# How to estimate the amount of gold in electronics and jewelry



## catfish

How to estimate the amount of gold in jewelry and electronics scrap.

Karat Gold jewelry:

9 karat gold is 9/24 = 0.375; 37.5% pure gold

10 karat gold is 10/24= 0.417; 41.7% pure gold

12 karat gold is 12/25= 0.500; 50% pure gold

14 karat gold is 14/24= 0.583; 58.3% pure gold

18 karat gold is 18/24= 0.750; 75% pure gold

22 karat gold is 22/24= 0.917; 91.7% pure gold

24 karat gold is 24/24= 1.00; 100% pure gold



Gold filled jewelry and decorative items.

1/10 12 karat = 0.10 time’s total weight of object times the karat percentage.

1/20 14 karat = 0.05 time’s total weight of object times the karat percentage

Example = 1/20 gold filled 12 karat ring that weighs 8 grams.

0.05 x 8 x 0.5 = 0.2 grams of (theoretical) pure gold in ring.

Filled Value x Weight x Karat = Weight pure 24kt gold


Gold rolled (heavy plated) jewelry and decorative items 

1/100 to 1/40 total weigh times the karat rating of item.

Example = 1/100 gold rolled (plated) 14 Karat ring that weighs 3 grams.

0.01 x 3 x 0.583 = 0.0175 grams of (theoretical) pure gold in ring.

Rolled Value x Weight x Karat = Weight pure 24kt Gold






Gold plated jewelry and electronics items.

One must first determine the class of gold thickness of the item in question. Once the thickness is obtained or estimated, then determine the square surface area of the item and then there are two methods to figure out approximately how much theoretical pure gold is in the item.

Decorative Applications:

Gold flash 7 micro inches
Gold electroplate 10 micro inches
Gold plate 20 micro inches
Heavy gold plate	100 micro inches

Engineering Applications

Class 00 20 micro inches
Class 0 30 micro inches
Class 1 50 micro inches
Class 2 100 micro inches
Class 3 200 micro inches

Military specifications:

Additional classes

Class 4 300 micro inches
Class 5 500 micro inches
Class 6 1500 micro inches

The formula for determining content of gold in decorative is the same as electronics scrap.

Electronics Circuit Board Fingers

Silverpro’s method:

Daily price of gold times the square inch surface area times the thickness.

Example: Gold prices at $655.00 an ounce. And you have a total of 40 square inches of surface in 50 ea. DIMM 100 pin memory sticks. Estimating the class as class 0, or 30 micro inches thick plating.

Base value figure is 1/1000 Spot price per micro in. X surface area in.

0.655 x (gold price) 40 sq in. x 0.30 (thickness) = $7.86 of gold at today’s prices.

Catfish’s method:

Measure the square surface area of the item and total the aggregate amount of square surface area of all the items and then determine the cubic volume of theoretical gold. This final result will be in cubic inches. Then convert cubic inches to cubic centimeters. Take the result of total cubic centimeters times 19.3 and this will give you the amount of gold in grams.

One cubic centimeter of gold weighs 19.3 grams.
$655.00/31.1 grams/ounce = $21.06 per gram.

Example: Gold prices at $655 an ounce. Same square surface area of 40 inches.

40 square inches times 0.000030 inches =0.0012 cubic inches
0.0012 cubic inches = 0.0197 cc.
0.0197 x 19.3 = 0.380 grams
0.380 x 21.06 = $8.00 worth of gold at today’s prices.

Actual test case on 50 sticks of memory

Test conducted on 7/5/2007 on 50 sticks of DIMM 100 pin memory.

50 sticks of DIMM memory weighs 2.03 lbs
Trimmed fingers weigh 68 grams

The gold plated surface on each finger measures

0.04 in. by 0.10 in. = total 0.004 sq. in. per pad on each finger.

There are 100 pins with both sides gold plated. 

0.04 x 0.10 x 100 x 2 =0.8 sq. in. per board x 50 ea = 40 sq in. total surface.

The above mathematical derived results come out to approximately 0.38 grams of pure gold in the 50 circuit boards.

The fingers were refined in Aqua Regia and the result gold was 0.4 grams. It was refined the second time to obtain maximum purity and it came out to 0.3 grams of pure gold. 

The actual test results came out very close to the mathematical results. The accuracy of the scale is in tenths of a gram, unable to get a 100th measurement. 

Conclusion:	The mathematical results matched the actual test results and were well within acceptable limits for the determination of gold cold content of electronics circuit boards.


Actual test case on 152 SCSI Controller circuit board fingers

Test conducted July 7, 2007 on 152 SCSI circuit board fingers.

The gold plated area on each of the fingers was 

0.04 in. by 0.18 in. = 0.0072 sq in of surface.

0.0072 x 54 (foils) x 2 (sides) = 0.7776 sq. in. per x 152 fingers = 118.2 sq. in. gold plated surface.

Silverpro’s method

0.655 x 118.2 x 0.30 = $23.23 of gold in fingers

Catfish’s method
118.2 sq. in. x 0.000030 (class 0) =0.0003546 cu. In.

0.003546 cu. In. = 0.0581 cubic centimeters

0.0581 X 19.3 = 1.12 grams of pure gold

1.12 grams at $21.6 = $23.58 worth of gold.

The actual fingers refined in Aqua Regia yielded 1.2 grams the first process. Ran it again through Aqua Regia 2nd time for purity and it yielded 1.1 grams of very pure gold.

The test results were very close to the mathematical results. Well within acceptable limits for determining the gold content in Electronics scrap.

On both test cases:
1.	50 ea. memory sticks. 
Silverpro’s estimate was 0.37 grams
Catfish estimate was 0.38 grams
Actual gold was 0.4 grams #1 refining process
Actual gold was 0.3 grams #2 refining process

2. 152 ea. SCSI boards.
Silverpro’s estimate was 1.10 grams
Catfish’s estimate was 1.12 grams
Actual gold was 1.2 grams #1 refining process
Actual gold was 1.1 grams #2 refining process

You can see that the end results are well with in acceptable limits in calculating the gold content in Circuit board fingers or edge connectors.

Conclusion:

After evaluating the two methods of determining the approximate amount of gold in electronic scrap (circuit board edge connectors or fingers) , I recommend that the method that Silver pro uses is much faster, less complex and certainly accurate enough for all practical purposes for estimating the quantity and value of electronics scrap.



Catfish

Acknowledgements’

Many thanks for Lazersteve and Goldsilverpro’s contributions to this docum


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## Ian_B

Very Informative , I recommend this gets posted to the tutorials.


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## catfish

Ian:

I appreciate your comments, but Lazersteve is working on a tutoral on how to determine the amount of gold in different items, Which I am sure will be much more informative and very professional.

Thanks,

Catfish


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## aflacglobal

I've said it before, and i'll say it again.

That's one smart fish.

Bet you can't get that over at shor. :shock: 

Great piece of work Tom.  :wink: :wink: :wink:


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## goldsilverpro

My method and Catfish's method, of calculating the gold value of plated objects, only vary by about 1.5%. Pretty close.

I hope that I don't confuse everyone but, I would like to alter my method a little bit. I think that my new method will make it easier to understand how it works. Here's the whole thing. The only change is in *(3)*, below.

Why would you want to go through this rigmarole? I use it mainly for buying and selling, when I don't have an assay. I've used it a lot to estimate the value of stuff on Ebay. When dealing scrap, knowledge is king. Although the method is only ballpark, it's better than having no idea of the value.

*(1) Make measurements and calculate the total gold plated surface area.* You want to know how many square inches or, how many square centimeters of surface you have. You need to break the plated part down into it's geometric shapes. 

Fingers are easy because they are rectangles. You just measure the width and length of one finger, multiply these together, and multiply this answer times the total number of fingers. If you have 50 sets of identical fingers, multiply that answer times 50. All this gives the total surface area on these particular 50 sets of identical fingers. For a round thin pin, you multiply the diameter times pi (3.1416) times the length. For a thick round pin, you also have to calculate the area of the end. For a square thin pin, multiply the width of one side times 4 times the length.

Type in - surface area formulas - in Google. Some sites will give drawings of the different geometric shapes and their surface area formulas. I will look for a good one and post it in the Glossary section.

You can measure in several different ways. The cheapest way is to use a triangle shaped plastic architect's ruler. You can get plenty of accuracy using one of these rulers. Get the one that measures in tenths of an inch and learn to estimate reading it in between the lines (marks). Don't ever measure in 1/16ths, 1/8ths, etc. This would make the calculations much more complicated. For small measurements, you can place the ruler on the object and use something like a 10X eye loupe to read it.

My favorite is a cheap set of calipers that measures in a decimal part of an inch and, not in 1/16", 1/32", etc. If you can pay more, you can get one that has a dial for the last digit. The cheaper ones have a vernier and that is a little more difficult to get used to.

Probably, the best is a comparator. This is an eye loupe that has a scale built into it. You can get a variety of screw-on scales for it.

You could use a micrometer but, they are cumbersome.

*(2) Estimate the gold plating thickness.* This may be the most important factor. You have to have an idea of how much is needed for different types of parts. Gold plating is measured in millionths of an inch. Another name for this is microinches. I will refer to them as micro". First of all, you must understand that this is a pure educated guess. You must understand that the thickness of gold plating has changed over the years. Also, the plating on such things as fingers or pins can run all over the map. I have seen fingers that ran from 15 micro" to 80 micro". It depends on the usage requirements and which company made the parts.

On the average, Catfish has been using 30 micro", with very good success, for things that plug into other things, whether male or female, or for those things that rub against other things, such as those tiny gold plated balls in small multi-switches. This includes such things as gold plated connector pins and many fingers. This has also been pretty well confirmed by lazersteve's yields.

For things that have to be heated, in order to solder an integrated circuit (chip, die) to a package, you can figure 50 (40 to 60) micro". This includes many CPU's, sidebraze IC's, etc. It also includes hybrid packages (microwave, etc) that often contain hybrid circuits. The gold thickness on all these types of packages have run quite consistent over the years, unlike fingers.

For everthing else, you are on your own. There are hints, however. For things that just sit there, on run-of-the-mill electronic equipment, figure 15-20 micro". The gold is there only for mild corrosion protection. It doesn't need wear resistance. If you run across some rare, high tech, military part that has to withstand high current flow or a highly corrosive environment, the thickness could be out of sight. Most common modern items run between 12 micro" to 35 micro".

Two ways to really know the real gold thickness, on specific parts, is to assay them or to refine them (the whole batch or, just a few of them, as a sample). You can then measure and calculate the surface area. From this, you can calculate the gold thickness. There are specific types of equipment that measure plating thickness. The Microderm and Betascope utilize radioactive isotopes to do this. The Kocour machine actually dissolves a small spot of the plating. There is also X-ray thickness measuring equipment. Most all of these need standards in order to set them up. You can also plate backup nickel on the gold plate, make a metallurgical mount, polish and etch it, and measure the thickness using a metallurgical microscope. I have lots of experience using all of the methods and equipment (except for x-ray) covered in this paragraph. If you want more info on any of these, let me know.

A special category is gold brazes. They probably run from 500 to 1000 micro" thick. A 80/20, gold/tin braze is used around the edge on gold plated lids used to seal IC packages, such as some CPU's, side braze packages, or all-gold plated hybrid packages. Also, on many of these same parts, a 96/4 (I think), gold/silicon braze is used to attach the chip.

