold from migrating has been, for years, nickel. I can't begin to imagine why they'd use a metal that cost hundreds of dollars per ounce when one that costs just a few bucks per pound serves the purpose perfectly well. 
Not too long ago, rhodium wasn't very expensive. Even then, it wouldn't have made sense to use it in place of nickel. Not unless there was a specific reason. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (May 4, 2010)

Like Harold intimated, *THERE HAS TO BE A REASON* for everything, when it comes to the usage of precious metals. They are, and always have been, too expensive just to use them where ever you want to based on a whim. This is an extremely important concept. When this finally soaks in, you will be able to analyze the materials you are dealing with in a more intelligent manner. I guarantee you that no manufacturer has ever wasted these metals, except maybe through ignorance. They always only use what is absolutely necessary - no more, no less. This has been true for 1000s of years.


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## Harold_V (May 4, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> Like Harold intimated, *THERE HAS TO BE A REASON* for everything, when it comes to the usage of precious metals. They are, and always have been, too expensive just to use them where ever you want to based on a whim. This is an extremely important concept. When this finally soaks in, you will be able to analyze the materials you are dealing with in a more intelligent manner. I guarantee you that no manufacturer has ever wasted these metals, except maybe through ignorance. They always only use what is absolutely necessary - no more, no less. This has been true for 1000s of years.


The point of all of this is when you finally come to terms with the idea that there's not a huge amount of any of these metals used, you are on your way to realistic expectations. 

How many, here, have clipped pins, thinking they are gold through and through, due to being made of yellow brass? It's a common mistake, often leading to poor investments. 

It really pays to look at everything with skepticism. It's hard to screw a cynic. 

Harold


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## rhodiumfever (May 12, 2010)

Just received some samples from another area which is not widely known for PGMs however I would still like to check for them.
3 samples are from within a 20 miles radius. They are tailing samples. All 3 of the samples have gone through amalgamation with Hg. And one of the samples has been leached with cyanide. (I know I said its illegal but appears to be going on in some areas)
I roasted the 2 mercury only samples over charcoal for about one hour and then dropped into cold water. I think this prevents any rhodium present from oxidizing which would then be very difficult to leach.
I was a bit leary about roasting the cyanidation tailings so omitted that step.
Now I have 3 samples of 100g each in a solution of 7:1 saturated saline and nitric acid. No iodine to complicate things more than necessary. 
Several questions, would cyanide have done anything to any PGMs which happened to be present? Lou and Harold mentioned that it doesn't affect Pt or Rh.
Is 100g such a small quantity that I can't expect to see any results?
Does anyone know how to measure the ORP of the leach because a meter will quickly get corroded and cease working? It should be kept between 400- 900 mv for some reason
Does anyone apart from The American Society for Applied Technology have any experience with leaching PGMs with SSN.
I may well be on a tail chase but like a puppy I'm still not convinced I can't catch it. This forum, by the way, is quite amazing and although my brain hurts I think if I keep reading some of the stuff will eventually sink in.


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## Harold_V (May 12, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> I may well be on a tail chase but like a puppy I'm still not convinced I can't catch it.


Everyone is entitled to their dream, but in my estimation, you are wasting not only your time, but your life. You would be so much better served to set realistic goals. 

I'm not trying to be rude, but do you happen to know anyone---ANYONE---that has accumulated more than a meager trace of rhodium? In my many years of refining, I didn't manage to accumulate so much as a dwt. 

See what I mean? 

Set realistic goals, then pursue them with a vengeance. You'd be amazed at the amount of gold and silver you can accumulate by doing so. 

People that have gone before you aren't morons. If there was value to be had, they would have pursued the material to that end. If they couldn't make a profit on the material at your disposal, running volume, why do you assume you can do so running traces?

(Ok, I'll shut my big mouth now!)

Harold


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## Oz (May 12, 2010)

Very true words Harold. I have processed silver as well as palladium jewelry that had a rhodium plating for brilliance, but that was not ore. I saved the Rh each and every time but I doubt it made more than $20 in my bottom line all totaled. 

I am not suggesting you ignore it but that you should concentrate on the values that pay the bills, chasing ones tail seldom does.


