# Catalytic Converters - Small scale recovery/refining



## Anonymous

These guys, and I'm sure some other companies will do it for you.
http://www.specialtymetalsrefiners.com/catalytic_converters.htm
Minimum Lot: 500 catalytic converters or 1000 pounds of loose catalyst.

But what's the fun in that?
I'd rather do it myself.
Does anyone have experience processing catalytic converters?
I had this idea that perhaps the stuff could be crushed to a very fine powder and vibrated to let the heavy metals settle to the bottom. Perhaps in water with airstones bubbling up. I don't know what method could crush it that completely though. Also, the plating is on the surface of the beads/honeycomb/foil. I wondered if it could essentially be sanded off by rolling in something akin to a rock tumbler?

Or maybe just melt it all somehow. Cutting torch?


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## Noxx

It's better to learn how to recover it yourself than make it by someone else.
I totally agree !


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## socorban

dont cruch it and dont torch it, i have a whole lot of it and have been researching the best ways for months now.

So far what i ahev come to is you'll need the aqua regia but on a slightly larger scale you'll be working with 5 gallon buckets. You only want to break the monolyth into smaller pieces but not crush it all or you will be spending alot of effort extracting the precipitent from the crushed monolyth.

Also, although they are designed to handle heat, torch heat breaks down the monolyth, i discoverd that by accident cutting open many of them, i switched to a grinder with a cutting wheel and cut the casing in half to pull out each chamber.

What you want to do is cut out the monolyth and break them in half or 1/4 depending on the sizes and process them in aqua regia, for the bead style just dump them in in small amounts, i dont have any of the bead style from what i have found they have a lower content so i never botherd getting my hands on them.


Refiners are rediculous, they charge lot and assay fees, and usually poundage charges by the time there done sucking you dry it was hardly worth the effort.


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## lazersteve

I'm holding about 20 pounds of material to experiment with. Socorban it sounds like you are leading the forum pack on this subject so far. How about some pictures and overall instructions.

Thanks for being a part of the forum.

Steve


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## Noxx

Yes, I would appreciate if you could post some How-to guides or more infos with pictures (even videos). It always interesting


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## socorban

Well steve, so far ive just been doing research and hording monolyth, like a said a buddy of mine has a scrap yard and i get them for free from him i just gotts remove them. 

Since thats a larger scale operation to make it worth while i wanted to do that in my garage however its averaging 20 to 30 degrees here so ive been reluctant to do so yet, i plan to when it starts warming up, ive just put my efforts into the details so when its warm im ready to rock and roll.

Most of the info i have learned came from a sister in laws cousin who lives in arkansas, he laughs at gold (shame on him) and only deals with platinum, rhodium, and pallidium. mostly from the converters. I vistited them for a few week around the thanksgiving time and he showed me the process and results and was kind enough to show me the tricks of the trade, which sparked the overdrive initiative to hord the monolyth.

You want at least 50 pounds to make the efforts worth the work, i think its something like 1/5 ( i could be mistakin) gram per pound of the new converters, again, this number drops dramitically with use of the converters, GM larger trucks have the highest concentrate of platinum versus rhodium or other metals.

I have yet to find a vaild source of recovery stats per pound per model on the net but im looking.


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## lazersteve

I can't wait to get into this area of recovery. Platinum does blow Gold away for value, but not in beauty in my opinion. As for Rhodium it is the pinnacle of metals when value is concerned. I've collected a small amount of Rhodium plated scrap for a rainy day. Hopefully I can get around to processing it one day.

Steve


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## socorban

I agree steve, both about the beuty and the value ends. If no one posts info about it before it warms up here i will once its not hand numbing conditions here.

I want to work on my garage more this spring, seal it up better and make it heated so next winter i can do what i want when i want and not have to wait on the warm days, i was also planing on installing hood vents in there to work under for ventalation purposes.

I am anxious to to try these monolyth and get some platinum, however im aprehensive due to the difficulty of extracting some of the rhodium and pallidium becuase of there higher temp ranges.

Well just have to see how it gos, hopefully i can access more info on this purifying process, ot would be nice to have 3 seperat metal instead of 1 ball of 3 precious or not i like em singled out.


