# Need fast help on PCB trimmings...experienced advice needed



## DNIndustry (Aug 8, 2009)

I recently bought 5000 lbs of trimmings from a PCB/PWB manufacturer.
They are 18" x 24" with .75'' of gold around the edge on each side. It looks like a picture frame, the outside 3 inches.

I will post some pics.
The composition of the gold is odd.
I am thinking it is immersion based gold.
you can work the edge and peel the metal from the board. 
when you put it in nitric there is a plume of red. More than normal.
an oganic looking fiber (polyimide?) is left over
there is copper. I believe nickel. then gold. possibly palladium but i am unsure 
It is a shiny well distributed gold. But after nitric the gold is brown and clumpy.
After AP it looks coppery. 
There is gold. Its heavy. I used a coating gauge and it is averageing 98um for tape,and metals. 
can anyone tell me how I can tell if it is immersion based vs. electroplate?
any one deal with this tape?
Id like input/Argument on most efficient way to strip...ap/cyanide.
Time is important...I need to let them know if I want to get more. 
Thanks Board!
-DNIndustry


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 8, 2009)

*Circuit Board Trim and Types of Gold Plating*

The board is made over-sized, in order to provide electrical connections to the areas of the board that require plating. When the plating has been done, the "picture frame" is trimmed off with a die.

We used to hire cheap labor to cut off the gold plated areas of the picture frames with tin snips - the good offset type - you can buy them left or right handed. This will reduce the volume and weight considerably and will make the pile much less bulky. I, myself, have filled many barrels with just the gold portions, using this method - it's not so bad - wear leather work gloves. We then stripped the gold in a cement mixer with cyanide/peroxide. Even if you don't process this yourself, by trimming it, you are putting it into a state that can be sampled and assayed, before having it refined. This is much harder to do with the picture frames, since many of them are different. You might also have a separate barrel for pale looking gold pieces.

If it is true immersion gold, it's worth about $.04 to $.05/square inch, max. Immersion gold stops plating when the part is coated. If it's electroplated or electroless gold, it will probably not be worth more than $.25 - $.30/square inch. Immersion plating can usually be removed with 1 or 2 medium pressure strokes of a pencil eraser - don't press hard - watch for the white nickel underneath, once the gold is removed. It will take maybe 8 or 10 strokes for the thicker hard gold. I would practice on fingers - they are usually worth about $.25 - $.30/sq.in. With practice and by doing comparisons, you can actually get quite good at estimating thicknesses using this method. You can also use it to determine whether an object is plated or is solid gold. In these modern times, gold is most always plated over nickel, whether it is on jewelry or circuit boards. Once the gold is off, the nickel is easy to see.

If immersion gold is present, you will probably also have some plated gold, somewhere on the same piece. On the scrap, next to where the fingers were, there should be a fully gold-plated "tie bar".

There are 3 basic types of plating on boards. The first two are used less often than the third, but they are getting more popular.

1) *Immersion Gold* - Basically, a cementation process. The nickel dissolves a bit and the gold sticks to the nickel. Once the part is completely coated, the solution can't get to the nickel. The thickness is limited, therefore, to about 4 or 5 microinches, which is worth about $.04 - $.05.sq.in. It is usually paler in color than (3).

2) *Electroless Gold* - This plates by chemical means, with no power supply needed. The bath contains a strong reducing agent, such as sodium borohydride, which reduces the gold onto the nickel. The longer it stays in the solution, the thicker it gets. When 30 micro" thick, it is usually less brilliant than (3).

3) *Electroplated Alloyed Hard Gold* - The most common. This is done from a bath that contains hardening alloy ingredients, such as cobalt or nickel. The result is a 99+% deposit that is very bright and shiny, yet has a deep golden color. It is most always used for areas that could expect wear, such as fingers. It is also used on many non-wear components, since it protects a little better than soft gold. It is usually from 12 - 30 micro" thick = $.11 - $.28/sq.in. 

I should also mention *Electroplated Soft Pure (9999) Gold* - This is used on parts that require heating during assembly, such as many CPU packages. If the gold wasn't pure, the heating would discolor the gold. The plating is about twice as thick as (3)

An experienced eye can estimate the thickness of gold plating, although you can sometimes get fooled. Less brilliant gold with a deep rich gold color, that only gold can give, is usually thick. Pale gold is usually thin. All gold plating has, at least, a little shine to it and there are several degrees of shine. The true color is obscured to the eye by this shine (brilliance). To take the "shine" out of the equation, lay a piece of white Kleenex over the plated area. Add drops of water until the plated area is covered. Make sure there are no wrinkles and the Kleenex lays flat. You can now see the "true color". Use this to compare, say, pale thin gold with finger gold. It should make it obvious.

