# Catalytic Convertor Recovery Data



## lazersteve

Here's an excellent study on the recovery of PGMs from cats. They quantitatively test various dissolutions and sodium peroxide fusion. Everything is summed up in nice tables listing the different types of cats and the associated yields for each type of process. Lots of data including yields.

Check it out.

Cat Contents

Take the time to study this one and you'll learn a lot.

Steve


----------



## Lou

Excellent, thanks Steve!


----------



## markqf1

I would say you are definitely on it.
Great link!
Thx,

Mark


----------



## Froggy

Thx, steve


----------



## daveerf

Excellent article Steve, thanks.

Here's a link to an in depth description of the ICP-MS process.

http://tinyurl.com/32bysq

....and according to that article you posted Steve, the Alkali Fusion sampling method returned the best results. Here's a link to a small table top machine that makes a wonderful addition to an ICP-MS for the Alkali Fusion process. 

http://tinyurl.com/2jkmnh

It would be nice if Inco Ltd. would allow us to use their lab lol


----------



## markqf1

Did I understand correctly on pages 25-26, that cupelling with lead will not grab the rh ?
Is he saying to first cupel material with nickel sulfide and then cupel the slag with lead and add the two together?


----------



## Irons

markqf1 said:


> Did I understand correctly on pages 25-26, that cupelling with lead will not grab the rh ?
> Is he saying to first cupel material with nickel sulfide and then cupel the slag with lead and add the two together?



Gold is the best Rh collector. Silver won't work as a collector of Rh.

Using Lead for anything is a bad idea. It has a high vapor pressure and no matter how careful you are, some will evaporate.


----------



## loco

since gold is the best RH collector is there another metal less costly that will work well to collect?equal to or better than silver? and thanks Irons for your expierence and insight.

-Rich


----------



## Irons

loco said:


> since gold is the best RH collector is there another metal less costly that will work well to collect?equal to or better than silver? and thanks Irons for your expierence and insight.
> 
> -Rich



Fortunately, because Gold doesn't oxidize when molten, it doesn't develop an oxide film to prevent the minute particles of Rhodium from bonding and becoming alloyed with the Gold.

It's not that big of a deal to use Gold as a scavenger for Rh since, with good lab technique, all of it will be recovered for reuse. The Gold Rhodium alloy is inquarted with Silver and treated like any scrap gold. The precipitated Gold powder that is the end product can be remixed with another batch of Rh concentrate and cycled again. The Rh powder remains as residue when the Gold sponge is digested.

This is one reason why Rhodium is so expensive. It's a very labor intensive process.


----------



## Anonymous

I read that the 04 navigator has a resell value of something like $750 because of the PGM content. Is that just the 04 model or is that all years since the 04 model or does anyone know?


----------



## markqf1

Irons,
You are a man of much chemistry knowledge and I am not.
You're comments didn't really answer my question about capturing the rh
in the cupel of a fire assay.
As I have one ordered for my material, I want to make sure the rh content is included.
I know your thoughts on lead... and there pretty much the same as mine.
How should I tell them to fire assay my material to insure that the rh is captured?
Also, I thought the collector was consumed in the cupel....?


----------



## Irons

markqf1 said:


> Irons,
> You are a man of much chemistry knowledge and I am not.
> You're comments didn't really answer my question about capturing the rh
> in the cupel of a fire assay.
> As I have one ordered for my material, I want to make sure the rh content is included.
> I know your thoughts on lead... and there pretty much the same as mine.
> How should I tell them to fire assay my material to insure that the rh is captured?
> Also, I thought the collector was consumed in the cupel....?



Lead reacts chemically with the cupel and is absorbed. Gold does not. 

Fire assay is an art as well as a sciencel and Rhodium is about the toughest precious metal to assay accurately. It's not something you can do in your garage in a weekend. I'm not trying to discourage you but just trying to explain the reality of the situation.

I know enough to know that I don't have the equipment or the skills to do a Rhodium assay on my own. I would recommend you send your material to a reputable firm such as Ledoux and let them worry about the technique.

http://www.ledoux.com/lab.html


----------



## markqf1

Thx Irons,
When I said I had ordered one for my material.... what I meant to say is I have sent off a sample for assay by action mining.
I just want to make sure that they are using a collector that will capture the rh as well as the pt and pd.
Yea, I'm a long way from trying it at home!

Mark


----------



## Irons

markqf1 said:


> Thx Irons,
> When I said I had ordered one for my material.... what I meant to say is I have sent off a sample for assay by action mining.
> I just want to make sure that they are using a collector that will capture the rh as well as the pt and pd.
> Yea, I'm a long way from trying it at home!
> 
> Mark



The price you get for the PGMs is dependent on the quality and reliability of the assay.

It's like going to court. You can get a good attorney to represent you, or you can do it on the cheap.
it would be interesting to get assays of a given material from different assayers and compare the results. Unfortunately, it would be very expensive.

If I were going to sell a substantial quantity of metal, I would use Ledoux as an umpire, that way, both I and the refiner could negotiate from an assay of known reliability and quality.

Read my sig.


