# Catalytic Converter Refining



## arsenic123 (Mar 12, 2014)

Hey guys I have been in this forum from quite long time and I will be processing honeycomb catalytic converter petrol and Diesel type. I have studied "Matthew Wang China catalytic converter refining book" and already started reading C.M Hoke book and I will be ordering Lasersteve CD soon through my uncle located in US since Steve doesn't ship in India so that I can practically see how to work on honeycomb. Anyways according to Matthew Wang China catalytic converter refining book the process is described as ...
1) Collecting the honeycomb
2) Decanning the cats
3) Grinding
4) Incineration with Electric oven
5) The Wet Chemical chemical a.k.a solvent extraction, or SX.
6) At the end of the above procedure one will have ionised solution in which both the platinum and palladium ions are held in suspension.
7) Finally precipitation.

Now I have two questions. The book says "The same applies to C/C refining. Although you can only reduce by a negligible amount the actual physical mass, incineration is necessary to get rid of the unburnt hydrocarbons, and sulphur that they contain, which would interfere with the leaching process that follows the grinding and roasting of your PGM bearing materials." It says do the incineration with electric oven. I have electric oven so no issues. 

Secondly it says at precipitation stage "You will need a concentrated solution; try to dissolve as much ammonium chloride as possible into a small quantity of hot distilled water (a cupful, say). Bring your aqua regia back to almost boiling point, and pour the ammonium chloride slowly into it, stirring as you go When you see a colour change taking place, stir well, and leave to settle. The platinum will precipitate as a bright orange powder, which is ammonium chloroplatinate. Wash this powder onto a filtered funnel, and
allow it to dry completely." 

Now i want to ask is it necessary to roast the honeycomb in oven or just burn it to remove the sulphur, carbon, etc. What if I directly use "The Wet Chemical chemical a.k.a solvent extraction, or SX". Will it affect the recovery?
Finally is it important to us distilled water and not tap water? will it affect any recovery? The method to remove PT, PT from petrol and Diesel is same, correct?

I will keep updating my status as I go on with pictures if possible. 

Thanks guys.


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## butcher (Mar 12, 2014)

These are just my thoughts on the subject.
Sulfur and its compounds are not easily burnt off, you will need to get the temperature up to a roasting heat, and have a good supply of oxygen or air, ground up powders will need stirring and good exposure while red hot, temperatures of around 800 deg F or 430 deg C will be needed and the heat held there until the sulfides are burnt off as the toxic and stinking SO2 gas, can your oven do this?
The hydrocarbons will burn of easier.
You will be producing toxic fumes, you will need to be careful of these.

The oxidizing roasting process can be done over another heat source.
Even on something as simple as a charcoal fire.
An electric oven would not be my choice unless it was designed to do this process industrially.

With chloride leaching I would not worry about using a water source other than distilled water as long as the water is potable (drinkable) and not too contaminated, tap water will work.

Read up on the forum, while waiting for you video, using the search on Laser Steve's web site, and the forum search button you can try different words to get different results, you can also add an author like Laser Steve, and find results on the topic that way, you will also find that there are different chemical processes that can be used to leach the PGM, like Aqua Regia, HCl/NaClO (bleach), and HCl/ 32% H2O2.

keep us posted on your progress.


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## arsenic123 (Mar 13, 2014)

butcher said:


> These are just my thoughts on the subject.
> Sulfur and its compounds are not easily burnt off, you will need to get the temperature up to a roasting heat, and have a good supply of oxygen or air, ground up powders will need stirring and good exposure while red hot, temperatures of around 800 deg F or 430 deg C will be needed and the heat held there until the sulfides are burnt off as the toxic and stinking SO2 gas, can your oven do this?
> The hydrocarbons will burn of easier.
> You will be producing toxic fumes, you will need to be careful of these.
> ...