The nickel underneath the gold is usually super shiny. When the gold is first applied, it takes on the shininess (or, in rare cases, lack of shininess) and color (paleness) of the nickel. As it gets thicker, it starts taking on the characteristics of the gold, itself. At about 10-15 micro", it is at the full deep gold color. However, the brightness of the the nickel still comes through. At some great thickness (200 micro"? - it actually depends on the type and condition of the bath), the gold will be duller because the nickel brightness is no longer affecting it. As they would say in the trade - Most types of gold plating baths don't "build brightness" - the brightness comes from the nickel.

Hope this helps.


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## DNIndustry (Aug 8, 2009)

GSP....
WOW...

No offense to the other contributors of the board, but that was hands down the best chunk of real world information I have seen on here! 

I get some pics up today.

The boards are 80% the same size. 18 x 24.
They do vary in thickness and coatings. 
The outside of each is the majority of the gold. It wraps around the outside and to the back. (is this the tiebar you reffered to?)
when you stack a couple hundred in a row it is just beautiful.
there are gold polkadots to the inside of the strip.

There is alot of protective coating around the inner portion.
Is there an effective way to remove it? I guess once I disolve the gold filter will take care of it. I picked up some 3M 10micron bag filters and 3 Iwaki Magnetically driven chemical pumps. the filters are 7" opening and 32" long.

As far as process is concerend... they are very uniform. easy to hang and keep separate. would it be faster just to leave them whole? 
Do you think the cyanine bath would penetrate the protective layer? or better to use a copper etchant to go from the inside.?
I have to be thinking repetatively. I have 5,000 lbs comming every 2 weeks. I will be building a much better process after the first set. Does cyanide complex with Pd?


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## aflacglobal (Aug 8, 2009)

Amazing post Chris.


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## aflacglobal (Aug 8, 2009)

Extra links :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809
:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=701&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=2235&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Here's another great one by G.S.P. :arrow: 

My method and Catfish's method, of calculating the gold value of plated objects, only vary by about 1.5%. Pretty close. 

I hope that I don't confuse everyone but, I would like to alter my method a little bit. I think that my new method will make it easier to understand how it works. Here's the whole thing. The only change is in (3), below. 

Why would you want to go through this rigmarole? I use it mainly for buying and selling, when I don't have an assay. I've used it a lot to estimate the value of stuff on Ebay. When dealing scrap, knowledge is king. Although the method is only ballpark, it's better than having no idea of the value. 

(1) Make measurements and calculate the total gold plated surface area. You want to know how many square inches or, how many square centimeters of surface you have. You need to break the plated part down into it's geometric shapes. 

Fingers are easy because they are rectangles. You just measure the width and length of one finger, multiply these together, and multiply this answer times the total number of fingers. If you have 50 sets of identical fingers, multiply that answer times 50. All this gives the total surface area on these particular 50 sets of identical fingers. For a round thin pin, you multiply the diameter times pi (3.1416) times the length. For a thick round pin, you also have to calculate the area of the end. For a square thin pin, multiply the width of one side times 4 times the length. 

Type in - surface area formulas - in Google. Some sites will give drawings of the different geometric shapes and their surface area formulas. I will look for a good one and post it in the Glossary section. 

You can measure in several different ways. The cheapest way is to use a triangle shaped plastic architect's ruler. You can get plenty of accuracy using one of these rulers. Get the one that measures in tenths of an inch and learn to estimate reading it in between the lines (marks). Don't ever measure in 1/16ths, 1/8ths, etc. This would make the calculations much more complicated. For small measurements, you can place the ruler on the object and use something like a 10X eye loupe to read it. 

My favorite is a cheap set of calipers that measures in a decimal part of an inch and, not in 1/16", 1/32", etc. If you can pay more, you can get one that has a dial for the last digit. The cheaper ones have a vernier and that is a little more difficult to get used to. 

Probably, the best is a comparator. This is an eye loupe that has a scale built into it. You can get a variety of screw-on scales for it. 

You could use a micrometer but, they are cumbersome. 

