# Mic ?



## Palladium

Where is Mic? Has anyone heard from him?


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## glondor

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe he has a new log in. Maybe I should give him a call.


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## Palladium

No one ??????

Did something happen that i missed?


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## jeneje

Mic sent this pm to me on June 13, "It went through just fine Ken.I will get this out to you in the next couple of days.Unfortunately I may not be on the forum any longer so you will have to email me to get the information that I have about it.
Johnny"

Dont know what he meant by but maybe someone can check on him I do not have a number for him.
Ken


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## Harold_V

He sent me a PM in whch he said he was leaving the fourm. To my knowledge, he has not returned. I do not have an email address. 

Harold


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## Palladium

I don't know where that email address went that was here earlier, but i sent an email to it to. I also sent one to his wife's pm box here on the forum. She or someone logged in the other nite after i posted this thread from that account. Hummmm....


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## nickvc

I must admit he's sorely missed, this forum after all is like one large extended family, let's hope all is well and he may return to the fold at some stage.


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## Lou

eh, didn't notice.


Fare him well!


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## Barren Realms 007

They are still around this was sent to me today it is a link to one of his ebay auctions. I wanted to post it in the best of Ebay but will have to search for the thread.

You will love this one over $575.00 per lb for melted pins... :lol: With 4 more auctions waiting.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/112-6-grams-3-5-troy-oz-melt-drop-bar-of-scrap-computer-Gold-plated-pins-/281001385056?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416cfcdc60


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## goldenchild

Barren Realms 007 said:


> They are still around this was sent to me today it is a link to one of his ebay auctions. I wanted to post it in the best of Ebay but will have to search for the thread.
> 
> You will love this one over $575.00 per lb for melted pins... :lol: With 4 more auctions waiting.
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/112-6-grams-3-5-troy-oz-melt-drop-bar-of-scrap-computer-Gold-plated-pins-/281001385056?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416cfcdc60



So they are some of the sellers selling that type of thing?  Maybe thats why he left the forum.


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## glondor

Awww damn. Johnny would have been one of the first ones to jump on that type of thing and expose it as a fraud. When times get tough.... some people will slide off of the rails. I have called Johnny's home and cell as well as text-ed and emailed several times in the past 6 weeks. All were no answer.


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## samuel-a

To be honest... this is truly tempting, seeing this scrap being sold at 10x or more of its true value as I have mountains of low/medium/high grade pins.

After all, he did say it is made of gold plated pins, i do not see any fraud there... just making money from ignorance.

This now becomes an ethical issue now... Would you sleep good knowing you are doing this?


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## Geo

any reputable member of this forum should find this very unethical. its the same as stealing. i believe the term is is fleecing. preying on the uninformed and then justify it by saying "well, they were told what it was". the problem with that is most people have no idea what the true value of the material is. if the total value of the material was in the listing, do you think anyone would buy it?


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## Anonymous

Geo said:


> any reputable member of this forum should find this very unethical. its the same as stealing. i believe the term is is fleecing. preying on the uninformed and then justify it by saying "well, they were told what it was". the problem with that is most people have no idea what the true value of the material is. if the total value of the material was in the listing, do you think anyone would buy it?


I have a longer "final" reply that has already been written and will be posted immediately after this response.
Geo,if what you say is true,and these buyers are aware of what is contained within the bars,then why aren't "pins" selling for the same price?
It is explained,almost in graphic detail,what the bars are made of.I can't do any more than that.
Now I will post a final reply below


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## Anonymous

Barren Realms 007 said:


> They are still around this was sent to me today it is a link to one of his ebay auctions. I wanted to post it in the best of Ebay but will have to search for the thread.
> 
> You will love this one over $575.00 per lb for melted pins... :lol: With 4 more auctions waiting.
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/112-6-grams-3-5-troy-oz-melt-drop-bar-of-scrap-computer-Gold-plated-pins-/281001385056?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416cfcdc60


Barren I was a member of this forum years before you came here.Did you really think this would not get back to me?



> Awww damn. Johnny would have been one of the first ones to jump on that type of thing and expose it as a fraud.


