# First time using AP method



## kane333 (Apr 10, 2013)

Hi all. 2 days ago, I started my first attempt at the AP process with a little over 800 grams of fingers. Using Lazer Steves method, I have a small 2 gallon bucket inside a 3 gallon mop bucket. The problem with the 3 gallon bucket is, it has a small hump in the bottom (mop bucket from Walmart) and the smaller bucket sits up higher than it would in a normal flat bottom bucket. So to cover all the fingers, I ended up using 8 cups HCL and 4 cups H2O2 to cover them all. After 2 days of intermittent agitation, this is what the solution looks like. Very dark. Is that normal?








I sprayed the fingers down with a spray bottle and a lot of the foils came off with no problem but some of the fingers look like the solution barely touched them, even with halfway decent agitation.






The wider white boards aren't fingers but came from RF antennae from a bunch of NIC cards I got the fingers off of also. There were about 25 of these. I hope the solder doesn't cause me problems. Any reprimands would be appreciated.


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## philddreamer (Apr 10, 2013)

Hi Kane! 
It's also recommended to use a bubbler to keep oxygenating the AP and getting more "millage" out of it.
Place the bubbling stone at the bottom of the 3 gal. bucket and then put back in the 2gal. and let it do its thing! 
Take care!
Phil


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## kane333 (Apr 10, 2013)

Thank you, Phil. I'll have to run an extension cord around to that side of the house where no one goes. I keep the bucket covered with a 13 gallon round trash can to keep bugs, leaves, and rain out. Although it's supposed to rain tonite and tmorrow. I may have to hold off on the bubbler and just keep agitating. Thanks for the advice though. 8)


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## kane333 (Apr 11, 2013)

So this is my mash after 3 HCL washes. The only problem now, before I go any further is, I don't have SMB. I have Ferrous Sulfate. Will this work to drop the gold or should I play it safe and get SMB as shown on the video? Again. Reprimands are more than welcome.


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## jmdlcar (Apr 11, 2013)

How many grams of foil do you think you have?


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## kane333 (Apr 11, 2013)

The container in the pic is 4 cup (950 ml) container. I have not weighed the mash but it should be about 4 maybe 5 grams.


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## butcher (Apr 12, 2013)

Ferrous sulfate (copperas) will work just as well as SMB, but the copperas crystals must be green, if oxidized white or brown they are no longer ferrous sulfate, brown oxidized by air would be some type of iron oxides, or ferric sulfate.
they should look similar to this:
Ferrous sulfate(will precipitate gold from solution):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron%28II%29_sulfate


Ferric sulfate (will not precipitate gold from solution):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron%28III%29_sulfate


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## cejohnsonsr (Apr 13, 2013)

Nice looking mash! I'd rinse it very well with water too before you dissolve. I've never used the Ferrous to drop. I know SMB is pretty cheap. You can get it at Duda Diesel. They ship fast. Butcher helped me a lot with my 1st AP too. I followed lazersteve's video. At the end 1 of my beakers didn't drop as expected. I still had too much Cl in solution. Make sure you evaporate VERY well (BUT DON'T BOIL) to remove all the chlorine before you drop your gold.

Ed


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## kane333 (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanx, Ed. I'll definitely take your advice and rinse well. I ordered 12 oz of SMB off eBay before I got a response from anyone on the forum and you're the second person that suggested Duda Diesel. $2.50 +3.00 shipping for 12 oz. I know it's probablly not the best price but I guess my impatience got the best of me. I won't see the stuff till Monday or Tuesday but I'll post my progress. Thanks again.


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## Anonymous (Apr 13, 2013)

kane333 said:


> Thanx, Ed. I'll definitely take your advice and rinse well. I ordered 12 oz of SMB off eBay before I got a response from anyone on the forum and you're the second person that suggested Duda Diesel. $2.50 +3.00 shipping for 12 oz. I know it's probablly not the best price but I guess my impatience got the best of me. I won't see the stuff till Monday or Tuesday but I'll post my progress. Thanks again.


$5.50 is a small price to pay to learn something (refining precious metals). I'm sure it won't break you, but it could definitely make you (more gold in the end).

Keep at it. You'll soon see that your purchase was worth it once you see the results you expect. I've been there and done that too. If it turns out right, I'm happy, if not, then I feel like I wasted money or bought something I shouldn't have. Take it all as a learning experience and you'll gain much knowledge from it.

