# smd's



## samuel-a (Jan 12, 2010)

hi all 
i have this common types of smd's , some i know and some i don't, help will be appreciated:




no. 1 - monolithic capacitor , usually come in many different colors from light brown to dark red , some of them contains Pd and sometimes Ag. marked Cxxx on PCB.

no. 2 - don't know the name or function or what it contains. marked as Lxxx on the PCB.

no. 3 - don't know the name or function of the component, but visible gold is on it.

no. 4 - don't know the name or function of the component, but visible gold is on it.

no. 5 - don't know the name or function or what it contains. 

no. 6 - resistors, don't know if contains any PM's. marked Rxxx on the PCB. comes in many sizes and colors.


SAMUEL


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## samuel-a (Jan 14, 2010)

somebody...? anybody...


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## 2002valkyrie (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi Samuel, 
I too am interested in this type of components. I have the chance to refine a 55 gallon drum of over runs but would like to know a little bit more before I take the job. They gave me a .5 oz sample to test and claim that it is high in Platinum. Most of the components I have are very very small. Advise anyone?


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## samuel-a (Jan 14, 2010)

2002valkyrie

i see that most of the components you have there are a mix of monocaps and resistors.
as i'm not sure about the different types PM's that resistors may or may not contain (probably not), if you plan on taking the job, i strongly earge you to work only with homogeneous types of components and not a mixture. this will make your life harder with low return.

platinum is not present in monocap's, and pretty rare unless special types. as far as i know....
the PM's in monocap's are Pd and sometims Ag.


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## 2002valkyrie (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks for the fast reply Samuel. I normaly only work with gold and most of that is pawn shop supplied. As far as working with a mixture, this stuff is mixed through and through. But it's in 55 gallon drums. I was ask by an associate if I would refine one of them if he purchased them. I told him I would have to research it.


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## lazersteve (Jan 14, 2010)

I've got some old videos of me processing the monolithics, I'll try to post them to my website in the near future.

If you have the time (a month or so) a long soak in straight AP with occasional additions of HCl and peroxide will eat the little buggers right up with no heat, crushing, or special preparations. Just stir occasionally and add some additional solution when needed.

You'll end up with a nice blood red to deep-orange solution with a thick white sludge in the bottom. Part of the ceramic will initially dissolve into the liquid then after becoming saturated will crystallize back out in large clusters of semicircular scales of an unknown compound. 

After everything is dissolved that will, filter every last bit of the sediment out of the dark liquid and process for PGMs with the usual methods.

The fine powder is then separated from the crystals by washing with dilute HCl and lots of filtering. A buchner with vacuum assist would do wonders at this stage. I've melted some of the white powder and it formed what appears to be silver (smoked a lot when melting and crabs up on the surface), but I'm not certain of it's purity or silver content.

The overall process can be sped up if you crush the material to a fine powder, use a heated reaction, and have good stirring. An initial extraction of the ground material with HCl will serve to remove the nickle and tin from the end caps of the SMDs. The initial HCl extraction will be purple and the second one will be pale blue-green to lime colored (nickle). After these two leaches as done, filter out the sludge and leach it with hot HCl-Cl or AR to extract the precious metals.

When crushing the SMDs be very care to wear a good breather mask, goggles, gloves, and skin protection as the fine dust is bad for your health .

All of the monolithics I process come from identical reels of the exact same make and model cap. GSP has previously stated that the SMD resistors contain ruthenium, and I have confirmed this via online research.

Expect yields of up to 2.5% Pd by weight for the proper types of monolithics. As I have always stated concerning these items: Not all monolithics contain Pd, those manufactured prior to 1997 are the most likely to contain Pd. Don't expect platinum unless you are dealing with monolithics from aerospace, military, medical, or IBM mainframe equipment sources. The older ones may also contain gold and/or silver.

