# Refining for your local jewelers



## IdahoMole (Dec 23, 2016)

In 2017 I would like to expand my refining customer base from 0 to 1 or 2 (I am self employed and want to transition from my current occupation into refining over the next few years.) Toll refining only. I am not interested in buying any metal. I can do gold and silver, probably stone removal, not really interested in PGM's.
My thought is to make contact with the local jewelers and see if they can be convinced to make a change from their current refiner to my service. My problem is that I know almost nothing about the jewelry trade. I have been working on a refining schedule and I believe I can add a point or two to their bottom line but beyond that what do they want or need? ie 24k casting grain or pre alloyed? Plus many other questions. One probably leading to another. 
If you have worked with the jewelry community I would be interested in talking with you either in the open forum, via PM, or over the phone. What ever y'all are comfortable with.

Thanks for your time.


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## upcyclist (Dec 23, 2016)

One thing that might help: Point out to them that they usually pay a premium over spot for their casting gold. When you toll refine and return their gold, you might offer the same rate (85% of spot or so) that their usual refiner offers, but they no longer have to pay that premium over spot to buy the next run!

If they karat their own gold, they'd save money right there. If they buy pre-made casting shot, you can alloy their returns for them into the alloy of their choice (most common being 14K yellow here in the states) as an extra service (and with an extra charge). You can purchase Master Alloys (the additives for a given alloy of gold, kinda like pre-made cocktail mixes lol) at jewelry supply places like Stuller, Rio Grande, etc. You'll need a tax ID for a Stuller account, but not for Rio.

Oh, and this of course only works if they do in-house casting. 

--Eric


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 23, 2016)

upcyclist said:


> Oh, and this of course only works if they do in-house casting.


Yep, and there are fewer of those shops around these days. Most stores now just buy from large manufacturers and resell. They may do some repairs and size rings, but they don't do their own casting, so many have no need of casting grain.  

Dave


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## upcyclist (Dec 23, 2016)

Yes, sadly. I need to find those few mom-and-pop stores that do their own smithing and casting for both my gemcutting and any refining work, and they're few and far between. 

For some reason, Zales & Kay aren't interested in my one-off danburite, lol


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## nickvc (Dec 23, 2016)

Some shops may buy castings from a supplier if so they may be able to run a metal account using fine gold which keeps down the cost, some bullion dealers offer the same deal for findings and fabricated metal, I used to use this method to buy wedding rings and it was the cheapest way.


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## IdahoMole (Dec 23, 2016)

Thank you for the replies thus far. Keep them coming.  

I have been looking at various refiners on the web and they are all over the place as far as pricing and minimum lot size etc. One place needs lots of over 8ozt to meet the minimum refining fee. One place charges spot +10% for casting grain but will give you a break (2 or 3%?) if you want your metal returned that way. Another will return metal as casting grain for no additional charge but adds a premium of you want it back as bars.

I am willing to do Au lots as small as 1ozt pure and return the pure metal any way they want it for no additional charge. Returning alloy would add a premium but also means I have to learn how to do it.

I would like to cater to their needs, just not sure what those needs are. I don't want to look like an idiot when I start talking to them. :lol:


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 23, 2016)

IdahoMole said:


> Returning alloy would add a premium but also means I have to learn how to do it.


Unless you know what you're doing, and have the proper equipment, I would be wary of venturing into this. Every time alloys are melted, some of the base metals are going to oxidize. If you melt them to form the alloy, some oxidize. When the jeweler melts them to cast, more oxidize. If there is too much oxidation, it can result in porosity in the casting. This is why most jewelers are wise enough not to try to just remelt alloys and recast them. It can be done, and some get away with it, but eventually it will bite them in the butt and they'll not try it again. If you're the one providing the alloy, and they waste their time creating the castings and end up with trash, they won't be using you again.



> I would like to cater to their needs, just not sure what those needs are. I don't want to look like an idiot when I start talking to them. :lol:


Start by talking to some that you won't be broken hearted about if you do. You'll learn what your market wants as you go. When you learn a little more, you'll be better prepared to approach the ones you really want to work with.

