# Toll refining mishap for a member.



## cnbarr (Jun 21, 2013)

Hello forum,

Well where to begin, like the title says, "toll refining mishap". 

A while back I did a few refines for a forum member, (his name I won't state because I don't feel it necessary to do so) the first bit of material he sent me was just alright to say the least, a lot of boards way too many in fact that I soon realized that a small refiner can not take whole boards and make a profit let alone not lose money. But I did so to try to prove my worth as refiner.

I learned the hardest way possible that it was the wrong route to try and prove myself as refiner, but that is how many of us learn I suppose. 

Anyway back to the reason for my post. I took a good loss on the first batch of material, that consisted of over 50lbs of boards, that I agreed to process for 10%. That was my bad and I learned quick that small refiners can't process boards and make a profit, and I stated I wouldn't refine anymore boards because of this. 

It was shortly after the first batch that this forum member wanted to send more material, as well as some material that another forum member had for months and he didn't like the results or the time frame it was taking to have his material processed. I agreed to process this material as long as it wasn't all boards. Well the package arrived and it was 90% boards and PCI cards (I have pics and weights of the material, but I choose not to eat up the forums bandwidth with what I feel to be unnecessary dribble). Not too long after this he tells me he is leaving the country and wants to know if I will process the material he has before he leaves. Again I agree to do so, and tell him again I will no longer process whole boards, and sure enough it was a 150lb box of boards and garbage, there was even an extra 45lbs of LED panels encased in epoxy resin that he wanted assayed.

Needless to say, against my better judgment I agreed to refine the material, well over a 160lbs of what most would consider trash. After 45+ days and about $630 in chemicals I finished the material for a grand total of 13.3g gold. I then sat on his gold for well over a month sending him multiple messages with no response. 

I used all my chemicals to finish his materials (from which cost me far more then one could ever make off of it, not including my time which apparently means nothing to some people) and I had more refines on the table and no chemicals to process them, so I made a judgment call and cashed in his gold so I could keep things up and running. The amount I was paid on the gold, even though it was 98% of spot, still didn't cover the cost of chemicals to refine the material, let alone my time for processing. 

This forum member has threatened me and held it over my head to go public on the forum and ruin my reputation (if I even had one to begin with) and I am tired of living in fear of his words and threats. So I am telling the forum myself, I know what I did may have not been the best decision, but I also told him that I would no longer process whole boards, and I did anyway because I liked the guy and I was trying to help him. 

I don't know what else to say, some may feel like I screwed up some may not, and one day I will make it right with this man whether people feel I should or not, I am just tired of being fearful and threatened. 

I just want to continue to be a part of what I love, and help others to find the same. I do and I don't blame this man for being upset, but he also sent me material to refine that I said I would no longer refine and expected grandiose results.

My rant is over and if people think less of me that is fine.

Thanks for reading,

Chris


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## patnor1011 (Jun 22, 2013)

A lot of people over estimate their material. I know, I did the same. 
While 10% may be sound for somebody doing karat gold I would not do it for less than 15%. That is for karat gold.
I would never toll refine electronics like mother boards or cards. We are simply not equipped to do so. If somebody goes to effort of harvesting material from boards and want to process these then maybe but try to explain to somebody that even 30% is hardly covering cost of your consumables, not to mention time involved. I do have one member/friend to send me few kilos of IC to process from time to time and I do it for him for 30% but that is because I consider him as a friend. I would not toll refine mixed IC for less than 40% and who tried to process them knows that there is no greed on my side. It is simple math. I do not consider myself charity and have enough experience with these to know what to expect and what costs are involved. 
I would not touch pins in form of toll refining. They may look nice and reality is often very bad accepted by people who own them, mainly when considering how long and painful process is to just remove or harvest them from board and prepare for refining.

You did mistake to accept this deal and there is some kind of responsibility with that. I think that the best will be just purchase material and take risk, toll refining of unknown is bigger risk as other part will generally not accept result if it is smaller of what their expectation was. Not to mention that expectations are always bigger than reality is.


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## Geo (Jun 22, 2013)

your not alone. it happens to almost all who toll refine. the outcome never matches the expectations. try sending something like that to a real refiner and you will receive a bill for services rendered (handling your Ewaste). people say there is two sides to every situation so i for one will wait for the other side to give my opinion.

Chris, i wouldnt lose any sleep, if i were you. as for future reference, i would make it understood that if it doesnt refine a certain weight, either dont send it or be prepared to get your feelings hurt. i refine for friends on the forum sometimes, pretending to charge but seldom keep anything for myself.


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## ericrm (Jun 22, 2013)

i must admit that the first toll refine i did for a member here was very similar to yours, i had agreed to do the job for 10% + chemical (i add myself way over estimated the material... thinking 3 once for plated boards and similar material :roll: ...) that member never send me the needed acid so i eventualy found a way to get my honor back as a refiner.
but still today i refuse to do toll refine based on that experience: it is a bunch of crap... all the blank in the equation are up to you to fill but you have no way to proove that you didnt loose or cheat the customer.

so what i do now its give a fair price, very similar to what i would give for toll refinning but with all the card are in my hand. i have all the time i need to work in peace ,and a mistake only goes in my stock pot witout any repercution except me that scream and cry to the refinner lord... 8) 

i feal your pain, your not alone


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## Harold_V (Jun 22, 2013)

I toll refined for all my years as a refiner. I also REFUSED to accept electronic scrap. No one in their right mind, working on a small scale, can handle that material and make a profit. It's simply too labor intensive, which is the message I've tried to convey since my first day on this forum. Processing escrap is a great hobby, but it doesn't lend itself well to making a profit. 

My fee for karat gold, filings or scrap pieces, was 10%. There were no hidden charges, and customers quickly came to understand that my fee was very reasonable, especially after submitting values to a major refiner, where multiple charges quickly exceeded my 10% fee. 

I wouldn't dream of accepting low grade wastes for even a 50% fee, assuming I was still refining. That applies to almost all escrap. The only escrap I ever processed was only for myself, to satisfy my curiosity and hunch that it was best avoided. I maintain that posture to this day, so long as one is hoping to make a profit. 

Your best approach to this issue is exactly as it was handled. If the individual (who you prefer to not name) does not understand how he abused you by sending material that you clearly stated was not acceptable (I'm trusting you that you did so, as you claim), he should be sent a bill for the costs you incurred in processing that which you received. Alternately, you should have offered to send the material back to him at his expense. The only mistake you made was in attempting to process, secure in the knowledge that it would be a losing proposition. 

Assuming you have stated your case fairly, and the individual with whom you conducted your transaction does not understand his culpability in this problem, make his name known publicly. One will not be harmed by false accusations if both sides of an issue are aired. Beyond that, It is only fair that you can confront your accuser, and for readers to gain an understanding of what transpired from the perspective of the other party. 

There are people in this world who make their way in life by living off the sweat of others. They have no concern about how they take advantage of others, so long as it is to their benefit. I know this to be true, all too well, as I have a brother who fits that description. He is amoral and thinks nothing of screwing over anyone in his path, so long as he benefits. Don't allow yourself to become a victim of such people. Expose them, so long as what you've stated here is the truth. 

Harold

Edit:

A comment on the expectations of the owners of values. 

In most cases, expectations typically exceed reality. If a guy sends you a pound, he expects a pound in return. 

Is that realistic?

Of course not. If it was, why was it sent for refining? One does not refine pure material---one refines contaminated material, from which there will be losses. How much is the question. 

Want to make a customer happy? Tell them the yield was much lower than it was, then send the proper yield. You've done nothing wrong, and they are typically overwhelmed by the amount received, because they have already accepted the amount you reported. 

I did that with a fellow who became a fast customer. He had been burned by one of the eastern seaboard refiners, and since had refused to send out his low grade wastes for refining. He was finally convinced by another of my customers to give me a try. I was aware of his problem, as I'd heard the complete report. 

This guy sent a huge number of filters, along with polishing wastes. The yield, which I do not recall precisely, was something like 15 troy ounces of gold. My fee was 15% (incineration takes a lot of time and effort). When it was completed, I placed a call to tell him his yield was something like five ounces, but I sent him what he was rightfully due. You can imagine his response (and surprise) when he received more than ten ounces of gold.


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 22, 2013)

I can say that I've learned a great deal from this thread, already. Mostly, I'll never send you my boards!! :twisted: 

But, I would like to know the identity of the other member. There is little reason to keep the secrecy if the other member was threatening to expose your failing. For his part, I'd like to know what he has to say about it all. You've acknowledged here what you owe and provided a guarantee to make it right. I find it hard to believe that you didn't make those same guarantees in your private conversations with this member. I find it equally unlikely that you would go public with such personal humiliation and embarrassment absent such threats to your honor and reputation. And that, specifically, Is what I would like to know, why he acted as a bully in his dealings with you, nearly from the beginning up until now.


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## artart47 (Jun 22, 2013)

Hi.
I kind of think of the refining industry and individuals who refine for others like this. Broken people go to a human repair facility with the expectation that they are going to fix them like new. The doctors and staff save their life or restore function to what is malfunctioning but if the drug they gave them has a side effect or the results aren't good, they want to bad-rap and sue the doctor.
Per-haps I'm wrong, but I here alot of talk about people getting scewed by refiners and there are some people who have tested, know what is in their load and get shorted. How meny loads does a refiner get in that is low grade and doesen't produce what the owner expected and then the refiner is a crook?
Don't be down on yourself! the guy sent you crap after you told him not to. artart47


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jun 22, 2013)

Chris,

Sorry to hear this turned out this way. I was hopeing it wuld turn out better for you than it did for me with this person. You have done nothing wrong IMHO, stand your ground and you will have 100% support from me and a lot of the members of the forum. And don't be discouraged if you get some negative feed back.

Good luck man. My heart goes out to you.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 22, 2013)

This thread of posts remembers me to a viking thing court (edit: where every free man and warrior gets heard to decide in a democratic manner, who is right or not and how to deal the conflict)). So, this forum is quite interesting from a social behavioural approach, too. I love it!


