# What happen?



## reign21male (Nov 29, 2012)

Hi, I know I said wasnt going to try this but in the end I had too. I had made a button of different carts 8k to 18k. And I decided to inquart it 22 grams of mix gold with about 22 grans of silver and I read in hokies you can use gold filed to it to the lower the cart the lest time in the acided.[attachment]IMAG1080.jpg[/attachment] it looked really odd. But for being my first try. I'm not sure how it should look. There was a total of 10 tzo in the bowl I add water to 300 ml line and the add nitric acid until a reaction. The line was up to 450 ml so ot was pretty deluted. And it was 40 degrees outside so I put in a plastic bucket and add boil water ever so often.
. Once it stopped reacting I add more nitric acid and there was no reaction so I started deluting it and decanted the fluid. The result[attachment]IMAG1086.jpg[/attachment] And alot of blue wash which the next day I tried to add copper to precipitate the silver with no results. I ran a magnet over the slimey feed and there is ore or steel some of it stuck. I read AR would disolve that to. So I tried that and got a Uber dark green color
sorry if acttachments are out of order. I can seem to figure out this site. Dark Cup is AR. I used a alot on it twice and it react of hour the two time I add the Aqua Regia. I decided to take so of the pieces out and puty in the other cup with just water and alot of nitric acid it react for a long time when it stopped i adv it more it react for a bit and stopped now it had a really cloudy blue which i keeped I put some on in another bottle and add copper and it look like it was reacting. I know more on that tomorrow. This is what I ended up with a Dark green gray solution and some mud or slugde and some pieces that do seem to want to dissovle and dont want to run out of acid. I have a little less then a half a pint nitric acid left.


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## reign21male (Nov 29, 2012)

View attachment 1


And Idea where I went wrong? And how I salvage this mess? And help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Geo (Nov 29, 2012)

i dont think gold filled is the best material to inquart with. it usually contains tin in the mix. also, i dont think you got a good melt when you mixed the metals. it needs to be melted together completely and stirred with a carbon rod to ensure a good mix. you didnt pour the melted metal into shot. shot gives the acid more area of contact. you didnt use near enough nitric acid to finish the dissolution. i believe the base metal in your incomplete mix may have cemented the silver out of solution anyway. the grey could be lead from the gold filled or maybe not.thats why its a poor choice for inquarting (to many variants).

id say, decant the solution and cement whatever may remain in solution out with copper. add the powder back to your material and incinerate the lot.boil in hcl to remove as much tin as you can and decant while hot.rinse in boiling water and decant.repeat rinse.dry and melt and add enough silver to ensure 6K margin.too much silver will not hurt other than it takes more acid, not enough silver and the acid dissolves nothing.this time, pour into shot and try again with the correct amount of acid for the weight you are working with.


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## glondor (Nov 29, 2012)

What I got out of this, and excuse me if I am wrong, you dissolved your metal with nitric, then added A/R to the solution? Is that correct?


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## Geo (Nov 30, 2012)

yea, i got that too, but it was only one container. i didnt even mention that. some times we have to learn by doing.


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## reign21male (Nov 30, 2012)

First I want to say thanks for your help. But to be a little clearer. I had alot of gold filled, and i'm sure some electric plate got into. The first shot I made was just gold and silver. Then all the additional shots were gold filled. Each shot was fluxed and melted and stirred. And drizzled out in the iron pan with cold water. However most of the shot landed on top of each other and melted together. So from what I'm getting from you is that I didnt use enough nitric acid and the gold filled take alot of acid even when melted down. And no I didnt add AR to the spent nitric acid. I poured out the deluted solution and the next day Add AR until it stop reacting and then I add more. Then I decided after the fact that maybe I should have done a longer nitric acid bath. So I moved the chunks over. And got the better looking blue solution instead of the little bluish green color I had before. Should I toss the first set of waste as it didnt react to the copper or should I heat it up and concentrated and see if reacts. Or should Pour salt and see if I crystals? I hope this gives you a better idea of teh process I used. Thanks in advance -Jason-


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## reign21male (Nov 30, 2012)

After waking up I realized you probably meant cement the gold. Jokes say its a long process any idea how long to let the copper sit?


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## Geo (Nov 30, 2012)

i understand well. you started a process you know nothing about. im not trying to be a smart--- about it but stating what i see. you should study a process before you try it. what you have done is make a mess. 

let me quickly explain inquarting. inquarting is bringing the Karat of of gold to 6K or 25% pure gold. gold is normally inquarted with a metal that is easily dissolved in nitric acid like copper or silver. since it takes roughly 1 gallon of nitric acid to dissolve 2 pounds of copper while 1 gallon of nitric acid will dissolve 8 pounds of silver, silver is more economical to use.in this 6K state, the content of gold is such that the nitric acid can work within the metals matrix dissolving the inquarted metal from around the gold metal. the end result should be a gold "sponge" if you did the process correctly. never is AR used in inquarting as it will dissolve gold and that is not the objective.you want the gold to stay intact and the inquarting metal dissolved. nitric acid is normally used diluted 50/50 68% nitric acid and water.

gold filled is normally gold over copper but can be gold over silver but contains other base metals like tin and lead and steel. gold plated can be almost any base metal including zinc and heavy metals that can be toxic like chromium. do not use these materials to inquart.

cementing can take as long as a couple of days depending on whats in the solution. i would give it 24 hours anyway at the least.


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## reign21male (Nov 30, 2012)

My intention was to lower the karat so that it would dissolve faster. Didn't realized adding the gold fill was going to make it harder. My understanding was that when it dissolved it all the impurities would go with it. Then I could dissolve the gold with AR to remove and stubborn metals and ores that were left and clean the powder with nitric acid and then melt. I read hokes. I look at it almost every day at work. I saw this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ4sOiT_WWA its in four parts in inquarts 14k with silver shots. Use nitiric acid and the AR adds sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead. Which hokes says isn't necessary but some places do it. Washs and recanted many times the filtered gold using nitric acid and then melts. The only this is see wrong as a first times was take in the amount of unknow melts which if I had more time I would have done seperate. I will cement what I can. And check periodicily for gold whith stannson solution. And I figured it was a bit of a mess. Should I not try to dissolve the rest of the melt in nitric acid?


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## Geo (Nov 30, 2012)

anyone else?


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## martyn111 (Nov 30, 2012)

Geo said:


> anyone else?



Maybe we should change the advise we give to new members from 'read hokes' to 'understand hokes' before doing anything else.


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## jimdoc (Nov 30, 2012)

martyn111 said:


> Maybe we should change the advise we give to new members from 'read hokes' to 'understand hokes' before doing anything else.




Good luck with that one.

Jim


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## reign21male (Nov 30, 2012)

wow another person that also seemed to over look part of the book they or Maybe the two of you should look at these parts of the books.
66 REFINING PRECIOUS METAL WASTES
suitable when green gold is soldered to, or mixed with, platinum,
as in the case of platinum topped jewelry with a green-gold base.
You are already familiar with the idea of inquartation, or adding
enough silver, copper, or brass, to reduce the gold content to 25%
or less. This is the usual plan when green gold is refined.
The other alternative, of melting it up with some metal that will
make it soluble in aqua regia, is not so popular, but the student
should understand it. A button that contains more than 12% silver
is very slow to dissolve in aqua regia. With silver as low as 8%,
aqua regia works readily enough, especially if hot. (We are as
suming that the other constituents are metals that are themselves
soluble in aqua regia, such as gold, copper, zinc, or nickel.) We
can easily imagine a situation wherein a jeweler might have on
hand a little green gold, and considerable yellow gold, red gold, or
fine gold. By melting all these together he would obtain a button
of less than 12% silver, that would dissolve in aqua regia, and that
could be refined by familiar methods. This part used inquarting and AR. 

A third plan, suitable to the average shop, is to use cheap scrap
as the added material in the inquartation of high grade scrap, as
described in Chapter VI. This gives the worker a button similar
to that described in Chapter VI except that it probably contains
tin and lead.In a shop that handles gold and silver only no platinum-group
metals this is an excellent scheme so long as the worker understands
the effects of the tin and lead, and knows how to get rid of them.
We urge the student to become familiar with this plan, as he will
have many opportunities to use it.In which geo said it my be lead. So for the only real help out this thread. 

For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold,
electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft
solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method,
which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize
the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned
these important things, you can then use the method of inquarta
tion when desired, as it employs the same general principles.

In a shop that handles gold and silver only no platinum-group
metals this is an excellent scheme so long as the worker understands
the effects of the tin and lead, and knows how to get rid of them.
We urge the student to become familiar with this plan, as he will
have many opportunities to use it.

For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold,
electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft
solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method,
which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize
the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned
these important things, you can then use the method of inquarta
tion when desired, as it employs the same general principles.

I'm not leaving this updated for the Two that have decided to give there rather poor responses.
But rather for the people that are trying to learn and have realized that most people here are not really here to help. 
But are more likely waiting for someone to come up with another method or explain another reaction. 
But tell you to try these experiments. Unlike the response you will get here of go read the book. or understand the book first. I think Hokes would have laughed and that response. Either way It may be tin and lead in which I will try sulphuric acid or 50/50 hydrogen peroxide and hydrochloric acid.
I have nothing to loss by trying different methods. And there better forum were people seem to under the other methods. I see why new people seem to take issue with geo. And remember never say never. 
I hope this helps some new people.


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## martyn111 (Nov 30, 2012)

reign21male said:


> I see why new people seem to take issue with geo.



When you have successfully refined as little as 1% of the precious metals that Geo has refined you will discover that your 'issue' with him is unfounded.
If you think you have found a forum with better quality information provided to you free of charge then I wish you luck in your future processing.
Do you not believe us when we, as a group, point you in the direction of the information you need (Hoke's book)? We don't do practical jokes here, we try to help people with an interest in refining, but if you aren't prepared to help yourself by reading the information we guide you to, then with the best will in the world we are flogging a dead horse.