Dave


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## nickvc (Dec 23, 2016)

You may need to talk to a bullion dealer or supply house about trading in scrap or refined gold for product, the needs of a small jeweller cost money to supply but if you can supply their products to the small jewellers they may give you a discount so you can make a profit, by using a metal account you save them the financing charge and reduce the need for staff to supply the small jewellers, this has been done many times before but you need the finances to start the metal account or the metal. The name of the game is negotiation, you get a discount on the product and then supply on with your profit, for those wanting one wedding ring or a panel of solder selling their karat scrap wil, not suit either party but if you can fill that gap you are in business.


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## anachronism (Dec 24, 2016)

IdahoMole said:


> In 2017 I would like to expand my refining customer base from 0 to 1 or 2 (I am self employed and want to transition from my current occupation into refining over the next few years.) Toll refining only.* I am not interested in buying any metal.* I can do gold and silver, probably stone removal, not really interested in PGM's.
> 
> If I may be blunt (as per usual) you need to reconsider your approach to buying metal or material. I do a lot of toll refining and I use the proceeds from this to buy material. If you pop along to one of your suppliers and offer them cash for product the price drops accordingly and _therefore your margin increases._ I understand that initially the cash may or may not be an issue however do not be afraid to reinvest your profits. If you take Tndavid as a benchmark, he is constantly investing and reinvesting. Look what he has achieved in a few short months.
> 
> ...


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## IdahoMole (Dec 24, 2016)

> FrugalRefiner wrote,
> I would be wary of venturing into this.


I am.



> anachronism wrote,
> If I may be blunt


Of course. Blunt does not preclude politeness and I took your words in the spirit they were offered.

A little more about my situation. After developing an interest in refining earlier in the year I took a button I produced into the bullion store I purchase my silver from. After a few conversations he looks at me and says "I should have you refine my metal.", "seriously?" I say, and we struck a deal. He understood I still have things to learn and was and never applied undue pressure. Things were great. Well he is also a military reservist and he got orders for deployment. The store is closed.
Not only will I miss my friend but I need a new source of material to process. I have produced some excellent Au and Ag and had a few setbacks along the way. Looking for new customers is not the best route, reputation is everything, don't want to trash that and it is a very real risk. I don't have a big bank roll to buy scrap with. I am brainstorming. I'll keep thinking, there is no rush. Slow and steady wins the race right? 

Thanks again. I do appreciate this great community.


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## anachronism (Dec 24, 2016)

Always a pleasure Idaho.

Jon


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## nickvc (Dec 24, 2016)

If as you say your friend has had to shut his shop perhaps advertise to buy scrap, ask your friend what he paid and pay the same and you should get material in, you may need to ship as live scrap if your funds are limited to keep your cash flow going to start but you should slowly build up some capital so you can refine the material you buy and get a better deal when you sell on.
Trying to break into a new market is hard especially if you have no business premises or capital and the people you are approaching do not know you or of you, perhaps a new stream of material that can be purchased cheaper such as e scrap could generate some income and a stream of material to process,there will be something you just need to find it.


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## kcsilversmith (Aug 25, 2017)

I know its an older thread but great ideas but your numbers are way off as far as our cost go for things such as shot of cast karat gold. I started an estate Jewelry, Silversmith shop just south of kansas city 8 years ago. The most ive ever paid for any 999 gold shot, casting pellets etc was 30 over spot and that was when gold was closer to 2000. And never a dollar over spot on silver. Plus everyone in the business uses a refinery that pays98% of spot price for their karat gold so long as its at least 10% gold in and out in less than 30 mins. I started in the same position with only 40 dollars and only bought sterling silver scrap. In a search for better margins (10% was good but it meant i was only making 4-5 bucks at a time) I stumble across a massive source of free copper at my local recycling center and it hits me small business are as efficient as can be thats how they survive meanwhile huge corporations was stuff all the time and my first haul was 1100 dollars worth of copper and aluminum in the for of pots and pans this led to a contract with Toshiba they actually pay me to haul of all their copier rentals.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 25, 2017)

kcsilversmith said:


