# Bleach acid gold dissolver



## Drone (Jan 20, 2011)

Why isn't muriatic acid and bleach the standard to dissolve gold being that bleach can be bought at any grocery and muriatic can be gotten from most hardware stores? The cost and convenience would seem to dominate the more costly procedures? Is precipitating the gold out of the bleach and acid mixture more difficult?


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## lazersteve (Jan 20, 2011)

The bleach method is not as fast acting as AR. It also is more voluminous than AR. Your gold must be in a very finely divided state or very thin foils for HCl-Cl to act in a workable amount of time.

For foils recovered from acid peroxide, HCl and the crockpot, or nitric acid it's great. For cold weather leaching of catalytic converters it's also very good. And as you mentioned it's very cost effective and highly available to the hobbyist.

Most guys are in such a hurry, they cut as many corners as they can and therefore prefer the fast acting AR, especially when working with karat gold and other bulk gold items like buttons. As you may come to find out in your readings here, this haste is one of the largest sources of error you will see by the majority of the members on this board.

Welcome to the forum,

Steve


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## qst42know (Jan 20, 2011)

AR proceeds with some small amounts of silver present, does HCL-Cl tolerate some silver content?


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## lazersteve (Jan 20, 2011)

qst42know said:


> AR proceeds with some small amounts of silver present, does HCL-Cl tolerate some silver content?



Good point, not as well as AR.

Steve


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## Drone (Jan 20, 2011)

I appreciate the welcome Steve, and hope to make friendships with others through our common interest, "and my last fling at self-employment", of gold refining. So when I saw that bleach could dissolve gold I just had to find out if I could be so lucky. As for now until my money gets better, I will have to search out ways to improvise with home products at first and then later own, to the proper methods. I have come across some early cell-phones, about 20 lbs. of them without the casings, the kind we had to plug into the car sockets to operate. I also was given a half a gallon of muriatic acid. As a small sample, I took a board with components still on it and soaked it in HCL (muriatic acid). Then strained and used peroxide to lift the foils. And then put bleach into the solution, and right before my eyes the foils disappeared. I need to strip off the green enamel to expose the gold underneath it. Yes I am aware that boiling lye will lift it. I wonder if I were to make my own lye ash would be strong enough?


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## texan (Jan 21, 2011)

You will find that most PCB have copper under the solder mask and not gold. There are exceptions however. If you look at the gold contact points on the PCB with a microscope or loupe you can generally see that the lead from the gold contact point is actually a different color and you can see the division between the point and the copper lead underneath the solder mask. It all depends on the application the board was going to be used for. If a PCB was going to subjected to conditions out of doors and the extemes of weather the more chance there might be gold under the solder mask. As has been stated on the forum before design engineers will not specifiy gold unless it is absolutely necessary.

Texan


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## Drone (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks Steve that cleared it up for me. 
There is a whole lot of Gold on my antique cell-phone boards and I want it pure and solid.
And to reiterate, Acid+Bleach only to dissolve Gold leaf or powder. 
What isn't clear to me is the Periodic Table. Where does one start to learn how to use it?


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## qst42know (Jan 21, 2011)

There are many online tutorials on the periodic table.

Here is just one.

http://www.csun.edu/~psk17793/G%20Chemistry/reading_the_periodic_table.htm


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## Drone (Jan 21, 2011)

qst42know said:


> There are many online tutorials on the periodic table.
> 
> Here is just one.
> 
> http://www.csun.edu/~psk17793/G%20Chemistry/reading_the_periodic_table.htm




Excellent and I looked all over the web to find such a place and couldn't 
Thank you qst42know


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## captain_toker (May 27, 2011)

its still un-clear to me how we get the gold out of the acid where do i find that info ?


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## Palladium (May 27, 2011)

That information is located in the book by C.M. Hoke. It can be found in the links below in my sig line.


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## Harold_V (May 27, 2011)

captain_toker said:


> its still un-clear to me how we get the gold out of the acid where do i find that info ?


