# Mordern Boards/cpus



## LaurenceOs (Jun 8, 2009)

I have a number of modernish boards laying around, motherboards with fancy chipsets, graphics cards and hard drives.. I cant remember where but i remember someone telling me that modern boards have little or no PM, after looking at the contacts they did seem rather coppery.. (they're msi and asus mobos, nvidea and radeon gfx cards)

Also, being yet another newbie, lose the plot a bit with all the acronyms used. Obvisously anyone remembers au ag pt pd from school but what is AP or AR process?
Feel free to post any others that i may need to know.

Cheers guys, brilliant forum, i was glued last night 

Laurence


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 8, 2009)

Also credit cards chips... i have a number of credit cards laying around with chip and pin thinggy, anything on them?


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## leavemealone (Jun 8, 2009)

Good morning laurence and welcome.
Let me start by saying that almost any answer you will need,is found somewhere on the forum.If you intend on trying to process the material yourself then I highly suggest you spend a lot of time reading the forum before you start.If you do decide to dive into the adventure just let us know and we can help steer you into the right direction.
Now onto your questions,first about the boards,almost every board made has some kind of PM(precious metal) in it.And you're right the newer ones normally have less than the older ones.If it is used in a computer,chances are one of us on the forum can recycle it,and recover and metals used.As far as AR and AP....both are liquid solutions that we use to turn certain solid metals into liquids,its called digesting or dissolving.AR stands for aqua regia and its a mixture of muratic and nitric acids,AP stands for acid peroxide and is a mix of muratic acid and hydrogen peroxide.
Like I said if you plan on trying this,spend a LOT of time(days if not weeks) reading and absorbing information first before even trying to get what you need.You can waste a rediculous amount of time and money if you don't know what you are doing first.Knowledge is the key.I hope this helped.
Johnny


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 8, 2009)

Yeah i intend to, im just gonna stockpile all potential materials with precious metals untill i've learnt enough.

What about mobile phone SIM cards, the chip contacts are yellow and shiny but before trying to test them i thought i'd ask you guys


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## leavemealone (Jun 8, 2009)

Yes they are gold plated.


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 8, 2009)

Sweet i've got loads of them, and i just pulled apart a friends old nokia 7600 and it seemed to be a miniature gold mine, should i Post pics of these boards to see what you think?


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## leavemealone (Jun 8, 2009)

Everyone here loves to see pics of material,so yes if you can get some pics together throw them on here and let us all take a look at them.
Thanks,
Johnny


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 8, 2009)

Heres what I found. You can imagine i got excited but it didnt wanna get to excited without asking for your opinions.

What do you think?


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## leavemealone (Jun 8, 2009)

Pretty nice,but unfortunately they are low grade(plating is very thin).It would take several hundred pounds to make a single ounce of gold,and they are a pain to clean up.
Johnny


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## lazersteve (Jun 8, 2009)

Laurence,

Welcome to the forum,

If you follow the Guided Tour Link in my signature line it will help you learn some of the basics.

The forum recently moved so a few of the links still need to be patched up, especially in the rough guide to the forum. I'll fix them when I find some extra time.

Steve


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 8, 2009)

ok ta chaps, but what about the battery connecters in phones, surely they use a thicker plating?


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 8, 2009)

All the links in the guided tour just go to search bar, and even how to make nitric acid is too common words apparently...


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## qst42know (Jun 8, 2009)

The majority of recipes are here from the early days before I found the forum.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2887935/GOLD-REFINING-FORUM-HANBOOK-VOL-1


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## nicknitro (Jun 9, 2009)

Laurence,

Welcome aboard, you have gotten some great advice from the masters. I wish I had learned about the forum before I got started refining. I got some bad advice from Ebayers, and my first few batches turned into peat bogs. LOL

LeavemeAlone, 

Great advice, and very well posted, I think you should be a moderator. You have the patience, and excellent morale to deal with newbie issues. Well done Johnny.

Good Luck All,
Nick


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 9, 2009)

hahaha  are my questions that tedious? i'll read


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 9, 2009)

leavemealone said:


> and they are a pain to clean up.
> Johnny


How so? surely it is dissolved and seperated like any other scraps? 
Again if this is another stupid question please bare with me, i am still learning :S


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## leavemealone (Jun 9, 2009)

> I think you should be a moderator


Thanks nick, I wish.....god knows Im on here enough.But I am grateful enough to just be able to help.It wasnt too long ago that I was right where he is and I am glad that I recieved the help I did to get me where I am now,and its a pleasure to be able to give something back.Thanks again for the kind words.


