# HYDRA SIEGE Project



## Tzoax (Dec 20, 2016)

I was thinking how to collect, keep and record all yield data of all types of tested components in one place, made of experienced (registered) users willing to share it, with ability to post/share yield data, so all regular (unregistered) users could see that data in real time.

When i say "registered"/"unregistered" users i am not thinking about GRF registered/unregistered users, i have something else on mind. This is where things are getting complicated...i will try to explain best i can. If you don't understand some part, please ask.

I am having idea to build Windows application which i gave name HYDRA SIEGE Project. I could make it to be a separate application or i could implement it to my already existing application related to calculating gold content in computer gold bearing components (link: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=24823).

HYDRA SIEGE Project or H.Y.D.R.A S.I.E.G.E refers to Hardware Yields, Data, Reports, Analysis and Sharing Information about Extracting Gold from Electronics.

First i would make online database with which application Hydra Siege will communicate, and where all yield data would be saved. All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data with no ability to add their data. The reason of restricting anyone posting yield data is to avoid not experienced users data, intentionally posting of false data, and similar reasons.

Registered user could be any well known experienced member, willing to share their results. I think it will not be problem choosing such a members, there are plenty of them here. This is how they will get ability to add yield data... I will include encrypted username and password needed for posting on online database from inside of application, but it will be triggered only if you enter certain keys. I will make a plenty of these keys, so if anyone interested, i will post them key in PM. When user open application and insert the key he will become "registered" user and he will have ability to add yield data. In a metter of seconds all people having this app will retrieve this information about yield data.

This is just explanation how it works, in reality it is not complicated. When application is opened, all of the types of gold bearing components will be well arranged in table and besides you will see different yield data from various users (included who posted which data). This is core of the application, if this is done, it is easy for me to make calculations of middle values, etc.

This is just idea i wanted to share with you, what are you thinking about it, is it worth making such application?


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## Impster (Dec 20, 2016)

That sounds like a great idea


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## Tndavid (Dec 21, 2016)

Wonderful Idea. It would definitely cut out the guess work for many of us..


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## Tzoax (Feb 5, 2017)

Tndavid said:


> Wonderful Idea. It would definitely cut out the guess work for many of us..





Impster said:


> That sounds like a great idea



Thank you for support, i was working on application with Ken (jeneje) and it will be finished soon. All members of GRF and RPM will be able to have it for free. Here is some pictures.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Feb 6, 2017)

That looks awesome Tzoax


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## adam mizer (Feb 10, 2017)

Alexander,
These software projects of yours look great.
Hope you complete them soon.
I like the other classic looking one with Hokes book, hows that coming along or is it toast?


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## Tzoax (Feb 11, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> That looks awesome Tzoax



Thank you Topher! 
I believe it will be a great source of reliable data yields. Today i will talk with Ken and we will test this final version of application. If everything is ok we will start to offer experienced members to participate by adding their data. When a member accept it, he will become level 2 user of application and he will have abbility to add their data. This is a brief description of app:

REGISTRATION AND LOGIN
==================================================================================================
Click at "Check Connection" button to check connection between database server and your PC. If it is ok you can continue.

To Register click at "Sign Up" button and enter your username, email address and password.
When you click at "Register" button 8-digit code will be sent to your email address. Write this code into required field and after that you will be registered user. You will receive email message with your username and password.

To login add your username and password on a main screen textboxes and click Login. If everything is ok a new window will appear and you will be logged in. 
==================================================================================================



LEVELS
=================================================================================================
There are 3 levels of users - regular users, superusers and admin users.
All new registrated users will be level 1 by default.

Level 1 users or regular users have abbility to browse and download PDF data yield files.
All new users will have 2 downloads for free.

Level 2 or superuser accounts are users that have abbility to add their own data into database.
Every time superusers add their data to database they will be rewarded with 1 free download.

Level 3 or admin users have abbility to manage accounts, validate new PDF data reports from level 2 users, and change levels of users.
All users with level 2 will be well known/experienced members of GRF/RPM websites.

==================================================================================================



BROWSING AND DOWNLOADING DATA YIELD PDF FILES
==================================================================================================
After you login click at "Search Database" button. Click at dropdown list beneath title "Browse All Data Yields".
When you click at any item of that list details will show up such as author, category, process etc.
Also "Download Report" button will appear. 
On a right side of window you will see "Free downloads left" title with number of your free downloads.
After browsing for report you are interested about click at "Download Report" button and wait until it is downloaded.
After it is downloaded you will see message where the PDF file is stored (it will be stored in your working directory of application usually at Program files folder) and PDF file will be opened automatically. (You must have PDF Reader installed on your PC to be able to open PDF files)

When you download all of your free downloads you will be able to purchase next one, you will be redirected to paypal, and after you pay you will receive PDF file on your email address within 24 hours.
==================================================================================================


HOW IT WORKS
==================================================================================================
All data yields that superusers add are stored into secured database server.
The application is connected with that database.
When new users are registered they have abbility to retrieve data from that server.
In other words, once you have this application installed and you are registered, every time new data yield is added by any of the superusers, you will instantly see that data when you browse data yields, like all of the other registred users.
==================================================================================================


BENEFITS
==================================================================================================
-All data yields will be on one place
-It will be a huge database eventually
-Only experienced and well known users will have abbility to add their data yields
-it is very easy and safe way to find any data yield from experienced members
==================================================================================================




adam mizer said:


> Alexander,
> These software projects of yours look great.
> Hope you complete them soon.
> I like the other classic looking one with Hokes book, hows that coming along or is it toast?




Thank you Adam!

I just finished that classic app. You can download it here (including prerequisites):
http://www.mediafire.com/file/0cithudb05tn9bk/Gold_Refining_Book_Classic.rar

If you already have IE11 and .NET installed you can download just application installer here:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/vk7v2d71i6vws2z/Gold_Refining_Book_Classic.msi

Now everything should work fine.
If you need any modification i will change it for you it and send you a link.