The mil specs and other official thickness charts, concerning electronic parts, aren't that helpful unless you know what thickness Class Number was called out when that exact part was manufactured. If you assayed parts, you could probably get some correlation between the data, however. The official decorative gold plating charts are a little more helpful, since some plated jewelry is marked. If you see a marking of H.G.E., e.g., you know it should be 100 micro" thick, when new. 

*(3) Calculate the gold plating value.*

First, for us in the US, who have measured things in square inches.
(a) Get the spot market price of gold, in dollars per troy ounce. Divide this number by 100,000 (ten thousand) on the calculator (Note: This is the only change I made in my method). This gives the dollar value of one square inch of gold plating, one micro" thick. Let this sink in your brain. For example, if the gold price were $660 per tr.oz., the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, would be 660 divided by 100,000 or, $.066. Please note that this was a little discovery of mine and you won't find it anywhere else. I just noticed that, when I calculated the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, using the density of gold, etc., it just happened to be within 1.5% of dividing the spot price by 100,000. Pure coincidence.

(b) Multiply this times the gold thickness in micro" and multiply this times the number of square inches you have.

Dollar value of gold plating = Spot price divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square inches.

Example: The gold spot is $650. You have 9.58 square inches of gold plate that you estimate to be 30 micro" thick.
650 divided by 100,000 X 9.58 X 30 = $1.87.

For those measuring in centimeters and calculating area in square centimeters:

Spot price in US dollars divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square centimeters divided by 6.452.

You'll have to convert other currency values on your own.

Play with this. It's easier than I've made it sound. As you probably know by now, I'm a detail guy. Just remember it's limitations. At best, it's a estimate, which will often (but, not always) be a bit on the low side.

Chris

NOTE: I originally made an error in this post. Instead of dividing the spot by 100,000, I divided by 10,000. The correct number is 100,000. I have edited this post to the correct value.


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## lazersteve

Chris,

As a side note to your excellent post, you can find the plating thickness for milspec equipment if you have the NSN (National Stock Number). There are numerous lookup sites on the internet that will give you all the plating data on the parts.

Steve


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## goldsilverpro

Excellent, Steve. Didn't know that. Do you have any links? How do you get the NSN?


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## lazersteve

Chris the NSN is typically posted on the packaging of a part if bought as new old stock. If bought from government auction sites the NSN's are provided. Components that are large enough to be individually marked, like cannon plug assemblies will have the NSN or equivalent printed right on the side.

Here's a photo of a cannon plug assembly that I've purchased:







I cross indexed the MS3112E14-19P stamped on the housing at 

http://5935.iso-parts.com/nsn/

By looking up the NSN number for the housing in the lower section of the page, I found the actual NSN to obtain the data below:

Here's the NSN Technical data for that item's NSN:

MS3112E14-19P

Note the listing for the grains of gold and plating thickness near the bottom in the section.:wink: 

Pretty handy eh?!

Of course you need milspec items with part numbers. When you buy these items in pallet form at the auction sites they pretty much always come with the NSN information on the way bill.

This information helps tremendously when bidding for the scrap value.


Steve


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## goldsilverpro

Incredible.

I found the gold weight but not the thickness. Is the gold weight for only one pin. It sure seems low for the assembly (.019 grains = $.026). I once had a partner that more than financed our fairly good sized refinery and plating shop from his several hundred drums (I'm thinking 200 drums) of gold Cannon plugs. They really ran good. Of course, they were old. We cracked them open, one at a time, with a Mini Monster shear, dumped out the male or female pins, and stripped them in cyanide. Took about a month for 2 people. Gold was only about $150 back then.

Can you trust government numbers? It's been my experience that the military are not too swift when it comes to PM scrap values and how to handle it. I read the other day that they only make $8 million per year on their PM scrap program. About 99% of it must be walking away.


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## lazersteve

GSP,

You're right the thickness isn't on this listing! :shock: Oh well, as long as you have the weight of the gold the thickness is irrelavent. I've seen it on some and not others. I agree the value must be for a single contact. I've got a nice pile of these and many other types. They are a lot of work to pluck, the shear sounds like a good way to split them open.

I discovered this information while researching some milspec part numbers I pulled off some scrap I had laying around.

Steve


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## mike.fortin

Lazersteve--that sure is intersting. I tryed the math. I got 49c gold value for 19 pins at todays $666 gold pirce. Did I do it right? Thanks. Mike.


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## goldsilverpro

Right on. I actually got 50 cents. There are 480 grains in a troy ounce.

.019 divided by 480 X 666 X 19


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## mike.fortin

GSP--thanks! You sure did it easyer than me. I never was quik at math in school. Thanks for simple exampls. Mike.


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## lazersteve

Ok, so here's what I get from this quick test:

The total weight of the cannon plug and 19 pins is :






19 Grams.

Each plug yields :






7 grams of pins.

So to get 1 pound of pins you need :

454 / 7 = 64.85 cannon plugs or rounded to 65 cannon plugs.

From all this the gold yield of the pound of the pins would be :

0.019 x 19 x 65 = 23.45 grains of gold per pound of pins from 65 complete plugs weighing

65 x 19 = 1235 grams = 1235 / 454 =~ 2 3/4 pounds of plugs.

And finally the value of the gold:

$0.50 x 65 plugs = $32.50 gold value per pound of pins .


Cool!

Steve


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## goldsilverpro

You did great, Mike. You got the right answer. This PM math can get confusing. There are always several different ways to work things and none of them are the "right" way. On important deals, I work the math in 3 or 4 totally different ways, just to check myself.


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## tutorus

Hello People, I believe that am at the right place. I've tried to learn this trade the hard way and lost a lot of money, not to mention burned my feet and fingers. I'm excited to be here. I won't bother you guys with silly questions. I'm going to read and read and read , and eventually will come up with a question.
Sincerely,
Tutorus


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## aflacglobal

Welcome to the forum. :wink:


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## Scott2357

LazerSteve,

I have acquired ~17lbs of those cannon plugs connectors but without the metal collar. Mine have basically two sizes 32 & 65 pin versions. The plastic shell holding the pins is very hard. What is the best/easiest way to remove the pins?

Thanks


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## lazersteve

For the larger plugs a heavy pair of cutters used to grip the pin and pry it out is the only way I've been able to do it. Most of the cannon plug housings are cadmium so try to avoid using power cutting tools on them unless you wear the proper safety gear (breather). You will still have to contend with the neoprene type grommet that holds the pins in place, it's really tough stuff.

Steve


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## Scott2357

Thanks Steve. Mine only have the grommet. First I'm counting pins and trying to calculate how much gold I have to work with then I'll remove them. I'm going to document this process well for future reference.


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## Scott2357

Well, I've loosely calculated that I have about $876 worth of gold on those cannon plug pins. However, I'm still having trouble getting them out of the neoprene grommet in a timely manor. The pins have a groove in them and the grommet is molded around the pin. My next attempt will be a metal template with holes drilled to match the plug pattern. Maybe I can drive them out the other side with a small hollow tipped tool. Anyone have any suggestions?


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## Palladium

How about a metal template with a press. Get them all at once by pressing them out ???? Just guessing here.


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## Strangebrew

I've been a member for a spell, but lurking and reading. On this, however, I had to chime in.

I have wrestled with similar plugs, mil-spec Burndy's to be exact. Tried the old pulling one pin at a time method and burned up a lot of time and muscle mass.

One day, I decided to take a couple outside and try a mild touch of flame from a regular propane torch. Jackpot! The grommet ignited and burned somewhat poorly, but I blew out the flame, let the partially burnt grommet cool, gave it a poke and it fell apart. A light puff of breath across the cinders and ashes and there sat the pins.

So, as Harold has said so many times: "Incineration". But partial is all that was needed for me.

I still have ca 20 lbs. or more of these in the basement to be done. Hope that helps.


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## Strangebrew

Still getting the hang of things...had to shrink this picture. These are pins from Burndy connectors pulled one at a time. Lot of pain in that 154 grams of yet to be refined metal!

Best to all,
Jeff


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## jhize

Hey all,

I've decided to build a calculator of sorts to help everyone (including me) "to see" what yields and costs should be, based soley on gold content. I borrowed from Catfish with the formula but changed the measuring units from square inches to square millimeters (because they are easier to measure with, more acurate, and used by electronic designers).

You will only need to enter information in the white cells, all colored cells have formulas. You will need a standard ruler with mm and cm markings, enter the mm as a whole number where appropriate ( 5 mm will be 5). You will need a digital scale that has grains as a measuring unit ( I got mine for $13), this is for measuring the weight of a sample trimmed finger. The calculations will show you what percent of the trimmed finger is gold, projected yield, value, and bulk projections.

I have also added a section that compares the weight of the substrate that holds the gold to the gold itself. This should help (especially the newbie) it discriminating between ebay auctions (ie a pound of cards is significantly different from a pound of trimmed fingers).

Anyway, if anyone sees any errors please let me know and I'll fix them. I will be doing a similiar spreadsheet for headers and pins using the surface area formula for a cylinder (minus the bottom surface).

Let me know what you think.


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## goldsilverpro

To finance one of my refineries, we worked about 100 to 200 drums of Cannon plugs that my partner had accumulated. We popped them open with a small, v shaped, powerful shear. It was called a Mini-monster. It was so controllable, you could crack an egg with it. We simply cracked open the metal shell with the shear and the pins fell out.


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## Anonymous

hey there, i watch your videos on youtube. very informative for a newbie. thanks


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## warrendya

Scott2357 said:


> Well, I've loosely calculated that I have about $876 worth of gold on those cannon plug pins. However, I'm still having trouble getting them out of the neoprene grommet in a timely manor. The pins have a groove in them and the grommet is molded around the pin. My next attempt will be a metal template with holes drilled to match the plug pattern. Maybe I can drive them out the other side with a small hollow tipped tool. Anyone have any suggestions?



What you need is the pin insertion/removal tool that is used to assemble the connectors. I googled "cannon connector tool" and got a number of hits, what you're looking for looks like this: http://stores.channeladvisor.com/daleproaudio/items/item.aspx?itemid=2190217

They are specific to pin size. Another option is to locate one of the temporary plastic ones that are sometimes sold in the bag when you buy the pins. Places that assemble connectors throw those out by the dozen.

The tool is just a hollow shaft that you slide over the pin to compress the locking feature.


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## Scott2357

Thanks for helping look for a solution but I'm sorry to say that while that is a cannon brand pin extractor, it's not for use on cannon plugs. I've used one of those before. We used to call them "pin pushers". It's mainly for Molex type pins that have the little ears that snap open on the other side to lock it into the connector shell. The cannon plug pins have grooves in the body of the pin and the grommet is molded into and around the pin grooves. It's an extremely durable design and really hard to remove the pins even with a lot of brute force.

BTW- Partial incineration, as suggested, worked pretty good and was best method I've found, but was still a lot of time and effort. Pins also came out contaminated with oily carbon from the smoke.


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## warrendya

Scott2357 said:


> Thanks for helping look for a solution but I'm sorry to say that while that is a cannon brand pin extractor, it's not for use on cannon plugs. I've used one of those before. We used to call them "pin pushers". It's mainly for Molex type pins that have the little ears that snap open on the other side to lock it into the connector shell. The cannon plug pins have grooves in the body of the pin and the grommet is molded into and around the pin grooves. It's an extremely durable design and really hard to remove the pins even with a lot of brute force.



