# help please gold will not drop



## michelemalatesta (Mar 16, 2010)

Hi guys,

I started with some pins, acid peroxide then i went to the hcl cl. I am using bonide stump out and the gold just will not drop. when i add the bonide the solution just keeps getting lighter. I bought steves dvd and followed every step. He suggested i heat it to drive off the clorox. I heated it for two days. My test shows there is gold. It just will not drop. Any sugestions on where I went wrong or what to do? Right now it is still on heat. I tried to add some hcl and that did nothing.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 16, 2010)

What kind of pins are you working with?

How many pins did you start with?

How much fluid are you working with?

How much SMB did you add?

It could be that you have such a small amount of gold in a large amount of fluid and it will take a long time to drop the gold.


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## leavemealone (Mar 16, 2010)

> I heated it for two days. My test shows there is gold. It just will not drop. Any sugestions on where I went wrong or what to do? Right now it is still on heat.


Unless you added a gallon of bleach......you can stop heating it.


> I bought steves dvd and followed every step.


We need accurate details of what you did.Did you make notes of the amounts of chemicals used?Or times?If so post those.So far it sounds like you just heated it so long that you concentrated the solution by evaporation.That will cause the gold to molecularly "bond" with the any copper in the solution.Getting it back may range from easy to borderline impossible.The easiest way to tell if thats the problem is rehydrate with water,and see if the gold drops on its own.If not then add a little more smb,and watch for a reaction.If it turns cloudy then clear again and nothing drops then you have something in the solution that is redigesting the gold.If it does not turn cloudy,then its just not being precipitated at all.Which means you need to consider dropping everything with zinc and starting over.
Don't get overwhelmed.This all sounds more difficult than it is.Just start by posting your quantities like barren asked.One of us will take it from there.
Johnny


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## qst42know (Mar 16, 2010)

Double check the label on your stump out. 

They may have changed formulas.

If the chemicals aren't listed on the label get the MSDS for the exact product you have.


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## michelemalatesta (Mar 16, 2010)

Ok, 

I used 2 batches,

1st one had mostly gold plated pins 1 lb. after the nitric treatment filtering and rinsing ..I added 2 cups of muriatic acid and 1 1/2 cups of clorox, I then added 2 tsps of smb, i saw the brown and then it dissapeared. I then heated it for a couple more hours. I then added the smb again. Nothing happened. The solution just turned a light yellow.


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## michelemalatesta (Mar 16, 2010)

My gold test turns a dark brown. I know the gold is in the solution, it just wont drop.


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## metalfish AR (Mar 16, 2010)

I am having a similar issue as this one posted but I think I finally got it figured out. I am wondering if it is okay to dilute the precipitant in a small amount of boiling hot water before pouring it into AR solution that has been filtered very well and showing a very high gold content. Or should I just add the precipitant straight to it. I have gotten different suggestions on this and am wondering what you guys think...maybe steve, barren or johnny could have some insight on this?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 16, 2010)

michelemalatesta said:


> Ok,
> 
> I used 2 batches,
> 
> 1st one had mostly gold plated pins 1 lb. after the nitric treatment filtering and rinsing ..I added 2 cups of muriatic acid and 1 1/2 cups of clorox, I then added 2 tsps of smb, i saw the brown and then it dissapeared. I then heated it for a couple more hours. I then added the smb again. Nothing happened. The solution just turned a light yellow.



If you started with 1 lb of pins you might have 2 grams of gold there.

Did you incenerate after the nitric treatment? 

Did you boil with water 3 times after the nitric treatment?

2 cups of HCL and 1-1/2 cup of clorox. 

Did you add the clorox in small increments or a lot at a time? How long of a time did it take you to add the clorox?

You can disolve an oz of gold in about 5-6ounces of HCL/CL mix, you have roughly 28 oz of fluid you are working with. Keep your fluids to a minimum.

Did you dilute this with water? If so this adds even more fluid you are dealing with.

Sorry to get off track, to answer your question it sounds like you still have nitric still in the mix or still too much chlorine. 

Have you tested this with stannous to see what reaction you get? 

If you have and you get a reaction does the reaction hold or does it dissapear on the tester? 

If it dissapears put 3 drops of solution on a plate and add 3 drops of water to dilute it and see if the test color holds.