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## patnor1011 (Feb 11, 2017)

You said on the start of this thread that "All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data with no ability to add their data." 
If that is still the case and anyone can see data they are looking for then what warrant charging money for download - or better said why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway. Or it is rather that users will not be able to see that yield report unless they download that particular file they are looking for.
That lead to another issue - if someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?
I do understand that nothing comes free in the life but as it happens forum is stuffed with yield reports already. Yes it take quite some time to find all of it and perhaps you could be credited in some way if you spend time to localize and list all of them in a database. Small sign up charge as reward for your troubles would be much better option than what is being proposed now.


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## Tzoax (Feb 12, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> You said on the start of this thread that "All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data with no ability to add their data."
> If that is still the case and anyone can see data they are looking for then what warrant charging money for download - or better said why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway. Or it is rather that users will not be able to see that yield report unless they download that particular file they are looking for.
> That lead to another issue - if someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?
> I do understand that nothing comes free in the life but as it happens forum is stuffed with yield reports already. Yes it take quite some time to find all of it and perhaps you could be credited in some way if you spend time to localize and list all of them in a database. Small sign up charge as reward for your troubles would be much better option than what is being proposed now.



Hi Pat. Thank you for asking, i will explain you everything now. 
I was building this application last 2 months, and yesterday i finally finished it. Now the application could be downloaded and used, but there are no data to see, database is empty since now is the time for next phase-populating database with yields. 

When application starts all users have to register to be able to login and use the application. When users registers they are by default regular users. All of the new users could download 2 PDF documents for free. If users are willing to share their data i could change their level 1 (regular user) to level 2 (superuser), and when i do that, next time they open their application they will have ability to use "Add Your Data" button. When they add their data they will be rewarded with 1 free download, so the rate is 1:1, for every yield that people are sharing they could download one for free. But those users have to be a members that have some experience in gold refining, so that way all data will be more confident. 

Yes, there are plenty of data already there, and there are a lot of partly finished or bad data there, even false data. This way, all of the reliable data will be on one place, everybody will see who is author, and there are lot of other details too - description of process used and description of material for example. I made that application would build 3 pages PDF file based on that data (take a look at picture above - Add Your Data), people could even compare for example same material processed by different process, by different users, and there are also Ag, Pd and Pt yields. There are also categories for all gold bearing materials - carat scrap (bench sweeps, polishing waste), computer scrap, medical scrap, tv scrap, monitor scrap, satellite, cellphones, military scrap etc. 

My first post on this thread was just idea. Some things are maybe different now but the main goal is achieved. I couldn't done it by myself. Thats why i made this application together with Ken (jeneje).
Ken provided server to be used for database so without it, it wouldn't be possible to make application like this. This application requires online access to database so when any user add their data (through the application) all of the users around the world will instantly see that data description (inside of their application) and be able to download it.

Answers:

"Why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway." 
Because this way people will get detailed PDF document (3 pages with pictures) about specific material from safe source (well known, experienced refiners), because it is fast, and when database grows it will become great place to find any yield of anything. The main difference is that anybody could add any data anywhere, for example if somebody claims that he recovered 1 gram of gold from pentium pro processor and they give that data to forum it will stay there and many people who are not familiar with gold recovery would see that data and many of them will consider it is true data, but it isn't. That's why this is a better way, data collected this way will be far more reliable than all of the data that already exists, big part of that data are just assumption, or not done completely, or have lack of process used etc. 
But, that was just a first level of security. Second level is that when users add their data, before that data goes to database it will have to be verified by administrators. That way all of the type errors and other issues could be resolved before publishing it.
Next security level is managing accounts, deleting users, making blacklist, changing permission levels etc. This way the whole system is even more secured.

"If someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?" 
If you add one data yield, you will be rewarded with one free data yield download. And people who eventually pay money for that data yield will pay to account of people who owns this application, in this case Ken and me. I think it is fair enough, but we will see how things are going to go work out.

"Small sign up charge as reward for your troubles would be much better option than what is being proposed now"
Yes, i guess that it would be fair enough if i made simple offline application. This way somebody have to pay for server lease (about 70$ per month), somebody have to check every few hours for verifications, sending ordered PDF files, maintaining database, updating and making improvements to application, security issues etc. It takes couple of hours daily. So, i am not doing this for money, i would be happy if i could earn this way but even if i don't i will try to keep it going altogether with Ken because we believe that this could be very good source of data yields.

Since application is finished now, i invite you to contribute and check application, if you are willing to contribute register and let me know, i will change your level to superuser and you could add your data to database, especially ic chips yields in which processing you are one of the best ic chip refiner and tester on GRF. All of the experienced members are invited to contribute.

Alexander


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## g_axelsson (Feb 12, 2017)

Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.
http://www.whoishostingthis.com/compare/

I just bought a new server for my wiki and my other five websites, it cost me $300 and some parts I got via scrapping. Running costs will be around $20 per year and site, including domain name costs.
And the yield data is free for anyone to see and it links directly to the post on GRF and the author with the following discussion directly. If someone is claiming 1g Au per PPro then there will be a post quite soon after calling it bogus.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Yield_numbers

Personally I don't like "pay for view" sites so I'm not going to contribute to your project.

Göran


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 12, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.


I have to agree with Göran on this. 

Dave


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## jeneje (Feb 12, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.


Not really, the server is through Codero hosting and it is a dedicated server with 20 terabytes of space, and the cost is $75.55 per month.  Hello everybody, I am back! :lol: You can get shared hosting from a lot of places, but you are limited to the amount of space you use and the traffic that uses your site or APP. Since I have a dedicated server that is not an issue.

Ken


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## Tzoax (Feb 12, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.
> http://www.whoishostingthis.com/compare/
> 
> I just bought a new server for my wiki and my other five websites, it cost me $300 and some parts I got via scrapping. Running costs will be around $20 per year and site, including domain name costs.
> ...



Thank you Göran, but this is not website, and people are not "pay for view" here, this is Windows application integrated with server database, and people could "pay for downloading PDF document with pictures and detailed description of process, material etc" and people who gives their data yields could download data for free. And there are less and more expensive servers, based on many factors, i could even make server runs from my home for free but it would be not secured well and it would be much slower than like this. But, anyway, i like to make applications and even if all of this was a bad idea i am not regretting for making it. I still believe that paying for complete, reliable, detailed PDF document is better for some people than chasing links and incomplete descriptions of process used scattered all around. Thank you Göran, i respect your opinion, and how you know mine.



FrugalRefiner said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.
> ...



