# Exahust Catalyst recycling for PGE



## kjavanb123 (May 12, 2010)

Hi all,

Can it be done using the methods in cm hook book? 

Thanks
Kev


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## hphoa (May 13, 2010)

hi kjavanb123, if your talking about platinum group elements out of cars or trucks you probably could with a little tweaking OR a lot less work check out Lazersteves web site and buy his video on the subject.


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## kjavanb123 (May 15, 2010)

Hi,

Thanks for the tip, can't open the site though of Lazersteve. I will try it later. Yes I am looking to extract PGE from the catalyt part of cars. It's been done by the Japanese company of DOWA Recycling. I like to do it smaller-scale here.

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (May 15, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> Thanks for the tip, can't open the site though of Lazersteve. I will try it later.
> Kev



I just tested it and all is fine. Can you be more specific as to what problem you are experiencing?

Site requires you to accept cookies, active X scripting, and add site to trusted content via any third party internet security suites software on your pc (Black Ice, Zone Alarm, Norton Internet Security, etc.).

If using Fire fox you must have the IE Tab plugin installed (link on main site page: Download, Run, then select Tools--> IE Tab Options-->http://goldrecovery.us-->Add-->Ok) and install the FF Media Player add on (link on video site).

Lastly be sure your media player version is updated to the latest version.

Any other problems please post here.

Steve


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## kjavanb123 (May 15, 2010)

Hi Steve

Thanks, it worked.


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## kjavanb123 (May 23, 2010)

Hi Steve,

Just oredered a copy of Fundamental of Pt and Palladium off ur site. Is this DVD for recoverying PGE from the auto catalyst? Do you talk about extracting Rhodium as well?

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> Is this DVD for recoverying PGE from the auto catalyst?


Yes.



kjavanb123 said:


> Do you talk about extracting Rhodium as well?



The rhodium is recovered as a residue in the video, the processing of the Rh is not covered due to space limits of the DVD.

Steve


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## shyknee (May 23, 2010)

kjavanb123
you are going to love the DVD I have watched mine over and over .
Lazersteve how is your wrist heeling is it all better ?


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2010)

shyknee said:


> kjavanb123
> you are going to love the DVD I have watched mine over and over .
> Lazersteve how is your wrist heeling is it all better ?



I had a slight infection develop on the incision, but it's getting better now. I'm still off of work, but having only a hand and a half makes the time off not as enjoyable as a real vacation.

Thanks for asking!

I'm glad you like the DVD>

Steve


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## kjavanb123 (May 26, 2010)

Hi Steve,

I know a lot of brokers trade the auto catalyst in my area and ship them to a refining in Japan, so I assume from this, doing the refining in home would cut the all these costs in between. Any ideas, how much Pt or Palladium can be extracted from each auto catalyst? Sometimes i get curios is it worth?


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## lazersteve (May 26, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> I know a lot of brokers trade the auto catalyst in my area and ship them to a refining in Japan, so I assume from this, doing the refining in home would cut the all these costs in between. Any ideas, how much Pt or Palladium can be extracted from each auto catalyst? Sometimes i get curios is it worth?



It varies too much to give a hard number, but a cat in good shape, with all of the material intact has a ballpark average yield of 1-1.5 g per honey comb. I have been told this number can be as high as 7 grams per comb on some models of vehicles. 

I wouldn't bet the farm on these numbers, since the process used to extract, the skill of the refiner, the cat itself, and lots of other factors play a part in the yields.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Jun 10, 2010)

Steve's video on the platinum group arrived this morning, wow talk about easy to follow instructions that even I can follow, job well done Steve.

It's been said before and I'll say it again, anyone contemplating getting into cats should first preview this Platinum DVD, it gives you a total understanding of the process's involved. The DVD is well worth the money.

Best Regards
Gill AKA Gustavus


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## butcher (Jun 11, 2010)

I cannot wait for your progress reports, on the catalytic's, glad you got the dvd, I tried our scrap yard they told me it was against the law for them to sell me catalytics, guess the recyclers around here have a lobby group, passing laws in their favor?


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## Oz (Jun 11, 2010)

Against the law? I do hope you pursue this to find out just what law this is in Oregon. 

Gut instinct tells me your local yard is just lying to make you go away, but at the same time there are indeed lobby groups with money that “buy” protection from politicians so as to avoid a level playing field. 

If that happened here part of the reason I would wish to check it out would be that the next logical step would be to outlaw the possession and buying of catalytic's without government certification and approval. 

Please let us know if you find further information.


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## butcher (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks Oz, I will check more into it, as I would like to work with catalytics, they do have a problem here with people stealing them off cars, so I could see selling them would come with scrutinany, but buying used cats from a junkyard being illegal did seem off the wall, but you know how goverments can come up with laws that make no sense.


