# Thiosulphate Dropped--Testing for PM?



## Ferrell

Sorry, I wasn't sure what subject line to use with this. I'll post pics so you can see what I'm talking about. 

First, we know we have gold and silver in our ore, as it's been tested by 3 different labs (one only tested for gold), but no one tested for the platinum group. We also know it's pretty much all (probably 95%) microscopic and must be collected using chemicals, as it's not free gold and can't be panned. The gold tested (depending on the ore sample) from 5 to 9 oz per ton, the silver approx 3-4. 

My husband & I have been running test samples on 2 1/2 -3 lbs of ore, using 2 /12 to 3 gal of thiosulphate leach, then dropping with ferrous sulfate. Our understanding is, that if done correctly, thio leach will only capture gold, silver, and platinum groups. We've kept our ph between 9 and 9.2 until time to drop, so we know we're not losing or prematurely dropping any gold. Once we do the drop, we're getting about 150-180 ml of bright orange precipitant (measured prior to washing, right out of the separatory funnel, so a small amt of leach comes with it). 

It's almost impossible to catch this stuff on a filter (even a very tight, good quality one) as the precipitant is incredibly fine and goes right through until the filter eventually clogs. So we've been draining it off into a heavy glass container, hitting it with 10% hcl to clean, then following up with water to wash again. We let it settle, pour as much fluid off as possible, then slowly cook to dry. 

Here's our questions; 
Does anyone have a better way of cleaning this product without losing it through a filter? Yes, we can repour the precipitant back through the filter once it clogs, but it's also so fine that it's almost impossible (once it totally dries) to scrape much off the filter. I suppose if we had 4 times the quantity at a time (and we will have once we start doing larger runs) we'll have a lot more on the filter, but that brings up another problem. The filter clogs somewhat fast and by the time there's a thin layer of precipitant on it, it's difficult to get more wash fluid to drain off. So, suggestions on washing, or is what we're doing good enough?

Now, once it's washed, what do we do with it? Just evaporate off the fluid over low heat, scrape it out of the container into a container? We did put some of the dried precipitant onto a spoon and heated it to about 700 degrees or so last night, (the spoon was turning red on the tip, but we have a heat gun & it was reading around 700--up to 800 a couple of times). The powder turned a deep red-brown. Pics attached.

Next question, and this is the one we're really hoping to get an answer to:

Is there any way of testing the precipitant at home to see what metals we're pulling, or do we have to spend big bucks and send a variety of samples to a lab? We're working on a limited income for now, and while we'd love to be able to send them in (and eventually will) we're hoping there might be some poor man's tests we can do. Any ideas?

Thanks so much.... here are the pics I promised. The really deep orange precip on a filter was from an experiment we did putting some gold coated industrial pins in thio solution for 30 min., then dropping the same way we have our ore samples. Is it possible we picked up some copper that lay under the surface of the gold, as well, based on the deep orange hue?

The lighter orange color filter was from our ore, after washing, prior to heating. 

The closeup of the beaker showing the precip on the bottom was a very small sample, less than 800 ml, and it was still dropping when I took the pic. The pic of the flask shows the golden color we're getting right after adding the ferrous. There were tiny particles dropping but it doesn't show up on camera.


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## butcher

I have never done leaching with thiosulfate, so I am not sure what colors to look for. but that looks like iron to me rust red. what color powder does one gert with gold in thiosulfate?


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## Anonymous

The powder I get looks identical in color and texture,to the powder I get from AuCl.


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## Ferrell

mic said:


> The powder I get looks identical in color and texture,to the powder I get from AuCl.



Mic...are you saying you also use Thiosulphate as a leach? I'm not clear what you're saying here, can you clarify, please? Does the powder you get from your ore using thio leach look like this, or entirely different?


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## Anonymous

If you use zinc as your precipitant,for a thio-based solution,then the powder should look similar to the powder dropped from an AuCl solution.If you are using ferric chloride,or sodium metabisulphite as your precipitant,then I do not know what to tell you.It should be noted that I do not process "ore" from the ground,so there may be a difference ,you will need to ask Rick about that.
Added One simple way to test for PM's in your powder is to boil it in water,to remove any excess thio,and sodium hydroxide,then add Hcl.Wait to see if everything dissolves.If it does,then you know you probably have no values.If it does not,then add chlorine and test with stannous,then compare colors.


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## Harold_V

I am likely the worlds leading skeptic. A red flag goes up immediately when I read you have an ore the assays more than 5 ounces gold/ton. Not saying it isn't possible, but that's a hugely profitable deposit and not likely to be at anyone's disposal. 

That being said, the material you heated reminds me a great deal of iron. Why don't you try dissolving some with HCl, to see what happens? In Hoke you can read of a test for iron, so the resulting solution can be tested. 

If, after you've given the material a boil in HCl, there's still some solids present, add a few drops of HCL (at least four), then a drop of nitric. Allow it to work until action ceases (you should have consumed the nitric that way). You can then test the solution to determine if it contains gold. It may not. If it does, and you'd like to determine the presence of any platinum metals, place a drop of solution in a spot plate, to which you will add a crystal of ferrous sulfate. That will precipitate any gold that is present. You can then test the remaining solution with stannous chloride for platinum and palladium. If you get mixed results, you may wish to test another drop with DMG, to determine if there's palladium present. 

I'm not optimistic. 

How has the ore been assayed? Fire?

Harold


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## Ferrell

Harold_V said:


> I am likely the worlds leading skeptic. A red flag goes up immediately when I read you have an ore the assays more than 5 ounces gold/ton. Not saying it isn't possible, but that's a hugely profitable deposit and not likely to be at anyone's disposal.
> 
> That being said, the material you heated reminds me a great deal of iron.
> 
> How has the ore been assayed? Fire?
> 
> Harold




Harold, we appreciate your concern and questions, so I'll explain what we've learned so far. We sent two samples of 3 lbs of finely crushed ore to a lab in Idaho that runs extraction tests for large mining concerns around the U.S., as well as doing in-the-field work doing large extractions on tailings, and processes black sands at their facility, all using chemical extraction, and specifically only for gold. They won't take less than four tons of material at a time (and only take on a client via contract for ongoing material). This lab used SSN as their leach, followed with Butyl Diglyme, then oxalic acid. They washed, dried, and measured and gave us the results. One sample tested at 5-7 oz per ton, the other 8-9. 

After that, we shipped a 10 lb sample of finely crushed ore to a company that's been in business over 25 yrs, mining, processing and extracting. We spent parts of three days with the man watching him process our ore. He's not a full lab that's able to test for individual pm's after the drop, but he first dropped out the junk metals, then dropped the pm's, and agreed with the Idaho lab that there's a good quantity of microscopic gold, as well as silver. He suggested we send some samples to a lab and have them tested for platinum group, as well as telling us the % of each pm contained.

We have also successfully ran small batches of ore using SSN, butyl, and oxalic. We've talked to the company that manfactures butyl dyglyme, and it will only capture gold, nothing else. We are not excited about continuing to work with nitric as our leaching agent, due to disposal concerns, and wanted to find another one, so we switched to thiosulphate. 

Also, I put the wrong picture up of one of the filters....I put the one up twice that had the precip from the gold pins, so I removed it this morning and replaced with the correct 'golden' one that was from an ore run. Sorry about that.

We also know it's not iron, as it's not magnetic, and thio leach, if used properly and not allowed to drop below 9.0 during the leach time, will not pick up iron. We were very careful to check consistently on the ph, and it never dropped below 9.2. 

You said: "If, after you've given the material a boil in HCl, there's still some solids present, add a few drops of HCL (at least four), then a drop of nitric. Allow it to work until action ceases (you should have consumed the nitric that way). You can then test the solution to determine if it contains gold."

We basically have done that by taking the precip from the thio leach, putting into solution with SSN, then capturing it with butyl and precipitating it with oxalic. Our question is, is there some other way of running a test on our precip to find out what specific pm's there may be in it?


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## Ferrell

Harold_V said:


> If, after you've given the material a boil in HCl, there's still some solids present, add a few drops of HCL (at least four), then a drop of nitric. Allow it to work until action ceases (you should have consumed the nitric that way). You can then test the solution to determine if it contains gold. It may not. If it does, and you'd like to determine the presence of any platinum metals, place a drop of solution in a spot plate, to which you will add a crystal of ferrous sulfate. That will precipitate any gold that is present. You can then test the remaining solution with stannous chloride for platinum and palladium. If you get mixed results, you may wish to test another drop with DMG, to determine if there's palladium present.
> 
> Harold



Harold, just one more question. What strength of HCL are you using when you bring the material to a boil? We'd like to go through this process so we can test for platinum metals. We have 38% HCL, should we use that full strength, or dilute first? After we've put a crystal of ferrous sulphate in (which is what we're using on the thio leach to drop the metals), and we're ready to test the remaining solution, how much stannous chloride and should the solution still be hot/warm/room temp, or does it matter? And I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with what the designation is (DMG)? 

We don't have any stannous chloride on hand, is that easy to find/purchase? 

Thank you again


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## qst42know

Dimethylglyoxime = DMG. 

A yellow precipitate from an acidic solution is positive for palladium.


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## Ferrell

qst42know said:


> Dimethylglyoxime = DMG.
> 
> A yellow precipitate from an acidic solution is positive for palladium.




qst42...did you take a look at my picture of the golden colored precip on the filter? Do you mean more yellow than that? Not sure....
Thanks!


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## qst42know

I have no idea how it would appear in a thiosulfate leach. 

But dissolved in AR or nitric, stannous will detect it and with DMG a bright canary yellow.


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## Ferrell

qst42know said:


> I have no idea how it would appear in a thiosulfate leach.
> 
> But dissolved in AR or nitric, stannous will detect it and with DMG a bright canary yellow.




Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with what DMG is? Can you tell me the procedure for testing with stannous and DMG when using a nitric leach? We often use nitric with saturated salt, and still have left over solution that we'd love to test for any platinum group. 

Thanks!


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## qst42know

The book by Hoke available as a free download from several members signature line covers these tests and solution preparation better than I can.


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## Ferrell

qst42know said:


> The book by Hoke available as a free download from several members signature line covers these tests and solution preparation better than I can.



Thank you, we'll check that out.


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## butcher

Ferrell,
The red powder (in your picture above) looks like Iron hydroxide Fe(OH)3 (to me), once this iron compound forms it is hard to dissolve in acids (even aqua regia), this Iron powder, in my experience can also contain gold, which the aqua regia will put into solution easily, leaving the Iron pretty much un-dissolved ,

(But I do not believe this can remove all of gold from iron with this method (aqua regia) as I believe the iron will lock up gold into it, preventing you from leaching it out with this acid solution), (this I do not know for sure), (I believe you would need to convert the Iron hydroxide into elemental Iron to be able to get the Iron to dissolve into solution to effectively separate the gold from it.

(This is a problem I have been working on also).

Iron can also be yellow Fe (OH) 2 insoluble powder.

Not all iron compounds are magnetic (just look at hemitite and magnetite in ore).
Sometimes a non-magnetic Iron compound can be made magnetic by high heating, but also a magnetic Iron can be made nonmagnetic in using heat or chemical process.

Iron in solution can have green color, but can also look yellow or brown, to this rust red rouge color, it can look similar to gold powders,

Iron in solution can be tested using potassium thiocyanate, or ammonium thiocyanate, in spot plate will give a dark blood red color if positive for iron, this is a sensitive test.
(Very similar to stannous chloride test for gold, in that it will test for presence of metal in solution and being so sensitive of a test that will detect traces, and will not tell you how much {although it can indicate clues}).

Do not use this test if much nitric is in solution, because nitric will also give a red color with thiocyanate, mercury, oxalic acid can also interfere with this test, copper can give brown color, which may or may not obscure, the red color of iron.

(Potassium Ferro cyanide will also test for Iron in solution giving a blue color if iron is in solution).

You can read all about this and more in Hoke's book (see page 100 for the iron test).

I do not know for sure the powder in your picture is Iron but I looks like what I cook out of a strongly heated iron solution, it could possibly Iron and gold in those powders together, as I stated I have no experience with the thiosulfate leach, and do not now how it would react with iron compounds in your ore. 

Ore almost always has a very high Iron content, many times this iron can have many forms (chemistry involved in ore), and some may leach easily, (magnetic and nonmagnetic), some may cause problems, here is another area that pre-treating the ore can be very important to convert the troublesome compound into none troublesome compounds, roasting these Iron compounds to improve them (sometimes a chemical will be added in the roast, to help change the ore’s chemistry) (like lime, salt, salt peter, and so on). With out pre-treating the ore your leaching process may fail miserably.
Pretreatment of ore in my opinion may have more to do with success than the leach itself does, (many I think overlook this step as unimportant and wonder why they cannot get gold with this leaching processes

With the high gold content in your ore (you stated) I would think you should be able to remove much of this gold by roasting, powdering, classifying, and gravity separating, then leaching concentrates.

Reading Hoke's book will discuss testing values in solution, this is not a mining book but any miner wanting to be sucessful should read it and do her getting aquainted expieriments.

I am just a hobby miner and refiner learning this, so take what I say with a little salt.


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## Harold_V

butcher said:


> I am just a hobby miner and refiner learning this, so take what I say with a little salt.


Sorry, I don't agree. It is my suggestion that it be taken to the bank, no salt required. Everything you've stated is extremely useful and should be taken seriously. All too many have been mislead by their hopes instead of being properly lead by evidence. Following your advice should (and likely will) provide the needed evidence. It may not be what is desirable, but it will be the truth. 

One of the most valuable assets a person can have when working with ores is to remain skeptical. Do not look for minor reasons to support your desire to have what you hope to have---look for reasons why you are achieving results that may be similar to results that you hope to discover. That, in and of itself, will often disclose what is really present, instead of what is hoped to be present. 

Iron has tripped up many people that have stars in their eyes. 

Harold


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## Dr. Poe

Looks like gold to me! I've seen pure gold this color thousands of times. Check out my posts about nano-gold colloids, I think that your gold drop was incomplete. 8) Dr. Poe


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## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Looks like gold to me! I've seen pure gold this color thousands of times. Check out my posts about nano-gold colloids, I think that your gold drop was incomplete. 8) Dr. Poe



Thank you! I'd love to check out your posts, could you give me the url to find them, or do I just do a search using those words here on the forum? 

You said you think our gold drop was incomplete, can you please explain what you mean?

In reference to the posts by butcher and Harold, (thank you for all your input, we truly do appreciate it) I'd like to emphasize that the dark orange color on the one filter was from a few dozen computer pins. We checked the serial numbers against the manf web site which shows the composition of the pins. There was no iron in them at all, just copper, covered with a thin layer of gold. We assume we probably left them in the leach too long and it pulled some of the copper, along with the gold. I didn't take a picture, but we did half that number of pins a wk earlier, and left them in half as long. The result was a much lighter golden color almost identical to the other filter I posted showing the precip from our ore. 

Also, the lab in Idaho told us that they had no problem whatsoever with iron interfering with their tests on leaching and dropping the gold from our ore. Same with the tests run in Arizona. Ore didn't cause any problems. Also, on the threads that deal with Thiosulphate leach, Sawmill stated (and was acknowledged as having the most experience with thio leach) that iron won't be collected or cause a problem with the leaching process as long as the ph is kept above 9.0. Ours was. That's not to say we might not be doing something wrong along the way, and we know we still have much to learn, just stating what was posted by someone else with a lot of experience with thio leach. 

Not trying to argue with the experts on this thread, just wanting to point out that we _have_ been researching to some degree already. And that the company in Idaho is reputable and did thorough testing for gold, as did the company in Arizona, so we're fairly comfortable that their results were accurate, if not exact. 

I will download Hoke when I'm able. We're on dial-up here at home and it's a 2 MB file, way too big to handle on dial-up.


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## tlcarrig

Looks as though no one has paid any attention to your first question.

"Here's our questions; 
Does anyone have a better way of cleaning this product without losing it through a filter?" 

If your assays show a minimum of 5ozt/ton, You need to take that to an investor and get enough to get a centrifuge. That should help with the filtering problem.


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## Ferrell

tlcarrig said:


> "Here's our questions;
> Does anyone have a better way of cleaning this product without losing it through a filter?"
> 
> If your assays show a minimum of 5ozt/ton, You need to take that to an investor and get enough to get a centrifuge. That should help with the filtering problem.



Thanks for your excellent suggestion, Terry! We've talked briefly about this possibility in the past, but are a bit leery of doing it. The ore deposit is on our own home property. We want to do it to make an income, pay off our home, etc., if it all works out. If we involve an investor, our concern is they'll want to go deeper/faster/and take more out that we're comfortable with, potentially destroying the aesthetic value of the land. It would be great if we could find the right kind of person, but as investors typically want a sizable and somewhat fast (if possible) return on their money, it could lead to problems we'd rather not deal with, if that makes sense.


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## Dr. Poe

Ferrell; You can view my posts simply by typing "Dr. Poe" in the search box. Thiosulphate used to be (wrongly) called "hypo".
Photo labs recycle their "hypo" solutions through a bucket filled with plain steel wool. The gold , silver and PGM's were adsorbed onto the steel wool, cleaning the solution for reuse. Notice that I wrote "adsorbed" and not "absorbed". They then sold the bucket to people like me (us) to be smelted. It's quite easy to smelt gold from steel wool.
I hope this might help you. Dr. Poe :mrgreen:


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## butcher

Good thought Dr, POE, my concern is this Iron may be a sulfate, I would think elemental iron may be needed in melt, what do you think.


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## Dr. Poe

I'm sorry, I goofed.  I should have read the post more carefully. It said that ferrous sulfate was used to drop the gold from the solution. It's true that I've seen gold powders of a mauve-red color thousands of times, but this time butcher is most likely right. Here's my notes from 20 years ago:
SODIUM GOLD THIOSULFATE (MONO-VALENT), Na3[Au(S2O3)2-2H2O
A solution of HAuCl4 is added slowly with constant stirring to a slight excess of sodium thiosulfate 
solution. Some sulfur dioxide gas is liberated and a little sulfur separates. After filtering, Na3[Au(S2O3)2-2H2O is precipitated by addition of absolute alcohol. It is a colorless compound, very soluble in water, but insoluble in alcohol. It loses it's water of crystallization at 150-160C without decomposition. This complex is so stable that it is not reduced to metal by ferrous sulfate, SO2, or stannous chloride. It's very important to keep ammonia and acetylene (and map gas) away from this compound as 
it will explode very violently! Recovery of the gold is made by soaking in a vessel of steel wool (not stainless). The gold is adsorbed onto the metallic iron/steel.
Again, I apologize, You will need to cupel a sample. Don't just wrap it in lead or bismuth. Start with the oxide of lead or bismuth. add iron/steel nails to the melt, then cupel the prill.
Dr. Poe


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## samuel-a

Dr. Poe



Dr. Poe said:


> A solution of HAuCl4 is added slowly with constant stirring to a slight excess of sodium thiosulfate
> solution. Some sulfur dioxide gas is liberated and a little sulfur separates. After filtering, Na3[Au(S2O3)2-2H2O is precipitated by addition of absolute alcohol. It is a colorless compound, very soluble in water, but insoluble in alcohol. It loses it's water of crystallization at 150-160C without decomposition. This complex is so stable that it is not reduced to metal by ferrous sulfate, SO2, or stannous chloride.



I don't follow you here, may you explain further...?


Is there a way to reduce metalic gold from thiosulfate leach?


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## Dr. Poe

samuel-a said:


> Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> A solution of HAuCl4 is added slowly with constant stirring to a slight excess of sodium thiosulfate
> solution. Some sulfur dioxide gas is liberated and a little sulfur separates. After filtering, Na3[Au(S2O3)2-2H2O is precipitated by addition of absolute alcohol. It is a colorless compound, very soluble in water, but insoluble in alcohol. It loses it's water of crystallization at 150-160C without decomposition. This complex is so stable that it is not reduced to metal by ferrous sulfate, SO2, or stannous chloride.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't follow you here, may you explain further...?
> 
> 
> Is there a way to reduce metalic gold from thiosulfate leach?
Click to expand...

The Iron/steel wool. An iron, titanium nitride or stainless anode. This leach is able to leach gold from carbonaceous ores. God, uses this leach to bring gold up from the depths of the earth. The pressure on quartz veins produces a low voltage that reduces gold. If a reagent won't reduce gold to metallic from a cyanide solution, it surely won't from a thiosulfate leach as thiosulfate gold is more stable than the double alkali cyanide leach. Zinc chips work better than zinc powder, but finely divided iron (steel wool) works best. Gold in this leach is in a plus one state, but the complex over all is a negative charge. It decomposes on the anode. The presence in the chloride leaches for gold prevent precipitation and account for loses mostly from natural earth ores. You need almost 6 volts to electrowin or electroplate gold from thiosulfates (1.68 + 1.68 = 3.36 + 0.79 (hydrogen build up on the cathode) = 4.15 minimum; hence 6 volts DC is my recommendation. I don't like to use zinc in this situation due to formation of zinc sulfide.
I don't fiddle with them, steel wool is my method of choice. The sodium thiosulfate is then reusable.
It rejects iron. It's the differential voltage that makes the steel wool work. The total voltage, that is from a larger area of the steel wool. Sodium thiosulfate is great for difficult natural ores, but I don't like it for processing scrap.
Dr. Poe :|


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## butcher

Sulfide’s with gold, melting with iron, there is a chemical reaction in the melt (replacement reaction), the iron (I believe) makes iron sulfide (robbing the gold of the sulfide), Iron which will give off SO2 gas in melt easily, also converting some sulfide to sulfur that burns off as SO2 gas(where gold would not release this gas easily and may just melt as gold sulfide without any iron had been added to melt) once sulfur removed from iron it is most likely just rust Iron oxide absorbed into the slag, and gold reduced to metal in button (of coarse would need refining).

I do not know if this would be true of the gold retrieved as gold thiosulfate (gold sulfate compounds) but I am guessing it may be.

(This is what I believe happens; maybe someone can rephrase this to make more sense.) 

Dr.Poe, 
Great post, I have a question,

"The sodium thiosulfate is then reusable.
It rejects iron"


(Can you describe this in easy to understand terms) what I do not understand is:
Ok If I dissolved gold or silver in thio sulfate (Hypo), and used Iron to replace these metals in solution (to me this means the iron goes into solution as a thiosulfate compound plating or cementing out the gold or silver from solution).

My question is how the thiosulfate rejects iron easily (on its own or through another treatment), and if it rejects iron easy why would it not just precipitate this iron with the gold (although the melt would reject iron from gold I assume), I do not quite understand this.


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## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> I'm sorry, I goofed.  I should have read the post more carefully. It said that ferrous sulfate was used to drop the gold from the solution. It's true that I've seen gold powders of a mauve-red color thousands of times, but this time butcher is most likely right.
> Dr. Poe



Dr. Poe, just a quick note here that everyone seems to be missing on two of my posts: The mauve-red/gold color on the filter you're referring to, was a result of leaching pins that were copper covered with a thin layer of gold. NO iron or any other metal is contained in them, just copper and gold. 

The OTHER pic of the filter that is light golden is from our ore. We've been told by a man who's spent years using thiosulphate leach, that iron will not interfere with this leach or go into solution as long as the ph is kept above 9.0 when leaching (which we did), or the leach is allowed to sit too long (which we didn't). 

Also, we did tests on this same ore using SSN, butyl diglyme, and oxalic acid, and captured/dropped gold, not iron. Butyl will not capture anything other than gold, so we know (when we did those tests) that we didn't drop any iron. If there's too much copper in the ore/solution, the butyl will turn milky, and our solution has never done so.


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## butcher

Copper is easily dissolved from gold.
If just gold and copper in sulfate form (thiosulfates), roasting to drive off sulfate as SO2 gas (roast red hot, Iron nails in roast would possibly be good idea also), then dissolve copper (iron) with one of many methods available on forum (HCL/H2O2, or nitric acid, or sulfuric acid), leaving you recovered gold to refine.

