# UPDATE! - Raw Materials: Friendly bet anyone?



## beachbum1975 (Oct 28, 2009)

Hello all, I have a bet for all you urban miners out there!

Background:
I work in IT for a living, learned about this site in late March of 2009 and got gold fever!!!! Basically, for the past 7 months I have been trying to accrue as much escrap as I can. This is my collection of memory, PCI, a few ISA and misc boards... I used tin snips to cut all the fingers shown below:
View attachment 1

Note: The black sharpie marker was just added to show relative size.

I just got my digital jewelery scale in the mail today, so it's time to weigh! After measuring and combining totals, it came to *1308.1 grams (42.056 troy ounces)* total. 

My next step is to reach out to lasersteve and purchase his DVD (hopefully within the next week!). In the meantime, would anyone like to guess my yield when Steve's process is completed? Place your guess in this post.

Friendly bets welcome on the finished, refined button weight (using lasersteve's best practices throughout)!

I will update this post with my progress...

Cheers and post your guess!

beachbum1975


----------



## glorycloud (Oct 28, 2009)

My guess is 5.915 grams of gold.

1308.1 gr / 497.6 gr per pound = 2.6288 pounds of fingers
2.6288 pounds x 2.25 gr / pound = 5.915 gr of Au

Be sure to post a picture and have fun!!

8)


----------



## lazersteve (Oct 28, 2009)

Looks like they are nicely trimmed and of high quality.

I'm guessing 2.75 grams per pound

2.75 x 2.6288 = 7.2292 grams

Steve


----------



## Buzz (Oct 28, 2009)

6.2g  

Buzz


----------



## Anonymous (Oct 28, 2009)

First time? going to refine or recover.
If recovering only 8.4
if refining 2.1

Jim

Edit, nothing against Steves processes, they are great.

Just, I know having been there, that first time unless very, very disciplined will not yeild maximum results.
Also, do not throw anything away, you can get what you miss later, that is what I did when I returned to the
first materials that I had worked with I got more on the secound run than the first.

Jim


----------



## Palladium (Oct 28, 2009)

Gold is like $ 33 / gram. If you only get 2.1 grams that's = $ 69.00

1308.1 gr / 454 gr per pound = 2.88 pounds of fingers

2.88 lbs fingers / $ 69.00 = $ 23.96 per lb of finger in gold. 

Or $ 69.00 / 1308 gr fingers = 5.2 cents worth of gold per gram of fingers.


----------



## Harold_V (Oct 29, 2009)

Palladium said:


> 1308.1 gr / 497.6 gr per pound = 2.6288 pounds of fingers


For clarification, 1308.1 gr =2.88 pounds, not 2.6288. 
They would weigh 3.504 troy pounds. 

It works like this:

A gram consists of 15.432 grains. 
A troy ounce consists of 480 grains
453.6 grams= 1 avoirdupois pound
31.10348 grams = 1 troy ounce
An avoirdupois ounce consists of 437.5 grains
An avoirdupois pound consists of 7,000 grains
A troy pound consists of 12 troy ounces
A troy pound consists of 5,760 grains
An avoirdupois ounce consists of 28.35 grams


Harold

edit: corrected error (Thanks, Nick!)


----------



## Palladium (Oct 29, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> Palladium said:
> 
> 
> > 1308.1 gr / 497.6 gr per pound = 2.6288 pounds of fingers
> ...



Your right. I made the mistake of using his conversions without checking the math.


----------



## g_axelsson (Oct 29, 2009)

Sometimes I'm really happy to live in MKS land... and this is one of those times.

:mrgreen: 

/Göran


----------



## Harold_V (Oct 30, 2009)

g_axelsson said:


> Sometimes I'm really happy to live in MKS land... and this is one of those times.
> 
> :mrgreen:
> 
> /Göran


I can understand your feelings, but, believe it or not, I had NO trouble keeping all of those systems straight (in my head) and remember them still, after being away from refining since '94. 

Regardless of the system in use, I firmly believe a person will adapt. I had no concept of the metric system, but volumes (thanks to using lab ware) became easy for me as well. 

By sharp contrast, having worked as a machinist for the majority of my life, I still resist working with metric dimensions (and tools). It's easier for me to convert to English measurements, which are, to me, very logical. 

Yeah, I know------I'm weird! :lol: 

Harold


----------



## nickvc (Oct 30, 2009)

Harold sorry to point out a mistake in your list but i think you meant ounce on your last line.


