# my first silver refine. positive critiques welcome.



## chaseonbase (Jul 31, 2013)

To first start off I needed an anode. So cementing was the agenda. I read as much as i could understand from this post: http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18598 to get the correct Au to nitric and water ratio. But basically faked it till I made it. I started off with about 30 grams of tarnished sterling from a candelabra. Then added 20 mil of nitric acid then followed up with about 50 mil of h20. Looked kinda low in my 500 mil beaker.(volume wise) Raised the heat to about 200 degrees. Reaction went great checked back in 30 mins nothing left. So added about 10 more grams of sterling Au give our take. Not much of an reaction atleast thats what it looked liked compared to before. So added another 100 mil of water and 15mil of nitric. Reaction kicked off. There was so much weird crusty looking booger things floating around so I filtered off the solution. I wanted to try and make it a clean as possible anode. At this point I wanted to try and cement, as soon as I began the process it appeared to be re dissolving the Au. So I threw in about 5 or 6 more grams of sterling. Waited about 45 mins no more brown gas Ate that up fine no more floating boogers. after all the inaccurate guessing. It was late I didnt care threw in some copper wire the cement was going everywhere(still had heat on at about 125 to 150 ºf) the sterling did not redissolve at this point. Ifiltered off the cement and saved the solution stuck it in a 500mil beaker zip locked and threw it on the porch. After that I filtered off the cement with about 1250 mil of distilled water. I noticed the wire had a very slow reaction at the time , but im almost sure there is more Au in the solution. So could I mix up some rock salt and h20 and throw it off in there? Or no. Any comments welcome to make me more efficent are welcome.
Ps its late im tired and cant think :lol: 

I have included a picture of my first patty cake and my lovely assistant maggie that supervised and barked at cars coming down my road :lol:


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## etack (Jul 31, 2013)

Silver is Ag NOT Au. Au is gold. Your copper nitrate solution mostly has silver left in it and it will kill your dog so be careful where you throw it.



chaseonbase said:


> To first start off I needed an anode. So cementing was the agenda. I read as much as i could understand from this post: http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18598 to get the correct Au to nitric and water ratio. But basically faked it till I made it. I started off with about 30 grams of tarnished sterling from a candelabra. Then added 20 mil of nitric acid then followed up with about 50 mil of h20. Looked kinda low in my 500 mil beaker.(volume wise) Raised the heat to about 200 degrees. Reaction went great checked back in 30 mins nothing left. So added about 10 more grams of sterling Au give our take. Not much of an reaction atleast thats what it looked liked compared to before. So added another 100 mil of water and 15mil of nitric. Reaction kicked off. There was so much weird crusty looking booger things floating around so I filtered off the solution. I wanted to try and make it a clean as possible anode. At this point I wanted to try and cement, as soon as I began the process it appeared to be re dissolving the Au. So I threw in about 5 or 6 more grams of sterling. Waited about 45 mins no more brown gas Ate that up fine no more floating boogers. after all the inaccurate guessing. It was late I didnt care threw in some copper wire the cement was going everywhere(still had heat on at about 125 to 150 ºf) the sterling did not redissolve at this point. Ifiltered off the cement and saved the solution stuck it in a 500mil beaker zip locked and threw it on the porch. After that I filtered off the cement with about 1250 mil of distilled water. I noticed the wire had a very slow reaction at the time , but im almost sure there is more Au in the solution. So could I mix up some rock salt and h20 and throw it off in there? Or no. Any comments welcome to make me more efficent are welcome.
> Ps its late im tired and cant think :lol:
> 
> I have included a picture of my first patty cake and my lovely assistant maggie that supervised and barked at cars coming down my road :lol:


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## niteliteone (Jul 31, 2013)

Don't throw that toxic waste anywhere, Period.

You failed to learn how to properly make this mess, the least you can do is learn how to properly and legally dispose of it.
Never throw acid away anywhere.
You have to remove the poisonous metals dissolved in the acid properly then neutralize the solution to a point close to drinkable before pouring it anywhere.

You still have a lot of reading to do, before someone or animal dies as a result of your lack of knowledge.

Sorry about the bluntness but you have a jar of toxic poison sitting unattended, waiting for a victim to find it.


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## nickvc (Jul 31, 2013)

I hate to ask this but you didn't do this in your house did you?


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 31, 2013)

My "Critique" is not really positive, unless you choose to take it in a positive way, which I hope you do!



chaseonbase said:


> To first start off I needed an anode. So cementing was the agenda. I read as much as i could understand from this post: http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18598 to get the correct Au to nitric and water ratio.But basically faked it till I made it. I started off with about 30 grams of tarnished sterling from a candelabra. Then added 20 mil of nitric acid then followed up with about 50 mil of h20.



First, you should not have added HNO3 to silver, not only is this a bad practice, but you could start producing Nitrogen Dioxide which is highly toxic. You NEVER, never never never add water into acid, you always add acid into water. The correct way this should have been done was to measure your Di water, pour it into your beaker, measure your HNO3, pour it carefully into the same beaker with the water, then carefully pour your acid solution into a beaker that contains your sterling silver making sure you don't splash. The reason for this is that if you drop metal into your beaker, you could break it. As well, you should be doing this in some sort of dish that would contain any spill, drops or in case of thermal shock, keep your solution from going all over the place.

