# CW Ammen



## gbaldwin75 (Dec 31, 2007)

I was wondering if the book "recovery and refining of precious metals" by cw ammen was worth reading, or if i should stick to finding hoke's book?


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## Harold_V (Dec 31, 2007)

I've never seen Ammen's book, but I have no doubt it's a good one. In spite of that, unless someone can tell me differently, I don't think it would serve the novice as well as Hoke's. Hers is written such that a person that is not the least bit familiar with chemistry can learn to refine precious metals. She takes you through making solutions for testing, how to test, how to refine various varieties of waste materials, and even provides excellent guidance for processing platinum and palladium, all in language that anyone can understand. It doesn't go in to depth with silver, but that information is readily available in a book written by Butts & Cox. 

On the negative side, it was written long before electronic scrap was available, so it is not covered, but the basic principles of refining remain the same. You can glean all the information for stripping gold by various methods right here on this forum. 

It might be a good idea for those that have Ammen's book to speak out----on the outside chance that I am handing out bad advice. Don't think I am considering I knew nothing about chemistry or refining in general and learned enough from her (Hoke's) book to found a small refining business that was exceedingly successful. 

How about it readers-------any comments on Ammen's book?

Harold

edit: added name for clarity.


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## Noxx (Dec 31, 2007)

I just realized that I do not own Hook's book but Ammen's book lol.

Anyway, I must say that it's good. Good for the novice and the advanced as well. He gives processes to recover all the precious metals from different sources (but not electronic scrap). It's quite old but the methods are mostly the same. But a lot of the information can be found in this forum...

A few examples of what is covered :
-Testing and identification of PGMs
-Electrochemical principles
-Electrorefining
-Wet chemical master plan
-Various systems
-Black Sands
-Fire Assaying
-Thin-layer chromatography
-Dip Stick chemistry
-Solvent extraction
-Magnetite
-Illustrated Melting and smelting devices (drawings) 

Recommended if you can get it not too expensive.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 31, 2007)

The Ammen book is good. I have the 1st edition and wish I had the newer one. The more books one has, the better, IMHO.


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## jimdoc (Dec 31, 2007)

I have the Ammen book also and agree that
is a very good book. I think that Hoke's should
be everbody's first choice to begin their library.
I don't think that you could ever have to many
books on a subject that you are very interested
in learning about.
Ammen also has a few books on casting metals,
I also have a few of those. Just look up C.W.
Ammen.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 31, 2007)

My son always says that, in every book, there's some good grain among the tares. For example, although Gadja's book, "Gold Refining," is terrible in many respects, it's the only book I know of that has a chapter on the sulfuric stripper.


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## gbaldwin75 (Jan 1, 2008)

Thank you for the advice. much appreciated, am new to the hobby and would like to get started asap, so thanx


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## Platdigger (Jan 1, 2008)

Yes, I have Hokes, Ammens, and Gadja's. Like you say there is at least a little something different in each. And something good to glean.
Randy


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## jimdoc (Jan 2, 2008)

One good thing about Ammens book is it is easier
to find. My local library has a copy that could be
borrowed if I didn't have it already. So check
with your library, see if you like it before you
buy it.


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## rockhammer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

I own both Hoke and Ammen books. Hoke has some dated material in it while Ammen has updated info. They are both well worth the read. Ammen assumes the reader has limited chemistry background and writes toward the newbie and has also published the second edition. Both editions are good.George Gajda also has a book on Gold Refining. (1982)


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## Froggy (Feb 23, 2008)

please read in ammen --le platinum du monde ,,, this is the process the guy from brazille is using to extract pgm's from converters..... wish I had the book, claims near 100% rh.... Froggy


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## Scrapman (Feb 23, 2008)

Nothing Here


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## Absolutsecurity (Feb 24, 2008)

I have Ammen's book and I thought it was a very good resource - I just got Hoke's book so I cant compare yet but I could after I have finished reading both - I would get as many books as possible and read from all of them and then ask some of the expert refiners on here what they think if you have conflicting info or problems!

Glynn


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## Froggy (Mar 2, 2008)

Ammens book hasnt been published in a while, wonder if the copyright is expired, I would like to download it ?


