# need to neutralize my mess



## godofwar (Jan 23, 2011)

ok i did a Ar solution neutralized the nitric after a disolve..... filtered and performed SMB and didn't drop.... my suspect is contamination through one or more sources..... anyway i want to drop everything get all potential metals involved out and start over.....

cause to neutralize everything by sodium bicarbonate will take FOREVER..... i just want precipatate it all out....


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## Harold_V (Jan 23, 2011)

godofwar said:


> ok i did a Ar solution neutralized the nitric after a disolve..... filtered and performed SMB and didn't drop.... my suspect is contamination through one or more sources..... anyway i want to drop everything get all potential metals involved out and start over.....
> 
> cause to neutralize everything by sodium bicarbonate will take FOREVER..... i just want precipatate it all out....


Have you read Hoke?

Harold


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## godofwar (Jan 23, 2011)

i type in hoke i search for this book that is suppose to free down load ... can't locate it all i keep coming across is chloride testing .... but i have been doing research....

i am not trying to do the copper plate method i just want to drop all of it


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## lazersteve (Jan 23, 2011)

The Guided Tour Link has a working copy of Hoke in it.

Steve


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## godofwar (Jan 23, 2011)

thanks for the link .... but no offense i need help with this i need to get the chemical neutralized as in right now ..... i have no problem reading this book i will read it before i do this process over . but my mixture is not in a logical long term storage... i just need some down and dirty help to remove this hazard as fast as i possibly can .....


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## Harold_V (Jan 23, 2011)

godofwar said:


> thanks for the link .... but no offense i need help with this i need to get the chemical neutralized as in right now ..... i have no problem reading this book i will read it before i do this process over . but my mixture is not in a logical long term storage... i just need some down and dirty help to remove this hazard as fast as i possibly can .....


Heh! Never enough time to do it right, but all the time in the world to do it over (and over).

Scrap steel. 

But, you're making a mistake. 

It's all in Hoke. 

You should have known what you're doing before you got involved. It never ceases to amaze me how people refuse to read and learn, then want someone to bail them out when things go south. It's getting to be a regular habit on this forum. To be very truthful, it's killing my incentive to try to help. Just like welfare----people grow fat and lazy and refuse to do things for themselves so long as they can rely on others to bail them out. :x 

Harold


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## stihl88 (Jan 23, 2011)

Well said H, wise words indeed.


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## godofwar (Jan 23, 2011)

i dont refuse to learn i just need to get this neutralized ..... and then i can sit down and read i am not going to go over my personal life and i never said i wasn't going to worry about hoke ....

i looked for the book number of times and couldn't find it.... now i have it things are different but i can't keep this active acid sitting around in a improper storage while i read this book i need to drop it all out .....

so i am asking for help because i am in a bind. i have no problem learning i now have resource that i didn't have.....


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## lazersteve (Jan 23, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Scrap steel.
> 
> Harold



Harold already gave you sound advice.

Steve


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## godofwar (Jan 23, 2011)

THANK YOU situations will be different in future post


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## goldenchild (Jan 23, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how people refuse to read and learn, then want someone to bail them out when things go south. It's getting to be a regular habit on this forum. To be very truthful, it's killing my incentive to try to help.
> 
> Harold



Yes. It seems like there are at least 3 of these per day anymore. I have been just skipping over these lately.


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## Harold_V (Jan 24, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > It never ceases to amaze me how people refuse to read and learn, then want someone to bail them out when things go south. It's getting to be a regular habit on this forum. To be very truthful, it's killing my incentive to try to help.
> ...


Oz has proposed the idea of having a newbie forum, where the new-guy-in remains until he is ready for the full forum. Up to now I thought that maybe he was nuts. 

He's not. 

There has to be a way for seasoned people to be isolated from the guy that refuses to do anything to better his knowledge, and asks questions that shouldn't be being asked. When such basic knowledge is not at their disposal, they really shouldn't be screwing around with procedures that can be hazardous. They should prove themselves worthy (for lack of better terminology) of taking the valuable time of those of us that actually already have a life. 

Harold


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## jimdoc (Jan 24, 2011)

I was thinking that we could make up a page that all newbies can be told to print out and read.It could have a numbered list of all the common answers that a newbie could just be told to read a numbered response on the page they have printed out.So someone can just type check #6 on the list.Or read the whole list again.#1 could be;download and read Hoke's book with a link to it.#2 could be;questions asked before reading Hoke's book and the forum guide books will be ignored by everyone,and those questions will be obvious to everyone,because they have all been heard many times before you got here.