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## jimdoc (Nov 30, 2012)

reign21male said:


> wow another person that also seemed to over look part of the book they or Maybe the two of you should look at these parts of the books.
> 66 REFINING PRECIOUS METAL WASTES
> suitable when green gold is soldered to, or mixed with, platinum,
> as in the case of platinum topped jewelry with a green-gold base.
> ...



Another one who needs to be shown the exit door! Don't let the door hit you .. ... ...

Jim


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## AndyWilliams (Nov 30, 2012)

I'll start by saying that I'm not defending anyone here, they can take care of theirselves quite well. I only intend to point out what appears to be a basic misconception on your part. 



reign21male said:


> Didn't realize adding the gold fill was going to make it harder. My understanding was that when it dissolved it all the impurities would go with it.



Hoke did tell you, on the page you pasted here, that tin and lead were going to be complications of using gold-filled. She even makes it a point to say that you need to be able to identify the effects of tin and lead and learn how to get rid of them.



SHE WHO WE SHALL CALL HOKE said:


> For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold, electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method, which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned these important things, you can then use the method of inquartation when desired, as it employs the same general principles.



And nowhere in Hoke will you find any encouragement to use AR to 


reign21male said:


> remove and(any) stubborn metals and ores that were left and clean the powder with nitric acid and then melt.



That is why, I believe, there is a general thought that you don't understand Hoke. Obviously, you have read the book, at least some pertinent parts. But to say that 




reign21male said:


> AR adds sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead.



is not only wrong, but also displays a basic ignorance of the components of AR along with it's purpose in the refining stages.

I take Hoke to mean that we should all be knowledgable about tin and lead and their effect in our recovery and refining, but we should attempt to avoid getting them in there in the first place. Kinda like touching a hot burner, hopefully you only do it once. Best to avoid doing it over and over. 


I'd encourage you to reevaluate your comments and think about the bigger picture of your recovery and refining education. You won't be better off by being insulted and leaving. And that isn't anyone's end here. If it were, no one would have responded to you in the first place. Check Geo's first reponse and I think you'll agree that he was trouble-shooting for you. 

And just as an aside, maybe use a deeper pan with more water to pour your shot


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## butcher (Dec 1, 2012)

reign21male,
What happen?
You made a mess.
You do not understand the process.
You do not understand Hokes.
You do not know good advice when you hear it.
You are New to this and have a lot to learn.
Your attitude towards those trying to help is unacceptable on this forum.

May I add the advice you were given and the information provided, by these guys and Geo, they done an excellent job at the advice they were giving you, it was well thought out and very accurate actually I was very impressed at the understanding and well delivered messages, and cannot understand your attitude except to think either your pride is clouding your thought or else you truly do not have an understanding of what you are doing, in refining or with your attitude to these guys trying to help you out of a stupid mistake.

You took High grade gold and mixed it with trash, making it harder to get back your gold, in this mess with tin and nitric acid you will have colloidal gold which can result in high loses of values, after being given good advice to help you with this mess, you spit in the guys face and quote a few pages from Hoke's book to defend your position, trouble is you did not even understand the pages you quoted or you would see how wrong you are.

If you want help I expect first an apology to those who are trying to help.

I will not ban you at this point because I feel you do want to learn, and you let your pride cause you to put your big foot in your mouth, and you just do not understand, and I also know these guys can help you, if you need or want the help of the forum, or need help in understanding Hokes book, but to get this help you will need to give a sincere apology.


What happen? can be determined by what will happen next.

Think about it you have an opportunity here to learn, and learn from those who do understand, and are willing to help, and you can have these guys to help you understand learn to recover and refining, and know how not to waste your gold doing stupid things that you do not understand, or you can choose to study Hokes on your own, without the help of this forum hoping you understand it, and are not losing gold, or thinking you know everything and not worry about how much gold you throw away, the choice is yours, it is my hope you choose wisely, and which ever way you choose I wish you luck, but I will not let you talk to our members like you did above, that behavior is unacceptable on this forum

Butcher


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## butcher (Dec 1, 2012)

Geo,
I was impressed by your post above, when reading this thread I thought to myself of how far you have come in your understanding, and how well you explained it, I know you have worked very hard to gain that understanding, I also must say how much of a help you have been to others on the forum.
You have been doing a great job.

Thank you

(I am also sorry that reign21male did not have enough understanding to see it).


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## reign21male (Dec 1, 2012)

This whole conversion has been a misunderstanding from the start. I believe there have been too many assumpation and not enough questions or anwsers. 
First I want to thank you Andy for replying with the details and being the first people that seems to under what I was trying to convey. And that he recognized that the pan I was using wasn't large enough for the shots I was making. Which is just another example on to correct someone. Not tell them you didnt shot you did it wrong. However for reason or another you misquoted me. Earlier I was trying to explain a four part video I saw doing the same process with the exception of the gold filled and many some electric plated. Except what I said was that the guy in the video inquarts and uses nitric acid and then he uses AR and then add sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead. I also said that hokes said this was unnecessary. 
I work for a lab. I help 60 to 100 people a day. I have train many people over the years to many diffent jobs. This is what I take issue with first of all 
I had a question and obvious this if my first a time or I wouldn't have been here in the first place if I was 100% on the process. 
There basicly acouple of ways people learn. some by reading. some by hearing and last by doing. For me with this I need to see it as hokes also advised. There is a 1% chance that someone here has a eidetic memory. Or in layman's terms photographic memory.
Andy was the only one that seem to understand I was proving my method much like scientist or lawyers. I laid out my process and should proof of it working. To get someone I dont know to tell I'm wrong with out really explaining why it was wrong. And to get irrated with me when I defend my process with the same book he and other have same read the book. Then to be ganged up the same people that started out the same way I am. That isnt right. I read what geo said. I also add more info to give him a better understanding and also asked other questions that were not anwsered. In short you many have a process that you use time in again and there are several different ways to refine gold. But you can't tell me I'm wrong and not tell me why and expect me to understand after all I have presented to you. 
Regards


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## jimdoc (Dec 1, 2012)

reign21male said:


> This whole conversion has been a misunderstanding from the start. I believe there have been too many assumpation and not enough questions or anwsers.
> First I want to thank you Andy for replying with the details and being the first people that seems to under what I was trying to convey. And that he recognized that the pan I was using wasn't large enough for the shots I was making. Which is just another example on to correct someone. Not tell them you didnt shot you did it wrong. However for reason or another you misquoted me. Earlier I was trying to explain a four part video I saw doing the same process with the exception of the gold filled and many some electric plated. Except what I said was that the guy in the video inquarts and uses nitric acid and then he uses AR and then add sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead. I also said that hokes said this was unnecessary.
> I work for a lab. I help 60 to 100 people a day. I have train many people over the years to many diffent jobs. This is what I take issue with first of all
> I had a question and obvious this if my first a time or I wouldn't have been here in the first place if I was 100% on the process.
> ...



I think you still don't get it.

Jim


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## Geo (Dec 1, 2012)

oh man, you sure didnt have to do that. how very thoughtful of you to try and make me understand something that ive done myself many times and you couldnt do once. 

reign21male, i wasnt going to reply to this thread again but im not going to be insulted twice and keep quiet.i did try to help you and the advice i gave you is straight from the book you are quoting. you cant understand that there are steps to this process (as in step 1,step 2, step 3 and so on) and i was advising you on step one because i knew you didnt understand.i would have given you help with step two if you had done as i advised and straightened out the mess. as it is now, i wouldnt advise you on boiling water.

in response to the insults you have hurled my way, you can kiss my derriere.


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## reign21male (Dec 1, 2012)

And jim that is my point. there will all be be people that its something is wrong but wont tell you why? so tell me jim why is it wrong? what part is wrong and why? the video show the process so there is proof it works so tell JIm what part is wrong and why?


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## Geo (Dec 1, 2012)

Butcher, thank you for the kind words. i do try and help when i can. the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink is so very true.


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## reign21male (Dec 1, 2012)

After listening to you. I have no doubt you had missed my point. And You responsed in the way I figured you would. Take care geo. Maybe one day you look back at this and realize there was alot of miscommunication.


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## jimdoc (Dec 1, 2012)

reign21male said:


> And jim that is my point. there will all be be people that its something is wrong but wont tell you why? so tell me jim why is it wrong? what part is wrong and why? the video show the process so there is proof it works so tell JIm what part is wrong and why?



You are too set on proving yourself right, than to step back and look at everything again. Someone doesn't have to explain to you everything that makes what you did wrong. 

You keep mixing "this video" and Hoke's book to come up with your instructions, and disregarding any suggestions that you didn't make the right decisions in what you did.

You need to lose the attitude and entitlement of an explanation of what you did wrong, when you don't seem to want to admit that you did something wrong.

Jim


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## reign21male (Dec 1, 2012)

i'm not giving anyone a attitude. I asked a quest that hasnt been answered. I was try to get anwsers and instead. I get unhelpiful criticism. geo , marty? and you. You keep attacking me. when all i'm trying to due is understand. the first step was the nitric acid it reacted until it stopped. I thought it was done. my error was i did know that i would have to reapply a hot bath of nitric acid until it all dissolved. I thought the other materials were steel from the some the gold filled with i would remove later with a magnet. To me it made sense to AR. And I have see others do it as well.


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## reign21male (Dec 1, 2012)

and no jim. I'm not setting out to prove i'm right. Just trying to get some answers. If you told me the world was flat i would ask you to prove it. Thank is all


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## butcher (Dec 1, 2012)

reign21male.

No you still do not understand, about what Hoke was saying, or about what Geo was saying, and what others are saying, you took a material that would have been easy to process, and mixed in a trashy metal, that would cause many problems to begin with, you also did not understand Hoke saying if you done this, you would have to understand the problems this would cause, and understand how to deal with them (as she teaches in another section of her book), you did not understand that, and you did not understand how to deal with your mess, you used a wrong approach from the beginning, mixing these troublesome base metals with karat gold, and then used the wrong acid process to complicate the problem.

