# Sodium instead of urea?



## Taro (May 10, 2011)

Hi all

Im a newbie here.
I have one question please: is it possible to use sodium /powder/ instead of urea /liquid/ to neutralise the AR? As far as I see from the formula, there should be nothing wrong if use carbonates...Please correct me if I wrong. 
Urea is a bit hard to find in my location.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 10, 2011)

Urea is what you are looking for, it is a fertalizer.


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## Taro (May 10, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Urea is what you are looking for, it is a fertalizer.


Yeah yeah I meant that. Sorry for my bad English - it is not my native lang.
Edited. :lol:


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## Anonymous (May 10, 2011)

Here is some on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-5-Kg-UREA-prills-technical-grade-/330303558653?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET&hash=item4ce7a053fd
Or you can contact R&D Laboratories Ltd at 02894 465 753


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## Taro (May 10, 2011)

mic said:


> Here is some on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-5-Kg-UREA-prills-technical-grade-/330303558653?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET&hash=item4ce7a053fd
> Or you can contact R&D Laboratories Ltd at 02894 465 753


Well, thanks for those suppliers details. 

But how about the main question? Is it (simply) possible to deactivate AR by the sodium, or not? 
Im cooking a classical recipe gold+AR+SMB, and now having over a 5 litres of green-to-black concentrated heavy liquid (as concentrated as a sugar suryp or a honey), being collected in several months. If it is possible to deactivate containing AR by the sodium - I'll give this way a try, as I have TONS of sodium just @the next building.
As far as I see, it won't harm the whole process, and the gold will still sit in the liquid after that...??

And another question: is it possible to use concentrated H2O2 (perhidrol) instead of SMB? On several forums I have read that it is, on another I've read that it is useless...Im confused now, but also have TONS of this stuff nearby.


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## Harold_V (May 11, 2011)

Taro said:


> But how about the main question? Is it (simply) possible to deactivate AR by the sodium, or not?


That is not something I've heard of. I would say no. 



> Im cooking a classical recipe gold+AR+SMB, and now having over a 5 litres of green-to-black concentrated heavy liquid (as concentrated as a sugar suryp or a honey),


From that comment, I get the idea that you have dissolved everything without addressing the base metals. Is that correct?



> And another question: is it possible to use concentrated H2O2 (perhidrol) instead of SMB?



Uhhhh-----

No!

If you're trying to precipitate gold from solution, the addition of H2O2 is the wrong thing to do. 

How much have you learned about what you're trying to do by reading this forum? Indications are you are doing pretty much everything wrong.

Harold


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## Taro (May 12, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Taro said:
> 
> 
> > But how about the main question? Is it (simply) possible to deactivate AR by the sodium, or not?
> ...


Oki doki. Will try to get some urea then.



Harold_V said:


> > Im cooking a classical recipe gold+AR+SMB, and now having over a 5 litres of green-to-black concentrated heavy liquid (as concentrated as a sugar suryp or a honey),
> 
> 
> From that comment, I get the idea that you have dissolved everything without addressing the base metals. Is that correct?


Not me, but my buddies in the nearest lab.
They had a huge jar where they collected all the "goldy-colored" cuts from electronic devices (mostly CPU's and socket's pins, covers, whole ceramic chips etc), cheap (but still containing low-karated gold) earrings\necklaces, old mobile's mainboards, gold-covered handwatches cases, etcetcets. Everything that had "gold-covered looking". Also they added some small gold nuggets they got from their previous tries.
Once they got HUGE amount of this crap (around a 10kg or something) - they just added a fresh-made AR to cover that all, and left it until AR dissolve everything (they said - 1 month, haha). Then they took out undissolved parts (mostly plastic pieces and ceramics). IF there is gold -there must be some for sure!- it is in the liquid, nowhere else it could be. They did not do anything with the solution, nor even filtering that.

More than that - they left this jar forgotten at the lab's far shell for a year or so. It is mostly evaporized by itself, and this is the state I've discovered it there - and took from them. 

