# your honest opinion please



## necromancer (Apr 4, 2014)

Hi All,

honesty is the best policy, and i see no better bunch to get 100% honesty from.

what do you think about this ?


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## etack (Apr 4, 2014)

I wouldn't say .999 but what is you end result for?

I make it close. gold pays 99% pure or close. 8) 

Eric


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## Smack (Apr 5, 2014)

Lack of pipe and dull surface says it has impurities. Did you acid test it? An acid test should be able to get you in the ball park. Over all though I would say it needs re-refined, some gold to refine is better than no gold to refine.


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## Anonymous (Apr 5, 2014)

Dave did you completely melt it to the point of it being a truly circular molten bead?

The shape and texture seem a little "off." Is the colour on the lower parts of the metal a reflection from the pad it's on?


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## necromancer (Apr 5, 2014)

awwww, thanks 8) 

no clues from me yet, i will take another photo with no flash & in better light.

will need to be late tomorrow, always lots of pickups on the weekends


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## Geo (Apr 6, 2014)

I am going to make a wild guess and say that it looks to me like it may have iron contamination. If you are going to sell it for weight, in my opinion, it's pure enough. If you want bullion grade gold, it will have to be refined again. If you had a small bead of this gold, you could do a simple test for iron. flatten the bead with a hammer and see how flat you can make the bead before the bead makes a crack. Iron makes gold brittle and the bead will crack open before it flattens out. It doesn't take a lot of iron, <1%. If you can flatten a bead of gold as flat as a foil without it cracking, it would be pure gold.


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## nickvc (Apr 6, 2014)

I suspect spaceships may be right try remelting it and see if it looks better, the metal needs to be fully molten to get a decent surface.


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## necromancer (Apr 7, 2014)

didnt get to take other photos, for sure will do tomorrow.

honest opinion's still very welcome


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 7, 2014)

As a prideful refiner that only wants the best coming out of my shop, I wouldn't be satisfied with that button. I would definitely re-refine it, were it me.


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## necromancer (Apr 8, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> As a prideful refiner that only wants the best coming out of my shop, I wouldn't be satisfied with that button. I would definitely re-refine it, were it me.




thank you GSP


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## necromancer (Apr 9, 2014)

here is the new photo. i have added another button to view

made by all the same process




thank you for your comments


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## maynman1751 (Apr 9, 2014)

What are you using to melt with i.e. what torch. I agree that there is still some contamination, but it also looks as though you are not getting a good molten bead, as was previously suggested. If it were me, I would re-refine it using Harold's washing method. You WILL BE amazed at how much more beautiful your gold will look.


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## necromancer (Apr 9, 2014)

these were done with a straight mapp gas torch.


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## Geo (Apr 9, 2014)

If you decide to refine it again, either shot it (which would be hard to do using mapp gas) or to roll or beat the button flat to give the acid more surface area to work with. It goes a lot faster the second time and the solution will look clean and golden until you drop the gold and you see the remaining color of the solution.


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## joubjonn (Apr 9, 2014)

Could you just use a hammer for that? I guess you would want to clean the hammer face a lot to make sure you didn't transfer any material to the gold.


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## Geo (Apr 10, 2014)

joubjonn said:


> Could you just use a hammer for that? I guess you would want to clean the hammer face a lot to make sure you didn't transfer any material to the gold.



Clean tools goes along with clean equipment and clean work habits. Everything you use when refining needs to be as clean as you can get it. Gold will absorb contamination from just about anything and certainly any other metal. In this case, be sure your tools are not rusty. 

Yes, a hammer and a heavy piece of steel like an anvil or other thick heavy piece of steel will work. Shotting is always preferred but low tech also works well.


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## Anonymous (Apr 10, 2014)

Geo said:


> If you decide to refine it again, either shot it (which would be hard to do using mapp gas) or to roll or beat the button flat to give the acid more surface area to work with. It goes a lot faster the second time and the solution will look clean and golden until you drop the gold and you see the remaining color of the solution.



