# Royally screwed !



## Gwar (Feb 28, 2022)

Hello, well the good news is that my new Kilo mold and Graphite Crucible arrived today, after pouring a Kilo bar I added another 33 ozt to the furnace, the bad news is that the crucible broke with all that silver inside, so I believe the furnace is burnt toast, when everything cools down, I plan on taking the furnace apart and try to reclaim the 30 plus ounces inside, (sigh) I'm sure I can salvage some of the silver.. I guess I'll work on my silver cell design until I can buy another heat source later this week, maybe that four inch by two-inch-thick circle could be the new Anode ??


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## Gwar (Feb 28, 2022)

A Kilo Anode..


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 28, 2022)

My condolences on the crucible, and furnace. 

Eulogy:

I need to say that words are not enough to express the grief we feel at your ultimate loss. You were the light of happiness for all of us, which is why we’ll always feel your emptiness. As smelters, we have wanted so many memories of you filled with silver, gold, joy, and humor. we feel honored to have had you in our life for this short amount of time.

The spark in your furnace, and heat was a source of happiness for all of us. We truly believe that you were a pure furnace, and crucible who lived your life with honesty, and generosity. Not only the smelting life, but so many milestones you could've achieved in your professional career as well. All of these things are an inspiration for us to become like you, and achieve the same honorable status in giving life.

Coming to the end, you were indeed a great piece of equipment that will be always missed in our lives. Your nature was very kind, giving us a symbol to adapt in this world, and appreciate the precious metals we are fortunate to hold.


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## Gwar (Feb 28, 2022)

Thanks AMS-Pro, hahahaha, that made my night, thanks for attending the funeral..


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 28, 2022)

It was a beautiful viewing. I'm glad the eulogy brought you some joy, you're welcome.


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## squiggles (Feb 28, 2022)

Gwar said:


> Hello, well the good news is that my new Kilo mold and Graphite Crucible arrived today, after pouring a Kilo bar I added another 33 ozt to the furnace, the bad news is that the crucible broke with all that silver inside, so I believe the furnace is burnt toast, when everything cools down, I plan on taking the furnace apart and try to reclaim the 30 plus ounces inside, (sigh) I'm sure I can salvage some of the silver.. I guess I'll work on my silver cell design until I can buy another heat source later this week, maybe that four inch by two-inch-thick circle could be the new Anode ??


You have to be careful when loading crucibles. If you put in pieces of metal to be melted. Those pieces can wedge again each other such that they are tight against the inside of the crucible. Then, when they are heated, they expand much more than the crucible with the result that the crucible fractures because there is nowhere for the expansion to go other than out of the side of the crucible


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## Gwar (Feb 28, 2022)

squiggles, I believe that is what happened, so, what choice should I make, try to use in the silver cell, remelt and cement it out or ???


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## squiggles (Mar 1, 2022)

Gwar said:


> squiggles, I believe that is what happened, so, what choice should I make, try to use in the silver cell, remelt and cement it out or ???


Assuming that you want a bar / ingot as the end result.:-
If you can cut up that solid piece of silver that you are left with, as per your photos titled "kilo anode", into pieces. Make sure that each cut piece is no larger than, say, 3/4 the internal diameter of the crucible. Then place these pieces into the crucible by stacking them up on top of each other such that the stack is either central or only lying against just one side of the crucible. Then bring the crucible up to temperature until the silver has melted. Then you should be successful.


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## Gwar (Mar 1, 2022)

Well until my new furnace arrives, I thought I would try the silver cell again and with the new power source, I still am not getting enough amps or wattage, I plan on taking it to work and talk with one of our electrical engineers and get a crash course on theory, use, etc; so, I pulled out the old power source and wired it up and the cathode started to grow a small silvery beard, the crystals are not even close to what I was producing a week ago, I did use the same electrolyte, perhaps it's a bit weak or altogether used up ? I will try again tomorrow with a fresh batch.


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## Gsracer (Mar 2, 2022)

Gwat, why dont you switch to a stainless steel cathode?


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## Gwar (Mar 2, 2022)

I suppose I could try; I do have a stainless bowl I used the first time..


