# Sodium Nitrate



## jimdoc (May 24, 2007)

Has anybody else seen this from Megan Rose's Gold Ezine?;


BREAKING NEWS: SODIUM NITRATE
Enforcement efforts begun by CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission) and 
DOT (Department of Transportation) have resulted in the Government winning on 
all counts Case # CV-04-577-E-BLW, April 30, 2007, US District Court-Idaho.

In this era of post Oklahoma City bombing and 9/11 Patriot Act enforcement 
efforts, a multi-year action against a small Pocatello, ID company, filed 
November 16, 2004 has now concluded. This company retailed among other inventoried 
items, many oxidizers, including SODIUM NITRATE and small micron zinc dust, 
aluminum particles, magnesium particles and many other oxidizer items and solids 
listed in the Federal Hazardous Substances Act, as well as the final order 
and judgment.

It is Pen Press' opinion, that the CPSC with the DOT joining this 3 year 
fracas against the defendants, Firefox of Pocatello, ID and Gary Purrington, et 
al, that this is the first time quantities of oxidizers of any sort have been 
more narrowly defined in the Memorandum Decision and Order as well as the 
Judgment in the following manner:

Quantity, type, use, packaging, record-keeping detail, customer id, customer 
purpose for purchase, as well as duration of business relationship, frequency 
of purchase, etc., are all covered in the final judgment. 

The arguments included who had jurisdiction, ATFE (Alcohol, Tobacco, 
Firearms, Explosives) and/or DOT and/or CPSC. When all the smoke was cleared, the 
judge found overlap but no enforcement jurisdictional inconsistencies in the 
overlap. The standard applied to purchases of both oxidizers and other solids 
considered fuels was most restrictive, and arguably used by those pursuing the 
rocketry hobby, and creating homemade fireworks such as M80s. It is commonly 
known through the internet that Firefox also supplied hobby gold refiners with 
their Sodium Nitrate product, although that hobby gold refining category of 
usage was not addressed per se in this lawsuit brought by the government.

The CPSC won on their argument that defendants' buyers of oxidizers and other 
listed solids fuels did not constitute definition of "personal use" by their 
customers. Firefox customer records (109) were tracked back to 1999 and 
entered as part of the government's exhibits. CPSC investigators claimed Firefox's 
claim of sale for personal use was not a valid argument for the listed 
chemicals, because there was no "personal care" nor "personal use in the home" of 
the listed oxidizers and related fuel items. The defendants could not produce 
any expert testimony to the contrary. The judge ruled in CPSC's favor on this 
non-personal use argument.

The government claimed Firefox used inappropriate packaging and labeling 
ship-ments of listed oxidizers of which Sodium Nitrate was one, shipped under 
ORM-D Blue Label, was also a violation of DOT 49 U.S.C. paragraphs 5122 a & b. 

The new judgment against the losing defendant is a restriction to sell only 
1# of any such listed item or oxidizer in the lawsuit, per person, per 12 month 
period, that Firefox can sell. Additionally, most stringent record keeping 
standards, identification prior to purchase, discernment and recording of the 
usage of listed oxidizers by the buyer, et al, and current agreement for 
future unannounced search were also levied against this business and co-defendants.

A source believed to be reliable who was close to the investigation stated 
that since the government won in IDAHO District Court, they were going after a 
"Virginia source" of oxidizers next. At this time, Pen Press doesn't know 
whether that would be a retailer or a wholesaler distributor under DOT or CPSE 
scruitiny. While that could be anyone, Pen Press interprets this to mean that 
this restrictive ruling is now going to serve as an important new enforcement 
plank in the platform of restricting more individuals' access to powdered 
oxidizers and propellants in quantities over 1# per person per calendar year.

The judgment requires any purchase amounts OVER 1# only be permitted to be 
sold to authorized holders of EX # (federal explosive permit) and properly ID'd 
individuals during any calendar year by Firefox.

