# Steel peek!?



## Mmon2616 (Jul 16, 2014)

Sneak peek of silver cell at about 1.5hr. Being a newb I'm sure I can't see what the most experienced can see from this one pic. This is what makes refining so amazing. I know enough to know that my knowledge is lacking. My dad always said "if you know a lot say nothing." If you know nothing , ask questions , then say nothing. " I tend to know nothing then when I ask I then say something. I have learned that on this forum the only way to learn is to say nothing before you research the question. Thanks for ignoring me or trying to lead me in the right direction. I will keep doing what I do as you do the same. Hope everyone is well.

Sincerely
Michael


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## Mmon2616 (Jul 16, 2014)

Picture looks bad. I apologize. Took it with phone.


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## Palladium (Jul 16, 2014)

The weave (micron size) of that filter bag looks mighty big. What are you using for the filter material?


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## Harold_V (Jul 17, 2014)

Mmon2616 said:


> I have learned that on this forum the only way to learn is to say nothing before you research the question. Thanks for ignoring me or trying to lead me in the right direction. I will keep doing what I do as you do the same.


Hmmmm. Maybe I didn't get the gist of your comment(s), but if I did ----the message you should have learned from the attitude on this board is we help those who help themselves. If we were to hand feed everyone who comes here, we'd never get past the basics, which is the very reason why you, as well as all readers, are instructed to read Hoke's book (for the basics), then to search the forum for answers to questions that arise. The very fact that you study Hoke's book until you understand what it teaches will reveal to you that you can now answer many of those questions yourself. 

Beyond that---trust me-----there's not one damned thing that you can ask that hasn't been asked already, and likely many times. That's why we demand you do some work on your own, so we don't have to answer the same questions day in and day out. 

And----do use wisdom when posting comments as you just did. I can take offense easily, especially the part about keeping silent once one has gained knowledge. Here, we share knowledge, and show respect for those who have so generously shared what they have learned, often at great expense of time and error. If I get the slightest idea that a reader, here, is willing to take endlessly, all the while giving nothing in return, I fully expect said reader is not going to enjoy the board for long. I simply won't tolerate that kind of an attitude. 

Seems to me, many, today, have an entitlement attitude about being owed that which they have not earned. Remember---none of us owe you, or anyone, anything, aside from the common respect we should show others in the pursuit of our daily lives. 

Got it?

In regards to your silver cell, if I'm seeing small holes, you're not going to like the end result of your efforts. It is important that a filter in a silver cell be capable of holding back the smallest of solids, so they don't comingle with the resulting silver crystals. 

If you are parting material with no precious metals included, beyond silver, you most likely won't have any issues, as the vast majority of contaminants will manifest themselves as liquids, and end up in the electrolyte, but not all will. Any traces of values (platinum, gold, palladium) will be found as black slimes, which will readily spill from your basket and contaminate the silver. 

Harold


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## Mmon2616 (Jul 22, 2014)

Harold, my intentions were to thank the people that ignored certain questions so that I would do the proper research to gain the knowledge needed to pursue my intended results. Never did I mean to offend you or anyone else that may be sensitive to the issue at hand. I am here to learn whether band as mom or not I will still gain as much knowledge from this forum as I intend. I never meant to offend anyone when I first joined nor will I mean to offend anyone in the future. I have learned a lot and have started a business in this field because of things I have learned from this forum. For that I am forever in debt to you all. I appreciate every sentence, every word and, every picture anyone has posted to share with us. I may not be the best at expressing how and what I want to learn bit the last thing I will ever ask is for someone to hand feed me. I hope you got it. I am a genuinely nice guy with 5 kids and one step daughter that only hopes to be able to support my children as many on this forum do by recovery and refining. Like I said I may not speak the way you speak, act the way you act, think the way you think, but I have the same goal and it's to live a great life , learn as much as I can, have as much fun while supporting my family, and help others learn from my mistakes. ( which I have made many, including here). So please don't get my motives confused. If I offend you or anyone I am sincerely sorry and I will try harder in the future. As you said reading Hokes book until you understand is the proper way to go about it and I completely understand why you say that. This is why I read "THE BOOK" daily. I think most people have learned more from things people say than the things they did. That way my point from the people that have ignored. I hope you understand and hope to continue as mmon2616. I wish you and your family the best. 



