# Fingers in AP,,,,,phase 1



## vegaswinner (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi to the forum...and a big thanks to lasersteve for the tutorial vids.

So fingers in AP phase 1...Reaction seems to be going well, has been running about 7 hours now. If you can see in the last picture the fingers are almost stripped already. They have had good agitation every 5 minutes in the first 30 minutes then once every 45 minutes thereafter. Just 1 question, is it safe to put a lid or cover on the reaction?, i don't want to have to precipitate my cat later :lol: 

Here's my kit, all purchased online or from local shops:::::If your in the UK and want to know where I got the stuff let me know, I was able to purchase all the chemicals without question...

Hydrochloric acid 30% W/W
Hydrogen peroxide 3% Food/aseptic grade
200 trimmed ram stick fingers
Buckets and pyrex measuring jug
safety gloves (nitrile gauntlets)
Chemistry experience none except a D in GCSE 20 yrs ago, lasersteve's video's, this forum...

Will be posting more pictures and giving progress reports over the coming days but ill probably let the reaction sit tonight then get on to phase 2 tomorrow morning


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## patnor1011 (Aug 18, 2011)

Can you let me know if place where you got HCl can be found in NI? I will check myself just need to know name of company or shop where you got that and possibly picture of label. Thanks.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 18, 2011)

Maybe, just says shipping to UK so probably need to email them.


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## glorycloud (Aug 18, 2011)

You brought it inside just to take the pictures, right?
You and kitty don't need to be huffing those fumes indoors! :shock: 

MEEEEOOOOWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!


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## patnor1011 (Aug 18, 2011)

Thank you.


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## shaftsinkerawc (Aug 19, 2011)

Funny thing about cats and AP. I had a bucket outside and away from the house and the cat was inquisitive and took a drink before I could get to her. Gave her some milk and didn't have any problems with her. My AP was several weeks old.


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## Geo (Aug 19, 2011)

curiousity killed the.. well you know. my cat follows me every where when im outside but now if it sees me pick up a bucket it runs and hides for the rest of the day.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

glorycloud said:


> You brought it inside just to take the pictures, right?
> You and kitty don't need to be huffing those fumes indoors! :shock:
> 
> MEEEEOOOOWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!



:lol: No I only started the reaction indoors, well right by the front door actually then got it outside sharpish....

Today I have hit a problem. Filtered and cleaned all my foils as in the AP tutorial, added the gold foils to a clean bowl for dissolving, added a half cup HCL to the foils then the sodium hyperchlorite but no reaction, i did get a nice yellow solution. What have I done wrong as it looks like none of the foils dissolved even though my solution went yellow??

In lazersteve's tutorial the HCL is 31.45%, the HCL I obtained is 30%. Could it be because of this? or is it possible that the bleach is not was it says on the tub, watered down etc?


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## Geo (Aug 19, 2011)

the yellow solution is Auric Chloride, add more chlorine till all foils have dissolved. you have to keep adding as necessary to dissolve them all. if you dont get a fizzing reaction when you add chlorine then add a little more hcl acid. by the way, are you just pouring the chemicals over the foils in the filter? place the foils into the chemicals and it will work more efficiently.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 19, 2011)

Some heat will help with the reaction as well.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

Geo said:


> the yellow solution is Auric Chloride, add more chlorine till all foils have dissolved. you have to keep adding as necessary to dissolve them all. if you dont get a fizzing reaction when you add chlorine then add a little more hcl acid. by the way, are you just pouring the chemicals over the foils in the filter? place the foils into the chemicals and it will work more efficiently.



No I put the foils in a dish, added half a cup hcl then the chlorine, I added a touch more chlorine to see if it would start the reaction. I never added more HCL so ill give that a try now. I filtered it off anyway just incase I had some Auric Chloride.

Would it still be ok to use the Auric Chloride I just made to add the extra HCL or should I just start a new reaction and precipitate both later? Thanks


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Some heat will help with the reaction as well.



Added an outside burner to my shopping list  Thanks


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## seawolf (Aug 19, 2011)

Go easy on the heat as it will drive off the chlorine.
Mark


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

I put the foils and the auric chloride that didn't react back in the dish and tried adding more HCL but still no reaction. I will give the foils another rinse and try again, maybe I added to much chlorine in the first place. The heat will have to wait for now as I have no way of heating it up outside at the moment.