Then when Geo was giving good advice to try and help you get out of your problem and to understand why it was a problem, and others were trying to get you to see you did not understand what Hoke was saying, or what you were doing, your pride got in the way and put your foot in your mouth.

Now you are still trying to prove yourself right, and not trying to understand where you went wrong in the process, I do not feel anybody is attacking you, pride does not want to admit it is wrong, and can make a man more wrong, making a small mistake into a bigger mess.

You do need help understanding Hokes book if you expect to be successful at refining, you can do this making messes on your own and figuring out how to get out of them (with the help of Hoke's book) but it can cost a lot of wasted gold to use that approach.

You can admit you may have not understood what you were doing, or what Hoke was saying, and apologize for putting your foot in your mouth insulting those trying to help you, and get on with learning, with the help from others, who can help you get an understanding of what you read in Hokes.

Before you can fix what you done wrong, you would have to admit you have done wrong.
You have done Geo wrong, you think your being attacked, you are not being attacked, but your pride does not want to see it was wrong, and wants to justify the misunderstanding, and your insulting others who were just trying to help,
Geo was giving good advice; others were trying to get you to see that you did not understand, your comments were wrong, and insulting.

Before we can discuss the chemical problem I feel we need to fix this problem, before we can move forward to begin to get an understanding of the problem of the base metals and acids, and get an understanding what Hoke teaches.

Admitting you do not understand and apologizing for offending those trying to help, would go a long way, towards your goal of learning to refine your metals, and getting help in understanding these things you do not understand at this point.

I hope you understand, and we can put this behind us and get back to learning what Hoke’s has taught us.


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## eeTHr (Dec 1, 2012)

reign21male said:


> Then I could dissolve the gold with AR to remove and stubborn metals and ores that were left and clean the powder with nitric acid and then melt.



Did anyone mention that you shouldn't try to clean powder, which was precipited from AR, directly with nitric? (If you don't incenerate the powder first, it will contain trace amounts of HCl, even if rinsed several times, which will form AR and dissolve some of your gold.)

And that the best dilution of nitric with water, for dissolving silver or base metals the fastest, is about 50-50? (That would be if using standard concentrated nitric.)


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## reign21male (Dec 5, 2012)

Look my attention was not affend anyone. I felt like I asked a question and then I was taken the wrong way. Then I felt like i was being talked down to. In reality I was only a litte irrated by your comment geo. But what set me off was the addition comments for the the next two people. And I felt they were not being constructive, but just the opposite. So my attention really wasnt to offend and it wasnt to prove my process. All I wanted to know is what went wrong and why. 
-jason-


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## Palladium (Dec 5, 2012)

One of the wisest people i've ever had the privilege of learning from use to talk down to me. Did i like it? no! Did i learn from it? Yes! But only now that i look back do i understand the lesson he was teaching. I learned that their is even a reason why he did that. Humility in and of it's self is a learning experience and a tool. Not that anyone is talking down to you, but pride can be both a good as well as bad thing. When wise people speak now i keep my mouth shut and my ears open. Took me too long to learn that lesson and at what cost? I think if you will start over again and commit yourself to following step by step what these gentleman are trying to explain you will see the wisdom in it. The reason i know this is i owe every bit of my success in refining to the wisdom i have gathered here and if it was wrong i would not enjoy the success that i have had up until to this point. Welcome to the forum Jason!


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 5, 2012)

I'm thinking based on your English, or lack there of, the first thing you should do is appologise for not having good english and appologise if it sounds bad.
Just stating that would change alot of additudes toward your questions and comments. This might also be why you do not fully understand what you read in the book and so watched someone do something similiar to what you want. Then combined the 2 and added what you should Not have done. This part is what Geo is trying to help you out of but your reply sounded very nasty so of course, offense is taken. Re read what Geo wrote and try to understand what he said. It makes sense to me and I have no clue how he figured that much out.
BS.


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## nickvc (Dec 6, 2012)

Jason I feel in this case we may have had some language translation problems as no one on the forum will attack you without swift intervention from a moderator. You started well by beginning to read Hoke but you need to read the whole book several times to fully understand its value and not rely on any other resource than this forum for correct processes and methods to recover and refine, there are other sites linked to the forum to be trusted but you will find those through the forum. 
We have a unique site here with free advice and some of the finest minds, professional and amateur, in refining and been a member is a privilege not a right that should not be lightly taken. You can learn to process virtually all precious metals by virtually all the methods known here and it's free you just have to read and study the posts.
I hope you stay and understand how the forum works, no one is paid its all done to further the science and practice of recovery and refining of precious metals.
Welcome to the forum.


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## Geo (Dec 6, 2012)

Jason, explain this remark.


reign21male said:


> I see why new people seem to take issue with geo. And remember never say never.



also this,


reign21male said:


> I read what geo said. I also add more info to give him a better understanding and also asked other questions that were not anwsered.



you say you wasnt arguing to prove you were right, but you said this.


reign21male said:


> Andy was the only one that seem to understand I was proving my method much like scientist or lawyers.



please explain this the best you can and make me understand.


reign21male said:


> After listening to you. I have no doubt you had missed my point. And You responsed in the way I figured you would. Take care geo.



if you can explain this to me and make me understand why you meant no disrespect or was trying to insult me, we can get past this and get on with the task at hand. otherwise apologize for what looks like your insulting manner and we can move on from there. i cant speak for the other members you addressed before, but if you make me understand better, it will go a long way to ease the tension and you may get more help.


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## butcher (Dec 6, 2012)

Geo, I told Jason (reign21male), that you would be a big help to him if He apologized, for his comments, as you were just trying to help, (he misunderstood the comments and intentions) his pride got the best of him in his uneducated Ideas, and his misunderstanding of the processes, and of the intentions of those on the forum who were trying to help (in our unconventional way), thinking others were here downgrading him with answers to his post.

Geo, I also would like to see you and Jason work this out this misunderstanding between you two, and I also feel your offer to continue to help Jason once the air is cleared is a nice gesture towards that.

Jason, a simple apology is all that is needed, no one here was downgrading you, we can understand you do not know the chemistry, and you thought you know some things from what you have read before, we also all make mistakes, you misunderstood Geo and his and others intentions in their answers to your post, and said some things out of that, that should not have been said, here is your chance to start fresh with these guys, and give the forum a chance to see what kind of man you are, and give us on the forum to show you what kind of men we are, so we can all get back to helping each other, and leave this misunderstanding behind us.

I would like to see Jason and Geo, be able shake hands and put all of this behind them, then I bet we would all see a lot of good come from these two men helping each other learn, and becoming friends.


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## reign21male (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm sorry for the way I responsed to you. I misunderstood your intent. I was try understand why the disconnect between what I read and what you were telling me. Can we you please forgive me :?:


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## Geo (Dec 6, 2012)

apology accepted. feel free to ask what you need and if i can offer any advise, i will.

i came to the forum knowing very little about any of this and i understand the desire to want to know all of it and start working on everything at once. it takes patience to learn about this kind of thing. i read from a very wise man that said that learning refining is like a foot race, not quite a marathon but an endurance race. slow and steady and not a violent rush to the end. everything you want to learn is right here, just be patient and listen to what the people that have done it before tells you. remember, it only advise. you can listen and try to follow what was said or not listen and try it your own way but i promise you that you will do better by following advice from the people that know. 

and by the way, disregard what you learned on youtube. if it didnt come from the forum or at least a forum member, it shouldnt be considered reliable information.


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## reign21male (Dec 6, 2012)

Thank you for understanding my frustration. I will dissregard youtube as you advised. I decided much Like my talks with Butcher. I will hold my additional questions until later. But this is what as happen in last 5 days. My burner/hotplate died. So I try Hcl with the last of the pieces instead of heat from the burner I tried a boiling steam bath. I boiled some water and put it in the bucket I had my pyrex glass in and I'm guessing it wasnt enough heat because it didnt really react. The HLC just turned gray. So I deluted the soluation and decanted it. I later tried the nitric acid again 50/50. And it reacted for a long time and in the end there was were some small pieces that had not desolved so I deluted the mixture was starting to poor it off in my container and the little piece fell in. At that point I just added all the slug and power in the bottom of the my pyrex. Making sure I sprayed the container down to make sure I didnt leave anything behind. Since sunday I I have been trying to cement the soluation. By adding a couple of wheat stock pennies sense ther mostly copper and then I picked up a long copper tube that I also add to the mix and I have stirred it a couple of times a day. The solution is a very dense light blue until I stir it. And then it turns really gray. I was going to heat it up and add sulfuric acid to it to evaporate and to get rid of teh lead. But butcher said that would be a bad idea. So should I filter the solution and keep it. And melt up the remaining sediment minus the copper left over?


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## reign21male (Dec 6, 2012)

Oh I forgot. I ordered another burner and got it yesterday. I ordered more hcl and nitric from ebay 69.99 free shipping. I do have a little nitric and some HLC left just not alot. the acid will mostly should up monday. If I'm really lucky Saturday.


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## qst42know (Dec 6, 2012)

A small amount of tin in nitric makes a mess. A large amount makes a nightmare.

From the looks of it much of your "electric plate" was costume jewelery or plated pewter (mostly tin). If this is the case it will be a big project recovering any values.

You will get more accurate help if you can work on your word choices and spelling. It is very difficult when what you have written needs translated first. If this is due to a phone borrow a real key board please.


