# Purple Rinse Water



## Paul73 (Jun 23, 2022)

I am a newbie to this process and I am not sure what happened. I have a few ram fingers that were recovered using the AP process. I filtered the liquid to recover the fingers and noticed that my distilled water that I used to rinse was turning a light purple color. Everything I can find in the forum conversations and dong a word search in the Hokes book related to the color change mentioned using Stannous Chloride to test for gold and getting the purple color. My containers and final filters (cotton ball filters) were clean to the best of my knowledge, the initial finger recovery was done using paper towels as the filter. The recovered fingers were stored in a plastic prescription bottle that I had cleaned prior to using it. Nothing in this part of the process had been exposed to any Stannous Chloride. I am at a loss to explain it and cannot seem to find any explanation for it. I know there is some copper contamination because I started to do the AR process to dissolve the gold and what was initially a golden colored solution turned a light shade of green. I realize this is just the rinse water I am describing but I am wondering what effect it may cause as I get further into the refining and melting portion of the process. Sorry for being so long winded but I am trying to describe what is happening as best as I can. Anybody else ever run into this?


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## 4metals (Jun 23, 2022)

Was there any solder on the fingers you dissolved? If there was it’s possible you formed some tin chloride which reacted with the gold to form a colloid of elemental gold supported on tin dioxide to give a purple precipitate or coloration.

Colloidal gold is difficult to filter and often stays suspended in the solution imparting a purple color.


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## butcher (Jun 23, 2022)

Tin (solder) if involved in the leaching process of the gold foils, tin will dissolve into the cupric chloride leach solution (what you are referring to as AP solution), making stannous chloride as one of the metal chloride salts dissolved in this solution of mainly copper chlorides.

If you use the excess oxidizer in the cupric chloride leach (AP), such as too much H2O2 (generating chlorine strong enough to put some gold into the solution) some of the gold can dissolve, and most of the time the undissolved copper will displace this gold (cement it back out of the solution) as black powder, but if tin from solder is dissolved in this solution with gold ions (a dissolved chloride salt of gold in a mixture of the dissolved chloride salt of tin, the gold will be reduced to metal but will be locked up in suspension in this solution as a colloidal gold (purple of Cassius) that the gold atoms will not combine or settle without breaking the colloid.


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## orvi (Jun 24, 2022)

This happened also to me. Twice. Once, I was processing full plated boards (cut down to smaller pieces), second time fingers. 
In the first batch, there were several holes in the PCBs, where the tin/remains of the leg didn´t fully dissolved. When I removed the boards and start rinsing them, rinse water slowly get violet tinge. 
Next time I was processing fingers, where all of the metallics dissolved into the AR. But this time, violet colour persisted in washings even if all metals have passed to the solution.

One thing which we should be aware of is, that cuttings from boards and *fiberglass PCBs in general tend to adsorb appreciable ammount of gold* into them. When the boards were removed from the juice, *and rinsed, Au3+ slowly started to leak out from the surface* of them, getting into the contact with few tin/legs remains and violet colour was created.

Second, there are some *resins, espetially fenol/formaldehyde types, that have functional groups capable of reducing gold*. This was the second case with fingers - they were capable of making gold colloids by themselves.

Important to add here, *AR isn´t very good way how to process fingers*. Nitric or AP are much better approaches. In my cases, there was significant ammount of tin covered board that was obviously plated before. Nitric will produce ultrafine gold dust, and unfortunately I cannot run AP in my place (various reasons).


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## Paul73 (Jun 24, 2022)

Thanks all for your replies. After reading them, I believe I did use too much oxidizer, these fingers were recovered using white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide and being a newbie to this process I became impatient and apparently used to much peroxide attempting to speed up the process. There were a few small pieces of circuit boards in the AP soak. I placed them in because they were showing what I thought were small spots of gold. I did a stannous test on the rinse liquid and did not see any apparent test results but my understanding of the test now that I give it some thought would not show results from suspended particles as it will only test for the gold to be in solution and on top of that a slight indication would be hard to see due to the purple initial color of the water. The Stannous test on the liquid I saved was a very deep purple color which is a good result. I am going to let the rinse water set for a few days and see what if anything settles. Then depending on the results decide that to do with the rinse waters. I was attempting the AR process to increase the gold purity. This was my second attempt at recovery. The first attempt resulted in about .5g of gold that tested at about 12 karat after melting it (I am estimating this result).
Any thoughts on a good way to process the rinse waters to enhance the recovery of whatever is suspended in it?


