# Can I use this nozzle for making burner



## saadat68 (Sep 1, 2016)

Hi 
I want to make a 1 kg furnace for melting silver. I can find this nozzle from shop but I think it is small. Isn't it ?
Can I use it in making a burner/torch for my furnace?
If it is small can I make its hole larger with a drill ? Is it safe ? 

Hole diameter: 2.5 mm 
Length of nozzle: 6 cm


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## Shark (Sep 1, 2016)

The orifice size (the hole) in mine was drilled with a 3/64 bit. That is 1.1906 mm or 0.0469 inch. From my recent adventures in building burners I would think that 3mm would be way to big for a furnace that small.


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## saadat68 (Sep 1, 2016)

Shark said:


> The orifice size (the hole) in mine was drilled with a 3/64 bit. That is 1.1906 mm or 0.0469 inch. From my recent adventures in building burners I would think that 3mm would be way to big for a furnace that small.


Thanks
I thought it is small!
*Also diameter is 2.5 mm* not 3 mm

Can i use this nozzle ? is it safe ?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 1, 2016)

saadat68 said:


> Shark said:
> 
> 
> > The orifice size (the hole) in mine was drilled with a 3/64 bit. That is 1.1906 mm or 0.0469 inch. From my recent adventures in building burners I would think that 3mm would be way to big for a furnace that small.
> ...



It depends on what kind of fuel you are using for your furnace. Propane, natural gas, waste oil. More information would be needed to properly answer your question. What pressure your fuel can be delivered at also makes a difference. Propane generally runs at a higher pressure than natural gas unless you have asked for a higher natural gas pressure regulated line installed at your location by the supplier.


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## Shark (Sep 1, 2016)

Based on my personal experience I would not use it. 1mm to 1.2mm would be my stopping point as for the hole size. It may work under other conditions, I just haven't reached that level of experience. Also, knowing what type burner you plan on using will make a lot of difference. What type furnace do want to use it in? Do you plan on using forced air? There are many things that can determine the orifice size in a burner. I recently built several, until I found the one that made me happy. All of them used a 3/64" hole. (1.2mm) Even then I think that might be to big of a hole for most of the home built furnaces I have looked into.


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## saadat68 (Sep 1, 2016)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> saadat68 said:
> 
> 
> > Shark said:
> ...





Shark said:


> Based on my personal experience I would not use it. 1mm to 1.2mm would be my stopping point as for the hole size. It may work under other conditions, I just haven't reached that level of experience. Also, knowing what type burner you plan on using will make a lot of difference. What type furnace do want to use it in? Do you plan on using forced air? There are many things that can determine the orifice size in a burner. I recently built several, until I found the one that made me happy. All of them used a 3/64" hole. (1.2mm) Even then I think that might be to big of a hole for most of the home built furnaces I have looked into.



I want to use natural gas with a air blower :?:
A furnace like this 
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2bTesd75Wic/maxresdefault.jpg


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## Shark (Sep 1, 2016)

> I want to use natural gas with a blower :?:



That is more than my knowledge and ability allows for. :|

I have never used natural gas in my furnace. I can't even get natural gas where I live yet.


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## saadat68 (Sep 1, 2016)

What problems do I have if use this nozzle? Is there any safety issue ?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 1, 2016)

saadat68 said:


> What problems do I have if use this nozzle? Is there any safety issue ?



Natural gas runs at a lower pressure than propane. You would need to supply the BTU's required to reach the temperature you are wanting to operate at to determine the orifice size required.


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## butcher (Sep 2, 2016)

The hole can be brazed closed and re-drilled.
For a coffee can furnace I would just get a Mapp gas torch or a couple of cheap propane torches.

A forced air and natural gas burner (unless extremely small would possibly melt the whole coffee can furnace, of that construction pictured in the link above.

Have you looked into the small soft fire brick furnaces (like Lazer Steve made?), that uses a small torch and a melting dish.

Natural gas and forced air I would use on a larger furnace of better construction but not on a coffee can.

You can make burners of several different sizes or even gang up with several burners, but on something that small I just figure a store bought or second-hand torch is just better (than making the burner).