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## Anonymous

I've been trying to research myself for some time now, and found an excellent link here with a detailed overview of worldwide patented processes for PGM recovery. 
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5102632-description.html

Also, this PDF page contains an article on page 163 entitled "Precious Metal Recovery from spent Catalysts" It describes supercritical water oxidation, with 95%water 5% crushed monlyth material, and injected oxygen to reach a pressurized 600deg C slurry. This process disolves everything but the PGMs. Not exactly a weekend project, but it doesn't seem impossible that it could be done on a smaller scale somehow.
http://www.platinummetalsreview.com/pdf/141-200-pmr-oct03.pdf


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## jimdoc

Action Mining has a DVD that shows how to process converters,
and it is pretty good put about $120 or $199 bundled with the 
Fire assay DVD and a book on the CLS that they sell to process the material. You should be able to build you own system that they show in the DVD or they sell a System III that is just a bucket with a heater, motor to stir, and the plates with a filter bag.
The bigger one they show in the DVD is called the System IV and
they want about $8,000 plus freight. My guess is you will want to build your own, like I plan on doing. 

Also in my checking out info on O2 sensors I found one place that buys them but you need 1 ton shipped to them, and it worked out to 25 cents each after I weighed some and averaged them out. I have no idea how much platinum is in the I have only been collecting them so far.


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## lazersteve

Jim,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the great input. Could you post some photos?

Steve


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## jimdoc

Steve,
I will post pics when I get it done. I need to get the pvc pipe for the leaching columns, an acid proof pump, and some carbon plates.
Money is tight now, so it may be a while, but now that the weather
is getting nicer I will be working on it. I am planning on trying out your gold setup on some of the stuff I have saved up in the next few days.

Also I collect old Hammond organs to get the palladium wire, have you ever heard of anybody doing that? I have 18.5 dwt of pure pallladium wire and a bunch of contacts that I need to refine to seperate from the copper as the contacts are too small to pop off like I do the wire.
It is alot of work to get them apart and get the wire, but now I got a system and it doesn't take me that long. One more organ will put me over the ounce mark, and that will be my tenth organ since October. They average 2 dwt per organ plus the stuff that needs to be refined or seperated.
Jim


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## lazersteve

Excellent tip Jim! I've never heard of organ wire as a source of Pd. I can see you will be a great asset to the forum. If I can help you out in any way just post a new topic or PM me if you have a personal request. I'll be glad to help you out.

Steve


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## platinumill

Hi there,
I have built a machine I call the Platinumill. It reconers the PGM's from spent auto catalysts. It is by far the most easy to use Recovery machine. My base model will do around 40 converters. I am sell it for $4995. I will have different size models in the near future. It does use chemicals, but the machine has a ventilation system built in. Just put the roasted material in and turn it on. Check out my site at Platinumills.com
P.S my site needs work

:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: I'M A FRAUD :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


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## platinumill

sorry i posted twice......said there was an error the first time, but it actually posted


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## aflacglobal

Platinumill. LOL Oh my god i got one of these. Its a pretty versital machine. you can do all kind of things with it like????
It sure wasn't 5 Grand.

CHECK OUT MY MODEL ON ATTACHMENT.


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## sandhog

Wow FREE SHIPPING.........

Put me down for 2.

-Bill


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## platinumill

Yes I'm sure you didn't pay 5 grand for your system, which is nothing like the Platinumill, which, by the way, there is only 1 Platinumill.


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## aflacglobal

Not anymore. 

This market is big enough for the both of us. 

uh, hold on the phone's ringing : LONG PAUSE : 

You not going to believe it. ANOTHER SALE. hell yeah.
dude these thing are coming off the wall like hotcakes.
If this keeps up I'll have to go back to Lowe's. ( third , trip today i might add).

If this keeps up ,I think I'm going to throw up a link to my sky hook and plywood stretcher web site.

want to be a distributor ?
Anyway, let me know 50-50 right!!!!

Confucius say: buckeye must run fast, to catch kangaroo, for Internet connection.


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## platinumill

I couldn't see your picture. But anyway's, what could possibly be your problem? I don't think you know what your talkin about when it comes to the Platinumill. Are we on the same subject?


