# Getting the mercury out SAFELY!



## Tinker Terry (Jun 9, 2013)

I have read that there is mercury present in many computer parts. In chips and PCBs as well. So far the only way that I have found (thanks Hoke) to confine mercury is to distill it. So what if I put chopped up boards and chips in a stainless steel cooker with condenser attached? My idea is to put the chopped boards and chips etc in the pressure cooker in a bath of distilled H2O and Lye. Lye and heat seems to work well for removing fingers from board fragments. But I am aware of the danger of airborne mercury vapours being produced as well. So will the mercury vapors react with stainless steel? Can I use steel or stainless steel tubing rather than iron pipe? Remember my main purpose is not to refine the mercury but rather to gather it for later refining, keep it out of the environment and last but not least for health and safety. My end goal is a system that captures all reuseables from e-wastes. As well as recycling my acids etc by reusing/renewing them using electrowinning and filtering. .


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## solar_plasma (Jun 9, 2013)

> I have read that there is mercury present in many computer parts.


Where did you read this?

The only part I know, is the battery could contain Hg.

Avoid it! Leave it to the big boys.


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## g_axelsson (Jun 9, 2013)

Where did you read there is mercury in chips and PCB:s?
Any reference?

The only place I have run into mercury is in mercury whetted relays and mercury oxide batteries from the seventies. I always collect it and turns it in as hazardous material.

Göran


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## Palladium (Jun 10, 2013)

The real safety issue lies not in the mercury i think, but in the fact of do you know what hot Sodium hydroxide mixed in water and place under pressure will do if it explodes? Hell just sodium hydroxide dissolved in water and heated is dangerous enough. You better respect it more so than acids when it comes to human flesh or your eyes. Not kicking you here just making you aware.


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## Geo (Jun 10, 2013)

i do not recommend processing anything with mercury but if you must and health issues aside, use a retort. you can either buy one or make your own. remember, after using whatever you use, it will forever be contaminated and should be treated as such.


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## patnor1011 (Jun 10, 2013)

You are trying to invent wheel.

There is way to effectively process electronics and get paid for all metal they contain. 
However it is not possible to do it in home, shed, garden, pressure cooker, lye bath....
You will not succeed and what you create will be mountain of hazardous waste.

If you plan to make money by collecting scrap, sorting it and then selling to highest buyer then yes you are in the money. 
The second you start thinking about chemicals and processing you are moving from profitable venture in to hobby area. No matter how hard you will try you are not going to be able to effectively process, recover and refine everything. 
There are companies which can do it for you for a fee. 

I know you do not believe, you think that you can do it all yourself. No need to argue, you just need to try that. 
I was in your shoes couple of years back. I am glad I stopped in right time.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 10, 2013)

There is one more problem with Hg. I don't know the laws in your country, but here there are a book shelf full of restrictions about storage, usage and transport, especially if you do it for professional business and as a private person you will probably not find anyone,who will buy it from you....rather they would take money for taking it as hazardous waste.


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## resabed01 (Jun 10, 2013)

Tinker Terry said:


> I have read that there is mercury present in many computer parts. In chips and PCBs as well.



As the others pointed out, use of mercury in electronics is very limited to a few aspects. I suspect the information you read somewhere was flawed and is misguiding you. While it's true you'll find mercury in some old batteries, reed relays and CCFL tubes, it really has no use in electronics such as your common computer.
Your best bet would be to study the different components that make up electronic assemblies so you can easily identify which have PMs, which pose a hazard and which are worthless..


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## Tinker Terry (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks everyone who responded. It appears that the information I got was flawed and my concerns unwarranted. 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13439
[quote patnor1011]
Boards are complicated matter. You cant just incinerate them. Way too much of toxic substances inside like flame retardants, dioxins, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), cadmium, beryllium, chromium, radioactive isotopes, *mercury*, lead tin solder..... [End quote]
Further reseach (google search) leads me to the belief that mercury use in computers/electonics is confined to batteries and LCD screens (the backlight bulbs. There is also vague mention of mercury in older computers. I have some very old computers 8086 and 8088s as well as some old commodores. Some of the old computers I have date back to the 70s and 80s. Is there a chance that there may be any mercury contained in the chips or boards of these? Forewarned is fore-armed.
This ols pressure cooker still looks like a usefull bit of apparatus as it is well sealed except for the two openings in the lid, lockes securely and has a built in back suction relief valve. It should be usefull as a containment or something. Perhaps coating the inside surfaces with some kind of acid/fume proof paint or epoxy would make it more usefull. Any ideas or suggestions?


