# My first ounce Au!



## philddreamer

I will like to share with you all, a couple of photos of my first ounce of gold refined with the help of all the experts in this great forum. It weighs 32.4gm.
& its from karat, GF & placer gold. For the last couple of months I've been prcticing with the sulphuric cell, AR & HCI-CI methods, & this is the final product. 

Thank you all!

philddreamer

P.S. Now I'm dreaming of a five ouncer... :lol:


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## lazersteve

Looks like a golden eye!

Great Job!

Steve


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## Platdigger

Nice....


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## nickvc

Now thats special and i bet you just love to handle and look at it....I still have the first button that I produced just to prove that I could, it isnt better than 98% but I cant bring myself to refine it again and its 20 years old!


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## Barren Realms 007

Very nice looking, hope you have many more to come.


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## glorycloud

What did you use to melt it and make it so nice and round. 
I have so far been unable to perfect the sphericalness of
your fine button. 8)


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## philddreamer

Thanks Steve, the "Golden Eye" is its name!

Thanks Platdigger!

Nickvc, it is an awesome feeling; the weight, the look... & my wife is convinced that I can do it.  I was planning on selli'n it to start a cash flow, but I'll save it ... :shock: @ least for now. :mrgreen: 

Thanks Barren, amen to many more, I'm already dreaming of the 5 ouncer!  

Thanks glorycloud, I used the melting dish & propane. I went around, many times, smoothing the edges. Then I pulled back the flame slowly 'til it started to solidified. Covered w/brick & allowed to cool for a few min's. Re-heated 'til flux soften. Cooled in water. Mind you, it wasn't that round when I first melted 2 days earlier, needless to say I wasn't to pleased, so did it again!  

Thank u all!


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## butcher

nice I like those big dreams.


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## Anonymous

Really nice, good job. To me it looks like a wild truffle but don't change the name on account of me!


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## philddreamer

Thank you gentlemen!
Don't worry wineguy, I won't be changing the name. :lol:


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## darshevo

That's a really beautiful piece, congratulations!

-Lance


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## shyknee

congrats philddreamer good stuff
now don't change your name from philddreamer to phildrealizer lol :lol:


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## philddreamer

Thank you guys!!!

Last night got a total of 30.5gm 14k for next batch! Yesssss!  

I'm on my way to the 5 ouncer! 8)


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## philddreamer

The "Golden Eye" has a new owner! :mrgreen:


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## dtectr

That's just beautiful, man. given AU's unique properties, i.e. it looks and feels SO GOOD! i believe it was made just for us to appreciate and enjoy. 
o yeah, and ultimately sell for big $$$!!


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## philddreamer

With this 24gm button it's 2.52 ounces. I'm half way to my 5 ounces! Yessss!


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## dtectr

congrats, man. that's beautiful - looks nice & pure, too!
jordan


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## philddreamer

Thanks Jordan!


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## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> With this 24gm button it's 2.52 ounces. I'm half way to my 5 ounces! Yessss!



You are clearly getting better and better at this. This button looks even better than the first. You can see by the pipe, color and texture that its a more pure button. Keep the momentum going!


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## Harold_V

goldenchild said:


> philddreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> With this 24gm button it's 2.52 ounces. I'm half way to my 5 ounces! Yessss!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are clearly getting better and better at this. This button looks even better than the first. You can see by the pipe, color and texture that its a more pure button. Keep the momentum going!
Click to expand...

Funny--- I was thinking the same thing last night, when I first viewed the picture of that button. Very nice looking outcome. 

Harold


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## philddreamer

Thank you gentelmen!

I keep saying it, I have the best teachers!!! :lol: This is a great forum!

Yes, it first went thru nitric, then AR twice & it really shows. I just need more gold, more gold, more gold! :mrgreen: 

All in due time...


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## philddreamer

And another one!  This one is 32gm. It's the 3.55oz marker on my way to 5 ounces.


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## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> And another one!  This one is 32gm. It's the 3.55oz marker on my way to 5 ounces.



Your gonna have a nice chunk of change comming to you when you get to 5oz. Isnt it amazing how that little piece of metal that is not much bigger than the quarter right next to it weighs so much more!?


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## copperkid_18

What are you getting the gold from?


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## philddreamer

Hi cu-kid!
I started by selling the junk I had in my garage; then buying GP & GF. Now I'm buying scrap karat which contains more gold per gram of scrap. Every time I can afford it, I buy a little more gold, & it all starts to add up.

Phil


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## redtogreen

This is really annoying - you have way more than I do.

One can only be jealous 

I will try and post a few pics of my couple of ounces shortly.


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## jimdoc

redtogreen said:


> This is really annoying - you have way more than I do.
> 
> One can only be jealous
> 
> I will try and post a few pics of my couple of ounces shortly.




Everywhere else in the world it is;
"He who dies with the most toys wins."

Here it is;
"He who dies with the most gold wins."

Reality is;
Your kids win in either case, they end up playing with the 
toys and drooling over the gold.
Just have fun.

Jim


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## Barren Realms 007

jimdoc said:


> redtogreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is really annoying - you have way more than I do.
> 
> One can only be jealous
> 
> I will try and post a few pics of my couple of ounces shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everywhere else in the world it is;
> "He who dies with the most toys wins."
> 
> Here it is;
> "He who dies with the most gold wins."
> 
> Reality is;
> Your kids win in either case, they end up playing with the
> toys and drooling over the gold.
> Just have fun.
> 
> Jim
Click to expand...


Or the wife finally gets to play with it.


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## philddreamer

This 35.0gm ingot places us @ the 4.68 oz marker!!! 5 0unces is around the corner. 8)


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## qst42know

That's an interesting variable mold.


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## jimdoc

Phil,
You are so close to your 5 oz goal,and that mold looks like it can open pretty wide.I think your looking to up your goal,if so what's it gonna be 10 oz? Kilo?

Jim


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## Barren Realms 007

Very nice looking. And I like the mold as well.


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## philddreamer

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ...

The sky is the limit!!!!  

Seriously, 10 oz is my next goal. 

My buddy Bill is a retired machinist & I asked him to machine a 1/2" x 1" x 3/8th slot. While @ his shop, he suggested welding sq. bars, & while I was tacking them :idea: taddaaaaa, a sliding mold !  So I gave it a shot & there it is!

Phil


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## Barren Realms 007

I guess it fits tight enough that you don't have to put a c clamp or anything to hold the moving piece when you pour?


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## philddreamer

That's correct. 
I just poured some oil this time, next time I'll use the acet soot & see if that also would help w/ any gold trying to find its way under the sq. bars. Even very hot, it didn't get stuck. I pre-heated on top of my little electric burner on high.

I tried to post this photo earlier, but when I cropped it, it wouldn't load, so
here it is, full size.

Phil


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## butcher

Can mix powdered graphite with oil to a paste the oil will evaporate leaving a graphite coating, NICE work. Keep dreaming big and heavy beautiful bars.


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## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ...
> 
> The sky is the limit!!!!
> 
> Seriously, 10 oz is my next goal.
> 
> My buddy Bill is a retired machinist & I asked him to machine a 1/2" x 1" x 3/8th slot. While @ his shop, he suggested welding sq. bars, & while I was tacking them :idea: taddaaaaa, a sliding mold !  So I gave it a shot & there it is!
> 
> Phil



You are over 90% close to your goal. I know youve got to be itchin' at this point. Would you and your friend be interested in manufacturing a few of those molds? I would be willing to pay for one!


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## HAuCl4

Nice bar and great idea for the "sliding mold"!. 8)


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## philddreamer

Thank you butcher, I owe a lot of my succes to you. I have graphite from weld'n supplies, I'll try that.

Goldenchild, the thought did cross my mind, :roll: I'll contact him, & make a dozen or so I see how it goes. Thanks.

Thank you HAuc14; it's just one of those "accidents". My friend was just using the bar as a spacer when all the sudden :idea: :roll: I said hey, that looks like a "sliding mold" to me. And there it is!  
I'm telling you, we live & learn.

Phil


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## HAuCl4

You will not believe this, but last night I had dreams of this "adjustable mold" of yours, and then it all changed to casting a perfectly "round marble of gold". One I could roll along with me like sisyphus rolled his rock!. :lol: 

How would you guys cast a perfect gold sphere with perfect finish?. Can one be cast, cast and polished, or maybe some other process like machined in a lathe?. What would be the most straightforward way with lowest losses/recycling, etc?.

Maybe using some lost-wax jewellery casting technique?.

The mind, what a marvellous thing! :idea: .


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## philddreamer

That's funny! :lol: 
I can only guess; to machine one it would be time consuming, & a lot of "waste". I think the lost wax method would be the best way to go. Getting a round & making a mold, pouring; polishing. Or melting it in space... :roll: 
That's it! Let's call NASA & suggest they do the experiment!  

Maybe a member here with experience in lost wax could shed some light.

Phil


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## goldenchild

HAuCl4 said:


> How would you guys cast a perfect gold sphere with perfect finish?. Can one be cast, cast and polished, or maybe some other process like machined in a lathe?. What would be the most straightforward way with lowest losses/recycling, etc?.
> 
> Maybe using some lost-wax jewellery casting technique?.
> 
> The mind, what a marvellous thing! :idea: .





philddreamer said:


> I can only guess; to machine one it would be time consuming, & a lot of "waste". I think the lost wax method would be the best way to go.
> Phil




Maybe it doesn't have to be so difficult. My first thought was to build a custom graphite mold. The trickiest part will be getting the sphere to be perfect. But here goes...

Get a perfectly round object such as a ball bearing.

Then 2 identical pieces of graphite. Widdle out a sphere on one piece of graphite using the ball bearing to test against. When half of the sphere can sit nicely in the grahite mold on a level surface, create a channel that goes directly into the sphere. Take measurements from this piece of graphite and replicate. Then clamp them together and pour in molten gold. 

You will of course need to have very precise measurements and cut off the sprue and polish in that area. This is just a theory!


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## Barren Realms 007

If size dosen't matter, look for a mold for black powder round ball ammunition.


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## HAuCl4

Barren Realms 007 said:


> If size dosen't matter, look for a mold for black powder round ball ammunition.



Great suggestion!. Although molten gold is much hotter than molten lead. Do you think they will be ok?.

found this link:

http://muzzleloadingandmore.com/products/accessories/molds_round_balls/index.htm#Lee Round Ball Bullet Molds


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## Barren Realms 007

The molds I used were made of steel, they would hold up to the heat but a diffrent handle arrangment would be needed. After a few pours the mold warms up and you should start getting clean molding with no imperfections.


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## philddreamer

Goldenchild, the graphite mold is possible. The half spheres can be machined on each half, with the pouring hole & I believe will need a vent hole. It would be like the lost wax method. I'll check with my friend Bill to make sure he has the bits, & I''ll order graphite from Steve. You'all have started something here! :lol: I'll make for a good side project. Let's you & I check into that goldenchild.

