# Recovering Black Powder from the Cell



## Anonymous

I am building a cell for un plating gold jewelry. I have purchased everything i need and made a lead bar and i know how to get the thing working but my problem is this.

I watched the videos on the site but the videos on how to filter and get the gold out wont play. Im compleetly lost on how to filter the gold out (washing the powder)and getting the gold out of solution. 

I am also wondering if I need the glycerin because I am using lead.


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## Noxx

Glycerin is useless.


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## Barren Realms 007

joey2273 said:


> I am building a cell for un plating gold jewelry. I have purchased everything i need and made a lead bar and i know how to get the thing working but my problem is this.
> 
> I watched the videos on the site but the videos on how to filter and get the gold out wont play. Im compleetly lost on how to filter the gold out (washing the powder)and getting the gold out of solution.
> 
> I am also wondering if I need the glycerin because I am using lead.



Let your gold settle and then siphon off the acid. Dilute the soultion with the gold still in it 3 to 1 and filter. If you try to filte without diluting it will dislove your filter paper.


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## lazersteve

Here's my latest version of what to do next:

When your cell is full you should:


Let all the black powder settle
Pour off the bulk of the concentrated sulfuric acid. Don't worry about the small amount of residual black powder that is in the acid that is poured off as you can get it on the next batch.
The remaining acid with the bulk of the black powder in it should be slowly added (let it cool before adding more) to five or six times it's volume of water.
Stir this very well and allow to settle again.
Siphon off the colored solution. Repeat this process until the wash is no longer colored.
Test a few drops of the rinse water with a drop or two of 3% unscented clear household ammonia, if the rinse water turns blue when the ammonium hydroxide is added, copper is still present and more rinsing is required. 





Dissolve the black powder with AR or HCl-Cl and proceed as typical for these processes.
The concentrated acid that was poured off is used in your next cell run as is. Hot concentrated acid is very dangerous, so exercise extreme caution when handling it. Never add water to concentrated sulfuric acid/powder mixture, add the acid/powder slowly to the water instead.


Steve


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## Anonymous

Thank you.


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## philddreamer

Thank you Steve!


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## HAuCl4

It will be very interesting when I set up one of these.

I plan to boil half the gold mud in hot nitric acid and treat the other half with HCL-CL and drop with SMB, and then compare the fineness of the 2 buttons via fire assays.

Thanks for the cell videos Steve. I learned that gold can be dissolved in sulfuric with current. The learning never ends it seems!.


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## Nopyrite

Steve, I have received the parts from you that I had ordered and now my cell is up and running. I think I could have chosen a better drain cleaner though for my first run. I picked up a bottle of Liquid Lightning (red label) at Wall-Mart. It is kind of dark brown with a light syrupy texture right out of the bottle. I must say though that it does a good job of stripping the Gold. However, it soon builds a thick foamy layer of bubbles on top about the same consistency as the head on a glass of Guinness. Since this is a test run, I have shut the cell down and I will let the thick, dark mixture settle for 24 hours per your instructions. The part I like the most about this process is the fact that the sulfuric can be used again (though I am not crazy about Liquid Lightning) after filtration thus creating less waste to deal with. I have a bit of a crazy question concerning the rinse/cathode storage water. Should the water be processed for values or just treated and discarded? Thanks again to all on this site for your help.


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## Barren Realms 007

Nopyrite said:


> Steve, I have received the parts from you that I had ordered and now my cell is up and running. I think I could have chosen a better drain cleaner though for my first run. I picked up a bottle of Liquid Lightning (red label) at Wall-Mart. It is kind of dark brown with a light syrupy texture right out of the bottle. I must say though that it does a good job of stripping the Gold. However, it soon builds a thick foamy layer of bubbles on top about the same consistency as the head on a glass of Guinness. Since this is a test run, I have shut the cell down and I will let the thick, dark mixture settle for 24 hours per your instructions. The part I like the most about this process is the fact that the sulfuric can be used again (though I am not crazy about Liquid Lightning) after filtration thus creating less waste to deal with. I have a bit of a crazy question concerning the rinse/cathode storage water. Should the water be processed for values or just treated and discarded? Thanks again to all on this site for your help.



The rinse water should be filtered to recover your values and then process them.


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## philddreamer

I've used a combination of methods to "clean" my solution. 
First, I let settle overnite as Steve recommends. Then, I take a funnel & plug it with fiberglass like Iron recommends; I pour the solution thru the filter, leav'n the sediment that's @ the bottom of cell. I rinse the sediment & add a bit HCI in case of cu present. Same with the sponge on the cathode. 
I rinse the funnel, so no acid is present. Then I run thru the filter my HCI-CI solution & it dissolves the gold that collected in the filter; now the filter is ready for when I rinse the sediment from the cell.
When I'm done, the acid is clear & the filter can be re-used for next batch.


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## Nopyrite

phildreamer, thanks for the tips. I have used your suggestion of the fiberglass/funnel filter solution. My problem as I mentioned above is my choice of Liquid Lightning red label from Wall-Mart. This stuff is dark with the consistency of motor oil. It comes out of the filter exactly as it went in with no change and there is very little powder in the bowl. I will test the solution with stannous to see if it contains Gold. What brand of sulfuric do you use in your cell?


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## philddreamer

Hi brother Nopyrite!

I bought a gallon of "Liquid Fire". It's reddish brown & thick as molasses. :lol: It has turn light green after 3 batches, i think its copper, though copper collects on the cathode. I haven't had to add any extra acid yet. I brush the cu off the cathode into a separate small bucket & add some water, let settle, decant & then add HCI. Next morning I filter & rinse; add the black sediment to what was @ the bottom of cell. I only run the acid once thru the filter & it's clear. 
Experiment packing the fiberglass. Too tight, & it will take a while to run thru. Too lose & you'll see sediment close to the end. Medium packed & it works good. :lol:


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## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> Hi brother Nopyrite!
> 
> I bought a gallon of "Liquid Fire". It's reddish brown & thick as molasses. :lol: It has turn light green after 3 batches, i think its copper, though copper collects on the cathode. I haven't had to add any extra acid yet. I brush the cu off the cathode into a separate small bucket & add some water, let settle, decant & then add HCI. Next morning I filter & rinse; add the black sediment to what was @ the bottom of cell. I only run the acid once thru the filter & it's clear.
> Experiment packing the fiberglass. Too tight, & it will take a while to run thru. Too lose & you'll see sediment close to the end. Medium packed & it works good. :lol:



If your acid is not concentrated/has water in it the solution will attack copper fast. If the solution is warm it will attack copper, keep the solution in an ice bath when processing to keep this problem to a minimum.


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## Nopyrite

UH - OH, looks like this stripping cell operation is a bit more complicated than I originally anticipated. Is the ice-bath recommended while the cell is being used in the "stripping" mode or when attempting to recover my feeble little portion of paydirt?


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## Barren Realms 007

Nopyrite said:


> UH - OH, looks like this stripping cell operation is a bit more complicated than I originally anticipated. Is the ice-bath recommended while the cell is being used in the "stripping" mode or when attempting to recover my feeble little portion of paydirt?


I use it in ice bath when I am running my cell. The cell in one container setting in ice held by another container.


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## lazersteve

Nopyrite said:


> UH - OH, looks like this stripping cell operation is a bit more complicated than I originally anticipated. Is the ice-bath recommended while the cell is being used in the "stripping" mode or when attempting to recover my feeble little portion of paydirt?



The heat can easily be controlled by letting the cell rest for a short time between runs. I've never used an ice bath for my cells and feel it may actually be hazardous to have water near the concentrated acid if a spill were to occur.

The only way you'll get enough heating to force you to stop running the cell is if you run several batches in succession using the copper mesh screen. Another possibility for quick heat build up is using other experimental anodes that allow you to strip many items all at once.

