# Merged Topics on Ceramic CPU Recovery with Yields



## Gold-Digger

I see a couple different types of CPU's for sale from 486 to gold topped Pentium Pro's. I realize these all have different amounts of gold but does anyone have any rough numbers for amount of gold per processor.

As an example, does the average Pentium Pro Gold topped processor have $8 worth of gold. And does the average Pentium 60 to 200mhz (non-gold tops) have $2 worth of gold, etc.

Also, same for memory. If you get 10 lbs of older memory are there any general rules. Such as 10 lbs of gold tipped older 4mb/8mb/16mb/32mb types of memory would yield 1/2 ounce of gold.

The problem I believe a lot of newbies (including myself) have is you don't know how much gold content there really is.. So people guess and run up ebay auctions and related reclaims. And something that is really worth $50 gets ran up to $100 because no one has a clue on how what they are buying.


----------



## lazersteve

Gold Digger, 

Welcome to the forum and thank you for the post.

This is an excellent question, but not one that is easily answered. The best method is to purchase each type of scrap and accurately weigh the input scrap verses the output gold. I keep a spreadsheet of the various items I process to help me with my purchasing decisions. This questions answer is further complicated by several factors including who processed the scrap (how well they did at cleaning the scrap), what process you use to recover the gold, and how much of a scrap items weight can actually be processed.

As an example:

If I buy 160 slot 1 processors and trim the edges (fingers) myself, I know they are free of excess board material and surface mounted devcies (SMD's). They will consistantly yield 1 oz of fingers per 10 cpus or 1 pound of fingers. From this pound of fingers I can accurately say that if I process them with acid-peroxide I'll get 2.5 grams of gold. If someone else trims the fingers with excess board material or if you use a different method of recovery the yields may vary considerablly.

I hope this helps,

Steve


----------



## Gold-Digger

Regarding trimming those 132 pin computer memory sticks I use the following method which took me several hours to figure out. I was first trying to use clippers, then heavy duty pliers to bend and break off the gold tipped memory edges. This was slow and labor intensive.

Now I just use a big heavy vise that I got at harbor freight for $30. It's jaws are 6" across (match the length of these memory sticks). I place the gold tipped edges into the vise and tighten the vise. I then take a heavy rubber hammer and with 3 or 4 swings these sticks separately nicely right where the clamp is located. I found this method to be just as good as trimming (o.k. 95% as accurate) but it's much faster and easier..

I use a dust mask for this technique as I can see junk coming off these memory sticks when I hit them with a hammer.

A better technique would be to use a tabletop metal shear but these cost $400+. And it may not be that much faster or accurate than my technique using a $5 hammer and $30 vise.

Does anyone else have some good feedback on techniques they are using to quickly separate the gold parts from the boards?


----------



## lazersteve

The method I currently use, though time consuming, pays great dividends in clean product and accurate assesment of yields per pound. I use a scroll saw, also known as a band saw. It's takes some geting used to and your have to use the right blade for the job, but the fingers are of impeccable quality. These are the highest yield fingers you can find.

To cut to the chase I've done some experimenting on direct chemical removal of the gold fingers edges only from the memory stick and it's showing great promise. I'll get some photos posted of the items mention herein later tonight.

Steve


----------



## ThePierCer

does anyone know anything about the older non-gold memory? what is it plated with??? I have about 20 lbs of it that i'm sitting on. It's non-magnetic, but i have no idea it it's silver, stainless steel, or some other base metal...


----------



## Noxx

It may be silver or not... You sould test it.


----------



## catfish

Hi Gold digger:

I am kinda like you, some what confused. I am on ebay quite a bit and see folks bidding several dollars for pentium pro chips. I have done many pentium pro chips in the past and never took the time to really get serious about the exact gold content in a pentium pro cpu chip.

Well I just finished two unoffical tests on refining pentium pro cpu chips. I crushed two (2) pentium pro chips very fine and ran them through an Aqua Regia of Nitrate soda and hydrocloric. I then neutrilized the nitric acid to .60 PH and then precipitated with Sodium Met. Let one batch of two sit for eight hours and then decanted off liquid and washed the mud with distilled water and the aqua ammonia then rewashed again for three times with distilled water, dried mud on hot plate and then put it in my oven. Cooked for 40 minutes and then dumped in a sulphric acid to knock off the flux. I also used my special homemade flux to make sure I burn off most unwanted metals. Gold comes out pretty good. The nugget came out at .7 grams.

I then repeated the same test again, except I let this batch sit for 24 hours before decanting, I then poured off the settled gold and then I ran the entire spent aqua regia through my Buchner vacumm filter, using a fine filter. I dried the filter and burned it to ashes and then dried the gold using the above technique. I then melted the gold with the burned filter paper ashes and beleive it or not I got a nugget of .7 Grams.

My calculation is gold at $661.00 per oz. I get 98% spot price for all my gold. This represents about $14.58 per nugget. or $7.29 per chip. I dont understand why some of these folks are paying 5 to 8 dollars per chip. They must know something that I dont.

Catfish


----------



## tarvus

catfish said:


> I crushed two (2) pentium pro chips very fine and ran them through an Aqua Regia of Nitrate soda and hydrocloric. I then neutrilized the nitric acid to .60 PH and then precipitated with Sodium Met. Let one batch of two sit for eight hours and then decanted off liquid and washed the mud with distilled water and the aqua ammonia then rewashed again for three times with distilled water, dried mud on hot plate and then put it in my oven. Cooked for 40 minutes and then dumped in a sulphric acid to knock off the flux. I also used my special homemade flux to make sure I burn off most unwanted metals. Gold comes out pretty good. The nugget came out at .7 grams.



Wow! I need to adopt your technique! I've just been breaking up chips with a hammer and running them through aqua regia. I think I'm averaging about 10 grams recovered per 100 chips. Works out to a tad over $2.00 per chip. I get a bit more by reverse electro-plating the gold plated squares.

There must be a lot of gold concentrated in the silicon matrix that I'm not getting to with the old "smack with a hammer" trick!

How are you fine crushing your chips Catfish?


----------



## catfish

Hi Tarvis:

Plesae note these were Pentium Pro CPU chips. The 386 and 486 regular ceramic chips has much much less gold than these chips do. In fact you would be very lucky to get 1.0% gold per weight of 386 & 486 Caramic cpus. If you refined the crushed chips and then ran the gold tab through your cell and recovered the gold plate material. 386 & 486 Ceramics and Pentium Pros are like comparing apples and oranges.

Catfish

PS I built my crusher. A 6" long piece of 2" diameter galvanized pipe with a cap srewed on one end. then I took a 10" piece of 1.25 galvanized pipe and placed a cap on one end and filled it full of lead, then attached a cap on the other end. You may want to use electical tape on the large piece of pipe to keep the blisters down on your hands. This method works much better tha the hamer crushing and you dont loose any of the gold.


----------



## Anonymous

catfish said:


> Hi Gold digger:
> 
> Well I just finished two unoffical tests on refining pentium pro cpu chips. I crushed two (2) pentium pro chips very fine and ran them through
> 
> I then repeated the same test again, except I let this batch sit for 24 hours before decanting,
> 
> My calculation is gold at $661.00 per oz. I get 98% spot price for all my gold. This represents about $14.58 per nugget. or $7.29 per chip. I dont understand why some of these folks are paying 5 to 8 dollars per chip. They must know something that I dont. Catfish



Yes, it appears others do know something--it appears gold yield varies by manufacturer.

I just had my lab assistant repeat your first experiment. We do every quant testing 3 three times around here.

We used pentium pro chips...2 AMD, the 2 INTEL per test. Crushed all to minus 200 after removing metal. Then recombined metal with ground silica for the final digestions.

The AMD ones yielded 1.1479 grams +/- .001% in the 3 tests.

The Intel's yielded slightly more at 1.2873 grams +/- .001% in the 3 tests.

Then they ran ICP on the remaining filtrate and noted the recovery rates of 98.8% on each type.

Interesting experiment. Thanks for the "intell" 
It would appear your processing is leaving a statistically significant amount, especially if calculated in dollars and cents per at your $661 price of gold.

a man named Sue


----------



## lazersteve

Sue said:


> We used pentium pro chips...2 AMD, the 2 INTEL per test





> The AMD ones yielded 1.1479 grams +/- .001% in the 3 tests.



Where did you find *6* 'AMD Pentium Pros'? A pentium pro cpu is a socket 8 device and to the best of my knowledge AMD never produced any socket 8 devices.

You have a very talented staff indeed to recover so much gold from six cpus that don't even exist.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous

> Chipset Models - Today there are many chipset models in the marketplace. The most popular for mainstream desktop computers are Intel's 810, BX, LX, and ZX. There are also "third party" chipsets available from Acer Labs (ALi), Silicon Integrated Systems (SiS), and VIA Technologies (VIA). The latter are quite similar to their Intel counterparts but may add features not available in the Intel chipsets. The third party chipsets may also support non-Intel processors *(like those from AMD and others that have a 100MHz data bus and use the "Socket 7" processor-to-motherboard socket). *Intel also produces chipsets that support dual processors. [At the time this FAQ was prepared, only Intel was producing chipsets which support multiple processors.] The following are brief descriptions of the key features of the most popular primary Intel and third party chipsets as of the date this FAQ was prepared (mid-June '99).



Socket 7 instead of 8. Big deal. Basically, Intel hasn't done anything that AMD hasn't come along and ripped off or tweaked and issued their own "version." It's called capitalism.

I'll check later for more accolades for my fine staff. :lol: 

a man named Sue


----------



## lazersteve

The biggest difference is the dual core nature of the socket 8 processor, meaning a greater number of hair fine gold wires connecting the cores to the legs. Not to mention that a socket 7 only has 321 gold plated pins versus the 387 gold plated pins in the socket 8. I think that when you are quoting accuracy to the nearest ten thousandths or better of a gram in the yields that these values are a significant scientific differences. 

One other important figure you and the original poster left out of the yield data was the purity of the gold produced. We all know that 1 gram of 100% gold is a more valuable yield than 1.5 grams of 50% gold.

These omissions make it impossible to scientifically confirm the yield of a pentium pro cpu by either method.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous

Well, geez whiz, you now admit AMD made pentium pro type chips, so I guess that means we're making progress.

As far as incomplete according to you, Yes, I did forget to type in the gold results purity was X-Ray 9995 on our tests, for both types. Did you really expect my guys to come up with less purity than that. Afterall, it is our livelihood. I'll stick with my lab guys. They're some of the best in the business.

You have a 3rd set of results to contribute or are you going to continue to dispute my results.

I look forward to your test results on a similar pentium pro challenge or anyone elses for that matter.

The original question was why some ebay bidders are paying more than $5-$8 per chip. I tried to answer that question by duplicating the test performed by the newbie with the data they provided.

a man named Sue


----------



## lazersteve

There is no such thing as an AMD Pentium Pro, only Intel Pentium Pro.

It's pretty obvious you don't know the difference between a Pentium Pro and a Pentium I or II so we will leave it at that. Truthfully, I'm more impressed with the yields you quoted if they came from pentium one (socket 7) class cpus.

As for my results I don't have a team of scientist to process my gold for me, but I know your results are NOT from Intel Pentium Pros (at least the AMD figures you quoted) which was the question asked. 



catfish said:


> I crushed two (2) pentium pro chips very fine and ran them through an Aqua Regia of Nitrate soda and hydrocloric.



You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare socket 7 cpus to socket 8 cpus with respect to the gold yields of each. 

Regardless of the type of cpu processed or the yields you can attain from them in the lab, it doesn't increase the value of the cpus for a home experimenter. As hobbyist we must go on the yields we can obtain, not what can be attained in a lab somewhere. 

As you stated 



Sue said:


> --it appears gold yield varies by manufacturer.



The value is derived from this yield, which is different for each of us.


Steve


----------



## Anonymous

The relationship between the 7 socket and the 8 socket number of legs and wires is a qualitative one, or to put it another way, is a mathematical difference.

The difference between the results of my lab guys and the two types of chips tested is also a mathematical one.

There ARE AMD pentium pro "class" chips 100MHZ, which I've already proven, and which my guys say they tested. They lie to me, they get fired. It's real simple. We have millions riding on correct answers around here. This was a simple experiment to offer an answer an earlier question. 

I've looked in the ebay ads this morning. The chip sellers offer no details. Are you trying to convince this forum you only process Intel Stamped socket 8 Pentium Pro class chips for gold yield? 

The major difference besides math and how many pins in a 7 socket vs an 8 socket is dollars of pure gold for sale per chip processed. 

My guys got more dollars per chip than the original questioner. That is the significant part. i would have thought this forum would be happy to learn there is more gold available than they are apparently harvesting. I only offered it so that it might set the guys here to looking for how to get at that unharvested gold more effeciently.

You are correct about one thing, however. I don't care about clock speed, cpu manufacturer, etc. I do care about monetary results from test showing interesting differences and theorizing about why.

One reason for the difference I suspect is my guys took their ground up chips to minus 200 before adding back in the metal pins, and the original questioner took his to "fine" whatever that definition is to him.

Isn't it all about money in the wallet after the acid is disposed of?

a man named Sue


----------



## catfish

First of all I am very impressed with the results that "Man named Sue" came up with in a lab. enviorment as to the "exact" amount of gold is in a pentium pro chip.. I have gained quite an insight about the depth and vast knowledge of the contributing members of this forum. 

I envy you on having a first class laboratory at your disposal to make these kinds of tests. Unfortunately I work out of my small electronics repair shop and only work with gold and silver as hobby. 

I want to quote Lazersteve if I may.''This forum is all about learning for all of us and having a good time while doing so. There are no stupid questions and each have a unique perspective on the subject. That is what the driving force of this forum is.

I am still in mild shock after learning just how much knowledge and experience you folks bring to this forum. Keep up the good work and continue to create good healthy dialog.

My hats off to both Steve and Man named sue.

Catfish


----------



## lazersteve

catfish,

I work in a garage also. Where Sue has an formal education in Metallurgy, mine is in Electronics Technology. I'm a humble hobbyist as you are when it comes to my gold 'refinery'. 

Sue's results are astounding to say the least. By his descriptions of the bus speed and chip types, he is referring to newer (relative to Pentium Pros) generation (100 Mhz FSB) ceramic pentium cpus that produce with two chips what I had believed was only possible with a pound of these cpus! More over, as he stated, mathematically speaking the older Pentium Pro (larger, dual core, 60-66 MHz FSB with external gold plate) chips must produce way more than what you or he has suggested. I will indeed have to do some test of my own.

I have a stockpile of cpus and don't really mess with them except for experiments in reverse assembling them. I like to carefully remove the cores with the gold wires still intact, sort of like artwork. Now that I know this information about the increased yields of gold, I may process the stock I have on hand. I will need a good ball mill first.

Ultimately, the value any one experimenter can derive from a cpu varies greatly with technique and equipment. The only advantage I see to home refiners is that we don't have to pay assisants, buy expensive test equipment , and pay the bills to keep a full refinery up and running. In the long run our lower yields of gold may cost us less to process than the big guys higher yield when looked at on a overall cost per gram to produce.

This has been one superb post topic. I have had a great time discussing this interesting and enlightening topic with all of you.

Steve


----------



## sandhog

Pretty rowdy in here. :lol: 

Do we all agree that it is not worth buying any cpu for scrap unless it's cost is under 1.50 U.S. Don't forget about the cost of chemicals and labor, even if we are doing this as a hobby it seems to me that we still want to come out doing better than just breaking even.




-Bill


----------



## Fever

I am thinking about investing in a decent ball mill for exactly this reason- mashing cpu's into a very fine dust and then processing in AR for the gold values. Is this the very best method? I've gleaned that it is from the debate above.

Well done gents. Great exchange of incredibly detailed info!

Fever


----------



## spoke27

Material..
1 pound sodium nitrate 
1 lb Hcl 
water.

first I dissolve sodium nitrate in enough hot water..
add 4 lb mix cpu 
and 1 lb Hcl.. 

it is not work what is my wrong Ty


----------



## spoke27

it is solve little but not clear all cpu pin. what can I make clear all pins? more sodium nitrate ? or HCL? TY


----------



## Harold_V

One of you guys that use this process offer him some guidance. I would, but I am not familiar with the process.

Harold


----------



## spoke27

really this very hard. 




I add urea some but have bubble in bottle.. I think I don't clear nitric.    :?:


----------



## OMG

I have seen other posts where they say to add HCl to nitrates to make some kind of poor mans AR. I thought people were just confused, but I saw it a few times so I wasn't sure myself if HCl + nitrates actually makes AR.
I always thought sulfuric acid was the only thing that displaced the nitrate ions in order to make nitric and thus make AR.

So, if I were you, I'd add a bit of sulfuric acid to release some free nitrates.
(or wait until someone else says something)


----------



## OMG

What is your goal? to dissolve base metals, or to dissolve base metals and the gold?


----------



## spoke27

only gold not others 
Ty


----------



## OMG

Well. I can't help. I don't know of any way to dissolve just gold and no base metals. (Other than direct chlorination -which I've only read about and never tried)


----------



## spoke27

what is your method for process Cpu


----------



## Anonymous

I am confused by the 1lb HCL, it is usually in liquid measure ie, liter, and it already contains the water you need.

jim


----------



## spoke27

look it's not work and I add some nitrate and hcl But not measure.. now I have very dark AR and

*Admin: Attachement removed, Copyright Violation.*


----------



## lazersteve

Spoke,

You are using the poor mans AR recipe.

The document you posted is a variation of Steve Spevaks, using his photos and most of his verbiage. It's not the original and is missing some information.

Here's how I proceed with Poor man's AR:


Remove lids (top and bottom) from ceramic cpus using MAPP gas or a hammer and center punch applied from the top.
Add broken cpu's into large beaker or coffee pot.
Fill with tap water. Add just enough to cover the cpus.
Add and equal volume of HCl (31.45% approx 10 M) to the amount of water used above. 
Place small ceramic saucer on top of pot to prevent vapor from escaping.
Heat to just below boiling.
Add in 1-2 teaspoons of sodium nitrate, use one if processing less than one pound.
Heat on low-medium for 30-45 minutes or until brown fumes and fizzing/tiny bubbles are no longer visible.
If salts form allow to cool completely and pour off dark acid through tight filter and start at step 3 above. Filter may contain gold foils or powder. Rinse any solids back into the reaction vessel. Test saturated acid for dissolved gold with stannous chloride.
Repeat steps 7 and 8 until all metals are dissolved.
Remove ceramic saucer and let the solution evaporate down to 25% of it's original volume, or until salts form. With very carefully controlled nitrate/nitric additions, steps 11-13 can be skipped.
Add fresh HCl to expel nitric as brown vapors. 
Repeat steps 11 and 12 two more times.
Dilute with equal volume of tap water or add a 1/4 of the solution volume of ice cubes.
Filter cold through packed funnel under vacuum until 100% free of sediment and suspended particles.
Add Sodium Meta Bisulfite to precipitate gold as brown powder.
Let settle and siphon liquid off brown powder.
Add enough water to cover brown powder and stir throughly.
Repeat steps 17 and 18 two more times.
Add enough HCl (32% 10M muriatic acid) to cover brown powder.
Boil HCl with brown powder until color of HCl no longer darkens.
Pour off the dirty HCl and repeat steps 20 and 21 until HCl no longer discolors. Test HCl washes for dissolved gold with stannous chloride.
Slowly dry gold in beaker by shaking beaker over medium heat until the gold powder moves freely about the beaker it's was precipitated in.
Transfer brown powder melting dish and heat to red heat (incinerate) DO NOT MELT!!!
Transfer incinerated powder to beaker and repeat process steps 3 to 23 on the brown powder.
Prepare melting dish as shown on my website melting videos.
Melt dry gold powder in properly prepared melting dish.

The lids and ceramic housings will need to be processed to get the remaining gold from the cpus.

The lids strip very well using the sulfuric cell shown on my website.

The cores will need to be crushed to 1/8 mesh pieces and leached with hot AR or HCl-Cl to get to the final trace of gold trapped inside the ceramic.

I don't know of a way to get the gold without touching the base metals, perhaps a 1% sodium cyanide leech.

Steve


----------



## spoke27

Ty steve 
But realyy I confused.. Now 

I have very dark AR.. 
I am adding sodium meta bisulfate in it is not go down .. if that is have missing then I dont understand good. 
And I was get this documnet on this site..


----------



## spoke27

my problems bottle top and bottle bottom same dark green.. 
I think Problem SMB it is not drop powder


----------



## lazersteve

Spoke,

Read item 14 carefully on my list above.

Check the spelling of your 'SMB' verses mine.

You are using 'bisulfate', I'm referring to 'bisulf*ite*'

Steve


----------



## spoke27

I think it is bisulfite shop assistannt say me bisulfite maybe 
but I am not sure... maybe I use samll? I use 30 gr for 4 lt AR


----------



## spoke27

steve 

I watch http://www.goldrecovery.us/goldrecovery/videos/smb.asp
Your video I waiting same reaction ?


----------



## lazersteve

The reaction is shown on the video.

If you are using sodium metabisulfate, you will not see a reaction. must be sodium metabisulfite.

Steve


----------



## spoke27

I look my chemical fee invoice. have Smb after I think seller mix pack.. and after: I try other pack..
Pls look pic and say me what is that ?



[IMG:1]http://img444.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif[/img]



[IMG:1]http://img262.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif[/img]


----------



## lazersteve

Spoke,

From the photos it appears as though you have lots of iron in the solution. The yellow green tint of the liquid along with the brown material looks a lot like iron to me.

What exactly did you dissolve?

Did you filter the solution 100% clear before adding any metabisulfite?

Steve


----------



## spoke27

I buy five pack.. 
One sodium nitrate 
urea 
ammonium clorur
borax
sodium metabisulfite
dissolve cpu 
and filter with cloth 

and add urea when .. for down fizzy

after add smb (but dont clear AR ) then I think pack mix maybe 
because My SMb pack litle others.. 
1 cm3 Smb 1,45 gr 
1 cm3 ammonium clorur 1,52 gr 
1 cm3 borax 1,72 gr 

then I think My litle pack borax 

and after I try others.. 
All story.. I think chemical store make wrong..


----------



## Anonymous

I did not see HCL in your list, that is why I asked when you said 1lb of HCL
What you have is NH3CL ammonium choride.


----------



## spoke27

ı have also Hcl .. pls read all


----------



## LeftyTheBandit

Sue said:


> We used Pentium pro chips...2 AMD, the 2 INTEL per test. Crushed all to minus 200 after removing metal. Then recombined metal with ground silica for the final digestions.



What process did your lab use to digest? (microwave digestion?)Is adding silica part of your digestion process?

When you crushed everything after removing metal, how did you remove the metal?


----------



## Harold_V

Sue is no longer a member of this board. He was banned for many reasons. 

Harold


----------



## Anonymous

hi why i ahave come across any one usine hydrazine for percipitation directly from disolved cpu solution acidic


----------



## spoke27

pramodkumar said:


> hi why i ahave come across any one usine hydrazine for percipitation directly from disolved cpu solution acidic



are you know how is use ?


----------



## Anonymous

hi ,thanks for asking ,but u have to be carefull with this process
u habe to have hot AR and distill water hot as well and then to AR add 2ml or hydrazine and add water slowly u will see gold raining down.as reaction slow down repeat until u see white fizz on top, hope it work s for u too
:idea:


----------



## spoke27

pramodkumar said:


> hi ,thanks for asking ,but u have to be carefull with this process
> u habe to have hot AR and distill water hot as well and then to AR add 2ml or hydrazine and add water slowly u will see gold raining down.as reaction slow down repeat until u see white fizz on top, hope it work s for u too
> :idea:



Ar is hot then we are evaporate nitric ? 
can you teach step by step.. And picture


----------



## 61 silverman

Hi ALL, Just one question about this POOR MAN'S AR recipe the first time that I took notes on this process it was stated for 2 two pounds of CPU's 2 cups HCL- 8oz. sodium Nitrate dissolved in 8oz. H2o,,
Now I see that through trial and ""learning"" I now see that the addition of the sodium nitrate is being done in small ammounts too minimize the amount of NITRIC ACID formed minimizing any excess,,, Now my question is Is the sodium Nitrate now being added " UN-DISSOLVED " at 2 two tablespoons at a time letting the reaction calm befors adding more.. when completely all disolved that will.. Adjust PH to 1.25 using dissolved - FILTERED - UREA.. Then continue with process as explained.
MARK


----------



## Oz

I would stay away from the use of urea and use the boil down method of removing nitric once you are satisfied all values are in solution. Although this can take a bit more work it avoids many complications.


----------



## lazersteve

Mark,

The modified poor man's AR works very much like GSPs controlled use of nitric acid with true AR. The small additions of Nitrate are stopped once the metallic solids are all dissolved with CPUs. 

This in essence virtually eliminates the need to denox the solution.

Boiling down a poor mans AR solution will result in lots of troublesome salts. The key is to exactly control the nitrate additions so denoxxing is not required. Harold has suggested (and it works quite well) adding a known weight gold button into the reaction to quench the last of the nitric. By reweighing the remaining button you can calculate the amount of gold you added to the reaction so you don't upset your yield figures when refining for customers.

Steve


----------



## Oz

You are right Steve about the salts, I had a slip in forgetting the source of the nitrates. My bad.


----------



## 61 silverman

would having the fumes condensce back into the reaction vessel be good ?? refering too the frozen marbles sealed above the vessel in a bottle dripping back in.. and I noticed it is 2 teaspoons NOT Tablesp--- As i had said ...


----------



## 61 silverman

The picture is of a small batch of de-plating I recently did,, dissolved in HCL/CL have not diluted or filtered at that time..!!


----------



## Chumbawamba

Again, sorry to revive a very old thread, but JUST HOW MUCH GOLD IS IN EACH PENTIUM PRO CPU?

