# Shor redesign



## Palladium (Feb 13, 2011)

As everyone knows i can't stand that shor thingy ( fizzer cell ). I have been wanting to redesign it every since i saw the cheapness of the product. The technology is there, so is the market for it, it's just cheaply designed and built is my complaint. I like the disclaimer they have on their site " For industrial use only". :roll: I'm going to build a real Industrial model for my experimenting with. Here is my question to the forum.

What would you change about it and why? What do you see could make the product more functional or more user friendly? If you have used or bought one what is your opinion? I don't want to give away my design yet because i kind of want to get some unbiased input from what everybody else would do and how they would do it. Market research. :mrgreen: I will tell you that i have compiled a list of materials and the cost is looking to be in the $250-300 range. Note: That's with built in power supply, not a battery charger. Any ideas?


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## Palladium (Feb 17, 2011)

Ok I’m back again. I've ordered most of the materials i need for my little project. I've got a question for the ones who have dealt with cells before. This is my first venture into cell refining. What would be the best way to suspend the ingot into the solution? Shor recommends soldiering a silver wire to the ingot and suspending the ingot from the wire. Is that the shor way? Is that the best i can do? Could you also drill a hole in the center or somewhere else and suspend it? How do you guys do in on a large scale? I want this to be right. 8)


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## rusty (Feb 17, 2011)

Cast the anode with tabs that sit on the buss.


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## Irons (Feb 17, 2011)

Hang the anode from a piece of Titanium strip. That should last a very long time.

Grade 1, 2,3,4,7,11 

Grade 1 is the best CP Titanium, 7 and 11 Have a small percentage of Pd for added corrosion resistance.


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## Palladium (Feb 17, 2011)

That’s my problem is the contact point. I'm building this as a mirror to shor as far as marketing goes. The product will be commercial in nature but still needs to be applicable from a novice point of view. You know, KISS. How would you attach it by ti strip at the point of contact to the ingot, or does it need only surface contact. I don't want to have a flaw or something you always have to fiddle with like scrapping or removing the material to fool with it.


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## Irons (Feb 17, 2011)

Palladium said:


> That’s my problem is the contact point. I'm building this as a mirror to shor as far as marketing goes. The product will be commercial in nature but still needs to be applicable from a novice point of view. You know, KISS. How would you attach it by ti strip at the point of contact to the ingot, or does it need only surface contact. I don't want to have a flaw or something you always have to fiddle with like scrapping or removing the material to fool with it.



Why don't you use a compression contact. You could use a lock nut to hold he contact tension. This way, odd shaped anodes won't be a problem. That makes it a lot easier for the operator not having to cast a specific shape Anode. Titanium has a bit of spring to it. Pat. Pending.. :mrgreen:


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## Palladium (Feb 17, 2011)

I've thought of that. I've been looking for something like a ti alligator clip.


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## Palladium (Feb 18, 2011)

What do you think of No. WF1 ? It's a clip 3 in long. The cell is 4 in deep.


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## Lou (Feb 18, 2011)

Irons said:


> Hang the anode from a piece of Titanium strip. That should last a very long time.
> 
> Grade 1, 2,3,4,7,11
> 
> Grade 1 is the best CP Titanium, 7 and 11 Have a small percentage of Pd for added corrosion resistance.




Sure it's not Ru?


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## dtectr (Feb 18, 2011)

Palladium said:


> Ok I’m back again. I've ordered most of the materials i need for my little project. I've got a question for the ones who have dealt with cells before. This is my first venture into cell refining. What would be the best way to suspend the ingot into the solution? Shor recommends soldiering a silver wire to the ingot and suspending the ingot from the wire. Is that the shor way? Is that the best i can do? Could you also drill a hole in the center or somewhere else and suspend it? How do you guys do in on a large scale? I want this to be right. 8)


 NOTE: :!: 
DISCLAIMER: :!: 
I've done NO silver recovery !!! :!: 
I'm still very new - is this for a Silver cell? If so, someone here recommended (I don't remember either the Recommnd-_er_ or Recommend-_ee,_ sorry) melting the tip of a piece of fine silver wire, then casting the ingot AROUND it. The refiner/member was very pleased with that recommendation - it seemed to simplify things.
FWIW


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## Irons (Feb 18, 2011)

Lou said:


> Irons said:
> 
> 
> > Hang the anode from a piece of Titanium strip. That should last a very long time.
> ...



No, the spec says Pd .2%



http://books.google.com/books?id=HgzukknbNGAC&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=type+7+Titanium&source=bl&ots=KZ70ci4E2N&sig=rLMimbIJrSWrhB46f9hG1e5jByk&hl=en&ei=rtheTbe0OMPpgQesoZHkDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=grade%207%20Titanium&f=false


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## Palladium (Mar 10, 2011)

Back again. I still haven't figured the power supply issue out yet. I don't want a battery charger. I want a built in power supply capable of delivering a constant 10-15 amps. Anyone have any recommendations as to what would work best?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 10, 2011)

What are you currently using for a power supply? Or maybe I should ask what is the power supply you are using rated for on continuous duty?


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## Palladium (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm not using anything for a power supply yet. I'm still building it.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 11, 2011)

Check over at grainger.com.


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## Harold_V (Mar 11, 2011)

Palladium said:


> I want a built in power supply capable of delivering a constant 10-15 amps. Anyone have any recommendations as to what would work best?


Ralph,
You might consider looking in to rectifiers used in small anodizing lines. They are quite sophisticated in that you can dial in constant voltage or constant amperage. They have them in the 25 amp range, and maybe even somewhat smaller. 

Harold


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## Oz (Mar 11, 2011)

Palladium said:


> I'm not using anything for a power supply yet. I'm still building it.


