# Lazer Steve: "Why AP for Gold Foils?"



## nicknitro (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi all,

I repeatedly applaud the knowledge base provided by the gods of this Site, " you know who you guys are" LOL. Now I would like to dissect the mainstream technique presented for Gold foils/PC Card Fingers refining. 

Steve, I know you use the Acid Peroxide Method almost exclusively for finger plateing removal. I understand the process, and believe it to be very acceptable. However, I was wondering why you don't use a nitric solution to show the predominantly newbie viewers of this site the same process. Is it the economical factor of the AP being releatively cheaper and much more reusable? Or is it the safety factors involved in nitric MSDS? 

It just seems more straight forward in a very simple refining process as finger removal to use nitric. As in most newbie's AR attempts they end up dissolveing a percentage of the fingers into the AR solution from overages of the peroxide in the AR. Nitric will not dissolve gold by itself, "this is more for newbie, I know you know this" , and the only negative experiences i have had using this procedure was when I forgot when reusing a nitric solution that it was dirty I produced tin gel, and once a copper nitrate precip that was not filterable, but was easily removed with the subsequent HCL washes which would be incorporated in AP procedure as well. 

I look forward to your response. I did not cover too much of the MSDS factors involved for the newbie , so maybe you could expand there as well. 

Don't get me wrong Steve, I am not challengeing your method in anyway, I just wanted to create this topic to create options for the newbie, who "like myself", seem to find it harder to find HCL nowadays than Nitric. Damn patriot act. LOL I personally have been using a Nitric/Phosphoric acid blend for Concrete cleanup, and like I say I love the results. Nitric is generally quicker as it reacts directly with the copper base metals, whereas the AP has to build up the Copper II Chloride to etch the Gold Foils.

Thank you Steve,
Nick

P.S. Sorry I have been to cheap to buy your videos as of late, I plan to purchase a few for the procedures I lack the most experience in.


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## Harold_V (Apr 7, 2009)

If you don't mind, I'd like to comment on your post. 

The ideal method is to use nitric. That's how basic refining has been carried out in the past. The problem is, nitric acid is no longer readily available to the novice, and when it is, it's at a price that makes it prohibitive. For the record, I used to buy it in 55 gallon lots, paying just over $200 for the drum. I had my own stainless drum, which would be exchanged for a full one. That avoided the very high ($400 then) drum deposit.

Should anyone ask my advice on how to process gold wastes, nitric would be my first recommendation. My presence here on this forum has been difficult because of my background of using nothing but commercially prepared acids. It has been a very revealing experience to see alternate methods promoted, allowing the common guy to process e scrap without having to deal with the issues of procuring nitric. 

I'm sure Steve will have some interesting comments for you, but, believe me, he has provided a service to you that would be difficult to find anywhere else. Be thankful for him! :wink: 

Harold


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## semi-lucid (Apr 7, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> It has been a very revealing experience to see alternate methods promoted



It may be revealing to you, but it can be a bit overwhelming for a neophyte.

Holy cow! :shock: AP, Iodine, CN, :!: It's hard to know where to begin.

I have about come to the conclusion that the only way to start is to actually do some of the basic procedures in Hokes book, even if I have to pay too much for the nitric, and maybe even buy a little placer gold to play around with. It might not make any money, but the experience would serve as the foundation for the trial of other process's.



nicknitro said:


> I just wanted to create this topic to create options for the newbie, who "like myself", seem to find it harder to find HCL nowadays than Nitric. Damn patriot act. LOL



I thought HCL was readily available?

Regards.
John


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## Harold_V (Apr 7, 2009)

semi-lucid said:


> It may be revealing to you, but it can be a bit overwhelming for a neophyte.
> 
> Holy cow! :shock: AP, Iodine, CN, :!: It's hard to know where to begin.


I think it's important for you to understand that you will not learn these things quickly, especially if you do not have a chemical background. They come slowly, but they do come! Take it slowly and take baby steps, which will familiarize you with the reactions, and why you do the things you do when you do them. 



