# Simple VS Complex Gold Salts



## Dr. Poe (Jan 19, 2012)

I've stated several times that complex gold salts have a negative charge and therefore plate onto the positive electrode. I've also stated that simple gold salts will plate onto the negative electrode. What if the two were mixed?
In the case of gold chloride (Au2Cl6 and acid gold chloride (HAuCl4), the difference starts with the addition of hydrochloric acid. For normal plating, only a small amount of hydrochloric acid is added for conductivity. The salt is mostly Au2Cl6 which hydrolyzes to Au+ and Cl- . The gold having a positive charge is plated upon the cathode (negative electrode). The chlorine having a negative charge is released upon or attacks the anode. The small percentage of acid gold chloride migrates to the positive electrode where it decomposes and then redissolves into gold chloride (Au2Cl6) . A continuous circle is maintained until all the gold is plated upon the cathode.
However, if the ratio of molecules of HCl and of Au2Cl6 is equal, HAuCl4 is the only product and totally plates on the anode. The hydrolysis of the salt is H+ AuCl4- . Hydrogen is released at the cathode and chlorine is released at the anode where gold is decomposed. Part of the gold redissolves into the chlorine where it mixes with excess HCl available and returns to the anode again to decomposes into gold and chlorine.
So to clarify; Where HCl is low, plating occurs on the cathode. Where HCl is high, plating occurs on the anode.
In the case of alkali complexes of gold: Hydrolysis is Na+ Au(S2O3)- where hydrogen and sodium is plated or released on the cathode and the complex negative gold anion is decomposed by the anode.
In commerce, the plating of gold chloride, if a mistake is made and too much HCl is added to the solution, only hydrogen is evolved at the cathode and chlorine at the anode until enough hydrogen escapes the solution then the monovalent gold chloride (AuCl) is formed at the anode, mixes with HCl forming HAuCl+ which hydrolyzes to H+Au+ and Cl-, the gold migrates to the cathode where it deposits. In most all alkali complexes of gold, the gold is within a negative anion and hydrolyses to alkali+ and gold anion- where gold is deposited upon the anode.
In all alkali complexes of gold, the gold reacts as an acid, attacking the anode. If it were not an acid, how could it form stable salts with alkali? A simple rule is to expect simple compounds of gold to build up on the cathode.
Complex gold salts give up gold to the anode. Dr. Poe


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## Lino1406 (Jan 20, 2012)

'While I pondered weak and weary' through the lines,
I reched an assumption you refer to gold coming out 
by reduction of complex ions by primary ions as H (or K, or Na) which
is the classical way of explaning gold plating from complex
ions. However, it will always emerge in the cathode. One
difference though - the concentration of complex gold ions
will be the lowest near the cathode.


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## Lou (Jan 20, 2012)

Lino,

That was one of the best and most appropriate Edgar Allen Poe references I've ever seen. Damn--you are a genius.



and Dr. Poe,

Au2Cl6 is a dimer (actually a member of some polymeric gold halides) that exists in the gaseous phase more than anywhere else. It's still gold (III) though, NOT gold (I).

Your musing is confusing!

What experience do you have with Wohwill cells? What makes you think there's a 2 e- transfer instead of 3 e- at the cathode? Why do you think the (oxidized) gold is acting as an acid to attack itself? Is it because a plain hydrochloric acid solution will not plate gold but instead requires HAuCl4? Indeed, if you put a gold anode and a titanium cathode in that solution and apply potential, you get chlorine and hydrogen. The chlorine, however, dissolves the gold.

You need to hit the books on HSAB and Lewis acids to understand why AuCl3 likes to be HAuCl4.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 21, 2012)

Lou said:


> Lino,
> 
> That was one of the best and most appropriate Edgar Allen Poe references I've ever seen. Damn--you are a genius.
> 
> ...


I know perfectly well the actions of HCl upon gold anodes under voltaic pressures. Try lecithin by mouth once a day. Within 21 days you should see improvement. Dr. Poe


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## Lou (Jan 21, 2012)

Well you don't know perfectly well about gold hydrometallurgy and that's where we have a problem. Thanks for the medical advice Dr., but let me quip back:

"The chlorine having a negative charge is released upon or attacks the anode"

Chlorine is a neutral molecule, I presume you mean chloride anion.

You don't define what you mean as an acid, leaving me to presume you speak of Lewis acids. Anyway, we'll never see measurable AuCl3 or Au2Cl6 in ANY hydrochloric acid solution, given that it will be rapidly protonated and coordinated to give chloroauric acid. Even then, that's situational.

If you want to discuss the electrochemistry of gold refining, then that is well and good but I ask that you stick to the science and leave the lecithin supplements out of it.

Anyway, can you at least clarify what your questions were or what exactly the aim was?


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 21, 2012)

Lou said:


> Well you don't know perfectly well about gold hydrometallurgy and that's where we have a problem. Thanks for the medical advice Dr., but let me quip back:
> 
> "The chlorine having a negative charge is released upon or attacks the anode"
> 
> ...



I believe if you would do the complete formulations without omitting normally canceled radicals you might just recognize an internal circuit separate from the straight DC and maybe not need intelligence boosters. Your grade-B+. Try for an A+
Dr. Poe


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## jimdoc (Jan 21, 2012)

Dr Poe,
Is it possible that you are hooked on intelligence boosters? You should look into that possibility before your head explodes. Were you so smart that you skipped kindergarten and never learned how to play nice with others?

Jim


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 21, 2012)

jimdoc said:


> Dr Poe,
> Is it possible that you are hooked on intelligence boosters? You should look into that possibility before your head explodes. Were you so smart that you skipped kindergarten and never learned how to play nice with others?
> 
> Jim


Actually, I attended college, grade school and high school simultaneously. I started research into solid rocket fuels at age 12.
Recess is over. Time to learn something. Dr. Poe


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## patnor1011 (Jan 21, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Poe,
> ...



With all due respect Sir. This is not nuclear science or some university forum... You will get more listeners helping with processes used by members and not with this kind of language you use. I would like to remind you that many members are highly educated in many different areas. Have respect to everybody here is the only way to earn respect from others.


