# Mobile(cell) phones- real data from refiner



## Todor (Jul 2, 2014)

Hi to all here, I would like to share with you my experiense with Umicore. Sent them 2 monts ago, 2 tons of mobile phones and i have got the results:
AU- 311 grams per ton, payed 95%
AG- 1333 grams per ton, payed 96%
PD - just 40 grams per ton, payed 92%
CU- 18% per ton
(1 MT has 16000-17000 pieses without batteries)
And their treatment and samplaing charge is 3500 dollars, transport 1000 dolars( Iam from Bulgaria). So does it worth it.....no one will give you a phones for free so there is just a little room for profit. Atleast I have tried.

I cant answer my self one thing, why most of the scrap companies(not refiners like Umicore) in Europe pay like 8 Euros for kg cell phones, there is just no room for profit.

Best regards, everyone


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## g_axelsson (Jul 2, 2014)

Thanks for sharing the data Todor!

Was this with the plastic cover still on or just clean circuit boards?
Did you get any payout on the copper? Anything else they pay for? (tin, lead, tantalum...)

Regards, Göran


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## Smack (Jul 2, 2014)

Same question here: Whole phones?
Only other metal they would pay on would be PT Goran, they should have paid on CU though.


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## Todor (Jul 2, 2014)

Yes, whole phones(no cordless phones), just without batteries and back covers, with the plastics. They do pay for the CU, their charge is 30kg CU per MT material. No PT is mentioned in the report. I take the phones without batteries, so that is Someone else's problem.


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## necromancer (Jul 2, 2014)

Todor said:


> I cant answer my self one thing, why most of the scrap companies in Europe pay like 8 Euros for kg cell phones, there is just no room for profit.
> 
> Best regards, everyone




some companies resell parts for reuse, it is very common in the recycling business

the 3 R's

reuse, recycle, reduce.

how much are you getting paid for the batteries ?


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## alexxx (Jul 2, 2014)

Todor said:


> Sent them 2 monts ago, *2 tons* of mobile phones and i have got the results:



short tons ? metric tons ? how many kg or lbs have you sent ?

cheers,

Alex


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## patnor1011 (Jul 2, 2014)

He is from Bulgarie which use metric system so it will be normal ton - 1000 kilograms.


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## Platdigger (Jul 2, 2014)

I too would think there would be a lot more pd.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 2, 2014)

> I cant answer my self one thing, why most of the scrap companies in Europe pay like 8 Euros for kg cell phones, there is just no room for profit.



My guess: The gold alone has a value of about 8,30€/kg, so someone who can process this on largest scale (for example aurubis) along with his copper smelting process gains free fuel and the value of most of the other metals.


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## RikkiRicardo (Jul 3, 2014)

Hi Tudor
i feel that all the numbers were low here is what i got from them on mixed boards from low to high trust me there was not to much high lots of TV boards and Mid grade
11,900 Kg

Au g/t 116.00
Ag g/t 905.00
Pd g/t 33.00
Cu % 21.430

i also feel that you should have some Pt in the cell phones i will have to see where i have the payout payment because i find the percentage was low.

RikkiRicardo


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## perman666 (Jul 3, 2014)

Hello ,

I see from first post here that refining company is Umicore.
Is Umicore working with private persons or you need to have company?

Also, is there any minimum requirments for minimum of material?

Are they correct ? Any info will help me.


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## Todor (Jul 3, 2014)

perman666 said:


> Hello ,
> 
> I see from first post here that refining company is Umicore.
> Is Umicore working with private persons or you need to have company?
> ...


PM sent.


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## JustDigging (Nov 17, 2014)

Thanks for the data, Todor.

Just one question: You mention "payed 96%" etc - what do you mean by that? Is it the share of the yield you turn over to Umicore or what is it?

Thanks,
JustDigging


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## arthur kierski (Dec 14, 2014)

the results seems very low----in my experiments,i obtained 0,6 or more grams of gold per kilo---i retired about a year and half(18months) ago--but these results i remem
ber-----0,6au and0,15pd-----ag varied depending on the sistem that i used
regards to old forum friends
Arthur Kierski


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 14, 2014)

Great hearing from you Arthur. Don't be a stranger.


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## patnor1011 (Dec 15, 2014)

Good to see you again Arthur.


