# Need Silver Nitrate to grow silver crystals



## kadriver (Dec 2, 2010)

I will be using Lazersteves DVD "Silver A to Z" to produce pure silver crystals.

I needed some 9999 fine silver to get my silver cell going so I purchased some fine silver bars for that purpose.

Once I get it going I will always keep the required 100 grams of pure silver crystals to use in the cell.

Here are my questions:

Can I dissolve some 999 fine silver in Nitric Acid and dehydrate and harvest the silver nitrate crystals for my silver cell?

Or

Can I just dissolve 100 grams of 999 fine silver in nitric acid, filter, and use the silver nitrate solution to get my cell going?

Also, where is a good local source for polypropylene cloth for use in the silver cell.

Thanks to all - kadriver


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## lazersteve (Dec 2, 2010)

As long as you don't get sloppy with your copper cementation and leave small bits of copper wire in the silver, you can use cemented silver. 

Steve


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## kadriver (Dec 3, 2010)

OK - thank you for responding.

The fact that I can use carefully cemented silver is good to know.

I already have some 999 silver bars. I would like to use some of these for the electrolyte since I already have them, and I am quite certain that they are 999 fine silver.

I would also like to do an experiment and use some of the bars to make silver nitrate crystals. I would like to make the crystals as pure as I can and save them for later in case I need to make an electrolyte and I run out of pure silver crystals.

Can anyone offer any insight into making the silver nitrate crystals? 

My plan is to dissolve the 999 fine silver bars in the appropriate amount of nitric acid, then filter and put silver nitrate solution in a large glass container with a flat bottom (such as a casserole). I will then form a tent of paper towel over the dish to keep contamination out and leave it alone for a few days to dehydrate.

Would it be possible to put the silver nitrate solution into an oven on low heat to aid in the evaporation of the liquid? Would there be any ill effects to the silver nitrate or the oven? Will excessive heat damage the crystals?

Once the crystals are dry, are there any restrictions on their shelf life, or special strorage requirements?

I can not begin to express how helpful this forum is to a new guy like myself. I am still having trouble believeing that this forum even exists - it is absolutely WONDERFUL!

Thank you - kadriver


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## Harold_V (Dec 3, 2010)

kadriver said:


> I would also like to do an experiment and use some of the bars to make silver nitrate crystals. I would like to make the crystals as pure as I can and save them for later in case I need to make an electrolyte and I run out of pure silver crystals.
> 
> Can anyone offer any insight into making the silver nitrate crystals?


Making crystals is not a problem. Not making them can be! :lol: 

My experience. I dissolved 30 troy ounces of silver in a liter of nitric and a liter of distilled water. Once dissolved, I allowed the solution to cool. Crystal growth was so fast you could watch it happen. 

Understand that when crystals grow, they reject impurities---much the same way water rejects impurities when it freezes. If you have an ice machine that makes ice on a platen, you understand how that works. 

So then, the very fact that you allow crystals to grow is a refining process. Even if you start with alloyed silver, the crystals will grow relatively pure. Contamination is typically by entrapment, but the crystals can then be re-dissolved in hot water, and allowed to cool once again. Each iteration will increase the purity of the recovered silver crystals. 

I can't address drying---I don't have a clue. I can suggest to you that the crystals are likely photosensitive, so they should be stored in a dark amber jar. Excessive heating may reduce the silver nitrate to elemental silver---dunno---you'd have to consult someone that understands chemistry far better than I do. 

Remember, when operating a silver cell, purity of your electrolyte doesn't determine the final outcome unless the electrolyte gets saturated with an element that has the capacity to co-deposit. Otherwise, the traces of impurities that will follow the silver are from drag-down, or from miniscule pockets that may get trapped in the silver. There shouldn't be much of an issue achieving the industry standard of 999. 

Harold


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## kadriver (Dec 4, 2010)

I have 10 troy ounces of 999 fine silver. I will dissolve it in about 340 ml nitric acid and 340 ml distilled water.

Then I will repeat the process as stated above to refine the crystals even further.

I'll store the dried crystals in an amber container and store it in a dark cabinet.

I had some of these crystals grow in an experiment a while back. I had dissolved some 925 silver jewelry in dilute (35%) nitric acid for the purpose of cementing out the silver with a coil of copper wire - (see photo).

Notice that there is blue liquid in with the crystals.

Assuming that i wanted to harvest the crystals in the photo, how should I have gone about doing this? How should this blue liquid be handled - decant? Is is copper nitrate? Should it be saved to recover any silver that did not crystalize?

Once the blue liquid is decanted, should I redissolve in hot distilled water and re-grow the crystals, repeating until there is no more color in the liquid.

How can i rid the contaminants in the silver nitrate - filter after redissolving? I now try to avoid filtering unless absolutely necessary and use the siphon or decant method to remove liquids. I feel this avoids losing any PMs in the filter.