> I know its an older thread but great ideas but your numbers are way off as far as our cost go for things such as shot of cast karat gold. I started an estate Jewelry, Silversmith shop just south of kansas city 8 years ago. The most ive ever paid for any 999 gold shot, casting pellets etc was 30 over spot and that was when gold was closer to 2000. And never a dollar over spot on silver. Plus everyone in the business uses a refinery that pays98% of spot price for their karat gold so long as its at least 10% gold in and out in less than 30 mins. I started in the same position with only 40 dollars and only bought sterling silver scrap. In a search for better margins (10% was good but it meant i was only making 4-5 bucks at a time) I stumble across a massive source of free copper at my local recycling center and it hits me small business are as efficient as can be thats how they survive meanwhile huge corporations was stuff all the time and my first haul was 1100 dollars worth of copper and aluminum in the for of pots and pans this led to a contract with Toshiba they actually pay me to haul of all their copier rentals.



30%, wow.. Thats terrible.

I would, and do, do it for far less..
PM me if you are interested. 
I can return your gold in shot, bar or button form. Silver comes as fine crystals straight out of the silver cell.

To the mods, do I need to make my posts in the businesses section now? :?:


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## g_axelsson (Aug 26, 2017)

Topher, you don't need to do all your posts in the business section. Only if you advertise a commercial service. You can still answer posts like this any day.

By the way, I think he was talking about $30 above spot, not 30%. It's quite a difference. :wink: 

Göran


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 26, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Topher, you don't need to do all your posts in the business section. Only if you advertise a commercial service. You can still answer posts like this any day.
> 
> By the way, I think he was talking about $30 above spot, not 30%. It's quite a difference. :wink:
> 
> Göran



A massive one!
Thanks for the clarity G, I guess my mind wanted it to be an opportunity so bad that it misread!


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## kcsilversmith (Aug 26, 2017)

30% lol no mean $30 over spot price on gold per ozt less than a dollar per oz on silver. thats a little over 2% on gold per ozt and 3% on sliver per 10ozt. Also the only charge 2% for refining gold 10% on silver and platinum this is how we are able to pay at least 90% for scrap karat that leaves us a 8% margin and we go up to 95% for example we received a 3.72 ozt muffin yesterday it assayed at .9992 we paid 95% ($4557.83) and for our $4557.83 invest received gross profit of $143.93 ($4701.76 - $4557.83). To go from hobbyist to business you are going to want to avoid the refining aspect in most cases. Like we process on average 5kg of gold filled on a weekly basis and rarely refine it to .999 because weather it 99% gold or 10% gold we are paid the same. An exception would be if an order was large enough for us to harvest platinum metals. Have you had any luck visiting your local jewelry shops? The cant see it working as a business since there isn't really a void in this area I can however see it working if you were to sell the finalized product on a place like etsy or if you have a business license I can give you contact information for a refinery but they are really only interested in gold filled refining.


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## IdahoMole (Aug 27, 2017)

RioGrand is charging a little over 10% of spot for 1ozt of 24k casting grain and that seems to be average. I don't doubt that you may be getting yours for 2% over but I have not found any advertised at that price.
You mention that your refiner pays 98%. Are there any other fees associated with that? What kind of volume do you bring them? If you are in and out in 30 minutes you must have a refiner right around the corner. Not everyone has that luxury. 
I have not met with any jewelers yet. Between the day job, some minor health issues, lab maintenance and repair, and a few refining jobs I've done there has been little time for other things.


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## Palladium (Aug 27, 2017)

I would like to hear more about the gold filled aspect.


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## 4metals (Aug 27, 2017)

A lot of refiners who ship their karat scrap out melt gold filled into smaller (50-100 oz) bars and assay the melt before pouring individual bars. Then they do the math to keep the gold content above the minimum and enjoy karat gold rates for gold filled scrap.


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## kcsilversmith (Sep 4, 2017)