Hmmm, that's what I get for trusting memory. I've used the molex tools in the last few years for projects around the house but the Cannon tools I remember from 20 years ago were much smaller diameter to fit the Cannon pins. I remember using the plastic temporary tools that came with the pins to remove inserted pins, there was a real trick to it I never quite learned. The techs wouldn't let me use their real tools until I could master the plastic one. It's the same principle though, isn't it - instead of the molex style ears the cannon tool pushes the rubber out of the grooves I thought. Oh well, incineration makes a moot point of it I'll agree.


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## Scott2357

I'm not entirely sure my grommets were the same as Steve's. Mine are very hard, more like Bakelite but tougher. Neoprene I thought was soft?


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## Palladium

8) 8) 8)


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## ck

deleted


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## aflacglobal

8)


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## shaftsinkerawc

Another resurface of an old post. The military connectors I am pulling apart have a 2 piece hard blue holder that the pins go through, one piece from each end of the pins that have a large center to keep them from being pulled from either side without seperating the plastic (Amphenol) pieces. My pins are silver/white as well as the wires. Not sure what year they are from but believe they are from a couple of Generators. Both connectors had internal snap rings and one had a hidden screw apart section. Has anyone pulled any of these apart? I tried to look up the mil spec info but couldn't access. One number I found was ms3102a32-8p Thanks, Everone have a Merry CHRISTmas and a Happy New Year


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## goldsilverpro

I've seen a lot of silver plated cannon plug pins.


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## lazersteve

Here's your NSN number:

5935-00-283-3420 

and you can find all the data for it including plating information here:

NSN Info Search

Steve


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## Findm-Keepm

shaftsinkerawc said:


> I tried to look up the mil spec info but couldn't access. One number I found was ms3102a32-8p Thanks, Everone have a Merry CHRISTmas and a Happy New Year



From WebFLIS (http://www.dlis.dla.mil/webflis/pub/pub_search.aspx) :

5935-00-283-3420:

*TERMINAL LOCATION* BACK SINGLE MATING END ALL CONTACT GROUPINGS
*CONTACT SURFACE TREATMENT* GOLD SINGLE MATING END ALL CONTACT GROUPINGS AND SILVER
*TERMINAL TYPE *SOLDER WELL SINGLE MATING END ALL CONTACT GROUPINGS
*SHELL MATERIAL * ALUMINUM ALLOY
*SHELL SURFACE TREATMENT* CADMIUM
*SHELL SURFACE TREATMENT* QQ-P-416,TY 2,CL 3 FED SPEC
DOCUMENT AND CLASSIFICATION SINGLE TREATMENT RESPONSE
*INCLUDED CONTACT QUANTITY* 6 SINGLE MATING END 1ST
CONTACT GROUPING
*INCLUDED CONTACT QUANTITY * 24 SINGLE MATING END 2ND
CONTACT GROUPING
*INCLUDED CONTACT TYPE* ROUND PIN SINGLE MATING END ALL CONTACT GROUPINGS
*PRECIOUS MATERIAL AND LOCATION* CONTACT SURFACES GOLD AND CONTACT SURFACES SILVER
*PRECIOUS MATERIAL AND WEIGHT* 0.054 GOLD GRAINS, TROY AND
0.054 SILVER GRAINS, TROY
*PRECIOUS MATERIAL* GOLD AND SILVER
*TEST DATA DOCUMENT * 81349-MIL-C-5015 SPECIFICATION
*THREAD SERIES DESIGNATOR* UNS
*SPECIFICATION/STANDARD DATA* 81349-MIL-C-5015 GOVERNMENT SPECIFICATION

Even some commercial connectors can be identified through WebFLIS, thanks to the Govt's Commercial Off-the-Shelf (COTS) program.

Cheers and Merry Christmas, Brian


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## shaftsinkerawc

thanks Guys. Am I reading it right that the pins are only surface coated Au or Ag.
When I clipped one in half it appeared consistent throughout.


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## Barren Realms 007

shaftsinkerawc said:


> thanks Guys. Am I reading it right that the pins are only surface coated Au or Ag.
> When I clipped one in half it appeared consistent throughout.



That is because when you cut the pin the gold layer will thin out(spread) and cover the cut area and make it look like solid gold.


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## shaftsinkerawc

Mine are Ag colored. I'll try and file one and see if it is Cu underneath but it cut very smooth and easy. (Shaved off half through and only get Ag color?) Another concern is the fine braided Ag wire, is it supposed to be Ag coated Cu as well?


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## Barren Realms 007

Don't know without a picture. You can put some of it in HCL and some in nitric and see what kind of reaction you get.


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## goldsilverpro

Solid silver or gold anything is rare in electronics. It is most usually plated. Always lean towards plated unless you can prove otherwise. If plated gold or silver will suffice, it will never be solid. There has to be an overwhelming technical reason to make something from solid gold or silver. It is rarely done.


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## ck

deleted


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## shaftsinkerawc

I'll have to take my computer and camera to a nephew, I can't seem to make them work together. 
No reaction to cold concentrated Hydrocloric
Immediate reaction to cold 50% Nitric, light blue color
Thanks


----------



## goldsilverpro

ck said:


> I have heard of people pulling solid 16k gold heat sinks out of military amplifiers that weighed at least an ounce.



Have YOU ever done it?

I'm not saying these things don't exist, just that they're extremely rare. I would rather think the worst and occasionally be pleasantly surprised than think the best and be frequently disappointed.


----------



## Harold_V

ck said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Solid silver or gold anything is rare in electronics. It is most usually plated. Always lean towards plated unless you can prove otherwise. If plated gold or silver will suffice, it will never be solid. There has to be an overwhelming technical reason to make something from solid gold or silver. It is rarely done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard of people pulling solid 16k gold heat sinks out of military amplifiers that weighed at least an ounce.
Click to expand...

What you have heard and reality may not be one and the same. There is little reason to use gold in such an application when silver would be better (and it is), but you don't find silver, either. Aluminum or copper are excellent heat sinks, and are most likely to be encountered. 

Harold


----------



## ck

well.. I happen to know for 100% fact that it is true.. but whatever.. i'll just go back to lurking and not interact... 
I have a low tolerance for this kind of behaviour from people.


----------



## goldsilverpro

ck said:


> well.. I happen to know for 100% fact that it is true.. but whatever.. i'll just go back to lurking and not interact...
> I have a low tolerance for this kind of behaviour from people.



I've reread the 2 posts written by Harold and myself and I can't find any trace of ill behavior in either of them. 

I can't speak for Harold, but I have grave doubts that an oz of 16K gold was used as a heat sink in any circuit, ever. I have seen many yellow dyed, anodized Al heat sinks that looked very much like gold. There are several instances on the forum where people have been fooled by them. Although very rare, I have also seen a few gold plated Al heat sinks. Also, although dependent on the alloying ingredients, I would guess that the thermal conductivity of 16K gold would be poor as compared with copper, silver, or even pure gold or aluminum. Any one of these would probably make a better heat sink than 16K gold.


----------



## patnor1011

ck said:


> well.. I happen to know for 100% fact that it is true.. but whatever.. i'll just go back to lurking and not interact...
> I have a low tolerance for this kind of behaviour from people.



This little bit contradicts your earlier - now deleted statement:



ck said:


> I have heard of people pulling solid 16k gold heat sinks out of military amplifiers that weighed at least an ounce.



We all heard stories surrounding gold... 
If you had desire to delete all your posts you shouldn't have to type them at first place. 
Going in to effort to delete all your 29 posts is just funny statement how you present yourself.


----------



## Harold_V

ck said:


> well.. I happen to know for 100% fact that it is true.. but whatever.. i'll just go back to lurking and not interact...
> I have a low tolerance for this kind of behaviour from people.


I resent your accusation that my behavior is not acceptable. May I suggest to you that you give careful thought before making such claims? I have a low tolerance for those that insist they are right when they have no evidence to support their claim, particularly when they make no sense. You make it worse by picking up your marbles and storming off with an attitude. 


Harold


----------



## Oz

I will go a step further. If someone goes to the length to remove information they have previously posted, it tells me one of 2 things. Either they are not willing to be held accountable to their own words because they can not substantiate it, usually because it was hearsay or 3rd hand knowledge. Or secondly, in being questioned politely why they think as they do, they feel insulted as to the expertise they feel they posses. If someone feels they are the final authority on something but are not open to polite questions as to why, they are typically not worth listening to. There is the 3rd type that will edit a post after you have replied to them in order to make you the fool. 

None of the above are worth listening to. Someone of knowledge is typically open to polite questions as well as having an open mind as to possible correction to what they had believed was fact.


----------



## ck

Oz said:


> I will go a step further. If someone goes to the length to remove information they have previously posted, it tells me one of 2 things. Either they are not willing to be held accountable to their own words because they can not substantiate it, usually because it was hearsay or 3rd hand knowledge. Or secondly, in being questioned politely why they think as they do, they feel insulted as to the expertise they feel they posses. If someone feels they are the final authority on something but are not open to polite questions as to why, they are typically not worth listening to. There is the 3rd type that will edit a post after you have replied to them in order to make you the fool.
> 
> None of the above are worth listening to. Someone of knowledge is typically open to polite questions as well as having an open mind as to possible correction to what they had believed was fact.



A polite question would not have consisted of stating it was not true... it would have instead have consisted of questions regarding the source of the material. but whatever... this will be my last post... any info i have now I am reluctant to share due to the ignorance which consequentially leads me to believe that the persons responding in such manner are untrustworthy and not worth my time. I should have known better than to post on a forum with americans... as they 99% of the time are ignorant and self centered.


----------



## joem

> "I should have known better than to post on a forum with americans... as they 99% of the time are ignorant and self centered."



Not related to refinining but I do not take this point of view


----------



## goldsilverpro

Bye!


----------



## nickvc

Ck you really aren't doing anyone any favours here with this attitude, yourself in particular.
The members on the forum tend to be alert to information that can encourage over high hopes on the recovery of values from most forms of scrap, but if this information you have posted is correct we are all ears to hear from where it came. Many of the members and all of the moderators have dealt in scrap from various sources for years and have treated virtually every type available but even now we do find the odd product that's made of a precious metal that's new to all of us despite our initial scepticism and we all have to eat crow.
Please post whatever information you have and pictures so all the members can be aware of what exactly to lookout for.
Ps. I'm not American but still felt insulted by the slurs aimed at some of our senior members.


----------



## glondor

I recommended you post your item like this. I was convinced this item was real honest to goodness gold. We ( the forum members) looked, discussed and finally tested. Looks like gold doesn't it. It is not . No one peed on any ones cornflakes. it was civil and fun. There was discovery and sharing of info. I think most were rooting for it to be real. By the way I am not American. I am Canadian, My wife however as well as my oldest son are from the U.S. none of us are ignorant. A bit lazy at times, but not ignorant.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=8241


----------



## joem

A bit lazy at times, but not ignorant

Not related to refining but I DO take this point of view about my kids
:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Ocean

Poor attitude. Will never learn with that approach. 

Victim is an appealing role to some.


----------



## Harold_V

goldsilverpro said:


> Bye!


Bye, indeed. I just banned this individual. 

He can take his dog and pony show elsewhere. I have no need to endure his insults. 

