# Does anyone make a profit refining gold?



## danny987 (Jul 29, 2008)

If you do where do you get your gold? Do you mine it? Electronic scrap?


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## Harold_V (Jul 29, 2008)

I made a living for more than ten years, working strictly as a refiner, all with information from Hoke's book, plus research on processes that went beyond what she teaches. 

You can make a living on refining, but you must address, at the bare minimum, the refining of silver, gold, platinum and palladium. They are all common to many alloys, both in jewelry and dentistry. You would be well advised to be able to retort mercury as well, assuming you received wastes from a dentist. 

The big problem is gaining the confidence of these people. To approach them while you are in the learning phase of refining can prove to be a costly mistake when you accept their material and blow it by not recovering the values completely, or by providing end product that is not up to standards. If you gain a bad reputation at first, you likely will never be able to overcome the ramifications. 

My advice is to learn refining well, then promote your skills. The best chance of making a profit is refining for jewelry manufacturers, who have an ongoing need for pure gold and silver, and generate considerable waste material. They not only become a source of material to process, but buyers of the end product as well. It's a closed loop that makes you a valuable asset to them, assuming you remain honest and do good work. Providing a jeweler gold that is contaminated can result in rejected castings and end up costing both you and the jeweler. You must be able to provide quality products if you expect to get and keep their business. 

While I always encourage folks to process e scrap, the chance of making a living is slim, unless you can process in large volume, with minimal handling. The chance of doing so on a hobby basis is not good. 

Harold


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## danny987 (Jul 29, 2008)

great post. My intrest in refining is 50% hobby and 50% for profit. So far right now im thinking sources are E-scrap, placer gold, scrap jewelery (never know what you could find at a garage sale), and i also have dentist in the family.


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## Harold_V (Jul 29, 2008)

Capitalize on the dentist(s?). When you can process dental alloys with success, recovering all of the valuable elements, you will be able to process almost anything that comes along. Start with small lots, just a few dwts at a time. Read Hoke, and do as you're told. In the end, it will all be routine. 

Your chance of making a living processing placer is not good. Anyone that recovers it in quantity will likely seek a large outlet to covert to cash quickly. It comes along, but not enough to make a living. If you rely on finding your own, it won't take you long to understand why it sells for more than $900/oz. Your very best chance of success is processing for the jewelry trade, bar none. 

Harold


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## sawmill (Jul 30, 2008)

Harold is right on the placer gold.
The killer for a small refiner is not being able to certify and
stamp bullion or your end product. Also you would have to have
a heck of a bank account to buy customers gold.
Miners either want a certified product returned,or cash. They
don't want a product that has to be assayed before a real gold
buyer will touch it.


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 31, 2008)

Dental gold. Buffing dust, floor sweeps, filings, carpets, traps, etc. from jewelry mfgrs. and dental labs. Several types of scrap from platers. PM pastes and solder. All sorts of scrap from certain jet engines. Certain types of electronic scrap.

Almost any type of silver scrap.

If you sell to knowledgeable people, they'll recognize pure gold when they see it.


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## viacin (Oct 2, 2008)

"The killer for a small refiner is not being able to certify and 
stamp bullion or your end product." 

Really?? Even if you have assay equiptment? Geez that's a total bummer, cuz no one wants to buy bullion on your word alone. I suppose you could make a large batch of gold at once, then send a small sample of that bath to be assayed by a company, get a certificate, and use it on the whole batch?


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## Lou (Oct 3, 2008)

Generally it's just easier to send the whole lot to the assayer and tel them how many milligrams to take and how the customer wants it analyzed. 

If it's a big lot, get it umped.

This one goes out to GSP/Harold, any information on what's needed to (legally/officially) stamp a product as 9999 fine? Even if my analyses and my assayers' agree, I still am hesitant to stamp any ingot.

Oz made (by private communication) a very good point about silver bullion and his word has enough weight with me to seriously consider it--I'll probably be talking to GSP soon!


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## Harold_V (Oct 4, 2008)

I am unaware of any regulations pertaining to anyone marking the fineness on precious metals. I would assume that it should be proper, or err on the side of being marked too low. 