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## Gsracer (Mar 2, 2022)

if you would like i have a stainless steel cathode that fits nicely in a 2L beaker. I used it to produce around 5 kilos before i redesigned, im not using it any more Id be happy to send it to you.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 2, 2022)

Gwar said:


> Well until my new furnace arrives, I thought I would try the silver cell again and with the new power source, I still am not getting enough amps or wattage, I plan on taking it to work and talk with one of our electrical engineers and get a crash course on theory, use, etc; so, I pulled out the old power source and wired it up and the cathode started to grow a small silvery beard, the crystals are not even close to what I was producing a week ago, I did use the same electrolyte, perhaps it's a bit weak or altogether used up ? I will try again tomorrow with a fresh batch.


If you're still using the same cathode with 10.25 square inches of surface area, then your amps are too low still. Your reading is only at 0.045 Amps, you should adjust your A-Course knob to 1.743 Amps minimum. Your volts of 03.53 is fine.


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## Gsracer (Mar 2, 2022)

Ams. On that power supply. It works either on constant voltage or constant current. The cv light is lit up. Indicating he’s using constant voltage. The voltage should remain constant at 3.5 v and the amperage will rise till it maxes out the power supply. 

He’s not getting amperage because of another reason. Resistance. Connection issue. Etc. 

Gwar confirm that you have the a course knob turned fully to the maximum setting.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 2, 2022)

Gsracer said:


> Ams. On that power supply. It works either on constant voltage or constant current. The cv light is lit up. Indicating he’s using constant voltage. The voltage should remain constant at 3.5 v and the amperage will rise till it maxes out the power supply.
> 
> He’s not getting amperage because of another reason. Resistance. Connection issue. Etc.
> 
> Gwar confirm that you have the a course knob turned fully to the maximum setting.


I went back and looked at the picture just now, you are right it is on CV. That's a weird function. If that's the case, I would change over to CC (Constant Current), and see what the volt number read out would be.

I figured it could've been a resistance, connection, etc. issue as well. I had brought up that up in the past in another post of the OPs, but I do thank you for seconding that as well. It seems to be something drastic that's for sure,


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## Gwar (Mar 2, 2022)

This is where I am at as of now, I did switch over to stainless steel bowl, I bought another 208 Canadian dimes and 10ozt of rounds, I may just start a fresh electrolytic solution, it certainly doesn't help my furnace won't be here for a week and I'm heading to Los Angeles for 12 days, kind of bummed out..


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## Gsracer (Mar 2, 2022)

what are you using as an anode bag?

There is clearly something wrong, there is no way you should be getting that low of amperage at that voltage.


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## Gwar (Mar 2, 2022)

I agree, I talked to an engineer today and he said something is off as well, I wonder if I received a bum power supply ?


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## Gwar (Mar 2, 2022)

I am using a Multi-Fit shop vac filter..


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## Gsracer (Mar 2, 2022)

i doubt it, id say its the bags, sreetips uses dacron cloth bags. I assume thats what your modeling it after. The dacron bags are white, the blue ones are coated with some plastic. i think thats your problem, just for the sake of an experiment. Take another anode basket and take an old tshirt and use that as an anode bag. I think you will be surprised.


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## Gwar (Mar 2, 2022)

Thanks Gsracer, I will try that !


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

I have exchanged the filter for t-shirt material, last night while using the old P.C. power source, the negative lead was very hot to the touch, I currently (no pun intended) have this reading, looks to me as not enough voltage and too may amps, I was able to produce a good amount of silver around the bowl and a clump of crystal was forming before shut down.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Well, it's good the T-shirt material worked for you. I see that you have it set on CC now. Turn your amps down with the A-Course knob to 1.743 Amps minimum. This should remediate the hotness you were experiencing from the copper.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Hold on, lol. I'm on the phone so I had to reread your last post. Are you using the stainless bowl again?


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Yes, Stainless..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Ahhhh, okay. Well the minimum amp number I gave you was for the graphite cathode. What is the surface area of that bowl?


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Just a hair under 10" in circumference and 6" deep


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

You'll need Radius, diameter, and volume to determine the surface area.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Well, surface area of 235.5 square inches. Let's look at the negative lead material then. It may be too restricted, which is why it's getting hot.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

The numbers you're getting on the supply are okay for the stainless bowl. They're actually on the lower end considering your surface area.


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## Gsracer (Mar 4, 2022)

Agreed, up your wire gauge and termination points. Don't worry so much about the voltage as its the amperage that does the work, Just make sure you dont go over 3.5 volts. Also when you get a chance, swap out the tshirt material for some muslin cloth from walmart. Its cheap and by the yard. Works great as an anode filter. 