The lost wax is not out of the equation; need to find more info on how its done. Could you check into that HAuCl4?

Barren's idea of round bullet mold would be the first to be tried. I saw a movie with Robert Conrad where he was a mountain man I the indians had no lead to make bullets, but had plenty of this yellow metal... :roll: 

Since .50 cal is what we are contemplating here, how much gold is that?
About 3/4 of an oz.? This is Barren's homework.  # of lead /gold ratio.

Phil


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## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> Goldenchild, the graphite mold is possible. The half spheres can be machined on each half, with the pouring hole & I believe will need a vent hole. It would be like the lost wax method. I'll check with my friend Bill to make sure he has the bits, & I''ll order graphite from Steve. You'all have started something here! :lol: I'll make for a good side project. Let's you & I check into that goldenchild.
> 
> The lost wax is not out of the equation; need to find more info on how its done. Could you check into that HAuCl4?
> 
> Barren's idea of round bullet mold would be the first to be tried. I saw a movie with Robert Conrad where he was a mountain man I the indians had no lead to make bullets, but had plenty of this yellow metal... :roll:
> 
> Since .50 cal is what we are contemplating here, how much gold is that?
> About 3/4 of an oz.? This is Barren's homework.  # of lead /gold ratio.
> 
> Phil



A 0.50 cal perfect sphere of pure gold will weight 21.24 grams or 0.683 Troy OZ. I like the molds idea better, the lost wax method is rather involved and cumbersome, although one could make any size. The sphere is the shape that maximizes volume over surface area, and gold is very heavy...so the whole thing is completely counterintuitive!. Much heavier than anyone picking it up would think. 

How do you machine the graphite to make the half-spheres perfect?. I think graphite molds would lose the shape very fast, but I digress.


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## qst42know

I came up with 20.710 grams?


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## HAuCl4

Yes. I made a mistake. Just corrected it. I used the diameter as radius and came up with a number 8 times too big!.


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## philddreamer

WOW! That's heavy! 8) :lol: 

OK, now that's more like it, qst42know.


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## jimdoc

That is going to be an expensive hunting trip.
That guy from the bankruptcy story would 
probably like hunting with this ammo.

Jim


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## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> Goldenchild, the graphite mold is possible. The half spheres can be machined on each half, with the pouring hole & I believe will need a vent hole. It would be like the lost wax method. I'll check with my friend Bill to make sure he has the bits, & I''ll order graphite from Steve.
> Phil


 

I think the venting hole is totally correct. If steve doesnt have the graphite then they will definately have it here.

http://www.graphitesupplies.com

Hard graphite is probably best.


qst42know said:


> I came up with 20.710 grams?



If this is correct then you would need about 30 grams anyway in order to partially fill the spouts that would then turn into sprues. In lost wax you always have to use more gold than the needed amount for the piece to account for the sprues. I know this because of my rings  

However... I think a bit more than 20.7 grams would be needed. Take a look at this mold I have. It produces 1,2,5 and 10oz cube ingots. The 1 ounce(smallest square) is 15mm wide x 15mm long x 15mm deep. If you can imagine how small a cube this size is than you can also come to the conclusion that a bit more gold would be needed. 30 grams is surely not enough for a 50 cal pumpkin ball. Im thinking you would need somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3 ounces including the sprues.







Here is the revised mold.


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## jimdoc

Here is another source for graphite;

http://www.graphitestore.com/

Jim


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## Barren Realms 007

On a bullet mold the sprue is cut off when the mold is opened to eject the casting. There is also no secondary vent because after the mold comes up to casting temperature all voids are filled perfectly.


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## philddreamer

Barren, Q's, will gold behave like lead for that all to work the same? Is gold as soft as lead? I know gold is denser. Just wondering.


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## Barren Realms 007

It's not really a matter of gold being as soft as lead. 

It is a matter of getting your mold up to a correct temperature that the gold will stay molten to fill the complete void of the mold.


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## philddreamer

OK. And are we talking a steel mold or cast iron?


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## Barren Realms 007

Steel.


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## lazersteve

I've been using a disc mold like the one goldenchild first posted the drawing of for over a year now. It makes a disc shape ( ~1-1/4" dia x ~1/2" thick) with flat sides. It doesn't have any sprues or vents, but the side are flat not spherical. 







I simply clamp two flat pieces of graphite to the sides of the center piece and cast the silver or gold into the opening at the top. It makes some beautiful ingots. 

Here's a really bad photo I cropped out of my Silver Refining DVD of one I cast in silver recently:







I'm not sure if a spherical shape was a requirement of the original discussion, but the flat sided mold was very simple to make. It's also very fast to empty and refill, making casting multiple ingots very quick. I'm planning on adding a few extra cavities on the block in the photo above to allow me to pour more silver before having to empty the mold.

Steve


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## philddreamer

We are discussing how to make a gold ball, & which method would be more suitable. 
The center piece, is it graphite or steel? Also, what size is the thickest graphite you have? I'll be ordering some for the silver cell, but would like some for machining round molds. 

Phil


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## lazersteve

The thickest pieces of hard graphite I have are around 1-1/2" thick.

The photo is of a graphite mold.

With a good machine shop set up you could align two flat halves that are each drilled out with a half sphere shape, clamp them together and tap the inlet hole for the gold.

Steve


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## chemist

HAuCl4 said:


> How do you machine the graphite to make the half-spheres perfect?. I think graphite molds would lose the shape very fast, but I digress.



Ball End Mill. Sometimes called a ball nose end mill. It's looks like a drill bit, but point isn't a point, it's a half-sphere. They are available in many different sizes.

One example of a source:
http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/ballnoseendmills.aspx


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## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> We are discussing how to make a gold ball, & which method would be more suitable.
> The center piece, is it graphite or steel? Also, what size is the thickest graphite you have? I'll be ordering some for the silver cell, but would like some for machining round molds.
> 
> Phil



How does one machine a spherical or half-spherical mold in graphite or steel?.

I'm thinking that maybe stamping it in a large press is the way to go to make a good finish round ball, but still...how does one make the spherical dice for the press?.

Lost-wax you can make any size, but you need a model that is spherical, probably a ball from a bearing would do. Still how does one machine a sphere for a larger ball?

In lost-wax you'd need to cut and then polish the sprues. And the process is quite lengthy.

edited: I just read chemist's answer. Thanks.


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## HAuCl4

Chemist's answers and drilling half-sphere's into 2 hard graphite molds (as lazersteve and phildreamer suggested) seems the most flexible and straightforward solution, and reasonably cheap, in my opinion. One could even bring the graphite blocks to a friend's machine shop or pay someone to get them made for the appropiate size ball.

Some balls are bigger than others!. :lol:

edit: Actually I don't know who to give credit for the above solution. It seems I was the last to understand how a graphite mold can be machined into half-spheres!. 

Just for fun I calculated what size a 400 OZ good delivery bar would be if shaped like an sphere: It came out as a 4.184 inch "baseball". :shock:


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## philddreamer

Steve, 1-1/2" would be perfect. I'll PM you.
I called my friend Bill last nite, he's a retired machinist, & talked to him about using graphite & if he could machine the mold; he's answer, "get some graphite Phil". :lol: 
So, yes, we'll be using the graphite approach. Goldenchild mentioned the graphite mold first.

Thank you gentlemen!

Phil

P.S. HAuCL4, you & your balls started all of this! :lol:


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## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> Steve, 1-1/2" would be perfect. I'll PM you.
> I called my friend Bill last nite, he's a retired machinist, & talked to him about using graphite & if he could machine the mold; he's answer, "get some graphite Phil". :lol:
> So, yes, we'll be using the graphite approach. Goldenchild mentioned the graphite mold first.
> 
> Thank you gentlemen!
> 
> Phil
> 
> P.S. HAuCL4, you & your balls started all of this! :lol:



Hey!. You are closest to the finish line!. Let us know how you do to "cut and polish" the pouring spouts/vents etc to make sure the sphere doesn't have a bump or dimple and rolls well!.


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## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> Steve, 1-1/2" would be perfect. I'll PM you.
> I called my friend Bill last nite, he's a retired machinist, & talked to him about using graphite & if he could machine the mold; he's answer, "get some graphite Phil". :lol:
> So, yes, we'll be using the graphite approach. Goldenchild mentioned the graphite mold first.
> 
> Thank you gentlemen!
> 
> Phil
> 
> P.S. HAuCL4, you & your balls started all of this! :lol:



For making a sphere on a consistant level I don't feel graphite is the way you should go, it absorbs the heat or transfers it away from your molten metal before it fills the mold. Look at the ingots poured in graphite molds here on the forum, most of them have a deformity of some sort.

Any mold that I have seen for doing work of this kind has been made of steel not graphite.

Here is the desighn of a bullet mold.
http://www.cabelas.com/p-0018790210637a.shtml


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## philddreamer

Thanks Barren!
I didn't find that yesterday when I checked Cabelas. That's good. I'll do the graphite & the steel mold. I'm heading to Ca. tomorrow for the next 2 weeks, & on my way down a drive past a Cabelas & sometimes I stop & dreeeeeeeeeam!. :roll: :lol: 

Phil


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## Barren Realms 007

You can really do a lot of dreaming in one of those stores. 8)


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## lazersteve

philddreamer said:


> Steve, 1-1/2" would be perfect. I'll PM you.



Reply sent.

Steve


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## HAuCl4

In the link goldenchild provided, they sell "half-sphere" molds with extremely good surface finish. They are a bit pricey though, and one would need 2 of those stuck together with a clamp.

http://www.graphitesupplies.com/servlet/the-Graphite-Marble-Molds/Categories


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## philddreamer

Yeap, that would be a nice finish, but drilling thru "marble glass"?
& 1.5" dia., that will swallow a lot of gold! :shock:


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## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> Yeap, that would be a nice finish, but drilling thru "marble glass"?
> & 1.5" dia., that will swallow a lot of gold! :shock:



I think that's just a denomination for the very smooth finish. It's graphite, not glass. And yes a 1.5" ball of gold would be approx. 574 grams.

Better to go with the custom solution of machining your own molds to the adequate ball size. :lol:


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## goldenchild

Barren Realms 007 said:


> For making a sphere on a consistant level I don't feel graphite is the way you should go, it absorbs the heat or transfers it away from your molten metal before it fills the mold. Look at the ingots poured in graphite molds here on the forum, most of them have a deformity of some sort.
> 
> Any mold that I have seen for doing work of this kind has been made of steel not graphite.
> 
> Here is the desighn of a bullet mold.
> http://www.cabelas.com/p-0018790210637a.shtml




I think as long as there is enough gold to completely fill the mold(the sphere part not the sprues) there will be no problem. The deformity will lie in the sprues which have to be cut off and polished anyway. Also keep in mind that lead has such a low melting point that it can stay molten longer than gold which is why those bullet molds work.