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## butcher (Jun 24, 2022)

Gold particles in the purple solution will never settle on their own, each tiny cluster of atoms of gold becomes electrically charged (which stops them from coming into contact with each other to settle with gravity in solution, and like floating magnets these clusters repel each other, and so are held in suspension and in motion by their own force of electrical charge.

The colloid will not break on its own, your gold can be locked up in solution until the chemical reaction to break the colloid is forced upon it.

Strong acid like sulfuric acid and heat can break the electrical charge on the gold particles or the colloid so that the gold atoms can come together in contact with each other and grow to larger clusters (as powder) and settle out of the solution, another option to break the colloid is to use electrolysis.


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## dpgold (Jun 25, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> Thanks all for your replies. After reading them, I believe I did use too much oxidizer, these fingers were recovered using white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide and being a newbie to this process I became impatient and apparently used to much peroxide attempting to speed up the process. There were a few small pieces of circuit boards in the AP soak. I placed them in because they were showing what I thought were small spots of gold. I did a stannous test on the rinse liquid and did not see any apparent test results but my understanding of the test now that I give it some thought would not show results from suspended particles as it will only test for the gold to be in solution and on top of that a slight indication would be hard to see due to the purple initial color of the water. The Stannous test on the liquid I saved was a very deep purple color which is a good result. I am going to let the rinse water set for a few days and see what if anything settles. Then depending on the results decide that to do with the rinse waters. I was attempting the AR process to increase the gold purity. This was my second attempt at recovery. The first attempt resulted in about .5g of gold that tested at about 12 karat after melting it (I am estimating this result).
> Any thoughts on a good way to process the rinse waters to enhance the recovery of whatever is suspended in it?


It happen to me too, I did AP on a batch of mylar ribbon contacts and I could see extremely fine gold sparkling in the solution. I have filtered and I got.....0.5 yield on a little over 2kg of material. I kept the AP for reuse and stockpot and I might have save more from it already. Initially I htought the gold could be either in the solution or in the precipitate but it seems like this is a third state of gold this is why it is identified as this. If you look up colloidal gold you will find lots of interesting stuff. If the solution is somewhat clear you can see if there is colloidal gold by putting a laser through a beaker and watching from above. If it is colloidal gold you could see the laser path as a line.


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## Paul73 (Jun 26, 2022)

dpgold said:


> It happen to me too, I did AP on a batch of mylar ribbon contacts and I could see extremely fine gold sparkling in the solution. I have filtered and I got.....0.5 yield on a little over 2kg of material. I kept the AP for reuse and stockpot and I might have save more from it already. Initially I htought the gold could be either in the solution or in the precipitate but it seems like this is a third state of gold this is why it is identified as this. If you look up colloidal gold you will find lots of interesting stuff. If the solution is somewhat clear you can see if there is colloidal gold by putting a laser through a beaker and watching from above. If it is colloidal gold you could see the laser path as a line.


I removed the filters that were in this liquid and tried to rinse the color out of them. They remained purple, so I took them out of the funnel and squeezed the remaining liquid out of them. I then decided to incinerate them to see what took place and as I incinerated I could see tiny gold beads forming. Unfortunately my melt dish was very dirty so they are going to be hard to recover. I think I will try cleaning the melt dish and try something (not sure what yet) to see if I can separate them from whatever comes out of the dish.
I could see tiny particles floating in the liquid. I tried a laser pointer as you described in your reply and it did show a laser light path very plainly visible. I decided to evaporate some of the liquid just to see what would happen. I let it on a coffee warmer overnight and evaporated about 1/2 the liquid level. The purple color remained, and there is a layer of cloudy purple sediment at the bottom that is not entirely settled as it is still very fluid and seems to be floating slightly above the bottom of the vessel. Very interesting stuff. 
I am reading the Hokes book about the melting of precious metals and learning a lot as I go. But being the impatient person I am I am experimenting as I go and following up with the reading. Bad way to go I know but that is me, stubborn, bullheaded, and impatient.


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## Paul73 (Jun 26, 2022)

butcher said:


> Gold particles in the purple solution will never settle on their own, each tiny cluster of atoms of gold becomes electrically charged (which stops them from coming into contact with each other to settle with gravity in solution, and like floating magnets these clusters repel each other, and so are held in suspension and in motion by their own force of electrical charge.
> 
> The colloid will not break on its own, your gold can be locked up in solution until the chemical reaction to break the colloid is forced upon it.
> 
> Strong acid like sulfuric acid and heat can break the electrical charge on the gold particles or the colloid so that the gold atoms can come together in contact with each other and grow to larger clusters (as powder) and settle out of the solution, another option to break the colloid is to use electrolysis.