You will probably have to add about 3 cups of water and boil down to about 3 cups of fluid to make sure that all your chlorine is out. But if you still have nitric in the mix you will have to do diffrently.


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## michelemalatesta (Mar 16, 2010)

When i do a test, the it turns brown and stays brown. I did not boil 3 times. do you think i still have nitric in the solution?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 16, 2010)

I would add about 3 cups of water like I said and boil this down to almost your original HCL amount to make sure you have the chlorine out and then see if it will drop the gold. You probably don't have to boil all the water out. If you are still having the problem and you have it boiled down and it still does not drop the gold out you might be able to add some urea to remove the nitiric. I wouldn't boil hard I would do a slow evaporation on it. I have learned paitence. And I don't mix the 2 process. HCL/nitirc----HCL/clorox. But that is just me.

Hope this helps.


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## qst42know (Mar 16, 2010)

If I remember correctly Steve mentioned a surplus of SMB will show a brown test.


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## leavemealone (Mar 16, 2010)

> When i do a test, the it turns brown and stays brown. I did not boil 3 times. do you think i still have nitric in the solution?


Testing is much different than precipitating with smb.With smb you are using sulfur to drop,and if chlorine or AR is still present then it will redissolve the gold.
However testing uses tin to displace the metals in solution,forcing everything out,that is why your test stays brown though you can't get the gold to drop.


> I would add about 3 cups of water like I said and boil this down to almost your original HCL amount to make sure you have the chlorine out and then see if it will drop the gold. You probably don't have to boil all the water out. If you are still having the problem and you have it boiled down and it still does not drop the gold out you might be able to add some urea to remove the nitiric.


Barren if he did not incinerate,then you are assuming what I am,which is....he still has nitrate residue on the foils and has created AR.The fastest way to address this would be to boil it down now while it is still concentrated.Then add Hcl to original level,dilute with H2o and try to precipitate.Ha ha ha I got one on you!Ok now whats the score?!!?!?
Johnny


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 16, 2010)

leavemealone said:


> > When i do a test, the it turns brown and stays brown. I did not boil 3 times. do you think i still have nitric in the solution?
> 
> 
> Testing is much different than precipitating with smb.With smb you are using sulfur to drop,and if chlorine or AR is still present then it will redissolve the gold.
> ...



Yep that is what I'm thinking is he is fighting the nitric. I can't remember about adding urea with clorx in the solution if it will do any good. When I use nitric that is what I use is urea. BUT I DON'T MIX THE PROCESSES WITHOUT PROPER ACTIONS.

ROFL, you have been here way longer than I have no way I will catch up to you. :mrgreen: 

Johnny uses nitric more than I do follow what his suggestion is on dealing with it.


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## qst42know (Mar 16, 2010)

michelemalatesta.

You won't get this straighted out till we get the straight story.

First post you said you started with AP. And went to HCL/Cl and heated for 2 days to drive off chlorine.

Second post you said you used nitric. And heated for 2 hours.

What is the real story?


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## leavemealone (Mar 16, 2010)

I had to read and reread that several times.I respond so many times that I guess I missed that one.Well I have a question.......michele are you and metalfish the same person?If so please refrain from posting using several accounts.It helps us more if we know not just the problem....but the person too.If you are not the same person,then continue and answer qst's questions.
Johnny


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 16, 2010)

leavemealone said:


> I had to read and reread that several times.I respond so many times that I guess I missed that one.Well I have a question.......michele are you and metalfish the same person?If so please refrain from posting using several accounts.It helps us more if we know not just the problem....but the person too.If you are not the same person,then continue and answer qst's questions.
> Johnny




ROFLMAO, That was great......... 8)


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## michelemalatesta (Mar 17, 2010)

No, I am not metalfish. I don't know who that is. I used nitric acid to dissolve the base metals. Someone asked me if i rinsed the nitric 3 times. Because i used clorox hcl, i assumed he was talking about when i dissolve the base metals. 

After letting the qtips sit overnight, the dark brown that I got last night did dissapear.

Before you explain to me how to fix this, do you know what i could have done wrong? It seems that everytime I process, I have the same results. Could it be that i'm using to much clorox? I also know that I used to much smb, when the brown kept dissapearing, i kept adding smb.


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## michelemalatesta (Mar 17, 2010)

Im sorry Barren, I missed your post. I just went back to re read . Thank you for your reply, I will do that now. Boil the solution down. I will let you know. 

