# NEED HELP, THINK I MADE A BOO BOO



## metalfish AR (Feb 21, 2010)

Me again...

I have a batch going that I used AR to refine and I used shor products (if you haven't seen my other posts) I precipitated it with storm precipitant which is shor's standard precipitant. It definitely tested positive for gold, took a while to drop but finally did. I tested it for gold content again before I decantered it to be sure and the liquid was gold free so I did the decanter and put HCL and water in it and put on the hot plate to start my rinsing per Harold's instructions that he had given me prior and now I have a completely clearish green liquid with no more "mud" at the bottom and the mud had a "sugary" appearance before it was heated but now it is gone and not testing positive for gold content. 
Does it make a difference in testing when the solution is boiling hot? I wouldn't think so but want to make sure.
Is it possible to "burn" gold up? I have been told numerous times that "your gold isn't going anywhere" but this solution tested at a high level of gold content yesterday and earlier today.
I do not understand what happened.
Yes, I have read HOKE'S book, am reading it again for good measure and just really need some help. Thank you in advance for any help ANYONE can give me!


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 21, 2010)

metalfish AR said:


> Me again...
> 
> I have a batch going that I used AR to refine and I used shor products (if you haven't seen my other posts) I precipitated it with storm precipitant which is shor's standard precipitant. It definitely tested positive for gold, took a while to drop but finally did. I tested it for gold content again before I decantered it to be sure and the liquid was gold free so I did the decanter and put HCL and water in it and put on the hot plate to start my rinsing per Harold's instructions that he had given me prior and now I have a completely clearish green liquid with no more "mud" at the bottom and the mud had a "sugary" appearance before it was heated but now it is gone and not testing positive for gold content.
> Does it make a difference in testing when the solution is boiling hot? I wouldn't think so but want to make sure.
> ...



Have you done a search on the forum for the process you are dealing with? Here are 2 searches for you to look thru.

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=shor&terms=all&author=&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=shore&terms=all&author=&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Metalfish AR, please don't take this personal! You have 2 people teaching you, follow thier instructions and if you get in a bind stop and ask them please. You are dealing with a sytem that is not used a lot here. Johnny can look at stuff and tell you what to do Harold can do it with his eye shut and his hands tied behind his back you can't get any better help.

_*If you are working on a process and you make a post keep the post's together there is no need to start 5 or 6 threads about every single problem you are having with a process. It really makes things confusing to most people.*_

Harold or someone could you please combine this post with his others. Thanks.


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## jimdoc (Feb 21, 2010)

I think you shouldn't use the Shor chemicals for now. Learn using what everybody here will know whats going on instead of guessing. I know the Shor stuff cost alot of money, but I think you should save it to experiment with once you know what you are doing better.
Jim


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## metalfish AR (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes, I understand. I used these chemicals since I had already bought a bunch of them.

Can someone please just at least answer one question for me?
Does gold register if you test the clear green solution boiling hot? It may sound like a stupid question, maybe not. Just seems that I keep asking questions and people don't seem to have the time to answer but have time to write me huge paragraphs on why they can't. Yes, I am getting help from Johnny but he is not at my beck and call and I don't want to call him up every time I have a question...I thought that was kinda what this website was for. I understand if you don't want to deal with me or answer me but if not then just don't answer at all. 
I do understand also that people here do not use shor products much and I read the threads given to me by barren and see why.
Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate all of you guys' help very much and hope to keep receiving it. I am just very frustrated right now!


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## jimdoc (Feb 21, 2010)

You need to have patience with what ever process you use. You are probably not getting answers because nobody is sure what's going on because of the Shor chemicals.I know why you used the chemicals, I would want to use them as well. But I think you should learn with the basics, and you will get better answers to your questions.
I waited a long time until I started processing anything once I got here
on this forum. Steve's videos helped alot. And I did everything to a tee
and it worked just fine. Unfortunately Steve doesn't have a Shor video
and I doubt he ever will. 
Jim


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## metalfish AR (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks Jim...where can I find steve's videos, is there a link or search key I can use?


