# Idea to Make Profit From Silver



## Jackhopper09 (Jul 22, 2011)

Hi everybody, I'm pretty new to gold refining and this website, but I do know the basics of gold and silver on the stock market. I wanted to ask you guys a question about an idea I got from browsing eBay last week. Just about anyone knows that the more silver you buy, the closer to spot value you will pay for it, and vice versa. So I was thinking about melting all of my silver (I have an oxy-acetylene rig, so melting will not be a problem) and turning it into shot and selling it by the gram on eBay. I've already tripled my money on investing and I figured this is an easy way to make some more profit. I want to know some of your thoughts on this, is it practical, and do you think I would make enough based on the effort it would take? I am going to use the method I saw on metalicmario's video on shooting.

Thanks

Jack


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## butcher (Jul 22, 2011)

what form is your silver in now? 
Example: if it was stamped sterling, or marked for content silver percentage, I would buy it, silver shot on ebay and your word (someone I do not Know) stating it was this or that , I would pass, how would I be able to tell if the shot was silver and what percentage? I would gamble on contact points first on the ebay seller after you.
just my 2 cents


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## Ian_B (Jul 22, 2011)

why make something that is marked and that anyone in the business knows exactly what it is without the need of an assay to something that no one besides you truly knows what it is and then the end buyer after that needs an assay on to prove to whoever he decides to sell it to eventually ?

I would never buy shot off of eBay because i I have no way of testing it myself before purchasing.


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## Jackhopper09 (Jul 22, 2011)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110694189500&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1268wt_1185


This guy has been mildly successful, so apparently some people are taking a gamble. I personally would never buy shot from eBay, or anywhere for that matter, because it isn't marked and I would have no use for it. I have four bars to answer your question. And I was wondering if either of you buy shot, and if you do, do you test it? Do you buy from a company or dealer and hope it is real, or what do you do? I would love a reply, just tell me what you think.


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## jimdoc (Jul 23, 2011)

I would guess that most people selling silver shot on Ebay buy it from a place like Apmex, Monarch or Kitco by the kilo and then sell it by the gram for a very large profit. I doubt that too many of them are refining it by themselves.

Jim


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## Jackhopper09 (Jul 23, 2011)

@Jim But does it make a difference how it was made or who made it? If my future buyers want to test it, then go ahead, I know it is genuine and so will they after they test it. I'll maybe include a picture or video of me testing, and even explaining where I got it from (not that anyone should believe what they see on eBay) and hopefully that will clear things up for a few people. I completely understand where all of y'all are coming from, so I have another idea. Should I turn my 45 ounces into 1 ounce bars and hand stamp them? I just see a big profit from turning the big bars into small bars (or shot), because as I explained in my first post, you will always pay more over spot compared to big bars, and there is a bigger market for small bars because a lot of people cannot afford a kilo of silver. Tell me what you think of the individual 1 ounce bar idea compared to shot.

Jack


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## Ian_B (Jul 23, 2011)

the only problem with you melting your larger bar into a smaller one again is that your stamp(s) aren't recognized. it would end up being like a Doré bar and it would again need to be assayed to prove purity to the % of purity that you say.


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## Jackhopper09 (Jul 23, 2011)

So when people make a bar and post pictures of it on here, what do they do with it?


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## nickvc (Jul 23, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> So when people make a bar and post pictures of it on here, what do they do with it?


 

Many sell them to refiners and some keep them ,some a combination of both depending on needs!


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## Jackhopper09 (Jul 23, 2011)

http://cgi.ebay.com/SILVER-1-TROY-OZ-LOAF-STYLE-INGOT-999-FINE-MADE-USA-/200630374850?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb68091c2#ht_7199wt_1185

Everyone check this guy out, and maybe some have already looked at or purchased some of his items. He makes his own 1 troy ounce bars (and many other things), hand-stamps them, and sells them for a leap above spot. This is exactly what I want to do, and the bars sold, so some people apparently don't consider or care about the assay. Tell me what you think.


