# Yet another noob who needs help - Subzero Method



## megaplow (Feb 8, 2012)

Hey All,
This is my 1st foray into gold refining. I have had a bunch gold heavy component free circuit boards for some time. I picked up a Subzero kit from Sears. The kit was missing muriatic acid so I got some of that at Lowes. The kit comes with the following and some testing chemicals. 

1 lb. SubZero -Sodium nitrate: soda ash + nitric acid or sodium hydroxide + nitric acid 
1 lb. Storm precipitant - Sodium hydrogen sulfite: Sodium bisulfite, not sodium "meta" bisulfite
1 lb. Urea

The instructions were a bit cryptic and I feel they were making some assumptions that I and not privy to. 

I add the SubZero in a half gallon of acid.
I then carefully added as many boards that would fit and stay submerged.
A little over an hour later the fizzing stopped and most of the gold had been stripped from the boards. 







Since the fizzing stopped and there was still some metal on several boards, I am assuming that I hit the capacity of the SubZero. 

I filtered off the fluid with a coffee filter and put the filter in with the remaining partially stripped boards. I am assuming the next round of refining will dissolve any gold caught in the filter. 

The instructions for the kit said to keep adding Urea until it doesn't fizz. The Urea never fizzed. To be safe I added a few table spoons of Urea, I am hoping that wasn't a mistake. 

Then I added the Storm precipitant. I was expecting something magic to happen and watch it rain down gold. Nothing happened, so I added more. Still nothing so I added the whole pound of Storm precipitant. I left the fluid for the weekend and when I came back there was a tiny bit of mud at the bottom of the container. 

How long should the precipitation take?

The acid is still clear and really dark (like the picture above), it also tests positive for gold. My test drops turn purple-black when I test the acid. 

If I haven't messed up the acid with the Urea or precipitant, how do I get the rest of the gold out? Do I need more of either of those ingredients?

When do I neutralize the acid with baking soda?

I still have enough boards to do this 1 or 2 more times and have ordered more SubZero and precipitant. 
Any insight or clarification would be much appreciated. 

Joe


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## jimdoc (Feb 8, 2012)

megaplow said:


> I picked up a Subzero kit from Sears.
> Joe



:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## megaplow (Feb 8, 2012)

I KNOW!
It was mail ordered, but still, its amazing what that place sells.


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## patnor1011 (Feb 8, 2012)

megaplow said:


> I KNOW!
> It was mail ordered, but still, its amazing what that place sells.



:roll: Not to sound harsh but....
Nobody on this forum will pay a dime for whatever they sell. It can be bought at any other place for fraction of their price and with proper name not their magic fancy creations like storm or subzero :lol:


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## patnor1011 (Feb 8, 2012)

Now to your problem.

Carefully remove all your boards and place them in clean container.
Put solid copper pieces inside shor magical solution and try to cement out as much metal as possible out of that solution. Filter well, keep filters with any solids from there. Test your solution and if test will be positive for gold add more copper and filter again. 
Place all solids with filters in another container.
Download Hoke book and read that masterpiece it will tell you what you did wrong and how to get your gold.


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## jimmydolittle (Feb 8, 2012)

Looks like you are in need for lots of help. You need to study what's on the forum before continuing. For starters, your solution needs to be diluted with distilled water, at least 50-50. Your SMB (Storm) should begin to work.


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## megaplow (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks for the responses!
There was no mention of diluting the solution in the instructions. There was also no mention of adding copper. I will download the book and look around the forum for more info. 

I'll keep you posted as to my progress. 
Joe


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## gold4mike (Feb 8, 2012)

Since you mentioned that not everything was dissolved I would assume that any gold that had been dissolved was cemented back out of solution by the remaining base metals. Your gold is now brown or black powder stuck to the remaining metal and some of it will have dropped to the bottom of your container.

The urea didn't fizz because all the nitric was already used up.

I suggest you rinse all of the remaining solid items with water, letting it run into your container. Filter the liquid through a tight filter to catch the gold powder. Set everything aside for a few months while you read everything you can on this forum. 

When you have a good understanding of what we do and why, get your stuff back out and finish the recovery.

Welcome to the forum - you have much to learn. :shock:


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## butcher (Feb 8, 2012)

megaplow,
Welcome to the forum, what you did was dissolve your gold with base metals and other junk, (base metals are removed before we dissolve gold).

