# Palladium



## jimdoc

Does anybody know what other metal is in the Palladium/Plus school rings? I remember in 1981 when I graduated they were popular, but
I forget what the catalog said about them. I was wondering if they are
alloyed with ruthenium or iridium? Or maybe just rhodium plated?
I have about ten of them, and if they are ten percent ruthenium, that
would add up to a substantial amount with the price where it is now.

Also, would the gold cell work on palladium plated items? Would there need to be any special changes to do so?


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## lazersteve

I haven't tried the cell on any plated items other than gold. It does work on nickel plate, but the nickel goes into the solution (dissolves). I know this because it removes the nickel undercoat if you leave the plated items in the bath too long.

I'm working on a video of a different kind of cell that will work on karat gold and there is a variation of it for Pt and Pd.

I don't have any info about the rings you asked about.

Steve


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## jimdoc

Info for any of you guys that have too much time on your hands, and can handle 300lbs or more. I scrap old Hammond organs for the palladium wire. So far I have done 9, and have 18.5 dwt of pure palladium wire that comes off the buss bars, and alot of the contacts cut short but the wire on them is too small to remove so I just clip them as short as possible for later processing.
There are 9 contacts for every key, each have a small piece of palladium wire. The buss bars have a piece of pure palladium wire along the whole lenght and there is 8 of those for each set of keys. I average 2dwt or 1/10 of an ounce from these on M-2's M-3's and 3.5 dwt from an E-182.

It is some work to tear the organ apart, and being a mechanic, it may seam easier to me than to others, but I consider precious metals for free and a little bit of work a challenge. There is also 1/2 oz of silver contacts on the draw bars of some of the older organs, and other palladium or silver contacts on the foot pedal contacts and some other parts. There is also alot of brass and insulated wire that both bring $1 per lb. here.

One more organ will put me over an ounce of pure palladium, plus all the rest that needs to be processed. The nine I have already done were within a 3 month period, now there seams to be some difficulty in lining up number ten, but I have got as many as 3 in one week, so I plan on working on the 2 ounce mark by summers end.

I would be interested in hearing if anybody else tries this, and always looking for other items that have precious metals in them. Anybody else have any crazy sources of precious metals to be recovered?


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## lazersteve

Jimdoc,

Do you have any photos and specific organ models?

Great Stuff!

Steve


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## jimdoc

Steve,
I will get pictures of the wire and contacts. All the parts are gone, but next one I will get pictures of the parts. Any Hammond organ 1970 and older will have the palladium wire. I am not sure about later ones because they went to gold plated wire at some point. Mid 70's may still have palladium,
I haven't found any gold plated ones yet. I think Hammond's are the only ones with palladium, but I haven't checked any others, that is one of the things that Hammonds their unique sound.
Basically if you unbolt and remove the keypad sections they hold the best
stuff(the key contacts and the bussbars).
I see some of the amps from the organs going for $50 bucks and more on Ebay, but I haven't tried to sell any other parts. I am just after the metals.


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## jimdoc

Here is a picture from an Ebay ad that shows the contacts and bussbars.
If you look on the tips of the contacts, and the top of the "bussbars" you can see the palladium wire.


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## Noxx

Wow this picture is a way oversized... Could you please resize it ?
Thanks


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## lazersteve

I took care of it Noxx, after all I asked him for the photo. 

Jim,

How hard is it to remove the white fibers from the wires?


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## Fever

Great pic, and a very unique Palladium resource! Nice job!

Fever


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## jimdoc

Thanks for fixing the picture, I have to work on how to post a pic.
The wire with the white insulation is probably just copper. The palladium is along the edge of the "bussbars" and a small piece on the edge of each copper contact. If you look close ate the pics you can see it. 
I usually break the bussbar piece into foot long sections then peel the wire off of it. It has tiny spot welds every half inch and if you get it started right with the right pull you can get it off all in one piece. But sometimes the wire keeps breaking and only comes off a little at a time.
I still have to figure out how to process the tips of the contacts. You can see the end of the long copper contacts where it gets skinny, that is what I cut off, so there is more copper than palladium, and the newer organ contacts the tips are triangle points that leaves more copper.
Any idea how the best way to process those would be?


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## lazersteve

Dissolve the tips in nitric and drop the Pd with sodium chlorate.


