# ok this is interesting



## infinatesorrow (Apr 27, 2011)

im just getting to know the properties of silver in the dish at the moment, i use 925 and purify it with borax which i may or may not be doing right. seems pretty straight forward the borax is a flux that binds the impurities and turns them to slag basically pretty simple.
i did these ingots practicing my pour which sucked cuz i didnt heat the jewelers mold up but ill be going to sand and wax soon enough 
but 
the ingots when you first test them the dichrome comes back with a pretty violent green reaction, but if you drop another drop of solution then it turns blood red, then goes back to green till you put another drop on

now the mold had oil on it and i figured you had to use oil and rolled with it, so that may have adulterated the product, i also used a brass brush on a motorized dremel to polish the pieces which may have effected the test


anyone come across a reaction like that before?

also i would like to be refered to processes using potassium nitrate as i have a big bag of it 
i ma in a unique situation where i have access to sulphuric and hydrochloric acids, as i am in the manufacturing field
i also have access to all the fire and heat i need though i do alot of my practice at home i dont really want to roll with the process at work till i have it down enough i can do it without affectiing productivity yes?

my boss is cool with all that long as i still bust ass  thing is i have as usual way too much information so id like to start with a few simple questions, easiest way to break silver, gold, and platinum down

easiest way to strip silver plate,

whats with using sodium nitrate without turning it into acid? is that possible? 

and anyone with experience recovering precious metals from locomotive scrap? alot of silver plate any clue as to what if anything has recoverable amounts of silver gold and platinum?
thanks


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 27, 2011)

If you really want to learn anything and have any success at all, you never pick a refining method based on the chemicals you happen to have on hand. You always pick the best method and THEN you get the chemicals.


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## infinatesorrow (Apr 28, 2011)

ya you have a point there ive been researching and dicking around to get a feel for it
il be doing the dry nitric recipe tomorrow i found a pretty good source for the chemicals not that thats hard 
im good at research but in the end you only get concepts that way true knowledge comes with wet feet and embarrassing mistakes 
with the scrap i have available i need a quick set up and tear down small electrolytic stripper
and at home ill use an actual furnace 
the green sand casting method seems best as far as molding the ingots 
right now its learn how the metals act under heat and the pour, 



last stage of research is q&a so say i get a mixture of gold and silver heated together, these both react the same to the borax more or less im told, so if the heat is too high would this create an alloy? and how would an alloy like that test dichrome? second the borax binds the copper or base metals, what metals wouldnt bind and turn to slag?

i have the major chemicals readily on hand free, i have access to tons of scrap thats silver gold and platinum coated 
so its a sweet set up, but right now im just wondering why my sterling is coming out of a clean crucible after being heated and poured 3 times with a slight yellow color to it and a reaction to both silver and gold tests from mass marketed test strips 

i have to beat it but that covers it for now i was selling the scraps but took them off cuz i dont know what the deal is and prefer to be honest


ill post pics tomorrow with the slag still on it

love your site by the way will be buying from you soon tomorrow proly


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## Oz (Apr 28, 2011)

We do not have anything to sell, we give information away for free.

Beyond that, is it possible for you to capitalize and use punctuation when you post? I truthfully just skimmed your post as it is hard to read given how it was written.

Welcome to the forum.


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## infinatesorrow (Apr 28, 2011)

ha ha how bout i just space it out better?

im fairly anti social so the grasp of capitols and punctuation kind of escapes me

as i was saying what would the reaction to a dichrome test be if there was somehow a small amount of gold mixed in with silver when heated?

im curious just for reference as to how the metals react to each other, and most of what ill be dealing with will be bi metal composition anyway 

either plated or filled or somehow or other bonded to base metals copper naturally being number one

ive already come to the conclusion that breaking your metals down all the way is the only real way to purify and be sure the metal is so 

what im looking for out of this really is-------

what the hell is coloring my silver ingots a bronze or gold color

i weld but never went to school for it, but correct me if im wrong

the borax is going to bind your common base metals to it 

turning them into a glass like substance otherwise known as slag

but from what i gather gold and silver act in a similar manner when heated in a dish with borax

gold being the heavier metal would want to separate, but since i am at this point using a very small dish 

whilst i figure my supply list out, there isnt room for the heavier metals to go their own separate ways 

so i end up with an alloy that would test both for gold and silver, would look like silver with a slight gold coloration

and have a green reaction to the usual silver test simply because of the gold content?

see im just a little confused as to why this silver heated and fluxed 3 times now is coming out 

with a golden hue and bubbling green like crazy in a test, it was good silver to start,

and itll test positive for silver, and for a tad less than 14k so i am assuming one of the 'silver' items 

contained some small amount of gold

otherwise im at a loss 

ill include pics soon sort of burnt at the moment but i like understanding my mistakes 

best way to learn 

sorry for the long winded ever sentences really its just me youll get used to it ha ha 

oh and i was talking about the items for sale on guys website, free videos and such, i appreciate that approach and 
hear his videos and such are well worth the price


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## kdaddy (Apr 28, 2011)

1. You can't purify 925 silver with borax.
2. Silver and gold form an alloy when melted together.
3. Gold will not react to silver testing solution, base metals will.
4. Put down the torch before you hurt yourself.
5. Start reading, all of your present and future questions have been asked and answered many times.
6. Learn how to form a written sentence so if you do have a question, (after doing a lot of #5) someone doesn't have to read it four times to understand it.