Copper sulfate is normally blue crystals.
These powders in picture above (look red to me), if it is copper thiosulfate, I do not recognize, as I have never used your method, and have not leached using thiosulfates.

Was this new thiosulfate solution or could it have had Iron in mix?
Could of pins be made of Kovar containing iron?

(Seems I remember a member saying gold from thiosulfate leach was brown to black like gold precipitated from a chloride solution, if so then iron red and brown gold could be mixed in this red mystry powder).

untill you do some testing it is just speculation what you have.

Iron can be tested for. Here is what we have been discussing the gold in and (Iron if that is what red powder is) as thiosulfates.

And Dr. discussing cementing gold from solution using Iron wool makes a lot of sense; this may be a useful tool here.

I do not think we are too far off topic.


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## Dr. Poe

I think there is gold mixed into an iron salt. I'm guessing that the iron salt was from the ferrous sulfate that was added.
I think that the ferrous sulfate precipitated something else, but not gold. I repeat: The reason that the steel wool works 
isn't that the wool dissolves or cements or displaces but acts as an electroplater. In photography, gold salts used to tint black and white photos don't corrode the silver or replace it, just sticks to the silver. The electromotive difference causes a voltage to flow between different metals. It's this electricity that cleans the gold from the solution. You have a 1.68 volts 
push from the gold joining with the metallic iron pull volts of 0.77 totaling 2.45 volts available for reduction. Even though the voltage is less than I like, the enormous surface area of the steel wool some how amplifies the voltage.
Activated carbon does the same thing for cyanide leaches. The carbon doesn't dissolve into the leach, just "adsorbs" the gold onto the surface. Type "adsorption vs absorption" on Google or wiki. They can probably explain it better. Now if the ferrous sulfate did manage to reduce something to metal from the sodium gold thiosulfate, that metal would most certainly react with the gold coming down together. Now also the sodium gold thiosulfate is alkaline, and alkali doesn't corrode iron at normal temperatures. Although sodium thiosulfate doesn't like iron, it doesn't mean that it doesn't like iron sulfide. And I'm sure it likes copper sulfide. Selenium (red) in the ore could cause this enigma as well. That would automatically include copper.
Dr. Poe :mrgreen:


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## butcher

Dr. Poe I am going to have to read what you said a couple of times, and I will look up adsorption verses absorption, I can see much information in your statement once I can completely understand it.

I can see where carbon absorbs or adsorbs (soaks up inside or clings to outside attraction) gold without exchanging electrons, or one metal powder may stick to another metal powder (crystallize together without electron transfer), but in my mind electrical potential necessarily would not be a factoring this case. 

But as far as I understand in chemistry or electrolytically (plating, cementing, chemical displacement, redox reactions, oxidation or reduction, an electron is exchanged, one metal or chemical looses an electron the other gains an electron,) here the potential voltage is created and would be a factor, or the potential difference of metals in solution.

Two different metals in solution acidic or alkaline, will give a potential difference, one loses an electron the other gains an electron (so one become negative the other positive) as in a battery an electro-chemical reaction takes place (this is theory behind a battery, electroplating and cementing of a metal out of solution onto another metal), 

Or when a metal is dissolved in solution (metal ion) and an elemental metal (higher in the electromotive series is place in this solution, an electron is transferred, the metal ion gains an electron plates or cements out (reduced) the elemental metal dissolves to become a metal ion in solution (oxidized) here there is electrical flow of current (electrons moving)

So when you mention a potential difference (voltage), and then it just sticks to with push and pull of voltage (like magnetism) (although magnetism has a lot of properties we use in electricity is a completely different field) this makes my head spin.

Sometimes how you say things confuse me (and almost seem polarized to how I have learned them).

I will go read adsorption verses absorption, and see if that helps.
See ya later 
dizzy.


1. Absorption happens when atoms pass through or enter a bulky material like sponges.
2. Adsorption happens when the atoms settle or accumulate on the surface of a material rather than literally entering or diffusing into that same material.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption
Ok I have done some reading will read more later, from what I see adsorption or absorption (stuck to outside or sucked up inside), this has nothing to do with electron transfer, so why the discussion of potiental difference?

my head is spinning faster now.

dizzyer
edit spinning head spelling


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## Dr. Poe

If you remember that to become an ion the element must become either a proton donor or an electron donor. The gold in solution is a proton donor, the metallic iron is an electron donor. Electricity is not a flow of protons but of electrons. Electron flow needs only a circle (circuit) and a potential difference. Gold is so easily reduced that the slightest voltage provides it with an electron to neutralize the +1 to zero( +1 + -1 = 0) . This would be all there is too it, except it isn't. There's some really complicated math here involved with sodium aurous thiosulfate. I'm getting a headache just trying to remember it. It's a good thing that I'm no longer in college, I might get a lower grade because of this mathematics demon. I think, If I remember even close to being right, that the trisodium sulfur/sulfurtrioxides are holding the gold ion in some kind of circle or box that has to be temporarily broken for the gold +1 ion to be able to react with the reduction elements. Once broken. the gold is released and the circle closes back again. Damn. I'd probably get a D on this paper. Anyway, the stability exceeds the small voltage given by ferrous sulfate, SO2, Stannous chloride, etc. All these reductants give only a single electron whereas metallic iron has three electrons to donate. Still, makes our heads swim (painfully) to fully understand it. I bet there's a metallurgist on the forum who can explain this better than me. :?: 
Dr. Poe


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## butcher

When an electron moves from one place to another, or one atom to another that is electrical flow.
In our discussion this electron flow is an electro chemical reaction (electron transfer).
We do not have to have an external circuit for electrons to move from one atom to another.
Granted this electron flow will not light a light bulb without an external circuit, but it can put off work as heat in a chemical reaction.

Back to the problem here, did Ferrell use ferrous sulfate to try and precipitate gold from this alkaline thiosululfate leach?

if so could the acidic Iron sulfate precipitant have raised the pH of the thiosulfate leach (if excess used, and would this not effect reactions involved)?

Dr. Poe you mentioned thiosulfate leach (alkaline solution would not like iron 
(Do you mean it normally will not put elemental iron into solution)?
And if not what about the iron sulfate salt added would it also stay in solution (normally precipitating the gold) if so why (pH change or what, why would this oxidized iron ion stay in solution).

Poe, You also stated: it doesn't mean that it doesn't like iron sulfide. And I'm sure it likes copper sulfide. (Dr Poe, are you saying these would go into the alkaline leach)? 
Normally I think of sulfides as being very insoluble (one reason gold ore is hard to leach is the gold sulfide is hard to break without roasting off the sulfides before hand?


Ferrell, what pretreatments did you do to this ore?
Crushing, roasting, concentration, pre-leaching and other treatments?
This may be your trouble; if ore is not prepared the leach will most likely be unsuccessful.
High sulfide may need roasting with metallic iron in roast to convert the sulfides in ore to metal or rid sulfur and sulfur compounds of ore ,(sulfides are very common), you should find out the chemistry of your ore to determine how to treat it,

Finding out what your ore contains (chemistry wise) may help you to determine pre-treatment, and leach needed, also decide what process would work best,
Do not go by so and so have success with this or that treatment of their ore, what works for one ore will not necessarily work for another, the chemistry involved can be completely different.

Treatment of ore is much more complex than simply picking up some leach and getting out the gold, you may need to chemically change the properties of the ore before a leach will work, or change the leach or conditions or everything. And just because one leach works great on one type of ore it may fail miserably on another type of ore.
I think you may need to go back to the beginning of the process and make sure all of your ducks are in the row.

Gold would not be very valuable if it was easy to get.


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## Platdigger

Butcher, you said: "Normally I think of sulfides as being very insoluble (one reason gold ore is hard to leach is the gold sulfide is hard to break without roasting off the sulfides before hand?"

This is one of the things that makes leaching with thiosulfate atractive, no need to roast a sulfide ore.

It seems to me you are trying to take everything you have learned about dissoving gold with acids, to try and make sence of this thiosulfate, which is a bit different, as you can see.


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## butcher

Platdigger, your very right, (I am applying the principles I understand probably to the wrong solutions), I am trying to understand this, and also learn the chemistry involved, so are you saying the thiosulfate will break the gold sulfide bond, and dissolve gold into solution (without a roast) and if so does gold remain a sulfide or become a soluble sulfate.

I guess it is hard for me to understandthe principles involved when were on this side of pH scale.

why would not other base metals also dissolve in this lower pH, and keep gold from dissolving or push it back out of solution if base metals are involved.

Platdigger, maybe I am not going to learn this by discussion here, maybe I should do research in another way anyone know of good books on this subject?


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## Barren Realms 007

The instructions I have on thiosulphate state that is has a tendency to leach more base metals out of your material at a high PH than it does at a low PH and recomends that the solution be used at a ph of .1-1. Any comments on this?


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## butcher

That statment seems to contridict itself pH 1 is acid.
maybe it was read wrong? or just a misprint?


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## Barren Realms 007

butcher said:


> That statment seems to contridict itself pH 1 is acid.
> maybe it was read wrong? or just a misprint?



They recomend it's use on the acid side.


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## Dr. Poe

SODIUM GOLD THIOSULFATE (MONO-VALENT), Na3[Au(S2O3)2-2H2O Is the form in "hypo" that we most are familiar. In nature, from hydrothermal vents, geysers, and hot springs it looks like clear to smoky white quartz and is usually associated and encapsulated in quartz. It's very soluble in water, but the dehydrated version less so. Practically invisible, it's usual crystal form is in a "planar" structure. In other words, it makes white flakes. Addition of muriatic acid (HCl) to a leach doesn't change it's basic formulation, but replaces the water of crystallization ( Na3[Au(S2O3)2-2HCl). Non-metallic reduction agents still won't precipitate the gold. This is the main reason most decide to roast the ores prior to leaching. It ranks in the upper 60% of the reasons that refiners lose their gold. Most advise cementation followed by resolution of the solid with AR after decantation and washing of the cemented metals. In the natural, voltage from compressed quartz grows gold crystals slowly. Some cities, like Phoenix, Arizona have spring owners that run the ground water through an activated carbon tower prior to introducing the water to the system just to get the gold. One man told me that he makes up to 4 cents a gallon from the gold within the water. Since he processes thousands of gallons per hour, his money belt is quite heavy. There will be 
a lot of happy people to read this post. There will also be a lot of people that wanted this to stay a secret that will hate me for revealing their "Magician's tricks". Please don't tell them where I live. Dr. Poe :lol:


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## Ferrell

Platdigger said:


> Butcher, you said: "Normally I think of sulfides as being very insoluble (one reason gold ore is hard to leach is the gold sulfide is hard to break without roasting off the sulfides before hand?"
> 
> This is one of the things that makes leaching with thiosulfate attractive, no need to roast a sulfide ore.
> 
> It seems to me you are trying to take everything you have learned about dissoving gold with acids, to try and make sence of this thiosulfate, which is a bit different, as you can see.




We didn't do any roasting, either, as we were told by a man who's been successful at using thiosulphate for leaching microscopic gold, that he doesn't pre-roast or pretreat the ore. We didn't do any pretreatment when using the SSN & Butyly diglyme, either, as the lab that tested our ore said it wasn't necessary for that particular treatment. They were able to successfully extract gold from our ore using this method with no pretreatment.


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## Platdigger

Butcher, I learned what little I know about leaching gold with thiosulfate, mostly by reading and studying different patents on the subject.


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## butcher

I have been trying to find out more about this thiosulfate leach, have not found very much useful information on it yet.

but it seems the ammonia and copper can act as a catalyst in the reaction, in correct proportions will form some type of copper amine catalyst Cu(NH3)3, (helping to promote the chemical reaction of the leach but not being chemically part of it).

Problem if too much copper it will spoil the leach, as copper will also form a complex with thiosulfate, Cu(S2O3)3. Too much added copper tends to precipitate as cupric sulfide.

Too much or lack of ammonia in solution is important to leach, as the copper forms Cu(NH3)3 with copper.

Cupric Ion is what acts as oxidizer in leach.
With the oxygen (bubbled air) is what regenerates the(cupric) Cu 2+ ion, and when doing this leaves S2O3 thiosulfate to complex with gold.

Oxidative degradation of thiosulfate to polythionates and sulfates is accelerated markedly in the presence of excess copper ions and/or ammonia. The oxidative degradation reactions are slowed considerably at elevated oxygen partial pressure in the absence or near-absence of copper and ammonia.

If copper or ammonia in solution is not in proper proportions it seems the chemistry may not work well at leaching gold. 
(and I assume may just carry base metals like iron in solution my guess here)

Too much copper seems to also lead to Oxidative degradation of thiosulfate to polythionates and sulfates is accelerated markedly in the presence of excess copper ions and/or ammonia in leach, too little ammonia will not form copper catalyst needed,
(which I believe would not form insoluble iron hydroxides, and this may just leave iron in solution)

Lead oxide will also form a complex PbO(S2O3)2 no mention of conditions needed,

Minerals of gold like chalcopyrite , and pyrite can be leached, from what I understand is chalcopyrite will break down easily in this leach.

but the pyrite crystals do not release the contained gold and seem to only soften,these hard pyrite crystals do not decompose much in thiosulfate leach, thus preventing leach from getting gold from them, although the free gold will leach easily (if conditions are maintained favorable condition in this leach.
(which seems to me would be like trying to juggle a basket full of rotten tomatoes while standing on your head) 

the pyrite may hold considerable portion of gold locked up in its crystal bond,besides free gold this cold be a major portion of your gold in these pyrite bonds, and should be DECOMPOSED (broken down before leaching) to me this means to roast ore PRETREATMENT and break sulfide pyrite bond with gold.

if ammonia and copper is maintained in proper proportions : copper ions are a key factor to this leach along with ammonia, too much or too little of either and leach will not work properly, 
Copper will be in solution as a copper amine (unless too much copper or not enough ammonia) too much copper, or too little ammonia copper sulfide forms, 

Ammonia is important to keep leach balanced (copper in solution)

Ammonia is also very important to Iron (a major portion of most ore)
As the ammonia changes iron to Fe(NH3)3
Then Fe(NH3)3 + OH- --> Fe(OH)3

Fe(OH)3 is what that the (red powder in photo) looks like to me iron hydroxide.

(I believe but cannot find anything to prove this yet:
That if leach was not run properly Iron would NOT precipitate iron as Iron hydroxide, and would possibly be in solution (pH improper or too much ammonia in solution or possible lack of ammonia,) , (copper may be replaced by iron in solution if lack of ammonia), this is a guess here on my part).


During leaching ferric oxide, Iron hydroxide and elemental sulfur will be in solids and copper in solution acting as oxidizer (oxygen rejuvenating the cupric Ion) and gold will be left with the thiosulfate IF this leach is working and IF all conditions are maintained in solution, (< 9 pH, and temperature also seem to be factors).

Gold with free thiosulfate:
4Au + 8S2O3 --> 4Au(S2O3)2


This seems to me would be a very difficult leach to maintain in proper working order.
And my study of this so far reaffirms my belief the red powder in picture is iron, with possibly some gold (or your gold may have never been leached out) (but I have been wrong many times before).

Testing on what you have should be done to determine what happened and what is where.
Do tests for iron and gold. 
without testing all of us just shooting in the dark trying to guess what is going on.
when some simple tests will tell you for sure.

Now you had another solution you mentioned leaching gold plated copper pins, and stated you also had a red (or orange I cannot remember )colored powder you thought was copper. I really was not concerned with this powder or solution, but only if you dissolved the copper and then reduced it back to metal would it give a red-brown color, otherwise I would expect Green, blue or white copper powders.
I would not use thiosulfate leach for gold plated copper pins, if you do not see why re-read the above statements.


(If leaching gold with this thiosulfate leach, and maintaining leach in favorable conditions was like trying to juggle a basket full of rotten tomatoes while standing on your head, then trying to leaching gold from copper metal pins may just upset your balance and you can make something similar to Cambells toe mater soup).

This seems that it would be a fast and effective leach but almost impossible to get it, and keep it working properly, without closely monitoring pH, ammonia, cupric ions. Copper sulfide, sulfur, and iron hydroxide, or at least monitor some of these in solution to be able to keep conditions working in this leach.

some of you Guy's are saying this is an acid leach? (I keep reading it is maintained less than pH 9), (pH 7 is neutral), (above pH 7 is caustic or alkaline), (and some have been talking alkaline), the leach works with ammonia in solution (an alkaline solution), (granted < pH 9 could be acidic if it was way below pH 9,(actually below pH7), but then you could not keep the ammonia or the amines in solution) so one of us has this wrong.
what is it alkaline or acid? (looks alkaline to me), (but then again I have no expierience useing this leaching process).

my two red cents


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## Barren Realms 007

I have run 3-4 test runs of plated pins in the leach on the acidic side, not to recover the gold because it would be such a small quantity but just to see what would happen if the pins were left in the solution for a prolonged period of time, the copper was never attacked by the solution that I could tell.


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## Ferrell

Barren Realms 007 said:


> The instructions I have on thiosulphate state that is has a tendency to leach more base metals out of your material at a high PH than it does at a low PH and recomends that the solution be used at a ph of .1-1. Any comments on this?




The man who instructed us on using thiosulphate said to keep it at 9.0 to 9.2 during the entire leach time.


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## Dr. Poe

:mrgreen: You guys are more than starting to understand. Iron in solution precipitates as hydroxide at pH 9, so stay below pH9. Some bubble air like as if a cyanide leach. This is good as pyrite is oxidized to ferrous sulfate (Which doesn't reduce gold from this leach, remember?) Ammonia, I always shudder, as carbonaceous material can form explosives when ammonia is present. It's used when copper is sufficient, but I always thought the formation formed was ammonium poly-sulfide, which dissolves precious metal sulfides and copper sulfide quite readily. All this can still KILL you if you introduce map gas or acetylene into it (touch sensitive even when wet). Gold thiosulfates aka gold thionates operate on the acid side without decomposition (see my previous post) This helps dissolve the pyrites, releasing H2S, which redissolves with thionates affirming their formation. It's still going to stink! You can swing the pH back and forth several times to help disintegrate the ferrite and pyrites (and a whole lot more stink!). In nature it's the pyrites that act as reduction agents reducing gold thiosulfate (gold thionate) to metal. That takes a very long time to work (your grandchildren finishing it for you). This fact plus electric charge from compressed quartz causes the crystals of gold to grow in quartz (slowly). It's not as good to precipitate the gold from the acid side other than with electrodes. I still confirm that steel wool, on the alkaline side around pH 8.6 is the best way to recover your values. Welcome to advanced geochemistry!  Dr. Poe


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## Lino1406

is of course the FeSO4 used for "dropping".


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## freechemist

Cited from Ferrells very first posting:

_"My husband & I have been running test samples on 2 1/2 -3 lbs of ore, using 2 /12 to 3 gal of thiosulphate leach, then dropping with ferrous sulfate."_

Ferrous sulfate, FeSO4 is used to precipitate gold from strong acid solutions. If a neutral solution of FeSO4 is treated with an alkaline solution, iron(II)hydroxide (Fe(OH)2; green) is precipitated, which is oxidized rapidly by atmospheric oxygen to iron(III)hydroxide (Fe(OH)3; yellow to orange to brownish precipitate). Iron(III)hydroxide on strong heating looses water, finally forming iron(III)oxide (rust), a deep red-brown powder, like shown in your attached pics.

The doubly negative charged thiosulfate-anion; S2O3(2-) decomposes in only weakly acidic solution quickly into elemental sulfur (S) and sulfur dioxide (SO2):

S2O3(2-) + 2 H(+) => S + SO2 + H2O.

Thus, to prepare an acidic thiosulfate leach (pH lower than 7) is impossible. To clear the situation you can do a simple experiment. Take a sample of freshly prepared, unused thiosulfate-leach-solution without leaching an ore-sample, treat it with ferrous sulfate exactly the same way, you did with your test samples and look, what happens.

To me it seems also very important, like others recommended you, to roast your ore, before any further treatment, in an oxygen rich atmosphere, to convert as much as possible sulfidic compounds into SO2 finally. And, as a last recommendation, let analyze (or do it yourself if possible) your ore by the oldfashioned, but IMHO ever now must reliable methods, fire assay and gravimetric analysis. Thus, as a result you have something material in your hand (and on your balance). 

Good luck, freechemist


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## Ferrell

We recently realized my husband had premixed a batch of concentrate, and the copper sulfate (being so fine) would settle in spots in the canister. We worried we didn't have ratios correct so a few days ago we did a batch (3 gals of water) using the three ingredients, measuring separately. Wow, what a difference! When we did it before we must have had a much higher % of the thiosulfate, as our ph was always up around 8.5 after adding our ore. This time it was about 7.7....we thought adding ammonium sulphate would raise the ph (from one post we read on this forum), but it drops it quite a bit. We had to add a lot more ammonia to the mix than we've ever done to get the ph up to 9.0.

We do have an excellent ph meter, so no worries there, and we keep new packets of buffer on hand to make sure it's always accurate.

We're also running this time at 105 F (we did it at 80F on past runs but understand it's supposed to be warmer than that--we may try it at 110-120F next time if needed) and we're injecting air and mixing continuously as well. We run for on hr, let settle, drain off and decided to try adding sodium sulfide to drop the metals INSTEAD of the ferrous sulfate we've used in the past.

We did a small test on some leach and added the sodium sulfide. It immediately turned gray/gold and started dropping, but we never saw the ph go down. I know it's supposed to drop VERY fast, and then the ph will shoot up. Is it possible that the ph meter just didn't have a chance to register the drop before it went up? It went from 7.7 (it had dropped ph on its own as it sat for 24 hrs) up to 8.3 after adding the sodium sulfide. We understand we're supposed to 'shock' the leach by adding the sodium sulfide so it will drop the gold, and that the ideal ph is 7 to take it to so it will drop the gold/pm's, but it never showed a drop on the ph....that's our major concern.

We're having challenges getting the ph up on our ore/leach mix without putting in ammonia, and we don't want to go overboard on the ammonia, as we know it can radically affect the leach. At this point, we're typically at around 7.3-7.6 when we mix and add our ore. We're reading more and more now showing it's best to keep the ph under 9 (as opposed to the 9.2 we were first told) and optimum is 8. If that's the case, it's going to take far less ammonia to raise it. Also, we're not certain how much (% wise) copper sulfate to use, as we know that can skew the leach as well, if not correct. We've read the patent and tried to follow that, but it's not super clear on the ratios.

I'll attach a picture later this afternoon when I have my phone.


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## Dr. Poe

Sorry to give you the news, but something else is dropping your gold. Ferrous sulfate, SO2, SMB, stannous chloride will not drop gold from thiosulfates. The sure method is cementation with steel wool, firing the wool to burn off the sulfur family and take your pick of methods from there. Ferrous sulfate added to sodium aurous thiosulfate precipitates ferrous sulfate or ferrous oxide hydrate. Any gold present was brought down by 'occlusion'. Use the steel wool. You'll be happy with the results.
I am Dr. Poe, PHD Geochemical Research.(32 years as a refiner of refractory ores)


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## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Sorry to give you the news, but something else is dropping your gold. Ferrous sulfate, SO2, SMB, stannous chloride will not drop gold from thiosulfates. The sure method is cementation with steel wool, firing the wool to burn off the sulfur family and take your pick of methods from there. Ferrous sulfate added to sodium aurous thiosulfate precipitates ferrous sulfate or ferrous oxide hydrate. Any gold present was brought down by 'occlusion'. Use the steel wool. You'll be happy with the results.
> I am Dr. Poe, PHD Geochemical Research.(32 years as a refiner of refractory ores)



Sounds good to me. Can you be more specific in how I use it? When we're done leaching, draining and filter, do we just drop a piece of steel wool in and let it sit? How many pieces per gallon of leach? How long do we leave it? Is ph a factor? We've been told by one person to get the ph up to 9.2, and another said only up to 8.... taking it to 9.2 requires adding a lot of ammonia, and I think we're defeating ourselves that way. 

