# Cargo Cult contraption or genius?



## 924T (Jul 19, 2012)

I saw this Aqua Regia Refining System on ebay, and thought I'd seek opinions on its worthiness from the experts
here on the forum: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Re...umes-purification-Daily-Rate10g-Gold-/1307162

It appears pretty innovative to me, but with typically stratospheric ebay pricing. Then, there's the usual "secret"
(the fume adsorption substance) that isn't revealed until after you part with your money.

Thanks,

Mike


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## butcher (Jul 19, 2012)

Mike,
It looks to me like just that, a way to part with your money, if you wish keep your money and make money, I suggest forgetting that contraption, and read Hokes for free, that and the forum will show you how to recover and refine.


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## Geo (Jul 19, 2012)

Mike, this has been discussed before.http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13957

personally, i wouldnt consider using it because its purported to be safe to use in your home. who would make claims like that other than someone trying to make a fast buck. would you like to be the one to have to sue him because you or a family member nearly died when it failed.


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## 924T (Jul 19, 2012)

Thanks, Butcher and Geo------------I went and read the entire thread on this guy and his device. The Butler design
seems to be the real deal.

Even though the concept of being able to run the Ar process indoors was very tempting, and the design seemed pretty clever, I
could see no failsafes, and, luckily, held off until I could get professional opinions from the forum.

I'm still working on typesetting Hoke's book in Adobe InDesign so that I can print it out with 12-14 point type,
and have all the paragraphs and line spacing correct, to make it easier for me to read, so I haven't had the
pleasure (yet) of working my way through that book. I've got some bookbinding equipment, so I'll probably bind
it into 2 sections, because with the larger type, it's over 400 pages.

Thus, caution is the word of the day here, every day, with the only thing I've done so far being finger foils 
with Ferric Chloride, and that's working really well.

Next up, motherboard pins, both the fully plated ones and the partially plated (ISA, PCI, Ram) slot pins.

Based on the reading I've done on the forum so far, if I've understood things correctly, I have 2 choices of
processes for the pins:

1. HCl to dissolve the Tin/Berrylium

2. Sulphuric Cell to deplate the pins [a note: all the pins I've harvested so far have been tin----I have yet to 
come across any copper-cored pins].

*3. I've been told that smelting/fluxing the pins will not work.

Everything I've seen on the forum has shown Sn to be a major headache to the refining end of things, so I want to get it
out of the material stream, a.s.a.p.

Am I on the right track, to process the pins safely?

thanks again,

Mike


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## Geo (Jul 19, 2012)

the pins that the ribbon cable plugs into is brass base metal, the pins in the CPU sockets is iron base metal,all other like ram and pci are a bronze base metal and will contain tin in the base metal itself. only the bronze pins will add a substantial amount of tin to a solution if digested. the sulfuric stripping cell is probably your best bet. after the initial expense of material to build it, the electrolyte is re-usable.


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## 924T (Jul 19, 2012)

Thanks, Geo!

So, it looks like I could safely deplate the gold off of all the different types of pins from a motherboard
with a Sulphuric cell?

That's a relief-----I was sure hoping I could use just one process to deal with the pins, and not have to sort the
pins out into different categories that would then require different processes.

I'll have to get back to Lazer Steve's site and watch his video again (it's been 2 years since I saw that), and
then search the forum for directions/plans for correctly constructing the cell. I do have an old battery
charger, and an ancient Mallory 12v power supply, so it's conceivable that I could run 2 cells simultaneously.

Will I need a fume hood for this process? I'm hoping to run the Sulphuric cell in my garage.

thanks again,

Mike


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## Geo (Jul 19, 2012)

no fume hood required. you will need good ventilation. hydrogen is evolved as well as oxygen. not a good combination in an enclosed space.


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## texan (Jul 19, 2012)

I had not seen the term"cargo cult" in years. My father was an ordinance/bomb disposal officer in the Pacific Theater in WW2. He knew some of the cargo cult tribes in New Guinea.

