# MSDS Liquid Fire



## Anonymous (Dec 24, 2007)

My local hardware store had liquid fire, for 17.00 a gallon, seems a price
I can handle. But I can not find an MSDS on it does anyone have a link
or know if there is any other junk in it? Bottle says concentrated sulfuric nothing about buffers or anything, just the standard warnings of acid dangers, water, etc.

thanks, 

Jim


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 24, 2007)

Here's the requested link:

Liquid Fire MSDS

The MSDS states two ingredients so it's got some buffers or something in the mix.

Steve


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 25, 2007)

The Rodine 31a in the Liquid Fire is a corrosion inhibitor.
http://tinyurl.com/2fsa33


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 25, 2007)

Do you think this would work (liquid fire)for making the nitric acid using
the cold process discribed within this forum? I would like to use
it as it is cheaper for me than battery acid and already concentrated.
The only other stuff I could find at the hardware store was rooto
and it stated on the bottle 12 buffers - with no idea of what they are
seems only 2 ingredients in liquid fire may not be too bad.

If battery acid produces results that are worth the extra effort I would
be willing to do that also, please let me know.

This is what I am planning on processing, I have 4 lbs of electrical contacts from breakers, relays, main disconnects, motor starters, etc. I have them sorted by manufacturer, amperage and device type (special attentions to relays as I think they may contain Pd) all others should just be Ag alloys with various amounts of Cu or CdO. I have seperated any with a density above 12.0 because I do not know why it would be above that but I do have about 3/4 of a lb that are, any ideas?

thanks,

Jim 

Merry Christmas


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 25, 2007)

Hi James:
If your density measurement is right (12), I sure would process them separately. Silver density is 10.49. Palladium =12.02.

Some silver contacts may have a small amount of gold, which would bring up the density. But its a tough call to decide how to separate. You must have a very accurate scale and volumetric measurements.

The only Palladium points I ever saw where small slivers on miniature relays.

Al


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 25, 2007)

I should add Tungsten density is 18.7-19.3 (Gold = 19.3). Many heavy duty points are Tungsten.


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 26, 2007)

I was kinda figuring the heavy ones were something like that, I recall have herd of it before. My relays are from a chemical evironment they contain high values of Pd and Pt, I just havent figured out how to get the pms out of them yet. My company pays 256.00 each for them new and you could easily fit 2 or 3 of them in the palm of your hand. The terminal attachment contacts are heavy plated gold for the thermocouple type r and Pd for the power & arc quence leads. Lots of them little blue surface mount caps some that are black, and 4 small enclosed relayw with 300,000 life cycle gaurantee.

Jim


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 26, 2007)

Looks like you have contact with a lot of valuable scrap. 

If you are new to refining, I would suggest starting with a easy process, first. 
Like maybe doing the Silver contacts and saving all the other precips. Then when you get the experience try Gold processes.

I would save the Pt group until last, and not do it until you have experience and know exactly what methods you want to use. You need some lab equipment and a place to work. Platinum Group processes are among the most difficult and most valuable. Its easy to lose a lot of values. High prices are here to stay and you don`t have to be in a hurry.

Identify the Tungsten and separate that. I think, you don`t want to refine that. It is valuable as is. So there are places you can sell it.

Al


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 26, 2007)

Yes, I get this stuff all of the time, I am an electrician and HVAC/R & commercial kitchen equipment repair tech. I only wish I could get the other guys in the company to save the stuff they pitch out for me.
But my area is separated from thiers and we are all too busy.

I was just going to try and just get the silver and let all of the other
stuff that does not dissolve go into a safe place till later. I do for the most part only have silver, the other high grade stuff is from saving for a long time as they are very, very, reliable.

Jim


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 26, 2007)

eagle2,

I've run many tons of palladium point scrap. When the telephone switching offices and large plant facilities went from relays to digital, there were millions of pounds of pure Pd contact relays coming into the scrap market. This stuff is still out there. A few years ago, I discovered about 5000# installed in the attic of a 750,000 Sq ft manufacturing plant. 

