# Copper Recovery



## SilverNitrate (Mar 23, 2008)

Copper is a wonderful material, It can drop gold from an auqa regia solution and as well as drop silver from a nitric acid solution. So what about dropping copper?

I used to simply poured this down the drain, but didn't realize that it could actually be corroding the steel pipes. So why not recover Copper with steel... so thats what I do. Iron is very cheap and abundant, some rusty old plumbing pipes and dumbbels will do the job quite well. 
Zinc can do it too, but not so available and aluminum don't work on the copper nitrate also you'll create nasty aluminate jellies. 

The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.


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## Noxx (Mar 23, 2008)

SilverNitrate said:


> The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.



Hmmm, I'm not sure about this. Never heard of any scrap yards taking scrap copper in powder form coming from acidic solutions...


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## SilverNitrate (Mar 23, 2008)

Noxx said:


> SilverNitrate said:
> 
> 
> > The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.
> ...



I had in mind those who were perhaps hoarding pre-1982 US cents for their copper. And that some time in the distant future copper would be precious enough to sell small quantities for very little fees.


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## Harold_V (Mar 23, 2008)

SilverNitrate said:


> Copper is a wonderful material, It can drop gold from an auqa regia solution and as well as drop silver from a nitric acid solution. So what about dropping copper?
> 
> I used to simply poured this down the drain, but didn't realize that it could actually be corroding the steel pipes.



If your community has a sewage disposal system, you'd best hope they never get wind of your stupid trick of pouring copper nitrate down the drain. All of their processing equipment was seriously compromised by your actions. Copper is readily precipitated on iron (steel), destroying it in the process. Pipes are a concern, but just the tip of the iceberg. 



> So why not recover Copper with steel... so thats what I do. Iron is very cheap and abundant, some rusty old plumbing pipes and dumbbels will do the job quite well.
> 
> The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.



I wish you luck. I sent two 55 gallon drums of precipitated copper to the landfill when I couldn't find any takers, even for free. Bear in mind, I lived in the same valley as Kennecott Copper Corp., a firm that runs a precipitation plant in Copperton, in the mouth of what used to be Bingham Canyon (it is now a hole in the ground, having been processed for values). 

Unless you have a cupola, there isn't a way to economically melt the recovered copper. Fluxing will destroy crucibles too quickly, so you're most likely going to find yourself in the same position I found myself, which is to discard the copper after precipitation. At least you won't be doing damage as you were before. 

May I recommend to you that you try to recover the copper electrolytically. If you are successful, you may be able to melt it for use in recovering silver. Using it to recover gold is not a good idea, not unless you're recovering gold from a batch that has problems and you intend to re-refine the gold and precipitate it with a selective precipitant. No one uses copper to recover gold otherwise, because it is NOT selective. It is far from a clever idea. 

Harold


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## Froggy (Mar 23, 2008)

"stupid trick" "far from a clever idea".. a little grumpy this morning Harold? Thats why the guy asked, to get a better idea of what to do with it, your suggestions and knowledge are much appreciated but please,please lighten up! Smile. its a beutiful Easter Sunday, at least here...  :shock:


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## SilverNitrate (Mar 23, 2008)

Harold_V said:


> If your community has a sewage disposal system, you'd best hope they never get wind of your stupid trick of pouring copper nitrate down the drain. All of their processing equipment was seriously compromised by your actions. Copper is readily precipitated on iron (steel), destroying it in the process. Pipes are a concern, but just the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> I wish you luck. I sent two 55 gallon drums of precipitated copper to the landfill when I couldn't find any takers, even for free. Bear in mind, I lived in the same valley as Kennecott Copper Corp., a firm that runs a precipitation plant in Copperton, in the mouth of what used to be Bingham Canyon (it is now a hole in the ground, having been processed for values).
> Harold



Ok, that was years ago before i had internet and learned of some techniques for handling the copper. I don't have the means for melting copper. If I am able to accumulate several pounds of copper precip, and not able to melt it, the powders could be fused into ingots on a break press, (i used to do this to my gold powders to reduce volume) 
Or the powders can be runned in a ball mill then sold later on eBay... they'll sure to buy it there!


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## Harold_V (Mar 23, 2008)

Froggy said:


> "stupid trick" "far from a clever idea".. a little grumpy this morning Harold? Thats why the guy asked, to get a better idea of what to do with it,


Wrong!

No questions were asked-----but information was provided that is not in the best interest of the readers. Part of my purpose in being here is to keep others out of trouble, not to pat them on the head when they post stupid ideas. When bad processes are posted, they *should* receive a response that sends up a red flag for others---so they don't pick up on anything that is not in their best interest, or that of the environment. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Mar 23, 2008)

SilverNitrate said:


> I don't have the means for melting copper. If I am able to accumulate several pounds of copper precip, and not able to melt it, the powders could be fused into ingots on a break press, (i used to do this to my gold powders to reduce volume)


One of the realities of recovering copper with steel is that it isn't very clean after recovery. That's why I alluded to melting with a cupola. I've been down this road enough to understand the ramifications. I melted several pounds of copper, which was used for silver recovery. The fluxing was tough on my crucible---cutting short it's life by a large margin. There's also the time involved, along with the cost of flux and energy. I found it was cheaper to discard the copper than to attempt recovery. Keep in mind, I needed copper regularly----but it was cheaper to discard it and replace with clean copper than it was to a recover. 

In order for the material to be reasonably clean, you'd have to do a wash of sorts. I can see where you might be successful using HCl, but a wash in sulfuric would likely be more successful, and not dissolve copper, just the oxides. That equates to money and time, making the yield far less valuable. How much time and money are you willing to spend on what amounts to a few dollars worth of copper? 

I'm not trying to be unreasonable----just trying to explain the realities of the situation. 

Keep in mind, my comments and experiences revolve around a time when copper scrap was fetching less than 50¢/pound, and was only a little more than $1/lb. at the refinery. With today's higher value, could be it can be processed at a profit, although I have my doubts. Just as the price of copper has risen, so too has the cost of energy and supplies. You'd still be working for a few pennies, at best. 



> Or the powders can be runned in a ball mill then sold later on eBay... they'll sure to buy it there!


P.T. Barnum said it best. There's a sucker born every minute. It's possible you'd sell to such people, but they wouldn't receive much for their money. 

Running the material in a ball mill will alter it's appearance, but will do nothing to purify the metal-----so it won't look much like copper unless you've washed it very well with acid. If you do that, there's likely no need for the ball mill. 

Assuming you got it clean enough, and you had a press at your disposal that was large enough to form reasonably sized pieces, I can see where you might use what is akin to powdered metal technology to fuse the material into bits that might be accepted by scrap yards. Problem is, the cost of equipment and time spent forming the pieces would far exceed the value of the copper. Unless you can do this on a grand scale, it's a losing proposition. 

If I'm wrong, and I certainly can be, it would be a service to all the people that read this forum if you can post a process that is successful. 

Harold


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## Palladium (Mar 23, 2008)

Their are companies out their who sell recovery equipment to recover copper from the spent solutions of etching and plating baths. This is because of the profifit and cost of disposal. This copper has been recovered and sold to copper refineries for years. Yes they do buy it.

Wonder why all these compaines make these products if you can't sell or use the recovered materials. Hummmm

Plating from a chlorine solution takes less electrons (half i think ) than plating from a solution of say H2So4.

As far as the comments of you an froggy > I would say that the reason we are all here is to learn. And Yes that includes new systems and methods of recovery. I to appreciate your wisdom harold, But things have come a long way since you stopped refining ( 1994 ) What's that 14 years ago. And that book your pushing though it is knowledgable and proven is like what eons old.

