# uncertain of results



## WallaceFish (Apr 24, 2012)

Using AR method, 100g of alloy + 300ml HCl + 50ml Nitric added until no more recation. Let it settle overnight (very dark green solution). Lots of grey matter accumilation at the bottom. Filtered that off with some chunks of alloy left over. Next, had only good clean filtered, dark green solution. Dissolved 5g SMB in distilled water, added to filtered solution AND... precipitated more grey matter. Last time, I used the EXACT same method but got Au with SMB addition. Now it seems I am getting AgCl but that doesn't make any sense to me. All that should have dropped out while cooling overnight PLUS the material was low in Ag. If gold content in feedstock is very little, will this be difficult to recover?


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## publius (Apr 24, 2012)

Did you test with stannous chloride?

some members may ask you to post pictures.

Robert Jeffery, CWI


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## Geo (Apr 24, 2012)

AgCl will precipitate from AR solution when it cools AND when its diluted. use salt to remove the silver first and it shouldnt effect your gold drop.dilution using ice helps the silver chloride settle but even at that, there will still be silver in your gold. dont forget the washes and rinses to remove the silver from your gold powder.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 24, 2012)

How much should the solution be dilluted?


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## Geo (Apr 24, 2012)

at least double the volume, even triple the volume wouldnt be too much as you can always evaporate water.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 24, 2012)

would my addition of SMB have had any adverse affects on the process? meaning i added smb... got nothing. dilluted and filtering again. recommend next step please?


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 24, 2012)

Before filtering, I've diluted by adding 3 parts tap water to 1 part AR for 40 years with excellent results. You have to understand that AgCl is slightly soluble in strong AR. If you don't dilute it (or, use ice to chill it) before filtering, it will precipitate mainly when you dilute it by rinsing the inside of the container into the filter. Even a very small addition of water will precipitate some AgCl from strong AR, which could end up with the gold. To me, it's easier to get the silver out early than it is to get it out later.

What sort of "alloy" are we talking about? Karat gold? What karat? Approx. what percentage of the metal didn't dissolve?


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## WallaceFish (Apr 24, 2012)

majority of the shot I made was GP junk. I am not even sure it was gold at this point. Along with it was some 14k stuff. As for the inner base metals of the GP material it was soft and gray like Pb but not as heavy. All together it made about 600g of shot. I only ran 100g as a "test run". I cant imagine there was that much Ag in this stuff. Im probably wrong though. After AR was spent, there was a lot of gray mud (AgCl I am guessing) and about 15-20 percent of the material left over but NOT untouched. It got beat up pretty good. It basically crumbles in your fingers. Stannous test is yellow but I am sceptical of my stannous solution. My chems are as follows:

HCl ACS reagent 37%
Nitric ACS reagent 70

Edit: Okay, I found the culprit. I threw in some watchband links and they are loaded with silver and steel. Looked at some samples under the scope. So, now that I have determined that I am overloaded with silver. Now what?


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## publius (Apr 24, 2012)

dilute 50/50, add salt or HCl to make sure all the silver came down, Filter and wash the AgCl. and then continue as normal.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 24, 2012)

Ok Pub, thanks a bunch. I got blindsided there. Just out of curiosity and for future reference, what does adding salt do exactly? I also wanted to mention but forgot earlier, I added dissolved SMB. When that did not work, I added dry SMB and it instantly fizzed and turned brown then dissapeared. Whats that all about?


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## Geo (Apr 24, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> Ok Pub, thanks a bunch. I got blindsided there. Just out of curiosity and for future reference, what does adding salt do exactly? I also wanted to mention but forgot earlier, I added dissolved SMB. When that did not work, I added dry SMB and it instantly fizzed and turned brown then dissapeared. Whats that all about?



table salt is Sodium Chloride. the chloride in the salt reacts with the silver nitrate to create silver chloride.hydrochloric acid is another source of chloride, same principle.

if you put dry SMB in the solution and it fizzed, it means you have free nitric in the solution. thats the reason the SMB failed to drop the gold. you have to remove this free nitric so the SMB can do its job.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 24, 2012)

Very interesting. Makes sense Geo. I was very careful NOT to add too much Nitric. Only 50ml and still didnt dissolve everything.


