# Button from e-waste of all kind



## solar_plasma

Finally done, 9,6g, collected in small portions from all kinds of e-scrap, first SMB, next oxalic. 

Is it correct, that the pipe is deep, the surface is smooth, without fern like crystals, but the surface shows crystal like large flat areas - which tells, that is should be at least 999, maybe more?

Please comment!


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## Barren Realms 007

It looks good.


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## Anonymous

Looks great Bjorn.

Do you melt in a crucible? If you do then you could melt it thoroughly into a perfect circular button easily. It's only appearances I know however they look a little crisper in my humble opinion. 8) 8)


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## solar_plasma

Thanks guys. I melted it in a dish and I need still a lot of experience in melting. In fact I guess I helt the flame too long on the button when it already started to cool.


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## glorycloud

Nice one!! Compared to my first melts where I wasn't getting the dish hot enough due to
heat dissipation, your button looks great!


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## jason_recliner

That's a beautiful shiny you have there, Bjorn.
What is your torch and dish setup?


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## MGH

It does look good. I also had odd shaped buttons on several of my first melts. I think it's mostly a matter of timing - allowing the button to cool just enough to be rigid, and then plucking it out of the dish before the flux hardens. You just need more gold to practice with 8)


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## solar_plasma

jason_recliner said:


> That's a beautiful shiny you have there, Bjorn.
> What is your torch and dish setup?




The torch I used today is similar to this one: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00...eiß autogen&qid=1436368026&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

Worked quite fast, less then 5 min.

5cm standard dish, firebricks to 3 sides and I laid some clean glass fiber cloth (the like you use with polyester to repair boats) over it, both for isolation and to prevent contamination.


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## g_axelsson

Nice button, apparently you got what it takes. 8) 

Göran


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## MarcoP

Great job Björn! I feel ready to start my refining adventure, more of this pics i see more my desire grows 

Congrats again!

Marco


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## Anonymous

solar_plasma said:


> Thanks guys. I melted it in a dish and I need still a lot of experience in melting. In fact I guess I helt the flame too long on the button when it already started to cool.



Mind if I give you a tip Bjorn?

Pop it back in the dish and completely melt it. What you'll see is that when it melts COMPLETELY it literally "snaps" into a perfect circle that you can roll around the dish. Your gold is safe at this point and it's not going anywhere so feel free to play with it and get comfortable with molten gold. 

Take the heat off and count to 20 before trying to lift the button out. If it deforms, don't worry- just melt again till the "snap" and add 5 seconds before trying again. It's entirely possible to melt the borax too without melting the gold so have a play and most importantly have fun.

Rinse and repeat- learn to judge how long it takes- you'll take too long sometimes and be too fast others but it doesn't matter- your gold is going nowhere 8) 8) 

Hope that helps.

Jon


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## solar_plasma

Thanks, Jon, I will try.


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## Geo

Gold boils at 5378 degrees F. At that temp, gold will evaporate like water. It's safe as long as you keep it below that.


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## glorycloud

I wonder how hot the magma is that carried the gold to the Earth's surface during volcanic activity? 

Answer: Magma is a complex high-temperature fluid substance. Temperatures of most magmas are in the range 700 °C to 1300 °C
(or 1300 °F to 2400 °F). 

Thank you Mr. Wikipedia. 8)


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## Geo

glorycloud said:


> I wonder how hot the magma is that carried the gold to the Earth's surface during volcanic activity?
> 
> Answer: Magma is a complex high-temperature fluid substance. Temperatures of most magmas are in the range 700 °C to 1300 °C
> (or 1300 °F to 2400 °F).
> 
> Thank you Mr. Wikipedia. 8)



Pressure is also a factor. Under pressure, stuff can stay liquid at lower temps.


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## Anonymous

Geo said:


> Gold boils at 5378 degrees F. At that temp, gold will evaporate like water. It's safe as long as you keep it below that.



Is Bjorn using a Hydrogen/oxygen torch? I couldn't tell from the description.


