# Making Sodium Nitrate ?



## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

Hello guys,
I found a formula on the net about making Sodium Nitrate with Calcium Nitrate.
It goes as follow:

2NaHCO3 + Ca(NO3)2 => 2NaNO3 + CaCO3 + H20 + CO2

NaHCO3 is sodium bicarbonate which is easy to get. The only thing is, the solubility NaHCO3 is low... about 7 grams at 20°C...

I was just wondering if it would work or if I should look into something else...

Thanks


----------



## aflacglobal (Dec 21, 2007)

Now that's interesting.

I would like to know that answer to.

:?:


----------



## Lou (Dec 21, 2007)

It would work, but you'd get Ca(HCO3)2, there's no acid to make CO2.

Why not use sodium carbonate? It's much more soluble in water and gives insoluble calcium carbonate (chalk) as precipitate?


----------



## Irons (Dec 21, 2007)

Also known as Washing Soda. It's available at the grocery store.

If you want to make Sodium Nitrate from Ammonium Nitrate, just react the Ammonium Nitrate with Sodium Hydroxide and boil off the Ammonia.

Both Sodium Hydroxide or Carbonate are likely to contain Sodium Chloride, so if you're trying to make a Chloride free Nitric Acid, it probably is pointless. Using the Calcium Hydroxide solves the problem because it is almost insoluble and any Chloride can be leached out if there is any at all.

The other choice is to man up an buy reagent grade chemicals.

The stingy man pays the most.


----------



## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

I do not have any Ammonium Nitrate since it's restricted.

Alright, I will look into some washing soda  The best solubility is at 40°C, you get about 50 grams in 100ml of water.

So the reaction will be this:

Na2CO3 + Ca(NO3)2 => 2NaNO3 + CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

I'll give it a try. 8) 

Thanks guys.


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 21, 2007)

Noxx,

Great idea to convert the Ca(NO3)2 into NaNO3! 8) 

Here's a way to use your left overs from the original cold sodium nitrate nitric acid recipe and incorporate your Ca(NO3)2 idea into the loop.

This new method requires 170 gm of Sodium Nitrate to start the ball rolling, but thereafter you use your Calcium Nitrate along with the Sodium Sulfate left overs to reform the Sodium Nitrate, no Sodium Carbonate required. :wink: 

Here goes:

Cold Nitric Acid Production using Ca(NO3)2, H2SO4, and NaNO3

Reaction #1

1) Bring 100 mL distilled H2O to a rolling boil (100 C)
2) Remove the H2O from the heat
3) Add 170 gm of NaNO3 into the 100 mL of hot distilled H2O with constant stirring until fully dissolved
4) Add 56 ml 98% H2SO4 in small portions to the niter solution with stirring, DO NOT let the solution boil
5) Let solution cool to room temperature (DO NOT skip this step or your reaction vessel may shatter!!)
6) Place reaction vessel into freezer or in a salted ice water bath until the solution temperature reaches -5 C
7) Let solution set for 30 minutes at -5 C
8} Pour or siphon off the liquid nitric acid while cold
9) Resultant salt is Na2SO4 and can be dried and used to convert Calcium Nitrate Ca(NO3)2 into more Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3) for next batch.

Reaction #2

Second batch using Ca(NO3)2 :

1) Heat 600 ml of distilled H2O to 33 C in a 2 Liter beaker (beaker #1)
2) Pour 300 mL of the warm water into a 1 Liter beaker (beaker #2)
3) Maintain the temperature of both beakers at 33 C while performing the next steps
4) Slowly add 183 grams of Ca(NO3)2 mono-hydrate to the warm water in beaker #2 with stirring until fully dissolved (adjust amount for higher hydrates)
5) Slowly add 142 grams of anhydrous Na2SO4 from step # 9 in reaction #1 (adjust amount for higher hydrates) to the warm water in beaker #1 with stirring until fully dissolved.
6) When all solids are dissolved add the contents of beaker #2 to beaker #1 with stirring maintaining the temperature at 33 C
7) After the two beakers contents have been combined cool beaker #1 until the temperature reaches 0 C for 30 minutes
8} Vaccuum filter off the liquid from the cold solution
9) The solid that remains in the filter is Calcium Sulfate and should weigh between 136 and 145 grams when dry
10) The liquid contains two moles of sodium nitrate (~170 grams)
11) Evaporate this liquid down to 350 mL 
12) Filter out any solids that may have formed
13) Evaporate down to 175 mL
14) Use this hot liquid (95 C +) in reaction #1 starting at step #4 above to make more nitric acid. If you are going to store the Sodium Nitrate just evaporate it all the way down or keep the volume at ~350 mL until you are ready to concentrate it for use in reaction #1, step #4.