> I have about come to the conclusion that the only way to start is to actually do some of the basic procedures in Hokes book, even if I have to pay too much for the nitric, and maybe even buy a little placer gold to play around with. It might not make any money, but the experience would serve as the foundation for the trial of other process's.


I recommend that highly, but before you leap, make sure you're ready to process. Have the necessary testing solutions and understand what the reactions look like. If you'll prepare yourself that way, when you get started, you'll not be running blindly. All too many of these guys jump in without so much as stannous chloride at their disposal. 

I can't say it any clearer that this. That's akin to jumping in a car and setting out on a long journey when you can't see. 

Be patient----you will learn the ways of refining. If I could do it, anyone can. Remember, I was a horrible student, and have no formal education beyond high school. No courses in chemistry---none! I still managed to perfect the art of refining. Read Hoke!

Harold


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## Anonymous (Apr 7, 2009)

Hydrochloric is available at every hardware store in my area, so is sulfuric, you will have one heck of a time getting nitric though.

You can make your own nitric with sulfuric, takes a little bit of equipment or some good think arounds

I use a glass jar, long stemmed wine glass, and a much smaller gar.

put the glass jar in a tin can, put a few glass marbles in (the Jar)to hold the smaller jar off of the bottom of the big jar, add your sulfuric and nitrate, I use pottasium nitrate, then start heating, once you see the reaction start to fume, add the wine glass full of ice to the top with the stem inside the small jar, it is important that the mouth of the large jar be small enough to be sealed by the wine glass. your nitric will condense on the wine glass and drip into the smaller jar.

Also, use chemical gloves when retrieving the small jar full of nitric.

I always use straight battery acid, so I do not end up with fuming nitric,
and the water helps to catch the nitric as it distills off.

I should also add, this is for small quantities at a time, I do 2 fluid oz of battery acid and I always have a box of baking soda handy to neutalize everything PDQ, just in case.

Jim


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## Oz (Apr 7, 2009)

Jim,

That’s a neat backcountry distillation rig. A large margarita glass on a 2 liter beaker would probably bump up production a bit and allow a hand to fit into your large “jar” to safely remove the nitric. One clarification if I may, I would imagine you take the base off of the wine glass at the base of the stem.

Big thumbs up!


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## Platdigger (Apr 7, 2009)

Yea, nice "think around" Jim....


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## semi-lucid (Apr 7, 2009)

ok, This may be a stupid question. 

Why couldn't you use a retort?

John


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## Anonymous (Apr 7, 2009)

why not use a retort? short answer, I got outbid every time. long answer, I like to make stuff myself, I do not want to pay the cost of a real distillation rig, my way works for my needs.


Also, correct assumption on removing the bottom of the stem but leave the stem itself so the little drops run right down into the small jar.

jim


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## markqf1 (Apr 7, 2009)

If you bite the bullet and get the good stuff, it can be diluted down a bit.
The larger quantity you get , the better the price.
It's the transportation costs that kill you so, a local provider could drastically cut the overall prices.

Mark


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## Anonymous (Apr 7, 2009)

I dont even try to get gold anymore, I get a couple of oz of silver a month from electical parts at work, I do not need more.

Those that do and get get enough gold or plats to make it worth while, heck ya.

jim

I do not want anyone knowing that I baught nitric, I have already been on a list for a certain book that I purchased many years ago.


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## semi-lucid (Apr 8, 2009)

james122964 said:


> why not use a retort? short answer, I got outbid every time. long answer, I like to make stuff myself, I do not want to pay the cost of a real distillation rig, my way works for my needs.
> 
> jim



I actually like that answer. 

I haven't priced retorts, but from the equipment I have priced, it's easy to see that you can blow through a lot of money if you just start buying everything you want. Fortunately for me, I already have some equipment, such as a couple of nice hot plates. (I also have a really nice centrifuge, but I'm not sure if I would ever use it.)

When I read your post, I was interested in following your advice but then I started thinking "retort". I think your rig sounds cool, and if your getting the job done, more power to you. The part that seemed odd to me was that the nitric jar would get heated inside the other jar. I guess this doesn't hurt anything.