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## Geo (Jan 21, 2012)

Dr. Poe,

i respect your knowledge and appreciate any and all help you can provide.having said that, please try and understand that a large percentage of readers here have none to very little chemistry background and some of the equations and formulas that you speak of can only be discussed by a select few on the forum.this nether helps nor hinders the majority of readers who come here to learn but seems to me that in all the pissing contest you have been in, the main part that sticks out is your need to establish yourself as the smartest person on the forum.this is my opinion. your knowledge has never been questioned as far as i know, just the techniques involved in some cases.if there was one request that i could make of you, it would be to dummy it down so the rest of us can participate in your discussions.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 21, 2012)

Geo said:


> Dr. Poe,
> 
> i respect your knowledge and appreciate any and all help you can provide.having said that, please try and understand that a large percentage of readers here have none to very little chemistry background and some of the equations and formulas that you speak of can only be discussed by a select few on the forum.this nether helps nor hinders the majority of readers who come here to learn but seems to me that in all the pissing contest you have been in, the main part that sticks out is your need to establish yourself as the smartest person on the forum.this is my opinion. your knowledge has never been questioned as far as i know, just the techniques involved in some cases.if there was one request that i could make of you, it would be to dummy it down so the rest of us can participate in your discussions.



That's easy: Gold plates upon the positive electrode in an alkaline sodium thiosulfate solution. Dr. Poe


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## butcher (Jan 21, 2012)

Dr. Poe,

I have found this document, I have not studied it yet, I just glanced through it, in doing so I did see something that supports your theory that gold can sometimes plate to the anode, I will study it more and see what conditions are and so forth.

There is no doubt you’re a smart man, that has never been a question for me, my question has been are you stating accurate information (especially when it may differ from what we study), what has been your motive, is it to disrupt the forum and confuse, or is it to help.

I learned a long time ago the higher you climb the further the fall, and pride has a way of tipping us and making us fall.

We as a group need to understand you, and know you are one our side, also your attacks on our professional members, I think needs cleaned up, yes your motive was questioned, as with any of us here it may be, this is a community and its survival depends on its members.

No matter how smart a member is, the forum can get along fine without him, If you’re here to honestly help, and spread accurate information I think we all here like having your help, and if you toned down your pride we all would like to have you as a friend.

I have not written this as a threat, or to make you angry, in fact I see where you can be a very valuable asset to the forum, and can be a very valuable member, but remember we are a team, and we all must be team members and get along to help each other reach that one goal, and help to keep our beloved forum the best place to learn, and help each other.


http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/port/papers/Modern%20Electroplating/04.pdf

here is another I will read.

http://researchrepository.murdoch.edu.au/672/2/02Whole.pdf


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## Palladium (Jan 21, 2012)

Yeah well i have a feeling if he keeps kicking Lou it won't be much longer before he finds himself booted. I've tried to hold my tounge myself, but he's really getting on my nerves with that attitude of his.


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## its-all-a-lie (Jan 21, 2012)

Why is it, every thread i go to read, someone is picking on Dr. Howser. I would like to quote the Dr. if i could, and this appeared on the forum from thin air. "Assumptions are the monkey wrench in the works of science. One particular assumption mistake is made by 
experience professionals as well as the novice. That being redox potentials or the electromotive series.
They assume that the electromotive series is unchangeable and applies to all situations and corrosives. This is a 
mistake. Although seldom differed by more than one place, there are extremes as well. Take the case of silver 
which unites with sulfur so readily that it corrodes faster than copper, zinc and even iron from sulfurous gases 
present in the atmosphere. Such an incorrect assumption that the electromotive (redox) series is un-alterable is the 
state of mine that hinders innovations and new creations. Dr. Poe" :roll: My question is this, Where does this stuff come from? I do not in any way make claims to be the smartest individual in the world, especially in the field of refining prescious metals, but i would love to learn everything i can without the needless distractions posed on threads without meaning (or so they seem). posts like this make me think i am on the gameshow "JEAPORDY" where the host reveals an answer and inturn you give the answer in the form of a question. I am more confused now than when i started reading here on the forum and in Hoke.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 21, 2012)

I hope that all this is not just sort of subliminal mind massaging of members, to establish some sort of professional credibility before starting to offer some "innovations and new creations" for sale.


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## Smack (Jan 21, 2012)

I feel more like I do now then when I got here. So I guess I'll leave and take my Ego with.


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## charities (Jan 22, 2012)

I am the smartest. I am grasshopper. Grasshopper say " TO LISTEN IS POLITE TO BUMP GUMS IS A SIGN OF ARROGANCE AND NO CONFIDENCE IN ONES SELF", SO IF YOU WANT TO ATTACK AN INDIVIDUAL FOR TRYING TO EXPLAIN THE WAY THAT PERSON UNDERSTANDS WHAT HE OR SHE IS SAYING. IF YOU AS A INDIVIDUAL CANT TAKE THE HEAT THEN GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN. DR.POE IS A GREAT TEACHER! IF YOU STOP AND THINK BEFORE ATTACKING WITH YOUR SO CALLED INTELLIGENCE. YOU MIGHT CONTINUE TO LEARN FROM LIFE. OR YOU CAN JUST FIGURE IT OUT ON YOUR OWN. WE ALL ARE MEMBERS TO LEARN FROM ONE ANOTHER... ROBERT THE NOOB KNOWS- THAT WITHOUT INDIVIDUAL UNDERSTANDING THE WORLD MAY NOT EXIST- SO IF YOUR WANTING TO BELIEVE THEN BELIEVE. IF NOT HOLD BACK PERSONAL FEELINGS AND LISTEN. PEACE LOVE AND E-CYCLE!


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## charities (Jan 22, 2012)

EVERYBODY NEEDS TO STOP CRYING AND REMEMBER NOBLE METALS IS WHAT WE ARE ALL AFTER. :mrgreen: I KNOW I AM THE SMARTEST. ITS SATURDAY,RELAX AND ENJOY LIFE.


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## jimdoc (Jan 22, 2012)

We can relax and enjoy life after you edit out the all caps. Or you may become the latest booted member.

