# Do you report scrap income on your taxes?



## Anonymous

Is it law to report what you made in scrap metal on your taxes?


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## loco

I'm not sure how that fairs overall but I know here in michigan if you made less than $600 at anything you don't have to claim it at least when talking about gambling or employment so I would imagine it'd be for almost everything. Then again I know guys who have been turning scrap metals into the local junk yards for ages and not claiming a cent of it.


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## Froggy

Selling commodities can have advantages, Timber,produce (roadside), metals.......


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## calgoldrecyclers

to the best of my knowledge, as long as it is a "hobby", it isn't neccesary to report on your taxes as income. if however, you were doing recycling as a livlihood, you would also be able to deduct costs of opperating said business. hope that helps. happy hunting!


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## Recyclebiz_com

EVERYTHING you receive, with very few exceptions, is considered income by the Feds. Doesn't matter whether it's from a hobby, bartering, or a business. One of the exceptions is from a legal inheritance (after all death and estate taxes have been paid, of course). There are also some legal settlements, and a very limited number of income sources which are excepted from federal taxation, such as tax exempt bonds.

This is easily searchable on IRS sites. State regulations vary widely. 

Scott recyclebiz_com


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## Anonymous

Recyclebiz_com said:


> EVERYTHING you receive, with very few exceptions, is considered income by the Feds. Doesn't matter whether it's from a hobby, bartering, or a business. One of the exceptions is from a legal inheritance (after all death and estate taxes have been paid, of course). There are also some legal settlements, and a very limited number of income sources which are excepted from federal taxation, such as tax exempt bonds.
> 
> This is easily searchable on IRS sites. State regulations vary widely.
> 
> Scott recyclebiz_com



Taxes according to the supreme court are VOLUNTARY in nature. So If you volunteer to pay then you owe!

Flora v. United, 362 US 145.

Ruled that our tax system is based on voluntary assessment and
payment, not on force or coercion. "Our system of taxation is based
upon voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint."

Cheek v. United States, 498 U.S. 192.

Held that if the defendant has a subjective good faith belief no
matter how unreasonable, that he or she was not required to file a tax
return, the government cannot establish that the defendant acted
willfully in not filing an income tax return. In other words, that
the defendant shirked a legal duty that he knew existed.

Long v. Rasmussen, 281 F. 236, at 238

"The revenue laws are a code or a system in regulation of tax
assessment and collection. They relate to taxpayers, and not to
non-taxpayers. The latter are without their scope. No procedures are
prescribed for non-taxpayers, and no attempt is made to annul any of
their rights and remedies in due course of law. With them Congress
does not assume to deal, and they are neither the subject nor the
object of the revenue laws."


Redfield v. Fisher, 292 P. 813, 135 Or. 180, 294 P.461, 73 A.L.R.
721 (1931)

"The individual, unlike the corporation, cannot be taxed for the mere
privilege of existing. The corporation is an artificial entity which
owes its existence and charter powers to the state; but the
individuals' rights to live and own property are natural rights for
the enjoyment of which an excise cannot be imposed."

"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and people who mean to be
their own governors, must arm themselves with the power which
knowledge gives." James Madison

"Government is like a fire, useful in the fireplace, but if it gets
out of its place, it will consume everything you own," by George
Washington.

Sorry guy's I'm a newb this may be off topic here but, I can't help it when people refer to IRS codes as something that pertains to all. When in fact they only pertain to Entities that can be taxed by the feds. Do some research on your own you may find that the IRS codes do not apply to you!


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## Harold_V

mygor said:


> Sorry guy's I'm a newb this may be off topic here but, I can't help it when people refer to IRS codes as something that pertains to all. When in fact they only pertain to Entities that can be taxed by the feds. Do some research on your own you may find that the IRS codes do not apply to you!


While this matter us off topic, and should be discussed elsewhere on the forum (Bar & Grill), I'll respoind here, so those that may have already read your words won't miss mine. 

You don't think the IRS codes apply to citizens? 

