# 999.99 silver?



## Mmon2616 (May 4, 2014)

I am searching for a way to get my silver as pure as possible. I cemented my silver from fixer solution that was only used for a week and had about 250 pieces of industrial radiography film ran through it. So far I have 243.7 grams of cemented silver. I want to get it as pure as possible. I have read a few was to do this but I wanted any suggestions before I move forward if possible. Luckily I have another week or so before I get my fist huge batch of fixer and film so I can practice. Thanks for your time and knowledge.


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## butcher (May 4, 2014)

Mmon2616,
I am not the one to help you with this question.

How are you recovering the silver from solution?

The silver from the fixer should be very pure (without other base metals), how you recover it, or cement it can be an important part of how pure your silver will be.

Iron and silver in a melt does not form an amalgam.

GSP and Juan Manuel Arcos Frank's post will be very helpful in your study in this area.
I have done very little with recovery of silver from film so I would not be much help.


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## solar_plasma (May 4, 2014)

Read the first text link1, I gave you in your other silver thread, a couple (or even more) of times until you concept the causal relations. In fact, this text gives a basic knowledge about what conditions will yield pure silver. Given you have the same kinds of contaminants, you should even be able to calculate how pure your silver will be after the treatment, based on those empirical data.

Since, like butcher already said, your source already might be very pure, I am pretty sure it will work this way. The main source of contaminants might come from your process, the chemicals you use, the metal you used for cementing, cleanliness and diligence under all work inclusively melting and your skills in melting silver.

I am not an expert, but this is, what I have learned since I've joined the forum. Any correction is welcome.

1Refining electrolysis of secondary silver alloys: http://www.ams.tuke.sk/data/ams_online/2005/number1/mag10/mag10.pdf


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## solar_plasma (May 4, 2014)

Sorry, wrong link!

...look here: http://de.scribd.com/doc/46524126/Refining-Electrolysis-of-the-Secondary-Silver-Alloys


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## Mmon2616 (May 4, 2014)

I am using Zinc Dust Reagent. I know that fixer is supposed to have just silver in it but working in the industrial radiography industry I know that's not the case. They are constantly working with carbon steel,stainless, and chrome and I know it contaminates the Fixer and developer. Even in an automatic processor I would assume they same. I have read through so e of the links like I said. I was just wanted to see if anyone had a suggestion that may help a newbie. Lol. Even though I read some things I still am hesitant because I don't want to make many mistakes. That's all. Thanks you guys.


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## Mmon2616 (May 4, 2014)

Also I've seen some people talk about filters from fax machines but I don't have one I can tear apart. Is there somewhere I can buy the filter? Will an Office Depot of office supply store have them? They aren't open today that's why I ask instead of call them. As you guys know that filter silver at home that had been in fixer a lot seems to go through most coffee filters.


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## Mmon2616 (May 6, 2014)

Just received 42 liters of fixer and 84 liters of developer. Bought some super expensive filters for dirt cheap. Tested my fixer with copper wire as I read on this forum. Wire was coated completely within 1.5 seconds. Thanks for all the help I have received. I learn something new everyday and I will continue to read. Thanks GRF.


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## butcher (May 6, 2014)

It sounds like you are on your way to that goal post, I am just cheering you on.


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## goldsilverpro (May 6, 2014)

You're dreaming about getting silver as pure as 999.99 Fine (also called 5 nines) from a home refining setup. Even 999.9 Fine (4 nines) is quite difficult. It can be done with a silver cell but your setup would have to be perfect and you would really have to know what you are doing. In the trade, anything 999 Fine (3 nines), or better, is considered to be pure silver. 

The U.S., American Silver Eagle is 3 nines. The Canadian Silver Maple Leaf is 4 nines.

The purity is written several ways. Fineness is defined as parts per thousand.

3 nines, or 3N = 999 Fine = 99.9% Pure = .999 (decimal equivalent of the percentage)
3 nines 5, or 3N5 = 999.5 Fine = 99.95% pure = .9995
4 nines, or 4N = 999.9 Fine = 99.99% Pure = .9999
5 nines, or 5N = 999.99 Fine = 99.999% Pure = .99999
6 nines, or 6N = 999.999 Fine = 99.999% Pure = .999999

An ounce of 6 nines silver would probably cost at least as much as an ounce of pure gold. The 5 nines silver wire and sheet I found on the internet sold from 2 to 6 times the silver spot.


