# A PRECIOUS COCKTAIL



## 61 silverman (Apr 23, 2009)

A Precious cocktail What the heck is that ... 
The seller list the metal's content as 
1) GOLD
2) SILVER
3) RHODIUM
4) PLATINUM OR PALLADIUM
5) INDIUM
6) GALLIUM
BASE METAL OF COPPER/KOVAR
SOLDER COMPOSITION MAY BE 80% GOLD 20% TIN

These are LASER DIODES -- They have gold bold wires visable as well as some thin plates (like real thin) I did a test with some gold test solution on a small piece of one of these thin plates I found it to be two layer-the middle dissolved into a light green color while the gold remained un-touched other than being seperated into two equal pieces 22kt test solution was used.. I have started de-plating the gold off from the surface each of the 1 in. x 1in. x 1/8th part took nearly a full minute too remove all the gold to flip it for the rest.. charger is set on 10 amp.. these are definately plated heavy, 
If anybody has any DATA on the thickness requirements for laser products I would really like too get that info..


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## 61 silverman (Apr 23, 2009)

hers a couple of pictures


LASER DIODES - HEAVY GOLD PLATING AT LEAST


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## 61 silverman (Apr 23, 2009)

I' ll try to get some pictures up of the material after removing the plated gold,, tomorrow..
Mark
I cannot see in the pictures but on the front edge of the bottom row all of those have ther gold bond wires intact still from 10- 30 wires soldered onto each one..


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## Palladium (Apr 24, 2009)

Engineering Applications
Class 00 20 micro inches
Class 0 30 micro inches
Class 1 50 micro inches
Class 2 100 micro inches
Class 3 200 micro inches

Military specifications:
Additional classes

Class 4 300 micro inches
Class 5 500 micro inches
Class 6 1500 micro inches
The formula for determining content

