# need help with info on scrap



## myfalconry76 (Aug 8, 2016)

Was wondering if anyone could lend some information about these boards and their components and what pm may be present? Thank you.
Derek


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## myfalconry76 (Aug 8, 2016)




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## myfalconry76 (Aug 8, 2016)

I'm really interested in the little colored resistors or compasaters or what ever they are and of course the black chips?
Thank Ya thank Ya Thank Ya


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## myfalconry76 (Aug 8, 2016)

Nobody, anybody???


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## myfalconry76 (Aug 8, 2016)

I guess not


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 8, 2016)

myfalconry76 said:


> I'm really interested in the little colored resistors or compasaters or what ever they are and of course the black chips?
> Thank Ya thank Ya Thank Ya




Which colored resistors?

I believe i read that the rainbow colored (not exactly rainbow..) are tantalum capacitors, but i cant really tell from the picture.

Im sure most have markings by them, I.E. r01, r02, c11,c12 
R is resistor, c is capacitor. There are a bunch of different other markings as well for transistors, quartz clocks, pretty much everything.

Its hard to tell what would be "worth" processing to you, but, i know i would certainly save all of the DIP packages, and all of the rainbow caps.

Ill see if i can find the website I was reading about all of the markings.

Hope this helps


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## myfalconry76 (Aug 8, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> myfalconry76 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm really interested in the little colored resistors or compasaters or what ever they are and of course the black chips?
> ...


Nothing is marked on the board and I didn't really look to see if they were marked on the package. I will check though! Thank you for the reply. I do know that all the boards say they are made in 1981. Would there be a difference in these compacitors in design vrs the mlcc?


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## anachronism (Aug 9, 2016)

The boards are a bit of a turkey shoot with regards to what will be there. The information below is based upon the materials I have found in similar boards but isn't guaranteed as the pictures are grainy and boards are all different by design:

The "legged" chips are most likely to contain Gold and Silver. Palladium is possible as is Platinum in some few cases. You appear to have some Tantalum caps but again the pic is grainy so I cannot be sure. Some of the tracings on the boards- the exposed ones with no solder mask may either be lead/tin/silver or in some rarer cases they actually contain Platinum. The Platinum bearing traces are a dull darker gray. 

The majority of the tubular components are exactly as they seem i.e. Resistors, but scattered amongst them are some pm bearing components such as the silver looking high hats.

As I said, a bit of a lottery, however I hope this helps.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 9, 2016)

myfalconry76 said:


> Nothing is marked on the board and I didn't really look to see if they were marked on the package. I will check though! Thank you for the reply. I do know that all the boards say they are made in 1981. Would there be a difference in these compacitors in design vrs the mlcc?



Now THAT is the million dollar question isn't it? :lol: 

Honestly, I have not the faintest idea. There may be sites that have their datasheets available still, as some older components still have many uses for people that rebuild old electronics, and sometimes the composition of the resistors or caps is needed to be known. So some old datasheets can be/are floating around the interwebs still. 

But, sometimes (most always) testing the material yourself is in your best interest, that way the information can come straight from the horses mouth, and the next time you come across the boards for free, purchase, or toll, you will have insight that may not be well known.


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## Shark (Aug 10, 2016)

anachronism said:


> *The Platinum bearing traces are a dull darker gray*.......
> 
> As I said, a bit of a lottery, however I hope this helps.



That is a bit worth keeping in mind.


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## g_axelsson (Aug 10, 2016)

anachronism said:


> Some of the tracings on the boards- the exposed ones with no solder mask may either be lead/tin/silver or in some rarer cases they actually contain Platinum. The Platinum bearing traces are a dull darker gray.


Have you ever seen platinum plated traces on a regular board? Where have you found palladium traces?

Göran


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 10, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> Have you ever seen platinum plated traces on a regular board? Where have you found palladium traces?
> 
> Göran



I can't speak for "traces", but, it seems those old hammond organs have Pd wire's and contact points unlike nothing else i have read about to date.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=164&p=7547&hilit=hammond+organ#p7547

I almost picked one up the other day for free, but I didnt want to get there and realise that it wouldnt fit in my suv.
After reading more about them, I think next time ill just tie it on the roof of the honda, or drag it behind the suv.. (kidding... Kind of)


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## anachronism (Aug 10, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the tracings on the boards- the exposed ones with no solder mask may either be lead/tin/silver or in some rarer cases they actually contain Platinum. The Platinum bearing traces are a dull darker gray.
> ...




Yes I've seen traces that contain Platinum both in telecoms and military equipment. Granted it's not a common occurrence but then again some of the boards shown on this thread are not common regular boards.


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## anachronism (Aug 11, 2016)

Here you go Goran. This board contains traces of Pt in the tracks.


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## g_axelsson (Aug 11, 2016)

I would have taken it for an ordinary old card without any values on the card. How much platinum is it? Does it produce foils if you dissolve the copper? Did you use XRF to detect it or how did you test it?