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## Lobby (Apr 24, 2012)

50 mls of nitric for your AR solution, but only 5 g SMB?

Those ratios are way off. If you needed 50 mls of HNO3, then you would have had over 100g gold (off memory. I'm traveling and don't have my spreadsheets with me). And 100g gold requires about 100g SMB to drop it. 

Either you've not added enough SMB, or you used (and still have) way too much nitric.


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## lazersteve (Apr 24, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> ... I added dissolved SMB. When that did not work, I added dry SMB and it instantly fizzed and turned brown then dissapeared. Whats that all about?



Check out this post:

Precipitating with Dry SMB

Steve


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## nickvc (Apr 25, 2012)

Well having read this thread I can see major problems ahead. By melting all this material together you have created a headache to deal with, there could be a real mix of base metals including tin and this will be a nightmare if it's in your AR. There are thousands of posts and threads on how to deal with various types of scrap, recovering the gold or values and removing base metals, this for most scrap is mandatory. Now you have a mix I'd suggest cementing your values on copper sheet and test the solution to make sure all values have been recovered, stannous here is your eyes, put the recovered values aside, seal and keep somewhere safe the solution and start reading.
Start with C.M.Hoke it's available as a free download off many members signature lines, read the safety section here on the forum and the forum handbooks again free,visit our very own Lasersteves site and watch and better buy his videos, this might not what you want to hear but I highly recommend you do what I suggest or else your refining experience will be a very frustrating and troublesome one.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 25, 2012)

Nick, I pretty much covered all of the literature you mentioned. I am using the lab I work in, so I am extremely familiar with lab safety protocols. I wont accidentally be making any fulminates. As for Hoke's "bible" I have that covered. Maybe parts I misunderstand, but none the less I do have a biology degree that required some chemistry to obtain. In other words I would consider myself slightly more advanced than those that just "throw it in acid and see what happens". The things I am NOT familiar with: Identifying metals that look similar i.e. gold/brass, silver/platinum, tin/lead and so on. So I may have melted in all these metals not knowing there was tin involved in the process. Like I said, I cant take a piece of jewelry, look at it, and tell you what is there. I can see on the outside there is gold... A watchband has stainless steel and so on, but break it and look in the center... I don't know. Nickle? LOL And what is stannous powder supposed to look like? I have a small 10g jar but it is difficult to dissolve in HCl hence I am sceptical of its "authenticity". My next move will be to send pictures of what I am using as feedstock so you guys can see exactly what I'm dealing with. I think may get y'all closer to target.


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## etack (Apr 25, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> In other words I would consider myself slightly more advanced than those that just "throw it in acid and see what happens".



It seems that is what you did. 

Eric


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## Lobby (Apr 25, 2012)

Wallace,

I tend to agree with Nick, but you need to have some stannous to see where you are. Right now you're running blind. 

I have pure tin metal I can send you. With it you can make some good stannous chloride test solution. Send me a pm. 

The mistake you made was dissolving a bunch of metals in ar without even knowing what you had. You also, apparently did not dissolve base metals prior to the AR step with nitric acid. Skipping this step is a critical error.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 25, 2012)

Eric, did you read the whole thread? That is not what I did. I performed the same tasks as I previously performed with positive results. So based on prior success, I duplicated that process. So if we think scientific method here, and use the fact that I got Au from what I did last time as a controll, it tells me that the problem lies not so much in the methodology, but in what I used (meaning the feedstock). So no. I did not blindly take a bunch of metal and immerse in acid just to see what would happen. I had an idea of what I would expect to see based on past experience. As I am sure you know, there is a learning curve to this discipline, of which I am currently at the low trajectory of. It is my desire through a number of channels, including trial and error and this forum's members, to gain a realatively high level of understanding of this "refining discipline". I have joined other forums on other unrelated subjects which harbor those that leap into a given venture with no knowledge of the matter and just seek "free answers". I am sure "those" show up here. I take science very seriously as I am a scientist by trade. I would very much appreciate to NOT be lumped in with one of "those". Things aren't always what they "seem".