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## platinumill

Ok I have seen the picture of your Platinum mill, Yep just as I thought, you are totally off track. So, those dryers sell pretty fast huh? Thats pretty cool. Next time I need to buy one I'll know where to go. Those are top-O-D-line.


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## goldsilverpro

He was just pulling your leg. Stirring the pot.


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## platinumill

Yeah, I know, I was pullig back,


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## aflacglobal

Yeah,
gold silver is right. I was just joking. It's just i noticed most of your post are commercial in nature. Thought i would get some input, Any input.
I can see where you are coming from 100 %. 

People laugh at me too.  
No shit though, Tell us a little about what you are doing with these things.
I was in the scrap business at one time. I know the value i just don't know the process ?

As a matter of fact i think i seen where someone was actually discussing 
it here. I assume you know something of the process since you are marketing this item.

Try and fill us in on the processes. Give us your insight into this field.
Give us the marketing pitch. I'll listen.
hell i might give you one back. ( now that just sounds wrong ) :shock: 
Anyway the product won't sell itself. Plus you can help some of us fill in the gaps. 

Later,

Ralph


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## platinumill

It is an electrolytic, ion exchange leaching processed. Disolve and plate. Recover. I'm sorry if my post sound commercialized. I realyy do not intend to seem like a pushy seller. I am in the beginning stages of this project and things have started moving really fast. There are a lot of people wanting a load of info. I dont want to advertise my site anymore than I already have , but it has most of the info on the process.
Thank you,
Rob


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## aflacglobal

Preach on brother. I'm still here. break it down.Are you building a system for recovery by this method ? These guys can play devil's advocate pretty well. It's Imput.

Ralph


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## platinumill

I have a litte more time to give you some more info. I'll try and keep it short,even though I could write 50 pages on this process no problem. Like I said, I am not trying to sell anything here. I was invited to this forum a little while back to discuss the machine. What I have to offer is not just the Platinumill, but advice on how to optimize your profits for your converters.(such as getting paid for your waste material. I am willing to send some pictures through email. If you would like to see the basic design of the Platinumill, just email me at [email protected]

The Platinumill takes your converter material(honeycomb) and turns it into a more valuable, easier to transport product. After extracting the PGM's in the Platinumill, what you have is all three PGM's. It is actually called leaching resins. All we did with the Platinumill is recover the PGMs(Platinum, Palladium, and Rhodium) from the converter material. This is a recovery system, not a refining system. You will have all three PGMs mixed together. There are many refiners across the U.S that will take this material and pay you very well. Northern Refineries is just one example of a Refinery that will gladly take it. They pay 89% spot market price for Platinum. They pay you for the Palladium and Rhodium also.The good thing is most refiners are more than happy to take this material off your hands once they know what you have. 

Let's say you have 1 ton of converter material. If you took that material to the refiner, they would charge you per pound, also charge refining fees, assay fees, treatment charges, brokering fees, inbound troy ounce weight fees, handling fees and other fees. Then about one month later you will finally get paid based on the PGM content of your converter material. Oh yeah you have to pay one way or another to get the ton of converter material to the refiner. 

Let's say you have one ton of converter material that you decided to run in the Platinumill. That would be five batches. Five 200 pound batches. The Platinumill will take that ton of material and turn it into a smaller(handful) more valuable material that is very easy to transport anywhere and refiners will not charge you all those rediculous fee's and charges. For every six highgrade cats the Platinumill can pull out 1 ounze of PGMs(Platinum Group Metals) Some converter PGM contents are even higher than 1 ounce per 6 cats. Really the numbers are everywhere with these converters, but anyone that would be running the Platinumill should know the good ones. 
Your profits increase, bottom line. 

The Platinumill runs on 110. Just plug it in. Turn it on and let the machine do it's job. Check out my journal at Platinumills.com for some converter pretreatment procedures. I'm not a large operation and things are moving really fast for me, so thank you for your patience while I play catch up. I am also working on a video that I will have very soon going through the whole process. That will be available on my site in hopefully around 1 month. Also the picture gives you an idea of the machine size. It is 3ftx3ftx7-1/2ft tall. That is the basic design, but there are allot of components not shown in the picture due to the fact that I am working on the whole patent process right now.(It's taking forever) That doesn't matter anyways. 
Thank you for your interest,


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## jimdoc

Does it do the pellets also or just the honeycomb?