It's real easy to get banned on this forum. All that is required is to cop an attitude---or get started with insults. 

There is much to be gained by having manners on this forum. That comes as a shock to many, who are used to having their say on the internet. That doesn't fly here, and it's not going to fly here. 

Harold


----------



## Bumpstick

This was an informative thread and then it went south. I think all you guys are great and put a lot of work into this forum.
I am a slow learner and have been in the collection mode for some time. Waiting for my son to graduate college on the GI bill.
A Gunny Sargent in the Marines. I was thinking he might have some leads as to where thy dispose of there scrap.
They just passed a new law here making it illegal to dispose of electronics in your trash; so dumpster diving for scrap is drying up. I will keep looking for new sources of scrap . This is a pick of a board out of a turbo actuator air valve. 
I plan to set up a small refining station in the garage with his help. I just don't feel confident working with the chemicals 
by my self. I plan on building a proper ventilation hood, work station and personal protective safety gear.


----------



## patnor1011

Bumpstick, no worries if you are not confident in working with chemicals. Believe me or not but bulk of money in recycling electronics comes from iron, copper, alluminium and plastics. Precious metals are just icing on that cake. You can cherry-pick easy items like gold fingers from memory sticks - gold recovery from them is not very complicated. Rest may come later.


----------



## dtectr

Bumpstick said:


> Waiting for my son to graduate college on the GI bill.
> A Gunny Sargent in the Marines. I was thinking he might have some leads as to where thy dispose of there scrap.
> *They just passed a new law here making it illegal to dispose of electronics in your trash*; so dumpster diving for scrap is drying up. I will keep looking for new sources of scrap . This is a pick of a board out of a turbo actuator air valve.
> I plan to set up a small refining station in the garage with his help. I just don't feel confident working with the chemicals
> by my self. I plan on building a proper ventilation hood, work station and personal protective safety gear.


this could actually be your ticket in - show a definite solution, i.e. responsible recycling & free pick-up. ALWAYS do what you say you'll do WHEN you say you will. If you can't process the steel cases, for example, supply these FREE to scrappers who have access to (a lot) of what you want - e-waste. Realistically, a lot of scrappers from these moronic city/states just find a hole that will take it. help them out with their problem - maybe they can help you with yours.

just my dos centavos.


----------



## MMFJ

I'm new to refining (been "Making Money From JUNK" for years, but typically tossed all the boards, computers, etc. - until I found this forum!).

Mostly we deal in complete equipment (lab/test/etc.) and never really thought about the scrap too much since we never had much quantity and any that we did have was given to the 'trash' guy as a bonus for taking out all the rest of, what we always thought, garbage. (we are now reevaluating just what we want to toss!)

In our last load (we do a lot of gov't auctions), we got about 15 pounds of gold plated pins (all NOS, some in bags, some in separator boxes, some still in the original vials [I think these must be pretty high quality...]). About 30 different types, with 50 - 1000 count. In researching, we found most to be obsolete (i.e., "old"), but some are still being sold.

The nice part is that even for those that are obsolete, there are still specs online for most of them so we can try to calculate the recoverable gold (using the calculations in this thread). For those that we don't have specs on, we'll use the "measure and calculate" method.

Which leads me to my question/issue. Even though I'm pretty strong in math and spreadsheets, this jumping back/forth from avoirdupois to metric to troy - just really kicks my brain out of whack!

I really could use some double-check on my calculations as it seems I've either got a pile of worthless(ish) pretty metal or a massive fortune! All the calculations really helped, but somewhere along the line, I think I may have missed something.

Here's two examples of some pins I have (kinda going between the two 'masters' ways of calculating and keeping it all in metric [much simpler to add up - please don't tell my Russian wife I admitted that!;]) until the end.

(I also attached this as a spreadsheet - may be easier to view)View attachment gold scrap calculator.xls

Part Number	201328	423036 
Title/Name (if known)	CONN SOCKET 20-24AWG GOLD CRIMP Series 140, 157-53 taper pin terminal 
Gold thickness (microns - um)	0.76	2.54 
other metals Brass, Nickel, “hard Gold” 
where found	http://www.te.com/catalog/pn/en/201328-1 http://www.macpanel.com/DataSheets/35.pdf 
status (selling?)	selling	likely obsolete – found only on ref site 
selling price	4.96	0 
Length	20.2	18 
Diameter	2.72	2.5 
Radius	1.36	1.25 
likely accurate? (%)	97	99 
estimated gold area (cm3)	178.71	149.68	confidence level of measurements (calculated 'round down')	
gold weight (1)	0.00262126	0.00733748	2 × pi × r2   +  2 × pi × r × h ((2*PI()*(C11^2))+(2*PI()*C11*C9))*C12/100
Weight (1)(g)	0.44	0.6	cm3*19.3*microns	C13*19.3*(C4*0.000001*0.01)
weight (stock)	427.6	834 
Count (est.)	971.82	1390 
Retail Value (est.)	4820.22	0	SPOT =>>> 1596.88
Reclaim Value (est.)	130.8	523.69	SPOT/31.1	C16*C13*SPOT/31.1

From the above, what I'm seeing is that the retail value of these pins is very attractive (if I can find a buyer....) over the scrap value (not surprising), however, I wonder if I've done all the calculations right on the Reclaim.

If so, then I seriously wonder about the value of attempting to recover the gold from the one pack (taking into consideration there is a huge learning curve for me and working with anything that includes the word "acid" is not on my list of 'fun').

I guess there are other questions as well here if the calculations look right;
- what is the (approx.) "hard cost" (actual dollar value of discarded materials) to recover these lots (presuming they were equal count of 1000 pins in each)
- what would they be worth to a hobbist (like someone on this board)
- would it be better to just stick them up on eBay or somewhere and sell them by the pound/ounce?
- are there recommended locations to send this off to just have someone else do it and send me back the gold (after a fair recovery cost to them, of course)?

I'm not worried about getting the absolute most out of the bundle, I just want a fair deal.

Until I came across this forum the other day, I was just going to melt them all down and expected there to be a pile of nice clean gold at the bottom (yeah, I even went to the expense to get the furnace, gloves/tongs, etc....). Now, I certainly see that is not the way to get much of anything from this type of scrap, but I really am not into the chemicals (I know my limits, and without a hands-on mentor showing me, I won't be going there!)

So, I leave my recovery 'fate' to this group of learned experts - what'cha think?

Steve


----------



## Harold_V

MMFJ said:


> Until I came across this forum the other day, I was just going to melt them all down and expected there to be a pile of nice clean gold at the bottom (yeah, I even went to the expense to get the furnace, gloves/tongs, etc....).


Your thoughts are not all that uncommon with those that have little or no experience. The harsh reality is, once alloyed, very few metals will stratify, at least to any meaningful degree. There are some exceptions, of course, such as iron that contains gold. It can be melted with silver, which will reclaim the vast majority of the gold, which stratifies when it solidifies. 

Sorry, not much help in making the decision for you on what to do with the spoils. Each must march to the music they hear. 

Harold


----------



## cjfeath

Again i took information from the forum and put into a spread sheet. This time from "CatFish" just fill in the Yellow highlighted information and will automatically figure out grams and the value.


----------



## Palladium

Welcome to the forum MMFJ.

I am very pleased to see that you first post is not the usual " Help me i messed up !!!" post. Seem you have done some homework. If you’re intrigued by gold recovery and would like to try it as a hobby then i would say try it out. But if you’re already making money from your current venture and see this as a side source for generating extra revenue, then i say sell them and focus on what makes your time most valuable. We have many members here who will do you right.


----------



## Palladium

cjfeath said:


> Again i took information from the forum and put into a spread sheet. This time from "CatFish" just fill in the Yellow highlighted information and will automatically figure out grams and the value.



Has anybody verified the 2 spread sheets he has made? The other one is for silver and nitric. Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to make these for the forum. We appreciate your contributions. "OohRah!"


----------



## MMFJ

cjfeath said:


> Again i took information from the forum and put into a spread sheet. This time from "CatFish" just fill in the Yellow highlighted information and will automatically figure out grams and the value.



While I appreciate your spreadsheet (after finally getting it downloaded - found out that Google Chrome browser was the problem...), the pieces I have are measured in mm (from spec sheets, etc.), not inches and that conversion for every piece is simpler to just create a mm/gram (i.e., Metric) spreadsheet. Also, yours allows only for a 'Total Grams' with 'Width' and 'Height', though, in my situation, I have thousands of small pins, which allows for a 'value of 1' and 'value of the lot', which I think many people would like to know. I've seen that question many times "What is the value of just one gold scrap finger from a computer board" - I know they are all different, though using the methods from this forum and entering it into a spreadsheet that allows for it, that figure could be calculated.

Not that I care to sell just one of the pins, and overall, it may be looking at it in the wrong direction, but it seems to me a nice thing to know.

At any rate, might I suggest a minor change to your spreadsheet to add in some clarifying comments for us newbies? Instead of having to sort through all the other posts (as valuable as they are), it would be nice to have some indicators in the tool itself.

I'm still working out the way to figure just how much I have in my 'pile'. I really want an idea of overall value before working with anyone to refine it for me, or even trying to do it myself (which I am pretty sure won't be happening anytime soon).


----------



## cjfeath

That is no problem Palladium. MMJF I will work on that for you. These sheets do not take me anytime at all. 

And all run the spread sheets through hell. I made them for me to use and share. I want them to be right. Just let me know if anything is wrong, anything that should be added. Hell tell me they suck i do not care, I want quality sheets to help me and I value your opinions. 

Carl


----------



## cjfeath

Has anyone found anything i may need to change on either spreadsheet? I plan on working on it tomarrow


----------



## tklimson

Excellent work here Gents. Very informative and is something I believe we all were looking for. You can't be successful without first completely understanding your product.


----------



## joem

I like it.
But can you save it down to earlier versions of excel so some propertis are not lost?


----------



## fogcity

cjfeath said:


> Has anyone found anything i may need to change on either spreadsheet? I plan on working on it tomarrow



Catfish --

I'm new to the forum, still reading hoke's book and such, but I noticed what I believe to be a small typo on your Gold Estimating spreadsheet. You used the value 16.367064 as the number of cubic centimeters in a cubic inch when calculating the number of grams of gold in your electronic scrap table, and I believe you intended to use 16.387064...

fogcity


----------



## Harold_V

fogcity said:


> Catfish --
> 
> I'm new to the forum, still reading hoke's book and such, but I noticed what I believe to be a small typo on your Gold Estimating spreadsheet.


Catfish has been absent from the forum for over a year. Don't be surprised if you don't receive an acknowledgment. 
Welcome to the forum.

Harold


----------



## jimdoc

I think his response was to cjfeath's question. He just got the names mixed up.

Jim


----------



## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> I think his response was to cjfeath's question. He just got the names mixed up.
> 
> Jim


Heh! Looks like he left right after posting. Hasn't been back on the board since late September. 

Harold


----------



## sumorada

Hello,
I'm a goldsmith of 36+ years, I know how to do a lot of things with gold and other precious metals, recovery and refining is not one them so any help would be appreciated.

I have about 25 troy ounces of "gold plated contacts" that appear to be high karat.....see pics.....I bought them a couple years ago in the form that you see them, I would like to try and recover the gold from them myself, a year or so before buying the scrap I purchased a Shor Refining System on a whim now I have decided to see if this will work with what I have or for suggestions on how to go about it, again any help would be appreciated..thanks

The pieces in the photos are about 1.80 mm length and .60 mm in width.