Glad you got it sorted.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Do the crystal look chunky, or are they long and thin?


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Thanks guys ! Thin so far..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Gsracer said:


> Agreed, up your wire gauge and termination points. Don't worry so much about the voltage as its the amperage that does the work, Just make sure you dont go over 3.5 volts. Also when you get a chance, swap out the tshirt material for some muslin cloth from walmart. Its cheap and by the yard. Works great as an anode filter.
> 
> Glad you got it sorted.


Was just typing voltage limit lol. Also, I agree on the Muslin cloth. Or 5-10 micron polypropylene felt filter material.

To OP: The 1.5 Volts to 3.5 volts range is ideal for your setup.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Thin. How tall, over what period of time. A guesstimate is fine since you're currently in process.


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

A very small amount over a few hours, I am new to this, and it seems based on the threads here on the Forum I am having less success than most, I believe the key is reading up more on the subject, however, I feel the new power source is not providing adequate current or amps, I am going to perform some tests with small electronic devices, it also seems as if it is not programmable to my needs., I started with 5ozt and 250ml HNO3 with 250ml DI, the silver wasn't dissolving as much as before, I added another 150ml of both again and afterwards diluted with 500-600ml DI, it is apparent that the solution has turned a cloudy green/blue color and not as transparent or clear as the first experiment.


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## Gsracer (Mar 4, 2022)

Thin is probably too much amperage, i had the same problem on my new cell, i had to turn down the amperage. It WILL slow down the growth but make denser crystals. Try to adjust the amperage to 3.00 amps, you have alot of cathode, but a small anode.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Gwar said:


> A very small amount over a few hours, I am new to this, and it seems based on the threads here on the Forum I am having less success than most, I believe the key is reading up more on the subject, however, I feel the new power source is not providing adequate current or amps, I am going to perform some tests with small electronic devices, it also seems as if it is not programmable to my needs., I started with 5ozt and 250ml HNO3 with 250ml DI, the silver wasn't dissolving as much as before, I added another 150ml of both again and afterwards diluted with 500-600ml DI, it is apparent that the solution has turned a cloudy green/blue color and not as transparent or clear as the first experiment.


The small amount is fine. The important part is your setup is actually working now, so let's continue with that, and improve on it. Research is always a good thing, the more knowledge the better, but it will still only be a general guide, and not exact to your setup. You have to make it exact. As far as your success, don't judge it by others, there may be a lot of information, trial and error that wasn't mentioned. The only success you need to worry about is the real results that you're getting. 

On the power source not being adequate, that could potentially be, but there is not enough information yet to be conclusive of that statement. What are the max outputs of that equipment as far as the specs provided in your manual?

For 5 ounces, you should've had to use about 475 ml. of your 50/50 mixture to dissolve into silver nitrate before finally diluting further into your electrolyte solution silver/liter ratios. If your solution is cloudy, this could be due to contamination.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Gsracer said:


> Thin is probably too much amperage, i had the same problem on my new cell, i had to turn down the amperage. It WILL slow down the growth but make denser crystals. Try to adjust the amperage to 3.00 amps, you have alot of cathode, but a small anode.


I second this. Lower amperage, slower more pure growth.

Also, even though the t-shirt material is working for you. The thin crystals could be due to the fact of improper micron filtration sizes. The t-shirt material is really going to allow too many silver particles to be filtered through too quickly. Lowering the amperage will help in this, but also getting a proper filtering material will help immensely.


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

I think I may have had some progress, I was using a 5ozt bar for an anode, so it may have been causing the draw and heat from the older power source, I have exchanged it for a 1ozt round and re-attached the new DC Power supply and now it's adjustable, I will see if this helps with the growth..


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Holy smokes, I had to turn the voltage and amps DOWN, it went through that round like butter..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Progress. I'd definitely like to see a picture of the anode basket when hooked up, in operation.


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Not the best angle..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Thank you for the pictures. Well, it'll definitely work better with smaller amounts of silver anode at a time. The wire gauge, and the issues you had before make a lot of sense now. What is that, 18-20 gauge wire?