Thanks Gr asshopper
Jim


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## Lou (Jan 22, 2012)

I won't boot someone over caps but I will when they post a bunch of intentionally obfuscatory musings at random and refuse to clarify what they were discussing. I disagree with the veracity of some of Dr. Poe's science. I can disagree on that and not have any personal issue. If he can support his position in the discourse I (and others) expect from a PhD ostensibly in geoscience (??), we have no issues.

He's the scientist and expert. I'll treat him as such from now on so he will be held to a higher standard, as authorities must be.

My experience is this: experts make mistakes. Also, since SOMEONE had to act Taoist and bring out the grasshopper remark...a true expert in a subject will never declare himself to be so. An expert is what others call that person and is a title earned from other experienced/knowledgeable individuals in the field in appreciation of membership.


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## Harold_V (Jan 22, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> I believe if you would do the complete formulations without omitting normally canceled radicals you might just recognize an internal circuit separate from the straight DC and maybe not need intelligence boosters. Your grade-B+. Try for an A+
> Dr. Poe


*One more smart remark from you, good Dr., and you're going to find yourself on the outside of this forum, perhaps looking in. It's up to you. 

I demand that you show respect to readers, but even more importantly, to Lou, who has earned his through hard work and dedication, along with keeping those of us, who lack his education, on the straight and narrow path. 

You clearly do not play well with others. That is not going to be tolerated. 

Harold*


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## Harold_V (Jan 22, 2012)

charities said:


> EVERYBODY NEEDS TO STOP CRYING AND REMEMBER NOBLE METALS IS WHAT WE ARE ALL AFTER. :mrgreen: I KNOW I AM THE SMARTEST. ITS SATURDAY,RELAX AND ENJOY LIFE.


Lose the caps.

Harold


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 22, 2012)

There is one thing that I have learned about self proclaimed "experts": They are usually experts in f... all. :shock:


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 22, 2012)

Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to start a controversy.
Maybe I need to learn to have respect. Maybe others that don't understand should ask for more information without adding degrading marks and ridicule to their questions. Maybe it's their intention to try and chase away threats to their crowns or territories by goading one into a discourse, hoping that anger will swell, remarks made to instigate an ousting. Dr. Poe


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 22, 2012)

butcher said:


> Dr. Poe,
> 
> I have found this document, I have not studied it yet, I just glanced through it, in doing so I did see something that supports your theory that gold can sometimes plate to the anode, I will study it more and see what conditions are and so forth.
> 
> ...



Richard,

In that first link (good article, by the way), can you point me to the page that you said indicates that gold can be deposited at the anode? I was unable to find it.

Chris


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## Lou (Jan 22, 2012)

Dr. Poe wrote:
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to start a controversy.
Maybe I need to learn to have respect. Maybe others that don't understand should ask for more information without adding degrading marks and ridicule to their questions. Maybe it's their intention to try and chase away threats to their crowns or territories by goading one into a discourse, hoping that anger will swell, remarks made to instigate an ousting. Dr. Poe


I'll certainly level that I've not been very nice to you in this post. Simply put, I don't understand what the post was about--it didn't make clear sense to me why it was posted or if it was a question or just a statement. I am confused by why you'd post it in the format you did. It's clear to me you know quite a bit of science, but your presentation and delivery are poor. I see now that you weren't trying to discuss a Wohwill cell of any sort (something which I think we should discuss, even though it's impractical to most here due to expense).

The article that Butcher posted is effectively a much more in-depth discussion of what you were talking about with most of the explanation for plating behaviors in the text.

At the risk of sounding like der English Nazi, please try and be as clear as possible when you post.

You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. 
- Albert Einstein


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 22, 2012)

Dr.Poe,

I must admit that I'm much more interested in results than theory. Keeping this in mind, can you provide a step-by-step (1., 2., 3...) setup and operation procedure, with no theory, that would help prove your point that gold will deposit on the anode from a thiosulfate solution. By anode, I mean the electrode attached to the + lead from the rectifier or battery. In other words, something practical that anyone could follow and be able to duplicate your results. I know you did this somewhat at first, but most of your writing requires a lot of "wading through" to get at the meat. It would also help if you used more paragraphs.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 22, 2012)

Lou said:


> Dr. Poe wrote:
> Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to start a controversy.
> Maybe I need to learn to have respect. Maybe others that don't understand should ask for more information without adding degrading marks and ridicule to their questions. Maybe it's their intention to try and chase away threats to their crowns or territories by goading one into a discourse, hoping that anger will swell, remarks made to instigate an ousting. Dr. Poe
> 
> ...


It all started with the Ferrell's steel anode and cathode. They were trying to up grade from steel wool cementation. I stated that the gold would plate upon the anode. Then the brains had a stroke. Not possible they wrote, total BS, your integrity is in danger they wrote. Yet none of these brains could grasp a simple interaction between electroplating and cementation.
When the rules of cementation supersede the rules of electrodeposition. No, I don't recognize the authors of those books, reports and PHD depositions as having superior experience to mine. In 2010, I critiqued a refining book that was very informative and correct in almost everything. They made one mistake in the entire book. That mistake would have cost the lives of everyone entering the room within seconds. Their mistake was to print chlorine when the correct answer was bromine. It was referring to cyanide leaching. Their fatal mistake was in not understanding that chlorine combines with cyanide and vaporizes at room temperature. Had they used bromine, they wouldn't have put instant death into the room's atmosphere. So false humility from me is an evil thing. Whenever I give further information, it should be digested, tested
before rebuked. If the rebuke come, then let it be civil and leave out the comments like 'BS'. Everyone knows what 'BS' means and that it certainly is an invitation to a dispute. Dr. Poe


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## qst42know (Jan 22, 2012)

Most of the chem speak went right over my head.  Though I did understand the insults from all sides.

I would ask why a reactive iron anode was used in the first place. :?: Isn't it usual and customary to select inert materials for both anode and cathode to keep things simple and predictable.


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## Lou (Jan 22, 2012)

I've used chlorine to destroy cyanide in basic solution:

http://www.nmfrc.org/bluebook/sec623.htm

You must refer to the interaction of dry chlorine with dry cyanide. Bromine also produces a poisonous compound, although cyanogen bromide is a solid not a gas. In any case, I'm interested in knowing which refining book this was.