I agree that newbies should have to do some homework and research when they get here before asking questions.If they had a most common new member's question and answer area that they can be guided to,maybe that would work.

Some new members may have very good questions right from the start,but it seems like there have been a large number of people asking the same old things proving that they haven't even tried to read the basics.
And keep adding more questions and needing help with their problems.
Then we have to guess what they mean,or what they have done to get the problem.

Maybe a newbie's problem section.Of course they will not post there,the moderators will most likely have to move them there at first.

We have to find some way to ease the problem.It may not seem like a big deal to someone who just got here,but years of the same old questions from people not willing to do some reading on their own gets old quick.

Jim


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## nickvc (Jan 24, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > It never ceases to amaze me how people refuse to read and learn, then want someone to bail them out when things go south. It's getting to be a regular habit on this forum. To be very truthful, it's killing my incentive to try to help.
> ...




I really can understand the frustration felt by the elders of our forum.

When I started refining I had zero knowledge other than that which I had learnt from watching the processes been done by the chemist of the business I worked for at the time.
I jumped in blindly with help and advice from a couple of chemists who had some experience of the business. Unlike Harold I had never heard of Hoke which would have made my life and business a lot easier had I read it and I'm sure that over the years I discarded values due to ignorance, especially PGMs. My knowledge of chemistry was and is tenuous never the less I ran a successful business for many years learning the hard way but having no where to go for advice other than the school of experience with many failures and problems.
The forum didn't exist, I didn't have the access to the real experts who freely give advice and help selflessly, I can honestly say I have learnt more on here than I learnt the whole time I refined for a living and feel honoured to have conversed with some of the best refining minds on the planet who also turn out to be real nice guys.
The noobies really don't know how lucky and privileged they are to have access to the forum and it's band of experts, it's free downloads and the search function that guides your searches into the areas that relate to the subject help is required for, it might take you off in tangents at times but that is also part of learning giving insights into areas that perhaps sooner or later your going to need to know about.
It's all here, it's free, there is no better resource for this subject, the experts are just that, living talking encyclopaedias of vast knowledge and with hundreds of years of hands on experience between them.
Please do your part or at least take the advice to read until the subject makes sense or the processes are fully known and the reactions don't surprise you at every turn.


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## jimdoc (Jan 24, 2011)

People act like this is just another forum.
That is so far from the truth,that they can't even comprehend.
It's not like they should ever expect people to share info like this
so freely and openly.Its not a subject that they will find honest
and truthful answers and direction anywhere else on the internet
or buying a guide on Ebay.

But since they found this place, they should have some sort of "ten commandments" to follow.Or we can make that whatever number of commandments is needed.

Jim


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## patnor1011 (Jan 24, 2011)

What about newbies section or where they will be posting their question. Like Newbie Help needed and Help (or something different) for the rest. I am sure that plenty of people will check their threads and questions and spare Mods from answering hundreds of times the same questions about AR or yields from whatever...


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## jimdoc (Jan 24, 2011)

Maybe Oz's newbie section would work if they are only able to post there for the first few weeks,and are offered all the forum handbooks and Hoke to read in those weeks.
And others can be banished to the newbie section as punishment when needed.

It would probably help keep the spammer problem down also, as they would be locked into the newbie section long enough to forget to come back when they could post in the regular forum.

Jim


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## patnor1011 (Jan 24, 2011)

I can offer my own experience. When I joined forum I was armed with knowledge from shady ebay wonder book and start firing off few questions. I did not liked answers as I was sure that I am right and others dont want me to start refining all that heaps of golds from computers. I was sure that there is 100 $ worth of gold in ceramic processors and gold was 300/oz that time. I was also pretty sure that I have tons of platinum in my pound of hdd platters. I was determined to prove myself correct and start reading forum from post one. After few days I realized what is here and after few months I was in picture completelly. There is no thing like slow learner or fast learner due to mountains of informations and experience covered here in thousands of posts. I was ready to start refining that day when I joined only to discover that all I will acomplish will be just mess and problems of how to proceed from step to step. Refining is not get rich quick scheme. Whoever want to get rich quick in gold should go to sales. Buy & Sell, count the profit/loss. I want to say that studying forum and offered literature I did not lose anything as I was collecting and hoarding material ready to be processed later with easiness and comfort by understanding completelly of what I do in every step. 
It all require will and investment of your own time not to demand attention and time of others especially when you have nothing to offer back. Most of newbies problems and mistakes are completelly identical so they may find their answer easily just by reading Help needed section thread by thread, post by post. There are hundreds of posts in this thread with question and simple answer with link: _wiev post XYZ_  If person who found that answer can put in time searching that links on this forum and offer them so can do person who asked.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 24, 2011)

