# CHEMISTRY HANDBOOKS ( GOLD REFINING )



## aflacglobal

I found some of these on my old c.d's. 
I think you wanted this one gsp.

Dam this is taking forever to upload. lol
Yeap to big. If someone wants a copy pm Me and i will email you a link to the files i have. All PDF

Ralph

Note: burn them on their own backup c.d so you never lose them.

CRC Press - Handbook of Chemistry and Physics - 84th Edition (2004)

Chemistry of Precious Metals - S.A. COTTON

Practical Organic Chemistry

DOE-HDBK-10151-93 - Fundamentals of Chemistry Vol 1 of 2


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## Noxx

I want it please


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## aflacglobal

I will up load these to my server this afternoon and send them out .
Please forward your e mail address to me. It will probaly be about 
80-100 MB . I will send them out late tonight 9-10 pm cst. that way when you go to bed all you got to do is let the computer download it while your asleeep. 

Thanks,

Ralph

Note: If you miss the first installment, I will email a seperate one each weekend per request.

Double note: It shouldn't matter what your email box size is. It will not come to your e mail box, The link will then you you download it from the server, directly to your harddrive. It will never touch your mailbox. P2P


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## goldsilverpro

Thanks, Ralph, you're a good man. Are you using Pando? I sent you an email and would be interested in any and all books.


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## aflacglobal

I am going to upload it to a server. Create an account, And post the account info for all to access. It will hold 1 gig. I will post things to the site as i get them. Then all any of us has to do is access the site and download them. You can upload or download pictures, video, or files.

Might be in the morning before it's ready.

Thanks

Ralph


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## aflacglobal

O.KKKKKK
Well !!!!!

I don't know if it's me or the dam system. Friggin security. :evil: 

Anway, I got everyone a link. This is an ad sponsored site. Wait 15 sec and the download button will be at the bottom left of the page. 

CRC Press - Handbook of Chemistry and 
Physics - 84th Edition.pdf (34.54 MB), and you may download it here: 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=8b469fd072515732017ecb729916ae8e.

Chemistry of Precious Metals - S.A. 
COTTON.pdf (14.13 MB), and you may download it here: 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=e574849ded9a5839b99b1c1668c9bb1f.

Practical Organic Chemistry.pdf (28.80 
MB), and you may download it here: 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=d3f0d0bb38988bf195de8413520f6af7.


DOE-HDBK-10151-93 - Fundamentals of 
Chemistry Vol 1 of 2 [DO.pdf (4.21 MB), and you may download it here: 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=c14c0979d4cbdcd1d0873c6a1856cfbf


*ENJOY*

If you have a question or calculations for chemistry or physic. I would consder this site quite well. It has thousands of calculators for any application you could every want. 

http://www.martindalecenter.com/Calculators3B.html 

I just don't like the pen and paper thing. lol

Ralph


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## lazersteve

Ralph,

The 2004 CRC Handbook is a welcome addition to my electronic library. My old hardcopy is the 1974-75, 55th Edition. I've had it for over 20 years and keep it by my bedside for late night brainstorms.
:lol: 

Steve


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## aflacglobal

I figure we got enough threads already so i will just post it here and push this one to the top again. lol

I Found a couple of forgotten sites i like.

This one has it all. Video, research materials, and articles on everything new and up to the minute in the world of science. Just spend a minute checking it out. Every time i go to it i wind up spending and hour or two.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/matter_energy/chemistry/

The other one is for engineering questions.
http://www.eng-tips.com/

Ralph


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## aflacglobal

A little about some of my customer base and foes.


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## aflacglobal

Here's another good book on the fundementals of chemistry. This one was written in the early 60's and in a high school learning format.

For the ones of us that missed the information the first time this sure brings back memories of that first chemistry set. The one with a hundred little white bottles of chemicals and the little booklet that gave us the key to the universe. lol

THE GOLDEN BOOK OF CHEMISTRY EXPERIMENTS.PDF 

Here is the link :arrow: http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=e76203efee9c53ea8dcdf869969e259c


This is an ad sponsored site. Wait 15 sec and the download button will be at the bottom left of the page.


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## blueduck

the following link is not working..... anyone have another site to get this file from??? or was it a bad file altogether?


DOE-HDBK-10151-93 - Fundamentals of
Chemistry Vol 1 of 2 [DO.pdf (4.21 MB), and you may download it here:
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=bb6f0ba8a796f2d6f8442f3869d3423c. 

Thanks

William


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## aflacglobal

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=c14c0979d4cbdcd1d0873c6a1856cfbf

Sorry about that william. should work now.


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## blueduck

hey thanks, that one made it

I got up this morning and opened those other books up and read thru them a bit and now i would love to have hhard copies one day, of course if i had hard copies of every book i would like to have i would soon need a building to h ouse them in.... i already have boxes of books i dont have room for on the shelf, some dime novels but quite a few tech manuals and how tos.....

My dad-in-law passed away last february and i scavenged a bunch of his books, gun smithing, and chemistry formula and such type books some turn of last century and no where in print anymore..... they were destined for the scrap heap as no one else wnated them, but the knowledge in them is priceless, for after we all are gone, all anyone can remember us by are our works left for generations to come.... one of the reasons i like folks who deal in information and tech manuals like www.lindsaybks.com under their history section they have a reprint from circa 1849 on fire assay for a whopping $8 plus a buck and half shipping, and they have from time to time other books like the complete happenings in german science from that era as well [that one was nearly $50 and i should have bought it and one day will cause of the knowledge it contains] sorry to sound like a broken salesman but those folks have sold me some pretty awesome reading material over the past few years, and some of the books i got from my former dad-in-law came from them too..... though they are reference only for the most part, a person delving into certain subjects dont have to re-invent the wheel if they read the beginings of the history most of the time.

William


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## aflacglobal

Some more materials for your reading pleasure. :wink: 

Please, let's not move again any time soon. :? 

ENJOY :wink: 


IDENTIFICATION_OF_METALS_AND_ALLOYS :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=2dbe44aab41baff1c1e283db1318fec2


(ebook-pdf) - Physics - Albert Einstein - Special and General :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=3dbdd8b7d1bd9d6c150cbf5dbd4e2091


The Quantum Physics of Black Holes and String Theory :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=01f9905a58c6aa4d56bfde5b4ab0a3b7

Distillation Lab Procedure guide :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=f6bd32dae8e2d380943bb41b1e283d29

AC DC electric circuit principles and education :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=e82696c8aefe1f7b1e3c5f338344c2d4

ONE HOUR HYDROGEN PRODUCING VIDEO ABOUT FUEL CELL TECHNOLOGY AND THE ATOMS THAT DRIVE IT. ( Real player ) :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=0c8b2ab11b9de46014b2a44d46a7795b

(CRC Press - ebook) - Resource Handbook of Electronics :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=582e6c897def415b62485b9324805441

(ebook - electronics) - Electromagnetics (Rothwell & Cloud, CRC Press, 2001 ) :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=85ada1eaa4f8191a2624de55c2a7f436

(eBook - pdf) - Fluids - Engineering- Theory - Reference - F :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=bd3b08b5a718e4a5a5ae30eaaeb369d8


The_Art_of_Electro_metallurgy_Including_book :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=c4bf2be303d38c68e297168b06843809


This is an ad sponsored site. Wait 15 sec and the download button will be at the bottom left of the page.


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## blueduck

wow!!!

more great reads.... and a good movie too.... though i have to wait to see it cause its late on the left coast and just cooling off from the over 100 F mark here today.

I built a hydrogen generator and ran it in an old Ford Ranger pick up a couple years back, increased from 28 mpg to around 45, and could have been more but i ran out of time to tweek the project and it awaits one day to start it over, I actually put it in a buddy's rig and he left the unit on over a weekend and the unit needed cleaned or rebuilt, and I just have not got a "round tuit" yet. Built it out of an old fire extinguisher and some stainless rods i traded for at the scrap yard.

anyhow I love these uploads you offer to this group, about the only thing i have along these lines would be a 1922 book on batteries [600 pages] though I have some serious works on other workshop builds and experiments.

Thanks

William


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## Mida

Ok,People....

I have uploaded a couple of interesting files.You can download it here:

Wiley - The Chemistry of Organic Derivatives of Gold and Silver.pdf (6.97 MB) 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=7e658fc5869ddd814eb5badd41f14a8b 


Gold chemistry.pdf (6.50 MB)
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=e9ff3681567cf5105268bbd059e32dae


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## aflacglobal

Good books Mida, Thanks for the post. :wink:


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## aflacglobal

Gold chemistry Leaching processes :arrow: 

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=7a730d56dff80d271131104d8becb088

This is an ad sponsored site. Wait 15 sec and the download button will be at the bottom left of the page.


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## aflacglobal

Some videos 

http://svtc.etoxics.org/site/PageServer?pagename=YouTubeVideo 
Push play

http://www.interconrecycling.com/first_business.htm#art

Plus as an added bonus :!: It you act in the next ten minutes we will include the enclosed document, free of charge. You pay only shipping. lol

More info from surffing the web :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


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## aflacglobal

Some interesting science behind what happens in your gold solutions.
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


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## aflacglobal

The all-in-one softwareware for pH and acid-base equilibrium calculations and for simulation and analysis of Potentiometric Titration Curves.

a pH calculator 

» fast pH calculation of any aqueous solution of acids, bases and salts, including buffers, zwitterionic amino acids, from single component to complex mixtures (30 or more species in equilibrium);

» pH values are estimated with help of the Davies equation, from p[H] values iteractively computed with an accurate general equation (instead of the simple Henderson-Hasselbalch equation);

» fractional distribution, activities and apparent dissociation constants of all species at equilibrium are displayed.

 a Data Analyzer

» input data: pH vs. volume simulated with the Virtual Titrator, typed during a titration or imported/pasted from external source (e.g., automatic titrator); 

» titration curves and derivatives are presented graphically for visual inspection/evaluation or for ptinting or pasting in other documents;

» inflection points (end points or equivalence points) of the curves are displayed automatically, one at a time, with interpolation and controlled smoothing (cubic splines); 

» determination of multiple concentrations and refinement of pKa values by multiparametric least squares nonlinear regression - this feature is essential for very diluted and/or complex samples that exhibit titration curves with undefined inflections, eg., acid rain.

 a Virtual Titrator 

» simulation of pH vs. volume titration curves of any aqueous solution of acids, bases and mixtures;

» simulation of "near real" data tables and plots with random errors (Gaussian distribution) in pH and/or volume, to test data analysis procedures;

» user selectable increments of pH, volume and titration speed;

» overlay of curves (>10) for visualization of the effect of changing parameters;

» unlimited generation of different titration curves for drilling exercises and students' examinations.

 a Distribution Diagram Generator

» distribution diagrams (alpha plots) of mono or multiprotic acids or bases showing the fractional contribution of each protonated and unprotonated species in equilibrium, plotted against pH;

» distribution curves plotted against volume of titrant, with overlayed titration curve, revealing the principal species at the inflections and the contribution of each species at any stage of the titration;

» protonation cuves of acids or bases showing the average number of protons bound to the Bronsted-Lowry (or Lewis) base as a function of pH as well as volume of titrant (with overlayed titration curve).

 a pKa Database 

» equilibrium constants of some 250 acids and bases (see list) are already available in this user-expandable database.

» select 1 to 7 acids-base systems and, with two clicks, load the pKas in the pH_calc, Simulation or Regression modules.


MS Excel, enjoy. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


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## aflacglobal

IPMI_Guidance_Used_Mobile_Phones :arrow:


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## goldsilverpro

Where on earth did you find that weird IPMI doc.?


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## mike.fortin

Aflac--thanks that was real intresting. I had no idea all that stuff was in cells. Wonder why they have to put arsneic in cellphones? Anyone? Mike.


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## goldsilverpro

Do they still use arsenic or antimony flame retardant in circuit board material? Probably not.


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## aflacglobal

Where on earth did you find that weird IPMI doc.? 

On one of my cd's. I do so much surfing that i couldn't tell you. Save and run. I read them later, that way you can cover more ground.

I remember you talking about their releases.


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## aflacglobal

Acid H2SO4 Tech Brochure ( good tables ) :arrow:


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## blueduck

on the H2SO4 brochure I have a question relevant to page 16 [or 18 of 36 as it shows in adobe]

what does "<20 mpy" stand for [remember you are dealing with a fella with just enough knowledge to be dangerous to hisself] when concerning corrosion rate.... and is corrosin rate equilant to disolving into solution for refining precious metals?

the first aid section on page 30 [32 of 36] is the same as when I was in high school nearly 30 years ago, good t see things have not changed that much or is it that medical attention has not been devoted to chemistry in that many years?

William
Central Idaho


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## goldsilverpro

Good doc on sulfuric, Ralph. Almost too much info. Charts and graphs are great.

Corrossion is in mpyunits... something "per year", starting with an "m". There are less than 20, of these units, per year.

Can't be meters.

It could be microns. That would be .8/1000" - .0008" per year. Little small.

If it was millimeters, that would be .78" per year. Quite a bit.

I may be wrong but, my bet is that it's "mils (1/000") per year". Twenty mils is .02"/year. Reasonable to me.


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## blueduck

Thanks for the explanation, it made sense as soon as I started reading what you wrote..... I had a friend who drover OTR and knew some guys who pulled chemical tankers, and the tankers were good for about 6 months to a years time before the chemicals ate through.

On anther note i was searching for something this morning and came acrtoss this little word document from 2006, It has reference materials that refiners might also want to look for in bookstores and on the net, though some of them are out of print and not available even trough Amazon booksellers, but may be from other sources.....

William


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## aflacglobal

Platinum Applications :arrow: :arrow:

Found this to PGM Database :wink: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.platinummetalsreview.com/jmpgm/index.jsp


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## aflacglobal

Metallurgical recycling of electronic scrap :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 

Processing Electronic scrap :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


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## aflacglobal

Now if this don't brighten your day, what will ? :lol: :lol: 

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## aflacglobal

GOLD REFINING FORUM HANDBOOK :arrow: :arrow: 


You will want this one to.

Refining Precious Metal Wastes C[1].M Hoke   :arrow: 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=087a852d67c0a8beb51a6744ac3eab31
Some Video's http://tinyurl.com/4r6hag


Oh, and this :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvxnfqz0vvU


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## jimdoc

Ralph,
I like the handbook, I was thinking that would be good also.
It is tough to find important stuff on the forum, and as more
and more get added to the forum it will just get worse.

The youtube is good also, but I hate Nickelback, you should
have used The Ecstacy of Gold for the music, either Metallica
or Ennio Morricone from the movie. I think that music gives
you the going for the gold feeling. Jim


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## lazersteve

Ralph, 

The handbooks a great idea. I read thru it and found several typos and information repeats. Someone should go thru it for duplications and formatting edits. 

Overall, I like it.. good work.


Steve


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## blueduck

I like the booklet idea too..... I see some repeats as well, and I know how easy that is to do when you are jumping around getting the important data and condensing it to try to be coherent [you should see my copy and pastes in my word processor at times..... and my hen scrathed notebook can only be deciphered by myself, not from the code but from the fast scribbling]

The you tube video is good, and though the music is not what I normal listen to, it is not a bad choice at all [as a hillbilly blueduck has tastes that range from Beethoven and Rachmaninoff to the Rolling Stones to the Beatles and back to Hank Williams SR, Jr and Hank III, and a host of other musical acts depending upon the days events duly notated upon his "myspace" page though blueduck does not do well with rap, hip hop and techno drivel once in awhile he is forced to listen to the it as well in torture chambers of relatives who have teenager wannabes]

As blueduck's dad would say "the video is slicker than goose grease on a freshly watered lawn" so I posted it on the Homesteading Today forum where I moderate in the shop forum....... nice bunch of folks over there too.

William
Central Idaho


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## aflacglobal

Thanks for posting the link blue duck. I myself listen to many types of music. Rap included. :shock: I listen not only to words but the heart and soul of the singer. If the music speaks to you then i feel the artist has done his job. Rap, country, rock ( classic included ), Blue grass.

My great grandfather was a sheriff and a ridge runner in west Virgina. This was back in the day before the appalachian mountain reagion was even expose to the real world. That's why the TVA was first formed. To help get power and phone service to this isolated region. Without these a region can't really grow. It's still evident is some areas of that region today. I still go up every few years to go skiing. Beautiful country.

Anyway, Grandmother use to play the banjo. I'll never forget those sounds. Bet you can't find a handful of people today who even know what one is. Lester Flat and Earl scruggs, The possum, luke the drifter, the man in black, johnny horton, joe south, Kid rock, the stones, hell i like the barney song to.


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## aflacglobal

Ralph, 

The handbooks a great idea. I read thru it and found several typos and information repeats. Someone should go thru it for duplications and formatting edits. 

Overall, I like it.. good work. 


Steve 

I agree their are some errors. I am just trying to keep the information in the forefront. Like jimdoc said, the more post the harder to find stuff.
These are just general gatherings of topics. Just the time involved in that was crazy. Then trying to group and sort and convert.  

Steve knows. That's about all i can do for vol one. I had to do a bunch of backing up and catching up to get them. Now for 
$ 49.99 a piece i might can do something. :shock: 

I'm just trying to keep the information free and flowing. :wink: 

I have a job to.


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## lazersteve

Ralph,

Don't be too hard on yourself, the first volume is excellent. If anyone can understand the extra time involved in the projects posted here it is me. I'm happy with your first volume, I'm just trying to provide a little constructive criticism. 

Keep up the good work Ralph. :wink: 

Steve


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## aflacglobal

Oh, no problem. I was just saying if i keep messing with vol 1 it will only back up the rest of the process. Got to cut and run somewhere.

I done vol 1 shooting from the hip.

Now i can trace and correct volume 2. Vol 1 would have been better but all my topics from the old forum where hot linked. When we moved it threw me a curve ball. I know i could have changed them , but then again where would vol 2 fall behind.

Thanks


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## blueduck

Can you did an index or TOC as you paste into the pdf? 

I know when i tried to make a pdf of my wordperfect file for the court it threw everything off by a few lines and the page numbers went all funny on me.

I have the program Indesign that my wife uses at the newspaper that is an awesome program for making any pdf files and such cut and slip in a page anywhere without making it a huge problem and it a professional edition, not just a hillbilly hacked version of something else......

anyhow the first volume is awesome in the fact it has made my saving the bits and pieces i was trying to look pale in comparison, as I had not got to some of those other pages that were just a little off the path I have been sliding on..... I understand more now that I have been reading Hoke's book about certain topics and where they came from and what was being discussed..... 

I did not mean to drift the thread with music, but ya know, I traded a gallon of my moonshine [technically it was blackberry brandy] for a five string and i got pretty fair with it one winter, I grew up playing the saxophone [tenor and alto] and I dabble on the 88..... my dad played the guitar and had cut a record in the late 1950's with a few of his cousins, he too plays the keyboard, and I was raised on the classic country sounds and the bluegrass [not hippee grass that passes today for bluegrass] being close to the Canadian border allowed me to listen to music that 99% of the world never hears or knows of with the exception of a few escapees now and again from the Great White North, my dad sang many of Hank Snow railroad songs..... shoot who even knows what a water tank is today, let alone the songs of the hills like you talk about...... I live today in an area that has predominantly one radio station which plays top 40 country, consequently I listen to the sirrius satellite radio stations on the Dish network and mostly the outlaw country which plays more than country and nearly none of the current 16th avenue wannabes......

Many folks will follow onto this gold refining forum, some may never post a thing, but if they download the materials that folks have posted in this thread alone they will get an education in chemistry that perhaps which some folks who get their phd dont even come close to knowing about..... but they know where to find the information! 

I still am thinking about taking in a few college classes to get a better understanding of metallurgy after being introduced to it on this forum, or at least visiting with a few professiors and seeing if they can sharte with me anything I really need to know [vee haff vays ov making them talk to blueduck, generally asking does the trick]

Thanks and I will take the rest of my hijacking to the other parts of this forum more than likely....

William


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## aflacglobal

Your welcome blue duck. :wink:


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## aflacglobal

Here was the final word document draft Vol 1. This way it is unlocked and you can edit it as you like. Enjoy :wink: :arrow: http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=3258da119a9b227bfe9ad9fbd7cc4099

PS >> If you wondering about all the logo pastes. Well let's just say they are there for security.


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## blueduck

Ralph

Hope I did not step out of bounds in suggesting maybe as you go making a list of a TOC, or an Index of subjects.... maybe i am to retentive in that manner, as I put down a topic, a copy and paste onto the TOC page has become a matter of habit when I make a book like form or actually my court action in my briefs which all to often seems like they ended up as a book as many pages as it all ended to date in [over 1200 combined pages from both parties and the court itself] 

I have downloaded the word doc, and I can try to work on it this weekend and send it back your way..... Ive seen HTML hotlinked but can not remember ever haven seen a pdf hot linked toc to inside the doc..... will give it a shot though....

William


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## aflacglobal

Hope I did not step out of bounds in suggesting maybe as you go making a list of a TOC

Not one bit. You may do as you like with it. It's everyone's information.
My job is just to collect and put it out there. The rest is for the forum to decide.


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## aflacglobal

Now this is interesting :idea: 

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: CUPRIC ACID RECOVERY SYSTEM.


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## lazersteve

Nice system. Makes me want to build a small one for home. I wonder what the membrane material is. 

Imagine if you had a vat of always hungry Copper Chloride with an apettite for copper items! You could literally feed it pins, headers, fingers, and cpus. Then filter out the gold and collect the copper from the regeneration system. The 'AP' aka Copper Chloride Solution would always be in the most reactive condition. The power bill might be the only drawback. 

I like it.

Steve


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## blueduck

I like the looks of it as well..... and as for the power bill, with copper currently as high as it is, recovering it is about a sound of idea as any ok so a couple bux a pound is not high, but i would think that the power requirement is not as much as the return on the metal and the primary reason for using a machine as this is cleaning the chemicals up and reusing it on gold extraction.... not a perfect perpetual motion, but a good sound recycling process.... earth friendly doncha know.

William


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## aflacglobal

Copper, copper, copper. Steve and blueduck have the same idea i'm chasing. Remember, Some times gold becomes the secondary recovered product. :wink:


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## aflacglobal

Modern Marvels. Acids 350mb :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://download.xdrive.com/s/261539616oAbkSygCAt7iZ0lYVhG&partner=plus


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## blueduck

not sure if my computer is not working correctly but that avi is audio only on my computer... but the information is there..... I may need an update on some so as I can view it....

thought i posted this reply last evening..... but not sure why it did not show up.... Gremlins maybe.

William


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## aflacglobal

You might need the right player thats up to date. Try divx. It's free http://www.divx.com/
Here are some more videos. :arrow: 

Each one is 350 MB
This is a complete series.
1. Assignment Discovery - Elements of Chemistry - Part 1 of 6 - Atoms ~
The Building Blocks of Matter.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/427341717n2NVvjuiY9koDdkS2lz?partner=plus

2. Assignment Discovery - Elements of Chemistry - Part 2 of 6 - The
Periodic Table.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/4273420674hhurqsunUVEkcZWdgk?partner=plus

3. Assignment Discovery - Elements of Chemistry - Part 3 of 6 -
Compounds and Reactions.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/427342085Q447fLQlP4QekgIVgk7?partner=plus

4. Assignment Discovery - Elements of Chemistry - Part 4 of 6 - Acids
and Bases.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/427342182HPMnsKrmyPsWgAPI2Cm?partner=plus

5. Assignment Discovery - Elements of Chemistry - Part 5 of 6 - Solids,
Liquids, and Gases.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/427342210Eqm8bF8gzrCrmHmLMN8?partner=plus

6. Assignment Discovery - Elements of Chemistry - Part 6 of 6 - When
Carbon Combines.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/427342239a5EIHLJl86GmEmJN3dU?partner=plus

These are 7 day links. If you find them dead links just let me know and i will update them.


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## aflacglobal

Some very interesting videos on the world of physics. Makes you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_nkP2Oq4b0&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja0UUKbVlhA&mode=related&search=


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## goldsilverpro

Good videos, Ralph. I think they came from the excellent video, "What the Bleep Do We Know", made in 2004. I saw it about a year ago. The same group may have made more of them. They have a website. 

http://www.whatthebleep.com/

http://www.torrentportal.com/details/1185487/What.The.Bleep.Do.We.Know.DVDRip.XviD-Done.html


----------



## aflacglobal

String Theory. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 



1. IMAX - BBC - The Elegant Universe - Part I - Einstien's Univ.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/933535431C8CpBHCW0eObVk31hA1?partner=plus

2. IMAX - BBC - The Elegant Universe - Part II - Strings the th.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/933535471YL76j8riYfYEikmOzQN?partner=plus

3. IMAX - BBC The Elegant Universe Part III Welcome To The 11th.avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/933535486l38sHOHRi7kAbOk9ouw?partner=plus

4. IMAX - Space - Are We Alone(1).avi
http://download.xdrive.com/s/933535587hZX1RWS9cTHwk2EHUFs?partner=plus


These are about 200 MB each. I love the BBC stuff.

These are 7 day links. If you find them dead links just let me know and i will update them.


----------



## aflacglobal

ACIDS-BASES-SALTS-FORUM BOOK[1] :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## aflacglobal

Quick assays in mineral identification :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 

Thanks Blueduck. :wink:


----------



## aflacglobal

_*How to process Gold polishing sweeps.*_

Via the Harold method. Thanks harold i just had to copy this one. :wink: :arrow: :arrow: 

Note: their is a different process for those sweeps from the Silver bench.

My approach was very simple. 

1} Incinerate in a shallow pan, heating from below. Ignite the material to eliminate the majority of smoke and stink. It will readily burn once hot enough. Incinerate until all carbonaceous material has been eliminated. There should be no glowing embers. Allow them to burn completely. Insure the pan is hot enough by heating with a torch from the bottom. Don't burn through the pan. An old stainless fry pan works very well for this operation. Find them at Goodwill or other second hand stores. DO NOT USE ALUMINUM. 