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## butcher (Jan 22, 2012)

"In that first link (good article, by the way), can you point me to the page that you said indicates that gold can be deposited at the anode? I was unable to find it." GSP

http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/port/papers/Modern%20Electroplating/04.pdf


Chris, what I thought I saw when first scanning the article was not what I thought it was after reading it more closely, I still have not had time to finish studying as I have been busy working.

actually I have been trying to find something to support Dr. Poe's statments, that metals of gold or salts of gold plate out on the anode, 

when scanning the article they were talking of :
Quote article paragraph:
The potentials for reduction of Au(III) to Au, and Au(III) to Au(I) (as shown in table 4.1) are important because Au(III) can also be used as the source of gold in baths in place of Au(I), 
and Au(III) can also be formed at the Anode during plating through the oxidation of Au(I).

after closer reading I see they were not talking about any gold or salt depositing on the anode (as far as I can tell), but they were speaking of the gold in solutions changing oxidation states (still in solution) (exchange of electron but not plating out),( is the way I read that).

I still need more reading of the article, but all tht I can find so far, including this article says that gold (missing one or more electrons, in these electrolytic baths (will not deposit to the anode as salt or gold), but that it plates out at the cathode where it gains electron, or electrons from the power source.

GSP if you look at the table 4.1, of all of the different gold electrolytic baths, every one of them gain electrons, (which can only happen at the cathode),(the catode supplys fresh electrons from the power supply), most all seperate the gold from the anions and plate out gold as metal at the cathode, the half reactions one's at the bottom of the table suggest not getting all of their electrons and remain as salts or compounds, (I do not know and will study more to find out, if these would plate to cathode), ( I feel they would remain as salts in solution and plate out the gold later as in the half reations listed above these, in the table 4.1)

here is something to consider, a battery has a positive pole and negative pole.
we call these terminals a specific name using the terms anode and cathode.
when actually the battery polarity is switched depending if we are discharging the battery or charging the battery, but we do not chage the names of these poles, and of course the electrons flow opposite directions,and so on,I am still just wonder if all of this is just a confusion of what name to call what pole.

I have done much studying in electronics and battery's (many years) , and in the last few years electrochemisty of seperating, salts and metals or production of chemicals in cells, and I have to admit it can be very confusing to keep track of it (it can be a very confusing subject at times), then Mr. Poe says some things that start making me doubt what I thought I know, or if there are other conditions that I have not heard of where things may differ, I want to learn the answer to this question, and I am like a hound dog when I get on a trail of questions, I will not give up easily till I find the answers, or drowned in trying, even if the ole coon (elusive answers to my questions) I am after tries to hold this ole dogs head underwater.

Dr. Poe can you produce something written (book, science papers, studies) that state where the gold plates out to the anode as metal or salts (more than just a temporary deposition), is this just a rare occurance, or commonplace, in any of these solutions? Is this just a rare occurance? or commonplace? I am interested in facts, and this fact I have not been able to find yet, and do wish to know the truth even if it is not what I believe it to be.

but I have to say, I have never met you face to face, so I cannot just believe something because someone I have never met say's it is so, especially when it is polar to the way I learned it.

edit non working link to document in discussion.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 23, 2012)

butcher said:


> [we call these terminals a specific name using the terms anode and cathode.
> when actually the battery polarity is switched depending if we are discharging the battery or charging the battery, but we do not change the names of these poles, and of course the electrons flow opposite directions,and so on,I am still just wonder if all of this is just a confusion of what name to call what pole.]
> 
> Butcher, you might just have nailed down the reason for the controversy. In plating, I use a car battery charger.
> Good work, Butcher. Dr. Poe


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 23, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > [we call these terminals a specific name using the terms anode and cathode.
> ...



Dr.Poe. Welcome to the forum!


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 23, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> There is one thing that I have learned about self proclaimed "experts": They are usually experts in f... all. :shock:


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## Lino1406 (Jan 23, 2012)

I repeat: gold will emerge in the cathode. No principal difference
between Au(CN)2- and Au(S2O3)---. The naming of poles is
opposite for battery (which normally discharges) and
electroplating (normally 'charged').


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## AlZabrisky (Jan 23, 2012)

patnor1011 said:


> I hope that all this is not just sort of subliminal mind massaging of members, to establish some sort of professional credibility before starting to offer some "innovations and new creations" for sale.


I assume the confusion is over.
More importantly, I am concerned about the consequences of the "confusion". Was the forum a victim of an effort for some to advertise their "expertise" with purpose to profit from those with limited knowledge of the unique science of gold extraction and gold metallurgy? Any form of solicitation should be keenly examined and treated with utmost caution. Remuneration is usually a function of what one does or did, and certainly not what one CAN or WILL do. During tense economic situations, poor decisions could be made with hope for riches or financial relief.
I caution all members, there is no substitute for proven science and technology, anything beyond could be labelled "magic" or as some might say, "witchcraft".

Dr ALZabrisky.


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 23, 2012)

This thread is hilarious, but to truly appreciate the humor, one must know what an anode is. I'm sure that's not covered in any of the chapters of Dr Poe's $10 Million book.:lol:


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## AlZabrisky (Jan 23, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> This thread is hilarious, but to truly appreciate the humor, one must know what an anode is. I'm sure that's not covered in any of the chapters of Dr Poe's $10 Million book.:lol:


 :lol: 
Returning my copy for a full refund + shipping, handling and insurance.
Will wait for the edited version.

Dr AlZabrisky.


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## rusty (Jan 23, 2012)

AlZabrisky said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is hilarious, but to truly appreciate the humor, one must know what an anode is. I'm sure that's not covered in any of the chapters of Dr Poe's $10 Million book.:lol:
> ...



I'll settle for what Dr.Poe is willing to contribute freely to the forum.


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 23, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> Try lecithin by mouth once a day. Within 21 days you should see improvement. Dr. Poe


Try not to overdose Dr.! :lol:


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 23, 2012)

Concerning the battery charger thing. I must admit that, in dealing with electrolytic systems for 45 years (daily for at least 20 of those years), I've never used a battery charger. I always used plating rectifiers. I may be dense, but I can't see any difference in the marked polarity on a battery charger than that on a plating rectifier. Many of you have used battery chargers, mainly for the sulfuric cell. Did you hook the lead marked positive to the gold plated parts? Did the gold strip? If so, the positive on a battery charger is the same as the positive of a plating rectifier or battery.