That's what I have now - a blacky heavy suryp, strong acid-positive reaction, kinda smelly, neony/emerald-green with sky-blue notes if diluted by dist.water. Unfiltered, have flakes and something like white sand @the bottom of the jar, and also lots of something like reddish-brown "jelly" over the "sand". "The soup", yeah.... I expect a huge amount of copper, tin and iron in the soluion.



Harold_V said:


> How much have you learned about what you're trying to do by reading this forum? Indications are you are doing pretty much everything wrong.


Not DOING, my dear. Just ASKING prior any actions. 
Coming to this forum, I am looking the best way to deal with the soup described above. im not a professional chemist or something - but I wanna learn this thing, and now I have good chances (I think). This is why I am now reading, thinking and asking here and there. 
Still not doing of anything yet, dont worry.  

I am thinking now to dilute the whole soup, neutralize the rest of the acid, filter that and follow the classis process with SMB. Am I right in these steps? Or may someone suggest me the better way(s) dealing with that?


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## Harold_V (May 12, 2011)

Ok! I read you loud and clear. 
My advice is to put the material back on the shelf and start reading. We can hand carry you through the operation, but you won't learn much, and it's a waste of our time to continually repeat information that is readily available in print. 

Considering the method of dissolution, I am inclined to suggest to you that the material won't precipitate directly, due to an overabundance of nitric acid (Hoke discusses that issue in her book). If there isn't, it's a coincidence. 
I would also caution you that values may well remain with the solids. If the acid was consumed prior to complete dissolution of the values, (some of) the values that were in solution will have been cemented by the remaining base metals. The resulting cemented gold may or may not look like gold, so visual inspection may not suffice. If, however, there is nothing included with the solids but obvious bits of ceramic, that isn't likely to be the case. I wouldn't bet on it, however. 

The waste materials that are included with the solids will contain silver, as silver chloride. None of the material should be discarded until you understand what happens when you dissolve gold alloys. It is for that reason I am suggesting that you stop processing, and start reading. Hoke's book will answer all of your questions, assuming you digest what she teaches. 

To have dissolved everything along with the gold tends to be a mistake, especially when you're dealing with low grade wastes, which clearly is the case. It is also not a wise thing to do to include karat gold with low grade materials, as has been done in this case. 

Harold


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## Joeforbes (May 21, 2011)

Taro said:


> Hi all
> 
> Im a newbie here.
> I have one question please: is it possible to use sodium /powder/ instead of urea /liquid/ to neutralise the AR? As far as I see from the formula, there should be nothing wrong if use carbonates...Please correct me if I wrong.
> Urea is a bit hard to find in my location.



Hello Taro,

You use Urea to neutralize the AR because you only need to neutralize the nitric acid and not the hydrochloric acid, which is exactly what Urea does. You'll find that trying to neutralize the HCL along with the nitric will use a considerable amount of carbonate, which in the end is completely unnecessary. HCL alone wont dissolve the gold, so you only need to neutralize or remove the oxidizing agents in the solution to keep your precipitated gold from redissolving.

I've only been refining for a couple months now, but I've already done 27 gold precipitations. Each time I've found that I only need to add a slight amount of Urea to ready the solution to add SMB.

So, to answer your question - Yes, you can use carbonates or any neutralizing agents to neutralize the whole solution before precipitation, but you shouldn't. For this batch I would use Urea to neutralize the nitric acid, but in future batches I would recommend using the acid peroxide method to remove the base metals, collect the gold flake, and calculate the amount of Nitric and Hydrochloric acid you will need to dissolve it. This will reduce the volume of your solution, the amount of chemicals needed to dissolve the metals and neutralize the solution, and contaminates in your solution.

Research research research. And then research some more. You'll find that you will always learn something new.


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## Taro (May 24, 2011)

Thanks Joeforbes,
thanks Harold_V too.

As I am a complete newbie in this all (no jokes or sarcasms) - would someone guide me through the process of doing .....mmmm.....something valuable with "the soup" described above? 
PLEASE! Step by step...