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## Geo (Dec 6, 2012)

when you are cementing, the cemented metal will be a powder in the bottom of the container. it will be colored but clear if undisturbed. when you stir it, the cemented metal will mix with the solution and color it grey. it sounds to me as if the cementation is complete. remove all the copper from the solution and rinse the pieces back into the solution. let the solution settle completely until it is clear again. draw off the clear fluid from the cemented powder. siphon or use a bulb type syringe to draw off the liquid. if you tilt the vessel and the powder swirls up, you can prop the container up on an object that will let the powder settle to one side.this will make it easier to remove the final bit. dont try to remove all the fluid as it will draw some of the powder up with it, so stop just at the powder. add clean water and heat. let the powder settle and repeat the prior process to remove the rinse water. the powder should be added to what ever metal you had left from before. do not do any more chemical processes with the material until you have consolidated all the metal.by now you have many different acids and salts in the mix. you must remove all the acids and as much salt as possible before you can continue to process this material.if you dont, you will be making the same mess you started with all over again. 

when you have all the metal together, melt it together. use a five gallon bucket with a metal pan in the bucket. fill the bucket with water. melt the metal and pour as small a stream as you can slowly into the water. this will "cornflake" it. move the metal to a glass container you can heat.add hcl and heat. let the metal stay in the hot acid for several hours making sure the acid does not evaporate dry.after the few hours is over,add a few drops of concentrated sulfuric acid (it doesnt take much to drop the small amount of lead there) after this, remove from the heat and rinse. dry the metal and weigh it. there is no way to calculate how much metal is gold and how much is something else. add enough silver to ensure the Karat is 6K or lower. even if you must assume the entire weight of the material is gold and add according to that. 

melt the material together and stir with a graphite rod. pour material into a five gallon bucket of water with a metal pan in the bucket. remove the metal and dry. you may weigh the material so you can weigh the recovered silver later and at least give you an idea of what it will take next time.

now the material is ready to dissolve in nitric acid. if you were successful in removing the tin and lead, the solution will be green and the gold will be a solid left whole in the bottom of the vessel.


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## reign21male (Dec 6, 2012)

Sorry about that. My computer was old and the motherboard died. My fingers are a bit big for my phone. And I'm trying to work on this and get all the presents put away, before I go get my daughter tomorrow after work. I have to travel about 3.5 hours every friday to pick her up and then about a 2.5 trip back. I pretty much hit rush hour in just about every county from here to her house. Just to turn around sunday and due it again. So for me, most of the weekend is spent driving. The rest with her and my wife. Until my daughter goes to sleep. I will make a effort in the future to use my wifes computer instead of my phone.


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## reign21male (Dec 6, 2012)

O.k, I started the process. I had to use a plastic ladle to remove the solution so I could get it low enough to remove the copper and miscellaneous pieces. I washed the the copper and the pieces off. Added the pieces and not the copper back into the solution. I have the container tilted. At this point I will have to stop and finish the rest tomorrow night. Here are some pictures. I'm not sure but I believe that roundish piece In the top picture bottom left in the cup is gold.


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## butcher (Dec 7, 2012)

While Geo is helping with the gold, I will hold back advice as much as I can, on that portion as two people may do things a little different I do not wish to confuse you, with my suggestions on that process.



Since Geo has not mentioned the solution, I will say something there.
Save it to add your washes and waste acids from solutions you will be using to get your gold, add that copper back to the barrel to help cement any values you miss, (anything of value that would cement on copper would, when you are finished with the solution and wish to see if solution holds dissolved gold, or possibly any elemental metal gold colloids that will not settle or would not cement out onto copper because they were already reduced to metal but would not settle.

Just incase some gold colloids are in that solution; here is a way I would test it.

Get your stannous chloride made up, take a small sample of the ugly green solution, in a casserole dish on a solid burner hot plate, add about 20ml of this solution to be tested, and add 5mL strong sulfuric acid, evaporate the solution down to salts then lower heat to dry the salt, raise the heat keep the salts crushed now with a propane torch get the powder red hot, if the dry powders fuse and become a syrup lower heat, (so it does not bubble and pop), but keep heating re-crush to powder and heat the powder red hot, in this heating process we drove off H2O then a HNO3, then HCl and finally H2SO4, the chloride powders went to sulfates and then we drove off the sulfate as SO2 gas when they became red hot leaving us with metal oxide powders. 

Now boiling these powder oxides in 10ml HCl, then add a tiny bit of water let powder settle and decant, and continue to rinse the powders with water till clear, if any powders are left it did not dissolve in HCl, they may contain value (if there were powders left lets see if they contain gold) if powders left now add a 10ml HCl and about 2ml bleach heat till fumes vapor off chlorine gas, dilute with a little water, dip a Qtip into the liquid, drop a drop of stannous chloride onto the Qtip, if it turns purple we will need get the gold out of this solution, if no gold was in this solution then we can add a piece of steel to the liquid to cement out copper and other metals, decant liquid from the copper, and neutralize the liquid with NaOH sodium hydroxide (lye) (caustic soda) to precipitate base metal oxides (raise pH to 9), till the solution is a clear salt water, decant this slat water from the metal oxides/hydroxides, dry these powders and the copper powders now solution and powders are safe to dispose of, dry powders in trash and clear salt water is safe for a sewer ( I like to keep my dry copper powders for other purposes).

“You don’t ask a easy task do ya buddy.”

Jason you are right, I do not try to make it easy, and sometimes the tasks are difficult, but if I did not feel you were man enough to handle them I would not suggest them, refining as you wll soon learn is not an easy task, not as easy as it seems it would be to you at this point, but it is worth it, and I think you can handle it, just be patient and take it easy, learning takes time and sometimes lessons are not easy, but then purity in our gold is worth it, and the education I feel is even worth more than the gold.


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## Geo (Dec 7, 2012)

i forgot to tell you. test all of your acid washes and rinses with stannous chloride before disposing of them. due to the unlikely chance that you dissolved some PM's in the wash, checking is always a good safety net so you dont throw away your values.


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## reign21male (Dec 7, 2012)

Thank you both for your help. I need help with what type of containers to get. Last night i was trying to make the stannous chloride. And when I went to remove the pyrex from the heat after about a mintue later It started cracking. I dont know if this is because it was pretty cold outside and the sudden temp change cause it crack or it's just not made for direct heat like the old ones. And suggestion on why kind of Glass ware will hold up?


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## nickvc (Dec 7, 2012)

Corning ware pyroceram if you can find it,GSP swears by it. Most modern Pyrex is rubbish for our purposes unless you use a containment dish incase of failures, putting any of it on direct heat is a no no, use a sheet of steel or a heat diffuser anything sensible to stop the element overheating your dishes and causing potential loses and chemical disasters.


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## reign21male (Dec 7, 2012)

Thank you Nickvc. I have some galvanized steel. And will look for the corning.


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## butcher (Dec 7, 2012)

I find I can do almost a whole processing the corning ware casserole dish almost from beginning to end, leaving the values in the pot almost the whole process, decanting solutions as needed with a suction bulb tool, my corning ware dish sits directly on a solid top cast iron burner electric hot plate, I can incinerate powders red hot with a torch with the dish on high heat, I do try to be a little careful about changing temperatures fast, but this dish is tough and takes a lot of abuse, I have read were some types of these dishes were better than others, the newer dishes I believe are said to not be made as well, as the older ones.

They make light violet or brownish color glass skillets or pots I think they call them vision corning, or vision ware they also work very well.

Automatic coffee maker coffee pots Pyrex like Mr. coffee work well if you are very careful with them.

Thick glass or uneven glass cannot take heating by direct heat in one area of the glass like the thin glass more made for heating will, glass canning jars would break if set on the electric hot burner, I find a one gallon pickle jar can be used to boil solutions in if surrounded by sand in a sand bath (not just sitting on a layer of sand), but with these extreme care of not changing temperature fast is important as thermal shock will cause them to break.


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## Geo (Dec 7, 2012)

i agree with Butcher. never use a measuring cup to process in. a coffee pot will work great in a pinch. you can boil in it if you need to.


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## reign21male (Dec 9, 2012)

updated


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## reign21male (Dec 9, 2012)

O.k I got my corning ware. It took 4 rinses on heat to get clear solution. As you can see the decanting has a lot of left over gray solution.I filtered the last rinse and dried out the power in the cassarole dish. Since I have no axcess to a cutting torch at the moment I tried mapp. But that wasn't really working. And other option since I might not have axcess to acetylene torch until next week?


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 9, 2012)

reign21male,

I've probably written about this 10 times. If people would search the forum before doing or buying anything, they would be a lot safer.

Never, ever, heat most any kitchen Pyrex on a hotplate. The only exception is a thin Pyrex glass coffee carafe. Even then, I would place it inside a CW Pyroceram dish in case it breaks.

The CW dish in your photos doesn't look like pyroceram and I really don't think it is. If it isn't, plan on it breaking, sooner or later. It looks exactly like one I bought a couple of years ago that broke the 2nd or 3rd time I used it. Unless you are 100% sure it is Pyroceram StoveTop, I would definitely stop using it on an electric hotplate (or a gas burner) unless you want a lap full of hot acid. If you're very lucky, you won't get burned and it will only destroy your hotplate.

All Corning Ware is not pyroceram and that that isn't will eventually break when heated directly, guaranteed. It works in a oven but not on a hotplate. Ask me how I know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corning_ware

All of the older CW pyroceram dishes I've seen have a design painted on them and most are square and white, like many in this eBay link. I see them everywhere in resale shops, flea markets, etc. I prefer the 5 quart deep ones. They're not marked as such but I've never seen CW dishes with any of these design on them that weren't pyroceram. When buying used ones, make sure the inside surface isn't scratched, cracked, chipped, or etched (rough). It should be very smooth all over.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=corning%20ware%20dishes&clk_rvr_id=423144869926

Some of the newer ones have a design and some don't. The newer pyroceram ones are called StoveTop, a CW trademark.
http://www.shopworldkitchen.com/corningware/stovetop-blue-cornflower-casserole-bf-5c-b

Corning Vision ware will also work fine but I don't like the shapes as well. CW stopped making it several years ago.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=vision%20ware%20corning&clk_rvr_id=423152342363

The CW Pyroceram and Vision Ware are the only kitchen type dishes I have ever found that will take direct heat without breaking. Never, ever, use a ceramic insert from a Crock-Pot on direct heat. It will break the first time you do it. Here again, ask me how I know.