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## AUH-R (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't condone threats of blackmail anymore than the next person, so for that alone I think the customer if what you say is true, is not somebody anyone would want to do business with. However, I don't understand why you would even attempt to recover and refine a losing proposition when you had already experienced a loss on the first consignment? As Harold said when the package arrived and was not what was agreed, why did you not renegotiate or send it back at his cost? You said you wanted to help because you liked him? Unfortunately, you have entered into an agreement with your word. 

In business it is important to stick to your word as ultimately that is what customers will judge you on.

We strive for 100% customer satisfaction but in reality this never happens, all you can do is make sure the other 99% of your customers have a fantastic experience, accept it went wrong this time round and accept the possible negative feedback on this one transaction.

All I can say is learn from this and leave emotion at the door when you negotiate there is no such thing as a friend in a business transaction, they are ultimately a customer.

Best wishes,
Au-H-R


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 22, 2013)

Chris,

I am sympathetic to your situation, but my view is a little different than most of those expressed so far. You learned from your first experience that refining boards was a losing proposition. When your customer wanted to send you more material, you told him you wouldn't do it if it was all boards. Your customer sent you 90% boards. At that point you should have stopped and returned the material. By accepting the material and processing it, you bound yourself to the toll refining agreement. Then he sent more material and you accepted it as well.

Your customer had no control over what it cost you to refine his material. You recovered 13.3 grams of gold. You were entitled to retain 10% as you had apparently agreed. At that point, it really doesn't matter how long it takes to contact the customer. It's still his gold. It's your responsibility to hold it safely until you hear from him and can deliver it to him.

The fact that you used all your chemicals on his lot, and had other refines waiting did not give you the right to sell his gold to fund your activities. You had every right to sell your portion, but not his.

You said:


> one day I will make it right with this man


Why does he have to wait for "one day"? You owe him his gold. You also say he:


> expected grandiose results


You haven't mentioned that he has asked for more than what you recovered, so I don't understand the comment about grandiose expectations. I suspect he would be satisfied to receive his 12 grams or so of gold.

Sorry if that's an unpopular view, but you entered into an agreement and you need to fulfill your part of the bargain. The sooner the better.

To some degree, this reminds me of Testerman's situation. If someone is going to take on toll refining for others, they need to make sure they can follow through on their responsibilities to their customers. The refiner's financial situation should never impact the customer's returns.

Dave


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## Pantherlikher (Jun 22, 2013)

I'd have to aggree with FrugalRefineron this.
You made an agreement. Plain and simple. You accepted the material and processed it. Friend or no. If it was not worth doing, or cost alot more then thought, you should have not done anything and discussed it very clearly with said nameless friend.

In the automobile repair business for years, I've learned the hard way to deal with these kinds of situations.
I have screamed at an owner I worked for for lying and trying to cheat a customer about me breaking something while fixing something else. 
After yelling at the owner and being threatened if being fired, I imediately called the customer and explained in great detail everything including my breaking something. Having this customer for years, She told me to fix what needed to be done and she would pay for it all and thanked me for owning up to my mistake. When she came to pick her car up, she told the owner she wont be comming back because of him and then asked me to recomend a new mechanic for her.

Bussiness is bussiness and friendship is as it is but you never hide, lie, cheat or steal unless you openly discuss it first. 

Your best and only option would be to send his due and move on; lesson well learned.
This will guarrantee your reputation is of honesty and integrity.

B.S.
... Truth almost always hurts but it is the right way of doing anything...


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## JHS (Jun 22, 2013)

Dave I completly agree.
john


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## squarecoinman (Jun 22, 2013)

Hi Chris 

I dont understand why you would refine batch 1 and loose money, then take the next batch and know you will loose money and then take another batch that will let you loose even more money. 

I take what you write for being the true, but we never did hear the other side and I may change my position as in any Viking court one should hear both parts, but based on what you write, I feel that you made a long string of mistakes, If you did not want to loose money on the second batch why not send it back ? and why saying yes to the last batch it does not make sense. But since you did not send it back or did re negotiate the rules, you should keep you part of the bargain. So you own this person 12 grams of gold. And you lost 630 of chemicals, bad luck, you knew what you where doing after batch 1. So my view is you should solve this right now and not one day in the far future.

I also would like to say that any member sending material for toll refining knowingly that the other part does not wish to refine this kind of stuff, is a person that takes advance of other people and I have no respect for this kind of people. ( but again we did not hear the other part )

I hope that we can hear the full story from both parts. 

scm


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## Geo (Jun 22, 2013)

guys, before we let baser instincts rule, keep in mind that Chris has stated he didnt intend on cheating anyone. as far as i know, cnbarr has been honest and willing to share what he knows with the forum. have you ever heard of "atta boy's"? each "atta boy" raises your character and you can have a thousand "atta boy's" and be at the top of the heap and just one "oh crap" and you have to start over again? im not only trying to lighten the mood but also make a point. if a good person makes a mistake, is that any reason to jump on the bashing bandwagon?


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## cnbarr (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm sure the member I did this refine for will chime in at some point, so I guess it doesn't hurt to disclose who he is, it was "MMFJ". I suppose I was trying to spare him in some way and I don't know why.

There has been a lot of post here on both sides of the fence, I don't know that I can individually answer everyone. 

One thing that comes to mind is, there first job I did for him was agreed at 10%, this last refine there was no price negotiated and as far as sending the material back to him that was impossible because by the time I had received the material he had already left the country. He might be satisfied with the full 13.3g or not, but he has told me I also owe him 1g per month interest on top of the original amount that he now calls a "loan".

It's bad situation, if I could take it all back I would. I consider myself to be an honest person and I was and have been completely honest with MMFJ through the whole thing. I have done several refines for forum members since this debacle with MMFJ, some barely broke even some at a small profit, but I haven't been able to get enough gold to make payment to him at this point.


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## Lou (Jun 22, 2013)

This should be a lesson to every member that electronic scrap is best left to a hobby unless it is at a great split or done in massive quantities for brokerage.

Even then, the only way to make money is to be selective. You can make money doing high grade pins. You can make money doing back planes. You can make a lot more money grinding them up and sampling and assaying (what I do on boards) and sending them out. The low-hanging fruit is the client's responsibility. If he wants to send in a bunch of pins and fingers that are clean, all the merrier. If he wants to send them with a bunch of plastic or still attached to the board, he needs billed by the hour for your time high grading them. Just make it clear in the beginning that if the material is NOT what you expect and was not as described, you do not have to keep up your end of the bargain because he has not kept his. If the client doesn't like it, tell them they're free to pick it up or have it shipped back. 

I have clients that will occasionally send in very scary stuff!

And after you found that you weren't able to make money the first go around, that's when you stop accepting it. Not making money on a transaction is a recipe for disaster and might be the starting crack in an honest man's integrity. Best just to tell them to move on.


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## jmdlcar (Jun 22, 2013)

Hi all,

What I have learn is don't do any Toll Refining. Unless he/she is there with me so they can see everything do.
Just my 2 cents.

Jack


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## patnor1011 (Jun 22, 2013)

What happened here is similar but not the same situation as it was with Barren. You guys (do not take it very personal it is meant as comparison) wanted to be wolf but ended up as sheep. 
You took too big of a bite. When you bite too much you can choke to death. 
It just seems MMJF over reacted but can we blame him? That first situation was dragging for couple of months and public exchanges here on forum and on other places too. Maybe he lost patience, who knows. We cant judge anyone, I can say how I see things but it will be different from somebody other's view. I said it in my first post here that you accepted deal so responsibility came along with it. You can and should protest if other part try to harass you. Well, if he is unhappy with amount recovered then there is not much what you can do with his feelings. Point is, you must send him whatever you owe immediately if you want to keep your face in this situation. 
You Chris knew very well that he was unhappy with what happened in that other deal and even after pressure here on forum he was unhappy with end result too. That should gave you some warning signs or at least taste of what you can expect.


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## cnbarr (Jun 22, 2013)

Lou said:


> And after you found that you weren't able to make money the first go around, that's when you stop accepting it. Not making money on a transaction is a recipe for disaster and might be the starting crack in an honest man's integrity. Best just to tell them to move on.



Which is exactly what I have done with almost every refine since that one! If it is not clean, sorted, and separated the way I request for the material I tell that I will refine, I tell them not to ship anything.



patnor1011 said:


> I said it in my first post here that you accepted deal so responsibility came along with it. You can and should protest if other part try to harass you. Well, if he is unhappy with amount recovered then there is not much what you can do with his feelings. Point is, you must send him whatever you owe immediately if you want to keep your face in this situation.
> You Chris knew very well that he was unhappy with what happened in that other deal and even after pressure here on forum he was unhappy with end result too. That should gave you some warning signs or at least taste of what you can expect.



I accepted part of a deal, I agreed to refine pins and cpu's and clean materials etc.. but not the boards and LED panels, even though I eventually refined the boards I didn't agree to do so. I made a deal and I am obligated I know this, but to what extent is the hard part? I saw the waring signs as well, but it was too late to turn back as I was already nose deep in it.

I have gotten so many options on both sides my head is spinning right now, some say pay full amount immediately, some have said send him bill for services rendered. I know I owe him something, but whats rightfully fair, fair for him, fair for both of us?


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## Palladium (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't know about fair, but i know what is right and probably the easiest thing to do to settle it and be done with the whole situation. Send him the 12 grams you owe him and chalk it up to experience. Gold is down right now anyway so your actually coming out ahead ! As far as interest and what the value of the gold " would have been " verses today's price clauses i wouldn't even argue about that. Box the gold up and ship it back and if he has a problem with that then i would say you are right and have done everything possible to be " Fair " about it.