I do not have an electrolysis setup yet. I am in the process of building one, but being on a fixed income it is slow going. I do have some sulfuric acid and I am thinking about adding some to the rinse water just to see what happens. The liquid I have is a very small amount and I am wondering what would be the best way to do the addition. At this time I am thinking of adding it a drop at a time and giving some time between each addition to see what the reaction is. Currently I have evaporated about 1/2 the liquid level on low heat and am noticing a purple scum floating slightly above the bottom of the jar. I am also thinking I may just split the liquid up and evaporate 1//2 the liquid completely to see what would remain and trying the sulfuric acid on the other half. Will post the results after the experiment.


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## Shark (Jun 26, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> I am reading the Hokes book about the melting of precious metals and learning a lot as I go. But being the impatient person I am I am experimenting as I go and following up with the reading. Bad way to go I know but that is me, stubborn, bullheaded, and impatient.



As a suggestion, try reading first, then experiment. This way you can see how the things you read work.


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## Martijn (Jun 27, 2022)

How many RAM fingers are we talking here? 

White Vinegar + H2O2 is not AP. Did you use iodized salt for that experiment to create weak HCl? 



Paul73 said:


> Currently I have evaporated about 1/2 the liquid level on low heat and am noticing a purple scum floating slightly above the bottom of the jar. I am also thinking I may just split the liquid up and evaporate 1//2 the liquid completely to see what would remain and trying the sulfuric acid on the other half. Will post the results after the experiment.


So it does settle, just needs some time and heat. 
Separate an evaporate, great idea, give it a try. Add a dash of H2SO4, you might be done earlier than you expect. 

Knowing you're stubborn is half the work done, The other epiphany half is written here: please read it completely!! 
Try to feel the severity of the near death experiences, very unexpected effects of fumes and reactions these members try to warn us for. 









Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?


Many new members are frustrated when they first join this forum. They may have experience on other internet forums where it is common for members to ask simple questions and get quick answers. They join this forum in hopes of getting similar responses to their questions about refining. These...




goldrefiningforum.com





This is chemistry! Not play dough. 
Be safe, stay alive. 

Martijn.


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## Paul73 (Jun 27, 2022)

butcher said:


> Gold particles in the purple solution will never settle on their own, each tiny cluster of atoms of gold becomes electrically charged (which stops them from coming into contact with each other to settle with gravity in solution, and like floating magnets these clusters repel each other, and so are held in suspension and in motion by their own force of electrical charge.
> 
> The colloid will not break on its own, your gold can be locked up in solution until the chemical reaction to break the colloid is forced upon it.
> 
> Strong acid like sulfuric acid and heat can break the electrical charge on the gold particles or the colloid so that the gold atoms can come together in contact with each other and grow to larger clusters (as powder) and settle out of the solution, another option to break the colloid is to use electrolysis.


Something odd is going on then because I have started to see small pieces of gold in the solution and left alone the water became clear and the purple has settled to the bottom of the jar. This happened like overnight and no additional chemicals have been added. The evaporation process was speeded up by heat, (not a lot of heat did not boil) the heat was supplied by an electrical coffee warmer like you would place next to your armchair to keep your coffee warm. So there are very small gold pieces in this solution and still the purple color. Still reading Hokes book and searching the forum for the two handbooks mentioned in a post. Found a link posted in a signature line but when I searched it the forum came back with an error message that it could not be found!


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## Paul73 (Jun 27, 2022)

Martijn said:


> How many RAM fingers are we talking here?
> 
> White Vinegar + H2O2 is not AP. Did you use iodized salt for that experiment to create weak HCl?
> 
> ...


Yes I did use salt to make a weak HCL. However it was not iodized salt it was a sea salt as that is what was recommended for the process. I am staying as safe as I can. All processes are being done outside in a covered deck I built several years ago to accommodate our hot tub, it only has two walls and the floor has large open cracks where the green lumber that was used has shrunk. I have read through the thread you mentioned and understand and agree with it but stull questions remain and will be asked from time to time. The learning experience goes on and on forever. I definitely will be trying a dash (drops at a time) of H2SO4.


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## Alondro (Jun 27, 2022)

orvi said:


> This happened also to me. Twice. Once, I was processing full plated boards (cut down to smaller pieces), second time fingers.
> In the first batch, there were several holes in the PCBs, where the tin/remains of the leg didn´t fully dissolved. When I removed the boards and start rinsing them, rinse water slowly get violet tinge.
> Next time I was processing fingers, where all of the metallics dissolved into the AR. But this time, violet colour persisted in washings even if all metals have passed to the solution.
> 
> ...