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## butcher (Dec 9, 2012)

(As GSP posted make sure you have the right dish)
Test your dish on the hot plate before using it, heat up the empty dish raising the temperature gradually till the hot plate is on high, then take your propane torch and heat up the empty dish moving the flame around the dish to heat it evenly keep heating this dish with your torch for 20 to thirty minutes, turn off the torch, let the dish sit on the high heat burner for a couple of minutes now take a suction bulb full of water and run water down the insides of the hot dish from the top rim, run the water all around the inside rim of the top of the dish to cool the dish evenly, this water will boil as it runs down the inside washing the walls off of the dish, if your dish is good corning ware (pyroceram), it will take this abuse, be sure to wear safty glasses just incase you have the wrong type of dish, because it will most likely crack or break when heated with the torch, or cooled with the water.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 9, 2012)

butcher said:


> (As GSP posted make sure you have the right dish)
> Test your dish on the hot plate before using it, heat up the empty dish raising the temperature gradually till the hot plate is on high, then take your propane torch and heat up the empty dish moving the flame around the dish to heat it evenly keep heating this dish with your torch for 20 to thirty minutes, turn off the torch, let the dish sit on the high heat burner for a couple of minutes now take a suction bulb full of water and run water down the insides of the hot dish from the top rim, run the water all around the inside rim of the top of the dish to cool the dish evenly, this water will boil as it runs down the inside washing the walls off of the dish, if your dish is good corning ware (pyroceram), it will take this abuse, be sure to wear safty glasses just incase you have the wrong type of dish, because it will most likely crack or break when heated with the torch, or cooled with the water.


Speaking of heat diffusers, I recently bought a cheap one ($5 at Ace Hdwe.) to put under a pot and keep things like beans or stews from burning on my gas stove when simmering. The problem with it is that it will burn up and decompose with a high or even a medium heat flame. It's only made for simmering and it works great for that. I've used it several times and nothing has burned. Acid drips would soon detroy it, though. The one I got is the same as this but it has a steel sleeve on the wooden handle to keep it from burning.
http://www.amazon.com/Norpro-144-Heat-Diffuser/dp/B0000X6ESO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355080414&sr=8-2&keywords=heat+diffuser+range


They used to sell asbestos pads for this purpose. No longer, of course. For refining, I had a 5', 1" thick gas restaurant grill covered with about 1/8" asbestos cloth in a couple of places I worked. Best heating setup I've ever used. You could turn on just one burner at the end and have a wide spectrum of temperatures across the grill.

I researched the subject and concluded that the absolute best heat diffuser available, for any stove temperature, is a sheet of pure copper 1/8" thick. There's an ex-aerospace engineer that sells them on his website. They're not cheap. However, they could get chewed up with drips of the acids we use. Probably not applicable for refining (unless maybe teflon coated), but interesting, at least to me.
http://bellacopper.stores.yahoo.net/


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## Auful (Dec 9, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> I researched the subject and concluded that the absolute best heat diffuser available, for any stove temperature, is a sheet of pure copper 1/8" thick. There's an ex-aerospace engineer that sells them on his website. They're not cheap. However, they could get chewed up with drips of the acids we use. Probably not applicable, but interesting, at least to me.
> http://bellacopper.stores.yahoo.net/



Very cool. Thanks. I love it when, on a cooking implement website, a "Watts/Meter-Degree Kelvin" description is given! Engineers........


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## butcher (Dec 9, 2012)

Old houses had siding that was made out of asbestos, these square sheets of thin asbestos can be used for lining a fume hood or a heat diffuser (be sure to wet it when cutting and do not use a saw to create dust, scoring it and breaking it is a safer method).

I have a few asbestos pads used in the kitchen's to sit hot pots on, I find these in second hand stores, the asbestos pad has an thin iron metal on top that the pad can be removed from. 

My hot plate is solid cast iron burner; I have had no trouble sitting my pyroceram dish directly on it, if your using a hotplate with a coil burner a heat spreader would be a must.

Copper is just too reactive with the messes I make.

I believe GSP used an electric skillet (electric grill), I have not used one, and I am not sure how well they distribute the heat evenly on the grill, from the ones I have seen they use a loop welded to the bottom with a nichrome heater, so they may not distribute heat evenly or as well as the solid cast iron hot plates I use that use, which uses a nichrome heating loop that spirals evenly in groove under the cast iron burner to heat the cast iron evenly.


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## butcher (Dec 9, 2012)

http://bellacopper.stores.yahoo.net/metheattrans.html

looks like a sheet of silver for diffuser would work when working with chloride solutions, but I think I would propable just want to use it in a melt with gold, instead of using it to spread heat. :lol:


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 9, 2012)

Auful said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > I researched the subject and concluded that the absolute best heat diffuser available, for any stove temperature, is a sheet of pure copper 1/8" thick. There's an ex-aerospace engineer that sells them on his website. They're not cheap. However, they could get chewed up with drips of the acids we use. Probably not applicable, but interesting, at least to me.
> ...



After reading the defrosting capabilities of the copper on that site, I tried defrosting a big loaf of bread by placing it on a thick (about 1/16") commercial aluminum cookie sheet. I put the cookie sheet on top of the gas range (no burners turned on, of course) just to get some air flow under it. It took about an hour, as opposed to the normal 2-4 hours. Besides copper and the PMs, Al is the best metal heat conductor I know of, but it could melt on a hot hotplate. Been there, done that.


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## NoIdea (Dec 9, 2012)

Geo said:


> ......... you should study a process before you try it.



Oh sure, now you tell me :!:


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## Palladium (Dec 9, 2012)

I love it when Chris speaks from experience. You can't by that on Ebay folks! 8) 
I use the GE hotplate and pyroceram. It's what i'm use to and it works perfect for me even as i seem to be scaling up. I've wanted to try the griddle thing one time just to see and when i built my lab i also wanted to add something but never got to. On the next one i build i want to add a pyroceram stove cook top like on a normal kitchen stove. Haven't found one made of pyroceram yet, but they do make them. They also have other types of glass that is engineered that they use, but i want the name brand. The lid of the stove lifts off and you can cut a hole in the counter top and set it in place like a sink. Build a small containment lip around the whole thing about an inch high or so and use the whole surface for heating, drips, boil overs, or spills.


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## reign21male (Dec 11, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> reign21male,
> 
> I've probably written about this 10 times. If people would search the forum before doing or buying anything, they would be a lot safer.
> 
> ...



Thank for all the info GSP. I was going to add links about that as well. The dish was a temp until my other dishs came. They are marked with the burner symbol and they are stamped pyroceram. I did pick up one tan CW fraying pan and One tan sauce pan.


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## reign21male (Dec 11, 2012)

butcher said:


> While Geo is helping with the gold, I will hold back advice as much as I can, on that portion as two people may do things a little different I do not wish to confuse you, with my suggestions on that process.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks Butcher. So far since I cant finish Geo's process. Until I can get a cutting torch. I made up so stannous chloride. Dissolved so 10k and tested it.
Is it suppose to be that dark?


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## reign21male (Dec 11, 2012)

After a little while it started looking a little like dark purple.


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## reign21male (Dec 11, 2012)

Here is a later picture of it. After it dried. And the secomd Qtip was teh green blue solution. The grey solution went clear when tested.


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## butcher (Dec 11, 2012)

Jason,
Good job with the stannous chloride, the more gold in solution the darker the violet color.


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## reign21male (Dec 23, 2012)

Geo said:


> when you are cementing, the cemented metal will be a powder in the bottom of the container. it will be colored but clear if undisturbed. when you stir it, the cemented metal will mix with the solution and color it grey. it sounds to me as if the cementation is complete. remove all the copper from the solution and rinse the pieces back into the solution. let the solution settle completely until it is clear again. draw off the clear fluid from the cemented powder. siphon or use a bulb type syringe to draw off the liquid. if you tilt the vessel and the powder swirls up, you can prop the container up on an object that will let the powder settle to one side.this will make it easier to remove the final bit. dont try to remove all the fluid as it will draw some of the powder up with it, so stop just at the powder. add clean water and heat. let the powder settle and repeat the prior process to remove the rinse water. the powder should be added to what ever metal you had left from before. do not do any more chemical processes with the material until you have consolidated all the metal.by now you have many different acids and salts in the mix. you must remove all the acids and as much salt as possible before you can continue to process this material.if you dont, you will be making the same mess you started with all over again.
> 
> when you have all the metal together, melt it together. use a five gallon bucket with a metal pan in the bucket. fill the bucket with water. melt the metal and pour as small a stream as you can slowly into the water. this will "cornflake" it. move the metal to a glass container you can heat.add hcl and heat. let the metal stay in the hot acid for several hours making sure the acid does not evaporate dry.after the few hours is over,add a few drops of concentrated sulfuric acid (it doesnt take much to drop the small amount of lead there) after this, remove from the heat and rinse. dry the metal and weigh it. there is no way to calculate how much metal is gold and how much is something else. add enough silver to ensure the Karat is 6K or lower. even if you must assume the entire weight of the material is gold and add according to that.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the wait in the updated. My brothers shop cuuting torch is not a option anymore. However my wifes friend bought me a bernzomatic oxygen kit for my bday. It takes a bit of time to get it to work right, but for 50.00 bucks not bad. I had to do the pours at two different times it was really hard to get the mess hot enough to melt and get it out of the crucible. There is more shots then what is in this picture. about twice to 3 times that amout. How do I clean my crucible? It made it really hard to get a good melt. I was thinking once cleaned I would redo the melt. Question with the HLC will it get rid of the iron or steel that is in it? I ran a magnetic over the shots. And it some of it was magnetic. Thanks and Merry Christmas everyone.


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## maynman1751 (Dec 23, 2012)

I think you need a new crucible. It looks like you used way too much borax. That dish is a mess. Go to Lazersteves site and order a couple new ones. They're pretty inexpensive and you need a clean dish to melt properly. Read up on the proper seasoning of your melting dish. Just a thin glaze is all that is needed.
Also it looks like you have way too much crud in with your shot.