I read and re-read and re-re-read Man Named Sue's description and still could not figure out if there is .35g or .7g per CPU.



> I just had my lab assistant repeat your first experiment. We do every quant testing 3 three times around here.
> 
> We used pentium pro chips...2 AMD, the 2 INTEL per test. Crushed all to minus 200 after removing metal. Then recombined metal with ground silica for the final digestions.



Ok, so 3 tests for each CPU type, with 2 CPUs per test, so that would be a total of 12 CPUs (6 Intel, 6 AMD)?



> The AMD ones yielded 1.1479 grams +/- .001% in the 3 tests.
> 
> The Intel's yielded slightly more at 1.2873 grams +/- .001% in the 3 tests.



So is that 1.1479g per 6 CPUs, or 1.1479g per test batch of 2 CPUs, or 1.1479g per CPU?

There is WAY too much ambiguity in that description. Very unsatisfying, and thus I consider the actual amount still unknown, despite this tantalizingly accurate data.

And by the way, although I'm sure the point is moot by now, Steve is right: there is no such thing as an AMD "Pentium Pro", not the least of which is because the primary reason why Intel started calling their processors "Pentium" was to thwart AMD ("Pentium" is copyrighted by Intel). I don't know what AMD's equivalent of the Pentium Pro was (K5 PR200?) but AMD never made such a beefy chip with as much obvious gold. Physically they are different chips, and I would never expect anyone to be offering to sell "AMD Pentium Pro" chips.

I'm a fan of precision. I try to devote my life to being as precise as possible (for better or worse). I want some answers, damn it, and I want them now!!!


----------



## lazersteve

As a side note, 

I posted this follow up in another thread...

Mysterious Socket 8

Sue's AMD 'data' was obviously skewed.

For the record Pentium pro cpus are reported to yield between 0.5 grams to 0.75 grams for each cpu. I have not confirmed this and it is very important to process the gold plated lids and braze to get this yield.

I have nearly a hundred PP's on hand, so I'll try to follow up with actual numbers when I can.

GSP has recently suggested that the ceramic substrate does not contain any fine gold wires, merely molybdenum traces. The hair fine wires are in the die cavity under the bottom lid only. Arthur has reported yields of Palladium and possible Gold from crushing left over ceramics from cpus and then processing. It likely depends on the cpu and the manufacturer.

I have lots of intact cpu ceramics that are free of pins and surface gold. I'm saving them until I get a good crusher just in case.


Steve :wink:


----------



## Chumbawamba

One note that I haven't seen yet (though I'm sure it's been mentioned):

Many CPUs have more collectable value than their gold value. MUCH more. Early Intel CPUs (specifically, their first ones such as the 4004, 8008, and early 8080s) are worth hundreds, sometimes over a thousand dollars. Well, at least they did before Wall Street bankers put us on a path towards a Road Warrior existence.

Since so many of these babies are being melted down by guys like us for the gold, and being that our global financial system may well be re-capitalized with gold in a couple years to fix the mess we've been plunged into, I predict relatively very few CPUs will survive the current era and anyone holding on to large stores of CPUs 20 years from now will be sitting on a (literal and figurative) gold mine.

To that end, see the photo for my future savings (dang, I guess that was a smudge on the lens after all). I figure in a worst case scenario, where it comes down to enjoying the beauty and nuance of these vs. having food and shelter for my family, I'll just start processing them. For now, they are my cpusmatics collection. I actually have half that again stacked away in boxes, and half of that again laying about here and there. Not to mention the ones inside the computers of my collection, which would be twice or probably even thrice that. But those are never going to be considered gold ore...they are priceless.

I figure in time people might use them as money, or perhaps sooner as poker chips for gambling. At some point you might be able to trade one for a Happy Meal, considering the gold they contain will be worth serious money.

Speaking of which, I also include two photos of the inside of a Pentium and 486 CPU. These were ones that would not separate easily from their aluminum heatsinks, so I ended their puny little existence. Actually, it was an accident, but now it presents itself as an opportunity to post more photos of CPU innards for those who are curious.


----------



## Chumbawamba

> I have nearly a hundred PP's on hand



Good god, man! That's two ounces of trapped Au!

Nice.

I know I have more in a box somewhere but that box is currently misplaced. I have about 40-45 that I know of for sure. I love finding P-Pros. It makes me horny.

P.S. Please do report what you yield when you do the P-Pros. It would be great to have a more definitive answer. I'd like to be able to take a stack of 41 out with me and impress the ladies with my wealth.


----------



## JustinNH

The gold mine: its gold and its mine description cracked me up. Nice way of putting it :wink:


----------



## Chumbawamba




----------



## rainmaker

As to removing fingers, I use a pair of heavy poultry scissors. Good control and nice clean job. 

The drawback is your hand may get tired or sore from repeated use until you get use to it and your hand mussels get strengthened.

I'm able to sit on the sofa in my living room, while watching the "boob tube" and trim fingers most of the eavening without getting cold or wet.

Rainmaker


----------



## ilanpro

How do you do this?? 

[*]Filter through packed funnel under vacuum until 100% free of sediment and suspended particles.


----------



## lazersteve

A packed funnel is just a glass or plastic funnel, I prefer glass as some plastics dissolve with acids, with folded toilet paper plug or glass wool in the neck. Fold the paper and roll it up so no rough edges are exposed and finish up the roll with a fold lengthwise 1/3 of the way down the roll.

The drip rate need to be about 2-3 drops per 5 seconds to keep the flow going. Test the packing with plain water before using on precious metals containing solutions. If the drip rate is too fast particles with get through, too slow and you'll be waiting days for the filtering to finish.

Vacuum filtration uses standard chemistry glass ware and flasks to filter with a vacuum assist.

I demonstrate all these and more filtering techniques on my Platinum DVD.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous

Hi..am new here and am trying to determine the refined gold yield in grams per ceramic Pentium Pro chip. I am talking about the large classic ceramic gold topped variety which have two procesors inside them and not the earlier AMD versions which seem to have been the topic or dispute of earlier debates on this forum. I have read everything evryone has posted about this subjet but note a lot of parsing of words and splitting of hairs going on here and no one really giving a reliable answer to the question of yield for these kinds of chips and so am still not certain what the answer is since I read a lot of hear say, rough estimates or references to precise tests on earlier parts made by AMD that used the same part name during a trade name dispute with Intel, etc.... Does anyone have any precise up to date data on test yields on the kind of Pentium chips I am referring to? I know what i am getting out of them but want to make sure that I am not leaving anything behind and if there is any further way to maximize refined yield.? All info is appreciated. Also curious to know if there is any silver content in these chips that could affect or inhibit gold precipitation during the Sodium Metabisulfite phase. Thanks JR


----------



## glorycloud

Here's a thought, why not post what you are getting out of them and let the experts
let you know how you are doing so far. In doing so, you will also pass along to others
what could possibly be the accurate data you are wanting. 8)


----------



## Anonymous

Thank you for your response but that does not really answer the question. However If you have this information or know someone who might and if indeed this forum is dedicated to sharing info and helping others make good decisions please let me know who one might contact directly to obtain the answer: The question being has anyone performed controlled accurate empirical refines to determine how much refined gold under optimal conditions may be recovered from an Intel Pentium Pro chip? Thanks for your assistence.


----------



## glorycloud

Somehow, I knew you would choose to not divulge any information. 8) 

If I had any info on these chips I would through it out for all to see.
This is a forum - a "for us" environment. For whatever reasons it can and does devolve
into a "for me" place as well.

Oh well, sail on amigo - sail on!


----------



## patnor1011

JRuth said:


> Thank you for your response but that does not really answer the question. However If you have this information or know someone who might and if indeed this forum is dedicated to sharing info and helping others make good decisions please let me know who one might contact directly to obtain the answer: The question being has anyone performed controlled accurate empirical refines to determine how much refined gold under optimal conditions may be recovered from an Intel Pentium Pro chip? Thanks for your assistence.



there are about 50 people here who can give you their numbers. they will be different as they pursue different routes for refining with various results. unfortunately there is probably nobody here performing "controlled accurate empirical refines to determine how much refined gold under optimal conditions may be recovered from whatever you choose to refine". even if you will find somebody doing this there will be problem to obtain the same numbers as we work in different locations, set-ups, chemicals, chips............... 
I noticed range from 0.5 to 0.75 on some of steves posts and it is enough for me. When I will be on 0.5 it means that I might be loosing some values somewhere and on the other hand when close to 0.75 I will be happy with how good I am.
btw your question raising another questions. please define "controlled accurate empirical refines " and "under optimal conditions "


----------



## Harold_V

JRuth said:


> Thank you for your response but that does not really answer the question. However If you have this information or know someone who might and if indeed this forum is dedicated to sharing info and helping others make good decisions please let me know who one might contact directly to obtain the answer: The question being has anyone performed controlled accurate empirical refines to determine how much refined gold under optimal conditions may be recovered from an Intel Pentium Pro chip? Thanks for your assistence.


Funny----the response by glorycloud seems to have pegged you dead on. You appear reluctant to tip your hand, for reasons best known by you. I don't see that as a good way to introduce yourself to the board. It certainly isn't endearing you to me, making it quite obvious you intend to use and abuse the board, offering nothing in return. _I hope I'm wrong with my assessment. _Understand that we are a free giving bunch here, but if you come to pick brains and contribute nothing, it won't be long until no one will be willing to talk to you. 

Now then, perhaps you'd like to rephrase your inquiry and talk to the readers in such a way that you will gain their respect. 

If that is not in your plans, perhaps you can take your dog and pony show elsewhere. 

Harold


----------



## Anonymous

An ideal test situation: As would be carried out in a fully equiped, experienced and professional laboratory setting where one could assure that that the results would be consistant within +- 1% and that at least 99% of the existing gold could be recaptured and also after tallying the mean results of a half a dozen refines on the same type of product and with no spills, wastage, consistant measurements of processing chemicals used and post tests to assure that nothing is left in solution, etc... In other words a lab setting where the operators could state after the fact and within a 99% percent certainty that 99% of the existing gold had been recovered from the chip. Only then, could one be comfortable to state with high probability that a certain chip type or product contains on average x ammount and no more and no less...etc.

In another life many years ago I ran a chip mounting and gold wire bonding and ceramic package sealing and environmental test lab operation at Harris Semiconductor back in the early 80 s where I worked as shift supervisor over 60 proles and we inspected in clean room and then mounted the chips with gold solder into the ceramic cases, wire bound them with gold wire as fine as spider webbing thenand oven sealed the gold plated lids on and I can tell you that the tolerances, especially for Mil-spec parts, were very tight and variations of .25 grams of gold between parts of the same type did not exist nor would have even been tolerated since everything was computer controlled and the military was extemely tight on watching us and maintaining strict applications and audits at every level. I doubt if .0005 variances of the metal applied even existed given the digital levels of computer accuracy and daily calibrations of all processes. With commercial parts it was a little more loose but even then not to within the range of the refined gold(.50-.75) reported recovered by various contributors on this forum. 

In my own three home lab tests of 6 pros each time, simply simply shattered with two or three hammer blows and then submerged in a nylon mesh bag in a quart of aqua regia overnight, I am barely recovering 3 grms pure gold post crucible. 

Granted, my acetelyne cutting torch might be the wrong thing to use for melting and I suspect I might be blowing dust and even melted globules away since I weigh 8 or 10 dried grams of brown powder and end up with 3 grams of gold, so I have ordered a rose bud torch to see if that makes a difference. I have not been pulverizing the chips to powder either before placing them in the AR...although I am not sure if changing torches and pulverzing everything pre bath will raise my yield significantly either? A fellow in China wrote me he is getting 1 gram per pro chip but he is also using zinc dust to precipitate with instead of Sodium meta-bisulfite which is what I am using. After neutralizing one quart of AR with urea and adding 50 % volume in distilled water before shotting about 3 or 4 tea spoons of hot dissolved SMB into it, within 10 minutes I am getting a nice brown sprinkle of fall out and after about an hour that seems to be about it. No matter what I do after that I can not seem to squeeze anymore brown precipitant out of the clean pale green solution I have generated and so I do not know if I have gotten it all or if more is just locked inside and will not come out???. I then decant my solution to another big beaker and wash the brown residue remaining in the bottom of the first beaker about six times in distilled water then filter it off and dry it atop the filter paper and weigh it and make a note in my book. I then roll it in two sheets of toilet paper, dip the squib in alcohol and place it atop a bed of boric acid crystal flux in my crucible and heat it up until I see the glowing little bead rolling around in the flux. I then pour if off quickly into a container of cold water and take out my little gold marbles. Sometimes a silver colored marble comes out also which is composed of a very dense, heavy and white silver metal which will not mix with the gold and I have recovered about 1/3 as many of those nuggets alongside the gold ones. (not sure what they are though...paladium?)

Before placing my 6 hammer broken pro chips in the AR I weigh them and have 1 lb 2.5 oz of material. Post AR I rinse/ soak in bicarbonate solution for an hour and sun dry before physically touching them again and then weigh what is left of the chips. After AR I find that I have only 1 lb .40 oz of materal left...all ceramic except for the shattered glass processors inside which are still golden and which I have no idea how to extract the gold from.

This means that 65.31 grams of metal, or just over 2 oz of metal that was inside those chips has dissolved in the AR. Granted, a lot of that is probably the copper pins, etc....but to only get about 3 grams of gold out of all that which has dissolved is disturbing and I believe that the rest of it, or another 3-4 grams of gold is still trapped in solution along with the other 60 remaining grams of missing dissolved metal. Any thoughts on where I am loosing gold? Still in solution, not pulverizing the chips first or the wrong blow torch or something else I am missing altogether? Thanks JR

I would also like to believe like the China man says that there is 1 gram refinable in each of these pentium pro chips but right now I would also be happy just to increase my yield to .75. Thanks JR


----------



## qst42know

> Granted, my acetelyne cutting torch might be the wrong thing to use for melting and I suspect I might be blowing dust and even melted globules away since I weigh 8 or 10 dried grams of brown powder and end up with 3 grams of gold,



:shock: 

If you need someone to clean your shop give me a call. I'll bring my own vacuum. :mrgreen:



> Any thoughts on where I am loosing gold?



Base metals out first.

Nylon should be kept out of acid.

All crushed material gets included.

Evaporate to eliminate nitric acid.

Precipitation from dirty solutions can take much longer than an hour.

Don't rush the melt process.

Stannous chloride test the solution.

Slow down, I suspect you are loosing gold at each step of your processing.


----------



## g_axelsson

If you want to test your process start with a known amount of gold and copper. Then dissolve it, drop it from the solution, wash, dry, weigh the powder, melt and finally weigh the final button. If you lose gold in your process (or rather misplace it) then you will know.

My guess is that you are losing your gold when melting.

/Göran


----------



## mike.fortin

jruth. let soultion sit 30 days then chek to see if more brown falls down. if it dose youll know gold is lockup in soultion. good luck.mike.


----------



## teabone

Pentium pros usually average out to around .525 gram of gold each , from my own recovery endeavors. I don't have a fancy set up and I am really just a backyard chemist , but I have processed hundreds of pounds of these types.


----------



## Anonymous

Thank you all for your responses. Like the pieces of a big puzzles the parts are beginning to take shape into a coherent image.

While I think I know what most of you are saying and appreciate that you are being generous with your wisdom, remember I am but a novice so do not assume that I necessarily understand specifically what you are referring to all the time. Thus, I also appreciate your patience if it may seem to anyone that I ask questions with seemingly obvious answers. Also, reticence to reveal oneself at first was more of a factor of not wanting to appear to strangers like a total clod than anything else and, apart from providing an entertainment value to the seasoned veterans, I probably do not have a great deal of knowledge specific to this matter to contribute back to this forum at this stage of my career in this form of business. At least not much that anyone reading this does not already know. 30 years ago I was also a high school teacher and so I also understand and appreciate the nuturing and imparting of knowledge that goes along with learning.

Meanwhile I am still looking to structure and abide by the most efficient, productive and economically rewarding process for doing this and appreciate further counseling. Specifically there are a few terms and references that were passed to me for which I need more practical understanding for application and I thank anyone who could further elaborate.

1)) It was mentioned that one "must first remove the base metals"---nothing else elaborated. Ok..if this is going to be like a seminar of discovery...then correct me if I am wrong as I explore, read more on my own and fish around for the right answers. Anyway, what I think that the person is telling me is that before putting any of the hammer smashed pro material directly into the AR solution as I have been doing, that instead I must first place finely crushed pentium pro chip material into a nitric acid bath to dissolve all non auric and non platinum group metals? Then, I assume but correct me if I am wrong, after the nitric acid is drawn off that the gold flotsam and bottom sludge and what is left of the crushed chips--and after being rinsed a few times in distilled water--- is what only should be dropped into the AR rather than the entire chip with all its copper plated pins and what ever else kinds of base metals that are in it? Otherwise just been striking my pros with a few hammer blows, placing them in a string nylon mesh bag with string left hanging outside of bucket and tossing them in the AR. The bag, by the way...has kept all of the big pieces together while allowing the acid to disolve everything inside it while the bag itself has not suffered any decay or damage. It just seemed a safer way to keep the stuff contained and then remove it from the AR when done.

2. Is what I was producing by putting the smashed pro chip directly into the AR also what was referred to by someone as a "dirty solution.?" My question regarding that reference: Is the word "dirty" referring to the presence of dissolved base metals in the soup or a reference to a solution that has visible muck and trash floating around in it? My AR solution was by all accounts, at least to the naked eye, visually and pleasingly clean looking---a nice clear green hue like lime Gatorade with nothing else visibly floating around in it. I also decanted and filtered it into another white bucket prior to neutralizing it with urea and using SMBS to precipite the gold brown stuff. To filter I poured the solution through a .75 micron, 5 gallon bucket filter to catch any ceramic splinters and other chip stuff that had dropped out of the chips while they were cooking overnight in the AR. However, I also realize that we are dealing with molecular chemistry and so one technician's definition of "dirt" and "dirty" might not be immediately understandable to the uninitiated idiot like me since dirt can also be microscopic or more like contamination wih other dissolved materials and thus not visible to the eye. Anyway, please elaborate on a definition of "dirty solution" and how best to remedy or have I already figured it out? . Thanks .


----------



## Oz

JRuth,

Reading your latest post it seems that you are starting “to get it”. There is no point in posing on this forum or to use your words “not wanting to appear to strangers like a total clod”. 

There are those on this forum that have fancy degrees that are not the best at applying their education to some of the questions asked. Then there are some that have a high school degree or less, that know more about refining because they have done it for 20 years or more for a living, not just having read a procedure. 

Spend a little time investing in some of the links like on Lazersteve’s name or general reading of the forum. Once you think you understand something that you wish to try, ask about that line item. Even if someone wished to give you the Holy Grail it is not that simple. It does take some effort.

It is understandable that you wished to hide your results if you felt they were less than satisfactory. In the same view it should be clear to you that without full disclosure there is little help or input anyone here could give. 

One asking for help must first acknowledge they do not have all the answers.


----------



## qst42know

First I'll apologize if the brevity of my post came across as offensive.

Each of the issues I mentioned have been discussed somewhere on this forum at great length by smarter more experienced refiners than me.

Nylon becomes a sticky mess in acid so your bag is something else.

A green solution is considered dirty. Clean auric is a pleasant yellow when dilute or a very pleasant orange/red when really loaded with gold. 8) Gold can come down very slowly from green solutions over night or even longer and it's not as pure as it could be. By digesting first in nitric you are simplifying the elemental soup you are trying to recover from. Gold drops more thoroughly and in large clumps from clean solutions.

With luck your powder still had moisture in it, if not you blew it over the side of your dish with too harsh of a flame. Your oxy/acetylene torch is an excellent tool for melting gold and you should never experience a 70% loss if you use it properly. A well prepared, preheated dish and a small quiet slightly reducing flame is what you need, if you hear a harsh hissing sound turn the oxygen down some more. 

Lazersteve has a melt video on his site.


----------



## Anonymous

Thank you all for the wise counsel. I have been reading and absorbing much from across the entire forum. I have since returned to the problem of trying to obtain a yield of at least .50 gr per pentium pro chip and understand that pulverizing the chips first is essential towards that goal and I was ableto do that with a small manual three inch rock crusher which I bought on ebay. The thing works but is not the way to go to do any kind of volume, not to mention rough on the hands and the problem of silicon dust. Fearing silicosis from maybe doing this frequently in the future, I put on a dust mask. I researched around looking for a better way to accomplish this short of hiring a guy from Bangladesh to sit here all day and pound chips by hand and found a fellow who sells an automated pulverizing machine that accomplishes all that is needed while remediating the dust issue and also claims to turn chips and gold gravel into fine powder. You are probably already aware of it if not using such a machine aleady..."http://cgi.ebay.com/11-Inch-IMPACT-MILL-GOLD-SCRAP-RECOVERY-ORE-CRUSHER_W0QQitemZ330358238932QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_Bullion?hash=item4ceae2aed4" and it is for sale on ebay. If anyone has any experience with this machine or thoughts on it please share.

Anyway, I then proceeded to take my hard produced dust from three pro chips and placed it in a beaker with two pints of nitric acid mixed from distilled water, sodium nitrate and sulphuric acid to the reccomended proportions. I did so to remove all the base metals first as I had been advised woul be necessary to produce a "clean solution" free of base metals. Anyway, a solution that would be yellow instead of green. So far so good.

Unfortunately a new problem arose, one I am sure is not also without remedy, and it appears to have to do with the nature of the ceramic properties not being exothermic. In the past i had placed gold plated pins and junk jewelry into nitric solutions and watched it bubble and steam while observing the gold plate particles flake off the base metals and quickly coat the surface. In this case however, it did not happen. There was a little bubbling but not much and then I left the beaker alone and returned a few hours later expecting to find the job done. About nothing. The few gold pins stll visible and stuck on small fragments of ceramic were still intact. Any gold plating atop any remnent fragments of the ceramic casing were also still attached and had not floated off. In fact little seemed to have happened. Perplexed, I did more reading and learned somewhere that this ceramic material absorbs all the heat and actually inhibits the heat needed to separate the gold and dissolve off the base metals. I added a little more potency to the soiup but to no apprecaible affect and even sitting over night did not set the gold free except only marginally. I thought maybe the base metals had at least dissolved and so after a day I poured of the nitric acid and washed the fragments and sludge at the bottom, even though bits of gold pate were still visible on half eaten pins and ceramic. 

I then moved that into AR which had been ready three days and was not surprised to see the solution go a little green...or maybe a sort of yellow green or not as green as before, anyway....but not bright yellow either. So what to do to remedy this lack of dynamic activity in the nitric acid bath which seems to have something to with the lack of exothermic properties of the ceramic material? Bigger nitric acid bath solutions with smaller ammounts of powdered material dropped into the beaker over a longer period of time...or maybe more heat added via a hot plate beneath the beaker? Surely the solution to the solution is right before my eyes. Again, thank you for your wise counsel. JR


----------



## qst42know

Heating the poormans nitric will make a big difference. Two pints of solution seems excessive though. Enough solution to cover the material with heat, and enough time to finish the job with small additions if necessary. CPU pins are a tougher alloy and slower to remove than copper and brass from jewelery.

Stick to the plan and don't change to AR till the base metals are gone  .


----------



## Anonymous

Thank you,...I guess add more patience and some heat to the mix. Just curious: Do you know off hand how many oz of base metal a quart or gallon of nitric acid can absorb/dissolve before it is saturated? This is useful to know so one can calculate how much material one can safely add to a quart without over saturating it and having to contend with undissolved metal maybe getting into the AR. 

I already calculated by weighing them before and after, that six pentium pro chips that are merely smashed with a hammer and placed into AR loose 65 grams of weight. This is without running them through nitric acid first.

Before they were placed in AR they weighed 1 lb 2.5 oz
After the ceramic remains were taken from the AR they weighed 1 lb .40 oz
So basically 2.10 oz or 65 grams of metal dissolved dissolved in AR.

I am wondering if the same ratio applies to Nitric...minus any gold and PG of course since that does not dissolve. Thanks JR


----------



## goldsilverpro

JRuth,

This is a very ballpark figure and can vary a little based on the temperature and amount of dilution. I always had good luck assuming that 1 gallon of concentrated nitric will dissolve about 2 pounds of copper or 7 pounds of silver. These figures work out fairly well in practice.


----------



## lazersteve

JR,

Here's some more info on nitric to sodium nitrate ratios:

Sodium nitrate to nitrate 



Steve


----------



## Palladium




----------



## lazersteve

All,

This topic got me thinking about what parts of the Pentium Pro actually contain what portion of the gold. In an effort to accurately answer JRuth's question and to put my own mind at ease, I decided to process a single uncrushed PP to determine exactly what I could get from one cpu.

Here are the results of of my test:

1. This is a whole (no lids removed) PP cpu soaking in room temperature 35% H2O2 to attack the tungsten substrate of the heat spreader. To my surprise the peroxide also attacked the solder around the lower lid.







2. After an hour into the reaction I decided to try to speed things up a bit and added 15mL of 10% sulfuric acid and low heat. Here's what I got:






3. The heat got a little too hot and drove all the peroxide out in one big boil, I didn't lose anything, but the experience was pretty shocking as the beaker went into a runaway reaction of boiling and nearly overflowed. I quickly removed the beaker from the heat and in less than a minute everything calmed down. 

4. I placed the beaker back on the heat, but no further reaction occurred. Aside from missing it's lettering and a little pitting on the bottom braze and top lid, the cpu was still intact.

5. I decide to move on to 35% dilute nitric acid and attack the base metals of the lid and pins in an effort to remove the base metals and free the gold plating. Here's the cpu after an hour on low heat in 35% nitric and a gentle scrubbing rinse:

*Top: *




*
and bottom:*






6. I filtered out the foils from the top, legs and a little debris along with what appeared to be silver chloride (very little). I removed the bottom plate with a MAPP gas torch. I tested the solution for silver (negative) and combined the foils and cpu in a beaker with dilute AR. 

