# Gold filled batch, strange white stuff after drop?



## Hartbar (Aug 7, 2022)

Did a GF batch, nitric, rinse, nitric again, rinse, incinerate foils, HCL boil, followed by 3 distilled water boils. AR to dissolve gold. 
Filtered to clear. Dropped with SMB, looked ok, then got this unusual white stuff in beaker?
Any thoughts? Think maybe tin or lead?
Going to do usual powder DW water and HCL rinse I think?
Thank you


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## Hartbar (Aug 7, 2022)

I see some good gold powder in there, stannous test shows no AU in solution.


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## Palladium (Aug 7, 2022)

Let it settle a few hours. Decant.... NOT FILTER! Wash it with water twice and go back to ar. Drop it again, water and hcl washes.
Gold filled is a dirty process and requires at least 2 runs.
All that stuff will be caught in you filter next time.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 7, 2022)

What is powder DW water?


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## Palladium (Aug 7, 2022)

Could be tin.... GF is dirty like that. Could be copper chloride from dilution. Could be to much smb. Could be some type of filler. I've run into GF with plaster before. Sort of like the sand like filler in silver knife handles. The 2nd run will clear it up and what's not water or acid soluble will be trapped in the filter.


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## Hartbar (Aug 7, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> What is powder DW water?


Sorry, when I said powder DW, I meant after drop with SMB i normally let sit, decant, boil 3 times with distilled water, a HCL boil, then 3 more with distilled water. Works quite well most times, thank you all for input


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## BlackLabel (Aug 8, 2022)

I didn’t get it yet…

DW = Drop With?
DW = Distilled Water?


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## Hartbar (Aug 8, 2022)

DW = Distilled water in this process.


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## Hartbar (Aug 13, 2022)

I boiled in distilled water twice, then a HCL boil. The distilled didn’t do much. The HCL cleared up the white stuff well, but I got a lower yield than I was expecting. The HCL turned to a Kelly green, wonder if there’s any gold still not recovered?


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 13, 2022)

Hartbar said:


> I boiled in distilled water twice, then a HCL boil. The distilled didn’t do much. The HCL cleared up the white stuff well, but I got a lower yield than I was expecting. The HCL turned to a Kelly green, wonder if there’s any gold still not recovered?


Stannous then stock pot if barren.


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## Alondro (Aug 13, 2022)

Palladium said:


> Let it settle a few hours. Decant.... NOT FILTER! Wash it with water twice and go back to ar. Drop it again, water and hcl washes.
> Gold filled is a dirty process and requires at least 2 runs.
> All that stuff will be caught in you filter next time.





Hartbar said:


> I boiled in distilled water twice, then a HCL boil. The distilled didn’t do much. The HCL cleared up the white stuff well, but I got a lower yield than I was expecting. The HCL turned to a Kelly green, wonder if there’s any gold still not recovered?


GF stuff can have lots of metals. The foils recovered after dissolving the base metal beneath are not pure gold, after all. They have silver and copper in them. Dissolving with AR finally releases those metals. Could be silver chloride, or could be Cu(I)Cl that stayed in solution until it became too aqueous. Nickel chloride is very soluble in water. 

GF foils, if you have a lot, are best processed with the Sreetips method of alloying with silver to a high silver content, and then dissolving the silver (and copper) with nitric, leaving a mostly gold sponge behind, which is then much easier to process. 

He has a number of videos showing how that's done, and how to calculate the exact mass of silver to alloy.


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## Palladium (Aug 13, 2022)

I've done 1,000's on top of 1,000's of lbs of GF and not once have i ever had to inquart. 
No need to inquart foils. The videos he made were for educational purposes to explain chemistry, but not all chemistry procedures are practical in a production sense.


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## Shark (Aug 13, 2022)

Most videos are for the views which pays money. Very few are actually trying to teach anything other than the very minimum basics.


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Aug 13, 2022)

Inquartation is for karat scrap. Foils are a different process because there aren’t any alloying metals to remove.


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## BlackLabel (Aug 14, 2022)

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> Inquartation is for karat scrap. Foils are a different process because there aren’t any alloying metals to remove.


Foils from fingers are not 24k.
The gold would be too soft for mechanical stress.


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## Eaa (Aug 14, 2022)

are gold precipitated with smb conduct electricity or not,before melting?


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## Hartbar (Aug 14, 2022)

Thank you for that info. I’ve seen a lot of sreetips videos, I haven’t seen where he takes his GF foils and inquarts them, I’ll take a look. I see where he goes back to AR after dropping powder and washing, which is very commmon. I’ve been able to get .99 gold with only one AR refine a few times, not this time! Incinerating is the key I believe, you never really know what’s in your GF, probably every metal known to man it seems


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## Alondro (Aug 14, 2022)

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> Inquartation is for karat scrap. Foils are a different process because there aren’t any alloying metals to remove.


When the original poster used GF, it was for Gold-Filled. Those yield thick foils when the base metals are dissolved, and those foils are rarely anywhere close to pure gold. Usually 10k-14k.