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## Geo (Dec 23, 2012)

i think thats all the solids left from the earlier process. try melting it with a mix of borax, sodium carbonate and charcoal. that will reduce any oxidized metal back to elemental form. stir with your graphite or carbon rod to mix it well. do you have a cone mold? if not, a piece of angle iron with a flat plate welded to the end or a boxed piece of steel will work. use a candle to soot the metal and pour the mix into a corner. all the metal will puddle in the bottom and the slag will float on top. when it cools, you can tap it with a hammer and the slag will break off. that will give you clean metal to work with again.


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## reign21male (Dec 23, 2012)

Thanks geo. I have some Chapman's flux. It has all three. I did boil some nitric acid in the crucible. It removed a good bit as far as steel or cone shape I don't. I saw a iron cone shape mold once when I was a kid. It was in a wielding shop. I think I can shape some galvanized steel into a box shape. Either way once I clean or get a clean crucible. I will begin the HLC bath with my shots. To remove the tin and then in quart. I will post pictures or results.


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## butcher (Dec 23, 2012)

A cast iron pipe plug 1 1/4" can be drilled out to make a good little cone mold, soot it before use.
Caution do not use galvanized steel.


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## reign21male (Dec 23, 2012)

Thanks butcher. Can I use coal for soot?


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 23, 2012)

I don't think soots much does it? I think someone said to use a candle?....Hold it over the candle and the Black soot should coat everything needed....If I'm right... Your torch might soot if you have a lean flame...not enough O2...

BS.
Glad you/we can get all this help....


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## reign21male (Dec 24, 2012)

Oh I see. Thanks


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## reign21male (Dec 24, 2012)

O.k I tried the flux and I managed to get a little more of the mess out. It's not clean! However I did get some more gold and silver out of it. Whic is always a plus. I have decided to put the crucible a side until I get some money together and get a really cutting torch. So i'm ordering another crucible and once I get it I will Start my boil the melts in HCL. 
Merry Christmas


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## maynman1751 (Dec 24, 2012)

Sounds like a wise plan. Keep us posted.


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## reign21male (Dec 29, 2012)

O.k I didnt have enough HLC acid to boil for hours. I did manage to boil it for 1hr. That took 1 qt. I did add a little 93% sulphic acid to it. Do I need to order more HLC or can I use something cheaper? Anyone know where I can get this set up from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGjd7xxTuZw. I would like to make my on HLC.


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## reign21male (Dec 30, 2012)

O.K I see the rust which means still other metals. I ordered another qt of HCL I hope that will be enough. I would still like to get a chem set with a back flow and regulator. Does anyone know where i can get one. or a easier way to make HCL? Or a cheap sub for the HCL?


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## Geo (Dec 30, 2012)

reign21male said:


> O.K I see the rust which means still other metals. I ordered another qt of HCL I hope that will be enough. I would still like to get a chem set with a back flow and regulator. Does anyone know where i can get one. or a easier way to make HCL? Or a cheap sub for the HCL?



do you live outside the US? muriatic acid from any hardware or home improvement store will carry it. it is also used as deck cleaner and cement/concrete etchant/cleaner.some pool supply stores carry it as pool cleaner.


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## reign21male (Dec 30, 2012)

Geo said:


> reign21male said:
> 
> 
> > O.K I see the rust which means still other metals. I ordered another qt of HCL I hope that will be enough. I would still like to get a chem set with a back flow and regulator. Does anyone know where i can get one. or a easier way to make HCL? Or a cheap sub for the HCL?
> ...


Nice thanks geo. I live in Maryland so that will be a easier and cheaper option. Now I don't have to wait so long to get my chemicals. Thank you


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## Geo (Dec 30, 2012)

no problem.


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## reign21male (Dec 30, 2012)

Which is better pick? http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&keyword=muriatic%20acid&Ns=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=Search+All


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 30, 2012)

None of those are suitable. The "safer" Klean-Strip muriatic is too weak according to the comments. What you want is muriatic of about 31% hydrochloric acid with no additives. Keep looking.


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## reign21male (Dec 30, 2012)

Ok thanks


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 30, 2012)

Here's an example of what you want from Loews. Click on Enlarge to read the label. They probably have it at Home Depot but it's not on their website. Any large hardware store would probably have it, often in the paint department. Pool supply stores also. Sears? Walmart? Call around. Avoid brands that say things like "Safer", "low fume", etc. You just want plain old 20 Baume', 31.45% (usually - some brands might vary slightly from this).
http://www.lowes.com/pd_206474-34228-CR.MA.P.01_0


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## reign21male (Dec 30, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> Here's an example of what you want from Loews. Click on Enlarge to read the label. They probably have it at Home Depot but it's not on their website. Any large hardware store would probably have it, often in the paint department. Pool supply stores also. Sears? Walmart? Call around. Avoid brands that say things like "Safer", "low fume", etc. You just want plain old 20 Baume', 31.45% (usually - some brands might vary slightly from this).
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_206474-34228-CR.MA.P.01_0


Thank you. I just saved a bunch of money and I didn't even have to switch geico. I found that same brand at the tracker and supply company. 20 Jaime 31.45 HCL. Cost me like 11.00 a gal soo cheap.


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## reign21male (Dec 30, 2012)

Question how will I know if I got all the base metals out? Like tin, lead and steel from the boiling? Will they dissolve or when I add the sulphuric acid will it drop as white pieces or some other identifiable so I don't metal it back again.


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## Geo (Dec 30, 2012)

if you can, melt and cast into one piece. it would help if you knew someone that could roll it for you. if not, any machine shop will roll it out for you for a small fee. since its a small amount, you may can sweet talk them into doing it for free if you tell them what its for. as flat as possible. cut into ribbons and give it a hard boil in hcl. this should remove the tin. dont worry about any other base metal. weigh any solids from this and add 3X the weight in silver. digest in 50/50 nitric and water. next time you will know.


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## reign21male (Jan 1, 2013)

o.k here is the update. Since I couldnt get it rolled and cut. I remelted to try and pour thinner pieces. What I notice was that almost all of it melted with propane. Where before I would get molten slush. I notice on the last batch there was some small grains or pebbles with the flakes. When I tried to melt it the grains would amber quick, but wouldnt melt. So all the other piece melted and then created a molten slush. I didnt have 3 time the silver weight I had almost twice the weight. I hope it is enough. Here are some pictures so far.


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## Geo (Jan 1, 2013)

ok, so this is nitric or hcl? if its hcl, it seems as though the tin has been removed.if its nitric,i dont see any metastannic acid.if it IS nitric, i would digest what is there in AR and precipitate the gold from there and start over.


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## reign21male (Jan 1, 2013)

So I guess I should have said that. O.k here is the newest updated. I boiled the metals in 50/50 nitric acid and it dissolved everything. I used 50/50 nitric acid and water total of 24 oz of solution. Now its dark purple. Here is what is left. Why is it dark purple? Is the power gold?


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## reign21male (Jan 1, 2013)

O.k after letting it set. The dark purple on the left only had a alittle water, the one in the middle was very deluted and the blue green one was deluted about three times it's orginal solution. So I have now dumped the darkest solution into a bigger container and add alot of hot water. so here are the pictures.


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## Geo (Jan 1, 2013)

the powder should be gold. the purple can be silver. i didnt know that silver made a purple stain until Harold informed me that it can. test all the solution with stannous chloride to be sure. if you melted the material and did not use any chlorides and only nitric, you should not have dissolved any gold. the glassware that you used, did you use hcl in it before using with the nitric acid? you have to be careful about cross contamination.


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## reign21male (Jan 1, 2013)

Geo said:


> the powder should be gold. the purple can be silver. i didnt know that silver made a purple stain until Harold informed me that it can. test all the solution with stannous chloride to be sure. if you melted the material and did not use any chlorides and only nitric, you should not have dissolved any gold. the glassware that you used, did you use hcl in it before using with the nitric acid? you have to be careful about cross contamination.


Test done Qtips turned milky white.


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## reign21male (Jan 1, 2013)

Oh and no. I used a diffent pan. So even if I washed it would it containment it?


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## Geo (Jan 1, 2013)

milky white is silver nitrate converting to silver chloride. incinerate before you wash with hcl. remember, you cant wash out the nitric acid even with boiling water.


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## reign21male (Jan 1, 2013)

Ok just so I have it straight I need to decant risen the power. Then I need to cement out the silver ? Remelt all the powder. Do you think there is still tin or lead?


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## Geo (Jan 1, 2013)

the powder is your gold. that is your main concern. the silver isnt going anywhere. take the powder and rinse in boiling water. dry the powder and incinerate it (bring it to a red hot state) that will remove all the nitrates from the powder. after that, you can rinse with hcl and follow with water. dry and melt the powder into a button and test for purity. after all this, you will have either clean gold or a known metal to work with.

now the silver nitrate solution. filter the solution and rinse water. keep them separated. let it settle if you need to to get the solution clear (transparent). add a heavy piece of copper. the silver will drop out of solution no matter how diluted the solution is.


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## reign21male (Jan 1, 2013)

Geo said:


> the powder is your gold. that is your main concern. the silver isnt going anywhere. take the powder and rinse in boiling water. dry the powder and incinerate it (bring it to a red hot state) that will remove all the nitrates from the powder. after that, you can rinse with hcl and follow with water. dry and melt the powder into a button and test for purity. after all this, you will have either clean gold or a known metal to work with.
> 
> now the silver nitrate solution. filter the solution and rinse water. keep them separated. let it settle if you need to to get the solution clear (transparent). add a heavy piece of copper. the silver will drop out of solution no matter how diluted the solution is.



Ok I see thanks. That means I should almost be finished this process. Happy New Year.


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## reign21male (Jan 10, 2013)

So I have been MIA. I will be on later with a update.