----------



## goldsilverpro

I agree with Irons. We used to use Ledoux when we took tonage lots of circuit boards to ASARCO in East Helena, Montana. Ledoux even had a permanent office in the ASARCO facility. They witnessed the process, took samples, assayed the samples, and umpired the lots. Expensive, but the yields were always excellent.


----------



## markqf1

Thanks guys,
I'm on it!
Mark


----------



## markqf1

Thx guys,
Its hard for the little guy to get wedged in the crack.

Mark


----------



## Anonymous

Hi I am looking for some help on recovering the pgm from cats i have heard of roasting the cataylatic converter but when i called shore they told me to make aqua regia and heat it and put the honey comb in it would this be the best way or should i do it a diffrent way? Any help would be appreciated


----------



## lazersteve

AR works for cats, but you need a lot of AR as compared to the amount of PGMs you will be dissolving. 

I use HCl-Cl plus heat. It's cheaper than AR and works just as well. As an added advantage you don't have to boil off the nitric when you are done. Remember add the clorox in very small does and give it plenty of time to work.

A single honeycomb will fit in a regular coffee pot placed with the holes up. Cover it with HCl and add 1/8 cup of clorox and begin heating. Every thirty minutes add another 1/8 cup of clorox. Heat to 60C-100C.

Pour the clorox down into the holes of the honeycomb so the chlorine boils thru the structure.

Heat for two to three hours using this process adding clorox every half hour. The liquid level should never go below the top of the honeycomb.

Rinse the liquid out with several washes of water and precipitate as normal for PGMs.

A second treatment may yield more PGMs.

Do this in a well ventilated area.

Steve


----------



## Ian_B

Steve, would you then Precipitate the PGM's with zinc or iron and if so would the precipitation be done quite quick or do you leave you dropping agent in the solution for a while?

one last question what would be your yeilds on dried PGM precipitate from the above method in the coffee pot?

I do uderstand that it can very by alot depending on what the cat is off of but just curious, you know how it is  

thanks in advance


----------



## Rag and Bone

Is there any pre-treament to processing the honeycomb in HCl-clorox? 

Would removing some base metal with hot HCl have any benefit?


----------



## chipperchop

I just found you guys on the net and would like your opinion of people of your educational level on this subject..

So we acquired some sulfide ore.. stats are as follows and dont know what to do for the next step 
sell , set up production, capital needed, creditable refineries that can deal with PGM?

how or who do we take this to production?
or sell to ?
in what state/form ?

Thanks
Chip


Type: Hand-picked secondary crushed sulfide ore
Amount: 500 tn (+/-)
Contents: Platinum Group Metals = Pt/Pd/Rh// Au/Ag

Preliminary Bench Test Assay (minimum) Recovery Results:

Au (Gold) 28.2 troy oz/tn
Pt (Platinum) 48.0 troy oz/tn
Pd (Palladium) 41.8 troy oz/tn
Rh (Rhodium) 57.9 troy oz/tn


----------



## Lou

Ok, are we trolling?


----------



## Scott2357

Yeah, all posts with the same subject line and the ore assay is amazing... "Rh (Rhodium) 57.9 troy oz/tn" not to mention the rest.


----------



## chipperchop

I click the subpost first then I found the right category 
sorry for the post I could not undo it


----------



## NobleMetalsRecovery

Are they still doing the boards for people? What is an example of a yield on some PC boards?


----------



## qst42know

As I understand Pd is soluable in Hcl. However won't you be leaving Pt behind by skipping the boiling in AR?


----------



## Lou

Don't expect it to dissolve in bulk. As a powder you may have limited success.


----------



## AuMINIMayhem

Irons said:


> Fire assay is an art as well as a sciencel and Rhodium is about the toughest precious metal to assay accurately. It's not something you can do in your garage in a weekend. I'm not trying to discourage you but just trying to explain the reality of the situation.http://www.ledoux.com/lab.html



Hence the $7900 / troy ounce price tag.. 

(spot price as of today at 1.53pm EST)

I'm always watching those spot prices.... they're a great indicator of the current state of the economy, a good thing to watch when you're dabbling in the stock market 

Derek


----------



## Lino1406

10, to Rhodium:1 will absorb rhodium


----------



## markqf1

Tell us more?
What's the procedure?
How much contaminate?

Mark


----------



## Lino1406

Contact the rhodium with melted tin


----------



## markqf1

Some kind of amalgamation?
How do you then seperate the tin from the rh?

Mark


----------



## Lino1406

That's the easy part, e.g. boyl with HCl


----------



## markqf1

Does the molten tin collect pt, pd and gold as well?
I know lead is not a good collector of rh.

Thanks,

Mark


----------



## Lino1406

For gold (at least)


----------



## Chumbawamba

Lino, perhaps you might want to try paragraphs to discuss this particular technique rather than just short sentences here and there?


----------



## Rhodium

It’s a language barrier thing for him. We usually decipher it.


----------



## Lino1406

Tin (molten) baths in the printed circuits
industry deteriorate by contact with gold
therefore it is understood gold is soluble in tin


----------



## skippy

I'm wondering if anyone has any recovery data for aftermarket cats. Have you processed any LazerSteve? Its hard to believe they are as barren as their pricing suggest. 