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## Mmon2616 (May 7, 2014)

Yeah. From what I've read it is pretty hard to do. (.999) . You have to almost be a true laboratory. I know it will be hard to do but I'm going to try. I read and research everyday on this forum,books, and other forums. I'm going to try to build a lab within the next year or so and learn as much as I can. I know to most on here it seems impossible for a noob like me to figure IT out. It's ok though. It's my money and no one else's. I will do my darnedest to be one of the best. I'm as persistent as they come. I read all over this thread " read this, read that" and I do. I also understand why. Sometimes it's better to ask to make sure before proceeding. I may ask a stupid question before I think. But I always look bad and say " that was realllly stupid. But if I never asked I wouldn't know. Maybe that's because I'm an idiot or just stupid in moments. It's not because I wanted to offend anyone. It's because I don't know and I want to learn. No matter how stupid the question if it were my friend or kid I do whatever it takes to make sure they know what and why they did something wrong. By no means would I out them down or treat them any less than me. End the end no matter what you know you still aren't any better than the next person. I apologize for any other stupid question I may post. There's one thing we all have in common and it's the love and passion for Refining!! Hope you all have an amazing tomorrow everyday.


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## solar_plasma (May 7, 2014)

There are two kinds of questions. Nobody feels annoyed by the second kind. You have a nice source of silver and you read as much you can. Don't feel scared asking, once you have done your part reading and trying to understand. But also the annoying questions are mostly answered correctly, it's just more likely, that the answer is not, what the operator likes to hear. If I would ask about cyanide process, expressing I would want to use it and the others have an impression of "my" laboratory is not suitable for this process, I would surely hear some definite instructions to let it be. The more, if I seem to not understand. I would be thankful for that, even if they should be wrong. Normally, they aren't.

I do not answer my kids every question, if I know, it will not help them. But then I might help them to help themselves. Maybe this is not, what they'd asked for, but what will help them. And those are kids, most people here are adults. From adults I personally would expect even more self discipline and providence.

It is of no matter of who is better. I know, I know nothing about refining compared to the mods and many others. I know, you know nothing about refining compared to what you will know after some month. And I know, you have got a sense for this already now. So, don't feel bad. Not all of us are as good at finding the sweetest words to tell somebody, when he is way off. We can only try.

I have given you some links, which had helped ME a lot. I myself have found them in the forum and elsewhere after a lot of searching and reading. I do not need to do so. I just try to give some help back to the community.


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## GotTheBug (May 7, 2014)

12 posts and I'm the first one to correct the decimal point? Am I really that OCD today?


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## g_axelsson (May 7, 2014)

Yes you are, I'm counting thousands, not percent. 8) 

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2014)

GotTheBug said:


> 12 posts and I'm the first one to correct the decimal point? Am I really that OCD today?


He didn't state whether the 5 nines was in fineness or percentage. But, the way he wrote it in the title, 999.99, it could only be fineness, which is parts per thousand. I assumed fineness in my post. If he meant percent, then he was in error and should be corrected.


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## GotTheBug (May 8, 2014)

Another nugget in the knowledge vault. 

Thank You again guys!


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## Lou (May 8, 2014)

Electrolytically refine the 3N5-4N silver off of film and it should be 5N.


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## rickbb (May 8, 2014)

Mmon2616 said:


> I am using Zinc Dust Reagent. I know that fixer is supposed to have just silver in it but working in the industrial radiography industry I know that's not the case. They are constantly working with carbon steel,stainless, and chrome and I know it contaminates the Fixer and developer. Even in an automatic processor I would assume they same. I have read through so e of the links like I said. I was just wanted to see if anyone had a suggestion that may help a newbie. Lol. Even though I read some things I still am hesitant because I don't want to make many mistakes. That's all. Thanks you guys.



X-ray film is x-ray film, I don't see how what is being x-rayed would contaminate the film chemistry during development. The film is normally held in a cartridge type of container to block out stray daylight so the film would not be in contact with anything, (other than the x-ray particles). It's then taken to the dark room taken out of the holder and fed into the processer to be developed. 

Your biggest containment is going to be some zinc due to drag down, especially if you over used it. Once all the silver is displaced the excess zinc has nothing to do so it's sitting there mixed in with the silver powder. Use only as much zinc as you have silver in the fix, (that's hard to calculate without some trial runs and good record keeping of your process and yields). After a few goes at it you will have a better idea of yield and how much zinc powder to use.