Thank you Dave, i am not paying for server, Ken is paying.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 12, 2017)

So the quoted server cost is for the RPM forum server and not dedicated for this project. Is it the same about the workload? A couple of hours daily just to keep this project running or is that spent on running the RPM forum?

Making programs just for fun I understand, been there, done that. But it seems like a very large program to keep track of a few numbers.

If it is a program instead of a website it's still paying for viewing. Even worse if it's a program since it locks out anyone not running windows.

Then there is the security issue, I bet many are nervous to run unknown software on their computers. I'm always wary that I might install software infected with viruses. I'm not accusing you, but how do I know that your computer isn't infected? A website doesn't have that problem unless you add a lot of extras like flash animations.
I might be overanxious about computer security, but then it's almost 20 years since I last saw a virus on one of my machines, a word macro virus brought home by my girlfriend without knowing it.  

I agree that there is a problem with descriptions scattered all over the place, that was the driving force behind me starting the wiki. I'm writing short descriptions and put links to relevant threads just so people wouldn't need to do a lot of searches. I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project.

Göran


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## aga (Feb 12, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project


Sorry to hear that !

I got some wiki experience, but hardly any recovery/refining experience.

Is there something i could do to help with the wiki ?

Edit to add:-
Seems that there are some red links i could turn blue. 

How do i get a wiki editing account ?

Final edit: 
found it, and will add/edit some stuff.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 12, 2017)

aga said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project
> ...


Sure, speling cheak for example. English isn't my first language and I'm afraid it shows in my writing. :mrgreen: 

But I'm sure that there is a lot you can contribute with.

I'm not that experienced in refining either so I have to study a lot. I do a lot of searches on the forum to find good threads, both as a source of my writing and to link to. There are a lot of general information and chemistry that should be added to the wiki too but I haven't had time yet, one article at the time.
For example, look at bromate hydrolysis, I've never done anything like that but I studied it a lot and I wrote an article about it. If there is something wrong I hope someone will correct it in the future.

Yesterday I wrote about hydrochloric acid and now I'm doing research for iridium. If you see something that is missing or just needs a bit of polish and you think you can contribute, don't be shy. It's a wiki and it can always be reverted back to a previous edit.

Every project has to acquire a certain mass before it starts moving by itself, I just misjudged the tipping point. Some day it will get there.  

Göran


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## Auful (Feb 12, 2017)

Maybe building it, instead of in .net, mysql with a php or java front end so it's web based and available cross platform so non-windows users like me don't have to run a virtal machine to use it? Great idea, though! Wouldn't it also be more scalable at that point as well?


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## Tzoax (Feb 12, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> So the quoted server cost is for the RPM forum server and not dedicated for this project. Is it the same about the workload? A couple of hours daily just to keep this project running or is that spent on running the RPM forum?
> Göran



No, that means that application is connected with powerful server that could provide secure, fast and reliable connection and data transfer, with no restrictions. And few hours of my work daily on application and server is dedicated to this project. RPM website is working on the same server but it surely will not affect to quality of connection and transfer rate, the server is more than powerful enough for all of those tasks. Maybe you personally don't like that application database will be on the same server where Refinement Of Precious Metals website is hosted? I don't see any other reason why this could be a problem. Powerful server is provided, it is working quite well and even it has 100 more websites on it, it would still working very good.



g_axelsson said:


> Making programs just for fun I understand, been there, done that. But it seems like a very large program to keep track of a few numbers.
> Göran



The application is about 6 Megabytes, it is exactly 5,772KB. The big part of that 6MB are pictures i used for application design, then there are window forms and thousands of lines inside of the code and itext dll files required for building PDF documents. I marked it for you on this picture. 
The application is far more powerful then track of few numbers.





g_axelsson said:


> If it is a program instead of a website it's still paying for viewing. Even worse if it's a program since it locks out anyone not running windows.
> Göran



No, when someone pays for PDF document he will receive PDF document on their email, not just to view "few numbers". He will recieve full, detailed report about data yield of desired material. 
It is for Windows because i am making applications for Windows platforms. And Windows is still most used operating system.



g_axelsson said:


> Then there is the security issue, I bet many are nervous to run unknown software on their computers. I'm always wary that I might install software infected with viruses. I'm not accusing you, but how do I know that your computer isn't infected? A website doesn't have that problem unless you add a lot of extras like flash animations.
> I might be overanxious about computer security, but then it's almost 20 years since I last saw a virus on one of my machines, a word macro virus brought home by my girlfriend without knowing it.
> Göran



I just scanned it for viruses on totalvirus website and here is the picture with results.



I made this application and i know that it have no virus. No one have to believe me but i dare anyone to prove me anyhow that virus is in my application. Not any of antiviruses will detect it because there isn't virus. That is a sure way you could believe me on this one. 



g_axelsson said:


> I agree that there is a problem with descriptions scattered all over the place, that was the driving force behind me starting the wiki. I'm writing short descriptions and put links to relevant threads just so people wouldn't need to do a lot of searches. I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project.
> Göran



That way you are saving time of people finding threads of all kind of posts containing yields. They will still have to do lot of reading through the posts to see all of the details, pictures etc (if they find it all there).

When the users of Hydra Siege starts the application they can browse data yields and when they pick one they will get concrete report of that data yield inside of PDF document containing pictures, all details and of course author/person who made that test. 

I think there is a big difference between those two approaches.

But, after all thats why users will have 2 free downloads so they could try it first, they will see how it looks like and they will choose will they buy a next report or not. It is not about your or mine opinion. You haven't even tried the application and you are finding all possible ways to prove that there are much of problems there but in reality the application works brilliant and i will gladly answer to all of your questions because if not for any other reason, just because you have "been there, done that" where you "think" i am now.


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## Tzoax (Feb 12, 2017)

Auful said:


> Maybe building it, instead of in .net, mysql with a php or java front end so it's web based and available cross platform so non-windows users like me don't have to run a virtal machine to use it? Great idea, though! Wouldn't it also be more scalable at that point as well?



Yes, that way it would not be depending by operating system. But, i am making programs only in .NET.