For 30 grams of Ag you should have started with 30 ml of HNO3 70% / H2O at least. Not sure where you got your ratio, but it's wrong. What you don't want to do is use too much nitric, so by using less than what you should to totally dissolve 30 grams will ensure you are not using too much. Making small additions of HNO3 to dissolve whatever remaining silver you have will ensure you do not have free HNO3 left over.



chaseonbase said:


> Looked kinda low in my 500 mil beaker.(volume wise) Raised the heat to about 200 degrees. Reaction went great checked back in 30 mins nothing left.



Keeping in mind that Sterling silver is an alloy of silver containing 92.5% by mass of silver and 7.5% by mass of other metals, usually copper. So if you are dissolving 30 grams of Sterling Silver, 20 ml of HNO3 should not have dissolved everything, it takes more HNO3 to dissolve copper than it does silver. I have to believe that since you state very confidently that there was nothing left, that all the sterling silver dissolved into solution. If this is the case, you didn't properly measure how much HNO3 you added into your solution.



chaseonbase said:


> So added about 10 more grams of sterling Au give our take.



You mean Ag where you say Au, obviously, so I'm not going to harp on you for that, but you should be using the proper names. This is a good practice if you have excess HNO3 in solution, but then you went further.



chaseonbase said:


> Not much of an reaction atleast thats what it looked liked compared to before. So added another 100 mil of water and 15mil of nitric. Reaction kicked off.



Now your solution is way off. Also, what concerns me a bit is that you added 100 ml of water to a warm or hot solution. By doing this you could cause thermal shock in the container (was it a beaker, pyrex, glass, jar, what?) shattering it and spattering acid solution all over the place, not to mention glass shards if you were using glass. You don't want to go adding cold H20 (distilled water) to hot water in a glass container. Specially if you are adding 100 ml of cold H2O to 50 ml of warm/hot H2O.



chaseonbase said:


> There was so much weird crusty looking booger things floating around so I filtered off the solution



What did you do with the filters, did this go back into solution? If so, why did you filter it off, and if not what in the world did you do with the filtered material? Did you do this while your solution was hot or warm, into a cool glass container? If so, again, thermal shock. I'm surprised you didn't shatter some glass while doing this.



chaseonbase said:


> I wanted to try and make it a clean as possible anode. At this point I wanted to try and cement, as soon as I began the process it appeared to be re dissolving the Au.



What did you use to cement the Ag? What do you mean by making a clean anode? Are you going to melt your silver into an anode and then electrolytically refine the silver to high purity? If this is your intent, don't, not yet. You need to learn a lot more before you go goofing around attempting to do anything more or you are going to harm yourself, your dog or someone else. You need to learn basic laboratory practices! A good book to read in regards to this is printed by Wiley, by Gary S. Coyne and is titled The Laboratory Companion (A Practical Guide to Materials, Equipment, and Technique). You should also get a better understanding of chemistry, and a better understanding of refining silver before you go any further in your little venture.



chaseonbase said:


> So I threw in about 5 or 6 more grams of sterling. Waited about 45 mins no more brown gas Ate that up fine no more floating boogers.



You have this sea/saw affect going on, you add water/acid, you add silver, you add water/acid you add silver, it should occur to you at some point that this is what is happening, and perhaps there might be a better way to bring your project to a conclusion.



chaseonbase said:


> after all the inaccurate guessing. It was late I didnt care threw in some copper wire the cement was going everywhere(still had heat on at about 125 to 150 ºf) the sterling did not redissolve at this point.



There is nothing accurate about guessing, you were guessing, you were tired, you didn't care, you "threw" in copper wire. In the future, if you are tired, just simply stop what you are doing, put your solution in a safe place well ventilated and get some sleep. Further, you should not be guessing about any of this, you are not playing around with a Better Crocker bake set, this isn't playing tea with the Muppets, this is serious chemistry that produces solutions and gases that can be extremely harmful to your person, or worse.



chaseonbase said:


> Ifiltered off the cement and saved the solution stuck it in a 500mil beaker zip locked and threw it on the porch.



The porch is no place for a glass beaker with a acid solution that consists of at least AgNO3 and Cu(NO3)2. Plus if the solution was warm when you put it on the porch, and the porch was cold, you could again cause thermal shock, specially if it was cement. Never place a warm or hot beaker, regardless what it is in, on cold cement. You should never be putting a beaker on cement period.



chaseonbase said:


> After that I filtered off the cement with about 1250 mil of distilled water.



You mean you washed the cemented silver?



chaseonbase said:


> I noticed the wire had a very slow reaction at the time , but im almost sure there is more Au in the solution.



What do you mean "wire had a very slow reaction"? Do you mean the wire was dissolving into solution?



chaseonbase said:


> So could I mix up some rock salt and h20 and throw it off in there? Or no. Any comments welcome to make me more efficent are welcome.
> Ps its late im tired and cant think :lol:



When you are tired, and cannot think is the worst possible time to be playing with dissolved metals in acid solutions. You shouldn't add any rock salt or water or anything else in your solution. You were cementing your Ag out on Cu, and now you want to change and precipitate AgCl? Do you understand the difference, or what you are actually proposing?



chaseonbase said:


> I have included a picture of my first patty cake and my lovely assistant maggie that supervised and barked at cars coming down my road :lol:



I cannot even begin to imagine why you think any of this is funny.

