# Non-precipitated reagent



## dragoneproducts (Oct 16, 2014)

Like most that come too this forum seeking answers. I have a situation I need to address. Scanning the book recommended by the hosts; C M Hoke. I have arrived at the conclusion, that it doesn't apply to my particular problem. It is mostly based on jewelry substances and the PMG's not actual ore gold. Although I respect and even admonish the field of alchemy, I am a laymen with some insider knowledge.

I have gold ore (I assume). I have crushed this ore into dust and slightly larger size granules. I began my search for the aqua-regia process looking for a bio-degradable way to process ore. I found a mixture that involved bleach and hydrochloric acid. The ratio was a 1:2 bleach to hydrochloric acid. I first placed my ore in a 5 gallon bucket I then added the bleach and then the hydrochloric acid. I received the desired reaction and was pleased. I then allowed it to set and cool overnight. I then added a precipitant (reagent) sodium metabisul (fite fate.) I'm unsure of the use of which one it was at this point. I am away from the product and storage of the mixture. I returned the next day and found a pile of white powder at the bottom.

I realize that the people hear are a studied lot. And I assure you all; my intension is not to pander for knowledge and sympathy. I understand that this is not a Wikipedia site and those that communicate hear deal with fact and knowledge and not pomp and circumstance to gain respect. I have watched and read some of the you-tubes that show the same color I have from the Hydrochloric acid and bleach. I also see at the end product a yellow coloring on a dipping stick that indicates gold. I have also heard of heating the solution. I will say I have never processed gold ore, but if I can differentiate the problem from the final solution I just may have a jackpot on my hands.

As I indicated before; I don't think C M Hokes book, applies here. I really just need to know if I've got the wrong reagent or if it's the heat thing. I also read here, somewhere, that it may be that my solution is to thick and may need to be diluted. I am a student at Butte College CA. I have spoken to a chemist here (not doctored) and he believes it is the sodium metabi(sulfate) (sulfite) problem.

This is where I found my formula: http://www.ehow.com/how_12101047_use-bleach-gold-ore-remove-gold.html

Thanx to all, 
Dragoneproducts.....


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## nickvc (Oct 16, 2014)

Welcome to the forum.
Where do I start...
Ores really don't respond well to a simple chemical recovery they have a really complex mixture of elements that will foul most wet chemistry attempts to recover them and leave the values trapped within the matrix.
You need to concentrate the values and remove most of the base metals before any attempt is made to recover any values.
As we all keep telling all the new members who have ores they need special and maybe expensive treatments before any values can be reclaimed, assays are a must to determine exactly what is in the mix before any recovery can even be contemplated and the people involved get killed in the attempt.
Read an awful lot and stop dreaming there is no easy answer!


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## dragoneproducts (Oct 16, 2014)

nickvc;
I was given a box of rocks as a child (from pyrite to fossils) and from there I studied as if I were studying for a doctorate. I lived, breathed, and ate rocks for about 2-5 years. I realize that everything is a chemical; thus chemical formula. I am not here with great expectations, just looking for a simple answer to a simple solution.

Where-as you make a valid point about ore and the possible metals in (any) ore, I am in a conundrum. I have processed an acid mix that did not yield anything except a pile of salt. If in fact I do not care about the purity 10k; 12k; 14k; 18k; 22k; 24k of this gold and simply want to make gold Dore, than I need not know what other metals come with the precipitation process.

My query is this, did use the wrong precipitant re-agent? did I not use heat? do I have to much (too thick) acid. I am thinking I just have one small problem and then one easy fix.

And I do appreciate your time and advise on the subject. But really, I have a vat of acid that I need to do something with.


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## nickvc (Oct 16, 2014)

As you seem to have no clue as to the ores constituents and a mixture of bleach and HCl will dissolve most metallic elements I'm not surprised you have no results. All values will be the last thing that an acid leach will dissolve as they are the hardest to dissolve, it's simple chemistry but you need to understand it to see why. If your ore is rich in another element that will dissolve before your values they will be the only things dissolved.
I'm sorry I seem harsh but it's not that simple unless you know the chemistry, there is no simple way to explain this, ores are a nightmare to recover and refine....


