# Wastes - What do you do with them?



## enragedcow (Jul 9, 2008)

I am curious what everyone does with the inevitable wastes - spent acids, etc. In Hoke's book, it's normally mentioned to wash them down the drain, then rinse well.

This doesn't seem like a great idea... so what do you guys do with wastes?


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## Rag and Bone (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm saving everything for the time being. There isn't that much volume so it's not a problem. As an added bonus, all the values from failed batches, experiments etc. can be recovered in the future. I keep different solutions seperated (AP, AC, cleaning rinses, rinse water). On hot days I set the jugs out in the sun to evaporate to bring down the volume.

When the time comes to dispose of it I plan on neutralizing and dropping them off at the hazardous waste facility on amnesty day. 

Pouring anything down the drain would be reckless. I laughed when I read that part in Hoke.


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## enragedcow (Jul 11, 2008)

Rag and Bone said:


> I'm saving everything for the time being. There isn't that much volume so it's not a problem. As an added bonus, all the values from failed batches, experiments etc. can be recovered in the future. I keep different solutions seperated (AP, AC, cleaning rinses, rinse water). On hot days I set the jugs out in the sun to evaporate to bring down the volume.
> 
> When the time comes to dispose of it I plan on neutralizing and dropping them off at the hazardous waste facility on amnesty day.
> 
> Pouring anything down the drain would be reckless. I laughed when I read that part in Hoke.



Saving everything will get out of hand quick for some though - and I'm sure not everyone here is saving stuff.

So, for those of you who dispose of your wastes, how do you do it? Inquiring minds what to know


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## Noxx (Jul 11, 2008)

I can't help you that much since I give all my wastes to a friend of mine, but I think you could precipitate most metals in solution with iron.


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## enragedcow (Jul 15, 2008)

Anyone?

With all these people on this board doing refining, there's gotta be a lot of waste out there - and you've got to be doing *something* with it


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## OMG (Jul 15, 2008)

I have probably 10 gallons of spent acid. I'm researching ways to recover everything in them so only water is left. I've found I can pull the copper and some chlorine out by using electrolysis. I've also found that I can convert iron(3) chloride to hcl gas and iron oxychloride by boiling it down. Then I'm still experimenting with getting rid of the iron oxychloride. I added peroxide and it dissolved back into a yellow liquid, iron chloride I guess. Although it doesn't quite make sense because there was not enough chlorine left to make all the iron dissolve as iron chloride and so there should be some excess iron in there somewhere.
As you can see I'm still figuring stuff out.


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## Rag and Bone (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm working on an evaporation bucket with a power supply fan attached to speed the process. It won't be a final solution for the wastes but it will reduce volume.


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## badastro (Aug 1, 2008)

If you cannot safely dispose of wastes at a qualified facility, then you shouldn't be refining . It doesn't matter how much stuff you can strip out of the solution; it is still not clean unless you would drink it yourself. The free venting of poisonous gasses is reckless enough.

Every city should have some sort of hazardous waste pick up. Check your phone book for possible disposal sites.


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## LeftyTheBandit (Aug 26, 2008)

Im glad to hear the concern. I am a virgin smelter and I must admit I was quite concerned about what toxic slop I would be leaving behind.

A few questions...

1- What poison gases are released?
2- At what stage in smelting do these gases get released?
3- At the end of the day, what hazardous materials am I left with?

If I am going to do this, I want to have a clear conscious.


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## Noxx (Aug 26, 2008)

Answers:

1- When you're dissolving gold or other metals in Aqua Regia or Nitric acid, NOx (NO2 maily) gases are released. These are brown fumes, deadly if not taken seriously. Hydrogen gas is also released.

2- Dissolution

3- Mainly metals nitrates or chlorides.


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## SilverFox (Nov 9, 2008)

Well for my left over AP Solutions I have been using them as "Round up"

You know those pesky weeds that grow on the driveway, Acid kills them pretty quickly. And on the plus side the Copper keeps them from returning.

Any AR or Bleach HCl I save for the yearly toxic round up.


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## LeftyTheBandit (Nov 9, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> You know those pesky weeds that grow on the driveway, Acid kills them pretty quickly. And on the plus side the Copper keeps them from returning.



This sounds wrong to me. 

What about the lead?

I can not see pouring AP acid directly on your driveway as being a responsible method of disposal.

I must have misunderstood your disposal method.


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## usaman65 (Nov 9, 2008)

My grandfather always said, " just dig a hole in your back yard and spill it in." not too smart nowadays.

kev


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## butcher (Nov 10, 2008)

edited to make long story short 
At first I would drop copper using electrolisis zink bar anode,stainless steel cathode, collecting copper powder,then neutalizing with sodium hydroxide and raising Ph> 9, then diluting letting mud settle for month or longer syphering off clear hydroxide solution and saving for the next batch needing neutralized,
trouble is this seems to make alot of volume.

reusing acid solutions and making salts and useful byproducts is what I am doing now,
also I am looking into making them back into clean acids with distilling or electolisis, but havent worked out the details yet,
and theres hazmat Amnesty day.