I get the feeling you are more interested in sounding cute in your post, than you are in actually doing things properly. Your dog is cute, barking at the cars is cute, the idea of your dog supervising is cute, calling your filtered cemented silver "patty cake" is cute, but not one little bit about "cute" has anything to do with seriously recovering and/or refining silver.

You put your life at risk, your dogs life at risk, anyone that came within breathing area of your experiment at risk. And if you did this inside your house, or inside and enclosed area without proper ventilation or a fume hood you have most likely done damage to anything in the immediate area, yourself, your dog and anyone else around. I hope you did not do this inside, I hope you did this outside, and in a well ventilated area.

Scott

Edited:

Besides all the other safety gear you should be using, I really hope you did not do all of what you have described, while wearing thongs on your feet!

I hope you take what I have said, although seemingly harsh, as my taking time to help you because I honestly want you to succeed and in the right way without putting yourself or anyone else at risk. I say things in a specific way because I take what I do and what I suggest very seriously. I am still learning myself, everyday, and can appreciate the fact you are learning as well.


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## niteliteone (Jul 31, 2013)

Chaseonbase,
Don't feel bad, for what we have posted above is for the good and you will realize this after a few successful refines under your belt.
But please for your safety, talk with us here "Before" you go any further.
We are sometimes a little ruff on the new members, but it IS for your own good. Feel free to write down (post) what you plan to do and ask for forum input on what you have told us you want to do. This will be a lot safer than posting what you have already done.
We are wanting to see you succeed in learning this fun talent, rather than read about you in the news.

I see promise in your learning what we do here, so don't give up.


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## chaseonbase (Jul 31, 2013)

Naw guys im not taking it to heart. If im the drunk idiot at a concert waving a loaded gun take me down. I need to start typing my posts on a pc instead of a tablet, I was worried I would of been too vague. To start off I feel I have the correct ppe. I have a hycar apron, nitrile gloves to elbow and a visor respirator. My setup is outside on a gravel porch with a fold out plastic type table. On the dog part yes I suppose I was being cute her fence is about 30 to 40 feet away from my porch. I just added that part cause she kept looking at as if I was some space invader. The outside temperature here has been in the 90s all week and I did wait for liguids to reach a suitable temperature to be handled to the touch. Anything I have stated as dumped has currently been diluted with distilled water and stored in erlenmeyer flasks with stoppers. Along with the main concentrated solution that is sealed in a beaker 1 gallon zip lock. (I ran out of erlenmeyers) outside under my porch in an old tender box I used to use when I was into class B fireworks. I need to go to work at the moment. I will continue this post when I return this afternoon. I appreciate the input by all means. Im just glad I cant see the look on ya'lls faces when you were typing. Im just taking it with a grain of salt.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 31, 2013)

Just don't feel too safe with those nitrile gloves, when using nitric 70%+ (that is no criticism)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHNkil-zOaI


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## chaseonbase (Jul 31, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> Just don't feel too safe with those nitrile gloves, when using nitric 70%+ (that is no criticism)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHNkil-zOaI




if nitrile is nitrile. Then I suppose that's not a good idea. Web site I ordered from said chemical resistant. The ones I bought are at the bottom of the link I provided. I'm not using the ones that come in a box the real thin type.

http://www.esafetysupplies.com/Chemical-Resistant-Nitrile-Gloves/


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 31, 2013)

chaseonbase said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > Just don't feel too safe with those nitrile gloves, when using nitric 70%+ (that is no criticism)
> ...



Different types of gloves for different types of chemicals.

Here are some helpful tables for figuring out what gloves would be best for what chemicals.

http://www.northsafety.com/ClientFo...Site/E8D15F2E-1F59-454F-B8F0-147FA2B9D81D.pdf

http://www.ansellpro.com/download/Ansell_8thEditionChemicalResistanceGuide.pdf

Scott


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## solar_plasma (Jul 31, 2013)

I am overwhelmed again and again in the light of the forum's members professionality. Some of you guys should really consider to join your local hazmat teams, you would be valuable leaders. 

I couldn't find nitric in your first chart and the second doesn't want to open. Is there any glove at all, that has a chemical resistance against nitric 70%+ over 10 minutes? If nobody can tell, I will take the next chance to look it up, when I am on duty.

Therefore it is my understanding to avoid contamination. It's more a safety against an accidental spill and should be decontaminated immediately.


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## MysticColby (Jul 31, 2013)

that youtube video uses 100% nitric. 70% probably can't make nitrile catch fire, but I'm sure it will still violently react, and go through the glove in minutes or less. If you get concentrated nitric on anything you're wearing, remove that item asap.

http://www.ansellpro.com/download/Ansell_7thEditionChemicalResistanceGuide.pdf
for 70%, "laminate film" and "unsupported neoprene" look good (takes >480 minutes to go through)
for fuming (is this 99+%?), only "laminate film" looks good

all of these glove compatibility charts are not going to be all-inclusive. They are typically an individual company testing their own products.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks for the info!!!