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 16, 2014)

dragoneproducts said:


> I then added a precipitant (reagent) sodium metabisul (fite fate.) I'm unsure of the use of which one it was at this point. I am away from the product and storage of the mixture.





> My query is this, did use the wrong precipitant re-agent?


I'm sorry, but how do you expect anyone to answer your question when you don't know what you used?

Dave


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## dragoneproducts (Oct 16, 2014)

nickvc said:


> As you seem to have no clue as to the ores constituents and a mixture of bleach and HCl will dissolve most metallic elements I'm not surprised you have no results. All values will be the last thing that an acid leach will dissolve as they are the hardest to dissolve, it's simple chemistry but you need to understand it to see why. If your ore is rich in another element that will dissolve before your values they will be the only things dissolved.
> I'm sorry I seem harsh but it's not that simple unless you know the chemistry, there is no simple way to explain this, ores are a nightmare to recover and refine....



Believe it or not, I'm thankful you took the time to respond. And as you say there is no true way to find out what I have in the ore without a proper assay. But something you said has caught my attention. The fact, that with the alleged gold, there are other base metals, and maybe more of them; causing the acidification process to work slower. So I'll wait out the reaction for about a weak and proceed. I still wish I knew if the precipitant was the right one or was it the heat I was confused with?


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## Gratilla (Oct 16, 2014)

1) Sodium metabisulf*I*te is the correct precipitant; AFAIK sodium metabisulf*A*te doesn't exist.
2) If you added your chemicals as described, you would have got a lot of off-gassing and wasted most of your chlorine(in addition to exposing yourself to a toxic gas).
3) You don't mention your pH, but I would guess it was well below 2.5. This is the (approximate) point at which iron compounds are dissolved, and
4) A yellow "dipstick" does not necessarily indicate gold. Under your circumstances I would guess you probably have iron salts in solution.
5) To check whether your yellow solution really does contain gold, use the stannous chloride test. For details, read Hoke (or search the forum).
6) If you're interested in the hypochlorite leach, I'd suggest a search of the forum, particularly Traveller11's long and instructive thread. You can't miss it.


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## Harold_V (Oct 17, 2014)

It is well known (and understood by many) that processing ores via acids is rarely successful, and when it is, you are likely to spend more on acids than the value recovered, to say nothing of the vast amount of hazardous waste you'll generate. It is for that reason that cyanide is used (when appropriate). 

I don't mean to be harsh, but processing an ore without having a clue about its content is not wise. Without an assay, how would you know if you were achieving your goal, assuming you achieved so much as a trace of success?

All in all, it's not a good idea, and I'd encourage you to abandon your quest, at least until you know more about what you're doing, and that you have verified that you do, indeed, have gold, and how much.

Harold


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## solar_plasma (Oct 17, 2014)

If you want to read about the matter of only an educational reason, Ammon's "Recovery and refining of preciousmetals" would be a nice read for you. It is not free, so you would have to buy it or try to get it in a library.

Btw. some minerals contain elements and compounds that can evolve deadly toxines when treated chemically or be toxic themselves as a dust.


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## nickvc (Oct 17, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Btw. some minerals contain elements and compounds that can evolve deadly toxines when treated chemically or be toxic themselves as a dust.



One of the reasons for a proper assay to be performed to determine not only what values may be there but what potentially lethal elements are also in the mix or could be created.

The bad news for leaving your ore in your solution for a week is that the mix of HCl and bleach forms chlorine gas that dissipates very quickly with heat and even at lower temperatures it will be gone in 24 hours or so,it also will only dissolve very small particles and then only if in metallic form.


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## bswartzwelder (Oct 17, 2014)

Did you test with stannous chloride and gold chloride? Also anything with a bi sulfate just plain will not work. SULFITE is what you need. It has been mentioned here perhaps a thousand times.

edit: The YouTube video mentions using SODIUM METABISULFATE. As stated above it just plain will not work. Many people have been duped by people on Youtube giving out poor or inadequate advice. The best advice anyone can give is to quit watching youtube expecting to see the same results thay they show. Edn of edit.

You've only been a member for one day. Read Hoke, but more importantly in your case, read the forum. I believe recovering metallic gold from crushed ore has been discussed many times.


