# Gold and Pt bar assay and payout question.



## lazersteve (Aug 28, 2011)

Suppose I have a bar of gold and platinum mixed and you are a buyer and assayer of both. 

I have a few questions:

1) How much do you charge to assay the bar for gold and platinum?

2) How long will this take from the time the bar arrives?

3) How much do you pay for each metal (Au & Pt) in percentage of spot?

4) How long before I see my total amount due?

5) Do you have any minimum quantities required?

6) Do you charge any other fees on the transaction?

7) Will another Au/Pt buyer honor your assay?

8) Will you honor another buyers assay of this material?

9) What are your turn around times on mixed Au & Pt that has previously been assayed.

10) What kind of certification/guarantee do I get with your assay.

Steve


----------



## rusty (Aug 28, 2011)

Excellent post Steve, I have the same concerns with some metals I have ready to sell.

Best Regards
Rsuty


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 30, 2011)

Thirty one views and one reply....

Are Rusty and I the only forum members willing to publically comment on the subject of the assaying, buying, and selling of fine Gold and Platinum? :shock: 

Does anyone have any stories to share about your experinces with Platinum and Gold assayers and buyers: good, bad, or indifferent? 

Steve


----------



## NoIdea (Aug 30, 2011)

Hi Steve - from memory the refiner I have delt with in the past charged $150NZ for assay and $1NZ per gram of gold/platinum charge. Ten working day for results, with payment via electronic banking at the same time.

None of the other questions you mentioned were brought up. They will in future as I believe things were not quite above board.

Cheers

Deano


----------



## nickvc (Aug 30, 2011)

Steve I have no problems here in the UK and can get fast, accurate and cheap assays, two elements for around $50and a result in two days which is accepted by the local buyers.
Mixed gold platinum returns are around 95% Au and 90% Pt and I can trade palladium and rhodium at similar figures to the platinum.


----------



## HAuCl4 (Aug 30, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> 1) How much do you charge to assay the bar for gold and platinum? $100
> 
> 2) How long will this take from the time the bar arrives?. 1 day to 1 week, depending if I'm going to be making any money.
> 
> ...



Those are from a local small shop in Peru.


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 30, 2011)

nickvc said:


> Steve I have no problems here in the UK and can get fast, accurate and cheap assays, two elements for around $50and a result in two days which is accepted by the local buyers.
> Mixed gold platinum returns are around 95% Au and 90% Pt and I can trade palladium and rhodium at similar figures to the platinum.




I wonder if these assays are honored by buyers in the states? 

Ten percent seems a bit steep for 5+ oT lots of Pt. 

Maybe I should make a trip to the UK and sell some Pt while I'm there :idea: 

Steve


----------



## rusty (Aug 30, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> nickvc said:
> 
> 
> > Steve I have no problems here in the UK and can get fast, accurate and cheap assays, two elements for around $50and a result in two days which is accepted by the local buyers.
> ...



I already asked him to share who he is selling to, perhaps he would sate this publicly. As I would most certainly consider this as a viable option to selling locally.

Regards
Rusty


----------



## HAuCl4 (Aug 31, 2011)

IMO you will always do better if you sell the gold and platinum separately and not in a mixed bar. I thought fournines had pretty good rates for both. What's the purpose of your question Steve?. You know all of this already. :?: :?: :shock:
It is generally hard to find final buyers for platinum, so everybody keeps their cards close to their chest, or accumulates for sales when a premium buyer appears. IMHO. So it is not uncommon to have buyers at 90% sellers at 105% of spot. Rhodium and Palladium are worse. It's just the way it is for small players like all of us.


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 31, 2011)

HAuCl4 said:


> IMO you will always do better if you sell the gold and platinum separately and not in a mixed bar. I thought fournines had pretty good rates for both. What's the purpose of your question Steve?. You know all of this already. :?: :?: :shock:
> It is generally hard to find final buyers for platinum, so everybody keeps their cards close to their chest, or accumulates for sales when a premium buyer appears. IMHO. So it is not uncommon to have buyers at 90% sellers at 105% of spot. Rhodium and Palladium are worse. It's just the way it is for small players like all of us.



If Fournines (or others) would answer these questions here, then others and myself who don't already know the answers would know. I don't understand why buyers terms for buying gold are to the point and conversely why the same buyers terms for Pt are so convaluted. 

Please explain to me the purpose of a two week delay in spot price locking when buying Pt?

Who's assay will Fournines honor on the Pt he buys?

Please note I'm only using Fournines in the questions above as you mentioned him as a buyer. If you are a Pt buyer feel free to substitute your name for his name for in the above.

Why do they buy small lots of Au at the drop of a hat, but require an act of congress to buy Pt.

