# Safety learned the hard way



## kurtak (Sep 29, 2015)

Ok - for the last couple days I was trying to decide if I should post this in the safety section or here --- I decided here because I don't think the safety section gets read all that much - especially by new members & "lurkers" who are here "only" to learn "how to get the gold" --- & this post shows what I am taking about

This last Friday I stopped in at the local coin dealer that I sell my gold to who I also process stuff for which is why I deal with him - he pays me a good price for my metal & he always has stuff for me to process - I process all his gold filled & low grade silver (so its a two way business relationship) 

Anyway - when I stopped in on Friday he says - "hey I was just going to call you - had a guy come in yesterday & he has 14.5 lbs. of gold plated stainless steel that is supposed to yield around 3g/lb - if your interested we can call & see if he can bring it over --- I said call

So the guy brings it over & my first question is - how do you know it yields 3g/lb & how do you know its on SS & he says because I have the spec sheet on it which says 316 SS & I originally had 48 lbs & was processing it my self & this is the last of it & I was getting between 2.5 & 3.5g/lb & I am sure I lost gold (on the low yields)

So I asked - if you have been processing it why don't you just finish it & how were you processing it?

And he tells me - I was using HCl to dissolve away the SS (no H2O2) then AR on the foils & SMB to drop the gold

It was taking huge amounts of HCl to get rid of the SS & in the process I have "ruined everything" in my garage & even stuff in the house & it sent me to the hospital twice - once because of breathing problems from the fumes & once because I got acid in my eyes from the mist when looking in on a reaction - at first things started to get a little hazy & then went to a total blur & I had to crawl over to my neighbors (wife was gone) to get a ride to the hospital to have my eyes flushed out with 30 gallons of water over 3 hours

Here is the part that bothers me - I asked him where he learned to do what he was doing & he said - "on the internet & the different gold refining forums"

So I asked him if he was a member of GRF & he said - "no - I have only been to that forum (as a visitor) to get information about doing it - clearly he never read a single thing about safety

I can't help but wonder that with close 34,000 members - but only a (small) hand full that are active - & who knows how many that just visit to do nothing but pick "just enough" info to give it a try --- how many more stories like this one are actually out there?

I know of one more here in my local area - its not quite as bad as this one only because he did not end up going to the hospital - but other then that he had a total disregard for safety (until he met me & I started teaching him the importance of it)

I know we have talked about it before - but is there a way to set it up where people first have to read some information about dangers & safety & then answer a few questions before they can visit the forum let alone join it

It bothers me that we are providing information that allows people to hurt them selves & other because they can come here & learn "how to get the gold" but skip right over the dangers & safety part

I can't help but feel a responsibility "to make" people aware of the dangers & safety - before they are allowed access to info that can/will hurt them & others

To many people just wont look at the danger/safety part unless they are made to - because its gold they are after !

Here is a pic of the gold plated SS I got & a 1lbs sample run did yield right at 3.5g 

Kurt


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## Grelko (Sep 29, 2015)

kurtak said:


> I know we have talked about it before - but is there a way to set it up where people first have to read some information about dangers & safety & then answer a few questions before they can visit the forum let alone join it
> 
> It bothers me that we are providing information that allows people to hurt them selves & other because they can come here & learn "how to get the gold" but skip right over the dangers & safety part
> 
> ...



The only problem about having to take a lesson on safety, before being able to join this forums is, that most people are so... lets say "gold crazy" when they first start hear about it, that they'll most likely just go somewhere else to find the quick information  

I came here one time as a visitor when I first started hearing about this, while looking up a bunch of youtube videos about gold refining. I made sure to come back HERE to LEARN ALL THE PARTS THE VIDEOS DON'T SHOW, like the dangers, toxic fumes, and parts that they missed. Plus I didn't want to accidently melt my hands, face, house, neighbors, etc. 

PLEASE, if you are new here, yes you looking at the screen, put down the pliers and acids right now, read the safety section first, I know gold fever may be eating away at your brain, but you REALLY NEED to learn how to do this safely first.


By the way Kurtak, that's an extremely shiny bag you have there :shock:


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## goldenchild (Sep 29, 2015)

Unfortunately no matter what we do there will always be people that disregard the safety aspect of all this. It's unavoidable.