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## bswartzwelder (Oct 17, 2014)

You say you were given a box of rocks. How large was that box? In nature, if you get one OUNCE of gold out of a TON of ore, you are doing pretty good. Having said that, if you have 20 pounds of rocks, you could expect to get .01 ounces of gold. That would be enough to almost be visible. There just aint no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I found this out by the time I was 15 years old.


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## dragoneproducts (Oct 17, 2014)

bswartzwelder said:


> You say you were given a box of rocks. How large was that box? In nature, if you get one OUNCE of gold out of a TON of ore, you are doing pretty good. Having said that, if you have 20 pounds of rocks, you could expect to get .01 ounces of gold. That would be enough to almost be visible. There just aint no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I found this out by the time I was 15 years old.



What I was saying about the gifted box of rocks, is that, I gained some insight and understanding about the make-up of solid elements. The gold ore I have is not the box of rocks I speak of. The gold ore I am processing is from the mother-load area of California. (Feather River.) 

There is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; if you own the rainbow


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## dragoneproducts (Oct 17, 2014)

Gratilla said:


> 1) Sodium metabisulf*I*te is the correct precipitant; AFAIK sodium metabisulf*A*te doesn't exist.
> 2) If you added your chemicals as described, you would have got a lot of off-gassing and wasted most of your chlorine(in addition to exposing yourself to a toxic gas).
> 3) You don't mention your pH, but I would guess it was well below 2.5. This is the (approximate) point at which iron compounds are dissolved, and
> 4) A yellow "dipstick" does not necessarily indicate gold. Under your circumstances I would guess you probably have iron salts in solution.
> ...


Thank you for being precise with your answer. I truly appreciate the time you have used to help a laymen such as myself. From here; I have some leftover gold chloride from my batch. I think I may have used to little hydrochloric acid, I also may not have diluted my sodium meta bisulfate enough (it was lumpy) from there I think I'll be fine. Thanx again for sharing your expertise on this matter. Good day sir and have a pleasant weekend.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 17, 2014)

Gratilla said:


> 1) Sodium metabisulf*I*te is the correct precipitant; AFAIK sodium metabisulf*A*te doesn't exist.


Tell that to Graham Chemicals...
http://www.grahamchemical.com/sodium-metabisulfate

Göran


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## Gratilla (Oct 18, 2014)

Oh, oh.

Sodium metabisulfite Na2S2O5 CAS: 7681-57-4
Sodium metabisulfate Na2S2O6 CAS: 7631-94-9

Curiously, many use the two interchangeably (in error) and spellcheckers, including the forum spellchecker, flag the latter as an error. Hmmm.


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## Harold_V (Oct 18, 2014)

Gratilla said:


> Curiously, many use the two interchangeably (in error)


Yep. That's the endless fight we have with readers, here. Improper use of words, leading others to replicate the same stupid mistakes, over and over. It is for that reason that we try to discourage posting misinformation, whether inadvertently, or by design. 

We have encouraged readers to be specific, to not use text lingo, and to be factual in posting. Anything less tends to lead readers down the wrong path. 

Harold


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## dragoneproducts (Oct 22, 2014)

nickvc said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > Btw. some minerals contain elements and compounds that can evolve deadly toxines when treated chemically or be toxic themselves as a dust.
> ...



Hopefully I can take you thru a step by step process of my alchemy.
#1 I began with some ore that I found in Plumas county CA.
#2 I brought the ore back home and crushed it to dust size.
#3 I read and studied most of the leeching processes; via the internet and from some previous knowledge.
#4 I decided on the chloride process and bought 31% hydrochloric acid and standard bleach.
#5 I measured my ore amount, a large amount; did a 2:1 ratio with bleach and then doubled that with hydrochloric acid. (making a 6:1 ratio of solution and ore.)
#6 I poured the bleach over the ore dust and subsequently; poured the hydrochloric acid into the mix.
#7 I received a reaction and let it set. I did not apply my reagent until yesterday, which was three days after I had mixed my solution.
#8 After receiving my stump out, which is defined as 98% sodium disulfite, I poured the diluted (simple bottled spring water; not distilled ) solution into my filtered aqueous solution, got a reaction, a deep red to black color, and let it sit over night. (Thinking it was exactly what I wanted to see)
#9 I checked on my solution this morning 10/22/2014 and there was literally nothing there, some scattered orangy-red color floating, clear solution, but nothing precipitated.
#10 Obviously I have done almost everything wrong that I possibly can with this. As it is with science most lessons are a trial and error process.