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## jimdoc

Steve,
Thanks,thats what I figured, I just haven't tried it yet, I have just been
collecting them untill I get a bunch. Dimethylglyoxime should work the same right? I have that.


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## lazersteve

Yes, That's another one of the possible percipitants.


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## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> Steve,
> Thanks,thats what I figured, I just haven't tried it yet, I have just been
> collecting them untill I get a bunch. Dimethylglyoxime should work the same right? I have that.



While it's a great indicator for testing for palladium in solution, using it to for recovery will overwhelm you unless you're recovering only tiny amounts. Besides, it's a bitch to dissolve, so you waste a lot of time preparing the unneeded solution. The precipitant, which is canary yellow, is hugely voluminous. That's why it's such a good indicator. It's a lot better to use ammonium chloride and sodium chlorate. Fun to watch, too!

Got Hoke's book? He walks you through the process!

Harold


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## jimdoc

Harold,
Thanks, I will have to get some sodium chlorate, I was told that dmg drops palladium selectively, but if I know thats all there is with the copper then anything that works will do the trick.
Yes I have Hoke's book, and it may surprise you but "he" is a she not that that matters, because she really knows about precious metals.


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## Anonymous

jimdoc, 
DMG is easy to dissolve if one uses an appropriate solvent in place of water.

a man named Sue


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## jimdoc

Sue,
Thanks for the info. I have been waiting to process after I 
setup my fume hood. So far I have just been accumulating
lots of stuff, but spring is here and the now is the time to set
it up. I got a decent fume hood for $35 from a local auction
I just need to figure out where to set it up.


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## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> Yes I have Hoke's book, and it may surprise you but "he" is a she not that that matters, because she really knows about precious metals.



Funny! I've had the book since the early 70's and never picked up on the fact that the author was a "she". The pictures in the original issues have a picture of a gentleman holding a large evaporating dish, so I, naturally, drew a conclusion. Old habits are hard to break, it appears!

Thanks for the correction, which is the second one I've received in that regard. Now to try to remember!

What I really need to do is dig out the box of refining texts that I have in storage and refresh my memory on this entire topic. It's been years since I got my hands dirty----and almost as many since I last laid eyes on my books. They were boxed in '96, and are still boxed. Sigh!  

Harold


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## jimdoc

Harold,
Yeah her name is never mentioned, just the initials, but it says her father was Sam W. Hoke a pioneer in the technology of platinum. The picture was probably of him. I found that she was a she in the book Testing Precious Metals not the one on refining wastes.


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## goldsilverpro

Her father invented the Hoke torch, the first jeweler's torch that would melt platinum. I believe they use lime melting dishes. You can still buy the Hoke torch from jeweler's suppliers. I have an old photocopy of Hoke's, "Testing Precious Metals". One of these days, I want to get a bound copy. I see them every once in awhile on the web.


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## goldsilverpro

jimdoc,

In the late '70's, I ran a bunch of Balfour class rings called, QPal. The Q stood for quarter or, 25% palladium. They were made for people that couldn't afford gold. They were very hard. I would guess that the other metals were copper and nickel, similar to the clad coinage. The ones you have are very likely the same alloy.


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## goldsilverpro

I found this on eBay. According to this guy, Palladium Plus is 25% palladium and 75% sterling silver. I was half right. It seems that the silver was the "Plus." 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ryder-Truck-Safe-Driver-Ring_W0QQitemZ110099149356QQihZ001QQcategoryZ10963QQcmdZViewItem


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## jimdoc

25% palladium 75% silver is known as precium. That guy in the Ebay ad states they are palladium plus quality, he doesn't say they are stamped
Palladium/Plus. That ring is more like Precium quality or alloy.
I forget what company made the Palladium/Plus rings, but I looked through the catalog when I was in school and never ordered a ring because that is when gold was at record highs. I had never heard of palladium, or what they said was alloyed with to make it Palladium/Plus. I will use some nitric and find out for myself and let everybody here know what my results are in the near future. Thanks


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## lazersteve

I just found this ended auction for a Pallidium Plus stamped ring, 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190080672973

It definitely LOOKS to be of a different material make up than the one previously mentioned by Chris.