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## infinatesorrow (Apr 28, 2011)

sorry extreme adhd youre getting the best i can give for typing i accept your typing please allow me the same courtesy 

and im a welder no problem with torches 

and i ive read tons my usual problem with information is i absorb way too much takes awhile to sort out

ive read quite a bit and havent really come accross anything specifically that discusses purifying 925 as its more or less 

just trying to learn the properties of new metals, borax should bind the copper easily, but ..............

theres a whole universe between what should and what is. dont let my typing foll you im extremely well read

just a terrible attention span. 

so ill use question marks im usually typing with 1 hand so punctuation is a bit too difficult 

anyway, the only real mystery is why its got so much impurity in it now but moot point 

ill just mosey on and break that stuff down properly once i get the proper equipment 

and apologies ive read way too much saturation i keep reading its all just gobbledygook

taught myself all i know from books, and i know a little about an astonishing number of things, 

but only way to learn is to do it, make mistakes and ask people who know what they are doing why something isnt working 

oh and i have cant remember [email protected]#$ also that doesnt help

the spaces think of those as periods 

purifying 925 i cant find much on i ran with the borax as i read an article talking about how silver and gold both react the same to it

theoretically its sound flux pulls the impurities and binds them. i use the same process arc welding technically 

so out of curiosity and ill be searching this too but i work, play music run a business and this so my plate is full ha ha

what would you use as a flux to get that last little tidbit of base out of sterling short of an acid solution?

until i get out of this place i just dont have the ventilation to mess with acids 

i have 95% sulphuric sodium nitrate and sodium bi-sulphate all ready but without proper ventilation no can do


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## dtectr (Apr 28, 2011)

As a fellow ADHDer I can appreciate your dilemna - I wasn't diagnosed till I was 30, over 15 years ago, and am trying to unlearn some of my survival methods that interfere with my interactions with others. Re: typing - I hunt & peck about 20 words per minute. If I've had a beer or 2 it goes downhill from there.  :lol: 

I have learned, though, to take more time in preparing my posts and the amazing side benefit is that, sometimes, I am able to edit myself, before I just blurt out whats on my mind. I don't always accomplish that, unfortunately. 

And sometimes taking the time to write it out first helps me catch something obvious, so I don't sound as much like the newbie I really am. I am also a very visual learner, once I do something, even if its not completely accurate, helps me remember better how to do it or even improve on it next time.

Yeah, I thought there would be a "fire" alternative to the chemical processes, as well. I soon learned, though, that others are just as afraid of the "flammable gas" & "fire" thing as I was of "acids". Learn how to do it right, its all safe.

Hopefully, you'll be able to share some of your metal working & welding skills with us, as we share precious metals recovery & refining with you.

Please, do take the time to learn some of the forum guidelines - you sound like you'll be a valuable asset to the "team" here. But, if no one is able to read your posts, you won't get answers & we'll miss the fun of watching you progress.

Personally, I have learned, for the benefit of others, to swallow one of my pet peeves, namely, capitalizing the personal pronoun "I". English is the ONLY language which does so, & it says a lot about how we view ourselves. We are probably the most egotistical language set on the planet, & I would refuse to capitalize my "i''s as a sort of passive aggressive statement on how we should learn some humility, as a group. But, "Hey!" - its been worth the transition.

Hang in there & accept all advice in the spirit it is intended.
Good luck!
dtectr


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## infinatesorrow (Apr 28, 2011)

ya for the most part my typing is fine when i do it 2 handed, though i dont use capitals and chances are i wont get to that point in this lifetime. i always chalk stuff like that as i accept people for who they are though i understand the eternal sentence can get to some. ill try but for the most part ill usually be typing one handed cuz ill be doing at least 2 other things while im typing. ill try my best to present things in a coherent manner. alot of social mannerisms like that escape me, kind of like when i used to get berated for eating with my elbows on the table, i mean why not? but common courtesy makes sense. problem with being anti social, people think its means youre not friendly its nothing like that its just not quite being able to grasp alot of the little interactions and multitudinous rules that society chooses to encumber itself with to disguise the fact that most people are actually pretty uncool, and as soon as you turn your back they insert the knife.alot of play acting. good news is marketing doesnt work on me at all, media holds no sway and over time ive become a better person because of it ha ha 

but....................... courtesy is another thing all together yes?