The point is if we are not trying new processes then science is not progressing it's standing still. That's what i like about this forum and always have. Plesae stop opressing free thought.


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## lazersteve (Mar 23, 2008)

Pd,

Harold and Sodium Nitrate are talking about copper precipitated from refining solutions. This copper sludge is typically loaded with other impurities. 

The companies you are referring to are for the most part printed circuit board manufactures and the like. The copper from their solutions is more easily purified than refining wastes. They also produce and sell very large quantities of it at a time, this is why the copper precipitation machines are selling. Plus they greatly reduce the waste products which cost the pcb manufactures lots of money to store and dispose of. They are making money because they are saving money in their work flow. It's cheaper for them to buy the machine and regenerate the copper than it is to pay the storage and disposal fees for their spent solutions. 

A home refiner does not have the luxury of large quantities or high purity copper. Trust me I've produced quite a bit of the copper sludge myself. Harold is dead on, the stuff varies greatly in purity, very hard to clean up, time consuming to work, and near impossible to melt in any sizable quantity. It's not profitable on the hobby scale. 

As for your comments about the Hoke book, I feel you must have not read the book. I own a copy and it has shed more than it's money worth of light on my refining. I find myself referring to it on a daily basis.

I'm all for new developments and discoveries thru good science, but without the fundamentals no one can expect to make an improvement in any scientific field. If you discount the work of the past great scientist due to the age of the material you are loosing the wisdom of the ages which has been passed on forever. New discoveries are seldom, if ever, made without standing on the shoulders of the giants of the past. Hoke's book was a monumental work in refining education. Her work is referred to in many other refining texts I have read. Some things are timeless and Hoke is one of them. The methods she presents are easy to understand and straight forward in approach. Her methods work even today.

In short you can not skip the fundamentals and expect to make a leap forward in the technology of refining. Part of this learning process is learning good habits and that's what you can get from Hoke. You can also learn the differences in testing the various solutions as well as disposal techniques. Solution and substance identification makes up a good part of the science of refining. Without it you will be as lost as a blind man. Hoke teaches this technique also.

Steve


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## Palladium (Mar 23, 2008)

Good point Steve,
I understand what you are trying to say. The home refiner.
What i am referring to is that some of these people have the means to try and recover other material. Their are members that visit this forum who have a vast supply of this material and have the means for generating this type of waste . Some of them may be trying to come up with some off the wall process that might be somewhat feasible given their parameters. I'm sure if someone generated enough of this material their is some one some where who will buy it. Has to be, it's cheaper than getting it from the ground when you recycle it. If they can get the metals out for value they don't care if it came from refining gold, or from cooking pancakes. If the value is there it's there. Only question is how much it cost to recover it. Like what people do here with gold. 

Are we to assume that the forum only supports the small refiner or recyclers ? Can we not have an open discussion about technology without being scalded and told that we have to do it the approved way. And as far as hoke. I have read some of her book and agree it is a great book for the novice. But she is not the god given word on it either. And having it shoved down you throat is more like a religion than an open mind that can explore new ways in technology. I would think if i wanted new technology to be presented i would much rather have it done in a open format such as this forum, that to have it introduced in a corporate environment where profit is the main driving course.

If we follow those rules of though then this forum would have never been created, Your work around processes would have never been introduced to the world. Which by the way, Great work Steve. and we would all be going by the Ar process which has been around since it's discovery. We would still be at the mercy of others who have the knowledge, but yet refuse to share that knowledge except that it benefit their just cause or pocket books.

Instead we have ventured into new territory and went against the status quot. This is what has progressed both the knowledge and the understanding of the refining and recovery field to the average Joe ( no pun )

I've only been here a short time and don't post much, hell don't know much but i can see it.
Anyway thanks, I'll just sit back and raise my hand for now on.


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## SilverNitrate (Mar 23, 2008)

Not to be the creater of a great debate, But yes the forum should be about new ideas and thoughts in the area of refining. Then there are people like me who are not seeking to create 4 9's gold. There may be rhodium and PGMs in the gold we collect but feel as if they aren't much in quantity to be bothered with. My bout with MidStates Recycling was to employ a rudimentary refining technique as for example they do not get credit for the silver content of jewelry gold. I'm happy to take karat gold to 95% or better just to remove the few dollars of silver. These scrap dealers only melt down, assay the gold content, then sell the bars as they are based on gold only. 
As for my OP, the main objective is to remove copper from solution before pouring it down the drain: flushing down the toilet: tossing out in the garbage, or any means of disposing it. Many here I'm sure have poured their copper away (as I have in the past). I didn't have the luxury of owning Hoke's book, or other feasible means of instruction on the matter. True the copper will have levels of nickel, manganese, zinc, silver, iron and amongst others But having mainly iron oxides, and sodium nitrate/chloride is far better than dumping silver chloride and other heavy metal constituents. Mainly copper in the solid form could indeed be pressed into blocks or rods and sold for perhaps $1.50/lb to your local aluminum can recycler.


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## lazersteve (Mar 23, 2008)

Pd,

I feel the forum should be open to all new ideas, just like you said, I've produced a lot of off the beaten path methods myself. Look at what DallasGoldBug has brought to the table. It's a new angle on an old idea. Scavengers salt cell variations are another excellent example of methods that have turned out to be really good ideas. There's nothing wrong with free and open speaking about any subject no matter the scale or size of your operation. We all have our unique points of view.

The forum is not meant just for the hobbyist, but I would venture to say that the majority of our members are relatively new to refining. Some are old time prospectors, others are young lads just starting out. With such a broad audience it's dangerous to make generalized statements concerning methods new or old. If I may speak for Harold, I feel he is trying to err on the side of caution by keeping the acolytes on the straight and narrow until they have earned their wings so to speak. He's not advocating that everyone use AR or even the methods that he or even Hoke uses. Instead he may just be trying to save them all a lot of wasted money and time. Where else can an individual refiner get advice from someone that has been there in the real world of refining? There's nothing worse than to be just starting out and screw it up to the point where you lose interest in refining as a whole. 

The more advanced refiners you are speaking of have already learned these hard knocks and should be wise enough to mix what they already know with the advice of the others to define their own unique methods. Perhaps they will gain nothing and maintain there current methods, perhaps they will learn something new. I can only hope they will share what they have learned with everyone here. 

It would be a great loss to every member here if someone with advanced knowledge were stifled to post a new and unique method by the 'status quo' as you put it. Instead, it is my hope that we can all get along and help one another to be better at what it is we all love. It may be best stated that every post should be taken in it's own context. Some may be for the advanced or large refinery, while other information, like owning a copy of Hokes, is a fundamental to learning the ropes of refining. 

From my own personal experience it takes several ideas to get the right angle on any method. Two heads are better than one.

With that said feel free to post as you wish. Keep in mind that your audience is varied, from the ultra novice to the large refiner. Keep it clean and polite. Above all have a good time and share what you have learned. 

Steve


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## Palladium (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks Steven. :wink: 

I hope you don't think i was trying to be difficult. :?


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## Harold_V (Mar 24, 2008)

Palladium said:


> Their are companies out their who sell recovery equipment to recover copper from the spent solutions of etching and plating baths. This is because of the profifit and cost of disposal. This copper has been recovered and sold to copper refineries for years. Yes they do buy it.


Thus my comments about researching the recovery of copper wastes by electrolytic methods. 