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## jimdoc (Feb 21, 2010)

This is his website, the videos are on there.
http://www.goldrecovery.us/

Jim


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## metalfish AR (Feb 21, 2010)

thanks so much, it is very much appreciated...I will check these out anyway.


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## leavemealone (Feb 21, 2010)

Its the same website I sent you to a couple of weeks ago.The one that you said you couldn't get into.Did you ever email steve to ask him why you couldn't access the videos?
Johnny


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## lazersteve (Feb 21, 2010)

A sugar like powder that dissolves in acid sounds like copper I chloride to me. Copper I chloride can be off-white to light gray. 

Gold powder is dark brown to light tan colored. Gold in solution is yellow, orange or red, depending on the concentration. Green is a good indication of copper. Stannous can go bad and should be tested on a know sample of gold bearing solution as per Hoke.

Could you posts some more details about how you arrived at this points. I've several posts of yours and they all seem to start out with the last step and don't include any details about what you are processing, how much you are processing, and what steps you took to get to the dead end you are encountering.

How about you start at the beginning and explain what you did to get to this point. Start with the type of scrap and the amount you are processing. Next explain what you did to the scrap, etc. 

Steve


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## metalfish AR (Feb 21, 2010)

We started off with mill spec pins and the quantity was 1lb and they had lots of base metal. My mixture was HCL and Subzero (shor product for nitric) I pulled the base metals out before the base metal was completely deteriorated instead of dissolving base metals first in HCL. I filtered, filtered and filtered the solution and it then showed a very high content of dissolved gold. A very light drop turned BLACK instantly and left gold residue on the plate. I then precipitated with storm precipitant (also from shor) 1/2 tbs per ounce dissolved metal. Let it sit overnight being warmed slightly, not HOT. It still tested extremely positive for gold and so I let it sit longer per some advise I got from barren realms, I believe. Finally the gold dropped but it had that sugary substance with brown going through it like I said before. Then taking the advise of Harold I started the rinsing process with HCL and water bringing to a boil, and now it has dissapeared and liquid showing no gold content at all. I stopped boiling and it started crystalizing on the bottom again and looks like the gold might be coming back, I dont know. I am very concerned with this situation so if you could help me in laymen's terms that would be great. I wont quit till I get this right!!! I'm not trying to be the new gold baron of the world or anything, just trying to get this right and maybe make a living doing this. I had a BAD injury a few years ago and life has been pretty difficult since with not being able to go back to my screening business. I would appreciate any help very very much! Thank you.


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## metalfish AR (Feb 21, 2010)

Also,
Nobody seems to be able or want to answer this simple ? for me.
Can I test for dissolved gold in boiling hot liquid? Will it give a proper register? I got a great register until I boiled it.

It got rid of the sandy, sugary substance on the bottom (boiling in HCL and water) that had brown substance through it which was the gold. After boiling it I dont know if the heat prevented the stannous chloride from giving me a proper register. I really appreciate your help in this matter.


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## lazersteve (Feb 21, 2010)

One pound of mil-spec contacts won't give you much gold, between one to three grams depending on the quality of the contacts.

The storm precipitant should be the same thing as SMB, but I'm not 100% sure of that and for purposes of solving your problem I will assume it is *not* the same. If it is the same you should use no more then 2 grams of Storm per gram of dissolved gold. That would translate into 2-6 grams of SMB precipitant. If you have free nitric in the mix then a solution will require more SMB.

The sugar like crystals are likely excess precipitant or nitrate salt that is crystallizing out due to the lack of water in the reaction. If you see them again just add some water and stir until they dissolve.

The gold should form a fine sediment across the bottom of the reaction beaker. The color of this sediment should be between dark brown and light tan. 

Here's how I would pursue your problem:

Evaporate the solution down to 25% of it's current volume ( salts may form during this process due to excess precipitant), but do not dry out the solution. Also do not boil the solution, instead slowly evaporate it.

When the solution is reduced to 1/4 of it's volume add in enough HCl to bring the volume up to twice the level it is after the evaporation. Repeat this process twice more (three times total). On the final evaporation cycle add tap water to the solution instead of HCl. 