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## arthur kierski (Dec 15, 2014)

thanks Gsp and Partnor for the welcome-----although retired,i entered the forum almost every day and read all the threads-
here in Brazil with many enviromental laws,became more dificult to obtain scraps---one needs to be oficial,that is controlled by a corrupt governement---
i still have my lab,and if something new appears(new type of scrap) i will do some research on it
regards
yours forum friends
Arthur


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## wrmahaff (Dec 15, 2014)

I'm going to say that those numbers pretty correct given my experiences dealing with Sipi and based off of what the other buyers are paying for cell phones. The margins are pretty small, it's more of volume game, to make money, from my experience. And then if you take a large downswing in the market, you can get kicked in the crotch pretty hard. Of course a large volume player is going to be able to negotiate out better %'s than what a small timer will ever get.

Me personally, I don't mind saving my materials until I have enough to be refined, but I'm not buying anymore (outside of mylar, which I've made arrangements to buy through other channels). I can make more than 15-25% with my money doing other things, or smaller returns that have a safer return. With a place like Sipi, all it takes is a bad sample/assay and you're losing money with how tight the returns are.


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## johnny309 (Dec 20, 2014)

May 2007....maybe they want to "close the loop".....and gain more.....

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=13219&p=160196&hilit=umicore#p160196


See page 13(on the pdf document...Umicore)....and you will find that .......the number were very low....


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## richard2013 (Jan 5, 2015)

Todor,

Did you happen to check presence of high number of china phones it has less PM's than the rest.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 6, 2015)

richard2013 said:


> Todor,
> 
> Did you happen to check presence of high number of china phones it has less PM's than the rest.



Most of phones are from China. It is sort of urban myth that Chinese electronics have less valuables.


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## samuel-a (Feb 2, 2015)

Todor said:


> Hi to all here, I would like to share with you my experiense with Umicore. Sent them 2 monts ago, 2 tons of mobile phones and i have got the results:
> AU- 311 grams per ton, payed 95%
> AG- 1333 grams per ton, payed 96%
> PD - just 40 grams per ton, payed 92%
> ...



Thank you for sharing Todor,

Numbers seems ok to me, but the Pd which i would expect to be somewhat higher. But, it is what it is.
Would you mind give a breakdown of your costs, i.e. - lot charge/sampling, treatment, refining ?


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## jabemer (Feb 20, 2015)

so its like a .30gram of gold per kilo


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## MarcoP (Feb 20, 2015)

jabemer said:


> so its like a .30gram of gold per kilo


No, it's half of that. He got 311 grams out of two tons.


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## pattt (Feb 20, 2015)

I think he says :



> Hi to all here, I would like to share with you my experiense with Umicore. Sent them 2 monts ago, 2 tons of mobile phones and i have got the results:
> AU- 311 grams per ton, payed 95%



Pattt


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## MarcoP (Feb 20, 2015)

Somehow I kept missing the "per ton" value, sorry.


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## arthur kierski (Feb 21, 2015)

that result is 0,311grams of gold per kilo and o,04grams of pd per kilo---------------

i insist that these results are not correct----anyone of the members that uses Partnor method for the chips and other methods for the plated cells will get at least double the quantities of gold and palladium that the umicore results showed-----
regards to all 
Arthur Kierski


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## nickvc (Feb 21, 2015)

arthur kierski said:


> that result is 0,311grams of gold per kilo and o,04grams of pd per kilo---------------
> 
> i insist that these results are not correct----anyone of the members that uses Partnor method for the chips and other methods for the plated cells will get at least double the quantities of gold and palladium that the umicore results showed-----
> regards to all
> Arthur Kierski




If Arthur says its wrong I'd tend to believe him he's had plenty of experience refining all sorts of materials!


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## MarcoP (Feb 21, 2015)

But, doesn't the weight includes plastic, board, screen etc.? He sent whole phones without batteries while the method and the yield you are referring to is about ICs chips only.

Marco


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## Todor (Feb 23, 2015)

Let me tell you all that these results are official from Umicore. They say that 1 ton mobile phones without batteries could contain 300 to 400 grams of AU. 
Some member asked me for the charges and taxes. After all the taxes you get the AU for yourself. AG, PD, and CU goes for these taxes.
2 tons of mobile phones is nothing for Umicore , they can tell you everything and you could do nothing.


