# Neutralizing Acid



## cfoster78

I have a question for the experts here. I have read up as much as I can on the process of gold extraction (including Hoke), and have a degree in Chemical Engineering, so I feel as though I am relatively informed about this process. However, upon attempting it, I have run into a small problem that I am needing assistance on. After dissolving the gold into AR and neutralizing the nitric acid with urea, I began adding the SMB. However, since the urea does not neutralize the HCl in the AR, I end up adding LOTS of SMB which ends up neutralizing the HCL and I can't seem to get the gold to precipitate out. Am I missing a step in the process by not neutralizing the HCl prior to attempting to precipitate the gold, or do I just keep on adding SMB until all of the HCL is neutralized and then continue adding it after neutralization occurs in order to get the gold to precipitate?

Any insight into how I should proceed would be greatly appreciated.


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## FrugalRefiner

cfoster78 said:


> I have a question for the experts here. I have read up as much as I can on the process of gold extraction (including Hoke), and have a degree in Chemical Engineering, so I feel as though I am relatively informed about this process. However, upon attempting it, I have run into a small problem that I am needing assistance on. After dissolving the gold into AR and neutralizing the nitric acid with urea, I began adding the SMB. However, since the urea does not neutralize the HCl in the AR, I end up adding LOTS of SMB which ends up neutralizing the HCL and I can't seem to get the gold to precipitate out. Am I missing a step in the process by not neutralizing the HCl prior to attempting to precipitate the gold, or do I just keep on adding SMB until all of the HCL is neutralized and then continue adding it after neutralization occurs in order to get the gold to precipitate?
> 
> Any insight into how I should proceed would be greatly appreciated.


My suggestion would be to continue studying. From what you've written, we can see you haven't really "read up as much as [you] can". 

You do not neutralize nitric acid with urea. Use it on your garden, but keep it out of your recovery and refining processes.

Excess HCl does not interfere with the precipitation of gold with SMB.

It may take more than a day to assimilate all the information on this forum.

Dave


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## solar_plasma

What were your ratios of gold/HCl/HNO3? How clean has the gold been, did you remove basemetals first?

For the future (as Dave already said): Using urea is outdated. Just use as much HNO3 as absolutely needed, use a gold button to use up excess nitric or drive off NOx by using sulfamic acid...well, or deNOx by vaporising to syrup/adding HCl/vaporising to syrup/..., if you feel bored. All those processes are described on this forum.

There are some typical beginner's mistakes that can cause a failing precipitation:
excess oxidizer (here HNO3) and no clue how to remove properly or avoid it
failed to remove basemetals first (yellowish solution is a good sign)
too much liquid and too small amount gold in it (few and small particles are coagulating badly)
presence of large amounts of reducers like tin cations and/or organics (gold forms colloids or gets bound to complexes(?))
there is no gold in solution (failed to test / failed to dissolve completely / gold is cemented back in the solids / there is just no gold in the material)

Since urea forms critical products (try a search on the forum), I will leave it to the experienced people and the chemists here to advise how to solve your problem.


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## cfoster78

FrugalRefiner - Thank you for being as condescending as you were unhelpful. I thought this portion of the forum was to ask questions for people who need help. I didn't realize it is actually the place to go to have someone make gross generalizations about people and chastise them for not already knowing how to do everthing exactly properly. You may think I haven't read about as much as I can find about this process, however you would be incorrect. I have run across dozens of different "methods" for extracting gold - some of which I'm sure are just people guessing and consequently don't work. However, the method I used was the one I came across most often. If that is an antiquated process, that's fine - and that's why I came here to try to get help - because I don't know everything and am willing to admit it and as for help. If you are unknowledgable about the process or simply unwilling to help, that's fine, just tell me. However, if that is the case, I'm not sure why you're posting on the portion of this forum that is specifically for people asking questions because they are having issues...

solar_plasma - Thank you for actually trying to help me with this issue. As I stated to Frugal, I utilized the urea because it was the method I ran across most often in my research. Some people called for the use of zinc, magnesium, hydrogen sulfide, sulfur dioxide, ferrous sulfate, SMB, etc. I'm not sure what the best method is, but like I said, the one I came across most frequently was make a 3:1 ratio of HCl to HNO3 of AR, dissolve the gold with it, add urea to neutralize the HNO3 (which it does do, but if that is not necessary or an old method of doing so, I'm open to suggestions), then add the SMB to precipitate the gold. I added an additional step in there of first soaking the items in straight nitric acid to disolve out the copper and other trace metals and draining that fluid off to get rid of the majority of the trace metals. I'm not sure if that was a good idea or not, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to try as an experiment. Everything seemed to be going fine until I got to the SMB addition. I kept adding more and more SMB and it would fizzle and react. After I had added about 4 tablespoons (into about 100-200 ml of AR/gold solution) and it kept fizzling and never dropped out any gold, I figured I was probably doing something wrong. I searched and searched and could not find anything stating what I was doing wrong, but I didn't turn anything up in my research - hence the reason I came here to ask the experts. It made sense to me that the SMB was reacting with the HCl as the reaction between those components is:

Na2S2O5 + 2 HCl → 2 NaCl + H2O + 2 SO2

That is why I thought I may have to neutralize the HCl first - to keep the SMB from reacting with the HCl instead of precipitating the gold. Am I just missing something in my research/experimenting, or do I maybe just need to let the reacted SMB/AR solution sit longer to drop the gold out?

P.S. - I know this is not the smartest thing in the world to do, but I went ahead and added a SMALL amount of ammonia to the AR solution in order to lower the pH after I added the SMB which just reacted with the HCl. I know this could potentially create hazardous biproducts (silver azide, ammonium nitrate, etc.), but I just wanted to see if it would help with the gold precipitation. It actually worked great - gold fell out of the solution almost immediately. I would continue with this process if it were not dangerous. However, since it is, that is one of the reasons I wanted to come on here and see what I was doing wrong so I could proceed with my gold collection without creating hazardous materials...


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## solar_plasma

Okay, you should stop right now and only ask, how you have to treat this mess, whithout being injured - and hope, someone will help you!

*period*

You obviously feel offended, but you don't have to. Dave is absolutely right and has given you the correct advice,, if you stay here long enough, you will find out, that he is a capacity on refining, just as there are a lot of capacities concentrated in this forum.

Take some facts as given, until you are able to verify them yourself: This forum is the one and only open source in the whole of the internet, that actually owns correct knowledge about refining, which is up to date. Forget what you have read anywhere on the net! Find the Guided Tour on the forum and read!


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## solar_plasma

I am not the right person to tell you what to do now, BUT if you do the wrong thing right now, your acids will be capable of exploding right into your face without any visible reason. You do not have any clue, what you have produced.


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## Pantherlikher

Greetings cfoster78...

You may think FrugalRefiner maybe a tad harsh?... Just wait untill the rest of the "experts" have a say.
FrugalRefiner is just trying to instill the dangerous messes you are stepping into. Urea is fully covered here in the forum if you spend time reading here instead of "experimenting".
Even in Hoke's book it states to use as little nitric acid as you can. Does it mention anywhere about Urea neutralizeing HCL?
Everything I've read and learned, it doesn't neutralize HCL let alone a need to neutralize HCL in the first place.

I have noticed alot of people with chemical backgrounds having a tough time taking advice from anyone but even with your degree in Chemical Engineering,
you have much to learn about how to recover and refine PMs,(Precious Metals).
FrugalRefiner's response is more then justified and he is being kind in freely taking the time to answer your novice questions. Novice maybe not in the chemical background but n0vice in the field of recovery and refinning of PMs.

First and formost, what material are you trying to get anything from? And why are you even not attempting any of the "experiments" in Hoke's book?
It's the foundation for everything in this field.
After properly reading and understanding Hoke's teachings, read the welcome posts and it will guide you into the depths of this forum and help you answer your own questions.
Then, search the forum with the Google search on what material you have and how to process .

