# SMB Wont work properly



## Moo (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi forum, I have had a soultion of Au chloride I dissolved in acid/bleach which I let sit for 24 hours upon adding SMB 6 grams around what I was expecting my solution took about 20 mins to clear and even that didnt clear completly and still had a yellowish tinge after several hours and no change I added some more Au chloride solution and water as well as some smb also yet the solution is still light yellow and the only amount of gold I can see is a tiny amount of powder on the bottom, What to do? I was thinking of heating it but im afraid the Gold might go with the fumes.


----------



## Geo (Jun 18, 2012)

you can heat the solution. theres no need to worry about losing the gold if you cover the container and not boil. bring the solution to the temperature that it is steaming and keep it the for an hour or a little more.


----------



## Moo (Jun 18, 2012)

Ok Geo will do  will cover with plate and heat till it steams, however how does one maintain it at this temp with a non variable hotplate? ok to switch it on till it starts steaming then off then on and so forth until it starts to react? or should I get a better hotplate?


----------



## Geo (Jun 18, 2012)

you need a hotplate with a temperature setting. as long as its hot enough for water to steam, its hot enough.turn on the power until it reaches a slow boil and then shut the power off. repeat this for a couple of hours.
be sure to test the solution with stannous chloride before you add SMB and again in an hour after you add SMB to be sure theres no more gold in solution.


----------



## Moo (Jun 18, 2012)

okay well I just have 4 temp dials will set to 1 and proceed with cover over top. May I ask what the idea behind this is as im confused and would like to understand, Im assuming its to drive off water its just going to drop back in if covered????


----------



## maynman1751 (Jun 18, 2012)

It's to drive off any chlorine that's remaining. Chlorine will keep the gold from dropping.


----------



## Moo (Jun 18, 2012)

chlorine after 36+hours :shock:


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 18, 2012)

Did you added distilled water? Even your tap water contains chlorine. Also check your smb it may be past "best before date". I mean sometimes when it is not stored properly and moisture get in smb is less effective.


----------



## Moo (Jun 18, 2012)

no it was tap water during this chaos i considered the SMB may be bad as a small amount was lumpy but I tried some more from a unopened container to no avail.


----------



## Geo (Jun 18, 2012)

also, if you add too much SMB to the solution, an over abundance of tiny SO2 bubbles will form as the gold precipitates (especially if its a small amount of gold) the gold will adhere to the bubbles causing them to be too heavy to rise and burst on the surface and the bubble causes the gold to be too light to sink to the bottom. you will have a murky solution for days. by heating, it will drive the SO2 bubble out of solution releasing the fine gold powder allowing it to settle. a murky solution should clear after an hour or so after being heated.

this is also the reason you will find a light dusting of gold powder floating on the surface of the liquid, being deposited there from the bubbles bursting.


----------



## lazersteve (Jun 18, 2012)

What did you process and where did you get your SMB?

Steve


----------



## Moo (Jun 18, 2012)

Steve I processed foils fromm fingers and fiber cpu pins as well as gold that I couldnt get to melt properly with torch, and some paper scrap that was incinerated as described in hokes on a frypan but covered in metho till it burnt out everything I cleaned well boiling and washing in water and HCL 3 times the soultion was filtered using #1 lab filters and came through very clean. SMB is the proper stuff and has worked fine for me previously. Its now been about 46 hours and no change the soultion is clearish with a hint of yellow and very little powder on the bottom. Solution has a ph of 1


----------



## Geo (Jun 18, 2012)

what does the stannous test look like?


----------



## Moo (Jun 19, 2012)

Geo I just finished the heating process and am letting it cool back down, I will test with stannous when done so it looks like theres a lot more powder now however solution still has a slight yewllow colour wil test for purple color with stannous shortly


----------



## Harold_V (Jun 19, 2012)

Moo said:


> Geo I just finished the heating process and am letting it cool back down, I will test with stannous when done so it looks like theres a lot more powder now however solution still has a slight yewllow colour wil test for purple color with stannous shortly


Your FIRST post should have made reference to the results from testing wtih stannous chloride. Why are you guessing? Have you not read Hoke's book, and learned how to test properly?