Steve


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## Scott2357 (Jan 14, 2010)

Samuel,

I think I can help identify some of those parts but it's hard to see details of some in the photo. See comments below.

no. 1 - monolithic capacitor , usually come in many different colors from light brown to dark red , some of them contains Pd and sometimes Ag. marked Cxxx on PCB. *I agree.*

no. 2 - *Inductors, consists of a copper strip or wire core surrounded by ferrite. Sometimes very little inductive value but just a flat nickel strip covered by ferrite to attenuate rf noise. Those are called beads. * marked as Lxxx on the PCB.

no. 3 - *Hard to tell but I believe these are crystals used in oscillator circuits. Can't read but if they are xtals there will be numbers like 14.318, etc. on them that reflect the frequency. Different numbers than my example but same format. Some gold, some silver.*

no. 4 - *LEDs, (light emitting diodes) Some gold, some silver. Usually when silver it's a high percentage in the alloy.*

no. 5 - *Not sure about these. They appear to possibly be polarized. Larger value capacitors? Tantalum?*

no. 6 - resistors, *Thick film carbon on ceramic substrate. Very little PMs. Possibly silver, ruthenium, palladium.* marked Rxxx on the PCB. comes in many sizes and colors.


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## samuel-a (Jan 15, 2010)

steve, scott muchos gracias :mrgreen: 

well, ruthenium today is 170$ per troy ounce... i wonder if worth harvesting....


steve, somthing intresting about the first HCL wash of the crushed monocap's, after 24 hours in crockpot it came out purple like you saied, when it came back to room temp' the purple cloud stteled down (after 8-10 hours) to the bottom, leaving the solution pale green showed negative for Pd, i still need to check the sediment.

SAMUEL


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## samuel-a (Jan 19, 2010)

steve

do you happen to know if Fe will drop any barium from a solution as a metalic form , solution containing also base metals (CU,Ni,Sn )
or only sodium sulfate will drop it as BaSO4?


thank you
SAMUEL


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## lazersteve (Jan 19, 2010)

Barium forms many insoluble salts, the sulfate is one of them. Add any soluble sulfate and barium sulfate should precipitate. This is assuming you know you have dissolved barium in the solution.

Steve


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## samuel-a (Jan 26, 2010)

Steve, i have tried the AP way.

5 days ago i took 100 gram of monocap's (Edit: un crushed) and throw them in AP (3:1 ratio).
total solution 400 ml.
now, two nights is was on hot plate, and two nights on stirring.
during this time i added more HCL and more peroxide. now the volume is 580-600 ml
it seems that by now 40%-60% of the monocap's had been dissolved (and somewhat reprecipitated)

here are the pictures:





i believe the white powder is a mix of Pd and AgCl (and maybe cordierite)

I'll update when it dissolve completely.


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## lazersteve (Jan 26, 2010)

The solution looks the wrong color, more like dissolved nickel than anything else. 

Do you have DMG on hand? It good for testing Ni and Pd.

The powder maybe anything, silver chloride will react to bright light and darken to a purple color.

Did you test the solution yet with stannous chloride / DMG?

Steve


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## arthur kierski (Jan 26, 2010)

samuel,not wanting to interfere,but to help,i think that the pd is in the solution and the powder is agcl with cordeiryte-----after filtering i would go for pd in the filtrate(solution)----
regards from
Arthur


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## samuel-a (Jan 26, 2010)

i have yeat totest with stannous.
and i don't have DMG.

i also need to add, that i might added to much peroxide... 
before the secund peroxide addition the Dominant color was pale purple and not this dark green....
i have noticed, that each H2O2 that droped inside created deep orange color that faded away when stirring... (indicating maybe on Pd that absorbed to the solution momentarily and reprecipitating)

if it's just nikel then i guess that i'm ok...
if Pd is presence in the solution, then i think i'll leave it in a crock pot until everything is dissolved and test with stannous again.
i'll update once i'll test tomorrow.

thank you guys, i hope this therd will be helpfull to a lot of people reading here.

SAMUEL


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## 2002valkyrie (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi Samual, 
I agree with Steve the color is more like the Hydrochloric leech and rinse. But then again I did a fast AR method. Here is a link to video's of mine before the drop.
http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share...bkFkh77h&shareName=MMS&messageState=RETRIEVED
http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share...b7j8aosU&shareName=MMS&messageState=RETRIEVED


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## lazersteve (Jan 26, 2010)

Tim,

Your tests are definitely positive for Pd.