It appears you may have looked at her book but then went to the "Youtube will hurt you" videos and thought you're more then qualified to handle what you are trying to do. Nope...sorry but you need to understand the whole process from start to finish. Amonia added? Hmm...why? What does it actually do in AR?
The forum covers Amonia and it's importance. Covers what Urea does and why it's not used. As well as why you can't get any gold or anything to drop from your chemical mess.
Even I can see a problem when you stated your concerns with Silver azide, oxide maybe? Ammonia nitrate? Huh you be a goodt chemist. Read what you write as little spelling mistakes can be very costly to your health if you fail to take the time to be exact with any little details in this field.

Sorry you don't get spoon fed what you think you are entitled to. We all and that is "ALL" of us are entitled to Nothing. Nor are we obligated to do anything.
How's that for condescending?

Good luck and hopefully you will take this with a grain or 2 of sodium chloride and heed advise and learn the right way to be happy in learning PMs and how to see that nice pot ole gold at the end of the rainbow.

B.S.
...All the knowledge in the world is useless if one not follows those before...


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## niteliteone

cfoster78 said:


> (snip)
> P.S. - *I know this is not the smartest thing in the world to do, but I went ahead and added a SMALL amount of ammonia to the AR solution* in order to lower the pH after I added the SMB which just reacted with the HCl. I know this could potentially create hazardous biproducts (silver azide, ammonium nitrate, etc.), but I just wanted to see if it would help with the gold precipitation. It actually worked great - gold fell out of the solution almost immediately. I would continue with this process if it were not dangerous. However, since it is, that is one of the reasons I wanted to come on here and see what I was doing wrong so I could proceed with my gold collection without creating hazardous materials...


I sure hope you have your life insurance paid up in full as You could possible now have a bomb looking for a reason to go Boom.
NEVER add any chemicals together without knowing what CAN happen when you do.
Before you added the Ammonia to the mix you could have just added a copper bar and dropped all the PM's out of solution and started again.
Now I don't know how to solve your problem, so don't do anything without "Specific" instructions on how to fix this.

We NEED details of exactly what is in solution. ie. source of PM's and ALL chemicals along with all steps to get you to this point.


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## cfoster78

solar - I am not offended. It is actually very hard to insult me. I was just very confused about his response (and more so the manner in which he responded more so than the actual content). I have been researching this as much as I possibly can from a variety of sources. I have no idea which ones are good and which are bad. Consequently I have seen a variety of different methods - some of which I'm sure work, and some I'm sure don't. However, since I don't know enough about this particular process to know which ones will work and which don't, I figured I'd come on here in order to get help in determining the best method to utilize.

The only problem that I had with the response I got from Frugal was that it was obvious that he assumed I had not done my due diligence in trying to determine the correct answer myself prior to coming here for help. I am a scientist by profession as well as by mindset and I enjoy trying to figure problems out myself. I only ask after I have researched everything I possibly can and still can't seem to find an answer or get something to work. I'm not someone who looks for the easy way out and just asks people to tell me how to do things. I've been researching this process for better than a month, and have been experimenting by trial and error for about the past 3 weeks. While I do realize this is not an enormous amount of time, I have been trying to resolve this problem myself and have only decided to come ask for assistance because all I am doing is wasting money and materials by performing these trial and error techniques that are not working. I am safety conscious and have enough chemistry background with my degree in chemical engineering as well as real world experience to not do anything that is going to hurt myself or others.

I am basically just trying to get a little help on this topic as I have exhausted all of the resources I know of to get the answer on my own and I'd prefer not to waste any more materials trying to figure it out via trial and error. If this forum is not the appropriate place to ask questions, I apologize and would appreciate if you could directy me to a place that is appropriate for that purpose if you know of one. I was just hoping someone on here could let me know if I am making some sort of mistake in my processing based on the steps I listed out that I am taking in order to attempt to get it to work.


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## solar_plasma

> ammonia to the AR solution



What colour does your precipitated "gold" have? try a forum search on gold / ammonium / danger ....


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## cfoster78

I make a simple comment about someone being condescending about me asking for help, and this is the response I get. Interesting...

I understand the dangers of the use of ammonia in this solution, which is why I stated I used a SMALL amount of ammonia in a small amount of the AR solution. I filtered the gold out, washed the gold thoroughly, and neutralized, diluted, and disposed of the remaining liquid in order to prevent a hazardous condition. Like I said, I know it can create dangerous biproducts which is why I limited the amount I produced and disposed of it immediately following the test. It is not something I am planning on doing long term, I was simply attempting to see if I were able to neutralize the acid with a material which did not contain any metal element if it would precipitate the gold given the SMB had already been added. It did, but since it can create dangerous biproducts I was not going to utilize that method on a large scale - hence the reason I came here for advise. 

For those that are trying to help and asking questions about my process - thank you for taking the time to assist, and I will do my best to answer those questions. The gold I had precipitate came out a muddy orange color. I am utilizing electronic components (primarily from cell phones as I found a large quantity of old ones that were cheap). That (along with the SMB, AR and urea) is the only thing I have in my solution typically (except the times I tested other things, but I didn't plan on using them long term). I'm not looking to do this on a large scale or make money from it - doing chemistry experiments is just a hobby of mine and this seemed like an interesting one to undertake.

I understand the dangers of what I was mixing and new the potential biproducts. This is why I only made a small amount and disposed of it properly afterwards. I know enough about chemicals to know not to mix things when I don't have an idea of what the result may be. I thought about adding a copper bar (or zinc) in order to precipitate out the gold, but I figured it may have the same issue as the SMB had in that it would have to react with the HCl to neutralize the AR before it would precipitate anything out. I may be wrong about that, but since the SMB seemed to have that problem, I figured utilizing any metal replacement might as well.

To Pantherlikher - the urea idea was not from Hoke's book. That was simply a method I saw during my research from other books/websites that came up often. I know it does not neutralize HCl, it only neutralizes HNO3. That is why I came on there, to find out if I needed to neutralize the HCl prior to SMB addition since the SMB seemed to only react with the HCl if the HCl was not neutralized. Secondly, I know I have much to learn about PM recovery - that is why I am asking the questions and why I have been researching. I never claimed to know everything about it. If I did, I would not need to ask the questions. And yes, FrugalRefiner has every right to say whatever he'd like to say (just as anyone does). I was simply asking for help though, and did not see the need to answer in the way he did. If someone doesn't want to help, they obviously don't have too. I was just asking that he tell me that as opposed to jumping on me for not researching the topic (which I have done). I am also attempting several experiments. I only mentioned the ammonia one because that is the only one that has worked to this point. As for the going to Youtube comment, as I have stated, I knew what I was doing, which is why I took all of the precausions necessary to ensure safety (I have a fume hood with ballistic glass and only was using a very small amount of anything that would have created hazardous chemicals so if something went wrong it would not blow out my setup). As for the "problems" you saw - I actually did mean silver azide, not oxide. Silver azide can be obtained by crystallization from aqueous ammonia solution obtainable by double decomposition of silver nitrate and sodium azide in aqueous ammonia solution. And if you read my post, I actually said ammonium nitrate, not ammonia nitrate. So yes, I guess I "be a good chemist". Again, I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from. Although, if you are going to be hostile and make fun of me, it would probably be better if you were doing so about actual errors I have made. Neither of your examples fall into that category.

As I stated, I'm not looking to start a fight, not saying I know everything, etc. I simply am asking for help concerning a process that I have researched and attempted extensively but am having some problems with. I am more than happy to explain everything I have done, what materials I have used, etc. if someone is actually willing to help. I am not looking for people to berate me for asking a simple question. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone as that was not my intention. I was simply looking for help - and not looking for people to attempt to make personal attacks towards me for asking for said help.


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## Pantherlikher

So..yet again like others before you, you fail to see the problem.
It's not just an easy answer which you want. Can't happen. You have not even touched the surface of this forum as a resource so don't go there.

Read and learn what you are doing please before that Amonium nitrate makes another statistic.
Like everyone else, you justify your qualifications and defend your abilities instead of stepping back and looking at all of our answers to your inquest.

For starters, what did you start with and what steps you did to come to the conclusion that you are at a loss for what to do now? This will help us help you.

B.S.
...It is the humbled one who admits unknowing and begins to learn...


