# Hello, New here, think I made a mistake..



## pu_239 (Nov 29, 2014)

I didn't know exactly where to post my issue. I am currently majoring in chemistry, so I understand the chemistry behind all this. I have done very similar methods in lab many times(but not with gold).

I bought 1,300 dollars of lab equipment, one reason was to do the gold refining, the other reason was just to build my own lab. 90% of the stuff i bought isn't so much for gold recovery. 

Here's my issue, I think I paid too much for memory cards. I was hoping to make a profit, but it doesn't appear I will(based on calculations). I have searched for the last 3 days for a solid answer, I just can't find one.

1. "On average, How much gold is in 1lbs of memory cards?" (question i can't find the answer to.)
2. "If i paid too much, how much should i pay on average/lbs?" Obviously I am gaining experience in this, I know different finger boards can go for different amounts. I am just looking for a safety net figure.
3. Is the best investment in rams, or in other computer components? 
4. "Is there any problem of putting the gold fingers in to concentrated HCl, to dissolve everything except the gold. Filter it. Then hit the gold with some aqua regia, Dissolve the gold, neutralize the aqua regia then hit the solution with the SMB to crash out the gold. Filter out the gold and test the solution with SnCl2(tin chloride) to check for gold. If the test is positive, add some more SMB and repeat till the test is negative? I also have an idea for a centrifuge to take the gold out of the solution after you add the SMB more quickly. 

BTW i paid about 19 dollars a pound for the memory cards.


----------



## solar_plasma (Nov 29, 2014)

Welcome pu_239,

if you want to make a profit with small lots, you need to get e-scrap for free or almost for free. If you don't consider the time spent and the lab ware, you will often go +/- zero, if you pay what the large refineries pay and have the PMs for the net price.

HCl alone will not dissolve copper. Look for the threads about CuCl2 leach.

As far as possible we never boil PM containing solutions. If you have to, you need some kind of reflux to avoid loss.

Being a chemist will make a lot of things easier for you, but chemistry makes only 10% of the art. You can't fill a bottle, that is already full, so expect to be knowing nothing. Download Hoke, read and live it. Search for the advices given to new members. 

You have found an extraordinary place, where you will find all your questions already answered. This forum is full of people, who has done this a half lifetime professionally, full of chemists, physicists, engineers and impressive and ingenious autodidacts. If you understand this quickly, you have found a goldmine of information and helpful people.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Nov 29, 2014)

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Rule #1 for this forum is to humble yourself to knowing nothing. You will prove yourself quickly either way.

Why spend $1300 just to buy equipment you may never use?. Hopefully that money went to get a nice fume hood.
Anything else is just for show until you know exactly what you want to accomplish and what materials you will need.

Rule #1 can be identified by your brazen introduction of chemistry. Sounds like you are very intelligent. Is that book smart or life smart?
After stating this, Your problem of not being able to find yields on the memory are unnerving. I just did a search on this forum and found many posts describing yields and variances and how much to expect on memory and how to process them.

"Then *hit* the gold with some aqua regia, Dissolve the gold, *neutralize* the aqua regia then hit the solution with the SMB to *crash* out the gold. "

The above highlighted quotes from you indicate a twenties something kid that is just starting in chemistry class looking to cut corners for a quick buck. Not 1 gone through the class and ready to take on the world so to speak.

Feel intimidated, angry at how dare I? Good, sit and let it soak in a minute and then begin to realize, we speak facts and truths based on experience and learning. Be humble and you will be please at what there is to learn by all the knowledge freely shared here.

Please? and hopefully you can add your experience and we can all grow from our time here.

B.S.

Good luck and begin learning at the welcome section of the forum and it will lead you to many things and directions


----------



## heliman4141 (Nov 29, 2014)

Solar_plasma is spot on,
Ive been there done that & I didn't even waste any money on any special lab equipment other then the bare min. equipment necessary to refine & buying any stock is & was a loosing proposition period. I made some Gold but it cost me dearly financially in the long run. Bust guess is it ran me over $100 a gram or worse.  

If you were a Jeweler or owned a PC repair shop, run a E-scrap recycle yard, or worked at or ran a similar business where you end up with free scrap, then yes you can make a profit in time. If you have to buy the scrap then its simply an education in refining & a test of patience for a very small amount of Gold in the end.

Where you are at now is in the position of having to locate several sources where you can depend on reliable E-scrap or jewelry flowing constantly to you for free or almost free. That is tough today as the public has wised up to the value of these items and won't let them go freely and is probably refining or selling it themselves already & the manufacturers also now use much less Gold in their components further making the amount of scrap having to be refined doubled or worse to get the same amount of PM as one used to get when Gold was cheap back in the 80s etc....

Without some serious good connections its really hard to make any positive income refining, my suggestion is keep the day job whatever it is & enjoy the refining education, the chemistry is fun & interesting. Turning metals to salts then back again plus dealing with tin & lead makes things interesting.

First thing you will learn is how many different ways ea. different type of material must be processed so you don't end up with a mess, there is no one way. Hokes will explain this in detail.
Step cautiously tho financially until you can (hopefully) find a very reliable scrap source, otherwise you will end up with a lot of equipment sitting empty & collecting dust.

Dave


----------



## pu_239 (Nov 29, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Welcome pu_239,
> 
> if you want to make a profit with small lots, you need to get e-scrap for free or almost for free. If you don't consider the time spent and the lab ware, you will often go +/- zero, if you pay what the large refineries pay and have the PMs for the net price.
> 
> HCl alone will not dissolve copper. Look for the threads about CuCl2 leach.


I made the mistake of thinking a “gold finger” is 1 ram board(finger board + gold finger). I did my calculations based off that. You’re right (as you already know) HCl doesn’t dissolve copper. I don’t know why I said that, I probably meant Nitric acid. I am noticing a lot of sulfate is involved in these reactions. Sulfuric acid can be used to make nitric acid, and sodium metal bisulfate as well. I will look in to better sources for scrap. I think it was you who mentioned a reflux. I was planning on refluxing the HCl and the H2O2(hydrogen peroxide) mixture. In this step, I don’t see the gold coming out of solution, I don’t believe it’s necessary to do it in a reflux. It won’t turn the gold in to a gas allowing for evaporation. The questionable part is refluxing the SMB + AuCl4- solution. I just looked In to it, it’s pointless. The AuCl4- will decompose. It will result in the “opposite” reaction I want. It might be best to use an ice bath. (I need to look at a thermodynamic info on it)
Thanks for your input.


----------



## pu_239 (Nov 29, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> Hello and welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> Why spend $1300 just to buy equipment you may never use?. Hopefully that money went to get a nice fume hood.
> ...



The aqua regia comment was more of a thought, really didn’t investigate it much. In analytical chemistry, a lot of metals are separated. In General Chemsitry 2. You’re giving a solution with a mixture of metals, you have no idea what is in it, you have to separate them out and figure out what was in your solution. This was a big part of the grade. You need to know what will react and what won’t, while taking in to consideration everything in the solution. As I said, it was originally just a thought. I investigated it a little bit and I noticed SMB will react with other metals in the solution. If done correctly thought, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. You’re right, I guess my equipment is just for show right now. Kind of feel like a waste, but I’ll figure out something to do with it.

My experience? As I mentioned, I am a student, a 32yr old student (late bloomer). I have been doing inorganic chemistry (what gold recovery is) for about 2 and half years. This semester I started organic chemistry. Yes I am looking for a way to make a quick buck. 

Thanks I will check out the welcome section.


----------



## pu_239 (Nov 29, 2014)

heliman4141 said:


> Solar_plasma is spot on,
> Ive been there done that & I didn't even waste any money on any special lab equipment other then the bare min. equipment necessary to refine & buying any stock is & was a loosing proposition period. I made some Gold but it cost me dearly financially in the long run. Bust guess is it ran me over $100 a gram or worse.
> 
> If you were a Jeweler or owned a PC repair shop, run a E-scrap recycle yard, or worked at or ran a similar business where you end up with free scrap, then yes you can make a profit in time. If you have to buy the scrap then its simply an education in refining & a test of patience for a very small amount of Gold in the end.
> ...



Good advice, and I am glad someone can sympathy. I am a former computer technician, i had my own business for a little while. I can talk to some people, go round some computer stores and see if i can find anything. I will process these memory cards i got and see my % yield and prices of gold and go from there. I will tread carefully from now on. I will do something with my lab, hopefully I will break even. I will have a little money to reinvest. Electrolysis comes to mind, electro plating(gold/silver/chrome), rust removal. Even making oils comes to mind. I will figure something out. Thanks for your valuable input


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Nov 29, 2014)

Take a look at the Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum thread. Be sure to follow all the links, especially the Guided Tour link. If you follow them all, it will get you off to a good start here.

Dave


----------



## butcher (Nov 29, 2014)

pu_239,

Your chemistry background will be a help in understanding the reactions, like others have said, gold recovery and refining is something even a chemist will need to study and practice to learn, to be successful at.

I believe the forum is the best place in the world to study and learn the chemistry and art of gold recovery and refining, it is like a vast library of useful information with helpful members, to help you in your study of this science, and art. A great place to study and gain the skills needed to produce very fine gold or other precious metals.

I am glad to see another chemist join the forum, this gives us a chance to learn from your experience as a chemist, and share ideas as we learn this art together, an art that can take several lifetimes to learn just a little of all there is to know about this interesting subject.
Welcome to the forum I think your going to love it here.


----------



## solar_plasma (Nov 29, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome pu_239,
> ...



Maybe I didn't explain it very well, but you got everything wrong. I do not know,if you really are a chemist, if so, this is the best example, studying chemistry does not make a refiner _a priori_.

If you just tend to understand only what you like to hear, I will try to be more clear, listen: You have no clue about the chemistry of refining! 

This is not meant mean in any way. If you don't understand this, you will just be another one-hit wonder.

You can't fill a glass that already is full.


----------



## pu_239 (Nov 29, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > solar_plasma said:
> ...



All i see is you're "making claims" please tell me where my process is wrong...


----------



## g_axelsson (Nov 29, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> I made the mistake of thinking a “gold finger” is 1 ram board(finger board + gold finger). I did my calculations based off that. You’re right (as you already know) HCl doesn’t dissolve copper. I don’t know why I said that, I probably meant Nitric acid. I am noticing a lot of sulfate is involved in these reactions. Sulfuric acid can be used to make nitric acid, and sodium metal bisulfate as well. I will look in to better sources for scrap. I think it was you who mentioned a reflux. I was planning on refluxing the HCl and the H2O2(hydrogen peroxide) mixture. In this step, I don’t see the gold coming out of solution, I don’t believe it’s necessary to do it in a reflux. It won’t turn the gold in to a gas allowing for evaporation. The questionable part is refluxing the SMB + AuCl4- solution. I just looked In to it, it’s pointless. The AuCl4- will decompose. It will result in the “opposite” reaction I want. It might be best to use an ice bath. (I need to look at a thermodynamic info on it)
> Thanks for your input.


First of all SMB is Sodium Meta Bisulfite, not "sodium metal bisulfate", there's a huge difference between them.
Secondly, you shouldn't boil any solution with values in without some type of reflux. Not because of the reflux is needed but if you boil something the bubbles will create an aerosol that takes the values away as small droplets. The reflux catches the small drops of gold chloride and brings it back to the reaction vessel.
Third, no one has told you to boil your gold chloride + SMB. On the contrary it is better done cold as I explained in the other thread.
And finally, realize that you don't know anything about refining. If something is recommended by people that have done it, ask yourself why first, don't try to be smart and defensive and telling us that we know nothing. A humble view of the art of refining would be good. Anybody can make 99% pure gold with little training but to reach 99.95% and beyond consistently requires experience and all tricks of the trade. You will find all the tricks here at this forum.

Slow down and read the recommended book. If you are as good as you claim it shouldn't take too much time to digest and get up to speed. Honestly, so far you haven't impressed me and I'm a physicist with only physical chemistry during my university time.

The real chemistry stars of this forum is Lou and freechemist (who passed away a time ago, I really miss him). Read their posts and I think you will find some really good advices.

Göran


----------



## pu_239 (Nov 29, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > I made the mistake of thinking a “gold finger” is 1 ram board(finger board + gold finger). I did my calculations based off that. You’re right (as you already know) HCl doesn’t dissolve copper. I don’t know why I said that, I probably meant Nitric acid. I am noticing a lot of sulfate is involved in these reactions. Sulfuric acid can be used to make nitric acid, and sodium metal bisulfate as well. I will look in to better sources for scrap. I think it was you who mentioned a reflux. I was planning on refluxing the HCl and the H2O2(hydrogen peroxide) mixture. In this step, I don’t see the gold coming out of solution, I don’t believe it’s necessary to do it in a reflux. It won’t turn the gold in to a gas allowing for evaporation. The questionable part is refluxing the SMB + AuCl4- solution. I just looked In to it, it’s pointless. The AuCl4- will decompose. It will result in the “opposite” reaction I want. It might be best to use an ice bath. (I need to look at a thermodynamic info on it)
> ...



Okay thanks, I do have ADD(Attention Deficit Disorder) that's the mistake of the Sodium Meta Bisulfate mix up. I do have a reflux apparatus as I mentioned. You're right about the aerosol. Everything does have have a k value(solubility constant). The gold would dissolve a very tiny bit. Evaporation can cause it boil off driving the reaction to take off more gold. I see what you mean. I'll do it in a reflux, and everything else as directed. I know people have been doing this for decades. I am sure many chemist have been involved who are a lot more experienced than I am. As recommended, I'll just sit back and try to learn what I can. I have investigated a bit on a few reactions, there are some things I have (forgetten/not taken in to consideration). To write out the reactions and do them correctly 100%, is a bit math heavy, and as I said, it has been a while since i done these types of calculations. I have just been throwing ideas up in to the air, but when i take a closer look, actually do the calculations, the reactions don't work out how I expected them to. I'll just be patient, and as I said, sit back, learn absorb and so on. I guess the impatiences is messing me up.

Thanks again


----------



## solar_plasma (Nov 29, 2014)

Seems that you get the right track. Now, try to forget everything you learned, just for a while, forget constants and solubility products and all the theory you believe to know. That will make it much easier to accommodate this new subject, - spoken in terms of the psychology of learning.

In some months your theoretical background might become useful, for you as much as for us.


----------



## pu_239 (Nov 30, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Seems that you get the right track. Now, try to forget everything you learned, just for a while, forget constants and solubility products and all the theory you believe to know. That will make it much easier to accommodate this new subject, - spoken in terms of the psychology of learning.
> 
> In some months your theoretical background might become useful, for you as much as for us.



Yes i understand, the "real world" is different than in the lab. I will just try to learn from more experienced members.

I just wanted to make a general update of my situation. I made a computer program, i know it's not recommended to buy on ebay. There is some profit there, just have to look for it, it's not much profit but it's something(a start). The program i made back calculates, from todays gold price. It calculated 55% of the gold price. So I am paying 55% for the gold of the current gold price. I am also going to sell the gold for 80% of the current market value. It pretty much tells me, how much i should pay(for bidding), if prices are too high for the "buy me now" it also tells me how much I will sell my gold for, and it tells me my profit after everything is over, it even considers shipping. 

I also contacted the seller of the ram cards I bought, I pretty much told him, I will pay 95 dollars for the 10lbs of memory cards(I payed 175 + shipping). If he's not interested I'l just send them back. The profit over all is expected to be around 12 dollars(not much) but this doesn't account for the fingerless boards I plan to sell. I play to reinvest half of whatever my profit is on ech batch. So this thing will grow exponentially. I also plan to test yield for sims cards and golden pins, make a computer program for those too. I think everything worked out.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Nov 30, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> I also contacted the seller of the ram cards I bought, I pretty much told him, I will pay 95 dollars for the 10lbs of memory cards(I payed 175 + shipping). If he's not interested I'l just send them back.


So you won the auction by bidding $175.00, but now you want the seller to accept $95.00 because now you feel you bid too much? How is that the sellers fault? Unless he misrepresented the memory cards, you have no right to change the deal or expect him to take roughly half of what you agreed to pay. Why should the seller have to pay for your over exuberance? He could have sold them for $170.00 to the next highest bidder.

Dave


----------



## solar_plasma (Nov 30, 2014)

Not the way to treat people. Not the way to find customers who will come back to you.


----------



## AndyWilliams (Nov 30, 2014)

If you plan on gaining respect on this board, you'll honor your agreement with that seller, rather than strong-arming him into a better deal for yourself. This is a board of integrity. If you cannot honor your deal with him, then all on this board should take that as an indication of how you will deal with them. You have received an education on those cards, consider your loss as payment for that education.


----------



## kurtak (Nov 30, 2014)

AndyWilliams said:


> If you plan on gaining respect on this board, you'll honor your agreement with that seller, rather than strong-arming him into a better deal for yourself. This is a board of integrity. If you cannot honor your deal with him, then all on this board should take that as an indication of how you will deal with them. You have received an education on those cards, consider your loss as payment for that education.



Well said Andy :!: 

Kurt


----------



## butcher (Nov 30, 2014)

I agree with Andy, sometimes we make a mistake in business, and we should not charge the customer for our own mistakes, your honor is worth more than money.

Education is not always free or cheap, and education is worth paying for, even when we would rather not (pay for our stupidity), there are times in paying is how we learn our lesson.

If you do not honor a bargain with this deal, how are we to trust you will honor a deal with us?


----------



## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> I didn't know exactly where to post my issue. I am currently majoring in chemistry, so I understand the chemistry behind all this. I have done very similar methods in lab many times(but not with gold).


For what it's worth, listen to what's being said to you. You're no different from anyone else that come to this forum and want to do everything *INSTANTLY* because of what they already know. As you might see, your learning and )or) training will mean nothing here if you can't/don't apply those principle's you've learned. Chemistry is a big PLUS for you, but it means nothing here if you don't know the chemistry of breaking down metals (putting into a liquid form) and want to jump in to refining gold, silver and other metals. It very well may be as easy as you think, but you have to be ready to implement the experiments (Hoke's book), and learn from there.



pu_239 said:


> I bought 1,300 dollars of lab equipment, one reason was to do the gold refining, the other reason was just to build my own lab. 90% of the stuff i bought isn't so much for gold recovery.


 Again, you're explaining that you say you know chemistry, but know nothing about gold chemistry. The reason I'm saying this is because if you did know about gold chemistry, would would have all you need to refine gold, being as though you spent $1,300 worth of equipment, whereas it took me about a year or so to slowly add to my equipment arsenal, but paying less than $500 for my setup. I'm not saying you paid much for your setup, but I'm thinking that if you did pay that much for your setup, SHOULD be in the position to refine gold right at this very moment, for what you have.