I'd love some step by step directions on the use of the steel wool if you don't mind? When you say firing the wool, how long/how hot? What form will the gold be in at that point? Thank you so much for your help!


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## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Ferrous sulfate, SO2, SMB, stannous chloride will not drop gold from thiosulfates. Ferrous sulfate added to sodium aurous thiosulfate precipitates ferrous sulfate or ferrous oxide hydrate.



Another quick question besides the ones I asked about using the steel wool....in my previous post I stated we'd switched from Ferrous Sulfate to Sodium Sulfide. Are you also saying that sodium Sulfide won't drop gold from sodium thiosulfate leach? That's what they used in the testing done for the thiosulfate patent.

Also, I'm still learning, but I'm not sure what S02 or SMB stands for?

Thank you!


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## Dr. Poe

Ferrell said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ferrous sulfate, SO2, SMB, stannous chloride will not drop gold from thiosulfates. Ferrous sulfate added to sodium aurous thiosulfate precipitates ferrous sulfate or ferrous oxide hydrate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another quick question besides the ones I asked about using the steel wool....in my previous post I stated we'd switched from Ferrous Sulfate to Sodium Sulfide. Are you also saying that sodium Sulfide won't drop gold from sodium thiosulfate leach? That's what they used in the testing done for the thiosulfate patent.
> 
> Also, I'm still learning, but I'm not sure what S02 or SMB stands for?
> 
> Thank you!
Click to expand...

SO2 stands for sulfur dioxide gas. SMB stands for sodium meta bi-sulfate powder (which releases SO2 in situ (in the reaction).
Sodium sulfide or yellow sodium poly-sulfide. Yellow sodium poly-sulfide is used to dissolve sulfides of metals including gold sulfide (Au2S) . If in the patent, sodium sulfide was used to precipitate gold sulfide, they first acidified the solution to pH3 with Sulfuric acid or with hydrochloric acid.

Concerning the steel wool, don't change the pH. Leave it where it is coming out of the ore. Use 'fine' and I like to use the whole package of 12. I like to give the soak at least one hour, over night is advised. After drying, the steel wool will ignite with a match, but use a propane torch. Smelt the residue with soda ash, borax and a litharge or bismuth trioxide oxidizer/collector. Cupel the prill. Dr. Poe
In addition Doctors of any kind never totally agree on any subject. If we could destroy thiosulfates by simple lowing the pH
to strongly acidic, we would gladly do so, but all that ever happens is a little bit of sulfur is released. The sodium part is just because it's on the alkaline side of seven. Iron, copper, platinum, gold, take your pick of elements make up the rest of a 'thiosulfate' (more correctly call a 'thionate' and can exist at all pH's. Usually the presence of thiosulfates is because someone messed up and didn't roast the ore properly. Using it on purpose is to take advantage of the extreme stability of the gold ionic compound with sulfur (which is more stable than gold cyanides). In South Africa, the leaches take advantage of the duo action of yellow sodium poly-sulfide in combination with sodium or potassium cyanide (actually they use calcium cyanamide which converts to the cyanide by sodium hydroxide) and they use it in a 'carbon-in-pulp' method. They want and get the gold adsorption onto the carbon particles which are leached with hot caustic soda and electrically deposited on steel wool via 4 volts DC. They don't like thiosulfates because thiosulfates ignore the carbon (but not the steel wool).


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## Ferrell

> Concerning the steel wool, don't change the pH. Leave it where it is coming out of the ore. Use 'fine' and I like to use the whole package of 12. I like to give the soak at least one hour, over night is advised. After drying, the steel wool will ignite with a match, but use a propane torch. Smelt the residue with soda ash, borax and a litharge or bismuth trioxide oxidizer/collector. Cupel the prill. Dr. Po.



Thank you for all this great information, I'm trying to absorb it and will pass it along to my husband when he gets home in an hr or so. One more quick question....there's been some difference of opinion on what to raise the ph level to when making the thiosulfate leach, and whether to use copper sulfate or not. When we mix the sodium thiosulfate with the ammonium sulfate, we were told to use a very small amt of copper sulfate, as well. Those three put the ph at about 7.5 after we add the ore. Some people on this forum have said the ph needs to be between 9 and 9.2, others have said no more than 8. I believe I remember the patent stating 8 as well. Do you have a recommendation on that? It takes a lot of ammonia to get it up to 9 & above.

We've been using tap water as we're in the country and have a well, so no chlorine, but we're wondering if that's not a good idea and if we should be using distilled? Our well water ph is about 6 or a little higher, but not as high as 7. 

We so appreciate all your advice and help and we're exited to try the steel wool. I'm sure we'll be back with more questions, but if we can be as accurate as possible on the leach mix and ph to start with, that will be a huge help.


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## Ferrell

Dr. Poe (or anyone interested)--

We did a test run yesterday on the sodium thiosulfate and the steel wool. Here's what we did. 

We took 2 1/2 lbs of our ore (heavily laced with blue clay and black sand), crushed down to 200-250 mesh and mixed up the sodium thiosulfate and ammonium sulfate, leaving out the copper sulfate this time. Per the instructions on the patent to add any form of alcohol to keep preg robbing from happening, we added two capfuls of rubbing alcohol, as well. Our ph was 7, so we added enough ammonia to bring it up to 8.2 (several squirts from a wash bottle). We put our mixer in it and infused air for 2 hrs, then let settle about 4 hrs, and ran the recovered leach through a filter, gathering aprox 2 gal of clean leach.

Last night we took 6 pieces of steel wool, unrolled them and immersed in the bucket of recovered leach....stacked on top of each other it came close to the top of the fluid (this was 1/2 of a package with a cost of $1.50....the full pkg was $3). 

This morning we took the steel wool out and placed it in a large glass bowl and we're allowing it to dry. We can already see pockets of gold in spots on the steel wool. We cut a small piece off and placed under a microscope and it's amazing. The strands are completely coated with gold in that pocket. 

Now for the questions:
Did we need to use that much steel wool, since each piece isn't totally coated? If we only used half that many pieces, should we pull them apart a bit more to fluff them and give more surface area and stir occasionally? We're putting another piece in this morning just to see if it will capture more, but we're guessing it won't. We're looking at the cost factor vs the amt of acquired gold. Not only the steel wool, but the cost of the propane from a torch. We took a piece of steel wool we cut off last night (fresh), put it on a pan and hit it with the torch off and on for over 5 min., and it only disintegrated by about 1/2. At that rate it's going to take a lot of propane to burn up 6 full pieces to release the gold. I'm guessing you may have suggested using the steel wool only for testing purposes, not for larger recovery efforts? 

Any suggestions on that?

Finally, we also have used butyl diglyme for recovering gold from SSN and it works well, but we want to get away from using nitric. According to the thiosulfate patent, you can use solvents for recovery. Do you know or have you tried using butyl diglyme as a recovery method for thiosulfate leach? If so, do you know if you'd follow the same 'rules' as you would for recovery as you do with SSN?

Thank you for any additional information you can give us and please keep it as simple as possible. We neither one have a chemistry background so simple is good.


----------



## Dr. Poe

Ferrell said:


> Dr. Poe (or anyone interested)--
> 
> We did a test run yesterday on the sodium thiosulfate and the steel wool. Here's what we did.
> 
> We took 2 1/2 lbs of our ore (heavily laced with blue clay and black sand), crushed down to 200-250 mesh and mixed up the sodium thiosulfate and ammonium sulfate, leaving out the copper sulfate this time. Per the instructions on the patent to add any form of alcohol to keep preg robbing from happening, we added two capfuls of rubbing alcohol, as well. Our ph was 7, so we added enough ammonia to bring it up to 8.2 (several squirts from a wash bottle). We put our mixer in it and infused air for 2 hrs, then let settle about 4 hrs, and ran the recovered leach through a filter, gathering aprox 2 gal of clean leach.
> 
> Last night we took 6 pieces of steel wool, unrolled them and immersed in the bucket of recovered leach....stacked on top of each other it came close to the top of the fluid (this was 1/2 of a package with a cost of $1.50....the full pkg was $3).
> 
> This morning we took the steel wool out and placed it in a large glass bowl and we're allowing it to dry. We can already see pockets of gold in spots on the steel wool. We cut a small piece off and placed under a microscope and it's amazing. The strands are completely coated with gold in that pocket.
> 
> Now for the questions:
> Did we need to use that much steel wool, since each piece isn't totally coated? If we only used half that many pieces, should we pull them apart a bit more to fluff them and give more surface area and stir occasionally? We're putting another piece in this morning just to see if it will capture more, but we're guessing it won't. We're looking at the cost factor vs the amt of acquired gold. Not only the steel wool, but the cost of the propane from a torch. We took a piece of steel wool we cut off last night (fresh), put it on a pan and hit it with the torch off and on for over 5 min., and it only disintegrated by about 1/2. At that rate it's going to take a lot of propane to burn up 6 full pieces to release the gold. I'm guessing you may have suggested using the steel wool only for testing purposes, not for larger recovery efforts?
> 
> Any suggestions on that?
> 
> Finally, we also have used butyl diglyme for recovering gold from SSN and it works well, but we want to get away from using nitric. According to the thiosulfate patent, you can use solvents for recovery. Do you know or have you tried using butyl diglyme as a recovery method for thiosulfate leach? If so, do you know if you'd follow the same 'rules' as you would for recovery as you do with SSN?
> 
> Thank you for any additional information you can give us and please keep it as simple as possible. We neither one have a chemistry background so simple is good.



In 32 years I've not found any short cut around using the steel wool for recovering gold from a thiosulfate leach. Some methods worked a little, but none had a 100% yield as does the steel wool method. You have to judge for yourself how much steel wool to use. It's the recovered gold that will tell you how much to use. It's better when first using this method to err on the side of too much iron wool rather than too little. On your next batch, try using less. If the gold recovery suffers loss, go back and add some more. Do this until you can afford to waste steel wool and have enough data to do some math.
If you decide to use acid to remove some of the steel wool, be sure to burn it thoroughly prior to using any acid.
My preference is not to use acid, but to smelt with fluxes that eat iron like silica and borax. The soda ash is to make a glass of the silica/iron oxide. The slag will be yellow or green depending upon an oxidizing flame or a reducing flame.
A collector of bismuth trioxide (and some iron nails) pools the gold and can be oxidized away by cupellation or a second melt in the furnace under oxidizing conditions with a bone ash or magnesite powder to absorb the bismuth oxide.
I am getting into a bad habit of making run-on sentences. :lol: Dr. Poe


----------



## butcher

Dr. Poe thanks for making that very understandable, it seems like your posts are getting more understandable for me to read.

I have also noticed that sometimes you discuss (similar to two) different thoughts in one sentence, in one paragraph, one (sentence or thought) after the other, only separated by the period, (between) in the two sentences (or thoughts), this confused me in some of your older posts, as I would read it as one thought, I noticed when I separated the sentences, that you were talking about two different things, and I could then understand it much better. Does this make sense?


Ferrell, I am so glad your starting to see the gold, and that your hard work is starting to show color.


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> If you decide to use acid to remove some of the steel wool, be sure to burn it thoroughly prior to using any acid.
> My preference is not to use acid, but to smelt with fluxes that eat iron like silica and borax. The soda ash is to make a glass of the silica/iron oxide. The slag will be yellow or green depending upon an oxidizing flame or a reducing flame.
> A collector of bismuth trioxide (and some iron nails) pools the gold and can be oxidized away by cupellation or a second melt in the furnace under oxidizing conditions with a bone ash or magnesite powder to absorb the bismuth oxide.
> I am getting into a bad habit of making run-on sentences. :lol: Dr. Poe



Just so I'm clear....are you saying (this is what we assumed from your first post about using a propane torch) that we should try to burn the steel wool first, THEN smelt with fluxes that eat iron? Or are you saying that after the steel wool dries, to go straight to the smelt phase using flux? 

We haven't smelted before and while we are somewhat familiar with fluxes, I'd like to be sure....Can you give me specifically, step-by-step what you're saying as far as the use of the soda ash, bismuth, etch? 

We're doing a second test run today and we'll use 4 pieces of steel wool instead of 6 and see how it goes. There were large sections of the steel wool on the first batch that didn't have gold clinging to it.


----------



## Dr. Poe

Ferrell:... just so I'm clear....are you saying (this is what we assumed from your first post about using a propane torch) that we should try to burn the steel wool first, THEN smelt with fluxes that eat iron? Or are you saying that after the steel wool dries, to go straight to the smelt phase using flux?

The reason to burn, ignite the wool with a torch is to burn off the thiosulfate/sulfide/telluride (that might be present)
that will cause complexing of your gold either in acidic or alkaline solutions. Flux, smelting flux, is an alkaline solution of elements without water. Failure to roast the steel wool will guarantee that at least some of your gold will hang in the slag.
Failure to roast the steel wool will guarantee that at least some of your gold will not be recovered if you use acid to remove iron.
I don't recommend these things frivolously. Even though you couldn't see yellow gold on the other steel wool pads you might have noticed that some of the gray had turned 'Bluish'? Gold also sometimes appears as a rust colored powder mixed in with real rust (iron oxides). So treat the entire reagent (steel wool pads) as if were gold. Next time use less steel wool, but give it a longer soak time. 
Let's get more complicated for the moment: Some believe that some gold is encapsulated within iron oxides and pyrites.
The real solution is very fine grinding. Next to that; HCl (muriatic acid) with a little bleach to start. Then when the iron has partially disintegrated, neutralize with sodium hydroxide (not soda ash), bring up the pH to just under 9 (to keep iron hydroxides from forming) and then utilize the sodium thiosulfate or the ammonium thiosulfate leach.
A little copper sulfate (not a lot) helps catalyze the ammonium thiosulfate leach. With the sodium thiosulfate leach, a little bit (again, not a lot) of peroxide followed by aeration (bubbling air through the solution) helps a lot. Don't use peroxide if using the ammonium version. You'll destroy the ammonium ions. Whenever I say "a little bit", I'm talking about a teaspoon,
Not a quart. OK? Have faith! Every ore is different, but falls into a particular category. Eventually you will be able to customize the leaches for your particular ore. Then, God willing, you will prosper financially. Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> The reason to burn, ignite the wool with a torch is to burn off the thiosulfate/sulfide/telluride (that might be present)
> that will cause complexing of your gold either in acidic or alkaline solutions. Flux, smelting flux, is an alkaline solution of elements without water. Failure to roast the steel wool will guarantee that at least some of your gold will hang in the slag.
> Failure to roast the steel wool will guarantee that at least some of your gold will not be recovered if you use acid to remove iron.
> I don't recommend these things frivolously. Even though you couldn't see yellow gold on the other steel wool pads you might have noticed that some of the gray had turned 'Bluish'? Gold also sometimes appears as a rust colored powder mixed in with real rust (iron oxides). So treat the entire reagent (steel wool pads) as if were gold. Next time use less steel wool, but give it a longer soak time.
> Let's get more complicated for the moment: Some believe that some gold is encapsulated within iron oxides and pyrites.
> The real solution is very fine grinding. Next to that; HCl (muriatic acid) with a little bleach to start. Then when the iron has partially disintegrated, neutralize with sodium hydroxide (not soda ash), bring up the pH to just under 9 (to keep iron hydroxides from forming) and then utilize the sodium thiosulfate or the ammonium thiosulfate leach.
> A little copper sulfate (not a lot) helps catalyze the ammonium thiosulfate leach. With the sodium thiosulfate leach, a little bit (again, not a lot) of peroxide followed by aeration (bubbling air through the solution) helps a lot. Don't use peroxide if using the ammonium version. You'll destroy the ammonium ions. Whenever I say "a little bit", I'm talking about a teaspoon,
> Not a quart. OK? Have faith! Every ore is different, but falls into a particular category. Eventually you will be able to customize the leaches for your particular ore. Then, God willing, you will prosper financially. Dr. Poe




This is all very helpful, thank you. I'll follow up with a couple comments and questions.

Is the reason to use more steel wool that you the greater surface area and increased amt of steel wool creates a bigger 'charge', and fewer pieces will not put enough electric current into the leach to make the process (electroplating) work? We're looking at leaching 50 gal at a time, and I can't imagine trying to purchase enough pieces of steel wool to fill a container that size. We're thinking electrowinning might be the most economical way to go, but until we get enough money together to buy that equipment, we do want to continue this way.

You said the following, and this is where I want to ask specific questions....
The real solution is very fine grinding. Next to that; HCl (muriatic acid) with a little bleach to start. Then when the iron has partially disintegrated, neutralize with sodium hydroxide (not soda ash), bring up the pH to just under 9 (to keep iron hydroxides from forming) and then utilize the sodium thiosulfate or the ammonium thiosulfate leach.
A little copper sulfate (not a lot) helps catalyze the ammonium thiosulfate leach. With the sodium thiosulfate leach, a little bit (again, not a lot) of peroxide followed by aeration (bubbling air through the solution) helps a lot. Don't use peroxide if using the ammonium version. You'll destroy the ammonium ions. Whenever I say "a little bit", I'm talking about a teaspoon, Not a quart.

1. We are grinding the ore down to 200 mesh, but can take it smaller if we need to? We have a 300 mesh screen we can use to filter smaller.

2. Are you saying to start out by 'washing' the ore with a HCL and a little bleach? Let's say we're going to process 4 lbs of ore and use 3 gal of leach. Are you suggesting doing what? soaking with HCL? How much? Any water? You aren't saying straight HCL and bleach? 

3. You say 'then when the iron has partially disintegrated'....how do we know that's happened? How long? 

4. You say 'bring up the ph to just under 9'....using ammonia? Or something else? 

5. "Then utilize the sodium thiosulfate'.....by itself? We've been adding ammonium sulfate at the ratio of 3 to 1 with the sodium thiosulfate. Are you suggesting not adding the ammonium sulfate, or when you say 'the ammonium version' are you meaning sodium thiosulfate with the ammonium sulfate added?

6. "Whenever I say a little I'm talking about a teaspoon'.....per gallon, per 5 gal, per??? I know you wouldn't want to add a teaspoon of copper sulfate for the leach mix for a gal of leach, as that would be way too much. Can you tell I like specific, exact measurements, LOL! We really don't want to do 50 batches working in the dark trying to figure out the right mix, if there's someone out there who knows what's right. 

Yes, we've been doing the aeration, but we only have one speed on our air control pressure and it's bubbling pretty heavily. That's a problem?

And the final question (forgive me that this is so long!) in an older post you mentioned that the only way you can drop gold with sodium sulfide in a thiosulfate leach is by dropping the ph value to 3 first using hcl, then adding the sodium sulfide. We did that last night and only got a few grains of something that looks like steel. This was in new leach that didn't have any steel wool in it. 

I'm posting a picture (magnified) of some strands of steel wool after soaking overnight in the thio leach we mixed three days ago.


----------



## qst42know

You might try buying your steel wool in bulk. I can't say if this is the best price available but 20 lb. at a time is likely better than by the pack.

http://stores.sobodistribution.com/Categories.bok?category=Carbon+Steel+Wool%3ABulk+Reels%3A20+lbs+Bulk+Reels


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## Ferrell

qst42know said:


> You might try buying your steel wool in bulk. I can't say if this is the best price available but 20 lb. at a time is likely better than by the pack.
> 
> http://stores.sobodistribution.com/Categories.bok?category=Carbon+Steel+Wool%3ABulk+Reels%3A20+lbs+Bulk+Reels




Thanks so much, I'll look into that!


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## qst42know

Their 50 pound bags of chopped steel wool looks to be the best price.

http://stores.sobodistribution.com/Categories.bok?category=Chopped+Steel+Wool

How much leaching are you planning?


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## rusty

Ferrell said:


> qst42know said:
> 
> 
> 
> You might try buying your steel wool in bulk. I can't say if this is the best price available but 20 lb. at a time is likely better than by the pack.
> 
> http://stores.sobodistribution.com/Categories.bok?category=Carbon+Steel+Wool%3ABulk+Reels%3A20+lbs+Bulk+Reels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks so much, I'll look into that!
Click to expand...


At those prices for steel wool I would be inclined to salvage swarf aka lathe turnings from a local machine shop. Better yet buy a small benchtop lathe and make your own.

Just be ware that lathe turnings are sharp and they can make some nasty cuts into human skin. If you sharpen your cutting tool to have a chip breaker your turnings will break off into manageable short pieces.


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## Dr. Poe

Thank you Mrs. Ferrell ! Everyone has been wanting to see the gold on steel wool, but I had no working digital camera.
The camera that I had lost the pictures (loose battery connections?) This is a wonderful picture!
To answer your questions: A teaspoon to fifty gallons sounds right on. I think 200 mesh is excellent. Forget about the HCl.
It looks to me that you have already got the understanding of this system. I don't know your assay results with thiosulfates.
If you can afford the extra time, you could just use one pad at a time until no more gold is found on the steel wool.
[I assume that you are separating the fluid from the gang prior to cementation on the steel wool. Is this correct? Or are you trying to do both simultaneously (not recommended)]. Since you are using both methods of ammonium and the sodium thiosulfates at the same leach, skip the hydrogen peroxide, but keep the bubbling. you've got this Mrs. Ferrell. You just need to fine tune it to maximize it. Since all ores fall into categories, yet each is an individual, only careful experimentation will help you progress. Congratulations, and thanx again for the pic. Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Thank you Mrs. Ferrell ! Everyone has been wanting to see the gold on steel wool, but I had no working digital camera.
> The camera that I had lost the pictures (loose battery connections?) This is a wonderful picture!
> To answer your questions: A teaspoon to fifty gallons sounds right on. I think 200 mesh is excellent. Forget about the HCl.
> It looks to me that you have already got the understanding of this system. I don't know your assay results with thiosulfates.
> If you can afford the extra time, you could just use one pad at a time until no more gold is found on the steel wool.
> [I assume that you are separating the fluid from the gang prior to cementation on the steel wool. Is this correct? Or are you trying to do both simultaneously (not recommended)]. Since you are using both methods of ammonium and the sodium thiosulfates at the same leach, skip the hydrogen peroxide, but keep the bubbling. you've got this Mrs. Ferrell. You just need to fine tune it to maximize it. Since all ores fall into categories, yet each is an individual, only careful experimentation will help you progress. Congratulations, and thanx again for the pic. Dr. Poe



You're welcome, glad I could help by posting a picture. 

We haven't had an assay on the results of the thiosulfate, but did have lab tests run on our ore a year ago after using nitric and saturated salt, then recovering using butyl diglyme and oxalic acid. They did two separate 3 lb samples. The first showed 5-7 oz of gold per ton of ore the second showed 7-9 oz per ton. That was on ore that had been washed to the point it had the dirt removed, but was not taken down to black sand. I'd say it was reduced by about 25-30% from its original form after being crushed to 200 mesh. They are the ones who told us that SSN is the best leach to use for our ore, but we're wanting to get away from nitric if at all possible. 

Now for my inevitable question! My husband works at a place where he can do a lot of specialty building of various pieces of equipment. His boss and he want to know if you can tell us the dc voltage and amps required for steel wool to pull and cement the gold from thiosulfate, as well as the same for a bar of steel. If they know that, they can charge a smaller amt of steel wool and/or a steel bar, with the correct voltage and amperage, and collect the gold--basically making our own electrowinning system, per se. Any info you can give us on that would be very appreciated. 

Thank you so much for all your excellent advice. We feel like we're finally headed the right direction and making progress toward being able to recover our gold. We know we also have silver at a rate of at least 4 oz per ton, but aren't concentrating on that right now. We have yet to test for platinum groups. 

