# Few Silver Refining Questions ^_^ I'm new :D



## alexsalter3d (Jan 26, 2015)

So I am very new to this site, and I've been studying Silver Refining for a good while now. Soaking up as much information as I can before all my gear comes in the post, over this week.

I've got a Kwik Kiln coming in the post. 2 Burner Gas powered. (should do the job fine - Can hold up to 5oz Gold, probably 10oz silver, or other way round)

Got a lot of 1900-1920- Silver coming 925.

I'm going for the Nitric acid method, followed by a copper pipe.

I am just posting here, to try and meet and learn from you all. and make a few refiner friends, I can tell theres some very high level people here which is cool.

One thing I don't understand is.... obviously I'll be following a acid to silver to water formula. 

all I want is a concrete path to follow. So for example..... If I have 100g 925 Silver ---- That will surely be, 2.9ml x100g of Nitric ---- And also 2.9ml x100 of Water??? which I would then mix together in the beaker.? Am I right? that would be a 50/50? As long as people don't use all the chemistry lingo I'll be able to follow along with your answers. 

I will follow the formula because it stops me from over using of course. I'll Also dip in some extra silver to soak up the last bits of acid.

But my largest presumed future problem, is - I can get all the cement out, thats fine, but is there a lot of the tiny tiny sliver flakes still left in the solution?

I would prefer to avoid the electric cathode method, If I could (unless its easily bought as a kit - and only if you guys can supply the links) otherwise I'm worried that if I throw that solution I might be throwing away a lot? 

I thought I should take the cemet out, wash it through the filter, so that I can then hold onto the rest of the solution and not lose it through dilution? This sounds a good idea to me I think. 

I was wondering if any of you guys had any effective ways in recovering the rest out of that solution? If there is much to recover. 

After doing that, if its not too intrusive, I thought of dipping Iron in, to recover my copper, to re use? this i'm not too bothered about /if its too much hard work, I'd like to get the practice of achieving 99 silver first tbh. But I'd love to know, any quick fire helpful facts from you guys, it would help so much. 

Thank you!


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## GotTheBug (Jan 26, 2015)

Look no further, Palladium is the man when it comes to silver.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17233&p=202931#p202931


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## the iron dwarf (Jan 26, 2015)

read all the sticky threads at the top
the book by CM Hoke is a must, you can get a free download here from several members sigs
the book was written many years ago when health and safety and proper waste treatment was often not considered so bear that in mind
learn about safety and how to properly dispose of wastes you make
learn how to test for PMs
learn processes from start to finish and follow it without missing a step
by that time you will have found answers to the questions you have asked and a lot more too


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## torscot (Jan 26, 2015)

You seem really worried about getting that last little bit out of the silver nitrate solution. Here's a quick simple little test to ensure it's all out. After you have dropped your silver with the copper, pour a few ML of solution into a clear plastic, glass or whatever so long as it's an acid proof container. Drop in a few grains of regular table salt, or a few drops hydrochloric acid into it. If you get a white precipitate, your silver has not yet dropped. The white precipitate is silver chloride. No white, no silver. If you get white toss your copper back in the container and walk away. I always do the precipitation part of the job at the end of the day, so I can go home and leave it over night to do its magic without staring at it all night. Do not put the test solution back in with your main solution. It's no fail. No white, no silver, Then your solution can be safely disposed of, it's done its job. 
Good luck, it's a fun hobby. Don't forget, you can reclaim the silver from the .500 fine silver coins also. You sometimes can buy them at a discount because of the low fineness of silver in them. One other thing, once you reduce a coin to unmarked silver bullion, you could have a difficult time selling without an assay. Costs $$. Coins are recognized , so the fineness is accepted. Best thing to recycle is broken tableware, candlesticks jewelry etc. Think twice about the coins, they're a known commodity with a known fineness.


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you for the great reply. I was very worried yeah, I think I was more worried that, even if I find that the solution still holds silver, I was worried it would be too fine for me to get to it via just normal diluting? But maybe all I need to do is add copper and wait.

