# Harold, a resolution for new comer questions



## JHS

Rather than bicker back and forth about who gets answered, and if you can answer,send all newcomers here
http://refinementofpreciousmetals.com/index.php
this is a relatively new forun, and policy is to help all that ask.
it was started in march by a member from this forum who decided he wanted a place to 
help everyone
no more new comer questions to deal with
just copy and paste the link to every new comer question
what could be easier.
http://refinementofpreciousmetals.com/index.php


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## Westerngs

Why walk 100 miles when the Cadillac is parked in the driveway?


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## JHS

ok,that makes no sence.since this site does not want to answer the same old questions,i offered a real and genuine solution
your caddy is out of gas.


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## Westerngs

The same old questions have been answered many times over. The answers are readily available for those willing to look. 

Anyway, to each his own.


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## JHS

i do not understand your response to this suggestion.
this is an issue that is dividing members.when an equitable solution is offered 
you reject it further causing division.Why?


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## goldsilverpro

I 100% agree with Westerngs. EVERYTHING you need to know is already here! And, most everything important here was originally written by the experts, who are mainly the moderators. The important thing is be willing to make the effort to search for the information. If a newbie won't do this, who cares. Why go to a second rate forum like that one and get second rate information. I know it will be second rate because I have considered the source.


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## JHS

when a person runs out of anything intelligent to say,it always seens they resort to a character attack.much like little kids name calling behind mommies back


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## AndyWilliams

If safety is always first, then why do questions on processes get answered without ensuring safety?


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## Lou

Safety is always a legitimate concern, but only such in the context of certain posts. I, for example, should preface a post about chlorinating rhodium that chlorine is corrosive, poisonous, an oxidizer, and that the reaction is conducted at high heat that may cause burns, and that RhCl3 isn't very healthy. Such things can be a slippery slope--if one doesn't know that a syntheses using high temperatures presents a burn risk, or that some chemicals used are dangerous if mixed or handled incorrectly, take two steps way back, and consider getting a new hobby.


Here's the deal though: admonitions, warnings, posted MSDSs, safety threads, and so on, are all throughout the forum. One has but to look.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=safety&terms=all&author=&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

138 pages where something about safety is said. Moderators and other members are available to address safety. Posts can be made. 

What really is the problem is that a.) there's so much information here, it's difficult to collate it together so that it is easily/rapidly accessed to incoming members, b.) no one wants to take the time to read and study. 

If people won't help themselves learn, and expect to be spoon-fed...they should hire someone to do their work for them. This is not the business, hobby or arena for those who won't plan before acting. Measure twice, cut once. Everyone should have a working, practical knowledge of what an operation accomplishes and what dangers may be present in conducting it, or utilizing a certain reagent. 99% of the common pitfalls are listed.

I will not jump down anyone's throat if they're asking a question that hasn't been answered or hasn't been discussed in years and isn't easily found (by me) using the forum search or simple google. I think people don't realize that their question is the same as many others' so they keep asking, not knowing...


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## rusty

goldsilverpro said:


> I 100% agree with Westerngs. EVERYTHING you need to know is already here! And, most everything important here was originally written by the experts, who are mainly the moderators. The important thing is be willing to make the effort to search for the information. If a newbie won't do this, who cares. Why go to a second rate forum like that one and get second rate information. I know it will be second rate because I have considered the source.



I don't ever recall Ms. C.M. Hoke ever being a moderator on the Gold Forum.


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## JHS

Lou,
I think that everyone that comes here with the same old question,is asking it for the first time.


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## Lou

Then by all means, take what you have learned or know and apply it to answering the question, on this forum or off. Due to time constraints, I really can't help out much more. Wish I could. I just want to see more people get interested in this and get good information.

I can see your point but I also feel for some members and mods who grow weary with "I ADDED PINZ TO NITRATE AND MURIATIC AND IT WENT BLUE LIQUID MADE SMOKE. WHERES MY GOLD. I CAN SEE IT MELTED AWAY SOMEONE HELP NOW"

Not that every post is like that by any stretch, but some approach it.

I understand that reading goes only so far as an educational tool for many (myself included) and that sometimes you have to learn the hard way with an experiment. I'd wager that books can only teach so much, but so too with posts. The idea is that reading the vast repository of things to do/not do here on the board, a member will gain familiarity with the science and the consequences of unit operations in the recycling process.


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## Harold_V

Lou said:


> I understand that reading goes only so far as an educational tool for many (myself included) and that sometimes you have to learn the hard way with an experiment. I'd wager that books can only teach so much, but so too with posts. The idea is that reading the vast repository of things to do/not do here on the board, a member will gain familiarity with the science and the consequences of unit operations in the recycling process.


What virtually all of those who keep asking to be told don't seem to understand is (screaming on purpose) IF THEY'D READ HOKE'S BOOK, AND DO THE EXERCISES SHE PRESENTS, THEY'D LEARN THESE THINGS READILY, BY DOING. They won't. They want it handed to them, without turning a hand. I'm no longer willing. 

My message to these folks? Read Hoke's book, or go to a forum where you have leaders with questionable experience and knowledge. You'll get as good as they are. 

Harold


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## RikkiRicardo

Regards this other site this is my opinion
1) looks like all the people that has been banned has joined this other site.
2)They are stealing info from this forum
3)Is the creator of that site someone that has been banned from this forum? or are they still on this forum? 
4)I agree sending people that does not want to study/read/experiment and search send them to that site let them handle this problem there.
5)who is the creator of that site?
6)And anyone that is not happy with this forum give up your membership and join the other one simple.
7)Do not steal info from here to bring to the other site as i see it this is what is happening here from what is see regards that site everything is copy and paste.
8)I have no chemistry schooling what i have learned here is worth a million words study/read/experiment and search i have not asked to many questions only when I'm stuck.
9) My lab has more experiments then processes still at this time I'm learning and will keep on searching this forum 
10) To all the people that has made this Forum to what it is Thanks

RikkiRicardo


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## Harold_V

RikkiRicardo said:


> Regards this other site this is my opinion
> 1) looks like all the people that has been banned has joined this other site.


Not all, although I'm sure some have been banned from this forum. One of them is Barren Realms, who is now one of the moderators. He was banned from this forum for being dishonest with the readers in regards to refining their material. 



> 2)They are stealing info from this forum


Of course they are. They have to, as, without having come here, none of them had enough knowledge to refine. What spells the difference is men of honor don't steal from others. Who, better then they, can speak for their own character, which they do by posting information they have gleaned by being here. 



> 3)Is the creator of that site someone that has been banned from this forum? or are they still on this forum?


The founder and at least one person (who has been appointed moderator) are still active members of this board. There is no law against holding membership in both, and they are welcome to be here so long as they do not disrupt the forum. The founder has taken it upon himself to chastise me and post his opinions, which have been noted. He has been warned that any further disruption of the board will result in his banishment. I am not the least bit concerned about his opinion of me, or how I moderate. To make this perfectly clear, I do not fear a skunk, I simply do not care for its unpleasant odor. 



> 4)I agree sending people that does not want to study/read/experiment and search send them to that site let them handle this problem there.


He will learn that to allow that to happen will ruin his forum instantly. It will become so cluttered with nonsense that it will be impossible to do proper research, with a bigger problem of not having anyone to oversee what is posted, who has enough knowledge to prevent the propagation of misinformation. The founder, himself, clearly does not have an understanding, having posted just recently that gold is dissolved by sodium hydroxide. <<<<sigh>>>>>
What do you suppose the readers who follow his board can expect to learn? No need to study, just ask questions and get answers. He'll learn fast enough. 


> 5)who is the creator of that site?


The reader registered as jeneje on this forum. 


> 6)And anyone that is not happy with this forum give up your membership and join the other one simple.


No need to give up anything. All are free to visit and join his forum. I simply advise caution, as there are no individuals with experience in the refining world to advise against less than acceptable procedures. 


> 7)Do not steal info from here to bring to the other site as i see it this is what is happening here from what is see regards that site everything is copy and paste.


That's what people with little character do. I will blame no one for anything. After all, who better than they can know what values they hold dear? If they wish to display to the world that they are thieves, who are we to stop them? Let them prove to the world what they are. 


> 8)I have no chemistry schooling what i have learned here is worth a million words study/read/experiment and search i have not asked to many questions only when I'm stuck.


And that's why your questions are always welcome. We've stated, time and again, we're about refiners helping refiners. We are not about refiners helping deadbeats. 


> 9) My lab has more experiments then processes still at this time I'm learning and will keep on searching this forum
> 10) To all the people that has made this Forum to what it is Thanks


We thank you for your patience and understanding. You are a shining example of the type of person we hope to help. 

