# Skyray XRF Analyzer



## RAB3Group (Jun 17, 2012)

does anyone know about these products? They seem very good. I am looking a the handheld P930 model. Anyone know about the cost for these machines?


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## jimdoc (Jun 17, 2012)

RAB3Group said:


> does anyone know about these products? They seem very good. I am looking a the handheld P930 model. Anyone know about the cost for these machines?




Did you check search results?

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=skyray+xrf&terms=all&author=&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 17, 2012)

What are you using it for?

If you are shooting HMS 1 and 2 then your handheld makes tons of sense to me. But it's calibrated for either HMS scrap, or precious metal scrap.

I have been reading about these for the past several months, the technology fascinates me. I'm a huge fan of the Niton XRF scanners as for my purposes, they would seem the best choice.

HOWEVER

I was thinking about this. A brand new decked out Niton XRF, that detects and differentiates gold plating is right around $30,000. I had to stop and think about it this way. If I am going to purchase $30,000 worth of scrap to justify loading the handheld in my car, and driving it out to wherever the precious metals to be tested are? The answer is honestly, no. If I am going to purchase something so expensive it could justify the cost of dragging out an expensive piece of equipment, I am going to want it fire assayed, not shot with an XRF that only detects to a certain depth.

Here is an interesting article on gold bars with tungsten cores:

http://www.mining.com/2012/03/26/gold-bar-with-tungsten-core-found-in-uk/

An XRF scanner isn't going to protect you from this...

So really to answer your question you would need to provide more information. What is your intended use, what is your estimated gross/net profit, does it justify purchasing an expensive piece of equipment that needs costly consumables?

Scott


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## RAB3Group (Jun 17, 2012)

WOW, $30K for one? No, I am just looking for something that is portable for picking up old scrap jewelry.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 17, 2012)

RAB3Group said:


> WOW, $30K for one? No, I am just looking for something that is portable for picking up old scrap jewelry.



Honestly, that is for a top of the line Niton, it uses a isotope-based method instead of a x-ray tube. I believe it's the only one on the market that does. I take material that I want to check to a guy I know that uses one of these models, he uses it in his business and doesn't do this type of thing for the general public, I process some material for him, small amounts, and he allows me to test whatever I bring in. He also has a counter top model, and uses this more often than the hand held, it's more accurate, it takes a little longer to get results but it does a deeper scan.

I regularly watch eBay, and I have a few buy requests out there in cyber land at really low prices, so I don't plan on getting any responses, anytime soon. But it's good to watch just in case, I came across two fume hoods for $100 each that way.

Lab X is sometimes a good place to find equipment like this, once in a great while you can get a good price. I picked up a couple 22L round bottom flasks/reaction vessels cheap on Lab X. Here is the site:

http://www.labx.com/

I also regularly watch eBay, there are a few up right now ranging from $1,999 - 29,999 with most of the less expensive hand held units meant for testing lead in paint. If you do buy a used XRF scanner, make sure it's intended for your purposes. Testing for HMS metals is totally different than testing for precious metals for example.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=XRF&_sop=16

Also you can check sites that sell Government surplus

http://www.govliquidation.com/

http://www.govdeals.com/

Or corporate liquidation sites like this one:

http://www.networkintl.com/

Another way you might find one at a good price, is doing this...

I called Thermo Scientific, the people who make the XRF scanner I like. I asked them if they had any references of customers who purchase more than 5 unites so that I can ask them about the XRF scanner, and if they had any large customers whom I would recognize as being industry leaders, etc. I wasn't so much interested in the references as I was about who they were. I found out that the EPA purchases XRF scanners on a regular basis for everything from soil analysis to buildings paint and building materials, etc. They do use the precious metal XRF scanners, for what I have no idea. I harassed the EPA and got the information on which sites they liquidate their XRF scanners on, and I watch them now. I also called a few other companies and spoke with their asset recovery department so that I will be contacted when they liquidate their older units.

Here is the website for the EPA Gov Auctions:

http://gsa.gov/portal/category/21184

I check this places and a few others, on a regular basis. If you do end up finding one that fits your needs, don't feel bad about grabbing it if the price is right. I don't plan on purchasing one anytime soon, unless a super deal pops up.

Scott


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## Lou (Jun 17, 2012)

Scott, 

A top of the line Niton is about 38K out the door--it does not use an isotope for X-ray generation. It's really useful for sorting anodes, finding out what if anything is left in a filter cake, and...that's about it. Good for sorting alloys and looking for RCRA stuff. Aside from that, not too many applications.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 17, 2012)

Lou said:


> Scott,
> 
> A top of the line Niton is about 38K out the door--it does not use an isotope for X-ray generation. It's really useful for sorting anodes, finding out what if anything is left in a filter cake, and...that's about it. Good for sorting alloys and looking for RCRA stuff. Aside from that, not too many applications.



Hey Lou,

I think what I was talking about was a little misleading, I should have said "used" and not new.