Yeah I've got loads of silver ware and jewelry coming in the post that I won off eBay, Hallmark d stamped from the early 1900s. 

Do you think I will struggle to sell lots of converted silver ware and stuff that are in bar form then? In the far distant future I mean though, when I've made a few 1kg?

I keep looking for UK assayer prices, but sadly can't find anything.

Thank you for reading and helping me  

I tested my propane torch last night, more stuff coming in post today!


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## kurtak (Jan 27, 2015)

do you understand that when cementing silver from silver nitrate (with copper) you are not getting back pure silver 

cementing is a "recovery" process - not a "refining" process - your silver will only be around 98% (plus or minus depending on a number of factors)

You still need to run it through a silver cell to get to your 99.9 plus pure silver

Kurt


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 27, 2015)

I can work with those factors though? To increase the percentage can't I. 

Are the silver cells hard to buy/build? 

Silver cell will probably be too much for me at the moment. 

For me at the moment 98-99℅ will be great , I can always process the stored bars later on to achieve higher purity.


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 27, 2015)

Some of my set up came in post today!


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## the iron dwarf (Jan 27, 2015)

remember that you cannot do this sort of thing in your home, you will be producing lots of toxic fumes that you need to deal with and make sure you know how to deal with waste before you make it


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## GotTheBug (Jan 27, 2015)

You mentioned "struggling to sell", so my first question is; Are you doing this for profit or for learning? I don't know about the UK, but here we have some rules about buying and selling precious metals. For instance, if I walked into a place where they did not know me, they would want to have the lot assayed before paying out, and many charge $75 for the assay alone, meaning at current prices I would basically kiss 3 ounces goodbye.


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## alexxx (Jan 27, 2015)

GotTheBug said:


> You mentioned "struggling to sell", so my first question is; Are you doing this for profit or for learning? I don't know about the UK, but here we have some rules about buying and selling precious metals. For instance, if I walked into a place where they did not know me, they would want to have the lot assayed before paying out, and many charge $75 for the assay alone, meaning at current prices I would basically kiss 3 ounces goodbye.



Interesting question indeed..

If you are doing a refining step for profit, well, cementing silver will just put you at lost (acid costs, electricity, gas, copper, filters... and time of course)... No point in refining if you cant get a prime when selling your material.
Better to sell directly the coins, at least your buyer will know what they are made off... Your buyer wont have to assay a bar of unknown metals...

No refining needed if your goal is to make a profit... And no point in refining up to .999 if you cant get a prime when selling...

If it's for a hobby, that's a different story... 

Be safe, read Hoke... twice... And read the book once more after that...

Alex


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## torscot (Jan 27, 2015)

alexsalter3d, I see you're from the UK. I am from the colonies, Canada. Those fellows made good points,Listen to them, especially the red smoke that your reaction will produce. it's deadly in quantity, and if you do this indoors, anything that will rust will be rusted by the next day, Do it outdoors, and with the neighbors you like up wind from your operation. Don`t go out and buy an Israeli army surplus gas mask. NO mask stops these fumes. 
Here in Canada I can get an easy 85% of spot for anything silver, I get a good premium on 99+% product only. Your silver coins you mention in your 1st post, you can get 95% spot for them as is, you turn them into an unmarked bar, you'll get less. That`s why I mentioned the 500 fine silver coins. No one wants them here, so I pick them up at a good discount from some of the coin shops locally. There's a couple of fellows from the UK that know their stuff on this forum, and perhaps they'll chime in regarding payouts in the UK. Go slow, cut your items into real small pieces, and do a small batch to learn, You don't lose much when you make your mistake, and you will..... Something else, it's marked .925 (92.5%), but after processing expect returns around 88-91% I have never had a batch come out at 92.5% Silversmiths must be a frugal lot. Something else for a true beginner. Sterling handled knives, have steel blades, and the handles are filled with a `clay, or plaster filler. Some candlesticks etc. have weighted bases, so be careful on ebay, some sellers give a total weight including filler. 