anyway my knowledge of metals is pretty much learn as i go, i learned to weld by picking it up, its part of why ill be typing with one hand alot cuz im also learning to program midi and use it with my guitar, and learning to run a business and trying to study up on collectibles and purchasing stuff through the various auctions and researching on top of all that. wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to many irons in the fire. 


thank you for the advice though i know some are really sticklers for punctuation, i never really use it cant remember the rules for it ha ha. and spell checkers suck cuz they remind me ive gotten old i used to spell flawlessly those days are long gone 

anyway i gots to go do laundry boils down to i am an asset and will freely share anything i have with anyone, but im a tad ecentric, but i learn really super fast like a 2 year old, if i could remember any of it id be pretty smart. that ability makes me an asset to anyone 

you all will have to pardon though that i will ask a whole bunch of stupid questions, probably in the wrong forums, and with really bad grammar for a very short period of time. its the stage i go through to sort out all the information ive read, its probably annoying 

no

its definitely annoying 


but.......................

once i get through that stage ill be able to explain what ive learned in a manner that makes it really easy for other people to understand 

and that is a rare gift indeed 

so bear with me all im a trip but i have talents that make it worth putting up with all my faults. 

and this is probably the wrong forum but has anyone started combining their buying power yet ?

ive read some interesting leads on scrap, but ultimately if you want to make money you have to follow the 1st rule : MONEY TALKS 

i did mention ive been in commerce my whole life yes? so theres where i can probably help people i can make a killing in the current market 

already have, but its a tricky one to say the least anyway that has nothing to do with this forum so i will say goodbye, thanks for the advice i will try my best

and i read the forum on cleaning silver without nitric acid gonna look up where to get what was he was using as a catalyst/ electrolyte? a copper sulfate of some sort wasnt it?
i have a bag of that oddly enough that ended up in my walmart bag the other day i believe ill have to check but that method seems pretty useful.

ill have to find out more about the fire process too i like fire better than acids cuz it tends to be easier to control in a safe manner. acids splash, give off toxic fumes and most of 
these chemicals could easily be used as pre-cursors for the manufacture of methamphetamine meaning having them in your house with a box of cold pills; in extreme circumstances' 
could be easily railroaded through court and since i did time for that particular substance the less i have to actually have such things in my possession the better off i am. its really the hcl
the sulphuric, hydrogen peroxide and iodine. just having those 4 items in a garage together is enough to get a person put in prison for at least 5 - 10 these days. which makes fire seem even more appealing ha ha 

and ill try to limit the forum to when i can type with both hands


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## Drewbie (Apr 29, 2011)

infinatesorrow said:


> but only way to learn is to do it, make mistakes and ask people who know what they are doing why something isnt working



There are a number of people on the Darwin Awards List who lived by that motto.

It works with a lot of things (dating, golf, etc), but not when playing with chemicals.


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## Harold_V (Apr 29, 2011)

infinatesorrow said:


> ha ha how bout i just space it out better?


Please accept my comments in the spirit they are delivered. 

*Absolutely not acceptable. *

You come to a forum that offers information that, prior to the inception of the forum, bordered on the impossible for the novice to obtain. Here you find several members that have contributed to the knowledge base of many---and have done so with no remuneration. They try to deliver information in a clear and concise way, so it is understood. You receive the benefit of something in the neighborhood of 100 years of experience in the field of precious metal refining. 

I can't speak for others, but I certainly can speak for myself. If you fail to use good English (assuming it's your primary language) and talk to us in less than acceptable methods, I guarantee you, I won't respond to your posts. I know damned well I won't read them, just as I have not read this one, aside from reading enough to get the drift of the conversation. 

Just as you are expected to wear a suit and tie under certain circumstances, you are expected to use proper English on this forum. We make exceptions for those that don't use English as their primary language. No others need apply. If you are too illiterate to use acceptable language, you most likely are not capable of refining safely. 

Harold


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## infinatesorrow (Apr 29, 2011)

Drewbie said:


> infinatesorrow said:
> 
> 
> > but only way to learn is to do it, make mistakes and ask people who know what they are doing why something isnt working
> ...







ha ha 

too true, it is to assume that your standard and specific safety procedures are observed at ALL! times. It is definitely recommended that a dry run be practiced in most instances to familiarize one with the basic procedures. Safety first! If the standard procedures for the items you are using are carefully observed there will be no problems. Im not messing with any caustic or reactive mixes yet for lack of proper facilities.


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## Oz (Apr 29, 2011)

I can empathize with your situation if you have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder to the degree that your comments and writing suggests. I did take the time to read through everything you have written in this thread however, and I have to say it was a struggle for me to get through it due to not just how things were capitalized or the punctuation, but that I had trouble in finding a continuity of thought. 

We have had many come here that have written their posts in much the same way as you have through laziness. In your case I am willing to believe that is not the case, but that it is due to a handicap. No matter the reason, it does not however change the facts. Just as it is a struggle for you to write with proper sentence structure and in a cohesive manner, it is just as much of a struggle for me to try to make sense of what you write. Especially if I were to try to understand the meaning or principle ideas you wished answered (based on your posts in this thread) if I were to try to guide you in refining. 

