# half and fully gold plated pins in AP



## kamranashraf (Nov 4, 2009)

i have weigh all pins there is tow kind of pins 
1 mix 25%fully plated and 75%half plated the weight is 197kg 
2 half plated and head plated have 632kg there is also about 8 or 9 hundred board scrap left i ,ll dismantle it later just need your little help want to dip about 500grams of first kind of pins in AP bath stieve movie confirm tow quart HCL and one quart H2O2 for 600 grams but they are finger i am soaking pins so what is the acid and peroxide reissue you recommend for 500grams first kind of pins,also there is about 14kg fingers from all cards and rams of board i think there is no need to show [picture as i already sent them few days ago I ,ll show you my result and also ,ll send it to form
kamran


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## patnor1011 (Nov 4, 2009)

you will be much better served by deplating them in cell. AP is not the best solution for pins.
with that amount of pins try and search forum for tumbler cell.


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## Palladium (Nov 4, 2009)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4005&start=0

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5092&start=0

http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/site_map.html


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## kamranashraf (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks i visited this cell post
but this is simple experiment which is very simple for me i ,ll definitely make a cell through the posts is any body would like to answers my questions, the Steve put a piece of metal in his AP movie i donot know what it is is this copper plate or SS


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## Palladium (Nov 4, 2009)

kamranashraf said:


> Thanks i visited this cell post
> but this is simple experiment which is very simple for me i ,ll definitely make a cell through the posts is any body would like to answers my questions, the Steve put a piece of metal in his AP movie i donot know what it is is this copper plate or SS



A piece of scrap steel. Not S.S. 
A old computer case will work.


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## kamranashraf (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks palladium but why we put the steel into the AP and what reaction rise when we put steel piece,
is there anyone who ever process gold pins through AP what result he got Steve process partial plated gold pins in AP i forget but this post is somewhere in this form i read but he doesn’t cover it fully may be its no good process for pins but i read partially plated pins can be easily removed through AP although i have plan to make a cell for heavy gold plated items, though i have time and i am not so hurry just want to get enough experience step by step through different process,


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## LeftyTheBandit (Nov 4, 2009)

The reason AP is not used for pins is the amount of acid required to dissolve the base metals involved in pins.

AP is great for trimmed gold fingers as there is a small plating of copper just under the gold plating. The AP dissolves the copper under the gold and the gold falls off the board as there is no longer a bond between the gold and the board.

The plating of copper is extremely thin, such is not the case with a partially plated pin. The acid needs to eat away the entire pin instead of a small micrometer layer of copper. This could take months if not agitated and aerated often. Weeks if follow the agitate and aerate method.

AP will work but it will take a long time and must remain aerated (fish tank bubbler) and agitated. Once your AP solution starts going from green to a brown color your AP is saturated and will need to be recycled either by dropping in steel or Zinc. This will cement out the copper and all other more noble metals.


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## LeftyTheBandit (Nov 4, 2009)

It is also very important to know how to process your waste solutions. The Copper Chloride solution you are making is very toxic. On behalf of the board please assure us you are handling your waste solutions. 

Perhaps make a brief comment on how you intend on detoxifying your waste and I bet more people would be inclined to help. Your previous posts have illustrated poor methods if any method of protecting the people who work for you and the environment. It may not be a problem with your government at this time, but for the people who can help you, it is important. We don't want to be telling someone who is in the end is hurting people and the environment.

From your posts I see your intelligent and if you want the big hitters on this board to help, show you are intending to conduct your business in an ethically acceptable manner.

We have seen many bad images of how electronics scrap is handled in developing countries and there are probably more than a few people who are holding back from helping due to they don't want to be part of the problem that plagues the sector.

Perhaps you could start by telling us how you intend on handling the AP solution after your finished with it?