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## Absolutsecurity (Mar 2, 2008)

Hey Froggy!

A seller on Ebay was selling Ammens book and it was advertised as the cheapest and it was!

The book seems more technical than Hoke's

Glynn


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## Harold_V (Mar 2, 2008)

Absolutsecurity said:


> Hey Froggy!
> 
> A seller on Ebay was selling Ammens book and it was advertised as the cheapest and it was!
> 
> ...



Precisely why I recommend Hoke's book for beginners. It is written in such a way that even an uneducated dolt can glean good and useful information. 

Harold


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## Absolutsecurity (Mar 2, 2008)

Thanks Harold!!!!!!!

Glynn


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## Harold_V (Mar 3, 2008)

Absolutsecurity said:


> Thanks Harold!!!!!!!
> 
> Glynn


 :lol: 

I trust you understand I was not making reference to you as the uneducated dolt. (That's not my style).

Fact is, I am the one that comes to mind. :wink: 

Harold


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## Absolutsecurity (Mar 3, 2008)

Harold,

I was just chumming around with you trying to be funny - thank you for the concern and caring that it may have been the other way - I greatly appreciate that Harold!!!!!!


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## Harold_V (Mar 3, 2008)

Way cool!

I'd like to think my friends can joke with me, but I want to assure them that I would not hang them out to dry! :wink: 

Harold


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## Absolutsecurity (Mar 3, 2008)

I to like to joke and play around with friends to and that's what I was doing, just happy it didn't get out of hand like the other posts of late!!!!! LoL!!!!!!

Thanks Harold!

PS:

Been out with the Flu from hell for the past WEEK - so all my batches are parked and waiting for me to return to finish them - that's why I haven't been posting that much and why I haven't been around as usuall.

Glynn


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## Harold_V (Mar 3, 2008)

Very sorry to hear about the flu. So many of the people here have suffered with it. 

So far, Susan and I have avoided being infected. From the sound of things, I think I'm well pleased. Recent reports (evening news) indicate the scientists missed their call this year, producing a vaccine that didn't include the proper strains of flu. Makes me feel better about not getting the shot, which I have yet to do, ever. 

Get well!

Harold


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## Absolutsecurity (Mar 3, 2008)

Harold,

Myself , Maria and both our sons were inflicted simultaneously!

The whole household came to a halt. I too have never had the flu shot so good thing I didn't get the wrong one ! 

How do they know what flu is going to be going around?????

Wow way off course on these post - we should pm or go to chat!

Take care and I hope nobody gets this flu!

Glynn


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## Harold_V (Mar 3, 2008)

Absolutsecurity said:


> Harold,
> Myself , Maria and both our sons were inflicted simultaneously!The whole household came to a halt.


Man, that's real ugly. It's nice when at least one person is able to take care of the little things-----like preparing a meal, assuming any of you had an appetite!



> How do they know what flu is going to be going around?????


Damned if I know, but I think it's a matter of making observations of what's been happening, and hoping for the best. Near as I know, it's a crap shoot. Problem is, it takes the better part of a year to prepare the vaccine, so they can't do much about it if they missed the call, like this year. 



> Wow way off course on these post - we should pm or go to chat!


As far as I'm concerned, while it doesn't pertain directly to refining, it is a subject of general interest----particularly when so many are afflicted. Lets leave it here for others to contribute, or perhaps gain a little insight. Now if we were talking about last night's game, it sure shouldn't be here.  

Harold


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## Absolutsecurity (Mar 4, 2008)

Well Im goin to the Doctor tomorrow! Wish me luck!

LOL!!

G


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## jimwig (Apr 7, 2008)

Ammen's book is an excellent book. it is hands on and the best. he worked for years in the metallurgy business and everything in there is the word.

when i found his book some twenty years ago about 95% of my questions were answered on the spot. it is extremely well organized.

unfortunately my copy has disappeared. 

as far as being too technical - think about what we are talking about. his descriptions are not college level theory. they are hands on.

the current version is a second edition. available thru interlibrary loan at all participating institutions.

get it and read it. and come back and give (us) me your take.