HAuCl4 said:


> I think that's just a denomination for the very smooth finish. It's graphite, not glass. And yes a 1.5" ball of gold would be approx. 574 grams.
> 
> Better to go with the custom solution of machining your own molds to the adequate ball size. :lol:



574 grams? That sounds like a bit much. 574 grams is a little shy of 18.5 ounces. Thats enough to make almost 2 10oz square ingots from the mold I displayed. If cut in half a 50 cal pumpkin ball would have the diameter of just a half inch (almost). The 10oz cube in my mold is a 1.25 inch cube. 574 sounds like way too much. How did you come up with that number?


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## philddreamer

I also thought it was too much. 
I also found a couple of things, my 1/2" drumel & a golden sphere that my dad gave me some time ago. The sphere is about 5/16". Most likely its hollow. It only weighs 2.1gm.


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## Barren Realms 007

The sphere looks nice.

The dremel looks dangerous in the wrong hands. 8)


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## goldenchild

Scrolling down I saw the pics and thought you already made one until I read your post. That would have been fast work lol.


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## HAuCl4

I believe I'm doing the right math, but you guys can correct me:

Weight= density x Volume

density= 19.30 grams/cm3

volume of a sphere= (1/3) x 4 x PI x R**3 

(R is radius = 0.5 x Diameter)

1 inch = 2.54 cm

for goldenchild: my last calc was for a 1.5 inch diameter sphere, but maybe I screwed up with the calculator, my eyesight is not what it used to be. :shock:


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## philddreamer

I just finished weighing the product of my latest batch, 25.5gm of gold.
That is 5.5 ounces processed to date. Now, the sky is the limit!  

Thank you all!

Phil


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## Barren Realms 007

8) 8) 8) :lol: :lol: :lol:    :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> I just finished weighing the product of my latest batch, 25.5gm of gold.
> That is 5.5 ounces processed to date. Now, the sky is the limit!
> 
> Thank you all!
> 
> Phil



Can we see the ingot!?


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## HAuCl4

What happened with the sisyphus sphere project?.


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## philddreamer

I wish I could, goldenchild, but I've been selling the gold for cash flow. I've bought lab glass, materials for a small shed, tools, acids, more scrap gold & so on. So, right now I have 25.5gm I just refined thru AR, plus 700gm of GF & GP ready for thr sulphuric cell, from which I expect 10gm or so. I just got back from CA. where I recovered close to 1/2 oz of placer gold. I didn't do better because I didn't take my diving gear with me. I was suppose to do dry digging on a big gravel bar, but met a young fellow who shared some vital info & invited me to dig close to where he was digging. I averaged close to a dwt a day, but the water was cold & over 3 ft deep & after 3 or 4 hrs in it... :shock: So, I plan to return late sept w/wet suit, & give it another shot.

Mach, the project continues. I received the graphite I ordered from Steve & I will be taking it to Bill so he can machine the mold. I'll keep you posted. :lol:


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## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> I wish I could, goldenchild, but I've been selling the gold for cash flow. I've bought lab glass, materials for a small shed, tools, acids, more scrap gold & so on. So, right now I have 25.5gm I just refined thru AR, plus 700gm of GF & GP ready for thr sulphuric cell, from which I expect 10gm or so. I just got back from CA. where I recovered close to 1/2 oz of placer gold. I didn't do better because I didn't take my diving gear with me. I was suppose to do dry digging on a big gravel bar, but met a young fellow who shared some vital info & invited me to dig close to where he was digging. I averaged close to a dwt a day, but the water was cold & over 3 ft deep & after 3 or 4 hrs in it... :shock: So, I plan to return late sept w/wet suit, & give it another shot.
> 
> Mach, the project continues. I received the graphite I ordered from Steve & I will be taking it to Bill so he can machine the mold. I'll keep you posted. :lol:


 
Yea it is awful when that vicious circle of having to spend money to make money occours..... 8)


----------



## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> I wish I could, goldenchild, but I've been selling the gold for cash flow. I've bought lab glass, materials for a small shed, tools, acids, more scrap gold & so on. So, right now I have 25.5gm I just refined thru AR, plus 700gm of GF & GP ready for thr sulphuric cell, from which I expect 10gm or so.



You must have really stepped up your lab glass and materials game with nearly 5k  If you have 700 grams of GF scrap you should get closer to 15 grams of the good stuff. 700 * .05 * .417(assuming its all 1/20 GF and not badly worn).


----------



## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> I wish I could, goldenchild, but I've been selling the gold for cash flow. I've bought lab glass, materials for a small shed, tools, acids, more scrap gold & so on. So, right now I have 25.5gm I just refined thru AR, plus 700gm of GF & GP ready for thr sulphuric cell, from which I expect 10gm or so. I just got back from CA. where I recovered close to 1/2 oz of placer gold. I didn't do better because I didn't take my diving gear with me. I was suppose to do dry digging on a big gravel bar, but met a young fellow who shared some vital info & invited me to dig close to where he was digging. I averaged close to a dwt a day, but the water was cold & over 3 ft deep & after 3 or 4 hrs in it... :shock: So, I plan to return late sept w/wet suit, & give it another shot.
> 
> Mach, the project continues. I received the graphite I ordered from Steve & I will be taking it to Bill so he can machine the mold. I'll keep you posted. :lol:




So, you are going commercial with your refining hobby/business?. How much gold per week do you expect to refine?. Different strokes for different folks, but I wouldn't spend much money in glass and equipment that really isn't needed (unless you really want to) to refine 100 OZ per week or less, that can easily be done in cookware, buckets, etc. Capital must be hoarded and carefully guarded against theft, loss or expense, in a new business, almost like taking care of a newly born baby. You can spend later. Now, if you say that 95% of your gold sales went towards purchasing newly unrefined gold at a discount of 10% or more, I'd applaud!. :lol:


----------



## dtectr

Barren Realms 007 said:


> philddreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve, 1-1/2" would be perfect. I'll PM you.
> I called my friend Bill last nite, he's a retired machinist, & talked to him about using graphite & if he could machine the mold; he's answer, "get some graphite Phil". :lol:
> So, yes, we'll be using the graphite approach. Goldenchild mentioned the graphite mold first.
> 
> Thank you gentlemen!
> 
> Phil
> 
> P.S. HAuCL4, you & your balls started all of this! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For making a sphere on a consistant level I don't feel graphite is the way you should go, it absorbs the heat or transfers it away from your molten metal before it fills the mold. Look at the ingots poured in graphite molds here on the forum, most of them have a deformity of some sort.
> 
> Any mold that I have seen for doing work of this kind has been made of steel not graphite.
> 
> Here is the desighn of a bullet mold.
> http://www.cabelas.com/p-0018790210637a.shtml
Click to expand...

Sorry - i haven't been following this thread so chiming in late on this. please indulge my curiosity - Are we talking about FINE gold for sphere? If too pure, won't the center pipe effect be an issue? An alloy would have less of an issue, i imagine.If an alloy, what karat? In the mid-'80's, we achieved near-perfect pours of intricate detail using a vacuum-assisted casting set-up of my employer's own design (not the little hobby set-ups you see in jewelry mags); not super complicated, but VERY effective. There were actually times that if the wax model was perfectly smooth & the casting grain fresh, an item was merely pickled, clipped, tumbled with clipped wire steel shot & sprue connection finished.

But I digress - As I learned in jewelry model-making days, here on planet Earth gravity pulls all liquid metal, regardless of original shape or perfection of mold, toward earth's center, resulting in a not-perfect sphere. 
So if someone can come _close_ then machining will be an absolute necessity.

One of the first commercial ventures for the space station (talk circa 1985) was to be mfg. of ball-bearings, as they would cast to nearer perfect spheres further from planet core. Less machining, less waste, blah, blah. Of course not practical, but one of those ideas that come up in brainstorming sessions.

Just mt dos centavos


----------



## Barren Realms 007

HAuCl4 said:


> philddreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could, goldenchild, but I've been selling the gold for cash flow. I've bought lab glass, materials for a small shed, tools, acids, more scrap gold & so on. So, right now I have 25.5gm I just refined thru AR, plus 700gm of GF & GP ready for thr sulphuric cell, from which I expect 10gm or so. I just got back from CA. where I recovered close to 1/2 oz of placer gold. I didn't do better because I didn't take my diving gear with me. I was suppose to do dry digging on a big gravel bar, but met a young fellow who shared some vital info & invited me to dig close to where he was digging. I averaged close to a dwt a day, but the water was cold & over 3 ft deep & after 3 or 4 hrs in it... :shock: So, I plan to return late sept w/wet suit, & give it another shot.
> 
> Mach, the project continues. I received the graphite I ordered from Steve & I will be taking it to Bill so he can machine the mold. I'll keep you posted. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you are going commercial with your refining hobby/business?. How much gold per week do you expect to refine?. Different strokes for different folks, but I wouldn't spend much money in glass and equipment that really isn't needed (unless you really want to) to refine 100 OZ per week or less, that can easily be done in cookware, buckets, etc. Capital must be hoarded and carefully guarded against theft, loss or expense, in a new business, almost like taking care of a newly born baby. You can spend later. Now, if you say that 95% of your gold sales went towards purchasing newly unrefined gold at a discount of 10% or more, I'd applaud!. :lol:
Click to expand...


Buisness success 101 rule #1:
*K*eep
*I*t
*S*imple
*S*tupid


----------



## HAuCl4

Yes Barren, KISS. It bears repeating over and over, because it is an easy trap to fall into: One always wants the best equipment, the shiniest glassware, the coolest furnace, etc, etc. When in fact most of the stuff isn't needed to get the job done. I have fallen in that trap before. Lots of time and money wasted that can't be recovered.

Of course, I advocate getting the minimum equipment to perform whatever job safely and satisfactorily, but definitely always look for ways to cut waste and expenses. Business 101 number 1 rule, as you say. Easily overlooked. Rule number 2 is to remember rule number 1. :lol:


----------



## goldsilverpro

HAuCl4 said:


> Yes Barren, KISS. It bears repeating over and over, because it is an easy trap to fall into: One always wants the best equipment, the shiniest glassware, the coolest furnace, etc, etc. When in fact most of the stuff isn't needed to get the job done. I have fallen in that trap before. Lots of time and money wasted that can't be recovered.
> 
> Of course, I advocate getting the minimum equipment to perform whatever job safely and satisfactorily, but definitely always look for ways to cut waste and expenses. Business 101 number 1 rule, as you say. Easily overlooked. Rule number 2 is to remember rule number 1. :lol:



I imagine we all have fallen into that trap. I know I have although I am usually frugal. I once outfitted about 3/4 of the needed equipment for my own refinery out of 3 scrap metal yards. Occasionally I used to visit large electronic firms in the Silicon Valley, some of which had set up gold recovery facilities - especially for cyanide stripping. It was always amusing to see that they had spent at least $100,000 on a setup that I could have easily done for $2000, or less. Different mentality. Just the engineering probably cost $20,000.