2} Screen after cooling, to remove any sizeable pieces that would be difficult to dissolve without inquartation. 

3} Run a magnet through the material to remove free iron particles. They should be placed in the stock pot, not discarded. They generally will transfer miniscule traces of values. 

4} Place screened wastes in a beaker, or a container that will tolerate being heated. 

5} With an approximate mixture of 50/50 tap water and HCl, cover the contents with solution, then place on hot plate. Heat slowly until contents are brought to a boil. Stir regularly to prevent the container from overheating and breaking from thermal shock. 

6} After a reasonable boil period, (contents will change color), remove from heat and fill container with tap water. Stir well. 

7} After solids have settled well, decant solution. Test for values, then discard if barren. It is rare to find values in the solution unless you have allowed nitrates to be included. 

8} Repeat the above operation until the rinse water is clear, or nearly so. 

9} Apply AR @ 5 ounces per troy ounce of values expected to be recovered. Use only what is necessary, to minimize the amount of nitric that must be evaporated later. Heat to boiling, and stir regularly. Do not allow the material to dry on the bottom of your container, which will lead to thermal shock and cracking, as above. Make your AR @ 4 HCl/1 nitric, not less. If in doubt, move up to 5 HCl/1 nitric. Too much HCl does no harm, unlike too much nitric. 

10} When values are in solution (note color change of solids, and the yellow color of the solution), and you see no fumes coming from the container, remove from heat and add a few ounces of water. Stir, then allow contents to settle. 

11} Decant, then add more water to solids and stir well. Repeat this operation until you have removed the bulk of values. Note the color of the solution, which will slowly shift towards clear as it is washed. 

After the final decantation, place the solids in a filter (Sharkskin works very well for this operation) and extract all solution possible. 

Combine all solutions from the AR process and evaporate to eliminate water and nitric. Add a few drops of sulfuric to the evaporation process early on, which will precipitate any traces of lead that may be included in the process. Be very careful about adding sulfuric to hot solutions. It is best added while they are cold. Stir as it is added to prevent local generation of steam. 

After evaporation, take up with water, filter, precipitate, and wash appropriately. 

I suggest you do none of the extraction processes until you've read Hoke's book---so you have a general understanding of what you're doing, and why. None of this is difficult----it becomes routine after you've done it a few times. Do not allow the outline to discourage you. 

Dry the waste solids by heating, then save them. Do not store them wet----they will give off fumes endlessly and destroy anything of value in the immediate vicinity by corrosion. Please take my word on this part (the solid waste material, after acid processing) ---it is a wonderful savings plan. The values remaining are not substantial, but they add up. Remember------you will have left silver behind in this operation, not just traces of gold. 

Note that this process will not be suited to processing wastes high in silver. It will remain in the solids. If you process waste from the silver bench, it becomes somewhat more complicated. I can talk about that if and when it is an issue. It is a waste of time to pursue traces of silver with each batch. 

Harold


----------



## aflacglobal

Leaching gold and silver ores The Plattner and Kiss processes. :arrow: http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=dbbd8fd21dbe8bb59d6973d695cca857


The reducer's manual and gold and silver worker's guide :arrow: http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=20ec5aa73568deb48b83c201b24da04e


A manual of metallurgy, more particularly of the precious metals, but including such others as are employed in dental practice :arrow: http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=d4c0bef4fa8be918d547abbe41e5a315

Video  :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88vUAdhjKuc


----------



## blueduck

what type of file is the 3rd one? my computer did not recognize it as a file that it has the ability to open..... maybe it just needs prompted to remember in its old age.

edied to add......Well poop ADOBE opened it anyhow!

edited a second time to say that these 3 books are awesome and shoot they were written in the mid 1800's !!!! i get a kick out of reading the "olde" formulations and trying to figure out what the current name for the chemicals are [yeah i know go buy the book from Lindsay technical books they wrote that does all the figgerin]


William


----------



## aflacglobal

Once you read this you will understand flotation.

Zeta Potential :arrow:


----------



## Shaul

Thank You Ralph, those are great additions to my 'virtual' library.

Since we're on the subject of downloads, in Oct. of last year you posted the 6-part 'Elements of Chemistry' video series on a '7-day' link.

For those of us (like myself) unfortunate enough to have joined after that date, we missed out. So how about a re-posting? Pleassse??

Shaul


----------



## aflacglobal

Something interesting :arrow: Forms of Chlorine in Water


----------



## Shaul

So how about it?
How about re-posting the 6-part 'Elements of Chemistry' video series.

Shaul


----------



## aflacglobal

Sorry i have been looking for it in my libary of cd's. I'll remember.


----------



## aflacglobal

Thermal Studies and Oxidation Reactions with Room-Temperature Ionic Liquids :arrow:


----------



## blueduck

Ralph check your PM's

and if I did not say it before, thanks for the books and other information you post in this thread.... 

William


----------



## aflacglobal

I have heard a couple of people mention taking courses. Here is one that is free and online with videos and all. :arrow: 

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/

Or type in U.C. Berkeley chemistry on utube


----------



## aflacglobal

Metals in Hydrochloric Acid reactions for a metal electrode :arrow: http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/metalshcl/index.html ( hit view )

Dissolving Salts in Water Thermal reactions :arrow: http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/dissolvesalt/index.html

Interesting visual demo


----------



## blueduck

nice visuals I forwarded the links to a couple of homeschoolers in the local area....

William


----------



## geubrina

Ralph, I can say no words, but THANK YOU.

Sugianto


----------



## Platinum

Chemical Bonding :arrow: 

Gold Recovery 
Solvent Extraction using Ferro Chemical Butyl Diglyme :arrow: http://www.ferro.com/Our+Products/Fine+Chemicals/Products+and+Markets/Gold+Recovery/


----------



## Palladium

Alright this needs to go here. For those that follow this thread i think you will see the importance of this information and these processes. For most it will give you ideas. For the copper folks you can see the light a little clearer. For the gold people check out the use with sulphide refractory ores. Hell check it all out. I think it's one of the best over all processes i have seen in awhile. Answered a lot of my question and brought up a lot of new ones to. :wink: 

IGP :arrow:

:idea: Happy Reading :idea:


----------



## Palladium

Interesting facts about Activated Carbon and Adsorption. :arrow: 

Comparison of Particle Sizes
1-inch ball 25.4 mm (millimeters) = 25,400 um or μm or “microns” (micro-meters)
pollen 10 - 100 microns
smallest item visible to naked eye 40 microns
fog droplet 2 - 50 microns
“dirt” 40+ microns
silt and clay ½ - 20 microns
pathogenic protozoan cysts 3 - 20 microns
Cryptosporidium oocysts 3 - 7 microns
Cyclospora cysts 8 - 10 microns
Giardia cysts 8 - 12 microns
Entamoeba cysts 12 - 20 microns
red blood cells 7 ½ microns
most bacteria and algae ½ - 5 microns
“turbidity” 0.1 - 5 microns
colloids 0.1 - 5 microns
wavelengths of visible light 0.40 (blue) – 0.77 (red) microns = 400 (blue) – 770 (red) nm (nanometers)
cigarette smoke 10 – 1000 nm
viruses 10 – 250 nm
protein molecules 2 – 50 nm
individual atoms 0.05 – 0.25 nm



Adsorption: Not to be confused with absorption (which is what a sponge does), adsorption is the attraction of tiny particles or dissolved molecules to a solid surface and holding them there by weak intermolecular forces. It is similar in concept to magnetism and the attraction due to static electricity, but much weaker. In theory, every atom in the universe has some degree of affinity for every other atom in the universe, just like gravity. But, just as gravity requires enormous masses like planets and stars to show its effects, adsorption requires extremely tiny distances to show its effects. In adsorption, the particle in question is randomly bounced around the solution by collisions with water molecules and other molecules in the water. (This is called Brownian motion.

It is estimated that an atom or molecule in water is involved in a million-billiontrillion or 1027 collisions with other atoms or molecules every second. This is part of the definition of temperature.) Eventually, by chance, it will be bounced so close to the surface of a wall or another larger particle that there are very few water molecules separating it from the surface. When that happens, those few molecules produce only a few collisions from that side, and the particle is overwhelmed by collisions from the other sides and tends to become “plastered” to the surface by a continual barrage of collisions from the solution. This is the “physical” half of adsorption. The “chemical” half occurs if there is any chemical affinity between the particle and the material of the surface. If there is, the particle will become attached (adsorbed) and stay there; if not, it will bounce off right away or just diffuse away, later.

The adsorptive forces (called van der Waals or London forces) are so weak that adsorbed substances can become desorbed rather easily—by adding certain acids, by heating the system, or by merely removing the contaminant from the influent water. For example, activated carbon filters or ion exchange beds nearing exhaustion are subject to desorption if the water quality suddenly changes for the better. That shows that these treatment techniques are equilibrium (balance) phenomena in which sorption and desorption both occur and achieve an average condition, like a well-matched tug-of-war. 

Since adsorption requires a surface, commercial adsorbent materials have very large surface areas and are exemplified by activated carbon, activated alumina, and fine powders such as baking soda. But many substances are so very insoluble or otherwise so readily adsorbable that even small surface areas can make a big difference. For example, most heavy metal ions (lead, mercury, copper, cadmium, silver, chromium) adsorb so strongly to the walls of both glass and plastic sample bottles that more than half of the total contamination can be missed in an analysis if the sample bottles are not treated with nitric acid first, to cause desorption. Similarly, many chlorinated hydrocarbons like the polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) adsorb so readily to both metal and plastic plumbing and filter materials that even coarse prefilters remove them very well.

The adsorption and reduction of disinfectant chlorine by activated carbon is a special case. Activated carbon is a mild reducing agent and chlorine is a strong oxidizing agent, so after chlorine becomes adsorbed, it then actually reacts with the carbon. The chlorine is reduced to chloride ion (as in table salt and sea water), one atom of carbon is oxidized to carbon dioxide, and both are released to the solution (desorbed). Meanwhile, most of the spots on the activated carbon where all this took place become “auto-regenerated” back to their original, like new
condition, ready to adsorb again. For free available chlorine (FAC), this
takes only about fifteen minutes, which means that a small amount of carbon can achieve an acceptable steady-state condition if the flow rate is slow or intermittent. For “combined chlorine” (monochloramine), the reaction is much slower, and more carbon or more contact time is needed to achieve equivalent reductions. The chemical reactions between activated carbon’s “active sites” (C*) and these forms of chlorine are shown below. Note that any surface oxides on the carbon are recycled when reacted with monochloramine, while they are oxidized to CO2 and lost when reacted with free chlorine.

Free Chlorine
Cl2 + H2O ⇔ HOCl + H+ + Cl − (forming “aqueous chlorine”)
C* + 2Cl2 + 2H2O ⇒ C*O2 + 4H+ + 4Cl− (the overall reaction)
C* + HOCl ⇒ C*O + H+ + Cl−
C*O + HOCl ⇒ C*O2 + H+ + Cl−

Combined Chlorine: Monochloramine
C* + NH2Cl + H2O ⇒ C*O + NH3 + H+ + Cl−
C*O + 2NH2Cl ⇒ C* + N2 + H2O + 2H+ + 2Cl−
Finally, most dissolved/suspended particles and molecules in drinking water that are highly adsorbable to something usually do become adsorbed to a larger particle before reaching the point of use. Thus, adsorbable contaminants can often be removed by mechanical fine-filtration because the contaminant in question is already adsorbed to a larger particle. If you remove the particle, you remove the adsorbed contaminants along with it. This commonly applies to heavy metal ions, many pesticides, other chlorinated hydrocarbons, viruses, and
asbestos fibers. About Activated Carbon: Granular activated carbon (GAC) and powdered activated carbon (PAC) are the predominant adsorbents used in our industry.

They can be made from nearly anything organic: coal, petroleum, wood, coconut shells, peach pits, ion exchange resin beads, fabrics, even waste plastics. The starting material is first charred—heated without air or oxygen, so it doesn’t burn up. Everything that can be vaporized or melted bubbles out as tar or pitch, leaving many holes and channels. Then the charred material is heated further, to above 1000陣C (hot enough to melt aluminum and lead), with the introduction of live steam or other activating chemicals. The superheated water vapor is extremely corrosive, etching more holes and extending channels to an amazing degree. Metallic impurities are preferentially attacked and washed out, resulting
in a significant purification of the original material.

However, the heat of activation does more than extend holes and channels and increase the surface area of carbon; it also changes the fundamental crystal form from amorphous “carbon black” to the perfect crystalline array of graphite plates. The carbon atoms in graphite are arranged in sheets or plates of interlocking six-atom rings that look like slices through a honeycomb. Such a perfect arrange-ment causes the London forces to focus and concentrate at the surface, making activated carbon the best (strongest and most general) adsorbent known.
After activation, the carbon may be treated further to produce specific chemical qualities on the surface. For example, an acidic environment produces carbon with maximum capacity for heavy metals but minimal capacity for chlorinated organics, while an alkaline environment does the opposite. Most grades used in our industry are made for organic adsorption. When activation is complete, the carbon is a delicate, airy material that is so full of holes, it can barely hold together. It is crushed to a powder, and then proprietary binders are added to form granules of the desired size. The final product has a total internal and external surface area of more than 1000 square meters per gram, or half a
football field inside a piece the size of a pea.

Activated carbon adsorption is useful because the material has strong chemical affinities for several important classes of contaminants that are common in water. These are:

1. Disinfectant chlorine: “Free available chlorine” (FAC) is readily
adsorbed, then chemically reduced, and finally desorbed as chloride ion
along with one molecule of carbon dioxide, with auto-regeneration of most
of the carbon’s active sites and nearly infinite capacity. “Combined
chlorine” (monochloramine) is less easily adsorbed, requiring more
carbon or reduced flow rate for equivalent performance.

2. Organic compounds containing chlorine and other halogens: Simple
halogenated hydrocarbons are highly adsorbable to activated carbon. This
includes a great many pesticides (DDT, Endrin, Lindane, Chlordane, etc.),
industrial solvents (trichloroethylene, trichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene,
carbon tetrachloride, etc.), and disinfection byproducts (THMs including
chloroform, chloral hydrate, etc.).

3. Organic compounds containing benzene rings: These include some of the most toxic chemicals, such as benzene, toluene, dioxins, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and phthalate esters (plasticizers for vinyls).

4. Heavy metals: Lead, cadmium, and mercury adsorb readily, both as
dissolved ions and colloidal oxide or carbonate particles, but the capacity
is limited—similar to the capacity for THMs.

5. Taste and Odor (T&O) compounds: The substances produced by
microbes that are responsible for the common musty-earthy-mildewy T&O
are extremely well adsorbed and with very great capacity 

http://www.everpure.com/pdf/shortcourse.pdf >>>>>>


----------



## Palladium

Bromine :arrow: http://www.crscientific.com/article-bromine.html

Bromates :arrow: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms/Chem_Bromate.html


----------



## Lou

The best way to make bromine is from bromate and hydrobromic acid. Yield is nigh on quantitative. Sep funnel the formed bromine. Sep again with conc. sulfuric acid to remove water. 


The second link is curiously enough about me . I sent him that platinum, and the titanium, and the bromide . I wish I could get Tim here on this board!


----------



## Palladium

Refining Precious Metal Wastes C[1].M Hoke :arrow: http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=087a852d67c0a8beb51a6744ac3eab31
Some Video's :arrow: http://tinyurl.com/4r6hag


----------



## Shaul

I also found Hoke's book (as a free download from 'filesend') posted on another forum.

Although I downloaded the file, I'm still (in the process of) buying the hard copy. Why?

There are certain advantages to a digitized version. For instance, you can download it to a laptop, 'Palm' (or other hand-held), or cellphone that accepts pdf files. Also, it's free.

But if your computer crashes or the electricity goes out, you're out of luck. 

Even printing it out, 369 A4 pages is a bit cumbersome to be reading on the way to work.

Call me old-fashioned, but a real book has a certain something (a certain mystique) that a digital copy will never match.

Also, it involves a level of commitment. Putting out $50-$75 for a book is not something I do every day.

You can think about remodeling your home. You can make plans, speak to experts and read books, but once you've torn up the floor you know there's no going back.

So Yes, I will be reading the digitized version while waiting for my hard copy to arrive.

Shaul


----------



## Anonymous

wonderful post!


----------



## Palladium

Shaul said:


> So how about it?
> How about re-posting the 6-part 'Elements of Chemistry' video series.
> 
> Shaul



Shaul, I'm re-downloading this again and should have you a link ina a couple of days.
Plus a couple of extra ones. :wink: 

HDTV.Discovery.100.Greatest.Discoveries Chemistry.


----------



## Gene Gindling

aflacglobal said:


> O.KKKKKK
> Well !!!!!
> 
> I don't know if it's me or the dam system. Friggin security. :evil:
> 
> Anway, I got everyone a link. This is an ad sponsored site. Wait 15 sec and the download button will be at the bottom left of the page.
> 
> -snip
> 
> Chemistry of Precious Metals - S.A.
> COTTON.pdf (14.13 MB), and you may download it here:
> http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=e574849ded9a5839b99b1c1668c9bb1f.
> 
> -snip
> 
> I can't seem to get this manual. I receive a file not found error
> Please let me know where to get it.
> Thanks in advance,
> Gene


----------



## Palladium

Chemistry of Precious Metals - S.A. 
COTTON.pdf (14.13 MB), and you may download it here: 
:arrow: 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=ad74ee2700beddc660ef62e6d60f4b4d


----------



## Gene Gindling

Thank you Palladium, That link works.
Gene


----------



## Gene Gindling

gustavus.
I beat you to it and already copied your excellent work. I will be purchasing a hard copy also.
Thanks for your time and contribution.
Gene


----------



## Palladium

SSN Leach :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Very Interesting.
Maybe black sands with gold or silver that is Silica Encapsulated. :?: 
This was part of my preliminary research for Barrick. 3 days to deadline and 108 pages out of 178 total.

This ain't it though. :lol:


----------



## Palladium

Sonoluminescence and Sonochemistry
Cavation in liquids. :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

RESOURCE RECOVERY AND RECYCLING
FROM METALLURGICAL WASTES :arrow: http://download.xdrive.com/s/357193812MP4cfntNFbFryb10ZnO?partner=xdrv


----------



## blueduck

Me likes the SSN leach paper, though it raises a couple questions i will have to look into i believe have already been answered in some other papers ive read.... I did not know that lead sulfate was used by drug cookers..... though is not it available in a car battery if you tear one apart? so why would a cooker take a chance of having the FBI knock on his/her door <---- rhetorical question, the idiots i know that have been caught are just that, pretty much idiots so I answer my own question.... small town everyone knows everyone else and there aint much of a 6 degree separation here....

Sonic sounds good, but not sure it would be viable on a small scale miners budget...... but then again if the professors are right the sands are worth a fortune twice over.....

William
Idaho


----------



## Anonymous

William I put the SSN information on the forum way back , no one had made any comments on the use of it so I had removed the document. 

Palladium has reposted it bless him. Now you have shown some interest in the leach.

I would appreciate that you post what you earn along the way, I used SSN once during cold weather the stuff is aggressive even in the cold. I used a 1 lb zinc ingot to drop my gold which has yet to be washed etc.

A very mild leach to handle and cheap to make. Please do keep me posted on its use if you decide to try a batch.

Best Regards
Gill


----------



## Palladium

So that's where i got that from. I couldn't remember. I was going thru some old backup cd's and happened to find it again. Thanks Gill.


----------



## Palladium

Nitric acid and hydrogen peroxide :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

chlorine cost number per pound produced :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

catalytic converter rhodium leach :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

2007_Money_Laundering_Strategy_of_IRS_ AML :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

alkaline-etch-process :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

coil_design Induction :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

ENGR 498 Final Design Report induction stove :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Gold chemistry Leaching processes CHEMISTRY OF THE CIP PROCESS cyanide :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Laboratory Production of Sulfuric Acid :arrow:


Sulfur dioxide solubility in water as a function of temperature :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

RECOVERY OF METAL VALUES FROM FINISHING HYDROXIDE SLUDGES
BY PHOSPHATE PRECIPITATION :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

A textbook of assaying for the use of those connected with mines :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

McGraw-Hill Deans Analytical Chemistry Handbook :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

The organometallic Chemistry of the Transition Metals :arrow:


----------



## blueduck

I like that the last book there [The organometallic Chemistry of the Transition Metals] has a couple pages of the abbreviations it uses right up front for a quick reference that a person dont have to go hunting for elsewhere in the book..... I check out all files to make sure they are not corrupted on my machine, and browse through to see if things catch my attention..... yeah i can read and retain at a fairly high rate of speed [wish i could type as fast as my brain can think sometimes] 

I like the electronic books for ease of search, and if I really enjoy the book it makes me want a hard copy of it cause there really isnt anything that has the feel of a friendly text [ok so I like to read more than the average bear, yogi].

Thanks Ralph

William
Idaho republik


----------



## Palladium

Corrosion resistance of Titanium :arrow: 

Shor gold patent :arrow:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4612093.html

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=41&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=485&start=0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process


----------



## Palladium

Defense Scrap Yard Handbook :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Gold Refining Forum Handbook Vol #2 (PREVIEW) :arrow:

Preview 

Please remember that this is nowhere near done. 
All Links are included and Hot. 
Put you cursor over it and Hit Ctrl and click mouse. 

Volume 1 and 2 will be combined into one volume at the end. 
May take me awhile.


----------



## blueduck

seems like the links take me all to the same index page.....

William


----------



## Palladium

They all work on my browser Blue duck.

Anyone else :?:


----------



## Palladium

:wink: Meow. :wink:


----------



## Platdigger

Well, well, well, ....look who is posting!
Welcome back Palladium
Randy


----------



## Palladium

Thanks Randy. Good to be back. :wink: 
For a minute anyway.


----------



## blueduck

RALPH!!!!

my gosh I have missed your addition of books to this forum, and a whole lot more. I hope you are well, well rested, and that you know that many others missed your input too...... keeping folks on the str8t and narrow.

things have gone upside down in the economy since May it seems, maybe your absence had nothing to do with that..... but maybe....... lol

Welcome back.

William
on the rez
North Central Idaho


----------



## lazersteve

Well, 

Look what the cat dragged in! :lol:

Welcome back Ralph!

Steve


----------



## qst42know

I get an error when trying to view this file.

"Unable to load graphics conversion filter..."

What am I missing? Is a word program required?


----------



## SapunovDmitry

Hey! Ralph! Good to see you!


----------



## Palladium

Hey guys thanks for the support. Hope to be back soon.

:wink:


----------



## Anonymous

aflacglobal said:


> A little about some of my customer base and foes.



hi aflacglobal


hows business in south africa? is the environment getting more competitive with jewelers buying less gold and platinum?

best of luck


----------



## Palladium

mike101 said:


> aflacglobal said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little about some of my customer base and foes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hi aflacglobal
> 
> 
> hows business in south africa? is the environment getting more competitive with jewelers buying less gold and platinum?
> 
> best of luck
Click to expand...

 Actually i haven't been dabbling in those areas for quiet sometime now.
But their is no shortage of customers for the surplus. Millions of ounces are being purchased world wide as we speak to be used as a hedge.


----------



## Platinum

8)


----------



## blueduck

oy vey he has assumed new metallugic properties!!! Pd,to Pt, Au, Ag, Rh..... whats next? Sn?

ROFL

William who is still plain ole Blueduck!


----------



## Palladium

What's up duck ?

Yeah i didn't want to cheapen myself with Silver. :lol:


----------



## blueduck

Not much up, getting ready to celebrate the oldest boys 8th "civil entry date" seems like just yesterday I was toting him home from the hospital the day after he arrived [which was my civil entry date] and getting taken out on the town for a round at the local pubs..... I feel old at times, and yet those who have matured way past the 46 years i get to count backwards on Monday from tell me I aint even getting old yet...lol but i feel like i am.

Been trying to figure out life and w way to pay some bills and make some more.... buying and selling coins for the past few months, mostly silver, some just old rare collectibles that have been reasonable enough to fill some old collections i started as a kid [ok so my ability to buy better coins now than i could way back has upgraded] I discovered a couple really neat things in my renewed old hobby of coins the other day, there are people who collect not only old silver dollars, but they collect and pay more for die cracks and anomalies on the faces of those old coins which i figured made them less desirable..... learn something new everyday i say.... though my wife says i need to sell some coins now before i buy any more, kind of like vehicles.... i seem to acquire them but tend not to let them go until I really have to. wanna buy a historical boxing ring yet? 

A couple weeks back i traded some building materials i had laying around for a Gold screw for palying in the creeks next year..... I still am looking for a decent 1.5 inch dredge for sampling though, my digging partner beat me to the one i was looking at for my family, but i suspect i will find one or one will find its way to me in the next few months time.....lol. I kind of put off refining a whole bunch of different things until i can get my shop in better order, and build a fume hood and water filter the fumes though, or at least til i can move outside of town and away from anything that the fumes can harm..... since i live across from the local elementary, middle and high schools I dont need to much scrutiny on what i am doing....lol

books i am looking for on disk [pdf] coin books.... and chemistry books of all sorts still, the electronic library is still growing, but i can only scrounge so much in and stay "insane" or is it "sane" mad i say it drives a fella mad looking and trying to get a days work in and still search for decent materials......lol

Hope your health is something we can toast to!

have an ordinary day

William


----------



## Palladium

Leaching Gold from Concentrates using Chlorine Based Halides :arrow: 
http://www.nuggethunters.org/Leaching.txt


----------



## Palladium

DOWEX Resins for Separation of Gold from Liquid Media :arrow: 
http://www.dow.com/liquidseps/prod/pt_au.htm

DOWEX Resins for Separation of Platinum Group Metals (PGM) from Liquid Media :arrow: 
http://www.dow.com/liquidseps/prod/pt_platinum.htm


----------



## Palladium

A good find from DNI :arrow:
Base_Metals_Handbook


----------



## Palladium

Harold recommended this book many many moons ago. I just got around to reading it and i must say that if you haven't read this book yet you should give it a try. 

