# Smelting 41 kgs of mlccs followed by large scale cupellation



## gaurav_347 (Jan 11, 2017)

All,

There are 3 parts to the video . The person has only uploaded 2 parts . These are not my videos . I am only uploading them for the members to see how scraps are being processed on a large scale in countries like India and Pakistan mainly by the unauthorized sector. 

Regards,
Gaurav
PART 1
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UoIU6Ef-o[/youtube]

PART 2

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9jFjXVo6Tk[/youtube]


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 11, 2017)

I'm not sure what I was supposed to get out of that, granted I only watched the first video so far... But, I think if the cool guy with the shades is selling something, I would be inclined to buy it. 8)


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## jeneje (Jan 11, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> I'm not sure what I was supposed to get out of that, granted I only watched the first video so far... But, I think if the cool guy with the shades is selling something, I would be inclined to buy it. 8)


If he keeps on using his hands without gloves on,,,,he won't live long enough to sell anything. All I seen was what not to do based on safety. I would guess they know about PGM poisoning and then again, I don't think they really care. It's all about the money, I guess. :shock: 

Ken


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## patnor1011 (Jan 11, 2017)

I am curious to see how much of gold did he got out of that amount of salvaged capacitors and resistors. It looks that they got less silver than expected, 3.6 kilogram AgPd ingot is somehow less than I would expect from 41 kilograms of feedstock. But then there was some sloppy work with broken crucible also there must be quite a bit of metal trapped in slag it was kinda visible mainly on fourth pour and looks like some values were lost also when they were skimming PbO. Just my observation.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 12, 2017)

jeneje said:


> If he keeps on using his hands without gloves on,,,,he won't live long enough to sell anything. All I seen was what not to do based on safety. I would guess they know about PGM poisoning and then again, I don't think they really care. It's all about the money, I guess. :shock:
> 
> Ken


....why do you think there was only 2 of 3 videos released... :evil: :twisted: 

I found it foolishly funny, that he mixed the "clean" with the dirty ones in the beginning... And some weren't even sorted through great anyways. It looked like he was mixing tungston and tantalum pieces with other junk... ...now, I can't even pretend like I know what kind of outcome that would bring but, I would think it would've been in his best interest to run the clean stuff then the dirty separately. ...I am surprised some of that stuff didn't get edited out though for the sake of youtube-cool-guy prosperity.


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## anachronism (Jan 12, 2017)

TBH I quite enjoyed watching the second video. There was a lot of interesting stuff to see in there. I already knew that they wouldn't be running to "standard" H and S regs so I discounted that concern at outset.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 12, 2017)

I don't think it is foolish to mix two batches together if it is processed in the same way. Running two smaller batches could probably create more loss than one large.

The guy filming is probably the one that gets the money in the end. The guy in the movie, mixing chemicals with bare hands, is probably just a worker and paid by the hour.
At the end of part two he is using rubber boots and gloves so that is probably the owner filming himself working with the valuable stuff.

It looks like he is making a new video every week so part three is probably due in a couple of days.

Göran


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## patnor1011 (Jan 12, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> jeneje said:
> 
> 
> > If he keeps on using his hands without gloves on,,,,he won't live long enough to sell anything. All I seen was what not to do based on safety. I would guess they know about PGM poisoning and then again, I don't think they really care. It's all about the money, I guess. :shock:
> ...



You may be mistaken my friend. :mrgreen: 
First of all while you are correct that few capacitors were indeed orange tantalum ones I would say that there was so little of them that there was no point to pick them up. However, what you refer as dirty ones are those which actually brought in the gold. There is no gold on unused ones, gold comes from gold plated pads on pcb where they were soldered. From what I have seen he had all the good stuff there with exception of very few ta capacitors I mentioned. What you call other junk are in fact resistors which do have very good silver yield in them.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 12, 2017)

Thats good to know Pat, and I appreciate the correction! 8) 

I saw the big red square one's and the others you mentioned, I was under the impression they were majority base metals.
Thank you much

The second video was much better than the first, I must admit.

But, when the crucible sprung a leak, I had to rewind a bit just to see how close the guy was to losing a foot!

I am quite intrigued after the second video, and hope he uploads the last part of his trilogy soon.


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## gaurav_347 (Jan 13, 2017)

All,

Here are some facts regarding this process. Firstly the cupel that was used will be broken down,grinded in the ball mill and smelted again along with the next batch of ic ashes or mlccs. The top oxide layer that is being skimmed will also be smelted again . This is done to save costs to use litharge again. In the next batch less than half the amount of lead/lead oxide is used.. This is also done because some of the values get absorbed by the handmade cupel. It's a continuous process. This way they recover 99 % of the values. 