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## solar_plasma

Nobody wants to offend you, they actually tried to help, but you are locked in your (wrong) beliefs and you are at this point not accessable to any help. 

You know, I am a chemistry teacher. I had mastered to precipitate and melt some dirty pc gold and dissolve some silver platings (half of that silver I had vaporized, when I tried to melt it), before I came here. Further I am active in a hazmat team, even a medium leader. So, pretty much like you I came here and believed, that I was pretty well prepared and I believed I could find the last 10% of knowledge I was missing........*loooong breath*.......*rhethorical pause*........in a few days I found out, I was missing 90%..........after about a little year now, I know, I was missing 99%! Since I read every day since I came here, I still miss 80%._ Edit: 80% only of what I am interested in and what I need for what I want to do in refining_

So, calm down. Lean back. Do as they told you. And have a nice time reading.


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## Pantherlikher

Um... I nor anyone here tries to make personal attacks on anyone...against forum policy. As for silver azide, As I am no chemist, have never heard it exist. And have yet to find mention of it here in the forum. silver oxide yes.

You still have yet to let us help you. Step by step. You said some phone boards. great start. Did you depopulate? Did you remove solder? Did you use AP for other base metals? Nitric is a tad expensive and will..?.. make silver nitrate. Did you use that solution to add to HCL for the AR? You also mentioned reusing this AR from something else? 

Being a chemist, why would you filter gold out of solution when gold is heavier and settles? Why would you not research this forum as you say you have exhausted every resource? Honest questions from a non chemist.

You keep saying you know enough to experiment yet you keep proving you have not read anything in the forum here. You do not need to experiment as it's already been done here in the forum with reproduceable results.

Lastly...most important question requiring an answer....
What exactly did you do with the solution to "dispose" of it?...

B.S.


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## solar_plasma

cfoster78, your description, your conclusions and your methods .....I really don't know where to start.....begin at zero, believe me! :roll: You know...something... about chemistry and it will help you to learn easily from this forum, but read first for some weeks, before you even look at your chemicals again.


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## cfoster78

Thank you for the most recent responses. I did not realize you needed additional details in order to be able to determine what the issues are. I am more than happy to go through what I did step by step in order to give you a complete understanding of the process I used and hopefully be able to help me determine where I went wrong. And Panther - if you were not attacking, I'm sorry, I guess I just took it wrong. Calling out errors I typed (although they weren't actually errors) and saying "huh, you be a good chemist" seemed like you were trying to put me down. If not, I apologize for assuming that. As to your questions, silver azide is an compound that is explosive and unstable. It can be detonated by mechanical shock or an increase in temperature. Kind of like nitrogen triiodide, but stronger. As for disposal, I diluted the ammonium nitrate (as it is not harmful in solution - and is even used primarily as fertilizer), and converted the silver azide back to silver oxide, and with sodium hydroxide and glucose reduced the silver back to its metallic form and filtered it out of solution prior to disposal. The acids I of course neutralized prior to disposal as well. Also, I understand gold is heavy and will sink to the bottom of the solution, but getting that last bit at the bottom out is difficult for me to do just by decanting it, so I just pass it through a filter. It isn't too much of a hassle and it prevents me from accidentally pouring out any of the gold.

Now, for the process I initially tried using to get the gold, the steps I took were as follows:

I started with electronic circuit boards, pins, etc. from old cell phones. I cut out only the portions that contained gold so as to not have a lot of excess volume taken up by components that didn't have any gold on them. I did not however take off the solder, or anything else from the pieces I used. Consequently there would be some contamination of copper, lead, possibly silver, and any other components that would be on the boards along with the gold. Like I said, the only reason I cut out just the portions that contained the gold was so that I wasn't just throwing a bunch of metal and plastic in the solution that didn't have any gold on it. I did not however pick off any contaminants as I figured they would not precipitate out with the gold if I followed the correct process so it seemed it would be an unnecessary time consuming ordeal. I then placed all of the components into straight 70% nitric acid. I did this in order to disolve out the majority of the trace metals but not the gold (as gold only dissolves a VERY small amount in nitric acid). I discarded that liquid and then placed all of the components into HCl and began adding HNO3. I actually did try to use as little HNO3 as possible (as opposed to the standard 3:1 ratio for AR), but I'm sure that I probably put in a little more than was actually needed just to ensure I didn't put too little in and not be able to dissolve all of the gold. I let that sit and dissolve for 2 days. At that point I added the urea (although now I understand that step may be unnecessary) until it stopped reacting which told me the nitric acid had been neutralized. I then added the SMB. I only started with about 100-200 ml of the AR/gold solution, and after 4 tablespoons of SMB, it was still reacting violently (fizzing/bubbling) every time I put more SMB in, and no gold was dropping out. Since SMB reacts with HCl, I figured that maybe the HCl needed to be neutralized prior to the addition of the SMB. That's why I tried the neutralization of HCl with the small amount of ammonia just to see if it would assist in the gold precipitation, and it did. Again though, it is not a process I would do on a larger scale since adding ammonia can creat dangerous biproducts. It was simply an experiment to see if the neutralization of the HCl made a difference. 

So my question would be, when you add SMB to the AR solution, does it normally take a lot of SMB to precipitate the gold out, and does it normally fizz and bubble a lot when you put it into the AR solution? If it does, maybe I just didn't add enough or didn't give it enough time to react completely. If it doesn't, I figure I may be doing something wrong. I have read you should only need to add an amount of SMB that is equivalent to the ammount of gold you precipitate. Based on my reaction, I would have needed to add a lot more SMB than the amount of gold recovered as all of the SMB was being used up reacting with the HCl. 

And solar - I completely agree with you that I don't know much about PM recovery. That is why I came on here to ask questions about certain portions of the process so I can get a better understanding of it. I've been reading up about it, but I can't seem to find answers to specific questions that I have about the process that I was hoping I could get answers to here. While I know about chemistry in general - trust me - I fully understand that I don't know a lot about this particular process, which is why I was asking about it.

Thanks for your help.


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## niteliteone

Below is a picture of some cell phone board I have. They have been cleaned of most irony metals.
Is this what you put into your AR solution that you are asking about ???

I hope not, as they are Not ready for that yet. They still need to be depopulated to remove all the MLCC's and IC's which go to other processes to recover their values. Then they still need to go into an HCl soak to remove lead.

If you didn't do these steps first and just put everything into AR then you have NO gold in solution if you had a single piece of base metal that didn't fully dissolve.

We need to see step by step exactly what you have done so far. It would also be good to see pictures of what went into the AR and what came out of the AR.

edited spelling.


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## cfoster78

I'm sorry niteliteone, I did forget to mention that. I did take off all of the electronic components such as processors, capacitors, resistors, etc. I just did not take off the excess solder and things like that. I did soak it in a nitric acid solution to remove unwanted metal, but not hydrochloric since pretty much all of the contaminant metals will dissolve in HNO3, but not all will dissolve in HCl (copper doesn't dissolve in HCl, lead does but very slowly, etc.) That's the reason I used a nitric acid solution to remove the unwanted metals as opposed hydrochloric acid. I unfortunately do not have any pictures of the solution however since it is the same solution I was experimenting with and have since disposed of it. I was waiting on making another solution until I figured out what I did wrong with the first one.


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## solar_plasma

It's only fizzing, if you have excess nitric. If you have an excess, you process has been bad. You believe, you just need to ask a question, but the answer will only lead you to new questions. Questions, that you would easily have been able to answer yourself,if you would start reading. You could have searched for the right amount of smb per gramm of gold. You would have read, that an excess of smb could drive out some NOx maybe, but excess smb will precipitate copper as well (so, I can hardly believe your gold is something like orange, or this orange thing isn't gold), excess of smb will give a false positive stannous test and excess smb is waste of chemicals.

I love the high standards of this forum. If you don't want to learn to do things right, you will not get lucky here. Well yeah, you said this is why you ask. You can't ask all detailed BASICS without filling books with the answers! You will need to read them, as all of us have to.