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## Anonymous (Sep 29, 2015)

Kurt

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. 8) 8)


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## Palladium (Sep 29, 2015)

Put simply. You can't fix stupid !


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## g_axelsson (Sep 29, 2015)

But you can fix the spelling of the subject on the first post... :lol: 
It's easier to find then in the search.

Göran


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## rickbb (Sep 29, 2015)

If this guy didn't learn anything after his first trip to the hospital, he's never going to learn anything. I'm surprised he wanted to let someone else recover the last of his lot. I suspect his wife made him, if not for her we may have seen another obit about a home gold "refiner".


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## UncleBenBen (Sep 29, 2015)

Being one of the new guys, I couldn't agree more about safety. In the next week or so I should be holding my first little button from three small runs of material. It's from the knowledge gained from the great folks of this forum (and Hoke) that I've learned to do this, and do it safely.
But, along with that knowledge, I feel an immense amount of gratitude for the wisdom I've also gained to know that this will be the last chemical processing I do until I finish putting together a safe, functional lab. If that's a few months away, great. If it's years I'm fine with that too.
I know few newbies would just stop like that, but its because I have spent enough time in the safety section to make that decision. I also know it would be next to impossible to force gold hungry folks into it. But what about forcing a pause. A reason to think twice about what we're doing. How about for us newbies after so many clicks in the forum we get a page like the "anti-bot" page with quick snippets of info about what these chemicals can do to us. A drop of caustic will blind you, the cumulative effects of metals in your body, maybe things that have happened to members like I've read about in 'safety'. Then after an agreeable amount of posts are made that could stop. 
Just a thought. And to let y'all know that the message of safety isn't lost on all of us. And I'll say it again, this place is awesome!


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## denim (Sep 29, 2015)

kurtak said:


> I can't help but feel a responsibility "to make" people aware of the dangers & safety - before they are allowed access to info that can/will hurt them & others
> 
> To many people just wont look at the danger/safety part unless they are made to - because its gold they are after !
> 
> ...



I'm with you 100% Kurt. I have felt for a long time there should be a test before any newcomer could post here on the forum. Safety for personnel and environment would be first on a test I would invoke on any newcomer. If they renege on their duties to learn first here on this forum, and they go on to youtube and learn some poor habits there, then at least we did our best to prevent it here on our end. Others have said it, and they are absolutely correct that you can't fix stupid. But we could perhaps guide some to a more intelligent approach to this hobby.

Dennis


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## JHS (Sep 29, 2015)

My blunt thoughts,
A person who doesn't care about anything or anybody will do what they want, until they kill or die.
And I am not there keeper.


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## kurtak (Sep 30, 2015)

g_axelsson said:


> But you can fix the spelling of the subject on the first post... :lol:
> It's easier to find then in the search.
> 
> Göran



Opps - proof read the post but not the title - its fixed now - I am having trouble with a couple keys on my key board - the l/L key is real bad - have to hit it 2 or 3 times sometimes before it registers - hope that's not happening with the e/E key now to

Guys - I am fully aware that you can't fix stupid (or as I say "stupid be - stupid do") & I am also fully aware that some people are going to go ahead with total disregard for safety no mater how much you try to drill it into their head - & I am not taking about making them do some kind of big long read about safety & then take a test that insures they fully understand everything about safety

I am simply taking about an introduction page that has a short read telling them that the information on the forum they are about to enter has processes & chemicals that have dangers & safety concerns that go along with doing this & that it is in their best interest to research & study that before going to work on processing

Three or four short paragraphs that address/express the danger/safety issue - with a question they need to answer for each paragraph to show they actually read the whole introduction --- instead of the way it is now --- Q; "are you interested in refining --- A; yes

Make it know - as an introduction --- that they have just found the world best source of information with some of the worlds best refiners here to help them - AND - that as such - our greatest concern is "their safety" 

Introduction - danger/safety - short sweat & to the point - do you understand (Q&A) (at least 3 maybe 4) - you have been made aware - safety is now your concern - not mine - welcome

If they don't want to do a 5 - 7 minute read & a 1 - 2 minute Q&A to access the info we provide --- then they can go else ware to learn to hurt them selves

Kurt


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## Grelko (Sep 30, 2015)

kurtak said:


> I am simply taking about an introduction page that has a short read telling them that the information on the forum they are about to enter has processes & chemicals that have dangers & safety concerns that go along with doing this & that it is in their best interest to research & study that before going to work on processing
> 
> 
> If they don't want to do a 5 - 7 minute read & a 1 - 2 minute Q&A to access the info we provide --- then they can go else ware to learn to hurt them selves
> ...