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## Geo (Aug 19, 2011)

this is odd if there is NO reaction. chlorine will react to hcl with no other reagent there. in other words it should fizz if you just pour the two together with no foils in it. remember that the acid is not dissolving the gold but rather the chlorine gas produced in the solution by the hcl acid dissolving sodium hyperchlorite. if there is no fizzing then your not producing the gas that dissolves the gold.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

Very strange....I let the reaction bowl sit for about 20 minutes and when I checked I could clearly see some foils still left but also much more solder mask than before so it would seem the chlorine is working. I think ill order some proper sodium hydrochlorite from a chemical supplier as i'm convinced this supermarket stuff is watered down or something. Unless someone can point me to a proven brand, chlorox is not yet available in the UK. Ill also see if I can get the 31.45% HCL instead of the 30% i'm using.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 19, 2011)

The answer is in his question. Same thing happened to me. Your bleach is probably old and weathered. I went to shop and got jeyes parozone strongest bleach - it even says that it kills flu virus so my gold is flu-free :lol: 
http://www.packagingeurope.com/NewsDetails.aspx?nNewsID=38402
blue bottle.

It works perfectly. I do that with same amount of foils in container 30% size of yours one. Also I do it in container with lid it helps me to stir-swirl foils in solution without breathing chlorine fumes and every time when there is small fumes build up I just open lid and vent it out. Do not use heat in dissolving foils as this will drive off chlorine and you will end up adding more bleach and more chlorine. Use heat only when all gold is dissolved to drive chlorine off prior to reducing gold to powder with smb.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 19, 2011)

I also use lidl thick bleach, I believe they carry the same brand in uk.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 19, 2011)

vegaswinner said:


> I put the foils and the auric chloride that didn't react back in the dish and tried adding more HCL but still no reaction. I will give the foils another rinse and try again, maybe I added to much chlorine in the first place. The heat will have to wait for now as I have no way of heating it up outside at the moment.



If you have a 5 gal plastic bucket you can put your container in the bucket andthen pour some hot water in the bucket and it will warm your solution up. Don't bother with washing your foils just continue to dissolve what you have.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

Parazone it is, I know they have it at my local shop....Thanks


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> vegaswinner said:
> 
> 
> > I put the foils and the auric chloride that didn't react back in the dish and tried adding more HCL but still no reaction. I will give the foils another rinse and try again, maybe I added to much chlorine in the first place. The heat will have to wait for now as I have no way of heating it up outside at the moment.
> ...



Ah yes, good idea I can do that....Will try the better bleach first though because its not really cold outside so I expect the reaction should have worked without the heat.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 19, 2011)

vegaswinner said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > vegaswinner said:
> ...



It dosen't take a lot of heat, just a little to bring temp to around 140F will be fine.


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## martyn111 (Aug 19, 2011)

I use the Tesco own brand thin bleach, about 30p for 2 litres, works great with B&Q brick and patio cleaner (Hcl) about 6.50 for 5 litres


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## vegaswinner (Aug 19, 2011)

martyn111 said:


> I use the Tesco own brand thin bleach, about 30p for 2 litres, works great with B&Q brick and patio cleaner (Hcl) about 6.50 for 5 litres



Ill be making a trip to b&q tomorrow thats for sure, I paid over £40 for 5l of HCL delivered....

I got the parazone in the blue bottle, bit unsure though as its perfumed?


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## Geo (Aug 19, 2011)

perfumed shouldn't matter. bleach that i use is 6% sodium hypochlorite and that's pretty basic, too i use muriatic acid which is 32% hydrochloric acid sold as brick cleaning acid at most hardware stores in the U.S.
the bleach is about $0.75 per gallon and the muriatic acid is $6.85 per gallon. this amount should process several ounces of gold foils with hcl left over. use as small amount of hcl as possible,just enough to cover the foils, and add chlorine slowly 10-15ml at a time. look after each addition to see if the foils are digested. just don't stick your nose in it as this process creates chlorine gas which is deadly poison.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 20, 2011)

Geo said:


> perfumed shouldn't matter. bleach that i use is 6% sodium hypochlorite and that's pretty basic, too i use muriatic acid which is 32% hydrochloric acid sold as brick cleaning acid at most hardware stores in the U.S.
> the bleach is about $0.75 per gallon and the muriatic acid is $6.85 per gallon. this amount should process several ounces of gold foils with hcl left over. use as small amount of hcl as possible,just enough to cover the foils, and add chlorine slowly 10-15ml at a time. look after each addition to see if the foils are digested. just don't stick your nose in it as this process creates chlorine gas which is deadly poison.



I have another batch of fingers in AP and I chucked in the left over foils from my first attempt so ill have another crack at dissolving them tomorrow. Just waiting on the SMB and I can see if any gold was dissolved in my original solution.

Thanks for all the info on chemicals, surprising the high street disguises for this stuff.


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## dtectr (Aug 20, 2011)

vegaswinner said:


> I have another batch of fingers in AP and I chucked in the left over foils from my first attempt so ill have another crack at dissolving them tomorrow. Just waiting on the SMB and I can see if any gold was dissolved in my original solution.
> 
> Thanks for all the info on chemicals, surprising the high street disguises for this stuff.