Lobby, I greatly appreciate your offer. Before we decide to take that approach, I have some things here that I suspect are fasioned from tin. Is there any way that I can confirm this? In the future, I will adjust my methods to comply with standards of success. My understanding of the processes is evolving all the time which is basically what I am trying to convey to Eric above. To clarify, I was under the impression that all base metals along with PM's are dissolved and when SMB is added, it reacts with and ONLY with Au at atomic level, forcing it out of suspension and back into solid state. I now stand corrected. I am sure it states this in the book and on this site, but I am the type that learns more by way of both text and experimentation in laboratory setting. So dealing with these problems are more like an excersise to me rather than a total XXXX-up. Thank you to *all* who have contributed. I truly am grateful of this resource and I look foward to learning from you all. If ever any of you are interested in fisheries management practices, fish ecology, stock assessment biology or policy thereof, I would be more than happy to return the favor. Maybe we can divulge a way to refine the mercury out of a fish or something like that. LOL


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## Geo (Apr 25, 2012)

test solutions whether its gold or PGM's (platinum group metals), is covered in ms. Hoke's book. how to make and store and use them. stannous chloride test solution is the simplest of the lot. it is tin dissolved in hcl. it doesnt have to be pure tin, but it cant be contaminated with precious metals either. lead free solder is a good source of tin to make test solution.place a few grams in a glass bottle and add 100 ml's of hcl and let it sit overnight.be sure to keep a piece of undissolved metal in the solution to keep it active.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 25, 2012)

Yes sir Geo. I am fully aware of how to make the SnCl test solution. What I am not sure of however, is the white powder I bought that states that it is stannous chloride. I was curious if there is a way I can test some items I have lying around that I suspect are made of tin. My wife's cupcake hobby won't like it but they come dime a dozen. When I use the "SnCl" that I have, it turns a piss yellow. Not like a dehydrated piss but a medium piss. Not orange, not clear, but an in between yellow. Like how pee usually looks 90% of the time.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 25, 2012)

Do you not have a small bottle of auric chloride with which to test your testing solution? If not you should make some to have on hand to test your SnCl for viability. You can't use a test solution if it itself is in question. With your background you know that to be true. Just a thought.
Use Geos' advice and simply make some SnCl with 95/5 solder and HCl.


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## nickvc (Apr 25, 2012)

No disrespect meant but a background in most sciences means Jack when it comes to recovering and refining precious metals. It can help but also hinder as practical chemistry is not always as cooperative as theoretical chemistry and your belief in theoretical science can blind you to things that actually occur. Put your degree in the bin and study if you want to succeed at refining, it's not hard but it's a different subject, your mindset needs to adjust to a new challenge and a new set of rules, the basics of which are nicely outlined by Ms.Hoke and fully explored and explained here on the forum by people who bummed out on most science lessons but can recover and refine just about most value bearing materials. I'm no expert and will bow my head in shame to the amount I don't know about this subject but I will listen and I do learn,albeit slowly, and I have been in the business in every sense of the word probably longer than you have been alive.


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## Harold_V (Apr 25, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> I have some things here that I suspect are fasioned from tin. Is there any way that I can confirm this?


Tin, when bent, squeaks. 




> than a total XXXXup.


What is it, a bad phase of the moon?
We do not use that kind of language on this forum. If you hope to remain a reader, lose it, and do it quickly. 
No religion, no politics and no vulgar language. I'm going to start banning those who seem to think they are exempt. 

All of you-----


*CLEAN UP YOUR LANGUAGE. I AM NOT GOING TO POST FURTHER WARNINGS---I'M SIMPLY GOING TO START BANNING FOLKS WITH A POTTY MOUTH. * 

Harold


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## Geo (Apr 25, 2012)

sometimes you buy something packaged with a pretty bow and it turns out to be something other than what you thought. we have a member that was making standard test solution and bought a couple of grains of Pt from an individual on Ebay, the Pt turned out to be Pd. try something that you are very sure of.plumbers solder labeled 95/5 tin/antimony solder works great. the 5% antimony will not dissolve in hcl, or at least does so very slowly.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 26, 2012)

Harold, thanks for the tip on identifying tin. As for my language; I thought I was using sensorship while still conveying what I was thinking. I'll be sure to keep that in mind in my future posts. No need to consider banning me. One request to adjust my verbage will suffice.

