# Some little problems on Memory Ram Yields



## skullsbox01 (Feb 11, 2014)

Hi People,
i have processed 2kg of ram memories, i have cut the fingers and i have obtained 175 grams. 
The fingers have been processed for first step in solution with 50% HNO3 and 50% H2O.
After this process i have filtered the gold, and i have processed it in AR.
After dissolution, i have used SMB to drop down the gold.
The yield of this process for 2Kg of memory Ram have been only 0,37 grams.
I have read on this forum that the yield of memory Ram is around 0,5 grams for kilo, but in my case the yield is 0,18grams for kilo.

Where is my error?

(in the pictures there are the materials that i have worked and the gold that i have obtained).

Thanks


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 11, 2014)

Two thoughts come to mind.

First, the fingers are not what most would consider closely cut. There is a lot of extra green circuit board in those 175 grams of fingers. So your recovery from the fingers is probably about right.

Second, have you processed the chips from the RAM? Many of those memory chips will have gold bonding wires embedded in the package. There are several ways of processing them, all of which are discussed here on the forum.

Dave


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## solar_plasma (Feb 11, 2014)

Have you used far more than 2-3 ml nitric for your AR?


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 11, 2014)

Hi Dave, the weight that i consider for the yield is the total weight of the memories Ram, so the yield of 0,5 grams for Kilo is calculated on the total weight. The gold in the black cip, is around 3% of the total yield, than is not considerable for this test.

Hi Solar, i have used much nitric acid, because gold was in the filter and than i have processed also the filter, but after the dissolution process i have used the Urea to neutralizing nitric acid. 

Thanks to all. 8)


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## niteliteone (Feb 11, 2014)

I don't know how to explain to someone that their is MORE gold in those chips than on the fingers processed as was already mentioned and "Ignored" :shock: 
or worse. reduced to pettiness :roll: 
But I guess the OP knows more than the people he is asking for help :lol:


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## solar_plasma (Feb 11, 2014)

Nevertheless there should be 0,5g/kg gold in the plating. I guess you have lost some gold in the process, could be caused by the filter technique or still in solution.

Urea isn't recommended in this forum anymore. Most would use CuCl2 leach instead of nitric in the first step. I guess no one would use AR for the second step, but HCl/chlorox. Ofcourse your method works, but it is full of snares and more difficult than it must be, which easily results in suboptimal yields.


...btw why should gold foils stay in the filters? All in all that whole thing doesn't sound as if you have good skills and proper methods, learn from the forum and review your methods, is my advice.


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## niteliteone (Feb 11, 2014)

If the H2O used was Not distilled or RODI it more than likely contained something that took some gold into solution in the first base metal removal step. Not sure if it can happen with nitric, but something to think of.

I have watched HCl and "my" water dissolve gold and I live in the country with my own water well. Then again my water also dissolves brass and copper water fittings. Slowly over a few years they just split and spray water.


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 12, 2014)

Niteliteone, i don't belives that the gold is more in the IC Chips than fingers, because the ram yield is around 600/700 grams for tonns, and the fingers yield, removed from one tonn of ram memories, is around 500/600 grams. The water that i have used is distilled water.

Solar, i have used nitric acid in the first step because it is very fast, in two hours i have removed all gold from the fingers. After filtering, the gold was all in the filter and i have processed it for avoiding losses.

Thanks to all


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## solar_plasma (Feb 12, 2014)

TSOP44...54: 0,1% gold
SOJ44: 0,046% gold
(Source: Testing black chips and SMD packages on their raw gold content by R. Eugster)

In practice you will find about 0,5/kg of ram only in the chips. I understand it is all new to you. If refining would be like your city, you haven't even gone outside your house. At this point everything you think is a news, is an old hat, discussed and proved in depth in this forum. Read the forum for some weeks and we can talk. Those yields do match to my own practice and to all experiences of other's I read on the forum, so this test can be taken as validated.

It is a bit harder to those who already know a little, than to those, who come here as a blank paper. Just like me in the beginning, you will first have to realize, how much you don't know and how much knowledge you will find here. Welcome to this ingenious forum!