I take care of that by soaking my trimmings in pure HCl for a solid week, shaking and stirring daily, alternating heating and cooling repeatedly.

It takes longer, but ALL the base metals are utterly gone by the time it's done. Then, after the gold dissolve, I boil the solids left over in distilled water to remove all hidden dissolved gold chloride in the board bits.

Thanks to Sreetips for showing such detailed wash methods to make sure all the values are recovered!


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## Paul73 (Jun 27, 2022)

Hello Alondro, how did you dissolve your gold? My understanding is that it will not dissolve in straight HCL. I did not know about boiling the leftover solids, I will have to look into that. I just started recovering and am learning a lot. I printed out a copy of Hokes book and am studying it now as I go. I know, and have been reminded many times to read it first but with what is going on I have a limited time to get done what I want to do before travelling south again and will not be able to take my hobby with me.


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## Hartbar (Jun 27, 2022)

Hokes book is incredible. I’ve read it a few times now. 
I just don’t see how it applies to the modern E/ waste stuff people are processing to be honest.
If you read it straight up, it’s a reference for jewelers in the 1950’s to 70’s. Most of the info still relevant today for jewelers.


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## Paul73 (Jun 27, 2022)

I am getting some information that kind of relates so far as far as equipment and some setup stuff but I am only up to chapter VI so far.


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## Paul73 (Jun 27, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> Yes I did use salt to make a weak HCL. However it was not iodized salt it was a sea salt as that is what was recommended for the process. I am staying as safe as I can. All processes are being done outside in a covered deck I built several years ago to accommodate our hot tub, it only has two walls and the floor has large open cracks where the green lumber that was used has shrunk. I have read through the thread you mentioned and understand and agree with it but stull questions remain and will be asked from time to time. The learning experience goes on and on forever. I definitely will be trying a dash (drops at a time) of H2SO4.


Interesting that I have split the wash waters up and have two samples that both weigh the same. I have not evaporated yet but am noticing small flecks of gold in both samples. The purple has settled to the bottom but when swirled around is still purple. I am seeing about the same amount of gold specs in each sample. Have added H2SO4 to one of them and do not see an appreciable change. Both samples weigh 45g and counting the drops I have added about 10 drops also my droppers (pipettes) got here today so in addition to the 10 drops I have added 2ml of H2SO4 to the one I am treating. It has been several hours and still no appreciable change noticed. We will see in the morning if anything has developed.


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## dpgold (Jun 28, 2022)

Hartbar said:


> Hokes book is incredible. I’ve read it a few times now.
> I just don’t see how it applies to the modern E/ waste stuff people are processing to be honest.
> If you read it straight up, it’s a reference for jewelers in the 1950’s to 70’s. Most of the info still relevant today for jewelers.


the basic reactions and reactants are the mostly the same in the book, I am not sure it covers everything and for a beginner some things should be explained further. Also the books calls for acquaintance tests. I think the book, being old, does not cover the safety issues very well, it does not explain the safety issues very well, maybe mentions them. There are dangerous gases and chemical reactions which transform some plain substance into a lethal stuff which a beginner would never fully understand and know how to handle. Like there are off gases which are dangerous and then some salts which are off the charts dangerous. The unsuspecting person at home, in the beginning, might try some of these in the kitchen thinking they would wash things up and everything is fine. Then there are many misleading youtube videos where everything seem possible.


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## butcher (Jun 28, 2022)

If you are seeing a violet salt settle it is not colloidal gold, it is more likely a diluted solution with silver chloride that has been reduced by exposure to light.

Colloids are too small to be able to see them physically without a special microscope as the clusters of gold atoms are too small, we may detect them by the reflection of light through a sloution giving color to the solution (not a salt), it can also be detected by how the is light reflected or scattered through the solutionTyndall effect.

silver chloride will form a milky white in solution, which will make a fluffy white salt that will seem to float around, as the other salts are normally heavier or denser as they settle faster than the silver chloride will.
If the solution is dilute or low of free acid the silver chloride if exposed to light will begin to turn violet to blackish on the surface of the salt as the surface layer of the silver chloride is being reduced to silver metal.


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## Jimbriese (Jun 28, 2022)

I don’t have enough experience to help with this issue but I would suggest getting a couple pics of the solution both after it is settled a has the separate layers and after stirring as that might help some of the more experienced members see what you have going on.


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## Martijn (Jun 28, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> I have read through the thread you mentioned and understand and agree with it but stull questions remain and will be asked from time to time. The learning experience goes on and on forever. I definitely will be trying a dash (drops at a time) of H2SO4.