Regards,
Gaurav


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## gaurav_347 (Jan 13, 2017)

At 13:50 mark you can see the worker is breaking some kind of rock with a hammer . This is the cupel that the youtuber is using from his previous batch.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 13, 2017)

Ye, they mentioned it in the video.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 14, 2017)

Video 3 is live now.
8) 8) 8) 8) 
He doesnt boil his dmg/water solution..or filter, he just dumps it all in and waits a day. ( Why do people opt against cementing on copper so much??) He burns all his dmg-pd filters inside (bad idea) 
Once he melts the pd, he adds ammonia chloride pinches to it.. I dont see any noticeable crabbing on the pd button, does that mean the purity is considerably off from the 99% he poses?

...then his silver chloride, he just throws into a furnace.. Doesnt show him mixing anything with it at all, but he recovers almost 420g out of 750... So I am thinking he lost quite a bit.

Anyways...once he gets to the gold, its still pretty dirty. The 10.4g button doesnt have a visible pipe even though he dissolved it in AR..

I would post the link, but I am stupid and cant figure how to copy the hyperlink from my youtube app... ..stupid smartphone..


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## gaurav_347 (Jan 14, 2017)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niblGgpB7aQ[/youtube]

Here you go Topher_osAUrus.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 14, 2017)

Whoop! There it is.

Thanks, I was following the advice of Dave to get it posted ...then I checked the mail and had a tripleA membership letter that had a bunch of stats and junk to get me to become a member...I started crunching the numbers of their "stats" and it's ridiculously far fetched.. But thats neither here nor there, nor related to gold. :roll: 

Thank you for posting it up for everyone else.

I still wonder if he mixed the AgCl with anything before furnace reduction. I saw them sprinkle a pinch of something on it, but it didn't say anything at that time.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 15, 2017)

Ken, you can teach them, you cant hate them. You simply cant apply your standards to their situation as it is completely different. If no other then they go through exactly the same evolution process we went few years ago. We may be ahead, but you can be sure that they will also get there. It all take time, perhaps some help but hate or degradation does not help a bit. 
There is not a long time when "we" or people in the west were sniffing chemicals or even tasting them, health and safety is also fairly new addition. I bet that there is still quite large amount of people in the west who do use mercury for gold reclamation. Mining with cyanide leaching on huge scale with spillage of millions of liters of mining waste in the ground or rivers? "Western" petroleum companies with less than adequate standards when operating somewhere in third world countries? We can go on and on but believe me, we are no better than they are. 
That he used gloves and poor workers in foundry did not? Exactly the same is happening over here and you will see it if you open your eyes, it just look a little bit different.


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## jeneje (Jan 15, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> Ken, you can teach them, you cant hate them. You simply cant apply your standards to their situation as it is completely different. If no other then they go through exactly the same evolution process we went few years ago. We may be ahead, but you can be sure that they will also get there. It all take time, perhaps some help but hate or degradation does not help a bit.
> There is not a long time when "we" or people in the west were sniffing chemicals or even tasting them, health and safety is also fairly new addition. I bet that there is still quite large amount of people in the west who do use mercury for gold reclamation. Mining with cyanide leaching on huge scale with spillage of millions of liters of mining waste in the ground or rivers? "Western" petroleum companies with less than adequate standards when operating somewhere in third world countries? We can go on and on but believe me, we are no better than they are.
> That he used gloves and poor workers in foundry did not? Exactly the same is happening over here and you will see it if you open your eyes, it just look a little bit different.


Pat, you are right. I did not mean for my post be a hated post. What I was trying to do here is, if we are going to discuss these video's let talk about what needs to be addressed from a professional refining aspect. NO, i do not think that the guy making these video's should have PPE and the men he is using to perform the work does not. I think they need it too. Putting them in harm's way is wrong in any Country IMHO. 

I do understand what you are saying about the evolution of the Countries, and YES we are lucky that we have laws to protect us in the West. Again sorry if, I let my personal feeling come out in this thread, however, I think we should focus on the right and wrong ways of doing our hobby.