Thanks for being here, and putting up with our rules and regulations. 

Harold


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## RikkiRicardo

Mr Harold_V
Again with respect well said
Thanks for being you
wish i was in the states so that one day we would meet and i congratulate you again keep up the great work.
Only a man that can not stand up for himself will try and but the other one down as i just seen that message that he wrote to you.
no reason to start calling names have respect for yourself and others.


RikkiRicardo


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## Geo

i can only speak for myself about this, when i first became a member here, i read for at least four months before i tried any processes (and it was the easiest and simplest). i would do one thing over and over until i got it right and moved on to something else. it was almost a year before i was confident enough to try an AR reaction. i tried as many of the getting started experiments in Hoke's book as i had materials for just to see the reaction but was never willing to invest thousands or even hundreds of dollars worth of material on something i knew nothing about. if it wasnt for the GRF, this would be a non-issue for me because i would not know a decent reaction if one eat my finger off. 

the fervor of the new member could be more desperation than anything else. "i owe a ton of money and i want to get the gold out of my computer to pay off my house mortgage" is a common theme. if you are that strapped for cash, this is the worst hobby or venture you can try. it would be better on you to start picking up cans from the side of the road. im not trying to be witty, im serious.


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## silversaddle1

Interesting. I was shocked to learn that gold refining was invented by this forum! Look at you guys, it's laughable. You act like someone jumped over the fence and ran off with your ball. To say that the information used on that "other" forum (I have never been to) was stolen from this forum, really? You guys invented it? Well then this forum is also guilty of stealing infomation from Hoke's book and others as well.

I think it's time for Noxx to step up and regain control over the forum. I paid to move this forum onto new servers to learn about gold scrap, not to listen to a bunch of guys crying over who said what or did what.

Two things need to be resolved here.

1. Harold has thrown down the law on handles. Good. Now who will enforce it? Who will screen the 24,000+ names and request changes.
2. At what point do any "experts" feel they need to answer a newcomer's questions? What does that newcomer have to do to prove he's worthy enough to ask a question to the Gods? 

I liked it better back in the day when I first joined up here. People were a lot friendlier and willing to discuss things, not matter how basic it was.


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## Platdigger

silversaddle wrote "People were a lot friendlier and willing to discuss things"

When the forum began (and of course you silversaddle would know this) everyone here was either hungry to learn or had vast experience and were willing to share. 
Then, as time went on and most here had at least some grasp of the basics (but could still learn many things from the newer guys questions being answered),
the the problem as I saw it starting was, that while most here of course wanted to keep learning more and more new people were joining the site and of course had to start at the beginning and would have the same basic questions.
The thing is, it became overwhelming.
I do not know how the moderators were even able to stand it, let alone stay on top of things.
Making butcher a mod was a good choice as he was more willing to invest more of his time here than I know I for one would ever have been.
It was still just plain overwhelming the number of new guys joining up and wanting to learn the same basic knowledge.
Wish I had the answer, answers here, but this is why I believe things sort of went south with this forum.
Not saying this still is not the best place on the net for refining info (it is) just why I think things are not as "friendly" as they were.
Those that know are still willing to share, it is just that soo much of it has all ready been posted, many times over.


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## rusty

silversaddle1 said:


> Interesting. I was shocked to learn that gold refining was invented by this forum! Look at you guys, it's laughable. You act like someone jumped over the fence and ran off with your ball. To say that the information used on that "other" forum (I have never been to) was stolen from this forum, really? You guys invented it? Well then this forum is also guilty of stealing infomation from Hoke's book and others as well.
> 
> I think it's time for Noxx to step up and regain control over the forum. I paid to move this forum onto new servers to learn about gold scrap, not to listen to a bunch of guys crying over who said what or did what.
> 
> Two things need to be resolved here.
> 
> 1. Harold has thrown down the law on handles. Good. Now who will enforce it? Who will screen the 24,000+ names and request changes.
> 2. At what point do any "experts" feel they need to answer a newcomer's questions? What does that newcomer have to do to prove he's worthy enough to ask a question to the Gods?
> 
> I liked it better back in the day when I first joined up here. People were a lot friendlier and willing to discuss things, not matter how basic it was.




Well said silversaddle1, if folks would put as much effort into reading and refining as they do bickering they would be very successful refiners.


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## Lou

I think it's poorly said, silversaddle.

I don't think any one of us moderators considers himself a refining "God". I don't call myself an expert in anything--the title of expert is something that others award to a worthy person. I think of myself as an enthusiast lucky enough to be able to do it for a living.

I don't know about the other forum, but I would feel that its creators efforts would be better spent collecting and organizing the information into a useful form for members here, as there is so much on this board that can be used. This has been done by many members already. 

As for your comment Rusty: having met and worked along side with Chris (goldsilverpro)--I really feel there's nothing in refining that she's done that he hasn't, and more likely it is he who has the greater knowledge by virtue of his 40 year career. I have profited greatly from listening to his advice and suggestions and have learned from him many tricks and tips that I have never yet found in any books.


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## JHS

I think it comes down to this.
a child standing on a dock falls into the water.
there is a rope on the dock
you have two choices
you can throw the whole rope in the water and say
save yourself
or
you can hold the other end of the rope
the rope
has been offered by people who are willing to hold it
the quality of the rope does not matter,if you are not the one holding it.
it only takes a copy paste,unless that is also too much help.
the owner of the other forum did NOT ask me to post this link
i saw it as a solution

now i only posted this link as a way to resolve a problem that was dividing this forum
but it has become another issue to further divide
you have beaten this old dog into a corner
so i will shut my stupid mouth and no longer try to help.
that should satisfy those who object,and are willing to throw the whole rope.


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## RikkiRicardo

JHS

Nobody here is saying that they will not help what they are saying read the basics understand what you are doing
then try small experiments till you learn what you are doing this takes time.
The problem is when someone just joins with out searching there first post is give me step by step 
all people are saying take the guided tour this is not a game mixing this stuff 
what do you think the other site will not have the same problems?
I'm sure mostly everyone here will grab that rope after that they have seen that person did some reading and small experiments first.
problem is these crises everyone thinks they can get rich in this game without thinking about the hazards they all want to start big then they see they have 
problems then they ask for the help over and over Read the basics then try a small experiment this is all we are saying.
We have some of the finest people on this forum that will help you when you need it 


RikkiRicardo


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## JHS

i posted this to another thread,but perhaps it is better here

And why do you suppose that is? I have pretty much avoided posting on this board for several months, not having the time it takes to tend to matters. When I did pay attention, what I saw was an endless supply of individuals asking the same questions, day in, day out, and refusing to do the least thing to help themselves. While I hesitate to blame the younger generations, it's no secret that many have no clue about being self sufficient. They've been handed everything in their lives, and have no concept of becoming self sufficient. Well, the world just doesn't work that way. 

Harold,
I am nither the younger generation,nor was i handed everything on a silver platter.
I came from the poorest family in my town.At a young age I decided i would not remain
in that position.I did not work hard.that never got my father anywhere,besides an earley grave,
.I opted to work smart instead.By the time i was in my mid twenties,i could have retired.never cheating,stealing,and keeping everything above board and honest i was quite sucessful,and still am.i will leave the silver platter to my children and grand children.there is more than enough.
when i came here,quite by accident,i had already spent a year of what little mortal time i have left studing.
i looked around a little and decided it was worthy of joining.
low and behold,there is a link,IF YOU NEED HELP,well as a member no matter how new,i decided to take advantage of that offer.little did i know the results.you see it did not say,danger do not click this link,or you will be sorry.
i posted my question,after being told i had a mess.one member posted the nine word answer that i needed.
sulfite not sulfate.i checked and sure enough i ordered the wrong chemical.old age,lack of remembering,or oversite.you choose.another member said copper,cement.
weather it was lack of knowledge or old age,i do not know,but with those couple of answers i was able to recover 1.3 oz of gold the following week.
thanks to the two answers.
john
perhaps the answer is to modify the link that says if you need help,and replace it to one that brings you to hoke,and a message on the first page that tells the user when they are finnished reading they then can return to the forun.


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## Dan Dement

Silversadddle1 is a scrapper in Iowa trying to make a living scrapping out computers in Iowa from what I can see. Tough, tough business as I have tried a couple of experiments into this area trying to help a friend. I suspect that he is under 40 but that is a pure guess on my part. In today's Goggle world, the younger group wants instant answers instantly! What I consider as GRF"s strongest asset's are the Moderators such as Harold who I would say has LOT"S of experience. Not all the moderator's have the years of experiences as Lou is certainly under 30 and has PGM knowledge far beyond his years. 