Palladium points are usually about 1/8 long, and skinny. They are gray/silver and usually are tapered on the edges. The cross section kinda looks like half a hexagon or octagon. They have a nickel backing and this is attached to a copper-base blade or wire.

We once ran a 50,000# batch of this material. This gross weight included the shelving, relays, sockets, wiring, and everything else. It took 2 men, 2 months, in and out the door. We pulled the relays, learned how to disassemble them, and cut close to the points with a small, reciprocating alligator shear. At today's prices, the batch would be worth about $6/gross pound, in palladium. There's also lots of copper. 

Instead of dissolving everything in the clipped point and dropping the Pd, I decided to selectively dissolve the nickel and the copper base, leaving the very pure palladium untouched. I found that a very dangerous (maybe, the most dangerous combination of chemicals I have known), hot, very strong solution of chromic acid and sulfuric acid dissolved the copper-base (with great relish and foam!) and nothing else - please don't try this at home - the problem is, what do you put it in, that won't break or be attacked - iron or steel might work. The nickel backing was then dissolved in hot full-strength muriatic acid. The result was a very pure Pd - with no loses - sold very close to spot. We didn't even melt it. We got top dollar in point form. 

If a precious metal, especially when pure, is layered onto base metals, it often pays to dissolve the base metals away from the PM, rather than dissolve everything. In the case of the Pd points, I would wager the Pd would lose purity if you, the reader, were to attempt to refine them. It's already pure - don't mess with it!

Most, but not all, telephone relays are just like other plastic box relays, except they are long and skinny and, instead of short blades, the points are mounted on long, round wires. They are called "wire relays."

More rarely, pure Pd points are used for other applications. In every case that I have seen, however, they all looked the same.


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 26, 2007)

hot concentrated sulfuric does not affect Pd?

Jim


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 26, 2007)

I have developed a few acids that use either chromic acid or a dichromate to act as an inhibitor towards the dissolving of certain metals. In this case, it allows the copper to be dissolved, but inhibits the attack on nickel and palladium. Lots of trial and error to find the right combo. There were hints, however, in the literature.


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 26, 2007)

Hi GSP and Jim.

Thank You for all the info.

Wow. Wish I could run into stuff like that. 25 years ago, I used to bid on DOD sealed auctions and then go to different Bases for pickup. That way I ran into varied scrap. Yes, the Pd points you describe are the same as what I have seen. I have long since cut them off, but never processed them, except for a few to experiment on.

I never knew the points were pure. I dissolved a few with AR, converted to Chlorides, got rid of most of the Copper by moving the PH to 6-7, then back to 3-4 and dropped out the Pd with Dimethylgloxime. It was only to prove what I had, because I had had no idea I was dealing with Pd. I thought it might be Pt. I knew I had some Nickel in there, because the yellow precip. had a touch of red.

The Chromic mixtures give us something to think about. 

But what do you think about using the Hcl-Cupric-Peroxide method? That will dissolve away the copper, iron, Tin, and I think the nickel, also. Pd is not mentioned in my EMF series. I would guess that its below Copper and would not be dissolved by the process. 

Al


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 26, 2007)

Al,

I have successfully dissolved Pd with AP (no copper) many times. 

The Pd you see on my website videos was all dissolved using AP only. 

The source material in the videos was monolithic capacitors which contained nickel, tin, titanium dioxide, barium titanate, Pd, and some Pt.

The Pt was not attacked by the AP, but the experiments were not heated.

As with AR, if your scrap contains a large percentage of base metals as compared to PMs you will have to get the base metals into solution before it starts eating away the PMs. 

For this reason I always try to remove all the base metals before going for the PMs.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2007)

I have built a small rotory grinder to make the contacts a metallic powder and allow me to process 1 gram at a time as a samlpe and I am going to process 1gr of each type, size, application and manufacturers contactor pad then I will know what each has. I am not however going to mess with the ones that I know for a fact contain PGM at this time they will remain for stock pyle and experience to grow. Even though I pretty much understand what everyone has said, and many years ago had a couple of years of chemistry, I will wait for them, as I am in no hurry. I do need to process the regular stuff to check for Au content because some of the pad to have a yellowish color to them and I am still worried that some of the silver ones may be alloyed with Pd as they have a grayish color as compared to the white silver color of silver and the densities run 11 - 11.5 these one concern me because everything I have seen so far that dissolves silver also dissolves Pd. If I dissolve it all and then add pure silver and it has Pd will the silver it cement out? I have several oz of 999 silver available.

jim


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 27, 2007)

Jim,

Adding non-iodized salt or muriatic acid to the solution of Silver and Palldium should drop the Silver as Silver chloride.