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## aflacglobal

Good luck man. Sounds like you got it pegged. 
I'll Be intrested to hear about it.

Ralph


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## platinumill

The machine will also do pellets or beads. I prefer to run the higher grade converters. I like to put the lower grade with my waste material. That helps bring up the PGM content of that waste material so the refiner don't get too mad at me. I prefer to extract 85-90% of the PGMs and let the refiner go after the remaining PGMs. That helps me get rid of my haz waste, and get paid for it. tricky,tricky


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## aflacglobal

Here, here.
You are exactly right. That's the way of thinking.
At least that's the way i think. lol

Make it somebodies elses problem. For the money your time may be better spent running production and not trying to get every bit out out.

That my system plan anyway. I want the gold and silver first. Then a lab can get the rest for me , while i do what i do best. MAKE MONEY.
I know guys some of us are in it for the hobby, but i need the money too.  

Somebody got to feed this cat. LOL

Ralph


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## platinumill

well iguess we are on the same page after all.  [/quote]


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## goldsilverpro

That's the same plan I used with some types of electronic scrap. Also, I used to leave just enough gold to cover refining charges in the cyanide stripping solution and and then I shipped the drums to a refiner. It used to be that this wasn't considered hazardous waste because there were still recoverable values in it. I don't know what the law is today. Sounds like one that has probably changed.

Thinking along the same lines. I always wondered about the toxic fluoride wastes, generated by the aluminum, phosphate, uranium, and other industries, that is shipped all over the U.S. to be put in our drinking water. Do they pay hazardous toxic waste shipping fees or, does it change status when they put it in a sack and label it? These corporations sure figured out an ingenious way to get rid of their toxic wastes and make money doing it.


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## platinumill

the converter material is actually considered haz waste, and you have to get rid of it somehow. It is very difficult to extract 100% of the PGMs, so I leave that 10-15% for the refiner.


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## aflacglobal

The Day silver became HAZ.

The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA) of 1976. This is the federal law passed by Congress which has been the foundation for all of the hazardous waste laws.

Precious metals in non-RCRA hazardous matrices (not hazardous wastes), like gold, platinum, or palladium are not regulated under EPA as a hazardous waste. 

The EPA does regulate precious metals like silver, or any precious metal containing hazardous constituents, like cyanides. Precious metals wastes destined for reclamation need only be labeled something to the effect of "silver salts for reclamation" or "scrap gold". 

However the EPA prohibits generator speculative accumulation of such materials and requires that 75% of the material be recycled per calendar year. Records showing the volume of the materials stored at the beginning of the calendar year, the amount received during the year, and the amount remaining at the end of the calendar year must be maintained.

Thus recyclers need to keep an accurate log and be able to demonstrate they are processing at least 75% of their accumulated stocks in a calendar year. 

Ralph


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## platinumill

Nice piece of info. Is it considered hazardous if it has been through an electrolytic ion exchange chemical leaching process? I heard that it may be, and have treated it as such ever since. If it isn't, well that would be great to know. Thanks for that info


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## aflacglobal

What is the Bevill Exclusion to RCRA?
Much of RCRA's history in mining regulation has involved rulemakings designed to determine which mining and mineral processing waste streams should be regulated as "hazardous waste." 

However, for a material to be a RCRA-hazardous waste, it must first fit the definition of a solid waste under RCRA (40 CFR 261).


Recycling spent solutions allows generators to decrease the amount of hazardous waste regulations they must comply with under 40 CFR 262. According to 40 CFR 266.70,

In other words if this waste was generated from any other source than precious metal recovery Raw or recycled. It would be considered toxic.


In October, 1980, RCRA was amended by adding section 3001(b)(3)(A)(ii), known as the Bevill exclusion, to exclude "solid waste from the extraction, beneficiation, and processing of ores and minerals" from regulation as hazardous waste under Subtitle C of RCRA. This exclusion held pending completion of a study and a Report to Congress, required by section 8002 (f) and (p), and pending a determination by the EPA Administrator either to promulgate regulations under Subtitle C or to declare such regulations unwarranted. 