If you are going to be getting fix on a regular basis, you could setup an electrolytic recovery unit instead of using zinc displacement, then you could be getting better than 99.7% before you go to a Thum or Moebius cell. They aren't cheap but if this is going to be an on-going thing, well worth looking into. 

In checking the melt/boiling temps of zinc and silver, zinc boils at 907 C, pure silver at 2210 C, I suppose it's possible to bring the washed and dried powder up to 950 C and hold it until the zinc is boiled off leaving behind only the silver. Silver melt point is 962 C so in theory that would get rid of the zinc and leave the silver behind. (Or I could be off my rocker, which has been suggested more than once in my life.) :lol:


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## Anonymous (May 8, 2014)

I've got to ask the question why you are trying to refine to this purity in the first place? What do you hope to achieve by doing so? This is a genuine question because the costs in time and materials doing so will outweigh the benefits unless you have some specific agenda.

Regards

Jon


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## Mmon2616 (May 9, 2014)

Goldsilverpro I did mean fineness. I apologize I put the decimal in the wrong place. I agree and understand Solar. I also understand that reaching that fineness would not be the best thing if I were only counting on profit. It's really a simple answer. I just want to try. I'm not saying I will, or it will happen anytime soon. I just want to reach the highest purity I can possibly get most precious metals. With everything I've been reading I grow that much more interested. I have so much silver available to me for free (except for processing materials) that it will basically pay for itself. It's going to be a slow process but I will remain persistent.


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## Mmon2616 (May 9, 2014)

Rickbb. Actually I was an industrial radiographer trainer. Around here the technician loads the film in either a cardboard type cassette or a cloth cassette (usually referred to as sock cassette). They are supposed to wear gloves but it is very hard to separate each film as you load it by hand. In industrial xray we do not use hard cassettes. The cassette had to be able to bend around pipe and other structures. It is then put on a stainless steel rack that punches small holes in the top and bottom so it holds the film in place. These racks eventually corrode. They are xraying many different metals. They touch the pipe and welds with our hands them go in the darkroom to develop. Not to mention all of the other junk that's dropped in. An automatic processor is less likely to have these issues but still has hand loaded cassettes . No racks involved. I have no idea about medical xray. I'm sure being that it's normally done inside a hospital or Doctors office it shouldn't be as contaminated. I'm almost certain it also won't be as concentrated because they probably want their fixer as fresh as possible. Xray hands never want to change theirs. Until it stops running film do to saturation. Yes this is a long term situation. I will be getting fixer from two different NDT companies every month so far. Hopefully at least one more.


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## Anonymous (May 9, 2014)

Thanks Mmon, I get where you're going with this now and understand. 8) 

Jon


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## goldsilverpro (May 9, 2014)

Mmon2616 said:


> Goldsilverpro I did mean fineness. I apologize I put the decimal in the wrong place. I agree and understand Solar. I also understand that reaching that fineness would not be the best thing if I were only counting on profit. It's really a simple answer. I just want to try. I'm not saying I will, or it will happen anytime soon. I just want to reach the highest purity I can possibly get most precious metals. With everything I've been reading I grow that much more interested. I have so much silver available to me for free (except for processing materials) that it will basically pay for itself. It's going to be a slow process but I will remain persistent.



If you meant fineness, parts per thousand, the decimal point was in the right place. 999.99 is nine hundred ninety nine point nine nine Fine.


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## Mmon2616 (May 10, 2014)

This is from 1/4 of the 42 liters of fixer solution I received. Agfa film and fixer. I am waiting on my zinc to get here Monday to do the remainder. I also have the developer and stop bath to process. Also Agfa.


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## rickbb (May 10, 2014)

The devloper does not have silver in it. Devloper just turns the exposed silver black, the fix strips the unexposed off, which is what you recover. The stop may have a very small amount, but generally not enough to bother with.


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## Mmon2616 (May 14, 2014)

Thanks rickkbb. I appreciate the advice. The developer stop bath and rinse waters are in the same tank. I recovered a little out of it. I assume it was from the stop and from whatever was was on the film that for in the rinse.


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## Palladium (Jun 19, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqH4ZvRIZxI


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