# Expensive Chems



## Anonymous (Apr 1, 2009)

Can anyone tell me if there are any subs for Shor's GC Salt and Storm precipitant? Thanks Thank you I guess there are no substitutes for these. If I find out there is I will pass it on. Goldfinder


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Apr 1, 2009)

Storm Precipitant is hydroquinone....about GC salts Member´s Forum, who know more than me about gold,they can tell...I am sure that they know.Come on,guys of Shor...do not get angry.

Regards


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## Platdigger (Apr 1, 2009)

Interesting Juan.
I am curious how you came to this conclusion.
It looks as though you could be right.

Wiki: "Hydroquinone has a variety of uses principally associated with its action as a reducing agent which is soluble in water. It is a major component in most photographic developers where, with the compound Metol, it reduces silver halides to elemental silver."

It also said it is a white granular solid at room temperature and pressure.


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## Lou (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes, hydroquinone does great work with silver as well as gold. It's self indicating (solution changes colors). Very easy to use (as you see with shor).


Their prices might be a bit much, but they are no worse than any where else for small quantities.


EDIT: Storm actually may be oxalic acid, and the silver precipitant crystals may be hydroquinone? 

Does anyone have any of these products? I can easily tell you how to differentiate between the two with a simple test.


Thanks,

Lou


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 1, 2009)

Juan,

I am also interested in how you came to this conclusion. I know that it's always listed as a reducing agent for gold. In fact, I've mentioned it a couple of times on the forum. However, it's expensive and a little more complicated to use than the sulfites. If I remember right, the gold tends to plate out on everything - beakers, stirrers, etc. It's an ingredient in many photo developers. When analyzing green x-ray film, I used a hydroquinone developer to first convert the silver halides to silver.

Although I haven't seen it, I think the evidence is that the Storm precipitant is sodium metabisulfite, but I've been wrong before. The easiest way to tell would be to smell it.


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## Lou (Apr 1, 2009)

GSP,

I have no idea what it actually is. I imagine they are probably using the hydroquinone for silver. I'm half tempted to order some just to satisfy my curiousity!


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Apr 3, 2009)

Platdigger:

Well,I am the third generation of a family of photographers and my grandfather was preparing his own developers with hydroquinone and other salts for B/W process.When he told me that hydroquinone reduced the silver halide ,who had been exposed to the light,to metallic silver then lighted the fire in my mind about silver recovering.

When I fell into Shor´s clutches I remembered my grandfather´s teaching and did the test with a silver nitrate solution when the Storm Precipitant was finished.

A few months later,thank God,I discovered this wonderful Forum and sent Shor to hell.

This is my story.

Regards.

Manuel


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Apr 3, 2009)

GSP,my Dear Friend:

Yeah...you are right,hydroquinone is a common developer.I did not buy Shor anything for gold refining,but the expensive Storm Precipitant for silver is hydroquinone.Probably gold Sorm Precipitant is sodium metabisulfite or oxalic acid,Shor loves secrecy.

Have anice day.

Your friend

Manuel


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Apr 3, 2009)

Lou:

It is better not to do business with Shor,their confidential chemicals are very expensive,they are going to steal your money.

I have always said it...you are the best organic chemist of this Forum,oxalic acid and hydroquinone are both organic substances...I am sure you know another new and revolutionary alternatives about organic reductants for silver,gold or PGM..Can you tell us about a little bit?

Regards.

Manuel


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## peaksilver2012 (May 31, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Juan,
> 
> Although I haven't seen it, I think the evidence is that the Storm precipitant is sodium metabisulfite, but I've been wrong before. The easiest way to tell would be to smell it.



I have some of the Shor chems and would like to know what they are. How do I tell by smell?

Thanks, Preston


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## peaksilver2012 (May 31, 2009)

Lou said:


> Yes, hydroquinone does great work with silver as well as gold. It's self indicating (solution changes colors). Very easy to use (as you see with shor).
> 
> Does anyone have any of these products? I can easily tell you how to differentiate between the two with a simple test.
> 
> Lou



I have some!! Lou, I'd like to know how to tell what these chemicals are. I bought a Shor system before finding this forum (lesson learned). I'd be happy to send you samples if you'd like.