Sam,

Remember: not all monolithics contain PMs. The newer ones contain mostly nickel with a few exceptions. Monolithics from pre-1997 have the best chances of having PMs.

Steve


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## samuel-a (Jan 27, 2010)

Steve, the green loking solution is positive for Pd, according to my stannous test.

i'll siphon it off and refill with AP 3:1 ratio to dissolve the rest of the monocap's.

i'll upload a picture of the siphoned and filtered solution... i guess it contains also Sn , Ni with the Pd


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## Scott2357 (Jan 29, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> I've got some old videos of me processing the monolithics, I'll try to post them to my website in the near future.
> 
> Expect yields of up to 2.5% Pd by weight for the proper types of monolithics. As I have always stated concerning these items: Not all monolithics contain Pd, those manufactured prior to 1997 are the most likely to contain Pd.
> 
> Steve



Steve, I know you're always very busy but I would love to see those videos. 8) Also, do you know the composition of the post 1997 types that don't have Pd?

Thanks in advance.


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## lazersteve (Jan 30, 2010)

Scott,

Most newer monolithics have nickel and sometimes silver layers in the monolith sandwich.

Steve


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## samuel-a (Feb 1, 2010)

well, on the left side is the first AP run (filterd twice) , on the right is the secund AP run (look like the right color?).
for now it seems that 50%-60% of them had been dissolved and laying on the bottom.








they both seems to contain Pd... where to from here?


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## 2002valkyrie (Feb 1, 2010)

Samual,
Did you boil your mono-caps in hydrochloric acid till the nickle was gone before adding them to AP?


samuel-a said:


> (look like the right color?).


Yes that's the right color. 


samuel-a said:


> they both seems to contain Pd... where to from here?


You should treat them like any other pd containing solution. Steve's video shows how.


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## samuel-a (Feb 1, 2010)

2002valkyrie, on the first time i added them 'as is' to the AP.
id did the first AP in that order:
24 hours on crock pot
24 hours on stirring
24 hours on crock pot
24 hours on stirring
24 hours on crock pot

day six i have changed the AP, from then it's on stirring all the time


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## 2002valkyrie (Feb 1, 2010)

samuel-a said:


> 2002valkyrie, on the first time i added them 'as is' to the AP.
> id did the first AP in that order:
> 24 hours on crock pot
> 24 hours on stirring
> ...


That's a lot of work! I finnished 1lb in 36 hours.
12 hours boil in hydrochloric
H2O rinse
12 hours boil in hydrochloric
H2O rinse
12 hours boil in AuqaRegia
***Start 3 times evaporation ***


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## samuel-a (Feb 1, 2010)

well... the machins do all of the work :mrgreen: 

let me see if i i get it right. (we are talking about un-crushed items)
the first boil will remove Pd along side the base metals - correct?
secund and third remove only Pd ?
what do you do with the water rinses? combine with the HCL leachs?

have you completed this process all the way to a Palladium powder?
how much HCL per lb of monocap's?

thank you for the info
SAMEUL


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## lazersteve (Feb 1, 2010)

Sam,

Valkyrie is right on the money. Use HCl to pre-treat the crushed monolithics. Once the HCl extracts stop showing nickel (deep purple at first, then light blue-green for later extracts), move to AP, HCl-Cl, or AR to digest the Pd. I have also used directly AP on the whole capacitors, but it's way slower.

I have dug up my videos of the process, but it will take me most of the week to get them posted as there are about 35 segments to edit down. The videos cover, harvesting, crushing, nickel extraction, nickel testing, Pd extraction, and Pd testing.

Your next step is to filter the orange red solution until it is 100% free of sediment and suspended particles. Follow that up by watching the Pd videos on my website.

Steve


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## 2002valkyrie (Feb 3, 2010)

Hey Steve,
I just got a few pieces of an old office phone system and busted them open. Are any of these worth messing with? I took one one of the blue caps. and skinned it, then boiled it in hydrochloric for 1 hour - nothing. Boiled it in nitric for 1 hour - nothing. 
Here's the link to pictures of the items in question. Forgive the phone pics. http://s420.photobucket.com/albums/pp287/2002valkyrie/phone system components/?albumview=slideshow


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## butcher (Feb 3, 2010)

sounds like an MOV to me, Im on dial up so couldn't see your picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor


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## lazersteve (Feb 3, 2010)

The photos are of either MOVs or high voltage disc capacitors, not monolithics. 