Steve


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## jimdoc

Steve,
I got outbid on that one. 
I think they are at least 90-95% palladium
and either ruthenium or silver alloyed or rhodium
plated. I just can't find any info on Palladium/Plus.
Here is a link from Stillwater on palladium;
http://www.stillwaterpalladium.com/jewelry.html


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## lazersteve

It seems this must be some sort of tradmarked name. Perhaps the us patent office or trade mark office could help? Do you have any info on the manufacturer (hallmark symbol) ?
Steve


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## jimdoc

No hallmark, just the Palladium/Plus stamping that you can see
in that auction. I also have one marked P+ that I think is the same
material. I think that one has a co. name.
The catalog we looked through in high school was from a big co.
like Jostens but I am not sure. I have searched everywhere for
info on P/P but can't find it. I guess there is only one way to
determine the composition for sure, use some nitric.


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## AgAuPtRh

here's a link for an interview with some palladium manufacturers 


http://www.dellsfinejewelry.com/palladium.

There is also some good info with the Bureau of Standards. I lost the page when my network blinked. 

Steve K


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## jimdoc

Has anybody ever processed the multi layer ceramic capacitors for the palladium? and if so is there a way to determine the better ones?
I have seen Steve's writings and pictures on the monolith's and have a bunch of them to process, but I have a bucket full of the larger ceramic
ones, and I am curious about those as to why they haven't been mentioned here. I plan on experimenting with them soon, but recomendations and tips are always a help in going in the right direction.
Thanks. Jim


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## goldsilverpro

To get the palladium out of the monolithic capacitors, I have an idea. I presently have no way of trying it and wonder if someone else could. Here's the ones I mean. We always called them chip capacitors.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=51&start=30

As I understand it, the way they are made is to coat very thin layers of ceramic with a palladium thick film paste. The layers are dried, sandwiched, and fired. If the paste is the same as other PM thick film pastes, it contains a 5% glass frit. I believe the ceramic also contains a glass frit. When fired, the glass melts and bonds everything together.

The terminology I use for many parts is much different than the official names. There is a very common part I call ceramic cerdips (I know that's redundant). They are nearly black and are seen in various sizes. They are made with 2 rows of leads and with 2 ceramic layers bonded together with glass. We used to break them apart by heating them to about 800 deg F and then quenching them in water. This shattered the glass and they just fell apart. We then tumbled them together, by themselves, in a cement mixer and separated the kovar with a magnet. We then dissolved the gold from the pad on the ceramic with aqua regia.

The capacitors are also held together with glass, I think, and I wonder that, if they were heated and quenched, would they fall apart? Or, at least, be weakened enough so they could be more easily crushed or mashed or ground or tumbled to separate and expose all the layers. It might be best to remove the solder first before heating. The molten solder could cause a mess. If this is silver, as it was on most of these that I've played with, nitric acid would work. However, if they're silver, the melting point may be above 800 deg F. and they wouldn't need stripping. Maybe not, though. If lead/tin, I think a hot, dilute (about 7/1) muriatic would work. 

To get to the palladium, the layers must all be exposed. This can be done, as is, by fine grinding. However, to expose all of the Pd layers, in this manner, isn't that easy. 

Once all the layers are exposed, in whatever manner, the Pd could simply be dissolved in nitric. If nitric was first used to dissolve the silver solder, it should also contain a little Pd.

It would be a simple matter to try this out. Maybe, 800 F isn't the best temp. Also, the ceramic is an good insulator and will have to be heated for a period of time to get hot all the way through. Please let me know what happens.


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## jimdoc

I have finally started to mess with the palladium contacts from the Hammond organs I have been dissecting. I put the tips in 65% nitric
and it ate up the copper but not the palladium wire. This happened in
my smaller scale test also, but I was using 14K testing acid that is kind
of old, so I figured it may have been because of that.
My question is; Shouldn't the palladium wire have been dissolved also?
I still have it sitting now, waiting to see. I didn't use any heat because the acid really heated it up on its own. Getting rid of the copper is good, and was my first concern, but in wanting to refine the palladium also I was looking for that to go into solution also. Would using urea to neutralize the nitric work, before testing the solution for any palladium in it.
I was wondering if maybe the palladium wire was alloyed with any platinum that would make it not dissolve in nitric? Hammond ads that I have seen state the wires are "pure palladium" that is what got my interest in scrapping them for the metal, but maybe they alloy it for extra durability? 
I finally got my tenth organ and was hoping to have over 20 dwt from the buss bar wires, but ended up with 19.1 dwt plus whatever I get from the trimmed off contacts since the last organ I got was another S-6 with only one small row of keys. Thanks. Jim


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## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> Shouldn't the palladium wire have been dissolved also?