Geo, I took some of the HCl I used to wash my gold powder from my last run, and tested it with the questionable SnCl. Result: a little more than faint purple hue on the swab. I then tested on spent AR solution from last run and no change. I tested current AR solution and still getting a pee yellow. So I guess it is safe to say that my SnCl IS in fact doing its intended duty. So now that I have that issue cleared up, I took some samples of the shot that I did not do anything with yet, and looked at them under my scope. There is visible Au on this slag. I am convinced with 99.999% confidence that the last stuff I ran through had no gold in it or perhaps so little in comparison to BM that it was simply undetectable. In reading the book, I vaguely remember it mentioning something to this affect. This is what I mean when I said I can read the book cover to cover. But if I don't witness these things in a lab, it does not register completely. That's just my learning style. 

Nick, you are right. These are two very different disciplines of science that rarely overlap if at all. But there are standards between the two that don't change at all, across the board. Like lab practices that ensure safety and quality control. This is an angle where I consider myself already a step ahead. Now don't get me wrong. That doesn't mean I think I am exempt from the need of any further knowlege. To put it in most basic terms I can think of... if you take, say a UPS truck driver, never seen a full scale lab except for high school maybe. We'll rank him a 0 on the refining scale. Now take an individual that has 30 yrs+ experience and put him at a 10. Because PM refining encompasses knowlege of many different aspects, of which I would say I am very familiar with a few, I would say I am right off the bat a 2 or 3. Thus, I don't want to deal with redundancies in these areas. I really just want to skip to what I don't know yet. No disrespect taken. Just want all to know my level of background for the above reasons.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 26, 2012)

> Geo, I took some of the HCl I used to wash my gold powder from my last run, and tested it with the questionable SnCl. Result: a little more than faint purple hue on the swab. I then tested on spent AR solution from last run and no change. I tested current AR solution and still getting a pee yellow. So I guess it is safe to say that my SnCl IS in fact doing its intended duty.



However, you should still make an AuCl solution and keep it to test your SnCl before use to make sure of its quality. Otherwise you can easily lose values. Also one for Pd,Pt etc. if you intend on dealing with these elements.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 26, 2012)

Indeed Maynman. This would be good practice. Would you have any disagreement regarding my methods of proving my current SnCl solution?


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## Geo (Apr 26, 2012)

you can test against a known source of gold solution. dissolve a couple of grains of gold in what ever solution you prefer, either AR or hcl/Cl and keep it in a glass bottle as a standard for your stannous chloride.the investment of the $15.00 or so of gold can help eliminate alot of headaches in the future.


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## nickvc (Apr 26, 2012)

Please take this again in the manner it's meant.
In honesty it easier to teach a complete newbie the right ways if they have the right attitude than try to re educate someone who has some chemical knowledge, reason is they accept that the masters here on the forum and the teachings of Hoke will get them to their desired goal in the safest and fastest manner and don't try to re invent the wheel or argue because they think they know better.
Forget what you think you know and go back to basics, read Hoke, it's a brilliant easy to understand guide to recovery and refining precious metals, it teaches testing techniques and gives some good easy steps to get you started slowly and safely, if you have a background in lab work or chemistry it's like doing a refresher course that re focuses your mind to the processes and methods commonly used, it also covers PGMs and that is far from easy to master but with the book and help here on the forum it's possible for even a truck driver or an office worker to refine them. 
We have a huge variety of people of all ages,cultures,sex and diverse occupations many of whom would honestly say they struggle to write quickly or coherently in their native tongue but who would run rings round me in actual refining and recovery and I ran my own commercial refinery for many years.
I learn something virtually everyday I come onto the forum, this is one very very big subject and I'd bet no one knows it all, even our moderators many of whom have spent a lifetime refining discover new things on here. This is a very much a hands on getting down and dirty science and while books give you a good background actual experience will beat them hands down but you need the basics first to have an understanding of what you are doing and what reaction to expect. If as you say you have a chemistry background it's a good start but don't neglect the basics or it might come back to haunt you.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 26, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> Indeed Maynman. This would be good practice. Would you have any disagreement regarding my methods of proving my current SnCl solution?



It's questionable and where there is question there is doubt. I myself would want to know *for sure *(where values may be involved) that my testing solution was viable. I'm on a very low budget and am trying to get every grain possible from my work. But if you are using a stock pot correctly, most all of your values should be recovered eventually. Just my opinion.