Miralee Ferrell


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## Dr. Poe

The voltage is slightly higher: 4VDC+ to 6VDC+. 
The gold most likely will appear as a brown rust colored deposit instead of the yellow that you get from gentle soaking.
No matter, it will still melt to yellow. The higher the amperage, the more that it will 'burn' into the iron/steel.
Stay under six amps per decimeter (~ 4" by 4 ") " meaning inches. Also only count the side facing the cathode.

When you can find one and can afford it, purchase a "Refractometer".
The intensity of the 'Line' will tell you when the solution is at maximum concentration. It's a small device held in hand with a drop of solution. The light is refracted to a point and the intensity thickens or brightens the line. It comes with instructions.
When you get rich, purchase a mass spectrometer. Hand held must be programed for the metals that you seek. A hand held mass spectrometer cost $60,000 in 2010. The lab version can be bought second hand for around $120,000. Flame spectrometer's can be purchased for under $1,000. I used to have an electron microscope (back in the 80"s). Now days it's the tunneling microscope that makes it possible to write your name with protons. I get by with two microscopes. Both are considered toys. One has 1200 power and is conventional. The other is a 200 power that works by a hand held micro-television camera that puts the picture in color on my HD color TV screen. Each cost $20 at Toys-R-US. LOL :lol: 
SSN leaches have problems with natural ores when using Butyl Di-Glyme (no problem with scrap). Because of the siliceous material that co-precipitates, it's recommended that the drop be made first with zinc chips. The products are then re-worked and then the butyl di-glyme/oxalic acid methods work fine. No wonder SSN has lost it's appeal for most refiners.
Also SSN needs to be heated to 80 C and takes twice as long to work for each 10C drop in temperature. 
On the positive side pro-SSN, it can dissolve gold minerals that are insoluble in aqua regia or in alkali cyanides.
To be the most efficient, the average developed gold miner/refiner uses a battery of processes, one after another.
Usually starting with classification, grinding, gravity separation/concentration, then the 'tailings' are leached by processes that can be in 'tanderm'. For instance: NaSx sodium poly sulfide (which dissolves gold sulfides) can be followed by sodium thiosulfate. What you are doing is OK for now. Eventually your process will 'evolve' to a more complete recovery. Seldom will one process leach get it all (speaking only of ores). Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> The voltage is slightly higher: 4VDC+ to 6VDC+.
> The gold most likely will appear as a brown rust colored deposit instead of the yellow that you get from gentle soaking.
> No matter, it will still melt to yellow. The higher the amperage, the more that it will 'burn' into the iron/steel.
> Stay under six amps per decimeter (~ 4" by 4 ") " meaning inches. Also only count the side facing the cathode.
> 
> Dr. Poe



So is this voltage and amperage you're siting for the steel wool or for a steel bar? Will it matter the size of the bar? Allen is wondering what the volts and amps are for the larger mass of steel wool....that they create when they're in the leach. He was thinking of trying to recreated that effect, but only using a small amt of steel wool, using equipment instead, and drawing the gold onto a small amt of steel wool, if that makes sense? Or of course, doing the same thing with a steel bar. 

All of this is so helpful, thank you!


----------



## Dr. Poe

Ferrell said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> The voltage is slightly higher: 4VDC+ to 6VDC+.
> The gold most likely will appear as a brown rust colored deposit instead of the yellow that you get from gentle soaking.
> No matter, it will still melt to yellow. The higher the amperage, the more that it will 'burn' into the iron/steel.
> Stay under six amps per decimeter (~ 4" by 4 ") " meaning inches. Also only count the side facing the cathode.
> 
> Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So is this voltage and amperage you're siting for the steel wool or for a steel bar? Will it matter the size of the bar? Allen is wondering what the volts and amps are for the larger mass of steel wool....that they create when they're in the leach. He was thinking of trying to recreated that effect, but only using a small amt of steel wool, using equipment instead, and drawing the gold onto a small amt of steel wool, if that makes sense? Or of course, doing the same thing with a steel bar.
> 
> All of this is so helpful, thank you!
Click to expand...


Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
> Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
> Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe




I did some checking on the internet and it looks like a 12" x 12" bar of titanium 1" thick, grade 2, is about $1100., more than we have to spare at the moment. For now, can a steel bar work till we're able to recover some gold and buy more expensive equipment? We're trying to get started and have already put out as much as we can until we get something coming back in.


----------



## rusty

Ferrell said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
> Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
> Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did some checking on the internet and it looks like a 12" x 12" bar of titanium 1" thick, grade 2, is about $1100., more than we have to spare at the moment. For now, can a steel bar work till we're able to recover some gold and buy more expensive equipment? We're trying to get started and have already put out as much as we can until we get something coming back in.
Click to expand...


What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.

After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.

You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6

I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.


----------



## Ferrell

rusty said:


> What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.
> 
> After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.
> 
> You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6
> 
> I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.




Super, thanks so much for that link. I just went and looked and there's a lot of different thicknesses, so I'll pass this along to my husband when he gets home. I assume you only flame treat the first time before you use it, and don't need to again?

You said to wash the titanium cathode....how long do we let it remain in the solution before it's collected all the gold? And wash with distilled water, or something else? Then smelt the gold?

We know we also have silver. Can this same process be used, but with different voltage/amps? Thiosulphate does put silver into solution, right? Or is it easier to just drop it with zinc or something else? But I assume if we did that first, it would mess things up for the gold extraction. So maybe better to just let the silver go unless we can do it the same way as the gold?

Are you tired of me yet? :roll: You've been so patient and helpful.


----------



## rusty

Ferrell said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.
> 
> After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.
> 
> You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6
> 
> I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Super, thanks so much for that link. I just went and looked and there's a lot of different thicknesses, so I'll pass this along to my husband when he gets home. I assume you only flame treat the first time before you use it, and don't need to again?
> 
> You said to wash the titanium cathode....how long do we let it remain in the solution before it's collected all the gold? And wash with distilled water, or something else? Then smelt the gold?
> 
> We know we also have silver. Can this same process be used, but with different voltage/amps? Thiosulphate does put silver into solution, right? Or is it easier to just drop it with zinc or something else? But I assume if we did that first, it would mess things up for the gold extraction. So maybe better to just let the silver go unless we can do it the same way as the gold?
> 
> Are you tired of me yet? :roll: You've been so patient and helpful.
Click to expand...


Dr. Poe will be along shortly to clarify, I'm just a student sitting near the back of the room, with a few questions of my own but will not derail your thread by interrupting.

Electromotive series of metals zinc is above silver gold and the platinum group so it will cement metals out of solution below it, stripping your mother liquor of values.


----------



## Dr. Poe

Ferrell said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
> Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
> Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did some checking on the internet and it looks like a 12" x 12" bar of titanium 1" thick, grade 2, is about $1100., more than we have to spare at the moment. For now, can a steel bar work till we're able to recover some gold and buy more expensive equipment? We're trying to get started and have already put out as much as we can until we get something coming back in.
Click to expand...


How about a 12" by 12" titanium plate 1/32 of an inch thick? If you must use steel with a rectifier, then use cheap steel plate and wash off the zinc with hot caustic. Better, just find a flexible steel plate, If you can't flex it by hand, it's too thick.
Steel is insoluble in alkali except at smelting temperatures and in watered alkali under low voltage.
You are going to have to re-add the copper sulfate when using electricity. It will plate copper on the other electrode (the cathode Negative side) If the gold doesn't flake off the anode (when you flex it and it's thick enough (gold)), then the voltage was too high. It burned into the steel metal. Don't fret if one side of the gold flakes are blue, the iron will flux off in the furnace. Dr. Poe P.S. Don't lower the steel into the solution until the voltage is on, else copper will plate on the steel
making the gold stick too hardily.


----------



## Dr. Poe

rusty said:


> Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.
> 
> After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.
> 
> You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6
> 
> I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Super, thanks so much for that link. I just went and looked and there's a lot of different thicknesses, so I'll pass this along to my husband when he gets home. I assume you only flame treat the first time before you use it, and don't need to again?
> 
> You said to wash the titanium cathode....how long do we let it remain in the solution before it's collected all the gold? And wash with distilled water, or something else? Then smelt the gold?
> 
> We know we also have silver. Can this same process be used, but with different voltage/amps? Thiosulphate does put silver into solution, right? Or is it easier to just drop it with zinc or something else? But I assume if we did that first, it would mess things up for the gold extraction. So maybe better to just let the silver go unless we can do it the same way as the gold?
> 
> Are you tired of me yet? :roll: You've been so patient and helpful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe will be along shortly to clarify, I'm just a student sitting near the back of the room, with a few questions of my own but will not derail your thread by interrupting.
> 
> Electromotive series of metals zinc is above silver gold and the platinum group so it will cement metals out of solution below it, stripping your mother liquor of values.
Click to expand...

Remember that the precious metals are on the other side, the positive side. There are two ways to look at up and down electromotive series. Gold is below zinc metal in reactivity or the ability to corrode.
Gold is above zinc in nobility, the ability to resist corrosion.
Simple compounds of gold plate on the negative side of the cell. Complex compounds of gold plate on the positive side of the cell. Most gold in solution will plate on the positive side. Pure gold chloride (no acid) (Au2Cl6) plates on the negative side. Add a little HCl and the sides reverse, to the positive side. Confused Yet? Baffled me for years (30 years ago)
Au2Cl6 is called gold chloride. HAuCl4 is called gold acid chloride. Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

rusty said:


> Dr. Poe will be along shortly to clarify, I'm just a student sitting near the back of the room, with a few questions of my own but will not derail your thread by interrupting.
> 
> Electromotive series of metals zinc is above silver gold and the platinum group so it will cement metals out of solution below it, stripping your mother liquor of values.



Thanks so much, Rusty. And I apologize for not realizing that earlier suggestion about the thin titanium and the ebay link were from you, not Dr. Poe. Both of you have been very helpful.


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
> Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
> Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about a 12" by 12" titanium plate 1/32 of an inch thick? If you must use steel with a rectifier, then use cheap steel plate and wash off the zinc with hot caustic. Better, just find a flexible steel plate, If you can't flex it by hand, it's too thick.
> Steel is insoluble in alkali except at smelting temperatures and in watered alkali under low voltage.
> You are going to have to re-add the copper sulfate when using electricity. It will plate copper on the other electrode (the cathode Negative side) If the gold doesn't flake off the anode (when you flex it and it's thick enough (gold)), then the voltage was too high. It burned into the steel metal. Don't fret if one side of the gold flakes are blue, the iron will flux off in the furnace. Dr. Poe P.S. Don't lower the steel into the solution until the voltage is on, else copper will plate on the steel
> making the gold stick too hardily.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



I called my husband during his lunch break and his boss (who has a warehouse of 'stuff' he's purchased at auctions) has some thin (flexible) titanium sheets we can have, so I think we're set. They're going to work on putting a system together per your instructions on Fri or Sat., we hope. I'm printing out all your directions and keeping in a file for reference. I'm sure we'll be back asking more questions before we're done (or after he catches up and reads the new ones from today), but you've given us an excellent start. Thank you!!


----------



## Dr. Poe

When your needs are fulfilled, pass this knowledge on to others. Better still, improve on it and also pass it on. When your tax bracket goes up. Remember that I don't charge to help, I do accept gratuities, so does the forum. Noxx has to pay expenses to keep this site going. My personal contact is: [email protected] Noxx has a site for donations to help keep the forum alive. Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> When your needs are fulfilled, pass this knowledge on to others. Better still, improve on it and also pass it on. When your tax bracket goes up. Remember that I don't charge to help, I do accept gratuities, so does the forum. Noxx has to pay expenses to keep this site going. My personal contact is: [email protected] Noxx has a site for donations to help keep the forum alive. Dr. Poe



We'll definitely keep that in mind when we start making some 'real' money. We like to pay it forward whenever we can, as well as appropriately thanking those who have helped, or passing along that help to others. 

One more quick question....is there a set amount of time the titanium plate should stay in the leach solution? How do we know when it's collected all it will collect?


----------



## rusty

Ferrell said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> When your needs are fulfilled, pass this knowledge on to others. Better still, improve on it and also pass it on. When your tax bracket goes up. Remember that I don't charge to help, I do accept gratuities, so does the forum. Noxx has to pay expenses to keep this site going. My personal contact is: [email protected] Noxx has a site for donations to help keep the forum alive. Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We'll definitely keep that in mind when we start making some 'real' money. We like to pay it forward whenever we can, as well as appropriately thanking those who have helped, or passing along that help to others.
> 
> One more quick question....is there a set amount of time the titanium plate should stay in the leach solution? How do we know when it's collected all it will collect?
Click to expand...



I think this is where the refractometer becomes of importance. 

Of the three Brix scales which is recommended for metallurgy 0-42 / 42-71 / 72-92

This refractometer $66.40 listed on ebay covers the from 0- 90 of the Brix scale. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Re...9?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item5d3044c229

This site has a list of the refractive index http://refractiveindex.info/?group=METALS&material=Gold

Gold: Because of its resistance to oxidation gold can be used as an optical standard or reference material in a series of spectroscopic measurements.
http://www.filmetrics.com/refractive-index-database/Au/Gold


----------



## goldaa

How much gold are you getting out of one steel wool pad? Have some that are coated pretty good havent burned them down just cureous.


----------



## Ferrell

rusty said:


> I think this is where the refractometer becomes of importance.
> 
> Of the three Brix scales which is recommended for metallurgy 0-42 / 42-71 / 72-92
> 
> This refractometer $66.40 listed on ebay covers the from 0- 90 of the Brix scale.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Re...9?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item5d3044c229
> 
> This site has a list of the refractive index http://refractiveindex.info/?group=METALS&material=Gold
> 
> Gold: Because of its resistance to oxidation gold can be used as an optical standard or reference material in a series of spectroscopic measurements.
> http://www.filmetrics.com/refractive-index-database/Au/Gold




Rusty, everything you said here sailed right over my head, LOL! I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you dumb it down a bit for someone who isn't familiar? Maybe pretend you're talking to a 10 yr old? I'd love to learn, but need to start out a bit simpler.


----------



## Ferrell

goldaa said:


> How much gold are you getting out of one steel wool pad? Have some that are coated pretty good havent burned them down just cureous.



Honestly, we don't know yet. We've only done it twice. We've hit the steel wool with a propane torch to burn off all the chemicals, but the wool doesn't really burn very well. We don't have a smelting furnace yet (we hope to purchase one soon) so we're just storing the wool until we can finalize processing it. Right now we're working on setting up an electrowinning system with a titanium plate the way Dr. Poe suggested, as we can't see continuing with the steel wool long term. We have a 110 gal cone-bottom tank we want to use so we can do more than a small, 3 gal batch. Using steel wool for something that large isn't economical and it would be hard to gauge how much we'd need. 

I'll let you all know how the experiment goes with the titanium plate after we're done and have tried it.


----------



## Dr. Poe

Ferrell said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> When your needs are fulfilled, pass this knowledge on to others. Better still, improve on it and also pass it on. When your tax bracket goes up. Remember that I don't charge to help, I do accept gratuities, so does the forum. Noxx has to pay expenses to keep this site going. My personal contact is: [email protected] Noxx has a site for donations to help keep the forum alive. Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We'll definitely keep that in mind when we start making some 'real' money. We like to pay it forward whenever we can, as well as appropriately thanking those who have helped, or passing along that help to others.
> 
> One more quick question....is there a set amount of time the titanium plate should stay in the leach solution? How do we know when it's collected all it will collect?
Click to expand...

Before I answer, I advise that you heat treat the titanium prior to it's use. Use a flame and allow the titanium to cement nitrogen from the air to form TiN. This is the way that you get the anode ready. It's not soluble in acids or alkalies, but only in a very hot aqua regia plus hydrofluoric acid (3 acid system). It's ready when it turns bronze yellow. Get a refractometer. Also hang your anode from a scale. watch the weight go up, watch when it stops or at least slows down to almost nothing. Make sense? Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Before I answer, I advise that you heat treat the titanium prior to it's use. Use a flame and allow the titanium to cement nitrogen from the air to form TiN. This is the way that you get the anode ready. It's not soluble in acids or alkalies, but only in a very hot aqua regia plus hydrofluoric acid (3 acid system). It's ready when it turns bronze yellow. Get a refractometer. Also hang your anode from a scale. watch the weight go up, watch when it stops or at least slows down to almost nothing. Make sense? Dr. Poe




Yes, Allen plans to heat treat it as you suggested, no problem. We'll be using it in the thiosulfate leach (although we'd love to know if it would work in the SSN, as well?). 

So you're saying it's ready to take out of the leach when the titanium turns bronze/yellow? 

I'm not clear what you're saying about hanging it from a scale to watch it go up, then down. Why? What are we watching for? That's the part that didn't make sense. 

In an earlier post you mentioned a rectifier, which Allen was able to pick up. We don't have a refractometer, and have no idea what/how to use one if we did, as we're not familiar with it? Are you suggesting/saying we can't or shouldn't try to extract the gold from the leach with the titanium without one? 

Just want to be clear on all points....


----------



## rusty

I'm just another Noob here, I was hoping that Dr. Poe would elaborate on the use of the refractometer and which one would be suitable for metallurgy. 

A year ago I took this picture of some IC's I had incinerated, don't have a clue why I decided to take a picture of what looked to be a pile of ash for you could not see the tiny beads with the naked eye. Only after taking the picture, the flash bounced off of the beads giving a blue to violet color almost like an aura.

Since we do not have a reference guide we are left to experimentation, since you are aware of the metals in your leach you already have a leg up.

Use the scale as Dr. Poe suggested, get an inexpensive refractometer, take a sample reading from the beginning to acquaint yourself with the refractometer. When your scale no longer registers a weight gain take another reading from your refractometer.

It is not necessary to have the refractometer, owning one simply makes your job easier to understand and identify when your pregnant leach has become barren of values.

Picture is only to show the effects of light from a camera flash. Your refractometer is more sophisticated.


----------



## Dr. Poe

Rusty's got this one. I can't advise better. Wow! Rusty, look at those blue hues! 75% gold with 25% iron? 
Or is that something else? Christmas gold bulb hues. Some times silver will flash that hue. Am I mistaking silver for 18K blue?
Chances are that any silver wouldn't be that pure, so I'm betting 18K blue (gold/iron).


----------



## jack_burton

Ferrell said:


> I'm not clear what you're saying about hanging it from a scale to watch it go up, then down. Why? What are we watching for? That's the part that didn't make sense.



From how I understood this, the weight of the titanium plate will rise as it collects the gold. So suspend it from a scale watch for it to stop getting heavier. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.


----------



## goldaa

What would you think about igniting the steel wool with a some magniesum ribbon?


----------



## Ferrell

jack_burton said:


> Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not clear what you're saying about hanging it from a scale to watch it go up, then down. Why? What are we watching for? That's the part that didn't make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From how I understood this, the weight of the titanium plate will rise as it collects the gold. So suspend it from a scale watch for it to stop getting heavier. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.
Click to expand...


Thanks. That's kind of what we ended up deciding, as well.


----------



## Wyndham

This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
http://www.reactivemetals.com/

I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.

I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
Thanks Wyndham


----------



## Ferrell

We did our first test with the steel plate. It turned out that the titanium plate Allen's boss had was too thick and not flexible, so he had to go with two, 4" x 5" flexible steel plates. He didn't have caustic (you said 'hot caustic'....did you mean caustic soda heated up, or something else?) to wash it with, so he hit both sides of both plates with a grinder then a sander to take the surface off. 

We mixed 4 gal of thiosulfate leach & 5 lbs of finely ground ore (as we did before), but this time added just over 1/16 of a teaspoon of copper sulfate. You mentioned 1 tsp per 50 gal, so this would be close for 4 gal. 

We were able to recover a little over 3 gal of leach from the ore, ran it through a 1 micron filter and got it very clean. The ph was 8.4. 

Allen connect a wire to each plate using a DC power supply with knobs to control volts and amps. It puts out 7 amps at its highest, and we had it set at 5 volts. 

He suspended the plates with fishing wire from a board across the top of a plastic 12 gal tote and put them into the leach, approx 5" apart. The ph jumped to 8.7 (we checked it about 10 min in) and within about a minute of starting the leach was bubbling and swirling along the edge of the negatively charged plate and the swirls were turning dark. I'll post pictures in order of what happened. First the positive plate started turning totally black from water level down, and the leach got a tinge of green/black, then slowly turned totally green/black. After the positive side of the plate turned black, the top edge just under the fluid started turning orange, like rust. Nothing seemed to be adhering to the negative plate at that time. It ended up having a very thin black film on it that wiped completely off.

We didn't know if we should move the leach around (stir it lightly) to get all of it in contact with the plates, so he did a couple of times. But we noticed the orange line started breaking apart and orange/gold flakes were falling into the leach and floating on top. By the time we finished and removed the plates, there were some very large patches of orange floating on top.

We left the plates in for about an hr then lifted them out. At first it looked like we'd lost all of the strip of orange, but, as you can see from the picture of the plate, after it dried it turned from black to orange on the top 1" or so, and still black below, but with an orange tinge when hit with a flashlight. 

As it was drying, little flakes of black were falling off. We caught them on a filter and I also took pics thru the microscope of what those look like close up.

Here are our concerns & questions. 

Was the distance apart of the two plates correct? We weren't sure of your instructions on the decimeter distance. Did you mean that it's one decimeter of distance per inch of plate? If that's the case, then with a 4" wide plate, would we be multiplying that by 1 decimeter? If so, we were way off on our distance. 

Do the pictures I posted look anything like what it should or did we do it all wrong? 

When we pulled the plates out it was still bubbling & swirling around the negative plate. We pulled them due to our concern over so much residue falling off the positive plate into the leach.


----------



## Ferrell

Blast! It loaded my post without letting me do the rest of the pictures. I'm probably doing something wrong, but I'll try again. These will be in order, but it's possible the uploading tool could show them reversed. You want to start viewing from the point the tank/leach is clear.

Looks like I can only do 5 at a time, so I'll put the rest in another post.


----------



## Ferrell

Here's the rest of the pics from my previous post.

Dr. Poe (or anyone who knows) I'd love input on the 10 pics I've posted, as well as the info and questions in my earlier post. We really want to do another batch of leach tomorrow and try again, but want to know what, if anything we're doing wrong....if this looks like it should or if we're way off base. 

Thank you for any help anyone can give!!

Miralee and Allen


----------



## goldaa

I would get a teracota flower pot seal the hole in the bottom with silicone then put the anode in the pot hang off the bottom to collect what drops off have done this with a soft steel rod but the titanium works better it plated some gold on to the iron rod. a filter bag works better. I bought a toster oven from the salvation army store and put two pads in it and have run it a 400 degrees for 20 minutes and its breaking down the pads, but will still have to run it with the propane torch. The one I bought has quartz tubes in it. only paid $5.00 dollars for it good deal.


----------



## Dr. Poe

Wyndham said:


> This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
> If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
> http://www.reactivemetals.com/
> 
> I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.
> 
> I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
> Thanks Wyndham


That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
Dr. Poe


----------



## Ferrell

Dr. Poe said:


> Wyndham said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
> If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
> http://www.reactivemetals.com/
> 
> I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.
> 
> I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
> Thanks Wyndham
> 
> 
> 
> That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
> Dr. Poe
Click to expand...


Dr. Poe, I'm hoping you'll have time to review the pictures and questions we posted last night in two different posts. We value your advice so much and we're not sure if we're on the right track with the test we ran or not. Thank you!!