I can say that I have mastered AP to perfection and can do that with closed eyes. A while ago I offered help to one newbie as he was posting questions which have been answered lots of times. I started comunicating with him in PM. I got tired after week or two as I got several PM every day with questions like what now, why, what is the yield, yada yada. Despite my recommendation this person did not wanted to learn he was looking for somebody who will walk him through his adventures and did not think a second that I do this as favor it was rather sort of entitlement thing. My advices to read this or look for that were just bypassed with another set of questions. I do not imply that everyone here is like that. If you want to know how to repair engine in car you do not start that with sledgehammer or helper on the phone/email.
We saw many of beginners who came, learn and now know how to do things. All that took time and effort from their side. When they showed that they can invest their time they got all help from very experienced people we have here.
Sorry for rambling from (advanced) beginner.


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## goldenchild (Jan 24, 2011)

jimdoc said:


> Maybe Oz's newbie section would work if they are only able to post there for the first few weeks,and are offered all the forum handbooks and Hoke to read in those weeks.
> And others can be banished to the newbie section as punishment when needed.
> 
> It would probably help keep the spammer problem down also, as they would be locked into the newbie section long enough to forget to come back when they could post in the regular forum.
> ...



I think something along these lines is the only way it will work. If a "newbie section" is put up they will simply skip over it. I was thinking there could even be something set up where you can't even see the forum topics until you download Hoke from a provided link. Or you have to download Hoke and then can only see the "newbie section" for a week or two. Maybe they can only see the forum topics after taking a 10-20 question quiz of very basic refining knowledge after the week. There are many combinations and possiblities.


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## Claudie (Jan 24, 2011)

Some forums have a minor section for those under age 18 or 14 or whatever age the moderator chooses. People who are members there only have access to that section and not the main forum. I don't know why there couldn't be a section for beginners here that worked the same way. Maybe require the passing of an exam in order to gain full access to the forum. Make sure some of the questions on the test are the same questions new members are repeatedly asking, that way when they do get full access, they won't be asking those questions. Just some thoughts. :|


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## godofwar (Jan 24, 2011)

Wow this took off... 

look i said before i don't have a problem learning that was what ended up leading me to this forum. i post a question cause i was in a bind and am thankful no matter how fowl the outcome has become. but the fact is you have remember that all the ins and out are never displayed in most the stuff that a newbie comes across. i repeatedly searched this forum for info and picking up little by little after i had already made my mistakes.
hokes book was not a easy find it took until now to get it.. had even ran a search for it multiple times.

it would be nice if the it was simpler to locate the book through search......

i am not a XP Leach......i am not looking for easy answers our help on every step

remember not everyone new is out to half a## what they do......

i have the book now and i will read it


Maybe Sticky it in the books section so it will remain the first in the list that would have helped drastically


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## Palladium (Jan 24, 2011)

I don't think all of it is meant for you godofwar. It just so happened your thread was the one it got reviewed on. I have several accounts on the forum with a couple of thousand post between the accounts. Each on of those post carry my sig line in which you can find a copy of Hoke and hundreds of books and articles related to refining.


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## godofwar (Jan 24, 2011)

i am not taking it as a personal attack..... i just don't want people to assume that i am lazy... because i had to take a easy out in a hard lesson learned..... that i really don't want to go through again


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## jimdoc (Jan 24, 2011)

Godofwar,
The point everybody is trying to make here is;
We would like everyone to understand the basics and all the safety concerns before they get started.You will learn a valuable lesson by "your mess".
Others can learn the same lesson,by reading of your situation and others.
Also learn how to avoid them,by learning the basics.The lesson will not be remembered like you hopefully remember,but with the hazards involved in this hobby it should always be safety first.Its hard when everybody wants to rush to see some gold.So all this is not aimed at you,like Palladium said this post just happened to be where it got aired out.