If I remember correctly, in another thread, you told me it was possile to break down copper nitrate to make nitric. I've been trying design a rig in my head ever since. How hot do you have to get the Cu(NO3)2 to break it down? 

Speaking of spending money on equipment. I posted a tread on pH meters and got no replies. Do most people on this forum use pH meters? Or is it stupid to even ask about such a basic piece of equipment?

Regards.
John


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## nicknitro (Apr 8, 2009)

Hmm, everyone but Steve LOL. I'm sure he's busy. Well thanks Harold, and I do appreciate every contributor's help here on the forum. If I was more able, I would deffinitely give back to it more. Alas.

Harold, I would love to find $4 a gallon commercial nitric Lol. 


As for HCL being readily available at any hardware store, I have tried many big and small name stores in my area and have had little luck, a lot of the concrete cleaners have been switched to Lye and when you do find a quality source for HCL, example I saw one was 16 dollars for a quart, OMG! I'm looking into a one I have seen called "Safe Acid" a safe alternative to muriatic it says, which I don't understand as it states "contains hydrocloric acid"? 

I just think it may be my area. I also thought HCL was one of the watchlist chemicals now with Patriot Act. Anyways I think I paid like 14 dollars for a gallon at Home Depot in the concrete section for my Nitric/Phosphoric mixed acid, and it does a heck of a job with foils. I wouldn't use it with other solutions say AR, I would make my own with Sulphuric and Sodium Nitrate, but it's pretty convenient.

Thanks all, and I still anticipate Steve's input. 

Nick :mrgreen:


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2009)

Nick, go to lowes paint department, they have both the Eco "safer" which is really just diluted :lol: , and the regular muratic acid which is in a bottle with a red label.

Also, if you can get sulfuric, sulfuric and table salt will make HCL just the same as sulfuric and nitrates make nitric.


I do not remember the decomposition temperature of copper nitrate, but you can use it will sulfuric to make nitric, then use the copper sulfate to leach tin, lead, iron, zinc, aluminum off of your scrap before treating with nitric to save nitric, just make sure and rinse away the copper precipate before useing nitric on the stuff.

jim


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2009)

When I read your post, I was interested in following your advice but then I started thinking "retort". I think your rig sounds cool, and if your getting the job done, more power to you. The part that seemed odd to me was that the nitric jar would get heated inside the other jar. I guess this doesn't hurt anything

The inner jar has very little contact with the bottom, so it does not get heat directly from the heat source, and it is cooled by the condensate dripping into it. The hot gases surrounding it although at a temperature that is high enough to vaporize the nitric do not transfer enough heat to overcome the heat of vaporization.

Jim


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## lazersteve (Apr 8, 2009)

Nick said:


> Steve, I know you use the Acid Peroxide Method almost exclusively for finger plating removal. I understand the process, and believe it to be very acceptable. However, I was wondering why you don't use a nitric solution to show the predominantly newbie viewers of this site the same process. Is it the economical factor of the AP being relatively cheaper and much more reusable? Or is it the safety factors involved in nitric MSDS?



Actually Nick, I use many methods to process my finger boards depending on the quality of the fingers and other factors.

Dilute nitric is great if you can afford it and if you can get your scrap for free or nearly so. The economy of nitric is one of it's major drawbacks. 

The second pitfall of using nitric is fume control. A lot of small scale hobbyists don't ever spend the time or money to build/buy a proper fume hood. Think about it, if members are having a tough time buying nitric, they most likely can't afford a fume hood either (no offense to anyone). 

Lastly, nitric forms metastannic acid, a gel like slime, with tin from escrap that is tough to deal with if you haven't followed good refining techniques as many members don't. AP doesn't form this by product and therefore those members who like to 'shortcut ' things will still get repeatable results.

On the plus side nitric is fast, works on many types of scrap, and also dissolves silver if any is present.

If you would like me to demonstrate a batch a fingers in nitric that sounds like a reasonable request to me. I feel it will give the members a view of the process, but I'm not certain they will ever use it due to the factors mentioned above. 