Steve


----------



## HAuCl4 (Aug 31, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> Please note I'm only using Fournines in the questions above as you mentioned him as a buyer. If you are a Pt buyer feel free to substitute your name for his name for in the above.
> Why do they buy small lots of Au at the drop of a hat, but require an act of congress to buy Pt.
> Steve


I'm not actively a buyer or processor currently. What I do, I do for fun. If I can get Pt very cheap in small quantities, I buy it. I have always been irked by the same issues that you are. The market has always been like that for platinum products. My guess is due to the relatively low volume compared to gold and silver. It is always harder to sell Ferraris than Toyotas, and dealers have to be more careful. 

I'll let fournines answer for himself if he wishes to do so. He probably has recently moved more platinum than all the the rest of the forum put together, except perhaps Lou.

If you need cash, platinum and rhodium are horrible inventories to have. But if you don't need cash, they can be the most profitable ones, once a buyer shows up. Just my 2c.


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 31, 2011)

When the price of platinum was far greater than gold I could understand the Ferrari Toyota comparison, but with the two nearly equal in value, it seems outdated.

The other major point is what make one buyers assay any better than anothers. If I take my Pt bars to the local University and the professor and I run an ICP why is that not good enough? Furthermore if I alloy my refined gold with my refined Pt and the bar on XRF shoots 49.5% Au, 49.5% Pt, and 1% other, why pay on the gold immeadiately but not the Pt? If a bar shot 99.5% Au and 0.5% Pt would the buyer trust it? 

Steve


----------



## HAuCl4 (Aug 31, 2011)

I believe it is a matter of the volume in gold being easier to move than the small volumes in platinum, not an issue about prices. Just my opinion. On XRF's I prefer to pass and not have an opinion. It is very simple to separate the 2 metals, at least for you, and buyers like it simple or they charge more.


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 31, 2011)

HAuCl4 said:


> ... It is very simple to separate the 2 metals, at least for you, and buyers like it simple or they charge more.



This statement only serves to make all the 'hoopla' surrounding selling refined Pt more unnecessary. 

I'm looking for a buyer who, like when buying gold, has a set price they pay on the spot for Pt that can be confirmed of a reasonable purity. After a initial relationship is established, things should be much more comfortable for both parties. If an XRF reading of refined Pt can be off by 3%, then factor that into the price they will pay. All of the other extrenuating factors of the resale lot size, melt loss, etc. should also already be factored into the pricing schedule. 

The major beef I have with sending 10+ ounces of Pt to any buyer is the large 'gray' area their Pt buying criteria creates. I would be very happy selling my Pt for 93% to a buyer who pays on the spot as opposed to getting 96-98% after several weeks of wondering what the buyer finally determines my Pt to be worth.

Furthermore, I have no problem getting my Pt assayed as long as the assay will be honored by other buyers.

Steve


----------



## HAuCl4 (Aug 31, 2011)

I feel your pain brother, but I have no solution for it. Maybe Lou can help you out. PGMs are almost a racket.


----------



## metatp (Aug 31, 2011)

HAuCl4 said:


> I feel your pain brother, but I have no solution for it. Maybe Lou can help you out. PGMs are almost a racket.


Don't we have similar issues with silver? Gold just seems much easier to sell.

Tom


----------



## Lou (Sep 4, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> Suppose I have a bar of gold and platinum mixed and you are a buyer and assayer of both.
> 
> I have a few questions:
> 
> ...




If I have a client come to me with an assay from a reputable assayer and his material is commercially pure and in a marketable form, then it's a different story than buying scrap material. I even got into trouble recently with a large Pt trading firm over old yet SEALED platinum sponge from Engelhard. I know it doesn't have a shelf-life, but they weren't buying it. If I don't have to refine it, and all I have to do is assay it and pass it on with the next bunch, then I'm willing to pay higher, but my assay must be ICP-AES and it's not going to be same day, and possibly not even the same week. All Pt that goes on to end market users or to the exchanges is assayed in that fashion.

Small quantities of relatively pure Pt, I think 90-94% is plenty fair. Large quantities, I think 95-97,5% is more than fair. That's with no fees, no sampling charge, no lot treatment, no 1/4 ozt deductions. But that's just what I'm willing to pay, based on what I know I have to do. Break down the refining terms from Heraeus or JM and see what it comes to; I have the current schedules at hand. You may see 99%+ on Pt but there's a variable price per ounce processed, lot treatment minimums, then there's the fact that they don't pay you in full for six to twelve weeks (usually a 90% advance with 5-6% interest) and God help you if some cadmium or TSCA-controlled substance sneaks in the refining lot! Long story made short enough, by the time you wade through all the different fees and charges, you're not winning unless you send in hundreds of ounces at a time and witness it yourself.