A much easier solution to heating is to simply set up two cells and alternate use of the cells once one gets heated or saturated with gold. No offense to Barren, but I would advise you to stay away form ice baths and the cell.

Steve


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## Barren Realms 007

lazersteve said:


> Nopyrite said:
> 
> 
> 
> UH - OH, looks like this stripping cell operation is a bit more complicated than I originally anticipated. Is the ice-bath recommended while the cell is being used in the "stripping" mode or when attempting to recover my feeble little portion of paydirt?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The heat can easily be controlled by letting the cell rest for a short time between runs. I've never used an ice bath for my cells and feel it may actually be hazardous to have water near the concentrated acid if a spill were to occur.
> 
> The only way you'll get enough heating to force you to stop running the cell is if you run several batches in succession using the copper mesh screen. Another possibility for quick heat build up is using other experimental anodes that allow you to strip many items all at once.
> 
> A much easier solution to heating is to simply set up two cells and alternate use of the cells once one gets heated or saturated with gold. No offense to Barren, but I would advise you to stay away form ice baths and the cell.
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...


No offense taken Steve, I can understand the concern. I do have an advantage in that I work with sulfuric on a regular basis as a drain cleaner and have for many years so I am familiar with a lot of it's reactions. Sounds can tell you a lot like when you have poured it on top of water in a confined vessel like a drain, When it comes in contect with a strong base like when someone has used vinigar and baking soda together to clean a drain( and don't use this formula it is a lousy home remedy). I would not advise people to use it the way I do sometimes.


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## Nopyrite

Thanks for the clarification on the "Ice" issue guys. I will be just doing small batches, so excess heat should not be an issue. I do have a technical question though. The cathode is made of lead and is partially submerged in the acid bath. The anode is made of stainless, but does not go into the bath. My question is why stainless for the anode as it does not get exposed to the acid? If my understanding is correct, the anode is just a link in the electrical circuit. It seems that about any kind of metal would serve the same purpose. Is stainless used as it has more resistance to accidental exposure to the acid?


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## lazersteve

No pyrite said:


> Is stainless used as it has more resistance to accidental exposure to the acid?



Yes, that is correct. Any conductive metal will work for the anode rail, but stainless will give you the longest life and least contamination if exposed to the solution.

Steve


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## bklopsy

Steve
I have completed a little over 20 pounds of plated material and have expired the copper meshes purchased from you. My question is, is there a stainless steel mesh? I have taken a real interest in recovery using the cell method but copper contamination and life span of copper mesh are an issue
Brooks


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## lazersteve

Stainless doesn't last as long as copper.

Key points to keep your copper healthy:

1. Don't run your cell hot.

2. Run the highest concentration acid you can.

3. Store the mesh clean and in a sealed ziplock bag.

Steve


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## bklopsy

Steve
Is there a thicker copper mesh available? As much as I wait between batches, my cell can in no way keep up with my feed stock: not even if I set up two cells. I absolutely appreciate what you all have shared with me but am finding the small cell a little slow. I don't mind the work or putting in my thousand hour to learn properly. Just wondering if there is a larger rat trap 

I have seen videos of higher amp deplating that is supposedly quicker but have learning curve and cost concerns. 

Brooks


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## lazersteve

Brooks, 

Larger cells will allow you to run larger batches, but strip times are relatively consistent. 

Think of it like this:

It takes a well defined finite amount of electrical current to plate an atom of gold on the scrap, and it requires the same amount to remove an atom of gold in the cell. Therefore it takes the same amount of time at the same amperage to strip the gold regardless of cell size.

You can't increase the rate that the gold strips by increasing the cell size unless you also increase the current density ( and the heating) between the anode and cathode. It's very important to size all aspects of the cell accordingly: power supply, volume of electrolyte, and amperage. If you do not increase the power supply current enough to compensate for the larger cell, hence larger between anode and cathode, you will actually slow the rate of gold stripping. If you do not increase the amount of electrolyte proportional to the cell size the electrolyte will heat quickly and you'll be replacing larger parts that wear out due to corrosion.

You'll need enough cell volume and design to allow for exposure of the electrolyte to all the plated items so they all strip. otherwise you'll end up with a high percentage of stripped scrap that does not strip. This is evident in the small cell, if you have tightly packed scrap like small fully plated pins, the electrolyte does not make electrical contact with all of the pins and therefore does not strip them. These pins are in effect protected from the current of the cell. On the same track, the basket, if not properly formed around the pins will shield the pins in a 'Faraday Cage' that prevents the electrical current from passing through the pins to promote timely stripping of the scrap. The current will flow through the basket instead and decay it. This is known as the path of least resistance.

My advice is to learn the factors that affect the efficiency of your small cell, then redesign a larger one that overcomes the bottlenecks that are destroying your anode, causing heating, and slowing the overall process. Your corroding basket indicates an operational flaw to me, not a problem with the basket material.

A well balanced cell is a trade off between amperage flow, electrolyte volume, anode and cathode surface areas and configurations, scrap exposure to the electrolyte and electrical current, and proper temperature control regardless of it's size. Scale up in steps to be sure your new designs are sound in all of these aspects.

For me personally, it is better to 95% strip a 1/4 to 1/2 pound of plated scrap in small cell in a few minutes then cool the cell and reload, than to spend the effort to build a larger cell that takes days to 95% strip a few pounds of plated scrap. Keep in mind the larger cell means larger volumes of sulfuric acid to filter, transport, and recycle. Again the larger cell takes the same amount of time to strip the same scrap at a given current density (amps per square inch) regardless of the size of the cell.

The larger cells offer advantages in the time required to monitor the cell operation. They can be loaded, set to run, and left on a timer to complete after a trial run to determine the safety of the set up. You will still have some percentage of the scrap that remains partially or fully plated. Scaling up is perfectly feasible, but not as simple as you may imagine. 

One last thing to think about is the time between clean out the cell and batch processing. Large cells do not lend themselves well to determining actual yields for a particular type of scrap. The small cells are well suited to this since they are easily cleaned out. A large cell takes longer to become saturated with gold, so your values will be tied up in the batch. 

All in all it's a trade off between your goals and the proper size of the cell you design.

I hope this helps. I'm hoping others with cell experience will post their suggestions also as this is only my take and guys like GSP and Oz will surely provide some different angles on the benefits and problems than I do.

Steve


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## bklopsy

Steve 

It helps a lot. Thank you.

It makes sence to perfect what I am using now to better future aspirations. 
I have had some issues that perhaps you could educate me on. First off, I use the same equipment as in your videos (the only difference is that I am using a very old 6amp battery charger with a reducer switch to 3 amps.) I have completed 5 batches to date with about an ounce recovered, on the average: per batch. My feed stock is mostly mil spec. connectors. However, I have been experimenting with everything gold plated. 

My questions are:

My charger typically starts kicking off and on when I am on my third copper mesh batch. It runs smoothly for the first two, each and every time. Never kicks off when not using mesh. Why is this happening? The way I have been compensating for it, is to reduce charger to 3amps (when it kicks back on and then towards end of batch, I turn it back to 6amps and typically stays on.

When rinsing copper mesh of black powder from last batch, how dry should the mesh be (from water) before proceeding with next batch?

I have been washing cell mud with HCL multiple times before AR and still getting dirty gold. Should I be boiling the mud during HCL wash? 

Thanks again for the info.

Brooks


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## goldsilverpro

I would probably leach the filtered, rinsed (I would use distilled water for the final rinse or two) mud in nitric first, to remove any base metals, and then, after filtering, I would dissolve it in aqua regia and go from there. As an alternative, you could probably use HCl/H2O2 to remove base metals and then dissolve the gold in HCl/bleach. I doubt if you'll ever get clean gold without doing one of these. Although some have tried, no one else, that I know of, has gotten pure (999.5 or better) gold by just melting the residue directly (no matter what it had been leached with). I think you'll have to refine it first.

