# Silver Cell for Dummies.



## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

Why silver cell is unique compared to conventional electrorefining cells like copper or gold ones?
Every other cell operator aim for dense and well adhered cathode deposit.


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## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

There are two types of electrical conductivity.
Metallic conductivity and electrolytic conductivity.


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## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

Attraction force between oppositely charged particles is inversely proportional to the square of the distance.
It's a kind of a chain.


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## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

What is the majority of energy applied is coming to?
Net energy balance for Ag on the anode and the cathode is zero.


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## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

The Ohm law says: I=U/R


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## johnny309 (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes ...the OHM law...is I=U/R,voltage has the simbol "U"...and this is international.
So...how to grow more crystal in less time?
Let's think.....mmmm......I know.... :lol: 


.

To charge a Pb battery you will do an electrolisys procedure......

To have many Amps per hour you will need a greater surface....
So...the rule is the same here ...in silver cell.....do not increase the voltage(it will give you dirty crystals)....just increase the size of the cell,the anode and the cathode.


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## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

Unfortunately at the cathode we have not only one reaction:

Ag+ + e = Ag


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## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

For voltage drop 1volt per 10mm of electrolyte @18deg Celsius the ionic speeds:

K+ = 0.00669mm/sec
H+ = 0.03415mm/sec
NO3- = 0.00640mm/sec


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## amesametrita (Feb 12, 2013)

One solution is to periodically add some HNO3.


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## butcher (Feb 13, 2013)

amesametrita, 
Very understandable and well written, I like this explanation, it makes sense, If I understand one part of this you are adding a nitrate salt to move electrolyte, replacing mechanical stirring, or where mechanical stirring would not normally be used or would cause problems.

Thank you for taking the time to write this out in simpler terms, where us cell dummies can benefit.
I do not completely understand some details of this but I can see the overall picture.
Reading the article GSP posted on the other thread, and reading what you have written here, I am getting a better Idea of what you have been talking about.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

Let's investigate WHY contaminants deposit on the cathode.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

There are some technologies against it like solid bottom of the bag, sucking solution from the bag to make counterflow etc.
They all work for Moebius cells only.


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## Drimacus (Feb 13, 2013)

I want to maximize the life of the nitric acid electrolyte, so will be using silver anodes of at least 99% purity. It would also be desirable to minimize electrolyte decomposition by parasitic reaction as discussed in part 6. My question is, will reducing the current/amperage help to minimize the formation of nitrogen oxides?
Also, in the Moebius patent US532209A of 1895 the electrolyte used is a strong acidied solution of potassium or sodium nitrates. Why this and why has it fallen out of favor? Just curious.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

The only contaminant I'm afraid of in a silver cell is Tellurium.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

*to be continued*

First I'm going to answer the questions in this tread.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

butcher said:


> If I understand one part of this you are adding a nitrate salt to move electrolyte, replacing mechanical stirring, or where mechanical stirring would not normally be used or would cause problems.



This are two different concepts.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

Drimacus said:


> I want to maximize the life of the nitric acid electrolyte, so will be using silver anodes of at least 99% purity. It would also be desirable to minimize electrolyte decomposition by parasitic reaction as discussed in part 6. My question is, will reducing the current/amperage help to minimize the formation of nitrogen oxides?



It will help.


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## kadriver (Feb 13, 2013)

This is one of the best descriptions of the inner workings of a silver cell that I have seen.

Thank you for all the insight. I had no idea all these other things were taking place, just like Darwin could never have known the complex inner workings of the cell (like we know them today) when he wrote "The Origin of Species".

You have explained it all and I have learned new things from your post - and if buthcer is sold on the validity, then so am I.

Thank you!

kadriver


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

Nothing about electrochemistry here. Just rules of thumb for maximum profit.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

I can't see any reason for electrolyte reconditioning when dealing with low grade feedstock.
It's just economically unfeasible.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

I'm not going to copy it to the Part 14 here.


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## Lou (Feb 13, 2013)

Silver oxide method is eerily similar to one Metalor uses...


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

Lou said:


> Silver oxide method is eerily similar to one Metalor uses...



Because there are no secrets in electrochemistry.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 13, 2013)

Amesametrita,

Thank you for taking so much time to share this information with us. I understood part of your first post as being somewhat of a breakdown cell. I have done the math as well and have similar plans to stretch my nitric acid. But I got totally lost when you started talking about adding KNO3, NaNO3, or Cu(NO3)2. I just didn't see how that could help. Now that you've explained the mechanisms at work I can better understand your first post.

Thank you for sharing this.

Dave


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

All that madness repeated 2 times produces 999999ppm silver.
It's 1 gram of impurities per 1000 kg of silver.


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## amesametrita (Feb 13, 2013)

Anything left unclear?


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## Palladium (Feb 13, 2013)

The man has put a lot of effort into this thread.