Questions, answers and helping (new, inexperienced, or old) members is what this forum is all about. Also guiding new members into the process of understanding the matter and learning from the vast amount of info available here, which can be quite overwhelming. 
The H2SO4 helps drop tiny gold particles when the solution is hot.

So study and research and before you try to experiment or copy a process, suggest it here first to check your plan or prevent strange reactions to happen. 
We will also give you an indication if we feel you're ready to perform your suggested steps before you endanger yourself and the ones around you. 

Martijn.


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## Geo (Jun 28, 2022)

This may sound weird but does the solution have a sweet smell? Does the rinse water smell sweet? You may have to warm it to smell it. If it has a sweet smell, it will be lead. Lead makes a purple color when lead chloride is diluted with water if there is tin involved.


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## Shark (Jun 28, 2022)

Geo said:


> This may sound weird but does the solution have a sweet smell? Does the rinse water smell sweet? You may have to warm it to smell it. If it has a sweet smell, it will be lead. Lead makes a purple color when lead chloride is diluted with water if there is tin involved.


 The Romans used lead to give wine a sweet taste. We know better these days.


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## 4metals (Jun 28, 2022)

Shark said:


> The Romans used lead to give wine a sweet taste. We know better these days.


So was it the wine or the plumbing that lead (no pun intended) to the fall of Rome?


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## Shark (Jun 28, 2022)

I am not sure but some suspect that Nero suffered from lead poisoning based on the “Nero fiddled while Rome burned”saying.


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## dpgold (Jun 28, 2022)

butcher said:


> If you are seeing a violet salt settle it is not colloidal gold, it is more likely a diluted solution with silver chloride that has been reduced by exposure to light.
> 
> Colloids are too small to be able to see them physically without a special microscope as the clusters of gold atoms are too small, we may detect them by the reflection of light through a sloution giving color to the solution (not a salt), it can also be detected by how the is light reflected or scattered through the solutionTyndall effect.
> 
> ...


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## Paul73 (Jun 29, 2022)

I have read about the gasses and the fact that some of the chemical reactions can make results in which the material is actually explosive. That is the reasoning for me to do the chemical parts of the process outside, I do not have a fume hood so open air outside is much safer than performing some of the processes in an enclosed space. I do miss the availability of a sink with running water, but I keep a garden hose with a nozzle close by bot to wash stuff off and just in case an accident occurs and I get something on me.


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## Martijn (Jun 29, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> Yes I did use salt to make a weak HCL. However it was not iodized salt it was a sea salt as that is what was recommended for the process.


Recommended? Where? By who? Please do share.


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## Martijn (Jun 29, 2022)

@dpgold:
It was not only clean RAM. 



Paul73 said:


> There were a few small pieces of circuit boards in the AP soak.


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## Alondro (Jun 29, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> Hello Alondro, how did you dissolve your gold? My understanding is that it will not dissolve in straight HCL. I did not know about boiling the leftover solids, I will have to look into that. I just started recovering and am learning a lot. I printed out a copy of Hokes book and am studying it now as I go. I know, and have been reminded many times to read it first but with what is going on I have a limited time to get done what I want to do before travelling south again and will not be able to take my hobby with me.


The HCl, plus a little copper chloride to jump-start the reaction, will eat away all the base metal. It takes a week or two at room temperature, depending on how thick the base metal is. Warming it speeds the reaction, but I'm never in a hurry so I just let it do its thing in our boiler room, where it's very hot anyway, and gets ventilated heavily. If you don't have a ventilated boiler room, but have hot summer sun, you can save energy by sticking the beaker in a make-shift greenhouse. In summer sun, it'll hit about 150F or higher in any enclosed space with transparent glass/plastic covering and a dark-colored floor.

You'll be left with gold foils/fragments and a concentrated solution of copper/tin/nickel chloride (mostly copper). You pour that out (filter to catch the fine gold particles that get stirred up), wash once with a little clean HCl (adding water for the first wash will cause formation of insoluble tin oxychloride and precipitate copper (I) chloride which is rather insoluble in water), and then once or twice with hot distilled water to get rid of base metals still in solution on the foils. 

Then you add HCl again to the foils (and the washed filter with the gold particles), just enough to make a layer of liquid over the foils, and then add bleach a tablespoon-full at a time (or more if you have a LOT of foils, let's say if it feels like you might have an ounce or more), heat gently with swirling. If all the gold doesn't dissolve, add a little more bleach and stir some more (thin gold foils should dissolve within 15 mins if there is sufficient chlorine being generated in the HCl-bleach reaction). If they still haven't dissolved completely, add a bit more HCl and a little more bleach. 