When I did this on a large scale, I just dissolved the mud directly in aqua regia. However, I had a 50 gallon tank and a $1500-$2000 plastic barrel plater that I tumbled the parts in. Since the solution temperature rarely exceed 100F and since I had a big plating rectifier, with tight controls over the amperage, I had little or no base metals in the mud. For some parts, such as old side-braze CPUs, I mounted each part separately on a plating rack, using spring contacts made from piano wire. Depending on the size of the parts, a 2-sided rack would hold up to 700 CPUs. The rack, itself, was made of exposed 1/4" square brass stock. After 2 years of daily usage, the brass wasn't noticeably attacked. On the racks, the gold brazes were stripped in 15-20 minutes. We had about 10 racks (along with a couple of girls to load them) and we stripped parts all day. In the barrel, pins stripped 100% in about 5-10 minutes, if I remember right. I would guess that we ran 10-20 pounds of pins at a time, maybe more.


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## bklopsy

GSP

I am sorry that I did not make myself clear enough. I have already dropped gold from solution. That gold color is dirty. I intend to refine again so I have not melted anything.

I was trying to find out the best cleaning method for removing base metals from cell mud before I dissolve with HCL/ Clorox. Of all the drops I have done, the cell gold is the dirtiest. I washed it multiple times in water till there was no color and twice, for days at a time, in HCL prior to HCL/Clorox. 

Thanks, Brooks


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## goldsilverpro

bklopsy said:


> GSP
> 
> I am sorry that I did not make myself clear enough. I have already dropped gold from solution. That gold color is dirty. I intend to refine again so I have not melted anything.
> 
> I was trying to find out the best cleaning method for removing base metals from cell mud before I dissolve with HCL/ Clorox. Of all the drops I have done, the cell gold is the dirtiest. I washed it multiple times in water till there was no color and twice, for days at a time, in HCL prior to HCL/Clorox.
> 
> Thanks, Brooks



Do you have the chemicals to do a hot 50/50 nitric leach on the mud from the cell and then use aqua regia? I assume you do, since you mentioned using AR in one of your posts. I would think that nitric would be much more effective in removing base metals than HCl would.

Also, are you following sound methods for the AR? Is the solution crystal clear before you drop the gold? Did you add a little sulfuric to the AR to drop any lead (especially if you are using lead anywhere in the system or have solder present on the parts)? Was all the silver removed? When you drop the gold from AR, does the powder look slightly gray? That could be Pt, although I don't know where it would come from.


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## bklopsy

GSP
I knew someone would catch that. I said AR in that post in hast: I actually disolved with HCL/Clorox. However, to answer your question, I do have 500ml of 70% enviromental grade nitric. I was saving it for dequarting some karat jewelry I have----AND------it was not easy to get or cheap. I did think of doing it with the nitric but thought that would be costly. That nitric cost me $100 

The solution did turn crystal clear for about two seconds---then to a pail/faint blue before over taken by brown color. I did not add sulfuric to solution because my thought process was that it was in sulfuric when deplating. I guess I'm about to learn something. 

I definately have lots of silver sediment from all batches I have saved them into a seperate container for later refining. After dissolving and settling, I have siphoned all solutions 

Thanks, Brooks


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## goldsilverpro

bklopsy said:


> GSP
> I knew someone would catch that. I said AR in that post in hast: I actually disolved with HCL/Clorox. However, to answer your question, I do have 500ml of 70% enviromental grade nitric. I was saving it for dequarting some karat jewelry I have----AND------it was not easy to get or cheap. I did think of doing it with the nitric but thought that would be costly. That nitric cost me $100
> Thanks, Brooks



Man, $800/gallon nitric is a bit pricey. That's 50 times more than what I just paid. I'm sure you realize that the much cheaper tech grade works equally well for our purposes. Where are you located?


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## bklopsy

GSP

I am located in Connecticut. The problem I found is that no one is willing to sell to an individual or send nitric to a residence. The liability is a huge issue for most company's. They want your Fed Tax number and they will only send to a business. If you have a good source, I'm all ears. Well, eyes in this case. Even the tech grades I have found are expensive. 

Thanks, Brooks


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## goldsilverpro

Someone in Conn. or, thereabouts, please help this guy find some cheaper nitric. 

I think someone on the forum recently posted that he bought 5 bottles of nitric and paid $65 total shipping. I don't remember the size of the bottles or the price.


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## bklopsy

That sure would help. I'd dissolve all my base metals out that way.

I just read a post that mentioned BC Scientific. I looked at site and pricing is better that what I've been paying. Can someone please advise me which nitric to get for tech grade is not mentioned.

Thanks, Brooks


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## lazersteve

I bought six 2.5 L bottles from BC. They only had ACS grade, but it was still the cheapest I found with shipping and all. 

I paid $315 or so to my door.

Steve


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## bklopsy

Steve

Thank you very much. I placed order with you for addition node and mesh so I can start running two cells. Did you read my post about my battery charger that keeps kicking off and on?

Thanks, Brooks


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## jimdoc

Brooks,
Is your battery charger an automatic or manual charger?
If its automatic that is probably the problem. I had the same
thing with a charger that was supposed to be manual/automatic,
but didn't seem to work any different on manual, so I assume it
was broken.Now I have a manual charger that works fine.

Jim


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## bklopsy

Jimdoc

I honestly do not know the difference. I have a single switch that allows me to choose between a fast (6amp) charge or a slow (3amp.) charge: thats it. However, on another note, I had problems being able to use the first two chargers that I have owned for years. They simply would not work with the cell.

My neighbor had an old one that he gave me and it worked from the first batch on---except of course for this little inconvenience that I have learn to deal with. The charger I am using is from the seventies and the two I own are about 10 - 15 years old.

What is the difference between an automatic and manual charger

Brooks


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## jimdoc

Brooks,
I forget who it was, but someone on the forum hooked a battery up to the charger and it worked,maybe you can try that.That would keep the charger working and stop it from kicking off.Then you would know to lookout for a manual charger.

Jim


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## jimdoc

Here is a link to the posting;

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7266&p=66352&hilit=battery+charger#p66352


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## bklopsy

Jimdoc
Thank you for the post link. I am looking to purchase second charger anyway----I will look into a maual one.
Thanks again, Brooks


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## qst42know

Automatics have a circuit inside to prevent overcharging batteries, some will not even come on without having a battery connected.


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## bklopsy

qst42know

Thats what I was looking for. That explains why the other two chargers I have will not work on the cell.

Thank you, Brooks


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## Nopyrite

Hello all. I have a question regarding the red-brown residue from my final filter. I processed about 20 grams of plated computer e-scrap using a copper screen cell set up per Steve's video. I carefully followed directions with several decant/washings then dropped with SMB. If I understand the SMB process, you should only need about as much SMB as the amount of powder that you expect to drop. This did not work out in my case. I probably had to use 10 times this amount before getting any thing to drop. When doing the wash of the dropped red-brown material, some of the color bled through the filter. Notice the parfait look of the colors in the jar. The contents of the jar tested negative for Gold with Stannous. This causes me to question if the residue in the filter is Gold. Am I still on track or did I somehow take a detour? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


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## g_axelsson

Nopyrite, two observations...
1. You say that you dropped the gold with SMB but you never mentioned that (or how) you dissolved it in the first place.
2. 20 grams of gold plated e-scrap is not much and would probably be hard to see even if it drops in your jar.

/Göran


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## lazersteve

Check to make sure you are using bisulfite and not bisulfate.

What did the stannous test show before adding SMB?