Thanks again.
Michele


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## leavemealone (Mar 17, 2010)

Whoa whoa whoa.Hang on a minute! I asked you to answer qst's questions.We need more information about what you have already done....before we can give you accurate answers to the problems you are having.If you want us to help you,then you need to help us first.We can't diagnose a problem without first knowing exactly what was done to that point.Understand?I am not trying to be rude,I promise,but you completly avoided what I asked you to do,and proceeded to say you were going to boil it down.
Understand this,if you continue down this path,there is a good chance you will end up with more,and possibly worse,problems than you are having right now.If that happens you will have at least one person(me) that will hesitate to help you in the future.I do not speak for anyone else on the forum,but we frown on members asking for help then not doing what they were advised to do to fix the problem.


> I used nitric acid to dissolve the base metals. Someone asked me if i rinsed the nitric 3 times. Because i used clorox hcl, i assumed he was talking about when i dissolve the base metals.





> Before you explain to me how to fix this, do you know what i could have done wrong?


If it were me I would add zinc until everything dropped out and start over from scratch using only Hcl,however if you would like to salvage what you have started then...........
Lets start over from the beginning.You said you used nitric to dissolve the base metals.No problem.
(A)If you did not completly dissipate,or neutralize the excess nitric that was left on the foils then that is the first problem.
If you have urea,then let the solution cool to room tempurature,add just enough filtered water to bring the level back up to what you started with and add one or two balls of urea.Did the balls bubble or fizz? If so then you have unused nitric.If you do not have urea,then continue here.However if you do have urea and it did not fizz,or if you incinerated the foils before starting to make your auric chloride,then continue below at (C).
(B)If you have urea,then you need to add about 10 balls at a time,stir the solution once the balls have dissolve,and continue with this until the balls no longer fizz or bubble.If you do not have urea,you need to condense the solution by evaporating it and adding small amounts of Hcl to drive off the excess nitric.Considering the level of nitric is most likely very little I will only ask you to evaporate it once.If you had used AR you would need to evaporate more than this due to the higher ratio of nitric.Simply boil the solution(slowly) down to almost a syrup consistency.Make sure you do not boil it fast,if you do,you will more than likely burn the salts that will self precipitate during the evaporation process.After you have boiled the solution down,let it cool out in the open(NOT in the refridgerator or freezer)
for about 10 minutes.Then slowly add enough Hcl to bring the solution to the level that you started with,stirring slowly.
(C)At this point we will assume the only potential problem is the addition of too much salts from the smb.You will need to dilute the 1-1 with water,then decide how to precipitate.I would not suggest using smb again,seeing how you already have an abundance of added salts,I would suggest using copperas,2-1 and washing the powder very well.
If you still have a problem after using this advice it is possible your gold has bonded with the copper in solution,in which case you must drop everything with zinc and start over.Either way,keep us up to speed on your progress so we'll know what went wrong if you have another problem.
Johnny


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 17, 2010)

I'll 2nd that Johnny, there has been no direct answer to the questions that have been asked. Not going down a blind path here.


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## Oz (Mar 17, 2010)

He has copious quantities of SMB in HCl. Adding zinc can form hydrogen sulfide which is a poisonous gas. It is worth noting that after exposure to as little as 150 parts per million your olfactory nerve will be overwhelmed and you will no longer smell it. Exposure to over 700 parts per million can cause sudden death. For those not familiar with PPM (parts per million) and just how small that is, it works out to 1 part in 1,428.57 = 700 parts per million.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 17, 2010)

Stupid question here. How would you figure parts per million in a cubic foot of air, Or I guess how many millions in a cubic foot of air.


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## Oz (Mar 17, 2010)

I am not sure why you want this in cubic feet but there are 1,728 cubic inches in a cubic foot. Since 700 PPM is 1 part in 1,428.57 then 0.8267 cubic inches per cubic foot would be equal to 700PPM.


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## qst42know (Mar 17, 2010)

michelemalatesta said:


> No, I am not metalfish. I don't know who that is. I used nitric acid to dissolve the base metals. Someone asked me if i rinsed the nitric 3 times. Because i used clorox hcl, i assumed he was talking about when i dissolve the base metals.
> After letting the qtips sit overnight, the dark brown that I got last night did dissapear.
> Before you explain to me how to fix this, do you know what i could have done wrong? It seems that everytime I process, I have the same results. Could it be that i'm using to much clorox? I also know that I used to much smb, when the brown kept dissapearing, i kept adding smb.