The_Metallurgy_of_Gold book.pdf By Sir T.K. Rose. :arrow: http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=1afab59921a2844f7782ad1e24f15b62

Do a little research into who the man was to, I think you will be suprised. :wink:


----------



## Palladium

Chemistry of Precious Metals - S.A. COTTON.pdf :arrow: 
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=ad74ee2700beddc660ef62e6d60f4b4d


----------



## aflacglobal

Urea Purification By Noxx :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Noxx

Geez, my english was so bad...


----------



## Oz

Noxx, your English is better than many on the forum that grew up in the US or England.


----------



## butcher

your english is better than this hillbilly.


----------



## aflacglobal

Chris,
I thought you might find this interesting. Remember the discussion we had about your idea with silver and ultrasound on the phone awhile back? Check this out :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## goldsilverpro

Hey, Ralph,

I'm aware of the cavitation produced by ultrasonics and that it will dislodge the silver chloride produced when dissolving any karat golds directly (and very very quickly) in aqua regia. Depending on the frequency, the bubbles can be created and exploded 50,000 times per second. Scrubbing bubbles!


----------



## Lou

Ultrasound aided digestion is amazing!! 

Microwave aided digestion also works in much the same way.


Too bad ultrasonic probes are so expensive ;-/

Sonication used to be (and still is in some circles) very hip for organic and organometallic chemists...


----------



## qst42know

Could this be the key to complete efficent recovery of all PGM's from cats?


----------



## aflacglobal

8) 8) 8)


----------



## Noxx

I tried to remove silver chloride using a small jewelry cleaning unit. And it does not work at all lol.

We need much more powerful probes...


----------



## qst42know

Yes, I have seen this chart (thanks for posting it), and as acids do provide chemical energy for dissolution, however would the aggressive mechanical scrubbing action of ultrasonics assist in the dissolution of PGMs just as it speeds the action of acids on the other PMs??? 

Perhaps there is some merit for some experiments?

Would the additional mechanical energy overcome the resistance?

What say you. Lou?


----------



## Lou

Ultrasonic and microwave assisted digestion work because of cavitation. Basically, little bubbles form and collapse at a high rate, such a rate in fact that the there is a rapid temperature change in a small volume. This also means very high pressures. Higher temperatures means higher K value. Higher pressure also means this. The temperatures and pressures are well into the thousands of degrees Celsius and hundreds of bar (atmospheres/~15psi). 

What does this do to the silver? Well, first, excess HCl will in fact dissolve silver chloride. High temperatures and pressures will markedly improve how much AgCl dissolves. Secondly, and most importantly, each time one of these little bubbles collapses, a shock wave is formed. This shock wave knocks off AgCl film that forms, over and over and over again.


As far as I know, no one has a good explanation for what initiates cavitation. There's a Field/Nobel medal in the answer, and also a lot of PDEs...


----------



## Noxx

It's true that's it's strange... At first I taught it was water vapor but it's not


----------



## aflacglobal

High Performance sonic impulses :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## goldsilverpro

Noxx,

Your jewelry unit just isn't powerful enough. When you buy u'sonics, you pay for power. In the 70s, we paid about $1500 for a one gallon Branson unit. It was so powerful that, with the proper solution, it could penetrate between the layers of multilayer ceramic IC packages and dissolve the moly-manganese traces, in just a few seconds.


----------



## qst42know

It sounds as if ultrasonics has some potential. 

Would it allow Rh to dissolve in AR?


----------



## Palladium

Ozone Chemistry :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

PEROXONE Advanced Oxidation Process (AOP) -- Ozone / Hydrogen Peroxide :arrow:


----------



## jsargent

aflacglobal said:


> Chris,
> I thought you might find this interesting. Remember the discussion we had about your idea with silver and ultrasound on the phone awhile back? Check this out :arrow: :arrow:


This notion of using ultrasound to attack ores is exciting stuff. The incredible temperatures and pressures created during sonication are bound to have a liberating effect on refractory ores. can't wait to try it. Goldsilverpro recently suggested I look for a sonicator used in old Freon degreasers but no luck finding one yet. Anyone have any leads on a surplus high power ultrasound generator? A flow-thru unit would be superb and obviously thet're used industrially so there's bound to be one laying about somewhere needing a good home :wink:


----------



## Palladium

8)


----------



## Palladium

Just some notes :arrow: 

The Plattner Process :arrow:

Pre-oxidation of high-sulfur and high-arsenic refractory gold concentrate by ozone and ferric ions in acidic media.


----------



## Palladium

How to build your own Ozone Machine for cheap :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Gold_Recovery_Butyl_Diglyme[1] :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

GOLD_REFINING_FORUM_HANDBOOK_VOL_2 ( FINAL ) :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 

O.K. This is the final draft for book # 2
All links will be updated to reflect this download.

Hope everyone enjoy's :wink: :wink: :wink:


----------



## Palladium

This one comes from our member Firewalker.

Testing_Precious_Metals_C.M_Hoke[1] :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14426836/Testing-Precious-Metals-CM-Hoke1


----------



## Palladium

Electroplating_and_Electrorefining[1] :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/share/upload/11029464/y90dry403u1y06iedh4

THE IGOLI MERCURY FREE GOLD EXTRACTION PROCESS Acid bleach leaching :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/share/upload/11029660/aohszuo88hijjmmc0c3


----------



## Irons

Palladium said:


> Electroplating_and_Electrorefining[1] :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/share/upload/11029464/y90dry403u1y06iedh4
> 
> THE IGOLI MERCURY FREE GOLD EXTRACTION PROCESS Acid bleach leaching :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/share/upload/11029660/aohszuo88hijjmmc0c3




There has been a lot of interest in working with Arsenic bearing refractory ores lately.

Don't do this indoors.


----------



## Palladium

Thanks to Gustavus. :wink: 

You_Can_Smelt_Too :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/share/upload/11736973/ueo08ebmiiynwecd5fd


----------



## Palladium

This one is courtesy of Lou. He ordered and PAID for this out of his on pocket. Thanks Lou. :wink: 

Leaching of Gold and Palladium With Ozone :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/share/upload/11737030/l8kj8i17bcecxzmnci0


----------



## istari9

Thanks Guys I needed a good read tonight!

Ray


----------



## Palladium

There are a number of factors that can render a gold-bearing ore refractory. Here is a listing.

*Type Causes of Refractory Characteristics in ores.*

1. Liberation Physical locking in silicates, sulphides, carbon, etc.
2. Occlusion Passivation due to formation of a chemical layer.
3. Chemistry Formation of auriferous compounds e.g. gold tellurides and aurostibnite.
4. Substitution Elemental replacement by gold in mineral lattice e.g. “solid solution” gold in pyritic ores.
5. Adsorption Adsorption of dissolved gold by ‘active’ carbonaceous material in the ore pulp.


----------



## Palladium

O.K. here is the NEW updated forum book # 2 with all the phpbb3 links updated. I have also included some new links and info.
This will replace the old #2 forum book with all the now dead links.

Enjoy.

8) 8) 8) 8)


----------



## Palladium

Here is a pdf that gustavus made of some of 4metals wisdom.

Enjoy  :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Number 2 in the Gustavus PDF series.

Thanks Gus.

Refiner's Wisdom :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

All about silver button batteries. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 

From our member Juan. Thanks juan.


----------



## aflacglobal

A fine piece of work by G.S.P.. 
Thanks Chris. 8) 8) :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5475

Re: Need fast help on PCB trimmings...experienced advice needed
by goldsilverpro on Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:36 am 

Circuit Board Trim and Types of Gold Plating

The board is made over-sized, in order to provide electrical connections to the areas of the board that require plating. When the plating has been done, the "picture frame" is trimmed off with a die.

We used to hire cheap labor to cut off the gold plated areas of the picture frames with tin snips - the good offset type - you can buy them left or right handed. This will reduce the volume and weight considerably and will make the pile much less bulky. I, myself, have filled many barrels with just the gold portions, using this method - it's not so bad - wear leather work gloves. We then stripped the gold in a cement mixer with cyanide/peroxide. Even if you don't process this yourself, by trimming it, you are putting it into a state that can be sampled and assayed, before having it refined. This is much harder to do with the picture frames, since many of them are different. You might also have a separate barrel for pale looking gold pieces.

If it is true immersion gold, it's worth about $.04 to $.05/square inch, max. Immersion gold stops plating when the part is coated. If it's electroplated or electroless gold, it will probably not be worth more than $.25 - $.30/square inch. Immersion plating can usually be removed with 1 or 2 medium pressure strokes of a pencil eraser - don't press hard - watch for the white nickel underneath, once the gold is removed. It will take maybe 8 or 10 strokes for the thicker hard gold. I would practice on fingers - they are usually worth about $.25 - $.30/sq.in. With practice and by doing comparisons, you can actually get quite good at estimating thicknesses using this method. You can also use it to determine whether an object is plated or is solid gold. In these modern times, gold is most always plated over nickel, whether it is on jewelry or circuit boards. Once the gold is off, the nickel is easy to see.

If immersion gold is present, you will probably also have some plated gold, somewhere on the same piece. On the scrap, next to where the fingers were, there should be a fully gold-plated "tie bar".

There are 3 basic types of plating on boards. The first two are used less often than the third, but they are getting more popular.

1) Immersion Gold - Basically, a cementation process. The nickel dissolves a bit and the gold sticks to the nickel. Once the part is completely coated, the solution can't get to the nickel. The thickness is limited, therefore, to about 4 or 5 microinches, which is worth about $.04 - $.05.sq.in. It is usually paler in color than (3).

2) Electroless Gold - This plates by chemical means, with no power supply needed. The bath contains a strong reducing agent, such as sodium borohydride, which reduces the gold onto the nickel. The longer it stays in the solution, the thicker it gets. When 30 micro" thick, it is usually less brilliant than (3).

3) Electroplated Alloyed Hard Gold - The most common. This is done from a bath that contains hardening alloy ingredients, such as cobalt or nickel. The result is a 99+% deposit that is very bright and shiny, yet has a deep golden color. It is most always used for areas that could expect wear, such as fingers. It is also used on many non-wear components, since it protects a little better than soft gold. It is usually from 12 - 30 micro" thick = $.11 - $.28/sq.in. 

I should also mention Electroplated Soft Pure (9999) Gold - This is used on parts that require heating during assembly, such as many CPU packages. If the gold wasn't pure, the heating would discolor the gold. The plating is about twice as thick as (3)

An experienced eye can estimate the thickness of gold plating, although you can sometimes get fooled. Less brilliant gold with a deep rich gold color, that only gold can give, is usually thick. Pale gold is usually thin. All gold plating has, at least, a little shine to it and there are several degrees of shine. The true color is obscured to the eye by this shine (brilliance). To take the "shine" out of the equation, lay a piece of white Kleenex over the plated area. Add drops of water until the plated area is covered. Make sure there are no wrinkles and the Kleenex lays flat. You can now see the "true color". Use this to compare, say, pale gold with finger gold. It should make it obvious.

The nickel underneath the gold is usually super shiny. When the gold is first applied, it takes on the shininess (or, in rare cases, lack of shininess) and color (paleness) of the nickel. As it gets thicker, it starts taking on the characteristics of the gold, itself. At about 10-15 micro", it is at the full deep gold color. However, the brightness of the the nickel still comes through. At some great thickness (200 micro"? - it actually depends on the type and condition of the bath), the gold will be duller because the nickel brightness is no longer affecting it. As they would say in the trade - Most types of gold plating baths don't "build brightness" - the brightness comes from the nickel.

Hope this helps. Chris

My method and Catfish's method, of calculating the gold value of plated objects, only vary by about 1.5%. Pretty close. 

I hope that I don't confuse everyone but, I would like to alter my method a little bit. I think that my new method will make it easier to understand how it works. Here's the whole thing. The only change is in (3), below. 

Why would you want to go through this rigmarole? I use it mainly for buying and selling, when I don't have an assay. I've used it a lot to estimate the value of stuff on Ebay. When dealing scrap, knowledge is king. Although the method is only ballpark, it's better than having no idea of the value. 

(1) Make measurements and calculate the total gold plated surface area. You want to know how many square inches or, how many square centimeters of surface you have. You need to break the plated part down into it's geometric shapes. 

Fingers are easy because they are rectangles. You just measure the width and length of one finger, multiply these together, and multiply this answer times the total number of fingers. If you have 50 sets of identical fingers, multiply that answer times 50. All this gives the total surface area on these particular 50 sets of identical fingers. For a round thin pin, you multiply the diameter times pi (3.1416) times the length. For a thick round pin, you also have to calculate the area of the end. For a square thin pin, multiply the width of one side times 4 times the length. 

Type in - surface area formulas - in Google. Some sites will give drawings of the different geometric shapes and their surface area formulas. I will look for a good one and post it in the Glossary section. 

You can measure in several different ways. The cheapest way is to use a triangle shaped plastic architect's ruler. You can get plenty of accuracy using one of these rulers. Get the one that measures in tenths of an inch and learn to estimate reading it in between the lines (marks). Don't ever measure in 1/16ths, 1/8ths, etc. This would make the calculations much more complicated. For small measurements, you can place the ruler on the object and use something like a 10X eye loupe to read it. 

My favorite is a cheap set of calipers that measures in a decimal part of an inch and, not in 1/16", 1/32", etc. If you can pay more, you can get one that has a dial for the last digit. The cheaper ones have a vernier and that is a little more difficult to get used to. 

Probably, the best is a comparator. This is an eye loupe that has a scale built into it. You can get a variety of screw-on scales for it. 

You could use a micrometer but, they are cumbersome. 

(2) Estimate the gold plating thickness. This may be the most important factor. You have to have an idea of how much is needed for different types of parts. Gold plating is measured in millionths of an inch. Another name for this is microinches. I will refer to them as micro". First of all, you must understand that this is a pure educated guess. You must understand that the thickness of gold plating has changed over the years. Also, the plating on such things as fingers or pins can run all over the map. I have seen fingers that ran from 15 micro" to 80 micro". It depends on the usage requirements and which company made the parts. 

On the average, Catfish has been using 30 micro", with very good success, for things that plug into other things, whether male or female, or for those things that rub against other things, such as those tiny gold plated balls in small multi-switches. This includes such things as gold plated connector pins and many fingers. This has also been pretty well confirmed by lazersteve's yields. 

For things that have to be heated, in order to solder an integrated circuit (chip, die) to a package, you can figure 50 (40 to 60) micro". This includes many CPU's, sidebraze IC's, etc. It also includes hybrid packages (microwave, etc) that often contain hybrid circuits. The gold thickness on all these types of packages have run quite consistent over the years, unlike fingers. 

For everthing else, you are on your own. There are hints, however. For things that just sit there, on run-of-the-mill electronic equipment, figure 15-20 micro". The gold is there only for mild corrosion protection. It doesn't need wear resistance. If you run across some rare, high tech, military part that has to withstand high current flow or a highly corrosive environment, the thickness could be out of sight. Most common modern items run between 12 micro" to 35 micro". 

Two ways to really know the real gold thickness, on specific parts, is to assay them or to refine them (the whole batch or, just a few of them, as a sample). You can then measure and calculate the surface area. From this, you can calculate the gold thickness. There are specific types of equipment that measure plating thickness. The Microderm and Betascope utilize radioactive isotopes to do this. The Kocour machine actually dissolves a small spot of the plating. There is also X-ray thickness measuring equipment. Most all of these need standards in order to set them up. You can also plate backup nickel on the gold plate, make a metallurgical mount, polish and etch it, and measure the thickness using a metallurgical microscope. I have lots of experience using all of the methods and equipment (except for x-ray) covered in this paragraph. If you want more info on any of these, let me know. 

A special category is gold brazes. They probably run from 500 to 1000 micro" thick. A 80/20, gold/tin braze is used around the edge on gold plated lids used to seal IC packages, such as some CPU's, side braze packages, or all-gold plated hybrid packages. Also, on many of these same parts, a 96/4 (I think), gold/silicon braze is used to attach the chip. 

The mil specs and other official thickness charts, concerning electronic parts, aren't that helpful unless you know what thickness Class Number was called out when that exact part was manufactured. If you assayed parts, you could probably get some correlation between the data, however. The official decorative gold plating charts are a little more helpful, since some plated jewelry is marked. If you see a marking of H.G.E., e.g., you know it should be 100 micro" thick, when new. 

(3) Calculate the gold plating value. 

First, for us in the US, who have measured things in square inches. 
(a) Get the spot market price of gold, in dollars per troy ounce. Divide this number by 100,000 (ten thousand) on the calculator (Note: This is the only change I made in my method). This gives the dollar value of one square inch of gold plating, one micro" thick. Let this sink in your brain. For example, if the gold price were $660 per tr.oz., the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, would be 660 divided by 100,000 or, $.066. Please note that this was a little discovery of mine and you won't find it anywhere else. I just noticed that, when I calculated the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, using the density of gold, etc., it just happened to be within 1.5% of dividing the spot price by 100,000. Pure coincidence. 

(b) Multiply this times the gold thickness in micro" and multiply this times the number of square inches you have. 

Dollar value of gold plating = Spot price divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square inches. 

Example: The gold spot is $650. You have 9.58 square inches of gold plate that you estimate to be 30 micro" thick. 
650 divided by 100,000 X 9.58 X 30 = $1.87. 

For those measuring in centimeters and calculating area in square centimeters: 

Spot price in US dollars divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square centimeters divided by 6.452. 

You'll have to convert other currency values on your own. 

Play with this. It's easier than I've made it sound. As you probably know by now, I'm a detail guy. Just remember it's limitations. At best, it's a estimate, which will often (but, not always) be a bit on the low side. 

Chris 

Extra links http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=701&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=2235&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Here's another great one by G.S.P. 


Engineering Applications 
Class 00 20 micro inches 
Class 0 30 micro inches 
Class 1 50 micro inches 
Class 2 100 micro inches 
Class 3 200 micro inches 

Military specifications: 
Additional classes 

Class 4 300 micro inches 
Class 5 500 micro inches 
Class 6 1500 micro inches 
The formula for determining content 

ESTIMATING GOLD PLATING AND CONTENT 
My method and Catfish’s method, of calculating the gold value of plated objects, only vary by 
about 1.5%. Pretty close. 
I hope that I don’t confuse everyone but, I would like to alter my method a little bit. I think 
that my new method will make it easier to understand how it works. Here’s the whole thing. 
The only change is in (3), below. 
Why would you want to go through this rigmarole? I use it mainly for buying and selling, when 
I don’t have an assay. I’ve used it a lot to estimate the value of stuff on Ebay. When dealing 
scrap, knowledge is king. Although the method is only ballpark, it’s better than having no idea 
of the value. 
(1) Make measurements and calculate the total gold plated surface area. You want to 
know how many square inches or, how many square centimeters of surface you have. You 
need to break the plated part down into it’s geometric shapes. 
Fingers are easy because they are rectangles. You just measure the width and length of one 
finger, multiply these together, and multiply this answer times the total number of fingers. If 
you have 50 sets of identical fingers, multiply that answer times 50. All this gives the total 
surface area on these particular 50 sets of identical fingers. For a round thin pin, you multiply 
the diameter times pi (3.1416) times the length. For a thick round pin, you also have to 
calculate the area of the end. For a square thin pin, multiply the width of one side times 4 
times the length. 
Type in - surface area formulas - in Google. Some sites will give drawings of the different 
geometric shapes and their surface area formulas. I will look for a good one and post it in the 
Glossary section. 
You can measure in several different ways. The cheapest way is to use a triangle shaped 
plastic architect’s ruler. You can get plenty of accuracy using one of these rulers. Get the one 
that measures in tenths of an inch and learn to estimate reading it in between the lines 
(marks). Don’t ever measure in 1/16ths, 1/8ths, etc. This would make the calculations much 
more complicated. For small measurements, you can place the ruler on the object and use 
something like a 10X eye loupe to read it. 
My favorite is a cheap set of calipers that measures in a decimal part of an inch and, not in 
1/16", 1/32", etc. If you can pay more, you can get one that has a dial for the last digit. The 
cheaper ones have a vernier and that is a little more difficult to get used to. 
Probably, the best is a comparator. This is an eye loupe that has a scale built into it. You can 
get a variety of screw-on scales for it. 
You could use a micrometer but, they are cumbersome. 
(2) Estimate the gold plating thickness. This may be the most important factor. You have 
to have an idea of how much is needed for different types of parts. Gold plating is measured in 
millionths of an inch. Another name for this is microinches. I will refer to them as micro". First 
of all, you must understand that this is a pure educated guess. You must understand that the 
thickness of gold plating has changed over the years. Also, the plating on such things as 
fingers or pins can run all over the map. I have seen fingers that ran from 15 micro" to 80 
micro". It depends on the usage requirements and which company made the parts. 
On the average, Catfish has been using 30 micro", with very good success, for things that plug 
into other things, whether male or female, or for those things that rub against other things, 
such as those tiny gold plated balls in small multi-switches. This includes such things as gold 
plated connector pins and many fingers. This has also been pretty well confirmed by 
41 
lazersteve’s yields. 
For things that have to be heated, in order to solder an integrated circuit (chip, die) to a 
package, you can figure 50 (40 to 60) micro". This includes many CPU’s, sidebraze IC’s, etc. It 
also includes hybrid packages (microwave, etc) that often contain hybrid circuits. The gold 
thickness on all these types of packages have run quite consistent over the years, unlike 
fingers. 
For everthing else, you are on your own. There are hints, however. For things that just sit 
there, on run-of-the-mill electronic equipment, figure 15-20 micro". The gold is there only for 
mild corrosion protection. It doesn’t need wear resistance. If you run across some rare, high 
tech, military part that has to withstand high current flow or a highly corrosive environment, 
the thickness could be out of sight. Most common modern items run between 12 micro" to 35 
micro". 
Two ways to really know the real gold thickness, on specific parts, is to assay them or to 
refine them (the whole batch or, just a few of them, as a sample). You can then measure and 
calculate the surface area. From this, you can calculate the gold thickness. There are specific 
types of equipment that measure plating thickness. The Microderm and Betascope utilize 
radioactive isotopes to do this. The Kocour machine actually dissolves a small spot of the 
plating. There is also X-ray thickness measuring equipment. Most all of these need standards 
in order to set them up. You can also plate backup nickel on the gold plate, make a 
metallurgical mount, polish and etch it, and measure the thickness using a metallurgical 
microscope. I have lots of experience using all of the methods and equipment (except for xray) 
covered in this paragraph. If you want more info on any of these, let me know. 
A special category is gold brazes. They probably run from 500 to 1000 micro" thick. A 80/20, 
gold/tin braze is used around the edge on gold plated lids used to seal IC packages, such as 
some CPU’s, side braze packages, or all-gold plated hybrid packages. Also, on many of these 
same parts, a 96/4 (I think), gold/silicon braze is used to attach the chip. 
The mil specs and other official thickness charts, concerning electronic parts, aren’t that 
helpful unless you know what thickness Class Number was called out when that exact part was 
manufactured. If you assayed parts, you could probably get some correlation between the 
data, however. The official decorative gold plating charts are a little more helpful, since some 
plated jewelry is marked. If you see a marking of H.G.E., e.g., you know it should be 100 
micro" thick, when new. 
(3) Calculate the gold plating value. 
First, for us in the US, who have measured things in square inches. 
(a) Get the spot market price of gold, in dollars per troy ounce. Divide this number by 100,000 
(one hundred thousand) on the calculator (Note: This is the only change I made in my method). This 
gives the dollar value of one square inch of gold plating, one micro" thick. Let this sink in your 
brain. For example, if the gold price were $660 per tr.oz., the value of one square inch of one 
micro" thick gold, would be 660 divided by 10000 or, $.0066. Please note that this was a little 
discovery of mine and you won’t find it anywhere else. I just noticed that, when I calculated 
the value of one square inch of one micro" thick gold, using the density of gold, etc., it just 
happened to be within 1.5% of dividing the spot price by 100,000. Pure coincidence. 
(b) Multiply this times the gold thickness in micro" and multiply this times the number of 
square inches you have. 
Dollar value of gold plating = Spot price divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in 
square inches. 
Example: The gold spot is $650. You have 9.58 square inches of gold plate that you estimate 
to be 30 micro" thick. 
650 divided by 100,000 X 9.58 X 30 = $1.87. 

For those measuring in centimeters and calculating area in square centimeters: 
Spot price in US dollars divided by 100,000 X thickness in micro" X area in square centimeters 
divided by 6.452. 
You’ll have to convert other currency values on your own. 
Play with this. It’s easier than I’ve made it sound. As you probably know by now, I’m a detail 
guy. Just remember it’s limitations. At best, it’s a estimate, which will often (but, not always) 
be a bit on the low side. 
Chris


----------



## aflacglobal

The Pawnbrokers Guide to Testing Metals
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


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## aflacglobal

Borax replacing mercury in small-scale mining :arrow: :arrow:


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## aflacglobal

From Lou HF fun. :arrow:


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## butcher

Aflac, I just wanted to say thanks for all you do here.


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## aflacglobal

butcher said:


> Aflac, I just wanted to say thanks for all you do here.



Thanks Butcher.

I still have several people who want to know how the Barrick gold thing went. To make a long story short i had to let it go because of my health problems last year. But, I've still got the idea and can't let it go to waste. I've talked to a couple of people from Newmont, but haven't really made any headway. I've got other cats to skin right now. :shock: :shock: :shock: Meow.

Anyway i've got some protection for my idea and thought i'd let it out there to let everyone look at it and see what you think.

Remember this is only a theory, I need to do some experimenting to test it. Maybe someone will do it that has the time to try. 
See what you think. Promote it if you want to. The agent to get me in gets 25 % of the company in stock. If it works it could be worth 10's of Millions


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## aflacglobal

Electrorefining Def. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## aflacglobal

I've been uploading Gold refining information to a central location on the web so it can be accessed from one point for all. Here is the location for everyone to find them. There's some dam good information in there. If you have something you would like to add just let me know and i'll add it.

