# Catalytic Converter Recycling



## Dan72ccx (Jul 10, 2011)

Hi any comments on this
http://www.emakmakina.com/catalytic-converter-recycling.php


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## pgm (Jul 11, 2011)

Dan72ccx said:


> Hi any comments on this
> http://www.emakmakina.com/catalytic-converter-recycling.php



Hi Dan72ccx

Do you know how much this machine cost's? Have you seen it?


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## Ian_B (Jul 11, 2011)

asked for an E-mail in regards to pricing here is what I was sent


Dear Sir,



Thank you for your inquiry.



For catalytic convertors, we recover platinum and palladium at first, and then we check for rhodium. If there is rhodium, we also recover rhodium.
We use HCl base for platinum and palladium recovery. Moreover, we developed a brand new reaction for rhodium. We recover rhodium in HCl solution base as Pt recovery. This reaction takes 2 x 6 hours (6 hours for platinum and 6 hours for rhodium).
We recommend 50 kg capacity leach tanks for all reaction.
You need the following:
Hydraulic cutting machine: 12,000 Euro
Miller with ball: 3,000 Euro
A refining machine to separate all PGM: 27,000 Euro (you can use 4 leach tanks with this machine)
Leach tank for Pt and Pd for 50 kg capacity each is 6.000.euro
Leach tank for Rh for 50 kg capacity each is 8.000.euro.
You can add a new leach tank for each additional 50 kg capacity requirement.



Please do not hesitate to contact us for any questions.


Best regards,


Emin Akidil

Emak makina Ltd


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 11, 2011)

Ian_B said:


> asked for an E-mail in regards to pricing here is what I was sent
> 
> 
> Dear Sir,
> ...




For that kind of money I would think you could build a system with tanks and pumps a lot cheaper.


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## pgm (Jul 11, 2011)

Ian_B said:


> asked for an E-mail in regards to pricing here is what I was sent
> 
> 
> Dear Sir,
> ...



Well that sounds about right. i got the same info when i asked the company.

Has anyone bought the machine or seen the machine working?

i think Barren is spot on with his comment, what did you do Ian, what did you think of the price?


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## Ian_B (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm not really one to comment on what I think of the price I have next to no experience with these types of machines. the only process I have used was a couple of small batches processed through Steve's PGM DVD method.

First looks it reminds me of the System III from action mining I wonder if they use a proprietary additive like CLS-26P for the system III 

27,000  Euro's seems to be a bit much at least to me that's 37,893.45 USD at today's exchange rate


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## pgm (Jul 11, 2011)

Ian_B said:


> I'm not really one to comment on what I think of the price I have next to no experience with these types of machines. the only process I have used was a couple of small batches processed through Steve's PGM DVD method.
> 
> First looks it reminds me of the System III from action mining I wonder if they use a proprietary additive like CLS-26P for the system III
> 
> 27,000 Euro's seems to be a bit much at least to me that's 37,893.45 USD at today's exchange rate



good answer. Steve's dvd is very good, best investment i think. very easy to understand.


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## Oz (Jul 12, 2011)

pgm said:


> Steve's dvd is very good, best investment i think. very easy to understand.


How intuitive of you all. My first glance was that it was a fancy HCl/Cl2 leach system. I have never seen Steve's DVD but it seems very similar to what he does in gallon jugs in the sun but for a whole lot more money.


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## Dan72ccx (Jul 12, 2011)

I am not about the cost of machines. it about Rh left in cats, it sims to me proces they as Stivens but they tolcking the rhodium levt in them


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## nickvc (Jul 13, 2011)

Considering we have had the experience of several very large buyers of cats on the forum who have spent many thousands trying to refine the substrates and come to the conclusion that they can't beat the big refiners this seems a total waste of money to me. I think that if you can get cats cheap enough and process them in small quantities then perhaps you will have some success but the reality seems to be that some PGMs are always left behind and if done in large volumes this amounts to considerable amounts. The big boys don't chemically leach but use massive arc furnaces and I guess that they have a reason to spend that sort of money and don't have huge vats of chemicals full of the substrate lying around been leached. If this is a hobby and you can make a few bucks refining chemically then fine but as a business I'm not sold, it reminds me of jewellers floor sweeps or large volumes of low grade e scrap, chemically it's almost impossible to recover all the values and certainly not economically which is why the major players don't use those methods.


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## skippy (Jul 13, 2011)

I think you are basically correct Nick, that you might buy this machine and not be able to make money with it. Then again, you might be in a country with no good buyers for cats and say it's too risky or long of a turn around to send them out of the country, then you might do well to process them. I think chemical means can work reasonable well, but when you actually start working with the chemicals you'll find there is a lot of labor involved to handling and processing all the materials and solution. The plasma process works, is straight forward, and is very scaleable. These are also likely big factors in why it totally dominates the auto catalyst processing field.


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## Joeforbes (Jul 13, 2011)

nickvc said:


> Considering we have had the experience of several very large buyers of cats on the forum who have spent many thousands trying to refine the substrates and come to the conclusion that they can't beat the big refiners this seems a total waste of money to me. I think that if you can get cats cheap enough and process them in small quantities then perhaps you will have some success but the reality seems to be that some PGMs are always left behind and if done in large volumes this amounts to considerable amounts. The big boys don't chemically leach but use massive arc furnaces and I guess that they have a reason to spend that sort of money and don't have huge vats of chemicals full of the substrate lying around been leached. If this is a hobby and you can make a few bucks refining chemically then fine but as a business I'm not sold, it reminds me of jewellers floor sweeps or large volumes of low grade e scrap, chemically it's almost impossible to recover all the values and certainly not economically which is why the major players don't use those methods.