Here's your equations (excluding waters):

2NaNO3(aq) + H2SO4(l) --> 2HNO3(aq) + Na2SO4(s)

Ca(NO3)2(aq) + Na2SO4(aq) --> CaSO4(s) + 2 NaNO3(aq)

Let me know how it turns out as I just developed this reaction on paper for you this morning.

Good Luck,

Steve


----------



## Irons (Dec 21, 2007)

Is much less hazardous than filtering Nitric.

If you can get Ammonium Nitrate, it can save a few steps by converting it directly with Sodium Hydroxide without first converting it to Calcium Nitrate.

It's good to know more than one way to skin a skunk.


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 21, 2007)

Irons,

As you mentioned there are numerous ways to skin the skunk.  

I think Noxx is already sitting on a big bag of Calcium Nitrate and wants to squeeze the nitric out if it. 

I think he also has a good supply line of the Calcium Nitrate at a reasonable price.

By using his leftovers from the cold nitric acid reaction he can have a continual supply of nitric acid from Calcium Nitrate and conc. Sulfuric acid.

It would be nice to close the supply loop completely by getting the sulfate back out of the Calcium Sulfate and make more Sulfuric acid. :idea: 

Something to ponder..

Steve


----------



## Irons (Dec 21, 2007)

I think it would be easier to make a Sulfuric Acid plant. Anybody have any virgin auto catalyst?

Sulfur is very cheap.

S+O2=SO2

2SO2+O2=2SO3

SO3+H2O=H2SO4


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 21, 2007)

Irons, 

Here's a formula from wiki:

Sulfur dioxide is a by-product in the manufacture of cement: CaSiO3 and CaSO4 is heated with coke and sand in this process:

2 CaSO4(s) + 2SiO2(s) + C(s) → 2 CaSiO3(s) + 2 SO2(g) + CO2(g) 


Could be a starting point with sand and carbon? You would even end up with cement. No telling how hot the above reaction has to get.

On second thought, Sulfuric acid is cheap. :wink: 

Steve


----------



## Irons (Dec 21, 2007)

Some day, you can figure out how to make Dry Wall and build yourself a house. :wink:


----------



## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

Exactly... I still have the big bag of Calcium Nitrate 
But how can I make it anhydrous ? Should I heat it in the over ? Anyone got an idea of the temp I can reach before it melts/decomposes ?

I'll give it a try in a few days and post the video.

Thanks guys


----------



## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

Irons said:


> Some day, you can figure out how to make Dry Wall and build yourself a house. :wink:



Are you talking about the Plaster of Paris ? :lol: 
Very impossible to filter when in solution lol.


----------



## Irons (Dec 21, 2007)

All you have to do is heat the Calcium Sulfate to drive off the water of hydration, grind it up and you have Plaster of Paris.

Now, there's a money maker for 'ya. :lol:


----------



## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

Ok, I answered my question, Calcium Nitrate can be dried when heated from 130°C to 400°C. It decomposes at around 500°C



> Then thoroughly dry the calcium nitrate at temperatures between 130 and 400 degrees centigrade. (400°C is grey glow, red glow is above 500°C) This is important as higher temperatures(red glow) will decompose the calcium nitrate, developing highly poisonous nitrogen dioxide.



http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/cano3.html


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 21, 2007)

Noxx,

There's no need to dry the Ca(NO3)2, water isn't going to be a big factor in getting the sodium nitrate to form. Just be sure to adjust the amount of calcium nitrate you add to the mix by the increase in combined water weight (ie: 4 x 18 = 72 grams per mole more if you have Ca(NO3)2 * 4 H2O).

Steve


----------



## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

I know Steve,
The only thing is, the composition of Calcium Nitrate is not constant. I mean, we don't know how much water is bond with it. Ca(NO3)2 * xH2O
I want to dehydrate it (only a few grams) to know the exact amount of water.

Thanks


----------



## aflacglobal (Dec 21, 2007)

Noxx said:


> Irons said:
> 
> 
> > Some day, you can figure out how to make Dry Wall and build yourself a house. :wink:
> ...



It's that american humor again Noxx.

