# Nitric acid: soon to be prohibited in the EU



## a_bab (Aug 4, 2013)

In the never-ending fight against idiots who like to blow themselves up for (how many?) virgins in the afterlife a new EU regulation is soon to kick in.
Unfortunately nitric acid is considered an explosive precursor.

There are other chems affected by this new regulation (any transaction with these should be reported): potassium/sodium nitrate (good for making nitric acid), sodium chlorate(Pd refining), hydrogen peroxide >12%, sulfuric acid.

In short, the regulation will enter into force from 2'nd of September 2014 (a year from now on).
The possession, manufacture, use of nitric acid of more then 3% will be *completely forbidden starting from 2 March 2016.*
This will basically mean no more home refining since as an amateur nobody will be able to get it anymore as a member of general public. 

After the 2 of March 2016 trying to get nitric acid will make you a potential terrorist unless you'll have licenses coming out of your ears.

The regulation: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexplus!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=EN&numdoc=32013R0098


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## NobleMetalWorks (Aug 4, 2013)

I imagine much the same will end up happening in the USA. All it really means though is that you have to have a legal business and a legitimate reason for purchasing certain chemicals/acids. Is it very difficult to establish a business in the EU so that you can legally purchase these items?

Scott


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## 9kuuby9 (Aug 4, 2013)

Ouch; very bad news unfortunately.

I guess We can forget every process that involves HNO3... and so Ag too!

I think we might be able to come up whit a legal manner to process our precious metals.


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## chlaurite (Aug 4, 2013)

Beautiful! Because _naturally_, morons can't _possibly_ make things that go "boom" without nitric acid or nitrates.

Heh, I seriously wonder how many of the wannabe-shrapnel crowd even try to make their own explosives, rather than just buying black powder (or pyrocellulose, more likely).

Personally, I think we should encourage them to *try*! We'll have a lot fewer successful bombings, along with no need to go through an expensive trial to deal with them afterward. :twisted:

Oh, and we can forget about farming too, 9kuuby9. Good luck getting crops to grow on liquid ammonia.


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## 9kuuby9 (Aug 4, 2013)

chlaurite said:


> Beautiful! Because _naturally_, morons can't _possibly_ make things that go "boom" without nitric acid or nitrates.
> 
> Heh, I seriously wonder how many of the wannabe-shrapnel crowd even try to make their own explosives, rather than just buying black powder (or pyrocellulose, more likely).
> 
> ...



All sucessful bombings are *goverment* _financed_ and _planned_ and they paste the name "Islam" (propaganda) on top of it, what a dirty game :lol: 

Those unsucessful ones are very very rare to happen and those are idiots that plan those.

They really want to make us a world wide nation of slavery; Farming is way too inportant! Oh well I guess Monsanto could sell you some seeds that are ammonia resistant :lol:


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## Gratilla (Aug 4, 2013)

At this rate all serious small refiners will be emigrating to Indonesia!

Con nitric, hydrochloric, sulphuric acids (no problem); sodium/potassium cyanide (shop around), etc, etc.

Although I have to admit that when I tried to source ammonium nitrate (to try blowing up some tree stumps) from our local fertilizer shops/farmers' co-ops, I was unsuccessful. That one IS on the terrorist black list here.


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## Woodworker1997 (Aug 4, 2013)

Just goes to show the total idiocy of having UNIONS!
Derek.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 4, 2013)

Woodworker1997 said:


> Just goes to show the total idiocy of having UNIONS!
> Derek.



And what unions do have with this? I would say opposite is the cause - capitalism at its finest.
It is more of recycling business being concentrated in the hands of few. It is lucrative so why not to push small guys out with handy new legislation. :twisted:


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## solar_plasma (Aug 5, 2013)

They have forgotten to prohibit NaCl and thereby prohibit the oceans. Not to forget air. Stupidity has no limits. But then I am sure Montsanto et al. will soon provide the world with artificial and "harmless" substitutes for NaCl and air too. Urination should be restricted and monitored, - it is the production of several precursors and pre-precursors,too.