Jim


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## godofwar (Jan 24, 2011)

godofwar said:


> i am not taking it as a personal attack.....



as i said before


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## Palladium (Jan 24, 2011)

Good man. 8) 
That means your open to learning. Welcome to the forum.


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## goldenchild (Jan 24, 2011)

Claudie said:


> Some forums have a minor section for those under age 18 or 14 or whatever age the moderator chooses. People who are members there only have access to that section and not the main forum. I don't know why there couldn't be a section for beginners here that worked the same way. Maybe require the passing of an exam in order to gain full access to the forum. Make sure some of the questions on the test are the same questions new members are repeatedly asking, that way when they do get full access, they won't be asking those questions. Just some thoughts. :|



This is what I said.


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## Claudie (Jan 24, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe Oz's newbie section would work if they are only able to post there for the first few weeks,and are offered all the forum handbooks and Hoke to read in those weeks.
> ...




Yes you did! :shock: 
Please accept my apologies.


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## eeTHr (Jan 27, 2011)

My main concern is that in trying to help someone, it turns out that they haven't a clue as to the dangers, and so have no idea of what safety precautions they should be taking, and end up getting themselves and possibly their family seriously hurt, or worse.

Sometimes newcomers have already worked in a lab, with many of the same chemicals, and have already developed good safety habits. But most times it's hard to tell exactly how much knowledge or common sense they actually have.

The thought of reading in the papers that someone you tried to help, got hurt doing it the next day, is really creepy. Not to mention bad press for the site, and you can figure how that would go.


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## nickvc (Jan 27, 2011)

eeThr

The moderators and senior members of the forum jump on any dangerous or ill thought out processes or ideas for that very reason and you and most other members try to push newbies in the direction of learning before attempting any refining or recovery.
Much of what we do is available in garbled and often misleading snippets all over the net, at least if they get here we can try to educate them into safe practices and correct procedures but and it's a big but you can't always get them to listen,a problem that does seem to be getting worse, as does the I want attitude!
We all try to offer tried and tested processes and point out the dangers to those who obviously know little about our hobby and that I feel is all we can do....if members won't listen and as Harold says insist on reinventing the wheel so be it they have been warned.


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## eeTHr (Jan 27, 2011)

nickvc---

Yep.

One thing I thought about is that many people probably come to this site from search engines. So, depending on what search words they enter, and which of the resulting links they choose, they could directly arrive at any page _within _the forum, rather than the site Home Page or the Forum Main Page.

Thus they would bypass the lists of contents, where the Safety section is shown. When they jump right into posts discussing whatever it is they are interested in, lots of times all they might see is "add this chemical to that acid," etcetera. And it all seems kind of safe and simple. So they just ask their question without realizing what they are getting into, you know?

Sure, most of us in that kind of search engine situation would probably read many posts, and check the main page for announcements, and get the feel of things before posting. But I think that with the Internet being so common these days, and kids having been practically _raised_ on it, I think maybe they feel like it's normal to just jump right in and start posting their questions, and get to learn the site _that_ way.

But, like someone else said, this isn't exactly your run-of-the-mill Internet site. So when they jump into it, they really "step in it" sometimes.

It's frusrating for them, and frustrating for the members, too.

It would be great if someone could find a way to sort of break it to them gently, that this is _not_ just a "jump right in and play with the chemicals" kind of site. (And let them know the reasons _why_ it is not.) I think that would calm things considerably, without giving people a creepy "police state" feeling.

Just my thoughts.


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## godofwar (Jan 27, 2011)

i think i had to register even know search is what originally brought me here...... cause i was having problem find the proper nitric acid formula... i was not able to order it.
which led me to poor mans AR then lead to that disaster.... then my last event leading to this disaster......

it all came down to my separation process prior to AR...... 

but any way besides lessons learned..... 

people are going to try to get into this if you help them our not ... you restrict them access they will try to find it somewhere else.... all you can do is focus on providing safe technique..... just hope it's taken.... you can't be responsible/feel responsible for idiots that don't want to try to keep from painful life altering mistakes.


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## Harold_V (Jan 28, 2011)

godofwar said:


> people are going to try to get into this if you help them our not ... you restrict them access they will try to find it somewhere else....


