# Modern use of PGMs



## Yggdrasil (Feb 10, 2022)

Hi it has been kind of a mystery sometimes how the value of some of the lesser used PGMs fluctuate.
Suddenly today when browsing an a scientific article regarding a Tokamak reactor, it dawned upon me. 
The combination of say Rhodium and Iridium in such a rector must be perfect. 
Iridium as a carrier and hightemp support and the close to perfect reflectivity of Rhodium.
Combined with their affinity to each other.

I do not claim to be correct or anything like that, it just seems to be a plausible explanation of the high prices.
The plasma chambers for the Tokamaks and Wendelsteins are clad with high reflective metal tiles inside.

Well even though it is speculation, it makes sense in my eyes anyway.

Have a productive day all


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 10, 2022)

Interesting, could you write here the title of the article?


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 10, 2022)

It was just a newspaper article in a Norwegian newspaper, but it had some nice pictures of the inside.
Tiles and tiles of a mirror metal.
It has to be quite permeable to magnetic fields as well.
It was regarding a UK lab beeing able to sustain fusion for 5 seconds.
But if I'm not wrong I think I read a chinese lab running actual fusion for even more, 17 was it?

I found another on the same topic, but not that nice picture though.








Landmark experiments smash energy record for nuclear fusion


In 1991, scientists working on a pioneering energy facility made a a momentous breakthrough, achieving the controlled release of nuclear fusion power for the first time. In 1997, the Joint European Torus (JET) tokamak reactor was then used to set an energy output world record of 22 megajoules.…




newatlas.com


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 10, 2022)

Thanks! yes , there is a lot of hype about the progress of nuclear fusion technology, today more than ever (because "green stuff" and speculation) many technical issues to overcome yet. The fusion technology appears to be always 30 years ahead in the future


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 10, 2022)

That is true, but I think all branches has been able to run the process with positive output now.
But the science behind is somewhat mindboggeling. Like why it is easier to prevent collaps of the magnetic field in the wendelstein reactor than the tokamak. A torus is so simple and clean in shape, and the elongated twisted shape of the wendelstein, looks strange, almost not symmetrical.
But what do I know?


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 10, 2022)

Not exactly: the positive output is about the net energy transferred to the plasma inside the reactor, the gain factor parameters usually published avoid to consider the overall losses: (the ratio between net energy output and net energy input is larger than 1 but it is not enough) , similar story for the national ignition facility . The problems inside the reactor regards the magnetic field line of recombination, still some losses of plasma that disrupt the magnetic field itself, this is the reason why scientists and engineers are still developing stellarator configurations . Another open problem is the refuelling of deuterium and tritium inside the reactor while the reactor is in operation. The exascale supercomputing could be the game changer to solve these problems, because we dont need exact solutions of plasma dynamics but only a very good approximation.


----------



## Stibnut (Feb 10, 2022)

MicheleM said:


> Not exactly: the positive output is about the net energy transferred to the plasma inside the reactor, the gain factor parameters usually published avoid to consider the overall losses: (the ratio between net energy output and net energy input is larger than 1 but it is not enough) , similar story for the national ignition facility . The problems inside the reactor regards the magnetic field line of recombination, still some losses of plasma that disrupt the magnetic field itself, this is the reason why scientists and engineers are still developing stellarator configurations . Another open problem is the refuelling of deuterium and tritium inside the reactor while the reactor is in operation. The exascale supercomputing could be the game changer to solve these problems, because we dont need exact solutions of plasma dynamics but only a very good approximation.


Right, the devil is in the details here - the number that is usually published in the media is the Qplasma, which is the ratio of thermal energy output from the fusing plasma to the energy actually delivered to the plasma to sustain it. This number is normally lower (edit: higher) than the actual overall Q of the system by a factor of >10 due to a variety of efficiency issues.

This youtube video by the physicist Sabine Hossenfelder did a good job of clearing this up for me. I highly recommend her channel in general - she's one of the clearest science communicators I've ever watched.



(edit: fixed mistake)


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 10, 2022)

I didn't see this specific video but I assume she is correct in this specific topic. However, I know the path of ms. Hossenfelder (former high energy physics theorist) and she has completely wrong ideas on Quantum mechanic and, for example, experimental physics (see her motivation against new particle colliders) She is a "youtuber"/"blogger" now. Take her words very carefully. Often theorist are not good physicist


----------



## Stibnut (Feb 10, 2022)

What ideas of hers on quantum mechanics or other subjects do you think are wrong? 