Geo can I ask why you think it would be hard to shot using a map gas torch?


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## joubjonn (Apr 10, 2014)

From experience it is hard to shot with mapp gas. Just don't get enough heat to keep the material liquid while also keeping the crucible hot enough. I have done it with small amounts but it isn't easy.


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## Geo (Apr 10, 2014)

Besides the obvious evidence of the photo that shows the melt is not hot enough, simply melting gold in a dish and pouring it into water will not make shot. You need a shotting dish and a way to keep it hot. The gold needs to be in a fully liquid state and hot enough to remain a liquid while being poured. The beads are formed as the the liquid metal is in the air. Without enough heat to bring the melt to near white hot, it will form cornflake type material instead of beads. The torch needs to be held on the melt as its poured through the shotting dish.


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## dannlee (Apr 10, 2014)

Sure - it can melt under one torch but not have enough heat left to stay fluid while getting parted up into droplets. Preheating the melting dish w/ button in it on a gas range burner (or with a second torch) then hitting the metal with your MAPP burner might get the melt hot, thin and runny enough to break up into small droplets correctly.


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## Anonymous (Apr 10, 2014)

Thanks guys.

I've shotted with mapp, but as was mentioned by dannlee the crucible was heated from below. Thanks for the input.


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## moose7802 (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm late to the party, but I would definitely give that another refine if I were you. Filtering is crucial the more impurities you get out filtering the easier washing is. I drop, then boil 3× in water, boil 3× in hcl, then 3 more times in water and melt. It's also important to have a clean dish the borax will capture some impurities if there are any, then when you melt again and roll your molten gold around in the dish you can pick these back up and will have that hazey oxide look on your Au.

Just my humble opinion
Tyler


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## necromancer (Apr 21, 2014)

just bumping, still needing comments please


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## MGH (Apr 22, 2014)

I guess we're all just wondering now what you're getting at. I think you've heard the honest opinions of some experienced members and they happen to concur with each other. I’ll add mine for good measure: It looks like gold, and may well be up around 99%, which is respectable if you’re selling to some buyer in the chain and you or the buyer has the capability to do some assay (even if just XRF) and can agree on a price. But it’s most likely below .999 purity.

Can you be more specific about the feedback you’re looking for?


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## necromancer (Apr 23, 2014)

i brought the 20g button to a high end jewelers at the yorkdale mall in toronto today, they have a XRF

touch stone test said 14 - 18k

was told the button was 81% gold or about 18k.

i had a grf member recover this for me, i was told (by them) that i will be getting 22k or 23k gold back.
looks like i got lots of copper & iron for the 20% they charged me, really feel ripped off !!!!!


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## bmgold2 (Apr 24, 2014)

necromancer said:


> i brought the 20g button to a high end jewelers at the yorkdale mall in toronto today, they have a XRF
> 
> touch stone test said 14 - 18k
> 
> ...



I don't know who you had refine/recover this gold but MAYBE they would be willing to re-refine it again. I'd hate to think that one of our members KNOWINGLY ripped you off. I know it is hard to please everyone but if they really believed they were selling 22-23K gold and it turned out they got some contamination, they might want to make it right.

Of course, now that it has been remelted, there is no real way to tell where or when the contamination happened. Look at it from the seller's point of view. If you truly believed you sold 22K gold and the buyer states they got 18K instead, who is right?

You are probably stuck with what you got. Consider it as the cost of education and move on with fixing it. At least let the seller know how you feel (if you haven't already) and then go from there. Might not hurt to have it tested somewhere else if you can just to rule out a bad XRF reading. You never know, maybe that high end jeweler expected you to sell it to them and they ... You never know.

Good luck whatever you do.


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## necromancer (Apr 24, 2014)

its still the original button, never touched.

it goes beyond me being satisfied, when your told "you will get 22-23k" thats what i paid for & paying 1/5 of the total amount for an amateur refining job.

sad thing is that this person is using this forum & other forums to make money and doing a substandard job for others.
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a question for every person here, "who wants to pay 1/5 there gold to a amateur backyard refiner & get 18k gold back" ?