Texan


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## 924T (Jul 20, 2012)

Thanks again, Geo!

I ordered the components from LazerSteve today to get my very first Sulphuric cell up and running.

I was completely unaware of the Hydrogen emissions------------it looks like I won't be able to run a Sulphuric 
cell during the winter here! I should be able to manage a 9 month cell year.

I ran into the Hydrogen emmission scenario in a patent for an electrolytic Iodine (KI+I) cell, whereby if the 
KI level dropped too low, Hydrogen would be generated at the anode.

Is there a way to safely vent Hydrogen?


Hello, Texan!

I had never heard of the Cargo Cult thing until I ran across it in one of the threads on this excellent forum.
The term was created by one of the last remaining scientists from "The" Manhattan Project, to describe
junk science, if I remember correctly............you might want to do a forum search for it, because, at least to me,
it was compelling reading, and the Cargo Cult label can absolutely be applied to a lot of the gold refining
misinformation swirling around on youtube and the 'net in general.

I think it's just way cool that your father actually saw some Cargo Cult tribes! Did he tell you much about them?

thanks,

Mike


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## Geo (Jul 20, 2012)

actually, hydrogen is explosive in concentration.any vent will be sufficient in keeping the concentration too low to ignite.an open window with a fan blowing out.


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## publius (Jul 20, 2012)

Geo said:


> actually, hydrogen is explosive in concentration.any vent will be sufficient in keeping the concentration too low to ignite.an open window with a fan blowing out.


Hydrogen: lower flammability limit (LFL) 4%, lower explosive limit (LEL) 17%, upper flammability limit (UFL) 75%, upper explosive limit (UEL) 56% by volume in air.

Keep the concentration below 4% and there should be no issues. Above 17% you risk an explosion.


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## 924T (Jul 21, 2012)

Wow. 

Geo, publius------------I knew Hydrogen was extremely explosive/flammable (Hindenberg Zeppelin), but I didn't realize
the threshold for danger was at such a low concentration.

Is there any way to actually measure the % of Hydrogen in my workspace atmosphere?

thanks again,

Mike


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## butcher (Jul 21, 2012)

The hydrogen evolved from over charging a car battery could be worse than the hydrogen evolved from the concentrated sulfuric acid cell depending on materials run in the cell and the conditions of operation, if mainly gold plated copper pins the volume of hydrogen gas evolved would be low, but if you tried de-plating junk costume jewelry the gases evolved could be very volume-ous as the very reactive metals dissolve in the acid,.

In a lead acid car battery it is the water in the battery that splits into hydrogen and oxygen when the battery is overcharged with too much current, the acid does not split easily or leave the battery, over charging can also spit or splash some acid from the liquid as the gas bubbles pop at the surface which can carry some liquid acid with the fumes leaving the cells of the battery. A battery can explode from an electrical spark and the hydrogen gas and oxygen above the battery.

In the concentrated sulfuric de-plating cell the base metals in solution and any absorbed water from the air can evolve hydrogen gas if the base metals are higher in the reactivity series of metals than hydrogen, or the current or temperature is high, these very reactive base metals above hydrogen in the reactivity series will evolve hydrogen gas when dissolved (copper is lower than hydrogen and will not, but if running some materials like junk costume jewelry which can have any base metals from aluminum, pewter, to lead or you name it, then the hydrogen gases evolved could be very volume-ous.

Any type of recovery or refining, or other use of these acids should not be done indoors, and if done indoors there should be means provided the removal of the gases formed from the area and also fresh air brought back into the work area, providing enough fresh air changes to keep these dangerous fumes at low levels in the air, and the air flow should be such as that the operator is getting fresh air and fumes are not in the air he is breathing (fumes going away from him and fresh air coming towards to him), also the corrosive effects of these acids can destroy any metal tool or other objects in the area, strong solutions like nitric acid can also increase flammability of materials like wood or paper, beside the many other dangers like toxic metal fumes, or toxic fumes from incineration operations, all of these need to be considered, and precautions taken when deciding to work with these materials and anytime you work with them indoors.

