# Rhodium plunge today



## markqf1 (Oct 16, 2008)

WOW!
Anybody have any idea what made rhodium plunge 600.00 an oz. today?

Mark


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## Anonymous (Oct 16, 2008)

Yep, pretty soon it is going to be low enough for me to buy. I am liking platium too. Oh, forgot already trying to buy palladium, but no sellers so far.



Jim


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## Husker (Oct 16, 2008)

markqf1 said:


> WOW!
> Anybody have any idea what made rhodium plunge 600.00 an oz. today?
> 
> Mark



It plunged 750 2 days ago. It has been dropping like this frequently lately. Simply pull up a tech chart from kitco.com and be amazed at its fall.

Jim.


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## Oz (Oct 17, 2008)

Using some rough numbers about 80% of PGM use worldwide is for catalytic converters. 

The US auto industry is living on bailout money, GM even tried to merge with Ford but failed (who could have imagined that marriage?) it now looks like GM will merge with Chrysler.

GM announced they will only finance customer’s purchase of their cars if you have a credit score of 700 or more and 20% cash down.

Within the next year it is expected that 40% of the US car dealerships will close.

Citibank is one of the largest lenders to car dealerships to purchase cars to have on the lots. Citibank announced they will no longer lend to dealers in New York or New Jersey. They are considering Nevada and Arizona as well among others.

So in my opinion (for what its worth) is that PGM prices will stay low until the auto industry turns around. If you can buy scrap or refined PGMs at these prices and hold them you will do well when it turns around. It won’t be fixed quickly.


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## markqf1 (Oct 17, 2008)

The folks that have been living on credit are the ones hurt the most.
Always best to pay cash.
If you don't have it, then don't buy it.

Rhodium and all the pgm's will go back up,.. just gonna take some time.

Mark


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## Oz (Oct 17, 2008)

Sad to say, it is the ones that have been living on credit and beyond their means that are getting bailed out with my tax payments. It is not just Wall Street, they are talking now of the government buying and forgiving portions of people’s mortgages and issuing a new federally guaranteed mortgage they can afford. Since I only owe half of what my house is worth even with prices going down, I get to pay taxes to help someone else get theirs paid down since they were living beyond their means.

They are rewarded for their excesses, and I get penalized for being frugal.


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## Lou (Oct 17, 2008)

The PGM situation will get worse before it improves. They are tied strongly to how our economy, and by extension, the world economy fares. I think in the coming months there will be a bonanza of physical demand for the platinum group metals and when we see the light at the other end of this recession/depression tunnel, good prices will resume. No time like the present to buy as far as I'm concerned, just give it a few months more for it to hit bottom. There's money in it falling, money at the bottom, and more on the way up.

Lou


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## Never_Evil (Oct 17, 2008)

as soon as rhodium plunges to $600 bux, I will be selling everything to buy as much as I can.


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## Harold_V (Oct 18, 2008)

Oz said:


> They are rewarded for their excesses, and I get penalized for being frugal.



*No good deed goes unpunished!*

Sadly, you and I are in the same boat. I not only live within my means, but have purchased nothing with credit since 1977. I pay cash, or I don't go. That includes new vehicles and the property we own. 

We're not rich, but we have no debt. 

Harold


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## Oz (Oct 18, 2008)

Sad to say our boats are not the same. 

In principle I lived my life in regards to credit the same as you have. Starting 5 years ago I made my living buying distressed properties with cash and rehabbing them to sell. I paid cash for everything. I even had the foresight to see the low rates by Greenspan as a potential trap 2 years before it was sprung and was closing out my positions in real estate. 

However I had the misfortune to fall 20 feet onto the corner of a cinderblock into the small of my back while working on a house I was getting ready for sale. Being self employed there was no insurance to help. As I recovered I sold the rentals I had planed on using for retirement and depleted my cash reserves to pay the bills. I have my health now and live in a house worth twice what I owe however being self employed and everyone cutting back on all expenditures I have concern as to my future ability to have work that will allow me to make the payments. As I have equity in my home I will close my position if I must by selling my house to break even before it gets too bad. It does not change the fact that this excess on the part of the majority could cause me to go from a homeowner into a renter.

I lived well and made good money and the risks and rewards were my own decisions and I accept full responsibility for those decisions. Fate always plays its hand as well like in my injury, such is life and I am fine with that. I do however resent having to bail out others that seem unable to accept the consequences of their own financial decisions.


