# What should I charge for my services?



## goldenchild (Jun 17, 2010)

There is a long back story to this and I will share it with you guys if you like but heres the deal. A jeweler that I do business with gave me 380 grams of 14k solid gold last night to "try me out". He knows I have the skills to get the job done(refine) but I think he is trying to get a feel for my turn around time. I believe its in the hopes to develop a working relationship. 

I bet you guys know where I'm going with this but... what are you guys that do this type of work or have your own business charge for your services? I believe LazerSteve charges 10% of the yeild's value(I would still like to hear from you on this one Steve  ). I know Harold and GSP can help me out on this one too. Those are the guys that I know of off the top of my head but anyone else that can help PLEEEEASE chime in. I already have an idea of what I want to charge but just wanted to bounce it off you guys to see if its justified. 

Thanks to all in advance!


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## Harold_V (Jun 18, 2010)

I charged my customers 10% for refining small lots---anything under 5 ounces. I had a sliding scale on anything over that, although I didn't go under 8%. It was also uncommon for a single customer to have more than ten ounces. (Do consider that gold was well under $800 when I refined, with only one exception). 

The fee may seem unreasonable, but you earn the money. There are no hidden fees, and the customer receives that which is rightfully theirs. Should they elect to ship to a large refinery, your 10% fee suddenly looks very reasonable. 

You should be able to turn that amount of gold in a day---but you must be able to use heat to process. Running cold can take much longer. 

Harold


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## goldenchild (Jun 18, 2010)

Harold... your advice never dissapoints  I too was thinking of charging 10%. And from what you wrote I believe you are saying that anything over 5 ounces you would charge less but never went under 8%. That actually sounds very good. 

As far as the amount that would be supplied, the person I'm dealing with can easily supply me with way more than 5 ounces per transaction. He owns a jewelry store where he gets alot of business. The 380 grams is a drop in the bucket. 

He gave me the gold on Wed night and I will have it done by tomorrow(Sat 19). This is only because I'm juggling between this and my day job and Ive only had 2 to 3 hours a night to work on the lot. So I know I can do 5 ounces in a day. As a matter of fact this lot should yeild a little over 7 ounces 8) And...

Ok you dragged it out of me Harold :lol: Let me tell you guys the back story. The first time I dealt with the jeweler was to sell the 5 ingots that I have on display in the gallery under "more buttons please". He said I was only the second person in the area that has ever brought in refined gold and the first person was unsuccessful in acheiving 24k purity. We had a long talk about how I did it and parted. He had my gold assayed at a major refinery in Manhattan which his family owns (more on this in a sec) and he called me to tell me they were impressed I was able to acheive the purity that I did at home. 

The second visit was to settle on these bars. Again we had a good long talk and I also spoke with his master jeweler. The master jeweler was super impressed with the knowledge of jewelry and refining I had. He saw my rings and couldnt get over that I did about 80% of the work to make them. The long and short of this visit was that the owner offered me a job! He wanted me to come in on Saturdays for the holidays and do some work. His master jeweler wants to teach me how to do repairs and sizings(typical jewelry shop stuff). This jewelry shop just happens to have a very sophisticated lazer welder too 8) 

Ok but it doesnt end there. It continues to escalate. The third visit was to give him one more ounce that I refined before I'm out of comission for a few weeks due to moving. Again assay and phone call. This time hes excited to tell me that my ingot assayed at .99875. I too was very surprised considering that I had a little mishap when producing this ingot that... lets just say could introduce some impurities. It was only once refined too. I have no doubt in my mind now that I can produce quad nines.

When I went to settle on the ingot is when he asked if I wanted to refine the 380 grams. Again I think he wants to test my turn around time. I told him I could have it done Sat. latest Sun and we parted ways. At this point some of you may be thinking why does he want me to refine his stuff if his family owns a large scale refinery. I asked the question too. He said its hard dealing with family sometimes and that he thinks the partners of the refinery arent being 100% honest with assays and payouts on his gold. He wants to breakoff on his own.

Enter the dream... In our last few conversations we have been throwing around the idea of me coming in a few days a week to refine on premis. We also talked about eventually breaking out to a larger operation at one of the many properties he owns. I got a phone call from him last night and he said he spoke with his uncle about setting up shop in one of the properties. They would like to start out producing 200 ounces a week with their own supply and expanding out eventually. I am meeting with him tomorrow as he wants to go over some of the things I think I'll need for that volume. I will probably need your guys' help on this for some of the not so obvious things.

Anyway it looks like this is getting serious and I really hope it comes to fruition.


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## HAuCl4 (Jun 18, 2010)

Wow. Very nice for you!. Be careful on your negotiations...and write everything down with a notary!.

Once they know what to do, and get all the knowledge/procedures/what and how from you...well... you are not needed anymore. It happened to me once...costed me thousands and much grief.