When I refined, I marked my material in such a way that I had a little wiggle room. I never insinuated that my gold was four 9's, just that it would meet, or exceed, the industry standard, which is 9995. 

When I marked ingots, I simply marked them as fine gold. 

I marked silver to 3 places, insuring that I did not misrepresent my purity. 

Depending on one's customer base, and how values are sold, it isn't important to have an assay. If, through performance, you become accepted, the average customer will not have an issue with the quality (fineness) of your metals. Note that I am not alluding to metals that are refined to a high state of purity, just run of the mill metals used in every-day industry. 

In all my years of refining, none of my customers challenged my purity, although one did have one delivery assayed. I represented my gold as being 9995 fine. According to him, the assay found it to be 9997. I think you'll find that no one will complain if your quality is better than it is represented to be. 

Do keep in mind, I tried to fly under the radar, and keep a low profile. I provided excellent quality without a great deal of fanfare. Your objective may be different. 

Harold


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Oct 4, 2008)

I sell circuit boards and the gold I refine to the same (undisclosed) contact. MY buyer has enough experience with gold refining to purchase my nuggets based on a visual inspection only. 

He wants the nuggets to be as melted, no cleaning them up, and the nugget should have a small dimple in the center. This apparently indicates the approximate purity. I get paid about 97% of the current spot price. Am I doing good? Any comments?


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## viacin (Oct 4, 2008)

Sell your nuggets on eBay. Not exactly flying under the radar anymore though, but gold bars sell for about $35/g. + S&H. There are a lot of would-be "investors" on there searching for a deal and never finding one. I have yet to see any gold sell for less than spot on eBay, and I watched for several weeks. The worse the economy, the higher the bids go. I think it's a "The world is ending" kinda thing for some people.

Speaking of which harold, how would you feel about stamping gold bars and selling to the general public (such as ebay auctions, not a storefront)? I've only seen one non-minted gold bar on there, and it went for the same price, about $35/g. He had ".999% Fine" stamped on it himself.

LoL, I'm just afraid the dreaded black suburbans will pull up one day and take all my gold, and me to jail...and then the epa would have a reason to fine me for the chemicals. Triple Wammy.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Oct 4, 2008)

I used to sell my gold on eBay, a few years ago. Back then I would get between 5% over and 5% under spot. With eBay fees, that's not as good as what I get now selling it privately, unless I sell it for spot or better, got to factor in the eBay fees.

But, if now it's bringing better than spot (hopefully enought to cover the eBay fees) then eBay would seem like the way to go.


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## Noxx (Oct 4, 2008)

Steve,
Could I ask you one question ?
Do you sell your gold in bars, beads, flakes or shot ?
Don't fear the competition, I'm in Quebec 

Thank You


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## viacin (Oct 4, 2008)

I just checked ebay, there are 4 1g gold bars ending withing the hour, the lowest is $36, the highest is $37.77 Plus, these guys are charging $5 s&h (the $37.77 is free shipping however), so you know they're making $1-$2 there. That's $1174.64/oz!

Gold spot at this very moment is $26.86/g. That's $10.91 above spot! Thats over 40% above spot! Is my math wrong? that seems insane.

$37.77 - $26.86 = $10.91 / 26.86 = .4061%!!

Q: Why aren't we all on ebay selling our gold?????
Eaby fee's have went through the roof, but wow, 40% above spot should pay for them and then some.


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## Noxx (Oct 4, 2008)

Don't forget that the gold bars you see are from certified assayers. 
Also, there's a large premium on 1 gram gold bars.


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## viacin (Oct 4, 2008)

lol now that leads to a good question, isn't there one of those cheapo online only asser classes that you can take to become certified? I'm sure anyone that's been in this hobby can find, or already has the knowledge to assay, so getting a certificate could only make them that much richer.

Or is certified assaying something that's controlled and kept up with since it could really give any schmuch the ability to certify tons of impure gold as pure.