Make the best of the equipment you've bought because it may very well server to be a help mate for you.




pu_239 said:


> Here's my issue, I think I paid too much for memory cards. I was hoping to make a profit, but it doesn't appear I will(based on calculations). I have searched for the last 3 days for a solid answer, I just can't find one.


If your main thread is about you paid too much for R.A.M. sticks, then fine... you've learned a lesson. Yeah, you may have paid too much, but suck it up and refine what you can and your loss is lowered. Yes, they have gold in and on them. Go get it, and if you're keeping notes, you'll know what to pay for the the next time you come across them. But, in the meantime.... that was YOUR mistake. Not no one on this forum (I hope note), or someone forced you or you did see that part, or understand that other part. You bought them and they're yours. Refine them and LEARN from this experience. OK?

I paid $230 for 10 Pentium Pro Ceramic CPU's and guess what?.... at the time of the stock gold prices, My twice refined gold was worth only $126 at most. I bought them off of the video assumptions that there was at least up to 1 -3g per cpu. How wrong I was. Well, not me, but the other(s) that say so. FACT. I refine and I take notes. I compare my notes with others and then if I refine the same again, I'll come to the actual estimated yields of gold bearing items.

Do your own yields. You now have those R.A.M. sticks to refine. Show us the yields and maybe we can all learn about the yields even more on anything we even think about wanting to refine.... WWAAAYYYYYYY before we purchase them. I learned about Pentium Pro's. I KNOW what they're worth and how much gold is in them. I do need to go for the possible silver and palladium too. Oh well, another thread for that.



pu_239 said:


> 1. "On average, How much gold is in 1lbs of memory cards?" (question i can't find the answer to.)
> 2. "If i paid too much, how much should i pay on average/lbs?" Obviously I am gaining experience in this, I know different finger boards can go for different amounts. I am just looking for a safety net figure.
> 3. Is the best investment in rams, or in other computer components?
> 4. "Is there any problem of putting the gold fingers in to concentrated HCl, to dissolve everything except the gold. Filter it. Then hit the gold with some aqua regia, Dissolve the gold, neutralize the aqua regia then hit the solution with the SMB to crash out the gold. Filter out the gold and test the solution with SnCl2(tin chloride) to check for gold. If the test is positive, add some more SMB and repeat till the test is negative? I also have an idea for a centrifuge to take the gold out of the solution after you add the SMB more quickly.
> ...



*Answer no#1*. I can find that answer EVERYWHERE on this forum. Different people have different yields. That's where you come in. You do your own R.A.M. sticks and you post the yields. By doing that, you are adding to the yield list and when combined with other yields, it'll be easier to give an "approximate" yield. Do your own and tell us what YOU yielded. It's that simple.

I trust the other yields too, but I keep on thinking about this so-true saying, *"Trust, but VERIFY"*

*Answer to no#2*. Read no#1. What you yield, and compared with other yields should give you a close indication of what you should pay to obtain any of the R.A.M. sticks or any other precious metal bearing item.

*Answer to no#3.* Although there are different opinions on that question, the best way to find out by refining different material, keeping notes of the times and other aspects and you'll soon see that each member has a different niche item they would rather refine over the other members' item's. It's all in what makes you feel comfortable the most and time and also that the yields are greater in return(s).
*
Answer to no#4*. The recommended way for removing fingers from boards are AP. You can, however use AR. But, if you are just wanting the gold fingers to flake away from the liquid and float, then the AP method should be used. If you cleaned and stripped your material well, you could go straight to AR.

You will see that to do one refining of a certain metal, there are more than one way to do it. So, although everyone has different methods of recovery, I would do 1st, what has been tried and proven effective, and 2nd, try other methods only *AFTER READING AND UNDERSTANDING* what you're doing.

*DO NOT ALTER* what works for you until you learn the complete process being done another way.


Kevin


----------



## the iron dwarf (Dec 1, 2014)

to pu_239
even if you can return all the goods to the seller in exactly the same condition they sent them to you in and pay all fees and costs ( ebay and paypal fees here add up to about 20% on average ), all the postage both ways I would still consider you were in the wrong.
either as an auction or a buy it now it can only be something else if it is *not as described* and if that was the case you should have returned it un touched


----------



## pattt (Dec 1, 2014)

testerman said:


> Answer to no#4[/b]. The recommended way for removing fingers from boards are AP. You can, however use AR. But, if you are just wanting the gold fingers to flake away from the liquid and float, then the AP method should be used. If you cleaned and stripped your material well, you could go straight to AR.
> Kevin



If you meant that putting close cut fingers or ram sticks "if you cleaned them and stripped them from other components" in A.R. is ok .

Sorry, I don't think so, putting clean cut fingers or cleaned ram sticks in A.R. will result in a loss, because some of the resulting AuCl will get sucked up in the remaining pieces of fiber boards.

Pattt

Edit : added,: in A.R.


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 1, 2014)

I share Butcher's sentiments in both posts he has made.

Welcome to the forum, as a chemist you can look at things in a different way to the majority of us laymen. You can also learn a lot about techniques from the guys here that will dovetail in with your chemistry knowledge nicely.

Unlike some other I think you have done the right thing buying good equipment. It will set you in good stead if used properly, so apply what is willingly given here to your chemist's mind and good equipment and I am sure that in no time you'll be having a lot of safe, productive fun. 

I concur completely about the deal you have just done. You bid too much, but pay the bill, don't mess the guy around and learn from your mistakes. You need to stand behind your deals. If you get it wrong, then pay up, take your knocks and move on. Experience will help you make less mistakes.

I disagree with the comments that suggest that to make a profit you effectively need to get your product for nothing. I'd prefer to take the approach that you need to know WHICH product has good yields and is worth paying for. Again, this will come from a combination of first hand experience and some clever forum searching. Don't always believe yield data unless it is corroborated with another source. People have a tendency to keep quiet about things they don't want others to pick up on. There are some "strange" sets of yield data round for various things so be careful.

Your early days will cost you money. Accept that and look upon it as an apprenticeship. As you get better you will make purer gold, and start to make money. 

Enjoy

Jon


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 1, 2014)

pattt said:


> Sorry, I don't think so, putting clean cut fingers or cleaned ram sticks in A.R. will result in a loss, because some of the resulting AuCl will get sucked up in the remaining pieces of fiber boards.



Wise words, Pattt.
There you go, I probably lost even more gold in my first batch than I ever even knew. Although they went in still wet and I rinsed pretty well afterwards, there will still be some loss.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 2, 2014)

Thanks for the replies, 

I see it like this, ebay is a business. They do have a money back guarantee so I see no problem with the email i sent the seller. If you buy something at a store and if you have issues or it's not what you expected you take it back. 

If I bought something from someone on the street, or from someone on a forum or just out at a junk yard. Yes it's pretty obvious you have to stick to your word, a deal is a deal that's the bottom line. I bought some shoes that where too tight a few weeks ago from this guy i know. I didn't go to him asking for a refund, i know a deal is a deal and that's it, he even asked me... "You want your money back?" I told him no because i honored our deal. If he said, "i have a 14 day return policy" then that's another story.

But the seller and I came to a reasonable deal. He told me, "If i knew you where going to use it for gold extraction I would have sold it to you cheaper. The best I can do is 110 dollars + shipping. If you want to return it, I understand." I could have returned it but I didn't think it was right, so I didn't. He also told me he has sold over 500lbs worth of ram. I told him my goals/plans and how much i think i'll need a week and if he could supply my demands, he said, "i can't promise anything, but i do buy ram, and the market fluctuates, sometimes i have some, sometimes i don't." I plan to do business with him in the future, if I can't find a deal I am looking for (based on my program i made) i will go to him to buy some(if he has any). I also found a seller who is willing to pay 95% of the market value of gold. I was shooting to sell it for 80% of the market value. So over all, between everyone and everything, seems like things worked out ok.

I also plan to try to extact gold my way with 1lbs of ram. I believe my way would be faster than the Peroxide based method. I will calculate my yield of that and compare it to the standard peroxide method, see if i get roughly the same yield.


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 2, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> If you buy something at a store and if you have issues or it's not what you expected you take it back.
> 
> If I bought something from someone on the street, or from someone on a forum or just out at a junk yard. Yes it's pretty obvious you have to stick to your word.


Do you feel that only a guy running a shop with higher overheads deserves to get stiffed with, in essence, you changing your mind? Or is he just a softer target?
If it's faulty or not what it is purported to be then that is reasonable, regardless of the vendor's shopfront status. But finding it cheaper somewhere else afterwards does not cut it.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 3, 2014)

I didn't see all the replies before my last post. 

@testerman, I agree with pretty much everything you said. As I mentioned above, I made a program to calculate profit. It's just a rough estimate right now based on current figures i seen around. But I will of course do my own yield and adjust my program for that. I know that 1,300 dollars for gold refinery is a lot to spend. I know 90% of what i bought isn't necessary for gold refinery. But I am majoring in biochemistry/chemistry, so I thought it would be nice to have my own lab. I do have some ideas on how to use what i bought to increase the speed of the refining process, but as of now it's just speculation until i actually do it. I will document everything very well, as if I was in a lab. As I also said, I am going to try my own method of recovery with 1lbs and see if I get a similar yield. If my method works it would be a lot faster. 

I think i mentioned above, our lab final for general chemistry was they give you a solution of various metals, you have no idea what was in the solution. You had to figure out what was in your solution and this is done by separating all the metals from one another. So yes, I do have experience in metal separation. I will do 90% of the ram i bought with the standard method of recovery. the 10% is just to test my own method. I have learned this is a learning process as many have said. My first thought was a "get rich quick" method. But, based on everything i realized that's not going to happen. I see this as a part time job. But i like doing chemistry, so it's not like i am really working, it's mostly just for fun.

@patt I didn't know what A.R. method was, but i looked it up. Yeah that was exactly my plan. But I see the problem as you discussed. You made me realize that the A.R. method may not be the best method. My plan overall was to do the A.P. method in a reflux. That pretty much heats up the solution increasing the speed of the reaction, but the reflux avoids evaporation. But I see that it might break the gold flakes and I will end up in the same situation with the A.R. method. It might work if i keep the temperature below boiling. At the end of the day for me, it just boils down to testing and seeing the results.

ETA: was thinking about the A.R. method. I guess for me it really boils down to the volume of gold I can produce. I heard of people waiting 6 days for the A.P. method. Lets say I do the A.P. method 2x a week and i produce about 2g a week. If I use the the A.R method and can produce 1.5g every 2 days. That's 5.25g a week. I might be producing less per overall method, but I would make more money if i can produce more of it over the same length of time.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 3, 2014)

You just want to avoid, that the gold dissolves, and it will, if you use H2O2 instead of using an air bubbler, especially in a warm solution. Even air in a too hot solution might do this. Not a big problem, if you are very familiar with CuCl2 leach. If you have the choice it is always better to be able to see the gold. But okay, you need to learn the hard way :mrgreen: and you may have the knowledge to do so. 

Though it would be more comfortable first to learn the proper ways to do things. Many of your ideas would vanish and give you more time for useful experiments.


----------



## joekbit (Dec 3, 2014)

testerman

welcome aboard. Do you have Hokes book? Im new to this as well and one thing I learned real fast was to pull the cotton from my ears and stuff it in my mouth. That s not meant to be harsh. I am currently reading Hokes for the 3rd time. I saw one of your posts, at least I believe it was you, on expected yields. As others have said, it varies. 

Some things to think about are weights. For example, I have a neighbor who gave me some memory cards. the first thing I did was weigh them. The double sided cards were 26 grams, the single sided were 13 grams. So taking this info I can now estimate just what people are selling. Someone says I have 5 lbs of double sided ram, well do the math. How many cards is that? This will also vary based on the manufacturer and type. As you can see a lot of homework is needed to develop averages. That's what I have spent a lot of time thinking about.

Another thing to consider when you see cut board fingers for sale is how much board material is with the fingers. This will affect the number of actual fingers in a given weight. Lots of variables

This week I will begin buying scrap, RAM boards only, I'm not going to process any of it yet. Main purpose is to develop weight to quantity ratios. What do I expect? No idea. When I process them and look at all that info as a whole then I will have a bit of an idea. But the variables will always be there.

Noting ventured nothing gained. If I break even I will be happy. What I learn will help me generate positive numbers in the future. One question I will ask of any seller is this. How many boards is there? If they cant or will not answer then its' likely I'm not going to buy from them. I can understand if a person had 100 pounds and did not want to give me a count. But most of what you see on E Bay for example, is 5 to 10 pound lots.

For now I going with the lowest yields I've seen based on 100 fingers. I will be basing my purchase price on that until I develop my own set of numbers.

I spent the last 3 months reading and experimenting with very small quantities to get a feel for the processes and develop what I call my proof sets. Hokes calls them acquaintance experiments.

good luck

be safe


----------



## pattt (Dec 3, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> ETA: was thinking about the A.R. method. I guess for me it really boils down to the volume of gold I can produce. I heard of people waiting 6 days for the A.P. method. Lets say I do the A.P. method 2x a week and i produce about 2g a week. If I use the the A.R method and can produce 1.5g every 2 days. That's 5.25g a week. I might be producing less per overall method, but I would make more money if i can produce more of it over the same length of time.



so you are willing to throw away 2,5 grams every 10 days :?:
maybe better to use the time spend at the CuCl2 leach, to read some posts on the forum and some pages in Hoke's book.

pattt


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2014)

joekbit said:


> testerman
> 
> welcome aboard. Do you have Hokes book? Im new to this as well and one thing I learned real fast was to pull the cotton from my ears and stuff it in my mouth. That s not meant to be harsh. I am currently reading Hokes for the 3rd time. I saw one of your posts, at least I believe it was you, on expected yields. As others have said, it varies.
> 
> ...


I see a few mistakes with what you wrote, and the first one is you start off your reply with my username. I believe you're directing this to the original poster? I hope so.

Also, when you wrote


joekbit said:


> This week I will begin buying scrap, RAM boards only, I'm not going to process any of it yet. Main purpose is to develop weight to quantity ratios. What do I expect? No idea. When I process them and look at all that info as a whole then I will have a bit of an idea. But the variables will always be there.



Once you start gathering material, plus taking notes at the same time, you better have an idea of what to expect. At least use other information from others to guide you, but you, do your own datasheet. You should expect to see weight data from starting material down to stripped down material, all the way to the melted material. That's what you should expect. You should expect to recover gold, or whatever you're after, if the material contains it. My point is simply to have an idea of what to expect, even if it's on the lowest yield scale.

Until you have actually refined R.A.M. sticks before (the black chips too), I would definitely get an idea of the yields first. 

[Example]You don't want to collect them and after you've paid $1,000 for 100 lbs of them and find out later that you'll only recover 17g of gold.

That's one of the reasons that ANY yield data I find from ANY member, I compile them with the data from the same material and I do my own yields, and then I have a pretty good idea of what I can expect. Oh, the mistakes I made along the way by over paying for items I never touched before and simply relying on information that wasn't remotely close to actual yields.

I've processed probably about 20 lbs of R.A.M. so far, (fingers only), but I still have about 5 lbs of chips to do. 

And speaking of chips, since you're wanting just weight yields for now, make sure after you weigh the R.A.M., you take off the MLCC's and weigh them, and take off the black chips and weigh them too, all separately. That will help you on your yields too because each of those other items contain precious metals in them. That's money.

If possible, buy you at least five (5) quadrille Composition Books. "5 Quadrille" means 5 squares equal 1 inch. I keep my notes in different books. It makes my notations easier to find.... For example, I have a book marked "Gold", one marked "Silver" one marked "Palladium" etc.. You can do a book that is marked "R.A.M. Sticks" and everything R.A.M. can be in just that one book, regardless of the metals you refine. You can have a book called "Yields" and that book can be of all the metals you refined and the yields you recorded in different sections of the book.. You mark them as you see fit, but if you document all you're working with in book form, you'll have notations that you know are accurate to your own working and you'll definitely know from that what something is worth in value to you.

The more yield data you collect and do for yourself, the more accurate you can be to determining how much precious metals is in a particular item. From the data I collected from MLCC's, I should have approximately $400 in palladium and some silver too. At this point, I don't know because I never processed them before. But I'm collecting them and they're piling up too. From what I've read, MLCC's should bear approximately 3% - 5% of it's weight in Palladium. I'll find out one day when I start to process them. Since I do have 1lb of them already, that's what I'm going to process all at once.

On an ending note, make sure you read up on yields before you buy something or ask someone here and I'm sure you'll quite a few answers to help you make an informed decision. Many members here have refined for such a very long time that it will be wise to listen to their advice.

Good Luck!

Kevin


----------



## joekbit (Dec 3, 2014)

Thanks Kevin

I do have a good idea on the fingers as far as expectation. One location that seems some what obscure, or may seem to be, is the photo gallery. There are numerous posts there telling users just what was processed to produce the buttons and ingots displayed. As far as quantity, my plan is to start small "no auctions" . I will be looking at 5 to 10 lbs at a time with fixed prices.

I had to come back and edit / add some more. Again Thanks Kevin. What I have been doing is browsing prices then coming back to the forums and digging for answers. Main question " is this too much money" , and here is where I find the answers. Up until now I have not even had the funds to buy materials. 

I just bought some nitric acid, SMB, Beakers, sodium nitrite for (Steves cold nitric formula) and a jewelers scale 1/10 gram increment. I'm looking at crucibles and decided to get some for simple torch melting and for a furnace. I'm going to make my own furnace (coffee can size ) but I don't want to do that till I have my graphite crucibles so I know how big the port needs to be. So far I spent just under 200 dollars.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 3, 2014)

pattt said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > ETA: was thinking about the A.R. method. I guess for me it really boils down to the volume of gold I can produce. I heard of people waiting 6 days for the A.P. method. Lets say I do the A.P. method 2x a week and i produce about 2g a week. If I use the the A.R method and can produce 1.5g every 2 days. That's 5.25g a week. I might be producing less per overall method, but I would make more money if i can produce more of it over the same length of time.
> ...



A.P method = 2g a week = 77.60 dollars a week.
A.R method = 5.25g a week = 203 dollars a week. 

I read hokes book, didn't find much that's too appealing, just the things in the end that talks about where to sell. Everything else just seems like basic chemistry.

The numbers above our just theoretical, i know that nothing is certain untill i try it. As I said I will do tests and stuff to see what will be best for me. 

i will reply to everyone else later, got a big test tomorrow.


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2014)

pattt said:


> testerman said:
> 
> 
> > Answer to no#4[/b]. The recommended way for removing fingers from boards are AP. You can, however use AR. But, if you are just wanting the gold fingers to flake away from the liquid and float, then the AP method should be used. If you cleaned and stripped your material well, you could go straight to AR.
> ...


Good point there. But I am thinking this way now that you mentioned the AR soaking up in the boards. Have this been done, because I have a theory.

*1. Have this been done once?* A person took 1 lb of each R.A.M. sticks (2 lbs total) and put one 1lb in AP and let it lift the foils, and recover what is there, and compare it to this below..