Anyone that subscribes to that notion (and responds accordingly) is in for some serious consequences, and a wake-up call like one they've never experienced before. 

One of my childhood friends resides in Lacey, Washington. He owns 10 acres of heavily timbered land, which he acquired long ago, for a very reasonable price. It borders on the city, and is of considerable value today-likely $100,000/acre at a minimum.

Like you, he bought in to the notion that he wasn't required to pay taxes-----that they weren't a requirement, and were not legally assessed on citizens. To that end, he fought with IRS for several years, waving his "I'm not required to pay" flag in their faces time and again, refusing to pay taxes based on the same NONSENSE you are promoting here. 

He came within a fraction of an inch of losing his land, ending up borrowing money to pay IRS for past taxes, interest and penalties, thanks to his refusal to pay those "illegal" taxes. The order to seize his property had already been issued, with a short period of time for him to settle his debt prior to confiscation. 

Get one thing straight in your head. Whether you think taxation is legal, or not, or whether you feel IRS has the authority to tax you, or to confiscate your property if you fail to file and pay makes no difference. They will, indeed, tax you, and they will remove you from your own property, leaving you with an empty sack, if you fail to pay. They see to it, and your thinking it's legal, or not, won't make any difference. The list is long of people that think they are exempt from paying taxes. Many of them reside in prison now. 

I'll let you in one the only secret that is sure to exempt you from taxation. Don't make any money, and don't earn goods through your labor or services. 

Harold


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## Anonymous

Harold_V said:


> mygor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry guy's I'm a newb this may be off topic here but, I can't help it when people refer to IRS codes as something that pertains to all. When in fact they only pertain to Entities that can be taxed by the feds. Do some research on your own you may find that the IRS codes do not apply to you!
> 
> 
> 
> While this matter us off topic, and should be discussed elsewhere on the forum (Bar & Grill), I'll respoind here, so those that may have already read your words won't miss mine.
> 
> You don't think the IRS codes apply to citizens?
> 
> Anyone that subscribes to that notion (and responds accordingly) is in for some serious consequences, and a wake-up call like one they've never experienced before.
> 
> One of my childhood friends resides in Lacey, Washington. He owns 10 acres of heavily timbered land, which he acquired long ago, for a very reasonable price. It borders on the city, and is of considerable value today-likely $100,000/acre at a minimum.
> 
> Like you, he bought in to the notion that he wasn't required to pay taxes-----that they weren't a requirement, and were not legally assessed on citizens. To that end, he fought with IRS for several years, waving his "I'm not required to pay" flag in their faces time and again, refusing to pay taxes based on the same NONSENSE you are promoting here.
> 
> He came within a fraction of an inch of losing his land, ending up borrowing money to pay IRS for past taxes, interest and penalties, thanks to his refusal to pay those "illegal" taxes. The order to seize his property had already been issued, with a short period of time for him to settle his debt prior to confiscation.
> 
> Get one thing straight in your head. Whether you think taxation is legal, or not, or whether you feel IRS has the authority to tax you, or to confiscate your property if you fail to file and pay makes no difference. They will, indeed, tax you, and they will remove you from your own property, leaving you with an empty sack, if you fail to pay. They see to it, and your thinking it's legal, or not, won't make any difference. The list is long of people that think they are exempt from paying taxes. Many of them reside in prison now.
> 
> I'll let you in one the only secret that is sure to exempt you from taxation. Don't make any money, and don't earn goods through your labor or services.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


While you make a good point, your friend made a mistake that I have not made. He forgot to ask the most important question when he went to court. 

Can you show me the law that requires me to pay income taxes?

They can't because there is no law that applies to citizens born outside of the United States. According to the U.S. constitution The United States is an area not to exceed 10 miles square ( Washington DC ). The only exception to this is Military Bases and, territories. Since I was not born in Washington D.C. or a military base or territory. I am a non-resident alien to the United States. So I fill out the non-resident alien form for the IRS. If you look at the court cases I pointed out. All but one are Supreme Court cases From the last twenty to thirty years. The latest one is a decision from 1996. So I say again that if you sign your W2s and your 1040s you are volunteering to pay! I'm very sorry your friend did not do all the homework that was needed to defend himself. He should have asked that question in court. If he had there would have been a very different outcome. Because they can't show you a law that does not exist.