Those that don't understand the wisdom in learning first *should do just that*. I wish them luck. The net is already overly filled with misinformation, which they'll glom on to because it makes refining look like it's easy---when in fact you must understand things or it's not easy at all. Just ask the huge number of clever people that have tried to follow the great advice dispensed on the net and have accomplished nothing. 

Refining is perfectly safe, not only for the refiner, but the environment, when good work habits are enforced and good sense is at the disposal of the refiner. Those that think they can blindly process gold, disregarding everything of importance, should not come to this forum. They won't last long---they'll get booted because of their stupidity and entitlement attitude. What we hope to do here is help those that are eager to gain knowledge and are willing to jump through a few hoops by reading and gaining knowledge and coming to understand the terms and processes involved. That would include understanding how to test. If they want instant gratification, as many do, they came to the wrong place. We help those that show initiative. 


Harold


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## godofwar (Jan 31, 2011)

yeah gold fever grabs alot of people and the more i read, well the dumber i feel ... if that makes sense. it is made out to be easy and all you ever see is the last few steps then a melt.. they never show the 100's of steps from start to safe waste removal.... i jumped in after about a month of research...

i was rocking along until i hit this site and a few problems and started to really locate the good info.... i have cut down to smaller scale... slowing my process down to really get ahold of those smaller details that can be missed. 

i have started my primary focus on getting a cleaner material before i get to the AR.. and really trying get perfect at it...

gold is awesome and i really want to get to that end product but {{{{{{ if you are not learning you are not doing anything important}}}}}}}


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## fishntrox (Feb 1, 2011)

First, I am a noobie and I just produced my first button this past weekend. I stumbled across this forum during the first week of Dec. when I was off work with mono and the more I read, the more questions I had. As soon as I found the answer to one, two more questions popped into my mind. To be quite truthful, you guys scared me into not asking any questions until I at least had put the time and effort in to read and attempt to understand the recommended materials. I now research this forum on a daily basis. Sometimes my questions are answered and sometimes they are not. But, I always learn something new through the research. Maybe someday I will post a question. But, it will not be until I truly feel I can not locate the anwer (or do not understand). I am learning (slowly)everyday and I have you expert members to thank for that. Noobies need to understand they have to crawl before they walk. Keep up the good advice and thank you all for this wonderful site.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 1, 2011)

fishntrox said:


> First, I am a noobie and I just produced my first button this past weekend. I stumbled across this forum during the first week of Dec. when I was off work with mono and the more I read, the more questions I had. As soon as I found the answer to one, two more questions popped into my mind. To be quite truthful, you guys scared me into not asking any questions until I at least had put the time and effort in to read and attempt to understand the recommended materials. I now research this forum on a daily basis. Sometimes my questions are answered and sometimes they are not. But, I always learn something new through the research. Maybe someday I will post a question. But, it will not be until I truly feel I can not locate the anwer (or do not understand). I am learning (slowly)everyday and I have you expert members to thank for that. Noobies need to understand they have to crawl before they walk. Keep up the good advice and thank you all for this wonderful site.



What happens with post's is not ment to deture or intimidate people it is just ment for them to use the knot on top of thier shoulders and learn. What you learn thru your searches will help you a lot and you will find little trick's to processing that will be time saving.

Congradulations, the time you spend looking for information will pay huge dividends in the future for you with the knowledge you aquire during your searches.

You should post a picture of your button.


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## fishntrox (Feb 1, 2011)

Barren, scared probably wasn't the best word to use. I really don't feel I've had any questions over the basics that aren't already covered here and will eventually be able to find. I know in the long run I'll learn way more more researching and reading than someone just giving me an answer. Also, a picture of my button is posted in the gallery section, just look for fishntrox.
Thanks


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 1, 2011)

fishntrox said:


> Barren, scared probably wasn't the best word to use. I really don't feel I've had any questions over the basics that aren't already covered here and will eventually be able to find. I know in the long run I'll learn way more more researching and reading than someone just giving me an answer. Also, a picture of my button is posted in the gallery section, just look for fishntrox.
> Thanks



You are possibly correct so I changed the wording. Thanks.


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## fishntrox (Feb 1, 2011)

Barren, I was talking about me. You did not need to change anything. You were only repeating what I said.


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## Harold_V (Feb 2, 2011)

fishntrox said:


> Barren, I was talking about me. You did not need to change anything. You were only repeating what I said.