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Yes, 18-20 gauge..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

That would definitely contribute to the heat you were getting. The wire is a quite a bit small/thin. I would go to a thicker gauge wire. What is the gauge coming from the supply?


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Between 10-12 Gauge.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Could you show me the connection where it switches from 10-12 to 18-20?


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

With that 5oz bar you were using as an anode, were you clipping the same wire to it?


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Not the desired way to make a connection, I was alternating between the old and new power supply via the fuse, not actual placement, for photo illustration only


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Yes, the same alligator clip..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Okay, well, we can fix that, and make a better anode rather easily.

I know you just suffered the loss of your furnace and crucible, do you have a another way to melt your silver at the moment?


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Just a very small crucible.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

I apologize the blueprint is a bit crude, but this should give you an idea of what to make with my description of an anode design.

The wire from the hook, to the anode is one long wire. 10 gauge wire is ideal.

*For others that are reading this with a translation program, the following typed below, is what is written on the paper with a little more description.*

Start with a 2ft.-3ft. Section of 10 gauge solid awg wire. Strip a small bit of insulation on one side and create a hook/loop, this end will be attached to the power supply (This is the image on top right of the blueprint.).

On the other end of the wire, remove 4in. - 5in. of insulation and make an *L*.

Using the *L* side of your wire section: Suspend the bottom part of the *L* (horizontal part) in the middle of your mold. You want the wire to be centered in the mold. Completely centered in the x-axis, y-axis, and z-axis. It should not be touching the mold. This is the solid black line on the blueprint with the dashed line box around the bottom part (Image on bottom left of blueprint.).

You will then proceed to pour your molten silver into the mold, completely covering the copper wire evenly on all sides (This is represented by the dashed line box, that is surrounding the solid line in the bottom left image of the blueprint.).

Once the silver has solidified, you will now have an ingot with the copper wire trapped in the middle. You have just made a silver anode that will connect directly to your power supply with no breaks in the connection. This design cuts out contact points (terminal points) that will add unnecessary resistance, and potential failure points.


Edit* Grammar, and added a description of blueprint for people using translation programs.


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Many thanks !! I will make one as soon as I get the heat source..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

You're welcome, I hope it helps.

Directions for use:

You would fill your basket, and set this on top. When the basket gets low (before this piece would get to the electrolyte), lift up the anode, refill the basket, then set the anode back on top of the newly refilled basket.

This will allow you to eliminate the clip and smaller gauge wire. You can play around with the shape and molds you have available to figure out what works best for you, and allow the anode (foot let's call it) to fall, and lower, as the silver underneath it gets used up.

Edits* Spelling, grammar.


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

I might have to turn it off for the night, how I wish the heat source was available, I could have made ounces of silver shot.. Thanks AMS-Pro, have a great night ! Mike


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## Gwar (Mar 4, 2022)

Thanks again !


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Gwar said:


> I might have to turn it off for the night, how I wish the heat source was available, I could have made ounces of silver shot.. Thanks AMS-Pro, have a great night ! Mike


Okay lol, I'll be rooting for your heat source to arrive early.

You're welcome again, I'm glad I could help. You as well, good night.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Gwar said:


> Thanks again !


Expect small crystals for first 24 hrs. or so, 2-4 days of growing for good chunky crystals.


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## Gsracer (Mar 4, 2022)

Yes definitely expect small crystals as ams said. After a few days they should beef up. The power supply your using is basically the same as mine, it should work with no issues.

Looks like your getting it sorted out. That’s great.

To help visualize the connections and anodes this is what i use..

Try to go 10 gauge. I have found even at low amps 14 gauge heads up and start to drop voltage at the cell.

You can pour a small bar with a piece of silver hammered into a wire. I make my anodes out of cement silver.

That way if they drop into the cell, no worries. Its just refining the silver i already wanted to refine.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 4, 2022)

Gsracer said:


> Yes definitely expect small crystals as ams said. After a few days they should beef up. The power supply your using is basically the same as mine, it should work with no issues.
> 
> Looks like your getting it sorted out. That’s great.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was typing about, thank you for having the pictures to show.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

About the size of a hamburger patty, second harvest, not the best but I will take the advise and make better decisions and rig, First batch was 2.3 ozt, second is yet to be determined, I sill have fresh electrolyte and I'm confident the container holds more, I just don't have the time today and I leave for two weeks tomorrow.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Not bad, I look forward to seeing your future setup. Don't be too distracted thinking about it on your trip lol. Safe travels.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