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## niteliteone (Feb 12, 2014)

Well you clearly didn't get what you were supposed to have. Your numbers, not mine :roll: 
We have covered practically every place you could have loss with out realizing it. 
So what else is wrong or what have you not told :?: 
Did you blow some of the gold powder away when you melted it :?: 

Something to think about with the numbers you are using;
I went back and looked at your picture above and noticed your ram showing is single sided and looks newer than most of what I have ran, (Mostly EDO) which did contain more gold in the chips than the fingers.
So if what you are processing is not the same as the numbers you are using, that can also account for the low recovery


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## solar_plasma (Feb 12, 2014)

Did you incinerate the filters properly to white ash before you processed them?


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 12, 2014)

Solar, i have read the forum and the average yield that i think of ram fingers is compatible with the average that i have read on the forum.

This is a link http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4919 , there is your post where you say that, you have received 0,2g of foils from 12 pieces of ram.

The average weight of the ram memories is around 18 grams, so 12 pieces x 18 grams = 216 grams, and 0,2 grams are 0,09%, .

Thanks to all


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## solar_plasma (Feb 12, 2014)

> you have received 0,2g of foils from 12 pieces of ram.



yap, but I have to add, foils are not refined gold, there may be impurities of small bits of green solder mask and the foils themselves do not need to be 24 karat. Further it was weighed on a O,1g-weight, so it will not be 0,2000g but +/-0,05g. The RAM I used was only DDR2 of good quality, so it also might be an artifact.

Normally I get about 0,5g/kg from mixed ram (only the plating), so it should not wonder, that some ram's yield 1g of foils (inculding impurities) from 1kg ram boards.

according to my other statements: I think in a year you will know, what I mean. I at least can just shake my had about my own ignorance one year ago


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## nickvc (Feb 12, 2014)

The one thing to remember is that processing small amounts rarely gets a good return compared to doing big quantities when done correctly. Small amounts left on the filter paper, spills, foils stuck to beakers etc... In large volumes a loss of 0.1 grams is negligible with 0.2 - 0.5 it's massive percentage wise.


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## solar_plasma (Feb 12, 2014)

nickvc said:


> The one thing to remember is that processing small amounts rarely gets a good return compared to doing big quantities when done correctly. Small amounts left on the filter paper, spills, foils stuck to beakers etc... In large volumes a loss of 0.1 grams is negligible with 0.2 - 0.5 it's massive percentage wise.




exactly! This is what I meant with filter technique and proper incineration, just by those you could have a loss of 0,1g or more, which would make a significant difference.


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks to all, the important thing is that the average yield for ram is around 0,5 g/kg if we consider only the plated finger.
I will try another process to refine the gold finger. I will tell you the yield of the new process.
Obviously, i will consider that a small loss in a small batch is a considerable percentage.


Thanks for the moment 8)


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## nickvc (Feb 12, 2014)

Please note while I said loss in reality if you have removed all the gold from the fingers and you haven't thrown anything away it is recoverable at a later date, good house keeping in refining is important to minimise losses.


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 12, 2014)

thanks for the tips... the gold will be somewhere  but where?
I proceed for a new process, i'm sure that will be well.

:lol:


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## solar_plasma (Feb 12, 2014)

Before you start your next batch, you can post detailed what you are going to do, then we can give you useful hints or corrections or confirm, that you have understood every important little detail right.


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 12, 2014)

i have just started a new process on 180g of ram fingers coming from 2kg of ram, in HCl and some small addition of HNO3 at the temperature of 75°.

In this mode i avoid more steps, the gold is dissolved in the first step. After dissolution, the solution will filtered and after the gold will be drop downed with SMB. The estimated yield is 1gram, then i use 0,7 grams of SMB

I know that this mode can't be the best mode, but i try it now, and after, if the yield is not the best, i will try another method.


