# Half Gallon Silver Cell



## philddreamer (Sep 1, 2011)

I've followed some of the other members silver cell projects & their succes in
harvesting thick silver crystal. I've learned some do's & don't. 
I built a 1 litre cell & harvested 4 t oz of some nice crystals in 16 hrs.; today I would like to try a half gallon cell! :mrgreen: 

GSP has given me some expert advised that I intent to follow closely.
In my 1 litre cell, I used the standard, horizontal design, of one surface of the anode facing the one surface of the cathode. Anode was 5 t oz., 2sq." of surface, from .99 cemented silver. Cathode was 2" x 2.5" x .5" hard graphite that I bought from Lazersteve. I used as a power source a 5vDC/2amp phone charger, which produced thicker crystals, & for comparison, a 6v/4amp battery charger. You can notice the difference in the crystals, the battery charger produced fine, featherlike crystals. 

The porpouse of the cell is purity & SPEED of deposition. In the half gallon cell I will be using 2 - 2" x 2.5" ( 5sq." surface ea. side) anodes; they will be vertical, so that means x 4 = 20sq" exposed anode surface to the 2 - 2" x 3" x .75" hard graphite cathodes. I will need 7amp's, so for power, I will start using the battery charger @ 6v/ & see how many amp's it will draw.
If a get 7amp's I should desposit 28g/hr., or, 21.6 t oz in 24 hrs. We'll find out! :mrgreen: 
I should start running it later today. 

Phil


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## philddreamer (Sep 1, 2011)

I ran the cell for 3 hours. Had to turn it off because the electrolyte started to
warm up as the amperage increased from 6 to 12 in 3 hrs.. 
I started running @ 6v/6 amp's; after 1 hr it rose to 9 amp's; @ 2 hrs. 10 amp's & @ 3 hrs. it was 12 amp's. 
The deposition was as expected 28g/hr; I have 2.5 to 3 t oz. of crystals.
During the first hour the crystals were like thin wire, as the amperage rose they turned to long feathers & towards the end, wide feathers. 
I'll restart in 2 hours or so after letting the electrolyte cool & see if I get the wire crystals again.

P.S.
I allowed the electrolyte to cool for 2 hours, & then restarted the cell, I ran it for another 2 hours. After running the cell for a total of 5 full hours, I had to harvest the crystals. The rinsed & dried crystals weighed 6 T ounces.
So, I had a deposition on 1.2 T ounces or 37.32g/hr. I was expecting 28g/hr. , 25% more crystal deposition than expected! 8) 

Thanks GSP!


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## samuel-a (Sep 3, 2011)

Very nice setup Phil. Pure silver is so white, that's always makes me exited... Thanks for sharing. 8) 

I'm working on my own big cell these days... here's snap shot of the anodes "bag".
For comparison, the blue marker is a tad more then 5 inch long...
Edit: spelling


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## philddreamer (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks Samuel!
The crystals are beautiful, they sort of hypnotize me... :shock: 
I'll be changing the design some, maybe a 5 gl. bucket so the crystal can fall to the botom. It was depositing 1.2 T oz/hr of crystal & after 5 hrs. I had to stop to harvest. It definetly needs to be deeper.
And last, but not the least, the proper power source.

That looks like its going to be one heck of a cell Bro, judging from the size of the basket.

Keep us posted!

Phil


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## stihl88 (Sep 3, 2011)

Nice work their Phil, Ive got a couple of Kilos I'll be processing soon but Ive got a baby arriving in 6 days so i don't think it will be any time soon.


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## rewalston (Sep 3, 2011)

stihl88 said:


> Nice work their Phil, Ive got a couple of Kilos I'll be processing soon but Ive got a baby arriving in 6 days so i don't think it will be any time soon.


Congratulations on the bundle of joy.

Rusty


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## stihl88 (Sep 3, 2011)

Awwww, thank you Rusty. Ive got a month off from work so i'm looking forward to spending some precious time with the new born and hopefully sneak away to do some shooting, blasting some stumps and running my Silver Cell.
Fingers crossed :mrgreen:


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## butcher (Sep 3, 2011)

Yes Congratulations stihl88, would like to see pictures, when you get them,


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## philddreamer (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks Sthil & congratulations!

