# a real problem



## Geo (Feb 3, 2014)

there was a gentleman who contacted me through my youtube channel and ask me if i could refine some chips for him. i explained that i do, occasionally, toll refine and explained what i refine and that there was a minimum amount i could accept. i explained that the chips had to be separated (ceramic from plastic) and that i dont accept whole boards. he sent two medium size flat-rate boxes. one contained mixed chips and the other contained memory sticks. i contacted him and told him that it was not what we discussed and he gave me a crying heart story why he needed the material refined. i told him that i would keep the material and work on it on the side of whatever else i had to do. he seemed satisfied but after a couple of weeks, he started sending me messages asking for results. i told him that since the material was not what we discussed and i told him it would be on the back burner that time was not an issue. we had some very bad weather around this time and i work outside. i really dragged my heals and because it was going to be a loss for me anyway but i went ahead and put everything else aside and put in the nearly two weeks worth of work and the expenses were : a bottle of propane $16, various chemicals around $20, a melting dish $4 and my time. the final refined weight was almost 8g. i told him that i couldnt refine for him anymore and mailed the button to him in my normal way, tan manila padded envelop with the button in a small zip-lock bag. up until i told him what the amount was and that i was mailing it out, he had sent me many messages threatening all sorts of things, like making out a report that i had ripped him off by deception. after mailing the button i thought it was over. now he is messaging me saying that he didnt receive a package and that he is going to have me arrested. im not worried about the threats because, really, what can he do? i sent the package, im not going to send him another 8g after what i went through and made nothing. its just that every time something like this happens, it makes me feel that i will never do another toll refine. i hate the thought that theres someone out there that thinks i have cheated them. 

Harold, i can hear your words in my ear right now. it sounds like im the one that got cheated and i dont know why it makes me feel so bad.


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## Smack (Feb 3, 2014)

You had a tracking number right? If so, they can verify that the package was delivered.


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## sharkhook (Feb 3, 2014)

I once refined a 3000 pound lot of wheel weights for a local fellow who never understood why he didn't get back 3000lbs of lead. Even worse, the guy being local, watched me do the first two, 300lb lots, and saw for himself the waste materials that was being removed. 20+ years later and this guy still thinks I cheated him out of the rest of his lead. At my age, I will probably never work pm's for anyone but myself. If I ever do, they will have to hand deliver and pick it up. The main thing is you know you did your part, the right way, that can never be taken away from you, no matter what.


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## Geo (Feb 3, 2014)

Smack said:


> You had a tracking number right? If so, they can verify that the package was delivered.



no, and thats the problem. i just sent the button in a padded envelop with enough stamps to get it there. by the time i sent it, i was determined not to spend another penny that i didnt have to. i already had the envelope and stamps. now i wish i had put tracking on it, but hey, 8g buttons usually dont garner that amount of concern from me. the guy is so adamant that he has lost business and reputation for the small amount of material. on one hand, if the guy is telling the truth and the package never showed, i can understand because some people are not at all forgiving when it comes to a dollar. on the other hand, (which i believe) is that the package made it and when he saw how small an 8g button was, he started yelling foul wanting me to send him another one.

well, this has left me mentally exhausted. im going to try and put it behind me, whats the worse he can do, fill up my inbox with threats or come to my address? either way, im not worried about it.


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## Harold_V (Feb 3, 2014)

Some people have no sense of fair play. I have a brother like that---he's not the least bit concerned how his actions impact others, so long as the end result is to his benefit. That damned well includes how he treats his own family. Avoid such people at all costs. There's no way you can deal with them and come out without being shafted. 

For all practical purposes, what I see here is a bait and switch. Perhaps our resident attorney will comment accordingly, as I do not dispense legal advice, nor do I have the necessary credentials to do so. 

Had I been the recipient of the material, I'd have notified him that he sent the wrong stuff and it doesn't meet my requirements, and that he is in violation of the verbal contract. If he wants his material returned, he can send shipping expenses. Otherwise, it will be there for him to pick up at his leisure, but only for a given length of time, after which you'll start charging a storage fee. I'd do this by registered letter, making note that you have kept a copy of the letter. 

In regards to shipping precious metals, while it's not cheap to do so, I always shipped such material by first class registered, insured. That way they can't deny receiving the goods, and if they don't receive them, the value is secured by the insurance. Such parcels are tracked by the post office and must be signed for when they leave one jurisdiction and enter another. I insured the package for real value, and included the cost in my refining fee. 

Harold


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## artart47 (Feb 3, 2014)

Hey Geo!
You know that you're of great character! and,
those who are close to you know that you're of great charater! 
That's all that matters!

artart47


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## AndyWilliams (Feb 3, 2014)

The government does take a snapshot of every letter and package that goes through the system. I haven't tried yet, but have contemplated using this procedure to determine that an item was sent, thereby showing that the sender did indeed fulfill their part by mailing the item. Of course, that isn't actual proof, and neither is any confirmation or signature garnered upon delivery, that the item was affirmatively mailed. There is still the matter of what was actually in a package that was signed for.