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## Oz (Jun 11, 2010)

Scrap yards have always been put in the position of trying to figure out if what was brought into their yard was stolen and subject to confiscation after they had paid for it.

So I understand completely that no yard wishes to buy stolen property, but that also implies that anything they are selling no matter it being in large or small quantities, that it was legally bought and is legal to posses at the least. 

Beyond that if it was only legal to possess but not to sell, why would they buy? Your task is to find out why "you" are not qualified as a buyer or what legal statis is required of those they do sell to.


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## jimdoc (Jun 11, 2010)

There is a law making sale of used converters illegal unless they are tested and certified.The fine is probably thousands of dollars.I am sure the people who enforce the law try to entrap the scrapyards.
So I can see them being leery of people looking to buy.And they probably already have a big buyer that buys all their converters.
You may do better at small garages and gas stations that do repairs.

Jim


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 11, 2010)

This is what I got after zinc HCL-CL process filtered. since I still can't get the stannous chloride right, can someone tell me if I am close to PGM recovery? I left 1 cat at the HCL-Cl for only 4 days.


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## lazersteve (Jun 11, 2010)

What are we looking at here?

I know its a filter but what is the copper colored chunk and the black spot?

Steve


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 11, 2010)

Steve,

I didn't use the charmin tissues, rather i used what it was near me, so that copper looking thing is the tissue folded and the black materials on it are left from the zinc HCL-Cl fine filtering. the bottom is the coarse filtering from the same material. 

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (Jun 11, 2010)

Before filtering through the plug how much black powder sediment was in the bottom of the soluiton and what color was the solution?

How long did the black powder settle before you filtered?

Steve


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 11, 2010)

The same amount u see in the filter, and the color of solution was pale green, that is when I filtered it. in your video you mentioned black particles are the PGM and the zinc is gray color. If there is no PGM in solution could they be the zinc particles?

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (Jun 11, 2010)

Spray the black powder off of the filter plug into a small beaker and treat the powder with a very small amount of AR (4 mL HCl + 1 mL HNO3 70%). 

The powder should dissolve and the solution should change to a red-brown or yellow color. Test the solution with a cotton swab and your stannous.

The colors for positive tests are shown in the link below (signature line).

If your original leach did not get hot enough (40- 60C) on a daily basis, you may not have extracted any PGMs only carbon.

Steve


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 11, 2010)

Steve,

will do this tommorow, but can I use the industrial nitric acid 55% HNo3 instead of the 70%? 

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (Jun 11, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> Steve,
> 
> will do this tommorow, but can I use the industrial nitric acid 55% HNo3 instead of the 70%?
> 
> ...



No problem.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 13, 2010)

All,

I just bought 3 cats medium size from French made car, Pegout 206. I am gonna run them through Steve DVD. Keep you all updated about progress.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 14, 2010)

Hi Steve,

One of the cat I purchased had some oil + dirt on them, so without cleaning it I just poured the HCL + Chlorox on it, should i remove it and clean it now? how is that gonna effect dissolving PGM?

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (Jun 14, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> One of the cat I purchased had some oil + dirt on them, so without cleaning it I just poured the HCL + Chlorox on it, should i remove it and clean it now? how is that gonna effect dissolving PGM?
> 
> ...



Now that you have wet the comb with acid I would say go forward. If you get really dirty ones, a gentle spray wash with hot water is not a bad idea. It will save you a lot of filtering time. Heat will also destroy carbon, but it runs a good chance of putting your Palladium up in smoke with the soot.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Jun 16, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> kjavanb123 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Steve,
> ...



Steve have you tested the wire mesh that is wrapped around the catalytic biscuit to see what metals are in it. It's non magnetic but does not show the usual discoloring that stainless steel would exhibit after being subjected to the high temperatures that would occur inside the cat - curious.


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## lazersteve (Jun 16, 2010)

Gill,

I have not tested the other parts of the cat. I assume they are just for heat dissipation or to allow for expansion and contraction of the cat when hot and cold.

Steve


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 17, 2010)

Steve,

it has been 4days since i wet the combs, and have been adding 200cc chlorox everday specially from the bottom of the bucket. Today i checked and i see a white powder on top of one of the comb which i removed to let the solution penetrate the comb structure. Also tested with stannous and the yellow color didn't change. is it too soon to see the result from stannous test? I am planning to wait for 10 days as your DVD instruction.

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (Jun 17, 2010)

What is the average temperature of the reaction? Heat is a vital component of the success of the leech. 

The crystals are likely salt (sodium chloride) from your description of them and are a sign you are adding way too much Clorox. Adding 30 mL twice a day is enough. If the crystals are large and transparent they may be chlorine hydrate. 

Have you tested your stannous on a control standard solution to confirm it is reactive? Stannous does not age well and should never be used until it is confirmed 100% reactive. Standard solutions are the only way to be sure your stannous is good.

