# My cat refining method



## jaun (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi all, I just thought I’ll share my cat refining method with you, wish I could post pictures, but my camera was stolen, will post some picks when I buy a new camera.

First I leach the cats with AR (I reuse the acid)
When I’m finished with say 10 cats, I add urea until fizzing stops, and dilute further with water.

I then add steel wool. Lots of fizzing, the liquid turns clear as the steel wool dissolves and the black powder sinks to the bottom. If you use too much steel wool, the solution turns green.

Make sure all the steel wool is dissolved (no more bubbles forms), add some free HCL to make sure the steel wool is dissolved.

Decant and wash 3 times with boiling water. Add base to neutralize any access HCL, and wash with boiling water 3x again.

Then add nitric (not too much) and give a quick boil to dissolve the palladium, decant the pd solution into another beaker (be careful not to decant the black powder that’s left, that’s your platinum and rhodium)

Wash black powder 3x with little boiling water and decant it into your Pd nitrate solution, (there’s still pd in the water washes)

Now take your Pd solution and add 3x HCL. Add urea to denoxx and dilute with water. Add steel wool and wait for the Pd to settle. Wash, dry and melt.

As for the Pl/Rh powder, I don’t separate it.
I then dry and melt my platinum and Rhodium powder together and sell as Platinum.
(My buyer is very happy with this, wonder why? lol) :lol: 

My buyer tests the metals, and if it’s 98% pure I get paid for 98%, no refinery costs.
So he can have the Rhodium.

Ps: remember to wash your cats out with water after AR leach, catch that water It’s still of PGM’s!!!
I also found that boiling my cats in AR after I leached them, still yielded more Platinum 

Feel free to comment on my process.
Thanks
Jaun
8)


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 20, 2011)

Why give up your RH when you are so close to recovering it?


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## nickvc (Feb 20, 2011)

Barren I think it's a case of his buyer gets the Rh to off set the refining costs as he states he gets full price for whatever Pt is there, not a bad deal I suppose given the normal % that we can get for PGMs.


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## arthur kierski (Feb 20, 2011)

JAUN----the first leach with ar(around 10 cats)do you use hot ar?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 20, 2011)

nickvc said:


> Barren I think it's a case of his buyer gets the Rh to off set the refining costs as he states he gets full price for whatever Pt is there, not a bad deal I suppose given the normal % that we can get for PGMs.



Yea I suppose you are right. I'm just too stingy to do that I guess. I try to squeeze evey penny out I can. :twisted:


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## jaun (Feb 20, 2011)

Yes, I now use hot AR. I use a big Scott beaker on a hot plate, processing one cat at a time. (you shake the cat when done to get out the acid)
Respirator and gloves are very important!! :!: 

Nickvc is right; it’s a deal between my buyer and me.(live and let live :lol: )


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 20, 2011)

jaun said:


> Yes, I now use hot AR. I use a big Scott beaker on a hot plate, processing one cat at a time. (you shake the cat when done to get out the acid)
> Respirator and gloves are very important!! :!:
> 
> Nickvc is right; it’s a deal between my buyer and me.(live and let live :lol: )



That is understood. You must work with the terms that are dictated to you at times.


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## Irons (Feb 20, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> nickvc said:
> 
> 
> > Barren I think it's a case of his buyer gets the Rh to off set the refining costs as he states he gets full price for whatever Pt is there, not a bad deal I suppose given the normal % that we can get for PGMs.
> ...



You too, eh? :mrgreen: 

Everything but the squeal.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 20, 2011)

Irons said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > nickvc said:
> ...



Hell I even get the squeal. 8)


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 24, 2011)

An interesting method of PGM recovery/refining. Although I recently got my hands on PGMs refining, about the Pt/Rh powder, can one just dissolve that in AR, then percipitate the Pt using ammonium chloride, and the left gray mud will be pure Rh?

Thanks
Kev


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## Lou (Feb 24, 2011)

Not pure, but close.


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## jaun (Feb 24, 2011)

Kef, if I want to separate the Pt/Rh powder, I’d use the hot concentrated sulphuric acid method. The Rh dissolves, and the powder that’s left is your Pt.

I don’t recover Rh, so someone else could be of better help.

Regards
Jaun
8)


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## jaun (Feb 24, 2011)

Remember; my method is recovering, not refining.

