# "poor man AR" or HCL wt sodium hypochlorite on Gold filled ?



## CR2008 (Oct 5, 2009)

I noticed that Sodium Nitrate used to create the "poor man's" AR when mixed with HCL is the same that called "SubZero" on iShore's website... I have read that it is 70% the strength of regular AR solution and no heat is required to work (just a slower reaction then), is it accurate to say that this process can be conducted outdoors safely? How effective is it on solid karat Gold and Gold filled items? What effect does this solution have on stones contained in jewelry? 

Also, how about sodium hypochlorite with HCL mixed with gold filled? Is this effective in attaining AuCL3 if using solid Karat gold or gold filled? 

I am greatly looking forward to starting gold recovery and I am trying to pick a method that will suit me best... the safest method (with high gold yield) is what is most important to me, even if I had to go through extra steps (or if it took longer). I have experience in laboratory procedures, but rather methods that do not require things like fumes hoods.

Thanks.


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## lazersteve (Oct 6, 2009)

Poor man's AR requires heat and some fume control as well. Depending on how heavy handed you are the fumes will be almost nil to the same as regular AR. I'm of the mindset that I have the time and would rather add my ingredients slowly to keep the fumes and nitric levels in check. This saves chemical costs also. Besides, all the red-brown fumes you see coming out of the reaction flask are fumes that will not be used to dissolve gold or base metals.

I don't recommend HCl-Cl directly on karat scrap unless it's extremely thin. Even then you will have problems with passivization from silver chloride build up and HCl-Cl is slower than either variety of AR. Medium heating (60-90C) the reaction is a must with HCl-Cl.

It's always best to remove the base metals before using HCl-Cl or AR for that matter, for purity reasons and to eliminate surprises in the reaction.

As has been stated numerous times on the forum. Before you start altering the basic, learn the basics. Once you know what to expect and how to deal with the hurdles you encounter, scale up and adjust your methods to suit your situation. If you have never processed a batch from start to finish by the book, don't even consider changing the process. 

Steve


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## Clneal2003 (Jul 3, 2014)

lazersteve said:


> Poor man's AR requires heat and some fume control as well. Depending on how heavy handed you are the fumes will be almost nil to the same as regular AR. I'm of the mindset that I have the time and would rather add my ingredients slowly to keep the fumes and nitric levels in check. This saves chemical costs also. Besides, all the red-brown fumes you see coming out of the reaction flask are fumes that will not be used to dissolve gold or base metals.
> 
> I don't recommend HCl-Cl directly on karat scrap unless it's extremely thin. Even then you will have problems with passivization from silver chloride build up and HCl-Cl is slower than either variety of AR. Medium heating (60-90C) the reaction is a must with HCl-Cl.
> 
> ...



I dropped a 6g button of 10k scrap in hcl CL.- relatively flat - I've read the other methods and understood the risks... But how long should it take to digest the whole button? And more importantly... How much hcl and CL should it take? 

I didn't have enough gold plated dishes to justify dipping in hcl CL so figured it try it on on my little button to get a feel for dealing with extremely corrosive liquids. Worse case scenario the button didn't dissolve all the way and I try to get as much AU back out as I can. Trial and error so to say.

Right now my setup is currently safely stored in a big glass container with a rubber lid inside of multiple plastic containers concealed outside on my property...I've incrementally added hcl up to 300 ml HCL and 4:1 bleach ratio therefrom in slow increments allowing for lots of stirring. 

The button was beginning to breakdown pretty well and there are bits of dark flakes swirling around the bottom. I have a few hunches on what they could be but I am waiting to observe the very slow progression of the digestion process before I begin to worry about anything. 

Technically could it take up to a gallon of Hcl and a quart of CL to fully go through the digestion process(setting aside all the pain in the butts that come along with dipping scrap karat in hcl CL)?

Thanks for the time.


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## Pantherlikher (Jul 3, 2014)

What you are doing is trying to dissolve base metals in a solution designed to dissolve gold.
What you want to do is dissolve base metals with the right solution designed to dissolve base metals and leave gold behind.

Try heated HCL baths to rid K gold of the impurities like Tin, lead nickel...etc. All base metals used and could become a problem getting gold.

Or...
Study processes for K gold filled and follow what's recommended.

B.S.


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## Clneal2003 (Jul 4, 2014)

Well I checked the 6 gram 10k nugget I dipped in hcl cl this morning after it sat outside for two days... And it's completely digested. The liquid is a nice deep yellow and there is a little bit of very dark colored sediment in the bottom of the mixing glass. I'm not sure exactly what the sediment is at this time but I'll do some research. I'm going to let it set out again over night. Tomorrow I'll strain the sediment out and precipitate the aucl with SMB. 

I plan on running the precipitate back through another hcl CL cycle before finally washing and rinsing with hot hcl and water cycles. I figure I'll run the sediment through another cycle of hcl and CL to try to see if I get any more gold & and figure out what is in it.

I don't have stannous chloride... I plan on hitting the local hardware to pick up some 95% tin solder and try to make stannous... I'm a little nervous though because I don't have a method to heat hcl up to a known temp. I have a small electric camping grill I could use but I'm not sure how I'll tell the temp. I also have an electric candle warmer but that thing takes forever to get to operating temp. I figured if I get 48.3% of 6 grams in gold I know I got pretty close to getting all of the gold. 

Any suggestions on measuring temp of hot hcl. I've got a candy thermometer and a few other thermometers but they all have metal tips.  it would probably breakdown and spill mercury in my solution before I got a good temp reading.


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## butcher (Jul 5, 2014)

If you are just making stannous chloride, you only need to provide the reaction with a little heat to help it along, I would not worry to much about the temperature of the acid, just warming it would be fine.

Heat will just help the tin dissolve faster than it would cold, (which could take a while depending how thick the tin metal was).

To help the tin solder dissolve a bit easier you can smash the solder flat, or make shavings with a knife.

Some thermometers are glass with mercury inside (or some other fluid that will expand with heat), these can be used to check temperatures of acid solutions, as long as the thermometers scale is not lower than the substance tested, the hot acid will not attack the glass casing.

You would not wont to have the bulb of these sitting on the bottom of a pot basically against the source of heat, where the temperature could be much greater where the glass and the heat source contact...

Digital non-contact thermometers are useful also and you can find them many times relatively cheap, depending where you look, you may sometimes find these in hardware stores. I noticed Home Depot had one in the electrical section (did not pay attention to the price), a member recently made a post with a cheap source for them at around $10 or so.


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## Clneal2003 (Jul 5, 2014)

Thanks butcher. I appreciate you sharing the info.


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