# liquid gold?



## pazsion

After googling around for things that could be at hand to use to break down gold pins from a cpu, I tried lysol's version of drano...Knowing it contains hydrochloric acid. 

After a while it did work despite others claiming it would not...Ram fingers seem to have dissolved. After about a month, the solution lost it's acidic scent, and became more like oxidized iron. So i began panning it out... The ammount of gold flake recovered did not seem to match up with what was removed... so i looked at the remaining water and drano mixes i was left with. It was yellow in color. So i let it sit in various stages of dilution, into water. Eventually all the yellow settled down to the bottom...you could stir it up and it would sink quickly. Letting the water evaporate leaves a film with gold flakes...re-hydrateing and evaporation results in more and more gold flake being released. So far this has not worked on printer cables etc. Again fingers that connect to the board, easily dissolve. I'm guessing cause of the silver/copper or iron used to aid in plateing, breaks down. 

Is this essentially liquid gold? 

What items that could be available at hand, or easily obtained that is safer to handle then straight chemicals could be used to coagulate the gold...precipitating is the wrong terminology....

Is it possible to just heat this goo, and have it return to a state that is more gold then goo?

The pins from the cpu, are magnetic...so i'm using a magnet as well in hopes that it will help leech out the other metals. And break up the gold on it's way out... Some gold seems to have broken off, but they appear to still be maintaining it's bond. And are still gold in color. Only small specs are observed suspended in the liquid. I've removed the pins and rinsed them, then panned out the specks to get a better idea on how things are going...It's working but slowly...and seems to be losing it's effectiveness at this point. I'm wondering if the remaining material is even gold. it's yellow, not oxidizing...or otherwise breaking down, and remains highly magnetic...the center is grey....oxidizes, but also doesn't seem to be breaking down any more...

I'm toying with idea's right now...using phosphoric acid, from coke, and sulfuric acid... in the 50/50 drano mix. tonight. 

Please if you know of any helpful threads, direct me there...Most threads i find in search have not been helpful. I don't know how or where you guys obtain nitric acid or hydrochloric acid...But i might have to break away from the safer options to obtain a better result.


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## Anonymous

Who's gonna take this one? You guys remember who we are,and what we represent,_before_ unloading on him.It soulds like he needs more help than anyone has needed in a long time(except maybe the urinating guy :mrgreen: ).


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## pazsion

i'm reeading this post now, seems to touch on some of the stuff i asked about...thought you'd like to know where i'm at on the thought processes...and reading...so you don't end up reposting threads i may have read already...

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=14154


Yea, i'm asking for help...in something i can come back to that isn't scattered across hundreds of pages. There should be no unloading or rageing...thank you.


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## NobleMetalWorks

I think people are going to misunderstand you because, at least to me, it sounds like you are using the wrong words to describe what you are experiencing.

Instead of trying to teach you the correct terms, I am going to describe what I think might have happened.

You are trying to recover the gold plating off fingerboards if I understand what you are saying. It sounds like you immersed your finger boards in some type of hydrochloric acid solution, which sounds like it was some form of Liquid Drano.

If you put your fingerboards in a hydrochloric acid solution it's very likely that the HCl was able to start dissolving the base metals from the side of the gold plate, meaning UNDER the gold plate. If this is true then once the base metal has been dissolved, the gold should foil off.

I think that the gold color you are seeing is actually very fine gold flake and not actually dissolved in solution. I believe this to be the case because when gold is dissolved into solution, if it was Auric Chloride without other metals dissolved into solution, then you would have a rich gold colored solution you could see through. But what you are describing doesn't sound like that at all. You stated that once you stirred it up, you could see gold flake, gold particles, etc.

If you dissolved gold into solution, you would need to precipitate it out of solution somehow, you didn't say anything about using a precipitant, you did mention though that you added fluid, evaporated fluid, etc. If the gold was defoiled into small pieces, then it would simply dry as fine gold flake that might be in such small pieces that it would be difficult to see individual pieces. When you use the term liquid gold, I am assuming you mean Auric Chloride, you can only get Auric Chloride if you dissolved gold into solution, which it sounds like you have not done.

So the gold color you see when you are stirring up your solution, is gold foil, just very small. That could be because the base metals were eaten very slowly which could have made very fine pieces of gold foil/flake.

In any case, the more you play around with your solution, the more likely it is you are loosing values.

If I were you, I would stop whatever it is you are doing and download a copy of Hoke, and read it if you have not already. If you read Hoke, you will understand the correct terms to use when attempting to describe what is happening. Also, you would understand why HCl alone will not dissolve your gold foils.

Scott


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## tek4g63

Why did you decide to use drano type stuff for your hydrochloric acid? There is a high likely hood that the drain cleaner has other additives in it and they will cause you troubles. Plus I can't believe the drain cleaner would be less expensive than muriatic acid. Muriatic acid is what most of us hobby refiners use. It can be purchased at the home depot, lowes, pool supply places, and even some wal-marts for less than $ 8 a gallon. Typically it is between 28 and 32% hydrochloric acid.

Like stated above though, read and study before you try all of this again, you will be glad you did. Do a search on the forum for AP it is a good process to learn on.

Sorry I couldn't help with your current situation but I'm sure a more experienced member than my self will be along shortly. Good luck!


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## Harold_V

pazsion said:


> Yea, i'm asking for help...in something i can come back to that isn't scattered across hundreds of pages. There should be no unloading or rageing...thank you.


The help you need appears to me to be the very thing you are resisting. It is very important for you to stop what you're doing and start reading. No one is going to be able to make you understand what you should or should not be doing because you don't understand what constitutes the right thing, and can't describe it if you do. 

The project you have undertaken requires that you know a few things. It's like you're an infant, and you must learn to run. Before you can do that, you must learn to crawl, then walk. Do you understand that concept? If not, why would you assume that you can refine gold if you don't know how it's done?

Do yourself a favor. Put your project on hold, and start reading the forum, along with Hoke's book. Read them until you fully understand what you *should* be doing, and try to forget the things you *think* you should be doing. If you've come here without the proper knowledge, you have several things against you at the outset, and you're just going to get yourself in hot water with readers by not paying attention to what you've been advised to do. 