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## patnor1011 (Jun 22, 2013)

That is exactly what I was trying to say. No matter what you do some people will always be unhappy. But you went ahead and processed even that you knew you are going to lose.
To keep it simple you should send him his 90% asap and take the hit. Next time you will know what not to accept for refining. I will rather lose couple hundred dollars than one hour of sleep and thinking what is fair and what not. Every person do have different perception of fairness or truth or whatever.
I would put matter behind me as soon as possible.


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## cnbarr (Jun 22, 2013)

It has never been a question as to whether or not I owe him or should pay him, I know I do and I will that's all that matters. The problem I had and am having is him using the forum as a means to threaten and extort me for payment and interest. If I had the gold or the money to pay him I wouldn't be typing this right now.

I screwed up, I know this, I'll square up with him and make it right I just don't know when that will be. I've tried to get the gold to pay him, and he and I have discussed it six ways to sunday, but things fell short.


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## ericrm (Jun 22, 2013)

if it havent been already done, this would be a very good time to go true your stockpot and used filter. and do not use copper to cement value...


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## yar (Jun 22, 2013)

So mistakes were made by both parties it seems. If you don't have the gold to send him than why not just send him the cash for the value of it at the time you sold it? I would think that would be a reasonable solution at this point.


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 22, 2013)

yar said:


> So mistakes were made by both parties it seems. If you don't have the gold to send him than why not just send him the cash for the value of it at the time you sold it? I would think that would be a reasonable solution at this point.




I would imagine he doesn't have the cash, as he sold the gold to get chemicals he needed to continue refining.


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## MMFJ (Jun 22, 2013)

I'll not go into a lot of 'he said' stuff.....

I believe that FrugalRefiner and Lou had some 'spot on' comments. Well stated and open-minded responses.

Two things I would like to say;
1. I never once asked for, nor had any expectations of, any sort of results that Chris hadn't told me to (I had, and have, very little experience on that, which is why I sent stuff out to be refined by 'experts'). To me, sending out any sort of material (typically with pictures or videos first) will yield what it will, and I expect those accepting it to do the best job possible. What comes out, comes out. 

2. My 'threat' of taking this to the forum was to escalate this (seems that certainly happened!). I don't feel that bringing in all the private messages has a lot of value, but I think it will add to this 'conversation' to at least put one that I sent....


> need a timeframe answer......
> Sent: December 27th, 2012, 7:53 pm


that is one thing that I believe was left out of the original post - that this gold has been "sold and used for other chemicals" (first I heard of the details on prices, etc., btw...... - I was told it was "at a loss", but I had no idea of numbers until I just read it here.....) for now, around TEN MONTHS.... (I'm trying very hard not to be 'hard nosed' about dates - PMs have it when/if I need it, but I can tell you that I left the country on 9/12/2012 - you do the math.....).

I believe Chris is one of the finest refiners around - have since the first time I saw his work. Compared to other's I used, there is no question he is 'top' in my book.

However, selling my gold for his own purposes (ok, he tried to contact me and I was out of the country - but that ain't no "OK by default" thing!) was not correct.

I tried to be patient - heck, that December, 2012 PM was something like 3 months afterward anyway......

After a bit more time (I think it was another month - again, if it is really anybody's business to pick nits, I'm happy to copy/paste the PMs......) that I felt this had become a LOAN and appropriate interest should be charged (after all, it is lost opportunity cost, etc. to me - should I not be compensated for such?). And, now - SEVERAL months later, yes, I am getting a bit tired of waiting for any sort of news, compensation, etc. (I've been in Ecuador now for nearly 10 months, so you tell me........) 

The POINT is that an agreement was made (I never twisted anyone's arm about what to take, what percent is reasonable, etc. - that, after all, is what an 'agreement' is about - taking two sides to understand and agree before the next step is performed), the gold was processed and then, WITHOUT agreement, sold to cover "other" costs...... I've allowed that (which I was forced to accept as the gold was already gone without my knowledge or permission), been patient, and feel that it is only 'normal' to expect interest on such a 'loan' (which I only feel reasonable to believe it transfers to - certainly after X amount of time...).

Now, anyone want to bash on me - go for it. Nor, do I feel nor desire you should bash on Chris. I appreciate him bringing this public, though with the key element of TIME missing, I think the story missed the mark with several. My 'threat' of taking it public was that he would have a (yet another) week to pay the debt and nothing would be said. He chose to take it to the forum within minutes of reading my PM - that was his choice.


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## kkmonte (Jun 22, 2013)

Here is my take on it, i'm not a lawyer, just relying on my many years of watching Judge Judy...

I think this "case" is a simple one. There was an agreed upon contract (probably considered a verbal one since there was probably no actual signed piece of paper called a "contract"). Toll refining his material for a 10% fee. Now as you were in the process of re-fining his material, if you say his material changed to what was originally agreed upon, then that would/could have been grounds to invalidate the original contract. You could have settled up what had already been processed and probably subtracted the shipping to ship all his stuff back to him. I think that would have even stood up in court.

However, just like others have said, as soon as you started processing the additional stuff you accepted it as part of the original agreement. You can't unilaterally change the contract terms. You know you did the wrong thing by selling his share of the gold "to keep things moving". You need to make him whole and the only way is by giving him ~12 grams of gold or the value of his 12 grams of gold when you sold it. I think you know you owe him that money and will probably pay him as soon as you can. So what you should do, is find something you can sell, or find a family member to borrow the ~$500 from to get this over with and then you can pay that person back "when you can". He shouldn't have to wait any longer because of your personal financial problems.

I would also add that since the original contract didn't have anything in it about length of time (i'm guessing) or interest, then MMFJ shouldn't be getting (or expecting it for that matter) it.


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## MMFJ (Jun 23, 2013)

Well, "Judge kkmonte" , since you bring up certain 'legal' terms (one of my 'hobby' passions, though I will not get into too much detail on that.... - I worked with an Asset Protection attorney for 5 years doing seminars, consults, etc., so I got a bit of 'exposure' on some of this stuff....), let me comment on what you have said (and note that I agree with your 'legal' view, as long as you stay with it....).


kkmonte said:


> You can't unilaterally change the contract terms.


That is very correct. And, neither can you, as a 'judge'......

As you said, the act of toll refining various material was an ORAL agreement ('verbal agreement' means that it is one using words - either written or spoken - see Wikipedia for that and other good info), though would 'stand up in court' (most states, certainly NV where it was initiated counts oral contracts as valid for things that take less than one year to complete - which, btw, automatically then places a time limit.....). 

OK, then what about the statement of "ready in a couple/three weeks" and/or the 'acceptable' timeframe stated in various posts on this forum as to how long toll refining should take, etc. (easily referenceable material from peer experts stating 2-4 weeks is 'common' if not 'normal', certainly admissible....)?

Then, there is the 


kkmonte said:


> You know you did the wrong thing by selling his share of the gold "to keep things moving".


Admitting to this 'wrong' (as I have agreed to re-form the agreement into a loan, it is not correct to call it a 'crime', however, without that acceptance, I believe it legally falls in that realm - even though the amount is fairly small....).



kkmonte said:


> You need to make him whole and the only way is by giving him ~12 grams of gold or the value of his 12 grams of gold when you sold it.


Correct, though, since "You can't unilaterally change the contract terms. ", a NEW contract is in place (written via PM as terms, non-contested, which constitutes an agreement - much as the fact of selling another's property without consent constitutes the initiation of a new agreement - or other legal 'cause').



kkmonte said:


> I think you know you owe him that money and will probably pay him as soon as you can.


Early PMs state that (as part of the 'NEW' agreement) this 'loan' was not to be carried out long-term and replies were such that this is clear to both parties (three months was stated, though this has been allowed to go further - perhaps a court would state that constitutes additional terms of extension [to be less than one year, see above], though certainly not without interest due, which was stated [written in PM and not contested = agreement] as 1g/m). 

"Soon as you can"????? never heard J.J. say that! :roll: 



kkmonte said:


> I would also add that since the original contract didn't have anything in it about length of time (i'm guessing) or interest, then MMFJ shouldn't be getting (or expecting it for that matter) it.


I believe I covered that - seems a bit inconsistent, considering the 'contractual' circumstances (i.e., I think Judge Judy wouldn't see it that way.....).

If you really want to get 'legal', providing anything other than the original gold (or its value at the time of sale, since taking this to an agreement outside of simple toll refining moves it into the realm of dollars (YUCK!), which has its own laws...... - each month's interest should be paid in dollars according to the value of the 1g on the date of maturity (which is the 17th), which, since the price of gold has varied so widely these last 10 months, will take a bit of calculation......

Anyway, I look for a quick (and reasonable) conclusion (as I said, I didn't really want to take this public - as I knew of the comments, etc. that create [potentially unnecessary] emotion and would rather avoid them, but will respond as/when it seems necessary).

I do like the 'J.J.' slant - made me pull out some lesser used thoughts again (brain massage = good stuff!)


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## cnbarr (Jun 23, 2013)

I don't hold any ill will towards you Steve I never have, except the multiple threats of using the forum against me, which I felt to be wrong. I didn't start this thread to bash on anyone or to start a "he said" war, that's why I left your name out of it to begin with. But of course with human nature and emotions on both sides, that is bound to happen. The reason I started the thread was to own up to my mistakes, I screwed up and I've said it multiple times here, it was early in my toll refining career, which I'm sure is now short lived at this point. I like you as a person Steve, I think you have unrealistic expectations and views in the small refining world, but in general for the most part I think your a good person and I like you as an individual.

I screwed up I'll say it again I'm sorry and I will make it right.


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 23, 2013)

Can't rewrite a contract? Where did you get that nonsense? I think JJ would be yelling at both of you and screaming, "I'M NOT REWRITING ANYTHING! THERE WAS NO CONTRACT!! I'M WRITING THE CONTRACT!!" 