Steve


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## goldsilverpro

If the material was worth $60/pound (which may be overly optimistic), you would only get .068 grams of gold (a sphere about 1/32" in dia., if my math is right) from 20 grams of scrap. That tiny amount can easily get lost in the shuffle. Better start thinking in working pounds of scrap.


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## Nopyrite

g_axelsson, I forgot to mention that I had used the A/P method to dissolve.

Lazersteve, I purchased the SMB online a few months ago. The package is not labeled. If what I have is the wrong stuff, this would explain much of the travails I have been dealing with since trying to learn how to do refining on a small scale. I have just about decided that this is one activity that I cannot master. I have studied and read and tried to follow instructions to a fault, but mostly have wound up making only messes.

goldsilverpro, you are right. I have been trying to get the process right and playing around with a little e-scarp that was laying around. I am retired here in Florida and this looked like something fun to do, but I think I should move on to something else. (besides, maybe my wife will stop yelling at me now about all the tiny holes that seem to be appearing in my clothes.)


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## philddreamer

Hi Nopyrite!

Don't be discouraged. I know how you feel. My wife has been complaining about everything from day one! The PC's, the chemicals, my clothes smell like clorox, blah, blah, blah... :roll: 
I wasn't getting much gold either which added to the blahs, so I started buying scrap that has more gold. So yesterday, when she saw the cash I got for selling scrap karat I refined, she opened up I sold me her scrap karat & my daughter too! The complining, & skeptisism finally stop. :mrgreen: I got a green lite now. I guess I just had to show them "the green $$$".
So, I suggest, get some material that contains more gold & give it another shot brother! :lol: Don't give up your "dream"!

Philddreamer


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## Nopyrite

philddreamer - thanks for the words of encouragement. As I still have some Gold filled watch bands and a couple lb of Gold board fingers laying around, perhaps I will give it another go. I am going to toss out the batch of SMB though as I do not trust it. I may try some copperas instead if I can find it. Holy crap, you are the man. You got your wife to turn over her Gold AND stop yelling at you. That is amazing and the only thing keeping you from Superstar status is the statement that your wife also gave you your daughter. WARNING! Be on the alert. This may have been a clever trick perpetrated by your wife in order to get her hands on your treasure. Kids, especially Girls are not much good for anything and the longer they hang around, the less Gold one seems to have.


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## philddreamer

No, my wife didn't give me my daughter, my daughter also sold me her gold. :lol:
I just finished refining, & it weighed 22.5gm + another 9.6gm from yesterday
puts me in the 3.55oz marker on my way to 5 oz. :mrgreen: 

philddreamer


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## Nopyrite

philddreamer, that is even better than I thought. You must have the gift of persuasion. I have to constantly hide my Gold to keep my wife from pilfering it. You on the other hand are able to talk your WIFE and DAUGHTER into giving you their GOLD. Have you ever thought about going into politics?


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## philddreamer

:roll:


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## GrailSeeker

Regarding the multiple uses of the cell. Normally how much quantity of material would 2lt of sulphuric acid be able to handle before it requires discarding? And what is the proof in the naked eye to see if it is neutralised completely?


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## lazersteve

GrailSeeker said:


> Regarding the multiple uses of the cell. Normally how much quantity of material would 2lt of sulphuric acid be able to handle before it requires discarding? And what is the proof in the naked eye to see if it is neutralised completely?



Sulfuric acid from the gold stripping cell is reusable so it won't be discarded aside from losses from spills and such.

Steve


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## GrailSeeker

Given that the item to be stripped contains only metals and no synthetic or pcb chunks and cover the cell when not in use, right?


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## gold4mike

Steve has said that concentrated Sulphuric Acid has a great affinity for water and will take it out of the air so covering it when not in use is a must. 

That brings up a question - I have covered mine only with a glass lid and it's been that way for roughly a year since my last use. Should I siphon off the clear acid from the top of my cell and heat it to drive off the water that has migrated into it before using it again?


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## goldenchild

Nopyrite said:


> philddreamer - thanks for the words of encouragement. As I still have some Gold filled watch bands and a couple lb of Gold board fingers laying around, perhaps I will give it another go. I am going to toss out the batch of SMB though as I do not trust it. I may try some copperas instead if I can find it. Holy crap, you are the man. You got your wife to turn over her Gold AND stop yelling at you. That is amazing and the only thing keeping you from Superstar status is the statement that your wife also gave you your daughter. WARNING! Be on the alert. This may have been a clever trick perpetrated by your wife in order to get her hands on your treasure. Kids, especially Girls are not much good for anything and the longer they hang around, the less Gold one seems to have.



If you have a couple pounds of gold fingers lying around I would process those. If you are following all directions to a tee you will surely get a few grams out of them. I recently processed 3 pounds of fingers and got 7.4 grams of the good stuff. Best of all this is a process where both recovery and refining can be completed 100% without the use of nitric acid. Be warned however... Once you get your first bit of gold to drop you will be hooked. This is your only chance to turn back :lol:


----------



## husker4515

Hey guys what kind yields are getting from 200 grams of plated chains?


----------



## jimmyreece

this may be a stupid question but can i use the cell for silver,rhodium, and platinum plated items also ?


----------



## goldsilverpro

jimmyreece said:


> this may be a stupid question but can i use the cell for silver,rhodium, and platinum plated items also ?



You only need to ask your question once. On the other thread where you asked this exact same question, I answered: Ag - yes, Pt - maybe, Rh - no.


----------



## Acid_Bath76

bklopsy said:


> Steve
> I have completed a little over 20 pounds of plated material and have expired the copper meshes purchased from you. My question is, is there a stainless steel mesh? I have taken a real interest in recovery using the cell method but copper contamination and life span of copper mesh are an issue
> Brooks


 I was wondering the same thing. I have come to acquire a distaste for Cu. A stainless steel mesh would be nice. Either way, I'm having a hard time trying to find copper OR stainless steel type mesh. Where can you get this stuff? Other than online? Lowes? Home Depot? Walmart?


----------



## joem

Acid_Bath76 said:


> bklopsy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve
> I have completed a little over 20 pounds of plated material and have expired the copper meshes purchased from you. My question is, is there a stainless steel mesh? I have taken a real interest in recovery using the cell method but copper contamination and life span of copper mesh are an issue
> Brooks
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering the same thing. I have come to acquire a distaste for Cu. A stainless steel mesh would be nice. Either way, I'm having a hard time trying to find copper OR stainless steel type mesh. Where can you get this stuff? Other than online? Lowes? Home Depot? Walmart?
Click to expand...

 Some Michael's craft stores have it, look for wireform


----------



## Geo

bklopsy said:


> Steve
> I have completed a little over 20 pounds of plated material and have expired the copper meshes purchased from you. My question is, is there a stainless steel mesh? I have taken a real interest in recovery using the cell method but copper contamination and life span of copper mesh are an issue
> Brooks


stainless steel is highly reactive to sulphuric acid so a stainless steel basket will not work.copper is not very reactive to sulphuric acid unless the acid is heated to the point the acid will attack the copper and degrade your basket hence the need to disconnect the power occasionally and let the cell cool down.if you'll notice the basket will tend to degrade more at the point where the wire is creased and i believe that if you bend the mesh at a right angle it causes the wire to heat more at that point so i would recommend that you bend the wire in a gentle curve instead of right angle creases and stop the reaction more often to allow the solution to cool as this will extend the life of your basket.


----------



## lazersteve

The keys to a long lived copper mesh is concentrated electrolyte, cell temperature below 60C, and careful drying of the mesh after each rinse. I've tried all sorts of stainless steel and they don't compete with copper. Perhaps you have a different problem with your setup causing the copper to erode.

