# First Post, first silver bars!



## Gsracer (Jan 1, 2021)

Well since the pandemic like many others ive been looking for a new hobby, so silver. Ive been reading on this forum for a while and decided to finally join. This place is a great resource to learn and i have really enjoyed reading many posts and threads, and have watched numerous videos by sreetips. I'm not at refining just yet however, well... see below.

I've been collecting silver for a while mostly bullion and 90% junk coins and of course that became a Segway to sterling silver of which I have acquired to this date about 300 troy ounces of sterling, overall I've averaged about 16.00 per troy ounce of sterling, given the pandemic prices i don't think I've done too bad. Again this is just a hobby so I'm not trying to build a fortune here. 

I've been recently categorizing and making sets out of what i can, being a lover of history some of the stuff i cant bring myself to destroy so when i can i resell it typically way above melt in hopes that the person buying it will use it and perhaps give some of these items another 100 years of life.

However this post is not about processiong silver as im not there yet, but i wanted to try my hand at melting some of the sterling which was too far gone to be saved.

I purchased a propane furnace, graphite crucible and some graphite molds and decided to melt about 50 troy ounces of the stuff into bars.

Now i had never done this before but i do weld and fabricate so i had some experience with molten metal.

My first attempt at bars went quite well, id really like to improve the outcome of some of the bars, maybe get the ripple pour as i have seen some of you guys do but i haven't been able to get there just yet.

Heres my process, again i had no experience doing this just what i gathered from reading here and other places.

My process is pretty much clean the silver ware with soap and water. Place into the crucible. When’s the metal is molten around 1900 degrees I shut off the furnace. Sprinkle about a table spoon of borax and remove, I usually get a few impurities out. Stir with a graphite rod and continue to heat. My pour temperature is around 2100-2200 degrees and I am pouring into the preheated molds with a map torch on top then quenching. I am seeing a melt loss off between 1.25-2.25%.

Here is some pics

The 3 small bars are between 10.2 and 10.8 troy and the big one i dont know as it maxes out my scale. I speculate its between 15-20 troy. I have some outgassing on the top of a few.

Any tips to help me improve would be appreciated.

Thank you all.


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## Gsracer (Jan 1, 2021)

forgot the pics of the bars


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## butcher (Jan 2, 2021)

Maybe I am missing something, or I just do not understand?
Are you just melting metals or did you refine the silver?

From what I understand you are taking easily recognized and stamped sterling silver and melting it into an unrecognizable block of sterling silver that is harder to sell for its value than the scrap was?
Why melt it into a bar?
Why not just sell the scrap as it was (marked or recognized for its value), or if you must melt it then why not just melt then pouring it into cold water to make beads and small chunks or a shot of the sterling, and then refine it with nitric acid and then an electrolytic cell?


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## kurtak (Jan 2, 2021)

Gsracer said:


> Any tips to help me improve would be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you all.



In my opinion your bars/pours look VERY NICE considering your set up & method --- or to put it another way I would call the bars/pours a job "well done"

About the only way you will get better looking pours would be to set up to do your melts & pours in an oxygen free set up - which is something you really don't need worry about unless you are wanting to produce a 5 nine pure silver that is an oxygen free product

So outside of setting up to produce a 5 nine (99999) oxygen free product you are already producing a well done product (IMO)

Kurt


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## kurtak (Jan 2, 2021)

butcher said:


> From what I understand you are taking easily recognized and stamped sterling silver and melting it into an unrecognizable block of sterling silver that is harder to sell for its value than the scrap was?