I do have a oven which I am not using. Its simple oven with Grill, Microwave, convection (all in one). I am planning to use it (Grilling). I will be using it only for say 2 KG first. Once I recover any PT and PD I will go for another source to roast it for bulk quantity. Since I am on trial I guess I can use oven. I also have a garage on my backyard so I wont be doing it inside my house. 
For leaching I will first us Aqua reiga because I am very much comfortable with Aqua reiga and have all the chemicals at my disposal and see f I can get any recovery. I will definitely use all the methods one by one as I go on. There are different chemical process that can be used to leach just like you said above but that is because the material is different many time in respect of type, quality, etc. But I suppose catalytic converters are uniform almost everywhere so there has to be some way in which someone must have got maximum recovery from any one process describe above. Any idea on that? Maybe Lasersteve CD will help me on that. Which process did he use in hid CD? 
By the way recovery for petrol and diesel converter (honeycomb) is same, right?
I will keep you posted as I go on. 

Thank you very much.


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## butcher (Mar 13, 2014)

With catalytic converter Honey comb the PGM are not a thick metal so the HCl sodium hypochlorite (bleach) process will work well for that material, I believe this is probably what will be on Steve's video, maybe someone will confirm or correct me on that, Aqua Regia is fine as long as you understand how to use it to recover your values from the leach.


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## kurtak (Mar 13, 2014)

butcher said:


> With catalytic converter Honey comb the PGM are not a thick metal so the HCl sodium hypochlorite (bleach) process will work well for that material, I believe this is probably what will be on Steve's video, maybe someone will confirm or correct me on that, Aqua Regia is fine as long as you understand how to use it to recover your values from the leach.



Yes Steve's video uses HCL/bleach to leach the PGMs from the "whole" combs - zinc is then used to cement the PGMs from solution (so that is a "recovery" process) - AR is then used to "refine" the PGMs --- He does use an AR leach on beads (ceramic beads from a bead type converter)

Kurt


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## nickvc (Mar 13, 2014)

Butcher I'm not sure if hydrochloric and bleach will work if there's Rh in the converters, I know not all contain Rh but some do, your better at the chemistry side so I'm sure you will know the answer to this.


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## kurtak (Mar 13, 2014)

nickvc said:


> Butcher I'm not sure if hydrochloric and bleach will work if there's Rh in the converters, I know not all contain Rh but some do, your better at the chemistry side so I'm sure you will know the answer to this.



Nick - yes the HCL/bleach leach will get the Rh also because it is so finely divided in the wash coat - it takes days to leach the PGMs out of CATs & that is true whether you use AR or HCL/bleach & you want to keep the leaching warm (120 - 140 degrees F) If using HCL/bleach for your leach you need to do regular bleach additions during the leaching process due to the CL evaporating off

Kurt


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## niteliteone (Mar 13, 2014)

arsenic123 said:


> (snip)
> I do have a oven which I am not using. Its simple oven with Grill, Microwave, convection (all in one). I am planning to use it (Grilling). I will be using it only for say 2 KG first. Once I recover any PT and PD I will go for another source to roast it for bulk quantity. Since I am on trial I guess I can use oven.


Just to be certain and clear :shock: 
The oven/grill... will *never* have food cooked in it again :?: 

Once it is exposed to the fumes /gasses from roasting any metals, ores or any PM containing materials it is contaminated with toxins that can injure or kill anyone that eats the food cooked in it, forever :shock: . 
This includes any BBQ grills :roll:


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## arsenic123 (Mar 13, 2014)

Thank you so much guys for the reply. I suppose I will wait for the CD then. I do use AR solution to extract gold and I am very much comfortable with it but since this is a different type of material I suppose I should see the the Steve video and avoid "OVEN" 
Thanks guys. I will upload photos also so that anyone who want to process catalytic converter can refer this topic. I searched a lot on forums but didn't find the process from start to end. I suppose I can make that in this thread and hopefully new comers can see it.

Thank you very much for the inputs. Waiting for the CD now....


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## arsenic123 (Mar 13, 2014)

niteliteone said:


> arsenic123 said:
> 
> 
> > (snip)
> ...



Yes I am actually prepared to discard it later  Thanks


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## butcher (Mar 13, 2014)

I have done very little with catalytic converters, besides several pounds of material, I cannot seem to get the catalytic converters locally.

For Rhodium in the catalyst, because of the rhodium metals resistance to attack, the metal being quite resistant even with aqua regia @ 150 deg C. If I was to try to get the metal into solution, I would be looking into a KHSO4 potassium bisulfate fusion (after leaching for Pt, Pd), to make a water soluble rhodium sulfate salt Rh2(SO4)3.