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## patnor1011 (Feb 12, 2017)

Tzoax said:


> "Why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway."
> Because this way people will get detailed PDF document (3 pages with pictures) about specific material from safe source (well known, experienced refiners), because it is fast, and when database grows it will become great place to find any yield of anything.



I understand however this way it look appealing mainly for people who suddenly got interested in refining and want to figure out what is worth doing and what not. But then you know very well as you did quite a lot of IC yourself that there are many hundreds of different types of IC, pins, boards.... It will become cost prohibitive even for newbies and lazy people to buy and get reports for most of what is in there. It is quite obvious to anybody that when you start looking into things in more detailed way you will be overwhelmed with amount of data available. 




Tzoax said:


> "If someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?"
> If you add one data yield, you will be rewarded with one free data yield download. And people who eventually pay money for that data yield will pay to account of people who owns this application, in this case Ken and me. I think it is fair enough, but we will see how things are going to go work out.



I respectfully disagree that this is a fair deal. I understand that you do have cost associated with creating and running this application however from perspective of contributor I struggle to see any fairness in this. You reward contributor with once off sort of quid pro quo payment but then all potential revenue (which will be) created is lost to the original contributor. 
Let me give you example based on my own experience.
My first ebook was uploaded on forum in 2011. In about a year it got over 10k downloads. I do not know exact number but it was anything between 10-15k if I remember correctly. I took it off for a brief period in 2012 but then decided to post it again here and to many more places just to prevent possibility that someone will be getting financial gain out of selling it (yes that happened). From 2012 when more people started using this method and now youtube and net is quite full of it, it still managed to get downloaded another 2765 times. And that is despite that it was published and spread out on quite a lot of another websites as I already mentioned. What if I decided to sell it for just 1$? Of course not everyone would buy it but simple math will show what that numbers could be if 50%, 30%, 25%, 10% or even just 1% would pay to get it. 
Now compare surrendering this, to gain just one similar ebook. 

To summarize my thinking I applaud effort you put into this but current structure is favorable only to you and Ken and there is pretty much nothing to be gained to potential contributors. On the contrary they will be losing on this deal. As for the users they may benefit from using it (mainly new inexperienced or lazy ones) but lack of contributors will restrict any revenue possibility for you and Ken.


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## patnor1011 (Feb 12, 2017)

What you did on your IC thread is something not many people here would do and in my opinion you could just carry on and make more tests, compile them to some pdf or program as I see you like to create them and then offer this for sale. There are so many of different IC around you could be working years to update it as time go by. That way it could be nice bonus or reward for your effort and I myself would happily buy one and I am sure many of members here would do the same.


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## aga (Feb 12, 2017)

Selling information is always very very difficult.

In the context of this forum, it simply cannot work.

People here put in their time, effort and expense, then share their knowledge so that other refiners can use that information.

If we all had to pay for every question, we would all want to be paid for every answer.

That goes against the Spirit of this forum - "Gold Refiners Helping One Another".


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## patnor1011 (Feb 12, 2017)

You are correct. However some things require quite a lot of time and resources so some remuneration is to be expected. Nothing in life comes free.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 12, 2017)

Alexander, it seems the direction of this project has changed since you started it. In your opening post you said "First i would make online database with which application Hydra Siege will communicate, and where all yield data would be saved. All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data". Now, it seems that to see that data, a user must either upload data of their own or pay for the data?

I admit that I have not downloaded your application, but since you say it's not populated with any data yet, I don't know that it would answer any questions for me.

So if a user registers, can they see any yield data? Or are they just able to search a list of materials (as data is uploaded) and they have to use one of their downloads to see any data?

I want to understand how your application works. Are you sharing the yield data for "free", but "charging" something (whether it be in the form of an upload or a PayPal payment) for much more detailed information in the form of a three page pdf? Perhaps if you populated it with the data you already posted in your other thread, we could take a look at how it actually works.

Dave


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## Tzoax (Feb 13, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> To summarize my thinking I applaud effort you put into this but current structure is favorable only to you and Ken and there is pretty much nothing to be gained to potential contributors. On the contrary they will be losing on this deal. As for the users they may benefit from using it (mainly new inexperienced or lazy ones) but lack of contributors will restrict any revenue possibility for you and Ken.



Pat, thank you for sharing your experience and opinion. You are basically saying that contributors should have something more in return besides 1:1 free download per post. And you are saying that without contributors application will not work, and you have right. 

We are inviting experienced members to contribute and i believe that there are people who will except it and be satisfied to allow this project works, who will be glad to be part of this project which is designed to give users real data yield from their tests, and who will not look at this like way to earn something but to contribute. And we will see will it be like that, i don't know, time will tell.

And one more thing about paying. All new users using application will have 2 free downloads. If you or anyone else try application and download any desired PDF document you will see what you would get if you paid for it, and then you can decide will you buy next one or not. And then compare this way of getting information with any other and you will understand me much better.

If you think a problem is because people will be paying for PDF documents, but you think this project is basically a good idea and should be free or something like that, no one is preventing anyone to make such application. For example Göran has "been there, done that" (programming) so i guess it will not be problem for him to "keep track of a few numbers" and make free version of similar application. But i am sure you and other contributors would be well rewarded in that case.

It is not easy at it looks, to build this kind of application, to make everything works and to take care of it.


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## Tzoax (Feb 13, 2017)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Alexander, it seems the direction of this project has changed since you started it. In your opening post you said "First i would make online database with which application Hydra Siege will communicate, and where all yield data would be saved. All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data". Now, it seems that to see that data, a user must either upload data of their own or pay for the data?
> 
> I admit that I have not downloaded your application, but since you say it's not populated with any data yet, I don't know that it would answer any questions for me.
> 
> ...




Dave, i will make Youtube video how application works in details and i will post a link here. I will make few "test" data yields for that. i think that is the best way to anyone see how it works.

Alexander


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 13, 2017)

I've always considered these lists of component values as being next to worthless, especially when plating was involved. These lists assume that the parts are consistent in their values and that's not true at all. There are variations due to different manufacturers and different customers. Plating thicknesses can vary from day to day and even hour to hour due to chemical changes in the plating bath. They can also vary from part to part even though they were plated at the same time on the same plating rack. If you separately analyzed 2 parts that were plated together, I guarantee that you would get different numbers.

