# Rising official mint... 3x100gr ^^



## ALPHABiT (Jun 22, 2009)

In order to build perfect ingots, i show you when i can arrive without the press...







In order to do better, i think i have to set up a press with steel molds to coin up... And it seems really expansive to do for my passion. But maybe i'll find some used tools a day, i hope.

Of course all this gold is from scraps and computers parts. Purity 999 checked  And all thanking this great forum and people who teached me all i know.


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## lazersteve (Jun 22, 2009)

Very Nice!

Did you make the stamps yourself or did someone stamp the bar for you?

Steve


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## Harold_V (Jun 22, 2009)

That is an exceptionally nice ingot, with outstanding markings. Very well done! I wish I could have achieved the same level of excellence when I was refining. 

Harold


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## ALPHABiT (Jun 23, 2009)

Thanx masters 

Stamps made from EVER STAMP there in USA (here in Italy it was double expensive to make) on my drawings.

I refined, casted and punched them myself.

Harold i saw your ingots. They are much more better then mine... Maybe u can show me some steel stamps to "press" ingot into...


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## Harold_V (Jun 25, 2009)

ALPHABiT said:


> Harold i saw your ingots. They are much more better then mine...


No, they weren't. I marked the base of my ingots because I struggled getting a reasonably flat surface on the top. Yours has a very nice top surface. You did good! Really, really good :!: 



> Maybe u can show me some steel stamps to "press" ingot into...



I'm not sure what you'd like to see, ALPHABiT. I don't have the logo stamp I used to use, but I do have the identical stamp in two larger sizes. They required so much pressure to use that I didn't let then go with the refining business, knowing the buyer had no way to use them. I also have the letters and numbers that I used to use for marking the weights and other information. They were a part of my machine shop, used for marking tooling that I built for my customers. They are not the hand type, that are used one at a time. If you can tell me what you'd like to see, I'll take some pictures and post them as soon as I can. 

Harold


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## nicknitro (Jun 25, 2009)

Alphabit,

Very nice Sir,

I hope to post some worthwhile pics soon, as well. 

Question, was this hand stamped? I see a good deal of swelling, which I "only imagine" is common with ingots of this size. LOL

Great Job, and keep proving E-Scrap can be profitable, if free.


Good Luck,
Nick


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## Strider (Jun 25, 2009)

really nice! how long did you collect all that gold?


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## Harold_V (Jun 25, 2009)

nicknitro said:


> I see a good deal of swelling, which I "only imagine" is common with ingots of this size.


You imagine correctly. That was an ongoing problem with my ingots. I resorted to supporting them on soft plastics instead of steel surfaces when I'd imprint mine with my logo. Pure gold is so ductile that it's hard to not deform it when stamping. 

I don't speak for ALPHABiT, but I believe his point is that his markings are _all hand done_. Frankly, if others can achieve that level of quality, they've arrived! That is one damned nice ingot. Trust me. I marked hundreds through the years. Never did achieve that level of quality using an arbor press. 

Harold


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## Lou (Jun 25, 2009)

Very nice!! Premium Italian craftsmanship.


Looks like we have the Ferrari of gold ingots!


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 25, 2009)

I agree. I think it's gorgeous. Both the quality and the mark.


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## audragon (Jun 27, 2009)

very exciting to see! Thanks for sharing pic.


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## ALPHABiT (Jul 5, 2009)

Thanx to all.
Yes, this is all hand made. ( i made a bit of them, their weight are 100 grams each one).
Gold i collected is not only from recycled (pc boards and so on). 
But i also buy solid 750 scraps to refine and sometimes i buy directly 999 for jewelers at 3% spot price discount (this is normal and official price for jewelers here in Italy, oh, i'm not a jeweler! i'm an informatic  ).
I buy every time i have some extra money to spend (i dont belive in fiat money, expecially in this periods).
I collect gold and silver Italian coins (Vittorio Emanuele III), and silver/gold metals.
Like this:

100 LIRE 1925 Vetta D'Italia MS65





5 LIRE 1911 Cinquantenario MS61






It's not so much i would like to have that i actually got. But i'm not so rich to store what i would like. 
Better... I think it will never be enough for a collector.

My actually dream (next step) is to coin directly gold/silver ingots and medals with a press and stamps.

But it seems to be harder then refine, becouse costs.


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## Oz (Jul 5, 2009)

Alphabit,

An exceedingly fine bar indeed! 

I am also curious as to the gold and silver content in the coins. I recognize that their collector value exceeds that of the metal but I wonder at the 20:1 ratio of face value between the gold and silver coins from a historical viewpoint. Not knowing the mass of fine gold and silver contained in each I wonder if the ratio is the same for the metals at that time of history in Italy. For comparison it is currently 69.69:1, or said another way an ounce of gold buys 69.69 ounces of silver.

Thanks for any additional info you have on them.


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## ALPHABiT (Jul 7, 2009)

Hi Oz,

You are right when u think values change in history.
Sometimes it changed in module (weight / diameter), other times in metal contained. In particular in Italy in the "modern" era (it means from about 1700 to today) silver % Changed. On gold coins it seems it changed in weight/module only. Those coins are 900/1000 of gold and 900/1000 silver.
Worth is about 10000€ for the first and 2500€ for the second in that conditions (perfects).