> leavemealone wrote:
> and they are a pain to clean up.
> Johnny
> 
> ...



Those particular boards(and almost all cell boards)are loaded with adhesives and soft plastics.The adhesives can dissolve in your AP and turn into a "gummy" material that the gold flakes tend to adhere to.It is a HUGE pain trying to get them back.And the soft plastics will dissolve or partially dissolve in AC and create a filtering problem.A good way around both of these problems is to take tin snips and cut the visible gold plated material away from everything else,DO NOT discard the leftovers,put them in a container and save them for later.Take your visible gold pieces and soak them in the same solution(discussed on another thread)used for removing masking.It is very tedious,time consuming,and not very rewarding financially,but if you definitely want to process them that is what you will need to do.
And no your questions are not tedious,it shows your desire to learn. 8) 
Johnny


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 9, 2009)

Ok brill, im learning fast here. 

Theres one video on youtube that shows a company that does the normal stuff for cpus but for the boards the just incinerate the lot and then melt off the metals for seperation. Perhaps we could do something similar to tackle the problems of adhesives and the like... what do you think?

Also my local plumbers merchants are selling 5 litres 32% hydrochloric acid for £9.50 ($15.46usd)... is this the strength i will need and is it a good price? Also where can nitric acid be found if you're not buying off the net?

The more i learn the more questions i have, its a little annoying lol i wish i had one of you guys infront of me so i could pick your brains.

Thanks for the help!

Laurence


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## leavemealone (Jun 9, 2009)

The price on that muratic is pretty high,but thats based on prices here in the states.I wouldnt know what an "average" price would be over the pond.However if you find its a decent price then definitely get it,it is exactly what we all use over here.I wouldnt know where to send you for the nitric.Are you not able to get it online or is it that you are not allowed to purchase it from over there?You can purchase Sodium nitrate from ebay and use concentrated sulfuric acid to make your own nitric(or a very close relative of it).

Chances are the video you saw was from a friend of ours here on the forum.

Any more questions.......just ask.
Johnny


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## qst42know (Jun 9, 2009)

LaurenceOs said:


> Theres one video on youtube that shows a company that does the normal stuff for cpus but for the boards the just incinerate the lot and then melt off the metals for seperation. Perhaps we could do something similar to tackle the problems of adhesives and the like... what do you think?
> 
> Laurence




Incineration would do the job but lots of black sooty smoke full of a whole range of environmental toxins. 

Certain to bring the authorities to give you all kinds of problems.


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## Buzz (Jun 9, 2009)

Where abouts in the UK are you Laurence?

Buzz


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 9, 2009)

Hertfordshire, St Albans if you know it., you?

So guys, wheres the pay dirt? this forums called where to find scrap. and i dont really know. What are the best things to look for, im so into this now, its brill 

And i dont like buying off the net cos im an impatient person lol i want things now now now, but it seems the internet is the only way. What about SMB where can i find that?

Loz


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 9, 2009)

and just as an observation, we can search long and hard for old stuff, but modern stuff is available all the time, shouldn't we find a decent way to recover pm from modern boards? or is there a way that you guy know?


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## leavemealone (Jun 9, 2009)

laurence if this was really easy and fast,everyone would be doing it.A lot of people on here have recovered and refined as a profession for many years and now simply share their expertise with others.Most of us are just looking to make some extra money on the side,but a few do it on a very large scale.Most of us can't afford to do that,or live in areas where the sanctions are too high to do it on a larger scale.If you can get the material for free that is always best,I get material from virtually everywhere.I have spent countless weeks doing research on when and where to get material as inexpensive as I can(if not free).Most of the time I find many people will just give me their old compters,I probably have over a thousand cases out back.I dont process motherboards,so If I get into a financial bind,I strip about 100 pounds of boards and take them to a friend of mine that pays me for them.Most of the same people that you see on here got me started several years ago and I am a computer freak so research is super easy for me.Plus my best friend and I start the day off talking about what new ideas we've thought of and what new ways can we process faster.I feel sympathetic knowing that the gold bug has hit you so hard,so I emplore you to have patience....at least for just a little while.Information is a tool and if you try to recover or refine too soon you won't have the right tool(knowledge) and you'll be stuck,or worse you can cause a lot of unneccesary headaches for yourself.If you want to start accumulating chemicals that would be a good idea,you can start here http://www.chemistrystore.com/ .The shipping might be a bit much but its a place to start.Of course you can always buy smaller quantities on ebay.
Johnny


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## Buzz (Jun 10, 2009)

Hi Loz,

I'm In Wakefield, West Yorkshire.

