# 17 kilos of bars



## arthur kierski (Apr 28, 2008)

i have 17kilos in bars which contains:2%rh----0.33%au----022%pt------- 
0.16%pd-----copper and silver---it is a very hard alloy and i am having tremendous dificulties to drill holes in it to take the drillings and begining to extract the precious metals----
please ,any sugestions?


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## Palladium (Apr 28, 2008)

You need to melt it and make fine shot or cornflakes so that it can dissolve easier. 17 kilo bar. :shock: You will never dissolve that.


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## Noxx (Apr 28, 2008)

Refine it yourself 

My suggestion would be to dissolve everything in Nitric acid (except gold of course) then send me a bar 

More seriously, it would be even better if you could get cheap nitric acid, it would cut refining costs. You can make your own.

No need to drill holes. You could make shots of your bars to facilitate dissolution.

If you have any more questions, do not hesitate to ask. I made an easy calculation and I know that your have 170k$ worth of gold sleeping in your bars...


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## Palladium (Apr 28, 2008)

Is that Cat material :?:


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## Noxx (Apr 28, 2008)

Palladium said:


> :shock: You will never dissolve that.



You would be surprised to see what nitric acid with H2O2 can do


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## Palladium (Apr 28, 2008)

Noxx said:


> Palladium said:
> 
> 
> > :shock: You will never dissolve that.
> ...



I think a 37.5 lb bar would be quiet an experience.


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## Noxx (Apr 28, 2008)

I do this every morning while drinking a cup of coffee


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## arthur kierski (Apr 28, 2008)

noxx and palladium ---thanks for the quick replies-----
let me explain better----this bars are about i kilo each---they came from various thingsld telephone centrals---jewelery----and things i dont know---here in brazil i have no problems yet with nitric acid----i will try with nitric and with nitric +h2o2-----the calculation i made is diferrent from noxx---340grams of rh=10.93ounces=99.736dollars
56.1grams of gold=1.8ouncs=1600dollars---
34grams platinum=1858dollars---
27grams palladium=390dollars
total==103.585 dollars----is this right?


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## Noxx (Apr 28, 2008)

Oops you're right, I confused the 0,33% with 33% lol

0,33%x18 000g. = 59,4 grams = 1,91 oz = 1700$


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## Palladium (Apr 28, 2008)

I see it's the english barrier. :lol: 

Nitric would remove the base metals. 
If you have a bar and don't know exactly what is in it then it would be best to remove the base metals first.

But if you have palladium it will dissolve into the nitric with the rest of the metals i think. What about HCL to remove the base metals and then you have a cleaner material to start refining with ?


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## Noxx (Apr 28, 2008)

Palladium said:


> I see it's the english barrier. :lol:



It's more the fatigue barrier...


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## Palladium (Apr 28, 2008)

Noxx said:


> Palladium said:
> 
> 
> > I see it's the english barrier. :lol:
> ...



Oh if you only knew. I've been on a dead run to finish my report and just can't seem to get all this stuff out of my head. It was easier to get it in than get it out. I think i've had maybe 8 hours sleep in 3 days.

I'm pulling a Froggy. Hey a new phrase.
Anybody ever be munsoned.


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## eagle2 (Apr 29, 2008)

Arthur, I would use the Nitric acid process first and let the Pd dissolve with the base metals. Then you could next process out the Pd without having to consider handling the other PGM`s at the same time. 

Al


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## arthur kierski (Apr 29, 2008)

to all; i will process with nitric acid +h2o2----i will start with a kilo bar and
with some drillings that i managed with great dificultie to get(around 100grams)-----any sugestion of the proportion of nitric acid :water:h2o2(100volumes)--------------------------------------------------------------------
by the way any body heard of nitric acid+alcohol----it is a violent reaction
and gave once i used very good results but a sickening smell---


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## eagle2 (Apr 29, 2008)

Arthur, DO NOT use alcohol!!! 

There are no useful compounds from that. You may get poisons or something explosive. Thats been discussed here before on other threads. 

I`m also not sure if adding H2O2 is any benefit either.

I would first try 3 parts concentrated Nitric to 1 part distilled water.

Al


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## Anonymous (Apr 29, 2008)

I think the H2O2 is to cut down on the amount of nitric needed by converting some of the nitrous gases to nitric acid in the original solution.


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## Noxx (Apr 29, 2008)

Exactly James.


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## Palladium (Apr 29, 2008)

Their is a patent on it around here somewhere.


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## Lou (Apr 29, 2008)

He needs to melt it and make it into shot. Then part with nitric, add HCl and remove nitric acid and then drop the Pd.


At these concentrations though, if your bar is primarily copper, this may be a good candidate for electrolytic recovery (go after the sludges).


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## Irons (Apr 30, 2008)

Since these bars are mostly Copper, wouldn't it be easier to use an electrolytic cell?


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## arthur kierski (Apr 30, 2008)

Iron , it might be better with eletrolytic cell but i have never worked with this cells and do not have the faintest idea of how to do it-------
someone told me that there are drills to make holes (fillings) in these bars---i am going to try to find it.
thank you ----your ideas are always welcome
have to run a little while rh is today 9150dolars an ounce


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## eagle2 (May 1, 2008)

I found this reference by Googleing, Nitric acid plus Hydrogen peroxide.