(2) Estimate the gold plating thickness. This may be the most important factor. You have to have an idea of how much is needed for different types of parts. Gold plating is measured in millionths of an inch. Another name for this is microinches. I will refer to them as micro". First of all, you must understand that this is a pure educated guess. You must understand that the thickness of gold plating has changed over the years. Also, the plating on such things as fingers or pins can run all over the map. I have seen fingers that ran from 15 micro" to 80 micro". It depends on the usage requirements and which company made the parts. 

On the average, Catfish has been using 30 micro", with very good success, for things that plug into other things, whether male or female, or for those things that rub against other things, such as those tiny gold plated balls in small multi-switches. This includes such things as gold plated connector pins and many fingers. This has also been pretty well confirmed by lazersteve's yields. 

For things that have to be heated, in order to solder an integrated circuit (chip, die) to a package, you can figure 50 (40 to 60) micro". This includes many CPU's, sidebraze IC's, etc. It also includes hybrid packages (microwave, etc) that often contain hybrid circuits. The gold thickness on all these types of packages have run quite consistent over the years, unlike fingers. 

For everthing else, you are on your own. There are hints, however. For things that just sit there, on run-of-the-mill electronic equipment, figure 15-20 micro". The gold is there only for mild corrosion protection. It doesn't need wear resistance. If you run across some rare, high tech, military part that has to withstand high current flow or a highly corrosive environment, the thickness could be out of sight. Most common modern items run between 12 micro" to 35 micro". 

Two ways to really know the real gold thickness, on specific parts, is to assay them or to refine them (the whole batch or, just a few of them, as a sample). You can then measure and calculate the surface area. From this, you can calculate the gold thickness. There are specific types of equipment that measure plating thickness. The Microderm and Betascope utilize radioactive isotopes to do this. The Kocour machine actually dissolves a small spot of the plating. There is also X-ray thickness measuring equipment. Most all of these need standards in order to set them up. You can also plate backup nickel on the gold plate, make a metallurgical mount, polish and etch it, and measure the thickness using a metallurgical microscope. I have lots of experience using all of the methods and equipment (except for x-ray) covered in this paragraph. If you want more info on any of these, let me know. 

A special category is gold brazes. They probably run from 500 to 1000 micro" thick. A 80/20, gold/tin braze is used around the edge on gold plated lids used to seal IC packages, such as some CPU's, side braze packages, or all-gold plated hybrid packages. Also, on many of these same parts, a 96/4 (I think), gold/silicon braze is used to attach the chip. 

The mil specs and other official thickness charts, concerning electronic parts, aren't that helpful unless you know what thickness Class Number was called out when that exact part was manufactured. If you assayed parts, you could probably get some correlation between the data, however. The official decorative gold plating charts are a little more helpful, since some plated jewelry is marked. If you see a marking of H.G.E., e.g., you know it should be 100 micro" thick, when new. 

(3) Calculate the gold plating value. 

First, for us in the US, who have measured things in square inches. 
(a) Get the spot market price of gold, in dollars per troy ounce. Divide this number by 100,000 (ten thousand) on the calculator (Note: This is the only change I made in my method). This gives the dollar value of one square inch of gold plating, one micro" thick. Let this sink in your brain. For example, if the gold price were $660 per tr.oz., the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, would be 660 divided by 100,000 or, $.066. Please note that this was a little discovery of mine and you won't find it anywhere else. I just noticed that, when I calculated the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, using the density of gold, etc., it just happened to be within 1.5% of dividing the spot price by 100,000. Pure coincidence. 

(b) Multiply this times the gold thickness in micro" and multiply this times the number of square inches you have. 

Dollar value of gold plating = Spot price divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square inches. 

Example: The gold spot is $650. You have 9.58 square inches of gold plate that you estimate to be 30 micro" thick. 
650 divided by 100,000 X 9.58 X 30 = $1.87. 

For those measuring in centimeters and calculating area in square centimeters: 

Spot price in US dollars divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square centimeters divided by 6.452. 

You'll have to convert other currency values on your own. 

Play with this. It's easier than I've made it sound. As you probably know by now, I'm a detail guy. Just remember it's limitations. At best, it's a estimate, which will often (but, not always) be a bit on the low side. 