Glondor,you know how far back we go. But I dare ONE person to show me where any "fraudulent" activity is,in that auction. I have explained in graphic detail,what the bar is.I have repeat customers,and have yet to get a single negative feedback.That is not saying that I won't at some point....but I have made it abundantly clear what is in the bars.
Barren,I have been off of this forum for many months,and haven't bothered you,or anyone else.I do not wish to speak to anyone on the forum,and explaining why would be useless,because it is not going to change my life one way or another.I gave up processing almost 6 months ago,and haven't touched anything since.I sold off all of my chemicals and most of my labware.I scrapped my ballmill,and and gave away my furnaces.The lab I once had,is now a computer room,that I use to fix computers.I am a lot less stressed since I left the forum,and I am a lot less angry of a person.I would have rathered you left me the hell alone personally,considering I haven't said one word on this forum for a very long time,and didn't deserve that little stab.
Glondor,I am sorry I have not answered,or returned any of your attemps to contact me.You are one of very many people that I have not answered.
I want you all to understand,I am fine.All of us here are fine.But I want nothing to do with the forum.All of you that were my friends(you too Frank,and Jack),will ALWAYS have a special place in my heart.....reguardless of what happened between us. That was a time in my life that I will never forget,and I am grateful for all of those people that helped me,and those that allowed me to help them.
To the Mods....I am well aware of all the private messages that you all sent me,and while I do appreciate it,I am not going to read them.All of you hold a very special place in my heart,Harold,Oz,and Steve especially.But I have no intentions of coming back.
I would appreciate if you would please instruct others to not make "jabs" at me while I am not here.I have done nothing wrong,and I don't deserve that.
(Samuel just posted,this is my response to that post)
Thank you Sam for sticking up for me,and yes I sleep fine. The buyers are going to buy them one way or another,whether it is from me or someone else.And as you stated,I do make it abundantly clear what the bars are made of.If anyone has a problem with any bar they have purchased,I will address the problem then.But I have quite a few repeat buyers,and have _yet_ to have a problem.
I am asking everyone to please not try to contact me again.I am not the some person you all once knew.That was a different Johnny,I am calmer and happier now.Frank I am sorry for what happened between us.Jack I am also sorry for what happened between us.There was a few moments when I thought you had something to do with us being scammed.But that was only the first day after everything blew up.After that,I really didn't think you had anything to do with it.
Good bye everyone (again)


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## Palladium

We missed you and i hope things are good for you Mic.


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## Smack

I saw through his facade long ago. Do as you say not as you do right alice?


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## Ocean

Johnny, I wish you all the best.


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## samuel-a

Mic, i too wish you all the best with you life.

Just to be clear, i'm not taking sides here (in regards to this type of auctions).
The point of the post was to arouse a debate on this subject.

I did ment what i said, i don't see it as fraud. Fleecing is probably a more proper description, but we must not forget, many many many businesses around the world wouldn't have existed without it, including most of the giant companies.
In the case of scrap auctions on eBay, it is more blunt then the regular marketing strategies used by large companies. I agree, but still the same. The qustion is where to draw the line.

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Personally, i wouldn't do that, my conscious wouldn't let me. 
Is it tempting? hell yea.


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## Geo

Mic, i stand by what i said. you and i have never had any bad words and i hope that doesnt change. i truly am glad things are better for you and will miss your input. your auctions and others like it have been the subject of discussion on the board several times and the consensus was always the same. the fact that it is being done by a trusted member of the forum (even a former member) is somewhat shocking. i am no saint and i dont try to pass judgement on anyone, but this has been discussed and all the forum has denounced it as bad behavior.


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## rusty

My only complaint is that the gold content in Johnny's bars is to high to run them in a copper cell.


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## Harold_V

My opinion?

A question of conscience. What mic (or leavemealone, or Johnnie, or marianealice) has done is not illegal, not as far as I can see. He clearly disclosed what he's selling. 

The problem is, there's no shortage of misinformed people, who don't understand what they've read----or they're greedy and hope to capitalize on the "ignorance" of the guy melting pins. 

It's a moral call. He can sell his pins the way he's selling them. The question is------should he? 

The best way to come to conclusions when you are in doubt is to reverse the circumstances involved. Become the winner/victim of the situation. When you finally understand what has transpired, will you be pleased with the results? If you wouldn't like buying such material, assuming you do have a conscience, and assuming you really don't want to take advantage of others, they wouldn't be sold as they're being sold. 

Harold


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## Harold_V

rusty said:


> My only complaint is that the gold content in Johnny's bars is to high to run them in a copper cell.