Sounds easy enough.

Precious metals refining is a dangerous yet satisfying job/hobby for professional refiners as well as hobbyists. The chemicals which we use to process these materials may endanger you, your family, or others well being, including any metallic objects in the area. Always use the proper safety gear and extreme caution when mixing these chemicals because they may produce toxic fumes and liquids which are hazardous to people and the enviornment. 

If you are truly interested in refining gold, silver and other precious metals, please click on the word "next" and it will send you to a short "safety lesson consisting of # questions", so that you may begin your new job or hobby as a precious metals refiner, thank you and have a nice day.

(questionnaire)

After they finish the questionaire, the "finished" button takes them directly to the safety section.

Existing members would be able to login directly and bypass the questionaire, but still get sent to the safety section first. Then we can just click "board index" and continue on as usual.

I would post this in the forum improvement section, but since we've been talking about it in here, I didn't want to go and post a new topic about it. Plus it can always be moved.


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## 4metals (Sep 30, 2015)

I think part of the problem is people come here as guests from a search engine result and can read an individual thread. So even if we were lucky enough to educate new members about the hazards, which would be worthwhile, the visitors from search engines are allowed access without becoming members. Maybe that is the problem.


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## Palladium (Sep 30, 2015)

Wait until the price of gold goes back up you think it's bad now! :mrgreen:


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## 4metals (Sep 30, 2015)

You're right Ralph, and when it does go back up all of the bad actors start showing up here. I would love to see 2 things, first a posting prohibition for a day or so. New members could read anything they want but no posting for a day or 2. 

Maybe that would eliminate a small percentage of the dumb questions or worse, the dumb questions asked by new members who never return to get their answers. Which totally wastes all of our time. 

Second, I would like to see all guests coming to check out something one of the spy bots found for them, have to become members. With the 2 day posting prohibition. 

Wishful thinking on my part.


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## migbham (Today at 12:39 PM)

kurtak said:


> Ok - for the last couple days I was trying to decide if I should post this in the safety section or here --- I decided here because I don't think the safety section gets read all that much - especially by new members & "lurkers" who are here "only" to learn "how to get the gold" --- & this post shows what I am taking about
> 
> This last Friday I stopped in at the local coin dealer that I sell my gold to who I also process stuff for which is why I deal with him - he pays me a good price for my metal & he always has stuff for me to process - I process all his gold filled & low grade silver (so its a two way business relationship)
> 
> ...


Hi there,

So...(hoping you're still around so many years later). I'm Dave, and have been one of those lurkers you reference. I've been a non-participating member here for years. In fact, this may well be my first actual post. I'd like to offer a differing perspetive, as an individual who has learned volumes from primarily this forum. 

Full disclosure - I am a hobbyist. I do not recover gold as a means of profit. In fact, I have only one button, which I watch grow by very small increments each time I combine it with the 2-3 small batches I recover and refine each year. I recover and refine gold for the same reason as the few other hobbies I have that don't relate to work - I'm a major tinkerer, and I love tinkering with hobbies that teach me. This hobby became particularly addictive not because I've made any money doing it, but because of that tiny pile of nearly-black powder that, when added to my small ceramic crucible, turns into something shiny and perfect, which then goes back into the tiny zip-lock bag in my drawer.

Not all of us lurkers come here just to get the Cliff's notes on getting rich quickly.  In fact, I came across your post because it was linked in another post I found when I was doing research this morning about better protecting myself from some of the nasty fumes emitted at the various high-reactivity stages of our process. I began processing about 6 years ago, and have made my fair share of what I now know to be really stupid mistakes (like that first time when I turned quite literally every metal object in my garage (including a Subaru) into a nice rusty shade of brown). I've since conducted ALL activities outside, fully outdoors, no shed, and most often with fans running between me and my refining, carrying as much as possible downwind, away from people, places and things.

