# AP success



## wop1969 (Feb 27, 2009)

Well after 2 weeks of reading and turning my brain into jello, I made a run at the AP method on got some good foils, I only did a small batch as to go into this slow.







Next will come HCI-CL and so on, Hope I dont mess up

I do have a question, I did 2 batches and the end color of the solutions where diffrent, any explanations would be helpfull..


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## lazersteve (Feb 27, 2009)

Wop,

The color difference is likely due to the metals that were dissolved in the mix. The one on the right appears to be more yellowish brown to me, indicating that iron may be in the solution.

Steve


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## wop1969 (Feb 27, 2009)

hmmmm, that could be possible, I need to remeber what went into that batch. I will keep that in mind next time I am preping thing to go in a batch. Iron=bad Gold=good


Thanks Steve


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Feb 28, 2009)

Wop 1969:

Congratulations!!!!!!...keep us informed about your progress...I wish you much success.

Manuel


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## wop1969 (Feb 28, 2009)

Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:


> Wop 1969:
> 
> Congratulations!!!!!!...keep us informed about your progress...I wish you much success.
> 
> Manuel



Thanks Juan I will


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## wop1969 (Feb 28, 2009)

Update:

Here is the AuCl3 after much work, I hope it gives me some gold.
The first few runs are nerve racking as I have no idea if I will get the final product or make a big leadball


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## wop1969 (Feb 28, 2009)

lazersteve said:


> Wop,
> 
> The color difference is likely due to the metals that were dissolved in the mix. The one on the right appears to be more yellowish brown to me, indicating that iron may be in the solution.
> 
> Steve



Steve, what should I do to get the iron out and at what time in the proccess should it be done?


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## kmiles412 (Feb 28, 2009)

Hello All,

First post.  
I've been reading til my head spins. :lol: 

I've got 3 oz. of older finger foils that someone else peeled. I thank them.

I put them in AP (2 cups/1 cup ratio), it quickly turned dark green/brown. 
After stirring for about an hour, and seeing brown still on the foil, i drained the foils, saving the solution of course. I put AP (6 cup/3 cup ratio) back on them. I know its not an instant remover. After a while they are starting to clean nice nice.  

How much solution to the oz. of foils before its saturated?
How do i know if its saturated? When/if to replenish with HY. Per.?
How does the temp affect the process? It is 25' F here in NY.  
It got warm when i started it and i saw vapors but its not warm any more.

Also: 
I put 1 oz of older traces in AP (4cups/2 cups) in another batch. It quickly went to golden yellow then went to dark green. As i stirred them a little while later i saw very shiny (Nickel?) normal? and gold. Waiting and stirring, i see the traces getting smaller.  

Is there a link to separate the metals out one at a time? Autodrop? What not to use in this solution?

I can't wait to get my first button of pure gold! The General :twisted: has been waiting since last year! Wondering if it's gonna happen.

Thanks for all the great advice and help. Much needed and welcome.
Keith


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## wop1969 (Feb 28, 2009)

kmiles412, I would love to answer all of your questions but I am but a baby to this still, I would be afraind that I would say the wronge thing if I was to address any of the questions you posed. 
Maybe in a month or two 

I can comment on one thing, the tempature outside  its 30 here, a bit warmer but still cold, I still have a good reaction going in my batches even in the cold, I dont know if im am just lucky or it dont matter at 30 degres but I do go out and shake them every few hours, but I do think it is safe to say that the reaction will continue in the cold it just gets slower and will work untill it hits freezing, it would probly stop then


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## JustinNH (Mar 1, 2009)

kmiles412 said:


> I've got 3 oz. of older finger foils that someone else peeled. I thank them.
> 
> I put them in AP (2 cups/1 cup ratio), it quickly turned dark green/brown.
> After stirring for about an hour, and seeing brown still on the foil, i drained the foils, saving the solution of course. I put AP (6 cup/3 cup ratio) back on them. I know its not an instant remover. After a while they are starting to clean nice nice.
> ...



Heres some tips I learned myself and mostly picked up from the Forum (and Steve's videos). In my experience everythign i say works, but im open to correction from other members 

1- For that amount of fingers.... just cover them in HCl, with a little extra on top so when you agitate them none will end up uncovered. You don't need much at all.

2- I think you may have put way too much H202 for that amount of fingers. Too much H202 will dissolve the gold. If there is enough copper in the solution, the gold will self drop out as fine black mud. 

3- I would set it all up, stir for a few min then let it sit. After an hour or two, go back stir some more. Should see bubbles come out. Then let it sit for a few more hours (rather overnight) and then it should be good. As it is colder now, it may need longer. In the spring when it would be 60-70 in the day and 50 at night i could strip a large amount with none noticeably dissolved (negative stannous, no dropped gold). Key is to not rush it...