*[THEORY]*
With the fingers in just HCL, enough to cover them, put it on low heat and let it heat the container for about an hour or so. I'm thinking an hour or even longer would soak enough HCL throughout the finger board and prevent any more solutions from absorbing in it.

Then, while on low heat, add the HNO3 to the solution to make the AR and dissolve the gold, without it even entering into the boards because of the "soaking in solution" process. And then pour, rinse, drop, dry and melt to compare with the other batch from AP.

I'm thinking if done that way, since the board is soaked all the way through, the gold would just dissolve and not get absorbed into the fiber board, making the yields pretty much the same. If the AR absorb into the boards, I think it would be minimal being that the HCL already soaked it up. If my theory is the way I hope it could be, then the AR would be faster than AP. 

Unless I know for a fact it's been done, I'll do it myself once I get enough fingers to process. I just can't see much, if any of gold loss doing it that way. But remember I said it's just a theory. Nothing concrete to compare it to.

Kevin


----------



## butcher (Dec 3, 2014)

"I read hokes book, didn't find much that's too appealing, just the things in the end that talks about where to sell. Everything else just seems like basic chemistry."



pu_239,

The problem you will have, as I see it is just that, thinking you know the basic chemistry, and in that you will not learn what Hoke's teaches until you start loosing your gold, in doing those basic chemistry reactions.

Maybe then you will be willing to go back and reread and study Hoke's book, and learn the basic principles of the chemistry involved in recovery and refining gold from Hoke's book.

Someone who does not know, (and knows it), is easy to teach, they have a great opportunity to learn.

Someone who already knows it (or everything) will be handicapped by what they think they already know, not being able to learn, (even the very simple basic principles so important to their success).

I suggest rereading Hoke's book, the lessons learned from her book are not obvious as they seem, from reading the pages, they can come from the overall study, and understanding of the principles of recovery and refining, an overall understanding of her book and what it teaches.
Although the simple experiment's are a great source of understanding the reactions and many of the basic principles, and will be very helpful in understanding many of the problems you will face when you do begin to work in recovery or refining of precious metals, the testing experiment's will be helpful, to help you know where your values are, and where they are not.

I have several fields of work I do, (mechanical, electrical, electronics, boiler man, HVAC, and several others, besides my hobby of refining) and even after working in these fields for many years, I always spend time reviewing and learning the basic principles involved in these, and always go back to the basics for more study in them to get a better understanding.
Many times understanding of the simple basic principle will be more helpful in solving a problem than understanding the very complex formula or reaction to a problem.

The principles are the foundation.
Understanding them give you a strong foundation in understanding, without understanding the very basic principles you are working blindfolded, or handicapping yourself.

Hoke's book is a great place to learn the principles needed in this field of work.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 3, 2014)

pu_239
10% of Hoke is chemistry, 90% is craftsmanship.
Knowing the basic chemistry makes you knowing 10%. Though, when I look at, what chemistry you have assumed and written until now, you don't even know 1%. Listen to butcher or learn the hard way. 

I can hardly believe that ignorance is what you have learned in your scientific education.


----------



## MGH (Dec 3, 2014)

Just to add to Butcher’s wise words above (and now Solar’s who posted before I could get this in)…

… and I mean this as advice, not solely to tear down, though that is the intent, in part…

Pu_239,

As I see it, you are not a chemist. I am a chemist – it says so on my business cards. I’ve been in my career now, getting paid for the day to day work that I do, for more than a decade. I’ve learned much in my college courses, and even more in my real world experience. I work with lab equipment that makes your $1300 investment look like the smear of mosquito’s butt on a windshield. The knowledge and experience I’ve been so fortunate to gain has SLIGHTLY reduced the slope of the learning curve that I have gone through in precious metals refining. There is so much that you don’t know about in gold recovery and refining, and you don’t even know it yet.

I would love to be able to spend a few days in practical refining exercises with any one of the more experienced members on this forum. I think that so far I’ve learned maybe about 2% of what I could learn on this forum. There is so much here that you will NEVER encounter during your college education.

My advice to you, very similar to what many members give to other new members: slow down, read read read, shut up a little bit, humble yourself, appreciate the free knowledge that is here, take some Tylenol for that gold fever that you have, stop doing calculations until you’ve done some acquaintance experiments and small batches, then slow down again.

Best of luck


----------



## Shark (Dec 4, 2014)

I am no chemist, nor am I overly smart. What I have learned over the past year or so from this forum is the fact that I know even less than I thought I did. Those experiments that Hoke mentions in her book are way more useful than can be imagined. If you happen to work with escrap, they can teach you the way out (quicker and easier than trial and error) when you "just can't get it work". A good example, when your drop don't drop even when you do everything just like the drop that worked. Even jewelry most often won't have the same make up even though two pieces may be marked as the same karat. There must be a million things that can vary from lot to lot of electronic scrap. (I am pretty sure I have found about that many my self  ) No matter how smart a person is, there is always room to learn, especially from the people who have "been there, done that". All one needs to do is open their mind and let that extra knowledge soak in.

Good Luck, I hope everything goes well for you.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 4, 2014)

Many aspects taught by Hoke I first understood after reading the senior refiner's posts about those. Harold has done a great job translating those to us noobs in his powerfully eloquent words.

And still, even we read this over and over we get exited each time we try this in practice and first, doing it exactly that way, then we understand the wisdom for real.

Washing is not the same as washing and to perform and to read a stannous test from the complexity of variables of a dirty solution is an art of its own.

School books do cast a light on simplified and isolated systems. In reality nothing is simple.


----------



## kurtak (Dec 4, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> I read hokes book, didn't find much that's too appealing,



And that seems to be the case with those here are the forum that have been trying to help you as well --- Sooooo - why don't you just stop wasting your time & our time & just get on with it & do it --- after all you are paying for the education that clearly puts you way ahead of us --- so put that education to work - get it done - stop asking questions about something you clearly already know everything about with your vast knowledge & education

Based on the title of this thread --- "Hello, New here, think I made a mistake" --- I would suggest that the next time that happens - go ask your Chem teachers - that's what you pay them for - you clearly don't like the answers you get here

I am done reading anything you post from now on - its a waste of my time & I certainly will not waste my time answering any questions you have - that would only result in you telling me how much more you know because you are going to school for chemistry 

Edit; to say --- my point pu_239 is you are letting what you know get in the way of what you don't know - which in turn is wasting both your time & the time of those trying to help you :!: :!: :!: 

Kurt


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 4, 2014)

I read all the replies, they where all good, I do appreciate them. 

I take back "I read the book." I skimmed through it. School is pretty intense right now so don't have much time. Finals are in 2 weeks, had a test today, one next week, then 2 finals. Then I am out for winter break. I will read the book more carefully. I was just looking for the electro chemistry section in the book. I really didn't see much on it (unless I missed it). 

I processed 2lbs of my batch today, 2lbs out of 10. I got some questions i had answered. Total time it took me was about 5hrs. i put the fingers in H2O2(Hydrogen peroxide) and HCl(Mauriatic Acid), I put it on a hot plate and warmed it up with a watch glass on top of it, to minimize evaporation. I had a thermometer in there too, I ran it in between 50-60 degree's Celsius(122-140 degree's Fahrenheit). I had a 50/50 mixture, total time on the hot plate was about 4hrs, the gold flakes came off the fingers. 

This is what i started with(71g fingers)






Here was my set up. 





This was about an hour in to it. 





This is the finish product(before refining).









I don't have nitric acid to refine it. I am waiting on some sulfuric acid, I am going to use it to make my own nitric acid for the aqua regia. I am not sure what's up with my tin(II) chloride. It doesn't react with elemental gold does it? Just with AuCl4-? I put some on the vapor(the bottom of the watch glass that was on top of the beaker) to test, but I got a negative result. I put the Tin(II) Chloride on some actual gold and still tested negative. When we used it in lab it worked with ions. So I am assuming it doesn't react with elemental gold? Or did I make it wrong? I thought maybe it might do a redox reaction. 

I had 10g of Tin(II)Chloride and I added 150ml. The directions said, for 2g of Tin(II) Chloride add 30mL of 32% HCl. I used the HCl from Ace, the one with the green label I believe. I see that's the one most people use, I thought i read some where it was 32%, so I really didn't look much in to it.

Either way it was fun. I liked it, I kind of see it as a part time job, but if you like what you're doing you're not really working. The worst part was just cutting the fingers off. I got a new pair of good tin snips, I had some older ones, that where small, but I bought the bigg scissor kind, those ones worked better. I take a slice out of my palm.


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 5, 2014)

I may not know the correct "chemisty" description, but the purpose of the stannous chloride is to precipitate gold out of solution as a colloid, which will be violet. It won't work on elemental gold metal or gold powder, no matter how fine, only on gold in solution that does not still have an overpowering oxidiser (excess nitric) that's keeping it dissolved, or redissolving it.


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 5, 2014)

Also, if you used 50/50 HCl and H2O2, that's way too much peroxide and you've probably dissolved a fair bit of your gold too. If you "stock pot" that green solution, you'll be able to recover it later. In fact, that green solution is perfect as it is for recovering your next batch of foils.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 5, 2014)

Reread your school books about redox processes and then ask this question again, if stannous would react with Au0....holy...


----------



## yar (Dec 5, 2014)

You do not need nitric to refine the foils. You can use HCL and Cl. Check out this linq by Lazersteve for the AP process. It should cover everything you need to know.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12914

If you use HCL/CL to refine your foils be careful to keep the Cl to a minimum. A capful at a time is recommended to dissolve the foils. Also be sure to allow the solution to gas off the Cl prior to precipitation or you will have problems getting all the gold to drop.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 5, 2014)

Thanks jason and yar, I will reuse the CuCl2 solution, i just trimed 2 more lbs and put them in the solution. I will use less H2O2 when i make it again. I was wondering about the ICC on the boards. Should i process them myself or is it better to just sell them to boardsort.com? I was also curious how you would process ICC chips, can someone point me in the right direction?

@solar, I know how to figure it out, I just thought it was better if i asked.

ETA: Yar, that was a good link.


----------



## richard2013 (Dec 5, 2014)

use the search function for chips processing its all here.


----------



## byte-tech (Dec 5, 2014)

Im a beginner myself so dont quote me but 50/50 seems too much. As for the ICs search for the patnor101 guide, he has a long thread about that.

Uresti.


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 5, 2014)

The 50/50 mixture is way too much of a mixture. From the picture you showed, you only needed about one (1) cap full of peroxide. No more. 

If you want proof you used too much peroxide?, simply take some of the gold flakes and put them in that solution and it will get dissolved into the solution. That's how you'll know you added too much peroxide. Heat or no heat will result in the same thing happening to the foils. They'll dissolve.


Kevin


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 5, 2014)

testerman said:


> The 50/50 mixture is way too much of a mixture. From the picture you showed, you only needed about one (1) cap full of peroxide. No more.
> 
> If you want proof you used too much peroxide?, simply take some of the gold flakes and put them in that solution and it will get dissolved into the solution. That's how you'll know you added too much peroxide. Heat or no heat will result in the same thing happening to the foils. They'll dissolve.
> 
> ...



I do believe it. I read the post that one of the members above posted. I said, "it was good" or something along those lines. That post had a good tip. To process everything in the same container. I got a syringe(a big one) started to cyphen out the CuCl2 solution in to a erlenmeyer flask. I put it up to the sun and i see all these little shinny specks. Pretty sure that's gold. I ended up buying a big pyrex bowl, I am going to do everything in the bowl. I transferred the CuCl2 solution(from the erlenmeyer the one with the tiny shiny specks), and the stuff I had in the beaker in to the bowl. i rinsed everything good and put it all in to the bowl. I see what you guys mean now, it's more of an art form. 

I just have one question if anyone can answer. The post said(or the post referenced another post) that you will eventually end up with a lot of etching solution. It also said, "if the solution is dark add some H2O2, if you see a lot of bubbles had some HCl" So I am a bit confused. 

Wouldn't the volume of the etching solution be the same? If you re use it(you would actually lose some in transfers). I am just confused about the etching solution. Do I only reuse "some of it" and add some HCl and H2O2? Or do I use all of the etching solution?

When the solution is dark should I add some H2O2?(concerned about adding to much).

ETA: byte-tech thanks, looking for it now.


----------



## Shark (Dec 5, 2014)

When I first ran in to this, I took two shot glasses and filled them half full of my copper (II) chloride. To one glass I added a few milliliters of peroxide and the other received a few milliliters of HCl. The best I recall it almost always needed the HCl. With a similar test you can determine which you need fairly quick. Even a test tube will be enough, just see which turns it that beautiful green again. Now I use an air pump, and leave it running, even when not working on removing foils. It keeps things ready to go whenever I am ready to use it, and some of it is over a year old. Once you have the Copper (II) chloride made, it shouldn't need more peroxide, a small air pump will keep it just fine (depending on how large of lots your working with, you may need a larger pump). It may need filtering occasionally as well to remove any metals that may fall out of solution. I am sure some of the more advanced members can explain it better as my chemistry is nothing to brag about.


----------



## butcher (Dec 5, 2014)

pu_239,

What your asking about is using the Copper II chloride (CuCl2) etch, to dissolve Copper, then regenerating the solution that basically becomes a saturated solution of Copper I Chloride (CuCl) as it dissolves copper, and regenerating it, or converting the solution back to a solution of Copper II chloride to be able to dissolve more copper.

Laser Steve has a very good document on his web site, that explains it very well, anyone using the CuCl2 solution as an etch should read the document to get a better understanding of the process.

There has also been an awful lot of information written on the forum about this topic if you wish a source of further information on this subject.

I am glad you had success, I could not see you do the work, but from your description it sounds like a few things you should do a bit differently, as noted too much oxidizer (H2O2) will dissolve gold, and even though a small amount of heat (warm) can be beneficial, too much heat can create problems.

Heat can help to speed the reaction, but can also drive off needed components from solution, if overdone, and can cause other problems. 

Hotter or faster for some things is not always better, or a good thing, we can cook the batch of cookies at very hot temperature, and cook the cookies a heck of a lot faster, with a hotter stove, but the cookies may not come out of the oven as good.

I could spend the time (again) to explain the chemistry but have done it so many times, there is no real reason to do so again, as the posts are here on the forum to read if any one wish's to learn, many people have explained the chemistry here on the forum, (or in the document on Laser Steve's web site) if any one wishes to learn it, all they have to do is spend the time to read it.


----------



## joekbit (Dec 6, 2014)

jason_recliner said:


> I may not know the correct "chemisty" description, but the purpose of the stannous chloride is to precipitate gold out of solution as a colloid, which will be violet. It won't work on elemental gold metal or gold powder, no matter how fine, only on gold in solution that does not still have an overpowering oxidiser (excess nitric) that's keeping it dissolved, or redissolving it.



Correct, stannous will precipitate gold (colloid) and it will have a violet color. I have done this experimenting. I use my stannous to check my solutions by placing a drop of the solution on a Q tip followed by a drop of stannous. Anything white works. You can put a drop on a white plate and add stannous. My recommendation is to create a proofing (gold) solution. One that you know has gold in it. You can use it to make sure your stannous is still good. 

I have a 22k solution of Au2Cl6. I keep it in a 50ml jar, capped. I use it verify that my stannous is still active. Stannous will degrade. So far mine seems to last about 1 to 2 weeks. As it degrades the reaction time also seems to slow down.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 6, 2014)

Wow...
This forum is the best at teaching those that wish to learn...
Now it is reverting back to kindergarten by spoon feeding the ignorant.

So sorry for stomping a bit but if the genius would put away his chemistry set and begin reading and actually learning how to... This thread would have died out a while back.

Read and learn the whole process from start to finish on Acid Peroxide,(AP). While learning all about it, you will find many posts on "experimenters" trying this and then asking the same things you have been.

Do yourself a major plus; study and concentrate on your finals and get them out of the way. 
Then study the forum and all the information and knowledge it has to offer like you are studying for a final. 

Then and only then should you be "experimenting"!

I, not knowing much or being special, see you are wasting fluids, creating a lot of waste to properly dispose of, losing gold, and wasting time not only yours but the forum as well.

There are many ways to skin a cat so to speak. Everyone so far has held your hand but you still refuse to learn. 
WAKE UP PLEASE. 
There is a reason for AP and a reason for dissolving gold directly.

There is a reason for using O2 instead of more peroxide.

There is a reason for everything already covered in the forum here. You simply need to stop "experimenting" and learn it. When you see why things are done a certain way, then do it the right way and then proceed to experiment your way and hopefully you can find a better way.

All that being shoved at you...

I AP everything in a 1gal bucket with an air bubbler Overnight. I don't have mountains of plated gold to go through but if I did, I would scale my known process up like others have detailed here.

There is a process from start to finish with RAM sticks. It's detailed within the words of the forum. Don't change it because you are Special. Master the known processes first and then work on making them better. 

ADHD is difficult to manage but I find that separating and giving each squirrel, running aimlessly around my head, something to do works wonders. I studied for tests listening to music and watching TV while snacking on different things. Got A's when I wanted to.

Hope you step back and visualize your future.
Good Luck

B.S.


----------



## bswartzwelder (Dec 6, 2014)

PU 239, If you study the forum and use the search function, you will find the CuCl (AP) that you made can be reused over and over again. You just have to add a little bit of something (which is free) to keep rejuvenating it. Study the forum, use the search function, and you will quickly find out what that is.


----------



## eaglewings35 (Dec 6, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Welcome pu_239,
> 
> if you want to make a profit with small lots, you need to get e-scrap for free or almost for free. If you don't consider the time spent and the lab ware, you will often go +/- zero, if you pay what the large refineries pay and have the PMs for the net price.
> 
> ...



Beggin your pardon sir, but HCl will dissolve copper all by it self. I have done it many times.
I add only my air hose.... I no longer add anything else.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 6, 2014)

butcher said:


> pu_239,
> I am glad you had success, I could not see you do the work, but from your description it sounds like a few things you should do a bit differently, as noted too much oxidizer (H2O2) will dissolve gold, and even though a small amount of heat (warm) can be beneficial, too much heat can create problems.
> Heat can help to speed the reaction, but can also drive off needed components from solution, if overdone, and can cause other problems.
> Hotter or faster for some things is not always better, or a good thing, we can cook the batch of cookies at very hot temperature, and cook the cookies a heck of a lot faster, with a hotter stove, but the cookies may not come out of the oven as good.



You know… It’s weird, I saw lasersteves videos, he used a lot more H2O2 than what people are recommending on this topic. I am doing my last batch right now, I didn’t add that much H2O2, just a little bit as people recommended on this topic. Yes I know that heat(too much) can ruin a reaction. My second batch, had some difficulties. I used the HCL+bleach method to dissolve the gold. I hated it, still do. I have a P100 respiratory with face shield. I could smell the Chlorine gas through it. I don’t understand, I saw Steve’s video, when he used it, the gold dissolved very quickly. For me it’s taking hours, up to 6-12 if not longer. 