Silver chloride can be converted back to native silver via dilute sulfuric acid and metallic iron, zinc, or aluminum.

If you were using a solvent which contains chlorine to begin with, the silver would have already combined to make silver chloride and would not be in the solution anyway. Silver chloride is only slightly soluble in acid.

Steve


----------



## Irons (Dec 27, 2007)

goldsilverpro said:


> I have developed a few acids that use either chromic acid or a dichromate to act as an inhibitor towards the dissolving of certain metals. In this case, it allows the copper to be dissolved, but inhibits the attack on nickel and palladium. Lots of trial and error to find the right combo. There were hints, however, in the literature.



Besides being very corrosive, they are very toxic and some are known carcinogens. The EPA will come down hard on Chromium pollution.

A scratch on the skin will form ulcers that take moths to heal when exposed to chromates. I speak from first-hand experience there. 

Don't pour chromium salts down the drain. You may get a very unfriendly visit from the local DEP.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 27, 2007)

Just because you use a toxic chemical, it doesn't mean that you will pollute. It is usually very easy, if you know what you're doing, to totally not pollute. All it takes is knowledge, ingenuity, and, maybe, a few bucks.

I spent about 10 years in the plating industry in the '60's and '70's. For about 4 of those years, I spent a lot of time traveling around, designing and troubleshooting our some 1500 customer's plating facilities. I was in 100's of plating shops. Most had very large tanks of such things as 40 oz/gal chromic acid, chrome plating solutions or 10 oz/gal sodium cyanide, copper plating solutions - on opposite sides of the room, of course! Some tanks were as large as 5000 gallons. There were many 100's of plating shops in L.A., at the time. Most were manned with smart Mexican workers.

The point is, in 10 years, I only heard of 2 or 3 accidents. I don't even remember anyone getting sick. People were immediately trained how to work around this stuff, safely. There was adequate equipment to eliminate hazards. The equipment was designed for safety. If any industry has mastery over the proper use and disposal of some of the nastiest chemicals on Earth, it's the plating industry.

*You can work safely and responsibly with any chemical, if you know it inside and out.*


----------



## jimdoc (Dec 27, 2007)

I have a question since you guys are talking
about chromates. I found a reagent bottle
that is labeled Nuetral Potassic Chromate
that the top is stuck on and is almost full.
It is a clear glass with glass stopper like
acid bottles.
I tried looking it up, and found that is a
cancer causing solution, but no real info
on what is is and what it was used for.
I didn't want to risk spilling it by trying
to remove the top. Anybody have any
safety precautions I need to know about
this stuff? Thanks. Jim


----------



## Irons (Dec 27, 2007)

goldsilverpro said:


> Just because you use a toxic chemical, it doesn't mean that you will pollute. It is usually very easy, if you know what you're doing, to totally not pollute. All it takes is knowledge, ingenuity, and, maybe, a few bucks.
> 
> I spent about 10 years in the plating industry in the '60's and '70's. For about 4 of those years, I spent a lot of time traveling around, designing and troubleshooting our some 1500 customer's plating facilities. I was in 100's of plating shops. Most had very large tanks of such things as 40 oz/gal chromic acid, chrome plating solutions or 10 oz/gal sodium cyanide, copper plating solutions - on opposite sides of the room, of course! Some tanks were as large as 5000 gallons. There were many 100's of plating shops in L.A., at the time. Most were manned with smart Mexican workers.
> 
> ...