Happy reading.  :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/756178-http-goldrefiningforum-com


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## aflacglobal

XRF Testing :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Another great post by G.S.P. :arrow: 

*Yellow Dental Gold.*

INQUART

(1) Weigh the metal
(2) Inquart with silver or copper. First, though, calculate the copper or silver you need to
end up with 25% gold. Make sure the molten alloy is well mixed before shotting. Stir with a
carbon or quartz stirring rod (jewelry supplies).
DISSOLVE THE COPPER, SILVER, ETC. IN NITRIC
(3) Estimate the amount of nitric nedded to dissolve the Ag. One gram of copper needs
about 4.2 mLs of concentrated nitric. A gram of silver will need 1.2 mLs.
(4) Put the metal into the Pyrex dissolving container. You could use plastic and no heat
but, it’s slower. For small amounts, I prefer glass beakers so, I can heat them.
(5) Cover the metal with distilled water, plus about 1/4".
(6) Heat the solution until you first see whisps of steam coming off. I like the hot plate
about medium. Medium low for very small amounts
(7) Measure out the calculated total amount nitric you'll need.
(8 ) Dissolve the Ag, Cu, etc., with nitric. Add about 5 mL of straight nitric. You will
immediately get action. It will shortly (few minutes) slow down. Give it a gentle but complete
stir. It will flare up a little bit. Let it relax. Add some more nitric. When it’s finished, add some
more. Repeat until all the the Ag, etc., is dissolved and you only have gold powder. Test this
by dragging the powder to the side of the beaker and looking at it. You can, also, mash
around with a stir rod, to check for lumps. You may need about 10%, or so, extra nitric. Try
not to use too much. This whole thing should take 15 to 30 minutes. The reason to start with
only 5 mL, is to prevent it from foaming over. The solution will get quite hot from the
dissolving and, you have to be careful of instant foamovers. Towards the end, you can
progressively add more nitric at one time. But, never add more until the last addition has died
down.
A good reason for working with heat is to eliminate foamovers. When you add a little nitric to
a cold solution, it, at first, won’t do much. You add a little more and, maybe, a little more. As
you’ve been doing this, the dissolving action is heating the solution up, slowly. When it
reaches a critical temp., it suddenly all works at the same time and, boils the solution over.
Don’t ask me how I know this. Most boilovers are caused by working with cold solutions or, by
dumping all the acid in at the same time.
You will probably need more water, as you go, to keep the metal salts from crystallizing. At
the end, you want to end up with 50% water. Stir.
(9) Allow to cool and settle over overnight. I like to prop a piece of wood under it, so the
solids settle to one corner.
Note: Summary of what we have to this point. It’s good to figure out what is where, no
matter what you’re working on..
----(a) In the solution, we have all of the silver, palladium, and all the base metals. If we used
silver to inquart, instead of copper, we will also have some platinum in the solution.
----(b) In the solids, sitting in the solution, there is most or all of the platinum and all of the
gold and, some dirt.
(10) Separate the solids from the liquid. You can filter and rinse it or you can pour off the
solution with several rinses - pour off - rinse - settle - pour off - repeat. For the best chance at
good final purity, filter and rinse well.

DISSOLVE THE GOLD AND PLATINUM IN AQUA REGIA
(11) Put clean solids in beaker.
[/b](12) Cover solids with the muriatic or hydrochloric.[/b] You should calculate how much HCl
you need and add about 20%. For one ounce of gold, figure about 120 mL of HCl. It’s very
important to have extra HCl. But, it’s wasteful and more cumbersome to add way too much.
(13) Heat on medium until you see whisps of steam
(14) Calculate and measure out how much nitric you'll need Figure about 20-25 mL,
per ounce of gold. Measure on the low side. The goal is to never add any more nitric than is
necessary to dissolve the gold and platinum powder.
(15) Add not over 5 mL of nitric Action will start immediately. When it dies down, stir it
and add some more nitric.
(16) Repeat adding nitric until the gold/platinum powder has dissolved. Add - wait
until reaction slows - stir - repeat. This may or may not take all the nitric. Especially towards
the end, allow the action to completely stop before adding more nitric.
Note: The magic of adding a little too much HCl and just enough HNO3 is that, when you
finish, there will be none, or very little, extra nitric in the solution. Thus, boiling down or,
adding urea, isn’t necessary. The first addition of SMB or FeSO4 will start dropping gold!!! If,
you used too much nitric, use urea, that you’ve dissolved in water, until you get a pH of one.
IMPORTANT: Gold in powder dissolves rapidly. If you add too much nitric, the solution can
foam over, quicker than you can say Jack Spratt.
The depth of the solution will make a difference in the speed of the dissolving. The deeper it
is, the slower things go. The acid is way up here and the solids are way down there. For
maximum speed, use a container that will keep the acid under about 3" deep.
To kill or slow down foamovers, buy a small container of Anti-Foam located on the same rack
as carpet cleaner rentals in the supermarket. Add 1" of the concentrate to a spray bottle and
fill it up with water. Spray a little on the climbing foam. Often, it stops the foam. Sometimes,
especially when real hot, it only slows it down. Believe it or not, just water in a misty spray
bottle does a pretty good job on foam. Another weird way to to put a little oil on you fingertip
and wipe it around the top edge on the dissolving container. I don’t like oil in the solution. It
tracks over to the next processes. I only use it rarely with large amounts of acid when no
values are in the solution.
(17) Heat more strongly at the end but, don't boil. Platinum dissolves a little slow and
needs some heat.
(18 ) Check to see if everything's dissolved. Tilt the beaker, stir the solution, let it settle
a bit, and, using good light, look at the settled solids, if there are any. If the container is
small, pick it up and look at the bottom.
(19) If needed, add more nitric. Heat it up and add only 2 or 3 mLs at a time. Let it settle
totally down and stir before adding. Keep checking for solids. Don’t add too much.
FILTER AND RINSE
(20) Add 3 times water and let it cool and let the dirt settle.
(21) Filter Carefully pour the solution into the filter. Keep the solids in the beaker. When all
the solution has drained through, rinse the solids (dirt) into the same filter. If things slow
down, get a fresh filter.

(22) Rinse the filter well.
DROP THE GOLD
(23) Choose a precipitant. There’s a long list of things you could use: Ferrous Sulfate; SO2
gas; Sodium Sulfite; Sodium Metabisulfite; Sodium Bisulfite; Oxalic acid; Sodium Nitrite;
Hydroquinone; Metol; Etc. The last 4 are only used in special situations. For this job, I should
(but, probably wouldn’t) first use green Ferrous Sulfate (FeSO4 - Copperas). It will drop the
gold, without dropping the platinum group, better than any other precipitant. I could use a
sulfite first and then melt, shot, re-dissolve, and final drop with ferrous sulfate.
(24)Drop the gold To drop with one of the 3 sulfites, put a couple of spoonfuls in a one cup
Pyrex measuring cup. Fill with hot water and stir until most is dissolved. Pour some of the
liquid into the solution, let it react, and stir. If all of the nitric is gone, you should see brown
powder forming in the solution. If there is still nitric, the sulfite will react with it before you
start dropping gold. Sometimes, there is a false indication of gold dropping. The gold drops
locally, where you added the sulfite but, when you stir it, the gold re-dissolves.
At some point, all the gold has dropped out. It shouldn’t take much sulfite, if all the nitric was
gone. Also, with no nitric, you should get no boilovers. Maybe, use about ounce for ounce,
with gold or, a little more. There are some visual indications of this. Without the presence of
platinum group, the foam (when stirring) will get white and the yellow color will disappear.
With platinum, whose solution is also yellow, this is harder to see. Test the solution, with
stannous chloride, for the presence of gold. Add a little more sulfite, stir, and test. Repeat
until the gold is out.
(25) Filter, leach and rinse the gold. This has been a controversial subject between Harold
and I. I would probably settle first, then, - (a) Filter the tops - (b) Filter the gold in the same
filter - (c) Rinse 5 times with very hot water - (d) Remove and boil in HCl - (e) Filter and hot
rinse 5 times - (f) Check for the presence of chlorides coming out of the filter, with a drop of
silver nitrate made from a little silver dissolved in a little nitric/distilled water - (g) Rinse until
no more chlorides - (h) Mix up enough 25% nitric, diluted with hot water, to pretty well fill up
the filter. With a vacuum filter, shut it off and bleed the vacuum, first. The slower it drains
through, the better. - (i) When it is drained, rinse 5 times with hot distilled water. - (j) Add
50/50 household ammonia, cut with hot water, and put it in the filter. When it has drained
through, rinse 5 times with hot water. (k) Rinse 5 times with hot distilled water.
(26) Dry the gold and melt it. Look for instructions on the forum. Note: if the gold powder
looks grayish, it has platinum in it.
(27) Rework dirty gold If the melt, the ingot, or the powder looks dirty, it is dirty. Pt makes
dirty looking powder and ingots. Sometimes, the Pt.Gp. produces a fern-like pattern on the
gold ingot. Always melt and shot the powder before re-dissolving in aqua regia. Use a different
precipitant. Learn to use ferrous sulfate.
GRAND SUMMARY
---In the filter papers, there is likely some precious metals. If you can, keep the gold, silver,
and Pt group all separate. Even if the platinum group filters have gold, keep them in the Pt.
group pile. You can burn the filters or, you can add some of the best aqua regia filters to the
next batch, paper and all. Don’t add too many papers, unless you have a lot of solution. The
hot acid pulps the paper and aids in filtering. Commercial paper pulp can be purchased for use
as a lab filter-aid.
---The spent aqua regia solution. It contains platinum, hydrochloric acid, nitrates,
chlorides, sodium, and sulfite. You could drop the platinum out as a black powder with copper
buss bars (A trick. If it isn’t cementing onto the copper, add a small shot of nitric and stir it
in). Or, you could put it into Hoke’s stockpot.
---The nitric solution It contains silver, palladium, some of the platinum, copper, zinc, and
nitrates. How do you separate the silver from the platinum and palladium? Good question. You
could drop the silver, Pt, and Pd, all together, using copper bussbar. You could then melt and
run the silver through a silver cell. The platinum doesn’t dissolve and stays in the cell’s filter
cloth. The palladium dissolves and eventually contaminates the silver cell solution. Another
way would be to try and drop out the Pt.Gp., selectively, using something like hydrazine
sulfate at a certain pH. Maybe, sodium borohydride would drop the silver without dropping the
Pt and Pd. Anyone have any other ideas?
Chris


----------



## butcher

Wow Aflac, lichtenberg effect in mining, that is extremely interesting,have you done any expieriments with the impure ore? and would the metals in the ore try and grow crystal trees? how good of a capacitor does the impure rock make? the theory I understand from studiing electronics as this is one thing that can destroy devices, or capacitor and Zener Diode theory, this seems extremely interesting but way above my head, be fun to play with, Hmm can we make the gold in the ore grow a tree and charge it and shatter it to get to our new formed gold vein? WOW :shock:


----------



## Palladium

The energy comes from the over voltage potential across two plates that distort the lattice because of the voltage pressure until the electrons are ripped free of their orbits. Like a capacitor when exposed to high voltage the dielectric ruptures conducting electricity. Remember when moving electrons it's the voltage potential that determines the electron speed not the amperage. Amperage is the consumption of electrons and voltage is the speed at which they are delivered or moved. If you placed the sio2 between to plates that are electrically charged the electron cloud becomes distorted, stressing the chemical bonds that hold the lattice framework of the crystal together. This is what gives the crystals their adhesion on an atomic scale. The silver or gold or any metal for that fact will act as an inductor when placed in an electric field and stressed. The theory of induction !!

So as the quartz rock is stressed on an atomic scale these electrons all stress to go in the same direction the electron in the metal will also be polarized an all the electrons will run to on end of the metal because the electrons in a metal are arranged so that electrons can move freely. The electrons in the quartz which is a dielectric do not move electrons easily so the electrons all stretch to move in that direction until the pressure ( voltage ) overcomes the electron bonds and allows the electron to jump energy bands and become conductive. When this happens you have millions of electrons moving in one direction. As they bump into other electrons they create an avalanche effect. As the electrons move thru the material they also create electron holes.

These holes have an affinity to attract another electron. The pressure that removed that electron and left the hole is just as great to attract an electron to fill that gap once the field is removed. As the electrons rush past the inductors the localized field effect causes the metals to become inductors and stretch. Like waving two magnets past each other. This will cause the materials to flex and stretch within the quartz matrix. You also have localized heating effect that can reach very high temperatures. You have gas pockets or inclusions that will cause very high gas expansion it a very short time. You have a shifting of the lattice frame work on an atomic scale which should cause a weakening in the overall rock structure. You should have oxidation of minerals.

All mater can be expressed with an electrical equation. Everything in the universe runs or is governed by electrical principals from a physics stand point. Everything is about an exchange of energy. Be it gravitational, nuclear, the way you see, feel, exist, heat, cold, light, you name it. Without chemical actions the world would cease to exist. It's all raw energy. Just different uses. 

Theirs so much more. Will it work ????? Hummmm, who knows. But i can guarantee you this. You move enough electrons thru a material and it destroys the material. Something is going to happen. It's all a Theory, but it has some good information to back it up. The results would be interesting to say the least. It's worth a look. Not only could the principle be applied to precious metals but all types of mineral extraction. They use EMP pulses to free diamonds locked in rocks so as not to damage them.


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## Palladium

Stripping solder mask :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Here is a doc. i put together for questions about the Acid/Peroxide method.
I'm going to try and make these for all the systems so we don't have to answer the questions over and over.
Acid/Clorox Is next in the series

Enjoy !!! :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Here is a preview of Forum Book # 3.
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Estimating Gold Plating Thickness and Contents :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

HOW TO MAKE NITRIC ACID :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

PROCESSING YELLOW DENTAL GOLD :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

How to produce concentrated sulfuric acid from battery acid. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## butcher

this has been one busy cat, :lol:


----------



## Palladium

ACID WASHING PROCEDURES :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Black Sands by Rick :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5588&p=48013#p48013


There are 3 minerals that make up the bulk of all black sands. Magnetite Fe Fe2 O4, Hematite Fe2 O3, 
and Ilmenite Fe Ti O3. Magnetite & Hematite form during the magmatic stage as well as during hydrothermal, and metamorphic processes. Ilmenite forms during the magmatic stage, as well as during metamorphic processes. 

Magnetite is associated with Andradite Garnet, Epidote, and Apatite. It sometimes contains small amounts of Manganese, Nickel, Chromium, Titanium, Vanadium and Phosphorus. It is a common constituent in many igneous rocks, including Diorite, Gabbro, Monzonite, and Nepheline Syenite. It occurs more specifically associated with Hedenbergite and Andradite in Hornfels; With Almandine, Talc, and Andradite in Talc Schist; With Calcite, Andradite, and Chlorite in Skarn; and with Barite, & Fluorite in Hydrothermal Replacement Deposits.

Hematite occurs with Biotite, Albite, and Barite in Carbonatites; with Diopside & Epidote in Hornfels; With Quartz & Siderite in Mesothermal & Epithermal veins; with Fluorite, Barite and Calcite in Lode and Disseminated Replacement Deposits.

Ilmenite occurs with Magnetite, Labradorite, and Hornblende in Gabbro. Also occurs in Pegmatites, Nepheline Syenites, Gneiss, Chlorite Schist, and Diorite.

The reason that Gold is associated with these minerals is that they have mutual emplacement as minerals created by hydrothermal processes within fractures of overlying rock that has been intruded by magma, usually of Granitic composition. Ground Water at great temperature and pressure mixes with Sulfur and Chlorine from the magma to produce solutions that dissolve all minerals, even Quartz, if Fluorine is present within the gasses that mix with the water. As this super heated solution makes its way toward the surface through cracks, fractures, and spaces between the grains of overlying rock, the solution begins to cool, and pressure is relieved. As this begins to happen, the dissolved minerals begin to drop out of solution by depositing on the cooler surface of the surrounding rock through which this solution is flowing. Deposition takes place in accordance to each minerals solidifying temperature, and solubility within the solution. This is the process that produces Mesothermal, and Epithermal vein systems, which in turn are the same vein systems that we all strive to find when hunting Gold, Silver, and other economically valuable concentrations of metallic ores. To put all this in a simple statement, the process that creates concentrations of Gold and Silver is the same process that creates the black sand minerals, and that is why they often contain Precious Metals. They formed together at the same time, from the same solution, in the same place. I hope that this has been interesting, informative, and helpful to you, and all who read it. I look forward to further questions. Sincerely; Rick...


----------



## Gold

GOLD COIN MINTING PROCESS :arrow:


----------



## Gold

HOW TO MAKE GOLD SHOT :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Interesting facts about Activated Carbon and Adsorption. 

Comparison of Particle Sizes 
1-inch ball 25.4 mm (millimeters) = 25,400 um or μm or “microns” (micro-meters) 
pollen 10 - 100 microns 
smallest item visible to naked eye 40 microns 
fog droplet 2 - 50 microns 
“dirt” 40+ microns 
silt and clay ½ - 20 microns 
pathogenic protozoan cysts 3 - 20 microns 
Cryptosporidium oocysts 3 - 7 microns 
Cyclospora cysts 8 - 10 microns 
Giardia cysts 8 - 12 microns 
Entamoeba cysts 12 - 20 microns 
red blood cells 7 ½ microns 
most bacteria and algae ½ - 5 microns 
“turbidity” 0.1 - 5 microns 
colloids 0.1 - 5 microns 
wavelengths of visible light 0.40 (blue) – 0.77 (red) microns = 400 (blue) – 770 (red) nm (nanometers) 
cigarette smoke 10 – 1000 nm 
viruses 10 – 250 nm 
protein molecules 2 – 50 nm 
individual atoms 0.05 – 0.25 nm 



Adsorption: Not to be confused with absorption (which is what a sponge does), adsorption is the attraction of tiny particles or dissolved molecules to a solid surface and holding them there by weak intermolecular forces. It is similar in concept to magnetism and the attraction due to static electricity, but much weaker. In theory, every atom in the universe has some degree of affinity for every other atom in the universe, just like gravity. But, just as gravity requires enormous masses like planets and stars to show its effects, adsorption requires extremely tiny distances to show its effects. In adsorption, the particle in question is randomly bounced around the solution by collisions with water molecules and other molecules in the water. (This is called Brownian motion. 

It is estimated that an atom or molecule in water is involved in a million-billiontrillion or 1027 collisions with other atoms or molecules every second. This is part of the definition of temperature.) Eventually, by chance, it will be bounced so close to the surface of a wall or another larger particle that there are very few water molecules separating it from the surface. When that happens, those few molecules produce only a few collisions from that side, and the particle is overwhelmed by collisions from the other sides and tends to become “plastered” to the surface by a continual barrage of collisions from the solution. This is the “physical” half of adsorption. The “chemical” half occurs if there is any chemical affinity between the particle and the material of the surface. If there is, the particle will become attached (adsorbed) and stay there; if not, it will bounce off right away or just diffuse away, later. 

The adsorptive forces (called van der Waals or London forces) are so weak that adsorbed substances can become desorbed rather easily—by adding certain acids, by heating the system, or by merely removing the contaminant from the influent water. For example, activated carbon filters or ion exchange beds nearing exhaustion are subject to desorption if the water quality suddenly changes for the better. That shows that these treatment techniques are equilibrium (balance) phenomena in which sorption and desorption both occur and achieve an average condition, like a well-matched tug-of-war. 

Since adsorption requires a surface, commercial adsorbent materials have very large surface areas and are exemplified by activated carbon, activated alumina, and fine powders such as baking soda. But many substances are so very insoluble or otherwise so readily adsorbable that even small surface areas can make a big difference. For example, most heavy metal ions (lead, mercury, copper, cadmium, silver, chromium) adsorb so strongly to the walls of both glass and plastic sample bottles that more than half of the total contamination can be missed in an analysis if the sample bottles are not treated with nitric acid first, to cause desorption. Similarly, many chlorinated hydrocarbons like the polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) adsorb so readily to both metal and plastic plumbing and filter materials that even coarse prefilters remove them very well. 

The adsorption and reduction of disinfectant chlorine by activated carbon is a special case. Activated carbon is a mild reducing agent and chlorine is a strong oxidizing agent, so after chlorine becomes adsorbed, it then actually reacts with the carbon. The chlorine is reduced to chloride ion (as in table salt and sea water), one atom of carbon is oxidized to carbon dioxide, and both are released to the solution (desorbed). Meanwhile, most of the spots on the activated carbon where all this took place become “auto-regenerated” back to their original, like new 
condition, ready to adsorb again. For free available chlorine (FAC), this 
takes only about fifteen minutes, which means that a small amount of carbon can achieve an acceptable steady-state condition if the flow rate is slow or intermittent. For “combined chlorine” (monochloramine), the reaction is much slower, and more carbon or more contact time is needed to achieve equivalent reductions. The chemical reactions between activated carbon’s “active sites” (C*) and these forms of chlorine are shown below. Note that any surface oxides on the carbon are recycled when reacted with monochloramine, while they are oxidized to CO2 and lost when reacted with free chlorine. 

Free Chlorine 
Cl2 + H2O ⇔ HOCl + H+ + Cl − (forming “aqueous chlorine”) 
C* + 2Cl2 + 2H2O ⇒ C*O2 + 4H+ + 4Cl− (the overall reaction) 
C* + HOCl ⇒ C*O + H+ + Cl− 
C*O + HOCl ⇒ C*O2 + H+ + Cl− 

Combined Chlorine: Monochloramine 
C* + NH2Cl + H2O ⇒ C*O + NH3 + H+ + Cl− 
C*O + 2NH2Cl ⇒ C* + N2 + H2O + 2H+ + 2Cl− 
Finally, most dissolved/suspended particles and molecules in drinking water that are highly adsorbable to something usually do become adsorbed to a larger particle before reaching the point of use. Thus, adsorbable contaminants can often be removed by mechanical fine-filtration because the contaminant in question is already adsorbed to a larger particle. If you remove the particle, you remove the adsorbed contaminants along with it. This commonly applies to heavy metal ions, many pesticides, other chlorinated hydrocarbons, viruses, and 
asbestos fibers. About Activated Carbon: Granular activated carbon (GAC) and powdered activated carbon (PAC) are the predominant adsorbents used in our industry. 

They can be made from nearly anything organic: coal, petroleum, wood, coconut shells, peach pits, ion exchange resin beads, fabrics, even waste plastics. The starting material is first charred—heated without air or oxygen, so it doesn’t burn up. Everything that can be vaporized or melted bubbles out as tar or pitch, leaving many holes and channels. Then the charred material is heated further, to above 1000陣C (hot enough to melt aluminum and lead), with the introduction of live steam or other activating chemicals. The superheated water vapor is extremely corrosive, etching more holes and extending channels to an amazing degree. Metallic impurities are preferentially attacked and washed out, resulting 
in a significant purification of the original material. 

However, the heat of activation does more than extend holes and channels and increase the surface area of carbon; it also changes the fundamental crystal form from amorphous “carbon black” to the perfect crystalline array of graphite plates. The carbon atoms in graphite are arranged in sheets or plates of interlocking six-atom rings that look like slices through a honeycomb. Such a perfect arrange-ment causes the London forces to focus and concentrate at the surface, making activated carbon the best (strongest and most general) adsorbent known. 
After activation, the carbon may be treated further to produce specific chemical qualities on the surface. For example, an acidic environment produces carbon with maximum capacity for heavy metals but minimal capacity for chlorinated organics, while an alkaline environment does the opposite. Most grades used in our industry are made for organic adsorption. When activation is complete, the carbon is a delicate, airy material that is so full of holes, it can barely hold together. It is crushed to a powder, and then proprietary binders are added to form granules of the desired size. The final product has a total internal and external surface area of more than 1000 square meters per gram, or half a 
football field inside a piece the size of a pea. 

Activated carbon adsorption is useful because the material has strong chemical affinities for several important classes of contaminants that are common in water. These are: 

1. Disinfectant chlorine: “Free available chlorine” (FAC) is readily 
adsorbed, then chemically reduced, and finally desorbed as chloride ion 
along with one molecule of carbon dioxide, with auto-regeneration of most 
of the carbon’s active sites and nearly infinite capacity. “Combined 
chlorine” (monochloramine) is less easily adsorbed, requiring more 
carbon or reduced flow rate for equivalent performance. 

2. Organic compounds containing chlorine and other halogens: Simple 
halogenated hydrocarbons are highly adsorbable to activated carbon. This 
includes a great many pesticides (DDT, Endrin, Lindane, Chlordane, etc.), 
industrial solvents (trichloroethylene, trichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, 
carbon tetrachloride, etc.), and disinfection byproducts (THMs including 
chloroform, chloral hydrate, etc.). 

3. Organic compounds containing benzene rings: These include some of the most toxic chemicals, such as benzene, toluene, dioxins, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and phthalate esters (plasticizers for vinyls). 

4. Heavy metals: Lead, cadmium, and mercury adsorb readily, both as 
dissolved ions and colloidal oxide or carbonate particles, but the capacity 
is limited—similar to the capacity for THMs. 

5. Taste and Odor (T&O) compounds: The substances produced by 
microbes that are responsible for the common musty-earthy-mildewy T&O 
are extremely well adsorbed and with very great capacity 

http://www.everpure.com/pdf/shortcourse.pdf >>>>>>


----------



## Palladium

IDENTIFICATION OF METALS AND ALLOYS :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Dow Chemical Resins and Beads :arrow:


----------



## patnor1011

.


----------



## Palladium

Metallurgy Report gold refining e scrap :arrow:


----------



## Palladium

Here is a document that was started by another forum member awhile back. The document is not complete, but has a good start to it. You can download load it and add to it as you see fit. 