Personally, if I were spending good money to buy a lot of PM bearing electronic scrap, I would never, ever trust anyone else's numbers. That's a good way to go broke. To me, a basic part of being a refiner is to be able to accurately sample and assay material on your own. If you can't do this, you are much more likely to lose money.

I don't think it's possible for Tzoax, Ken, myself, or anyone else to compose a totally reliable list of component values.


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## Palladium (Feb 13, 2017)

I think it's a good and bad idea when looked at from different perspectives. My concern first is it cost something for the consumer or student to access. I have arguments for and against that and understand the time and effort it takes to compile and distribute information. My biggest concern is that the information is gathered in one central location and controlled by a selected individual or group of individuals who at anytime can limit access, sale the database to outside sources, or just pull the plug on the whole thing. To me discussion and the FREE dissemination of information to the public is the greatest way to stir intellect and stimulate innovation for the free market and capitalism. If when that information is in the hands of a selected few or restricted by monetary access then the spirit of education and the advancement of that science suffers.
As a free market venture i understand the argument, but the fact it involves being tied to two non for profit forums geared for free educational purposes as the basis for the data and the promotion of the of the program bothers me somewhat. 

So where do i sign up! :mrgreen:


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## jeneje (Feb 13, 2017)

Guy's, I have stayed out of this for the most part, but i will give my two cents now. It is common fact that throughout the world, just about any place you go, you can now find a post or video on how to refine precious metals.

This for many, many years was a kept secret in the industry from the common people who was interested in learning. With this forum and other places the secret was let out. 

Now the secret has become yield data, no one wants to share real data. True yield data that can be provided in one central place has a value to it, It is true that the data will vary some, but it isn't going to vary that much. The days of buying karat scrap for nothing and making a small fortune is gone. 

It has turned to E-waste and knowing what you are buying and how much it will yield is key. This is a ongoing project by Alexander, he has invested a lot of time and work into it and it is not going away anytime soon. He and I are dedicated to it's success. With the AA i just brought and a new furnace for assay work I can help Alexander where I can, at this time all I have done is provide him with a server that can handle anything he deems he needs. I am proud to be able to do this for the man and in the future maybe, I will make a little off of it. If not, that is fine too. 

Personal feeling about myself or my site should not have any bearing on this project of Alexander's, at least give the man the time of day he deserves.

Ken


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## patnor1011 (Feb 13, 2017)

My comments were not aimed against anybody. For me it is just simple logic. If I decide to give out something for free then I am giving it in a way that whoever want it will simply have it for free. 
From the looks of it if I contribute I will be giving it out for free yet whoever will want to have it will have to pay. That make no sense to me.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Feb 13, 2017)

Its the digital age... Where information wants to be free.
But, there comes the problem.. Peoples time is worth money, as should be their hard earned knowledge. But, (as an example) android development.. The vast majority of apps are free... How do they get paid for their countless hours of testing and debugging? In app purchases, or a donate section in the app which links to their paypal, and the like.

I see both sides of the fence, and I know Alexander will find a resolution so everyone can benefit from it. Those putting in their hard work, and those wanting to check numbers to see how their yields compare. But, I also see the issue gsp brought up... No two processes of the "same" material have the same outcome. It will hopefully get them in the ballpark though.


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## 4metals (Feb 13, 2017)

I think part of the problem comes from the fact that no-one who will supply data for this project will have had their credentials vetted. If I get one freebee for everything I post how do you know I haven't just made it up to get a look at the data I want for free? Unfortunately the internet gives us all a degree of invisibility and you cannot believe everything you read. I have made databases in the past for clients to record assays and yields for various materials submitted by various customers. These are very valuable to the refinery because they know that they can believe the data because it was generated in house. These are closely guarded company documents and for good reason. I doubt a list of values generated by a variety of skilled and quasi skilled refiners listing value per unit of measure could ever rise to such standards as a business owner / scrap buyer would trust to the same degree as his or her hard learned personally processed lists. 

By being a contributing member of this forum members begin to recognize the names of posters and they can factor into their acceptance the source. By reading posts from members you can see how they have developed and what type of answers they give to questions and from that you can infer whether or not you choose to believe what the poster says. 

Chris is absolutely correct that the variation amongst components is quite large and even ballpark numbers can differ considerably. Will information be given about sample sizes and analytical methodology or refining techniques used. All these things matter. The real skill is to learn how to figure it out for yourself and buying accordingly. That's a hands on skill, not a read it off a list made from data from unvetted sources.


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## Geo (Feb 13, 2017)

It's a good thing to keep in mind that yield data is subjective. Even if you had build specs on a particular item, four different refiners will achieve four different yields on the same item. You can have an original manufacturers assay of a particular part and still have any number of random refiners come up with different yields. 
With that being said, I feel you can have a "reasonable expectation" of the yield of any particular item within a certain range. There should never be an "absolute expectation" where it is assumed that each item will yield exactly a certain amount of metal. This will only cause a dispute and distrust among people. Yield "expectations" can vary widely from one refiner to another. No two uses the exact same process with the exact same equipment. 
A tool such as this is good for the beginner when calculating expected yields when making purchases but for the experienced, not so much.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 13, 2017)

I disagree with Geo. I feel that, since the newbie is more apt to take these inherently inaccurate value lists as gospel, they can be quite dangerous to the newbie's bottom line. This is not the 1st time value lists have been made. There have been maybe half a dozen on the forum over the years. The only one that I ever halfway acknowledged was the one that Samuel_a made up and the only reason I did was because I knew that Sam was a better refiner than any of the other people that made these lists. 

If one wants to know the value of various parts, the last thing they should do is buy one of these lists. If they want REAL numbers, they should get a fire assay setup and learn how to sample and assay.


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## aga (Feb 13, 2017)

I probably should keep quiet, but here goes ...

PM (especially Gold) recovery/refining is a particular animal - it attracts All, yet only a few ever actually do it.

Some of those who actually Do refining kindly help out noobs like me on this forum, for free.

The main problem with this idea is that the information is taken for free and then sold _without the originator _getting any $.

If the contributors of the information were *also* rewarded, on a per-download/per-licence basis, same as the software author, chances are that there would be more contributions, and more valuable data to be sold.

I'm also a programmer. This software isn't new or hard to do - it just needs the data.