I'm also looking for recovery data on foil converters too.


----------



## jimdoc

Check out this Ebay listing;
http://cgi.ebay.com/How-to-buy-different-types-of-catalytic-converter-scrap_W0QQitemZ170454351303QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27afdefdc7

I can't see how he gets away with the $18.95 shipping charge when he emails it to you. And he says right in the ad that it is to save Ebay fees. He deserves to have it posted online for free (if its worth it).

Jim


----------



## butcher

seems to me he wants $20.00, for the copy, and if he puts buy it now for $1, plus shipping he will sell more.


----------



## goldsilverpro

When I was going to sell my book on Ebay, I found that they now have rules against selling purely downloadable "digital delivery" material except as a listing on a Classified Ad. For a normal listing, you now have to ship something to to the customer, like a DVD. This guy, in China, is selling a bunch of different books as pdf email attachments and is breaking the Ebay rules, as I understand it. Maybe the shipping charges allows him to circumvent this but I doubt it.


----------



## plamenppp

What is the approximate purity of the PGMs in %, extracted from cats using Steve's way? 
Is it necessary to use hydrogen torch for melting the PGMs? I can not find any in my country 
How bad will it be if I use propane/O2 torch? Will it be better if I use a home made mini-firebrick furnance with a PGM melting dish inside and a propane/O2 torch (or maybe two of them :twisted: )?


----------



## Oz

plamenppp said:


> What is the approximate purity of the PGMs in %, extracted from cats using Steve's way?



First off you should delete the new thread you started “cats again”, as asking the same question in 2 places only muddies the forum. 

Part of why you may have not received a response to this is it makes no sense (at least to me). Do you wish to know the percentage of PGM in a converter? They are all different. Do you want to know the percentage of PGM that is soluble? Do you wish to know what percent is PGM vs. a contaminate in such a solution. I would guess that you are asking about finished purity, and that depends on how you choose to precipitate them from the chloride solution Steve uses as well as how adept you are at doing it. Not understanding the question makes it hard to help.

As to torches, since your profile does not show your country it is hard to advise as to what alternatives are available to you. Generally speaking though the melting of PGMs for sale will only hurt you. Buyers are not inclined to take your word for it as to purity which means they will have to re-digest them in order for them to determine PGM content, this is very slow for bars and ingots (boil a chunk of platinum in AR and you will understand). For this reason the best way to sell it as elemental is as a sponge or selling the salts from precipitations.


----------



## nickvc

Oz, i think we must be lucky here in the UK as bars with a reliable assay report are easy to trade,i suppose the existence of the Assay Offices probably helps.Having read Harolds experience over his PGMs i wouldnt trade a gram of metal without an assay to stop the refiners or as GSP calls them the last liars claiming non existent water, contaminants or melting losses :roll:


----------



## plamenppp

Oz said:


> plamenppp said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the approximate purity of the PGMs in %, extracted from cats using Steve's way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess that you are asking about finished purity, and that depends on how you choose to precipitate them from the chloride solution Steve uses as well as how adept you are at doing it.
> 
> As to torches, since your profile ...
Click to expand...


I am asking about finished purity, not about contents of PGM in a cat. Most of the goldsmiths I know have never seen platinum of rhodium or palladium. They don't know how to work with it to make jewels but they want to buy platinum with purity higher than 98%. And as long as they have no market for pt jewels they will resell the in Turkey, I think.

I am from Bulgaria - only 7 000 000 people. It is hard to find many goods from our market. I had to import some of the equipment. I couldn't find a vacuum filtering system anywhere. I ordered the cone flask from Germany and a friend promised me to deliver a funnel from a school (where they do not make experiments in class anymore). I will have to make the rubber gasket myself. I still haven't found the handpump.


----------



## Oz

nickvc said:


> Oz, i think we must be lucky here in the UK as bars with a reliable assay report are easy to trade,i suppose the existence of the Assay Offices probably helps



Selling based on assay would certainly change things as long as your customer trusts the assay office you used. For many though the cost of a proper PGM assay takes much of the profit away here in the US unless you are dealing in a decent number of ounces at a time.


----------



## Oz

plamenppp said:


> Oz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am asking about finished purity, not about contents of PGM in a cat
Click to expand...


In that case it would help to know how you plan on precipitating your values from solution. Not knowing that it is impossible to even guess what purity you may achieve. I believe Steve uses zinc as his first step in removing values from the solution, in which case you will have mixed elemental PGMs.


----------



## nickvc

Oz said:


> nickvc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oz, i think we must be lucky here in the UK as bars with a reliable assay report are easy to trade,i suppose the existence of the Assay Offices probably helps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selling based on assay would certainly change things as long as your customer trusts the assay office you used. For many though the cost of a proper PGM assay takes much of the profit away here in the US unless you are dealing in a decent number of ounces at a time.
Click to expand...

Oz i use a company called Guardian Laboratories, i think a gold platinum palladium assay is about £50 or $75 and the assay is trusted by the local refiners so the cost is well worth while if you can get a good melt.They would assay for you if you can get them samples and im sure payment could be arranged somehow , the price over here is around 93% of spot for that sort of melted bar.


