# looking for a best approach or technics for........



## Anonymous (Nov 17, 2007)

first of all i am new here( if you dont count following posts a week or so) and this is my first post. i guess as most of the people here we all appreciate for free info. and especially some of contributers( even i am new here after reading couple of posts we probably all know who they are , right laser :wink: )
i dont think this equation wouldnt be wrong:
H2+CG+L3 ----->%90 OF THE FORUM

Note: H stands for harold, did you guess the others 
ooops i have forgot the N , my bad 

ok, back to the bussiness, i have added a picture which my question is related. this is the casting left overs, miscast items and collected alloys(no gold plated items here all solid) i guess i can call these karat gold.it all weighs 175 gram and and i know for sure they have %50-60 gold(at least ) , %1-5 platinum , %5-10 palladium and %5-10 silver. rest of the ingredients are mostly nickel,chromium,cobalt. there are very little ir,in,rt,se...etc. 

anyway, i want to refine them( and i want to get all precious metals from this batch, i just wanna taste the experience) i would highly appreciate if you show me the way step by step using only( if possible) with items i can buy from local stores (like home depot or walmart) i am guessing you will suggest aqua regia but problem with that nitric acid and i dont think i can buy this from a home depot ,right? i checked many posts here but most of them for electronic scraps not many for karat refining. 

are there any other technics for refining karat golds other than AR.( for example can i use drain cleaner and glycerin mix or clorox and HCL mix)

so looks like i dont have much option here but AR. lets say i will have to do with AR refining, should i treat these with nitric acid first or i should put directly in AR solution? 
if you can let me know orderly which metal first i should go for and what technics and materials i should use. 

my thanks advanced,hopefully when i succesfully refine these i would like to make some contributions to the site 8)


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 17, 2007)

Actually, 43%.


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## aflacglobal (Nov 17, 2007)

43 %.

Dam, is that all you could find in all that chris ?

You'll have to excuse chris, he has this human calculator thing he does. But he does it so well. :wink: 

Welcome to the forum.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 17, 2007)

Add an A and have 51%.

You have quite a bit of money here - between $2400 and $3300. Your lot is interesting to me because it has significant amounts of all 4 of the common precious metals. It is a classic batch of material. If you really want to learn, you have a perfect opportunity to learn everything in this one lot.

Where does the chrome and cobalt come from? White dental material? It sounds like your scrap is dental, by looking at the breakdown.

I would definitely use hot aqua regia, with real nitric acid. If the silver is below 10%, it alone should dissolve most everything. I wouldn't use an initial nitric leach because it will divide up the Pt and Pd. Because of the silver, some of the Pt will dissolve, but most of it will remain undissolved. With Pd, it is the opposite. The aqua regia will dissolve everything except silver, quickly, in one stroke.

Maybe you could use HCl/Cl2 or HCl/H2O2 but, the going is slow and complete dissolving is iffy. I think you have the best chance of getting it ALL, with the least problems, by using aqua regia. 

The sulfuric may or may not work. The more base metals, the more this system bogs down. There are from 15% to 39% base metals in your material. This is probably too high for the sulfuric process. Also, it could split up your metals.

Everything you need to know about aqua regia is detailed on this forum. Use Harold's methods. They always work if you follow him completely.


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## Harold_V (Nov 18, 2007)

I agree with GSP-----use nitric acid and prepare proper AR for values of this nature. I would also recommend evaporating the chloride solution-----I would not use urea. I would process the entire lot as a unit (unless you have reasons otherwise) ----but-----I'd inquart and separate the silver, palladium and what ever platinum that would dissolve prior to dissolving the gold. I used that procedure (for years) regardless of the nature of the alloy in question, if for no other reason, it works, and works well, every time. I'll toss out some thoughts in no particular order, for your perusal.

Inquarting (properly) guarantees that all of the metal will go in to solution without a struggle. There are drawbacks, including the platinum group metals ending up in your silver, assuming it is recovered on copper. That forces you to make a recovery of the Pt group metals by parting the silver in a silver cell. It can be tied up for a prolonged period of time by this method, but that's an excellent savings plan. 

It's hard to get clean gold from solutions that have the platinum group combined with them, and difficult to wash them out after precipitation. Palladium, in particular, loves to hitch a ride with gold. By inquarting, they are vastly reduced. 

Consider that eliminating the base metals, as much as is possible, before dissolving the gold and remaining platinum is the best way to go as far as (gold) quality is concerned. Inquartation gets the nod for that reason. 

In truth, there is no perfect way to deal with alloys of this nature---each presents its own set of problems. Direct dissolution with AR can be troublesome if the silver content is too high-----and the resulting silver chloride, regardless of level of concentration of silver, will be heavily contaminated with values. Once you combine silver with the platinum group, it's difficult to separate them chemically. 

