# GP/GF Watches gold content



## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

Hey,
I just got into gold refining/recovery over half a year now and found out that processing RAM Fingers doesnt make you rich 
I mostly do it for fun but of course everyone likes gold. As a matter of fact I made losses until now for buying beakers, chemicals, respirators, ... .
After looking into buying old Karat jewlery i thought its maby more profitable and interesting to work with. Here at my place i get those gold plated watches with 20 microns of gold plating basically for free. There are just 5 to 10 dollars (EUR). Does someone has an estimate of how much gold there can be extracted from the watches shown below.

The first one is actually RPG (Rolled Gold Plate) so not far away from filled?
Is there any value to recover there?
How much gold gets removed over time in the role of protecting the watch over 5, 10, 20 or more years?

I would appreciate all information about plating/gold content/refining/other about plated jewlery.
PS: I just have HCl/Peroxide/Bleach (selfmade H2So4 if needed (I would like to not use it))

Edit: nickvc pointed out to make poormans AR. I could do that but I want to avoid using any nitrate chemicals. I have a stockpot with just chlorides and I rather want to avoid NOx gases / nitric acid in gerneral.

David


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## nickvc (May 4, 2022)

David much gold plated jewellery has very little gold , as little as 1 gram per kilo and can be real pain to run and the different base metals can and will cause problems, the ram fingers will seem much better to run , remember the chips on ram contain a good proportion of the gold.
Without nitric you will struggle with carat gold material, you can use poormans AR , just find some nitrate fertilizer and add slowly to HCl .


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## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

nickvc said:


> David much gold plated jewellery has very little gold , as little as 1 gram per kilo and can be real pain to run and the different base metals can and will cause problems, the ram fingers will seem much better to run , remember the chips on ram contain a good proportion of the gold.
> Without nitric you will struggle with carat gold material, you can use poormans AR , just find some nitrate fertilizer and add slowly to HCl .


Hey Nick,
I thought about disolving the gold with hcl and bleach. I know it wont stay in solution because of the base metals below. But wouldnt it be that the gold dissolves first and then precipitates out as powder? I could let this run a while and collect the dust at the bottom and collect the big parts at the end?
I would have just 20 microns plated jewlery which should be much thicker than any electronics as far as I know? From my knowlage Ram today has just like 0.75-1.5 microns plating? Please correct me if im wrong. Im still very new to chemistry/refining.
David


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## silver1 (May 4, 2022)




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## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

silver1 said:


> View attachment 49915


Does the gram unit correlate to the raw weight of the scrap. 200g of gold watch scrap corresponds to 0.2$ * 200 => 40$ of 24K pure gold?


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## nickvc (May 4, 2022)

A lot of the plated jewellery is literally flash plated, gold filled / rolled gold has a sheet of carat gold bonded to the base metal.
You could try your method but once the the base metal is exposed the gold will cement out and the solution will then attack the base metals and dissolve them and not the gold .
With plated materials you either selectively dissolve the gold with cyanide, iodine or use the sulphuric cell or dissolve the base metals leaving the gold, AP is a good example of this.
The thing to remember about jewellery is the mass / weight of base metal compared to the weight of possible gold so even if the plating is thicker by weight you will recover less by comparable volume.
If you have stainless steel gold plated hot, really hot HCl will do the job.


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## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

nickvc said:


> A lot of the plated jewellery is literally flash plated, gold filled / rolled gold has a sheet of carat gold bonded to the base metal.
> You could try your method but once the the base metal is exposed the gold will cement out and the solution will then attack the base metals and dissolve them and not the gold .
> With plated materials you either selectively dissolve the gold with cyanide, iodine or use the sulphuric cell or dissolve the base metals leaving the gold, AP is a good example of this.
> The thing to remember about jewellery is the mass / weight of base metal compared to the weight of possible gold so even if the plating is thicker by weight you will recover less by comparable volume.
> If you have stainless steel gold plated hot, really hot HCl will do the job.


Thanks for your help 

As soon as the gold plating all disolved i take out the base metal casing from the watch. Then I should have a chloroauric acid solution with some cemented gold at the bottom which I further can dissolve. Maby boil it in HCl for a bit in case any basemetal came off the casing into solution/gold cement. Would that work like that? I dont see why I have to dissolve all when its just gold on the outside?
Im not a good chemist so please forgive me my maby "naiv" questions. 