The XRF scanner that Niton makes, which I am interested in if I find one at a totally off the wall price, is this one.

http://www.niton.com/Niton-Analyzers-Products/xl3/xl3p.aspx?sflang=en



> Direct benefits to you include shorter analysis times and a lower cost of ownership in an isotope-based instrument.



EDITED:


> We are the only manufacturer to offer both isotope-based and x-ray tube-based XRF analyzers for alloy analysis.



It is suppose to be the only hand held XRF scanner that uses a isotope-based system, I might be wrong about that, but it was my understanding that nobody else has made a hand held XRF scanner that doesn't you an XRF tube. The reason I was interested in this one, was because I wouldn't have to replace the tubes, which I imagine will add up if it's used to sort scrap.

I think though that if I do purchase an XRF analyzer, that I will get a benchtop or standalone.

The re-marketer I have been buying equipment from has an electron microscope, hahaha, you cannot even imagine what I was thinking. When it comes to these types of toys, i want them all but I have to really stop and think just how much use I will actually get out of it for the cost. I just simply don't have a good enough reason as of yet, but boy do I want one.

Scott


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## Lou (Jun 18, 2012)

I've got two SEM if you want to buy one, I'll make you a deal.
We use them for analyzing parts that we've cleaned or that we put coatings onto.

As far as the source goes--I'll stick with the battery. I travel sometimes with the XLT3 and the fact that it is battery powered is much better if you leave the country; you don't want to be going through customs with that instrument, the normal one is bad enough at the security checkpoints!


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 18, 2012)

Lou said:


> I've got two SEM if you want to buy one, I'll make you a deal.
> We use them for analyzing parts that we've cleaned or that we put coatings onto.
> 
> As far as the source goes--I'll stick with the battery. I travel sometimes with the XLT3 and the fact that it is battery powered is much better if you leave the country; you don't want to be going through customs with that instrument, the normal one is bad enough at the security checkpoints!



SEM = Scanning Electron Microscope?

Okay, I'll bite, what does a piece of equipment like that sell for used? And are you going to provide training on how to use it? hahaha... No seriously... :mrgreen: 

My Mom is retired, I was thinking about setting her up in a small store front, with an XRF scanner as a service to the public. There are a few places like that around, it seems like it could be a good way to drum up business as well. So the XRF would pay for the monthly equipment lease, and I could still use it for my own purposes, and my Mom would have something to keep her busy. Of course this is just me thinking out loud, I'm actually really focused on expanding my capacity to process and assay other material.

Scott


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## Lou (Jun 18, 2012)

No idea what it sells for used. Technically, they belong to a chemist who works for me.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 18, 2012)

I swear Lou, you have all the coolest toys. I bet for you, going to work would be a bit like the Disneyland of metallurgy.

Scott


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## Dan Dement (Jun 18, 2012)

Scott,

If you are talking about Gold Buying, the Skyray's are great machines. I have my fourth one on Order with a Alloy package. I buy the countertop machines and they are pretty darn accurate. Understand, the Xrf are only as accurate as your standards and the Quickshots come pretty well ready to go. We have a great used loaner machine that is a little over $20,000 that would be perfect for what you want. The handhelds have a limited lifespans so I stick with the counter top machine. I am on vacation and replying on my IPhone so I will not get longwinded. It happy to talk to you if you want more info. Send me a Pm and I will give you my cell.

Thanks,


Dan Dement


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 18, 2012)

Dan,

I cannot even afford to pay attention to the price you quoted for a used desktop model. I hope I don't give people the wrong impression about me on this forum. I am not a huge operation, it's only me, and I am still working out of my garage, I haven't found the right building to move into yet, but I'm ready to.

I have been making enough to support my family, pay my bills, and invest back into the business so that I can grow it without taking out a business loan. I wanted to prove my business model and build up assets before I thought about taking out a loan, so for the time being my purchasing power is limited to what I generate by selling refined Au. I haven't even grown to the point where I am refining any PGM's, I just simply retain any I recover until I am able to do so.

Although I am not at the point currently where I could afford to even lease a piece of equipment like yours, I plan on purchasing or leasing one when funding allows, without putting me at risk of not being liquid enough to continue operating without concerns of the monetary type.

I'll send you a PM in any case. And thank you for the post!

Scott


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## 10wt_Percent (Jun 26, 2012)

Pretty good Wiki treatment on things XRF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-dispersive_X-ray_spectroscopy


and find herewith a good training manual-intro to Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy .. lots of fun facts and figures (pdf).

http://www.charfac.umn.edu/instruments/eds_on_sem_primer.pdf


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## 10wt_Percent (Jun 27, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemental_mapping


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 27, 2012)

10W,

The next time you post, please leave the text at the normal size. When you make it larger, it's like you're screaming and is annoying, at least to me. I have edited your 2 posts.