Scrap Parts Comp Identification (3) megs in PDF form :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/document_downloads/20327561?extension=pdf

Here is the original M.S. word doc (16) megs :arrow: http://www.scribd.com/document_downloads/20327561?extension=doc


----------



## Palladium

safe recovery of platinum from scrap Auto catalyic converter :arrow: 

Auto catalyic converter :arrow: 

Asteriods platinum :arrow:


----------



## Rhodium

Principle of ion exchange and resin beads :arrow:


----------



## Rhodium

Butyl Diethylene :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 

Hi,
Maybe this will help for those interested in using butyl diethylene. I have been using BD for the last 9 months. First let me state that it does not always produce gold as flakes or grains. Some of the gold drops as a brown sponge with a mix of flakes and grains, 

I start with the poor mans AR or HCL and Clorox; I will list the steps and amounts for CPUs with lids.
32 oz of CPUs with the metal lids broke loose.

8 oz of sodium nitrate.
16 oz of distilled water.
32 oz of HCL.

I put the CPUs and the lids in the AR and leave for 12 hours.
Filter the solution until clear and then dilute 4 to 1 with distilled water.
I use 1000 ml flasks to hold the 4 to one mixture of BD and diluted AR. I shake it well several times over a couple of hour then poor it into 1000ml separator funnels and let it set several hour so all the BD moves to the top of the Funnel. I repeat this process until the BD is a dark amber color. I have found that BD will hold its own weight is AU.

The next step is to wash the BD with a 4 to 1 mixture of HCL and distilled water. When I have 2000ml of BD washed I place it in a 4000ml beaker and bring it to a boil. At the same time I add 3 oz of oxalic acid to 1000ml of distilled water and bring it to a boil.
I then pour the oxalic acid mix into the beaker with the BD. The gold starts to drop and, I stir the mixture until the BD is almost colorless then remove from the heat.

I pour off the BD and strain the gold out using a coffee filter. I then wash the gold while it is still in the filter with hot HCL and then distilled water. There is always a little BD in the filter which I place in a melting dish. I have been selling my gold to Midwest and they refine it again and assay it. I have been getting between 98.5 and 99.9 on my buttons. I have found that some gold is trapped in the ox colic acid solution so I use SMB to drop it out. The BD is ready to use again and you loose very little in the process. The only difference when using HCL and Clorox it is diluted half and half.

My biggest expense is neutralizing the spent AR solution. I buy the rest of the stuff in bulk from wine and soap making suppliers.

If you decide to use this process be sure you are wearing a good respirator, eye protection and gloves even if you are doing it outside, this is bad stuff.

Bob Noble

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=6125#p53715


----------



## Rhodium

Here's a great post Chris made on another forum.

Silver 


Part 1 - Silver - Electrolytic

I refined silver and gold, professionally, for 40+ years. There are lots of ways
to refine silver and I've done most of them, at least on a lab basis. Some ways
work better than others and the best method often depends on what you want to
end up with. Here are some of the better ways.

ELECTROLYTIC. This was the original question on the other thread, I think. If
the silver is dissolved as a nitrate, it can probably be plated out as a pure
crystal with a little jiggling. However, it can't have a bunch of free nitric
acid left in it. You could eliminate the extra nitric acid by dissolving extra
silver in it until it won't take anymore and then diluting it until the silver
concentration is about 6 oz/gal.

Plating out silver is best when used as a continuous method and it doesn't work
too well as a batch process. The problem is that, when the silver content gets
below about 1 to 2 oz/gallon, the crystals get spongy and stringy and become
hard to manage and to rinse. Therefore, you can't get all the silver out and
will have to resort to another method (cementation, chlorides, etc) to get the
last bit.

Use about 3 to 4 volts. You will plate out about 4.025 grams, or less, of silver
per amp applied, per hour of operation (20 amps for 5 hours would plate out
4.025 X 20 X 5 = 402.5 grams, max.). You could do this in a plastic bucket. Use
a fairly thick stainless sheet for the cathode. You could use stainless for the
anode but, when the silver starts to become depleted, you will have problems. It
is better to use a silver anode of at least 95% purity (cemented silver, melted
into a bar, works great). This will make the process continuous until the copper
gets so high that it's affecting the silver purity - about 10 - 12 oz/gal. You
need to "bag" the bar to prevent the "dirt" particles (or gold or platinum) in
the bar from contaminating the crystal. IF, and only IF, all of the nitric is
out, you can completely wrap the bar with filter paper and secure it with rubber
bands. Otherwise, you can have a bag sewn up with polyester cloth and polyester
thread, with a drawstring.

You have to keep an eye on it. If the silver crystal shorts out the electrodes,
you will have problems. You will blow fuses/breaker. You could start a fire. If
any of the "bag" burns, it will dump garbage into the crystal. Design the cell
so the bottom of the anode is at least 3" or 4" off the bottom of the container
and the anode/cathode spacing is 4" or 5". This will give the crystals some room
to grow. The crystals will fall off of the cathode and collect on the bottom.
Gently, knock down the crystals, on the cathode and between the electrodes often
with a glass rod. If you have everything about where it should be, you should be
able to let it run for about 2 to 4 hours before you have to harvest the
crystal. In this vertical arrangement, you'll have to take everything apart to
get the silver crystal. After silver removal, put everything back and start it
up again. Here again, if all was setup right, the hard crystal rinses
efficiently and quickly and dries and melts fast. The resulting purity could be
around 99.99%.

The vertical problems are solved with a horizontal (Balbach-Thum) cell.

There's a lot more to understanding the electrolysis of silver nitrate solutions
and there's lots of tricks. It's a precarious balance between the anode
composition, the silver and copper concentrations in the solution, and amperage.
Silver cells are easy to start out but it's not that easy to keep them going
properly. For example, each ounce of copper dissolved into the solution pushes
3.4 ounces of silver out of the solution. For this reason, it doesn't take long
to deplete the silver when the silver anode bar contains a lot of copper. Melted
cemented silver is the easiest to run because it's about 99% silver to start
with. You should at least have a good idea of the purity of the stuff you're
running, keep good notes, and do a little math.

I'll add these as I get time

Next: Part 2 - Cementation

Part 3 - Silver Oxide

Parts 4, 5, And 6? - Silver Chloride

GoldSilverPro

> Silver Part 2 - CEMENTATION
> 
> Here's a very incomplete list of metals as they appear in the electromotive series.
> 
> Magnesium Mg
> Aluminum Al
> Zinc Zn
> Chromium Cr
> Iron Fe
> Cadmium Cd
> Nickel Ni
> Tin Sn
> Lead Pb
> Hydrogen H
> Copper Cu
> Silver Ag
> Palladium Pd
> Mercury Hg
> Platinum Pt
> Gold Au
> 
> The rule is that any metal (in metallic form) in the list will precipitate (cement) out any dissolved metal below it in the list and none of the metals above it. In general, the metals trade places. Some of the metal dissolves and the other(s) precipitate out. Let's say you have a nitrate solution containing copper, nickel, silver, and zinc. If you hang a copper bar in the solution, some of the copper will dissolve and only the silver will precipitate (cement) out as a metal powder. On the other hand, if you hung iron in the solution, all 4 of the dissolved metals, Cu, Ni, Ag, and Zn, would precipitate out. The general process is called cementation because, at least in the case of silver, the preciptated metal looks like cement.
> 
> THE SIMPLEST CASE - a nitrate solution containing silver and copper. If you hang a copper bar in this solution, the silver will cement out. Actually, the silver will loosely deposit (plate) onto the copper bar. Since it doesn't stick well to the copper, most of the silver will fall off.
> 
> The best form of copper to use is unplated copper buss bar containing no solder or connectors - just copper only. Check out the scrap yards. Some people use copper tubing. However, some of the silver deposits on the inside of the tubing and is hard to get out. You can flatten the tubing before using it or, leave the tubing as is and finally rinse the inside out, using a bottle brush. Solid copper wire is a poor choice because the silver particles get between the wire and are hard to separate. Stranded copper wire is really a bad choice due to the same problem. 
> 
> As I said before, some of the copper will dissolve as the silver cements. For every 3.4 ounces of silver that cements out, 1 ounce of copper will dissolve. When using copper tubing or wire, the copper will partially dissolve and small slivers of copper will contaminate the silver. Since buss bar is 1/4" thick, this isn't nearly as much of a problem.
> 
> If there is a lot of free nitric acid in the solution, it will first dissolve the copper. Only when most of the nitric has been used up, will the silver cementation begin. 
> 
> This process is very simple. Unless there is a bunch of free nitric acid in the solution, there are few fumes. Except for the occasional stirring, you just "Set it and forget it", as Ron Popeil says.
> 
> How I do it: 
> 
> (1) If the solution is strong, add some distilled water. When dealing with silver solutions, don't use tap water. The chlorides in tap water precipitate silver chloride, which is hard to recover and produces a white cloud that makes it hard to see what is going on. Add enough distilled water so you have about twice as much water as strong acid solution. The reason for this is to prevent the formation of blue copper nitrate crystals during or after the cementation is complete. If crystals do form, they can coat everything and stop or slow down the reaction. Add some hot distilled water to the solution to dissolve them.
> 
> (2) Filter the solution. Any solid particles in the solution will contaminate the cemented silver.
> 
> (3) Put the solution in a plastic bucket. Is is best if the solution is at least 6" deep. 
> 
> (4) Put several lengths of copper buss bar or tubing into the solution. They should be long enough to protrude several inches out of the solution, for easy handling. The more bars or tubing in the solution, the faster all the silver will cement. The rate of cementation is proportional to the surface area of the bars.
> 
> (5) Stir occasionally. I usually use one of the bars or a plastic rod cut from a coat hanger to stir with. Stirring will dislodge most of the silver clinging to the bars.
> 
> (6) Once most all of the free nitric has been consumed, the cementation will start. The cemented silver can easily be seen by raising one of the bars. However, the cementation requires a little free nitric acid to make it work. In rare cases, when the solution contains zero acid, the cementation may not start. In this case, add about 10-20 ml of nitric to each gallon of solution.
> 
> (7) When the solution tests no silver, scrap off any silver attached to the bars with a plastic scrapper, rinse them off with a squirt bottle containing distilled water, and remove them. Depending on the amount of copper bars you used, it might take from 1 to 3 days to cement all the silver.
> 
> How to test for completion: Stir the solution well, let it settle a bit, and then withdraw a few clear drops from the surface and place then in a small beaker that has been rinsed out well with distilled water. Add a drop of salt water or weak HCl. A white cloud indicates the presence of silver chloride. When no white cloud forms, the cementation is complete.
> 
> (8) Allow the cementated silver to settle completely and then siphon or decant off the solution without disturbing the silver. Filter the silver and rinse (tap water can be used at this stage) well until the rinse water no longer has any hint of blue. The blue color can be intensified by collecting, in a small beaker, a little rinse water (a few drops) coming from the tip of the filter funnel and adding enough ammonia (few drops) to make it alkaline. Put a piece of white paper behind the beaker to better see the color.
> 
> (9) At this point, the silver is about 99% pure. It can be further purified by drying it, melting it, casting it into bars, and running it through an electrolytic silver cell. You can also dry it and use it for inquartation when refining karat gold.
> 
> GoldSilverPro


----------



## Rhodium

Hydrometallurgy in extraction processes :arrow: http://books.google.com/books?id=IV4iOAESyTMC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=leaching+system+chlorine&source=bl&ots=bTn70fHCxo&sig=xOMyvXZg_llWl94rWlh10VuM1Yw&hl=en&ei=fSgbS9H7CZG0tgfFmszfAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=leaching%20system%20chlorine&f=false


The extraction and refining of metals :arrow: http://books.google.com/books?id=EoOV6obtug0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=leaching+system+chlorine&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Ion Exchange and Solvent Extraction: A Series of Advances  :arrow: http://books.google.com/books?id=6ogPL0GZRdAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=related:ISBN0849344336#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Here is the link to many more :arrow: http://books.google.com/books?q=related:ISBN0849344336&lr=&id=EoOV6obtug0C&sa=N&start=0


----------



## goldsilverpro

For those of you that don't know this, Google Books is a great source of information. Like the links in Rhodium's last post, there are many high-dollar (most from $200 to $600) modern technical books viewable in Google Books. The searches can be refined into 3 categories:

(1) Full View or Public Domain. These are usually old books or articles in technical journals. Every page is displayed in these. These can be downloaded in pdf form. Many of the old classic metallurgy, mining, and analytical books can be found here.

(2) Limited Preview. This category is a wealth of information and is where I do most of my searches. These are generally newer books, most of which are quite expensive to buy. In most cases, at least half of the text can be viewed. Sometimes, the entire chapter(s) that you're interested in can be viewed. Sometimes, what you want isn't available. In many cases, the Table of Contents is linked to the text. You can't download books in this category, although someone might be able to figure out how to do it. As an example, I just now searched for - ion exchange applications - under limited preview, and got about 2,000 hits.

(3) Snippet View. As it says, you get just little snippets (a few sentences) of the text, here and there. I find this category to be usually worthless.


----------



## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank

Do you remember when we were young?...when we were students taking sun in the Campus looking at pretty girls with those short,very short skirts?.....Damn,those days are gone but the books where we learned still young,take a look.

Best regards.

Manuel


----------



## aflacglobal

Mineralogy 101 Chemical tests :arrow:


----------



## goldsilverpro

> Do you remember when we were young?...when we were students taking sun in the Campus looking at pretty girls with those short,very short skirts?


I wish. When I was in school, they wore skirts like on "Happy Days" with poodles on them and, under that, heavy elastic armor all over their bodies.


----------



## lala14

Mida said:


> Ok,People....
> 
> I have uploaded a couple of interesting files.You can download it here:
> 
> Wiley - The Chemistry of Organic Derivatives of Gold and Silver.pdf (6.97 MB)
> http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=7e658fc5869ddd814eb5badd41f14a8b
> 
> 
> Gold chemistry.pdf (6.50 MB)
> http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=e9ff3681567cf5105268bbd059e32dae


file broken


----------



## Barren Realms 007

goldsilverpro said:


> I wish. When I was in school, they wore skirts like on "Happy Days" with poodles on them and, under that, heavy elastic armor all over their bodies.



"HAPPY DAYS"

Were you Fonzie's double.


----------



## aflacglobal

Yeah, most of the files got wiped from this thread. You can find those same files in the links in my sig line below.

I can't get P.M."s from my aflac account. 
P.M. me at Palladium.


----------



## goldsilverpro

> Were you Fonzie's double


Like Fonzie, I did have a duck's ass haircut.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

goldsilverpro said:


> Were you Fonzie's double
> 
> 
> 
> Like Fonzie, I did have a duck's ass haircut.
Click to expand...


That would be an interesting picture to see. 8)


----------



## Palladium

Chemical Reactions 
Alkaline etch is basically cupric chloride with the copper complexed with ammonia to keep it in solution at a higher pH. In the correct pH range the etchant will still attack copper but is much less aggressive towards tin, solder and nickel. 

The etching reaction: 
__2Cu0 + 2Cu+2(NH3)4Cl2 →4Cu+1(NH3)2Cl 

The regeneration reaction: 
__4Cu+1(NH3)2Cl + 4NH3 + 4NH4Cl + O2 →4Cu+2(NH3)4Cl2 + 2H2O 

__The ammonia (NH3) and ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) are provided by the replenished solution. The oxygen comes from the air brought into the etch chamber by the ventilation system. 


Example: How much air must be pulled into the etch chamber in the previous example to regenerate the etchant? 

Solution: From the regeneration reaction it can be seen that each 4 moles of copper etched requires 1 mole of oxygen (O2) for regeneration (4 TO 1) ratio. From the prior example we know that the amount of copper etched per hour is 34119 grams. ( 1219 oz ) 
Moles Cu etched = 
34119 gm 63.54 gm / mole Cu = 537 moles Cu 
Moles oxygen needed for regeneration = 537 moles Cu 
4 moles Cu /mole oxygen = 134.2 moles oxygen 
134.2 moles O2 x 32 gm O2 / mole = 4294 gm O2 needed for regeneration 
Air is 20% O2 so 4294 gm O2 x 5 = 21472 gm of air is needed to supply the necessary oxygen. 
1 mole of air weighs approximately 30 gm and one mole of air occupies a volume of 22.4 liters 
Air flow needed to supply enough oxygen for regeneration: 
= 21472 gm air 
30 gm air / mole x 22.4 liters / mole = 16032 liters / hr = 566 cubic ft / hr 
If the system were airtight then 566 ft3 / hr would be all the flow needed 

2.15 cubic feet of air per oz of copper. 
one of these can produce about 2 cfh. http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fus ... 9/cid/1785 

Chemical Processing Parameters for Alkaline Etch 
There are four chemical factors that contribute to etch rate and undercut. They are: 
__pH 
__Copper content 
__Chloride concentration 
__Temperature 

All of these factors must be analyzed and controlled in order to find the best compromise between the fastest etch rate and the least amount of undercut. The effects of each are discussed in the following paragraphs. 
pH 

The pH of the etchant is a measure of the relative amount of free ammonia (NH3) that is available to the etching process. Most alkaline etch baths are designed to work in a pH range of 8.0 to 8.5 but there exist specific low pH alkaline etch formulations designed for fine line etching with pH as low as 7.8. The etch rate of the bath increases as the pH changes within these limits but the pH of the bath also has an important effect on the undercut. Under ideal etch conditions, the 
diamine monovalent copper complex [Cu(NH3)2+] formed during the etching reaction forms a film on the sidewall. This film acts as a natural banking agent protecting the sidewall from lateral etch. At the upper end of the pH range, 


however, the film is rapidly dissolved away in the presence of free ammonia and dissolved air. Typically the undercut is 30% to 40% more at a pH of 8.5 than it is at a pH of 8.1. For this reason Chemcut recommends that the etch bath be run as close to the lower pH limit as possible for best undercut results. Operating below the 
recommended range will cause the enchants to attack the tin in tin-lead resists. Even worse, running under the recommended pH minimizes the effectiveness of the buffering system and the etchant could enter a condition known as “sludge out” where the copper-ammonia complex precipitates out of solution. Once out of solution the copper-ammonia complex will not redissolve and 
the etcher must be emptied and recharged with fresh etchant. 

Chloride Concentration 
The chloride concentration indicates the amount of ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) present in the system. As the chloride concentration increases, more copper metal can be held in solution, allowing a decrease in the amount of undercut. The chloride component also acts as a buffering agent in the etchant, permitting a narrow pH window. The ratio of chloride concentration to copper concentration is important in the etch bath. The etch solution will become more corrosive as the amount of chloride above the stoichiometric balance (2 moles of ammonium chloride per mole of copper) increases. In this condition the etch solution will readily dissolve away the protective film on the sidewalls formed by the diamine copper complex.


----------



## Palladium

This is a single-pass six stage absorption system that operates entirely under a vacuum (negative pressure), through the contact of chlorinated air and a neutralization solution, the concentration of exhausted air can be reduced to 1ppm. Two moles of sodium hydroxide (80 pounds) is required to neutralize each mole of chlorine (70.9 pounds). The amount required to neutralize the 1 pound of Cl2 is obtained by the below formula;

NaOH = 80.0 / 70.9 = 1.13 times to Cl2

The 20% by weight of sodium hydroxide is usually used to neutralize the chlorine gas. Each gallon of 20% solution contains 2.04 lbs of NaOH.

Neutralization of chlorine with sodium hydroxide is an exothermic reaction. The heat of reaction is 44,600 Btu/mole of chlorine. Reaction is in liquid phase. If there is no heat loss to the air and other components of neutralization system, the temperature rise of sodium hydroxide solution can be calculated from the following equation:

H = mCpDT

Where,
H = total heat released by reaction, BTU
m = total weight of caustic solution, lb
Cp =heat capacity of causitic solution, BTU/lb
DT = temperature rise, oF
Heat capacity for 20% by weight caustic solution is 0.9 Btu/lb. One (1) gallon of 20% NaOH is equal to 10.21 lbs.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Palladium said:


> This is a single-pass six stage absorption system that operates entirely under a vacuum (negative pressure), through the contact of chlorinated air and a neutralization solution, the concentration of exhausted air can be reduced to 1ppm. Two moles of sodium hydroxide (80 pounds) is required to neutralize each mole of chlorine (70.9 pounds). The amount required to neutralize the 1 pound of Cl2 is obtained by the below formula;
> 
> NaOH = 80.0 / 70.9 = 1.13 times to Cl2
> 
> The 20% by weight of sodium hydroxide is usually used to neutralize the chlorine gas. Each gallon of 20% solution contains 2.04 lbs of NaOH.
> 
> Neutralization of chlorine with sodium hydroxide is an exothermic reaction. The heat of reaction is 44,600 Btu/mole of chlorine. Reaction is in liquid phase. If there is no heat loss to the air and other components of neutralization system, the temperature rise of sodium hydroxide solution can be calculated from the following equation:
> 
> H = mCpDT
> 
> Where,
> H = total heat released by reaction, BTU
> m = total weight of caustic solution, lb
> Cp =heat capacity of causitic solution, BTU/lb
> DT = temperature rise, oF
> Heat capacity for 20% by weight caustic solution is 0.9 Btu/lb. One (1) gallon of 20% NaOH is equal to 10.21 lbs.




I mole of chlorine neutralized generates 44,600 BTU

1 mole of Sodium Hydroxide + 1 mole of Chlorine: 80 + 70.9=150.9 lbs

Weight of solution/lbs. per gal.: 150.9/10.21=14.779 Gal.

BTU Generated/total gal.: 44,000/14.779=3,017.795 BTU per gal generated


I gal of solution has a heat capacity of:

lbs. per gal*BTU per lb= BTU per gal

10.21*.9=9.189 BTU/gal

What am I missing here with the diffrence in the BTU per gal? 

Is that the amount of heat that is trying to be disipated per gal?


----------



## Palladium

Just some links. :arrow: 

What are they ????? 
Now that's the exciting part of finding something.  

Links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2DY1gSiEmM&NR=1

http://www.alafarm.com/video/Default.aspx?vid=214

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=y5Y4AAAAEBAJ&dq=peter+s+shor

http://www.amazingrust.com/experiments/how_to/Thermite.html

http://www.waterspecialists.biz/html/tr_detox___stabilization_techn.html

http://thriftybits.com/

http://www.well.com/user/peter/gold.html

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3WY87?Pid=search

http://www.patentstorm.us/applications/20060163082/fulltext.html

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=US2001043408&DISPLAY=DESC

http://www.contenti.com/products/soldering/110-406.html

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=24665&clickid=redirect

http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms/Chem_Electrochem.html

http://www.dow.com/liquidseps/prod/pt_au.htm

http://www.dow.com/liquidseps/prod/pt_platinum.htm

http://www.dow.com/liquidseps/prod/order.htm

http://www.timet.com/coresistframe.html

http://www.gewater.com/handbook/cooling_water_systems/ch_27_chlorine.jsp

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5292490.html

http://www.google.com/patents?id=1okoAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=union+membrane+cell+pipe+fitting#v=onepage&q=union%20membrane%20cell%20pipe%20fitting&f=false

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12517024.200-sounding-out-new-chemistry-ultrasonic-waves-can-createtemperatures-as-high-as-those-at-the-surface-of-the-sun-and-pressures-ashigh-as-those-in-the-deepest-oceans-not-surprisingly-ultrasound-producessome-interesting-chemistry-as-researchers-are-finding-out.html

http://www.filterbags.com/filter_bag_pricing.htm

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2007&p=22190#p22190

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBT-4J3WGKC-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=399e98987d42565f1ce859343bf8e34c

http://www.jmrefining.com/page-view.php?page_id=116&parent_page_id=2

http://www.platinumrecoveries.com/news/autocatalysts.php

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5102632/description.html

http://www.chlorine-generator.com/Process.html

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2003/0129112.html

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=22876&clickid=redirect

http://www.teknokarat.com/product.htm

http://goldmachinery.com/machinery/italimpianti/refining/iao5050-1

http://www.amritgroup.com/gold-refining.htm

http://www.learnxrf.com/


----------



## Palladium

GSP :arrow: 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=350&p=2916&hilit=glued+sand#p2916

Good questions. Anyone answering these questions will give different answers. Everyone develops their own system, depending on their own conditions, equipment, etc. One method is not necessarily the best, Try to pool everyone's ideas together and find the way that suits you. Keep in mind, however, the goals: don't lose any gold; do things to get maximum purity; think safety. Here's the way I do it.


What's the best containers to use.
I prefer 4 liter beakers for dissolving and use a watch glass to cover it. In case of breakage or spillage, I place the beaker in a 5 quart, white, flat bottomed, Corning Ware dish and put the dish on the hotplate. For 5 ozs, or less, you can use a pyrex, 10 or 12 cup, replacement drip coffee pot. The best is the one with a stainless steel ring holding the short plastic handle, only at the top. Don't get the type where the bottom of the handle is attached. It will burn.

After dissolving, I transfer the solution to a clean, white, 5 gallon plastic bucket. I add 3 times the volume of tap water that I have acid plus about 60 mL of battery acid per each gallon of acid. These two additions will drop out any silver or lead that is dissolved in the acid and these will be removed by filtering. Stir the solution. The long straight part from a plastic clothes hanger works great.

I sit the bucket on a table or a bench. I place a piece of 2" X 4" underneath the back edge of the bucket. This tilts the bucket towards you and allows the solids to settle in one spot on the front bottom of the bucket. I put the lid of the bucket and allow the solids to settle overnight,


What is the best way to decant my solution w/o disturbing the gold sediment after percipitating?
There are three ways to do this. I do all three, depending on what I'm dealing with. More often than not, I siphon. No matter which one I use, I always end up filtering the entire solution. Super clean solutions, before precipitating, is necessary for good gold purity. This goes fast, however, if you first use one of these methods to get a gross separation of the liquid and the solids. Decant, dip, or siphon off the liquid. Filter the liquid first and then filter the solids plus the remaining liquid last. If you were to try and filter the entire thing, without first separating the liquid and solids, it would take forever.