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## rhodiumfever (May 12, 2010)

Gentlemen thank you both for your responses, unfortunately neither of you addressed my queries. From Harold in particular I always get a stimulating read and please Harold, be assured that I certainly don't think that you would ever have to try to be rude.
Have you any experience with SSN leach or is it off your map so to speak Harold, as you mentioned in another thread that you only ever intended sticking with the basic and easy to recover metals?
I do still have about 30g off concentrated tailings that assayed at more than 20% Rh. Who was the fool who let that go?
Need to go out now. Look forward to your response.


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## Harold_V (May 13, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> Have you any experience with SSN leach or is it off your map so to speak Harold, as you mentioned in another thread that you only ever intended sticking with the basic and easy to recover metals?


As you alluded, my experience with recovering from ores is very limited. In a sense, where my refining experiences were concerned, I had a loose plan, which I pursued. It allowed my refining experiences to be guided by practical need and application. I openly admit I was not adventuresome, as I had other obligations that prevented me from what would have been wasting my time. If I took time from my obligations, it had to be productive, otherwise I'd have been the fool most thought I was, anyway, in spite of my considerable success. 

I used cyanide and bromine for the few exceptions, which was a requirement. Did I enjoy success? Considering the meager amount of ore I processed (one lot was only four 5 gallon buckets), and the resulting assay indicating that the residual content was worth only a few dollars, I'd say, yes, I did. The extraction rate was 99.55% of the head assay, so I felt comfortable that I had succeeded. 

I also used cyanide for removing silver and gold from once processed polishing wastes, which was also productive, although in the end, the entire lot was further processed by smelting to extract traces that were not recovered in the leaching process. That, of course, included platinum group metals. 



> I do still have about 30g off concentrated tailings that assayed at more than 20% Rh. Who was the fool who let that go?


I see your point, but the very fact that you are speaking of numbers that tend to defy logic, I question the assay. Can you describe the means by which you have drawn that conclusion? 

Here's my position in matters such as this. Gold, which tends to be rather elusive to the prospector, is known to be in more abundance than platinum by a ratio of ten to one. Based on that, it would be unusual for anyone to discover a deposit of platinum group metals that yielded values that might be viable for a commercial venture. 

Armed with that thought, and the consideration that Rh is far less common than platinum, can you understand that I might have reservations as to the viability of your claim? 
Again, I'm not attempting to be rude, but the numbers, for me, don't add up. It might help to know the source (country of origin) of the concentrates, and how and why the material was concentrated. It makes little sense, at least to me, to think that others that had invested time and money in the operation would not be aware of the presence of such high values. 

Do be aware, I am a skeptic, which has served me well in life. I am, however, open to evidence contrary to my logic. 

You have my undivided attention in this matter. 

Harold


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## rhodiumfever (May 13, 2010)

Maybe I've not been clear. They are tailings of gold mining. I am in S E Asia and even if the miners are aware of other values, not all the artisan miners are able to extract PGMs. Iv'e got internet, phone and education and cant do it yet! However some know that there are other values and can sell the tailings better when some of the base netals such as iron have been removed with acid.
The assay I had done was at a respected institution and the average of 5 spectoscope probes came back at over 20% Rh, some osmium, some Ruthenium. I dont know what type of scope they used but the told me it wasn't an accurate quantative result. At $2000 an oz for Rh I was able to buy the tailings at a fraction of the value. I think its worth looking into but I surely need to learn more about how to refine the Rh. They presumably thought they were selling me platinum. Maybe they had already removed the platinum when they leached with cyanide. They probably thought they had sold to another sucker!
It seems SSN is possibly the most suitable method for leaching PGMs but its hard to get more than a smattering of information on it. This is a link that "platinum" posted to the process 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16798901/SSN-Leach
By the way the title of this post SSn is a typo and should really be all capitals SSN
Does anyone know how to measure the ORP without using the usual ORP meters that will apparently rust away fairly quickly. And what is ORP and how does it differ from pH?!
I just read the never ending post on platinumill. Some of you guys were trying SSN, how did it work out.


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## Harold_V (May 13, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> but I surely need to learn more about how to refine the Rh.


That may be true, but one can not refine that which he does not possess. 