I filtered out whatever dissolved, and I had the filter paper with gold and some impurities. I crashed out the gold in the AuCl4- solution. The filter paper and impurities, I just simply added some NaNO3 + HCl, and heated it up. I never made “poor mans aqua regia” my plan was just to make my own HNO3. I have the NaNO3, and sulfuric acid, was going to distill them together to make NO3. Still haven’t put the pump together for the condenser. 
The Solution I made to dissolve the filter paper and gold it worked for the most part. I just need to know the ratios. I filtered off that stuff and crashed out that AuCl4- as well. 

I had this “waste beaker” that had gold stuff in it, and a filter paper with the gold that didn’t filter(dissolve). So I put all that stuff in some HCl and Chlorox, hoping it does dissolve it all. I have it in a erlenemeyer flask topped off with a funnel to limit evaporation and gas production. If that doesn’t work I will just evaporate off whatever Cl2 gas can be produced. Check the pH and run the solution through aqua regia. 

I am running the AP in 50 degree’s C right now. That what was recommended by Steve(well a link he posted). 
People talked about “dissolved gold” I saw the reaction and see how it can be dissolved. So I know I have some gold in my CuCl2 solution. I crashed out the copper with some aluminum foil. I plan to filter out the copper. Now I have a solution with Al ions. I plan to crash that out with some NaOH. Filter it, then I should have a solution of mostly AuCl4-. Then I can crash that out with some SMB. 

I let the gold settle and I tried to decant it, I saw little spots of gold in the solution still, not settled. I see some floating on top as well. They are very tiny. I decanted the solution in to a smaller beaker and I have it on the hot plate which is pretty low. I read from steve that heating it will help the gold settle. I see little black spots on the bottom just from the solution that the gold was in. 

I did purchase Steve’s videos last night, I bought 2 of them. The one for the Ap method, and Palladium and Rhodium from catalytic converters. 
People say “Use the search function” I do, and you know what pops up? 500 replies to 1 topic. Yet the topic title isn’t even what I am looking for. 

I guess my 2 real questions are, "What are the ratios for poorman's aqua regia?(I did try searching).


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 6, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> Wow...
> This forum is the best at teaching those that wish to learn...
> Now it is reverting back to kindergarten by spoon feeding the ignorant.
> 
> ...



I read all your post, I agree with most of what you said. I just got impatient I guess. Here is one of my major concerns. I have a feeling, the air blubbers is probably the method that would produce the best yield. One of the videos I seen, the guy said "wait about 6-7 days." That's just simply too long. Just curious about your time, You said something about 24hrs?


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 6, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> I read all your post, I agree with most of what you said. I just got impatient I guess. Here is one of my major concerns. I have a feeling, the air blubbers is probably the method that would produce the best yield. One of the videos I seen, the guy said "wait about 6-7 days." That's just simply too long. Just curious about your time, You said something about 24hrs?




If you don't have the patience to wait when working in this field you will not get far.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 6, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > I read all your post, I agree with most of what you said. I just got impatient I guess. Here is one of my major concerns. I have a feeling, the air blubbers is probably the method that would produce the best yield. One of the videos I seen, the guy said "wait about 6-7 days." That's just simply too long. Just curious about your time, You said something about 24hrs?
> ...



I am pretty patient, just this gold stuff got me curious, plus I had finals coming up. SO yeah i was rushing things. I was excited, curious. You know, like christmas eve when you where a kid. But as I said, it's cool now. I will slow down, and it's better to slow down.


----------



## Shark (Dec 6, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > I read all your post, I agree with most of what you said. I just got impatient I guess. Here is one of my major concerns. I have a feeling, the air blubbers is probably the method that would produce the best yield. One of the videos I seen, the guy said "wait about 6-7 days." That's just simply too long. Just curious about your time, You said something about 24hrs?
> ...



Words of wisdom, right there.

The right wording in a search is helpful, but often hard to come up with in my case. (A lack of education in the chemistry field, something I have to work hard at to overcome now) Notice the author of the most knowledgeable posts in the link. There are many very knowledgeable people on this forum and it pays well to follow their advice, in more ways than one,  I read a lot from the forum and re-read things quite often, therefore I found the link in conjunction with other research I am doing already. Hope it helps.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=16744&hilit=make+poormans


----------



## butcher (Dec 6, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > pu_239,
> ...



pu_239,
From reading your post above it sounds like you have a lot to learn about chemistry.
I see many mistakes in your thinking of how things work that will cause you to loose most of your gold, I suggest spending time in study, to learn how things really work, before dissolving much gold.

Copper metal will cement gold from solution, aluminum will replace all metals below it (see the reactivity series of metals), NaOH will form oxides and hydroxides of metals and precipitate them out of solution, although at a slightly different range of pH depending on the metal, but note the pH is hard to control, and most of the metals overlap at which pH the range they will come out of solution.

"People talked about “dissolved gold” I saw the reaction and see how it can be dissolved. So I know I have some gold in my CuCl2 solution. I crashed out the copper with some aluminum foil. I plan to filter out the copper. Now I have a solution with Al ions. I plan to crash that out with some NaOH. Filter it, then I should have a solution of mostly AuCl4-. Then I can crash that out with some SMB."

The above quote sounds like a good way and make a mess. it will not work as you think it does.

Maybe you are using too much bleach, (bleach will make saltwater out of your acid), the hypochlorite is a basic solution mixed with HCl acid produces salt water, this may be the reason your having trouble dissolving your gold, it may also be the cause of the heavy clouds of chlorine gas you had been smelling inside your respirator, without knowing what, or how you are doing these reactions it is hard to give advice, but it sounds like the best advice we can give is just spend the time to study.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 6, 2014)

Everything said to this point is useless since you "smelled Chlorine". This tells me you are no chemist with no knowledge of setting up a "safe" environment to work in.

STOP please... Set everything aside and learn the right way. Please. You hurt not only yourself, but anyone or anything around you. Permanent damage can result.

Chemical back grounded people would think before acting. Gee, an acid and a basic does what? HCL+ Bleach...

B.S.
... There is no helping the all knowing...


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 6, 2014)

butcher said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > butcher said:
> ...



This chemistry, is just off the top of my head of what i remember, I haven't written out the reactions or made any flow charts or anything. SO I agree, some reactions maybe off as I think. I don't understand what you're saying about the pH range of the metals. You can use ammonia or acetic acid to help control the pH. (I also just received my pH meter). I have previously separated many metals in solution. As I previously mentioned one of our biggest lab projects was to get metals out of solution, we had a list of "what might be in it" and we separated them and identified what was in the solution or not. This was the list, Ag+, Hg2^2+, Pb2+, Hg^2+, Bi^3+, Cu^2+,Ni^2+, Mn^2+, Fe^3+, Al^3+, Ba^3+, Sr^3+, Sr^3+, Ca^3+, all in 1 solution, Took 3 weeks.

As I said, I do agree some reactions may be off, didn't think them through or write them out(as of yet). But the separation of what i said above with the copper and aluminum, as you know it will work for the most part, There might be other metals I didn't consider. But the general procedure is correct It's all about solubility and redox.

Assuming a solution of just CuCl2(aq). Crash out the copper with Al(s).
3Cu2+ + 2Al(s) -------> 3Cu(s) + 2Al3+
Filter and wash the Cu(s).

Now you just have a solution of Al3+ + Cl- 
crash out the Al3+You can add some Na(s) easy to get with electrolysis or just buy it.

3Na(s) + Al3+ -------> Al(s) + 3Na3+

Filter out aluminum, now we just have a solution of NaCl(aq). You recovered Aluminum which has value, and copper(which has more value). Final solution and you also have easy waste disposal, down the sink.


----------



## Palladium (Dec 6, 2014)

To live in the world of academia!


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 6, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> Everything said to this point is useless since you "smelled Chlorine". This tells me you are no chemist with no knowledge of setting up a "safe" environment to work in.
> 
> STOP please... Set everything aside and learn the right way. Please. You hurt not only yourself, but anyone or anything around you. Permanent damage can result.
> 
> ...



I guess you should tell LaserzSteve to stop too, in his CuCl2 solution he said he smelled a bit of chlorine. OCl- is not a base, it's a reducing agent. Safe environment? I should add more chlorine according to some of the top members on here, and "OPEN MY WINDOWS" come on... I am doing this out side with a mask on. 

I was going to use aqua regia, but, where did I hear about the HCl-Cl method? (here) 

I was going to do these reaction my way. I did the A.P. method a bit modified, doing the way I thought was best. It worked out okay, no problems. I do see it's an art forum on "TECHNIQUE" But in terms of chemistry, no. 

2nd batch, i followed the AP method more carefully as specified. That's when I smelled the chlorine gas. My first reaction, I did it with HCl-Cl my way, the reaction took a long time, but it was okay. Then I see members on here using more chlorine, and we know the result. 

I heard of the "poor mans aqua regia" on here, and that didn't work out to well either, it was okay, but, not good enough. When I first heard about all this gold recovery/refining. My thought was it would be best to use the A.R. method. Assuming the A.R. method is cutting the fingers off and just dumping them in to aqua regia and going from there. Then i started to hear about the A.P. method, just don't like it. I am pretty sure it was developed for people with out a chemical background and a cheap way to do it. I honestly never done any form of chemistry like the A.P. method, honestly it doesn't make much sense to me.
I told my professors(present and past) about what i was going to do. They all said pretty much the same thing, "oh you're going to use aqua regia" They just told me about the NO gas(which i am aware of). We talked about waste disposal, safety, things of that sort, checked on the city permissible limits of Some of the gases produced, etc. 

I go around watching videos, reading topics here and there, i see "you add about half a cup of that, 2 cups of that, and a few drop of this." Just no... that's wasteful, no precision. I am just going to finish this batch and do it my way. The way that makes sense to me, calculate my % yield of what i recovered. I am sure I lost some, so i'll add 5% so the chemcial reactions take place. So I know roughly how much gold is in a certain mass of memory cards and do the math for "ALL THE REACTIONS" from there. So it's not wasteful, so it's legit, so it's clean. Measure things out correctly, have the proper concentrations, etc. 

The only good thing i learned is the possibility of dissolving Au in to the CuCl2 solution. I honestly have no problem with that, I can just extract it. No big deal. The people have also helped me, to identify things, of where I might be losing some gold. But with the chemical processes, no. They're just making it worse for me honestly in that sense. 

I did use Less H2O2, on this batch I have running. It has been running since 2pm. I barely see any progress, When I did it my way, it was done in about 3-4hrs. just so you know.

ETA: I remember one time in lab, my teacher put an anode and a cathode in a solution.He was teaching something about electrochemical(there was something funky about Cl2). He said, "You smell that? It smells like pool? It's chlorine gas). Toxicity is based on exposure limits, and strength. The more you're exposed to a gas, the more likely it will give you problems. Or a high concentration will also give you problems. That's what MSDS is for. 

MSDS: Inhalation.
Overexposure to concentrations moderately above the TLV of 1 ppm irritates
the eyes and respiratory tract. Very brief exposure to a concentration of 1000 ppm may
be fatal. Acts as an asphyxiant at high concentrations. Inhalation of high concentrations
(e.g., greater than 15 ppm) causes choking, coughing, burning of the throat, and severe
irritation of the upper respiratory tract; additionally, pulmonary edema, bronchitis, and
pneumonitis may result. Lack of oxygen can kill.


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 6, 2014)

eaglewings35 said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome pu_239,
> ...


The HCl is not dissolving the copper, it is the CuCl2 that dissolves the copper. The HCl and oxygen from the air is transforming the CuCl into CuCl2 again.

You kick start the reaction with a bit of H2O2 to create copper oxide that can be dissolved by the HCl to create CuCl2. Or you just use some of the CuCl2 from your last batch. You can even start the reaction by just letting copper and HCl stand. There is always some copper oxide and oxygen will dissolve through the surface and refresh the leach.
Then the reactions in the bath is these two as long as you supply the air.
1. CuCl2 + Cu -> 2 CuCl (dissolving copper)
2. 4 CuCl + 4 HCl + O2 -> 4 CuCl2 + 2 H2O (regenerate the leach)
Cut off the air and the leach of copper stops when the oxygen runs out.

If you add H2O2 instead of an air bubbler the orp (Oxidation-Reduction potential) can easily go so high that the HCl starts to dissolve gold. This will start to cement back onto copper and redissolve as long as the orp is too high. When the orp drops the cemented gold will stay as a metal but extremely fine, easily missed in the dark copper chloride mixture.
Adding air with a bubbler keeps the orp on a modest level as there is only a finite amount of O2 that can be dissolved in the solution.

Göran


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 6, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> eaglewings35 said:
> 
> 
> > solar_plasma said:
> ...



Been a while since I did electrochem, but this is what I have.

2H+ -------> H2 = 0.00V reduced(cathode)
Cu(s)--------> Cu2+ 0.22V oxidized(anode)

Cu(s) + 2H+ ----------> H2(g) + Cu(s)
DeltaG = 0.22, The reaction is spontaneous. This is a very small number, so obviously it doesn't happen quickly, but it does occur.


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 7, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> I guess you should tell LaserzSteve to stop too, in his CuCl2 solution he said he smelled a bit of chlorine. OCl- is not a base, it's a reducing agent. Safe environment? I should add more chlorine according to some of the top members on here, and "OPEN MY WINDOWS" come on... I am doing this out side with a mask on.


Those videos does lack some details and were made when he developed the method in the beginning. I tried that method too and added way too much peroxide and dissolved a lot of gold in my leach but then no one realized that it could dissolve gold.

The bleach people are using to dissolve gold is a 3-8% NaCLO solution with added NaOH to stabilize the solution. NaCLO is breaking down in acidic environment and releases chlorine gas. The chlorine gas raises the orp enough so the HCl can take it into solution. The end products of the breakdown can be seen as a base (NaOH) or just as HCl is consumed to release the chlorine gas. I'm guessing on the mechanism here but the end result is the same.
The gas has to be dissolved in the solution to dissolve gold, Cl2 is a stronger oxidizer than O2.
When you add bleach and you see the bubbling it means that you add reagents that is just lost to the air. Small additions over time to a moderate warm solution is the fastest way to do it. Too cold and it will work slow, too hot and the chlorine gas escapes too fast.

Göran


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 7, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> Cu(s) + 2H+ ----------> H2(g) + Cu(s)



Wow, this man is able to create electrons from nothing.


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 7, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > eaglewings35 said:
> ...



I always wanted to learn more about electrochemistry but haven't had the opportunity. But it seems something is wrong with your numbers. The standard electrode potential that I find is 0.34V for that reaction.
This is one reference among many I checked. http://www.efunda.com/materials/corrosion/electrochem_list.cfm?sort=com
And it sits on the same side as gold and platinum so I think you have drawn a false conclusion.

We also have...


The metallurgy of copper said:


> In the electromotive series copper lies below hydrogen and hence
> is not dissolved in dilute acids with the evolution of hydrogen.
> ...
> Although copper does not displace hydrogen from acids, it readily
> ...


No reaction with HCl is mentioned on webelements either, http://webelements.com/copper/chemistry.html
Even when I found the article "Dissolution of copper scrap in hydrochloric acid" it turned out to be the copper chloride process. 8) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cjce.5450490412/abstract


> Results and discussion From earlier work on dilute solutions it was
> evident that the rate of dissolution of copper in hydrochloric acid
> was a function of acidity, copper ion concentration and oxygen
> availability, with the most significant individual processes being
> ...


As I said before, your skills and experience as a chemist doesn't impress, and that must hurt as it's coming from a physicist! :mrgreen: 

Göran


----------



## yar (Dec 7, 2014)

pu_239 many members here are trying to give you guidence in what you are endeavoring to do. I gave you a linq regarding AP which should have led you to other linqs on that topic. This topic has been covered more than most and any questions you have will be answered if you just read. You are making this more difficult than it has to be. 

I have no academic scuence backround beaides what I have learned through high school. Anything I have learned regarding recovery and refining has come from reading Hoke and reading here on this forum. I work in a profession where things are right or wrong, black or white, is or is not. I can not deviate from the facts that are presented to me or lives may be lost. I approach my study's here the same way and have results to prove that. If you devitae from what has been proven here time and again you will have more problems than results. I have been here almost 2 years and I don't think I have asked as many questions as you have in your short time here.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 7, 2014)

Please stop this post from continuing...

'He knows it all and is going to do it his way because it's right and by the book...According to him so please stop trying to change his mind with wrong answers and let this post die out...

B.S.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 7, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> Please stop this post from continuing...
> 
> 'He knows it all and is going to do it his way because it's right and by the book...According to him so please stop trying to change his mind with wrong answers and let this post die out...
> 
> B.S.



Just what I thought. Rrrright! In the beginning I believed, this guy just needs some help to find the right direction. Then it got somewhat entertaining. Now his ignorant behavior gets boring, it spams the forum with misleading assumptions stated as facts and correcting seems to be waste of time. This' my last comment regarding the I-do-it MY-way-man.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > Cu(s) + 2H+ ----------> H2(g) + Cu(s)
> ...



It's called reduction potential. It's redox, electron transfers..


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 7, 2014)

The equations in your attachment are balanced. Yours is not.

Dave


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > g_axelsson said:
> ...



Okay yes, I double checked, I used the number for AgCl(s) -------> Ag+ + Cl- which is 0.22V. It's right below Cu2+ -----> Cu(s) (0.34V). The table I am using uses small print, and there is no separating between the different redox potentials. Frankly it's tough to read, the table you showed is more readable. 

Using redox potentials it's "cathode - anode", reduction happens at the cathode, oxidation happens at the electrode. Easy way to remember this oxidation starts with a vowel, so does electrode. A reaction we know is spontaneous(happens automatically) is 3Cu2+ + 2Al(s) --------> 2Al3+ +3Cu(s)

Doing the half reactions
Cu2+ --------> Cu(s) = 0.34V (reduction/cathode)
Al(2) ---------- Al3+ = -1.66(oxidized/electrode)

Formula is Cathode - anode = E

0.34 - (-1.66) = 2V

In my previous example it was just a simple mistake should be 0.00V - 0.34 = -34V

We KNOW the first example Al + Cu2+ happens automatically. So spontaneous reactions have a positive value. In the Cu(s) + H+ reaction, the answer is negative. So what this means the reaction DOESN'T occur under standard conditions. So yeah i made a simple arithmetic error. 

A key thing people are forgetting is temperature. Temperature does effect the solubility. "Standard" reduction potentials are at 25 degree's C at 1atm. They are under STANDARD conditions.

Here is the triangle we used before, it links everything. 






It's from the chemwiki site(it's from davis), I am an author for the site as well. 