Harold


----------



## Geo (Jun 19, 2012)

a yellow solution does not always mean gold. palladium will look yellow if its concentrated enough to see after precipitating gold. only the stannous test will show for sure, if its purple its gold and if its green its palladium.


----------



## Moo (Jun 19, 2012)

Harold I hadnt tested with stannous at that stage so I didnt include it this solution contains gold I know its there because I was the one who dissolved it in hcl/bleach according to what ive learnt. 
I work a 8 hour a day job and have to fit in many other things as well so I have only read parts of hoke thus far will probaly take me 6 months to get through the whole thing lol.
no guessing about that 

Geo Through researching this forum I am aware of how to test properly, thanks for the advice once again.


----------



## Harold_V (Jun 19, 2012)

Moo said:


> Harold I hadnt tested with stannous at that stage so I didnt include it this solution contains gold I know its there because I was the one who dissolved it in hcl/bleach according to what ive learnt.


I'm not the least bit concerned about the fact that you are the one who dissolved the gold, for that has nothing to do with the point at hand, and sends the wrong message to those who hope to learn good lab practice. 

The real point is, once you've precipitated, regardless of your circumstances, testing is in order. That way you know for certain that you have, or have not, recovered all of the values. I say this for good reason, one that will eventually jump up and bite you on the butt if you don't learn this lesson early on. You can not judge a solution by its color, nor should you assume that you have precipitated all that is in solution. Testing costs virtually nothing, and takes no time of note. To not test is not the wisest thing you can do. If you don't have time to do it right, you really don't have time to do it at all. That, too, is a lesson you will come to understand. 

Harold


----------



## Moo (Jun 19, 2012)

Harold you learn alot by your mistakes. Something I look forward to, I am aware its good practice and procedure to test if all gold has precipitated and completly agree with you, I fail to see though what point there is in testing a solution that you know contains Gold. Perhaps because there may be other elements present stopping it from precipitating? Guess I will come to learn that as well.

Thanks for the input


----------



## Harold_V (Jun 19, 2012)

Again, you're missing the point. Testing is to assure you KNOW that there is gold in a solution. Once you have attempted precipitation, if you achieve results in any way, testing is a valuable resource. There's more than one reason why a solution can be yellow---or the color of gold chloride. That's the point. That you happen to be right in this particular circumstance does not guarantee that you will be right in others. 

Let me be perfectly succinct. I refined for more than 20 years, on a daily basis. I tested constantly (I also used ferrous sulfate crystals, in conjunction with stannous chloride). It took little time for me to come to terms with the idea that I *didn't* know what was going on at all times---and that testing was my salvation. 

Your response to me indicates a considerable amount of cockiness that is going to burn you in good time. Whether you learn the hard way, or by taking seasoned advice, is your choice, but learn you will. Displaying attitude is not in your best interest. 

Harold


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 19, 2012)

Your gold may not be in solution. It may be left behind on some undissolved pins or bits of metal in form of powder clinging to this pieces. Many times if dissolution is not complete and some parts are left in solution gold precipitate on them.


----------



## Moo (Jun 20, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> Again, you're missing the point. Testing is to assure you KNOW that there is gold in a solution. Once you have attempted precipitation, if you achieve results in any way, testing is a valuable resource. There's more than one reason why a solution can be yellow---or the color of gold chloride. That's the point. That you happen to be right in this particular circumstance does not guarantee that you will be right in others.
> 
> Let me be perfectly succinct. I refined for more than 20 years, on a daily basis. I tested constantly (I also used ferrous sulfate crystals, in conjunction with stannous chloride). It took little time for me to come to terms with the idea that I *didn't* know what was going on at all times---and that testing was my salvation.
> 
> ...



Im not missing anything all im saying is i know the golds there because i dissolved the foils. Where are you picking up on attitude ???? I came here with respect and have shown it the whole time.