----------



## philddreamer

Sometimes when we write, it's hard to convey all the information or communicate all the facts they way we should, but I'm just doing this as a hobby. At first glance, it seems like a made 5,000.00, but the reality is that when I sold the gold, I only got 85% of spot. I bought glass, but not for a full refining lab. I also bought more gold & that in it self is expensive. The nitric was over 300.00 since I had to make an 8 hr round trip to pick up a 15gl case, & so on. There's quite a bit of hidden costs in just about everything we do in life. I'm on disability & I had to use some of the money for paying some bills. So, it's a slow process, but I'm gaining ground. I started with nothing, then sold some scrap cu, alum, steel & with that money I bought GF, GP & GE. I sold more scrap & bought more GF till I had 32.2gm & I sold it & bought karat gold. So, it's buying more gold & tools supplies, & selling, & as long as I have an ounce of refined plus 7 or 8 hundred dollars in my pocket I'm happy with the hobby. :lol: 

I really thank you all for your advised & concern, it shows the quality of members that we have. 

HAuC14, I contacted Bill & next week I'll be dropping the graphite @ his place & he'll be making the mold for the sphere.

dtectr, welcome to the post & thanks for your dos centavos. :lol: 

Phil


----------



## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> it seems like a made 5,000.00, but the reality is that when I sold the gold, I only got 85% of spot.
> Phil



I'm sure you can get better than 85% with several members of this forum. Maybe 98 or 99%. It was more of a general business approach I suggested, not personal, as I know everyone is different.

I'm eagerly awaiting for the "sisyphus sphere". :lol:


----------



## philddreamer

Well, we are one step closer to the "sisyphus sphere".  
I ordered some graphite from Steve, & today my friend Bill machined them for me. This is how the graphite molds turned out. They're 1.25in x 1.25in. The sphere should be 1/2 in. in diameter. So, either later today or early tomorrow I'll be pouring the gold; I have 40gm I just finished refining. I hope I get a solid sphere on the first pour. :roll: 

Phil


----------



## lazersteve

The mold turned out very nice. I guess you have some raw material left over if the blocks are only 1.25", you may even have enough for a second mold. 

I'm surprised you did not include any keying between the two halves of the mold. Keying will guarantee that both halves line up the same every time you put the two halves together. You could still add two or three holes that go all the way through the two halves and insert rods into these through holes to keep the mold properly aligned.

Great work!

Steve


----------



## philddreamer

Thank you Steve!
Bill is recovering from hip replacement surgery & its hard for him to stand for long periods of time, so I had him sq. 3 sides that I will use for alignment, plus the pouring hole, by using a drill bit. I know, a bit crude, but I'll give it a shot. 
Yes, I have graphite left over. I have plenty of silver that I need to recover & refine like you did with the bowl. After the sphere project, I'll be working with silver for a while. 

Again, thank you!

Phil


----------



## HAuCl4

I would have drilled pouring and vent holes only on one half block (top), and have the other just as a half-sphere hole (bottom), but let's see how the sphere comes out!. 8)


----------



## Noxx

HAuCl4 said:


> Now, if you say that 95% of your gold sales went towards purchasing newly unrefined gold at a discount of 10% or more, I'd applaud!. :lol:



I'm close to it! Now @ 90% 

But, unfortunately, I don't buy at that discount...


----------



## Anonymous

My first ounce, a tad over at 1.080 listed on ebay with a buy it now $1200.00 and sold within the first minute.


----------



## Harold_V

HAuCl4 said:


> I would have drilled pouring and vent holes only on one half block (top), and have the other just as a half-sphere hole (bottom), but let's see how the sphere comes out!. 8)


The mold, in order to retrieve the cast item, really should part top to bottom. If it is poured as you suggested, the item can't be removed from the top half of the mold because it is trapped by the sprue. By splitting vertically, with the cavity on center, the mold can be opened. 

Harold


----------



## Oz

This may be the wrong time to say this but quality bullet mold manufacturers (for round ball black powder enthusiasts) make their molds by machining them close, polishing, then stamping the final dimension in a hydraulic press with a hardened alloy ball between the 2 halves.


----------



## HAuCl4

You are right Harold!. It's a graphite mold. I was thinking of a one-time-cast mold, and this is a re-usable mold. My bad.


----------



## HAuCl4

gustavus said:


> My first ounce, a tad over at 1.080 listed on ebay with a buy it now $1200.00 and sold within the first minute.



Gustavus: You are selling your refined gold for way, way, way under the spot price!. :shock:


----------



## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> Well, we are one step closer to the "sisyphus sphere".
> I ordered some graphite from Steve, & today my friend Bill machined them for me. This is how the graphite molds turned out. They're 1.25in x 1.25in. The sphere should be 1/2 in. in diameter. So, either later today or early tomorrow I'll be pouring the gold; I have 40gm I just finished refining. I hope I get a solid sphere on the first pour. :roll:
> 
> Phil



I see my crude drawing took lol. Cant wait to see the sphere.



Oz said:


> This may be the wrong time to say this but quality bullet mold manufacturers (for round ball black powder enthusiasts) make their molds by machining them close, polishing, then stamping the final dimension in a hydraulic press with a hardened alloy ball between the 2 halves.



I think this was discussed earlier in the thread. 



HAuCl4 said:


> gustavus said:
> 
> 
> 
> My first ounce, a tad over at 1.080 listed on ebay with a buy it now $1200.00 and sold within the first minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gustavus: You are selling your refined gold for way, way, way under the spot price!. :shock:
Click to expand...


Why is this way under spot? He sold it at about 98% spot.


----------



## HAuCl4

> Why is this way under spot? He sold it at about 98% spot.



He said he sold 1.08 OZ for $1200. Spot was $1232 yesterday...90.19% of $1232... :shock:


----------



## goldenchild

Are you selling your gold at 100% spot? 98% is excellent.

EDIT

I had a brain spasm. My bad. I was thinking 31.1 and 1.08 were just about the same. 1.08 troy ozt would mean he sold at about 90% spot. Still very good. Thats the most you will get from jewelers.


----------



## HAuCl4

goldenchild said:


> Are you selling your gold at 100% spot? 98% is excellent.



I wish I could BUY at 98%...He said he sold at 90.18%...small amount and all, maybe he had his reasons.


----------



## HAuCl4

goldenchild said:


> Are you selling your gold at 100% spot? 98% is excellent.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> I had a brain spasm. My bad. I was thinking 31.1 and 1.08 were just about the same. 1.08 troy ozt would mean he sold at about 90% spot. Still very good. Thats the most you will get from jewelers.



Really?. Very strange. I could make for a fine life with 100 OZ a month purchased at 90%. Perhaps the 90% price is due to the small amount?. I've never sold any amount under spot to jewellers in my country. Premium sometimes. Never been forced to sell for other reasons like strapped for cash, etc. Jewellers will always pay spot or premium for fine gold, in my experience.


----------



## goldenchild

You may be selling to jewelers that are the end of the line for the gold in that they make their own jewelry. Selling their jewelry at retail will make their profit. In the US we are saturated with places that will buy gold from you which they then sell to refineries. The refineries will buy it from them at 1-2% under spot. So you see if they were to buy at 100% spot they would make no profit. Also keep in mind that when buying unrefined scrap jewelers may buy it for as low as 40% under the scrap's gold content value. Much less if they are thieves and the victim is ignorant to what they have.

The jeweler I am dealing with has a great amount of volume coming in on a daily basis. I would venture to say this is where he makes most of his money. Besides that he does repairs, plating and sells a few finished pieces here and there. His selection was actually quite dismal. 

You could sell to a refinery but as discussed many times on this forum, the refineries will steal your gold and hit you with hidden fees so it about evens out. The reason this jeweler wants to get into business with me is because he suspects the refinery he deals with is stealing his gold and they are family! If you are consistantly getting 100% spot consider yourself lucky.


----------



## philddreamer

HAuCL4 had a dream: 
"You will not believe this, but last night I had dreams of this "adjustable mold" of yours, and then it all changed to casting a perfectly "round marble of gold". One I could roll along with me like sisyphus rolled his rock!. 

How would you guys cast a perfect gold sphere with perfect finish?. Can one be cast, cast and polished, or maybe some other process like machined in a lathe?. What would be the most straightforward way with lowest losses/recycling, etc?."

Sisyphus Sphere is here!


----------



## philddreamer

Here are a few pic's of the sphere. 
Everything went by the book. I pre-heated the graphite mold on a hot plate; melted the gold as usual; poured; opened the mold to look inside & the sphere fell right off. I'm happy with the outcome. :lol: 

And another dream comes true!

Phil


----------



## HAuCl4

Awesome!. Truly beautiful pictures phild. Congrats!.

...but, but, but...It's not a sphere yet!.  

You are definitely lead candidate to win the Sisyphus Award! :lol:


----------



## joem

stunning
I really like it.
It's like a little gold mushroom
excellent job


----------



## goldenchild

I knew it would work. See what can be accomplished when all the members put their ideas and resources into the mix? You should sell that on ebay when its finished. Im sure it will sell for way over spot just because its a sphere. Surely it will make an excellent conversation piece should you decide to keep it. Congrats Phil!


----------



## philddreamer

Thank you gentlemen!
I just wanted to make the mold; & then, see the results of the pouring. I really wasn't planning on polishing & making a piece of jewellry, but now... :roll: 
This one weighs, as is, 22.7gm. After trimming excess, around 16gm? I still have another 18gm left from my 40.7gm a just refined... hmmmm :roll: 
A second sphere? They might sell over spot? Hmmmm. 
I think that I HAVE A ANOTHER DREAM! :shock: 
:lol:


----------



## samuel-a

that is so cool phil.
great job!

some trimming and polishing and your good to go.


----------



## philddreamer

Thanks Samuel!
I went to Jared, & showed the master jeweller the sphere & he was impressed on how round the top is, where the spruce is @. He said to cut the spruce; file down & then polish either with a motor or a tumbler. He said it won't polish like karated would, because 24k is so soft, nevertheless, it would get a nice shine.
So, we'll see where all this will lead to. Very interesting, though!


----------



## samuel-a

philddreamer said:


> He said it won't polish like karated would, because 24k is so soft



well. he is right.

you shold consider alloying it to 22K or 18K 
say 50/50 on the Cu & Ag.

polishing will be better and you might get paid well over spot on ebay.
maybe even mold press some simple designs on the sphere surface.


----------



## philddreamer

I'm seriously considering it.
On my second melt I got a pipe. That's why I'm considering 22k or 18k. 
I asked the jeweller the procedure for making 22k & 18k, & he told me to add the cu & ag accordingly & in very small thin pieces, so the melt is thorough. I'm planning on doing so eventually. 