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## cfoster78

Solar - I'm just asking one question. I'm not trying to get people to give me an detailed run down of the entire process. I neutralized the nitric acid with urea. I know you say that is an antiquated process of refining, but regardless, doing so means that I don't have excess nitric acid - and yet I still get the fizzing when I add the SMB. This seems to make sense since the reaction of SMB and HCl is:

Na2S2O5 + 2 HCl → 2 NaCl + H2O + 2 SO2

The SO2 is a gas and would account for the fizzing. Are you telling me though that when you add SMB to your AR, it doesn't fizz?


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## solar_plasma

> when you add SMB to your AR, it doesn't fizz?



very very seldom...in fact only once


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## cfoster78

Okay. I'm wondering if maybe when I ordered the SMB if maybe they sent me the wrong mateial or something because the material I have reacts violently with HCl. Maybe they sent me sodium metabisulfate instead of sodium metabisulfite or something...


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## solar_plasma

> this seems to make sense since the reaction of SMB and HCl is:
> 
> Na2S2O5 + 2 HCl → 2 NaCl + H2O + 2 SO2





Here is one right equation (and will also ease your last wondering):

lazersteve (http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=895&p=10627#p10627):



> via SMB in water:
> 
> Na2SO3 + H2O = 2NaHSO3
> 
> 3NaHSO3 + 2AuCl3 + 3H2O = 3NaHSO4 + 6 HCl + 2Au
> Sodium Meta Bisulfite becomes Sodium Meta Bisulfate (this is why bisulfate won't precipitate gold)




So,... I am curious.... engineer in chemistry....in which country did you say you've made your degree?


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## Anonymous

Mr Foster- 

Take the advice you've been given here but with one piece added please. Try a little humility as well. These guys know an awful lot about what they are talking about. If you assume that you know nothing and are like a blank piece of paper and act like that then you'll get lots of freely given help from everyone here.

Like a few others I'm a little worried that a guy with a chemistry degree would add ammonia to this solution just to see what happened. Trust me on this sir. Go back to the beginning and get the basics right because you don't appear to have done so.

I knew very little when I came here, and the little I did know was wildly wrong so I read, learned, and took my lumps from the pros here. Eventually I got the gold thing nailed on. The fun starts when you can make mistakes and look at the mess and say " Arrghh I KNOW what I did there and here's how to fix it."

Start with all this again mate. You'll love it I promise.

Jon


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## niteliteone

If memory serves me correctly, it would take over a pound of Urea to neutralize an excess of 50ml of nitric from your AR solution.
Not a good choice in my opinion.

It takes 0.79ml nitric and 3.27ml HCl acid to dissolve 1 gram of gold.
I noticed you made your AR using the old formula of 3:1 (HCl : Nitric) so it will be assumed you have way too much nitric in your solution. 
Their are 3 ways to solve this. 
1. Is by adding more gold to use up the excess nitric. (Hokes book and search forum)
2. evaporate to remove excess nitric (Hokes book and search forum)
3. add copper to cement all values and re-refine the resulting powders. (search forum)

Here we teach to cover your material with HCL and then make small additions of nitric waiting for the reaction to complete before each subsequent addition, until all gold is dissolved.

How much solution do you still have that needs to be processed ???

Some corrections on your above statements.
HCl DOES dissolve copper. (search forum for AP process)
SMB has only fizzed on me when I had an excess of nitric in my solution, otherwise it doesn't.


----------



## goldsilverpro

You actually want the SMB to react with the HCl, in order to produce the SO2 that is needed to precipitate the gold. If you had only HAuCl4 and HCl in the solution, the gold would drop very quickly and efficiently with the SMB. 

What fouls this up is when an oxidizing agent (HNO3, in this case) is also present. It seems obvious to me that you still have a lot of free HNO3 in the solution. You first leached with HNO3 (which is good) to eliminate the copper and, if you didn't rinse the HNO3 out of the residue before using AR, that would be part of the problem. Then, you used a 3/1 AR mix. Combined with about 4 to 5ml of HCl, it only takes about .8 - 1ml of nitric to dissolve 1g of gold. I would guess that you exceeded that amount. If you do have a HNO3 excess after dissolving the gold, it won't precipitate any gold until it all has been destroyed by reaction with the SMB. Actually, it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. Does it not precipitate because the SMB much first react with the free nitric or, does it precipitate and then immediately redissolve due to the presence of both HCl and HNO3 (aqua regia). Theoretically, it takes about 1.5g of SMB to eliminate 1ml of free nitric acid. This only works for small amounts of free nitric. When it takes a large amount of excess SMB to react with a large excess of free HNO3, you can start having solubility problems with the by-products.

Here's how you should have used the AR. First cover the gold foils with conc. HCL. Use a little more than you'll need. Heat the HCl fairly hot but don't boil. Add HNO3 in small increments. Allow it to react. When the reaction slows down, add another small increment. When a small addition produces no reaction, stop adding. At this point, if you had an excess of HCl to start with, all the gold should be dissolved.

In the 40 some years that I refined professionally, I tried using urea once or twice but didn't have much success. The trick is to only use enough nitric to barely dissolve all of the gold. If, with a heavy hand, you have added too much HNO3, you should eliminate it by using the standard AR evaporation process that has been well covered on the forum. Another option is to use sulfamic acid (search), which destroys the nitric and produces nitrous oxide and sulfuric acid. The nitrous (laughing gas) goes off as a gas and the sulfuric doesn't interfere with the SMB precipitation.

I don't know where you stand now. You keep telling us about having done new things to the solution each time you post. It sounds like you were processing plated material. If so, most gold plating is worth in the range of $.05 to $.50 per square inch. If you don't have much gold value in your mess, I would forget about it, start a new batch, and do it right. Keep this batch and worry about it later on, when you know more.


----------



## g_axelsson

A couple of quick notes in random order as I thought of it....

1. I strongly suggest that you take the guided tour of the forum, look at the signature of Lazer Steve. Follow every link and read the topics they cover. That will show you a lot of the processes we recommend here on the forum.

2. How much material did you start with? Maybe you did precipitate your gold but it was so little you couldn't see it.

3. How do you know you have gold in solution? Look up testing with stannous chloride and come out of the dark.

4. How do you know the stuff you got after adding ammonia to the AR is gold? Have you tested it or melted it? To me it sounds more like iron hydroxide. From a dirty solution as yours I would suspect a very black precipitate of gold.

5. The reaction between HCl and SMB that you wrote down creates SO2. That is the reactant that precipitate gold. You would have known it if you had read Hoke or the forum.

6. You claim to be a chemical engineer but makes a rookie mistake as "added a SMALL amount of ammonia to the AR solution in order to lower the pH". Ammonia would increase the pH. Maybe it was a honest mistake but it doesn't bring credibility to your other claims. We get a lot of newbies here, claiming a lot but soon the truth is revealed. As one of the moderators have in his signature "You are what you write!"

7. When digesting base metals (or silver) dilute it to half strength, it works better if it isn't concentrated.

8. There is no silver nitrate in AR solution, it will form a precipitate of silver chloride and only trace amounts will be left in solution.

9. From a gold chloride solution without excess oxidizers a gram of SMB precipitates circa a gram of gold.

10. What is the color of your AR? If it was pure gold chloride it would be yellow or orange. With some copper in it you would have pale neon green.

11. Was there any undissolved metals left? It would cement gold and rob the AR of any gold in solution.

12. Have you tested your AR yet? Why not, I wrote it a couple of paragraphs above. It's important to test so you know where the gold is. So important that I write it twice!

Oh, almost forgot, welcome to the forum. You will see that the expertise here is second to none on the internet. Be humble and you will see it pays out in the end.... often with a small golden button. 8) 

Göran


----------



## g_axelsson

solar_plasma said:


> when you add SMB to your AR, it doesn't fizz?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> very very seldom...in fact only once
Click to expand...

For me it is the opposite, it almost always fizzes when I add SMB to my gold chloride. I have found it is easier to drop gold from a solution with quite a lot of HCl.

The one time I had problem to get a reaction was when I had gold chloride dissolved in water. It refused to drop until I added a bit of HCl. Then it precipitated instantly.