----------



## Moo (Jun 20, 2012)

patnor1011 said:


> Your gold may not be in solution. It may be left behind on some undissolved pins or bits of metal in form of powder clinging to this pieces. Many times if dissolution is not complete and some parts are left in solution gold precipitate on them.




please explain, I dissolved foils mainly and incinerated papers.


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 20, 2012)

Moo said:


> Steve I processed foils fromm fingers and fiber cpu pins as well as gold that I couldnt get to melt properly with torch, and some paper scrap that was incinerated as described in hokes on a frypan but covered in metho till it burnt out everything I cleaned well boiling and washing in water and HCL 3 times the soultion was filtered using #1 lab filters and came through very clean. SMB is the proper stuff and has worked fine for me previously. Its now been about 46 hours and no change the soultion is clearish with a hint of yellow and very little powder on the bottom. Solution has a ph of 1



I see not only foils. You pretty much mixed a lot of different material together. Anything metallic that was not dissolved completely may hold precipitated gold.
Give me breakdown of weight of all that material you dissolved.


----------



## Geo (Jun 20, 2012)

when you dissolved the material, was there any metal that didnt dissolve.fiber CPU pins are made of Kovar (an iron based material) and can be hard to dissolve. iron will cement gold quickly, especially in warm solutions. if you had iron that didnt dissolve, there may be some gold still with the pins.


----------



## Moo (Jun 21, 2012)

Patnor as I recall there was 3 grams of foils, about 2 grams of refined gold I couldnt get to melt properly I pretreated this before dissolving by acid and hot water bath to get rid of any borax, and trace impurities the pins were 90 grams in weight prior to being dissolved in acid, paper scrap I dount really know, I was all frustrated and worried when I was doing this so thats about as concrete as information as i can give you.
Thanks for your time 

Geo im not entirely sure from what I recall I boiled the pins for several hours in acid several times over Ive done this process over a few weeks all in the great attempt to get what I can and clean up all this mess I have around so I can clear my head and start fresh.


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 21, 2012)

Was everything dissolved completely? Nothing thrown out, filtered out, taken out from original solution?


----------



## Moo (Jun 21, 2012)

Patnor yes as far as im aware there were traces of black on the filter paper though. Ive heated the solution o a few times till it steamed and what appeared as fine brown powder in the bottom is now black with a little more then originally was there. Hope that helps. Sorry im a little vague on the whole process has taken a while over time so cant say for sure. I wouldnt mind betting though that there may be traces of other dissolved metals in the solution


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 21, 2012)

Your best bet will be to add small bit of fresh HCl to your original solution, put a big piece of copper inside and wait till solution become saturated with copper. Then decant, collect all powder from bottom and from copper bar and start over again. That powder will contain your gold.

Test left over solution after you decant with stannous to make sure all gold was cemented with copper.


----------



## Moo (Jun 21, 2012)

thanks patnor, closest thing I have to a copper bar would be a big chunk of copper i scrapped from a crt monitor good enough?


----------



## jimdoc (Jun 21, 2012)

If you are talking about the yolk, I would say no. You shouldn't use wire because it can drop bits of wire into your material, and it is coated with a varnish that would cause problems..

Jim


----------



## Moo (Jun 21, 2012)

thanks Jim yes the yolk will get a bar


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 21, 2012)

Get a pipe, cut few inches of it and either flatten it with hammer or I suggest better to cut or saw it lengthwise and flatten to make sheet.


----------



## Moo (Jun 21, 2012)

Thanks patnor will do and add to the smb solution soon as I find a plumber with some to spare.


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 21, 2012)

It is not smb solution any more, your smb decomposed already. As I said add fresh HCl, then copper.


----------



## Moo (Jun 21, 2012)

Okay thanks  acid added will hunt for some copper


----------



## Harold_V (Jun 21, 2012)

Harold said:


> Displaying attitude is not in your best interest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're not? Have you tested the solution, as you've been advised? If not, that's attitude. You're too damned stubborn to be told anything you don't want to hear. That, to me, is attitude.