Per the underlined - As much as that advice is "often" given here on the forum --- it is only true "to a point"

The question is where/how you intend to sell your silver 

IF (the big IF) you intend to take your silver to the local pawn shop &/or local coin dealer/shop (that also buys metals as scrap) then yes - they like to see the un-melted as is "marked" scrap

That is because their testing methods are limited so their testing methods are really nothing more then to confirm that the metal is in fact what it is marked as --- in other words (most) of their testing methods only give a "ball park" result of purity - so if you melt it (no longer has an identifying mark) they no longer have a true confirmation of test against the object as marked - therefore they are likely to ding you on the pay out because you could have added "a bit" of copper to the melt so they are going to want to pay out at the "low" end of their ball park test --- example; - when melted they may only want to pay out as 900 silver instead of 925 silver --- or - they may suspect that the silver was poured around a "filler metal" in the center of the bar & therefore not want to buy at all

So yes - if selling to pawn shops or coin dealers you are better off taking the scrap in "as is" with the markings stamped on the scrap because their tests are done to confirm the metal is "as marked"

On the other hand - if you intend to sell direct to a refinery then it doesn't matter because they are going to do a melt & a "true" assay on the melt anyway --- you just need to make sure everything you put in your melt is in fact true to as marking --- therefore you need to do the confirmation (acid) testing of everything you put in your melt before sending to the refinery



> Why melt it into a bar?



Because (especially when dealing with silver) you can save anywhere from quite a bit to a LOT in shipping cost by melting into bars --- that's because melted bars take up MUCH less space in a box then the same weight of a bunch of "as is" sterling items --- in other words what can take 2 or 3 larger boxes of sterling "as is" items to ship - can be reduced to one "flat rate" box by melting to bars

Example; - a few years ago I had a little over 1,200 ozt sterling - about half of it was large items like serving tray's, bowls & cups with the other half mostly flatware (spoons, forks & knife "handles") & even though I had smashed all the bowls & cups down with a hammer & even folded the platers (hammered flat) it still took up 3 large boxes (about 2 1/2 to 3 cubic foot per box) so one day I fired up my furnace - melted it all down & poured it all into kilo bars & that 1,200 ozt sterling now fits in a medium flat rate box with room for 1/3 to half again more kilo bars (or room for another 350 - 500 ozt in the flat rate box)

The cost of shipping 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 regular large boxes - compared to shipping a small, medium or large flat rate box can make a big difference when it comes to silver 

Bottom line - if/when I go to ship to a refinery I will save (make) money on just the shipping

Another way to put it - the kilo bars take up very little space in my gun safe - other wise I would have to store the larger boxes (of as is sterling) in the bottom of my closet &/or buy another safe just to store the silver

So (IMO) yes - if you are taking silver in small amounts to a pawn shop or coin dealer you are better off to NOT melt it --- on the other hand if you plan to send larger amounts (500 plus ozt) direct to a refinery you are better served pouring to bars

Kurt


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## Gsracer (Jan 2, 2021)

Thank you both for your replies and constructive criticism.

Kurtak hit the nail on the head, this stuff takes a lot of space and it was already crowding my gun safe as it is. I live in Miami, Florida and i can tell you that any coin shop or pawnshop locally here will completely rip you off, buying or selling im talking 50 percent for sterling. I understand everyone has to make a profit but the premiums that they charge for buying and selling is so bad that its worth me to drive 2 hours for even a 200 dollar purchase or sale.

Having said that i will be selling directly to a refinery if and when i decide to sell and as kurtak mentioned they pretty much told me the same thing for sterling, they will do the melt and assay method anyway so it didnt matter how i brought it in. The same thing was going to happen for any silver that i refined myself so i thought it could hurt to get some practice in melting and pouring. 

The goal would be to refine it myself with the method butcher posted, shot, nitric, cell. However im just not setup yet to do that safely and as you guys can imagine i wanted to get some part of this going or at least practiced.

Thank you again!


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## philddreamer (Jan 2, 2021)

Another option for you is to trade your silver scrap for pure bullion! 

https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=14782&hilit=scrapman#p156277

Take care! Phil


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## Gsracer (Jan 5, 2021)

i saw scrapmans deal, and it is a good one. But i really want to learn this stuff plus its fun.