Kevin


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## kane333 (Apr 13, 2013)

I appreciate the advice, Kevin. This an excellent place to learn, and that's why I'm thankful I found this forum. I did, in my inexperience and impatience, fall for the "Better than SMB" sales tactic the seller used on eBay and ended up purchasing Ferric Sulfate with a few green crystals in it so I'll chalk it up as another learning experience. Total loss of $5.00 no big deal but a learning experience nonetheless. Thanks to Butcher for showing me the difference.

Joe


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## cejohnsonsr (Apr 14, 2013)

Hi again, Joe. A few people I pay the most attention to when they write or offer help. lazersteve, butcher, Paladium, GoldandSilverPro (think I spelled that wrong), 4metals,Harold..... a few others whose names I can't pull off the top of my head, but who I recognize when I see them. As you're doing your study & searching the forum, you'll do well to read just about anything these guys write. Even if it's not something you're currently working on, you'll soon discover little bits of information that actually do apply to almost every process & sometimes you'll really hit a goldmine (so to speak) of good info.

Ed


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## kane333 (Apr 21, 2013)

It took a while for the SMB to finally arrive. I received it Friday 04/19/2013 but didn't have time Saturday daytime to do anything. Late Saturday night, I started dissolving the foils using the HCL/CL (Hydrochloric Acid %31.85/Sodium Hypochlorite %8.25) method outside. This morning, I started the filtration process and this is what it looks like.







The chlorine started forming a cloud like this even after letting it sit all night. I did put a lid on the container that I used to dissolve the foils in to prevent waking up and seeing a bunch of dead bugs and flies in my solution (left outside overnight) but the lid was on loose enough to allow some of the chlorine to gas off. 

Filtration through 3 coffee filters that were pre-wetted took about 20-30 minutes. Spray bottle with distilled water in hand, I made sure to keep the filters wet and to drive the AuCL3 (Auric Chloride) towards the bottom of the filter. The sun is quite intense today and I also didn't want the filters to dry out.






This is what the AuCL3 looks like from the top view.






This is the side view.






I did 5 HCL washes and 3 distilled water washes but still has a green tint to it. Will this affect my SMB drop and if so, how can I get rid of it?

Also, I have not diluted the solution as of yet, I'm wondering if it's easier to gas off the excess chlorine while it's still concentrated or if its recommended to dilute first, then get rid of excess chlorine. Thanks in advance for any help.


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## butcher (Apr 21, 2013)

I cannot see the picture here on this computer, but just a slight green tint will not hurt anything, copper is a very strong colorant, and just a little copper will change the color, if you do not have much copper in solution and you do not use way too much SMB the little bit of copper will stay in solution when you precipitate your gold, the sunshine and good warm weather will help to gas off the free chlorine from solution, chlorine gas does not like to stay in hot solutions, I do not know if it would make much difference if the solution was concentrated or dilute, my guess it would work very similar either way, and after diluting it you should let it sit and settle anyway for any insoluble material to settle out.

Normally I will just heat the solution to drive off chlorine (unless it is very sunny hot summer day, then I will let the sun heat it), dilute and let it settle well, then decant clear liquid, without disturbing the settled salts, filter the solution before precipitating the gold


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## kkmonte (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm confused from your pictures. Did you put your mash in a container, add the HCL and CL and let the gold dissolve fully, and then filter it ? how much HCL and CL did you use (approx.) ? That white plume of gas in your container (under the filter) is chlorine gas ? Having too much chlorine in your solution can appear green as well. 

I would add 2X times water to your auric chloride and then heat the solution to drive off excess chlorine, then let the solution sit overnight, and then add your SMB 24 hours later. 

Here is a test you can make for excess chlorine:

A test for chlorine gas:
Pour a cap-full of ammonium hydroxide in the cap of the household ammonia bottle about half full, the ammonia will fume from the cap, hold this cap in the fumes of the fumes coming off of your heated solution of suspected water fumes or chlorine fumes, if the fume contain water you will see no reaction, but if your heated solution is still vaporizing off chlorine, the ammonia gas and the chlorine gas mix to form a white smoke of ammonium chloride smoke clearly visible reaction.

Take note You do not want to spill the ammonia solution.