The Management


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## GoldBiter (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi All,

I decided to chime in since there is a disturbing amount of misinformation related to XRF equipment. For full disclosure, I work for Thermo Fisher Scientific (http://www.thermoscientific.com) and we are the world's largest manufacturer of analytical equipment. This includes high-end laboratory XRF systems as well as portable XRF systems that include handheld analyzers. Regardless of the type and who manufactures the systems (there are a number of very good manufacturers out there), there are a few truths that need to be told, as well as questions you should ask the manufacturer and yourself. I'll try to summarize the important points below:

1. *What are you trying to measure?* This seems like a simple question, but it has a number of implications. If you are a mining operation and you need to find 20ppm of gold in rocks, then you need a very specific instrument designed for this application. However, if you are a refiner and/or jeweler and you want a fast way to look for high percentages of gold, silver platinum, palladium, etc. in solid metal, then this is a much easier application.

2. *How is the instrument calibrated?* For the most part XRF instruments are only as accurate as their calibrations. There are other aspects such as the x-ray tube and detector technology, but the calibration technique is vital to accurate analyses. _"Empirical"_ type calibrations are excellent, but usually require the user to build libraries of known standards. These known standards should be certified on the entire elemental makeup ... e.g. gold, silver, copper, zinc, nickel, etc. since all the elements will affect the accuracy of the measurement and must be accounted for in the calibration. Obviously collection of these standards to fine-tune the calibration is time consuming and very costly, but worthwhile in laboratories that have the time and resources to commit to this exercise. Often an instrument may come with pre-loaded libraries, but these are limited in scope and will create significant accuracy problems when analyzing samples that fall out of range of the library. _"Fundamental Parameters"_ or _"FP"_ on the other hand is a standardless calibration that comes out of the factory ready to go. As long as the elements are accounted for in the FP, accuracy should be very good. However, there are some excellent and some not-so-great FP systems out there, so test the accuracy and judge for yourself. A robust FP is the core of a good user friendly and accurate XRF system.

3. *The life of an XRF system is not dictated by the form factor.* When treated well, a handheld analyzer will last just as long as any laboratory instrument. The parts of the instrument that will eventually fail are identical: the x-ray source (tube or isotope) and detector. There are some isotope systems than may not need replenishing since their half-life can be very long, but all x-ray tubes will eventually burn out. However, x-ray tubes are generally more desirable due to licensing and other regulations that vary depending on your country/region.

4. *How do you want to use it?* Again a simple question with big implications. Benchtop analyzers offer the user a closed-beam x-ray system that is stationary, and can sometimes be relatively easy to use depending on the model and manufacturer. Portable or handheld analyzers may be a good choice if you want to analyzer large or bulky objects or need to transport it somewhere for a remote analysis outside of the lab. Take a close look at your operations and determine all areas in which you could make use of XRF, then decide if a stationary or portable XRF system fits you better. Handheld systems can often easily be transformed into stationary benchtop systems with the addition of a test stand, so simply ask the manufacturer about options.

5. *Service and support.* Choose a well-established and reputable company because one day you will likely need some level of service and support. Ask where this is done and how quickly can you get a response. What is the cost of service and what warranties are offered? Also make sure they provide free training for you and your staff. You are making an important investment, so proper training is absolutely essential.

6. *Ease of use.* This can only be judged by you. Are you comfortable enough to use it every day with confidence you are getting accurate results? Is the interface intuitive and are the results displayed quickly and intelligently? 

7. *Budget.* You can enter into low-cost XRF systems for as low as $10,000 US, and spend well north of $100,000. However, excellent user friendly systems can be found in the range of $20,000 - $40,000 (give or take a few $1k) that are very well suited for most precious metal refining, recycling and manufacturing operations. There are huge differences when comparing systems, so just make sure you are making the right comparisons on the technology; i.e. x-ray source (tube power, isotope source, etc.), detector (prop counter vs. Si-PIN vs. SDD), calibrations offered (empirical, FP, and your responsibility on calibration), elements detected, warranties, support, brand reputation, etc.

In summary, XRF is becoming a more and more important tool in precious metals refining, recycling and manufacturing operations. While it is expensive, the cost of operating without such an instrument more often than not significantly outweighs the investment expense. I'm happy to answer any questions and will try my best to give a non-biased opinion based on your questions and needs.

Best regards,

Jeff


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 24, 2012)

Okay Jeff I have a question for you,

What do you price used equipment at? And if you sell used equipment, do you replace the tube, or charge differently according to how many hours are on the unit?

Scott


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## GoldBiter (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi Scott,

We do sell factory refurbished instruments. We check them out, replace anything that needs to be replaced and include a new warranty. Price would depend on the age of the unit, as well as the model type. Benefit is that you are getting an instrument for much lower cost than a new one, but the drawback is that it might not have the most up-to-date technology and might not last as long once the warranty expires.

I caution anyone trying to buy instruments on-line such as Alibaba. Many many people have been scammed as a result. Please go direct to the manufacturer or through their distributors to ensure you are getting a good quality instrument that will be supported.

Jeff


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