# Garage refining--damage to building?



## Anonymous (Dec 19, 2008)

Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting and I need to mention my sincere appreciation and gratitude to all of you whom have contributed to this fantastic forum. This new hobby, with your observations, experience, help and insight--along with Hoke's-- have held my rapt attention since the day I first lurked through these pages several months ago.

I am renting garage space from a friend, and had been processing outside next to it in the warmer months, while storing spent solutions inside the garage in proper containers. I had some time off and decided to take on a slightly larger project inside the garage due to snowy winter conditions, although incineration and inquartation was handled outside. I have my dissolution set up next to the half open garage door with a large paddle wheel type blower behind it. Seems to work fine. There is a side door if I need cross current.

Well, one evening, I asked my landlady friend to move her new car some considerable distance away from the garage simply for my own sense of security and personal responsibility. I'm fine with having my own beater nearby. 

In doing so, however, I freaked her out. She did a little research and found some rather vague information about the types of chemicals we use, their hazards and such. 

She is now concerned about the effects on the building, and rightly so. I have also been somewhat concerned. Obviously, rust may occur over time, and that--along with avoiding fires, and explosions are my main concerns, but her chief concern seems to be whether gases will penetrate the wooden structure to the point where she may have to report it when selling the property. This varies from state to state, of course, but any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated.

My understanding is that many people use dangerous chemicals in a garage, (solvents, degreasers, various paint supplies, etc.) without any damage or legal repercussions, and since my active solutions are processed with direct ventilation to the outdoors, everything should be relatively ok--some rust perhaps.. I am not so sure about stored solutions, however, and its highly possible there are factors I am not recognizing.

This is probably my last batch in a "garage in winter" scenario anyway, but any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

I am also curious as to which characteristics make a building ideal for refining. So far I understand the basics: fume hood, running water, gas line, no floor drains I assume, as much concrete surface area as possible, and the least metal exposure possible, good lighting, secure doors, etc. I read somewhere of an acid proof paint. What names does this go by? Do/can you cover everything with this (within reason)? Other acid proof building materials? 

That ought to satiate my appetite for now. Again, a marvelous effort you guys.

Erik
Minnesota


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## Lou (Dec 19, 2008)

Erik,

The only concern you should have is about corroding metal pieces in the garage. Wood, and plaster (gypsum or calcium sulfate) are extremely resistant to acid vapors. In fact, my acid cabinets are entirely made of wood and they are painted with that epoxy paint which you alluded to in your post.You can tell your landlady that the vapors will not permeate and cause any structural damage--humidity is far more damaging than any acid vapor. It is regrettable that she is unnecessarily worried; I fear she lacks the proper knowledge on the subject. If you have proper ventilation and can not smell anything out of the norm, you are well within permissible human exposure limits (low part per million, comparable to living in a town with a coal burning power plant), and that is far, far less that what is needed to even damage the nails in the studs (which will rust naturally overtime from moisture in the wood). Furthermore, it is unlikely that anyone will use the garage as a dwelling, so she will not need to report anything like "chemicals were used in this building, beware!" or such nonsense. Humorously enough, most of the chemicals we use in refining are used by anyone who does: home brewing, home cleaning, driveway cleaning, or automotive work. At any given time this refining hobby could be dangerous, but no more so that filling your lawnmower or working underneath your car.

I assume you are doing this responsibly yet she is within her rights to ask you to discontinue your activities. It would be easier for you to comply even though from a legal standpoint, you can argue that there is no damage done to the property (which would be true, unless this building is made of metal) and it is likely not in the lease agreement. Generally speaking, it's just easier (and legally, cheaper) to find an area zoned industrial. Bear in mind that if you pursue this any further than a hobby you may well be in violation of zoning laws.

If you take the time to explain to your landlady what exactly you're doing and put the risks into perspective, I'll wager that she is not a chemophobe and is not hysterical. She should understand that your hobby, pursued on a small scale (as in less than a gallon total volume) poses no more danger that having gasoline in the garage (this is commonsense in my opinion as a chemist). If she doesn't like commonsense, I'm sure you can look up statistics for how many garage fires there are in relation to how many garages being destroyed from comparatively harmless chemicals. I wonder which will be higher?

Also, most epoxy paints are good for acid resistance. Paint your floors matte black epoxy--any gold or silver will be more easily seen against this color. As for counter tops, my preference is black thermoset epoxy, which is expensive but very durable. You can also use slate. My old laboratory had black granite counters and I never found them lacking except for the fact that glassware was more prone to breakage from the high relative hardness of the granite. You might also consider plain old plywood or composite that has been painted with epoxy once and then treated with a spray on Teflon product (I don't have the link handy but you can find it at DuPont).



I've moved this thread to legal, as it seems more pertinent.


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## qst42know (Dec 19, 2008)

The risk is in taking the blame for the natural process of a vehicle rusting. If her car developed a spot of rust and she decides it would be better if you paid for the new paint job you may end up in court. 

Refining chemicals are notorious for causing corrosion at considerable distances. It would be easy to conclude it was something you did, even if you didn't.


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## Anonymous (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks guys,

I knew I posted the subject in the wrong topic, though I didn't have time to figure out how to move it, so thank you very much Lou for fixing it for me.

This woman is a friend of mine first, and a the rental situation is a friendly agreement, so I don't think that we should ever have any reasons to worry about court proceedings. The last thing I want, however, is for my hobby to cost her money, cause her trouble, undue concern etc.

I believe that I am going about things the right way, but want to make sure I am not overstepping my bounds or neglecting something. I'm always uneasy about the potential for chemical exposure to neighbors or passersby so I try to process either in the middle of the day when everyone is at work or school, or late at night when everyone is asleep.

I guess her main concern was whether my processing would impact the property's selling price. I simply haven't yet taken the initiative to educate her about the process, inherent risks with the hobby, and the numerous and relentless efforts I have gone through to alleviate, if not eliminate, those risks. I believe that once I do talk her through it we may come to some agreement that allows me to continue, on perhaps a somewhat limited basis. I'm fine with replacing hardware if it should show signs of significant deterioration.

However, as you mentioned Lou, if she still isn't comfortable with my processing on her property, I will finish the batch that I am in the middle of and stop altogether without question or argument. 

I am hoping to find a small (hopefully inexpensive) secure space for rent or contract for deed on property zoned for industrial use, eventually, though I have much practice to accomplish before taking any kind of professional work on.

My other concern is how to let neighbors now that I am not operating a Meth lab. I do not want to get too detailed and freak the whole neighborhood out about chemical exposure, nor do I wish to have rumors spreading around about how many valuables might be contained in an oftentimes unsupervised building. 

So far, I've just been playing it cool, and trying to appear like a responsible guy.:twisted: I suppose regular use of a blow torch out in the driveway probably isn't indicative of methamphetamine production 

Lou, I'm very interested in the epoxy and teflon materials you mentioned and will look into them further. So far, it's been cardboard over plywood decking or cement slab, but it would be really nice to have a resistant surface that could be kept clean, waterproof, with a little give to avoid beaker breakage, and with some tack to avoid slippage. The materials you mentioned sound like the ticket.

Thanks again! 

Erik


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## qst42know (Dec 23, 2008)

You can often find prefab Formica counter tops at Lowe's, Home Depot, or lumber yards. Cosmetic damage (scratches or chips), canceled orders, or discontinued colors, are often sold for a fraction of what they usually cost. They will need some protection from any hot work but should serve fairly well for a long time.


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