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## yvonbug (Jun 5, 2008)

I have had Ammens book since 1989. I especially like the way he wrote out all the wet plans and the master plan. Those were great! Myself, after having just read Hoke's book, I think they are both good, (but I still like Ammens book more). Harold, if you still haven't read Ammens, and it doesn't matter that you are not refining anymore, I think you'd really like it just for a nice read. Or maybe I'll make copies of his Master wet plan and e-mail it to you. You'll find it basic and interesting, I think.-y-


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## Harold_V (Jun 5, 2008)

I've not made a secret of the fact that I have not read Ammen's gold refining book. Fact is, I've never even seen a copy. I have several of his books that pertain to foundry work, so I have a general idea of his writing style. I am neither for nor against his refining book. I can't assume a given posture when I have not read the book. 

I have no qualms with anyone that prefers one book over the other. All I can do is relate my personal experience, which was having a desire to learn to refine. When I encountered Hoke's book, it solved all my problems. The information contained within was adequate to allow me to found a commercial refining service, although that was not my intention. If the information in Ammen's book could do likewise, certainly, go with it. 

The important thing to consider is that if a person is interested in learning refining, buy one or the other. Unless any given reader is proficient in chemistry, and understands the principles involved in refining, I find it more than inconvenient to try to help when they don't have enough initiative to do some simple reading. 

Said another way, I'm more than happy to teach an individual how to fish, but I refuse to give them a fish. 

This comment is not directed at anyone in particular, but readers in general. Society is filled with people that believe that they are entitled to anything and everything. I don't agree. If they are not willing to earn their way, I don't care if they don't arrive at their destination. Buying a book that teaches processing methods is one way you can earn the right to ask questions of those that have knowledge. Meet us half way!

Another comment on Ammen's book. I had been refining for some time when I first became aware that his book existed. I could see no reason to make the purchase when I was already successfully refining not only gold and silver, but platinum and palladium. I was more than happy with the results I achieved. My quest was to refine, not to endlessly research. I left that for those that yearned to re-invent the wheel. 

Harold


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## Scott2357 (Jun 5, 2008)

Y,

Maybe you would like to make Ammen's book available for download?


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## yvonbug (Jun 6, 2008)

I wasn't suggesting that you do more research, Harold, I just thought you might find some of it interesting. sorry  

I think that's a good idea to make it a download. I probably need to get a flat scanner first, cuz I don't want to tear my book apart. Since I've been wanting one for some time, I guess this is a good reason to get it now. So, as soon as I learn how to do it, I'll make it a download. So now I'm in pursuit of a scanner.


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## Harold_V (Jun 6, 2008)

yvonbug said:


> I wasn't suggesting that you do more research, Harold, I just thought you might find some of it interesting. sorry



Oh :!: ----Not directed at you, yvonbug----just commenting in general. I had something to say about Ammen's book much earlier and wanted to clear the air. 

While I don't have much spare time, I _*would*_ enjoy reading what you suggested. If you can conveniently forward the information to me, it would be welcome. 

Harold


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## jimwig (Jun 6, 2008)

there's not a lick of math in Ammen's books. not to mention no calculus. he is IMHO a down to earth scientist communicating in layfolk's speak.

but i have been wrong before.

i have had the first edition since at least the eighties - but now it is gone with the rest of everything else i used to own......ohwell.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 6, 2008)

I do have his first edition. Does anyone have both? Is his 2nd edition better? In what ways? The 1st edition is much more applicable to miners than it is scrappers.


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## Platdigger (Jun 6, 2008)

I have his second edition. He does make some reference to "scrap" in this one.

In fact in the very beginning of the first chapter he describes the so called "barrel method".

Which is really close to Steves method of HCL/CL.

And he suggests this being a very good method for electronic scrap.

In this, bleaching powder is used (chlorinated lime). Or just "bleach".
And oxidized with sulphuric acid.
Randy


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 6, 2008)

Very interesting. I may buy it. That "barrel method" rings a bell. I recall it as a chlorine method from a century ago.


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## Shaul (Jun 7, 2008)

I have the book (1984) in DjVu Format.