Quite frankly, without Chris being so forthright, you, MMFJ, would have lost your case in any court. This agreement should have been reduced to writing. The Statute of Frauds requires it! It is because of instances such as this that the SOF was initially developed. I could and would argue that the initial terms for the first batch didn't carry over to the second batch and any terms before the third batch didn't carry over to the third batch. Because either you were contemplating a long-term relationship, or you weren't. And while the two of you may have been able to negotiate the completion of three batches in under a year, you wouldn't come under the $500 threshold for the SOF to kick in. Oral contracts are fine, as ill-advised as they are, as long as the work doesn't stretch beyond a year and the value provided is under $500. There are a few other requirements, but those are the pertinent ones. 

I believe you would be awarded interest, in Nevada. But not for what you think. Nevada courts are some of the most lenient when it comes to interest rates, but in Title 8, they set the amount to that of the largest bank in the state. Your 1 gram per month is far in excess of that amount and you'd never get it. As for Utah, where cnbarr lives, and where it is much more likely venue exists, the rate would be lower than in Nevada. I believe Utah caps at around 10%. Of course, because you've attempted to apply a gram onto cnbarr, the courts in Utah are more likely to strike the whole agreement because of the outrageous amount of interest! Tread at your own peril. Notice in both cases that the judges can, and will, alter the terms of an agreement, especially this ragtag agreement between you and cnbarr.

And just as an aside for anyone wanting to use this site as "easily referenced material." Good luck! I would tear you apart in front of the judge if you proposed using GRF in a court case! Judicial notice is not always an easy thing to garner, especially for a forum where opposing counsel can simply show contradicting posts between experts. And let's not even get into a Daubert analysis for any of those "experts." There is a legal world and then there is the real world. And while I agree that there are giants on this site that I consider experts, I would just as easily use every tool at my disposal in the legal realm, to ensure they never see the stand, or that they end up helping me make my case.



MMFJ said:


> as I have agreed to re-form the agreement into a loan



But to cut to the chase, I think there seems to be an agreement of some sorts here. Maybe we can solidify the document itself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you, MMFJ, agree to accept payment over time. How long? That isn't so clear, but as long as you get interest, you seem to be willing to accept payments. You are due 11.97 grams (90% of 13.3 grams) of gold or its equivalent. Gold was in a range of about $1320 to $1400 on April 17, 2013. Using $1360 as the midpoint, you are due $523.45 as of April 17, 2013. The next question is why would Nevada be considered as a venue? Cnbarr appears to live in Utah and without an agreement on which state laws apply, no court has personal jurisdiction over cnbarr, except Utah. So cnbarr, where do you live and work?

Edited because I had quote listed twice.


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## Harold_V (Jun 23, 2013)

cnbarr said:


> I don't hold any ill will towards you Steve I never have, except the multiple threats of using the forum against me, which I felt to be wrong. I didn't start this thread to bash on anyone or to start a "he said" war, that's why I left your name out of it to begin with. But of course with human nature and emotions on both sides, that is bound to happen. The reason I started the thread was to own up to my mistakes, I screwed up and I've said it multiple times here, it was early in my toll refining career, which I'm sure is now short lived at this point. I like you as a person Steve, I think you have unrealistic expectations and views in the small refining world, but in general for the most part I think your a good person and I like you as an individual.
> 
> I screwed up I'll say it again I'm sorry and I will make it right.


Allow me to be somewhat disagreeable. 
The thing that troubles me is the fact that even after being told boards were not a good idea, you were inundated with boards. That, clearly, at least to me, indicates an individual hoping to take advantage of your character, and, indications are, he was successful. You most likely felt some obligation (albeit misguided) to process, even though they were shipped against your better judgment and wishes. I won't trip over semantics--it may have been stated in ways that could be convoluted to advantage, but it's clear that you knew that boards were a losing proposition for you. 

That very fact gives me cause to suggest that Steve is not free of blame in this matter, and should man up and admit that he took advantage of you. He clearly did. If for no other reason, he wanted to dump his problems on you, as he was planning on moving to a different country and hoped to profit from something that would have been troublesome for him. You, in fact, became his dumping station. It is my opinion that Steve should not profit from your loss, clearly at his hand. 

When I refined, one of my customers, who, at first, I did not like, slowly became a friend. He confirmed my hunch, that I didn't like his persona, when, one day, he showed up at my facility with a small plated diamond wheel in hand. He made it clear he didn't want it, and asked if I wanted it. No mention of selling----just "do you want it?". Being a machinist, I had no particular use, but figured that if he was looking to discard it, and it was free for the taking, sure, I'd take it and put it on a shelf (where it still resides, having never been used, and this was more than 20 years ago). 

The wheel was handed to me. I thought we were finished with the subject, but had something yet to be learned from this experience. After he was comfortable that I had accepted the wheel, he then asked for two ounces of silver in payment. Why wasn't that mentioned with the offer? 

Like you, I thought we were friends, so he got his silver. It cost him my trust, as I now knew that my first assessment of this individual was correct, that he was a user, and would take advantage of me at every opportunity. 

You, sir, just got your plated wheel. 

Harold


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## nickvc (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm sure everyone who has toll refined has faced similar situations, I know I have, and the problem is that as an honest individual you feel obliged to honour the agreement and pay out even though you know in reality you have been played conciously or not by the customer.The solution has already been discussed which is to pay the amount owed even though it will cost you personally and chalk it up to experience and try to avoid similar situations in the future. The reality is that the money or gold is owed,in your mind if not in law, so to gain peace of mind agree a deal to get it sorted and then at least your conscience will be clear and you can move on. The customer in this deal should in fairness drop any idea of interest if you pay the amount in full, even if it takes a little time, and both parties should put this to bed and move on.
If you intend to toll refine in the future take this as a lesson and be aware that similar situations are very likely when customer expectations and reality can be miles apart or where the material is not as expected or advised, in that situation a phone call and a renegotiation on the terms of the deal is advisable before any treatment is undertaken.
The bottom line is your peace of mind is more valuable than the money or gold whatever the ethics of the whole transaction.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

You two would do well in finding a solution somewhere in the middle tending clearly to the customer. If not, both of you will pay with your reputations. Lawfully the toll refiner would have to pay the 90% in gold, now or depending on a deadline, which has to be defined. A contract is a contract is a contract. But since both of you have done mistakes and both of you want to have a good reputation on the forum and not that one of a Ferengi, you should find a solution like friends would do.


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## kurt (Jun 23, 2013)

Oh for crying out loud – this reminds me of two kids on a play ground – one kid has the bat – the other kid has the ball --- the kid with the bat tells the kid with the ball –“we have to play by my rules or I am going to take my bat & go home” --- & the kid with the ball says – “no we have to play by my rules or I am going to take my ball & go home”

Please understand that in the above its NOT a question of which rules they are going to play by that’s making the argument --- but rather which kid is going to be in charge of making the rules --- & each kid wants to be the one in charge of making the rules - & of course they each want to do it during the course of the game being played out – so they can change the rules at anytime in the game to their advantage to insure they come out the winner

So – now let grow up & be real adults here --- it takes both the bat & ball to play the game --- Chris had the bat (the means to do the refining) Steve (MMFJ – hope I got your name right) had the ball (the material to be refined)

Chris said what kind of material he would refine for a 10% toll

Steve – you sent Chris material that didn’t meet that spec (lower grade which Chris said he did not want to do)

BUT – Chris agreed to doing it any way – as a favor to you Steve – due to the fact you were leaving the country – so having the material sent back was not in your best interest (hence the favor)

This FAVOR cost Chris both time & money - & if you can’t see the value in that Steve (& we are not talking money value here – but the value of a friend) then I can’t help but feel a bit sorry for you Steve

Chris – you want out on a limb to do a man a favor & I take my hat off to you for doing so – but keep in mind that doing someone a favor is not something we do with expectation to get something back in return &/or for profit – its something we do to help someone out & more often then not there is a cost involved – but that cost has value in what was learned --- in this case you learned what is really involved in processing whole boards & you learned what your limitations are in such processing --- That is a lesson (with cost) that you had to learn if it was your own material – someone else’s – or Steve’s

Steve – if I were in your shoes I would thank Chris for doing me this favor & ask him if a 50/50 split would help - & then I would look for the opportunity to return the favor knowing that even 50/50 on this deal cost him

Chris - I would pay Steve off ASAP (whether it be the 90% originally agreed on – or ? any offer he makes) & I would do so if I had to sell or pawn something – but get out from under it & chalk it up to learning about processing CBs

You both need to man up – take a loss - & call it the price of learning & admit you both made a mistake with no harm no foul on ether part

Kurt


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## Geo (Jun 23, 2013)

i know neither of these guys personally but have chatted with both and like both the same. in my limited experience in refining and dealing with others while refining, i must defer to Harold as he has a world more experience than i do. Harold's words are full of wisdom. i understand that thinking of someone as a friend makes you feel obligated but there comes a point where survival instincts kick in and you must protect yourself. 

Chris, if you feel you owe Steve, then by all means make it right. personally, i would do it as soon as possible but only the 12g you owe.

Steve, we have never had words and i hope that never changes. you must not understand the work that goes into scratching gold out of electronics. if you consider Chris a friend, you should be more concerned about your friend. i understand whats right is whats right but if i sent the same material and the circumstances were the same, i would seriously consider making my part of the deal as a gift to someone that was struggling, especially if i thought of them as a friend. im not saying you should forget about your gold but it seriously looks like the dollar means more to you than friendship.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

> Steve – if I were in your shoes I would thank Chris for doing me this favor & ask him if a 50/50 split would help - & then I would look for the opportunity to return the favor knowing that even 50/50 on this deal cost him
> 
> Chris - I would pay Steve off ASAP (whether it be the 90% originally agreed on – or ? any offer he makes) & I would do so if I had to sell or pawn something – but get out from under it & chalk it up to learning about processing CBs



...you're very right, and that's also what I would do and that's, what I would expect from a friend. You guys should not discuss, what the other one has to give to you, but in how far you can go towards him.

btw: "I have no money" is NO excuse


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## MMFJ (Jun 23, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> Steve is not free of blame in this matter, and should man up and admit that he took advantage of you. He clearly did. If for no other reason, he wanted to dump his problems on you, as he was planning on moving to a different country and hoped to profit from something that would have been troublesome for him. You, in fact, became his dumping station. It is my opinion that Steve should not profit from your loss, clearly at his hand.