David


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## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

nickvc said:


> A lot of the plated jewellery is literally flash plated, gold filled / rolled gold has a sheet of carat gold bonded to the base metal.
> You could try your method but once the the base metal is exposed the gold will cement out and the solution will then attack the base metals and dissolve them and not the gold .
> With plated materials you either selectively dissolve the gold with cyanide, iodine or use the sulphuric cell or dissolve the base metals leaving the gold, AP is a good example of this.
> The thing to remember about jewellery is the mass / weight of base metal compared to the weight of possible gold so even if the plating is thicker by weight you will recover less by comparable volume.
> If you have stainless steel gold plated hot, really hot HCl will do the job.


How hot does it has to be in order to dissolve stainless steel with HCl?
How does the Concentration affect it?
Do I have to add more water for the stainless steel to go somewhere?
How long does it take to dissolve it?


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## nickvc (May 4, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Thanks for your help
> 
> As soon as the gold plating all disolved i take out the base metal casing from the watch. Then I should have a chloroauric acid solution with some cemented gold at the bottom which I further can dissolve. Maby boil it in HCl for a bit in case any basemetal came off the casing into solution/gold cement. Would that work like that? I dont see why I have to dissolve all when its just gold on the outside?
> Im not a good chemist so please forgive me my maby "naiv" questions.
> ...



you are missing the point here as soon as the base metal is exposed any gold dissolved will cement out and the acid will then dissolve the base metals and the gold will dissolve last ince all base metals are gone.


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## nickvc (May 4, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> How hot does it has to be in order to dissolve stainless steel with HCl?
> How does the Concentration affect it?
> Do I have to add more water for the stainless steel to go somewhere?
> How long does it take to dissolve it?



You need the acid almost boiling and if you are lucky the plating will flake off if not you will have to dissolve all the stainless.
Use it full strength no water required in fact it will slow the process, it takes as long as it takes I’m afraid.


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## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

nickvc said:


> you are missing the point here as soon as the base metal is exposed any gold dissolved will cement out and the acid will then dissolve the base metals and the gold will dissolve last ince all base metals are gone.


Would that be a problem? Cant I just catch the cement and disolve seperatly/refine seperatly?
My thought is to just get it off the jewlery and care about the solution and cement later. For seperating I tought it would work?
David


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## nickvc (May 4, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Would that be a problem? Cant I just catch the cement and disolve seperatly/refine seperatly?
> My thought is to just get it off the jewlery and care about the solution and cement later. For seperating I tought it would work?
> David


You have a live reaction with some gold in solution until you get to base metal, once the reaction reaches base metal it will cement the gold out and then dissolve the base metals and until all base metals are gone how can you separate the gold from the base metals, you might be lucky and the gold will flake off and then you could separate it.


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## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

nickvc said:


> You have a live reaction with some gold in solution until you get to base metal, once the reaction reaches base metal it will cement the gold out and then dissolve the base metals and until all base metals are gone how can you separate the gold from the base metals, you might be lucky and the gold will flake off and then you could separate it.


First all gold is dissolved. When it hits the base metal its starts cementing out. Then I wait for all to cement out and then collect the dust. After pouring out the liquid there should be cemented gold powder and watch case frame? The case is pretty thick (few mm) so i assumed it wouldnt just dissolve in a day. Sorry I try to give my best writing down my thoughts.
David


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## nickvc (May 4, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> First all gold is dissolved. When it hits the base metal its starts cementing out. Then I wait for all to cement out and then collect the dust. After pouring out the liquid there should be cemented gold powder and watch case frame? The case is pretty thick (few mm) so i assumed it wouldnt just dissolve in a day. Sorry I try to give my best writing down my thoughts.
> David


No not all the gold will dissolve some will but it could be very little and once the base metals are exposed any gold dissolved will cement out and the acid will just dissolve base metals…..


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## GoldUser (May 4, 2022)

nickvc said:


> No not all the gold will dissolve some will but it could be very little and once the base metals are exposed any gold dissolved will cement out and the acid will just dissolve base metals…..