Trust me on this one. If you do not show incentive to learn what you must know, your stay here will be brief. We insist that new readers do their homework in getting up to speed on the terminology we all use---and to have a firm understanding of the processes involved in recovering and purifying gold. We do not teach these things on an individual basis---we simply help when a person hits a wall. Otherwise those of us who try to help are answering the same questions day in and day out, with no one learning a damned thing. 

Harold


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## butcher

http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/US%20-%20Lysol%20No%20Mess%20Automatic%20TBC.pdf
I am not sure what product you used but it sounds like a dangerous gamble to me.

Chemistry and metals can get very dangerous, if not done properly with understanding.

You cannot just mix any store bought chemical (even if it contains an acid you need), some combinations of chemicals and metals could just actually blow up in your face in a portion of your process.

Taking the advice you were given will get you on a path of learning, what works and what does not and why, it is a long learning process, that there seems no end to as long as you keep an interest in this field.

Hoke's book as suggested is only the first step a very important one, it gives you the general understanding, and gets you acquainted (follow her instructions, this book is like a good movie, you learn something new every time you read it.

Gold and these metals are valuable especially in hard times we face, so why mess around taking chances of hurting your self and others by wasting your time and metals, when your time can be spent learning to do this safely and to gain precious metals that can help you get through hard times.

If I were you I would listen to this great group of people, learn as much as you can, follow their good instructions, not be smart and not experiment with what you think might work, but learn what does.

Buckle down to a good book, and study hard we want to see you melting pure gold, we do not want to hear you are in a hospital bed (or worse) from doing something stupid.

Get Hokes, and get gold.
Study safety, and dealing with waste.
After studying when you get an understanding of the processes, then you can begin to use acids, and if you have done your homework, you will recover and refine some nice metals.

While studying it is a good time to acquire scrap to process later, get the supplies you will need, and gain understanding of the processes.

I hope to see your gold buttons in the gallery section, but it takes patience, and hard work studying, that is the answer you are seeking, the sooner you crack the book, the closer you will be to melting that pure gold.


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## Anonymous

Pazsion I hope you take what everyone has said with humility,and determination to learn.It won't take long to learn what you need to know.On that note,I have a quick story for you......
Some years back,I was having difficulty locating Nitric acid.Instead of using the safe path and ordering it directly I chose to do hours upon hours of research,until I found a product that contained a large percentage of it,and was dirt cheap.So I chose to buy several gallons of the product,and went to work.In my haste,I had not taken into considerationt that the product also contained a large percentage of surfactants.Upon using it,I created an exothermic reaction,and the solution boiled uncontrollably,and deposited gold laden "suds" over a small portion of my property.I had to dump large amounts of water,and bicarb,on my property to neutralize the acid,and of course lost all of the gold.
Learn to walk first.We will be here to help pick you up if you stumble.


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## pazsion

http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/Lysol-Brand-Disinfectant-Power-Toilet-Bowl-Cleaner-US-English.pdf

this one xD

Much thanks for your excellent thoughtful and thorough replies, obviously i'm stumbleing. I've read various articles and books by Hoke...the ones i found or were linked to were obviously incomplete. And mostly aimed at melting and pureifying it. I've always shyed away from the chemical approach. It's just not safe and sometimes unpredictable. The thought of not being able to care for myself or others is both good reason to find a quicker way...And to make sure i'm doing it right to begin with. 

I just remembered we have 2 1/2 gallons of muriatic acid. Historically called muriatic acid, and spirits of salt, hydrochloric acid was produced from vitriol (sulfuric acid) and common salt. <copied from wiki, i'm not gonna play smart when i know very little, but not nothing, always give credit where it's due...> My fool brother claimed it is used to kill weeds...just a few drops of the stuff killed a 3 foot by 3 foot swath of grass i had just planted....All he said was "whoops"/// So now i have it stashed away....Keeping it away from children no matter how old they are. I feel i have a solid idea of how to use it to break down gold, from the other metals used in CPU's etc. Hydrochloric acid alone will do it. Or should.

I really don't like the idea of nitric acid...It's crazy oxidation risk...powerful acid...And i WANT to preserve as much metal as i can...at least be recoverable in some form that can be sold or reconstituted, into a more pure form of it's former self...particularly silver...nickel and copper.

I am willing to learn, I'm looking for someone or a group willing to teach. Repeating the things you told other people...is part of that. I do it everyday and i don't complain one bit. Even if the person is seemingly not absorbing any of the information given to them. Not everyone learns the same way. I suck at math. And i'm very ignorant towards it...never had a use for it until i needed to be extreamly accurate or partition fluids appropriately....cooking...Now i try to learn as much as i can about what i need to know to apply to various things...I still hate it, it's slow as hell...and even though i have multiplied millions of times, i still get it wrong. 90% of the time =c

I have no money, and no means of making money. except for this. And finding e-scrap and processing it in a neighborhood that looks at it as a distasteful pile of trash, even if its 3-4 computers a week...I get stiff resistance from friends and family who do not understand what i'm doing and the value and environmental impacts it has. I need a place to talk about it...not just read about it. 


So far I don't see anything wrong with the steps taken in my process or chemical's used. I'm just stuck and stumbleing and i don't want to toy around with anything that i am un familiar with. 

The gold pins and printer cables and printer cartridges don't seem to want to let go of certain parts of their gold elements And i'm not sure why. Now that we have more details about the chemicals...Please fill me in on if it would cause problems, or prevent recovery in any way. Of course i will let things be as they are, And let it do it's job as is. It's working. I'll start something else along side this Later after we talk quite a bit... 

I don't have a lot of gold anything, I'm trying to learn it well before i get anything significant, Better to mess up a little then a whole lot. So I am most concerned about value loss. Another reason i don't want to use nitric acid. Unless absolutely needed. Finding e-scrap of any kind is hard around here.


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## goldsilverpro

If you aren't willing to use dangerous chemicals, you may as well forget it. The trick is to use them in a safe manner. Nitric is the #1 chemical in real refining. You must use it if you want to succeed in this. There are alternatives, but they are definitely inferior.