The suggestion to cement your values on copper is good advice, and forgetting the expensive shore product also good advice.

Reading Hoke's book and doing the experiments will teach you all of the basics, this is the best advice given.

The forum and information provided will teach you recovery from electronics, this is a very vast field of study, so starting to learn the basics and the many methods is the best way to start, jumping in and trying something you think you know is a good way to lose your gold.

Some other places to get started Laser Steve's web site see link in his post.

Welcome to new members (general reaction list) in general chat.

Dealing with waste safety section.

For best results forget trying things before you study them well.

Memory fingers are a great starting material.

We have only said these same things to 20,000 new members so we kind of get tired of saying it, many of these new members give up when the actually find out how much work and trouble it is to get a tiny bit of gold or to purify their gold.

So please forgive us if we are a bit abrupt with this answer to your question.

Welcome study hard and get that gold pure.


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## megaplow (Feb 8, 2012)

All the responses and advice be it sincere, berating or otherwise are more than welcome. Even though the chemicals have me a bit terrified, I am super excited about this process. It has been kinda amazing so far. The yellow/brown vapor that came from the dissolving process in particular. Noobs tend to suck cycles from the community of which I am guilty, sorry for that. 

I will definitely do my homework before progressing. 

Thanks again,
Joe


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## butcher (Feb 8, 2012)

Joe, Nobody here has any intention of berating, we are genuinly trying to help, once you get further into this you will begin to see what we are saying.

I think the further you dig into this gold mine of information you will see how deep this mine is, and at time feel like it will collapse on top of you, just keep digging there is light at the end of the tunnel.


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## megaplow (Feb 8, 2012)

Butcher et al,
I never felt attacked or talked down to. I just wanted you all to know how appreciative I am for your responses, they were a world of help.

Joe


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## megaplow (Feb 9, 2012)

Hey All,
Several of you mentioned that I should cement out my gold, it seems like an interesting process, but I didn't do that. After a little reading and taking jimmydolittle's advice. I added some distilled water to my solution. Almost instantly the thing changed color and a big pile of mud formed at the bottom of my bin. The solution is no longer testing positive for gold. I filtered it out the mud and washed it with ammonia. It is looking like it could be gold. Collectively you pointed out that I may have contaminated my process. Now I have to read up and figure out what exactly is in my mud. 






Thanks again,
Joe


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## patnor1011 (Feb 9, 2012)

Everything is now in your mud.
When you diluted acid everything dissolved just dropped out. Gold alongside with all garbage. I dont see point of washing that with ammonia.
Cementing was advised as it would dissolve copper and push gold out of solution. In that way you would have less garbage to deal with. If I would be in your position right now I would incinerate everything to red hot (do not melt metals to one blob just heat to red hot). 
After incineration I would place everything in HCl. That will dissolve tin, with little bit of peroxide (3%strong and only small bit say 1% of volume of your acid) you dissolve copper, lead, iron too. Leave it in HCl while you will be reading.


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## lazersteve (Feb 9, 2012)

If you dilute an acidic solution saturated with copper one chloride you will get the off-white/tan/gray powder seen in the photo.

Copper I Chloride easily dissolves in HCl. If any gold is present in the CuCl it will not dissolve in straight HCl.

Steve


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## lazersteve (Feb 9, 2012)

I would skip using ammonia in your AR refining processes unless you are 100% sure of what you are doing with it. Typically cooling the pregnant solution with ice and proper filtration will remove all of the silver that makes it through via dissolved silver chloride.

Ammonia can create explosive compounds when mixed with a variety of dissolved metals.

Steve


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## megaplow (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks for the insight.
I can't believe how thorough this forum is. I will go put my mud in HCL and see where it takes me.

Joe


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## nickvc (Feb 10, 2012)

If after you removed the boards there was any base metals left on them do not discard them and again if there was any sludge keep that for later testing, remember you can't lose any values unless you throw them away.


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## megaplow (Feb 10, 2012)

Hey All, 
Last night I put my mud into HCL and got back to reading. Unfortunately I am feeling the 1st batch might be a total loss.

I still have enough boards for a few more goes. My boards all started clean and all the traces were the same color. I am hoping its gold. There is a lot of mention of base metal removal prior to salvaging the gold. Can someone point me to a post about removing base metals? Here is a pic of the boards I am working with, do they look like good candidates for salvage? 