Ahh okay,
thanks for taking the time and patience and helping me


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## butcher (May 4, 2022)

As the gold is dissolved into a solution, with copper and or base metal undissolved in this solution, the gold will try to plate back onto the copper or base metals remaining.

As the base metals dissolve to replace the gold, some gold will fall loose from the copper or metal as cemented powders and some of the gold will become roughly plated to the remaining metal. 

Some gold will remain on or inside the remaining undissolved metal parts.

If the gold is on the outer surface ( like on a copper buss-bar) the rough brown colored gold plating can be mechanically brushed off into an oxidized acidic solution to clean the loose gold plating from the copper flat bar.

On other parts where the gold is plated back onto the copper or base metal, the gold can get hidden in deep cracks or places where the acid may have a hard time reaching (or you're unable to reach with a brush), like under or in-between fiberglass of circuit boards, under solder, mask the gold will remain until all the metals are dissolved, or where the acids can freely reach all exposed metals (not sandwhiched or hidden) and dissolve all of the metals.

Hidden places like deep cracks, under solder masks, hidden copper traces sandwiched in fiberglass circuit boards, places where a solution of dissolved gold can seep into the copper will give up electrons to the gold which will plate back onto the remaining undissolved remaining copper in this hidden area, gas bubbles released from the reaction trying to escape this crack or the sandwiched area will block any fresh acid trying to get into this area to finish dissolving base metal or the gold.


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## butcher (May 4, 2022)

If the parts gold plated are plated onto a material, like stainless steel, it can make more sense to try and use an acid or solution (leach) that would dissolve the gold plating and not dissolve the steel to any extent.

Or using a solution that will attack the base plating under the gold plating, dissolving the base undermining the goldplate on the steel, without dissolving the gold or the steel to any extent setting the gold free as foils or powders.

Most cheaply gold plated watches may be worth more working, replacing a battery in a watch and selling it as a working watch may get you more gold than you can get by destroying or dissolving the watch.


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## shruli (May 5, 2022)

One option would be poor mans AR for small batches of gold filled/rolled gold. You can use as low as 10% HCL brick cleaner with a teaspoon of meat curing salt (potassium nitrate). Strip any separate base metals off that you can, for example springs, hinges. Add your HCL to your beaker about four times higher than your gold filled material, put on heat and add potassium nitrate. When solution is saturated, do it again, keeping waste solution in a separate larger container.
Depending on your gold filled quality, by the third or fourth solution, you will be down to just your carat gold which I now find quite easy to judge. Your final beaker should dissolve all your carat gold. I would then add cold salted tap water to the final beaker to double the solution and then filter. SMB or ascorbic acid to precipitate your gold.
My waste solution would all go into a 25ltr container, diluted with water & ascorbic acid & I would leave it for a couple of weeks for any precious metals to settle on the bottom. All the gold captured is re refined at different stages. 
If I have what looks like decent gold plated items, I will drop them in AP solution (depending on the base metal) and see any gold recovered as a bonus. I find newer plated items are not worth messing with.
Hope this helps someone, and any tips to improve my method are always appreciated.
Keith


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## GoldUser (May 5, 2022)

shruli said:


> One option would be poor mans AR for small batches of gold filled/rolled gold. You can use as low as 10% HCL brick cleaner with a teaspoon of meat curing salt (potassium nitrate). Strip any separate base metals off that you can, for example springs, hinges. Add your HCL to your beaker about four times higher than your gold filled material, put on heat and add potassium nitrate. When solution is saturated, do it again, keeping waste solution in a separate larger container.
> Depending on your gold filled quality, by the third or fourth solution, you will be down to just your carat gold which I now find quite easy to judge. Your final beaker should dissolve all your carat gold. I would then add cold salted tap water to the final beaker to double the solution and then filter. SMB or ascorbic acid to precipitate your gold.
> My waste solution would all go into a 25ltr container, diluted with water & ascorbic acid & I would leave it for a couple of weeks for any precious metals to settle on the bottom. All the gold captured is re refined at different stages.
> If I have what looks like decent gold plated items, I will drop them in AP solution (depending on the base metal) and see any gold recovered as a bonus. I find newer plated items are not worth messing with.
> ...