Having too much HCl isn't good either, then the SMB turns into gas too fast and leaves as SO2 bubbles without reducing the gold chloride to elementary gold.

Look at this picture, you can see how bubbles moves up through the gold chloride and making brown tracks until the SO2 runs out. I add SMB as a saturated water solution. I really liked how this precipitated. 8) 


Göran


----------



## solar_plasma

@göran

I have to try this tomorrow. I have always lots of HCl and it never fizzed.....- only once, when I had about 3 ml excess nitric in 250 ml HCl (can't remember concentration). First it fizzed, then additional smb didn't fizz. 


...maybe concentration or temperature make the difference? I use mostly 25% HCl, mostly cold and often a bit more dilluted when I precipitate


----------



## solar_plasma

goldsilverpro:


> I don't know where you stand now. You keep telling us about having done new things to the solution each time you post. It sounds like you were processing plated material. If so, most gold plating is worth in the range of $.05 to $.50 per square inch. If you don't have much gold value in your mess, I would forget about it, start a new batch, and do it right. Keep this batch and worry about it later on, when you know more.




Since he has urea in his AR, how is that solution treated safely? Have I understood right, that dried solids from it, are a problem?

Since he has ammonia in his AR, given it is pregnant with gold, have I understood right, that is it safe only as long as the solution is under pH7? And if so, shouldn't the gold be cemented out, before the solution is treated as waste?


----------



## g_axelsson

I haven't tested exactly where the limit is between fizz and no fizz concentration wise, but some water added turns off the fizzing to manageable amount. It could also be depending on other dissolved gases and minerals, I use tap water to everything. For example, I live in a place without chloride in the tap water, I can mix it with silver nitrate without slightest clouding. :mrgreen: 

Göran


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## Anonymous

Goran (sorry please tell me the key stroke to set the O properly?) that's a very lucky place to be in many ways.

I daren't use tap water in the UK if I'm doing anything with Nitric or silver at all mate.


----------



## Pantherlikher

That was the reason for my asking how he disposed of the solution. Neutrilized? how? It's well writen in the forum as to how which drops anything and just about everything in solution giving you Salt water and solids.

You may have tossed the baby out with the bath water as I've heard described.
A test would have told you exactly where your gold was.

A good analyticle chemist would have the proper procedures and tests required to make sure the results were correct and have an understanding of what happened. To see if reality is exactly as formulated.

For instance what does Nitric acid dissolve? And what does it not dissolve and why?

B.S.
...most times humility is very hard to swallow but is worth the price to be humbled enough to follow guidance...


----------



## solar_plasma

What makes me wonder is, ...the fizzing stopped right after about 3g smb (well I always say smb, but I use potassium MB)

I have to try, if the fizzing appears in a HCl, which is too dilluted for fizzing, if there is nitric in it...


----------



## solar_plasma

(sorry please tell me the key stroke to set the O properly?)

type:
[alt] 148

the numbers have to be typed on the number block 

http://www.irongeek.com/alt-numpad-ascii-key-combos-and-chart.html


----------



## Anonymous

Cheers Göran (Akk sorry cheers plasma!)

Appreciate it. Sorry for the hijack guys. Thread back on track.

Jon


----------



## cfoster78

Pantherlikher said:


> That was the reason for my asking how he disposed of the solution. Neutrilized? how? It's well writen in the forum as to how which drops anything and just about everything in solution giving you Salt water and solids.
> 
> You may have tossed the baby out with the bath water as I've heard described.
> A test would have told you exactly where your gold was.
> 
> A good analyticle chemist would have the proper procedures and tests required to make sure the results were correct and have an understanding of what happened. To see if reality is exactly as formulated.
> 
> For instance what does Nitric acid dissolve? And what does it not dissolve and why?
> 
> B.S.
> ...most times humility is very hard to swallow but is worth the price to be humbled enough to follow guidance...



You have to give me more details. What do you want to know how to neutralize? What concentration do you have? How do you want to dispose of it? Etc.

Perhaps you should read a general chemistry book. I would advise steping away from the chemicals until you have a firm understanding of how to properly neutralize and dispose of waste chemicals or else you might as well look up "Ways to hurt yourself" on Youtube...


----------



## Anonymous

cfoster78 said:


> You have to give me more details. What do you want to know how to neutralize? What concentration do you have? How do you want to dispose of it? Etc.
> 
> Perhaps you should read a general chemistry book. I would advise steping away from the chemicals until you have a firm understanding of how to properly neutralize and dispose of waste chemicals or else you might as well look up "Ways to hurt yourself" on Youtube...



Really?

The guys here are trying to help, and you're kicking it back in their teeth. You're behaving like a spoiled child.


----------



## cfoster78

spaceships said:


> cfoster78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to give me more details. What do you want to know how to neutralize? What concentration do you have? How do you want to dispose of it? Etc.
> 
> Perhaps you should read a general chemistry book. I would advise steping away from the chemicals until you have a firm understanding of how to properly neutralize and dispose of waste chemicals or else you might as well look up "Ways to hurt yourself" on Youtube...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> The guys here are trying to help, and you're kicking it back in their teeth. You're behaving like a spoiled child.
Click to expand...


I wrote almost exactly the same thing he did. So if I write it, I'm being childish. If someone writes it to me, it's being helpful. So long as I know the rules I suppose...


----------



## cfoster78

I figured that was how everyone talked to one another/treated each other on this board since that is how I was spoken to when I typed my first question as a new member on this site. I was simply trying to fit in with the crowd...

Although I must say, a few people actually were very helpful without any negative comments. To those people I say thank you - I really appreciate your insight.


----------



## Anonymous

Well if you can't see past your angst about it then that's your loss mate. Personally I'd recommend you did see past it, but I'm not you.


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## bigjohn

cfoster78 

There are hundreds of people who show up here looking for help. Most of them are people who watched a youtube video and said I can do that, or got the shor instructions and made a mess. Most people find us because they started something they knew nothing about and have a mess on their hands. I find it hard to believe that a chemical engineer would not understand what was happening during the process "dropping" gold. There are plenty of members on this forum just like me who dropped out of high school and were able to do some studying here and understand the process. Back to you showing up being a chemical engineer asking us for help when you should be more than qualified to answer your own question. So yes you will be advised to read and study some. That my friend is the best help you could be given.


----------



## solar_plasma

I am thinking over, what is the best way to convince people about to follow the advices and to let them understand, what they do not know yet..... or to find another hobby. I have seen all kinds of approaches on the forum to achieve this. But I observe, that neither good words nor harsh words, neither long nor short statements do any difference. It lies in the peoples hands, obviously it lies in their personality, if they take the chance or not. You can't force the horse to drink, you can only lead it to the watering place.


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## Pantherlikher

Yeppers.
I was a vehicle diagnostic technician for almost 25 years...Sounds big don't it...
Every customer knew what was wrong and how to fix it and how much it was supposed to cost so bitched a big 1 when it was something completely different and that I was wrong and knew nothing about what I was doing.,...Period...

It's how people are and there aint no changing that. You simplely cannot tell someone they are wrong and need to learn something. That's when it becomes a personal attack. When told they are wrong and need to learn.

cfoster78...
We are all very straight forward and at times, short. It's only because this field is chock full of professionals from all walks of life. All here helping each other and new people learn the fine art of recovery and refinning of PMs. And every new person, us included, come here and ask the same questions over and over expecting the simplest answer with no catches.
This is not the way to learn something new. Would you rather we hand you a cooked fish to eat, or teach you to catch and cook fish yourself?. Being such a qualified chemist as you've defended many times so far, you would greatly appreciate this. 

Solar_plasma being the first to reply to your question, is German right? A very different culture as is mine. This can create bad feelings and attacks simply the way we communicate. solar_plasma like the rest of us have had extended talks about how to reach anyone new comming here and asking something they should have already learned by reading.

All we can do is point you in the right direction and hope you follow.

B.S.
Sorry if feelings have been hurt as not intended.

Now...Do you wish to move forward and learn what you did and what to do?.


