# Beginner trying very hard, please assist me



## Jkoper (Apr 6, 2020)

Hi I'm jason,
I have alot going on and I have been studying thru utube for a year....that's part of why i have alot going on..so let me just get started. 
What is wrong right? 
What have I got (some knowledge..ishor kit among other ideas) 5 grand wrapped up into this easy...I'm trying hard 

A few books not cm hoke (I will get it eventually) I want a hard bound copy ok I'm ranting 

Deep green solution (gold within) ishor test proven precious metal test solution (tried stanouss) I will again after I get the hang of it.....
Why green....sulfuric acid + kno3 distilled into fumeing orange.... 50/50 I guess (help needed)
1 gallon of that melted 15 computers depopulated alot of gold crap....(sorry for the mess)

That's never going to happen again (I'm learning)

Tried urea add I'm colloidal suspended I think blackes but smb drops mainly white ph is 2 ish?

Project more of my crap....silver ore soaked in muratic mainly 31% cool luck I show silver wow what I find? (Any advice on this 10lb ore block i found in the creek? I was thinking i would try to forge solid copper wire and cement silver powder from that color of fluid is deep green again tho....(saw someone on utube smarter than I do that named cody it was a good thing?!?) 
$#$===any advice needed there too

I'm a hands on please advise.....

Project 3 I tried some things a while back I have some ingots I believe I melted copper into ingot didnt measure well I have gold In there....(just forget about those for a while, omg I'm a mess)

Project 4 catalytic converter soak (ok let's skip that for now too...

Questions can I add a plethora of any metals say silver to my nasty solutions to possibly cement out the gold?
Is there any tests I can use to check for zero nitrates (like adding urea is supposed to kill?)
I've learned some ....is fumeing orange nitric acid ok for me to use for this refineing I'm attempting to teach myself? (Can I purify orange to clear?)
Just learned the muriatic @31% @10.2 mol to hcl @regant 5.1 mol purification method just now so theres that (ok comment if you must...but I'm a poor white kid almost 40 with 15 years hard labor trying to better my brain....did I mention im trying? (Hope I'm not being insultive)

I have exhausted myself just thinking about this just now really any positive feedback from real helper is a help

Electrolite cells ..... I have a rectifier can I cathode a chunk of gold and anode a stainless plate or carbon bar and grow my gold out then repeat with silver?

I'm just throwing out ideas laugh if you want....
[email protected]
Get me thru this and I promise it won't happen again!
Thanks and have a blessed day 
Knowledge is power


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## butcher (Apr 7, 2020)

Hello Jason,
Learning to recover and refine is not as easy as it sounds, as you are finding out.

You can easily pay too much for gadgets like Ishores, pay too much for scrap, get scammed easily while trying to get scrap or ore to process, spend too much on lab equipment and dangerous chemicals you may never learn to use or even have a use for, or have the understanding to store them safely...

A big part of learning is, learning whether the information you are studying is factual, or outdated, good information or just plain misleading information...

Where to start when there is so much to learn?
Start simple, with simple materials and simple processes, do not spend money on chemicals or supplies until you actually have a need for them, learn the basics, learn safety aspects, and dealing with waste, and how to set up a safe lab area, do not waste time making messes with uneducated experimenting, learn to test...

study one process at a time with one material (work with easier scrap in the beginning) like solder-free memory fingers, karat gold, or sterling silver... 

learning how to pre-process the material is just as important as the recovery stage of the gold or other metals from the material, many times the concentrated material then will determine the type of recovery process needed and then sometimes we will also have choices within those of which chemical or other processes we can use to recover the gold or precious metals. 

I would start with studying
Hoke's book which is a must in my opinion.
Dealing with waste.
Understanding the dangers involved and how to work safely.
Memory fingers, karat scrap, or sterling silver (a simpler material than electronic scrap or rock ore)
Studying the processes of recovery of that material, study the refining processes for that type of material, study problems related to the processes know what to expect and how to deal with them, gain an understanding of how and why, so you can troubleshoot problems and figure out solutions...

Study Hoke's book and keep restudying it.
Study dealing with waste, and working safely, after learning the basics keep studying to further your understanding.