I get my Chems from a local Cleaning Supplies company.
There will be something similar in your area, just look in Yellow pages for
Laundry supplies, janatorial supplies etc..

I pay approx £2 litre for 70% Nitric and 32% HCl.
You will find that UK couriers won't carry it so 
you will definately need to get it locally.

I've come to a deal with our local WEEE Recycling centre, whereby i will
recover and refine his scrap for a percentage of the gold.
Also, local schools have usually got piles of broken and unwanted
Computers sitting around.
Downside here is, they might want you to take the monitors aswell.
I still use eBay for scrap.
I picked up 25Kg of network cards for 99p a few weeks ago.
He wanted £25 for postage but he allowwd me to send my own courier round to 
collect them. Cost me £7.25. You can find the couriers on eBay too.

One peice of advice is to stay under the radar.
Envromental Health are getting twitchy in the UK.
When you start with the acids, start with small amounts until you get used
to the amounts of Fumes that are produced.
A giant toxic red cloud above your house isn't going to help!

I find it a fascinating hobby but haven't made any real money at it.
The labour involved with Escrap is way to much.
I won't be processing any more.

Regards
Buzz


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 10, 2009)

Brilliant thanks for the help.

Can anyone tell me what i should offer for dental scraps?


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

Thats a very hard question to answer.If you are talking about dental scraps on ebay...I wouldnt do that at all.There is so much competition that there is little or no profit margin at all.If you are referring to directly from dentists you will find that a most dentists these days do not do their own reconstructive work.Most do not handle PM's at all.If you do find companies that do the work,most of them already have places they sell to periodically.However,If you are lucky enough to find any that are relatively new then you may be able to get some sweeps cheap.But remember anyone that does that work is well aware of the costs of those materials,and most likely will not let them go for too cheap.
Johnny


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 10, 2009)

A refiners percentage thinggy then, harold? any suggestions?


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

Thats an idea,A lot of companies do that toffer to process the material for a fee,that way no matter how much is there you still make money.Then you could offer to buy the PM's for a percentage of spot price,making you even more money.
Johnny


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 10, 2009)

Its no wonder the refineries are crooked... ay


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

It all starts with lack of morals,and the lack of being accountable to others.
Johnny


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 10, 2009)

It's greed. When a refiner has a pile of your gold scrap sitting in front of him and he knows that you don't exactly know the value of the pile, he can soon rationalize and convince himself to take a little off the top, even though he is moral in all other aspects of his life.

Many of you understand that it's expensive to process PM scrap, if you consider all the labor, chemical costs, utilities, equipment, fume control, waste disposal, marketing, etc., etc., etc., that a real business has to consider. This is especially true with electronic scrap. Some refiners quote unrealistically low charges in order to get your business. They then steal off the top to cover their expenses and make a profit. Then, in order to be competitive with this refiner, a second refiner has to do the same thing. This happens not only with electronics but also with karat gold. 

In one of the refineries I owned, I found myself in this position but refused to succumb to it. I found that if I bought most of the scrap outright, instead of quoting fair charges and settling on a "refinery basis", I had a lot more business. I actually quit refining a couple of times and made and sold hand-carved, gold-leafed wooden signs. I love to refine but I hate the business end of it.


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 10, 2009)

well if you're doing it as a hobby and you're just stockpiling the result you could just see it as fun saving or investing, this is the way i want to look at it so i'm never too bothered. Thing is, i cant save. I have what i call consumer disease; if i have money it has to be spent. So this is ideal for me, im saving in a strange way, and doing something that seems so fun and interesting.


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## Harold_V (Jun 11, 2009)

LaurenceOs said:


> A refiners percentage thinggy then, harold? any suggestions?


Only that you should not get too deeply involved with e scrap. It is so labor intensive that your prospects of making a profit are not good. 