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## solar_plasma

No :lol: a simple cheap 70€ welder with butane/oxygen - I am pretty sure I will not vaporize a lot of gold.


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## g_axelsson

Geo said:


> Pressure is also a factor. Under pressure, stuff can stay liquid at lower temps.


Generally, higher pressure increases the melting point, not lowering it.

I have personally made 25 °C (77 °F) ice by increasing the pressure.

Most of the gold on Earth is locked in the iron core, probably in the range of 1-5 g/ton, which is a decent gold ore. :shock: 
We know that as iron meteorites usually have gold contents in 1-5g/ton and even more. The iron meteorites comes from cores of protoplanets and the consensus is that it shows what our planets iron core is made up of.

Göran


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## Geo

Cited from fun trivia : 
"Pressure is the force per unit area acting on a substance. This force imparts energy to the substance and does work either by moving the surface of the substance inwards (reducing its volume) or if the force can't overcome the internal repulsion forces between the atoms, by causing the individual molecules to vibrate more. This vibration of molecules is directly related to the temperature of the substance so heat energy has been created.

In an ideal gas at constant temperature the pressure is inversely proportional to the volume so, for example, four times the pressure reduces the volume by a factor of four. This is called Boyle's Law.
If the volume is constant then the pressure is proportional to the absolute temperature (e.g., if the pressure triples so does the absolute temperature). This is often called the Pressure Law"

Magma is an animal all to itself. It is super heated rock that contains organics from the surface. The organics are carried along with the tectonic plate into the upper mantle through a process called subduction. The organics and water and atmospheric gasses are trapped in the crust and wind up becoming magma. The magma is hotter than the crust and it contains all of these light materials which makes the magma lighter than the surrounding rock. Where the magma finds a crack in the crust, it rises and if it reaches the surface, it becomes a volcano. The magma is under extreme pressure and when it is released into the atmosphere, it expands and solidifies. As long as the magma is contained and under pressure, it will remain liquid. If the magma lost the dissolved gasses without erupting, (it happens) the magma hardens. Of coarse this just causes a plug to form and the next eruption could be more powerful.


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## g_axelsson

Magma isn't liquid because the high pressure but because the temperature and the content of the magma. Many gases are dissolved in the magma and it both works as a flux to keep the magma fluid and lowers the melting point. When the pressure is released the gases expands, cooling the magma in the process as well as changing the chemistry.

You may interpret that text as it is the pressure that keeps the magma fluid, but that's just a secondary effect of keeping water and other gases liquid.

The best example of rising pressure will increase the melting point of a substance is our solid core at the center of the earth. Where the pressure is highest in the core the iron starts to crystallize even though the temperature is higher there than further out.

Göran


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## Anonymous

solar_plasma said:


> No :lol: a simple cheap 70€ welder with butane/oxygen - I am pretty sure I will not vaporize a lot of gold.



Yeah me too 8) 8)


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## solar_plasma

MGH said:


> It does look good. I also had odd shaped buttons on several of my first melts. I think it's mostly a matter of timing - allowing the button to cool just enough to be rigid, and then plucking it out of the dish before the flux hardens. You just need more gold to practice with 8)





spaceships said:


> Mind if I give you a tip Bjorn?
> 
> Pop it back in the dish and completely melt it. [...]



I remelted the first button (down left) and I melted a new one (upper right). That you for your tips, mates!! Much more crunchy now. 

With rockwool beneath the melting dish it only took seconds to melt.

Short info about the buttons
1. button: SMB/then oxalic
2. button: triple AR/SMB/Harold's one beaker style

It is really hard to express how proud and grateful I am for what I did learn from you all, this forum and Ms. Hoke. Thank you!


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## glorycloud

Nicely done!! 8)


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## MarcoP

Good on ya! They look fabulous even if I can't seem to see the crystalline structure. That's the kind of beans I'd like to have in my jar!