Start with simple material like memory fingers, study how to prepare or pre-process the materials, study the gold recovery process, study the refining processes, study the testing processes, study the melting processes, study everything you can before you begin or make a mess and lose your gold, study where the gold is and how to get it economically and safely (now I am rambling),..


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## Jkoper (Apr 7, 2020)

It's kind of too late for that advice and a years worth of trial and error is why I am asking for the help....lessons learned come expensively and I dont have bullion to try these techniques at the moment out with. 

Not a total moron is there and advice you or anyone can give me being new and needing to recover my 1st attempt mistakes?

Advice meaning with my current solutions?


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## Shark (Apr 7, 2020)

At the risk of sounding odd, and not knowing everything you have done to your solutions, I would let them sit and study "Dealing with waste" here is the link for that.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1300

When treating your waste there is a step for recovering any PM's that may be left in the solution. At that step you can recover any precious metals you have in there. It may be easier to recover it that way than trying to "question and answer" back and forth while trying to figure out your next step. It will also leave time for you to learn where to start turning those recovered materials into high grade metals, which in turn leaves time to learn more ways to recover precious metals.


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## butcher (Apr 7, 2020)

Listen to Shark he always gives sound advice, studying dealing with waste will be your best bet at learning to recover your values, and learn some of the basic principles of recovery and refining along the way.


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## Jkoper (Apr 8, 2020)

That does sound like good sound advice.
I'm about to read it here in a second and I do appreciate that link.

Answer some questions for me if you dont mind?
It will help me learn....and specifically I'm trusting a group that deals in this recovery process (keep in mind my vocabulary if I'm wrong quiz me I should be ok?)

When creating aqua regia (me the idiot)
Did I do anything seriously wrong with fumeing orange nitric? Should it have been purified or can it be to the clear version....
Any specific tests for nitrates (is that right)
....the hydrogen molecule and acid 10to the power is confusing me still...
....are all minerals metals?
Damn ide like to call one of you and ask just 99 questions that would fill so many of my gaps in my knowledge is that ever possible....

I am going to read that link and I have been hard studying this for about a year now so thanks for your good advice I want you guys/gals to know that

When a crystal forms does that mean there is always a mineral/metal?
(Therefore all gemstones even are minerals?)
Even gases are minerals molecularly?
Dont laugh...its a process of stupidity from you to me probablly!

Thanks

Uhhh, I guess molecuraly since none of this shit is even alive decay isnt really even true it just floats away? Is anything ever toxic or radioactive (I mean duh it is but can it always be mixed and purified, filtered and saved or spread up to float away? 
(Is that wierd....yes I am asking yes I know it's a strange what the hell did he say question just skip my brain if I'm off that far)

Scientist evolve maybe im smarter than you! (Ha)

Thanks again

That electronic shell stuff is that like oxidative states?
Is ex fe+4 fe-4.....is that ok let's use silver
ag = bullion+4 or .9999
Ag = tarnish -4

Ok that's enough for you guys I'm going to that dealing with waste link now and I'm going to do it a look and maybe book mark it thanks!

Just read that good read (i knew some not all...fishtank bubbler will be added I'm dealing like that now on a 10 lb silver ore acid soak, thanks)

What's a good source or iron I have some powder iron I bought I think is that better? Should I use something like angle iron bed frame rail...? Any comment....

Thanks for the read


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## butcher (Apr 8, 2020)

For dissolution of silver or base metals dilute you're 68% nitric with equal volumes of water.
For aqua regia using the nitric at 68% concentration is just fine or it can be more dilute and used with heat...

The iron bed frame would work better as a source of iron to cement copper than using iron powder.

There is a test like the brown ring test for nitrates but it is not normally helpful in what we do.

..the hydrogen molecule and acid 10to the power is confusing me still...
Well as long as you can understand the orange is more acidic than the milk you will be ok until it clicks.

I see minerals as being similar to salts basically a combination of metals and nonmetals.
sodium is a metal, chlorine a gas, when combined they form a salt of the metal and a salt of the acid or in this case the gas...

True we do not create or destroy matter or the elements, we just convert it to a new substance, it just does not just float away...


That electronic shell stuff is that like oxidative states?

The atom of metal will have electrons in the outer shell, when we take, share, or move an electron away from the outer shell of the atom we have that metal in a higher oxidation state, as a salt of that metal (and of the nonmetal that gained the electron like chlorine becoming a salt of the gas chlorine gas), take away another electron from the metal atom or share it with another atom-like chlorine and we have an even higher oxidation state (now missing or sharing two electrons)...