I simply lack the time to try to learn how to read how you write to the point I would be of help to you in a meaningful way. Because I think you will find most others have the same difficulty, you will have to decide just how important it is to you to be able to correspond with others on the forum.

Some suggestions…

You commented that you learn well from reading books. This forum is the best book ever written on refining, read it.

Stick to asking one question or reply in a simple single paragraph. It may help if you write a post in a word document first. Don’t post it right away, let it set, then go back and read it later and fine tune it.

I do feel the need to point out that if you have severe Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder that precious metals chemistry may not be something that is a good idea. Refining requires great attention to what you are doing without distraction, as well as doing things with careful, slow, and deliberate steps. Anything less could cause harm to yourself and others or even death. This is not a hobby for a less than detail oriented person.

We all have our weak and strong points. Be thankful for your strong points and work on your weak ones. One of my weak points is that I prefer most communication verbally as I cannot type. I do so with 1 finger and that will not change due to damage in my tendons and nerves of my hands. This note to you took me over an hour to type. Now notice how much I have written on this forum, refining is important enough to me that I have taken the time to type with 1 finger.


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## silversaddle1 (Apr 29, 2011)

Ya know, I just don't get it. I had ADD when I was a kid (the 70's). I never made it thru high school. Yet I can still type well enough that people can understand what I'm saying. 

I agree with Harold on this one. If you can't even type well, how do you plan on refining safely? :shock:


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## dtectr (Apr 29, 2011)

silversaddle1 said:


> Ya know, I just don't get it. I had ADD when I was a kid (the 70's). I never made it thru high school. Yet I can still type well enough that people can understand what I'm saying.
> 
> I agree with Harold on this one. If you can't even type well, how do you plan on refining safely? :shock:


I think we're moving away from the purpose of this thread & topic.

silversaddle - I'm sure you mean no offense, but this thread is starting to become a little judgmental. We've moved from advising an individual lacking a skillset to predictions (based on no background knowledge) about someone's intellectual career aptitude. Frankly, I find it insulting, but I'm used to it & make allowances now the ignorance of others.

If you had ADD as a kid, you still have it - you don't outgrow neurological disorders. If you don't still have it, you never had it to begin with. This is hard science now - check out the writings of Hallowell & Ratey, as well advanced neurological research, including electrochemical brain scanning by Amen. If you did, you developed an effective way of coping & are now in a career (sales, right? #1 job for ADHDers, BTW, after entrepreneurial endeavors)in which your onetime "liability" has become recognized as an "asset". I just re-checked your profile & you don't list sales anymore but scrapping (entrepreneurship?). If so, case in point. *I made a memory mistake here & I'm sorry. I just re-read this & realized that I was confusing you (silversaddle) with another member. He/You did NOT have sales down as a career. As I'm not sure how to handle this with the "no post re-edit" issue, I left the comments in with my correction & apology. dtectr* *pm sent*

To broadly postulate that a person with a neurological disorder can't learn a set of safety protocols & basic to advanced chemistry, quite frankly, borders on discrimination. Did you hear what he's doing simultaneously while trying to learn this? No limitations there, that I can see!What the hell is midi, anyway? WAY beyond me. 

infanatesorrow will just have to create a a control process to keep himself on track. You will find that, in time, if he sticks with this, that he will see patterns which escape many of us &/or develop equipment to streamline what we do or even ID sources/applications that haven't been thought of. That's the other side of ADHD.

infinatesorrow - Have you considered voice recognition software? The good stuff is amazingly accurate & intuitive. I use *Dragon Naturally Speaking* by Nuance for preparing manuscripts. That one will even study documents in your My Documents folder to learn the way you "speak" when you write. Copy detailed instructions on processes listed here, import into a word processing document, store it in My Documents, run the auto or read it & use it to place trade jargon in its dictionary. A new version will cost $100 or more, but last year's can be had NIB off FeeBay for $20.

You should thank Oz for his insight & patience, & work to put his advice to use.

'Nuff said.
EDIT: grammar


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## eeTHr (Apr 29, 2011)

The trouble is that in _reality,_ concerning the subject of refining, inaccurate communications can kill. And not just the person attempting refining, but those around him, also. That's not an exaggeration.

Another problem is that the most experienced people on this forum, just don't have the time to wade through very difficult to understand text, which ultimately might not fully communicate what the person's question or situation really is.

A third problem is that a question which is not presented accurately, can lead to five or ten times the number of posts that are usually required to get a concept accross, and actually answer the question. The best people to provide answers, again, shouldn't have a demand to do so imposed upon them by someone who shows no regard for the value of the free help.

Fourth, if a question or situation is misrepresented, through error in communication, it can result in an answer which should not be applied to the actual situation. This is not only ineffective for the learner, but can be dangerous.