Thanks, I'm packing (sort of) while I'm writing this, I think I should concentrate on formulations for the process, I have started a spread sheet based on projected ounces possible to be reclaimed from my material source.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Formulations would be good. A graphing notebook is great for this, and to jot down design ideas when you have them.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

I tend to keep one by the bed usually. I lucid dream, so occasionally I have dreams that include fascinating pieces of equipment that I don't believe currently exist except in that notebook. My latest one, I have to rewrite/redraw, I had to put it on paper with a marker, the pen had dissapeared. It was certainly frustrating to recall what I could while the ink was just bleeding and being splotchy.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

Very nice, I usually write or draw my ideas as well, I have put in motion a design that may be quite laughed at, but I am determined to see that project through, I have already ordered some of the components..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

It's only funny to some, until it makes you a lot of money, or solves a major problem in the world. It only takes one. The follow through is the best part, and ordering stuff to build is great because it makes the dream or idea real.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

I have other drawings of the other pieces that go along with the one I showed, for the rest of what I saw in the dream. It's going to take a while to figure out what it's really meant for. The overall idea that I've figured out at this point, is that it's meant to replace actual physical labor involved with the handling of molten metal in large scale foundry crucibles, including the crucible design itself.

There was a similar piece of equipment that I spent over a year of my life operating, that I think the dream idea was modeled after. However, although it was also an automatic press, unlike the dream, the die assembly was bolted to the press, and it used a double arm transfer system to move the parts in the molds.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

But that's enough about that lol, I don't want to hijack your thread and stray from the topic of it. I look forward to seeing how you improve your setup, and the ideas you implement.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

One of the things I found helpful in the process of the spreadsheet and setup, is regardless of the amount material available, you should run only the average you think you will always have available. This way you can run when you're having a problem with source material, and are running on reserves/stockpiles. It's better to keep your equipment constantly running/operating, than to start and stop a lot, or for the equipment to sit idle. When you're equipment is idle for certain periods of time, or you're constantly starting/stopping, that's when problems like to rear their head and appear.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

No, don't worry about hijacking the thread, it's good to get ideas and talk, that's how some people are inspired..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Gwar said:


> No, don't worry about hijacking the thread, it's good to get ideas and talk, that's how some people are inspired..


Alright, if you're okay with it. I agree, with talking and getting ideas for inspiration. Are you going to let the silver nitrate just sit while your gone, or do a crystal tree grow?


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

I currently have it stored in jars; I hope it can be salvaged upon return, I would like to incorporate one of these into a stamping press, I have a few friends that can assist, it's just a matter of time and some $$, it's a rather easy design, it's the PSI and bore diameter / stroke that will take some math, the first diagram ( cylinder) is just for looks and is nowhere near what is needed, I have already commissioned a die and it will be here in a few weeks time..


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

I am trying to dry the silver crystals and bottle them up before I go tomorrow, I would like to know the ozt weight and look forward to the results


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

So, for clarity the goal is to stamp inscriptions into silver/gold etc. with a press and not by hand?


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

In time, many, many months or a year from now, the die I have on order is meant for a press, I will tinker a bit with it, but for now I mainly hand stamp weights only, and I may add I'm not very precise at the straightness..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Do you already have the press? It wouldn't take much, maybe 30-100 ton press.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

I have this in mind to start, there is a local steel company that has plenty of material for upgrading


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

I have read several threads here on the Forum about this subject, there are a lot of valid points for and against, I filled my first bottle 5ozt


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

That would work. But for consistency, and ease of use, you'll want a setup with a press pump, moving bolster, cushion pins, control block, accumulators. Incorporate a cutoff switch at the bottom of your stroke to reverse the pump. As far as stroke length, 12in.-15in. to give you enough safe working room, and an adjustable slide for your clearances. Most dies I have set up from small 100 lb. assemblies to 30,000 lb. die assemblies, I set at 50mil. (0.05 in.) Clearance on the lead test.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

So, I was doing the math on my spreadsheet based on some of the numbers you had mentioned earlier, it never occurred to me to take into account the melting of the copper in the coin silver as you posted
It takes 1.22 ml. of 70% Nitric to dissolve 1 gram of silver.
It takes 4.3 ml. of 70% Nitric to dissolve 1 gram of copper.