In another post made today, I mentioned "suspicions", etc, etc. when more than 1 person is involved. hehe. This guy doesn't trust his own family!. Gold brings out the best and worst in people!. :lol:

The only guy that has control is the guy that brings in or sources the material...The rest are more or less...expendable or can be gotten cheaply. Maybe tough thing to say, but inline with the truth.


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## Noxx (Jun 18, 2010)

8% is great for what you'll be able to get.

Good luck in your venture!


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## qst42know (Jun 18, 2010)

I don't want to rain on your good news however I would hate to think he just wants schooled on the process. I would think if he is willing to cut out his family, how valuable are you once he knows what you know. 

I would believe a place of business of your own where you might pursue other clients so that all your eggs aren't in his basket would be a wise investment.

I don't like to think the worst of people but like they say business is business. Try to keep your independence or else some day he may come and put his hand on your shoulder and say "sorry kid we're going to have to let you go".

Do you want to be the boss or the help?

Just the suspicious in me. :mrgreen:


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jun 18, 2010)

If you are under his roof you are under his rules.

This give him the power to tell you when to come to work, what hours you work, what grade of chemicals you will be using, what equipment you will be useing. And you won't have access to the final goods so how can you protect them from slippery hands.

If you were working for him under this economy do you think you would still have a job?

You best friend in the world will become your worst enemy when you go in buisness together and things get tough.

If you go with this guy are you not tradeing one job for another. Is not your purpose your freedom to make the decisions and live with the results.

Just my .02. IMHO


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## goldenchild (Jun 18, 2010)

qst42know there will be no "sorry kid we're going to have to let you go". Hes only a year older than me :mrgreen: But seriously guys I would never put myself in that predicament. Since I would be one of the founding members there would have to be some type of ownership deal if this venture really took off. You know like a percentage of the business. This way even if I wasnt needed to do the labor or I decided I didnt want to do the labor anymore I would still recieve my just dues. This is all done carefully through negotiations, lawyers, documentation, and notaries as HAuCl4 suggested. You surely dont go into these things half a$$ed. And Barren Realms 007, this is understood by both him and I that this isnt a full time deal and just a part time gig for now. I have a government job that is way too good to just drop. I may even be too expensive for him to hire full time 8) Thank you for your advice and concerns but I'm a pretty smart guy so you need not worry about me.


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## qst42know (Jun 19, 2010)

All the pessimism aside I sincerely hope it works out to be a great business opportunity for you.

Congratulations.

Chris


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jun 19, 2010)

My hope is that you achieve success in your venture with no hickups during the process of setting this up.


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## goldenchild (Jun 19, 2010)

Thanks Chris and Barren. Maybe you guys can help me with something or anyone else who would like to chime in for that matter. We are deciding on an induction furnace to use for the final melt. I think we will be going with one that can melt at least 100 ounces. What is a good manufacturer/model for this task. I need a comparison on pros and cons and price ranges. 

Thanks


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## Harold_V (Jun 20, 2010)

goldenchild said:


> We are deciding on an induction furnace to use for the final melt.


Do your homework well before investing. Frequency is critical, directly related to the size of the heat, and the size of the charge introduced. Precipitated gold (powder) will require higher frequency than chunks of gold. Also, if you see any fluxing in your future, insure that you buy a crucible type, not one that is lined with refractory, intended for direct melting. The expected life of the lining will be cut drastically short using flux. You don't want the coil to be exposed to the charge. 

Sorry, can't recommend a brand as I am too limited in knowledge. 

Harold


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## nickvc (Jun 20, 2010)

I have been following this with interest and feel that while the charge for the one off refining job is fair I wouldnt use that figure in any projections for your possible future refinery. The world is awash with refineries at present all offering high percentage returns from 95% to 99% so be aware that your returns have to be in line with your competitors,I believe ARA are one of the most trusted here and seem to be straight forward in their dealings so check their returns out.The high gold price means that its fairly easy to make money refining even on high percentage returns and the bonus metals such as silver palladium and platinum really make the difference if you can recover them all.Most of your potential business will be from dealers bringing live scrap or pre melted bars so a melt and assay service makes sense and allows mass recovery rather than individual jobs cutting costs and time,its as easy to refine 5kilos as 5 ounces and the profit is all about sheer volume, this can work but do your homework and look for ways to operate with large volumes and fast recovery and not forgetting for a way to sell your finished product on and try to arrange a way to fix your metals at the same time as you buy as many customers will just want money not gold so you need to be able to secure your profit and not risk the market.I wish you luck and look forward to hearing the progress your making.


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## goldenchild (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks Harold and nickvc. I think we are starting to mix the two issues on this topic though. It started out as what I should charge for my refining services for this jeweler and then ended up being about our refining busisness venture. One has nothing to do with the other. 

