# Hi All ...



## manneke_pis (Apr 4, 2012)

Been reading and reading .. no questions yet. Nada. Reading and reading ... lots to absorb.

Thanks for this great goldmine of information.

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## publius (Apr 6, 2012)

Keep up the good work! Welcome to the forums!


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## manneke_pis (Apr 7, 2012)

Hi all,

There is too much info here to have a question! 
Goes to show the quality of the extremely knowledgeable moderators and members.

As they say 'Chapeau' ...

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## manneke_pis (Apr 14, 2012)

Hmm .. Forum + Hoke .. still nothing that I can contribute nor ask.


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## butcher (Apr 14, 2012)

Well you must be doing things the right way.
No need to ask questions when you’re finding the answers in reading.


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## Harold_V (Apr 15, 2012)

manneke_pis said:


> Hmm .. Forum + Hoke .. still nothing that I can contribute nor ask.


Perhaps not, but you are gaining the respect of those who try to lead readers in the proper direction. When you finally do have questions, they, most likely, will be worth asking. 

My hat is off to you.

Harold


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## manneke_pis (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks guys, for the hearty welcome ..

I believe it is the decent thing to do.

My 1st yr college Chemistry Lab 'etiquette' lessons will keep me safe.... I understand the Periodic table well .. so have a good basis of how and why things bubble and sometimes can go 'poof' :evil: ; however always avoided.

Currently the 'Standard Solutions' (making of) and testing procedures for said solutions, as well as 'assaying' chemically the solid 'alloyed' metals. (PM's of course). All the info needed is here in the forums along with all the pretty colors.

Note: a spotting plate will be needed .. :lol:


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## wade brenckle (Apr 20, 2012)

Hello all. I am so new at this I should read up on what is gold first. I scrap for a living. Actually an existence! I have many computer components. Literally 2+ tons. Sold a few on ebay as wadeiam. I purchased from shore some sub zero and storm precipitant.Followed to the T, every step. I had 3 oz of dried brown powder. A local gold buyer shot it with a gun that said i have a bronze alloy or something not gold or a pm. My 2nd batch, same thing. I was told my sub zero seller that the only metal that storm targeted was gold. Why am I getting trash? Also I put a lot of hard drive platters in lye and water. He said %95 nickle? I still have the stuff, where can I send it to get tested. Anyone here who will test it for me can keep the sample if it turns out he ripped me. I am distraught here, this is more of a necessity than a hobby for me. Any ideas on what I may be doing wrong. All my test show gold in the solution, before and after I neutralize it with urea. Everything I read plays out like it reads out. Until I get ready to sell the powder. Please help out a ignorant to the process user. I it is allowed I'd give my phone number. I am really down and out here. Desperate in fact. And I just found a local supplier of actual nitric and hydrochloric acids. Only problem is the quantities I need to buy. 4 gal. at a time. A lot. I would assume that the natural acids will work better. what am I doing wrong? I feel like I'm in the matrix like Neo, and its all a bad dream.


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## Harold_V (Apr 20, 2012)

Wade,
I want you to do a little test. Take a small sample of your brown powder ---just a small amount will do. Heat it to ensure that it has expelled all traces of acids. If you perform the test I'm going to suggest and you don't do so, it won't necessarily yield proper results. You can place the material in a test tube, which you can then heat to a few hundred degrees. Watch for signs of gassing from the material. May not be much. 

When the material and test tube have cooled, I want you to place a drop of nitric acid in the material, along with a drop of water. More is not needed, nor is it necessary. 

What happens? Does the material retain its shape and pretty much the same color, or does it dissolve quickly, leaving a blue solution? 

Pure gold won't dissolve with this test----although if it has been precipitated from a dirty solution, it may well still contain some copper. Key to the test is if it dissolves, or not. A hint of blue is acceptable, due to drag down. If you have any doubts, and you get some color, add a few more drops of nitric and water. Even heated, it should NOT dissolve if it's gold. 

Before you try to sell, you'd be well served to melt the material, assuming it is gold. That will remove any doubts from a buyer's mind. However, before you melt the powder, it is important that you understand that it needs to be pure--and it likely is not. Lets determine what you have, then go from there. Be certain to post your results, so help can be provided. 

I strongly advise you abandon your procedures and start reading this forum. Here, you will learn how to process without being tied to chemicals that are being sold to you at unreasonable prices. 