----------



## Harold_V (Oct 30, 2009)

nickvc said:


> Harold sorry to point out a mistake in your list but i think you meant ounce on your last line.


Indeed I did! That one slipped right past me, Nick. 

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I will make the appropriate correction immediately. 

Harold


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 22, 2009)

Ok, here's the latest pics from my process...
View attachment 4

View attachment 3

View attachment 2

View attachment 1


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 22, 2009)

Here's some more pics:
View attachment 3

View attachment 2

View attachment 1



I will post more pics after settling has occured, siphoning and the final brown powder.

Thanks all!


----------



## eeTHr (Nov 22, 2009)

beachbum1975;

I don't often make "ataboy" posts, because I think that too many of them just take up space (but that's just me, I'm not being judgemental or anything like that :| , and every scenario is different---sometimes I just feel like it, and sometimes if there are already a bunch of them I let it pass).

But this I've got to say: Your photo documentation is excellent. I've seen people post a dozen pictures of some equipment or process (not on this board of course :lol: ), and still leave me wondering what some step in between looked like, even sometimes with extra pictures of basically the same thing. And sometimes rather poor quality. I've seen this fault in many, many published books, also.

It just struck me that that is a really good group of pictures. Thanks for posting them.

OK. I'm done.

8)


----------



## glorycloud (Nov 22, 2009)

I'm still sticking with my guess of 5.915 grams of gold. 8) 

I always smile when I see those glittering gold foils sitting there on that filter
just waiting to get refined. :lol:


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 23, 2009)

eeTHr said:


> beachbum1975;
> 
> I don't often make "ataboy" posts, because I think that too many of them just take up space (but that's just me, I'm not being judgemental or anything like that :| , and every scenario is different---sometimes I just feel like it, and sometimes if there are already a bunch of them I let it pass).
> 
> ...




eeTHr, thank you for the kind words!

After the dust has been rinsed, settled and dried, I will need to borrow a MAPP torch (I have 3 young children, so I can't possibly persuade my wife to spend $70 on a MAPP kit just a few weeks before Christmas!)

More pics to come though...

Cheers!


----------



## glorycloud (Nov 23, 2009)

What washing procedures will you follow for the brown gold mud left
after you have dropped it with the SMB? That info will help make this 
a great noob thread. 8)


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 23, 2009)

glorycloud said:


> What washing procedures will you follow for the brown gold mud left
> after you have dropped it with the SMB? That info will help make this
> a great noob thread. 8)



I will use the following as a guide:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1900


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 23, 2009)

Here's pics of the medium brown Au powder after settling 24 hours:
View attachment 1


----------



## lazersteve (Nov 23, 2009)

In the wash process you should be very careful about heating your glass jar as it may shatter. Your jar is not the best vessel for performing the cleanup stage since it's not Pyrex.

If it were me I would start by transferring the gold powder to a straight walled Pyrex beaker at step 4. before proceeding to step 5. The beaker won't shatter as easily and has a straight side that will allow you to get the gold out easily.

Be safe!

Looking really nice so far!

Steve


----------



## glorycloud (Nov 24, 2009)

If you don't have Pyrex, Mr. Coffee seems to also work well. 8)


View attachment 1


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 24, 2009)

lazersteve and glorycloud, thank you! Those are both great tips... :lol: 

For what it's worth, I was likely going to an existing 4-cup pyrex measuring cup going forward (or find a larger pyrex or Mr. Coffee vessel) because my current glass container is definitely not intended for high heat. 

Thanks!


----------



## goldsilverpro (Nov 24, 2009)

Your 4 cup Pyrex measuring cup, or any other thick walled Pyrex vessel, is not designed for direct heat from a flame or hot plate. This glass is of uneven thickness and can break easily due to thermal shock. Although rare, I have seen Pyrex casserole dishes break in the oven, while cooking. About the only kitchen type Pyrex vessel that is reasonably safe for your use is a thin coffeepot. Even then, I would put it inside a flat bottomed dish that will take most any amount of heat, such as a 5 quart white Corning Ware dish, while heating. I do the same thing when heating beakers, just in case they break (which has happened). This precaution can save a lot of grief, not to mention a loss of values.