Reagards,
Joe


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## butcher (Feb 10, 2012)

Joe,
You will not learn by jumping from one failed attempt to the next, and never understanding what direction you are going or how to get there.

Let’s work on that first batch, make sure we get any values from it.

And let’s slow down, read up on Hoke's book and the forum, get a member to give you some guidance’s on your next batch, or start with something like memory fingers study all about them and get some gold while learning some of the basics.

So you added HCl to the white salts, did it turn thick black syrup?
You may not even be able to see that there is still some powder in the bottom copper lead and gold salts. If you wish to learn more about those and how to separate them we can help.

Other wise maybe just hang up the chemistry set for a little while and get some studying done.


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## Bizness4you (Feb 10, 2012)

Very cool make some gold. 8) :evil: :evil:


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## kurt (Feb 11, 2012)

megaplow

your first batch is not a total loss unless you dumped your solutions down the drain &/or threw out your mud. Your values are still in one or both places (ether in solution &/or in the mud) & they can still be recovered.

So "first" get some copper pipe from the hardware store - cut it into pieces that are a little longer then the container you have your solution in - then cut it in half length wise & put it in the solution & leave it there for 2 or 3 days. If there are any values in the solution they will do what is called cement out of solution.

Concerning your mud - set it aside for now - covered with water because if there was silver nitrate in it you now have silver chloride after adding muratic acid & you don't want the silver cloride to dry out.

NOW - read C. M. Hokes book on refining - its a free download from right here on the forum. Hokes is a MUST READ if you want to be successfull at recovering & refining presious metals. Read it & re-read it until you understand it - do that along with spending a couple weeks read stuff here on the forum.

THEN - start with some new small batch experments to learn the process of what you learned from reading & at this point you will be able to start asking question with things you are having trouble with &/or things you don't understand.

After you have read/studied Hokes & the forum & after you have got the process down from doing small batch experments - then you can go back to the mud from this first batch & recover the values from it - because then - & only then will you understand what you did wrong & how to fix it.

Kurt


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## kurt (Feb 11, 2012)

megaplow

To give you an idea of what we are talking about by tell you to cement your values out of solution using copper here is a picture of some silver I just started cementing out of solution using copper.

Copper will cement out only silver, gold & platinum group metals because of were copper is in the reactivity series of metals - what happens is that because copper is more reactive then silver, gold & PGMs when you put copper in a solution that has silver, gold or PGMs in it, the copper being more reactive goes into solution causing the silver, gold or PGMs to drop out.

If you have a lot of "free" acid in the solution (acid that has not been used to dissolve the silver, gold or PGMs) then the acid will go to work dissolving the copper "before" it start's cementing out the values.

Because iron is more reactive then copper - iron can be used to cement out the copper - "after" copper has been used to cement silver, gold or PGMs. Iron will cement other metals besides copper (including silver,gold & PGMs)

Gold & PGMs cemented with copper will be a very ultra fine "black" cement (it will pass right through most filters) unlike the courser fine crystal like silver cement you see here in the picture.

So now you can see why it is important that you do some reading & studing before you start doing things &/or before you start asking questions. --- This is just a hint of what you have to learn "first"!!!

Kurt


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## patnor1011 (Feb 11, 2012)

He did not cemented first solution but diluted with water. He then placed all powder from diluted solution in HCl. I did not see anything about incineration. If he just placed powders from Nitric solution to HCl without incineration of material he just dissolved dropped copper chloride with some gold again. He is at his start point again and have values dissolved with base metals.


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## kurt (Feb 11, 2012)

patnor1011 said:


> He did not cemented first solution but diluted with water. He then placed all powder from diluted solution in HCl. I did not see anything about incineration. If he just placed powders from Nitric solution to HCl without incineration of material he just dissolved dropped copper chloride with some gold again. He is at his start point again and have values dissolved with base metals.



Hi Pat - yes, I understood that - I was trying to explain why he is being told to cement his values (so he can get to a point of actually refining them) as well as how &/or why cementing works.