Let's take Steve's 2 ozt troy bar as a working example.
If he sends it in, I must weigh it, melt it, sample it, XRF it (which I do not really trust at parts per ten thousand precision, especially at the confidence interval requisite to insure that I can not refine it and just batch it with the rest), and if it isn't commercially pure, then I have to roll it, anneal it, roll it, then digest it for several days, filter, rinse, hydrolytically separate it, then reduce, then go after the residual Pt in the waste effluent, which I won't recover for some time. Sounds pretty easy? It's not. It's not as simple as just dropping three times with ammonium chloride (that would take too long for one, although it might get the job done). Now I know Steve to be a meticulous, competent, chemist who wouldn't send something out unless it were a slam dunk, but how am I supposed to trust just any person's "pure platinum powder"? On large lots, it's getting refined. I'm willing to hedge it on preliminary assays at the bottom of the RSD. 

Also, people forget that gold is much more cut and dried than Pt, Pd, and Rh. There's much more of a market for gold. It's much easier to sell for a profitable price. It's also just easier to refine.

And, if people with small quantities of Pt haven't figured out yet, the PGM market is basically a cartel run by traders at a select few large firms. All others tow the line.

Another thing to consider is that an XRF reading can be off by 3% for numerous reasons:

1. It's off calibration or just running on an algorithm. The more you use it, the sooner you lose it.
2. It's a handheld, low-power unit that has minimal penetrative capability, especially given how dense platinum is. A 30 second acquisition time is usually not sufficient except on kW power units.
3. You're reading a powder.
4. You're reading a liquid.
5. You're measuring a button that was melted in a contaminated dish and it's contaminated on the bottom, and/or the top.
6. You're measuring a button that has Pt congeners like Ni and Co and Fe, all of which may phase separate in the Pt and not form a homogeneous alloy.
7. You're measuring a button that was torch melted and thus exacerbating problem reason 6--it's not homogenous as it was not stirred and possibly not even melted all the way through.

The fairest shake I can give anyone is to digest the stuff and run it as a refining lot. Unfortunately, that is not always practical for long refining schedule metals like Rh and Ir, but it is for Pd and Pt.


Steve,

I'll gladly buy your triple refined Pt for 93% of spot, the day I receive it. You'll have the wire that very day. I will buy it as if it were 99.9% Pt if you yourself warrant that you refined all of it three times. If you want to send out for 3rd party assay, be my guest. If it turns out that it's commercially pure, I'll make a substantially higher offer. Just remember that a good multielement assay starts at $400.


----------



## samuel-a (Sep 4, 2011)

Great post Lou. Thank you for that.

It's a real eye opener to the PGM trading world.


----------



## Lou (Sep 4, 2011)

I forgot to add:

the melt loss is negligible on solid material.

Truth be told, melt loss is only common with sponge and most particularly blacks because they have a high surface area and have much adsorbed water and often hydrogen on their surface. It is a particular problem with palladium. Melt loss on Pd black is at most 3%, on Pt black less, and on the sponges, almost always between 0.1-0.4%. It will go toward the low end by firing it in a quartz dish at about 1000 C for an hour. This is not to be done with Pd, as it will oxidize if exposed to the atmosphere. 

The weeks involved in selling it is typically due to one of two things:

1. You sold to a consolidator, which almost every single refiner in the U.S. is for PGMs with the exception of about a half dozen; of those half dozen, there are only two full service (all PGM refined in house) in North America. One of them is Inco. 

2. You managed to get enough together to sell to an actual refiner, not a broker which sells to them and they will take their time to refine it. They will also sell your metal and use the profits for a few weeks to make even more money.


----------



## HAuCl4 (Sep 5, 2011)

Lou: Your knowledge of PGM commercial dealing and chemistry is pretty much complete!. (better than mine anyways). It's a racket at the top. :lol:


----------



## HAuCl4 (Sep 19, 2011)

Was there a happy ending to this story Steve?. 8)


----------



## lazersteve (Sep 22, 2011)

I managed to sell off a few ounces of my Pt at a fair price, so I guess it all worked out.

Steve


----------



## HAuCl4 (Sep 24, 2011)

Glad to hear that Steve. 8)


----------



## wondercorn (Feb 15, 2012)

Different country have different rules i suppose.

In indonesia we have PT Antam as the main refiner and assayer that belonged to government.

Each bar that we brought to them for assay are priced for Rp150.000,- or around $16,66.

I ever bring them 100gr PAMP Credit Suisse and 1 Kg of Metalor. Both of them are charged same for assay.

Sorry for limitation of grammar.


----------



## Laney360 (Dec 16, 2013)

lazersteve said:


> Suppose I have a bar of gold and platinum mixed and you are a buyer and assayer of both.
> 
> I have a few questions:
> 
> ...