I have no doubt that you are quite capable in handling chemicals safely, but there are those who frequent this site who are not aware of the dangers involved in handling Chromium and other toxic metal compounds. To even mention their use is an implicit recommentation unless the potential hazards are noted. Many jurisdiction have codes regulating the use of Chromium salts and other toxic materials. To use them without the proper permits and zoning could leave one open to financial and legal liability.
A caveat was my intention.
Chromates are capable of passivating certain metals such as Lead and retard their going into solution. It's not a technique for those unskilled in the arts.


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 27, 2007)

Hi Steve: Thank You.

I have gone to your site, but unfortunately I am still running Windows 98se. (don`t like XP. eventually I guess I`ll be forced into it.) Media player 11 doesn`t support 98se. 

On the HCl- Cu-Peroxide process, I have used this successfully many times, already, to dissolve the base metals and leave the gold intact. I just use enough peroxide to start the process and as the Cupric in solution builds up, just enough peroxide to remove the Cuprous. The HCl is only about 2-4 molar. My solution is heated to near boiling and this works on a batch of unpopulated pc boards in about an 30-60 minutes. Basically its a Copper leach and anything below Copper in the EMF series should not be dissolved.

Some Gold does dissolve, because of the peroxide, but I believe I have recovered most of it it by cooling my excess solutions to room temp. and adding a small amount of Zinc. All I see is traces anyway. There`s a Patent online that describes this similar recovery method and his work shows around 95-99% recovery. 

What I don`t know is were Palladium lies in the EMF series, If its below Copper, it shouldn`t dissolve. My Chemistry books don`t list it. I`m going to try to Google it now.

Al


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 27, 2007)

Irons,

I agree with you totally in the dangers that these chemicals possess. This forum greatly profits from your reminders of the dangers involved. I, for one, appreciate these reminders and learn from them. 

However, I see my function in another light. Almost everything on this forum is dangerous and potentially polluting, if you don't know what you're doing. I see, as one of my jobs, keeping people safe and legal, no matter what they're doing. I also want to spell out every option available. I do 100% advise against, and won't discuss, the use of such things as mercury, HF, or combinations that can create explosions. One day, when I give my treatise on the wonderful selective cyanide stripping of gold plating, you'll probably go ballistic. Just joking, kinda.

You can read my posts and find nowhere that I advocated the use of chromic acid. Quite the contrary. I said it was the most dangerous chemical combination I had ever used. But, I don't agree that just mentioning something advocates it. If anyone has clipped Pd points and is thinking about trying the chromic acid, I will post the complete safety, handling, dangers, waste, and usage instructions, in great detail, as I know them. All one needs to do is ask. A trick, as in all setups, is to always start small - 200 to 300 mLs, in this case? Learn before leaping. Don't get it on your skin, don't breathe the fumes, and don't eat it. Your set up and technique must protect against these things.

A problem with chromic acid usage is the waste. You might convert it from the hexavalent to the much less toxic trivalent form, although all of that sulfuric might not allow the conversion. Chromic acid might precipitate out if you could evaporate all of the water off of the H2SO4/chromic. But, no matter what you do, you still have toxic waste that has to be legally disposed of - but probably only slightly more critical than the common heavy metals acid wastes being generated by all.

And, finally, there are probably other more genteel ways to selectively dissolve the copper without hitting the palladium. When I found the H2SO4/Chromic acid, I stopped researching - it worked so damned well. You probably could substitute potassium or sodium dichromate for the chromic acid. It's on Ebay:
http://tinyurl.com/2v85kr

Looking back, the inherent dangers and the subsequent conquering of them, is one of the things that attracts me to this profession. I'm a "green" refiner, also.


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 27, 2007)

Al,

The Activity Series document on my website includes Palladium, it's just above Gold.

Wiki has a more detailed on here:

Wiki Activity Series Charts


But oddly enough wiki's does not include Palladium?

Steve


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 27, 2007)

I would put it in the middle yellow section.


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 27, 2007)

The chart on my website comes from a Viginia Tech science website.

I've seen one other detailed chart, but I can't seem to locate it at this time.