----------



## jimdoc

Forget the Shor Refining System, just study the forum some and you will learn how to process them. Most important is safety, make sure you know what you are doing before you do it.
They may be good to use a sulfuric cell to strip.

Jim


----------



## qst42know

Have you identified the metal under the gold surface?


----------



## sumorada

_Have you identified the metal under the gold surface?_

Yes it is copper....


----------



## qst42know

You don't need the Shor system. The stripping cell will take the gold off the copper. Nitric will dissolve the copper leaving the gold foils behind for further refining. AP or hydrochloric acid/ peroxide may work as well to remove the copper but a bit slower. Do some reading on the forum a few processes will suit your circumstances.


----------



## goldsilverpro

To me, the pieces in the photo look like the tips of pins that were cut off - maybe only the tips were plated. If so, they should run about the same, per pound, as fully plated pins. I would guess around $90-$100/pound, more or less. You have about 1.7 pounds.

With the Shor system, I would worry about the small amount of gold getting lost in the shuffle. I would use either HCl/H2O2 (AP) or nitric to first dissolve the copper - if nitric is used, it will take about .83 gallons. Then dissolve the gold residue in HCl/bleach or aqua regia.


----------



## sumorada

Hello,
I have been doing a lot of reading, it's gonna take me a while to absorb all of this......
From what I have read so far it seems I wasted my $$ a couple years ago when I bought the Shor system....live and learn.


----------



## AndyWilliams

Hi all, I'm relatively new to refining and mostly took it up because I needed a hobby. I have been in a collecting stage for a few months and have a decent amount of cpu's, gold-fingered cards, and karated jewelry. I've been through youtube numerous times, coming across this site on one of the videos. You guys should be commended for taking much of the mystery out of the refining process. The amount of info here could keep me busy for another couple of months. One question I have right off the bat is pretty basic, and just deals with sourcing nitric acid. I did notice that there were a few methods of dissolving gold without AR and would be willing to try those methods, but it seems that AR is, for lack of a better term, the "gold standard" in refining. Does it really make a difference, or would I be equally served to use the HCL-CL method? Oh and before I go too far, I'm colorblind which makes this entire process a bit more difficult!


----------



## Harold_V

I refined for years (commercially), using none of the work-around methods that are promoted on this forum. It goes without saying, if you can procure commercially prepared acids, your task will be much easier. However, that isn't always possible, in particular where nitric acid is concerned. Many have turned to making their own, while others readily pay upwards of $60/gallon. It's a rip-off, but one in which you will have little control unless you are a licensed business and can justify the purchase in volume. Precious few meet that criterion.

My advice to you is to study the methods promoted here, and to use those that will be within reach. They all work, it's just a matter of degree, and how you approach refining. For example, some consider evaporating a nuisance, while others evaporate routinely. A great deal depends on what becomes your normal routine. 

My personal choice was to follow Hoke's teachings. She never lead me astray, although I was quick to abandon her recommendation to toss gasoline on materials that were being incinerated. 

Harold


----------



## AndyWilliams

Harold_V said:


> My personal choice was to follow Hoke's teachings. She never lead me astray, although I was quick to abandon her recommendation to toss gasoline on materials that were being incinerated.
> 
> Harold



Lol! Thanks for the advice. I have a local supplier that sells nitric in volumes as low as a liter, but have not been able to get a call back. It must be as you said concerning a licensed business. I'll have to look for Hoke's teachings, I did already bookmark several of the handbooks referenced. Thanks again Harold, appreciate the input.

Andy


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Andy, Welcome to the forum!

I strongly encourage all new members to follow the Guided Tour created by LazerSteve. It will provide an introduction to the forum and numerous valuable links. Be sure to follow the link to his web site as he has many outstanding videos, a collection of great reference documents, and he sells a lot of the supplies needed to get started including detailed instructional DVDs.

You can download C.M. Hoke's book Refining Precious Metal Wastes here. You'll see this book mentioned repeatedly here on the forum for good reason. It is probably the best book ever written for the beginner who wants to learn refining. It is written in layman's terms and will provide a solid foundation that will help you understand everything you read here on the forum.

Finally, and I can't stess this enough, read EVERYTHING in the Safety section of the forum. No amount of precious metal is worth jeopardizing your health or the health of those around you.

Once you understand the basics you can start to try some small scale experiments. If there's something you don't understand or you get stuck, there will be someone here to help you.

Best of luck,
Dave


----------



## AndyWilliams

Thanks Dave, I appreciate the help. There's so much that I want to do right away, I feel ADHD, but I will take the advice both you and Harold have offered. I'll start with Hoke's book and then hit the guided tour. Thanks for being available, and thanks for the links, that is doubly appreciated!

Andy


----------



## Joe78

hi, new here, hoping someone could give me a little info. I got a few boards like the one pictured out of a very old military type audio scrambler. I personally have never seen circuitry like this, mostly just seen printed boards. I've scraped away at the gold fairly deep, is it possible that this is not plating but solid gold alloy circuitry? Can't find any info on google about pre-1950's boards. Thanks for any info!


----------



## schomisch

Have you tested for gold? I have one that looks just like your first picture and its silver. From your picture the coloring is slightly different, so I'm not saying its not gold, It's just good to check and know for sure =))

~Chris!~

ps. Nice find


----------



## Mechanic688

Hello, long time lurker and reader, first time poster. I just wanted to add to check the transistors on those boards for gold plated legs.
I have a couple of oz's of different style of transistors manufactured with gold plated legs and some with gold bodies. 
Seem to be common in the 60-70's circuit boards, even the brown TV/stereo boards.

Sorry for the blurry pic's but at least you get the idea.


----------



## scrappile

on a bendix connector with gold plated pins, 26 pins and listed in NSN report PRECIOUS MATERIAL AND WEIGHT 0.026 GOLD GRAINS, TROY AND 0.026 SILVER GRAINS, TROY




would the 0.026 grains be each pin or total for connector, don't have pin info , just wondering if this is enough info , without the Length and Diameter plus how much area .026 might cover ,



http://www.dlis.dla.mil/webflis/pub/pub_search.aspx?niin=5935009897064&newpage=1

NSN report


----------



## lazersteve

I refer you to the first page of this thread:

NSN Look-up for Gold Content

Steve


----------



## joem

Hey Mechanic
I like your profile pic of the Russian Blue.
I had the same type of cat when I was a teen.
Best cat ever, I named him Carwash and his favorite food was pancakes and syrup.


----------



## lazersteve

Joe,

We had one named Sadie, my wife loved her immensely.

She met a terrible death several years back at the jaws of two of my dogs after they broke into the house. 

A very bad day for me and the wife! The misses cried for two weeks nearly every minute until the day I brought home a new cat. She hasn't shed a tear over Sadie since.

Steve


----------



## vjeran

Hi Steve
Many thanks for the DVD i Bought,,much info that i needed,,
I would like to know if anyone in this forum knows how many ppm in preciuos metal content there is in eg,,1 tonne of mother boards, cpu chips , memory ram,,etc,,
I know it depends on year they were made, country, brand, use, refining process and trustworthy REFINER
Cheers


----------



## Palladium

Boy this thread goes way back and was started by Tom. I sure miss that cat fish.


----------



## badran106

goldsilverpro said:


> ck said:
> 
> 
> 
> well.. I happen to know for 100% fact that it is true.. but whatever.. i'll just go back to lurking and not interact...
> I have a low tolerance for this kind of behaviour from people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've reread the 2 posts written by Harold and myself and I can't find any trace of ill behavior in either of them.
> 
> I can't speak for Harold, but I have grave doubts that an oz of 16K gold was used as a heat sink in any circuit, ever. I have seen many yellow dyed, anodized Al heat sinks that looked very much like gold. There are several instances on the forum where people have been fooled by them. Although very rare, I have also seen a few gold plated Al heat sinks. Also, although dependent on the alloying ingredients, I would guess that the thermal conductivity of 16K gold would be poor as compared with copper, silver, or even pure gold or aluminum. Any one of these would probably make a better heat sink than 16K gold.
Click to expand...



i am from lebanon new in this but in 1984 i was told that the man that fix electronics for the militery group i was with was happy to fix uk made i think it was racal transrecever and exchange solid gold tuner for gold plated ...i was told that they made it to stand a lot of rain so that the army can link in all weather.


----------



## still learning

ok? this may be a dumb question and or it might've been answered some where else, i dont know at this point in time. to the gentleman and or lady who was posting the memory stick( gold value). wat type of stick were u testing out. and wat was the speed of the sticks as well. cuase i've read eles where that those chip might contain silver an or gold as well. have u thought about the percentage in those chips as well.


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## jocelynholmes192

This is really an informative post but the chemicals used are very dangerous and should not be performed without proper knowledge and equipment.


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## user 12009

jocelynholmes192 said:


> This is really an informative post but the chemicals used are very dangerous and should not be performed without proper knowledge and equipment.


Jocelyn, 95% of our member are well aware of that. Some have even written the book on chemical safety. That is why I do not recycle at that level (I live in an apartment) I am a middleman. I track down old electronics and sell to the melters. The worst toxic fumes I have to put up with are 500 cellphones sitting in my car on a hot day. :lol: (just imagine these phones old and someone talked and spit into the phone for years and then multiply that by 500 and multiply that by 100* heat. it was worse last month, I had 1500 phones)


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## rawtuff

Hi all,

i came in possession of high volume of card adapters (about 70k, total weight of metallic parts is around 21 kg ) , they are all the same brand and model, here is a pic:




I need to estimate the gold percentage in a unit in order to decide what to do with them.

I've tried XRF analysis in a dedicated lab which gave an unreasonably high result - 8% gold. I only later realized that XRF is probably not the best methodology for this kind of estimation since it probably only analyses the surface and not through the whole sample.
I then tried to melt several units for additional XRF testing, but the melted material doesn't look homogeneous enough - turned black on one side and yellow-red on the other with clearly visible strings of different melted metals.

Can anyone advise a better method to go with this? Maybe a different type of spectral analysis that is fit for plated material or something else?

Thanks!


----------



## goldsilverpro

Fire assay is the only way I would even think about doing it. I like fire assay mainly because all the final gold (which is pure) ends up as a solid that you could hold in your hand if you wanted to. In other words, it's real gold and not just a number. When you weigh this gold, you know absolutely that this weight is not too high. There are other gravimetric methods one could use but fire assay has been the accepted standard in the industry for centuries. A fire assay from a decent lab, preferably in triplicate, will probably cost at least $100.

XRF is worthless for the value of plated gold, with no exceptions. You would think a lab would understand this.

You could probably get a ball park idea of the value of the fingers (large plane areas at the top in the photo) by measuring them fairly accurately (I prefer digital calipers), and then calculating the area from the measurements, in square inches, that is covered with gold, and then doing a calculation. These are inserted many times during their lifespan, so I would guess the gold thickness would be about 30 millions of an inch (same as pins or circuit board fingers) and I have already put that as the 1st term in the equation below. Just plug in the number of square inches and the spot daily gold price into this equation and that will give you the $ value per unit. The .000030" is 30 millionths of an inch written as inches. The 10.18 is just a factor that is always the same. Actually, for math people, it's the number of troy ounces of gold in one cubic inch.