At this point if you still have the white, sugar-like crystals in the beaker, add just enough water to dissolve them. Some white particles are not water soluble and will need to be filtered out.

Next filter any remaining solids from the solution using a Charmin plug or glass frit and filter paper. The solution should be 100% transparent and free of sediment or cloudiness before you do anything else. The color of the solution should be light yellow to orange. A green color indicates copper contamination.

Finally, add in 2-6 grams of solid sodium meta-bisulfite, *not the Storm Precipitant*. Stir vigorously with a glass rod, within a few minutes the solution should cloud up with a dark brown color which will mostly settle in an hour or so. The cleaner the solution (yellow color), the faster the gold will settle. Green solutions will produce dirty gold that stays suspended longer and should be allowed to settle overnight.

Follow this advice and report back what you find. Do not short cut the process above. Perform every step as directed. If you observe something I did not mention, stop and post the results here.

Steve


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## lazersteve (Feb 21, 2010)

metalfish AR said:


> Also,
> Nobody seems to be able or want to answer this simple ? for me.
> Can I test for dissolved gold in boiling hot liquid? Will it give a proper register? I got a great register until I boiled it.



Stannous works on hot and cold solutions of gold. Stannous must be fresh or it will not indicate properly. When in doubt, make a fresh batch or test the current batch with a known gold standard solution.

Steve


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## leavemealone (Feb 22, 2010)

> I pulled the base metals out before the base metal was completely deteriorated



*EDIT*He pulled the undissolved material because it had the apprearance that the PM's had been digested already,and the only remaining solid product was undissolved base metals.



> I filtered, filtered and filtered the solution and it then showed a very high content of dissolved gold. A very light drop turned BLACK instantly and left gold residue on the plate. I then precipitated with storm precipitant (also from shor) 1/2 tbs per ounce dissolved metal.



I explained that you need to neutralize the nitrates before you percipitate.



> Let it sit overnight being warmed slightly, not HOT. It still tested extremely positive for gold and so I let it sit longer per some advise I got from barren realms, I believe. Finally the gold dropped but it had that sugary substance with brown going through it like I said before. Then taking the advise of Harold I started the rinsing process with HCL and water bringing to a boil, and now it has dissapeared and liquid showing no gold content at all.



What percipitated was base metals,more than likely due to the solution being heated overnight and concentrating it.Thats why everything dissolved into the Hcl and the solution tested negative.Gold is incapable of dissolving into 32%Hcl.



> I stopped boiling and it started crystalizing on the bottom again and looks like the gold might be coming back, I dont know.



These are various salts self percipitating due to the evaporation and condensing of the solution.The easiest way to verify this is to decant,and add water.If they are indeed salts they will dissolve in the water.



> just trying to get this right and maybe make a living doing this



I know your situation armando,and I understand where you are coming from,you've seen the scars.But I told you something the first day I was at your house,and I want to reiterate this.....it is extremely difficult to make a living at this,unless you are able to get your material for cheap or free.For almost every person on this forum,this is simply catagorized as a hobby that we are fortunate enough to make some extra money at.Even steve,with his unending knowledge of processing,has a regular job.And with the 1000's and 1000's of pounds of material I have,I still climb trees.And I've been doing this a while now.Listen brother,I feel for you I really do.I know what you are going through and I know what you are dreaming about...god knows I was there too.But getting this material free is almost unheard of,I am an exception to the rule.The only reason I was able to get as much material as I have for free,is because I have over 15 years worth of customers in every occupation known to man,and I am always talking about computers.And it doesn't hurt that I live next door to,NASA,Kennedy space center,rockwell collins,martin marietta,lockheed,united space alliance,boeing.....you get the idea.
The jewelry you are processing is worth a good amount,however if you keep buying it from ebay you will never make a significant profit,if you make a profit at all.The competition is so fierce that the profit margin is paper thin at best.
Ok vamp,my eyes are getting heavy.Im gonna go watch tv with hunter.I hope this helps you a lot.If I have said anything that sounded condescending or hurtful I am very sorry from the bottom of my heart.You are a super great guy,you just seem to be having an exceptionally hard time grasping this.
Johnny