Marco


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## maynman1751

Those are beautiful buttons Bjorn!! Nice work. 8)


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## kurtak

Very nice Bjorn :!: 8) 

So you said the first one was 9.6 grams - how much are the two of them :?: 

Kurt


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## Anonymous

Hey Bjorn that's far better isn't it, I bet you smiled 8) 

Jon


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## solar_plasma

Thanks, Guys! 

Today I went to a jeweler and goldbuyer, because I believed that he has an XRF, - he said on the phone, that he owns an apparatus to test gold, if it is finegold...

Well...in fact he had something to measure conductivity and he was prepared for an acid test, acid test!! ...I lost all hope to find what I seeked, ofcourse this wasn't what I wanted, I KNOW my gold is far beyond any kind of karat gold and my refining itself is analytical enough to let me know better than +/-10%  

But he took a magnifier, put on a solemn face and looked very long time at the pipes of my buttons...I got new hope, that he could tell me anything I didn't know. Then he said, those fractured lines around the pipe were very unusual, - he said, this is something that must not happen, I should avoid them when I am melting. 

Anything you my friends can comment about this?? I can't judge if he has expert knowledge or if he doesn't know, what he is talking about.


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## FrugalRefiner

He's a jeweler, not a refiner. I'll trust the knowledge of the members of this forum over that of any jeweler or "gold buyer" when it comes to gold, and I spent many years in the jewelry business.

Dave


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## solar_plasma

Thank you, Dave! Your comment makes me feel better again.

@kurtak
I just melted them together now, since I have nobody near me right now, who owns an XRF for precious metals anyway. All in all weight is 21,7g, plus a little 0,5g button of unknown purity settled from the decanted liquids. I guess I make something of it I can wear around my neck  probably just a button with its pipe and a hole for a strip of leather


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## kurtak

solar_plasma said:


> All in all weight is 21,7g,



Nice :!: 

You should have told the jeweler to go to GRF then go to Gallery & search key word "pipe" to learn that your gold responded just as expected of "pure" gold :mrgreen: 

Kurt

Edit to add the BIG grin :!:


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## jason_recliner

solar_plasma said:


> Then he said, those fractured lines around the pipe were very unusual, - he said, this is something that must not happen, I should avoid them when I am melting.


Perhaps he expects you to melt it into snake chain?


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## solar_plasma

Melting has become quite easy. Today I remelted the buttons, because I finally found someone, who seems to have an xrf and is willing to test it for me. Further I tried to use a little nitre this time. I don't know, if this changes much, but I just wanted to have experienced its use.

A long time now, I searched for any information about how to elvaluate a gold button, but I can't find more than following points, which I am even not sure, if I got them right.

too many and too big fern-like structures are a sign of contaminats like Pd
if the surface isn't shiny, there could be basemetals
a deep pipe occures only with very pure gold (what does this mean? 99? 995? 9995?)
the surface structure can be influence by the way of handling the torch and cooling

My question today is the following: Where can someone find more informations about this or can someone only learn it by experience?

Since hopefully I get it tested now, is someone willing to make quick guess on the purity before I get the results?


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## mls26cwru

It look pretty darn good to me.... I wouldn't worry about the pipe too much... you can manipulate the gold while it cools in your crucible such that no pipe will form. I have done this with at least 5, 1Toz. buttons in the past year that all hit 99.99+% on the XRF gun. One of them had a very odd crystalline structure on the top surface (which i thought would mean lower purity). 

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is impossible to tell purity by how the button looks. Although, I am sure from how careful and deliberate you are, you will hit 4 9's!


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## solar_plasma

He tested it to 99.64%. I guess I contaminated it, when I added a 0.1g button from filter residues.

Had a great laugh though when he first told me he didn't believe it is gold at all. Then after testing he still didn't want to believe. Wanted to pay no more than 200 bugs for those 9.9g :-D... Not the best marketing...