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## solar_plasma (Aug 5, 2013)

Those are the times I meant when I said, who knows, under altered conditions the worst refining methods may become the only accessable. Time for inventing a new wheel.


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## pbeverley82 (Mar 26, 2014)

I know this is an old thread, but I'm new and only just read this... Surely there's gotta be a way around all this for us in England and the rest of Europe? I've only just started and already I'm gonna have to give it up?


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## necromancer (Mar 26, 2014)

Basement Chemistry

caveman chemistry

no one can stop old world knowledge.


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## GotTheBug (Mar 26, 2014)

Nitric is semi-easy to make if you have the right "stuff". At the risk of suffering Harold's banhammer I'll leave it at that.


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## pbeverley82 (Mar 27, 2014)

Ok, I understand it's a touchy subject, so after the following question, I'll leave it be. Is this something I can find in a text book somewhere? I'm guessing so...


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## butcher (Mar 27, 2014)

Nitrates have always been important to governments, and farmers, sometimes in history farmers were taxed, to pay for their tax with nitrates, they produced on their farms.


Although not easy, any farmer can produce nitrates, and thus he can make nitric acid, sulfuric acid can also be made from sulfur or sulfide rock, again not an easy task.

So the cave man can make his own nitric acid. 
But it would be much easier to find another source for these acids, or reagents you need in recovery and refining.

The forum has discussed many different ways to make or get these reagents or acids, even the caveman's methods (nitrates, sulfuric, nitric...).


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## Dave86 (Aug 16, 2014)

I have just very (very) briefly skimmed that. Where does it say these substances are banned, or that special licensing is needed? Seems like they have a duty to report suspicious purchases, but why would this prevent any refiner from purchasing nitric acid? If you are refining gold and consider yourself to be a member of the public, then just declare yourself a sole trader - then you're a professional. I would expect most to be sole traders anyway, if they are making any money, as otherwise they would be *tax evaders*.


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## Anonymous (Aug 16, 2014)

Dave there is a major problem with that. 

If you declare yourself as a sole trader for refining then you will open up a whole pandora's box. The world of pain that will descend upon you from the Environment agency, and the sheer cost involved in conforming to, and paying for licences, will be diabolical.

Personally I'd suggest laying out some cash this month on a whole load of Nitric.


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## Irons (Aug 16, 2014)

Here again, refining will become the sole domain of a few wealthy elites. Any time the Serfs get their foot in the door, someone cuts off their leg.

There's always inquartation and Ralph's Silver cell, to at least get the Gold pure enough to get a fair return from the refiners.


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## Dave86 (Aug 16, 2014)

spaceships said:


> Dave there is a major problem with that.
> 
> If you declare yourself as a sole trader for refining then you will open up a whole pandora's box. The world of pain that will descend upon you from the Environment agency, and the sheer cost involved in conforming to, and paying for licences, will be diabolical.
> 
> Personally I'd suggest laying out some cash this month on a whole load of Nitric.



Thanks for the reply spaceships. 

But does that not depend on what you are refining? I know about the WEEE regulations, but what about jewellery and/or dental scrap? I'm not currently refining, I buy carat scrap at the moment, but I am thinking about it. Any information on UK regulations would be helpful for me at this point.


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## justinhcase (Aug 16, 2014)

I find the hole way people try to control naturally occurring molecules hilarious.
nitrates in particular is a source of constant amusement,every time I am in the Loo at the Pub I giggle as I am producing what was at one time one of the most valuable resources in the country.
In the past before they learned how to make ammonia and Nitrates for them self's people use to go around competing for and even killing to get hold of the effluent from Moistener's and Inn's.
The term "Taking the Piss " was an actual action where some one has stolen a very valuable commodity and run off,it was vital and controlled for the defense of the realm and preventing up starts from making there own munition's 
So in a very real way governments are still taking the "Urine",Well our nitrate based compound's and acids so some thing never change.


