# Sodium nitrate ratios fo AR help please!!!



## martinusta1980 (Jan 17, 2012)

hi i'm new here and planning on start refining my own gold.
i've been lurking on the forum and i must say i've found some very useful information, and for that, thank you very much.

i have few very specific questions, i bought LAZERSTEVE dvd's karat gold and a-z silver but still have some interrogants (gaps) in the process that i have not been able to find the answer to:

1.) if i want to use SODIUM NITRATE PRILLS for the AR mix what is the ratio ( i have the ratio for when using NITRIC, but trying to save some money)

2.) when setting up the filtering vaccum device (same as LAZERSTEVE video) what kind of filter paper should i use: fast, medium or slow? and, is the size 7cm?

3.) can i use regular coffe filters to filtrate the SILVER NITRATE before cementing? 

4.) is there a ratio of COPPER TO SILVER when CEMENTING? or just put copper until Silver cement stops forming around it?

5.) is it OK if i use DISTILLED water through all the process or does it have to be tap water after AR.

6.) is there any other base metals that i should be aware of (like lead) when refining karat gold? and what chemicals should i use to get rid of it? my goal for now is just to refine karat gold and recover the SILVER, only by cementing, perhaps will get into the cathodes and silver crystals later, but for now just interested on having a decent purity gold / silver.

your help is very much appreciated, thank you for take the time and reading through my post.
Martin.


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## Anonymous (Jan 17, 2012)

First off ,Welcome to the Forum Martin.


martinusta1980 said:


> i bought LAZERSTEVE dvd's karat gold and a-z silver


You get a big thumbsup for that.


martinusta1980 said:


> 1.) if i want to use SODIUM NITRATE PRILLS for the AR mix what is the ratio ( i have the ratio for when using NITRIC, but trying to save some money)


I do not have a lot of experience with jewelry,and of the experience that I do have,I have never used sodium nitrate on it.I have used it for years on escrap,and my method is simple.
Dissolve as much base metal as possible using Hcl/peroxide,let settle overnight.Decant,then add Hcl.Make sure you add a little more than you will need to absorb the estimated amount of gold.Warm the solution(do not boil) and add a teaspoon of sodium nitrate prills,and allow it to work.When the reaction stops,look to see if there is any visible gold.If there is,add more prills(1/2 teaspoon at a time),and repeat.You will become familiar with how much to add,as you get used to doing the procedure.


martinusta1980 said:


> 3.) can i use regular coffe filters to filtrate the SILVER NITRATE before cementing?


Yes,as long as the solution is clean,and clear of contaminants.If there is any contamination,you will need to use the "charmin plug" trick.If you don't know what that is,let us know and we'll explain it.


martinusta1980 said:


> 5.) is it OK if i use DISTILLED water through all the process or does it have to be tap water after AR.


Yes it is "ok",but not needed for every step.
We have many members that are extremely well versed in jewelry,and I they will start chiming in to help as they read your post.Good luck,and welcome again to the forum.
Johnny


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## philddreamer (Jan 17, 2012)

Welcome Martin!

This from some information that Lazersteve posted & I have saved & use when preparing my Poorman's AR. I hope it helps!

"NOTE: When substituting nitrates for nitric acid in Poorman's AR here are some handy numbers:

1. When used to dissolve gold powders use 4 mL of 31% HCl per gram of gold plus:

1.343 g NaNO3 (sodium nitrate) per gram of gold to be dissolved.
or
1.597 g KNO3 (potassium nitrate) per gram of gold to be dissolved.

2. When used to dissolve copper based scrap 4 mL of 31% HCl per gram of copper plus:

5.35 g NaNO3 per gram of copper to be dissolved.
or
6.36 g KNO3 per gram of copper to be dissolved.

3. When using NaNO3 be sure to include 1.5 mL of water in the reaction per gram of NaNO3 used. When using KNO3 be sure to include 4 mL of water per gram of KNO3 used.

These numbers are the theoretical values. The actual required amount will vary with reaction conditions and reflux of the vapors. With good temperature control (just below boiling) and proper reflux (watch glass or condenser) the actual required amount of nitrate (or nitric) can be reduced. 