Phildjeweller... hmmm :roll:


----------



## goldenchild

There are a million other sites with this info but here is something that may help you. http://chemistry.about.com/od/jewelrychemistry/a/goldalloys.htm

I've experimented with blue gold.


----------



## Sodbuster

Phil: 
Clean that up good and then carry it in your pocket every where you go for about a year and see if it don't polish up nice. 
In with your pocket change and keys will give it a peened look. 
That way you can get it out and fondle it at your leasure any time ya want and show it off. 
That looks great, nice job. Now I want one.  

Ray


----------



## philddreamer

Thanks goldenchild! Very interesting. Gold & aluminum... purple. Oh yeah!

Thanks Ray! Interesting thought :lol: . 
They might be coming out in different sizes & colors. Wow! 

I did a second pour & had 2 pipes the size of pin holes. Re-melted it & the third also had a pipe, but @ the base of spruce. I inspected the first pour with a magnifying glass & found that there's also a very small pipe that I couldn't see with the naked eye. I'm considering the alloying in order to get rid of the pipe. This would help, or won't it?

Also, when we pour ingots we don't polish them, do we have to polish the spheres? I guess for some persons yes, for others no.


----------



## philddreamer

This is the second sphere. The pipe can be seen close to the top of the sphere.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

If you could get your mold hotter when you pour that might solve your problem. I ran into these same problems when I cast bullets. The first few did the same as your sphere or it wrinkled. But once the mold reached operating temperature the problem went away.


----------



## philddreamer

I did heat it more every time, but the pipe got bigger on every pour. I even applied the torch to the graphite & ended up with crystals on the top quarter.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

HMMM. OK. It is the shrinkage of the metal. 

I don't know if it would work and not shure if you can do it, but if you could get the temp of your mold above 1500 F the problem might be solved. 

I haven't worked with graphite molds only steel molds. 

Every thing that has been said on the forum by the leaders says that graphite will not heat properly and hold the heat for the pour to fill properly.

what is the weight of the pour? 

I am not even sure if you had enough gold to make a series of pours to get the mold up to temp that it would work. 

I batting 100% for you tho. 8)


----------



## philddreamer

The weight of the pour is 21gm. 

The things I did with the first pour:
1) heated to medium hi for 1hr prior to pour.
2) I had more gold melted & poured.

For the following pours, I cut down the weight of gold so the sprue wouldn't be so long & for easy of filing. 
Added more heat every time & things got worse.

Next time I'll try same steps as first pour. We'll see. Also will try alloying to 22k. It will keep me busy. :lol:


----------



## Anonymous

goldenchild said:


> Are you selling your gold at 100% spot? 98% is excellent.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> I had a brain spasm. My bad. I was thinking 31.1 and 1.08 were just about the same. 1.08 troy ozt would mean he sold at about 90% spot. Still very good. Thats the most you will get from jewelers.



Just need the buyer to anti up on the money.


----------



## butcher

Could oxygen have something to do with the formation of the pipe? 

Silver melted absorbs oxygen and releases it with cooling of the metal, will gold also do this? 

could the heated mold help drive off oxygen?

If so would an inert gas to drive off oxygen help?


----------



## Harold_V

philddreamer said:


> For the following pours, I cut down the weight of gold so the sprue wouldn't be so long & for easy of filing.
> Added more heat every time & things got worse.


You may have just identified the problem. The sprue should remain liquid until the ball freezes. It's purpose is to feed the ball as it shrinks. Greater mass will slow the sprue from freezing rapidly. Super heating the gold will result in greater shrinkage, so that is no a solution in and of itself unless you can keep the sprue molten. You might consider playing a soft flame on the sprue after pouring. 

Harold


----------



## Harold_V

butcher said:


> Could oxygen have something to do with the formation of the pipe?


No. (Pure) gold does not react with oxygen. The problem is obvious---the sprue is freezing before the ball solidifies. It can't draw molten gold, so it pulls a pipe, just as it should. 
Considering the first ball turned out well, it's obviously possible to pour with the existing size of the sprue. He needs to provide greater sprue mass, to retard freezing. 

Harold


----------



## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> The weight of the pour is 21gm.
> 
> The things I did with the first pour:
> 1) heated to medium hi for 1hr prior to pour.
> 2) I had more gold melted & poured.
> 
> For the following pours, I cut down the weight of gold so the sprue wouldn't be so long & for easy of filing.
> Added more heat every time & things got worse.
> 
> Next time I'll try same steps as first pour. We'll see. Also will try alloying to 22k. It will keep me busy. :lol:



The more weight the better, that's why some intricate castings required a centrifuge mold to pour. The more gold you pour the better, you'll get it back!.

Keeping the torch on the molten gold ( on the pouring cone) just as you pour and after can help keep the gold molten in the pouring spout and on the sprue right next to it. This ball is small and it freezes and contracts fast. How many seconds from pouring to solidification?. You must find a way to keep the gold molten on the top a few seconds more, and then there will not be any pipes. :x

If this doesn't help you may need to enlarge the size of the pipe of the pouring spout, so that gold stays molten there a little while longer. The most intricate alternative would be to get a centrifugal casting rig borrowed from a jeweller, or make the pour there.

Sisyphus does not like rolling impure spheres!. Especially up the mountain!. :lol:


----------



## philddreamer

Gustavus, that's very true. I'll check with Steve so I learn the proper steps in order to do so. 
I've found that it depends on how much the buyer wants or needs the gold its what establishes the price. On this last prospecting trip to Ca. I met a couple of fellow prospectors. She works for a jewellery mfg. outfit in San Jose, & the Co. pays her spot for the gold, as is, raw from the river.

Butcher, I gave to all those points some serious thoughts; but recalling some info from posts I've read, I concluded most likely not. The inert gas would cool the mold; yes, a flame for heat'n, on top of the mold would also get rid of oxigen... I tell you, the wheels have been turning :roll: .

Harold, I had a feeling I had figured out the problem, but I needed a second & expert opinion. I will keep all advise in account.

HAuCL4, I thought about the centrifuge & that there is reason for it. 
It freezes almost instatlly, I mean, I open it within 2 min's & it's solid. Other times 5 min's to see if any difference, none, except more crystals! 

Gentlemen, I thank you all!

Phil


----------



## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> Gustavus, that's very true. I'll check with Steve so I learn the proper steps in order to do so.
> I've found that it depends on how much the buyer wants or needs the gold its what establishes the price. On this last prospecting trip to Ca. I met a couple of fellow prospectors. She works for a jewellery mfg. outfit in San Jose, & the Co. pays her spot for the gold, as is, raw from the river.
> 
> Butcher, I gave to all those points some serious thoughts; but recalling some info from posts I've read, I concluded most likely not. The inert gas would cool the mold; yes, a flame for heat'n, on top of the mold would also get rid of oxigen... I tell you, the wheels have been turning :roll: .
> 
> Harold, I had a feeling I had figured out the problem, but I needed a second & expert opinion. I will keep all advise in account.
> 
> HAuCL4, I thought about the centrifuge & that there is reason for it.
> It freezes almost instatlly, I mean, I open it within 2 min's & it's solid. Other times 5 min's to see if any difference, none, except more crystals!
> 
> Gentlemen, I thank you all!
> 
> Phil



I don't know if you want to try this but sometimes the easies things work the best. Build you a bed of charcoal briquets and put the mold in there with a blower on it. When you get ready to pour turn offthe blower and pour you mold. Put something over the holes while heating to keep debris out till you pour.

I have a graphite mold that was used for thermite welding of wire I will have to find it and post a picture.


----------



## edwardbeard

Wow thats great!!


----------



## philddreamer

It's a thought, Barren. Would like to see the pic's. Yeap, there's more than one way to skin a cat! :mrgreen: 

I've also been thinking of fireplace insulation; place the mold on hot plate, wrap the mold w/insulation, place a piece on top that I can remove when ready to pour, & wallaaah! I hope... :roll:


----------



## Barren Realms 007

I don't think a hot plate will get it hot enough but you can try. The insulation is a good trick, or maybe some of the light weight fire bricks. I feel you are going to have to get up to 1,000-1,500 F or higher for this to work.

Brain storm:

If you have some slabs of copper 1/2"-3/4" thick that you can wrap the mold in they might keep it hot enough to make this work. You will possibly have to wrap it all together and put it in a furnace till it glows real good and then pour.


----------



## goldsilverpro

I agree with Harold. Make the sprue hole bigger.


----------



## philddreamer

Hmmm... My first pour was succesfull & I just used the hot plate @ mid-hi & it worked. I did keep my torch on top after the pour for about 30 sec's. 
On the following pours, though, I cranked the hot plate to hi, but I didn't leave the torch on top, fearing that the extra heat was producing the pipe; maybe that's what is making the difference. 
Next time, I'll keep the heat on top after the pour in order for the gold to stay molten in the sprue long enough, for the pipe to end up IN the sprue & not IN the sphere. The fact is, the gold is molten all thru the sphere, except @ the very top. 
I have to try again & I'll leave the heat on top for a little while.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

goldsilverpro said:


> I agree with Harold. Make the sprue hole bigger.



I don't feel that will make a diffrence. The hole in a bullet casting mold is smaller than the one he has in his mold so that when you open the mold it cuts the spru off even at the bottom of the bullet. A bullet has to be correct because some of them you will be putting a gas check on the bottom of the slug.


----------



## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> I did keep my torch on top after the pour for about 30 sec's.
> On the following pours, though, I cranked the hot plate to hi, but I didn't leave the torch on top,



:shock:

AND you poured MORE gold in the first ball, the pouring cone is almost full. It is apparent in the pictures if you are looking!. :shock:


----------



## philddreamer

That's correct, brother. That's why I must try again, following the same steps.


----------



## jimdoc

I was looking to see if they had cases to protect marbles,for those that collect marbles.Like a clear plastic snap together round case,that the gold spheres could be displayed in or made into jewelry(since 24k would be too soft to mount)
Imagine some of these cases filled with your "marbles";
http://www.usadisplay.net/marble.htm
Then there is the mini dome at the bottom of the page,and these;
http://www.usadisplay.net/plexi/plexi-egg-sphere-display.html

Or find one of those pewter wizards holding a crystal ball,and replace the crystal ball with your 24k ball. http://gemsplusonline.com/15411.JPG

Jim


----------



## philddreamer

All very interesting indeed! Thanks Jim!


----------



## philddreamer

I did the pour; It came out very good, only one thing, I need more gold to complete the pour. We need 22gms, minimum, for every pour in order to get rid of the pipe. (I hope :roll: ). I rapped the mold in fireplace insulation; heated the mold on hot plate, on high & sphere came out very smooth.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

There you go just a little paitence is all you needed to figure it out.

Very nice looking.