Module of gold 100 lire changed under the VEIII reign too. it passed from 32,25gr of 900/1000 with a diameter of 35mm, to 8,8gr of 900/1000 with a diameter of 23.5mm in the 1931 with this coin:






5 Lire silver coins, dropped to 5gr of 835/1000 with 23mm of diameter on 1926.
That one i showed was from 1911 and it is 25gr of 900/1000 with 37mm of diameter.


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## Oz (Jul 7, 2009)

Alphabit,

Thank you for the additional information on Italian gold and silver coinage. If you go back in time before the 1700’s when global commerce was less frequent you will notice that in Northern Europe silver was far closer to the value of gold than in Southern Europe. In the north there was very little silver that could be mined making it rarer, however in the south silver was far more common in the ground. I have spent considerable time studying the ratio between gold and silver and the factors that drive it thru history. 

Beyond what is happening in the world today with the devaluation of our fiat paper currencies, this was also done with gold and silver coins. Some countries were more honest than others in doing this by maintaining the purity of its coinage but changing the mass so it was easily seen. Many consider the debasement of Roman coins to be one of the big reasons for its fall. Because of the huge cost of expansionism they continued to pay for it by stealing more and more gold and silver from their coinage by altering the purity. Near the end other nations would not accept Roman money in payment as there was almost no gold or silver contained in them. 

The Roman Empire over minted its money compared to the gold and silver it possessed to pay for its military machine and social programs. The situation in the United States is eerily similar to the fall of Rome in the debasement of its money to pay for military might and social programs as well that it can not afford. It remains to be seen when other countries will no longer wish to accept US Dollars. I love my country but am disgusted with its government. Our founding fathers understood this corrupt practice of stealing from the populace with currency debasement very well. To protect the common man from theft by its own government they defined the Dollar as 371.25 grains (0.7734375 Troy ounces) of pure silver in our Constitution. Sad to say our Constitution as written by some of the smartest men of the time and what made this nation great and strong is now virtually ignored today.

It sounds as though you are a "Hard Money" man the same as I am. If one does not wish to hold paper money but keep their wealth in gold and silver it is still possible to increase their holdings by trading gold for silver and back again by watching and understanding this value change of the metals. Most people think of this only in terms of gold and silver but it works to great advantage in other precious metals as well. Imagine if a bit over a year ago you traded rhodium at $10,000.00 an ounce for gold. If you traded your gold back for rhodium today you would have increased your rhodium holdings by almost 10 times your starting amount without the risk of having your wealth in a paper currency. 

If you are interested in ratio trading you are welcome to PM me and I will go into greater detail. It is a bit off topic here.

Thanks again,
Oz


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## Ageo308 (Jul 14, 2009)

Bravo Alphabit, dove sei in Italia?


My mother is going over to Napoli, in August to pick up some jewellery.

Some fine workmanship there my friend, if only you were here in Australia i could set you up and keep you busy full time with refining.


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## ALPHABiT (Jul 16, 2009)

> Bravo Alphabit, dove sei in Italia?
> 
> 
> My mother is going over to Napoli, in August to pick up some jewellery.
> ...



Hi Ageo,
I was born in Milan, but i live in Trieste since 2 years... 'Cose the Sea  (I like to sail too).
Thanks for your offer, i think i'll be in Australia during my wedding holydays next year  Will be nice to meet!

Hope your mom will have good deals there in Naples too. 
If not, Naples is a city "to see" at least 1 time in a life  (Like Rome, Venice, Florence and so on! LOL!)
Just pay a little bit of more attention, 'cose there are a lot of thiefs there in Naples streets.


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## Oz (Jul 16, 2009)

Out of all of Europe the main cathedral in Milan is one of my favorites, partially because of the tour that takes you up on the huge stone tiled roof for quite a view. Just down the street is a rather non-descript church that has Leonardo da Vinci’s painting of the lLast Supper. It was being restored the last time I was there but was still magnificent whether you are religious or not.

I am surprised that Alphabit did not mention Verona of Romeo and Juliet fame. When you go to Juliet’s house make sure to rub the proper place on her bronze statue ;-) If I remember right it is also the town with the fountain that has the little boy pee across the piazza (sp) on the unsuspecting pedestrians every few minutes. It’s rather entertaining to watch the tourist’s reactions.


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## qst42know (Jul 16, 2009)

There may be some merit to hand struck stamps. 

A force applied slowly will cause more deformation than a force applied at speed. The math behind this pretty complex and I haven't done anything remotely like it in a very long time but I believe the term for this is: 

"Rate dependent plasticity"

This type of materials science should also apply to gold or any other solid.

As an example of the exotic math involved.

http://www.engin.brown.edu/courses/En222/Notes/FEMplastic/FEMplastic.htm


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## grainsofgold (Jul 21, 2009)

Bello Bello !

Great job on the bar-


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## Strider (Aug 30, 2009)

Wow that is some good work! Keep it up!


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