There was an episode of Modern Marvels called "Acids" that shows a refinery that uses a chemical process to refine their catalytic material. They dissolve the alumina substrate in boiling sulfuric acid, and process the metals that are left. They also showed a huge stainless steel silo full of canary yellow ammonium hexachloroplatinate. Millions of dollars worth. It made me drool.

*Please Note* Boiling sulfuric acid is extremely dangerous, and should not be attempted unless you have the required equipment and knowledge.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 13, 2011)

Joeforbes said:


> nickvc said:
> 
> 
> > Considering we have had the experience of several very large buyers of cats on the forum who have spent many thousands trying to refine the substrates and come to the conclusion that they can't beat the big refiners this seems a total waste of money to me. I think that if you can get cats cheap enough and process them in small quantities then perhaps you will have some success but the reality seems to be that some PGMs are always left behind and if done in large volumes this amounts to considerable amounts. The big boys don't chemically leach but use massive arc furnaces and I guess that they have a reason to spend that sort of money and don't have huge vats of chemicals full of the substrate lying around been leached. If this is a hobby and you can make a few bucks refining chemically then fine but as a business I'm not sold, it reminds me of jewellers floor sweeps or large volumes of low grade e scrap, chemically it's almost impossible to recover all the values and certainly not economically which is why the major players don't use those methods.
> ...



I know the episode you are referring to. If I remember right I don't think they disclosed what process they used on the material. It has been a while since I have seen the episode so I could be wrong.


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## Joeforbes (Jul 13, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Joeforbes said:
> 
> 
> > nickvc said:
> ...




They dissolve the remaining material in AR, it disclosed that much. I just watched it a few days ago haha. It's a very good episode. They actually said that was the only acid combination that could dissolve precious metals (which obviously isn't true). They had another "fact" that was blatantly false, but I don't recall what it was right now.


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## nickvc (Jul 14, 2011)

Forgive me if I'm wrong but won't any rhodium in the substrate also dissolve in the initial sulphuric acid treatment, if so this is hardly the ideal method in my honest opinion with the amount of solution compared to the amount of rhodium contained in it.


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## bubba (Aug 1, 2011)

nickvc said:


> Forgive me if I'm wrong but won't any rhodium in the substrate also dissolve in the initial sulphuric acid treatment, if so this is hardly the ideal method in my honest opinion with the amount of solution compared to the amount of rhodium contained in it.



Rhodium does not cooperate with even the most thought out processes, and that is a damn fact, and if you are not recovering 96-98%, you can't compete with a smelter. And a 50 kg reaction vessel? so you will run 25 converters at a time? Absolutely NOT cost effective.


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## nickvc (Aug 1, 2011)

I've seen many so called refining machines over my years in this business and wouldn't give more than a couple of hundred bucks for any of them. They are all by definition limited as to what they can and can't do, I'd still stick to beakers on heating elements or buckets with bucket heaters if your refining small scale or treating a variety of materials, been able to scale up or down easily and cheaply so long as you have a good knowledge of the refining processes takes some beating on price and in application. These machines seem to find a home with those that don't want to learn how to refine but just want to switch it on and have a finished product come out the other end, if you have money to spend on producing a top of the line catalytic convertor set up I'd rather employ Lou or 4metals to design a system, allowing for the fact that they might not have the time or inclination to do so, but at least you would know it would be flexible and work and to it's full capability.
The reality is, as Bubba stated, that in volume you just can't beat the big boys chemically refining because of the PGMs left in the substrate and he should know as I'm fairly sure he spent loads of time and money trying.


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## skippy (Aug 1, 2011)

bubba said:


> Rhodium does not cooperate with even the most thought out processes, and that is a damn fact, and if you are not recovering 96-98%, you can't compete with a smelter. And a 50 kg reaction vessel? so you will run 25 converters at a time? Absolutely NOT cost effective.



Not to contradict your basic message, but I believe 50kg would be more like 50 converters than 25, no? There's not many 2kg catalytic converters out there.


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## bubba (Aug 8, 2011)

skippy said:


> bubba said:
> 
> 
> > Rhodium does not cooperate with even the most thought out processes, and that is a damn fact, and if you are not recovering 96-98%, you can't compete with a smelter. And a 50 kg reaction vessel? so you will run 25 converters at a time? Absolutely NOT cost effective.
> ...




yep, you are right. 2.2 lb. average means 50 converters..........Still not cost effective.


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## pathfinder_05 (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi,

When people on this forum refer to weights and catalytic converters do they usually talk about the complete unit or the weight of the 'honeycomb' or PGM bearing materials?

Thanks


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## jimdoc (Aug 12, 2011)

The only weight important is the honeycomb or PGM insides of the converters.
You can't tell from the total weight of a converter how much honeycomb it contains. So the shells weight only matters in scrap weight after you de-can it, and shipping if you are buying it from Ebay. I think most shells should be 409 stainless.

Also if you are unsure if you plan on refining yourself, then you should leave them whole as you can get better prices when they can be identified. A buyer can't tell if the honeycomb is from a high grade or aftermarket if it is decanned, therefore he will try to pay as little as possible.

Jim


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## pathfinder_05 (Aug 12, 2011)

That makes sense, thanks.


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## jdat747 (Aug 17, 2011)

I was reading that exhausts systems emit small amounts of Pd over the course of use. Has anyone ever run an assay on the exhaust soot?


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