Fifth, typing, spelling, and grammer problems, being a disability, does not automatically include an _attitude_ disability along with them.

Sixth, Gothic/Punk usernames are not generally accepted as sincere gestures on this or any forum, but particularly disdained here. Free help to an _insincere_ person is much less likely to be forthcoming, especially from the professionals here. Who want's to help someone who doesn't care much about good advice, has a negative outlook on life, and so will quite possibly harm themselves and those around them?

I have never felt that anybody on this site would ever discriminate against any disabled person. However, when a person has the attitude of "that's just the way I am, and I'm not even going to _try_ to do things right," it's not very encouraging to me, that I will probably be doing a good thing by suggesting the use of dangerous chemicals. And it does not build confidence in me about the person actually following safe procedures.

Even the most particular people on this forum readily admit that "nobody's perfect." From my experience on this forum, the most important thing by far, seems to be _attitude._

After all, anyone offering free help, is putting forth a _pretty darned good attitude_ themselves, to begin with, and anyone having _any respect at all_ would do the same, in return.

I hope this might help anyone concerned.

.


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## kdaddy (Apr 29, 2011)

Sorry, I will not help you injure yourself or someone else. If you don't have the disipline to at least give your best effort in communicating your thoughts or questions. How diciplined are you going to be with dangerous and deadly chemicals.
I don't mean any disrespect to you but if this is a hobby you wish to pursue, you should read Hoke's books a chapter at a time.
Don't read anything else untill you understand fully what you have read, then read it again before moving to the next chapter.
If you do your part and add a little improvement to your writing you will receive help from many experienced people.


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## infinatesorrow (May 3, 2011)

For a second there this started to be an interesting conversation, but has pretty much degenerated to the equivalent the comments on youtube. Which each to their own, if thats your gig roll with it. me i simply dont have the time for it . I learned at a very early age that everyone has something they can learn from everyone else. The real truth is people are just people, and ive met more people from more walks of life than most can imagine,. I find being judgmental, taking politics serious or trying to force your ideals on another human to be the sole factor keeping the human race to reach their full potential.
how many opportunities have been lost over people inability to treat each other with respect and accept them for who they are. I live a blessed life because i try to follow that philosophy. One of the principles of leadership i learned is that its easy to tear people down, it takes real strength of character to build them up. 

I understood the request, but the mechanics are pretty slow to learn and im a busy man,i get what 3 hours of sleep a night, there's times that gets to me. but few things will shut down any useful exchange of information than a barrage of b#$%%((. I have to learn alot of different aspects of this field and it has to all be learned pretty much right now. Its really easy for the unwary to stumble. 

There are if you take the time to look quite a few dialects of the English language spoken in America, most of them are related to the culture, or region, really its a little bit of both yes? 

It is an interesting fact that when reading and encountering a word or phrase that they dont understand humans have a tendency to lose track of what they were reading, just like a word with the first letter and last letter in place is still readable and retain able. 

Really there are some people here who showed at least a little respect even the stern and orderly harold 5;Whom im guessing is the one who started the forum, and from a background im guessing that required strict attention to details.Retired? a very intelligent man, well educated probably university, though again its just a guess.some take the directness as intolerance which it may very well be, on the other hand it can also be a sign of integrity to be direct. its always best to just say what you mean and let the chips fall where they may. prefers a nice orderly world , almost sounds like x military or law enforcement . i personally like the upfront approach' So after quit taking myself so seriously, i was able to see that i would have to relearn the mechanics s of typeing, i was perfectly willing to do as best i could as time permits,since then its almost like reading the bathroom walls at work. There were a couple who actually had something to say, but for the most part the rest was a useless waste of time that completely destroyed any ability to have a meaningful exchange of information.

Infinate Sorrow is the name i publish my music under, and i paid the price for that talent. I earned that name through struggle and practice and perseverance and plenty of study. When i went to music school i knew more about cultural music than my theory teacher. i wear that name with pride. I approach everything including my job with my best effort and strive to become a craftsman. 3 times ive went to college and i cant remember hardly anything they taught me.i remember everything ive taught myself. in the 6 years ive had to work for someone else in my life, ive picked up certifications in 3 trades and am alsmot a craftsman in the 4th one. The guy that is custom making my guitar is a craftsman of some skill, and he has a saying 'pride is a sin, unless your a craftsman" and its true, Only a fool laughs at what another man values, because that man ( or woman ) may have a piece of information that could change your life in ways you dont even imagine. An opportunity lost, In the field of business you show me a weakness like its the same thing as sticking your chin out to a boxer. Politics too im sure, but the truth is its just not cool to ask for respect unless you are willing to give it.

one of the first statements i made in this little debate was "i accept you for the way you type, please accept me for mine" what i meant by that was that when people with an obviously technical background start breaking substances down to their molecular structure, it has the exact same effect on those of us who dont have them memorized. Its jargon, a dialect of english. I have to take the time to decipher it. Now the thing about jargon is in alot of cases its just that, they could have just as easily said it in a manner that everyone could understand. My dialect is slang, and yes i identify with counter cultures very well, and yes; as a matter of fact i am different, and i do refuse to be accepted for anything other than who i am, and no i am not particularly concerned as to whether or not others like it or not. Truth is what other people think or do is none of my business . point being i accepted it for what it is, if it seemed important enough to try to translate then i i go find the definition or ask directly. the only stupid question is the one you didnt ask.

and handicapped? ha ha in a way that is true, but only so much as i limit myself just like everyone else. Ill tell my friends that was used to describe me theyll get a kick out of it.thats be the first time anyone has used that word to describe me. 

