# why not h2so4 h202



## ericrm (Dec 19, 2011)

i was wondering why everybody talk about hcl h2o2 but not h2so4 h2o2
im actualy trying it and what i have read about it not seem to be true...
there is a pic of what i have done so far

in the blue one is 30%h2so4/3%h2o2 with gold plated pins cu/ni/au with no tin or lead
it has been 2 day i have add 2time h2o2 ,solution is pretty much the same except for the growth of crystal inside and on the copper
in the brown one is 30%h2so4 only with gold plated pins cu/ni/au/sn/pb and bit of circuits boards
i dont see any precipitation or strange goo has other poeple have said...
in the green one is 30%h2so4/3%h2o2 with finger 
it apears to go well but SLOWLY i hadd had 2 time 3% h2o2,the the main difference with hcl/h2o2 is the fact that the finger in the bottom seem to be untouch and i have to move them up to get the finger release...

i would gladly ear from this process,if anyone knows good or bad thing


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## qst42know (Dec 19, 2011)

That is a very dangerous combination you are experimenting with. This reading should only be the start of your safety concerns for this mix. If I understand correctly you are only slightly away from forming explosive compounds, if you haven't already. 

Extreme safety protocols are mandatory. Be sure to read the references at the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_solution


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## Geraldo (Dec 20, 2011)

What makes you think dilute sulfuric with VERY dilute H2O2 is particularly dangerous? Sulfuric is one of the less dangerous acids to begin with (very stable) and the OP is using 3% H2O2, which is almost like no peroxide at all. 

Even with 30% H2O2 in 30% H2SO4, I don't see any dangers beyond the regular dangers from acid and a strong oxidizer (e.g. acid burns skin, strong oxidizer burns skin). Beware of extreme bubbling causing a frothy burst in your face, maybe. Be careful during mixing the peroxide into the acid, since this is a dilution reaction that is exothermic (heat generating).

Of course, like any such chemical scheme, if you don't know about basic acid and strong oxidizer safety protocols, don't do it. Safety glasses, nitrile gloves, emergency shower, fume hood...

Piranha solution is CONCENTRATED sulfuric acid (93%) mixed with 30% H2O2. I have used that too (as a metallurgical etchant). It's chief danger is during mixing - the reaction is strongly exothermic (as is adding water to conc. acid - which is what you are doing when you add 30% H2O2, the other 70% is water...).

I am really perplexed what "explosive" compounds you are suggesting are being formed in mixing 3% H2O2 into 30% H2SO4?


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## etack (Dec 20, 2011)

H2SO4 ($30.00 gal at 98%) is allot more expensive than HCl ($3.50-7.00 gal 31%) 

And less fun to handel :lol: 

Eric


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## qst42know (Dec 20, 2011)

Geraldo said:


> What makes you think dilute sulfuric with VERY dilute H2O2 is particularly dangerous? Sulfuric is one of the less dangerous acids to begin with (very stable) and the OP is using 3% H2O2, which is almost like no peroxide at all.
> 
> Even with 30% H2O2 in 30% H2SO4, I don't see any dangers beyond the regular dangers from acid and a strong oxidizer (e.g. acid burns skin, strong oxidizer burns skin). Beware of extreme bubbling causing a frothy burst in your face, maybe. Be careful during mixing the peroxide into the acid, since this is a dilution reaction that is exothermic (heat generating).
> 
> ...




While I won't pretend to be a trained chemist, many others who read this forum aren't either. 

Did you bother to read the safety protocols in place at major Universities for both use and disposal?

Many members here work with the concentrated to achieve the dilute. And many others seem to believe the notion that if "a little is good, more must be better".

It can melt plastics so several common reaction vessels and waste containers are unsuitable. Even your nitrile gloves may be insufficient to protect you. It can form explosive compounds with common solvents and can react violently with organics. Which may include your cotton clothing or even items found on circuit boards.

It's my opinion for safety reasons this combination should not be promoted on the forum. 

http://www.mse.umd.edu/LAMP/Sop/Piranha_SOP.htm


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## ericrm (Dec 20, 2011)

i know that some poeple here have already tryed it and work with it...
im happy that you bring the danger part up front but i would also get the good side...
i already knows that h2so4 have a hard time disolving gold with "i think" will be nice for removing base metal without worrying
it doesnt apear to generate gaz as hcl do and rust everyting in sight
also i think it can be reuse more than hcl since hcl evaporate easily and if you electrolys it you also loose chlorine with make it rapidly weak...if im correct i can electrolys h2so4 and produce h2o2 witch would revive my solution(read it on a 2007 post )
if im wrong corret me


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## qst42know (Dec 20, 2011)

I wish you good luck in your experiments. Please do work carefully.