You mentioned in your post; that the solution would go bad after approximately 24 hours. Aside from all of the other mistakes, do you think my solution went bad? Does that mean the nano-gold no longer exists? Can the solution be re-invigorated? 

The layman beats himself again.....
Incidentally; the attachment is the ore I am processing....


Hey everyone; thanx for replying and helping; Cheers to all............


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## Irons (Oct 22, 2014)

That looks like a pretty straightforward ore to Assay. You will find it much cheaper to pay to have an Assay done, than to waste chemicals trying to do it yourself, at least until you get some experience. Send out part of it, and when the results come back, try and replicate them.


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## nickvc (Oct 22, 2014)

Oh my..
Nano gold exactly what do you mean by that... Gold either exists or doesn't its not an element that can be missed in a decent assay, if your talking alchemy your really in the wrong place, we are scientists or try to be and don't believe in the fantasies!


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## galenrog (Oct 22, 2014)

I am curious, before you came to GRF, where did you get your information? Making a decision on recovery method prior to assay is both foolish and expensive, with results that are usually disappointing.

Here are a few questions that need to be answered before you bring out the chemicals again:

Does this rock contain gold?

How was that determined?

What is the makeup of the rock?

What elements or compounds are present that would lead to a particular recovery method?

Once you have answered these, then it may be time to move forward, if the answers show that you have taken the advice given in previous comments.


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## Harold_V (Oct 23, 2014)

dragoneproducts said:


> Hopefully I can take you thru a step by step process of my alchemy.


I see that Nick has already made mention of alchemy, and that it is not an acceptable term to be used on this board. Do pay attention to what he says. We do not support witchcraft here, nor do we allow such discussion, as it tends to undermine credibility. 

You really need to rethink what you're doing. If no one has said it before (seems like I have), I'll say it here and now, and please accept my comments in the spirit they are being offered. Only a fool pursues an unknown ore, especially by using acid. The constituents of the ore will generally readily deplete all the acid you throw at the project, creating a huge volume of toxic waste, and no values. Beyond that, you must come to terms with reality in that an ore that yields an ounce per ton is considered high grade material. If you're processing a few pounds, even if there's gold present, how much do you expect to recover? 

A fire assay is in order. I strongly recommend you get one. 

Harold


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## bswartzwelder (Oct 23, 2014)

There are things other than gold which will turn rocks yellow/brown/golden in color. Iron is one and pyrites are another. Iron Pyrite is commonly referred to as "Fools Gold". It is often found in the same places where gold is found.


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## Killingo (Nov 14, 2014)

Hi ,am using heapleaching gold recovery method,but after pouring ore in the tank and add cyanide to dissolute gold,copper and sulphur tends to consume all CN and the solution change into BLUE that indicates the presence of copper in the ore,What chemical should i use to weakening or destroy {pre-treating } copper in my slurry before the addition of cyanide ?


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## Gratilla (Nov 14, 2014)

Sodium or Calcium Hypochlorite (NaClO or Ca(ClO)2).

For preprocessing, look at Scheiner's work at the USBM.

For complete processing, there are threads and links on this forum.

However, you really need to be familiar with the OCl-, HOCl, Cl2 species and which are dominant at what pH. You'll also need NaCl.

However, keeping the Eh and pH in their respective sweet spots is like William Tell shooting the apple off the boy's head ... ... while riding a skateboard.

*IMPORTANT: IF YOU'RE PREPROCESSING WITH THE ABOVE, YOUR SOLUTION WILL BE ACIDIC AND YOU WILL NEED TO RECTIFY TO HIGH pH BEFORE YOU ADD YOUR CYANIDE*.

BTW, I see you're in Tanzania, in which case you might like to take a look at Mintek's IGOLI process.


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