I have decided to go with the advice of Harold and use 10% of the yeilds value for anything 5 ounces and under and a sliding scale not to go under 8% for anything higher. This makes very much sense to me unless someone else has another suggestion.

As far as the refinery goes. It is still in its infancy. At this point a pipedream if you will. Not a penny has been spent and ideas are just being thrown around for now. I will be depending on the expertise of the members of this forum to guide me through some of the processes in starting up this venture.


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## goldenchild (Jun 23, 2010)

For anyone that is following this maybe you can help me with this one. I looked under Equipment ---> Systems / Tools and found a few topics about those automatic furnaces you can get on ebay. People's opinions seemed to be based on the amount of volume that needed to be processed and speed.

The jeweler and I are in talks of getting a cyle going where I come in to pick up x amount of grams of gold (predominantly 14k) and drop off x amount of ozs of 24k. I would like to start off outputting 10 troy ounces of 24k a week. Here is my math. And yes I know this is not exact because the scrap is most likely not plum.

311.03 grams of 24k is 10 troy ounces (31.1034 * 10)
533.5 grams of 14k gold yeilds 10 troy ounces of 24k (533.5 / .583)
222.47 grams of the 533.5 grams of 14k gold is base metal (533.5 * .417)
710.62 grams of silver is needed to make the 533.5 grams of 14k 6k
((311.03 * 4) - 311.03) - 222.47

This is a total of 1244.12 grams of 14k gold and silver (2.74 pounds). So do you guys think that this would be a good investment in my case? 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Automatic-Furnace-Melting-2-Kilo-Silver-Gold-Pour-Bar-/310226283582?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483aed6c3e

I want something that I can put everything in at once and cornflake it for nitric dissolution keeping one crucible for inquarting and the other for the final melt. I cant imagine myself melting nearly three pounds of material with a torch. Also does anyone know if this can handle 10oz of pure gold powder well?

Thanks all

BTW I looked on riogrande.com and they dont have a 2kilo furnace and I dont think I need a 3 kilo.


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## HAuCl4 (Jun 23, 2010)

goldenchild said:


> For anyone that is following this maybe you can help me with this one. I looked under Equipment ---> Systems / Tools and found a few topics about those automatic furnaces you can get on ebay. People's opinions seemed to be based on the amount of volume that needed to be processed and speed.
> 
> The jeweler and I are in talks of getting a cyle going where I come in to pick up x amount of grams of gold (predominantly 14k) and drop off x amount of ozs of 24k. I would like to start off outputting 10 troy ounces of 24k a week. Here is my math. And yes I know this is not exact because the scrap is most likely not plum.
> 
> ...



Two words: Gas Fired.

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Gas-Fired-Crucible-Furnace/dp/1878087088


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## qst42know (Jun 23, 2010)

Those electric furnaces were discussed, those that owned them didn't care for them. I don't know where they are today but I'm sure you will hear from them soon.


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## goldenchild (Jun 23, 2010)

qst42know said:


> Those electric furnaces were discussed, those that owned them didn't care for them. I don't know where they are today but I'm sure you will hear from them soon.



Yes some of the people that owned them didnt like them because of how long it took to melt. Others said it worked well. I would still like to know the pros and cons but main thing is if it can get the job that I described done. I dont need to have the 10oz done in a day or two so I should say right now that speed is not an issue.


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## lazersteve (Jun 24, 2010)

Why not divide and conquer the 10 oz in 2 or 3 ounce batches, at least for the inquarting and cornflake stages? It's not that big of a deal to inquart a few ounces at a time and cornflake each one after another. 

Once everything is cornflaked process with nitric as usual.

Steve


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## Harold_V (Jun 24, 2010)

goldenchild said:


> So do you guys think that this would be a good investment in my case?


It wouldn't be a good investment if it was given to you free of charge. I owned a similar furnace. It sat on the shelf, unused once I realized how lousy it was. 
If you'd like a second opinion, might pay to ask GSP what he thinks. 




> I cant imagine myself melting nearly three pounds of material with a torch.


I have no idea why. The only time I used a furnace for melting was when I received a huge volume of material, or the material required heavy fluxing. You can torch melt, stir and pour ten ounces in less than two minutes. You can't get a furnace up to melting temperature in less than about ten minutes. Electric is even slower. The only exception to this would be if you had an induction furnace at your disposal. Otherwise, you'll come to realize that there is no substitute for a torch, assuming you size it correctly. 

The largest lot of pure I ever melted at one time was 400 ounces---every bit of it with a torch. I wouldn't have done anything differently-----unless I could have employed an induction furnace. 

If you insist that you need a furnace, not a torch, and it's not going to be an induction type, forget electric furnaces. Think gas fired, be it propane or natural gas. 

Harold


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## HAuCl4 (Jun 24, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> goldenchild said:
> 
> 
> > So do you guys think that this would be a good investment in my case?
> ...