Yes, but not as quickly as copper or copper alloys. If you have a low acid content, the dissolved palladium will precipitate on the remaining copper (or copper alloy) as a black powder, so it's possible you did dissolve some, and it was left behind. If your solution went from green to blue, that's a good sign it happened. Be certain to check your solutions before discarding if they're not sky blue. Even then, check for traces of silver and other values, but don't expect much. 



> Getting rid of the copper is good, and was my first concern, but in wanting to refine the palladium



Right. In order to precipitate clean palladium, you need to eliminate as much of the base metal as is possible. The alternative it to calcine the salt, then reprocess. It can also be dissolved with ammonium hydroxide and re-precipitated with HCL---but I wasn't too thrilled with that process, so I did it only once. The salt, which is a deep red in color, precipitates as a yellow powder by this process. Given enough time, I'll post a picture of some palladium, salts, and calcined salts eventually. Just have to get around to it. Haven't taken the picture yet. 

So then, take advantage of what I said, above. Dissolve maybe half the copper, then stop. Allow the solution to sit long enough for the dissolved palladium to precipitate on the remaining copper. As it does so, it will dissolve some of the copper. When the solution tests barren, discard the solution and start with a fresh batch of acid. Not too much, just enough to dissolve more of the copper, without dissolving all of it. Repeat the previous operation. Do this until the remaining copper is very scant-----then dissolve the palladium, filter, and recover with ammonium chloride and sodium chlorate. It's done hot, not cold. Be careful to not lose the black powder when you decant the solution each time. Use a short length of vinyl hose, pre-filled with water and capped with your fingers. It works great, and you can control the flow by the difference in height of the discharge and intake of the hose. 



> I was wondering if maybe the palladium wire was alloyed with any platinum that would make it not dissolve in nitric? Hammond ads that I have seen state the wires are "pure palladium" that is what got my interest in scrapping them for the metal, but maybe they alloy it for extra durability?



I doubt that they wouldn't mention the platinum if it was included. Palladium doesn't dissolve as easily as copper, but the addition of a little HCL changes all that. It readily dissolves in AR. 

Harold


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## jimdoc

Harold,
Thanks for your answer. I am running out the door to go down the shore
and catch a concert, so I will check everything out when I get back. I saved all the solution, and the palladium wire from the tips all seemed
intact minus the copper it was attached to, but I think some must have gone into solution. I got 6 grams from about 2 ounces of tips, half of the tips had alot of copper because they were the newer type contacts that
weren't as skinny where the contact wire was. I plan on using this 6 grams
to experiment with getting into solution, and when I get it right I will do the rest of my wire and make an ingot or bar. Do you have any tips for that? I have read about palladium absorbing oxygen,sounds like I should stick with gold to learn casting first?
Thanks. Jim


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## goldsilverpro

If they were pure palladium, you could have dissolved the copper away from them with HCl. Hot HCl will also dissolve any nickel backing on the points. Check the points with a magnet to make sure all the nickel is gone. This way, you would end with pure Pd without dissolving any of it.


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## jimdoc

GSP,
I think the nitric worked jsut like you said the HCI should, I ended up with the contacts, which are just small snips of palladium wire tack welded to the copper. I thought it would all go into solution, but it didn't and if I knew that I would have saved the nitric. There should be no nickel, because of the 'wire' contacts. There are other bigger contacts that look like typical contacts from in the organ also I have to check, if they are palladium they should add up, but they may have nickel in them.
Jim


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## goldsilverpro

I've run a lot of old telephone wire relays that have pure palladium points. They look like they're made with very short lengths of thin wire, with flattened surfaces. Every pure Pd point I've seen looks like this. It sounds like your points are similar. We selectively dissolved the copper with hot concentrated sulfuric acid plus chromic acid and thought that only pure palladium remained. We tried nitric first, both hot and cold, but it always dissolved a little palladium. 

The first time we sold them, about 100 ounces, the buyer dumped them out on the table to look at them. He saw a small metal staple in the pile and grabbed a magnet to remove it. When he removed the magnet, it picked up a huge clump of points. An unpleasant surprise. We looked through a microscope and discovered that there was a thin magnetic nickel backing on the points, although you couldn't see it with the naked eye. We removed the nickel with hot concentrated HCl. Check them with a magnet.

