# Looking for the Source of this Material



## achab86 (Sep 11, 2015)

Hi all. I've been getting silver by the bucket load from a local person. Usually 300-500ozt at a time - once a month, if not twice. There are 2 forms and I cannot figure out where it might have come from. 

One form is a fine powder and is almost 99% pure. It melts soooo nicely 
The other form is very hard and in chunks. It almost looks as though it was processed on a griddle. It is usually about 88-92% pure and contains high nickel (usually 7-10%) and some chrome.

Any ideas what this might be? I have processed film silver before and this is definitely different material.


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## achab86 (Sep 13, 2015)

Here are the bars for the second material with the pile of nickel on the side. It's a real P.I.T.A. to melt.


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## necromancer (Sep 13, 2015)

so your looking to cut out the middle man ?

i hope they are a member here, see your post & sell their silver to someone else !!

with a total members count of 33,569 you just never know.


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## achab86 (Sep 13, 2015)

Oh geez. I hadn't even considered that it sounded like that. Just trying to figure out what it might have come from. 


A little background: the guy I'm getting it from is cleaning out a family member's estate. They found buckets of it in the basement and weren't even sure it was silver until we tested it. IIRC, the family was in some way involved in the chemical business. 

On 2 occasions he brought a bottle of an orange liquid that they found, which was almost completely saturated with gold. 

If it seems like I'm trying to be shady/pull a fast one, I apologize and can delete the post. I don't want to tarnish the awesome reputation of this forum and those that make it so awesome.


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## necromancer (Sep 13, 2015)

that's good you cleared that up, did (at first) sound shady.

it could have came from anywhere !!


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## achab86 (Sep 13, 2015)

Phew! Last thing I want is to be "that" guy. 

I just don't think I've come across silver with so much nickel and 0 copper. Took a while to figure out how to melt it so that the nickel stayed separate. And even after getting the nickel separate, there is still a lot that ends up in the bar.


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## Palladium (Sep 13, 2015)

Looks like it was dried in some cast iron griddle, but that tells us nothing about what it's source may be and the truth is the only man who knows is probably dead. What kind of payout are you getting for it?


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## necromancer (Sep 13, 2015)

could you not use hydrochloric acid to remove the nickel ?


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## Anonymous (Sep 14, 2015)

Would it not complicate things John?


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## justinhcase (Sep 14, 2015)

Very good thing you cleared up any misunderstanding about your motivation.
there is nothing lower than a fellow refiner trying to undermine people and take work out form under them.
some do it out of pure spite not just profit which is bad enough.
Once you have a reputation for doing that it soon get's around and your opportunity's tend to dry up.
Most defiantly cemented silver a very nice find.there being so meany uses for it in chemistry it would be impossible to tell what it came from with out a little help form the chemist involved.
I would run it through a silver cell.I would not try to wash it in hydrochloric as that would form silver chloride.
If you find it needs cleaning up before a cell a standard digestion and cementing with copper would be good but it looks quite clean already.


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## kurtak (Sep 14, 2015)

necromancer said:


> so your looking to cut out the middle man ?
> i hope they are a member here, see your post & sell their silver to someone else !!
> 
> with a total members count of 33,569 you just never know.



:roll: --- now that took some real "reading between the lines" to come to as a conclusion :roll: 



> Oh geez. I hadn't even considered that it sounded like that. Just trying to figure out what it might have come from.
> 
> If it seems like I'm trying to be shady/pull a fast one, I apologize and can delete the post.



acha86 --- No need to delete your OP - It was VERY clear to me that your one & only intent was to try to figure out what the original source "might be" to result in all the nickel - I didn't reply because I have no clue that would answer the nickel question

How anyone would read that you are trying to be shady in your OP is beyond me - human nature for some people I guess

Anyway - VERY nice score 8) 

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Sep 14, 2015)

"How anyone would read that you are trying to be shady in your OP is beyond me - human nature for some people I guess"
not a very nice subject but once you have had it happen to you once or twice you become a little more suspicious of every one until you have a chance to get to know them and how they operate.
There are even a number of test's that have been developed to gauge a persons proclivity's.
It is a shame not every one on the net is actual a nice person even though they all call you "Mate",some are quite ruthless in the quest for metal.
Best to give people a head's up so honest people can be as transparent as possible.


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## kurtak (Sep 14, 2015)

achab86 said:


> The other form is very hard and in chunks. It almost looks as though it was processed on a griddle. It is usually about 88-92% pure and contains high nickel (usually 7-10%) and some chrome.
> 
> Any ideas what this might be? I have processed film silver before and this is definitely different material.