Dr.Poe,

As is yours, my main purpose on this forum is to teach. However, due to my attachment to the members of the forum, my 2nd self-appointed purpose is to help protect them. I do what I can to keep them safe and from wasting money. I also search out untruthful statements and try to nip them in the bud. This vast PM subject is difficult enough without creating confusion. 

The confusion over the question of, "where is the metal from a negative complex deposited - cathode or anode", still exists. You say anode and most of us say cathode (what if I am right about the battery charger?). I will try to convince you otherwise.

At least once, you said that the gold from a complex negative ion would deposit on the anode and that a simple positive gold ion would deposit on the cathode. Do you still believe this? I can't see that the marked polarity of a battery charger would alter your statement. You are saying that these 2 types of ion species are plated on different electrodes. Wouldn't this infer that, if you had gold and, say, nickel, in a chloride matrix, you would deposit gold (complex negative ion) on the anode and nickel (simple positive ion) on the cathode, simultaneously?? Wouldn't that be a wonderful way to separate metal alloys. Just pick the right solution and you've got a little refining machine. Surely, Wohlwill would have discovered that immediately and his first patent would have been totally different. 

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Metals always deposit on one electrode only, the cathode, no matter what the ion polarity is. Negative ions migrate to the anode but they don't deposit there. To deposit metal, anywhere, the negative ions must somehow be constantly replenished in the cathode film. This is done by mixing (stirring, pumping, heating, u'sonics, etc). It is also done by having a high concentration of metal in the solution. The anode and anything touching it is under a constant, strong, oxidizing pressure from the power supply, which overcomes the reduction needed to deposit metal. However, when you turn the power supply off, the gold would now be able to be reduced and could quickly cement onto the steel anode. Maybe, that's what you and the Ferrells are seeing.

According to Modern Electroplating, the following metals are commonly plated from negative complex ions - Au, Ag, Cu(CN), Zn, Cd, Sn, and Cr. Nickel and copper(acid) are often plated from simple positive ions. In every case, all are plated on the cathode, ONLY.


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## AlZabrisky (Jan 23, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> Lou said:
> 
> 
> > Dr. Poe wrote:
> ...



Dr Poe,

Please identify the above mentioned "Refining Book".
Thank you.

Dr AlZabrisky.


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## Palladium (Jan 23, 2012)

While I do enjoy a good discussion or a debate the thing that bothers me most about the good doc is not his technical expertise but the way that his persona seems to be disrupting the everyday operations of the forum. I don’t think there is a time I haven’t logged in this week and seen something crazy concerning the good doc or what he has posted. Don’t get me wrong here I’m all for the doc or anybody else for that matter posting information to help the forum. What I am against is the disruptive behavior his attitude seems to bring out not only in him but the rest of us as well. Had this been a business his disruptive attitude would have called for his expulsion or reprimand immediately. He’s received several of those already it seems to no avail. I can understand what seems like his need for acceptance by his peers, but like Lou stated that is earned and not just given based on your brain size. I’ve heard the good doc state several times about this impressive resume but have yet to see anything that would prove the such. Theirs no doubt he might be a smart fellow to some degree but the brain power it takes to decipher his ramblings are just as well spent reading from proven authorities on the subject. He seems to have pulled us into his little realm of craziness and just the fact that I’m having to write this proves my point. I could be answering someone else’s thread who really need my help and needs it in layman’s terms. I reckon that all I got to say about that, for now.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 24, 2012)

Well I give up! not in what I know is true, but in trying to convince you guys of anything. I thought it would bring some peace to give a little bit. Not with you guys. It just doesn't help. Believe what you want to believe. I was hoping my statement to Butcher might just cool you guys down a bit. It didn't happen. Remember the Ferrells? They used a steel electrode for both the cathode and the anode. Yeah that's right. And the gold plated upon the anode just like I said that it would! Not a single one of you has reported an experiment to verify or debunk my statements. Not a single one of you 'mockers' has reported an actual recent thiosulfate leach reduced by electrolysis. None of you have even tried to understand the intersection of cementation to electrodeposition. You all seem to be stuck on the word 'reduction'. Well excuse me! Reduction occurs at the cathode as we all know. I said 'plate', and 'deposition' and never claimed that the gold was reduced by the anode, no not ever!
You all seem to believe that chlorine, Cl2, oxidizes gold. No, it doesn't. Cl-1 or Cl-3 does, but Cl2 reduces gold by cementation. And furthermore, the attraction of any loose particle of gold is to the anode. I'm only writing this post for the benefit of those that really need to know, and are watching. If they want further instruction, my Google e-mail is available to them. As for you mockers, Harold has forbidden expression. Dr. Poe :x


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## butcher (Jan 24, 2012)

Dr. Poe,

I feel you have become a very smart man, studying hard to learn what you have, and you also have shared your hard earned Knowledge with us here on the forum, many of us here do not have the years of schooling you do, I for one barely graduated High school, and would not have if the teachers did not just keep passing me to the next grade (probably just so they would not have to deal with me), I could not read and comprehend the words I could spell out when reading, when I finished school, it was only later after school that I learned to read, and I spend countless hour studying many subjects now, not to become smart, but because a subject interests me and I get a question and want to know the answer.

When you tell me you have a PHD and are a Dr. with credentials to teach at a university, and much of what you teach here at the forum has a base in true facts, but then sometimes stated in a confusing matter to me, or then sometimes a line in their is polarized to what I have learned, it makes me not only confused, but also questions the intent, I can deal with it, if knowing it is not intended for any harmful purpose or to gain financially, or to purposely confuse members,

Here on the forum we have many members, we all come to this university to learn, when you state you are a Dr. and know something we expect that information to be correct with out confusion, here on the forum it is different from other university's, we are all teachers, and all teachers are also students, not like a college university where you may have to believe a professor just because he said it is so, or that he thinks or remembers it this way, and are not allowed to clear up the facts or debate his teachings, here it can be up for question.