Your problem, right now, isn't one of refining. It's one of extraction, and they are not one and the same. The first thing that must be accomplished is to ascertain that the material really does contain Rh. I have my doubts, although that you are not in the US does lend some credence to your claim. 

Harold


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## rhodiumfever (May 13, 2010)

The first thing that must be accomplished is to ascertain that the material really does contain Rh. 

I agree and to do that I must be able to put the Rh in solution. Steve and Lou's boiling sulfuric acid will do the trick but I still want some way to isolate the Rh so I can read the results better. Also I don't really want to be wandering around the bush with a bottle of conc. H2SO4 in my pocket.
At the end of the day if I can get hold of the tailings I would need to refine/extract the Rh to a saleable condition. Wouldn't be much point buying a tailings pile if JM and other refiners tell me they don't want it.
So any help on SSN is sought because if things work out this seems the most suitable method for extracting PGMs from ore.


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## Harold_V (May 14, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> The first thing that must be accomplished is to ascertain that the material really does contain Rh.
> 
> I agree and to do that I must be able to put the Rh in solution.


Wrong!

What you really should do is have a proper assay performed by a credible source. I feel perfectly comfortable in my telling you that unless you have extended experience in working with the platinum group metals, you are most likely to be duped by your results. You can stumble along blindly, secure in the idea that you have Rh, but it is difficult to extract, when, in fact, you don't have any. You simply must get a grip on reality and stop making assumptions based on your hopes and dreams. You are most likely being promoted by someone that is telling you everything he/she/it thinks you want to hear. This situation appears to have a great deal in common with the African gold promoters, who rarely have anything to offer, yet they manage to skin the victims. That's generally the result of wanting to hear that which isn't true. 

Harold


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## lazersteve (May 14, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> I agree and to do that I must be able to put the Rh in solution. Steve and Lou's boiling sulfuric acid will do the trick but I still want some way to isolate the Rh so I can read the results better. Also I don't really want to be wandering around the bush with a bottle of conc. H2SO4 in my pocket.



There are other field test for Rh, but until you know what a given positive test for Rh looks like with the method of testing you choose, and the possible false positives associated with your test, as well as interferences from other precious and base metals, you will always be living in the dream world that Harold is warning you about. First and foremost, get a known laboratory grade sample of Rh, provided by a reputable third party. This will be your 'standard' that you will measure all test results against. Familiarize yourself with the known standard reactions to any and all of the tests you choose to use, and become comfortable with observing the results. 



rhodiumfever said:


> At the end of the day if I can get hold of the tailings I would need to refine/extract the Rh to a saleable condition. Wouldn't be much point buying a tailings pile if JM and other refiners tell me they don't want it.



As Harold stated, get a lab analysis of your ore sample to confirm you are not chasing your tail. Field test are just that. You'll need independent confirmation of the results before pursuing the 'tailing pile' for values. It's very important to properly sample the pile so as not to skew the assay results. Be sure to collect material of various sizes and appearances for analysis. If you pick up one shiny nugget and send it off and it comes back 30% Rh hypothetically, that doesn't mean the entire pile is 30% Rh.




rhodiumfever said:


> So any help on SSN is sought because if things work out this seems the most suitable method for extracting PGMs from ore.



I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but why not keep an open mind as to which extraction process to use until you find one which works the best for the ore? It seems illogical to me to pick an extraction scheme, before you ever know what type of ore you are dealing with. Once you have a lab analysis of the material, then choose an appropriate extraction scheme armed with this knowledge. 

Here's a simple field test for Rh:


Evenly mix crushed ore sample with equal volume of crushed rock salt (sodium chloride).
Roast at cherry red heat for 1 hour (~850C).
Digest in distilled water.
Cool to room temperature.
Filter out solids, rinsing filter with distilled water.
Add 1.5g of ammonium nitrate dissolved in 1 mL of distilled water @20C for each mL of solution to be tested.
Rhodium is indicated by a orange-yellow precipitate.
Dissolve the orange-yellow precipitate in HCl.
Confirm the presence of Rh using the hot stannous chloride test for Rh.

Steve


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## WIZZARD (May 14, 2010)

The opportunity to solve a problem is close at hand with Steve's post for rhodiumfever and others reading the post.