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## shmandi (Feb 23, 2015)

arthur kierski said:


> the results seems very low----in my experiments,i obtained 0,6 or more grams of gold per kilo---i retired about a year and half(18months) ago--but these results i remem
> ber-----0,6au and0,15pd-----ag varied depending on the sistem that i used
> regards to old forum friends
> Arthur Kierski



I am wondering why recycling companies pay only 8 Euros per kilo of phones. Same company pays 163 euro per kilo of i486 processors. It seems that there is much bigger margin on the phones according to gold yield.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 23, 2015)

shmandi said:


> arthur kierski said:
> 
> 
> > the results seems very low----in my experiments,i obtained 0,6 or more grams of gold per kilo---i retired about a year and half(18months) ago--but these results i remem
> ...



That is a low price for for I486 processors that is equal to about $65 /lb for them.


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## shmandi (Feb 23, 2015)

163 euros per kg is actually U$83 /lb

I see that Boardsort is paying U$100/lb


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 23, 2015)

shmandi said:


> 163 euros per kg is actually U$83 /lb
> 
> I see that Boardsort is paying U$100/lb



Oops, yea sorry converted wrong. Yes Chris does pay $100 /Lb. and I pay $110 /Lb.

Thanks for catching that conversion error.


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## arthur kierski (Feb 23, 2015)

i worked with unicore in Brazil(before its name was degussa)----a very few times unicores results was correct-----that is why i decided to process material on my own-----i know that is a big company----but that does not mean that their work is correct-----
one kilo of cellphone boards contains 60 to 70 tiny black chips----and these chips have 0,6to0,7grams of gold------no plastic cases ----just plain boards with plated gold and chips

if they think that i am not telling the truth---they can make contact by e-mail or other ways or sue me
Arthur Kierski


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## ChemGeek (Dec 7, 2018)

Todor is reporting 311g of Au per ton (1000kg) of battery free mobile phones as per Degussa / Unicore assay.

I recently got a cheap lot of 30kg of battery and plastic cover free mobile phones, most of old type, sold for $100 by retired mobile serviceman.
After stripping them down dilligently for whole day these yielded 10.5kg of clean (plastic, Fe, Al free) PCB boards with nearly all black chips exposed.
So for simplicity of argument one should assume that 1/3 of weight of mobile phone is clean PCB with chips.

So as per Unicore data, out of 330kg of cellphone PCB one should expect 311g of Au, eg. 0.94g of Au per kg of PCB.

So I do not get a point of other member, Arthur Kierski, who claims that he gets more than Unicore and quotes 
0.6 - 0.7g per kg of clean mobile phone PCB.


arthur kierski said:


> one kilo of cellphone boards contains 60 to 70 tiny black chips----and these chips have 0,6to0,7grams of gold------no plastic cases ----just plain boards with plated gold and chips


So he is claiming to get more of Au than Unicore and actually he gets less.
Am I missing something?
Much more gold in pins, gold plated PCB-s, gold plated pads under keybords etc?

For 10kg of mobile PCB electronic scrap yard will pay 212 USD. There should be 9.4g of Au there as per Unicore or 6-7g of Au as per results of Arthur.
So they still have a healthy profit margin, contrary to many claims here.

Assuming 0.94g of Au per kg of mobile boards, it seems attractive source for an amateur too. He would get $375 out of 10kg of boards, versus $212 paid by electronic scrap yard. Expenses of chemicals used should be below $20. 
Assuming a hobbyst does not count his time, he would be better off processing himself as long as results of Unicore can be realiably reproduced.

He would also get a little Palladium and Tantalum bonus and few bucks worth of silver.

Did anyone try to process these?
"Technology" should be comparable to one applicable for RAM sticks. 
Am I correct?


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## g_axelsson (Dec 7, 2018)

As we don't know the age, manufacturer, model... etc of the mobile phones it is impossible to claim the two lots had the same amount of gold per kilo. To do a proper comparison a representative sample has to be taken from a lot sent to Umicore. That is something that is usually done when sending small lots to a large refinery, usually two or three samples, one for the refinery to base the payout, one for the seller to double check and one sealed to send to a third party assay if the two first samples differ too much.
The third party sample could probably be used to check the numbers by an amateur, but I don't think it will be much fun. Usually the samples are fragmented to get a good sample.

... at least that's what I have been told is happening.

This is a problem with presenting yield numbers, it should always be read as one example and not the truth. In the end there is no more gold in scrap than it really are. Manufacturer processes can be changed and processes trimmed to save cost.