> Plating from a chlorine solution takes less electrons (half i think ) than plating from a solution of say H2So4.


Yes, and you can travel much faster by air than by land, but that has nothing to do with the point at hand. Refiners are stuck with copper nitrate----and must deal with it accordingly. They don't even have the luxury of copper sulfate. Remember-----the purpose is to refine gold----not copper. Copper is a byproduct, and does not warrant a huge investment so a few dollars can be recovered. 

It took me 20 years to accumulate two 55 gallon drums of copper sludge. Market value at the time may have been $1,000, assuming it was clean copper. It wasn't. How much time and money do you think I should have invested in the waste material in order to get it to market? 



> I to appreciate your wisdom harold, But things have come a long way since you stopped refining ( 1994 ) What's that 14 years ago. And that book your pushing though it is knowledgable and proven is like what eons old.


Yes, I realize it's eons old. And still viable. 

You may be lost in this subject, but I am not. You apparently missed that point. It's still viable, and not to be ignored. It is the basis of gold refining, regardless of your approach. Without the knowledge in that book, you will wander aimlessly, never quite understanding the basic principles of refining. If you intend to refine. you'll learn it one way or the other if you intend to succeed. If you don't think it should come from Hoke's book, *please provide an alternative source. *

You're likely no kid. Am I to assume you've worn out your usefulness because you are no longer 16?

Every day I see questions asked on this board that are nothing more than the basics----an obvious sign that the reader in question doesn't have a clue----yet refuses to spend a few dollars to be enlightened, choosing instead to plunge in over his/her head, then turn to those of us that have experience to bail them out when their efforts go south. 

How many hours of each day do you think I should be contributing to the betterment of others, repeating the same basic information over and over? That's what the last year has been like. 

Remember----I get nothing for my contributions---they are a service to the readers. I may not get paid, but I refuse to get insulted when I'm giving of my time. _I hope you get my drift. _



> The point is if we are not trying new processes then science is not progressing it's standing still. That's what i like about this forum and always have. Plesae stop opressing free thought.



Nonsense! Get a grip and come to terms with the idea that if you don't understand the basics, you, nor anyone else, will contribute to progress. If readers don't have a clue how to test for gold, or how to recover it, I'd be interested in hearing how they're going to make revolutionary changes in the chemistry of gold. We have professional people that work in chemistry on a daily basis----and I don't hear them touting revolutionary processes, yet you tell me that the common man is on the threshold of something new? Show me. 

Nothing is new in gold-----it was all done 100 years ago by Rose. 

My purpose here has been clearly stated. It's to help others learn the art of refining gold-----it is not to endorse methods that are less than satisfactory. Part of my responsibility is to insure that readers don't get mixed signals-----picking up practices that are not proper, or not in their best interest. A good example of that is precipitating gold with copper. Why not aluminum, or steel? Both of them work. Zinc works, too. 

There are many substances that can be used to precipitate gold without adding impurities to the final product that detract from its quality. Copper is not amongst them. Someone should speak out so others don't use the process, then bother me with their questions of why their gold isn't pure. 

Buy Hoke's book and read it so you'll understand the wisdom of my posts. Or, stumble along aimlessly, but in that case, please do not turn to me for advice when your efforts don't bear fruit. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Mar 24, 2008)

SilverNitrate said:


> Mainly copper in the solid form could indeed be pressed into blocks or rods and sold for perhaps $1.50/lb to your local aluminum can recycler.


Yes, you said that before. 

Again, how do you propose the common man press this material into blocks? How much time should an individual spend on $5 worth of copper to get it to market? 

If enough material is created, there are good and viable methods of getting it to the market place, both as scrap, or even as electrolytic pure. That's not where the average home refiner is likely to find him/her self. You're dealing with, at most, a hundred pounds of copper sludge over long periods of time. Assuming it was pure, and solid, it might be worth $200 on today's market. How much time are you willing to spend to get it to that point? How much money are you willing to expend getting it to that point? 

Some things are simply beyond the scope of the home refiner. If you enjoy doing such things and are willing to swap dollars for other dollars, by all means, do as you suggest. Buying or building the necessary equipment in order to process such small amounts of waste makes no sense-----nor does dedicating the time to the project. You are, financially, far better off to extract the heavy metals, then dispose of them properly. The time you'd waste screwing around with a few dollars worth of copper could be spent recovering gold instead. One of them has the potential to yield better rewards. Now we have to decide which one it is. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Mar 24, 2008)

I would think that processing stuff like computers and electronic scrap the value of the base metals like copper actually is more than the gold content. Many years ago you may not have been able to sell stuch stuff as copper dust but I would think that you could find someone willing in todays market to purchase this copper. I would also point out that the solder contains tin as well as lead. I get 5.00 a lb for solder at my scrap buyer and 3.00 a lb for copper. I am new to trying to even get the gold from stuff as I use to just scrap it for the copper now after finding this forum I have been processing to recover gold and silver which add to my
yield.


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## Harold_V (Mar 24, 2008)

Don't misunderstand my comments. I'm all in favor of recycling the traces of base metals. The problem is that it's not all that easily accomplished. Major refiners pay for copper when there's enough, but they also have the necessary equipment to deal with it economically, plus a ready market for the recovered materials. The home refiner isn't in that position, and isn't likely to be, due in part to the limited amount of metal recovered. 

The point I've made is that there is no market for copper that is recovered as sludge. Spending time and money on the material in order get it to market is a losing proposition. If it is melted, the cost of doing so will exceed the value. If it is washed well enough to eliminate traces of contamination, then melted, you are still in the same position, one whereby you have invested more time and money than the value of the copper. It makes more sense to discard the recovered copper than to spin your wheels screwing around with it. 

If any of the readers can come up with a source that is willing to buy the material, they should post the information here for all to see. That way the recovered copper could be kept in the supply pipeline. 

I found it most distasteful to send the two barrels of copper to the land fill, but I had no other option. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Mar 24, 2008)

I offered to buy copper but no one took me up on it. I have a waste oil fired burner and get the oil for free it only cost me time and a few cents for electricity to run the burner. I use fire clay to line a steel crucible to melt mixed copper alloys which keeps the steel from further contaminating the melt and the clay is cheap.

I currently melt fine wire from transformers and stuff netting a much higher price. The place I sell it to has some kind of sparking gun and they can tell the metal content in just a few minutes
even give you a print out. Scrap yards are really advancing from what I can tell and they even seem to be more honest in thier dealings.


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## lazersteve (Mar 24, 2008)

James,

What are you paying for the copper sludge and how pure and dry must it be before you'll buy it? Do you buy copper oxides and chlorides also?

Steve


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## Anonymous (Mar 24, 2008)

They would have to be dry to save on shipping, oxides do not pose much of a problem I however do not have the desire to mess with clorides.
I know that most of the processors on the forum have small quantities 
and offered as a recorse to prevent sending them to the landfill or dumping them down the drain. Price would be very negotiable depending on quanity and quality. I am open to speak with anyone and would reply to anyone that send me PM on the subject.


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## Swamp Fox (Mar 25, 2008)

Hi all, this is my first time posting, and even my first time visiting this forum. I am interested in everything everyone has been saying and hope I don't offend with anything I might say here. From what I've seen on the forums, Steve, Pd, and Harold are all very distinguished on this site and I have read many things that have shown them to have plenty of knowledge of refining.

I will say it here and now that I am 20 years old and a full time student and chemistry major. I understand some of the implications of the different disposal methods and refining methods listed in this forum (though I can't help but laugh at the idea of someone burning mercury when it isn't even used in most commercial thermometers today because of it's toxicity). 



