# Large scale electronics refiners - how?



## enragedcow (Aug 18, 2008)

I'm curious if anyone knows how large scale refineries process electronics scrap.

My best guess, is that it starts with incineration and milling, but beyond that, I have no idea. I suspect many use cyanide leaching, or similar.

Anyone happen to know how they do it?


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 18, 2008)

Every medium to large refiner that I know of uses the following cycle.

Incinerate everything
Ball mill
Screen to separate ash (pulp) from the metallics
Melt the metallics, cast into bars, and sample by drilling (usually)
Blend the pulps and thief sample.
Ship bars and pulps to a primary copper smelter, usually in Europe

Cyanide stripping might be used for certain items that are not incinerated.


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## enragedcow (Aug 18, 2008)

goldsilverpro said:


> Every medium to large refiner that I know of uses the following cycle.
> 
> Incinerate everything
> Ball mill
> ...



I've actually seen you post that before, thanks! Just to be clear, they aren't really "refining" anything, they are merely concentrating the metals, then sending them off to someone else to do the refining? I suspect they pick copper smelters, as the vast majority of the metals they have would be copper, yes?

In that process, you end up with mixed metallic bars - but they could essentially be processed in house too, couldn't they? 

Ultimately, I'm wondering how, in an industrial setting, one could take PCBs and output the metals. Ideally, separated metals


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 18, 2008)

> Just to be clear, they aren't really "refining" anything, they are merely concentrating the metals, then sending them off to someone else to do the refining? I suspect they pick copper smelters, as the vast majority of the metals they have would be copper, yes?


Absolutely correct in all points.



> In that process, you end up with mixed metallic bars - but they could essentially be processed in house too, couldn't they?


That is much more easily said than done. Have you considered how many metals are involved, how complex the chemistry would be, the pollution control equipment required, and how much wastes would be generated? It's also much, much cheaper to do it this way. The refiners aren't stupid. They have tried everything possible, over the years, and have concluded that the way they're doing it is the absolute best.



> Ultimately, I'm wondering how, in an industrial setting, one could take PCBs and output the metals. Ideally, separated metals


Total "pie in the sky." You're dreaming.


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## enragedcow (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks, I appreciate the no-nonsense answers!

I'm curious though - the metals must be separated somehow, by someone. The bars go to a copper smelter - who uses the copper, but they must be removing the others somehow.

Take, for example, a company like this: http://www.specialtymetals.com/

They pay out on the PMs present, so they must get back that value somehow. Are the copper smelters just paying them for them?


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 18, 2008)

> They (Speciality Metals) pay out on the PMs present, so they must get back that value somehow. Are the copper smelters just paying them for them?


Maybe, depending on how complex it would be. They may just assay them, pay you on assay, and put them into the copper they're shipping.



> I'm curious though - the metals must be separated somehow, by someone. The bars go to a copper smelter - who uses the copper, but they must be removing the others somehow.


A primary copper smelter's business is to process many millions of pounds of copper ore. The ore they deal comes from all over the world. It contains the variety of metals in circuit boards plus a lot more. In their regular flow of material, they can handle anything that you can throw at them. They prepare your material and then sample and assay it. Then, they put the material in with everything else. Everything comes out in the wash. The material they get from refiners is a pittance compared with the ore they run.

A reason that the electronic materials are so compatible is that the resulting bars are always copper based, no matter what they started with. Most all refiners use gas furnaces. Iron and nickel are commonly in electronics scrap, but they won't melt directly in a gas furnace. To melt them, they add scrap copper to lower the melting point. Therefore, all the bars end us copper based - perfect for a copper smelter.

The smelters even pay the refiner for about 65% of the contained copper. Some things draw a penalty, however. If the nickel content is over 5%, a penalty is accrued. 

The smelters pay a very high percentage for the precious metals - more than anyone else could pay. However, it takes 3 months for the smelter to settle. You can get advances, but you must pay interest on them.


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## enragedcow (Aug 18, 2008)

goldsilverpro said:


> > They (Speciality Metals) pay out on the PMs present, so they must get back that value somehow. Are the copper smelters just paying them for them?
> 
> 
> Maybe, depending on how complex it would be. They may just assay them, pay you on assay, and put them into the copper they're shipping.
> ...



Okay cool, that makes sense. Essentially, it comes down to more of a question of economies of scale than anything. It's much easier/cheaper to let someone handle it, who is already well equipped to do so, rather than having to put in all those same systems for such small quantities of materials to process.

Part of me almost wonders if, as is likely, the resultant metal mix is mostly copper, if you use a cell to remove all the copper, and end up with a much smaller pile of metals - if at that point it makes any sense to even try basic acid processing. I'm guessing no, or others would be doing just that - but it'd be interesting to try.


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## skippy (Aug 19, 2008)

Mr. Enraged cow

Here's a thread with interesting comments by Goldsilverpro and Lou on the very topic you mention, the parting of PMs from crude copper alloys. Maybe there's some new thoughts on this matter since this thread?

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1124&start=15


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## scrapman1077 (Aug 28, 2008)

I worked for a scrap yard in New Jersey, we shipped 20k + lbs of boards off to a place in New York (5-6 times a year) , the partner would sit there for three days while the boards were shoveled into a rocking furnace. They added borax and copper to the furnace and pored copper dor'e bars which they would give a small bar back to the customer for them to have an assay on, then they did their own assay and paid based on that. I could not get any more info from my boss as he was very paranoid. Took a long time to get all this out of him. Hope this helps


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 28, 2008)

I've sat there for many different 3 day periods myself. They'll get you if you're not sharp. They have after hour meetings on how to get you. I've attended quite a few of these meetings when I was on the other side of the counter. All they have to do is sneak a little extra copper into your melt. That, of course, lowers the gold content. It's very expensive on the surface, but, if you have a lot of weight, you should hire a pro company like Ledoux to watch your stuff being run. They know every trick in the book. I would wager $1000 that they got your boss, especially if he decided to rep the stuff himself, in order to save money and not have to pay a pro. And, the cockier you are, the more they want to gouge you.

The only reason for an electronics refiner to give you even close to what is promised to you is if he wants to suck you in to send him more material. He has a license to steal.


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## Lou (Aug 28, 2008)

As usual, GSP told it like it is. 

In my mindset, it's almost cost prohibitive to have someone from Ledoux (or other reputable firm) go ump it. It's easy to spend $1000 on an assay with them, their other services go up. In the electronics business, it all depends on quantity. I'd say it's out of reach for the small guy not based on difficulty (anyone who has any business chasing these metals ought to be able to make a smelting furnace and electrolysis setup) but rather based on the leviathan of regulations keeping you from doing it. Refining and smelting are both heavily regulated by the EPA. Believe me, I know it now all too well  


My impression of those gentlemen at Ledoux is that they're fine chemists with a hell of a lot of experience. I agree with GSP, they probably know every trick in the book and they're reputation is based on making sure that you're not getting bent over.


Lou


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 29, 2008)

We used to send a lot of our electronics scrap, in tonnage quantities, to ASARCO in East Helena, MT. Ledoux had a full time employee located at this facility. ASARCO even provided him with an office. We always used Ledoux to rep our stuff. I also stayed with the material and followed the stuff around. I noticed that 20 EPA Superfund sites are ASARCO facilities, including the one at East Helena.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASARCO


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