Although I am not interested in playing 'defend my position' (though I will, should it be necessary....), statements toward my intent stating things like the above will not be left unanswered.

It is true that this was the last load before I left. And, perhaps it did contain some 'trash' (as it might not have been picked through as well as other stuff, etc.) - however, I don't believe any large percentage difference than the well-documented previous load http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=15157&start=40 which was certainly accepted as 'reasonable' - though this load certainly did not have the percentage of chips, etc.

Though, again, nothing was sent as ill-intent, and certainly I was not the one that made the last decision to say it is worthy of refining or not (which, to me, is why I recommend sending what I feel is 'worthy' to an 'expert' that will make the final determination - much as was done in the above documented thread - several of the boards were considered trash - OK, so be it - I thought they were good, Chris found them not to be....). As I learn what is 'worthy' and not, it is my cost/loss to ship what I find 'worthy' or even 'iffy' (notwithstanding any other rules/guidelines, which were not present here, other than acceptable as per the above referenced thread). I don't even own a gun to put to someone's head to force then to accept something they don't like (even if I had such thoughts/intent).

At any rate, Harold (et al), before you continue with the "Steve had pre-thought of ill intent" pattern, I would ask that you consider the possibility that I was/am very new at this side of things and did what I could to get lots of material (mostly sold off to boardsort, - when large enough loads, sent to other refineries, etc.) and tried to 'cherry-pick' what I could to put in what I called a 'Steve box' - things that I felt worthy of hand cleaning further as time permitted and, when enough of it was gathered, sending off to someone to refine, learning in the process what was really worthy and what was trash (through feedback of the 'pro' doing the refining work). I believe, even in your highly seasoned position, you can still relate to that possibility - certainly, you should, as it is the only place that is correct, from my side of things. 

Ill intent? I've never once entered into any agreement with the plan of taking advantage - though often have become the 'victim' because I do tend to trust and over-perform on my side (as in the above case, I added a few 'bonuses' as a thanks - there is also the matter of me sending a power supply, a scissor lift, etc. [several things from my shop that I thought he could use, though the power supply was something I had asked a bit of payment for] - all in that last batch of 'trash' which has not been mentioned - again, it just seems to me that such things are part of saying "I appreciate your work/effort"). I believe I was not the only one trained to act that way (at least, it seems, from reading many of the 'honored' member's posts here, there are several that were raised by the 'Golden Rule' [and not talking about refining!]) Taking advantage? Is that really who you believe I am, what I am about? If that is the case, then please, do everyone a large favor and delete my account and every post I've ever participated in!

I'm just at a loss for words at such attacks. It seems to me that, no matter what I say, in some people's eyes, I'm WRONG. 

OK, 

1, I admit (and have from the start) that I may have sent material not worthy (and never expected anything other than 'toll refining' or 'expert opinion' about it). 

2. I admit that I don't know (still) what is refinable and what isn't. 

3. I admit that I probably never will know much about refining in its intimate details. 

4. I admit that I am not one that is interested in dealing with chemicals (that is why I hire experts - in all facets of life).

What I will NOT admit to is that there is/was/ever will be any sort of ill intent in this or any deals I have ever done. I believe with all my heart and soul in "Win/Win or NO DEAL". Everyone has the right to accept the deal or not, and until it is solidified (either by written or oral agreement), has the right (and I believe, the obligation) to make changes until such time it is solidified, at which time another of my childhood 'rules' kicks in (from my grandfather) - "Once the work is first begun, never leave it 'till it's done. Be the labor, great or small, do it well or not at all!" 

Well, I am done - for now, though understand that attacks against someone's character only contain value if justified with FACTS, not idle conjecture.


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## Palladium (Jun 23, 2013)

:mrgreen:


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## MMFJ (Jun 23, 2013)

Geo said:


> i understand that thinking of someone as a friend makes you feel obligated but there comes a point where survival instincts kick in and you must protect yourself.


exactly the position I feel I am in - after several months of being 'friendly' (and, if it is really important for anyone to know, the business I came to Ecuador to do was never fulfilled by the other 'partner' (who was to bring the cash to function here) and I have been forced to decide to scratch out a living here [for the last 9 months, I have brought in approximately $450/m, which does cover my expenses - barely.....] or go back to the US and start over, with nothing [after 'selling' my business materials with approx value of $100K to a guy for $9K - with payments..... and he never has made a single one since - and changed phone/email, etc......] - yes, we have an enforceable contract, but the cost of finding him and an attorney, etc. is just not possible...).

I understand the 'no money' thing - I'm living it right now. I took a teaching job for $3.26/hr recently (sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do) and am currently working on a new visa, which will allow me to pursue the 'junk' business here (which has been a lot more difficult to get into than anticipated - they recycle just about everything here!).

I wanted to keep this out of the forum and have been/am willing to work something out. But, it still seems to me that few are interested in my position/view of the situation. I guess that should be expected as I am not the refiner here, just the 'idiot' (and I'm ok with that term - it sure fits in this scenario) that sends in material.



Geo said:


> you must not understand the work that goes into scratching gold out of electronics.


Openly and often stated in my posts. I've tried to mess with the chemicals, they make me nervous (which is why I don't mind paying someone else to do that work - never has bothered me to pay a reasonable fee for reasonable work).



Geo said:


> if you consider Chris a friend, you should be more concerned about your friend.


which is why I have tried to be patient and keep this off the forum......



Geo said:


> i understand whats right is whats right but if i sent the same material and the circumstances were the same, i would seriously consider making my part of the deal as a gift to someone that was struggling, especially if i thought of them as a friend. im not saying you should forget about your gold but it seriously looks like the dollar means more to you than friendship.


You know what? I'm really not interested in continuing this thread/conversation. I do like Chris, always have/will, I think and as much as I am in need of some cash at the moment, I'm more interested in moving forward in my life - just as I have had to do with the loss of my other business capital. ~$500 ain't the end of the world (although, at the moment, it is a month's expenses for me) and I would just rather pursue other projects here.

Forget about the gold, the deal, the agreement, the money - none of it is really important anyway.

You guys continue to bash me for being a 'customer'. I'm moving on with my life.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

> You guys continue to bash me for being a 'customer'. I'm moving on with my life.



I haven't bashed you. Like some others, I said, *both *of you should find a solution in the middle, but* tending towards the benefit of the customer*. And I said, "I have no money" is NO excuse for not giving back,* what belongs to the customer*!


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## cnbarr (Jun 23, 2013)

kurt said:


> Chris - I would pay Steve off ASAP (whether it be the 90% originally agreed on – or ? any offer he makes) & I would do so if I had to sell or pawn something – but get out from under it & chalk it up to learning about processing CBs Kurt



The funny thing is I have tried to settle this debt, shortly after I sold the gold I got some cash from a construction job, I tried to buy back the gold from the buyer I sold it to, but I was too late it got shipped off to NTR. So I offered to pay him the cash value, he declined saying, "I don't need the cash I plenty of money, I want the gold spread around as a means of savings." Then asked me to ship three 5g bars to various locations as soon as I could.

And then a while back I did a refine, where I had a few extra grams, and offered to ship it bit by bit as I got it. He declined again, saying he didn't like the multiple shippings and preferred it be payed in one lump sum.



MMFJ said:


> there is also the matter of me sending a power supply, a scissor lift, etc. [several things from my shop that I thought he could use, though the power supply was something I had asked a bit of payment for]



You offered the power supply as a gift, and I offered to pay you a little something for it, you told me not to worry about it as you had three of them and it was no big deal. As for the screw jack, I didn't know about it till the box arrived.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

Well, you two have learned your lessons, - and I myself, too: I would not trade with any of you two after what I have read. Lucky me, I haven't anything to trade. :lol:


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## kurt (Jun 23, 2013)

MMFJ said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > Steve is not free of blame in this matter, and should man up and admit that he took advantage of you. He clearly did. If for no other reason, he wanted to dump his problems on you, as he was planning on moving to a different country and hoped to profit from something that would have been troublesome for him. You, in fact, became his dumping station. It is my opinion that Steve should not profit from your loss, clearly at his hand.
> ...



Steve - I don't believe that Harold is saying you did anything "with intent" (please see the part I underlined in Haolds quote) what he is saying is that whether by intent - or not - that is what happened --- so as much as Chis is in part to blame in the matter (which he openly admits to) you are not free from blame in the matter (which by your above statement you admit to)

You were leaving the country & wanted to get rid of the material so you sent it & once Chris got it he was kinda stuck with it because sending it back was not really an opption because you were leaving the country --- so whether by intent or not - you kinda put a burden on Chris - one of which he tried to make the best of (as a favor) & that favor cost him

Return the favor - call it 50/50 on the recovered gold - you both take a bit of a loss & you both learned something - no harm no foul

For crying out loud - we are talking about 13 grams of gold - not 13 ozt --- I hope 6.5 grams of gold (50/50) one way or the other isn't going to make or brake ether of you

Its certainly not enough worth going to court over - nor is it enough to turn into bad feelings for ether of you to pack around for who nows how long

Kurt


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

50/50 is not fair. 30% instead of 10% would be more than fair, once no one was forced to start refining and lawfully 90/10 was the deal. Since the material sent at last, was not as expected, a new agreement would have been necessary, before going on refining.

It was naiv of both of you. You guys have more experience than I and didn't want to see, that 90/10 on e-scrap is complete nonsens, unless you have a well running refinery and you are well prepared, if not specialized, for/on that stuff, - obviously not the case. Even the big boys seldom give near 90% of spot when buying e-scrap...at least in my country.