I've read some of her stuff including her book. My overall impression is that she believes that supersymmetry and other exciting predictions by theorists were mostly falsified by LHC results, and while it's possible to tweak some of the parameters and predict the lightest supersymmetic particles to appear at energies too high for the LHC but within the range of a future 100 TeV collider, we have no good reason to believe that they will show up there either. Given the cost of tens of billions of euros and a construction time of decades, it's likely a bad investment in her view.

I'm no particle physicist so I don't know whether that's accurate or whether there are good theoretical reasons to expect that there really are interesting physics at this energy scale that would justify the cost. I hope they build it and explore that energy range anyway, but ideally not at the cost of other projects that would provide a better scientific return on investment.


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 10, 2022)

About quantum mechanics:
she went on the road of the so called "superdeterminism" , the last chance for the realistic philosophical position. This idea is the last resort to resurrect classical physics to explain quantum mechanical predictions, but with no further progress, and with not proven assumptions, and most importantly it is not necessary... Unfortunately Quantum mechanics is far from every familiar concept that we learn in very young age, so when you turn "old" also your mind switch to old concept. Weinberg in his last book on 2012. Said "It works but i am not satisfied with..." Recently Gerard o t hooft had a "superdeterminism" u turn . it some kind of human behaviour that I witnessed with other physicists in their old age. Maybe We are a bit off topic, you can send me a pm for further details if interested.
About supersymmetric theories and string "theory" I agree completely with her but I have to tell that i am a bit biased on these themes so i could be wrong. About colliders: giant colliders are not built to confirm some "theory" ( this is only the "advertising" for the newspapers) but to push the technology beyond what we think it's possible and to preserve very special technical and scientific competences. The "true" Experimental physicist doesn't care about theories: he would want "falsificate" them all and find something totally unexpected ( almost all the greatest discoveries are unexpected). I agree with you that this kind of expensive experimens could not allow the funding of other experiments, but apparently this rarely happened . Sorry for the long response


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 10, 2022)

This thread became a very interesting but completely different beast than I envisioned.
Of course, the actual energy output are not there yet. But there have been tremendous progress.
Quantum physics may end up to be the clue to solving this.
But my slightly obscured question was, do you think they are using Rhodium and or Iridium inside the reactor chambers?
Any pros and cons?


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 10, 2022)

I don't know but some ideas Pros: both elements are useful to withstand high temperatures and in general extreme conditions environment, maybe for the divertors or some shielding inside the reactor, they should be slightly paramagnetic and this is good but usually they are not used in bulk. Questions are: how they behave under a intense flux of neutrons , charged particles and magnetic field gradients? 








Fusion Neutrons: Tritium Breeding and Impact on Wall Materials and Components of Diagnostic Systems - Journal of Fusion Energy


A concise overview is given on the impact of fusion neutrons on various classes of materials applied in reactor technology: plasma-facing, structural and functional tested for tritium production and for diagnostic systems. Tritium breeding in the reactor blanket, fuel cycle and separation of...




link.springer.com


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 10, 2022)

If we factor for planning, construction and material purchase for these and crosscheck against the price charts for Rhodium and Iridium.
Will there be correlation?


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 11, 2022)

My opinion about that,
For the past:
I would say no, less than 20 reactors in 60 years and biblical building time, almost zero financial speculation, the last large reactor was JET (1995? 1997) so you will not able to distinguish fluctuations of the Ir and Rh prices in correlation with the reactors making

for the future : 
Q1) do they plan to use Rh and Ir? Deep dive in scientific and technical literature, check for ITER AND DEMO projects. Q2) if the answer to Q1) is " Yes" , how many kilograms for each reactor? even if DEMO will succeed (BIF IF) The number of reactor in the next 50 year future will be a very small number Q3) How Rh and Ir are exchanged ? Do exist speculative ETF financial tools for them?


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 11, 2022)

Well since the annual production rose from appr 1m3 to a bit over 2m3 at present I guess an increase of 10% consumption may give big impacts.
Just speculating of course.
They might go with W instead, but I don't think it is reflective enough so the still would need a high temp reflector or stronger cooling.

As I say just thinking loud and wondering.


----------



## VK3NHL (Feb 11, 2022)

Hi all, 
I remember in my teen years working for an instrument company here in Au we used to make a lot of high temp thermocouples mainly for steel works furnaces, these thermocouples were usually Platinum + Platinum/ Rhodium
& one conductor bring pure plat & the other being plat & either 10% or 15% rhodium.
They were about 6’ long and would be in the newly bricked furnace, the furnace would be slowly heated & the t/c would eventually drop down into the furnace when it reached operating temp.
However, there was the odd occasion when a young silly apprentice would recover the t/c & keep the Pt & Rh wire before it fell inside the furnace..