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## Noxx (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't know who's in right to deliver such certificated but I'm sure they're hard to obtain. Assayers have to follow strict rules and often visited by inspectors.


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## Harold_V (Oct 4, 2008)

Noble Metals Recovery said:


> I sell circuit boards and the gold I refine to the same (undisclosed) contact. MY buyer has enough experience with gold refining to purchase my nuggets based on a visual inspection only.
> 
> He wants the nuggets to be as melted, no cleaning them up, and the nugget should have a small dimple in the center. This apparently indicates the approximate purity. I get paid about 97% of the current spot price. Am I doing good? Any comments?


The dimple you speak of, the pipe, is a good indicator of fine gold. Gold that is contaminated won't dimple---it freezes instead, and generally has a strange pattern on the surface, along with oxides. Your buyer is very much in tune with reality. 

The lack of the pipe isn't necessarily a sign that gold isn't pure. If a person masters the casting process, and controls cooling, it's very possible to create ingots that have no pipe. 

I insured that mine didn't have one, which involved heating the ingot once poured, allowing it to cool from the bottom, up, not from the sides, in. By doing so, the pipe doesn't form. My problem was heating it fast enough to prevent the center from being considerably lower than the entire ingot, which was caused by cooling from the edges in as well as from the bottom, up. I eliminated the pipe entirely, but couldn't keep the ingot flat. 

There's no reason why a perfectly flat ingot can't be cast, assuming the entire cooling process is well controlled. A process I never quite mastered. I cast very few ingots. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Oct 4, 2008)

viacin said:


> Speaking of which harold, how would you feel about stamping gold bars and selling to the general public (such as ebay auctions, not a storefront)? I've only seen one non-minted gold bar on there, and it went for the same price, about $35/g. He had ".999% Fine" stamped on it himself.


When you're in tune with refining, and know that your quality is good, I see nothing wrong with stamping a bar----just do it conservatively. 

One of my customers delivered a small button that he wanted melted and included in an ingot I cast for him. The button was marked 4 9's, but it was obvious it wasn't pure. It had a rosy color that concerned me. I told him the only way I'd include the gold was if I refined it first. Turned out it was contaminated with platinum, so my observation was correct. 

As far as marking bars that get put on the market, I did exactly that. The picture, below, represents five bars that I cast that I know ended up on the market. As I said, I marked conservatively. Note that they say Fine Gold, and do not represent a given fineness. In essence, the claim is that the gold is pure, not intentionally alloyed. It would be hard to hang a person for dishonesty under that particular claim. 

Note that the ingots in the picture were marked on the bottom, not the top. By doing so, I had a flat surface to mark. It's difficult to mark one that tapers, which mine did. 

Harold


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## viacin (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm drooling over those bars. good work! I feel much more confident stamping my bars now. 

BTW, who made your custom stamp?


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## Harold_V (Oct 4, 2008)

I designed it, then had Salt Lake Stamp make it (them). While a good stamp can be made using a CNC mill, or a pantograph, a plunge EDM is the best possible choice. The stamp can be heat treated prior to being made, then the impression burned. That eliminates the risk of cracking in heat treat, after all the work is done. While it's not a common problem, the threat exists. 

I let the smallest one, the one used on those ingots, go with the business when I sold it. I still have the two larger ones. They require a serious amount of tonnage in order to make a decent impression, so they were of no use to the buyer of my refining business. 

The large one measures 2", top to bottom, and the smaller one measures 1-1/8", top to bottom. It's borderline too big to be used with an 8 ton arbor press. The large one doesn't work well at all. I feel it would require 50 tons to imprint well. 

Trusting to memory, I believe the one used on those ingots measured 3/4", top to bottom. 

Harold


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## Oz (Oct 4, 2008)

Harold,

Those are some very nice looking, professional bars. If you care to elaborate a bit more about the molds you used and your cooling procedures I would be very interested. It sounds like you removed the bars from the mold and then did an annealing operation, but I’m unsure of your description.

Oz


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Oct 4, 2008)

When selling them on eBay I sold them as flakes, they look somewhat like nuggets.

