# Is this PGM powder considered



## Sorrycantseeme (May 5, 2020)

While cementing is the black pgm powder that attaches to the copper pipe is that considered to be toxic or casuse platinosis. Is the black powder only safe when it turns to metallic form. Basically why did the black pgm turn to metallic after a week and why did only 1 pipe turn metallic , is the black powder still considered metallic even though its not its black 

Also why did only 1 pipe actually turn from black to metallic?


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## Lino1406 (May 5, 2020)

Take black platinum through metal detector - I assume it won't sound an alarm


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 6, 2020)

so its toxic , why does the black pgm only turn metallic on some pieces. It would be alot easier to answer the question yes or no its toxic and can cause platinosis . I dont see how bringing black pgm powder through a metal detector is helpful. Metal detectors have a hard time locating precious metal in general or else everybody would be getting rich.


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## nickvc (May 7, 2020)

I believe the black powder is very similar to the brown powder you get when you precipitate gold, it’s metallic at this stage, platinosis is caused by the salts you create dissolving PGMs and that is the danger point but I would still be careful handling the powder just as a precaution wear gloves and do not inhale it as there will almost certainly some acidic residue left.


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 8, 2020)

Thank you very much nickvc .I appreciate the help , I was unsure because when the 1 copper pipe actually turned metallic i still dont know why it did but I remember a member saying that when you cement pgm its no longer considered salt .I then thought the black might be considered salt but thank you for helping its so hard to get straight forward answers in this section. I am the type that no matter what if I know something that I know 100% is the right way ,or correct procedure to do something I will tell something . Theres nothing worse than hearing someone listen to advice that sometimes is left to be open ended .


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 9, 2020)

How is it possible nobody on here can tell me why one of the copper pipes cemented with metallic pgms and the others were black pgm? I dont see why it is a big secret surely somebody knows.


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## butcher (May 9, 2020)

The copper gives up electrons to the platinum group metal ions in solution, the copper atom once giving up its electron, becomes a metal ion or salt of copper in solution, the platinum group ions once receiving electrons from the copper bar become atoms of metal which either cling to the copper or cement out of solution as metal powders once enough of these newly formed atoms grow in size and can fall to the bottom of the vessel with gravity...


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## nickvc (May 9, 2020)

Not sure I can give you a clever answer but I’d say that as the black powder is a similar form to the brown you get from gold then if you crush that brown powder you get gold you can recognize so if your PGMs have formed a heavier crystal density on that pipe it’s the same idea to my mind, not sure how it happened or why perhaps one of our chemists or physicists can explain the mechanics of the reactions.


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 9, 2020)

Thank you so much Nickvc & Butcher . My last question I am ever going to have for the forum. I read Alumina can be dissolved with Sulfuric Acid then I read it cant ? Which one should i believe , I would hate to buy sulfuric acid and concentrate as its much more dangerous than hcl .


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## Yggdrasil (May 9, 2020)

Sorrycantseeme:
I'm not proficient in cementing, but it can be quite a challenging process.
Heating, Ph control and a lot of parameters to get max result I think.
Have you considered atomized copper powder?

First time I tried cementing PGMs I ended up with small metallic PGM fragments floating on the surface of the liquid and the inside of the beaker was plated.

There are some cementing gurus here, so when they find the time they may chime in with some tips.

Pic of said cementing in 100ml beaker:

Hang in there  

When things goes for alumina and other ceramics I think that is for the pros.
We are talking about HF or molten NaOH, extremely dangerous stuff.
Continue the way you are doing now I think.


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 9, 2020)

Hydroflouric acid is dangerous , I know Sulfuric can cause u to lose a finger. 
I was wondering would a refiner take it like this with Alumina . 


Another issue is the black pgm in the pic doesnt want to go into solution like some of earlier pgm did . 
You dont think it would be easier to boil down a bunch of sulfuric or battery acid and carefully try to digest the alumina .


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## Yggdrasil (May 9, 2020)

I really don't know if Sulfuric will dissolve Alumina.
Why are there alumina in the cemented PGMs?
Or are they not dissolved and cemented?

If so you could fuse the powders in SodiumBisulfate (NaHSO₄) or Oxone and then cement it out from that.
Like here when you have pure PGMs, Zink is a nice metal to do the cementing as you will not have base metals in solution.
After the initial leech that is.


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 9, 2020)

I read in some publication that alumina will dissolve in concentrated sulfuric . Then it said u could filter the sulfuric out


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## Yggdrasil (May 9, 2020)

I really don't know about that, but if it is true. 
It will mean you have to use glassfiber filters since Sulfuric will dissolve your paper filters.


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## canedane (May 9, 2020)

Why cement with Al?
Al will theoretical cement all these metals Mn, Zn, Cr, Fe, Co, Ni, Sn, Pb, Cu, Ag, Au, Pt.(Reactive table)
Take ay of these metals and it will only cement the metals on the right side of the reactive table.
Now look at Cu. It will only cement Ag, Au, Pt,(and Palladium) but not the metals on the left side.
Where Palladium is on the reactive table i do not know but it is on the right side of Cu.
A high voltage thick Cobber bar is better than a copper pipe, it is more pure and do not have a hollow side where the Pm can be hidden.
I can buy it on my local scrap yard.
Henrik


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## Yggdrasil (May 9, 2020)

I think the Alumina comes from the washcoat for the Catalyst.
I do not think he has used Aluminum to cement values.
Anyway it is supposed to be PGMs only anyway.


