# HOW DO GOLD REFINERY MAKE MONEY? Who are their buyers?



## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

Im a newbie and wonder about the Gold Food Chain. LOL My questions is 
When people sell their gold to refinery the refinery seems to never run out of cash to pay seller for gold. They will buy as much as they can collect from sellers. How is this so! How is the refinery making money! Who are they reselling to ????


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## Harold_V (May 16, 2008)

They sell to all consumers of gold, and sell over spot. The don't sell pure gold alone, but processed metals, plating solutions, casting grain, bar stock, fabricating stock, solders and pretty much anything you can imagine that relates to not only gold, but precious metals in general. 

By paying less than spot, plus charging fees, to say nothing of values that are not reported or out and out stolen from customers, they do just fine. It shouldn't strike you, or anyone, strange, that they have a bottomless pit of money. 

Having had personal experiences with a few of the recognized refiners, I know all too well how crooked they are. You might not believe some of the names, one of which you are likely to know exceedingly well. 

Harold


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

harold i sent you a message in your inbox. 

So my next question is HOW do they keep a bottomless pit of money?

Who are there buyers?


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

Harold_V said:


> They sell to all consumers of gold, and sell over spot. The don't sell pure gold alone, but processed metals, plating solutions, casting grain, bar stock, fabricating stock, solders and pretty much anything you can imagine that relates to not only gold, but precious metals in general.
> 
> By paying less than spot, plus charging fees, to say nothing of values that are not reported or out and out stolen from customers, they do just fine. It shouldn't strike you, or anyone, strange, that they have a bottomless pit of money.
> 
> ...



How can a refinery be crooked?


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## Andrew W (May 16, 2008)

ladypop said:


> How can a refinery be crooked?


The amount of pure gold that they _claim _they recover from your items might actually be less than the *true *amount they recover.

That's why it's a good idea to try and calculate the total amount of pure gold in your items before sending it to them. You can get a very close estimate when calculating karat jewelry, but it's not so accurate for things like gold filled, rolled, plated, or unrefined electronic scrap.


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

Andrew W said:


> ladypop said:
> 
> 
> > How can a refinery be crooked?
> ...




Hello andrew thanks for the reply know my next question is this. If i have gold that melted but unrefined i know gold when you get it striaght from the gold it can be mixed of many different karats but the majority of the collect gold is 23 and 22 very little. If i have a kilo of soild melted gold. How much do you think a HONEST refinery should cliam. Est. Im curious?

And how much do you think i should lose once smelted refined and assay?


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## Noxx (May 16, 2008)

You have a kilo of 22k gold ? :shock: 
Anyways, this means you have 916,6 grams of pure gold. 
If you deal with a refiner that takes 10% (like I do) then you'd end up with
825,0 grams. (916,6 grams - 91.6 grams).

You also have to consider shipping costs if you have to mail your gold. You don't wanna mail 1 kilo of gold uninsured lol.


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

Noxx said:


> You have a kilo of 22k gold ? :shock:
> Anyways, this means you have 916,6 grams of pure gold.
> If you deal with a refiner that takes 10% (like I do) then you'd end up with
> 825,0 grams. (916,6 grams - 91.6 grams).
> ...



Yes but my friend walks his gold to the refinery himself. He always flys with his gold never mail in! My question is is there a better way for him to profit. Since some refinerys fiddle the numbers.


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## agpodt77339 (May 16, 2008)

I haven't dealt with them yet, but ARA (http://www.aragold.com/about.nxg) pays 98% without other fees for gold. They also pay 90% for silver. Maybe some other members have used them, and can give some feedback.


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

ladypop said:


> Noxx said:
> 
> 
> > You have a kilo of 22k gold ? :shock:
> ...



i wanted to mention the refiinery he goes to pays him 97% the value of his gold. Basically they work on a 3% margin.


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

agpodt77339 said:


> I haven't dealt with them yet, but ARA (http://www.aragold.com/about.nxg) pays 98% without other fees for gold. They also pay 90% for silver. Maybe some other members have used them, and can give some feedback.



Thanks Im on the phone with them right now! and they are NUTS ! they told me that i would lose 54 penny weight . that cant be right if i have gold that been tested at 3 places all say the prurity is 22.7 kt. 

MY QUESTION IS: IF I HAVE 2 kilo @ 22.7 kt MELTED into bars currently. How much will i lose once refined. ????


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## Andrew W (May 16, 2008)

ladypop said:


> MY QUESTION IS: IF I HAVE 2 kilo @ 22.7 kt MELTED into bars currently. How much will i lose once refined. ????