In essence, the idea is good, but the approach is wrong .

Just share the money fairly and you'll end up with more money than 0 from this idea.


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## anachronism (Feb 14, 2017)

goldsilverpro said:


> I've always considered these lists of component values as being next to worthless, especially when plating was involved. These lists assume that the parts are consistent in their values and that's not true at all. There are variations due to different manufacturers and different customers. Plating thicknesses can vary from day to day and even hour to hour due to chemical changes in the plating bath. They can also vary from part to part even though they were plated at the same time on the same plating rack. If you separately analyzed 2 parts that were plated together, I guarantee that you would get different numbers.
> 
> From experience I can say that Chris is completely correct in this statement. In fact there's a pile of wrong information even on here about plating thicknesses especially when it comes to things like pins. Statements on the lines of "pin yields are never above xxx or 100g of pins = 0.1g of gold" cannot be held as accurate because put simply every batch of pins is different by application. The same applies to plating. When you've seen enough of it you know that you may be able to say something like "the flash plating on an HP xxx revision 1 motherboard is yyy microns thick" but you cannot realistically go any further without that level of specification. As such you're going to have to introduce more fields on your information to qualify the raw material if you want to make this useable.
> 
> ...


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## Tzoax (Feb 14, 2017)

You guys are probably right, sorry to have brother all of you about this. Thank you.

Alexander


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## anachronism (Feb 14, 2017)

Tzoax said:


> You guys are probably right, sorry to have brother all of you about this. Thank you.
> 
> Alexander



Don't take it that way. Think outside the box and make some alterations that make it better. For example what if you listed a range of yields by contributor or added the extra fields I suggested to add context to the information. If people all stopped something because others offered improvements then nothing would ever get done.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 14, 2017)

I feel the same way about those catalytic converter lists. Not reliable, even the one that sold for $10,000 (true).

About 12-15 years ago, I knew a guy that bought and refined CPUs and was good at it. He showed me a stack of photos that showed about every possible type of CPU. On the back of the photos, he had written the gold value. He had paid $100 each to have these fire assayed. He said the assays were quite close to the yields. He probably could have sold the list but he didn't want more competition. This was in a large city and he had a good lock on the CPU business there.


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## kurtak (Feb 14, 2017)

As has already been said by 4metals, GSP, Jon & Pat - all of whom I agree with - there is NO WAY you can provide "reliable" yield date on the vast majority of electronic scrap &/or its components --- "especially" considering the way in which you are planning to compile this data (from "anyone" willing to proved "their" data)

There are a FEW exceptions to the above statement (but VERY few) - such as CPUs

Examples ----------

Plating; - As mentioned by GSP - plating on fingers can very by a lot depending age of equipment, type of equipment, manufacture spec, etc. --- anyone with any "real" experience "knows" this --- Fingers can (not always - but can) very by as much as .5 gram per pound --- in other words - "may" have a smaller variance from one batch to the next (but a variance none the less) they can also have a big variance --- so its a "law of averages" based on what's "in the mix" &/or batch size

Plated pins can & most likely will very even more then fingers - a very good example of this is some pins I just recently did - they where "exactly" the same "type" of pins that I had got in about 5 years ago - the "only" difference was the pins from 5 years ago came out of equipment that was from the 1980s --- this batch came out of much more recent equipment - the pins (in both cases) were about 2" long & fully plated - the batch 5 years ago had "heavy" plating on the "whole" pin - the kind of plating that retains the shape of the pin after dissolving the base metal away & I remember these pins well because yield was like 3 grams per pound --- so I was excited when I got this recent batch in - BUT - this batch was NOT like those old pins - only about a 3/8 of an inch of the tip of the pin had the heavy plating that retained the shape of the pin - the rest of the pin was only "flash" plated that turned to ultra fine plating dust when the base metal was dissolved away - the result was less then a gram per pound - needless to say I was very disappointed

IC chips - again - yields can very a little from batch to batch - or - by a lot from batch to batch - not only because yield depends "in part" on age of equipment, type of equipment, manufacture spec, etc. --- but IC chip yield also depends "in large part" in the individuals processing ability/method/batch size etc. etc.

Just like plating - what you will find with chips - is you can take chips the look exactly the same - & what you find (concerning the bonding wires) is some of those chips will have longer & larger diameter wires - & some will have shorter smaller diameter wires - so yield depends on "what is in the mix"

Bottom line - IC chips again fall under "the law of averages" - meaning there is no way to provide "true" accurate data

Add to that - that when you ramp up from "small" test batches to processing larger batches - that "test" data can be a "far cry" from the test batch (&/or fire assay) used to come up with the data

Believe me - I have run MANY 100s of pounds of IC chips (I would say close to a actual ton) over the years - AND - I have had yields come out as much as 20 - 25 percent "under the expected yield" - AND - that is including "going back over" the ash, the magnetic legs, copper legs etc. to try to figure out where my "expected" gold went --- the gold didn't go anywhere - it just wasn't there :!: :!: :!: 

MLCCs - these you will NEVER get any true data on --- the reason for that is there are two different types of MLCCs - BME (Base Metal Electrode) & NME (Noble Metal Electrode) MLCCs --- Sooo - depending on the ratio of BME to NME in the "mix" of MLCCs - the Ag/Pd recovery is going to be "all over the map"

The best you can do with MLCCs is to do a fire assay on "every batch" & then they need to be "well mixed"

Bottom line - I don't see this working - first because you intend to build your data base on "other" peoples "in put" - that's NOT a reliable source of data - secondly even if you did ALL the data yourself - it would not be reliable --- therefore (as someone with LOTS of experience) - I would nether provide data nor would I EVER pay for such data --- AND - my advice to anyone less experienced would be - "beware of snake oil salesmen"

Kurt


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## 4metals (Feb 14, 2017)

Reading this thread made me realize that the issue with producing reliable data is a function of certain variables which we have little control over such as variations within the material (ie. consistency of plating thickness between lots, manufacturers, mil spec or non mil spec. and dates of manufacture), or processing method chosen to recover the values, or even how completely the material was prepared before the refining. 