He meant if you were going to go to the trouble of trying to make every product instead of buying it why not just make your own drywall and build you a house at the same time.


----------



## Lou (Dec 21, 2007)

Irons said:


> I think it would be easier to make a Sulfuric Acid plant. Anybody have any virgin auto catalyst?
> 
> Sulfur is very cheap.
> 
> ...




I've actually made sulfuric acid before from sulfur trioxide. It worked well, but there are many engineering and specialty problems, and SO3 is extremely dangerous.

Vanadium pentoxide with a small amount of potassium sulfate on a ceramic substrate is what's used industrially, it's also what I used. I still have the reaction tube I used. If you have a cheap source of SO2 and a tube furnace, you can make sulfuric acid of any concentration (and even oleums) quite simply. Burning sulfur to make your SO2 would be the best, as sulfur is really cheap! Still, it's very hazardous and really best left to industry.


As far as your reaction goes Steve, that won't work for sulfuric acid unless you further oxidize the SO2 gas to SO3 (+6), the acid anhydride of H2SO4. Doable with the above method. (edit*)

At really high temperatures, calcium sulfate decomposes into lime (CaO) and sulfur trioxide, but that's about 1300*C so it's thermally impractical.

edit: sorry Steve, sometimes I just get going . The contact process does work nicely if you want really high strength sulfuric acid.


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 21, 2007)

Lou said:


> As far as your reaction goes Steve, that won't work for sulfuric acid unless you further oxidize the SO2 gas to SO3 (+6), the acid anhydride of H2SO4.



The fact that you need SO3 to make sulfuric acid is a well known given. I was just pointing this out as a first step to using the raw materials available from the reaction at hand. 

Kinda meant the whole sulfuric acid thing as a joke anyway...



Lazersteve said:


> On second thought, Sulfuric acid is cheap. :wink:



Steve


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 21, 2007)

Noxx said:


> The only thing is, the composition of Calcium Nitrate is not constant. I mean, we don't know how much water is bond with it. Ca(NO3)2 * xH2O
> I want to dehydrate it (only a few grams) to know the exact amount of water.



Excellent point Noxx. 

Sorry I misunderstood your intentions.

Steve


----------



## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

aflacglobal said:


> It's that american humor again Noxx.
> 
> He meant if you were going to go to the trouble of trying to make every product instead of buying it why not just make your own drywall and build you a house at the same time.



Oh lol. I taught he was talking about the resulting salt when you make nitric acid with Calcium Nitrate and sulfuric acid. CaSO4 is Plaster of Paris and it is used to make walls. 

Oops... :lol:


----------



## Irons (Dec 23, 2007)

aflacglobal said:


> Noxx said:
> 
> 
> > Irons said:
> ...



Just good natured fun. I laugh at myself more than anything.

as the Amish say:

Too soon old, too late smart.


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2008)

why not just use the sulfuric directly with the CaNO3?


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 28, 2008)

James, 

When adding the sulfuric acid to Calcium Nitrate the Calcium Sulfate formed is very absorbent and tends to suck up all the liquids. This coupled with the heat of the reaction, causes the resulting nitric acid to go up in vapors as it is formed, or to be absorbed by the Calcium Sulfate. The result is that your nitric literally gets trapped in the mix or goes up in smoke. 

The Calcium Nitrate reaction would work fine if you don't mind distilling the mixture in the proper glassware setup, but for a quick and easy method it is not as straight forward as the cold Sodium Nitrate routine.

Steve


----------



## Lou (Mar 28, 2008)

Even distilling the calcium nitrate in a proper setup is not ideal: the calcium sulfate (essentially plaster) formed is hell to remove! It does give more nitric acid though...


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2008)

Steve, what if you did not want concentrated nitric, say end product 20 percent or something, CaSO4 is nearly insoluble right?


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 28, 2008)

James,

When this question was asked earlier today, I set up a spreadsheet which calculates the various reactants and products of the Sodium Nitrate Method and the Calcium Nitrate Method. I actually learned something very interesting from the spreadsheet. I need to review it a little more before posting it, but I'll post it soon.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2008)

Steve, I found something about using oxalic acid but could not remember what thread this was one so I started a new topic but if someone with the power wanted to move it to this thread at his convience it most likely would fit better. :lol:


----------



## steveonmars (Apr 30, 2008)

Noxx said:


> Hello guys,
> I found a formula on the net about making Sodium Nitrate with Calcium Nitrate.
> It goes as follow:
> 
> ...