----------



## Buzz

Plamen,

Here is a link to a Hand Vacuum Pump that I use.

It's the same one that Lazersteve uses in his DVD's

http://tinyurl.com/y3lsq9n

Regards
Buzz


----------



## Oz

Nick,
Thanks for offering to set me up with them but as I had mentioned small amounts are not worth having assayed. Thankfully I have private buyers for large and small amounts.

Being able to sell PGM at 93% of spot is not bad but if you sell an ounce at a time your assay fee of $75 becomes an additional loss of almost 14% of spot for palladium and 4.4% for platinum. This gives you a final payout of 88.6% for platinum and 79% for palladium. It may be better to build some trusting relationships with buyers that will not require assays.


----------



## nickvc

Oz said:


> Nick,
> Thanks for offering to set me up with them but as I had mentioned small amounts are not worth having assayed. Thankfully I have private buyers for large and small amounts.
> 
> Being able to sell PGM at 93% of spot is not bad but if you sell an ounce at a time your assay fee of $75 becomes an additional loss of almost 14% of spot for palladium and 4.4% for platinum. This gives you a final payout of 88.6% for platinum and 79% for palladium. It may be better to build some trusting relationships with buyers that will not require assays.


 Oz if you only have one element to assay its a lot cheaper but i never went that far with mixed PGMs and gold i just melted it together and traded a mixed bar,i must admit if you trade quantities of material that you personally have refined then your approach may well be the best one,when i was refining full time virtually all my material was melt and assayed before refining actually began, basically to allow transparency for both the customer and myself,i guess old habits die hard.


----------



## Oz

nickvc said:


> I guess old habits die hard.



You did what was right for you and your customer in your circumstance, we live in different countries, perhaps we gave some people perspective in our dialog. 

I have to ask, how black is your sky?


----------



## Buzz

The sky in the UK is the usual blue but the temperatures are definately lower than normal.
Can't see the ash cloud at all from here.

All the aircraft are still grounded too.


----------



## nickvc

Buzz said:


> The sky in the UK is the usual blue but the temperatures are definately lower than normal.
> Can't see the ash cloud at all from here.
> 
> All the aircraft are still grounded too.


Yeah as Buzz stated its business as usual here,no planes in or out of the UK well not for the next 24 hours but its just like having BA on strike :lol: The offer for assaying was meant for anyone interested Oz,you obviously are very happy with your present deal, and i understand that you have a good relationship with your buyers and everyone is pleased so why change,i must admit you can spend a fortune chasing an extra dollar  May i say i have no financial interest in Guardian Laboratories so it matters not to me if people use them or not.


----------



## jimdoc

Story on palladium use in converters;

http://www.kitco.com/reports/terry_june42010.html


The increase in industrial trucks will be important, too, he said, because they need more palladium in their catalytic converters. Light vehicles use about 4 grams of palladium in their emission control devices, while larger vehicles such as a Ford F-150 or a Chevrolet Silverado use about 16 grams. "So the loading of palladium quadruples for the average vehicle with bigger motors," Swinoga said.

Jim


----------



## AuMINIMayhem

hey guys.. been a while. 

going back to the very first post in this thread, I've been reading the information on that link and it looks like from what I am reading, the honeycomb type converters are a cordierite matrix coated in aluminum oxid with the pgm's on the Al2O3 surface.... just a thought, but if you could get under the pgm's, could you not digest the Al2O3 substrate (possibly with something alkaline such as lye)?

perhaps the pgms would then seperate from the cordierite h/c and fall to the bottom at which point they could be leached in the usual way... 

if that's possible, I would think it would be easier to leach a small batch of whatever flakes off the honeycombs than submerging the whole h/c in whatever leach method you prefer..

the bead type apparently look to be solid Al2O3 which ought to be even easier to digest..


just looking at this from a different angle and thinking outloud, so don't mind me... (I tend to do that.. :mrgreen: )


----------



## AuMINIMayhem

...of course now I'm reading about "microwave assisted dissolution" and going "hmmmmm.... ok, who's gonna try THAT one first? I think I'll pass on that.." :mrgreen:


----------



## Lou

Already tried it.

Forget about microwave dissolution en masse.


Lou


----------



## amosfella

Oz said:


> ....Generally speaking though the melting of PGMs for sale will only hurt you. Buyers are not inclined to take your word for it as to purity which means they will have to re-digest them in order for them to determine PGM content, this is very slow for bars and ingots (boil a chunk of platinum in AR and you will understand). For this reason the best way to sell it as elemental is as a sponge or selling the salts from precipitations.


Would one not be able to make the PGM into flake much the same way that gold flake is made?? I'm assuming that in flake form, the PGM would be much easier to digest.


----------



## amosfella

On thing of interest I heard recently from a guy who I know who does his own stuff. He sent a bunch of smashed up cat converter dust to a friend with a mass spec, and the mass spec revealed a fairly large quantity of silver... He had it assayed, and the assay said about half an oz of silver in a single cat.
He could have just been saying this, but I think it's unlikely, as he was somewhat drunk, and truth is the drunk's native language...