Thank you for the guidance - This is much needed information. It is great to have the experience of others to help avoid making mistakes.

kadriver


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## butcher (Dec 5, 2010)

Try slowly pouring off liquid crystals will stick together, then maybe add some warm water stir, and let sit in chill, decant again. Then if you think you need to you can dissolve and re-crystallize, although I would just use them in cell after rinsing them. I tend to let things sit and settle well and decant, more than I filter.

I have a couple of tools a suction bulb on a syringe, and plastic pipettes, they let me suck out the solution from powders without disturbing powder, then I will add more solution stir let sit and repeat.

The suction bulb syringe is also useful to start ciphering hose.

And a piece of the pipette cut off at bulb, will fit my bulb syringe, allowing me to remove large amount of liquid through a small port this small port will not pull up the settled powder like a bigger opening will, so as to get almost every drop of solution, these work great for transferring liquids, adding small amount of reagents and so on


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi kadriver. There are dozen ways to do "silver", but only a few that are viable commercially in terms of costs and time spent.

If you are out to experiment and tinker and learn, that's fine (that's the part I most like). If you are out to try in small scale something that is scalable bigger and viable commercially in terms of costs and time, that's fine too. Both are valid.

I think you are doing a great service to the forum, documenting with photos everything you are doing to learn.

If you clearly state your goals with regards to silver refining (or anything else), including source and type of material, required fineness of final product, etc. I'm sure you'll get focused help. :idea: 

Love your pictures!.


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## kadriver (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks for all your input.

I purchase 925 & Sterling silver jewelry, old sterling silver dishes and flatware and some coins from time to time.

In the past I would sell these items as-is on ebay and get anywhere from 60-80 percent of silver value, but some times as low as 40%.

Since I became interested in refining, I have been dissolving the silver items I get in dilute nitric acid (35%) and then cememnting out the silver. I then wash it thouroughly, dry and melt into bars.

I then sell the bars as 99.0 percent silver. They fetch anywhere from 85 to 110 percent of the value of the silver they contain. There is a good market for hand poured bars on ebay.

I would like to begin to produce 999 fine silver bars using the electrolytic celll method.

Using this method, I will stamp the bars "999 fine". I would use the utmost care in processing the silver in order to put this mark on the bars.

Of course, I am relying on the electrolytic process to guarantee that the silver i produce is in fact 999 in purity.

Am I making a mistake by relying solely on the process to produce silver that I will call "999 fine"?

Is there a test that I can do to check and verify the 999 purity level myself in my lab?

My ultimate goal is to produce hand poured bars that are stamped "999 fine" and not have any question as to their purity. 

I also want to sell these bars on ebay to provide some income.

What ever happens, i am having a great time making and selling these bars.

I have included a picture of one of the bars that I recently sold on ebay.

Thank you all - kadriver


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 9, 2010)

You seem to be a candidate to try this method by 4metals, and post pictures of the process. 8) 



4metals said:


> An easy method of producing 4 nines silver even if base metals are in solution is to reduce the solution with sodium formate as follows
> 1 Filter solution to remove all ppt's
> 2 Raise pH to 1.5 using liquid caustic
> raise the temp to 130 degrees F
> ...



Or you can do the electrolytic cell thing which takes longer. In any case, in that same thread there is a discussion on how to test for silver fineness. :shock: 

Unless you are doing decent size lots, this processing of silver is not likely to be cost effective.


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## FrugalEE (Dec 9, 2010)

Butcher,

The latest description of your specialized basters is good, but I would like to see a photo as well. I've been using a standard kitchen baster like cooks use to pull up juices for a roast turkey, but it's opening is too big and it drips too easily.

FrugalEE


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## Harold_V (Dec 10, 2010)

kadriver said:


> Is there a test that I can do to check and verify the 999 purity level myself in my lab?


I always used the tail end of the harvest from my silver cell to make the next batch of electrolyte. If there was any copper present (the most likely contaminant) it would manifest itself as a hint of green in the solution. Remember, silver that is dissolved in distilled water has a hint of yellow coloring---so any copper shifts the color to a very light green (not blue). 

You must be careful to expel all signs of those nasty brown fumes when you make your electrolyte, otherwise this method can yield a false positive for contaminants. I typically took my solution to a boil (covered with a watch glass) to insure that all of the nitric had been consumed, and all of the gasses expelled. I always used a slight excess of silver, to insure nitric was consumed. The remaining silver was simply poured to the silver cell, to be harvested with the next batch. Generally less than an ounce. 

The boil I found to be important. It's amazing that the solution would have a hint of color, which was gone after being properly boiled. 

If your handling is clean, you need not fear the purity of your silver if you process with a cell. Keep copper content low and it doesn't co-deposit.