1[W]ith respect to the mining and mineral processing wastes . . . this exclusion does not apply to solid wastes, such as spent solvents, pesticide wastes, and discarded commercial chemical products, that are not uniquely associated with these mining and allied processing operations." 45 Fed. Reg. 76,619 (1980).

2 [T]he Agency finds no compelling reason to provide exemptions for particular small volume wastes that may be associated with mineral processing operations, such as cleaning wastes. Many other industrial operations also generate such wastes, and EPA does not believe that the fact that current management involving mixing justifies continued regulatory exclusion for wastes that are not uniquely associated with mineral processing (and therefore are not defined as mineral processing wastes) and would not, in any event meet the high volume criterion." 54 Fed. Reg. 36,616 (September 1, 1989).

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title40/40cfr266_main_02.tpl

Their might be another market here for you. Ever hear of back end marketing ?

Hell if this stuff isn't hazzard waste, send it to me i'll be happy to take it for free and then keep the proffit. LOL

I think the same thing could be said about batteries, cell phones and oil.
They claim these can not be dumped in a landfill because they are considered hazzard waste, but yet they will be happy to take it off your hands. :shock: 

I'm sure their is a little more to it than just this, but i don't think it is so complicated that it can't be readly resolved.

I have learned that the EPA is mostly paperwork for us small guys.

I'm going to study this a little more.

Anyone else dealt with this issue ?

Later<

Ralph


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## platinumill

Ok, so it sounds to me that the catalyst material is not considered hazardous waste as long as you don't stockpile it. ? Does that sound right? Thanks for that great info.


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## aflacglobal

I'm still not certain it's not regulated in some way. but haz, no i don't think so.

Ralph


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## platinumill

right, right, I gotcha. So what do you do? Seem pretty smart.


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## aflacglobal

:shock: :shock: RED NECK :shock: :shock: 
<<<<<<<<<<<< He ain't right

LOL I'll fill you in a little later. Read some of my post.
Then again don't

Ralph


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## jimdoc

Here is a link to a turnkey catalytic converter
processing business on Ebay in case any of you 
guys have $3,800,000 laying around.
Everybody else might find it interesting.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150132932080&rd=1&rd=1


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## aflacglobal

I will check to. I don't know why but. Knowledge is power.
Looks like a building and some plastic. Platinumills will like this.

Poor sucker is more than likely trying to get out the business before the bottom drops out. Not the price the suppy. lol


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## aflacglobal

Alright. I know i ain't right sometimes, but i just had to see this 4 million in play. I sent this guy a little note with my corp name. Let's see what this scam is. :wink: 

Hell for 4 Million i'll build the dam thing. It has to come with the building or something ??? And then i'm not so sure about them numbers. lol

Sir,
Give me an idea of what you are trying to sell. 
Does the building come with it ? Do you have a customer base in place ? What are the operating Numbers.Do you currently have employees. Is the plant in current operation so i could view ? 

Do you currently have the proper EPA and state paperwork and permits in order and can these be transferred in ownership ? Are you currently a member of the MACT Group. What type of equipment or process does it employ. How dated is the equipment. Do you have the paperwork on the maintenance of the facility.
Just give me kind of an idea on somethings.


We shall see: Said the blind man.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Ralph


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## jimdoc

Ralph,
I knew you would like this one.
Platinumills will probably raise his price
when he sees it.
Jim


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## aflacglobal

Ok it's wednesday. I have emailed them 3 times now. :shock: 
You would think that for 4 Million they would be falling over each other to answer me. 

Yep !! that was a once in a life time deal and i let it go.  

Well theirs always Shore. :shock: 


Ralph


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## jimdoc

Check this out;
http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-to-Find-Platinum-in-Road-Dust-59263.shtml
I think I will still go after the catalytic converters instead of the dust.


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## aflacglobal

reckon what she would do if we told her about the gold in the ocean salt water. :shock:


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## mike.fortin

aflacglobal said:


> reckon what she would do if we told her about the gold in the ocean salt water. :shock:



My guess is she going to kiss a lot of fish. She shure going to be eating a lot of dust suckin platinum out of street sweepers. Mike


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## aflacglobal

Where is G.W. this is a story for him. lol


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## lazersteve

At one of my job sites, I see street sweeping debris on a regular basis from Elgin sweepers (large street sweepers). I administer the GPS software and data that tracks their sweeeping patterns around the local county as one of my many duties. 