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## butcher (Apr 24, 2014)

necromancer, have you contacted this "Backyard refiner" so he could have a chance to make the deal good with you?
Or give Him a chance to re-refine your gold?

It does not sound like he was trying to refine it to high purity, or that you had expectation that He woulddo so, with this in mind the impure will have base-metals and oxides from the melt that would show up on the surface of the button, these will show up pronounced in the XRF scan, as mentioned above by other members.

The XRF would only be as good as the machine and its operator, and also some gold buyers may try to lower the value of your button to get your gold cheaper, with this in mind it may not be all the fault this "backyard refiner".

I really do not know.

If this is a fellow forum member I would try to work out this problem with Him, nobody wants to be cheated,and not everybody wishes to cheat another, although their are many who do not follow what is right.

It would be a shame to smear another members name for something that is not his fault, then again if this member is short changing you and other fellow member it should be known so that others are not cheated...

I would try to work this out with the " backyard refiner" and also make sure that the gold is as low of a quality as the man who scanned it with the XRF stated it was...

Barring a fire assay, have you had it tested with a stone and gold karat needles?


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## necromancer (Apr 24, 2014)

i am going to call http://www.actlabs.com/ tomorrow

will let you all know how it turns out. then i will be naming this person so no one else gets told they will be paying 20% for "22-23k fine gold" and really getting 18k

then all those others that have paid this person will know what they really got for there hard earned money.

but i guess when they are $60,000 dollars in the hole they need to survive any way they can, even if that means pinching a little off the top and cutting the product


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## necromancer (Apr 25, 2014)

necromancer said:


> http://www.actlabs.com/


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## necromancer (Apr 25, 2014)

a little quote from Harold_V



Harold_V said:


> Absolutely correct. If anyone on this board is shafted by another reader, make damned sure you report what happened, and do it publicly. In doing so, do NOT lead the readers. Don't make any recommendations----simply state what transpired, leaving out your opinions. State only the facts, as you know them, and how you got the short end of the stick. No one is culpable when the truth I spoken.
> 
> Harold



Edited the link pointing to a members name:
I see no facts that support such an accusation; I do see where readers have been lead to believe something without knowing the all of the facts, of what all has transpired.


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## Anonymous (Apr 25, 2014)

Necro (Dave) you've been a member long enough to know that the button you have wasn't very pure. Regardless of how it was melted. I would take the advice of my betters on this forum and re-refine because frankly it looks quite contaminated. 

You know the drill mate. Remove most of the rubbish and then you won't have to worry about the assay results people give you because you'll be sure of where you stand.

Jon


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## necromancer (Apr 25, 2014)

my concern is how much gold is really there ?

i will find out soon enough. anyone processed in total 22 lbs of random 386 / 486 ?
what was your total yield of gold and silver ? (please save me the search)

i won't include the other amounts of high grade escrap from vintage servers, cellular communications towers, medical equipment, R/F equipment & so on.

i know its a random total amount that will sway but what i have read here never added up to what i have been given in return. i am going to process 10 lbs of 386 / 486 myself, it will be my "very first" try at recovery. i have tried a small amount of ceramic IC's (there still in there original acid bath) and 3.5 lbs of mlcc which have been digested in HCL & H2O2 filtered well, dried to powder and stored for later recovery of the silver & palladium.

as someone that only seen here on the forum people posting there fine gold photo's (which are beautiful) the difference between 3n's, 4n's & 81% gold content is extreme.


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## moose7802 (Apr 28, 2014)

386 and 486's can run as high as 3.6 grams per pound! At 22 lbs you should have gotten at least 66 grams. That's at a low yield of 3 grams per pound. I have run more than a few batches of 386's and the least I got was 3.5 grams per pound! 

Tyler


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## srlaulis (May 21, 2014)

Did you get right with your refiner? If not, then I would like to know who you worked with, so I can avoid him/her.