----------



## Dr. Poe

Mrs. Ferrell, I'm sorry that I don't seem to make myself clear to you when I post. "Per decimeter" is referring to the area of the anode facing the cathode. Not the distance. When he ground the zinc off, it made the gold hard to flex off. It was no longer smooth. No matter, the amperage was too high as the gold flaked off prematurely. Using the titanium anode (heat treated yellow) and then using a scrapper to remove the gold might have been better than the steel. Getting a thin titanium anode shouldn't be that hard to find. Can anyone here on the forum help Mrs. Ferrel find a vendor of thin titanium anodes?
Until then, turn the amperage down, use a steel plate that's smooth. Remove any galvanization with hot caustic Sodium hydroxide. I've been really busy, I can't visit the forum as often now. Use the e-mail system. My wife will spot it. I won't abandon you and your husband. Anything that I tell you now is just rehashing old posts. You cannot get away from doing your own experiments. For some things, there are no answers until you find them. Not by asking others, but by experimentation.
Send me Google e-mail and I'll send you our phone number. I'm not going to post my phone number on the forum. That would indeed be foolish of me. Dr. Poe


----------



## renatomerino

Dr. Poe:
Very interesting your advice on how to apply gold ore leaching with thiosulphate.
I'm currently leaching silver ores with cyanide but I want to change that also use thiosulfate for gold.
I can report the concentration of thiosulfate solution used in tests please?.


----------



## Dr. Poe

renatomerino said:


> Dr. Poe:
> Very interesting your advice on how to apply gold ore leaching with thiosulphate.
> I'm currently leaching silver ores with cyanide but I want to change that also use thiosulfate for gold.
> I can report the concentration of thiosulfate solution used in tests please?.


As a rule of thumb (general applications) the weight of sodium (ammonium) thiosulfate is twice that of cyanide.
Have you been adding a little lead nitrate to help your cyanidization recovery?
Do you know the amount of copper found in your ore?
Please forgive my late response as I had caught a 24 hour virus and was too sick to think. Dr. Poe


----------



## goldsilverpro

Dr. Poe said:


> Wyndham said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
> If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
> http://www.reactivemetals.com/
> 
> I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.
> 
> I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
> Thanks Wyndham
> 
> 
> 
> That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
> Dr. Poe
Click to expand...


That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).


----------



## butcher

I also have been perplexed on this, and have been watching the discussion, not knowing if I am missing something or if there is some difference in these solutions from the acidic side of electrolysis, which I am more familiar with.

Usually when a metal is in solution with an acid copper and sulfuric for example (copper sulfate (the copper ions being positive plate out to the cathode), (the sulfate being negative move to the anode). 

Metal Cation Cu+ migrates to cathode
(Acid) Anions SO4- migrate to anode

This works with all solutions with electrolysis the compound splits.

I have never heard of metal plating to the anode, usually (unless the anode is inert) the anode dissolves into solution (with assistance of freed Anion), and the metal in solution plates out or reduces to metal powders at the cathode releasing the Anion. 



I was wondering if this gold thiosulfate complex was something abnormal from what I am used to (plating to anode??), or if they were calling electrodes backwards from what I would call them. 

I was thinking if I waited and kept reading the answer would surface to my question, but since GSP asked this question I also would like to understand this better.


----------



## Ferrell

My husband and I are no experts and are still learning and experimenting, but we followed Dr. Poe's directions and seem to be having results. The steel wool collected gold as shown on my pictures I posted a few days ago. We ordered titanium plates (8"x10") that will arrive Sat., so until then we've been working with one steel sheet (probably about .025 thickness, very flexible) and a copper sheet. 

Our first test we used two sheets of the steel (we didn't have the copper yet) and I posted the picture of what we pulled. You can see beads of gold under a microscope, as well as what appears to be iron, so apparently it pulled both onto the positively charged plate. There was enough to scrape it off with a scraper and get about 2/10 of an ounce, so it did build up. Very little clung to the negatively charged plate. Mostly just a light film of black residue you could wipe off with your finger.

We put the positive electrode to the steel sheet (which we've been calling the anode) and negative to the copper (cathode).

Last night he did a short burst on some of the leach we'd already used. He got a fine line of what appears to be silver on the negatively charged plate of copper and a line of gold on the positive/steel. 

He's trying it again tonight and it's bubbling, but we haven't pulled it out yet to check. We're thinking the ph has dropped too low and the leach is cold, and temp and ph might have some bearing. We're making a fresh batch of leach tomorrow and starting from scratch with the steel and copper, then on Saturday we'll do it with the titanium.

Again, this is all new to us, we're not very knowledgeable on the chemical designations or much else, just reporting what we believe has happened so far.


----------



## goldaa

I plated some to titanium on the positive a stainless on the negative, got gold on titanium and the black deposit on the stainless and is silver. Processed one steel wool pad got a bright yellow gold bead weight .5 tenths of a grain.


----------



## renatomerino

Dr.Poe:
Cyanide is having great difficulty in marketing in addition to environmental regulations.
For this reason it is more convenient to use thiosulfate if yields and costs are similar.
I have produced silver thiosulfate solutions with silver nitrate but after 1 hour of silver sulfide precipitates.
Finally I made ​​a solution with:
50 g / l of sodium thiosulphate
25 g / l of sodium metabisulfite
15 cc / l of Ammonia
This solution reaches 13gr/lt silver.
The silver is dissolved in the form of silver oxide.
The solution is very stable and does not precipitate silver sulfide.
With this solution tests carried out, electrolytic recovery.
I have not used silver chloride because chloride ions corrode the stainless steel anode 304.


----------



## Ferrell

goldaa said:


> I plated some to titanium on the positive a stainless on the negative, got gold on titanium and the black deposit on the stainless and is silver. Processed one steel wool pad got a bright yellow gold bead weight .5 tenths of a grain.



Hey, that's great to hear! We got black on our negative charged plate as well, but didn't think about it maybe being silver.

I'd love to know how you processed the steel wool pad? We put ours in our leach and it came out with a lot of pockets of gold but we haven't processed it yet. We hit it with a torch to burn off the chemicals but that's as far as we've gone. Can you post what you did? 

Thanks!


----------



## samuel-a

Ferrell said:


> I'd love to know how you processed the steel wool pad? We put ours in our leach and it came out with a lot of pockets of gold but we haven't processed it yet. We hit it with a torch to burn off the chemicals but that's as far as we've gone. Can you post what you did?
> 
> Thanks!




Ferrell, i maybe mistaken suggesting that, but i think it will work out well for you.

Put the steel wool in a solution of 10% sulfuric acid and leave on mild heat for about 24-36 hours, it will leach most of the iron.
Then proceed with Dr. Poe melting suggestion.

You might be better off trying this first with a test sample.


----------



## Dr. Poe

I myself have always plated copper and silver on the cathode and gold complex ions (as well as colloidal gold) was always decomposed upon the anode. Anything with a negative charge migrates to the positive plate.
The difference between gold chloride and acid gold chloride is the charge: Au2Cl6+ ; HAuCl4 -
Dr. Poe


----------



## Dr. Poe

goldsilverpro said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
> If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
> http://www.reactivemetals.com/
> 
> I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.
> 
> I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
> Thanks Wyndham
> 
> 
> 
> That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
> Dr. Poe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).
Click to expand...

The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe


----------



## goldaa

Processed the steel wool in a microwave kiln that I made. Its like the one at Microwave Gold kiln.com on the web. you have to only run it for 3 minutes at a time,for 4 times to burn up the wool. dont run it for more than 3 minutes or you will burn a hole in your crucable I took it out and stured use some tongs an gloves. Still had a little wool when I mixed the flux with it used litharge sand soda ash small amount of borax and added flower for the litharge then cupeled. And ware your safety glasses or face shield. I bought the microwave at a thrift store for $5 dollars then added the insulation.


----------



## goldsilverpro

Dr. Poe said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
> If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
> http://www.reactivemetals.com/
> 
> I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.
> 
> I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
> Thanks Wyndham
> 
> 
> 
> That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
> Dr. Poe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
> I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe
Click to expand...


The negative lead from the rectifier is connected to the cathode and the positive lead to the anode. In the plating industry, the cathode is always deemed negative (-) and the anode positive (+). Oxidation occurs at the anode and reduction at the cathode. There is no confusion on my end.

In commerce, the chromium metal is ALWAYS deposited on the cathode, without exception. The inert (non-dissolving) anodes are made of lead or some lead alloy. The only thing that forms on the anode is a thin layer of lead chromate.

In jewelry, rhodium is ALWAYS deposited on the negative cathode and NEVER on the anode. To prevent anodic attack by the sulfuric or phosphoric acid used to make up the rhodium plating bath, inert anodes are used - usually platinum coated Ti or Ta.

Although the gold in plating baths or such things as the Wohlwill cell is in the form of a negative complex ion, Au(CN)2-, Au(Cl4)-, the valence of Au in these complexes is still +1 or +3. To deposit as metal, this gold must pick up electrons and, thus, be reduced to metal and the only place this can happen is in a very thin layer next to the cathode. This layer is called the "cathode film." It's thickness can vary, depending on the solution, but it generally doesn't exceed .01". All cathode reactions occur within the cathode film. The cathode film must be constantly replenished with fresh complex gold ions, otherwise burning of the deposit can occur. Even though the negative complex gold ions are generally repelled by the cathode, the cathode film is well replenished by such things as a high gold concentration, heating the solution, and agitation. Whether the cathode film is properly replenished or not, NO gold metal will deposit on the anode, at least not through the electroplating reaction. 

There are NO plating baths in industry that directly deposit metals, as metals, on the anode. The deposition of metal, as metal, requires a reduction reaction, which only occurs at the cathode. It is possible for by-products formed at the anode to combine with the dissolved metal and form a non-metallic precipitate. An example of this is the decomposition of the thiosulfate to sulfide, which combines with the silver to form the insoluble silver sulfide. However, this is a precipitation reaction and not an electroplating reaction.

What is your purpose on the forum, Poe? It seems that it is to provide erroneous information, clothed in massive gobbledygook and self proclaimed authority, to confuse. Do you have some past grudge against the forum? Were you booted from the forum at some point under a different username? By any chance, was your past username Sue?


----------



## Dr. Poe

goldsilverpro said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
> If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
> http://www.reactivemetals.com/
> 
> I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.
> 
> I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
> Thanks Wyndham
> 
> 
> 
> That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
> Dr. Poe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
> I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The negative lead from the rectifier is connected to the cathode and the positive lead to the anode. In the plating industry, the cathode is always deemed negative (-) and the anode positive (+). Oxidation occurs at the anode and reduction at the cathode. There is no confusion on my end.
> 
> In commerce, the chromium metal is ALWAYS deposited on the cathode, without exception. The inert (non-dissolving) anodes are made of lead or some lead alloy. The only thing that forms on the anode is a thin layer of lead chromate.
> 
> In jewelry, rhodium is ALWAYS deposited on the negative cathode and NEVER on the anode. To prevent anodic attack by the sulfuric or phosphoric acid used to make up the rhodium plating bath, inert anodes are used - usually platinum coated Ti or Ta.
> 
> Although the gold in plating baths or such things as the Wohlwill cell is in the form of a negative complex ion, Au(CN)2-, Au(Cl4)-, the valence of Au in these complexes is still +1 or +3. To deposit as metal, this gold must pick up electrons and, thus, be reduced to metal and the only place this can happen is in a very thin layer next to the cathode. This layer is called the "cathode film." It's thickness can vary, depending on the solution, but it generally doesn't exceed .01". All cathode reactions occur within the cathode film. The cathode film must be constantly replenished with fresh complex gold ions, otherwise burning of the deposit can occur. Even though the negative complex gold ions are generally repelled by the cathode, the cathode film is well replenished by such things as a high gold concentration, heating the solution, and agitation. Whether the cathode film is properly replenished or not, NO gold metal will deposit on the anode, at least not through the electroplating reaction.
> 
> There are NO plating baths in industry that directly deposit metals, as metals, on the anode. The deposition of metal, as metal, requires a reduction reaction, which only occurs at the cathode. It is possible for by-products formed at the anode to combine with the dissolved metal and form a non-metallic precipitate. An example of this is the decomposition of the thiosulfate to sulfide, which combines with the silver to form the insoluble silver sulfide. However, this is a precipitation reaction and not an electroplating reaction.
Click to expand...


You are confusing deposition with reduction. Positive ions are reduced at the negative electrode.
Negative ions are oxidized at the Positive electrode. To deposit gold, it must be brought to the 0 valency state.
When the complex ion is in the negative state in solution, electrons must be taken away to deposit the metal.
minus 3 plus a positive 3 equals zero. minus 1 plus a positive one equals zero. You cannot 'reduce' to zero from a negative number. Not everyone in any business is given full knowledge of everything. I don't believe that you were told every little detail either. Physics and results prove my point. I don't need to explain any further. Any further discussion of this matter would be pointless. Dr. Poe


----------



## goldsilverpro

Dr. Poe said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
> If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
> http://www.reactivemetals.com/
> 
> I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.
> 
> I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
> Thanks Wyndham
> 
> 
> 
> That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
> Dr. Poe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
> I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The negative lead from the rectifier is connected to the cathode and the positive lead to the anode. In the plating industry, the cathode is always deemed negative (-) and the anode positive (+). Oxidation occurs at the anode and reduction at the cathode. There is no confusion on my end.
> 
> In commerce, the chromium metal is ALWAYS deposited on the cathode, without exception. The inert (non-dissolving) anodes are made of lead or some lead alloy. The only thing that forms on the anode is a thin layer of lead chromate.
> 
> In jewelry, rhodium is ALWAYS deposited on the negative cathode and NEVER on the anode. To prevent anodic attack by the sulfuric or phosphoric acid used to make up the rhodium plating bath, inert anodes are used - usually platinum coated Ti or Ta.
> 
> Although the gold in plating baths or such things as the Wohlwill cell is in the form of a negative complex ion, Au(CN)2-, Au(Cl4)-, the valence of Au in these complexes is still +1 or +3. To deposit as metal, this gold must pick up electrons and, thus, be reduced to metal and the only place this can happen is in a very thin layer next to the cathode. This layer is called the "cathode film." It's thickness can vary, depending on the solution, but it generally doesn't exceed .01". All cathode reactions occur within the cathode film. The cathode film must be constantly replenished with fresh complex gold ions, otherwise burning of the deposit can occur. Even though the negative complex gold ions are generally repelled by the cathode, the cathode film is well replenished by such things as a high gold concentration, heating the solution, and agitation. Whether the cathode film is properly replenished or not, NO gold metal will deposit on the anode, at least not through the electroplating reaction.
> 
> There are NO plating baths in industry that directly deposit metals, as metals, on the anode. The deposition of metal, as metal, requires a reduction reaction, which only occurs at the cathode. It is possible for by-products formed at the anode to combine with the dissolved metal and form a non-metallic precipitate. An example of this is the decomposition of the thiosulfate to sulfide, which combines with the silver to form the insoluble silver sulfide. However, this is a precipitation reaction and not an electroplating reaction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are confusing deposition with reduction. Positive ions are reduced at the negative electrode.
> Negative ions are oxidized at the Positive electrode. To deposit gold, it must be brought to the 0 valency state.
> When the complex ion is in the negative state in solution, electrons must be taken away to deposit the metal.
> minus 3 plus a positive 3 equals zero. minus 1 plus a positive one equals zero. You cannot 'reduce' to zero from a negative number. Not everyone in any business is given full knowledge of everything. I don't believe that you were told every little detail either. Physics and results prove my point. I don't need to explain any further. Any further discussion of this matter would be pointless. Dr. Poe
Click to expand...


More gobbledygook. You've used this ploy of "not everyone in any business is given full knowledge of everything" BS before. Now that you're beat, you're going to take your ball and go home. The fact remains that in NO commercial electroplating operation is the metal in question deposited directly on the anode, as metal. You were 100% WRONG about commercial chrome plating and rhodium plating. Why not admit it? If you were wrong about something as elementary as this, what else have you been wrong about?

I would suggest you bone up on Electroplating 101. I have in front of me a copy of Lowenheims, "Modern Electroplating", which is probably the definitive work on the subject. In it, it technically explains in detail the electrode reactions of many of the complex negative metal ions. Although each is somewhat different, these complex ions, themselves, are generally reduced at the cathode film though a series of steps which end up liberating the positive metal ion and provides electrons to deposit it, as metal, on the CATHODE. These reactions are complicated and are not fully understood in some cases. However, the metal, as metal, always ends up being deposited on the cathode and NEVER the anode.


----------



## butcher

Dr. Poe, it is with my regret to make the statements I have here, in this post, but I feel I should.

I am unsure of gold thiosulfate complex (Au(S2O3)2 solution's but I can see no difference in the reduction of gold from these solutions and the electrochemistry involved than with gold from an acidic condition.
The metals dissolved into solution contain metal missing an electron, and an anion with excess electrons.
In my mind the metals in solution (missing an electron) gain an electron at the cathode and are reduced back to metal.
The anion (sulfide, sulfate, chloride, Etcetera) in solution is oxidized (loses an electron).
(The metal liberated from acid), onto or at the cathode.
This anion now can move to the anode and take another electron from the metal that the anode is made of and dissolve this metal (now missing an electron into solution), unless an inert anode is used, in this case the solution is just depleted of its metals (under these voltages and conditions)
We cannot change the physics of electrochemistry; we can confuse names of electrodes, or which way we think of electrons travel.

In electronics there are two theories we can use, and depending how we learn them or use them, or you wish to look at it. You can say current moves from positive to negative (electron theory), (the old theory which I use), or you can use the Hole theory. That holes move negative to positive, (new theory some others use), these are just two ways to look at the same thing, which can get very confusing when someone is studying electronics, as different people or authors will use one of these two different theories, and the reader must know both theory's to be able to understand what is being discussed, use of neither of these theories is wrong to use, as they both are just two ways to look at the same thing (electrons only move one direction), this has a lot to do with how one man or other will read electronic schematics and follow them while troubleshooting or understanding how a circuit works, as long as you pick and understand one theory, and also understand when an author is writing which theory he is using (so your not confused).

It is my hope that this is just some kind of confusion here on the forum, based on something similar (theory and which way we learned), (or what we call the anode or cathode), I feel Dr Poe is a smart man and has much to add to the forum, and would hate to think he had some other motive here.

I feel there has been way too much confusion here on the forum with many of your statements Dr. Poe.

And I really hope it is not on purpose or that your using your intelligence as a destructive force, many times you overstate true facts in such a way to make them have more weight than they should, it makes me wonder are you just so educated and do not see what you say or are you just studying and talking about things you do not know of, or are you trying to slip in some deception in with your statements, I wish you would be honest with us and help clear this up, I also hate to say these things, to another human asking him to clear this up, I would also like to think the best of you, as I have seen good that can come from you, But I also see something else (I hope is not there), we do need to clear this air.

From my education level, and understanding.
Dr. has brought up some very good facts that can help others on the forum.
But he has also stated things (that although fact have little effect, and has made thing’s into mountains out of mole hills, or even more confusing).

The purpose of the forum is to help other’s not to confuse things further.

Although I would like to hear more of the discussion of electrolysis, and understand it better, and for you Dr, Poe to explain your view on this, but I feel there are more important things we need to clear up first, are you an honest scientist or a troll on the forum, It is my hope you’re an honest man.

Butcher


----------



## publius

I hope this thread gets locked soon...


----------



## AlZabrisky

publius said:


> I hope this thread gets locked soon...



On the contrary, an individual's integrity is on the line. An explanation is due on both counts, the science of electroplating as well as moral intent. Poe has shared much with this forum, but when long standing members like GSP and Butcher are concerned, it is time to come clean.
Perhaps the question of integrity is premature ( I hope), however, the discussion on electroplating may become quite enlightening and we may all benefit from the outcome.

Dr. AlZabrisky.


----------



## Dr. Poe

I guess the polarization of gold is too much to grasp for some. It's their insistence that gold must be reduced to a metallic in all cases. Their insistence that gold salts cannot be anionic and react like sulfur. Such stubbornness cannot be changed by reason and I don't intend to try anymore. I don't care if this thread is locked or not. I visit the forum to teach those that need my help, not to argue. Dr. Poe


----------



## publius

Dr. AlZabrisky,

I too will benefit from the discussion of the science behind electrowinning/plating and the recovery from the thiosulphate solution. I find it fascinating.

What I dislike it the acrimony. If the discussion could be carried on in a civil manner I would have no problem with this thread at all.

Robert Jeffery, CWI


----------



## jeneje

Dr. Poe said:


> I guess the polarization of gold is too much to grasp for some. It's their insistence that gold must be reduced to a metallic in all cases. Their insistence that gold salts cannot be anionic and react like sulfur. Such stubbornness cannot be changed by reason and I don't intend to try anymore. I don't care if this thread is locked or not. I visit the forum to teach those that need my help, not to argue. Dr. Poe


 :shock:


----------



## goldsilverpro

I kinda like having Dr.Poe around. The forum was getting boring to me and he has certainly livened it up. I think Dr.Poe has posed some interesting, thought-provoking, unique ideas. However, what he doesn't realize, is that there are several members that are at least as "world class" as he is. Because of this and because there are several other members that can fill in the gaps, BS never flies. Make a false statement here and you'll get called on it. This is a strong community that has its standards. Dr.Poe will fit in fine once he realizes his comeuppance. It took me about 3 months to realize mine.

Before ICMJ was ICMJ, it was just CMJ - California Mining Journal. For several years, in the early 80s, there was a guy named Lasley (I think) that had a fair-sized monthly column. He owned an obscure technical institute in Salt Lake City and he basically played around with ore processes. Many articles dealt with thiosulfate and I've heard that he invented the SSN processes. He was obviously a smart knowledgeable man, with flashes of brilliance. However, in his articles, you never really learned how to do anything. He would just tease you and skirt around the issues. He would quote long windy obscure theories, all clouded in mystery and innuendo and mumbo-jumbo. You tried to read between the lines without much luck. In the end, you learned nothing. Maybe he put the needed step1, step2,___ stuff in his newsletter that he sold.


----------



## jimmydolittle

Right on Chris. :lol:


----------



## AlZabrisky

Veiled apologies. I am relieved.
Poe's explanation will suffice.

Dr AlZabrisky.


----------



## butcher

"I guess the polarization of gold is too much to grasp for some. It's their insistence that gold must be reduced to a metallic in all cases. Their insistence that gold salts cannot be anionic and react like sulfur. Such stubbornness cannot be changed by reason and I don't intend to try anymore. I don't care if this thread is locked or not. I visit the forum to teach those that need my help, not to argue. Dr. Poe"


Dr. Poe I am learning and wish to understand.
But when you state something that is contrary to all of the other (known creditable) sources of information I have studied, it makes me question whether there is something I have yet to understand, or if your information is accurate, I personally do not come here to argue, I come here to learn, and I feel an attachment to the forum and feel protective over it, as it is a great source of knowledge for man, revealing secrets held since the beginning of man, when man has dealt with these metals and science many have tried to corrupt the true knowledge of its chemistry (practically changing it into magic), this forum has debunked much of this magic and revealed the true science behind the mystery, and this I hope is your mission too. Sadly I know there are men who for some reason wish to distort or corrupt knowledge, and work to create chaos (like I said I sincerely hope that is not the case here). 

I am not opposed to learning something new, and admit I will never understand much of it, if it is possible for gold to plate out as salts, that notion does sound feasible (in this case it is not gold reduced but a salt that is reduced, for something to be reduced something else has to be oxidized). Please help me to understand the chemistry behind this, what is the chemistry involved, is the gold reduced as a gold metal, gold sulfate salt, gold sulfide salt (or some other salt), and what is oxidized, also what in this solution is chemically or electrically keeping the anions, and Cations from separating (elemental gold separating from the thiosulfate), or if they do separate, differently than gold metal and an thiosulfate or sulfate or sulfide how they do separate.

If I make a statement here on the forum and someone questions it I have be willing to back up that statement with facts.

Yes I have questioned your information as sometimes it has been very strange to me, different from much of what I have studied, and I know you are more educated than I am, but also I guess I just do not believe everything somebody writes, no matter what education level or paper they have, I have to find data to back that written statement or understand it better for myself, so hopefully you will show me.

