# Patnor Process variant ?



## 924T (Jan 16, 2013)

If I incinerate a batch of chips in my cyclonic incinerator, which will run about 1000F with hardwood pellets
as the fuel, the 55 gallon steel drum is going to be too hot to get close to immediately following the burn.

I was thinking about using a steel container inside of the drum to contain the chips in during the incineration,
and if I used something like a stainless steel stockpot, it would have handles on it to make it easier to lift out.

But, the depth of the 55 gallon drum would require being very close to it to be able to either reach in and grab
the stockpot handles, or even to use a couple of long hooks to snag the handles and then hoist the stockpot
out, so getting burned by the hot drum appears to be a risk.

If I would let the drum and the incinerated chips cool down so that I could safely retrieve the chips from the drum,
my concern is that the ash would be too cool to dissolve when dumped into water, and would be a departure from
the Patnor Process.

My big question is: if I reheated the incinerated chips to 400-500F and then dumped them into water, will I get
the same results as if the burned material had been dumped into water immediately after incineration?

Cheers,

Mike


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## srlaulis (Jan 16, 2013)

I just briefly read through Patnor's process, and I did not see anywhere that said the chips have to go straight from the heat source to water. According to his presentation, the chips can be allowed to cool down.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 16, 2013)

The thermal shock from dumping hot incinerated chips into water makes the ash crumble (I think it is a small steam explosion actually). I have also found that ultrasonic could crush the ash and separate it from well incinerated chips... or chip, as I only tested it on one chip.
The improvement of the process by dumping hot chips in water was discussed in a forum thread, I don't think it is in the original document.

Göran


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## srlaulis (Jan 16, 2013)

That sounds like a great idea. I will update my notes! Thanks g!


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## mjgraham (Jan 16, 2013)

I did try the dump in water method, I found it to be a messier route, after they had turned white I would dunk them , the white would leave and some would shatter but there was still a lot of black. sure the chips were soft but still needed more incinerating. Of course I don't know what volume your going to work with mine really was not that massive but the last small batch I heat them for 20 min , stir , 20 more, they need to have some air contact to help the conversion, let them cool and put them into a bucket where I grind them with a big bolt for a few mins. then sift and big chunks go back in the fire, the repeat until there is sifted ash in one bucket then the bulk of the metal in the other, then follow the rest of the process. I am using a propane burner I made but I think the charcoal/wood did a better job just was a little more costly for charcoal here.


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## 924T (Jan 17, 2013)

Goran,

It wasn't until the third time that I reread your last comment that it dawned on me--------if the ultrasonic
ash crushing will work on a batch of chips, as it did with the 1 chip you tested the idea on, then that
would, for me, eliminate the post incineration thermal concerns, and keep it a dry process, which would
have some procedural "flow" advantages.

I've got to replace my back yard motion sensor security light with a normal set of flood lights, and add
an outdoor rated outlet, too, and then I'll be able to have power for the fan system that provides the
air flow/pressure for my incinerator. Then I'll finally be able to incinerate some IC chips; once I get
some that are properly ashed, and cooled down, I can pop them into my ultrasonic cleaner (in a jar), 
and we'll see if it can handle a batch of them.

This will be a fun experiment!

Cheers,

Mike


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## g_axelsson (Jan 17, 2013)

Mike, the ultrasonic were done in water. Air is a very bad conductor for ultrasonic waves and will not transmit enough energy to affect the chips.
I took my ultrasonic bath, poured some water in it, but the basket in, then dropped the chip in a beaker (glass as most hard solids are good transmitters of ultrasonic waves) with some water and put that into the ultrasonic bath. When I turned on the power I got an instant cloud of ash in the beaker. When I poured it off I had only the chip, some filler (looks like clear quartz sand) and my golden wires in the bottom.

MJGraham, if your chip is black on the inside the incineration isn't finished. It takes quite a long time for the oxygen to reach the inside and burn away the carbon. A good supply of fresh air to the material being incinerated is vital to get a good conversion. The only time I done incineration on a little bigger scale (a couple of kilos keyboard mylars) I had to blow air into the steel pan at the end to burn off the carbon. Whenever I stopped blowing air it just sat there glowing slowly. If the hot gases from the fire gets into the incineration vessel it will protect the carbon as there are almost no oxygen left and you need to transport the carbon dioxide that is formed out of the vessel.
Whenever my refining table thaws out of the snow I'm going to test incineration with a hot air gun. (500-600 C air with all oxygen left should burn chips quite fast.)