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## solar_plasma (Feb 12, 2014)

oh...no... that is exactly, why I said....whatever..stop it...read...learn....communicate before doing


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## bmgold2 (Feb 12, 2014)

Try this link.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=19766


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 12, 2014)

it's too late.
this is a picture of this moment.


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## gold4mike (Feb 12, 2014)

Straight to AR would be my LAST choice for edge fingers but at least you'll gain some more experience :roll:


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## Geo (Feb 12, 2014)

test, test, test and test again. never make a move without testing to make sure you know where your gold is. when you dissolve gold, test. when you filter the solution, test. when you add a chemical, test. when the drop is complete, test. test your washes. test your rinses. test everything. how will you know theres gold in solution? because you saw it dissolve? the forum is full of topics titled "where is my gold". people have followed a process to the end only to find that they tossed their gold with the wash water. if you are worried about the drops of solution wasted on testing, why are you even trying to refine in the first place. each test is a confirmation, its either there or its not. plus, you keep the tested solution and add it to your stock pot.

by the way, the visible gold on ram sticks is roughly 1/3 of the gold available. count the legs on one chip. each leg represents one gold bonding wire.

i have always said, its ok to ask what someone else's yield is but the best way to know what YOU can expect is to get your own yield data. the process i use from start to finish will never match what your process is because of variables. different chemicals, different equipment, different process times and even the difference in weather can effect yield data.


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## bmgold2 (Feb 12, 2014)

I'll give it a shot but keep in mind that I have not gotten any solid gold yet from all my attempts so _*maybe*_ someone else will correct me if I'm wrong.

First, test your solution with stannous chloride to make sure you actually dissolved your gold. If you did, you still have a lot of copper and probably other contaminants mixed in.

Next, I would put a piece of copper in the solution to cement the gold back out of the solution and then filter out anything that precipitates out. Check the solution again to make sure all the gold has left the solution.

Now, re-refine the precipitated powder to clean it again and get rid of any more copper or other non-PM's in it. You probably have to incinerate (heat to glowing but not melt) the powder to get rid of any left over nitrates that could redissolve the gold while trying to clean the base metals out. I'd try HCl or AP to dissolve the base metals.

Once that is done, wash the precipitates with distilled water (maybe hot water) to remove as much base metals as possible then redissolve the gold with AR or acid/bleach and  Edited to add: you might want to add a few drops of sulfuric acid to drop any lead out then filter before precipitating the gold back out. --- Test a few drops of the solution with some salt water or HCl in case there was any silver included then precipitate the gold back out with SMB or whatever precipitant you use.

From what I understand (still not a lot), you should try to get rid of the base metals *before* you dissolve your gold but it's too late for that with this batch.

Good luck and remember, this is just my own thoughts and they could be wrong. Either study the processes yourself or wait to see if anyone else corrects me before going much further. Don't throw anything out until you are sure it doesn't contain any values. Study about the wastes to find out safe ways to dispose of them. Don't dump them down the toilet or on the ground.


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## bswartzwelder (Feb 12, 2014)

You say you have read the forum, but nowhere in your post did you mention using stannous chloride to test your solutions. Perhaps you didn't precipitate all the gold and have some left in your solutions. Did you save them? I don't remember who said it but "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" may be true here.

If you have read the forum, you would have seen numerous postings saying the best way to process fingers is with AP. Then process the gold with AR , poorman's AR or acid/Chlorox. Deviating from the tried and true methods may end up costing you some gold. 

You didn't have a large batch to start out with, so any losses or inaccurate calculations could explain the lower than average yield.


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 12, 2014)

Geo, the best thing to do if we want know something, is do it. But if i process 2kg of memories ram, and my yield is most low of the normal the only way is ask.
About the general Ram yield, i don't believe that the most of gold is present in the IC chip. 

now i'm adding 0,7g of SMB in the solution (agitated with magnetic stirrer), tomorrow i will know the yield. (in italy are the 18.19) 8) 

I will update you.

thanks to all


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## solar_plasma (Feb 12, 2014)

> Geo, the best thing to do if we want know something, is do it. But if i process 2kg of memories ram, and my yield is most low of the normal the only way is ask.
> About the general Ram yield, i don't believe that the most of gold is present in the IC chip.