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## gold4mike (Apr 26, 2012)

I made an AuCl solution using the first foils I got from my very first processing of edge fingers. That same solution still works more than 2 years later for testing my Stannous Chloride solution.

It now has little chunks of rubber floating about in it from one of the eye droppers that didn't get changed out quickly enough, but it still works fine. It has LONG outlasted several batches of Stannous Chloride.

It is still one of the most valuable items in my growing lab. It only cost a dollar or two worth of my gold to give me the peace of mind I need when discarding solutions.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 26, 2012)

maynman1751 said:


> WallaceFish said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed Maynman. This would be good practice. Would you have any disagreement regarding my methods of proving my current SnCl solution?
> ...


So... Just to clarify here. I DID in fact test a KNOWN gold pregnant solution with the "questionable" SnCl. That gave me a POSITIVE result for Au. So from that, I gather my SnCl is authentic. I am still somwhat unclear of what you are saying. Are you saying I should test against another known gold bearing solution? Are you saying you DO disagree with my methods taken in proving the SnCl? Or is the fact that I'm getting a strange reading from the AR solution? Please, might you expand on that a bit?



nickvc said:


> Please take this again in the manner it's meant.
> In honesty it easier to teach a complete newbie the right ways if they have the right attitude than try to re educate someone who has some chemical knowledge, reason is they accept that the masters here on the forum and the teachings of Hoke will get them to their desired goal in the safest and fastest manner and don't try to re invent the wheel or argue because they think they know better.
> Forget what you think you know and go back to basics, read Hoke, it's a brilliant easy to understand guide to recovery and refining precious metals, it teaches testing techniques and gives some good easy steps to get you started slowly and safely, if you have a background in lab work or chemistry it's like doing a refresher course that re focuses your mind to the processes and methods commonly used, it also covers PGMs and that is far from easy to master but with the book and help here on the forum it's possible for even a truck driver or an office worker to refine them.
> We have a huge variety of people of all ages,cultures,sex and diverse occupations many of whom would honestly say they struggle to write quickly or coherently in their native tongue but who would run rings round me in actual refining and recovery and I ran my own commercial refinery for many years.
> I learn something virtually everyday I come onto the forum, this is one very very big subject and I'd bet no one knows it all, even our moderators many of whom have spent a lifetime refining discover new things on here. This is a very much a hands on getting down and dirty science and while books give you a good background actual experience will beat them hands down but you need the basics first to have an understanding of what you are doing and what reaction to expect. If as you say you have a chemistry background it's a good start but don't neglect the basics or it might come back to haunt you.


Nick, Absolutely understand what you are saying. And I could see where in many cases that would certainly apply.


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## Harold_V (Apr 26, 2012)

gold4mike said:


> I made an AuCl solution using the first foils I got from my very first processing of edge fingers. That same solution still works more than 2 years later for testing my Stannous Chloride solution.
> 
> It now has little chunks of rubber floating about in it from one of the eye droppers that didn't get changed out quickly enough, but it still works fine. It has LONG outlasted several batches of Stannous Chloride.
> 
> It is still one of the most valuable items in my growing lab. It only cost a dollar or two worth of my gold to give me the peace of mind I need when discarding solutions.


I highly commend you for your wisdom. 
It never ceases to amaze me that some folks can't see the wisdom in testing. It's even more confusing to encounter folks that simply assume that the tests they perform are factual. Without a standard solution to test stannous chloride, that certainly is the case. 

There's many simple processes that one can employ to ensure that they are getting proper results. When I refined, I had a series of tests I performed on solutions. I wanted to know exactly what I was dealing with, leaving nothing to chance. I even tested for iron on occasion, when I wasn't comfortable that the results I witnessed were in keeping with reality. Hoke details how to test for iron, if you're interested. 

Unless given a reason, standard solutions of metals should remain viable until fully consumed. I had a platinum solution that was many years old, and still functioned as it should. 

Harold


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## maynman1751 (Apr 26, 2012)

> So... Just to clarify here. I DID in fact test a KNOWN gold pregnant solution with the "questionable" SnCl. That gave me a POSITIVE result for Au. So from that, I gather my SnCl is authentic. I am still somwhat unclear of what you are saying. Are you saying I should test against another known gold bearing solution? Are you saying you DO disagree with my methods taken in proving the SnCl? Or is the fact that I'm getting a strange reading from the AR solution? Please, might you expand on that a bit?