Steve


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## goldenchild (Jun 17, 2010)

gustavus said:


> Steve's video on the platinum group arrived this morning, wow talk about easy to follow instructions that even I can follow, job well done Steve.
> 
> It's been said before and I'll say it again, anyone contemplating getting into cats should first preview this Platinum DVD, it gives you a total understanding of the process's involved. The DVD is well worth the money.
> 
> ...



This is a perfect thread to plug this. I too recently got the Pt DVD from Steve. Watched it and its excellent :!: I just watched and learned. I have tried a few variations of the processes in the DVD with success. Thats why its called "Fundamentals of Platinum and Palladium". Learn the basics and try what works for you. If you already know how to process gold fairly well then this Pt DVD should come quickly. 

Anyway my first job was 8 O2 sensors which I got .3 grams of Pt. In my opinion they are much easier to process than combs and beads. Just wanted to put this in here so that people are aware of another source of PGMs and promote Steve's fantastic DVD.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 19, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> What is the average temperature of the reaction? Heat is a vital component of the success of the leech.
> 
> The crystals are likely salt (sodium chloride) from your description of them and are a sign you are adding way too much Clorox. Adding 30 mL twice a day is enough. If the crystals are large and transparent they may be chlorine hydrate.
> 
> ...



Steve,

I go easy on chlorox, and the stannous i tested it, i test it first with AR + Au solution and it worked fine, but it doesn't change color for the hcl-cl leech. i read if it clears the yellow color it means no pgm, what does no color change mean?


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## lazersteve (Jun 19, 2010)

No color change may simply mean the solution is devoid of precious metals. If the color changes to orange and then clears it may mean that your solution has excess oxidizers and the test result is being obscured by the oxidizers. To be sure the excess chlorineis not the problem, place a sample in a test tube, give it a brief boil, then test it.

Steve


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## goldenchild (Jun 19, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> Steve,
> 
> I go easy on chlorox, and the stannous i tested it, i test it first with AR + Au solution and it worked fine, but it doesn't change color for the hcl-cl leech. i read if it clears the yellow color it means no pgm, what does no color change mean?



This happened to me too. I leached some combs and it came up negative for PGMS. Whatever you do DONT throw away your solution though! Although the stannous tested negative for PGMs I wasnt satisfied with the results. So what I did, which is similar to what Steve suggested, is put a small amount into a test tube not boiling it but simply putting a piece of zinc in it. Almost immediatly PGMs started cementing off of the zinc turning. Just make sure all the clorox is boiled off before trying this. Truthfully you should do this with all your materials. With cat beads I take about 50 grams and boil with AR and test with stannous. Combs, break off a small peice and leach and test. This way you save time and chemicals if the materials dont contain PGMs. By the way you can get pure zinc turnings for cheap on Steve's site.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 23, 2010)

Steve,

You are genious. Thanks for all these tips. I am still processing the 3 French made honeycombs, but is this something that can I do with 100 combs? or the process for large quantity is different?

Thanks
Kev


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## lazersteve (Jun 23, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> Steve,
> 
> You are genious. Thanks for all these tips. I am still processing the 3 French made honeycombs, but is this something that can I do with 100 combs? or the process for large quantity is different?
> 
> ...



The process works regardless of scale. I would change a few things for scaling up: 

1. I would bubble chlorine gas using a pump through the HCl instead of using liquid bleach. This would help keep the volume of the solutions to a minimum.

2. Each step would be done in a continuous process so that the hardware (barrels instead of buckets) could remain set up all the time. The liquid would simply be pumped / siphoned and filtered, through the system as each stage is completed. Fresh combs and HCl would be added to the extraction tank as the old ones become depleted of PGMs.

3. Temperature would be regulated with barrel/bucket heaters to an constant 60C to speed the process.

4. I may look into a different method to precipitate the mixed PGMs for the pregnant leach. This could save a lot of money on zinc.

These are just a few of the obvious changes.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Jun 23, 2010)

One is a foil or metal type and weighs a ton, how do the foils come out for PM's, the other comb is ceramic and weighs about a third of the other.

How do we process the metal catalyst, are they worth the bother.


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## skippy (Jun 23, 2010)

Gill, I recall reading that the foil converters are more efficient in their use of the PGMs. So on average they probably will have less than a ceramic converter.


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## Anonymous (Jun 23, 2010)

skippy said:


> Gill, I recall reading that the foil converters are more efficient in their use of the PGMs. So on average they probably will have less than a ceramic converter.



Thanks if that be the case I'm going to take a pass on foils. Much to heavy to be paying by the pound.


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## Anonymous (Jun 23, 2010)

So how do you guys process the metal ones with out digesting all that metal for a couple of grams of PM's


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## Anonymous (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm going to hang those big round ones on the wall inside my shop at eye level as a reminder. Expensive lesson, no precious metals - zero - zilch.