Amazing and scaring, nothing in this chart resists red fuming nitric. I hope, I will never have anything to do with it!


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## MysticColby (Jul 31, 2013)

yeah, no process I've seen mentioned on this site requires fuming nitric. 70% is usually too concentrated and needs to be diluted to 30-35%, but 68-70% is typically the cheapest and easiest to get. Stay away from fuming if you can. Also, the more concentrated an acid is, the more important it is to "add acid to water just like you otter", due to the exothermic reaction of acid and water (if there is a large volume of water to soak up that heat, it's less likely to instantly boil and erupt all over you)


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## chaseonbase (Jul 31, 2013)

Just got back from Lowes got PVC, some heavy chemical resistant spent 20 mins really thinking about those said "contains latex" so idk If that is a latex nitrile blend or what. Also got a set of neoprene. I'm probably keeping the neoprene they seem real comfortable nice cushy feel and seem to give me some extra dexterity.


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## JHS (Jul 31, 2013)

Hi,
here is a little safety tip,that i always have set up right next to where i work with chemicals.
Fill a 5 gallon bucket with 4 gallons of water.
if you have a glove fail,dip your good glove in the water then pull the bad one off.
that will avoid any more of your hand being exposed than has already been burned.

everyone should wear eye protection and have a eye wash bottle where they can get it even if you can not see.
the sooner you rinse them the better off you will be.
if you process outside set up a garden hose where you can grab it.
i hope no one ever has to put any of this to use.
be safe
john


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## chaseonbase (Jul 31, 2013)

JHS said:


> Hi,
> here is a little safety tip,that i always have set up right next to where i work with chemicals.
> Fill a 5 gallon bucket with 4 gallons of water.
> if you have a glove fail,dip your good glove in the water then pull the bad one off.
> ...



Im familiar with the eyewash. I was very lucky and I mean very. I used to work for a car rebuilder. This guy had tons of tools but no eye wash stations what so ever. I was in the paint room mixing up some paint and the guy I worked with was washing his spray gun out after he got done and put the lid back on with the laquer and started shaking it vigorously. The shaking built up pressure and when he removed his hand from the lid lacquer flew out all on to my face and my right eye got the brunt of the hit melting my contact lense to my eye. I was running around the shop like a screaming banshee. First place I went for was the water fountain but that gave no relief. The only thing that saved my eye was the fact there was a Volunteer Fire fighter there buying a car for his son. He decided on that particular day to take his first aid gear home to resupply it. He had a rinse bottle and it never felt so good. So yes I take you guys very serious on what you say and will not be so haphazard from now on.


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## solar_plasma (Aug 1, 2013)

> I was running around the shop like a screaming banshee.



It is amazing, how strong the wink reflex shuts the eye, very hard to open the eye in order to rinse it. I learned that, when I confused the two bottles of cleaning fluids for my lenses and put a lense, which was soaked in 3% H2O2, into my eye. That was no fun. I needed some rough force to open the eye with my fingers to get that lense out again and then rinsed the eye in the shower. The doc gave me antibiotica and cortison and everything got okay again.

Funny thing is, those things oftenly happen, when you feel safe, not when you consciously are working with chemicals.


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## Geo (Aug 1, 2013)

ive handled all the chemicals i use with the yellow gloves you can buy from the dollar general store. sometimes i can get them two for a dollar. they have been used to squeeze silver nitrate from filters as well as auric chloride. ive used them to handle items from the stripping cell so they stand up well to sulfuric acid. im not recommending them, im just saying that im comfortable using them for things like that. ive never had one fail or come apart.

if you notice in the video, they pour the acid into the glove. the reaction starts on the inside and it takes the thermal reaction to get through the outside of the glove. the outside may have a resistant polymer coating. i doubt they could have caused that kind of reaction by just pouring the acid on the outside of the glove. if you get concentrated nitric poured down the inside of the glove with it on your hand, you should not be anywhere near chemicals.


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## JHS (Aug 1, 2013)

Geo said:


> if you get concentrated nitric poured down the inside of the glove with it on your hand, you should not be anywhere near chemicals.



I agree,but accidents happen.beakers break,people slip and drop.
Im just saying a little extra precaution is not unreasonable.
john


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## NobleMetalWorks (Aug 1, 2013)

Geo said:


> ive handled all the chemicals i use with the yellow gloves you can buy from the dollar general store. sometimes i can get them two for a dollar. they have been used to squeeze silver nitrate from filters as well as auric chloride. ive used them to handle items from the stripping cell so they stand up well to sulfuric acid. im not recommending them, im just saying that im comfortable using them for things like that. ive never had one fail or come apart.
> 
> if you notice in the video, they pour the acid into the glove. the reaction starts on the inside and it takes the thermal reaction to get through the outside of the glove. the outside may have a resistant polymer coating. i doubt they could have caused that kind of reaction by just pouring the acid on the outside of the glove. if you get concentrated nitric poured down the inside of the glove with it on your hand, you should not be anywhere near chemicals.