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 24, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Your 4 cup Pyrex measuring cup, or any other thick walled Pyrex vessel, is not designed for direct heat from a flame or hot plate. This glass is of uneven thickness and can break easily due to thermal shock. Although rare, I have seen Pyrex casserole dishes break in the oven, while cooking. About the only kitchen type Pyrex vessel that is reasonably safe for your use is a thin coffeepot. Even then, I would put it inside a flat bottomed dish that will take most any amount of heat, such as a 5 quart white Corning Ware dish, while heating. I do the same thing when heating beakers, just in case they break (which has happened). This precaution can save a lot of grief, not to mention a loss of values.



Wow, ok... I will use a Pyrex or corningware casserole dish on my stove then. Inside the dish, I will get a thin-walled high heat vessel of some kinds to boil the acid...

Thanks everyone!

Shane


----------



## goldsilverpro (Nov 24, 2009)

> I will use a Pyrex or corningware casserole dish on my stove then.



Don't use a Pyrex casserole dish for this!!! It will surely break. Maybe not the first time, if you are lucky, but it will eventually break if you heat it on a gas or electric burner - guaranteed. Don't take a chance. The white, flat bottom Corning Ware dishes are the best for this. Corning Ware also makes an amber colored, transparent dish that will work on direct heat. When they first came out, I seem to remember a commercial where they melted solder with a torch directly in these amber dishes. The only problem with them is that the bottom isn't as large as the bottom on a white CW dish. Therefore, you are limited as to the diameter of the coffeepot or beaker you can place in them.

I have seen a lot of Corning Ware dishes in resale shops, flea markets, etc. Examine the used white dishes, before buying, to make sure the glaze is intact on the entire inside bottom of the dish. It should feel very smooth and not rough. If the glaze is damaged, the porous material under the glaze will absorb water or other liquids and can break when heated.

BTW, if the glaze is intact, those white square CW dishes will handle most hot acids, including aqua regia. The only thing I have seen affect the glaze is hot concentrated sulfuric acid - which I would hope you wouldn't use anyway. Hot sodium hydroxide would probably affect it also.


----------



## eeTHr (Nov 24, 2009)

Speaking of Corning Ware, I found some in a thrift store that were round, with a handle, and included the word "range" on the bottom where the square ones say "oven microwave." One style was shallow like a frying pan, and the other was deep. 6 or 7 inches diameter.


----------



## glorycloud (Nov 24, 2009)

I bought a cheap electric frying pan from Goodwill that I use for heat when
I am washing the gold mud. I leave the mud in the coffee pot and the frying pan
works well as my hot plate and my "just in case it breaks " safety net as the gold
will stay inside the frying pan should a glass failure occur. 8)


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 24, 2009)

glorycloud said:


> I bought a cheap electric frying pan from Goodwill that I use for heat when
> I am washing the gold mud. I leave the mud in the coffee pot and the frying pan
> works well as my hot plate and my "just in case it breaks " safety net as the gold
> will stay inside the frying pan should a glass failure occur. 8)




Wow, thanks for all the info... Looks like I am stopping at Goodwill ASAP!


----------



## butcher (Nov 25, 2009)

Even the best glass does't like its temperature change fast. thermal shock breaks the best, and usually at the worst time. fiberglass serving trays are good to have on your table to catch drips and spills, those amber clear skillet's GSP mentioned, I use one for inceneration of salts, cooking them down on stove till even high heat produces no more acidic acids from seamingly dry powders, then I use the torch, they hold up to heat, it outlasted my stainless, have not broke one yet.


----------



## goldmelts (Nov 30, 2009)

HI all,

Do we have an update on this, very interesting, thank all.


----------



## beachbum1975 (Nov 30, 2009)

goldmelts said:


> HI all,
> 
> Do we have an update on this, very interesting, thank all.



Thanks for your interest! I'm struggling to find a good container and or heating element to boil the contents...

Does anyone have any suggests for a good, inexpensive heating element I can use outside in conjunction with a good thin walled pyrex jar or coffee pot?


----------



## lazersteve (Nov 30, 2009)

Walmart sells some flat top burners that are pretty cheap. 

An old coffee maker heater base may work with a little tinkering.

Steve


----------



## butcher (Dec 1, 2009)

be sure to use a GFCI outlet, wet outdoors, and these acids mixed with electric are a bad combo, the ground fault oulet will trip off if the electric current is not going were it is meant to, keeping you from getting a shocking expierience.


----------



## beachbum1975 (Dec 3, 2009)

Well, I followed Steve's advise and purchased one of these last night:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=12442587&findingMethod=rr

I set a small pyrex coffee pot on it and performed a "dry run" with water. It boiled nicely for 10-15 mins with no cracking!