> A quote from Harold: "How much time and money are you willing to spend on what amounts to a few dollars worth of copper?"



I don't know how much it would cost, having not done anything with refining yet, to go through the process of removing copper. I do understand and sympathize with someone wanting to reduce the impact they would create with dumping the copper, and if it doesn't cost more to remove the copper than it would to buy it I can see removing it to cut down on costs/impact. If the only thing you are losing is time, and refining is truly a hobby, then you really aren't losing much by doing this if you truly enjoy refining and take this to be just another part of the process.

Harold, I think I remember you posting a link in another thread that went to a site where people can buy the Hoke book. I can't remember which thread it was and don't have the link myself, but I would greatly appreciate it if you could post it again. I know that I would like to get a copy of this book, and I'm sure others would too. It might also be a good idea, since it is such a storehouse of refining knowledge that you have referred to multiple times, to include it here so that those of us who don't have a copy can read it.



> A quote from Steve "In short you can not skip the fundamentals and expect to make a leap forward in the technology of refining. Part of this learning process is learning good habits and that's what you can get from Hoke. You can also learn the differences in testing the various solutions as well as disposal techniques. Solution and substance identification makes up a good part of the science of refining. Without it you will be as lost as a blind man. Hoke teaches this technique also."





> A quote from Harold "Nonsense! Get a grip and come to terms with the idea that if you don't understand the basics, you, nor anyone else, will contribute to progress. If readers don't have a clue how to test for gold, or how to recover it, I'd be interested in hearing how they're going to make revolutionary changes in the chemistry of gold. We have professional people that work in chemistry on a daily basis----and I don't hear them touting revolutionary processes, yet you tell me that the common man is on the threshold of something new? Show me."



As a chemist I can say that I agree with Steve's statement, but i wouldn't limit it to just refining. I definitely have seen plenty of evidence that you need the fundamentals and understanding of those who have come before you (that is the whole reason and purpose of a university education, passing on the knowledge that has come before you). But I'm sorry Harold, it _is_ possible to go forward and find something new and worthwhile without all of the basics, though I will admit that it is infinitely easier to see and understand what you are doing with all of the basics. As you have stated though, it is the people who blaze ahead without waiting to listen to their guide that land in the quicksand pits and leopard dens, requiring those who have gone before them, or even the guide they ignored, to bail them out.

When I was in Boy Scouts preparing for a backpacking trip with another troop there was one person in the group who everyone else wanted as the "leader" or "guy in front". On our first time out hiking he and one other guy just took off without looking back. The rest of us went at our own pace and stopped after a half hour. We sat down and waited. It took another half hour for them to get back to us and they were raging mad. Had they not been together we would have sent someone ahead to stop them. One of the adults in the group knew the trail said that they couldn't get into much trouble yet. When they came back the whole group got lectured on what it means to be a leader and a follower. We were told that the leaders job is to do his/ her best to make sure everyone is doing alright and if someone has a problem the leader is supposed to address that problem. The follower's job is to make sure that (s)he has all of the knowledge and information they could possibly need, to ask questions of those who may know what they need, and make sure they are doing everything in their power to judge themselves and how they are doing. And it is the job of both the leader and the follower to make sure that the group stays together and works well together.

This story and idea I think can be applied to any situation. I know that there will be posts that upset me, just as some posts have upset Harold, myself, and even Steve to the point that Steve felt he had to defend Harold. I may be truly putting my foot in it this time, but as with the hiking analogy I made in the last paragraph I think that everyone would agree that this site is here to help the average and not average refiner. It took those guys who ran ahead of everyone an hour to realize something was wrong. Sometimes people need to make mistakes in order to see that they need to back up and slow down. But I also think that everyone can agree that things would work much better without any one person picking on another person. I think that this site is set upon the open source foundations that make it a great site. Those foundations though also open it up for easier attack by other people who can weaken the site without meaning to. If anyone on this site is jaded by comments directed at them or hurt by a comment and doesn't come back, then the site has lost a knowledge base. And it would be an even greater loss if it were a senior refiner who has alot of knowledge on the topic and is willing to share. things like what Froggy said:


> "stupid trick" "far from a clever idea".. a little grumpy this morning Harold?


Can be very hurtful to all of us, and if it was unintentional then that is alright, as long as it is acknowledged.

I can look back at the most influential, envied, and respected people in my life, and of all of the people I can think of the best ones, the ones at the top of the list, were the ones who did their thing and when asked would share why they did what they did. Recycling is a good example. One of my high school teachers was always keeping her bottles and cans in her office and would leave with them at the end of the day, would even collect empty bottles and cans she found in her classroom before the students could throw them away. after the students started learning why she did that they gave her all of their bottles and pop cans. Learning will come, and knowledge will spread. the method is important, not only for the recipient but especially for the person passing that knowledge on. It only hurts you to get angry at a forum post and rage at it and spend alot of time on it. Why not just acknowledge it, if it was a hurtful comment aimed at you, mention it, and if nothing happens let it go. don't forget it necessarily. just don't obsess over it. 

Harold, I think you have said more in praise to Hoke's book than anyone else on how it gives the necessary basics, and I know others like Steve have supported that. I have been looking all over this forum for a thread that will give step by step instructions or basics, and have seen many people start threads asking for such. But every time I found a thread that gave step by step instructions, it was not easy to follow what was going on because the person asking the question already had some background information, and the answer started from his/ her background knowledge and went forward. 

The best way I can see to go around this problem would be for someone to start a thread on a process from the beginning, or start a thread and post a link to a place to buy Hoke's book with information telling them that the book gives necessary basics and methods for refining. If anyone does this it would help for the subject to reflect the contents.

Anyway... I think I have been ranting enough myself... I'm sorry if I have offended anyone.

I feel Steve said it best:


> With that said feel free to post as you wish. Keep in mind that your audience is varied, from the ultra novice to the large refiner. Keep it clean and polite. Above all have a good time and share what you have learned.


javascript:emoticon('')
Very Happy


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## skyline27 (Mar 25, 2008)

Without a handful of knowledgable, experienced people who occasionaly quash dumb ideas, this site would be filled with dumb ideas and become completely useless. Everbody needs to be shot down every once in a while (especially if your idea is dangerous or destructive). 

Point blank feedback is far more effective than gentle suggestions.


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## Harold_V (Mar 25, 2008)

skyline27 said:


> Without a handful of knowledgable, experienced people who occasionaly quash dumb ideas, this site would be filled with dumb ideas and become completely useless. Everbody needs to be shot down every once in a while (especially if your idea is dangerous or destructive).
> 
> Point blank feedback is far more effective than gentle suggestions.


Indeed! And I thank you for understanding why I post things as I do. The subject of refining is not one where idiotic notions should be subtly discussed. There are times when a wake-up call is in order. If readers feel I'm quashing creativity, perhaps they should explore their position. I'm speaking from years of experience----and relating that which I have learned the hard way. 

One thing that few are taking into consideration is the fact that I am not an idle person with nothing to do. I dedicate a considerable amount of my time to this forum, all with no hope of a reward. I'm willing to do that until readers become abusive----at which time they are on their own. 

I do not suffer fools gladly---a fact I wish to make well known. I am here to help those that have an agenda of learning to refine precious metals with which I am familiar. The processes I endorse and instruct work----and are, in a sense, timeless. They will fulfill the need for basic knowledge and allow the average person to progress to the point of being able to compete with major refiners in quality. 