An example of preparation is the often heard term "closely trimmed fingers" A lot of fingers that were trimmed very close can vary by 10 or 15% from identical fingers trimmed "pretty close". That makes the yield per pound vary considerably. We could list our own first hand variables all day on different types of pre treated scrap, so it is easy to understand what I'm saying. 

And the last variable concerns the sample. Both Chris and I always stress the importance of the assay and knowing how much gold is in your material and that involves assaying. And the truth of the matter is that a precisely run assay isn't worth anything if the material was improperly sampled. 

If there is enough interest, I will start a thread about sampling, or more appropriately representative sampling. There are many many different techniques to sampling and different materials require different techniques. But we have a good number of members here who can offer valuable input on this topic if there is enough interest. Once you learn how to sample properly, it is possible to sample and send representative samples to a lab for fire assay or instrumental analysis. Or if you're really motivated we can let the discussion evolve into fire assaying and even running an AA. 

I could deal with a fresh new topic. Opinions?


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## aga (Feb 14, 2017)

A Generic thread on Sampling sounds like a good idea.

Defining any results of sampling specific items might be more trouble than it's worth, as each 'sampler' could argue the results.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Feb 14, 2017)

I like the sound of that too.

A sampling and assaying thread would be awesome.

Maybe another thread going over all the fancy (expensive) testing machines as well. Their pro's and con's, etc..


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 14, 2017)

I'm all for a sampling/assaying thread.

Assaying is easy. Sampling is hard. All an assay does is tell you what's in the sample. A bad sample produces a worthless assay.


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## anachronism (Feb 15, 2017)

Chris whilst I agree that sampling is hard could you explain how assaying is easy for the average home refiner please? To put some meat onto the bones of my question:

Whilst taking one processor (as an example) and recovering all the gold/silver/PGM into solution is pretty easy if done correctly, the quantitative part seems a lot more tricky to get right. I appreciate that technically one could dissolve ten or twenty identical processors in one solution to even out the bumps and obtain a measurable amount to calculate the yield per processor, however having a large enough sample size isn't always going to be possible. 

For "one offs" surely the best and most accurate way would be to dissolve, destroy the nitric, make a known volume liquid and use an AA, and that's where it deviates a little from the average home user. The AA will be able to tell you all the relevant metal ppms and then you can calculate the yield per piece. 

If I am missing something here that will give the kind of solid accuracy this database is looking for then I'm all ears but I am wracking my brains to think of it. I currently can't see beyond the AA for providing this level of detail for such small potential samples so I'm open to suggestions :? 

Regards

Jon


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## kurtak (Feb 15, 2017)

A thread about sampling & assay would be great



anachronism said:


> If I am missing something here that will give the kind of solid accuracy this database is looking for



Jon 

I don't think GSP &/or 4metals are talking about discussing sampling & assay for the purpose of coming up with an accurate database of yield "per type" component such as Alexander has suggested here

Rather - I believe they are talking about sampling & assay as a way of determining value of a batch/lot done per batch/lot

If that is the case (GSP &/or 4metals please correct me if I am wrong) then sampling & assay should be discussed in its own thread --- on the other hand if the sample/assay is for building a reliable/accurate database - then it should be discussed here

Personally - having been at this for something like 7 or 8 years - as a means of making a living (meaning for profit) I just don't see coming up with a database that is so to speak "reliable/accurate" based on a sample/assay of a particular component/item (ie. fingers, pins, chips etc.)

The best you could do ("after" running many samples) is provide a list that says - I have had yields as high as X & as low as Y on this item

In my 7 - 8 years of doing this - this is what I can say --- I have done batches that made my eyes bug out because the yield was "way" higher then I expected - BUT - I have also done batches that made me scratch my head with a frown on my face because the yield was "way" lower then I expected 

And for the record - when I run a batch - I "do not" throw ANYTHING away until I am done with the batch --- if the batch comes out in the ball park of what I expected or higher I call it good to go --- if it comes in "under" my expectation - I go back through "everything" to double check for loss - rarely - if ever has doing so brought my disappointing yield up to what was expected (meaning the "expected" gold just was not there in the first place)

That said - granted - for the most part batches of a particular item (say fingers) will run "a bit" to the plus or minus side (but none the less - still plus or minus) of expectation --- BUT you will also have batches that come in so low its very disappointing - & as well batches that come in so high you jump with joy - & that is especially true if/when you start running "larger" batches on a regular bases

Kurt


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## 4metals (Feb 15, 2017)

I think this deserves a separate thread and when I get home (where the good books live!) I will begin a thread in the Sampling / Assaying / Testing section. 

The value of proper sampling is more skewed to larger lots, and I agree with Chris that the good sampling is the hard part, not the analytics, once you have learned the process. But we can all express our opinions about this in the new thread. 

Kurt is correct, the proper sampling will help the small and intermediate refiner get better results when shipping out material or keep their in house processing in line with expected yields. I do not hold out a lot of hope for a database such as the HYDRA SIEGE project producing valuable data, although properly sampled and assayed materials will improve the results. Much like the old computer programming saying "garbage in, garbage out", the same is true with assay results. Garbage in = unrepresentative samples submitted for assay, garbage out is the assay result of those bad samples. 

I will start writing on my laptop and post a thread shortly (day or two) in the Sampling / Assaying / Testing section and in time I will come back here and link the thread.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 15, 2017)

As it happens, I'm running a number of batches on CPU:s I have to get a better picture of how much gold I have in my scrap. The view that components can hold different content of gold depending on a number of factors are correct.
After treating a kilo of 486 CPU:s in aqua regia I discovered a couple that still had gold braze holding the die in the ceramic cavity but when I cleaned them out I discovered that some in fact looked to be glued in. There also were a large difference in die size so the amount of gold used to braze a CPU could differ with the exact model number.

So this is the two 486 CPU:s I could identify as the dies was still loosely attached to the ceramics.


Both chips would be identified and sold as 486 CPU:s, for example by boardsort. My guess is that it can differ quite a lot in yield between the two CPU:s.
These two dies were still attached on the bodies when I picked them up out of the acid. It turned out to be made by two different manufacturers (Intel and IBM) and differed about four years in development. One was a DX model while the other one was a DX2 model.



Seeing this with my own eyes I don't trust my own yield numbers any longer. My sample wasn't random as the IBM CPU:s were over represented in this test sample. I started with the most mangled ones and these had heat sinks glued to the top and got a bit smashed up when I removed them.