The best mileage from the nitrate can be obtained when it is added in small increments during the course of the reaction. Let each addition fully react (all tiny bubbles cease and red vapor in condenser clears) before adding the next dose. Start with very small doses to avoid boil over’s. As the reaction nears completion, (all of the target metal is dissolved), add only very small amounts of the nitrate. 
Steve"

Take care & be safe!

Phil


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## martinusta1980 (Jan 17, 2012)

mic, philddreamer

thank you for a quick response, i forgot to mention i'm inquarting with silver. i agree with LAZERSTEVE videos being great !!! though for some odd reason he didn't include the cementing process on his A-Z silver video, so i've been trying to figure it out. after the first 50-50 mix of NITRIC - DW that blue liquid (silver nitrate) that im going recover my silver from needs to be filtered prior to cementation? right?

"Yes,as long as the solution is clean,and clear of contaminants.If there is any contamination,you will need to use the "charmin plug" trick.If you don't know what that is,let us know and we'll explain it."

that would be great as i have no idea what charmin plug refers to!

thanks again.
Martin.


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## philddreamer (Jan 17, 2012)

Martin, the charmin is a piece of toilet paper, used as a plug or filter & placed in a funnel. I use fiber glass insulation. They both do the job.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=11064&p=118591&hilit=charmin+plug#p118591

Then, to the clean filtered solution you place a piece of clean copper & the silver (& palladium if any present), will cement. You then rinse the cemented materail & melt into ingots, & process those thru a silver cell.

But, one step at the time. 
Martin, you do realize that, no "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!
Are you taking the proper precautions?

Phil


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## philddreamer (Jan 17, 2012)

Martin, this is a step by step that I put together from information shared by members of the Forum. 

Read it & I hope it helsp you. Phil


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## martinusta1980 (Jan 17, 2012)

Great, thanks phil

i think i'll stick with the fiber glass, you would think that the toilet paper would break down and end up with toilet paper in your solution, of course that's just my impression, but what do i know!
i don't want to be over inquisitive, but is there any chemical to precipitate lead (if any) from my karat gold, and at what point/how in the process is made, reason i ask its because i saw some video (that i can't find) where the refiner added few drops of __________??? to precipitate any lead present, i just can't recall what it was.

thank you in davance.


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## martinusta1980 (Jan 17, 2012)

Also, whenever you're done with the fiberglass/toilet paper, what do you do with it?? i mean, its gonna be pretty wet, can you just squeeze it into the rest of the solution?

thanks!


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## Anonymous (Jan 17, 2012)

martinusta1980 said:


> i think i'll stick with the fiber glass, you would think that the toilet paper would break down and end up with toilet paper in your solution,


I assure you,it will not.If rolled properly the toilet tissue works great.I personally think that the tissue plug works better because it is very easy to roll it different ways,for different desired results.I can make it looser,tighter,or expand the surface area for a faster filter.but if you are using a vacuum pump,then none of my methods matter,just roll it and turn on the pump.I want to mention that I have never used the fiberglass method,but I haven't had a problem ever using the tissue.I just keep a roll in my lab.Maybe I should get some filter flasks to use with my pump.


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## Geo (Jan 17, 2012)

martin,

as a heads up,be sure to use bought nitric acid for silver recovery.if you make your own nitric acid, be sure to distill the acid otherwise it will be contaminated with sodium forming silver chloride as soon as the silver dissolves.


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## Oz (Jan 17, 2012)

martinusta1980 said:


> I don't want to be over inquisitive, but is there any chemical to precipitate lead (if any) from my karat gold, and at what point/how in the process is made, reason i ask its because i saw some video (that i can't find) where the refiner added few drops of __________??? to precipitate any lead present, i just can't recall what it was.
> 
> thank you in davance.


Sulfuric acid precipitates the lead as a sulfate. Filter it from your solution before precipitating your gold.


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## martinusta1980 (Jan 17, 2012)

"as a heads up,be sure to use bought nitric acid for silver recovery.if you make your own nitric acid, be sure to distill the acid otherwise it will be contaminated with sodium forming silver chloride as soon as the silver dissolves."

thank you very much, i'm using 70% nitric for my 50-50, Sodium nitrate for the AR.

oz:
thanks for the info, how much sulfuric should i use, and when? after AR?