Chris 


Engineering Applications 
Class 00 20 micro inches 
Class 0 30 micro inches 
Class 1 50 micro inches 
Class 2 100 micro inches 
Class 3 200 micro inches 

Military specifications: 
Additional classes 

Class 4 300 micro inches 
Class 5 500 micro inches 
Class 6 1500 micro inches 
The formula for determining content 

ESTIMATING GOLD PLATING AND CONTENT 
My method and Catfish’s method, of calculating the gold value of plated objects, only vary by 
about 1.5%. Pretty close. 
I hope that I don’t confuse everyone but, I would like to alter my method a little bit. I think 
that my new method will make it easier to understand how it works. Here’s the whole thing. 
The only change is in (3), below. 
Why would you want to go through this rigmarole? I use it mainly for buying and selling, when 
I don’t have an assay. I’ve used it a lot to estimate the value of stuff on Ebay. When dealing 
scrap, knowledge is king. Although the method is only ballpark, it’s better than having no idea 
of the value. 
(1) Make measurements and calculate the total gold plated surface area. You want to 
know how many square inches or, how many square centimeters of surface you have. You 
need to break the plated part down into it’s geometric shapes. 
Fingers are easy because they are rectangles. You just measure the width and length of one 
finger, multiply these together, and multiply this answer times the total number of fingers. If 
you have 50 sets of identical fingers, multiply that answer times 50. All this gives the total 
surface area on these particular 50 sets of identical fingers. For a round thin pin, you multiply 
the diameter times pi (3.1416) times the length. For a thick round pin, you also have to 
calculate the area of the end. For a square thin pin, multiply the width of one side times 4 
times the length. 
Type in - surface area formulas - in Google. Some sites will give drawings of the different 
geometric shapes and their surface area formulas. I will look for a good one and post it in the 
Glossary section. 
You can measure in several different ways. The cheapest way is to use a triangle shaped 
plastic architect’s ruler. You can get plenty of accuracy using one of these rulers. Get the one 
that measures in tenths of an inch and learn to estimate reading it in between the lines 
(marks). Don’t ever measure in 1/16ths, 1/8ths, etc. This would make the calculations much 
more complicated. For small measurements, you can place the ruler on the object and use 
something like a 10X eye loupe to read it. 
My favorite is a cheap set of calipers that measures in a decimal part of an inch and, not in 
1/16", 1/32", etc. If you can pay more, you can get one that has a dial for the last digit. The 
cheaper ones have a vernier and that is a little more difficult to get used to. 
Probably, the best is a comparator. This is an eye loupe that has a scale built into it. You can 
get a variety of screw-on scales for it. 
You could use a micrometer but, they are cumbersome. 
(2) Estimate the gold plating thickness. This may be the most important factor. You have 
to have an idea of how much is needed for different types of parts. Gold plating is measured in 
millionths of an inch. Another name for this is microinches. I will refer to them as micro". First 
of all, you must understand that this is a pure educated guess. You must understand that the 
thickness of gold plating has changed over the years. Also, the plating on such things as 
fingers or pins can run all over the map. I have seen fingers that ran from 15 micro" to 80 
micro". It depends on the usage requirements and which company made the parts. 
On the average, Catfish has been using 30 micro", with very good success, for things that plug 
into other things, whether male or female, or for those things that rub against other things, 
such as those tiny gold plated balls in small multi-switches. This includes such things as gold 
plated connector pins and many fingers. This has also been pretty well confirmed by 
41 
lazersteve’s yields. 
For things that have to be heated, in order to solder an integrated circuit (chip, die) to a 
package, you can figure 50 (40 to 60) micro". This includes many CPU’s, sidebraze IC’s, etc. It 
also includes hybrid packages (microwave, etc) that often contain hybrid circuits. The gold 
thickness on all these types of packages have run quite consistent over the years, unlike 
fingers. 
For everthing else, you are on your own. There are hints, however. For things that just sit 
there, on run-of-the-mill electronic equipment, figure 15-20 micro". The gold is there only for 
mild corrosion protection. It doesn’t need wear resistance. If you run across some rare, high 
tech, military part that has to withstand high current flow or a highly corrosive environment, 
the thickness could be out of sight. Most common modern items run between 12 micro" to 35 
micro". 
Two ways to really know the real gold thickness, on specific parts, is to assay them or to 
refine them (the whole batch or, just a few of them, as a sample). You can then measure and 
calculate the surface area. From this, you can calculate the gold thickness. There are specific 
types of equipment that measure plating thickness. The Microderm and Betascope utilize 
radioactive isotopes to do this. The Kocour machine actually dissolves a small spot of the 
plating. There is also X-ray thickness measuring equipment. Most all of these need standards 
in order to set them up. You can also plate backup nickel on the gold plate, make a 
metallurgical mount, polish and etch it, and measure the thickness using a metallurgical 
microscope. I have lots of experience using all of the methods and equipment (except for xray) 
covered in this paragraph. If you want more info on any of these, let me know. 
A special category is gold brazes. They probably run from 500 to 1000 micro" thick. A 80/20, 
gold/tin braze is used around the edge on gold plated lids used to seal IC packages, such as 
some CPU’s, side braze packages, or all-gold plated hybrid packages. Also, on many of these 
same parts, a 96/4 (I think), gold/silicon braze is used to attach the chip. 
The mil specs and other official thickness charts, concerning electronic parts, aren’t that 
helpful unless you know what thickness Class Number was called out when that exact part was 
manufactured. If you assayed parts, you could probably get some correlation between the 
data, however. The official decorative gold plating charts are a little more helpful, since some 
plated jewelry is marked. If you see a marking of H.G.E., e.g., you know it should be 100 
micro" thick, when new. 
(3) Calculate the gold plating value. 
First, for us in the US, who have measured things in square inches. 
(a) Get the spot market price of gold, in dollars per troy ounce. Divide this number by 100,000 
(one hundred thousand) on the calculator (Note: This is the only change I made in my method). This 
gives the dollar value of one square inch of gold plating, one micro" thick. Let this sink in your 
brain. For example, if the gold price were $660 per tr.oz., the value of one square inch of one 
micro" thick gold, would be 660 divided by 10000 or, $.0066. Please note that this was a little 
discovery of mine and you won’t find it anywhere else. I just noticed that, when I calculated 
the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, using the density of gold, etc., it just 
happened to be within 1.5% of dividing the spot price by 100,000. Pure coincidence. 
(b) Multiply this times the gold thickness in micro" and multiply this times the number of 
square inches you have. 
Dollar value of gold plating = Spot price divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in 
square inches. 
Example: The gold spot is $650. You have 9.58 square inches of gold plate that you estimate 
to be 30 micro" thick. 
650 divided by 100,000 X 9.58 X 30 = $1.87. 