Hi,

Just wondering why you would want to make this, whats it used for?

Still trying to learn more.

Steve


----------



## lazersteve (Apr 30, 2008)

Sodium Nitrate is a convienent starting material for making nitric acid. 

Calcium Nitrate is cheap, holds twice as much nitric, but forms super absorbant calcium sulfate when used directly in the nitric acid reation instead of sodium nitirate. So it is desireable to convert the cheap calcium nitirate into sodium nitrate before making your nitric acid.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous (Apr 30, 2008)

What if you were only going for dilute nitric, maybe you could get away with going straight for the calcium nitrate.

Jim


----------



## lazersteve (May 1, 2008)

Unfortunately the calcium sulfate formed is so absorbent that twice the water still doesn't help. 

You can convert the calcium nitrate to sodium nitrate using the leftover sodium sulfate from the original nitric acid reaction using sodium nitrate.

This is all outline in my updated nitric acid recipe found here:

Closing the Nitric Loop

I currently working on a simple way to recycle the copper nitrate formed after you use the nitric acid to dissolve copper items.

Steve


----------



## steveonmars (May 1, 2008)

Thanks Steve

I've been wodering where to get nitric since everyone seems to say it's hard to find and expensive.

I'll start with watching your video to see if it's even an option for me at this point or maybe just stick with HCL for now. I know there's other threads on making nitric so I can do my research first. i'm taking everything real slow until I learn more but I'm getting there thanks to all of you guys here. I'm disabled and can't work so I've got a lot of time to study this stuff and learn before I dive in. Everthing I've done so far is working fine by following all of your tips and especially your videos, Steve. If I didn't find this site I never would have gotten anywhere.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## Yggdrasil (Apr 1, 2016)

Hi!
I realize this thread has been slow for some time, but I'll give it a go anyway.

Getting Sodium/Potassium Nitrate.

Here it is very hard to get Nitric Acid or Sodium/Potassium/Ammonium Nitrate due to someones previous misuse :-(
Calcium Nitrate seems to be more accessible. 
But according to what I see in the forum it is not very well suited for generating Nitric Acid in a practical way.

I found a formula on Google which runs like this: 2Na3PO4 + 3Ca(NO3)2--->6NaNO3 + Ca3(PO4)2

If we can get rid of the Calcium Phosphate after the reaction this could be a way for some of us, since Sodium Phosphate is widely used as an antioxidant in the food industry.

Anybody with Ideas , inputs or comments?


----------



## bmgold2 (Apr 2, 2016)

I looked for a better thread to post this in but, since it got bumped anyway, this is as good a place as any.

This is just something I found online and I never tried it but it sounds interesting. Ammonium nitrate seems to be discouraged here as a way to make nitric acid especially for silver but this might be useful or interesting to some here.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13181



> A Unique Synthesis of Ammonium Nitrate
> 
> 
> In lieu of the general lack of ammonium nitrate availability in my area, I have devised a process which utilizes dollar-store items for the easy manufacture of relatively clean ammonium nitrate. I thought I'd share it with the rest of the forum in the event that someone else was also in my situation.
> ...



I haven't researched enough to know if another nitrate (like potassium nitrate) could be substituted and still get ammonium nitrate. What really sounded interesting was the cheap powdered drain cleaner. I would have expected the lye but never thought there might be sodium nitrate which should work for DIY nitric or AR without needing to make ammonium nitrate. The sodium hydroxide would be worth saving too. That is assuming it is as easy to separate the 3 ingredients as the quote above makes it sound.

I checked the MSDS for Draino crystals (probably similar to the cheap unclogger) and it does list both sodium nitrate and sodium hydroxide. Along with those two wanted chemicals, it also lists aluminum flakes AND SODIUM CHLORIDE. That last one might cause problems especially if working with silver is the eventual goal.

Just food for thought. Always a good idea to read the contents of common products. You never know when you might find a new source of refining chemicals without the often high shipping cost.

Quick search found another interesting quote. 

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=12597#p125820



> You can still buy calcium nitrate, it's relatively easily to make the calcium nitrate into sodium nitrate by adding baking soda to a calcium nitrate solution. Just add baking soda in portions until no more insoluble calcium carbonate is formed on further addition.



Most of this was copied and pasted. I have no idea if it is even true. Interesting if it is though especially the last one.


----------