I have read many posts of really bad choices over time, and I hope it is helpful to know what not to do as well as what does work.


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## butcher (Dec 21, 2011)

Keep in mind also: what you may not know can very well hurt you when mixing chemicals.
Study hard and keep it safe.


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## Lino1406 (Dec 21, 2011)

HCl + H2O2 is needed to "wound" the gold
by producing chlorine. Then the dissolution
of copper takes the place.
Lino1406
author of "25 recovery procedures"


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## ericrm (Dec 21, 2011)

correct me if im wrong but i dont think that true
no need to hurt the gold to get the copper in pins
also h2so4 to what i see right now do the same as hcl except it work very poorly, im force to keep adding h2o2 or the reaction stop,im tinking that i will try with 30%h2o2 to see if it react longer.


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## Geo (Dec 21, 2011)

sulfuric acid reacts to copper better when it is warm.[CAUTION: be careful with hot sulfuric acid as it reacts to organics in a very aggressive manner, skin and bone is organic.] sulfuric acid will react to copper when hot regardless of H2O2. the more dilute the solution, the stronger the reaction to the copper, thats why we try to keep the sulfuric stripping cell cool and cover it when not in use to keep moisture out.


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## ericrm (Dec 21, 2011)

thank geo that is good to know.
i read that the boiling point of sulfuric acid is over 300deg,
to your knowledge ,right now im doing this in the house,by getting the solution hot will i end up with sulfuric gaz inside?
also getting cuso4 mean that i will have free hydrogene in the house ,those anyone know if the risk of explosion will be a serious treat for about 1 liter of dilute sulfuric?
thanks


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## niteliteone (Dec 21, 2011)

Sounds like you are playing Russian Roulette with a 45 Auto :shock: 

Get that stuff out of your house.



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide
> The action of hot sulfuric acid on copper turnings produces sulfur dioxide.
> Cu + 2 H2SO4 → CuSO4 + SO2 + 2 H2O
> 
> ...


Now when you or anyone else in the house breath these fumes you inhale SO2 it combines with the moisture (H2O) in your lungs creating new sulfuric acid (H2SO4) in your lungs. :shock: 

Tom C.


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## jimdoc (Dec 21, 2011)

ericrm said:


> thank geo that is good to know.
> i read that the boiling point of sulfuric acid is over 300deg,
> to your knowledge ,right now im doing this in the house,by getting the solution hot will i end up with sulfuric gaz inside?
> also getting cuso4 mean that i will have free hydrogene in the house ,those anyone know if the risk of explosion will be a serious treat for about 1 liter of dilute sulfuric?
> thanks



If you need to ask those questions, then you are playing with fire (in your house yet).
Maybe you should find another hobby.

Jim


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## ericrm (Dec 21, 2011)

well i guest its the easy answer ,but you once ask the same question so did YOU find an other hobby?


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## ericrm (Dec 21, 2011)

{Water (steam) is not the only vapor given off by the boiling acid. Along with water, Sulfur Dioxide and Trioxide (SO2 and SO3) gasses also evolve from the boiling liquid. At low acid concentrations, water is the predominant vapor given off by the boiling acid; significantly more water vapor evolves from the boiling liquid than SOx gasses,}
so let gets me a bit more educated
will so2 and so3 will also be produce if i dont BOIL the acide but just keep it hot?or did a soon i get vapor it means to have also so2 and so3?


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## slickdogg (Dec 21, 2011)

ericrm said:


> right now im doing this in the house,by getting the solution hot will i end up with sulfuric gaz inside?



In the house? 
Is anyone else in the house with you kids, wife, pets?


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## ericrm (Dec 21, 2011)

maybe i should correct something ,my work place is in the shed outside,but for the sulfuric experiment i was force to move in the house because the shed isnt heated(cold an acid dont work very well...)


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## qst42know (Dec 21, 2011)

No you are not forced to work in the house.

Buy a second hand electric skillet and take this back outside where it belongs.