ESTIMATING GOLD PLATING AND CONTENT
My method and Catfish’s method, of calculating the gold value of plated objects, only vary by
about 1.5%. Pretty close.
I hope that I don’t confuse everyone but, I would like to alter my method a little bit. I think
that my new method will make it easier to understand how it works. Here’s the whole thing.
The only change is in (3), below.
Why would you want to go through this rigmarole? I use it mainly for buying and selling, when
I don’t have an assay. I’ve used it a lot to estimate the value of stuff on Ebay. When dealing
scrap, knowledge is king. Although the method is only ballpark, it’s better than having no idea
of the value.
(1) Make measurements and calculate the total gold plated surface area. You want to
know how many square inches or, how many square centimeters of surface you have. You
need to break the plated part down into it’s geometric shapes.
Fingers are easy because they are rectangles. You just measure the width and length of one
finger, multiply these together, and multiply this answer times the total number of fingers. If
you have 50 sets of identical fingers, multiply that answer times 50. All this gives the total
surface area on these particular 50 sets of identical fingers. For a round thin pin, you multiply
the diameter times pi (3.1416) times the length. For a thick round pin, you also have to
calculate the area of the end. For a square thin pin, multiply the width of one side times 4
times the length.
Type in - surface area formulas - in Google. Some sites will give drawings of the different
geometric shapes and their surface area formulas. I will look for a good one and post it in the
Glossary section.
You can measure in several different ways. The cheapest way is to use a triangle shaped
plastic architect’s ruler. You can get plenty of accuracy using one of these rulers. Get the one
that measures in tenths of an inch and learn to estimate reading it in between the lines
(marks). Don’t ever measure in 1/16ths, 1/8ths, etc. This would make the calculations much
more complicated. For small measurements, you can place the ruler on the object and use
something like a 10X eye loupe to read it.
My favorite is a cheap set of calipers that measures in a decimal part of an inch and, not in
1/16", 1/32", etc. If you can pay more, you can get one that has a dial for the last digit. The
cheaper ones have a vernier and that is a little more difficult to get used to.
Probably, the best is a comparator. This is an eye loupe that has a scale built into it. You can
get a variety of screw-on scales for it.
You could use a micrometer but, they are cumbersome.
(2) Estimate the gold plating thickness. This may be the most important factor. You have
to have an idea of how much is needed for different types of parts. Gold plating is measured in
millionths of an inch. Another name for this is microinches. I will refer to them as micro". First
of all, you must understand that this is a pure educated guess. You must understand that the
thickness of gold plating has changed over the years. Also, the plating on such things as
fingers or pins can run all over the map. I have seen fingers that ran from 15 micro" to 80
micro". It depends on the usage requirements and which company made the parts.
On the average, Catfish has been using 30 micro", with very good success, for things that plug
into other things, whether male or female, or for those things that rub against other things,
such as those tiny gold plated balls in small multi-switches. This includes such things as gold
plated connector pins and many fingers. This has also been pretty well confirmed by
41
lazersteve’s yields.
For things that have to be heated, in order to solder an integrated circuit (chip, die) to a
package, you can figure 50 (40 to 60) micro". This includes many CPU’s, sidebraze IC’s, etc. It
also includes hybrid packages (microwave, etc) that often contain hybrid circuits. The gold
thickness on all these types of packages have run quite consistent over the years, unlike
fingers.
For everthing else, you are on your own. There are hints, however. For things that just sit
there, on run-of-the-mill electronic equipment, figure 15-20 micro". The gold is there only for
mild corrosion protection. It doesn’t need wear resistance. If you run across some rare, high
tech, military part that has to withstand high current flow or a highly corrosive environment,
the thickness could be out of sight. Most common modern items run between 12 micro" to 35
micro".
Two ways to really know the real gold thickness, on specific parts, is to assay them or to
refine them (the whole batch or, just a few of them, as a sample). You can then measure and
calculate the surface area. From this, you can calculate the gold thickness. There are specific
types of equipment that measure plating thickness. The Microderm and Betascope utilize
radioactive isotopes to do this. The Kocour machine actually dissolves a small spot of the
plating. There is also X-ray thickness measuring equipment. Most all of these need standards
in order to set them up. You can also plate backup nickel on the gold plate, make a
metallurgical mount, polish and etch it, and measure the thickness using a metallurgical
microscope. I have lots of experience using all of the methods and equipment (except for xray)
covered in this paragraph. If you want more info on any of these, let me know.
A special category is gold brazes. They probably run from 500 to 1000 micro" thick. A 80/20,
gold/tin braze is used around the edge on gold plated lids used to seal IC packages, such as
some CPU’s, side braze packages, or all-gold plated hybrid packages. Also, on many of these
same parts, a 96/4 (I think), gold/silicon braze is used to attach the chip.
The mil specs and other official thickness charts, concerning electronic parts, aren’t that
helpful unless you know what thickness Class Number was called out when that exact part was
manufactured. If you assayed parts, you could probably get some correlation between the
data, however. The official decorative gold plating charts are a little more helpful, since some
plated jewelry is marked. If you see a marking of H.G.E., e.g., you know it should be 100
micro" thick, when new.
(3) Calculate the gold plating value.
First, for us in the US, who have measured things in square inches.
(a) Get the spot market price of gold, in dollars per troy ounce. Divide this number by 10000
(ten thousand) on the calculator (Note: This is the only change I made in my method). This
gives the dollar value of one square inch of gold plating, one micro" thick. Let this sink in your
brain. For example, if the gold price were $660 per tr.oz., the value of one square inch of one
micro" thick gold, would be 660 divided by 10000 or, $.066. Please note that this was a little
discovery of mine and you won’t find it anywhere else. I just noticed that, when I calculated
the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, using the density of gold, etc., it just
happened to be within 1.5% of dividing the spot price by 10000. Pure coincidence.
(b) Multiply this times the gold thickness in micro" and multiply this times the number of
square inches you have.
Dollar value of gold plating = Spot price divided by 10000 X thickness in micro" X area in
square inches.
Example: The gold spot is $650. You have 9.58 square inches of gold plate that you estimate
to be 30 micro" thick.
650 divided by 10000 X 9.58 X 30 = $18.68.