He made the common mistake of putting whole CBs in acid & thats what we know for sure. Was it enough acide to dissolve base metals & values - or just base metals. If he dissolved just base metal - then his value is still in the mud. --- Ether way (value or no value in solution) a piece of copper will tell him - he will ether get a value to cement back - or not. (if there is gold or PGMs in solution it could take a day or two to cement them out)

Thats what I would do with the solution at this time - then a lot of reading & small batch experements to get an understanding - then come back to clean up the first batch mistakes.

Thats how I learned - after making the same mistake when I first started a couple years ago

Kurt


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## patnor1011 (Feb 11, 2012)

I recommended cementing right on start of this thread, he decided to dilute with water. Then I advised him to incinerate and it looks like he skipped that and put it straight to HCl. If that is what he did he is in a hurry but that just made him to make another lets say failed attempt to recover whatever is in his batch. 
Whoever want to recover or refine gold need to take time to understand process, go slow, do testing batches and when procedure is mastered then move on to larger batches or more complicated methods. We all went through this and we all know that understanding of what is going on or what will happen is major part of success.


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## kurt (Feb 12, 2012)

patnor1011 said:


> I recommended cementing right on start of this thread, he decided to dilute with water. Then I advised him to incinerate and it looks like he skipped that and put it straight to HCl. If that is what he did he is in a hurry but that just made him to make another lets say failed attempt to recover whatever is in his batch.
> Whoever want to recover or refine gold need to take time to understand process, go slow, do testing batches and when procedure is mastered then move on to larger batches or more complicated methods. We all went through this and we all know that understanding of what is going on or what will happen is major part of success.



:lol: Yep - right on - you hit the nail on the head with that post Pat - & of course that is the "promise" shor sell's --- buy our kit & in a "hurry" you will be making money from the GOLD in electronics :shock: :lol: :x :evil: :lol:

Anyway I posted trying to explain to megaplow what the process of cementing is - how & why it works -in the hope that he would/will understand why you & others said to do this & also so he can see that recovering/refining PMs from electronics is more involved then the promise of shor & the kit they sell.

Megaplow - if you are still here - 2 years ago I was in your shoes. I was working off of limited info & "bad" info found on the internet. --- Then I found this forum & thanks to the good people of this forum (some of them with as much as 40 years experience of refining precious metals) I am now having real success.

Like me - if this is something you really want to do - then this is the right place to learn about it - in fact the very best place in the world - but please understand this is not something that happens in a hurry (as shor would have you believe) it takes time to do the reading reseaching studing expermenting & asking question to succeed.

Kurt


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## megaplow (Feb 13, 2012)

Hey All,
Thank you again for all the knowledge. When I started this process I had no idea what I was getting into. Like you have all said, the Subzero sales pitch makes it sound super easy. Once I had a gallon of black acid on my hands I found I was pretty committed to the project. More environmentally than what the salvage might be. I have been reading around on the site and am blown away with what you are getting out of memory sticks and chips. Now I am interested in knowing the craft and salvaging precious metals from my chip and circuit board collection. I still havent read the Hokes book, but that is starting tonight.

After finding this picture:





I feel I have been dealing with palladium instead of gold. When I was testing my original solution (prior to precipitation) the test spots were turning super dark which I took as "purple-black" but I feel they may have been an extreme dark green. 

Currently I have my salvaged solids dissolved in HCL (muriatic acid). The solution is black. Last week I put some copper in there to start the cementing process. I have tipped the solution so I could see to the bottom. There is black power on the bottom and the copper in the solution is turning silver. 

My original acid (in a separate bucket) is turning an amazing blue which I can only imagine is due to copper. 

Back to work then home to spend some quality time with Hokes,
Joe


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## qst42know (Feb 13, 2012)

When you do get into Hoke's you will find the method to get gold out of the way of your palladium test. I won't spoil it for you. :mrgreen:


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## megaplow (Feb 13, 2012)

Sounds like all hope is not lost. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## butcher (Feb 13, 2012)

No Hope is lost, your going to read Hoke's book, So Hope is just beginning.


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## megaplow (Feb 16, 2012)

Hey All,
Hokes is the woman. I REALLY wish there was mention of his book or better instruction in my SubZero kit. I havent made any moves with my solution nor have I started a new batch. I do, however have a few questions.

I looked at the black fluid that is my 1st batch. The copper I put in for the concreting process has mostly dissolved. I am assuming its because I am using muriatic acid instead of HCL. Now I have that much more copper to get out of the fluid, wer wer.

