# Precipitating gold from dirty AP solution



## g_axelsson (Jan 11, 2009)

I have read a lot on the forum and seen some hints that you should not drop gold from an AP solution. I don't know if that is just because it will be of lower quality or if there are any problems.

To detail what I've done so far...

1. I had a lot of fingers that I decided to try the AP process on. I thought that I had approximately 10 grams of gold. So I started a batch with AP. When the effect dropped I added HCl or H2O2 to get the process goint again. When the volume became too big I removed some of the solution. In the end I thought I had some undissolved copper so I think I overdosed the H2O2... Now I know I did but then I only had a feeling that the gold foils were disappearing.
2. I removed the rest of the AP solution and washed the gold foils repeatedly in water.
3. I dissolved the remaining gold in HCl+bleach.
4. I tried to get rid of excess acid and bleach by drying the solution outdoots.
5. Then I tried to drop the gold with SMB. As I got very little gold I added more SMB. In the end I got something that looked like dark brown gold with white crystals mixed in that refused to disappear when I washed it, not even when washing with HCl.

At this point I got tired on the experiment and put the jars with the solutions on a shelf outside. The autumn was really hectic so I left it standing until it dried up. Finally I have mixed up some tin chloride, added water to the dry salts and tested it for gold. The first batch of spent AP solution shows a low level of gold, the final batch shows higher levels and have a yellowish tint in the green. The gold with the white crystals is now a memikrokoden startar devicet med Activate Device och vantar pa att den ska bli ready, sen laser den in datat.ss of a heavy powder that behaves like heavy gold, on top of it there are a precipitation that reminds of AgCl in consistence and water with a bluish tint covering it all. Both layers have the same color, a pale greenish blue. The water doesn't test positive for gold.

So here are my question
-Can I precipitate the gold in the AP solution with SMB as usual or should I treat the solutions in some way first?
- Any idea of what the white crystal that formed with my gold was?
- Did I precipitate copper with my gold as I put too much SMB in the solution?

My plan is to :

1. Try to drop the gold from the AP solutions with SMB.
2. Redissolv the dirty gold, filter and drop it again with SMB.
3. Add a bit of copper to the AP solution after dropping the gold to see if something cements out on the copper.
4. Read responses to this post and saying "Dohhh!" when I read the advice too late... better make it the first point.

Looking forward for good advices. 

/Goran


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## butcher (Jan 11, 2009)

Im starting to get confused, 
do you have this in liquid or powder form?
If in liquid, and if liquid is acidic, a copper buss bar would let your acid replace the gold in solution with copper, and the gold would precipitate, and plate to the buss bar, also copper may precipitate with the gold.
if in powder form you can incenerate, cook off acids, and start over, after reading a little more on processing, so you understand the basic principles.
white powder can be many things, lead, silver, copper, table salt, and salts of metals and acids, even gold mixed with these.
acid peroxide makes chloride salts of metals.
adding sodium sulfite can precipitate the copper chloride which your gold will stick to(plate to)and sodium sulfate and HCl in solution, of coarse alot of this will also be determined by how acidic and how much Oxidizer is left in the solution.
I know after my post you will be as confused by my post as I am with yours.
2CuCL2 + Na2SO3 +H2O==> 2CuCl + Na2SO4 + 2HCl
and gold will follow your copper, if you have copper precipitant.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 11, 2009)

I was born confused. 

Sorry for not being clear enough. I'm talking about two different things. First the spent AP from dissolving the copper and some of the gold. Secondly the failed precipitation of my gold from boiled down gold foils in HCl/Cl. Between the two processes I washed the foils thoroughly so there shouldn't be more than a trace AP carried over to the HCl/Cl.

It did dry out, all three jars where I stored the solutions. It's been dry for at least four months but I added water to all of them to try to recover my gold. Today everything is in wet form.

To incinerate is not possible for me today, I'm living in an apartment on the third floor but I can mix various acids and stuff on the balcony. I do almost all work with acids outdoors. Incineration have to wait until summer and vacation in the cabin.

Thanks for the tips, I will put some copper in the spent AP solution to cement out gold and eventual extra values and start from the beginning.

