# Silver Refining Question AgCl+Na2Co3



## clas (May 31, 2014)

hi everybody !

i am newbie at metal refining and the first steps that i made i have some questions

i decide to use this method 
a.dissolve Ag to HNO3
b.add NaCl to produce AgCl
c.carefully wash AgCl with water 
d.put Na2Co3 at AgCl, heat the mix at oven 400-420 C
e.wash again the mix and take out the NaCl
f.final dry, and then melting

The questions are :
1.Before i put the Na2Co3 i must dry the AgCl or is it ok if it is wet?
2.Does anyone follow this procedure , and have some remarks to make? 

yours opinions will be very helpfull to me

thank you


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## goldsilverpro (May 31, 2014)

clas said:


> hi everybody !
> 
> i am newbie at metal refining and the first steps that i made i have some questions
> 
> ...


The Kunda method. US Patent #4388109. About 0.74g of Na2CO3 per g of AgCl, very well blended (an electric blender was used in the patent). According to a graph I have in another book, at 420C, only about 30% of the the AgCl will be converted to Ag. It needs to be heated to 550-600C for about an hour. If it exceeds 625C, it forms a solid chunk and you won't be able to leach it. It is then cooled, pulverized, and leached with water, which dissolves everything but the silver powder.

I would dry the AgCl before blending with Na2CO3. The blender will break it up, I would think, into face powder.


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## butcher (Jun 1, 2014)

If you process silver in nitric acid to make a silver nitrate solution, using copper to cement the silver, this will recover silver as a metal that can be washed, dried, and melted, without the complications of silver chloride or converting it back to metal silver.

Easier, less trouble, less loss, just better all around...


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## clas (Jun 1, 2014)

GoldSilverPro , have you use this method? 
i read the PDF file that you post before about the Kunda method, but i read a post from ScrapnGold who says that he was working with lower temperature (400-450) and he did not have losses at the quantity of Ag.


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## clas (Jun 1, 2014)

Buther i am working at home , and i have problem to have the tank with fumes for two days in the middle of the room.
At a small test that i make , it takes me about two days to put down the Ag , from the liquid.


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## Palladium (Jun 1, 2014)

clas said:


> Buther i am working at home , and i have problem to have the tank with fumes for two days in the middle of the room.



:shock:


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## butcher (Jun 1, 2014)

clas,
Dot not do this in your home, or work in anywhere that these fumes will accumulate, the fumes are deadly to breath, they will corrode any metals in an area they are used.

These fumes will destroy everything around you, and will be putting you and others in danger.

Find a safe place to work, outside, or fix up a lab/shop to safely work in with proper safety equiptment, fume hood...

The safety section of the forum will help you understand the dangers, and help you to protect yourself and others from these dangers.

The waste products are also dangerous, solutions, and other waste products, you neeed to learn to deal with these properly also, dealing with waste in the safety section will help with dealing with the toxic waste generated.

Your safety and the safety of others around you is more important than getting some silver.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 1, 2014)

clas said:


> GoldSilverPro , have you use this method?
> i read the PDF file that you post before about the Kunda method, but i read a post from ScrapnGold who says that he was working with lower temperature (400-450) and he did not have losses at the quantity of Ag.


I have not used the Kunda method. I have always used the Karo syrup/sodium hydroxide method. One place I worked mixed the AgCl/Na2CO3 together, heated it in a gas crucible, then pulled the crucible out and let it sit for awhile. I have no idea how efficient this was.

Can you provide the link for the ScrapnGold post mentioned above? As far as the temperature is concerned, I was going by the graph in the attached pdf. However, when Kunda did the experiments, he may have based all the yields on the graph on a 1 hr time frame. Maybe, a lower temperature for a longer period of time would work.

I can't believe you're attempting to do this in your house. Bad, bad idea. There are bound to be fumes. Good way to poison yourself and anyone else around. You would also contaminate the whole house.


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## Irons (Jun 1, 2014)

Silver Chloride melts at 455deg. Centigrade.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 1, 2014)

Irons said:


> Silver Chloride melts at 455deg. Centigrade.


I know. Maybe that's what you want it to do.


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## butcher (Jun 1, 2014)

I believe,

The Na2CO3 and AgCl react in a fusion process where heat helps in the reaction of the conversion to silver prior to the silver melting.

Because of the high melting pooint of NaCl, and this also being a product in this method, loss of silver can be high, as the silver also reacts with the salt at these higher temperatures.

The carbonate and the NaCl fighting each other for your silver, making it difficult for you.
making it difficult to get the silver converted and then melted without loss of silver, and much higher loss if not done just right.

Temperature and time, and other factors, can play a big role in how well it would work, and how much of your silver goes up in smoke.


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## clas (Jun 1, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> clas said:
> 
> 
> > GoldSilverPro , have you use this method?
> ...



You are right , i know the danger . I bought this machine (https://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDQQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D98fJ8-4qKkQ&ei=E3SLU5PNLqTK0QWgw4HACg&usg=AFQjCNGukABkTok75b9yT4NtDoezOdqSDg&bvm=bv.67720277,d.bGQ), but i want to make first my small scale tests at my home and then go to business. The problem of the space , that i am talking about is that i have only one room about 20m2 that everything must fit in.

Butcher and Goldsilverpro thank you for your concern.


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## clas (Jun 1, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> clas said:
> 
> 
> > GoldSilverPro , have you use this method?
> ...




Goldsilverpro here is the reply from ScrapnGold about the temperature that he uses http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=12212


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Jun 1, 2014)

Clas:

Converting AgCl to metallic silver by Na2CO3 fusion is a solid-solid chemical reaction,mass transfer and temperature control speed of reaction..and if you want to know more about solid-solid reactions then go back to school.What you have to know is that there are better process than AgCl fusion(with Na2CO3),having white wet AgCl you can better use,Karo syrup process or metallic replacement...anyway,you have come here to find answers,here are my 2 cents:

Mix AgCl with half its own weight of Na2CO3,heat the mixture until the surface looks like a crust,break the crust and continue doing the same until all the mixture has converted in crusts,now it is time to rise temperature to 1100 C,you will see that little balls of white silver are formed,add some borax and continue melting until you get liquid silver,pour it into an ingot.Look,Clas,take your time to read and learn the right processes before you start refining.

Keep us posted about your progress.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## clas (Jun 2, 2014)

Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:


> Clas:
> 
> Converting AgCl to metallic silver by Na2CO3 fusion is a solid-solid chemical reaction,mass transfer and temperature control speed of reaction..and if you want to know more about solid-solid reactions then go back to school.What you have to know is that there are better process than AgCl fusion(with Na2CO3),having white wet AgCl you can better use,Karo syrup process or metallic replacement...anyway,you have come here to find answers,here are my 2 cents:
> 
> ...



Manuel , i try to wash the AgCl+Na2Co3 mix after the firt heating. Then i wil put in a crusible and go for melting.

At my first try i did like you say, heat and after melt in the same balw, without washing between, and the NaCl that it has inside take quantities of Ag

The result was a solid bar of Ag , and a lot of small balls Ag inside the Nacl


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Jun 3, 2014)

OK,add some borax to the mixture of NaCl and little balls of silver.Rise temperature to 1100 C.Once borax is melted it will make fluid the mixture and all silver balls will come together.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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