# PLEASE FOR THE OPINION!



## kole55 (Feb 4, 2015)

Hello everyone on the forum!
On pins I added 100ml old AP solution 500 ml 19% HCl and 200 ml of peroxide (3%) and mixed. After half an hour at the bottom appeared a black cloud (it has happened to me before) but when I start violently mix for some 2-3 minutes, the solution turns dark green. Then leave it for two days and went to paint the color of chocolate and I know that is then saturated with a solution of CuCl. I also know because when I add water creates a white cloud and the white precipitate. The residue was dissolved in HCl and re-use for the AP. Now I have a question whether it is better that this mixed or leave day that this works and that perhaps the next day mixed. I think I'd like to know what's going on. Here's a picture.
THANK YOU!


----------



## Pantherlikher (Feb 4, 2015)

Hello kole55 and welcome to the forum...

I see you have joined Jan 30th and already have 76 posts.

Have you done any reading or learning anything about what you are doing?

First. A/P... uses Air injected into the solution. Not much peroxide at all.
HCL + Peroxide will dissolve gold as well as allot of other metals.
Any idea where your gold is? Have you tested the solution? How do you test for gold?

Instead of diving in and then asking what is happening and what to do next, STOP! doing anything and read the forum!

PLEASE

B.S.


----------



## g_axelsson (Feb 4, 2015)

Pantherlikher said:


> Hello kole55 and welcome to the forum...
> 
> I see you have joined Jan 30th and already have 76 posts.


Calm down, that's not so much over a years time. 8) 

Kole55, I don't understand your question. Can you rephrase it?

Göran


----------



## Geo (Feb 4, 2015)

kole55 has been around for over a year. I too do not understand what you are getting at. It looks like you have some loose foils in the bottom of the container.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Feb 4, 2015)

g_axelsson, my bad... Still thinkin this is 2014...But this kind of question is about the same newbie time frame.

A/P is a very slow process. Adding this much peroxide will dissolve gold as well which when the solution is saturated with copper, gold comes out as a very fine powder. Also pins have lots of base metals including tin.

My question here is will the tin going into solution with the gold dissolved make Stanus Chloride thereby losing some gold?

Is this not a good reason to learn more before doing anything?. Like learning what pins are made of?.

Just thinking while reviewing some posts...

I think the question is more about time. A/P is slow and you can pretty much mix it as much as you want. Just allow lots of time before pouring the liquid off the sediment at the bottom.
What I've done is let sit overnight, pour off as much as possible, move sediment to new container to reuse A/P, and add fresh CHL to sediment to begin washing more base metals out.(Search washing gold)

Pins however, I eventually will soak in hot HCL, not boiling. This breaks down the pins some by removing tin etc. Then pins into A/P. The Hot HCL will be only used for anything with tin or steel, etc., Junk metals.

To me, removing metals in steps seems to end in less hassle then all at once.
More containers yes. But you can create an assembly line of acids and metal extraction.
Fingers and other copper plated done in A/P.
When solution is spent, too much, Move to container for steel,tin,etc.(lesser metals then copper).
Finally a steel removal solution.

Still learning about "Waste treatment" and "Elephant in the Room", both searches.
When I do dive in and get extracting of metals, I want a complete waste stream that removes base metals and drops metals above it.

There is allot of information to sift through just in learning this piece of the puzzle so I have yet to do more then some small "experiments" to see what I'm learning.

B.S.


----------



## Geo (Feb 4, 2015)

4metals said:


> Waste treatment for the small refiner.
> 
> Most of the practicing alchemists on this forum generate waste liquids which, if you have the time and desire, can be neutralized and made free of toxic metals rather simply. The required supplies are simply a pH meter, a few plastic tanks (15 gallon size is ideal), an aquarium air pump and some tubing, slab of copper, some scrap iron. The advantage you have in being a small producer is that you have the time to let the solutions sit and react before proceeding to the next step. Because of this you do not need expensive pH controllers or a filter press and the associated pumps.
> 
> ...



Here you go.


----------



## MarcoP (Feb 5, 2015)

Geo, freechemist's post is in my bookmarks from a long while now and I read it many times. However it is missing few steps.

Butcher have given also great tips for waste treatment to remove remaining copper, nickel, lead, cadmium, etc. hydroxides and carbonates. After adding scrap iron pH should be raised to 8, decant, raise pH to 10, decant, neutralize and discharge.