Don't think so. The gold content could be a few percentage points and not be troublesome (they aren't even close to 1%). The real problem with the alloy is the presence of other base metals, which quickly foul the electrolyte of a copper cell. That's not to say they can't be parted, for they can. It's just not as efficient as if the copper was highly predominant as compared to other base metals (98% or better).

Harold


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## rusty

The educated man has the power to make sound decisions when buying precious metals, Ms. C.M. Hoke made this possible when she published her book "Testing Precious Metals Wastes" in 1946 written in layman's terms.

Thanks to the many forum members who made donations to purchase this book and my efforts to digitize, her book has been available for several years at no cost for those willing to seek it out.

In recent times even large nations have been taken in with counterfeit gold trade bars, I myself would never purchase gold without being able to perform appropriate tests, even those as simple of which Ms. Hoke has outlined in her book. 

The GRF forum has grown to the point of having many thousands of members willingly sharing in their knowledge, we can take some responsibility for educating the common man regardless of age, color or race. Is it our responsibility to judge his/her morals.

I find little humor in reading of fools buying swamp land and quickly turn the page to a more news worthy story.

The forum agenda is to teach not POLICE.

When I was only a lad my father advised me not to fornicate with those of infirm mind.


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## RikkiRicardo

Rusty a man a wisdom



Rikki


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## NobleMetalWorks

I like the fact there are discussions of morality on this form. I think it has real value. 

Considering how many refiners do rip people off, and how many people are looking for honest refiners. I really like the fact that we discuss, and LEARN about morality and how to conduct ourselves in this type of business. It's instruction some may need more than others, it's learning how to behave. It's setting standards that hopefully most people will follow. Also people whom we deal with, our potential customers, read these posts as well. If we conduct ourselves in a way that is a cut above all other refiners, then we will gain the trust of people looking for those of us that do live by a code of ethics and/or morals. It elevates the status of any refiner on this forum just by association. So while we are learning HOW to process and refine, we are also learning HOW to conduct ourselves in a way that the larger refineries do not. It's what separates those of us that are small operations, from those larger.

Here is the really sad part in all of this. I truly believe that most large refineries will rip you off if given the chance. If you do not represent your melt, you are almost guaranteed to loose more than what is normal. That type of behavior by a large refinery, while upsetting and wrong, in no way compares to selling gold drops of melted pins. 

And yet, not even large refiners sell material like this.

To be totally honest, I don't even like the fact there is a member, or ex-member, on this forum that is stating his/her behavior should be acceptable just because they are describing what they are selling correctly. If one of my customers came to this board, and read this post and specifically anything that states this kind of action is acceptable, they very well might get it in their head that there is a percentage of people who operate in the gray area in the same way.

Mic, I hope you do well in your life. I am not posting this as an attack on your personally, I am only referring to the subject matter and not anything you may or may not have done or sold. I have nothing against you personally.

I am big on benchmarking. Take a business or person who is at the top of their game, who does things better than you do. Then use them as a marker, as your goal, try to be similar and then try to exceed if possible. There is someone I have modeled my own business morality after, on this forum. And it has served me very well indeed. :mrgreen: 

Scott


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## qst42know

Two issues stand out among the completed auctions that bother me.

Absurd "buy it now" prices imply a value that doesn't exist.

To my knowledge the unit of measure "troy ounce" is reserved for precious metals only. To sell brass by the troy ounce is a misrepresentation.

Sucker fishing does appear profitable but at what cost?


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## ericrm

qst42know said:


> Sucker fishing does appear profitable but at what cost?


at the cost that they will learn and stop buying  ... witch is basicaly a part of the process we all got thru at some time in our buying/selling life...

edit: they will learn and join a forum,tell all theyr friend the truth about ebay, shor, magic apearing gold, how to test to make sure there is gold, how to leach ,how to separate ... i wonder why i have this dejas vu............

2edit: when there is no lie i dont care ,f.g lier is something else ,dont take me wrong, its ok to say theyr is "some" gold.it is not ok to say sell your house to be rich, you will get 20g by lbs from my pci slot melted pins.........


