# 1st try with smelting catalytic convertors



## kjavanb123 (Dec 7, 2014)

All,

This is my first try with smelting catalytic convertor. I pulverized one piece in my ball mill, sieve it, as you can see below,

Screened pulverized convertor,



To that added equal volume of borax, and 1/2 volume cryolite, mixed them for half an hour in ball mill, it turned out like this,



Again, to the mix above added 60g of copper powder, mixed it well in ball mill, this is just as I added copper powder,



Put the mix inside a clay graphite cruicble then inside the induction furnace, for half and hour untill it was fluid, poured the molten mix to "V" shaped steel mold, and it cooled as following picture,



Broke the piece above, and one thing noticable is the color of slag, metallic alloy weighed 35g, so wondering where is other 25g of it, I will grind the slag to see if I can find small beads,



I will send the metallic alloy, and slag for fire assay test for Pt, Pd and Rh.

Regards,
Kevin


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 7, 2014)

As has been said before. A good way to determine if there are ball's of metal in the flux is to pour it on a sheet of iron so the slag is thin enough to break apart to identify if there are metals in the slag.


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## nickvc (Dec 7, 2014)

Kevin with low temperatures you are going to need a large amount of collector metal to withdraw the values, this is normally done in arc furnaces of immense size and cost and where even the carbon is reclaimed and reused.
Again I applaud the effort but I fear failure here.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 8, 2014)

All,

Thanks for the comments.

Nickvc,

I believe reading a post title "cats and induction", where they proposed an induction furnace to do this job. I was hoping by this post I should get tips from members with more knowledge but lacking the equipment to run the test for smelting catayltic convertors. 
I am going to remelt the slags and the alloy this time with more copper powder and let it stay inside the furnace for a longer period.

Barren,
I tried that method and there was no prill. 

Best
Kevin


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 8, 2014)

Well your down 25g in weight just from the loss of copper plus the small amount of PM's. Some of the copper could have oxidized if you didn't have a cover over the molten solution. I'm interested in knowing what the test on the slag produces.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 8, 2014)

Barren,

I have to grind the slags first to see if I can recover any beads. I am going to try with more copper powder and remelt the slags and alloy bar to see what kind of result I get.

Your help can be very encouraging.

Best regards
Kevin


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## samuel-a (Dec 15, 2014)

Kevin,

If you already know you weren't able to collect all of the collector metal and thus surely did not collect all the values - what is the point in sending the resulting button for assay?
Assuming no loss to oxidation during the smelt, you should expect little gain in the resulting button, not loss.

I'm no expert, but i would try blending the same volume of collector as the flux+cat volume and see from there.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Samuel,

Thanks for your comment. I am not sure about result bar, I will try a new mix of flux and silver as collector. Let the mix stay in furnace longer.

Here is another interesting link regarding smelting catalytic converters,

http://www.tmt.unze.ba/zbornik/TMT2011/167-TMT11-048.pdf

Also, on page 219 of CM Hook book, she talks about using 2 parts "stock flux" for each part of material (old cruicble) and add an ounce of flouspar (in my case cyrolite) for each lb of material. i am going to melt an troy ounce of silver first, then add the mixture of flux and cats to the molten silver, and let the mix cook for one hour and see what happens.

Regards,
Kevin


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## Anonymous (Dec 15, 2014)

samuel-a said:


> Kevin, you already know you weren't able to collect all of the collector metal and thus surely did not collect all the values - what is the point in sending the resulting button for assay?



Obviously he likes paying for assays.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 19, 2014)

All,

Very detailed and interesting document about smelting catalytic converter using copper as a collector.

http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/136487

Best regards
Kevin


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## Platdigger (Dec 19, 2014)

Process efficiency: 84 and 80 percent. Sorry, but you will not be competitive at those levels.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 19, 2014)

Plat,

Let's try this method using flux ratio and mix mentioned in Hooks book, then see the results. I got very promising results from my shaker table project which I will share them soon.