Those that desire to experiment are certainly welcome to do so, but it makes sense to me that they should know the basics of refining before embarking on improving processes known to work properly, particularly when they don't understand those very processes well enough to judge them appropriately. I find it troubling that a person that has no clue intends to make improvements. How would they know, even if they were successful? 

Swamp Fox, I know and understand that people often lend information to the knowledge pool, and may not be well versed in a given area. One such person was the Australian doctor that linked helicobacter pylori to common ulcers. He was ridiculed and set aside by his peers, having discovered the link by doing research outside his chosen field-----but the fact remains that he was not some dolt with no education. He understood physiology and medicine, thus was able to make informed decisions. I expect that would be the case in refining metals. It's hardly something new, with almost all processes having been tried long ago, by Rose. 

While common people have been known to come up with innovative concepts, I'm of the opinion that seldom does a person without a great deal of knowledge do so. Said another way, every person should walk before they attempt to run. That means learning the basics, so intelligent decisions can be concluded and applied. I have no faith in a person that can't refine, yet expects to make changes to something that is not understood. 

Hoke's book is not just a novelty----it provides the basic information that will help anyone that has the desire to process values to understand the principles of refining. It is the one and only text on the market that will help an individual that has no chemical background. Even you, Swamp Fox---with your extended education----will learn things you can't imagine. 

Most importantly, if frees up those of us that have experience so we can address problem areas instead of trying to teach the basics. I fully expect readers to meet me half way. I expect others that moderate do as well. They can do that by learning the basics. 

Here's one source for Hoke's book:

http://www.gesswein.com/catalog/catalog.cfm?cat=12&sub=3&subsub=59&catalog=1&CFID=1471004&CFTOKEN=30985426 

A recent report from a friend indicates they are out of stock, but should have books available in April. At this point, the book they offer is the least expensive available. It is a reprint, and contains all of the useful information that was contained in the original book. 

A second source, thanks to GSP, is;

The Hoke book, "Refining Precious Metal Wastes," is still the definitive book for refining jewelry scrap, including the platinum group. When I first started in the business, it was my bible. It's been reprinted and is available here for $74. Scroll down - fifth from the bottom.
http://www.ipmi.org/publications/index_non.cfm

The book in question is written by C.M. Hoke.

While it is intended, primarily, for jewelry scrap, the principles remain unchanged. Do not judge the book by its title. The information contained within can be applied across the board for all sources of values. 

Harold


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## Swamp Fox (Mar 25, 2008)

Hello again. Thank you Harold, and you too Skyline. I don't think I managed to say what I was aiming for very well, but I think you both did a good job of hitting the nail on the head. 

Thank you for posting the Hoke book links. I really appreciate it and I agree that people should meet you half way and try to learn the basics before they get started. I was trying to say that, though I do believe I got lost and lost everyone else in the stream of my writing.



> While common people have been known to come up with innovative concepts, I'm of the opinion that seldom does a person without a great deal of knowledge do so. Said another way, every person should walk before they attempt to run. That means learning the basics, so intelligent decisions can be concluded and applied. I have no faith in a person that can't refine, yet expects to make changes to something that is not understood.



I agree with this totally, and don't think I was disagreeing with you here either.

Again, thanks for the Hoke book link.javascript:emoticon(':wink:')
Wink


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## Swamp Fox (Mar 25, 2008)

> Even you, Swamp Fox---with your extended education----will learn things you can't imagine.



I's also just like to say that I was not trying to toot a horn that I don't have, I was giving everyone the information they would need to take what i say at the value that it is worth. 

I know that having not done any refining yet my opinions of such processes are non existent. I was not trying to insult you Harold or say that the little education I have in chemistry gives me any edge over the common man. I know that it doesn't, especially when that common man is someone who, like yourself, has many years of experience past mine.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, and I was especially not trying to offend you Harold. I hope you can accept my apology in this because I can't really explain it in any other way than saying I'm sorry.javascript:emoticon('')


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## istari9 (Mar 26, 2008)

I see copper in a different light .. IE If copper is involved in the manufacture of an item say a Floppy drive then I remove it from all locations and if need be unwind it and rewind it, into small balls of copper, this I place in a can and store until I have enough to sell. I save all small motors and windings from power supply’s and motherboards. These are also removed from their housings and saved for the future sale. In my past I have made at times large sums form these small endeavors. Last month I sold 9 boxes of HD's and #1common (wire with the plastic still intact no connectors) these are small boxes that had med equip in them. Any way I got $200.00 for the effort. This compared to the $12.50 I made on scrap steel well I am sure you can see the difference... 

Ray


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## Harold_V (Mar 26, 2008)

Swamp Fox said:


> > Even you, Swamp Fox---with your extended education----will learn things you can't imagine.
> 
> 
> 
> I's also just like to say that I was not trying to toot a horn that I don't have, I was giving everyone the information they would need to take what i say at the value that it is worth.



Ahh! A complete breakdown in understanding!  

I took no offense. I am simply stating that even with an extensive education in chemistry, a person may not well understand the mechanics of refining. In my case, I clearly don't understand the chemical equations that explain the reactions, but I know the mechanics of refining quite well. I know what to do, and when to do it. 

I have a step brother-in-law that is a professor of chemistry in one of the well known eastern (to me) universities. He commented, years ago, that he was lost in what I did, although he understood the chemistry involved. His field is catalysis. 



> I was not trying to insult you Harold or say that the little education I have in chemistry gives me any edge over the common man. I know that it doesn't, especially when that common man is someone who, like yourself, has many years of experience past mine.



I didn't interpret your comments thus, either. I was making reference to the idea that a common person -----any person-----is unlikely to revolutionize gold refining. It's an old art and has been well researched by very brilliant people (Sir T.K. Rose, for one), so there's not much that hasn't been tried. I realize there's room for expansion, but just like the gold that has been found and recovered to this point has been easy, so to is the knowledge that we embrace. Any new knowledge is likely to come from revolutionary thinking, from people with extraordinary skills and talents, and a solid, fundamental knowledge of chemistry and physics. I don't hold out much hope for the average guy to revolutionize gold processing. 

Fact is, the "new" work-around methods being promoted here are anything but new----they are old, fundamental processes, likely used before commercially prepared acids were available. My hat's off to those that have done recent research and made the information available. I don't mean to belittle the process, or diminish, in any way, their effectiveness and usefulness. Quite the contrary. 



> I was especially not trying to offend you Harold. I hope you can accept my apology in this because I can't really explain it in any other way than saying I'm sorry.javascript:emoticon('')



No apology necessary! I took your words as those of a brilliant young man that has an opinion, based on good fundamentals. I respect your opinion, and your right to have one. I took no offense. 

Now I want to preach to you. Stay with your education. I'll never cease to wonder where I might have gone had I had the drive to get educated. 

Don't misunderstand my comments. I am not unhappy with the results of my life. I founded and ran two successful businesses, and made a decent living. I have a wonderful wife that has stood by my side for more than 30 years, and has been a good and faithful companion and soul mate. 

I was in complete control of my life from the time I founded my first business, at the age of 28. I retired before I was 55, and have a comfortable life, although I am not wealthy. Still, I have those nagging questions of where I might have gone with an education. I may have had the courage to write a book about gold refining-----or perhaps machining, which was my main livelihood. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Mar 26, 2008)

istari9 said:


> I see copper in a different light .. IE If copper is involved in the manufacture of an item say a Floppy drive then I remove it from all locations and if need be unwind it and rewind it, into small balls of copper, this I place in a can and store until I have enough to sell.