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## reign21male (Jan 11, 2013)

Sorry for the long wait. my phone had issues and all the pictures are gone. So this is what I have done. I didnt boil the powder. I must have gotten a head of myself. I did incinerate the powder and washed in HCL and then filtered it. The powder was red and so was the acid I filtered. Trying to melt it was hard turning into red slug. I ended up heating it and scraping out with my carbon rod. And I started think this crucible isnt that small and there isnt that much here compared to the four times I filled it when I started. So I looked in my 5 gallon water bucket and collected all the flux pieces that had some silver and gold? So I remelted that and poured it in my bucket, so I could see what I have total. The stuff in the bucket the missed the metal bowl didnt react to my strong magnet. The reprocesssed red powder mix is magnetic. Each have gold and silver swirls and alitte of the rainbow coloring. And I cemented out a bunch of silver . so I put the not magnetic in a bag and left the other in the bowl. I think Butcher was right about the colloidal gold. Which I will be testing that process sunday. It supposed to get in the 60's it will give me a chance to working on that. Any Idea why the red? Here are some new picks.


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## reign21male (Jan 11, 2013)

here is an other photo


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## reign21male (Jan 12, 2013)

o.k I have taken the silver and melted it down. I thought there would have been more then what came out, But not as important as what I found. There must have been alittle AR in the wash because some of my silver is gold and some dark red. Any idea what the red is.


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## reign21male (Jan 12, 2013)

Well it turns out that today was a good day to be outside. So I started checking my solution. I have to say I'm not sure if there is gold there were flakes that the HCL didnt dissolve. The qtip was yellow dripped some stannous chloride and there looks like two spots turn dark. If there was AU or PM's wouldn't the whole Qtip turn dark? Here are some pixs of teh process. Just so you know when the acid cleared there was more powder then what you can see here. What do you think?


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## butcher (Jan 12, 2013)

The Q tip does look like there may be some gold (violet spot), I am not sure why it did not wet the whole Q tip, the yellow only seems to be on one side, also you can test your stannous chloride, as it has a shelf life, and can go bad.
The red metal in the filter could be copper; actually it looks like you have a wide range of metals there.
The red in your solution could be iron. Iron can alloy with gold when melted with gold, the red powder is likely iron oxide / hydroxide (which will not easily dissolve even in strong acids), the red Iron powder will be nonmagnetic (hematite). unless roasted which can then be convert it to magnetite, it can be reduced to iron metal in a melt (although usually not easily without a reducing flux, but in a mess of metal in the melt, the other base metals may take the oxidation, and reduce some of iron in the melt.

Being magnetic confirms iron in solution (red powder rouge iron hydroxide),after melted became magnetic, put this magnetic metal in your stock pot.

The other metal pieces may look like silver or gold, but these will most all be alloys, of each of these metals and a big possibility with other base metals, once you separate the iron magnetic material, and incinerate and treat the powders for tin (HCl boil and washing) neutralize them with NaOH sodium hydroxide solution, then wash well in hot water, dry and incinerate the powders again, to remove chloride salt traces from the powders.

From here I would add all the metals and pretreated powders and metal (except magnetic pieces), and add some sterling scrap and melt them, pour shot, and start over with 50%:50% 70% nitric acid : H2O, to remove silver and base metal.....


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## reign21male (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks butcher. It turns out yesterday was the better day. Today turnout rainy. Oh one more thing after rinsing the pot I reswabbed it, and it took a couple of minutes but the swab turned a light purple. I was thinking maybe, because the solution sat for a month maybe most of the tin/gold started to settle. Which may explain why its not green anymore but light blue.
How should I process the solution? Should I calculate how much solution I have and add the same ratio of sulfuric acid. Like in the last time to check for gold?


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## butcher (Jan 13, 2013)

reign21male,
I am sorry I am kind of lost here; I am not sure what solution you are talking about.

If this is a collided solution that at one time tested for gold,(a solution of gold contaminated by tin, it would probably have reduced more gold from solution over time. And so it can have less gold dissolved in solution, but with tin in solution it will easily reduce gold back to metal, the problem is it may not settle, but stay suspended, as negatively and positively charged particles repelling each other, the thing is these gold colloids will not show up in our stannous chloride test.

The way our tin chloride (stannous chloride) test works is it reduces our gold back to metal colloids, these gold metal particles do not settle, and to our eye we see a violet color by their reflection of light, If gold is already reduced to metal the stannous will not test for it,the tin in our stannous chloride cannot reduce gold that is already a metal. 

Oxidize = lose of electrons 
Reduction = gain of electrons

Colloidal solution’s can be hard to deal with, how I deal with them is usually dictated by how bad they are.
First if you can let solution settle well, so as much insoluble material is on bottom, decant solution try to filter it, if it filters easy you do not have a problem with tin or colloids.

But if it filters very slow or not at all, and you once had gold in solution with tin, you will have gold in this colloidal mess.
Sometimes you can filter out the bulk with filters like fiberglass Charmin plugs in a funnel (these can be incinerated later), and then filtering solution to catch more insoluble’s with finer filters.

Sometimes boiling with a strong acid solution (sulfuric acid), will help to break the colloids, and let things settle so can collect them.

Sometimes the mess is so bad about the only way to deal with it is to evaporate everything down to powders dry and incinerate it red hot.

Once we get these tin and gold and other metals out of solution we do not want to put them back into solution, until after we oxidize the tin, by the incineration process, wash in boiling HCl with hot water washes (to dissolve the tin oxides as best we can), you can read more details of this process in Harold’s posts he has explained this many (many) times.

Your filters can also be incinerated the same time or saved up.

Also if we wish to use nitric acid on the remaining powders (to remove silver, or base metals), we will have to remove the chloride from them first to do this we can wash, I use a NaOH sodium hydroxide wash in solution to help oxidize the base metals in the powders, the sodium will also form salt water NaCl from the chlorides with the sodium, which can be washed out with hot water, the reason I do this is gold with chlorides can be somewhat volatile at the roasting temperature, and removing as much of the chlorides before can help us from lose of gold in the smoke.
Once well washed these powders can be dried and incinerated, sometimes dry crushed powders will fuse while raising the temperature, becoming like a thick bubbling syrup, when this occurs lowering heat and keeping stirred can help from forming big popping bubbles, which will splash stuff out.

There are a few other tricks I use, do not fill the whole pot (having molten syrupy powders in the pot like an egg, I can get the pan hotter, and stir them around cooking off acids without bubbles popping, 

Another trick when I am incinerating large batches is to add some of the previously incinerated powders to the syrupy fused powders, this remove some of the acids or liquids from the syrup, and allows me to dry out the whole batch under higher heat and stirring, without hot syrupy bubbles splashing things out of the pot.

The powders will not always fuse, but when they do they will dry out again with more heating, they will also get hard if dried, I normally let them get almost dried (but not all the way), and re-crush them back to powder, I used a big piece of thick Pyrex glass (old boiler sight glass), for a pestle to crush the lumps to powder, the heat is raised to red hot, keeping the powder stirred, and exposed to air, the metal powders red hot in air oxidize, this will help make the metals to be more easily dissolved in acids later.

If this does not apply to what solution your talking about, then I guessed wrong and I do not know what to say.


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## reign21male (Jan 13, 2013)

Yes you hit the nail on the head. And you let know I wasn't necessarily wrong with possible colloidal gold settling to the bottom. I think I will boil it down in small batchs with sulfuric acid. Thanks for the help. I will get started once weather permits.


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## reign21male (Feb 2, 2013)

It's been cold and snowing so I haven't gotten to cook down the solutions to powered yet for the collide gold. I did filtered it and burnt my filters and got about 22 grams for gold and silver mix button. It tested for 9k. I put it in with my non magnetic lot.
Which brings me to this question here. I have around 75 grams of what I hope to be just inquarted gold and silver. I know I need 300 ml of nitric acid for ever tzo. So I would need over 700 ml of acid. Will this substitute work? 
IN A WIDE-MOUTH GALLON GLASS JAR OR GLASS JUG POUR IN 1 QUART OF SODIUM NITRATE. ADD 1 TO 1.5 CUPS OF WATER AND LET IT SIT OVERNIGHT.(12 HOURS) THEN FILL THE CONTAINER 3/4 FULL WITH SULFURIC ACID (BATTERY ACID/ ELECTROLITE - AVAILABLE FROM AUTO-PARTS STORES)

LET THE MIXTURE SIT FOR 24 HOURS, STIRRING THE MIXTURE EVERY 8 HOURS. (THE SODIUM NITRATE WILL NOT DESOLVE COMPLETELY)

YOU NOW HAVE A HOMEMADE NITRIC ACID THAT IS APPROX 70% AS STRONG AS FULL STRENGTH NITRIC. STIR THE MIX DAILY AND JUST ADD MORE SULFURIC ACID AFTER YOU POUR OFF THE MIXED ACID. Will this work or be strong enough to do the job? 

Nitric is just getting too expensive.
Thanks in advance.


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## Anonymous (Feb 12, 2013)

reign21male said:


> I know I need 300 ml of nitric acid for ever tzo


.
The last time I checked, it takes 1.17ml of Nitric Acid, along with the same amount of water to dissolve 1 gram of silver. So, to dissolve 1ozT of silver, you would need 36.387 ml of Nitric Acid and the same amount of water, for a total of 72.774ml of solution. Also, from what I've read, if you heat the Nitric, it'll dissolve even more silver.

Kevin


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## reign21male (Feb 13, 2013)

testerman said:


> reign21male said:
> 
> 
> > I know I need 300 ml of nitric acid for ever tzo
> ...



I meant to correct that. Thank you for doing it for me. And as for the recipe Butcher was kind enough to add me on it. It isn't all that it claims to be. thanks to Kevin and Butcher


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## reign21male (Feb 13, 2013)

Butcher, I ran into a problem when I was evaporating 8 QTs of waste looking for colloidal gold. At the end my pot over flowed so i poured baking soda on the spillage and scraped it up and put it in the pot with the last of my waste solution. It foamed up and got syrupy like yopu said it would but after a short time with the torch it looks like this. Here are pictures of what I filtered out. Should I boil this with water or HCL?


