# Newbie with a dilema! Wrong Sodium Nitrate?



## hemicuda (Dec 20, 2007)

Hello everyone! I am new to the forum and I am wondering if anybody has encountered the same trouble I have. I am using AR to dissolve Gold from 486 pro's strictly. Only problem is I think I have the wrong Sodium Nitrate.The Sodium Nitrate I have purchased is a food grade that is listed as "full strength for curing meat".
I have read in other locations that i am to use a so called 'lab' grade Sodium Nitrate.....I am assuming I made a huge WHOOPS. Although I did get a reaction albeit small. I have gone no further in the testing of my possible Gold bearing AR.
I did notice that some of the Gold had been stripped from the pins on the pro's but not completely.
Any help would be a greatly appreciated! 


> Get Good First,Get Fast Next.....Me


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## Noxx (Dec 20, 2007)

Well I don't think it would affect it's potency. Food grade is 99.5%+ (I think) Are you sure you have Sodium Nitrate and you use the good ratios ?


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## junkelly (Dec 20, 2007)

Are you sure that you have sodium nitrATE (NaNO3) and not sodium nitrITE (NaN02)? Wikipedia claims they both are used as food preservatives, but I think that nitrite is much more common. I believe only the nitrate salt is useful for making AR...

-junkelly


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## hemicuda (Dec 20, 2007)

Hey Noxx!
thanx for your attention to this post....yes i have used 2 different mix ratios in regards to this problem. the first ratio was obtained via a purchase off of Ebay. I found that the Sodium Nitrate took quite a while to dissolve in hot water that had been boiled on an element. Upon close inspection I had noticed that the Nitrate had not fully dissolved in the water.so i poured off what did dissolve into my batch of pro's and then added the Muriatic to the mix.This stage of the process seemed to work well as the reaction went along as stated in the E-bay purchase. So I let the mix sit in the bucket outside over night in the snow! Checking the mix the next day revealed the problem I speak of.I had also noticed a strong odour of salt coming from the bucket as well.

After the percentage of the Sodium Nitrate that did dissolve in the hot water was poured off,( roughly about 1/2 of the Sodium Nitrate), I set the undissolved Sodium Nitrate aside and boiled more water to mix with the undissolved S.N.which was added a few hours later.

The S.N. that I am using has a consistency of table salt...NOT even close to the pellet or prill form I have seen used in some of the pictures posted.

So maybe just maybe is there a possibility that there is way too much Sodium?

And yes I am using the proper protective equipment in these procedures!.
lol

The second mixture came from a posting in the forum.which I wrote down after double checking the mix ratio.and doing the same upon doing the mix.
Thanx again for your help!


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## hemicuda (Dec 20, 2007)

Hey Junkelly!
Yes I have checked and checked and rechecked...lol. The product that I have purchased came in a bag (brown paper exterior lined with plastic inside) and was properly labeled as.......Sodium NitrATE, food grade, for curing meat.

I have noticed one thing that does strike me as odd though.....I noticed a full bag of Sodium Nitrate in a picture posted in one of the forums and it has the yellow hasmat label on the bag that says" 5.1 oxidizer"and is in a full blown,plastic,not paper bag.Upon rechecking my product I find no such a label.....so I am absolutely baffled.. :?: :shock:

The only thing I can say is....HELP!!!!!....lol


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## Lou (Dec 20, 2007)

Sodium nitrate is very soluble. Sodium nitrite is less soluble.

I am willing to bet you have sodium nitrite, which will not work, as there is the wrong charge on the nitrogen.

Sodium nitrite is much more common in curing meat than sodium nitrate.

An easy test is adding your powder to silver nitrate solution, if it is nitrate, there will be no precipitation, if it is nitrite, there will be. Or, make a dilute solution (2M) of sulfuric acid and chill it. Then add your ''sodium nitrate'' to it. If there is a green color, then you have sodium nitrite.


Lou



Lou


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## Platdigger (Dec 20, 2007)

I am with you Lou, Sounds like he has nitrite.
BTW, excellent post, as usual.
Randy


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## hemicuda (Dec 20, 2007)

Wow.
I thank all of you for your help in regards to this matter...but can you explain why I had a positive reaction? this reaction being all of the brown 'off' gases?
and have I trashed the batches I have ran?
I did a test on both batches with the gold test solution and neither shows any traces of gold in suspension. So do I bide my time and wait for my fresh order of 98% Sodium Nitrate to arrive in mid January...or?....is there another available source? I have read in Wikipedia that Salt Peter is the same.