Steve


----------



## Acid_Bath76

lazersteve said:


> The keys to a long lived copper mesh is concentrated electrolyte, cell temperature below 60C, and careful drying of the mesh after each rinse. I've tried all sorts of stainless steel and they don't compete with copper. Perhaps you have a different problem with your setup causing the copper to erode.
> 
> Steve



I've had similar results. I tried the stainless steel basket, and I'm glad I tried it earlier on in my experiments. It didn't last long at all. As for copper alligator clips, be sure you double check the clips before you buy them. I bought a dozen smaller copper clips, only to find that they were plated in a very thin coat. It didn't take long at all for them to erode and start to contaminate my electrolyte, and this was well below 60C! I finally just saved myself the time and money looking for replacements locally, and picked it on Lazersteve's website.


----------



## jimmyreece

You only need to ask your question once. On the other thread where you asked this exact same question, I answered: Ag - yes, Pt - maybe, Rh - no.[/quote]



yes you did answer it and thank you. i thought i had submited my question in the wrong section, thats is why its in there twice. anf thank you again


----------



## jmdlcar

lazersteve said:


> Here's my latest version of what to do next:
> 
> When your cell is full you should:
> 
> 
> Let all the black powder settle
> Pour off the bulk of the concentrated sulfuric acid. Don't worry about the small amount of residual black powder that is in the acid that is poured off as you can get it on the next batch.
> The remaining acid with the bulk of the black powder in it should be slowly added (let it cool before adding more) to five or six times it's volume of water.
> Stir this very well and allow to settle again.
> Siphon off the colored solution. Repeat this process until the wash is no longer colored.
> Test a few drops of the rinse water with a drop or two of 3% unscented clear household ammonia, if the rinse water turns blue when the ammonium hydroxide is added, copper is still present and more rinsing is required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dissolve the black powder with AR or HCl-Cl and proceed as typical for these processes.
> The concentrated acid that was poured off is used in your next cell run as is. Hot concentrated acid is very dangerous, so exercise extreme caution when handling it. Never add water to concentrated sulfuric acid/powder mixture, add the acid/powder slowly to the water instead.
> 
> 
> Steve



Is there a first part or what I would need to make or build it?

Jack


----------



## jimdoc

Check Lazersteve's website he has a video.
http://www.goldrecovery.us/
and here;
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=52&start=50
at the bottom of the page.

Jim


----------



## vegaswinner

I've read the thread and still don't understand the purpose of the glycerin in the cell, admitted I could have read it at the beginning and forgot now im at the end :?: Am I understanding correctly a concentrated sulphuric acid does not require the additional glycerin? the drain cleaner I got says 97% whilst the battery acid is 37%.

Just a suggestion for heat control using the mesh, make sure the connections are good. A loose connection to the mesh would also generate excess heat.


----------



## jimdoc

The glycerin is not needed.

Jim


----------



## martyn111

Apparently the glycerine is not needed, Lazersteve has confirmed this in a post somewhere but I am unable to pinpoint its whereabouts at the moment


----------



## ryobie1

My cell has been running 4 days now with liquid fire drain cleaner and no glycerin. I have read posts both for it and against it.

A trick I found for heat is sipmle yet very effective. I use an over sized lead cathode and store it in the cold. It only works for the first run of the day but it's something. Also the more acid you have to heat up the longer it can run with out over heating.

I notice when mine runns hot the copper starts to erode.


----------



## kjdave

Great info thanks for the detaled discussion.


----------



## 98ram

Nopyrite said:


> Steve, I have received the parts from you that I had ordered and now my cell is up and running. I think I could have chosen a better drain cleaner though for my first run. I picked up a bottle of Liquid Lightning (red label) at Wall-Mart. It is kind of dark brown with a light syrupy texture right out of the bottle. I must say though that it does a good job of stripping the Gold. However, it soon builds a thick foamy layer of bubbles on top about the same consistency as the head on a glass of Guinness. Since this is a test run, I have shut the cell down and I will let the thick, dark mixture settle for 24 hours per your instructions. The part I like the most about this process is the fact that the sulfuric can be used again (though I am not crazy about Liquid Lightning) after filtration thus creating less waste to deal with. I have a bit of a crazy question concerning the rinse/cathode storage water. Should the water be processed for values or just treated and discarded? Thanks again to all on this site for your help.





i know im new but i just ran a test with battery acid and found it works great oreilly's sells 6 quarts of it for like 12 bucks so its pretty cheap filled up a coffee pot of it and boiled it down half way. noticed gold flake and a black powder so maybe keep that in mind as a possablity this was my first time every refining gold so im super excited lol. hope its ok i post that about the acid. the only thing i havent figured out yet is the reddish powder stuck to the stainless steel but it flakes off?.


----------



## butcher

98ram,

If your doing this for the concentrated sulfuric acid gold stripping cell, boiling down 32% H2SO4 battery acid about half way down would not give you the concentration of acid you need to run the cell properly, you would still have about 30% water, which would attack base metals in the cell, the battery acid will work better if boiled down until you see white fumes of SO2 gas evolving, but this can be extremely dangerous.

Boiling concentrated sulfuric acid is terribly dangerous, and if you splashed or spilled this acid on you or a boiling vessel broke which they often do, and this acid ran down into your boot or shoe it could cripple you as the acid ate your flesh to the bone, before doing this be sure you understand the dangers, and take all of the safety precautions, buying the cheap store bought drain cleaners, are a much safer way to get the acid, without the dangers of devastating acid burns when something went wrong, or Murphy’s law decided to poke its ugly head out.

Although recycling the acid you will have to re-concentrate it, if doing this be sure you research the dangers and wear the proper protective gear.

The reddish powder is probably base metal like copper, it may even have some values cemented out with it, so I would check for that or use the copper in some other recovery process.


----------



## 98ram

Thank you butcher for the information. Yeah I understand the dangers of acids and I do take extreme caution and I slowly evaporate the water from acid barely bringing it to a boil. I realized today that when I tried running a second deplating in the same acid that it barely did anything so I see your point and im going to look into the drain cleaners because i dont want to boil it every run i have a big box of plated jewlry that would take a long time lol. What would you recomend for drain cleaner?


----------



## butcher

Look for 98% sulfuric acid drain cleaner, here it sometimes comes in a red bottle, they will normally have a plastic bag over the bottle, liquid fire is one brand I buy, at the hardware store. I think Roto is another brand (I have a bad memory and no jug to look at here).

These safety precautions are always good to state even if you understand them other new members may not understand them.

Take care when diluting the acid after using your cell; always pour the concentrated acid carefully into water. (Never pour the water into the acid),

(One way to remember this is the drain cleaner can be poured into the water in the toilet, but the toilet water is never poured into the bottle of drain cleaner).

If reusing the acid after getting the gold out it can be concentrated by boiling the sulfuric acid has a very high boiling point and will azeotrope around 98% before the acid beins to break down and form a white smoke of sulfur dioxide fumes.

This is very dangerous procedure to concentrate the sulfuric acid, so if doing so you need to be very careful, read up on safety practices, and wear protective gear, like a full face shield lab apron, long arm sulfuric acid resistant gloves thick, fold or roll cuffs of gloves so acid will not run down glove to your arm, rubber boots with the tops tapped up, so your boot will not fill with hot acid, and fume precautions, let solutions cool before trying to transfer any liquids, make sure the containers used can handle heating or what your doing with them, prepare your self with a good understanding of the safety procedures before trying to concentrate hot sulfuric acid, the burns received from an accident with this hot concentrated solution could cripple a man.


----------



## 98ram

Thank you I will definitly look into that. I'm tired of boiling down the battery acid every time and I'm ALWAYS (REALLY REALLY not a good way to boil for other noobs) worried about the coffee pot breaking when being boiled. So I heat it on low or just under water boiling point just to try and be a little safer but take a long time to evaporate the water. Just alittle info on sulfuric my step dad was using a bucket of it (not labeled) as a step stool and his leg went through the lid and he spent 6 months in the hospital because it dissolved the skin and some muscles he almost lost his foot. He now has permant scares, nerve damage, and some lose of feeling in his leg and foot. So please everyone make sure extreme caution and safety is used with ALL acids and chemicals are used because damage to yourself and others is not worth all the gold in the world.