But pricing is covered in plenty of threads. If I remember right, Harold, or was it some of the other moderators, has written very informatively about it before.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

And all wanna-be-business-refineries should learn from this, that it is a very dangerous idea to start a business without the financies to survive bad times or unlucky deals...and I do not know any example for people starting any business not starting with 2 bad years.


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## Palladium (Jun 23, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> And all wanna-be-business-refineries should learn from this, that it is a very dangerous idea to start a business without the financies to survive bad times or unlucky deals...and I do not know any example for people starting any business not starting with 2 bad years.



I started with 0 capital and in less than 2 years ( I've been refining as a somewhat business venture since Feb, 2012 ) have built a successful as well as reputable business from scratch. I have never invested a personal penny in my refining business and i to have suffered losses , but being as how it's all profit is it really a loss? Toll refining is NEVER a losing venture for the refiner if done correctly and it's a GUARANTEED payday no matter what the outcome good or bad. It would be like someone losing money on a time and materials job. :shock: ( Yes i've done it. lol )
The most important thing you will learn as a professional refiner will not be about processing or chemistry, it will be all about the numbers.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

I knew, this argument would come :lol: therefor I wrote


> that it is a *very dangerous* idea to start a business


 and not "a bad idea". Dangers are relative. If you know, what you are doing (buying/dealing) and your math is right, okay. But people like you are the one out of a hundred.


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 23, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> and I do not know any example for people starting any business not starting with 2 bad years.



Now you have an example!! :lol:


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

:lol: I meant, here around me in rl. I know there are some lucky and succesful chevaliers of fortune in here.


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## Palladium (Jun 23, 2013)

He's correct. In a normal business model those rules hold true. It's the immediate liquidity in this business model that's the exception to the rule.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 23, 2013)

I understand, though, that toll refining is much safer than stárting something like a carpenters' workshop, since you know for sure you *will *get the money/value.


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## Geo (Jun 23, 2013)

i believe i may be part leprechaun because gold is what drives me. not really, but i couldnt help myself. :lol:


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## cnbarr (Jun 23, 2013)

I as was writing my last post, I got to thinking why Steve didn't want to take a cash payment, and why he wanted the gold split up and sent to different people, and not shipped to him personally? And why he so abruptly left the country? 

So I did quick search and this came up in the first page of results,

http://www.cheatedbystevemajors.com

ripoff report



MMFJ said:


> What I will NOT admit to is that there is/was/ever will be any sort of ill intent in this or any deals I have ever done.... Well, I am done - for now, though understand that attacks against someone's character only contain value if justified with FACTS, not idle conjecture.


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## JHS (Jun 23, 2013)

Birds of a feather


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## cnbarr (Jun 23, 2013)

JHS said:


> Birds of a feather



Was this directed at me, and if so what is that your implying?


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## kkmonte (Jun 23, 2013)

LOL the plot thickens! Even though I don't really see his previous real estate scams as relevant. Maybe goes a little bit towards character, but really, if he sent you a box with half filled with junk, you should have only refined the stuff worth refining, and told him the rest of your "junk" is sitting here, let me know when you want to pick it up.

Again, I know you said you felt obligated to refine, but had you ever refined these types of boards before? Did you know it would cost you more in chemicals than the gold that would have been recovered?


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 23, 2013)

cnbarr said:


> JHS said:
> 
> 
> > Birds of a feather
> ...




No, I don't think JHS intended it for you. I think he means that his support of Steve means he's flocking with him.


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## kkmonte (Jun 23, 2013)

AndyWilliams said:


> cnbarr said:
> 
> 
> > JHS said:
> ...



I don't know what his implication was, but I took it to be that he was calling both you scam artists...


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## its-all-a-lie (Jun 23, 2013)

MMFJ said:


> I'll not go into a lot of 'he said' stuff.....
> 
> I believe that FrugalRefiner and Lou had some 'spot on' comments. Well stated and open-minded responses.
> 
> ...




If there was no original discussion of what would be charged to refine this batch of trash, I would have taken the cost of my chemicals off the top and then another 10% for my fee, whatever is left is his. However, I DO NOT agree there should be any interest paid on what is owed to MMFJ. Did he offer to pay you cnbarr for storing his gold while he was out of the country? The MOST i would be willing to do is pay what is owed and not a penny more.


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## JHS (Jun 23, 2013)

Lets make the other kid look worse,so my bad looks better.


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 23, 2013)

Apparently Steve has learned that going public with a fraud, is really stressful. Of course, it never brought him to the point of paying his debts.

There is a legal argument, upheld every time, that unsolicited goods sent to your home are yours to keep. I'm sure there are enough members who remember the old Album of the Month clubs. They went into litigation when they attempted to sue customers for not returning, or paying for, albums that had been sent, unsolicited. The principle is this, if you have not entered into an agreement and something is sent to you, then you are under no obligation, whatsoever. No duty to acknowledge receipt, to return, or to pay for those items. There was no agreement the day those goods arrived at Chris'. He had made it clear that he would not do anymore boards. There was then, no agreement to ever do boards again. And then boards arrived. He was under no obligation to do anything or return them, they were his at that point. That he agreed to refine them is his decision, they are, afterall, his. He could, just as easily, have sent them to Boardsort and kept that cash. Nothing is due.

No wonder Benjamin Snowden requested asylum in Ecuador, it appears to be a fit and proper destination to avoid prosecution in the U.S.


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## CBentre (Jun 23, 2013)

All I can say is wow! We haven't had this many members pipe in on a thread in oh i'll say since barren and MMJF were at it. Cnbarr thanks for showing me that info, there are two types of people in this in this world I despise the most.Crooks and thieves, and from experience once a crook always a crook and a thief will steal your pennies from your car if they can see it. The list of people on this forum I think I can trust is getting smaller by the minute. One of the mods should be thinking of locking this thread to give the audience something to reflect on in the future, let these two guys go to court and have a judge deal with them. Otherwise your going to have a lot of members with spilt decisions attacking each other and that's not what we come here for. Both your reputations are getting ruined at least try and keep your dignity.


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## JHS (Jun 23, 2013)

A gift,you are correct.But at least some portion was agreed upon,and he sold the gold to support his bankrupt business.It was not his to sell.


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## cnbarr (Jun 23, 2013)

its-all-a-lie said:


> If there was no original discussion of what would be charged to refine this batch of trash, I would have taken the cost of my chemicals off the top and then another 10% for my fee, whatever is left is his. However, I DO NOT agree there should be any interest paid on what is owed to MMFJ. Did he offer to pay you cnbarr for storing his gold while he was out of the country? The MOST i would be willing to do is pay what is owed and not a penny more.



No he didn't, and not that it justifies my action, I sat on his gold for almost two months. And as I've said before I tried to make payment on this debt.



cnbarr said:


> Hey Steve,
> It sounds like a wide open untapped market down there! I hope you get your visa, it seems like there's a shit ton of money to be made there.
> 
> I tried to call you a few days ago and it kept saying the caller was unavailable. There's a total of 13.3g, but I was in a pinch on Friday cause I was out of chemicals and had no cash, so I cashed your gold in to buy some chems so I could finish a couple of jobs and get paid. I'm sorry about that, I don't have any personal gold right now, but I do have some cash from the jobs I finished. I will have some gold from some material in 2-3 weeks if you can wait, but if it is a rush thing I can get you the cash equivalent.
> ...





MMFJ said:


> Well...... I was afraid you might 'use' that...... Not that I don't trust you, but that really wasn't a nice thing to do - at least, not without asking..... (not that I wouldn't have likely given you the OK, but still...) - you know I have an issue with the phone thing, but email works every day and I do check the forum pretty regular now (once again - didn't for awhile...).
> 
> Anyway, it is done and not anything can be done about it at the moment.
> 
> ...



It was Harolds posts that got me thinking more deeply about this situation, something didn't feel right, which is why investigated some and made that post. There were many times, before I sold his gold, that after speaking with him I'd feel almost guilty like I did something wrong to him. I'm now pretty confident that feeling was the feeling of being manipulated by his words. 

I still intend on paying what I owe regardless.


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 23, 2013)

The gold was all his to sell. There was no agreement. I'd even go so far to say that Steve abandoned the boards when he put them in the mail. He knew, and expected, at that point, that Chris didn't want them and wouldn't refine them. He sent them anyway. The moment he did that, they ceased being his.


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## Geo (Jun 23, 2013)

maybe its just me but i feel both parties have posted both their sides and now maybe the situation will get resolved one way or another. this type of discussion has the potential to start arguments between members that had nothing to do with any of it. the only two people that can fix this is steve and chris. since it was brought out on open forum, i hope we get an update about what was done.


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## CBentre (Jun 23, 2013)

His son didn't like being In what situation? Having gold sent to him or boards? And without looking at any other e-mails it almost looks like he forced you into that agreement to take advantage of the situation. What was your next email sent to him after this Cnbarr? Now I'm a little more interested in how all this transpired.


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## cnbarr (Jun 24, 2013)

I agree with Geo, I don't think its necessary to take this any further, I could post pm's all day but it won't change anything. 

I started this thread to own up to mistake, I've been honest in what I did, and this has escalated above and beyond my intent. I know more about the person I was dealing with after today, and still know nothing, except I had no idea who I was dealing with.

I can appreciate everyone's take on this, after reading and rereading multiple times, I can agree with points on both sides and disagree with some as well. Both Steve and I wronged each other, and I feel niether of us were right, . But as human nature would have it I feel inclined to defend myself to a certain extent, I did wrong and haven't once denied that, but I tried more then once to make good on that debt and Steve denied it for what reasons I don't other then the they weren't on his terms.

And again I still have full intent of clearing this debt.


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## cnbarr (Jun 24, 2013)

One last thought, I know I didn't make any friends with this thread, I'm not a bad person and I had no intent to cause harm, I hope all those who know me and have worked with me know that!


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## solar_plasma (Jun 24, 2013)

> One last thought, I know I didn't make any friends with this thread, I'm not a bad person and I had no intent to cause harm, I hope all those who know me and have worked with me know that!