So, I put my solution of brown gold dust in and boiled it for 5 minutes. No problems...

So, here's my question. After boiling and letting the brown dust settle between water rinses, I notice a fine brown film of brown "floaties", almost in a swirling pattern, floating on the top of my solution. Is this "floating dust" behavior normal? If so, I will drain all the water out and the next boil is with muriatic acid tonight! 

Thanks in advance!

Shane


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 3, 2009)

It's normal.

If you can sink them with a few squirts of the spray bottle, or simply pour them off with the top portion of the liquid into a separate beaker dedicated to tiny scraps like this. Eventually the scraps beaker will have enough in it to fuss with. As the tiny bits settle pour off the spent solution and properly dispose of it after testing with stannous.

If you are extremely careful about cleaning your glassware this should not happen. Jet Dry is rumored to also help sink the 'floaters'.

Don't get hung up on trying to catch every microgram of gold or you'll never finish the job.

Steve


----------



## beachbum1975 (Dec 3, 2009)

glorycloud said:


> If you don't have Pyrex, Mr. Coffee seems to also work well. 8)
> 
> 
> View attachment 1



glorycloud, we boughtthe same burner - ha ha!

Steve, again, thanks for the information!


----------



## beachbum1975 (Dec 3, 2009)

Here are some pics of my 1st round of acid boiling...
View attachment 1


----------



## Harold_V (Dec 4, 2009)

A couple things to ponder.

I NEVER did any water rinses before the HCl boil, when washing precipitated gold. There's not much of an advantage, and that helps avoid the floaters you're seeing, although not nearly as much as keeping your glassware spotlessly clean would. My recommendation for washing precipitated gold is to go straight to HCl and a little water. Heat to a boil, and allow it to do so for a prolonged period of time. It pays HUGE dividends where quality is concerned. 

Cleanliness is ultra critical if you expect good end results. Your glassware should be washed and wiped dry with a clean cloth. Rinsing is not enough----especially if you intend to use the vessel for precipitation. The slightest oil contamination will float gold. The amount I see in your picture is criminal! :lol: *Avoid finger prints*. They, alone, are more than enough to float your gold. 

Avoid using any of the cleansers on your glassware----except for Bon Ami. All of them have abrasives that are aggressive enough to scratch glass except that one. Scratched glassware is the source of considerable aggravation if you use it for precipitation. Gold forms along all scratches, and adheres doggedly, making recovery of the gold less than pleasant. I had a policy of using new beakers for precipitation----and demoted them to other tasks as required. By doing so, I not only had clean beakers, but each was pristine, avoiding gold adhering.

Parting shot: 

Incineration. 

It should be routine for EVERYTHING that goes through the process, prior to dissolving the values. 

After incineration, a boil in HCl and water, then a couple water rinses, will eliminate traces of substances that may complicate filtering your values. 

Think and work smart------it saves a lot of grief. 

Harold


----------



## nickvc (Dec 4, 2009)

> I set a small pyrex coffee pot on it and performed a "dry run" with water. It boiled nicely for 10-15 mins with no cracking!
> 
> So, I put my solution of brown gold dust in and boiled it for 5 minutes. No problems...
> 
> ...


Having read Harolds response to this i hesitate to add a suggestion, but it might make sense if you dont follow his advice about cleanliness,a squirt with dilute washing up liquid into your solutions helps break the surface tension, and listening to Harolds experience maybe remove the grease at the same time?


----------



## beachbum1975 (Dec 4, 2009)

Harold (et al.), thank you very much for your input on this thread.

With this being my first attempt at processing gold fingers, MANY lessons have been learned, along with some surprises along the way. The most surprising element of this process has been the need for clean, jet dried, heat resistant glassware. Harold, I can't agree with you more about the cleanliness of the glass being used for the HCL boils. 

I say this because at the present time, I have a great deal of stubborn brown dust along the walls of my pyrex coffee jar, that frankly, I am dreading to try and remove! :lol: I am thinking about using a butter knife (or another sharp edged object) and scraping the edges in an effort to free up the caked on dust, but I can only assume I will be shot down by this idea because there is another method to do it (like a chemical combination of removing the dust buildup)? Please let me know if there's a more preferred way to dislodge the dust that has built up on the walls, as I am certain scraping it will likely be a "no no"...

On my next batch, I will use only new (never used) pyrex vessels, lab beakers and test tubes.