Also, please download a copy of Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what it teaches. Do this even if you feel you don't need it. 

Harold


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## wade brenckle (Apr 20, 2012)

Thank you. I tried to melt. But I'm so green do not think I'm doing that correctly. The main thing got me is I was told that when i add storm precipitant the only thing that will fall is gold mud. From what im reading here is that is not the case. I still have the mix that i precipitated from, and it still test pos for gold. Is it possible that I did not fully neutralize the mix? Using urea. I'm using sub zero and storm. Only just found a supplier local for actual acids. My guess is that they work more efficient than sz $ storm.


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## Geo (Apr 20, 2012)

sub zero is a nitrate (normally sodium nitrate) and the storm precipitant is sodium metabisulfite. shor has a few different processes but when these two are used, its a process called "poor man"s AR" (aqua regia) meaning Noble water or King of Water. this process has been discussed on the forum forwards and backwards and even sideways. :lol: if you check out some of the older threads about it, im sure you will find a few where their results were the same as yours and what they did to straighten it out.


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## wade brenckle (Apr 20, 2012)

Did the test. Used 3 grains (pellets) of SZ and a drop of water for 20 min.. The SZ dissolved and the powder I put stayed the same. I have some 10k test solution that I put 3 drops on a little powder. ( contents say nitric and muriatic) It fizzed a little but stayed the same pretty much until i put it in a tablespoon of water then it all dissolved to Nada. I also have the test liquid that come with the SZ. I used the test liquid 1st on the test i did with the 10k solution. Nothing as I expected. But when I put some on the test you said to try, it turned white instantly. Then dissipated to clear with a few almost microscopic whitish sand like sediments.  Back to PMR sq. 1  The old AR mix, I still have it. Is it possible to treat it as a metal and throw it in a mix? It still test pos for Au. ( Been sitting outside with a plastic bag stuffed in the milk jug for 2 weeks)


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## lazersteve (Apr 20, 2012)

Wade what exactly did you digest with the shor chemicals and how did the reaction proceed?

Steve


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## manneke_pis (Apr 29, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> Wade,
> I strongly advise you abandon your procedures and start reading this forum. Here, you will learn how to process without being tied to chemicals that are being sold to you at unreasonable prices.
> Also, please download a copy of Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what it teaches. Do this even if you feel you don't need it.
> Harold



I second that ... as an essential pre-requisite..


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## wade brenckle (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi lost intnet for a bit. Read a lot in hoke Never see where she neutralizes. bought nitric and hydrochloric, did a batch, tried to neutralize with baking soda,know it tkes alot. sure the ar wasnt used up but wanted to run a small test, i cant understand why it keeps reacting with the soda seams like the more osda the more fizz! only testing about 3 oz's. but got 6 cups on shelf still not used up im sure. same batch from test, i read hoke, though not compleat. only interested in gold now, never saw where she neutralise except with water. can i get a lil help? ty the baking soda has made a green sludge that im filtering with a coffee filter, taking forever. i want to try precipitating with some storm precipitant from shore. if anyone wants this last bag of subzero its free just pay the cod on it. i have the real nitric and hydrochloric. bought it just 5 miles from home. wish id found it $500 dollars ago. im lost in hoke all the different ways, most common and all. tried the nitric only thing on some pins took off the gold as specks of brown, but left the pins! the book said all was to disolve and leave brown mud at bottom. i need to drop any gold in this mix. the book gives a few ways. the easiest is of course the ????? way!!! please help out.


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## Geo (Jun 18, 2012)

why are you neutralizing the solution? is it spent waste or does it still contain gold? if you are trying neutralize the free nitric acid, you are doing it all wrong. dont add any more baking soda. tell us what you are trying to do. 

please finish reading Hoke's book. if you would have, you would know how to neutralize the free nitric acid.


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## jimdoc (Jun 18, 2012)

wade brenckle said:


> Read a lot in hoke Never see where she neutralizes.



Try page 44 and 45 again.