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## gold4mike (Jun 11, 2013)

I have some old "mercury wetted relays" that I've been wondering what to do with. I don't want to spread contamination so I haven't broken them apart or removed them from their boards.

I was thinking of making a retort to recover the mercury but would still have the problem of what to do with the mercury that was recovered.

Any suggestions?


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## Geo (Jun 11, 2013)

shipping mercury is almost impossible because it is hazmat with certain conditions. from what i understand, its shipped in glass containers and it has to be shipped by certain certified carriers. you can try and find a local buyer who buys mercury. we have one locally but will not give clean prices no matter whatever it came from. if you can not find a buyer, you have two options really. reclaim the mercury and wait to find a buyer or send the boards to the chemical dump at the landfill.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 12, 2013)

> This ols pressure cooker still looks like a usefull bit of apparatus as it is well sealed except for the two openings in the lid, lockes securely and has a built in back suction relief valve. It should be usefull as a containment or something. Perhaps coating the inside surfaces with some kind of acid/fume proof paint or epoxy would make it more usefull. Any ideas or suggestions?



No easy coating will work. Maybe if you'd chrome plating it. But I guess not.

Maybe it could be used to evaporate water from neutralized waste solutions?


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## everydayisalesson (Jun 12, 2013)

Hey gold4mike, what Hokes said about using mercury to grab gold and then separating mercury from gold with a potato actually works and is still in use by placer miners in North Carolina. I met a few guys while vacationing down at Vein mountain close to Ashville. The one guy said that reclaiming from potato isn't hard at all, I thought he was crazy until I read it in Hokes book. He said he bought a small vile 20 years ago and just reuses it and pretty much has everything he started with.


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## everydayisalesson (Jun 12, 2013)

I apologize, I should have been more specific. They said this is only for fine gold recovery from black sands. Out of the environment, I don't think they would use it by the river. I only mentioned it because it may be helpful, I have never tried this myself.


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## butcher (Jun 12, 2013)

The use of mercury in mining is outdated, using it today would be like picking cotton by hand when modern farm equipment will do a better job, and collect more cotton much easier.

I live in a mining area, occasionally I see those new miners also who have no idea what they are doing trying to use mercury to recover gold, something they read about, trouble is most of them really do not even know how to properly use or prepare the mercury or the amalgam sheets to collect the gold, they will use old dirty UN-distilled mercury which really does not amalgam well with gold, and then many will do stupid things like trying to recover gold squeezing out excess mercury in the Chamois leather, and burn off the mercury from the amalgam wad in a potato, or skillet, putting toxic fumes in the air and condensing the mercury in surrounding area contaminating every thing around the site (the stupid old miner tricks), yes it will work, but so will getting off of your new combine and begin picking cotton by hand, trouble is the miners who do this have no clue of the danger they are putting themselves in, or they just do not care, what is worse they either do not know or care about all of the other people they can be poisoning by releasing mercury into the environment.

Over hundreds of years ago miners did dump tons of mercury into our streams and rivers, using it in sluice boxes, and on amalgam plates, and even in panning, much of that mercury is still in our streams and rivers still poisoning people today, one and a half century’s later.

Yes mercury is a natural element and can even be mined in some places where mountains even ooze the liquid metal from the rock, but in our river and especially in our air it is very dangerous, yes it has always been in our air and always will be, volcanoes, or forests fires can put tons of its toxic fumes into our air, where it can circle the globe about twice. 

There is really no use for mercury in mining nowadays, there are such better and safer methods of recovery, their is no use for it in recovery or refining of precious metals, but sometimes in recovery they do have to deal with it, like in dental waste, but when we do we should only do so after having a good understanding of it dangers and how to deal with it properly, suggesting burning it in a potato is just plain nonsense and a deadly stupid idea, even worse than picking cotton by hand when you have proper, safe and modern methods, today, if it had to be done a retort properly used to distill and condense the mercury back to the metal can keep you from poisoning yourself and others. 