After all, I would trade with you (well, if I had anything to trade) and I trust you. You're ok.


edit:
Harold:


> There are people in this world who make their way in life by living off the sweat of others. They have no concern about how they take advantage of others, so long as it is to their benefit.



Harold, your intuition is amazing. First I thought, that this was quite fast to give a comment like this one, - though I would not have wondered and I still don't wonder, that you find the right words on first sight.


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## Palladium (Jun 24, 2013)

Businesses go bankrupt and take peoples life savings and investments all the time. Some never see a penny back, ever! Matter of fact it's the American way. Legal theft is what i call it. All they do is say "Sue Me", get in their fancy car, drive to the bank, withdraw your money and fly out of the country. I've known Chris a long time and have conducted countless business transactions with him. I also probably know more about this than anyone besides Chris and Steve, having talked to them both about this on the phone, and know that their are some extenuating circumstances also that hasn't been explained. I'm not saying Chris is right, but i'm going to say his ethics or morals have ever given me reason for concern either.


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## Harold_V (Jun 24, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> Harold, your intuition is amazing. First I thought, that this was quite fast to give a comment like this one, - though I would not have wondered and I still don't wonder, that you find the right words on first sight.


That this happened is not a mystery. Why it happened may be. I don't prefer to pass harsh judgment on others, but that's the net result when individuals get involved in matters about which they appear to know little. Whether it's by design, or by accident, others get hurt. The part that troubles me is that when such an occurrence transpires, the responsible party doesn't seem to grasp his/her responsibility in the mess, and sees him/herself as a victim. That makes it real easy to see what's really going on. 

I've had a lifetime supply of people like that--beginning with family members, who think nothing of stiffing anyone in their path, so long as it is to their benefit. I clearly do not like such people, and willingly and readily break relations with them. 

If MMFJ knows as little about escrap and boards, as he explained, why in hell was he dealing with them? Why was a penalty of interest assessed, one that would be considered unreasonable----and why was coercion used as a weapon, causing Chris to disclose the entire matter? I've seen nothing I could remotely consider to be fair, but more than enough to know that Chris has been used as a dumping station. Why, we may never know. 

I'm no attorney, nor do I understand law, but I can clearly see that this entire matter has been unjust----too many negative aspects to even consider a fair outcome, right from the outset where a 10% fee for what is literally garbage, hardly worthy of being processed, even by those with the proper means. 

I'd like readers to keep one thing in mind. While boards may be sold for $5/pound, do you really think that they are processed for ½%? I'm of the opinion, and I'd enjoy someone either proving or disproving my point, that boards are expensive to process--even by those who do them by the ton. I fully expect that the yield is about double the purchase price. Based on that, do the math. The fee is most likely 50% when all of the hidden costs are included. 

In the hopes that this entire matter does not divide the readers, it might be a good idea to wind down the comments. I did not want to lock this thread, and, indeed, encouraged banter--as a lot was at stake in the way of teaching others about how these things have a way of going south. 

With that in mind, consider allowing this entire matter to die a natural death. Keep it in the back of your minds--as it has been a good learning tool. 

Harold


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## Palladium (Jun 24, 2013)

You know on that point Harold i've noticed a rash of these incidents happening here lately on the board. I remember when we first started what i will call indorsing individuals and companies here on the forum. I remember thinking to myself that it could be a slippery slope. I have always been for the forum taking a neutral position in the market place. The forums original charter, if you will call it that, was for educational purposes above and beyond all else i think. The moment we started allowing endorsements wither for individuals or companies we allowed the forum to assume a position of bias, wither by individual or group endorsement. I thought it might actually work even though i had doubts, but from all indications the only purpose it has served is to divide and cause needless clutter and disorientation on the forum. I'm starting to think their needs to be a policy about solicitation for work or services here on the forum. I don't have a problem with outright selling of materials or even company advertising in the sig lines, but just plain out solicitations on the OPEN forum should be considered restricted in some way. I don't know, what does anybody else think? Something needs to change.


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## kurt (Jun 24, 2013)

Harold - I know you ask to let this tread die on its own - however I have a couple of legal question about a situation like this that I would like to hear what Andy has to say about them (so I am looking for a couple answers on the matter rather then expressing an oppion)

Andy - first off thank for the info on the "no obligation to pay for recieving unsolicited items"

What about abandond property? --- Chris says he had the gold for a couple of months in which time he tried to contact Steve several time asking where he wanted it delivered & he (Chis) had to sit on the gold for those couple months because he (Chris) never got a responce from Steve as to where the gold should be delivered to - so is there a point at which the property (gold) becomes concidered abandond & rightfully owned by the shop (Chris) once the costumer (Steve) has been notified of the completion of the work.

I ask because my dad had an electric motor repair shop & he had a sign on the wall that said any repairs not picked up in 30 days of notified completion was subject to sale

And - if so - then what about this thing with Steve wanting interest on the value of gold & the condition under which he will except it --- I mean Chris attemped to deliver - but was unable to so sold it --- now Steve wants restitution - which Chris has attempted to make - but Steve wants more under threat of exposing him (Chis) as a fraud &/or legal action --- isn't that extortion ???

Kurt


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## kurt (Jun 24, 2013)

Palladium said:


> You know on that point Harold i've noticed a rash of these incidents happening here lately on the board. I remember when we first started what i will call indorsing individuals and companies here on the forum. I remember thinking to myself that it could be a slippery slope. I have always been for the forum taking a neutral position in the market place. The forums original charter, if you will call it that, was for educational purposes above and beyond all else i think. The moment we started allowing endorsements wither for individuals or companies we allowed the forum to assume a position of bias, wither by individual or group endorsement. I thought it might actually work even though i had doubts, but from all indications the only purpose it has served is to divide and cause needless clutter and disorientation on the forum. I'm starting to think their needs to be a policy about solicitation for work or services here on the forum. I don't have a problem with outright selling of materials or even company advertising in the sig lines, but just plain out solicitations on the OPEN forum should be considered restricted in some way. I don't know, what does anybody else think? Something needs to change.



I see it a bit different - as much as these situation are always a sad story when they come up - I don't think it so much a matter of them dividing forum members as it gets discussed - what it does do is bring out the true character of individuals - & I don't think that is a bad thing - & to some degree it may even serve the purpose of helping some decide what kind of character they want to build in them selves

Kurt


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## ericrm (Jun 24, 2013)

what this post teached me is that grf is full of poeple that cant be trusted ... we all feel like a big familly here but nobody realy know anyone ... i dont know if it is a real saying in english "good money make good friend" but that also imply that bad money will make you loose friend...

it would be good to have a tread about experience on grf refinner alone but i already know for sure that some poeple doesnt tell the truth on some member here from the fear of represal from the community. after all ,here, the vilain is always the less loved member ex. ebay is always the crook, op are always perfect, newb are practicaly always bad , it has nothing to do with fact but only apreciation of the person in question.

one other thing to take in account is the fact that the majority of active poeple here is also actively poor... grf represent a golden dream, and as such, poeple just like with gamble, vacation, trip, drug addiction or anything of the same mental obssesion, will react more emotionnaly than just with plain fact. this will lead to more stuation like this one where the money made 2 person make the bad choice ...


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## Harold_V (Jun 24, 2013)

kurt said:


> Harold - I know you ask to let this tread die on its own - however I have a couple of legal question about a situation like this that I would like to hear what Andy has to say about them



So long as the discussion proves to be educational, and serves a purpose, I have no qualms about seeing this thread continue. I simply don't want to see it turn in to a mud slinging situation whereby readers divide in to camps. 

As was already said, situations like this tend to expose those who are sleazy---and the internet seems to have an overabundance of such people. It makes running a scam easy, as you virtually never face the individuals, so it's much easier to hide things. An open discussion can prove to be quite revealing. 

Harold


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## artart47 (Jun 24, 2013)

I've found this thread to be very interesting.
It's caused me to really think about some of the dealings I have had with local people, how things could have gone wrong and and how I should do things in the future as to avoid potential problems.
Our two fellow members will eventually solve their dispute and I think this thread will be helpfull to futur readers of things not to do.
artart47


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## JHS (Jun 24, 2013)

(what this post teached me is that grf is full of poeple that cant be trusted "
I do not think that grf is full of people that can't be trusted.I think that there are no more here than anywhere else in the world.Think of it this way,people here give there time freely.That is part of their life that they are giving you.Once you Have given that part of your llife away,it is gone forever.Life is a priceless gift and you can not pay it back.
I thank everyone for the gift they are giving.
sincerly
john


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 24, 2013)

Palladium said:


> I'm not saying Chris is right, but i'm going to say his ethics or morals have ever given me reason for concern either.



Is there a missing "not?"


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## ericrm (Jun 24, 2013)

JHS said:


> (what this post teached me is that grf is full of poeple that cant be trusted "
> I do not think that grf is full of people that can't be trusted.I think that there are no more here than anywhere else in the world.Think of it this way,people here give there time freely.That is part of their life that they are giving you.Once you Have given that part of your llife away,it is gone forever.Life is a priceless gift and you can not pay it back.
> I thank everyone for the gift they are giving.
> sincerly
> john


i think the where is gold, dream and poverty(money problem) ,they will be more poeple that shown theyr own ugly side... but you may also be right...

you talk about all the stuff that poeple give for free and, to be honest, im kind of against it. i understand the help about security and waste disposal issue. but i dont understant why poeple give theyr bread and butter freely here knowing that everybody around the world will now do the same job as they ,as efficient, and willing to do it cheaper than they are . why on earth do poeple give yield when they know that newb will now buy it to theyr client at higher price because" the gold is there " i have proof on grf. why do poeple give knowledge that took 20 years to master and give it so poeple can took 6 month to become as good and theyr worst ennemy once they get in business against them. not that i dont apreciate the knowledge but it make no sence to me...