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## kamranashraf (Nov 4, 2009)

thanks LeftyTheBandit for your suggestions and i don’t remember i briefly describe my back ground or not the Pakistan isn’t a country like china where the escarp and other waste disturbing the world beside them our government have very strong and strict rules, you know or not into Pakistan there is three refiners who professionally handling escrap Iftikhar chemical is biggest name into Pakistan who purchase any acid waist for recycle, into our country we don’t dump anything freely even we cant burn anything which is cause of pollution the plenty is 14 years in jail also have a good idea to send my gold plated things to refiners and if i have plan to refine myself then i ,ll not choose this as a business but as a hobby i don’t have plan to establish recycle e scrap business because my business is running very well but i am thinking to send my gold plated stuff to some local refiners i search them through some sources i found three refiners here, also i am not worried about any chemical waste because i have few companies who purchase my chemicals give me some cash and they recycle it or they can eat it its not my problem :lol: 

about my workers> into Pakistan the wages are vary but i assume you misunderstand my post may be its for language barrier my all workers are insured and we also follow government rules i am purchasing copper and other scarps and then we clean shred separate it through shredder machines melt and resell to local market, i also have very good safety equipments so you don’t need to worry about my men all they do they know what they are doing and they are professionals, when you say scrap there may be hundred of kinds which you need to deal with,

i am just getting some experience to dip the small batch pins through ap because i read some post of Steve this is just experiment I don’t intend to take ap as my primary process I already soak 600grams fingers through ap and now I am planning to soak some partially plated pins through AP all I need some information but I assume every one taking it as there isn’t any other process for me FOR GOD SACK IS THERE ANY ONE WHO GIVE ME SOME ANSWRS OF MY QUESTION BESIDE GIVING ME SOME SUGGESTION? i already mention i don’t need gold for money i have every thing though its a good hobby, the few tons mix escarp we purchase every months because its my job but I found its tack some extra time to recycle and I donot have time to take it as a business, so we ,ll just sell it to others like we do and may be now I ,ll dismantle some plated stuff for me so please i donot need any idea that how can I recycle my acid waist but can anyone tell me how can I cement out all noble Mattel before I give my chemical to chemical waist companies,


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## qst42know (Nov 4, 2009)

Copper bars will drop your precious metals from your solution. Something heavy that wont fall to pieces. Save everything that settles.

And then scrap steel will push the copper out.

Or before you add copper or steel keep using it on more scrap. You can keep reusing it until it will work no more at that point your gold should be down. Read what Steve has to say.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5749&start=0


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## Palladium (Nov 4, 2009)

kamranashraf said:


> can anyone tell me how can I cement out all noble Mattel before I give my chemical to chemical waist companies,



That's what you put the scrap steel into the used A.P. for.
It's to cement the metals out.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 5, 2009)

kamranashraf said:


> FOR GOD SACK IS THERE ANY ONE WHO GIVE ME SOME ANSWRS OF MY QUESTION BESIDE GIVING ME SOME SUGGESTION? i already mention i don’t need gold for money i have every thing though its a good hobby, ..............



I will give you suggestion even if you clearly stated that you dont want them. If that is a hobby, treat it as a hobby. Put some effort into your hobby and study different methods, set-ups do some experimenting. Besides most of it is already in here. All already suggested processes and experiments you can try, can be found here and are widely discussed alongside with any potential problems which can arise. This is not a place where everyone is guaranteed to be taken by hand and guided through all steps in all processes. Most of things here are fruits of hard labor, came after some individuals invested their time and money into their lifelong education and work and share them for free. We are sharing informations here - not not teaching, guiding or training people. If you want straight answers go for it, do some experiments and then share them with people here and explain to us what went good or wrong and why. On your info page here you said that you are chemist so I assume you can have some answers yourself from your experience or education. If you dont want to follow suggestions and want step by step guide as to what to do with your stuff you can purchase these informations on ebay - tons of it there.


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## eeTHr (Nov 5, 2009)

kamranashraf;

I think your question was concerning the ratio of HCl to peroxide to use when there was more base metals than just the copper traces of the fingers.

I tried to do a search for lazersteve's explanation of how to adjust this if the solution stops reacting, but even though I have been able to guess some unique search terms before, I'm not able, after several tries, to come up with other than "the word(s) are too common" when trying to find this one, even including lazersteve in the "author" box.

So, since nobody else is offering an answer, I will take a stab at it.

Start off in the usual way, in the same ratio as for fingers, adding only a portion of the total peroxide, and more later. The difference will be that the solution will probably get darker green and probably go to very dark brown which you can't see through.