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## necromancer (May 21, 2014)

srlaulis said:


> Did you get right with your refiner? If not, then I would like to know who you worked with, so I can avoid him/her.




no, i will not be trying to. here on the GRF we are all told that recovery is 99% & refining is 1%. they failed the 1%
there are also some other issues that i will keep to myself

Edited the link pointing to a members name:
I see no facts that support such an accusation; I do see where readers have been lead to believe something without knowing the all of the facts, of what all has transpired.


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## butcher (May 23, 2014)

I have a PM to the other party, I would like to hear more of the other side of this story, something smells fishy, and this smell seems to have created a lot of problem on our forum, I would like to find out where this smell is coming from.


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## butcher (May 23, 2014)

Yield results are often controversial. Generally it's because the individual has unreasonable expectations, and may not willing to listen to reason.

After a brief email to this other party.
Which at this point I have no reason to believe is nothing more than an honest person, and refiner, and someone who tried to be a friend to help someone out, is being falsely accused of wrong doing, and having a good name drug through the mud with this innuendo.

As an outsider to this problem, there is not much of a way that I could be of much help to resolve the problem of these two members, or know everything this is all about.

If you cannot solve this problem between you and your former friend, or are unwilling to face the truth, that is one thing, Yield results are often controversial, I do not what the case is for this disagreement in yields is or which party is the problem side, or if there is some other underlying problem here, that has little to do with this gold in question,.
I do not know if anyone was cheated or not.

It is beside the point as far as I am concerned. Yield results are often controversial, not everyone will agree when two parties do business together or friends do business.
But this stink on the forum, which has caused problems. I am determined to make sure it goes away, one way or another, right or wrong, I will do what I think is best to get rid of this smell if it continues.

Enough of this nonsense.


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## Anonymous (May 23, 2014)

Necromancer, I thought you refined yourself?


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## Geo (May 23, 2014)

I've been on the other side of this and it's hard to explain to someone that what they have is all that there was. It's as simple as this, since you know what the starting material was and you know what you have back, use that as a basis of your next ventures. It's yield data in itself and to some worth more than the gold return. Do not try and base expected yields on other peoples work because no two refiners will recover the exact same weight from the exact same material unless they were set up the exact same way and even then the refiner themselves will alter the outcomes. I wouldnt be surprised if the same refiner doing different batches of the exact same material still came up with different yields.


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## srlaulis (May 23, 2014)

butcher said:


> Yield results are often controversial. Generally it's because the individual has unreasonable expectations, and may not willing to listen to reason.
> 
> After a brief email to this other party.
> Which at this point I have no reason to believe is nothing more than an honest person, and refiner, and someone who tried to be a friend to help someone out, is being falsely accused of wrong doing, and having a good name drug through the mud with this innuendo.
> ...




Lets break out the Febreze and Arm&Hammer! :lol:


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## yar (May 23, 2014)

Maybe i missed something but the compaint is about the purity not the yield. I believe he was told that the purity was to be at least 22k not what was returned.


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## necromancer (May 23, 2014)

yar said:


> Maybe i missed something but the complaint is about the purity not the yield. I believe he was told that the purity was to be at least 22k not what was returned.



thank you for seeing this correctly.

i have been warned my the mod's over this even though some of the mod's themselves have told the entire open forum that 

"if there is a problem to come out and say it in the open" (which i have done)

twice i have been told that i would be banned, but i will be banned for listening to the mod's suggestion ?!?

i see nothing that i have done to be in the wrong, i paid someone to recover gold from my escrap because i was told i will get 22k to 23k fine gold back

it seems that this was not the case and once again i am forced to be in a situation where my privilege of being a member here may be revoked
this is a open & honest complaint. 

if the mods wish to ban me so be it, ban my IP, ban my MAC address, pull the batteries out of my laptop. if this is the way this forum works then that is wrong 100% wrong.