----------



## butcher

Look into Laser Steve's web site and his older posts, to get a better understanding of the sulfuric acid stripping cell, the link can be found in his signature line in one of his posts.


----------



## Marcel

I tested the gold cell a few weeks ago.
First setup was a SS pot that served as anode and a copper mesh.
The pot corroded (it was welded from two pieces) and ended up as scrap.
The second run was made by using a pyrex dish, a copper mesh as kathode and a massive lead anode, made from projectiles I collected at the local shooting range.
All worked fine ( I amde a small vid on that)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0MwKGjpeSs&feature=share&list=UUfLyhY6QoK7lThHYKvxt4gA[/youtube]


But I experienced 2 major problems:
I was processing goldplated pins - fine stuff with high yield plating - and as I switched to one type of another, which appearently was made of bronze inside, I ran into trouble.
I suppose the gold was plated back onto them, because they came out black.
Secondly I tried to recover the gold from what was 1 Kg of material. I used the glasswool method and filtered the liquid through the cloaked funnel.
Recovering my gold from this solution was a nightmare. The sludge was trapped inside the glasswool, I had to fiddle a lot and to use several washes etc. to get it out there.
The result after all this hazzle was very disappointing (maybe 0,1g max).
My solution is still black, so I suppose there is still most of the gold in there, a big portion of the pins also remained black, using an ultrasonic I was able to recover some and test it, it is goldpowder cemented back..

In addition I had a large spill (which I call my private Fukushima) when I filled the solution into a plastic container, that was dissolved by it and 2l of concentrated sulphuric acid were released in my bathroom. Great! 
Took me 2 days and 5 Kg of quartzsand to clean this mess up.

For me the cell is not a solution for the recovery of the fine gold plated pins. I find it rather suitable for larger objects such as jewlery, where you dont have to mess with so many different underlying metals that may cause cementing and the surface of the material is much lowerd compared to their weight.
Then again the recovery from the solution is an aweful nightmare to me. I had hefty losses, troubles with the strong acid and only a partial release of gold from the solution.

I am just building a large AP tank to process this kind of material with a lareg AP setup. I will incorpoarte a copperrecovery cell and keept the volume of solution smaller and fresher this way. 
Goldcell for pins is no good solution to me.


----------



## gold4mike

Marcel,

Please share with us your progress on implementing the large AP tank and copper recovery cell design. 

I'm beginning to think along the same lines you are, especially for low to mid grade pins.


----------



## butcher

Marcel, it seems you have the naming of anode and cathode backwards in your discription, although you do have the correct polarity.


----------



## kadriver

Edited twice for content to clarify part of the process and to add a picture

I do remember being confused when it was time to harvest the gold (black gold powder) from my sulfuric acid stripping cell.

The acid had turned a dark color and it was hard to see when the gold powder had settled.

Also, being new to refining, I was very impatient and tended to rush. Resist the urge to push ahead when your material is still settling.

The idea is to get the black powder into a filter paper so it can be incinerated - sulfuric acid will dissolve filter paper so it must be washed out before filtering.

1) first let the cell sit for several days to allow the black gold powder to settle as much as possible. Shine a bright light through the acid in the cell to check that the powder has settled. The acid is viscous and it takes a long time for the gold powder to settle completely.

2) once settled, carefully decant the acid off by siphoning - don't attemp to pour it off because the black powder will get disturbed and be poured off with the acid - I used 3/16 inch ID plastic tubing from the hardware store. Get as much of the acid out as possible without disturbing the black gold powder. Don't suck on the tube to get the flow started, use a syringe to start the flow available on Ebay. Slightly elevate one side by placing a folded up paper towel under one side to get the acid to drain to the side with your siphon tube.

3) fill a large container (I used a 3 liter jar from the thrift store) about 3/4 full of distilled water (you can use tap water instead if no DH2O is available).

4) using an old flexible kitchen spatula, carefully scrape out the black gold powder and remaining acid from the stripping cell container into the large container of distilled water. Rinse the spatula in this same water to get all the gold powder off of it as well.

5) once you have all the black gold powder and remaining sulfuric acid in the water, stir it up real good to wash the acid from the powder and let it settle completely - over night is best.

6) next day when the powder has settled completely, siphon off the rinse water to a waste container. Don't try to pour it off becasue the black gold powder will get disturbed and get poured off with the rinse water. Get as much of the water as possible by slightly tilting the container, but be careful not to let any of the black powder get sucked up the siphon tube.

7) repeat this several times, and if you have them, test the pH of the rinse water with pH test strips until you get close to neutral. This lets you know that the acid has been removed. I would guess that at least 5 or 6 washings would do it.

8) after the last siphoning of wash water, pour the black gold powder into a filter paper to filter out the black gold powder. This powder is so fine that some of it will probably go through the filter paper and end up in the filtrate under the funnel. If this happens, just run the filtrate back through the same filter paper with all the black gold powder in it until the filtrate runs clear.

9) treat the resulting black powder as if it were full of lead, tin, and other base metals just like gold filled scrap from this point:

10) remove the filter with the black powder in it and place it in a pyroceram dish (a corningware casserole dish) DON'T ATTEMPT TO USE A PYREX DISH BECAUSE IT WILL EXPLODE IF HEATED WITH A DIRECT FLAME OR ON TOP OF A BURNER. You MUST use a corningware dish like the ones shown in the picture below. Pyrex glass (even though it is heat resistant) will not stand up to this type of useage.

11) using a propane torch with only about a 1/2 inch flame, incinerate the black powder and filter so that the filter burns completely to ash and all the powder has been turned red hot by the small flame. Avoid melting the black gold powder. If you use a larger flame then it will blow your gold out of the dish and cause loss of your hard earned gold powder!

12) once the filter and black powder has been incinerated, then let the corningware dish cool and add some full strength hydrochloric acid right in the corningware dish - about 100 to 200ml depending on how much black powder you have. This will loosen any bits that tend to adhere to the bottom of the corningware dish (like deglazing a frying pan with white wine) and you can use some fresh HCL, to rinse the gold powder into your beaker with a pipette. The amount of HCl you add is not critical. This acid addition will remove metal salts and any other base metals that may still be present that will dissolve in concentrated hydrochloric acid. It will then need to be removed by siphoning or being drawn off with a pipette and put in a waste container.

13) transfer everything to a heat resistance 600ml beaker being carefull that the HCl with the black gold powder in it does not run down the side of the corningware dish as you pour it into the beaker and end up on your work surface (instead of in your beaker).  the reason you transfer everything to the beaker is so you can allow everything to settle completely (overnight is best) and then siphon off, or draw off this waste acid and get rid of it - don't try to pour it off becuase the settled powders will bloom into a cloud before you get it all poured out of the beaker - SIPHON OR DRAW THIS WASTE ACID OFF WITH A PIPETTE.

14) allow the black gold powder to settle completely then decant the acid with a transfer pipette (I like to use the 7ml plastic disposable kind) and get rid of the acid to a waste container. Get as much of the acid as possible being careful not to let any of the black gold powder get in the pipette,  then throw it away into a waste container because it contains impurities that you dont want mixed in with your gold powders.

15) next add some fresh hydrochloric acid to the beaker and place it on low heat with a watch glass (or saucer) cover to keep the fumes in the beaker.

16) begin adding small amounts of nitric acid to form aqua regia. The black powder will dissolve very quickly as it is in a finely divided state. Add the nitric acid 1/2 ml at a time with low heat until all the black powder has dissolved. Some dirt may be present that will not dissolve, add the nitric slowly to avoid overshooting. If you overshoot with nitric additions, then you will have to get rid of the excess nitric acid by adding some urea or by evaporating down to a syrup and adding HCl to drive off the excess nitric acid.