You have been admonished to do some reading, so you begin to understand the basics of refining. I'm amazed that you continue to ignore good and sound advice, asking questions that are easily answered by a little effort on your part. Many of us have very little time to dedicate to the forum---it shouldn't be wasted on mundane questions that expose your lack of trying to learn. 

You have been advised to read Hoke's book---likely more times that I am aware. I recommend you get on with that project and stop asking questions that have no need to be asked. 

In recent posts, we have discussed the phenomenon that appears to be pervasive in today's generation---that of instant gratification and an entitlement mentality. That doesn't fly here. 

Please get a grip and do your part. 

Harold


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## captain_toker (May 28, 2011)

wow harold u need to lighten up you think i should know where to find things if i dont ask i dont know the terms to look for im not just going to read all the posts and hope i find it i get to the point and ask people . people who ask will learn more if they know where to look dont just blindly insult smart people that are new to the site and i dont just meen me you are not almighty you my be a vetran but be nice to people you dont know you helped me make a good choice before but why be rude if i knew that info was there i probaly wouldent have even needed this site but i do have things to share but like you at one time i am learning . thanks for the prior help harold

and thank you palladium i got it now .


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## Harold_V (May 28, 2011)

While I can appreciate your comments, from the perspective of those of us that try to help, there is a never ending supply of people that come to this forum and wait for information to be given to them with no effort expended on their part. Some demand that it be given, and expect that, at least to them, they are entitled, in spite of them having no useful knowledge, and not being willing to do any research. That has to come to an end----we simply can not continue to provide fundamental information that should already be known by those that have an interest in refining. That's the reason I continually tell readers to read Hoke. She introduces the novice to refining in such a way that they gain an understanding---so when they do have questions, the answers they receive will make sense to them. Best of all, she provides excellent guidance in testing and in making test solutions, so readers will understand what they have, instead of posting questions that generally can't be answered because they often withhold pertinent information, or ignore good and proper procedures because they pursue that which they want to believe, not that which is known to work. Like it or not, Hoke puts us on a common page, so we all understand the topic being discussed. She is the one that teaches the likes of you (and me) how to walk, so we can then run. Does that make sense to you?

You provided an excellent example of your bone headedness yesterday when you challenged being told that you should not melt in metallic vessels, and provided what was, to you, evidence that your position is solid. You went to great lengths to provide your intentions, ignoring information posted by one of the most valuable members of the forum (4metals). It was for that reason I asked you to either pay attention to good advice tendered, or to silently pursue your goal, so others don't get the wrong impression. As I suggested in my comments, we try to avoid misleading information on this forum. That is not going to change, so I suggest you get used to the idea and start paying attention why harebrained ideas you post are met with a challenge. 

I've been on this forum since its inception. There has been a steady stream of readers that have questions that refuse to do any research---and are often at odds with anything they are told that is not in keeping with what they hope to hear. At some point, that has to end, otherwise there's no reason for people like me to be on the forum. If our words have no value, and readers insist on pursuing their notions---then take exception to being reigned in---I clearly have no need to be here---although I won't speak for others. The tone of your posts reflects exactly what I'm talking about. You need an attitude adjustment, and I'm the one that can do that for you very easily. The choice is yours. 

What needs to happen is for you to start reading and stop talking. Until you understand the things that most of us have learned by expending great effort, do not come to this forum and pretend to be the inured party because you are amongst those that I have described. 

So then, I expect that you're going to start reading Hoke, then when you post a question, I expect that you'll understand what you are being told, and why. 

While I'm on a roll, please use capitalization and punctuation where appropriate, when you post. If you don't have enough consideration for others and make your posts easily read, why should anyone spend their valuable time trying to help you?

Readers, here, gain a huge amount of knowledge that has, up to now, been very difficult to obtain. I hope you understand the gift that has been placed before you in this forum. 