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## saadat68 (Sep 2, 2016)

butcher said:


> The hole can be brazed closed and re-drilled.
> For a coffee can furnace I would just get a Mapp gas torch or a couple of cheap propane torches.
> 
> A forced air and natural gas burner (unless extremely small would possibly melt the whole coffee can furnace, of that construction pictured in the link above.
> ...



I can not find a good torch in my city from shops and also can not buy it from amazon and ebay! So I have to make it 
My furnace that I want to make is larger than a can


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## justinhcase (Sep 2, 2016)

saadat68 said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > The hole can be brazed closed and re-drilled.
> ...


I could send you a torch if you wanted I just happen to have several more than I need.
Can you get compressed O2?
Trying to do small amount in a furnace is very waste full. probably recoup your investment quite quickly if you have any turnover.
https://www.worldwide-parcelservices.co.uk/parcel-to-iran


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## saadat68 (Sep 2, 2016)

justinhcase said:


> saadat68 said:
> 
> 
> > butcher said:
> ...


Thank you. If you send it for me I will get it 2 month later with high costs 
If I know what orifice size needed I can make it and it easier and cheaper for me

I could find these torches but can not connect with steel pipe. just gas hose and it is a problem 
http://uupload.ir/files/w4p3_5441.jpg


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## justinhcase (Sep 2, 2016)

Shipment's should get to Tehran or Ahar with in four to eight days, once in country the local dispersion may be a little spotty.
But any thing less than 20-30g is a pain to do in the furnace, a good torch will save you hours of sitting around waiting for things to heat up.
I have found a good old cutting torch to be quite indispensable.
Great for there intended use as well as for melting P.M's


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## saadat68 (Sep 2, 2016)

justinhcase said:


> Shipment's should get to Tehran or Ahar with in four to eight days, once in country the local dispersion may be a little spotty.
> But any thing less than 20-30g is a pain to do in the furnace, a good torch will save you hours of sitting around waiting for things to heat up.
> I have found a good old cutting torch to be quite indispensable.
> Great for there intended use as well as for melting P.M's


Thanks I don't forget your kindness but there are many problems like customs
There are some persons in Iran that can buy from amazon and ship to Iran and then my city. It can be last choice 

If somebody say me what orifice needed for a small furnace (1 kg or 2 kg ) and a small blower like hairdryer I can make my own furnace. Tomorrow I will go to shop and change my nozzle to 1 mm diameter


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## justinhcase (Sep 2, 2016)

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/blowburner01.html
As you are using methane instead of propane the size of your hole will not be quite so critical.
You should install a variable valve which will let you tune you burner by eye in any case.
The hole size is critical when you are depending on the Venturi effect to bring air flow into the burner, as you are forcing air into the combustion tube that is not really a concern.


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## saadat68 (Sep 2, 2016)

justinhcase said:


> http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/blowburner01.html
> As you are using methane instead of propane the size of your hole will not be quite so critical.
> You should install a variable valve which will let you tune you burner by eye in any case.
> The hole size is critical when you are depending on the Venturi effect to bring air flow into the burner, as you are forcing air into the combustion tube that is not really a concern.



Understood 
Thanks 
So I use this nozzle and make my burner


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## butcher (Sep 2, 2016)

This small propane burner is simple to make and works well in a small forge, you can also use two burners in a larger forge if needed.
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html


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## saadat68 (Sep 6, 2016)

OK
I found 1 mm nozzle but there is another problem :? 

I don't think this blower can to pass air from 1 mm hole ? So what can I do ?
http://4.imimg.com/data4/TI/YR/MY-2087271/electric-air-blower-250x250.jpg


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## butcher (Sep 7, 2016)

Maybe I just do not understand the problem, why would you want to try to pass air through the fuel orifice?


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## saadat68 (Sep 7, 2016)

butcher said:


> Maybe I just do not understand the problem, why would you want to try to pass air through the fuel orifice?