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## nickvc (Jul 23, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/SILVER-1-TROY-OZ-LOAF-STYLE-INGOT-999-FINE-MADE-USA-/200630374850?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb68091c2#ht_7199wt_1185
> 
> Everyone check this guy out, and maybe some have already looked at or purchased some of his items. He makes his own 1 troy ounce bars (and many other things), hand-stamps them, and sells them for a leap above spot. This is exactly what I want to do, and the bars sold, so some people apparently don't consider or care about the assay. Tell me what you think.




Whoa Jack....this guy is selling for 20 bucks above spot but if you take the time and costs involved to make his bars he probably isn't going to be troubling the rich list anytime soon.
Chances are he's a member of the forum and for most of the membership it's a hobby that can make a few bucks, if you want to go large scale the investment to produce large quantities and to get them accepted by the market is beyond all but the already very very wealthy.
Go back and follow my advice on your post about anyone making a profit from refining and get the basics sorted first, I'm not trying to kill your enthusiasm but to temper it with my many years of been involved in this business, the first thing you need to understand is that all metals can go down as well as up and if the market falls I'm going to be watching to see who survives out of all those now refining at a profit,I'd bet a fair few will be gone quite quickly as the value of their margins get reduced...2% of gold fix at $1600 is $32 while 2% at $600 is $12 that's a big difference and with a falling market surprisingly quantities reduce also, this might never happen but I wouldn't stake everything on it.


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## glondor (Jul 23, 2011)

That ebayer makes some very nice bars. Price is high for sure tho. More of a collectors item than an investment unless you have a very long time horizon. Resale to a refiner would not be at a premium for sure. No real providence as nice looking as they are.


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## Jackhopper09 (Jul 23, 2011)

OK, now that I have some new information, I have one more question for all of you. Should I keep my bars as they are or should I melt them down and turn them into individual bars and shot? I really see a good profit from doing so.


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## Harold_V (Jul 24, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> OK, now that I have some new information, I have one more question for all of you. Should I keep my bars as they are or should I melt them down and turn them into individual bars and shot? I really see a good profit from doing so.


Here's something to think about. Becoming recognized as a refiner of quality is very important if you hope to be successful. If you have bars from a recognized source, you have something that can be traded or sold as represented. Once you melt, unless you have ready buyers, you may find you have to sell your material as scrap, taking a greater loss. 

My suggestion is to melt only if you have buyers. To melt just to melt isn't the smartest thing you can do. A good example of this idea is US junk silver coins. So long as you have them, even well worn, they are accepted as being 90% silver. Melt them to a common mass and you now must provide certification of sorts in order to market the silver at a fair price. To the buyer, it may or may not be 90% silver, and he may not have the means to make that determination. 

Harold


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## Ian_B (Jul 24, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> OK, now that I have some new information, I have one more question for all of you. Should I keep my bars as they are or should I melt them down and turn them into individual bars and shot? I really see a good profit from doing so.



Refer to my 2 posts in this thread


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## Jackhopper09 (Jul 24, 2011)

Ian, so did lazersteve assay his latest bar that he sold?


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## jimdoc (Jul 24, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> Ian, so did lazersteve assay his latest bar that he sold?



I would guess that LazerSteve has a list of buyers that already have faith in his results.
An experienced buyer can also tell 24K gold from just looking at it. Silver I think would be
tougher to do that with.

Jim


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## nickvc (Jul 24, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> Ian, so did lazersteve assay his latest bar that he sold?




Jack he had no need to assay his bar it was 999 at a guess and it will have gone to a refiner who knows that Steves bar was good and an xrf reading will have probably been enough to confirm it.
The problem for the US members is the cost of assays hence why so many produce 995+ buttons and bars, here in the UK assays are around $15-$20 dollars and can be done same day.
The point is the end buyer can verify easily the quality by the look feel of his bar and if needs be use a $15000+ xrf gun, the general public can't and that's the problem you will encounter selling to them, we here on the forum deal with other refiners usually.


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## Ian_B (Jul 24, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> OK, now that I have some new information, I have one more question for all of you. Should I keep my bars as they are or should I melt them down and turn them into individual bars and shot? I really see a good profit from doing so.