(1) Decanting. You can carefully pour off the solution into another bucket. This is the fastest way. When you tilted the bucket, the solids settled together in one pile. Before pouring, put the receiving bucket inside a plastic tray with about a 7 gallon capacity (WalMart), to catch drips and spills. Put the tray on the floor. When you pour, keep the pile nearest the bucket you are pouring into. In other words, try not to disturb the pile. Go slow and steady. Keep an eye on the solids. Just before the solids start to go over, stop. After pouring, there will be a slight film of solution, where you poured from, at the rim of the bucket. Either have a friend rinse this gold bearing film into the receiving bucket or, rinse it back into the bucket containing the solids. If there are drips remaining anywhere on the outside of the bucket, wipe them off with a piece of paper towel. Save this and any other paper towels you've used to wipe up spills that contain PM's. Eventually, you can burn the towels and recover the values. It's actually better to have 3 separate buckets to save PM laden towels - gold, silver, and Pt group.

(2) Dipping. I don't use this method much when working with buckets. I use it a lot when working with open plastic drums. Often, it is difficult to raise a heavy drum high enough to completely siphon it. So, I keep it on the floor and siphon it into an empty plastic drum sitting next to it. When half of the solution is siphoned, the solution level in the 2 drums will be equal, and, therefore, the siphon will stop working. I dip the other half of the solution out with a neat scoop that I cut from 1 gallon plastic jugs. 

With the bucket still tilted, carefully dip the solution out, and into the filter, with a 1 cup Pyrex measuring cup - the type with a handle. To keep from disturbing the solids, use this technique. Turn the cup sideways and slowly immerse it part way. As it fills, slowly turn it upright and, at the same time, bring it out of the solution. If you do it right, the solution surface will hardly make a ripple. As you get near the bottom, you have to be more careful and fill the cup less and less each time. To keep from dripping solution all over, hold a bucket lid under the cup, with the other hand, when moving the solution to the filter. When safely over the filter, remove the bucket lid. When finished, rinse off the lid and the cup into the filter. When the liquid is completely finished filtering, start filtering the solids. 

(3) Siphoning. Proper siphoning can remove the most liquid without disturbing the solids. This makes the filtering go faster because there are less solids to filter. And, the solids are what clogs the paper and slows down the filtering. I don't use gloves when siphoning because the tubing is harder to manipulate. Of, course, I always have purple hands. I do recommend that you use gloves. The thinner the gloves, the better, for this operation. Practice the siphoning a few times to get the hang of it. Put a little sand in a bucket of water. Tilt the bucket, let the sand settle, and siphon off the water.

This is a little harder to explain without pictures. Put a clean bucket inside a plastic tray and put the tray on the floor beneath the tilted bucket on the bench. Get about a 4' length of 3/8" ID clear, flexible, plastic tubing from the hardware store. With this size tubing, a full bucket will take about 5 minutes to siphon. 

These instructions are for a right handed person. Reverse them if you are left handed. Fold the tubing double so that the ends meet and are together. Fill the tubing with water to the brims of both ends of the tubing. Stand on the right side of the buckets. Hold the ends of the tubing together in your left hand. Keeping the ends at the same level, hold the right end in your right hand and put your left index finger over the left end, to seal it. Keeping the left end sealed, lower it to the bucket on the floor, until your hand is partway inside the bucket. And, here's the tricky part. At almost the same time, put the right end about an inch into the solution and release your left index finger. Actually. the left finger release should occur about a half second after you stick the right end into the solution. If the solution flows, release the left hand completely and allow the tubing to hang in the lower bucket. If it doesn't flow, start over.


As you're siphoning keep an eye glued to the end of the tubing that's in the liquid. Try to keep the tubing only about an inch deep in the liquid. This is hard to see if the liquid is dark colored. I usually color about 1-1/2" (measure it) of the end of the tubing with a red Magic Marker. Black is OK but you can see the red better. This enables you to determine how deep the tubing is in the liquid. The marker will wear off after a few times and you will have to redo it. It's hard to hold the tubing steady and keep from disturbing the solids. To remedy this, I put the very edge of the tip of the tubing against the front side of the bucket, while keeping it about an inch deep. As the liquid level goes down, slide the tip down with it, against the side of the bucket. As you approach the solids, reduce the depth of the tip in the liquid and, with your left hand, slowly tilt the bucket a little more towards you. . 

I repeat, keep your eyes on the tubing. If the tubing comes out of the liquid, for only an instant, the siphon will break and you'll have to start over. After siphoning, rinse the tubing, inside and out, into the top bucket along with the solids. The best thing to use for rinsing and, for filling the siphon tubing with water, is a lab type, plastic, squeeze type, squirt bottle with a long spout. The spout points sideways from the lid. I have also seen these in sporting goods stores. Joggers use them.


Can excess urea affect the way gold percipitates?

With no urea, the Storm (sodium metabisulfite) reacts with the excess nitric before it starts dropping out the gold. With too little urea, the same thing happens. If you don't have any excess nitric to start with, you don't need urea. That is my approach and I've covered how to do it on several other threads. With a lot of extra nitric and no urea, you may have to add several pounds of Storm before anything happens. With way too much urea, the excess will sit on the bottom and won't dissolve.


How do I filter my aqua regia acid.....Can coffee filters be utilized
There is a good discussion of filtering on several threads and this thread, especially. With coffee filters, lazersteve's setup would be best. With lab type filter papers, mine would probably be better.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=251


do I use urea before Filtering?
Interesting question. I don't use urea any more and haven't really thought about this question. Either way would work, although most people do it after filtering. However, if you are heavy handed, add an excess, and have undissolved urea sitting on the bottom, it would be better to filter after adding. Of course, how do you know in advance that you will add too much urea? Were I to start using it, I would probably add it before filtering.


----------



## Palladium

BUYING KARAT GOLD 

The pricing depends on who you're buying from and how much you're able to sell it for. If you buy from the public, the profit margin is much greater than if you buy from pawn shops, coin stores, jewelers, or other buyers. However, both are lucrative if you get your numbers straight. Buying from the buyers is lower margin but higher volume. 

Although some would disagree, I think more money can be made on karat gold by simply buying and selling, without refining it. In my experience, the secret is to turn your money as often and as many times as possible per unit time. The refining process slows this down considerably. Also, by turning the metal fast, you are not as affected by daily changes in the market price. If you get to the point where you're doing big volume, that's when you MIGHT consider doing your own refining. 

When I bought and sold karat gold, I sometimes quoted how much I was paying, per gram or pennyweight, for 10Kt, 14Kt, 18Kt, and 22Kt, based on a certain percentage of the market price. I never mentioned the market price - only what I was paying. These numbers change daily and sometimes hourly, depending on what the market is doing. You really have to keep on top of it. Another way is to keep silent about what you paying until you have evaluated and weighed the material. Then you say something like, "I will give you X dollars for this bunch of material." When buying from the public, they will usually take what you offer, unless they've been shopping around. If you quote on the low side, you can always negotiate and increase your offering price. A friend of mine, who owns a scrap metal yard, often says, "It's not my job to educate the public." When buying from buyers, they are more savvy and will often ask what you are paying for 10Kt, 14Kt, etc. 

You can usually buy from the pubic at somewhere between 50% to about 80% of spot. If you buy from buyers, you will pay from about 80% to 90% of spot. Whatever the traffic will bear. When selling your karat gold, the price you can get depends on volume, the honesty of the buyer (or, refiner), how you have prepared the scrap, and how well you've covered your butt. When selling small amounts, you'll usually get somewhere between 93% and 98% of spot. For very large amounts, you might get over 99%. Always shop around when looking for a buyer. Also, don't forget that, when you buy, you're paying cash and, when you sell, you usually get a check. Catfish may disagree with these numbers. I haven't done this in awhile and different strategies are needed in different markets. As in all things, buy low and sell high but, don't price too low or, you'll price yourself out of the market. There is plenty of competition out there. 

You will have to go through a learning curve on how to determine the karat of gold objects. Some gold is not marked and, even that that is marked can be marked wrong. Catfish tests everything, even if it's marked. This is a very good idea. 

When I was manager of a refinery in Hong Kong, I once asked the owner of the largest Hong Kong gold exchange what he thought the gold market was going to do. He said that there were only 2 great experts in this field. One thought the market was going to go up and the other thought the market was going to go down. I have never forgotten this. In other words, when buying and selling, never worry about the market. Just make sure the proper buying/selling spread is present, on every deal, and turn your money as fast as possible. 

This is only the tip of the iceberg and these things are only my ideas. I'm sure that Catfish can provide much more info than what I've given you. 

Chris 




Hunchback: 

I just got back from buying some karat gold, and saw your post. Goldsilverpro has pretty well told you all the important steps in buying karat gold and also his recommendations on refining it. 

I agree with him totally. I have been in this business for a little over two years of buying karat gold and reselling. First as Chris said, you don’t want to refine karat gold for there’s not enough money in it. I will give you my buyer’s name and web site that buys all my gold. He pays 98% world spot for all of it. First you will not get much more for your gold even if you refine it. It would have to be assayed if it has been refined, and then it would have to be at least 99.95% pure. Assaying cost money too. The difference is just not there, when you can sell it in karat form for 98%. You would have to have very large amounts of karat gold to even break even refining it and assuming you could get the required pureness and then find a buyer for pure gold. 

Now as far as buying karat gold, you need to be fairly good at testing gold. Just because it is hallmarked as karat gold doesn’t necessarily mean that it is karat gold. There are as many dishonest folks in the precocious metals business as there are in the used car business. I test for visual hall mark stamp of karat gold marking. You have to watch, sometimes it will be marked 14k RPG, HE, GF, KGF, 1/10 12K or 1/20 14k.and other similar markings. When you see any of these markings, this tells you this is not pure karat gold. Don’t turn this type of gold down, for if you are in the refining business, this is the very best for refining. Only you don’t want to pay much for it. I buy gold filled gold items for about $9.00 per ounce. This is about 60% of the actual gold content if it is 1/20 GF, now 1/10 GF is more. I have developed a spread sheet that updates automatically every day in accordance to the gold prices at the World and New York spot buy prices. I base all my buy prices at 60% of 30 day average spot prices. You don’t want to buy on one day’s spot price for the price of gold fluctuates from day to day. I like a running average of about 30 days. 

As for as testing gold, this take a lot of experience and hands on. Just briefly how I do it is I put all the scrap in a pile and take a cheap magnet and go through it. This will separate all ferrous from the non ferrous metal. I then take the remainder and check it with a 10 X jewelers loop for hall mark stamp. Identify all pieces as stamped and non- stamped. I then take the non stamp pieces and test them with an electronic gold tester. (This test sets works on a capacitance effect of the gold.) I put all the gold in different groups. As stamped rating and tested rating. I then tell the customer that if these items test for the amount of actual gold as stamped or tested, that I will give them so much money for in cash. Always try to keep your dollar amount offers in total amounts. This is a buying technique. Just the opposite as selling techniques by keeping your selling amount separate and in smaller amounts. (Part of the game). 

After a tentative agreement with seller I then take a small rat tailed file and file a notch at least 1/16th inch in the metal. I then take nitric acid and test it for gold pureness. If it is gold plated, rolled or filled it will show up in this test. As I said before, you may still want to buy this gold that tests as gold filled or plated but at a different price. 

At the present time I am paying about $400.00 per ounce or $20.00 per penny weight for pure gold. You want to keep your numbers simple and round off if you can. Remember that I said before that I have a spread sheet with all the numbers. The customer is only interested in how much is it for 10k, 12k, 14k and 18k per penny weight/ounce. The spread sheet does all this for you. 

If you are serious about this, PM me and I can send you a copy of my excel spread sheet and all the testing info you will need and the equipment also. You can get in to this business with very little capital. The most important thing is to be able to test the gold accurately. You make one bad deal for gold that is plated or filled, and you lost your entire profits for the next three good buys. 

Hunchback, as you can probably already tell, I am a numbers guy and when you can turn your money over fast and clear 40% profit, you will do good. Grocery stores only make 2 to 3% on their money but the key is to turn it over fast many times. If you PM me I will also hook you up with my buyer too. They are a small recycler in Dallas Texas and very reputable. My son has been dealing with them for many years and I have for over two years my self and have never had any problems. I always know exactly how much gold I send them and what to expect. It has worked out perfect every time. 

I know this is lot to digest, but I strongly suggest you study this business and become very proficient at it before you sink a lot of money into it. 

I just bought $164.00 worth of Karat gold this morning, from the same lady I bought $71.00 yesterday. Not bad for about an hours work to make about $140.00. Once your customers learn they can trust you they will call you back and refer you to their friends. 

Lots of luck 

Catfish 

Added 
I buy from private individuals at 60% and sometime from pawn shops, but usually at 75%. I make more money from private individuals, but as I said earlier you can get larger amounts from the shops. Some times I buy several ounces from a pawn shop and send it to Dallas the next day. I usually send 5 to 10 ounces of pure gold or 10 to 20 ounces of karat to buyer. They will take any amount, but you got to take into consideration the shipping and insurance cost. This can add up. 


Hi William: 

I just got back from my normal Saturday morning yard sales run. I hit seven yard sales and purchased the following gold items. 

Gold price to day is $672.00 or 21.60 per gram my sell price 98%= $21.17 per gram 
Cost Sell 
53.4 grams of 10 karat gold jewelry at $5.36 per gram total $286.22 $471.41 

1.4 grams of 14 karat gold jewelry at $7.50 per gram total $10.50 $17.28 

9.1 grams of 18k 1/10 gold filled watch at $3.38. Total $3.38 .68g=14.40 

91.0 grams of heavy gold plate (HGE) Jewelry at 1% total $11.70 1.0g=21.17 

24.2 grams of .925 silver at .35 per gram total $5.42 $9.90 

Estimated total profit on this one buy is about 534.16 
-317.22 
--------- 
$216.94 


Please note that I will have to refine the gold filled and plated stuff. I get 90% spot for all my silver as long as it is .925. 

I also made one more purchase of old gold filled glasses from a flea market. 

I bought 11 pairs of gold filled 1/10 12 karat glasses frames. I don’t know the exact weight but I paid $2.00 per pair. I have been getting on the average of about $8 to $9.00 worth of gold from one pair average. I expect to clear about $75.00 on the glasses. 

I purchased all the gold and silver items at 60% today’s 30 day running average 0f $666.50 per oz. except the glasses. I just made the lady an offer. I was prepared to go as high as $5.00 per pair. As my good friend Harold sez “A deal is a deal”. 

You mentioned that you still had concerns on selling your gold. I talked to my buyer and she said that if you wanted to call her that would be fine and she herself would tell you what you would get. William, I must caution you again, when you sell gold, it has to produce the expected amount of gold per karat. In short, if the gold is solid karat gold it will produce the expected amount. If you don’t want to do that, then I will be happy to buy all the gold (providing it is pure karat gold) you can sell me at 90% spot of 30 day running average. I will then resell to my buyer at 98% daily spot. 

Seriously if you want me to help you on this just say so. I don’t mind. I enjoy it and it is a wonderful hobby. Buying and selling gold is about as much fun as refining gold. 

Catfish 

Hi Criss: 

On the Heavy gold plate, I have found that I figure the gold yield to be about 1% or so. I weigh it and get an expected yield and compute backwards to 60% of yield. 

This guy was pretty savvy on his gold but not quite savvy enough. He owns several flea market places and collected this gold during his buys of old auctions and etc. He knew that the gold should be marked, but what he didn’t understand was that it can’t be marked RPG, GHE, GF, and 1/10th and 1/20th gold filled or etc... He thought it just had to be marked 10, 14 or 18 karat. He had an 18 karat gold filled watch case and he thought it was 18 karat gold. After explaining the difference, he agreed. 

I tell all the guys, never turn down gold filled or heavy gold plated. That sure makes good scrap for refining. I have made a lot of money on this type of scrap. I have just about stopped buying any thing from eBay. I bid on gold filled only and sometimes I get it and sometimes I don’t, no problem. I am absolutely amazed at some of the buyers on eBay on how much they will pay for scrap. Either they are very stupid or they know something I don’t. Maybe it’s me. I don’t know. I just know what works for me. 

Steve, I look on the internet on Thursday night or early Friday morning and look at the classifieds on all the auctions and yard sales. They normally will say what time they start. I try to be there very early. As Aflac sez “the early bird gets the worm”. Sometimes I will go to an address on Friday or Thursday before their sale and talk to them. All they can do is ask you to leave and come back. It works sometime too. I also have plenty of professional business cards with my cell phone number, that I give every person I run into, that list everything I buy, such as scrap gold jewelry, class rings, wedding ring sets, broken chains, ear rings, gold/silver coins and anything gold or silver, old watches, and old gold filled glasses. 

Catfish

You have stated in your post that gold filled is better than gold plated... You are most certainly right. I buy karat gold and resell. I always buy gold filled items and refine them and resell the gold as pure. (Industry standards at 995 pure) 

You are right on determining the amount of gold content in filled items. 12k/24=.50X weight X .05 or .10 = amount of gold. (1/10 or 1/20) Example of 12k 1/20 gold filled and if the item weighed 10 Grams, you would wind up theoretically with .25 grams of gold or 2.5% gold. On 12k 1/10 gold filled you wind up with 5.0% gold on the total item. I never buy filled or rolled gold for much money. Usually for about 60% of the estimated amount of gold content of 2.5 to 5.0% depending on the amount filled or rolled. 

Example -- 1/20 14K at 10dwt. .05 X .583 X 10.0 = .29dwt of pure gold. 

The gold filled or rolled items always produce more actual gold than gold plating does. I measure gold plating at the best at 1.5% downward to zero (gold Flashed). The best way to determine the amount of gold plating on an item, is to put 1 gram of the gold plated material in 10 ml of 50% nitric acid and if the plating comes off in small flakes then it is low gold plating, but if it comes off in whole plating, then it is high gold plating, usually around 1.0% to 1.5%. This takes some experience in telling the difference. 

The big difference in gold filled or rolled is how you refine it. I refine quite a bit of the gold filled and I use regular Sodium Nitrate and Hydrochloric solution (sic) aqua regia. I try to make the pieces as small as I can. Then dissolve them. On what doesn’t dissolve due to the silver chloride coating the pieces, I take those and boil them in Ammonia Hydroxide and after all the silver is dissolved off the items, I then put them back in AR again and dissolve. Some times you get some items that this will not work on and you have to boil the items in nitric acid. I have found that most of the gold filled jewelry doesn’t have much silver in it, so dissolving it the traditional way is not much problems. 

Closing advice, buy all the gold filled and rolled items you can, but just make sure you don’t pay much for them. It takes a lot of work to get the gold out of them. They pay off much better than gold plated items. 

Catfish

A little more about why there is a rotating drum cathode on these units. A little electroplating 101.

I'm no chemist, but I'm pretty sure this is how it works. The silver in these solutions is in the form of a negative complex silver thiosulfate ion. Since this ion is negative, it is attracted to the anode and repelled by the cathode. All plating occurs only from the thin solution layer right next to the cathode and this layer's thickness is probably measured in nanometers. Once this layer is somewhat depleted, other reactions must occur, as long as there is current flow. In this case, the next cathode reaction, in the order of things, is the reduction of the thiosulfate ion to the sulfide ion. The sulfide ion precipitates silver sulfide, a black smelly material. 

The rotating cathode continually puts fresh solution into the cathode film and thus prevents the formation of sulfide. You can not plate out a sound silver deposit from a static fixer plating system. You must have some sort of agitation present that will continually refresh the cathode film. Other methods of agitation, such as ultrasonics or the impingement of solution on the cathode, can be successful.

Even with a rotating cathode, another thing that will cause sulfide to be produced is when the silver concentration in the overall solution becomes depleted beyond a certain level. In practice, they often plate, until the silver reaches a certain level, and then polish the solution by removing the remaining silver in a bucket of steel wool - a cementation reaction.

In most non-cyanide plating solutions, such as those used normally used to plate nickel or copper, the metal ion is positive and is attracted to the cathode. Therefore, agitation is not as critical in these cases. 

For some reason, although gold or silver form negative complex ions in most solutions, here again, agitation is usually not very critical. Probably because there is no secondary reaction (such as the sulfide production in the fixer solution), except for water splitting, that has a high enough cross-section (probability) to occur. The solution keeps plating gold, even though no agitation at all can cause the gold to plate at a lower rate. Water will then split to adjust the difference and maintain the set current flow.

For each valence form of each metal ion, there is a rate of deposition (plating) that will occur when 100% of the amps applied deposit metal, with no side reactions. This is called 100% "efficiency". For silver, which always has a valence (I realize this term is antiquated, but, so am I) of +1, plates, at 100% efficiency, 4.02 (I think) grams per amp per hour. You can never plate silver faster than that. Normally, the lower the valence, the faster it will plate. In a cyanide solution, gold (valence of +1) will plate 3 times faster than out of a chloride system (valence of +3), at 100% efficiencies.

In practice, no metal plates at 100% efficiency. 98+% is about as high as you get from any metal. Bumper-type chrome plates at about 40% efficiency. The reduction in efficiency is always caused by the kicking in of a secondary reaction (or, is it the other way around?), of which water splitting at the cathode, (OH- ion and H2 gas are produced from the water) is the most common , which, in general, causes few problems. I could probably list 20 things that will effect plating efficiency - anode/cathode ratio, anode/cathode spacing, metal concentration(s) in solution, contamination (both organic and inorganic), condition of the cathode surface, agitation (or, lack of), etc., etc.

The anode efficiency (rate of dissolving) can also come into play. The rate of dissolving, at 100% efficiency, is exactly the same number as 100% efficiency plating, which is 4.02 g/amp-hour. For example, if the cathode efficiency is lower than the anode efficiency, the pH will climb. If the anode efficiency is lower, the pH will go down. This is due to the H+ ion (and O2 gas) produced from the water at the anode. If the efficiencies are equal, the pH won't change. The H+ and OH- neutralize each other and form H2O = water.

Sorry I got off on a tangent.

Chris


----------



## Platinum

AR Acid Calculator by forum member IGUTYA. Thanks. :arrow:

Re: amount of nitric acid needed for silver.

Close approximations:
- 7 pounds of silver per gallon of 70% nitric
- 100 tr.oz. per gallon
- 26.4 tr.oz per liter
- 822 grams per liter
- 1 gram per 1.22 ml

For your 110 grams of silver, therefore, it will take about 134 ml of 70% nitric.

For several reasons, these figures never come out to be 100% exact - due to reaction temperature, amount of dilution, actual strength of the concentrated nitric, etc. However, for planning purposes, they are very close. They assume that the dissolving vessel is open and not sealed in any way. They also assume that the 70% nitric has been diluted 50/50 (to 35%) with distilled water when dissolving the silver. When using this 50/50 solution, the volumes above, of course, are doubled. They also assume that the silver is pure to start with.

If the silver contains copper, such as in sterling or coin silver, the approximations will be slightly different, since:
- one gallon of 70% nitric will only dissolve about 2 pounds of copper
- about 4.3 ml of 70% nitric will dissolve 1 gram of copper

For 1 gram of Sterling silver - 92.5/7.5, Ag/Cu:
(1.22 x .925) + (4.3 x .075) = about 1.45 ml of 70% nitric or 2.9 ml of 50/50 nitric

For 1 gram of Coin silver - 90/10, Ag/Cu:
(1.22 x .90) + (4.3 x .10) = about 1.53 ml of 70% nitric or 3.06 ml of 50/50 nitric

Note: The amount of nitric needed to dissolve copper (1 gallon/2 pounds) also can be used as an approximation for some other base metals, such as nickel, zinc, or copper alloys, such as brass. This same figure, 1 gallon/2 pounds, can be approximated when dissolving some base metals, such as copper or iron, in 4 to 1 aqua regia.

Here again, except under very stringent controls, there can be no exact figures given for the amount of acid needed. For planning purposes, however, the above amounts have been proven in practice to be very good approximations. You can use these figures as a starting point and then make adjustments, one way or another, if needed. This is not rocket science. Chris

Everything I can think of about stripping silver from copper.

About the best source for stripping most any metal from any other metal is the plating industry literature. Platers often need to strip faulty plating from a part and then re-plate it. Silver on copper is a problem because most chemicals that dissolve silver will also dissolve copper. In most plating books, the same three methods are listed. Please realize that platers are mainly interested in recovering the parts and not recovering the metal that is stripped. 

(1) 95% concentrated sulfuric, by volume, plus 5% nitric by volume. Although the books tell you to run this at 175F-190F, I have found it will work at room temperature, although a lot slower. Moving the parts around helps. Any water in the solution will increase the attack on the copper. Cover the solution when not in use - concentrated sulfuric is an excellent desiccant and will suck moisture out of the air. The books also tell you to add a little nitric when it slows down. It might help to increase the nitric a few percentage points when making a fresh solution. Getting the silver out is a problem. The best way is probably to dilute the solution and then drop out the silver as silver chloride. I don't know how much dilution is required to do this, but I would guess at least 3 parts water to 1 part acid. To reuse this solution, the water would have to be removed by evaporation.

(2) Another standard solution is to add 30 g/l of sodium nitrate to concentrated sulfuric acid. The silver plated copper parts are made the anode at 3 volts. The temp is from 70F to 110F. I have never tried this. I don't know whether the silver plates out or if it stays in solution.

(3) A solution of 200 g/l (1.7#/gal) sodium thiosulfate, run anodically. They don't give the operating conditions, but I would try about 4 volts to start. Recovering the silver is another problem. You could zinc it out, although I would guess it would have to be diluted first. I tried this solution once and it worked quite well, as I remember, but I didn't try to recover the silver.

You can also strip the silver in a standard, concentrated sulfuric, gold stripping cell. This is mentioned in the original patent (2185858), but it doesn't tell you how to recover the silver.

I once discovered that silver can be stripped in about a 4-6oz/gal sodium cyanide solution that contains a lot of sodium hydroxide. I can't remember how much NaOH, but I think it was between 12-16 oz/gal. This is run at 6 volts and the silver plates out on a stainless cathode. This works very well. For large parts, I used 2 cathode sheets, one on each side of the tank, and put the part in between. For small parts, you need a tumbler. The large amount of NaOH somehow prevents attack on the copper.