If you look at the triangle, you have to use DeltaG to determine if the reaction happens automatically at a specific temperature. So it's VERY POSSIBLE that Cu(s) can dissolve in HCl based on the temperature. Solving for the temperature that it occurs at is beyond the scope of this discussion. I'll figure it out later(after finals).

SO reviewing some old material, If Delta G < 0 it happens automatically(it's called spontaneous reaction), if Ecell(what we did above using redox potentials) is a positive value it is also spontaneous, i just got confused between the two. For a more indepth lesson on the basics of electrochemistry 

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Analytical_Chemistry/Electrochemistry/Basics_of_Electrochemistry

There are 2 types of cells, a galvanic cell(a battery) and a electrolytic cell(what we're intersted in). If someone chooses to get involved in electrochemistry, don't get the cells mixed up. in galvanic cell reduction happens at the cathode, in a electrolytic cell reduction happens at the anode.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

FrugalRefiner said:


> The equations in your attachment are balanced. Yours is not.
> 
> Dave



For calculating Ecell(Voltage) they don't need to be balanced. It's an intensive property. This means it doesn't matter on the amount of substance(how many moles you have(the coefficients to balance it)). A good example is density(it's a intensive property). Does the density change if I have 1 gallon, 5 galons, 1 quart, or 2liters? No, doesn't matter, the density is the same regardless of the amount you have. The only place the equation isn't balanced is in the Ecell calculation i did. Everywhere else it's balanced.

One of the reasons i didn't balance it was because it might confuse people. If you start to add coefficinces to the redox potentials. 

Cu(s) -------? Cu2+ 0.34V
Al3+ -------> Al(s) = -1.66V

Balanced it would be

3Cu(s) + 2Al3+ ----------> 3Cu2+ + 2Al(s)

People will want to do this

3 x (Cu(s) -------> Cu2+ 0.34V)
2 x (Al3+ -------> Al(s) -1.66V)

multiply the volts by the coefficients which is incorrect.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > I guess you should tell LaserzSteve to stop too, in his CuCl2 solution he said he smelled a bit of chlorine. OCl- is not a base, it's a reducing agent. Safe environment? I should add more chlorine according to some of the top members on here, and "OPEN MY WINDOWS" come on... I am doing this out side with a mask on.
> ...



Okay, I came across a video that said cold helps speed up the reaction, but you're saying the opposite. It's something I have to look in to personally. Do the calculations and see what is really going on. Tips/advice like yours are beneficial to me.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

yar said:


> pu_239 many members here are trying to give you guidence in what you are endeavoring to do. I gave you a linq regarding AP which should have led you to other linqs on that topic. This topic has been covered more than most and any questions you have will be answered if you just read. You are making this more difficult than it has to be.
> 
> I have no academic scuence backround beaides what I have learned through high school. Anything I have learned regarding recovery and refining has come from reading Hoke and reading here on this forum. I work in a profession where things are right or wrong, black or white, is or is not. I can not deviate from the facts that are presented to me or lives may be lost. I approach my study's here the same way and have results to prove that. If you devitae from what has been proven here time and again you will have more problems than results. I have been here almost 2 years and I don't think I have asked as many questions as you have in your short time here.



I understand what you're saying, as the panther lady said as well. Do what has been proven, once you have got that down you can start to experiment. I agree with that statement if you're venturing off in a field you have no experience in. This is just general chemistry, which i have done many times. As I said before, the "techniques" used are more of an art form. As I think about it, the techniques used are needed due to lack of proper equipment. With proper equipment it's just general chemistry. 

I believe the A.P. method as i said before, is for people who dn't have much experience in chemistry(if at all). I do agree the A.P. method if down as followed, will limit problems. I see it as a safety net. I do have some NaNO3 and I want to make the poor mans aqua regia correctly. If I had my pump set up, i'd just make my own nitric acid which will be fuming nitric acid, which is incredibly strong and intense. It literally has fumes coming out of it. This obviously is not for the inexperienced. It can be very dangerous and it's extremely corrosive. 

From my experience, I am 90% sure I can extract gold from the gold fingers from start to finish(powdered gold) within 2-3hrs total time with a high yield. I will just need the proper equipment. A centrifuge would be a god send, that's why so many people wait "for things to settle" in a centrifuge you don't have to wait a day, it can be done in 5mins if not less. I am planning to make a centrifuge. For me, the A.P. method doesn't make much sense. For beginners/inexperienced people, i think it's good way to learn and it's less risky. 

People talked about dissolving gold in the CuCl2 solution. I crashed out the copper, and tested for AuCl4-, results came back negative. unless the gold is in a different form, there is no gold in my solution. As I said, I will have to look at the reactions more deeply, at this moment I don't have much time to do so, have a test on tuesday, then 2 of them the following week(finals). After all that is done, i'll look at each reaction in depth.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Pantherlikher said:
> 
> 
> > Please stop this post from continuing...
> ...



You're right, I have been making assumptions, as i said countless times i haven't looked at these reactions in depth. I am reading what people are saying and taking it in to consideration. Some things just seem off the wall, but as i said, I am taking things in to consideration and will look at everything in depth when I have more time. But honestly, you have been helpful to some degree. 

The issue is the unwelcoming advice given. I have felt attacked by a few members on this topic. There are multiple ways to say things, "you're lying, you're wrong, you might be mistaken, you might want to consider..." all pretty much say the same general thing, that something is wrong. no one has to be rude about it.

As I said countless times, yes I might be wrong about some things, as you pointed out I am making some assumptions, this is all i have at this moment in time with out looking at the things in depth. When I have time I will look at them in depth, taking in to consideration what people have said things like gold dissolving in CuCl2 and what not. Do my calculations and things of that sort, right out the reactions, determine if they're endothermic/exothermic and concentrations and work from there. I will see how the A.P. method stacks up to the chemistry. 

To insult my chemical background is pretty insulting. This is my majoring subject, all the other students when they need help with their chemistry they come to me. I understand it pretty well. As I said, this subject is general chemistry mostly second semester chemistry. At my school, which is close to Berkeley it's very intense. It's the most intense course I have taken. The reason for this is that Berkeley is where the upper division students go to. So these professors I have, teach and have graduated from Berkeley(most of them), so they pound you pretty hard. It's the most intense course at my school. I know 5 people who have changed their majors because they just don't want to go through general chemistry again, many of them have dropped. 

I took this course last semester, i know i am a little rusty on some things. I have to review some things and work from there, but at this moment in time i can't do that. So yes, I know some things might be slightly incorrect. The Cu3+ and Al(s) thing, how you said I was making a mess is not entirely correct. I did notice some reactions i said where off, so i agree with you "it wouldn't have worked out how i expected" that doesn't mean "i don't know." Doesn't mean "I have A LOT TO LEARN about chemistry" It means, I haven't looked at it in depth, and a little rusty, this problem will be solved after finals. 

If people address things respectfully, there are no problems. If you simply said, "you might want to take a closer look at your reactions, it won't work how you expect." then okay, no problem there. After you said what you said the way you said it, i looked in to it and you where partially correct. But in the end, I showed reactions that extract the metals which have value that can be sold(all of the metals) and now I have more profit and easy disposal(down the sink). So once again, it doesn't mean "i don't know."


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 7, 2014)

So sorry to have to again add to this ....um...thread..

I do not look very sexy in a dress with my beard covering my boobies.
So I would assume you are slightly incorrect by stating that I am a lady.

B.S.
...Billy Scott in case you would like to know...


----------



## Shark (Dec 7, 2014)

Correct me if I am wrong. We have in this thread alone at least one Physicist, a Chemist and another is a collage Chemistry Professor. And a single student can do better than they can! Yep, nothing you can learn here, but we are looking forward to being taught these new super methods. Now, I must get back to my gold, I have real studying to do later.


----------



## butcher (Dec 7, 2014)

pu_239,
Going to school to learn about something like chemistry, and doing it in the real world can be very different. Although basically the same subject, school and real life can be two different worlds, you have learned some about the subject, you have no real life experience to go by with what you studied.

I have seen many people schooled in a subject that when faced with that subject in a working environment new nothing about what or how to do the job, they could read, learn and memorize to pass a test in a school book, but where lost when it came to a problem on the job.

I have also seen people who would do terrible at a school test that were very good at figuring things out on the job.

You have an excellent opportunity to put what you learn in school to good use in what you will learn in the real world, but first you will have to learn how things work in the real world.

in my mind school is basically to teach you how to study, it does not teach you how to work.
Work in a subject can teach you to understand the subject and be skilled at it, school will just give you some details about the subject.

In my experience it is better to work in a field for 30 years and then go to school on the subject, this way you basically already have a very good understanding of the subject, and schooling can help fill in some of the blanks.

if you go to school before you work in a subject you are trying to learn a wide field of many different aspects about that field at once, you are being introduced to everything at once, you only pick up, retain and truly understand only a small of what is taught, even if you do have a good memory and can pass the tests.

But when you work in a field you see many of the problems and experience how things work, basically getting a knowledge in the subject, going to school after working in that field for many years can fill in the blanks of small details that will help you understand what you have already experienced, you already know by experience most of what the class is teaching, and you just have small helpful details to learn, so your not overwhelmed with a lot at once, and can gain a lot of understanding from that class, basically the class can fill in some blanks to give you a better understanding of what you have learned in real life.

Believe it or not I am trying to be helpful with my comments, to get you to begin your study to learn to recover and refine precious metals, and to learn the chemistry involved in this kind of work.

Hoke's book, advice from GSP, Harold, Lou and many others here on the forum, will not necessarily teach you the chemistry involved directly the way you are learning it in school, but by reading Hoke's and what members here provide you have a great opportunity to learn the chemistry your school is trying to teach or introduce you to, with study on the forum and its materials, and with your small experiments in this field you have a great opportunity to learn chemistry, and apply that with what you learned in school.

In some way my advice to you would be like what advice I give to many new members who think they know most everything about this by reading information on the internet and watching a bunch of U tube videos on the subject.

Forget what you think you know, and study to learn it, begin with Hoke's book, The safety section, guide to the forum...

I too feel this thread has gone too far, many here have tried to help you understand you need to study, we do not have time to hold your hand, I do not have time to show you every small details as to why I believe your thinking is wrong in this subject, it would not help anyway if we did, what will help you is if you can realize you have a lot to learn about this subject, and spend your time learning it.

Forget the chemistry for a while, learn from those who may not even be able to put together a chemical formula, or even if they can, see no reason to do so, you will be surprised of how much of the real world chemistry of recovery and refining of precious metals, you can learn from them.

Learn the field of work first, then use what you learned in school to further your education in this field.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 7, 2014)

How about a practical exercise to add to an otherwise boring lesson on text book knowledge vs real world knowledge.?

As a start, I took a gallon plastic bucket put a straw out of the top for vapor passage. Ran an air tube through the lid to the bottom with an air stone.
I put several finger boards inside, filled bucket about 1/3 of HCL and a splash of H2O2?(peroxide), measure that for me.
Let air bubble for a bit, I let go while sleeping.
Next day my findings are all gold easily rinsing free so experiment successful.
Now I run all fingers I have overnight, maybe 12 hours.
{edit for safety}
Secure shed dedicated for use with fan moving in far window and air moving fumes "AWAY" from me. 

Now I have no more fingers but lots of memory to go through.
For me at least it's a pain and seemingly waste of effort to depopulate and trim the little fingers off. From memory only.
So, for processing, I have learned to...

A. Put memory in Aqua Regia and Crash out? Crash out cracks me up still...

B. Add memory right into AP? (see bucket up top)
Then filter everything and dissolve and crash out?

C. Put memory into another container and cover with HCL. Filter and put memory sticks in AP. Then dissolve and crash out?

D. Spend lots of $ getting equipment and text books and getting a college degree on how the book says to do it.

Here is the catch: Unlimited supply of memory but everything else is at cost and you must make a profit.

Input should be interesting at least.

B.S.


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 7, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> How about a practical exercise to add to an otherwise boring lesson on text book knowledge vs real world knowledge.?
> 
> As a start, I took a gallon plastic bucket put a straw out of the top for vapor passage. Ran an air tube through the lid to the bottom with an air stone.
> I put several finger boards inside, filled bucket about 1/3 of HCL and a splash of H2O2?(peroxide), measure that for me.
> ...



Please stop saying "crash out". Not sure where you got that term from. The correct wording is "drop out".


----------



## necromancer (Dec 7, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> So sorry to have to again add to this ....um...thread..
> 
> I do not look very sexy in a dress with my beard covering my boobies.
> So I would assume you are slightly incorrect by stating that I am a lady.
> ...



what i would give for a photo of that


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 7, 2014)

necromancer said:


> Pantherlikher said:
> 
> 
> > So sorry to have to again add to this ....um...thread..
> ...


----------



## necromancer (Dec 7, 2014)

:lol: i think that's a fake dress.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

butcher said:


> pu_239,
> Going to school to learn about something like chemistry, and doing it in the real world can be very different. Although basically the same subject, school and real life can be two different worlds, you have learned some about the subject, you have no real life experience to go by with what you studied.
> 
> I have seen many people schooled in a subject that when faced with that subject in a working environment new nothing about what or how to do the job, they could read, learn and memorize to pass a test in a school book, but where lost when it came to a problem on the job.
> ...



I completely agree with everything you said. I have personally read a lot of self help/success informatoin/books/dvds/cds etc.. One thing that always stands out to me about success is this quote. It's backed by Dr.Paul Dobransky, psychiatrist. He made a unification theory of psychology. He simply states, "success is 2 parts, 1 part education, the other part is experience." If you're not successful at something it's because you're either lacking experience or education. 

My friend is taking organic chemistry at another school, he transferred. He doesn't have lab, no hands on experience. I can promise you if you put him in a lab doing organic chemistry, he would be terrible at it. He has the "education" but not the experience. I do have experience, in actually doing chemistry. As I told you already what one of my projects was in lab. Yes this field of gold refining is new to me. I don't deny that, but from my perspective it's just metal separation. 

I am listening, don't think i am not. I have listened to you and everyone else. I do appreciate the feed back, but in the end I ultimately have to make my own decision. The HCL-Cl method for dissolving gold, I never done that before, and I did have a bit of problems as stated previously. There are ways of doing things which i am not aware of. That's apparent, but there are also other ways I know how to do to achieve the same thing. More approriate feed back than "you're doing it wrong." would be, telling me "why" 

I have been on the internet for a long time, since around 96. I know how things go on forums and online in general. A new comer comes a long, he gets criticized by the older members, that's how the cookie usually crumbles. I completely understand and agree that I can come off irritating/(cocky) sometimes. I don't deny that. 

What I would like to know if anyone can answer is the method to poor mans aqua regia. My hunch is to add 1 part of HCl and 4 parts nitrate. 

Once again, thanks for the replies and feed back everyone, i do understand constructive criticism, so no offense has been taken.

Butcher, you have been helpful.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Pantherlikher said:
> 
> 
> > How about a practical exercise to add to an otherwise boring lesson on text book knowledge vs real world knowledge.?
> ...


Actually it's "crash out" never heard the term "drop out" in chemistry, ever... until i came here.


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 7, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Pantherlikher said:
> ...



See you learn something new everyday.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> How about a practical exercise to add to an otherwise boring lesson on text book knowledge vs real world knowledge.?
> 
> As a start, I took a gallon plastic bucket put a straw out of the top for vapor passage. Ran an air tube through the lid to the bottom with an air stone.
> I put several finger boards inside, filled bucket about 1/3 of HCL and a splash of H2O2?(peroxide), measure that for me.
> ...



I am not sure if you're sharing your experience, but you start out with a "practical exercise" and say "input should be interesting at least" implying you're looking for my input on maximizing profit. Not sure if you're asking a question or making a comment. It appears you're asking question. 

So to answer it, what/how I would do with ram to maximize a profit. I would ideally, crush everything(seen people mention this) in to a fine powder. Then separate all the metals one by one. Get whatever palladium, rubidium, gold, silver(found silver in my ram which was cool), copper, and sell each thing individually. For a least experienced person, I would just do the A.P. method as directed, and sell the boards. 

Make a program that back calculates everything. How much gold did you recover from your first run, how many lbs did you use? How much gold did you get for pound of ram? then from there determine a price that you're willing to pay per pound to make a profit. This is what my program i made does, i also input the current market value of gold and the program adjust accordingly of how much I should pay. 

I am all ears if "crushing everything" doesn't work out well. It was something i saw someone said and it peaked my interest. If it doesn't work well I wouldn't like to know, and why it doesn't? Is it due to lack of knowledge/experience, or something else?


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 7, 2014)

Here is my update, I was decanting my gold flakes, I added some water to wash it, The solution turned white and cloudy. Pretty sure it's silver, correct me if I am wrong. I know that Siliver forms AgCl in dilute acids, but not sure about strong acids. Adding the water diluted it. 

I was oing to separate it all out, but i decided not to, I'll deal with it later. I got some ammonia, this will convert any AgCl(s) to Ag[NH3]2+. Doing a test on it now to verify it's silver, but i'll look at it later. Someone ran to the store and i told them to bring back some ammonia, in the mean time I got the pump going. So I just vaccum filtration everything. This is the results before the Aqua Regia step. 







The filter worked wonderfully. I will probably finish all this up tomorrow. If something is "wrong" with all this, I'd like to know, and i would like to know the "why" behind it.


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 7, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> What I would like to know if anyone can answer is the method to poor mans aqua regia. My hunch is to add 1 part of HCl and 4 parts nitrate.


Um... No. Your "hunch" will leave you with "a bit of a mess".
Here is today's homework. I give you the same link that was figuratively handed to me on a platter. As a chemistry student you should find it a heck of a lot easier to understand than I.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=poormans+aqua+regia+how+much&terms=all&author=butcher&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Really, you ought to stop doing anything until you've studied enough to visualise the process from start to finish. I'm still new (< 1 year) and I still ask questions too. But I won't blindly start *anything* until the process makes sense to me.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 7, 2014)

4 parts HCL and 1 part Nitric acid does Not make poor man's AR.
It makes AR the right way but will waste Nitric acid and make more steps and take more time to rid the solution of excess Nitric.

Reading through the forum will explain in both plain english and advanced chemistry. You need only look and learn.

My described AP process and question was directed to the Forum. You included which you have given your reply as expected. You went outside the guide lines and assumed you had everything and anything to use to get the most return. I should have stated the only cash to begin is what you got for the fingers. Limiting the thought process.

You over thunk it...

Crushing the whole stick would be another way of extraction. But was excluded in the exercise as you did not have unlimited cash to begin with. Looks perfect on paper but dive in head first would be disastrous fast. You would literally need unlimited memory as well as unlimited cash on hand to make it work as well as the real world knowledge.