Steve


----------



## Lou (Dec 27, 2007)

Yea, chromium compounds have fallen out of favor. Time was when glassware was cleaned with chromic acid. CrO3 is nasty stuff indeed, not just from the toxicity and carcinogenic standpoint either; it's very aggressive towards organics, hence its use as a cleaning agent. Nowadays, ammonium persulfate in sulfuric is used for cleaning, while CrO3 and dichromate really only for plating. Regular chromate is used for the yellow line on roads. AFAIK, it's only the +6 valence that's truly nasty.


GSP, I'd like to hear more about the cyanide stripping process. Cyanide is easy to work with and very easy to dispose of (bleach). 

I agree though, leave HF alone, I hate working with it, it makes me paranoid.


It's all how you use it.


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 27, 2007)

Steve, I also found it in Google books, just above Gold. 

Ok, since GSP pointed out the Palladium points from relays are considered pure, my idea is to use the Copper leach on cut off Palladium points. The Palladium should not dissolve, while any attached base metals will. 

Then, on other materials where Palladium is alloyed with Silver or solders or those mono caps use the AP method or Nitric acid.


Jim is concerned about what to do with the dissolved Palladium and Silver in solution. Precip the Silver first as you described, then I believe the reagent of choice would be Sodium Chlorate to precip Palladium.

Hey, if I could suggest, on your website allow Real player to be used along with Media player. Real Player supports Win95 & 98 and plays anything Media Player can! 

Al


----------



## aflacglobal (Dec 27, 2007)

> GSP, I'd like to hear more about the cyanide stripping process. Cyanide is easy to work with and very easy to dispose of (bleach).





Chris has mentioned the topic several times but not really in depth.
I would be interested myself.


----------



## Irons (Dec 27, 2007)

Lou said:


> Yea, chromium compounds have fallen out of favor. Time was when glassware was cleaned with chromic acid. CrO3 is nasty stuff indeed, not just from the toxicity and carcinogenic standpoint either; it's very aggressive towards organics, hence its use as a cleaning agent. Nowadays, ammonium persulfate in sulfuric is used for cleaning, while CrO3 and dichromate really only for plating. Regular chromate is used for the yellow line on roads. AFAIK, it's only the +6 valence that's truly nasty.
> 
> 
> GSP, I'd like to hear more about the cyanide stripping process. Cyanide is easy to work with and very easy to dispose of (bleach).
> ...



When I began to take Chemistry classes back in the early 60's, Chromic acid was the standard procedure to clean all lab glassware. It makes me cringe to think about all of it we flushed down the drain.
I'm not trying to get on anybodys' case about process or procedures. I'm still surprised I made it this far. My first week of classes, I took a 500 ml beaker and filled it with Sodium chips, then walked over to the sink and filled it with water. That was my first lesson in not to mix thing you can't get away from before they go off.


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 27, 2007)

Irons, you cracked me up! :lol: 

Where in the world was the instructor?


----------



## Irons (Dec 28, 2007)

eagle2 said:


> Irons, you cracked me up! :lol:
> 
> Where in the world was the instructor?



This is what happens when you leave a 20 pound block of Sodium Metal under a bell jar, sitting next to a sink on the classroom lecture table and beakers within arms reach, then walk out of the lecture room, leaving a bunch of crazy newbies alone.


----------



## Platdigger (Dec 28, 2007)

I am not sure on this one....just asking. But, isn't it true, that some (if not all) of the palladium will be precipitated when adding sodium chloride to a mixture of silver and palladium in nitric?

Also, I believe, that the sodium chlorate will only work to drop palladium from nitric....after.....amonium chloride is added first. Yes?
Randy


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> I am not sure on this one....just asking. But, isn't it true, that some (if not all) of the palladium will be precipitated when adding sodium chloride to a mixture of silver and palladium in nitric?



I think that only the silver chloride will precipitate. Some Palladium may be dragged down with the silver. 



Randy said:


> Also, I believe, that the sodium chlorate will only work to drop palladium from nitric....after.....ammonium chloride is added first



Correct. The solution will also need to be warm, nitric free, and concentrated.

Steve


----------



## Platdigger (Dec 28, 2007)

OK Steve, so if you have your palladium in a nitric solution.....are you saying to use repeated evaporations with addition of hcl? Or what? To make it nitric free I mean.
Randy


----------



## lazersteve (Dec 28, 2007)

Yes.