I had a major ordeal with mercury since I have joined the forum, it cost me dearly, almost cost me my home and everything I have worked for my whole life, it even almost cost me my freedom, I came close to going to prison, had all kinds of EPA, DEQ, detectives armed federal agents and marshals come to my home waking me to search though my property, home, barn and lab, I still have about 20 pounds in the barn, and showed it to them, they used sniffing tools to search everything for mercury fumes including my home and shoes, I have never spilled a drop of it anywhere, so the only place their equipment detected mercury was when they asked me to open the storage bottle I had in the barn, no telling what kind of trouble I would have gotten into if that machine, would have detected a trace of mercury out side of the bottle anywhere on my property, they most likely would have condemned my property and charged me for a million dollar cleanup, if that machine would have as much as chirped.

I was guilty of stupidity, trying to mail a few pounds of mercury to another member who needed it in a mercury operated vacuum pump for his lab-work, I really did not think that much about it, I have dealt with mercury my whole life, had plenty I collected over the years, I could send him some to help him out, and even asked how to package it, what I did not know was the laws, and how serious of the trouble you can get into when it comes to if shipping mercury, well I packaged up 17 pounds, it was in the cold snow here at the time, but when it arrived at a heated UPS station, well as you know mercury expands, what I did not figure on, that it being a heavy metal liquid would expand and force its liquid out of even a tightly closed bottle cap, and out of the sealed plastic bag and out of a screwed shut plywood crate, spilling a dimes size drop of mercury out onto a conveyer belt in a hot UPS center, they shut down the UPS station, brought in Hazmat teams and air conditioning equipment, and law enforcement, UPS shut down the shipping center replaced all of the equipment in the station and UPS sued me for the Hazmat cleanup, replacing and re-machining all of the equipment in the plant, including upgrading the electrical and new transformers and other electrical equipment, the plants down time, disruption of shipping, and employees wages and so on…

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x286841182/Ohio-EPA-investigates-reports-of-mercury-spill-at-UPS#axzz2VyivC130

I even had UPS detective call my local sheriff telling them I had guns and did not like cops, they wanted a sheriff escort out to my property, to ask me questions and these city detectives were afraid to come talk to an ole country boy, this call to the sheriff was also in my local news paper.

And if you do not think the government is not watching this forum, or has access to everything you have ever written on this forum, even in your private email or on the phone, think again, I know for a fact there were detectives on the forum, posing as members, even going so far as to try and set traps for members who were discussing mercury, even asking to buy some, and they had copies of my private emails and phone calls. I wouldn't be surprised if these government officials do not check out a few of the topics we discuss here on the forum like nitric acid, or selling gold and paying taxes.

Well I guess I just cringe when I see mercury discussed on the forum. 
And I also cringe at the thought of some dumb miner burning mercury in a potato, for a tiny bit of gold which could have been acquired easier and better with another more modern method.


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## everydayisalesson (Jun 12, 2013)

Thank you. butcher. I guess my thoughts of him being crazy was on the money. Like, I said, I have yet to do anything mentioned on the forum. Still not even sure if I will ever try but the information is great...Mike


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## solar_plasma (Jun 12, 2013)

> And if you do not think the government is not watching this forum



Ofcourse they do. Think how many keywords in here fit to things, they have to keep an eye on, - though it will not be the most alarming keywords. And I guess of all forums they have to watch, this is the one, they love the most, because here they learn so much about chemistry and its dangers, which will make them even better to their work, than they (I hope and believe) already are.


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## kkmonte (Jun 12, 2013)

LOL Butcher is famous! and come on, dime size amount?!?! It says : “It is our understanding that, somewhere along the line, some package broke open, spilling 16 to 17 pounds of mercury,”

And you know what they say, it it's printed on the internet, it's true!


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## gold4mike (Jun 12, 2013)

It sounds like the annual Hazardous Materials Collection Day we have here, sponsored by the local chemical plants, is where these relays will end up. 

I have no interest in turning my residence into an EPA Superfund site!


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## Geo (Jun 12, 2013)

my father and i were panning on a GPAA claim in Georgia and i reclaimed well over a pound of liquid mercury by panning. the only thing i can figure is it was an old mining camp and either was very wasteful or had a bad spill. it was a place many people liked to vacation and fish. by using a round point shovel, i was able to collect that amount in a week. just thinking about it, i imagine i reclaimed very little of what was there. after straining through coffee filters, i did reclaim over an ounce of gold. of course, at the time it was worth less than $800 an ounce. as i have been told later, the entire area has since been stripped by local prospectors that knew of the find.