As for the white crystals I got I don't think it could be so many different substances. The gold foil was well rinsed so it shouldn't contain that much tin/led from solders... unless it is not touched by AP. What I had in the beaker was


> water - yes
> gold - ABSOLUTELY!!!
> copper - yes
> peroxide - probably not more than trace, rinsed well
> ...


Okay, it is a lot. It doesn't really matter as I will redissolve it, filter off any solids and put it in the filter pot for incineration in the summer. I was just curious if someone had seen this before.
The white crystals precipitated at the same time as the gold. Except for the crystals it looked just as it did before when I dropped gold. This was my fourth time using SMB and the three times before it went just well.

... some time passes, I do some googling and a deep dive into wikipedia ...

I suspect that your guess is right on the spot. My overdose of SMB pressed the balance in the solution to produce copper(I)cloride which is almost insoluble and a white substance.
I'm going to think loud here as other may learn from tis, not only me.
Firstly, 2CuCl2 comes from copper in the gold foils. Na2SO3 is what's left from SMB after it have generated SO2. All of this is in solution. 
I would write
2CuCl2 + Na2SO3 +H2O <==> 2CuCl + Na2SO4 + 2HCl
as it is a chemical balance. Increase the concentration on eiher side to drive the reaction towards the other side. If we have excess HCl it will inhibit the production of CuCl. On the other hand, when I lacked HCl and added large amounts of SMB I forced the production of CuCl. As CuCl is almost insoluble in water it is removed from the right side and more CuCl is produced.

Two other processes that could happen since I dropped the gold is :
6 CuCl + 3/2 O2 + 3 H2O → 2 Cu3Cl2(OH)4 + CuCl2 
Which creates a greenish insoluble hydrated copper chloride salt and
2 CuCl → Cu + CuCl2
Which explain why I got a slight bluish copper solution when I added water to the dried gold mess.

CuCl may be insoluble in water but it is soluble in ammonia. I'll try to wash it in ammonia to see what happens. I'll report back afterwards.

Pssst, I don't think I did get confused... or did I? :?

Thanks for the help Butcher!


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## butcher (Jan 12, 2009)

Inceneration was only if you had powder.
changing from Ap to Hcl/bleach should be no problem as both are chloride.
sounds like you understand the chemistry and that is half the battle, if its just HCl and an oxidizer may try heating to boil off some of the oxidizer.


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## GoldMaker2 (Oct 3, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> I have read a lot on the forum and seen some hints that you should not drop gold from a AP solution. I don't know if that is just because it will be of lower quality or if there are any problems.
> 
> To detail what I've done so far...
> 
> ...



You have to filter the liquids, First the Soultion Hci/Ap then disolution then filter solutions at least two times each decanting from after two times also.
what this means is you need to use a spray bottle and spray tap water thru your filter solution in the filter to seperate the ions and gold.Chlorine will pull gold to cling to it.
if you have undisolved foils than your mix is not correct, Mix it 50/50 then hci/ap disolve what it will say 100ml 50/hci/50 ap, let disolve foils then filter spray thru coffee filter med not fine, two times collect solution add the smb, mix well, then add amonia to solution you will see white gas off it don't breath it, will go away and be ok, then add more amonia till solution truns black full strength, no water at this time, solutions will turn green and only gold will drop out of solution after this and over time in the next 24-48 hrs . yellow/ gold/ brn solution is in bottom. decant solutions and save there is more in it to collect, unless it is clear. water will not test for gold with stanious cloride, no need to, 
refilter the precipate in coffee filter and spray tap water to rinse thur filter should be no mud left in filter must spray it thru filter in to jar, each rinsing makes it more fine and pure to 24k, Remember gold disolved in hci/ap is green in color and copper is blue,. do not pour out your green solution until it is diluted enough, must not have green in it, use amonia to precipate it and let sit for days to get any other ions not seen by the eyes to drop in solution amoina will also delute the acids and smb, dont need more smb in same solution. when light clear or green recant to other jar and collect precipate and dry or mix with other precipate saved.

If you keep filtering meaning pouring the solutions in the filter over and over it will collect the gold and hold it in the filter until it is forced, sprayed thru for it to separate in solution again again if it does water and gold will separate and not mix and collecting the jar under the coffee filter you must let it still again to collect at the bottom

then dry and melt or keep precipate dry it will redisolve if mixed with water again after drying but will reprecipate again if it sits in jar or container
water and gold will not mix together they will stir up that way but will always settle apart gold and water can not be destroyed two different elements separated
Plastic and styrine will absorbe gold precipate in solution like gold ore rocks do in the earth, do not use stainless to disolve in. Use glass beaker's for your projects with lables marked with equations or volumes,




a better way is to use Vinagr and table salt with a 12v battery disolve your gold in shorter time. using smb and amonia and filtering to precipate.