You may get some into solution with the chloride leach (including aqua regia), because of the finely divided state of the metal in the catalyst. A test sample with a bisulfate fusion could also be used to see if Rh was remaining after the chloride leaching process.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 14, 2014)

For roasting or incineration to get rid of carbon residues you need something that can reach a red glowing heat inside.
A normal household oven never reaches those temperatures as it is seldom needed to reduce a steak down to ashes in cooking.

My grandma tried it once and had to repaint the bottom floor of her house afterwards.

Göran


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## arsenic123 (Mar 15, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> For roasting or incineration to get rid of carbon residues you need something that can reach a red glowing heat inside.
> A normal household oven never reaches those temperatures as it is seldom needed to reduce a steak down to ashes in cooking.
> 
> My grandma tried it once and had to repaint the bottom floor of her house afterwards.
> ...



I won't be using it. I will be going according to the process described in Steve cd. I have read it somewhere in the forum that he used bucket heater. Thank you for the information.


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## niteliteone (Mar 15, 2014)

I always use an All Glass Aquarium heater to keep the solution warm.


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## arsenic123 (Mar 16, 2014)

niteliteone said:


> I always use an All Glass Aquarium heater to keep the solution warm.



Thank you for the information. I will surely use the above information and keep you guys posted once I start the process.

Thank you


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## pgms4me (Mar 16, 2014)

I have done cats in the past. I found it best to remove hydrocarbons and sulpher contaminents in a small industrial roasting oven. As previously stated in a previous post 800 degrees f is the minimum proper roasting temperature,but better at 1100 degrees f. Standard household ovens never go above 550 or 600f. That will not work on badly contaminated cats. i roasted my combs whole before crushing them for 2-3 hours at 1100f. My oven had a top vent that I connected to a 2 inch steel pipe vented to the outside.


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## arsenic123 (Apr 6, 2014)

Hey guys finally I got Steve CD. I started watching it and its very informative I must say. Yes, Steve does use HCL/bleach to leach the PGMs from the "whole" combs and HCL/Nitric for pallet type. He doesn't grill, incinerate, grind or bake the honeycomb. I was amazed. I thought incineration is most important part and he actually leeched it without even grinding or roasting. I do have a few whole cats but most of my cats are in powder form so I will have to try the same method on my powder form. I am not sure if I can get the same result from powder form. I will go as per Steve CD but I am not getting clorox in my area. I am looking for some alternate to clorox. 
http://www.snowchemindustries.in/liquid ... uid-bleach
or any bleach from this page?
http://dir.indiamart.com/cgi/catprdsear ... avi+mumbai

Will it affect the recovery? even on clorox website there are many option like for household, cleaning and dis infecting, toiler and bath, etc. 

http://www.clorox.com/products?show=bathroom
http://www.clorox.com/products?show=laundry

Anyways any tips to get going on powder catalytic converter? I have just roasted on normal temperature. I got it in that form. I didn't roast it. I bought it from someone. 
P.S Thank you niteliteone for the tip on "All Glass Aquarium heater". It can be used as a substitute for bucket heater. By the way bucket heater is cheap here. only $5-$8. So that can be arranged too. 

Finally : I guess I will do the whole comb without grinding, incineration or roasting just like in Steve CD. Secondly I will do the powder cats with AR process too. I will start it once I get the substitute of Clorox. Thank you. will keep you all posted.


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## nickvc (Apr 6, 2014)

Look for sodium hypochlorite or a bleach with no additives which can cause you problems, strong bleach is used in daries for sanitisation so check the suppliers for dairy bleach.


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## arsenic123 (Apr 6, 2014)

nickvc said:


> Look for sodium hypochlorite or a bleach with no additives which can cause you problems, strong bleach is used in daries for sanitisation so check the suppliers for dairy bleach.



Thank you for the reply. Can this be used?
http://dir.indiamart.com/impcat/liquid-bleach.html

One of the description says "It is highly safe to be added in drinking water to make it germ free." I am not sure if its concentrated or without any additives.
http://www.snowchemindustries.in/sodium-hypochlorite-chemicals.html 

I also had a chat with someone and he said I will have to make it and its not ready. I am not sure about that too. 

Thank you.