When selling direct, my buyer likes beads, from a few grams up to an ounce or so in size. The buyer wants to see the "dimple" in the bead, to show the purity.


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## Harold_V (Oct 4, 2008)

Oz said:


> If you care to elaborate a bit more about the molds you used


All my molds were made of cast iron. Being a machinist, and operating a commercial shop at the time, I made my own. I've posted on them previously, and may have even posted a picture. I'll include one with this post if you didn't see it. The picture will include the asbestos box I speak of, later. The molds, from left to right, are for 10, 5, 2 (or 3), 1, & ½ oz. ingots. 



> and your cooling procedures I would be very interested.


I did all my casting with a gloved hand (asbestos glove), handling the melting dish without the aid of holding tools. It was the safest possible way to pour the gold without loss. I also poured in an asbestos box, to contain any spills. So then, the mold was preheated to the point where it would not ignite the carbon that was deposited with an acetylene torch, sans oxygen. This, of course, is very dirty to do----but I did that in my fume hood, where all the free soot was captured. 

The mold was preheated, then generously covered with soot. The gold was then (torch) melted and poured immediately. The moment the gold is poured, the torch is played on the surface of the gold, preventing it from solidifying rapidly. A soft flame, leaning towards reducing, is desired, with low velocity, so the flame doesn't disrupt the cooling pattern. The idea is to keep the surface molten and allow the gold to cool from the bottom to the top. That eliminates the pipe, and, done properly, will yield a flat surface on the top face. It's VERY difficult to do by hand, so my results were uneven. It is for that reason I marked the bottoms instead of the tops. 

For the record, while a pipe is very important in determining the quality of gold you pour, it is not a desirable feature to include in an ingot. Professionals never allow the pipe---nor should you. 

You may recall that Noxx used to use a picture of an ingot as his avatar. That ingot was poured properly. You can see the slightest hint of a center pip, but no pipe. A perfect ingot, in my opinion. 

Soot coating of the mold plays a very important roll in pouring a clean ingot. If you don't smoke the mold well, and if you don't move the stream about as you pour, it often will burn through the soot covering and fuse the gold to the mold. It's not a big issue with small ingots, but anything larger than a couple ounces it can be because of the volume of gold being poured. 



> It sounds like you removed the bars from the mold and then did an annealing operation, but I’m unsure of your description.


No----no processing after pouring the mold. The only exception to that is after marking, I always boiled the ingots in dilute sulfuric, to insure that no surface impurities were included. The gold was so pure and clean that if ingots made contact, they had a tendency to stick to one another. 

If the ingot comes out of the mold looking lousy, your only real options are to re-melt and recast, or die strike the resulting ingot. That's usually well beyond the ability of the home refiner. A huge press would be required, as well as a proper die. *DO NOT try to melt gold in an ingot mold.* It should be poured from either a crucible, or a melting dish. 

Harold


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## Noxx (Oct 5, 2008)

It's the first time I see a picture of your molds...


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## Oz (Oct 5, 2008)

Thank you for that Harold. I was aware of the sooting of molds but I do not think I would have done it so thoroughly had I not seen yours first. Your desription of your cooling procedures makes perfect sense now as well. 

I tried magnifying Noxx’s avatar pic to no avail, perhaps he will humor me and post a higher resolution picture of it.

I am impressed with the accuracy in mass you achieved in your finished product. I imagine careful pre-weighing and little or none left in the melting dish. I was curious though that you marked and then boiled in sulfuric to remove any impurities. Would that not have changed the mass considering the fine weight tolerances you stamped? I’m not trying to be critical, just curious.

Lastly, is there anything you would have done differently from the above procedure if you were pouring Pd or Ag?

Thanks again for your time!
Oz


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## Harold_V (Oct 5, 2008)

Oz said:


> I am impressed with the accuracy in mass you achieved in your finished product. I imagine careful pre-weighing and little or none left in the melting dish.