Another indication if you have driven off most of the chlorine from your solution is the stannous chloride test, testing your solution before and after, with excess chlorine the SnCl2 test may not indicate gold (violet reaction) even if gold is in solution if you have excess chlorine oxidizer, or it may go violet for a second and them disappear, as the chlorine re-oxidizes the gold which the SnCl2 is trying to reduce, but after you have removed excess chlorine from solution the stannous chloride test will stay Violet indicating the gold can be reduced back to a metal (colloid), by the SnCl2 test solution, also indicating you precipitant like SMB will also be able to reduce the gold back to metal.


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## kane333 (Apr 22, 2013)

Thank you kkmonte, I'm familiar with the ammonia test from reading Butcher's posts. I tried the test 2 times so far with some ammonia in the cap, but then I noticed this. If I shake the bottle of ammonia first before removing the cap, the droplets that collect on the bottom of the cap are sufficient to perform this test. No need to fill the cap halfway. The cloud still forms if there is chlorine present, but there's less worry of accidently spilling some of the ammonia into the AuCL3.

I used 1 cup HCL to about 1/3 to 1/2 cup CL. Dissolved the foils, then filtered through 3 coffee filters.

You're correct. I probably used too much chlorox. Saturday night, I dissolved the foils outside with just the porch light. Sunday afternoon-evening, I let the container sit on my burner. The Glass jar sits in a cast iron skillet that has about an inch of sand in it. This helps heat and cool slowly because I don't think this jar is really meant for heating. As long as I keep the knob at about 1 to 1 1/2 out of 5, I should be fine. Never once are there even tiny bubbles produced from the low heat I've used so far. But it's definitely driving off the excess chlorine as I can see the wisps of smoke coming off the solution. It's probably taking longer this way but I'm in no hurry. Taking this nice and slow. As the solution sat over the heat yesterday, it gave me time to melt down some fishing sinkers for my next 1st. The sulfuric cell. 

I've been slowly heating the solution in it's concentrated state. I'll dilute after the chlorine is driven off. I've got 65 grams of SMB saturated in 100 ml of water ready to go.


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## kane333 (Apr 23, 2013)

I saturated 100ml of water with 65g of SMB and poured this into the solution. Stirred real good and the solution cleared, then turned muddy as it should. Within 30 minutes, some powder had settled to the bottom.







Thinking this can't be right, it settled way too fast, I tested the clear solution with Stannous Chloride and the test result was positive. I saturated another 100ml of water with 65g of SMB and poured it in. It didn't turn as muddy as the first time, but settled quicker than the first time. So I tested the clear solution again. Positive. The left q-tip was the first test, right q-tip, the second.







I'm worried I'm going to overdo the SMB. How should I handle this?


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## Geo (Apr 23, 2013)

looks like a false positive to me. remove the solution from the powder and bring it to a boil. keep it hot until the volume is halved. retest the solution and see if the result is different.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 24, 2013)

65 + 65 g of SMB is way too much. SMB precipitates gold at a rate of approximately 1:1, it would be enough for dropping 130g gold from your solution. What you got is a false positive from the excess SO2 in solution, a brown stain, not a purple one.

I suggest that you take some of your gold powder and make some diluted gold chloride test solution, so you can test your stannous and get acquainted with the color of a positive gold test. You don't need a lot of gold for it.

Göran


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## kane333 (Apr 24, 2013)

OK. That's what I get for not thoroughly reading and searching enough and just following a video.  From what I found here on GRF, it takes 65g of SMB to saturate in 100ml of water. Correct me if I'm wrong with those numbers. So watching the video from LazerSteve, he has 3/4 of a pint in a Ball Canning Jar saturated with SMB. 3/4 of a pint is a little over 350 ml if 1 pint fluid= 473.176ml. And he pours in about half of that. I used a Gerber Bottle and the 100ml filled that about 3/4 of the way. The video shows 600 grams of fingers, I recovered from a little over 800 grams of fingers.

What can I do to fix this mistake? I have brown powder in the bottom of the solution but need advice on how to proceed next. Any help would be appreciated. TIA.











I'm sure if I can use this saturated solution for another batch, I'd be able to drop a couple more oz of gold if it can be re-used. :lol:


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## Captobvious (Apr 25, 2013)

kane333 said:


> Thanx, Ed. I'll definitely take your advice and rinse well. I ordered 12 oz of SMB off eBay before I got a response from anyone on the forum and you're the second person that suggested Duda Diesel. $2.50 +3.00 shipping for 12 oz. I know it's probablly not the best price but I guess my impatience got the best of me. I won't see the stuff till Monday or Tuesday but I'll post my progress. Thanks again.