I personally would not want to get anywhere near the gunk they sweep up!! 

Steve


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## jimdoc

Ralph,
This is back up on Ebay, now it is $450,000;

http://cgi.ebay.com/Precious-Metals-Refinery-from-Catalytic-Converters_W0QQitemZ150144283841QQihZ005QQcategoryZ92150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Did you ever get any answer from them before?


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## aflacglobal

go go kitty cat. I'm off on a new adventure. Sounds like a far cry from the price he did want. :shock:


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## mike.fortin

Guys--his starting bid is 450,000. Inside his ad he still wants 4 and half mil.
Mike.


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## lazersteve

Hey guys,

Looks like the sarting bid was $3.8 mil on bizexcel.com

Same Refinery Add

Interestingly the parent company, Convire USA, LLc. is omitted from the ebay auction. Maybe this guy is trying to middle man the deal?


Steve


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## lazersteve

Here's a follow up link to Convire from recycle.net:

Scroll Down to Convire

There is some other good info on this link too.

Convire is located in Lakeland Florida. Maybe if someone contacts James Faloni at Convire they can get the real story?

Steve


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## aflacglobal

only two pictures of this palce ever seems to have been taken. :?: 
If it was mine in would have a photo deck attached. lol

I'm looking, but i'm still not feeling 4.5 Million. Maybe it has 100 acres of land and chicks in shorts who brings your lunch.

I just want to know the scam. :twisted:


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## mike.fortin

Aflac--my dad always said be carefull of guys whos last names ends in vowells. Faloni is the contact name on lazersteves link. :shock: Mike.


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## aflacglobal

:wink: Meow :wink:


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## Noxx

You love this pic right ? :lol:
Lol


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## aflacglobal

One of my favorites. :wink:


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## jimdoc

Here is a story out today about platinum free fuel cell developed
in Japan; http://uk.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUKL1461117220070914

This is the part that got my interest;
"Currently, Daihatsu uses about 100 grams of platinum per vehicle in its hydrogen-based fuel-cell vehicles under development. Ordinary gasoline vehicles use about 5 gram per vehicle of platinum as a catalyst to filter out carbon monoxide and particulate emissions."

I can't wait to find a fuel cell car in the junk yard.


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## mespe

So, how hazardous is it to recycle cats? And if this guy selling the recycling plant on ebay is trying to sell it, why in the world would he be selling scrap cats too?


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## loco

any way of telling which converters are best and hold the most desired PGM's? and how much PGM's can be found in converters with beads or lesser grade converters (lower PGM content)? Are there ways to tell before decanning? and is there a catalog of sorts that list which converters are which? thanks.


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## jimdoc

Loco,
Check this site;

http://www.catmax.net/gallery.php

http://www.catmax.net/pricing.php

Converters change from year to year, and
I am not sure there is a way to tell without
an assay of each what is inside for sure.
Jim


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## loco

also I heard today that there was gold in converters to. is there any truth to this?


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## Platdigger

Platinumill, what percentage of recovery can one expect for the rhodium in cats with your system?
Randy


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## zauggart

hummm after reading i think ill stick to the plywood stretcher sounds like the best bet for me . and ill do more research as well . but first ill throw my idea unless somebody else already does it . build a cat refiner on the back of a tractor trailer and have it follow the car crusher to the car yards and process the cars and the cats for extra profit . have a percentage scale for payout etc . might work 
Ian


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## Anonymous

Hi everyone i have enjoyed reading the posts.. im just now learning about all of the different types of converters, and i appriciate that post for all the different price lists. But anyways i am wondering which would help me the most on the best profit.. Selling the CCs as a whole or selling the honeycombs? like i said im new at this and if there is a better way to produce this i would really appriciate the help..i have unlimited access to CCs because my neighbor owns a junkyard. My email is [email protected] so please post back or email me if you can help me out..

thanks hunter


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## Anonymous

If you just want to get rid of them without doing any reclamation, I would say...whole cats for local pickup and decanned for shipping. If you decan them, you might think about scrapping the iron locally.


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