Also remember there are other dangers when working with things that are electrical and around acids or waters, fire dangers, electrical shock, fires from operation's like incineration or running a furnace or melting with a torch.

Their are many dangers in just about everything we do, education of these dangers and taking precautions can help you to minimize your problems from these dangers.


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## publius (Jul 21, 2012)

924T said:


> Wow.
> 
> Geo, publius------------I knew Hydrogen was extremely explosive/flammable (Hindenberg Zeppelin), but I didn't realize
> the threshold for danger was at such a low concentration.
> ...


There are many instruments that you can buy yo determine concentration. The simplest is the flame safety lamp like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vint-Miners...533?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c7ea316d It will "pop" and go out in the event that the concentration of flammable is above the LEL and glows brighter as the concentration approaches the LEL. There are elelctric monitors starting about $200 and approaching $2000.

You can avoid the need for such devices by working in a fume hood, outdoors or with proper ventilation.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 21, 2012)

Robert, nice that you know what that is... I don't think the seller has a clue! :lol: 

The collective professional experience of this forum is truly incredible!

Dave


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## publius (Jul 21, 2012)

Dave,
*blush*


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## 924T (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks, Butcher & publius!

The Hydrogen definitely got my attention, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time and trouble to bring me up
to speed on it regarding the Sulphuric cell. I'm thinking I could run the cell outdoors maybe 7-8 months a year, the
rest of the time it's at freezing or far below, so I'm not sure (other than for the frigid temperatures cooling the
Sulphuric) about the viability of running the cell outside during deep winter.

This just keeps getting interestinger and interestinger..........I think I saw that reactivity chart in the GRF Handbook,
so I'm going to have to print it out and put it to use.

The interestinger (part deaux) thing is, I recently disembowled a WD 32500 hard drive, and found that the multi-level
pivoting "arm" that holds the read/write heads is completely gold plated (looks like maybe 5 karat to me), even through
the few screw holes that are in it. It is very, very light, so (it was roughly a 2.5gb drive) I'm guessing that due to its
age, the base metal is either Aluminum or Magnesium---------------so, it sounds like if I deplate it, there's going to be
a Hydrogen party going on.

The only other option I can think of for that WD part is to perhaps score it, and immerse it in NaOH, which would 
"eat" the Al in very short order in a wildly exothermic reaction (if I've got my facts straight), theoretically leaving
the gold plating sitting on the bottom of whatever container would be used for the process.

Any suggestions? Should I I.D. the base metal first? If so, how do I do that (haven't finished typesetting Hoke yet,
should have that accomplished by the end of this week)?

I'm not going to do anything with/to it, until I know what the right way to do it is.

Thanks again,

Mike


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## butcher (Jul 22, 2012)

Mike, are you sure it is not just anodized aluminum that resembles gold in color?


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## texan (Jul 22, 2012)

Hello, Texan!

I had never heard of the Cargo Cult thing until I ran across it in one of the threads on this excellent forum.
The term was created by one of the last remaining scientists from "The" Manhattan Project, to describe
junk science, if I remember correctly............you might want to do a forum search for it, because, at least to me,
it was compelling reading, and the Cargo Cult label can absolutely be applied to a lot of the gold refining
misinformation swirling around on youtube and the 'net in general.

I think it's just way cool that your father actually saw some Cargo Cult tribes! Did he tell you much about them?

thanks,

Mike[/quote]

My dad became a research engineer with an oil field services company after WW2. I remember a Scientific American story about the "Cargo Cult" peoples
that were still practicing as late as the 1960's that he showed me and said he had seen some of these folks when he was in the Pacific. He said that many of them 
acted as resistance fighters and were very good at it.