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## Harold_V (Oct 18, 2008)

Oz said:


> Sad to say our boats are not the same.


Wow! I'd say you're right! 

I had the misfortune to fall three years ago. I was working on the exterior walls of the house we've (my wife and I) been building for years. The walls are made of Rastra, a leave-in-place foam/cement block that weighs about 100 pounds per 7½' block. When I fell, I pulled one of the blocks off the wall, which landed on my chest. I was knocked out and suffered a concussion. The fall cost $5,000, including the 27 mile run to the hospital by ambulance. After a couple cat scans and some x-rays they pronounced my well and sent me home. I was sore for a long time, but suffered no permanent consequences aside from an empty wallet. Quite a different story from yours. You have my sympathy and understanding. 



> Fate always plays its hand as well like in my injury, such is life and I am fine with that. I do however resent having to bail out others that seem unable to accept the consequences of their own financial decisions.


Not just financial consequences. Seems like the average person, today, is always the victim, never responsible for their lot in life. I believe we reap what we sow, with exceptions for accidents. My good fortune, such as it is, is not because I was "lucky", but because I worked hard and tried to do the right thing by those that interacted with me. I try to treat others like I'd like to be treated----and don't ask for anything I'm not willing to provide. I know there is no "free lunch", and am offended by anyone that feels there is. 

I wish you good fortune. With your wisdom and attitude, you may suffer some hard times, but you'll land on your feet. 

Harold


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## butcher (Oct 18, 2008)

life is hard times, what doesnt kill us strengthens us.


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## markqf1 (Oct 18, 2008)

Most Americans are spoiled and no not what hard times are.
I will be planting my garden in the spring just as I always do and recommend you all do the same.

Those that are counting on the government to bail them out will learn the hard way that bail-outs should not be government business.

Before it's over, all of these political promises won't amount to what your hill of beans will.

Mark


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## Harold_V (Oct 18, 2008)

markqf1 said:


> Most Americans are spoiled and no not what hard times are.


True!

You see evidence of that daily-----but the long needed message is now being delivered. All of us need to learn to live within our means, and maybe abandon the idea that it's important to keep up with the other guy. 

I wonder-----have any of you ever considered the difference between being paid interest, and paying interest on unnecessary debt? Do you _really _"need" that new snowmobile (ski-jet, fishing boat, third car, new car, etc.)?

Harold


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## butcher (Oct 19, 2008)

roaring 20's, then depression, when will we learn ?I guess we need another lesson. hopefully our leaders we elect will not loose our country before we get through the lesson again.


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## Jehu (Oct 19, 2008)

Harold_V said:


> I wonder-----have any of you ever considered the difference between being paid interest, and paying interest on unnecessary debt? Do you _really _"need" that new snowmobile (ski-jet, fishing boat, third car, new car, etc.)?
> 
> Harold



Yes I have. A relative of mine can support his family of six with the interest on a deposit he made and his rather modest job. He rents, his wife stays at home and they are truly happy. 

Look at the sums. If you buy a $500,000 property, at todays intrest rates here in Australia, you will pay out about $48,000 per year in repayments. After the loan is payed off in 30 years time, you will have given the bank around $1,000,000 extra on top of the $500,000 for the property. Not good. 

On the other hand, look what happens if you put say $250,000 in an intrest bearing account at say 10%. The bank will then be paying YOU $25,000 a year. And that's not taking into account compound intrest. That's slightly less than minium wage for a year over here.

It's still not a free lunch but boy that one lunch will give you plenty of meals in leftovers! 

Well that's my 2c anyway. (atm that would be 1.7USc) 

The key is modesty and conentment.


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## Oz (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks Harold, I am doing rather well physically now but it was a large setback. Economically I do tend to land on my feet, but I need to start counting as to the 9 lives I get, as I have been using them up. 

It just frosts me that my government expects me to mitigate other people’s risks instead of them being responsible for their own lives. Life is not a free lunch, yet they keep trying. I’ll buy a man lunch if he is broke, but resent being told I must especially when theirs is prime rib and I eat bologna and cheese.


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## Anonymous (Oct 19, 2008)

10 percent interest, have fun trying to find a bank that will pay you even half of that.

Jim


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## markqf1 (Oct 19, 2008)

Good point! ... Anybody offering 5% for less than your lifetime is a deal right now.
Mark


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## Jehu (Oct 19, 2008)

Ahem, 10% is what the bank is giving my Uncle atm as a term deposit. I personaly have a savings account that gives me 7%.