Dr. Poe, I also know that for us to question you in this matter and they fashion has the effect to anger you, but also you have to understand how much this forum means to many of us here, and how important it is to us to keep the facts straight, I feel we are all rooting for you to just be misunderstood, and are hoping you can show us that our concerns are invalid;

So please help us to understand the chemistry of how gold plates out on the anode.

My mind is subject to change by reason, yes I am stubborn about what I know or believe in, so you do have your work cut out to educate me otherwise.


----------



## Dr. Poe

butcher said:


> "I guess the polarization of gold is too much to grasp for some. It's their insistence that gold must be reduced to a metallic in all cases. Their insistence that gold salts cannot be anionic and react like sulfur. Such stubbornness cannot be changed by reason and I don't intend to try anymore. I don't care if this thread is locked or not. I visit the forum to teach those that need my help, not to argue. Dr. Poe"
> 
> 
> Dr. Poe I am learning and wish to understand.
> But when you state something that is contrary to all of the other (known creditable) sources of information I have studied, it makes me question whether there is something I have yet to understand, or if your information is accurate, I personally do not come here to argue, I come here to learn, and I feel an attachment to the forum and feel protective over it, as it is a great source of knowledge for man, revealing secrets held since the beginning of man, when man has dealt with these metals and science many have tried to corrupt the true knowledge of its chemistry (practically changing it into magic), this forum has debunked much of this magic and revealed the true science behind the mystery, and this I hope is your mission too. Sadly I know there are men who for some reason wish to distort or corrupt knowledge, and work to create chaos (like I said I sincerely hope that is not the case here).
> 
> I am not opposed to learning something new, and admit I will never understand much of it, if it is possible for gold to plate out as salts, that notion does sound feasible (in this case it is not gold reduced but a salt that is reduced, for something to be reduced something else has to be oxidized). Please help me to understand the chemistry behind this, what is the chemistry involved, is the gold reduced as a gold metal, gold sulfate salt, gold sulfide salt (or some other salt), and what is oxidized, also what in this solution is chemically or electrically keeping the anions, and Cations from separating (elemental gold separating from the thiosulfate), or if they do separate, differently than gold metal and an thiosulfate or sulfate or sulfide how they do separate.
> 
> If I make a statement here on the forum and someone questions it I have be willing to back up that statement with facts.
> 
> Yes I have questioned your information as sometimes it has been very strange to me, different from much of what I have studied, and I know you are more educated than I am, but also I guess I just do not believe everything somebody writes, no matter what education level or paper they have, I have to find data to back that written statement or understand it better for myself, so hopefully you will show me.
> 
> Dr. Poe, I also know that for us to question you in this matter and they fashion has the effect to anger you, but also you have to understand how much this forum means to many of us here, and how important it is to us to keep the facts straight, I feel we are all rooting for you to just be misunderstood, and are hoping you can show us that our concerns are invalid;
> 
> So please help us to understand the chemistry of how gold plates out on the anode.
> 
> My mind is subject to change by reason, yes I am stubborn about what I know or believe in, so you do have your work cut out to educate me otherwise.



Very well, I will try again:
I've stated several times that complex gold salts have a negative charge and therefore plate onto the positive 

electrode. I've also stated that simple gold salts will plate onto the negative electrode. What if the two were mixed?
In the case of gold chloride (Au2Cl6 and acid gold chloride (HAuCl4), the difference starts with the addition of 

hydrochloric acid. For normal plating, only a small amount of hydrochloric acid is added for conductivity. The salt 

is mostly Au2Cl6 which hydrolyzes to Au+ and Cl- . The gold having a positive charge is plated upon the cathode 

(negative electrode). The chlorine having a negative charge is released upon or attacks the anode. The small 

percentage of acid gold chloride migrates to the positive electrode where it decomposes and then redissolves into 

gold chloride (Au2Cl6) . A continuous circle is maintained until all the gold is plated upon the cathode.
However, if the ratio of molecules of HCl and of Au2Cl6 is equal, HAuCl4 is the only product and totally plates on 

the anode. The hydrolysis of the salt is H+ AuCl4- . Hydrogen is released at the cathode and chlorine is 

released at the anode where gold is decomposed. Part of the gold redissolves into the chlorine where it mixes with 

excess HCl available and returns to the anode again to decomposes into gold and chlorine.
So to clarify; Where HCl is low, plating occurs on the cathode. Where HCl is high, plating occurs on the anode.
In the case of alkali complexes of gold: Hydrolysis is Na+ Au(S2O3)- where hydrogen and sodium is plated or 

released on the cathode and the complex negative gold anion is decomposed by the anode.
In commerce, the plating of gold chloride, if a mistake is made and too much HCl is added to the solution, only 

hydrogen is evolved at the cathode and chlorine at the anode until enough hydrogen escapes the solution then the 

monovalent gold chloride (AuCl) is formed at the anode, mixes with HCl forming HAuCl+ which hydrolyzes to H+Au+ 

and Cl-, the gold migrates to the cathode where it deposits. In most all alkali complexes of gold, the gold is within 

a negative anion and hydrolyzes to alkali+ and gold anion- where gold is deposited upon the anode.
In all alkali complexes of gold, the gold reacts as an acid, attacking the anode. If it were not an acid, how could 

it form stable salts with alkali? A simple rule is to expect simple compounds of gold to build up on the cathode.
Complex gold salts give up gold to the anode. Dr. Poe


----------



## butcher

Very well, I will try again:
I've stated several times that complex gold salts have a negative charge and therefore plate onto the positive 

As I understand it these dissolved salts are basically neutralized compounds (although they can be somewhat acidic (free acid in solution)) and these salts composed of (gold) positive metal Cation (gold atom missing electrons), and a negative Anion (chloride) (chlorine atom with excess electrons), (forming a complex salt neutral in solution), 

which in an electrolytic cell these salts can be split, by forcing electrons through the cell, and creating a positive electrode (anode), and a negative electrode (cathode), 

the positive gold ion is attracted to the cathode and is reduced(gains it’s electron back) to form metal and plate out at cathode,

chloride is attracted to the anode, and oxidized (looses electron)to form chlorine (depending on current and other cell conditions such as electrolyte would depend on how much of this chlorine is released as gas and how much is left in solution to attack and dissolve anode, as long as the anode is not inert to the chlorine), (if free acid in solution and again depending on current and cell condition’s the positive hydrogen can form gas at the cathode or stay in solution), (and chlorine can form a gas and either remain in solution or gas off).

I have heard where salts can be formed or separated in electrolysis, but I have never heard of them plating out as metal salts (Anion/Cation) on the anode, or cathode for that matter 

(Anion and Cation plating to one electrode?? This statement baffles me),

electrode. I've also stated that simple gold salts will plate onto the negative electrode. What if the two were mixed?

As I understand it when gold plates out to cathode it is no longer a salt as it has gained an electron and becomes a metal, no longer bonded to the anion chloride (chlorine).

In the case of gold chloride (Au2Cl6 and acid gold chloride (HAuCl4), the difference starts with the addition of 

hydrochloric acid. For normal plating, only a small amount of hydrochloric acid is added for conductivity. The salt 

is mostly Au2Cl6 which hydrolyzes to Au+ and Cl- . The gold having a positive charge is plated upon the cathode 

(negative electrode). The chlorine having a negative charge is released upon or attacks the anode. The small 

percentage of acid gold chloride migrates to the positive electrode where it decomposes and then redissolves into 

gold chloride (Au2Cl6) . A continuous circle is maintained until all the gold is plated upon the cathode.
However, if the ratio of molecules of HCl and of Au2Cl6 is equal, HAuCl4 is the only product and totally plates on 

the anode. The hydrolysis of the salt is H+ AuCl4- . Hydrogen is released at the cathode and chlorine is 

Here the above statement’s is very confusing to me. How much HCL was in solution would make no difference which plate the gold would be reduced at and how the Cations and Anions would split, the current of the cell can have some effect on gases evolved.

In your statement above “(H+ AuCl4-)”, I do not see it this way, yes Hydrogen is positive, but gold in this is also positive, the chlorine is the only Anion that is negative, the way you state this you make it seem as though the Cation gold becomes an Anion when combined with chlorine, I do not know if that is what your stating but I beg to differ.

released at the anode where gold is decomposed. Part of the gold redissolves into the chlorine where it mixes with 

excess HCl available and returns to the anode again to decomposes into gold and chlorine.
So to clarify; Where HCl is low, plating occurs on the cathode. Where HCl is high, plating occurs on the anode.
In the case of alkali complexes of gold: Hydrolysis is Na+ Au(S2O3)- where hydrogen and sodium is plated or 

Here again you show gold with a negative charge? Yes it is a salt in solution but the gold is still missing an electron and the thiosulfate has an excess electron which makes this salt bond, as far as I know if we gave the gold back an electron through electrolysis it would plate out deposit or whatever you wish to call it at the cathode.

released on the cathode and the complex negative gold anion is decomposed by the anode.
In commerce, the plating of gold chloride, if a mistake is made and too much HCl is added to the solution, only 

Gold is a Cation not an anion, how did it change polarity?

hydrogen is evolved at the cathode and chlorine at the anode until enough hydrogen escapes the solution then the 

monovalent gold chloride (AuCl) is formed at the anode, mixes with HCl forming HAuCl+ which hydrolyzes to H+Au+ 

and Cl-, the gold migrates to the cathode where it deposits.

In most all alkali complexes of gold, the gold is within 

a negative anion and hydrolyzes to alkali+ and gold anion- where gold is deposited upon the anode.
In all alkali complexes of gold, the gold reacts as an acid, attacking the anode. If it were not an acid, how could

it form stable salts with alkali? A simple rule is to expect simple compounds of gold to build up on the cathode.
Complex gold salts give up gold to the anode. Dr. Poe



.The alkali has excess electrons, which gold can take an electron from, to from the stable complex as an alkali solution of gold.

I do not see this as gold acting as an acid, but if that is how you explain it I am fine with that.

Dr. Poe, I do agree with much of what you stated, I can see you do have a very good understanding of most of the chemistry and principles involved, 

(But some of it also seems to wander off of the normal principles or at least how I have learned them). 

But I still cannot see where (especially in an acid solution of electrolysis where these salts would plate out. 

The statements surrounding H+ AuCl-, seem like your saying that only the hydrogen is missing an electron and the AuCl as a salt has excess electrons, 

When in my mind the Hydrogen is missing its electron, the gold is missing an electron, and only chlorine has the excess of electrons to make the complex HAuCl3.


Ferrell stated they observed gold at the anode, and I have no doubt that it could be true, but I also have to wonder which pole they are describing, or if these are in fact salts of gold plating out or if it is elemental gold.

And I am even more confused by some of the descriptions above most of which is exactly like I have learned it, but some parts of the description seem to change the polarity of these atoms as they become salt complexes, Dr. Poe I still either think one of us does not understand this fully (I can admit I do have a limited understanding), but from what I do understand, it also seems to me by your description above you do not have a complete understanding either, or one of us needs to help the other to come to the same understanding on this subject,

I guess I need more help understanding how this salt complex can have a polarity as a whole and plate to the anode,

(How can the (Cation) oxidized atom of gold missing electrons become and (Anion).

When I see the complex as dividing and the atoms each being oxidized or reduced at their respective poles, (gold atom gaining electron at cathode and plating out there), (and chlorine being oxidized and loosing electrons at anode), (and if elemental gold was the anode its atom would give up an electron to the chlorine and dissolve into solution as a complex of gold chloride).


Dr. Poe I like your discription it is very well done, but can you clarify some of this confusion for me.


Thanks again for being willing to do this.


----------



## nickvc

Dr.Poe please understand the forum is the only place on the Internet where complete and honest instructions as to how to refine and recover precious metals are laid out in simple terms. You as many other members, use a screen name which reveals little as to who you are or your actual identity, so your going to be questioned. The members that contribute to the debates and the moderators regard this forum with huge pride and no one is beyond been called to either explain or give full disclosure about a process or method outlined on here. The chemistry and physics behind this is way over my head but I live in hope that it will be of use to some of the members in their search for ways to recover and refine gold.
Perhaps one way to prove this method is for a member to submit samples to someone like Butcher,who understands a lot more than me and is well respected, for a controlled test to prove the theory which to many of us seems beyond understanding.
Dr.Poe if what you have posted is correct please don't take offence, we all want to learn but we need to prove the method so that what is written on the forum remains valid and correct and has the backing of all involved.


----------



## Dr. Poe

[Here the above statement’s is very confusing to me. How much HCL was in solution would make no difference which plate the gold would be reduced at and how the Cations and Anions would split, the current of the cell can have some effect on gases evolved.] Gold isn't corroded by chlorine except in the presence of water, HCl or at high temperatures. In fact Au+3 is reduced by chlorine, a reversible reaction in HCl or water unless the chlorine is removed from the reaction. Once reduced, the gold becomes a colloidal particle with a negative static charge attracting it to a positive charged anode. Au2Cl6 and HAuCl4 are two different compounds and hydrolyze differently.

[In your statement above “(H+ AuCl4-)”, I do not see it this way, yes Hydrogen is positive, but gold in this is also positive, the chlorine is the only Anion that is negative, the way you state this you make it seem as though the Cation gold becomes an Anion when combined with chlorine, I do not know if that is what your stating but I beg to differ.]
The negative charge or Cl4 is -4 which is one electron more than the gold's +3 needs leaving the compound with a negative charge or -1. Gold is not the anion, but the compound of gold with four chlorines is the anion. At the anode, gold steals chlorine's electrons which in turn chlorine steals electrons from the solution. Over all, leaving the gold with a charge of zero.
A static charge on the surface draws the gold metallic particle to the anode where it also is neutralized.
Change the H+ to Na+ and change the AuCl4- to Au(S2O3)- and the same reasons happen in alkaline solutions.
Drop a wafer (1/2 a zinc penny) into a solution of HAuCl4 and the gold doesn't plate onto the copper, but instead corrodes the zinc depositing gold and turning the zinc black to the naked eye. Were you correct the gold would plate onto the copper.
The copper being the cathode to the zinc's anode. But this doesn't happen. The gold clings to the zinc.
Do the same experiment with Au2Cl6 and the gold plates to the copper. 
I have a question. If someone has never plated gold from a sodium thiosulfate solution should they confess to being an expert on the subject? No, I am not referring to you. Dr. Poe ( real name and title) PHD Geochemical Research


----------



## Dr. Poe

nickvc said:


> Dr.Poe please understand the forum is the only place on the Internet where complete and honest instructions as to how to refine and recover precious metals are laid out in simple terms. You as many other members, use a screen name which reveals little as to who you are or your actual identity, so your going to be questioned. The members that contribute to the debates and the moderators regard this forum with huge pride and no one is beyond been called to either explain or give full disclosure about a process or method outlined on here. The chemistry and physics behind this is way over my head but I live in hope that it will be of use to some of the members in their search for ways to recover and refine gold.
> Perhaps one way to prove this method is for a member to submit samples to someone like Butcher,who understands a lot more than me and is well respected, for a controlled test to prove the theory which to many of us seems beyond understanding.
> Dr.Poe if what you have posted is correct please don't take offence, we all want to learn but we need to prove the method so that what is written on the forum remains valid and correct and has the backing of all involved.


A man had never made a map, yet disputed the map makers with decades of experience. Travel west to find the far East?
How ridiculous did this Christopher Columbus sound to all but one queen. Mrs. Ferrell proved my points. Does someone question her integrity? Does someone need proof? Let them extract gold with an alkali thiosulfate and use two titanium plates. Then tell us, Which electrode plated the copper and the silver. Which electrode plated the gold?
For me, the copper and the silver plated on the cathode, but the gold always plated to the anode. Dr. Poe


----------



## butcher

First Dr. Poe, I really appreciate your discussion on this.

{Gold isn't corroded by chlorine except in the presence of water, HCl or at high temperatures.}

I was under the impression gold or platinum group metals were attacked by chlorine gas alone, I also understood it was at high temperatures that this reaction occurs, or under the conditions of acids when mixed with the chlorine in solution. Gold powders will dissolve in chlorine gas >180 deg C.

In the electrochemical cell, I was under the impression it was an external power supply that was one of the causes for the reactions that would not normally occur without the power supply’s force in moving these electrons and through the cell, although these electrons are actually moving through these chemical reactions not only by the force of the external power source but also by the atomic charge on these atoms in solution, Electrons and ions transfering electrons in solution, and also by the charge of the elemental atoms in the electrodes (being forced to a polarity by the external source).

So where an anode may not normally be attacked or corroded by a solution (or chlorine in solution), it is this external power source that is the driving force behind this domino theory.

Lets take a gold chloride solution for example, and a pure gold anode, a pure gold cathode, no free acid or oxidizer, no external power source, hooked up to our anode or our cathode, gold chloride solution in equilibrium, no more gold dissolving at either electrode, we would have no electron movement through this cell from atom to atom.
But if we hooked up a battery, or a power supply to our two gold electrodes, now making one gold electrode (electron poor), (the cells anode). 
Making the other gold electrode (electron rich), (the cells cathode).
Now we are starting this domino reaction through our cell.
Gold (Cation) in solution around the cathode will plate out as metal onto the cathode (the cathode’s excess electrons giving the gold an electron reducing the gold to metal, (gold was a Cation missing an electron, and forming a complex salt in solution with the anion chloride’s).
Now this salt complex has been broken as well as its bond, this leaves a freed chloride’s in solution as these chloride’s move’s to the vicinity of the gold (electron poor) anode, the chloride’s are oxidized (loss of atom) to chlorine gases, (these free chlorine gas atom’s can now join with a gold atom from the anode and become a salt complex with the chlorines to again form gold chloride in solution.


I was also under the impression that it was this external power source that was the driving force behind the flow of these electrons through the electrochemical cell, and also the driving force for the chlorine generated in this cell to dissolve the pure gold at the anode.

{In fact Au+3 is reduced by chlorine, a reversible reaction in HCl or water unless the chlorine is removed from the reaction. Once reduced, the gold becomes a colloidal particle with a negative static charge attracting it to a positive charged anode. Au2Cl6 and HAuCl4 are two different compounds and hydrolyze differently.}

Dr. Poe I really do not know how to respond to this statement, Au+3 gold (III) chloride, would not normally be in solution or salt alone,(as I see it it is already bonded with chlorides or another halide) here the gold is missing three electrons, and I assume if we are discussing a chloride solution it would be a gold chloride salt in solution, AuCl3 (dilute gold dissolved in aqua regia, one gold atom bonded with three chlorine atoms), HAuCl4 (highly acidic solution of gold dissolved in aqua regia, one gold atom bonded with four chlorine atoms), or Au2Cl6 (a dehydrated salt of gold from heating aqua regia, two gold atoms bonded with six chlorine atoms).
How would the gold salt in this solution be reduced (gain electrons from chlorine) unless the acidity changed, or from some other reaction or outside force caused the original gold complex changed valence, or to transfer electrons, and if we are talking about in electrolytic solutions, unless we change the water or acid content.


[In your statement above “(H+ AuCl4-)”, I do not see it this way, yes Hydrogen is positive, but gold in this is also positive, the chlorine is the only Anion that is negative, the way you state this you make it seem as though the Cation gold becomes an Anion when combined with chlorine, I do not know if that is what your stating but I beg to differ.]

{The negative charge or Cl4 is -4 which is one electron more than the gold's +3 needs leaving the compound with a negative charge or -1. Gold is not the anion, but the compound of gold with four chlorines is the anion.}

I really do not understand the math here, if we are speaking of gold (III) chloride, HAuCl4, yes I see this one gold atom bonded with four chlorine atoms in this acidic solution, the one gold atoms bonded by sharing an electron with these chlorines, but I also see this one gold atom (Cation) bonded to the four chlorine (Anions), and I also see how they could easily divide, or separate in an electrolytic cell, Dr. Poe I do have to admit you make me scratch my head, and are making me want to read more books to see if I am missing something here, but honestly I do not see this compound as an Anion (having a negative charge) (or having one excess electron), (but I also never seen these atoms in person and cannot picture them in my head).

{At the anode, gold steals chlorine's electrons which in turn chlorine steals electrons from the solution. Over all, leaving the gold with a charge of zero.
A static charge on the surface draws the gold metallic particle to the anode where it also is neutralized.}

The way I learned this the chloride at the anode is oxidized to chlorine gas and the gold atom of the anode (electron poor gold anode) creates a gold complex in solution (sharing electrons) to become a neutral salt in solution, (the hydrogen being a positive Cation is reduced at the cathode as gas or kept in solution depending on cells conditions).

{Change the H+ to Na+ and change the AuCl4- to Au(S2O3)- and the same reasons happen in alkaline solutions.
Drop a wafer (1/2 a zinc penny) into a solution of HAuCl4 and the gold doesn't plate onto the copper, but instead corrodes the zinc depositing gold and turning the zinc black to the naked eye. Were you correct the gold would plate onto the copper.
The copper being the cathode to the zinc's anode. But this doesn't happen. The gold clings to the zinc.}

In my mind depending on how much of this acidic solution and how much penny was involved, the acidic solution would attack the zinc (being very reactive inside the penny with a vigorous reaction this zinc would begin to replace gold from solution (cementing the gold), making a zinc chloride solution, and if gold was totally cemented form solution it would not attack the copper, but if the zinc was used up and there was still gold in solution then the copper would begin to replace gold from solution also. Basically until the metal lower in the reactivity series had replace all of the gold in solution. 
But in this highly acidic gold solution I can also see it dissolving the copper plated zinc penny (zinc reacting faster of course), and depending on how much solution we are talking about end up with a zinc chloride solution with gold and copper metal powders in the bottom of this vessel.

Also if you are saying the gold is reduced first by the higher of the two metals (zinc and copper in the reactivity series I agree.


{Do the same experiment with Au2Cl6 and the gold plates to the copper.}

Well that is slightly over my head, as I always thought Au2Cl6 was a salt of evaporated gold chloride solution, and as reactive as zinc is I believe if this copper zinc penny was left in the (more neutral, but still acidic powders) the I would have to say I believe gold would still be reduced to metal by zinc first then by gold, but I am just speculating as I do not have any experience with Au2CL6.

{I have a question. If someone has never plated gold from a sodium thiosulfate solution should they confess to being an expert on the subject? No, I am not referring to you. Dr. Poe ( real name and title) PHD Geochemical Research}

Dr. Poe thank you again for this discussion and I must say it is tiring out my brain as I Have spent all night on this discussion when I should have been in bed 8 hours ago, and have to go to work here in a few more hours, you have brought up several things that I will study, and like I said before there is no doubt you are more educated than I am, and I do hope we can continue to share these Idea’s, As your statements here still leave me with some unanswered questions on this subject.

Also I have stated from the beginning, that I have had no experience in plating gold from, or even leaching gold from a thiosulfate solution, I have never confessed to being an expert in anything, much less gold refining or recovery, electrolysis or any other subject for that matter, although I have tried to learn as much as I can about this subject of these metals, since becoming a backyard refiner.

Well I have to clean up for work, I also would like to discuss these Ideas further when I have more time, and I will study some more on these thoughts when I have time.

(Real name, and title) 
Butcher, unprofessional back yard refiner.