Monolithics are typically surface mounted devices (no legs).

Steve


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## Scott2357 (Feb 3, 2010)

Valkyrie,

Not sure about those first three types, could be several things. Some part numbers would help alot. However, the yellow radial lead type on your boards that are shaped like the end of a Q-Tip are tantalum.


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## samuel-a (Feb 6, 2010)

steve, please, one clearification about Pd dropping that i couldn't understand from your DVD (and hoke).

do i have to evaporate the Pd bearing solution down to 1/3 - 1/4 of it's original volume and then add water, or to start treat it with ammonium chloride as it is...?

does other metals like nikel and tin in the solution will interfere the Pd drop?


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## lazersteve (Feb 6, 2010)

samuel-a said:


> steve, please, one clearification about Pd dropping that i couldn't understand from your DVD (and hoke).
> 
> do i have to evaporate the Pd bearing solution down to 1/3 - 1/4 of it's original volume and then add water, or to start treat it with ammonium chloride as it is...?
> 
> does other metals like nikel and tin in the solution will interfere the Pd drop?



Sam,

Pd is a little touchy to deal with.

Here are the key points:

1. The solution must be free of sediment of *any* kind. This includes salts and debris. If you are getting salts from HCl-Cl the best route is to precipitate the Pd out with zinc, then redissolve the Pd in 35% nitric, de-noxx to the chloride with HCl, and continue to step 2 below.

2. The solution must be concentrated. The color of the solution should be blood red. You can see the proper color in my Pd video on my website.

3. The solution should be heated to just below boiling.

4. Ammonium chloride is added to the hot solution. Use 1.25 times the weight of expected Pd in NH4Cl. The excess ammonium chloride goes into the water of the solution making the resulting Pd salt less soluble.

5. If the addition of Ammonium chloride forms an orange or yellow precipitate, you may have Pt in the solution which will require the solution to be filtered (vacuum filter preferred) free of the Pt salt. If Pt is removed, the solution should be concentrated again due to the addition of the dilute (15% ) ammonium chloride wash solution used to wash the resulting salt.

6. Add a few crystals of sodium chlorate to the hot solution, stirring with a glass rod, until the fizzing stops. If the Pd does not begin to precipitate, add a few more crystals. Repeat this process until the brick red Pd salt forms. Once the salt begins to form, let the cool and solution settle and note the color. It should end up a light yellow color to pale lime green, depending on the contaminates. Once the salt settles test a small sample of the solution in a test tube with a little more NH4Cl and chlorate. If you still get red powder, add the test tube contents back into the main solution and add more reagents to precipitate the last of the Pd.

I do mine like Hoke suggests, Lou does his a little differently and has an excellent post with pictures on his process.

I hope this clears everything up.

Steve


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## samuel-a (Feb 6, 2010)

thank you steve very very much.

so, i have reduced the volume of the first AP leach (the one that looks dark green in my photos) from 420 ml to around 100 ml, the leach did got some dark red-ish tint to it, once it got cool some salts began to precipitate, i belive i should filter them out, dissolve them in HCL and check for values....


the only ammonium chloride i managed to find is branded "SAL AMMONIAC BLOCK"
see here: http://gormez.net/Hebrew/uploads/Gallery/AMMONIUM CHLORIDE BLOCKS13.JPG
is this good for the job? it is stated that it is ammonium chloride.
the only other option i found is to buy a 55lb bag for 53$ for CP lab grade stuff (to much for me)

Edit: a small search in the forum gave me the answer


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## samuel-a (Feb 9, 2010)

my first time ever Pd dropping (done exactly like on steve DVD) is a great success .

i have reduced the volume of the first AP leach of complete monocap's (look up in my photos, it's the green solution in an erlenmeyer beaker) to around a 1/4 .
filterd, gave a little rinse to the filter with 15% ammonium chloride to get all of the leach down.
heated to aroumd 60-70 Celsius.
added 4.5 grams of ammonium chloride , waited 5 min...
and then started to add a sodium hypochlorite (chlorox) 3% CP.
ended up adding 12 ml of hypochlorite and dropped most of the Pd out of the solution.