Are you asking how much of that 2kg isn't gold?

2kg = 2000g
2000g x (22.7kt / 24kt) = 1891.6g pure gold in your 2kg of bars
2000g-1891.6g=108.4g that's not gold


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

Andrew W said:


> ladypop said:
> 
> 
> > MY QUESTION IS: IF I HAVE 2 kilo @ 22.7 kt MELTED into bars currently. How much will i lose once refined. ????
> ...



thanks i clearly understand now. that was a great break down! 

my other question is this: For someone who has acess to gold. WOuld it be best if i had a refinery sponsor me refinery funds the gold buying and basically i bring them unlimited amounts of gold for them and i make a percentage commission for doing so. OR Is it best that i be a one man band. And continue to just cash in with the refinery my own gold.


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## ALPHABiT (May 16, 2008)

> thanks i clearly understand now. that was a great break down!
> 
> my other question is this: For someone who has acess to gold. WOuld it be best if i had a refinery sponsor me refinery funds the gold buying and basically i bring them unlimited amounts of gold for them and i make a percentage commission for doing so. OR Is it best that i be a one man band. And continue to just cash in with the refinery my own gold.



Risks...

-If you buy yourself and sell YOUR gold, risk is u can loose your gold. (many reasons)

-If you take a fee like a sponsor, risk to be jumped or for any reason unpaid.

First 2 things i tought... But there are many other scenarios for sure.


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## ladypop (May 16, 2008)

ALPHABiT said:


> > thanks i clearly understand now. that was a great break down!
> >
> > my other question is this: For someone who has acess to gold. WOuld it be best if i had a refinery sponsor me refinery funds the gold buying and basically i bring them unlimited amounts of gold for them and i make a percentage commission for doing so. OR Is it best that i be a one man band. And continue to just cash in with the refinery my own gold.
> 
> ...



I dont understand what you mean can you break this down....RISK to be jumped!!!!! unpaid!!! Risj you can loose your gold


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## ALPHABiT (May 17, 2008)

Loosing... If you manage gold in your hand... thiefs can take it, for example.
Jumping you... Means who buy can go directly to who is selling from 2nd time bypassing you.
Unpaid... When you work on fees, for many reasons and many times who must pay you fees cannot pay you, or dont wont to pay you anymore.

Working risks, how do you call in english ?


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## Irons (May 17, 2008)

ALPHABiT said:


> Loosing... If you manage gold in your hand... thiefs can take it, for example.
> Jumping you... Means who buy can go directly to who is selling from 2nd time bypassing you.
> Unpaid... When you work on fees, for many reasons and many times who must pay you fees cannot pay you, or dont wont to pay you anymore.
> 
> Working risks, how do you call in english ?



You hire a couple of big Russians. They work cheap.


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## goldsilverpro (May 17, 2008)

22.7K is a strange number. What is the source of the gold? Most Oriental gold marked 22K is a little less. Did you refine it to that point? How was it tested? Touchstone? Fire assay? How was it sampled (very important)?


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## ALPHABiT (May 19, 2008)

> You hire a couple of big Russians. They work cheap.



Ehm.. Here in Italy no Big Russians can "compete" with some kind of people... Ehm...

 LOL.


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## Irons (May 19, 2008)

ALPHABiT said:


> > You hire a couple of big Russians. They work cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ma Familia, Gypsies, Romanians and the occasional Libyan. Lots to choose from. 8)

The fact is you can't trust anyone. Even honest people will talk and eventually, criminals will hear of it and then it's just a matter of time........


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## thteh (Mar 25, 2009)

Wow Noxx, 10% is so much profit so lucrative a refining business in Canada. Over here (in Malaysia) the refining fee is around 1.5% or even usd5/oz. In fact, I just receive a fee quote of 1.5% today. Should you receive too much orders to handle you can always send them here...sort of like subcontracting business I mean..provided your customers there can wait for its delivery...


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## Noxx (Mar 25, 2009)

thteh,

Your quote is good but as Harold said, I would remain careful. Some (a lot) refiners are there to make money only.

With my 10% margin but a low volume, I don't make a lot of money compared to the time I spend. But what I gain is experience and clients.

I'm just saying to be careful.


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## Harold_V (Mar 25, 2009)

Noxx said:


> With my 10% margin but a low volume, I don't make a lot of money compared to the time I spend. But what I gain is experience and clients.