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## nickvc (Apr 6, 2014)

The first link seems to have what you want simple liquid bleach but make sure it's not coloured or perfumed, you could also look for sodium hypochlorite crystals. Bear in mind this is for making chlorine gas which is dangerous so add slowly,carefully and under a fume hood.


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## arsenic123 (Apr 6, 2014)

nickvc said:


> The first link seems to have what you want simple liquid bleach but make sure it's not coloured or perfumed, you could also look for sodium hypochlorite crystals. Bear in mind this is for making chlorine gas which is dangerous so add slowly,carefully and under a fume hood.




Thank you very much. So basically I will go to the hardware store and buy a bleach bottle, carboy or bottle which is basically free from any color, perfume and other additives and bleach color should be white or colorless. Thank you very much.


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## arsenic123 (Apr 10, 2014)

Hey guys I had gone to a shop to buy clorox but I didn't get that brand but I am being a bottle which says chlorine free bleach for white clothes, etc. Will that work??
I can easily get this.. 
http://www.rin.in/rin-ala

The ingrediants is Sodium Hypochlorite - 4%
sidium hydroxide
amino oxide 1 %
Etc. 

I suppose Sodium Hypochlorite is an important ingredient but its only 4%. So just wanted to confirm.

Thank you.


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## nickvc (Apr 11, 2014)

Sodium hypochlorite is what you need to make the chlorine to dissolve the values and if it's in too high a ratio it's wasted as it gases off.


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## arsenic123 (Apr 11, 2014)

Actually I am getting house belach only. The link above is used be housewifves for cleaning clothes but its the ingredients written as were.. 
Sodium Hypochlorite - 4%
sidium hydroxide
amino oxide 1 %

Now I had a talk with another guy. He supply to the laundry. I asked him the Sodium Hypochlorite percentage and he told me its 10%.
He also told me its plain bleach with Sodium Hypochlorite with a strength of 10%. Its the cheapest one only $2 per liter because he doesn't use any packaging or bottle. He sells loose.


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## arsenic123 (Apr 11, 2014)

Hey guys just bought the bleach from a laundry guy. The colour is infact light yellow. Will this work good?? 
Thanks


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## Ian_B (Apr 11, 2014)

Does it contain Sodium Hypochlorite?


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## arsenic123 (Apr 12, 2014)

Ian_B said:


> Does it contain Sodium Hypochlorite?


 Yes. The percentage is 10% as stated by the seller.


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## solar_plasma (Apr 12, 2014)

Is it labelled "Packaged drinking water" or do I have hallucinations??


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## arsenic123 (Apr 12, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Is it labelled "Packaged drinking water" or do I have hallucinations??



Lol I have written it. I bought it as loose so I took my bottle which was lying in backyard. I am still waiting for the answer.  
P. S : Dont judge a book by its cover.


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## necromancer (Apr 12, 2014)

arsenic123 said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > Is it labelled "Packaged drinking water" or do I have hallucinations??
> ...



solar_plasma is trying to promote that safety always comes first.

a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## solar_plasma (Apr 12, 2014)

Without knowing what ingredients it contains beside hypochlorite nobody will be able to tell for sure, if it will cause problems or not. Probably it will work, but who knows for sure....

edit: ok,I just saw, you wrote amino oxide (sure it isn't amine oxide?)...then I don't know....maybe some chemists will join in....


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## arsenic123 (Apr 12, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Without knowing what ingredients it contains beside hypochlorite nobody will be able to tell for sure, if it will cause problems or not. Probably it will work, but who knows for sure....
> 
> edit: ok,I just saw, you wrote amino oxide (sure it isn't amine oxide?)...then I don't know....maybe some chemists will join in....



Oh sorry. My bad. Here is the actual ingredients. 

Ingredients: Sodum hypochlorite 4% max. sodium hydroxide 1% max. amine oxide 1% max. 
Hope this helps. By the way this ingredients are for the link above which is considered as substitute of clorox. The bottle above is loose bleach which I don't know contains any of other chemicals apart from hypochlorite. 
The link is.. 
http://bigbasket.com/pd/281366/rin-fabric-conditioner-200-ml-bottle/

Thanks


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## solar_plasma (Apr 12, 2014)

You can find hypochlorite without amine oxide. Amine oxides are or have the function of surfactants. It has been advised (thanks Marcel!) better to use those solutions without surfactants. That's all I can help with.


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