Harold


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 10, 2010)

Generally it doesn't pay commercially to work (refine) silver, by itself, in less than 1,000 Oz lots, or gold in less than 50 Oz lots, even for a one man show. Now if you are doing gold regularly and inquarting, you can accumulate the silver and then you can kill 2 stones with one bird. :lol: I.e: Refine both at the same time with about the same costs. 8) 

Now recovery is a different game since your margins are likely bigger. For all games I make a simple calculation: Am I going to make more than $1,000 out of this or not?. If the answer is no, then I accumulate the material for later processing, or decline the deal, or swap fine for scrap, or...etc. Remember that you make *most* of the money in the purchase side. There is no rush to refine it unless you are urged for cash or you need material to sell above spot.

In your small silver bars that you sell on ebay, I bet that even in the ones you sell above spot, you are making little money, after all costs have been taken into account. 

Now for a hobby, anything goes. 8)

edit: Please take these figures/guidelines I give above only as "rules of thumb". Each case and person is different. Whatever floats your boat. 8)


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## Harold_V (Dec 11, 2010)

HAuCl4 said:


> Generally it doesn't pay commercially to work (refine) silver, by itself, in less than 1,000 Oz lots, or gold in less than 50 Oz lots, even for a one man show.


My years of refining for gain don't agree. I commonly accepted small lots, and charged 10% for refining. If you turn your back on the small business, they'll turn their backs on you when they grow. I turned NO ONE away, although I did not process e scrap. Key to success was having a large number of clients--so my time was spent on many batches. 

Did I make a profit? 

I retired when I was 54. I had no investments nor retirement plan. It was all done on the shoulders of refining for the small business man, and treating him fairly and honestly.

Do you still think one can't process less than 50 oz. of gold and make a profit? 

I could count on one hand the number of times I had more than 50 ounces come in from one client at one time. 



> Now if you are doing gold regularly and inquarting, you can accumulate the silver and then you can kill 2 stones with one bird. :lol: I.e: Refine both at the same time with about the same costs. 8)


Exactly. That's how I operated, and openly commented that silver was not a profit-making proposition---but without it I couldn't operate. Using copper for inquartation was not an acceptable option, due in part to my reliance on silver to act as a carrier for the platinum metals. That in itself made parting silver a viable procedure. 

You really can make a profit by running small batches. You just have to get over the idea that you're worth too much. That's one of the reasons we, here in the US, are now in such trouble. We have, as a nation, priced ourselves out of the world market. 

Harold


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 11, 2010)

Harold: Apparently you read me wrong, or I didn't express myself well. You obviously had a lot of material to refine everyday if you added all your small lots, and you purchased it regularly at 10% discount (or gross 10% fee to you, similar thing), which is huge in today's terms. What I did with small batches of gold was to swap the client's scrap for my fine at about 3-5% discount, and refine it all when I had a larger amount. I turned no reasonable man away, but turned away many propositions that left me with margins so small that were not worth even the price risk, specially silver at $5 per OZ approx. gold at less than $400. I could never make it a long term business like you did. I doubt many can source enough material to make it a business with today's conditions. Maybe I'm just pessimistic.



HAuCl4 said:


> Am I going to make more than $1,000 out of this or not?. *If the answer is no, then I accumulate the material for later processing, or decline the deal, or swap fine for scrap, or...etc.*
> edit: Please take these figures/guidelines I give above only as "rules of thumb". Each case and person is different. Whatever floats your boat. 8)



Sourcing a measly 50 Oz per week at net sell over buy margins of 3% is over $8,000+ a month net (with today's pricings). I doubt many here (I ain't one anymore) are doing that much refining, which I'm sure you'll agree can be done on a Saturday, while keeping a regular job during the week. In my experience finding the material at proper discount, and dealing with people in the business, was *infinitely* more difficult than refining itself. And I guess I was never much of a refiner to begin with, since inquarting and parting is all I did on my own. That was after the failed "big refinery" experience.


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## kadriver (Dec 11, 2010)

This information is priceless to me.

I routinely cut and paste these posts, print and save in a binder in my shop for reference.

I have been making a living off precious metals for over 4 years now.

I agree with HAuCl4 concerning making money on the purchase end.



HAuCl4 said:


> In my experience finding the material at proper discount, and dealing with people in the business, was infinitely more difficult than refining itself.



I have a secret weapon, my business partner and wife of 31 years. She is the reason for our success in this business. She is a master negotiator and relentless in searching out a good deal.

As a result of her tenacity, we have been successful and I now work at home and have a refining shop in the garage of a second home we own.

I get all gold and silver for pennies on the dollar - because of her.

As a result, my lab and all the materials used to refine have been more than paid for, and there is plenty left over for a handsome profit (at least 50% but sometimes 2000% after ALL expenses.)

If I had to go find the items to process, then I believe I would soon be looking for something else to do instead of refining. In fact i would rather light my hair on fire and try to put it out with an ice pick than go out looking for gold and silver to refine.

However:

My wife hates refining herself but does not mind me doing it (I have fallen in love with refining precious metals).

I hate going out and finding items to refine (but my wife loves it!)

We are perfectly paired for this business. Plus we get to do it together.

Thanks to all once again - kadriver


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