Im not a professional chemist - but I am also not expecting for huge "WOW!"' results.
I just have collected this "the soup" for FREE, and willing to extract *even something valuable* from that all. Whatever that might be - Palladium, Iridium, Gold, Silver....Copper, Nickel or Chrome - whatever, who cares. 
The last two I might use while "electrilizing" my bike's parts. )))
I have started to read the "canonical PDF" (found on this forum) - it is great, but will take year or two with my currrent level of English.....

PS: I am able to buy some necessary chemicals on ebay (like urea or SMB) but that will tke some time to arrive to me. I am living outside of big cities, and only a few poor farmers settled down around of me. But still I have some chemical knowledge (down to DNA replication or aminoacids) - but theoretical ones, not practical.  
PPS: I may describe in details for everything I have now. Or even make some photos step-by-step or whatever.... You just need to ask me, and I'll do my best. 
PPPS: yesterday I got another gallon or to of the same liquid. Very heavy and thick emerald-green-to-black liquid. Added to the previous one, as these both were collected on the very same way. 

Thanks!


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## Joeforbes (May 24, 2011)

I myself am new this this forum, but I can tell you one thing I know for sure - No one here is going to hold your hand through the process. For good reason too. You need to research your process before you do it. There are a lot of variables that come into play, and not knowing what to expect could cause loss of values, injury, or worse. Besides, who doesn't love learning, eh?

Do you know what the "soup" contains? If not, figuring that out is step one for you.

Research different ways to determine the content of the solution. Start with using the search function for "Stannous Chloride". It is very simple to make.


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## eeTHr (May 24, 2011)

Taro---

You really should read more about recovery and refining, in order to understand what people might tell you when they are helping you. To go in blindly, it's very easy to misunderstand a step, and that could possibly result in loss of recoverable values, damage to your working place, or injury or death to you.

Recovery and refining are both processes of *separating* the metals present, either from non-metal materials or from each other. Further, it is, for PM (Precious Metals) refining, separating the base metals from the PMs and then the various PMs from each other, and usually to end up with the metalic forms of the various PMs.

It is also possible for the home or hobby refiner to recover some base metals, like copper, but refining them to the purity required for marketing can be more difficult than it is worth, unless you just use them yourself.

I think that your first step in separation would be to separate the solution from the solids. That way you can deal with each in their own applicable way.

If there is any sign of metals in the solids, then they can be dissolved and kept separate from the original solution, and processed appropriately.

If you see anything besides plastic or ceramic in the solids, then it is most likely metal chunks or powders. Especially tan or black powder would indicate that metals were, as Harold suggested the possibility of, not completely dissolved.

If you start by separating the original solution from the solids, you will need to learn two things first. 1. The best approach for dealing with very concentrated solutions which contain large portions of base metals along with PM values, which, from your description, is what you have. And 2. The best method of dissolving the remaining solids, if they do contain metals.

However, if the solids, after rinsing, show to be only ceramics and/or plastics, then they may be discarded, leaving you with just the solution to deal with in your next step.

Your next step would be learning how to precipitate just the PMs out of your solution, and leaving the base metals dissolved in the solution. That would be your primary metals separation.

Search and study: 1. Decanting solutions. And 2. Cementing PMs out of solution with copper.

If there are undissolved metals in the solids, after decanting the original solution, then search and study: Dissolving gold.

But before you do any actual processing, or even handling, of your material, read the Safety links below.

Once you have studied up on all of these things listed so far, if you are unsure about a specific step, post your questions.


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## patnor1011 (May 24, 2011)

He need to test whatever he got. He was told what was supposedly dissolved.


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## eeTHr (May 25, 2011)

patnor1011 said:


> He need to test whatever he got. He was told what was supposedly dissolved.



Good point. There have been a lot of stories on here about various stuff that was said to have gold, and turned out to not have any.

That would require a search on here for: Testing solutions for gold.


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## Taro (Jun 2, 2011)

patnor1011 said:


> He need to test


She 



eeTHr said:


> That would require a search on here for: Testing solutions for gold.