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 4, 2009)

Crusted gold can be removed with a little warm HCl-Cl. Swirl the heated solution unitl the ring dissolves, then rinse the pregnant solution into a straight walled beaker.

Steve


----------



## beachbum1975 (Dec 4, 2009)

Wow, thanks!

After the gold crust/HCL-Cl solution is made, what needs to be done with? Settled, siphoned, rinsed with water, then ready to be dried and added to the melting dish?


----------



## beachbum1975 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok, I made a boo boo. I had a fine brown powder after following all of Steve's steps.

In fact, it reminds me of a newborns' diaper "results" :wink: 










Did I not cook this long enough??? 

I swear I waited at least 7 minutes before seeing no change in shape and turned off the torch. 

In time, will the molten gold all come together in a ball?? 

Was my furnace not hot enough?

HELP!

Thanks!


----------



## lazersteve (Jan 11, 2010)

This is what happens if you don't leave it in long enough. The more gold in the furnace, the colder the ambient temperature, and a few other factors affect the cook time. Frequent peeking into the furnace (lifting the top) slows the process also.

It's easy enough to know when it's done as the gold will form a nice smooth green surface when it is molten. 

I've melted just short of three troy ounces in one shot with mine and it took a little less than an hour to fully melt. Once the oven comes up to temperature the whole thing will glow with a brilliant white light (protect your eyes!). 

In the video I melted a few grams in seven minutes, not a few ounces.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 11, 2010)

so what is the weight of the gold?

jim


----------



## beachbum1975 (Jan 11, 2010)

Steve, you are a genius - Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

I let it sit for 15 minutes, never lifting the lid of the mini-funrace once. After for what felt like FOREVER, I lifted the lid and saw the perfect circled, bright white/almost clear, sorta psychedelic looking orb sitting in the molten borax glaze... I turned the gas off and after about 30 seconds, the orb slowly started turning green. I grabbed it with my tweezers and let it cool (not in water, but slowly in the air).

Here's my results - That was SOO exciting to do!!!!!

Final weight below, though I have not removed the borax yet...







I just need to get some battery acid now to remove the glassy borax finish from the bottom.

Thanks a million to all those that assisted, especially Steve.

I broke my gold recovery cherry - FINALLY!

Cheers!


----------



## beachbum1975 (Jan 11, 2010)

glorycloud said:


> My guess is 5.915 grams of gold.
> 
> 1308.1 gr / 497.6 gr per pound = 2.6288 pounds of fingers
> 2.6288 pounds x 2.25 gr / pound = 5.915 gr of Au
> ...



Glorycloud was only off by about .2(ish) grams - wow!

My scale doesn't measure beyond the 1st decimal to the right, so who knows...

Good work!


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 11, 2010)

Damn that is good looking.


----------



## beachbum1975 (Jan 11, 2010)

Upon closer inspection of the images I took, I think it's really interesting to see where the button sat above the molten borax.

Check this out:


Very neat all around.

Cheers!


----------



## glorycloud (Jan 11, 2010)

Woo-hoo! I win the prize! 8) 

Ummm, what was the prize again?? :lol: 

Great job beachbum!


----------



## silversaddle1 (Jan 12, 2010)

I sure hope Glorycloud's formula holds up when I get my tub of fingers refined. It's just over 40 pounds right now, alot of them being mid 70's vintage!


----------



## beachbum1975 (Jan 15, 2010)

silversaddle1 said:


> I sure hope Glorycloud's formula holds up when I get my tub of fingers refined. It's just over 40 pounds right now, alot of them being mid 70's vintage!



Send some my way! I'll take care of it! 

@Gorycloud - You win my undying, calculative respect! You WIN the Gentlemen's bet!!!

Cheers!


----------



## glorycloud (Jan 15, 2010)

Hey, how about some Skyline chili Mr. Cincinatti. 8)


----------



## beachbum1975 (Jan 15, 2010)

glorycloud said:


> Hey, how about some Skyline chili Mr. Cincinatti. 8)




Wow! You know of the Great City of Cincinnati's splendors, I'm impressed!

I'm a native of Connecticut, so it's hard for me to appreciate that stuff.

Good call!


----------



## glorycloud (Jan 15, 2010)

Sign me up for a three way with cheese and onions amigo.
I buy the frozen Skyline chili here at my Publix in GA. It's
great on spaghetti noodles!! Yum!


----------