----------



## philddreamer

The sphere is ready for the tumbler! :mrgreen: 

Now all I gotta do is buy one... :roll:


----------



## HAuCl4

"Introducing: THE GOLDEN MARBLE, a round beautiful marble made of 99.99% pure gold, it is said to be an aphrodisiac almost as well as attract wealth like a magnet attracts iron. Carry them in your pocket, show them to your lady friends, fondle them often with your hands, use them to hit on other, lesser marbles. MSRP: $1,234.56 each. Brought to you by Sisyphus Dreamers, where dreams are big and balls are golden."


----------



## goldenchild

HAuCl4 said:


> "Introducing: THE GOLDEN MARBLE, a round beautiful marble made of 99.99% pure gold, it is said to be an aphrodisiac almost as well as attract wealth like a magnet attracts iron. Carry them in your pocket, show them to your lady friends, fondle them often with your hands, use them to hit on other, lesser marbles. MSRP: $1,234.56 each. Brought to you by Sisyphus Dreamers, where dreams are big and balls are golden."



LOL. I coulndt come up with better advertisement.


----------



## philddreamer

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## philddreamer

This is the site of the mfgr's of the tumbler I'm p-u @ 1pm today. Hope the transaction goes thru so I can finish the sphere. She's asking $75.00, its new.

http://www.dunnstoyandhobby.com/Thumlers_115_ROCK_TUMBLER_A_R2_IN_DISPLAY_p/thu115.htm


----------



## Harold_V

I expect you'll get the best results using stainless steel burnishing media. 

Harold


----------



## Noxx

I second that ^^


----------



## philddreamer

I just got home with the tumbler.

Read both your posts & it was a question I had while driving back home. Now, what is SS burnishing media & where can i get some?

Thank you!


----------



## philddreamer

I found out. 
Which shape is the correct one for polishing 24k sphere? :roll:


----------



## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> I found out.
> Which shape is the correct one for polishing 24k sphere? :roll:



Just wondering. Did you cut off the sprues?


----------



## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> I found out.
> Which shape is the correct one for polishing 24k sphere? :roll:



I believe the smallest stainless steel balls. Don't leave it too long in there!.


----------



## philddreamer

Mario, I did cut the sprue & filed it down the best I could. Hope that the tumbler will give it a better finish. But I'm seriously getting into unknown territory! :shock: 

HAuCL4, I would think so. I started read'n on the subject @ this site: http://cs.artjewelrymag.com/artcs/forums/p/9907/59320.aspx.

I hope Harold or Noxx can shed more light on the subject. It sounds like they have expirience with it. Or some other member in the forum.

I'll also check the instructions that came with the tumbler, there might be some info there.

Thank you gentlemen!

Phil


----------



## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> Mario, I did cut the sprue & filed it down the best I could. Hope that the tumbler will give it a better finish. But I'm seriously getting into unknown territory! :shock:
> 
> HAuCL4, I would think so. I started read'n on the subject @ this site: http://cs.artjewelrymag.com/artcs/forums/p/9907/59320.aspx.
> 
> I hope Harold or Noxx can shed more light on the subject. It sounds like they have expirience with it. Or some other member in the forum.
> 
> I'll also check the instructions that came with the tumbler, there might be some info there.
> 
> Thank you gentlemen!
> 
> Phil



I know you are going to shrivel at this. 

But put a light coat of paint where the spru was and then take the finest wet dry sand paper and smooth it with the sand paper wet till you have a smooth finish. The paint will show the low and high spots. Amn then run in your tumbler.


----------



## philddreamer

Yeap!
You should had seen my face yesterday when I put the file to it!  OOOOOOH did it hurt! Needless to say, I had a small brush & a box where a swept all the filed gold. And now you want me to paint & fine sand it... I otta. :lol: 

You know, the thought crossed my mind; I used to make SS jewellery years ago, & that was they why I put a finish mirror polish on the item. But it hurts just to think to do that to the sphere. We'll see. Let me try other avenues first. 

Thanks!


----------



## lazersteve

I bought a few pounds of mixed sizes of zirconia YSZ grinding media a while back. I put some in a plastic container with a few pieces of gold plated scrap and rolled it around. Within minutes the gold was very bright and shiny. The plan was to grind the outer layer of gold off, but it polished the scrap instead.

Here's a link:

Grinding Media

Steve


----------



## philddreamer

What size was your media, or the one you used on the plated articles? This 24k gold sphere is .5 in. in diameter, what size would you recommend, 5mm?

Thanks Steve!


----------



## lazersteve

I bought two sizes, 1.5 mm (tiny) and 7 mm (small) cylinders (going from memory here), a pound of each.

Steve


----------



## philddreamer

Thank you Steve! 

The one question I forgot, was it wet or dry tumbling?


----------



## jimdoc

Wouldn't regular BB's work?


----------



## philddreamer

According to wiki, the size, yes:
"Modern day BB guns usually have a smoothbore barrel, with a bore diameter and caliber of 0.177 inches (4.5 mm). BB for modern day BB guns are usually steel, plated either with zinc or copper to resist corrosion, and measure 0.171 to 0.173 inches (4.34 mm to 4.39 mm) in diameter."

If push came to shoving, I think so, but the zinc & copper coat might have a neg. effect on the gold??? :roll: Coating it or something. I would like to get it done right the first time.


----------



## jimdoc

Yes,I was thinking they could be stainless and not plated.
But most probably are plated and made as cheaply as they can.
I agree that you don't want anything to foul you up now.

Jim


----------



## philddreamer

You know, come to think of it, they sell SS shots for water fowl hunting, so water is not contaminated with lead shots! :roll: 
I'll check Cabela's.


----------



## qst42know

A fraction of some of the prices I have seen and in 5lb. lots.

http://stainlesstumblingmedia.com/


----------



## goldenchild

I'm thinking you want a media that isnt too big where it will put dimples in the sphere (especially since 24k is so soft) and media where its not so small that it wont do anything. I'd go on the smaller end. After all the sphere is very soft.


----------



## dtectr

A mirrored finish BURNISHING media is what you're looking for. Burnishing doesn't remove appreciable amounts of metal while surface hardening & shining, as opposed to _polishing _which always removes some metal (i don't like the word "polishing" as a process; it means different things with different materials) Burnishing is based on compressing the surface molecules of the material. if done properly, as with the burnished copper curriases (sic) of the Spaniard Conquistadores, the metal will be shined & hardened, but with no PM loss. 

At the relatively slow RPMs of most tumblers, the shape of the medium is less important than the finish. Always tumble wet, & I reccomend using (here it comes) a dash of _Joy_ dishwashing liquid - it acts as a lubricant, keeping contaminants in suspension, while protecting the medium from corrosion. _Dawn_ provides too much wetting action, at least in my experience.

Remember - the finished product will not be shinier than the medium with which it is burnished. So the reccomendation of SS shot is probably best.


----------



## philddreamer

That's a very good site qst42know.

Mario, what would you consider the size, about 2 to 3mm? Steve used 1.5mm (tiny) & 7mm (small), as he stated. It was on plated items, though.

Well, I'll keep researching & learning.  

Dtectr, that aswers the question of wet or dry for the gold & also explains the use of dish detergent on this site, http://cs.artjewelrymag.com/artcs/forums/p/9907/59320.aspx 

Thanks guys!


----------



## goldenchild

7mm seems like it would be too big as its almost half the size of the sphere. I would say smaller than 7mm but this is just a guess.


----------



## Noxx

Dtectr is right,

Put 100-200 tiny SS balls in the tumbler I don't think the size is critical, but I'd go with 2-3mm in diameter. And let run for many hours!


----------



## Barren Realms 007

philddreamer said:


> Yeap!
> You should had seen my face yesterday when I put the file to it!  OOOOOOH did it hurt! Needless to say, I had a small brush & a box where a swept all the filed gold. And now you want me to paint & fine sand it... I otta. :lol:
> 
> You know, the thought crossed my mind; I used to make SS jewellery years ago, & that was they why I put a finish mirror polish on the item. But it hurts just to think to do that to the sphere. We'll see. Let me try other avenues first.
> 
> Thanks!



The idea is to sand gently and that will smooth the sphere and remove the paint. What paint isn't removed this way will come off in the tumbler. If you do this be sure and use a backer block.


----------



## lazersteve

The media I referenced is actually slightly abrasive, like very fine sandpaper.

I used it dry and mixed the two types of media.

Steve


----------



## Noxx

Yes, zirconia can be quite abrasive, depending on the shape.

I have used Alumina balls and that is abrasive too!


----------



## philddreamer

Thank you gentlemen!
Sorry I didn't answer sooner. Hunting season is around the corner & we were making fine tunning of bow & camping gear... :roll: 

But, after learning & understanding the difference between polishing & burnishing, I've choosen burnishing for finishing the sphere; I'll be checking into sites for 2 or 3mm SS balls.

Thank you all for your cooperation! We'll be getting this project done soon!

Phil


----------



## Harold_V

In this instance, using anything aside from stainless will be a mistake, so you've made a sound decision. Your intended purpose is to improve surface finish ----nothing more. Any abrasive media would remove values, which isn't in your best interest. 

The very precise report by *dtectr* is spot on. Follow his advice to the letter and you'll achieve your goal without measurable losses. 

The use of plated steel would serve to contaminate the surface of the ball, including the potential for rusting as the plated coating is worn away. Avoid using anything but stainless for this operation. 

If there's a jewelry supply near you, they may offer stainless burnishing media--it's commonly used to finish bulk jewelry castings. I wouldn't be too concerned about the configuration---it will all perform the required task. Balls may or may not be the perfect combination, although I certainly wouldn't suggest they shouldn't be used alone. 

On the subject of using paint---I'd recommend a magic marker instead---something that dries instantly and still provides the witness mark you require to know when the task is done. 
Needless to say, save all of the waste that comes from the operation, including any paper towels you may use in wiping the ball or your hands. Any gold that is present can be recovered by incinerating the paper and processing the ash. 

Good luck! Sounds like a fun project. I'm very impressed by the quality of the castings you've shown. 

When you've mastered this one, the next thing you may enjoy is casting some pure gold over rock salt. 

Yeah, I know, it sounds crazy, but you'll love the beautiful free form that results. I refer to them as man made nuggets. No need to do anything special---just put the rock salt in a small container, then pour an ounce or slightly more in a common area. It spreads slightly, making a wonderful artistic piece. When it has solidified, soak the lump in water, to dissolve the rock salt. The resulting solution should be sent to the stock pot, to recover any traces of values you'll lose to the salt, which tends to me minimal. Note that you'll see a purple deposit on the salt, an obvious sign of colloidal gold. Regardless of any attempts on your behalf, no two will be alike. 

I made a few when I refined, although I didn't keep one. Lots of fun, and can be easily made into a necklace by soldering a bail to the end. Don't let your wife see it!  You'll lose the gold to her jewelry box. 

Harold


----------



## philddreamer

I thank you always, Harold, for your expert advise! 