4- If it is saturated, the solution is a very dark green. You can add more H202 then if they are still not stripped, but I found water will do just as well to get it going (some pump air through). But from the amounts you said you added to your fingers, I don't think the solution would get fully saturated with copper chloride. Atleast in my experience.

5- Yes, temp will effect it. I just ran a batch when it was below freezing at night and it took 2-3x as long (i didnt watch it as closely) but still worked.
If it is too hot out, there is also a better chance gold may get dissolved faster. 
I dont know at what temp HCl freezes, but it is very low. Earler this year, i put refinign aside for duck hunting and one day i checked all my stuff. It was single digits and the HCl was perfectly fine and still works.

Hope that helps a bit, good luck! 8)


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## wop1969 (Mar 18, 2009)

I had to go away for a few weeks and when I returned my AuCl had a metalic film floating on top, is this the gold?


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## Harold_V (Mar 18, 2009)

wop1969 said:


> I had to go away for a few weeks and when I returned my AuCl had a metalic film floating on top, is this the gold?


It can be, assuming your gold chloride was ready for precipitation. It's not unusual to see a minor reaction with constituents of air (think SO2, for example). When a solution is free of nitrides, gold is eager to revert back to the elemental form. 

What's important is if the solution still tests positive for values. The amount shown appears to be very small, and floating on the surface. Surface tension is keeping in suspension what little is present as elemental gold. Considering gold is 19.3 times heavier than water, it is likely so light you couldn't weigh it even If you could recover the floating material for the purpose. I would recommend you simply precipitate and allow it to mix with the rest of the values. If, by chance, what you see isn't gold, it would be removed in a follow-up refining, assuming that becomes your policy. I recommend it does if you are quality minded. Not really necessary if you're in the game for gold to sell to a refiner. 

Harold


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## wop1969 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks Harold. I was worried but low and behold  I mixed the 2 AuCl batches and poured in the SMB and it worked. It has been a long weeks worth of work to get to this point but here it is, Red mud!! later I will strain it and move forward. Also after I dropped the gold the acid turned clear and I strarted another run with it and it seems work better then the fresh HCL, I have a waste container with copper chloride that has a piece of copper pushing any remaining gold out, once strained I will hook up the power supply and drop the copper and reclaim all the HCL, I suggest this to anyone as it works great and the recycled HCL works awsome and no waste to hide till amnesty day 

Once more thanks to everyone that has dealt with all my questions


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## Harold_V (Mar 20, 2009)

Here's a little tip that can save you some grief. It's been well discussed, but I think most readers don't grasp the idea, or don't understand the significance. 

After you've precipitated your gold, don't put it in a filter. There's no reason to do so, for in order to clean it it must be placed back in a beaker to be washed. 

Instead, decant the barren solution, then proceed directly to the washing cycles. After the final rinse, you can force dry the gold right in the beaker, taking care to not allow any to be lost by steam explosions. Swirl the gold frequently so it can't form steam bubbles, then force dry it until no vapors are emitted. When gold has been well washed, it usually will agglomerate into clumps, which are much easier to handle, and you don't leave anything behind in a filter. 

By the way, congratulations on a job well done! :wink: 

Harold


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## wop1969 (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks on the congrat Harold. 

What a great way to deal with the mud  I filtered another small batch today and melted it, WHat a pain getting it out of the filter just like you said and I know thier was loss and now I will have to rinse the filter into another batch witch seems a waste of time. I will use the method you described next time for sure.


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## wop1969 (Mar 20, 2009)

wop1969 said:


> Also after I dropped the gold the HCL/CL turned clear and I strarted another run with it and it seems work better then the fresh HCL



Ok like i stated this works great but this solution was HCL/CL befor and now when I droped in a test peice, the gold has desolved into the solution LOL I should have seen that coming. So the jist of it is use reclaimed HCL/PX for getting foils and use reclaimed HCL/CL to desolve the foils Only. 

Mabey if I let the HCL/CL sit it would gas off the CL and could then be mixed with PX to get foils ?


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## glorycloud (Mar 23, 2009)

I have an ounce of gold in solution as auric cloride. I am wanting to precipitate out the gold with SMB. Do I need to dilute with water first? All the gold came from closely cut fingers and I don't think that there should be silver in the solution.

Secondly, would anyone recommend how much SMB I should use to precipitate out an ounce of gold?

Muchas gracias!!