----------



## Dr. Poe

butcher said:


> First Dr. Poe, I really appreciate your discussion on this.
> 
> {Gold isn't corroded by chlorine except in the presence of water, HCl or at high temperatures.}
> 
> I was under the impression gold or platinum group metals were attacked by chlorine gas alone, I also understood it was at high temperatures that this reaction occurs, or under the conditions of acids when mixed with the chlorine in solution. Gold powders will dissolve in chlorine gas >180 deg C.
> 
> In the electrochemical cell, I was under the impression it was an external power supply that was one of the causes for the reactions that would not normally occur without the power supply’s force in moving these electrons and through the cell, although these electrons are actually moving through these chemical reactions not only by the force of the external power source but also by the atomic charge on these atoms in solution, Electrons and ions transfering electrons in solution, and also by the charge of the elemental atoms in the electrodes (being forced to a polarity by the external source).
> 
> So where an anode may not normally be attacked or corroded by a solution (or chlorine in solution), it is this external power source that is the driving force behind this domino theory.
> 
> Lets take a gold chloride solution for example, and a pure gold anode, a pure gold cathode, no free acid or oxidizer, no external power source, hooked up to our anode or our cathode, gold chloride solution in equilibrium, no more gold dissolving at either electrode, we would have no electron movement through this cell from atom to atom.
> But if we hooked up a battery, or a power supply to our two gold electrodes, now making one gold electrode (electron poor), (the cells anode).
> Making the other gold electrode (electron rich), (the cells cathode).
> Now we are starting this domino reaction through our cell.
> Gold (Cation) in solution around the cathode will plate out as metal onto the cathode (the cathode’s excess electrons giving the gold an electron reducing the gold to metal, (gold was a Cation missing an electron, and forming a complex salt in solution with the anion chloride’s).
> Now this salt complex has been broken as well as its bond, this leaves a freed chloride’s in solution as these chloride’s move’s to the vicinity of the gold (electron poor) anode, the chloride’s are oxidized (loss of atom) to chlorine gases, (these free chlorine gas atom’s can now join with a gold atom from the anode and become a salt complex with the chlorines to again form gold chloride in solution.
> 
> 
> I was also under the impression that it was this external power source that was the driving force behind the flow of these electrons through the electrochemical cell, and also the driving force for the chlorine generated in this cell to dissolve the pure gold at the anode.
> 
> {In fact Au+3 is reduced by chlorine, a reversible reaction in HCl or water unless the chlorine is removed from the reaction. Once reduced, the gold becomes a colloidal particle with a negative static charge attracting it to a positive charged anode. Au2Cl6 and HAuCl4 are two different compounds and hydrolyze differently.}
> 
> Dr. Poe I really do not know how to respond to this statement, Au+3 gold (III) chloride, would not normally be in solution or salt alone,(as I see it it is already bonded with chlorides or another halide) here the gold is missing three electrons, and I assume if we are discussing a chloride solution it would be a gold chloride salt in solution, AuCl3 (dilute gold dissolved in aqua regia, one gold atom bonded with three chlorine atoms), HAuCl4 (highly acidic solution of gold dissolved in aqua regia, one gold atom bonded with four chlorine atoms), or Au2Cl6 (a dehydrated salt of gold from heating aqua regia, two gold atoms bonded with six chlorine atoms).
> How would the gold salt in this solution be reduced (gain electrons from chlorine) unless the acidity changed, or from some other reaction or outside force caused the original gold complex changed valence, or to transfer electrons, and if we are talking about in electrolytic solutions, unless we change the water or acid content.
> 
> 
> [In your statement above “(H+ AuCl4-)”, I do not see it this way, yes Hydrogen is positive, but gold in this is also positive, the chlorine is the only Anion that is negative, the way you state this you make it seem as though the Cation gold becomes an Anion when combined with chlorine, I do not know if that is what your stating but I beg to differ.]
> 
> {The negative charge or Cl4 is -4 which is one electron more than the gold's +3 needs leaving the compound with a negative charge or -1. Gold is not the anion, but the compound of gold with four chlorines is the anion.}
> 
> I really do not understand the math here, if we are speaking of gold (III) chloride, HAuCl4, yes I see this one gold atom bonded with four chlorine atoms in this acidic solution, the one gold atoms bonded by sharing an electron with these chlorines, but I also see this one gold atom (Cation) bonded to the four chlorine (Anions), and I also see how they could easily divide, or separate in an electrolytic cell, Dr. Poe I do have to admit you make me scratch my head, and are making me want to read more books to see if I am missing something here, but honestly I do not see this compound as an Anion (having a negative charge) (or having one excess electron), (but I also never seen these atoms in person and cannot picture them in my head).
> 
> {At the anode, gold steals chlorine's electrons which in turn chlorine steals electrons from the solution. Over all, leaving the gold with a charge of zero.
> A static charge on the surface draws the gold metallic particle to the anode where it also is neutralized.}
> 
> The way I learned this the chloride at the anode is oxidized to chlorine gas and the gold atom of the anode (electron poor gold anode) creates a gold complex in solution (sharing electrons) to become a neutral salt in solution, (the hydrogen being a positive Cation is reduced at the cathode as gas or kept in solution depending on cells conditions).
> 
> {Change the H+ to Na+ and change the AuCl4- to Au(S2O3)- and the same reasons happen in alkaline solutions.
> Drop a wafer (1/2 a zinc penny) into a solution of HAuCl4 and the gold doesn't plate onto the copper, but instead corrodes the zinc depositing gold and turning the zinc black to the naked eye. Were you correct the gold would plate onto the copper.
> The copper being the cathode to the zinc's anode. But this doesn't happen. The gold clings to the zinc.}
> 
> In my mind depending on how much of this acidic solution and how much penny was involved, the acidic solution would attack the zinc (being very reactive inside the penny with a vigorous reaction this zinc would begin to replace gold from solution (cementing the gold), making a zinc chloride solution, and if gold was totally cemented form solution it would not attack the copper, but if the zinc was used up and there was still gold in solution then the copper would begin to replace gold from solution also. Basically until the metal lower in the reactivity series had replace all of the gold in solution.
> But in this highly acidic gold solution I can also see it dissolving the copper plated zinc penny (zinc reacting faster of course), and depending on how much solution we are talking about end up with a zinc chloride solution with gold and copper metal powders in the bottom of this vessel.
> 
> Also if you are saying the gold is reduced first by the higher of the two metals (zinc and copper in the reactivity series I agree.
> 
> 
> {Do the same experiment with Au2Cl6 and the gold plates to the copper.}
> 
> Well that is slightly over my head, as I always thought Au2Cl6 was a salt of evaporated gold chloride solution, and as reactive as zinc is I believe if this copper zinc penny was left in the (more neutral, but still acidic powders) the I would have to say I believe gold would still be reduced to metal by zinc first then by gold, but I am just speculating as I do not have any experience with Au2CL6.
> 
> {I have a question. If someone has never plated gold from a sodium thiosulfate solution should they confess to being an expert on the subject? No, I am not referring to you. Dr. Poe ( real name and title) PHD Geochemical Research}
> 
> Dr. Poe thank you again for this discussion and I must say it is tiring out my brain as I Have spent all night on this discussion when I should have been in bed 8 hours ago, and have to go to work here in a few more hours, you have brought up several things that I will study, and like I said before there is no doubt you are more educated than I am, and I do hope we can continue to share these Idea’s, As your statements here still leave me with some unanswered questions on this subject.
> 
> Also I have stated from the beginning, that I have had no experience in plating gold from, or even leaching gold from a thiosulfate solution, I have never confessed to being an expert in anything, much less gold refining or recovery, electrolysis or any other subject for that matter, although I have tried to learn as much as I can about this subject of these metals, since becoming a backyard refiner.
> 
> Well I have to clean up for work, I also would like to discuss these Ideas further when I have more time, and I will study some more on these thoughts when I have time.
> 
> (Real name, and title)
> Butcher, unprofessional back yard refiner.


In physics, math and chemistry, radicals cancel each other out and so are most often written with the canceled radicals omited. This takes away some of the knowledge presented to short cut to the end products. For instance the addition of sulfuric acid to sodium chloride solutions is often written omitting the intermediate formation of sodium bi-sulfate.
I also was not referring to you as one that's not ever plated gold from sodium thiosulfate solutions. I was referring to a phantom member of a name simular to Great Silly Poser. Gold acid doesn't get it's name from addition of acid, but because it actually becomes an acid. Dr. Poe


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## AlZabrisky

LOL.
I am amused.
*Slaps knee.*

Dr AlZabrisky.


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## renatomerino

Hello friends:
It is a privilege to participate in a forum of this type and learn about different ideas about topics that we meet.
It would be very interesting to see a contribution to practical data and photos on the theme proposed by the Dr.Poe.


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## Lou

As far as I'm concerned, butcher really, really, really gets this.


I didn't read through the whole thread, just butcher's query and Dr. Poe's response, now that I see some more of the same crap being perpetrated elsewhere.

I'm not going to spend the time it would take to thoroughly go through this. Suffice it to say, we can have a high level "gold by wohwill cell" thread and make it fairly detailed. Might be worthwhile so we don't have people thinking that you can use chlorine gas to reduce your gold with like it's some practical thing. I just think of all the times I used nice dry chlorine gas (or bromine and iodine) to make AuCl3 (or Au2Cl6) for making into various adducts or sale. Great oxidizer for gold. Works well in solution with HCl since gold takes oxidizing AND complexing conditions to dissolve (cyanide needs air or peroxide, chloride needs free chlorine or nitroysl chloride etc.).


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## freechemist

Finally Lou mentions the since more than 100 years well known Wohlwill-electrolysis, which shows clearly, that pure, refined gold always, without exception, is deposited at the cathode. The cathode is the electrode connected to the negative current-lead, constantly delivering the electrons necessary, to reduce [AuCl4](-)-anions to metallic gold, Au(0), which deposits on the cathode, and "liberating" 4 Cl(-)-anions going into solution, keeping the high free chloride concentration (i.e. the concentration of Cl(-)-anions not bound to an Au(III)-center) needed, to bring about dissolution of the gold-anode, Au(0), at a more or less constant high level. The anode (the metallic gold, to be purified) is the electrode, connected to the positive current lead, delivering, expressed in Dr. Poe's terminology, the holes necessary (i.e. picking up electrons from whatever it is in solution), to bring about oxidation of Au(0) to Au(III), regenerating AuCl4(-)-anions, which are again reduced at the cathode. Thus the current (electrons) flows from the negative pole of the rectifier to the cathode, then through the (gold)-solution, transported by anions (mainly chloride), being oxidized at the anode. In this simple overall-scheme of the Wohlwill-electrolysis one can not make the difference, if first at the anode elemental chlorine is generated, which oxidizes Au(0), or, if Au(0), nearest to the anode surface looses directly three electrons through the current flowing, being directly oxidized to Au(III), which immediately is stabilized in solution as [AuCl4](-) through the abundantly present chloride-ions. This simple scheme also explains, why Wohlwill-refining functions only under certain well defined conditions, namely a very high concentration of free chloride-ions (free HCl) and a high concentration of dissolved gold (as HAuCl4). If these conditions are not fulfilled, only impure gold is deposited at the cathode (i.e. different dissolved substances are deposited also) and/or the gold-anodes don't dissolve, and gaseous chlorine is evolved.

freechemist


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## freechemist

Hi, Ferrell,

It's been quite a long time since I posted something on your topic, which presently is in an elusive discussion about a lot of different things, exempt your ore and it's leaching by a thiosulfate solution. I have read a lot of posts about the subject, and most evident to me is the lack of systematic procedure in all of your experiments. Please excuse me, if I am wrong, but to me it seems, that even today you still don't know exactly what you are dealing with. To me a systematic approach means, that I have to know, for every single experiment:

1.) Exact quantity and exact individual precious metal content of every individual ore-sample to be examined.

2.) What goes in (x g Au, y g Ag,etc.) has to come out. Thus, for every leach-experiment it is very useful to analyze the leach-solution for it's PM-content from time to time, until a constant, no more changing PM-concentration (if there ever are any PMs) is reached. This also helps to find best leaching conditions.

3.) The same holds true for the recovering of the dissolved values.

4.) Before experiments you have to do some calculations. At least you should know the minimal needed quantities of thiosulfate to extract the total PMs contained in the ore-samples quantitatively. The stoichiometric composition of the complex anions to be extracted are most probably [Au(S2O3)2(3-)] and [Ag(S2O3)2(3-)]. Be aware, that always an excess of thiosulfate has to be present, to avoid formation of insoluble sulfides.

5.) You always have to do "blank-experiments" for comparison, especially in recovering. That means, you have to treat a sample of freshly prepared, non-loaded leach-solution the same way, as you intend to treat the loaden leach-solution, and observe what happens in a very detailed manner. Or, on the other side, if you don't find any PMs in your leach, you have to add exactly measured amounts of PMs to your ore-samples, ideally in form of metal or compounds like they should be present in your ore before leaching, in order to find out if your leaching procedure is really functioning.

You see, what you intend to do IMHO is much too complex for you and overstrains your capabilities and competences by far. Thus, the only thing I can recommend you is to enter into relationship with trustful professional recoverers/refiners and sell your ore for the best available price.

In my first post from december, 18 I supposed as a blank experiment, to add some iron(II)sulfate solution to a sample of freshly prepared, non-loaded leach-solution, being quite sure, that you will observe the same phenomena as in the assumed "loaded leach". Much later you posted some nice pictures of electrolysis-experiments, where I am quite convinced too, that you would have observed the same or similar phenomena, using samples of freshly prepared, non-loaded leach-solution.

Good luck and regards,

freechemist


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## renatomerino

I found these publications detailing the leaching with thiosulphate.
Murdoch University site are unprotected and can be downloaded.
http://researchrepository.murdoch.edu.au/422/2/02Whole.pdf
http://researchrepository.murdoch.edu.au/672/2/02Whole.pdf


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## samuel-a

renatomerino said:


> I found these publications detailing the leaching with thiosulphate.
> Murdoch University site are unprotected and can be downloaded.
> http://researchrepository.murdoch.edu.au/422/2/02Whole.pdf
> http://researchrepository.murdoch.edu.au/672/2/02Whole.pdf




Thank you for the link renatomerino.


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## kuma

Hello all , how are tricks?
I hope all is well!

" I was referring to a phantom member of a name simular to Great Silly Poser. "

Dr. Poe , please excuse my ignorance , but as a *noobie* on this forum myself , I am as yet still unfamiliar with the names of many of the active contributing members.
Just so I am current , could you please elaborate to whom you are reffering in the above comment?
I don't mean to be rude , it's just that I find many of your posts cryptic at the best of times and trying to decipher pseudo names only complicates things further for me.
Many thanks in advance ,
Chris


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## goldsilverpro

kuma said:


> Hello all , how are tricks?
> I hope all is well!
> 
> " I was referring to a phantom member of a name simular to Great Silly Poser. "
> 
> Dr. Poe , please excuse my ignorance , but as a *noobie* on this forum myself , I am as yet still unfamiliar with the names of many of the active contributing members.
> Just so I am current , could you please elaborate to whom you are reffering in the above comment?
> I don't mean to be rude , it's just that I find many of your posts cryptic at the best of times and trying to decipher pseudo names only complicates things further for me.
> Many thanks in advance ,
> Chris



He means me. Note the same GSP initials. Dr.Poe has complained about people insulting him. Maybe he should worry about the log in his own eye before worrying about the spec in someone else's.


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## renatomerino

This is an interesting thesis that I recommend.
The site is open and you can download.
https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/14499/ubc_2003-0505.pdf?sequence=1


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## RGJohn

Thanks to GSP, Lou, freechemist, and those others who make a genuine contribution to the advancement of the goals of this site.
I have disconnected from anything involving parties who I feel I am not able to understand.
I think often of Harold's signature line and apply what I understand to be its meaning.
I do these things because I wish to be more like kadriver.


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## lazylightning

Hi Everybody!

Great respect and thanks to everybody here on this site! I think that the results shown in the photos say alot. I was also perplexed about the gold depositing semi-reduced at the positive electrode. But it's an interesting discovery, one must admit. I think it's not all that hard to try. Proof is always in the pudding! 
I am very interested in seeing the developing results in this process. Soon I will be going off to an African country to work dissolving and refining gold for my friends in a Russian company. They were not at all pleased with their own experiments with mercury and want a more effecive and safe technology. It looks like blue/grey clay, so I'm afraid of preg robbing. Looks like this thiosulfate process is the way to go for me. 
Thank you very much for all that you have already shared in this thread, Mrs. Ferrell and Dr. Poe!

Best Regards,
Paul


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## renatomerino

Ferrell said:


> Blast! It loaded my post without letting me do the rest of the pictures. I'm probably doing something wrong, but I'll try again. These will be in order, but it's possible the uploading tool could show them reversed. You want to start viewing from the point the tank/leach is clear.
> 
> Looks like I can only do 5 at a time, so I'll put the rest in another post.


Hi Ferrell:
Like this is your tests with thiosulfate?.
I have some doubts with your annotations as the composition of the leaching solution you buy, the concentrations of different salts per liter, the consumption of reagents per ton, leaching time and rate of dissolution.
I tested for leaching of gold and I would like to exchange data on the subject.


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## Ferrell

lazylightning said:


> Hi Everybody!
> 
> Great respect and thanks to everybody here on this site! I think that the results shown in the photos say alot. I was also perplexed about the gold depositing semi-reduced at the positive electrode. But it's an interesting discovery, one must admit. I think it's not all that hard to try. Proof is always in the pudding!
> I am very interested in seeing the developing results in this process. Soon I will be going off to an African country to work dissolving and refining gold for my friends in a Russian company. They were not at all pleased with their own experiments with mercury and want a more effective and safe technology. It looks like blue/grey clay, so I'm afraid of preg robbing. Looks like this thiosulfate process is the way to go for me.
> Thank you very much for all that you have already shared in this thread, Mrs. Ferrell and Dr. Poe!
> 
> Best Regards,
> Paul



Paul, we're still in the experimenting stage, ourselves, but do feel that we're making progress. We don't like the more dangerous chemicals and want to use thiosulfate to recover the majority of our gold and silver. We're looking at possibly purchasing an electrowinning machine rather than continuing to try to make a homemade job work effectively, as we're still working out the kinks in that process. But the steel wool in the leach did show us that we have a substantial amt of gold that can be recovered.

I don't blame the people in Africa. Mercury can be nasty to work with and I'd be urging them to get away from it if possible, as well. I'll definitely update this forum when we have more to report.


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## Ferrell

renatomerino said:


> Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blast! It loaded my post without letting me do the rest of the pictures. I'm probably doing something wrong, but I'll try again. These will be in order, but it's possible the uploading tool could show them reversed. You want to start viewing from the point the tank/leach is clear.
> 
> Looks like I can only do 5 at a time, so I'll put the rest in another post.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Ferrell:
> Like this is your tests with thiosulfate?.
> I have some doubts with your annotations as the composition of the leaching solution you buy, the concentrations of different salts per liter, the consumption of reagents per ton, leaching time and rate of dissolution.
> I tested for leaching of gold and I would like to exchange data on the subject.
Click to expand...



You have doubts on which aspect? We're still in the experimental stage and still figuring it all out, so can't promise I'll have answers for you.


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## renatomerino

Hello friends:
I have closely followed the comments on the leaching with thiosulphate to use it in auriferous minerals but have not got any particular value.
I have the impression that the tests have been performed only with metals.
Currently silver ores leached by agitation and electrowinning and welcome, I can guide on the subject because I have work values.
In messages sent on leaching with thiosulfate have read only vague comments that can be learned from any book or paper patent.
I personally will try to establish the most suitable composition for leaching gold-bearing ores and carries out the relevant tests and share experiences with you.
In the sites mentioned can be obtained theoretical fundamentals of the leaching with thiosulphate now lack the practical development.
(Translation of Spanish with google)


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## renatomerino

Ahh sorry:
At the mention of any metallurgical testing on the most important thing is to present a metallurgical balance and has not submitted comments on the subject.
Unless the dosage of reagents from there my doubts.


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## patnor1011

Renato, that may be it. You cant find many ore leaching topics here as forum main aim is about PM recovery from electronics or karat gold.


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## renatomerino

patnor1011 said:


> Renato, that may be it. You cant find many ore leaching topics here as forum main aim is about PM recovery from electronics or karat gold.


Among the topics of conversation developed in this forum and samples in which we share experiences and views this: Prospecting, Mining, Ore Concentrates & Geochemical and others.
This gives an idea about the variety of topics in this forum and is the reason that unites us all.


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## patnor1011

I only suggest that what is not here, may be found on some mining forum or site. This area of recovery is not that much pursued on this particular forum.


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## butcher

Many old mining books are great resources of information. 
But I do not know how much they will discuss thiosulfate as a leach, I believe it is a more modern leach to try and find an alternative for cyanide, but the chemistry of photography has been studied for many centuries now, I am not sure how long they have used thiosulfate in their art, but it should be a great resource for your study of this. I would look into the chemistry of photography as well as mining, most of it will most likely speak of silver and thiosulfate, but gold has also had its use in photography.

Renatomerino,
I would be interested in what you learn from your search on this topic.
If someone has a strong interest in a subject, and works hard to find the answer to his questions, and He does not give up on his search for the answer, he will learn the answer to his question, this will usually lead to more questions and more answers, just do not give up looking.


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## renatomerino

butcher said:


> Many old mining books are great resources of information.
> But I do not know how much they will discuss thiosulfate as a leach, I believe it is a more modern leach to try and find an alternative for cyanide, but the chemistry of photography has been studied for many centuries now, I am not sure how long they have used thiosulfate in their art, but it should be a great resource for your study of this. I would look into the chemistry of photography as well as mining, most of it will most likely speak of silver and thiosulfate, but gold has also had its use in photography.
> 
> Renatomerino,
> I would be interested in what you learn from your search on this topic.
> If someone has a strong interest in a subject, and works hard to find the answer to his questions, and He does not give up on his search for the answer, he will learn the answer to his question, this will usually lead to more questions and more answers, just do not give up looking.


You're right, I have thirty years experience in mineral flotation and leaching of gold and silver cyanide.
The change of cyanide to thiosulfate is very interesting and this requires a specialization similar to cyanide where you can understand all the chemical mechanisms of the process.
The first provides some background on the use of thiosulfate is photography.
According to this, first of all I've bought liquid fixative and silver chloride dissolved to 24 g / l.
But all photographic liquids are sold with a denomination without informing their composition.
A typical formulation is:
250 g / l ammonium thiosulfate.
25 g / l sodium sulphite
The presence of sodium sulphite prevents the decomposition of thiosulfate to sulfate.
The formation of thiosulfate is by replacing an atom of oxygen by sulfur in a sulfate ion.
In the process of photography there is a change of silver ionized species therefore does not require a metal oxidation.
In the case of minerals auriferous this generally occurs in metallic state in an infinite number of sizes.
In the oxidation of gold is used as Cu +2 amide as catalyst in the absence of oxygen.
Oxygen degrades to thiosulfate.


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## renatomerino

renatomerino said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many old mining books are great resources of information.
> But I do not know how much they will discuss thiosulfate as a leach, I believe it is a more modern leach to try and find an alternative for cyanide, but the chemistry of photography has been studied for many centuries now, I am not sure how long they have used thiosulfate in their art, but it should be a great resource for your study of this. I would look into the chemistry of photography as well as mining, most of it will most likely speak of silver and thiosulfate, but gold has also had its use in photography.
> 
> Renatomerino,
> I would be interested in what you learn from your search on this topic.
> If someone has a strong interest in a subject, and works hard to find the answer to his questions, and He does not give up on his search for the answer, he will learn the answer to his question, this will usually lead to more questions and more answers, just do not give up looking.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I have thirty years experience in mineral flotation and leaching of gold and silver cyanide.
> The change of cyanide to thiosulfate is very interesting and this requires a specialization similar to cyanide where you can understand all the chemical mechanisms of the process.
> The first provides some background on the use of thiosulfate is photography.
> According to this, first of all I've bought liquid fixative and silver chloride dissolved to 24 g / l.
> But all photographic liquids are sold with a denomination without informing their composition.
> A typical formulation is:
> 250 g / l ammonium thiosulfate.
> 25 g / l sodium sulphite
> The presence of sodium sulphite prevents the decomposition of thiosulfate to sulfate.
> The formation of thiosulfate is by replacing an atom of oxygen by sulfur in a sulfate ion.
> In the process of photography there is a change of silver ionized species therefore does not require a metal oxidation.
> In the case of minerals auriferous this generally occurs in metallic state in an infinite number of sizes.
> In the oxidation of gold is used as Cu +2 amide as catalyst in the absence of oxygen.
> Oxygen degrades to thiosulfate.
Click to expand...