**EDIT** Sorry steve I had already written by the time you posted.


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## metalfish AR (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks Johnny,

Yes I understand what you mean, I am right now in the middle of cordinating a big screen enclosure job right now so trust me...I am not counting on this as my bread and butter. I just got a different idea when your wife told my wife that this is how you guys are basically making your living right now. Oh well... I am a cross between a pit bull and an elephant, I dont give up and I never forget!!!! Thanks again for your help and hope you are having a great day.


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## metalfish AR (Feb 22, 2010)

Thank you steve so much, you have been so helpful. My wife and I go to bed kinda early so I just got your post this morning and am starting the process you suggested. I have some work going on today (unbelievable, some actual work to make some money!) so it will probably take me a while to get through it today. Thanks again, you have answered my questions perfectly!!!


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## leavemealone (Feb 22, 2010)

> Yes I understand what you mean, I am right now in the middle of cordinating a big screen enclosure job right now


Good to hear.I know you guys need the work pretty bad.Just wanted to pop in and said hey.
Johnny


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## metalfish AR (Feb 22, 2010)

I just stopped by my house, haven't been able to mess with the gold yet per steve's instructions as I have a super busy day with work but I wanted to put this out there. I definitely am not using shor anymore. I have a basic idea of the chemicals I need but I wanted to see if I could get a "shopping list" of exactly the chemicals I need to buy to do this process the way everyone here does it (AR) so I am prepared. If Steve or someone could do this for me it would be very much appreciated. This way I can be on the same page as everyone here! Those chems are too expensive anyway. Thanks in advance


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## metalfish AR (Feb 22, 2010)

Quick question I need to know: After I have dissolved base metals in HCL how do I seperate the two? (from the gold) What is the best way of decantering that without losing my gold? Am I supposed to wait until the base metals are COMPLETELY dissolved? In other words, are the base metals supposed to dissapear or be completely gone or just reduced to an amount that it doesn't contaminate your gold in the AR solution too much? 
Thanks again in advance :!:


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## leavemealone (Feb 22, 2010)

If you want I can get everything and bring it to you.But don't throw away the shor stuff.........keep it for your foils and karat jewelry.
If you want to get the products yourself here is your shopping list.
Muratic acid(You already know where to buy that since you have purchased it already)
(nitrate)NaNo3 sodium nitrate.Ace hardware under the name Nitre of Soda.

(percipitant)SMB Sodium Metabisulfite.Can be found in most Ace hardwares or Home Depots by the name Stumpout(manufactured by Bonide).
smb is kind of pricey so I use Copperas.Also can be found at ace.

And I believe you have everything else,filters,containers,melting dish,torch.
Johnny


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## metalfish AR (Feb 23, 2010)

Thanks so much Johnny, I appreciate it. I wouldn't even mind coming by your house and seeing how you have things set up and you could even show me how you run a batch to give me a little more insight/hands on teaching since we didn't get that far that day you were over. Thanks again for all of your help and hope your having a nice day.


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## leavemealone (Feb 23, 2010)

Trust me you don't want to come here.Its mess and we have some of our stuff packed for the move,still trying to go on vacation and trying to get a friend to take care of our dogs.So we are kind of crazy around here right now.
Johnny


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 23, 2010)

leavemealone and metalfish AR,

How about doing this personal stuff in a PM?


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## leavemealone (Feb 23, 2010)

Sorry about that chris.I'm gonna take a hiatus for a while anyways,so you guys can have a break from my long winded responses.
Sorry again,
Johnny


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## metalfish AR (Feb 28, 2010)

Yes, sorry about that. I am still wondering if someone can answer my question I copied below. I would really appreciate it...Thanks

Quick question I need to know: After I have dissolved base metals in HCL how do I seperate the two? (from the gold) What is the best way of decantering that without losing my gold? Am I supposed to wait until the base metals are COMPLETELY dissolved? In other words, are the base metals supposed to dissapear or be completely gone or just reduced to an amount that it doesn't contaminate your gold in the AR solution too much?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 28, 2010)

If you still have base metals continue with the HCL till they are gone.