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## wop1969 (Mar 23, 2009)

Ok I am no expert but I have done this once with good success so I will explain the directions I used 

One thing on SMB it depends on the ammount of AuCl and the gold concentraion in the AuCl, look at my avatar, that is the amount of AuCl these instructions are intended for. I am sure their are variables but all that really matters in the end is that the gold precips 
as for preciping an ounce ,you should wait for an expert to comment on the water/SMB amounts I describe below, I am almost sure it would take more to precip and ounce. ( I wish that was my only delema) 

First let the AuCl sit overnight To gas off the CL.
Dilute with water 3 times the amount you have then take 240Ml of water (tap will do) mix in 28 grams of SMB stir till SMB is desolved. Pour in about half the SMB and stir, wait 15 and add the other Half of the SMB solution and stir then let it sit over night to amke sure all the gold is preciped. after the gold precips as redish mud test the AuCl with StCl to see if all the gold is preciped, if not let it sit a few more hours and if it still has gold then do another SMB treatment at half the volume described above.

once you get the gold out filter the left over solution and if it is clear I am preety sure you can re-use ot for the next batch of AuCl with the addition of some more CL.
Lazersteves website has complete videos on this if you want to see it in action befor you try it 
http://www.goldrecovery.us

Please anyone correct me if I am wrong on any of this :?:


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## glorycloud (Mar 29, 2009)

what is the best way to remove the washed and dried gold powder out of the beaker (Goodwill coffee pot in my case)? I'm not real mechanical so your practical suggestions are appreciated!


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## Harold_V (Mar 29, 2009)

glorycloud said:


> what is the best way to remove the washed and dried gold powder out of the beaker (Goodwill coffee pot in my case)? I'm not real mechanical so your practical suggestions are appreciated!


If, while drying, you swirled the gold around to prevent it from sticking to the vessel, it should have clumped up and behaved more or less as a solid. 

A great deal depends on how clean the gold was when it precipitated. If yours remains as a fine powder, or if you didn't swirl it as it dried, that may not be the case. 

Assuming it did as I described, it should pour right out, leaving little, if anything, behind. 

Might be a good idea for you to describe what yours looks like. 

Is it stuck to the vessel? Fine particles, not clumped up? Did you force dry the gold by heating the vessel above the boiling point of water?

Harold


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## glorycloud (Mar 29, 2009)

right now I have completed the first wash with boiling HCL, then water and them the ammonium hydroxide. Tomorrow I will do the second wash. I have been swirling the powder which has gone from the chocolate brown color to the more yellow brown color. It is not sticking to the coffee pot at all. After the next three rinses, should I slowly dry it on the hot plate being sure to not lose any of the powder to steam explosions?
When dry, should it just "pour" the powder out of the coffee pot and into the prepped 3" melting dish provided my thet lazersteve fellow?


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## Harold_V (Mar 30, 2009)

glorycloud said:


> I have been swirling the powder which has gone from the chocolate brown color to the more yellow brown color.


That's exactly what you should expect. As the gold sheds the dragged down contaminants, the color improves. 



> It is not sticking to the coffee pot at all.


I wouldn't expect it to at this juncture. I thought, from your original question, that you had finished the washing procedure. If that were the case, and you had force dried the gold without swirling it occasionally, residues in the rinse will often glue the gold to the vessel. They don't harm the quality because they are normally not metallic in nature, just the hard substances that come from water. If you used distilled water, that may not be an issue. All depends on how well the gold gets rinsed. 



> After the next three rinses, should I slowly dry it on the hot plate being sure to not lose any of the powder to steam explosions?


Yep, that's the drill! Start out with a very low heat, so the water slowly evaporates. Swirl occasionally, so the gold will clump up and keep wiping the vessel free of fine residues. The swirling also helps prevent the steam explosions. If the gold is clean enough, when it starts drying, it will all stick together in small clumps. Be advised that on occasion it fails to do so, so you end up with fine powder that is a bitch to handle. Even so, if you can get it to the melting dish, it will melt fine, you just have to use a low velocity flame, which you can accomplish be holding the torch well back until the gold starts to melt. A very light sprinkle of borax can help cause the tiny beads to flow together, but don't overdo the flux. 



> When dry, should it just "pour" the powder out of the coffee pot and into the prepped 3" melting dish provided my thet lazersteve fellow?


Again, that's pretty much the drill. 

One thing on drying. You'll notice that the gold will lighten up in color considerably when it starts losing the last bit of water. Don't stop heating at that point. Allow the gold to get fully dried, with additional heat. You'll notice that smells leave the gold----traces of things that don't evaporate with the water. 

Luck! 

Show us your button when you're finished.