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## Photobacterium (Dec 21, 2011)

qst42know said:


> It can melt plastics so several common reaction vessels and waste containers are unsuitable. Even your nitrile gloves may be insufficient to protect you. It can form explosive compounds with common solvents and can react violently with organics. Which may include your cotton clothing or even items found on circuit boards.



the one i wonder about is Nitre (potassium nitrate) and filter paper.

basically the definition for ... Guncotton. which comes in handy on the fourth of July !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose

"Nitrocellulose (also: cellulose nitrate, flash paper) is a highly flammable compound formed by nitrating cellulose through exposure to nitric acid or another powerful nitrating agent."

I have been trying to come up with a filing system for filtered compounds. So I have put copper-rich mixes in their filter in a manila folder. so far i only have about five folders.

i am realizing that my filing system *may not be so great* on account of the fact that it could EXPLODE :shock: 

Perhaps this is why people use glass jars ?


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## ericrm (Dec 21, 2011)

wow this is realy something
if i understand you right ,you mean that filtering nitric acid with ,let says 3 filter paper just to be sure that nothing pass tru,we put those filter on the side(maybe in a ball form because we have sqeeze them to get the last drop),forget theyr are there ,they dry because it is what paper do when left alone... we got a litle heat or just a static spart over it and woush we start a fire
did i understand you right???


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## jimdoc (Dec 21, 2011)

ericrm said:


> well i guest its the easy answer ,but you once ask the same question so did YOU find an other hobby?



If I asked any questions like that when I first got here to this forum, it would be very different than someone asking it now. The search button or a quick read through some posts now you can find safety advice very easily now. When I joined it was about 2 weeks after the forum was created, and many of the moderators were not even here yet. I may have been a pioneer in the stupid question field, but somebody had to get it started. I also didn't start any processing for a long time of reading and watching Steve's videos.

I was just saying that if you are asking questions like that, you should be asking them before you do it, especially in your house. This is about you and your family's safety. That should be your first concern. I know it is the concern of the forum, and the moderators.

Jim


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## ericrm (Dec 21, 2011)

jim i know your right ,im not even arguing with you for real...
have you read about photo bacterium last post,about the nitro cellulose thing,is he right?


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## butcher (Dec 22, 2011)

There are many dangers involved in what we do, mixing metals and acids, many of the fumes are deadly.

A gas can come off of a solution even if you do not boil.
A gas can evaporate and come into the air with very little heat (even in room temperature water and other acidic gases evaporate into the air.
Do not work in the house you will poison your house and possibly you and your family.
Many explosive mixtures are made with acids and metals or organic materials.
Do not play games with something you do not know about, chemistry is no game, it can be very dangerous, study hard, do not experiment trying to make a new wheel (that wheel may just run over you and kill you).

Nitrating of organics would need concentrated solutions; this is not to say that with some types of very fine metal powders that filtering more dilute solutions could also contain a dangerous situation in the dry paper.

Follow proven procedures (they have been proven for a reason), you are only going to hurt yourself or someone else by experimenting with things you do not know about, if you want to learn more take a few years of college chemistry and learn what dangers your putting yourself in by playing chemist without having the knowledge of danger or what you are doing, then you may be educated enough to know why it is best to follow the proven procedures, and how futile it is to try and reinvent the wheel (as Harold say’s it is already round).

We do not want to hear that you or your family are in the hospital or the grave because you wanted to try something new thinking you may be able to improve a process you know little about.

Think about it much of the chemistry we use has been developed over the centuries by very knowledgeable chemist, do you still feel you’re smarter than them and can reinvent the wheel they made? You are much better off learning the things they knew, and learning the processes they developed over the centuries.


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## Geo (Dec 22, 2011)

ericrm,

it is a definite fact that what i told you is true but please, as a personal favor, stop what you are doing and move your experiment back outside.it is a definite fact also that if you insist on doing something like this that everyone is warning you is so dangerous, you will find yourself alone in your quest because no one will help you harm your self or others. its a simple thing to to get from the thrift store something to heat your solution and do it outside, theres no real need to stay with it in the cold just monitor it closely, keep a check on it.


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## philddreamer (Dec 22, 2011)

My friend Arthur, (the person that gave my his shor kit), continued using AP & other chemicals I didn't follow the safety procedures... well he called me yesterday & told me he's coughing blood & asked me if I had an idea of what could be wrong. My answer, "I'm afraid it cought up with you". He understood very well what I ment; his reply; " Oh s**t!"

