# Hard nosed approach to moderating



## Harold_V (Nov 16, 2015)

I have, in the past, banned readers who don't honor the purpose of this board. That has raised concern amongst a few, including some of the moderators. 

I backed off keeping tabs on this board, leaving it to the moderators to deal with less than acceptable topics, and, for the most part, they have done an excellent job. However, one thing that troubles me, and it isn't due to any particular moderator, is that topics that should not enjoy a long life seem to go on and an, taking energy away from the topics that matter, those that revolve around refining. 

I am putting readers on notice. I am going to start banning individuals who seem to be unable to resist the temptation of drifting off topic, posting on matters that have no place on this board. I will do so without discussion with others----and there will be no change of mind. If you value your ability to post on this board, start following the rules, as the vast majority do---or consider yourself as being here for only the short term. 

Those who get banned and return under a different identity will be further banned, with a report delivered to their ISP, with a request for their service to be terminated. 

This is a board of science, not of witchcraft, nor of politics and/or religion, and is not to be used to promote nonsense. If you really believe that there is such a thing as perpetual motion, or a free lunch, don't discuss it on this board. 

Harold


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## jeneje (Nov 16, 2015)

There are literally hundreds, even thousands of boards and websites where one can go to discuss the NON Science topics. What amazes me, is they would rather bring it here instead of just doing a search on google and sign-up. :roll: 

Ken


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## galenrog (Nov 16, 2015)

As Harold has posted many times, it is up to the members and moderators to keep the board from slipping into chaos. I would rather that we keep everything on topic ourselves, without prodding, thread locking, or banning by moderators. If, however, members cannot do it themselves, discipline can and should be handed out. If I get out of line, I should be corrected or otherwise dealt with, as the moderators see fit.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 16, 2015)

Problem with these problematic topics is that the longer discussion goes, the more offended (most of the people) engaged there will feel - recipe for disaster. I am all for simply deleting offensive and non-refining topics. The sooner the better. 
If they stay - say as example for future readers, it may lead to confusion that some debates were kinda allowed even that they were locked at the end of it. Like that last one which prompted this thread - majority of us will not miss it if it disappear.


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## Harold_V (Nov 16, 2015)

patnor1011 said:


> Problem with these problematic topics is that the longer discussion goes, the more offended (most of the people) engaged there will feel - recipe for disaster. I am all for simply deleting offensive and non-refining topics. The sooner the better.
> If they stay - say as example for future readers, it may lead to confusion that some debates were kinda allowed even that they were locked at the end of it. Like that last one which prompted this thread - majority of us will not miss it if it disappear.


You bring out an excellent point in regards to leaving some off-topic threads as examples (which I am known to do). That they set the tone for other similar discussions is a real concern, as, often, a reader will post immediately upon reading a post, without further exploring a thread, so the outcome may be a total surprise to that individual. 

Posting prematurely is something I'm prone to do as well, and often I discover that I really should have read more, to determine how a thread evolved. 

As time allows, or as examples are brought to the attention of moderators, such threads should be deleted, assuming that *no content of value* is lost in the shuffle. That's the one thing that makes it important that such threads be dealt with early, before they must be sorted on an individual post basis. 

Thanks for your comment, Pat. 


Harold


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## gfine (Jan 31, 2016)

As a very noob here, I just want to thank you Harold for being the hardnose. I waited 20 years to begin this process so in no way endanger my young family when I first took interest. Thinking I had enough knowledge and then finding this forum and realizing I had so much more to learn. There is nothing more irritating than reading a tread rippled with "how do I do this or that" or "how much gold will I get out of this pile?", when all the information is here.....acres of it, makes my brain hurt.
I started with 1,000,000 questions. I'm down to 500,000 and will do my due diligence to answer them without unnecessary questions to other members. I read the rules and understand. You keep doing what you do and don't consider yourself "hardnose"...you help keep order and I for one appreciate it, consider me a student that really wants to learn but sometimes cant hear the professor because someone else is talking.
Hope to get to a place I can give back some of what I am receiving right now. thank you for being here.


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## Harold_V (Feb 1, 2016)

This board, like any other, can quickly take a turn, rendering it valueless. Considering it is monitored by many who have credentials, we strive to have it operate as the good and valuable source of information it has the potential to be. For that reason, we don't tolerate those who are unwilling to cooperate, or have not been house-broken, if you get my drift (and I suspect you do!). All who are serious about learning benefit. Those who are here for the wrong reason(s)? Not so much. 

Thanks, gfine. I appreciate the support. 