Harold


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## captain_toker (May 28, 2011)

well your attitude makes you a punk dont judge people by the questions they asked or the ideas they have . this is a discussion bord right where questions are asked and hopefuly answered . i ask for help not demand it unlike you who seems to demand people to do what you say . i got the help i needed for the most part and i will ask more questions and i will learn what i can from it . a wise man once said if man askes no question then no answer will be gotten .

ps my puncuation is bad because you are rude and disrespectful of those who are not as wise as you in this feild get some respect for other people . if you dont agree with someone then say why dont insult them . you answer if you want to you are not forced to respond

 Your punctuation was bad long before I became :"disrespectful", so you can lose that weak excuse for your poor manners. 

I'm going to give you the opportunity to retract your comments. You can do that by asking a moderator to delete this post, or you can do that by sending me a PM, or posting in this same thread. 

Did you notice the post under this one? The one that said "Incoming"?

My job on this forum is to keep it running smoothly----which includes banning anyone that doesn't heel. You have been given fair warning. Your attitude is not going to be tolerated. You live by the rules of the board, or you live without being able to post on the board. The board will go on as usual, with or without you as a reader. All of us know this is the only place on the internet where you can gain the knowledge needed to refine with success. As I said, the choice is yours!

Next move may be checkmate. 

Harold


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## eeTHr (May 28, 2011)

:shock: Incoming.


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## jimdoc (May 28, 2011)

Now that is the Harold we love around here!
You Captain_Toker, will not be missed if you don't chill out and learn.
If Harold or any other moderator calls you out, it is for a reason. They are not here to pick on anyone. Just to make things civil and safe.
I have guessed many new members early departures. You I see still have a chance, but I can't say for sure, because you just may blow it. I say 50-50 at this point, your call.

Jim


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## glondor (May 28, 2011)

Captain Toker. There are NO other resources or compilations of information available on the topic of precious metal refining ANYWHERE on this planet that come even fractionally close to the massive amounts of information available on this site. YOU HAVE FOUND THE HOLY GRAIL for refiners. If you really want to learn, loose the teenage type blog attitude, Attend this site like it is the ultimate university of precious metals, And attend any one who WILLINGLY gives of their free time to you as the professors of this craft. 

I cannot stress enough you WILL NOT find this information ANY WHERE else in one place ANYWHERE. 

The Information available here can guide you on a course of massive success if you choose to play by the rules, so swallow your pride, man up and do what Harold asks and begin a fascinating journey into the world of precious metal refining.

Disagreeing sparks many an interesting discourse on methods and operations.

Disrespecting allows one the opportunity to stand on the outside looking in and wondering what happened.

Don't piss off the professors. No one wins.


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## martyn111 (May 28, 2011)

glondor said:


> Disagreeing sparks many an interesting discourse on methods and operations.
> 
> Disrespecting allows one the opportunity to stand on the outside looking in and wondering what happened.
> 
> Don't piss off the professors. No one wins.



I couldn't have put it any better. I would rather listen to (read) the comments of someone who knows what they are talking about than bother with the comments of disrepectful wanna be!


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## captain_toker (May 28, 2011)

if you all think i desrespected anyone then remove me i did nothing but give my peice of mind that he disagreed with . thats all i dont have to put up with harassment there is a place called unlv . nobody will learn anything if they do not ask . im not an english major . im a captain . peace out


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## butcher (May 28, 2011)

Captain, The Man giving you Advice was not harassing, He was being Straight with you.
If you could see past your pride you will come to understand, and as others had said, you have a lot to gain by sticking around and learning, Harold's frustration over these question's asked by people unwilling to put forth their own effort is shared by many of us on this forum, and as it has grown so much with thousands of new members, it is almost impossible to keep up with. 

Members MUST BE WILLING TO STUDY ON THEIR OWN.
think of joining a mountain climbing club and expect the other members to haul your dead weight up the mountain for you, no you would be expected to learn to climb on your own.

If a member here really does want to learn and puts his own effort into it the members on this forum will go far and above the call of duty to make sure you get over that mountain.