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## pazsion

Using acronyms in guides and forum posts, defeats the purpose....what is SMB??


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## pazsion

Didn't say i wasn't willing....Nor could i just give up on the idea.


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## NobleMetalWorks

pazsion said:


> Using acronyms in guides and forum posts, defeats the purpose....what is SMB??



SMB = Sodium Metabisulfite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_metabisulfite

Please, before you go any further, read Hoke, read it in it's entirety, then read it again. Read the forum, follow the threads that pertain to what it is you want to do, there is a wealth of information on this forum. More than any one person could possibly accumulate on their own. There must be hundreds and hundreds of years of combined experience, all here for you and everyone else to learn from.

This is why so many of us are telling you to read Hoke, and the forum, so you understand the terms used to explain the different steps in the procedures used to recover and refine precious metals. I don't mean to harp, I was new not long ago and still fairly new as of now, so I understand. But if you have to keep asking questions about things you can easily read on your own, instead of asking and reading on the forum, then we are going to become frustrated, you will end up frustrated, and people will stop answering your questions.

You have to get up and start walking before we can lead you to the river and teach you to fish.

Download this, and if you need a copy of the book, in hard cover, I have an extra one I can sell you...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2815953/Refining-Precious-Metal-Wastes-C-M-Hoke

Scott


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## Anonymous

pazsion said:


> Using acronyms in guides and forum posts, defeats the purpose....what is SMB??


We have a system here.If you need to ask what an acronym means,that is completly understandable......however,telling us that it "defeats the purpose" is not a good way to start.Most of us have been doing this for many years,a few members have owned refineries for 30+ years.
Which would you rather type....SMB,or Sodium Metabisulphite?


pazsion said:


> I am willing to learn,


If you want to learn from us,then it *will* be on our terms,not "your" terms below,


pazsion said:


> I'm looking for someone or a group willing to teach. Repeating the things you told other people...is part of that. I do it everyday and i don't complain one bit.


If you want to learn a safe,and correct method of recovering,and refining PM's(precious metals),then you can learn that here.But noone is going to spoon feed you what you need to know.And if you persist this style of thinking,you will find yourself on the wrong side of a moderator real fast.


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## qst42know

> I've read various articles and books by Hoke...




Name one article you have read written by Hoke. Show me the link.


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## butcher

What scares me about the HCl drain cleaner you posted the MSDS on is the alcohols (organics), and the ammines (which to me means ammonia type compound's), what you have been working with sounds more dangerous to me than working with nitric acid properly.


I understand you're new and are excited to learn, and all of here will gladly help you as long as you do your part, we are all trying to help you more than you understand, your going the wrong way and this troop is all yelling at you trying to get your attention and point you in the right direction, but as long as you are stubborn and try to go the wrong way we cannot help, the Muriatic acid you had stored is what you needed notthat drain cleaner.

You say you're counting on getting money from recovering and refining to support yourself, well I have to say that unless you had tons of free electronic scrap and the understanding to process it, I do not think you can make enough to feed yourself much less anything else, especially when just beginning the learning process, I feel counting on this for a living at this stage would be a big mistake, I hate to say this but your family and friends are giving you good advice, and the dangers and environmental impacts they are also correct about (but if you learn to do this properly it can be done safely and environmental friendly, the forum will help you learn how). There really is not that much gold in the electronic scrap, and it takes a lot of time to process, also learning it takes time before you gain enough understanding to process the material efficiently, and unless you have access to an awful lot of free scrap or relatively free material the time and trouble will not give you much money, also if you cannot get tons of this stuff for just about or free, then you will have to purchase the materials, again a learning curve that can cost money in mistakes made while learning, If I were you I would start studying, this if it what you wish to learn, after gaining some understanding under your belt you can process material in your spare time, but I would focus on some other way to make money, a job, starting my own business, or whatever I had to do, take a little of that money after you learn to process these metals and work with higher value scrap like sterling and karat gold, learn testing and the simple math in calculating value's of these metals, you could do well buying and selling scrap, doing this and refining part time when you were not working at some other job you could do fairly well for yourself, if you took time to study and understood the things you need to succeed, I do not say these thing to discourage you, it is the reality I see from working with electronic scrap.

I wish you the best, my advice crack that Hoke's book and find some way to make a living if you cannot find a job make a job and start your own business or whatever you have to do, where there is the will there is a way (just sometimes it is not the way, you think or wish it was), and if you do this the forum members here (your new friends), will help you learn refining, and the forum will teach you just about anything you can think of when dealing with precious metals, and how to profit from them.

editted add word I meant to use.


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## Geo

dissolved metals + ammonia = bomb.


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## qst42know

Skip the BS.

You will lose it all if you don't do your home work.


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## Harold_V

qst42know said:


> Skip the BS.
> 
> You will lose it all if you don't do your home work.


It's worse than that. I'm at the end of my rope with guys that come here and demand they be told what they want to hear instead of what they NEED to hear. There's a big difference, and the difference spells whether we spend out time constructively and the reader benefits, or not. 

I get the idea that pazsion is seeking those who might agree with his misguided notions, and ignores anything that might be good and useful, because it's not what he wants to hear. I see a bleak future for him on this forum. 

Clearly, no one is going to tell this individual how to process the material in question. What we will do is steer him in the direction where he can learn to do so, and gain knowledge of the language that pertains to the operations, all the while learning more about safety and proper procedures beyond the actual refining. That isn't an option, it's mandatory, assuming he expects anything from this forum. 

If there are further demands made, with a disregard for listening to the admonition to start studying, I'm going to put an end to this issue by banning the reader. I do not like the attitude I see, nor am I going to learn to like the attitude I see. It sets a bad example for others. 



pazsion said:


> So far I don't see anything wrong with the steps taken in my process or chemical's used. I'm just stuck and stumbleing and i don't want to toy around with anything that i am un familiar with.


Sigh! And yet you pursue your idiotic notions with reckless abandon, some of which may do great harm to either you or the environment, all the while ignoring everything that is known to work? 
pazsion-----get on with reading Hoke's book, and don't ask more questions until you have a basic understanding. If you find Hoke's work to be less than helpful, you are clearly out of your environment and will struggle endlessly. 