Anyone interested?


Shaul


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## Scott2357 (Jun 7, 2008)

Post away Shaul !


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## Shaul (Jun 7, 2008)

Unfortunately, the system doesn't recognize DjVu. 

If I succeed in converting it to pdf I'll try again.

Shaul


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## Shaul (Jun 7, 2008)

The digital copy I have was originally scanned 2-pages across so that the 328 pages comes out as 169.

In DjVu format the file is 3.31 MB. When I tried converting it to pdf, it came out a whopping 83.7 MB (totally out of the ballpark for anyone with a dialup connection). Besides, I don't particularly care for the print quality in the converted (pdf) copy.

Also, DjVu isn't in the 'Allowed Extensions' List. It's unfortunate because DjVu viewers are easily downloaded from the internet.

If anyone has a better idea, I'd be open to it.

Shaul


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## lazersteve (Jun 7, 2008)

Shaul,


Do you need some web space to post the book? Let me know and I'll get the book and see if I can convert it with my Adobe professional.

Steve


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## Shaul (Jun 7, 2008)

Steve;

It would be far better if the DjVu would be in the 'Allowed Extensions', both in terms of the small file size as well as the print quality.

Google 'DjVu Reader or Viewer' if you don't already have one.

I am sending you the file as an email attachment (offlist).

Shaul


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## lazersteve (Jun 7, 2008)

Shaul,

I already have the deja plugin.

Steve


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## Shaul (Jun 7, 2008)

Fine, I sent you the file.

Good Luck with it.

Shaul


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## Anonymous (Jun 7, 2008)

Removed by author


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## lazersteve (Jun 7, 2008)

Shaul,

It will be easy enough just to zip the file and then post it.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Jun 8, 2008)

Removed.....


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## Shaul (Jun 8, 2008)

Gus;

First of all, thanks for your efforts in trying to make this available to everyone.

I don't know what happened between the DjVu file that I sent you and the file that you posted, but there are major printing errors that aren't in my copy. 

For example, the title page is supposed to say 'Refining' and not 'Resining'.

Also on pg. 5 3rd paragraph down it says 'on^the ore'. It's supposed to say 'once the ore'. Also the next line in parentheses: 'materraf'. It's supposed to read: 'material'.

There are other errors I've seen as well. I'd hate to have to go through the whole thing, line by line.

Sorry to be so picky but my Father was a printer and proofreader, so the first thing I hone in on are the printing errors.


Shaul


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## Shaul (Jun 8, 2008)

Let's try this:

Seems to work.

One would still need to download a DjVu viewer plugin from the internet.

Steve, Thanks for the zip tip.

Shaul


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 8, 2008)

This may be too much to ask but, has anyone scanned the second edition?


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## istari9 (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks I have a hard copy as well but this is a page saver for sure!

Ray


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## Seamus (Jan 12, 2009)

I have both editions of CWAmmen. The second edition has additional chapters with maybe a little addition to previous chapters. I just received C.M.Hokes book today and did some reading and browsing. I'm already finding these books very valuable and plan to read them most of the winter before getting into refining.

I also have "THE SECRET TO SUCCESSFUL PROSPECTING Testing, assaying, and identification of GOLD-SILVER-PLATINUM" 
By Prospector Ed, Ed Fusch of Riverside,Washington. I have been using this book for a couple of year now and with the help of C.W.Ammen and C.M. Hoke books and this forum I can go slow and add refining of precious metals to the assaying that I have been doing.

I have a lot of appreciation for the information going out on this forum.
Thanks


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## pinman (Mar 14, 2009)

i know this is an old topic but i just got ammens book in the mail and i think its an awesome book. i found a cat refining technique in here i wanted to ask about.

in ammens book it says you can smelt the honey combs, rods, or pellets with steel, then dissolve it in sulfuric acid leaving the precious metals as insolubles. does anyone have experience with this?


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## Harold_V (Mar 15, 2009)

pinman said:


> in ammens book it says you can smelt the honey combs, rods, or pellets with steel, then dissolve it in sulfuric acid leaving the precious metals as insolubles. does anyone have experience with this?