Stannum chloride solution you meant? Yeah, will prepare and test...but there surely must be some gold anyway. Nowhere else that can go from all of those CPUs and connectors - but to the liquid. No any part of the soup was thrown away, so...nowhere else that could be.


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## eeTHr (Jun 2, 2011)

Taro said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> > He need to test
> ...




No. What I meant was, "performing tests on solutions." Some newcomers think they can use stannous chloride to test metals for gold.

Sorry for the ambiguity in my statement.


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## Taro (Jun 7, 2011)

eeTHr said:


> Taro said:
> 
> 
> > patnor1011 said:
> ...


Hi eeTHr,

would you please point me to the desired topic or the detailed step-by-step instructions where could I find some info about the "performing tests on solutions" please?
Searching through thius forum, I only get over 180 irrelevant links based on these keywords.
Reading the Hoke's "Bible" will take me a year or so, based on my level of English.....well...any *direct* instructions or steps to follow? Please! :roll:


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## trashmaster (Jun 7, 2011)

hello taro

O.K. I will give you the first steps to take , Before you read the book from Mrs. hoke or anything else , here is the place to start.....

1. Go to the main INDEX and go to the Safety Section and read all you can about it......

2.GO to the Chemical section and read about the chemicals that you will be using.... 

3. Now you may proseed to mrs.HOKE"s book and learn.... 

after that please please come back and show that you have learned something about what you want to do;;;;


paul


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## Harold_V (Jun 8, 2011)

Taro said:


> Reading the Hoke's "Bible" will take me a year or so, based on my level of English.....well...any *direct* instructions or steps to follow? Please! :roll:


If you can't understand the words written in Hoke's book, your chance of understanding any guidance you glean from members of this group aren't likely to be any better. She speaks in clear, concise English, in simple terms that the layman can understand. None of us are gifted in a way that would make it any clearer, or easier to understand. That's the reason I keep harping on the subject of reading her book. 

If you must, have it translated. You won't find a better source of basic information anywhere. 

Harold


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## eeTHr (Jun 8, 2011)

Taro said:


> Hi eeTHr,
> 
> would you please point me to the desired topic or the detailed step-by-step instructions where could I find some info about the "performing tests on solutions" please?
> 
> Searching through thius forum, I only get over 180 irrelevant links based on these keywords.




Here---
Stannous Chloride Colors

And lots more, here-
Sampling / Assaying / Testing

You should read Hoke, too. It will save you time and money in the long run.


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## Taro (Jun 9, 2011)

Guys,

would you please stop chanting "LEARN" for a while, if possible? BTW I have a Master-Degree in Sciences, if that help. Yes, Im not a professional Chemist, and I have never performing PM refinery before - but I'm not so stupid to be pushed to "learn" round and round...and round. One time was OK, two times was more than enough...I already have the Basics and the Theory, and the only thing I need is the Practice (you may even write me on Chem.formulas - that is also OK and fully acceptable). 
Sorry to be so direct here, but I *already* have Hoke's pdf as I mentioned above, and of course I will read through that in case of needs. It is a big book, and reading that will take some time (most likely timeless, based on my level of Eng. and my occupation - who knows, but that will take lot of time anyway).

Thus, I have one very simple and direct question: would someone point me to the *ESSENCE* of this all please? I know about the safety, I know about the danger (and no complains will be posted here if something, of course), I will not be drinking AR for my breakfast - I promise (raising my right hand now), and I already have read some "Pls learn!!" posts for several times...may we now proceed forward? Any *direct and essential* steps to follow will be highly welcomed. 
I have "the soup" and I am willing to try the practice - any 1-2-3-done? :roll: Even something will go wrong and "the soup" become unuseful at all - who cares, I got that for free.
If not - then not.



> Here---
> Stannous Chloride Colors


Yup. But the previous replier said:
>>Stannum chloride solution you meant?
>No. What I meant was, "performing tests on solutions." Some newcomers think they can use stannous chloride to test metals for gold.
:lol: 



> And lots more, here-
> Sampling / Assaying / Testing


Thanks indeed. The most helpful post....Will read that now. In case of any questions - will post'em here.


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