I would like to commend you for your logical approach to the forum, and the understanding that it is very important that readers do as you have done---read and seek answers to questions. Until you have a firm understanding of these processes, the questions will never cease. By gaining an understanding of the basics, the balance of the issues you will face will be much easier to solve. I wish more of the readers would take a page from your book and learn as you have done. 

Welcome to the forum. Feel free to seek guidance when it is required. It's clear you are not expecting a free ride. 

Harold


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## gold4mike (Feb 3, 2011)

After reading this thread I have a question and possible suggestion.

Is it possible to make a setting on the forum that makes it impossible for someone to make a post until they have read a certain number of posts?

I would like to require that a newbie has read, for example, 100 posts before being allowed to post.

Food for thought...


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## goldenchild (Feb 3, 2011)

gold4mike,

I fear that this wouldn't work very well. It would be similar to when you install a piece of software on your computer and it asks you if you agree with the terms and conditions. No one ever reads that stuff :lol: They just check the agree box and move on. There is no way of knowing if the person truely read the text. I've seen some more sophisticated pages where you have to at least scroll through to the very bottom before it lets you check the box but thats useless. 

I suppose you could put a minimum time that the user has to visit the post but what is a good minimum time? Everyone reads at different speeds. Which posts are more important that others? Is there any mis information in the thread these posts are on? The list goes on.


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## chrisv (Feb 4, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> godofwar said:
> 
> 
> > thanks for the link .... but no offense i need help with this i need to get the chemical neutralized as in right now ..... i have no problem reading this book i will read it before i do this process over . but my mixture is not in a logical long term storage... i just need some down and dirty help to remove this hazard as fast as i possibly can .....
> ...



Not much to do with this post, but well said Harold. Although things like this kill your incentive to help, please know that people that have had your help really do appreciate it and that should be enough to keep you here  Mind you, once again, what you say is so true. I cant understand it myself, and like you say, people get fat and lazy, and expect help, and then eventualy you just give help and let them be fat and lazy, then they just wana jump off the nearest bridge but they cant as your not helping them, and they to fat and lazy to do it themself


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## lasereyes (Feb 4, 2011)

a flow chart should be made that diagnoses all the common problems. All of the answers could be taken from the help needed section.


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## butcher (Feb 4, 2011)

I have repaired machinery, and troubleshooting equipment for years,
Never have seen a troubleshooting chart or diagram worth the paper it was written on, most of them will lead you off on a goose chase, but once you understand the principles of operation, and understand the mechanics, and know how to troubleshoot, troubleshooting is easy.


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## lasereyes (Feb 4, 2011)

butcher said:


> I have repaired machinery, and troubleshooting equipment for years,
> Never have seen a troubleshooting chart or diagram worth the paper it was written on, most of them will lead you off on a goose chase, but once you understand the principles of operation, and understand the mechanics, and know how to troubleshoot, troubleshooting is easy.



Yes, but most people do not want to or are incapable of doing that.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 4, 2011)

Here is NOXX's join date, Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:10 pm. So the forum is going on it's 4th year of operating. 

Now a lot of you are making suggestions on how to make thing's different on the forum on how new people should be guided to act, how to direct them to the area they should be in, what they should be made to read, wha they should do to become a member of the forum.

What you are not seeing for the trees is that each question that is asked by a user is a chance for you to learn, how to do thing's or how not to do thing's. Look in the mirror and ask yourself as if it were your first time on the forum and you know where nothing is at would you jump thru the hoop's that many of you are sugesting?

The moderator's have a good handle on the forum and they have done a great job guideing users to the information that each user needs, and policeing the bad apples. Look back at your first questions that you asked on the forum and see where you have come from and the guidence you have recieved.

If you want to make the forum better then take a new person under your wing and guide them with what you have learned, and if your guidence is in the wrong direction it will be cought and corrected by someone more knowlegable. This is how each of you will learn the most you will ever learn here besides following the guidence or the moderators and thier examples.

If they feel something important needs to be changed they can make a sticky out of it where it is in the beginning of a section.

You can not make a cookie cutter aproach for everyone. There are too many variables and unknowns.


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## Harold_V (Feb 5, 2011)

lasereyes said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > I have repaired machinery, and troubleshooting equipment for years,
> ...


If they are incapable of doing that, what makes you think they'd be capable of safely refining? Further, why would we want anyone here that fits that description? Hit the road is my suggestion. 