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## Palladium (Jun 12, 2013)

Maybe people have heard me say it before, but if you didn't hear it Butcher is 100% correct in the fact that this forum is monitored. I have played a game of cat and mouse here on the forum for quiet awhile with somebody i have yet to identify. They are good at what they do and i know this because i'm good at what i do. They have went out of their way to let me know they was watching while i was watching them. They like the game and so do i. I wish i could say more, but ....... Matter of fact if your reading this Hello !


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## solar_plasma (Jun 13, 2013)

Thinking of all the threats today, I don't think such monitoring is that bad at all. It's a balance between individual freedom and public safety. If this helps them to get some really evil or misguided individuals, - they are welcome. I believe their best jobs will not be publicised in the media or at least will be hidden in short articles.


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## Palladium (Jun 13, 2013)

Yeah............ I'm good protecting my own safety and don't need people telling me what's good for me or in my best interest and against my will. I won't sacrifice my personal god given rights and liberties for the sake false security. Does anybody really feel safe? Safe from whom? WHO is the real threat against against your liberties? Oh by the way look what happened in my neck of the woods this weekend. http://www.wsfa.com/story/22554531/al-gov-orders-investigation-after-dna-blood-samples-collected-at-roadblocks I guess that's not a problem because off duty officers who VOLUNTEERED to help out a non government private entity conduct private research and that was under written by a Fed gov agency, supported by another government agency, but used the words "we ask for volunteers to submit DNA". Police officers in uniform with side arms, driving official government cars sitting in the road with theirs lights on and enacting traffic stops for DNA, but it's all legal because they were off duty government officials who were volunteering their time as " Private citizens". This is a test to see how tolerable you are to this and then the next thing you know society accepts it as policy and their goes god knows what rights after that. Worse tv show ever on tv was that show "COPS" Why???? Because the public got comfortable with see people rights violated in front of them on National TV and it was cool to watch. After awhile it become the accepted practice of it happens and that just the way it is syndrome. 
I'm going to leave this alone because this could become political and that's against board policy.

I'm not buying it !!!!!!


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## butcher (Jun 13, 2013)

I will not begin to say How I feel about this issue, as what I would have to say would definitely get political, if I spoke my thoughts on this subject they would most likely ban me from the forum for breaking all of the rules.


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## its-all-a-lie (Jun 13, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> Thinking of all the threats today, I don't think such monitoring is that bad at all. It's a balance between individual freedom and public safety. If this helps them to get some really evil or misguided individuals, - they are welcome. I believe their best jobs will not be publicised in the media or at least will be hidden in short articles.




I will provide my own personal security as well as that of those who are close to me, i have too much invested to leave it to someone who can not be trusted :mrgreen: And as for MY thoughts on them, yeah, nobody wants to hear my rant tonight...


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## Palladium (Jun 13, 2013)

Please turn off your computer and go outside and lie face down on the ground with your hands inter laced.
Someone will assist you as soon as an agent becomes available. :mrgreen:


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## Geo (Jun 13, 2013)

i believe the only people tested actually did sign a consent form and was paid $10 per mouth swab and $50 per blood sample. it is still an invasion of privacy and is one step closer to a national DNA data base to keep track of everyone.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 13, 2013)

But you can thank the police and security organizations,that you never will be forced to use those automatic guns. And in fact, in most real situations you will not have the time to use them. Imagine we would be pushed back to stone age by a global desaster like a large meteroite impact, that would mean anarchy. No police, no safety. You can't be awake all the time. Easy solutions are seldom good solutions. I come from a country, which has a bad history of "easy" solutions.

Our world and society is not perfect, but it's the best we can get and straight that one, we have merited. If this one is too political, it's ok to ban me, but I have to say what has to be said.