He he he he thank god the gold is still mostly on the pro's!

I should sign this post as GETTING ANCY IN CANADA! but patience is a virtue well sought!.....


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## chasm1933 (Dec 20, 2007)

hemicuda said:


> Wow.
> I thank all of you for your help in regards to this matter...but can you explain why I had a positive reaction? this reaction being all of the brown 'off' gases?
> and have I trashed the batches I have ran?
> I did a test on both batches with the gold test solution and neither shows any traces of gold in suspension. So do I bide my time and wait for my fresh order of 98% Sodium Nitrate to arrive in mid January...or?....is there another available source? I have read in Wikipedia that Salt Peter is the same.
> ...


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## Lou (Dec 20, 2007)

Well, the brown evolution of gas is usually a good indication of it working but, the gases produced by NO2{-1} (nitrite anion) oxidize with air to that brown nitrogen dioxide you're seeing.

Really man, unless you're hydrochloric acid is really really dilute, you should've seen the the gold being attacked and the solution yellowing up nicely.


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## hemicuda (Dec 20, 2007)

Okay I did the test as per your comment Lou, and i have this to report..in dilute chilled Sulphuric acid I added my Sodium Nitrate..the solution turned a very faint yellow. not green.( yes I have proof of this I found the bill of sale stating "Sodium Nitrate salt cure,full strength.") 
Some of the gold had been stripped unless it had been coated. As the tips of the pins were blackened. but the pins had not been removed.
The contents were also completely submerged in solution.....

Alas i still remain stumped.but hopeful.


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## lazersteve (Dec 20, 2007)

Hemi,

Can you confirm the concentration of your muriatic acid is in the 30% range (31.45%)? 

With poor man's AR (sodium nitrate and muriatic acid) you should boil the niter and HCl until the solution turns orange before adding it to the scrap.

If you didn't get the orange color change you may not have formed enough AR to do the job.

If you had any iron alloy in the mix it may have prevented the AR from working as the iron will displace the gold as a black powder which deposits on the base metal surfaces in the scrap.

Are you sure your stannous chloride is fresh and working properly? Do a control test by dissolving a few shaved finger foils in HCl-Cl and testing with your stannous. You should get a nice purple colored reaction.

Steve


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## hemicuda (Dec 20, 2007)

Oh sorry I didn't post my mix ratio...which is..

4lbs material..(pro's)
1/2 lb Sodium Nitrate in 2 full cups of boiling water.
4 full cups of Muriatic acid.
I hope this might help with my dilemma!

I still have faith and refuse to give up....lol


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## Ageo308 (Dec 21, 2007)

I must have missed something, why are you using sodium nitrate instead of nitric acid?

4 parts HCL to 1 part nitric does a beautiful job for making AR


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## lazersteve (Dec 21, 2007)

Ageo,

Sodium nitrate and HCl is a common substitute for real AR when you don't have access to nitric acid. I call it Poor Man's AR.

Steve


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## hemicuda (Dec 21, 2007)

Hello All! 
Again I will try a fresh batch with boiling AR.
Thanks to all who have posted, this dilemma shall be solved soon!
I will be making up some Nitric Acid soon,as I have done some pin and finger stripping in the crock pot and I am very impressed with the results. Cheers for now and I will keep everyone posted....possibly try to post some pictures.

From Keith.


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## Ageo308 (Dec 21, 2007)

lazersteve said:


> Ageo,
> 
> Sodium nitrate and HCl is a common substitute for real AR when you don't have access to nitric acid. I call it Poor Man's AR.
> 
> Steve



I didnt realise how hard it is for some people to obtain nitric acid. I can get 70% pure nitric acid over here for $3.50AUD per litre.

anywayz good to know there is alternatives


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## Noxx (Dec 21, 2007)

Ageo308 said:


> I didnt realise how hard it is for some people to obtain nitric acid. I can get 70% pure nitric acid over here for $3.50AUD per litre.
> 
> anywayz good to know there is alternatives



:shock: :shock: :shock: 

That's about 3.25$CAN !!


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## Never_Evil (Dec 22, 2007)

> That's about 3.25$CAN !!



So thats about 50 cents american? Sorry, just thinking about the good old days when the US dollar was considerable more than the Canadian. Ok with that shameful comment made, I shall crawl back to my corner.