It might be interesting to experiment with a solution of about 4-6 oz/gal sodium nitrate and about 8-16 oz/gal NaOH at about 4-6 volts. This is just an educated guess. It may not work at all. If it does work, it may be the best one of all. 

BTW, when I experiment, I always start with the chemicals on the low side and then slowly add more if things look promising - the reason for this should be obvious. The primary rule of experimentation is to NEVER change more than one variable (chemical concentration of only one of the chemicals, temperature, pH, voltage, amperage, stir or not stir, etc.) at a time, for each subsequent experiment. Otherwise, you don't know which of the things you did changed the results. When I experiment, I always make a crude chart and list all the possible variables at the top of the columns, from left to right, and put the experiments (trials) in the rows. The results of each experiment are in the last column (a wide column) on the right - if possible, try to quantitize the results. As you run the experiments, you will start to see trends in the results and then you make adjustments to try and maximize the desired results.

I haven't looked, but you might search Google Patents for this, using various keywords. There may be proprietary chemicals for stripping silver from copper. It so, they would likely be patented. Also, they are likely to be cyanide based. Chris

A little electrolytic systems 101. 

Assume you are plating nickel from a standard Watts nickel plating bath using nickel anodes. This bath contains nickel sulfate, boric acid, and other things and an ideal pH for this bath is 4.3. As you apply current, nickel plates at the cathode and dissolves at the anode. Under perfect conditions, 1.095 grams (I got this number from a plating book) of nickel will dissolve per amp per hour and the same amount will plate out. Electrolytically, this number will never be higher. It is based on Faraday's laws of electrolysis and is determined by the element involved and it's valence in the particular electrolyte. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27 ... ectrolysis
When 1.095 grams of nickel per amp-hr dissolve at the anode, the anode reaction is said to be operating at 100% efficiency. The same with the plating of nickel at the cathode. At 100% efficiency of both electrodes, the system is in perfect balance and the pH will always remain at 4.3.

In practice, these dissolving and plating electrode reactions rarely operate at 100% efficiency. To utilize the entire amount of amperage applied (which must happen), other electrode reactions will occur. The exact blend of these reactions depends on many different variables. The most common of these electrode side reactions is the splitting of water. When water splits at the cathode, H2 gas escapes the solution and OH- ion enters the solution. In this case, since the OH- ion is alkaline, the pH will increase. Water splitting at the anode generates O2 gas, which escapes, and H+ ion, which enters the solution, The H+ ion is acidic and lowers the pH. The amount of water splitting at the 2 electrodes is rarely the same. Therefore, depending on many variables, the pH will usually go up or down - note that if the same amount of water splitting occurs at both electrodes, all of the H+ will combine with all of the OH-, to form water, and the pH won't change. If you use an inert anode (one that doesn't dissolve in the particular electrolyte you're using), 100% of the current applied will split water and the pH will rise. Water splitting is explained pretty well in this link.
http://www.green-planet-solar-energy.co ... lysis.html

Often, there are other reactions that occur. These usually depend on the electrolyte composition and the relative affinities for various reactions to occur. For example, in solutions that contain Cl- ion, Cl2 gas will usually be generated at the anode instead of O2.

This was quite wordy and, in practice, you just need to be aware that these things can happen. It's very hard to predict exactly what will happen in a particular setup. You can only experiment and measure the results. When experimenting, consider these things I've mentioned and start out with your best guess. 

Here are a few of the things that can alter the electrode reactions.

(1) The electrolyte makeup. This includes both the chemicals involved and their concentrations. Low concentrations will certainly alter the electrode reactions, especially at the cathode.
(2) The ratio of the anode surface area to the cathode surface area. In most plating applications, they recommend that the anode surface area be at least twice the cathode surface area.
(3) The temperature.
(4) In certain solutions using certain types of anodes under certain conditions, a chemical film can coat the anode. If the anode is of the soluble type, this film can impede the dissolving of the anode.
(5) The current density. This is defined as the number of amps applied per square inch (or square foot, or square decimeter, or whatever). Most electrode reactions operate most efficiently within a certain current density range.
(6) The voltage. Every metal has a certain minimum threshold voltage required in order for it to plate. The electrolyte has something to do with this also. In most cases, the voltage will be high enough so you don't have to worry about it.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Chris


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## Platinum

Here's something i thought everyone might find interesting. :idea: 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30553181/Extraction-and-Scrubber-Neutralization-of-Acid-Fumes-and-Reaction-Gases




Re: KCN setup questions
I plan on trying out a 1 gallon solution with
160 g of either KCN or NaCN (whatever is cheaper)
53 g of m-nbss
20 mL of 35% H2O2

I have some questions if anyone might be able to help.
What is the expected saturation (i.e. how much gold is expected to be held in 1 gallon)
What is the best method of dropping gold out. Should I just sprinkle in zinc and let settle for 24 hours. Is their a color change, is there a certain amount of time this needs to be done in. I am just looking for some signs to look for. Also is rinsing and boiling the gold with water and h2o2 enough to clean it. I plan on just using a plastic hole filled bucket and placing it into the solution for about 2 minutes and then dunking in another water filled bucket for rinsing (in a fume hood of course) Any comments are accepted as I have never done this before.

You should be able to get about 2 oz of gold dissolved in a gallon of this CN solution.

Since you're using m-NBSS, I would try it first without the peroxide. I might also use a little more m-NBSS. Even though the peroxide will make it strip faster, it will tend to destroy the cyanide. You'll get more life out of the cyanide without the peroxide. I used peroxide but it is tricky to know how much to use - and when. I would also use hot tap water to make up the solution and the start stripping as soon as it is mixed. The "dunking bucket" thing sounds good but go slow with the dunking or you'll slop the solution out. I would put the buckets in plastic trays in case this happens. I would also do a double or triple rinse.

It will be hard to manipulate those buckets under a fume hood. It might be better to do it outside if there are no dogs or other animals around. Try not to spill anything on the ground. Cyanide is sweet and animals like it. I once saw a prize bull eat some grass that had cyanide on it. He got about 10 feet away before he died.

To drop the gold out, first combine the stripping solution and the rinses and raise the pH to 12 with a little NaOH solution - it shouldn't take much. Try not to go above 12 or it will take more zinc. I you don't have a way of checking pH, add about an ounce of NaOH per gallon. 

Next, sprinkle on the zinc. I would do this using one of those small flour sifters, that you squeeze, to break up any clumps. It should take somewhere between 1 to 2 times as much zinc as you have gold - weigh the zinc you think you need before putting it into the flour sifter. Stir constantly. Try to rig up a stirrer that lifts the solution. You get better stirring action and you can see the color of the precipitate as you raise it up from the bottom. A cheap plastic plunger will work - or course, don't stick the plunger on the bottom. Go slow or you will slop the solution out on the upstroke. 

When the gold has all been dropped, there are two visual indicators. First, the foam created by stirring will usually go from yellow to white, but that isn't always reliable. When the gold starts to drop, the powder seen when stirring will be brown. At some point, when most of the gold has dropped, the color will start turning gray from the excess zinc. When you see no brown and the powder is fully gray, stop adding the zinc.

I let the powder settle overnight. Sometimes, though, some of the gold can redissolve. To prevent this, I hung a zinc bar in the solution.

Either siphon, pour, or dip off the solution away from the settled powder. I usually siphoned off as much as I could and then dipped the rest out. Filter the powder and rinse it several times to get the cyanide solution out of it, preferably with hot water. Put the powder, filter paper and all, into a bucket. UNDER THE FUME HOOD, cover the powder with water and add a very small quantity of nitric acid from a small beaker. You should see an immediate reaction when the nitric attacks the zinc. When the reaction slows down, sir it and add a little more nitric and repeat. When an addition of nitric produces no reaction, stop adding nitric.

After stripping, you are very likely to have some copper dissolved in the solution. The copper will also drop with the zinc. Nitric is about the only thing that will dissolve both the Cu and Zn. Either weak sulfuric or HCl will dissolve the Zn but not the Cu. I don't know where the H2O2 idea came from.

The remaining gold powder should be brown at this point. Filter it, rinse it well, and then purify the powder using the standard aqua regia process.

Good luck! Chris.


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## Anonymous

Hello All, I'm Newbie. This THE BEssssstttttttttttt Forum, thanks so muuch :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## blueduck

Its nice to see this thread just keeps on growing! Though it used to email me when it had a new post, perhaps it will again....lol

William
Idaho


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## Oz

bangde92 said:


> My x-20 irons
> 
> But, why do I love my wholesale golf x-20's? Wel, the rest of the story is this. I had a heart attack in November. As I was recovering, at every visit back to my doctor, I begged for and worked toward his release to once again play the game I love ishiner. When I finally was allowed, I found that I had lost a lot of strength which is normal for heart patients. But, I was determined to play again. It ws decided that I could try grpahite shafts.



Amazed, do these people think this will sell something instead of cause product aversion?


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## Palladium

Just something i dug up from an old cd back up. http://www.scribd.com/doc/44033663


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## DarkspARCS

so....*sniff*.... beautiful...... 

but so ...... not...... there..... I feel like the man in that twilight zone series that came up from the library basement just to find myself the last man on earth!

*pushes in glasses*

'OH THOSE BOOKS, MY BEAUTIFUL BOOKS!' 

*stacks books* 

'A BOOK A DAY FORTHE REST OF MY YEARS!'

*pushes in glasses*

'WHICH TO READ FIRST?!'

*clinck..rattle.. crunch*

'MY GLASSES?...'

'NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!'


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## Palladium

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=10799

If you have a nitric acid rich aqua regia, containing Au + 3 as chloroauric acid, what will first happen is that you will get a coarse precipitate of high quality gold upon the addition of the sulfite or SO2. Sulfites are acid instable and will immediately form sulfurous acid (which has an equilibrium with water and sulfur dioxide). 
The gold is a very strong oxidant and will oxidize the SO2 or sulfito anion to sulfate, SO4 2- while being reduced to Au(0). This will get perhaps 90% of the gold from solution. Then, as you continue to add the sulfite or SO2 and the reaction heats up, you notice a more prominent display of the competing side reaction: instead of more gold precipitating, the higher temperature has made the free nitric acid a strong enough oxidizing agent to attack the sulfite. In the process, nitrate turns into NOx (mostly NO2) with the loss of an electron. It isn't a high efficiency reduction, and it takes much sulfite to effect the complete reduction of the nitrate anion. This only happens with acid conditions: you can bubble sulfur dioxide through sodium nitrate solution and nothing will happen, no NOx will be formed. It also takes heat: if SO2 is bubbled through cold nitric acid with calcium nitrate present the precipitate will be miniscule of sulfite/sulfate, but when heated, it is pronounced as the potentials have shifted (both kinetics and thermodynamics are increased towards favoring oxidation of sulfite by nitrate). Also occurring is the continuous re-dissolution of the microfine gold crystals that are precipitating from solution by the residual aqua regia extant in the system. You still have aqua regia, and it is hot, so the gold will be dissolving/oxidizing again as quickly as it gets reduced. This continuous reprecipitation process prevents proper ripening/growth of the precipitate and the base metal concentration relative to gold is now higher than in the beginning, so it is statistically more likely for the gold precipitated to be of less quality with more base metals entrained. This is why the last gold that comes out of solution is dirtiest and the finest (in size) powder. The darker and higher surface area the gold, usually the less purity it will have. A very pure gold precipitate will be almost fluffy and very blonde.


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=10782&p=104758&hilit=amount+nitric+silver#p104758

NOTE: I wrote all this before seeing your last post and assumed that your solution only contained nitric and water. However, at least you can now see things can be calculated. When you make up a fresh batch, you can easily test for chlorides with a drop of silver nitrate (Note: I originally said HCl here and this was edited). A white cloud indicates the presence of chlorides. Be very careful with this super strong nitric, as it will burn you bad.

Actually, the specific gravity is 1.5 g/ml (not 15) and therefore a liter will weigh 1.5 x 1000 = 1500 grams.

When using 70%, it will take about 1.2 ml to dissolve a gram of silver and about 4 ml to dissolve a gram of copper.

To determine how much stronger your acid is than 70%: 

One liter of your 95% acid weighs 1500 ml. Therefore, the total weight of nitric in one liter is 1500 x .95 = 1425 grams. 

The molecular weight of nitric, HNO3, is close to 63, as we'll soon discover. 
(1) HNO3 contains 1 hydrogen, 1 nitrogen, and 3 oxygens. 
(2) Look up the atomic weights of these 3 elements - H=1, N=14, and O=16. 
(3) Therefore, you have 1x1 + 1x14 + 3x16 = 63. 
(4) When expressed in grams, this number, 63 (in this case) is called a MOL. Therefore one MOL of HNO3 weighs 63 grams. 
(5) Therefore, there are 1425/63 = 22.6 MOLs in one liter of 95%.

I won't go into the math but, one liter of 70% HNO3 contains about 15.8 MOLs of nitric. Therefore, your 95% acid is 22.6/15.8 = 1.43 times stronger than the 70%. Therefore, it will only take 1/1.43 = .70 or 70% as much - 1.2 x .7 = .84ml/g of silver or 4 x .7 = 2.8ml/g of copper.

Please note that, on the chart, the S.G. doesn't change much with the higher percentages of nitric. Therefore, a small error in volume measurement can make a big difference in the percentage estimate. Therefore, the figures we've calculated should only be used as a guide. The most accurate way to determine the HNO3% would be a simple titration.


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=7324&p=66438&hilit=silver+sulfide+nitric#p66438

His discussion of silver flake, plated out of photo fixer, is very poor and incomplete. When dry, the lowest Ag content I've seen was about 80%. The best ran about 98% Ag. The 80% variety was black, powdery, and smelled strongly of sulfur (silver sulfide). The 98% stuff was hard, white, metallic, brittle, a little bit nodular, and usually about 1/8" thick, more or less. Usually, the Ag is somewhat between these limits and shares some of both sets of characteristics. It is usually wet, especially the lower quality stuff, and must be dried before weighing - I usually put it in a steel pan on a hotplate - it really stinks, so do this outside. It can be easily melted with very little loss in the slag. While melting with borax, several pieces of rebar, about 24" long, are placed in the crucible. They are then removed before pouring. The iron combines with the sulfur and goes into the slag. The resulting silver can be quite pure

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7266&hilit=so2+gas#p65892
There are several ways to successfully refine karat golds. Let me preface this by saying that I truly believe that your method of inquartation and, finally, boiling down is the absolute best method for the members of this forum to use. The reason being is that, if they follow your instructions, this method will work each and every time. For this reason, there will be less frustration for the beginners. Also, since you had to satisfy your customers, I think that your choice of method was the best. However, since the gold I worked was already mine, I never inquarted or boiled down and never will. And, I would bet that our final products were equally pure. Also, I have very successfully used the "minimum amount of nitric" method for 30 years and I don't think you would put me into the category of a hobby refiner.

To everyone else, here's a little of my history and the history of this method:

(1) My first true experience in big time refining started in 1968, when I was hired as Senior Chemist for a new refinery in LA. At that time, this was the largest gold refinery West of the Mississippi. This same company was also the world's largest seller of precious metals plating systems. I was in charge of manufacturing the plating solutions, routinely analyzing and troubleshooting plating systems for our some 1500 customers, assaying refining lots (about 100 fire assays per day), and developing refining systems. Since we were using the refined gold to make plating salts, the necessary gold purity was 9999. At first, the company had big problems producing this purity. They were using AR, ferrous sulfate or SO2, and Wohlwill cells. They didn't want to inquart or boil down because of the time involved and the additional dissolving equipment that was needed. 

For about the first six months, our gold was only pure enough to sell - about 9995. To make the plating salts, we had to buy expensive 9999 gold on the open market. Most of the gold we were refining (usually powder) came from processing electronic materials and the workers used premixed AR. I eventually discovered a unique chelating agent that would drop 9999 gold. It actually worked better with a lot of extra nitric in the AR and it chelated the base metals, kept them in solution, and prevented them from contaminating the precipitated gold. This eliminated any need for inquartation, boiling down, or Wohlwill cells. At that point, my method was adopted and was used to refine hundreds of thousands of ounces of 9999 gold, over a period of several years. 

The chelating agent was expensive, however, and, it could have been eliminated or reduced, had I known about the "minimum nitric" (and, purifying in the melt) method at that time.

(2) I started my own refinery in about 1972 and used the chelating agent to drop the gold. In 1979, I went to work for a guy that used the "minimum nitric" method. He and David Fell were childhood friends and had worked together for the largest karat gold refiner in LA - where they learned the business. I don't know if Dave also used the method or if my boss had invented it. I do know that I have never heard of any other refiner using it and have never seen it in print. My boss used twelve 4 liter beakers (each with a cover and attached exhaust hose that took all the fumes to a manifold and then to a scrubber) to dissolve the gold and, in 1979-1980, we had so much karat gold scrap that the 12 beakers were always being used. We also sometimes used a 50 gallon glass-lined, steam-heated Pfaudler kettle, when we were over-burdened with too much scrap for the beakers. 

His method was to first cover the karat gold jewelry (as is) with HCl and heat it. Then, he would add a splash of HNO3 from a gallon jug and let it react. This was repeated until an addition of HNO3 produced no reaction. At this point, either it all was dissolved or more HCl was needed. He would then add more HCl. If nothing happened, it was finished. If the HCl produced a reaction, he let it work until the reaction subsided and then added more nitric. He used the HCl and HNO3 separately, back and forth, until there was no reaction from an addition of either. He never estimated or measured either acid, yet never overshot the nitric. He had done this so many times, he just knew, by looking, when he had added the right amount. He dropped the gold with sodium sulfite and cleaned the gold with fluxes in a gas crucible furnace. If he couldn't get the gold to at least 9995 (maybe 5% of the lots), he used a big set of 6" rolls to roll the bar super thin and then quickly redissolved it in AR. From start to finish, the gold was always done in one day - usually 8 to 5.

Anything that didn't dissolve in the AR (maybe 5%) was accumulated and treated separately at a later date. He had a quirk that he didn't want anyone to rinse the yellow out of the filter papers. They were accumulated and burned and the yield was used to throw a party. Since all the gold was already bought and paid for, he didn't have to satisfy anyone as far as the yield was concerned. It was a fun place to work.

(3) When I owned my next refinery, I started estimating the amounts of acids needed. This was mainly done to make sure I had an excess of HCl to start with. That way, I didn't have to do the back-and-forth thing with the acids. When an addition of HNO3 produced no reaction, I knew it was finished. For karat gold, instead of using the customary 120 ml of HCl/ounce, I used 150 ml. I didn't worry about the nitric, since I was good enough by then to know when I had added exactly enough. I usually measured it out into a beaker, though, as a precaution against having a brain f**t and dumping in too much by adding it straight from the jug.

(4) To use the "minimum nitric" method, you should keep these things in mind:

(a) Any mixture of HCl and HNO3 will dissolve gold. You don't need 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 AR. As an example, for one certain type of application, I always used a 50% Nitric/45% water/5% HCl to dissolve the gold.

(b) When dissolving a quantity of metal, both the HCl and HNO3 are consumed at definite rates for each. In the case of gold, when only one of the acids has been totally used up, the dissolution of the gold will cease.

(c) For dissolving gold or gold alloys, I haven't pre-mixed aqua regia for the last 30 years and will never do it again. When you pre-mix it, it is very likely that you'll need to use urea or to boil-down, both of which I have a tremendous aversion for.

(5) I'm not going to go into details on using this method, since I have gone over it many times on this forum. All I will say is that it is simple and fast (especially when the alternative is boiling-down) and it works. Like Steve just said, you just have to adjust your mentality. Chris

I constantly face a situation where the client wants to refine gold, mostly from jewelery scrap. Again they are paying on assay so inquarting is not used as any gold remaining in the chlorides is recovered in the reduced chlorides bar. But these guys are not chemists, and they need a number. I can't tell them to do what GSP just explained, they want a concrete number. 

So I have to give them a number, the number I work off of is 1 liter of acid will digest 7.5 troy ounces of karat scrap, any karat. I then tell them to make up acid at a ratio of 4:1. So if you have 7.5 ounces, divide 1000 by 7.5 and come up with 133.3 ml per ounce, total acid. Divided by 5 gives you 26.6 ml for Nitric and times 4 gives you 106.6 ml Hydrochloric. This number proves to be close, and generally provides a good digestion. (If silver is under 8%) Often when doing diamond removal, the scrap is not melted first (for obvious reasons) and some pieces stubbornly resist digestion. I have found that after the acid has had a good boil and is no longer blowing red, an addition of 10% of the startup Hydrochloric will again kick off the nitric reaction and result in a more complete digestion. Kind of counter intuitive to add HCl to get the solution to blow red again, but it's the free HCL that matters here.

These guys always have nitric left over after digestion. It's a production environment and often some of these guys have "refiners" who aren't the sharpest crayons in the box. If they haul their wastes, I suggest adding urea prills. If they treat their waste, I do not. Then we gas with SO2 and gas off the nitric. Never do they boil down to remove nitric. 

If there were an easy works every time formulation to use I would use it, but I think for the most part the readers of this forum are better informed and more responsible and capable of not using too much nitric and that is the best approach, as masterfully spelled out by GSP. 4Metals


rewalston wrote:
when force drying gold, I'm assuming that you heat it while it is in the beaker that it was precipitated in? Also is there a clear indicator as to when the gold powder has been dried sufficiently?


That's correct. Washing and drying take place without removing the gold, reducing the chance of loss or contamination. 

As for drying, it will be perfectly obvious to you when the gold is dry, and even more obvious why you are admonished to incinerate substances when switching between acids, and you don't wish to dissolve values. 

As the water evaporates, the color of the precipitated gold changes, getting lighter. Before that happens, you should be swirling the gold regularly, to prevent sticking to the beaker. This will make sense once you've been there, done that. 

Once dry, continue to heat the gold. You're not finished, yet. As the temperature rises, you'll notice vapors, or light smoke, comes from the gold. There are substances that stick with the gold doggedly. What they are I have no idea, but it will be quite obvious that there is a presence of acid, assuming you (lightly) sniff the fumes. Heat until you no longer see the vapors, then allow the beaker to cool. Do not remove and place on a cold surface, for that will cause thermal fracturing of the beaker. 

I heated my beakers on a gas hotplate. I had a pad of asbestos between the beaker(s) and the flame, to limit uneven heating. The pads of which I speak used to be readily available from chemical supply houses. That is no longer the case, due to asbestos no longer being available. They likely have a replacement material now that performs the same function. 

Harold


Waste treatment for the small refiner. 4Metals

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1300&p=40800#p40800

Most of the practicing alchemists on this forum generate waste liquids which, if you have the time and desire, can be neutralized and made free of toxic metals rather simply. The required supplies are simply a pH meter, a few plastic tanks (15 gallon size is ideal), an aquarium air pump and some tubing, slab of copper, some scrap iron. The advantage you have in being a small producer is that you have the time to let the solutions sit and react before proceeding to the next step. Because of this you do not need expensive pH controllers or a filter press and the associated pumps. 

The procedure that follows is for your acid waste only, it is not for cyanide or leaching type wastes, only the spent acids used to digest the metals you have refined. 

Select a plastic tank to use as a holding tank for your spent acid, if it is translucent it makes it easy to see how full it is. This tank should have a lid to keep out rainwater and it should be kept where it will not freeze. What we will do in this tank is a process called cementation, whereby you hang a slab of copper metal in the waste acid to displace any precious metals which may still be in solution. When the tank is approaching full, maybe a few inches from the top, the copper is suspended in the tank and the solution is agitated to expose the copper to as much solution as possible. An easy and inexpensive trick is to buy an aquarium pump and some tubing and weigh the end of the hose down so it is close to the bottom of the tank and let it bubble away. Overnight should suffice. The copper bar will have displaced any PM’s in the solution which will settle to the bottom. Don’t expect a lot of material to settle from each load, but in time the material on the bottom is collected and refined for values. Allow the solution to settle after removing the bubbler and the copper bar, a few hours should do it. Now siphon the acid into another tank, being careful not to suck out any of the settled material. Usually a few inches of solution left on the bottom will prevent you from sucking out the solids and it is just left in the tank as you start to accumulate more waste acid. 

A simple siphon device to prevent siphoning all the way to the bottom can be easily made as follows; cut a length of ½” CPVC pipe about 24” long, glue on a tee, followed by a 6” piece of pipe and a cap on the end. I prefer to use half inch “copper pipe sized” CPVC because it is nice and slim and easy to find tubing to slip over the end. Now you will need some flexible tubing to slip snugly over the end of the pipe opposite the capped end, about 4 or 5 feet will do. You will now have a hose and a short length of pipe which has an opening (because of the tee) 6” from the capped end. To start a siphon, place a finger over the hole in the tee and fill the entire hose and pipe with fresh water, then quickly submerge the capped end and place the end of the hose lower than the solution level in the tank. With this setup you don’t have to worry about sucking the solids off the bottom of the tank. One drawback is the tank you are siphoning from has to be higher than the tank you are siphoning to, so you’ll have to lift the full cementation tank on to a table to siphon it completely. 

This second step can boil over if you’re not careful so I would transfer the liquid from the 15 gallon cementation tank into a 30 gallon tank if you’re going to process this all at once. Add your air bubbler to the 30 gallon tank and start bubbling. Check your pH, it should be close to zero when you start. Slowly add soda ash to the bubbling liquid, it will foam and generate CO2 so be careful not to boil it over, since an aquarium pump doesn’t move the liquid aggressively, add the soda ash slowly and stir with a pvc pipe occasionally to make sure it all is dissolving. Slowly over the course of a day or two raise the pH to 2.5. 

Now you will add scrap iron to the tank, it can be done by placing the pieces of iron directly in the tank and fishing them out later, (needless to say with rubber gloves on) or you can get a plastic tank that fits into the 30 gallon tank, drill holes in it on the sides and bottom, and immerse the iron in all at once. The iron will displace copper and other metals from solution and slowly dissolve in the liquid. The iron will get coated up and a good shaking will remove the coating from the iron. After a few hours, the solution will have a green tea look to it which is ferric chloride. If you leave the iron in longer it will continue to dissolve so remove it and rinse it well. The copper and other metals will accumulate on the bottom of the 30 gallon tank where they are from time to time collected and dried. 