Jim


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## wade brenckle (Jun 19, 2012)

i was going to try storm precipitant to drop gold. im on a serious time line. need a lot of money fast. have a ton of scrap to run. have about 5 gallons each nitric and hydrochloric. i was hoping there was a way around the evapoating process. i really do not have the space to have too much free fumes floating around. and it looks like the AR has to be neutral in order to drop the gold. i have been in hoke daily. i see different processes. the one i was going to use is thesodium nitrite way.but the chemist where i was to get it says that if the acids were not totttttaly neutral i waould be making nitroglyiseren. i do not need a boom boom in my life. have enough troubles. sulphur dioxide gas seemes reasonable but cant locate it yet. surley cant afford has mat shipping charges.


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## jimdoc (Jun 19, 2012)

Rushing is just asking for problems. You can probably sell your material for a good price and avoid all the chemistry.

Jim


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## Harold_V (Jun 19, 2012)

A few thoughts. 
There are no shortcuts. 
You have been provided with some excellent guidance (Hoke's book). 
Rarely will you, or anyone, reinvent the wheel so it is more round. Why are you trying, when you don't know what you're doing?

If you have no intentions of following advice that has been dispensed to you, you most likely will wear out your welcome here very quickly. 

Reason?

In an attempt to cut corners, you're already doing stupid things (sorry, but that's what it looks like to me). That is going to give cause for you to come to the forum numerous times, asking for help in bailing out when you didn't follow prescribed procedures. Sort of makes those of us who try to help, wonder why we bother, and provides good reason to ignore you. 

If you hope to be successful, read Hoke and follow her procedures. Do that until you well understand what you're doing, so that if you make changes, you have some idea what to expect. 

Harold


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## nickvc (Jun 19, 2012)

Wade a few things for you to ponder on.
You have been given advice by one of the most senior members of this forum, Harold, and seem intent on ignoring it and continuing on your own path.
Who exactly will you listen to if this new trial fails as it almost certainly will, you know nothing about recovery let alone refining precious metals but are putting time restraints on your efforts that you will not meet, there are no quick ways to teach you all you need to know to succeed in your endeavours but there are many variables in what your currently doing that will cause problems and even possible dangers.
Take the kindly advice given and either sell your materials, even just boards or low grade materials,and harvest the rest until you understand the processes. We have several members who advertise their rates for various e scrap items that might give you the necessary funds to keep trading while you can read and learn on the forum how to get to the point of refining your own metals.
There are no magic bullets or shortcuts in this hobby or even business, many of the people who post here have been doing this longer than you have been on the planet, and still learn new things, we want to help but we won't hold your hand through the simple processes and tests you should know by heart and use without thinking.
The point of this post is to make you stop and think instead of blundering on into further trouble and causing harm to either you, your family, your neighbours or the environment and potentially losing your values through lack of understanding. It's all laid out here in plain language and discussed fully by many very knowledgable members but you need to do your part and study to get to the point that you can follow what exactly is been discussed.


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## wade brenckle (Jun 19, 2012)

Wasnt tring for a short cut. not at all. after dealing with shors' process,i was tring to use up my storm preciptant,that stuff is expensive. iv been in hoke every day. i was thinking the book being about 80 yrs old that storm werent around yet is all. so i take it flush the storm! i have no problem with that at all. i like how the sulphur dioxide gas works, only no luck locating any. can anyone point me to a supplier. hope no haz mat fee's apply. you guys know this in and out. i will never try to improve what you do. i do thank you for all the info on this forum. i read some after i lose sunlight daily. i do get lost when all the chemical makeup writing, and formulas come up though.


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## wade brenckle (Jun 19, 2012)

was reading back at my 1st posts, Geo sugested a test when i was using sub zero, im going to try with tre real AR to see what happens.


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## wade brenckle (Jun 20, 2012)

I have aquired some batery acid from auto zone. going outside in 5 min to take out water to start removing nitric from the solution. I do have a gallon of old (3 Months) solution from the sub zero mix. accidently mixed 1/2 gallon that was netralized with urea with 1/2 gallon that was still hot. my questiun here is can i treat it as if it were still hot with nitric,even if i were to add a lil nitric. Then remove it with sulfuric? Thank you guys for all you put up in this forum, learning all the time.