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## Ageo308 (Dec 22, 2007)

Noxx said:


> Ageo308 said:
> 
> 
> > I didnt realise how hard it is for some people to obtain nitric acid. I can get 70% pure nitric acid over here for $3.50AUD per litre.
> ...



Its better than no nitric acid at all :lol:


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## jonrms (Oct 24, 2017)

So which one 
Sodium Nitrate or 

Sodium Nitrite?

Both are for curing foods. 


Then do you add Muriac acid? Let the metals dissolve? Filter and continue as you would with the obvious exception of the " Nitric Acid " . 

Serious question. I have been ripping apart computers for years then making them by melting all the metal as one in to a 50 to 100g bar for later refining. I am nearly ready to start refing but as we all know the laws changed so I need help to complete what I started


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## Lino1406 (Oct 24, 2017)

Sodium nitrate + muriatic acid


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## Topher_osAUrus (Oct 24, 2017)

jonrms said:


> Then do you add Muriac acid? Let the metals dissolve? Filter and continue as you would with the obvious exception of the " Nitric Acid " .
> 
> Serious question. I have been ripping apart computers for years then making them by melting all the metal as one in to a 50 to 100g bar for later refining. I am nearly ready to start refing but as we all know the laws changed so I need help to complete what I started



As Lino said, nitrate. 

I wouldnt get your hopes up of finishing what you started any time soon. Not if you want to do it safely and proficiently.

Melting everything together is going to make this probably 1000 times more difficult than it was already going to be. I would suggest researching and making a copper sulfate cell, but you will have no end to problems when it comes to keeping your electrolyte in proper working condition.

I would say melt it and cornflake or shot it, then run it in nitric. But then you would surely have metastannic sludge and problems the entire rest of the processes. Having tin sludge in the mix makes the work take 50 times longer. -when its still solder thats visible, it can be pretreated and removed so it doesnt make it to the nitric leach. It being melted together, it is now homogenously mixed in the bars (the homogenous bit is an assumption and conjecture at best) so removing the tin initially is now completely out of the question.

You could dissolve it in AR or poorman AR, which is why you are on this thread I presume. Though, it too, has problems. The amount of waste acid will be immense. 1. Gallon of acid dissolves about 2 pounds of metal, but with poorman AR, it has to be diluted (more so than usual) to dissolve the nitrate, and keep the salts in solution. Additionally, all those base metals are again going to cause nothing but grief here as well. Lead and tin make solutions take days to filter, as well as tin can create colloidal gold (the working principle of stannous test solution) which wouldnt even be settled out after a millennia. One of the other problems with this method is, when the acid is fresh, gold will dissolve (what little it can), eventuslly as the acid works away, more and more base metals will be dissolved and that gold will be reduced back out of solution as micro fine black sludge, which could take a good long while to settle. 

One of the issues new refiners have is practicing patience, if you dont have that discipline here, you can and will very easily pour out your gold with the spent acid.

So whats a guy to do...
Well, if it was me... ...man, thats a tough question, but, I think I would try a copper sulfate cell for a few weeks, then when I get tired of changing the electrolyte because of it constantly being fouled up (which it inevitably will). I would just drill a hole in the brick, run my air bubbler hose through it, and throw it in my stockpot so it can cement trace values out of my other runs of better stuff. That is probably the only really viable option. Why? Because the precious metal value in computers is small, very small. (Were talking microinches of plating..) While the cost of chemicals, labor, etc... Is quite high. Breaking even is probably only possible if using these bars as a copper feedstock for the stockpot


This may seem like an epic novel of discouragement, but, I'm just trying to help grant you the understanding that myself and many others here had to learn the hard way. This was in no way, shape, or form, trying to scare you off because its "impossible" -its not impossible, its just uneconomical


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## jonrms (Oct 24, 2017)

That was the most helpful reply I received. Thank you. Although I think I might pass on the electrolyte contraption. Drilling a hole or cutting it with would work well. 
Your 100% correct about the lack of nitric acid. Yes making the acid is easily done but I am not for breaking the law. 