Heh!

You and I must be cut from the same bolt of cloth, Ray. 

In the past three years, I've had two power supplies die in my computer. I do my own repairs, as long as they're basic and fundamental enough for me to diagnose the problem with no equipment (in both cases, the magic smoke that makes the power supplies work got out, so it was obvious where the problem was). 

I dismantled both of the old power supplies and removed all the copper wire from the transformers and chokes, adding it to my supply of copper and copper based alloys. I intend to do casting in brass and bronze in the future, so any scrap that I can add to the kitty (which is now overflowing with a few hundred pounds of metal) is welcome. 

Keeping this in line with refining-----if guys would store their incinerated filters and other low grade wastes, they'd be surprised at the values that would accumulate. If you save enough pennies, you soon have a dollar. :wink: 

Harold


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## istari9 (Mar 26, 2008)

Amen Brother!


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## Swamp Fox (Mar 27, 2008)

> Now I want to preach to you. Stay with your education. I'll never cease to wonder where I might have gone had I had the drive to get educated.
> 
> Don't misunderstand my comments. I am not unhappy with the results of my life. I founded and ran two successful businesses, and made a decent living. I have a wonderful wife that has stood by my side for more than 30 years, and has been a good and faithful companion and soul mate.
> 
> I was in complete control of my life from the time I founded my first business, at the age of 28. I retired before I was 55, and have a comfortable life, although I am not wealthy. Still, I have those nagging questions of where I might have gone with an education. I may have had the courage to write a book about gold refining-----or perhaps machining, which was my main livelihood.



Thanks for the advice. I do know that what you have outlined is much of what I would like to know in my life: Make a decent living (being enough to get by on without being excessive) and have a wife or relationship as fulfilling as yours. If not that then at least a small group of true friends, I already know two or three people who I will consider the best of friends for the rest of my life, and who I trust feel the same for me. I don't think many people truly want more than that if they look deep enough. 

I will definitely keep up the education though!!!! javascript:emoticon('')


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## Harold_V (Mar 27, 2008)

Swamp Fox said:


> at least a small group of true friends, I already know two or three people who I will consider the best of friends for the rest of my life, and who I trust feel the same for me. I don't think many people truly want more than that if they look deep enough.


In my early years of the machine shop I founded and operated, I did considerable sub-contract work from a larger shop in Salt Lake City. I lived in one of the small cities that surround SL to the south. 

Employed at that facility was a high-roller named Ben Preece, who was in charge of procurement for the shop, Waeco, now defunct. I recall him telling me that if a person, in a lifetime, could count all his friends on one hand, he was very wealthy. I believe that to be true. 

You're a fortunate young man! 

Incidentally, Ben was killed in a car crash not too long afterwards. 

It's a pleasure having you on the board, Swamp Fox.

Harold


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## Swamp Fox (Mar 27, 2008)

Thank you very much Harold! I know I haven't been here long, and I don't know how many friends you have, but from what I have seen you are a very fortunate man with your life as well as a very intelligent and honest man. I am honored that you think so highly of me and hope I don't ever disappoint you in that assessment.

Thanks again

Chris javascript:emoticon('')


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## geubrina (Mar 27, 2008)

Hi Everybody,

From different perceptive, I must said that if I can take out the copper as by product, actually I am saving for cash.

for example, if for each gram of gold I can refine, I can have let's say 100 gram of copper, then the copper is 50 or 100 kg, I can sell it at USD 250 or USD 500, here at scrap collector. (I am thinking of extracting gold out of copper rich ore). Maybe the calculation is different?

The most important thing is how to precipitate the copper at lower cost. You have idea, friends? I believe Harold, PG, Silvernitrate and all others have good idea about this.


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## Platdigger (Mar 27, 2008)

Silvernitrate, do you know if it would be possible to use your Caustic Syurp method on copper solutions?
To reduce them to metal I mean........
Randy


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## Gotrek (Mar 27, 2008)

geubrina said:


> Hi Everybody,
> 
> 
> The most important thing is how to precipitate the copper at lower cost. You have idea, friends? I believe Harold, PG, Silvernitrate and all others have good idea about this.



I believe what Harold is saying(again) and has said multiple times is that no one will Take nevermind Buy the copper by-product of gold refining.

And refining the copper in order to melt/press it into pure copper bars is out of reach for the hom refiner.


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## SilverNitrate (Mar 27, 2008)

Platdigger said:


> Silvernitrate, do you know if it would be possible to use your Caustic Syurp method on copper solutions?
> To reduce them to metal I mean........
> Randy



No. I would reccommend just using iron (ferrous steel) to precip it out.
The caustic syurp on copper solution will make and stay as a copper oxide.


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## geubrina (Mar 27, 2008)

I found a kind of ore, that has contained of copper (20%), Fe, Ag and Au. This sulphide type of stone.

I've been looking for a way to take out the precious metals out of this ore.
So, what I am doing here is first to grind the stone to powder. Heat it (get rid of the major S content), then magnetically take out the iron.

After that, I pour the HNO3 to take out the remaining Fe, Cu and Ag. Decant the solution into another glassware, wash the left over, and then put Aqua Regia to dissolve the gold in the remaining solid. Then precipitate the gold with Sodium metabisulphide.

Then, precipitate the Ag, with NaCl.
Then, precipitate the Cu, with ??? 

For this whole process, can you kindly give me another option for the process? I learned this from a friend who traditionally extract the gold from ore. This is so simple Chemical, I think. I have to upgrade myself. Pls guidance, friends.


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## Harold_V (Mar 28, 2008)

geubrina said:


> Then, precipitate the Cu, with ???


That's very simple. Simply place the solution in a plastic barrel with some scrap steel. The copper will precipitate on the scrap steel, which in turn will go into solution as the copper is precipitated. 

Here in the US, there is no ready market for copper that is recovered by that method, but if you have a large enough furnace that will tolerate fluxing, you can melt the copper and cast ingots. The ingots would have no less than scrap copper value. Bringing the copper fine would be more trouble than it is worth unless you had a large amount and could justify a copper cell.

Harold


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## geubrina (Mar 28, 2008)

Harold_V said:


> geubrina said:
> 
> 
> > Then, precipitate the Cu, with ???
> ...



Thanks, Harold.
Is it possible to put the cheapest iron instead of steel?
I have no experiment nor knowledge at all for smelting the copper ore. Is it just merely increase the heat until the melting point?

Yes, here, we can sell even 1 or 2 kg of copper metal to the scrap collector. Cheaper than LME price, off course.

Regarding my process of the Au and Ag, do you have any better idea?


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## Harold_V (Mar 28, 2008)

geubrina said:


> Thanks, Harold.
> Is it possible to put the cheapest iron instead of steel?


We may be tripping over terminology here, geubrina. When I say scrap steel, I'm talking about such things as angle iron, channel iron, pretty much any type of fabrication steel. Even rebar will work. Iron, such as cast iron, is not a good choice. The only thing that is important is that the metal not be too rusty. Rusted steel won't work. 



> I have no experiment nor knowledge at all for smelting the copper ore. Is it just merely increase the heat until the melting point?


If you're talking about copper ore, I'm not able to help. I am not a chemist, nor have I studied metallurgy. My experiences have all come either as a machinist, or as a self taught precious metal refiner. 

Extracting copper by fire is likely to be a losing proposition unless you can concentrate the values, you have a rather large furnace, and have means to part the copper afterwards. It will contain all the precious metal values. 