Many thanks to the great people in this forum and for you steve 8)


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## samuel-a (Feb 12, 2010)

here it is, fully calcined:






the whole process went well, but with a very disappointing results... only 0.5g of Pd from the main bolk of the AP leach.
i was expecting around 1.5-2.... i didn't weight the red powder, but i belive it was weighing around 7-8 grams.

steve, what is the usual weight ratio between Palladium ammonium chloride and the reduced metal?


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## Platdigger (Feb 12, 2010)

I am not Steve but, Ammen has palladium chloride (PdCL2) at 60 percent metal.


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## lazersteve (Feb 12, 2010)

samuel-a said:


> Steve, what is the usual weight ratio between Palladium ammonium chloride and the reduced metal?



The molecular weight of the Palladium Ammonium Chloride is 284.31 grams per mole. The weight of a mole of Pd is 106.42g. Therefore, if your had a 100% pure palladium salt, free of excess ammonium chloride and other contamination, you should get :

106.42 / 284.31 = 0.374 g of Pd per gram of salt.

Since you started with 7 grams of salt you could expect a theoretical maximum of :

7 x 0.374 = 2.618 grams of Pd.

Losses occur if you heat too much during the calcining as the salt will vaporize along with the ammonium chloride. Your salt looks too orange to me, which may be an indication of excessive ammonium chloride trapped in the salt's structure. To remedy this problem you can dissolve the salt completely in 28% ammonium hydroxide and precipitate the purer yellow powder with HCl. Hoke covers this in detail. Another possible source of losses is calcining in a carbon (ie graphite) dish or heating with a direct torch flame that carbonizes the salt. Carbides of Pd and Pt are volatile.

Steve


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## 2002valkyrie (Feb 12, 2010)

Hey all, I finally got a few breaks from my gold. It comes before Pd! Here is a few pictures of my solution before the drop and of the palladium salt in the filter.


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## samuel-a (Feb 12, 2010)

thank you steve.

the picturs does no justice to the powder, as it was deep red and not orange as it appears in the photo :| 
but good possibility that i used an exess of ammonia... couldn't hurt

anyway, i believe that the calcining i did was ok, i tested the smoke with cold beaker every now and then, and there was no deposits other then white.
all and all it took 5 hours to complete.


this is a very 'magical' process in my eyes, and i wish to evryone to experience it .

Edit: BTW, in my hook book copy, there is missing one page - 178 which is re-purification of red powders.... :?:


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## Oz (Feb 13, 2010)

I am glad to hear the color of that is not representative. It looked like a Pt precipitation contaminated with Pd.

Congradulations


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## samuel-a (Feb 22, 2010)

thank you Oz.

by now i have processed 250 grams of mixed monocap's from cards, CPU's, mother boards, just about everything that looks like a monolithic capacitor, from a relatively new scrap (no more then 15 years old).

and the yield is steady - 0.5% Pd from total mass.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 22, 2010)

samuel-a said:


> thank you Oz.
> 
> by now i have processed 250 grams of mixed monocap's from cards, CPU's, mother boards, just about everything that looks like a monolithic capacitor, from a relatively new scrap (no more then 15 years old).
> 
> and the yield is steady - 0.5% Pd from total mass.



Is that .5% of the weight of the capacitors only?


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## samuel-a (Feb 22, 2010)

yup


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## lazersteve (Feb 22, 2010)

samuel-a said:


> thank you Oz.
> 
> by now i have processed 250 grams of mixed monocap's from cards, CPU's, mother boards, just about everything that looks like a monolithic capacitor, from a relatively new scrap (no more then 15 years old).
> 
> and the yield is steady - 0.5% Pd from total mass.



Sam,

Mixing the various SMD components may be skewing your results downward. I've processed reels of all the same type of capacitors several times and have had yields upwards of 2.5% of the total component mass.

As an experiment you should gather up the monolithics only off the slotted PII and PIII cpu cards. Carefully weigh and process these components without mixing in any other SMD devices or monolithics from other sources. 