7. After an hour on medium heat with AR I obtained a beautiful orange yellow soluiton when the fizzing all stopped. I noticed the cpu still had some residual gold under the cpu dies and around the heat spreader so I removed the die's with a MAPP gas torch to expose the braze as seen here: 
*
Top:*





*and Bottom:*




*

Here's the cpu after the second AR treatment and rinsing:*

*Top:*





*and Bottom:*





8. Once all the action stopped on the final AR run I filtered the solution and precipitated with SMB. The powder was washed with hot HCl then water and finally melted and weighed. Here's a shot of the 0.310 gram BB of gold from the exterior of a single PP cpu:






I still haven't crushed the cpu to determine if the interior holds any gold or not. My guess it may yield another 0.1 gram from the braze under the top lid, but it's only a guess. I'll be very pleased if I see another 0.2 grams from the interior, but I'm not holding my breath. I'll have to wait until I get me hands on a good crusher before I post the remaining yields if there are any.

Please post your comments and suggestions.

Steve


----------



## glorycloud

Excellent post Steve!!!! 

Well done!!! 

8)


----------



## zamistro

Steve, Isn't AR supposed to be neutralized with Urea?


----------



## lazersteve

With gold I've never used urea to neutralize my AR. Instead I carefully control the amount of nitrate used during the dissolving stage to keep from having to evaporate off the NOx. 

With PGMs I perform three evaporation cycles, hydrating with HCl after each to displace the nitrate from the solution.

Steve


----------



## goldmelts

Thanks Steve, that was great


----------



## EVO-AU

Lasersteve: Just a thought here, but on what Zamistro said about neutralizing hcl with urea, I tried to do the same with nitric and urea, but absolutely nothing happened What gives ?


----------



## shadybear

Wow, I never used urea in anything but AR. Why would I want or need to use it in nitric or hcl


----------



## EVO-AU

I have no idea ShadyBear, but I would like to get some sort of answer to my previous post. I have no idea where I saw athe posts on using urea to neutralize nitric or hcl, but some sort of answer would be nice !!!!!!!! Phill


----------



## shadybear

EVO-AU said:


> I have no idea ShadyBear, but I would like to get some sort of answer to my previous post. I have no idea where I saw athe posts on using urea to neutralize nitric or hcl, but some sort of answer would be nice !!!!!!!! Phill


I have only used urea to neutralize nitric from an AR solution, it seems like it would take alot to neutralize nitric from nitric.
Where abouts is that in NC how close to the Ashville area gold up there I here


----------



## dallasgoldbug

Hey Steve, you can use my HCL carbon method. It will travel up inside the chips as it dissolves the pins. As it warms up with more current it will dissolve just about any PM including Platinum.

Just a thought.
DallasGoldBug :idea:


----------



## Anonymous

lazersteve said:


> 14. Add Sodium Meta Bisulfite to precipitate gold as brown powder.



How much Sodium metabisulfite? The other chemicals listed have amounts listed and this one doesn't.


----------



## leavemealone

Typically you want to use an equal amount of SMB,as the amount of gold you estimate in your solution IE:if you figure theres roughly 3 grams of gold,use 3 grams of SMB,then test your solution after decanting.If using copperas you need to double that figure.
Johnny


----------



## Anonymous

leavemealone said:


> Typically you want to use an equal amount of SMB,as the amount of gold you estimate in your solution IE:if you figure theres roughly 3 grams of gold,use 3 grams of SMB,then test your solution after decanting.If using copperas you need to double that figure.
> Johnny



Cool, thanks Johnny!


----------



## goldmelts

Great post Steve, thank you.

Any update on the yield of the interior?


----------



## plamenppp

Any final data?


----------



## Barren Realms 007

I found an interesting tibit this weekend. I have a batch of CPU's and Eproms I was running thru som AP. Well I had about 15 PPO's. I was going to run them thru AP to remove the pins and the gold under the silicone chip and then wash them and then deplate the heat sink in a cell. Much to my surprise when I checked this morning the Gold on the heat sink was deplating in a nice sheet. I thunk it might still be attached where the heat sink is attached to the CPU.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Ok NOXX I'm going to try your youtube connection. That is so easy you should have had this done a long time ago. Thanks for the effort is is great.

This is a video of a pentium pro soaked in HCL/ 32% peroxide.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehFPudP93vs[/youtube]




I do not claim that southern accent....  :roll: :lol: 8) :twisted:


----------



## glorycloud

LOL - does he filet fish with that knife as well?? :lol:


----------



## samuel-a

nice video barren.

you can truly see how thick is that plating dou to the fact that it's not crumbles but rather stays in a leaf form.
thats indicating minimum 30 MicroInch plating.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

glorycloud said:


> LOL - does he filet fish with that knife as well?? :lol:



Oh hell no. I forgot I had taken it ouside and found it on my step. It WAS one of my wife's knife's. :shock:


----------



## Barren Realms 007

samuel-a said:


> nice video barren.
> 
> you can truly see how thick is that plating dou to the fact that it's not crumbles but rather stays in a leaf form.
> thats indicating minimum 30 MicroInch plating.




Yea it comes off real nice in a sheet. The gold under the silicone chips is not quite as thick IMHO but it is close, it will stay together as well in a small sheet. I'm looking forward to see what this 20 lbs of material will give me.


----------



## lazersteve

Barren,

The higher percentage peroxide likely attacked the tungsten in the heat spreader as in my experiment above. As an added bonus the copper II chloride assited by attacking the copper in the heat spreader also.

Steve


----------



## GrailSeeker

I am really curious especially about the PPros. I think I am going to smash all chips first thing tommorow by putting each inside a towel and unleash hell. About the PPros as I have mentioned before not all weigh the same and die depends on cache size too. Are these fine threads of buses plated or real gold?


----------



## GrailSeeker

And so I did today, unfortunatelly I have a few smaller IC's which I manage to pull out of their board along with a part of it. Any idea of how to get rid of it before sinking them all in AR?


----------



## Anonymous

> I think I am going to smash all chips first thing tommorow by putting each inside a towel and unleash hell.


You will end up losing some material through the threads of the towel.The material in a towel is not dense enough to stop total penetration of crushed material.Plus there are so many other ways to crush them to a powder with little or no effort.I bought a homemade ballmill today for $20 at a scrap yard,fully complete,then I found a neat device but Im not sure what it was for.It is a pretty large electric motor hooked up to a worm drive gear step down (rpm reducer).Both had reostats and 110v plugs on them.


> About the PPros as I have mentioned before not all weigh the same


Can you please elaborate?Are you talking about a couple of milligrams,or a couple of grams?


----------



## GrailSeeker

With the first couple of attempts with 'Thor's Hammer' ( aka sledge :mrgreen: ) , indeed fibers caught a few pins and sharp edges. So I then included everything in a plastic bag and then with a towel. When finished hitting them, I unloaded all of it carefully on an A4 sheet and separated with gloves the larger pieces still unshmashed. The rest went to a small plastic bag. 

As for the Pros' weight:

87,3
87,5
88,6
87,8
88,7
88

A bit funny, though it may not mean a thing.


----------



## slouma37

catfish said:


> Hi Gold digger:
> 
> I am kinda like you, some what confused. I am on ebay quite a bit and see folks bidding several dollars for pentium pro chips. I have done many pentium pro chips in the past and never took the time to really get serious about the exact gold content in a pentium pro cpu chip.
> 
> Well I just finished two unoffical tests on refining pentium pro cpu chips. I crushed two (2) pentium pro chips very fine and ran them through an Aqua Regia of Nitrate soda and hydrocloric. I then neutrilized the nitric acid to .60 PH and then precipitated with Sodium Met. Let one batch of two sit for eight hours and then decanted off liquid and washed the mud with distilled water and the aqua ammonia then rewashed again for three times with distilled water, dried mud on hot plate and then put it in my oven. Cooked for 40 minutes and then dumped in a sulphric acid to knock off the flux. I also used my special homemade flux to make sure I burn off most unwanted metals. Gold comes out pretty good. The nugget came out at .7 grams.
> 
> I then repeated the same test again, except I let this batch sit for 24 hours before decanting, I then poured off the settled gold and then I ran the entire spent aqua regia through my Buchner vacumm filter, using a fine filter. I dried the filter and burned it to ashes and then dried the gold using the above technique. I then melted the gold with the burned filter paper ashes and beleive it or not I got a nugget of .7 Grams.
> 
> My calculation is gold at $661.00 per oz. I get 98% spot price for all my gold. This represents about $14.58 per nugget. or $7.29 per chip. I dont understand why some of these folks are paying 5 to 8 dollars per chip. They must know something that I dont.
> 
> Catfish


Hi Catfish,
my question is did u run the aqua regia on all the rest of pp ?
u dident remove the pins chemically first ? 
why not précipitate gold from pins and cup first by cell then, chimically remove the pins and other materials in between gold , and then crush them to powder as much u can to put in AR and continue the process as described.

Coz i'm facing this problem now and dunno what to do exactly, i'd like that some of the masters like u answer my questions
Thanks in advence


----------



## Harold_V

You may not receive a response from Catfish. He hasn't been on the board since April of this year. 

Harold


----------



## lazersteve

Here's one of my experiments on Pentium Pro yields:

Pentium Pro Yields


Steve


----------



## Anonymous

slouma37 said:


> Coz i'm facing this problem now and dunno what to do exactly, i'd like that some of the masters like u answer my questions


I wouldn't call myself a master,however I am sure I can add some light to your problem.I have a ball mill and I always process my chips to extract the visible gold first before they go into the mill.This will help in a couple of different ways.
Unless you are operating a wet mill,which I am not,you will ALWAYS lose a small percentage of values.Granted it is a minute amount,however the higher the PM concentration in the powder,the higher the amount of values lost.By "pre"processing them you remove all visible gold from the mix.
Also there are some people that say that some of the gold can accumulate on the inside walls of the mill from being pounded into the metal.It is not a value that is lost per se,however it is a value that will need to be removed to be recovered.I have never experienced this personally,but by "pre"processing,I do not have to worry about it happening too much.
Also I "pre"process with poormans AR so my chemical use is always at a minimum.


----------



## slouma37

Well ty Harold, Steve, mic.
I read all ur posts Steve and Harold but i still missing something in the refining process on both HCl-Cl and AR methods.

I'm losing lot of money acquiering cpu's anso...and getting disappointed on all my results, yields !
Sure i read ur pentium pro result Steve and more than once. But i couldent fix my problem of getting till now maximum 1gr per pound of fingers (acid peroxyde method and, 1 gr per kilo of Intel Pentium cermaic cpu's (between electolytic cell process and AR process on powdered ceramic without the top lid moved with map gaz torch).

May the urea in excess to denox, be the problem ? Why i'm asking this question ? coz my best result was without using it on AR to denox, when i used the heat to 1/3 and adding HCl etc...to denox.

I test evry liquid after filtration to see if somthing escaped like here and there was advised by Harold.
I test even the filter it self (i'm filtering in ceramic buchner under vacuum)

I'm using SMB and the very little gold i get is washed with Harold procedure.

i'm using very clean lab tools (beachers, funnels, erlenmeyrs, filtration glass, just the filters i use are coffee high quality ones)

Can someone tell me where the he.. i'm doing the mistake ?
Thanks alot and excuse my english (not my mother language).

Best regards,
Salim


----------



## glorycloud

If the fingers you are processing are not cut close to the edge of the
visible gold, then the weight of the excess board will throw off your
estimated gold yield. One pound of close cut fingers will normally
have a much better gold yield than fingers that are not cut close or
have extra caps, etc. still attached. 

AND all fingers are not the same as far as gold content is concerned.
Newer manufactured fingers may have a lower yield than fingers from
older ISA cards. Many fingers are not fully populated like the fingers
from memory or from slot one processors or riser cards which will
also give you a lower yield as there is not as much gold per finger.

Just a few thoughts for you to consider in addition to your thoughts
on how you may be having gold losses while processing.


----------



## slouma37

Ty Glorycloud for ur reply, i'm consious of that but i'll give u an example of what i'm facing as problem:
i dissolved 0.25 gr of 18 carat gold to try analyse where was my mistake or where i'm losing values when recovering.
The experience: dissolution in 8ml HCl 23% + 2 mL of 60% HNO3 of 0.25 Gr 18Carat gold. I must Theorically reover 0.1875 Gr of 24 Carat let's say 99.95%
i used 2.5 Gr of urea to denox after dissolution then i added 2 mL of saturated SMB (+54gr/100 mL).
after syphoning carefully then washing etc, i can get only 0.17Gr
it's 9.33% of loss.
if anyone can help , thanks in advence and just know i'm really desperate with this.


----------



## philddreamer

I learned here on the forum, that jewellery maked, lets say 18k, its not always 18k. It can, & almost always is 17.5 or even less, because the law allows that 
-.5 of a karat. 
There're post on the subject which helped me in finding why I was short on the gold I expected. Since, I calculate my gold 1k under &, so far, I recover gold as expected or a bit more.

Try calculating @ 17k, or 17.5k & compare with your result.

Hope this helps some.

Phil


----------



## slouma37

hi Phil,
yeah in this case the error will be 4% instead of 9.33%. 
right now i'm running again an experience with my 1.46 Gr button in 45 ml/11.6mL AR same acid concentrations and let's c...
this time i aint use urea , just heating to denox coz i still suspect that an excess of urea as a reductor too can reduce other metal dissolved that returns to metal and then this metal denoxed is getting plated by some gold that when i use smb, i'm not getting it !!!!!!
Maybe thus why Steve never use urea too by experience...coz the heat process take around 3 hours and the urea addition about 30 minutes too.

thanks for helping


----------



## Barren Realms 007

slouma37 said:


> hi Phil,
> yeah in this case the error will be 4% instead of 9.33%.
> right now i'm running again an experience with my 1.46 Gr button in 45 ml/11.6mL AR same acid concentrations and let's c...
> this time i aint use urea , just heating to denox coz i still suspect that an excess of urea as a reductor too can reduce other metal dissolved that returns to metal and then this metal denoxed is getting plated by some gold that when i use smb, i'm not getting it !!!!!!
> Maybe thus why Steve never use urea too by experience...coz the heat process take around 3 hours and the urea addition about 30 minutes too.
> 
> thanks for helping



Are you premixing your AR? Use your nitric in small amounts. Don't premix.


----------



## slouma37

Hi Barren,
no i diden't premix, i put the scrap in a pyrex beacher , i add my HCl 23% 45 mL then my Nitric 11.6 mL immediately and cover with a ceramic that fit the top of the cylindric beacher, so that no gaz can escape and return to solution for maximum effectivness. i check the beacher and let the reaction goes. i started this on my 1.46 Gr last night @ 21:15 and today @ 9 the solution is dark orange and the button still not dissolved.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

You might want to consider adding your nitric in small amounts and see if you helps you.


----------



## slouma37

But Barren i'm using exact amount of nitric given by steve's formula
31 ml / 8mL to dissolve one gram of gold.
and my problem is just this:
Why i'm not recovering 98% minimum of my gold from cpu's and fingers ?
i can incriminate the use of urea to denox AR

and the use of H2O2 added to my AR to reduce fumes also on my batch of powdered Intel Pentium (remember i recoverd 0.17 Gr gold powder from 425 Gr of cpu powder) that's too low. and here i know that 27% h2o2 can dissolve some gold alone wich can't be recovered by SMB.

Thanks


----------



## slouma37

Hi all, i did a huge error now :
i dunno why i forget to filter before putting SMB so after that i decided to filter before the precipitation starts and the result was after rincing the filter , i get the solution yellow without any precipitation and the filter tested with stannic showed positive even if i rinced it very well till it looks white (original color of the filter).
now i'm evaporating my AR diluted with the rince, coz when i put smb i realized that some NOx came off. my Solution was then still UNDENOXED.


----------



## philddreamer

Slouma wrote:
"...and here i know that 27% h2o2 can dissolve some gold alone wich can't be recovered by SMB."

Have you tried cementing with copper?


----------



## slouma37

No never yet Phil, i'll look at some examples in the forum on how and when we use that method


----------



## philddreamer

It is simple, test with stannous chloride, if + for gold, get some clean copper & put it in the solution; let it sit for a couple of days. The gold, if any silver, or platinum in the solution should cement, or drop from solution. even if it test neg for gold, I add some clean copper to the solution & let sit for a while. Then filter the solution, & the sediment I run thru HCl/Cl or AR * follow the standard procedures.

Here is a copy of the reactivity Series: http://www.zephyrus.co.uk/thereactivityseries.html ; become familiar with it, it's a most when cementing.

Check on some post on the topic.

Phil


----------



## slouma37

Ty so much phil for the help.
Just as i deduce, ur a neighbour and i think with such wether we getting last days all reactions goes slow.
1/ It's actually like 4°C, and most of gold seems to take ages to dissolve, i gave it a heat under my fireplace with a candel (+- 60°C ) and the dissolution was all done in like 30 minutes.

2/ even if i did a mistake by putting msb before filtering, i filtered and continue the hit to denox more and some urea cristals dident fizz so i added my smb again and it's now a very nice spongy brown precipit.
i'll wash by harold method, then melt and weigh the button.

the problem is now how to get the rest of the gold from the filter paper ?
aqua reggit all in or, rince till test is negatif and boil the solution before aqua reggit...
thanks


----------



## philddreamer

To recover the gold from filter papers I run the filter thru HCl/Cl. I ussually save the filters until I have enough so I can recover several grams. 

Always test your solution after dropping your gold. Save the spent solution & put some clean copper so any pm's left, drop. After a few days, test with stannous cl, if neg. now add some iron. The copper will drop, & the solution is safer to dispose. 8)


----------



## slouma37

Ty Phil for these great advice !
And i got a bad surprise : when washing with Hcl some of the solution turns deep yellow and after syphoning it tests +++ soo dark violet . I guess that Urea was evaporating leaving the No3- in solution that dissolves gold again am i right ? may i use SMB to reprecipite it ? or urea then smb ?

the good surprise : is the rest of gold recovered and washed is great clear tan ,light-brown. i guess it's the 4 * 9 powder.
Thanks


----------



## philddreamer

Yeap, if there's still traces of nitric when you add the HCl you get a weak AR that will dissolve some of the gold. Some urea or heat so you evaporate the nitric, or like Harold's prefered method, add a gold buttom that will dissolve & thus get rid of nitric. Either way will work. Then SMB.

Next time, add your nitric in small increments @ a time. 

Nice lite tan is good. .9999 I'm not so sure; but .995+ more likely. 8)


----------



## slouma37

Thank u so much Phil for ur precious help.
Just before i read ur post, i put some 85% formic like 20 mL to c what will happen as it's a reducing acid, but nothing seems to change right now.
I'll take this solution the way u advice me and will report the result.
Thanks again Phil


----------



## Anonymous

There is an even easier way i think to get hold of aqua regis, A new method, with just water and cooking salt. Coldboil NaCl with H2O and the Nitrogen and oxygenin the air will react with it to have HCl + HNO3 + Na... A bird whispered this method in my ear... I guess it works...


----------



## butcher

that would be a weak enough aqua regia to drink. unless cold boil is something special.
if pulling a vacuum boils off water it would also boil off any nitrogen and hydrogen from the air, and IF any HCL, or nitric could form in minute amounts they too would boil off in vacuum, if indeed cold boil is created from a vacuum.

can you tell us more about this bird wispering to you, and give more information? otherwise sorry I am skeptical as usual.


----------



## Anonymous

Haven't you heard of occhams razor, the most simpliest way is often the right one...

Let's say ½-1hour


----------



## Anonymous

Coldboil, all i can say that during the time alchemy was at hand HCl and HNO3 was called spirits of salt


----------



## butcher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor, never heard of it, but scanning through this its seems double talk to me, maybe my mind is too simple to understand this?

tell us more about this salt water.

Alchemy, I do not know much about it but I thought is was full of witchcraft magic some science and alot of bull to keep people in the dark, science may have origins there but as far as I can see alchemy study today is like trying to go back to the cave days in the dark, and taking your mind into a maze of puzzels with no reason. ther may be some clues to some lost chemistry in that study but you will most likely be lost in the maze trying to find it. personally I would forget that science, and spend what little time I have on earth with real science if that is what interested me. I do not mean any offence but from what little I have read of it it looked like alot of bull to me so I did not look further, tell me more about this salt water, change my mind about Alchemy, maybe it is my mind in the dark in this maize of my brain.


----------



## butcher

welcome to the forum, One_Mile_Shadow, forget what you have learned about metals and alchemy, you have joined the best place in the world to learn about metals and the chemistry of refining them. and from our short discussion I can see you are very smart, and will go far here, If you can get around what you have learned and what you will learn if you stick around here. mixing alchemy and refining you will learn from this forum can give you trouble.


----------



## Anonymous

stop tapping your pigsfeet then...


----------



## Barren Realms 007

One_Mile_Shadow said:


> stop tapping your pigsfeet then...



That is one saying have never heard.

No need to throw pigs feet in, they have sensative feelings too.

Anyway welcome to the forum, You possibly need to do a lot of reading.


----------



## Anonymous

Ok i can tell you more about alchemy, if you teach me to refine gold through chemistry...


----------



## Anonymous

This is what i can reveal without being banned (i hope) as for goldrefining in ancient times. Manna, Milk, and Honey boiled on the stove, tried in the oven as a sacrifice to the Judge of Israel, as was concidered a precisous metal. Remeber Gold existed long time before modern chemistry. Later the preists took the vowes from nazarites and put it in water and bubble bubbles in it this is a base rather then an acid, but it was used to refine what we know today as "Judengold". This method to do gold by jewish preists was common until the world war 2 when nazis took their hands on practially every gold jews created...


----------



## goldenchild

One_Mile_Shadow said:


> This is what i can reveal without being banned (i hope) as for goldrefining in ancient times. Manna, Milk, and Honey boiled on the stove, tried in the oven as a sacrifice to the Judge of Israel, as was concidered a precisous metal. Remeber Gold existed long time before modern chemistry. Later the preists took the vowes from nazarites and put it in water and bubble bubbles in it this is a base rather then an acid, but it was used to refine what we know today as "Judengold". This method to do gold by jewish preists was common until the world war 2 when nazis took their hands on practially every gold jews created...



Just curious why you would be interested in refining gold chemically when you can use this method and whatever else goes with it which you are not allowed to tell us?


----------



## butcher

thanks, well I will help you as much as I can, but, you have to do all the work.
gold has always took hard work as far as I know, you will need to get a copy of Hoke's book, there is a download for this book on the forum, reading it will give you an education on refining, also Laser Steve , a member here has a web site, with video's. and information on alot of the processes we use for recovering and then refining gold from electronic scrap.
these will get you started, then reading through this forum there is a goldmine of information.
be respectful to all members as we are a group, and we keep this forum this best place to learn about refining, we also discourage nonsense as that would only make confusion and trouble. 

run into trouble with a process ask questions there is a very smart group of people here and one of them can help you through it. also professional refiners here are a backbone of this group they also work hard to keep us all in line.

Now get Hokes book see what you have been missing.


----------



## Harold_V

One_Mile_Shadow said:


> Ok i can tell you more about alchemy, if you teach me to refine gold through chemistry...


Heh! 
Let's say it like this. You are welcome to join us as a group, and are free to learn the art of refining, but one thing you must understand---we are a gathering of intelligent people, not often taken by nonsense. Alchemy is just that---nonsense. Here---you will be expected to discuss the processing of precious metals in the real world, not one of your imagination or, perhaps, your liking. Do abandon any thoughts of wasting time here discussing alchemy, and also that of religion. 

We have readers here from all corners of the globe. Please keep your comments such that they remain neutral--with no religious overtones. 

I do not suffer fools gladly. I hope your comment about tapping pigs feet was said in jest. I am very sensitive to unkind comments made towards my friend, butcher. Please refrain from such comments on this forum. Show due respect to all readers. 

Read Hoke. Read Hoke again, until what she tells you makes sense. 

Harold


----------



## butcher

No offence taken when I type on the computer it is like tapping my pig's feet, I thought it was funny.
Listen to Harold and read His posts, along with Hokes book, and you will learn to refine gold and gold to a high purity following his advice, Harold also has a way of helping us refine our character, Harold’s advice can be taken to the bank.

Here on the forum if you work at it you will also learn chemistry, learn to recover and refine metals, it takes the mystery out of Alchemy.you meet some really great people always willing to help, sometimes it may seem like something somebody says is offensive, hardly ever will that be the case here, so try not to take offence at someone’s comments, most of the time it comes out in the wash that comment was only meant to help and it was the persons judgment, or not wanting to hear the comment that creates confusion and hard feelings, with out being able to see the person in person we discuss these things with, comments can be taken wrong, try to hold back on ego and hurt feelings and we soon see we are all here to help each other refine gold and other metals.


----------



## Harkey1

I need a little clarification on step 25 of Steve's "poorman's ar" recipe. Step #25 indicates that we start over at step 3 with just the gold powders. That is understood...Isn't that a little much Sodium Nitrate to be used for a purification run. All or most of the impurities and all of the base metals have been removed already. So...My question is how much should we use on this run with just the gold powder?
Thank you
Glenn


----------



## gold4mike

You should add it slowly, watching for the reaction to stop, the adding a little bit more. Your goal is to use no more nitrate than needed to completely dissolve the gold. Otherwise you have to use the evaporation method, urea, or add a piece of pure gold of known weight to use up the rest of the nitric so you can precipitate fully.


----------



## Harkey1

I have another question. When I get to step 9 and 10 and pour off the dark liquid, Is there going to be any gold disolved in it? If so, do I need to boil all of the dark fluid later to boil off the Nitric for precipitation?