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## Aristo (May 23, 2014)

This thread is a great example of how NOT to resolve a problem.
It started off with veiled suspicions and whining. Forum members opinions were sought without knowing the purpose, even though the OP had a plan. I view this as attempted deception.
Finally the matter became finger pointing and outright blaming of another forum member without appropriate evidence. Fortunately, the forum member who is being blamed have had the good sense to be quiet and respectful.
In a previous thread, it was advised that if there is a problem between forum members, just post the facts in a clear and concise manner. The inappropriate use of veiled derogatory remarks and innuendo is quite unsettling to say the least.
I am in agreement with Butcher; something smells very fishy and based on the format and presentation of the issue, I am beginning to look at the wind direction. How's that for innuendo?
To those involved, I say : Guys, get on the phone, talk this over and clean this mess up before it gets out of hand. Govern yourselves appropriately.
This forum has a far more important purpose.


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## necromancer (May 23, 2014)

spaceships said:


> Necromancer, I thought you refined yourself?



no i do not, i dabbled a small bit & that is all, finding somewhere to work on recovery is very tough i have to sneak outdoors at 1am with my portable camping stove & nitric, and find a not to windy park. not very fun

i have started over the last few days to recover my scraps on my own, i have learned enough about ceramic cpu and plated pins to do that on my own

the MLCC were something i could do in a bucked & hide in my shed


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## necromancer (May 23, 2014)

Aristo said:


> This thread is a great example to of how NOT to resolve a problem.
> It started off with veiled suspicions and whining. Forum members opinions were sought without knowing the purpose, even though the OP had a plan. I view this as attempted deception.
> Finally the matter became finger pointing and outright blaming of another forum member without appropriate evidence. Fortunately, the forum member who is being blamed have had the good sense to be quiet and respectful.
> In a previous thread, it was advised that if there is a problem between forum members, just post the facts in a clear and concise manner. The inappropriate use of veiled derogatory remarks and innuendo is quite unsettling to say the least.
> ...




i wish it was that simple. if it was "there would be no after smell"

i will just keep my mouth shut, and read from now on, no matter what happens


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## Aristo (May 23, 2014)

There are numerous issues between refiners and their clients in the past and it will continue to be so well into the future. I am sure yours is not unique to the point of being unresolvable.
Forum members can only draw inferences and make suggestions based on what was presented and how it was presented.
I can assure you that keeping your mouth shut is not a solution to the matter. You might be surprised at the results of clear and effective communication.
Keeping your mouth shut will likely cause you silent grief, possible loss of revenue and will have placed a black mark on the other contestant in the matter.
Make the effort to clean things up and make things right with the other guy. You are both valued contributors and appear to be intelligent enough to come to a common understanding in the matter. Also, there are resourceful members on the forum whom I am sure will not hesitate to help.


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## Geo (May 23, 2014)

There are many on the forum that would trust Mike with their gold and I'm one of them. If it were convenient enough, I would send him some of my stuff to work with but shipping prohibits that from happening. If it's the quality that's the issue, send it back so he can refine it again.


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## butcher (May 24, 2014)

I have edited the posts above, Edited the link pointing to a members name:
I see no facts that support such an accusation; I do see where readers have been lead to believe something without knowing the all of the facts, of what all has transpired.


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## FujiGoldOne (May 24, 2014)

And by ediing that you has 100% proven that yu dont use your own rules : 
Harold_V wrote:
Absolutely correct. If anyone on this board is shafted by another reader, make damned sure you report what happened, and do it publicly. In doing so, do NOT lead the readers. Don't make any recommendations----simply state what transpired, leaving out your opinions. State only the facts, as you know them, and how you got the short end of the stick. No one is culpable when the truth I spoken. 

Harold

GET IT???


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## Anonymous (May 24, 2014)

Before this gets out of hand might I inject some more reason into this please.

Harold's post was based around publicly reporting somebody who had ripped off another member. The key here is "publicly." This thread wasn't doing this, as it was far from open from the outset. It also didn't state facts, and there was opinion included as the thread evolved to the point where it became apparent that it was in fact a complaint.

Respectfully I think it could have been handled better Dave. That's my straight shooting Brit language mate and I know you'll take it as it was intended. i.e. Straight to the point and honest, without any games.