Amazon is pretty awesome in this regard too. Interestingly enough the SMB and Sulfuric I bought recently were arranged by Amazon to sell for Duda diesel lol but the rest of my order came from something like 4 other places. So yeah it was like a one stop shop and got the best deal of 5 different places without the hassle of checking 5 different websites, was very convenient!


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## Captobvious (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm not the best with keeping the most detailed notes, but when I did my SMB drop I added more by feel to the diluted Auric Chloride (600ml solution, 1200ml water and ice and allowed ice to melt almost completely) As you saw (in my thread - (prepping to drop with SMB-http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=18092&p=182853#p182853) I ended up diluting quite a bit, might I suggest adding more water to your mix to dilute it and let settle, test with stannous chloride, chk for SO2 vapors has sulfur smell (I would assume that you're familiar with the odor while doing your earlier SMB addition) *BE CAREFUL DOING THIS!!! SO2 fumes are DANGEROUS!!!* 

I would assume that if you get a positive stannous test and no fumes detectable (after diluting) to add more SMB and let the solution go clear. Then allow to precipitate and settle. But I would be tempted to say just diluting further might solve your problem and allow the reaction to succeed as it just sounds from your descriptions to be too thick for the SMB to work that's already there. 

I guess others can confirm or deny this, feel free to chastise me if I'm wrong on this Vets 

Hope this helps


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## kane333 (Apr 27, 2013)

My first button. Again, sorry about the pics, I'm using the 30x jewelers loupe in front of the cell phone camera to take these pictures.
It doesn't have the characteristic "pipe" so it's probably not as pure as it should be but it's my first and I'm very happy :mrgreen: 
I've read that you can re-dissolve the buttons but I don't have nitric. HCL/CL would be a bear to try and re-dissolve a button. Could I maybe peen it flat to make the HCL/CL work? Any better suggestions?


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 27, 2013)

Congratulations!

If you want to redissolve it with HCl/Cl, you can hammer it flat to expose more surface area. That will help the process move along a little faster.

Or you can save it as it is and compare it to your next one to see how your technique has improved.

Dave


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## butcher (Apr 27, 2013)

Good job, I save up those buttons I think need re-refining.
They are great for de-NOxing an aqua regia solution, or adding weight to that larger batch down the road.


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## Captobvious (Apr 28, 2013)

Fyi Kane, if you plan to re-refine I would advise against making them into a button until after the 2nd refining, the powders tend to dissolve a lot easier than buttons is all.... that said I can TOTALLY understand wanting to melt that first button


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## yar (Apr 28, 2013)

Congrats on your first button. I am still reading and learning and preparing for my first try with AP on fingers. Thank you for this well documented thread as I learn from what you have done.


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## artart47 (Apr 28, 2013)

Hi Kane!
You mensioned that it takes so many grams of SMB to saturate a certain amount of water..... You don't need to saturate you gold chloride solution in order to drop your gold. The gold drops because the SMB creates SO2 gas that disolves in the solution and the SO2 is what makes the gold drop out. about 1gram of SMB in enough to drop 1gram of gold.
If you think you sould have say, 6grams gold, add may-be 5-6grams SMB and then after it drops test with stannis chloride to make sure there is no gold still in solution.
Too much SMB can interfere with the test and make it more difficult fore your gold to drop. It suld drop very fast.
Hope this helped artart47


Edit
Sorry I just got in from work, diden" see page two of your post Ha Ha! 
Hey! congrats on a job well done!


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## steyr223 (Apr 28, 2013)

Nice kane
Just because there's no pipe does not mean that it is not good
I have had many nuggets with no hole that were still
+98% .I believe the size makes a bit of difference,
It all depends on what you want to do with the recovered
Gold

Cash wise very little 
Refine wise huge :lol: 

Also to much smb does strange things like make your
Drop stay in suspention for ever
You said quick drop and thats excellent 

Are you sure i mean i use 10 grams to much and i get
Smb all over the bottom of my beaker 
From your pics that wasn't the case

Please someone correct me if i am wrong

Nice job kane
Steyr223 rob


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