----------



## jimdoc

Harkey1 said:


> Is there going to be any gold disolved in it?



This is a question you should answer with stannous. So you know for sure.

Jim


----------



## Harkey1

I am setting up some stannus now. My situation is this:
1. Just before winter set in last year, I started a large lot of cell phone components that had plated pins etc. I started disolving them in HCL and Peroxide. It desolved all of the base metals and then I could not get out to finish the process. It eventually dried and left me with a huge mess to seperate and a lot of powders. I understand that there are a lot of other metals besides gold there. I figured that the best thing to do is to go to an AR process. I have drained a concentrated mixture off 2 times and started over with step 3. I am now on step 9 for the 5th or 6th time. It looks like I will have to drain off and filter again and start from step 3 again. This seems excessive since there are no solids in the mix. Please advise...


----------



## Harkey1

Now I have started over at step 3 again. In following the steps I find no Red or Brown fumes. I assume that this means that There is nothing left to disolve or absorb.


----------



## Harold_V

Harkey1 said:


> I have another question. When I get to step 9 and 10 and pour off the dark liquid, Is there going to be any gold disolved in it? If so, do I need to boil all of the dark fluid later to boil off the Nitric for precipitation?


Do not use the term *boil* when you mean evaporate. That is not an acceptable approach to evaporating solutions that contain values, as some are lost in the process. If you mean evaporate, that's what you should say.

Harold


----------



## Harkey1

Ok? point taken. 

Terminology correction.......check
Answer to question...........?


----------



## butcher

I get confused by the steps sounds like dancing to me.

If you have no solids (base metals to react with any free nitric in the solution, it will not produce NOx gases (the brown fumes I think you are asking about), I think it is very possible you could have nitric in solution but no more metals for it to attack, 

Harold has given us a very good tool to help eliminate nitric in solution, adding a bit of gold, You could try something similar to this with other materials, like memory fingers if you already have a solution loaded with base metals, I am at a loss to exactly what you are working on so it hard to advise.


----------



## Harkey1

Right on the head. 
1. recombine all of the solutions that I have poured off and eliminate the nitric at the same time. with gold
2. all of the powders filtered out need to be back the solutions for the finish treatment...correct?
3.a stannus test will not show a positive as long as there is nitric or chlorine (not in this solution, but in general) in the solution. so get rid of it. 
4. nothing will drop as long as there is nitric or chlorine in the mix.
Do I have it correct?
My question was how to make sure that there was no more nitric in the solution when we are notgetting the gas anymore?
As one of the steps we are told to put the solids back into the pot. does that include the powders and gold dust in the mix. From my understanding there should be nothing left dust or otherwise. the Nitric should contain it all and require precipitating it all one at a time.
Am I off base?


----------



## jimdoc

What exactly did you start with and how much? 
I don't understand why you want to put something you filtered out of the solution back in, unless you are sure what it is. Are you sure what it is?

Jim


----------



## Harkey1

I started with 20 oz of plastic parts from cell phones from last fall. they all disolved in Hcl/Peroxide. So I have been using my electric cell and decided to pour off the sulfuric and filter. I added the powder to the mix from the dried hcl and peroxide and put it in the poormans ar. I had no solids at all in any part of it. There was almost 25 grams of powder from the cell. by my understanding the ar is supposed to completely absorb everything. that is why I am wondering about putting it back. The thinking is to let it absorb everything and then precipitate one element at a time.


----------



## butcher

Harkey1, it sounds to me you are making this more complicated, and sorry it is hard to follow you and exactly what you are doing so trying to help is hard.

if you deplated gold from a sulfuric cell and have the washed powders, and now dissolving them in aqua regia (poor mans), the only problem I see with poor mans in my opinion would be with any silver which may also form sulfates of silver with silver chloride, from the sulfate salts from the reaction with fertilizers, lead would also be mixed with these if it was also in solution, all would be left as insoluble powders, easily decanted and filtered, basically you have values dissolved in aqua regia, once dissolved, use evaporation (the gold if you have it) to drive off nitric as NOx fumes, taking it down to a thick syrup, rewetting with some HCL, and repeat for three evaporations, this will eliminate nitric in solution, add to dilute 4 to 10 time's the solutions amount in water, let this set overnight, you will most likely have white salts of any silver lead and other insoluble’s the next morning, carefully decant (pour off or suction out ) the solution careful not to disturb the white settlement in bottom of vessel, filter this solution, now you can use the chemical of your choice to precipitate the gold as brown or black powders, depending on purity of your solution, remember to test with stannous chloride , also see Harold’s technique for washing gold powder, (?? getting gold pure I believe was the post he put it in??).

Hope I did not leave out any details, I think you are getting there, it will be easier as you get more practice.

Edit for spell check and periods


----------



## Harkey1

Ok, I have no more solids so I need to drive off the nitric. I have no gold to do that with. I will now find a way to get rid of the nitric in all of the filtered solutions and what is in the pot.


----------



## jimdoc

Butcher just explained how to get rid of the nitric with evaporation in his last post.

Jim


----------



## Harkey1

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I mis read his post. 
I'm on it. 
Thanks again. I will let yall know how it comes out.


----------



## samuel-a

*Part -1*

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ_R8Gr26kk[/youtube]


*Part - 2*

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv4CcaTVJqY[/youtube]

All comments, suggestions and questions are welcomed 8)


----------



## nmlfreitas

Very nice videos samuel-a. It will help a lot.
Thanks


----------



## Geo

Great videos Sam.

will this work the same way with ceramic IC's like Eproms? this is a sample of about ten pounds i ran through some old AP to remove the legs, i think it did very well.


notice the holes where the legs were?


the etching stopped well before it reached the center.


----------



## samuel-a

Geo

I'm not certain the gold content (if there is any) will justify the process.

From my experience, copper tends to complicate a direct AR process, both the leaching and precipitation.


With CPU's (lids removed) you can expect in solution:
Au, Ag, Pb, Sn, Fe, Co, Ni

None of which pose much truble in dilute solution. With Pb being most persistent, followed by Ag.


----------



## philddreamer

Very good Samuel!

Thank you!

Phil


----------



## goldsilverpro

Excellent as usual, Sam!

Geo,

Those ceramic DIPS are generally 2 flat pieces of ceramic held together with fused glass. The ceramic contains 5-10% glass, so everything fuses together. With the legs still on them, I once heated them up to about 900F (I'm thinking) and then quenched them in water. The glass pulverized and they fell apart. Worth a try. Heat one up with a torch and drop it in water. Of course, you don't want to melt anything.

I ran a couple of buckets of them. After quenching, I think I tumbled them a little, as is, in a cement mixer to thoroughly break the metal lead frame away from the ceramic. I don't remember if I dried them first or not. The ceramic pieces were still whole.

That was 35 years ago. However, I just found a couple of companies on the internet that sell modern parts like those. They both said that glass was used to seal the parts.

There are many ways to skin a cat, of course.

Chris


----------



## Geo

will do.


----------



## jack_burton

Looking for the like button.... Great video's Sam!


----------



## vegaswinner

Thanks for the guide Sam,,, I'd been hoping a genuine video tutorial would appear for ceramics... I have a couple of questions, would this process work with ambient temperature AR? If so I'd assume it would take longer, any idea how much extra time would be required? Also, is it absolutely necessary the pins be detached from the cpu? I've tried so many times now on numerous ceramics and the pins just refuse to fall out. Ive been heating them with mapp and giving a good flick but they wont detach. Thanks


----------



## samuel-a

vegaswinner said:


> Thanks for the guide Sam,,, I'd been hoping a genuine video tutorial would appear for ceramics... I have a couple of questions, would this process work with ambient temperature AR? If so I'd assume it would take longer, any idea how much extra time would be required? Also, is it absolutely necessary the pins be detached from the cpu? I've tried so many times now on numerous ceramics and the pins just refuse to fall out. Ive been heating them with mapp and giving a good flick but they wont detach. Thanks



vegaswinner

The process could be done without heat.
I do not do it cold mainly due to the low activity of the AR, remember, my suggestion is not to pre-mix 4:1 AR, but slowly adding the nitric.
The consequence being, that one would have to add more nitric then actually needed just to keep the reaction going in a reasonable time period.

You can use excess nitric (at 4:1 ratio) and later use urea, but you must learn how to test your solution and really know what you are doing, every step. 
potentially, dissolution can take a full day or so.
With heat, it goes down to 2-3 hours (and less acid consumption)


For the record, i did not suggested to remove pins from ceramic type CPU's, but from the fiber type.
The pins at most ceramic type CPU's intrude the ceramic, the pin actually looks like this: -|-----


----------



## vegaswinner

Thanks for your reply Sam... Which tests would i need to familiarize myself with? I am familiar with stannous for the purpose of testing for pm's in solution, but I am not familiar with any other tests as yet. Although I would be using nitric I would follow your guide not pre mixing AR, adding it incrementally to the HCL until the reaction exhausts. Would this be a situation where instead of urea I could follow one of Harolds tricks and add a gold button to the mix to use up excess nitric? Sorry if I misunderstood regarding the removal of pins, in your video at 31 seconds you just briefly mentioned pins removed notice the kovar metal. I take it from your reply kovar is not contained in any ceramics? Thanks


----------



## samuel-a

vegaswinner 

Knowing how and when to test with SnCl2 is part of every recovery process. If you know it you are good to go.

I can see now where the confusion come from, the picture at sec 31 of the removed pins was taken for sake of demonstration.
To do that, i have leached one cpu in nitric acid to a point which the pins fell off.


I think very highly of Harold's method, though i came to learn that no "de-NOx"ing is needed if you add only minimal amounts of nitric.
Say you happen to add too much nitric, Urea can be quite useful (and fast) in this case, mainly due to the high volume of the resulting solution.

De-NOx-ing is an added step which could be avoided easily, both by the experienced operator and the novice.


----------



## Geo

i tried a couple of experiments with the ceramic chips and this is what happened.

i heated one to a cherry red and dropped it into cold water like Lou suggested, it did come apart but the fused glass did not separate like i was hoping. i may have over heated the chip and melted the glass so i will try this one again at varying temps.

i then put a couple in fresh hcl and warmed it to 100 degrees C. the hcl reacted to the glass. after about 15 minutes the two ceramic layers came apart and the glass turned into a white powder sediment.this makes me think that this could be a pretreatment to remove the glass and legs from the chips for further processing, perhaps in AR as per your videos.


----------



## Smack

Geo said:


> i tried a couple of experiments with the ceramic chips and this is what happened.
> 
> i heated one to a cherry red and dropped it into cold water like Lou suggested, it did come apart but the fused glass did not separate like i was hoping. i may have over heated the chip and melted the glass so i will try this one again at varying temps.
> 
> i then put a couple in fresh hcl and warmed it to 100 degrees C. the hcl reacted to the glass. after about 15 minutes the two ceramic layers came apart and the glass turned into a white powder sediment.this makes me think that this could be a pretreatment to remove the glass and legs from the chips for further processing, perhaps in AR as per your videos.



Geo, would the dissolved glass pose a problem when you try to get the silver out of nitric?


----------



## Geo

it may add a step. i havent dealt with the white powder yet.ive heard hot hcl will dissolve silver which then precipitates as silver chloride when it cools.im sure the glass has silver mixed with it but the glass is non-reactive so i dont see a problem converting with sulfuric and steel.the added step would be to dissolve with nitric to separate from the glass.


----------



## arthur kierski

Very,very good Sam------
thanks and congratulations
Arthur


----------



## Acid_Bath76

Nice videos! Just curious, but why don't you do an initial leach with hot HCL?


----------



## goldsilverpro

Geo said:


> i tried a couple of experiments with the ceramic chips and this is what happened.
> 
> i heated one to a cherry red and dropped it into cold water like Lou suggested, it did come apart but the fused glass did not separate like i was hoping. i may have over heated the chip and melted the glass so i will try this one again at varying temps.
> 
> i then put a couple in fresh hcl and warmed it to 100 degrees C. the hcl reacted to the glass. after about 15 minutes the two ceramic layers came apart and the glass turned into a white powder sediment.this makes me think that this could be a pretreatment to remove the glass and legs from the chips for further processing, perhaps in AR as per your videos.



I can't see HCl reacting with the glass. Maybe it's some sort of epoxy on those particular parts.


----------



## Geo

the sample was broad.the first photo in the post above.not sure as to the cause but the effect was definite reaction with the white portion between the two ceramic layers. it didnt dissolve but more of fell apart. its still mixed with the silver chloride powder but the two white substances is very different. the silver is pasty and mushy and the white substrate is gritty and course. i havent tried to separate with mesh but i did consider it. the next batch i do, i will document with pictures and post them.


----------



## samuel-a

Acid_Bath76 said:


> Nice videos! Just curious, but why don't you do an initial leach with hot HCL?



Acid_Bath76

It is my opinion the the material is rich enough to run straight in AR, considering the BM present.
Also, the plating of old ceramic is quite thick (ulike with new fiber type) and is effectively distubing the penetration of acid down to BM, slowing the reaction.

I have tried before, boiling a cpu in HCl alone and in Nitric alone... it took several good hours to get rid of most of BM, therefore my opinoin is to just do it all in one dissolution step.

Some, may prefer it otherwaise and that's fine, the good old saying never dies: there's more then one way to skin a cat.


----------



## philddreamer

I skin my cat like you skin yours Sam! :mrgreen: 

One must keep in mind that we are either, recovering or refining. 
Now, some members prefer to add extra steps in their process, in order to end up with higher purity. 

After running 2 test batches of 6 Pentium Pro's, the first thru HCl, then AR, I found that the HCl did very little to get rid of BM's, (the acid didn't even change color), so I just added nitric & finished the recovery. 
I proceeded with the second batch of 6 Pentium Pro's running them first thru 50/50 nitric. This got rid of some BM's, (very little), and the rinsing of the ceramics I found too tedious. I felt I just wasted some of my time...

I, like Samuel, prefer to run the material from the beginning thru AR; the amount of BM's is minimal, (in the P-Pro's), to affect the recovery, thus making the task simpler. (There're more details to the processes).

Phil


----------



## cnbarr

I recently ran a batch of AMD athelon/durons ceramic cpus through AR for recovery and quickly learned it was a bad idea for these type of cpus. I ended up will a pile of rusty looking goo, I was still able to recover my values, but it was much more work.

With my Pentiums and 386/486 I haven't yet had a 
Problem running them directly in AR.


----------



## philddreamer

That's true Cnbarr; I also ran a batch of the newer ceramics, thru AR & ended up with a similar mess.
Then I tried another batch thru HCl first & the acid turned very dark. I then rinsed & ran thru AR & it was a better ending. Any silver drops as the solution cools, lead drops with some sulphuric & the left over with Pd goes to the stock pot.
Again, I'm just recovering the gold. If I want the gold finer, I just run it a second time thru AR. 

The newer ceramics cpu's should go thru HCl or nitric first, (I prefer HCl), in order to get rid of some of the junk. The idea of running thru diluted nitric is to remove the silver, Pd & other base metals... but I find that having to deal with the time of rinsings & silver chloride left over, I rather not use nitric. 

Take care!

Phil


----------



## cnbarr

Hi Phil,
I agree as well, I ran another couple of batches of AMD's one with an HCL bath and one with a dilute Nitric bath to start and got very similar results in the end. The nitric works faster, but you have more time in rinsing, HCl is a bit slower and less rinses. So for others I suppose it would come down to time and chemical cost, I get nitric fairly cheap so it is sixes for me.

I found most ceramic cpu's each have a slight variance in the method used to process them, depending on the age and type; I always try to separate them by brand and type, so I don't run into a rouge cpu that might cause problems if I decide to go straight to AR with no per-processing.

Happy Friday everyone



philddreamer said:


> That's true Cnbarr; I also ran a batch of the newer ceramics, thru AR & ended up with a similar mess.
> Then I tried another batch thru HCl first & the acid turned very dark. I then rinsed & ran thru AR & it was a better ending. Any silver drops as the solution cools, lead drops with some sulphuric & the left over with Pd goes to the stock pot.
> Again, I'm just recovering the gold. If I want the gold finer, I just run it a second time thru AR.
> 
> The newer ceramics cpu's should go thru HCl or nitric first, (I prefer HCl), in order to get rid of some of the junk. The idea of running thru diluted nitric is to remove the silver, Pd & other base metals... but I find that having to deal with the time of rinsings & silver chloride left over, I rather not use nitric.
> 
> Take care!
> 
> Phil


----------



## philddreamer

You too have a good one! 8) 

Phil


----------



## radhindanoes

Great tutorial! It will definitely help me a lot!

I saw that at part 1 of the video, you inspect the broken CPU's because there was still left over gold on it. This will go on the next batch, like you said. Would it work if I grind the CPU's to a powder-like substance at the beginning and then do the AR process? I would think that there would be no next batch if it was grounded into a powder with a ball mill or something. However, please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## glondor

Hey Phil, Cnbarr, Tell us more about the rusty looking goo. How did you work thru it? did you figure out what it is? I have a 3 pound batch that has gone "goo". I always supposed the goo was dirty cement copper and a small addition of nitric would clear it up, in this case however it does not. Please do tell if you have a remedy! Cheers Mike


----------



## philddreamer

Rad, I'm sure you now understand better our comments to your post:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=12780#p127602

There're big differences in the types, yields & methods of processing the ceramic cpu's. 8) 

Take care!
Phil

P.S. Glondor, I'll make some comments on the matter at
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=12631#p125850
in order to keep the information in one post & making easier to find; also, that way not clogging Samuel's post on processing CPU's.


----------



## cnbarr

glondor said:


> Hey Phil, Cnbarr, Tell us more about the rusty looking goo. How did you work thru it? did you figure out what it is? I have a 3 pound batch that has gone "goo". I always supposed the goo was dirty cement copper and a small addition of nitric would clear it up, in this case however it does not. Please do tell if you have a remedy! Cheers Mike



Hi glondor how is your day,

My rusty goo (I wonder if "goo" is in a scientific dictionary?) came from 2# of ceramic AMD athelon/duron cpu's, so I am pretty sure (from what I researched) it was iron from the pins. After the nitric in my AR was used up, a stannous test showed slight positive for gold, even though the vast majority was still undissolved. I carefully empty the solution and the rusty goo (paying close attention not to pour off any gold pins) into a fresh beaker and and rinsed the cpu's with minimal water. I then added a fresh 100ml of HCl to the new beaker with the goo, heated, then small additions of nitric till it all dissolved. With the cpu's I added fresh AR to finish them up.

I then diluted the goo solution by 35% with water and added a touch of sulfuric acid to drop out any lead, then filtered. When I precipitated the beaker with the rusty mass, I do not think I got more than a 1/20g of gold powder, which tells me most if any values that may have dissolved were cemented back out. From cpu's with the fresh AR I precipitated about 1.8g, so based on my calculated expected yield, I was only off by -2/10g.

I do not know if this was the best procedure, but it worked in my situation. These type of cpu's will definitely get a hot HCl or nitric bath for pretreatment from now on. 
I hope this helps,
Chris


----------



## glondor

Thanks Chris. I will do some more work with these today. I do not know what type of ceramics these were as they were ground to 1/4" minus as received. 

The learning curve on escrap is steep for sure when everything is requiring the development of a new method and understanding. Having access to this kind of information on this forum is truly fantastic. It is a shame so many are trying to run roughshod through it here recently. Where else can you find this kind of info....( sorry, minor rant )

I will try your method as I have already set the solution to filter out the goo. Goo is a good scientific term as a descriptor as it conjures the same image to most in the mind. :lol:


----------



## samuel-a

It's easy enough to create stubborn iron rust, maybe not enough solution used?

Never had any difficulties with ceramic AMD's...


----------



## glondor

Thanks Sam. That may be the issue. I guestimated 10 - 15 % by weight as metal and added solution accordingly. I increased the amount when I was not getting the desired results. I thought I added an excess but perhaps I was wrong. I did not want to over do the nitric as it causes trouble later. I have isolated the goo and will do small additions of A\R and see if it reacts.


----------



## philddreamer

You know, I came to the conclusion a couple of days ago that, that is most likely what happened with my black chips leaving a brown sediment. I added plenty of HCl & nitric & it changed to a greenish color & no brown sediment, but the test shows Pd. Only .6g of gold I've recovered so far. 
I'm placing all the solution in a bucket for cementing.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

glondor said:


> Thanks Sam. That may be the issue. I guestimated 10 - 15 % by weight as metal and added solution accordingly. I increased the amount when I was not getting the desired results. I thought I added an excess but perhaps I was wrong. I did not want to over do the nitric as it causes trouble later. I have isolated the goo and will do small additions of A\R and see if it reacts.



If you have enough solution make 3 batches if you want to. Use your AR on one test, just add HCL in your 2nd test, and in your 3rd test try peroxide.


----------



## glondor

Hey Barren, Missed your post last night. I added A/R to the solution and heated. It did clear up some but not all. It does seem an extreme excess of A/R. I will see what is the result a bit later today when I get to the lab. I hope it worked... Why Peroxide?


----------



## Barren Realms 007

glondor said:


> Hey Barren, Missed your post last night. I added A/R to the solution and heated. It did clear up some but not all. It does seem an extreme excess of A/R. I will see what is the result a bit later today when I get to the lab. I hope it worked... Why Peroxide?



I used small aounts of peroxide in a similar situation and it worked to clear up the solution.


----------



## samuel-a

So... Me and Phil have been exchanging some of our findings in regards to the ceramics cpu's process.

Before, i was quite convinced that there is no gold within the ceramic substrate.... :shock: I guess... just because i can't see it, doesn't mean it ain't there !

As a habit, I'm saving all of the bits and pieces of the processed ceramics and accumulated many pounds of them. So i took some of it, an re-processed it with hot dilute A/R, the results were quite disappointing (but somewhat expected), only very faint gold stain with SnCl2.
Later, I dried this same batch and broke every piece into few smaller ones and again into hot dilute A/R.... boy was i surprised to see the color of the solution and SnCl2 test...


Though, i still think powdering the ceramics will be counteractive, i reckon the suggestion to brake the ceramics into very small pieces is spot on and will give much better results in terms of yields.
A good crushing size will probably be somewhere under 0.2 inches...

So... crush 'em...


----------



## Geo

great info. i have a few pounds myself i will need to go back over. thanks.


----------



## rotorpowa

Hi all, I have 5 pentium pro's and I have read to expect 2grams each is this true?


----------



## jimdoc

No

Jim


----------



## rotorpowa

LOL, Thanks Jim. Im still left wondering what would be my expected yeilds just so that I know if im doing ok. I also have read a few times to remove the gold lids, but have not read why and im guessing that I would process seperate. Is this due to the amount of base metal or simply to allow the acid to reach the inside of the cpu?


----------



## jimdoc

I think the yield will be more like 0.33 grams per Pentium Pro, if you search their yield on the forum you will find more info. You want to process metal lids separate. I think the Pentium Pro lids are more like a ceramic and break easily, I have not processed too many of them. Hopefully others that have more experience may add some better advice for them.

Jim


----------



## rotorpowa

Cheers Jim


----------



## cnbarr

Hey rotorpowa Hows it going,

I recently processed 6 pentium pro's as part of a test batch of various types of ceramic cpu's, to see what I could yield for buying purposes. Jim is pretty close to spot on at 0.33g per PP, I recovered 1.8g after a second refine with my 6 PP. I know those numbers can be increased a bit as I did not completely dissolve all the gold under the silicon chip, I think 0.33g each is a good starting base to go with.

I hope this helps,
Chris

Edit: there is a thread on PP yields I referenced before I processed mine But I can't seem to find now.

Found it http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=62#p1459


----------



## jack_burton

I second what cnbarr said here, my results are also very similar.






Code:


EDIT: Mispelling


----------



## glondor

1.9 g from 5. xrf showed silver still on processed chips around heat spreader.


----------



## glondor

Very Interesting......Good work.


----------



## philddreamer

Hi Rotor!

Did you just brake the PP's or did you crush them down a bit? From your results, I would say you just broke them. Samuel & I have been sharing some information on some tests we've done. 
Check this post: 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12717#p126914

By the way, I processed 2 PP's & had a yield of .5g a piece, but I crushed them to about 1/4".

Phil


----------



## philddreamer

Thank you Samuel!
Like Sam said, we've been exchanging some information on our findings on ceramic cpu's, mainly the P-Pro's, but i believe that it applies to some of the older ceramic cpu's, too.

"Hi Sam!

I want to share my recent experience with Pentium Pro's. I bought 12 of them & tried 2 different batches of 6.
The first 6, I just broke into a few pieces & proceeded with AR. Decanted & precipitated & had a yield of 1.8g.

The second batch & broke into more smaller pieces, then proceded with AR like the first batch; decanted. 
I added more HCl to the ceramics, brought to a lite boil for a few minutes; decanted & added to solution to the solution that I had set aside. I then proceded to precipitate & recovered 2.4g. That's an extra .6 of a gram.
When I broke these P-P's, I noticed with my loupe some gold strands connecting the different layers of ceramics, so maybe, by crushing more, the acid can reach them.

So, I think I'll be crushing a bit more the 10 or 15 # of ceramics that I've collected from previous batches & have the yellow color to them, maybe I'll be able to recover more gold off of them.

My very first test with 2 P-Pro's last year, the yield was 1 gram, I crushed them, though; so when I had less than that yield on following batches that I didn't crush, the yield was much lower.

Shalom, Brother!
Phil"

"Hi Phil

This is interesting.
I can't say that i saw any wires within the ceramic of a PP, maybe i have missed it.

I'm saving all of my processed ceramics to be leached again anyway just in case (such as this), i'll take your advice and brake them further and see if i can poll extra juice out."

"Hi Samuel!