5 weeks ago i took a 4500 loan on my 401k.and entered into the metals market for the first time. I now own over 3 acres of land in 2 states, I have a collection of 4, possibly 5 very rare un-circulated coins which ( and i live by the motto 'Always do your research') i will have graded by pcgs' and are worth a minimum of 50,000. ive helped keep a roof over my girlfriend and her sisters head in vegas, where she has to stay for a little while while they make sure shes learned to abide by the rules. as a matter of fact i am going to vegas this weekend, and i still have my initial investment. Ive already told my supervisor by this time next year i will
be once again working for myself and that i will NEVER work for another man again. and thats how its going to happen. i also did my initial experiments to see how the chemicals react, nothing fancy, stuff thats that dangerous one should really take enough time to get a feel for the properties of the ingredients so they know theres not going to be any 'surprises. conducting said experiment at work because untill i get my license next week its a bad idea to be throwing those chemicals together in my home as it could easily turn into a felony. and without the license to show its iffy as to whether 

"Sorry, I will not help you injure yourself or someone else. If you don't have the disipline to at least give your best effort in communicating your thoughts or questions. How disciplined are you going to be with dangerous and deadly chemicals."

again i find this to be a judgmental and self defeating approach, by refusing to help someone do something right when they ask, you are in fact contributing to them injuring themselves or others. 

people learn in different manners theres actually 3: tactile, visual and aural. The way i teach is to implement a little of each and i find it has results. you show them person how you do and explain why you do it that way. give them something simple to do that will help boost their confidence and alleviate self limiting fears and anxieties. compliment them on their efforts, explain what you would have done different and why, then have them do it 3 more times because any musician knows 4 is the magic number.

its also how i approach learning, it does not make me stupid. actually information overload is a bad way to teach, thats the college approach and i cant remember anything i learned any of the 3 times i went there. i can remember every single thing ive learned on my own and always will.

its a shame some of you seem like allright people and harold 5 i am pretty disorderly myself chaotic actually, but as i am fed up with corporate america i strive to approach every thing i do as a future master crafstman because the loss of craftsmanship is what has weakened this country and corporate america will be the downfall of the united states. I just dont have time to waste trying to relearn how to type, i am perfectly willing however to try to come to a suitable arrangement that would make effective communication possible. but; as i said earlier the chances of a meaningful communication of ideas has been ruined even typing this letter is time that would be better spent trying to get my equipment communicating so that i can record my 3rd self produced album " proceeding clarity " based on the principle that "conflict proceeds clarity" 

this forum does have alot of useful information, but its over intellectualized by far. makes it alot more difficult to decipher. dumb it down a little, only because it makes it easier for people to digest which after all is the same thing youre asking me yes? smart it up a little? hokes book is good in that he describes stuff clearly and concisely and right from the start he tells you to familiarize yourself with the reactions and materials, BEFORE proceeding. doesnt matter how many times you read the book, theory is just that theory, it takes application to turn it in to knowledge and repetition to make it a skill 

you guys make it sound like if you dont read the book 1000 times and walk in a circle 3 times backwards the whole world will end if you try to make nitric acid. better results approaching it from a more practical point of view. there are certain precautions that are standard for every type of hazmat, these are all standard practice and the knowledge is easily obtained that allows one to safely do this stuff. but the more you scare a person the harder it will be for them to concentrate on what they are doing. show people how to respect what they are working with not live in fear of it. fear is self limiting tends to interfere with true learning 

anyway ill stop by sometimes im sure, i never throw away a source of information if i can help it. but ill go and ask questions somewhere where people have an open enough mind that i can spend my time more productively than writing this stupid letter. i just dont have time to deal with semantics and certainly if i was some kind of moron, then sending me off without taking the time to show me at least how not to kiil myself would be the moral responsibility would it not

anyway point being it seems like ill have to go ask questions where people will be a little more concerned with what you are saying, rather than how you are saying it.

which means we all lose out on whatever opportunities we may have been able to explore together, pity. hopefully some of you al walked away with something out of it though. i did ciao


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## Harold_V (May 3, 2011)

infinatesorrow said:


> Really there are some people here who showed at least a little respect even the stern and orderly harold


I would hope you take away from the recent exchange that it has little to do with respect, and everything to do with getting readers to apply emphasis on good and proper practice. We do that, in part, by demanding that readers speak in clear, concise English---we prefer to not let the general tone of the forum deteriorate to a slug fest. We are quick (very quick, indeed!) to run off those that refuse to "heal". It's not a power struggle, but a way of defining those that have a serious intent, and willing to comply with that which those of us that have experience know to be important. 