In fact if he had filed the proper FOI on the violations he was charged with he would have probably found that he had not paid taxes on his bus factory in Guam. That is what they charged a friend of mine with. He did not get this Info in time for the trial. But guess what? In the appeal he proved that he had never been to Guam and did not own any property there to be taxed. So the court had no choice but to reverse its decision. 
The IRS had nothing to appeal on there part because they started out with a lie. Also the people who had bought his home and business at the tax auction lost out, because the court returned his property to him. So watch out for those Gov. auctions. At the bottom of the contract are the words caveat em tor (buyer beware).


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## Harold_V

My friend had more than his share of council from people that shared your belief. The mistake he made is the same one they all make in due course of being pursued----that of telling the IRS they don't have the authority to tax, based on little trick comments such as you've provided. I know others that have held your beliefs, all of which have lost their battle. One of them has reduced himself to hauling scrap paper and metals for cash payment. He drives a well worn 60's model truck and owns no property, although he at one time did. He has no quality of life----all in an attempt to avoid paying taxes. 

You may think you're clever, but take your tape recorder to a meeting with IRS and record your conversations with them----all the while explaining to them that you don't have to pay taxes because you're not a citizen. My money says you're going to spend some quality time getting an attitude adjustment behind bars. You may also lose everything that you think belongs to you----like your property. 

You may have a point by making a play with words, but they've heard it all before, and don't allow people to prevail----for risk of complete collapse of our system. If you can't understand the ramifications of allowing people to walk away unscathed, you have my sympathy. You, sir, will become one of the victims. 

Understand I'm not talking about what may or may not be right or legal----I'm simply saying that you will pay taxes -----or they'll use you for an example of why you should have. Surely, you understand that the IRS answers to almost no one---including the supreme court (right or wrong). 

Harold


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## markqf1

I'd be careful. Unless you have alot of funds to defend yourself and don't mind losing them.  
The federal govt. seems to do as it pleases.
If you ask them, I'm sure they'll tell you owe the taxes.

Mark


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## Anonymous

Harold_V said:


> My friend had more than his share of council from people that shared your belief. The mistake he made is the same one they all make in due course of being pursued----that of telling the IRS they don't have the authority to tax, based on little trick comments such as you've provided. I know others that have held your beliefs, all of which have lost their battle. One of them has reduced himself to hauling scrap paper and metals for cash payment. He drives a well worn 60's model truck and owns no property, although he at one time did. He has no quality of life----all in an attempt to avoid paying taxes.
> 
> You may think you're clever, but take your tape recorder to a meeting with IRS and record your conversations with them----all the while explaining to them that you don't have to pay taxes because you're not a citizen. My money says you're going to spend some quality time getting an attitude adjustment behind bars. You may also lose everything that you think belongs to you----like your property.
> 
> You may have a point by making a play with words, but they've heard it all before, and don't allow people to prevail----for risk of complete collapse of our system. If you can't understand the ramifications of allowing people to walk away unscathed, you have my sympathy. You, sir, will become one of the victims.
> 
> Understand I'm not talking about what may or may not be right or legal----I'm simply saying that you will pay taxes -----or they'll use you for an example of why you should have. Surely, you understand that the IRS answers to almost no one---including the supreme court (right or wrong).
> 
> Harold



My friend I will explain nothing to the IRS. And it will be recorded for court if that time comes. I will only ask that one question until they answer. Show me the law that requires me to pay the taxes on my property? Wages and renumeration for labor are NOT income they are property. This has already been decided by many Supreme Court cases. When lower courts make decisions that are contrary to these findings the appellate court will ALWAYS send the case back to the lower court with the corrections. Believe me until my friend moved back into his home that the IRS had taken from him I thought just like you do. At that point I started spending as many hours as I could at The local Library of Congress.