Positive Gold test should be some shade of purple not brown. And it shouldn't disappear. I have a swab that sat outside all winter through rain and snow and sunshine and its still purple.

If you dissolved all the base metals and were left only with washed foils to digest in HCL/Cl your Gold test should range from a faint purple from a weak solution to black from a very concentrated solution. I'm not convinced your gold is still in solution.

Was your base metal digest complete? Only foils or flakes of gold remaining?

The spot tests on the left are positive for gold notice the inky purple stain in the well. The two on the right left no stain so no gold. All the spot tests are from the same dirty solution from a stripping cell experiment. 

The tatty swab was from last summer and is so weathered the cotton is falling to dust.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 17, 2010)

Oz said:


> I am not sure why you want this in cubic feet but there are 1,728 cubic inches in a cubic foot. Since 700 PPM is 1 part in 1,428.57 then 0.8267 cubic inches per cubic foot would be equal to 700PPM.



I was wanting it just for referance. just one of the few things I have never equated together PPM/cu ft.

And I figured you had the answer right at your fingers. 8) 

And I thought I would put my dunce hat on for a few minutes and act like a newbee.  

Thanks


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## leavemealone (Mar 18, 2010)

I had a very long reply typed,discussing the true dangers of H2s and the true figures on its hazards.But since I am such a safety stickler,I will not "play down" your figures.However I do want to add the following 



> (And Johnny please stop saying zinc. You don't test with it, and copper is a better choice (for a complete reset) to leave out more of any base metals present.)



I was not continuosly saying that,I only said that once and you know I made a simple mistake,which I have edited.But seeing how michele didn't head anything I said prior to my last post,I don't see how it mattered.Copper may be a better choice but I prefer zinc shavings.Gold does not precipitate on the shavings like it does on the copper.And I refuse to wait days for the same thing I can accomplish in minutes.I can live with washing the powder extra well.
Johnny


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## Oz (Mar 18, 2010)

Johnny,
I did not personally test the levels that you lose your sense of smell at or the fatality point. By all means be a stickler, I like constructive input! I look forward to your post. I got my numbers here; http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/815139-overview

To be clear, I am not saying you will definitely get poisoned or die because you put zinc into an HCl solution that has SMB added, but there is a risk. A lot of the risk is dependent of how nice of a lab setup you have such as a proper fume hood. Other than that it depends on if you are just feeling lucky.

As for the copper, one advantage is that it does not displace hydrogen per the electromotive series of elements like zinc does, therefor you avoid the risk of hydrogen sulfide forming.


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## leavemealone (Mar 18, 2010)

No Oz,I need to go to bed.I had a rough day and I took what you said the wrong way.I know I did,because you and I are friends and I know you would never say anything derogatory to me,but thats the way I took it.Please don't apologize,you didn't do anything wrong.I have been helping a member almost all day and I am just beat and I took it the wrong way.I guess I owe you an apology,Im sorry.I'm gonna go crawl in bed and get ready for tomorrow.
Have a good night bud.
Johnny
Talk to you guys tomorrow.(night barren)


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

leavemealone said:


> No Oz,I need to go to bed.I had a rough day and I took what you said the wrong way.I know I did,because you and I are friends and I know you would never say anything derogatory to me,but thats the way I took it.Please don't apologize,you didn't do anything wrong.I have been helping a member almost all day and I am just beat and I took it the wrong way.I guess I owe you an apology,Im sorry.I'm gonna go crawl in bed and get ready for tomorrow.
> Have a good night bud.
> Johnny
> Talk to you guys tomorrow.(night barren)




Night man, hope your day goes better tomorrow. I'm just finishing the night up myself from depalting some pentium pros. What a day.


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## leavemealone (Mar 18, 2010)

> I'm just finishing the night up myself from depalting some pentium pros.


Good morning baby (holding coffee cup up)lol.
Deplating pros huh?Do you have a lot of them?I got a couple the other day from a municipality sale,along with some quite rare mil-spec LSI's with 2 triangles,instead of the usual 1.I think I am going to research another forum that I am on and see if anyone wants to buy them for collector value.
Ok well heading off to work in a minute so I'll wrap this up.
Talk to you guys later.
Johnny


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

leavemealone said:


> > I'm just finishing the night up myself from depalting some pentium pros.
> 
> 
> Good morning baby (holding coffee cup up)lol.
> ...