Ken

Ken


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## patnor1011 (Jan 15, 2017)

That is kind of what I was trying to say. It is essentially our fault anyway. It is us who ship our electronic waste there instead of having it sorted out here. We do this exactly because we know that they do it cheaper. And they do it cheaper exactly because they do not use proper caution. It is a full circle and we are the ones who are responsible for it as in order to keep it cheap we need them to do it that way over there. 
That we is exactly you and me. While all decision making is made on corporate level it is you and me who enable corporations to do this and pretty much get away with it. Another full circle there. 
This is the way it always was and it seems it will stay like that for quite some time. I am not leftist or anarchist or whatever label someone may want to throw at me, I just see things as they are.

But back to the topic after re-watching first part I can say that Topher was quite right and there is quite a lot of garbage in there and while it may account for some of less than expected yield. Another loss can be that it was quite sloppy job all the way and in pretty much every step. 
I would call it not so good recovery and from what he did I would say he did recovery but not refining. Refining is way different from what he did.


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## 4metals (Jan 28, 2017)

Most of the unfortunate exchange that caused the members to be banned has been removed.

Members please note the bickering on this thread has resulted in both Jon, AKA Anachronism, and Ken, AKA Jeneje receiving a 2 week temporary ban from the forum. This behavior will not be tolerated, either baiting another member or coming back in a demeaning manner are both against the forum rules and will result in a temporary 2 week ban. In addition, any individual having received 3 bans is done.

We recognize there are what we in the US consider safety issues here and we rely on the common sense of our members to see beyond the safety issues and enter into a discussion of the actual processing. A thorough discussion of the process, the actual chemistry behind what is happening to get the desired results may prove interesting if we all focus on the methods and ask questions and discuss this in a civilized manner. 

A PM by the OP requested this thread to be unlocked and after removing the offensive posts the moderators decided to do just that. So let the questioning begin.


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## gaurav_347 (Jan 31, 2017)

Thank you 4metals for unlocking this topic for further discussions. This is relatively a new process for most of the members here. Kevin uses similar processes but his process is done in one go. Here are two steps first smelting and then cupellation and investment on litharge is only a one time thing. This method is applicable for both ic ashes and mlccs. You can always scale down the process accordingly. Owltech has come good videos on his channel on youtube to make cupels out of portland cement. This is one of the best forms of recovery if you do it correctly and in a manner where you or the environment is not affected. I am currently in the process for manufacturing a large furnace where I can smelt 15-20kgs of ic ashes in one go . It will be fired by coal. If anybody has any confusion related to this process I am here to help.

Regards,
Gaurav


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## Lou (Jan 31, 2017)

The manufacture of the cupels is to me the most fascinating part.


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## gaurav_347 (Jan 31, 2017)

Lou said:


> The manufacture of the cupels is to me the most fascinating part.



it indeed is! These cupels are usually left to dry for roughly an hour before placing them under fire.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 31, 2017)

You know a lot about their processes... Are you sure you're not the cool guy with sunglasses? 8) 

I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I have actually been watching all of the goldrecovery65 video's, and have a couple of questions for the poster. Such as, in one video, he takes ceramic cpus and uses HNO3, HF, and H2SO4 on them. 

What benefit comes from the HF? Does he experience any dissolving of the gold prematurely from that method?(as I have read that any halogens in sulfuric can and will dissolve gold, especially at elevated temperatures) why not just go straight to AR? 

Are his vessels titanium ones? Surely he is losing some values when decanting through that metal strainer, its mesh size looks pretty large for fine gold wires.

I do have more questions than that, but, wasn't sure if you wanted them in this thread, or if you would like to make a new one that encompasses all of your videos.

Either way, it's very interesting to see how people across the world are recovering gold. Thank you very much for sharing. 8)


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## patnor1011 (Jan 31, 2017)

Do not take everything he does. His work is what I would call sloppy. Like for example video where he processed sim cards. He had no clue about bonding wires in these, he went after plating only and when I pointed to him that he lost most of gold by not going after wires I guess he did not liked it and deleted my comment. I guess he only like those commentators from his side of world half of which are close to become his worshipers.


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## 4metals (Jan 31, 2017)

The process detailed here is essentially a fusion and fire assay on a large scale.

If I received the same material in for an assay, I would break them up and heat to a red heat to make them easier to crush. Then I would grind them in a mortar and pestle. He did the same with a melt furnace and a ball mill. 

Then the powder would be mixed with lead (as litharge) and soda ash and borax and he chose to add a small quantity of oxidizer as niter. This entire mixture is placed in a furnace and when molten poured into a cone mold. The end result would be just as he achieved, the lead and all metals will melt and the slag will be taken off the top when solidified. 

Then the lead alloy which is on the bottom of the cone mold is placed in a cupel and fired. The result is the same as his, a doré button containing all precious metals. 