Do not worry so much about the chemistry aspect or what the electrons are doing at first, the chemistry will become clearer as you learn more.

Concern yourself more on how to work safely and not poison yourself and others as you learn more, and in doing so the chemistry will become clearer and easier to understand.


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## Jkoper (Apr 8, 2020)

One last question as I reread an earlier post from you.....

You said study before i lose my gold?

Can you elaborate....is gold something that can be lost into solution if so how long does that take?


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## butcher (Apr 8, 2020)

When we dissolve a metal like gold, we are using an acid along with a strong oxidizing agent.

When the atom of gold is oxidized it gives up an electron to the acid, the gold becomes an ion of gold or a positive gold metal cation (an ionic salt of the gold), the acid is reduced as it gains the electron and becomes a salt of the acid the negative ions anions, so now we have a salt of the metal and the acid in solution, along with any of the easier dissolved base metals.

Now the trick becomes how do you give the gold ions back the electrons to reduce the gold back to metal, a metal with atoms having full shells of electrons?

If you can answer this question you have a good chance of not losing your gold at this stage of recovery or refining.
How can we determine if gold is actually in a solution? How do we determine we do not have gold as a salt in the liquid?
what do we do if things do not go as planned like the books say or Youtube videos show?

So it is easy to dissolve gold.

How do we lose it, well besides the normally broken glassware, we can lose our gold from being uneducated in the complexity of recover or refining, there are many steps to recovery and refining gold, we can lose it through many of these different steps if we are not educated or have experience in troubleshooting or even understanding the processes...
We can dissolve tin with gold and lose it in a colloidal solution, we cannot test for, or if you do not know how to test for gold in solution, too much oxidizer can make detecting gold in solution difficult or the test will not show up when there is gold in solution, you can lose gold from not understanding all of the details and steps in dealing with waste...

There are many places where someone learning to recover and refine can lose his gold, from glassware, waste stream to his flue, but mainly through not educating himself properly...

Search for how many times a new member's first questions are "I dissolved my gold, how do I get it back, where is it?


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## Jkoper (Apr 9, 2020)

Gold salt is different than gold precipitant?

I guess precipitants are more magnetic drips where salts are formed with gasses? And liquid colloidal suspensions are separated polar and non polar? As well as metallic element separation giveing off color and ph balance minute hues (as in .... the yellows or platinum groups?)

I'm not totally un educated I'm feeling like I'm missing a little something though and cant quite place my finger on it? 

I think I need to go slow keep learning but possibly also add distilled water to help the acids dilute.....

Being my first go round this is my waste....


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## Jkoper (Apr 9, 2020)

? Is cantions, anions 
Ionic bonds with a positive ending ring is a cantion?
Ionic bonds with a negative ending ring is an anion?

How does oxidiseing fit in here.....sorry for memorizing so much and haveing such basic questions it's my learning curve, plus 15 years hard labor indoors breathing printing press fumes 

Thanks for taking your time out to help you really are bringing out well understood and/or focus points of how i can further my learning research!


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## butcher (Apr 9, 2020)

Forget what you think, or what you think you know.
And study so that you can understand and know.
I do not know if you are just playing the fool, playing a game or what, but the questions do not sound like you are serious or are playing with a full deck, are you serious?

I also suggest not doing anything chemically before you study.
Chemistry is not something to be playing around with.
Gold metal is a cluster of gold atoms with each of its atoms having full shells of all of its electrons.

Chlorine is a gas that dissolves in the liquid acids, it does not have a full shell of electrons and will take the electrons from gold.

When combined in solution the gold gives up its electrons and bonds with three to four chlorine atoms (depending on acidity and oxidation state of the gold solution), as the gold is oxidized (lose of electrons) to form dissolved salt of gold, at the same time the chlorine gas (gaining the electrons from the gold) is reduced to chloride salts, basically dissolving both in solution as dissolved salts of the gold and the acidic chlorine, forming chloride negative ions with gold positive ions in an oxidation state of Au+3 or HAu+4 oxidation state as AuCl3 or HAuCl4.