I had to try breaking the ceramics down a bit more because I remember last year, when I came across my first PP's, I took 2 & crushed them down pretty good. The yield was 1 gram right on. Since at that time I had another 60, & after reading Lazersteve's post on processing ceramics & that he didn't brake them, I just broke them up a bit, (like you did in the video), but the yield was much lower. 
This time, having 12 PP's, I opted with the 2 test of 6 each, having the result mentioned before.
I'm going to crush the ceramics, (I've saved them all), & I'll try another leach.
I also noticed that there is a golden film on the spots were the pins were at, as well as the big plated ceramic. I thought, maybe some of the gold is cementing there? That's why I ran the ceramics thru some HCl a second time. Next time, I'll add a few drops of nitric, too.

I know you're more scientific & knowledgeable than me in these areas, so I'm
sharing my Q's & findings, so we can figure out WHY a higher yield with the first 2 PP's but less with the others. (Especially when wiki reports that the yield of a PP is 1.1g! )
Again, I think it could be the fact of having to crush the ceramics more, & running thru a second or even 3rd time, (if stannous test is still positive).

Thank you & take care!
Phil"

"Hi Phil

It is indeed odd, though i always keep in mind that not all cpu's created evenly, even if they are the same type.

In the next few days, i'll grab a lb or two of processed lightly broken cpu's (assortment), smash 'em & leach again with hot dilute AR and test, i would imagine i will get some sort of positive test, though probably faint.
Time will tell...

Have you kept some yields avarage per unit for you PP's ?"

"Hi Sam!

The 2 that I crushed some months ago, they yield 1g, thus .5g each.
The 60 or so that I did a few weeks later, (I didn't crush them), the yield was about .3g.

Of the 12 I did a few days ago, the first 6 that I only broke in a few pieces, the total yield was 1.8g, thus (.3g each).
The second batch of 6, I crushed a bit more, the yield was 2.4, or .4g each.

I believe that if we crushed them good, we can then expect the .5g or, maybe even a bit more.

As soon as I get a chance I'll dry my left over ceramic, crush them, then AR.

There is also the posibility that the older PP's might have a bit more gold the the newer Revised ones. Who knows..."

"Sam, I just went outside & checked my left overs of the PP's, the 60 that I broke and ran thru AR some months ago, & LO & BEHOLD!!!

I found gold leafs & sections of gold solder... I'm afraid one must crush the ceramics more & run a second leach to assure the most gold recovery.
Many still have the silicon waffers on & probably with gold still underneath, that's why my yield back then was so low."

So that's why Samuel just posted;
"So... Me and Phil have been exchanging some of our findings in regards to the ceramics cpu's process.

Before, i was quite convinced that there is no gold within the ceramic substrate.... I guess... just because i can't see it, doesn't mean it ain't there !

As a habit, I'm saving all of the bits and pieces of the processed ceramics and accumulated many pounds of them. So i took some of it, an re-processed it with hot dilute A/R, the results were quite disappointing (but somewhat expected), only very faint gold stain with SnCl2.
Later, I dried this same batch and broke every piece into few smaller ones and again into hot dilute A/R.... boy was i surprised to see the color of the solution and SnCl2 test...


Though, i still think powdering the ceramics will be counteractive, i reckon the suggestion to brake the ceramics into very small pieces is spot on and will give much better results in terms of yields.
A good crushing size will probably be somewhere under 0.2 inches...

So... crush 'em..."

Thanks again, Samuel! 8) 

Phil


----------



## lahoop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ_R8Gr26kk&feature=player_embedded
I understood these:
1-Putting CPUs in a beaker.
2-Cover them with water.
3-Add Hcl carefully untill the reaction begins
4- Putting the solution on low heat (I didn't know the heating period )
5-Add NaNo3
6-Putting ice cubes in anther beaker and infuse the solution into it 
7-Add sulfuric acid to get rid of lead 
8-Adding water tap to completely getting silver out of the solution
9-Filtering 
OR
the same steps except number 2 
It will be Nitric Acid instead of water
I appreciate your help Sam thank you to all members


----------



## samuel-a

2 - cover with silghtly diluted HCl solution (about 1 part of water to 5 parts acid).
4 - for as long as it takes for all metals to dissolve.


Other then that, seems like you are good to go.
I would also offer you to try this process on a small scale first, one or two cpu's. To get a better 'feel' of the process and involved reactions.
Take it slow... and take observation notes.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> Hi Rotor!
> 
> Did you just brake the PP's or did you crush them down a bit? From your results, I would say you just broke them. Samuel & I have been sharing some information on some tests we've done.
> Check this post:
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12717#p126914
> 
> By the way, I processed 2 PP's & had a yield of .5g a piece, but I crushed them to about 1/4".
> 
> Phil





Phil,

You should crush them to a fine powder, without the copper/tungsten heat spreader.


----------



## lazersteve

In step four it is advisable to add a very small amount of sodium nitrate (eg: 1 tablespoon), let this addition react until no more action is seen in the solution (fizzing and small bubbles). Once the small spoonful of niter has reacted add another if the scrap still has visible metal on the cpu housings.

If the action ceases and you still see undissolved metallic solids then you may need more HCl.

Check out this post for a more detail step-by-step of this process:


Lazersteve's Modified Poor Man's AR for CPUs

Steve


----------



## lazersteve

This topic has re-kindled my interest in the subject of 'To Crush or Not to Crush!'

I've rounded up 10 PP that are whole and have been processed once before.

I would like to send two out to four other members to process for comparison of results. I'll process the other two. 

I'll crush the cpus to approximately 1/4" sized pieces before they are sent out. 

Each lot of two cpus will be crushed separately from the others. 

We can compare numbers on the crushed material after everything is finished.

If any one is interested let me know and I'll put you on the list of participants.

You can keep what you get out of the two cpus, but you'll have to abide by the rules.


 No further crushing of the sample is allowed.
 You must process the test cpu sample by itself in a clean beaker and cannot mix with other scrap.
 You must weigh the resulting BB on digital scales accurate to 0.01 g and post a photo here.
 You must post photos of your methods and results to the forum on this thread.
 You will have five working days from the time the cpus arrive to complete the process.
 You can process by any means you choose, as long as you do not alter the size of the crushed material.
 I'll pay all shipping cost to get the cpus to you.

Any takers?


I'll post photos of the ten previously processed PP cpus in a few hours after I get them photographed.

Steve


----------



## glondor

Count me in if you like Steve. I will also rerun 5 pp's that yielded 1.9 g but showed PM's still present on an XRF scan. I can follow the rules.


----------



## rotorpowa

Hey all, Thanks for the input it has been very helpfull. Wow, Steve I feel privileged to have you so interested in one of my post's. As a new member and a noob Im very greatfull for the input from everyone, and please dont anyone else feel discredited by my comment to Steve. I have started on my PP and will update when I have my results. I would take you up on the offer Steve but A. I live in Australia and B. I feel someone with more experience should do it. I had started before posting this and yes I only broke them up into 4-5 bits each and mine also had some gold left under the silicone. I can't find the list I found to give me the idea that I could get 2grams, It had expected yeilds from 15 or so cpu's and referred to the PP as the holly grail. Maybe I missread and it was a piticular PP, will try and find it again.


----------



## cnbarr

I have been running a lot of various ceramic cpu's for yield numbers per pound recently, I would be honored to be included in this test project! 

Thanks, 
Chris


----------



## philddreamer

Steve, is there the posibility that the first PP's models had more gold & as the technology advanced, less gold was needed to make them?

Thanks!
Phil


----------



## lazersteve

philddreamer said:


> Steve, is there the posibility that the first PP's models had more gold & as the technology advanced, less gold was needed to make them?
> 
> Thanks!
> Phil



I've given the idea some thought today and here's what I've come up with so far:


 differences in scales (calibration, battery level, accuracy, level surface, etc.)
 differences in cpu runs (ie: date or country of manufacture )
 differences in resulting gold purity (contaminated verse pure gold produced)
 surface elemental gold on the cpu that is not fully removed (pin holes, under cores, caught in braze on top lid perimeter)
 gold that has deposited into the tungsten top plate lattice after the copper dissolves out. (Think copper cementation on the top lid while in AR)
 surface gold solution on the cpu that has adhered to the ceramic or other crevices of the cpu housing.

I'm sure you guys can come up with some more possible losses/errors.

Steve


----------



## rotorpowa

Ok I think this was the site I got my info from. As I said before I might have missread or not remembered correctly and I did. Here is a link to the site lots of you should find interesting  http://www.ozcopper.com/computer-cpu-gold-yields/

Oh and please excuse my spelling not one of my strong points


----------



## cnbarr

Samuel please take no offense, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, just thought it would be good to keep pertinent information all in one place. Since we are on the subject of processing ceramic cpu's, I thought I would post some yields from recent test batches of various sorted ceramic cpu's. All were processed in the same manner as Samuel's tutorial, except I used nitric instead of sodium nitrate, along with a second refining for purity. I DID NOT extract 100% of the values, there was still some plating left under the silicon chips. I feel this may prove a good starting point for some newbies, as to what they can expect to recover, but also knowing that these yields can be increased with experience.


----------



## lazersteve

This is the new merged topic of ceramic cpu related posts and threads. 

I have merged together many old and new threads on the subject to make this thread.

Steve


----------



## cnbarr

Hi all,
This is a great call Steve, organizing it all into one place, it should definitely make it easier to search for.

Thank you.


----------



## philddreamer

CN, the yields you've posted are a good clue for anyone processing similar ceramic cpu's. 
Now, you probably just broke them into big pieces, that's why the yields could be a bit higher. I say that, because on the PP's you had the same 1.8g yield I had on my 6 that I just simply broke into 6 or 7 pieces. On my second batch of 6, I made sure I broke them smaller & that ALL the silicon waffers were off & crushed. That batch yielded 2.4g, thus .4g each, closer to my .5g of a previous test, which I happened to crush down to about 1/4". 

I went thru my left over ceramics from previous batches that I only broke & also left the silicon waffers on, & the pic's show the results of why the yields were lower than expected.

I also took the Corning were the ceramics have been sitting for over 6 mos. after the final rinse; there was a dry yellow sediment to which I added 1/4 cup of HCl & a few drops of nitric, then applied some heat & the stannous test was + for gold. 

So, after doing 3 tests with PP's & acquiring .3g each by just breaking; .4g each by breaking into smaller pieces plus crushing the silicon; & .5g each after breaking into very small pieces, I believe these older ceramic cpu's should be crushed & leached twice in order to achieve a higher yield.

I can't wait to learn of the results from tests of Steve's samples.

Phil


----------



## rotorpowa

wow Phill that is a good pic to show just how much is hidding behind those little suckers. Maybe one of the mods might even turn this into a sticky


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Phil,

I see a lot of those chips still have the copper tungsten heat spreader on them. You might think about soaking these in nitric to seperate the heat spreader and you might find that the solder used to attach the heat spreader to the ceramic chip could be gold based. They can also cement out some of your gold in solution and you might miss valvues there.


----------



## samuel-a

cnbarr

I have posted this just for someone like you to post what you did 8) All cool.
------

Steve, you done a great work collecting all the scatterd posts into one place, bet it took a while, Thanks.
Waiting for your results on the re-processing.


----------



## lazersteve

Phil,

The yellow is most likely tungsten oxide and may trap some values in the salt structure as well.

The actual yields on the PP may actually be closer to 0.75g as Sue once alluded. 

I still think the gold is all on the surface and not in invisible wires inside. Perhaps breaking them up exposes the gold on the feed thru connections for the legs to the internal wiring and some from the top lid (cemented and/or braze). The most likely canidate for trapping values would be the copper in the tungsten copper alloy top plate. You've processed pins and seen how copper cements out gold when the reaction is not driven to completion.

Perhaps you can get it all as Barren has stated, by dissolving down until the lid falls off.

The top lids can be removed with an oxy/acetylene torch in a few minutes at glowing red heat, but the gold turns dark/rainbowed as it alloys/absorbs into the top plate structure. The top plate weighs around one ounce when done this way. 

Steve


----------



## lazersteve

As a side note, I too re-ran the ten cpus that had been processed and got a positive gold reaction. 

I didn't break then up any either time.

I could probably get another yield from repeating the process again without breaking.

I'm still working on some pictures.

Steve


----------



## philddreamer

"The actual yields on the PP may actually be closer to 0.75g as Sue once alluded."

WOW! I like to hear that, since I have broken ceramics from about 80 PP's that the yield was around .3g a piece; that could mean a few more grams!

I also believe that the top plate's solder holds some gold. I only heated with mapp to try to get the tops off, but no success. I should have tried with oxi/acte. We live and never finish learning. 
I'm just glad we started "kicking" this around! 8) 

Thank you gentlemen!

Phil


----------



## lazersteve

Giving the subject more thought, perhaps breaking the cpus up simply allows the acid to reach areas on the surface of the cpu that would normally be trapped or protected by the cpus piling on top of one another.

By breaking up the cpus you increase the exposed surface area to the acid as the irregular broken pieces do not stack perfectly on each other like larger whole cpus and pieces do.

Steve


----------



## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> "The actual yields on the PP may actually be closer to 0.75g as Sue once alluded."
> 
> WOW! I like to hear that, since I have broken ceramics from about 80 PP's that the yield was around .3g a piece; that could mean a few more grams!
> 
> I also believe that the top plate's solder holds some gold. I only heated with mapp to try to get the tops off, but no success. I should have tried with oxi/acte. We live and never finish learning.
> I'm just glad we started "kicking" this around! 8)
> 
> Thank you gentlemen!
> 
> Phil



Phil,

Mapp gas will get the chip hot enough to reove the top plate, you might have to break the chip in two for it to work.


----------



## philddreamer

Hi Barren!
I tried the mapp & got them hot and some shattered in 2 or 3 pieces, but the top plate never came loose. I even used some pliers to try & "help" them come off, but nothing. The solder never liquified. Next time I'll use the oxi/acte.

"... perhaps breaking the cpus up simply allows the acid to reach areas on the surface of the cpu that would normally be trapped or protected by the cpus piling on top of one another."

Steve, my same thoughts. A couple of days ago, when I inspected the left over ceramics I noticed the areas where the acid never did much digesting, because the pieces had laid over each other, preventing the AR to attack the surface. The big pieces were also hard to stir around.

"By breaking up the cpus you increase the exposed surface area to the acid as the irregular broken pieces do not stack perfectly on each other like larger whole cpus and pieces do.
Steve"

I agree!

Thank you gentlemen!

Phil


----------



## maynman1751

lazersteve said:


> Phil,
> 
> The top lids can be removed with an oxy/acetylene torch in a few minutes at glowing red heat, but the gold turns dark/rainbowed as it alloys/absorbs into the top plate structure. The top plate weighs around one ounce when done this way.
> 
> Steve




Steve: This in no way 'damages' the gold or makes it more difficult to recover??????


----------



## cnbarr

Now with this thread, I wish I would not have dumped my left over ceramics all into one bucket. Something told me I should have kept them separate for testing purposes such as this current discussion. 

I guess I can still crush them and post some results.

Thank you everyone, 8) 
Chris


----------



## lazersteve

If your gold is already being trapped in the tungsten/copper alloy of the lid, you already have a problem to solve to get the gold.

Removing the lid serves several purposes in my eyes:


Exposes the braze to the the acid.
Allows the top lid to be processed separately to determine if the yields are affected primarily by the lid removal.
Removes the bulk of the tungsten from the remainder of the cpu to determine where the 'extra' gold really is coming from.
Typically breaks up the cpu package a little to increase surface area and acid exposure.

All in all no gold is lost if you do your due diligence and process until no more values are achieved. 

The real purpose of this exercise is to determine where the gold in the cpu is really located and whether you must partially or completely pulverize the cpus housing to get all of the gold out in the minimum number of extraction cycles.

I removed a lid this morning to show how they look removed:







Unfortunately this one broke when heated. It's a lot of work so I would not jump in and do a bunch of these until we determine where the gold really lives in these things.
Steve


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Steve,

If the solder used is a gold based solder would it not be a good idea to run these in nitric before the test is done to remove as much of the solder from the CPU as possible?


----------



## lazersteve

The solder melts silver colored, but at a fairly high temperature so it may contain some gold.

Nitric is a good idea as a preliminary treatment of the lid as the nitric will remove the copper from the tungsten also.

Steve


----------



## philddreamer

I took the 7 & a half pounds of PP's in the pic above, broke them down some more, (not as small as would have liked to), & proceeded to run thru AR one more time. I had to do it in 2 batches, since the coffee pot could not handle all 7 & a half pounds. It was still difficult to stir, but I managed.

So, to make it short, I recovered another 3.6 grams! 8) 

I still have about 10 more pounds...

Phil


----------



## Smack

Have you ever looked at some of the ceramic chips on edge and under magnification like 60x magnification? I was told a while back by a guy who used to do them that you have to mill them to powder to get all the gold out of them. As I have looked at them I can see the layers (like 3) and gold specs that look like it's right in the ceramic compound.


----------



## maynman1751

philddreamer said:


> So, to make it short, I recovered another 3.6 grams!
> 
> 
> 
> Phil


 Too cool! Congrats! Gotta love it! 8)


----------



## lazersteve

Phil,

From the photo you posted all of the gold appears to be on the surface of the left overs in areas I previously mentioned, so proper exposure to the acid solution may be the key, not crushing. I can see how crushing can help expose the area under the dies/cores to acid, but I'm still not convinced it is necessary to pulverize them to a fine dust to get all of the gold.

Perhaps what needs to be done is a comparison test of two new cpus, run side by side, one crushed, one with uncruhed but digested down until the core falls out and the tunsten/copper top is completely digested so as no copper/gold cemntation is taking place inside the tungsten matrix. 

I would be will to bet if you simply run the leftovers as is with again no additonal crushing you will see more gold.


Steve


----------



## cnbarr

lazersteve said:


> Perhaps what needs to be done is a comparison test of two new cpus, run side by side, one crushed, one with uncruhed but digested down until the core falls out and the tunsten/copper top is completely digested so as no copper/gold cemntation is taking place inside the tungsten matrix.
> 
> I would be will to bet if you simply run the leftovers as is with again no additonal crushing you will see more gold.
> 
> Steve



LOL,  Steve,
I am one step ahead of you, I just started a test batch this morning. One 2lb batch of standard ceramic Pentiums(no gold lids) broken into 3-5pcs as normal, and one 2lb batch crushed to roughly 1/4" minus. Both bathed in nitric and then ran in AR side by side, I should have results by tomorrow afternoon.

I am also re-running 9lbs of Pentium and Amd K-5 (double sided gold caps processed w/out the lids, I ran those in the cell), which I recovered 16.5g from, to find out how much I may have missed.

I also had no means of crushing, and this thread inspired a DIY project, I built a power mortar and pestle from an old propane tank with the top cut off and my hilti hammer drill with a section of 3/4" black pipe welded to an old 5/8" masonary bit. In 5 minutes crushed 2lbs quite effectively.

Have a fantastic weekend everyone,
Chris

Oh I can post pics of the hammer drill mortar and pestle and the crushed material if anyone wants to see?

Edit: I just realized we were talking about PP's and not ceramics in general.


----------



## philddreamer

Steve, I agree that the first run should have been thru nitric, in order to get rid of the copper & tungsten lid. It's basic, get rid of the base metals first...
By not doing that, I created the need of extra leaching. 

I don't want to pulverize, just crush to smaller pieces. 
I just crushed my left overs down so the pieces would be exposed more to the acid like you suggested earlier, & it worked; I just have a problem when I try stiring the pieces in the coffee pot, in order to keep them exposed to fresh acid. 

I'm just glad I didn't throw the ceramics away & was able to recover that much gold from them.

Thanks!

Phil


----------



## lazersteve

Phil, 

I'm not against breaking up the cpus as far as is needed to get the gold out in a minimal number of passes.

As you know the more you crush the cpus, the harder your filtration cycle becomes. The really fine ceramic particles from excessive crushing is a real pain to filter as you well know, additionally this fine ceramic material can trap gold solution if not throughly rinsed, making more waste solution in the end.

I think with a properly thought out digestion cycle and reaction setup, one could conceiveably recovery a large percentage (>95%) of the total gold content in a single pass with minimal crushing, perhaps even with whole cpus.

I still feel the tungsten copper alloy is the true culprit for trapping the gold. Maybe a test on cpu types with the gold plated top verse those without built in heat spreaders on top as test batches of crushed and uncrushed for ceramic cpus with and without tungsten/copper tops.


Steve


----------



## philddreamer

> Phil,
> I'm not against breaking up the cpus as far as is needed to get the gold out in a minimal number of passes.
> 
> As you know the more you crush the cpus, the harder your filtration cycle becomes. The really fine ceramic particles from excessive crushing is a real pain to filter as you well know, additionally this fine ceramic material can trap gold solution if not throughly rinsed, making more waste solution in the end.
> 
> I think with a properly thought out digestion cycle and reaction setup, one could conceiveably recovery a large percentage (>95%) of the total gold content in a single pass with minimal crushing, perhaps even with whole cpus.
> 
> I still feel the tungsten copper alloy is the true culprit for trapping the gold. Maybe a test on cpu types with the gold plated top verse those without built in heat spreaders on top as test batches of crushed and uncrushed for ceramic cpus with and without tungsten/copper tops.
> Steve



Steve, I agree with you 100%!
Thanks again!

Phil


----------



## vegaswinner

Every time i read about ceramics I read about taking the lids off with heat, although I have had success once the majority of the time I have failed. The other day I picked up a nice load of cpu's and needed a quick way to remove lids so I tried a more focused torch, other than roasting the cpu i failed. This was not good seen as I had quite a few to get through. So I tried a more brutal approach using a punch and hammer. This worked surprisingly well, in some cases not only separating the lid but breaking the cpu into enough pieces for processing it also put a nice hole through the central core potentially exposing gold that would otherwise be sandwiched between the layers. I made a video for anyone interested, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtt0NErBd-w


----------



## philddreamer

Nice video, Vegas!

It works good for you, & that's the bottom line. 8) 
We all have a preferred method & we've made a habit of using the same one over & over, for one reason or another. As long as its safe & you achive your goal! Just make sure you brake the silicon chip & expose any gold that is behind it.

I like to heat my ceramic cpu's with a propane torch & burn any junk that's on them, (prior to leaching), & the soldered chips come off at the same time. 

Thanks & take care!

Phil


----------



## philddreamer

While searching for some information on IC's & other chips, I went to the site:
http://www.cpu-galaxy.at/Index.htm 
that GSP & Kuma have made mention on previous posts. I love that site!

There, I found the section on Pentium Pro's... very interesting,

http://www.cpu-galaxy.at/CPU/Intel%20CPU/Pentium%20Pro/Intel%20Pentium%20Pro%20section.htm

Phil


----------



## cnbarr

cnbarr said:


> I just started a test batch this morning. One 2lb batch of standard ceramic Pentiums(no gold lids) broken into 3-5pcs as normal, and one 2lb batch crushed to roughly 1/4" minus. Both bathed in nitric and then ran in AR side by side, I should have results by tomorrow afternoon.



I have the results of these two test batches, and honestly I was quite shocked by the results. I let the broken batch run 3hrs longer then the crushed batch just to ensure completion. The resulting button from the broken was 2g total and the button from the crushed batch was 2g total, so I combined them into one button. 

Not only was I expecting yield higher then 1g/lb, I was also expecting a difference in yield between the two. I first thought that something had gone array, but where the results were identical I can't deny the numbers. Any thoughts, ideas, criticism, or experience's with ceramic Pentium 1 are more then welcomed.

Oh and congratulations to the winners of the contest.


----------



## Claudie

Thriftybits is currently paying $35.00 a pound for these CPUs. Ebay is getting $66.00+ per pound for them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1lb-Scrap-Ceramic-Processors-for-gold-recovery-recycling-Pentium-/110822796026?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cd8daafa

Hmm.... :|

EDIT: http://www.thriftybits.com/pricelist.html 
The thrifybits price was from December.


----------



## cnbarr

Thanks for the info claudie, I thought about ebay for minute, but I think I will hang on to what I have left and run some more tests.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

cnbarr said:


> cnbarr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just started a test batch this morning. One 2lb batch of standard ceramic Pentiums(no gold lids) broken into 3-5pcs as normal, and one 2lb batch crushed to roughly 1/4" minus. Both bathed in nitric and then ran in AR side by side, I should have results by tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have the results of these two test batches, and honestly I was quite shocked by the results. I let the broken batch run 3hrs longer then the crushed batch just to ensure completion. The resulting button from the broken was 2g total and the button from the crushed batch was 2g total, so I combined them into one button.
> 
> Not only was I expecting yield higher then 1g/lb, I was also expecting a difference in yield between the two. I first thought that something had gone array, but where the results were identical I can't deny the numbers. Any thoughts, ideas, criticism, or experience's with ceramic Pentium 1 are more then welcomed.
> 
> Oh and congratulations to the winners of the contest.
Click to expand...


At the current price of gold at $1725.40 you made $221.92 if you can sell your gold at spot price, if you sell it at 98% you will receive 217.49. We currently offer $52.50/lb for these and you would have reveived $210.00, no fuss no muss and no chemicals. But I like holding my gold too.... 8)


----------



## Oz

Barren Realms 007 said:


> We currently offer $52.50/lb for these


Per pound for ceramic Pentiums without the gold heat sink?


----------



## cnbarr

Barren Realms 007 said:


> At the current price of gold at $1725.40 you made $221.92 if you can sell your gold at spot price, if you sell it at 98% you will receive 217.49. We currently offer $52.50/lb for these and you would have reveived $210.00, no fuss no muss and no chemicals. But I like holding my gold too.... 8)



I sure do like holding my gold, I've saved up about 2oz in the past couple of weeks and when my mold gets here I'll try my hand at a pour.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Oz said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We currently offer $52.50/lb for these
> 
> 
> 
> Per pound for ceramic Pentiums without the gold heat sink?
Click to expand...