What we need to be careful of is burning out the moderator's in both time and patience with bickering that is totally unproductive. Please, if you are not happy with being told to research and "Help Thy Self" then send your time on the new forum. In life, you got to set your own level of people you are comfortable with. There is the High Road and there is the Low Road. Harold, Lou and many others are certainly High Road people. No one keeps anyone from being in both. I think it is less than correct to use one Forum's reputation to promote another forum. If you not happy, do not participate in the GRF and spend your time there. What I find distasteful, is using GRF to promote another forum. It's not correct and should stop. Go and prosper. If you have something positive that you want to share, please share it. If you need a answer to question, send a few minutes and research it. If you can't find the correct answer, someone on GRF will help you.

Dan


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## silversaddle1

Dan,

Close, but not quite right. I am 50 years old next month. I own and operate a very successful electronics recycling business. I don't refine. Not that I'm not smart enough to do it, I just choose not to. I have enough hobbies as it is. 

I love this forum. I have learned a lot of things here. I have made some pretty good customer contacts here. I want the forum to succeed.

Harold is a wizard when it comes to refining, and Noxx can show you how to refine a clump of coal into PM's with little effort. It would cost a lot of money to hire that caliber of help, yet we get it here for free.

I think once we get these few curves ironed out, it will be back to refining and doing what most enjoy doing.

We should come up with a simple way to explain to noobie's the natural order of things around here and what is expected of them while here. No need to be heavy-handed and throw the "banned" word around. Time outs can work wonders (however my mom did not know what a time-out was, but sure knew what a spanking was!).


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## Harold_V

silversaddle1 said:


> Interesting. I was shocked to learn that gold refining was invented by this forum! Look at you guys, it's laughable. You act like someone jumped over the fence and ran off with your ball. To say that the information used on that "other" forum (I have never been to) was stolen from this forum, really? You guys invented it? Well then this forum is also guilty of stealing infomation from Hoke's book and others as well.
> 
> I think it's time for Noxx to step up and regain control over the forum. I paid to move this forum onto new servers to learn about gold scrap, not to listen to a bunch of guys crying over who said what or did what.
> 
> Two things need to be resolved here.
> 
> 1. Harold has thrown down the law on handles. Good. Now who will enforce it? Who will screen the 24,000+ names and request changes.
> 2. At what point do any "experts" feel they need to answer a newcomer's questions? What does that newcomer have to do to prove he's worthy enough to ask a question to the Gods?
> 
> I liked it better back in the day when I first joined up here. People were a lot friendlier and willing to discuss things, not matter how basic it was.


Your attitude is noted. It will most likely not serve you well (here) if it remains a constant. 

Harold


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## Harold_V

silversaddle1 said:


> We should come up with a simple way to explain to noobie's the natural order of things around here and what is expected of them while here. No need to be heavy-handed and throw the "banned" word around. Time outs can work wonders (however my mom did not know what a time-out was, but sure knew what a spanking was!).


What you appear to be ignoring is the ****fact**** that we have tried pretty much everything. We have not tried a special place on the forum, and the reason should be obvious to you. What makes you think that a special place on the forum will be observed? Who is going to spend their time minding that mess? How would it be monitored and moderated? How would any of us know when a reader was able to be allowed full access? What makes you think that readers would be honest about where they should be? Some can't even be honest enough with themselves to read what they should be reading--they just want it handed to them. 

What is NOW working is the fact that readers who refuse to follow the advice tendered (to read until they understand the basics before posting, or be banned) has accomplished the hoped-for mission---a decrease in questions that have been answered hundreds of times. 

Do you really think a music teacher would start a student on a composition by Beethoven instead of learning the scales? That's precisely what many readers here have hoped to do--they want to start at the top, but don't have a clue where the top is, and have little to no interest in learning. They just want to be on top. 

I'm not willing to play that silly game. The only thing that has worked, thus far, is the notice of being banned if they ask questions *BEFORE THEY UNDERSTAND THE BASICS. *

Being of sound mind, and able to make decisions, what I gleaned from the reaction we've received is that they are UNWILLING to do their part, for what ever reason. 

Fine. I'll ban them, and it's no longer a problem. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If new readers are unwilling to do their part, *which they will do by reading Hoke's book, and by doing the exercises she recommends, as well as reading other pertinent information that is readily available on this board*, I don't want them here. They are parasites hoping to accomplish a mission on the sweat and toil of others, unwilling to do anything to better themselves, aside from taking from others. I liken such individuals to burglars, contributing nothing to society, but dragging it down instead. 

This forum has been so damned muddied by the inane questions asked by those who refuse to do anything that it borders on being useless---so naturally some folks think that if we continue to muddy the water, it will, somehow, become clear? 

I don't think so. 

A change must come--or there's no reason for any of us to be here. 

Harold


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## patnor1011

I am member for a quite few years. Back in old days there was a lot less members, lot less questions. Now it is different. New members and a lot of them pretty much every day. We do have pretty much the same number of moderators. Some moderators are not that active as they used to be and some just stopped posting completely. 

With that much of new members and questions those few mods who are daily present here simply cant cope and are taking shots from all sides. Suddenly they are blamed for whatever reason. I have suggested Noxx about 2 months ago to pick or delegate new moderator or two, even three. They may be full mods or lets say junior mods but I believe present mods need some help.

I do believe that Harold, Chris, Lou, Steve and Butcher must have final word and whoever feels different must realize that this place would be nothing without them. 

Jesus all this talk about newbies is funny. They either get answer or not. They may like that answer or not but who cares. They may be told to read Hoke or use proper language, so what? You cant make jacket which will fit everyone. I got my share of answers which I did not liked and I am still here. 

We should not waste time suggesting what to tell newbies or what to do or how to change things. By the way - this already was discussed many times and answered or perhaps not again many times over. Another pointless discussion in my books.

Mods will be here to *rule *and that is it. Whoever don't like it can join new forum. I will stick with this one.


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## silversaddle1

> Your attitude is noted. It will most likely not serve you well (here) if it remains a constant.
> 
> Harold



See, here we are with the heavy-handed threats about banning people again. I'm a paying member of this forum. My opinion on how things are around here should be heard. You may not like my opinion, and that's fine. But don't threaten me over it. 

Harold, you want to be the Captain of this ship, that's fine. Then you come up with a soulution to the problem of the handles and noobie questions. We're all ears. 

You've mistaken my opinion for an "attitude".


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## AndyWilliams

silversaddle1 said:


> See, here we are with the heavy-handed threats about banning people again. I'm a paying member of this forum. My opinion on how things are around here should be heard. You may not like my opinion, and that's fine. But don't threaten me over it.
> 
> Harold, you want to be the Captain of this ship, that's fine. Then you come up with a soulution to the problem of the handles and noobie questions. We're all ears.
> 
> You've mistaken my opinion for an "attitude".



Paying member? There is no such thing. Donating is encouraged, not required, and there are no additional benefits available to those who donate. Your opinion is worth the power of your argument, that's all, no more, no less. 

Of course, there is a difference in opinion and attitude. If it's your opinion that gold refining was invented by this forum, then you're a fool. No, that wasn't your opinion, that was your attitude, and the sarcasm was noted.

Your opinion should be heard, on that I will agree, but that doesn't mean you have a say.

And, finally, there is a solution, already implemented. The problem here, again, is that you need to read. Pick your name wisely and thoughtfully, if the name is of poor taste, or otherwise offensive, it will be dismissed from the forum. If you are a noob, expect that you should have the knowledge of a process, front to back, having searched and read to find the answer on the forum, before asking the question. Certainly not, "ok, thanks for that step, now what's next?"


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## JHS

Harold,
this thread has no value.it was not taken in the spirit that it should have.
i did my best to offer a simple solution to an ongoing rift in the forum.
it has resulted in an even bigger tear.this was not my intension.
i even suggested that the help needed link could be linked to a cover page that would send questions to hoke.
nothing else has been offered,
not from a single member of the thousands here.
it has broken down to,character attacks and name calling.
this is not what most members would expect from a professional forum.
for those reasons i will ask you to delete this entire useless thread.
and i will say i am sorry for posting it in the first place.
thank you
john


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## jimdoc

JHS said:


> Harold,
> this thread has no value.it was not taken in the spirit that it should have.
> i did my best to offer a simple solution to an ongoing rift in the forum.
> it has resulted in an even bigger tear.this was not my intension.
> i even suggested that the help needed link could be linked to a cover page that would send questions to hoke.
> nothing else has been offered,
> not from a single member of the thousands here.
> it has broken down to,character attacks and name calling.
> this is not what most members would expect from a professional forum.
> for those reasons i will ask you to delete this entire useless thread.
> and i will say i am sorry for posting it in the first place.
> thank you
> john



We have been through all of this before.