Before precipitation of precious metals from solutions contianing nitric acid you will need to evaporate the solution down until nearly dry. *Do not* completely dry out the solution.

After evaportion add some HCl to convert the nitrates to chlorides and repeat this process three times or until no more nitric (brown) fumes are evolved.

Using this method on auric chloride solutions eliminates the need to use urea after dissolving Gold with AR. If you dissolve your Gold with HCl-Cl this step is not necessary. 

If you dissolve your Palladium with AP this step is not necessary, but concentration of the solution is still required.

Steve


----------



## Irons (Dec 28, 2007)

And you wonder why your metals won't precipitate according to theory...

Lou can pipe in on this because he's familiar with using Palladium as a catalyst.

http://tinyurl.com/2ojl2p

As regards hydrogen, it is to be remarked that the general
behaviour of that element shows that it must be looked on
as a metal, especially as large quantities of it can be taken
up by certain metals, particularly by palladium,* and the
products of these actions behave like alloys. Now, if a
small plate of palladium is saturated, electrolytically, with
hydrogen, and is then immersed in a solution of copper
sulphate, the plate is very soon covered with a lustrous
layer of copper. In a similar way, gold, platinum, silver,
and mercury are precipitated ; but lead, iron, cadmium, zinc,
and magnesium are not precipitated.
The following facts are in accordance with these observations :
metals of the lead, iron, etc., class dissolve in acids with,
evolution of hydrogen, whereas metals of the class which
contains gold, platinum, etc., do not evolve hydrogen from,
acids (overlooking such secondary reactions as those which
occur with nitric acid). Hence the value of the solution-
pressure of hydrogen occluded by palladium must lie between
those of the solution-pressures of copper and lead. Experiments
with a palladium-hydrogen plate and a normal
sulphuric acid solution, at 17°, showed a difference of
potential equal to — -26 volt, putting the potential of the *
Palladium is capable of occluding 936 times its own volume of
hydrogen.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 28, 2007)

Irons. 

I hate to be a jerk, but could you please shorten that link? You can use tinyurl.com or the way spelled out here - see Steve's post:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=368

I spent 3 years near Caribou, ME. Where are you located? I loved it up there and hope to re-visit that area some day. The land of Maine-iacs.


----------



## Noxx (Dec 28, 2007)

I'll shorten it.


----------



## eagle2 (Dec 28, 2007)

Jim:

Steve wrote:

think that only the silver chloride will precipitate. Some Palladium may be dragged down with the silver. 


I handle co-precipitation by redissolving the precip. In the case of Silver Chloride, dissolve it in Ammonia and separate the traces. Then precip the AGCl again, with just enough HCl. Do this right away, don`t delay (there`s the possibility of forming a fulminate)! 

Incidentally you will be purifying the silver. You will get rid of a lot of Copper, Lead, Arsenic, Silica, etc. 

Co-precip. is a problem all refiners face. In Gold solutions with a lot of Iron in solution I find its best to get rid of it, first, by gradually increasing the PH to 3-4. This also drags down some gold, so I reprecip the Iron Hydroxide too. The problem is worst in concentrated solutions.

When You read some Chemistry Book or Paper describing how to precipitate something, you will mostly see them working in a beautiful pure solution, containing only one metal in solution, then they add their wonderful reagent and come up with perfect results. 

We are working with a mess of base junk in solution, So don`t expect perfect results. Do the best you can and experience will make a big difference.

Al


----------



## Harold_V (Dec 29, 2007)

eagle2 said:


> We are working with a mess of base junk in solution, So don`t expect perfect results. Do the best you can and experience will make a big difference.
> 
> Al



My experience in refining even relatively clean gold, a product of processing by the inquartation method, was that the quality of my gold was always questionable. As a result, I started re-refining my yields on a regular basis. The second precipitation, along with what I consider to be good washing procedure, yielded gold of exceptional quality.

It's unreasonable to expect gold of high quality when it comes from dirty solutions. Drag down is a problem, and not always addressed well by extended washing alone. 

Harold


----------