Everything said in this group of posts and replies is to help as needed and not to put you down personally or attack you. Cockiness is evident and needs to be humbled so you allow yourself to open your eyes and see the real problem here. You are strictly by the book which 4-1 HCL+ Nitric will prove very wasteful and lead to poor results. The processes here may seem academically bad or slightly wrong, but this is from real world people whom have learned to do all of this in a way that works the best. 

People from all walks of life and language come here to learn which is why it is very important to be accurate and not "slightly off" or wrong when describing processes as you have repeatedly done in your posts thus far.
Do a search here on Crash Out and see how many times it's used. Only by you and I thus far I'm guessing.

I really hope you do great on finals and then begin to read through the forum and find things interesting enough for you to learn enough to be able to be a great asset to us all. 

Good luck
B.S.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

jason_recliner said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > What I would like to know if anyone can answer is the method to poor mans aqua regia. My hunch is to add 1 part of HCl and 4 parts nitrate.
> ...



Okay, thanks for the link. I do agree I should have thought things out more thoroughly, I just jumped right in.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> 4 parts HCL and 1 part Nitric acid does Not make poor man's AR.
> It makes AR the right way but will waste Nitric acid and make more steps and take more time to rid the solution of excess Nitric.
> 
> Reading through the forum will explain in both plain english and advanced chemistry. You need only look and learn.
> ...



So you recommend the HCL-Cl method compared to the Aqua regia method? When i said "nitrate" i didn't mean nitric acid. I have sodium nitrate. NaNO3. The ratios of Aqua regia are 5H+'s (4 from HCl 1 from HNO3) so I should have said, "5 parts hcl and 1 part NO3-" this gives 5 H's and 1 NO3-, same ratio of aqua regia. I will look in to the ratios again for HCl-Cl method, I'll give it another shot. Actually, I don't think this run will be done with HCl-Cl method. I just can't, I still have that filter paper in my current HCl-Cl mixture that's sitting in the back. I don't think it has(or will) dissolve the filter paper. I know aqua regia will dissolve it. I'll see how that flask is doing, it might be dissolved.


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 8, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> I am not sure if you're sharing your experience, but you start out with a "practical exercise" and say "input should be interesting at least" implying you're looking for my input on maximizing profit. Not sure if you're asking a question or making a comment. It appears you're asking question.
> 
> So to answer it, what/how I would do with ram to maximize a profit. I would ideally, crush everything(seen people mention this) in to a fine powder. Then separate all the metals one by one. Get whatever palladium, rubidium, gold, silver(found silver in my ram which was cool), copper, and sell each thing individually. For a least experienced person, I would just do the A.P. method as directed, and sell the boards.
> 
> ...



Sorry folks I can't resist this.

1. You can't tell by the tone of the comment that he is screwing with you because you lack the experience to tell the difference. You are ass-u-me-ing something in the way you read the post. This is what a degree gets you now days.

2. Crushing RAM. All that get's you is a pile of trash. The material needs to be pulverized to be effective in any solution.

3. (seen people mention this) Please do some more searching on the forum for the correct terminology. Here is a good place to do your searches from http://www.goldrecovery.us.

4. rubidium. Now that is a new discovery that I haven't herd of I'll have to see how much of that I can recover and see if I can find a market for it.

5. can you do a ladder diagram to outline how you will separate each of the different metals?

6. How did you determine that you found silver in your RAM? This should be interesting to hear.

7. For a least experienced person, I would just do the A.P. method as directed I feel strongly that this is above your education level to understand this process.

8. and sell the boards Do you have a buyer lined out? If not send me a PM and I'll give you a price on the blank stick's.

9. Make a program that back calculates everything. How much gold did you recover from your first run, how many lbs did you use? How much gold did you get for pound of ram? then from there determine a price that you're willing to pay per pound to make a profit. This is what my program i made does, i also input the current market value of gold and the program adjust accordingly of how much I should pay. 

I think you should post a copy of this program so everyone will have access to it so we won't loose money.

10. I am all ears if "crushing everything" doesn't work out well. It was something i saw someone said and it peaked my interest. If it doesn't work well I wouldn't like to know, and why it doesn't? Is it due to lack of knowledge/experience, or something else?

I feel that is the problem you are currently having now that is causing the issues you are having with following direction's.

This is what a college education get's you now day's. Lack of respect for people that are older and more experiensed than you are. The lack of patience to learn anything because they feel since they have gotten a higher degree of education they know it all (oh wait that is what I put up with from my 17 year old son that is taking college courses while in high school).

That twinkle in your eye is your life expetency on this forum unless you learn some humility and listen to what the members are trying to tell you.


Sorry Mod's I tried to keep quiet. My rant is over.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 8, 2014)

My bad.
As a novice in this field I did not see Sodium Nitrate when you wrote it. I saw Nitrate/Nitric... We use Sodium Nitrate do describe Poor man's AR to avoid the confusion.


----------



## necromancer (Dec 8, 2014)

i searched the net & found this:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crash out&defid=2726261

i just want to say i have a very limited formal education (grade 7) & i found it much more simple a process then you are finding it.

sometimes you need to forget about how school teaches you "how to think" & just listen to simple instruction.

as an apprentice in the construction business (many years ago) i was told to keep my eyes open, my ears open & my mouth shut.
not to mean that we should not ask questions but to mean to listen to those that have done it for years & not interrupt while your learning something new.

everyone here is helping you & its like you are arguing about it.........
by the way, i mix my AR 3 parts hcl + 1 part HNO3


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 8, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> My bad.
> As a novice in this field I did not see Sodium Nitrate when you wrote it. I saw Nitrate/Nitric... We use Sodium Nitrate do describe Poor man's AR to avoid the confusion.


But he also said 1 part HCl to 4 parts nitrate. It might have been simply a typo but could also have been a catastrophic mess. The devil is in the details.


----------



## bswartzwelder (Dec 8, 2014)

Anybody who doesn't understand why we use the AP method hasn't done enough reading. I've spent too much of my time reading this post already. If he knows what he's doing, what's he doing here? We should be learning from him.

Einstein said it best. The only difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits (or something like that).


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure if you're sharing your experience, but you start out with a "practical exercise" and say "input should be interesting at least" implying you're looking for my input on maximizing profit. Not sure if you're asking a question or making a comment. It appears you're asking question.
> ...



2. Pulverize, crush same thing. There are "Degrees" of crushing, highly crushed is pulverized. 

4. Spell check...

5. Sure, it's below the horizontal line. Above the line is my organic chemistry homework i am doing. It's above general chemistry(which gold refining is) so i am sure it's above your education, but the seperation looks something like this. I think you mean "flow chart" not ladder diagram(terminology)






6. Look at number 5

7. I highly disagree...

8. Yes I have a buyer, boardsort.com 5 dollars per lbs last time i checked. If you can beat that, then sure i'll sell them to you.

9. I have to be 100% sure it's bug free if I decided to release it. 





Above the "BIDDING!" I entered the price of gold, listing price, mass It tells me how much i will spend, how much i will make (based on feed back of other members of how much gold is in 1lbs of ram) etc... It tells me my % profit near the end. YOu can get 50lbs or 1lbs, paying a vastly different prices. How do you know if it's a good deal or not? By the %. You can get a 150% profit if someone is selling 1lbs at a good price, you can get -150% profit if someone is selling a lot of ram and IT LOOKS like a good price, but in reality it's not.

The bidding section tells me the max i should pay for that lot(if i was bidding). It also calculations shipping and handling for shipping the boards to boardsort.com

Respect is a 2 way street, who's on who's case right now? Thank you

P.S. all B.S. aside, since we're both members of the forums, If you can "meet" the price of boardsort.com, I'll sell them to you.

ETA, i am looking at the % profit of the program, it's funky. 1 is really 100%, but that doesn't make sense, I think i made some quick last minute changes which i didn't check it out fully, but everything else should be working fine.


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 8, 2014)

> 4. Spell check...
> 
> 5. Sure, it's below the horizontal line. Above the line is my organic chemistry homework i am doing. It's above general chemistry(which gold refining is) so i am sure it's above your education, but the seperation looks something like this.



How to win friends and influence people.

People are good at different things. There are people in this forum whose spelling is pretty ordinary, but are damned good refiners. I'd rather listen to someone who can really refine but _ain't so good at word-spellin'_, than one who merely knows there/they're/their and how to correctly place a semicolon. While you think about that, mister incorrect capitalisation of first person pronouns, yes your chemistry is well above my year 8 education. But there are real (i.e., not at school) chemists and physicists here, to whom I expect that sort of remark is probably really insulting.

While some others here are bailing out, I've been happy to assist you as I can with my limited experience. I've been a bit spoon-fed here so feel obligated to pass that to the next generation of would-be refiners, like yourself. You could be the smartest man in the world and one day a great refiner. But you're doing your dash and I suggest a pulling in of your head might be in order.

PS: Separation. Pot / kettle.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 8, 2014)

> Once again, thanks for the replies and feed back everyone, i do understand constructive criticism, so no offense has been taken.
> 
> Butcher, you have been helpful.






> Okay, thanks for the link. I do agree I should have thought things out more thoroughly, I just jumped right in.



Okay, maybe I've been too impatient with you. Maybe you aren't lost anyway.

Since you said, you know the special culture of forums in general, be aware of, that this forum is not like any other forum. Every fool is able to nuke some gold in 4:1AR. Dissolving gold and precipitate it with the least effort, gaining the highest purity with fewest steps, leaving you with less or no waste, having the least losses and introducing the least danger - this is the art of this craft. This is, how to impress us. I appreciate you are able to perform a complete qualitative and quantitative cation assay. All my pupils could. It is not much worth for refining. If I had something to give for a toll refining, I would rather give it to any one-year-autodidact forum member without a high school degree, but who has listened and showed respect to the senior members. You wouldn't even be my choice at all. Your degree does not impress me at all, you could have a Ph.D. or Sc.D., it wouldn't make a difference. I do not ask my doc to repair my car.

Did you read this:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=19074
In fact, I wonder you weren't banned, yet. 

Your chemical assumptions and the way you think reminds me pretty much of the way I looked at the subject of refining before I came here. Understand that cobber II chloride leach isn't just copper II chloride, but it will behave differently depending on concentration, ORP and pH. As another example, silver chloride, almost insoluble in plain water, but pretty soluble in high chloride concentration. By the way, do you know the dangers involved, when complexing silver chloride with ammonia? I hope you do and I hope you know how to treat this solution safely. Even some chemists on the board avoid introducing ammonia to their waste stream, because it is an accident waiting to happen. The msds is a minimum safety approach, it will not protect you. It is a must, but it is a must, too, to read and know a process in all details. Introducing any other step or chemical makes it possible suddenly to have a big surprise. You don't want to have this big surprise outside a real laboratory that is laid out to those dangers. First read and learn from others. Then, when you know the process in all details and have researched and thought over it for weeks, you might modify the setting with great respect and cautiously expecting the unexpected, preventing any greater harm. 1ml HNO3 might burn your desk, 1l can kill you easily in several ways, even though you use your sweet minimum protection gear.

One of the first things I got to learn here is that nothing is as it seems. Expect variables affecting the processes, that you even can't imagine, yet.

I hope you get the right turn, because I really believe a biological chemist could be an enrichment to the board, ...at least when he first put his childish chemistry set aside and started to search and read the posts of real professionals before doing anything else. This is not a game, but until now you are just playing.

Doing so, listening, searching, reading, you will laugh and shake your head about your first posts.

edit: Spell check yourself, before saying so to others, - your posts are full of mistakes, pu_239!


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

necromancer said:


> i searched the net & found this:
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crash out&defid=2726261
> 
> i just want to say i have a very limited formal education (grade 7) & i found it much more simple a process then you are finding it.
> ...



The term i always heard by my professors is "crash out." That's part of the problem, "what instructions am I given?" I pretty much documents what I have been doing on this post. The only thing i heard was wrong was heating the solution to high the CuCl2. I was told it would "Dissolve" the gold. Which didn't make much sense to me, but the physicist mentioned what is going on. Which makes sense to some degree, but... it's a bit extreme. I mean even water dissolves gold to some level. It's very very tiny bit. For example, AgCl(s) appears to be insoluble. But it's not, AgCl has a disassociation constant of 1.8x10^-10. This means for every gram of AgCl(s) it will produce 0.00000000010 grams of Ag+ and Cl-. Pretty much everything breaks up in water to some degree. So i am not sure if he was over stating what he said, it might be completely insignificant. 

People have been saying the CuCl2 solution dissolves gold if too much H2O2 is added. Which hasn't been stated clearly. What do they mean it "dissolves" the gold? Do they mean the gold foils break up in to smaller pieces. Or does it Go to AgCl4- ? If it does go to AgCl4-, I tested it with SnCl2... the test came back negative. The only way this will be true, and the statement "gold dissolves" is if the gold foils are just broken up in to extremely tiny pieces that they can pass through the filter... If that's the case, then I'll just get tighter filter paper. No big deal. So At this moment, I don't know what's really going on with that statement, I will look more at the issue in depth later. 

Maybe now people can understand my point of view. I see people say things that simply don't make sense to me. I could be wrong about some of the things, I don't deny that. I have to personally look in to the issue myself. 

As I mentioned my major is biochemistry/chemistry, I also mentioned above I have lost over 192lbs, health and fitness has been a big part of my life. For over 20+ yrs I read/heard things that i absolutely believed to be correct. Now since i am in the field of science, I go look at the scientific literature and find out that 90% of the things said where complete non-sense. They "sound good" they "make sense" but in reality, they're just non-sense. The same thing can be going on here. No offense to anyone, but it's a possibility. At this moment, I m going based on what i know to be correct about chemistry. That can be why people think "i am not listening" Until I have the time to verify the claims that I have seen here, I will keep on doing what I am doing. I am getting the results I want just fine at the moment. 

I am a little bit rusty in my general chem 2(which this subject is), and I also have ADD which causes me to make mistakes in calculations and things of that sort. I have always been really good at the science of chemistry, but to sit down and do the calculations, I can do them, I am decent with it, but my down fall with it all is the ADD. And no, it's not the math, I am in calculus 3 at the moment, so math isn't an issue for me. It's just "misreading" or "miswriting/speaking"(which has been apparent here).


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 8, 2014)

No, chloride and H2O2 dissolve gold, just as any other halide if there is an oxidating environment. Göran was not overstating. We actually you those processes to dissolve gold under some circumstances.

SnCl2 will most often give a false negative or a quickly disappearing reaction or a later reaction, when the oxidizer is gone.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> > Once again, thanks for the replies and feed back everyone, i do understand constructive criticism, so no offense has been taken.
> >
> > Butcher, you have been helpful.
> 
> ...



I asked my professor the other day, "What makes a good organic chemist?" He simply stated, "Doing things quickly, minimal steps, and high yield." Pretty much what you said. That's what I am striving for with the gold. This is one of the reasons why i have been complaining, "it takes to long." Safety is a big part of all this of course. I invited my friend to join me over the winter break with this gold refining. Now that I have done it, no... not going to invite her. I have experienced some of the dangers/risks involved. I can get help/feed back here, but ultimately, it's just me by myself. If something goes wrong, I need to know how to handle it. There is no one here to correct my mistakes. If a reaction doesn't go as expected, no one to really help me clean it up, it's all on me and what i know. 

As I said i added some water to the CuCl2 solution to wash, then the solution turned white. Confused me a bit, but then I thought it must be silver chloride, but i was kind of confused because It's insoluble for the most part.I thought maybe the dilution of the acid cause AgCl to form. Which makes some sense, this was just verified by you as well. You stated, "As another example, silver chloride, almost insoluble in plain water, but pretty soluble in high chloride concentration." It appears this is what happened. 

I am well aware that obstacles can/will arise. I just need to know how to handle them. I tried to dry my gold powder in the beaker, i evaporated the water off, and it like got stuck to the beaker. It was difficult to get it off. What i ended up doing(well it's sitting outside) is i am trying to redissolve it all in the HCl-Cl solution. This is one of the issues that arose. I had the gold right there, but I just didn't know how to extract it. I don't/didn't trust the filter paper. 

What i am giong to do is once i crash it out again, neutralize it of course then put the solution with the gold in a ziplock bag. I saw someone do this, they put the gold in a bag with water. They tilted the bag and put it in a cup. This allows the gold to settle in the corner of the bag. Then he put the bag in the freezer and froze the solution. He then just chopped off the corner that contained the gold. 

i know I should have been more respectful to the senior members, but as i stated, I felt i was being attacked slightly by a few. The guy who went on a mini rampage, with the entire "auto correct thing" i just threw back what he threw at me. You know, an eye for an eye ordeal. But that doesn't help matters much, just perpetuates the cycle. 

BTW: I am curious about the Silver complex with ammonia. wait no it wasn't silver, silver was crashed out with HCl... do you mean the Ni2+? Either way, can you elaborate, because it appears i am not aware of the risks, unless you're talking about the pH balance which is a bit tricky and can cause problems in solution. I have used NH3 many times to form complexes... so i don't think/(am not aware) of the risks..


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> No, chloride and H2O2 dissolve gold, just as any other halide if there is an oxidating environment. Göran was not overstating. We actually you those processes to dissolve gold under some circumstances.
> 
> SnCl2 will most often give a false negative or a quickly disappearing reaction or a later reaction, when the oxidizer is gone.


Okay, I am curious what you mean by "dissolving" does it form a complex AuCl4-, or do you mean it just breaks up in to smaller gold particles? When i get things together(once school is over) i plan to separate all the metals from the CuCl2 solution, including the gold.

ETA: i guess it would be oxidized, i mean that's what H2O2 does.. Has anyone used MnO4 for oxidizing gold? (i know if it's done it can get messy, just wondering)


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 8, 2014)

> As I said i added some water to the CuCl2 solution to wash, then the solution turned white. Confused me a bit, but then I thought it must be silver chloride, but i was kind of confused because It's insoluble for the most part.I thought maybe the dilution of the acid cause AgCl to form. Which makes some sense, this was just verified by you as well. You stated, "As another example, silver chloride, almost insoluble in plain water, but pretty soluble in high chloride concentration." It appears this is what happened.



After using CuCl2 on copper, you get CuCl and god knows what combinations of copper chloride related complexes. When you dilute it, CuCl will precipitate as a white or gray powder, which can be used to make new CuCl2 by dissolving in concentrated HCl and with aeration used for dissolving more copper. That is what you got, CuCl. Silver chloride would darken in the light. Lead chloride would dissolve in hot water.

As I said, do not assume too much, nothing is like it seems to be.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 8, 2014)

> Okay, I am curious what you mean by "dissolving" does it form a complex AuCl4-, or do you mean it just breaks up in to smaller gold particles?



What kind of gold complex is forming depends on what else is in solution. Gold will be oxidated by halides in an oxidating environment. Since there is a lot of garbage in this soup, it might get reduced again and then form fine or even colloidal particles. You don't want this.