For those measuring in centimeters and calculating area in square centimeters:
Spot price in US dollars divided by 10000 X thickness in micro" X area in square centimeters
divided by 6.452.
You’ll have to convert other currency values on your own.
Play with this. It’s easier than I’ve made it sound. As you probably know by now, I’m a detail
guy. Just remember it’s limitations. At best, it’s a estimate, which will often (but, not always)
be a bit on the low side.
Chris


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## butcher (Apr 25, 2009)

WOW


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## 61 silverman (Apr 27, 2009)

THANK YOU Palladium,,, That was a mouth ful, and is a BRAINful.. some of the gold plate info you gave here I have seen before and thank you for re- printing it.. 
Is there a secret code to tell what level the material might be, I had noticed that there were some numbers scratched into the plating on some of them,, I'll have too look see if any have it left,, was like 9816or something like that..
What about the list of metals,, could all of those metals be alloyed together, or possibly plated in levels or not there....
Mark
Here is the next batch I'm waiting on......


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## 61 silverman (May 12, 2009)

Here is a picture of some of the diodes beeing deplated..


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## 61 silverman (May 12, 2009)

test with solution "A".. Black with brown tailing the black is from my solution in my oppinion,, is concentrated..started with 6.35 grams recovered from deplating cell.. Wet with water - broke up chunks - added HCL enough too just cover - added 20 ml bleach - all reaction stops -- heat too just under boiling ,When all clorine odor gone,, POURED THIS SOLUTION OFF.. REPEAT ABOVE TREATMENT A SECOND TIME...There is still approx. 1 gram, a guess of material that has not yet been disolved.. almost forgot inbetween the 2 Hcl/cl treatments I used about 30 ml of hcl heated to steamy, the HCL yurned olive green and gave a tan color solution A test..


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## 61 silverman (May 12, 2009)

Positive gold test with tan tailing...?


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## 61 silverman (May 12, 2009)

settling gold..


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## 61 silverman (May 12, 2009)

washed clean .... HOW'S IT LOOK


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## 61 silverman (May 12, 2009)

GOT AHEAD OF MYSELF HERE IT IS CLEAN..


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## lazersteve (May 12, 2009)

Looks great Mark!

Have you done Harold's washing technique on the powder yet?

If not, I can guarantee you it will lighten the color of the powder if you do.

I can't wait to see the button!


Steve


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## 61 silverman (May 13, 2009)

Steve, Thank you again for a # GOOD GRADE # For truly I think of you as ONE OF THE GREATEST ,, YOUR INPUT ON THIS SITE AND YOUR DEVELOPEMENT OF TECHNIQUES HAS BEEN A TRUELY WORTHY ENDEVOUR,, I am sure that you are aware of that.. Again I Thank you for all the help that you have given ME...
I think that I have come along way by what I have recovered TODAY... Not the stripping,, After dried and weighed the recovered cell residue... Disolved this morning,, filtered - diluted - adjusted ph slightly - added SMB Precipitate dropped in 3-4 hours.. ( there is a little bit of material not yet disolved.. a small amount flowed into that container will be recovered when I process the rest,.a pretty clean drop though..) Now, No I have not yet boiled in HCL,rinsed ,repeated.. I was thinking that It was looking pretty good ?? Can only get better though... Can you tell me what should the tan test swab be from(What metal in solution)?? Thank's Mark


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## 61 silverman (May 13, 2009)

Steve ; I just got up and compared the precip. and the picture .. No real compasison the picture is much darker I'll get a well lit picture and post it tomorrow,, It is still in about an inch of water,, I will probably still follow Harold's wash technique,,.. Thank's again  :wink:


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## 61 silverman (May 13, 2009)

Steve, look close at the bottom of the beaker in the fifth picture that I put up TODAY , that is very close to the actual color...The color of the gold in the Beaker..

Mark


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## 61 silverman (May 13, 2009)

Look at the close up


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## Oz (May 13, 2009)

61 silverman,

I thought I saw that brown line in one of your earlier pics. If that is your first precipitation of gold from a gold cell it is remarkably clean.