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## wade brenckle (Jun 21, 2012)

I made my sulfuric yesterday. Today I used it to remove the nitric. And I have to say, much more easer than urea or baking soda! Where were you guys and hoke, when I was traped by them other guys ? Took about 3 1/2 hours to fnish the job. Think I had the heat a little low at first. When it started to let off vapors. I added the sulfuric 1 oz at a time. Used 2 oz's to the half gallon mix. When I added the sulfric there were a few brown fumes. After a bit it started to cling to the sides of the dish and my stirer, making little ice looking films on the mix and the dish. Did my best to keep this pushed down. After awhile I added the pure hydrachloric a little at a time. I was expecting brown fumes but only got tiny brown bubbles. The hcl left a thin layer of darkish mix on top of my stuff. I had to work hard keeping that mixing well. After a good while the bubbles started to come up green or clear. I am thinking that this means that the nitric is out. The book says I will need another evapoation, or two. 
how do I know if I need that,that all the nitric is out ? If I do it again, I already have the syrup that I was looking for. What do I do to start the 2nd evapoation process ? Thank you guys ,and the hoke book for making this a fun thing and not a pain like them other guys. Loving It !


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## wade brenckle (Jun 28, 2012)

Added a pinch of pinch of sodium nitrite to a small sample of my brew. Got a small reaction, little fumes, so now evaporating again. Success is sure to come!


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## Geo (Jun 28, 2012)

if you are trying to remove nitric acid, you shouldnt add more nitrate. as you evaporate to a syrup, carefully add hcl while still a little warm. 

if all else fails, and you probably should have considered this first, you can cement values using copper (like a piece of pipe). just make sure the solution is on the acidic side and it should drop any precious metal out of solution and then you can start over.


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## wade brenckle (Jun 28, 2012)

It was mixed with 4 parts water. Now I'm just evapoating it down again, just as the 1st time. Adding just a little hydrochloric as per the book, maby a little, not much more sulfuric. Looking good so far. Not going quite as fast as the 1st time though. Why not ?


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## Geo (Jun 28, 2012)

when the reaction slows, its an indication that the nitric is consumed.after this, you could try to precipitate the gold.


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## wade brenckle (Jul 15, 2012)

I work outdoors and all this rain had me shut in quite a bit. But finaly evaped for the 3rd time, let settle 30 hours after adding 4 pt's water to 1pt mix, took out 1 oz and added some sodium nitrite, got more brown fumes and foam. I read in hoke that when useing ferrus sulfate, you can add more and mor till the reaction stops and then the gold will fall. The question I'm asking now is will adding more sodium nitrite do the same thing ? Use up the remaning nitric ? If I attempt to evaperate again, would it be best to use sulfuric acid or hydrocloric acid, or a little of both ? On the previous Evapoations I used a little of both. The last test I ran with the 1 oz, I let sit out side. It rained, got a little water in it, but also some brown mud at the bottom. Still sitting there. I sure would like to hear, Thats Gold There Boy!


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## butcher (Jul 15, 2012)

wade brenckle,

I just read this thread, and would like to help, I will not harp about reading Hokes book as it sounds like you have started reading it.

I do have a question or two, are you sure it is nitrite that your using to try and precipitate gold with, and not nitrate, notice the ending in these names they tell how many oxygen atoms, these names are different, as well as the chemicals, these two chemicals will act very different in your solution, and both have different uses in recovery or refining.

Are you sure there is gold in solution, I see nothing of a positive test result of the solution.

Also I understand you wanting badly to make this work, and get your gold, but also I feel you you still do not understand enough yet to be able to, my suggestion from reading what you have written and the questions your asking is to cement the values from solution using a thick bar of copper metal, a copper buss bar out of an electrical panel is good for this, this will cement your values from solution, brush off any powder from the bar wash it and store in plastic bag for use later, let these cemented powders settle well, then carefully decant liquids, the powders can be washed, dried and stored for refining later, or melted and sold to a refiner (if there is value), the reason I say if they have value is just because you dissolved a material that had gold it does not necessarily mean that you have gold in solution, many times someone new will put aqua regia (or a poor-mans similar to what you used) onto some gold bearing materials with base metals included, just to have all of the gold temporarily dissolve and then re-plate back out of solution onto to the base metals left or base metals still hidden inside the material they attempt to leach, and later find the solution they just absolutely knew had gold dissolved in it was barren (their gold was discarded with the trash they had leached).

The fastest way to get gold is to slow down and learn, believe it or not you will get more gold by not refining (until the understanding is gained), but by reading CM Hokes (and gaining that understanding), attempting to refine without that understanding or reading is one of the fastest ways to learn to loose your gold. 