I did some research of my own, & from sites that fellow members posted, & the advise from fellow members. We live & learn. I accepted the project to see if I could accomplish it. With all the help that I received from all of you, & some little knowledge & experience I had on the matter, we're getting close to completion. 
I'll be following your advise & use the magic marker & follow the steps that dtectr recommends on burnishing.

I heard about the rock salt from a prospector I met a few days ago, but no details. Thanks for the details; it'll be my next project!  But first, I'm going to try silver spheres! :mrgreen: 

Gentlemen, I thank you all!

Phil


----------



## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> I thank you always, Harold, for your expert advise!
> 
> I did some research of my own, & from sites that fellow members posted, & the advise from fellow members. We live & learn. I accepted the project to see if I could accomplish it. With all the help that I received from all of you, & some little knowledge & experience I had on the matter, we're getting close to completion.
> I'll be following your advise & use the magic marker & follow the steps that dtectr recommends on burnishing.
> 
> I heard about the rock salt from a prospector I met a few days ago, but no details. Thanks for the details; it'll be my next project!  But first, I'm going to try silver spheres! :mrgreen:
> 
> Gentlemen, I thank you all!
> 
> Phil



Pure silver "galls" as it expels oxygen on cooling. Try sterling silver instead.

I have lived vicariously through your "gold sphere dream". I quite enjoyed it. Congrats!. 8)


----------



## goldsilverpro

A jeweler friend makes 24K jewelry and he simultaneously burnishes and work hardens the surface using a small vibratory finisher. The media consists of tiny rod-shaped pieces of metal - stainless, maybe. I don't remember whether it was used dry or if a liquid was also used, but I'm thinking the latter. Whatever, it does a great job. I would imagine all this is available from any jewelry supply company.


----------



## philddreamer

You started the whole thing! It was YOUR dream & my nightmare. :lol: You deserve credit too brother HAuCL4.

The silver spheres I gotta try. The mold is there, so I'll alloy if need be, just like with gold. Even in different colors!  


Thank you brother!


----------



## philddreamer

I buy my supplies @ Seattle Findings, a jeweller supplier in downtown, I'll give'em a call later this a.m.. I forgot all about them! They might have the SS media.

I also read about the vibratory finisher, but the tumbler was available, new, for only $75.00, it retails for $150.00. But it's good to know the vibratory also would work; I wasn't sure, the sites I did research on were talking about sterling, nothing about gold. :roll: 

Thanks GSP!


----------



## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> You started the whole thing! It was YOUR dream & my nightmare. :lol: You deserve credit too brother HAuCL4.
> 
> The silver spheres I gotta try. The mold is there, so I'll alloy if need be, just like with gold. Even in different colors!
> 
> 
> Thank you brother!



Let me just tell you... you would be hard pressed to make anything out of purple or blue gold. These alloys come out brittle like hard candies. They are actully best used as stones in normal jewelry ie. a stone setting. Do a little research on blue and purple gold first. I tried blue once and I quickly saw it was not worth my time. All the other colors are ok


----------



## philddreamer

Hi Mario!
Yea, I'll be trying the different colors, but the blues, purples & dark colors I'm really not too fond of. I don't know how buyers might feel about those colors. I just thought they're strange colors & learning how to make them was interesting, but when you mention the draw back, I'm not trying it, @ least not soon.

But the reds, orange, pink... I was about 9 or 10 when my mom took me to the gold factory where she bought jewellery & a saw a glowin, orange 200gm gold ingot in the mold... :shock: , I tell you, it's still so clear in my mind! To me, from that first impression, that's the color of gold. 
But, we know its true color; & also, to each person, its own. 

Did you ever tried yourself the design of the mold you sent me? And also, the design for your rings? They're unique. Looks like Devo's hats, or somthing... :roll:


----------



## goldsilverpro

philddreamer said:


> I buy my supplies @ Seattle Findings, a jeweller supplier in downtown, I'll give'em a call later this a.m.. I forgot all about them! They might have the SS media.
> 
> I also read about the vibratory finisher, but the tumbler was available, new, for only $75.00, it retails for $150.00. But it's good to know the vibratory also would work; I wasn't sure, the sites I did research on were talking about sterling, nothing about gold. :roll:
> 
> Thanks GSP!


I'm probably wrong, but I would think the vibratory finisher would work better than the tumbler in this instance. Surely, some jeweler on the forum has experience with both.


----------



## Harold_V

HAuCl4 said:


> Pure silver "galls" as it expels oxygen on cooling. Try sterling silver instead.
> 
> I have lived vicariously through your "gold sphere dream". I quite enjoyed it. Congrats!. 8)


He may enjoy success by covering his silver, while molten, with some charcoal. I expect he'll do OK.

Harold


----------



## Harold_V

goldsilverpro said:


> I'm probably wrong, but I would think the vibratory finisher would work better than the tumbler in this instance. Surely, some jeweler on the forum has experience with both.


A great deal depends on the load. I own a vibratory type, used for deburring machined items. It's small, but has pretty decent action when the load is correct. When using the SS charge, the weight could be a consideration, so I'd suggest a tumbler type if there was the least question. One of my customers used to cast silver rings in volume, and used the tumbler type with excellent results. 

Harold


----------



## Harold_V

goldenchild said:


> Let me just tell you... you would be hard pressed to make anything out of purple or blue gold. These alloys come out brittle like hard candies. They are actully best used as stones in normal jewelry ie. a stone setting. Do a little research on blue and purple gold first. I tried blue once and I quickly saw it was not worth my time. All the other colors are ok


While it's true that blue and purple gold lose their ductility, casting them shouldn't be an issue. They would make some pretty balls! 

Harold


----------



## Oz

philddreamer said:


> Yea, I'll be trying the different colors, but the blues, purples & dark colors I'm really not too fond of.


Harold, I can't say I blame him. Who wants to be a blue balled refiner, let alone purple and darker colors.

Sorry, I could not help it.


----------



## Harold_V

:lol: :lol: 

Yeah, Ok! Doesn't sound all that exciting. Maybe even a little painful!

I was thinking now nice a collection of those ½" balls would be, all made in different colors. 

Harold


----------



## Oz

Harold_V said:


> I was thinking now nice a collection of those ½" balls would be, all made in different colors


I have never tried making “colored” gold alloys. I enjoy the art in jewelry that employs a mix of gold colors (such as your Black Hills jewelry) but I have always liked my gold, well, gold. 

I must say though that this thread has tempted me to try it. It does not help matters any that I have a .50 caliber round ball mold for my rifle.


----------



## goldenchild

Harold_V said:


> goldenchild said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me just tell you... you would be hard pressed to make anything out of purple or blue gold. These alloys come out brittle like hard candies. They are actully best used as stones in normal jewelry ie. a stone setting. Do a little research on blue and purple gold first. I tried blue once and I quickly saw it was not worth my time. All the other colors are ok
> 
> 
> 
> While it's true that blue and purple gold lose their ductility, casting them shouldn't be an issue. They would make some pretty balls!
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


Yeah I guess its based on the equipment you have and what you feel is difficult. Purple and blue gold need a vaccum furnace environment to be cast. This is because they are not alloys but are in fact intermetallic "alloys". They never really mix :shock: Whats worse is there isnt much information on the internet about them to research. 

I honestly dont think you would be able to make these spheres out of blue or purple gold. At least not how you made the yellow ones. And if you did you would have to put them in a case for display and forget about them. They are truely brittle. When I "alloyed" blue gold and held it, it had a different texture. I wanted to see just how brittle it was so I took a pair of pliers to it. With minimal force it crushed like rock candy would in a vice. Blue and purple gold are definately for accents not rings/chains.


----------



## philddreamer

I've had a bit of trouble finding the SS ball burnishing media here in the US; plus other situations @ home that have affected my finances, so I'm selling the sphere as is. I'll post in the sell section. 

Sorry I couldn't put the finish we all desired, but there is a next time!  

Phil


----------



## HAuCl4

8)


----------



## philddreamer

Thank you HAuCI4!


----------



## glorycloud

What an accomplishment!! Very nice!!!
I hope that it sells at a great price for you!! 8)


----------



## philddreamer

Thanks Glorycloud!


----------



## philddreamer

Well I didn't sell the sphere @ a great price, but it was enough money to financed my trip to CA. & today my wife & I returned with an ounce of placer gold! 8) 
We spent 2 weeks, great weather an great fellowship with locals miners that pointed us in the right direction. Some pic's.


----------



## goldenchild

Phil. You're hardcore lol. Free gold is the best kind isn't it?


----------



## jimdoc

Phil,
Was that more fun than refining?
It looks like it might be.

Jim


----------



## MiltonFu

Great abs.


----------



## philddreamer

Yes indeed Mario! Free gold is the best,  , its the digging & dragging the heavy buckets out of the hole what gets 'ya. :roll: First day I did 14 buckets! 2nd 18; 3rd 16; 4th 14; 5th 10; 6th thru 10th day 8... :roll: , barely, & brother was I in pain @ the end of each day. I'm trying a gravity dredge next time. I overheard some other local prospectors say that the ban might be lifted, & that dredging could start by next jan '11. I hope so. Mean time, I'll continue buying scrap. 

Jim, I would say yes, though, that it's the bigining part of refining. If I don't find gold I can't refine. So, yes, it makes me very happy!  

Yes Milton, I lost a few more pounds! 8) I was able to fit into the wet suit every day that went by, especially by the end... :roll:


----------



## HAuCl4

philddreamer said:


> Well I didn't sell the sphere @ a great price, but it was enough money to financed my trip to CA. & today my wife & I returned with an ounce of placer gold! 8)
> We spent 2 weeks, great weather an great fellowship with locals miners that pointed us in the right direction. Some pic's.



You are the coolest!. 8) 

tip: next time get in touch with fournines. He'll likely pay you top dollar for your fine gold spheres or other when you can't sell them above spot and need the cash fast. Many members have recommended him. :idea:


----------



## dtectr

philddreamer said:


> Hi Mario!
> Yea, I'll be trying the different colors, but the blues, purples & dark colors I'm really not too fond of. I don't know how buyers might feel about those colors. I just thought they're strange colors & learning how to make them was interesting, but when you mention the draw back, I'm not trying it, @ least not soon.


The jeweller I worked for many years ago made some black gold (gold & iron) by putting new casting grain & pure iron powder in the bottom of a new crucible, hit it with a Tig arc (the inert gas envelope was necessary to prevent the iron from oxidizing before the metals were able to alloy) and gave it a quick stir with a graphite rod. The resulting button was magnetized with a simple electromagnet, sliced in half with a diamond saw, wet, & was actually pretty magnetic. we played around with ideas about magnetic clasps & all, but never really got too much past that initial success.

Oh, & the color was BEAUTIFUL!

I suspect similar problems would arise trying to alloy purple gold (alumunum & gold).