----------



## butcher

maybe the drunk did not part his assay? or dumped some silver into his lot while he was mixing chemical? I have never heard of silver in automobile catalyst material's.

I would also think that you can make platinum group flake but why? it seems it would take specialized equiptment and seems to me more chance of loss of metals, my guess it would be a lot of work and waste of money and time, if a buyer will take salts or sponge that would seem much easier.


----------



## amosfella

I have no idea about the assay. I was just passing on the info, seeing if others had tested for it.

As for making shot, I was planning to melt the catalyst, and metals, then pour slowly over ice to make acid dissolving much easier and quicker.


----------



## qst42know

The pgm's are already finely dispersed, you will get no benefit trying to get shot or flakes.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

amosfella said:


> then pour slowly over ice to make acid dissolving much easier and quicker.



Doubtful that will work. When your gold first hits the ice it will solidify and the rest of your gold will pile on top of it. You will not end up with flakes but with a big glob. And then it is back to square 1.

You can put ice in your water to cool it faster but it really isn't necessary.


----------



## Harold_V

Barren Realms 007 said:


> amosfella said:
> 
> 
> 
> then pour slowly over ice to make acid dissolving much easier and quicker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doubtful that will work. When your gold first hits the ice it will solidify and the rest of your gold will pile on top of it. You will not end up with flakes but with a big glob. And then it is back to square 1.
Click to expand...

Man, you said a mouth full. I had a few experiences where I poured molten inquarted gold/silver to a deep bucket of water, and poured too fast. You end up with exactly that which you described. Luckily, I could break it up enough to get it in to a 4,000 ml beaker in each case. 

To avoid creating soldered pieces when pouring inquarted metal, do two things. Use the coldest water you can get, or add some ice if there's a lot to pour, and pour a thin stream, moving about constantly. If you pour in one place, a superheated channel develops, allowing molten metal to go clear to the bottom without freezing. That's really not a good thing. 

Harold


----------



## atseven58

I to would like to make an attempt at refining platinun from what I believe is monalithic catalytic converters that have been crushed and possibly burnt and the final product is brown powder like fine dust or dirt looking material. I have an oppertunity to get up to 500lbs from a junkyard guy. One refiner said they could get 1 toz pt and 1.3 toz of paladium or rodium, cant remember but is was for every 100lbs. Does anyone know of anyone or business I could send a pound or two too to have a true analasys? Or many even process the stuff. As a refiner of some precious metals, I run up on stuff like this from time to time. Pleas HELP!!!


----------



## skippy

I'd be concerned about getting a good sample. You take a bit off the top and who is to say that it's at all representative of the other 499 pounds.
I might take a sample by sticking a pipe deep into the material to hopefully get a nice selection of any possible strata. Then take this sample and either have it assayed, or do some rough testing on it. 
Leach the sample in 10:1 HCl:30% H2O2 at room temperature and this will pretty quickly dissolve the palladium and platinum. Ground up material might contain a lot of base metal contamination, so be careful, as the reaction might get out of hand - I'd let the material sit for a bit in straight HCl to dissolve any base metals. 

Usually I can get a reasonable idea of the grade of the material by the colour that the peroxide leach solution develops, assuming base metals don't change the colour too much. 
A nice deep red or brown colour after the solution clarifies is a very good sign. Orange is decent. Yellow is usually pretty weak. I'd confirm this with stannous chloride testing, looking for very deep stannous reactions. At this point depending on the results I might feel comfortable paying a low price for the material on the spot, without a real assay. Even if I thought it was excellent material, I don't think it would be advisable to pay more than $8-10 a pound. With a rich looking solution, and deep stannous colours, you'd be unlikely, in my opinion, to come up on the losing end at that sort of price, and the seller should be satisfied. 

You could get a real assay, but in between sampling and your receiving the assay who has possession of the 500lbs and will it be tampered with? Maybe you could put seals on the container, if the seller is agreeable to you holding onto the material. 
Whoever buys the material from you will want to have their own assay done anyways. At which point your own earlier assay is only a way to tell if you got burned.

As far as buyers for this sort of quanitity, I remember EDI gold said they could do this. They quoted reasonable payouts too.


----------



## Tomac1

So according to this report, if I didn't mess up on my conversion, on average, per every pound of honeycomb, you can recover about 1.25grams of platinum, I forgot the other PGMs.


----------



## butcher

All I notice in your question is one word we do not need here on the forum, we have ladies and young people reading our posts; let's speak like we would in their presence.

Please edit your posts so we can give you an intelligent answer.


----------



## steyr223

Are these figures still good

Thanks steyr223 rob


----------



## solar_plasma

Is it possible, that a honey comb that lookes completely new tests absolutely negative for PGMs? Do honey combs exist, which contain other metals than PGMs or is it a fake?

I bought a comb 15x15x30 cm³, 2,6 kg for 1€+6€ shipping on ebay, it was placed in a wrong category, so I saw the [stt]change[/stt]chanceto make a good deal without any risc. I made a quick test on a sample with undefined AR. Next days negative...ok, maybe still too much oxidizer. Vaporized, still nothing. Placed the whole comb in 1l HCl 25%/chlorox, some days without heat, still negative. Next apprroach: I will take a bigger sample and heat it in AR for some hours. 