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## Geo

its the mass hysteria of get rich quick, pie in the sky society the world has found itself. a fool and his money are soon parted.anyone can find an object that is associated with value even if the object is not valuable in itself, people will see values where none exist.its the perceived value thats hooks people and makes them spend money foolishly. if you had a trusting, but mentally challenged neighbor who wanted to buy your lawn mower and offered you 10 times what it was worth, would you accept his offer? if you do, that doesnt make the neighbor foolish because he doesnt know better and it doesnt make you dishonest because he offered. but it does show a lack of morals because even though he didnt know better, you did. you would have taken advantage of that person just the same as offering something virtually worthless for sale but including things in the pitch that would lead a person that didnt understand to believe it was indeed worth something. of coarse it can be made into jewelry. any metal and even non-metal can be made into jewelry.

im sorry about the rant, but i struggle so hard to recover the values from the same material. it irritates me to see people spend so much money on so little value.


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## oldgeek

In my opinion this discussion serves no purpose, and divides the forum. It has me wanting to pack my bags.

I personally do not know Mic, and did not care about him, until now.
It seems to me that he left the forum behind to do his own thing, to insulate himself from others here. Only to be drawn back by words that should not have been spoken here in the first place. I have a real problem with people using this venue to take pot shots whenever they are feeling froggy. :evil: 
He is following feebay rules, he has 100% positive feedback, he accurately describes his items. Who are we to judge? 

Have any of us ever sold something, and got paid too much money? Think hard. I sold an window A/C unit the other day, I told the guy to "make me an offer" he said $150.00. I would have taken $125.00 am I bad also? I constantly hear people here talking about selling things like fingers on feebay because they can get more for them there. Is that also wrong? I have a feeling I just ticked off a bunch of you, and I am not sorry. Stop the pile on. A fool and his money are soon parted. Just in case you are wondering, Yes, I have been the fool PLENTY of times.

edit (missed a key word)


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## cnbarr

This entire post is a conundrum, I'm not saying that what mic is doing is right or wrong, (I have personally thought about doing this, but I could not live with myself if I did). Take for instance the "infamous list" and "1g per pentium pro", how many people on this forum know there is only 0.3-0.45g per PP, but still sell them on ebay for $25-$30 or more a piece??? Is that in any way different? 

I know I don't have the camaraderie here, like that of many of the more prominent members have, but who is anyone here to judge how man takes care of his family. It seems mic is just trying to pay his bills and take care of his family (I could be wrong), while building a business. How is it different then any other business, product, supply, demand? 

Whether or not anyone agrees with this is truly irreverent, business is business, no matter who feels it is moral or not. Palladium recently made a post (within the last 3-4 months) about acid costs, and Harold commented how the chemical industry is screwing most people on the "true" cost of chemicals. Is that immoral that a company can sell nitric at $3/gal but a retail outfit will sell it for $52/2.2L? Is it right that General Motors can build a car for $3000, but a car dealership sells it $12,000? And lets not even get started on the cost of gas!

Ethics and Values is a hard lined subject that is truly a matter of perception and personal believe, much like religion, what is right to one is not necessarily right to another. Leave moral judgment to your own deity, they can decide when we die, we are all here to refine and help each other improve on those skills. 

Has mic in anyway taken advantage of anyone on this forum with his ebay listings? I think not, we all know better, right? It is all a matter of perception combined with education, I used to be ignorant enough to pay $56 for 2.2L of nitric, but after a little education and research I'm that much wiser! 

Big business exploits everyone of us every day, and we take it with no qualms, if mic can sleep at night let the man alone to live his life!

I don't normally interject my opinion on political topics, but this is my $1.05.


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## NobleMetalWorks

I posted in a new thread about the morality of eBay auctions in the hopes that we can maybe separate the personal reference to Mic.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15953

Scott


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## Geo

i do apologize if i seem to come "unhinged" about this. i agree each person is responsible for their own moral compass. do keep on mind that no member is obligated to follow any guidelines here other than the rules of the forum. that being said, there are members (im one) that feel obligated to try and set an example for new members so they will know that there is certain practices that are frowned upon. to turn a blind eye to bad behavior of this nature seeds the same bad behavior in people coming here to learn a new hobby or even a new trade. i wish Mic no ill will and hope he succeeds in whatever endeavor he embarks on.he was always willing to help when he could and even though i didnt know him personally any more than i know any one of you,i did feel a kinship with him because we belong to the same great organization, the GRF.it feels kind of like some kind of betrayal of the standards some of us try to hold ourselves.


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## cnbarr

Well said Geo, and whether my post above reflects it or not, I truly do feel the same way!