Hey Steve this is Shelby Laney...I am a Customer Develop Manager for Hi Tech PMR.
Hi Tech PMR has a strong interest in earning your business. We would have a AU/PT bar refined within 4 hours of receiving and have your ASSAY and results ready for settlement by 4pm CST same day. 
We would pay 98.5 of anything less than 5 oz. of Gold pure refined and 92% PT anything under 10 oz. PT pure refined. 
That is starting....jumps to 99% over 5 oz. AU and up to 95% over 10 oz. with PT. I know that Hi Tech PMR would never honor the ASSAY results of other companies as I would not expect any refinery would honor our ASSAY. 

No FEE's attached to any Gold/PT/PD or Silver scrap ASSAY. 

Call and lets discuss sometime would love an opportunity to earn your business...I have a $100 Risk Free to apply to S&I and toward the 1.5 to 1% of the settlement to refine with us. 

Shelby H. Laney
Hi Tech PMR
OFFICE: 972-239-0597 EXT. 254 (just ask fro Shelby) 
Cell: 214-779-5695

Look forward to hearing from you at you earliest convenience.


----------



## Palladium (Dec 16, 2013)

Three posts total on the forum. In the first post you made you put a link to Hi tech ( Which we all know Miguel ).
Your second post was misleading in the fact you were acting like you had no knowledge of the company and was just leaving good customer feedback. Now in the third post you come out and announce who you are. Do you think this is good business practice or that i would trust someone who has obviously already mislead me?


----------



## butcher (Dec 16, 2013)

On his first post my interest was piqued, a quick look at his profile showed who he was, (did seem kind of like sneaky advertising), I did not see him really hiding anything, I did think it looked like he was doing some advertising in the first post, but then again it was in the appropriate section.

Shelby,
My hope is that you are also here to share what you have learned.
As well as helping forum members with information.
This group also likes straight forward honesty.
Sneaking around can just look suspicious.


----------



## Palladium (Dec 16, 2013)

Yeah i noticed it was in the right section also. My point was with the first advertising link in the first post he should have said who he was. The second post was deceptive because he knew who and what he was doing and still decided to be deceptive about his true intentions. Then the third post told what his true intentions where. I don't care if he solicits business, but to do so in a not so truthful manner whether it was straight out deception on his part is irrelevant. If people chose to do business with him it is between him and any prospective client. What is relevant is the practices that are obviously part of his business or else their would be no misunderstanding as to who or what his intentions are. Your first impression is not something you get a second chance at in this business.


----------



## kmann1969 (Jan 15, 2014)

I would pay 92% for any refined PT that's not mixed. as long as its in a presentable retail able form(not a ugly dull glob) but a nice shiny bar. PM me if interested. I will also pay 92% for refined silver and 96% for refined gold. 92% for karat gold.


----------



## Lou (Jan 16, 2014)

kmann, I would be interested in buying any refined Pt you buy.

Thanks,


----------



## sander (Apr 29, 2014)

If you ever need dead on accurate within <1 ppm analysis of any solid metal bar, ingot, button etc. I have the capabilities of getting this type of work performed for a decent rate. This type of work is destructive so there will be no sample returned but the sampling size is very small. I also can provide non destructive testing that is not as accurate but can give you a percentage to work with. From my experience I would never use the XRF as a method to base what the metal composition of a sample is. This testing X-Ray Fluorescence (XRF) should only be used to give you general idea of what the composition of a sample. I have seen samples differ as far as 7% from what the XRF Niton gun results compared to the results given by EDS (Energy Dispersive Spectrometry) this was not a precious metal barring alloy however. Either way our business does various forms of destructive and non-destructive chemical analysis of various forms of metal. We cannot perform any assaying of circuit boards. I wish we could. 

Just thought I'd pass this along.


----------



## goldguru (Sep 12, 2017)

Isn't it simplified for everyone enough weight item find grain amount for karat in question example 24k one gram is 15.43 grains so weight in grams multiplyed by 15.43 should equal out when weighting the item in grains thank you I've struggled my way to find out I've learned so much


----------



## upcyclist (Sep 12, 2017)

goldguru said:


> Isn't it simplified for everyone enough weight item find grain amount for karat in question example 24k one gram is 15.43 grains so weight in grams multiplyed by 15.43 should equal out when weighting the item in grains thank you I've struggled my way to find out I've learned so much


I'm confused, though it would help if you used actual sentences. One gram of anything is _always _15.43 grains. Now, if you're talking about density, and you know that your alloy contains two metals, you can figure out the ratio of the two by a density method. Experienced folks (not I) can do the same thing and get pretty darn close with gold alloys, regardless of how many metals are in the mix (assuming the metals are the usual suspects). 

But grains and grams both measure weight (or mass, if you're picky). "Which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of gold?"


----------



## Topher_osAUrus (Sep 12, 2017)

upcyclist said:


> "Which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of gold?"



Feathers! Duh!
But, that ounce of that same gold is more than the ounce of feathers.  

(I argued with my father in law about that for...oh, an hour, before he finally googled troy weight system :lol: )


----------