.000030" X 10.18 X number of square inches X gold spot price per troy ounce

I just measured the exposed gold on the card in my camera, which looks identical to your photo and came up with about 0.11 sq.in. The gold price at this moment is $1310

Therefore: .000030 X 10.18 X.11 X 1310 = $.043 or 4.3 cents per unit. Note: this is a guess, but an educated one (hopefully). Also note that this is the amount of gold you would probably get if you kept the cards as is, without grinding them up, and stripped the exposed gold off with some chemical.

If the pins at the bottom are precious metals (points? plating?), that could add to the value, but probably not much. Also, I didn't take into consideration the gold plating on the fingers that is covered with the plastic, since I didn't want to destroy my own card. I would break off all the plastic on the card on the left of the photo and measure all of the gold plating.

Another note: In general, especially when you're doing an evaluation for the buying of scrap, you can be a little on the low side but you never want to be on the high side. A low evaluation wouldn't hurt you unless you lost the deal. A high evaluation, though, could cost you a lot of money if you paid too much for it. 

All in all, you would be best off with a fire assay.


----------



## rawtuff

Thank you, appreciate your advise!


----------



## goldsilverpro

rawtuff said:


> Thank you, appreciate your advise!



You might re-read my post. I added some things.


----------



## rawtuff

> You might re-read my post. I added some things.



Wow, thank you very much for the detailed info!

I've read the first page of this thread prior to posting my query and took note of the measurement method you used above, but was absolutely unsure about what thickness to assign to the plating of this particular material.

Now, these are branded adapters (sandisk) and old stock (circa 2007) and I was wondering about the thickness, but 30 micro inches is probably about right and I'll use that as a ballpark, but to be sure will have to look for fire assay company.

One interesting thing is the XRF testing came up with nearly the same percentage of Au for both sides of the fingers at the top - the contacting area and the flip side (double side plated). The pins at the bottom look plated as well, though probably thinner than the upper pins. The area covered with plastic has plating as well, if I'm going to extract the gold myself (which is starting to seem more and more probable, though it wasn't my intention initially) I wonder if I could burn out that plastic because manually removing it for every single unit will be quite tedious - i'ts pretty tight, like capsuled there.

P.S. I've found a local company which does fire assay and will contact them.


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## aggemologist

Dear folks, I am new in this forum. but really very nice information shared in this forum. 

with regards

HUK


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## ettran

hi , what is the diferance from gold plated from gold filled. ed


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## butcher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_plating

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold-filled_jewelry


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## Grelko

goldsilverpro said:


> The 10.18 is just a factor that is always the same. Actually, for math people, it's the number of troy ounces of gold in one cubic inch.



Is this accurate? I've seen 10.16 and 10.18 depending on where I look.

Edit - I've seen 10.17 and 10.13 also


----------



## goldsilverpro

Grelko,

If you look up the specific gravity in a variety of sources. you'll find a variety of different numbers. To get 10.18, I used 19.32 for the S.G. I also used 2.543 as the number of cm3 in a in3 and 31.1 as the number of grams in a troy oz. Whatever, 10.18 is close enough. Considering significant figures, I probably should have rounded it off to 10.2 to be more correct.


----------



## Grelko

goldsilverpro said:


> Grelko,
> 
> If you look up the specific gravity in a variety of sources. you'll find a variety of different numbers. To get 10.18, I used 19.32 for the S.G. I also used 2.543 as the number of cm3 in a in3 and 31.1 as the number of grams in a troy oz. Whatever, 10.18 is close enough. Considering significant figures, I probably should have rounded it off to 10.2 to be more correct.



That works, thank you. I was wondering which math you used. I've seen the 19.32 as 19.3 etc.

So much easier than using 31.1034768. Doesn't really make that much of a difference unless you're in the 10s or 100s of pounds/kilos.


----------



## ChemGeek

Interesting thread but largerly theoretical one.
Much is said about assays etc to determine value of stock.
For small time guy it is of little relevance though.
Lets say I am buying motherboards or cell phone bords etc. In December last year I have sourced substantial quantity of very cheap motherboards ($0.3 each) and sold to scrap at ~$6/kg after a little cherrypicking (it seems that this particular scrap yard is not too mean about it, as long as it is done within reason - perhaps they have decided to suffer some nuisance in exchange of steady flow of slightly downgraded boards from different goldbugs. Then these are mixed with full value ones and resold as finest cut. Alternatively employees responsible of purchases are morons). So I have made a very nice fast buck.
However this low hanging fruit is gone and won't come back.
Now I have to buy over mail smaller lots (say 20kg or so), pay about 70-80% of scrap yard price, cherrypick a bit and resell the rest to scrap with hope that they wont downgrade and if so, then only a little bit.
Any assays of such small lots are plain waste of money as the assay would often cost more than purchased lot is worth. It is also impossible to run assay if you buy online/via mail (no, I do not buy on eBay due to an unreasonable pricing but there are other outlets as well).
Neither scrap yard runs any assays wile buying few hundred lbs lots.
So from where these assays stories are coming?
It seems that with e-scrap they may become relevant when refinery is buying few tons and more or if one is dealing with carat stock.
Now lets say, we have few tons of motherboards in a pile. How to take an representative sample out of such a mixed mess only gods of refining know and peoples who are actually doing it most likely don't.
So my question is:
Is there any smalltimer here dealing in e-scrap who usually relies on assays while buying 20-200kg lots or all what is done is a guesswork based on average content data, regardless, how inaccurate or contested these might be?


----------



## niks neims

ChemGeek said:


> Interesting thread but largerly theoretical one.
> Much is said about assays etc to determine value of stock.
> For small time guy it is of little relevance though.
> Lets say I am buying motherboards or cell phone bords etc. In December last year I have sourced substantial quantity of very cheap motherboards ($0.3 each) and sold to scrap at ~$6/kg after a little cherrypicking (it seems that this particular scrap yard is not too mean about it, as long as it is done within reason - perhaps they have decided to suffer some nuisance in exchange of steady flow of slightly downgraded boards from different goldbugs. Then these are mixed with full value ones and resold as finest cut. Alternatively employees responsible of purchases are morons). So I have made a very nice fast buck.
> However this low hanging fruit is gone and won't come back.
> Now I have to buy over mail smaller lots (say 20kg or so), pay about 70-80% of scrap yard price, cherrypick a bit and resell the rest to scrap with hope that they wont downgrade and if so, then only a little bit.
> Any assays of such small lots are plain waste of money as the assay would often cost more than purchased lot is worth. It is also impossible to run assay if you buy online/via mail (no, I do not buy on eBay due to an unreasonable pricing but there are other outlets as well).
> Neither scrap yard runs any assays wile buying few hundred lbs lots.
> So from where these assays stories are coming?
> It seems that with e-scrap they may become relevant when refinery is buying few tons and more or if one is dealing with carat stock.
> Now lets say, we have few tons of motherboards in a pile. How to take an representative sample out of such a mixed mess only gods of refining know and peoples who are actually doing it most likely don't.
> So my question is:
> Is there any smalltimer here dealing in e-scrap who usually relies on assays while buying 20-200kg lots or all what is done is a guesswork based on average content data, regardless, how inaccurate or contested these might be?




I've found companies in Germany offering analysis of boards for roughly about ~500 EUR (Au, Ag, Pd, Cu, per lot of ~1kg), largest cost being the "sample preparation fees" (read: milling, grinding).

I`d guess 99.99% of traders don't assay each small lot, just relying on somewhat universal categories of different boards (small socket motherboards, gold-edge RAM, etc.), that is why I'd say it is dishonest to remove anything (other than batteries and waste materials (plastic, Fe, Al)) from the board - that is not cherry-picking - if you remove IC or BGA or any other value bearing material and then sell the boards as "untouched" from the same category - that is cheating. You should not do that! Heck, I've heard horror stories from Russia about pre-leached boards being sold as untouched, that is very, very not cool...


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## ChemGeek

@nicks_neims,
These are sold as "used, conditions unknown, an odd part might be missing".
It is responsibilty of buyer to assess what it is worth under such circumstances, particularly that I sell face to face and not over a mail.
Scrap man probably purchases it with full consciousness, secured in knowledge that final Asian refiner (or Umicore) will foot the bill.
It is also a sad truth that "cheating", whatever it might be, became to be a standard operating procedure in Western culture in last decade or so. 
Skilled lawyers have already worked out, how to rebrand "cheating" as "expressing your intentions in sophisticated, complex manner in increasingly challenging business environment".
Politics, business, interpersonal relations are all affected by it. Evidence of pending decay of white man culture.
No, I do not run Russian style fraud you have described.
By my standards it would be beyond what one can consider "reasonable".
Btw, another smalltimer whom I know have purchased one lot of BGA chips over internet auction. Came from France, I think. Tops of these BGA were peeling off in a different manner than other lots. Soon enough he have realized that worthless pieces of shaped black plastic were glued to base of chip with superglue.
Seller explained that he is only a trader and bought this lot from someone else on another auction and refused to reimburse my friend.
So buyers beware!
There are guys determined to cheat you out there.
And because it is sold as used, not working and with no specification of Au content, you can do absolutely nothing about it. Even negative reference on eBay is problematic.
I have also purchased few processors with pins leached of gold. Only tops were presented on photo  
But the seller was otherwise so nice and helpful  , that I have decided not to pursue it further. On other occassion he have sold me a good stuff.


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## niks neims

ChemGeek said:


> Btw, another smalltimer whom I know have purchased one lot of BGA chips over internet auction. Came from France, I think. Tops of these BGA were peeling off in a different manner than other lots. Soon enough he have realized that worthless pieces of shaped black plastic were glued to base of chip with superglue.



Oh that's a good one, have not heard of that before 



ChemGeek said:


> Scrap man probably purchases it with full consciousness, secured in knowledge that final Asian refiner (or Umicore) will foot the bill.



They won`t, - final refiners pay out based on yield or assay - because of this. Also, this is one of the reasons (that e-scrap can be messed with) why pricing are so muddied... for better or for worse 



ChemGeek said:


> you can do absolutely nothing about it.



Actually there is - you can make a decision to be honest for yourself . Or at-least stop trying to morally justify a scam.... after all we all live in the world we ourselves create and deserve

Full disclosure - I kind of feel where are you coming from - about 1-1.5 year ago that is exactly how I started - I bought up computer boards, removed fingers, BGAs and ICs and re-sold them to a larger "facecless" local scrap cooperation, processed chips & fingers myself and got a nice button, but after scratching the first of the gold fever itch I found that this can't be viable business model - mostly because it gave me no moral satisfaction at all... I made a decision to change direction - not to remove anything from the boards and rather focus my energy finding a partner that can recycle my honest material fairly to a mutual benefit...
That being said I do still purchase seperated BGA IC chips & gold-fingers from time to time - and this conversation got me thinking - obviously they don't grow on trees, if there are seperated BGA then there also are the original boards from which those chips have been peeled-of... and most likely in the end those particular significantly devalued boards will be used in some scam on someone unsuspecting... So basically it is perpetuating the same ethically dubious cycle... 
In any case I`d suggest you stop selling devaluated boards to any partner you wish to have a long term relationship with, if not for ethical then for logical reasons


----------



## ChemGeek

@niks_neims,
Many members here are priding themselves with "depopulating boards partially and selling remains to bigger boys who can go and chase pins and MLCCs".
If your business model works now, it is very good but as you say, you are still participating in BGA purchases etc.
Somehow I feel no remorse in selling downgraded boards to *the faceless*, and anyway I am indicating that an odd part may be missing. It is job of their employees to assess what they buy but if these are judged base on monthly purchases in tons and competition is fierce... you know the rest.
Faceless is just that - faceless. Not more and not less. 