The copper that you'd recover from solution, using scrap steel, is elemental copper, but it's finely divided, and often quite dirty, plus it will be well oxidized. It requires considerable fluxing in order for it to flow and agglomerate when melted, but once melted and collected, it's not bad copper. It will contain impurities, so it isn't real good for direct use, but it can surely be sold once cast as an ingot. It's not economical to do here in the States, but only because of high labor costs and the amount of damage the flux does to crucibles. It shortens their useful life tremendously. If you have an economical method of melting, it is definitely worth the trouble. 



> Regarding my process of the Au and Ag, do you have any better idea?


I had only one experience with gold ores, one that was very high in content. I used a ball mill to crush the ore fine, then ran it with cyanide in an agitation tank. I recovered the values (both gold and silver) using zinc flour. The ore was a complex, requiring the use of bromine, along with cyanide. I achieved an extraction of well over 99%. I hesitate to make any recommendations because that was my only experience, and the process may or may not lend itself to your operation. I am unable to judge if it would, or not. 

One thing I am willing to comment on. I don't recall reading a single source of information that recommends the extraction of values from ores using acid. The gangue is typically very destructive of the acids employed, so it becomes quite inefficient. By sharp contrast, if an ore has no cyanicides, a ton of ore can usually be processed using as little as an ounce of sodium or potassium cyanide. It is best used in a very dilute concentration (.01-.02%), where it becomes selective and will dissolve only the values, leaving behind the base metals. 

You likely know cyanide is dealy poisonous to animals (including humans), and should not be used unless you are well versed on handling and proper disposal. 

You might be well off to find a copy of Rose's book which I recall to be titled The Chemistry of Gold, Sir T.K. Rose. It might prove to be very helpful for you. 

Harold


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## geubrina (Mar 28, 2008)

Thanks Harold.

For separating your gold from silver (or vice versa), you do not use acid, either?

I will try to find the book. Is the English difficult to read? English is not my mother tounge.

Anyway, thanks again. I hope there are others who would like to share their experiences with me, for comparison. Learning never end...


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## Harold_V (Mar 28, 2008)

geubrina said:


> For separating your gold from silver (or vice versa), you do not use acid, either?


Yes, I used nitric acid in all of my refining, but separating silver from gold is a lot different from taking metals out of ores. That's a whole different world----with methods used that often are not remotely related to refining. People that know how to refine may not know the processes of extracting values from ores. They often operate as totally different entities. Depending on the size of an operation, a smelter may well send his yield to a different source for refining. 



> I will try to find the book. Is the English difficult to read? English is not my mother tounge.


I understand. It might be difficult for someone that doesn't speak English fluently----but the book is likely one of the finest texts written on gold. It is very old----about 100 years old now. It's entirely possible that the book has been printed in your mother language. You might check at one of your local libraries, or higher schools of learning. Universities and colleges are often a source of such books. Being an old text, many of the processes that are discussed are simple to do--there is nothing high tech about the information contained in the book, so it's right down the alley of people that are limited to simple processes. I assume that would be your circumstances. They sure were mine! 



> Anyway, thanks again. I hope there are others who would like to share their experiences with me, for comparison. Learning never end...


You're very welcome, geubrina. I hope some of this has been helpful. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2008)

Harold have you checked the price that copper is going for on ebay?
I think that I may have to start casting pretty bars and putting them on
ebay.

11 oz for 13.00 +, plus 15.00 shipping.


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## Harold_V (Mar 29, 2008)

james122964 said:


> Harold have you checked the price that copper is going for on ebay?
> I think that I may have to start casting pretty bars and putting them on
> ebay.
> 
> 11 oz for 13.00 +, plus 15.00 shipping.


I can't be held responsible for morons that have no concept of real value. Anyone that would pay $13 for 11 ounces of copper likely deserves his fate. It's the price you pay for going through life with blinders firmly affixed. 

Having worked in the machining industry for the vast majority of my life, I know all too well that a person can go to a supply house and buy electrolytic pure copper, in desirable forms, for far less. 

In life, there are options you can exercise as an individual. One of them is to not steal from your neighbors. I choose not to. Selling copper for such prices would make it hard for me to sleep. I've never had to be dishonest to make a living, a fact about which I'm damned proud. 

Selling copper at inflated prices isn't in the books for me. Sorry. It's all about the value I place on myself----and the values I try to uphold. Understand, I'm simply speaking for myself. I realize others have different value systems. 

Sure is tempting, though! :lol: 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2008)

Harold, gold is no different, it is only worth what people are willing to pay for it.


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## Harold_V (Mar 29, 2008)

Yep I agree----But that's not what we're talking about when someone quotes a price of $13 for 11 ounces of copper. If you want copper bad enough, you can buy from a recognized source and get it for far less than $18.91/lb.. Same thing applies to gold-----if a person is serious about owning gold, it can be had for prices that reflect spot, with a small fee for the transaction. One need not spend 300% of value to buy the metal. 

Frankly, show up at my door with cash, and I'll sell you gold for spot today, assuming it's pre-arranged and I have time to retrieve the metal from the vault where it's stored. I not only preach, I do as I preach. 

Unlike many people, I didn't look at everything from the perspective of how much money I could make when I was engaged in refining. I refined gold because I wanted to OWN gold, and that was illegal when I first got started. That, of course, quickly changed, when on January 1, 1975, the gold reserve act was repealed. 

One of the things I did when I refined was sell gold to my customers. I sold not only my gold, but excess gold from customers that did a lot of repair work, but not much manufacturing. That kind of customer tends to accumulate gold, whereas those that manufacture are selling it far faster than it accumulates in their wastes, so they're in the market for new metal constantly. 

I sold gold for spot. The seller received spot when he sold, and the buyer paid spot, with me acting as the middle man, all without a fee. To insure that the customers knew the exact price, I had the buyer make his check payable to the seller, and delivered the exchange to both parties. It was my way of providing customer service, amongst many other benefits. You have to be smart to survive in the refining field, and not *do* your customers. Bad words travel far faster than the good ones do. 

This was one of the many strategies I employed in accumulating customers, and keeping them loyal to my operation. Under most circumstances, rarely can a person sell gold for spot, and rarely can a person buy it for spot. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2008)

Your business practices served you well and your morals seem to be in the right place. I was mearly stating that the seller did not set the price he is only accepting what someone has offer him. He did not plate the metal with gold or do anything to try and conseal the fact that it was only copper. 

Also remember spot is set by someones offer on the open market which is what posting on ebay or other auctions is. There is nothing wrong or morally suspect with that, provided there is no seller deception.

I wish I knew why auctions on ebay are so squed, usually in my experience at auctions it is the seller taking a bath do to bad circumstances or other reasons.


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## SilverNitrate (Mar 29, 2008)

Those people buying copper bricks on eBay are buying it because it is a oddity, just a novel item. Surely people aren't buying because its an investment. 
I regularly buy all copper pennies even Canadian cents, and generally pay face or just a small percentage over. I buy because I want to hoarde the copper. heck, I'll buy copper from scavengers (provided its good clean) 
As for those bars, people should take the 3#s or so out of those old PC monitors or go down to the local Home Depot and buy a few feet of copper pipes.
As investment copper is worth its weight in copper, true it'll be worth more as 999fine copper over 95% copper/5%tin and zinc. Krugerrand gold coins are 92% gold 8% copper and its scrap price is based on the gold content.


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## skyline27 (Mar 29, 2008)

Does anybody know where I can buy copper ingots?


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## Lou (Mar 29, 2008)

A variety of places, most of them have their own fabrication ''fees''. You don't get copper for spot value unless you get tons of it.