Harold


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## nickvc (Feb 1, 2016)

Nice to see you on the forum again Harold. With as many members as the forum has I think the carrot and stick approach is essential, encourage members to ask questions and post findings and discourage nonsense and any unneeded discussions or topics, particularly the ones posted as the forum rules.


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## Harold_V (Feb 1, 2016)

nickvc said:


> encourage members to ask questions and post findings and discourage nonsense and any unneeded discussions or topics, particularly the ones posted as the forum rules.


Thanks, Nick. And I agree---readers _*should*_ ask questions, but the questions should reflect the fact that each is doing due diligence---reading Hoke's book, and otherwise studying to gain knowledge. What isn't acceptable is for one to ask questions in lieu of doing so. For those of us who have experience in refining, it's perfectly obvious when *"stupid" questions are being asked.

*Stupid questions are those which reveal the fact that one has not done any reading. Precious little has not been discussed on this board, so readers are encouraged to search and read. In the process of doing so, along with reading Hoke's book, a sense of direction is acquired, resulting in the reduction of unnecessary discussions. 

Several of the moderators have undertaken the task of weeding out just such discussions, many of which are repetitive, making searching a daunting task. It makes little sense to have so much time dedicated to the project, only to allow new readers to continue to clutter the board with questions that have been asked and answered repeatedly. For that reason, questions asked should rise above those that might be asked when one knows nothing. 

Harold


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## jason_recliner (Feb 1, 2016)

Harold_V said:


> Several of the moderators have undertaken the task of weeding out just such discussions, many of which are repetitive, making searching a daunting task. It makes little sense to have so much time dedicated to the project, only to allow new readers to continue to clutter the board with questions that have been asked and answered repeatedly. For that reason, questions asked should rise above those that might be asked when one knows nothing.


At one of several other fora in which I recently became a member, there is a policy prohibiting new users from posting until approved. This may have been a certain length of time unless overridden by an admin/mod. Maybe the system counted many times I logged in, I don't know. But I was admitted after several days and was eventually granted permission to download documents and post a note of thanks for the info received.

If one must spend x days reading, then one might be more inclined to do so. It may also help against all but the most determined drive-by spammers.
I don't know anything about the features of phpBB3, but is that something worth looking into? Something automated, so as to not further burden our moderator team.

Just a thought.


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## UncleBenBen (Feb 1, 2016)

BUT. Yeah made that a big but.  

But what if that kind of deal was in place here, and was encountered by someone that was just 'feeling' out the forum for the first time that had something to offer and was instantly turned off by having to wait to do so.

Some of the greatest contributers, so far as I've seen in all the reading I've done, came here just like that. All of a sudden there was this amazing post from a brand new member. 

What kind of automated system could differentiate between a '4metals' or a 'freechemist' and some Joe schmo moron like me?

For what it's worth from this Joe schmo, I think all mods and admin have done a great job with this place and whatever they decide to do to keep it running smoothly is fine by me!


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## Grelko (Feb 2, 2016)

Seeing that basically everything has been talked about in here many times over, what about locking the "make new thread" part of the site (except certain ones for selling, gallery, or companies etc) if it's even possible. New members would need to "search" for the information first, then they could post in a thread that already has information about it. Most members already use the search button.

No new threads would stop the clutter a bit, and over time the posts could slowly get sorted out, if anyone felt like doing it. Could always try it for a month of two just to see how it went.

While I've been slowly reading through the entire site, I made a small list of certain threads "only 5 so far", that should fit better in other sections.


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## nickvc (Feb 2, 2016)

The one problem I can foresee in stopping new threads is for the members for whom English is not their first tongue. We do and always have tried to make allowances for them especially as the forum grew larger, for them asking questions which may well have been asked dozens of times can be of vital importance, as a forum we strive to make everyone aware of the risks and dangers inherent in what we do and safety must remain our first priority, it's the reason text language is banned so that clear advice can be given that everyone understands.
We are under view by many government agencies from many countries we have to be seen to be taking the right stance to allow us to continue.


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## jason_recliner (Feb 2, 2016)

This was a mere suggestion for the site owner/operators to consider.

But people take the line of least resistance. If one could not open a new thread but could post a reply on another, there shall be a myriad of questions posed on unrelated threads. Madness will ensue and moderator workload would increase rather than decrease.


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## Grelko (Feb 2, 2016)

nickvc said:


> The one problem I can foresee in stopping new threads is for the members for whom English is not their first tongue. We do and always have tried to make allowances for them especially as the forum grew larger, for them asking questions which may well have been asked dozens of times can be of vital importance, as a forum we strive to make everyone aware of the risks and dangers inherent in what we do and safety must remain our first priority, it's the reason text language is banned so that clear advice can be given that everyone understands.
> We are under view by many government agencies from many countries we have to be seen to be taking the right stance to allow us to continue.