Going to put about another 100 troy through the furnace this week, well see how it goes.


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## etack (Jan 5, 2021)

Gsracer said:


> i saw scrapmans deal, and it is a good one. But i really want to learn this stuff plus its fun.
> 
> Going to put about another 100 troy through the furnace this week, well see how it goes.




That's not a good deal anyway you slice it. Its almost scandalous we allow it on the forum your better off to go to the pawn shop. 47% is a crap premium with an assey charge of unmarked silver.

Eric

I have not had a bad deal with scrapman we did one 10 years ago. 

I think if people were on here trying to buy gold like that they would be laughft out of here in a heartbeat.


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## kurtak (Jan 6, 2021)

philddreamer said:


> Another option for you is to trade your silver scrap for pure bullion!
> 
> https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=14782&hilit=scrapman#p156277
> 
> Take care! Phil



I have never quite been able to figure out where scrapman's deal is a good deal --- in NO WAY am I saying it's a scam - he has offered terms for a trade & if you accept those terms - then it is a deal in terms of a "business" deal - I just don't see it as a good deal

To clarify - If a store is selling a product for $10 but I buy the same product from another store for $12 I didn't get scammed - I just didn't get the better deal --- such is the case here

The reason why I don't think scrapman's deal is a good deal (using the spot price of silver as of the time of this post)

Spot silver = $27.64 = 88 cent per gram (rounded down from actual .888)

If I sell direct to a refinery (based on a 500 ozt silver minimum) I get 95 % spot --- or 84 cents per gram or $26.12 ozt

Scrapman wants 47 grams silver in trade for a 1ozt (31.1) gram coin/round

47 grams silver (sold to refinery at 95% spot) is .84 X 47 = 39.48 

I can go directly to Golden State Mint & buy 1 ozt coins/rounds from them for $30 each (price varies depending on type coin & quantity you buy)

Why would I pay (trade) $39.48 for the same coin I can buy direct from Golden State Mint at $30

Put another way ------

I can buy 500 ozt silver (coins/rounds) from GSM for $15,000

I would need to send a refinery 574.27 ozt silver to make $15,000 - which I could then buy the 500 ozt coins/round from GSM

I would need to send scrapman 755.6 ozt silver to get 500 ozt coins/rounds back


I could send that 755.6 silver to the refinery - get paid $19,834.50 - go buy 500 coins/rounds from GSM (for $15,000) - & end up with $4,834.50 in my pocket

Why would I make the trade :?: 

Again - not saying scrapman is scamming anyone - he is making an open & honest business (trade) deal

I'm just not seeing where it is the best deal a person can make in the business of trading silver

Kurt


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## nickvc (Jan 6, 2021)

I think where scrapman deal comes into play is if you have relatively small quantities of scrap that well might fall under the amount needed to get a decent return from the refiners and those doing the trades are wanting stamped product rather than scrap or money.
From what I have seen on his thread most customers seem happy and the terms are clearly explained so the forum is happy to allow him to trade, as for advertising to buy or sell gold product it’s up to individuals to make an offer openly with what they are happy to accept or pay.


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## butcher (Jan 6, 2021)

I agree, I have not traded any silver with scrap man, but I have heard nothing but praise from those who have, I have heard no complaints from his customers, it seems he has been honest in his dealings and that both parties are happy with the deals they have made.

It is not everyone that will acquire large volumes of silver scrap and learn enough to refine that silver to 999.9% by chemically using dangerous acids to recover the silver and then setting up and running an electrical cell, or they have better things to do like concentrating on collecting metals or learning to refine gold...

I feel scrap man has provided a service for those who wish to trade scrap for refined marked silver rounds, and do not wish to refine the scrap themselves and would prefer silver rounds much more easily traded or recognized for their value, and easier to stack in a hiding place.