Texan


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## Geo (Jul 23, 2012)

texan said:


> Hello, Texan!
> 
> I had never heard of the Cargo Cult thing until I ran across it in one of the threads on this excellent forum.
> The term was created by one of the last remaining scientists from "The" Manhattan Project, to describe
> ...



My dad became a research engineer with an oil field services company after WW2. I remember a Scientific American story about the "Cargo Cult" peoples
that were still practicing as late as the 1960's that he showed me and said he had seen some of these folks when he was in the Pacific. He said that many of them 
acted as resistance fighters and were very good at it.

Texan[/quote]

ive seen photos in magazines where Americans, during WWII was dropping humanitarian aid to indigenous people in the Aleutian islands and the south pacific. when the war ended the aid stopped.some of these people never saw a plane before and built replicas of the cargo planes out of wood trying to lure them back and give them more stuff. again, some of these peoples didnt see any more outside influence for almost another generation after the war had ended, so living memory of the planes was lost and the descendants came to believe the planes were some form of god.


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## glondor (Jul 23, 2012)

I think there is a movie based on the cargo cult phenomenon. I believe it is called 'The gods must be crazy" It is about a coke bottle discarded from a plane over a jungle and the effect it has on a tribe of indigenous tribal dwellers. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080801/


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 23, 2012)

glondor said:


> I think there is a movie based on the cargo cult phenomenon. I believe it is called 'The gods must be crazy" It is about a coke bottle discarded from a plane over a jungle and the effect it has on a tribe of indigenous tribal dwellers. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080801/


I loved that movie about the "little bushman". While the bushmen weren't a true Cargo Cult, they believed the coke bottle must have come from the Gods. There was a lot of embedded social commentary within a cute movie.

And I think the original poster was spot on in referring to this device as a Cargo Cult contraption. It resembles a device that someone who understood refining might have used in their process. I can see the inventor of the device making a nice respirator out of some coconut shells and palm fronds. :lol: 

Dave


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## 924T (Jul 25, 2012)

Howdy, butcher!

I scratched the hard drive heads base with a screwdriver, and base metal showed through; also, I was pretty
certain that the gold colored "plating" curled back a teensy bit when I scratched it.

I aim to pursue karat gold in the very near future, so I need an acid test kit anyway----------I'm going to
order the test acids tomorrow----------will that work to test this thing, or is there another way to verify
whether it's gold plated or not?

I could cut a small chunk off and put it into a NaOH solution------------if it is anodization, the NaOH should
dissolve the entire chunk?

If I can find my camera, I can shoot a picture and post it, if that would help.

thanks,

Mike


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## butcher (Jul 26, 2012)

Sodium Hydroxide will dissolve the aluminum, you could scrape some of the coating from the aluminum into a test tube, aluminum is soft and a pocket knife, a file, or sand paper, should get enough of the coating to experiment with, after dissolved you can dilute aluminum hydroxide from any gold powder if any, after letting settle decant solution from test tube, a pipette can be used to remove liquid, then a little HCl and bleach, to dissolve any gold powders if they are there, a little heat to gas off chlorine gas then you can try the stannous chloride test to prove gold or just a gold colored anodized aluminum.


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## 924T (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks again, butcher!

I got to thinking about something GSP had posted, about computer component manufacturers not getting too
slap happy about how much gold they put where (unless it was for gov't. purposes), and I'm suspecting that you're
right, that it's anodized Al, because there is no electrical contact purpose for it on this piece of hardware.

I'm going to test it anyway, just because I want to know the answer.

I've got 8 lbs. of NaOH due to arrive any day now, so I'll do it, and let you know what happens.

And, I've got to say that I admire your intensity, expertise and willingness to help, after reading about your
fall from a tall tower (I don't remember, microwave?) and sustaining heavy physical damage, and all the recovery
that must have taken-------------most people would have just hung their lives up.

So, double thanks for helping this rookie out!

Cheers,

Mike


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