And now a new better way than Aqua rega, no Nitric acid needed to disolve gold ore on this one! No HCI or AP Mix alone can do it better

just ask, 

Danny


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## Geo (Oct 3, 2014)

Danny, do you live in the U.S.A.?


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## butcher (Oct 3, 2014)

Danny, I would have to spend more time to reread your post but from a first glance It looks extremely dangerous that is if it will even do anything.
I noticed you have another post that just doesn't look right.


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## GoldMaker2 (Oct 3, 2014)

Geo said:


> Danny, do you live in the U.S.A.?


 all American


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## Geo (Oct 3, 2014)

I think I understand. This topic is talking about the copper(II) chloride method of dissolving base metal and not intentionally dissolving gold. I may be wrong about your meaning but I believe you are talking about dissolving foils with hcl and hydrogen peroxide.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Oct 3, 2014)

GoldMaker2 said:


> You have to filter the liquids, First the Soultion Hci/Ap then disolution then filter solutions at least two times each decanting from after two times also.
> what this means is you need to use a spray bottle and spray tap water thru your filter solution in the filter to seperate the ions and gold.Chlorine will pull gold to cling to it.



The reason behind the use of AP is to keep from dissolving your gold into solution and to remove the base metals that are present so that a purer form of gold can be processed. When your AP is first set up the use of 3% peroxide can and will dissolve some of the gold but as the base metals saturate your solution it will force your gold back out of your solution.



GoldMaker2 said:


> if you have undisolved foils than your mix is not correct, Mix it 50/50 then hci/ap disolve what it will say 100ml 50/hci/50 ap, let disolve foils then filter spray thru coffee filter med not fine, two times collect solution add the smb, mix well, then add amonia to solution you will see white gas off it don't breath it, will go away and be ok, then add more amonia till solution truns black full strength, no water at this time, solutions will turn green and only gold will drop out of solution after this and over time in the next 24-48 hrs . yellow/ gold/ brn solution is in bottom. decant solutions and save there is more in it to collect, unless it is clear. water will not test for gold with stanious cloride, no need to,
> refilter the precipate in coffee filter and spray tap water to rinse thur filter should be no mud left in filter must spray it thru filter in to jar, each rinsing makes it more fine and pure to 24k, Remember gold disolved in hci/ap is green in color and copper is blue,. do not pour out your green solution until it is diluted enough, must not have green in it, use amonia to precipate it and let sit for days to get any other ions not seen by the eyes to drop in solution amoina will also delute the acids and smb, dont need more smb in same solution. when light clear or green recant to other jar and collect precipate and dry or mix with other precipate saved.
> 
> If you keep filtering meaning pouring the solutions in the filter over and over it will collect the gold and hold it in the filter until it is forced, sprayed thru for it to separate in solution again again if it does water and gold will separate and not mix and collecting the jar under the coffee filter you must let it still again to collect at the bottom



All I can see that you are doing is adjusting your PH with the ammonia and then heavily dosing your solution with SMB. I don't feel your process is going to be readily accepted here on the forum because of the fact that you are using ammonia in this part of the process. I'm not saying that ammonia is not a viable ingredient to use in refining but not in the area you are using for the people on this forum. There are too many people here on the forum that do not know the chemistry behind what you are doing and the use of ammonia can make dangerous substances when overly used in your process.




GoldMaker2 said:


> then dry and melt or keep precipate dry it will redisolve if mixed with water again after drying but will reprecipate again if it sits in jar or container
> water and gold will not mix together they will stir up that way but will always settle apart gold and water can not be destroyed two different elements separated
> Plastic and styrine will absorbe gold precipate in solution like gold ore rocks do in the earth, do not use stainless to disolve in. Use glass beaker's for your projects with lables marked with equations or volumes,
> 
> ...