Don't get me wrong, I respect your point of views and if I was an american, I might see it the same way.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 13, 2013)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CF4QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fedex.com%2Fus%2Fservices%2Fpdf%2FHazmatShippingGuide.pdf&ei=Luu5UeblH6bF0AH15YCwDQ&usg=AFQjCNHnRfOIgYMYjfzvYKcB0zE5AZ_iow&bvm=bv.47883778,d.dmQ&cad=rja

In Firefox, you can search the pdf for mercury by using Edit/Find/mercury


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## its-all-a-lie (Jun 13, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> But you can thank the police and security organizations,that you never will be forced to use those automatic guns. And in fact, in most real situations you will not have the time to use them. Imagine we would be pushed back to stone age by a global desaster like a large meteroite impact, that would mean anarchy. No police, no safety. You can't be awake all the time. Easy solutions are seldom good solutions. I come from a country, which has a bad history of "easy" solutions.
> 
> Our world and society is not perfect, but it's the best we can get and straight that one, we have merited. If this one is too political, it's ok to ban me, but I have to say what has to be said.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I respect your point of views and if I was an american, I might see it the same way.




This is my last comment on this topic. The reason everyone here (America) is so touchy about their rights being trampled can easily be found in Germanys history. BTW, the weapons pictured are not automatics, the NFA weapons stay in the safe and only a few know they are here.


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## butcher (Jun 13, 2013)

GSP,
Thank you for the document on shipping, honestly I am afraid to mail a letter anymore, I have saved the document and will read through it.
Thanks


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## Tinker Terry (Jun 14, 2013)

Thank everyone for all the valuable input. BTW those guns (which everyone in the www now know you have) are pretty much all classified as restricted weapons here in Canada, where it is illegal to own without being registered, and it is not permitted to take them out of the closet basically without acquiring further permits. Even if you live out in the wilderness, miles from the nearest neighbour it is illegal to take them out and shoot in your own yard.


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## Palladium (Jun 14, 2013)

If the politicians had their way about it they would be illegal here to. Here in the south you can still throw it in the front seat and go off to the chert pit to pop of a few 100 rounds. You will even find the good old boys down at the country store showing off their guns and comparing sizes while talking about Nascar. :mrgreen: 
The south has a culture well versed in guns and their heritage. Now if you tried this in other parts of the country you would be meet with swat just for it being seen.


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## kkmonte (Jun 14, 2013)

LOL, try doing that in Massachusetts! I might get arrested/fined just for looking at that picture of those guns!


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## its-all-a-lie (Jun 14, 2013)

The problem i have with the media and politicians regarding guns is this, the rifles i have pictured are no different than a ruger 10/22 http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Carbine/specSheets/1103.html in its rate of fire and its capability to engage multiple targets in a short period of time. In fact, i am more efficient with the 10/22 than any other weapon i own and noone seems to look at it as a dangerous weapon.


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## Tinker Terry (Jun 14, 2013)

I hear ya. So many people, so misinformed, so much paranoia, so many stupid impractical useless laws. Keeps the politicans in the gravy train, and gives the media something to report. Nobody considers knitting needles dangerous weapons either but they will kill you as surely as a bullet. Enuff politics or we'll all get banned here.


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## Tinker Terry (Jun 14, 2013)

How do I mark this thread "Solved". :?: can't seem to find the butoon.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 14, 2013)

Still wondering why they have to do some monitoring? Everything gets more and more restricted, medical drugs, arms and CHEMICALS (*in order to come back to our topic*). Why? Because there are always people, who overdo. I don't want to say, that you overdo, - but I could get the impression by those posts, if I wasn't that tolerant.


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## butcher (Jun 16, 2013)

Whenever politics, religion or topics such as these come up, everyone knows "I am right" even if others just wish to argue the point, even though they know "I am right" and "they are wrong", so it seems there really is not much reason to go into these discussion except to ague the point, and since the person with the name is "I" is always right and every one already knows it, we see there really is not much reason to keep discussing except to argue a point unnecessarily.

In the above comment you can put your name in the place of I.

Where I live I hear these guns being fired quite often around me, they are very popular around here, and people fire them almost daily (even at night) freely on their own property, or in the woods around here, sometimes it sounds like a war zone, it really does not bother me, around here most everyone is armed, I feel much safer here than I would in some city or place where the honest law abiding citizens would not be, or could not be armed, or did not carry a gun with them, and were only the criminals, and governments were armed. 

If you feel safe where you live and are happy with your gun laws great, (if not then take that up with your government), there are other places where you can discuss your religion and political issues, and argue your points, but this is a gold refining forum, the topic here is not religion or politics, so lets get back to discussing gold.