Refining on a small basis can work, and very well, but one must seek a source of high grade materials, so time spent is profitable. The notion that a person can make a good income handling e scrap by hand, sorting and clipping, is not realistic. 

Understand that I am not trying to discourage anyone from enjoying it as a hobby. I'm just trying to get readers to look realistically at the overwhelming amount of hand labor required to recover small amounts of value. Without the ability to incinerate and process in bulk, it is very doubtful anyone can make a living. It is for that reason that a great deal of e scrap is shipped to third world countries, where labor is miserably cheap. 

The very best possible source for the small refiner is from the jewelry manufacturing industry. I would encourage anyone that has a vision of refining commercially to pursue that avenue. There are many small operations begging for an honest refiner.

Harold


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## leavemealone (Jun 11, 2009)

I would give virtually anything to be able to afford to process and refine on a large scale.There is an old Tarmac plant that shut down about 1/2 mile from my home and it would be perfect to use.Its in an idustrial area and it sits on the railroad tracks.It already has some of the minimum neccesities to get started and I have enough material to keep me going for at least a couple of weeks.Oh well heres to dreaming(holds up coffee cup).
Johnny


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 11, 2009)

Harold, i was referring to the bag full of gold dental scraps my girlfriends boss has.. she works in a dentists in barnet and her boss has been collecting them up for years and in his words said he hopes he can rip someone off for them... In my opinion anyone buying it would know what they're talking about....

I wanna try and get him to let me refine it so i can keep a percentage.


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## nicknitro (Jun 12, 2009)

Laurence, 

Look into amalgams. Dental scraps? Do you mean like platinum foil, gold foil, etc, or do you mean like old gold/PGM teeth and such? I have heard it said on other posts, that mercury can be involved in many older dental amalgams. It is obviously toxic, and I'm not quite sure as to how to remove it, except for maybe a retort, and I would highly recommend you get someone like Harold's advice on daling with this, or other issues. 

On the other hand , dental scraps can have many PGMs as well, improveing the value of said scrap, but also complexing the refining processes. I wish you the best of luck.


Nick


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## Harold_V (Jun 12, 2009)

LaurenceOs said:


> Harold, i was referring to the bag full of gold dental scraps my girlfriends boss has.. she works in a dentists in barnet and her boss has been collecting them up for years and in his words said he hopes he can rip someone off for them... In my opinion anyone buying it would know what they're talking about....
> 
> I wanna try and get him to let me refine it so i can keep a percentage.



My apologies. I am so backed up right now that I am unable to dedicate the required amount of time to properly read the posts. 

That is an excellent source, but you must learn to walk before you can run. while the values in dental wastes can be the best there is, you must also have a considerable amount of knowledge in order to successfully process the material. As has already been mentioned, it's very possible it will be contaminated with mercury, which, here in the States, is no longer an asset, but a liability. 

If you can describe the material with some detail, I can provide some guidelines in how to process. From it you can expect to recover silver, gold, platinum and palladium. If you are successful in acquiring the material, it can be akin to hitting the lottery! 

Not too long before I sold my business, one of the elderly dentists in my area, a fellow model engine enthusiast, asked me to process a few vials of filings, although not his. One of his colleagues and close friends had died, so he was handling the material for the widow. The material was represented as silver waste, but I quickly discovered that what he had submitted was dental gold filings. The yield, as I recall, was something like 16 ounces, and a total surprise for not only him, but the widow. 

Those are days to be cherished! They are few and far between.

Harold


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## nicknitro (Jun 12, 2009)

Harold,

Great Story,

Question, do you ever sleep? LOL

Regards,
Nick


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## leavemealone (Jun 12, 2009)

> Question, do you ever sleep? LOL




Did I mention he is nocturnal....rofl.


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 14, 2009)

Cheers for the advice harold,

I've looked at a few different avenues for getting scrap, i phoned around 50 local dentist, they have always got a bloke that comes to pick it up. Should I do what you said Harold and try to beat him on price?

I phoned around 25 local school, they're all nice and would let me have their stuff but they've just not got much. Some said yeah come get it, which is dandy. Where else could i go for scrap. The dumps used to let you take what you want but now they dont let you have anything. 

Suggestions?


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## Harold_V (Jun 14, 2009)

LaurenceOs said:


> Cheers for the advice harold,
> 
> I've looked at a few different avenues for getting scrap, i phoned around 50 local dentist, they have always got a bloke that comes to pick it up. Should I do what you said Harold and try to beat him on price?