Justin

I understand that there are shady people in this world - But I don't see ANYTHING shady in the above

He makes a statement about the physical nature of the product "It almost looks as though it was processed on a griddle" --- then comments on the high nickel content

He then asks (as underlined) what it might be (due to the nickel/chrome content)

He then states that it is not like silver from photo processing (which he has processed before) which would have been my first guess (except that he already said its not like photo silver)

So I am having a real hard time seeing anything shady here --- he is clearly looking for what the silver was/is used for to have the nickel/chrome content --- NOT where it came from 

Other then that - IF - I had suspected acha86 was trying to pull a fast & shady deal - I would have asked something like --- So are you asking about who/where the silver came from - or are you asking what the silver may have been used for?

I certainly would not just accuse him of being shady (because I am a paranoid that thinks everyone is a crook) & then express a hope that he loose the deal (because I read between the lines & made a judgement that he is shady)

Personally - I think he is owed a formal apology - but I am not a moderator to make that call ( I would have been very offended by such a snap judgement - had it been me as the original poster)

Kurt


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## g_axelsson (Sep 14, 2015)

I have been wondering a bit about the silver. It surely looks like cemented silver and where the source of pure cemented silver is from is virtually impossible to say. But I don't know of a lot of processes that would only include nickel and silver. The only one I can think of and a possible source for such a material is immersion plating baths for silver surface treatment of circuit boards.

One surface treatment of circuit boards to keep them from corrode and lose solderability is electroless nickel immersion silver. First all exposed metal surfaces is plated with nickel from a chemical bath that deposits a thick film of nickel, a diffusion barrier for the silver. The second step is basically cementing silver onto the nickel while the nickel goes into solution. Thanks to additives the silver layer forms a smooth layer and the process cuts off when the silver is protecting the nickel from any more dissolving. (For gold the process is called ENIG, just search the forum.)
The bath will get higher levels of nickel contamination while the silver amount drops.

I don't know of any details of the process, as at which nickel level it is too contaminated to use or how much silver it would contain after discarding. But I think the additives would make cementing or electrowinning a bit challenging by forming solid chunks instead of a fine powder that would just fall of. A bit like what we see on the pictures above.

This is just a theory of mine, I know the process is out in the circuit board industry but I haven't seen it up and close or any waste it forms so I could be quite wrong here.

A big problem with my theory is that ENIS doesn't seem to be that common yet, I get the feeling that most boards is treated with just silver straight onto copper ( IAg ).
One report http://circuitsassembly.com/ca/magazine/24220-surface-finishes-1409.html is talking about ENIS as a possible replacement of ENIG and was published early in 2014.

If I got some mysterious materials like this via someone, I would also try to find out more about the source, not to cut him out, but to be able to hunt down more sources beyond his reach and also to learn more about the material and maybe give advice on how to collect it more easily.

And finally, to comment the above post, as a moderator I'm still just watching how this thread plays out, hoping there will be nothing for me to do but enjoying the intellectual discussion. 8) 
Part of the joy of being on this forum is to see material that I would never get my hands on myself, thanks for posting the question. Please do not delete any content, it disrupts the discussion and it's also against forum rules.

Göran


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## justinhcase (Sep 14, 2015)

kurtak said:


> achab86 said:
> 
> 
> > The other form is very hard and in chunks. It almost looks as though it was processed on a griddle. It is usually about 88-92% pure and contains high nickel (usually 7-10%) and some chrome.
> ...


I can not and will not try to speak for every one,but if a concern is raised by one person the point will very lightly have occurred to others.
An honest man has very little to hide so transparency is the best policy .
I agree the initial comment was a bit heavy handed,but as I say it was good to clear things up so the matter could be put to bed.
We all have different cognitive functions that insure we see every thing from unique perspective's.
Being open about your concerns is as important as addressing issues as they arise.
How else can one address problems before they fester to toxic levels.


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## Anonymous (Sep 14, 2015)

I agree with Kurt 100% on this. I can't see any reason why the OP could have been taken as underhand or dodgy. The guy was clearly asking what kind of raw material this could have come from. edit: I also agree that people should "man up" and apologise for the inference.


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## justinhcase (Sep 14, 2015)

Well I commend achab86 for having fielded a question that was a bit abrasive in a very productive manner. 
Not quite sure there is any point in throwing oil on a fire that has been dampened down.
But we are all entitled to our opinion what ever the motivation,and as The question is on the page let us ask the man concerned instead of breaking out the pitch fork's and torches just yet..
achab86 do you feel insulted and upset by the discussion or find necromancer approach out of order?
I do hope my response came across courteous and supportive of fair play and transparency.
But if achab86 has been offended we will sort it out like gentlemen.
It has been my experience that only thous guilty of such transgression over react to the subject when it is raised.
people questioning your honesty is part of the business,some do it for tactical advantage and some out of real concern.
It is up to you to decide which motivation a person is acting under so you can put good client's mind's at ease and to isolate any one you find offensive.
I have no wish to take part in a Jeremy kyle type discussion but unfortunately some can not help but do so.