I would have used a cupel purchased for assay, or possibly if it were a pound sample (really unusual for it to be considered an assay) I would use one of Legend's 10" Mabor cupels. These big cupels will absorb an amazing 14 kilograms of lead. down side they cost $100 each.  http://www.lmine.com/mabor-magnesi...abor-pc-cupel-production-size-10-p-4846.html


As Lou said, their making of a cupel in place is a really creative and effective (as I am sure it is much cheaper than a 10" Mabor) We can learn something from this.

They use old recycled lead from broken up cupels in the process. Cost saving for sure and it is the reason the skimming was required on the cupel while it was firing. 

Without going back and reviewing his yields, from memory the silver was just under 15 ounces, Palladium just about 1.5 ounces and gold 10 grams. At current prices 
Ag 15 oz @ $17.50 = $262.50
Pd 1.5 oz @ $750 = $1,125
Au 10grams/31.1 = .321 oz @ $1210 = $388

So 40 Kg of MLCC's was worth $1,775. Or $44 a kilogram Or $20 a pound. How do these numbers look to some of you who have processed these MLCC's.

With the exception of the waste from the chemicals used, (which I might add a lot of excess acid was used) the only waste is the lead volatilized in the process which on a large scale should be scrubbed, and the solids from spent cupels.


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## 4metals (Jan 31, 2017)

The cupels are made from a 50:50 mix of "Ash and Calcium Hydroxide" would that be bone ash?


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## Lou (Jan 31, 2017)

Turns out there's tons of information to be had.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7TLnAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA649&lpg=PA649&dq=cupel+press+portland+cement&source=bl&ots=wJPMhlU3Dt&sig=wEmqWYkCRbSvl2_DLTLjzLP4QXo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT2dKn3u3RAhVD1CYKHTJGCTwQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=cupel%20press%20portland%20cement&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=i_JMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=cupel+press+portland+cement&source=bl&ots=fKwsd93pni&sig=xjTTAMrq8YYf8ulKEYJ_3dxOj2g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT2dKn3u3RAhVD1CYKHTJGCTwQ6AEIHDAB#v=onepage&q=cupel%20press%20portland%20cement&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=DGXwAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA33&lpg=RA1-PA33&dq=portland+cement+cupel&source=bl&ots=jDTD-JwKMX&sig=YmjvUHvr27tpUyctvE2Vktnp9pw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfgNaT3-3RAhXCOiYKHbAYDlAQ6AEIMTAD#v=onepage&q=portland%20cement%20cupel&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=3WgtAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=cupel+press+portland+cement&source=bl&ots=4brlVwXmQv&sig=rtsPhaPinJLFhW_rADP4aW6Q-4w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT2dKn3u3RAhVD1CYKHTJGCTwQ6AEIJTAD#v=onepage&q=cupel%20press%20portland%20cement&f=false

I know magnesia and calcia are the best to melt platinum in. Lime you can even press into blocks and melt very large quantities of platinum in with O2/H2, al la Deville, who melted several hundred kilograms. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=xriMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA286&lpg=PA286&dq=melting+platinum+lime+block+deville&source=bl&ots=FKCJzg8azS&sig=V3A1bacUi_QSenn29BAMiLjNWtY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6s4-z3-3RAhVMQyYKHUvvCs8Q6AEITDAN#v=onepage&q=melting%20platinum%20lime%20block%20deville&f=false

I would like to make one such of those furnaces and do a couple kilograms (I don't even have a 100+ kg at a time to melt!)


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## gaurav_347 (Jan 31, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> You know a lot about their processes... Are you sure you're not the cool guy with sunglasses? 8)
> 
> I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I have actually been watching all of the goldrecovery65 video's, and have a couple of questions for the poster. Such as, in one video, he takes ceramic cpus and uses HNO3, HF, and H2SO4 on them.
> 
> ...



Sir,
Unfortunately I am not the cool guy with the sunglasses. I know a lot about this processes as it's the way the informal E-waste recyclers recover precious metals. 

In the video comments he usually answers all the questions. The reason he uses HF is to dissolve aluminum.

The vessel that he is using is made up of 304/316 stainless steel.

Regards,
Gaurav


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## gaurav_347 (Jan 31, 2017)

4metals said:


> The cupels are made from a 50:50 mix of "Ash and Calcium Hydroxide" would that be bone ash?



Sir,

When he says ash it could be either burnt wood ash or burnt cow dung ash! They also add a little portland cement in this mixture. Some use only portland cement and wood ash 70:30 ratio to make their cupel.