Thanks, Preston


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## Lou (Jun 1, 2009)

I might just take you up on that, but really, there are easy tests you can do.

One such is adding dilute hydrochloric acid to a gram of the powder outside--if it's a sulfite, it will effervesce and bubble stinky SO2. If it is hydroquinone or oxalic acid, it will just sit on the bottom and do nothing. 

Hydroquinone has two phenolic groups and is fairly acidic, but not nearly as much as oxalic acid. One could test by pH, if you have pH strips or red cabbage to use as indicators, we can differentiate between them. Another test is adding some sodium hydroxide (which will make a chocolately-red phenolate salt which is soluble in water). This is extremely oxygen sensitive. Additions of small amounts of dilute hydrogen peroxide will give the solution a deep brown-yellow. If it is oxalic acid, it will simply dissolve up into solution as it reacts with the sodium hydroxide. If you have any calcium present, a really easy determination can be made. Add the sodium oxalate solution to any calcium solution and it will precipitate calcium oxalate (same thing as in kidney stones). 


I can clarify this all if you'd like.


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## peter i (Jun 2, 2009)

It is very simple: I was curious too, and dug up the MSDS.
(Always check the MSDS!)

It is sodium hydrogen sulphite ("SMB") as you say, and upon contact with acid it will release sulphur dioxide that will in turn reduce the gold-ions to metallic gold.

You don't even have to add acid, even when just dissolved in warm water, the smell of SO2 is quite strong.




Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:


> GSP,my Dear Friend:
> 
> Yeah...you are right,hydroquinone is a common developer.I did not buy Shor anything for gold refining,but the expensive Storm Precipitant for silver is hydroquinone.*Probably gold Sorm Precipitant is sodium metabisulfite* or oxalic acid,Shor loves secrecy.
> 
> ...


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## Oz (Jun 2, 2009)

Peter,

I keep my SMB dry in an airtight container and sometimes it is strong enough with SO2 that it makes me gag a bit when I open it. There is no water or acid needed and I wouldn’t want to stick my nose in it and intentionally take a whiff.


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## peter i (Jun 2, 2009)

Oz said:


> Peter,
> 
> I keep my SMB dry in an airtight container and sometimes it is strong enough with SO2 that it makes me gag a bit when I open it. There is no water or acid needed and I wouldn’t want to stick my nose in it and intentionally take a whiff.



I agree on that one! And the dust in itself is quite an irritant too.

(unless you go to extremes, water has a way of appearing everywhere, and that goes for closed plastic containers too)


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## Platdigger (Jun 2, 2009)

OK, Sodium hydrogen sulphite: Sodium bisulfite, not sodium "meta" bisulfite but works the same for what we are doing .......right?

I don't think the "GC" salt would be as easy to figure. I believe it has ammonium chloride and probably some sodium chloride, but not sure what else, or in what proportions.

If we were to figure it out, wouldn't this be an infrigment on their patent to publish it?
Randy


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## peter i (Jun 2, 2009)

Platdigger said:


> OK, Sodium hydrogen sulphite: Sodium bisulfite, not sodium "meta" bisulfite but works the same for what we are doing .......right?
> 
> I don't think the "GC" salt would be as easy to figure. I believe it has ammonium chloride and probably some sodium chloride, but not sure what else, or in what proportions.
> 
> ...



If they had a patent, there would be no reason to hide it :mrgreen: 

If a sample ended up in the hands of me or Lou, a combination og powder X-ray diffraction and X-ray flourescense should give a good guess.

(No wonder the ........ hide the MSDS!)


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## martyem (Jan 16, 2020)

Bonide Stump Remover is SMB = sodium metabisulfite. Look it up in google. The active ingredient in Bonide Stump Out is sodium metabisulfite. Some chemical stump removers use potassium nitrate, but Bonide says there is no potassium nitrate in Stump Out. Use it only on stumps dead for more than a year.


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