Harold is one of the masters in this business and on this forum, and should be treated with the utmost respect, his comments may seem in your eyes disrespectful but that is because you are seeing not with your eyes but with PRIDE, a major downfall of all us man is Pride, in pride we think we are real men in reality it is childish and foolish.

Nobody wants to see you leave this forum, as you may become a great member, a simple apology for being a cut up in class and then download HOKE'S book, some reading and comeback in a few weeks and see if you do not see things differently, if you stick around here you will see why we all respect Harold so much.

If you want to keep down the same path all I can say is good luck


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## Claudie (May 28, 2011)

captain_toker said:


> if you all think i desrespected anyone then remove me i did nothing but give my peice of mind that he disagreed with . thats all i dont have to put up with harassment there is a place called unlv . nobody will learn anything if they do not ask . im not an english major . im a captain . peace out


 Captain Toker, I believe you may have toked too much. I don't think you realize what you are throwing away here. If you are really interested in refining, this is the place to be, if you're not serious about it, then no loss for you I guess. I think Harold has already put up with more from you than I would. :|


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## jimdoc (May 28, 2011)

People who aren't really serious, get offended really easy and leave an awful lot around here. You can pick them out by the questions they ask, and the drug related names they choose. I guess toker didn't really want to learn. Oh well, bye-bye.

Jim


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## Harold_V (May 28, 2011)

Having heard from toker (via PM), including his prolific use of four letter words, it is clear that he is not a good fit for this forum. He confirmed my hunch, that he was here for less than constructive reasons, and was not willing to be civil. We won't be hearing from him again. 

Harold

Edit:
I would like to thank those of you that understand (and endorse) my approach to this forum. We have much to lose by allowing the atmosphere to degenerate to the level typical of much of the internet---where morons choose to disrupt otherwise good and worthy fora, and, often, go unchecked. Here, we expect (demand, really) that individuals be on their best behavior, and that they apply themselves to learning. It's clear that we are all willing to be helpful, but it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that we expect total cooperation, and a mannerly approach to the forum. We do become combative when met with rudeness. 

One of my objectives in dealing with circumstances we encountered with this individual is to establish their desire to be cooperative and non-combative. Those that respond kindly and show an interest in mending their way are forgiven (ask mic!). Those that cop an attitude find themselves on the short end of the stick. My objective is not to ban readers, although I do so with great pleasure once they have displayed an unwillingness to mend their ways.


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## Palladium (May 28, 2011)

Im a joker
Im a smoker
Im a midnight toker........ 
I do my refining on the run. 
Wooo hooooo Wooo hooooo


:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## texan (May 28, 2011)

Toker.....you need to chill dude....

I spent some 6 months on the forum before I started any attempt at gold or PM recovery. I recomend a stop in your recovery efforts until you have a good grasp of the chemistry involved. Some of the processes involved pose some serious danger if you do not know what you are doing. The guys here are trying to help you succeed and you can if you give them a chance. What we do here is for the most part hobby refining/recovery...get over it if you think you are going to make any kind of living from this...the returns are for the most part just not there. You can however chill out, learn some interesting science and put some real gold into your pocket at the same time. The choice is yours. 

Texan


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## nickvc (May 29, 2011)

I think that one very important point that many new members fail at first to realise is that all the moderators and many of the regular contributors to the forum do so purely for altruistic reasons, every post is done for free, every reply takes valuable time and the knowledge passed on is in many cases from decades of hands on experience.
Those that take the time to read and learn find themselves in a unique place where help,support and comradeship is the norm and where the members protect this forum and it's leadership because it is too valuable to be allowed to become degraded and dragged down to a level where participation becomes a chore rather than a pleasure.
Common manners and respect cost nothing and I for one grateful that that is what is on display in virtually all posts, bad practice and dangerous ideas are quickly squashed and the reasons why are normally explained.
We count many expert professional refiners and many more expert amateurs, people of all races,religions and differing political views amongst the membership and it works by observing the simple rules of the forum.
Those that won't follow those rules find out very rapidly that their stay is short and I'm personally very grateful as it allows this unique forum to maintain it's standards.


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