If you know it better, then why you ask?! Do you only count on those answers, that tell you, what you want to hear?



> now i'm adding 0,7g of SMB in the solution, tomorrow i will know the yield.



No, you willl not. You will only see, how much black powder you will get after a day from a dirty AR that even might have excess oxidizer and that little gold in relation to the amount of liquid, that it will take long time to settle. Do you at least have some stannous and gold standard solution at hand? It should make me wonder.



> I will update you.



Update yourself by reading HOKE and the forum and keep your chemicals safely until you know what you are doing / where your gold is.

This is at least my last post to you until I can see, that you are willing to learn.


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## bmgold2 (Feb 12, 2014)

skullsbox01 said:


> Geo, the best thing to do if we want know something, is do it. But if i process 2kg of memories ram, and my yield is most low of the normal the only way is ask. Asking only helps if you listen to the answer
> About the general Ram yield, i don't believe that the most of gold is present in the IC chip.  I doubt people here would lie about that
> 
> now i'm adding 0,7g of SMB in the solution (agitated with magnetic stirrer), tomorrow i will know the yield. (in italy are the 18.19) 8)
> ...



I've tried many short cuts to speed up the process to seeing that first bead of gold. As I said, I still don't have any gold to show for my work. Thinking that I could get away without shooting for "PURE GOLD" I have not been able to get anything that even looks like gold. Copper oxidises easily when you try to melt it.

Some of us have to learn the hard way. I'm including myself in that comment. Good luck!


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## gold4mike (Feb 12, 2014)

skullsbox01 said:


> In this mode i avoid more steps, the gold is dissolved in the first step. After dissolution, the solution will filtered and after the gold will be drop downed with SMB. The estimated yield is 1gram, then i use 0,7 grams of SMB



If you anticipate 1 gram of gold you should use slightly MORE than 1 gram of SMB, not less. Especially since you'll be precipitating from a very dirty solution. I would use 1.3 grams of SMB. If you have not used up all the nitric you might need substantially more SMB to overcome it.


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## niteliteone (Feb 12, 2014)

I wonder how much solder was dissolved into that AR solution with the gold fingers :shock: 
That could be a good (bad) explanation of where the gold went :roll:


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## g_axelsson (Feb 12, 2014)

Circuit boards in AR... big mistake! I can already tell you where some of your gold is. It's sitting inside the fiber boards, cemented onto the internal copper traces.

I did the mistake of processing two fiber processors together with a couple of ceramic ones and the yield was really low. The copper in the internal layers of the fiber CPU:s cemented the gold back from the AR solution and it was only by luck I found it, cemented gold doesn't look like shiny gold.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=17697

The CPU:s sits on a tray, reminding me of my mistake and waiting for incineration and reprocessing in the summer.

Göran


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## Daddie (Feb 12, 2014)

Ok i got questions..

So what does Muriatic + Bleach do ?
Also the diff with Muriatic and Peroxide mix?

im still a a bit confused with some mixtures as to what they necessary do to either pins or the boards.

lso, its hard to find nitric and sulfuric acid in Cebu. im still looking for good substitutes.

Any help pls?? thanks


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## Geo (Feb 12, 2014)

Daddie said:


> Ok i got questions..
> 
> So what does Muriatic + Bleach do ?
> Also the diff with Muriatic and Peroxide mix?
> ...




Look here http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=6873#6873


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## skullsbox01 (Feb 13, 2014)

Hi guys,
thanks for all your posts, this morning i have melted the gold powder, and the result is in the picture. 

The yield, in this batch is of 0,45 grams, that compared to the previous batch (0,37 grams), is +21%.
I will try AP method in the next batch.

Thanks to all


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## niteliteone (Feb 13, 2014)

Much better this time  
A few more batches and you should be getting the max possible 8) 

Just be sure you do everything possible to be sure tin (from solder and plated traces) is never dissolved in the same solution as the gold, as it hides the gold from recovery and if you don't know where it is, you will lose it like most do :shock:


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## solar_plasma (Apr 26, 2014)

Any update?