For those measuring in centimeters and calculating area in square centimeters: 
Spot price in US dollars divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square centimeters 
divided by 6.452. 
You’ll have to convert other currency values on your own. 
Play with this. It’s easier than I’ve made it sound. As you probably know by now, I’m a detail 
guy. Just remember it’s limitations. At best, it’s a estimate, which will often (but, not always) 
be a bit on the low side. 
Chris


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 8, 2009)

Ralph,

Unfortunately, the factor of 10,000, at the end of that post, is wrong. *It is 100,000*. I corrected it, way back when, but, obviously, I didn't do a good job of covering all the bases. If you use the formula in the above post, before I change it, you will be 10 times too high.

Here's the correct formula:

Dollar value of gold plating = gold spot price divided by 100,000 x square inches of plating X the thickness in microinches.

Let's say the gold price is $950/oz. You have 10.3 sq.in. of gold plated fingers that are 30 micro" thick (usually).

The dollar value is 950 divided by 100,000 x 10.3 x 30 = $2.93

Give me the original link and I'll make the corrections there. I'll make the corrections now, in the above post that you copied. Corrections made! The above post is now correct. Notice the factor of 100,000.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 8, 2009)

DNI,

I need photos. The cyanide will only dissolve what is exposed directly to the solution - basically, what you can see. It won't get what's under the overlay. Are you sure that there is gold under the overlay? Don't go by appearance - you have to test it.


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## aflacglobal (Aug 9, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Ralph,
> Give me the original link and I'll make the corrections there. I'll make the corrections now, in the above post that you copied. Corrections made! The above post is now correct. Notice the factor of 100,000.





http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

You corrected it almost 2 years ago. I took the article from forum book 1, that's where it was wrong. I have corrected it also.


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## aflacglobal (Feb 24, 2010)

8)


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## leavemealone (Feb 24, 2010)

> GSP....
> WOW...
> 
> No offense to the other contributors of the board, but that was hands down the best chunk of real world information I have seen on here!



This is exactly why we tell people to RESEARCH the forum first.Everything that GSP posted came right out of the forum handbook.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 24, 2010)

> Everything that GSP posted came right out of the forum handbook.


I know you meant this different than it sounded, but I thought I should correct it.

Everything in the forum handbook(s) that aflacglobal put together came from what I and many others posted.


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## leavemealone (Feb 24, 2010)

> > I know you meant this different than it sounded, but I thought I should correct it.
> 
> 
> Everything in the forum handbook(s) that aflacglobal put together came from what I and many others posted.