17) once all the gold powder has dissolved, add 10 drops of sulfuric acid to precipitate out any lead as lead sulfate - it will get trapped in the filter and removed later on.

18) now filter the gold chloride solution to remove solids and any lead that precipitated. Rinse the filter clean with distilled water so that no traces of color are left in the filter paper.

19) if the gold chloride solution is cloudy, then you may have to pour it back through the same filter paper until the resulting liquid is crystal clear.

20) next precipitate the pure gold powder by adding sodium metabisulfite to the gold chloride solution. Add it a teaspoon at a time and stir. When the foam from stirring begins to turn white (from yellow) then the gold precipitation is almost complete. Test the solution with stannous chloride to make certain that all the gold has precipitated. If the test indicates that there is still gold in solution then add some more sodium metabisulfite and restest with stannous chloride.

21) once the pure gold powder has settled completely (overnight is best), decant the liquid to a waste container and begin washing the pure gold powder with boiling distilled water - takes about 5 or 6 washings with boiling distilled water (about 300ml distilled water per wash) to get all the chemicals out of the powder.

22) with the powder washed free of chemicals, add some strong ammonia (10% industrial strenght from the hardware store is OK, but 29% ammonium hydroxide is better) and boil the gold powder for several minutes in the ammonia.

23) decant the ammonia to a waste container and rinse the pure gold powder with boiling distilled water 5 or 6 times or until the smell of ammonia is gone from the gold powder.

24) add some 50/50 dilute nitric acid (50% concentrated nitric acid and 50% distilled water) about 50ml to 100ml of each to the pure gold powder - this will dissolve out any base metals that made it this far in the process. Cover with a watch glass or saucer and boil for about five minutes. Keep a cover on at all times because this mixture will pop and spit hot acid and gold out of the container - don't walk away from it as it boils. If it starts to pop, then remove from the heat with beaker tongs until it calms dowm, then continue boiling.

25) decant the dilute nitric acid and save it because although it may contain impurities, it can be used to dissolve silver or inquarted karat gold scrap. Make sure and label the container "used dilute nitric acid".

26) rinse with boiling distilled water 5 or 6 times and transfer the now clean and pure gold powder to a drying dish - I like to use corningware casserole on low heat.

27) once the pure gold powder is dry, transfer to a melting dish and melt the pure gold powder into a buttom. Remove the buttom from the melt dish with CLEAN metal tweezers before it glues to the bottom of the melt dish, and then dunk it in cold water.

28) if some flux adhered to the gold button, you can dissolve it off with a 5% solution of sulfuric acid (10ml concentrated sulfuric acid added to 200ml clean water). Heating the acid on low heat will hasten the flux removal.


----------



## lazersteve

Great post Kevin, 

I merged your post with the existing thread on the same topic.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous

From the time I've been a member here and reading so much, to me, by far, this is one of the best threads I've read. One reason is because I've already done some refining of keyboard mylars with great success, been reading and learning the vocabulary and terminology of the words of this field and kept on reading.

Since I've done my initial batch of refining for silver, I'm ready to do my sulfuric cell. I have everything needed and I have plenty of gold plated material.

Everyone of you like lasersteve, Barren Realms 007, philddreamer, goldsilverpro, and special thanks to kadriver for the post on page 5, gave me more of an understanding and confidence to do this. I'm ready, but, unfortunately it's raining outside and it's going to do it for a few days as of now.

Reading this thread helped me understand what is to be done all because I've been reading and looking up the words and understanding their meanings. I kid you not, I wish I had a fume hood right now. The instructions and replies were great because I followed this from the first page to the last and I reread it too, just to pick up on more that I may not have understood. I can do this.. safely too.

I do have a few questions though.

*Q1.* After all the gold have been stripped in the cell, could I let it cool down, then pour everything into a beaker, then after that settles overnight, siphon the solution out, back into the cell to reuse?.. leaving the black mud in the beaker and process from there?

*Q2.* When *kadriver* talks about step no# 23, do each time have to settle overnight?

Once again, this thread and forum has opened up my mind and my eyes even more, because I understand more, because I'm reading more.

Kevin


----------



## lazersteve

Yes you can transfer the liquid and black powder to a separate container. A few notes of caution:

1. *Transferring concentrated sulfuric acid is a very dangerous operation, so suit up properly and have a spill catch just in case.*

2.* Do not add water to the concentrated acid. *Diluted acid cannot be used for the cell. This is why I simply recommend letting settle over night and pouring off the transparent portion of the acid as you will have to have some means of rinsing the gold powder from the bottom of the cell.

3. It is possible to vacuum filter the concentrated acid to recover the black powder with proper filters ( Teflon or polypropylene). This is the best way in my opinion if you don't mind waiting for the vacuum to finish as the filter easily clogs.

4. It is possible to gravity filter using a fiberglass 'charmin plug', search for phildreamer's posts on fiberglass plugs.

I used to do all the rinses on my black powder, but I have since realized it is much easier to rinse once and dissolve directly in AR. It's much faster to refine twice with proper filtering between each step and obtain high purity gold. When working will larger batches the law of diminishing returns takes over and it is counter productive to perform all of the in between rinses which consume lots of time for the same end result.

Be safe and good luck!

Steve


----------



## core

Hello all,

I am trying to find out which metals will precipitate out of an hcl/cl to make aucl3 then dropping with msb? 

I have a batch of pins that produced foils that i filtered, dissolved in hcl/cl, and precipitated with smb as per lazersteve's acid peroxide video. I have a nice brown powder as expected.

Ok, Im fine on all of that. My question has to do with the black powder that has accumulated as the reaction continues. This is my first run and I had already started the pins before I read that ap is not the preferred process for these. What all is in the black powder from acid peroxide process?

I assumed that continuing to rinse with warm hcl on the black powder until it clears up and stops turning green is what im supposed to do. Then I read that you process your black powder from the cell through ar twice after a rinse.

I havent graduated to auqaregia yet..... so can I dissolve the black powder in hcl/cl? What comes along with the gold in the precipitate of aucl3 using smb to drop?

Not that im lazy, but the rinse and settle then decant process is going on and on and on. And what could be eliminated if you did a second hcl/cl dissolution and drop the gold with smb again?

Im getting excited to see my first gold button, I just dont want to get in too big of a hurry and mess something up or end up with an inferior product.

I thank all of you gurus for your great wisdom and experience. I dont want to waste your time, I just wanted to let you know that I have searched and searched the forum before posting.


----------



## lazersteve

You can refine the dirty black powder from Acid Peroxide reaction and copper cemetation using HCl/Cl as long as it is wet and finely divided. HCl/Cl has a hard time with dried chunks of material. You'll likely have to perform two refining passes on the black powder to get the purity up to par.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous

On *step 12* above, wouldn't it be easier to let the Corningware dish cool first, then transfer everything to the 600 ml heat resistant beaker, then add the HCL? It seems that if it's all done in the dish first, then transferred, it'll leave much room for spills.

Also, do the HCL need to be just above the powder, or how much are we suppose to use? Do we weigh the powder first?

Kevin


----------



## kadriver

lazersteve said:


> Great post Kevin,
> 
> I merged your post with the existing thread on the same topic.
> 
> Steve



I wondered what happened to it, Thanks Steve.

testerman; yes let the dish cool before adding the HCl. I just did a batch of gold filled and forgot to let the dish cool. As soon as I started to add the acid, the hot dish began to spatter my hard earned gold foils all over the place!

kadriver


----------



## kane333

Hey all. I have read this and http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17058&hilit=black+powder&start=20 multiple times to see if I was missing what I'm looking for. The steps are to add H2SO4 to AR to precipitate lead sulfate out of solution. My problem is, I don't have HNO3. I was going to use the HCL/CL route to dissolve the black powder. I've washed the black powder 8 times in bottled drinking water (better than our well water I hope) to get rid of the bluish green tint (copper?).