Once dissolved, you should have a nice pale yellow-orange-ish to DEEP orange-colored gold chloride solution (depends on how concentrated it is). Simmer this slowly outside for a few hours, but don't let it boil, (in direct sunlight it works even faster) to drive off the excess chlorine. Then you can cool it down and drop the gold with SMB. The drop should work very well, since there's no chance of sneaky nitrate anywhere in the solution.

Thick gold, such as jewelry, doesn't dissolve well with this method. It's VERY slow and you have to keep playing with the solution all day to get it to completely dissolve. Thick gold requires either AR, or Sreetips method of alloying the gold with the right mass ratio of silver, then dissolving the silver and base metal contaminants with pure nitric or sulfuric acid.


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## Alondro (Jun 29, 2022)

Shark said:


> The Romans used lead to give wine a sweet taste. We know better these days.


Ha! I don't have to worry cuz I have no brain to poison!


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## Paul73 (Jun 30, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Recommended? Where? By who? Please do share.


 is one of the places that mentioned sea salt. Another place mentioned it because he did not want to add the iodine and anticaking agents to his vinegar mixture. So, I went and got some sea salt from Walmart. From the experimentation I have done since it seems to me that it is a fallacy because the method only gives you gold foils it does not dissolve the gold. But I suppose that if you are after other PM besides the gold it may influence the process. I am still reading Hoke and learning. Whatever you are doing, ***be careful*** I cannot stress that enough.


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 30, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> is one of the places that mentioned sea salt. Another place mentioned it because he did not want to add the iodine and anticaking agents to his vinegar mixture. So, I went and got some sea salt from Walmart. From the experimentation I have done since it seems to me that it is a fallacy because the method only gives you gold foils it does not dissolve the gold. But I suppose that if you are after other PM besides the gold it may influence the process. I am still reading Hoke and learning. Whatever you are doing, ***be careful*** I cannot stress that enough.



There are no other values in fingers than Gold.
AP is the process for that.
Any process using Vinegar will create almost the same toxic elements and then some, and working much slower than real HCl.


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## Martijn (Jun 30, 2022)

Maybe sreetips aka kadriver can post his conclusion on the vinegar process here on grf? Its a video of 7 years ago. 
Did you watch part 2 and 3? 

About the fallacy, there are recovery processes and refining processes. 

The first give concentrated, but still dirty gold foils or cons or black cemented pm's, the latter will refine your gold to high purity. 

If you use refining processes on raw e-waste, you will encounter lots of problems. Like losing your gold to internal copper traces in pcb's and components or creation of metastannic acid. 
Or silver chloride mixed in with pm powders. 

First separate. Then refine. Also reffered to as 'trash in, trash out'. 

Martijn.


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## Shark (Jun 30, 2022)

YouTube is generally used to create income. Ever wonder why so many uploaders never answer questions?


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## Paul73 (Jun 30, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Maybe sreetips aka kadriver can post his conclusion on the vinegar process here on grf? Its a video of 7 years ago.
> Did you watch part 2 and 3?
> 
> About the fallacy, there are recovery processes and refining processes.
> ...


Hello Martijn I have seen and watched a lot of Streetips videos as well as a lot of other videos. My first experience with recovery was using the weak HCL made by adding Sea salt to vinegar. I had lots of vinegar and all kinds of time and that is why I elected to try this process. I trimmed probably 20 memory sticks of fingers and also found gold circuitry in the printheads of an HP 2800CP wide printer (plotter) that I own. I no longer used the plotter so I decided to sacrifice the printheads to see what developed. My first refining was done using strictly the vinegar process for recovery with the fingers and print head circuitry. Interestingly enough the vinegar/sea salt solution softened up the print head circuitry mylar (sp) so that I could separated the layers of mylar to obtain just the gold circuitry. Once recovered, washed, several times and placed in a clean melt dish and melted, it resulted in about 1/2G gold bead that tested at between 9 and 14 K so I am guessing about 12 K. My reasoning is that no change on the test stone at 9K and the scratch disappeared at 14K. At this point in my experimentation I am still recovering gold using both the AP and the vinegar type recovery processes just to see what happens. I have made the observation that there is a lot less fumes using the vinegar but the time frame is a lot longer. I have started to do the AR process on the gold I am recovering at the present time. It is interesting that this process will dissolve a lot of gold. I plan on adding recovered gold to it until it will not dissolve any more gold then SMB drop it to see what happens. Still in the process of reading Hoke and experimenting. I have an interesting development of the recovering of gold plated pins that I have yet to figure out. I did not use electrolysis as I am still building this process to try) but I simply soaked them in acid (HCL) and hydrogen peroxide, (don't remember I may have added a little nitric to it) ending up with a black colored liquid that looked like it had mercury floating on top of the liquid. I let this sit for about 2 days and it did settle out to a black layer of sediment and clear liquid above it. I was able to decant the clear liquid cleanly. Interestingly enough the mercury looking stuff remained in the jar. After letting this sit for a couple of days, a layer developed on the bottom of the vessel I decanted the clear liquid into that looks like silver slivers, some of them (but not all) looking like leaf clusters that looks like almost radial clusters of 5 leaves. I am thinking silver chloride, but I way be wrong. I have lots of material to experiment with because I have been building, repairing, and messing around with computers since about 1990 and I do not throw things away. Sorry this is so long winded, but that is how I am. I will try to get my camera to focus well enough to get some photos of these slivers, If I am able to get a clear image I will add the photos to this post.