I am using "Safer Muriatic Acid" instead of HCL. 
Can Muriatic acid be substituted for HCL and is there any difference between "Safer Muriatic" and the regular old "Muriatic"?

I live in San Francisco, do you know where I can get HCL and Nitric acid?

Thanks in advance,
Joe


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## jimdoc (Feb 16, 2012)

megaplow said:


> Hey All,
> Hokes is the man. I REALLY wish there was mention of his book or better instruction in my SubZero kit.
> Thanks in advance,
> Joe




Let me be the first to say, Hoke was not a man. Shor doesn't want to teach you to refine like Miss Hoke did, they just want to sell you stuff.

Jim


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## patnor1011 (Feb 16, 2012)

megaplow said:


> Hey All,
> Hokes is the woman. I REALLY wish there was mention of his book or better instruction in my SubZero kit. I havent made any moves with my solution nor have I started a new batch. I do, however have a few questions.
> 
> I looked at the black fluid that is my 1st batch. The copper I put in for the concreting process has mostly dissolved. I am assuming its because I am using muriatic acid instead of HCL. Now I have that much more copper to get out of the fluid, wer wer.



You do not get copper out of solution. What for? You just carry on and put more copper inside until it stop dissolving. Cementing is here for exactly that. Replacing one metal in solution by another one. In your case you want to dissolve copper so copper will push gold out. 



megaplow said:


> I am using "Safer Muriatic Acid" instead of HCL.
> Can Muriatic acid be substituted for HCL and is there any difference between "Safer Muriatic" and the regular old "Muriatic"?
> 
> I live in San Francisco, do you know where I can get HCL and Nitric acid?
> ...



You have a lot of study ahead but don't worry you will get there, it all just take some time. HCl is Hydrochloric acid - the same as Muriatic acid. Muriatic is just older name but still being used.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hydrochloric+acid&l=1


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## patnor1011 (Feb 16, 2012)

Recovery of copper from solution is done at the end when you do not have any values inside and you want to properly dispose of your waste. Use sheet of iron (casing from floppy or cd/dvd drive). You will cement copper this time replacing it by iron. When no more of copper will drop out of solution you decant, save copper powder and neutralize with soda ash. Then it is safe to dispose.


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## kurt (Feb 17, 2012)

megaplow - As patnor said muriatic acid & HCL are the exact same thing just different names - use the regular old muriatic for your refining.

Now you are starting to understand why we say it is so important for you to spend a "great" deal of time doing some study &/or research work before moving ahead with any more refining.

Its called cementing - not concreting --- go back & read (again) what I posted about cementing - I explained it in detail - IF (thats a big if) you have any values in solution copper will cement out the values & only the values (silver, gold & PGMs) silver will be a course cement that can be filtered - gold & PGMs will be ultra fine & will go through a filter - they will accumulate on your copper as a very very fine black slime &/or settle to the bottom as a very very fine black slime or sludge. Use heavy pieces of copper NOT copper wire. 

And as Pat said - after you have cemented the values out using copper - you can then cement the copper out using iron.


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## Photobacterium (Feb 17, 2012)

megaplow said:


> Sounds like all hope is not lost. Thanks for the encouragement.



in a way, it's a form of Long Term investment.

your values are tucked safely away, locked up perhaps better than if they were in a vault.

meanwhile, the general trend for their $ value is UP.


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## megaplow (Mar 26, 2012)

Hey All,
Its been some time. I have been messing around with the familiarity experiments. It might be time for me to go back and clean up my original solution. Currently my solution is super dark and fully saturated with copper. Additional copper at this point sits on the bottom. There is no mud on the bottom of my container. 

Can you please let me know if these are the right next steps?

1) Carefully reduce the solution down to a syrup - (to remove nitric acid)
2) Add some HCL and see if it makes fumes
3) Repeat 1 and 2 till no more nitric acid is present.
4) Dilute 4 to 1 with water 
5) Add copperas.

I would love to start my next batch, the right way, but I feel cleaning up the 1st round is a good idea.

Joe


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## maynman1751 (Mar 26, 2012)

You say that there is metallic copper in the solution that has not dissolved? If so, there is NO nitric left. Is what you have just the liquid off of your first process? No solids other than the copper? No black residue in the bottom of vessel? Answer these and we'll go from there.