To me it makes no sense to make 99.999% pure metal. If my metals are 97 or 98%, I get paid for that %. (you are going to pay for the refinery cost anyway, whether it’s 99% or 98%) 

Ps: If you think cat refining is difficult, try dogs! :lol:


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 24, 2011)

Juan
once i dissolved the Rh in acid, how do i percipitate it?


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## Lou (Feb 25, 2011)

You can plate it out, you can drop it with zinc, you can use other methods (i.e. dilute and then use sodium sulfide and filter the rhodium (III) sulfide, and then heat--this works for most PGMs but not all).


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 26, 2011)

Jaun,

I tried your method of recovery, added Urea to the PGM solution, and stirred it, added another spoon, and it didn't fizz, so I added a small piece of steel wool, and it fizzed, but the color changed to green. Where did i go wrong? steel wool is far less expensive than zinc.

Thanks
Kev


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## skippy (Feb 26, 2011)

jaun said:


> When I’m finished with say 10 cats, I add urea until fizzing stops, and dilute further with water.
> 
> I then add steel wool. Lots of fizzing, the liquid turns clear as the steel wool dissolves and the black powder sinks to the bottom. *If you use too much steel wool, the solution turns green*.
> 
> 8)



Kev, there's the answer to your green solution up there in the first post! 

Im not sure if it's universally accurate to say it turns green when too much iron is added, it might depend on how concentrated your PGM solution is. If you had a very concentrated solution, you might have to use enough iron to completely precipitate that the iron chloride in solution would turn your final solution green. 

Also, I'm pretty sure there are some considerations when using urea with precious metals solutions, and with PGMs in particular, that you might want to do a search on in the forum to more fully understand. I'm quite sure it's been discussed, or maybe someone can address it here.


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## Lou (Feb 26, 2011)

Platinum turns green during any two step reduction as it goes from being Pt(IV) to Pt(II) to Pt(0).

Ever noticed a sickly green hue just before the solution becomes turbid and material precipitates?

Lou


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 26, 2011)

skippy said:


> jaun said:
> 
> 
> > When I’m finished with say 10 cats, I add urea until fizzing stops, and dilute further with water.
> ...



I knew there wasn't a lot of PGM in this sample solution i was testhing this method, after heating, dropped in some Urea granule, till no more fizzing, then i dropped in a tiny piece of steel wool, and that turned the solution into greenish color. I read the forum Urea +denoxx and it showed only 4 posts, stating it might complicate the recovery.

So i assume, after gentle heating comb in AR, just evaporate the nitric add HCL, then add soda ash, then zinc percipitation. add nitric to the black powder, boil, decant and drop the Pd with zinc, refine with ammonia, and separate the Pt/Rh left from AR boiling.

Kev


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## skippy (Feb 26, 2011)

Have you checked with a stannous test before and after your steel wool addition? 

Go to advanced search and search only in the PGM forum for urea. It's not something I know too much about, 
I've just read enough to know that it's something that you might want to learn more about before getting carried away with it.


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## Lou (Feb 26, 2011)

Less is more with urea. Some people swear by it, but any competent refiner need not ever use it as there are workarounds (if you could call them that) which offer many advantages and side step its problems.

I'd keep urea out of PGM refining. Period.


Lou


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## jaun (Feb 27, 2011)

Kef, did you dilute the solution with water after adding urea?

Don’t worry about the solution turning green, just make sure you cement out all your PGM’s. Test your solution with stannous to make sure its all out of solution.

You don’t need urea if you dilute with enough water, dilute with 10x water.
(Or use soda ash)

The same with gold, you don’t need urea (or evaporation) if you dilute with 10x water, I’ve done this many times, and I precipitate all the gold (I always test with stannous)

The only time I will use evaporation to get rid of nitric is if I refine Pt and Pd with ammonium chloride and sodium chlorate method, because the solution has to be concentrated in order for the Pt and Pd to precipitate. 

I use urea, because I like to use it.
Lou is right, it’s not a good idea to use urea in PGM refining, but I’m just recovering not refining.

Ps; Here’s a good one: There’s many ways to skin a Cat. he he he :lol: 

Jaun 
8)


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 27, 2011)

Jaun,

Here is what I did. the AR solution had small amount of PGMs, this is what it looks like after urea addition.