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## Martijn (Jun 30, 2022)

That's also a good way to get a feeling of how much premixed AR will dissolve. How much nitric went in there? 

Look on the forum for the different types of e-waste and how to treat them. 

Try not to experiment too much, you'll end up with a lot of waste or jars of solutions 'for later'. 

Stick to proven processes, start with small tests and suggest your plan here before you try it. 

Do you know how to treat your waste? 








Dealing with Waste


I have been roaming this site for a few weeks, and with Hoke's book on it's way (fyi Harold) and Steve's DVD's I should be ready to start recovering pm's here pretty soon. I do have concerns about how to correctly deal with wastes. I am looking for some insight into how you guys deal with this...




goldrefiningforum.com


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## Paul73 (Jun 30, 2022)

Martijn said:


> That's also a good way to get a feeling of how much premixed AR will dissolve. How much nitric went in there?
> 
> Look on the forum for the different types of e-waste and how to treat them.
> 
> ...


Mixture was 2:1 HCl to Nitric, HCL was 31.45% the Nitric was 69.8%. I know of several ways to treat the waste and after treating it will be dumped into a 1000 gallon concrete tank where it will be mixed with all our sink and shower waters and the flushed waste waters from the bathrooms. I am not ready to treat and dispose of it yet and so far I have less than 1 gallon of "waste" liquid I am trying to decide what to do with. As of yet, I do not consider it waste due to the color of it.


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## Paul73 (Jul 2, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> Hello Martijn I have seen and watched a lot of Streetips videos as well as a lot of other videos. My first experience with recovery was using the weak HCL made by adding Sea salt to vinegar. I had lots of vinegar and all kinds of time and that is why I elected to try this process. I trimmed probably 20 memory sticks of fingers and also found gold circuitry in the printheads of an HP 2800CP wide printer (plotter) that I own. I no longer used the plotter so I decided to sacrifice the printheads to see what developed. My first refining was done using strictly the vinegar process for recovery with the fingers and print head circuitry. Interestingly enough the vinegar/sea salt solution softened up the print head circuitry mylar (sp) so that I could separated the layers of mylar to obtain just the gold circuitry. Once recovered, washed, several times and placed in a clean melt dish and melted, it resulted in about 1/2G gold bead that tested at between 9 and 14 K so I am guessing about 12 K. My reasoning is that no change on the test stone at 9K and the scratch disappeared at 14K. At this point in my experimentation I am still recovering gold using both the AP and the vinegar type recovery processes just to see what happens. I have made the observation that there is a lot less fumes using the vinegar but the time frame is a lot longer. I have started to do the AR process on the gold I am recovering at the present time. It is interesting that this process will dissolve a lot of gold. I plan on adding recovered gold to it until it will not dissolve any more gold then SMB drop it to see what happens. Still in the process of reading Hoke and experimenting. I have an interesting development of the recovering of gold plated pins that I have yet to figure out. I did not use electrolysis as I am still building this process to try) but I simply soaked them in acid (HCL) and hydrogen peroxide, (don't remember I may have added a little nitric to it) ending up with a black colored liquid that looked like it had mercury floating on top of the liquid. I let this sit for about 2 days and it did settle out to a black layer of sediment and clear liquid above it. I was able to decant the clear liquid cleanly. Interestingly enough the mercury looking stuff remained in the jar. After letting this sit for a couple of days, a layer developed on the bottom of the vessel I decanted the clear liquid into that looks like silver slivers, some of them (but not all) looking like leaf clusters that looks like almost radial clusters of 5 leaves. I am thinking silver chloride, but I way be wrong. I have lots of material to experiment with because I have been building, repairing, and messing around with computers since about 1990 and I do not throw things away. Sorry this is so long winded, but that is how I am. I will try to get my camera to focus well enough to get some photos of these slivers, If I am able to get a clear image I will add the photos to this post.