I cant understand your mean! :shock: 
Air is necessary for a furnace. isn't it? I must pass air with fuel from this nozzle

If you mean is why do you use a nozzle because it is safe than a pipe or ...

http://uupload.ir/files/mghi_6855875.jpg

If I use a propane gas instead of natural gas do I need a blower or oxygen gas ? ( Just propane gas )


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## justinhcase (Sep 7, 2016)

If you are having problems understanding the diagrams provided you may want to recruit some local help.
Every thing you need is there you have misread the instructions.
Air and fuel have separate rout's until they are combined in the combustion aria.


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## saadat68 (Sep 7, 2016)

justinhcase said:


> If you are having problems understanding the diagrams provided you may want to recruit some local help.
> Every thing you need is there you have misread the instructions.
> Air and fuel have separate rout's until they are combined in the combustion aria.


I know. I draw that diagram 
I say a 1 mm nozzle is small that a blower can pass air and fuel from it for combustion 

Can I use an air compressor instead of blower?


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## justinhcase (Sep 7, 2016)

saadat68 said:


> justinhcase said:
> 
> 
> > If you are having problems understanding the diagrams provided you may want to recruit some local help.
> ...


Air should not go through the fuel line.
Look at the plans again,you have been given one set for "Forced Air" and one that draws air into the combustion chamber by the movement of compressed fuel gas.
Make sure you have not mixed the two up.
neither diagram tells you to force air through a 1mm orifice.
But you can use a compressor on a "Forced Air " burner if you control the pressure.


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## saadat68 (Sep 7, 2016)

justinhcase said:


> saadat68 said:
> 
> 
> > justinhcase said:
> ...


OK
I think understood
A Nozzle in a pipe


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## butcher (Sep 7, 2016)

Fuel and air or oxygen then you add heat or a spark and you can have a dangerous situation.

You need to know how the burner operates, some burners use air and can pull in their own air, through a larger (air) port sized for the burner BTU's. The fuel orifice only supplies fuel to the burner (normally under a certain pressure).

Some burners use blowers to supply the air, again fuel orifices only deliver fuel.

Size the burner for the furnace or proper application. The burner size BTU's can limit options of sizes, types or styles, fuel, oxidizer (air, blower forced air, oxygen under pressure...) these can be a factor in sizing. 
Knowing what you need you can choose the proper style burner for the job.
Study the burner you wish to buy or build, understand how it works, how to build it (or just buy one), and under what conditions it operates, and how to use it properly and safely...


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## saadat68 (Sep 7, 2016)

Thanks guys 
I have another problem! :| 

I go to 3 shops for buying a check valve for gas ( for safety ) but they said there is no any Check valve for gas :shock: we have check valve just for water. 

The check valve was like this: 
http://76.my/Malaysia/york-style-spring-bra[email protected]110.jpg


Is there a gas check valve ( just for gas ) and is it different with water check valve ?


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## butcher (Sep 7, 2016)

The check valve in the picture will not work the spring is too heavy.
Some types of torches or burners need an anti-backflow valve, flashback, or a safety check valve.
many types of burners they are not needed.
If you show us details of the furnace and torch, or burner you wish to build maybe we can give you some tips.
If you are just melting some gold and silver, a torch and melting dish may just be all you will ever need.
without understanding what your plans are it is hard to answer questions.


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## 4metals (Sep 7, 2016)

I think you are being overcritical about nozzles, when you use a blower like you have it can be much simpler. 

This is a blower and gas plumbing for a small gas melter, it will melt gold in a #8 crucible no problem. The gas is hooked up to a propane bottle with a regulator and a flashback arrestor and the valve is opened to adjust the gas flow. The ball valve adjusts gas flow and the gate valve throttles back airflow. It will also work with natural gas but the flashback arrestor is different for natural gas. 




This is a propane bottle with a regulator and a gas flashback arrestor.




When you light a burner like this you turn on the gas and have the air throttled all the way back to minimal flow, then you light the gas and cut it back as you slowly increase the air flow. It will go from a flame coming out of the melter to a swirling flame with a bit of a roar. As the furnace warms up, the air is increased until a balance is reached and you can adjust to either a reducing or an oxidizing flame based on the flame color.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Sep 7, 2016)

I love when 4metals plays show and tell. 8)


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## Shark (Sep 7, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> I love when 4metals plays show and tell. 8)



So do I, it becomes a maximum education in minimal wording. Something that is not always easy to do.