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 14, 2022)

Alondro said:


> When the original poster used GF, it was for Gold-Filled. Those yield thick foils when the base metals are dissolved, and those foils are rarely anywhere close to pure gold. Usually 10k-14k.


That's true enough. The foils are karat gold, but they are still very thin. Even if there is a lot of silver in the alloy, the foils are thin enough that a coating of silver chloride isn't likely to become thick enough to prevent the acid from getting to the gold. I've never inquarted foils from gold filled and never had a problem dissolving them.

Dave


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## Hartbar (Aug 15, 2022)

I don’t think sreetips has a video out where he inquarts his gold filled foils post nitric either, looked didn’t see one.


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## kurtak (Aug 15, 2022)

Palladium said:


> Could be tin.... GF is dirty like that. Could be copper chloride from dilution. Could be to much smb. Could be some type of filler. I've run into GF with plaster before. Sort of like the sand like filler in silver knife handles. The 2nd run will clear it up and what's not water or acid soluble will be trapped in the filter.


Could be any of those things & as well it could be silver chloride &/or combination of any/all those things

Kurt


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Aug 15, 2022)

BlackLabel said:


> Foils from fingers are not 24k.
> The gold would be too soft for mechanical stress.


The gold on fingers and other similar scrap is plated over the copper. The gold used to plate is pure. i.e. 24k. It is not an alloy.


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Aug 16, 2022)

Alondro said:


> When the original poster used GF, it was for Gold-Filled. Those yield thick foils when the base metals are dissolved, and those foils are rarely anywhere close to pure gold. Usually 10k-14k.


Gold filled is, indeed, different from gold foils. The foils that remain after parting the underlying metals, however, is pure gold. It’s not an alloy. Gold filled is a very heavily plated scrap. Plated is never an alloy.


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## Shark (Aug 16, 2022)

Gold filled is an alloy. That is why it is 1/10 12k or 1/20 14k for example. It is not plated but layered together. There used to be a video on YouTube that showed and explained the process very well but I haven’t seen it in a while. The base layer is laid out and an alloy of the needed karat gold is layered on top of the base metal. Then placed onto whatever base is needed to form the intended piece, usually in the form of jewelry. When we process it we use (typically) nitric acid to dissolve the base material out from under the layer of karat gold. This usually leaves the heavy gold foil and some amount of the base metals that tend to migrate into the karat gold. This is why the foils lean to the “dirty” side versus true karat gold. The base metal can vary widely causing more problems in the refining steps than karat gold as well since every piece in a lot can potentially be a different mixture. With the base metal gone it then become a dirty form of karat gold.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 16, 2022)

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> Gold filled is, indeed, different from gold foils. The foils that remain after parting the underlying metals, however, is pure gold. It’s not an alloy. Gold filled is a very heavily plated scrap. Plated is never an alloy.


That is not correct. From Wikipedia: you have a hollow sheath that is filled with another material.
Often jewellers brass but not always. any kind of cheap material will do but gold coloured is preferred as the colour will not shine through if the gold get thin during rolling or other processing.

Shark beat me to it again


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## Shark (Aug 16, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> That is not correct. From Wikipedia: you have a hollow sheath that is filled with another material.
> Often jewellers brass but not always. any kind of cheap material will do but gold coloured is preferred as the colour will not shine through if the gold get thin during rolling or other processing.
> 
> Shark beat me to it again


I don’t mind being checked up on as I may be wrong. It is nice to have competent people watching out for us.

As a side note… when looking at older gold filled chains you can see the color change in the form of a darker colored gold, often looking more copper than gold. This can happen because the small chains are limited by their size. No room or to little room is left to add an adequate barrier layer allowing the base metals to migrate faster and or deeper into the gold. The larger the piece the better the gold color seems to hold up.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 16, 2022)

Shark said:


> I don’t mind being checked up on as I may be wrong. It is nice to have competent people watching out for us.
> 
> As a side note… when looking at older gold filled chains you can see the color change in the form of a darker colored gold, often looking more copper than gold. This can happen because the small chains are limited by their size. No room or to little room is left to add an adequate barrier layer allowing the base metals to migrate faster and or deeper into the gold. The larger the piece the better the gold color seems to hold up.


If you see, my reply was directed at cejohnsonsr1, not you. I just filled in a bit extra since you beat me to the reply


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## Shark (Aug 16, 2022)

I like doing gold filled. It has been my main stay for three years now. Even then, I am still learning and truly enjoy learning and working with it.


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## Hartbar (Aug 16, 2022)

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> Gold filled is, indeed, different from gold foils. The foils that remain after parting the underlying metals, however, is pure gold. It’s not an alloy. Gold filled is a very heavily plated scrap. Plated is never an alloy.