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## butcher (Feb 28, 2010)

Quick question I need to know: After I have dissolved base metals in HCL how do I seperate the two? (from the gold) What is the best way of decantering that without losing my gold? Am I supposed to wait until the base metals are COMPLETELY dissolved? In other words, are the base metals supposed to dissapear or be completely gone or just reduced to an amount that it doesn't contaminate your gold in the AR solution too much?

I wonder why you are using HCL and not nitric? is it tin you are after?

gold will not dissolve in HCl without a strong oxidizer, even copper will be hard to dissolve without some oxidizer, the trick is to dissolve all the base metals (you can not expect a complete seperation as there will always be some left or else some gold in solution), and yes you want all base metals in solution that you can, 
if you do not dissolve all of the base metals any gold which is in solution will plate back to the remaining copper (undissolved metal) you will not be able to tell the gold powder from the gold powder by looking, so the notion that a person can just dissolve the gold off the copper and leave the remaining base metals undissolved is a false one (at least with these chemical methods) dissolving all of the base metals is nessary or you will still have gold with the undissolved copper.
if you do not throw out filters and keep a stock pot you will not loose gold, although you can missplace it for awhile, and you also need to have stannous chloride , or else how are you going to tell if gold is dissolved in solution? just the color of a solution can be an old trick to fool you, but a properly applied stannous test can be a tool to see for sure, why eliminate the base metal, it isn't only the contamination of gold from base metals as much as it is the problems they cause with the process, and your ability to get and keep the get gold where you want it through out the process, decanting is a process of removeing the liquids (dissolved base metals and leaving the gold powders or flakes at bottom undisturbed) this can be done by pouring off liquid slowly, or a small hose to sypher off liquid, or a suction bulb type syringe or eye dropper to remove liquid, (filtering the decanted liquid is always a good Idea as you may have some powder or floating foils),
and metalfish, aqua regia is hard for a beginner to master HCL/ Bleach method is somewhat easier, as eliminating the oxidizers can be where most will have trouble from testing and precipitating.

hope this gives you a few clues, as I have not followed where you are in this process and what materials or your process up to this point.


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## metalfish AR (Mar 3, 2010)

butcher: THANK YOU! I kept getting the advise to dissolve the base metals in HCL but in Hoke's book along with other things I have read say nitric so I did not understand why I was being told HCL but I was trying to follow as I was told. Unbelievable, I was right but I was trying to take everyone's advise here and you can see in previous posts that I was being told HCL. Maybe everyone misunderstood what I was after. Wow...havent even finished reading your post but just had to respond to that immediately! Thanks again :lol:


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## metalfish AR (Mar 3, 2010)

buther: right now we have about 1 1/2 lbs "pins" in HCL dissolving base metals as we have been told to. Now we are trying to figure out how to get the junk decantered out without losing the flakes so thanks for your advice on that. Yes, we have been testing for dissolved metal in solution so we know all about that. We use AR method through shor products right now but were about to start buying our chemicals from the hardware store and such like everyone else. I am interested in this clorox method. Can you or someone give me a link to instructions on that method? I haven't gotten that far in the handbook yet. Thanks so much again for your help and suggestions, extremely helpful!


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## metalfish AR (Mar 7, 2010)

What would happen if I added a little too much Nitre of Soda to my AR solution? Is this possible and/or what are the problems that will arise from this?


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## metalfish AR (Mar 7, 2010)

I was removing base metals with HCL with a small amount of heat on a hot plate, it got a little carried away so I turned the heat down. I noticed there was a lot of substance stuck around the top of the beaker, I scraped it all off and poured it into a bucket together. I then added about 10tbs of nitric to it and now after an hour or so the liquid is testing not positive for gold and there is a sandy substance at the bottom. I know for a fact that my connecter pins were positive for gold so I know it didn't go anywhere. Should I maybe decant the liquid and re-refine it? I thought that might be the route I needed to take but wanted to check to see if anyone here had any thoughts?