You claim to have processed 90 grams of material. From that, if you're lucky, you'll recover about ten grains of gold. It will be scarcely visible when precipitated. The solution, from all indications, contained iron. That has the potential to yield a yellow solution. I also read that others have determined that you had residual iron pieces in the mix, and that they did not necessarily totally dissolve. That means that it's possible that NONE of the gold made it through the process, or that some may have. That's why one tests. Only a fool "knows" where his gold is, especially when things aren't working out as you think they should. 

As I said previously, you should have tested your solution. I said it then, and I'm saying it now. Until you do, you have NO idea if there's any gold present, for you may have already precipitated what little was there, or it may be in the filter. These are the things you will learn. How you learn them is up to you. 

Harold


----------



## Moo (Jun 21, 2012)

Harold guess what the Gold that I couldnt melt weighed 2 grams itself see above I dont have an attitude buddy but if you keep poking away I sure as hell might. And I guarantee it wont make a difference to me.


----------



## jimdoc (Jun 21, 2012)

Moo said:


> Harold guess what the Gold that I couldnt melt weighed 2 grams itself see above I dont have an attitude buddy but if you keep poking away I sure as hell might. And I guarantee it wont make a difference to me.



I can see the eviction notice already!

Jim


----------



## Harold_V (Jun 21, 2012)

Moo said:


> Harold guess what the Gold that I couldnt melt weighed 2 grams itself see above I dont have an attitude buddy but if you keep poking away I sure as hell might. And I guarantee it wont make a difference to me.


I also see that it didn't melt, a sure sign that you didn't have two grams of gold. Gold is never difficult to melt----it's only difficult because it isn't gold.
Poking?
You, sir, are akin to a mule. People here are trying to help you gain an understanding of proper refining procedures, which, in the long haul, are all required if you hope to become successful. One of the cardinal rules is that you must know what you have----for you can expend countless hours chasing your tail operating under assumptions. Everything you've posted indicates that's exactly what you're doing, and you don't have enough of an understanding to consider that's the case. You would be well served to put your attitude on hold and start listening to those who have been there, done that. 

You think it won't make a difference? 

Continue with your obstinence, setting a poor example for how readers should respond to those who offer guidance and you'll soon discover it does make a difference, as you will no longer be able to display your attitude on this forum. You won't be the first, and most likely will not be the last. 

There will be no further comments from me. I will simply perform the duty I have been assigned to perform. 

Silence is golden. 

Harold


----------



## Moo (Jun 23, 2012)

Harold, Im sorry ive calmed down now and reviewed this thread you were only trying to help me in the first place    and I over reacted being all frustrated and what not with my processing latly please accept my apologies.


----------



## maynman1751 (Jun 23, 2012)

Moo said:


> Harold, Im sorry ive calmed down now and reviewed this thread you were only trying to help me in the first place    and I over reacted being all frustrated and what not with my processing latly please accept my apologies.



That's what Harold does.......help people who are willing to listen to his years of wisdom.
Your apology was a very smart move on your part. You will NEVER find the knowledge and experience ANYWHERE that you will find here on this forum. I thank you for your apology.........I hope Harold is as accepting.


----------



## Harold_V (Jun 24, 2012)

maynman1751 said:


> Moo said:
> 
> 
> > Harold, Im sorry ive calmed down now and reviewed this thread you were only trying to help me in the first place    and I over reacted being all frustrated and what not with my processing latly please accept my apologies.
> ...


I am, indeed. I'm not here to fight with anyone. Lets move forward now, with wisdom.

Harold


----------



## steyr223 (Jul 16, 2012)

Nice very nice

Man! You guys are better than the movies
you all had me on the edge of my chair :lol: 

Moo seems pretty wise to me
keep up the good work Harold
As we all hate misinformation,sloppy habits,and
bad practices.

I was under the same thought as moo
But I see now I was getting to relaxed in my
Procedure "knowing I have gold" but not anymore
Thanks Harold and everyone
Steyr223 rob


----------