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## viacin (Nov 10, 2008)

usaman65 said:


> My grandfather always said, " just dig a hole in your back yard and spill it in." not too smart nowadays.
> 
> kev



Honestly, I've come to learn that most business take this practice at least to some degree. Not just refining, but most that deal with some sort of waste (be it oil, or acid) tend to "accidentally" spill as much as they can get away with. All the way from the local machine shop that I work for "spilling" 5 gallon pales of waste oil down a hole in the woods behind our shop, to large multi-billion dollar companies pumping it into the sea because the fine is less than the disposal fees. I've seen shows on Tv about HUGE companies actually buying specialy made boats just for this purpose. 

Now, I'm not a "tree hugger" by no means, I will take care of my waste because I do not want some child coming along and getting into it, not becuase a fish might die or a patch of grass may not grow. I do feel responsibe for the world my son will grow up in, especially when I am the one making the waste and it would be my own backyard that hole would be dug in. Times have changed, but unfortunantly when it comes to saving a buck, business practices have not.

I really do wish the forum had just as much step by step disposal info as it does on processing. If you make it, then you should take care of it. We try to save money on all our steps, so why just pay a fee to dispose of our waste IF there are other quick and easy options. I commend everyone who contributes to this cause.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2008)

I recycle the used ap. I use a 2000ml flask, an anode and cathode of plain steel, and a battery charger. All the copper does drop out and you have a nice light green AP that works just like new. Usually I have to run it twice to drop all the copper, but I have not bought Hcl for 2 months. Be prepared to have a few extra pieces of steel advailable, it does desove edventually.....Jack


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## SilverFox (Nov 16, 2008)

Firewalker said:


> I recycle the used ap. I use a 2000ml flask, an anode and cathode of plain steel, and a battery charger. All the copper does drop out and you have a nice light green AP that works just like new. Usually I have to run it twice to drop all the copper, but I have not bought Hcl for 2 months. Be prepared to have a few extra pieces of steel available, it does desove edventually.....Jack



That is extremely helpful, thank you very much!

If anyone is curious I haven't used more then approx 100 ml as weed control.

it really only took a few drops to annihilate my weed problem, and I didn't see that as a solution.


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## n3vrs0br (Dec 15, 2008)

Firewalker said:


> I recycle the used ap. I use a 2000ml flask, an anode and cathode of plain steel, and a battery charger. All the copper does drop out and you have a nice light green AP that works just like new. Usually I have to run it twice to drop all the copper, but I have not bought Hcl for 2 months. Be prepared to have a few extra pieces of steel advailable, it does desove edventually.....Jack



Thanks, Firewalker!! 

I read this thread a while ago and have since put it into practice. It works wonderfully!

Although I use SS rather than plain steel (since I have a surplus of it,) as it dissolves much more slowly lending to longer anode life and less potential for Fe in your "like-new" AP solution. But the conductivity seems to be a drawback. It takes me about 12hrs to process about 2 gallons of spent solution on the 1st run. By then it's green enough to use, but I bubble it for 24hrs afterward anyway. It pulls about 1/4Lb dirty, wet copper powder per batch.

I'm still tweaking the electronics of the cell.

I've since only needed fresh HCl for washing foils and removing stains, and I rarely need to use H2O2.



Mike


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## Anonymous (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks Mike, as soon as it warms up outside, I will try the stainless.....
jack


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## cashr23523 (Feb 7, 2011)

What about the leftover Na2SO4 + HCL + H2O solution, I guess that is what it is, after adding SMB to the HCL and Chlorox to drop the gold? Anybody found any solutions for handling this waste?


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## cashr23523 (Feb 7, 2011)

cashr23523 said:


> What about the leftover Na2SO4 + HCL + H2O solution, I guess that is what it is, after adding SMB to the HCL and Chlorox to drop the gold? Anybody found any solutions for handling this waste?



I meant "leftover NaHSO4 + HCL + H2O solution" not sodium sulfate.


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## Palladium (Feb 7, 2011)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1093&hilit=wastes+elephant


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## cashr23523 (Feb 7, 2011)

Can you be more specific please? Is it a certain page or another link from that post?


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## butcher (Feb 12, 2011)

These acid solutions have metals that are dangerous to the enviroment, using Iron to replace the metals in solution, you will precipitate the metals above Iron, let settle and decant liquid.

now you have an acidic Iron solution, using caustic soda (lye) (sodium Hydroxide), or wood ash, baking soda, or other strong base, you will neutralize the acid, which will also make Iron and most metals above it precipitate as oxides, these when dry are safe to dispose of, I usually mix them with some lime and dry them.

something I do is reuse my byproducts as much as possible.