 My friend, use stannous chloride to test for values, not SMB. You probably read the last chapter of a mystery novel, too, huh?  :lol: Really defeats the purpose.

SMB is a precipitant - only use it when you *know* have a considerable quantity of dissolved gold. You *know* because the solution tested positive for gold with stannous chloride.

just my dos centavos.


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## Geo (Aug 20, 2011)

no need to wait. go to the hardware store in the electronics section in buy the smallest package of lead-free solder, this is high tin content, put about 4 inches of solder wire in a small glass container preferably with a dropper but not required then add a few ml of hcl acid and let it sit for 15 minutes. you have just made stannous chloride. take a cotton swab and dip it in your solution till wet then put one drop of the stannous chloride on the wet end. if it stays white after a few minutes there's no gold in it, if it turns purple there's gold present. do a search in the search box for "stannous false positive".


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## vegaswinner (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok... Went the hardware store, got the solder, lead free... Dropped a small piece in the HCL but it didn't dissolve although a reaction was taking place. I added a bit of heat using the hot water method mentioned and left it for a further 30 mins, the solder still hadn't dissolved but I decided to try the solution anyway and see what happens. Dipped a swab into what i think to be Auric chloride then put a drop of home made stannous on and got an immediate colour change, a very deep almost blacky purple.

Today I diluted the auric chloride and added the SMB, no immediate reaction. After about 2 minutes and a little stirring the solution completely cleared but nothing appeared to drop. I tested it again at this point and again got an immediate colour change to a deep blacky purple. Left the solution on the window sill, checked it after 15 mins or so I noticed it had changed into what looks like muddy water, gave it a stir but no precipitate. Should I add more SMB at this point or let it sit over night?

I estimate at the most there could be 1 or 2 grams of gold in solution so I added 3 grams of SMB to ensure i used enough.. Did I use too much here?


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## vegaswinner (Aug 22, 2011)

dtectr said:


> vegaswinner said:
> 
> 
> > I have another batch of fingers in AP and I chucked in the left over foils from my first attempt so ill have another crack at dissolving them tomorrow. Just waiting on the SMB and I can see if any gold was dissolved in my original solution.
> ...



I didn't realise at the time I could make stannous from solder. I was just going to add the SMB to see if I got a precipitate not to test it as in with stannous. As for the novel well,,,,I've never even made the foreword let alone the last chapter lol


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## Geo (Aug 22, 2011)

put your container in a ice bath to see if it will precipitate better.


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## nickvc (Aug 23, 2011)

Just as a side note you should be able to get your bleach/ chlorox from your chemical suppliers, ask them for dairy grade sodium hypochlorite, it's about as strong a solution you can around get, around 15%, open it outside use it sparingly..... keep it away from the cat!


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## vegaswinner (Aug 23, 2011)

I think we may have gold powder in the solutions. After being left a day to settle both solutions look clear, test negative with stannous for gold and I have what looks like a brown powder settled at the bottom of the dishes. Just need to siphon these off and collect up the powder ready for melting. I've attached a picture so you can see the final precipitate. I noticed in the video that gold precipitates as a brown powder but Lasersteve also got gold particles on the spatula, is it normal not to actually see gold particles in solution every time or would you expect to see some gold particles when you add the SMB?


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## Geo (Aug 23, 2011)

you will need to dissolve and refine again if you are worried about purity. it will go faster the second time. the reason gold precipitated on the spatula in the video is he was working with pure Auric Chloride with no impurities and there was alot more gold in the solution than you had. it happens to my plastic spatula to the point i have to place my spatula in the vessel when i dissolve with hcl+cl just to reclaim the gold off my spatula.when you put SMB in a solution that is acidic the SMB dissolves and releases sulfur dioxide gas. this gas causes the gold atoms to attract to one another forming larger pieces until they become heavy enough to settle to the bottom. the more you agitate the solution after you add the SMB the faster the gold will coalesce and settle due to more atoms moving against each other.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 23, 2011)

Geo said:


> you will need to dissolve and refine again if you are worried about purity. it will go faster the second time. the reason gold precipitated on the spatula in the video is he was working with pure Auric Chloride with no impurities and there was alot more gold in the solution than you had. it happens to my plastic spatula to the point i have to place my spatula in the vessel when i dissolve with hcl+cl just to reclaim the gold off my spatula.when you put SMB in a solution that is acidic the SMB dissolves and releases sulfur dioxide gas. this gas causes the gold atoms to attract to one another forming larger pieces until they become heavy enough to settle to the bottom. the more you agitate the solution after you add the SMB the faster the gold will coalesce and settle due to more atoms moving against each other.



I will re refine with HCL+CL when I have a few more grams of powder then move on to my first button. Shouldn't be too long, I already have 2 dishes to siphon, an AP reaction going on and should have another 150 or so pci cards to trim tomorrow


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