I'm sick to death of lazy, no account people that sit on their duff and demand spoon feeding. If it's not important enough for them to expend any of their energy, why the hell should I expend mine? As much as I hate to say it, what's in it for me? The joy of being bad mouthed by some bastard that isn't welcome here? 

Please note that I typically refrain from making reference to others in that fashion. That, however, paints the precise picture I hope to present. 

Work hard, showing you're trying, and there's no end to the support you can get from this forum. Sit back casting disparaging remarks and demanding answers will generally get you banned. 

Harold


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## Oz (Feb 5, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> If they are incapable of doing that, what makes you think they'd be capable of safely refining? Further, why would we want anyone here that fits that description? Hit the road is my suggestion.


There is something to be said as to the science of natural selection. The trick is to catch them before breeding age.


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## kdaddy (Feb 5, 2011)

I agree with you 100 % Harold. If a person doesn't have the will to help himself, why should anyone else help them, especially when the person has attitude or feels like he deserves your help. "The info is here, read it!" should be the forum motto/creed/Tshirt.


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## godofwar (Feb 5, 2011)

butcher said:


> I have repaired machinery, and troubleshooting equipment for years,
> Never have seen a troubleshooting chart or diagram worth the paper it was written on, most of them will lead you off on a goose chase, but once you understand the principles of operation, and understand the mechanics, and know how to troubleshoot, troubleshooting is easy.



agree the only thing i have ever seen to assist is system self diagnostic problem indicator..... normally flashing LED numerical code..... oh easy....

i wouldn't make a one source page for common problems cause a problem should create serious research....... which can create a eye opening find or experience...

cause problems are what led me here and potential problems led me to a insane amounts of research..... trust me if you had a "EASY FIX" page that is going to create a different type of issue....

this is coming from someone that could benefit from a "EASY FIX" list i rather research no matter how bad it may hurt my eyes


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## butcher (Feb 5, 2011)

we can write a proceedure for refining, giving the chemistry behind it, give very good instruction on the process, explain the reactions you should expect, and still will get the question why can't I get my gold to precipitate from this Aqua regia.

list every mistake someone can make by not following the process, and you will have a troubleshooting chart, do not forget to list every other chemical they may think we are talking about and you may have a clue to why they cannot get the reaction expected, or may add something else thinking they can make the process easier ormaybe just skip certain parts of a process, P.S. they may leave out many important details of what else they have done, or did not do and may not even tell you, so your troubleshooting chart may also have to cover that also.

your best troubleshooting tool is education, understanding a process and the reactions of metals and acids, really it is not rocket science, and Harold and many before us has given many years of expierience to further your education.
HOKE's book will give you a understanding of principles, the forum members have proven the processes work if followed.

I have not had much time to devote to the forum lately . and my hat is off to those who spend so much of there time trying to help others, (many times getting called names for there tireless efforts). but then when you see new members melting dish gleaming with GOLD from there efforts and a thankyou it seems to help.


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## eeTHr (Feb 6, 2011)

butcher said:


> ...they may leave out many important details of what else they have done, or did not do and may not even tell you....



Now that I've stopped laughing, I find that I agree with you.

To be fair, though, not _everybody_ withholds what they _actually_ did until your fifth or sixth reply to their problem. :lol: 

And most everybody has made a mess in their very first attempts (right Harold?---Yeah, I read an old post where you fessed up to it. :lol: )

But, nonetheless, it's probable that the simpler it is made, the goofier their mistakes will become. Maybe that's just part of it?


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## Harold_V (Feb 6, 2011)

eeTHr said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > And most everybody has made a mess in their very first attempts (right Harold?---Yeah, I read an old post where you fessed up to it. :lol: )


   

Guilty as charged!

When I was starting out, I wasn't convinced Hoke was on the right track (of course not! Why should he (first mistake) know more than I did?). I made more than one mistake, including setting my garage on fire.  "Clever" people do things like that. 

That's one of the reasons I keep harping on not trying to reinvent the wheel, especially when one's objective is to *learn* refining. It never ceases to amaze me how some guys go off on an unsound tangent based on what they want to believe instead of on what is known to work. It often leads to more than a little embarrassment! 

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 6, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> eeTHr said:
> 
> 
> > butcher said:
> ...