Wow!. 400 Oz with a torch!. Was it a flame thrower?. :shock: 

Can you describe how it went?. I'm not mocking but genuinely interested.


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## goldenchild (Jun 24, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> Why not divide and conquer the 10 oz in 2 or 3 ounce batches, at least for the inquarting and cornflake stages?
> 
> Steve



If I decide to go with a torch this is definately how I would do it.



Harold_V said:


> I have no idea why. The only time I used a furnace for melting was when I received a huge volume of material, or the material required heavy fluxing. You can torch melt, stir and pour ten ounces in less than two minutes. You can't get a furnace up to melting temperature in less than about ten minutes. Electric is even slower. The only exception to this would be if you had an induction furnace at your disposal. Otherwise, you'll come to realize that there is no substitute for a torch, assuming you size it correctly.
> Harold



As I mentioned in my earlier post speed is not an issue. I could even live with it taking 20 minutes for the furnace to get up to melting temp. The main thing is the furnace has the power to melt what I need melted. Another thing I'm thinking of is the fuel tanks needed for my torch. Not so much cost but availability. In my area there arent many places that I know of where you can readily get acetylene and oxygen tanks. Only the tiny ones like at home depot or lowes. I would hate to have to meet a deadline and not be able to finish the task because I couldnt get ahold of an oxygen tank.

Anyway... If I took Steve's advice in conjunction with Harold's do you guys think this would be a good setup? 2 of these (one for inquarting and one for final melt) 

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/ProductPage.aspx?assetname=704031&page=GRID&category%7ccategory_root%7c122=Casting+Equipment+and+Supplies&category%7ccat_4530%7c4532=Crucibles+and+Holders

and one of these

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xlb/R-100054748/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 24, 2010)

goldenchild,

The melting dish with handle that you linked to was the type I always used and preferred. I usually filed a shallow groove on the edge, with a small round file, to act as a pour spout. However, most people on the forum, including Harold, use the less expensive, thinner, bowl-shaped melting dishes. Steve sells these on his website. It is also the type used in his mini-furnace.

I agree with Harold about those "Handi-Melt" type, hand-held electric furnaces. They are very expensive crap. Both of us owned one, so we are talking from experience.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=handi+melt&terms=all&author=&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


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## goldenchild (Jun 24, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> goldenchild,
> 
> The melting dish with handle that you linked to was the type I always used and preferred. I usually filed a shallow groove on the edge, with a small round file, to act as a pour spout. However, most people on the forum, including Harold, use the less expensive, thinner, bowl-shaped melting dishes. Steve sells these on his website. It is also the type used in his mini-furnace.
> 
> ...



Yup I read all the threads that have to do with mini furnaces and thats why I wanted to ask you guys about how they might work in my situation. Its funny you said you would use a file to make a small groove in the crucible for pouring. That's exactly what I envisioned for those crucibles! I would think its very important to do so in order to get a nice steady stream. Especially when inquarting.

Ok so you guys have convinced me to go with a torch. Especially since its coming from the GRF trinity :mrgreen: So what do you guys think about that torch I listed? I like the fact that it comes with everything and is relitively inexpensive. I've also seen that you can buy different tips for it.


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## qst42know (Jun 24, 2010)

> Another thing I'm thinking of is the fuel tanks needed for my torch. Not so much cost but availability. In my area there arent many places that I know of where you can readily get acetylene and oxygen tanks. Only the tiny ones like at home depot or lowes. I would hate to have to meet a deadline and not be able to finish the task because I couldnt get ahold of an oxygen tank.



No welders or mechanics in your area?

Someone services the local weld and auto shops. They may even have a regular delivery route. Stop and ask your favorite mechanic where they get theirs.


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## qst42know (Jun 24, 2010)

Wait a minute, don't you have a jeweler partner in this venture. 

I don't believe they work out of cans from Lowe's. 

You may have to up size from what they might use but they'll know where to get tanks filled. :mrgreen:


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## goldenchild (Jun 24, 2010)

qst42know said:


> Wait a minute, don't you have a jeweler partner in this venture.
> 
> I don't believe they work out of cans from Lowe's.
> 
> You may have to up size from what they might use but they'll know where to get tanks filled. :mrgreen:



Of course :shock: I totally overlooked the fact. Thanks


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## chemist (Jun 24, 2010)

How do you melt powder with a torch and prevent the gas from blowing the powder all over the place? I seem to recall that Hoke mentioned wrapping the powder in tissues soaked in alcohol. Is this how it is done?


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## lazersteve (Jun 24, 2010)

chemist said:


> How do you melt powder with a torch and prevent the gas from blowing the powder all over the place? I seem to recall that Hoke mentioned wrapping the powder in tissues soaked in alcohol. Is this how it is done?



Check out my melting videos to see me do this first hand. 

