# Fake gold bullion?



## turtlesteve (May 3, 2011)

Forum members,

I have read several threads discussing fake or filled bullion bars (silver and gold), and obviously there have been some confirmed instances of this. However, my question is, can anyone point to confirmed instances of "high quality" counterfeits of lower denominations (i.e. bullion coins or ~1 oz bars)? By high quality, I mean coins that were of the correct dimensions and weight, but were actually gold clad or gold plate over tungsten (or similar).

I'm trying to gauge how much of a threat such fakes pose. My guess is, even if they are not a problem now, they will be in the future as the price of gold continues to rise, and technology becomes more accessible.

Thanks,
Steve


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## 4metals (May 4, 2011)

You are correct in assuming it will come to that but without drilling or deeply filing the coin or bar it is almost impossible to tell.

I know buyers today who tell their customers what the piece is worth if it is real, and if it is real after testing they will buy it. Then they tell them they will drill a few holes through the piece and if it is real they buy it. If it is fake, well they trashed a fake. Most sellers accept the deal. 

Next time I see him, I'll ask him how many fakes he's come across.


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## eeTHr (May 4, 2011)

I have a Dos Pesos coin that is the correct size and weight.

It was from an estate, which was known to have had jewelry, like charm bracelets and earrings, with coins like these in bezels, dangling. But this one was unmounted.

A testing pen got varying readings, and a small drop of 22K acid revealed a grey-copper colored metal under the gold plating.

The jewelry which this coin is presumed to have come from was around 60 years old, so I'm thinking the fakes were produced only for the jewelry, as they might come under less scruteny in that form, and possibly were sold to tourists back then. In other words, not recent work.


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## goldsilverpro (May 4, 2011)

A buyer I know that buys pure gold won't accept bars. He wants everything shotted so he can see exactly what he is getting. With all the crap out there, this makes a lot of sense to me.


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## Militoy (May 4, 2011)

A bar or coin made from plated tungsten might have the look of gold, and a specific gravity close enough to defy detection that way. A coin made from tungsten will even have a nice "ring" when dropped - though in a somewhat higher pitch than gold. A tungsten bar or round would easily be distinguishable from gold though. Gold is diamagnetic - it actually produces a slight repulsive effect when induced with a strong magnetic field. Tungsten is paramagnetic - put simply, it is weakly attracted to a magnet. The mass susceptibility (measure of magnetic influence) of gold is -28. Tungsten has a MS of +59. A powerful rare-earth magnet will stick very obviously to a piece of tungsten. I would not buy a "gold" object that displayed that same property.


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## turtlesteve (May 4, 2011)

Militoy,

I am aware of this difference, but I'm also quite sure that (pure) tungsten will not visibly stick to a rare earth magnet.

I'm just trying to find out if these fakes are really out there in lower denominations.

Steve


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## Palladium (Oct 31, 2017)

and the plot thickens......

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801


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## Topher_osAUrus (Oct 31, 2017)

Palladium said:


> and the plot thickens......
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801



Yeah, there was a youtube video I watched where a guy had bought dozens of sealed bars and coins that were "gold", only to find out almost all were fake... They looked legit, so it never came to question. I will try to find that link. It was heartbreaking


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## etack (Oct 31, 2017)

had me worried had to go look and make sure all mine were not RCM.

Eric


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## Topher_osAUrus (Oct 31, 2017)

etack said:


> had me worried had to go look and make sure all mine were not RCM.
> 
> Eric



I havent had luck finding it yet, and wont have time for a minute because of trick or treating, but I do remember that it was a myriad of companies. Sunshine, JM, RCM, and a couple other big names. On the Sunshine mint ones, the hologram was even spoofed..


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## snoman701 (Oct 31, 2017)

Militoy said:


> A bar or coin made from plated tungsten might have the look of gold, and a specific gravity close enough to defy detection that way. A coin made from tungsten will even have a nice "ring" when dropped - though in a somewhat higher pitch than gold. A tungsten bar or round would easily be distinguishable from gold though. Gold is diamagnetic - it actually produces a slight repulsive effect when induced with a strong magnetic field. Tungsten is paramagnetic - put simply, it is weakly attracted to a magnet. The mass susceptibility (measure of magnetic influence) of gold is -28. Tungsten has a MS of +59. A powerful rare-earth magnet will stick very obviously to a piece of tungsten. I would not buy a "gold" object that displayed that same property.