Jim


----------



## silversaddle1

I have spoke my mind and am moving on. There's still much to learn.


----------



## rusty

Lou said:


> I think it's poorly said, silversaddle.
> 
> I don't think any one of us moderators considers himself a refining "God". I don't call myself an expert in anything--the title of expert is something that others award to a worthy person. I think of myself as an enthusiast lucky enough to be able to do it for a living.
> 
> I don't know about the other forum, but I would feel that its creators efforts would be better spent collecting and organizing the information into a useful form for members here, as there is so much on this board that can be used. This has been done by many members already.
> 
> As for your comment Rusty: having met and worked along side with Chris (goldsilverpro)--I really feel there's nothing in refining that she's done that he hasn't, and more likely it is he who has the greater knowledge by virtue of his 40 year career. I have profited greatly from listening to his advice and suggestions and have learned from him many tricks and tips that I have never yet found in any books.



When Ms.Hoke published her book way back in 1940 her knowledge surpassed goldsilverpro's by about 10 years. During Chris's career new alloys emerged of which Hoke obviously had no knowledge of. I would hope any metallurgist entering the field would study text avaialble beyond 1940.

By the time your Chris's age you will make him proud by surpassing his knowledge, in the meantime we mortals study from texts written back in 1940. My gratitude goes to Harold for suggesting the text along with Ms. Hoke for taking the time out from her busy life to make this text available.

In the past forum members had shown their persoanl library.s with book related to refining and precious metals, myself personally have a folder with over 2 gigabytes of e-books download as free reading from archive. org and openlibrary at no cost to me. 

We know that Harold paid dearly for his copy of Hoke, if memory serves me goldsilverpro's first Hoke's book was a photo copy which he paid dearly for. I suppose when a student has to put out money for texts he'/she will take the time to read and study the pages between the covers.

This has not proven to be the case here on the forum.

Lou if you lost your library what would it cost to replace every book you own, how many years would the loss of your reference material set you back. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is when man first put spoken language into symbols recognised as text it would change the world forever. Apparently we members here on the gold forum have trouble convincing new comers of this.

For those with a reading disability the library of congress has made talking books available to the American public, all you have to do is go to your local library to obtain a PIN number then download the talking book application - then get your books of choice to listen to. You may even find that Hoke's books are available.


----------



## RikkiRicardo

rusty
Wish i was back in Canada where that is available here in Romania we have to rely on eBooks
I'm like you big collection of eBooks one other good thing here in Romania we do have a lot of prof as I'm living in Cluj Napoca where it;s
just full of university's.
So i do get to learn other ways but i also have them learn from me what i have learned here



RikkiRicardo


----------



## marley1372

Gold refining forum: refiners arguing with refiners. You folks truly are one giant piece of work. This is probably what sessions are like in the U.S. congress. I come here for information, not to listen to some 100 year old psycho complain about people asking for help. If you don't want people asking questions, don't have a forum.


----------



## jimdoc

marley1372 said:


> Gold refining forum: refiners arguing with refiners. You folks truly are one giant piece of work. This is probably what sessions are like in the U.S. congress. I come here for information, not to listen to some 100 year old psycho complain about people asking for help. If you don't want people asking questions, don't have a forum.




You can go to the other forum, I heard it is going to be peaceful, and awesome!

Jim


----------



## its-all-a-lie

jimdoc said:


> marley1372 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gold refining forum: refiners arguing with refiners. You folks truly are one giant piece of work. This is probably what sessions are like in the U.S. congress. I come here for information, not to listen to some 100 year old psycho complain about people asking for help. If you don't want people asking questions, don't have a forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can go to the other forum, I heard it is going to be peaceful, and awesome!
> 
> Jim
Click to expand...


With alot of questions being asked over and over again, so you should have no problem getting the information you want.


----------



## AndyWilliams

marley1372 said:


> Gold refining forum: refiners arguing with refiners. You folks truly are one giant piece of work. This is probably what sessions are like in the U.S. congress. I come here for information, not to listen to some 100 year old psycho complain about people asking for help. If you don't want people asking questions, don't have a forum.



Ah yes, and here we have the highly respected marley1372. You guys remember him, right? He was the guy who provided so much guidance and insight. Heck, whenever he posted, I just had to read the thread! All two of them! The only problem was that to seem relevant, he had to mischaracterize what was going on. Like the one time when he thought the argument was about asking for help, but it was really about people expecting a handout! Yeah! Turns out that guy wasn't too sharp, was he!


----------



## 4metals

I think that the true value of reading Hoke is being missed by a lot of members. The true value in her book is that it was written for jewelers to process their own scrap. They were not chemists and she wrote a book so they could understand what she was saying. She was a chemist, she could have written a book that most people wouldn't understand, but she chose to speak to the masses in a way they could learn and pick up the skills she was teaching. That is the real value of Hoke, and that is why Harold recognizes its value for new members of this forum. True, she does not address electronic scrap but she does give you the background knowledge needed to understand when others discuss recovering values from the electronic scrap. The basic principles are still the same.

There are more recently written books but they do not use the approach Hoke used and most would not get as much out of the newer and more modern books because the authors made some basic assumptions, these books are written by chemists to be read by chemists. 

For those members who have read, understood, and applied the techniques in Hokes book, maybe you can see the frustration that some of the mods see when new members post questions we know have been addressed in Hokes book and on the forum. The fact that all the answers are here isn't enough for some, and quite frankly it gets old.


----------



## Harold_V

marley1372 said:


> Gold refining forum: refiners arguing with refiners. You folks truly are one giant piece of work. This is probably what sessions are like in the U.S. congress. I come here for information, not to listen to some 100 year old psycho complain about people asking for help. If you don't want people asking questions, don't have a forum.


You have an open invitation to leave this board at any time. You are a guest in the home of the owner of the board. You are not part of a democracy. It is a PRIVILEGE for you to be here, and we are very capable of revoking that privilege when you lose sight of that fact. 

Here, readers do not make the rules, although *they are expected* to abide by them. 

You are not bound to be here, nor will you be missed if you depart. And, keep in mind, that 100 year old psycho you make reference to is still quite capable of kicking your sorry butt around the block, so keep that in mind the next time (which will be your last time) you open your big yap. 

By the way, have you read Hoke's book?

Didn't think so. Your kind never does. Way too busy trying to be clever. 

Harold


----------



## Harold_V

silversaddle1 said:


> Your attitude is noted. It will most likely not serve you well (here) if it remains a constant.
> 
> Harold
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, here we are with the heavy-handed threats about banning people again.
Click to expand...


Listen, smart mouth---there was no mention of banning anyone in my response, so get that out of your simple mind, and do it immediately. 
One thing I won't tolerate from you is you getting cute with me, putting words in my mouth. Go back and reread what I said, and take it to heart. What I said, I meant. Your disruptive comments and attitude are not well accepted by me. If you don't like the way things operate, follow my advice and become a voice. You will get nowhere by badgering me, aside from getting dressed down. 



> I'm a paying member of this forum.


That does NOT give you voting privileges. If you'd like them, please apply with Noxx for a position as a moderator, or, perhaps, even one of being his partner. I can not speak for him in that regard. 



> My opinion on how things are around here should be heard. You may not like my opinion, and that's fine. But don't threaten me over it.


Your opinion should NOT be heard. In case you haven't noticed, this board is not a democracy, so readers don't get to vote on anything. If you are asked for an opinion, even then it won't be binding. Were we to allow the readers to set policy here, this board wouldn't be worth reading, something that most likely has escaped you. Even with our careful guidance, we still have issues--so what do you suppose it would be like if there was none? 



> Harold, you want to be the Captain of this ship, that's fine. Then you come up with a soulution to the problem of the handles and noobie questions. We're all ears.


No, you're not all ears. What you are is someone who doesn't agree with the solution I came up with. That's perfectly obvious, and it's perfectly obvious to me the solution has worked far better than anything else we've tried in the past. We have begged and pleaded with readers to read the board and Hoke's book, at least until they have a basic understanding of refining procedures, so they can ask intelligent questions. What we get in response is the same old thing---no one paying attention, for reasons best known to them, so they continue to ask the VERY QUESTIONS TO WHICH THEY'D GET ANSWERS IF THEY'D FOLLOW THE ADVICE TO READ. 



> You've mistaken my opinion for an "attitude".


I've mistaken nothing, and your comments about your need to be heard prove I'm right. What you have is an attitude problem. You don't like the way things are being operated, so you want to whine. 

I'm not willing to go through this with you, Mr. "I own this board because I contribute". Take it up with Noxx. 