Göran


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## 924T (Jan 18, 2013)

Goran,

Good point! I hadn't fully thought that one through. I agree, it will take water.

I had already decided to go with glass containers, figuring that plastic jars would absorb and attenuate the 
sound waves, so you've confirmed I was on the right track there. I can't wait to see a cloud of ash
caused by ultra high frequency audio-----that will put a smile on my face for multiple reasons.

Going shopping for a security light with a weatherproof a.c. outlet in about 12 hours, and I have a buddy
that will install it, so hopefully it won't be long before I can fire my incinerator up.


On an unrelated topic, just how cold is it where you're at? You must have a lot of snow.

Cheers,

Mike


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## g_axelsson (Jan 18, 2013)

924T said:


> On an unrelated topic, just how cold is it where you're at? You must have a lot of snow.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike


Hi Mike, it's starting to get cold now, almost time to take out the long johns. -25C yesterday, I thought someone left the handbrake on in the car and filled the gears with sirup. But far from the -40-45 i experienced as a child. I blame it on the global warming. As for snow, about half a meter here, a normal winter.

By the way, I haven't stepped up my experiment with ultrasonics, expect to at least have to stir the container with the chips so the ultrasonic reaches all the chips. How big batches that can be run I don't know, but it would probably depend on the size of the ultrasonic unit.

Keep cool! 8)

Göran


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## 924T (Jan 20, 2013)

Howdy, Goran!

-25C?

My car won't even start at -10F.

.5 meter of snow?

That's higher than my front bumper.

By my standards, that's some serious winter!

Keep those experiments coming---------I love to hear about what you've done, and are doing.

Cheers,

Mike


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## g_axelsson (Jan 20, 2013)

Two years ago I had a job in a town three hours drive to the north, but first I had to stop by in the work shop. It had snowed during the day but nothing special...


... but after four hours when I was done it wasn't so funny any longer ...


I decided to not drive that night, but left early in the morning when the roads were mostly cleared.
It is not fun to drive when you end up in a blizzard as soon as you get behind a lorry, you can't see anything and sometimes not even the lorry. Twice I've discovered a lorry just 20 meters in front of me by seeing a dim red lamp hovering high up and traveling a lot slower than me.  Overtaking in that weather isn't easy.

But there are advantages too with the snow. Last year my boss (driving) and me went off the road in 80 km/h (50 mph) and an hour later after a lot shoveling and some help from a tractor, we could drive off with only one small plastic cover in the front bumper broken.
When I dug down to the ground the wheels of the car were still 20 cm above ground, it was sitting on top of the snow. :lol: 

Göran


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## 924T (Jan 27, 2013)

Goran,

Oh my.........that is a bunch of snow (and, thanks for the pictures)! I can't help but think that doing 50mph in the snow sounds like a lot of fun.
Did you guys go airborne when you ran off the road?

My personal favorite was a blizzard with the really small snowflakes, and, on the interstate, coming up behind a snowplow
at 50-60mph, because the snow being kicked up by the snowplow's blade was creating a total white-out.

I was ultimately able to pass him, because a friend of mine who used to do ice racing had turned me on to
Bridgestone "Blizzak" tires that he used on his VW Rabbit to race on frozen lakes, and they are super sticky
in ice and snow. I had just bought my first pair of Blizzaks that very day. Couldn't see a thing when I went
by the plow, either-----all guesswork, but it worked out (I had driven I88 before).

A bit pricy, but they'll keep you on the road. I've got some on my car right now.

Thanks for sharing some adventures and pictures with us!

Cheers,

Mike


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## g_axelsson (Jan 27, 2013)

No, we didn't get airborn when we went off the road, The road was plowed too far out so suddenly on a straight part the car just started to lean down to the right and everything turned white until we stopped. It wasn't violently at all, something like locking the breaks on dry asphalt.

I've been off the road once before and that time when I stepped out I just sank down to my waist in snow.

Best thing with winter : Sliding around with your car in every corner. (when alone on the road of course)
Worst thing with winter : Digging your car out of the snow when you missed a corner... :mrgreen: 

Göran


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