I suggest you fine some old scrap electrolytic wire and melt it. You can make pretty nice bars if you melt it carefully--granted, they won't be anywhere as good as what you'd get if they were induction melted.


Lou


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## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2008)

Sky how many do you want? I will be firing up the furnace in a couple of weeks. I should have over 100lb worth melted from desolder pipe, 18 gauge and smaller wire, also should have some brass as that is were the
mixed copper goes.

I normally cast the copper into trolly wire blanks but it would be easy enough to cast bars. I use oil bonded green sand for molding.


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## Swamp Fox (Mar 29, 2008)

> I was mearly stating that the seller did not set the price he is only accepting what someone has offer him. He did not plate the metal with gold or do anything to try and conseal the fact that it was only copper.





> I wish I knew why auctions on ebay are so squed, usually in my experience at auctions it is the seller taking a bath do to bad circumstances or other reasons.



I think that if you look at e-bay prices on just about anything you will get a wide range that will not really represent the true price of what you are looking at. Just now, I went to the site and did a search under gold bullion and people are selling gold at anywhere between 200 and 2000 dollars per ounce! Part of the problem with e-bay is that people selling on e-bay and people buying on e-bay don't always research into what they are buying very well.

So yes, the seller is accepting a price set by someone else who is buying from him, but it all depends on how the customer does his research and what experience he has with what he is buying. I know I wouldn't pay 2000 dollars for gold, but people do. The question then is whether it is right to be selling items at such inflated prices. Many people think that if someone is willing to pay the price then it is fair.

Whichever thought camp you tent in is up to you. Just make sure that whatever you do you can live with yourself and sleep well at night. I am not advocating either side (though I personally consider myself to be on the side of spot over inflated or deflated prices), I am just saying that if you have doubts you should look into the situation and examine what you believe so that you can decide and wipe away your indecision.

Peace all!

Chris


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## istari9 (Mar 29, 2008)

I make copper for another use in welding. When there is a wider then normal gap, if copper is placed behind the gap, weld metal can be applied over the copper to fill said gap. When the copper cools it will drop off with a light tap. I have done this using oxy/acl, mig, tig, and arc. The copper needs to be heavy enough to withstand the heat and act as the back plate. I have weled light metal such as auto body and heavy as in 2" thick material.

Ray


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## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2008)

the copper dosen't interfer or weeken the weld?


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## Anonymous (Apr 10, 2008)

Just something to chew on. I run a scrap yard here in western newyork. If someone had this copper dust available near me I would definatley buy it. I would mix it in with copper bearing material such as electric motors and electrical boxes with the fuses and breakers and such still in it. Perhaps there is a level of toxic materials from this copper dust that would make this a bad idea i do not know.

Andrew

"insert witty oneliner"


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## Froggy (Apr 10, 2008)

Check out the prices on ebay for the aluminum bars :shock: :shock: especially the ones that are finished... geez, woder if I can do the same with wood,, one kilo wood bar, highly polished and hand stamped, $100 bucks!! Someone would buy it I'm sure!!!!


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## Art Corbit (Apr 18, 2008)

What happens if you are doing computer scrap with AR and you already have a bunch of copper dissolved in with the gold? I have never been able to drop my gold without dropping all the other junk with it. Is there a way to drop the copper first without dropping the gold and then drop the gold later? Or drop the gold without dropping the copper?

Art


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## Art Corbit (Apr 18, 2008)

The only true value Gold or anything else has is determined by how well it will serve mankind. If you have a steel plow you can use it for years to plow the ground. If that same plow was made out of pure Gold it wouldn't last a week. In this situation the steel is worth a lot more to man than the gold. Steel will simply serve man a lot better to do the job he wishes to use it for. The beauty of Gold has nothing to do with it's true value to man. 

Art


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## junkelly (Apr 18, 2008)

Art Corbit said:


> Is there a way to drop the copper first without dropping the gold and then drop the gold later? Or drop the gold without dropping the copper?
> 
> Art



You may have a candidate for the use of butyl diglyme. I do not have hands on experience with this process - do a search for info. If you don't have this on hand, it will probably be easier to use SMB to drop the gold with the junk, and then re- refine.

Hopefully you know or will soon learn the benefits of eliminating base metals before putting gold into solution, and this will be the last batch you have to salvage in such a way.

-junkelly


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## Anonymous (Apr 18, 2008)

Art, SMB is what most guys use to drop the gold. You have to get rid of the nitric first. If you have to do it ruff and tumble just keep adding copper and eventually it will displace your gold and leave most other metals other than silver in solution.

If you must use nitric use nitric alone that will dissolve the base metals and leave your gold, then you filter and wash the gold before using AR.

I am sure that others that have way more experience with help guide you soon, I would however read, read, read it is all here just waiting to be found.


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## Art Corbit (Apr 18, 2008)

Hi James,

I'm not having a problem with the computer gold it's some ore I ran onto. It has some copper, iron, silver and God only knows what else. I tried the nitric on it but it would take too much of it. The metals in the ore eats the Nitric up real quick. I was going to do it like I do the computer gold and then use the SSN on it but that didn't work.

Art


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## SilverNitrate (Apr 19, 2008)

Art Corbit said:


> What happens if you are doing computer scrap with AR and you already have a bunch of copper dissolved in with the gold? I have never been able to drop my gold without dropping all the other junk with it. Is there a way to drop the copper first without dropping the gold and then drop the gold later? Or drop the gold without dropping the copper?
> 
> Art


This the same as refining karat jewelry. simply throw in some nitrite and your gold will fall out instantly! or boil with ketone and it'll do the same. However dangerous fumes are evolved when doing this and you should verse yourself on the cautions of NO2 and acyl chlorides.


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## Swamp Fox (Apr 21, 2008)

> The only true value Gold or anything else has is determined by how well it will serve mankind. If you have a steel plow you can use it for years to plow the ground. If that same plow was made out of pure Gold it wouldn't last a week. In this situation the steel is worth a lot more to man than the gold. Steel will simply serve man a lot better to do the job he wishes to use it for. The beauty of Gold has nothing to do with it's true value to man.
> 
> Art



I would disagree. The value of gold is based on its scarcity and (historically anyway) it's chemical properties that made it relatively un-reactive and hence a viable option for a monetary base. The value of gold in this manner has held it's value and is why gold is considered a good investment since paper currencies fluctuate in their value. 

I do agree that a gold plow would be essentially useless for plowing, but I'd take a gold plow over a steel one any day and just use the gold in the plow to buy a steel one. It is not that steel serves man any better than gold, it is more a matter of how the different metals serve mankind that you were looking at here.

And about the ore thing, from what I've gathered the forum here doesn't have many people (at least who are active in the forum) that are refining ores. Mainly this site is recovery based, so computers and jewelry, not ores and mining wastes.

Good luck finding what you need to refine your ores though! And I hope I helped with the value thing. If you want to talk more on it maybe start a thread in the general chat section and include a link in a post here.
:wink:

Chris


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## Shecker (Apr 23, 2008)

Personally I keep the copper that I recover as a secondary product. When smelting pgms to Dore I use it as as collector to reduce the melting point of high temperature metals. Works for me and leasves no copper laying around or being discharged to the environment.

Randy in Gunnison


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## Swamp Fox (Apr 23, 2008)

And about ores, while I don't suggest it because it is so dangerous, cyanide has been used for refining ores for decades, but again, I don't recommend it because of it's hazards for your health and the environment.

Again, good luck


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