Do honey combs exist which only contain rhodium, so it is hard to dissolve anything of it?

edit: my stannous works fine on my "standard" platinum solution


----------



## Platdigger

Sure Solar, there are combs that have been leached or gas phased already.
Hope this is not the case with yours.
Haven't heard of any with rh and no pt, not to say they are not out there.


----------



## solar_plasma

Thanks for quick reply. Btw the solution from the comb is yellow (much like iron) and turns colourless with my stannous.


----------



## steyr223

solar how are you 
I will be back on in a couple of days and will explain

for now I get cats that are brand new from the manufacturer that have no values at all
they have been tested

that's why I get them :mrgreen: 

they are called blanks
they look new ,smell new and feel new and they are honeycombs

hope this helps 
thanks steyr223


----------



## moose7802

Rob your back! Hope you're doing okay

Tyler


----------



## kurtak

steyr223 said:


> solar how are you
> I will be back on in a couple of days and will explain
> 
> for now I get cats that are brand new from the manufacturer that have no values at all
> they have been tested
> 
> that's why I get them :mrgreen:
> 
> they are called blanks
> they look new ,smell new and feel new and they are honeycombs
> 
> hope this helps
> thanks steyr223



interesting - so what do you do with them if there are no values in them ? Why are they blanks in the first place ?

Kurt


----------



## solar_plasma

steyr223 said:


> solar how are you
> I will be back on in a couple of days and will explain
> 
> for now I get cats that are brand new from the manufacturer that have no values at all
> they have been tested
> 
> that's why I get them :mrgreen:
> 
> they are called blanks
> they look new ,smell new and feel new and they are honeycombs
> 
> hope this helps
> thanks steyr223



Thanks, I am fine, all bad people are 

That is a perfect description of what I have, brand new comb without any smell, even the package looked like it came directly from the plant...and there is absolutely nothing precious in it, not even traces. I think I will not throw it away, maybe I will use it as a kind of refractory clay for the place where I melt my buttons. ...chamotte is quite expensive in small amounts, so it was a good deal :lol:


----------



## steyr223

Tyler yes i am back thanks
I. Am ok i broke my last phone and decided
I liked not being called 
:lol: 
Plus i ran out of my stock but i am behind again 
I also was getting burned out there were no mew posts
For a while.

Seems like everyone pretty much arrived at a new. Education level and doesn't need to ask for much help
Like a few years back when you couldn't even keep up 
With reading all the crys for help 

Or ? Maybe thats just my perception 

Any how i got a new phone and i started a new process

So um tyler did you set up the incinerator yet


Kurt um i ..a..well theres a muffler shop that buys them
I dont know why they know there blanks

Maybe there in cahoots with the smog guys,thats the only
Way i can see that working 
They dont do enough to. Mix them with a big load

Solar whats chamotte?

Thanks steyr223


----------



## solar_plasma

> Solar whats chamotte?



the kind of stone you use inside a fire place, I found the term in the english dictionairy, so it must be a common term in some places in the angle-saxon space.


----------



## Ddwdave

Hey guys. I'm new as to this.really new.. Decided last week I wanted precious metals, this week I have gold flakes. But jumping too deep. 
Currenty trying to refine gold from ram fingers. 
But really want to refine catalytic converters. 
So far so good with the Gold. 
I mixed 800ml hcl with 800ml peroxide. 
And have gold flakes ready for next process(aqua regia?) 
Hcl + nitric acid do dissolve gold... 
The only reason I'm looking into this, is because I have an easy access to cheap catalytic converters, and wanted to refine them.... 
After reading the guide above, I noticed my honeycomb matrix is a difficult thing to refine with the pgm not all being fully disolvable ect ect(starts talking language I don't understand) . But I have made a ball mill to grind honeycomb to fine powder and have a 60 mesh sieve... After that is (aqua regia?)
because it's readily available, should I look into a trusted refinery to refine the powders? , or look into learning and refining myself.(heard it was hard to trust) . I get the idea, but after reading guide. I'll hit a Wall quick.. But extremely interested, seeing as my gold experiment is turning out good.... 

Oh, can I reuse the hcl+peroxide solution for more ram fingers? If so, what do I need to do before I pour it into new fingers... Or new mix.


----------



## nickvc

Welcome to the forum.
In my honest opinion you want to stay away from refining cats as all PGM salts which is what they become when you dissolve them are highly toxic, the other problem is that you will never ever get all the values out with wet refining, some won't dissolve at all, those that do will leave traces in the sludge which then becomes toxic waste which you have to deal with properly to make them safe to dispose of.
If you can buy cats cheap enough I would suggest simply sell them on and use the profit to buy equipment and better and easier material to recover and refine, this really isn't the material to start your refining apprenticeship, as an aside I wouldn't even do them myself and I have been around refining for over 40 years now.


----------



## jason_recliner

Hi Dave
I'd also like to extend a welcome in. +1 on what Nick says about the cat converters. Platinum Group Metals (PGM) can be very nasty. I don't wish to insult you (at least until I know you better) but the questions you ask demonstrate that you're better to just move them on. For what it's worth, so too would I be.