Silver cells, look up the posts in silver for a stainless steel cell. So,so simple, and then you can get 99+ fine.

One other thing. Don't quit your day job.


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you for the great replies!

I will do it outside and up wind and when everyone is at work anyway

I best say I'm doing it for fun.

The only way I can see it is, after a few years of processing 925 to 99, as a collection, the assay then wouldn't feel like as much to me I guess. 

I guess its going to be like a form of saving for me? But at a lose, but I guess that lose can be the cost of the hobby, haha. 

I'm glad that you said that a Stainless steel cell wouldn't nessessaryly be to hard for me.

Thank you, I will keep you all updated


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## solar_plasma (Jan 28, 2015)

This antique sterling bowl would go for twice of the silver value in german ebay. The six small spoons, too.


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## Harold_V (Jan 28, 2015)

alexsalter3d said:


> I'm glad that you said that a Stainless steel cell wouldn't nessessaryly be to hard for me.


Something as simple as a stainless steel bowl can be a silver parting cell. Also, steam tables (restaurants) are typically filled with various stainless vessels. You should be able to find something that suits the need. It need not be custom built. 

Harold


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## necromancer (Jan 28, 2015)

Harold_V said:


> alexsalter3d said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad that you said that a Stainless steel cell wouldn't nessessaryly be to hard for me.
> ...



items like this http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=21739&p=225648&hilit=+steam#p225648 can be found easy.

or bought new about $35.00


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for all your advice guys! 

I'm still unsure of the stance of nitric acid in the UK though... You can buy it on Amazon.co.uk...

Here's some more refinery stuff that's come in the post! And some more silver!


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## Charles Connor (Jan 28, 2015)

I would suggest you to use bigger beakers instead of erlenmeyers, if you are going the nitric method, or doing it in small ammounts to prevent boil-overs...just small details to have in mind...


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## torscot (Jan 28, 2015)

You can do this on a real budget. You spent more on your scale than I did for my whole original set up. Visit your local thrift shop, second hand shop, charity donation shop. A good pyrex dish, or glass pot with a lid. Even an old used coffee pot, will get you started. A few pound each. An old hot plate, again a few quid . There's your set up for reducing your silver to silver nitrate. One piece of kit you missed is a vacuum filter. If you've still got some money to spend. check ebay. I bought one, and it saves so much time in the filtering process. Check the video "silver refining complete process for the amateur," by kadriver here on the forum. He uses one on the video. 
That 33 gram lot on your scale is your perfect test lot. It should give you 30 grams, Just under an ounce pure.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 28, 2015)

Charles Connor said:


> I would suggest you to use bigger beakers instead of erlenmeyers, if you are going the nitric method, or doing it in small ammounts to prevent boil-overs...just small details to have in mind...


I agree. Beakers are better dissolving vessels than erlenmeyer flasks for what you're doing. The erlenmeyers are harder to handle after the material is dissolved.


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 29, 2015)

The scales cost me 7$ 

Let's not be over critical here though guys, not only are there many good reasons to buy small beakers and or flasks, /budget/operation size/ /space /hazard control 

But also this hobby is probably going to be one of the biggest money burners that I've ever done. That's not a bad thing, but it does mean I'm not really going to be that attached to my starting budget that I had. Obviously I'm doing it all for the fun/ experience. Which ar always my two main goals with any hobby in the first time. 

Ontop of that I still don't know how long the hobby will last with this talk of nitric being prohibited in UK. 

I've got these beakers which are small. And flasks up to 1000ml that are in previous photo. And also! One demi jar. Which is massive. Pouring / and filter maybe difficult maybe? With small neck things? Is that what your all getting at? But tbh I think its doable 

Plus I've ran out of budget for a vacume filter, and the same for electrolysis for the moment. But I think I can cope for now. Things still a lot I can still achieve. And elctro them later. 