Very dangerous territory unless you have a firm understanding of the alloys in use. 

In 1980, when gold hit the then record high of $875 in Hong Kong, many of the providers introduced alloys that were low in values. To add to that problem, there is considerable use of high temperature alloys that have, from the standpoint of the home refiner, no values whatsoever. You could find yourself in a rather difficult position, having paid well beyond worth. 

While I processed a fair amount of dental waste in my many years, I processed only sparingly for dentists. Because they have an ongoing relationship with the major providers of metals, they have routinely recycled their wastes, at least for the most part. They may or may not get fair treatment, but many of them are satisfied with the status quo, and may not be amenable to anything new. I know that one of them that turned to me was much happier with his returns, but few appeared to have an interest. Likely comes with having a comfortable income and the (mistaken?) belief they are being treated well. 

To be perfectly honest, the best success I enjoyed came from manufacturing jewelers. They seemed to he in need, often hearing about me and gladly providing their wastes for processing. It's entirely possible that would not be the case today, although I strongly suspicion it would be. 

One of the problems with the increasing value of precious metals is the huge number of people that are drawn to the market, all intent on capitalizing on the envisioned wealth. That, of course, is generally not the outcome. It muddies the water for all, and spreads the material too thinly, so no one can make a living. That situation generally is self correcting, for as the values subside, the majority of these folks will leave the market, discouraged because the imagined overflow of money never materialized, and prospects have now been dashed. 

I witnessed that very thing in 1980, so I can only imagine it would be true today. Gold, then, retreated to less than $300, where it languished for a considerable period of time. I was actively refining and continued the course. Others simply walked away, never to return. Many years were to pass before gold made a recovery, as we all know. 

Bottom line---pursue manufacturing jewelers as your primary target. It is unlikely you will be successful with large corporations, most of whom have an established system, but the small consumer, the independent benchman that works in the local store isn't always well connected and often is being raped by the refiner due to his small volume. These are the people that are looking for better treatment, at least in my experience. 

One thing should become perfectly obvious to most folks. Dealing in the precious metal market is difficult. Unless one is willing to sacrifice their values for under spot, there isn't a ready market unless you become recognized as a refiner. I had no problems selling gold for spot when I refined, but my absence from the market for years has not become troublesome. The only way I can see to liquidate my holdings will be to make contact with my old customers, many of whom are hundreds of miles distant. 

Marketing the platinum group of metals can be difficult unless a close relationship can be developed with one of the major refiners. The volume is low as compared to gold, and making new alloys isn't within the ability of the average home refiner, so liquidating is the only rational conclusion one can draw. Without a connection, is it not only difficult, but generally at a considerable loss. Two of the metals, palladium and platinum, are routinely found in dental alloys, so the concern is valid. Here in the States, Lou is likely able to provide a source that might make purchases at a respectable margin, but that may or may not be useful for you in the UK. 

Lots of problems associated with refining, it appears! :roll: 

One thing that may be of interest. While my refining venture was overwhelmingly successful, it was not by design. Were I had intentions of refining commercially, my operation would have failed miserably. I started my attempts at refining in the early 70's. It was strictly a hobby, and never intended to be a business. Only after the easing of gold regulations did others seek my services, and then only rarely. I often went without work for a few months, but word of mouth provided the odd new customer, to the point where I had work in-house on a regular basis. It was 1984 when the work load was adequate to make a living. 

The intended message is that success may not come readily. It didn't for me, although I do not consider my case representative of others. YMMV! 

Harold


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 14, 2009)

Yeah, I'd like to keep it as a hobby but still i'd like to be dealing with more than just a few grams...

Dont manufacturing jewlers refine themselves?


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## Harold_V (Jun 15, 2009)

LaurenceOs said:


> Yeah, I'd like to keep it as a hobby but still i'd like to be dealing with more than just a few grams...
> 
> Dont manufacturing jewlers refine themselves?


They don't normally require refining----they're usually pretty fine just the way they are!

(Just having a little fun, Laurence)

No. It is rare to find a jeweler that refines his own gold, although not unheard of. One of my old customers now refines his own gold, but he also has a place in which to do the work. 

A person serious about refining will create a corrosive atmosphere in the work place, one that is very destructive of the fine tools and instruments of the jeweler. 