Regards,
Gaurav


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## g_axelsson (Feb 1, 2017)

Google books only shows small snippets of books to some regions of the world, for example I can only read five lines of text. I'm adding links to alternative sources so the rest of the world also could read it.


Lou said:


> Turns out there's tons of information to be had.
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=7TLnAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA649&lpg=PA649&dq=cupel+press+portland+cement&source=bl&ots=wJPMhlU3Dt&sig=wEmqWYkCRbSvl2_DLTLjzLP4QXo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT2dKn3u3RAhVD1CYKHTJGCTwQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=cupel%20press%20portland%20cement&f=false
> Alternative link https://archive.org/details/miningscien100unse
> ...



With my 12 grams of PGM:s I'm playing in another league.  

Göran


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## gaurav_347 (Feb 8, 2017)

Has anybody been able to perform this on a smaller scale?


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## 4metals (Feb 8, 2017)

I was able to take 100 grams of powder ground and ball milled from this type material and using the identical flux ratio he used and end up after the fusion with a lead cone from a reasonably fluid flux, no noticeable beads were clinging to the crucible after the fusion. Which in an assay fusion are easy to see while the crucible is still red hot after the pour. I would expect a thinner flux from the addition of fluorspar which may increase the yield slightly because the flux did run thicker than I prefer but as I said I did not notice any bead left behind. 

Cupellation in a standard 2" Mabor cupel yielded a 52 milligram doré bead.

I did not use lead recovered from previous fusions I just used granulated assay lead. The yield was as a doré bead which was white. It was in the range of result (actually a bit better than the video's yield) but I did not digest the bead and break it down into silver palladium and gold. 

This proves the method is scalable.


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## patnor1011 (Feb 8, 2017)

Too bad that I cant locate any cupel sellers in EU. Shipping from USA is way too expensive. I would love to try some samples myself as I do have about 10 kilograms of good stuff so far and pile keeps growing. It would be nice to know what I do have there before I would have to send it somewhere to recover metals.


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## 4metals (Feb 8, 2017)

Pat,

Check into some of the resources listed in this thread for making your own cupels, I made a hearth for a cupellation furnace to absorb the lead and make doré bars and it was easy to replace the old base (cupel) and reline it for more material. If you notice they only heat from the top so a good burner focused from above and surrounded by refractory bricks should do the trick.


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## gaurav_347 (Feb 9, 2017)

4metals said:


> I was able to take 100 grams of powder ground and ball milled from this type material and using the identical flux ratio he used and end up after the fusion with a lead cone from a reasonably fluid flux, no noticeable beads were clinging to the crucible after the fusion. Which in an assay fusion are easy to see while the crucible is still red hot after the pour. I would expect a thinner flux from the addition of fluorspar which may increase the yield slightly because the flux did run thicker than I prefer but as I said I did not notice any bead left behind.
> 
> Cupellation in a standard 2" Mabor cupel yielded a 52 milligram doré bead.
> 
> ...



Sir,
Thank you for trying this method out and proving that this is scalable. In the video you can see their cupellation setup which is very ancient. Can the same be performed in a large muffle/cupellation furnace. I have a plan in place to make a muffle furnace with working area of 1 feet by 1 feet by 1 feet. I had discussed this previously also but i am just skeptical if the same process can be performed in a muffle type furnace. The main reason being opening the muffle door to remove the slags floating on the top due to recycling of old cupels. Will this cause issues to the process. I want to perform the same process but in an environmentally friendly way with all the scrubbers in place. The furnace will be induction based and the maximum temperature will go to 1200 degree celsius. Should the temperature be more than 1200 degree celsius to perform this process. I will be making my own cupels based on the ideas that you have provided. I just want to be absolutely sure before I invest in the equipments necessary to execute this process. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanking you,
Gaurav


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## gaurav_347 (Feb 9, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> Too bad that I cant locate any cupel sellers in EU. Shipping from USA is way too expensive. I would love to try some samples myself as I do have about 10 kilograms of good stuff so far and pile keeps growing. It would be nice to know what I do have there before I would have to send it somewhere to recover metals.



You can try this method out to make cupels . I am posting the links below. The youtuber is a member on this website. He goes by the name of Owltech. He has always been of great help. 

*Silver refining by cupellation*
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqIMb-sDXuw[/youtube]

*Making cupels*
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyDlrVgJETw[/youtube]
Regards,
Gaurav


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## 4metals (Feb 9, 2017)

The cupellation I did was at 1000 degrees C and it worked fine so at 1200ºC you should do fine. Remember the alloy is heavily influenced by the melting point of lead which is quite low. 