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## Anonymous (Oct 19, 2008)

That is good, I guess in the USA we owe so much we have to settle for less.


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## Jehu (Oct 19, 2008)

Umm, yeah! Well, it did start on Wall Street right? And Kevin Rudd has now garranteed all our savings as well. So if my bank went under, taking my savings with it, the government will give my my money back!

Otherwise, yes, now would be the time to start buying PM's.


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## markqf1 (Oct 20, 2008)

It is a global economy these days.
Anything ( including the unprecedented ) could happen at any time.
A sure thing doesn't exist.
Be smart and feel lucky for the moment.
It could be your turn before morning.

Mark


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## Anonymous (Oct 27, 2008)

Another reason for the drop in PGM prices might be the news that in Japan they developed a replacement for Catalytic convertors, or atleast reduce the amount required by 90%, I think that is the amount the article stated. I don't know that they have started production yet but companies are probably going to slow their purchasing to reduce their supplies to minimum levels. Then when the new technology is accepted they will switch over and their minimum quantities will be enough for years instead of months.


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## Husker (Oct 27, 2008)

Does anyone have a link to this process misnomer, posted about? With Platinum down, I was looking at buying a lot of cats to sit on, but if this is true, then platinum may not recover enough to make it worth tying up a lot of money on it.

Jim.


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## patnor1011 (Oct 27, 2008)

my friend from south africa said that most of the banks there offering 10% interest in long term deposits...


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## markqf1 (Oct 27, 2008)

Husker,
It is called nanotechnology and you can read about it here:
http://www.catalyticonverters.com/blog/category/catalytic-converter-technology/

Mark


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## markqf1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Won't be long till we will be wishing that we could sell our Rh for the price of Au.

Cats, thermocouple wire, industrial catalysts and maybe some cancer drugs.
What else besides Arthurs fantasy jewelery can be done with it?

Mark


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## Harold_V (Nov 7, 2008)

markqf1 said:


> Won't be long till we will be wishing that we could sell our Rh for the price of Au.
> 
> Cats, thermocouple wire, industrial catalysts and maybe some cancer drugs.
> What else besides Arthurs fantasy jewelery can be done with it?
> ...


It is used, albeit on a limited basis, for plating some defense items. While I was not successful in my bid, when I ran my machine shop, one of the items I bid required rhodium plating. Rhodium, then, was around $400/ounce. 

Jewelers also use it for plating white jewelry items when they have soldered joints that don't match well. I'd suggest that plating is one of the greater uses, but still quite limited.

Harold


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## Oz (Nov 20, 2008)

Kitco this morning.


RHODIUM 11/20/2008 8:44AM $985.00 Down -190.00 -16.17%


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## hungry (Nov 20, 2008)

You notice there is only a 26.30$ difference in price between gold and platinum at the moment?

ED


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## Husker (Nov 20, 2008)

Could be the day on Friday where Platinum falls below gold in value.

With the reduction in car manufacturing, I have been looking for this to happen. Rhodium is probably next to fall below gold.

Jim.


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## hungry (Nov 20, 2008)

19.40$ now.

You may be right Husker.

ED


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## markqf1 (Nov 20, 2008)

It may take a while but, I think it will go back up. Hold on to what you've got now though.
I would rather have some pgm's laying around than stocks at the moment.

Mark


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## Husker (Nov 20, 2008)

markqf1 said:


> It may take a while but, I think it will go back up. Hold on to what you've got now though.
> I would rather have some pgm's laying around than stocks at the moment.
> 
> Mark



You might be right. I am certainly selling NO PGM's right now. I find it a good time to collect cats, since there is NO market driving the price high right now.

However, to stockpile, you HAVE to have enough liquid assets to survive. But stockpiling is what I am doing myself right now.

Jim.


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## Oz (Nov 21, 2008)

If you have cash to invest in PGMs that you can do without for a minimum of 2 years then it may pay off. I believe that silver will be a far higher return and gold following next in a shorter time frame than platinum group metals. The platinum group metals are industrial metals the same as silver and gold but they lack the monetary status of many centuries that Au and Ag have. As the dollar in particular and other currencies in general will race to the bottom of value they will hold theirs.


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## Rag and Bone (Nov 21, 2008)

The latest talk is possible deflation in the U.S. How does this affect metals?