I believe this is factually wrong. The foils left after a couple of nitric leaches on gold filled, are not pure.
I rinse thoroughly and incinerate well, then weigh pre AR. I get less than 50% pure powder weight after completion. That’s because 10k (41%) pure, and 14k (58%) is my source material.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 16, 2022)

Hartbar said:


> I believe this is factually wrong. The foils left after a couple of nitric leaches on gold filled, are not pure.
> I rinse thoroughly and incinerate well, then weigh pre AR. I get less than 50% pure powder weight after completion. That’s because 10k (41%) pure, and 14k (58%) is my source material.


It has been explained by Shark higher up 








Gold filled batch, strange white stuff after drop?


Could be tin.... GF is dirty like that. Could be copper chloride from dilution. Could be to much smb. Could be some type of filler. I've run into GF with plaster before. Sort of like the sand like filler in silver knife handles. The 2nd run will clear it up and what's not water or acid soluble...




goldrefiningforum.com


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Aug 17, 2022)

I stand corrected in the sense that gold filled can indeed be karat gold on the plated sheath. However, from a practical standpoint, the non gold components of the karat gold and the filler metals turn out to be pretty close to what you’d get if you inquarted regular karat scrap. The resulting foils after parting with distilled water and Nitric acid is effectively pure gold around 99 fine (if done properly and pure being used in the relative context). A 2nd refining and precipitation is required to get to 999 fine, as in any other process. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say the 1st time around.


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## Joecast (Aug 18, 2022)

Shark said:


> I like doing gold filled. It has been my main stay for three years now. Even then, I am still learning and truly enjoy learning and working with it.


I am trying to refine gold filled jewelery. Sodium nitrate hydrochloric acid . has worked some what but I am following instructions for electronics scrap. I’m trying to do this with out nitric acid. I have had some success sulfuric acid what is the 12 V battery charger . I am wondering if you or someone can you give me the right direction with the recipe designed for gold filled jewelry. Thanks


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## Shark (Aug 18, 2022)

Joecast said:


> I am trying to refine gold filled jewelery. Sodium nitrate hydrochloric acid . has worked some what but I am following instructions for electronics scrap. I’m trying to do this with out nitric acid. I have had some success sulfuric acid what is the 12 V battery charger . I am wondering if you or someone can you give me the right direction with the recipe designed for gold filled jewelry. Thanks


The crude basics are to place the gold filled in container large enough to have plenty of room. Add nitric and an equal amount of waterto it and heat it watching out that is does not boil over. Do this until the base metals are gone, notice the material will start moving around as they get lighter. Once they stop reacting to fresh nitric. Remove the foils and process them in AR.

If trying to avoid nitric acid you can use hydrochloric acid. Place half gallon of hydrochloric acid in 5 gallon bucket, add half gallon of water. Add gold filled, not more than one pound. Add 1/2 ounce of 3% peroxide. This will take up to a month as is. Adding a fish aquarium air pump will speed it up some, but is still slow. This also will leave more waste acids to clean up.

A little busy right now, will be able to better explain later this evening.


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## Shark (Aug 18, 2022)

How much do you have?


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 18, 2022)

Shark said:


> If trying to avoid nitric acid you can use hydrochloric acid. Place half gallon of nitric acid in 5 gallon bucket, add half gallon of water. Add gold filled, not more than one pound. Add 1/2 ounce of 3% peroxide. This will take up to a month as is. Adding a fish aquarium air pump will speed it up some, but is still slow. This also will leave more waste acids to clean up.


I believe Shark meant a half gallon of hydrochloric acid here.

Dave


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## BlackLabel (Aug 18, 2022)

Yes. For me, it jumped out of the text also.
Maybe it would be better to correct it in Sharks post and leave a notice.


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## Shark (Aug 18, 2022)

Yes, hydrochloric. Thanks Dave.


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## Shark (Aug 19, 2022)

Joecast said:


> I am trying to refine gold filled jewelery. Sodium nitrate hydrochloric acid . has worked some what but I am following instructions for electronics scrap. I’m trying to do this with out nitric acid. I have had some success sulfuric acid what is the 12 V battery charger . I am wondering if you or someone can you give me the right direction with the recipe designed for gold filled jewelry. Thanks


The battery charger is just that. A manual battery charger for a car. It has to be the manual type as the newer electronic/digital will kick off since it will not “see” the proper connection. It is used as a power source for a sulfuric cell, also known as a gold stripping cell. Used mainly for gold plated items, it can work for gold filled just slower which can pose other problems. Over heating the cell can be one of the big problems.

Trying to refine gold without nitric acid is pretty tough to do. If we use a nitrate salt to process gold we are still using nitric acid. In the process the nitrate is converted to nitric. The main difference is the nitrate salts need heat to produce the nitric. Real nitric acid will work at room temperature but starts off a bit slower. It is one of the other trade offs to reach a specific goal.

Using work around methods present opportunities for more problems. This often is the reason they aren’t recommended or discussed much. It is normal when using these methods to take longer, generate more waste, or need more chemicals to achieve near the same results. What they can do is allow some to make a pretty piece of gold from some materials that they may not be able to otherwise.

The method used by the original poster can best be explained in the video he posted from Geo. It is also where I learned to do it from.


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