> When i get things together(once school is over) i plan to separate all the metals from the CuCl2 solution, including the gold.



Waste of time. Read butcher's posts about CuCl2 instead.



> ETA: i guess it would be oxidized, i mean that's what H2O2 does.. Has anyone used MnO4 for oxidizing gold? (i know if it's done it can get messy, just wondering)



Please use your search button EACH time you want to ask a question. Several manganese compounds can help dissolving gold, as far as I remember, they will provide the oxidating environment or just evolve chlorine gas, that in solution is able to dissolve gold. http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=895&p=10627#p10627

Now, it has been said before: EVERYTHING we do, we do, because it has been developed and proven by generations of people, who aren't ignorant and naive students. Start believing there IS always a reason why this way and not the other.  You will learn why, but not today.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 8, 2014)

By the way, IF you got silver in your CuCl2 leach, you did do something wrong: you dissolved tin from some ROHS solder that contains 1-5% silver and/or you leached mlccs, which can contain 5-10% silver. You don't want to have that garbage in your CuCl2 leach. If you wonder why, then start reading or make a mess on your own and you will know. *pedagog mode off*


----------



## kurtak (Dec 8, 2014)

kurtak said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > I read hokes book, didn't find much that's too appealing,
> ...



:shock: this guy is still here - Harold must be busy with things outside of the forum

I posted my above quote 4 pages ago (its at the top of page 3) but then I saw the thread had grown another 4 pages - so I thought - hmmm maybe he changed his attitude & has started listening - so I skimmed the last 4 pages - based on the replies by other members (& a couple of the long winded post of his I skimmed) I see no reason to change my position as underline in my above post

He is not interested in listening - he is full of himself & his education & is more interested in being heard :roll: 

Kurt


----------



## kurtak (Dec 8, 2014)

Hey Bill (Pantherlikher) 

I thought you said you didn't look to sexy in a dress :lol: 

I thought it (the pic) was the best part of this thread :twisted: 

Kurt


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 8, 2014)

kurtak Come on now. You don't think this boy genius and his wonderous slighly off teachings are not delightful and furthering our edgamucation?

Just try to make cents of hiz last groupin off posts n cee.

Imagin... A very well educated person can not figure out what the white stuff is in his CuCl2 leach when water is added? Really? And he claims to be smarter then all of us? Huh... Or how about the explosive energy potential of Ammonia and silver? How about that A.D.D. type grammer that even I aint been figurein out. I look more in depth on that laters...

Oo..Ooo.. I really like the program and how it does not include...Umm.. huh... o yeh. Things like time cost and market fluctuations and uUu o cost of that super nice, knows what he's doin, kinda lab set up and chemicals he's very carefully measuin out so as to be exactin in the over use of said supplies to make costs go up...

Big wonder what he's usin Urea for and what it should be used 4.

Sorry for the proper use of the English language. But next to genius boy, I feel like the dumbassed person alive(see pic illustration above)

So... back to my proposed exercise on making the best of what you have. Read up a bunch of posts and see if there are better choices for memory processing.

How's your solution that has been sitting in the back? Back of where is of interest. Still smell of Chlorine? Where's the PH? Where is your gold? Dissolved or so small in particulate form it's not seen by the naked eye? I can't wait to hear how much of a pain it is filtering gold solution from AR with filter material gooing it up.

B.S.
...Entertained yet?...


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> > Okay, I am curious what you mean by "dissolving" does it form a complex AuCl4-, or do you mean it just breaks up in to smaller gold particles?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the link i been trying to find, i seen it before. There was a link i think by lasersteve that had all of the reactions, I have been trying to find it if anyone can help me out on finding it. 

I also saw the link by butch on poor mans aqua regia, that's exactly what i said I'd do, but he went more in to the numbers. I know the standard method has been tested and proven. I get that. As I said, I know people have been doing this for decades, I am sure the methods used have been proven through out time. I don't deny that. 

To everyone else, most of my questions are mostly out of curiosity when i ask about some of the reactions. 

A link i have also been trying to find is a a link by lasersteve, it was a little chart, I think it had "6M HCl and 0.22M H2O2 at 50 degree's C" and a few other temperature based reactions. I haven't been able to find it, i searched every where.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> kurtak Come on now. You don't think this boy genius and his wonderous slighly off teachings are not delightful and furthering our edgamucation?
> 
> Just try to make cents of hiz last groupin off posts n cee.
> 
> ...



About the program, it does calculate based on the market, You personally input the price of gold per gram, go look up the price and input it in to the program. It is all based off the current market price. No i didn't calculate time, it's irrevelent, As I said with my first batch I enjoyed doing what i did. So it's not really "work." I haven't calculated the price of chemicals, I will do that once i finish this batch. Well I'll do it before I do my next batch. I'll do it all based on the numbers i.e. moles of gold, chemicals, reactions, etc... I will measure out everything, this is how I should have done it initially. This reaction has been carried out countless times in lab. It's a picture from the actual book we used.






About the "best choice with what you have." I completely agree, I said that previously, I believe the A.P. method was developed for limited resources/safety and for people who are just starting out.

My gold is sitting out in back, did what was recommended, just a little bit of bleach, it has been sitting out there since yesterday evening, still not dissolved fully dissolved. I knew i should have used aqua regia. But i gave the HCl-Cl another shot, it's just not for me. Never used it before, I have used aqua regia. 

My first batch had a similar problem. SO what i did was just filter out what i had, the undissolved gold, I washed it, and put the filter paper and the gold in to some HCl(heated) then added some NaNO3. That worked. I filtered it, and this is the results. 






I crashed out the gold in the Aqua regia version, then the gold of the HCl-Cl method. I also got a vacuum filtration going yesterday, so no worries on the clogging. It worked great.

I honestly don't know what the problem is, everything I have done has worked as expected. The only issue I had with the HCl-Cl solution, which I have never done before, and the gold sticking to the beaker when I tried to dry it(this is where the art form comes in)


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 8, 2014)

> it has been sitting out there since yesterday evening, still not dissolved fully dissolved. I knew i should have used aqua regia. But i gave the HCl-Cl another shot, it's just not for me.



CuCl2 for recovering and HCl/chlorox for the first refining is something all smart noobs do succeed with the first time they try, well, after they have read what has been advised. You failed. What is that saying about you?

Now and then you need to add small increments of chlorox with a large pipette into the solution. We are talking about milliliters. Then just keep adding from time to time until all gold is dissolved. It is chlorine, which dissolves gold here and chlorine has a limited solubility, -remember? The product is sodium tetrachloroaurate in this case.

AP...CuCl2 has not been made up for backyard beginners. And its chemistry is obviously too complicated to you. 

I can see at least two more dumb mistakes in your process, but based on your ignorance you are not worth being taught this.

I have seen people getting banned for less ignorance. It has been a mistake to try to spoon feed you and to try to make you understand. Hopeless.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 8, 2014)

At the end of the day pu_239 you are experimenting in the lab which is showing great results in a perfect world. 
But it wont in practical use.

Most if not all of us use what works and is economical to use.

Hence, AP, HCL+ bleach etc. is in out tool box. As well as plastic buckets etc.

This kind of argument could go forever and we both can be right and wrong.

It's all fun and games and great to learn but when it comes down to a final cost tally, the cheapest and fastest way always wins.
This is where the forum can be of great use. To learn all different methods and find a process that best suits the needs.
This is where your questions ruffle our feathers as you are book smart, but far from practical use. Take us with the same grain of salt as your attitude over what you should be doing, Learning.

B.S.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 8, 2014)

A Wikipedia entry keeps coming to mind:


Wikipedia said:


> a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.


Dave


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 8, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> At the end of the day pu_239 you are experimenting in the lab which is showing great results in a perfect world.
> But it wont in practical use.
> 
> Most if not all of us use what works and is economical to use.
> ...



ha, i think i know what the problem is now after reading your comment. Before i get to that... Yes it ultimately boils down to minimal effort and maximum profit, and of course safety throughout. That's what i am striving for ultimately, now since it's my first run, i noticed some mistakes I made which I won't make again. It's a learning process for me at the moment. I do understand the A.P. method from an economical stand point, i get that, there is really nothing wrong with the A.P. method, it works. For me, it just takes to long. I know under the proper conditions, meaning.. knowing the reactions in depth, writing out my procedure, working it with the proper tools I can process at least 10lbs in about 2-3hrs with a high yield. No doubt in my mind about that. I see people waiting about a week. 

To everyone else, now to the "problem" of this topic. After reading this person reply it made me think you guys might think I am coming here, trying to say "you're doing it wrong" and "You should do it another way." The A.P method isn't my preferred method. Ideally what I would like to do is just put the entire fingers in some A.R. and work from there. Crash out whatever metals are presents, which i don't know the ones that are present at this moment. But from what I seen, There is copper, of course gold, i think i seen people mention Nickle. But i am not 100% certain,also seen Tin mentioned. It's something I have to look in to later.

I mentioned my preferred way of doing this, I know there are people who have been doing this a long time who do the A.R. method. Do you get on their case too? It's just a preference. 

To kill this entire topic/thread, the real question is, "What do you guys want from me, what do you want me to do?" I'll leave it at that.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 8, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> To kill this entire topic/thread, the real question is, "What do you guys want from me, what do you want me to do?" I'll leave it at that.


Stop posting misinformation.
Stop arguing with members who are trying to help you.
When someone offers you advice, say thank you, even if you don't like what they've said.
Go finish your finals. Do the best you can.
Then, come back here and study the materials people have recommended. Don't just scan things. Study them.
Stop saying crash things out. That may be the term you are used to using in your chemistry classes, but this is a refining forum. We precipitate our metals, or in refining jargon we drop them.
Accept that you may know more about chemistry than most members here, but most members here know more about refining than you do.
Read Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum. Follow all of the links as far as they lead you, especially the Guided Tour.

Do all of that, then come back here and make your next post.

Dave


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 8, 2014)

Welcome to the forum.

Please refrain from cockiness hence forward.
Look to the posts as part of learning this and instead of arguing about something, look at both sides and give your thoughts.
There is always more then 1 way to do things so look, learn and determine what's best.

Hope you can be humbled enough to be a great asset to the forum.

B.S.
Billy Scott


----------



## jason_recliner (Dec 8, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> ha, i think i know what the problem is now after reading your comment. Before i get to that... Yes it ultimately boils down to minimal effort and maximum profit, and of course safety throughout. That's what i am striving for ultimately, now since it's my first run, i noticed some mistakes I made which I won't make again. It's a learning process for me at the moment.


I actually empathise with you a little here. I've had ideas to "forget about doing it quick and cheap, I want to do it _scientificamally properly_." In that essence I declined, hopefully more respectfully, to do what I was being told would be the quickest, easiest way out of my mistake. But I felt that it would be giving up, losing, failing. But not really; losing is actually when you lose excessive time, chemicals, materials, value or health. (FWIW, I've since used that advised method, twice.)



pu_239 said:


> Ideally what I would like to do is just put the entire fingers in some A.R. and work from there. Crash out whatever metals are presents, which i don't know the ones that are present at this moment. But from what I seen, There is copper, of course gold, i think i seen people mention Nickle. But i am not 100% certain,also seen Tin mentioned. It's something I have to look in to later.


Do look into that, for it is a bad idea. Tin in solution is _not_ your friend. Search my posts from mid year. Read ye therein, Butcher and others' sage advice regarding tin.


----------



## Shark (Dec 8, 2014)

Personally, I see these fine people offering me a chance to learn something now that I didn't have a chance to learn when I was younger. There are those here I may not care for as much as I may others, but they have the ability to teach me something I have wanted to learn for nearly 20 years. This is such a great mix of people, from all walks of life, that help those who want to listen and do some study for themselves. From a very minimal education to some very highly educated people, all here for the benefit of such a diverse group of students. Some slight respect for them would go a long ways in my opinion. You seem, and rightly so, very proud of your teachers in school, and many here are just as proud of their teachers on this forum. I do not have the education of many here, but they are willing to share their education with me, and I will respect that. Irregardless where that education came from, a high end collage or the school of hard knocks, they deserve some respect. I have been very fortunate in life to have met and become friends with many people, from those who could barely read and write to several collage professors, and two that were Deans. A few from large, well respected schools, everyone well respected and successful in their field of choice. I would have never went at any one of them they way you went at the people here, it is disrespectful at the least, disruptive at best. And all just from "skimming" a few notes, that is just another form of disrespect, again just in my opinion.

I hope you find what your looking for and wish you all the success you want. I just hope it is not at the expense of alienating yourself from very many people that can help you along the way.


----------



## bswartzwelder (Dec 8, 2014)

PU

You join the forum for knowledge and do nothing but disagree with the members. Members who have forgotten much more about recovery and refining than you'll ever know. They spend much of their valuable time trying to help you. Then, you go ahead and do things your way anyhow. Why come here for advice if you're not willing to use is. Then to top it off, you disrespect them by resorting to name calling like Pantherlady and Butch.

Virtually every question you have asked has been asked before and answered before. You are too lazy to use the search function and suffer from the attitude that others on the forum owe you an answer to your questions. Not true. Actually I'm quite surprised they have put up with your attitude for as long as they have. 

You're not willing to use the terminology of the forum. Instead you have to crash out something. If that's how your instructor(s) are teaching, then I have lost a lot of respect for them as well. Their terminology is not scientific. The members of the forum understand that and realize that a slight error in terminology can bring disastrous, even fatal results.

Our members come from a wide range of backgrounds. Their lifetime experiences have taught them things that no school, college, or university ever could. They have collectively recovered and refined countless thousands of pounds of gold, silver, platinum and almost any other metal found in the periodic chart. Their knowledge is worth far more than the value of those metals. It is something to learn and to pass on to future generations. 

I'm actually surprised you're still around. If your attitude doesn't change soon, one or several things will happen. You can be banned. People will quit responding to your posts in which case you'll actually have to exert a little energy and use the search function. Harold V, one of the most respected people on this forum has said it many times: "I do not suffer fools gladly". Please change your attitude before you encounter his wrath.


----------



## Harold_V (Dec 8, 2014)

bswartzwelder said:


> Harold V, one of the most respected people on this forum has said it many times: "I do not suffer fools gladly". Please change your attitude before you encounter his wrath.


He has been forewarned. He is to discontinue posting, and get on with reading. He is told to get a better attitude, and that respect must be earned. 
I will not tolerate any more of his rudeness, nor his constant braying about his prowess as a chemist. Those, alone, will be grounds for being banned. All I need, now, is a slight push and it's a done deal. No one is free to disrupt the harmony of this board. 

If any reader has an opinion about if he should be banned, feel free to post your thoughts. The board is not about me---it's about US---and our intention is to do that which suits the majority. If you feel you've had enough of this dude, I'll ban him.

Harold


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 8, 2014)

He is young, full of dumb ideas and he has been formed by his environment. We all have been. Hard to tell, if he is one of those, who are calming down after some years in real life or if his arrogant, disrespectful and ignorant attitude gets even worse once he has finished his Sc.D. or once he has got a respectable job. I do not believe he will change his mind. I would like to say, get him banned, but who am I to throw the first stone? I think it's fine to have made him discontinuing posting. My opinion is, let him read and we'll see, which way he will choose.


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 9, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > pu_239 said:
> ...



http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/pulverise

Verb	1.	pulverise - destroy completely; "the wrecking ball demolished the building"; "demolish your enemies"; "pulverize the rebellion before it gets out of hand"
Synonyms: demolish, pulverize
2.	pulverise - become powder or dust; "When it was blown up, the building powderized"
Synonyms: powderise, powderize, pulverize
3.	pulverise - make into a powder by breaking up or cause to become dust; "pulverize the grains"
Synonyms: pulverize, powder, powderise, powderize

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/crush

Pronunciation: krŭsh
v. t.	1.	To press or bruise between two hard bodies; to squeeze, so as to destroy the natural shape or integrity of the parts, or to force together into a mass; as, to crush grapes.
[imp. & p. p. Crushed (krŭsht); p. pr. & vb. n. Crushing.

There is more on crush but I didn't feel it was necessary to copy it here.

Sorry but us poor old Arkansas country hick's have never been known for spelling very good. My wife has been trying for over 20 years to get me to learn but I refuse. Harold has tried as well and even he gave up on me a long time ago.  

Ah "flow chart" I couldn't think of the name last night with my limited education. 
Stick this in your limited education dictionary so that way you will have it for a reference the next time you try to cut someone down. There is 28.1 Toz of once refined gold button's off of one project. When you get your 1st gram recovered come back and talk to me.




And with my limited education I was only able to get 3 masters license in the following fields that I held for close to 20 years. Plumbing, Electrical & HVAC (that's Heating and Air Conditioning for the educated people). They didn't give one for pools and spas or equipment operator's (backhoe, trackhoe, dozer, bobcat, forklift, trencher, manlift oh heck too many to mention forget it) so I guess I can't claim those. While in these fields I regularly dealt with HCL, Sulphuric and many other chemicals on a regular basis. Oh wait did I tell you I worked at a chemical factory for about 5 years as well dealing with tankers of HCL, HBR (that's hydrobromic acid so you don't have to go look it up), concentrated peroxide, zinc powder, plating sludges. Ah forget it there was too much to list. I also directed the local Plumbing apprenticeship program for the state for 2 years. When and if you get the chance to oversee or manage a project for over $1M hollar at me and I might change my hick attitude towards you and give you some pointers.

Next time you decide to snub someone and talk down to them make sure it is not going to come back and bite you in the butt.

That flow chart looks like something my cat left in his litter box.

Chris is a nice guy I try not to take business from him but actually I pay the same on fingerless RAM as he does and more for CPU's but you would know this if you did some homework.

150% profit. I'm sorry I believe in giving someone a fair value for their product and not stealing it from them. I feel you really need to work on your program more and put some more information in it to cover yourself. Oh but wait, with 150% profit you have plenty of room to work with.

I wouldn't be on your case if you gave the other forum members the respect they deserve. I'm not into writing long winded post's anymore unless someone isn't listening to more experience people.

P.S. to the B.S. I'm already working on about 80 lbs. of RAM.

Ok I'm done with this thread. 

Sorry about that Harold. I say let him be for a few day's and see if he changes his attitude but at the slightest hint of futher disrespect I say get rid of him. That's what I would do IMHO.

As Forrest Gump would say. That's all I have to say about that.


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 9, 2014)

Maybe a temporary ban until mid January would be the solution. It would let everyone cool down for a month and pu_239 time for reflection, something I think he is lacking, with ADD and all.

I know about some of our senior members that has been banned once or twice but came back and in the end became respected members of the forum. I won't name names but you know who you are... :twisted: 

pu_239, if you are aware of your problems with ADD then you should try to change your behavior, not just blaming it for your actions. Use the "Preview" button and read your responses again, doing all calculations over again as you know you makes mistakes. A lot of other people should also use the Preview button so you are not alone. I use it always and I'm catching a lot of mistakes in my posts.