----------



## g_axelsson

solar_plasma said:


> (sorry please tell me the key stroke to set the O properly?)
> 
> type:
> [alt] 148
> 
> the numbers have to be typed on the number block
> 
> http://www.irongeek.com/alt-numpad-ascii-key-combos-and-chart.html


Either that or just press the key to the right of "L". :mrgreen: 

No worry, I'm been called worse things than Goran. :twisted: 

Göran


----------



## butcher

cfoster78,
I do not know how much knowledge you have about a process or with the chemistry involved, You may know more than I do, it really does not matter, if you ask for advice. You will probably get advice, If you do not like getting the advice do not ask for it, as it may not be what you wish to hear.

People her will help you if you give them a chance, come back with attitude and you will not be a member here for long.
No need to walk around the forum with a chip on your shoulder, if you don’t you may find these people trying to help could be your friends, you may not always like what they have to say, or the way they say it, but many times if you consider it you will find it actually helpful, if not say thank you, for the helpful advice...

I do not care how much chemistry classes someone has taken, if they are not skilled in recovery or refining precious metals, they will have a lot to learn, it is very hard to learn something when you have an attitude that you already know it all, just like any field, it is easier to teach (or learn) if you do not know, than it is to teach (or learn) when you know it all. Know it all's are some of the dumbest people I know of, they are so smart they cannot learn something new.

A basic understanding of chemistry will be very helpful, but it is not necessary to learn to recover and refine precious metals, many here do not understand the chemistry, but know the reactions and have learned to recover and refine precious metals (some of these actually understand the chemical process and reactions involved better than most professional chemist's ever would), others here have picked up some of the chemistry while learning this art, and then there are some members here that are chemist, and have learned to recover and refine, or specialize in this type of chemistry (even these learn something here all the time).

All members helping each other the best they can (without attitude).

I will welcome you to the forum (but that attitude is not welcome here.)
I hope we both can learn from each other, and enjoy sharing what we are learning.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Oh my goodness! When I saw this thread this morning, I couldn't believe it was the one I commented on just a day before. Over 40 posts in less than 24 hours. Wow! Since my back recovery has been going well, I've been spending longer days at the project house and haven't had as much time to read the forum. After posting my initial reply yesterday morning, I wasn't able to get back on here until this morning. It took me all morning to read the responses! :lol: 

First, I'd like to apologize to you cfoster78. Since I don't get much time here right now, my reply to you was brief, and I can understand how you interpreted it as condescending. That was not intentional, and I'm sorry you took it that way.

Having said that, I have to disagree that it was also unhelpful. Your post clearly showed that you didn't understand some of what you were doing - that's why you were asking for help. At the end you said "Any insight into how I should proceed would be greatly appreciated." The first statement in my reply was that you needed to continues studying. You claimed to have read up as much as you could. Unless you have read all the posts on this forum, this is incorrect. If you devote the time to doing just that, you'll understand that you would have learned the answers to your questions. So until you do, you haven't read as much as you could.

You told us that you used urea to neutralize the HNO3 in your aqua regia. I responded that you do not use urea to neutralize nitric acid. No matter how many times you read that, including from members here on the forum, it is simply wrong. Urea doe NOT neutralize nitric acid. If you search the subject and read the responses on this forum, you'll come to understand that.

You said that "since the urea does not neutralize the HCl in the AR", you asked if you were "missing a step in the process by not neutralizing the HCl prior to attempting to precipitate the gold". I responded to that misconception by telling you that excess HCl does not interfere with the precipitation of gold with SMB.

Finally, I ended my post with the statement that it may take more than a day to assimilate all the information on this forum. This is in direct response to your claim that you had read up as much as you can on the process of gold extraction (including Hoke). You joined the forum at 8:36. After reading up as much as you could, you posted your question at 8:42.

While you may not have understood that my answers were, indeed, helpful, you quickly went from bad to worse by insulting members of this forum who also tried to help you. I'll take one more stab at it. This is a link to a thread that may keep you from getting booted off this forum before you realize what a valuable resource it truly is. New to the board and want to ask questions? READ THIS FIRST

My advice still stands. Continue studying.

Dave


----------



## niteliteone

FrugalRefiner said:


> Oh my goodness! ...
> (big snip)
> My advice still stands. Continue studying.
> 
> Dave


Dave,
You have nothing to apologize for. You were very courteous and didn't say anything out of line. You just didn't give the answer wanted.


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## FrugalRefiner

Thanks nitelite. I try really hard to self-edit my posts. I try to always provide some useful advice when I post and to avoid being a smart alec. I often delete a post I've started because I realize it adds nothing of value to the forum and just adds to the clutter. I was more snarky in my first reply than the standard I try to set for myself. I apologized for the tone of the post, not the content.

Dave


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## butcher

Dave, I have always found your posts helpful and to the point, and i also understand you are no smart alec, thanks for working to set the record straight.

One big problem when we begin to learn something new is we do not know enough about it, so we really have no understanding of how clueless we are in the subject, sometimes it takes a lot of study just to figure out how much we really do not know yet.


----------



## RikkiRicardo

Butcher

One big problem when we begin to learn something new is we do not know enough about it, so we really have no understanding of how clueless we are in the subject, sometimes it takes a lot of study just to figure out how much we really do not know yet.

How true

RikkiRicardo


----------



## Harold_V

cfoster78 said:


> I am basically just trying to get a little help on this topic as I have exhausted all of the resources I know of to get the answer on my own and I'd prefer not to waste any more materials trying to figure it out via trial and error. If this forum is not the appropriate place to ask questions, I apologize and would appreciate if you could directy me to a place that is appropriate for that purpose if you know of one. I was just hoping someone on here could let me know if I am making some sort of mistake in my processing based on the steps I listed out that I am taking in order to attempt to get it to work.


I have just now started reading this thread, so my comments may be unwarranted, or even outdated. 
One thing you must understand, just as I understand that I, as a machinist, know nothing about cutting gears. 
I admire and respect your education in chemistry. You know things that I never will, nor do I have hopes of understanding. However, when it comes to refining gold, I am far more qualified than you are, if only because I understand the _*mechanics*_ of refining. It doesn't hurt that in my many years I refined and melted thousands of ounces of gold and silver. 

The very best advice anyone can offer you is to read Hoke's book. Not because it's a great technical piece of work---it isn't. However, what it does for you is to familiarize you with the mechanics of gold refining. It also teaches you how to properly test for various metals. With your chemical background, all of it should come with almost no effort, but they are things you MUST know and understand in order to refine with acceptable results. 

For the record, one does NOT add ammonium hydroxide to gold chloride. Not ever. 

May I suggest to you that you peruse your Merck Index, reading about gold compounds, and how unstable they can be? That may help you understand why even a skilled chemist is wise to not experiment with solutions of precious metals. 

Enough said, at least for now.

Harold


----------



## steyr223

Hey guys hows everyone in the head today  

I hope we didn't run the op off
I believe if he lost the bit of tude and I say a bit
because we have all seen huge attitude from many
short timers that always decide to just not come back
When they realize they were wong. 

When all they had to do was step back and say sorry
Wont happen again.

Sometimes this is difficult when it seems like everyone
Is against you
I just thank god I had no reason for this( not a chemist or refiner)
It was much easier for me to step back and practice
Humbleness than it would be for the more educated.

Now to the op you still need to answer the above questions
For anyone to help.