If the reaction merely stops working (no bubbles forming), with the solution light green, then you add some more of the peroxide, as usual. However, I believe he said if it turns brown you add more HCl until it turns green again, and more peroxide may be needed at that time also if the reaction doesn't start going again.

One possible problem is if the pins or whatever are totally plated (which they are not in this case), and the plating is thick, the AP might not be able to penetrate and get to the copper, and the copper is necessary to form the copper chloride which dissolves the base metals. Another problem is if the plating is over steel, and there is no copper at all it won't work; you'll need to use nitric.

This is what I remember as best i can from lazersteve's several posts about his method.

The point being that there is no exact ratio because each batch can be different, even with fingers. (The same goes for using aqua regia, just add a little nitric at a time to keep it going, to minimize the amount of nitric in the completed solution.)

There may be some others in the forum who can be more specific, chemically, about all this, but this should get you started.


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## Palladium (Nov 5, 2009)

kamranashraf said:


> i have weigh all pins there is tow kind of pins
> 1 mix 25%fully plated and 75%half plated the weight is 197kg
> 2 half plated and head plated have 632kg kamran



Total weight = 829 kg 
= 1,824 lbs


I must admit that, before studying the PDF yesterday, I though that this was a O2/HCl proposition. I now realize it's an O2/HCL/CuCl/CuCl2 proposition. You still need free HCl and O2 for the system - to convert the CuCl to CuCl2. Otherwise, when the CuCl concentration reaches only 20 gm/litre, the reaction will nearly stop. According to a link on the pdf, to dissolve a pound of copper, it takes 1.87 gallons of 3% H2O2 and .32 gallons of HCl. goldsilverpro.

1824 lbs @ .32 / gal Hcl = 584 gal (Hcl)

1824 lbs @ 1.87 / gal H2O2 ( 3% ) = 3,411 gal H2O2 ( 3% )

:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Palladium (Nov 5, 2009)

:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=3021


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## samuel-a (Nov 5, 2009)

kamranashraf 

i made a test same like you.

dumped 5 or 6 pins, half plated into 20ml of HCL.
ambient temperature was 10-15C ( 50-59F), it turned brown at first (day 1), then golden yellow (day 3), then black (day 4) and then back to the normal AP green that we know (day 5), on that stage, the pins ware totly dissolved.... and all that left is nice clean foils, at the exact shape that the pin was....

but, i forgeot to test the solution with stannum | chloride.
though i don't think there was any gold dissolved.

today i submerged 390g (0.86 lb) of 1/3 , 1/2 , 2/3 plated pins into 500 ml of HCL, here the variety of the type is larger... i hope it will go as planned, if it will stop reacting i'll add up 250ml of HCL and see... and again... and again...

i also did a test batch (36g) of 1/2 plated pins in AP 4:1 ratio (80ml HCL + 26ml H2O2), 3 days now.... it turned black now and stop reacting... tomorrow i'll see, if i will not see a change in color i'll add 13ml more of H2O2 to keep it going 

GOOD LUCK


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## qst42know (Nov 5, 2009)

Keep in mind bubbling air in this will help speed the process. A fish tank aquarium pump works well small scale or a low pressure regulator if your shop has a compressed air supply. Providing both agitation and oxygen.


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## samuel-a (Nov 5, 2009)

qst42know, any chance gold will be dissolved by that action?


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## qst42know (Nov 5, 2009)

Air is an alternate source of the necessary oxygen for the process. And from what I understand less of a chance of dissolving gold than over adding peroxide. Though thin gold foils may mechanically break into smaller pieces.

I hope lazersteve steps in if I misstate something.


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## lazersteve (Nov 5, 2009)

Kamranashraf,

Everything you kneed to know about AP is spelled out in detail in the Copper Chloride document on my website.

Here is a direct link to it.

Study this document.

Copper Chloride Etching

Steve


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## kamranashraf (Nov 6, 2009)

Thnak you very much Steve your CUCL document is excellent it covery everything about AP i recommand all new be to reed it first before they go to AP,Thanks every one who answer my post,
kamran


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