I used calcium hydroxide in a small experiment scale and it worked, solution was not jelly as when using sodium hydroxide and it cost me €2,5 for a 25Kg bag. I still have all my waste liquid, just waiting to build a cascade style waste treatment cabinet with glass jars at the top and plastic ones at the bottom, all with teflon taps. Opening a tap will let the treated liquid flow by gravity into the bottom one leaving solids undisturbed.


----------



## kole55 (Feb 5, 2015)

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR ANSWERS!
I did not want to be too lengthy for this post but I now still explain what it is about. In my post "north bridge chips" I said that I started processing 150gr header pins in AP. However that would not waste any time I added the remaining 250g of pins and other gilded parts with electronics. So I started with a total of 400 grams of material 4 January. I am familiar with the AP method, when it is saturated with CuCl should not be gold in solution and then execute filtering and collect snowflakes and dust (use double coffee filter). I am taking part in the launch of the process of re-AP (at the end of filtering if it is too CuCl I add HCl to dissolve the white-gray precipitate and I add it to the next process, I add a little acid and peroxide as needed to get a beautiful emerald green). Somewhere in the middle (when the dissolved material around 200gr) accumulated dust and flakes I processed in hcl-cl (of course before that good washing with HCl and water with heat-Harold method) and I got the gold dust (figure 3) .When all I finish it will again go into the process with the remaining material. In Figure 4 the container in which collect dust and flakes (I should note that I add a little acid if there are impurities let him clean up and see the color that has, or will eventually go again generally wash before hcl-cl) Now this I've published in the post is still some 40-50gr material which is left of it and plan to dissolve and then compile all the vessels br4.After I put a day or two air from the pump (I read in one post of GEO if a tin that will turn it into a tin oxide) and then continue the process-washing and melting in hcl-cl.I know for and the burning process only to red -not to melt the dust but it'll get around I'll make a good wash (something else here is the difference in price 22k and 24k gold dollar or two so I do not know if that applies to this material in general is a little tease but this process is optional if when I have more material). I also want to note that the 400gr completely clean parts with gold plated without solder and parts where there is no gilding they are removed mechanically with pliers. There is also no pins of the PCI and AGP slots because they are unprofitable and as I read somewhere alloy is beryllium copper, so avoid it (Figure 5 and 6).
In Figure 7 and 8 the AP this morning after I shuffled see that the solution is green with black cloudiness (I'll hold that was saturated with CuCl Verifies with water) so I filter and there's still very little undissolved material some 20 gr. Now my question is it possible that it's black and gold dust that accumulated during the process and was cemented to the material and now is exempt because it is very little material left. If so then it makes sense to set the material must be dissolved in order to take all the values (this I also read in one of the GEO posts where also says the aquarium pump another day or two after he dissolved all the material to be converted into tin tin oxide) Well now so, I hope that the translation is good and that is not too confusing. I apologize to such a great article but I love to read posts with lots of text and materials. GREETINGS TO ALL FORUM AND THANK YOU!


----------



## kole55 (Feb 5, 2015)

here's image 8


----------



## Pantherlikher (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks.
That clears up allot but also hard to follow. English is tough to understand even if it's the first language.

So after processing different kinds of pins in recommended ways, you now have powders to combine.
Have you soaked in clean hot HCL? Repeat until the solution remains clear. This helps make sure no base it left.

After this you should be ready to refine. 

Try letting powders settle and pour off the liquid. No need to filter at all really.
I pour off any used solution into a tall glass and allow a day or so to settle anything left. Glass like the 1 pictured but at least twice as tall.
There is very little in this after settling so I just added more, settled, pour off and repeat until I'm done with everything. Then I washed what little was there and most vanished...Dissolved and wasn't gold.

B.S.


----------



## kole55 (Feb 5, 2015)

Pantherlikher said:


> Thanks.
> That clears up allot but also hard to follow. English is tough to understand even if it's the first language.
> 
> So after processing different kinds of pins in recommended ways, you now have powders to combine.
> ...



Thank Pantherlikher. Filtering only AP solution when saturated with copper one, and finally filtering ap solutions I add excess liquid from the vessel in which I collect material (of course very carefully exsanguinate plummet to not move my burst and snowflakes I collected) so that when you pass the removal of surplus liquid in the collecting tray remains on the filter where I filtered AP solution. After filtering again, run-off from the filter in the dust collecting vessel, add a little acid and a repeat until all the material dissolved in the AP. When all melt in the AP (and the rest is about 20 grams of material and it is 400gr) generally goes washing collected dust and flakes so hcl-cl. In fact this is slow but this is a good process for those who do not want to use HNO3 or not available. Also still do not want to work with sulfuric station. I think I finished chemo technical schools, and this is not taught in school, I think of this refining of gold, but I know how dangerous H2SO4, HNO3 and also, I should be very careful when working with them. AP is a slow process but for beginners very convenient. What I have described is simply the separation of gold from base metals, and of course everyone has their own method. Thanks to everyone on the forum because it is a great thing from the trash to make a nice lump of gold still 22k cleanliness, not to mention the purity of gold that make Harold, Geo, Lazarstive, Dave and other masters in this forum (I apologize to those I have not mentioned). And as I said this in neither school. THANK YOU