One thing I've used to my advantage over all these washes is to heat the solution slightly, just turning my burner up to warm. I've found that it helps the powder settle quicker since solids cool quicker than liquids. The black powder will almost completely settle within 1-2 hours using a little bit of heat, then allowing the solution to cool to room temp, I've found. I'm using a 500ml boro beaker in a sand bath which is inside of a pyroceram dish on my burner. After warming slightly, I remove from the sand bath to help the solution cool quicker. Without this slight warming technique, I've had to wait overnight for the powder to settle completely and could only get in one wash per day. 

I've also washed the powder 3 times in straight HCL and it's sitting in my beaker at the moment in 100ml of HCL with about 20ml of H2O2, which is now yellowish green, using no heat. This yellowish green solution, I've tested with stannous and it comes back negative. My question is, when do I add the H2SO4 to drop any lead sulfate which I presume may be present since we do use a lead cathode? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## jeneje

kane333 said:


> My question is, when do I add the H2SO4 to drop any lead sulfate which I presume may be present since we do use a lead cathode? Any suggestions would be appreciated.



kane333, if I understand this right you add 10 drops of H2S04 when you process the black powder in AR. I don't know if it will work in the HCL/Cl maybe someone else can answer that for you.

Ken


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## Tub Buster

lazersteve said:


> On the same track, the basket, if not properly formed around the pins will shield the pins in a 'Faraday Cage' that prevents the electrical current from passing through the pins to promote timely stripping of the scrap. The current will flow through the basket instead and decay it. This is known as the path of least resistance.


This only happens if the basket is at a higher elevation than the cathode. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the cathode higher?


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## lazersteve

In a short Pyrex dish like I used in the videos, the height of the cathode is limited to a few inches or less. It is much easier to lower the front edge of the copper mesh basket than it is to raise and properly support the cathode while keeping the cathode submerged in the acid.

Steve


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## Marcel

I talked to a guy last week ( who has a large e-scrap yard and has been into recovery for long) and he said that he would add in a copper bar to the remaining solution, which would make more black gold powder precipitate.
I told him that I do not understand this, because as far as I see it no gold goes into solution using the cell. (he used concentrated sulfuric acid and the setup that is being described in this thread here)
He leaves the copper bar in until the solution gets water-clear.
Btw: He uses the same process - in another cell - for silver plated cuttlery.

So, any thoughts? Can this really be gold that precipitates? Is there gold being dissolved in the cell process?


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## solar_plasma

Did I understand this right: He puts copper, which does not dissolve in cold, conc. sulfuric, into the same in order to cement gold, which also does not dissolve in sulfuric, by reduction of the gold and oxidation of the copper and then he gets a non-coloured waterlike sulfuric? Sounds strange to me.

Could it be traces of rhodium instead?


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## necromancer

its stated here that rhodium is dissolved in hot concentrated sulfuric acid and it is attacked by molten alkalis.

http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/rh.htm

i never thought gold could be dissolved in sulfuric acid.


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## wrightytighty

This is my first post.
I am going the "poor mans" route on the gold refining and had a few questions about kadivers list, which is awesome btw.

I am deplating jewlery from a sulphuric cell. I am doing the HCL/CL method to refine.

I have no nitric acid. 

I was wondering if step 17 on kadivers list would work with the HCL/CL method. 

"16) begin adding small amounts of nitric acid to form aqua regia. The black powder will dissolve very quickly as it is in a finely divided state. Add the nitric acid 1/2 ml at a time with low heat until all the black powder has dissolved. Some dirt may be present that will not dissolve, add the nitric slowly to avoid overshooting. If you overshoot with nitric additions, then you will have to get rid of the excess nitric acid by adding some urea or by evaporating down to a syrup and adding HCl to drive off the excess nitric acid.

17) once all the gold powder has dissolved, add 10 drops of sulfuric acid to precipitate out any lead as lead sulfate - it will get trapped in the filter and removed later on."

Also, I'm pretty sure I have silver in my powder, what would be the best way to deal with that if I avoid step 24

Is there anyway to remove silver from my powder so I can obtain a higher purity?

"24) add some 50/50 dilute nitric acid (50% concentrated nitric acid and 50% distilled water) about 50ml to 100ml of each to the pure gold powder - this will dissolve out any base metals that made it this far in the process. Cover with a watch glass or saucer and boil for about five minutes. Keep a cover on at all times because this mixture will pop and spit hot acid and gold out of the container - don't walk away from it as it boils. If it starts to pop, then remove from the heat with beaker tongs until it calms dowm, then continue boiling."


would my powder turn out okay if I skipped the above steps?

I appreciate this fourm and all the wisdom it has.


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## nickvc

When you strip gold plating using the sulphuric cell the powders are rarely pure gold but contain a mixture of various metals so it really doesn't matter which way you decide to refine them. Doing acid rinses at the start will help to remove more base metals as would incineration and a hot hydrochloric soak but the chances are you are going to have to refine your powder twice to get decent purity.
Keep up your studying and find a method that you have access to the necessary chemicals and equipment to be successful with, remember your gold is safe unless you throw it away.


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## MarcoP

By using HCl/Cl the silver with change into silver chloride which is pretty much insoluble in cold solutions.


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## FrugalRefiner

wrightytighty, if I've understood your questions, yes, adding a bit of sulfuric acid to an HCl/Cl solution will work the same as it will in AR. Any lead that is in the solution as a chloride will be precipitated as insoluble lead sulfate.

As far as silver goes, as Marco said, it becomes insoluble silver chloride (AgCl) when you're dissolving your powder. However, while AgCl is quite insoluble in water or dilute chloride solutions, it is somewhat soluble in strong chloride solutions. Once your gold is dissolved, we usually recommend diluting your solution with two or three times as much ice. The ice both dilutes the solution and cools it, both of which reduce the solubility of both AgCl and lead sulfate. Once the ice melts, filter the solution to remove any remaining solids and precipitate the gold from a crystal clear solution.

Despite your best efforts, there will still likely be some contamination in the precipitated gold. That's where the final washing procedures come in. Harold_V wrote up his washing procedures, and his procedure works very well.

Dave


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## jocelynholmes192

To know the whole process of how to separate the gold from electronic scraps. Go with this link: http://www.instructables.com/id/Gold-recovery/?ALLSTEPS here are all steps describing briefly to separate the gold from electronic scrap. I hope this link will help you a lot.


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## nickvc

jocelynholmes192 said:


> To know the whole process of how to separate the gold from electronic scraps. Go with this link: http://www.instructables.com/id/Gold-recovery/?ALLSTEPS here are all steps describing briefly to separate the gold from electronic scrap. I hope this link will help you a lot.




I hate to tell you but that particular route only removes some of the base metals and the final product will not be very pure...
We have detailed instructions here on the forum to do exactly this process but to do it properly and safely with further processes to finish with at least 995 gold.


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## Geo

Boy, from electronics to refined gold in eight easy steps. And to think of all the time I wasted trying to learn this stuff here when all I needed to do was download one pdf file and follow the "instructables". 

I'm sorry, I just had to. :lol:


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## g_axelsson

jocelynholmes192 said:


> To know the whole process of how to separate the gold from electronic scraps. Go with this link: http://www.instructables.com/id/Gold-recovery/?ALLSTEPS here are all steps describing briefly to separate the gold from electronic scrap. I hope this link will help you a lot.


He has only rudimentary knowledge of how to recover gold and none of refining. For example he is talking about 9K plating in electronics in the comment section.

He also misses all the gold in bond wires.

Göran


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