Yes sir.


----------



## lazersteve

Cnbarr,

Your results support my theory that the gold is being trapped in the tungsten copper alloy top plate. Since normal pentium ceramic cpus do not have this integrated top plate heat spreader, the results are identical for crushed and uncrushed. Other ceramic cpus without integrated heat spreaders should not require crushing either: 286-486 ceramic types, motorolas, i960, AMD x86s, AMD K series, AMD athlon/duron ceramic series cpu, etc. 

Your test leads me to believe the only cpus that require crushing (to approximately 1/4" sized pieces) are the ones with an integrated heat spreader on top (Cyrix x86, Pentium Pro, HP, etc.). A rule of thumb is that if it has a gold plated top, then it needs to be either crushed or processed in diluted nitric acid to remove the base metals (specifically the copper portion of the top plate) completely before processing for gold.

Nice work.

Steve


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Steve,

Here is a positive test for gold inside the ceramics of some 186 chips that I crushed to a powder and ran in AR, these chips had already been processed for any exterior PM's before they were crushed and the test done of the crushed material. 

I will agree 100% with you about the heat spreader cementing out your gold, it will definetly do tat

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=6026&start=140


----------



## cnbarr

lazersteve said:


> Cnbarr,
> 
> Your results support my theory that the gold is being trapped in the tungsten copper alloy top plate. Since normal pentium ceramic cpus do not have this integrated top plate heat spreader, the results are identical for crushed and uncrushed. Other ceramic cpus without integrated heat spreaders should not require crushing either: 286-486 ceramic types, motorolas, i960, AMD x86s, AMD K series, AMD athlon/duron ceramic series cpu, etc.
> 
> Your test leads me to believe the only cpus that require crushing (to approximately 1/4" sized pieces) are the ones with an integrated heat spreader on top (Cyrix x86, Pentium Pro, HP, etc.). A rule of thumb is that if it has a gold plated top, then it needs to be either crushed or processed in diluted nitric acid to remove the base metals (specifically the copper portion of the top plate) completely before processing for gold.
> 
> Nice work.
> 
> Steve



Thanks Steve,
I feel your theory to be correct as well, I will have to run a similar test with ones that have the integrated heat spreader and that should prove it. 

As for the the other cpu's the only benefit I saw in my test between crushed and uncrushed, was the crushed fully processed in between 3-5hrs faster.


----------



## lazersteve

Why did the uncrushed cpus require more time in your opinion?

Steve


----------



## cnbarr

Hey Steve,
I think the uncrushed ones took longer due to slow acid penetration under the silicon chip, with the crushed ones the silicon chip had been virtually shattered allowing for a greater surface area for acid penetration thus allowing quicker dissolution of the gold underneath the chip. This is just my observation of the reaction, but I feel it is an accurate assessment.


----------



## butcher

I also think when crushed finer the fine gold wires inside the chip are exposed easier to the acids, gold salts are water soluble so once gold is dissolved settling can get most of the liquid water and HCl wash can get the rest of dissolved gold from the cumbersome ceramic powders.

I have not done CPU's for quite some time now, but when I did process them, I would just break to pieces and get as much gold as I could, then crush and reprocess the powder, I did not get much gold the second run, but I did get some.

That is a very interesting experiment.


----------



## samuel-a

cnbarr

I'm afraid your results are somewhat low for some reason.
It could be either your process, or, the fact that there's really only 4 grams in your 64 pieces.

In my videos about ceramic processors, i ran these exact cpu's, the video show a bit more then one lb (18 pieces), all in all i ran several kilos of them.
My avarage yield is 0.07g per one cpu's on the first run, that i only broke to 4-6 parts. 
I still don't have exact numbers for the second crushing and leaching at the moment, but already mentioned that the second run was suprising.


p.s.
I see no reason to include gold plated metalic lids/heat spreader into the main lot, i do them separately.


----------



## lazersteve

Sam,

The cpus cnbarr ran had no gold top or bottom. I think you are talking about the bottom lids and not the top plate being removed since the Pentium model cpu he processed has no top plate. Additionally, the cpus (ceramic Pentium I) he ran typically do not have gold plated bottom lids in most case. Perhaps I misunderstood what type of cpus he processed.

This brings up a few extra points worth mentioning when it comes to cpu terminology in general.


 The *top* of the cpu is considered to be the side without the legs on it. This sounds obvious but is important as newer cpus are built using FC, or flip chip technology where the cpu die is actually flipped upside down. The point is that regardless of which way the cpu die is oriented to the overall cpu package with ceramic cpus, the top side has no contacts or legs that connect to directly to the cpu socket. The top of some ceramic cpus may have contact points that are external interconnects for flip chip dies, cache, decoupling capacitors, and voltage regulation surface mounted components. 

The *top plate* is an integrated heat spreader that is composed of a copper tungsten alloy in some ceramic cpu models (mentioned in post above) that is typically plated with gold externally. This heat plate is brazed to the top of the cpu via the top braze. 

The *bottom* of the cpu is considered the side of the cpu with the electrical contacts on it. These contacts may be legs or lands (aka pads) and are typically gold plated kovar or other base metal alloy. 

 The *top braze* is a term for the weld that holds the top plate to the top of the ceramic housing. The jury is still out as to what the actual composition of this braze is and whether it contains any precious metals or not.

 The *package* of the cpu describes the physical arrangement of the cpu housing and it's external and internal connecting points. It also defines the number of external connection points (pads/legs) and the orientation of the die inside the cpu.

 The *housing* is the purple/gray ceramic piece that remains after the cpu is processed for values. It is composed of several layers of ceramic materials fused together with electrical traces connecting the legs/pads of the cpu to the die lands. These internal traces are most likely a Molybdenum paste that is applied to the separated layers of ceramic before the housing is fused into one piece.

 The *die* is the silicon wafer (aka chip) that is mounted inside the cpu housing. This wafer is mounted to the ceramic housing using a mixture of epoxy and gold alloy braze. If the wafer is not completely removed, broken, or chemically etched free of the housing the layer of gold alloy braze under it will not be recovered in the refining process. This is a primary area of lowered yields when processing this type of cpu. 

 The *lands* or pads are the points where the bonding wires that connect the cpu die to the cpu housing attach. The same term is used for the external connections on the cpu where no legs are present. In all cases lands are typically gold plated. 

The *bonding wires* are the short jumper wires that extend from the cpu die to the cpu housing die lands. They can be exposed by removing the bottom plate (aka lid) from the bottom of the cpu housing. The purpose of these wires is to conduct electricity from the legs or pads of the cpu to the appropriate contact point on the cpu die. These wires are typically made of one of two metals. The gold colored bonding wires are high purity gold. The silver colored wires are almost always high purity aluminum. There are two main theories as to whether or not these wires extend into the internal layers of the ceramic package housing: 
a) that the wires do not extend through the housing structure to the legs. For this to hold true there must be a secondary method of conducting the electricity to/from the legs and die. Goldsilverpro has stated that he believes this connection within the ceramic to be some form of Molybdenum trace.
b) that the bonding wires extend through the ceramic housing all the way to the legs. This is most likely not the case as no one (to my knowledge) has ever been able to produce a photograph at any magnification of the ceramic when broken or crushed that exposes these 'phantom' wires.

The *lid* of the cpu is typically a cover on bottom of the cpu. This lid is typically gold plated kovar, high iron base metal alloy, or a thin ceramic material. The lid is also soldered to the bottom of the cpu housing with a silver colored solder. This solder alloy is believed to contain some precious metals, most likely silver if any.

You can search the forum for more discussions on the construction of cpus and check out the documents on my website.

Steve


----------



## cnbarr

butcher said:


> I also think when crushed finer thefine gold wires inside the chip are exposed easier to the acids, gold salts are water soluble so once gold is dissolved settling can get most of the liquid water and HCl wash can get the rest of dissolved gold from the cumbersome ceramic powders.



Hey butcher, I am still in mental debate over there being fine wires in the ceramic body of the chip. I've broken and looked at several under a 600x microscope and haven't found any indication of fine wires, that's not to say there isn't any fine gold wires, I just haven't found any in the cpu body, yet.



samuel-a said:


> cnbarr
> 
> I'm afraid your results are somewhat low for some reason.
> It could be either your process, or, the fact that there's really only 4 grams in your 64 pieces.
> 
> In my videos about ceramic processors, i ran these exact cpu's, the video show a bit more then one lb (18 pieces), all in all i ran several kilos of them.
> My avarage yield is 0.07g per one cpu's on the first run, that i only broke to 4-6 parts.
> I still don't have exact numbers for the second crushing and leaching at the moment, but already mentioned that the second run was surprising.



Hey Sam, I felt like my yields were a little low as well, but my average per/cpu was not much different than yours. It worked out to be 0.0625g per/cpu, getting identical results from two concurrent batches makes feel like I did extract all values, but I will re-run them just for confirmation.



lazersteve said:


> Sam,
> The cpus cnbarr ran had no gold top or bottom. I think you are talking about the bottom lids and not the top plate being removed since the Pentium model cpu he processed has no top plate. Additionally, the cpus (ceramic Pentium I) he ran typically do not have gold plated bottom lids in most case. Perhaps I misunderstood what type of cpus he processed.
> 
> This brings up a few extra points worth mentioning when it comes to cpu terminology in general.



Hey steve, you are correct in the type of cpu I processed, I posted a picture of them in the contest I just ran, it is the last picture in the set http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=12921#p129261

Thank you for the terminology list, I feel at times there is much confusion in some of the differences in the terminology used.


----------



## lazersteve

The accuracy, battery life (if applicable), and/or calibration of either Sam's or Cnbarr's scales can be to blame for the slight variation in yields.

Steve


----------



## samuel-a

Hi Steve

This is great list, i really liked your explanation for each term, especially the phantom wires enigma, lol :mrgreen: 
I'm sure many will benefit from it.

As to the terminology, I'd like to think i'm quite versed with it, so i think there wasn't any confusion by me. I just mentioned as a side note, to process gold plated lids OR heat spreaders (that are metallic based obviously) at seperate reaction vessel as i sensed some confusion in previous posts, sorry if i offended you somehow.


Me and cnbarr, generaly speaking, processed the same type of cpu's, now, i know that no batch is ever same (different; sub-models, year, manufacturer etc'...), but just like cnbarr "felt" the yield is low, i do too. My guts (and experience) tells me he have more gold to extract, but i could be wrong of course. I only seek his best interest.

This is the type of processors that i have processed and my yield data relates to, i believe they are similar to cnbarr's batch.





lazersteve said:


> The accuracy, battery life (if applicable), and/or calibration of either Sam's or Cnbarr's scales can be to blame for the slight variation in yields.



I don't know what cnbarr is doing, i can only speak for my self...
I'm not using some fancy analytical laboratory scale, I have one that is one hundredth of a gram accurate (xxx.x1).
I'm calibrating my scacle every other day and always before doing 'analytical' work.
My scale is always allowed 30 minutes (at least) to adjust with ambient temp' before use and always located on a leveled plain.
I own a standart 100g weight, purchased at a reputable local laboratory supplies vendor.

Some will say it's an over kill, some will say it's not enough...
I took this picture for you steve:





p.s 1 - 


lazersteve said:


> The lid is also soldered to the bottom of the cpu housing with a silver colored solder. This solder alloy is believed to contain some precious metals, most likely silver if any.


I have confirmed that in many cases it is indeed silver based solder.

p.s 2 -


lazersteve said:


> The top braze is a term for the weld that holds the top plate to the top of the ceramic housing. The jury is still out as to what the actual composition of this braze is and whether it contains any precious metals or not.


I think in either cases this solder should be considered as gold bearing, even if plain tin/lead solder was used, it most likely dissolved some gold form the surrounding plating while applied.


----------



## lazersteve

Sam,

Of course, I am *not* offended by your comments. We are all working towards the same goal here, so I would be a fool to take your remarks as inflammatory in any way.

You are being very through in your scale calibration and accuracy, but it had to be mentioned as no two scales are exactly in 'sync' with one another. There are many other sources of errors in weighing yields as you well know, some of which I mentioned in the earlier posts of this thread. The same scale in perfect calibration can give errors based upon external anomalies (eq: gravity, magnetic fields, gold purity, slag/flux, etc.)

I'm very confident in stating that the braze that holds the top plate on is not normal solder (tin/lead) as it's melting point appears to be way above that of conventional solders.

Cnbarr's test, regardless of the actual yields, show the cpus he tested yields the same amount of gold crushed or not. I feel his results will be very different when he attempts the same test on ceramic cpus with integrated gold plated heat spreaders. I do feel if he processes everything in dilute nitric to completion first, he may get nearly the same results for crushed and uncrushed even with the gold topped cpus.

Steve


----------



## butcher

the pins and the silicone chip have to be connected by the bonding wire, and as far as I can tell it is inside the ceramic case.

I guess I have been trying to leach Phantoms.


----------



## lazersteve

I agree with you Butcher, but is it a requirement that the electrical connection is made with gold wire?

Steve


----------



## cnbarr

samuel-a said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> This is great list, i really liked your explanation for each term, especially the phantom wires enigma, lol :mrgreen:
> I'm sure many will benefit from it.
> 
> As to the terminology, I'd like to think i'm quite versed with it, so i think there wasn't any confusion by me. I just mentioned as a side note, to process gold plated lids OR heat spreaders (that are metallic based obviously) at seperate reaction vessel as i sensed some confusion in previous posts, sorry if i offended you somehow.
> 
> 
> Me and cnbarr, generaly speaking, processed the same type of cpu's, now, i know that no batch is ever same (different; sub-models, year, manufacturer etc'...), but just like cnbarr "felt" the yield is low, i do too. My guts (and experience) tells me he have more gold to extract, but i could be wrong of course. I only seek his best interest.
> 
> This is the type of processors that i have processed and my yield data relates to, i believe they are similar to cnbarr's batch.



Hey Sam,
I just wanted say that I had no derogatory intent with reference to terminology, I feel as though we were all on the same page so to speak.

As for the cpu's they are the same as the ones in your post, I am re-running them right now to see if I missed any gold, but I think the discrepancies in yields may be, as Steve pointed out, my scales. They are old, I do not have calibration weights for them, so the likelihood of them being off by a 0.1g is possible. Your yield data says that I should have got 4.48g from 64pcs, so if my scales are off by -0.1g, over 4g of weight would be a -0.4g discrepancy. Until I get new scales I will the 2nd run of the cpu's be the deciding factor.



lazersteve said:


> Cnbarr's test, regardless of the actual yields, show the cpus he tested yields the same amount of gold crushed or not. I feel his results will be very different when he attempts the same test on ceramic cpus with integrated gold plated heat spreaders. I do feel if he processes everything in dilute nitric to completion first, he may get nearly the same results for crushed and uncrushed even with the gold topped cpus. Steve



Hey Steve,
I will be getting to this test by the weekend, I have about 3lbs of cyrix MII and cyrix 6x86 I am going to use for this. I quite excited for the results actually, I'll post more details as I have them.

And thank you both Steve and Sam for the healthy interaction, it these type of discussions that show how much meticulous detail must be payed attention too in this craft.

Chris


----------



## vegaswinner

Very fast settling white precipitate in hcl-cl reaction? What is it? (lead? silver? copper 1) Am I missing a step out?

Here's my process so far.

Broke 20 cpu's into 4/6 pieces exposing the silicon wafer and gold wires.
Dropped in AP and left to bubble for 2 weeks (all pins had been digested leaving just foils, some sunk to the bottom of beaker, some still attached to the ceramic but came off with a rub)
Poured off AP and rinsed with hcl until rinse was clear, 5 rinses.
Covered cpus, foils, everything in the beaker with 36% hcl and added 15% CL (Sodium hypochlorite from reagent supplier) in small increments.
Almost immediately after adding the first bit of CL the solution went very cloudy, this white stuff settled very quickly.
Continued to add CL until no more visible gold.
Left to sit for an hour then poured off AUCL3 through 3 filters, being careful not to pour off any white stuff into filter.
Nice clear aucl3 solution put to one side.
Added some water to the broke cpus and white stuff to see what would happen, this turned into a very milky solution and the white stuff was not settling (will check it in the morning)

What is it and have I missed something.

Thanks


----------



## butcher

White chloride salts

NaCl (table salt), dissolves in water (clear solution).

Cu(I)Cl (copper I chloride), dissolves in Hydrochloric acid (HCl), (blue to green to black solution depending on concentration and dilution).

PbCl2 (lead chloride), not very soluble in cold water, but is very soluble in boiling hot water; PbCl2 in hot water is clear, will precipitate when water is cold.

AgCl (silver chloride), insoluble in hot water, basically is insoluble in HCl, can be separated from the other chloride salt's above because of this properties, it is fluffy and takes time to settle in solution so if using techniques above to separate it from the other chloride salts, give it time to settle in these solutions before decanting solutions, silver chloride is white in acidic chloride solution, but if salts are washed well in water and let sit in sunlight they will change darker violet to gray black, light is reducing them to silver metal (principle used in photography).


NaClO sodium hypo-chlorite (bleach), is made chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide (NaOH) usually in a electrolytic cell operations of brine salt (forming chlorine and sodium hydroxide).
Cl2 gas + 2NaOH --> NaClO + NaCl + H2O 
Notice salt (NaCl) and sodium hydroxide (NaOH) in the formula, these can be in our bleach also besides the NaClO, also when sodium hypo-chlorite is mixed with our hydrochloric acid solution we make by products such as listed below, (note also it is possible bleach can also lower acidity of our solution) (basically making salt out of our HCl acid), 
NaClO + 2HCl --> Cl2 gas + NaCl + H2O
Notice salt is a byproduct.
If heated NaClO decomposes to sodium chlorate and salt,
NaClO --> NaClO3 + 2NaCl


So you will have or can have several byproducts from your reaction, salt some sodium chlorate (depending on condition) and also insoluble chloride salts of metals from your materials you processed (depending on your process methods it is possible to have un-dissolved gold hidden in these salts also).

Now you have the tools to figure out what that white salt is, table salt or some other metal chloride salts, (well actually table salt is also a metal chloride salt we eat).

Hope all your white salts are silver.


----------



## vegaswinner

butcher said:


> Hope all your white salts are silver.


Me too... :lol:

I will get on on to separating these salts this week to see what I have.

Thanks butcher for the detailed response.


----------



## johnnybreaux

I'm not even a "newbie" yet (I haven't started). Just after reading your input; it would seem a bit more beneficial to recover the gold and make jewelry, trinkets, etc. and sell them for more. What do you think?


----------



## butcher

johnnybreaux,

Welcome to the forum.
Yes I think if a person could make nice jewelry the gold would be worth much more, the thing is a jeweler is not only an artist but someone who is a skilled mechanic in his craft, it can take years to learn recovery and refining, and years to become a jeweler, not that I am saying it cannot be done, as if a person worked hard he could learn both skills, the artist in us I think we are born with not something easily learned.


----------



## glondor

If you have the skills, Johnny, go for it.


----------



## cnbarr

johnnybreaux said:


> I'm not even a "newbie" yet (I haven't started). Just after reading your input; it would seem a bit more beneficial to recover the gold and make jewelry, trinkets, etc. and sell them for more. What do you think?



First off Johnny I will say welcome to the forum, second, this topic is geared mostly towards the processes and recovery from various ceramic cpu's and the yields that can be acquired from them. Please do not take what I am saying in the wrong, I have no intent to be audacious or derogatory in any way.

That aside, I will say I have absolutely no experience in jewelry making, but if a jeweler has to pay little or no money for the metals they use I would say they would fair out better then most. Your intent in refining would all depend on your goals toward refining, many of us here refine for the pure passion of it, and many to stash away a little gold for a rainy day, or both. But if you can find a niche with jewelry making and refining of PM's, I'd say you would probably do quite well.


----------



## Harold_V

johnnybreaux said:


> I'm not even a "newbie" yet (I haven't started). Just after reading your input; it would seem a bit more beneficial to recover the gold and make jewelry, trinkets, etc. and sell them for more. What do you think?


Is it safe to assume you already have the skills and knowledge to make jewelry? If not, you're in for a surprise. It requires skill, talent and equipment. Further, the idea of having such tools in the presence of a refining lab isn't a good one. Don't even think about doing it if you don't have separate quarters. Rust is death on tools, and it's a common problem for refiners, thanks to the acids that are required. 

For the record, of the more than 60 customers I had when I was refining, only one of them has gone on to do his own refining. Rarely can a bench man justify the time it takes unless a large volume of waste can be accumulated to warrant the time involved in refining. 

Harold


----------



## 1968pontiac

Gold-Digger said:


> Regarding trimming those 132 pin computer memory sticks I use the following method which took me several hours to figure out. I was first trying to use clippers, then heavy duty pliers to bend and break off the gold tipped memory edges. This was slow and labor intensive.
> 
> Now I just use a big heavy vise that I got at harbor freight for $30. It's jaws are 6" across (match the length of these memory sticks). I place the gold tipped edges into the vise and tighten the vise. I then take a heavy rubber hammer and with 3 or 4 swings these sticks separately nicely right where the clamp is located. I found this method to be just as good as trimming (o.k. 95% as accurate) but it's much faster and easier..
> 
> I use a dust mask for this technique as I can see junk coming off these memory sticks when I hit them with a hammer.
> 
> A better technique would be to use a tabletop metal shear but these cost $400+. And it may not be that much faster or accurate than my technique using a $5 hammer and $30 vise.
> 
> Does anyone else have some good feedback on techniques they are using to quickly separate the gold parts from the boards?



I picked up a small desktop metal shear from harbor freight http://www.harborfreight.com/throatless-shear-38413.html

I mounted it to a bench and away I went. It works very well for just over $125 bucks. You will use it on everthing from slot 1 chips to isa/pci boards and ram...Work smarter not harder.....


----------



## Dude4ever

Darn, I processed 2 ceramic CPU's very similar to those in your videos Sam.

I followed the procedure as best as I could, I used nitric and that is a challenge I must say 

But I finished the dissolution of all metals in the beaker, the colour were bright yellowish orange, but when I poured it in the beaker that held the ice-cubes, this happened instantly:





Hoke doesn't say anything about this, here is where experience comes to play. What to do next people? ^^
Stannous test were positive for gold.

Thanks


----------



## Geo

that is silver chloride. you can let it settle and then filter it through a few coffee filters. after filtering, let it set for awhile longer to see if any more will drop. your gold will have a slight amount of silver in it when you drop the gold so follow Harolds instructions on the rinses and washes to remove the final bit of silver chloride from your gold powder.


----------



## Jamessnipes505

I have had this happen to me a few times. Usually when urea was introduced to the solution. I have let the silver chloride settle and filtered many times into a seperate beaker. My last attempt to get all of the gold bearing solution off of the crystals which would desolve with water ( I still don't fully understand the silver cementing and washing process ) in another beaker I ended up with a very dilute yellow solution with silver chloride and gold present I precipitated the gold with zinc. After washing the gold powder very well it melted down very nicely and appeared to be pure. Did I drop any silver with the gold and just washed the silver out? I have not tested to see if any traces of silver stayed in the solution. Mainly because I don't know how to wash and melt so I am storing the crystals until I understand a little more. Was this a reasonable thing to do or just be more patient if it ever happens again? 
Thanks
James


----------



## Geo

first, reclaiming gold through this process is just that,reclaiming or recovery,and is not considered refining.to refine it, you would have to dissolve it a second time following the rinses and washes to remove the silver chloride.

second, you have to follow the rinsing and washing processes to remove impurities to really clean your gold powder.after separating the power, follow with a hard boil in hcl to remove any copper in the powder due to drag down.decant and repeat until the hcl stays clear at 15 minutes of boiling.follow this with a boil in water.decant and repeat.follow with a boil in ammonium hydroxide for 15 minutes.decant and boil in water for 15 minutes.decant and force dry.

this should leave you with a light tan gold powder of high quality.the ammonium hydroxide wash is to remove any traces of silver chloride.


----------



## Dude4ever

What baffeled me was the instant colour change from yellow to green when introdused to Ice and water.

Thank you Geo, always nice answers to get from you  I now have gold at the bottom of beaker, and soon enough going to wash it and do the process again to refine. 
But my first batch that I washed was actually so small that most of the brown powder dissappeared during the process, and that who was left dried into the bottom of the beaker, so I had to dissolve it 
again with HCl-Cl to clean it 

I have made an arrangement for obtaining computer parts at a regular basis for free, so I can get a hold of more processors at a time.
For pins I'm starting to have great success with the H2SO4 stripping cell.


----------



## samuel-a

I have finally completed the written tutorial accompanied to the two YT videos.

Part 1
Part 2


----------



## maynman1751

Very nice Sam! Well done. John.


----------



## BAMGOLD

X2 - Very nice, Your site is coming along nicely 



> the nest addition


 So far found in part 1  End of 4th paragraph after Safety Note: Remember this process should be done outdoors or in a fume hood.


----------



## samuel-a

Thanks BAMGOLD

I have fixed it.


----------



## BAMGOLD

Excellent Videos and Reading, they go hand in hand very well, best on YouTube for sure! Oh did I menction, one of your videos on YouTube brought me to this forum, and I wasn't even looking up Gold Recovery... weird..


----------



## Marcel

lazersteve said:


> I agree with you Butcher, but is it a requirement that the electrical connection is made with gold wire?
> Steve



Absolutely not. In fact you may get a batch that does have gold bond wires, but there may also consist of aluminum. That is even very likely.
I have crushed a lot of large IC flatpacks and notebook CPUs in the last weeks and examined them. I was very disappointed to see, how few really contained gold bond wires.
Now why do we have such great variation concerning the yields of complex IC such as CPUs and flatpacks? 
My assumption and observation is that a few of the chips do really have golden bondwires and some even have golden or goldplated leadframes (I think it is even karat gold). So if you only have a handful of them in a large batch, that will give you the yield. 
*But* most large ICs/CPUs do not have any gold inside. 
I may make sense to crack them into 2 pieces and investigate the gold content first with bare eye and then process them. That would eliminate a lot of waste and work...