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## kjavanb123 (Apr 28, 2021)

skullsbox01 said:


> Hi People,
> i have processed 2kg of ram memories, i have cut the fingers and i have obtained 175 grams.
> The fingers have been processed for first step in solution with 50% HNO3 and 50% H2O.
> After this process i have filtered the gold, and i have processed it in AR.
> ...



Hi 

I like to add my finding on processing gold finger ram sticks. I ran 6.5kg of all gold plated ram sticks in hcl and got 1.7kg bga chips, 76g SMDs and 4.8kg bare boards with gold plating. 

From that 4.8kg depopulated ram sticks which were dipped in lye solution to remove or neturlize the hcl from them, then were treated with nitric, collected the tiny flakes of gold and some meta stannic mud, I moved it to a beaker and did AR, filtered the solution, and dropped gold using zinc powder. 

I cupeled that powder and got 0.18g bead from 4.8kg depopulated ram sticks, which meant the yield from gold plating of 1kg ram sticks was 0.03g per kg, so I am curios about the numbers in this post 0.5g per kg from the fingers alone? 

Here are few pictures of my process described above.


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## Martijn (Apr 29, 2021)

Hi, why cement on zinc after AR and not on copper? Leave those base metals in solution! Saves on lead in the cupel.
Tin is below zinc in the reactivity series. Why use zinc? 

*GLOVES??!??!??* You like taking risks with your lifespan and health?

You replied to a post from 2014, in which is described a process of leaching RAM fingers in HNO3 and H2O2? Which process is that? 
AP misunderstood perhaps? Try not to copy questionable and old info. 
It seems to me you continued with this 'less conventional' approach. 

Close cut RAM fingers should not have any tin, so going to AP instead of the HCL / NaOh dip / HNO3 before AR would make more sense imo? Unless you have free acids available and like waste treatment a lot...

Referring to the yields, I think the OP dissolved most of his gold in the initial leach. 
And threw out the baby with the bathwater.

How well did you wash your cemented powder before cupelling? Did you incinerate before cupelling? Was there any HCL left in there? Did your gold go up in smoke? Not sure...

Did you blow the fine cemented powder from underneath the sheet of lead in your furnace? Possibly.

First get you process steps right, then worry about yields. 

To minimize future losses, experiment on small amounts, fine tune, get experience, and then size up the batches.

Martijn.


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## mls26cwru (Apr 29, 2021)

I had a thought... did you test the leech after the nitric only step? You mentioned that you "dipped the boards in NaOH"... im wondering if maybe some HCl was trapped in the board fibers/through holes and may have made it past the "neutralization" step. It wouldn't take much at all to dissolve 0.3g.

Just a thought.


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## kjavanb123 (Apr 29, 2021)

mls26cwru said:


> I had a thought... did you test the leech after the nitric only step? You mentioned that you "dipped the boards in NaOH"... im wondering if maybe some HCl was trapped in the board fibers/through holes and may have made it past the "neutralization" step. It wouldn't take much at all to dissolve 0.3g.
> 
> Just a thought.



Yes nitric solution was checked few times with stannous and turned out negative for gold.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 30, 2021)

Martijn said:


> You replied to a post from 2014, in which is described a process of leaching RAM fingers in HNO3 and H2O2? Which process is that?
> AP misunderstood perhaps? Try not to copy questionable and old info.



Without reading the other thread, adding H2O2 to nitric acid oxidizes the nitric oxide gases and turns it back into nitric acid. It decreases the red NOx cloud and makes your nitric acid last longer.

Göran


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## swaminair (Aug 3, 2022)

Nuance What is AP term in chemistry. AR refers to Aqua Regia. can any one help me sort out?


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 3, 2022)

For terms you don't recognize, see A Glossary of Common Terms.

Dave


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Aug 4, 2022)

Acid Peroxide.


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