I used an analytical (beam type) balance to weigh the gold. It was purchased surplus, from the U of U. I lived in Salt Lake City when I refined. There was a local company operated by the Ruefenacht family that made balances, bullion, assay and analytical. I had them make me a set of weights. They were, at that time, certified to calibrate. When the father died (old age), the business closed. They no longer exist. 

Casting exact weights is not easy. For one, when you melt the gold, unless it has been previously melted, a miniscule amount goes off as colloidal particles. You can see evidence of that by observing the color of the asbestos melting tray. It is purple because of the huge amount of gold that was melted. 

I cast shot, then weighed the proper amount, usually allowing a grain or less over weight. Not all of it will pour every time---even when you have applied fresh borax to the dish. Ten ounces was the target weight. 



> I was curious though that you marked and then boiled in sulfuric to remove any impurities. Would that not have changed the mass considering the fine weight tolerances you stamped? I’m not trying to be critical, just curious.



You actually asked a good question, so no offense taken. 

Being pure, gold is not affected. The cleaning process was to insure that any potential material that may have been imbedded in the ingot in the marking process was eliminated. If anything, the ingot would return to the marked weight. I was very clean with my processing and handling, so I never noticed any changes----but I liked to insure that what I provided was realistic. 



> Lastly, is there anything you would have done differently from the above procedure if you were pouring Pd or Ag?



I did pour several silver ingots---many 100 ounce, and a few smaller ones. You must use preventive measures when you pour silver because of its affinity for oxygen. It doesn't oxidize easily, but it will absorb nine times its volume in oxygen, expelling it as it solidifies. If you've read Hoke, you likely remember reading about the surface often being disfigured by spires of silver, the result of oxygen leaving the surface rapidly as the silver solidifies. 

Silver can be melted in a graphite crucible to minimize the intake of oxygen, or even covered with a layer of carbon (charcoal). My procedure was to pour while holding a smoking torch on the mold. It would then be played over the surface while the silver cooled to minimize uneven shrinkage. 

As far as palladium goes-----I never tried to cast any. I melted a small amount, but left virtually all of my palladium as sponge, and sold it that way. 

There are monumental problems with casting palladium---due to its high melting point. It is not advised to use a carbon barrier, for the platinum metals form carbides. That would eliminate the use of graphite or iron molds. I have no idea how palladium is cast. What little I melted was simply allowed to freeze in the melting dish, then removed before it stuck to the dish. Sorry----I'm not any help with the platinum metals. 

Harold

edit: corrected two spelling errors


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## viacin (Oct 5, 2008)

Harold, I think you answered every question I've ever had about the molding process. This should be moved to the tutorial section, seriously. There is a lot of wisdom in your words.

btw, you were a machinist? Me too. I'm going on 5 years this Oct ( I know, still a noob). I learned the old scool way of doing things hands on from the shop floor from one of the best old timers in town. I learned how to program CNC's last year though, so most days I end up programming and setting up the machines now. I miss the manual lathes and mills some days, but the promotion to head programmer was worth it . lol, if I keep typing I'll have to move this to the about me section so I'm shutting up now.


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## Lou (Oct 5, 2008)

Very good pictures Harold, that's about how I do it. My only comment is that I just put my molds over the vent hole in the furnace, bottom to the furnace lid and let them heat that way. Then when it comes time to cast, I turn down the burner from 12 psi propane to 4 psi and close the choke, richening it up in the furnace. Pull the molds off with tongs, soot them (usually I start the torch while the melt is coming to casting heat) and set them in perlite. The perlite keeps the molds very hot for a long time. As for the flame--I have a fan tip that gives a 3" fan (its original purpose was for glassblowing--heating a section of tubing evenly), I just play this slightly lean across the surface. Any spills immediately stick to the perlite, which is white and especially good for noticing gold. Perlite's so light that any spill can be recovered just by shaking the perlite for a minute or two and then removing all but what's left on the bottom, where all the metal-stuck-to-perlite accumulates.

One thing I've noticed is that you get a better ingot the hotter the mold is, and the faster you get all of the metal in the mold. Also, the slower you cool, the flatter the ingot will be. 