Harold


----------



## Palladium

It's that rights thing again Harold. :lol:


----------



## Geo

this is better than any daytime soap opera. im not trying to make light of the situation because it is serious. this seems to be a battle of wills. im surprised at the level of patience of the moderators. come on guys, really? is this the best use of our time? if you disagree with someone, make your case by all means and stand by what you say, but, say it once and then rest assured that your voice has been heard. i think we all understand the point and this bickering is not helping. does anyone here expect Harold to recant and say "ok, you were right and i was wrong"? why would he? the true power behind this forum is Noxx. if you have a problem with Harold, speak to him and let his answer be the final say. Noxx placed the moderators in a position that (if they wanted to), they can impose rules and theres nothing, nada, that anyone can do about. if the moderators feel that new members should read enough to articulate in a way to gain the full benefit of the question and the answer should we (as guest) say that its wrong for them to expect a certain level of understanding from new members. there is a whole world of information online and even on youtube, that a person interested in refining should be able to pick up enough jargon to not look like a complete spaz when they need advice. ok, my rants over but i would like to leave this with one final note.

picking a fight with the moderators using the name of equality is a fight you are not going to win, plain and simple. the only thing you will accomplish is to ensure that your views will not be seen here afterwards. pick your fights carefully and dont be rude or demeaning. please, no name calling. be polite even if it kills you.


----------



## Palladium

Ha Ha !! Your right Geo. This is better than reality T.V. 
Funny thing is we already know how this turns out, but it's funny to watch it happen anyway. :mrgreen: 
Popcorn anybody?


----------



## rusty

As I mentioned earlier I'm grateful to Ms Hoke for writing her book and Harold for the recommendation of her book. I enjoyed her first book so much that i encouraged forum donations to purchase Testing Precious Metals, once the book was scanned i eventually forwarded it to the contributor making the largest donation.

As a moderator of the alt: Refining Forum I have compartmentalized Hokes book into separate chapters placing each into its own forum where we can assist people with terminology and acquaintance tests along with terminology not familiar to them.

Perhaps once new comers become familiar with Hokes Refining Precious Metals Wastes they'll feel comfortable returning to GRF.

From my observations on GRF most folks process foils, pins and fingers with a handful of members going after precious metals recovered from chips, all of which are not at all difficult to refine.

Best Regards
Rusty


----------



## jeneje

rusty said:


> As a moderator of the alt: Refining Forum I have compartmentalized Hokes book into separate chapters placing each into its own forum where we can assist people with terminology and acquaintance tests along with terminology not familiar to them.
> 
> Best Regards
> Rusty


It looks GREAT rusty, Thank you.
Ken


----------



## rusty

jeneje said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a moderator of the alt: Refining Forum I have compartmentalized Hokes book into separate chapters placing each into its own forum where we can assist people with terminology and acquaintance tests along with terminology not familiar to them.
> 
> Best Regards
> Rusty
> 
> 
> 
> It looks GREAT rusty, Thank you.
> Ken
Click to expand...


Thanks Ken, It took me over a week to scan and make corrections to the OCR input,if people need help to understand Hoke we're going to give it to them - bar none.

I would have suggested this idea to Noxx, but after asking him directly to create the Electrochemistry forum I was persona non grata, so I forced my hand by placing a poll to win that Forum.

This is supposed to be a free forum refiners helping one another not a combat field.


----------



## jeneje

rusty said:


> jeneje said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a moderator of the alt: Refining Forum I have compartmentalized Hokes book into separate chapters placing each into its own forum where we can assist people with terminology and acquaintance tests along with terminology not familiar to them.
> 
> Best Regards
> Rusty
> 
> 
> 
> It looks GREAT rusty, Thank you.
> Ken
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks Ken, It took me over a week to scan and make corrections to the OCR input,if people need help to understand Hoke we're going to give it to them - bar none.
> 
> I would have suggested this idea to Noxx, but after asking him directly to create the Electrochemistry forum I was persona non grata, so I forced my hand by placing a poll to win that Forum.
> 
> This is supposed to be a free forum refiners helping one another not a combat field.
Click to expand...


:lol:


----------



## rusty

jeneje said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeneje said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a moderator of the alt: Refining Forum I have compartmentalized Hokes book into separate chapters placing each into its own forum where we can assist people with terminology and acquaintance tests along with terminology not familiar to them.
> 
> Best Regards
> Rusty
> 
> 
> 
> It looks GREAT rusty, Thank you.
> Ken
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks Ken, It took me over a week to scan and make corrections to the OCR input,if people need help to understand Hoke we're going to give it to them - bar none.
> 
> I would have suggested this idea to Noxx, but after asking him directly to create the Electrochemistry forum I was persona non grata, so I forced my hand by placing a poll to win that Forum.
> 
> This is supposed to be a free forum refiners helping one another not a combat field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> :lol:
Click to expand...


I painted myself into a corner long ago by pointing out to Noxx that the Quebec flag he was displaying to show his country of origin, was wrong and that Canada used the Maple Leaf. No bone to pick but it just goes to show you how easy it is to ruffle someones feathers.


----------



## RikkiRicardo

Sorry if I'm reading this wrong
but at this point i see people attacking this forum that the other is better 
why are they not looking after the other side i just see they were interrupting the forum
and doing thing be hide others back.
like i said all it takes is copy and paste to take out all the hard work
that was put into this 
this is my point of view

Rusty I'm living in Romania But I'm Canadian from Ontario Why does he have to But a Canadian flag he is representing his Province as i represent Ontario Now that i live in Romania
i would use Cluj Napoaca symbol because this is where i live and loving it mountains and land full of gold also the people are great they are here to help
not stab. 
Now that you are a moderator do you think you know everything? from my thought you did not like it here so you moved on that is OK but what are you doing still here
oh learning I'm just giving you my two cents not attacking you just wondering why you and jeneje are still here searching other peoples stuff 

RikkiRicardo


----------



## jeneje

RikkiRicardo said:


> why you and jeneje are still here searching other peoples stuff
> 
> RikkiRicardo


I am not searching other peoples post, I am still a member here as Harold did not ban me. I am not disrupting this forum, nor do I intend too. As for what I have done creating a different forum I have that right, all is welcome there, weather I am here or not.
Ken


----------



## rusty

RikkiRicardo said:


> Sorry if I'm reading this wrong
> but at this point i see people attacking this forum that the other is better
> why are they not looking after the other side i just see they were interrupting the forum
> and doing thing be hide others back.
> like i said all it takes is copy and paste to take out all the hard work
> that was put into this
> this is my point of view
> 
> Rusty I'm living in Romania But I'm Canadian from Ontario Why does he have to But a Canadian flag he is representing his Province as i represent Ontario Now that i live in Romania
> i would use Cluj Napoaca symbol because this is where i live and loving it mountains and land full of gold also the people are great they are here to help
> not stab.
> Now that you are a moderator do you think you know everything? from my thought you did not like it here so you moved on that is OK but what are you doing still here
> oh learning I'm just giving you my two cents not attacking you just wondering why you and jeneje are still here searching other peoples stuff
> 
> RikkiRicardo



He actually displayed the flag as Canadian not Provincial. I laughed my bag off when I first seen it.

I've been a member on GRF for a very long time, any question I ask for help publicly goes unanswered, when I ask the same question privately it gets answered.

The only reason i've hung with GRF this long, if you have the patience someone eventually will ask a similar question which parallels your own problem. I've grown tired of sitting on the fence.

It appears that we are not able to openly discuss our grievances.

As for searching other people stuff, I'll have you know there's two forums of interest which reside on GRF I would like to use some of the information over at the Alt forum, as a matter of courtesy have asked the OP's for permission. I feel that I've been sandbagged by one member with his reply while to other is a gentleman.

I'm not going to get into semantics over being sandbagged, it's not a big issue as neither he nor I have rights to the original work.


----------



## RikkiRicardo

Rusty i have most of your posts you are very good with equipment and building i find then interesting
you wrote
1)I've been a member on GRF for a very long time, any question I ask for help publicly goes unanswered, when I ask the same question privately it gets answered.

There has not been one unanswered question if that was true then i feel that nobody you the answer so don't go saying things that are not there.

2)The only reason i've hung with GRF this long, if you have the patience someone eventually will ask a similar question which parallels your own problem. I've grown tired of sitting on the fence.
again a lie because there has not been a question so you just been sitting on that fence looking up at the sky wondering what you should do next.

3)It appears that we are not able to openly discuss our grievances

There should be no grievances only the people that have nothing better to do and stick around disturbing the forum this is what i see.