I cannot speak for scrapman's rates, but I would suspect he is giving a better dealer return on the silver than the local pawn shops of bullion or scrap dealers, if not then I do not see where he would get any business from the members here.


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## Lou (Jan 6, 2021)

He's also not hosing anyone on the assay either.

Go get 95% from your refiner on 30 ounces of your crap jewelry and tell me if it ain't really 88% after all the horecrap is done and over with.


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## etack (Jan 6, 2021)

Lou said:


> He's also not hosing anyone on the assay either.
> 
> Go get 95% from your refiner on 30 ounces of your crap jewelry and tell me if it ain't really 88% after all the horecrap is done and over with.




Even if they shaft you with a 12% charge and not the 5% you know you should have. You will still come out better. Then you take you money and go to GSM and buy the same rounds for 10% premium with free shipping.

*I'm not saying that he's scamming people. I am saying its a bad deal.*




Eric


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## Gsracer (Jan 6, 2021)

well in my defense, i was trying to be polite. As others have said it may be a great deal for some but it not for me. In either case, i get what you both are saying.


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## Gsracer (Jan 6, 2021)

well back to my sterling bars, i got a scale that will measure up to 3000g by .1 gram. Its pretty accurate as all my standard weights where on the money up to 200 grams. So i threw in some of the mixed lots of sterling and a 10 oz bar and a 1.8 oz bar that came out poorly.

The pour and melt went pretty smooth with the procedure outlined above, I think this is the best bar ive poured to date.

Here are the pics


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## Gsracer (Jan 6, 2021)

continuation




The before and after weight was 20.50 ozt troy, finished bar came in at 20.19 ozt when i got the left over out of the crucible it measure at .29 ozt leaving a melt loss of .04 ozt or 1.2grams. Im pretty happy with a 0.15% melt loss give or take








After i stamped the weight and cleaned it up. Got an interesting crystallization on cooling, i thought you would only see that on really high purity silver. Guess you can too on high purity sterling. lol


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## Lou (Jan 7, 2021)

Doesn’t quite look the same as pure silver.


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## kurtak (Jan 7, 2021)

Lou said:


> He's also not hosing anyone on the assay either.
> 
> Go get 95% from your refiner on 30 ounces of your crap jewelry and tell me if it ain't really 88% after all the horecrap is done and over with.



Lou - a couple things here 

First off - yes - you are right - on a 30 ozt lot NO refiner is going to pay 95% - refineries generally have a sliding scale of payout based on lot size sent in (examples; - 85% if under 250 ozt - 90% if under 500 ozt - 95% 500 plus ozt) Those numbers can/do change (in percent &/or lot size) with different refiners

Also - most refiners have a minimum - under the minimum they will likely have assay frees (&/or other fees/charges) - over the minimum they generally wave those fees/charges

Second - there is no question about it - some refiners will flat out cheat you ("hidden" fees - "high" melt loss etc.) but there are certainly "honest" refiners out there --- over the years I have dealt with both (as in I have only dealt with two) the first one was cheating me - the second one (& the one I currently deal with) is honest

On the last lot of sterling I sent in (551 ozt of 925) I had 1.2 ozt melt loss (acceptable as far as I am concerned on 500 plus ozt) & I got their full 94% payout - NO fees/charges - so -----

I need to make bit of a correction here - yesterday (off the top of my head) I posted 95% - the refiner I am dealing with pays 94% on a minimum lot of 500 (plus) ozt of actual silver

Note for those still learning - when you send in a lot of sterling - the refiner pays on the amount of actual recovered 999 silver - so you need to send enough sterling (925) that the refiner will recover their minimum of refined 999 silver to get the full payment they offer

Bottom line - there is no question about it - there are some refiners out there that WILL screw you - but on the other hand there are certainly refiners out there that are honest - the trick is finding the honest ones 

Examples; - the first refiner I dealt with was a cheater - the second one I found is & has been honest --- a very good friend of mine (he is a coin dealer & has been in business for many years) told me how he had to go through something like 3 - 4 refiners before he found an honest one - he has been happy & dealing with that refiner for years now 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Jan 7, 2021)

Lou said:


> Doesn’t quite look the same as pure silver.