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## MysticColby (Mar 27, 2012)

The point of adding copper was to get all of your gold to solid form so you can dispose of the liquid (set it aside, make sure no valuables, neutralize, dispose of properly) and start from square 1 again. Please don't skip around now that you're on track.
also: I didn't see any mention of how much you started with (just pounds of ingredients), so the amount of gold powder may not look like very much, especially in a container that holds gallons of liquid.
Muriatic Acid is another name for Hydrochloric Acid (HCl). What concerns me was the 'safer' part: didn't I read somewhere on here that 'safer muriatic acid' is not pure HCl? that it has additives that reduce it's reactivity and may interfere with refining?


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## megaplow (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks for the responses,
My current solution has dissolved all the copper it can and there is no mud on the bottom. Previously I diluted my original batch with water and collected the solids. My current solution is those solids re-dissolved in HCL. I am thinking that I may have poured off my gold during that step. One thing that is nice about reducing the solution, is that I am dealing with a much smaller volume. 

Bummer about the "safer" muriatic acid. Even if its less reactive, I think it got the job done. I feel with all my flailing the 1st batch may be a loss. The 1st batch started out with 10 lbs of boards. Not sure how much gold that would yield. I have about 15lbs of boards left for my next batch or two. My copperas should be here Monday I may add some of that to the solution and see what happens. In addition, I still have some Storm Participant, I was thinking about taking a sample of my solution and adding that. 

Baby steps moving forward,
Joe


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## butcher (Apr 1, 2012)

megaplow Joe,
My suggestion: 
keep the solutions in a bucket you do not lose gold if you keep it, (add a piece of clean copper metal to that bucket), the gold will be there, forget about starting another batch, (do not start another failure). You still have more work studying to do first. Keep reading Hoke's, study also the acid peroxide process for fingers. Work on getting some gold foils, do not worry about dissolving the gold yet, concentrate on stripping the base metals from the foil fingers, and let’s take little steps to learn.

Let us not jump off the cliff all at once, it seems like to me a hard way to learn, I get a headache every time I try that method.

Once you get a nice big pile of foils we can take the next step.


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## megaplow (Apr 1, 2012)

Thank you Butcher,
That is sound advise. I have added clean copper to the solution and white powder forms on it. When I lift the copper out the powder slides back into the solution. I am hoping this is the concreting process. The reason I am anxious to start a new batch, is due to the fact that this time, I have nitric acid. My plan is to use the nitric acid to remove the base metals before going after the gold. What is unfortunate about my current solution is that its so contaminated with other metals. Opportunity for learning though :lol: One of my experiments was with fingers and I was able to get a small pile of foils at the bottom. Things are looking up.

Joe


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## butcher (Apr 1, 2012)

megaplow, Joe,
I am glad you found nitric, but I would not use it until you understand the reactions better.
Nitric acid has its own set of problems you can encounter not to mention the very deadly fumes.

Lets discuss this solution your working on now.

You stated:" I have added clean copper to the solution and white powder forms on it."

This does not make sense to me, if you have white powder and a solution; the copper metal is just about useless here.

Then you also stated: "When I lift the copper out the powder slides back into the solution. I am hoping this is the concreting process."

The reason is nothing is happening, this is not the cementing process.

The white powders can be many things they may also be some gold, lead, copper, tin, silver and other base metal chloride salts, I suppose the solution is green.

Rinse off the copper into this solution (dry and save the copper in a plastic bag for later).

Let powders settle, decant solution to another container (test this solution with stannous chloride (I suspect it to be barren of value). 

This and waste and also the waste you will generate in discussion below can be added together, add iron and treat the waste (separating copper), and then (treat iron chloride with a base solution (caustic soda, lime or so on) of your choice to precipitate iron and other metals), from the salt water solution, (see dealing with waste in safety section for more details).

The white powders rinse powders in dilute sodium hydroxide solution, until pH is neutral, rinse with boiling hot water till water is clear this can be done in casserole dish on low heat on electric hot plate, (lower heat so solutions settle, solutions removed with turkey baster type suction bulb, after powders are well settled but solution is as hot as possible without stirring powder), after last rinse has been removed,

slowly evaporate liquid, when dry crush powders stirring and raise heat, the dry powders may fuse and become syrup or liquid again, raise heat but do not let it boil to where solution splashes from dish if bubbles pop lower heat, keep heating till dry again, crush raise heat to high let cook stirring dry powders until they no longer smoke, they may also become darker, on high heat several hours, then use a torch from the top, but do not blow powders from dish, raise heat of all of the powder to red hot stirring powder, they will change color (we do not want to melt)when they no longer smoke, and have been well roasted, lower heat and let them cool.