4)As for searching other people stuff, I'll have you know there's two forums of interest which reside on GRF I would like to use some of the information over at the Alt forum, as a matter of courtesy have asked the OP's for permission. I feel that I've been sandbagged by one member with his reply while to other is a gentleman.

like i stated you are copying and pasting and just using this forum to do this.I would like to see the people that gave you permission to step up can you have them do this.
be sanbagged by a member is not good but that is something you must solve with that person not the forum

5)I'm not going to get into semantics over being sandbagged, it's not a big issue as neither he nor I have rights to the original work
if i think of who you are referring to i will say you are wrong anyone that post here they post on there free will so what you are saying you are just here to get info for the other site
wow that is just like the guy that is taking the info from here and selling it on ebay.


wow at least i have my office next room to my labs this way I'm not wasting my time just reading and experimenting
and i have a bag of popcorn at this time lol the truth comes out
this is why we have the best and right moderators on here and they will keep this forum going the way it should be.

RikkiRicardo


----------



## AndyWilliams

rusty said:


> I would have suggested this idea to Noxx, but after asking him directly to create the Electrochemistry forum I was persona non grata, so I forced my hand by placing a poll to win that Forum.
> 
> This is supposed to be a free forum refiners helping one another not a combat field.



Persona non grata? Here? Don't you still have your posting privileges? If so, you're not persona non grata. And as you said, you forced your own hand. No one forced you at all.

And I do believe the forum is still free for refiners helping one another. But I don't understand your use of a non-sequitur. Can you help me understand that? One refiner to another?



rusty said:


> I painted myself into a corner long ago by pointing out to Noxx that the Quebec flag he was displaying to show his country of origin, was wrong and that Canada used the Maple Leaf. No bone to pick but it just goes to show you how easy it is to ruffle someones feathers.



It does sound like your feathers were ruffled. Who cares what he used for an avatar, as long as it wasn't offensive? You were wrong to do that. 



rusty said:


> He actually displayed the flag as Canadian not Provincial. I laughed my bag off when I first seen it.
> 
> I've been a member on GRF for a very long time, any question I ask for help publicly goes unanswered, when I ask the same question privately it gets answered.
> 
> The only reason i've hung with GRF this long, if you have the patience someone eventually will ask a similar question which parallels your own problem. I've grown tired of sitting on the fence.
> 
> It appears that we are not able to openly discuss our grievances.



Your presence contradicts your statements, please tell me that the irony isn't lost on you. You are doing just that, discussing your grievances, and for the most part they are rather petty grievances. And why is it that when you ask privately and get a question answered, your reaction is to take the fact that you got a private answer as an insult? YOU GOT AN ANSWER! 

And let's not forget, you did say that this shouldn't be a combat field, didn't you? Openly discussing your grievances results in others arguing against your conclusions. You invite the combat, then lament that it exists. 

The reason the entire thing has blown up is because there is so much minutiae on this board that it's difficult to keep up with just reading all the posts. Your belief that all of your posts should be answered is unrealistic if everyone is free to post the same inane questions over and over. You get an answer privately, but because those with the necessary knowledge don't want to look for them amongst all the other crud, you feel insulted? Talk about bass ackwards!

On another note, how does one display a flag as Canadian and not provincial? Please help me understand that. That you laughed at it, the presumed to tell him it was wrong, how does that not bring about the field of combat? Again, what is the concern?


----------



## RikkiRicardo

AndyWilliams
very well put


RikkiRicardo


----------



## Harold_V

rusty said:


> As for searching other people stuff, I'll have you know there's two forums of interest which reside on GRF I would like to use some of the information over at the Alt forum, as a matter of courtesy have asked the OP's for permission. I feel that I've been sandbagged by one member with his reply while to other is a gentleman.
> 
> I'm not going to get into semantics over being sandbagged, it's not a big issue as neither he nor I have rights to the original work.



If you wish to use *original* work, that's where you should go for the information. If you take from this board to publish elsewhere, you're speaking volumes about your character. Where I come from, people like that are known as thieves. 

One more word said about the owner of this board and it will be the last word. We do not present this forum so readers can complain when they don't get their way. It is presented by those of us who have experience in the field of refining, to help those who wish to learn to refine. It is not presented as a battlefield. 

I'm going to change my policy very quickly where this matter is concerned. No one has been granted the rights to dictate policy on this board, not even those who have contributed. If readers can't come here and behave as the adults we assumed they are, then they are not welcome. 

Not one more word said about Noxx. Do we have an understanding? And drop the senseless drivel about the flag he chooses to display. Who are you to make that call?

Harold

edited to replace misused word. Thanks, Frugal.


----------



## etack

this should come to an end.

We need to find a way to make this work or all the hard work on this forum will be for not.

We need to outline problems and solution not sit around fracturing what we have. I think the overly threatened use of banning is not good for the image of the forum. This is just like anything without new blood it will die. 

This is what I see as problems and solution's.

1) To many people not wanting to do the research.
*we need to find out why. Not all the questions are because of an entailment sentiment. The search function on the top and bottom of the board is not great. The board has a good search function but its in a place you only see if you log in. It MUST be accessible to be used.

*I also think that if there was a page when creating a new post gave you suggestive reading first this might help too. Somehow tying the topic block to the search function.

*why not just delete the post and send a PM to search first. I would say that 75% of the post on this board are worthless in the fact that it is repeated info that is hard to search for or when it is searched for it gives you a post that says search the forum. We need someone to just delete post like that and save the forum space. This should be a moderator that just for deleting nonsense. Or a way to like and not like a topic till it goes away.

*at the bottom of topics that are on the board we should also have related topics to also read.

People are like water always looking for the path of least resistance. If you can let technology do the work let it.

On the topic of usernames I am full agreement that they should be appropriate and if that means that I need to go through all 26,000 and look for ones you cant put on a license plates so be it. I also don't respond to a user name I don't like it is a representation of that person.


Eric


----------



## Harold_V

AndyWilliams said:


> The reason the entire thing has blown up is because there is so much minutiae on this board that it's difficult to keep up with just reading all the posts.


So, naturally, the *solution* to that would be to allow yet more of the minutiae to be posted (the same old questions, time and again), as if that, somehow, will make things better? That appears to be the logic of the dissenters. They insist on their rights to post, but appear to resent the notion that they need to learn something first. A sure sign of the times---from the "me first" generation. 

Is it any wonder that I started demanding that new readers not post? They have made this board useless via their lack of willingness to do anything to better themselves by the way of studying.

One of my observations where this matter is concerned is that we have a small pool of experts on this board (I do not count myself amoungst them, nor should I). So long as they remain here, there is nothing to be gained by a second forum, alhtough there is a function the second forum can provide--one of allowing stupid questions to be asked, to the point where that forum, too, becomes bogged down by those with no drive to learn anything--so they'll end up with a perfect example of the blind leading the lame. The blind, who can't see to lead (they've made that perfectly evident by their presence on this board), leading the lame, who are unwilling to be taught (they, too, have proven that to be the case by being on this board). 

It is my opinion that unless this entire matter is dropped, we should further thin the herd on this board. We can get it reduced to the point where it becomes functional and far less combative. Those with a serious desire to learn, instead of those with a want for a fast buck, will remain. Those who are here for the wrong reasons will most likely depart, making the forum a much better place to visit, with a vast amount of knowledge (and support) at one's disposal. 

Harold


----------



## Harold_V

etack said:


> I think the overly threatened use of banning is not good for the image of the forum.


I agree. It's a last resort measure, however, as nothing we have tried has worked, and even that doesn't work as well as I hoped, as we still get posts that shouldn't be on the board. Readers simply have to change the way they view this board. It is not here to hold their hand, all the while they do nothing. They either start studying, or they're not going to be here. The choice is theirs, but we can't allow this insanity to continue, as it no longer serves the purpose for which it was intended. 

One of the reasons I backed off (a few months ago) on this board was because I could no longer read all of the posts. Up until that day, I had read every post on the board. The overwhelming numbers of redundant questions made it such that I knew I could no longer dedicate my time to the board. 

When I posted the NOTICE (it was not a threat---I meant it to the letter) that new readers posting stupid questions would be banned, something almost magical happened. Suddenly, the board was not so filled with new posts, and the vast majority of those that were posted were valid questions. That allowed me to, once again, read the board. 

New readers will not keep this board alive. What will keep this board alive is readers who are willing to learn--readers who will dedicate time to learning. Those who come here for a fast buck lend nothing to the forum. Those are the readers who should be elsewhere, as they are the very readers who have muddied this forum to the point of being useless. 