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## Anonymous (Aug 16, 2014)

Dave, metal refining is refining as far as the EA are concerned, regardless of the source of the metals. I'm pretty sure we are allowed to do it as a hobby without regulation, however as soon as you stick a commercial label on it the rules change massively.


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## Dave86 (Aug 16, 2014)

I'm trawling through documents trying to find something on this, but to no avail. Found a bit about 'melting metals', but nothing about precious metals in particular. It may be the case that a permit is needed, and it would seem prudent to check anyway, but I don't see why this would necessarily be cost-prohibitive. I work in a rubber factory and we vent rubber fumes into the atmosphere, which contain lots of unpleasant chemicals - we've had the local Council sniffing around a few times, but we always do what they say and that seems to satisfy them.


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## Palladium (Aug 16, 2014)

Make no mistake. They are coming after the precious metals. They have the paper market controld already. Now they want to physical.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 16, 2014)

I would rather say that they have paper market crumbling so they need to go after physical.


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## danieldavies (Aug 17, 2014)

I bet the retailers of these chemicals will put up a good fight. They will probably be the one's that lose out the most.


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## Palladium (Aug 17, 2014)

They want lose out any. Anytime you restrict access the price of the item will rise to compensate it. Supply and demand!


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## Anonymous (Aug 22, 2014)

well I did my homework and got 400L of nitric today before the restrictions came in so that pretty much absolves us of worrying.


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## Pharaoh (Aug 23, 2014)

NobleMetalWorks said:


> I imagine much the same will end up happening in the USA. All it really means though is that you have to have a legal business and a legitimate reason for purchasing certain chemicals/acids. Is it very difficult to establish a business in the EU so that you can legally purchase these items?
> 
> Scott


Hello, I am new to the forum, though I had my deals of businesses in Italy [part of UE]
and yes it is quite a thing to open a business around here, though first I am speaking from the country that had invented burocracy and has pretty complicated issues on it.
It is hard because we have to pay taxes depending on the amount of money we make and to verify that we need permissions for every business and you need other certificates that are related to your business beacause the financial police will control all of your permits and certificates before allowing you to open any kind of business. That is not all the complicacy, you need to have "Bussines Tax-insurance" that cost about 5,000 euros to open and also all 200+square meters constructions used for a business must have permits of consonance has commercial structure and the further you go the more complicacy burocracy will pull out around here, it isn'y quite hard to open it is more spendious[it costs a lot] and also the financial police will question any dnagerous material you purchase that is not related to your bussines. So even if you have an Ice-Cream shop and buy acids the police well.. here they don't do much about it though you may get a pretty high fine.


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## Grelko (Jan 29, 2016)

Bumping this for a very good reason. Please read the first post.


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## justinhcase (Jan 29, 2016)

new precursors and poisons unit or the CBRNE unit came on line last year
You do not need a licence for the substances currently in your possession. But If you are not set up as a trading business by 3 March 2016, you will need a licence even for the substances in your possession.
So in order to operate with out a special home office licence you have to be able to demonstrate to a supplier that you need the substances for the purposes of your trade, business or profession at that current time.
So now any one who want's to actively refine in any capacity has to be set up as a business or spend month's inline trying to gain a licence form central government,which if you have tried before as I have knows that is a hard road to go down.
In the U.K. you are considered business even if you are just finding your feet the moment you start to buy and sell any noble metals beyond that you happen to have by chance.
The Legislative demand for a small testing lab that produces less than five hundred kilo's of waste classed as toxic is manageable as if you are buying material it would hamper fair trading if you were to restrict testing.people have a right to inspect good's and verify value when they need
But the moment you exceed the toxic waste allowance and get into the realm of controlled licensing and inspection's the CBRN unit will be the least of your problem's.


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## Tomd (Feb 26, 2016)

i believe you can now obtain a home use EPP licence its a bit like a passport app think its £35 and lasts 3 years you have to provide a CRB check and countersignator but its not too much hassle! and i guess after that its just the tax man and youre local EHO you will have to worry about! Tom


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## Anonymous (Mar 4, 2016)

Dear Tom

Many thanks for this information it is extremely useful.

Jon


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