Steve


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## samuel-a (Feb 23, 2010)

yes, i'm awar that the mixing it the cause of the downward in yield i'v expirienced.

i had a seller with 220 lb of reels, stright from the factory, and tested positive for Pd, but he backed down....


About the white powder, well, from 250 of monocap's thers about 220 grams of it.
no change with bright lite... no reaction to nitric/HCL-Cl/AR.... what the hack is that :?:
how can i proof it's cordierite or not?


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## JustinNH (Feb 23, 2010)

I'm with ya Sam. I dont have access to enough of a certain type so I put all into a container to process. I will spot check some if there are a lot on a certain board and test with DMG... but otherwise they all go in. I have a solution at my parents house I still need to finish with. Had to leave it there when I got an apartment, but I am closing on a house in a month and should be able to finsih it up :mrgreen:


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## Anonymous (Feb 23, 2010)

Hi Justin,
Hows the snow up your way?
I cant wait to get out prospecting this year, I have made some hand pump sluices for my kids and I am building a 3 inch dredge.

Jim


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## JustinNH (Feb 24, 2010)

james122964 said:


> Hi Justin,
> Hows the snow up your way?
> I cant wait to get out prospecting this year, I have made some hand pump sluices for my kids and I am building a 3 inch dredge.
> 
> Jim



Hey Jim

It is coming down pretty good... but its 35 out and its a wet snow. I think it is going to change over to rain soon and hopefully cancel out the snow we did get.

Yeah, I know what you mean. My buddy and I drove up to the gold panning spot to check it out. There is about a solid foot of ice over most of the river. Good thing its a fast river and once it melts the ice will start to go fast.

Building a dredge? That should be cool! I made a sluice box when I first started but didnt try making the dredge


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## pesco (Aug 25, 2011)

Very interesting topic.

As I wasn't around when it was started I'd like to add few corrections to identification of the elements:

2 - inductors, could also be capacitor, PTC, NTC (termistors), PRG, PRF, contents -> Pt, Pd, Ag, Ti, Ni, Sn,
5 - most likely LC or RF filters, could also be antenna, chock coil, you see this elements mostly in radios/mobiles, contents -> not a clue :mrgreen:
5 - most resistors, could also be NTC, PTC, fuse, contents -> Pt, Pd, Ag, Ti, Ni, Sn

Where I listed "contents" it doesn't mean that every single component will contain all of the elements, but it means that every MIXED batch of the same type of components manufactured by different manufacturers and in different times will contain all the elements listed :mrgreen:

Wide range of possible types of components comes from a simple fact that many are visually indistinguishable and there are only 2 certain ways to find out what the component is :
- having a schematic of disassembled board or having unused components with markings on the reel
- testing each of them -> for masochists only, its like checking every single grain of sugar if it really is sugar before you put it in your tea :mrgreen:


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## samuel-a (Aug 25, 2011)

pesco said:


> Where I listed "contents" it doesn't mean that every single component will contain all of the elements, but it means that every MIXED batch of the same type of components manufactured by different manufacturers and in different times will contain all the elements listed
> 
> Wide range of possible types of components comes from a simple fact that many are visually indistinguishable and there are only 2 certain ways to find out what the component is :
> - having a schematic of disassembled board or having unused components with markings on the reel
> - testing each of them -> for masochists only, its like checking every single grain of sugar if it really is sugar before you put it in your tea



You have said it as best as anyone could.

Thank you for the addition.

Iv'e recently sampled MLCC's, hopefully in a few days i could share the results.


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## pesco (Aug 25, 2011)

I forgot to include Au above - you might find traces of it in resistors.


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## lazersteve (Aug 25, 2011)

It's easy enough to test common boards types for precious metal bearing surface mounted devices (SMDs) and keep a notebook of the board makes that have the good parts on them.

For example you can test the various smd's from slotted style cpus and determine which parts contain the pms on them. All similar make and model boards should have the same smds used in their manufacture. The key to finding the smds with pms is to find those smds manufactured in the same year, by the same manufacturer, for the same purpose.

As I've stated numerous times: proper sorting of your escrap leads to more accurate yield data and repeatable results. 

Steve


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