Harold


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## rusty

Harold_V said:


> AndyWilliams said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason the entire thing has blown up is because there is so much minutiae on this board that it's difficult to keep up with just reading all the posts.
> 
> 
> 
> So, naturally, the *solution* to that would be to allow yet more of the minutiae to be posted (the same old questions, time and again), as if that, somehow, will make things better? That appears to be the logic of the dissenters. They insist on their rights to post, but appear to resent the notion that they need to learn something first. A sure sign of the times---from the "me first" generation.
> 
> Is it any wonder that I started demanding that new readers not post? They have made this board useless via their lack of willingness to do anything to better themselves by the way of studying.
> 
> One of my observations where this matter is concerned is that we have a small pool of experts on this board (I do not count myself amoungst them, nor should I). So long as they remain here, there is nothing to be gained by a second forum, alhtough there is a function the second forum can provide--one of allowing stupid questions to be asked, to the point where that forum, too, becomes bogged down by those with no drive to learn anything--so they'll end up with a perfect example of the blind leading the lame. The blind, who can't see to lead (they've made that perfectly evident by their presence on this board), leading the lame, who are unwilling to be taught (they, too, have proven that to be the case by being on this board).
> 
> It is my opinion that unless this entire matter is dropped, we should further thin the herd on this board. We can get it reduced to the point where it becomes functional and far less combative. Those with a serious desire to learn, instead of those with a want for a fast buck, will remain. Those who are here for the wrong reasons will most likely depart, making the forum a much better place to visit, with a vast amount of knowledge (and support) at one's disposal.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


Ban me the pleasure would be mine.


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## FrugalRefiner

rusty said:


> As for searching other people stuff, I'll have you know there's two forums of interest which reside on GRF I would like to use some of the information over at the Alt forum, as a matter of courtesy have asked the OP's for permission. I feel that I've been sandbagged by one member with his reply while to other is a gentleman.
> 
> I'm not going to get into semantics over being sandbagged, it's not a big issue as neither he nor I have rights to the original work.


I've tried hard not to add to the clutter that this thread has become, but I can't help but react to this statement. Rusty, please correct me if I'm wrong, but based on your post I am guessing I am the member you are referring to as having sandbagged you. I think it's important to share with this forum (and by extension, to the members of the new forum who are still following this thread) our recent, brief exchange via PM:



rusty said:


> Do you have any objection my uploading your printer friendly version of Hoke to the forum being disputed, then linking to the GRF page so that people can get instructions for printing and binding.
> 
> Best Regards
> Gill





FrugalRefiner said:


> Gill,
> 
> I really appreciate you asking. As with your efforts, neither of us holds any copyright, but we both put a lot of time and effort into creating the versions we have. Thank you for asking and not just assuming it would be OK.
> 
> To be honest, I'm torn. I created my version as a way of giving back to the GRF, and asked our members not to distribute it outside the forum. On the other hand, I have no axe to grind against anyone who wants to start their own forum and I put in my effort with no expectation of any return than helping others to learn refining.
> 
> I'll ask you to give me a little time to see how all this sorts itself out. I registered as a member of the new forum earlier today. Let me take a look around and I'll get back to you soon.
> 
> Again, thank you for asking,
> Dave


I sent this reply on September 18, 2013 at 9:29 pm. That was less than 24 hours ago. I asked for a little time. I guess 24 hours was too much to ask, so if you feel I've sandbagged you, so be it. 

You've actually just made my decision easy. I originally asked that my printer friendly version remain solely on the GRF, as it was intended to give back to this forum. I ask the members of the new forum to respect that request. You have your new moderator to thank for my harsh decision.

Dave


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## rusty

FrugalRefiner said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for searching other people stuff, I'll have you know there's two forums of interest which reside on GRF I would like to use some of the information over at the Alt forum, as a matter of courtesy have asked the OP's for permission. I feel that I've been sandbagged by one member with his reply while to other is a gentleman.
> 
> I'm not going to get into semantics over being sandbagged, it's not a big issue as neither he nor I have rights to the original work.
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried hard not to add to the clutter that this thread has become, but I can't help but react to this statement. Rusty, please correct me if I'm wrong, but based on your post I am guessing I am the member you are referring to as having sandbagged you. I think it's important to share with this forum (and by extension, to the members of the new forum who are still following this thread) our recent, brief exchange via PM:
> 
> 
> 
> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any objection my uploading your printer friendly version of Hoke to the forum being disputed, then linking to the GRF page so that people can get instructions for printing and binding.
> 
> Best Regards
> Gill
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FrugalRefiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gill,
> 
> I really appreciate you asking. As with your efforts, neither of us holds any copyright, but we both put a lot of time and effort into creating the versions we have. Thank you for asking and not just assuming it would be OK.
> 
> To be honest, I'm torn. I created my version as a way of giving back to the GRF, and asked our members not to distribute it outside the forum. On the other hand, I have no axe to grind against anyone who wants to start their own forum and I put in my effort with no expectation of any return than helping others to learn refining.
> 
> I'll ask you to give me a little time to see how all this sorts itself out. I registered as a member of the new forum earlier today. Let me take a look around and I'll get back to you soon.
> 
> Again, thank you for asking,
> Dave
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I sent this reply on September 18, 2013 at 9:29 pm. That was less than 24 hours ago. I asked for a little time. I guess 24 hours was too much to ask, so if you feel I've sandbagged you, so be it.
> 
> You've actually just made my decision easy. I originally asked that my printer friendly version remain solely on the GRF, as it was intended to give back to this forum. I ask the members of the new forum to respect that request. You have your new moderator to thank for my harsh decision.
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...


You have no more right to Hokes - Refining Precious Metals than I do. While my copy was in the wild, it actually promoted the sale of the book as many folks were willing to purchase the hard copy after previewing the book while your version does nothing for the sale of the book.

Do we all just assume the GRF owner will keep the forum active forever, it may well be his intent but life sometimes throws a curve ball, changing the course of ones destiny. What then.


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## AndyWilliams

rusty said:


> Ban me the pleasure would be mine.



It seems that has been the end you have been seeking, for some time now. You can certainly "ban" yourself, though that might not satisfy your craving. On the other hand, remaining here, contributing and benefiting, would be the wiser route. 

It is, in the end, your choice. And as I see them, you have three choices. First, you leave of your own accord. Second, you act badly to receive the ban you so desire, to show yourself as the martyr you believe you are. Third, you remain and contribute what you know and learn from those further along in their refining. The last option, while the wisest, is the most difficult to travel. I'm not sure you have that in you. I see more of number two in your thoughts, literally and figuratively.


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## AndyWilliams

rusty said:


> You have no more right to Hokes - Refining Precious Metals than I do. While my copy was in the wild, it actually promoted the sale of the book as many folks were willing to purchase the hard copy after previewing the book while your version does nothing for the sale of the book.



And in your rage, what will you do? Revoke the honorable intention you exhibited, initially? Is that what you are made of?


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## etack

AndyWilliams said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ban me the pleasure would be mine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that has been the end you have been seeking, for some time now. You can certainly "ban" yourself, though that might not satisfy your craving. On the other hand, remaining here, contributing and benefiting, would be the wiser route.
> 
> It is, in the end, your choice. And as I see them, you have three choices. First, you leave of your own accord. Second, you act badly to receive the ban you so desire, to show yourself as the martyr you believe you are. Third, you remain and contribute what you know and learn from those further along in their refining. The last option, while the wisest, is the most difficult to travel. I'm not sure you have that in you. I see more of number two in your thoughts, literally and figuratively.
Click to expand...



This is not the first,second,third.... time that this has happened. Most or the time he gets mad and delete everything he has done. The forum is littered with the pock marks of Gill being mad and deleting his posts.

Eric


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## JHS

Did you ever wonder why there are new members that post the same old question,and never go back to that post?
It's because there are actually two forums on GRF.there is the one that everyone sees and the one that only two see.
There has been a forum running in the background with pm's for long before I came here.
When i first posted,a long standing member contacted me.he tutored me through pm;s,to complete the task at hand.
he also encouraged me to read,hoke and everything I could on the forum.I decided that I would have a great advantage if,'and only if I took his advice.So i did.
I am very thankful that he took the time out of his life to help me.If he didin't I would have most likely have given up.
It seemed an impossable task to learn on my own.As was proven after a year of study on the net.With just a little help,i was on the right road.Yes I have run into a few snags since,but now I know enough to find what I need.
Now the reason I have said what I have is THERE IS A DANGER IN THE PM FORUN.
The danger is,if just one bit of information is wrongly given,there is no one else to see it,or to correct it.
There should be no reason that these two forums could not co-exist.One could complement the other very well.
While GRF has a vast knowledge base,It no longer really has the time or space for the new member questions.At the same time the other forum has the time,and there are members who's names might suprise many.
THIS SHOULD NOT BE A COMPETION,it should be two forums working hand in hand helping man kind.
NOW it's time for you to once again tear down the walls so you have a clear view to throw rocks at me.
john


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## Palladium

Well then we all wish you luck!