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## Geo (Feb 13, 2013)

Jason, when you neutralized the acid, all the metals came out of solution. what you have now is all the metals mixed up again. i would crush and powder the mass you have and screen it very fine. give it a hard boil in hcl to remove as much oxide as you can.alternate hcl bath and water rinse until the hcl stays clear. then process any remaining solids in AR and test with stannous for values. also test the first hcl bath for values as well.


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## reign21male (Feb 13, 2013)

Geo said:


> Jason, when you neutralized the acid, all the metals came out of solution. what you have now is all the metals mixed up again. i would crush and powder the mass you have and screen it very fine. give it a hard boil in hcl to remove as much oxide as you can.alternate hcl bath and water rinse until the hcl stays clear. then process any remaining solids in AR and test with stannous for values. also test the first hcl bath for values as well.



Thanks geo I will get started on that asap.


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## butcher (Feb 13, 2013)

Nitric acid and baking soda, fist gives sodium nitrate and a carbonic acid:
HNO3 + NaHCO3 --> NaNO3 + H2CO3
Then:
NaNO3 + H2CO3 --> NaNO3 + H2O + CO3 gas

So we see here you also formed a nitrate salt in your powders.

This is not considering other acidic metal salts in the mix or other reactions, which would be involved.
As Geo stated you would drop most all of the metals from solution from adjusting the pH, and you can also form other salts, and in the evaporation, you will also concentrate, to further precipitate metal salts.

When you say this is what this what your material looks like after a short time under the torch, and you show a wet gray powder in the filter in the picture.

It sounds to me like you were working towards incineration, but a short time under the torch to me does not sound like you had a completed the process of incineration, unless you got these powders to glow red hot, keeping them crushed and stirred to oxidize them, keeping them glowing red hot, until no smoke of acid or carbon based material leaves the powders, and allowing the powders to get hot enough to glow red hot and long enough to oxidize completely the base metals in the powders, which can take time at this high red heat, to drive off acids from the salts as gas (many times noticeable by a color change in the powders as the powders oxidize).

So for some reason I feel you may have torched the powders a little, but I wonder if you actually gave them a good roast or incineration, which would actually improve what your working with, and oxidize these powders.

First make sure you did incinerate them well, if you did not I would redo that process, getting them glowing red hot, and keeping them red hot about a half hour...

It looks like you filtered these powders (which would help to wash out some of the acid salts or soluble metals.

At this point (since I do not believe these to be roasted well), I would put filter and powders in a ceramic casserole dish on the hot plate solid burner, slowly raise heat to dry the powders, raise heat as they are dried keeping powders stirred and crushed to powders, a Pyrex pestle works good to crush the powder, raise heat but (keep heat low enough to prevent forming gas bubbles that will pop and splash powders or syrup out of dish), continue till powders give off no gases, then when powders completely dried and crushed with hot plate on high heat from below use the torch from above (keeping powders crushed and stirred) make the powders glow red hot and keep them red hot and stirred for long enough time to drive off all acids or other salts and oxidize the base metals in oxygen (or air) stirring them well to get good exposure, glowing red hot for 30 minutes or longer at a glowing red heat.

Turn down hot plate to cool powders, spray the dish with a mist from a water bottle to wash sides of the dish down add water to cover the powders give a boil in water, lower heat and let powders settle, remove the water wash after powders settle well put keep water hot, decant wash water from dish with suction bulb tool and pipette, if this water is highly colored with metals repeat water boil wash and decant till water comes off fairly clear.

Leaving powders in the dish cover with HCL, raise heat a little at a time till at a slow boil, keeping powders stirred well and crushing out any lumps, give this a good long boil to dissolve some of the metal base oxides, as metal chlorides, and converting some like silver or lead to chlorides as well, lower heat add just a small amount of water (we do not want to dilute this acid too much, but we also do not want to pick up silver later if left too concentrated) let powders settle well but keep it as warm as you can without the heat stirring the powders, after it has settled well decant this acid wash with your suction bulb tools while still hot to pick up lead chloride, tin chlorides and other base metal chlorides, the this liquid is decanted to a cooling and settling jar (you may see lead crystals form in this jar as solution is cooled, there also may be traces of value carried over to this jar,
(So I normally save these to process later when I collect a jar full of these powders).
If this HCl wash is highly colored with metals I repeat the HCl wash.

Again powders stay in the dish all the time.

Then I give boiling hot water washes until these washes come clear, and I no longer am picking up metals like lead, following the techniques described above.

This helps to remove many of the trouble some metals, like tin, lead, and base metals oxides as chlorides.

From here I will process a couple of different ways depending how much, and what I have left in these powders.

Much depends what I am dealing with, and what I wish to do with it or how I plan to process it.

If much copper or other base metal I may go to an acid peroxide process to remove more base metals (but leaving my more valuable powders) being careful not to dissolve gold or remove the fluffy silver when I decant.

Or for a material with higher grade powders of gold and silver and possible PGM I may just dissolve silver and palladium and copper and so on in nitric acid, letting powders settle well before decanting these metals to a jar, settled and filtered before cementing values out this solution with a copper metal buss bar, then the powders left in the dish would go to aqua regia to put gold into solution.

Or if the material was just gold which was in high content to base metal and silver I may just go for the gold, using HCl/NaClO bleach (easier to deal with) or using aqua regia

I normally keep powders in the dish on the hot plate from beginning of the process till the end of the process, as much as possible, decanting solutions with suction tools as the metals dissolve into solution, depending on what these decanted solutions are is how they are processed, most of the time they are decanted to settling jars, let sit for a long period of time till solution is clear, then solution is decanted and filtered before being further processed.

The remaining powders in my dish after all of this may contain sand, or maybe even some PGM or other undissolved valuable metal, just because it did not dissolve I do not consider it invaluable, depending on what I am working on these insoluble powders may go to a plastic coffee can with other material to be incinerated and processed again later, the scrap in this bucket may contain many other things like IC chips, ceramic capacitors bits of filter scrap and other material which may hold some value.

The goal is to incinerate the troublesome metal powders driving off all previous acids or salts to oxidize the metals that will oxidize, then remove these troublesome metals in washes, also removing the base metals, and then put only the valuable metals in solution, and to process each of these solutions to recover them for values for further refining.

The Idea is also a one pot heating vessel continued reaction and process reaction from beginning to end, keeping powders in the pot as much as possible, and just removing dissolved liquids to remove troublesome metals and base metals in washes,(although several jars are used) keeping from moving powder from place to place and losing values in each move, or in filters and so on, use settling as much as possible, and filtering only fairly pure liquids, processing the powders in each step to remove unwanted metals and keeping the valuable metals in the pot until you can dissolve the values in a fairly pure condition, to recover the values in the purest condition possible.

Since your powders I believe came from electronic scrap you should choose a process to deal with what these contain.

Also keep in mind any time a powder has come from, or contains salts of chloride or which has previously seen a reaction with HCl and you wish to use nitric later, and your goal is not to put the gold into solution, but to remove base metals with the nitric, these powders will need to be incinerated again to remove the chlorides before using nitric acid, (this can be done in the same ceramic casserole dish). But if your goal is to dissolve gold you can move on to the next step.

Keeping in mind and using what you have learned from Hokes book (how metals react in solution).


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## reign21male (Feb 13, 2013)

Thank you Butcher, even though this may not change the process I will clarify. This isnt e scrape. This was a mess I made when I melted gold fill and real gold together. I boiled it in nitric and then I had made the grave mistake of using AR which in the I guess 2.5 months that i have been working on this. I really havent come out with any gold maybe a 1.5 grams 18k which would only be a tiny bite of what I put in. So I was left with my solution. In which you believed I had made colloidal gold which I most likely did, since the gold could only be in the solution or waste. So I started but pouring 98% sulfuric acid In the big vat. Then I started the long process of evaporating what I think is 8 qts of solution. So when I almost had all of the solution evaporated I saw a bunch stuff that had settled over the 2.5 months and so I filtered it. After the pot boiled over I cleaned up with banking soda and add all of it back to the pot. As the liquid started to foam and bubble it turn from dark green to gray. And it would start to bubble up and I would have to turn the heat down and then finally, when I started to stir it I became hard powder. And what you see in the pot is what was left of the solution. For some reason my picture always show up out of ordered. so this is what it should look like. Sorry I didnt clairify that earlier. I only had a a few mins at lunch to post my question. I hope this was clearer. 
Thanks GEO and Butcher.


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## butcher (Feb 14, 2013)

Ok if I understand it was captured in the filter first, and dried it is now dried clumps in the vision ware dish.


Crush, to powder, heat raise heat slowly, and keep raising heat, it will most likely fuse the salts to a syrup, if this happens lower heat just below the point where gases form and try to pop and splash out of the dish, heat to drive acid gases from fused salts (keep stirred) till they dry again.

Sometimes if I have filter dried papers from previous processes I will add these to the fused syrupy salts, this clumps the syrup allowing me to raise the heat without gases bubbling and popping syrup out of the dish making the process a little faster.

The syrupy fused salts will dry again as acids leave the salts, keeping this stirred and this point will make re-crushing easier later when fused salts dry to hard clumps, crush the powders again, raise heat, when at high heat cook until no more fumes evolve then use the torch to incinerate as described in the above discussion...

I have incinerated in a vision ware skillet, similar to the pot you have, but I have not tried it in a vision-ware soup pot like in your picture, also my hotplate uses solid cast iron burners, not the coil type burner it looks like you are using, I know the vision-ware skillet will take the punishment on the solid cast iron hotplate and me using my torch, but I do not know if the soup pot would handle it and with the coil hotplate without breaking.

You could also use a stainless steel pan (non magnetic) to incinerate the material in.


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