# can Pd be refined like silver



## shyknee (May 1, 2010)

Can Pd be refined like silver

you know Pd put into solution with nitric.
Dropped with copper
melted into bar
then processed in a cell with Pd in nitric solution to form Pd crystals :?:


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## Harold_V (May 1, 2010)

I don't know of an electrical process for parting palladium, but melting large lots is likely beyond your ability. It would be an overwhelming task with a crucible furnace due to the high temperature at which palladium melts (2825°F). 

Harold


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## Oz (May 1, 2010)

Harold,

What gasses did you use or try for melting and making/casting a button or bar of Pd?


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## Lou (May 1, 2010)

He most probably used oxymethane. Oxyacetylene is not recommended. Oxyhydrogen, of the oxyfuel mixtures is the best.


Obviously, induction is the way to go.


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## Harold_V (May 1, 2010)

Oz said:


> Harold,
> 
> What gasses did you use or try for melting and making/casting a button or bar of Pd?


Early on, I used oxy/acet---but when I moved to the castle and built my lab, I used oxy/natural gas. 

Because of the risk of forming carbides, oxy/acet isn't a recommended heat source. As long as you keep the flame on the oxidizing side, it can serve the purpose, in spite of not being recommended.

I never tried to cast any ingots of palladium----what little I melted was simply allowed to freeze in the melting dish, at which time it was removed. If memory serves, I melted palladium only a few times. When I sold my palladium, it was sold as sponge. 

As Lou alluded, nothing compares to induction where melting is concerned. Heating is fast and sure, assuming the induction unit is a good fit with the product involved. Frequency, in induction heating, is very critical to performance. 

Harold


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## shyknee (May 1, 2010)

Harold , Lou 
the question was just academic ,I would use MAPP gas and oxygen to melt a quarter sized button to use as anode in a cell (like a silver cell) with Pd sheet at cathode
now i was thinking the nitric would have to be saturated with Pd.
would it electro-form or would it grow crystal or slog of the cathode

or what acid makeup would help this workout


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## 4metals (May 1, 2010)

Seeing as you will need high purity palladium for anode materials, unless you are coming across these materials already, one would assume you've refined already and generated a palladium salt to reduce to make metal for your anodes. Why not clean it up as a salt and refine it that way (the classic way) instead of re-inventing the wheel? I've never heard of anyone doing this on any kind of production scale.


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## shyknee (May 1, 2010)

4metals
thanks for your response 

would it be possible to grow a Pd crystal like the silver crystal ?
not trying to reinvent the wheel or produce a product, just thought it would be interesting to try and grow one.
the experiment would be small scale . but if it cannot be done (this is what I am asking ) then i won't even try it
yes a lot of palladium will be tied up in trying this


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## 4metals (May 1, 2010)

Palladium nitrate solutions could theoretically plate out pure palladium metals just as silver nitrate cells do, the catch is at what concentration of palladium nitrate is the solution the most efficient and what current density. 

Also the tolerance for impurities has to be determined as there is a point at which impurities will co-deposit and effect the purity of the cathode. Depending on the source for the anode material and its original purity, the impurities may be copper, silver, or many other metals which exhibit a nitrate chemistry and will influence the purity of the deposit. 

Sounds like a project for a lab with some decent analytical capabilities.


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## goldsilverpro (May 1, 2010)

> Can Pd be refined like silver


No.


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## shyknee (May 1, 2010)

4metals thanks i value you getting back to me on that.
so i will have to refine the Pd first to red powder that should be as pure as i can get it
then use that Pd melt and set up to run some trial runs 
know I was thinking the Palladium nitrate solution would have to be saturated so that it cannot dissolve the anode or the cathode any further 

you said "could theoretically plate out pure palladium metals just as silver nitrate cells do" that is what i needed to here 
the fact is I quit smoking and my mind needs an occupation. when i try it i will post results whether it works or not with pics and conditions

again thanks


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## Harold_V (May 1, 2010)

If it's any encouragement, because I processed a fair amount of dental scrap, on rare occasion I would have an excess of palladium included in my recovered cement silver, from which I made my anodes. When parting such material, on one occasion the resulting silver contained traces of palladium, made evident when I used the recovered silver crystals to make new electrolyte. In order to remove the traces of palladium, I simply parted the crystals, placing an anode on top of the basket full, to insure electrical contact. It worked perfectly well. 

The point being that palladium will co-deposit, although I am unable to describe its appearance. It most likely will not be like silver, just as gold isn't like silver when parted in a Wohlwill cell. The deposit of gold is nodular in nature. Palladium may deposit as a soft sponge, nodular, or even crystalline in nature, but I expect that it won't be anything useful, which likely accounts for the reason that it is generally purified chemically. 

Looking forward to reading of your success, or lack thereof. 

Harold


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## shyknee (May 2, 2010)

thanks Harold for that insight.
I am hopping for crystal or nodule not sponge 
i have to try it before peter-i starts thinking about it, although I did enjoy all of those posts on large silver crystals.
i wonder what he is up to now .if your out there peter_i , hope your healthy and happy 

thanks again Harold


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## Lou (May 2, 2010)

Shyknee, if you're up for selling your Pd, do tell!


Lou


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## shyknee (May 2, 2010)

thanks for the offer and sooner or later i will sell it. i will let you know first .but for now i just want to play and expand my mind .

I will probably sell all when I run out of nitric (only 6 liters left) and i wil not be making it my self .


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## shyknee (May 2, 2010)

sorry GSP I was just reviewing this thread top to bottom and I missed your post some how, I do type very slow . ya 20 mins slow :x 
there it was the word "no" is there any short explanation .
that "no" discourages me from trying , because i value your knowledge .


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## goldsilverpro (May 2, 2010)

shyknee,



> sorry GSP I was just reviewing this thread top to bottom and I missed your post some how, I do type very slow . ya 20 mins slow :x
> there it was the word "no" is there any short explanation .
> that "no" discourages me from trying , because i value your knowledge .



Please don't stop experimenting just because of what I say. Your original question was, "can Pd be refined like silver?" and then you went on to describe this. It was as though you were asking if you could replace the Ag with Pd and run it exactly the same way as Ag is run. To this, I would say no. I don't really know what you would get but, as 4metals intimated, the parameters would surely not be the same and, any Ag in the anode bars would surely be a problem. I would also doubt that you would get crystals. That's why I said no.


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## shyknee (May 2, 2010)

thanks GSP


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## butcher (May 2, 2010)

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5250166/description.html
maybe someting here?


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## shyknee (May 3, 2010)

thanks butcher
that patent was good news


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