Well, I have some pictures of the silver looking slivers I mentioned above. Someone (I do not remember who) mentioned that lead can form crystals that look like needles,, that may be what I am seeing. I will try to upload an image and hopefully someone will be able to determine what I have. I have not decanted or tried any type of recovery on them as of yet.


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## butcher (Jul 2, 2022)

lead chloride, if so, it will dissolve in hot water, and reform into a precipitate when the water is cooled.

Silver chloride is a more fluffy cloud-like, or I would call it similar to puffballs or white powdery precipitate, it would also be changing to dark color in ultraviolet light, silver chloride will not dissolve when the water is heated,


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## Paul73 (Jul 3, 2022)

butcher said:


> lead chloride, if so, it will dissolve in hot water, and reform into a precipitate when the water is cooled.
> 
> Silver chloride is a more fluffy cloud-like, or I would call it similar to puffballs or white powdery precipitate, it would also be changing to dark color in ultraviolet light, silver chloride will not dissolve when the water is heated,


As an experiment, I decanted this and placed these crystals in a smaller vessel. Not sure how hot the water needed to be but they did disappear with hot tap water (130 deg F). Interestingly they had started to disappear prior to adding the hot water to the vessel. This I do not begin to understand, as the vessel was clean and the liquid had not been altered except the volume was decreased. Then after observing the disappearance I placed an ice cube in the vessel and no visible precipitate formed.


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## Yggdrasil (Jul 3, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> As an experiment, I decanted this and placed these crystals in a smaller vessel. Not sure how hot the water needed to be but they did disappear with hot tap water (130 deg F). Interestingly they had started to disappear prior to adding the hot water to the vessel. This I do not begin to understand, as the vessel was clean and the liquid had not been altered except the volume was decreased. Then after observing the disappearance I placed an ice cube in the vessel and no visible precipitate formed.


Add a few drops of Sulfuric. If it is lead it will drop out as Lead sulfate.


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## Paul73 (Jul 3, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Add a few drops of Sulfuric. If it is lead it will drop out as Lead sulfate.


Too late for that I have discarded it. I did notice when washing the vessel there was a slight light blue cloud in the dish water when I first submerged the vessel.


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## Martijn (Jul 4, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> Too late for that I have discarded it. I did notice when washing the vessel there was a slight light blue cloud in the dish water when I first submerged the vessel.


Not discarded in that holding tank you mentioned earlier I hope? Dealing with Waste
There is a reason lead is not used much anymore, it creates toxic salts in time, you just dump them in nature? 

YOUR'E NOT CLEANING CHEMICAL BEAKERS IN THE DISH WATER SINK I HOPE???!!!!
cheers on your next cup of joe... mouth foaming and spasms may occur. 

May I suggest you stop and go study? 
That light blue cloud was copper salts, highly toxic for all aquatic life and most plants and animals. 
Can someone please go visit this gentleman and put a lock on his sewage tank? 

Your ignorance will poison your neighbors. Their family and friends might not be very pleased with that and come see who poisoned them. 
Pitchforks and burning torches are optional. 

Act safe, stay alive.


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## Paul73 (Jul 4, 2022)

I dump nothing in nature. The liquid was discarded in a vessel I am keeping just for liquids from my experimentation. I am keeping my experimentation on a very small scale and may well stop. I cannot seem to find anyplace local willing to accept the liquids generated by the experimentation. I will be doing some research when I travel south as there may be a means to dispose of the liquids in the area I will be travelling to.


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## Alondro (Jul 6, 2022)

Paul73 said:


> I dump nothing in nature. The liquid was discarded in a vessel I am keeping just for liquids from my experimentation. I am keeping my experimentation on a very small scale and may well stop. I cannot seem to find anyplace local willing to accept the liquids generated by the experimentation. I will be doing some research when I travel south as there may be a means to dispose of the liquids in the area I will be travelling to.


I have Pyrex containers that I can heat. Once the salts are at neutral pH, I heat gently until I vaporize the water away, then put the solid salts in a container. In summer, I take advantage of the natural heat to evaporate the water away inside a little greenhouse I'm not using during these months since it gets too hot for plants inside, but is perfect for evaporating water away. Chlorides never completely dry, as they're very hygroscopic. Nitrate salts are the best. With constant heating, they completely dehydrate, and many will decompose into nitrogen dioxide which floats away (heat them outside or with plenty of venting if doing this), and solid metal oxides.


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