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## qst42know (Nov 21, 2008)

If fuel cell vehicles take off the prices of PGMs will also. I think far more catalysts would be required per vehicle. In which case there may not be enough to go around.


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## Oz (Nov 22, 2008)

Rag,

We are indeed experiencing a deflation period. From October 7th 2007 to October 7th 2008, the value of stocks worldwide has fallen 41%, or $25.9 trillion. Now that’s deflation! However this is paper asset deflation as stocks have become overvalued in betting instead of price to earnings. This has caused real assets to be dragged down with them. Most paper instruments are denominated in dollars as it is the worlds reserve currency, so all these bad bets in the markets and margin calls need to be satisfied with dollars creating a temporary strong demand for the dollar despite its poor condition. Real assets are also having to be sold to cover cash debts gold being one of the most liquid. 

When you ask about metals I assume you mean precious metals. My opinion is that PMs with a predominantly industrial value will suffer in price such as Pt, Pd, and Rh as their main use globally is auto catalyst (80%) but gold and silver have thousands of years history as real money. Gold and silver are the anti-dollar, and make no mistake the dollar has lost great real value due to the huge money creation occurring in the bailouts. When the stock market selling stops and CDS and CDO have unwound the dollar will adjust down significantly lower than it is today boosting gold and silver as the reciprocal value. Other PMs will go up as well but they will take longer until industry demand picks up again. 

This is as simple and condensed as I can put it. Of course, this is just one mans opinion.


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## arthur kierski (Nov 22, 2008)

oz, i think your explanation (opinion) perfect----your insights are brilliant-----


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## Harold_V (Nov 22, 2008)

arthur kierski said:


> oz, i think your explanation (opinion) perfect----your insights are brilliant-----


Not only brilliant, but proven with time. 

An ounce of gold still weighs 480 grains, near as I can tell. 

It used to cost $20.67 for one of those ounces. 

Today?

Need I say more?

Harold


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## butcher (Nov 22, 2008)

$20.67 OZ Gold and what was price of bread, today about $740 Oz and bread prices?


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## Oz (Nov 22, 2008)

I’m glad someone found value in it. The thing many do not see is there have been very few times in history that gold has increased or decreased in value, it is the value of paper currencies that change in relation to gold. 

For Butcher’s question on bread I offer perhaps a better comparison.
If you had $100 in 1776 and compared its purchasing value of a basket of common staples in the US to other years…
In 1913 you would need $113.48 to buy the same goods (the year the Federal Reserve as a private bank was given the right to issue money)
In 1950 you would need $284.63
In 1975 you would need $636.41
In 2000 you would need $2,035.46
In 2007 you would need $2,450.85
Note that $100 is only 4% of $2,450 meaning that the dollar has lost 96% of its value since the founding of this country. Almost all of it after getting the Federal Reserve in 1913.


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## markqf1 (Nov 23, 2008)

Good point.
Also, lets not forget, there was a time when bread was actually used as currency.
Let's hope that we don't see that again.  

Mark


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## Platdigger (Nov 24, 2008)

Platinum price trumps Rhodium once again......
For how long? One day? One week?......one hour?
Randy


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## Lou (Nov 24, 2008)

Getting to the point that rhodium is not worth the effort. Worthwhile (if one has the money) to accumulate. This is the time to save, years later, one will be very, very wealthy.

Good to see what silver is doing. I need to pick up some more silver. Rhodium and platinum will be good buys soon.


Lou


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## Husker (Nov 25, 2008)

Rhodium died (again). I find it hard to believe that anyone at all is selling at this price. I would imagine the price is not really actual, and no one is really selling anything at this moment.


Jim.


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## markqf1 (Dec 4, 2008)

I read a couple of days ago that pres. elect Obama intends to spend 30k on a rh ring for his wife.
At todays price of rh, it must be a huge ring.  

Mark


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## Husker (Dec 12, 2008)

markqf1 said:


> I read a couple of days ago that pres. elect Obama intends to spend 30k on a rh ring for his wife.
> At todays price of rh, it must be a huge ring.
> 
> Mark



Keep in mind, the 300% to 900% mark up on jewelry.

Here is a slightly different pic. Gold above Platinum. Not sure how long it will last, but it "could" last a LONG time. Wonder if (when) both platinum and rhodium will drop below gold at the same time in the near future.

Jim.


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## markqf1 (Dec 16, 2008)

Could be today.

Mark


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