You have wasted more than enough of my time on this issue. Put your combative attitude to rest immediately, and read Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what she teaches, then read it again. Mean time, lose the notion that you will re-invent the wheel. Much better qualified people have gone before you and have not done so. What the hell makes you think you can?

Harold


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## Lobby

Hmmm. 

Every time I've read a Drano label, all I've seen is NaOH, not HCl....


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## pazsion

What scares me about the HCl <hydrogenchloride) drain cleaner you posted the MSDS(?) on is the alcohols (organics), and the ammines (which to me means ammonia type compound's), what you have been working with sounds more dangerous to me than working with nitric acid properly.

As always butcher has the best answer xD But all of you point out various important things.^^this statement is what i came here for. Please tell me what it is in relation to this process(liquid gold or mush...likely a mix of all metals suspended in a gel in the solution), what is wrong, what is a better way, summarize your view and feelings, Note any personal observations, opinion's welcome...Should i avoid it...~why~
Props to buchers and the many others who addressed this. In it's entirety. Alot of what i have learned here i could not have answered in any other way. It was specific to my situation, not in a guide. Or forum post i've seen yet. Maybe related, but not specific enough to address the concerns or issues. 

Ammonia and silver oxide(SNAox?)...is dangerous. it can go boom by itself. A previous reply mentioned this, and i've read in wiki and other posts about this and the processes needed to make it happen, fewer discussing how to avoid it or stop/correct it. 

Ammonia and chlorine in tap water...dangerous vapors. Must be ventilateted at all times and concentrations kept extremely low even in an outdoor setting. ~Can easily kill you.~ 

HCL at 10% in this product. less then 1% pw/v of other ingredients...mixing with filtered water, brita..o.01+/-% pw/v of chlorine and reactive metals...per liter of water. 0.500 liters plus 1 ox. cleaner product. with metals present to monitor any immediate action. when diluted completely and let sit for 1 -2 weeks .. adds 1-2 drops sulfiric acid (battery acid-unknown concentration-) and 2-3 caps of coke. which contains phosphoric acid and citric acid, again in unkown concentrations. In a 12oz plastic cup. It's mostly water. Obviously i shouldn't be dealing with anything in unknown concentrations or materials...but beggars can't be choosers, or can we if we have the information available..??. I need to know what works...If i can't find documentation, it'll have to be personal observations at my own risk. With as much safety precautions as possible no matter how ridiculous it may seem at first thought.. 

At these concentrations...any possible vapors produced with the level of ventilation i have, over 12,000 btu's would be less then 0.001 ppm air concentration. Far below any known health concerns. And much lower then current air concentrations any where on this planet. BTW butcher, by environmental impacts, i meant things that were otherwise illegally dumped or would have ended up in a land fill even though state laws impose fines or charge you to dump it. Any material that can be re-used has no business going near a landfill. Any company who does so for profit should pay-out to their contributors. no matter how small and should be market value unless otherwise noted for quality control...Sure a little bit should go back into the planet...But there are some things that we made, that shouldn't go or be in such high concentrations. I also recycle the acid solution in various stages of dilution. I don't let it dry out. Keep them sealed when possible...always vented room and temp controlled room. Never flushed or poured down a drain or mixed with other mixes or acids etc. It kills fish =c and i love the james river and Chesapeake bay. Anything that would reduce pollutants there...is probably gonna be appreciated by humans and animals xD

Sulfuric acid will break down to nitric acid. as i have read recently...particularly if heated. even by chemical process...With this mix you will want to avoid it. Keep it cool. Monitor of reactivity. Do not directly inhale *any* ammount. The alchohol's make the vapor action happen faster, and dilute more quickly in air. It also makes it more easily absorbed by your body. Given this. it is still more safe by multitudes of several thousands..over > nitric acid of any volume or concentration. 

nitric acid is by it's nature an unstable element. And highly reactive. To everything. Includeing you and the space around it. 

If i stop now and add concentrated hcl...even after thorough rinseing... I risk a chemical reaction...hyproammoinia perclorite or something could be made Another boomer, all by itself...*highly unstable*... <correct anything you feel is wrong. If any silver is present in oxidized form. Which nitric acid would produce.

A weak solution as i have it. would simply break down all materials until the point where the solution neutralizes...Don't be mislead by that. it's still very dangerous to handle or be around without *good* ventilation...it's the chemical process is no longer very strong. And the oxidation and acids have been converted to some other material. I would have to let this stuff be panned out with filtered or distilled water several times, over a period of time without letting it dry out, in order to deal with it in a more professional manner, and break it further down to gold of more pure form. This is what i intend to do. 

The mixture will continue to be diluted and used as an initial break down of raw materials, to separate left over materials and alloys/ rinse /release /precipitation/chleateing agent. Nothing more then water will be added to it and i will label it so. 

Yes any more gold i plan to break down will be a separate process. And another thread. Because i'm a noob. And crave human interaction over books or pages of text. Even though we sometimes make pages of text here. It usually addresses questions or uncertainties.Anyone doing such thing as this should be able to do so, as it's some means of closer supervision from more experienced people... I will read as much as i can daily, and observe my results with this mix. I'm finally getting more complete foils after the 3rd half dilution with filtered tap water...I'm guessing the chlorine is reacting with the ammonia and hcl. Maybe even a small ammount of nitric acid...not sure what phosphoric acid and citric acid could break down to. Which is stupid to do. But i have no documentation stating the mix is highly reactive...to metals or other acids. So there is only a bit of any kind of certainty...until i learn more or blow myself up trying...In any case i'd post or somehow document it myself if and when i can. Some how this is aiding in the release of the foils through better reactivity to the nickel /tin and silver? Of the ram chips. and cpu's...

The cpu pins are now completely cleaned down to a copper looking material... still highly magnetic. Is beryilum copper magnetic? I've had a few gold mica? oxidize black in solution, but then when exposed to air it turns gold again...I've re-diped this 3-4 times in the current mix. 