I have no experience with cats, but I'd like to comment on the idea of melting with steel. 

Unless you have access to a carbon arc furnace, or an induction furnace, I don't think you'll enjoy much success. Steel melts at a very high temperature, in the vicinity of 3,000° F. The typical home built furnace would be incapable of achieving the temperatures required. Does Ammen make any recommendations for melting methods?

Harold


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## nicknitro (Mar 15, 2009)

Wow, 

Thanks for the upload. That is another fine print, that will consume many hours of my life for the next few weeks. 

I love the sketches included, they prove invaluable when the reader gets bewildered.

Thanks Again,
Nick


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## pinman (Mar 15, 2009)

i understand i wont be able to do this at home, i just found it very interesting.

it does say to smelt it in an electric furnace. does the biscuit get vaporized in the smelting process? what makes it acid soluble if it wasnt already so prior to smelting?


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## Harold_V (Mar 15, 2009)

pinman said:


> it does say to smelt it in an electric furnace. does the biscuit get vaporized in the smelting process? what makes it acid soluble if it wasnt already so prior to smelting?


Because I'm not familiar with anything to do with cats aside from having chemically processed some of the ceramic beads, a long time ago, I'm going to have to assume that the biscuit to which you refer is the ceramic part of the cat in question. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

An arc or induction furnace can achieve temperature high enough to melt the material in question. It doesn't vaporize, but is melted. Once molten, the steel acts as a collector of the values, which you likely already understand. The lot is given a soak time,which would insure that the values were collected by the included steel, then it is likely poured to a mold of sorts. 

The biscuit, which had been melted, goes off as slag, likely having been melted/dissolved along with flux of some kind. If the material was to be poured to a cone mold, separating the resulting button from the waste material wouldn't be much of a chore. That is common practice when working with copper based alloys, so I'm assuming that would be the case with steel. 

What makes it acid soluble is that the ceramic material is eliminated. Steel will readily dissolve in dilute sulfuric acid. The furnace process is strictly to collect the values and eliminate the ceramic portion. It does not change it so it becomes amenable to acid processing. 

Harold


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## pinman (Mar 15, 2009)

aahhhhhh, that cleared it up fully. thank you once again.


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## steveonmars (Apr 20, 2009)

Can anyone tell me what they are using to view the djvu file?

thanks,

Steve


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## Anonymous (Apr 20, 2009)

steveonmars said:


> Can anyone tell me what they are using to view the djvu file?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Steve



Linux or M$ http://djvu.org/


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## steveonmars (Apr 21, 2009)

gustavus,

Thanks, I installed the LizardTech viewer and it works great!

Steve


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## Seamus (May 7, 2009)

This book is great for prospectors like me. I also have Hokes book for a better understanding of refining.


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## rusty (Apr 20, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> I've never seen Ammen's book, but I have no doubt it's a good one. In spite of that, unless someone can tell me differently, I don't think it would serve the novice as well as Hoke's. Hers is written such that a person that is not the least bit familiar with chemistry can learn to refine precious metals. She takes you through making solutions for testing, how to test, how to refine various varieties of waste materials, and even provides excellent guidance for processing platinum and palladium, all in language that anyone can understand. It doesn't go in to depth with silver, but that information is readily available in a book written by Butts & Cox.
> 
> On the negative side, it was written long before electronic scrap was available, so it is not covered, but the basic principles of refining remain the same. You can glean all the information for stripping gold by various methods right here on this forum.
> 
> ...



IMHO once you've read and understand Hoke's then Ammens would be your book of interest as he takes you well beyond Ms. Hoke's teachings.

Yes Ammens begins on a more technical level, if you've already read Hoke's this would not be a problem for most then he has also written his book in easy to read layman's terms, with the Internet you can easily fill in the blanks.

For instance Ammmens now has me interested in thin layer chromatography, which I'm finding to be a very fascinating subject.


Separation of black ink on TLC plate.


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## rickbb (May 23, 2013)

As usual I've done it backwards. I read Ammen before Hoke, lol. 

I found it a good read as I was thinking of prospecting before I realized what an idiot I was for paying an ewaste hauler to carry off my companies old PC's.


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