----------



## lazersteve

For the record, the question quoted above was more of a rehtorical comment than a true question to Butcher. The question was posed to make readers think.

Marcel your observations are spot on with mine. Too many members assume they have high gold bearing material only to find little or no gold in there solutions after many hours of hard work. Research is paramount in obtaining good yields from escrap.

Steve


----------



## jmharris

Hey everyone. I will start off by saying that I am a green horn when it comes to all of this. I've been watching videos on youtube done by "indeeditdoes", which i must say, he does it justice. I'm hopefully going to attach a picture of 22K gold plated pins. There 2" long and my question on this would be, would paying $4 for 50 of them be worth the investment. Im a corrosion guy for a pipeline company, so getting some of the chemicals wont be a problem. If this is a good investment how much gold dust should i roughly expect. I've tried googling calculators for this but havn't had much luck. any answers you pro's have for me would be awesome. If anyone has any first time tips for me please reply on here or the best way would be through my e-mail, [email protected], Again thank you to everyone who has spent the time to make a website like this and not hogging all of the valued info.


----------



## Geo

jmharris said:


> Hey everyone. I will start off by saying that I am a green horn when it comes to all of this. I've been watching videos on youtube done by "indeeditdoes", which i must say, he does it justice. I'm hopefully going to attach a picture of 22K gold plated pins. There 2" long and my question on this would be, would paying $4 for 50 of them be worth the investment. Im a corrosion guy for a pipeline company, so getting some of the chemicals wont be a problem. If this is a good investment how much gold dust should i roughly expect. I've tried googling calculators for this but havn't had much luck. any answers you pro's have for me would be awesome. If anyone has any first time tips for me please reply on here or the best way would be through my e-mail, [email protected], Again thank you to everyone who has spent the time to make a website like this and not hogging all of the valued info.



some more information about the pins would help. what are they made to do, what is their purpose. do you know the plating thickness. have you had a sample tested for content. what would 50 of them weigh. what does one weigh.


----------



## lazersteve

I ran a batch of those pins (from an eBay seller in Australia if memory serves me correctly) several years back. They are only flash plated.

Steve


----------



## jmharris

lazersteve said:


> I ran a batch of those pins (from an eBay seller in Australia if memory serves me correctly) several years back. They are only flash plated.
> 
> Steve



steve, im not familiar with flash plated. I take that as a bad thing. The weight I am not sure of, i have only seen the pics. I'll probably just stick to destroying older computers.

Also i have another question. as the videos posted by samual for breaking down the gold plating from pins, could you use the same principle for getting rid of the impurities in gold jewelry. Because when you just get a crucible and melt jewelry, it still has the other metals in with it aswell. so maybe the real question I am trying to get at is, is there a way to get 14k and 18K gold jewelry melted without having the other metals end up in your ingot? I have heard that you could put glass in with your jewelry and the nickle and other metals will end up in the glass once it hardens, then you just break the glass off and all that is left is the gold only. sorry that im not familiar with some of the lingo that goes along with these processes. Thanks for understanding. 

Jeremiah


----------



## jimdoc

jmharris said:


> is there a way to get 14k and 18K gold jewelry melted without having the other metals end up in your ingot?
> Jeremiah



Then why would we need refiners? It isn't that easy.
Here is a book you should study;
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2480

Jim


----------



## butcher

Jeremiah,

The glass you’re talking about in the melt is called slag, what you’re thinking about is done mostly with ore, or in an assay, a flux is used to give properties to the melt to make chemical changes at the high temperature, oxidizers like potassium nitrate are sometimes used to oxidize base metals so they will report in the slag (glass), sometimes the opposite is added a reducer like sugar, charcoal, flour, these will reduce the metals from being an oxide back into metal, like when lead oxide is used in the flux, and if the ore has oxidizing properties they would add a reducing flux to convert lead oxide to lead (so the lead would pick up the fine particles of gold or other valuable metals in the melt, the glass can come from silica sand, quartz or crushed glass, borax will also assist in forming the slag, this melt is a chemical reaction, and the flux formula changes the chemistry in the melt, so flux is chosen to give the desired result with different types of ore (which are of differing chemical compositions), so not just any flux recipe would work, the recipe is chosen after determining what type of ore you have.

This process would be useless to try and mix a flux to oxidize base metals with karat gold where there is a very high percentage of base metals, and your chances of loosing valuable metal in the melt, the process would cause more harm than good.

There is a better way to separate the base metals from jewelry like 14k, melt with three parts silver(in-quarter the gold with silver), pour this low karat melt into shot, and then dissolve the silver and other base metals in nitric acid (gold will not dissolve in this acid), we lower the karat with silver because the 14K is a mix of two metals that dissolve in different acids, nitric for silver (the gold which does not dissolve in nitric can keep you from dissolving the silver if you did not in-quarter the gold), once we remove silver and the other base metals from the gold we can then dissolve the gold, (and the little bit of metals we have not removed), this is usually done in aqua regia (HCl with nitric added), if we tried to dissolve the 14K gold the silver in it will not dissolve in this acid and forms an insoluble crust keeping our acid from attacking the gold in the karat jewelry, here again is why we in-quartered our gold to remove silver above, once we get gold dissolved we use a chemical to selectively precipitate the gold as pure as we can, leaving other metals in solution, the gold would then most likely be dissolved again to refine it further.


The book that Jimdoc, directed you to study, will discuss how to refine your gold, reading the book and learning from it will give you an education worth more than some of the gold you will melt. Hoke's book a must read for anyone wishing to learn refining.


----------



## jmharris

butcher said:


> There is a better way to separate the base metals from jewelry like 14k, melt with three parts silver(in-quarter the gold with silver), pour this low karat melt into shot, and then dissolve the silver and other base metals in nitric acid (gold will not dissolve in this acid), we lower the karat with silver because the 14K is a mix of two metals that dissolve in different acids, nitric for silver (the gold which does not dissolve in nitric can keep you from dissolving the silver if you did not in-quarter the gold), once we remove silver and the other base metals from the gold we can then dissolve the gold, (and the little bit of metals we have not removed), this is usually done in aqua regia (HCl with nitric added), if we tried to dissolve the 14K gold the silver in it will not dissolve in this acid and forms an insoluble crust keeping our acid from attacking the gold in the karat jewelry, here again is why we in-quartered our gold to remove silver above, once we get gold dissolved we use a chemical to selectively precipitate the gold as pure as we can, leaving other metals in solution, the gold would then most likely be dissolved again to refine it further.



I just want to start off by saying Thank you to Jim for allowing me that book. Every where I found it, it cost $130-$150, so again thank you. I will start in on it Sunday.

My questions for Butcher are...1. what do you mean to melt with three parts, or in-quarter the gold?

2. what do you mean by pour this low karat into shot?

if what I am understanding of the rest of it is the same as if you were to try and remove gold plating from the fingers or pins in electronics, is that correct.

The reason I am trying to get to the bottom of this is because I live in North Dakota and it has alot of older generation folks up here. So
when they have estate sales and what not, there is a lot of older jewelry going for very cheap. So i kind of started picking up the $5 boxes with gold earrings or old class rings, etc..

So please forgive me for asking so many questions. I'm just trying not to waste my time or money on this. 

Thanks again everyone
Jeremiah


----------



## jimdoc

Jeremiah,
Take your time and study the forum, and read Hoke's book. It isn't a one day or one week course. There is much you should learn and fully understand before you jump into this hobby or adventure.
Don't start any processing until you understand what you are doing, what the next steps are, and most importantly that you know and follow all the safety precautions.

The book is compliments of the forum, I just gave you the link. That book should answer all your questions and the next questions you will have. This forum and the search box will answer most of the rest.

Jim


----------



## Geo

im not Butcher, but ill try to explain.inquarting, is bringing the karat down to 1/4 or 6K. since 24K is pure gold,6K is 1/4 gold. this brings the gold content of a piece of material into the range where nitric acid can attack the base metal between the gold atoms, digesting the base metal and leaving pure 24K gold behind. this process is mainly used on gold of a known Karat and weight for the purposes of adding enough silver to the mix to effectively bring the gold to 6K. silver is used because it takes less acid to digest silver than it does other metals, like copper. 

shotting is melting the inquarted gold and pouring it through a melting dish the has had a hole drilled in the bottom and is heated so the melted metal will flow through it evenly and freely. the melted metal is poured through the dish into a metal (stainless steel preferably) container of cool to cold water. as the metal pours through the hole, it forms drops and as it contacts the water, hardens into round shot like BB's. this increases the area to give the acid a better chance to do its work.


----------



## jmharris

Thanks Geo. I will start my reading tomorrow morning/afternoonish of Hokes book.

I am a beginner, and know that it will take awhile for this process to happen for me. Are there any tips as far as what I should really be looking for when it comes to searching for cpu's or things like that.

Im going to attach an e-bay listing and I would like to know what yall think of the listing, if that is something I should be looking for when trying to find computer hardware.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1LB-Gold-Scraps-Recovery-1-650-Gold-Pin-Connector-ERNI-453g-PEELED-/190647016842?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c63729d8a

Thanks you,
Jeremiah


----------



## jimdoc

Ebay is about the worst place to look for computer scrap to refine. You are almost guaranteed to pay too much. It is where you find it, but try not to find it on Ebay, if you plan on not losing money in your new hobby.

Jim


----------



## Geo

Ebay IS the worst place to look for precious metals of any kind. if you need material to experiment with and learn on, then its probably the fastest way to get some other than maybe buy some from a member here. start with something simple and easy, like fingers from finger boards. the AP method is easy and can be made in small or large quantities as needed as long as you have a safe place for the reaction.


----------



## ysebag

I followed all the steps, but after a day after adding SMB Ihave got som sort of cristalls. picture 1.
I tried to add some natrium carbonate to test what happends. It happened picture 2.

Hwo knows whats this? THX: Bettina


----------



## samuel-a

ysebag 

Hard to tell...

Could you write exactly each step that you took in your process ?


----------



## ysebag

samuel-a said:


> ysebag
> 
> Hard to tell...
> 
> Could you write exactly each step that you took in your process ?



Thanks for your fast answer

1.Every e-scrap i found mostly RAM + fingers + circutboards with gold on it + HCL+water. (warm up) then sodium nitrate. Waited til the gold dissolved.
2.Then when it was cold added sulfuric acid. (took out the white powder) But after there was still som silver on the top.
3.About 1,5 tee spoon SMB.
4.24 hours later this white crystals on the bottom + (now as i can see there is some gold also + steel some new crystals 48 hours later)
5. took a small amount of cristals, and washed(crashed into a powder).
6.added some natrium carbonate to water and mixed it (i dont have URSA) so now i have this dark red-brown powder.


----------



## butcher

ysebag, 

Here is what I see.
You made aqua regia, it is not a good idea to dissolve base metals with the gold in this solution, base metals are removed first, also if there is metal left un-dissolved (even inside of components like circuit board inner traces, the gold can plate back out of solution and can easily be thrown away with that trash.

When any one says circuit boards I think solder, tin if in solution you will have loses in gold.

I see no mention of stannous chloride, how do you know the solution has any values in it.

I see no mention of removing nitric acid.

Sulfuric would help to remove lead sulfate, but you would only need a couple of drops.

I see no mention of diluting solution to remove silver.

I see no mention of filtering.

The natrium carbonate(first i ever heard of that word), I suppose is just baking soda (sodium carbonate) this would change the PH and bring down almost all of those metals you had in solution.

You need to spend some time studying so that you do not waste your gold this way.

Cement on copper, save powder, after you understand more then get the values from these powders.

For the type of materials you had there are easier methods, Aqua regia is not easy for most people when they begin to learn, it has details that need to be followed closely for it to work and for you to get your gold back from it without losing the gold.

Have you studied the acid peroxide process or the HCl/ NaCLO (hydrochloric acid/ sodium hypochlorite [bleach]) process?


----------



## ysebag

butcher said:


> ysebag,
> 
> Here is what I see.
> You made aqua regia, it is not a good idea to dissolve base metals with the gold in this solution, base metals are removed first, also if there is metal left un-dissolved (even inside of components like circuit board inner traces, the gold can plate back out of solution and can easily be thrown away with that trash.
> 
> When any one says circuit boards I think solder, tin if in solution you will have loses in gold.
> 
> I see no mention of stannous chloride, how do you know the solution has any values in it.
> 
> I see no mention of removing nitric acid.
> 
> Sulfuric would help to remove lead sulfate, but you would only need a couple of drops.
> 
> I see no mention of diluting solution to remove silver.
> 
> I see no mention of filtering.
> 
> The natrium carbonate(first i ever heard of that word), I suppose is just baking soda (sodium carbonate) this would change the PH and bring down almost all of those metals you had in solution.
> 
> You need to spend some time studying so that you do not waste your gold this way.
> 
> Cement on copper, save powder, after you understand more then get the values from these powders.
> 
> For the type of materials you had there are easier methods, Aqua regia is not easy for most people when they begin to learn, it has details that need to be followed closely for it to work and for you to get your gold back from it without losing the gold.
> 
> Have you studied the acid peroxide process or the HCl/ NaCLO (hydrochloric acid/ sodium hypochlorite [bleach]) process?





Thank you guys for your answer!!

I already did all of these steps (diluting, filtering, testing etc.). but what do you mean that removing the nitric acid? Evaporate and fill it up with HCL?. im already have som powder from an another time. of course im just a rooky that is why im asking. 
I still have no idea what are these cristalls were? removed, and melted. I got some weird black metal shiny thing, can be slicy magnetized...
In my country called natriumcarbonate. almost, but not baking soda(E500).I keep learning, learning, reading and asking
Where can i find this HCl/ NaCLO method?
could you recommend some step by step youtube links. 
THX:Betty


----------



## maynman1751

Ysebag, look here! http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12914


----------



## butcher

ysebag,

Gold will not dissolve in HCL, but oxidized gold will form a gold salt with HCl (AuCl3).

Nitric acid will not dissolve gold, but it can Oxidize the gold, (probably forming a passivated layer of oxidized gold just a guess here).

When we add an oxidizer to the hydrochloric acid HCl, the oxidizer oxidizes the gold so that the HCl will form AuCl3 in solution.

Nitric acid is only one strong oxidizer that is strong enough to oxidize gold, household bleach like you wash clothes in to get them white (sodium hypochlorite) is another, the bleach form chlorine gas in solution when mixed in acids, it is this chlorine gas that oxidizes the gold.

Once gold is in solution (dissolved)we no longer need the oxidizer, in fact the oxidizer now will not let us get our gold back out of solution.

Oxidized means the atom has a loss of electrons, reduced means to gain of electrons.

When a gold atom lost its electron it is dissolved into solution, to get the gold back out of solution we must give it back all of its electrons so that it will fall out of solutions as many gold atoms (metal gold powder), as long as there is an oxidizer in solution like nitric acid we cannot give back the gold its electrons and make it into gold powder, because the nitric acid in solution keeps on taking the electrons away from the gold, so as long as there is an oxidizer like nitric acid or chlorine in solution we cannot reduce (give back electrons) our gold back to metal.

When dissolving gold several things can help to make things work better for when you are later trying to get your gold back out of solution.

Do not dissolve gold with base metals.
Keep tin out of solution with gold.
Use only the minimum amount of oxidizer needed to get the gold dissolved (using heat to help) and to also insure all of the oxidizer has reacted before adding more.

ysebag,

I can answer a few questions, but from reading what you have said, there is no way I can answer all of your questions, You have a lot to learn, I can help some, but for you to learn what you will need to know to be successful in this field you will need to study, You are very lucky it is all here on the forum, many have answered these many times, so just keep reading and soon you will find many answers, you will find answers to questions you did not even think of, you will also find many ideas of how to do things and what to look for when trying to find scrap, or very useful tools to make the work easier.

If all I did was answer your question I would cheat you out of finding many treasures (these treasures you will find in this forum).
Have you read the guide to the forum?
Have you visited Laser Steve’s web site?
Have you been studying HOKE’s book?
Have you studied the Forum?
If not you are missing the real treasure, it is not in that gold solution you have there now (that is only a tiny bit of value that you may not get if you do not understand how), the real treasure is found by studying and getting wisdom of how to recover and refine, this wisdom you will not get from someone answering a couple of questions, this understanding comes from hard work studying and practicing what you will learn.

And this forum has the goldmine of information just waiting for you to go in and get the treasure.

ysebag, all of the answers are there.


----------



## Billy Porky

There is some great information here, however I think there is a problem with attitude. As I see it the problem we all have is obtaining the gold content of a specific CPU. This problem has two facets 1 assaying the CPU and 2 identifying the CPU . Quit clearly in this post we have experts in both fields. 
How about one of our experts posting a list showing us how to correctly identify the CPUs and then any further expert analysis could be attributed to precise CPUs 
In fact we could all post our results which like the poster says would give us an expected figure and if we had expert analysis that would give us a figure to aim for.

I think that would make great reading and a step forward in our processing efforts.


----------



## lazersteve

I group my cpus by yield, age, and appearance. Here's the overall groups I have:


Very Old Purple/White CPUS and DIPs/SideBraze
Math Coprocessors Class Gold Cover
Motorola 3/4" x 3/4" Gold Top
Intel mathco Gold Bottom
Oddball mathco Gold Bottom

Intel Class 386
Motorola 1" x 1" Gold Top
Intel 386/Small 960 Gold Bottom
Oddball 386 Gold Bottom

Intel Class 486
Motorola 1.25" x 1.25" Gold Top
Intel 486/ Large 960 Gold Bottom
Oddball 486 Gold Bottom (Ti, IBM, etc.)
Nortel/LSI 1.25" x 1.25" Gold Bottom
Phillips/LSI/Orion Gold Top and Bottom

Intel Pentium I Class Gold Top & Bottom 
Intel 75/60
DEC double post and single posts Gold Top and Bottom
AMD K5 Gold Top and Bottom
Winchip Gold Top and Bottom

Intel Pentium I Class Ceramic Bottom
AMD K5 Ceramic Bottom
Intel 486 Class Ceramic Bottom
AMD 386 Class Gold Bottom
AMD 486 Class Gold Bottom
IBM/Cyrix MMX Gold Top with Ceramic Bottom
Ceramic DLP CPUs with glass
 Low Grade Newer Ceramic CPU
Ceramic Athlon/Duron
Ceramic AMD Aluminum Lid K5/K6
Intel Black Fiber MMX
Slotted Intel with Green Fiber CPU

Very Low Grade CPUs
Pentium II & III Green Fiber CPU with Legs
Slotted Intel with Brown Epoxy CPU
Epoxy/Fiber AMD cpus

Ultra Low Grade CPU
All Newer CPUs with and without legs


The list is not super granular, but includes most common types. I have not included north/south bridge or BGA cpus in the list.

Steve


----------



## Krazykrackerkarl

How do you process the gold caps on ceramic CPUs


----------



## lazersteve

Electrolytic cell with sulfuric acid electrolyte.

Steve


----------



## luiggiphilipi

samuel-a said:


> *Part -1*
> 
> [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ_R8Gr26kk[/youtube]
> 
> 
> *Part - 2*
> 
> [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv4CcaTVJqY[/youtube]
> 
> All comments, suggestions and questions are welcomed 8)



could i use muriatic acid instead of Hydrochloric acid ?
in my country hydrocholoric acid its controlled by the army, and i would need to be a certified quimic to buy it...
and in the internet (wikipedia) it says that both acid are the same BUT Hydrochloric acid has about 30~38% concentratred and muriatic acid has 10~12% only.

soo, could i use 3 times more of muriatic acid?


----------



## Geo

muriatic acid is the industrial name for hydrochloric acid. its the same thing.


----------



## Krazykrackerkarl

instead of using AR on ceramic CPUs, would it be possible to use the muriatic acid/bleach formula to dissolve the gold?


----------



## maynman1751

I really doubt that it would be strong enough to get a good result. It is reserved for foils or powder dissolution.


----------



## paxteq

I read through most if this thread and got a fair idea of the 'spot value' for a PP chip. concluding that the collectors value of these far outstrips the value of gold content (price around $1700/£1000 at time of writing) 

Not only are theses items a rare piece of history - but a working unit (particularly the dual core models) are sought after by collectors (at least in the UK). Even the crazy ebay prices of late are a good investment... but only if you build them into a working machine.

DIY refining in the UK is out of the question, but a couple of large outfits pay good money on the weighbridge. That said, this board has been enlightening - thank you all for the contributions and I hope my perspective as a vintage computer nerd adds to the community.


----------



## Palladium

Welcome to the forum sir!


----------



## butcher

paxteq,
why is recovery and refining out of the question there?
We can always learn from a vintage computer nerd welcome to the forum.


----------



## ovidiuanghel

Ok, i think this is the place, i made a test on a single AMD K6 and got 0.03g and a K5 gold top and get 0.22g. Is this right?


----------



## damezbullion

lazersteve said:


> Electrolytic cell with sulfuric acid electrolyte.
> 
> Steve


 i have been looking for this for a while now, right i got my ceramic cpu lids, i cant use electrolytic, what shall i do, should i hlc then ap. or strait in with the ar, if ar should i take the nitric route or the poor mans route hypochlorite ( which still seems expensive )


----------



## lazersteve

CPU Lid Processing


----------



## damezbullion

wow, how simple is this lol, nice clean operation too, thanks man


----------



## lazersteve

What looks simple in writing is not always as easy as it looks on paper. You must follow each step through to completion or your results and yields will suffer. Do not base your reactions on time, but instead on completeness of each step in the process. You can also get visual clues form the reactions themselves (eg: color, vapors, bubbles, etc.). You biggest mistake will be rushing the process.

Steve


----------



## maynman1751

lazersteve said:


> CPU Lid Processing


Steve, do you incinerate between the HCl and the nitric so as not to produce an AR effect as per Harold's direction?


----------



## lazersteve

I incinerate any material that I suspect contains trace organics prior to treatment of any kind. 

I rinse loose foils with hot water until the rinse water tests neutral to pH paper to confirm removal of traces of HCl. I try to avoid incinerating foils as the heat tends to fuse the foils into larger blobs which are much harder to later dissolve unless using AR. There is nothing wrong with incineration after HCl as long as you do not melt the material making further dissolution of the foils more difficult. If you are not using AR to dissolve the foils you will find fused foils are much more difficult to dissolve using the work around reagents like AP and HCl-Cl.

Steve


----------



## GOLDbuyerCA

*Thanks every one. * big read for me, but i learned to value 486/s, see you all in Vegas, or London, playing Texas Holdem.


----------



## Oz

Oddly enough I have played poker using cpu’s as poker chips.


----------



## GOLDbuyerCA

*Pentium Pro value * This has to be accurate for the high end, imo, Bidder	Bid Amount	Bid Time	
0***2( 5072) US $2,659.00	
Feb-19-13 07:54:36 PST
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-129-Scrap-Pentium-Pro-CPUs-Processors-Computer-Gold-Recovery-24-9-lbs-/300864064154?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460ce54a9a


k***2( 15) US $2,609.00	
Feb-21-13 11:15:24 PST

s***a( 146) US $2,509.00	
Feb-18-13 18:55:21 PST

k***2( 15) US $2,250.00	
Feb-18-13 21:47:02 PST

t***t( 330) US $2,200.00	
Feb-18-13 18:04:10 PST

s***a( 199) US $1,501.00	
Feb-18-13 17:31:08 PST

m***m( 141) US $1,300.00	
Feb-18-13 17:53:50 PST

m***m( 141) US $1,050.00	
Feb-18-13 17:53:38 PST

m***m( 141) US $850.00	
Feb-18-13 17:53:22 PST

1***o( 4 ) US $200.00	
Feb-18-13 17:47:32 PST

1***o( 4 ) US $100.00	
Feb-18-13 17:47:24 PST

1***o( 4 ) US $2.00	
Feb-18-13 17:47:13 PST

Starting Price US $0.99	
Feb-18-13 17:07:57 PST


----------



## Palladium

Somebody somewhere is saying " That's a 129 grams of gold". That's over 4oz of gold! Man that's worth $6,300!!!!! 
If i can get them at $3,000 dollars i can double my money. What a deal !!!!


----------



## GOLDbuyerCA

*Knock Down Price * Winning bid:US $4,306.00
[ 19 bids ] there is is Lad's and Ladis,


----------



## Palladium

Wow!!! $33 a piece. 

1/3 gram per chip = $17 per chip gold value before refining, shipping, selling. He only lost $16 a chip X 129 chips=$2064.

:shock:


----------



## necromancer

wow !!!


----------



## cejohnsonsr

I've read this entire thread & searched. I haven't had access to my copy of Hoke most of the last week or so due to my hard drive dieing. I'm working from a borrowed laptop right now & don't always have access to it so I'll have to check for responses as I'm able.

I have a few Pentium Pros I'd like to process. In 1 of his replies in this thread, lazersteve mentions preprocessing with a 35% nitric bath to remove the tungsten/copper heat spreader. In another he mentions complete digestion of base metals & continuing the nitric bath until the die falls out. I'm wondering if a 50/50 solution of water & 67% nitric acid produces the 35% nitric bath he calls for. (33.5% actually. I know. I figure someone will tell me if this is close enough.) Steve mentions tungsten turning into a yellow powder. My understanding of "complete digestion" is that all the metal is dissolved into solution. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken. 

So, my questions are:

1 - Is my understanding of the 50/50 nitric acid/water solution correct? 
2 - How much nitric acid should it take to digest this tungsten heat spreader? (I remember seeing such formulas for PMs but not for base metals. Hoke says newbies usually use too much of everything. I have a limited supply on hand so I don't want to be wasteful.) 
3 - Should I use heat or just let it soak cold?
4 - Any idea how long it should take to digest a given amount of tungsten? 