Regards
Kevin


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## RGJohn (Dec 26, 2014)

I wonder if you didn't absorb some of the 'lost' copper into the slag. 
I see what appears to be copper oxide 'matte' on part of your ingot towards the right hand side.
-----
Did you ever determine if the copper collected any PGMs?


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 27, 2014)

Hi,

I have not sent the alloy to test yet, as I have a feeling that cruible was not in thr furnace for long plus my flux was not what it has to be, so I am fixing my furnace then give it another run with the right flux and flux to converter ratio, one with silver as collector and the other with copper and staying in furnace for at least an hour.

Regards
Kevin


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 27, 2014)

kjavanb123 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have not sent the alloy to test yet, as I have a feeling that cruible was not in thr furnace for long plus my flux was not what it has to be, so I am fixing my furnace then give it another run with the right flux and flux to converter ratio, one with silver as collector and the other with copper and staying in furnace for at least an hour.
> 
> ...



That is an hour after everything reaches melting temps correct?


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 27, 2014)

Barren,

My plan is to mix the flux and converter first, let that melt and flow, then add copper or silver to melt and pool at the bottom hoping they catch as much as PGMs, then let it sit for an hour to let induction agitate the mix for an hour, then pour to cone mold, separate slag from alloy, send them both to lab for PGM fire assay.

Regards
Kevin


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## samuel-a (Dec 28, 2014)

Kwvin,

You need to mix the collector with the the rest of the powder prior to melt down. Otherwise you will miss out on the PM's.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 28, 2014)

Samuel,

Thanks for your tip. So for silver as collector, I better convert it to silver chloride since it is powder like, then ball that and mix flux material, so it is mixed. Is it safe to say the soda ash used in flux will convert silver chloride to silver or should I add extra carbon to the flux?

Regards
Kevin


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 28, 2014)

kjavanb123 said:


> Samuel,
> 
> Thanks for your tip. So for silver as collector, I better convert it to silver chloride since it is powder like, then ball that and mix flux material, so it is mixed. Is it safe to say the soda ash used in flux will convert silver chloride to silver or should I add extra carbon to the flux?
> 
> ...



Bad move using silver chloride, best to use elemental silver powder.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 29, 2014)

Barren,

Well noted. I could not find powder silver metal locally, they are in forma of small beads, so I might try to melt them into a bar then sand paper them to get small as I can.

Also silver better collector metal as it wont oxidise in the melt unlike the copper which was lost into slag.

Regards
Kevin


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 29, 2014)

kjavanb123 said:


> Barren,
> 
> Well noted. I could not find powder silver metal locally, they are in forma of small beads, so I might try to melt them into a bar then sand paper them to get small as I can.
> 
> ...


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 29, 2014)

kjavanb123 said:


> kjavanb123 said:
> 
> 
> > Barren,
> ...



If you don't have silver for the collector I would wait till I had what was required to do the job.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 29, 2014)

Barren,

Please advise if I can dissolve metallic silver in nitric then drop it with copper slab, would that silver be efficent to do the job? Or should I find the pure metal powder? How much ks sufficent?

Regards
Kj


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 29, 2014)

kjavanb123 said:


> Barren,
> 
> Please advise if I can dissolve metallic silver in nitric then drop it with copper slab, would that silver be efficent to do the job? Or should I find the pure metal powder? How much ks sufficent?
> 
> ...



That would be sufficent to do the job. You need to take into consideration that you will possibly have some silver loss due to volatization so your results are never going to be 100% accurate.


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 29, 2014)

Barren,

Thanks for the advise. So I guess finding fine metallic silver metal would be the best choice. I presume since each honeycomb contains minimal amount of PGMs, so an troy ounce of silver powder is sufficent. Please advise.

Regards
Kevin


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 29, 2014)

Looking at the amount of material in your photo's I would say that is a sufficent amount, but that is just a guess on my part. I think your best investment would be to purchase yourself a cone mold so your metal's would settle properly.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 29, 2014)

See if this will help you any.


View attachment mattesmeltingits00languoft_bw.pdf


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