The printer cables and gold ? mica, nothing...I'm guessing this is a higher Karet. A guide suggests that a hydrochloride + chlorine should do the trick. ?

Is there anything better then water to help release the gold and other metals from the goo? sugar, silicon/polymer coatings? whatever ingredients that aren't listed that were meant to hold a gel form?? How do we figure out what it could be?

Right now it's kinda this white / yellow colored stuff that settles quickly, gets all over anything in there. Water alone helps, but it's basically shifting it around. I can remove a good ammount of material from it, but it's still in the stored bottles...I wonder how much of what is left in there. I know if i keep rinseing it I get the bits of gold flake, for me, still worth processing. From what i've been hearing i shouldn't add anything else to it. But at what point is it ok...and how will i test it to know?


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## pazsion

Sigh! And yet you pursue your idiotic notions with reckless abandon, some of which may do great harm to either you or the environment, all the while ignoring everything that is known to work?
pazsion-----get on with reading Hoke's book, and don't ask more questions until you have a basic understanding. If you find Hoke's work to be less than helpful, you are clearly out of your environment and will struggle endlessly.

You have wasted more than enough of my time on this issue. Put your combative attitude to rest immediately, and read Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what she teaches, then read it again. Mean time, lose the notion that you will re-invent the wheel. Much better qualified people have gone before you and have not done so. What the hell makes you think you can?

Harold

I'm sorry you feel this way, I'm sorry that you feel I am giving some kind of attitude, when actually i'm being completely open and not demanding. I'm simply trying to get specific answers and suggestions by being as specific as possible. Dealing with new members seems to be a stressful thing here. I'm not sure why. But it should not be spread around to other members either. The world is what we make of it at times. We don't need to make it worse, or cause the issue we seek to solve. 

I do not proceed with reckless abandon...I ask questions, research and use whatever means possible to gather information enough so until i feel i can put it into action with proper precautions. Otherwise this post wouldn't exist. 

Cheer up buddy, there's more learning going on here then some people touch upon in a life time...and it's because* you* guys are *here* doing your thing. And new people come here and be noobs. xD


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## NobleMetalWorks

I cannot think of one person that has any animosity towards new people or " noobs" as you call them. While we are talking about this, Noobs is really a derogatory term, I wouldn't use that word to describe what you are. You are just simply new to all of this.

It's great you are reading, however reading about the ingredients of a drain cleaner and then posting information about it, does nobody on this forum any good unless you are posting for reasons NOT to use drain cleaner, and making it a warning. There are specific processes for recovering and refining precious metals, and many have been known, and used, for over 800 years. If you think you have found an off the shelf replacement for a process you are attempting to make work for what it is you are trying to do, you are dead wrong. Simply put, again, you need to stop what it is you are doing, right now, stop posting about this process using chemicals and compounds of, that DO NOT WORK and can risk your life and any lives who are close enough to witness and experience your failures. Trial and error is the realm of alchemists, not of chemists. A good inorganic chemist understands, and knows, the resulting reaction and what to expect when combining acids, solutions, metals or anything else we do in the process of recovering and refining. I am not chemist, on the contrary I am a complete amateur when it comes to chemistry, I know this, so instead of going to college and getting a degree in chemistry, I simply follow the well laid out plans, directions, processes of others that came before me. And while I learn more, I add or subtract from my processes those things that will allow me to work more safely, effectively and efficiently. I would suggest you do exactly the same.

HOWEVER, before you do any of that, I have a very important question to ask you. Have you read, or at least started to read, C. M. Hoke? If you have not then you are not doing what it is you need to do, in order to ask questions and effectively communicate what it is you are doing, have attempted to do, or wish to do. It is imperative that you STOP playing around with the solution of "stuff" you have created until you understand what exactly it is you are doing, and even at that, your chemical cocktail might be better to dispose of responsibly, than try to recover any values from it. Why do you insist on continuing to argue your point, or to suggest how to recover any values that might be left in your unknown solution? You have not yet read anything that will allow you to successfully precipitate anything out of your weird solution. It sounds to me as if you have dissolved far more into your solution than what you would have if you used the correct process to recover the values from your scrap. That's what you get for using a drano type product. How can any of us possible know what kinds of compounds your dangerous cocktail has produced, or what polymers, plastics, epoxies or other material is dissolved into your solution? I think you would have to send it to a lab that tests unknown hazmat solutions and even at that, you would probably spend far more money trying to figure out what you have, so you know what to do with it, than any values you might recover from it.

Very dangerous experimentation you are attempting.

And just think, in all the time you have been goofing around with what it is you have, you could have read Hoke, read the exact thread that pertains to the type of recovery process you would need, ask any questions about the process you didn't understand, and recovered AND refined the values from your scrap.

It took me just 2 days to read Hoke the first time, then I read it again, slower. You can in a week, read and understand Hoke with no issues if you can walk, and talk, see and turn pages. Not a loft requirement, she wrote her book specifically for people like you and I who have no prior experience with these things, and she also successfully taught and trained many jewelers, and other people how to do the same. It is the entire point of her book, the reason she wrote it and the reason it has been reprinted and the VERY reason why everyone on this forum who is involved in this type of work, reads it as well. Even the most knowledgeable and experienced people that belong to this forum have read Hoke.

Until you do what the people who have posted on this thread have asked, or told you to do, you are not going to get the answers you desire, nor the attention you might otherwise.

Also, if you are going to quote other people in a thread, you need to quote them using the MyBB code provided. The little bar across the top of the text box you type in has a tab for quoting.


SBrown said:


> Like this


, so that you can clearly define who said what, what was said, and differentiate it from your own response. It makes it very difficult to follow what you said, and what you are responding to.

You cannot even begin to imagine how frustrating it is for people who have been this stage of learning, when you are just starting to understand, barely, what exactly is going on. And to see you struggling so hard when it can be so easy. When they have given good solid and tested advice, and yet you still refuse to follow any of it.

READ HOKE, don't respond to this thread, just simply read Hoke, then come back. Don't take offense, the criticism you have received is the same you will give once you understand what you do not yet understand.

Scott

Edited for correct example of quoting


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## qst42know

Define your goal. Having a goal is vital to a desired result.