Poor man's aqua Regis here I come... soon. Lol


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## Topher_osAUrus (Oct 24, 2017)

jonrms said:


> That was the most helpful reply I received. Thank you. Although I think I might pass on the electrolyte contraption. Drilling a hole or cutting it with would work well.
> Your 100% correct about the lack of nitric acid. Yes making the acid is easily done but I am not for breaking the law.
> 
> Poor man's aqua Regis here I come... soon. Lol



I think I may have caused a bit of confusion in that reply.
Forgive me, I will try to clarify.
-poorman AR will work, sure. But, the amount of waste generated will be immense. The cost in acid will be quite high, and the cost of waste treatment will be proportional to that cost factor also. 
-"But you said 1 gallon of acid dissolves 2 pounds of metal" -you say in turn.
--correct, but, using poor man AR the sodium nitrate needs to either be dissolved in watet first, or it needs to have a low molar acid solution that it is put into so it can readily dissolve, which in turn will quickly create your nitrosyl chloride (the workhorse of AR)

My third suggestion (the best, most practical, most economic solution!) Was to use it in you stockpot.

-"whats a stockpot?" -you say?
Well, when we dissolve (just for example) some old pentium pro cpus in AR, we remove the excess nitric acid, then chemically reduce the gold out of solution (precipitate the gold, colloquially) because of whatever reason not 100% of the gold will precipitate with your reducing agent. Also, if there are trace amounts of platinum group metals in that solution too, they need to be recovered. It doesnt make sense to chase after a few pennies of platinum with $50 in chemical reducing agents, so we need to have a clever way to reclaim them in a manner thats more frugal (shoutout to dave  ).

-"What way is that"- you ask?
Well, that way is the stockpot. It is where we put our acid solutions that have traces of values still in solution. In fact, any and every solution that has the potential to dissolve gold, I treat through a stockpot.

-"What is it?"
Well, to answer that, we need a little background on how metal ions in solution behave. For that, we only need to look at the reactivity series of metals. Some really smart guys a long time ago figured out how much electron potential each metal has, and placed them in an ordered scale. So, at the bottom of the list, we have our noble metals. They are quite unreactive, and really dont like being metal salts (being dissolved by an acid, a metal becomes that acid metallic ion, copper in nitric-copper nitrate, copper in HCl-copper chloride, copper in sulfuric-copper sulfate)
Above the noble metals we have mercury, silver, copper. This is important. 

-"why"
Well, its important because the metals higher in the list want to be a metal salt more so than the ones below them. So for instance, if we have gold dissolved in AR, we can place a piece of copper in there and the gold will displace the copper into solution, while the copper will reduce the gold back to metallic gold.

So, the long long short of it is.
The stockpot is the best way to go about it, because your bars will be dissolved by waste acid (That was already used to recover or refine gold), and the gold and other noble metals will be recovered for free basically. So, the next lots of PC scrap you get, dont melt them, separate and process them accordingly!

I could probably write another 15,000 words on the reactivity series, stock pot, and much much more. But, I think what will help you the most is directing you to a place where you can make these discoveries on your own. We learn much better when we fit the pieces of the puzzle together ourselves. So, I suggest going to the library section of the forum and finding CM Hokes "Refining precious metal waste" which is a free pdf book that has be generously posted by numerous members. In it, you will get the fundamental principles you need to understand the reactions and the lingo. It is written for everyday guys like you and me.

If paper is more your fancy, I quite like CW Ammens "Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals"
It lays out what a beginner needs to know, what he needs to have in his lab (as far as reagents and equipment, etc), goes over assaying and testing techniques. --Its solid, rock solid--

Theres tons of other literature I could suggest too, but, most important is this forum. It can teach you everything you need to know, you just have to know what to look for. Those books referenced will also help give you the wisdom to know what to look for. Also, take the guided tour, it is a bountiful cornucopia of information.



Too long, didnt read?
-dont use AR, use them to cement out your stockpot, read Hoke. 

Edit,to fix a letter


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## jonrms (Oct 25, 2017)

:x I love the way you told a brief story about " smart guys " hmm didn't he win a novel prize. No I did read it all but I don't think I processed it all. I will need to reread it and go from there.


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## jonrms (Nov 2, 2017)

're read it again. Still going over it s few more times. I am going and planning to use potassium Nitrate. Not sodium. 

I had a minor disagreement on if it's a acid or base. Done alot of checks and it's a neutral nitrate. 

So thank you again. I am not ready to do any chemical processing. I stopped smelting the pins and others into bars. 

And I am digesting alot. Setting up the lab and fume vents etc. 

Eye wash first aid station. Buckets of clean water and industrial baking soda at a ready. I have ALOT to do but I am just gathering informatiin


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