I have spent months of time there in the last 12 years checking the facts. I am no lawyer so I can't give anyone legal advice. All I can say is what any judge will tell you Ignorance is no excuse for the law. If you don't take the time to learn it then you suffer the consequences. There are many IRS agents who have quit or been fired for asking the question. Where is the LAW that requires a person to pay income taxes? Show me I have looked for a long time and I haven't found it yet. Well thats enough on this subject. I came here to learn something different.


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## Lou

While I think a lot of taxes are a lot of crap and don't go to what I, as a citizen, feel they SHOULD go to, I would still feel bad if I used the roads, public transportation, etc that other people paid for out of their salaries. 

Essentially, even if I could get away without paying taxes, I would still pay some of them because I enjoy many services here and I don't want to freeload off the system.

From building roads, bridges, and plowing your street all the way to military action in the name of protecting the USA, none of it is free. A government and the services it provides is supported by its citizenry, and everything we let it do to us and for us, we do of our own volition.


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## Anonymous

Lou said:


> While I think a lot of taxes are a lot of crap and don't go to what I, as a citizen, feel they SHOULD go to, I would still feel bad if I used the roads, public transportation, etc that other people paid for out of their salaries.
> 
> Essentially, even if I could get away without paying taxes, I would still pay some of them because I enjoy many services here and I don't want to freeload off the system.
> 
> From building roads, bridges, and plowing your street all the way to military action in the name of protecting the USA, none of it is free. A government and the services it provides is supported by its citizenry, and everything we let it do to us and for us, we do of our own volition.



Just so we are clear there are many ways for the government to collect taxes. The gasoline tax pays for roads and such and it is a legal tax. The IRS is not! I do not say that people should not pay taxes at all. Just that there are LEGAL ways for the government to make money. The IRS is unconstitutional it is Illegal for the government to collect taxes in this manner. It says so right in the U.S. Constitution. All I am trying to say is that it is the duty of everyone to know the law and, keep the U.S.Government in check. We are not doing this now wake up people.


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## Arcani

on US tax law, interveiws with former IRS workers
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?do...109&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

i better question is do u have to pay tax at all :lol:


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## JustinNH

Hey all
New to the forum (which i have to say is the best resource i have seen on the net about refining, etc) and thought id share my 2 cents on this topic.

Yeah, you have to include it on your income, as mentioned by someone else, although most people ignore this... 

However, remember that just like operating a small business, hobby income can be offset or atleast lowered by expenses that are incurred. Income for hobbies can be brought down to 0 (i.e. no taxes need to be paid) but there cannot be a loss if it is classified as a hobby and not a small business. 

Also, if you make a profit for any 3 out of the last 5 years either you or the IRS can argue that the hobby is indeed a business and either you can take a loss in the current year from the gold business and apply it to your other income or the IRS can make you pay business taxes.

Once again, i have to say, this is a great forum!


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## Seamus

I haven't reported my income yet.


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## Shecker

The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Randy in Gunnison


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## Noxx

Here in Quebec we are the highest taxed province in Canada. We're taxed more than 13% on goods...


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## Oz

Ouch! And I disliked 6% state sales tax in my state.


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## Noxx

Consider yourself lucky then


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## Shaul

I can't understand what you guys are complaining about.

Here in Israel, we have a 15.5% sales tax.


Shaul


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## Noxx

We had 15% sales tax two years ago, but thanks god, they lowered it a bit.


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## Rag and Bone

I lived in Canada for several years and loved it. The taxes and a weak U.S. dollar were really tough to take having grown up in the U.S. 

Americans that gripe about taxes have no idea how good they have it. That's not to say taxes couldn't be lowered if wasteful spending was eliminated.


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## istari9

By the way the IRS is the US Gov's collection agency. They hit me for taxes 4 years old I did not know were owed. So I pay them 1500 total. 
They will find you sometime... That is what they do.

Ray


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