Now, you're also using too much peroxide with your RAM fingers. A bit of reading here will show you that you only need a capful (if any, I don't) to start you off. Using 1:1 could give you a fair bit of brown/black powder at the bottom of your solution that is actually gold.

In a very vague nutshell, when you have more RAM fingers, just put them in your previous copper chloride leach solution and allow as much air to get at it as possible. Do not add more peroxide. If you can throw in a small aquarium air stone, the added oxygen will mean it processes more quickly, without the risk of dissolving gold that peroxide brings.


----------



## Ddwdave

jason_recliner said:


> Hi Dave
> I'd also like to extend a welcome in. +1 on what Nick says about the cat converters. Platinum Group Metals (PGM) can be very nasty. I don't wish to insult you (at least until I know you better) but the questions you ask demonstrate that you're better to just move them on. For what it's worth, so too would I be.
> 
> Now, you're also using too much peroxide with your RAM fingers. A bit of reading here will show you that you only need a capful (if any, I don't) to start you off. Using 1:1 could give you a fair bit of brown/black powder at the bottom of your solution that is actually gold.
> 
> In a very vague nutshell, when you have more RAM fingers, just put them in your previous copper chloride leach solution and allow as much air to get at it as possible. Do not add more peroxide. If you can throw in a small aquarium air stone, the added oxygen will mean it processes more quickly, without the risk of dissolving gold that peroxide brings.



Good enough info for me to halt on the cats thank you two.
Correct I don't know much and wanted to me sure the cat pgm refinery is out of my obvious league. But heard I call crush it all through my ball mill and just sell it like that.. 

As for the Gold.. 1:1 was purely experimental as when I was researching, I didn't find this forum(wish I did) 
Everything I found claimed 2:1 3:1 1:1..
so I just guessed the ratio was depending on how long fast you plan on processing the Gold. I let the 1:1 sit for 21hours...filtered the green solution, leaving ram and gold behind.... No black residue(pure luck) 
I do understand(after discovering this forum), I probably dissolved some gold by using too much peroxide. (experiment with 2kg ram fingers) and read I can recover it,. currently have 1.91g flakes of first batch wash.. Will add baking powder to hcl+peroxide and dispose.. Start next experiment batch with 2:1... I want to basically aim filter a batch and start a new batch daily. Have batches sitting while I'm at work.. When you say cap full, what do you mean... If I add 800ml hcl. I ad 20-40ml peroxide? ... 

Thank you guys again.. Answered my questions on point

Here's a few pics of the batch. Let me know if things look wrong.... The acid is green.. Just looks black because Red bucket.


----------



## Ddwdave

Forgo to add..... I have more Fingers... So I can just tip into used green acid? 
I sit bucket of mix out side in the sun with no lid during process, at night. In my shed. No lid... Can just do that again?..and that reactivate it..... 

Sorry.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Wear gloves.

Dave


----------



## upcyclist

When you say "1:1", do you mean HCl to peroxide? Wow. Way too much. A cap full of peroxide from whatever bottle it came in is fine, just to kick off the reaction, then use an aquarium bubbler to supply continued oxygen for the reaction. Some folks don't use any and just let the bubbler do its thing. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Ddwdave

Yep I wear gloves.. And mask and goggles.. That was next day. 



upcyclist said:


> When you say "1:1", do you mean HCl to peroxide? Wow. Way too much. A cap full of peroxide from whatever bottle it came in is fine, just to kick off the reaction, then use an aquarium bubbler to supply continued oxygen for the reaction. Some folks don't use any and just let the bubbler do its thing.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


I fully get it now..I'm basically waisting peroxide. Lol. 
I don't have a bubbler.. But I'm guessing it's a fish tank pump with a pumice stone? I'll get one, especially if it means less peroxide.. @ $10 a litre, I think I'll do it the way this forum says.... 
Thank you all. Tonight will test a cap wash


----------



## upcyclist

Yup, a bubbler and an aquarium stone from Walmart won't set you back much.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using Tapatalk, possibly while under the influence of alcohol.


----------



## Ddwdave

One more question.... 

Can I put my whole CPUs in with ram finger? 
Or do I have to break it up first.. 


Pics of CPUs...
Prefer not to have to break them up


----------



## jason_recliner

Once you have green leach, you never need peroxide again. Copper II chloride leach lasts effectively forever. You only need remove the excess copper when it becomes saturated. This can be by adding more HCl, or by chilling it and decanting it off the powders that form.

Process CPU and RAM fingers separately. Include only like types in a batch, but make each batch the largest you can.

Finally, if you intend making so much of this, you have to treat and dispose of it properly. Adding "baking powder", by which you probably meant baking soda, is not good enough. It's insufficient to merely neutralize the pH. You will ultimately do that, but first you must remove the toxic chlorides of copper, tin, lead, nickel, etc. 
Please see the "Dealing with Waste" thread.