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## rusty

A beautiful young woman 15 years of age recently committed suicide here in Canada over cyber-bullying , her name was Amanda Todd, someone posted an anonymous remark on her memorial website, the remark is much to rude to repeat.

Some woman from Alberta tracked his IP number down once she learned who he was reported the poster to his employer who promptly fired him. I do not agree with the rude post this fellow made nor do I approve of the woman's vigilante behavior.

The whole incident has taken on a domino effect.

The woman from Ab is now crying wolf because she is being verbally attacked for her actions, the guy lost his job and possibly his family. I have no feelings for either. Just saying is all.

May Amanda rest in peace, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd


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## its-all-a-lie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOHXGNx-E7E&feature=channel&list=UL


rusty said:


> A beautiful young woman 15 years of age recently committed suicide here in Canada over cyber-bullying , her name was Amanda Todd, someone posted an anonymous remark on her memorial website, the remark is much to rude to repeat.
> 
> Some woman from Alberta tracked his IP number down once she learned who he was reported the poster to his employer who promptly fired him. I do not agree with the rude post this fellow made nor do I approve of the woman's vigilante behavior.
> 
> The whole incident has taken on a domino effect.
> 
> The woman from Ab is now crying wolf because she is being verbally attacked for her actions, the guy lost his job and possibly his family. I have no feelings for either. Just saying is all.
> 
> May Amanda rest in peace, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd


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## its-all-a-lie

cnbarr said:


> This entire post is a conundrum, I'm not saying that what mic is doing is right or wrong, (I have personally thought about doing this, but I could not live with myself if I did). Take for instance the "infamous list" and "1g per pentium pro", how many people on this forum know there is only 0.3-0.45g per PP, but still sell them on ebay for $25-$30 or more a piece??? Is that in any way different?
> 
> I know I don't have the camaraderie here, like that of many of the more prominent members have, but who is anyone here to judge how man takes care of his family. It seems mic is just trying to pay his bills and take care of his family (I could be wrong), while building a business. How is it different then any other business, product, supply, demand?
> 
> Whether or not anyone agrees with this is truly irreverent, business is business, no matter who feels it is moral or not. Palladium recently made a post (within the last 3-4 months) about acid costs, and Harold commented how the chemical industry is screwing most people on the "true" cost of chemicals. Is that immoral that a company can sell nitric at $3/gal but a retail outfit will sell it for $52/2.2L? Is it right that General Motors can build a car for $3000, but a car dealership sells it $12,000? And lets not even get started on the cost of gas!
> 
> Ethics and Values is a hard lined subject that is truly a matter of perception and personal believe, much like religion, what is right to one is not necessarily right to another. Leave moral judgment to your own deity, they can decide when we die, we are all here to refine and help each other improve on those skills.
> 
> Has mic in anyway taken advantage of anyone on this forum with his ebay listings? I think not, we all know better, right? It is all a matter of perception combined with education, I used to be ignorant enough to pay $56 for 2.2L of nitric, but after a little education and research I'm that much wiser!
> 
> Big business exploits everyone of us every day, and we take it with no qualms, if mic can sleep at night let the man alone to live his life!
> 
> I don't normally interject my opinion on political topics, but this is my $1.05.






Well said.


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## kurt

Harold_V said:


> My opinion?
> 
> A question of conscience. What mic (or leavemealone, or Johnnie, or marianealice) has done is not illegal, not as far as I can see. He clearly disclosed what he's selling.
> 
> The problem is, there's no shortage of misinformed people, who don't understand what they've read----or they're greedy and hope to capitalize on the "ignorance" of the guy melting pins.
> 
> It's a moral call. He can sell his pins the way he's selling them. The question is------should he?
> 
> The best way to come to conclusions when you are in doubt is to reverse the circumstances involved. Become the winner/victim of the situation. When you finally understand what has transpired, will you be pleased with the results? If you wouldn't like buying such material, assuming you do have a conscience, and assuming you really don't want to take advantage of others, they wouldn't be sold as they're being sold.
> 
> Harold



I under lined the part in the above quote from Harold that I would like to comment on.

I have a standard by which I try to conduct my own life on in my day to day life - I try my very best to "not" lie, cheat. steal, decieve or minipulate in my day to day dealing with people - Why? --- because I don't like it when people do such things to me --- so why in the world would I do such things to others if I don't like it done to me.