Are you looking for a refining method that works, or aimless meandering? 

Refining is rather methodical, follow the path and the result is fairly predictable. Substituting complex blends of unnecessary chemicals won't get you to a desired result and no one will waste their time sorting out the mess you've made. 

Catering to your musings is not what we do here. We all have better things to do with our time.


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## butcher

pazsion, 
sorry I read the last posts you made and I could not understand what they were saying, but what I did see was a defensive attitude, like we are somehow against you (which is a misunderstanding on your part), we are trying to help you, and if you cannot see that, we can soon get tired of trying to help you, if you are just going to refuse it.

On the contrary you should be happy to have friends like this on the forum to help, and try to point you in the proper direction to learn refining and recovery, the sooner you begin to listen to your new friends, the sooner you will have good results. 

Do not take what we say as something bad, that you would have to defend yourself, listen to the message, and consider it good advice from your new friends, try following it and see if they may just be onto something that you cannot see from the position you are standing in now.

Hokes is found in the book section, you sure are missing out and cheating yourself if you do not read it.

hopefully you have ears and can hear, use your eye's to read (they shall be opened).

Good luck,
your new friend, 
Butcher


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## Harold_V

pazsion said:


> Cheer up buddy, there's more learning going on here then some people touch upon in a life time...and it's because* you* guys are *here* doing your thing. And new people come here and be noobs. xD


Allow me to be perfectly succinct. I do not suffer fools gladly, and you, sir, are a fool. You think you will revolutionize gold refining, finding that magical elixir that eliminates all the hazards and magically transforms dirty material to pure gold. Ain't gonna happen, and I'm not going to tolerate any more of your idiotic posting. You, clearly, are not here to learn anything---you are here to promote your agenda, one that is not proven in time, and may well be leading those who have little understanding, down the wrong path. 

We do not coddle those who persist, and ignore our guidance. If you fancy yourself clever and have no intentions of pursuing refining as it is discussed on this board, you don't fit, and we're not going to make allowances for you. 

Why?

Because such readers are disruptive of the forum. Can you not see that this entire thread is a repeat, time and again, of the same admonition, for you to start reading and put your stupid notions on the back burner, at least until you have a basic understanding of refining? How is it you think you can make changes to a process you do not understand? 

If you post again, it best be because you are reading Hoke. If you persist by posting yet again one of your less than wise diatribes, I'm going to ban you, and I expect it will be with the gratefulness of those who come here to learn proper procedures. Take note that many of these guys are very serious about their purpose in being here. What they don't want is anyone posting their pie in the sky dreams, sending misleading messages. They hope to learn things that are known to work. No witchcraft, no magic, no alchemy. Just the facts. 

Get on with it. Start reading, or leave the forum. You, sir, have wasted all the time you're going to waste in my life. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro

pazsion,

I am in total agreement with Harold. I have attempted to make sense of your long drawn-out meaningless posts several times but, after a couple of paragraphs, my brain glazes over. My suggestion is to learn and use the proven processes first. After that, you can experiment with your own improvements. Re-inventing the wheel most always ends in frustration, especially when you don't have the foggiest idea of what you're doing.

Here's the download link for the Hoke book in case you don't have it. It's very easy reading. Read it!

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2480


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## jimdoc

goldsilverpro said:


> pazsion,
> 
> I am in total agreement with Harold. I have attempted to make sense of your long drawn-out meaningless posts several times but, after a couple of paragraphs, my brain glazes over.




I am so glad to see that it wasn't just me, I couldn't even read the whole rambling either. Or any other similar posts.

Jim


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## Geo

ive tried to avoid this thread like it was hot to the touch. i was wondering how long it would take to anger Harold. we should start a pool, betting on how long it takes for a particular yahoo to tick Harold off. :shock: :lol: :lol: 

of coarse im just joking. i dont think some thing like that would be appropriate.


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## Palladium

Good Lord!!! :shock: 

I want to take a minute to give Scott a pat on the back. I've been watching and reading some of his posts and replies. I like his logic and his postings. Good job Scott !!!


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## NobleMetalWorks

Palladium said:


> Good Lord!!! :shock:
> 
> I want to take a minute to give Scott a pat on the back. I've been watching and reading some of his posts and replies. I like his logic and his postings. Good job Scott !!!



I don't know what to say except thank you...

I try to contribute when and where I can, and although I need corrections, many times, I am learning volumes by interacting with posts and people on this forum. The reasons I feel so passionate about discussing is many fold, but the main reason is that this forum, and the people who contribute to this forum, have enabled me to seize my future firmly. I closed a business, sold off my partnership in another, and did not have much to invest after loosing the bulk of what I have built for my future retirement in the real estate market. This site, and every person who has helped me learn, and still do, has enabled me to secure my future once again.

And I'm happy to say that my future has been sparkling bright, gold and silver in color.

I'm glad I was able to post something positive on this thread as well.

Scott


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## pazsion

> I am learning volumes by interacting with posts and people on this forum.



Thank you guys for being positive. I hope there is more!

Simply put, as i have stated at least 3 times... it works. I was seeking factual or any evidence anyone had that it would be more dangerous then it was worth.Or cause me to lose gold. So far this is not the case. Thanks for all your help. 

I'm still coming back to this thread and others to read any further info others can provide. And to read the links, and re-read anything You guys have suggested. It feels as if there isn't enough time sometimes. But I need to focus and do things right. It will be worth it. 

I'm not here to fight period. It seems as though some are offended while not even reading what i wrote. quite strange. Not what i'm used to in these forums either. It's ok i'm not offended. and i'm not easily offended either. It's foolish to insult a student. Particularly if you want them to learn anything, and listen to you. Insults tend to wipe out any authority, credibility, weight or value to what you say. Can you please stop?

My goal is to retrieve gold, and all metals it's attached to. Whenever possible. Particularly nickel, silver, gold itself, platinum anything possible. It's all valuable. And can add to the net profit. When and if i find a buyer for any of it. 

The foils i have are very pretty. and inspiring. Even the printer cables are now releasing their gold. I'm not sure why, but i guess sometimes it just takes time. And a little stirring.