> Whom im guessing is the one who started the forum,



No. It isn't mine. I am a volunteer, just as the balance of moderators are. The forum was started by our leader, Noxx, then a 17 year old young man that has great wisdom and judgment. We look after him as if he was our own son. There is good reason for our attitude, which you will come to understand, I'll talk about that a little bit later. 



> and from a background im guessing that required strict attention to details.Retired?


Yes, having worked as a machinist/toolmaker, I am very detail oriented. It was that quality that made me successful in my venture. 



> a very intelligent man, well educated probably university, though again its just a guess.


Sigh!

If only. I struggled to graduate high school, and received some very lousy grades, including failing one class (history). I have no formal education beyond high school, aside from a couple quarters, one of chemistry, one of advanced mathematics. What I do have is pride in myself, and the image I try to project. One need not have a formal education to be educated---although it is rare, today, to find those that have respect for self made people. 



> some take the directness as intolerance which it may very well be, on the other hand it can also be a sign of integrity to be direct. its always best to just say what you mean and let the chips fall where they may. prefers a nice orderly world , almost sounds like x military or law enforcement .


It is very much a part of trying to pass on to others a skill set that can prove fatal. If I, or others, find we are talking to a mule, it is best we don't contribute. If a reader has a mindset that he must do things his way, he/she often goes a direction that is troublesome, having failed to observe what may have been very good guidelines. Self thinkers, those without experience, tend to create messes that are difficult to unwind, due in part to having included a step they "thought" would be useful. I have long admonished the new guys to stick to the known procedures---which are proven to be successful. Making uninformed decisions can lead to failure, and even death. It's easy to create explosive compounds when working with precious metals. Follow the "rules" and you're perfectly safe, but one wrong misstep, one that may appear to be harmless, and you can die. No one in their right mind wants to be party to anything like that. 



> i personally like the upfront approach' So after quit taking myself so seriously, i was able to see that i would have to relearn the mechanics s of typeing, i was perfectly willing to do as best i could as time permits,since then its almost like reading the bathroom walls at work. There were a couple who actually had something to say, but for the most part the rest was a useless waste of time that completely destroyed any ability to have a meaningful exchange of information.


The important part of your comment, here, is the last sentence. When you type a long paragraph, no punctuation, no capitalization, maybe it's OK with you, but others find it bordering on the impossible to read. That, my friend, is not conducive to having a meaningful exchange. It is for your own good that we insist you try to do better. Otherwise, you won't garner the attention of those that may have the answer to your problems. 

<snip lots of very informative text---all read by me. >



> "Sorry, I will not help you injure yourself or someone else. If you don't have the disipline to at least give your best effort in communicating your thoughts or questions. How disciplined are you going to be with dangerous and deadly chemicals."
> 
> again i find this to be a judgmental and self defeating approach, by refusing to help someone do something right when they ask, you are in fact contributing to them injuring themselves or others.



I hope I covered that with my comments, above. If you, or any reader, is hell bent on presenting themselves in a fashion whereby we must accept them, warts and all, and they have little to no interest in making an attempt to comply with simple "rules of the forum", that's a pretty good sign that they will accept only information with which they agree, right or wrong. If that be the case, and a reader is bound to be self destructive, so be it---but let them do it on their own. I know, personally, I would not enjoy hearing that I had offered you guidance, and you were hurt in the process of pursuing your interest---ignoring information that you may not find to your liking. 



> people learn in different manners theres actually 3: tactile, visual and aural. The way i teach is to implement a little of each and i find it has results. you show them person how you do and explain why you do it that way. give them something simple to do that will help boost their confidence and alleviate self limiting fears and anxieties. compliment them on their efforts, explain what you would have done different and why, then have them do it 3 more times because any musician knows 4 is the magic number.


If you play Haydn's The Creation and mess up, you don't die. If you screw up with chemicals, you may. We can't stand by and watch you do stupid things until you get it right. We try to give advice that is useful, and safe. It can't be disseminated properly when there is a total disregard for proper language. The forum is read my many---some with an education, some without. We must speak as if we have knowledge----not as if we're dumbed down. People that speak poorly are often dismissed. This forum is the only place on the internet where you can learn proper procedures (which you are soon to discover). 



> this forum does have alot of useful information, but its over intellectualized by far. makes it alot more difficult to decipher. dumb it down a little, only because it makes it easier for people to digest which after all is the same thing youre asking me yes? smart it up a little? hokes book is good in that he describes stuff clearly and concisely and right from the start he tells you to familiarize yourself with the reactions and materials, BEFORE proceeding. doesnt matter how many times you read the book, theory is just that theory, it takes application to turn it in to knowledge and repetition to make it a skill


Practice makes perfect, agreed?