We all already know you are right with what you believe.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 16, 2013)

That's a very good point, every you and every I is right from their respective point of view. Entirely seen it gives a facetted picture, the truth lies in the relativities of those facettes. That's why nothing is what it seems to be on the first view. This is not as banal and trivial as it seems to be. I'd like to be back on topic, too, so this is something I try to be aware of in chemistry, hazmat accidents and refining: nothing must be what it seems to be on the first view.


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## JHS (Jun 16, 2013)

http://www.charlesedwin.com/mercury.htm


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## solar_plasma (Jun 24, 2013)

it's-all-lie:


> I will provide my own personal security as well as that of those who are close to me



I have thought much about your point of view. I see, the USA are a very big country, where you some places can drive for long time without seeing a human, big cities with getthoes and a wide cliff between rich and poverty, criminality far from what is usual in my home country, - USA is a country of extremes. I guess this is not comparable to germany. I find, there may be circumstances, an armed public is a necessarity.


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## patnor1011 (Jun 24, 2013)

That's not really true statement.
What is crime rate in Switzerland where everyone get to take his rifle home right after he finish his time in army? Armed public is the best deterrent of crime.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 24, 2013)

Let's think about, what would be a realistic crime situation, where a gun could stop the crime. If you are the victim, you will not have the time to use a gun - that's also the argument of the german law. But I would feel quite safe in a texan (?) drugstore with plenty of armed customers. A gun at home makes me quite unsafe, the possibilitiy I could use it for protection is very unlikely, the risc someone finds the key, plays around with the gun or steals it or uses it against myself, it not that unlikely. But that is seen with the eyes of someone who lives in germany.

Switzerland? They wouldn't have much criminality with or without their guns at home....ok, financial crime, human trafficking, smuggling...lots of....do the automatic rifles help...nope. And I really don't know, how you want to use a rifle to protect yourself. Someone who is 200 m away is not really a danger to you, - unless he is an insane sniper. A short weapon may make a sense as stated above. But maybe it's again the difference here and there - the distances are quite smaller here. :lol: If you fire a bullet into the air in germany, you will probably hurting someone when the bullet falls down again :lol: .


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## Palladium (Jun 24, 2013)

Interesting point of view and i agree to some extent. But what would a pistol do for me in a situation like this?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgCiC6qTtjs[/youtube]

Or during a natural disaster like this?

If you shoot one person in a situation like this you better be prepared to shoot them all and for that i need 2 things, stopping power and rapid fire capabilities. Your argument might be just let them have what they want and they will leave. Well once you have surrendered your property what's to stop them from say raping your loved ones or harming your children? The police? Yeah...... I don't think so. I will take my Ar anyday!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYCrMNEdweY[/youtube]


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## solar_plasma (Jun 24, 2013)

And I understand your point to some degree. And ofcourse there are cases, it would be an easy solution, if everyone was equipped like some tactical forces. Looking on the benefits and disadvantages, in the case of the society I am living in,it is good as it is. 

But after a disaster, knowledge, tactics and skills...also social skills and Sun Tsu will be your most powerful weapon to survive and protect your people. A well armed mob with offensive military weapon would be contraproductive. There is always a bigger fish in the lake. A disaster is the end of social networking. All depends on recreation of those networks.



> Your argument might be just let them have what they want and they will leave.



*lol* I am no pacifist. One of the few reasons, why I have served in the army. I like guns and I like to shoot. I have that point of view, because it is the advantageous strategy.

edit:
btw. that katrina disaster went that bad is, because your country is very poorly prepared for disasters.


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## patnor1011 (Jun 25, 2013)

You must think differently. It is not that how can be rifle used to defend yourself but that simple knowledge that there may be rifle in the house will deter criminal from wanting to have a look. It is not only rifle, that was used as example, Swiss government want their citizens armed and ready. They do have small arms and can buy as many as they want. That army rifle is a gift from government. They give them some ammo once a year to go shoot to have some practice. Their crime rate is slow mainly because criminals wont risk getting shot at. I believe that we as people surrendered way too much of our rights and duties to faceless government entities. It is no longer that our representatives represent us but more that we do what few people decide, and just try to have different view and then you will be called with all sort of names.


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## Palladium (Jun 25, 2013)

I like Ireland. I like their fight and determination. Ireland has a very interesting history and has experienced some of the same issues the U.S. has in some regards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics


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## solar_plasma (Jun 25, 2013)

This swiss thing isinteresting, I will read about it the next days.