While all long standing customers and readers of Ms. Megan's kits will 
recognize the following to be true, Ms. Megan has very much been vocally opposed to 
purchase or use of Sodium Nitrate as an oxidizer by hobbyist refiners. She 
always has been. Most of the bad press Ms. Megan has received over the last 5 
years in particular, especially by oxidizer sellers in various auction formats, 
said attacks have primarily been due to her adversaries railing against her 
unflinching position that sodium nitrate is not a viable nor desirable protocol 
option as a substitute for Nitric Acid. In interviewing Ms. Megan for this 
article, she said: 
"Those adults who choose to engage in hobby gold refining on their personal 
property are constantly advised--by my adversaries--to regularly dissolve 1/2# 
of Sodium Nitrate before stirring into one powerful acid or another in their 
pursuit of gold refining. Since the very real potential now exists for 
purchasers to be limited to 1# per 12 month period, this would severely reduce the 
ease of access to this unacceptable oxidizer. It appears my long held 
opposition to its use has merit."

Pen Press believes the way is now cleared to systematically pursue and attack 
all
retail sales outlets who have openly sold sodium nitrate, zinc dust, and 
other listed
Hazardous Substances Act chemicals listed on the govt website as oxidizers as 
well as those listed in this lawsuit and final judgement. Historically, 
restriction of access usually leads to escalation in item costs as enforcement and 
record-keeping requirements' cost always get passed through to the purchaser. 


Furthermore, those who have openly purchased said oxidizers on public sites 
have
undoubtedly been logged in this 3year court effort to restrict just one Idaho 
retailer. A simple "screen name" will not hide anyone from research and 
investigation.

Pen Press also believes those who promote/teach and advise others to use such 
oxidizers as the listed sodium nitrate and zinc dust and aluminum dust, etc., 
will
also be eventually found and confronted in the ongoing oxidizers and hobbyist 
rocketry fuel sweep under the Patriot Act investigation and enforcement 
action now clearly underway and revealed for the first time in this issue of the 
GEeZ.

For the GEeZ reader's aid in further research, the 4 pages of Docket and the 
front
page of the lawsuit Judgement are to be found on:

http://members.aol.com/zeehansen/breakingnews.htm


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## lazersteve (May 30, 2007)

How long you think it will be before they outlaw the sale of muriatic acid, Clorox bleach, and 3% hydrogen peroxide? :wink: 

Steve


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## firedan525 (May 31, 2007)

Well, after learning Steves Auric Chloride technique, I see a very limited use for AR now. It still would be nice to still have on hand just in case.


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## lazersteve (May 31, 2007)

Dan,

AR will always hold it's place when speed is a main factor. Also it takes the cake for processing karat jewelry. Maybe one day we all can put our heads together and solve the karat gold riddle in a more safe and economical way besides AR. Platinum processing may be an area which AR has a firm foot hold. AR has been around since nearly the dawn of civilized man for good reason... it serves a definite purpose and serves it well. That's not to say new techniques are useless, but with big brother tightening his grip on society more everyday, they may be our only alternatives to traditional methods.

Steve


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## Harold_V (Jun 1, 2007)

lazersteve said:


> That's not to say new techniques are useless, but with big brother tightening his grip on society more everyday, they may be our only alternatives to traditional methods.
> 
> Steve



I'm good to go with the old, tried and proven methods, but they may be out of the reach of the average guy these days. I commend you for the work you've been doing in coming up with work-arounds, particularly for sharing things as you do. 

Harold


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## aflacglobal (Jun 4, 2007)

Oh No !!!! I know he didn't just use the word Big Brother. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## jimdoc (Jun 23, 2007)

I just went to Home Depot to get some muriatic acid, and couldn't find it anywhere. I asked where it is and they said they don't sell it anymore because it is hazardous. He then said "hardware store" as in I should get it there. I felt like asking Oh you mean the places that you and Lowes put out of business? or What do you call this place?
Anyway I got some from Lowes, just wondering how long before they stop selling it.


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## lazersteve (Jun 23, 2007)

jimdoc,

It's just a matter of time before all the retail outlets won't be allowed to sell muriatic. What a shame. 

Steve


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## blueduck (Aug 14, 2007)

What it all amounts to eventually is control in one way or the other by those folks who wish no one make a move unless it is approved by someone else. Being independent is considered wrong or politically incorrect, as free thinking individuals make waves for the status quo..... 