To precipitate the gold ( change it from a dissolved salt back to the metal with its atoms having all of its electrons), we have to have something to reduce the gold (or give the gold ions back their missing electrons),
reducing agents will give gold ions back electrons to form a gold precipitant, reducing agent like sodium or potassium Sulfites, sulfur dioxide gas, ascorbic acid, sulfurous acid, sodium metabisulfites, ferrous sulfate (copperas), sodium nitrites, sulfides, oxalic acid, cupric chloride, BDG, DBG, reactive metals (more reactive than gold like Zn, Fe, Cu, Mg...), basically most all of the base metals will reduce gold from solution or give gold ions an electron to change it from being a dissolved salt to being a metal gold powder which will settle to the bottom of an undisturbed container as a purer brown powder or more impure black powder with other reduced metals from the solution... 


The gold precipitant is not a salt of gold but gold metal in powdered form.
The gold precipitant is a cluster of gold atoms with each atom having a full shell of electrons.


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## Jkoper (Apr 9, 2020)

I serious just have a patchy set of facts I'm dealing with and am trying to find associations I can remember things with. 
Take for example all of these chlorine references as example....doesn't chlorine get weaker with sunlight and that's why swimming pools need to have more ta let's added overtime? Does that mean a shortwave mineral light like the 265nm I have would be able to aid the recovery process?

I'm just trying to help my memory find associations. The safety aspect is already misused as I've probablly already learned the hard way. I had yellow fingernails bad for a while I think at the beginning of this experiment quest of learning i took safety for granite and poiaioned myself pretty good. I might die several years earlier than God intented me to because of that only time will tell. I will get better equiptment in due time I dont want this to be a hobby I've got a personal desire to learn this as a passion for some reason. I've always liked science in school and that's what all this is to me. 

Thanks


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## butcher (Apr 9, 2020)

Sunlight basically is a reducing agent for chlorine gas, sunlight reduces the chlorine gas to chlorides, giving it the missing electron.
Sunlight can also be a reducing agent for silver ions, sunlight will also reduce silver chloride to metallic silver (just not very efficiently for our purposes) but great for photography...

Does that mean a shortwave mineral light like the 265nm I have would be able to aid the recovery process?
I have no clue what you're referring to here with the ultraviolet light.

If you are serious then take safety seriously, we are making many different poisons and dealing with many different dangerous reactions, basically, if you understand the safety aspects and dealing with waste properly you will not lose your gold and may be able to keep your life.


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## butcher (Apr 9, 2020)

After a little coffee, your question made a bit more sense to me.
Does that mean a shortwave mineral light like the 265nm I have would be able to aid the recovery process?

Although Ultraviolet light or sunlight can play some role in refining it is only a slight hindrance or aid in the recovery process.

sunlight can dissipate chlorine gas from solution, although the heat from the sun aids possibly more to the process.

For example, gold that is dissolved into chlorinated water (using HCl and bleach or other hypochlorites) letting the solution sit in the warm glow of the sun, the ultraviolet light and the heat destroy the chlorine in solution.
Hypochlorite (OCl-) decays much faster with UV than does hypochlorous acid(HOCl), sunlight converts HOCl into HCl and at the pH or acidity of our chlorinated water with gold ions in solution, the UV really needs the added reaction of the heat from the sunlight to be of much help in reducing oxidizing agents in solution...

Sunlight is not much help for solutions with high oxidation potential solutions like aqua regia, you would have a hard time noticing any reactions.

Along with sunlight, heat ( which may play more of a factor in many instances but always aids) in driving gases like chlorine or oxygen from solution, so heat, in my opinion, is more of an aid in our processes, on that note cooling and concentrating a solution are also very helpful in our processes, much more than sunlight in my opinion.

Nitrates in the chlorinated water can speed the process so UV has some effect on the NOCl as well, but again at the pH or acidity of our solution, it would take a long long time at high temperatures to see much effect of the sunlight on our solutions...


As mentioned above sunlight or UV light can reduce silver chloride to silver metal, this only occurs at the surface of the silver chloride cluster (normally only after being washed of excess acid), this can be somewhat helpful as an indicator of silver if the white powder turns black, or it can also be a hindrance in the recovery process where we do not want silver metal but wish to keep the silver chloride for further processing...