Well I guess I just cannot help myself, I find myself harping to read Hokes book, work on the experiments she teaches, get an understanding of the chemistry of these metals and acid before trying desperately to get gold, this way you have a good chance of not throwing away your gold.

Just like others here, I feel this is your best bet of you getting your gold with Hokes help.
Also I feel you should reread this thread, look at the advice you have been given here, some of the most knowledgeable people in this area have given you advice, although it may not tell you how to get gold out of this particular leach, but following their advice will get you on the right track to get the understanding you need to be able to do this work successfully.


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## wade brenckle (Jul 15, 2012)

Most positive ! I bought 2, 5 lb pails. In fact they tried to sell me nitrate. I read Hoke a few times before every process. I promise I do ! I am just making sure that all is as expected to be. i do not want a big boom, or a huge red cloud. Being as safe as I can. I know from hoke that copperas can be added till it uses up the nitric. And since the reaction I am getting is from the nitric, was thinking it would be used up. Thats why I asked before I wasted my time, or made a BooBoo.! I found a place not far I can get most anything. I have about 5 gallons both nitric and hydrocloric in heavy guage blue pails wit all the hasmat logos on then. After the fiasco I went through with shore, I wont use anything but the real deal. I can get sulphur dioxide gas, But it is in liquid form in the bottle. Like liquid oxygen. I need a evaporater for the bottle, and the price of that is out there. Hoke says that is about the best to use according to my application. I just cant afford it. Anyway thanks for such a fast responce, hope your still here now.


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## Geo (Jul 16, 2012)

take a small sample of the brown mud and dissolve it in a few drops of hcl and a drop or two of bleach. test the resulting solution with stannous chloride. its really the only way to know for sure.


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## wade brenckle (Jul 16, 2012)

that will say what ? au or not, or free nitric byby


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## Geo (Jul 16, 2012)

it will let you know if your brown mud is gold. you may have precipitated some out of solution and you need to know what it is.if it is gold, what ever you did to precipitate it worked. if you say you left the solution and the mud was there when you came back, you may be too impatient and not giving the reaction time to work.


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## Harold_V (Jul 16, 2012)

wade brenckle said:


> I can get sulphur dioxide gas, But it is in liquid form in the bottle. Like liquid oxygen. I need a evaporater for the bottle,


No, you don't. All you need is a method to attach a hose to the bottle. You don't even need a regulator, for you can use the valve on the bottle to regulate the flow of gaseous SO2. 
Understand that the liquid SO2 is much like liquid propane. Above the fluid line there is gas, which is constantly being replaced by the evaporation of more fluid, as you consume the already present gas. Unless the bottle in question is exceedingly small, you won't run out of gas when precipitating, even with a large volume of gold. 

Be advised that when you crack the valve on a bottle of SO2, you have the full pressure of the gas in the bottle. A small opening of the valve is all that is required to establish an acceptable flow. You can judge the volume by observing the bubbles that flow from the glass tube you use to insert the gas. I used a 3/8" glass tube, inserted within a quarter inch of the bottom of the vessel. When you crack the valve, once air is purged, you'll notice the bubbles shrink immediately. When you have an acceptable flow, they won't reach the surface, but will be totally absorbed in to the solution. If any hit the surface, you're wasting the gas. 

I used bottled SO2 for years. Once you've used it, you won't want to go back to anything else. 

Harold


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## wade brenckle (Jul 16, 2012)

Then they just tried to sell me a evaporator/regulator ! I'll look into getting some, thanks. That reads like its the best and easiest way.


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## wade brenckle (Jul 16, 2012)

I do need to make some stannous, trying to buy some tin powder. Probably better than using 95% from solder. The small sample I tested that was rained on, I drained off the liquid, the mud stayed thick on the bottom. I added some hot water to rinse it, ant the brown fell fast. Letting it settle awhile before repeating. I added a small (very) nitrite to the drained liquid, no reaction but a tiny amount of mud looking stuff that fell. I suspect though that it was just the nitrite falling through, it happened so fast. Maby it did use up the nitric that was left in the solution. I am waiting for a responce from the company I bought my nitric and hcl from on the % of the hcl so I can do sone phone boards and fingers in the ap. Just got a call, my hcl is %32. To work I go.


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