It seems you are using HCl-Cl2 for putting your gold into solution. That can indeed take several additions vs. AR but a hot stir plate will eliminate that wait. It is also far easier to drive off free chlorine than to rid a solution of nitric.

Just one mans opinion.

By the way, great job!


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## lazersteve (May 13, 2009)

Mark,

Your gold looks very clean indeed. 

The wash step will still help. Even if the color does not lighten, it will remove more of the traces of contaminates from the gold powder.

In my refining I've noticed that the quicker the gold precipitates and settles the higher the purity generally speaking. Clumping (which yours does ) is also a good indicator of higher purity gold powder. 

Really clean gold can settle in less than 5 minutes as one large sponge from concentrated solutions. This heavy sponge tends to trap the solution in it's structure and hence washing is still highly recommended.

Overall very nice job.

Steve


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## 61 silverman (May 13, 2009)

Oz and Steve (and anyboby else that reads this)
Thanks for your comments.. As the both of you said this does look like pretty clean gold,, and as Steve said a good washing will only improve what I have.. I Need to LET my STUBBORN-NESS GO AWAY ,I allways want more than I have got !!!
Oz, You mentioned if this is my first precip. from a gold plate cell? The gold on this post has been precipitated only ONE TIME.. Although I have made trial and error on previous batches, more error than I would like too admit but that's learning..

a note the dry powder weighs 2.73 grams !! Not ever as much as I want   
Oz. Have You seen my post on gold filled material ?? 
MARK


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## 61 silverman (May 13, 2009)

Here is a picture of the remains of 100 grams, just a note I had an incident that made me decide too disolve and precipitate 0.68 grams besides the foils in the picture...
The post is == 1/20 10k gold filled

I still have another 200 grams too process..

 Mark


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## Oz (May 14, 2009)

If you’re talking about the thread on the gold filled watch bands, yes I have.

It is nice hearing that is a first precipitation out of a gold sulfuric cell, as I am sure Steve will confirm it is seldom so clean the first time around.

I loved the artwork you displayed when you first started posting and have enjoyed your posts since. You write clear concise posts with well thought out questions. Many can benefit from the experiences you share and the replies you receive. 

In short, it is a pleasure to have you on the forum.


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## 61 silverman (May 17, 2009)

Oz, Thank You,, When I first found this web site< I thought a dream had come true... There were People here with knowledge " that I had been told,( in the WAY PAST by I forget who ) that was too hard to do,"refing precious metals".!! 
When I found this site I read for HOURS ON END, at times I would get so confused, for two reasons 1) partial information at times too much was beeing left for granted as allready known knowledge by all...
2) I mearly read my self into confusion trying to learn about TOO MUCH AT ONE TIME, I would have too suggest to anybody new take some time too perfect your prefered method, before having to many processes "BOILING AT ONCE.."Know just what and when to do completely, correctly and safely....
I have to say Oz, this is probably why I attempt too be as precise as possible,( that I am able to be ).. 

I hope you enjoy this one it is actually my own sculpture !! GOT SOME FOR SALE <ARTIST> Mark


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## 61 silverman (May 24, 2009)

Hello all and a good day it is.. Is that the sun that I see ...??


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## 61 silverman (May 24, 2009)

I cracked the melting dish with the prep. step, However I risked the possibility that I would have a complete breakage.. Not too happen all came out good,
The button weighs 2.55 grams. A small amount was powder that stayed in my holding container.. All in All I think it is Beautiful....
Mark
This is a picture of my little LAB.


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## 61 silverman (May 24, 2009)

And my View outside....


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## Oz (May 24, 2009)

Mark,

Very nice gold, very nice “shack”? (yea right), and what a view to work with.