I know from learning nobody will remember everything they have studied, nobody will know everything or every detail about a subject, there is just too much in many of these area's, we can all be mistaken with facts as we think we know or remember them, we all are human.

But I also expect a teacher here on this forum (new member to professional) to be willing to say when he believes it to be so, or that he see it this way, or if he knows for sure it works this way, states so, and if he teaches something, and is questioned on the facts tries to give proof of facts, without trying to confuse the person just trying to learn, or to be so pride full in his credentials to not admit he is human and can be wrong in the way he seen it or confused somewhat himself, or whatever.

Dr. Poe I must say I do respect you, not for your vast knowledge, but for sticking in here, you have been questioned and run through the grinder here, in a way I feel bad about that, as I have been a big part in it, that was not my intent, I just want to know your an honest man with honest intent. That I still have questions on that and probably will until I have something to show me your honor, we cannot meet each other face to face and look each others eyes, when we speak, we really do not know each other, we have little besides what we post to go by who we can trust, and I want to be able to trust every member here, I do not know if it is pride in your hard gained knowledge you are defending, or if you just believe it so strongly, or what. But you do have a very vast knowledge, and you should be respected for that, and you should not be questioned on your intent.

It is my hope if you are an honorable man with good intentions that you are given the opportunity to prove it, and that all of us members will just back off and give you the chance you deserve to do so, but as you know with so many cats a rat does not have a chance here in this cathouse, I am not calling you a rat.

Dr. Poe I Hope we become good friends and assist each other, and can learn to trust each other as we share what we have learned.

I am backing off and giving you room to teach, please make it clear and understandable.

GSP, the positive of a battery charger is no difference than a DC power supply (or DC plating rectifier) or a battery positive post, when hooked up to an electrode of a cell, they all make the anode of the cell electron poor (where oxidation occurs),as you well know from your many years of professional experience in the plating and recovery and refining industry.


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 24, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> ...As for you mockers, Harold has forbidden expression. Dr. Poe :x


I went to buy a flask of lecithin, but someone had cornered the market... :lol:


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## AlZabrisky (Jan 24, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> > ...As for you mockers, Harold has forbidden expression. Dr. Poe :x
> ...



Chill.
Enough.
Harold??

Dr AlZabrisky.


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## niteliteone (Jan 24, 2012)

AlZabrisky said:


> Chill.
> Enough.
> Harold??
> 
> Dr AlZabrisky.



I second this motion

Tom C.


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## publius (Jan 24, 2012)

All in favor say aye...

Aye!


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 24, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> Actually, I attended college, grade school and high school simultaneously. I started research into solid rocket fuels at age 12.
> Recess is over. Time to learn something. Dr. Poe


Surely you guys can appreciate, by now, that Dr. Poe is a jester. If you aren't convinced then go and look up his claim of his $10 Million book...with secret knowledge...

The most appropiate course of action is to continue to laugh as loudly as possible, and to move this thread to the bar and grill section of the forum. :lol:


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## rusty (Jan 24, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I attended college, grade school and high school simultaneously. I started research into solid rocket fuels at age 12.
> ...



FYI the forum software has a friend or foe feature, if your not pleased with someone add to foe and get on with life.


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## samuel-a (Jan 24, 2012)

Cl-3 ??

Is that possible ?


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## Lou (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't think so. You can have I<sub3>{-} and perhaps bromine do the same thing.

Let's let Poe alone. As long as he doesn't post blatant misinformation. I wouldn't call chlorine a reducing agent (but it can be, i.e. fluorine acting on it). 99.999+ cases, chlorine oxidizes gold.


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## Harold_V (Jan 25, 2012)

I have made no secret of my lack of education. That applies, in particular, to chemistry. Not even in high school. 

There may be something about this entire matter that is escaping me---but from my vantage point, what the good Dr. is saying is that there can be deposition on the anode under certain circumstances. He then proceeds to discuss steel as the anode. 

Duh! Is anyone really surprised at his claim? After all, isn't that how we recover values in the stock pot? Doesn't steel (iron) cement gold? Isn't that exactly what he's been saying? Why should gold NOT deposit there? 

Please---whoever understands this -----please straighten me out. Right now, I'm getting the feeling that the problem, here, is that terms are not being expressed such that the layman, a moron such as myself, for example, can understand what the hell is being discussed. The good doctor could do himself, as well as the majority of the readers, a favor by simply speaking in terms we could understand. 

Poe is wise to observe the admonition to lose the antagonism and personal attacks. That goes for everyone, by the way. 

A point I'd like to make is that we can confront issues without confronting individuals. From my vantage point, the moment the attack turns to the person instead of the topic, the attacker has lost the battle. If your beliefs can't be supported by fact, tearing down the reputation of the opponent shows your defeat. I witnessed that very thing when the issue of lifters in a ball mill was being discussed. There, an opinion was expressed as fact, and when that didn't fly, comments turned to personal attacks. That's what losers do, not what winners do. 

Stick to the topic at hand, and avoid personal attacks. State facts as such, and state when something is your OPINION. That would help keep things a little more polite and friendly, leaving the door open for corrections without the antagonism. 

Harold


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## qst42know (Jan 25, 2012)

> the positive of a battery charger is no difference than a DC power supply (or DC plating rectifier) or a battery positive post, when hooked up to an electrode of a cell,



Not all battery chargers produce a flat line DC voltage. It really depends on the rectifier circuit design. Pulsed DC does charge a battery and may even be desirable for charging but might change things in a plating or electrolysis application.


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## butcher (Jan 25, 2012)

> the positive of a battery charger is no difference than a DC power supply (or DC plating rectifier) or a battery positive post, when hooked up to an electrode of a cell,





> Not all battery chargers produce a flat line DC voltage. It really depends on the rectifier circuit design. Pulsed DC does charge a battery and may even be desirable for charging but might change things in a plating or electrolysis application.