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## artart47

Hi my Friend! 
I would say you have four-9's gold there. I'm thinking of how it looks compared to a lot of the gold I've refined and sold. The only evidence I have as to the purity is as follows.
On four or five occasions I took gold to people who checked the surface with the gun and said it was four-nines. I posted that here on our forum and was told that that test doesn't mean very much. Second, is the feed-back from a few of the buyers. Everyone has been satisfied and some later commented that it came back "really pure". And last, on the last washes I did, the gold powder was simmered for an hour or more in HCl, ammonia and distilled water. These, after the final refine, are crystal clear with out any darkening of the liquid. I just assume that if there were any remaining metals or contaminants in the gold I would see it in the wash.
Non of this is proof, like an assay would be, and is kind of hear-say. It's a good indication, though.
Nice looking gold! Hope this helps!
artart47


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## g_axelsson

Nice button Björn!

Did it say what the contamination was?

The last tenths of a percent in an XRF could easily be off and it needs to be well calibrated. An easy way to check the calibration of the XRF is to bring a coin or a small gold bar of known purity to see how big the error is.

Göran


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## solar_plasma

Thank you, my friends!

No, I didn't see what the contaminants have been. Next time, I will have bought a coin before I go there and I will be sure to have perfectly washed double refined, differently precipitated gold by only using analytic grade chemicals in the second refine, only using new vessels - just for the show :mrgreen: 

Imagine his face, if I would give Lou's ultra high purity method a go, and my button would test higher than the Maple Leaf :mrgreen: ...well, no need to impress this gold buyer, it is a good button and I even know I can do it a little better having more patience.

Unbelievable how he insisted that this couldn't be gold. He believed that the pipe was some weird kind of hall mark. He said: See the color, gold does not have this color! Maybe he thought I had bought it on ebay. :lol: Even though I said, that I am a chemistry teacher and had made it myself. This was very unusal and weird in his eyes. When the xrf said 9964, he said: Here you are, this can't be, this would be pure gold, you would only have this, if you had used some fine gold.... :roll:  *need an emoticon saying I am bashing my head onto the desk* :mrgreen:

...and than this offer of 200€ for a button the ESG would pay me more than 300€


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## Anonymous

Bjorn it looks good mate. 

As NickVC would say- 99.64% is pretty darned good and if you sell it you're only going to be be paid on whatever the percentage of gold in the button amounts to. 8) 

In answer to your question I note you said that it has become a lot easier? You're so correct- it simply does and you also can begin to learn when you're melting gold that is less pure by the way it behaves as it melts. 

Jon


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## kurtak

solar_plasma said:


> He tested it to 99.64%. I guess I contaminated it, when I added a 0.1g button from filter residues.
> 
> Had a great laugh though when he first told me he didn't believe it is gold at all. Then after testing he still didn't want to believe. Wanted to pay no more then 200 bugs for those 9.9g :-D... Not the best marketing...



:lol: :lol: :lol: That's funny --- I think I would have said something like - so you have a $30,000 plus piece of equipment you can't trust :lol: 

Log onto the GRF - read this thread - search pipe - search my postings :!: 

Now you know who I am & why I know what I know :mrgreen: 

Is 200 still your best offer :?: 

Have anything you want refined :?: like gold filled :?: lets talk :mrgreen: 

Kurt


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## solar_plasma

:lol: :lol: :lol: well, I said to him, that it wasn't my intention to sell it.

...in fact I would not have sold it, if he had offered me 25% premium on today's spot price :lol: I would buy gold myself at any time for the price a professional gold buyer would pay.

It is nice to have it for bad days or exploding gold prices and until then I think of using it for making some simple jewelry some day. Also I have found recipes for making gold solder.


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## Geo

The bottom photo looks like the full moon. Very nice.


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## kurtak

I just thought of another response that would have been good for a laugh

You should have told him - I might be interested in buying some gold - could I see one of your 1 ozt coins - then ask him to shoot it with his XRF

Then after he did that say --- hmmm - I don't know - you just told me you can't trust that thing - I will give you $600 for it :twisted: 

Kurt


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## rewalston

kurtak said:


> I just thought of another response that would have been good for a laugh
> 
> You should have told him - I might be interested in buying some gold - could I see one of your 1 ozt coins - then ask him to shoot it with his XRF
> 
> Then after he did that say --- hmmm - I don't know - you just told me you can't trust that thing - I will give you $600 for it :twisted:
> 
> Kurt



lol


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## solar_plasma

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## butcher

Nice hunk of gold there.
I have to say I am impressed, not as much by that impressive beautiful gold button, but of your hard work and success on the forum, you came here as a student, studied and worked hard, and have gained the respected status of teacher.
Keep up the good work.