When you talked about platinum on traces I thought it was as thick film traces on alumina substrates. In this application I can't see what it would offer in function to justify plating the traces.
Platinum compounds are sometimes used as an accelerator for curing plastic or maybe treating the surface of the board to get the copper conductor to adhere better.

According to the date code of the IC:s, that board is from around 1971 and it is populated with military grade temperature scale IS:s. Not a very common board.  

Göran


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 11, 2016)

After seeing that board with Pt traces, it made me wonder about this board I have. It had some t05's on it, which have been removed. But, yeah... Interesting.


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## Grelko (Aug 11, 2016)

This makes me wonder about some of the older boards I have. The lighting is bad, but the solder looks the same dull darker grey as in anachronism's post. 

I probably have around 80 lbs of these and Wesco boards (no components), some of them have the green mask and "had" gold fingers.


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## teclu (Aug 12, 2016)

anachronism said:


> Here you go Goran. This board contains traces of Pt in the tracks.




Pt traces, of course, and the connector contacts/pins are Pt alloy(or maybe, even platinum .999  )

teclu


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## g_axelsson (Aug 12, 2016)

I suspect that the traces are covered by solder contaminated with platinum after soldering components with platinum plated pins.

Göran


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## anachronism (Aug 12, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> I suspect that the traces are covered by solder contaminated with platinum after soldering components with platinum plated pins.
> 
> Göran



Goran I'm going to take your lead on this one and look further. My results were based upon xrf readings and solution tests BUT the observation you made has validity and needs looking into deeper. This is going to be fun and take a while. Bear with me ok?


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## g_axelsson (Aug 13, 2016)

Sure! No worries mate, I might be wrong in the end but I don't think so.

Either I'm right or I will learn something new. In both cases I'm winning! :mrgreen: 

Göran


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## nickvc (Aug 13, 2016)

Goran with military materials cost is usually of second consideration, they have to work and in various environments so perhaps the Pt was added to strengthen the alloy or thinly plated to protect them, I have seen obscene amounts of gold on military scrap, the highest I remember was 90 grams a kilo but I'm sure we had one batch higher than that, specific applications no doubt and I have no idea what it was for.


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## anachronism (Aug 13, 2016)

As Nick says, and I am sure Goran is aware too, you can pretty much tear up the rule book on "what pm goes where" when you're discussing military, aerospace, and enterprise telecoms equipment. I can remember reading posts on here where people have said that they have never seen gold plate on Aluminium and cannot see the use of it but that's heavily used in telecoms as an example. 

Cost isn't an issue. Reliability is. With some telecoms boards costing in excess of £30,000 each the few extra £ of plating thickness, or the replacement of an adequate base metal with a perfect precious metal is the norm.


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## g_axelsson (Aug 14, 2016)

Anachronism sent me an XRF readout showing Pt but the major metals were tin and lead with minor copper. Since he hasn't posted it here I won't mention more details.

After an hour of researching I had only found one mentioning of platinum on circuit boards and in that case it was sputtered on, not plated.

So far I would stake my reputation as an electronic circuit designer that there is no purpose to plate platinum on tinned conductors and it is virtually impossible to remove any platinum between conductors if it was sputtered after the circuit board were etched.
Just think of it, removing a metal that normally takes boiling AR to dissolve, plated on copper conductors. If they have a problem with copper chloride etching under the resist then boiling AR would eat copper as candy floss.

There is a small probability that the board was plated by an electroless immersion bath, not that I have ever heard about one. And then afterwards tin coated (HASL = Hot Air Solder Leveling), then platinum would be dissolved by the solder. Another possibility is that it is a special solder developed to combat tin whiskers that could develop. But 60/40 tin solders seldom have that problem.
Any way, that is not platinum traces, it is platinum containing solder plated traces. Just as some wave soldered boards can have up to 0.5% gold contamination in the solder.

Göran


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## Johnny5 (Feb 12, 2018)

I would imagine these are Pt as well. I have a couple of totes of them, but I never got around to testing them.There's a lot of Ag and Pd on them as well.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 13, 2018)

Tin plate... or more probably solder plated. It's called HASL for Hot Air Solder Leveling.

Göran


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## g_axelsson (Feb 13, 2018)

Easy test, heat the surface with a hot air gun, if the surface melts even the slightest before the board is glowing red hot then it was just solder. Use a piece of paper towel to push at the surface to break the oxide layer and to see if it has melted.

Lead-tin solder melts at 180 - 190 °C (360 - 370 °F), copper around 1000 °C and platinum way higher.

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 14, 2018)

Johnny5,

You're seeing things you wish were there but really aren't there. How were you going to test this stuff for platinum, anyhow? Some people think any white metal they see on electronic materials is platinum or one of the other platinum group metals. The fact is that the only common metallic elements that aren't white or gray are copper and gold and their alloys, like brass. There are many 100s of different white or gray metal elements and alloys. Platinum group metals are all rare and expensive and they're only used on very specific, special, rare applications. No manufacturer in the world is dumb enough to use them where some cheaper metal would work just as well. They're never used on large plane areas like the board covered with tin in one of your photos - never.