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 14, 2015)

> The Moderators come here to talk about refining. Members who do not follow the rules as stated, take away from the goal of this forum, which is “Refiners helping one another”. Whether they realize it or not, they are forcing the Moderators to be policemen when we are really here to discuss refining. We will enforce all of these rules, we will issue warnings and ban members who abuse the privilege, and we will continue to live up to the standard that has been created here.


Come on guys, let's talk about refining. One moderator has already posted on this thread and indicated he is watching it. I can assure you he is not the only one. If the moderators feel a need to intervene, they will do so. Until then, let's get back to the subject at hand - refining.

Dave


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 14, 2015)

If you have a fume hood, 50/50 nitric - 1 part 70% nitric acid/1 part distilled water - should dissolve everything - Ag, Cu, Ni - except for metallic chrome. Then dilute 1 to 1 with distilled water, filter, and cement the silver out with copper buss bar scrap. After filtering and rinsing, the silver powder should be about 99+% pure. A gallon of 70% nitric (actually 2 gallons of 50/50) should dissolve at least 93 tr.oz. (6.4 pounds - 2.9kg) of 90% Ag/10% Ni & Cu powder.


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## justinhcase (Sep 14, 2015)

g_axelsson said:


> I have been wondering a bit about the silver. It surely looks like cemented silver and where the source of pure cemented silver is from is virtually impossible to say. But I don't know of a lot of processes that would only include nickel and silver.
> Just a thought.but I find the highest impurity's seem to be the sacrificial metal I used for recovery.
> Is there any reason why some one would use nickle to dropout silver.
> Being a chemist it may have been a catalyst of some sort and not actively involved in the reaction.
> ...


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 14, 2015)

I'm probably way off track, but the nickel and chrome make me think of stainless steel. If someone used stainless steel to cement silver, I wonder what might happen... Probably not, but in this case, who knows.

Dave


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## Westerngs (Sep 14, 2015)

The first material type looks like cement silver as many have stated.

The second material type looks like something I've dealt with before. It appears to be precipitated silver powder (9999) that has been mixed with nickel powder. The mixed product is then pressed and sintered to make either sheet or some pressed powdered forms. The nickel content depends on the material properties required in the final product.

I know of 2 companies that make the product.

Of course, it could be many other things.


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## johnny309 (Sep 16, 2015)

Contact relay points?
AgNiO.........Ag 90% ...?
Most common receipe for 1 to 20 amps relays contact points.


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## butcher (Sep 18, 2015)

I do not know the source of the silver or the other base metals that may have been involved, or the recovery method used.

Silver electrical contacts or points could be one likely source of the nickel along with many other base metals like cadmium, chromium, molybdenum, copper, magnesium, iron, cadmium, tungsten, barium, zinc, and others are possible, as well as some of the more precious metals gold, platinum, palladium, iridium, rhodium, osmium, indium.
Basically a very wide range of metals can be found with processing electrical silver contacts, including lead and mercury are possibility's.

If silver and nickel and many other of these metals are dissolved into solution (some of the above listed metals will not dissolve into a nitric solution) but many will. Now depending what is used to recover the silver, could depend on what metals will follow the silver, or cement with the silver, example if iron is used many of these base metals would cement out of solution with the silver (see the reactivity series of metals for a more details), nickel would also cement out of solution if iron was used to displace the silver from a silver nitrate solution loaded with base metals, any metal below iron in solution would cement with the silver,like nickel, metals above iron would tend to stay in solution...

We have no idea of the silver source, or its recovery method used. 
Silver has many industrial uses, as well as jewelry industry, not just the electrical field which is a major consumer of silver, photography was a major user in our recent past (although less seems to be used nowadays), silver can even come from dental, or a mining source...

Nitric acid is not the only thing the silver could have been recovered from, in recovery from the photograph waste where nitric acid may have not be used to dissolve the silver, or the silver may have already be in solution, and where iron is very often used as a recovery method, but here normally the silver waste will not have other base metals involved for the iron to cement. Basically my point here is that the silver can be in other solutions besides a nitrate, and recovered from these other silver solution by a variety of methods.

It would be hard to tell the source of silver, or the recovery method used, although we can try to guess.


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## shrewdly (May 8, 2016)

I did a little research into silver alloys and there is one called 'Ag10Ni electrical silver" that is used in high temperature & conductivity applications such as electric arc refining i.e. aluminum smelting and iron refining. The other application was in windings in extremely high voltage (500KV+) transformers. A non - electrical application using a similar alloy was as a low cost replacement for platinum in catalytic converters. So as Sherlock Holmes would say "it's elementary my dear Watson" you are looking a used transformer salesman or a proprietor of a junk yard or a burnt out refiner. Come to think of it I might know one or two of the latter.

Shrewdly


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