Well, while he/she naps, you can work on putting together the cell. :roll: 
But then again, you'll probably be napping, too! :lol: 

Take care! And yes, keep your fingers crossed... :mrgreen: 

Phil


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## element47 (Sep 3, 2011)

Nice work and nice pix, Phil. Well done!

I like how you used the screw-eyes to make contact with your anodes. Nobel prize? No, but it is clever. Do you think there is any potential for pollution of your electrolyte?


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## element47 (Sep 4, 2011)

Phil, the thought occurred to me that as your cell grows larger, you are clearly going to need a power supply of greater and great ampacity. These start to get a tad pricey once you are in the 20 amp range. Unless you already have such a beast. Just factor that into your thoughts of world domination!


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## Geo (Sep 4, 2011)

what is the concentration on the silver nitrate your using?


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## Harold_V (Sep 4, 2011)

element47 said:


> I like how you used the screw-eyes to make contact with your anodes. Nobel prize? No, but it is clever. Do you think there is any potential for pollution of your electrolyte?


I do. Depending on the nature of a given cell, a silver "candlestick" type of contact is preferred, which eliminates any potential contamination. 

Harold


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## philddreamer (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks Element!
My intentions with the S.S. screw eyes was to hang the anodes, so they would be 95% in the solution & the screws would never come in contact with solution. But the container is not deep enough... :roll: so as soon as I started, it was back to the drawing board! :lol: Remember, some of the other members are experimenting with cells designed to make thick crystals; I'm experimenting with a cell that will give purity plus higher deposition. And definetly if the screws come in contact with the electrolyte, there'll be contamination. And I stated earlier, I will need the proper power supply in order to control the current, & yes, I know they'll be pricey.
And last, but not the least, I'm not trying to dominate the world... :roll: 
just my neck of the woods! :mrgreen: 

Geo, I started using Lazersteve's recommended concentration, but, finding myself with not enough depth for my anodes, I added more nitrate. I understood from GSP that the electrolyte tends to balance itself as you run the cell. That seems to have happened; as the electrolyte started to balance,
I had more deposition & a bit thicker crystals. I'm preparing to leave on a 2 week gold panning trip to Colfax, California on monday a.m., so I'm pressed for time. ( Some slimes, collected from previous runs in the smaller cell, have yielded some 2g + of Au, so I'm fiddling with that too). 
The anodes are dissolved, w/21.8g left. I have harvested 12 T oz of crystals, w/ the last run's still to harvest, so, what ever is missing from the originak 25 T oz of anodes its what took for the electrolyte to balance.
I'll post the numbers as soon as I can.

Hi Harold!
As I progress thru my T.& E. project, (trials & errors... :shock: ) I realized the S.S. screw would be temporary, So I'm getting more hard graphite from Steve & custom machine some molds with "ears" for my anodes. At the present, I plan to drill a hole thru the ear & use a S.S. 1/8 rod to suspend
the anodes from. But that will be after the trip...
I'm always thankful for your expert advise, Sir! 8) 

Thank you all!

Phil


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## kadriver (Nov 1, 2011)

philddreamer:

hello, did you get this larger silver cell set up and running ok?

I am interested in making a larger silver cell.

Any info you have and the results you are getting would be of interest to me.

Thank you - kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 1, 2011)

Also:

How did your panning expedition turn out?

thanks


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## philddreamer (Nov 1, 2011)

Hi Peter! 
Both, the panning "expedition" & the cell went well. 
On the cell, I've been side tracked on ALL my project, its hunting season! I've also been down with the flu for a week now, but doing bwter. :mrgreen: I'm just heading out now for elk...
But I just got "paid" for refining some gold with a new 5oz graphite mold.
I can wait to pour some silver in it! :mrgreen: 

I belive I posted the rtesult, so far, with the cell.

Take care!

Phil


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## Harold_V (Nov 2, 2011)

kadriver said:


> I am interested in making a larger silver cell.


You might consider using a pot from a restaurant steam table. They're made of 300 alloy stainless and provide a pretty nice cell at minimum expense. They are also available in various sizes. The entire container becomes the cathode---so you must build an insulating basket for the anode. Not a big deal----you can use plastic. 