Add just enough water with a spray bottle mist to wet powders and wash down side of dish, add HCL to cover, raise heat to low boil stirring well, crush any lumps, after heated well add some water, lower heat but keep warm but let all powder settle well, when settled decant solution to a jar (this jar will be tested and treated for waste later we will call it decant jar), rinse with boiling hot water till water is clear, and repeat the HCl washes and hot water rinses till the solutions clear, this should remove most of the lead, tin and copper and other base metals from your gold and silver, let decant jar settle testsolution with stannous chloride, and treat as needed (waste).

Now re-incinerate your gold and silver powders (as you did above), store these in a small jar, mark label jar possible gold and silver incinerated powders, put up in your lab, finish treating your waste materials, 

And then read Hokes book, keep you lab work to doing the experiments Hoke’s book teaches, forget about getting gold yet, (the real value for you right now is understanding her teaching, until you do you will not be getting gold anyway).


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## megaplow (Apr 5, 2012)

Hey All,
As I am getting more clarity on the chemical processes discussed on this site and in Hokes book, I had an idea. Is it possible that my 1st batch was so large there was no gold in the solution? I used 1lb of subzero and about a gallon of hcl. The acid was only able to process about half of the boards in my bucket. Then it quit reacting leaving a lot of material still on my boards. Since gold is the least reactive of the metals in the mix, I think my 1st solution may just be a ton of base metals. The reason I feel this way is because after a successful flake removal from fingers (in a small test), I went back to my original pile of unfinished boards and noticed there are flakes all over them.

An optimistic observation,
Joe


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## MysticColby (Apr 5, 2012)

yes, if all the base metals (predominantly copper) were not dissolved, any gold that was dissolved would cement out onto them. This is a big reason why it's recommended to dissolve base metals first, then the gold

To the others: given 1lb random ICB, how much gold might one expect to refine? (I get the feeling it'd be somewhere around 0.1 g)


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## butcher (Apr 5, 2012)

megaplow,
In your first picture on this thread it shows whole circuit boards, some circuit boards have traces of copper between layers of fiberglass of the circuit board, also there are through holes of copper and solder, and copper under the solder mask.

By doing whole boards, not only is the solder and other base metals (besides copper) going to give you problems, but there is hardly any way to dissolve all of the copper in the circuit board, under these layers of other non metals, this remaining copper will trap the little bit of gold you had in solution with the boards, especially if you dissolve the gold into the acidic solution, as the elemental copper left can reduce the dissolved gold plating it onto the remaining un-dissolved copper.

Also remember solutions can hold more than one metal at a time, the dirtier or thicker the solution the worse it can be, a heavily laden solution of copper gold atoms may cling to copper atoms, especially if other trash or organic materials are involved (oils, carbon based materials), the solutions can hold gold and copper in solution at the same time, this is especially true even with metals like tin that can form a jell solution of gold colloids, these dirty solutions can also make testing for gold almost impossible.

I hope you get something out of this experiment, and feel your gaining an education, which is much more important than a few grams of gold, and reading Hoke's and understanding what she teaches is worth more than several ounces of gold, but unless you incinerated and crushed all of the boards and powdered them, went through all of the solutions and anything these solutions have touched, I feel you have lost much of the values the materials had before you processed them, you may be able to recover some of it, and hopefully you will, but now you can also see why we remove individual components, clean off solders, remove base metals and then refine the values,

I suggest, work to finish this project the best you can, clean up this mess, recover what you can, save dried materials (if you wish to fool with them later), treat waste solutions properly, and start fresh, doing what you have learned, practice Hokes getting acquainted, and getting the valuable things she teaches (worth ounces of gold), and learn testing practicing with pure solutions, also from what you have learned on the forum, start with a simple process, much cleaner, and easier to learn from, like clean memory fingers, working with more pure and cleaner materials you will see how the process looks and acts (without all of the problems of the dirty solutions), after you have a good understanding of principles then with more experience you can learn more about how to deal with dirty and problematic solutions.