Zero platinum on those boards. Some of the only platinum I've seen on a board was paliney alloy wire wipers on very rare types of rotary switches. I also remember IBM boards, from the 70s, that had a bunch of aluminum lidded hybrid circuits with some platinum traces on them. That's about all I can remember that had platinum on them. These are the same boards with a row of spring contacts that had tiny PM contact points on them. They've been discussed a few times on the forum.

I see no palladium. About the only palladium you'll ever see on a board is on some of the tiny chip capacitors. 

In the late 60s, early 70s, Zerox plated circuit board fingers with rhodium. Other than that, I can't recall ever seen platinum group plating on a circuit board and I've been doing this stuff for 50 years. Thinking back, though, I did see white gold/palladium alloy plating on reed switches but I only saw that one time.

Except for the tiny amount of Pd on chip capacitors and the occasional hybrid circuit, PGMs on electronics are as rare as hen's teeth.


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## Johnny5 (Feb 14, 2018)

goldsilverpro said:


> Johnny5,
> 
> You're seeing things you wish were there but really aren't there. How were you going to test this stuff for platinum, anyhow? Some people think any white metal they see on electronic materials is platinum or one of the other platinum group metals. The fact is that the only common metallic elements that aren't white or gray are copper and gold and their alloys, like brass. There are many 100s of different white or gray metal elements and alloys. Platinum group metals are all rare and expensive and they're only used on very specific, special, rare applications. No manufacturer in the world is dumb enough to use them where some cheaper metal would work just as well. They're never used on large plane areas like the board covered with tin in one of your photos - never.
> Zero platinum on those boards. Some of the only platinum I've seen on a board was paliney alloy wire wipers on very rare types of rotary switches. I also remember IBM boards, from the 70s, that had a bunch of aluminum lidded hybrid circuits with some platinum traces on them. That's about all I can remember that had platinum on them. These are the same boards with a row of spring contacts that had tiny PM contact points on them. They've been discussed a few times on the forum.
> ...




Thank you for the advice, and thank you for the lesson. Hot Hcl would dissolve a tiny piece of that material quickly if it were solder.
As per the Ag and Pd statement, next time I'll be more careful to proofread what I've typed, prior to submitting it. I meant Ag and Ta. It was a simple mistake, one that I will *NOT* make again.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 14, 2018)

Also, silver isn't used for traces, fingers, or large plane areas, because of a couple of reasons. It tarnishes and it tends to migrate on the board material, over time. This would be worse if it were used on fingers. There are lots of photos on the internet showing this silver migration effect. With fingers, you would probably, over time, get electrical shorting of adjacent fingers


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## Johnny5 (Feb 14, 2018)

goldsilverpro said:


> Also, silver isn't used for traces, fingers, or large plane areas, because of a couple of reasons. It tarnishes and it tends to migrate on the board material, over time. This would be worse if it were used on fingers. There are lots of photos on the internet showing this silver migration effect. With fingers, you would probably, over time, get electrical shorting of adjacent fingers



While not (normally) used for traces, there are several companies that have used silver in their solder baths. I have about 30 lbs of components that came from a company that had an accident, and as a result had to dispose of 10's of thousands of components, most of which have silver solder on them. While silver is more electrically conductive than gold, due to it oxidizing, and high migration rate, gold is used (in most cases) instead, on top of the nickle barrier of course to keep it from migrating into the initial plate material (usually copper).


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## g_axelsson (Feb 14, 2018)

Actually, silver is used as a surface treatment of circuit boards and as long as the boards is soldered in time it works quite good. It is a cheaper alternative to ENIG coating but with a shorter storage time.
I have specified a couple of circuit boards where we used silver plate as the coating.

Johnny5, asking about tantalum capacitors in a thread discussing PGM plating of circuit boards... why? There must be hundreds of threads about capacitors that are better suited for that discussion. I would also look inside the rectangular yellow capacitors to see if there is a MLCC inside.

Göran


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## Johnny5 (Feb 14, 2018)

g_axelsson said:


> Johnny5, asking about tantalum capacitors in a thread discussing PGM plating of circuit boards... why?
> 
> Göran




I wasn't. The thread was about the possibility of Pt traces. That's what my first comment (and pictures) were based on.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 14, 2018)

I see it now... but you might have been correct the first time writing Pd. You should really check the yellow rectangular capacitors to see if there is a MLCC inside.

Göran


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## Johnny5 (Feb 14, 2018)

Thank you Goran, That may very well be true, however when I wrote that, I meant to say Ta. I was not paying attention to any other PM's that may have been present. 
I found a buyer for those Ta caps that is not too far from here. I may see if they would be interested in the other stuff.


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