Coffee is up to you too. AHHHHH the breakfast of champions.
Yea I had 50 of them to do. I got about half of them done last night. I was trying just to deplate the heat sink on them but it also deplated a lot of the connector pins. I'm still going to have to run them in some HCL to finish them up. I came close to putting them on Ebay but I needed to process them for the yield results for future info.
Hope you have a better day today.


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## michelemalatesta (Mar 18, 2010)

March 16th, 2010, 6:06 pm by Barren Realms 007
Re: help please gold will not drop
michelemalatesta wrote:
Ok,

I used 2 batches,

1st one had mostly gold plated pins 1 lb. after the nitric treatment filtering and rinsing ..I added 2 cups of muriatic acid and 1 1/2 cups of clorox, I then added 2 tsps of smb, i saw the brown and then it dissapeared. I then heated it for a couple more hours. I then added the smb again. Nothing happened. The solution just turned a light yellow.

If you started with 1 lb of pins you might have 2 grams of gold there.

Did you incenerate after the nitric treatment?

Did you boil with water 3 times after the nitric treatment?

2 cups of HCL and 1-1/2 cup of clorox.

Did you add the clorox in small increments or a lot at a time? How long of a time did it take you to add the clorox?
Im sorry I thought you said to boil it down the add water. I did answer your questins I thought,,I'm getting confused with all of the posts. Here are the answers to your questions.

You can disolve an oz of gold in about 5-6ounces of HCL/CL mix, you have roughly 28 oz of fluid you are working with. Keep your fluids to a mini
Did you dilute this with water? If so this adds even more fluid you are dealing with 

Answer: No I did not dilute the solution


Sorry to get off track, to answer your question it sounds like you still have nitric still in the mix or still too much chlorine.

Have you tested this with stannous to see what reaction you get?
If you have and you get a reaction does the reaction hold or does it dissapear on the tester? 

Answer: It did hold but when I checked the next day, it dissapeared.



If it dissapears put 3 drops of solution on a plate and add 3 drops of water to dilute it and see if the test color holds.

Answer: I did thata and again it holds but in the morning the brown was gone



You will probably have to add about 3 cups of water and boil down to about 3 cups of fluid to make sure that all your chlorine is out. But if you still have nitric in the mix you will have to do diffrently.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok, 

You said you haven't diluted this. How much fluid do you still have in the container. If you haven't diluted this and you still have about the 3-1/2 cups you started with then I'm going to say that you still have chlorine in the mix with the reaction that you are getting during your test.

Bring the solution to just under a boil and evaporate it till you have 3 cups and test.

Do you by any chance have some urea. If you have some regular fertalier in bag look inside of it and get one of the white pellets and drop one in the solution before you heat this and see if you get a fizzling reaction. If you don't have this then heat and test.


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## qst42know (Mar 18, 2010)

> 1st one had mostly gold plated pins 1 lb. after the nitric treatment filtering and rinsing ..



What did you have at this point and approximately how much solids? 

Don't get stuck on the estimate of 2g per pound. Depending on which type of pins you processed you may have far less.


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## michelemalatesta (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok I will do that, I will have to check and see if i have fertilizer. I'm looking for the white pellets. 

I have a couple questions if you don't mind. Yes I am reading hokes book but I'm just trying to understand what is happening here. 

When I use the nitric acid to dissolve the base metals, that solution is a nitrate? correct? 

If i were to use nitric acid and hcl that solution it is a nitrate until i boil all of the solution and then it becomes a chlorine of some sort? 
Based on what metals are in the solution?


Now you said if there is copper in the solution, the gold will cling to the copper,,,Does that depend on how much copper is in the solution?

When I am dissolving the base metals in Nitric acid the ph is up?

What about when I am using an aqua regia? 

I have had alot of problems when I use nitrc acid instead of hcl cl, Is there a certain kind of glass that I can use to boil down? I have broken about 3 glass pyrex dishes and now I'm gun shy. 

Im trying to grasp what is going on with each process so that when something goes wrong, I have a little understanding on what is happening. 

I'll be back in hoke book tonight.