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## solar_plasma

Thank you, Richard!

When I came here the first few times with some youtube knowledge, luckily also I knew some member's websites and I had some basic knowledge not to harm myself, with an ugly black coated maybe 6g kind of button, I believed I already had mastered aqua regia. :lol: The best thing I mastered, was to quickly understand, that I knew nothing. Within one or two month I dropped bit by bit almost everything I believed to know and started learning from the scratch. 

Once I asked myself, if I could teach, what I have learned here on the forum, to other teacher collegues. But thinking back, what had to be learned, I would not be able to put this in a responsible manner into any 80 hours course. And there is so much more to learn for me and so much more I will never learn. 

I know that I am quite at the beginning and actually I do not feel that I already have deserved the status I have gained.  Beeing 3 years on the board someone has to get very careful, what he writes and how he writes, the younger members will probably believe it word for word and the older members will probably not always check it deeply for mistakes.


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## butcher

You are helping to teach others of us here on the forum, a good teacher also continues to learn more himself.

Pretty button you have there Teacher.


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## UncleBenBen

Björn, as one of those younger members, I have taken your words as those of a teacher from the get go. The wisdom shown in your last post should tell why.

I know its quite an honor to receive that label from the caliber of teacher we all know as Butcher.

P.S. I hope it made you tear up a little! I almost did! Congrats, that's a beautiful button too.


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## solar_plasma

This is what I made the last days. There wasn't much time since there is always a lot of work, long meetings and so on at school in january, but in order to relax, I made those two rings to my love and me 8) 

4 and 5 g, 999, only used hammer, anvil, prick punch and mandrel. No heat, so it has nearly the hardness of annealed silver925 (Au999 cold worked HV5=65 / Ag925 annealed HV5=75).


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## kurtak

8) 8) 8) 

Very cool Bjorn :!: 

Kurt


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## MarcoP

Pretty and cool rings, great job! Also great link for jeweler alloys which I already have few sources but the PDFs you posted are complete. In future I'd like to offer my jeweler clients the service where I'd return a requested alloy starting with their own material sent in for refining, so learning alloys it's going to be required.

Marco


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## Anonymous

Wow Bjorn

Simply wow. I like that a lot. 

Jon


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## nickvc

Bjorn be careful wearing those rings, nice job by the way, as fine gold is very soft it wears quickly, take it off when working. 
An Indian jeweller friend of mine added something in tiny amounts that hardened the metal, it was still 996 if I remember but I can't recall what it was he added :shock:


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## FrugalRefiner

Very nice Björn.

Dave


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## jason_recliner

Congratulations on some lovely rings, Björn. They look brilliant.


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## solar_plasma

Thank you, mates! 



MarcoP said:


> Pretty and cool rings, great job! Also great link for jeweler alloys which I already have few sources but the PDFs you posted are complete. In future I'd like to offer my jeweler clients the service where I'd return a requested alloy starting with their own material sent in for refining, so learning alloys it's going to be required.
> 
> Marco



After all I read, I believe it might be worth to consider an induction furnace and inert atmosphere , if you want to make perfect alloys for quality wrought products.


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## Anonymous

A 3D printer for moulds too


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## Geo

I know Yvonne was proud of hers. She was showing it on facebook. Very nice Björn. Well done.


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## solar_plasma

yap, I know no better place for my treasures, nowhere gold is more shining and more sparkling, than adorning a beautiful woman ...second best place: adorning myself


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## Grelko

That's some nice work for being hand made. I knew fine gold was soft, but didn't know it could be "cold worked", I always thought it would crack, those turned out wonderful. :mrgreen:


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