Regards

Jon


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## Geo (May 24, 2014)

While this forum is not a government, it does have a governing body. When accusations are brought against a member whether it's a new member or one of the original few, it's up to them to keep the peace and it's not an enviable task. Sometimes even people who think that they are in the right are found to be at fault. I'm not saying that it's the case here but it does happen. After we as members have said our piece, it's up to the moderators to decide who's in the wrong. I for one am very proud to be in a forum that will not stand by and let one member gain an unfair advantage over another. necromancer, you had a similar thing happen awhile back and it didn't seem to turn out so well in your favor and that makes people doubt some of the claims you have made. I wasn't there and have no inside knowledge of the deal that went on but I can tell you that Mike's reputation as a refiner and as an honest person is on the line here. You should consider how this will reflect on you if it's found that you are making unfounded claims against him. Do keep in mind that the mods here are under no legal restraints like a court and when you accuse someone of something like this, you really need some hard proof because you are literally trying to destroy a mans reputation. This forum is many things to many people. It's a place of learning and coming together. It's like a town square where everybody knows everybody. It has a market for buying and selling and promoting oneself and their abilities. I seriously doubt that Mike would have tried to mislead you on purpose. What would he have to gain from it? The chance to be called a fraud? This forum has helped people become successful through teaching and contact with like minded people. I can't see Mike or anyone else that is serious about what they do jeopardizing their standing like this. 

Most refiners require a minimum amount before they will do a toll refine. If they were charging 25%, the total outcome would have to be 4 OZT for the refiner to make an ounce. How can a refiner make profit when 25% of the total is only a few grams? Been there and done that and usually I was trying to help out a member who couldn't do it for themselves. 

No good deed goes unpunished.


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## butcher (May 24, 2014)

FujiGoldOne,

First I do not see where I have broken any forum rule.

I do not know all of the facts involved here, but I have heard more of them than the members on the forum have heard, at least I have had a chance to hear some from both parties, I cannot make a judgement in this matter, I am no judge, and I will not be one in this case.

But what I can do is try to see that this forum runs smoothly, and it is not used to smear a reputation with unfounded facts and innuendo, or that the forum is used as a weapon against other members for some personal reason, or any reason which cannot be founded in fact and truth.

We have not heard all of the facts, or the whole truth in this matter.
We may, or may not hear, or know it all.

When I carefully read the general warning so well written by Harold, and look at the way this case has been presented, I see where this warning was not followed, in fact the reason this warning was written I believe stemmed from this very case, and the way it was being presented.

With attacks and innuendo, not presenting all of the facts, or truths.

We have not been provided with all of the information needed, to be able to judge one party or the other, we have not been provided with all of the information needed to smear a mans reputation, and have his name posted as being accused as being a thief or liar, or harm his reputation with unfounded facts.

There are two people, former friends, who have done business together before, who may know better, what may be going on here, they can settle this disagreement between themselves if they choose to.

But they will not use the forum as a tool against the other.


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## necromancer (Jun 2, 2014)

seeing that the road to hell is paved with good intention.

#1 - i do apoligize to "everyone" for seeming to have missleeding information or intentions. my words are put in black & white text, not the spoken word
i am a 2 finger typer, my mind will not let me remember where all the keys lay without looking at them derectly. this also goes for written instruction.
vocal or visiual instruction will be remembered without fail

#2 - i have re-refined this button, (20.09g)

melted and poured into a stainless steel dish of water
boiled little gold balls & flakes in 25% water / 75% nitric
decanted, washed in water X3 & incerated.
washed in hcl X3, decanted, washed in water X3
remelted with borax
removed button & placed in hot delute sulfuric (1 part sulfuric, 10 parts water) till borax glass was removed
weighed again 17.96g, 2.13g lighter then original or about 10%

i will re-refine the other 10g button & the other 31.1g button

sorry no pictures as my camera on my phone is not too good. i took this button out today & sold it for $575.00 CAD
this will make for a nice gift & dinner for my wifes birthday.


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