The trick I use is to start with the torch a good distance from the gold. Having the dish properly coated with borax ('glazed') and hot when you add the powder will also help keep the gold in the dish.

Steve


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## goldenchild (Jun 24, 2010)

chemist said:


> How do you melt powder with a torch and prevent the gas from blowing the powder all over the place? I seem to recall that Hoke mentioned wrapping the powder in tissues soaked in alcohol. Is this how it is done?




I dont know if anyone else does this but... you can also dust the surface of your gold powder with some borax when its in the crucible. This will make the gold stick together a bit too.


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## Harold_V (Jun 25, 2010)

HAuCl4 said:


> Wow!. 400 Oz with a torch!. Was it a flame thrower?. :shock:
> 
> Can you describe how it went?. I'm not mocking but genuinely interested.


It went very well. It was my typical method of melting my twice refined gold, although generally in much smaller lots. What happened to me was that I was so busy processing the incoming lots of refining that I ran out of pure. This was immediately prior to selling the refining business, when I had trouble keeping up with demand. I had to process everything at my disposal at one time. I normally processed in roughly 75 oz. lots. 

Melting took a little time, but only because of the large volume. For the record, while I talk of 400 ounces, it may well have been 398 or 403. I do not recall the precise weight, but it was, roughly, 28 pounds of gold. I can say, honestly, this lot was the largest amount of gold I ever held in my hands. 

You might find it interesting that when I was refining, Vigor sold those nice white melting dishes in three sizes. The largest one is apparently no longer on the market, but it was the one I used for melting. It had the capacity of something like 300 dwt, so several ounces were melted per heat. Using a large Hoke torch (also no longer on the market), you could take the precipitated gold to molten in about a minute, even in large volumes. I melted the gold, then, using a gloved hand (asbestos glove), I poured the molten gold to a second dish, one that had an orifice that produced shot. A second torch played on the second dish, keeping it hot and the orifice open. No flux was used----just a skim coating on the dishes. When gold is pure, you don't need flux, for there's nothing for it to absorb. A coating on the dish allows for better movement of the gold, so my dishes were so prepared. After melting several hundred ounces, the only color that was discernable in the dish was a light purple/pink color, from colloidal gold. 

There has been talk of melting with a torch, and the concern about blowing the gold about with the flame. That's a non-issue if you have done your work well. Gold that has been refined to a high degree of purity and then washed well generally forms tight clumps, not prone to being blown about. As Steve suggested, you start with the flame a good distance from the charge. The surface almost immediately melts, forming a protective layer on top of the powder. Once you have some of the gold fluid, you can move in closer with the torch. It happens very quickly when you use an adequate heat source. 

Harold


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## goldenchild (Jun 25, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > There has been talk of melting with a torch, and the concern about blowing the gold about with the flame. That's a non-issue if you have done your work well. Gold that has been refined to a high degree of purity and then washed well generally forms tight clumps, not prone to being blown about. Harold



This is very true. When I processed the nearly 200 grams of gold seen in the Gallery under "more buttons please" the gold was in clumps after dropping it out of solution. In the first drop may I add.

After letting it settle overnight there was about 2 to 3 inches of gold accumulated at the bottom of the vessel. When I poured the liquid into the buchner funnel and got to the gold it started sliding down towards the vessels opening and there were clumps the size of golf balls! Then after it was vaccum filtered the gold clumped together even tighter. Gold just wants to be with its own kind whether it be in powder or molten form. 

So as Harold says, the better you get at getting the base metals out before dropping out the gold the easier it will be to handle the powder. You will start to get a very good sense of how clean the gold is just by looking at it. Above I mentioned that one of the assays the jewler had done on my ingot came out to be .99875. That ingot was melted after only 1 drop.


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## HAuCl4 (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks Harold. I had thought that you torch-melted the 400 OZ in one lump before pouring. You did it in steps. I get it now.


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## 4metals (Jun 26, 2010)

I can't help thinking that your profile says New York and if you mean New York City you're in for a rude awakening if you think you can charge 8 to 10%. I don't say that to be mean, just realistic. The "refiners" on the street tell you 2%, and steal another 2% from the average Joe selling scrap. So from a scammer in NYC you can get paid 96%. You intend to do things on the level for 8 to 10%, what is the guy giving you the material in it for? 
Guys in NYC play hard ball, you have to know your business, that means fire assay and processing larger lots. You have to be compliant with the DEC rules and that means air pollution and waste treatment. Just getting a permit for an exhaust will cost you $1500 per emission point. Then there's rent and security. 
I hope when you say New York it's Buffalo NY, then you have a chance.