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## Lou (Feb 13, 2013)

Mhm, he did a good review of things but some things remain not addressed; no suggested solution for Pd or the chalcogenides, Te, Se (that's why an oxidizing melt is important!).

Unfortunately, while there are no secrets in electrochemistry, there are secrets in process chemistry.


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## butcher (Feb 13, 2013)

amesametrita, 
I must admit your work in this thread has put a whole new light on the way I was seeing things, I did not understand your first post or the goal, completely, (my judgment also had tainted my view) I also was not considering working with dirty solutions electrolyte solutions or impure anodes as an effective recovery method, (besides what I have learned here on the forum), but from what I have read lately and your well written thread, I feel a bit more opened minded on the idea, and other possibility’s.

I have tried some trials similar to what your discussing in experiments, and had decided in my mind that the best thing this was good for was to break down the metal to powder, as I had not separated metals effectively in the experimental trial cells, and in the end I had to use other methods anyway, to separate and recover and refine the metals, so in the end of those failed experiments, I did not save any work, or acid reagents in the long run, with what I had tried, (my lack of education, and failed attempts painted one picture in my mind, on that subject).

The way I am seeing this at this point is that it could be viable, but also it still looks like a juggling act to keep everything balanced, at this point it looks like I would need to learn juggling to do any good at it. :lol: 

I also must admit I see you, and your intentions in a whole new light, I was suspicious, from your first post where you stated you wished to challenge conventional thought of the forum and its way of thinking, I guess I have let the actions of others who came here before you, who were doing that, taint my view (those who did not know what they were talking about but gave the impression that they new everything and were an authority on the subject, and seemed to be using their knowledge for less than honorable intentions, constantly challenging conventional methods or science), and when I did not quite understand where you were leading or completely understand it , I became suspicious of your intentions, and read what you wrote with suspicion instead of with an open mind as I should have had..

You have given me a new respect for what you, and what you have to say, and I will look at it much differently now.

I do apologize, as I see now I have judged you and your first posts wrongly, You seem to know what you are talking about, and your discussion of the science involved does make sense, and you do bring up some very interesting and good points to the table to think over, I do feel like I could learn a lot from your discussions, and I also feel you have challenged my thoughts and conventional thinking and you are making me want to look more at it, and read it more in a different light. 

Thank you again for doing the work you have done here, I could follow most of it, some of it still a bit unclear, I will have to do more study to understand it completely, I have printed this thread out and will review more to try and get a better understanding, I do not know I will run out a build a dirty silver cell anytime soon, (but then again who knows, :lol: maybe after I get a little more education on the subject, I may try it again.

Thanks again for your work here, and opening my mind, I also hope you accept my apology, and you feel welcome here on the forum, I will also look forward to reading more of your interesting posts.


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## g_axelsson (Jun 2, 2015)

This thread was heavily edited by amesametrita, removing most of the very good information he shared here. Luckily FrugalRefiner had made a copy of the thread and so the good part of this thread can now be found in the library at

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=22409

Thank you Frugal, that was a very interesting thread. I never saw it before it was edited so this was all new for me. Great work!

Göran


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 2, 2015)

Thank you my friend! 

Amesametrita made some other good posts that unfortunately, I don't have copies of. GSP discovered he had edited many of his posts. I was fortunate that I had followed this thread as he shared it, and copied it into my own notes. I missed one post, but there's a lot of interesting information for those interested in silver.

Dave


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## Research135 (Jul 25, 2015)

amesametrita said:


> I'm not going to copy it to the Part 14 here.



Where is part 14 ?. Not in the library section!. Thanks.


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## Eamonn (Jul 26, 2015)

Is anyone else have trouble understanding what on earth is being explained in this thread.
Is there another therad, refered to, that would make things clearer.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 26, 2015)

Eamonn said:


> Is anyone else have trouble understanding what on earth is being explained in this thread.
> Is there another therad, refered to, that would make things clearer.


Eamonn, unfortunately, amesametrita deleted most of his posts in this thread a few weeks after he made them. Since I found the material interesting, I had copied the posts before he deleted them. I restored all but one post in the Library thread with the same name, Silver Cell for Dummies.. It may make a lot more sense. Sadly, I did not make a copy of his "Part 14", which was posted in another thread.

Dave


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## popslab (Nov 13, 2022)

amesametrita said:


> Why silver cell is unique compared to conventional electrorefining cells like copper or gold ones?
> Every other cell operator aim for dense and well adhered cathode deposit.


I am great full for the explanation i am understanding the process much better. Question what happens if you use highly contaminated silver? Instead of nearly pure silver.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 13, 2022)

popplaysgold said:


> I am great full for the explanation i am understanding the process much better. Question what happens if you use highly contaminated silver? Instead of nearly pure silver.


Do not double post. I deleted your other post.
What happens, is that the electrolyte gets contaminated much faster and needs changing unless the deposit will get contaminated.


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