----------



## Ddwdave

No worries. . Reusing batch for CPUs now. Didn't add extra peroxide. 
Also doing a new wash, less peroxide. So can reuse a lesser ratio batch.. 
There a waste disposal place here I can go to dispose of it.. 
I am looking at doing it on a big scale and buying a gravity machine. Just experimenting and researching at the moment 
I'm also pulling all monolithic capacitors off until I get a kg. As I heard it can yield up to 20g of palladium.. Long process, but could I pluck and sell the capacitors to a refiner and make a profit?
.. 
Will be having a read over the forum during the weekend when I'm not working. And will look into The hokes book


----------



## jimdoc

Some catalytic converter and particulate filter info.

Car Mechanics - February 2018

https://downmagaz.com/car_magazine_moto/137603-car-mechanics-022018.html


----------



## Smack

One of my trucks is a 04 GMC 5.3L and I had to change out the Y-pipe that also contains the catalytic converters because the cat. on the left bank plugged up. Took the whole Y-pipe to the local scrap yard just to see where they were with pricing. They told me those cats. were at $21.00 each. So no, I didn't sell :wink:


----------



## Rustjunkie

I just got this out of it's housing and have no idea of what the values might be. 
There are 4 pieces that stack to 26 inches by 13 inches in diameter weighing a total of just over 75 lbs.
The converter would have been installed on a very large track driven CAT powered tractor made in 2016/17.
Any ideas offhand what I can sell this by the lb for?


----------



## Rustjunkie

The buyers I know are saying $4.oo to $10.oo / lb but nothing for sure right now,so I thought I would ask here.


----------



## jimdoc

You should have left them in the case, so they could be identified.
As is now, you will get low balled because they can't be identified.
Or, since they are uncanned, they could have been leached, is what they will say.


----------



## Rustjunkie

It weighed about 300 lbs and and was nearly the size of a water heater even after having it here for a year and a half no one was able to get me a positive identification in order to price it for scrap. I have all the paperwork on why it was not installed at the assembly plant (quality control rejected it because of paint flaws) it was crated for return but never labeled for shipping, I have had buyers run every number and code on it inside and out , I didn't think it would be a big deal but the info is not readily available..........too new?


----------



## izac silva

Hi friends okay i'm new here and 2 years beginning to recycle gold got good results. But now I want to buy catalysts to be the PGM 'the Aqua regia is still a good choice for this process. I was watching videos of sreepts on the catalyst I wanted to know if he used air in the catalysts someone here could help me. I will be very grateful for an answer.


----------



## Lino1406

Air bubbling? always helps


----------



## Raza shahid

solar_plasma said:


> Thanks for quick reply. Btw the solution from the comb is yellow (much like iron) and turns colourless with my stannous.



Hi sola i am new in refining about 4 months. I used the same procedure sreetips hcl/clorax. And my solution color is yellow. and color less for stanneous test, u have faced this situation as you said what was conclusion about that is my converter is worthless or what. 
And an other thing is what is minimum quantity of raw material like crushed honey comb can be used i just used 50g for just testing. Or it is nessesary to use one whole honey comb. Plss help, will be thankfull.


----------



## Lino1406

The whole honeycomb contains (if not already exploited? White?) 2-3g pm's


----------



## hamed35

Hi All
I started an experiment with catalytic converters.
i put for 4 honeycomb in big bucket & add aqua regia.
but i do not put heat . it is on my back yard & the only heat source is sun.
i sook them for about 20 day & stir it some times.
honeycomb not sook compeletly in aqua regia so after 10-12 day i filiped back the honey comb.
i have some quastion.
is my work enough for dissolve all PGM metal? if no what can i do?
what is best way for extract pd & pt from aqua regia. (exept zinc cementation) 
when we have dissolved PGM metal in nitric acide how can adjust PH level without using heat & evaporation( because it's good for small batch). for example how can change nitric solution with ph1 to ph4.


----------



## Scrap123

Rustjunkie said:


> DSC03163.JPG The buyers I know are saying $4.oo to $10.oo / lb but nothing for sure right now,so I thought I would ask here.



The worth of platinum, palladium and rhodium on the market depend on their value on the metal exchange market, as their value fluctuate constantly depending on the global resources and demand at all times.


----------



## fishaholic5

Lino1406 said:


> 10, to Rhodium:1 will absorb rhodium


That's interesting.
If it can collect Gold and Rhodium, does it pick up Silver and the other PGM's too?


----------



## DNIndustry

Then why do they use Ni:S for fire assay? 
Is it the obvious answer..cost? 

Also the catalytic recovery sheet link isn't working for me. Can some one please. email it? [email protected]


----------



## Eg.refiner

lazersteve said:


> Here's an excellent study on the recovery of PGMs from cats. They quantitatively test various dissolutions and sodium peroxide fusion. Everything is summed up in nice tables listing the different types of cats and the associated yields for each type of process. Lots of data including yields.
> 
> Check it out.
> 
> Cat Contents
> 
> Take the time to study this one and you'll learn a lot.
> the link is not working can you send new link please
> Steve


----------



## Eg.refiner

The link is not working for the study , can you send it please


----------



## Germandude

Would love to see the link of the study too, sadly the link doesn't work no more  If anyone have it by any way, could you pls send me the file or a link via private message ? thank you so much


----------