One fact is that you did get a strange reading from your AR. If you are sure of your known gold solution and satisfied with your test that's fine. I'm just saying that you should keep a known solution(s) that you use strictly for testing the quality of your test solution so there is no margin for error. That's all! Better safe than sorry!


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## WallaceFish (Apr 26, 2012)

Yes maynman, I am* very *sure of my KGS. Just needed reasurance from someone with more experience than I. Thank you! So any idea of what yellow means as a test result? Can't find anything stating other than the purple, orange, multi-color, ect. Nothing says what yellow is... LOL

Edit: Or if it does mention it somewhere, I missed it.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 26, 2012)

Well I don't have all that much experience myself. I just repeat what I know as fact that I have learned on this forum. The SnCl test is your eyes into your solution and it doesn't lie although you CAN get false results under certain conditions.
Maybe someone else can give you an answer about the yellow test result.


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## Geo (Apr 26, 2012)

this may not be your culprit, but, even though stannous chloride is hcl and tin and the solution is clear, if you test a hcl solution that has a high percentage of tin in solution it can stain your test yellow. as well as zinc and lead. is there a needle like precipitation in the solution? (short, pointed,thin,cylindrical)


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## Harold_V (Apr 26, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> Yes maynman, I am* very *sure of my KGS. Just needed reasurance from someone with more experience than I. Thank you! So any idea of what yellow means as a test result? Can't find anything stating other than the purple, orange, multi-color, ect. Nothing says what yellow is... LOL
> 
> Edit: Or if it does mention it somewhere, I missed it.


A trace of platinum in solution may well test yellow with stannous chloride. Needless to say, the level of concentration will make a big difference, right down to a coffee colored reaction if the concentration level is high enough.

Please take note that ect is not a word. If you are attempting to use the contraction for the words et cetera, it is properly spelled etc. We strive for correctness on this forum. Nothing personal----I speak out on this regularly. 

Harold


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## WallaceFish (Apr 27, 2012)

Geo said:


> this may not be your culprit, but, even though stannous chloride is hcl and tin and the solution is clear, if you test a hcl solution that has a high percentage of tin in solution it can stain your test yellow. as well as zinc and lead. is there a needle like precipitation in the solution? (short, pointed,thin,cylindrical)



Geo, there is no cylindrical precipitation in the solution. I have since, added a piece of this "gold plated" jewelry to a vessel with some nitric. The result was this: Noticable flakes of gold accumilated around the edges of my Griffin beaker, as well as some settling to the bottom. I am talking very tiny visible amounts. As the Nitric began to work on the BM's a grayish to white powder formed on the bottom, covering the visible gold. The resulting reaction has made an aquamarine solution, but as I stated before, the bottom is covered in a layer of grayish white powder which is hiding the gold. This is NOT explained in the book. I know in the beginning it tells you to observe the behavior of mostly pure metals in different environments, however I wanted to take observation of this specific jewelry as I have a large sum of it. Thanks in advance for any expansion on this.


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## Geo (Apr 27, 2012)

sounds like tin.is the powder grainy when you try to filter, or does it turn soft and gooey. metastannic acid in nitric acid is a nightmare when you try to filter.if you had done a large lot, you would be screaming right now.the only real way to deal with metastannic acid is to incinerate it to recover the gold.


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## WallaceFish (Apr 27, 2012)

I would lean more toward the soft and gooey side. It goes right through the filter. So I have some gold plated tin... Hmmm. Interesting prospect.

Edit: I can bend at the pieces and chip the plating off, making gold shavings. I guess this would be a better way to avoid dealing with the excessive and troublsome base metals?


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## Geo (Apr 27, 2012)

if its really cheap plated jewelry, give it a hard boil in hcl and see what happens.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 27, 2012)

Plated stock should not be processed in that manner. It sounds as though it is dissolving the plating and then 'attacking' the base metals and that is what is depositing on the bottom. Plated material could have several different base metals that you really don't want in your solution. It is best to do plated in an electrolytic cell.