Considering he is just a beginner & learning & his melt setup & that he is melting sterling - his bars look VERY nice :!: 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Jan 7, 2021)

etack said:


> Lou said:
> 
> 
> > He's also not hosing anyone on the assay either.
> ...



Agreed - & that's my point

47 grams trade for 31.1 grams (coin) = 15.9 grams paid for the coin

15.9 grams (call it a half ozt) = $13.50 (at current price) --- that is what you are paying in trade for a coin

$27.00 (current silver price) + 13.50 = $40.50

I can buy the same coins direct from GSM for $30.00 - $32.00

Again - in NO WAY am I saying scrapmans deal is a scam

The terms of his deal are open & up front with nothing hidden - if you except the terms & the terms are delivered & are happy at the end of the deal - then it is an "as agreed" deal made (no scam)

But that does not mean its a good deal - that said - on the other side of the coin - as a trade - for some people it may in fact be a good deal

All I am saying is that if you are going to deal/trade in silver look at the options & do your math

In this case - it has been suggested that Gsracer make the trade - IMO - considering he is well on his way to to hitting a minimum to send to a refiner - making this trade would be a VERY BAD deal & suggesting making such a deal is VERY BAD advice - IMO :!: 

Kurt


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## Gsracer (Jan 7, 2021)

Lou said:


> Doesn’t quite look the same as pure silver.



Oh i know, i was just being facetious. Beautiful bars lou, hopefully i get there soon!



kurtak said:


> Considering he is just a beginner & learning & his melt setup & that he is melting sterling - his bars look VERY nice :!:
> 
> Kurt



Thank you Kurt!



kurtak said:


> In this case - it has been suggested that Gsracer make the trade - IMO - considering he is well on his way to to hitting a minimum to send to a refiner - making this trade would be a VERY BAD deal & suggesting making such a deal is VERY BAD advice - IMO :!:
> 
> Kurt



Pretty much my math as well.


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## Lou (Jan 7, 2021)

Hey all,
Like you guys, I'm just making an observation. I know Jay and have known him off other forums since before the GRF. He's a good guy and yes, he's absolutely making money. Good for him. If it doesn't work for some people, go get the better deal...but as a mod, I can't have an opinion on it if he's delivering product and people are happy.

FYI Kurt, I work at a refinery (we now have four locations after an acquisition) and work with other refiners predominantly, people you would know, as THEIR service provider (that is the refiner's refiner). So there is always assay exchange, there is always surveillance, there's always the cost known to the penny before it's even done. We do some outside work from customers to be sure, but it's not a melt and assay shop by any stretch, it's toll conversion.

I was just highlighting how important it is that you consider the fact Jay is being straight on his deal. That to me is worth something. Heck, I think a 10% premium on silver coins that aren't maple leafs/silver eagles ABSOLUTELY INSANE (can get those cheaper!) but I'd gladly pay it to Jim who owns GSM because he's a straight up gent.

And Gsracer, I'm on the forum to educate people first and foremost. I love separation science. It's my day job and it was once a hobby. 

Ok, that clarified, moving on to the real topic, casting silver bars and having them look nice.

I posted that picture of the bars because they show the spectrum of what hand cast silver bars can look like, mostly because my buyer just remelts them and makes coins they sell to the Mint. I also wanted to show you the crystal planes are more defined/equiaxed where as yours directionally point inward. A tell tale sign of pure silver is that polycrystalline look, which I call tiger striping. All the Engelhard/JM bars, they have that right out of their cast iron molds and then they get the scotch bright pad to the matte finish. Same thing with Silvertowne. 