Start fresh with your approach, now that you have learned more, and use this education to adjust how you work in your lab, take a more scientific approach (that is the advice I am giving myself also now, to revise some of my thinking, process methods and bad habits), study experiment (follow known working procedures), and gain an understanding, then going for the gold should become much easier, and profitable.


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## Aussiemozza (May 14, 2015)

I've gotta laugh :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Here's me: another noob with a witches brew and figuring out how to drop my metals back out so I start again. :roll: 

For those interested, I 'semi' pre-processed my boards by clipping all gold-rich bits but have to be honest: I let way too much solder and copper tracings go into the mix.

Naturally, because I'm a NOOOOOOOB, I figured the easy way would be to hit it all with Nitric to dissolve all metals 'cept for the important ones. That worked okay with a nice blue-green solution coming off.

Next, after washing the leftovers with water, I treated the remaining boards plus gold flakes with AR. 

The resultant solution was very dark green.
I neutralised the nitric with Urea, filtered then added SMB.
Adding SMB gave a substantial bubbling which rang alarm bells so I stopped - there is a white 'salt' collecting on the bottom of the container which I presume comprises different metal salts.

So I've hit the brakes and had a piece of humble pie - tastes good...

To summarise:
I DO have Au in solution as all gold flake were dissolved in AR
I DO have a witches brew with plenty of SMB in it.
I have diluted the brew X3 and chucked in some Copper to drop out my important metals.
I am currently reclining with a downloaded copy of Hokes.

Great forum guys - will post my success story soon.

Moz


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## Geo (May 14, 2015)

Good luck Moz. At least you are moving in the right direction now.


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## butcher (May 14, 2015)

Aussiemozza,
We can learn from our mistakes (the hard way), and we can study so that we do not make so many mistakes, so the learning can become easier and were not just making one big mistake, after another and getting nowhere.

This may seem simple to the uneducated, but in reality like most any profession there is a lot you will need to understand, basic principles of the chemistry of these metals is just the beginning.

Beginning with Hoke's book will help you begin to understand many of the basics.

When you learn more, you will begin to see this is all much more complicated than it seemed at first, and this is something that will take a lot of education, like learning many other types of professions, learning the basic principles and building your education on them.

Like learning to play the piano, starting out with something simple is helpful, learning to play something like Mary had a little lamb, and getting it down before moving on to more complex music, is normally a good way to begin. 

Forget about getting gold for the time being, (gold fever blinds us to the true goal, and can lead us down the wrong trail chasing it like chasing rainbows).

Spending your time learning about it, will get you closer to that goal, setting up your lab, getting acquainted with the metals using Hoke's simple experiments, while you study her book, learning from the forum, about the safety aspects, and dealing with waste, learning how to test for, the value and where to find what you will eventually need.

Do not just run out and buy supplies or materials until you know for sure you need them, as you may buy a bunch of stuff you will never use, or spend way too much for it, or may learn you can get by with something more simple or that you can find for free or very little cost...

Study a simple material and how to process it, when beginning (like memory fingers, or karat gold...) using Hoke's and what you learn form those experiment's, incorporate the material and your processing of them with those experiment's to get an even better understanding...

You are beginning to learn a profession that can involve several lifetimes to learn and get good at, and to learn everything about it well none of us will have that many lifetimes, so beginning with study will get you closer to that gold you seek.

I am looking forward to your posts of success.


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## Aussiemozza (May 15, 2015)

butcher said:


> Aussiemozza,
> We can learn from our mistakes (the hard way), and we can study so that we do not make so many mistakes, so the learning can become easier and were not just making one big mistake, after another and getting nowhere.
> 
> This may seem simple to the uneducated, but in reality like most any profession there is a lot you will need to understand, basic principles of the chemistry of these metals is just the beginning.
> ...



All true!

So much for my chem major at Uni...... at least it's helping with the understanding.

Tx
Moz


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## maynman1751 (May 15, 2015)

Moz, don't throw anything out yet. Some of your values may still be trapped in the remaining copper in the boards. Just store your solution safely and continue studying. Others here have done the same as you and you will find your answers here. Be patient and learn!!!!!


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## g_axelsson (May 15, 2015)

Example of gold cementing back onto circuit board that was left in AR.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=17697

Göran


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