Geo,

I have taken a pair of Nitrile glovers and dropped them in a 500 ml beaker with just a small amount of Nitric Acid in the bottom. I didn't see an immediate reaction, and after a few minutes I thought that the video might be like the ones you see where the people claim that cell phones will pop popcorn. 

Then all the sudden it started to smoke, and then actual flames evolved.

I was using 70% Nitric Acid, not fuming. 

I wanted to see for myself, under those conditions Nitrile Gloves will burst into flame with regular Nitric, not Fuming, acid. HOWEVER, there is always a however isn't there. It took a few minutes being exposed to Nitric Acid before it burst into flame. The amount of Nitric Acid that you might get on gloves while working with it, might not be enough. Plus it's exposed to oxygen at the same time which might also affect it.

When I worked with Nicotine, we were warned that one drop of pure nicotine on your bare skin w ill kill you, dead. Yet they put it in a patch you put directly on your skin, and people smoke it. The difference is the conditions. In a cigarette, nicotine is burned so takes on different properties. In a patch, it exists between layers of specially formulated plastic polymers. It's the right conditions that cause Nitrile gloves to ignite in the presence of Nitric Acid. But they do.

Scott


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## solar_plasma (Aug 2, 2013)

It is the proper way to avoid contamination of all hazmat gear, if possible. There are three reasons for this: avoiding the danger of spreading contamination, avoiding the danger of an unknown compound (*1) breaks through (since there simply exists no all-in-one chemical resistance) and to save your equipment (thereby money!).

This is very hard to teach to even experienced hazmats, if they have a practical-technical background or a agricultural background. I think soldiers and all kind of lab workers for an example are getting this quite quicker.

Let me compare this to refining. There is the Hoke/Harold's way, perfectionism in every detail, and there is the silver refiner, Harold once told us about.

Like in refining, also in safety, we should teach the proper way. Of course you are right, Geo, in your _subtone_(edit: I meant"undertone"), that we should not get paranoid. Only the proper way.

(*1) edit: maybe some of you folks think, hey, I have no unknown compound in my lab...wrong, in the moment you by mistake confuse two vessels, you have an "unknown" compound. This proper procedure,I talk about, will also avoid the dangers of many kinds of mistakes, that can happen to humans. Of the same reason, we never use glas ware in the lab, which is used to store food and drinks in it. Those proper procedures protect us against our fallibility.


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## solar_plasma (Aug 2, 2013)

Geo wrote:


> ive handled all the chemicals i use with the yellow gloves you can buy from the dollar general store. sometimes i can get them two for a dollar.



I didn't say cheap gloves won't do it. They will in the most cases. I said, don't feel too safe. Nitric is just an didactical example. And at least after NobleMetalsWorks' valuable experiment nobody who has read this will get the idea to bath his gloved hands in 70% nitric.


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## MysticColby (Aug 2, 2013)

That's why I tell people not to rely on safety equipment. Have it, know it will work if needed, but don't trust your life to a glove not having a microscopic hole or splashed liquid not dripping into your eyes around your goggles. Have backup plans. It's best not to need to rely on your equipment in the first place.


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## vitalclues (Aug 5, 2013)

Where can one get the sterling silver?


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## MysticColby (Aug 6, 2013)

I would get my sterling from ebay. most is over-priced, a lot has filler (such as cement added for weight). Experience helps with approximating expected final weights. always under-bid; I never paid more than 75% of my expected silver value. I only won like 5% of the auctions I bid on, but for the ones I did win I didn't lose money.


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## solar_plasma (Aug 6, 2013)

> 75% of my expected silver value.



...and the expected silver value should be, what you will get for the silver - not the spot price. I am always hunting 25% - max. 50% of spot price. When the silver spot is low, like now, I may bid more, sometimes up to 100% of what I would get at the present time. But this is speculation and I will hold the silver at least till it goes up again.


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## chaseonbase (Aug 7, 2013)

vitalclues said:


> Where can one get the sterling silver?



I really lucked out had a guy bring me a 30 pound box of these old crusty looking electrical contacts of some form. I did a stannous test and about fell out. :shock: Got a positive reaction for silver and palladium. I offered him 60 bucks and he was more than happy to take that. Best find yet! go to garage sales crack of dawn early in POA (gated communities) or town. Ive had better luck in POA areas if there available on saturday mornings. Hope this helps. 
Also buy a precious metals testing kit, there fairly inexpensive and always ask before you test an item and scratch in an inconspicuous place.


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## Harold_V (Aug 7, 2013)

chaseonbase said:


> I really lucked out had a guy bring me a 30 pound box of these old crusty looking electrical contacts of some form. I did a stannous test and about fell out. :shock: Got a positive reaction for silver and palladium.



I am of the opinion that you do NOT understand the use of stannous chloride. 

For starters, it isn't used for testing silver.. It doesn't have that ability.

It also isn't used for testing metals in a solid state. It is used to test for values **dissolved* *in acids. If you applied a drop of stannous chloride to silver contacts, any reading you may have interpreted will be valueless.

Harold


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## its-all-a-lie (Aug 7, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> chaseonbase said:
> 
> 
> > I really lucked out had a guy bring me a 30 pound box of these old crusty looking electrical contacts of some form. I did a stannous test and about fell out. :shock: Got a positive reaction for silver and palladium.
> ...