Thank you very much thats all really helpful 
I havnt heared from the curing salt method. I will keep that in mind. Isnt it a problem that there is also sodium chloride(salt) in the curing salt? Can I use my stockpot with nitrates and chlorides? Until now I have just used and put HCl / Peroxide / Bleach in my stockpot. How does it affect my stock pot when I use nitrates and chlorides?

Edit: How much concentration does the curing salt has to have? (potassium nitrate)
I could get my hands on 15% potassium nitrate solution 85% distilled water. I would assume that would work too?

David


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## GoldUser (May 5, 2022)

butcher said:


> If the parts gold plated are plated onto a material, like stainless steel, it can make more sense to try and use an acid or solution (leach) that would dissolve the gold plating and not dissolve the steel to any extent.
> 
> Or using a solution that will attack the base plating under the gold plating, dissolving the base undermining the goldplate on the steel, without dissolving the gold or the steel to any extent setting the gold free as foils or powders.
> 
> Most cheaply gold plated watches may be worth more working, replacing a battery in a watch and selling it as a working watch may get you more gold than you can get by destroying or dissolving the watch.


Thanks butcher,
I can just dissolve with bleach (NaOCl) dont have access to cyanite or something. Its just for educational purpose and enjoyment for chemistry. What kind of metals are used to plate on the gold? Do they also plate the gold directly on the steel?
David


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## butcher (May 5, 2022)

As far as I understand they do not plate gold directly to many metals, or materials like glass or dried flowers...
Normally a base layer of nickel (or other strike plating or substance) will be plated onto the metal then gold plated on top of that. I believe they call the base metal plating a strike plating.


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## shruli (May 5, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Thank you very much thats all really helpful
> I havnt heared from the curing salt method. I will keep that in mind. Isnt it a problem that there is also sodium chloride(salt) in the curing salt? Can I use my stockpot with nitrates and chlorides? Until now I have just used and put HCl / Peroxide / Bleach in my stockpot. How does it affect my stock pot when I use nitrates and chlorides?
> 
> Edit: How much concentration does the curing salt has to have? (potassium nitrate)
> ...


99.9% pure potassium nitrate, saltpetre powder, which I get from Amazon, poor mans AR is a common method used where nitric acid is difficult to obtain. Sorry I don't know about its reaction with anything other than HCL.


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## GoldUser (May 5, 2022)

butcher said:


> As far as I understand they do not plate gold directly to many metals, or materials like glass or dried flowers...
> Normally a base layer of nickel (or other strike plating or substance) will be plated onto the metal then gold plated on top of that. I believe they call the base metal plating a strike plating.


Acid/Peroxide should remove all of the metal below the plating is that assumption right?


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## GoldUser (May 5, 2022)

butcher said:


> As far as I understand they do not plate gold directly to many metals, or materials like glass or dried flowers...
> Normally a base layer of nickel (or other strike plating or substance) will be plated onto the metal then gold plated on top of that. I believe they call the base metal plating a strike plating.


Some of the watches are from the 60s 70s could there be some hazardous compounds like mentioned in hokes book?


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## butcher (May 5, 2022)

I am unsure of what harmful compounds you are referring to, I cannot think of anything that would be in a watch that I would have had as a young man that would be more dangerous or hazardous than a watch I could get today.

Hoke's Book when she wrote it was some time before the 1960s, I believe she originally published her book in 1938, back when they put more gold into what they made, I cannot think of anything that would be more dangerous in a watch of her day.

Many metals that may be in a watch or in almost anything else, once put into a solution, dissolved, or made into a gas or a compound can become a poison, a hazardous substance, or an irritant independent of when it was made.

Cupric chloride (what you are calling acid/peroxide) can be used, it would be slow, and you could attack base metals without attacking gold (depending on how you use or run the leaching process).

Ferric chloride hot and concentrated will work similarly but also much faster and more aggressive.

H2SO4 and a nitrate salt (poor-mans nitric) which attacks base metals and not gold is also an option.

Or depending on your use of the oxidizing agent and its use could be used similar to what Shruti has been suggesting where the leach attacks all metals and he recovers gold from the leach with a poor-mans aqua regia based type leaching process using HCl and a nitrate salt.

There are several ways you could attack the problem and come to similar results, understanding the problem and the basic principles and reactions may be more important to a successful outcome than how you attack it.


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