A simple cell with the production of HCL during the process.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 6, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> I have read a lot on the forum and seen some hints that you should not drop gold from a AP solution. I don't know if that is just because it will be of lower quality or if there are any problems.
> 
> To detail what I've done so far...
> 
> ...


The problem was solved five years ago. The white crystals together with my gold was probably CuCl that precipitated from the copper chloride solution. They disappeared when I washed the precipitate with HCl.

Danny, there's a lot of bad advices in what you wrote. First of all the spelling of chemicals, it's spelled HCl, not Hci. That's a small "L" at the end, not a large "i". Cl means one atom of Chloride.


GoldMaker2 said:


> You have to filter the liquids, First the Soultion Hci/Ap then disolution then filter solutions at least two times each decanting from after two times also.
> what this means is you need to use a spray bottle and spray tap water thru your filter solution in the filter to seperate the ions and gold.Chlorine will pull gold to cling to it.
> if you have undisolved foils than your mix is not correct, Mix it 50/50 then hci/ap disolve what it will say 100ml 50/hci/50 ap, let disolve foils then filter spray thru coffee filter med not fine, two times collect solution add the smb, mix well, then add amonia to solution you will see white gas off it don't breath it, will go away and be ok, then add more amonia till solution truns black full strength, no water at this time, solutions will turn green and only gold will drop out of solution after this and over time in the next 24-48 hrs . yellow/ gold/ brn solution is in bottom. decant solutions and save there is more in it to collect, unless it is clear. water will not test for gold with stanious cloride, no need to,
> refilter the precipate in coffee filter and spray tap water to rinse thur filter should be no mud left in filter must spray it thru filter in to jar, each rinsing makes it more fine and pure to 24k, Remember gold disolved in hci/ap is green in color and copper is blue,. do not pour out your green solution until it is diluted enough, must not have green in it, use amonia to precipate it and let sit for days to get any other ions not seen by the eyes to drop in solution amoina will also delute the acids and smb, dont need more smb in same solution. when light clear or green recant to other jar and collect precipate and dry or mix with other precipate saved.


Truthfully, I can't follow your instructions, it's all mixed, I don't understand what you are trying to tell, for example what do you mean with "Chlorine will pull gold to cling to it."? It doesn't make sense. Or when talking about filtering, "refilter the precipate in coffee filter and spray tap water to rinse thur filter should be no mud left in filter must spray it thru filter in to jar, each rinsing makes it more fine and pure to 24k,"
How do you spray the gold thru filter? Wouldn't that force contaminants through the filter too?

By the way, I almost always use professional filter paper and I never put the gold in the filter, it will stick to the paper and the losses will increase. Beakers are also better than using jars.


> If you keep filtering meaning pouring the solutions in the filter over and over it will collect the gold and hold it in the filter until it is forced, sprayed thru for it to separate in solution again again if it does water and gold will separate and not mix and collecting the jar under the coffee filter you must let it still again to collect at the bottom
> 
> then dry and melt or keep precipate dry it will redisolve if mixed with water again after drying but will reprecipate again if it sits in jar or container


What! Are you claiming precipitated gold would dissolve in only water? And then spontaneously precipitate again? You're wrong, totally wrong here. It will not happen.


> water and gold will not mix together they will stir up that way but will always settle apart gold and water can not be destroyed two different elements separated
> Plastic and styrine will absorbe gold precipate in solution like gold ore rocks do in the earth, do not use stainless to disolve in. Use glass beaker's for your projects with lables marked with equations or volumes,
> 
> a better way is to use Vinagr and table salt with a 12v battery disolve your gold in shorter time. using smb and amonia and filtering to precipate.


Mixing ammonia with dissolved precious metals are risky, it has a high probability to form explosive compounds! It's dangerous stuff!


> And now a new better way than Aqua rega, no Nitric acid needed to disolve gold ore on this one! No HCI or AP Mix alone can do it better
> 
> just ask,
> 
> Danny


I'm not interested in any "secret magical" solution to refine gold. Your quality of advice above is proof enough. You have to improve a lot before I would even consider asking for advice from you.

Göran


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## Barren Realms 007 (Oct 6, 2014)

He has been banned from the forum by Harold I think for removing his other posts.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 7, 2014)

I missed that he got banned but I saw that thread so I'm not surprised.
I never expected an answer, I just wanted to say something since he cited me in one of my earlier threads.

Göran


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