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## Geo (Jun 24, 2013)

if the average member is anything like me, they like the idea of proving themselves to be able and capable. taking on a project that you are unsure whether or not you can complete the task should never be attempted but it happens. i believe neither of these two gentlemen made a conscious decision to cheat the other but circumstances brought them both to an impasse. decisions were made on both sides that caused the problem due to misunderstandings. Steve for not knowing what to expect and maybe having an un-real expectation on the outcome. Chris for taking on a losing proposal because of feelings of obligation. 

this does not prove to me that either of these men are not honest. dishonesty is formulating a plan to fraud or take advantage of a situation or person. this is just a very bad situation. 

as to the legality of any of the preceding, there are a couple of cliches than come to mind. "buyer beware" and "possession is nine tenths of the law".


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 24, 2013)

*Gold Refining Forum.com*
*Hobbyists and Professionals Helping One Another*


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## ericrm (Jun 24, 2013)

even if the title say so,it still doesnt make sence to me... anyway i will once again become the vilain so i will stop here...


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## JHS (Jun 24, 2013)

"buyer beware" and "possession is nine tenths of the law".
and with bankruptcy a big fat contract can be hung on the outhouse wall.
we have no guarantees in life


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## grance (Jun 24, 2013)

have to agree with ericrm. as for the rest I only toll for local people face to face busniess


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 24, 2013)

kurt said:


> What about abandond property? --- Chris says he had the gold for a couple of months in which time he tried to contact Steve several time asking where he wanted it delivered & he (Chis) had to sit on the gold for those couple months because he (Chris) never got a responce from Steve as to where the gold should be delivered to - so is there a point at which the property (gold) becomes concidered abandond & rightfully owned by the shop (Chris) once the costumer (Steve) has been notified of the completion of the work.
> 
> I ask because my dad had an electric motor repair shop & he had a sign on the wall that said any repairs not picked up in 30 days of notified completion was subject to sale
> 
> ...


Kurt,

Many states have more than one category for abandoned property. One of the more common distinctions is that concerning tangible v. intangible property. Obviously, your father worked in tangible goods. The customer better pickup the goods within the time frame or your father might sell the item, rightfully or not. It would be up to the customer to show that the property still belonged to him because it was the stated policy of the shop. 

But intangible items are much different and usually involve money as the item. Whereas tangible goods are ordinarily left to the discretion of the business, the state takes an interest in the intangible items. It's a public policy determination. Why should someone profit at the loss of another? Think of the difference this way. When money has been left behind, it is nearly always the case that the work has been done and the money is the residual, or payment. But in cases like your father's, he has yet to be paid and when something is abandoned, his only recourse to get paid is to have the right to sell the item.

Now Utah sets a five year span before this gold would be abandoned. After five years has passed, Chris would have to submit the gold to the state so that the state could attempt to find the true owner. There's even paperwork involved that he would have to submit. And in the end, he'll never see the money. 

All in all, the laws will vary by state. It is definitely not safe to assume that your state, or country, will operate in the same manner.

Yes, extortion or blackmail, however you want to call it. Using a threat, veiled or not, to incur action, legal or not, is blackmail. And Steve's rate of interest was 100% (one gram per month= 12 grams per year). Utah would strike down any agreement with such a provision. Generally, Utah would only allow 10% interest.

Hope that helps,

Andy

What looks to be the seminal case in Utah


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## CBentre (Jun 24, 2013)

JHS said:


> "buyer beware" and "possession is nine tenths of the law".
> and with bankruptcy a big fat contract can be hung on the outhouse wall.
> we have no guarantees in life



We have no guarantees in life but life is what you make it. Everyday people have to pick sides, make tough decisions, educate themselves and stay competitive to keep up with the rest of the world. There are many intelligent people here who for some have made careers out of this thanks to the others around them. When things seem to be out of place whether it's safety issues or refineries stealing from clients or other members cheating people out of their life savings this is the place I would like to hear about it. This industry is and will continue to get harder no matter what happens but with the help of each other you have something that no one else has and that's an edge or a tool that you can use to to better your current situations. Sure people can read your post but I'm sure not every little secret is out there, if it was i'd have a company contacting me to process my boards instead of guys private messaging me trying to purchase my stuff. I personally feel that with the current market conditions being the way they are people are getting pressured to do things they never thought they would ever have to. A lot of resentment and ill-mannard attitudes. I asked a question the other day in a post "has anyone heard from noxx lately"? Not one reply and I find that a little strange. I hope the creater of this forum is doing ok and is not feeling the burdens that some of us sure are, myself Included. Anyways that's my rant, hope I haven't offended anyone if anything I hope you get the message we are not in this alone and surely we can weed out a few bad apples if people were to work together on it.


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## Palladium (Jun 25, 2013)

AndyWilliams said:


> Palladium said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not saying Chris is right, but i'm going to say his ethics or morals have ever given me reason for concern either.
> ...



It should read " but i'm going to say his ethics or morals have *never* given me reason for concern either.

Great video if you have the time :arrow: 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WBX6SACViI[/youtube]


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## kurt (Jun 25, 2013)

AndyWilliams said:


> Now Utah sets a five year span before this gold would be abandoned. After five years has passed, Chris would have to submit the gold to the state so that the state could attempt to find the true owner. There's even paperwork involved that he would have to submit. And in the end, he'll never see the money.



OK - so this would be true - IF - the material Steve sent had been that which Chris had agreed to process --- But it wasn't - it was in fact material (or at least a good portion of material) that Chris said he did not want

So from a legal standpoint we really get to go back to the send/recieve unsolicited material thing - in which case Steve GAVE the material away so Chris is really under no legal obligation to pay Steve anything

I just wasn't sure how abandond property would play in the picture

As for the blackmail -I guess If I found myself in this situation (as the one sent material to process) I would simply tell the sender of the material --- look buddy - you sent me stuff I did not want - I tried to do you a favor by processing it anyway - that cost me time & money --- & NOW you want not only 90% but my 10% plus interest & doing so under threat of action against me - OK then take that action - take me to court & I will settle then & only then.

Please understand that is what I would do NOT because of any "intent" to screw someone - but because my good nature does not make me a door mat nor is my kindness a weakness & if you think so - your wrong --- it all ends when someone thinks I am a door mat or my kindness is a weakness & they can take advantage of me

Kurt


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## joem (Jun 25, 2013)

It's not my business but in this day and age of cheap phone calls, pick up the phone and talk. work it out and get it done.


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## Geo (Jun 25, 2013)

getting into such fine details would lead to many thousands of variables. does Chris refine as a business? is a business license required for Chris operate? is it considered a hobby when you refine for profit? are hobbies regulated the same as a business? how much profit are you allowed before a hobby becomes a business? to ship gold bullion across state lines requires an export license not to mention national borders. is a hobbyist restricted by the regulations? is a hobbyist required to declare profit (if any) and pay export taxes? and on and on. when you refine for a friend, such legalities really doesnt matter (until something goes wrong). Chris would face some stiff penalties to send refined gold to Steve's current location (if it were discovered). department of homeland security and the patriot act have very defined requirements when gold is handled. gold is used to launder money for terrorist. in this world of global banking, its easier to ship gold to fund nefarious acts than it is cash. gold is as good as money and takes up less volume.


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## JHS (Jun 25, 2013)

Geo,
that's a lot to think about,and with that a lot more comes to mind.
thanks john


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## joem (Jun 25, 2013)

No one is going to care about a tiny bit of gold through the mail. It's done through ebay everyday. No one is going to sue or hide behind laws. It';s probably a small claims anyway. I see two good members making mistakes. Stop listening to all the cooks in the kitchen buck up and settle this. Don't make me come down there.


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## Palladium (Jun 25, 2013)

Well technically i think since Steve has a garnishment against him and now no longer resides in the country the gold belongs to the owner of the garnishment. :mrgreen: I don't think you can technically argue Steve's rights when by law the property is in forfeiture.


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## ericrm (Jun 25, 2013)

i would think too, that a researched criminal ,that fled to another contry to hide himself from the law and the poeple he stoled from, have loss some of his property right indeed


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## CBentre (Jun 25, 2013)

joem said:


> No one is going to care about a tiny bit of gold through the mail. It's done through ebay everyday. No one is going to sue or hide behind laws. It';s probably a small claims anyway. I see two good members making mistakes. Stop listening to all the cooks in the kitchen buck up and settle this. Don't make me come down there.




Hey Joe if you do decide to go down there can stop by here on your way? I could use some help sorting boards. hehe :lol:


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## joem (Jun 25, 2013)

CBentre said:


> joem said:
> 
> 
> > No one is going to care about a tiny bit of gold through the mail. It's done through ebay everyday. No one is going to sue or hide behind laws. It';s probably a small claims anyway. I see two good members making mistakes. Stop listening to all the cooks in the kitchen buck up and settle this. Don't make me come down there.
> ...




he he he lovin it


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## cnbarr (Jun 27, 2013)

Hey Andy, since your obviously an attorney, what would the legal ramifications be sending gold to a wanted felon that fled the country?


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## AndyWilliams (Jun 27, 2013)

cnbarr said:


> Hey Andy, since your obviously an attorney, what would the legal ramifications be sending gold to a wanted felon that fled the country?



There wouldn't be any ramifications, though I wouldn't advise doing that. At this point, and considering the character of your client, you need to ensure that you aren't open to any liability following delivery. The easiest, and most unlikely, scenario, is for Steve to take delivery in person and execute an agreement that he has received all proceeds due to him. Short of that, you are taking a risk that he will claim you haven't satisfied your debt to him and you will have no verifiable proof to prove otherwise.


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## RGJohn (Jul 9, 2013)

cnbarr said:


> Hello forum,
> 
> Well where to begin, like the title says, "toll refining mishap".
> 
> ...


######
Chris,
I make so many mistakes routinely that I am granted a special wholesale rate.
Otherwise I would be entirely destitute rather than just broke.
Luck,
John


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