My opinion about weapon is strongly influenced by the german law about self-defence and defence of a third person and the law about weapon. My point of view is adapted to those laws, so I never get in conflict with them. Here you are allowed to stop a present attack against human or goods with the minimal necessary force possible, - principle of proportionality. In practice this means, use a sword against a knife and you get prisoned, use the spade that accidentally is near you and you will stay free. So, the gun or the tactical knife are the absolutely last things, that would be smart to use for self-defense. If you kill a burglar, who is not armed, you will have very bad cards. If he is running away with stolen goods, you are allowed to stop him, - not more. Without stolen goods, you are not even allowed to shoot in his legs - though in the dark, full of adrenaline, 25 m away, only seconds to react ....the risc he gets more than a flesh wound will be very high.

Important to say, wherever you are in germany, it takes max. 10 minutes (typically 7 min.) until the police is there, maybe max. 40 minutes for a whole swat team. That's pretty safe. And we have not much criminality, where a gun would have helped the victim. Burglaries are typically done by extremely professional gangs from foreign countries often with elite military education or by stupid junkies. Both have no interest in the people in the house. And the stolen goods will be payed by your insurance...the germans have insurances for quite everthing *g*

So, what would probably be smart to do in germany? Be quiet, ring to the police, flee with the family from the house if possible or lock the room door and wait with the weapon in the ready, wether it is a fire extinguisher or a gun.

If I lived in the USA I would do it like the americans do, but here the conditions are different. So, my first critic was wrong.

Here you are responsible for what happens with your guns even when they get stolen. If someone steals your gun and uses it to kill somebody, even accidentally, you will get prisoned. Since it is hard to get weapon here, the concerns the weapon in your house would provocate a burglary are quite high. So you will not have them fastly at hand. There are few cases, having guns is allowed: hunters, sport shooters (not allowed to have it loaded ready at hand), collectors (the collection has to be of important historical value) policemen and other state security personnel (though most of them don't want to have it at home!), securities, possibly on ships and very, very seldom highly endangered persons like jewelers or prosecutors. Further you are always allowed to inherit weapon, though not the ammunition.

The benefit is, in germany it is extremely seldom someone gets killed by a gun.

Whatever, both ways, the US/swiss and the german way, have benefits and disadvantages.


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## Palladium (Jun 25, 2013)

I do find it interesting given the history of your country that your culture feels safe if the fact that you can rely on the police or authorities to protect your life and property. And i don't mean that in a bad way, it's just here in the U.S. the average consensus seems to be to avoid authority figures or not rely on their safety and well being solely at the hand of the government. It use to not be that way! God, Country, and family was our motto. Then of course you have the other side who believes the government is their friend, but hey! When it all jumps off we will see how it goes i guess. Huh! Funny thing is when i look at that motto i realize they have already destroyed the god part of it as well as the family organization part. I guess all that is left is Country?


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## solar_plasma (Jun 25, 2013)

The USA have done a very good job, when they used what worked well from their own law and constitution and even improved it to constitute the new, free germany. It is safe, germany never again will become a dictatorship or a police-state, more safe maybe than even the US.

God has nothing to say in germany, he is private. The family is highly protected by the law. The german constitution secures that if right becomes wrong and wrong becomes right, every citizen has the right *(edit: and duty)* to resistance and we have a strong trisection of powers. Often politicians make decisions, which have to be taken back, because the highest judges judge them to be illegal.

Yes, also here there are elements, who want more "safety" and less freedom. Typically the middle-right wing (CDU/CSU) and here typically only the bavarian home secretary :lol: ...well, I guess it's his job to *try* ...but even the police organisation doesn't want that *rotfl*


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## solar_plasma (Jun 25, 2013)

Often the USA wonders, why germany is not likely to join in some wargames...well, germany is your best quality product. It's just what you have made. If all countries would be like this historical product, there would be peace on earth. :lol:

Though germany would always fight for what is really right.


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## Palladium (Jun 25, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> The USA have done a very good job, *when they used* what worked well from their own law and constitution



You hit the nail on the head ! Lost of people misunderstand peoples stand on the government issue here in the states. I don't hate government one bit. We have to have it. The thing that corrupts government is the politicians we let run the government. Here in the U.S. it's suppose to be a government of the people, by the people, for the people, but instead when the people object to what the government is doing they tell us to sit down and behave like a good little child because we're to stupid to make decisions and that the governments role is to protect us from ourselves. And if you stand up guess what? They have a new word for you "Terrorist, conspiracy theorist, Traitor" Under all those you now get to enjoy the Patriot Act up close and personal. I see a run away government.