The price of Muriatic has gone up here by 60 cents a gallon in the past year, I payed a whopping $5.29 [tax included] for a gallon a couple days ago.... A year ago a friend was cleaning up some coins and tools with muriatic from the fire that his dad lost his life in.... I did not realize at that time I would embark upon a hobby that would take me deeper into the realm of anti-independent government control..... I guess i gravitate to that sort of area by the fickle finger of fate.....

The problem with the government controlling the purchase is that the smarter folks on the side of terror already either have the products, can get the products from the people who deal in large quantities, or they know how to derive the products they need from other sources, not unlike the folks who on this forum have been posting to refine the precious metals instead of terrorizing the neighbors. The government only hurts the independent processor and the hobbyist who have no intention to harm anyone in any manner..... It is sad that the several states have allowed the federal corporation to impose mass group laws, not to protect the several states, but to keep individuals from going from a hobby to a business with ease, they have also allowed those so called law enforcement agencies to act in the manner of the old KGB of the mid 1950's under the guise of keeping the several states safe from terror all the while terrorizing the inhabitants themselves in small but incisive manners.... while they let the borders overflow with gang members who increasingly commit terror crimes against those who thought they were still safe from harm and it is covered up daily [sorry for the political thread drift to this degree] anyhow I have witnessed the tightening of the different freedoms first hand over the years on public lands thinking that one of these days the people wont take it any more and say enough is enough, however I was wrong, the government just keeps putting up more rules and regulations and the people follow along like good little orderly slaves seeking the crumbs offered.....

I dont want to harm anyone, and I surely dont want to purchase a huge amount of of any one chemical and store it for years [for various reasons] cause it is the only way to ensure having it around. It is a shame that the HazMat fees are tagged onto many shipments that really should not be hazmat at all, and the paperwork is there to prohibit and discourage small hobbyist from experimenting in a laboratory not known by the government to exist..... it makes me feel nearly criminal.

William


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## badastro (Aug 14, 2007)

It's quite odd that people think banning a few chemicals will deter terrorists.

Anyone who really wants chemicals can get them or make them.

Sodium nitrate doesn't even make powerful bombs since the sodium ion has a relatively strong bond to the nitrate ion compared to the other alkali metals.

If you really needed to, you could distill your own HCl. Muriatic acid will always be available since it is used to clean concrete and adjust the pH of swimming pools. It's just too useful.


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## chloric1 (Aug 14, 2007)

@ jim doc- I must sya that you Home Depot experience is astonishing :shock: and sad  but the Home depot 1/4 mile from my house here in Indianapolis actually sells it 2 gallons per box!! It is actually kept outside in the "garden" section. Don't bother looking in the paint isle. That person you spoke to might not have known about it possibly being outside. 
I go to Lowes periodically because they also sell 2lbs of drain opener thats pure sodium hydroxide. I make soap as another hobby. 

@blueduck- I recognize your cognitive thinking. You are smart enough to ascertain that the government is NOT representative of the public but a corporation seeking to grow. In fact most big global corporations are structured very much like the USA government. Why? Because our government is the richest and most powerfull in the world. We are heading towards a global fascist state and events will be planned to ensure its arrival.


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## aflacglobal (Aug 14, 2007)

> old KGB of the mid 1950's



Gestapo

Geheime Staatspolizei (German: “Secret State Police”) 

Tasks and Methods of the GESTAPO. In the basic law of 10 February 1936, the GESTAPO was declared to have "the duty to investigate and to combat in the entire territory of the State, all tendencies dangerous to the State." The decree issued for the execution of said law gave the GESTAPO the authority to make police investigations in treason, espionage, and sabotage cases, and in other cases of criminal attacks on Party and State." (2107-PS, 2108-PS) :idea: :arrow: Patroit act.