Harold


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## Grassbur (Nov 2, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> kadriver said:
> 
> 
> > I am interested in making a larger silver cell.
> ...



Hi Harold, New member here. I have learned a significant amount from Hoke, Phil, GSP, and you over the last few months, so for that I am great full. 

In regards to the steam pot you are referring to, I am assuming you are talking about a Fondue Pot (or something similar) 

Where do you clip your negative? On the rim? Do your Crystals grow all over the pot in a uniform manner, or do they tend to start where the lead is attached?

EDIT: I just saw another post of yours and I see what steam pot you are talking about. One of the Luby's warming dishes lol.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 2, 2011)

Maybe these are the stainless containers Harold was talking about - Bain Maries. I just bought 4ea, 1.25 quart ones for making steamed brown bread. I paid $2.98 each, with covers, at a local restaurant supply. They were non-magnetic and were, I would guess, about 24-26 gauge. They come in all sizes, with the 1.25 qt ones being the smallest. I've seen higher prices on the internet and maybe those are heavier. I've owned several stainless beakers from lab supply companies, which cost an arm and a leg, and these, at first glance, seem to be about the same and are much, much cheaper. I would guess the beakers are heavier, though.

http://www.jesrestaurantequipment.com/restaurant-smallwares-bain-maries-c-305331_305354.html


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## Grassbur (Nov 2, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> Maybe these are the stainless containers Harold was talking about - Bain Maries. I just bought 4ea, 1.25 quart ones for making steamed brown bread. I paid $2.98 each, with covers, at a local restaurant supply. They were non-magnetic and were, I would guess, about 24-26 gauge. They come in all sizes, with the 1.25 qt ones being the smallest. I've seen higher prices on the internet and maybe those are heavier. I've owned several stainless beakers from lab supply companies, which cost an arm and a leg, and these, at first glance, seem to be about the same and are much, much cheaper. I would guess the beakers are heavier, though.
> 
> http://www.jesrestaurantequipment.com/restaurant-smallwares-bain-maries-c-305331_305354.html




Thanks GSP, I have one of those. It is a 1.5 qt. So would I want to just Gator clip the edge of it for my negative lead?


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 2, 2011)

Grassbur said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe these are the stainless containers Harold was talking about - Bain Maries. I just bought 4ea, 1.25 quart ones for making steamed brown bread. I paid $2.98 each, with covers, at a local restaurant supply. They were non-magnetic and were, I would guess, about 24-26 gauge. They come in all sizes, with the 1.25 qt ones being the smallest. I've seen higher prices on the internet and maybe those are heavier. I've owned several stainless beakers from lab supply companies, which cost an arm and a leg, and these, at first glance, seem to be about the same and are much, much cheaper. I would guess the beakers are heavier, though.
> ...



Ask Harold. Since I've never used a stainless container for a silver cell, I'd rather not comment.


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## Harold_V (Nov 3, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> Ask Harold. Since I've never used a stainless container for a silver cell, I'd rather not comment.


Yes, that's correct. The entire vessel becomes the cathode, so connecting anywhere that's convenient will work. My cell had a lug welded on to which I affixed the clip. It's not visible in the attached picture, but it's on the rear right hand side, very near the top. 

The only real problem with using a stainless container is that you must keep some distance between the sides and the anode. If that isn't addressed, especially when the electrolyte accumulates copper, you get a fine fast developing growth that shorts the cell. I hadn't addressed that problem with my cell, but ended up placing a strip of wide and heavy electrical tape along the inside edges, insulating the cell. It appears to hold up perfectly well, and eliminated the problem. Something similar could be applied to a round vessel. My cell was rectangular, with straight sides.

Here's a picture, although I'm not convinced it will be helpful.

Harold


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## Palladium (Nov 3, 2011)

Does that dude have cigarettes up his nose? Rotfl :shock:


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## Harold_V (Nov 3, 2011)

Palladium said:


> Does that dude have cigarettes up his nose? Rotfl :shock:


Chuckle!
Look closely and you'll see a pair of *cigarettes* that aren't lit. They're to the right of the two "up his nose". What you're seeing is the reflection of a pair of 8' fluorescent tubes (the bright *cigarettes*). If you'll look at the pic again, at the top, just right of the TV, you'll see the ends of the two that are not lit. They are 6' tubes. I had them on individual circuits so I could use only those that I needed. For the most part, I rarely ran the 6' tubes, for the 8' fixture provided more than enough light. 