H2O2 is used in process scrubbers to eliminate NOx gases from the discharge stream. It works to re-produce the gases to Nitric acid. Certain ratios of the various NOx gases are not effectively treated this way.

It can be used to reduce or eliminate the production of NOx gases from hot Nitric acid when we are dissolving base metals. (I think some Chromic compounds are also useful this way too). Nowhere, did I find anything referencing H2O2, to be of more use in combination with Nitric for dissolving difficult alloys than Nitric acid alone. 

Here is one reference I found: 

www.eng-tips.com Boiling nitric Acid. Thread 124-190648. Go about half way down to 29 June 07.


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## Palladium (May 1, 2008)

Found it. :wink: 

:arrow:


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## arthur kierski (May 1, 2008)

thanks palladium for the information (metal dissolution)----will let you informed of the process dissolving of 17kilos bars


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## eagle2 (May 1, 2008)

Thanks Palladium, that`s right on. 

I noted in the text that Iron, Copper, Lead hasten the decomposition of H2O2 and the addition of a stabilizer is recommended

Al


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## Lino1406 (May 2, 2008)

Will dissolve all, except, perhaps, Rh


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## Lino1406 (May 2, 2008)

and gold.


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## eagle2 (May 2, 2008)

Nitric acid and/or H2O2 will NOT dissolve any PM except Palladium.


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## arthur kierski (May 3, 2008)

dear sirs:i took 200grams solid piece(part of a bar that i managed to break) and put in a solution of 3:1 nitric acid -distiled water-it gave a nice reaction and deep green collor to the solution(copper solution) --added more nitric until no more reaction---the bar became 156grams.
in this solution i added salt and no agcl was formed--then did the pd test and no pd salt-------------------------------------------------------------------
took the 156grams left and made an ar solution and heated for an hour--
it became 129grams and the solution was reddish and some powder in the becker--filtrated took out the 129 grams and to the powder added nh4oh ---it did not dissolve(again no agcl) --perhaps pbcl (white +grey(perhaps rh)----the redish liquid lost its collor and became yellowish-brown----------------------------------------------------------------------------------i repeated with the129grams with ar-----the same things happened and the bar became 95grams of a black metalic piece--then after looking 
for pms in the 2ars(none) i went home very frustrated-------------------
sirs--now i have a 95grams and hoping that the pms is embedded in it!!---waiting for comments and sugestions of what to do with the 95grams left?note:this 200grams is part of the 17kilos---thanks in advance

Arthur kierski


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## eagle2 (May 3, 2008)

Arthur, first, in the deep green solution, that was the result of the Nitric treatment, how did you test for Pd?? 

Second after the AR treatment in the reddish and yellow brown liquids you said you looked for PM`s and found none. How did you look for them?? Those colors indicate possible Pd, Pt, and Au (Gold) and maybe any of the other PGM`s. 

Third the insoluble 95 gms could still be a refractive Pt form (or the other PGM`s, except Pd) or silica or other insoluble compounds.

I`m not an expert on all the PGM`s It takes a thorough knowledge of all the procedures and all the chemistry. 

If you can get Sodium or Potassium Borohydride (SBH4) you can separate all the PGM`s (separate gold first) from the second liquid. 

Also you have to carefully watch the PH of all the solutions and procedures. In each attempt of separating the various PGM`s you have to prepare the solution for the special separation you are after.

With 200gms starting material, you are looking only for a very few grams of PM`s.

Irons suggestion of an electrolytic cell would greatly concentrate your PM`s!!

Al


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## Lino1406 (May 3, 2008)

With oxidizing materials, you wouldn't
want to know the result


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## arthur kierski (May 3, 2008)

to lino1406:never understand your replies----could you be more specific and tutorial---thanks


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## Lino1406 (May 3, 2008)

is strong reducer. you woudn't want
to react it with oxidizer like HNO3
2.What is the grade of your nitric - is it
chemicaly pure (or contains Chloride)?
3.You gave an analysis that doesn't
include Pb so wherefrom is Pb powder coming?
4.Maybe there is also iron in your stuff? Nickel?
Answers to that can help.


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## Anonymous (May 3, 2008)

what is a strong reducer? 
No one would put nitric in a copper cell.


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## Irons (May 3, 2008)

james122964 said:


> what is a strong reducer?
> No one would put nitric in a copper cell.



Strong reducing agent.


Better have your goggles on and be close to an emergency shower.


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## Anonymous (May 3, 2008)

Irons, What?


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## arthur kierski (May 3, 2008)

no iron ---and what is the difference if there is ni and pb in the material
hno3 would s0lubilize pb and the ar would solubilize the ni----------


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## Irons (May 3, 2008)

james122964 said:


> Irons, What?



Mixing Sodium Borohydride, a strong reducing agent, with Nitric Acid, a strong oxidizer can produce a violent reaction.


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## eagle2 (May 3, 2008)

Yes, When I suggested using SBH4, its only in very slightly acid HCL or neutral solutions. You can drop all the PGM`s and then work on separating them. 

Al


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## Lino1406 (May 3, 2008)

I see your point now.
What I would try next
is to heat for some hours
with H2SO4 + NaCl 15%,
assuming some Rh is there


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## Anonymous (May 4, 2008)

I missed the sodium hyrdoboride part, sorry.


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