Thanks Again
Michael / M6


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## Mmon2616 (Jul 22, 2014)

As for my filter bag. The holes look big but are not open. I also have another filter inside. Also the electrolyte is pure silver nitrate. The problem I'm having the crystals grow uniform all around the bowl. This is my small unit. I have a larger one being fabricated. 

I have seen people mention thiosulfate bags and a couple other anode bags. Any recommendations Harold? 

The amperage I was using in that picture varied from .8 - 10.

The amperage I am using on the picture I am attaching to this post is varying from .5-2.5. I know you guys are pros and I'm just a newb so any input or criticism is greatly appreciated. 


Thanks a Bunch
Michael


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## butcher (Jul 22, 2014)

Michael,
Those are very pretty silver crystals.
I have watched you progress, on the silver projects you have been working on, and I can see where you have put a lot of time in study into these projects, it looks to me like your hard work is paying off, in those beautiful crystals.

"I have seen people mention thiosulfate bags and a couple other anode bags."
I am confused by the Thiosulfate Bags?
Are you talking about filters to filter a thiosulfate solution through bags or filters?


Or are you trying to ask about what type of a filter material would be best to use in a silver cell, like muslin cloth or chemical resistant material like the polypropylene cloth material type cloths (made into a bag), to use as anode filters or bags, where metal ions can pass, or flow through the filter or bag, and the bag /cloth filter holds back the insoluble metal powders as the anode slime?

I think you have the same problem I do, of knowing how to say things, or how ask the questions, which can lead to confusion for others of what your trying to say.
Or of knowing the right words to use when searching for answers to your questions, which can help you find what your searching for.

I can see where you have been working hard, and doing a lot of study, I can also see you now understand more why we pushed you to study, and the benefits gained from the study, and how you will learn much more from it than from asking a few thousand questions.

Part of trying to find the answer to your questions while searching is learning how to ask the right questions, or learning how to phrase the questions better, to get the answers your looking for, or using the right or better keywords in your search, like learning the right words to use in an index of a book to find the right page, of the information you seek.


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## Harold_V (Jul 23, 2014)

Mmon2616 said:


> As for my filter bag. The holes look big but are not open. I also have another filter inside.


So long as the slimes can't penetrate, all is good! The only precaution beyond that might be that a bag made of a material that is too dense may not perform well. The first material I tried (about three times as heavy as typical canvas) was pretty much useless. I ended up using a filter material with fuzz on one side, about half the thickness of the one mentioned. The fuzz went towards the inside of the anode basket. It held the finest of particulate matter, and allowed easy transfer of the silver. 



> Also the electrolyte is pure silver nitrate.


I also started my silver cell with pure silver nitrate. The copper that alters the deposit will accumulate fast enough. The only problem I noticed by doing so is that the initial deposit was often securely attached to the cell. It was removed by scraping (with a fiber glass scraper). As the copper content rises, you should find that the crystals are less securely anchored, so they harvest easier. 



> The problem I'm having the crystals grow uniform all around the bowl.


That is to be expected. If you wish to prevent crystals from growing in a particular area, it must not conduct, nor should it react with the electrolyte. I used to use a layer of 4" wide vinyl tape on the sides of my cell, to prevent growth, without which there was rapid shorting of the anode. 



> I have seen people mention thiosulfate bags and a couple other anode bags. Any recommendations Harold?


I am unaware of thiosulfate bags. See my first comment, above, in regards to the material I used to use. It was purchased from a company that sells filter materials for filter presses, so you should be able to duplicate fairly easily, assuming you have reason to change. If you are satisfied with what you have, there may not be need.