Did you mean to Hokea HE?

Come on Harold you have got to tell the story about setting the garage on fire, this I want to hear.. PLEASE 8) :lol: :mrgreen: :twisted:


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## Harold_V (Feb 6, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Did you mean to Hokea HE?


Correct. I was not aware that Hoke was a woman. I learned that here, on this forum. Take note that there is nothing in her book to imply she is a female. I expect that is to do with her time--- women did not enjoy the success they do today--it wasn't fashionable for them to compete in what was, then, a man's world. 



> Come on Harold you have got to tell the story about setting the garage on fire, this I want to hear.. PLEASE 8) :lol: :mrgreen: :twisted:


Pretty simple. I had my wisdom teeth pulled and didn't feel all that great. Got home from the dentist's office and set some polishing wastes, including the large plastic bag, on to incinerate. This was early on, when I was using my first hood, a dreadful thing I had made of fiberglass. Went inside to relax, then decided a dish of ice cream was in order. As I was eating the ice cream, I heard a noise from what was then, my lab, an attached two car garage. Ran in to find black smoke down to about four feet off the floor. Couldn't see a thing. Ducked down low and ran to the far side, where the hood was located, to find it on fire, including the under side of the roof. Ran back and told Susan to call 911---then ran back in and emptied my fire extinguisher, which reduced the flame, but didn't put it out. Next I grabbed a garden hose and went back in, extinguishing the flames. Opened the doors to air out the smoke, then went back to the house to find Susan still talking to 911---answering questions, without having dispatched the fire department. I shudder to think what would have happened had I not put out the flames. I told her to tell 911 to disregard the call, that the fire was out. To this day, I have nothing good to say about 911. By the way, the fire department was about two blocks away, as the crow flies. Directly behind my house, although no street connected the two without driving around a little. They could have been to my address in less than a minute. 

You may have taken note that I always talk about using a hood that is fire resistant. Now you may understand why. My next hood was made entirely of asbestos, as was my third hood, which proved to be a good design. 

When you incinerate a plastic bag (this one was covered with polishing waste---it needed to be processed), they don't burn immediately. What they do is liquefy, then when they're hot enough, they burn almost like gasoline (not quite, you understand). When the pan reached the proper temperature, the flames impinged on the small hood, which was now quite hot anyway, setting it on fire. 

I do NOT endorse hoods made of fiber glass, nor wood. Wood that is exposed to nitric acid burns readily. Fiber glass resin burns readily as well. 

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 7, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you mean to Hokea HE?
> ...



Yea it's not fun when something like that happens.

At the chemical plant I use work at they use a horizontal 1.5 MBTU natural gas heater with a blower in a SS enclosure that connected to a 3' or 4' dia. vertical fiberglass stack that they circulated the fluids (zinc bromide, zinc chloride and others) thru and heated the fluids to evaporate the solutions down. They burnt the stacks out 2-3 times a year and either we repaired them in place or tore them out and replaced them. Definetly not the type of material to use in a situation like that.


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## eeTHr (Feb 8, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> I had my wisdom teeth pulled and didn't feel all that great.



And that's when I started laughing. Sorry, but I couldn't help myself. What a perfect lead-in to a fiasco. :lol:


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## Harold_V (Feb 8, 2011)

eeTHr said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > I had my wisdom teeth pulled and didn't feel all that great.
> ...


Especially when you have your head firmly installed in a very dark place. 

I knew better than to leave incineration unsupervised. It is lessons like this that make you cautious. My final hood design was wonderful, including the mounting area. There was nothing combustible within several inches. That was not true of my second hood, where I discovered badly charred wood under the hood when I moved. That, too, was from incineration. 

I have no problem laughing at myself, especially when I make stupid mistakes. You are certainly entitled to a few chuckles. 

Harold


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## goldenchild (Feb 8, 2011)

eeTHr said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > I had my wisdom teeth pulled and didn't feel all that great.
> ...



This reminded me of the story GSP told where he saw a guy incinerate a bunch of electronic scrap creating enough black smoke to fill a 15 block area. Luckily it was an industrial zone and everyone thought it was fog. I laughed at that one. :lol:


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## eeTHr (Feb 8, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> I have no problem laughing at myself, especially when I make stupid mistakes. You are certainly entitled to a few chuckles.



Well, it also made me rethink a few plans I had.

Thanks for posting that.


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