Thank you for your help and please bear with me, Im trying to really have an understanding here. Its all very overwhelming. I read posts and a little bit of the book and think i got it until i get outside and have the solution in front of me.


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## qst42know (Mar 18, 2010)

Hello Johnny

Forgive my earlier post about zinc (gone now). No malice intended.

Johnny and Barren you guys keep giving these long winded processes and michelemalatesta just seems determined to pick and chose only bits and pieces. 

We all are just trying to help but I don't believe you are going to get anywhere providing too many choices and getting too few answers.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

qst42know said:


> Hello Johnny
> 
> Forgive my earlier post about zinc (gone now). No malice intended.
> 
> ...



I'm trying to shorten it by taking small steps insted of the whole process now and hopefully he can be guided thru this. 8)


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

> Ok I will do that, I will have to check and see if i have fertilizer. I'm looking for the white pellets.



Yes that is correct the white ones.



> I have a couple questions if you don't mind. Yes I am reading hokes book but I'm just trying to understand what is happening here.
> 
> When I use the nitric acid to dissolve the base metals, that solution is a nitrate? correct?



AS far as I know yes.



> If i were to use nitric acid and hcl that solution it is a nitrate until i boil all of the solution and then it becomes a chlorine of some sort?



Incorrect, when you mix the HCL/nitric it make a chlorine that attacks the gold. You do not have to boil it just mixing them together completes the solution to disolve the gold and any other base metals. 

If you heat the solution it will put everything from platinum down in the food chain into the solution. 

If you have even the slightes bit of nitric on the gold you have disolved the base metals with when you add HCL you will disolve some gold. That is the reason for the washes in water and the steps taken to clean any residue of the nitric



> Based on what metals are in the solution?



Nope metals in the solution have nothing to do with what the HCL/Nitric does when it is mixed. Don't jump the gun here follow me...




> Now you said if there is copper in the solution, the gold will cling to the copper,,,Does that depend on how much copper is in the solution?



Lets say you are disolving some base metals in your nitric. You have a saturated solution of copper with gold flakes, or gold specks. lets say you use a spatulata to stir another solution of HCL. You dip the tool in water and think it is washed off. But low and behold it is not and poof you have just disolved some of your gold. But it is such a small amount that you can't detect it. Now that small amount of disolved gold is going to try to percipitate out, either as a small brown speck or if you have enough gold disolved it will try to plate onto some of the copper floating around in the solution and make it look like a larger piece of gold.

Anything that can develop chlorine in nitiric can have the possability of disolving gold. Even tap water to an extent.
Anything that can develop chlorine in HCL can have the same effect.



> When I am dissolving the base metals in Nitric acid the ph is up?
> 
> What about when I am using an aqua regia?



Same thing. A base will change it, like soda ash, ash from a fire place, caustic soda. But not mixing HCL/nitric.



> I have had alot of problems when I use nitrc acid instead of hcl cl, Is there a certain kind of glass that I can use to boil down? I have broken about 3 glass pyrex dishes and now I'm gun shy.



Use a coffee pot. Or put your pyrex dish inside of another dish with sand in it to keep from heat shocking the glass. If you take you dish from the burner and put it on a cold surface you have the chance of breaking it as well because of themal shock.



> Im trying to grasp what is going on with each process so that when something goes wrong, I have a little understanding on what is happening.



Hey thats no problem I was just thinking today that I'm coming upon a year being on here and one of my first questions was "How do I drop silver from HCL". :roll: Everyone has to learn.



> I'll be back in hoke book tonight.
> 
> Thank you for your help and please bear with me, Im trying to really have an understanding here. Its all very overwhelming. I read posts and a little bit of the book and think i got it until i get outside and have the solution in front of me.



When it starts clicking for you, you will see it really isn't that hard.


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## leavemealone (Mar 18, 2010)

> Johnny and Barren you guys keep giving these long winded processes and michelemalatesta just seems determined to pick and chose only bits and pieces.



Sorry chris.I get so wrapped up in my explanations that I forget that I need to "simplify" things a bit.
And thnx for the PM I know you didn't mean anything by it,I just needed to sleep off a bad day after trying to help a newby all day,and they just could not grasp most of the info.Anyways its in the past brother.
Ok now to eat and hit the bed.
Night guys.Talk to ya tomorrow.
Johnny


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