My initial point of view for AP was that it is accessible to nearly everyone, relatively safe, cheap, easy to reproduce, and reusable.

On the subject of Copper Nitrate electrolysis, I use this process regularly to dissolve sterling anodes and it works quite well. I use a crude sterling bar wrapped in a special acid proof cloth. I then apply the positive lead to the bar and the negative lead to a hardened graphite block suspended in a Tupperware container tipped over sideways to catch the base metals as they slough off of the graphite. I periodically scrape the graphite and empty the Tupperware when it is full of copper moss.

The voltage source is the same as the sulfuric cell. The silver will build up in the bottom of the tall beaker as the reaction proceeds. Some of the silver will remain in the solution. As the copper nitrate solution gets hot it will evaporate and needs to have more fresh copper nitrate solution added to keep the volume consistent.

Here's a thread on the subject:

Copper Nitrate Cell

Nick, I'm sorry for the delay response, I was swamped yesterday and didn't get to the forum much.


Steve


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## semi-lucid (Apr 8, 2009)

Jim

In a distillation rig for the the type of process you described, is it acceptable to use a silicone rubber gasket, or any plastic parts such as PTFE? (Teflon)

Assuming of course that the temperature limits were not exceeded.

John


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## leavemealone (Apr 8, 2009)

> As for HCL being readily available at any hardware store, I have tried many big and small name stores in my area and have had little luck


 
There is a local pool supply store near me called "pinch-a-penny" and I get it from there for around $4.50 a gallon.I used to get it from lowes and home depot,both carry it in 2 gallon quantities for $10.Hope this helps.


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2009)

semi-lucid said:


> Jim
> 
> In a distillation rig for the the type of process you described, is it acceptable to use a silicone rubber gasket, or any plastic parts such as PTFE? (Teflon)
> 
> ...



I had once considered putting telfon around the jar edge were it meets the wine glass and I suppose it would deep the seal better and maybe even make it like a vacuum distill, but to me it just not worth the effort because of the scale of my operation, also the condensing liquid pretty much keeps the gasses in.

Jim


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## shyknee (Apr 9, 2009)

nick 

i to use this nitric/phosphoric cleaner,from what i experienced when i ran out went to buy more guess what happened? that is wright they changed the chemistry same bottle 
so i franticly drove to other hardwares found 6 4liter jugs and purchased all 6
I guess this is going to happen down there when restock comes in don't get caught short
p s I like how fast it works even in the cold


noxx 
this brings me to my next question where can i get nitric in canada my supply has gone byebye

lou 
is the phosphoric in this mix what makes it work so fast im talking with out heat compared to A/P 
silver works great just as if it where just nitric


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## nicknitro (Apr 9, 2009)

Steve,

No problem, I appreciate your input on this topic. I figured cost and safety would be big issues, I just felt simplicity was a factor as well. I was unaware of the metastannic acid you mentioned. I believe this to be the same gel I combatted once, due to poor housekeeping. 

As for the demonstartion, I think you know the answer to this, everyone loves your informative videos. LOL

"LeaveMeAlone" Thanks for the advice, I have been anticipating Pool seasons coming soon LOL. I have seen retail stores though putting dedicated cameras to pool sections. I think we should all be more scared of Russia selling off some Nuclear subs for their light bills, but I am no expert on homeland security. LOL

Shyknee, I agree 100% :')

Gold1961, AR? I believe you will have a hard time keeping gold in solution if you only use AR. I believe that is the point of this forum, most people are lead here with hopes of poor mans AR reaping 100% recovery of gold from E-Crap , only to wind up with a batch of "witches brew" , no gold, and 5000 more questions than they started with. LOL No offense, but AR is mainly for final refining processes or Platinum.


Thanks again all for your input. You have opened many doors for all us newbies, and peaked interests for new topics "I'm sure" with the retort comments and such. "Still brain-buzzed from Steve's electrolysis with Cu nitrate " Can I ask what is the acid proof cloth is? Some inorganic material, perhaps fiberglass or asbestos? I'm still digesting it all LOL, be gentle.