How much material did you start with,my guess would
Be not that much(you had said the solder was left on the
Boads and it wouldn't take very many in your HNO3 bath
To create metastanic acid known as tin paste. Did you
See a white gel or pastey substance,this will definitly
Make things very difficult

As far as evaperating your excess HNO3 hokes tells all
Around the start of the book

And as said get or make some SnCl stannous chloride
To test for gold in solution (2 grams of solder and 30mls
Of HCl) drop for drop and purple to black means gold in
Solution

But the questions still need to be answerd
Hope this helps steyr223 rob


----------



## BigBraintheory

Things that make an ugly world hideous:

For starters the first few posts on this thread in response to a guy who obviously has IQ levels far above the self proclaimed 'Superior' Metal Maniacs that responded to a request for help with what I like to call big brother syndrome. Not the cool one in your family either. He said hey I know what Ive done can be dangerous potentially for I may have mixed certain chemicals which may have reacted synthesizing new more dangerous and potentially explosive ones. I dont want to do that past the point Im at so hey guys can you give me some input into how I can go about being a safer and more skilled person at this hobby so maybe in the future I can come onto a forum such as this one and help a fellow stranger in need of friendly wisdom even if it may be stern and all inclusive. So it was something along those lines. And the response he gets is along these lines: "Hey shithead you need to check yourself at the login cause you in the house of King FoT with a capital T, got that bug. Yea bug, press pause on your wisdom search and fast forward your complete blank knowledge database a few years when you finally realized we dont help bugs here, we stomp them out. FoT may you drop gold in peace my thong idol, you. And next but not last, as to what youre brewing in that wicked evil weapon of mass destruction slurry, you havent the slightest idea but they can explode without any known reason to man or monkey or even King FoT himself, so these words you make up like Aluminap Nitelight and what not we wont be having it here because this is the only place you can find real truthful secret hidden gold knowledge without having your man secret dipped in molten gold and rung with a dong as we all do acid tests on it to see if you are 24kt pure of heart. Anz second but never say last, get lost bug, alast King FoT will sucumb to my advances. For I am the fake keeper. 


So yea you guys really give a great first impression. I mean I cant wait til I have a question about flux and crucibles. THE SCARLET LETTER FOR YOU VETS IS A SCARLET 'F' . FAIL


----------



## Geo

Sounds like BigBraintheory has been here before. With one post to your credit, you have managed to label all of us as narcissist. Perhaps if he had presented his case as eloquently as you (minus the profanity), he may have gotten a better response. Lucky you, you get a response from me. I find your response to this topic completely inappropriate. How do you think your response like this is going to reflect upon you as a member (for as long as that may be). If you haven't been a member here before, this is not the way we behave on the forum. You do understand that your response can be interpreted as an insult to every member here and that we understand that it was meant to be just that.

Edited for grammar.


----------



## solar_plasma

BigBraintheory said:


> Things that make an ugly world hideous:
> 
> For starters the first few posts on this thread in response to a guy who obviously has IQ levels far above the self proclaimed 'Superior' Metal Maniacs that responded to a request for help with what I like to call big brother syndrome. Not the cool one in your family either. He said hey I know what Ive done can be dangerous potentially for I may have mixed certain chemicals which may have reacted synthesizing new more dangerous and potentially explosive ones. I dont want to do that past the point I...............
> 
> ............and so on and on and on.........
> 
> 
> ....truthful secret hidden gold knowledge without having your man secret dipped in molten gold and rung with a dong as we all do acid tests on it to see if you are 24kt pure of heart. Anz second but never say last, get lost bug, alast King FoT will sucumb to my advances. For I am the fake keeper.
> 
> 
> So yea you guys really give a great first impression. I mean I cant wait til I have a question about flux and crucibles. THE SCARLET LETTER FOR YOU VETS IS A SCARLET 'F' . FAIL




Thank you for a laugh in the morning. It is not long ago, that I was a complete noob myself and I can't agree with your "first impression", if it is your first impression. Though it sounds more like you have to settle some old scores. I see a lack of content in your post. In order to try to get this into something productive, how would you like to help the different kinds of noobs? Instead of using your energy on slinging mud, you could join a conversation with some of the noobs and show us your superior communicative insights.* I would like to learn from you, at least if there is more than hot air.*


----------



## solar_plasma

And about your flux and crucibles: I found an overwhelming flood of information about this in the forum. Since I don't understand myself as being superior in any way, I am sure, you will find those, too. If not, just ask politely in a way, we can see, that you uprightly tried to find it yourself and there will be a lot of helping hands including my own. Try again to sling your mud towards my direction and I won't answer,not even ignore your post, but just keep smiling.


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## butcher

BigBraintheory,
What is the Beef? We have been trying to be helpful to, and respectful to all our new members, including the one in this thread, and trying to tell them how it is, to help them see the dangers involved, and point them where to begin learning, warn them of the dangers involved, to help them from hurting themselves and others.

Can we help it if some people come here thinking they know everything, walking into a gunpowder factory with a lit cigar in between there teeth, asking to learn how to get out of the last mess they caused.

Some people just cannot handle the truth, and you just cannot fix stupid, no matter how hard you try.

Some new members take the advice and learn from it to grow in their understanding, and use their common sense, and learn to recover and refine their precious metals.
These are normally thankful for the advice, once they understood more about it.

Some do not wish to spend the effort to learn.
Some think they are too smart, or cleaver, and do not have enough common sense to learn, and just blow up and begin to bite back at the very people who are trying to help them.


----------



## Lou

I have zero mercy for people who resurrect threads to complain in unintelligible gibberish and misrepresent the facts of the situation. No one disrespected him, or the thread starter.

Sure, some people get jumped when they come here. I got a little flak when I came here too. What's with all the people who can't take their lumps, move on, and be productive? *The point of the matter is to think before acting and at least make an effort to exhaust the vast resources of this forum, the web, and our oft-reiterated "recommended reading".* We just want the newbs to understand that health, safety, and environment is THE priority. There's a lot to this type of science, and the basics must be understood. One doesn't run without having learned to walk. 

Many users here can learn only by doing, and really, there is no substitute for actually doing it. Some learn by watching. Some by reading. Different strokes, right? 

All the original poster was told was to slow his roll. He's a chemical engineer, not a chemist (hell of a difference in my personal experience!!!) and in many of his posts, he was dead wrong, and a bit defensive. I can't, don't and won't attempt to read every post here, but if I'd have seen this one, I'd have been happy to try and help. I also understand when someone comes and says, "I'm a chemical engineer, or a PhD, or grand high vizier of science" they're expecting to be treated with a modicum of respect for their education. 

No one is under any obligation to answer any post--help, knowledge, etc. is contributed as freely as the contributor wishes.


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## Harold_V

BigBraintheory said:


> Things that make an ugly world hideous:
> 
> For starters the first few posts on this thread in response to a guy who obviously has IQ levels far above the self proclaimed 'Superior' Metal Maniacs that responded to a request for help with what I like to call big brother syndrome. Not the cool one in your family either. He said hey I know what Ive done can be dangerous potentially for I may have mixed certain chemicals which may have reacted synthesizing new more dangerous and potentially explosive ones. I dont want to do that past the point Im at so hey guys can you give me some input into how I can go about being a safer and more skilled person at this hobby so maybe in the future I can come onto a forum such as this one and help a fellow stranger in need of friendly wisdom even if it may be stern and all inclusive. So it was something along those lines. And the response he gets is along these lines: "Hey shithead you need to check yourself at the login cause you in the house of King FoT with a capital T, got that bug. Yea bug, press pause on your wisdom search and fast forward your complete blank knowledge database a few years when you finally realized we dont help bugs here, we stomp them out. FoT may you drop gold in peace my thong idol, you. And next but not last, as to what youre brewing in that wicked evil weapon of mass destruction slurry, you havent the slightest idea but they can explode without any known reason to man or monkey or even King FoT himself, so these words you make up like Aluminap Nitelight and what not we wont be having it here because this is the only place you can find real truthful secret hidden gold knowledge without having your man secret dipped in molten gold and rung with a dong as we all do acid tests on it to see if you are 24kt pure of heart. Anz second but never say last, get lost bug, alast King FoT will sucumb to my advances. For I am the fake keeper.
> 
> 
> So yea you guys really give a great first impression. I mean I cant wait til I have a question about flux and crucibles. THE SCARLET LETTER FOR YOU VETS IS A SCARLET 'F' . FAIL



I'm giving you an opportunity to post an apology for your poor choice of words, and your attack on moderators. You have until Saturday evening to get it done, at which time you, sir, will be history on this board. And, if you persist and register again, we'll have our resident junk yard dog discuss your actions with your ISP, because you will have worn out your welcome. 

If you choose to spend time on this board, you damned well better be on your best behavior. I don't tolerate anyone with attitude. 

Harold


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## Lou

In this instance, I had less patience than you Harold. I gave him 30 days to chill out and re-evaluate his coming on here with an agenda.