As for palladium, like platinum and rhodium, those are best melted via induction and cast with a positive argon pressure, or more preferably, negative pressure due to vacuum. Palladium is a particular nuisance because it sometimes ''spits'' when you're heating the powder via torch because it oxidizes and flies off. Molds for Pt, Rh, and Pd can either be cooled copper (Rh and Pt freeze almost instantly, Pd less so). Usually though, pressed alumina with a zirconia stucco is used for crucibles and for the molds when casting these three.The mold is preheated to about 2500F/1300C so it doesn't crack when 3000+F metal goes into it. If one even desired, one could melt them in the mold.

Casting temps depend on size of whatever you're casting but it's a more narrow window than other metals with lower m.p.'s. I can carry a crucible of cast iron all around the shop and pour a heavy mold--I can't do that with any PGM. Hell, some of the PGMs *can't* be torch melted in a reasonable quantity no matter how hard you try.

I've cast Pt and Pd before for rings but never in quantity for ingots. I don't sell ingots of the PGMs, if someone wants them in bulk and won't take sponge (which is odd), I have sintered alumina crucibles that I just pack with sponge and melt in, topping them off til full. A full one holds exactly 100g of platinum. Turn it over when it's still hot and the metal falls out. Generally I rinse with warm water and they're off.


Lou


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## Oz (Oct 5, 2008)

Thank you Harold and Louis for sharing your expertise.

I have made buttons with Ag about an ounce in mass w/o the difficulties referenced in Hoke, perhaps I have just been lucky. I have an iron mold that I need to make some anodes with and set up a silver cell as my Ag is contaminated with PGM. It is then that I will need the advice I am getting here for casting bars. 

I actually chose to add Pd to the short list because of its lower melting point compared to Pt and Rh, I also have more of it. With the drop in PGM prices it is more tempting to work/play with them vs. selling. 

The perlite tip will be handy. I used to anneal old heavy springs by taking them to a cherry heat for 10 minutes or so and then burying them in wood ash to cool over night. It did a great job of taking out internal stresses and leaving the high carbon soft, ready to take to the anvil to forge into tools.

It would be wonderful to have an induction furnace like Lou but I am set up rather crudely using an acetylene torch for now. I am aware of the problems with acetylene and platinum but have not heard the same with Pd. I should talk to my welding shop to see about getting hydrogen for a Hoke torch down the road. 

I would be tempted to make my own hydrogen as it is simple enough to make safely the small amounts I would use. I have spare oxy tanks that i thought of using but am unsure as to the permeability of these tanks with hydrogen. Filling them to pressure would be my greatest concern, as I would want to avoid a 30% stoichiometric ratio with air when filling. Possibly purging the tank with dry ice (CO2), and then drawing a reasonable vacuum before filling. Purely an intellectual pursuit at this time as it would be lot of hassle to be sure, but fun with additional uses once set up. Has anyone here done it? Thoughts?


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## viacin (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm saving all this into a wordpad file for refrence.


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## goldsilverpro (Oct 6, 2008)

Lou,

I've been off the forum for awhile and just read your PM on silver. Give me a day or two to think about your questions.



> This one goes out to GSP/Harold, any information on what's needed to (legally/officially) stamp a product as 9999 fine? Even if my analyses and my assayers' agree, I still am hesitant to stamp any ingot.



I agree with Harold. Either stamp it as Fine Gold or as 9995. You can pretty much rely on the pipe and crystal structure at that purity. No matter what other assay methods are available, the gold industry normally uses fire assay. Fire assay is supposedly only accurate to .02%, which makes it impossible to make a claim of 9999. 

The only time I was required to make 999.9 Fine gold was when the company I worked for needed that purity for making gold plating salts. Any less purity would show up negatively in the product. We originally had about 30, or more, impurities analyzed, by spectro, on the first couple of batches, and then subtracted the total percentage of impurities from 100%. I don't know if that's the standard method now for high purity gold, but it was then.

I never stamped my gold bars and I retained the pipe. The biggest problem with a pipe is that slag gets trapped in it, if you're not careful.


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