Thanks again,
Nick


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2009)

gold 1961
We do not even want to start down this road. 

Jim


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## Oz (Apr 9, 2009)

Gold1961,

Because you are new to the forum I have no idea as to your proficiency in refining, you may be smarter than any of us. You had asked for feedback and did not like what you received. 

Your strategy of name calling only disrupts the forum with useless non-information. You will find it is not tolerated.

May I suggest that instead if you feel your technique of using AR on electronic scrap is superior to the methods being employed by other forum members that you outline your procedure in detail?

Tell us the type of scrap you are starting with and walk us through step by step to your finished product of .9995 gold. 

I think most here see many problems in using AR as a starting procedure on electronics. Show us how you have overcome the pitfalls.


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## aflacglobal (Apr 9, 2009)

gold1961 said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > gold1961 said:
> ...




:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## steveonmars (Apr 10, 2009)

leavemealone said:


> > As for HCL being readily available at any hardware store, I have tried many big and small name stores in my area and have had little luck
> 
> 
> 
> There is a local pool supply store near me called "pinch-a-penny" and I get it from there for around $4.50 a gallon.I used to get it from lowes and home depot,both carry it in 2 gallon quantities for $10.Hope this helps.



Just to get back to the HCL for a minute. It's sold in the pool section at Home Depot and comes in a cardboard box that contains two one gallon bottles of HCL. Don't look for gallon jugs, they come boxed up. I haven't bought any lately but the $10 price sounds about right.

Steve


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## steveonmars (Apr 10, 2009)

leavemealone said:


> > As for HCL being readily available at any hardware store, I have tried many big and small name stores in my area and have had little luck
> 
> 
> 
> There is a local pool supply store near me called "pinch-a-penny" and I get it from there for around $4.50 a gallon.I used to get it from lowes and home depot,both carry it in 2 gallon quantities for $10.Hope this helps.



Just to get back to the HCL for a minute. It's sold in the pool section at Home Depot and comes in a cardboard box that contains two one gallon bottles of HCL. Don't look for gallon jugs, they come boxed up. I haven't bought any lately but the $10 price sounds about right.

Steve


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## oldtimmer (Apr 10, 2009)

The muratic acid that is sold at home depot in the two one gallons is not as good a the pool supply. If I can remember correctly it is only about 8% and not the 30% from the pool supply. I tried some and it did not work very well. Works very slow. The pool supply that I get it from it is $4.23 per gallon. You also have a $1.00 deposit on the jug the first time. After that the jug is swapped out.


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## Oz (Apr 10, 2009)

The Home Depot stores around me sell it off of a pallet containing 1 gallon jugs. It is stored outside in the fenced in garden center near the pool chemicals but it is not intended for pools as it is not diluted. Many may miss it as they are looking inside in the masonry section.


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## glorycloud (Apr 10, 2009)

The Muratic acid we get at Home Depot is the 31.45% strength and there are two jugs per box.


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## nicknitro (Apr 20, 2009)

Hi all,

Just updateing an old post. I finally found some HCL. It was at a newer Lowes Store in the Paint department, by the acetone and paint thinners. 
6.98 a gallon, but they asked for my phone number? Kinda strange, as I went through the self checkout, and could of put any number in I wanted to.

Thanks again all,
Nick


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## jimdoc (Apr 20, 2009)

Nick,
A lot of stores ask for your phone number or zipcode as a way to
track peoples shopping habits. I don't think it was because of what
you were buying. Lowes is where I have been getting mine, but am
still looking for a cheaper source, as I think that is too much.Especially
if you buy alot, I doubt Lowes will give you a bulk discount. Home Depot near me used to sell a two gallon box for about $7.50, but then they stopped selling it all together.
Jim


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## nicknitro (Apr 21, 2009)

Thanks JimDoc,

I'm just happy to have found it, I have been looking at quite a few places, and have actually tried another Lowes before, and couldn't find any. 

Good luck in your efforts to find it cheaper, maybe if you keep looking around like I did, you'll get lucky. 


Thanks Again,
Nick


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