You, sir, are a classic example of one who refuses to follow the decorum of the forum. You have been advised that you should cease posting if you insist on promoting your diatribe. I offer you my admonition to cease and desist as my reference:


Harold said:


> If you post again, it best be because you are reading Hoke. If you persist by posting yet again one of your less than wise diatribes, I'm going to ban you, and I expect it will be with the gratefulness of those who come here to learn proper procedures. Take note that many of these guys are very serious about their purpose in being here. What they don't want is anyone posting their pie in the sky dreams, sending misleading messages. They hope to learn things that are known to work. No witchcraft, no magic, no alchemy. Just the facts.
> 
> Get on with it. Start reading, or leave the forum. You, sir, have wasted all the time you're going to waste in my life.



I am banning you for a period of two weeks. If, in that time period, you reflect on yourself and can return to the forum, leaving behind the crapola you're spewing, you will be welcome. Come back with yet more of your diatribe and disregard for those of us who run this board and the ban will become permanent. 

Harold


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## pazsion

goldsilverpro- is that the entire "book"?


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## goldsilverpro

pazsion said:


> goldsilverpro- is that the entire "book"?



It's all there as far as I know, all 369 pages. I think it's the same copy Ralph put on Scribd a long time ago.


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## pazsion

awesome thank you!


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## tek4g63

I could be wrong, but I doubt it, when I say that none of the long term members and moderators have insulted you without reason. Some of what you may be thinking is insults, is more like criticism. Criticism can be constructive if you choose to view it as such. What I mean is, if you take it as an insult your likely to throw up your defenses and resist what your being told. If you see it for what it really is, criticism, then you can accept it and use that information to better your self, or in this case, your process. The choice is up to you. But I do have a saying for this situation. " If one person calls you a dog then you can take it as an insult and fight back. If ten people call you a dog you can choose to surround your self with different people. If 100 people call you a dog then you need to go to the pet store get a collar and start sleeping in the yard because you my friend are a dog."

With that said, if you choose to resist the advice given by the members and you actively choose to reinvent the wheel, none of the great minds here will be willing to help you when you totally screw up.

I'll use myself as an example. I came here with a few silly ideas about gold recovery. Fortunately I also had an open mind. I took advice from the members here and used the tried and true methods outlined here. By following the steps carefully and to the best of my ability I am happy to report that three days ago I melted nearly $ 800.00 worth of gold. And I did it safely.


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## butcher

tek4g63, 
You did do a very nice job on that gold, and what is more valuable than that shiny metal is the knowledge and skills you are gaining, and you are correct, it is not our intention to insult anyone, to walk blindly on the edge of a cliff and feel insulted or get upset if someone yelled stop would not keep you from going off the edge, but maybe if one would listen and try and understand what they are saying, and consider they may see something that you do not see, if you do, you may learn later they were only trying to help, if you do not you may never learn.


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## NobleMetalWorks

pazsion said:


> Thank you guys for being positive. I hope there is more!
> 
> Simply put, as i have stated at least 3 times... it works. I was seeking factual or any evidence anyone had that it would be more dangerous then it was worth.Or cause me to lose gold. So far this is not the case. Thanks for all your help.



What have you stated three times that works? What exactly is it that works? Are you talking about your original post about using a drain cleaner product?

I hope that's not the case, I hope you are not trying to endorse the use of a drain opener product as being worthy of refining precious metals with. If that is point to your comment I really hope other members chime in. I am under the belief that we here on this forum do not promote dangerous, unsafe, unproven ways to recover/refine precious metals.

Are you also trying to say that nobody has given you factual information about what you are attempting to do with a drain cleaner and it being dangerous?

I really hope I just read your post wrong, but would you please be kind enough since so many people spent so much time attempting to steer you in the correct direction, would you clarify what exactly it is you meant?

Scott


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## Harold_V

I've had more than enough of this individual. He is making statements that will cause no end of conflict with those who hope to learn, which, to me, is not different from misinformation, be it intentional or inadvertent. Regardless of cause, it must come to an end. I'm not so sure that he's not doing it intentionally. I am also less than enamored with his disregard for those of us who operate the forum, dictating that we should stop doing our jobs. I get just a little bit testy when I encounter such folks. 

Frankly, I'd like to rip off his lips. 

I'm giving him two weeks to think about the nonsense he's promoting. If that doesn't cure his obstinance, I'll give him a permanent vacation.

Harold


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## kurt

Pazsion – did you come here to learn how to recover & refine precious metals? --- I will assume the answer to that question is yes. – That being the case I am going to give you the best advice I can.

You need to shut you mouth & open your eyes, ears & mind. --- Please understand I don’t say that to be rude rather I am just giving you good advice. Why???

Because you have found “the best” source of information on the internet about the recovery & refining of precious metals PERIOD. --- Much (if not most) of the info you find on the internet about this is ether mis-information &/or incomplete information – so most of whatever you have read, seen or heard else where on the net you can most likely throw in the trash can (which is why you are having a problem in the first place & is why you are here asking questions in the second place)

I started playing around with this about 3 years ago. – for the first year & a half I was going on all the other info floating around out there on the net & I lost far more then I ever recovered (much let alone refined) --- Then 16 months ago I found this forum – in the last 16 month – thanks to the info here on this forum – I have recovered & refined over 400 troy oz of silver close to 4 T oz gold & am now working on the platinum group of metals. --- do the math – that’s a fair chuck of change made in 16 months from something I am just “beginning” to learn & working at as a hobby.

Harold was the owner operator of his own refinery for something like 20 years – goldsilverpro has worked for 30 plus years as the lead chemist in a large volume refinery & that is just the tip of the iceburg of experience & knowledge you have access to here on this forum.

So you can ether come to terms with the fact that you need to follow their lead & continue to be a member here & learn the real art of PM recovery & refining --- or you can persist with telling them under which terms they must teach you – in which case you will get booted (I am actually surprised Harold is giving you 2 more weeks at this point) & you will be back to trying to do it based on all the mis-information & incomplete info floating around out there on the net.