Göran


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## anachronism (Feb 16, 2017)

Goran

Firstly that's two different 486 procs. You've got a range of them from sx-16 procs all the way through to DX4-100. Some are gold lidded whilst others are not, even within the same type.Then you've got the different years of manufacture and to add to this you have the different factories they were made in. I only mention all this to back up what you're saying. 

In essence we have an expression in the UK that says it's like "comparing apples with oranges." Nobody can say that a 486 has a particular yield. In order to present a database that is accurate, all the yields for every above variation would have to be included on a separate line. Anything less would be a generalisation, and inherently misleading.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 16, 2017)

I was surprised to see the glue, but not to see the different sizes of dies. Still, boardsort and others have a unit price for 486 CPU:s and I have never seen a sale where 486 CPU:s were sorted into different batches.

So not only do you need to have different entries for every subtype of CPU, you need to convince the seller to sort the CPU:s according to that list too.

It's more like comparing different apple sorts when you go down into details like this.

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 16, 2017)

I've seen quite a bit of epoxy (so I've been told) used to secure the chip, especially on ceramic DIPs. I've also seen silver braze used on DIPs with silver plated legs.

Another thing to consider is the size of the chip. As everyone should know by now, the gold braze used to attach the lids and the chips usually makes up more than half of the gold found on these parts, even when everything else is gold plated. The gold braze used is in the form they call braze preforms. These are small sheets of eutectic braze, about a mil (.001"), or so, thick. The larger the chip, the bigger the preform. Therefore, those ICs with large chips tend to contain more gold than those with small chips.


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## kurtak (Feb 16, 2017)

Goran 

Your pics are a "perfect" example of what we have been talking about - thanks for posting them :!: 



anachronism said:


> Goran
> 
> Firstly that's two different 486 procs. You've got a range of them from sx-16 procs all the way through to DX4-100. Some are gold lidded whilst others are not, even within the same type.Then you've got the different years of manufacture and to add to this you have the different factories they were made in. I only mention all this to back up what you're saying.
> 
> In essence we have an expression in the UK that says it's like "comparing apples with oranges." Nobody can say that a 486 has a particular yield. In order to present a database that is accurate, all the yields for every above variation would have to be included on a separate line. Anything less would be a generalisation, and inherently misleading.



Per the underlined - correct - as in ABSOLUTELY CORRECT 

Now translate that into IC chips & the variations of yields on the same "type" are even greater

Considering the fact that I run - "on average" - about 500 pounds of chips "per year" & have been doing so for 4 years (maybe even 5 years now) & I run them in batches of "at least" 30 pounds & preferably batches of 50 - 60 pounds - I can tell you "from experience" you are going to have batches (of the "very same" type chip) that are VERY disappointing - granted you will have some that run better then expected also --- (if I had to put a number on it I would say you will see 2 disappointing batches for every 1 better then expected)

The bottom line is - & I don't care how many small batch test you runs &/or how many fire assays you run on a particular "type" chip - you are going to have "highs" & "lows" & "many" numbers in between (presuming you use a scale accurate to the 4th decimal & NOT a scale only accurate to 1 decimal) 

The best you can do - is "after" running MANY test/assay - on the same type chip - is come up with a yield number that is based on "the law of average" 

When you buy on the law of average - be prepared for disappointment - sometimes VERY disappointing

You can buy on the law of average & make out "OK" - in the LONG run --- BUT - you also have to buy in large enough volume for the law of average to work in your favor - other wise buying on the law of average is a flat out gamble

Edit to add - bottom is there is a difference between a list that represents an "average of yield" and one that claims to be yield data 

An "average yield" list is just that --- it represents the average - of a given number of samples &/or batches - of equal size

Data - is a set number - of expectation

Two "different" things :!: 

Kurt


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## 4metals (Feb 16, 2017)

When faced with a customer that is selling you the material and demanding payment vs. toll refining, as a refiner you have no choice but to use the historical low as a payout figure. This is where record keeping comes in handy. 

But if you were toll refining, and the yield was high, the customer makes out better. This is exactly why it pays to develop a relationship with a refiner you can trust, people today are greedy and will trade loyalty of an honest refiner for a few percent. Then a lower grade lot comes in and they swear it is the refiner. Truth is the variances can be extreme for good reason, as Goran posted a few posts up from here. 

I learned the same kind of lesson years ago when dealing with contractors. Some insist on a fixed quote for a job. Often there are hidden what if scenario's that a contractor must charge for if he is to be held to a quote. I always chose contractors who I trusted to give me a fair day's work, and just had them work for time and materials.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 16, 2017)

4metals said:


> When faced with a customer that is selling you the material and demanding payment vs. toll refining, as a refiner you have no choice but to use the historical low as a payout figure. This is where record keeping comes in handy.


I totally agree with you. I didn't know how much gold a 486 CPU contained before but I did a calculation based on boardsorts prices and some approximations. It looks like I'm within percents on what I expected for a general 486 even on this lot that now seems like a low yield test. Looks like boardsort have adjusted their prices to the low yielding CPU:s of a category so they still earn money if someone was to only sell them chips with dies glued in.

Time to start another test...  

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 19, 2017)

I've always said that, "In any buying/selling PM scrap negotiation, the person that has the greatest amount of knowledge concerning the actual PM value of the material in question, always wins." This knowledge of values has to come from YOUR OWN evaluation. Anything else will lose money in the long run. By your own evaluation, I am including sending the samples that you took out for assay. I do think that every one should pull their own samples. Almost anyone selling PM scrap will allow you to pull samples.


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## 4metals (Feb 19, 2017)

I think a good example of this can be polishing sweeps. I've run literally thousands of fusions and cupellations on jewelers sweeps but if anyone ever asked me how much a pound of raw jewelers sweeps is worth I could give you an answer. But I couldn't give you an answer that you could use, or that you would feel good about if you paid for that answer. There are just too many variables. 

It depends on the type of polishing rouge, red or green, how heavy handed the polisher is, what karat the jeweler was polishing, and if there were brushes and buffs mixed in with the sweeps. 

So what makes this any different from asking what 100 pounds of mother boards is worth? Or 100 pounds of plated pins?


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