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## canedane (May 9, 2020)

What is the acid(s) and what did you dissolve?
It was a mistake i try to give an answer to a question with two unknown facts, i am sorry about that.
But the reactive table is always good to learn about.
Henrik


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 9, 2020)

Its all good Canedane i appreciate everyone that has taken time yggdrasil,nickvc,butcher,canedane , everyone on this forum. I just couldnt understand why that 1 copper pipe just appeared shiny metallic so it then made me worry . I was thinking all of copper cementing should look like that. I just jumped into something that now i know i would do different on the second one im going to do. I am going to use less acid intially by breaking the S.S. into blocks and lay them on there side . I will have a better sense of direction second time around as long as i get done with this one..


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## FrugalRefiner (May 9, 2020)

Sorrycantseeme said:


> I just couldnt understand why that 1 copper pipe just appeared shiny metallic so it then made me worry . I was thinking all of copper cementing should look like that.



You've asked about, or mentioned this numerous times, but no one can give you an answer. We don't know what the pipes looked like before you put them into the solution. We don't know how they might have been arranged in the solution. We don't know how the solution was circulated or agitated. We really don't know anything about the process other than you saying only one looked shiny metallic and asking why. I'm not trying to be harsh or difficult. It's just an impossible question to answer without all the details. It's not that anyone is keeping secrets from you. There are just so many variables it's just difficult to know. At this point it probably doesn't matter.

Dave


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 9, 2020)

What are the variables , I placed numerous copper pipes in solution that i know had pgm because i tested with stannous . I used 2 bubblers and would pull the pipes out and squirt the pgm black off with a squirt bottle . One of the copper pipes i pulled out of solution next day just appeared metallic . I dont know what the miscommunication could be?


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## FrugalRefiner (May 9, 2020)

Sorrycantseeme said:


> What are the variables , I placed numerous copper pipes in solution that i know had pgm because i tested with stannous . I used 2 bubblers and would pull the pipes out and squirt the pgm black off with a squirt bottle . One of the copper pipes i pulled out of solution next day just appeared metallic . I dont know what the miscommunication could be?



I already gave you a few variables. What the pipes looked like before you put them into the solution. Perhaps they had different amounts of oxidation, dirt, oil, etc. on them.

How they might have been arranged in the solution. You say "I placed numerous copper pipes in solution". That really doesn't tell me much. Were they close together, in a line, in a circle, clumped together, etc.? One or more pipes can have an effect on how the solution comes in contact with the others.

How the solution was circulated or agitated. "I used 2 bubblers". Again, that's not very helpful. Were they in the middles of the vessel, off to a side, under one or more pipes, etc.?

I'm not asking you to answer the questions. I'm trying to point out just a few of the many possible variables. I couldn't possible come up with a comprehensive list of possible variables. My point is that things happen. Sometimes we can figure out why. Other times we can't. I can't answer your question. I'm just trying to help you understand that there are many things that can affect reactions.

I hope I've communicated better this time.

Dave


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 10, 2020)

I cleaned the copper pipes with water and rag . I only put 1 pipe in the solution at a time and I used 2 60 gallon aquarium pumps . The pipe was not metallic when I removed it but when i came into shop next day I was looking for a fresh shiny pipe I already cleaned and cut and I seen the pipe give off a rainbow white shine . Its too weird I just want to get rid of this alumina , any thoughts on sulfuric removing alumina or is it too dangerous for the reward.


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## butcher (May 10, 2020)

As far as we know the aquarium pumps could have a metal shaft that sitting in the electrolytic solution along with the copper pipe making a little battery...
Without being there to see what is going on, or without knowing details even something simple is just a mystery and a guessing game only you know the details too.


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 10, 2020)

There certainly cant be infinite answers to this . There can only be a few scenarios. The pipe was out of solution when it went from black to metallic. Surely there has to be only a few 
avenues that lead to this result.


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 14, 2020)

I dont understand how there is no definitive explanation. If there was other metals in solution would copper cement them out like chromium or steel? 
I am suprised no scientist has the answer ? 
I used 2 60 gallon air bubblers with 4 stones in a 5 gallon bucket?


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## FrugalRefiner (May 14, 2020)

Sorrycantseeme said:


> I dont understand how there is no definitive explanation. If there was other metals in solution would copper cement them out like chromium or steel?
> I am suprised no scientist has the answer ?
> I used 2 60 gallon air bubblers with 4 stones in a 5 gallon bucket?



You seem to have switched questions. I responded to your question about why one of your copper pipes reacted differently than the others.

Now you're asking whether copper will cement other metals like chromium or steel from a solution. You can find that answer by looking at the reactivity series of metals. Copper will cement precious metals and mercury if they are in solution. It will not cement iron or chromium.

Dave


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 15, 2020)

So scientifically if I had stainless steel , and various metals in solution the only powder that will be present if a piece of copper was placed in there with agitation theoretically will be either pgm , Mercury or copper, and this is scientifically the only possible outcome


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 15, 2020)

Am I on the right track? I'm going to post pictures of the cement from when I began 


and the last picture will be where I am now. Based on your yrs of expertise why does the cement look so different?


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## UncleBenBen (May 26, 2020)

Where are your gloves?  

Working with platinum metals can kill you. Please take the proper precautions.


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## Sorrycantseeme (May 28, 2020)

Yes I know we have discussed this.


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