Passing the alloy through a magentic field will produce a known effect.

If you youtube "magnetic penny sorter" you can see the use of eddy currents to differentiate between copper/bronze and copper/zinc. Same thing will happen in gold vs plated/filled. You just have to know what pure looks like when passing through the magnetic field. 

Tungsten is very very weekly attracted to magnets...very weakly. Generally, with a strong enough magnet, you can make it move, but you can't pick it up. Or you can pick it up every so slightly, but it won't hold for any acceleration.


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## Lino1406 (Oct 31, 2017)

Attention, gold diamagnetism refers to .99999 gold which is very rare


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## jimdoc (Nov 1, 2017)

http://www.kitco.com/news/2017-11-01/Fake-Gold-Bar-Did-Not-Come-From-RCM.html


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## Topher_osAUrus (Nov 1, 2017)

"It didnt come from them"

....sure it didnt... ....sure. :wink:


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## 4metals (Nov 1, 2017)

The key to the success of the counterfeit program is the packaging. Usually ounce coins are in a hermetically sealed package with measures taken to foil counterfeiting. PAMP was stung by the same thing a few years back but if I remember correctly it was on bars 10 ounces and up. 

With the right packaging, a shiny brass alloy that looks right and has close to the right density can be passed off as the real deal. The packaging is something an investor doesn't want to open because that is why they feel it is genuine. The fact that a jeweler paid the premium for the bar only to alloy it is unusual. But it is the unusual and unpredictable uses that often foil even the most thought out criminal plots. 

Whomever slipped this bar into the bank likely purchased it legit and repackaged it using the packaging control numbers from the real gold bar. The packaging equipment is not cheap so the statement that this is a one time occurrence is stretching it. Maybe this was a trial test but if the equipment was acquired to do the deed there will be many more to come. And if someone was caught you can bet the farm it will be all over the news. This type of fraud can really hurt a mint's reputation. And the RCM's reputation is stellar!


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## cuchugold (Nov 1, 2017)

Last year I saw a TV program about the vault of the largest ETF gold, GLD. Apparently it is the largest single holder of bars in the world. They showed a bar, and someone noticed that the numbers did not correspond with any bar issued by the respective refiner that stamped the bar... hehe. It was all over the news. GLD price did not drop at all.


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## macfixer01 (Nov 1, 2017)

4metals said:


> The key to the success of the counterfeit program is the packaging. Usually ounce coins are in a hermetically sealed package with measures taken to foil counterfeiting. PAMP was stung by the same thing a few years back but if I remember correctly it was on bars 10 ounces and up.
> 
> With the right packaging, a shiny brass alloy that looks right and has close to the right density can be passed off as the real deal. The packaging is something an investor doesn't want to open because that is why they feel it is genuine. The fact that a jeweler paid the premium for the bar only to alloy it is unusual. But it is the unusual and unpredictable uses that often foil even the most thought out criminal plots.
> 
> Whomever slipped this bar into the bank likely purchased it legit and repackaged it using the packaging control numbers from the real gold bar. The packaging equipment is not cheap so the statement that this is a one time occurrence is stretching it. Maybe this was a trial test but if the equipment was acquired to do the deed there will be many more to come. And if someone was caught you can bet the farm it will be all over the news. This type of fraud can really hurt a mint's reputation. And the RCM's reputation is stellar!




One thing I like in theory about PAMP is their Veriscan system. They make scans of the surface imperfections on newly minted bars and keep them on file. It's possible to then scan your own bar still sealed in it's assay card, and their application can verify it against the original data saved at PAMP. I say in theory since I've never actually tried it to verify my PAMP one ounce bars. I bought them several years ago so not all of mine have the Veriscan capability. I got them from reputable EBay dealers though before we ever heard any reports of fake bars, and they're all the same thickness (fake one ounce PAMP bars are noticeably thicker). As you might assume, to eliminate variables it's only set up to work with one model Canon scanner. You can buy the scanner from wherever you like though and they say it costs under $200. A positioning frame is required that you do have to get from PAMP, which apparently costs $50. For a gold buyer though, I think it would be cheap insurance if they deal a lot in PAMP products.