I have seen *the faceless* selling in their stores copper pipes proudly labelled "1mm wall thickness", when actual thickness, as I have measured with caliper was 0.75mm. This between countless other frauds what *the faceless* perpetuate every day on most of us with no challenge and no punishment.
I have challenged manager about this practice and he have shrugged me off by saying that these are made by more modern technology and so they are as good as older 1 mm versions, *so they are nominally 1mm thick* and if I don't like it, I may not buy.
There is also a phrase in recycling comunity stating that "refiner is a final liar".
We have to know where we stand. As I have said - decay of white man's culture is alive and kicking.

Btw,
I understand, you are smalltimer as well so you won't have multitonnage lots necessary to deal with *the faceless* refiner.
Yet it is entirely unprofitable to process motherboards, if you neglect reclaiming Cu, Ag, Ta/Nb or small amounts of Pd and instead concentrate on Au only.
For small company reclaiming these values is too tedious and essentially a loss making proposal due to lack of benefits of economy of scale.
How do you get around of this problem?


----------



## snoman701

niks neims said:


> I`d guess 99.99% of traders don't assay each small lot, just relying on somewhat universal categories of different boards (small socket motherboards, gold-edge RAM, etc.), that is why I'd say it is dishonest to remove anything (other than batteries and waste materials (plastic, Fe, Al)) from the board - that is not cherry-picking - if you remove IC or BGA or any other value bearing material and then sell the boards as "untouched" from the same category - that is cheating. You should not do that! Heck, I've heard horror stories from Russia about pre-leached boards being sold as untouched, that is very, very not cool...



Find a better buyer.

My buyers have plainly stated...they have to put their hands on each board to sort it, make sure there is no battery, make sure there are no mercury relays, and so on...I can dip the whole board in a cyanide leach and give it to them, it's going to be obvious that the surface gold is gone. I can remove components, it's going to be obvious. 

Simple fact of the matter is that if I can refine it and get 90-98% of the value instead of selling it and getting 50%, that's business...and my buyers respect that. In fact, they do the opposite...they sell stuff they pay scrap prices for as refurbished. 

Now, some buyers will seriously downgrade material if it's been "molested". I've found that if your buyer uses the term "molested"...you best find another buyer...and just be up front with your buyer, you cherry pick your boards. There are plenty of buyers that can grade a board that has been selectively depopulated. 

I will say...I'm not talking about taking N/S bridges off motherboards. In that case, you might as well just throw the rest of the board out.


----------



## snoman701

ChemGeek said:


> Somehow I feel no remorse in selling downgraded boards to *the faceless*, and anyway I am indicating that an odd part may be missing. It is job of their employees to assess what they buy but if these are judged base on monthly purchases in tons and competition is fierce... you know the rest.
> Faceless is just that - faceless. Not more and not less.



Idk...I get your point, but I don't like the idea that these corporations are "faceless". 

Most of them are relatively new, and built from the ground up. I'm a little guy and still communicate with the owner, or president, or whathaveyou. 

If I can teach them, I try. If they are willing to teach me, I listen.


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## niks neims

ChemGeek said:


> How do you get around of this problem?



I'm not depopulating anything - just gathering, sorting and packaging boards, even ceramic cpu`s I found that it's easier to sell on ebay...

I might garage refine for fun on hobby basis come summer time  



snoman701 said:


> I will say...I'm not talking about taking N/S bridges off motherboards. In that case, you might as well just throw the rest of the board out.



What do you take off motherboards, if anything, how would you define cherry-picking?


----------



## ChemGeek

snoman701 said:


> Simple fact of the matter is that if I can refine it and get 90-98% of the value instead of selling it and getting 50%, that's business...and my buyers respect that. In fact, they do the opposite...they sell stuff they pay scrap prices for as refurbished.


How are you reclaiming 90-98% as a smalltimer?
For that you would need to reclaim copper as well, reclaim tin and silver from solder, reclaim silver and any palladium from MLCC-s etc. 



> I will say...I'm not talking about taking N/S bridges off motherboards. In that case, you might as well just throw the rest of the board out.


I have found exactly the opposite.
My buyer have said that he doesn't mind if these (N/S bridges) are removed, and as long as all pins and other chips are in place he won't downgrade and pay full price.
Yet I am dealing with an employee, not a boss but I have taken heart in this advise and all NS bridges are meticulously removed. Hundreds of kg of boards was sold and they are actually *calling me* to provide more boards asap because business is very good. They pay approx. $6 per kg of big socket boards.
Now I wonder, am I dealing with morons or perhaps they are very crafty peoples and ultimate moros are somewhere further downstream?
Or perhaps they are making a well calculated decision, because even without BGA/NS bridge profit is still good?
Or perhaps workers are taking mickey of their boss?
These are questios I will probably never know an answer to and I will not try to find these answers from them.
They say, they are happy, I am happy as well and it will be left that way.


----------



## anachronism

Sno

That muppet of an employee is dangerous to his boss' business. Most of the gold IS in those chips- the rest is chump change on many types of board.


----------



## ChemGeek

niks neims said:


> I'm not depopulating anything - just gathering, sorting and packaging boards, even ceramic cpu`s I found that it's easier to sell on ebay...
> 
> I might garage refine for fun on hobby basis come summer time


You have written that you seek an honest partner whom you know and make a deal once you are both happy with an outcome.
So it seems that there are some peoples capable to refine small lots at profit. I wonder how they do it with motherboards without reclaiming metals other than Au.
You are obviously not dealing with *the faceless*, because if you did, you wouldn't call them "honest partner".
Or perhaps you are only seeking an "honest partner" with no warranty and only remote hope that you will ever find one?

Regarding nice CPU-s like Pentium Pro, early Pentiums (up to 90MHz etc).
I have already determined that they are much more valuable than gold inside them.
So all of them as long as not damaged in some obvious way are kept safely and treated with care.
They are not going into AR or anything like that.


----------



## snoman701

anachronism said:


> Sno
> 
> That muppet of an employee is dangerous to his boss' business. Most of the gold IS in those chips- the rest is chump change on many types of board.



No crap! 

The rest is what pays for the refining fees to get the gold out of the bga. 

There's not a lot of boards that can have the BGA's removed without devastating the grade of the board...and that falls within the skill of the sorter, and how many subcategories they've got...mostly how much they will pay for really good boards.


----------



## ChemGeek

snoman701 said:


> No crap!
> 
> The rest is what pays for the refining fees to get the gold out of the bga.
> 
> There's not a lot of boards that can have the BGA's removed without devastating the grade of the board...and that falls within the skill of the sorter, and how many subcategories they've got...mostly how much they will pay for really good boards.


For sure my buyer and in particular his sorter doesn't see any problem with *old type large socket computer motherboard*s being deprived of BGA, as long as there are no pins (and fingers if applicable in case of some accessories) missing, all other chips are in place and batteries, radiators and steel fixings are removed.
They have already paid full price few times, beginning in December last year and they are calling me to deliver as mamy boards as possible ASAP.
I am already considering buying big, one ton sized lots from other scrap yards, stripping all BGA and selling rest to that particular company at about 10-20% monetary loss.
They don't seem to be mad. They say, the business is very good, they can sell any amount they get hold of.
I suspect that either in those old type motherboards BGA are not such a great part of values as we believe (but I am very inexperienced, so I do not know) or alternatively there must be some unknown moron further downstream who is funding all of that.

Again - it is not my business to find out about their reasoning. They know that BGA are missing, consider it minor and irrelevant and still pay full price. It is all, what I care about.


----------



## niks neims

ChemGeek said:


> I am already considering buying big, one ton sized lots from other scrap yards, stripping all BGA and selling rest to that particular company at about 10-20% monetary loss.



Dude, you are gonna get screwed on this big time, don't gamble any more that you can afford to lose completely....



ChemGeek said:


> So it seems that there are some peoples capable to refine small lots at profit. I wonder how they do it with motherboards without reclaiming metals other than Au.



Don't think that it can be done, you need to get at least Au+Cu+Pd+Ag.... from the top of my head small socket MB values are about Cu:~20-30%, Au:~60-70% (about 50-70% of that being in North+South bridge BGA), Ag+Pd:~10%... And define small lots?
So far recyclers have been getting away without fully accounting for Sn, Ni, Ta, in europe at least...


----------



## ChemGeek

niks neims said:


> ChemGeek said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am already considering buying big, one ton sized lots from other scrap yards, stripping all BGA and selling rest to that particular company at about 10-20% monetary loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, you are gonna get screwed on this big time, don't gamble any more that you can afford to lose completely....
Click to expand...

I would only proceed with one such lot per month. I would not lose everything.
At worst I would be losing scrap yard premium. They tend to sell 10-20% higher than they buy. I would make sure that BGA-s on boards which I buy are not missing. If not allowed to hand check each board, I would refuse to buy.
The risk is that my wonderful buyer would just chage his mind and not buy next lot. My loss would amount to ~15%, eg 150kg of boards at $6/kg, eg $900.
That won't break me and I would remain in healthy profit base on up to date activity from last 3 months.



> ChemGeek said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it seems that there are some peoples capable to refine small lots at profit. I wonder how they do it with motherboards without reclaiming metals other than Au.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think that it can be done, you need to get at least Au+Cu+Pd+Ag.... from the top of my head small socket MB values are about Cu:~20-30%, Au:~60-70% (about 50-70% of that being in North+South bridge BGA), Ag+Pd:~10%... And define small lots?
> So far recyclers have been getting away without fully accounting for Sn, Ni, Ta, in europe at least...
Click to expand...

So if it cannot be done, then how are you going to find an honest man who will refine it for you and share profit? You may still need to sell your stock to scrapyard.
Anything up to 1 ton of boards per quarter or 4 tons a year I consider small lots.
Base on your calculation it looks like BGA are delivering 30-50% of values of *new* boards.
So perhaps it will make 15-25% of values of old boards.
So they should not be exactly "worthless" without BGA. Seems that my buyer is making an educated decisions while purchasing them. Probably some moron-refiner downstream or very low profit margin accepted.
No other easy explanation unless sorter is a monkey or he has some grievances against his boss.


----------



## niks neims

ChemGeek said:


> My loss would amount to ~15%, eg 150kg of boards at $6/kg, eg $900.



What is your plan of action if you show up with a ton of already depopulated boards and they refuse you at the gate, what do you think you'll get from next best buyer? Ask around - that is your real cost of risk... You'll be out $7000 for the material, you'll have your stash of about 10-15 kg of BGAs (hopefully rather high yielding, from older, large socket MB - best case scenario about 5.5g Au/Kg, so about $2000-$3000.... I never got that good of a yield, though) but what do you think you will get for the pile of partly depopulated large socket motherboards from other buyer? I, myself, would not feel comfortable paying much more than $0.5/kg for computer boards of unknown quality that have been messed with in any way - bottom of the barrel brown board price, in other words.... Now to manually depopulate 2000 motherboards (pick of BGAs) it will take you at least 50-70 man hours, what's your labor costs? Any way you add this up you stand to lose much more than $900 if they suddenly refuse to buy...