I have never tried to test metallic silver with stannous but would it not produce silver chloride on the surface? I know it does this when silver is in solution...


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## NobleMetalWorks (Aug 7, 2013)

its-all-a-lie said:


> I have never tried to test metallic silver with stannous but would it not produce silver chloride on the surface? I know it does this when silver is in solution...



When you make Stannous Chloride, you are using all the available HCl in it's reaction with Sn. So if made correctly, Stannous Chloride should not have available HCl to react with metals.

I get the feeling the OP wants to impress, and perhaps might be using something other than Stannous, or just outright misleading us.

Scott


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## NobleMetalWorks (Aug 7, 2013)

chaseonbase said:


> vitalclues said:
> 
> 
> > Where can one get the sterling silver?
> ...



You are scary, very very scary, and I do not mean that as a compliment I mean it exactly as it sounds, you are SCARY!

I cringe when I read posts of people who really believe they understand the dangers and complexities of refining, and it's obvious they do not. I cringe because I know how dangerous these things are, and can be, and how quickly they can get out of hand and cause terrible accidents.

But reading what you post causes me physical discomfort. It's painfully obvious that you want to immediately be accepted as a knowledgeable refiner. You want to give useful advice and be thanked for it. You believe by overstating what you know or are capable of it will somehow endear you to those that are professionals or have refined for long enough to be very knowledgeable in the field. 

The old crusty silver contacts you are talking about may contain cadmium oxide, and if they do, it is the very last type of material you should be playing around with or attempting to melt. If you do attempt to process your electrical contacts without knowing exactly what the composition is, what the alloy consists of, you will be taking a very dangerous gamble with your health and possibly your very life.

To be clear, you did not test the silver contacts with stannous chloride, and even if you did you would not be able to tell any metal or metal composition by doing so. In order to test with stannouse chloride you would have to first dissolve the contacts in acid, and then test properly with stannous chloride. EVEN at that, you would have to be knowledgeable in how to interpret the reaction (color change) and even STILL may not correctly surmise what the metal composition is.

But before you go skipping off to dunk your silver contacts in an acid solution, you should know what the composition is BEFORE, because there could be cadmium oxide present, and if so you don't, you DO NOT, want to be dissolving these in acids unless you possess the proper equipment and lab techniques to do so safely. And even being able to process safely, you need to think about how you are going to dispose of the Cadmium, and in what form would be best to collect the cadmium. Personally, I use a process that produces an insoluble cadmium salt so that it is more safely handled.

Your drive by postings of misleading stories and impossible propositions affects this forum in a negative way. Others that come after you, and read your posts, would very likely get the wrong impression not only about this forum, but about refining. YOU NEED TO STOP. Please stop. This isn't a social media site where people are posting cute and funny antidotal stories in order to accumulate friends, This is a professional forum of refiners helping refiners and those people who are honestly and diligently attempting to learn about this profession.

Please, just stop what you are doing, read C. M. Hoke, "Refining Precious Metal Wastes" and then as Harold suggests, read it again and repeat until you understand it well.

I would also suggest you pick up a copy of a book on lab techniques, I would suggest "The Laboratory Companion, A Practical Guide to Materials, Equipment and Technique" published by Wiley and written by Gary S. Coyne.

http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0471780863

Instead of spending your money on silver electrical contacts, spend it on some books, further your education and understanding so that you can apply your knowledge in a successful way while keeping yourself safe.

Scott


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## Harold_V (Aug 7, 2013)

its-all-a-lie said:


> I have never tried to test metallic silver with stannous but would it not produce silver chloride on the surface? I know it does this when silver is in solution...


No, it would not. It produces silver chloride when silver is in solution, but it does not create silver nitrate, from which silver chloride is created.

Pay close attention to the admonition by Scott. I am quick to ban readers who post misinformation. 

Harold


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## chaseonbase (Aug 7, 2013)

Even when I started this thread. I did my first cementation and typed as fast as I could on my tablet,and you asked specific details to alot of questions. I've written a 14 page letter to you in non vague specific order and also included every ppe.I now feel its a complete waste of time . if I type I added silver, nitric acid and water together. You automatically assume I've added them in that order. As far as the dog thing. I just wanted to add a little humor to the mix. As far as the stannous thing. I stand corrected, I was informed from a different forum member that the acid and solutions combined to test precious metals. All I have done with them is scratch them on a little board and put a little drop from a bottle on them. I have sent the contacts to a friend of mine from high school.That owns North West Arkansas gold and silver and am awaiting his analysis. Due to the fact there maybe something harmful if combined with a chemical. I also do not think I am a master refiner. I also apologize for telling someone to check garage sells. Harold I would really appreciate it and thank you if you would let me stay. I will not ask another question, or type a single thing.


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## galenrog (Aug 7, 2013)

You should ask questions. It seems, however, that you may be either misunderstanding or ignoring some of the answers and advice given. I have been admonished from time to time for using incorrect terms or improper procedures. We are expected, partly because this forum is frequently read through translation programs by many who do not read English well, and partly because improper procedure can maim or kill, to be as precise as possible in both language and procedure.