Sorry it took so long to reply the end of the months around here is crazy. So depending on how far u live from a refinery and your skill level I can make some introductions. The group we use has long cations in about every major city allthough due to recent events they no longer operate in the state of Florida. We got ours by asking like hey if you ever get behind we can help. That's when we found out they don't refine anything there it all goes to one place via UPS and that they don't get commission, customers don't want to wait 3 weeks and this is no secret to anyone who has been at it for awhile but it's not like they process ur 500g batch by itself it's melted assayed and but into groups i.e. 2.5% all goes in one 3% in another as long as they hit their numbers they pay everyone on the batch average so mine may be 2.6% the others 2.1% nobody ever complains because it's to hard to calculate. So for 2 years we have been doing it with much higher results we keep 25% of the gold and everything that isn't gold  Even as one of the world's largest refineries due to all the red tape of storing processing and disposing of chemicals and wastes it actually makes it more profitable to source it out. We don't have to anymore but you must be able to hit .9999 otherwise they would have to process it still since to bring to market it needs to be at least .999. Ours has to be above 10 but below 25% so they can avoid the quartering process however this is not possible with out exspensice xrf equipment. The down side is this probably out of reach for somebody who doesnt have access to large amounts of scrap since proving yourself will likely take turn ins of 2+ ounces 4-5 times before a refiner would be willing to give you a chance. Back to your Silver idea the need is very limited most small jewelry companies don't do much custom work with gold or silver, maybe someone else has had better luck. We do recycle and return for a bead store that's about 10 ozs a year and for a few artist silversmiths we met through the guild the younger crowd is much more likely to pay a little more to get their product locally because buying local is all the rage these days. Let me know and if those aren't viable I'll be happy to share other ways that we have done and still do today.


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## Palladium (Sep 4, 2017)

So your saying you keep 25% of the gold as a fee?


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## 4metals (Sep 5, 2017)

I've been dealing with settlements from refiners for 40 years and I have no clue what his post meant.


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## Palladium (Sep 5, 2017)

4metals said:


> I've been dealing with settlements from refiners for 40 years and I have no clue what his post meant.



He's below the Mason Dixon line !  

You Yankees can't speak the dialect! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I think i understood it.


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## 4metals (Sep 5, 2017)

So Ralph, using my very best Brooklyn, splain please!


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## kcsilversmith (Sep 9, 2017)

Sorry for the rambling after sobering up I even had to read it twice to figure out my point. So when gold filled comes to the refinery it is usually with karat gold most jewelers just mix them as long as assay is about 10% it pays 98% of spot. However a few times a week customers bring in large lots 1000g or more and it's takes a lot of 14k to keep that above 10% so they would send it off back to the actual refinery it would take weeks and like I tried to explain there is 0 quality control you get what you get. They charge 25% of gold recovered and that's it. They keep everything else silver, platinum metals. Heck I didnt know until 8 years ago and even when I did it's not like I was gonna ship it out wait have it sent back because it took me a year to accumulate the 1000g min order then spend shipping etc. like everyone else I became addicted to the new "fast food type refinery" drive there 30 mins later cash or even Bullion instant gratification. That all changed when I found 2 dozen of the gold filled holy grail 1/5 9ct cuff bracelets took one in to have assayed the refiner said something must be wrong with the xrf because it thinks that gf was 7.2% gold but almost 20% platinum and 55% silver I found laser Steve video watched it half a time watched some kids on you tube and declared myself the next Alfred Nobel. Thank god I at least did it outside and only wasted 250g 10 hot plates, and every coffee pot in the state of Missouri. Gave it up with my best only being 98.5% until about 2 years ago.when the refiner was like I melted this thinking it was karat gold and they guy who does is out of town it pays 25% I came back with .9999 and was like yeah platinum is way above my skill level but there was 22 ounces silver he said we only take the gold. Every since I've been doing over 1000 grams for them a week and learned the importance of incinerator while melted is not ideal took me hours so pick out all the stones lol. There are over 30 of these franchises I know 8 other people who do the same the guys in Atlanta are doing over a metric ton a month using the same stainless stills once filled with rye. Sure you fancy yanks can read and have labs us southern boys will stick with grandmas Corning ware and plastic milkjugs. The only real differences down here are nobody has ever heard of Holk and can't read anyways and you can always spot a carpetbagger because no southern waste copper to cement silver. We never touch escrap you can have all the pcb's u want just google Bendix plant In Kansas City everyone has a family member that is dying from that so Holk is good for a hobby but there is another thing that came out of that Bendix plant 85% of non nuclear components for the entire us nuclear missle deffance system, another 80% of radios for WWII aircraft, Nasa contracts, the talos missile, high energy laser ignition systems, hybrid microcircuits, rocket and satalite guidance chips, land mine detectors for the airforce, ufos for E.T. Thats 1000s of tons of pms refined in house by crazy hillbillies. If ur lucky enough to get one of these men to talk the education is priceless.