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## Geo (Apr 27, 2012)

what i told him is just an experiment to see what he is dealing with. he isnt doing big lots, just testing pieces to see what its made of and how it reacts. really its a better way of learning the reactions involved on really cheap material than waiting to learn on more expensive stuff.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm sorry Geo. I made this reply after the bottom of page 2 thinking that was the last post, DUH! At the time I didn't realize there was a third page going. DUH again!


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## Geo (Apr 27, 2012)

no worries. 8)


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## WallaceFish (Apr 27, 2012)

Geo, That's EXACTLY what I am doing. And this stuff is REALLY cheap. I mean old lady, everyday, gawdy cheap. Of sources to refine gold from, I would rate this stuff just above sea water. I shall do the boil in HCl.

maynman, it's not reall dissolving the plating perse. It is definately removing it from the main body of the jewelry but I can still see gold fleck in the goop like glitter. That is probably what you meant. It looks kinda cool actually. What is the basic principal of this "electrolytic cell" you speak of?

The results are in. HCl (37%) turned emerald green color. Again, visible Au flakes floating around. Some black granules formed and also something that looks a lot like salt... very granular. Most of the piece remains in tact with a dull pewter/Pb look to it. I have some heavy hitter 98% Sulfuric, just FYI.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 27, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> Geo, That's EXACTLY what I am doing. And this stuff is REALLY cheap. I mean old lady, everyday, gawdy cheap. Of sources to refine gold from, I would rate this stuff just above sea water. I shall do the boil in HCl.
> 
> maynman, it's not reall dissolving the plating perse. It is definately removing it from the main body of the jewelry but I can still see gold fleck in the goop like glitter. That is probably what you meant. It looks kinda cool actually. What is the basic principal of this "electrolytic cell" you speak of?
> 
> The results are in. HCl (37%) turned emerald green color. Again, visible Au flakes floating around. Some black granules formed and also something that looks a lot like salt... very granular. Most of the piece remains in tact with a dull pewter/Pb look to it. I have some heavy hitter 98% Sulfuric, just FYI.



Yes, thank you for the correction. I did mean to say that the solution was undermining the gold and releasing it from the base metal. The same as doing fingers in AP, more or less.

The electrolytic cell uses sulfuric acid, an anode, cathode and of course DC power to remove JUST the gold plating. It's very fast and efficient. If monitored properly, there very little base metals involved. Someone correct me if I am wrong as I have not done this myself and I am going from memory. Just do a search for Sulfuric Cell. There's lots of info on them.


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## maynman1751 (Apr 27, 2012)

Geo said:


> no worries. 8)



My only worry is my seemingly advancing Alzheimer's! :lol: I'm having more and more 'senior moments'! :shock:
May have a lot to do with the '70's!!!!! :mrgreen:


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## WallaceFish (May 1, 2012)

maynman, are you referring to age or era? You are only old if you say you are.


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## maynman1751 (May 1, 2012)

WallaceFish said:


> maynman, are you referring to age or era? You are only old if you say you are.



It was mostly just a joke! I just had a slight memory lapse! :lol:


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## g_axelsson (Feb 3, 2013)

Yes, I know it's an old thread but by reading it from the beginning it dawned to me that everyone missed one important thing so I'll add it for future readers.


WallaceFish said:


> Using AR method, 100g of alloy + 300ml HCl + 50ml Nitric added until no more recation. Let it settle overnight (very dark green solution). Lots of grey matter accumilation at the bottom. Filtered that off with some chunks of alloy left over. Next, had only good clean filtered, dark green solution. Dissolved 5g SMB in distilled water, added to filtered solution AND... precipitated more grey matter. Last time, I used the EXACT same method but got Au with SMB addition. Now it seems I am getting AgCl but that doesn't make any sense to me. All that should have dropped out while cooling overnight PLUS the material was low in Ag. If gold content in feedstock is very little, will this be difficult to recover?





WallaceFish said:


> majority of the shot I made was GP junk. I am not even sure it was gold at this point. Along with it was some 14k stuff. As for the inner base metals of the GP material it was soft and gray like Pb but not as heavy.


No wonder he didn't find any gold in his mess. Most of the gold that were dissolved in the beginning would have cemented onto the alloy that were taken away by the filtering and would still be with the solids.
I guess that everyone just assumed that the alloy was a high gold alloy suitable for AR and not made of gold plated objects melted together.

Göran


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