This is what it looks like after addition of steel wool.



i also think Steve's method is the optimum for recovery/refining PGMs from cats, in my new posts I am processing 9 honeycombs in the same AR solution. I am just not clear should i do gentle heating for few hrs or boil for shorter time?

Thanks
Kev


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## Balance (Mar 8, 2011)

Juan,
I am intriqued, impressed, some what excited, and extremely interested in you method, but I have a few questions to ask of you;

1. what type of cats did you use??? large gm's? aftermarkets? pre cats? domestics? foreign? etc....
2. what was your cost for these 10 cats?
3. did you buy them as cats or catalyst??
4. how much Platinum, Palladium, and Rhodium did you get from each cat, or from the totaly out of the 10 cats??
5. and how much money did you get for the Platinum, Palladium, Rhodium???
6. what was the cost verses the profit? 
7. percentage of profit?
8. and long did it take to do this??

Thanks
Mike


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## skippy (Mar 8, 2011)

Are you sure you didn't mean quite a few questions instead of a few questions?
I believe his name is Jaun, it might help your cause if you get his name right :lol: 




Balance said:


> Juan,
> I am intriqued, impressed, some what excited, and extremely interested in you method, but I have a few questions to ask of you;
> 
> 1. what type of cats did you use??? large gm's? aftermarkets? pre cats? domestics? foreign? etc....
> ...


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## seawolf (Mar 8, 2011)

I read in the post that you want to circulate the acid solution. A more cost effective method may be to attach the cats to a paddle made from an acid resistant plastic with zip ties then lower the paddle with cats into a five gallon bucket containing the acid. Connect the paddle to a shaft on a step down pulley and allow it to spin the cats placed with the open ends facing in the direction of travel should force the acid solution through the cats washing out the PGMs. 
A second bucket with clear water can be used to rinse the cats of remaining acid and PGMs. The zip ties are cheep and expendable for one time use. Depending on the size of the cats and the size of the container you should be able to process 2 – 10 combs at a time.
Mark


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## skippy (Mar 9, 2011)

I think that's an interesting idea. You could maybe even just vibrate the combs. Regular zip ties wouldn't work though , as they are nylon and nylon won't stand the acid even for a single use.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 9, 2011)

skippy said:


> I think that's an interesting idea. You could maybe even just vibrate the combs. Regular zip ties wouldn't work though , as they are nylon and nylon won't stand the acid even for a single use.



I'v used ties to hold an air line to a pipe to rejuvinate my AP with no problem.


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## qst42know (Mar 9, 2011)

I believe Lou mentioned nitric as the acid that readily attacked nylon, so AR certainly will.


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## skippy (Mar 9, 2011)

Barren, thanks, I guess nylon may have sufficient resistance in some applications.
You can get zip ties made from other plastics apparently, I looked it up and you can get ones made from PP and fluoropolymers as well. I bet the fluoropolymer might be a bit too expensive to use where you want them to be one use disposable!


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## qst42know (Mar 13, 2011)

You can find PVC solid rods to heat bend into a shape to stir with.


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## Joeforbes (Apr 27, 2011)

What happens to the carbon from the steel wool during this process? Where does it end up?


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## Lou (Apr 28, 2011)

In your platinum as a carbide impurity.


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## Joeforbes (Apr 28, 2011)

Is there a relatively simple way to remove it?


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 28, 2011)

Joeforbes said:


> Is there a relatively simple way to remove it?



Using zinc instead is an alternative, quicker and no need to remove the carbon.


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## jjohio (Aug 10, 2011)

what went wrong if i added urea and no fizzing occured?


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## Joeforbes (Aug 12, 2011)

jjohio said:


> what went wrong if i added urea and no fizzing occured?



There was no nitric left for the urea to react with.


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## rewalston (Aug 12, 2011)

jaun said:


> Remember; my method is recovering, not refining.
> 
> To me it makes no sense to make 99.999% pure metal. If my metals are 97 or 98%, I get paid for that %. (you are going to pay for the refinery cost anyway, whether it’s 99% or 98%)
> 
> Ps: If you think cat refining is difficult, try dogs! :lol:



I had that problem Juan, my house had a cat/dog amalgamate...I've refined it down and I can honestly say that I now have cats that are 100%, now I'm not sure what to do with the leftover sludge :lol:

Rusty


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## jjohio (Aug 12, 2011)

When heating these cats, how hot are u getting it?...crock pot on high?...or hotter?


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