----------



## orvi (Feb 11, 2022)

Science is going nuts these days in way of discovering new possible ways how to obviate the use of expensive materials in some processes. I mainly see it in chemistry, as I am professionally a research chemist.
Lots and lots of publications emerged with new ways how to substitute mainly palladium from the chemical synthesis - for the cost and "green" reasons obviously. Not everything is as shiny as it look for the first sight.

It is very good to stay very cautious about "sensations" and "breakthroughs" in science nowdays. Sadly, I must admit, that as anything in today´s form of capitalism, scientists are pretty much pushed to the limits and forced to publish enormous ammounts of research papers in order to defend their positions and stay "in the game".
And there is arising ammount of ones, who have no moral problems to publish skewed data analyses, completely made up chemical procedures and reactions that don´t work and never worked... :/ just in order to publish and make credit for their research career. And while you work with articles and papers everyday, using their research to prepare intermediates and other molecules... You have no problem identify the most common nationalities/countries, from where these skewed works came from 

Times changed. I will always say that science from beginning to about 1990s was very precisely written down, all aspects were clearly discussed, pitfalls were highlighted and realistic outputs were given (overwhelmig majority of cases). 
Nowdays, for publishing, you have strict written guidelines of how you must structure your paper. You have definite, and usually not necessary enough place to express your findings and observations. Reaction procedures most of the times ommit important notes about reagents preparation/purity/homogenity, which make you then unable to replicate the experiments. Not just few, but there is an unhealthy percentage of them, and this number is rising :/


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 11, 2022)

Well I dug into Iter and the most promising material with respect to heat resistance and favourable neutron properties are WC in the form of monolithic tungsten carbide.
But that do not make sense with what the images show, but they may be renderings not actual images.

Regarding science today, I'm afraid much has been sacrificed on the altar of cancel culture and Wokeism.

There was a social research project in Sweden recently and when the result crashed with todays Woke and cancel culture, they just scrapped the project "the result did not follow the beforehand conclusion".

So today, I tend not to believe social research anymore.


----------



## MicheleM (Feb 11, 2022)

@orvi as a former researcher in physics I agree completely with your words, one of the main reasons why I left "the game"


----------



## kurtak (Feb 11, 2022)

orvi said:


> It is very good to stay very cautious about "sensations" and "breakthroughs" in science nowdays. Sadly, I must admit, that as anything in today´s form of capitalism, scientists are pretty much pushed to the limits and forced to publish enormous ammounts of research papers in order to defend their positions and stay "in the game".
> And there is arising ammount of ones, who have no moral problems to publish skewed data analyses, completely made up chemical procedures and reactions that don´t work and never worked... :/ just in order to publish and make credit for their research career. And while you work with articles and papers everyday, using their research to prepare intermediates and other molecules... You have no problem identify the most common nationalities/countries, from where these skewed works came from


So very true

Clearly evident in the world of Covid-19

It's all about the money & control - NOT the science

Kurt


----------



## Lou (Feb 12, 2022)

It’s WC for the liner tiles. I read an article a while back about how the designers were worrying about radioactive contamination in the liner from the high neutron fluxes and it mentioned W. W is very resistant to heat and dense enough to stop a lot of the other radiation. Two way shielding, I suppose.

As to what Orvi said…yes, a lot of BS published that doesn’t work. A lot of politics, competition, butt kissing. It’s turned into a self perpetuating cycle. One of the reasons I did not stay in academia. As an industrial chemist who loves experiment design and solving real world problems, I can no longer publish because these solutions are worth money. In refining process tech, much never sees the light of day.


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 12, 2022)

Thanks Lou.
But as I mentioned earlier, they do look quite reflective.
So are they covered in a high temp reflector material, like for instance Rhodium?
Or are all the images I have seen so far just renderings maybe?

Regards Per-Ove


----------



## kurtak (Feb 13, 2022)

Lou said:


> As to what Orvi said…yes, a lot of BS published that doesn’t work. A lot of politics, competition, butt kissing. It’s turned into a self perpetuating cycle. One of the reasons I did not stay in academia. As an industrial chemist who loves experiment design and solving real world problems, *I can no longer publish because these solutions are worth money. In refining process tech, much never sees the light of day.*


So instead of outright lying you just withhold the truth - *LOL*

Just kidding Lou - we enjoy all the little tidbits you can & do share *!!! * 

Kurt


----------