Jackhopper09 said:


> Ian, so did lazersteve assay his latest bar that he sold?


Jack did you ask the same question in your first post in this thread?


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## element47 (Jul 24, 2011)

> Just about anyone knows that the more silver you buy, the closer to spot value you will pay for it, and vice versa.



Not necessarily true, until you are buying tens of kilos of silver. The premium over spot is more dependent upon form chosen. You will be able to buy a COMEX-acceptable bar (~~1000 oz) for much closer to spot than you will 10 Englehard or JM bars. Always. You will be able to buy a bag of junk silver generally taken as 715 oz for less then 7 Englehard 100 oz bars and 15 rounds. You will always pay more for 100 Silver Eagles than a 100 oz Englehard or JM bar. 



> So I was thinking about melting all of my silver (I have an oxy-acetylene rig, so melting will not be a problem) and turning it into shot and selling it by the gram on eBay.



Not my idea of a good time. Depending upon what form your current silver is, you are taking it from a self-assaying form to a non-self assaying form, plus, the act of selling something on ebay represents the sacrifice of roughly 12% of the final sales price (INCLUDING, NOW, SHIPPING) so you will lose about 13% of your final sales price. Plus, you will be taking your silver from widely-transacted form (assuming you have rounds or small bars) into a much-smaller audience type form. 

As far as the guy you linked who pours his own 1 oz bars, anyone who buys those for $55 is a flaming idiot, when you can buy US silver eagles for $45 (with silver at $40.mid) without working up a sweat or 1 oz generic but brand name bars such as APMEX, Sunshine for $42. You can probably buy Englehard or JM 1 oz bars if you can find them for $43.50. 

If your business model fulfills via selling on ebay, there is literally no way you will generate a profit. Trust me on this, I have pondered it at great length, in every variation I can think of. Ebay fees are larger than anything you'll be able to generate on your own. DO NOT FORGET that for you to start with an Englehard bar you will be paying $1.50 over spot on 100 oz. I would check out some other auctions of silver bullion. See what the things go for. There are people who will "forget" that they have to pay shipping but there are not many of them. 

You cannot believe that there are not many, many people who have tried to make this work. Sure, you can sell the silver you bought at $35 profitably but you cannot replace it except by buying at market. 

There are utterly immutable frictions involved with handling metals. If you do not learn that today, you will learn it the hard way, by paying it in your future transactions. A huge dealer like CNI or APMEX or even tulving makes probably less than a dollar an ounce UNLESS they are engaged in below-market buyback of silver products. If they make more than a dollar an ounce, it is because they are in effect market makers. I have no doubt they have people who hedge their inventory via silver futures, and that is a whole different area to master. 

There are people who buy $1000 bags of junk silver and sell it off $10 at a time. Or 3 pounds at a time. You *may* be able to make some money doing that, but I think you will find that those auctions go for a skosh less than spot, in consideration of the freight that the buyer has to pay. I would urge you to do the math as to whether you can make a profit doing that. Do not regard one ebay auction as your proof-of-concept. To do that you'll have to buy shipping envelopes at a buck each and drive to the post office because you will need signature confirmation. How many $100 silver deals have to go south to eat the results of many other deals you make $3 each on? 

By the way.........what did you plan to do to replace the silver you plan to sell when you run out of the 45 oz you have?


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## Jackhopper09 (Jul 24, 2011)

Why would I replace it, I bought back at $18 so I don't know why I have to replace it.


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## element47 (Jul 24, 2011)

I think you'll make more money buying at $18 and selling at $40 thinking you've "tripled your money" than anything I might suggest. I'm done.


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## nickvc (Jul 25, 2011)

Jackhopper09 said:


> Why would I replace it, I bought back at $18 so I don't know why I have to replace it.



Errrm if you intend to sell your silver and create an ongoing business it won't grow, you hopefully will sell it all so new silver will be needed to carry on in your venture. Don't expect to be able to triple your money before you start on your next batch or I feel you may well be disappointed!


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