----------



## richard2013 (Feb 11, 2015)

Hello Kole would mind to update us how much yield you got from the 400grams pins in 22k? using the said process. Thanks


----------



## kole55 (Feb 12, 2015)

richard2013 said:


> Hello Kole would mind to update us how much yield you got from the 400grams pins in 22k? using the said process. Thanks


Hello richard2013. Here is a picture of No. 2 from the rest of the pins
(gold chloride). So I compiled all the dust and melted (400 gr mix pins). I got a button from 0.6gr very pure gold (figure 3 and 4). I think that pins with motherboards and contacts from mobile phones are not worth processing if you do not have a large amount. Also, as the masters of the forum said (LazarStive, Dave, Geo and others) AP is not the right way for this kind of pins. Of course I knew they were right, but I could not just throw pins, I had to process them (and like I said I work only with the AP, HNO3 and H2SO4 avoid'm not yet ready for it). So I'll work my fingers and processors in AP (also processed IC cipove- Patnor method) I got 500 gr ceramic processor and go three times faster in AP. So much for now, I hope that the translation is good and greeting everyone on the forum.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Feb 12, 2015)

That's not a bad yield from less than a pound of pins. The pictures of the button are very fuzzy, but is that a little pipe in it? 8) 

Dave


----------



## richard2013 (Feb 12, 2015)

Thanks kole55 for the sharing, for hobbies an a safe option than using a more dangerous acid than AP due to some limitations, it is just worth, the yield is good kole, congratulation! I have been saving more escrap since 1 year ago started reading, I have save around 2500Grams of mixed pins. Again thank you


----------



## kole55 (Feb 18, 2015)

FrugalRefiner said:


> That's not a bad yield from less than a pound of pins. The pictures of the button are very fuzzy, but is that a little pipe in it? 8)
> 
> Dave


Hello Dave! Yes I am happy, because I care now that the process goes smoothly and that at the end I get a gold-button. I have to admit that I had more gold dust but I messed up the melting, too borax, but at least I know what and how you do not need to work again, though the best learning from mistakes. For Richard2013 want to say that it should be somewhere around 1 g. but I messed up and lost maybe about half a gram. Dave, that in the middle there like a pipe or rather hole, not much in depth, maybe 1/3 balls and is symmetric, the bass is round. What does that mean, somewhere I read about these pipes, but I can not remember what it means! I apologize for the bad pictures with cell phones are. Now handles 400 grams ceramic processor and 160 pieces of finger from RAM, of course I do it separately. Thank you Dave and regards!


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Feb 18, 2015)

kole, a "pipe" in your button is usually a sign of pretty high purity. When you melt gold into a button in a melting dish, then remove the heat, the gold starts to cool and solidify. The outer surface usually freezes first, with the bottom and inside of the button cooling a little slower. As gold cools, it shrinks. Since the outer skin has formed on the bead, the shrinking gold inside pulls it down, usually in the center of the button, and creates the pipe. Knowledgeable gold buyers will often accept the pipe as a sign of high purity gold.

Dave


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 18, 2015)

The pipe will look something like this.


----------



## kole55 (Feb 18, 2015)

FrugalRefiner said:


> kole, a "pipe" in your button is usually a sign of pretty high purity. When you melt gold into a button in a melting dish, then remove the heat, the gold starts to cool and solidify. The outer surface usually freezes first, with the bottom and inside of the button cooling a little slower. As gold cools, it shrinks. Since the outer skin has formed on the bead, the shrinking gold inside pulls it down, usually in the center of the button, and creates the pipe. Knowledgeable gold buyers will often accept the pipe as a sign of high purity gold.
> 
> Dave


Thanks Dave! So when a pipe gold is very high purity. Good, because all I get below 22k is not commendable. Otherwise, when I do watch that process as much Clean, wash and prepare the material before hcl-art processes. The reason is mostly due to the dissolution of the hcl/cl, in general did not take much hcl and cl if the material is pure (at the beginning I made half a liter of gold chloride, in order to get maybe half a gram of gold). The second reason is just clogging after adding SMB, because since I started very thoroughly monitored material (Harold method) 90% gold dust falls as sediment in the first 45 minutes. I did not want to write on the forum my every attempt, but the last two years I've done 10-15 different processes with different materials to personally knew what and how. I've had mistakes but as I said from the mistakes are best taught and from the forum (thanks to all). And it looks just like the picture of Barren Realms 007, only smaller. Cheers!