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## goldenchild (Jun 26, 2010)

4metals said:


> I can't help thinking that your profile says New York and if you mean New York City you're in for a rude awakening if you think you can charge 8 to 10%. I don't say that to be mean, just realistic. The "refiners" on the street tell you 2%, and steal another 2% from the average Joe selling scrap. So from a scammer in NYC you can get paid 96%. You intend to do things on the level for 8 to 10%, what is the guy giving you the material in it for?
> Guys in NYC play hard ball, you have to know your business, that means fire assay and processing larger lots. You have to be compliant with the DEC rules and that means air pollution and waste treatment. Just getting a permit for an exhaust will cost you $1500 per emission point. Then there's rent and security.
> I hope when you say New York it's Buffalo NY, then you have a chance.



2%? That doesnt seem correct. By this logic you could bring in a troy ounce worth of material and they would only charge you $25(using the value of gold as I write this). That wouldnt even cover the man hours put into it. If the refinery bought the gold from you after refining it thats one thing. But to only charge 2% for the service seems unlikely. 

The jeweler I'm dealing with tells me its rare if not impossible to get more than 90% from refineries in NYC. I'm not in NYC but there is a refinery in my area that I contacted. The gentlemen I spoke with told me that I could bring in my gold and have a simple test done and get 80% cash on the spot or have it assayed and receive a check for 90%. 90% not including the assaying fee and any other little hidden fees they feel like throwing in. So I think the 10% sliding scale is a deal as Harold suggested. There are no hidden fees and the jeweler would be getting 100% of the yeild. So instead of rude awakening I'm thinking sweet dreams. But I guess time will tell.

Follow this link and put in 31.1034 grams in the 14k field. 
http://www.nygoldrefiners.com/payout.html

Use both the customer payout calculator and dealer payout calculator. Customer payout is what you would pay someone to buy their scrap and dealer calculator is what you can expect from the refinery... less the assay and hidden fees of course.

I see that you are from the northeast also. Are you in the NY area? Not saying your comment is true or un-true but just curious as to where your getting your info from. How recent are these figures?

Got my oxy-acetylene rig today


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## 4metals (Jun 27, 2010)

Please don't use the results of that gold buying calculator to justify setting up a business.


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## Harold_V (Jun 27, 2010)

4metals said:


> I can't help thinking that your profile says New York and if you mean New York City you're in for a rude awakening if you think you can charge 8 to 10%. I don't say that to be mean, just realistic. The "refiners" on the street tell you 2%, and steal another 2% from the average Joe selling scrap. So from a scammer in NYC you can get paid 96%. You intend to do things on the level for 8 to 10%, what is the guy giving you the material in it for?


My business model, which evolved from the input I received from my customers, worked exactly as I stated. Part of the benefits of using my services, even when the fee was 10%, was that the customer could buy gold from me for spot. When you even the playing field, it's no more unreasonable to charge 10% and treat the customer fairly than to imply you are charging only 2% and stealing the balance. 

I had one customer that was slow to warm up. He finally admitted to me that he had been using another refiner, one that was charging 5%. I had told him previously that there was no way I'd refine for such a small percentage---that I'd have to resort to stealing if I expected to make a profit. When he finally came around, he confessed, after having refined a few lots by each of us, that his return with my 10% fee was greater than the return form the other refiner, who was charging 5%. Doesn't take a great mind to see that he was being ripped off. 

Even in NY, you can charge 10%, but you have to get the customer to understand that there are benefits in paying what appears to be an unreasonable fee. The ability to buy quality gold for spot is one of them. Getting a fast return on metal when you're the bench man is another. I can't speak for the turn time of major refiners, but I used to provide three day service, which gradually became one week service, due to my busy schedule. However, when a given customer had a problem, like the one that had cast a number of rings using brittle gold, I had his gold refined and back to him in 24 hours. That's a part of the service that you can't, and won't get from a major refiner. 

My advice to anyone desiring to refine for the jewelry industry is to get well connected with small users----those that have a difficult time putting together a respectable batch to be refined. Their needs, to them, are every bit as important as the needs are to the customer that may turn twenty ounces per week. Seek them out, serve them well, and you have a customer for life. Abuse them by stealing, and you're lucky to see them a second time. 

Be on time, presenting outstanding quality and service and you can't miss. That has served me well for my entire life, not only in refining, but in running my commercial machine shop, which operated for 16 years, until I closed the doors to refine full time. 

By the way---the very notion that metal can be refined for 2%, when reflecting on the fees that refiners must pay, makes it perfectly obvious that the customer with a small amount is going to pay more----lots more. The 10% fee, which may appear to be unreasonable, isn't. Not at all. Were that not the case, there was no way I could have survived. I took work that used to go to some of the major refiners (Pease & Curren, for one), which was readily acknowledged by one of their field reps. I was well known to them, having cost them several of the customers in the Salt Lake City area.