That's very true, we definately need to let the non english speaking, or even just members in general, post new threads to ask questions, especially if it was about their safety.

I'll continue reading through the site like I've been doing, while working on my list about "thread placement". Then once I'm done, I can send it to a Mod or Admin, and they can see which ones should be moved to clean this place up a bit.

It's actually pretty hard doing something like this, but not because there's 235,250 posts "and counting :lol: " The problem is that alot of threads talk about 1 thing, but later on it switches to a completely different subject, or some have a misleading title. It's also alot of fun at the same time, since I'm learning about tons of things.

-------------------------------------------------
What about adding sub-sections to each section? For example, take all of the threads in Non-Ferrous, and have seperate sections for each type? (Brass, Zinc, Iron, etc.) You would be able to find certain information easier besides using the "search" button.

A new member could search for information about, lets say a Copper Cell "1700 results" but instead of narrowing it down, they decide that it'd be easier just to make a new thread about it. "If" they know, that it's in Electrochemistry, they could just: Electrochemistry > Cells > Copper, and everything about it would be right there (Like the Library section).
The only problem with that, is that someone would need to find all of the pieces of information, that are in other threads also, about a "copper cell" and move them all to that section. The rest of the threads that contain bits and pieces, could go into a "General Information" section, that has everything mixed together like an archive. It would be a HUGE sorting process though.

Or, instead of having sections like Electrochemistry, just have a section for each type of metal, with the different types to go with each. [Copper] > Sub-sections: Metal, Powder, Cell, Pins, Plating. (Except this wouldn't work for mixed metals.)

The thing is, no matter what someone would come up with, it'd take a long time to do because of how much information there is.

Edit - I almost forgot, if everything did get sorted out, the sections for each type of metal would be locked, but you could post new questions in the "General Information" section. It would keep all of the "same type, already answered" new member questions, in one section, and you could just go through those to reply instead of everywhere else on the site getting more cluttered. You could answer someones question, simply by saying "click on _____ > _____ > _____" or help them more if they're having alot of trouble.


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## MarcoP (Feb 2, 2016)

Hard nosed or not, you guys are all great moderators. Harold, I believe your approach is essential for the equilibrium, keeping this forum a great place to learn from.

Marco


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 2, 2016)

Grelko, you've mentioned some good ideas for organizing things, but you've also touched on one of the key difficulties; thread drift. I had a lot of the same thoughts while reading through the forum, and it was the main reason I accepted the position as a moderator. When I started trying to implement some of them, I learned just how difficult it really is.

At this time we are not able to add sub-forums or new sections. Noxx is looking into it, but it may be some time before it is possible.

As you've mentioned, threads often take on a life of their own, changing from one subject to another. Splitting threads is cumbersome, but more importantly, the split portions can be confusing once taken out of context. 

We've tried to organize some of the best threads in the Library, and we've shortened most of those threads by removing posts that don't add information to the threads, but that's not a perfect solution either.

I've had to come to accept that this is a forum. It is simply the nature of the beast that things will never be organized in the way a book is organized. Subjects will be spread around, topics will drift, and it will continue to grow every day. To get the most out of the forum, the solution is to do exactly what many of us have done and what you're doing now; read every post on the forum. Only those who devote the time will find all the precious little gems of information scattered around. 

Dave


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## Harold_V (Feb 2, 2016)

Topic drift is a fact of life, so I've never tried to discourage it from happening. That's for good reason, and is part of the reason why I encourage readers to keep reading. There's usually a gem of knowledge in each thread, although it may not be in keeping with the specific topic at hand. Such comments may never be posted otherwise. 

Harold


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## Shark (Feb 2, 2016)

Harold_V said:


> Topic drift is a fact of life, so I've never tried to discourage it from happening. That's for good reason, and is part of the reason why I encourage readers to keep reading. *There's usually a gem of knowledge in each thread, although it may not be in keeping with the specific topic at hand. Such comments may never be posted otherwise. *
> 
> Harold



That is what I was trying to think of a way to say.

Many times I have been side tracked from a post by a side subject just out of curiosity. Later I would learn that the knowledge gained would be a benefit and often I could fall back on things I had already learned instead of having to research something new. Just as well, many times I have found an answer to a question hidden in an unrelated post. This is why it important to read as many post as possible. Yes, it can be tough at times, but when you come across those posts that make you think "Well DUH" it makes up for the effort spent. 

I don't think anyone really enjoys being a moderator when the hard decisions need to be made, (most I believe would rather help someone). But it is good that there are those who can and will do the job when needed.


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