Harold


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## justinhcase (Mar 1, 2014)

I have just got some stout titanium wire to make an anode basket to use in my silver cell (so I would not have to keep adjusting the hight of my crocodile clip to keep it out of solution and hopfuly not have little knobs to resmelt).
When I did a small test the titanium instantly lost its slight oxide covering and went very silver in color so I stoped the experiment.
Was I wrong to think Titanium would be resistent to striping in a silver cell?


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## Palladium (Mar 1, 2014)

Ti is no good. I've tried it. You can buy silver wire or make an anode stick.


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## Lou (Mar 2, 2014)

CP titanium works. You started to anodize it.


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## Palladium (Mar 2, 2014)

My problem wasn't with the wire degrading as much as with the heat it generated. Connecting the wire to an ingot with a large surface area it pulled a lot of current and the wire acted as a resistor and heated up more than i liked. It layed on the muslin one time and almost burned a hole in the cloth. Cotton fabric with nitric acid and heat scare me, i've seen filter papers combust before, so i just scrapped the idea an went with the KISS approach.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 2, 2014)

For D.C., the general rule is that it requires copper of 1 in2 cross section to carry 1000A comfortably without heating.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 2, 2014)

Titanium have 25 times the resistivity of copper so the corresponding figure would be 25 in2 for 1000A or 40A for a 1 in2 cross section. Silver have even less resistivity compared with copper so it can handle higher loads.

Göran


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## Lou (Mar 3, 2014)

Ralph brings up a good point, especially about the risk of cotton and nitrates.


Titanium is fairly resistive. My point is that anode baskets in silver cells are routinely made of CP titanium.


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## justinhcase (Mar 3, 2014)

The titanium I used was sold for a plating bath and did not list it's make up, it may be an alloy I will have to check.
So if I used a CP Titaniun surgical screw and use it much like philddreamer and his hooks( September 1st, 2011, 10:41 pm)
I will be able to run my cell with the hole anode submerged with out polluting my electrolyte?
That would be good as you could add a new anode before the last one has run out.


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## philddreamer (Mar 3, 2014)

Justin, I would like to point out, that I did not submerged the S.S. screws on the anode; I used S.S. in order not to contaminate the solution; the use of another type of metal screw could oxidaze and flakes fall into the solution, thus contaminating it. 

Phil


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## justinhcase (Mar 4, 2014)

I already use SS for the cathode but have been running with all clips and connections above the level of solution like your ss hook's.
I won't list all the drawbacks with this system ,but in order to save on supervision and stop the problem with accidental contamination I had been looking at the anode baskets the bigger refiners use.these seem to be made of Titanium and can be submerged with out contamination so I thought of using that .
My experiment did show a color chang on the titanium but no flaking this may have been down to the fact I stoped the experiment or because just the oxide came off from the titanium wire.As I was not sure I asked.
Now I do have two good route's of inquiry thrown up by your two school's of thought .(a)may be the titanium provided by the platting company was not CP titanium(they are checking)in which case I have some surgical screws some one brought to me thinking that all implants where Platinum(I was a disappointed as he when I saw them and checked there specs with a surgeon Friend of mine.)and I thought your use of SS screw's could be made to work the way I wanted by using CP titanium instead.(b)even CP titanium will contaminate on a small scale and for some reason the method is only suited to the larger Cells.
No conclusive answers yet but lost of good stuff to look into thanks.
I much profer to run on a low current and take my time so i never have had any problems with resistance. and only ever gets hot when the anode is getting small.that is an other reason why a submerged system would be of help you could put the replacement anode in while you still have some left on the old one.


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## nickvc (Mar 4, 2014)

Justin the best small cell design I have seen was the one that palladium made, it's simple and it works!