I like the way John Wayne put it in the movie The Shootest --- "I wont be wronged, I wont be insulted & I wont be layed a hand on - I don't do these thing to other people & I require the same from them

Kurt


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## Ocean

I want to chime in on the "taking advantage of" comments I've seen on many posts on this forum, not specifically this thread.

An item is worth what someone will pay for it, or sell it for.

When MANY of the people here say "ripped off" when discussing sale and purchase prices, I feel that they are out of touch with what capitalism and the free market approach is.

If I can sell some material for $X to one buyer, and $2X to another, why have I ripped anyone off?

DON'T BUY IT IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH! 

It's not ripping someone off, it is called trying to maximize profit. Simple business concept.


Rant over. Thanks for a fabulous forum! :lol:


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## Geo

there is nothing wrong with capitalism. a person should be entitled to as much profit as the market will allow. this is a matter of misleading and misrepresentation. if both party are on equal standing as far as knowledge of the commodity, then the profit will be low because both parties know the worth beforehand. when dealing with the uninformed, the seller has the upper hand, thats why people can make more money selling on Ebay than the forum.would you sell on Ebay an item of unknown value to the common man using word play to gain the advantage, or would you sell on the forum where most people have a better understanding of an items worth with a clear conscience that if they do better than normal,then it was a good deal for them. its like stacking the deck in a poker game, the conclusion is a foregone certainty that you will come out ahead and some poor person is loosing on the deal.im not a hypocrite,i have never sold one thing on Ebay.i have an account and have 100% positive feedback because i pay when i buy and my money is good. i dont sell on Ebay because the only thing i deal with is related to what we do here. i have thousands of pounds of material and before i sell 1 ounce of it on Ebay, ill sell it all to someone on the forum that knows what its worth.


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## darshevo

In Mic's defense it is possible people are buying these drops for something other than recovery. As a refining forum its possible to lose sight of other uses for the material. Checking the purchase history of a couple of his buyers shows they are buying up a lot of this material at these super high prices. That's not a hobby you are going to persue for months before realizing you are losing your shorts. Its possible its getting made into jewelry or some other item with an intrinsic value (one of his buyers has some jewelry making oriented purchases as well as the drops)


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## Calg5

Consider the reverse. I have on several occasions purchased items on e-bay that I knew were underpriced and made a profit relisting. Is that immoral? Should I have advised the seller of the situation. What about people gathering computers for free? I recall several years ago someone made a huge profit selling pet rocks.


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## goldenchild

darshevo said:


> In Mic's defense it is possible people are buying these drops for something other than recovery. As a refining forum its possible to lose sight of other uses for the material. Checking the purchase history of a couple of his buyers shows they are buying up a lot of this material at these super high prices. That's not a hobby you are going to persue for months before realizing you are losing your shorts. Its possible its getting made into jewelry or some other item with an intrinsic value (one of his buyers has some jewelry making oriented purchases as well as the drops)



I thought this may be the case also. But then again if you're equipped to use these "gold drops" to create things like jewelry I would have to assume you are also equipped to get your own material and melt it into workable medium. As far as going months before realizing what you have... you'd be surprised. When I first started getting into refining my cousin once asked me if 18k was a real thing :shock: She had a ring that was stamped 18k but wasn’t sure if it was "real" because it was really shiny(double :shock: ) I could see someone buying up this material thinking they are stocking up and investing for upcoming hard times. When it comes to gold some people truly have no clue.


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## AlZabrisky

Three things.
1. This issue is wrong from every honest, moral and ethical standpoint.
2. Having to explain why it is wrong, is even worse.
4.Veiled attempts to justify it as "right" is worst.

On the flip side, this thread is important in the sense that it gives a clear indication of the business ethics and morals of the individual posters. With respect to those that I have conducted business with or may conduct business with in the future, rest assured that the conents of threads like this one will be definitely considered.
If one must go to great lengths to discuss and justify whether something is ethically or morally correct, believe me, it isnt. And I believe that those who would look for loopholes and ambiguity to justify the morality of such issue, really need to take a step back and consider what member Harold said.

Dont get me started with the " I have some low grade circuit boards, but if I shred them and mix with other shredded high grade boards, i can sell it to some trusting unsuspecting individual".....or the placing of high grade circuit boards on the top of boxes of low grade boards for the next unsuspecting sucker, or I have some regular pentium CPUs that I need to crush before I sell them ,or I have some pins to sell but I better melt them into a shiny bar and call them military grade..........I have seen many.
Dr Z


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## goldenchild

AlZabrisky,

With all due respect, how can you possibly declare what is moral and immoral? In Harold's post he prefaces his reply with the fact that it's his opinion. And at the most fundamental level morals are just that. Opinions. Opinions that differ from individual to individual. As Harold said "It's a moral call". But who is the authority on morals? The individual.