Harold


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## glorycloud (Mar 30, 2009)

awesome! thanks for the mentoring.


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## glorycloud (Mar 30, 2009)

Here is what it looks like after the second wash. I'm just waiting for the water to evaporate off.


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## Noxx (Mar 30, 2009)

Looks very nice to me


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## glorycloud (Mar 30, 2009)

now, if I can just keep from blowing it out of the melting dish tomorrow, I might be able to post a nice looking "chunk-o-gold" soon!


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## qst42know (Mar 30, 2009)

If you have an old steel cookie sheet and work on top of it, any crumbs that get ejected by the torch from the melt dish are easier to recover.


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## glorycloud (Mar 30, 2009)

great idea - thx!


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## glorycloud (Mar 31, 2009)

OK - here is the first button. It's sadly deformed as we had some trouble with the MAPP gas running out of oxygen and then the propane torch ean out as well. LOL!! A real comedy!!  

Anyway, it's in a 3" dish and weighed in at 26" grams. It came from 10 pounds of fingers processed in AP. Thanks for all the suggestions and help along the way. It was a lot of work but watching the powder melt in the button was like (in some small measure) your first child being born. :lol:


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## lazersteve (Mar 31, 2009)

glorycloud said:


> ... we had some trouble with the MAPP gas running out of oxygen..



I have found that straight MAPP works fantastic for melting gold indirectly if the dish is set into a hollowed out section of firebrick and covered with a second brick while melting.

After preparing the dish with borax, simply position the torch in the side of the brick just below the bottom of the dish. Cover the dish with a second brick to keep the heat in. You will need a tip that produces a good broad flame.


Here are a few photos:







*The parts for the setup.*













*The torch position.*







*The furnace position when melting.*







*The top brick placement.*


The rig will melt several ounces of gold in less than 1 hour with no direct flame on the gold. The dish is heated from below and the bricks keep the heat in. When the dish becomes glowing white hot the gold powder will melt and flow together into a button.

If anyone would like a preformed brick for their dish, just let me know and I can provide you with one at a reasonable price. I'm even considering selling a prebuilt 'mini furnace' kit if interest is good enough.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Mar 31, 2009)

Hi Steve I have that same torch. Is there a vent that I don't see?

thanks,

Jim


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## lazersteve (Mar 31, 2009)

The air intake vent is the dark spot just above the section with the red igniter push button. 

The furnace vents around the edges of the dish since the dish is not fully recessed into the firebrick.

Steve


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## wop1969 (Mar 31, 2009)

Congrats, glorycloud

Hopefully I will have a photo of my own to post here also. (soon?)
Life has been getting in the way of finishing mine, I also fear it will not be as big as that but it’s the sense of accomplishment that matters at this point 

Steve, I got to hand it to you, have some good ideas.


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## wop1969 (Apr 1, 2009)

I have been testing some solutions and just wanted a second opinion on this.

The first picture was right after I put the StCl on the samples, the second picture was the next day after the samples dried.
Also, from left to right I diluted the solution just to see the diffrence, I was kinda testing my StCl making skills and just experimenting.

I thought purple to black was normal but black to purple threw me off.
Any info would be great?


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## peaksilver2012 (Apr 14, 2009)

...and tried to emulate the prep of the crucible. I don't have oxy/acetylene, so went and bought a MAPP torch. Heated the dish as instructed, but when I dropped in Borax, it just caked off the the upper edges, and puddled into an uneven mess in the bottom. So, 3 questions:
1. Is the dish not hot enough?
2. If so, how do I prep the dish using a home-made mini furnace per Steve's photos without losing the heat when I remove the top brick to drop in Borax?
3. Any way I can clean out the gloop in the bottom of my dish and start over or should I just chalk it up to experience and buy another one?

Finally, kudos to Steve, Harold and others on the list. Your knowledge and xp are invaluable and so very appreciated.

Preston - Peak Silver


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## qst42know (Apr 14, 2009)

peaksilver2012 said:


> ...and tried to emulate the prep of the crucible. I don't have oxy/acetylene, so went and bought a MAPP torch. Heated the dish as instructed, but when I dropped in Borax, it just caked off the the upper edges, and puddled into an uneven mess in the bottom. So, 3 questions:
> 1. Is the dish not hot enough?
> 2. If so, how do I prep the dish using a home-made mini furnace per Steve's photos without losing the heat when I remove the top brick to drop in Borax?
> 3. Any way I can clean out the gloop in the bottom of my dish and start over or should I just chalk it up to experience and buy another one?
> ...