For 1 gram of Coin silver - 90/10, Ag/Cu:
(1.22 x .90) + (4.3 x .10) = 1.53 ml of 70% nitric or 3.06 ml of 50/50 nitric


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

That clearance has been the same whether it was mechanical, hydraulic, or servo presses.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Gwar said:


> So, I was doing the math on my spreadsheet based on some of the numbers you had mentioned earlier, it never occurred to me to take into account the melting of the copper in the coin silver as you posted
> It takes 1.22 ml. of 70% Nitric to dissolve 1 gram of silver.
> It takes 4.3 ml. of 70% Nitric to dissolve 1 gram of copper.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the copper usually gets you, that's why I just went ahead and included the numbers in the mixture to work with.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

The numbers can certainly vary on silver content, but 90/10 is a good ratio to expect.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

I am adding your equation to the spreadsheet, that will give me exact quantities for useage


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Yeah that would be good. When you're going with 50/50 ratios, the ideal range for nitric dilution was 35% - 41%. Usually diluting at 41% worked pretty well for me when making silver nitrate. Results were consistent, and it was relatively easy to make sure excess nitric was used up with a little material left to filter out. It was uncommon to a have cloudy solution.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

My first batch was clear as water, the second was a little less clear and then turned light blue


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Ratios off on the second batch, the blue would be copper nitrate.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Quick question on the stamping you want to do. Have you thought about using an arbor press? It would still be by hand, but it's definitely more affordable than a larger setup.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

I have purchased an Arbor press actually, it does an ok job at simple numbers and letters..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

It may be cheaper to just design your own press like you are, and talk to a machine shop. I have some designs I've been working on for smaller knuckle joint type press with higher tonnage limits. They could be modified for your purposes quite easily. The parts would cost around $1500 for the material to make the basic design.


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## Gwar (Mar 5, 2022)

That was my thinking as well, it should be possible, I have pondered if it would be needed to heat the bar a small amount just before pressing ? I already wet sand with a couple of different grits (320/400 etc after pouring anyway, I may lose a gram or two, but they sure shine up nicely, the bar pictured was when I first started pouring, I was using a low temperature / bare minimum and the pours were not great, I have since adjusted the heat level so that the silver pours and flows like a watery substance, it seems to work better also by having the mold pre heated as well..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 5, 2022)

Heating it up would help, and would allow to require less tonnage. Since you're just using it to stamp numbers, you could use an impact press.


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## Gwar (Mar 20, 2022)

Well I'm back from the work trip, I used a reciprocating saw and did lose a few grams in shavings, I also have about 3ozt still wrapped around the metal piece from the furnace, I might have to get creative and use a chisel as suggested to reclaim that silver, although, I didn't do that bad on the re-melt


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 20, 2022)

Wonderful on the safe travels, reads like you had a productive trip. 

Hopefully you collected the shavings, sort that at a later time. You've a picture of the coil? 

Good looking remolding.


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## Gwar (Mar 20, 2022)

AMS-Pro, I'll take a shot..


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## Gwar (Mar 20, 2022)

Here is what's left of the old furnace, I am saving it for parts, probably the only thing salvageable is the PID temp control, if I would have taken the time, I doubt it would be any different, the silver hockey puck was attached to the thermostat (I believe), so I was originally going for a kilo bar, I think I would have made it..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 21, 2022)

Well, it could be an interesting repair, or rig up. That coil itself could potentially still work if you carefully reshape the coil around a new ceramic canister. Could maybe find a ceramic canister at a pottery store, Walmart, Good will. Or, if you test coil and it works, take the coil to a pottery place with very good clay, make your own canister with the coils completely encased. Sometime tomorrow I'll pull out the graphing pad, and draw you up a design to work/toy around with. Could you give me an inside diameter, and height measurement of the steel/tin cylinder? Maybe a better idea of where the connection points are to the base, with measurements inside a circle as a pattern? It would help to have the length of the coil itself, but, maybe use a twine, and follow along it for a length measurement. The less bending of the coil the better. You could just buy a new ceramic canister, and coil for a little more than $100 or so, but it could be cheaper to make with what you have if the coil still works.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 21, 2022)

The diameter of the coil would help as well in the design of the canister.