If I were you – I would shut my mouth & open my eyes, ears & mind till I had a better understanding of PM recovery & refining. --- That means do as they say --- read Hokes (one time through) then study Hokes (read & take notes) & search, read & study this forum – then run some small batch experiments – then start asking questions on what you ether don’t understand &/or on something you are having a problem with.

Those are the terms & conditions if you really want to learn the art of PM recovery & refining as a good standing member here on this forum.

Kurt

Please note that I edited a little bit of information that conerns me, to reflect more accurately what I have experienced. I wanted the report to be factual, in spite of having to lower my *time in grade*. Thanks for the glowing comments, Kurt.

Harold


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## martyn111

As a cocky teenager (way back in my distant past) I was told that I have 2 eyes, 2 ears and 1 mouth, and if I wanted to learn anything I should use them in those proportions and that order.
Translated to learning from the forum, read everything you can on a choosen subject, listen to what that reading is teaching you, and if you have questions that you need to clarify anything, then you can use your mouth. Its working for me.


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## Anonymous

You banned him? all i see is you getting mad =c It was hard to read this thread and have you ripping him to shreds for putting to use what he learned on these forums. Thankfully the community was helpful and some actually offered great information. This thread helped me. And i hope it continues :shock:


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## jimdoc

hokereader said:


> You banned him? all i see is you getting mad =c It was hard to read this thread and have you ripping him to shreds for putting to use what he learned on these forums. Thankfully the community was helpful and some actually offered great information. This thread helped me. And i hope it continues :shock:




How is it you just joined and picked this post to comment on within 6 minutes?

Jim


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## NobleMetalWorks

hokereader said:


> You banned him? all i see is you getting mad =c It was hard to read this thread and have you ripping him to shreds for putting to use what he learned on these forums. Thankfully the community was helpful and some actually offered great information. This thread helped me. And i hope it continues :shock:



This forum only exists so long as the people who belong to it, contribute to it in a responsible way. When someone who is new and has no experience, nor background in this, claims that their dangerous process works when all knowledge in chemistry states otherwise, and then promotes their illogical and unsafe process, it would be exceedingly irresponsible to allow that person to continue posting about their dangerous experiment.

I saw nobody getting mad, I only saw responsible members attempting to set the original poster straight, which he refused to follow more than one time. This is a problem sometimes with people. They do not know enough to understand they should be far more humble about their experience here. Maybe if they understood that this is a professional board that includes professional hobbyists and it's not a forum for alchemy and dangerous off the shelf experimentation.

If only the original poster had read Hoke prior to posting, and perhaps read a few threads before also, he would not have made the mistake he did. He would not have insisted on supporting his method of recovering gold because after reading Hoke, he would have realized it was not possible and he wouldn't have wanted to sound ignorant.

Scott


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## Anonymous

He basically used a weak concentration of hcl...and asked if the other ingredients would cause un-intented chemical reactions with anything else he used.


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## jimdoc

hokereader said:


> He basically used a weak concentration of hcl...and asked if the other ingredients would cause un-intented chemical reactions with anything else he used.



He basically used, or I basically used?


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## NobleMetalWorks

hokereader said:


> He basically used a weak concentration of hcl...and asked if the other ingredients would cause un-intented chemical reactions with anything else he used.



See, this is exactly the problem I stated exists when people insist that their strange or weird process does something which it cannot. And then continue to support the claim even though they have been told, over and again, how their process cannot produce the claimed results, nor was their process safe in any fashion.

And here you are defending the original poster, and why? Because you are either that same person, or you are someone new who read this post and believes the wrong and incorrect information. This is exactly the reason the original poster was banned, if they were banned.

I would be careful defending people who have posted information which doesn't sit well with the members on this forum who are serious about recovering values from material, specially those who are attempting to make a living out of it. You are perpetuating and suggestion unsafe and unclear processes using unsafe products that cannot possible perform as claimed.

Scott


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## Harold_V

hokereader said:


> He basically used a weak concentration of hcl...and asked if the other ingredients would cause un-intented chemical reactions with anything else he used.


*He* is *you*, according to our logs. 

Nice knowing you.

Harold


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## kurt

that didn't take long :shock: some people never learn :roll:


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## Harold_V

kurt said:


> that didn't take long :shock: some people never learn :roll:


What some don't realize, or fail to respect, is that we have a way of communicating on this forum. It's based on the fundamental teachings of Hoke, so we tend to all be on the same page when a subject is being discussed. When a person comes along that refuses to comply, even if they have a valid statement, it makes things difficult for readers, as they are often left confused, and may well try mixing procedures, which may or may not work. 

All we ask is for readers to prepare themselves so they understand what we do here, and to try to fit in instead of being obstinate. I can't speak for the other moderators, but I don't have enough time at my disposal to try to please these folks. If they can't see the wisdom in trying to fit in, then they have no business here. 

This guy thinks himself clever, signing in under another name. That won't help him, as we know who posts, and from where. It also permits us to file a grievance with their ISP, often with the results that they are booted from their provider. 

That's exactly as it should be, for people with that mindset are nothing more than terrorists. 

Harold


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## kurt

Harold_V said:


> kurt said:
> 
> 
> 
> that didn't take long :shock: some people never learn :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> What some don't realize, or fail to respect, is that we have a way of communicating on this forum. It's based on the fundamental teachings of Hoke, so we tend to all be on the same page when a subject is being discussed. When a person comes along that refuses to comply, even if they have a valid statement, it makes things difficult for readers, as they are often left confused, and may well try mixing procedures, which may or may not work.
> 
> All we ask is for readers to prepare themselves so they understand what we do here, and to try to fit in instead of being obstinate. I can't speak for the other moderators, but I don't have enough time at my disposal to try to please these folks. If they can't see the wisdom in trying to fit in, then they have no business here.
> 
> This guy thinks himself clever, signing in under another name. That won't help him, as we know who posts, and from where. It also permits us to file a grievance with their ISP, often with the results that they are booted from their provider.
> 
> That's exactly as it should be, for people with that mindset are nothing more than terrorists.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


All I can says is a big AMEN to that Harold - & thank you for keeping this the "Top Notch" forum in refining that it is :!: :!: :!: 

Kurt


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