I mix fresh stannous daily when I'm processing.

Read the attached pdf, new technology using Zeolite. These should be easy to tell from the good ones, the ceramic is kinda punky like rotten wood and has a distinctive green color.


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## skippy (Jun 24, 2010)

Gill, so you tried processing metallic foil converters? Or are the ones you took pictures of these zeolite based converters you mentioned? I would assume if you tried to acid leach a stainless steel substrate converter the metal would interfere with the dissolving of the PGMs until the foil part of the substrate is totally dissolved, which may be very tough given stainless steel's chemical resistance and the wash coat keep the acid from freely attacking it. There is a company in Germany that finely shreds the foil converters and then separates the wash coat from the pulverized stainless foil. There was a link someone posted some time back to a video of the process.


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## Anonymous (Jun 24, 2010)

skippy said:


> Gill, so you tried processing metallic foil converters? Or are the ones you took pictures of these zeolite based converters you mentioned? I would assume if you tried to acid leach a stainless steel substrate converter the metal would interfere with the dissolving of the PGMs until the foil part of the substrate is totally dissolved, which may be very tough given stainless steel's chemical resistance and the wash coat keep the acid from freely attacking it. There is a company in Germany that finely shreds the foil converters and then separates the wash coat from the pulverized stainless foil. There was a link someone posted some time back to a video of the process.



Both the large rounds are Zeolite based converters that I purchased in the field by the pound, I'm not going to mention the amount paid other than to say it's very expensive landfill material. The weight of both combined is 37.25 lbs

Dealing with people of good reputation helps, they have agreed to reimburse me for the Zeolite based converters, they're happy to have learned about them and how to easily identify these.

Best Regards
Gill


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## kjavanb123 (Jul 6, 2010)

Steve

I went through processing the 3 pegout cats, and I have couple of questions.

1. The fine paper filters used after zinc percipitant process doesn't let go of fine particles, I wrinsed the larger PGM particles with water, then heat up the beaker and evaporate all the water. how can i remove any remaining fine PGM stuck in the filter papers? do you burn the papers and somehow remove the fine PGM? Plz advise.

2. AR adding part, in DVD you mentioned you pre-heat the PGM + AR solution to 100mL. how much water is needed?

Thanks
Kevin


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## lazersteve (Jul 6, 2010)

kjavanb123 said:


> 1. The fine paper filters used after zinc percipitant process doesn't let go of fine particles, I wrinsed the larger PGM particles with water, then heat up the beaker and evaporate all the water. how can i remove any remaining fine PGM stuck in the filter papers? do you burn the papers and somehow remove the fine PGM? Plz advise.



Since the video was produced I have found it easier to allow the mixed PGM black powder to settle and siphon off the liquid. Test the liquid for PGMs and properly dispose of it if it's negative. If positive add some more zinc. Soak the mixed PGM powder at room temperature in a 10% HCl solution until there are no more signs of zinc dissolving (tiny fizzing bubbles). Combine these rinses with the siphoned liquid for testing. Finally wash the black powder with hot water, settle, and siphon. Now the mixed powder is washed into a reaction flask with a spray bottle and treated with AR as per the video.

The filters you speak of can be added directly to the AR after cutting away any obviously barren areas or as mentioned in the video they can be added to your PGM burn bag of filters.



kjavanb123 said:


> 2. AR adding part, in DVD you mentioned you pre-heat the PGM + AR solution to 100mL. how much water is needed?


That should be heated to just below 100C. 

I add just enough water to cover the material. 

Steve


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## kjavanb123 (Jul 7, 2010)

Thanks Steve,

I am curios about the AR adding section, I had about 2.27grams of mixed PGM excluding the fine PGM powder which I am going to remove using your instruction. so I added 30ml of HCL and 30 ml of water and 10ml of Nitric acid, however I left them at room temp for like 2 days, then I heated it twice I could see small gray - white particles just like the video, but the color was darker, tested with stannous and turned out to be very dark brown. I followed ur video, and added 10ml of water + 5gram of Ammonium chloride pour it in plus a spoon of ammonium chloride. and heat it for 30 mins, noticed there are some brownish powder at the bottom of beaker, also the liquid tested emrald green. I tried to boil off the nitric but it mostly had white smoke. what happens if i skip the nitric removal section and go directly to ammonium chlord adding section? also do i need to dilute the brownish liquid from AR adding section?

Thanks
Kev


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## kjavanb123 (Jul 7, 2010)

ouch

I just found out there is a small crack on my DVD, and right at the track that shows separation with AR it rejects it. ouch. ouch. thank God i have good memory, Steve is there any other way I can get a copy? I have purchased it legally through your site. 

One thing about AR adding, i boil it till what? and when you mentioned the PGM filter burning, you mean actually burning them? then drop the 10% HCL on the ashes? I am confused.

Thanks
Kev


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