I have drawn a sketch from memory of the furnace I used in South America to cupel large lots of mining doré. This was a no frills system which effectively cupelled the material. 

View attachment removable bed cupellation.pdf


The stack rose quite high as there was no bag house or scrubber to eliminate the lead fume. I remember asking how they deal with the lead and they responded "very high" ! So I got the hint. 

The tray was a cast iron tray and the bone ash mixture was pressed into the tray and shaped so there was a depression large enough to hold all of the lead alloy. They had a lot of trays and when a used one came out it was emptied and the tray was refilled with the mixture and shaped to hold the pool of molten lead. They lay out in the sun to dry for a good week before use. 

When the new tray was added, the roof slab was lifted off and the furnace was charged. The tray was about 18" wide (45 cm) and 36" long (90 cm). I think it would be desirable to add a hole in the center which could be covered with a brick to facilitate looking into the muffle chamber to check progress or add more material.

This could be easily made to whatever size you need based on the size of the tray you are using for the bone ash. The trays slide in from the side and are not dropped in from the top. A stack of refractory brick seals in the burn chamber after the tray is inside.


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## patnor1011 (Feb 9, 2017)

Thank you all, it seems like nice project for summer.


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## Rougemillenial (Feb 12, 2017)

isn't this something I've seen Umar Iqbl do on Youtube. the guy is from Karachi, Pakistan and he has a channel known as gold recovery.


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## gaurav_347 (Feb 13, 2017)

4metals said:


> The cupellation I did was at 1000 degrees C and it worked fine so at 1200ºC you should do fine. Remember the alloy is heavily influenced by the melting point of lead which is quite low.
> 
> I have drawn a sketch from memory of the furnace I used in South America to cupel large lots of mining doré. This was a no frills system which effectively cupelled the material.
> 
> ...



Thank you Sir for the above details. I have finally given an order to procure a muffle furnace.


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## gaurav_347 (Feb 13, 2017)

Rougemillenial said:


> isn't this something I've seen Umar Iqbl do on Youtube. the guy is from Karachi, Pakistan and he has a channel known as gold recovery.



Yes he is the same guy. Jump to the first page and you can see that i have mentioned it.


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## Rougemillenial (Feb 13, 2017)

i find it foolishly idiotic that Umar used DMG to get the palladium out. there's a lot of organic waste, the yield is low, and it's extremely impure since the voluminous precipitate is excellent at chelating impurities. that palladium he has gotten couldn't possibly be over 50% pure. should've used ammonium chloride to crash platinum out then use chlorine gas to crash ammonium hexachloropalladate out. the waste goes directly into the sewer along with some unreacted PMs which is extra idiotic. He'd make much more money if he took the time to neutralize the waste and ensure his health is safe :shock:. I'm aware that there aren't any environmental regulations in Karachi but dumping it is simple ridiculous. you might as well just be flushing money down the toilet :evil:. it's cool that he made a cupel from scratch and shared the flux recipe but that's where the major contributions end. I've done a far better job at responsibly disposing of waste in my smart car garage with no ability to send it off than he has in his industrial park. Though I guess when your life expectancy is about as low as the value of the dollar, you don't think about ensuring your safety. :lol:


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## 4metals (Feb 13, 2017)

Rougemillenial,

I do not know if you have followed this thread earlier but 2 members were banned , one for stating the "stupidity" of the person who made the video for safety reasons and the other for defending the actions of the people in the video and getting into what amounted to a personal conflict between members. But the genesis of the argument was calling the person who made the video stupid. 

And here you are calling him foolishly idiotic. There is a lot to be learned from video's like these, both what to do and what not to do. But name calling can only drive him away and prevent future postings. Maybe you think we will learn from the video's you have posted, OH wait a minute you never posted any video's. We can find plenty of critics who sit in their easy chair and spout their opinions while demeaning others, and it is not acceptable. Constructive criticism, yes totally acceptable, name calling is not.

So if you want to act like your name implies, (rogue: a dishonest or unprincipled man, Google definition) it will have consequences.


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## Rougemillenial (Apr 2, 2017)

4metals said:


> Rougemillenial,
> 
> I do not know if you have followed this thread earlier but 2 members were banned , one for stating the "stupidity" of the person who made the video for safety reasons and the other for defending the actions of the people in the video and getting into what amounted to a personal conflict between members. But the genesis of the argument was calling the person who made the video stupid.
> 
> ...