Harold


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## HAuCl4 (Jun 27, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> My advice to anyone desiring to refine for the jewelry industry is to get well connected with small users----those that have a difficult time putting together a respectable batch to be refined. Their needs, to them, are every bit as important as the needs are to the customer that may turn twenty ounces per week. Seek them out, serve them well, and you have a customer for life. Abuse them by stealing, and you're lucky to see them a second time.
> 
> Be on time, presenting outstanding quality and service and you can't miss. That has served me well for my entire life, not only in refining, but in running my commercial machine shop, which operated for 16 years, until I closed the doors to refine full time.



Hear!. Hear!. I think this is key. You are providing a service of trust. There are going to be people that will never trust you no matter what you charge!. Others will seek the lowest cost and be scammed, etc, etc.

I overcame some of these problems, for a while, by swapping fine for scrap with a 10% haircut with jewelers with small batches. Melted and weighed the batch in front of them, in their crucible, took 2 samples and gave them 90% of fine gold (belonging to me) ON THE SPOT, and then took the scrap button to assay. They were free to assay too. We kept a tally of how many grams we were off and who owed material to whom. It took a LONG while to build trust. But my stash kept growing. This was after getting screwed in a refining business by partnering with the wrong people and relying on "their word"...

I still get calls...20 years later... :lol:

What did you pay for the torch and tanks goldenchild?. :?:

The entry costs are the lowest ever for the refining business, as equipment and knowledge of techniques have become widespread. One can make fire assays for $1, most equipment can be made of cheap cookware, chemicals are relatively cheap, etc, etc. One can refine in the bathtub or other small physical space with no costs, no permits, no-nothing, etc, etc... 

The biggest advantage is to source and keep the sources of material by running a very tight and honest relationship with the customers. IMHO. Or get your own mine!.


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## 4metals (Jun 27, 2010)

Harold 

Your points are excellent and may serve a small refiner well, the trick is to search out the small jeweler or scrap buyer who can appreciate the service. what I have been seeing is the industry is changing and it has happened in a few short years. Let me make an analogy which happens to be a true story.

I grew up in a relatively small town in the suburbs of NYC. I had an uncle who owned the only shoe store in town, he always had a new car and his store in the village thrived. By the time I entered college things had changed, he still was in business but a mall had opened up a few miles out of town and there were 3 or 4 shoe stores in the mall. His business suffered from competition, and he had to lower his prices. By the time I graduated college he had decided to bite the bullet and open shop in the mall. I remember him complaining how his competition was selling lesser quality foreign made shoes to stay competitive. He refused to do that and within 5 years he retired.

The same thing is happening in the refining industry today. There are more refiners today that don't refine anything than there are real refiners. They make their money on volume, if they keep up their volume, their refiner keeps the rate low and they have room to profit. So if you're in the melt and assay business and a guy walks in with a button containing 1 ounce of fine gold all you have to do is run it on your xrf and pay the guy 98% of spot. Even if your xrf is calibrated perfectly and you pay for all that is there, your profit margin is about 1 1/2 % plus the silver so your profit is a bit over twenty dollars. If you do this 20 times a day with off the street gold buyers you can make some money. In areas where gold buyers and refiners abound, this is what is happening. This is why I expressed concern when I saw that goldenchild was in New York. 

Fortunately for small honest refiners the need for profit at all cost has made many buyers dishonest. They calibrate their XRF low or charge extra fees. Possibly in areas where there is less gold buying and refining activity the margins for an old fashioned shoe store still exist. A place where good service and trust make the increased price worthwhile. But with the internet to advertise and shipping costs low, the reach of the big city refiners is extending and soon may be coming to a mall near you. The trick for them is to stay honest and live with modest margins.


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## Harold_V (Jun 27, 2010)

Note my emphasis on getting connected with small jewelry manufacturers. These people create a lot of wastes that are not easily sold for fair value. Filings, polishing wastes, and even carpets. With these materials, you are not in competition with the average buyer, and you fulfill a need. The merchant (refiner) that is well versed on handling this type of material has a distinct advantage, and the owner is generally far more interested in getting a return of useable metal than the money. 

Harold


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## 4metals (Jun 27, 2010)

Harold,

By adding polishing sweeps and carpets to the mix you've just upped the ante. We've gone from a single acid resistant hood to a setup with the ability to incinerate the material before processing. Small lots of polishing sweeps can be burned in a pan with an little lighter fuel to get it started but carpets get big. Now you're getting into a full blown facility to handle jewelers waste. 

I have seen your hood pictures posted where you did both acid work and burning but how did you burn carpeting?


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## goldenchild (Jun 27, 2010)

All of your suggestions and advice show great merit and I thank you. Tomorrow the jeweler and I go over our terms and I will update you guys on what happens. 



HAuCl4 said:


> What did you pay for the torch and tanks goldenchild?. :?:



199 for the torch outfit
129 for the acetylene tank
190 for the oxygen tank
80 for the cart

Filling both the oxygen and acetylene tank will cost less than $50 combined.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jun 27, 2010)

You are progressing very well. Congrats.