Hope some of these thoughts help. Pick your pony and enjoy the ride!

One word of advice. If you have never processed gold, DO NOT START with this batch of material. Start small with a sample until refining makes sense. Could save you a great deal of grief. 

Harold


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## aflacglobal (Nov 19, 2007)

Like Harold said, That's a lot of money to be learning with.
Experiment with the process first.


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## Noxx (Nov 19, 2007)

In fact, the «N» counts for 10% lol :lol:


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## Anonymous (Nov 19, 2007)

ty for the answers
yes gsp you guessed it right,they are dental left over scraps ,which i casted %90 of them. and i aggree i probably need to start with small amount of these.
someone suggested to use harold's AR formula, where can i get that( anyone can give me a link) 

and what about nitric acid issue( where can i get that , i am guessing they dont sell this on local stores, right? and i also heard it is not cheap) if i remember corectly i saw somewhere here to make your own?( once again link would be very helpfull)

and lets say i got all the materials needed for AR, and i know silver is less than %10 and i would say% 25-30 (max) nickel, chromium and cobalt.
so 1-should i put these in hot AR or room temp.? 
2-and after they all dissolve which metal i should precipitate orderly (first metal to last) with using which precipitants for each PM.

YOU KNOW WHAT, lets forget all these questions, let me ask you this,how would you refine this batch orderly if you wanna get all the PMs?( i should ask this at the first place)please detail answer

once again thanks advanced

by the way , i think chemical forum equation when i did on my earlier post , obviously i forgot cataliysts' symbols, apologies to spark plugs  
but with or without them ratio still unchanged %10 rookies :twisted: 

question just came to me, is it possible to refine this batch using cell?(or are you able to refine karat gold with cell)
wait wait there is one more :arrow: is there a way to refine these without using nitric acid( i know i am asking too many ? but i like shortcuts instead of reading so many posts ,i like straight questions and straight answers) yes you guessed it right again, i am not gay 8) (which nothing wrong with that) god, jerry seinfield all over again 

PS. if you have any dental related :?: I am your man  ( nothing like emoticon with bleached snow white teeth)


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## Harold_V (Nov 20, 2007)

wtf said:


> ty for the answers
> yes gsp you guessed it right,they are dental left over scraps ,which i casted %90 of them. and i aggree i probably need to start with small amount of these.
> someone suggested to use harold's AR formula, where can i get that( anyone can give me a link)



Do you have a copy of Hoke's book?

If not, why not?

Please do yourself a favor and put this project on the back burner until you either understand the process, or until you have a copy of the book in question. It has specific instructions with outstanding explanations that will help you understand the methods that will serve you best. It will also teach you about proper testing, the making of standard solutions, and other information that you must know and understand before you can refine with confidence. 

"Harold's AR formula" isn't Harold's at all. I give full credit to Hoke. She is the one that put in print that which allowed me to learn gold refining. The only thing I've added to her knowledge is an addition to her method for washing the precipitated gold, and it appears to be an improvement. 

In regards to nitric acid, yes, it is difficult to buy----but it's only expensive because they can get the money ("they" being the repackagers). They have you over a barrel, and they know it. Purchased through proper channels, in volume, it should be obtainable for around $5/gallon, perhaps less. It will be difficult to make that kind of deal-----so you may very well end up paying anywhere from $30 to $80/gallon, assuming you can, indeed, buy it. It is very tightly controlled. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Nov 20, 2007)

:shock: , $5/galon and $30-80 it is not even close ,

Harold;

- where can i get Hoke's book ( or its copy )
- how much nitric acid do you think needed for this batch if you do all in once using AR.

i know i know i will not take a risk to start refining entire batch before learning all the AR basics and ancient chinese secrets 8)

once again another weird idea suddenly came to me just before sending the post, do you guys think we can use refining in poetry, even imagining is making me smile, anyone wanna give a shot , let me try 

there is nothing like a gold
if you doin silver dont forget your salt
not much platinum in hard discs
dont deal with acids if you dont know the basics

lol, i didnt intended to but these can be pretty good new genre lyrics , it may be called " refining rap music " :lol: :lol: :lol: try with rap music it goes very well,lol


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## Harold_V (Nov 21, 2007)

wtf said:


> - where can i get Hoke's book ( or its copy )



The Hoke book, "Refining Precious Metal Wastes," is available here for $74. Scroll down - fifth from the bottom.

http://www.ipmi.org/publications/index_non.cfm

(you can thank GSP for the link)



> - how much nitric acid do you think needed for this batch if you do all in once using AR.



A WAG-----a pint would likely run the lot, but the yield would likely need to be run a second time to bring up the quality. 

Get the book!

Harold


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