"The duties of the political police and the necessary means for their performance are not chosen freely but are prescribed by the foe. Just like the operations of an army against the outward enemy and the means to fight this enemy cannot be prescribed, so the political police also must have a free hand in the choice of the means necessary at times to fight the attempts dangerous to the State." (2232-PS) 

"As long as the 'police' carries out the will of the leadership, it is acting legally." (1852-PS)

The actions and orders of the GESTAPO were not subject to judicial review. The decision of the Prussian High Court of Administration on 2 May 1935 held that the status of the GESTAPO as a special police authority removed its orders from the jurisdiction of the Administrative Tribunals. The court said that under the law of 30 November 1933 the only redress available was by appeal to the next higher authority within the GESTAPO itself. (2347-PS) :arrow: Sounds like the argument G.W. Bush uses.

"Orders in matters of the Secret State Police are not subject to the review of the administrative courts.".(2107-PS) :arrow: Guantanamo Bay

"*** as a Protective measure of the Secret State Police against persons who endangered the security of the people and the State through their attitude, in order to counter all aspirations of enemies of the people and State"; :arrow: Same story again.

Please don't get me started. That national I.D. card. Remember the germans wanting to see your papers. Same thing. :shock: :shock: :shock: 

I'm moving up there with Noxx. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-02/nca-02-15-criminality-06-03.html


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## jimdoc (Aug 14, 2007)

Chloric1,
Maybe it was just that one Home Depot, it is a
new building. I actually worked at their old building
a few years ago and found that somebody hit the
pallet of muriatic acid that they kept outside, it was
a nasty mess. Maybe that is why they don't carry it
anymore, they probably can't hire anybody to drive 
the forklift that doesn't crash into stuff regularly.
Lowes charged almost $7 for one gallon, Home Depot
used to be about that much for 2 gallons. I will have
to check other Home Depots in the area because I hate
wasting what little money I have. Jim


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## hilld2000 (Aug 15, 2007)

I am astonished at the price difference between the US and 'Rip Off' Britain...

I cannot get HCl for less than £10/Gallon...... Thats $20!!!
I cannot freely buy Peroxide at ALL... or Sodium Nitrate

and while I'm on the subject, fuel is now $2/litre  
Gas and electric doubled in 12 months...
Bread doubled....
Cooking oil doubled etc...
100's of tax rises...
And yet infation is supposed to be 1.9%... What a joke!


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## blueduck (Aug 15, 2007)

Yes I complain about the freedoms that are being slowly taken away, and I complain about the high price of things compared to the income that the jobs available pay, but in some ways the folks in the several states of america still have it better than other parts of the world and a whole lot better than other parts of the world hands down..... 

I mean we only pay about 80 cents a liter for fuel here in the states [and the average is probably lower] so shipping costs although lower on the outward appearance are probably similar once a person factors in the distance many products travel for distribution. We no longer have the local infastructure to provide the needed items at as small of cost as we once did 30-70 years ago, with the corporstions wanting more in their pockets they bought up the small firm manufacturing to keep a larger share of the market, then they moved those plants over seas to the lower labor and lesser environmental standard countries [read slave labor and governments who care only for a few dollars pumped into a small number of peoples accounts]... 

I don't think it is a conspiracy here in the several states against anyone in that respect as much as a greed factor and the corporations must survive at the expense of the people. The tightening of control by the power structure is only a response to the corporations wanting to edge out their competition who ight figure a way out if everything was left in the form of a republic, where everyone was responsible for their own actions.... something many world over would like and cant muster the revolutionary force to overthrow the soft chains of "socialism" that bind them.... kept in force by military powers.