You now use the siphon device to siphon the liquid to a final tank. Your primary contaminant now is iron. You can raise the pH with sodium hydroxide and the iron will drop out of solution which is quite easy to recognize. Unfortunately this liquid is a bit gel like and doesn’t filter well. A better way is to raise the pH with Magnesium hydroxide, the resultant sludge settles better and dries nicely. You cannot measure the pH of the reaction while adding magnesium hydroxide because it is slow to change the pH and you will over add, just go slowly and when you get the color change you’ll know the iron has dropped out. Let the iron settle and you can siphon off the now clear liquid to discard. 4metals

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3393&p=28720&hilit=polyester+cloth+strip+filter#p28720

(A) Here's a method a friend of mine used for difficult-to-filter material. I used it a few times and it worked pretty well. He used a plastic colander for the funnel and put about 10-20 large restaurant sized coffee filters in it, to start with. When the filter started clogging, he lifted the top paper slightly, carefully punched a small hole or two in the bottom of it, raised it carefully and allowed the liquid to drain into the second paper. Most of the solids stay in the first paper. He then removed the first paper and repeated with the second paper. Fresh unfiltered solution was added as needed. Eventually, everything gets filtered. 

(B) Here's one that I invented. It worked great for most anything, but especially sludges. Get a piece of cloth that is impervious to the solution you're filtering. I found that heavy polyester worked the best. I got it at Wal-Mart. You'll need a strip about 1" wide and 3 or 4 feet long. 
(1) Place an empty 5 gal. bucket on the floor. 
(2) Wet and squeeze out the strip of cloth with water. In a second bucket, run the strip of cloth across the inside bottom, up the side, and over the edge. It should hang over the edge about 2', or so. 
(3) Add the sludge that you want to filter to the second bucket. Be careful not the disturb the strip of cloth. Don't fill it more than about 40% full. 
(4) Place a clean third bucket on the floor, next to the first bucket. 
(5) Place the second bucket in the first bucket, at an angle, so it stays on top of the first bucket. Adjust the angle of the second bucket so that the sludge is near the lip. You may have to wiggle the second bucket carefully, side to side, to make the sludge sit smoothly. 
(6) The end of the strip of cloth should hang into the third bucket. The end of the strip must be lower than the bottom of the first bucket. Clear filtered solution will soon start dripping off the tip of the cloth into the third bucket. 

The most difficult thing I've ever filtered was the black gelatin sludge off of x-ray film. I once loaded about 2 gallons of this sludge in the above filter system. By morning, the sludge was nearly bone dry - very slightly damp. For a rinse, I could have added water to the sludge, mixed it well, and then repeated the filtering. 

The cloth never clogs. Instead of catching the particles, it removes the liquid through the cells of the cloth. It uses the principles of capillary action and it also siphons the solution through the cells. 

This is only one of the many arrangements of the "wick" filter that I came up with. It might go faster if, instead of a strip of cloth, one used a piece of cloth about a foot wide. The cloth hanging over the edge could be cut in 12 strips an inch wide. In my experiments, I found that, if the numbers of drip points was increased, it went faster. 

Since I wanted to filter aqua regia with this, the first cloth I bought was polyester. After "wick" filtering, the AR solution was faintly cloudy. This could possibly have been remedied by using cloth of a higher thread count. 

(C) Another way is to blend a filter aid with the sludge before filtering. Diatomaceous Earth (DE) is commonly used. Or, you make a slurry with some DE, filter it, and then place the sludge on top of it. These methods sometimes work and sometimes don't work. I never cared much for it. 

(D) There are also chemicals that, when added, will improve settling. I think they are called agglomerating agents. One of the alums is an common example. There are many of these and the success of most is dependent on the solution composition. When you can find one that works, it can work quite well. Chris


Re: amount of nitric acid needed
Close approximations:
- 7 pounds of silver per gallon of 70% nitric
- 100 tr.oz. per gallon
- 26.4 tr.oz per liter
- 822 grams per liter
- 1 gram per 1.22 ml

For your 110 grams of silver, therefore, it will take about 134 ml of 70% nitric.

For several reasons, these figures never come out to be 100% exact - due to reaction temperature, amount of dilution, actual strength of the concentrated nitric, etc. However, for planning purposes, they are very close. They assume that the dissolving vessel is open and not sealed in any way. They also assume that the 70% nitric has been diluted 50/50 (to 41%) with distilled water when dissolving the silver. When using this 50/50 solution, the volumes above, of course, are doubled. They also assume that the silver is pure to start with.

If the silver contains copper, such as in sterling or coin silver, the approximations will be slightly different, since:
- one gallon of 70% nitric will only dissolve about 2 pounds of copper
- about 4.3 ml of 70% nitric will dissolve 1 gram of copper

For 1 gram of Sterling silver - 92.5/7.5, Ag/Cu:
(1.22 x .925) + (4.3 x .075) = about 1.45 ml of 70% nitric or 2.9 ml of 50/50 nitric

For 1 gram of Coin silver - 90/10, Ag/Cu:
(1.22 x .90) + (4.3 x .10) = about 1.53 ml of 70% nitric or 3.06 ml of 50/50 nitric

Note: The amount of nitric needed to dissolve copper (1 gallon/2 pounds) also can be used as an approximation for some other base metals, such as nickel, zinc, or copper alloys, such as brass. This same figure, 1 gallon/2 pounds, can be approximated when dissolving some base metals, such as copper or iron, in 4 to 1 aqua regia.

Here again, except under very stringent controls, there can be no exact figures given for the amount of acid needed. For planning purposes, however, the above amounts have been proven in practice to be very good approximations. You can use these figures as a starting point and then make adjustments, one way or another, if needed. This is not rocket science.

Actually, the SG of 70% is 1.42 or, about 11.8#/gal

If you search the internet, you will find at least 4 different equations given for the dissolving of silver with nitric acid:
(1) 3Ag + 4HNO3 = 3AgNO3 + NO + 2H2O
(2) 4Ag + 6HNO3 = 4AgNO3 + NO + NO2 + 3H2O
(3) 2Ag + 3HNO3 = 2AgNO3 + HNO2 + H2O
(4) Ag + 2HNO3 = AgNO3 + NO2 + H2O

(1) was given by machiavelli976. I don't know his source.

(2), I found here: http://www.saltlakemetals.com/Solubilit ... itrate.htm

(3) and (4), here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 113AAa89Mt 
He gives a BASF site as his reference, although I couldn't find it. (4) is when using strong nitric and (3) for weak nitric. He doesn't say how weak, but I think I have seen other references that, to satisfy this equation, the nitric would have to be very weak.

In (1), the Molar ratio of HNO3/Ag is 4:3. In (2) and (3), it is 3:2. In (4), it is 2:1. Big differences in nitric usage.

The 134 ml of nitric I gave to dissolve 110 grams of silver is about a 2:1 Molar ratio - equation (4). The 134 ml of nitric is about 2.1 Moles (.134 x 15.6) and the 110 grams of silver is about 1.02 Moles (110/107.87), for a Molar ratio of 2.06:1

The equation (or combination of equations) that actually fits the bill is dependent on the conditions - mainly temperature, nitric acid strength, and whether or not the gases produced are condensed and re-enter the solution. Also, on the forum, there has been discussion of adding H2O2 to continually convert the gases back to HNO3. In this case, it is theoretically possible to get close to a HNO3/Ag Molar ratio of 1:1 and, therefore, only require half as much nitric. Ag + HNO3 + ? = AgNO3 + ? Call this Equation (5).

I have made up solutions for 30 gallon silver cells many times. For the silver (200 oz), I used pure silver and calculated the nitric needed based on a 2:1 Molar ratio (Eq. 4) or, 7 pounds of silver per gallon of nitric. I shotted the Ag and divided it equally in 2 buckets. I then diluted the nitric with distilled water, 50/50, and added it to the buckets (in increments, at first, to prevent it from foaming over - it also got quite hot). The next morning, the reaction was complete and there was always 1 or 2 oz of Ag undissolved. This was probably due to the fact that I was using tech grade HNO3, which was only about 67%. Having a little undissolved silver was ideal, since I didn't want a bunch of excess nitric in the cell solution.

For the copper, I used clean copper electrical wire and based the nitric usage on 2# of copper per gallon. Same result. I ended up with a little undissolved copper in the morning.

All of this proved to me that Eq (4), with a 2:1 Molar ratio was right on, UNDER THE CONDITIONS I WAS USING - hot; open container; strong acid solution, etc. It also proved to me that, under these common conditions, 1 gallon of nitric would dissolve either 7 pounds of silver or 2 pounds of copper. I love these numbers, since they are very easy to remember. Chris

Waste treatment for the small refiner. 


Most of the practicing alchemists on this forum generate waste liquids which, if you have the time and desire, can be neutralized and made free of toxic metals rather simply. The required supplies are simply a pH meter, a few plastic tanks (15 gallon size is ideal), an aquarium air pump and some tubing, slab of copper, some scrap iron. The advantage you have in being a small producer is that you have the time to let the solutions sit and react before proceeding to the next step. Because of this you do not need expensive pH controllers or a filter press and the associated pumps. 

The procedure that follows is for your acid waste only, it is not for cyanide or leaching type wastes, only the spent acids used to digest the metals you have refined. 

Select a plastic tank to use as a holding tank for your spent acid, if it is translucent it makes it easy to see how full it is. This tank should have a lid to keep out rainwater and it should be kept where it will not freeze. What we will do in this tank is a process called cementation, whereby you hang a slab of copper metal in the waste acid to displace any precious metals which may still be in solution. When the tank is approaching full, maybe a few inches from the top, the copper is suspended in the tank and the solution is agitated to expose the copper to as much solution as possible. An easy and inexpensive trick is to buy an aquarium pump and some tubing and weigh the end of the hose down so it is close to the bottom of the tank and let it bubble away. Overnight should suffice. The copper bar will have displaced any PM’s in the solution which will settle to the bottom. Don’t expect a lot of material to settle from each load, but in time the material on the bottom is collected and refined for values. Allow the solution to settle after removing the bubbler and the copper bar, a few hours should do it. Now siphon the acid into another tank, being careful not to suck out any of the settled material. Usually a few inches of solution left on the bottom will prevent you from sucking out the solids and it is just left in the tank as you start to accumulate more waste acid. 

A simple siphon device to prevent siphoning all the way to the bottom can be easily made as follows; cut a length of ½” CPVC pipe about 24” long, glue on a tee, followed by a 6” piece of pipe and a cap on the end. I prefer to use half inch “copper pipe sized” CPVC because it is nice and slim and easy to find tubing to slip over the end. Now you will need some flexible tubing to slip snugly over the end of the pipe opposite the capped end, about 4 or 5 feet will do. You will now have a hose and a short length of pipe which has an opening (because of the tee) 6” from the capped end. To start a siphon, place a finger over the hole in the tee and fill the entire hose and pipe with fresh water, then quickly submerge the capped end and place the end of the hose lower than the solution level in the tank. With this setup you don’t have to worry about sucking the solids off the bottom of the tank. One drawback is the tank you are siphoning from has to be higher than the tank you are siphoning to, so you’ll have to lift the full cementation tank on to a table to siphon it completely. 

This second step can boil over if you’re not careful so I would transfer the liquid from the 15 gallon cementation tank into a 30 gallon tank if you’re going to process this all at once. Add your air bubbler to the 30 gallon tank and start bubbling. Check your pH, it should be close to zero when you start. Slowly add soda ash to the bubbling liquid, it will foam and generate CO2 so be careful not to boil it over, since an aquarium pump doesn’t move the liquid aggressively, add the soda ash slowly and stir with a pvc pipe occasionally to make sure it all is dissolving. Slowly over the course of a day or two raise the pH to 2.5. 

Now you will add scrap iron to the tank, it can be done by placing the pieces of iron directly in the tank and fishing them out later, (needless to say with rubber gloves on) or you can get a plastic tank that fits into the 30 gallon tank, drill holes in it on the sides and bottom, and immerse the iron in all at once. The iron will displace copper and other metals from solution and slowly dissolve in the liquid. The iron will get coated up and a good shaking will remove the coating from the iron. After a few hours, the solution will have a green tea look to it which is ferric chloride. If you leave the iron in longer it will continue to dissolve so remove it and rinse it well. The copper and other metals will accumulate on the bottom of the 30 gallon tank where they are from time to time collected and dried. 

You now use the siphon device to siphon the liquid to a final tank. Your primary contaminant now is iron. You can raise the pH with sodium hydroxide and the iron will drop out of solution which is quite easy to recognize. Unfortunately this liquid is a bit gel like and doesn’t filter well. A better way is to raise the pH with Magnesium hydroxide, the resultant sludge settles better and dries nicely. You cannot measure the pH of the reaction while adding magnesium hydroxide because it is slow to change the pH and you will over add, just go slowly and when you get the color change you’ll know the iron has dropped out. Let the iron settle and you can siphon off the now clear liquid to discard.

When the iron is finished displacing the base metals all that is left in solution is iron. The iron drops out at a pH of 3 to 3.5 leaving the solution barren of metals. The pH will have to be raised to around 7 before discharging it. I have used this procedure in more than 1 refinery and have tested the water before discharging for metals and never had an issue. Today most municipalities have standards for discharging water to ground or sewer, it is wise to know what the governing standards are and have a typical batch of waste tested by a lab using an Atomic Absorption Spec. just to be sure.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=14301#p143563
Processing anode slimes:
a- Let the anode bags with slimes dry up.
b- Incinerate the anode bag and powder (if you use a torch, be careful not to blow away the very fine powder)
c- Cover with 50/50 nitric and boil for 5-10 minutes. This step will remove left over silver, copper and palladium.
d- Upon cooling and settling, decant the bulk of the solution and pass it on to recover the above mentioned values. Repeat this nitric leach if needed.
e- Wash the left over powder with d. water once or twice (this is optional if you can't or won't wait for it to settle nicely to the bottom, but bare in mind it may have consequences later on in this process)
f- Cover the powder with HCl and slowly heat the beaker.
g- Once hot, start adding nitric acid drop wise and notice the reaction. Keep adding nitric acid until no more solids dissolve (remember that in most cases, you will end up with some silver chloride, so don't mistake it to be gold or platinum)
h- When dissolution is over and the beaker had cooled slightly, add some ice cubes and water, enough to dilute the solution 3-4 times over and let it sit for about 20-30 minutes
i- Filter the solution while it is still somewhat cold, that should rid the solution of silver almost completely.
j- Precipitate the gold with SMB.
k- The following day, seperate the gold powder from the liquid and test the solution with SnCl for dissolved platinum. If positive for Pt, add Aluminum or Zinc shaving to cement it (careful, H2S gas released in this reaction).

end products:
A solution of Ag, Cu and Pd and maybe some Pt (step c)
gold powder (step j)
platinum powder (step k)

Collect and accumulate these products for later refining.

Good luck
Sam


----------



## machiavelli976

Palladium said:


> Just something i dug up from an old cd back up. http://www.scribd.com/doc/44033663



Thank you sir !


----------



## g_axelsson

Palladium said:


> Just something i dug up from an old cd back up. http://www.scribd.com/doc/44033663


Thanks... and for clarity and ease of searching, it's the Platinumill user manual.

Göran


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## necromancer

AWESOME thread, took me days to read it all. well worth a bump !!


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## solar_plasma

Just...WOW! Thank you Palladium! Since weeks I am searching for some forum gold nuggets, I haven't read before. In this thread you present them on a silver plate.


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## solar_plasma

In the procedure for waste treatment there is lacking the raising to a high pH in order to precipitate hydroxides of all left over metals, followed by neutralization, isn't it?


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## macfixer01

Although it doesn't deal specifically with refining, the McMaster Carr catalog is useful since it contains virtually anything you might need. I recently came across their catalog #118 online as a PDF file, but it's just too big to upload (approx 3800 pages and over 900MB file size). I'll just mention it's available on the recently resurrected Demonoid bittorrent site, and probably others also. Anyone interested can search for it here:

http://demonoid.ph/files/

As an example of the quality though, I extracted and attached just the wire cloth section here (pages 409-420).

macfixer01


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## goldsilverpro

Glad to see Demonoid back. They were shut down for a long time. Thanks.


----------



## necromancer

macfixer01 said:


> Although it doesn't deal specifically with refining, the McMaster Carr catalog is useful since it contains virtually anything you might need. I recently came across their catalog #118 online as a PDF file, but it's just too big to upload (approx 3800 pages and over 900MB file size). I'll just mention it's available on the recently resurrected Demonoid bittorrent site, and probably others also. Anyone interested can search for it here:
> 
> http://demonoid.ph/files/
> 
> As an example of the quality though, I extracted and attached just the wire cloth section here (pages 409-420).
> 
> macfixer01



i just downloaded this file in EXE format, which installs the torntv installer.

it gave me a virus warning + installed 3 browser hijack programs. i did not download the standalone torrent but please be aware of the torntv installer

full file name:

McMaster-Carr_Catalog_#118_in_PDF_-_3779_Pages_Total.exe


----------



## macfixer01

necromancer said:


> macfixer01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Although it doesn't deal specifically with refining, the McMaster Carr catalog is useful since it contains virtually anything you might need. I recently came across their catalog #118 online as a PDF file, but it's just too big to upload (approx 3800 pages and over 900MB file size). I'll just mention it's available on the recently resurrected Demonoid bittorrent site, and probably others also. Anyone interested can search for it here:
> 
> http://demonoid.ph/files/
> 
> As an example of the quality though, I extracted and attached just the wire cloth section here (pages 409-420).
> 
> macfixer01
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i just downloaded this file in EXE format, which installs the torntv installer.
> 
> it gave me a virus warning + installed 3 browser hijack programs. i did not download the standalone torrent but please be aware of the torntv installer
> 
> full file name:
> 
> McMaster-Carr_Catalog_#118_in_PDF_-_3779_Pages_Total.exe
Click to expand...



Sorry you had a problem, did you get that from Demonoid or from some other torrent site? I only see 2 choices there, one says "Download the torrent", and other says "Download as magnet link". The Magnet link just automates the process but neither one of them downloads any exe file to my computer? I use a Macintosh so I don't and actually can't use the exe type torrents. I do occasionally get them from other sites though, and then I just have to find a different source I can use.

So all I did was download the ".torrent" file itself here http://www.demonoid.ph/files/download/2999776/ and then dropped that into the Vuze program to download the PDF. I found nothing extraneous, just the pdf file and the usual text file identifying Demonoid as the source.

macfixer01
I am presently downloading it with utorrent. No problems. I'll use my AV to check the file before opening it.


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## goldsilverpro

I am presently downloading it with utorrent. No problems. I'll use my AV to check the file before opening it.


----------



## necromancer

https://www.demonoid.ph/files/details/2999776/0010308985392/



i used the Direct Download link http://www1.clickdownloader.com/dow...og+#118+in+PDF+-+3779+Pages+Total&subid=demon


----------



## g_axelsson

necromancer said:


> https://www.demonoid.ph/files/details/2999776/0010308985392/
> 
> 
> 
> i used the Direct Download link http://www1.clickdownloader.com/dow...og+#118+in+PDF+-+3779+Pages+Total&subid=demon


The direct download link is always fake, either you have to pay for the material, the service or get a virus served.

I have Adblock Plus installed in Firefox and it blocks six different objects on that page and I can't find the direct download link so it must be blocked. That means it isn't part of the original site.
On a torrent site, use the torrent links, there are two (one torrent file, one magnet link). That's the true download but you need a bittorrent program to handle them. I'm running Vuze for that but there are several programs out there.

Göran


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## necromancer

i picked up Vuze, thank you !!


----------



## butcher

g_axelsson said:


> necromancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.demonoid.ph/files/details/2999776/0010308985392/
> 
> 
> 
> i used the Direct Download link http://www1.clickdownloader.com/dow...og+#118+in+PDF+-+3779+Pages+Total&subid=demon
> 
> 
> 
> The direct download link is always fake, either you have to pay for the material, the service or get a virus served.
> 
> I have Adblock Plus installed in Firefox and it blocks six different objects on that page and I can't find the direct download link so it must be blocked. That means it isn't part of the original site.
> On a torrent site, use the torrent links, there are two (one torrent file, one magnet link). That's the true download but you need a bittorrent program to handle them. I'm running Vuze for that but there are several programs out there.
> 
> Göran
Click to expand...


I wish I had a clue as to what you are talking about.


----------



## g_axelsson

butcher said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> necromancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.demonoid.ph/files/details/2999776/0010308985392/
> 
> 
> 
> i used the Direct Download link http://www1.clickdownloader.com/dow...og+#118+in+PDF+-+3779+Pages+Total&subid=demon
> 
> 
> 
> The direct download link is always fake, either you have to pay for the material, the service or get a virus served.
> 
> I have Adblock Plus installed in Firefox and it blocks six different objects on that page and I can't find the direct download link so it must be blocked. That means it isn't part of the original site.
> On a torrent site, use the torrent links, there are two (one torrent file, one magnet link). That's the true download but you need a bittorrent program to handle them. I'm running Vuze for that but there are several programs out there.
> 
> Göran
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wish I had a clue as to what you are talking about.
Click to expand...

Firefox : substitute webbrowser instead of internet explorer, free from http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/
Adblock Plus : Small add-on program for Firefox, blocks ads so you can surf the net without being constantly attacked by ads, speeds up the surfing too as there are no ads to load.
Torrent : A file or collection of files shared via the bittorrent protocol. Instead of downloading from just one source, you download from everyone that have the file and is connected. Speeds up downloads as you takes small parts from different places of the net. Popular sites to share files via bittorrent is ThePiratebay.se and Demonoid.ph
Torrent file : a file with information about how the shared file(s) are split up, checksums and where to connect to the network to download the file(s). Describes the torrent.
Magnet link : a specially crafted link to tell your bittorrent client program where it can download the torrent file.
Bittorrent client : the program that manages the download. Vuze is one among many different programs that supports the bittorrent way of downloading.

The guys running these sites (demonoid, piratebay, ...) are a bit shady and sells advertise space to other more shady guys, all trying to earn a shady buck wherever they can. One way is to offer quick downloads for payment, the other way is to place a virus with a backdoor on your computer, then they can control your computer, stealing passwords, using it as a spam sender, attacking other websites or just running bitcoin miners on it. Whatever you do, unless you really know what you do, never download a file with ".exe" or ".com" at the end to your PC.

... I think that'll cover most of it. Anything else you don't understand?

Göran


----------



## macfixer01

g_axelsson said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> necromancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.demonoid.ph/files/details/2999776/0010308985392/
> 
> 
> 
> i used the Direct Download link http://www1.clickdownloader.com/dow...og+#118+in+PDF+-+3779+Pages+Total&subid=demon
> 
> 
> 
> The direct download link is always fake, either you have to pay for the material, the service or get a virus served.
> 
> I have Adblock Plus installed in Firefox and it blocks six different objects on that page and I can't find the direct download link so it must be blocked. That means it isn't part of the original site.
> On a torrent site, use the torrent links, there are two (one torrent file, one magnet link). That's the true download but you need a bittorrent program to handle them. I'm running Vuze for that but there are several programs out there.
> 
> Göran
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wish I had a clue as to what you are talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Firefox : substitute webbrowser instead of internet explorer, free from http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/
> Adblock Plus : Small add-on program for Firefox, blocks ads so you can surf the net without being constantly attacked by ads, speeds up the surfing too as there are no ads to load.
> Torrent : A file or collection of files shared via the bittorrent protocol. Instead of downloading from just one source, you download from everyone that have the file and is connected. Speeds up downloads as you takes small parts from different places of the net. Popular sites to share files via bittorrent is ThePiratebay.se and Demonoid.ph
> Torrent file : a file with information about how the shared file(s) are split up, checksums and where to connect to the network to download the file(s). Describes the torrent.
> Magnet link : a specially crafted link to tell your bittorrent client program where it can download the torrent file.
> Bittorrent client : the program that manages the download. Vuze is one among many different programs that supports the bittorrent way of downloading.
> 
> The guys running these sites (demonoid, piratebay, ...) are a bit shady and sells advertise space to other more shady guys, all trying to earn a shady buck wherever they can. One way is to offer quick downloads for payment, the other way is to place a virus with a backdoor on your computer, then they can control your computer, stealing passwords, using it as a spam sender, attacking other websites or just running bitcoin miners on it. Whatever you do, unless you really know what you do, never download a file with ".exe" or ".com" at the end to your PC.
> 
> ... I think that'll cover most of it. Anything else you don't understand?
> 
> Göran
Click to expand...



I hadn't thought about it before but yes I am running an AdBlock extension in Safari. So it's quite possible Necromancer saw a link that was part of an ad that I never even saw. As Göran said those Direct Download links are always fake and either try to sell you access to high speed download or some sort of membership. They usually show you fake search results indicating multiple sources for whatever it is that you were searching for, and they probably don't even have it if you did pay them money. As far as Demonoid or it's operators being shady, I've never found that to be the case. Paid advertisers are another story though.

macfixer01


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## necromancer

here is a screen shot of the link i see & that i clicked


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## macfixer01

I only get two links where you show four. If I temporarily disable Ad Block then I do see the other two links that say "Direct Download" and Download Torrent Anonymously", and also several banner ads for games. I never realized how much garbage Ad Block has been saving me from. I recently recommended Project Free TV to someone who wanted to watch Game Of Thrones episodes, and she wasn't able to watch anything due to popups requesting she sign up for membership or buy various software. In trying to figure out why it worked for me but not at all for her, I found it was Ad Block that made the difference.


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## necromancer

i will look for one that plugs into google chrome


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## meatheadmerlin

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/


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## meatheadmerlin

Basic information on many types of components
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/data/
including applications and identifying marks, tantalum capacitors, surface mount (SMD), ...


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## Palladium

Tin !


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## Palladium

Enlighten your mind !


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