For small lot custom refining, the 10% fee is very acceptable. You don't get rich, but it does encourage customers. Here in the US, there wasn't one of my customers that didn't feel like my fee was not cheaper than sending their values to major refiners, where, on the surface, things look good, but by the time they have collected all of their fees, you have paid far more than 10%. I dropped down to 8% for lots greater than 10 troy ounces. I also charged more for processing low grade wastes, such as floor sweeps and polishing wastes materials, which require more work. For those, I charged 15%. I feel I earned the money. 

Harold


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## 4metals (Apr 12, 2009)

Harold
Did you process your sweeps in acid after incineration or melt them with flux and copper, and then refine or did you just ship prepared sweeps to a smelter who pays on assay?


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## aflacglobal (Apr 12, 2009)

4metals said:


> Harold
> Did you process your sweeps in acid after incineration or melt them with flux and copper, and then refine or did you just ship prepared sweeps to a smelter who pays on assay?



:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1253&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## Harold_V (Apr 13, 2009)

4metals said:


> Harold
> Did you process your sweeps in acid after incineration or melt them with flux and copper, and then refine or did you just ship prepared sweeps to a smelter who pays on assay?


I processed (my polishing wastes and floor sweeps) with acid. A heavy boil in HCl after incineration and careful screening, then AR to extract values. Key to success was the HCl boil, which would yield a solution that was amenable to filtration. Polishing wastes that are processed with nitric tend to yield gold chloride that is difficult to filter. When I had to use nitric, it was used to extract silver and other base metals, then I'd incinerate and do the HCl wash next. It was always worth the extra trouble. 

You don't get a perfect recovery, but you get the vast majority. I kept my fee reasonable (15%), so the overall deal was respectable for the owner. I did not combine batches, choosing to run individual lots, which avoided assaying. It sounds bush league, but I had a serious following, with customers in several states. When I sold my business, I had more work than I could accomplish in twelve hour days, working seven days/week. I took work away from many of the known major refiners, so my fees must have been very competitive, if not down right cheaper. 

For the record, I ran the residues in my agitation tank (cyanide) after processing, to recover traces that may have escaped, then they (the residues) were sold to a refinery in Sparks, Nevada, now defunct. They processed with litharge, so they could recover minute traces. I sold a few 55 gallon drums of processed materials when I closed my doors. It was worth the trip to Sparks, a 500 mile drive one way. 

As an added note, if your question revolved around processing bench sweeps (filings), they were incinerated, boiled in nitric, then dissolved direclty with AR. I sent nothing to major refiners aside from selling platinum and palladium. I never had a problem selling my gold for spot, and often couldn't supply what was needed. 

Hope that anwers your question. I'm open to further discussion if I missed the boat. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (May 18, 2009)

ladypop if u have 2 kilos of 22karat then u would loose at least that much because of alloy in material. refiners refine to pure then pay and ARA is the only refiner I've ever found that really is HONEST and Ive been in the pawnshop business for 30 years


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## Anonymous (Mar 20, 2010)

agpodt77339 said:


> I haven't dealt with them yet, but ARA (http://www.aragold.com/about.nxg) pays 98% without other fees for gold. They also pay 90% for silver. Maybe some other members have used them, and can give some feedback.


Hello all! I exclusively use ARA out of Dallas, and they are great! I am new to the game of refining, but I have been completely happy of my settlements. They have helped me alot on how to calculate my buys to make sure that I don't lose. The don't have any hidden fees that I can tell of. John is the rep I deal with and he has help me and told me that they pay a full 98%. They use a acid recovery for Karat gold, and will return all your stones undamaged. Love to work with these guys. 

While I have your attention, could anyone tell me what is a fair price for CPU'S. Like DX486 styles? And assuming that I know what I am doing when recovering, and harvesting CPU's what yield can I expect from 486 type of processors. How much per CPU of gold can I get out of 1? I know that the answers are somewhere in all this great information you provide, but I am having information overload and can't seem to pull out the answers. Any kind of help would be great.

Urban Gold Miner from Texas
Newbie if you have ever seen one!


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 20, 2010)

urbangoldmine said:


> agpodt77339 said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't dealt with them yet, but ARA (http://www.aragold.com/about.nxg) pays 98% without other fees for gold. They also pay 90% for silver. Maybe some other members have used them, and can give some feedback.
> ...



Welcome to the board.

I wouldn't guarantee the yields in this file so be sure and check them aginst what you find. But it will give you a referance to go by.

View attachment Gold content list in CPU chips.xls


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