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Feb 18, 2015)

Using too much acid and precipitant is a very common mistake. Hoke teaches us that a troy ounce of gold can be dissolved in four fluid ounces of hydrochloric acid, and one fluid ounce of nitric acid. The forum teaches that to precipitate gold, use a bit more than one ounce of SMB for each ounce of gold expected.

It sounds like you're using hydrochloric acid and bleach (commonly referred to as HCl/Cl) to dissolve your gold. I'm not sure what you mean by "hcl-art", but it may be a translation problem or perhaps a different brand of bleach where you live. The HCl/Cl process just substitutes the bleach as the oxidizer instead of the nitric acid. It will require more HCl than Hoke's recommendation because the bleach is stabilized with a base, which will neutralize some of the HCl. You'll also use more bleach than you would nitric acid because it is not as strong an oxidizer.

The best method, regardless of the process you use, is to calculate how much HCl you think you'll need and add that to the metal. A little extra won't hurt. Then add your oxidizer a little at a time untill all the metal is dissolved. If an addition of the oxidizer doesn't cause a reaction, then try adding a little more HCl. The same applies to your precipitant. Calculate what you think you'll need. Add about 3/4 of that amount and let it react. Once the gold has settled a bit, take a sample of the solution and test for gold with stannous chloride. If gold is still in solution, add more precipitant. If not, you've used enough.

Using just the right amount of chemicals saves money and avoids a lot of problems.

Dave


----------



## kole55 (Feb 19, 2015)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Using too much acid and precipitant is a very common mistake. Hoke teaches us that a troy ounce of gold can be dissolved in four fluid ounces of hydrochloric acid, and one fluid ounce of nitric acid. The forum teaches that to precipitate gold, use a bit more than one ounce of SMB for each ounce of gold expected.
> 
> It sounds like you're using hydrochloric acid and bleach (commonly referred to as HCl/Cl) to dissolve your gold. I'm not sure what you mean by "hcl-art", but it may be a translation problem or perhaps a different brand of bleach where you live. The HCl/Cl process just substitutes the bleach as the oxidizer instead of the nitric acid. It will require more HCl than Hoke's recommendation because the bleach is stabilized with a base, which will neutralize some of the HCl. You'll also use more bleach than you would nitric acid because it is not as strong an oxidizer.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dave! Very useful information, and like I said I did it at the beginning (too much acid and too SMB), and I realized that it is wrong (yes, I read HOKE I took all the books, and I read on the amount and ratios) but as always, the book is one thing and practice something else. I could not be sure because the ratio of the book say 32% HCl and I use it, sometimes 16%, sometimes 20%, but never use 32% HCl. But, no matter what the intensity of use, now I practice very little acid and bleach and the last two processes I used only 20 ml of HCl and 8 ml of bleach and all the flakes dissolve and very nice gold chloride (very thick and beautiful colors. And I thought HCl/Cl not hcl-art and make it up. Now I have one question: after I cut off the fingers of RAM card (fingers processed in AP), whether it is okay to rest with IC chips put in hcl with the intention of chips separated from the boards. With a scalpel is slow and difficult, and I do not want to use the burner. I think the acid should dissolve the solder, after that pick up chips, washed, and go on processing (patnor method) Will it work?


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Feb 19, 2015)

Yes, HCl will dissolve the solder and the ICs will separate from the boards. 

Be careful when writing out formulas like HCl. Proper capitalization is important. Although most readers will understand that when you type hcl, you mean HCl, but that may not be true with other chemicals.  Take a look at the examples in my Chemical Formulas post. I provide some examples where the wrong capitalization with the exact same letters would be very different chemicals.

Dave


----------



## kole55 (Feb 19, 2015)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Yes, HCl will dissolve the solder and the ICs will separate from the boards.
> 
> Be careful when writing out formulas like HCl. Proper capitalization is important. Although most readers will understand that when you type hcl, you mean HCl, but that may not be true with other chemicals. Take a look at the examples in my Chemical Formulas post. I provide some examples where the wrong capitalization with the exact same letters would be very different chemicals.
> 
> Dave


Thank you Dave and you're right formula should be written completely correct!


----------