 Ok I did take it too far here and I apologize for my cynical outlook on Umar and the lack of safety precautions. Also my board name rougemillenial is based on my tendency to do things that can be considered radical, spontaneous, and outrageous though I try to keep a good separation between online life and real life where I do a lot of things that could be considered risky. It doesn't reflect my level of honesty and morality. Some would call it non-representable or hyperbolic and I will change my alias if the forum has any issues with it as I mean no harm or malice in my responses despite sometimes being a bit over the top. Also I never posted a video due to a lack of recording equipment and my desire to do things only if I can do it correctly. I would rather wait until I have a setup that works well and makes high quality videos that can contribute to the wider community of scientists rather than some shoddy setup in the garage with horrible lighting, poor audio, and lacking any level of professionalism. That's just my way of doing things. I'm a collector so this also applies to my extensive collection of minerals so I get a new piece worth $5000 instead of a $100 sample of the same material due to the quality and my go big or go home mentality. Also, maybe it's my lack of word positioning skills that causes people to mistake what i'm directing my harsh criticisms to,thus causing the notion that I'm personally attacking the person's character which I'd never mean to do. As for the value of the dollar line, as cruel as it sounds, the life expectancy of Pakistan citizens is way lower than people in the west. Also I do make a lot of jokes in real life that many would be rather appalled at, but when they get to know me they realize I'm one of the most intelligent and kind people they'll ever meet as my words do not reflect my personality 80% of the time as I make light of dark topics as a way of getting past a harsh reality. But I didn't direct the "foolishly idiotic" quote at Umar but rather the process and destruction of the environment by dumping gallons of toxic waste down the drain. I'd never want him to quit youtube or his passion as he has much to contribute and I support his operation despite the environmental impact. Though I do think that he should be a bit more careful about dealing with waste as to prevent loss and make a higher profit. I don't expect him to do this as every person has a different opinion about subjects and I support peoples ability to think for themselves. I just want to help them make a higher profit margin while making it more environmentally friendly as that'll draw more customers. This would allow for a competitive edge to form thus causing economic stimulation in an impoverished area


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## Rougemillenial (Apr 2, 2017)

The fact that he did this without using acids to separate the metals from the substrate was a very good choice. Unfortunately ceramic adsorbs PM salts thus making extraction equilibrium unfavorable. Though I personally use copper as a collector metal, it's simply a mater of preference and I have better access to copper than lead though either way you have lead in the capacitors so cupellation is likely necessary regardless. the cupels seem to be made of wood ash which isn't as effective as calcium triphosphate but it does still work well. The blocks left afterwards still have some lead but far less. i.e. a couple percent at most. I would love to see someone use chlorine and HCL to dissolve a large amount of gold and compare the cost and time of refinement to the aqua regia process as that would give a good idea on which method is more economical. Also I do think that this process can be optimized to make a safer and more efficient process. I do commend Umar for doing it on an industrial scale, partly to give me an idea on how to deal with my stuff(selfish reasons), but also because it gives people another way go about processing MLCC's or anything else with high ceramic content such as old CPU's and ceramic scanner boards and DLP chips. I do know how to make DMG but it involves the use of ethyl nitrite and hydroxylammonium salts so I doubt I'll be able to do that for a while, and I'd much rather use chlorine and ammonium chloride as I find it to be more efficient. Also his choice of using salt instead of hydrochloric acid was very good as HCl doesn't have a alkali counter ion for the nitrate to form a water soluble salt so It makes aqua regia instead which drives the pH down hindering the silver chloride from coming out of solution. By the color change I think it might have converted the palladium nitrate into sodium tetrachloropalladate which can be reacted with ammonium chloride and chlorine to make insoluble ammonium hexachloropalladate which can be filtered, washed with dilute ammonium chloride and calcinated to get highly pure palladium. the insoluble stuff left after the gold is dissolved is probably a mixture of rhodium, ruthenium, silver chloride, and other PGMS.


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## anachronism (Apr 3, 2017)

Hey Rouge

If your name is designed around being radical and challenging then that's great but you might want to change it from meaning pink. If you ask a moderator they'll alter it to rogue, which I'm sure is what you intended.  

Jon


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## Rougemillenial (Apr 3, 2017)

anachronism said:


> Hey Rouge
> 
> If your name is designed around being radical and challenging then that's great but you might want to change it from meaning pink. If you ask a moderator they'll alter it to rogue, which I'm sure is what you intended.
> 
> Jon


good to know


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## 4metals (Apr 3, 2017)

Except don't ask me to change it as I have no clue how to do that. Significantly above my pay grade!