How about bad practice. Does it build perfection? I agree, you must apply what you learn, but if you apply what you think you've learned (and it's incorrect), how is that going to make you better at what you hope to achieve? Refining is dead simple---when you know how. Follow the "recipe" and you'll achieve success. Venture forth with incorrect information, or change that parts you don't like, and that all changes. 



> you guys make it sound like if you dont read the book 1000 times and walk in a circle 3 times backwards the whole world will end if you try to make nitric acid. better results approaching it from a more practical point of view. there are certain precautions that are standard for every type of hazmat, these are all standard practice and the knowledge is easily obtained that allows one to safely do this stuff. but the more you scare a person the harder it will be for them to concentrate on what they are doing. show people how to respect what they are working with not live in fear of it. fear is self limiting tends to interfere with true learning


I interpret those comments more like "I'll do it my way---I don't have to learn what you want me to learn". Problem with that attitude is what I tried to say, above. When you don't follow prescribed procedures, you generally fail. Then you want one of us to step forward and save your bacon. You don't have the time or patience to learn from the bottom up, but now you want to be bailed out. We don't work that way, and we shouldn't. You should know, by now, that a guy doesn't buy a guitar and is an instant success as a musician. He takes lessons and dedicates ample time to (proper) practice. If he fails to do that and tries to play with seasoned musicians, he fails (speaking from personal experience). Why should it be any different when refining gold? Paul Desmond played the sweetest alto sax in modern times. He made it look easy--as if anyone could do it. That's because he paid dues---he studied the instrument and did his share of practice time---he did not pick up an alto and start playing. And so it is with refining precious metals. You must be disciplined, and follow instructions, and, hopefully, not try to reprogram those that can help you. 



> anyway ill stop by sometimes im sure, i never throw away a source of information if i can help it. but ill go and ask questions somewhere where people have an open enough mind that i can spend my time more productively than writing this stupid letter.


Chuckle!
It is only a matter of time until you see the wisdom of what you've been told. If you gain *information* (a term I use loosely) elsewhere, you'll come to understand what we've all been trying to tell you. If you're the type that must be run over by a bus in order to understand it can be harmful, I wish you well in your venture, but I fully expect you'll be back here seeking advice. Remember---we'll still expect you to follow convention----to write so it can be understood---and to use punctuation. 

This I guarantee you---there is *no other source on the internet *where you can learn proper procedures. There's no shortage of those that want you to believe they know how it's done (follow the money and you'll see what I'm talking about), but I expect when you look for that lost wallet where the light's best instead of where it was lost, that will come home to roost fast enough. 

Good luck!

Harold


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## kdaddy (May 3, 2011)

I stand behind me previous post 100%. I see that you have made an attempt to correct your written communication so you obviously
took something from the advice you have received, so I will offer a little more. When you come here and ask for advice and someone answers your request, do not turn your nose up. You will not find better guidance anywhere but you have to be able to handle the truth and stop being so sensitive. You must pay attention to every detail to stay out of harms way, otherwise you or someone around you could be seriously injured or worse. Remember, just because you don't like the answer, doesn't make it less true.


P.S. I know what infinite means but what is infinate?


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## eeTHr (May 3, 2011)

infinatesorrow---

In your long post, you brought up many things. _None of which_ was the point that I and others were presenting to you.

Instead, you claimed that we were stating reasoning other than that which we actually were. This is formally known as the Straw Man Fallacy rebuttal, which use is to merely appear to win an argument, regardless of the logic presented to you.

The question arises, that if you are smart enough to write all those premises and conclusions, then doesn't that make you smart enough to communicate accurately, if you really wanted to?

A conclusion could be made that intelligence is not always proportional to wisdom. Another could be that attitude is a function of intent.


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## butcher (May 6, 2011)

Let us get back to refining metals.

infinatesorrow, if you make short posts, it should be easier, you are a smart man, lets cut the bull and grab the bull by the horns and get back to refining some gold….


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## infinatesorrow (Jun 20, 2011)

Infinate is used in some old english gothic type horror stories, H.P. Lovecraft being one who used the term. Check myspace, Interesting music. Anyway.............
this last post is one i can relate to
I only have 2 real questions at the moment
1:best way to get from silver nitrate to silver
2roperties of silver niitrate and precautions.
And oh ya 
3:can the nitric acid from an electro-cell be reused once the silver nitrate is filtered
I realize these are covered somewhere in the forum and am currently searching, its my firm belief the only stupid question is the one you didnt ask


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## butcher (Jun 23, 2011)

Cementing silver from silver nitrate solution with a copper buss bar, washed powder can be melted.

Do not drink it, turns hands black, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_nitrate.

I would save for cell later, or cement silver, then save copper nitrate for reuse (can make a nitric with salts or other uses).


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