Personally I think the study of the leaching of minerals begins performing laboratory tests with solutions and for pure metals can then continue with the minerals.
I found this site which is leached by thiosulfate, discarded cell phones to extract the gold they contain.
http://tainguyenso.vnu.edu.vn/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/13130/HN_U233.pdf?sequence=1

According to this reference I have prepared the following solution:
125 g / l Sodium thiosulfate + 5H2O
12 g / l Sodium Meta Bisulfite
20 cc / l Ammonia (25%)
7.5 g / L Copper as sulphate +5 H2O
pH 5.5 aprx.

In the first solutions with sodium thiosulfate and copper sulfate or silver chloride sulfide was formed of these metals.
Probably under certain conditions in a solution of sodium thiosulfate ion is produced sulfide and sulfides of these metals such conditions might be pH or ORP (redox potential).
In this solution is not precipitated copper sulfide and gold is dissolved obtained by precipitation with sodium metabisulfite.
The acid pH of the formulation occurs metabisulfite.
I the amount of ammonia added to present a similar balance of ammonium thiosulfate.
In the case of cyanide is possible to increase the speed of dissolution of gold by hydrogen peroxide but thiosulfate solutions is difficult to achieve since the conditions required for the reaction are very limited.

Example of solution of gold cyanide:

1 200cc beaker
3 g of sodium cyanide
50 cc of water
0.02 grs of gold precipitated with sodium metabisulfite

When carefully add a few drops of hydrogen peroxide of 10 v/v can see the dissolution of gold with great speed.
Thiosulfate have not yet obtained the information to increase the speed of dissolution.
Found in published papers, as noted 10 hrs dissolution times but do not indicate the size of the particles of gold.
Sorry for the translation from Spanish.


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## renatomerino

Hi butcher:
On this site:
http://www.ejmpep.com/rath_et.al.pdf
Is a summary that allows to prepare a solution of sodium thiosulfate using thiosulphate, ammonia and copper.
The interesting thing that gives values ​​of thiosulfate, ammonia and copper, which responds to the doubts that may have.
I prepared a solution with:

Sodium thiosulphate (Na2S2O3•5H2O)
0.4 M (S2O3)-2 >> PM Na2S2O3+5H2O=248
>> PI S2O3=112 >> % =45.16 Thiosulfate ion
0.4x112=44.8 >> 44.8/0.4516=99.2 grs Na2S2O3

Ammonia water (25%NH3)
2 M NH3 >> PM NH3 = 17
>> 17x2= 34/0.25 = 136 cc NH3

Cupric sulphate (CuSO4•5H2O) 
0.0001 M Cu >> PM CuSO4+5H2O= 249.5
>> P Cu=63.6 >> % =25.49 >> 0.0001x63.6=0.00636
0.00636/0.2549=0.02495 grs CuSO4+5H2O

Water
To make 1000 cc.

This solution dissolved in 6 hours a gold precipitate obtained with metabisulphite,I hope to complete with photos.
I believe that this solution can be done dissolution testing.
Then you could continue with auriferous minerals.
I hope your comments to improve the matter.


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## butcher

renatomerino,

I like your approach of study and experimenting, the powders are fine, would they be about what size the gold would be in ore?

And as we know the ore will also change the chemistry of the solution, but by your experimenting with a more pure gold, and preparing a base line for the latter experiments, I feel you are taking a well-planned scientific approach to this study.

it will also be interesting if you experiment with different ore samples later with known contents of gold, maybe some of the members who have samples of ore can help you out and send you a few rocks later, when you get to that stage.

Very interesting please do keep the forum posted of your results.

I really cannot give any advice, but I am very interested in following your work in this.

Most of the papers I read about this leaching process seem to be studies (looking for alternative to cyanide), and in the lab they do seem to have good results, have you read anything of the use of this in the gold fields? And the results they are getting? Any of the bigger gold mines in my area do not use leaching as they only get the free gold with mechanical means, although there are shipments of black sands and ore going to other counties like china, I am not sure how they recovering the values there, or what type of leaching they use. 

Keep up the good work.


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## renatomerino

butcher:
It is possible that someone could repeat the test?.
This is a test solution of gold with thiosulfate solution type.
I prepared a solution with:
20 g Na2S2O3 + 5 H2O
0.05 g CuSO4 + 5H2O
0.01 g Na4EDTA 
3 cc NH3 20% + 3cc NH3 20%
200 cc Water
pH 9
To this solution I added 0.4 grams of gold precipitate obtained from a gold chloride solution with sodium citrate.
The precipitate of gold I have screening through 325 mesh before placing in the solution of thiosulfate.
In 48 hours it has dissolved about 0.3 g.
The amounts of reagents are very high and I think it is possible to download all concentrations proportionately.
The leaching operation that I do use concentrations of 30 g/L of NaCN equivalent to 60 g / L of Na2S2O3 + 5H2O.
I added 2 times NH3 because I have a atmospheric pressure of 490 mmHg.
Surely the time it takes to dissolve gold is due to the particle size which is about 0.04mm.
The test is being performed in an open beaker without agitation.


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## butcher

I do not see air or oxygen involved are you bubbling air into solution?, I really do not know much about the leach, but I thought oxygen played a role.

What is the purpose of Na4EDTA?

from what I understand the leach is normally slow, but I thought they got 90-95% gold dissolution in ore, being you do not have the ore involved to effect or change the chemistry of the solution, your leach values seem a bit low (about 75% of gold leached).

Renatomerino,

I really do not know if I can help with this, but I do wish you to keep us informed on your progress, it is fascinating, and the experimentation you are working on would be an invaluable tool for anyone working with this leach.

A thought and I do not know if is worth anything:

This Thiosulfate leach is dependent on the copper sulfate acting as a catalyst as far as I understand and the ammonia in solution regenerates for lack of better term the thiosulfate, and forms alkaline copper ammines for catalyst for gold dissolution, (again if I understand).
Can you tell by color of solution what the copper is doing? Copper thiosulfate, copper ammines, or what ever, is this masked by gold or other solutions?

Sorry I can not be any help, I would have to learn much more first.

keep up the good work.


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## renatomerino

butcher
Your comments are important as well as other forum members which enriquese us all.
You can use oxygen in the leaching with thiosulfate but for this via the decomposition of this reagent is important to producing sulfate.
I think the gold solution is favored in an ammoniacal medium intermediate form after gold thiosulfate.
The oxidation of gold is achieved that through Cu +2 dissolved in ammoniacal medium is reduced to Cu +1 and gold is oxidized to Au +1 Au probably.
The Na4EDTA is a scavenger of copper to prevent the decomposition of thiosulfate.
The dissolution of gold with thiosulfate is faster than cyanide and lack a test of leaching with agitation.
Dr. Poe said in a recent message that it is possible to form thiosulfate, heating a solution of sodium hydroxide with sulfur.
Look for patents on the subject and prepare 500 ml of a solution with 40 g of NaOH and 28 grams of sulfur, warm to 89 ° C for one hour and filter.
Then use the same dosage above and the results are similar.
Carries out, slag leaching tests with thiosulfate in similar concentrations.
The gold in the thiosulfate solution I precipitated with fine steel wool.
I invite everyone to duplicate the tests and publish the results.


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## AztekShine

Renatomerino, 

I am considering this process in my next experiment. Thank you for all of your input on this topic. It is much apreciated!

Will


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## renatomerino

Hi butcher:
I have continued leaching tests with thiosulfate to the quantities of reagents indicated and a gold concentrate of 1000 g/ton.
I noticed that with an agitation of 500 rpm evaporates or moves the ammonia with air or oxygen injected into the pulp.
I think it is important to control the pH close to 9.
In my particular case the increase of the concentration of gold in solution takes place for 2 hours then stops. This coincides with decreasing pH.
For this reason I am correcting the pH and the solution continuously.
In short my gold concentration in solution is currently 0.3 g / l for 50% pulp solids and froth flotation concentrate of 1000 g/ton.
It is likely that I can reach a solution significant considering the above.
It is likely that some experiences with thiosulfate leaching carried out in sealed agitators for this reason.


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## butcher

Renatomerino,
I enjoy discussing this leaching process with you, as it helps me learn, I also like the fact you report your results from your process as it helps all of us.

I have no experience with the thiosulfate leach, besides reading, and my understanding of it is very limited, although I would like to learn as much as possible about it.

Also I cannot say I understand as much as I read, as it sometimes seems they use a language I am also learning.

From looking at the equations in the document lined below, if I understand them correctly.

Gold oxidizes in this caustic solution with high volumes of air/oxygen to gold hydroxides.
Gold oxidation in the presence of ammonia, and oxygen to form gold ammine complex.

Gold oxidation in the presence of oxygen and thiosulfate to form gold thiosulfate complex’s.

Oxidation by oxygen
Au +0.25O2 + OH- + O.5 H2O --> Au(OH) 2
Au + 0.25 O2 + 2NH3 + 0.5 H20 --> Au(NH3)2 + OH-
Au + 0.25O2+ 2S2O3+ 0.5H2O --> Au(S2O3 )2 + OH-

These reactions above, I believe are only part of the reactions involved, and air injection also helps to agitate the ore and solutions, assisting in the reaction.

Copper solutions are also a big part of the reactions as the copper in ammonium solutions is the catalyst that helps to put gold into solution as a thiosulfate complex.


Notice in the reactions below, most of them ammonia evolves from leach, I believe this to be part of the process as gold forms thiosulfate complex with ore, this ammonia would need replaced for the reaction to proceed, (I do not know if it can be contained in solution)

Oxidation by copper (II)

Au + Cu(NH3)4 --> Au(NH3)2+ Cu(NH3)2 
(Here both form diammine compounds)

Au + 2S2O3 + Cu(NH3)4 --> Au(S2O3)2 + Cu(NH3)2 + 2NH3 
(Here gold thiosulfate forms, copper ammine and ammonia)

Au + 5S2O3+ Cu(NH3)4 --> Au(S2O3)2+ Cu(S2O3)3+ 4NH3 ********
(Gold in thiosulfate solution, copper thiosulfate and ammonia gas)


Au + 2S2O3 + Cu(OH)2 --> Au(S2O3)2+ Cu(OH)
(Notice hydroxide of copper and gold thiosulfate)

Au + 2OH- + Cu(OH)2 --> Au(OH)2+ Cu(OH)2

Au + 5S2O3+ Cu(OH)2 à Au(S2O3)2+ Cu(S2O3)3+ 2OH- *********
(Gold in solution, and copper formed thiosulfate complex and freed hydroxides)

Disproportionate of gold (I)
3Au(I)(NH3)2 --> 2Au + Au(III)(NH3)4+ 2NH3 

I also believe if pH was allowed to get towards acidic gold would precipitate back int the leaching solutions.


This seems to be a very complicated leach, and keeping ammonium and copper complexes in balance would seem extremely difficult to me, If these could be monitored easily it would should help, but this leach to me looks like trying to walk on a tight rope with a big monkey on your back pulling on your hair,
Look like it would be very difficult to maintain a balance in this leach.

Equations are from this document:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/51787642774g1020/fulltext.pdf


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## renatomerino

Butcher:
Thanks for the article of Gold Bulletin.
According to everything we have studied, I prefer to think that the solution of gold in thiosulfate solutions using copper and ammonia is mainly due to the latter using copper as the oxidant.
The amount of ammonia used is sufficient to produce the amide of copper in addition to allowing a exedente dissolve gold.
They are interesting patents: US5308381, US5114687.
The solution of gold with ammonia requires high pressures and closed reactors to prevent volatilization.
In the case of ammonium thiosulfate solutions can better manage the gold solution with ammonia.
It seems important to your opinion and other members of the forum.


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## Ferrell

Does anyone know what the ORP should be reading for thiosulphate leach?


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## Ferrell

We've been doing a lot of research on thiosulphate leach and it appears the ORP needs to be in the 150-200 range for it to work. The problem we're finding is that thiosulphate leach (when mixed according to the patent or what has been recommended on this forum) ends up in an ORP range of about 45-65....and adding ammonia to get the pH up to at least 8 (recommended it be from 8-10) drops the ORP lower, it doesn't raise it. 

Any suggestions on this? Have any of you using this leach been checking the ORP value or just the pH? Any ideas how to get the ORP value up where it should be without dropping the pH to the basement? It seems they go the opposite direction from the experimenting we're doing.


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## butcher

Ferrell, this is beyond my understanding, so what I say here is speculation and just a guess.

Being unfamiliar with the caustic leach, I will speak of an acidic leach here.

from what I understand the ORP oxidation reduction potential is jut a millivolt reading using a circuit with reference probes to get an idea of the oxidation or reduction potential of the solution (basically how well the electrons can oxidize or reduce in solution), depending on the type of solution.

from my understanding (I will use chlorine here I have a little more familiarity with), chlorine in solution is somewhat basic, when we get it in an acidic solution we form gas of chlorine in solution, this is what dissolved the gold the chlorine oxidizing the gold and forming a metal chloride from reaction of the oxidized gold with the HCl acid. 

So the bleach Chlorine (a base about pH 13), and an acid Hydrochloric acid (an acid about pH 0 to 1), would by themselves neutralize the solution to form a salt. not to mention the gold and the acid forming a gold salt in solution, at first addition of the small amount of chlorine we would in probability see a high ORP reading, but it would soon go down as the chlorine was used up or the chlorine gassed off, also as we added chlorine to this solution we raised the pH of the acid, just a tad closer towards the neutral on the scale. And as the chlorine is exhausted the ORP reading would come back down (not much potential for gold to loose many more electrons in this solution).

As pH goes up the millivolt reading of the ORP meter will go down, this is indicating the chlorine or oxidizer is not as effective. (I am thinking of chlorine in solution as an oxidizer here, not the thiosulfate leach you are working with), so in this case I can bring the pH down, or add more oxidizer chlorine to raise the ORP reading.

Although I may have this all messed up in my head, and if I do hopefully someone who understands this can straighten me out and help you also.


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## butcher

Will this help?


https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/40336/ubc_2012_spring_deutsch_jared.pdf?sequence=3


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## Ferrell

Thank you, butcher. I apologize, I thought I had my settings so I'd be notified if there was a reply but didn't get one, so assumed no one had replied. I just stopped by and saw both of your notes. I'll point them out to my husband when he gets home this evening. 

I thought this might be of interest. We had some old black precip from our last thiosulphate drop. We haven't had much luck putting it in a crucible with flux and pouring any gold. We were reading Action Mining's instructions with the leach they sell, saying it would give a black precip 'sludge' and it should be put directly into a cupel with lead or bismuth. So, I did just that yesterday. Took about 4-5 Tablespoons of the precip spread across a filter paper, folded to a small square and placed in a cupel with bismuth. I'm posting a pic of what I got. Looks like the thiosulphate hasn't been the problem, but the way we've tried to process the precip. I'm taking this little BB to a local jeweler tomorrow that specializes in determining gold content to see what we've got. Hoping it's decent.


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## Ferrell

This is a picture of what we got from the few tablespoons of thiosulphate precip that I mentioned in my last post. Couldn't get the photo to load last time. Hopefully it will now.


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## butcher

Ferrell, 
That is great, I know you and your husband have worked hard for that button of gold, maybe if you plant it back in the ground so it will grow more of them beauties, It will be nice to see you guys get the process to where things are working well for you, also please keep us informed we all learn from sharing.


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## Ferrell

Thanks, butcher. Now to figure out exactly what we did to arrive at this point. That was a very old batch we hadn't treated and unfortunately, wasn't labeled.  We've really been struggling with the entire process from leaching to refining and still have tons of questions and things we need to learn. I'm afraid it's been one step forward, three steps back most of the time. :roll:


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## butcher

One step forward and two backwards, that sounds like a dance, mining on small scale could be a very hard way to get a few pennies if your lucky, and can do it and not to mention the work involved.

I wish you and your Husband good luck, I know learning can be hard, and learning to work ore is really a challenge, also you could move mountains for very little or no gain, good luck.


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## solar_plasma

Dr. Poe said:


> If you remember that *to become an ion the element must become either a proton donor or an electron donor. * The gold in solution is a proton donor, the metallic iron is an electron donor. Electricity is not a flow of protons but of electrons. ....................
> Dr. Poe



Pardon me, but I feel like someone tells me the sky is not blue:

I do know only one kind of proton donor, an acid. That is quite the definition of an acid.

A metal cation like Na+ is not an acid and it is not an electron donator, but it is an ion.

Gold in solution CAN be a proton donor, an acid, IF it is in the form of an acid like chloroauric acid, H[AuCl4]

Electricity is a flow of *charges*,which CAN be electrons.

This is how I understand it. Please correct me, if I am wrong, it's quite important to me.


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## solar_plasma

Dr. Poe said:


> I guess the polarization of gold is too much to grasp for some. It's their insistence that gold must be reduced to a metallic in all cases. Their insistence that gold salts cannot be anionic and react like sulfur. Such stubbornness cannot be changed by reason and I don't intend to try anymore. I don't care if this thread is locked or not. I visit the forum to teach those that need my help, not to argue. Dr. Poe



Another thing that is contradicting, what I have been taught, what is written in school books and what I am teaching (maybe not incorrectly?) - Only metalloids and nonmetals can be cations or anions. Metals are always cations in ionic form.

Gold is a metal.

Please correct me.

Nevertheless this is a very informative and exciting thread and I will read it some more times.


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## Lou

Metals are not always cations, but for the purposes of most refining processes, they are.

Most metals form complexes in complexing acids; for instance [PtCl6]2- is an anionic complex.


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## solar_plasma

Lou said:


> Metals are not always cations, but for the purposes of most refining processes, they are.
> 
> Most metals form complexes in complexing acids; for instance PtCl62- is an anionic complex.



Yes ofcourse, but the Pt's themselves are still positive....just embedded in some negative ligands(right term?), the sum of all charges is negative, so it forms a molekyle which is negative outside. :?:

edit: Tonight I will read a lot in my Inorganic Chemistry by Holleman/Wiberg - got some learning-vectors


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## solar_plasma

solar_plasma said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you remember that *to become an ion the element must become either a proton donor or an electron donor. * The gold in solution is a proton donor, the metallic iron is an electron donor. Electricity is not a flow of protons but of electrons. ....................
> Dr. Poe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pardon me, but I feel like someone tells me the sky is not blue:
> 
> I do know only one kind of proton donor, an acid. That is quite the definition of an acid.
> 
> A metal cation like Na+ is not an acid and it is not an electron donator, but it is an ion.
> 
> Gold in solution CAN be a proton donor, an acid, IF it is in the form of an acid like chloroauric acid, H[AuCl4]
> 
> Electricity is a flow of *charges*,which CAN be electrons.
> 
> This is how I understand it. Please correct me, if I am wrong, it's quite important to me.
Click to expand...


Okay, I thought of so called Brönsted acids, which are defined as molekyles which can provide protons to H2O and form H3O-

while Poe obviously uses the definition of so called Lewis acids, examples are even metal cations. Then you can rightly say ions are proton donors or electron donors. Still I don't like the excluding, absolute wording, since it is only one model and can be seen in several ways.


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## Geo

Poe was antagonistic to everyone. if he had the chance to talk down to someone or take a jab at somebody, he would. he used convoluted arguments like he expected everyone to understand what he was talking about without having to explain to us "peons".


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## solar_plasma

I wonder how anyone can write his dissertation without being able to shift between paradigms, at least if someone has written it on his own. Obviously this is possible in the studies of geology. In any social science this is not possible, - you wouldn't even get your bachelor. :lol:


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## sasa123

Can someone please help me?
I used 100 g / l natrium thiosulfate, 8g / l natrium sulfate to black sand and electronic waste. It fantastic dissolves gold! With the help of electrolysis has the results but certainly not enough, and by dipping the steel wool does nothing, so please for your advice, is this a good solution for the refining of gold? And why is gold does not stick to the steel wire? I would like to avoid ammonia and ammonium thiosulfate. I did not touch Ph. 

Thanks in advance and greetings!


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## bswartzwelder

You joined 2 day ago and already you're trying what many would consider an advanced methodology. Have you read Hoke? Most any question you can come up with have already been answered on the forum. Use the search engine.

You will find out soon enough that the members here will not spoon feed you the answers. You must show a willingness to at least try to get the sandwers on your own. 

Good luck and welcome to the forum.


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## Mud Dobber

I am new to this forum. I have been studying the thio leaches for a few years and have learned a lot on this forum. I found a lab study done on this subject.. You may have seen this before, but I think you guys might should check this out....
http://www.ejmpep.com/rath_et.al.pdf


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## Geo

Mud Dobber said:


> I am new to this forum. I have been studying the thio leaches for a few years and have learned a lot on this forum. I found a lab study done on this subject.. You may have seen this before, but I think you guys might should check this out....
> http://www.ejmpep.com-rath_et.al



The link is broken.


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## Mud Dobber

Geo said:


> Mud Dobber said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am new to this forum. I have been studying the thio leaches for a few years and have learned a lot on this forum. I found a lab study done on this subject.. You may have seen this before, but I think you guys might should check this out....
> http://www.ejmpep.com-rath_et.al
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The link is broken.
Click to expand...



sorry, try it again..I left out pdf.. sometimes my brain seems broken..I put the link on thiosulfate duestions and discussion too

http://www.ejmpep.com/rath_et.al.pdf


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## chawimac

Ferrell said:


> It's almost impossible to catch this stuff on a filter (even a very tight, good quality one) as the precipitant is incredibly fine and goes right through until the filter eventually clogs. So we've been draining it off into a heavy glass container, hitting it with 10% hcl to clean, then following up with water to wash again. We let it settle, pour as much fluid off as possible, then slowly cook to dry.
> 
> Here's our questions;
> Does anyone have a better way of cleaning this product without losing it through a filter? Yes, we can repour the precipitant back through the filter once it clogs, but it's also so fine that it's almost impossible (once it totally dries) to scrape much off the filter. I suppose if we had 4 times the quantity at a time (and we will have once we start doing larger runs) we'll have a lot more on the filter, but that brings up another problem. The filter clogs somewhat fast and by the time there's a thin layer of precipitant on it, it's difficult to get more wash fluid to drain off. So, suggestions on washing, or is what we're doing good enough?



Donno if anyone really answered this question from years ago. I read this thread and maybe I missed in those 181 posts the answer, but I found it a great thread and thought I should contribute.

When you drop something super fine, it usually gets easier the bigger your experiment gets (at least in my opinion). The larger the amount of gold or whatever is precipitating, the greater the probability it clumps together and forms some sort of mass at the bottom of the barrel. What I do, is let it sit for a while (an hour or overnight) and let the reaction finish. As the particles drop they should clump. Care should be taken that things do not re-suspend in solution and that contaminants prevent the dropped particles to gravitate to the bottom (like lead gel or such).

If your chemistry is right things should pretty much happen as I explain, usually. An great option is to siphon you vessel or barrel, and wash your precipitant before the final filtering. Siphoning helps as you reduce volume needed to filter and you get less particles to clog your filter and you are able to remove the majority of liquid before the solids come and clog things up. This is basically the most important advice I can give. Let things settle, siphon, wash, let settle and repeat until final filtering.

Finally, get the right equipment if you can. See my equipment below. I started using pots and pans so been there done that, but the only true way to solve these problems is to use the right equipment and not cut corners. I moved up from coffee filters to a Italimpianti vacuum filter using about a 3 foot diameter filter paper. This filter changed my life, its awesome. You need enthusiasm or deep pockets to have a great experience. For me one lead to the other.


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