The publications cited frequently on the forum by Hoke and Ammen are essential to understanding much of what is done by forum members. Reading once or twice and watching videos is insufficient. The experiments cited and suggested must be performed to gain a practical understanding of procedure. 

Because I frequently have small grandchildren visiting I MUST have safety as my paramount goal. This is essential for both procedure and storage. Due to memory issues since a stroke last year, I again MUST take precise and detailed notes for every procedure, and must follow precise and detailed directions without depending on what I think I know. Yes, learning something for the fourteenth time and realizing that I had forgotten step 32 or 67 is very frustrating, but if I am to be successful, I have to follow everything precisely.

There are times I can afford to make attempts at humor, sarcasm, etc, but when discussing procedure or safety, all that should be left at the door. Leaving attempts at cuteness behind when discussing procedure and safety will help others understand what you are trying to do, making both critiques and congratulations far more appreciated.

Read, learn, experiment. When you understand and are proficient at any single procedure, then you can ramp up volume to a comfortable pace. But you do have to learn first. It took me a few dozen attempts to perform a basic smelt on gold ore. I still have problems with some complex ores. I still do not know how to perform a proper assay and rely on others to do that.

Please take the advice given on this forum to heart. If you do so you will be more successful and safe while doing so.


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## Palladium (Aug 7, 2013)

Very well put sir!

Questions are encouraged here. That's what this forum is for. The problems usually occur within the format or context of the question more than it does from the question itself.


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## chaseonbase (Aug 7, 2013)

Thank you galenrog and palladium that was very sincere and polite. You made it come across crystal how serious this stuff really is instead of just bashing me into the ground. I misunderstood the whole concept. I ordered a premade kit with these acids or chemicals in it to test for precious metals "The kit was described as stannous testing solution" I scratch the metals and put a drop. I just feel when I show a procedure I have tried. It comes across to me like no moron you didnt do that right. My dads a chemical engineer and im sorry to hear about your stroke. My dad has alzheizmers even though he has no idea who I am, he still knows so much about his work, and talks about it so well. Ive only messed with the silver portion and still have a while to go. I would like to tell you the ppe im using is a hycar apron, with a pure air hood, it recycles fresh air. A set of neoprene gloves and butyl boots. Ive invested so much money and equipment into this while trying to learn it and I understand someone can get hurt really bad messing with this stuff. This tablet I use I have to peck at letters which can get very exhausting over a conventional keyboard. I spent over 4 hrs the other night typing in notepad the very specific steps I was taking in response to NobleMetalWorks initial post. I just gave up figuring it would of been a lost cause. Im sure he thinks Im just a complete idiot trying to kill everyone. You and palladiums polite comment on how important specific steps needing to be explained due to ones injury makes perfect since now. I have also learned to keep it strict to topic only. Thank you once again. I will definitely take your advice and try to understand more by researching additional materials and stop watching so many videos.


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## its-all-a-lie (Aug 7, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> its-all-a-lie said:
> 
> 
> > I have never tried to test metallic silver with stannous but would it not produce silver chloride on the surface? I know it does this when silver is in solution...
> ...



My intentions were not to post misinformation, i was simply asking if silver chloride would be produced on the surface of metallic silver.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Aug 7, 2013)

The reason I respond so seriously to your posts is that I am very concerned about what you write. I don't think you are an idiot, I don't think anything bad about you personally as I do not know you and can only go by what you have stated, what your write.

When you state you tested with Stannous Chloride, it concerns me because if you have read the material you should have read, before attempting to test any metals with any solutions, you would already know that you cannot test metals directly with stannous chloride but rather only after they have been dissolved into a solution. You would also know the names of the acids you could test metals with directly, on a scratch stone.

When you state you have spent a lot of money on safety equipment, this also concerns me. I know from your statements, that you have not read enough to understand the risks properly, to know what safety equipment to purchase. If you are going on other peoples recommendations, then that is your judgement call. After all, each of us needs to take responsibility for our own safety. But if I might suggest, you should read, learn and understand these processes, acids, solutions, safety concerns before you purchase anything except the books you should be reading. That means you shouldn't be purchasing safety equipment yet, testing solutions, acids, or any other equipment because you literally do not know enough yet to make the correct choices in your purchases. And then if you try to use the wrong equipment with the wrong acids in the wrong way, you could cause yourself and/or others great harm. I don't get the feeling this is something you would intentionally do, so I am attempting to help you avoid doing so by accident.

I think it's great you want to refine precious metals, if you notice I try to help others even with the little knowledge I possess about recovering and refining. I am trying to help you as well. Even though I seem harsh, or that I am picking on you, my intent is to help you. I want to help you succeed, but in order for anyone to help you, you have to not only take responsibility for your own safety, (which it seems you are displaying a very serious attitude towards and pursuing) but also you have to take responsibility for your education. I don't want you to take this as me picking on you, but rather that I realize and notice that you have not yet read enough to know what stannous chloride actually is, or how it's employed in testing solutions for values. I also realize this is one of the very first things you learn. This leads me to believe you have not learned all the important things that would come after. So when I read, and realize this, it throws everything else you post into the realm of deep concern, for you. I am concerned for your safety, for your health, for how you are going about educating yourself and I tend to post exactly what I think without reservation because I believe you should be grown up enough to take what I say as how I intend it, and not emotionally. I am not trying to make you feel bad, I just speak in very plain language.