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## Palladium (Sep 9, 2017)

I do gold filled for 10-15% based on weight. Anything below 5 lbs is 15% anything above 5 lbs is 10%.
I see you reading 4metals! :mrgreen:


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## 4metals (Sep 10, 2017)

So 15% of a 3.5% yield material if you process 5 pounds is about $500. Not bad for the work required. Trouble is so much trash costume jewelery that isn't GF gets mixed in. That eats into your profits. 

Still cheaper to mix it into karat lots shipping to a big refiner. Of course that should include sampling and fire assay. Not XRF.


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## Smack (Sep 10, 2017)

kcsilversmith said:


> Sorry for the rambling after sobering up I even had to read it twice to figure out my point. So when gold filled comes to the refinery it is usually with karat gold most jewelers just mix them as long as assay is about 10% it pays 98% of spot. However a few times a week customers bring in large lots 1000g or more and it's takes a lot of 14k to keep that above 10% so they would send it off back to the actual refinery it would take weeks and like I tried to explain there is 0 quality control you get what you get. They charge 25% of gold recovered and that's it. They keep everything else silver, platinum metals. Heck I didnt know until 8 years ago and even when I did it's not like I was gonna ship it out wait have it sent back because it took me a year to accumulate the 1000g min order then spend shipping etc. like everyone else I became addicted to the new "fast food type refinery" drive there 30 mins later cash or even Bullion instant gratification. That all changed when I found 2 dozen of the gold filled holy grail 1/5 9ct cuff bracelets took one in to have assayed the refiner said something must be wrong with the xrf because it thinks that gf was 7.2% gold but almost 20% platinum and 55% silver I found laser Steve video watched it half a time watched some kids on you tube and declared myself the next Alfred Nobel. Thank god I at least did it outside and only wasted 250g 10 hot plates, and every coffee pot in the state of Missouri. Gave it up with my best only being 98.5% until about 2 years ago.when the refiner was like I melted this thinking it was karat gold and they guy who does is out of town it pays 25% I came back with .9999 and was like yeah platinum is way above my skill level but there was 22 ounces silver he said we only take the gold. Every since I've been doing over 1000 grams for them a week and learned the importance of incinerator while melted is not ideal took me hours so pick out all the stones lol. There are over 30 of these franchises I know 8 other people who do the same the guys in Atlanta are doing over a metric ton a month using the same stainless stills once filled with rye. Sure you fancy yanks can read and have labs us southern boys will stick with grandmas Corning ware and plastic milkjugs. The only real differences down here are nobody has ever heard of Holk and can't read anyways and you can always spot a carpetbagger because no southern waste copper to cement silver. We never touch escrap you can have all the pcb's u want just google Bendix plant In Kansas City everyone has a family member that is dying from that so Holk is good for a hobby but there is another thing that came out of that Bendix plant 85% of non nuclear components for the entire us nuclear missle deffance system, another 80% of radios for WWII aircraft, Nasa contracts, the talos missile, high energy laser ignition systems, hybrid microcircuits, rocket and satalite guidance chips, land mine detectors for the airforce, ufos for E.T. Thats 1000s of tons of pms refined in house by crazy hillbillies. If ur lucky enough to get one of these men to talk the education is priceless.



Now that right there'd make a fellers i's tired.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Sep 10, 2017)

kcsilversmith said:


> ufos for E.T. Thats 1000s of tons of pms refined in house by crazy hillbillies.



I would be interested in hearing more about E.T and his ships scrap


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## rickbb (Sep 11, 2017)

Hey KC, remember way back in high school in English lit class and the teacher talked about using paragraphs and such? 

Please try, so dyslectics' and short attention span people like me can try to understand what your' talking about. I almost had a seizure trying to read your posts.


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## snoman701 (Sep 11, 2017)

Smack said:


> kcsilversmith said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for the rambling after sobering up I even had to read it twice to figure out my point.
> ...



After reading that, I sort of miss my Chinese professor of modern physics. I understood more of what he was saying, and he spoke very little English.

It's not the eyes that hurt, it's the brain.


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