Probably, though, due to the decay of white man's culture, you'll just try to take the easy way out - turn around and swindle some other unsuspecting buyer....


> So if it cannot be done


I said it can't be done profitably without recovering Ag, Pd and Cu along with Au



> how are you going to find an honest man who will refine it for you



In fact, currently, I am in the middle of the negotiations with a member of this very forum that hopefully will attempt to have a go at refining some lots of small-socket motherboards for me, if the deal goes well, I will be more than happy to recommend him to you (with his permission). I really do feel there is a business opportunity right now for a middle-to-small size (still, professional scale, of course) e-scrap refiner - the insane charges and fees of larger guys really rubbed me the wrong way 



> Base on your calculation it looks like BGA are delivering 30-50% of values of *new* boards.
> So perhaps it will make 15-25% of values of old boards.


You'r speculating! but so am I ... So it's cool, as long as you understand that none of these figures are set in stone....



> So they should not be exactly "worthless" without BGA



No, but you could have removed also ICs, MLCCs, pins and who knows what else along with those BGAs... So if i`d have to buy this kind of material I either have to:
a)Check out each and every board and make calculations accordingly - and that is just not worth it...

b)Assume worst case scenario - hence the low-grade brown board price...

So it is either a standard type of material or schrodinger's cat in the sack



> No other easy explanation unless sorter is a monkey or he has some grievances against his boss.


They do not know their material well enough and are making wrong assumptions... Is it their own fault? Of course! Should you still take an advantage of them - well that is for you to answer for yourself...
I'll grant you that:


> They know that BGA are missing, consider it minor and irrelevant


Does absolve you a little ethically, but still this whole deal is built on clay feet and you should not be surprised if it falls through suddenly...


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## ChemGeek

niks neims said:


> What is your plan of action if you show up with a ton of already depopulated boards and they refuse you at the gate, what do you think you'll get from next best buyer? Ask around - that is your real cost of risk... You'll be out $7000 for the material, you'll have your stash of about 10-15 kg of BGAs (hopefully rather high yielding, from older, large socket MB - best case scenario about 5.5g Au/Kg, so about $2000-$3000.... I never got that good of a yield, though) but what do you think you will get for the pile of partly depopulated large socket motherboards from other buyer? I, myself, would not feel comfortable paying much more than $0.5/kg for computer boards of unknown quality that have been messed with in any way - bottom of the barrel brown board price, in other words.... Now to manually depopulate 2000 motherboards (pick of BGAs) it will take you at least 50-70 man hours, what's your labor costs? Any way you add this up you stand to lose much more than $900 if they suddenly refuse to buy...


I think, you tend to see glass half empty. 
Of course the right approach would be to find another buyer. If I have found one, there is no reason to believe that another one would not turn in.
But lets say that all buyers go on strike and refuse to pay full price for BGA-free motherboards.
In such situation, I believe, someone would pay 20-30% less.
They still have a look at each board by hand (albeit rather fast). At least my buyer or rather his sorter does.
But lets assume that noone have turned in.
Then I would strip all remaining chips to double gold recovery, also strip pin bearing sockets with a sort of small pneumatic hammer. Also recover MLCC in the same way.
These pin bearing sockets sell well on auctions so a lazy guy don't even need to piddle with separation of pins. Many buyers pay much more than gold content is worth.
Gold fever on ebay is hilarious.
I observe what is sold there and elsewhere and for how much.
I have designed and tested ridiculously good deals on ebay while dealing with mobile phone scrap.
Actually so good and yet absurd somehow, that I will not disclose details publicly not to make competition to myself.

There is no way that I would fail to turn profit or at least get my money back, even if my main buyer refused a deal and no other one was found, albeit at the cost of considerable labor.
In any case I have a plenty of time to waste and I love to destroy electronic devices so this wasted labor is not of a great concern.



> In fact, currently, I am in the middle of the negotiations with a member of this very forum that hopefully will attempt to have a go at refining some lots of small-socket motherboards for me, if the deal goes well, I will be more than happy to recommend him to you (with his permission). I really do feel there is a business opportunity right now for a middle-to-small size (still, professional scale, of course) e-scrap refiner - the insane charges and fees of larger guys really rubbed me the wrong way


Always good to know someone who can do something useful  
As for longer term business opportunity, I have my doubts.
If it ever became feasible for a small guy to successfully compete with *the faceless*, he will soon enough find regulatory burden growing. 
There will be ever increasing reporting requirements, necessity to secure ever expanding catalogue of permits, demands to invest in safe zones around his business due to enviromental concerns declared at a whim, requirements to account for PM for tax reasons (and this would call for verifiable assays of his small few hundred kg lots, $500 a go etc).
Small guy will make small money for few years before he becomes tedious for bigger men and then he will either go out of business or go out of social structures widely known as the West, European Union, United States, OECD etc.
Small guy has no business there. Free market here is an illusion and "democracy" becomes to be a joke.


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## niks neims

ChemGeek said:


> I think, you tend to see glass half empty.



You know the old joke?:

PESSIMIST: Dark tunnel.
OPTIMIST: Light at the end of the tunnel.
REALIST: A train.
TRAIN OPERATOR: 3 idiots standing on the tracks.

all jokes aside you don't seem like the type that come here to listen and learn, but I am gonna try for one last time:



> If I have found one, there is no reason to believe that another one would not turn in


Wrong! Find at least 2 different buyers before proceeding, even better 3 or more. A lone buyer is the definition of unreliability....



> But lets say that all buyers go on strike and refuse to pay full price for BGA-free motherboards.
> In such situation, I believe, someone would pay 20-30% less.


Why do you believe so? You do realize that when processing PCB on a large scale it makes no difference for the work involved if the BGAs are removed or not? It still takes the same amount of work to grind & mill the boards, recover and refine the PM - but the payoff is significantly less... You have been told multiple times in this thread that BGAs constitute up to or more than 50% of the value, what is the reasoning for some-one to pay only 20-30% less?... Unless you scam them in to buying of course...

In any case, I urge you, *before you proceed, plan out your exit route precisely* - find out exactly what you'll honestly get for large socket MB with removed BGAs - for example - Jon (anachronism) is from your country - what would he pay for a ton of them? It is very dangerous assumption you are making and you are setting yourself up to be hurt (financially) or to intentionally hurt someone else, when you'll dump your boards on to them...



> Then I would strip all remaining chips to double gold recovery, also strip pin bearing sockets with a sort of small pneumatic hammer. Also recover MLCC in the same way.
> [..]
> There is no way that I would fail to turn profit or at least get my money back, even if my main buyer refused a deal and no other one was found, albeit at the cost of considerable labor.



So illegally processing tons of PCBs one-by-one in your back-yard manually with nothing but a little elbow-grease? :mrgreen: and how much money will you make for your labor before G-man comes for you? What is the minimum-wage in UK right now?


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## ChemGeek

niks neims said:


> Why do you believe so? You do realize that when processing PCB on a large scale it makes no difference for the work involved if the BGAs are removed or not? It still takes the same amount of work to grind & mill the boards, recover and refine the PM - but the payoff is significantly less... You have been told multiple times in this thread that BGAs constitute up to or more than 50% of the value, what is the reasoning for some-one to pay only 20-30% less?... Unless you scam them in to buying of course...


Here I can present some reasoning:
1. Weight of old and new MB is very comparable, hence processing cost incl. shreading, grinding is comparable as well.
2. New goes at 1/2 price of old - accordingly more values on old.
3. Only from old MB BGA is taken out.
So that imply that old MB without BGA will keep about the same value as new and this is under most pessimistic assumptions.
In reality it will be more likely 75% - we must speculate because there is no other feasible way around it.
Paying for assays of small lots is out of question.

To support this further I might add that *new* MB with flip chip BGA (eg no gold) sell in few places known to me for as much as those with "proper" BGA.
Anyway, even proper new BGA are often with copper bonding wires.


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## niks neims

ChemGeek said:


> niks neims said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you believe so? You do realize that when processing PCB on a large scale it makes no difference for the work involved if the BGAs are removed or not? It still takes the same amount of work to grind & mill the boards, recover and refine the PM - but the payoff is significantly less... You have been told multiple times in this thread that BGAs constitute up to or more than 50% of the value, what is the reasoning for some-one to pay only 20-30% less?... Unless you scam them in to buying of course...
> 
> 
> 
> Here I can present some reasoning:
> 1. Weight of old and new MB is very comparable, hence processing cost incl. shreading, grinding is comparable as well.
> 2. New goes at 1/2 price of old - accordingly more values on old.
> 3. Only from old MB BGA is taken out.
> So that imply that old MB without BGA will keep about the same value as new and this is under most pessimistic assumptions.
> In reality it will be more likely 75% - we must speculate because there is no other feasible way around it.
> Paying for assays of small lots is out of question.
> 
> To support this further I might add that *new* MB with flip chip BGA (eg no gold) sell in few places known to me for as much as those with "proper" BGA.
> Anyway, even proper new BGA are often with copper bonding wires.
Click to expand...



I have nothing to add, I wouldn't dare argue against such much logic, so sound...

Just do yourself a favor - practically go through the whole cycle with a lot of 100 kg of boards instead of 1000 kg. You know, proof of concept style:
1. Peel off BGAs.
2. Go to a different buyer; get rejected.
3. Offer 20-30% lower price, get rejected again.
4. Manually Depopulate, sort and store everything you can from the board (IC,sockets, Pins, MLCC)
5. Sell on e-bay or process yourself
6. Pay to dispose of waste properly
7. Count the hours you spent vs the money you made. was it worth it? did you screw anybody along the way? can you live with that?

Before buying up tons of boards, do all of these steps at least once, in practice, don't just assume it will work because you really, really want it to...


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## anachronism

I was always taught that assuming makes an ass out of u and me.

Assume + ass u me.


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## ChemGeek

Hi all,
Btw, today I got heartlessly cheated. 
Opened parcel which came yesterday.
Bought few MB via Internet worth nominally $50 and items which came were entirely different than those on advertised photo.
On the top of it nearly *all* MLCC and most of chips were patiently soldered out.
I admire patience of the cheater in this respect, as it was "precision" job.
The best joke were BGA though.
On few *old* boards with large big square socket original BGA were unsoldered and modern flip chip versions with crystal on the top were soldered in to replace particulary a certain size of the chip.
I have only recognized that cheat because I have never before seen old type MB with large socket and old type (bigger) RAM slots to house modern type flip chip BGA. 
Time loop or something...
Further inspection after undoing few showed a lot of tin under the base.
I believe that if such a job was done on new type MB, even professional would be made in, even dealing face to face.
So I have reported it here for benefit of others.

@anachronism,
Regardless, how you might hate it, you still must *assume* certain things.
Once you send your scrap to refinery or to whoever buys it, you have to *assume* that they are going to pay you, which is far from certain these days. You are also assuming that whoever does an assay for you does not have some secret deal with refinery purchasing your stuff etc.
Life is impossible without a lot of assumptions.
Even basic claims upon which maths is built (axioms) are just assumptions.


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## anachronism

Ahh and the hidden link is in the word gold.....


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## g_axelsson

Reported, banned and deleted... they never learns.

Göran


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