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## goldenhaha (Sep 7, 2016)

AlloyAvenue.com is where you need to go. Its a metal casting site. The folks over there should be able to tell you how to make a nozzle.


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## goldenhaha (Sep 7, 2016)

Shark said:


> Topher_osAUrus said:
> 
> 
> > I love when 4metals plays show and tell. 8)
> ...



Really enjoy reading 4metals post.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 8, 2016)

4metals said:


> I think you are being overcritical about nozzles, when you use a blower like you have it can be much simpler.
> 
> This is a blower and gas plumbing for a small gas melter, it will melt gold in a #8 crucible no problem. The gas is hooked up to a propane bottle with a regulator and a flashback arrestor and the valve is opened to adjust the gas flow. The ball valve adjusts gas flow and the gate valve throttles back airflow. It will also work with natural gas but the flashback arrestor is different for natural gas.
> 
> ...



If you can use a ball valve rather than a gate valve in both places it makes it easier to know what you are adjusting your flow rate at for the air flow and the gas (fuel) flow.


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## 4metals (Sep 9, 2016)

I do agree that a gate valve gives no indication as to the degree of open or closed the orifice is, and that may be an issue to some. I also get involved with much larger furnaces and when you get up to the 4" size a gate valve is much cheaper than the ball valves so, being of a simple mind, I always prefer to keep things consistent.

However, once the force of the air kicks in and the flame is in cyclone mode, the roar of the flame is what I use to determine airflow.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 9, 2016)

4metals said:


> I do agree that a gate valve gives no indication as to the degree of open or closed the orifice is, and that may be an issue to some. I also get involved with much larger furnaces and when you get up to the 4" size a gate valve is much cheaper than the ball valves so, being of a simple mind, I always prefer to keep things consistent.
> 
> However, once the force of the air kicks in and the flame is in cyclone mode, the roar of the flame is what I use to determine airflow.



ROFLMAO. I really couldn't keep from cracking up reading that reply. 

With a 4" line yes I can see where you are coming from. With a 4" line you are going to probably want to use a gate valve because you will have better control of the flow. With a 3/4" or 1" it's not going to make that much of a difference as far as I can see.

We use to run some 1M BTU evaporator columns at the plant I was at. The fan that were used were similar to what you would see used at a grain dryer, turbine type. We used gate valves to adjust the gas flow. Those things always were kind of touchy adjusting the gas flow. Never could get the operators to have the patience to throttle them down, they always wanted to push the pressures up on the gas flow to quicken the evaporating time of the zinc chloride and zinc bromide. This in turn would burn out the 60' high fiberglass stacks. Then the column would have to be shut down and taken out of commission and the fiberglass repaired. That would usually take 2-4 days of work, and loss of production.


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## saadat68 (Sep 12, 2016)

I don't make furnace yet.  There are many difficulties for example can not find pipe connections for nozzle.

I can make this furnace easily but I have 2 questions 

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=33462&t=1

1: Can I use a propane flashback arrestor for natural gas ?
2: I don' want use any nozzle and torch. just a flashback and pipe (like picture). Is there any safety issue ? 

*for example in top picture if blower turned off gas (natural gas ) back to pipe and explode. right?  
*

Thanks


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## 4metals (Sep 12, 2016)

A dry flashback arrestor is the same for natural gas or propane but the fittings will vary to hook it up. The ones I have seen for propane have threads for propane tanks while the natural gas arrestors have female threads either English or Metric depending on what is the norm in your region.


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## saadat68 (Sep 13, 2016)

4metals said:


> A dry flashback arrestor is the same for natural gas or propane but the fittings will vary to hook it up. The ones I have seen for propane have threads for propane tanks while the natural gas arrestors have female threads either English or Metric depending on what is the norm in your region.



Thanks
What about second question 

2: I don' want use any nozzle and torch. just a flashback and pipe (like picture). Is there any safety issue ?


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## saadat68 (Sep 14, 2016)

I can find pipe connection for my nozzle 
solve the problem

Thanks all


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## Shark (Sep 14, 2016)

Post some pictures when you done. I for one would like to see more information on building a furnace with natural gas.


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