The problem with refining one's own materials is the time involved, plus the inability to deal with all of the values. Even the jeweler's bench yields some platinum and palladium. To not effect a recovery makes no sense, and allowing solutions to languish for eons makes no senses, either. Storing any kind of waste material that has been subject to acids is a sure recipe for a corrosive atmosphere. For that reason, anything that is to be kept should be incinerated, with the ashes stored. That yields two benefits---one of which is a smaller amount of material to be stored---the other is that it is no longer corrosive. 

A certain amount of equipment becomes a necessity if you intend to refine. A fume hood, for example, is not a luxury, it is a requirement. One can not hope for the prevailing wind to blow in the proper direction, or to blow at all. One must be able to process on demand. One must also be able to deal with full strength acids, assuming refining is a full time job, not a hobby. 

I have the utmost respect for the work-arounds that have been developed and promoted on this forum. They work, and very well---but one does not have the luxury of waiting for a few weeks while a process that is totally effective, but slow as molasses, to conclude. Acids in desired concentrations (or dilutions, as the case may be) are mandatory, as is a fume hood and a hot plate. There is a marked difference between a guy trying to make a living, and a guy that is having a good time recovering bits of values. 

Start out small, with rudimentary equipment. As your demands warrant, you will expand. I did that very thing, and had no regrets. The very first item I added, aside from the basic lab ware and hot plate, was a very poorly thought-out fume hood, which nearly cost me my home due to a fire. My attitude about a hood is far different from that of almost all others here----a hood, in order to be effective, should be able to be used for incineration----which is just as important as the chemical processing one does. My first one was made of fiber glass. Do NOT make that mistake. 

The most important and valuable asset you can acquire is the knowledge to refine. Makes no difference how much metal you have at your disposal if you don't have a clue. It is for that reason that I have endlessly harped on Hoke's book. From it, you can learn to process values by methods that are _*reliable!*_ They work, and every time. There is no guesswork---it is all spelled out for you in clear, concise English. The only concern with the book is the promotion of less than safe methods, such as using gasoline (petrol) for incineration. One must remember, the book is a product of its time-----people were somewhat more stupid (perhaps I should be charitable and say they were less concerned?) back then, for lack of better description. 

Today, while I was toiling on the house I'm building, I was thinking about the advice I try to dispense here. A thought struck me. One should be chary of giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it. 

I really should learn to close my mouth! :lol: 

Harold


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## Oz (Jun 15, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> Today, while I was toiling on the house I'm building, I was thinking about the advice I try to dispense here. A thought struck me. One should be chary of giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.
> 
> I really should learn to close my mouth! :lol:
> Harold



I have sought your advice on several occasions and hopefully you feel I take said advice to heart. If I did not value your opinion I would not ask.

I understand your comment that I quoted above but in reply I will keep it simple and address just one aspect of your postings “safety”. 

You often post when you see that someone is pursuing a course of action that will cause them physical harm or a significant financial loss through a procedure. I agree wholeheartedly that many will plow through what is written on the forum or ignore advice that does not meet what they wish to hear and proceed blindly. However what has been written on this forum by those with great experience in trying to advise others is there for those with foresight to read if they wish to exercise due diligence. For those that lack that patience or go through life thinking no one could know better than themselves while at the same time asking for help, there is a little law of nature that corrects that imbalance. It is called natural selection. 

What you have written on this forum will survive you even if the internet ended today. You have made a fundamental change in others lives if they have the wisdom to listen to you and others here with a lifetime of experience to share. Oddly enough much of this knowledge has little to do with refining.


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## qst42know (Jun 15, 2009)

You can advise me any time Harold.

I like to think I'm somewhere in between those two extremes. Though some might think the jury's still out on that one. :lol:


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## glorycloud (Jun 15, 2009)

Post on Harold, post on! 8) 

Your sage words are greatly needed! If folks read and do not heed, well .................
that is their own fault. 

Thanks again for all who make this a great forum where ideas are exchanged and 
helpful words and tips are all too often taken for granted!!


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 16, 2009)

I spose i'd better go and buy the hoke book then


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 16, 2009)

Whats it called again? lol


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 16, 2009)

You can download the Hoke book free if someone will put on the link.

I found it near the bottom of this thread
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4685

Here's the link. I tried it and it works
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2480


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 16, 2009)

Oh brill, cheers.


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