> Steve wrote:
> 
> 1. Evenly mix crushed ore sample with equal volume of crushed rock salt (sodium chloride).
> 2. Roast at cherry red heat for 1 hour (~850C).
> ...



Rhodium ore can exist as complex compounds in nature and can be soluble, not like secondary refined metal or native metal grains. When roasted with salt the minerals of the Noble Metals are now also made more soluble, where there is one NM there are likely to be others, are other metals now likely to be in solution too. Is there a sequence needed to take one or the other first? As the need to remove Au first then PGM's or the other way around, depends on the ratio of metals in solution? The Pd coming down with Au comes to mind if out of sequence? What if there is rare earth in the ore?

Example of soluble alloy; silver and platinum as an alloy, nitric acid/distilled water will place some of the platinum in solution, some cases most of it.


WIZZARD


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## lazersteve (May 14, 2010)

Wizzard said:


> .. where there is one NM there are likely to be others, are other metals now likely to be in solution too. Is there a sequence needed to take one or the other first? ...



The process I listed is a modified version of one I saw in a book.

Here is some additional information on the same process as listed in the book:

1. Gold will precipitate as metallic gold.
2. Osmium precipitates as red salt.
3. Iridium precipitates as yellow salt slowly after boiling the solution.

No other information is given in this reference.

There are numerous other field test to confirm the presence of the mixed noble metals in solution.

Steve


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## WIZZARD (May 14, 2010)

I read a book from the Canadian Mining Institute by Louis Caribla,1979, no sure on the spelling, got some pages around somewhere in files. He roasted the ore with sodium hydroxide, and soda ash which make most NM soluble, depending on the value of the roast. What is not soluble is put back into the next batch. This is how you end up with PGM that are normally not soluble in AR, soluble in light acid. Thus Rh is among the metals made soluble in hot water. I'm working on using zinc electrodes in the solution to drop and or electo plate values to the cat and or drop out of the solution. The zinc saturates the solution and drives out the metals above zinc. I hope to recover the zinc at the cat and thus a reusable collector circuit. Who's tried that?

some one posted that I have some strange ideas..............just living up to it.



WIZZARD


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## rhodiumfever (May 14, 2010)

Thanks guys, a lot of food for thought there.
I shall be able to get a lab grade sample of Rh in a couple of days. Is there anything special I should be getting, ie Rhodium black or is it straightforward metal powder? Also in the field test when you say digest in distilled water does this mean put the hot ore in distilled water, please excuse my ignorance if this is obvious. Finally in point f you dissolve in water at 20 degrees Centigrade, the temperature here in the shade is a steady 35 degrees, would the difference in temperature preclude this test. 
The lab where I had the spectroscopic analysis done is very respectable and have nothing to gain from sweetening the results as inferred by Harold. Again, let me reiterate, I haven't tracked down the source yet so am not ready for a fire assay. Let me find a qualatative method first.
One of the strange things about the spectroscope assay is whilst it showed small quantities of other PGMs there were no traces of Pt or Pl. I think it was Irons who posted a link to PGM corrosion at 100 centigrade. On this table Pt and Pl are shown to react with KCN and this presumably would explain their absence.


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## lazersteve (May 14, 2010)

rhodiumfever said:


> ... Is there anything special I should be getting, ie Rhodium black or is it straightforward metal powder?



You want a water or acid soluble Rh salt so you can easily put it into solution for the test.



rhodiumfever said:


> ... Also in the field test when you say digest in distilled water does this mean put the hot ore in distilled water, please excuse my ignorance if this is obvious.


The melt will need to cool before adding the water as water will quickly boil away at temperatures over 100C. 



rhodiumfever said:


> ... Finally in point f you dissolve in water at 20 degrees Centigrade, the temperature here in the shade is a steady 35 degrees, would the difference in temperature preclude this test.



The temperature is given to determine the amount of ammonium nitrate that is required to form a saturated solution for the test. The formula is 1.5 grams per mL @20C, 3 g per mL at 40C, 4 g per mL at 60C. Adjust as required to make a saturated solution of ammonium nitrate. The test requires a saturated solution.

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my instructions.

Steve


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