But I want to do even better, so I came here to research and refresh myself on several posts I've read about recovering and neutralizing/scrubbing the brown gas from an AR gold dissolution. My processes, which are always on such tiny batches of high-end scrap as to yield 2-3g of gold, work well, and I know that they can always be even more clean, safe and higher yield than they are. 

I don't post for several reasons. There is nothing in the few processes I use that hasn't been in use and well-documented here, ad infinitim. I've read more threads than I can remember where a noob comes in to post excitedly about their success, and they invariably are told that they are cluttering the forum. I also read enough posts from new folks asking what I now know to be silly or dangerous questions, and the responses telling them to read Hokes that I felt no need to be reminded to read Hokes.

In fact, searching for an subsequently finding the PDF of "Refining Precious Metal Waste" was how I first found this forum. I've now read it countless times, and I admit that I still refer to it before I start a batch (e.g. I'm preparing to process some lids from old ceramic double-inline pinned CPU's, and I'm going to be using a Nitric leach for the first time). No matter how many times I find myself in Hokes' book, though, I always find the language to be a bit old, and I invariably wind up coming here to double and triple check myself before I even begin the mechanical preparation of whatever small pile it is that I'll be refining.

So some folks, or at least I, do not post not because I'm looking to quickly become a master alchemist and purveyor of recycled gold; I come and read because either I wish to become even better at responsibly enjoying my hobby, or because I've encountered some challenge. Because the methods I use are the basic ones that most hobbiest refiners use, I know that the answers are here, and I don't really see a point of asking a question that's already been answered. There's just not much to share that hasn't been shared, already. And despite what some folks seem to think, Hokes does not have *all* the answers. 

Here's one that's mystified me since the first time I dug into Hokes and actually did the calibration experiments that she details. I'll ask it. Take note - my first ever question on this board, and I'm posting it despite (because of?) having read Hokes' book dozens of times:

Do any of you actually consider it to be a sound practice to pour gasoline over material that you are incinerating? I sure don't.  But then again, I've not yet had the desire or courage to incinerate, pulverize, classify, pan, etc. 

If you are a veteran and ever feel like your shared experience is being taken for granted, please do know that, despite all of the silliness and danger that becomes evident when the "get rich quick" types do post here, there must be countless others like me who have learned to safely refine as a hobby from little other than the experience that is aggregated here. I may not have much of value to add, but I am grateful beyond words. I LOVE it when my little gold button grows, and it's even more enjoyable now that I don't have to replace the tools and cars that live in my garage. 

Thanks if you took time to read. Here's the most recent little button from what I recovered last week. It's obviously still dirty, and will be refined as I process my next small batch before the aggregate is combined with my "master button". I owe my buttons to the members of this forum, and I would not sell them for any amount of money. 

With gratitude,
Dave


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## FrugalRefiner (Today at 2:13 PM)

migbham said:


> Do any of you actually consider it to be a sound practice to pour gasoline over material that you are incinerating? I sure don't.  But then again, I've not yet had the desire or courage to incinerate, pulverize, classify, pan, etc.


Welcome into the light Dave! Nice first post.

The short, quick answer is that, no, pouring gasoline over material to incinerate it is NOT a good idea. There are a number of other things she suggested that are not good ideas like refining in the basement of your home, tasting wash waters, draping a wet handkerchief over your face to filter acid fumes, etc. I tried to cover many of them in the introduction I added to her book. You'll find them in the versions in my signature line below.

Dave


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## galenrog (Today at 2:52 PM)

Hoke advocated the best common practices of her day, but that was many decades ago. Her book is still invaluable due to having put much of the knowledge into relatively easy experiments.

Yes, some of the common practices of her day are considered hazardous today. That topic has been discussed innumerable times on this Forum.

All things considered, Refining Precious Metal Wastes is still the best primer available, teaching both basics and terminology.

Time for more coffee.

Oh, one more thing. Kurtak has moved. A few years ago he relocated to somewhere near John Day, Oregon. He still frequents the Forum.

Still time for more coffee.


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