 
True not all battery chargers produce a flat line DC voltage.
It is DC rectified (single diode {half wave},or 4 diode bridge rectified{full wave}), (rectified current, Direct Current, one direction only) there will be ripple current, unless the battery charger, or power supply uses filter capacitors. (Simple battery chargers do not need filter capacitors), many other types of supplies use filter capacitors to smooth out this ripple (or bumpy line) to give a flatter DC line with less ripple) But this is still direct current (current flow in one direction only), (so electrons flow only one direction).

There are also pulsed power supplies, that are purposely pulsed current, these can have a duty cycle (on off cycle), most of these still put current flow in one direction (electrons only flowing in one direction (strictly DC).

There can be special power supplies that use a pulsed current with a duty cycle which actually change polarity (current flows most of the time mainly in one direction and reverses a very short period of time in the opposite direction), these are some times used in the plating or refining industry to keep unwanted metals in solution from plating along with the metal they are trying to plate out of solution. (or used to keep anode clear of passivation layer that may build up on them (like if some silver was in the mainly gold anode)

Also power supply’s or battery chargers can be built for different purposes,

Constant voltage, and variable current power supply,
Here the voltage is regulated, and current can vary.
This is what the lead acid battery chargers use, to charge the battery’s cells.
A lead acid battery changes resistance from when it is discharged, to when it is fully charged, (notice the ammeter on your charger is high current flow on a discharged battery, but the amperage falls as the battery is charged).

Constant current and variable voltage power supply,
Here the current is regulated and voltage can vary.
Nickel cadmium batteries have to be charge with this type of power supply

There are also other types of power supplies like switching power supplies that computers or other equipment use.
These produce a very flat line direct current, usually by stepping up the alternating current frequency early in the power supplies stages of its circuitry and then rectifying it and filtering it, as a noisy power supply (high ripple current) would create may problems with a computers circuitry or other digital circuits.

I have emailed Harold to to discuss the problem and my involvement, I wish not to stir any more dust here.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 25, 2012)

Lou said:


> I don't think so. You can have I<sub3>{-} and perhaps bromine do the same thing.
> 
> Let's let Poe alone. As long as he doesn't post blatant misinformation. I wouldn't call chlorine a reducing agent (but it can be, i.e. fluorine acting on it). 99.999+ cases, chlorine oxidizes gold.



Cl2 (gas) + 2e- <--> 2Cl- Potential volts = 1.3583
Au+ + e- <--> Au Potential volts = 1.68
Au+++ + 3E- <--> Potential volts = 1.42
Simple math Dr. Poe


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## Lou (Jan 25, 2012)

Sir, I refer you to your own thread. 

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=12705

If you think quoting the SRPs somehow makes you one iota of right about chlorine practically being a reducing agent for gold (III) in aqueous environments, you need re-educated. 

By your logic you could never leave a solution of gold (III) in HCl, because Au(III) would be oxidizing chloride to chlorine. By your logic, it's impossible to dissolve gold with chlorine and 1M hydrochloric acid at 25*C. By your logic, it's impossible to make anhydrous gold (III) chloride. Chloride isn't an oxidant anyway.

Chlorine doesn't ever practically reduce gold by cementation. The only time chlorine is being oxidized by gold in my experience chlorinating A LOT of gold is electron transfer due to thermal disproportionation at higher temperatures. Not that the standard reduction table means a damn thing with temperature swings, since it's merely a cute table compiled for convenient access of thermodynamics information.

I'm done using SO2 though, I'll just use LCl2 now since I have my pick.


In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.


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## AlZabrisky (Jan 25, 2012)

AlZabrisky said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> > Lou said:
> ...


Dr Poe??????????


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 25, 2012)

AlZabrisky said:


> AlZabrisky said:
> 
> 
> > Dr. Poe said:
> ...


Identifying the book would open me up to a law suit. Do you think me naive? Just don't mix chlorine or chlorides wet or dry with cyanides. I have better things to do with my life than to defend my statements in a court of law. Besides, lawyers are expensive. Dr. Poe


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 25, 2012)

Lou said:


> Sir, I refer you to your own thread.
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=12705
> 
> ...



Did you not read that I stated that after the gold deposits upon the anode that it redissolves and eventually ends up totally upon the cathode? This was just an example of the physics involved. Gold chloride reduced by chlorine gas is redissolved by the chlorine immediately after it's deposition upon the cathode. The point was to look at the nature of gold in thionate solutions. If you use an anode bag, you will catch the flakes as they fall off. At voltages below 0.85 they won't even fall off at all. Neither on a steel anode unless the amperage is too high. If you must comment about my statements, have the courtesy to pay attention to the total posts. Furthermore, a solution of gold chloride/HCl treated with NaOCl in the sun light, will precipitate golden triangles that will last only a few seconds before redissolving. The 'glitter' produced is unforgettable. It cannot be repeated with the same solution. As a chemist, you should know the interaction of chlorine with hydrogen in ultraviolet light. Now, please leave me to my need to help newbies. You are a chemist, If you want to know more, do the experiments yourself. Dr. Poe


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## 4metals (Jan 26, 2012)

Dr. Poe wrote,


> Now, please leave me to my need to help newbies.



Dr Poe, 
The work I currently do in refining is to design and implement the building or enhancing of refineries and the training of the workers to actually do the work. As you can imagine my exposure to newbies is extensive. I have enjoyed great success by explaining in detail the process to my clients but I always strive to break it down to a level they can relate to. This goes a long way to help them to understand the process and be safe in their daily operations. 

I have been reading most of what you have been posting and in my opinion your descriptions of processes go way beyond the actual processes and into the realm of theoretical. I cannot see how you feel that this approach can help a newbie. for example in the discussion above you said 


> Did you not read that I stated that after the gold deposits upon the anode that it redissolves and eventually ends up totally upon the cathode?


Why would you even go there with an admitted newbie? Members here, for the most part, are looking for the practical results of their labor. Telling them it is going to the anode only to, in the end, report to the cathode does more to confuse than to educate. 

I have no problems with postings which are more theoretical than practical, but our members deserve the warning that this discussion will have little benefit to newbies who don't even know an anode from a cathode. 