Amperage is generally set by the area of the anode. My memory is not good, but I seem to recall that 25 amps/square foot is typical. I ran my cell lower, so I had better control over my sleeping hours. My cell ran round the clock, often for months on end. 

Harold


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## Palladium (Jul 23, 2014)

How much silver did you use to start off with in your electrolyte? Are you using shot or bars to feed it. From the bottom of the basket to the bottom of the cell is it an equal distance as from the side of the basket to the side of the cell?


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## maynman1751 (Jul 23, 2014)

> From the bottom of the basket to the bottom of the cell is it an equal distance as from the side of the basket to the side of the cell?



Ralph, please, why is this important? I am trying my first cell and am experiencing minor difficulties. Thanks, John.


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## Palladium (Jul 23, 2014)

Don't know how to explain it in science terms, but i can tell you in layman's terms. Theirs something about using the whole bowl as a cathode that can cause the deposits to become unbalanced in terms of thickness from one spot to the next. All i can attribute this to is the resistance of the stainless and the distance that the current must travel through the metal. The reason i use a bowl is because with the curvature of the bowl the distance from the center of the bowl or the center of your basket to the sides and bottom are equally spaced. When i tried using a square stainless object i ran into problems. Harold run a square silver cell. Harold did you even notice any deposit differences using a square configuration? Both of our cell designs incorporate the whole cell walls as a cathode area. Once the deposit gets off balance in the cell that certain area will start to build more than the others. The longer the cell runs the more the imbalance starts to grow trees in these areas. First it starts of as little nodes and from their they grow outwards toward the anode. Several things can influence it even more like the voltage, electrolyte concentrations, heat, and the positioning of the anode in reference to the cathode. I've heard Chris talk about spacing and current densities so i know it must play a part here.


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## Harold_V (Jul 24, 2014)

Palladium said:


> Harold did you even notice any deposit differences using a square configuration?


Not of any consequence, although with further explanation.

The front and rear sides of my cell were parallel (dead vertical), within 3/4" of the anode. It took very little time for crystals to grow from the sides to the anode, creating a short circuit. To resolve that issue, I applied two strips of 4" wide vinyl electrical tape on both internal faces. The tape was applied nearly to the bottom, and above the electrolyte line, so both faces were isolated electrically. It appeared to be inert, as it was never replaced. That solved the bridging of crystals, ending the shorting problems. 

On that subject, it's very important that the cell not short, as a risk of perforating the filter bag (by arcing) is quite real--resulting in contamination of the entire lot. That was a lesson hard learned. 

The two other ends of the cell were at an incline (maybe 30°). If memory serves, silver was deposited rather uniformly (where exposed to electrolyte), even at the extreme ends, which were not all that much farther away than the bottom of the cell. I fully expect that because of the conductivity of the electrolyte, silver should (and will) deposit relatively uniformly, although, as has been alluded, individual crystals tend to grow, extending rapidly towards the anode. 

The best policy is to knock down the crystals on a regular basis, regardless of how they deposit. Also, while I never started with copper in my electrolyte (it is rapidly deposited by the anode, anyway), the initial deposits of silver will dislodge without issue if one uses copper in the makeup of the electrolyte. However, the results I achieved, and it was consistent, was that the silver first deposited, prior to copper accumulating, was solidly affixed to the cell. It often came off in a sheet, and came off only with some difficulty. Still, I preferred that to experiencing a reduced recovery of silver, as I replaced the entire lot of electrolyte when the copper content rose above acceptable limits. 

In regards to individual crystals forming--one of the nicer (and larger) crystals I grew developed away from the anode. Mind you, none of my crystals were huge. An old friend, now deceased, was growing some weighing greater than an ounce each. Here's a picture of a couple he gave me. I've posted it before, but long ago. 

No, I don't know the secret to his success. I wish I did. 

Harold


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## maynman1751 (Jul 24, 2014)

Thank You Ralph and Harold for your explanations. Beautiful crystals Harold. I too wish I knew how that was done!


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