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## butcher (Jun 27, 2010)

at a later date you might consider looking into getting a spare set of larger bottles if you are doing large volumes, or do not want to be shut down waiting to get tank filled. you can usually buy a whole set for about 150.00 used.


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## qst42know (Jun 27, 2010)

Being able to buy 24K shot at spot price has got to be quite a bargain for a manufacturing jeweler. I have never seen clean gold ready to work that didn't carry a hefty premium over spot. I understand prices go down on quantity purchases or refining in quantity but by not having large quantities of cash tied up on both ends has got to be a benefit for someone that needs the metal in condition to do their work.

Harold after you had an inventory of your own, when your customers needed additional gold you sold it for spot price?


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## Harold_V (Jun 28, 2010)

4metals said:


> I have seen your hood pictures posted where you did both acid work and burning but how did you burn carpeting?


I rarely burned them myself, although I did burn a few. They were burned using a half of a 55 gallon drum, with a fire beneath. Burning became impossible as our area developed, and open burning became illegal. Do remember, it was rare at this point in time for many to be mindful of the ecology, very unlike today. 

I paid a fellow to do the burning for me. He had a mountain cabin and enjoyed the activity, giving him a reason to leave the "big city". I got back a gray/black waste that required roasting. I didn't use my hood for that, but instead roasted on a sheet of stainless, heated by my melting furnace, under the large hood I had for my furnaces. I had a 1 horse blower on the roof, which provided a rapid exchange of air. Roasting would take the material from the black/gray I described to a pale pink/gray color. I roasted until there were no glowing embers, so the material was carbon free. A room full of carpet would be reduced to a few gallons of ash, which was then digested in HCl. Neither nitric or sulfuric is effective on carpets. When the process had ended, I would have roughly a quart of material, from which I recovered the gold. 

You likely understand that processing carpet was not a regular activity. In all my years, I may have processed no more than about 18. 

One of my clients stopped by the castle one evening, carrying a small peanut can full of filings. He was a regular, and lived near me, although his business was in SLC proper. We chatted for a few minutes, then I had to ask him why he had a small runner of carpet under his arm. He chuckled and said he almost forgot. He had placed the runner in front of his polishing lathes and had used it for quite some time. It was dirty and ugly, so he decided it was time to be rid of the thing. He considered tossing it, but he remembered that I had cautioned him to let me be his disposal service---that anything that came in contact with gold should not be discarded until processed. He smiled and departed. 

His runner, which was no larger than 30" x 60", yielded almost six ounces of gold! To say the least, he was pleasantly surprised, as was I. It was the best yield I had ever experienced from carpet. 

I fancied myself a full service refiner for the gold and silver consumers in my area. If they could produce the waste, I could process for values. I did not provide alloyed metals, but I dealt with anything the customer could provide, and did so with a smile. Processing for the jewelry industry was one of the best learning experiences of my life. 

Harold


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## glorycloud (Jun 28, 2010)

I love your stories Harold. Thanks for sharing with us! 8)


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## goldenchild (Jun 29, 2010)

Still in negotiations.


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## 4metals (Jun 29, 2010)

Carpets always smoke badly in an incinerator. I know a guy who used to pass himself off as a refiner but just pick up the work and rep the entire job at a refinery. He always paid on his incoming weight. 

Carpets are hit and miss, some good, some great, and some not worth the effort. Not wanting to risk paying a big in weight fee, this guy burned his own rugs. He would go into the slums of the city and bring an empty 55 gallon drum and (always on a cold night) light the carpet with some scrap wood and lighter fluid. All of the homeless guys would gather around the blazing fire and in the morning he would pick up the drum full of ashes. It always worked, he never lost a load, and he never paid a burn fee for carpets.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jun 29, 2010)

goldenchild said:


> Still in negotiations.



Know the feelign be paitent and firm.


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## Harold_V (Jun 30, 2010)

4metals said:


> Carpets are hit and miss, some good, some great, and some not worth the effort.


Lets talk about the last one. 

I processed only one that wasn't worth the effort, and that sucker was a total loser. 

The customer, a rather tight fisted dude that hadn't done much work, had put down some carpet tiles in a small work room. He lived in northern Utah, but was moving to Arizona. He drove right past me on the way, and dropped off the tiles, which he had removed before moving. I told him I doubted they'd be worth processing, but he was sure they would be. I ended up with something like twelve grains of gold. I needn't tell you how much work goes in to processing a carpet, so you can safely conclude that I wasn't thrilled with this guy. 

After his move to Arizona, his waste material submitted always contained what were obviously bits from a crematorium. He never spoke of the source, but there was always traces of the platinum group included in the alloys, and they were always covered in a grayish ash. 

I don't miss refining, but I must say, it was one of the more interesting parts of my life. 

Harold


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