GSP have ""The refiner is always the last liar." Louis Labash, 1979" in his signature, but I would like to think that refining is the final truth. ... then I might lie about it, but that's another story. :wink: 

Göran


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## anachronism (Dec 7, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> Todor is reporting 311g of Au per ton (1000kg) of battery free mobile phones as per Degussa / Unicore assay.
> 
> I recently got a cheap lot of 30kg of battery and plastic cover free mobile phones, most of old type, sold for $100 by retired mobile serviceman.
> 
> ...



Hope that helps.

Jon


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## snoman701 (Dec 7, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> I recently got a cheap lot of 30kg of battery and plastic cover free mobile phones, most of old type, sold for $100 by retired mobile serviceman.
> After stripping them down dilligently for whole day these yielded 10.5kg of clean (plastic, Fe, Al free) PCB boards with nearly all black chips exposed.



WOW...you tore apart 60 lbs cell phones.

I'm impressed. 

I will completely tear down a pocket watch and clean each individual part...but won't even begin to think about tearing apart cell phones.


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## ChemGeek (Dec 7, 2018)

@anachronism,
I have sent you PM including details of buyer at stated price.


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## ChemGeek (Dec 7, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> WOW...you tore apart 60 lbs cell phones.
> 
> I'm impressed.
> 
> I will completely tear down a pocket watch and clean each individual part...but won't even begin to think about tearing apart cell phones.


I have just fulfilled my fantasy to destroy, though I have saved most of those tiny screws.


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## ChemGeek (Dec 9, 2018)

Another better known scrapyard who pays ~209 USD per 10kg of mobile PCB at today EUR/USD exchange rates:
Above 100 kg they will negotiate individually.
https://www.precious-metal-services.com/prices-sorting-criteria-for-electronic-waste/ 

So unless there are some EU subsidies distortions/scams, there *must be* enough of gold and Pd to make good for these money.
~5.0g of Au+Pd per 10 kg of mobile PCB is break even under asumption that scrap yard is charity and refiner is a donkey working for free and chemicals/energy/transport etc cost nothing.
Other values (Ag, Ta, Cu) would cover taxes etc.

So assuming that business is a viable one and free of government subsidies there must be at least 7g of Au+Pd in 10 kg of mobile PCB-s *currently* recovered.
With older lots there should be more.


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2018)

There's a lot of "assuming" and "there must be" and "at least" and "should" in that post. It's not raw data it's opinion. I'm not suggesting that what you say doesn't have merit, I'm saying that strongly worded opinions end up being quoted as fact in this day and age and we need to be clear about what is fact and what is merely conjecture.

In a year's time people could be quoting your post as a hard and fast rule, and there are many people out there who listen to what they want to hear to the exclusion of fact.

Regards

Jon


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## canedane (Dec 9, 2018)

ChemGeek wrote about cell phone yield "With older lots there should be more"
Im not sure if we are talking cell phone PCB, but if we are talking about a complete phone i agree.
Look at the price at these two types of cell phones.
http://altmetallhandel-heimberger.de/category/show/25/handyschrott


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## ChemGeek (Dec 9, 2018)

@canedane,
I was writing about PCB-s.
Incidentally you have given a reference to a very good price offer.
Scrapyard mentioned by you pays *$ 265 per 10kg of mobile PCB* what is much above the price which @anachronism considers surprisingly high.
Perhaps now he knows where to sell his stock for a good profit.

*They pay for 10kg as much as for ~6.5g Au+Pd*. 
This suggests that there should be even more of Au+Pd there, or their adventure does *not* make sense, unless there are government subsidies.

It is easy to explain price difference of handsets. In old phones PCB is about 30% of weight of battery and back cover free handset and in smartphones it is usually below 20%.

Regarding gold content in old PCB-s, I have red opinions that in the past manufacturers were more generous with gold platings etc.
Older models were built to last long and new smartphones are just a clever scam directed at milking money out of Millenials who swallow every advertising b/s like pelikans.
So there is no point in making robust smartphone, if social pressure is causing peoples to *upgrade* every year or two because some mysterious and rarely used new functions are there.
Hence more shabby manufacturing practice is OK. Hardly anyone will complain.


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## Hajduk (Aug 25, 2019)

Greeting! Does anyone know what all the metals are pulled from the PCB in Umicore. Do they pay the bill or can it be taken into gold value? Thank you.


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