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## Oz (Jan 17, 2012)

If you have 100 mL of auric chloride, 1 mL stirred into solution will suffice. Add the sulfuric acid prior to your final filtration (prior to gold precipitation) and be sure you have filtered your solution clear.

You should also chill your auric chloride solution after adding your sulfuric acid. This allows a little time to let the sulfuric react with any lead present in solution, as well as causing silver chloride in solution to precipitate. Silver is far less soluble in a chloride solution that is cold.


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## martinusta1980 (Jan 17, 2012)

crystal clear, thank you very much to all who helped, not many forums like this out there, where people go out of their way to try and help fellow members.


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## lazersteve (Jan 17, 2012)

martinusta1980 said:


> mic, philddreamer
> 
> thank you for a quick response, i forgot to mention i'm inquarting with silver. i agree with LAZERSTEVE videos being great !!! though for some odd reason he didn't include the cementing process on his A-Z silver video, so i've been trying to figure it out. after the first 50-50 mix of NITRIC - DW that blue liquid (silver nitrate) that im going recover my silver from needs to be filtered prior to cementation? right?
> 
> Martin.



Martin,

The cementing process is on the A-to-Z Silver DVD. It's at the end of the very last video chapter.

Steve


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## lazersteve (Jan 17, 2012)

martinusta1980 said:


> hi i'm new here and planning on start refining my own gold.
> i've been lurking on the forum and i must say i've found some very useful information, and for that, thank you very much.
> 
> i have few very specific questions, i bought LAZERSTEVE dvd's karat gold and a-z silver but still have some interrogants (gaps) in the process that i have not been able to find the answer to:
> ...


As seen on the Karat DVD it took 3 1/2 teaspoons of Sodium nitrate prills to dissolve the 35+ grams of gold. Phil has already quoted my previous posts on the stoichiometrical ratios for sodium and potassium nitrate. Seldom in practice do these formulas hold exactly true. For this reason add as needed until no further action is seen or the gold is dissolved as demonstrated on the DVD.



martinusta1980 said:


> 2.) when setting up the filtering vaccum device (same as LAZERSTEVE video) what kind of filter paper should i use: fast, medium or slow? and, is the size 7cm?


Choose the speed/size of paper that best suits your filter and particulate to be removed. Each type of paper is used for specific particulate in the solution. 

Here's a photo of the back of the Whatman filter box:









martinusta1980 said:


> 3.) can i use regular coffe filters to filtrate the SILVER NITRATE before cementing?


As long as it catches all of the particulate, yes. 



martinusta1980 said:


> 4.) is there a ratio of COPPER TO SILVER when CEMENTING? or just put copper until Silver cement stops forming around it?


Typically around 3.5 to 1 copper to silver as previously stated.



martinusta1980 said:


> 5.) is it OK if i use DISTILLED water through all the process or does it have to be tap water after AR.


Distilled for silver and inquarting reactions, for all other reactions tap is fine as long as you don't have lots of iron in the water supply.



martinusta1980 said:


> 6.) is there any other base metals that i should be aware of (like lead) when refining karat gold? and what chemicals should i use to get rid of it? my goal for now is just to refine karat gold and recover the SILVER, only by cementing, perhaps will get into the cathodes and silver crystals later, but for now just interested on having a decent purity gold / silver.


Answers already given. 

Steve


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## Anonymous (Jan 17, 2012)

I don't believe I have that DVD do I Steve? Do you have an extra copy available?


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## lazersteve (Jan 17, 2012)

I don't know which ones you have mic, check my web store for items 1-5 for DVDs. I'm in the process of making more.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Jan 17, 2012)

I checked and I do not have that one.Can you try to have a copy for me by monday? Thanks


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## martinusta1980 (Jan 18, 2012)

thanks steve, i found it, didn't finish watching that chapter. wich one will give me the best purity/weight loss results? (talking about the filter paper)


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## martinusta1980 (Jan 18, 2012)

i meant the filter paper for the vaccum filter set up.


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