I'll check back as soon as I'm able for any replies. This thread has a LOT of good info. Thanks to everyone who contributed & to everyone who has helped me along the way. (I still have a long way to go. I might even enroll in a Chem 101 course this Spring or Summer.)


----------



## lazersteve

Mix the 67% nitric acid with an equal volume of distilled water and you will be fine. 

Digest at room temperature or higher (more heat = faster), the hotter you go the more likely you will form the yellow tungsten compound which is *undesirable*. Go room temperature for a few days and the lids will slide off with zero yellow tungsten compound. Get everything hot and you could be done in a few hours with a little yellow compound to deal with in your filter cycles.

Don't try to digest the tungsten, just get the copper and silver out. You'll know your done when everything falls apart, like a well cooked piece of meat, it 'falls right off the bone'  . 

Trying to digest tungsten will be a lifelong venture, well maybe not that long, but you get the idea.

The goal is to remove the copper, silver, and other base metals, not to digest the tungsten.

Steve


----------



## samuel-a

W will not dissolve.
Only the surface react to produce yellow oxide that slowly falls off.

W is, for all practical reasons, inert to this treatment.


----------



## cejohnsonsr

Thank you, Steve. That was just what I needed to know. I was thinking it would probably be something like that. I'm going to be conservative & assume that just enough solution to cover should be the right amount.

I'm pretty sure I'll see this for myself after the heat spreader & lid come loose, but I'll mention it anyway. I'm guessing that the Nitric/water solution will loosen the gold from the spreader so I should be able to scrape it off as foil. I saw a video somewhere where someone did that. Also, that's kind of how it looks in the pic you posted of your foils.

Thank you too, Sam. I appreciate the input.

Ed


----------



## lazersteve

Yes, the legs fall off, the foils come loose from the spreader, and the die should be free of the housing...the 'that Cha-ka meat falls right off the bone' (Land of the Lost Reference here) as a fellow refiner friend and I always say. 

Steve


----------



## steyr223

That was a long couple days
My eyes hurt good night 
Excellent thanks everyone.

Steyr223 rob


----------



## Wookie

hey sam, i have seen your video about gold recovery from CPU i had a question, i have several things that i dont know.
1) in part 2, after filtering the cold sollution, you say wash the filter with Ag/Pb Chloride, what is that mean?
2) in final result, we get gold powder, how many Karat that we get?
thanks.


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

I have processed a lot of ceramic CPUs. Both with a ball mill and without. There is a slight gain if you are doing large quantities, but I doubt it amounts to much and probably would not cover the cost of the ball mill, nor power required to operate nor the time.

Scott


----------



## Harold_V

Wookie said:


> hey sam, i have seen ur video abut gold recovery from CPU i had a question, i have several things that i dont know.
> 1) in part 2, after filtering the cold sollution, u say wash the filter with Ag/Pb Chloride, what is that mean?
> 2) in final result, we get gold powder, how many Karat that we get?
> thanks.


Wookie,
I'm going to consider that you are not a native of the US, but we're very critical of the language that is used on this board. *Any form of text lingo is not permitted.* If you mean to say "you", spell it that way, DO NOT USE THE LETTER U. That applies to all types of shortcuts that may be common for texting. 
I readily ban readers who refuse to comply, and will do so without further warning. Be advised accordingly.

Harold


----------



## Wookie

Harold_V said:


> Wookie said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey sam, i have seen ur video abut gold recovery from CPU i had a question, i have several things that i dont know.
> 1) in part 2, after filtering the cold sollution, u say wash the filter with Ag/Pb Chloride, what is that mean?
> 2) in final result, we get gold powder, how many Karat that we get?
> thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Wookie,
> I'm going to consider that you are not a native of the US, but we're very critical of the language that is used on this board. *Any form of text lingo is not permitted.* If you mean to say "you", spell it that way, DO NOT USE THE LETTER U. That applies to all types of shortcuts that may be common for texting.
> I readily ban readers who refuse to comply, and will do so without further warning. Be advised accordingly.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...

sorry, i already edit that.


----------



## samuel-a

Wookie said:


> hey sam, i have seen your video about gold recovery from CPU i had a question, i have several things that i dont know.
> 1) in part 2, after filtering the cold sollution, you say wash the filter with Ag/Pb Chloride, what is that mean?
> 2) in final result, we get gold powder, how many Karat that we get?
> thanks.



Wookie,

1) Lead and Silver chloride are solids, the point in to filter it out.
Meaning, these solid salts will remain in the filter and needed to be washed with water to remove residual gold solution.

2) Ideally, the gold resoulting from the process shown in the video would be 99.5% or higher, but that's very much depends on the way one work.


----------



## Harold_V

Wookie said:


> sorry, i already edit that.


Full cooperation. I like that. 

Thanks, Wookie. 

Harold


----------



## pedroADV

First, sorry for my english, it is not so good.

I have only one question, in video posted by Samuel - Gold recovery process from Ceramic CPU's
I really want to know if i must to use a silver chlorid ?
And when i must use it, my question is when I must use it because i dont know


----------



## gold4mike

The silver chloride Sam mentions is the result of using AR (or Poorman's AR) when silver is present.

It is not something you will purposely add to the reaction.


----------



## pedroADV

thanks a lot for the answer

So, everything what I need for Gold recovery process from Ceramic CPU's and refining and melting is : HCL, Sodium Nitrate, Sulfuric Acid, SMB, Stannous Chlorid, Ammonia.
That´s all what I need ?


----------



## butcher

That is all you need to make a big mess.
What you really need is to study, Hoke's book, dealing with waste, the forum...


----------



## pedroADV

butcher : that was really helpful, thanks.

I study a lot and Samuel´s video is really good and helpful but, just for my own satisfaction
I added here my previous question. I just want to know if I forgot some chemicals


----------



## butcher

pedroADV.

As I said that is all you need to make a big mess.
You seen a video and read a little, the video is done by someone who has studied for years, and is showing a very small portion of a process or processes (I am unsure of the video you are referring to and cannot comment on it specifically), what you will not see or learn from watching a video is the information and knowledge you will need to go from scrap to gold and deal with waste...

The video would have to be longer than most CD's could store data, to teach you all of the things you will need to learn, and understand.

The video would be a great help to someone who already understood all of the processes and the basics of recovery and refining, but for not a beginner with little understanding of the chemistry, dangers, and so on, especially if having to ask what chemicals he would need (I do not see anything in your list to treat waste, what I do see is some chemical in your list that could form an explosive mix with metals in solution if not used properly.

I am not trying to give you a hard time, I am actually trying to help you get started.

Right now (as far as I know) you do not need any chemicals, you can get what you need when you know you need it (I could give you a very large list of chemical we use, but if you ran out and bought them what would you do with them, until you knew you had a use?

What you need is to get a basic understanding and knowledge of recovery and refining, understand the safety involved, know how to deal with waste, know how to keep yourself and others safe from corrosive acids, poisonous gases, and deadly toxic waste, understand how metals react with chemicals, and how metals can form explosive mixes...

Basically you need to put the horse in front of the cart if you wish to get anywhere, right now you have the cart in front of the horse and trying to go backwards to learn, this is a recipe for a big mess and disaster and much frustration on your part. 

Work on the process in the video after you get the basic understanding and then you will do much better. 

Start with hokes book, concentrate on it, read it through once, then go back an read again the getting acquainted experiments, now you will know what chemicals you need to do these small experiments, observing the reactions will give you an understanding words or videos cannot, study the forum the safety section and dealing with waste, study the processes that interest you learn all you can about them, basically get a good understanding and knowledge of what you need and why, get a good grasp on the chemistry, and the safety.

Learn to recover gold and precious metals and refine them to high purity, not starting out trying things you understand very little about making big dangerous messes and standing there with a look of confusion, wondering where your gold went and what to do next.

This chemistry of metals is a complicated science, treat it as such, study and work as a chemist gaining an understanding by study small experiments and increasing your knowledge know what needs to be done before you do it, have a good idea of what to expect, and if things do not go as suspected (many times they will not), know why and what to do.

Forget about getting gold for the time being,(that will come in due time as you gain knowledge, understanding, and skill) work on gaining understanding knowledge and skill, then the gold will come easy, you will know how to handle it and any problem that comes your way, put your horse before the cart and you will go far, jumping in before will be a big mess.

just trying to help.
I look forward to you becoming a skilled workman in this art, it will take time to learn, but I will enjoy watching you grow, and look forward to seeing you help others learn from what you are learning, and if you work hard I bet you will be teaching me a few tricks.

Welcome to the forum. I am just trying to help you get started on the best path.


----------



## samuel-a

Very well said Butcher.


----------



## pedroADV

Dear butcher

At first, thank you for your advice. Now I know what do you want to tell me but i do not have time (years) to study. I want to do following this video step by step http://www.goldnscrap.com/index.php/scrap-cpu-a-chips/91-gold-recovery-process-from-ceramic-cpus-part-1 and of course part-2 ,too. The book is for my english really hard and i don´t believe that anyone who refining gold read it whole, but if you tell me what part is necessary, I read it. But whole book is for me unthinkable. I do not mean this in bad. I will be grateful for your next advice.


----------



## niteliteone

Here we go again :roll: :roll: :roll: 
Will the world ever run out of lazy people that refuse to learn for themselves, instead of expecting to have hard learned knowledge freely handed to them.

Send me a Bank Check for $5000.00 USD and I will send you step be step instructions in the language of your choice to refine whatever material you want. As soon as the check clears the bank I will send the step-by-step instructions.
Oh but you will still have to read them :shock:


----------



## Harold_V

The thing that troubles me in this instance is the notion that a person can pick a tiny bit of information and process without issue. He made it perfectly clear that he is willing to read a limited amount, that which pertains to his objective--but those are the words of the typical individual who assumes that refining is dead easy--that one must know next to nothing--it just happens when you hold your mouth just right and stand around looking good. 

PedroADV,
As you have been receiving guidance from our very capable moderator, Butcher, I will refrain from providing any. However, be advised that I take a very dim view of folks who come to this forum with the idea that they need do nothing, or very little, and can start raking in all that big money on free gold. It just doesn't work that way. 

Let me explain, hopefully in terms you can understand. 

Refining is but a small portion of this process. If you do not understand the basics, including safety issues, you will struggle, making huge mistakes along the way. These mistakes may harm you, or others, but the part that will annoy me is that you will come back to this forum time and again asking for information to solve the problems you'll face. The answers you would get will be no different from you reading the book that is recommended as a basic instructional manual --Hoke's book on Refining Precious Metal Wastes. Until you understand what that book teaches, you will have no end to questions, which will result in your being banned from the forum. 

We insist that you read that book. If you choose not to, please quietly leave the forum. We have grown weary from individuals who share your apparent mindset. 

Harold


----------



## pedroADV

niteliteone - look if you think that I am lazy, ok, but you don´t know me, you don´t know who I am and you don´t know what kind of problems I have and at last you don´t know why I trying to get help from you. I don´t want step by step instruction from anyone ! Cost for translating book is 6500 euro, but I don´t have it so send me a Bank Check for 6500 € and I will go to translate the book. I do not read the book because I do not understand it, not because I am lazy.

Harold_V : I don't think that the refining is easy ! I know that I need a book for refining but i don´t understand it so I ask the butcher for help to tell me which chapter is necessary for me. Because I don´t have much time and I don´t go explain why because is personal. If you still think that I am lazy, fool, individuals who share your apparent mindset, so you can ban me from the forum. Make your choice.

I did not want to offend anyone


----------



## niteliteone

pedroADV said:


> niteliteone - look if you think that I am lazy, ok, but you don´t know me, you don´t know who I am and you don´t know what kind of problems I have and at last you don´t know why I trying to get help from you. I don´t want step by step instruction from anyone ! Cost for translating book is 6500 euro, but I don´t have it so send me a Bank Check for 6500 € and I will go to translate the book. I do not read the book because I do not understand it, not because I am lazy.
> 
> Harold_V : I don't think that the refining is easy ! I know that I need a book for refining but i don´t understand it so I ask the butcher for help to tell me which chapter is necessary for me. Because I don´t have much time and I don´t go explain why because is personal. If you still think that I am lazy, fool, individuals who share your apparent mindset, so you can ban me from the forum. Make your choice.
> 
> I did not want to offend anyone


Pedro,
I did Not say I would translate the book, I said I would give you step-by-step instructions on how to fix your problem and I expect to be paid for my time.
Why do you expect people to give to you for free what we spent much time learning :?:


----------



## Esau Nisalile

Pedro,

If you understood what Burcher and Harold said then definitely you will umderstand

Hoke's book. It is written in simple english from which you will learn several aquintance experiments which will answer most of your questions. That way you will do things in a proper way I hope that serves
Good luck,
Esau.


----------



## solar_plasma

Pedro,

I don't know your background. If you are a chemist there might be some chapters, which are not new to you. But even most of the chemists have read the book, since it is full of practical knowlegde special to refining. The way you are asking I believe you have absolutely no relevant knowledge, so, I can easily say, which chapter is important to you to read and understand: All of them.

There is no shortcut, no red carpet. If you haven't got the time, forget this idea. No childish stamping the feet to the ground, no crying and no begging will change it. Chemistry is not an antiauthoritarian parent, that can be manipulated by the will of its child. Chemicals are unforgiving and deathly cold like the reeper himself. But do what you want, jump out into the white water, but don't expect anybody to help you in this foolish attempt.

Think over it. Many have done before and got all the help they needed.


----------



## pedroADV

nitelineone - at last, i don't want instruction from anyone ! do you understand this ?

Esau - thank you, really


----------



## niteliteone

pedroADV said:


> nitelineone - at last, i don't want instruction from anyone ! do you understand this ?
> 
> Esau - thank you, really


Funny that *IS* exactly what you are asking for from others. (ie. Butcher)


----------



## pedroADV

you are funny :lol:


----------



## niteliteone

pedroADV said:


> you are funny :lol:





> I do not read the book because I do not understand it, not because I am lazy.


Now that IS funny.
If you don't understand what Hokes book says, Their is NO way possible you will understand what anyone here explains to you. Almost everything you watched in Samuel's videos is well explained in Hokes book and you said earlier that you wanted to follow what Samuel did in the videos.

What type of processors are you planning to process ???
If you ONLY do ceramic processors, Samuel's videos will work. If you try to use this process on any other type of processor, (ie. green or black) you will have a lot of problems and probably loose your values.


----------



## pedroADV

I use only ceramic CPU.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

pedroADV said:


> Dear butcher
> 
> At first, thank you for your advice. Now I know what do you want to tell me but i do not have time (years) to study. I want to do following this video step by step http://www.goldnscrap.com/index.php/scrap-cpu-a-chips/91-gold-recovery-process-from-ceramic-cpus-part-1 and of course part-2 ,too. The book is for my english really hard and i don´t believe that anyone who refining gold read it whole, but if you tell me what part is necessary, I read it. But whole book is for me unthinkable. I do not mean this in bad. I will be grateful for your next advice.


pedro,

I am assuming that as you say, you are not lazy. I can understand that if English is not your first language, Hoke's book could indeed be difficult to translate and understand. While it is written in "simple English", most members here would likely struggle to understand it if it was written in simple Czech or simple Polish. So I can sympathize that the effort to translate the book is enormous. Unfortunately, it is still the best introduction to refining that has ever been written. English is my native language, so it's much easier for me. I have read the whole book at least 4 or 5 times now, and I learn more every time.

If you are very lucky, you *might* be able to process CPUs as shown in Sam's videos. But if you run into the slightest problem, you will not know what to do to fix the problem. This is why other members have told you you're likely to end up with a mess if you start any process without completely understanding it. Many have tried to refine based on watching a few videos. Few have been successful.

If you do not have years to study, I can think of several options:
1.) Find somewhere to sell whatever material you have; (there is a Sale or Trade section on this forum where you can list what you have)
2.) Have someone toll refine your material for you; (there are quite a few members who do this work)
3.) Hire someone to consult with you to guide you through the processes. (expect to spend a lot of money)

I have been a member here for close to 2 years. I have read every post on the forum, as well as Hoke's book and several others. I have done the getting acquainted exercises and processed some small batches, but I know there is still much for me to learn.

So if you need to convert your scrap to money in a short time, find a buyer for your material or find someone who will refine it for you. If you need to do this yourself, but you must do it quickly, you'll need to pay someone to teach you. If you can spend the time to study and learn these processes, this forum and Hoke's book will help you to achieve your goal.

I wish you the best of luck in whatever path you choose.
Dave


----------



## Harold_V

pedroADV said:


> Harold_V : I don't think that the refining is easy ! I know that I need a book for refining but i don´t understand it so I ask the butcher for help to tell me which chapter is necessary for me.


The point I tried to make is that ALL chapters are necessary. There are no shortcuts to learning to refine. If you avoid learning any of the processes, you'll hit a wall, as almost all of them are required in the course of refining. If you don't gain an understanding at the outset, even if you get answers to your *sure-to-come* questions, they may not make sense to you because you lack the badly needed basic understanding. 



> Because I don´t have much time and I don´t go explain why because is personal.


Then this hobby is not for you. It is very demanding of your time if you expect to make any progress. This isn't like a magazine you can pick up and peruse at your leisure. It takes serious dedication and constant attention, so you don't forget the things you learn. 



> If you still think that I am lazy, fool, individuals who share your apparent mindset, so you can ban me from the forum. Make your choice.


It has nothing to do with "my choice". It has everything to do with YOUR CHOICE. You can come here with the idea in mind that you will learn how to refine, following the guidelines we have established, knowing full well that anything less is too disruptive to the forum, or you can find a different place to hang out. If you post regularly, asking questions that reflect the FACT that you are unwilling to do any work on your own, you will be banned. We've made it abundantly clear that we do not cater to such individuals----that we fully expect that ANYONE who comes to this board with the idea in mind to learn how to refine will dedicate their time to learning the basics, so they can converse with those who have experience. If that's too much to ask, it wastes the time of those who try to help, as you can't learn by asking questions endlessly---no one will be willing to stay with you, holding your hand, telling you the very things you'll learn by reading Hoke's book, as well as the posts on the board. 



> I did not want to offend anyone


And yet you do it anyway. 

Get this straight. If you are unwilling to do your badly needed homework, you don't belong here. Even if it's hard for you to do, you MUST read the information that is at your disposal-----it is NO DIFFERENT from you asking questions---the answers to which you'd have to read, anyway. By doing the required reading, the number of (stupid) questions you'd ask will be reduced by a huge margin, and those you do ask will reflect the fact that you are trying to learn, but may be confused over a given passage. 

I strongly advise you to keep your attitude in check. I do not tolerate anyone with attitude. It displays the fact that the individual will be trouble--it's just a matter of when it comes to the fore. In such a case, I prefer to ban early, as that prevents strife on the board. 

So then, amigo, it's all about your choices. All I do is hit the keys. Make up your mind---you're willing to do your part, and read what has been advised, or you don't really want to learn how to refine, as it requires effort on your part. None of us are going to do the work for you. 

Harold


----------



## its-all-a-lie

pedroADV said:


> niteliteone -Cost for translating book is 6500 euro, but I don´t have it so send me a Bank Check for 6500 € and I will go to translate the book. I do not read the book because I do not understand it, not because I am lazy.



Here you can translate the book for FREE, there should be no excuse to not read Hoke from this point forward. http://translate.google.com/


----------



## Geo

this is your adventure, no one said it would be easy because if they did, they lied!!


----------



## evL

butcher said:


> Gold will not dissolve in HCL, but oxidized gold will form a gold salt with HCl (AuCl3).
> Nitric acid will not dissolve gold, but it can Oxidize the gold, (probably forming a passivated layer of oxidized gold just a guess here).
> When we add an oxidizer to the hydrochloric acid HCl, the oxidizer oxidizes the gold so that the HCl will form AuCl3 in solution.
> Nitric acid is only one strong oxidizer that is strong enough to oxidize gold, household bleach like you wash clothes in to get them white (sodium hypochlorite) is another, the bleach form chlorine gas in solution when mixed in acids, it is this chlorine gas that oxidizes the gold.
> Once gold is in solution (dissolved)we no longer need the oxidizer, in fact the oxidizer now will not let us get our gold back out of solution.
> Oxidized means the atom has a loss of electrons, reduced means to gain of electrons.
> When a gold atom lost its electron it is dissolved into solution, to get the gold back out of solution we must give it back all of its electrons so that it will fall out of solutions as many gold atoms (metal gold powder), as long as there is an oxidizer in solution like nitric acid we cannot give back the gold its electrons and make it into gold powder, because the nitric acid in solution keeps on taking the electrons away from the gold, so as long as there is an oxidizer like nitric acid or chlorine in solution we cannot reduce (give back electrons) our gold back to metal.
> When dissolving gold several things can help to make things work better for when you are later trying to get your gold back out of solution.
> Do not dissolve gold with base metals.
> Keep tin out of solution with gold.
> Use only the minimum amount of oxidizer needed to get the gold dissolved (using heat to help) and to also insure all of the oxidizer has reacted before adding more.




Reading that bit of information really put a giant smile on my face... Now that was one of the many "Ah-Ha" readings which I love finding. Thanks butcher, 

---


----------



## solar_plasma

This man "Sue" (page 1)...has he been on the forum under different names? I think his writing style, the subtile undertone of "now I tell you dumbs how things are done" remembers me to an other former or passive member.


> _
> I just had my lab assistant repeat your first experiment._





> _My assistants..._



...sounds very similarly....and both with semi-knowledged statements, as if they only have read a lot and never tried anything themselves. The same attitude of embracing their own ego, talking down to anybody else. ...well, maybe they are just soulmates... :roll:


----------



## motavi

So I got a batch of these chips with a supplier who can give me more.

1. How do I buy Hoke's book?
2. I paid USD$21.21 per chip - did I pay too much?
3. Apparently, with the bigger chip, it is possible to extract 1 gram of gold - so I am told...
4. I'm getting a whole bunch of laptops coming in, how do I work out how much gold can be extracted?

Appreciate any help 

Thanks!


----------



## FrugalRefiner

You don't need to buy Hoke's book. You'll find links to both a screen readable copy and a printer friendly version in my signature line below.

Dave


----------



## samuel-a

motavi said:


> 2. I paid USD$21.21 per chip - did I pay too much?
> 3. Apparently, with the bigger chip, it is possible to extract 1 gram of gold - so I am told...
> 4. I'm getting a whole bunch of laptops coming in, how do I work out how much gold can be extracted?



2. You paid appx. twice as much as the actual gold content.
3. Pentium pro's does not have 1 gram of gold each
4. from which part/components of the laptop? 

Look at the file in my signiture line, i have compiled a (very) short but accurate list of cpu's yields.


----------



## motavi

Thanks for the link to the book, Dave! Going to go through it.

samuel-a : Thanks for the link, will check that out.

We are getting the whole laptop and have to dismantle it ourselves


----------



## Max1001

Hello guys, sorry if I do not speak English well but I'm using a translator.
  I have read the forum congratulations to all, I wanted to ask if anyone has updated data on the returns of gold of various CPU.

Thank you in advance for your answers


----------



## Richard NL

its-all-a-lie said:


> Here you can translate the book for FREE, there should be no excuse to not read Hoke from this point forward. http://translate.google.com/


You can translate the words from the book into your language,that is what it does.
But we are dealing with chemicals, correct procedure, potentially dangerous things end so on....
English is not my native language.
I have tried it and it does not work.
Spelling mistakes is what you're looking for, and and asking yourself what does she mean by.... ,instead of learning the book.
It translates most of the words correctly, and makes a mess of the combinations words.
There is a solution:learning and Google.
The reading goes easy for me in English, the writing is difficult for my.
9 Sentences 1 hour 50 minutes.





Best regards, Richard.


----------



## ChemGeek

Recently I have bought a lot of ceramic processors.
For 1.7kg of them I have paid $70. Substantial majority is AMD K5, AMD Duron, some Pentiums 133MHz.

Between these processors are few unsual ones. They seem older than those I am used to.
They are *white* ceramics with aluminum lid on the top and very nice pin free bottoms. Instead pins there are ring shaped contact surfaces.
I can read types of these processors.
They are different versions of IBM 93, also few versions of IBM 1614, american (US) and Canadian versions of HP processors like 1QK9-0009 and 1QK9-0008 and few others.
Does anyone of you knows estimate collection value and gold value of such processors?
I just ask because it would be silly to throw them to ball mill if someone wish to pay more than gold is worth and would like to preserve them.
I enclose 3 photos of these



I have also another querry:
Is it true that AMD K5 contain approximately 0.4g of Au each?
There are versions with gold plated lid on the bottom and with 2 gold plated lids.
Are these about the same in terms of Au content or the one with 2 lids contain more as one might naively assume.
Also, is it reasonable to hope that ceramic AMD Duron would yield 0.1g Au if processed properly?


----------



## anachronism

You can hope as much as you like but sadly it won't get you anywhere fast mate. 8) 8) 

To help - if it hasn't got a proper die with bonding wires then it's very low yield compared to a "cored" processor. 

Your Durons are not good and certainly nowhere near 0.1g each. They are MUCH lower. 

Hope that helps.

Jon


----------



## ChemGeek

@anachronism,
Thanks for your comments.
Any ideas about white ceramic processors?


----------



## anachronism

ChemGeek said:


> @anachronism,
> Thanks for your comments.
> Any ideas about white ceramic processors?



Ive never processed them they are piling up here. My guess- and it's a guess is that they are similarly low because they do not have a die. That given take this as supposition please. 

Jon


----------



## ChemGeek

Thanks,
Have submitted few for auction on e-bay. Will see what will come out of that.


----------