Obviously the question at hand is whether it’s moral to facilitate the purchase of something for $100 that’s really only worth $10. Some would say no. But now look at it this way. Some may say that it's morally wrong to NOT force someone to learn the hard way. If you simply tell them something is not worth the asking price they won't go do the research on why it's not. They will later on go and buy something for $1000 that is only worth $100 all because they didn't learn their lesson on the $10 object. Do you see why it's quite useless to debate about the morality on subjects of this nature? Or any subject for that matter.


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## AlZabrisky

Merriam Webster
*Fleecing:*
the exaction of a grossly excessive charge for goods or services.

Synonyms: fleecing, gouging, highway robbery, overcharging
Related Words: cheating, chiseling (or chiselling), defrauding, skinning, swindling.

Wordweb:
*Fleecing:* Rip off; ask an unreasonable price.
Synonyms: Hooking, overcharging, robbing ...
Types of: Extorting, squeezing, gouging.

Thanks for the respected response. 
Questions for ourselves.
Would I sell such a product at the knowingly inflated asking price as listed on ebay?.
Would I buy such an item with the vague unsubstantiated description at the inflated asking price?.
My posts are not limited to the matter under discussion, but all similar situations on or off ebay.

Dr Z.


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## goldsilverpro

I have to side with Mic on this. As long as he makes no false statements, what has he done wrong? They are what they are described as, melted and cast gold plated pins. He's starting to produce some good-looking bars and making those takes some labor, thought, and effort. At least they have some gold in them, unlike those overpriced copper ingots made from bus bar or so-called "gold flake." The dollar value of anything is only what you can sell it for. 

Were it me, though, I would get rid of the final part of the ad. I wouldn't even mention refining or assaying, since an assay would probably cost more than the gold value and refining it would probably be unprofitable. I would treat it as simply an object (a bar) made from melted pins.

As far as judging him is concerned, here's an old saying that seems appropriate. 

"Why do you keep watching the tiny speck in your brother's eye while you pay no attention to the log that is in yours?"


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## NobleMetalWorks

I think it all comes down to how you want to live your life. 

For me, I prefer to try and live my life as a just man. If anyone has read Plato, and his idea of the "forms" and of a "just" man you will understand what I am saying. Morality, Justice, etc are all ideals that exist outside human experience in their perfect form. Plato called these forms, but we can call them ideas, it makes it easier to understand. So these ideas exist outside our experience in their perfect form. Because we are not perfect, we can only ever strive to attain these ideals. 

However, I would beg to differ on the point that it's all opinion. Because these things are ideals that exist outside of our own experience, they are not up for debate. They exist as concepts that should be pursued according to Plato. What makes a Man a just man is not how just his actions may or may not be, but his desire to strive towards that perfect form of justice. But the perfect idea of being just, or being moral, exists regardless if we believe in it or not, follow it or not. We can only discover what it means to be just, but we cannot argue what is just or not.

Our problem as human beings is that we are constantly trying to justify (make just) actions that we know are not justifiable. We make excuses for doing things we know are not right. We will even spend time justifying other peoples actions because we identify with what they have done, and would do it ourselves.

I really don't see this as a debate about what is right or wrong, We all know what is right or wrong. I see this more as a discussion about justifying or not justifying bad behavior.

Scott


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## goldenchild

SBrown said:


> ...We all know what is right or wrong.



Scott,

What do you mean by this?


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## glondor

Ohhhhh my. I guess my comment was very judgemental and for that I apologise. It was a kneejerk reaction to something that really caught me by surprise. 

Mic is what i consider a long distance phone friend. We have spent many hours talking about life, cars, gold, news, money, business, family and so on. Many hours. Mic is a good guy with a good heart who has had more than his fair share of hard knocks. He helped me out in the early stages of refining with advice and knowledge. He even did testing for me early on so I would know what was worthwhile and what to pass on. I do miss his contribution to the forum.

I was very much an avid fan of his posts here, always looking to see what "Mic had to say today". If you want some insight into this, look up some of his old posts from last year. To me he was as much a champion to the underdog as Harold is the champion to proper decorum and accuracy.