I think our member Gold Chloride said it best when he said;



> In my country there is a saying that goes something like this: "There are some people that have a lot of university and too little of whorehouse, others have a little university and a lot of whorehouse, and yet others that have a lot of university and a lot of whorehouse".
> 
> IMO in today's world having whorehouse experience is more important than a lot of university


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## joem (Jan 26, 2012)

Why not start a new main page topic for those advanced in chemical science ( Noxx?) so that the higher levels of education and experienced people can discuss in terms till their hearts content.
Poe: to be honest, with no disrespect to your great knowlege, I am a newbie in chemical science and I still can not understand most of what you write.


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## jimdoc (Jan 26, 2012)

joem said:


> Poe: to be honest, with no disrespect to your great knowlege, I am a newbie in chemical science and I still can not understand most of what you write.



I agree, I don't understand many of his writings. The only things that seem to pop-out are the insults and digs at others. If he could write so everyone could understand him, and eliminate the insults, he would be doing the forum a service. Its the digs at other members intelligence that seems to create the most problems.

Jim


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 26, 2012)

I told you before 4metals: I'm an acid, not a salt!. Respect please!. :lol:


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## 4metals (Jan 26, 2012)

I stand corrected! *H Gold Chloride*, has a nice ring to it.


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 26, 2012)

4metals said:


> I stand corrected! *H Gold Chloride*, has a nice ring to it.


Blame it on the whorehousing, not the university!. :lol:

I only wish I could change my nickname to Dr. Lecithin PhD, MD...


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 26, 2012)

All of you are correct of course. What I wrote is of no profit to new refiners. I vow that If I feel the need to debate with actual chemists (like Lou) I'll send them a private mail. Maybe, they might just consider sending me private mail instead of opening a debate with me openly. How about it, guys. will you express your concerns privately? Dr. Poe


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## qst42know (Jan 26, 2012)

Nothing wrong with private debate as long as you don't leave the rest of us hanging. 

After you have had your debate can you come back with an agreed to conclusion?


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## Lou (Jan 26, 2012)

I'll absolutely keep it to private messages on theory. 

Just keep the practical stuff in line with the reality of what a newb needs to know and avoid the far reaching extremes of the purely abstract and we're good. That's my chief bone with you Poe is that everything you say is so damn _contextual_. That's fine with me, provided you tell me the context of your statement ahead of time and not de facto!


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## samuel-a (Jan 27, 2012)

Dr. Poe, I must agree with Lou here. context.

Its like, you are saying something... but not saying anything.
If no one can uderstand you. what's the point of saying anything... ?


Do know, i'm not out to pick on you, on the contrary. I really think you can help others and believe that these are your intentions.
Just... take it down a nugde and remember that we can't tell what's on your mind if you don't tell us.


(Personally, i would not comment again on this subject as i feel it's already been ground to fine dust)


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 27, 2012)

Perhaps Dr. Poe would clarify a couple of small doubts I have:

1-What is the material used and fabrication process for the best type of membrane to use to diffuse (effuse?) gaseous AuCl3 in order to approach, yet never reach 24 nines in purity of gold?.

2-Can the contraption refinery described in point 1 be built in a kitchen or backyard, and at what cost?.

You may ingest as many lecithin pills as you deem necessary before you answer, precisely, the above 2 questions. :lol:

tip: You may need to change the chlorine to another halogen, before you even start. :roll:


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 27, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> Perhaps Dr. Poe would clarify a couple of small doubts I have:
> 
> 1-What is the material used and fabrication process for the best type of membrane to use to diffuse (effuse?) gaseous AuCl3 in order to approach, yet never reach 24 nines in purity of gold?.
> 
> ...


Of course you are talking about the volitization of pure AuCl3 in a stream of pre-heated chlorine @ 180C.
No membrane require genius. Dr. Poe


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## publius (Jan 27, 2012)

What happened to the Private Messages? I think that from now on I'll only come to this thread to remove the red check mark... :evil:


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 27, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps Dr. Poe would clarify a couple of small doubts I have:
> ...


No. Your grade is F-. 

For $12.50 Million, I can give you the answers.:lol:


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## AlZabrisky (Jan 27, 2012)

Could someone close this degenerating thread?. It is now clear that there is malicious intent to denigrate.

Dr AlZabrisky.


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 27, 2012)

AlZabrisky said:


> Could someone close this degenerating thread?. It is now clear that there is malicious intent to denigrate.
> 
> Dr AlZabrisky.


This is the funniest thread in the forum and you wish to close it?. :shock: :lol: :?:


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## rusty (Jan 27, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> AlZabrisky said:
> 
> 
> > Could someone close this degenerating thread?. It is now clear that there is malicious intent to denigrate.
> ...



Either lock it or have you removed.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 27, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> Dr. Poe said:
> 
> 
> > HAuCl4 said:
> ...


No my answer was correct. Your insistence is trying to goad me into revealing nuclear fluoride technology. That's never going to happen, not even for that which has become unclassified. As far as I am concerned, it will stay classified forever. Dr. Poe, the real Doctor of Geochemical Research :x


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 27, 2012)

I insist that you are extremely funny Dr Poe. Even funnier than rusty. :lol:


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## nickvc (Jan 27, 2012)

Dr.Poe I offer you my apology as it seems that you are indeed going to be a valuable asset to the forum, forgive my scepticism but we have had many join who think they have the answer to every question and insist on giving it whether correct or not. Your dialogue with GSP and Lou seems to give weight to your standing, even though much of what you discuss might just as well be in ancient Babylonian for all the sense it makes to me,and I welcome your future input.
For the sake of all us dummies please post in future in simple terms when possible and more members will be able to make use of what seems vast knowledge that will otherwise be lost on many.
Thank you.


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## niteliteone (Jan 27, 2012)

Dr. Poe, 
Thank You for taking the high road.
I just wish some others will follow your path.

Tom C.


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## Harold_V (Jan 28, 2012)

niteliteone said:


> Dr. Poe,
> Thank You for taking the high road.
> I just wish some others will follow your path.
> 
> Tom C.


If they value their presence here, they'll damned well get on with doing so. I'm about to chop a few heads. 

The next guy (moron) that opens his fat yeep with any kind of insult or left handed "compliment" is getting axed. There will be no further taunting of ANYONE. 

What the hell is wrong with some of you guys? Eight million comedians out of work, and you're trying to be funny? 

Harold


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