On a forum you are what you write.

Göran


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 9, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> Maybe a temporary ban until mid January would be the solution. It would let everyone cool down for a month and pu_239 time for reflection, something I think he is lacking, with ADD and all.
> 
> I know about some of our senior members that has been banned once or twice but came back and in the end became respected members of the forum. I won't name names but you know who you are... :twisted:
> 
> ...



Hey hey hey. It was only once. And I've tried to be nice and quiet.


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 9, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Hey hey hey. It was only once. And I've tried to be nice and quiet.



We have all been banned once and that day I was desperately trying to remember what I had written that would get me banned. :mrgreen: 
That was a day of reflection!

... maybe you're saying that you've been banned twice?

Göran


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 9, 2014)

> 5. Sure, it's below the horizontal line. Above the line is my organic chemistry homework, I am doing. It's above general chemistry(which gold refining is), so I am sure it's above your education,


 [edited errors]

One advice to Pu_239:
Your education is nothing but a ticket to the real world. Every man or woman, who successfully has run a family for a couple of years or longer, working hard to provide their children an acceptable living, is far more educated, than you are. They may not have that first class ticket, that life has gifted to you, earned or not, but they are already on the train or maybe even at their goal.

Never believe, education is the same as to be educated. The easier your life has been and will be for you, the harder it is, to get educated.


----------



## necromancer (Dec 9, 2014)

i don't think banning this guy is a good idea. i think having him know that grade 7 drop-out (me) can recover & refine gold & he can't is punishment enough for now.

25.8 grams. recovered in the back woods of a park with items i found at a thrift store & a propane BBQ i found in the trash, and most of all
*(Solid Teachings From All The Fine People Here At The Gold Refining Forum)*

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=26167&mode=view

i don't know how to put that link in-line to show photo ? Oh Well, at least i know a little chemistry 8)


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 9, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey hey hey. It was only once. And I've tried to be nice and quiet.
> ...



I don't remember that might have been when i was gone for a while. :lol:


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 9, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > Barren Realms 007 said:
> ...


That was scaring on the day of the BAN but quite funny afterwards. There was a spammer on the board, just an ordinary spammer and Butcher was going to ban him and put an IP-block on his address. But he messed up and wrote it a bit wrong, ending up banning everyone including Noxx and himself. As he was banned he couldn't fix it and we all had to wait until Noxx had time to fix it. :lol: 

I think it was one or two years ago, oh, here it is
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=16993

I think it's time to make a donation to the forum again.

Göran


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 9, 2014)

Okay I have read and acknowledged all the posts. Frankly, issues got out of hand, because i felt criticized. It's not more complicated than that. Maybe I took it the wrong way.Respect is a 2 way street. Frankly, I tried to patch things up, but it seems the kicks keep coming from some members. Most of us are guys here. Guys have issues with one another and they make up. I don't hold grudges, for me, most things are water under the bridge. 

I already made financial deals with some of the members for my gold recovery, which i am estimating about 2-3g from my first run. I guess what i am trying to say is that some members are helping me and i am helping them as well. I am contributing in my own way. I would like to contribute more when i can, in any way i can. I also want to clarify, my education... I am not "implying" some of the members are uneducated or anything of that sort. I never said anything along those lines. I don't give 2 craps about "education" what i care about is "results." I am reminded of a story a computer science professor told me(yes i am doing a double major). He was talking about how he hired someone who graduated from Berkeley, but couldn't code worth anything. I completely understand/agree that education means nothing, so no i am not "rubbing it" in anyone face or anything. I don't care if you can spell or not, I suck at spelling and grammar. I noticed people who are in the science field usually are bad at spelling and grammar. I simply stated I was majoring in chemistry kind of like an introduction, nothing more.

So hopefully all this is just water under the bridge, no hard feelings.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 9, 2014)

Welcome to the forum, Plutonium!


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 9, 2014)

Don't feel easily offended. This is a very proud, sometimes rough like some 49ers and serious community and sometimes it may sound harsh, when we think someone needs to get it this way. Sometimes it may sound harsh since many of us don't use English as their first or even second language. 

Read some other noob posts and you will get a feeling for what is acceptable and what not.

We expect people to do their best to first try to answer questions on their own. Searching for some hours through the forum is quite normal for us. Sometimes you just can't find the right term for getting any results. Then there are many who will gladly help out.

Don't expect anyone will spoon feed you in order to learn the basics, that are quite easy to find on your own. If something doesn't make sense to you, expect it to be your fault. Read more, read again. Once you think you have read all about a process, you are welcome to ask to get an idea of where your thoughts went wrong. Never say, that a proven and respected process is bad, something for dumb hillbillies or that you know better, before you have mastered this process and all others, so you have a basis to compare with. You will understand, that each respected process is the best tool of all in a defined setting.

You can say, you have mastered a process to some degree, when you have processed the gold the respected way, have melted it and have proof for its pureness. Before you haven't done so, be careful with what you are saying. Every idiot can drop or precipitate gold, but it won't be pure or he will have lost a lot of it. 

Once you read the forum for real, be aware of, that some methods have changed over time. For example, it is not recommended to use urea for anything else but as a fertilizer or maybe some hand creme. We use sulfamic acid instead. Many methods are not recommended or even very limited, because of the dangers. Be careful with what you advise. Chemicals that are daily tools for you, might be the death himself in the hands of the unknowing. On the other side, some chemicals you know to use safely in your context, are extremely dangerous in the context of refining. I know what I talk about, I have learned to look with much more respect at some chemicals I use daily since 20 years at work.

I hope those advices can help you to get a good start.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 12, 2014)

Thanks for the welcoming goldandsilver and solar.
goldandsilver i was browsing the forums and saw your post to your book, i looked at the sample. It looks very good, I do plan to buy it eventually, has many good things in it. Solar, I do understand constructive criticism, so in the future I won't take things personally. 

I was writing another long winded post(deleted it). I'll try to keep it short. Frankly, I lost 40 dollars after everything is said and done. Comparing my figures to figures online i didn't do bad with my yield. My main objective was to make a profit. I am not looking a way to get rich, but more of a part time job, i liked doing what i did, it was fun. I know it was dumb of me to jump right in. I know people who are selling are looking to make a profit. That leaves me(the buyer) least likely to make a profit. I searched many avenues of refining, various types of jewelry, computer parts, catalytic converters etc... the prices aren't there for me to make a profit. I am just looking for a little money, not much, something as a little part time job. I am very hesitant to retry gold refining. I spent 120 and got back about 80-90 dollars. 

I know many people go around looking at yard sales, placing ads, things of that sort. With school, i frankly don't have the time. Ideally I would like to make a purchase of something in bulk and refine it. If i was to buy ram it would be at 7 dollars a pound, and i don't see anyone selling at that price, I looked high and low. I have 2 options, call it quits, or find a way how to make this work. 

I am asking how can i make this work? How can i make a little profit doing this? If i do get feed back on how to pull this off. I plan to read hokes book fully before i get started. As mentioned, I also ordered lazersteve's dvd's. So i'll do my research on the recovery process well before i gets started.


----------



## solar_plasma (Dec 12, 2014)

It seems to be easier in the States and almost impossible to start a business in Europe. Some thoughts about that subject I had: It seems possible to buy at 90%. If 5% goes to materials, energy and so on, there are 5% left. Regarding working time, it is the same work doing a pound high grade scrap as doing 20 pounds. So the solution would probably be, only to process the biggest loads you can handle. Then 5% for the work would be a nice margin.

What you need are some good connections. Customers who sell their high grade scrap to you, because they trust in you getting the correct, maybe best price. And customers who trust in the quality of your product and still get it 2% cheaper than any other place.

The keywords seem to be high grade scrap, high grade products, trust and large quantities.

How this can be achieved...maybe first become a skilled refiner, so you have some products, you can show your customers. Then go out and talk to them. 

Until then you could start with just buying and selling without processing. Good books about the theory of starting and running a successful business are: Leading change by John P. Kotter and How to solve the mismanagement crisis by Ichak Adizes. You should be able to find those on every university library, that provides organizational psychology.

Just some ideas I have had, based on everything I have read here,on the net and in my studies.


----------



## butcher (Dec 12, 2014)

pu_239,
Where I find profit is mostly from the education, which to me is invaluable.

You are a fast learner, you are seeing what many of us know, making a profit from recovery and refining precious metals is a hard thing to do.


----------



## necromancer (Dec 12, 2014)

butcher said:


> pu_239,
> Where I find profit is mostly from the education, which to me is invaluable.
> 
> You are a fast learner, you are seeing what many of us know, making a profit from recovery and refining precious metals is a hard thing to do.




you are so correct !!


----------



## Palladium (Dec 12, 2014)

necromancer said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > pu_239,
> ...



I'll second that !


----------



## Shark (Dec 12, 2014)

There a few ways to get a head profit wise, but very few. I have been working with a small computer shop to obtain some of my materials. I pay them .30 cents under boardsort prices for finger cards, which doesn't leave much room to come out ahead, but I get memory sticks for $4.00 per pound. Another advantage has been that I get information on other materials that they can't deal with due to being tied down to running their business. Kind of a trade off, but we both make out decent with it. Due to other things I have been involved with over the years, I have a fairly decent range of contacts who offer me assistance in locating other materials as well, most of which only cost me time and gas, as well as a few who just drop off materials right to my building door. I came home a few weeks ago to find a small truck load of old PII and PIII systems sitting neatly stacked beside the shop door and I still have no idea where they came from. I have a working deal with a small, local store chain that often needs older metal shelving removed they no longer use. Usually in lots to small for commercial people to deal with so I go haul them off for them. I carry them straight to the scrap yard, if I don't need them, and any money from that sale goes direct into buying those $4 a pound memory sticks. Yesterday I made a deal for 5 pounds of mixed CPU's at $7 pound. From the 5 pounds, I got 9 386/486 CPU's the rest were slot type PII/PIII's, with the exception of 7 processors that happened to be the Pentium Pro's. I have located another 3 pounds for the same price. For me, being into a wide range of projects over the years has been fairly good to me. I am by no means a large a large scale refiner, but I enjoy working at it and it fills a niche for me I find very satisfying. I work hard to keep pace with dealing with my wastes and any scraps that aren't PM/PGM related, and turn those scraps back into the things that have potential. There are still a few deals out there, but finding them isn't always easy and you will hit dry spells at times. It is all a part of the game and you just have to take what life gives you. 

Good Luck, and I hope you have great success.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 12, 2014)

@ solar_plasma, I should be grateful that I do have the opportunity to start something. That was my original plan, to deal with high volumes. I know there isn’t much to be made, the only way to do it is with high volumes. I was planning to reinvest half of whatever I made. Even if I only profited 10 dollars, from a 100 dollar investment, now I have 105 dollars to reinvest. Over time, these small reinvestments will add up to buy more volume. Before I even posted here, my first calculations said I would probably make about 5-10 dollars profit. I put it in to excel to add half of what my profit to my next order. In 2years it turned in to a lot of profit, but it was of course high volume as well. 
It sounds like you’re recommending to be a refiner for other people. I do see that as a good way to get started. People give me their scrap, I turn it in to money for them. I get a small % of what I made for them. I really don’t have to invest money, just the chemicals and some time. I will read those books you recommended. 
@butch, thanks this was definitely a learning experience. I always felt, unless you actually do it, you don’t know anything about it. I felt I understood the chemical process involved, which I did for the most part. But there is a lot more to refining then just the chemistry as many have told me. 

side note, wasn’t sure if it you(butch) or solar_plasma who told me to add the bleach in increments to the HCl. I did that, it worked great. It’s also safer, limits Cl2 gas production. 

@Shark today I went out to buy some hot dogs, there is a little computer repair shop next to where I went for the hot dogs. I talked to the people there, I just pretty much asked, “You have any computer parts that don’t work?” The guy told me, “You should have come 2-3 days ago, we just took all our stuff to the recycling place.” He told me they got rid of 20-30 computers. I just went to 1 shop, there are a few in the area. So I do see some opportunity. 

I also have to have a computer repair business, I am sure I can get scrap computer from shops, see what works, put together a few computers and sell those, process the things that don’t work. 
I also believe there is some opportunity in the auction sections of ebay for scrap jeweler. It’s an auction, I saw some that appear to be a decent deal. But I will do more research on jewelry before I jump in. I know there are a few types, plated, rolled/filled etc… 
On my agenda for winter break, read hoke’s book (and of course Steve’s dvd’s). Go around to computer shops asking for stuff they don’t want. I am going to process about 2lbs of ram sticks that I have (without the fingers) the IC chips, and the MCC. See if my profit is better if I keep the ram boards or process them myself. 
The lessons learned here are great, don’t dive in to things without being 100% sure you know what you’re doing. If you decided to invest (try to make a profit) don’t go all in. Do a few test runs first with small quantities (which I am going to do with the jewelry). 

Thanks everyone, even if some posts where to just slap me around, it was still beneficial. Thanks again.


----------



## Shark (Dec 12, 2014)

It is all a matter of how much you want to produce. (Gold wise) I started out with trash, literately, from my job. My first button weighed 6.4 grams and over half of that came from drops of only .1 or .2 grams at a time. Talk about a serious learning curve :lol: It took me a year to get there. Today, I have 3.2 grams ready to melt, another gram that will come out of the AP tomorrow. (Not enough time today) And two more small batch's ready to go into AP, with more waiting. I am not worried about speed, I just love the over all experiences involved doing it. I have a tank that will handle AP in 10 gallon lots, but I can't see what is going on inside it, so I still do little lots in glass, just so I can watch those gold foils falling. Like I said, I am not large scale, but I do have fun at it. I had planned, in the beginning, to just give it a try, with no real thoughts of success or long term plans for refining. Now I am in the process of putting up another small building just for this. I have used what I get to build up slowly, and continue to add as the opportunity allows. I have done this with out ever having used real nitric acid. I have made cold nitric quite often, but it can pose it's own problems to deal with. I have a dedicated sulfuric cell, that works very well. I have a separate area, for storing and working with my wastes. A fume hood of sorts, that does a pretty good job, and will be upgraded with the new building, along with a new system for a scrubber. And this is just a hobby, I still do not even own a real beaker. I have never toll refined, or even worked gold for anyone else. I have only sold one button, for the experience, so far. The best thing of all has been the help I have gotten from people that have advised me along the way, along with a lot of great reading and shared knowledge of the forums. Knowledge and friendship are the real riches to be found here, the rest is just icing on the cake. I think you have had time now to realize just how many wise and knowledgeable people really frequent this forum, and can help you, and others, a long the way. I can say they have done more than their share of guiding me, and they continue doing so. Believe me, I still have a lot of learning to go yet, and I am looking forward to it.

Best of Luck, and success.


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 12, 2014)

Shark said:


> It is all a matter of how much you want to produce. (Gold wise) I started out with trash, literately, from my job. My first button weighed 6.4 grams and over half of that came from drops of only .1 or .2 grams at a time. Talk about a serious learning curve :lol: It took me a year to get there. Today, I have 3.2 grams ready to melt, another gram that will come out of the AP tomorrow. (Not enough time today) And two more small batch's ready to go into AP, with more waiting. I am not worried about speed, I just love the over all experiences involved doing it. I have a tank that will handle AP in 10 gallon lots, but I can't see what is going on inside it, so I still do little lots in glass, just so I can watch those gold foils falling. Like I said, I am not large scale, but I do have fun at it. I had planned, in the beginning, to just give it a try, with no real thoughts of success or long term plans for refining. Now I am in the process of putting up another small building just for this. I have used what I get to build up slowly, and continue to add as the opportunity allows. I have done this with out ever having used real nitric acid. I have made cold nitric quite often, but it can pose it's own problems to deal with. I have a dedicated sulfuric cell, that works very well. I have a separate area, for storing and working with my wastes. A fume hood of sorts, that does a pretty good job, and will be upgraded with the new building, along with a new system for a scrubber. And this is just a hobby, I still do not even own a real beaker. I have never toll refined, or even worked gold for anyone else. I have only sold one button, for the experience, so far. The best thing of all has been the help I have gotten from people that have advised me along the way, along with a lot of great reading and shared knowledge of the forums. Knowledge and friendship are the real riches to be found here, the rest is just icing on the cake. I think you have had time now to realize just how many wise and knowledgeable people really frequent this forum, and can help you, and others, a long the way. I can say they have done more than their share of guiding me, and they continue doing so. Believe me, I still have a lot of learning to go yet, and I am looking forward to it.
> 
> Best of Luck, and success.



That's nice, the thing that cried out to me in what you said was, "continue to add as opportunity allows." I am pretty sure I am going to get a part time job in the stock room at school, preparing chemicals for the classes. So i will get a little bit of money. look for some decent deals, maybe spend like 50 dollars here and there to build up my gold. Just save it for myself as you're doing. I looked at the 30yr stock price for gold. There are high peaks and valleys, but over all, in the long term, the trend is gold is increasing. Before i got started, I just had the idea of having dissolved gold in a plastic container, that was my profit. I won't be able to spend it without extraction, so it will take work for me to get to that money. It would be cool to just let the gallon fill up. Maybe years down the road have a few gallons and extract it when the gold prices are higher.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 12, 2014)

pu_239 said:


> Before i got started, I just had the idea of having dissolved gold in a plastic container, that was my profit. I won't be able to spend it without extraction, so it will take work for me to get to that money. It would be cool to just let the gallon fill up. Maybe years down the road have a few gallons and extract it when the gold prices are higher.


The risk in keeping your gold in liquid form is that bottles can break and plastic containers can fail. Better to precipitate it. Powders are easier to recover in case of an accident.

Welcome to the forum.

Dave


----------



## pu_239 (Dec 12, 2014)

FrugalRefiner said:


> pu_239 said:
> 
> 
> > Before i got started, I just had the idea of having dissolved gold in a plastic container, that was my profit. I won't be able to spend it without extraction, so it will take work for me to get to that money. It would be cool to just let the gallon fill up. Maybe years down the road have a few gallons and extract it when the gold prices are higher.
> ...



Yes that's a better idea, thanks.


----------



## lazersteve (Jan 8, 2015)

pu_239 said:


> ...
> 
> A link i have also been trying to find is a a link by lasersteve, it was a little chart, I think it had "6M HCl and 0.22M H2O2 at 50 degree's C" and a few other temperature based reactions. I haven't been able to find it, i searched every where.



The chart is the dissolution rate chart and several other useful links:

Etch Rate Chart

Steve


----------



## Pantherlikher (Jan 8, 2015)

So how'd you do on your finals? 
Great hopefully.
Do any good reading since then?
Make any connections on this adventure?

I AP all I can and save any nice n shiny flakes in a bottle sitting next to my mouse here to keep me focused on learning more... 
Always move forward...

B.S.


----------