A few years ago the big thinkg was getting information from the hardware stores of people who bought gardening materials.... the owners laughed at the time cause that was what they sold to everyone, but the local police wanted the names cause they were getting money for a "war on drugs" and the gardening supplies were what was used for growing greenbuds for smoking..... now it is chemicals, the buzz word is now "domestic terrorism" and anyone who purchases any chemicals and is not for use in a registered business with the state corporation might be planning the next big terror act on local soil..... funds for this watch list are of course provided by DHS [department of homeland security].... our county recieved 5 million dollars for law enforcement, so they bought 5 crew cab pickups and 5 30 foot travel trailers..... all sorts of ammunition has filtered into this area for the law enforcement use against a population of around 20,000 in the largest county in the lower 48 states.... I call it insane.... then we have the local city orficals who when the non-scare of the "birdflu" came about a couple went and spent around $1000.00 for food storage in the event of a shut down so they could feed their family [like they should not already have such a stock on hand, but that is another thread] they keep their meetings secret fro the public because in them they discuss the shutting down of the ingress and egress of the residents of the area, and the funds they get awarded for the equipment they are purchasing and the "extra" officers they are hiring.... if it was not so much like the Gestapo meets the keystone cops in a serious situation it would be funny.... That is not to say we dont have a potential for serious problems here as anywhere else, but the naivety of the elected believing only they should know the plan that the average person should be kept in the dark is reminiscent of other shadow organizations that kept control over their respective populations in recent history, but under the auspices of "the people are not ready to handle the threat" which is wrong.

anyhow half the fun of learning this new hobby [hopefully to turn into a profitable side or full business one day] has been learning the off the shelf products that are under the radar of those who would pull the chemicals off the shelf in the name of "terrorising the population" [yes I believe the government is the terrorist at this time in order to keep taxing the people heavily in the name of security]. It is sort of like building my own "Frankenstein" of sorts.... yet mo' fun.

William
Central Idaho "republik"


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## Never_Evil (Oct 21, 2007)

Wow...I'm looking at all the prices you guys are reporting and I feel like a theif getting some of my stuff for so cheap.

Menards (WI based hardware store): Muratic Acid $2.89 1 gal
WalMart (Health care section): Hydrogen Peroxide $.97 1 qt
Grocery: Distilled water $.69 1 gal
WalMart (plumbing section): Sulfuric Acid $9.99 32oz
Crafts Store: Copper Mesh $12 fine mesh 
Grocery: Baking Soda $.49 small box


These are only examples of prices I've paid recently. I will not guarantee any prices or availability to anyone for any reason. If anyone else has sources for any other materials or similar it would be nice to hear from you.


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## Noxx (Oct 21, 2007)

I wish I could get muriatic for 3$/gal...
I pay around 7$


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## aflacglobal (Oct 21, 2007)

WalMart (plumbing section): Sulfuric Acid $9.99 32oz 

Napa auto parts. I forget how much it is,but it is cheap.


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## Never_Evil (Oct 22, 2007)

I posted up the walmart one because there are some people that arent capable of boiling down sulfuric due to what ever reason (space, equipment, or other).

If anyone is wondering why Menards is ringing a bell and you watch NASCAR, its one of the sponsors of Dale Earnhardt JR.


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## loco (Oct 22, 2007)

autozone: sulfuric acid (auto battery acid) ~ $6

by the way which is better? plumbing drain cleaner or battery acid for sulfuric acid?


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## lazersteve (Oct 22, 2007)

The drain cleaner is contaminated with buffers and such. If you are willing to take the time to boil down the battery acid it is the way to go. The drain cleaner is acceptable for the electrolytic cell if it is concentrated enough (>90%).


Steve


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## dsinjc (Nov 4, 2007)

I see the subject about sulferic acid is this or can it be a replacement for the sodium nitrate in AR ? just curious


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## Noxx (Nov 4, 2007)

Not really. 
You can use sulfuric acid to make nitric acid but using sulfuric for AR is a little bit complicated.


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## Joe (Nov 4, 2007)

Never evil said: Sodium Bisulfite $9.99 64oz at Wal-Mart.

I've seen sodium bisulfate in the pool section sold as a ph increaser. I think Never evil is referencing sodium bisulfate, which will not precipitate gold. I don't know of a use for sodium bisulfate. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## Never_Evil (Nov 7, 2007)

Joe you are absolutely correct on my mistake! When I purchased it, i did misread it as -ite. The crap at walmart is -ate. 

Thank you for the catch on that one.


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## Lou (Nov 7, 2007)

Muriatic at the home depot here is 2.67 for 2 gallons of it. It can be redistilled. Stump remover is about $0.67/lb, and the sulfuric at True Value is about 12 dollars for a gallon, and the buffers make no difference when you use it for making nitric acid.


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