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## Gwar (Mar 21, 2022)

I certainly could measure the LxWxH and length of the coil / diameter sometime tomorrow..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 21, 2022)

Wonderful. I may not have to draw it up, if you see where I'm going with these images.


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## Gwar (Mar 21, 2022)

Wow! Nice rendition, I don't know if I have mentioned this before, my neighbor just by coincidence builds propane burners using old LP tanks, he melts copper from left-over scrap into bars, he has offered to build me a rig, if this new furnace fails or is going thru too many crucibles, I may take him up on the offer.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 21, 2022)

I fixed the pictures, and added a couple more. They should be much clearer, and you should be able to zoom in on them as well now.


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## Gwar (Mar 21, 2022)

I actually have a few choices of potters here in Grand Rapids, thanks for the input, they should be able to produce anything one desires..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 21, 2022)

Gwar said:


> Wow! Nice rendition, I don't know if I have mentioned this before, my neighbor just by coincidence builds propane burners using old LP tanks, he melts copper from left-over scrap into bars, he has offered to build me a rig, if this new furnace fails or is going thru too many crucibles, I may take him up on the offer.


It's always nice to have options ready at hand, plus it is a great excuse to get another new tool.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 21, 2022)

Gwar said:


> I actually have a few choices of potters here in Grand Rapids, thanks for the input, they should be able to produce anything one desires..


Wonderful, and you're welcome. I hope you get some good rates from them.


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## silver1 (Mar 21, 2022)

If you're going to do silver, Go Gas!
If the neighbor knows how to build furnaces, jump on it.
You will thank yourself later! If it's gold go with a torch.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 23, 2022)

I would also check locally, and see if you can find spools of 18 gauge Kanthal wire. You can use that wire to make your own coils, it's much cheaper then buying premade. The coils themselves are not difficult to make, a drill, wood block, and a dowel rod work just fine.


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## Gwar (Mar 23, 2022)

I actually just started a batch, I am curious as to how the silver cell will work, I have contacted a potter down the street, I believe he thinks I'm crazy, but I don't know if he fully understands the concept.. I'm building a new silver cell, starting with the graphite block, I drilled a hole in the side, I packed the hole with some extra wire, I think I wasn't getting good contact point to complete the circuit


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## Gwar (Mar 23, 2022)

I also beefed up the wiring from the power source with a heavier gauge ..


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## Gwar (Mar 23, 2022)

The fuse is a 5 amp..


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## Gwar (Mar 23, 2022)

Oh, AMS-Pro, I almost forgot the dimensions, 7' wide x 7 1/2 " in length, I did have to cut the coil, so that may be out of the equation..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 23, 2022)

You might want to test that silicon against your nitric solution for potential contamination. Silver Nitric is used for etching silicon.

Although the stranded wire will work, solid wire would be better. The fuse is good.

As far as the dimensions go, If you could get a ceramic shield with an outside diameter made to fit that, a wall thickness of 1/4 in. would probably work well.

Ceramic Shield: Outside diameter 6 3/4 in. roughly, inside diameter 6 1/2 in. roughly. 1/4 in. wall thickness.

Ceramic chamber without coil: Outside diameter 5 3/4 in. roughly, inside diameter 4 3/4 in. roughly. 1/2 in. wall thickness. Coil grooves 1/4 in. deep

The coil diameter is going to roughly be 3/8 in., this is going to add some thickness to the chamber.

Ceramic chamber with coil: Outside diameter 6 in. Roughly.

This will leave about 1/4 in. roughly of clearance between the coil/chamber, and the shield.

You'll need a topper/tabletop, and crucible with a flange made to fit.

Edit* The part of the crucible that will be inside of the coil chamber, is going to need to be about of 4 1/4 in., and the flange should be about 5 in. roughly. 

The tabletop should be about 1 in. thick., with a hole diameter of 4 3/8 in. roughly.


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 23, 2022)

You should be able to remove that red cylinder, or have an easy way to get to the coil contact points where it meets with base. Is that the case with your equipment?


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 23, 2022)

Depending on how its designed, you may need to make the diameter of the shield, and coil chamber smaller to allow room for the coil wires to drop down and connect.


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## Gwar (Mar 23, 2022)

I have a co-worker that can help me achieve this..


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## AMS-Pro (Mar 23, 2022)

Gwar said:


> I have a co-worker that can help me achieve this..


Wonderful, that'll work.


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