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## 4metals (Nov 1, 2017)

Don't think for a minute they invested in Veriscan technology because they wanted to. They had no choice as so many bad bars with their markings were being passed. Most were machined out and had tungsten cores if I remember right. But reliability of anything marked PAMP was down the tubes so they had to do something. Veriscan was their answer and it apparently kept them in the business of bullion bars. 

If this issue with RCM starts to hurt sales on their investment bullion, they may be using this type of technology as well.

http://pamp.com/veriscan


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## jonrms (Nov 2, 2017)

Anything you want to know about fakes shout. I run a Facebook page dedicated to helping members with gold and silver fakes. Far too much going around.


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## cosmetal (Nov 2, 2017)

jonrms said:


> Anything you want to know about fakes shout. I run a Facebook page dedicated to helping members with gold and silver fakes. Far too much going around.


Why not show a link?

James


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## jonrms (Nov 3, 2017)

Sorry I am treading carefully in here. MODS... if this picture is not allowed please let me know and remove it.

I couldn't find a link about advertising a site which us not what I am doing. It's a Facebook page that is NOT public. No advertising. And it's about bullion and coins and bars ..


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## jonrms (Nov 3, 2017)

turtlesteve said:


> Forum members,
> 
> I have read several threads discussing fake or filled bullion bars (silver and gold), and obviously there have been some confirmed instances of this. However, my question is, can anyone point to confirmed instances of "high quality" counterfeits of lower denominations (i.e. bullion coins or ~1 oz bars)? By high quality, I mean coins that were of the correct dimensions and weight, but were actually gold clad or gold plate over tungsten (or similar).
> 
> ...


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## jimdoc (Nov 3, 2017)

jonrms said:


> Sorry I am treading carefully in here. MODS... if this picture is not allowed please let me know and remove it.
> 
> I couldn't find a link about advertising a site which us not what I am doing. It's a Facebook page that is NOT public. No advertising. And it's about bullion and coins and bars ..



A link to the facebook page would be fine. Any links to promote a business must be in the "Refiners, Buyers, Assayers, etc." section.


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## g_axelsson (Nov 3, 2017)

Yeah, what Jimdoc said.  

Göran


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## jonrms (Nov 3, 2017)

Ok. The picture above is what you need to search for in Facebook. But if anyone has ANY suspect silver or gold I will help in anyway I can. If you want to join please say your from this forum and your automatically in. I bet everyone usually to prevent sellers


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## jonrms (Nov 12, 2017)

Here you go. My friend fell was caught out with 20+ of these coins. He sent me photos and I told him to send me one. I didn't believe that one of the easiest fakes I found. See for yourself it is silver plated.

https://youtu.be/Z4WwuKAq6GI


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## 4metals (Nov 12, 2017)

Interesting using a magnet slide. This fake obviously magnetic but how would a solid copper fake coin with silver plating behave on the slide? 

Is this slide something coin dealers can purchase or did you make it?


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## Palladium (Nov 12, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fake+coin+slide


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## 4metals (Nov 12, 2017)

Nice tool for a coin buyer to have on the desk. Still my random copper plated with silver knock off would fool this. I would like to see how copper performs on the slide. The author said copper will also slide slower. 

Still, a useful tool.


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## jonrms (Nov 13, 2017)

Coins react differently. BUT then you look for weight. Thickness size details. If you give me a coin I can tell you if it's fake or not. ... which brings me to this... the last test i use for silver is a Silver solution. I am thinking thats nitruc acid??? But surely not. But my gild solution must be aqua Regia? No??? I want to know hour thoughts


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## jimdoc (Nov 13, 2017)

https://www.ishor.com/how-to-make-and-use-gold-test-solutions


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