Thanks


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## torscot (Jan 29, 2015)

Sorry, if I came across that way, I was trying to help you keep some money in your pocket. You might as well have it than someone else. I was wrong, I paid more for my original set up than your you for your scales! :lol: 

Nitric, here in Canada is also controlled, as the Gov. considers everyone to be making nasty things with it. You must show a business number, and or ID. I think that's the same as your VAT # in the UK. You have to be a business. So here's hoping you are,.... or have a good friend who is. There have to be suppliers in the UK. Find their contacts. call them up. Talk like you're in business. You'll more than likely have to state what it's used for. "for the recovery of precious metals". They'll state their terms and conditions, You should be able to put your hands on some. The forum here has the formula for making nitric, you'll have to look that one up. I don't know much about it.


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 29, 2015)

Thank you for your help!


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## alexsalter3d (Jan 31, 2015)

I received some more stuff in the post! 

Graphite stirring rod/moulds, fire mat, borax, stuff like that.

Here's also another pic of it all together so far.

I have one very si ple question. 

For example.... Some people do this.... They have a specific amount of silver.... They weigh it.... They then use the commonly known ratio to work out how much nitric acid they shall require.

They then add the correct amount of water as well.

After disollving they add a little extra silver to make sure the nitric is used up.

But here's my question.... Some people now... Just before dropping the silver with copper.... They now.... Dilute the silver nitrate with 2-4times the amount of water, but why? 

Here's my guess.... Is this to increase copper dropping surface area? I hope I'm right!


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## 4metals (Jan 31, 2015)

I would guess they dilute the silver nitrate because a more dilute solution will fall off the copper slabs easier than a heavy concentrate will. 

You can only increase the copper dropping surface area by increasing the area of the copper the solution is exposed to.


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## Palladium (Jan 31, 2015)

4metals is right as always. The concentrated solution will crust up quick and block out the silver nitrate from making contact with the cu. The dilute solution allows fluffy crystals to form and fall off. Agitation is essential also. I dilute mine 2-3 the volume, but the difference between hobby and commercial is the more waste you generate the more you have to dispose of. Those evaporators 4metals recommends are the cats meow.


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## kurtak (Feb 1, 2015)

Palladium said:


> Those evaporators 4metals recommends are the cats meow.



Did I miss something in this thread - or is that in another thread somewhere :?: (which I also must have missed)

I am very interested in this :!: 

Kurt


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## g_axelsson (Feb 1, 2015)

kurtak said:


> Palladium said:
> 
> 
> > Those evaporators 4metals recommends are the cats meow.
> ...


I think this will answer your question.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=+evaporators&author_id=6914

Göran


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## kurtak (Feb 2, 2015)

Goran thanks

Looks expencive - time to start thinking about building a DIY model :mrgreen: 

Kurt


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## rickbb (Feb 2, 2015)

I see in your pic you have a filter mask. I'm glad your thinking safety, but please don't expect that to prevent you from inhaling toxic fumes. It won't do it.

You should depend on a good exhaust system and a good fresh air intake system to work in, not a mask/respirator. They don't make one that will filter out the kinds of fumes/vapors that metal refining generates.


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## kurtak (Feb 2, 2015)

rickbb said:


> I see in your pic you have a filter mask. I'm glad your thinking safety, but please don't expect that to prevent you from inhaling toxic fumes. It won't do it.
> 
> You should depend on a good exhaust system and a good fresh air intake system to work in, not a mask/respirator. They don't make one that will filter out the kinds of fumes/vapors that metal refining generates.



This is absolutely correct

NO - cartridge type respirator will filter out the NOx fumes produced by nitric when dissolving metals with it (& other fumes)

At the very least you need to work out side - up wind - with a fan --- or you need a fume hood (better) & a scrubbing system (preferred) 

Kurt

Edit to correct work down wind to work up wind


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