I am sorry but what I said was exactly correct.Isn't it true that the response you gave was directly taken out of the handbook.I,unlike a lot of people on here,have taken the time to read it,and took time to define parts I did not readily understand,until I did understand it.
My original response was not aimed at,who wrote what,it was aimed at the fact that yet again someone wanted a superfast fix,when the answer was in the most common of places,using the most simplest of skills,research.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 24, 2010)

Chicken or the egg? In this case, it was the chicken.


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## Oz (Feb 24, 2010)

I understand GSP's point.

If you read the statement literally “Everything that GSP posted came right out of the forum handbook” it would seem to someone new here that GSP was copying things out of the magic forum handbook instead of from experience and knowledge. GSP and everyone else here that gives of their time, knowledge and experience deserve full credit.


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## aflacglobal (Feb 25, 2010)

Plagiarism. 

Chris, you should be ashamed.    

Were it not for people like Chris, Harold, Steve, Lou, 4metals, Irons, and anyone i forgot to list, it would not be possible to amass the learning material that this forum finds so valuable. It’s a group effort. Thanks everyone!


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## leavemealone (Feb 25, 2010)

I am SHOCKED to think you guys took it that way!
All of you know me well enough to know I meant nothing cross towards chris.


> Everything that GSP posted came right out of the forum handbook


Read again,only this time,take the emphasis off of what chris did,and emphasize the fact that the info came out of the handbook.
I was merely stressing the fact that the answer came right out of the handbook and the original poster could have easily found it,with minimal effort.
After all chris made a comment to armando and I using PM's to communicate versus the forum,obviously it was an effort to stop wasting space on the forum.I understand that and agreed that should have been done.When here is someone that asked a question to which the answer was staring them right in the face......but of course no one commented on that.
So the next time you think I meant anything derogatory towards chris or any other moderater......step back and think about who it is.
Johnny :mrgreen:


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## Oz (Feb 25, 2010)

Johnny,

I did not mean to imply “you” meant it that way at all, nor do I think any other regular member did. I only meant that someone new may not have known better or differently with the way it was said.


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## Harold_V (Feb 26, 2010)

I got Johnny's point, and got it immediately. Had it been worded ever so slightly differently, it would have had a great impact. (Not critical of your words, Johnny, just trying to make it clear that I get your point).

What he meant was that the information that was provided was already available, thanks to GSP, in the handbook mentioned. Point being, _new readers should consult these things instead of asking redundant questions._ 

I sympathize with new readers. It's overwhelming to step in on a forum that has been active as long as this one has, and it's impossible to know what has, and has not, been discussed, and to what end. 

New readers should be directed, with kindness, to the sources of information they seek. If, by chance, they are unwilling to do the work required to save those of us that have knowledge from endlessly posting on the same topics, with nothing new to add, then, perhaps, they can look for a different form of entertainment. 

Harold


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## redtogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

As a newbie myself, perhaps I could make a suggestion.

When the forum sends out the welcome message to new users would it be possible to include the links to the basic documentation?

eg. Welcome, read this!

Nobody should have any excuses then. If certainly can be difficult to find basic information sometimes yet also insanely irritating for members to be repeatedly asked the same questions.


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## Irons (Mar 1, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> I got Johnny's point, and got it immediately. Had it been worded ever so slightly differently, it would have had a great impact. (Not critical of your words, Johnny, just trying to make it clear that I get your point).
> 
> What he meant was that the information that was provided was already available, thanks to GSP, in the handbook mentioned. Point being, _new readers should consult these things instead of asking redundant questions._
> 
> ...



The Blacksmith I worked for one Summer used to say:

"Today, all these kids want to do is hang around."
He was a taskmaster. He spent 2 years in the Soviet Gulag, cutting wood 364 days of the Year. He knew how to work.


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## leavemealone (Mar 1, 2010)

> I got Johnny's point, and got it immediately. Had it been worded ever so slightly differently, it would have had a great impact. (Not critical of your words, Johnny, just trying to make it clear that I get your point).


Thank you.I assumed there was no need to reply at that point,thus wasting more peoples time.
I had a great idea,but after writing it here,it just seemed too rediculous.Something along the lines of making the handbook part of the terms and conditions in order to have a new account,and then if a newby asks a typical newby question we can simply say go back to the handbook.However I realized that wouldn't work considering we basically brow-beat people now to get them to read hoke and they still don't.Well it sounded like a good idea in my head.
Oz/aflac,Im sorry for assuming that.I knew there was no way you could've thought that about me.
Johnny


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