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## Shark (Apr 9, 2020)

To be honest most of your questions are over my head. I understand that chlorine dissipates easier in sunlight as well as with heat. I just do not have the ability to explain it in scientific terms. I know that at 120*F it dissipates about three times as fast as it does at 75*F. Nothing scientific about that, I have just done it often enough and kept notes here and there and seen it happen. I know what is going on in simple terms quite often, but struggle to explain the science behind it. The thing that amazes me most is that Hoke explained it in simple enough terms for me to understand it. Then quite often on the forum explanations come up that are simple enough for me to understand how to perform some things without having to understand the science. I still work at learning that aspect of it, but I am a bit slow in that department yet. The struggle with learning it is the main reason I stay at it. Butcher can explain so much of it better than I can and in terms both myself and the more educated can understand. 

You really should give Hoke a read, just in case you want to try it, 

Printer friendly version
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=17706#p179081

Screen readable version
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19798#p201558


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## Jkoper (Apr 11, 2020)

Tomorrow I'm going to get ahold of the local speedy office solutions and see about getting hokes book printed out and thanks for the over your head comment, that kinda boosts my ego but I doubt it is over your head just its it that little bit of associative knowledge missing and why I have mine there is no telling. Thank bones, csis, Hollywood, ect ect.

Back to business....I took one of the earlier post and put it to practice...now I think I can use the right words to ask maybe you can help so here I go.....

These messups I am dealing with...i took the previously helped link and i now have a fish tank bubbler and i stuck a copper buss bar into one I believe has silver impregnated in....I'm seeing good signs but the progress is slow and slimey....white anode gel..? And were on day 3...any tips? The solutions pretty dark if that helps any....I have a precious metals test drop...i have no clue what it is apparently it does the full gambit of precious metals but i like it because I'm going for idiot proof....I did stannous chloride at my beginnings I might still have some Crystal's around here to try again later but I can get more if suggested...I'm purefying muratic to make better hcl if that helps this might be a dirty hcl?.....

Thanks 
Help jason koperstynski.....hands on will make me learn but I will be reading that hoke book soon, please guide me!


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## Jkoper (Apr 11, 2020)

And to butcher

Thanks for the postings they will be notes for me to review untill I learn

Yes I have a mineral light,
Yes it was a silly thought from me!

Thanks again
....keep in mind this is trial # 1 I have alot of passion here little friends like myself, 

If you help I'll ups you some great coffee I'll guarantee
Starbucks, duncan, ganeveli, highlander grog, 

Help me first then pick your blend if you want of a gift card and you can get a lb on me. Just want to Express my gratitude


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## Shark (Apr 11, 2020)

When cementing silver it often takes on a "gel" or "shimmering" look while still in solution. The bulkiness of it often can deceive one into thinking there is more there than there really is. 

As for stannous it is never good to run out. I make mine using non lead solder or the "eco friendly" tin fishing sinkers, my favorite when I can find them. Stannous is your eyes when working with precious metals. It can show you your gold when your eyes can't see it, and a few other metals when used right.

If you find the "idiot proof" version of refining, let me know, I can sure use it myself :!:

While I use hardware store versions of most chemicals, I have not purified any of them in several years. I just learned to work with them as is. Those that can't be used direct I don't use. Having true lab chemicals is nice and can often save many headaches.

Always keep in mind that most of this is not instantaneous, it takes time for the reactions to take place. Very often, especially during the day, I am here reading while giving a reaction plenty of time to work. This way I don't stop it to soon.

Sorry for rambling, just thinking of little things that might help down the road.


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## butcher (Apr 11, 2020)

If the copper bus bar is silver coated, it can be forming silver chlorides, you may need to brush off the copper bar into the solution if they coat it too much.


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## Jkoper (Apr 13, 2020)

Can anyone recommend something I can add to the solution to help aid the ccementationbof the silver to copper bar....?


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## Jkoper (Apr 13, 2020)

I did put a lightbulb next to it to help add the heat and will probably get a fish tank heater soon I think that's not a bad idea


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## Shark (Apr 14, 2020)

I have never used anything when cementing silver other than an aquarium air pump. You don't want the silver to actually stick to the copper, it should drop off as it builds up under it's own weight. The air pump is there to assist it in dropping off as well as get more solution in contact with the copper.


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