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## FrugalRefiner

He asked here:


rusty said:


> Ban me the pleasure would be mine.


and here on September 2, 2013: Looks Like someone doing a takeoff of LazerSteve


rusty said:


> butcher for this very reason I would like to delete every post and picture I've ever posted to this forum.


and back on September 13, 2010 in this thread: Jokes on the forum


gustavus said:


> Noxx you may recall that I emailed you several weeks back asking you to delete my account from the forum, now I'm asking you publically to remove my account from the forum - thanks.
> 
> Best Regards
> Gill


How many times does he have to ask?

Dave


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## 4metals

John (JHS)

Since I became a moderator the number of PM's I receive grew considerably. I cannot tell you how many times I tell members the benefit of posting questions and having them answered on public forum so everyone can benefit. That is a request that is rarely listened to. 

But the PM can also be a valuable tool. I have also used it to help members with methods and techniques that I feel the masses on the forum are not qualified to use. I know that sounds condescending on my part but there are some techniques that I feel have inherent danger involved and based on the way some members act and the questions they ask, I make a judgement as to wether or not the answer they need is one that they can handle safely. Then I relay that to them privately, and I explain why I am doing it that way, often requesting that the technique not be posted on public forum. Does this make the forum really 2 forums? One running for everyone to see and one where members who have taken the time to describe their processes and detail their issues can get help they rightfully deserve (in my opinion) and not invite a lazy dumb ass to hurt himself. People that do their homework and have issues deserve to be rewarded and if that cannot be done on the public forum.... well shoot me.


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## JHS

There are two men in this thread that i have to admire.
Harold for his stead fast attitude and his deternination to stand up for what he believes in.
Ken for his actions to do something about what he believes in.
everyone else just sit on the couch and complain.
at least there are two men of action.


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## patnor1011

JHS said:


> There are two men in this thread that i have to admire.
> Harold for his stead fast attitude and his deternination to stand up for what he believes in.
> Ken for his actions to do something about what he believes in.
> everyone else just sit on the couch and complain.
> at least there are two men of action.



This is very funny statement. Be careful what you say about others as some people may take it personally. 
I can point to your recent post - the one where you guess yield of 2.8oz from 34 pounds of RAM. Now that is funny too.


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## JHS

patnor1011 said:


> JHS said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are two men in this thread that i have to admire.
> Harold for his stead fast attitude and his deternination to stand up for what he believes in.
> Ken for his actions to do something about what he believes in.
> everyone else just sit on the couch and complain.
> at least there are two men of action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is very funny statement. Be careful what you say about others as some people may take it personally.
> I can point to your recent post - the one where you guess yield of 2.8oz from 34 pounds of RAM. Now that is funny too.
Click to expand...


If my 2.8 oz was wrong then we should correct a recent post where a member got over 7 oz from 84 pounds as reported.
that's what I read.


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## AndyWilliams

patnor1011 said:


> JHS said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are two men in this thread that i have to admire.
> Harold for his stead fast attitude and his deternination to stand up for what he believes in.
> Ken for his actions to do something about what he believes in.
> everyone else just sit on the couch and complain.
> at least there are two men of action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is very funny statement. Be careful what you say about others as some people may take it personally.
> I can point to your recent post - the one where you guess yield of 2.8oz from 34 pounds of RAM. Now that is funny too.
Click to expand...


Very true.


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## patnor1011

Of course we should. That is pure nonsense. That mean RAM as whole yield more than s/n? Do not believe everything you read.


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## JHS

So you are saying that I look stupid because I took another mans word as truth.
Now, should I should consider that I am reading some false information in other subjects as well?processes?
If members post false information ,then every post would have to be questioned.
Now what about the poor man who buys 84 pounds of rams based on the information he belived to be correct, and
does not get the results he expected.
I suppose the only real truth, is what you can hold in your own hand in the end.
That's sad.


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## patnor1011

Common sense.
Do your homework.
Search.

Come on, false information? It is us who spread them if we do not take at least a minute to confirm or verify. 
7oz from 84 pounds - a minute of math. 
9,450 $ for 84 pounds is what? 112.5$/lb That is way too much even for ebay. 
You did this mistake by not trying to verify it by 1 minute of counting. 
I want to ask you to point me to that thread. I wonder how it is possible it slipped through.


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## patnor1011

Your last two sentences, while one is correct - you are better off to state what you can accomplish or what your experience is. But it is not sad, it is just fact. Everyone know what they may get from one pentium pro but there is no guarantee everyone will get get to that number.


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## JHS

Everyone know what they may get from one pentium pro but there is no guarantee everyone will get get to that number.

Now thats the truth.unless you belive a false report.see my point.


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## 4metals

> Now thats the truth.unless you believe a false report.see my point.



That is my biggest fear of the internet. I am trained as a scientist, I approach everything using the scientific approach. i listen to what is said, look for obvious flaws, and then test the hypothesis myself. Then, and only then, will I pass on something I have been casually told or read on the internet as a fact. 

Some of you may have heard of a book called Gold Refining by George Gajda. That was published in 1978 and there are so many mistakes in that book it is scary. My point is you can never believe everything you read, you have to be smart about it and before you pass it on as the gospel, do some experimentation on your own. Even Hoke told people to add gasoline to sweeps and burn them! I'm sure there were a few old jewelers with singed eyebrows regretting that part of the book. Fortunately, members of this forum noticed the danger in her technique and pointed it out. 

The value of posting something which is unchecked is only valuable as a starting place from which verification can always improve the quality of the post. Unfortunately we have people on this forum who have gold fever, they read a post saying 84 pounds.....7 ounce recovery and they think they are going to be rich. Hopefully they dig a little deeper and do some of their own testing before they invest heavily in a fools folly!


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## AndyWilliams

4metals said:


> Unfortunately we have people on this forum who have gold fever, they read a post saying 84 pounds.....7 ounce recovery and they think they are going to be rich. Hopefully they dig a little deeper and do some of their own testing before they invest heavily in a fools folly!



4metals, 

I agree with your post. I only pull this bit out to illustrate a point. I haven't found any that says 84 pounds, 7 ounces of gold. JHS hasn't yet provided that link, and I couldn't find it with a cursory search. But that is your point, I think, that these things are propagated from bad information, or in this case, intentional deception. The more these numbers are repeated, the more life they are given. Parroting the information is not responsible and some investigation would reveal the real possibilities.


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## JHS

AndyWilliams,
I am sorry that I can not provide the link to 84=7.
I thought I read it on the board last week,but it may well have been during a search.
I did not look to see whose post it ,as when I search,unless I have a question directly relater to a that post I move on.
I will spend some more time trying to find it.I do remember that another member posted 100 pounds as his guess,then he was told it was 84 lbs.
sorry I havent found it
John


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## 4metals

The point of this is not that you find the reference, the point is if you cannot verify something either ask if anyone else can or point it out as bogus. Passing on misinformation degrades the forum.


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## JHS

butcher said:


> The memory fingers were trimmed from the memory and processed in the copper II chloride leach (acid peroxide) to remove gold foils, these foils are processed for gold, from 2.25 pounds of close cut memory fingers I got 6 grams of gold, about 2.6 grams of gold per pound of close cut memory fingers.




Andy,this is not the post i was looking for but by my calculations.this represents over 8 oz of gold per 100 lbs.of trimed fingers.am i wrong or has this been falsely reported as well as the 84 pounds of trimed fingers?
john


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## AndyWilliams

JHS said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> The memory fingers were trimmed from the memory and processed in the copper II chloride leach (acid peroxide) to remove gold foils, these foils are processed for gold, from 2.25 pounds of close cut memory fingers I got 6 grams of gold, about 2.6 grams of gold per pound of close cut memory fingers.
> 
> 
> Andy,this is not the post i was looking for but by my calculations.this represents over 8 oz of gold per 100 lbs.of trimed fingers.am i wrong or has this been falsely reported as well as the 84 pounds of trimed fingers?
> john
Click to expand...


I think I understand the confusion. I just read back through the posts, and the word usage was rather sloppy. References to RAM are just that, a whole RAM card. 84 pounds of closely trimmed fingers are not 84 pounds of RAM. 84 pounds of closely trimmed fingers could yield 7toz in the right hands, not mine, but somebody's! Further, 2.8toz yield from 34 pounds of RAM is quite unlikely. But, 2.8toz yield from 34 pounds of closely trimmed fingers is possible.


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## butcher

Lets just get back to helping each other refine gold :lol:


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## moose7802

I have just read this post for the first time as I was fairly new here when it was started and to busy just reading tutorials and Hoke. All I can say is WOW!!


Thanks
Tyler


----------