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## 61 silverman (May 24, 2009)

Oz, Really I only get 8' x 12' of a 12'x 20' orriginally , I was going too build my bronze's in there. However it will definately work for this HOBBY..I still have alot of work inside to do.. 
Mark


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## Oz (May 24, 2009)

I wasn’t calling it the Hilton but it is far nicer than what we call a “shack” around here. The view however is better than most 4star establishments have been to. The work on the inside will never end either, there are always improvements one wants to make. 8’ X 12’ is large enough to make a living out of however. I do love that view, nice office!


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## Noxx (May 25, 2009)

Hey, your lab is larger that mine at least


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## 61 silverman (May 25, 2009)

Thank's guy's. The view I take advantage of..( Having Grown up on this Property ). That is also the direction from my house that I have been given permission too PAN for gold in a creek that has proven placer GOLD,,, A friend's AUNT ownes the property, No know quantity , I should find some she says....That is a post for the future..

When I get the inside set up with FUME hood ,and bench , I will be able to work more inside, for now all of my chemical reactions are done outside in plenty of fresh air, and no close neighbors too bother or put in harms way.. 

Mark


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## 61 silverman (Jun 26, 2009)

Hi , all here is a picture of a recent batch,, some of this button is gold that has been re-refined the remainder is from 5oo grams of trimmed boards. After precipitating the gold drying and melting the button is 4.08 grams..
In comparrison this button to the button shown from the lazer diodes,, The lazer diode button must be re-refined, it has a much lighter color than this newest button, with much less a pipe showing on top..the contaminates in this button are as I believe of the PLATINUM GROUP...That is if the seller had given an accurate list of content..


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## 61 silverman (Jun 26, 2009)

this is a picture of my modified fume trap,, I used a 32 oz soft drink bottle choosing one that has a bit of firmness to it.. I am using a 600 ml lab beaker ,, 
1st- take a little plastic wrap line the inside top half and over the rim , keeping this as wrinkle frree as possible..
2nd - wad up a bit of paper use this as a base to set the bottle at the right height..
3rd- get a tube of silicone clear is what I used..this is going to make a seal at the top directing the fumes into the bottle they will collect being contained..read the silicone tube most of them are good for upto around 450 ferenhieght.. 
4th- take a drill and drill in a pattern, holes in the bottom af the soda bottle do not put any holes above the recessed areas of the bottom..
5th- the silicone needs to be applied in (2) steps.. 1st step is to build up the recessed areas of the bottom plan your holes accordingly I have 21 1/4 inch holes in the bottom of mine.. LET THIS FIRST APPLICATION OF SILICONE CURE BEFORE ADDING MORE, KEEP IT CLEAN DON'T TOUCH IT..
6th-- Now the second and final application of silicone.. height support in place, check plastic wrap nice fit ,,place bottle on height support, keep straight vertical,,now start adding the silicone around the edge of the bottle - beaker make sure you get a nice bead in-between add until you see a layer dividing bottle from beaker..Form the silicone to the pour spout,, You can place a drinking straw in the spout area and seal around it, a layer of silicone at the bottom,, this can be razor sliced for a pippet to add small amounts of chemicals...
7th- Let this set and cure for a couple of days. Remove from beaker should have no silicone on beaker if plastic wrapped good,, plastic wrap pulls right off the silicone,, make sure it has cured...
8th-- now get marbles or glass craft beads mine are worm shaped, a couple of pounds of them, you can freeze them, makes a condensation effect and the chemicals return to reaction vessel.. WORKS VERY WELL..


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## 61 silverman (Jun 27, 2009)

Old filter papers hold the answer... Examining my old filters and having a pretty good idea of when and for what each of them were for.. I am seeing , gold chloride in 1-- A light yellow with a black powder that would not disolve in hcl/cl ,In a second and third ..
I know that these are the filters that were used on the lazer diode parts.. It took two small batches of chemicalsto disolve all that would.. I don't like to use any more than necessary..
I will take some pictures of the filters today and post them..


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## 61 silverman (Jun 27, 2009)

here are the pictures that show the filter stain's..purple of gold and yellow of platinum


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## 61 silverman (Jun 27, 2009)

the filter with the gold chloride stain was used for the foils and re-refined material...


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