----------



## goldenchild

dtectr said:


> philddreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Mario!
> Yea, I'll be trying the different colors, but the blues, purples & dark colors I'm really not too fond of. I don't know how buyers might feel about those colors. I just thought they're strange colors & learning how to make them was interesting, but when you mention the draw back, I'm not trying it, @ least not soon.
> 
> 
> 
> The jeweller I worked for many years ago made some black gold (gold & iron) by putting new casting grain & pure iron powder in the bottom of a new crucible, hit it with a Tig arc (the inert gas envelope was necessary to prevent the iron from oxidizing before the metals were able to alloy) and gave it a quick stir with a graphite rod. The resulting button was magnetized with a simple electromagnet, sliced in half with a diamond saw, wet, & was actually pretty magnetic. we played around with ideas about magnetic clasps & all, but never really got too much past that initial success.
> 
> Oh, & the color was BEAUTIFUL!
> 
> I suspect similar problems would arise trying to alloy purple gold (alumunum & gold).
Click to expand...


So iron and gold actually makes black gold and not blue. All the information that I read said that blue gold was produced by alloying(intermetallic compound actually) gold with iron or indium. I tried indium and boy was the metal brittle. The literature also said that black gold was created by controlled oxidation or a fairly new laser technique. Something allong the lines where the laser exsposes surface area on the object in a way that it lets all spectrums of light in(obviously producing black). I would like to see a picture of black gold if anyone can find one.


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## jimdoc

Interesting link on the subject;


http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/9.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold

Cobalt-containing alloys, e.g. 75% gold with 25% cobalt, form a black oxide layer with heat treatment at 700-950 °C. Copper, iron and titanium can be also used for such effect. Gold-cobalt-chromium alloy (75% gold, 15% cobalt, 10% chromium) yields surface oxide that's olive-tinted because of the chromium(III) oxide content, is about 5 times thinner than Au-Co and has significantly better wear resistance. The gold-cobalt alloy consists of a gold-rich (about 94% Au) and cobalt-rich (about 90% Co) phases; the cobalt-rich phase grains are capable of oxide layer formation on their surface.[2]


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## goldenchild

jimdoc said:


> Interesting link on the subject;
> 
> 
> http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/9.html
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold
> 
> Cobalt-containing alloys, e.g. 75% gold with 25% cobalt, form a black oxide layer with heat treatment at 700-950 °C. Copper, iron and titanium can be also used for such effect. Gold-cobalt-chromium alloy (75% gold, 15% cobalt, 10% chromium) yields surface oxide that's olive-tinted because of the chromium(III) oxide content, is about 5 times thinner than Au-Co and has significantly better wear resistance. The gold-cobalt alloy consists of a gold-rich (about 94% Au) and cobalt-rich (about 90% Co) phases; the cobalt-rich phase grains are capable of oxide layer formation on their surface.[2]



Covers everything I was talking about 8) Those blue gold hearts are awsome.


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## philddreamer

Thaks HAuCL4! 
But, I'm not the only one, this forum is loaded with cool guys & gals & I thank you all for showing interest in the experiments we've shared, & all your input.
I also talked to fournines, but I've been running around w/hunting & then the trip to Ca, a whole month :shock: , & it takes time to set up the process, fill some forms... but I'll get to it.

The rest of you guys, I don't think I'll be experimenting soon, (thou' tempted  ), with the different colored gold. I'll be working w/gold & silver spheres for a while & then try the fancy colors... :roll:


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## patnor1011

Its interesting but I don't know if its just me.... To be honest - gold for me has to be yellow. I do not even like white or rose gold. That colors should be reserved for silver or copper. My gold must be yellow as a sun...


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## philddreamer

This is the results of my recent batch. After processing some e-scrap & karat scrap & re-desolved my 32.8g of gold powder in Poorman's AR. 

After melting a 32g gold loaf. 8)


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## HAuCl4

"The difference between a dream & reality is, a good plan!" PhilD

"...and execution thereof." HAuCl4

8)


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## philddreamer

This is the latest, 104.6g, about 3.4 0z. From scrap karat gold.


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## Barren Realms 007

Very nicce looking.. 8)


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## HAuCl4

PhilD is growing in size at an exponential rate. 8)


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## goldenchild

philddreamer said:


> This is the latest, 104.6g, about 3.4 0z. From scrap karat gold.



That shape makes me want to take a bite out of it for some reason.


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## jimdoc

It looks like a brownie,but its a goldie.
It probably tastes like chipped teeth.

It does look good.

Jim


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## philddreamer

Thank you guys!

goldenchil wrote:
"That shape makes me want to take a bite out of it for some reason."
There's a chocolate mint that comes in a golden wrap, that's what it reminds me of.  

Yeap, a bite would surely leave a "mark"!

HAucl4 worte:
"PhilD is growing in size at an exponential rate. "
Well brother, I am trying! :mrgreen: I met a young man in PR that buys gold down there & started selling it to me. Today he pick up more than 30dwt of 14k.
So needless to say, I'M EXCITED!!! :lol: 

Frank, what's the weight of that shiner? 8)


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## Barren Realms 007

5.2 oz. It looks rough because my tourch started running out of fuel when I was finishing the melt. I ended up using the mapp gas tourch and the B-tank at the same time to get enough heat to finish it. I almost didn't take a picture of the beast. 8)

And congrats on the new line of buisness hope it blossoms for you. 8)


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## HAuCl4

You inspire my current signature PhilD!. 8)


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## hfywc

philddreamer said:


> This is the latest, 104.6g, about 3.4 0z. From scrap karat gold.



hi philddreamer.

very nice!!! did you use an adjustable cast for this one? really makes someone's day.

thanks 
alan


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## philddreamer

Hi Alan!

Yes, I used the adjustable mold. I don't know if you've seen it in some of the other posts, but here's another pic.
After pouring this 3.4 oz ingot, I realized that a 10 oz ingot can be done with ease, & then some. 

Thanks!

Phil


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## philddreamer

Just want to share a pic of some diamonds from the scrap that I've bought thru the months. I've save all the stones, but I took all the clear ones & had them check & these five where diamonds & the ring is 14k with 22 diamonds. I almost refused it, 'cause I could not find a stamp. I did the stone test & it was + for 14k, so I took the chance. I'm glad because, I paid them 90% for their scrap. 8) 

Phil


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## Barren Realms 007

Do we need a maginfying glass to see them or have you taken them out of the ring? 8) 

Nice looking


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## philddreamer

They are in the ring. The lady that tested them said its a vintage ring, its an old way of setting stones & that they don't ussually set like that anymore.
That's why I was hesitant, it looked fake, like if the stones were glued. But after cleaning & testing it, the jeweller said its the real thing. 
You should have seen the look on her face. I asked her: "how much she thouhgt it could be worth, she said no comment; go get it certified... then you'll know".
I have more than 3 dozens, most are CZ's, about 1 dozen moissanite & those on the pic. 

I'll try to take another pic of the ring.


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## Barren Realms 007

You might want to put that one on fleabay then and take a chance on it.


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## philddreamer

"You might want to put that one on fleabay then and take a chance on it."
Quote Barren Realms 007 

Only if I want my legs broken!!! :shock: My wife was with me when I was told those were real diamonds. 

:lol:


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## Barren Realms 007

AHH well then if you give her a present I bet she will give you one in return. :mrgreen: 

What is it with guys that they can't keep a secret from thier better half. :roll:


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## dtectr

philddreamer said:


> They are in the ring. The lady that tested them said its a vintage ring, its an old way of setting stones & that they don't ussually set like that anymore.
> That's why I was hesitant, it looked fake, like if the stones were glued. But after cleaning & testing it, the jeweller said its the real thing.
> You should have seen the look on her face. I asked her: "how much she thouhgt it could be worth, she said no comment; go get it certified... then you'll know".
> I have more than 3 dozens, most are CZ's, about 1 dozen moissanite & those on the pic.
> 
> I'll try to take another pic of the ring.



Older diamonds were "old Mine" cut, the stones had large tables, shallow pavillions, fewer facets, and were therefore less "bright". Further, pave' settings. where the piece appears to be "paved" with the diamonds, offered greater protection, but again, didn't really show off the stones.

The more modern "Brilliant" cut has a deeper pavillion, smaller table, more facets & culets (in fact the true "Brilliant" cut has 58 facets in all). Yellow gold doesn't really highlight the brilliance of the diamonds as well as a white metal, i.e. white gold (developed as a replacement for platinum after it became more scarce during WWI), silver or platinum, which is why some jewelers still rhodium plate the inside of a yellow gold setting, even if it is to be pave'd to enhance the diamonds.

Diamonds have a property, the exact name for it escapes me, if you were to put a single tiny spot of oil anywhere on its surface, eventually it would spread to cover the entire stone with a even layer, even if it were only microns thick, the layer would be of equal thickness consistently. which is why diamonds need to be cleaned regularly if you wish to display its beauty at all times.

its kind of funny - we are very careful to test our gold, but we forget to test stones sometimes!


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## philddreamer

Wow! Thanks for the information. Very interesting indeed. 
Needless to say, I'll be paying more attention on the stones from now on. I thought that diamonds would most likelly be on 14k yellow gold, but what you explained makes sense. Also, I've read it before, here on the forum, "don't destroy the jewellery 'til you find out if its worth more than the melt value."
We live & learn!

Phil


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## philddreamer

I haven't been updating the posts because I've been melting my gold & shipping it; I get 95% regardless if it is refined or not. I've also been buying silver & doing the same. But like I posted before, "don't destroy the jewellery 'til you find out if its worth more than the melt value", I've been "practicing what I preach".
So instead of melting an 18K/Pt with diamonds that was a bit beat up, I brought it in to my gemologist & she had it refurbished for me. I had plenty of small diamonds & had her mount the one that was missing, a good buff & now I have a nice wedding band. I had lost mine to a pawn shop more than 25 years ago. :roll:

Thank you Gold Refining Forum!

Phil


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## element47

Looks great! That must be exciting. Congratulations!


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## philddreamer

Thanks Element!
It's exciting indeed, & again, I thank the members of this great forum for sharing their knowledge & expertise, thus helping me make "my dreams" come true.

Here is a pic. & another example: I didn't like the color of these 2 "14K" rings from Mexico. After testing, I knew they were better than 10K, but less than 14K.
I did a search on the net to learn if there is such thing as a Mexico 2 Pesos gold coin. They matched all the descriptions given on different sites, so, that made me again very happy! 8) 
From the yield, the rings were 11.5K.


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## samuel-a

dtectr said:


> its kind of funny - we are very careful to test our gold, but we forget to test stones sometimes!



Amen.

I have chipped quite a few diamonds, and probaly will in the future by the lack of proper gemology knowledge.


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## philddreamer

Yeap! Same here... I learned to best let them be. :lol: 
After testing with my DiamondNite; if they're genuine & over .2 carats or so, I take them to the gemologist. If the quality is good, then I'll proceed accordingly.

Here is another example: It turned out to be Pt & a .5ct diamond by White Brothers. Much more valuable than I ever dreamed... :shock:


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