NaHSO4 can be used much like sulfuric acid in chemistry.

you should never even attemp to use acids without knowing how to treat your byproducts or waste.

there are some great posts on dealing with wastes, I suggest you read everyone of them before even using any acids, also understand the dangers involved in using these acids, also understand how they react with the different metals, this can be done safely, or could blow up in your face if you do not know what you are doing.


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## Acid_Bath76 (Apr 26, 2011)

After completing my first batch of fingers in AP, I have been left with a little bucket of HCL plus all the base metals. I spent some time looking online, as well as in all my chemistry books for a responsible solution to proper disposal. The fact is, if you can't properly dispose of this stuff, you're wrong. If you're saving this stuff in a huge fifty gallon barrel you're dancing on a wire, so to speak. So what's the solution? I don't know. I'm looking into it, but I have found a few ways to improve the situation to a degree. Here are some things that I'm trying. If you have anything to add please do! This is probably #1 on my list. I can't think of trying to process more until I can reduce my waste output. I'll get off my soapbox now and throw some things out there that have helped me. 

First off.. adding CaCO3 (baking soda) in small increments until it stops fizzing. All this did was neutralize and precipitate some base metals. I tried a little sodium hydroxide (lye), which worked really well too. It's more expensive though. 

Second... I've hung an aluminum heatsink into the bucket, which gave me AlCl and some H gas. This is nice because it thickens the solution a little and seems to leave me with a slurry instead of dark green acid with a thin residue on the bottom. 

Lastly...... My goal is to take all this slop... filter.. gather all the solids and smelt into a "waste metal bar" I'm sure someone on Ebay will want these. If not, I'll check with a scrap dealer. Maybe they can do something with it. 

I haven't taken this to completion yet, but whatever liquid I'm left with will have to be tested further. I only have two semesters of chemistry under my belt at this point, but the books are helping. I'm also reading Hoke, but I don't think she's right about dumping this stuff down the drain 

*** if we're going to do this refining, we need to do it responsibly. This issue needs to be tackled. It really does. You could see years worth of profits taken away... paying for fines and legal fees. 

Thanks guys, I know this isn't much.. but it's been on my mind a lot lately, and I'm surprised on how little this is actually covered on the forum.


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## eeTHr (Apr 26, 2011)

Waste Treatment for the Small Refiner, by 4metals.


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## Acid_Bath76 (Apr 26, 2011)

eeTHr said:


> Waste Treatment for the Small Refiner, by 4metals.



Thanks for the info. I just noticed that I probably posted in the wrong area, but glad to see someone took the time to read it. I'll be reading this before I do anything else. Thanks again... seriously. This is probably one of the most important factors after your personal safety!


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## seawolf (Apr 26, 2011)

Check with any plating companies in your area. They use most of the same acids we use. Make a list of other chemicals used in your processing for them and for a reasonable fee some will add your spent chemicals to their waist stream and it will be disposed of properly. 
The company I do business with asks 12.50 for a full five gallon container. It must be delivered personaly and not shipped.
Mark


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## Militoy (Apr 26, 2011)

I have 2 venues for disposal - both at very low volumes at this time. My county has free local hazardous waste drop-off events about once every 3 months. They will accept up to 20 gallons of waste from each household per visit (for free). Since I own 3 "households" in the area - my volumes are well under their limits as of this stage in my hobby operations. They are actually fairly casual about the limits - since I live in a very rural community. I believe I could probably drop off much more volume without any hassle - should my volumes increase.

My second venue is at work. We have a regular account with a hazardous waste pickup service. They charge us in 55 gallon batch increments - no matter how the waste is containerized - since several classes of our wastes can't be mixed. Many months, we might have only ~10-30 gallons of waste to dispose of, and I can add in the remainder of my own junk, without adding to the bill.


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## kuma (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi all , sorry to revive another older thread , but I feel I need to say this.
I watched a video on youtube yesterday , via a link on here , that showed miles , and miles , of e-scrap dumped in Africa and Japan.
These miles , and miles , of e-scrap , are home to countless children , who burn this crap daily slowly killing themselves just so they can put somthing in their bellies at the end of the day.
I was nearly in tears watching that , and I'm almost brought to tears now even thinking about it.
It's sick.
The way I see it , we need to look out for our children and their future , and preserve THEIR planet for a better future.
We seem to be failing , in epic proportions.
I couldn't be more conscience of what is going on now that I have seen this film , it has totaly changed my thought proccess concerning the disposal of wastes , especialy e-scrap and chemicals.
So I implore anyone who can't be arsed to dispose of their wastes properly , make an effort.
We collect and save every and all traces of precious metals we come across for recovery , and maybe some profit.
This is because every little bit counts.
The same goes for our wastes. 
It all mounts up somewhere , just not in your backyard. (Out of sight , out of mind ?)
Sorry for sounding a bit macabre , but this is close to my heart , we have a duty to our planet , and to our children.
I send everyone my best wishes and best regards , 
Chris


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