To be blunt, Mic would tackle you like a bulldog if he thought you were unjust or unfair. He would also jump right in with an explanation and apology if he was wrong. You could always count on Mic to bring the fireworks. 

I have read and re read the opinions posted on this thread and I see that people whom I respect and admire have come down on both sides of the issue. Surprised? A little I guess. Better informed via new opinion? Definitely. If asked " could I do that"? i would have to say no...... not right now. Under different circumstances I could not rule it out in the future. They would have to be pretty difficult circumstances tho. I guess it could happen.

So Johnny, I do owe you an apology and I sincerely offer one. I hope all is well with you and the family, and that things look up for you. I should not have labeled it as fraud and for that I am sorry. 

The bar does look pretty nice. mike


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## NobleMetalWorks

goldenchild said:


> SBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...We all know what is right or wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> What do you mean by this?
Click to expand...


It means, regardless of how we might try to justify what it is we want to do, we know what is right to do. Anytime you take advantage of another person, we know, as thinking, mature adults, strictly speaking, it is wrong. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean it cannot be justified, but I think we all understand that it is, strictly speaking, fundamentally wrong.

If you were to say that you have a family, and you were going to loose your home, or you had no food to eat, and you fleeced someone knowingly so that you could make money, a person might then claim it wasn't wrong because they were supporting their family. Strictly speaking however, it is wrong, period. There is no gray area. The question revolves around the conditions that caused you to do something fundamentally wrong. It is wrong to kill someone, we all know this. But if someone breaks into my house with a gun I am going to shoot them dead. It's the conditions that make it a morality issue. Under certain conditions you can be justified doing the wrong thing.

Now then, the question that cannot be answered in this thread because the person who it is about is no longer here, is what conditions existed to justify his actions. I might not think he was justified but the next person might believe he was. That is what morality is.

Morally this post is ambiguous at best, however, so far as right or wrong is concerned, strictly speaking, it's wrong to fleece people. With that being said, he very well could have done the right thing considering his situation, whatever that might have been.

I know it seems like i am going around and around in circles, I am finding explaining what I am trying to explain difficult. I am not saying what Mic or anyone else has done is morally wrong, I am saying, strictly speaking, that it is wrong.

Scott

EDITED: I'm a real person and not nearly as uptight as I might sound, I'm really not uptight at all, I have done things in my past that were strictly speaking, wrong, because I felt I was justified in doing so.


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## etack

SBrown said:


> EDITED: I'm a real person and not nearly as uptight as I might sound, I'm really not uptight at all, I have done things in my past that were strictly speaking, wrong, because I felt I was justified in doing so.



Like beer kegs  

I think what is missing out of this discussion is whats is the forums stance. I feel that this is wrong and if you do this than than that makes you wrong. Mic could sell pins not melted and be in the right ,but when you melt them say there is gold here and use a yellow light to make the bar more "Golden". This is wrong. This is the same as using the "list" in an ebay auction when you know its misleading and wrong. 

Mic made reference that he got scammed this year and that sucks, but that doesn't make it right. Karrma.

Eric


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## NobleMetalWorks

etack said:


> SBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> EDITED: I'm a real person and not nearly as uptight as I might sound, I'm really not uptight at all, I have done things in my past that were strictly speaking, wrong, because I felt I was justified in doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like beer kegs
> 
> I think what is missing out of this discussion is whats is the forums stance. I feel that this is wrong and if you do this than than that makes you wrong. Mic could sell pins not melted and be in the right ,but when you melt them say there is gold here and use a yellow light to make the bar more "Golden". This is wrong. This is the same as using the "list" in an ebay auction when you know its misleading and wrong.
> 
> Mic made reference that he got scammed this year and that sucks, but that doesn't make it right. Karrma.
> 
> Eric
Click to expand...


Yes, including beer kegs, although I think that was vastly different than what we are talking about here. In any case, I didn't have to justify anything I did, and ended up with two, legally. That's not to say that I didn't need them for what I was doing, and wouldn't have found a way to obtain them if I couldn't have the way I did.

Scott


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## ericrm

your all very funny preaching for the good of human while you could be building house for the poor ,feeding the children or going in street to give awareness about the rising child protitution in country touched by those last very bad weather case.


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## goldsilverpro

This thread is getting out of hand and it is now locked.


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