Knowing you I would suggest you just buy a lab grade power supply (get it on the cheap of course). Since you have now decided to pursue electro refining you will try other things along the same lines other than your current project. Having fine control over voltage and amps will allow you to perfect a process on a given cell design, as well as allow you to try other designs as a comparison. 

Once you have found your winning combination, then design or build the power supply required for a “production” unit.


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## Palladium (Mar 11, 2011)

I have a couple of used power supplies I use for my experiments. What i'm looking for is some type of off the shelf package deal I can just order and install for my power supply needs. I need it to fit in a 12 X 6 X 6 space. Once I build this one and test it to verify the quality and functionality of the unit I will be building more and need a source for future builds. I've thought of building one with adjustable voltage and amperage, but keeping the consumer base in mind and knowing that most people would not even understand what to do with the added features I have decided to keep it KISS. The unit will have digital readouts for both amperage and temperature ranges. The unit will have built in temperature controls. Not adjustable, but controlled with a temperature cut out switch to limit the temperature on the high side range (180 F). It has built in cooling fans to keep the temperature in range. The system is built completely from ½ HDPE and ti screws. The top is a clear ½ acrylic sheet that allows for viewing without removing the top of the cell and is lighted for easy viewing. It will come with a 10 stage scrubbing system made of 1 ½ in acrylic tubes 16 in long packed with glass beads. I want to build a quality product that when people hear the name it just screams quality and not just some cheap shor design. The only thing anyone should ever have to do is replace consumables. This cell will be a Fizzer cell only!


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## Palladium (Mar 11, 2011)

Anybody got a comment on the top one. http://www.nitrorcthunder.com/Power%20supply.htm


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## qst42know (Mar 11, 2011)

At what voltage does a fizzer cell operate?


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## Palladium (Mar 11, 2011)

Actually all you need is just over 1.36 volts.


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## qst42know (Mar 12, 2011)

Then the power supply you were looking at is way over range at 10 to 15volts.


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## golddie (Mar 13, 2011)

> t shor thingy ( fizzer cell )


What is this and where is it on the shor web site
Thanks


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## Palladium (Mar 13, 2011)

the first one http://shorinternational.com/refining.htm# The Simplicity Gold & Platinum Refining System


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## rusty (Mar 13, 2011)

Palladium I'm curious if you have any plans to patent your cell design. .

Regards
Rusty


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## Palladium (Mar 13, 2011)

rusty said:


> Palladium I'm curious if you have any plans to patent your cell design. .
> 
> Regards
> Rusty



Nope ! Just looking to shake things up a bit. lol


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## alesswo (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi Palladium. Do you have any commercial prototype by now?


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## Anonymous (Mar 21, 2011)

Ralph are you near me(florida east coast)?
I have a monster variable supply that came out of a naval destroyer a few years back.I don't know if it works,but you can have it.


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## Mack777 (Apr 1, 2011)

Palladium said:


> Anybody got a comment on the top one. http://www.nitrorcthunder.com/Power%20supply.htm



Hi Guys- I don't speak much, just listen. However, we were asked for a reply re: power supplies and I feel obligated.

1. You can use a computer power supply to get several voltages. By inserting a wire jumper between the green wire on the 20 pin or 24 pin power feed block you will turn on the power supply. Removing the jumper turns it off. 

2. One of the best cheapest power supplies for Cell work is a 6 or ten amp battery charger. It has a 6 volt output and a 12 volt output (High and Med)
To get the exact voltage and therefore current you want all you have to do is use a piece of nichrome (a toaster heating element wound on an electrical insulator will work with some fiddling with a clip for one of the leads with the end being connected to your load. If you want larger currents you can wind a SS coil with space between the coils to place your clip to get the current you want.

3. If you need a lot of current you can use a "Buzz Box" type electric welder going through a high amp Diode bridge. A trip to the Junk yard will usually provide a large diode bridge from a DC welder that will be more power than you will need for most jobs... unless you want to electroplate.

Enjoy.
Mack777


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## Palladium (Jun 11, 2011)

Well here i set with all kinds of parts to start this but i still am not satisfied with my design concept. I don't like the contact problem. My main market for this will be for jewelry of course, but that is the field i am least knowledgeable in.

The shor concept uses electromotive forces to generate cl at the anode which happens to be the gold surface. This puts it into solution. If you have a short or bad contact it all comes to a halt. What if i had like a column and it was packed with gold shot or cornflakes. Through that column cl gas is passed over the surface of the gold in essence making the gold shot the packing material. Am i to assume that i could get just as good a dissolution or even better with cl gas as i would using electricity? But without the connection problems associated with direct electrical contact.


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## Palladium (Jun 11, 2011)

You never know what you might run across in your research. 
http://books.google.com/books?id=sGFIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA56&dq=gold+cell++Porcelain&hl=en&ei=QbDzTbGZEYmEtgfBx8H1Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=gold%20cell%20%20Porcelain&f=false


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## Palladium (Jun 11, 2011)

Interesting :idea: 

Measurement of Pore Diameters In Membranes

When the membrane is saturated the diameters of the largest pores can be measured according to the method used by Bigelow and Bartell. This consisted in connecting the cell supported with the bottom up, to the pressure tank and gauge, covering the surface of the membrane with water and gradually increasing the pressure, noting that at which bubbles appeared through the openings in the plate. This pressure represents that required to displace the water in the pores by air. From it, by means of Jurin's law, the pore diameters can be calculated. 

This law may be formulated as follows: a2 = hr where o2 is a constant (14.823 for water at 20°), h the height to which water would rise on account of capillarity and r the radius of the pore. The appropriateness of the method has been discussed by Bigelow and Bartell.


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## Palladium (Jun 26, 2011)

Hummmm...

PVDF 
.4 microns


http://www.whatman.com/References/gdx.mpeg


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