Eric, listen to the voice of experience!

Take care & be safe!

Phil


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## Dr. Poe (Dec 30, 2011)

:shock: Man, go to a swift second hand store and buy a crock pot for a dollar or two. Wrap insulation around it and keep it away from family, children, pets and other animals. In other words: Keep your obsession under lock and key outside of your home.
If Child Services knew of your indoor laboratory, they would take any minors from the home. You can count on nosy neighbors to 'drop a dime' (old fashioned way to say snitch) on you. If you are going to mix sulfuric with peroxide, add peroxide to the scrap first, then pour in the sulfuric. I'm not saying that I approve of this method, but I'm not disapproving either. I only disapprove of the location of your lab. Dr. Poe


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## ericrm (Jan 3, 2012)

ok 
after a lot of thinking that i have done recently,i have come to the conclusion thati will need your opinion and help

i have realysed that i cannot do the refining inside because of the risk.
now i wanna work i a good environement
here what i have at my disposition right now
a shed,witch is not heated and not isolated
i have acces to 110v current but only 15 amp total
i can heat the place with a wood stove(fire) but only while im working in.
i have enuf place to build a decent fume hood

does my chemical are in danger if they freeze ?(h2o2,hcl,n2so4,cucl,aucl,hno3,etc ,etc)
will i be able to work in a place like that? the shed will be freezing cold half a week than heated with FIRE(but only during day time and while im in it)
im a bit scared of hydrogene and fire going boom...
anyway im waiting for your opinion
thank you

sorry for the bad english


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## Anonymous (Jan 3, 2012)

ericrm:
Please use correct spelling and puncuation in your posts.IE:commas,periods,apostrophies.And if you have a difficult time with spelling,I believe one of our mods stated that you can you "SpellCheck" on any computer.No offense,but it is extremely difficult to understand a series of sentences that are all run together,with an overabundance of misspelled words.We can help you faster,and with more accuracy if we fully understand what you are trying to convey.


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## Geo (Jan 3, 2012)

if you build the fume hood first, i dont think a build up of gas will be a problem. im sure alot of people that refine in sheds and shops heat with wood or coal as it is the most cost effective energy source.you may be able to supplement your electrical needs with a heavy duty rated power cord from your house if need be, take it up when you finish working for the day.you may need to vent air from the outside to your fume hood to counteract the draw from the heater.


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## ericrm (Jan 3, 2012)

if i was to turn off the fume hood with ap in it,do you think that the h2 release in the night accumulate enuf to cause danger in the morning?
also you didnt talk about the freezing temperature on the chemical,does that mean it would not alter the chemical?


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## Geo (Jan 3, 2012)

if you set up the AP in a 5 gallon bucket, put a lid on the bucket.drill a 1/4 inch hole in the lid and fasten a piece of tubing into the lid with a good epoxy (i use JB-Quik) and vent out of the shed. also add another tube that extends to the bottom of the bucket and add a bubble stone, not only to add oxygen but also to keep the mixture agitated. the freezing point of hcl acid is well below that of water and a moving liquid seldom freezes.freezing temps will slow the reaction but not stop it and the presence of free oxygen insures the reaction will continue even in freezing temps.


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## Anonymous (Jan 3, 2012)

Ericrm,
Geo is talking about a setup similar to the 2nd picture here
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=9722&hilit=contest&start=40#p96640
And I took notice that your spelling and punctuation is much better.Thank you very much,it does help us,so that we may help you better.


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## Photobacterium (Jan 4, 2012)

ericrm said:


> jim i know your right ,im not even arguing with you for real...
> have you read about photo bacterium last post,about the nitro cellulose thing,is he right?



no need to take my word for it.

i suggest doing a web search for your materials & processes, in addition to using forums like goldrefiningforum.

if this was a "Walmart" type store, the 'gold refining' department would be one aisle over from the "explosives" section.

and at the ends of the aisles they would both have Gnarly pictures of people injured or killed by bad procedure. in real life people get hurt because of malice and/or carelessness. when working with industrial-strength chemicals without a strong chemistry background, things happen because 'i just didn't know' - for example me and my "file cabinet" full of something very similar to gun-cotton.

i guess one of New Year's resolutions is to dig into my jar collection, re-wet those filters, and create a NEW filing system ! 8)


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