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## rickbb (Feb 3, 2014)

I see 2 lessons learned here.

1. As soon as you received the shipment and saw it was not what you agreed to, pack it back up and send it back. People that can't follow simple instructions are trouble in the making and aren't worth the time and effort to deal with.

2. Never ship without a tracking number and insurance, charge all shipping costs to the customer so your not out a dime on that.


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## JHS (Feb 3, 2014)

Geo,AndyWilliams is correct.some time back Isold a very expensive shotgun barrel
on ebay.the buyer opened a case.he said he did not receive it,even though tracking showed it was delivered,
the usps in fact does take pictures of all the mail.
i went to the usps primary sort facility and they printed a picture of the package.then they found the package two days later at the appartment building.he had not checked the package drop off point for the appartment building.
now when i send anything over $100.00 they must sign for it.
lesson learned.
john
P.S.He can not have you arrested.the most he can do is go to small claims court.

Andy,you could show the postman what was in the package,then seal it in front of him.


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## herd (Feb 3, 2014)

Unless he lives near you, no one is going to file a civil lawsuit over such a small amount. Financially it would not make sense. I was always told the best time to weed out a bad client is before you start. It seems this is a good example of that maxum. Chalk it up to experience and use the tracking option next time.


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## moose7802 (Feb 3, 2014)

I'm sorry that this has happened to you Jeff, you definitely don't deserve it. Honestly this is just another example of what our society is and has come to. People believe they should just have things handed to them and not have to work for it. I'm sure the guy received the package and is trying to pull a fast one because he realized you didn't put a tracking number or any other type of conformation that the package had been delivered. Jeff you know your a good guy and so do a lot of people here, so as long as you know you did the right thing that's all that matters because I don't see this guy really being able to do anything about it. 

Tyler


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## resabed01 (Feb 3, 2014)

I also think people in general have a unreal expectation of the whole subject of gold recovery. Refining, at that stage, doesn't even enter their mind. They watch a couple of 3 minute Youtube videos and it all looks so easy and profitable. Then they begin thinking their pile of e-scrap is worth thousands in bullion. Look at the auctions on ebay of gold scrap for example. Those appear to be fueled by hype, not by reason. Who knows what they are basing their judgements on but it appears to be clouded.


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## moose7802 (Feb 3, 2014)

^^I couldn't agree more!!!^^

Tyler


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## Geo (Feb 3, 2014)

thank you guys for the vote of confidence, it really means alot. after talking to a friend of mine who does welding as a side job and has dealt with this kind of thing advised me to simply bill him for services rendered and add in cost of material if he wants to press the matter.


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## nickvc (Feb 3, 2014)

Been there done it, just write it off and hope the idiot leaves well enough alone!


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## Dan Dement (Feb 3, 2014)

*Offer to ship under his Fed Ex Number! That way, he gets to way for the shipping costs!

Dan*


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## Anonymous (Feb 4, 2014)

Sorry to hear what happened Geo.

If this EVER happens again please please never again send anything without a tracking number/recorded delivery. That Sir was unfortunately the mistake you made, and I know you'll take that as intended which is straight honesty and business advice.

As soon as he sent a parcel of different kit despite your agreement I would have also backed out and returned it even at my own cost because the alarm bells would have been ringing loud and clear at that point. Trading with other people is sometimes difficult at best, and being firm and outlining the terms of engagement up front is the only way to do this. I suggested a thread about this, and I still think it would be useful but I leave this one up to the powers that be to decide the merits of.

Again, good luck out there mate. 

Jon


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## moose7802 (Feb 4, 2014)

Jon the guy that sent Jeff the items to refine was not a member here, he met him through YouTube. That's another reason why this guy doesn't know what he's talking about or doing because he has probably got most of his misinformation from YouTube. I have a feeling that the good guy in this situation will prevail. 

Tyler


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## Geo (Feb 4, 2014)

Just let me say that, if it had been a member of the forum, I would have sent another button as soon as they were sure that enough time had passed for delivery. I'm not saying that I give members here more merit than I would anyone else. With someone from here, the situation wouldn't have happened the same way. For me, its not a question of whether he got the package or not because I know that I sent it. i guess you can call me naive because it didn't cross my mind that he may say he didn't get the package. Since there's no way for me to prove that I sent it, he thinks he can force me to send another. The Biggest difference and the main difference between this guy and anyone else from the forum is, I feel as though I've been cheated by this guy and I've never been cheated by anyone on the forum. It's for this reason that I've decided not to have any further contact with the guy and let him do his worse. If a judge decides that I owe him something, well, you cant fight city hall. 

I really appreciate all the advice and will remember what I've been told. Thank you all very much.


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