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## Palladium (Jun 25, 2013)

Want to know what constitutes "Domestic Terrorism" 

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130621/NEWS/306210322

The FBI is calling the destruction of two crops of genetically engineered sugar beets in Jackson County "economic sabotage" that could lead to charges of domestic terrorism, depending on the outcome of the investigation.

Crime maybe? Domestic terrorism............... really?


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## solar_plasma (Jun 25, 2013)

Hey, you guys have voted for two generations of Bush, or haven't voted at all, - there you go. :lol: Well, ok, I learned, that you cannot vote directly for a president, that makes it more complicated. And I know, your politicians are much more addicted to the industry which lies in the hands of a few families. Very, very complicated. Even a good president like Obama, I guess one of the best you ever had, has hard times trying to do, what is right.

Well I know, political discussions are not allowed in this forum and I believe, this is not political since we don't talk about one party or the other, but are aware of, that every good politician from every party cannot just do, what he knows, is right, but has take care of many influences only to stay where he is.

But before you are going to be unsatisfied, you should start to vote....I can't remember how many voted, but it was much too few for a democratic system.

And regarding your montsanto food....why are you guys over there buying it....the industry goes, where the money is. Here in germany ecological, biological products are the burner in every supermarket.


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## Palladium (Jun 25, 2013)

That's just it. It's not about politics. Your political party doesn't matter because no matter who it is they put in there, they are all out for #1. The whole system is broken. In my opinion of course.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 25, 2013)

Here we are aware of our power as buyers and voters. For maybe 15 years ago, Shell had to learn this. They wanted to sink an oil plattform. The germans stopped buying at shell. Well, I guess the capacity for enthusiasm of the german people is still somewhat.... frightening. 8) :roll: :lol:


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## Mad Oshea (Sep 6, 2015)

I would not retort in Your case, And Yes"I" have done it.(I have one) There are things that You need to know befor a good RETORT. EPA and safety!
First
What are You going to do with the "after RETORT"!
Second is- How is it safe?
I have a gold still and use Mercury to collect the AU, and silver! 
Not safe! I use water and fire in a jar! The water goes back in the snuffer- The fumes go in a WW11 gas cart. under controled conditions. EPA!
If You smell anything. "You just hurt Yourself"! 
So what is it of value to You, to use a retort for a simple buck? 
I use a very complicated retort that has "0" emitions. The cost it well over the recovery rate!. 
Any thing Mercury has contact with is tainted! Via :ANYTHING"! 
Back in the day, I would make "SLICK" Dimes and sell them- Just like Hobo nickels- 
Get the point? A hobo nickl never hurt anyone.. We find murcury in streams all of the time from the past-
Concider what You want for recovery....Mad


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## bswartzwelder (Sep 6, 2015)

You know, it's kind of funny, but they used to make electrical switches which had a canister consisting of 2 contacts and a rather large dollop of mercury. When the switch was in the "OFF" position, the mercury could not touch the contacts. Change to the "on" position and the mercury would bridge the gap between the contacts completing the circuit. At one time, it was "all the rage". 

I have also seen mercury switches for use in flammable or explosive atmospheres such as coal mines. That switch had a small vial with some mercury in it. It also had one contact which was formed into a loop and had a ceramic cup which was held into the loop. The other contact was just a solid wire with a blob on the end. The blob on the end fit neatly into the cup helping hold the cup in place. In one position, the vial was held upright with the mercury in the bottom of the vial. Flipping the vial over caused the mercury to completely cover the loop, ceramic cup, and blob completing the circuit. Since the mercury was in a hermetically sealed vial there was little chance of it escaping. Then the mechanics and the vial were pretty much sealed inside the switch body making an extra layer of safety against the sparks causing an explosion. I'm sure they have been replaced with newer types of switches which are just as safe and contain no mercury.


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## butcher (Sep 6, 2015)

Mercury switches had many uses in industry, many are being replaced with other types of switches, but you can still use, and buy mercury switches for many industrial applications.


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