Mapp or propane torch doesn't have the flame intensity of an oxy/acetylene torch. With this limitation in mind a little bit of soda ash can stretch the limits of a small torch. It will give you a more fluid flux but is a bit corrosive to the silica in melt dishes. By melting some soda ash you should be able to save your dish. Get it extra hot, tip and roll the fluid around the dish or stir with a carbon rod to dissolve the extra borax while never removing the flame, and pour out the surplus.


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## lazersteve (Apr 14, 2009)

I am working on a short video of me melting gold with only MAPP gas and the mini-furnace. It takes a little less than an hour to heat and melt about an ounce of gold powder.

I prep the dish with direct heat from the MAPP torch and sprinkle in the borax when it gets very hot (slightly red in the middle). The borax will crust up as you found, but continue direct heating and it will darken then go clear and melt onto the dish. Now, while heating, lift the dish with some long pliers and tilt it around while heating until borax coats the dish. You may need to sprinkle a little more borax in to get a complete coating.

After the dish is prepared, place the empty dish in the lower half of the mini furnace and lay your lit torch in the lip of the mini-furnace opening. Be sure the torch tip is just barely inside the opening of the mini furnace or the tip with burn in the intense heat of the furnace.Prop the torch up firmly so it can not move or roll on you.

Place the top half of the furnace on and let it heat for about 5 minutes.

Once the borax in the dish is shiny, lift the top of the furnace off and carefully add your gold powder into the hot dish in the furnace. Do not fill the dish above the rim or beyond the borax coating!

Replace the top of the furnace and let it cook for another 30 minutes. You should see an intense white glow coming from under the dish as it cooks.

After 30 minutes lift the top and check to see if the gold is molten. If not let it heat another 10 minutes and check again. The gold will melt when the furnace comes up to temperature. Try not to check it too often or the oven will cool.

Once the gold is molten and in a nice glowing green rounded button, sprinkle a dash of borax on top to remove any surface debris from the furnace top.

Cut off the torch and let the button cool until it is glowing red.

Lift the button out with a set of long needle nose pliers or stainless steel tweezers. 

Quench the button in cold water.

Give the button a 5 minute heating in 10% sulfuric acid and rinse in clean water. 

Any soapy borax remaining on the button will easily come off with a quick wash then wipe.

The mini-furnace is now for sale on my website and they are selling fast.

I include a melting dish when you buy one. Each one is hand made by yours truly. :wink: 

http://www.goldrecovery.us/pricing.asp

I also have improved my check out process with instant invoicing and payment via paypal checkout and shopping cart.

Keep watching my website videos for the mini-furnace video demonstration!!!

Steve


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## nicknitro (Apr 15, 2009)

wop1969,

wopWorks is awesome, "You had me at paintball minigun" LOL. That looks insane. You are awesome :lol: 

Keep On Keepin On,
Nick


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## wop1969 (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks Nick 

do you get into paintball? or weapons?


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## nicknitro (Apr 15, 2009)

Wop, 

Don't all grown boys I mean men. LOL 
I have less experience with weapons, but paintball is cool. I only have like a few walmart staples I take out with some friends weekends, to get out of the house and have some fun, but I don't think I have ever seen anything like your mini-gun. WOW. I'd like to see the expression on some of my friends faces if I whipped that out LOL, yeah you're right, if someone was useing that in a sporting paintball gun match all they would see is the backside of the competition, LOL.

Cool site, I look forward to the final version.

Nick


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## bmgold (May 4, 2009)

> All,
> 
> I have had numerous requests for a video demonstrating the use of the Mini-Firebrick furnace that I have been selling on my website.
> 
> ...



I got my mini-furnace from Lazersteve and it works just like the video shows. I had to use imitation gold since I still don't have enough real gold to melt ... YET ...

The video was real good, especially the part on preparing the melting dish with the borax. I had my borax floating around like it was snowing when I got the torch too close to the freshly added borax. The picture of the melting dish with a crack made me think that maybe I didn't do something wrong with mine. Mine got a few cracks in it but it is still holding together. I'm glad I ordered a couple extra melting dishes with my order since even if it doesn't crack apart, it is now contaminated from melting other metals in it. It does appear to work pretty good for melting small amounts of the yellow casting shot that I ordered before to practice sand casting. This may be the incentive I need to get that toy figured out.



> P.S. I have many more videos to upload when I find the time between my numerous projects. I also want to thank all my loyal customers and fellow forum members for their continued support.



Keep the videos coming. Seeing something done makes it much easier to understand than just reading about it. Thanks for providing the group (and others) with all the information on your site as well as all the answers and help you give on this forum.


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## glorycloud (May 4, 2009)

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)


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## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

Nice setup!


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