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## Palladium (Mar 7, 2010)

Adding extra nitrate to the solution will throw the test off because of the extra oxidizer. Boil away the extra nitric and then test. Boil it down a couple of times each time adding hcl to make up the volume.


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## metalfish AR (Mar 8, 2010)

Thank you Palladium, I did this once and now I have a solid layer of grayish whitish foam on top which is crusty looking...would this be the extra nitric and okay to scoop off and remove? Thanks again, I think I am on the right track.


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## butcher (Mar 9, 2010)

try dissolving in water


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## metalfish AR (Mar 9, 2010)

I have asked this a couple times but never really got a clear straight answer so forgive me for asking again but after I dissolve the base metals (the first I have been taught this is since joining this forum) what exactly do I do with the solution after that? Filter it and then proceed with AR?


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## lazersteve (Mar 9, 2010)

Fish,

If you have removed the base metals using nitric acid or AP, simply let the gold powder or foils settle then siphon or carefully pour off the solution from the gold. Next properly was and then dissolve in AR, HCl-Cl ,etc. Be sure to test the solution for any dissolved precious metals before proper disposal.

Steve


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## metalfish AR (Mar 10, 2010)

Thank you SO much Steve, I am now perfectly clear on this now!

I have a couple more questions if someone doesn't mind answering for me:

Will HCl clean copper out of the gold if it has gotten in there before I dry and melt the gold?

Will precipitating your gold, will it ONLY precipitate gold or other metals also? Mr, know it all pete from shor international told me it would only precipitate gold but I have read posts on here saying you could drop base metals or other metals also. Please clarify this as I don't think Peter knew what he was talking about there.

I blew up a glass container on my hot plate, got too hot and it was too cool outside so the glass exploded. Luckily I was removing base metals and most of liquid was gone. The spill spilled onto the hotplate and table I had it on, very little on the ground, There is gold in all the shards of glass and whatnot and I am looking to salvage it, I picked up everything with gold on it and it is now in another glass container in an HCl in it. What can I do next to salvage this. Would I just go ahead and AR it?

What exactly does borax clean out of the gold? I think the water (tap) I have is doing something to my solutions. I don't know if I have copper levels in my water or not. I think it is screwing my tests up (stannous) and my gold powder.

Thanks in advance if someone could answer these for me, you guys are a great help, especially you steve, you really go out of your way to help and I will definitely be buying some of your videos just as soon as I have some extra funds and making a donation for the upkeep of this site and it is all due to you since I really have gotten the best advise between you and Harold. Thanks again steve for all your help you seem like a super nice good guy and you too Harold...No offense to anyone else as barren and butcher and a lot of you guys have given me GREAT advice as a beginner!


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## lazersteve (Mar 10, 2010)

Fish,

HCl will clean small amounts of copper out of gold, especially if the copper is finely divided powder.

Excess SMB will convert some of the copper II chloride present in your solutions to copper I chloride which will form a solid and report in your gold powder. This is why you always remove the base metals before dissolving the gold. 

Some PGMs, if present in the source material, will also report in the gold if the nitric is not fully removed from your solutions before adding SMB.

Treat the shards of broken glass with AR and you'll get whatever gold was stuck to them. The glass won't be harmed.

Borax is used as a means to help the gold form a nice button in the dish. It also serves to remove the last traces of contamination in the gold powder. Soda ash and a few pellets of sodium nitrate can also assist in the final clean up. Get in the habit of properly washing your gold after it is precipitated and you won't need to resort to any 'clean up' in the melting dish.

Steve


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## qst42know (Mar 10, 2010)

Too many cooks in this broth. From your own posts I see several missed steps, one step at a time and in the proper order.

At the risk of adding one more bit of advice, I think it's time you designate a driver to get you through this one.

P.S. I wouldn't think your tap water has enough copper in it to cause problems or you wouldn't be drinking it.


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