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## justinhcase (Mar 4, 2014)

Yes I do Like his big S.S. bowl set up and I stopped soldering silver wire to my anode.
Now I cast my own thin silver lengths and place that in my anode mold before I cast it.
But I found that the optimal placement of the interface is close to the surface of the solution so you don't wast to much energy resmelting product more than once. so as more silver is turned to crystal the volume of displaced liquid increases.
that and the fact that the anode becomes lighter and can shift it's placement have caused some small problems so need constant monitoring at decreasing interval's as the point of changing the anode is reached.
It would just save me from having to check on it every half hour to ten minutes if I could have found a better way to cycle the anodes and some thing that would not cause contamination if as inevitably happens some times the conductor above the silver happens to touch the wet filter or has been coughed by the rising level of solution.Also I hate to admit it but despite my best efforts I have returned once or twice to find the hole anode has been eaten and no longer meets the liquid as this causes problems as outlined in your explanation of resistance.once or twice the thin silver wire has been eaten through and the larg anode is sat at the bottom of the filter.(DoW)One day some one will invent a way of us just politely asking matter to do what we want and it will oblige in the mean time we have the fun of trying to cowers it.


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## Palladium (Mar 4, 2014)

Have you seen the youtube video on the silver cell?


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## justinhcase (Mar 4, 2014)

I saw one or two but don't really pay much attention to it .
I destroyed a good reciprocating saw trying to copy am auto riddler and never forgave them.
I will try to find one connected to this forum.
I set my cell up the way my secondary school chemistry teacher showed me to some twenty five years ago and it look's just like most of yours that use a large beaker..
Always looking to improve any way I can though.


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## bmgold2 (Mar 4, 2014)

justinhcase said:


> I saw one or two but don't really pay much attention to it .
> I destroyed a good reciprocating saw trying to copy am auto riddler and never forgave them.
> I will try to find one connected to this forum.
> I set my cell up the way my secondary school chemistry teacher showed me to some twenty five years ago and it look's just like most of yours that use a large beaker..
> Always looking to improve any way I can though.



Here's a thread that contains the videos I think Palladium is talking about. Long videos but well worth watching. I've watched them at least a couple times and will probably watch them again before I attempt to build a silver cell. Award winning videos!

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17233&p=202931#p202931


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## tbrshou (Jun 24, 2014)

ok so yes i'm a noob and this is my first post you guy's/gals are brutal to noobs. So I gave in and decided to seek the answer to my question here. After all my research and getting enough courage I decided to try making a silver cell. This cell is made using cheaper items which was my second agenda the first being make quality silver. The problem is that im on day one 14 hours in and my crystals are taking on sharp weird metallic look was wondering if this was a good thing or am I making a inferior product and should I turn off the power and start over.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 24, 2014)

The crystal shapes look normal, but I'm confused by the picture. It looks like the crystals are growing outward from what looks like an anode bag. The crystals should be growing on the cathode. The anode should be in the bag, and there shouldn't be any growth from it, only slimes left in the anode bag. Am I misunderstanding what I see?

Dave


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## Palladium (Jun 24, 2014)

I was wondering about that myself but I'm viewing on my phone and just figured i was missing something but the crystals look good. :lol:


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## philddreamer (Jun 24, 2014)

It seems that the cathode is behind the anode bag. If you close up on the pic, you'll noticed that the left side of the anode bag is casting a shadow on the crystals.

Nice crystals! 8) 

Thanks!

Phil


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## tbrshou (Jun 24, 2014)

Ok sorry about the picture phildreamer had it right the anode bag is in front of the cathode and theres approx. 22 oz of shot in the bag. Thanks for the reassurance everyone.


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## butcher (Jun 24, 2014)

tbrshou, 

It looks like your study is really paying off, I would bet you would not be as far along in refining that silver without that study, asking a bunch of questions may help to get you started, but by studying you are well on your way.

Great job, it is also a pleasure to welcome members like you to the forum, who will most likely be teaching us a few tricks from what they learn.


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## Smack (Jun 25, 2014)

Those are some meaty crystals.


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## tbrshou (Jun 25, 2014)

This forum is really great once you slow down and research and thanks to everyone who has posted info on refining I've been reading and studying since January. Once I began my process it was a breeze kinda felt like a pro. Thanks again everyone for your knowledge and help.


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