I am not nearly as good at expressing myself in a nice way as other people on this forum, I do not possess that talent, and that fault is mine. But I want to make this point clear, again, I am posting on your thread, to help you, and not doing so to upset you or make you feel bad. If that is how you have taken what I have said, please understand that is not what I intend.

One more suggestion, when posting different subjects, you might want to start a new thread. It allows people to identify what you are talking about before clicking on the thread, and might generate more interest in your questions.

I want you to succeed, and so long as you show you are making an effort, I will want to help you as I want to help anyone I can in learning about this subject who show they are willing to put forth the effort. I was helped along more than you can imagine by the very same people who are posting on this thread. I am only giving back what has been given to me so freely, and some day soon you will be hopefully doing the same.

Scott


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## butcher (Aug 7, 2013)

Nitric acid can detect copper in silver.
Schwerters solution is a good choice for testing a white metal to see if it contains silver.
Hoke has a book on testing precious metals, I have seen a download for it on the forum, you could find it with a search.

Pawnbroker Bobs was a good read on this subject also.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3624

http://www.lacywest.com/proddex.htm

http://www.lacywest.com/t_goldt.htm#testgoldintro


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## Palladium (Aug 8, 2013)

butcher said:


> Hoke has a book on testing precious metals, I have seen a download for it on the forum, you could find it with a search.



:arrow:


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## Harold_V (Aug 10, 2013)

its-all-a-lie said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > its-all-a-lie said:
> ...


I owe you an apology, for my comment was not directed at you, but towards chaseonbase. I should have made my comment clear, but it's obvious I erred in quoting. Sorry. 

This thread is a classic example of one in which eager people don't do enough listening and reading, and can't wait to say what's on their minds. It creates a lot of unnecessary work for those of us who moderate. To that end, I'm going to get even tougher on those who simply won't reign in and do as they're directed to do---which is to study before making comments, or asking what turn out to be dumb questions. 

I do not expect ANY reader to *think* they know something---I want them to *KNOW* they know something. If they do, comments such as testing metals in the elemental state using stannous chloride wouldn't be discussed, misleading others. If we can get readers to that point, a considerable amount of senseless banter can be eliminated from the board----which will help set the tone that we are not here to hold the hands of those who refuse to cooperate--but more than willing to help those who are.

chaseonbase:

Your comment "It comes across to me like no moron you didnt do that right"

Have you heard the that it's better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt? 

Had you paid attention to the advice that has been handed out regularly, you would have started your readership here by reading the referenced material, so you'd learn the proper procedures instead of posting what is nothing short of nonsense, or misinformation. While it may not be obvious to you, others, who share your mindset, will read what you posted and assume it's proper. Pretty soon we have a number of readers who have a complete lack of understanding. We've worked hard to prevent that, and I, for one, resent anyone who posts what turns out to be stupid advice or comments. Read Hoke's book and learn the ways of refining before posting comments or questions. If that's too much to ask, you won't last long here. 

Harold


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## chaseonbase (Aug 12, 2013)

Yes, sir I understand. Ive been trying to run. When I should of started crawling.


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## Harold_V (Aug 12, 2013)

chaseonbase said:


> Yes, sir I understand. Ive been trying to run. When I should of started crawling.


Exactly. 
What you must understand is there's any number of people here who are willing, and capable, of helping you, but before they can help, you must understand what they tell you. It's no different from a foreign language. Once you gain a basic understanding, the things you're told will make sense and you'll be able to build on what you've learned. Until that time comes, all answers do is lead to more questions----answers to which will not help you, because you lack the basics. They MUST come first, and we'll allow nothing less. 

Key to survival on this board is one's willingness to reign in and be told. Typically, young males have more than too much trouble in that regard (try to remember that I, too, was young once. I know of what I speak). It's a sure recipe for getting banned, as I don't tolerate anyone who keeps the board off balance. 

For those who hope to learn to refine----and remain a reader in good standing---put your egos in neutral and pay strict attention the the things you're told. From this day forward, because the time I spend here comes off time I need elsewhere, I'm going to deal with problematic readers by banning, which I will do at the drop of a hat. Behave, or you're gone. That will save me from pleading for cooperation, when it should come willingly. 

Harold


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## chaseonbase (Aug 13, 2013)

Im about halfway thru hoke now, and im not gonna lie ive got so many questions more and more. These stupid youtube videos ive watched have served me no justice. I just dont want to clog the forum with questions that have already been answered.


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## jimdoc (Aug 13, 2013)

chaseonbase said:


> Im about halfway thru hoke now, and im not gonna lie ive got so many questions more and more. These stupid youtube videos ive watched have served me no justice. I just dont want to clog the forum with questions that have already been answered.




Questions typed in the search box don't clog the forum. And more times than not the search box will lead you to answers to your next question.

Jim


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## jimdoc (Aug 13, 2013)

Also, I have never heard of the search box commenting on a "stupid question" even once.

Jim


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