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## Harold_V

Lou said:


> In this instance, I had less patience than you Harold. I gave him 30 days to chill out and re-evaluate his coming on here with an agenda.


Heh! 30 days? I'd rather see him gone at his own hand, which I fully expect would have been the result of my post, but I'm good with your decision, as it gives him time to reflect on his agenda, as to whether it belongs here, or not. 

I fully expect he'll just disappear, which is fine with me. 

I'm sick to death of the smart mouthed individuals we seem to be attracting of late. I'm going to start eliminating them at the slightest provocation, and I'll do it publicly, so others can see it gets them nowhere on this board. Here, we play nice with others, we don't wave the red flag in front of the bull. 

Come here with the intention of learning and sharing, all politely, or don't come here. 

Harold


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## joubjonn

I was told this "Bigbraintheory" guy was somehow using my IP??!?! I'm not even sure how that is possible. It's been a bit since I have logged in due to a second new baby in my house. I really don't think it was possible this person was close enough to me to get into my home wifi. I'm sure their is another way, just didn't want anyone to think I would say crappy things on the forum. I don't role that way.


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## Harold_V

joubjonn said:


> I was told this "Bigbraintheory" guy was somehow using my IP??!?!


The records at hand do not support that accusation. It may be in your best interest to explore your source to determine what his/her agenda may be. 

Harold
*
EDIT:*

I stand corrected. After being advised by another, I took a second look and found that Bbt did, indeed, post from the same IP, although that isn't reflected by an opposite search. I have no clue how this happened. but if he returns to the board, he best have a good explanation. 

My apologies. 

Harold


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## Harold_V

I am making this post so those with an interest will see the Edit, above. 
I expect each of us will be accountable when a mistake is made, and that includes me.

Harold


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## rickbb

There are sites on the web, the so called "dark web" that will allow you, by proxy, to appear as if you are connecting from any IP you wish to use. 

Finding someone else's public IP is a bit tricky, but can also be done. Some times it's a simple as getting an email from someone, or getting them to visit a web site you control, etc. And of course the simple "war driving", riding around with a laptop and software to ping all the wifi AP's in range.

Although doing so for the purpose of posting rudeness as someone else seems a bit childish.


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## Claudie

The Dark Web and dark net, consists of web pages and data that are beyond the reach of search engines. I'm not sure you can pick and choose an IP address to use, also not sure anyone wants to go there. :|


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## J&amp;D

Claudie said:


> The Dark Web and dark net, consists of web pages and data that are beyond the reach of search engines. I'm not sure you can pick and choose an IP address to use, also not sure anyone wants to go there. :|


Hello, Convo from 10 years ago! I am just doing my reading on this forum and enjoyed the last hour immensely. This thread took a "dark" turn didn't it?!


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## Steveo

Pantherlikher said:


> So..yet again like others before you, you fail to see the problem.
> It's not just an easy answer which you want. Can't happen. You have not even touched the surface of this forum as a resource so don't go there.
> 
> Read and learn what you are doing please before that Amonium nitrate makes another statistic.
> Like everyone else, you justify your qualifications and defend your abilities instead of stepping back and looking at all of our answers to your inquest.
> 
> For starters, what did you start with and what steps you did to come to the conclusion that you are at a loss for what to do now? This will help us help you.
> 
> B.S.
> ...It is the humbled one who admits unknowing and begins to learn...


Sassy comments. Not justified. Regardless.


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## Steveo

J&D said:


> Hello, Convo from 10 years ago! I am just doing my reading on this forum and enjoyed the last hour immensely. This thread took a "dark" turn didn't it?!


Yes my friend it seems to have.


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## Yggdrasil

Steveo said:


> Sassy comments. Not justified. Regardless.


Why are you reviving an old post like this, and at the same minute you register?
I have now been reading this whole thread and there is nothing sassy or unjustified about his post in my eyes.
The OP was completely out of line.
He was given a lot of advice and reacted by biting the hand feeding him.


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## Steveo

Steveo said:


> Sassy comments. Not justified. Regardless.


I was not the one the one talking about the ammonium nitrate.


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## galenrog

No, your were not. 

Dredging up 9-10 year old comments, and adding nothing thing to the conversation says a lot about you, however.

Drop your ego when you login here. That is my best advice.

Time for more coffee.


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## Yggdrasil

Steveo said:


> I was not the one the one talking about the ammonium nitrate.


No but you were the one calling an old comment sassy, even if the comments seem completely warranted.
I hope you will heed galenrogs comment to you.


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## Steveo

Yggdrasil said:


> Why are you reviving an old post like this, and at the same minute you register?
> I have now been reading this whole thread and there is nothing sassy or unjustified about his post in my eyes.
> The OP was completely out of line.
> He was given a lot of advice and reacted by biting the hand feeding him.


Both of you Moderators need to chill. 
I’m out of this fiasco. 
I’m in several forums and have never seen such arrogant sarcasm. 
Much to your liking, you can have this forum. I’ll stick to the ones I’m in that treat people equally and professionally and know how to speak to one another. 
Cheers


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## Yggdrasil

Steveo said:


> Both of you Moderators need to chill.
> I’m out of this fiasco.
> I’m in several forums and have never seen such arrogant sarcasm.
> Much to your liking, you can have this forum. I’ll stick to the ones I’m in that treat people equally and professionally and know how to speak to one another.
> Cheers


Ok it’s your loss mate.


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## Martijn

Steveo said:


> Both of you Moderators need to chill.
> I’m out of this fiasco. really?  promise?
> I’m in several forums and have never seen such arrogant sarcasm. it's a gift
> Much to your liking, you can have this forum. I’ll stick to the ones I’m in that treat people equally and professionally and know how to speak to one another. can you leave voice messages there?
> Cheers


No they don't. You do however. Relax. 

Thank you sooo very much to give our forum back to us. I think most of us prefer it without the sour fruit. 
All the best of luck on the more civilized forums, Baking Cookies and the Wool Carding forum. Very high risk activities there, please be carefull mate. You could become obese or entangled. 

More sacrasm available on demand.  

Back to serious refining and recovery, happy holiday's you all!


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## Yggdrasil

Martijn said:


> No they don't. You do however. Relax.
> 
> Thank you sooo very much to give our forum back to us. I think most of us prefer it without the sour fruit.
> All the best of luck on the more civilized forums, Baking Cookies and the Wool Carding forum. Very high risk activities there, please be carefull mate. You could become obese or entangled.
> 
> More sacrasm available on demand.
> 
> Back to serious refining and recovery, happy holiday's you all!


Just guessing wildly, I kind of suspect Steveo and the OP to be either identical or at least very close.
Just my guess though.

He signed up and posted his first defence post at the same minute.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as one keep a civil language and are willing to learn.


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## Steveo

Martijn said:


> No they don't. You do however. Relax.
> 
> Thank you sooo very much to give our forum back to us. I think most of us prefer it without the sour fruit.
> All the best of luck on the more civilized forums, Baking Cookies and the Wool Carding forum. Very high risk activities there, please be carefull mate. You could become obese or entangled.
> 
> More sacrasm available on demand.
> 
> Back to serious refining and recovery, happy holiday's you all!


Yes that was a very adult professional reply


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## Yggdrasil

Steveo said:


> Yes that was a very adult professional reply


A bit late to welcome you, but you are welcome as long as you adhere to our rules.
You definitely know how to make an entrance, that is for sure 

You need to grow some thicker skin.
If you come to a forum like this, you WILL be corrected if you are wrong.
If you misbehave we will address that too.
What we do in here can be dangerous and if people do not understand what they do, they can injure themselves or others.

So if you are going to stay, we ask a few things from our members, study the book about refining jewelers scrap by C.M.Hoke, 
next study the safety section and the section about dealing with waste.
Next search the forum for what information you need.

When this is done most members are ready to start asking questions to what they do not find or understand.


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## AndrewSuperD

This forum thread is like reading a soap opera. It’s kinda entertaining, says new stuff frequently, but it’s always the same. Let me introduce a little different….

Hey Yggdrasil, I heard your name pronounced yesterday in Vikings Valhalla


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