The first bar I make has the cooling swirls because the mold I use starts off cold. The second bar is flatter surfaced. If I'm busy and I let the induction furnace run overlong, it picks up oxygen, as you can see in a few of the bars, the case example seen in the upper left. On the bottom bar, you can also see some of the glaze with some carbon soot (I throw a bit of beeswax in the melt) from the new SiC crucible I used (bottom bar).

None of this really matters (on mine, as they're not meant to be pretty) as this was part of a small couple thousand ounce lot of silver that's going to go into a big directional casting furnace and all that crap floats up and stays up on top of 20K other ounces as that furnace basically does not ever shut down, and they deoxidize the silver anyways (the furnace runs in reducing flame).

The keys to nice pretty bars of silver (or gold for that matter), in no particular order:
1. Pour as big a bar as you can. 
2. Use a hot mold if you don't want a pipe/contraction sink hole. I don't use a cherry red mold, but it's dull red after the first few bars.
3. Use a steady hand in pouring (this is where a hot mold). Not too fast, not too slow. Don't want to splash it and you don't want to pour in the same place. I start at one end and move to the other when I really want a bottom that doesn't have the "pour spot" mark.
4. Pour the metal at as close to the freezing point of the melt as possible for bigger bars.
5. Keep the metal molten for as short as possible to minimize impurity uptake/oxidation.
6. Use inert atmosphere or add a deoxidant (charcoal or wax for silver)
7. Gentle bushy flame for the bars if you want the surface flame polished flat and shiny.
8. Do not use flux unless you need it, and if you do, remove it with a quartz rod (forms borosilicate and sticks to the quartz and can be drug off the metal surface).


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## silver1 (Apr 7, 2022)

Eye candy!


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## Gsracer (Apr 7, 2022)

wow, beautiful, details on your technique would be much appreciated!


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## Gwar (Apr 7, 2022)

Although I have only been pouring for a few months, I feel these are worthy to add to the post, I have not had them officially tested for purity, as soon as they are confirmed, I will add the .999 to them and their weight..


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## orvi (Apr 7, 2022)

I have much to learn, as I see those pictures  

Very nice work guys, and also big thanks to Lou, sharing his valuable knowledge


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## Traderdoc (Apr 14, 2022)

Lou said:


> Hey all,
> Like you guys, I'm just making an observation. I know Jay and have known him off other forums since before the GRF. He's a good guy and yes, he's absolutely making money. Good for him. If it doesn't work for some people, go get the better deal...but as a mod, I can't have an opinion on it if he's delivering product and people are happy.
> 
> FYI Kurt, I work at a refinery (we now have four locations after an acquisition) and work with other refiners predominantly, people you would know, as THEIR service provider (that is the refiner's refiner). So there is always assay exchange, there is always surveillance, there's always the cost known to the penny before it's even done. We do some outside work from customers to be sure, but it's not a melt and assay shop by any stretch, it's toll conversion.
> ...


Lou, could you please explain how you use wax as an antioxidant? What type of wax and where do you place it?
Thanks for the info.


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## Lou (Apr 15, 2022)

I used to throw a piece sized amount of beeswax on the top of the melt. On the occasions I do add borax, I just dip a quartz rod in and it immediately wicks off the borax and any carbon scum.

Doing the wax effectively prevents the cabbage patch sprouting that is observed when the Ag is overcooked in air.


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## silver1 (Apr 28, 2022)

Silver to gold!


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## Traderdoc (May 2, 2022)

Lou said:


> I used to throw a piece sized amount of beeswax on the top of the melt. On the occasions I do add borax, I just dip a quartz rod in and it immediately wicks off the borax and any carbon scum.
> 
> Doing the wax effectively prevents the cabbage patch sprouting that is observed when the Ag is overcooked in air.


Thanks for the info. I will try this with my next pour.


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## Lou (May 3, 2022)

Well I by no means recommend it. I just said I did it. While it may deoxidize the silver, there can still be splatter. So proceed with caution!


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