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## gaurav_347 (Apr 26, 2017)

All,

I smelted 10 kgs of ic ashes . Got 3.9 kg of lead dore waiting to be cupelled . I thought I would continue in the same thread unless mods want me to make a new thread. I have got a cupel made just like the one in the video out of slaked lime and bone ash (tri calcium phosphate) which is kept for drying. I will upload more pictures as I go ahead. Before I do that I wanted to know will it be necessary to add silver during cupellation or should i just process this as it is ? 


Regards,
Gaurav


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## johnny309 (Apr 30, 2017)

The only thing that is going to count is the temperature....watch nature....the dens metals will sink....thats why you should have a greater furnance.....Sn and Pb will sublimate.....silica around 950 degrees Celsius is liqiud and can be pour of...and so on..... metals with high melting point and gravity over 10 will stay of the bottom....


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## kernels (Apr 30, 2017)

gaurav_347 said:


> All,
> 
> I smelted 10 kgs of ic ashes . Got 3.9 kg of lead dore waiting to be cupelled . I thought I would continue in the same thread unless mods want me to make a new thread. I have got a cupel made just like the one in the video out of slaked lime and bone ash (tri calcium phosphate) which is kept for drying. I will upload more pictures as I go ahead. Before I do that I wanted to know will it be necessary to add silver during cupellation or should i just process this as it is ?
> 
> ...



Looking forward to seeing your progress gaurav, please keep us updated.


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## gaurav_347 (May 4, 2017)

kernels said:


> gaurav_347 said:
> 
> 
> > All,
> ...



Kernels,
I was planing to go ahead with cupellation yesterday but unfortunately the cupel cracked . Probably because it retained some moisture due to heavy rainfall in my city. It was made of tricalcium phosphate and slaked lime. I have made one more cupel but this time out of portland cement and slaked lime only. I have kept it for drying. So probably over the weekend I will have the results which i will update here. 

Regards,
Gaurav


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## gaurav_347 (May 4, 2017)

All,

This is just a thought but can I use plaster of paris as a binding material in addition with slaked lime / bone ash for making cupels? 

Thanks,
Gaurav


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## kernels (May 5, 2017)

gaurav_347 said:


> All,
> 
> This is just a thought but can I use plaster of paris as a binding material in addition with slaked lime / bone ash for making cupels?
> 
> ...



Gaurav, I have 0 experience with fire-assay / smelting, so this idea might not work, but . . .

If you are worried about your cupel breaking / cracking / falling apart, why not form the cupel inside a welded mild-steel box, then put the box containing the cupel and dore straight into your furnace.


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## gaurav_347 (Jul 12, 2017)

kernels said:


> gaurav_347 said:
> 
> 
> > All,
> ...



Sorry for the delay in replying back . We did an assay on the dore and found that there was 13 grams of gold . Unfortunately I don't have the reports with me anymore . There was apparently some silver too. We sold the dore to a refiner who paid 90% of the gold only. I guess it was a good deal . Staying away from lead as of now as a fellow recycler is suffering from lead poisoning, Even though he had all the scrubbers in place .


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## Behnam2070 (Dec 22, 2019)

Where are the videos Why I can't see them??!!


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## g_axelsson (Dec 22, 2019)

Seems like the youtube embedder isn't working any longer. Here are the links.

Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UoIU6Ef-o
Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9jFjXVo6Tk
Part 3 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niblGgpB7aQ

Notice at around 7:45 in the third part, the sparks shooting off the molten palladium. It's from absorption of oxygen in the molten metal, and when it solidifies the oxygen is released like a 1500 C fizzy drink. The sparkles shooting off is palladium.

This batch of 41 kg of mixed MLCC gave 420g of silver, 47.5g of palladium and 10.4g of gold.
Looking at the pictures on the starting material it's obvious that it's not very clean. Pieces of glass, a steel screw, resistors, small IC:s... So some of the silver and gold might have come from other components than MLCC:s.

Göran


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## Behnam2070 (Dec 24, 2019)

g_axelsson said:


> Seems like the youtube embedder isn't working any longer. Here are the links.
> 
> Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UoIU6Ef-o
> Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9jFjXVo6Tk
> ...



Thank you for your guidance
I use lead, silver, borax and sodium carbonate Now do you think I should use cast iron or graphite crucible?


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## g_axelsson (Dec 24, 2019)

I have no idea as I've never done any smelting. Maybe someone else of our members could help with that.

Göran


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