From my experience, I would bet that you dissolved some Pd in the nitric, especially if you totally dissolved all the copper. Due to their relative positions in the electromotive series, copper will tend to dissolve before palladium. However, when the copper is almost gone, the palladium will start dissolving. After all, the standard solvent for palladium is nitric acid.

Use stannous chloride to test for palladium in a drop or two of the solution. If palladium is present, it will produce a brown-yellow color.

Anytime you have pure solid palladium (or any other pure solid platinum group metal), you should avoid dissolving it, since it will be very, very difficult to get it pure again. Try to select a solvent(s) that will dissolve everything but the palladium.

One time, we ran a 50,000 pound (including the plastic relay cases) batch of these telephone wire relays. They ended up being worth about a dollar per pound, since palladium was worth only about $60 per ounce at the time. Today, they would be worth about $6 per pound.


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## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> GSP,
> I think the nitric worked jsut like you said the HCI should



The difference is HCL won't dissolve palladium. It will, however, dissolve palladium oxide, so regardless of the choice made when removing base metals, you should check your solution for values. 

Harold


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## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> I plan on using this 6 grams to experiment with getting into solution, and when I get it right I will do the rest of my wire and make an ingot or bar. Do you have any tips for that? I have read about palladium absorbing oxygen,sounds like I should stick with gold to learn casting first?
> Thanks. Jim



I've commented on this before, but to this point it hasn't been an issue. 

Understand that the platinum group is very unlike gold in that it will NOT precipitate well, if at all, from dilute solutions. Even then, it often will not precipitate completely, so your processed solution will still test positive. You may have to recover the traces on scrap metal and include the black powder in a future batch. 

To precipitate, you'll want your solutions as concentrated as is convenient. If you've not done any of this before, I strongly recommend you read Hoke on the recovery of palladium. 

I didn't melt much of my palladium, although I melted enough to know how it reacts. I simply calcined the salts to sponge, and stored the sponge. 

Palladium, unlike platinum, reacts with oxygen readily. You'll see that when you calcine your palladium salts. They end up covered with the most beautiful peacock colors of green, blue and red. Hoke suggested that a fast wash with alcohol prior to melting would reduce the oxides, which I tried. It wasn't real obvious that it was effective, but I achieved respectable results in melting to a button. 

I simply torch melted what few times I did anything with the palladium sponge. I allowed the button to form in a melting dish and removed it after cooling enough to set, but before the partially melted dish glued the button down. The button was then pickled with acid to clean it well. to be perfectly frank, I do not recall what acid I used, but for platinum, HFL was used, in a platinum container. It should be avoided like the plague by those that are not well versed with handling acids----it's a killer. 

Aside from one tiny button that I will, hopefully, include in a future picture of the various states of palladium, I no longer have any of the buttons, and only a small vial of the sponge. It was all sold some time ago when palladium went up in value. 

I recommend you do not try to learn about casting ingots with palladium. For one, you're not likely to encounter enough of it to gain much experience, and it melts at, roughly, 850° higher temperature than gold does (I'm trusting memory here, so I could be off a little). It's not pleasant to melt, unlike gold. You might consider simply creating buttons, as I did. It's the course of least resistance, and adequate. I'd suggest you investigate the high temperature melting dishes provided for the jewelry industry for melting the Pt group. Those nice little clay dishes I recommend for gold aren't an acceptable choice because of the high temperature involved. 

Harold


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## jimdoc

Thanks GSP and Harold, I appreciate the info. The solution was bluish green so it should have palladium in there. I will find out when I get home.
I will be happy with a bottle of sponge also, untill I get enough material and experience with what I am doing.
Jim


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## goldsilverpro

The palladium produces a beautiful red-orange color in nitric. The palladium color is masked by the dark copper color.


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## lazersteve

GSP said:


> The palladium produces a beautiful red-orange color in nitric.



Should the color be the same in other acids? I have dissolved some monolithic caps (aka cerdips) using acid peroxide and the solution is red-orange.

Steve


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## goldsilverpro

A friend of mine that owns probably the biggest jewelry refinery in L.A. (We've talked about his company of this forum), told me to first drop the platinum with ammonium chloride and then make the solution alkaline with ammonia. He said that the palladium, in an ammoniacal solution, would drop with the ammonium chloride also. No need for dimethyl gloxime (I hate that stuff).

Have you ever tried this, Harold? It sounds easier than most other methods. Recently, I read of a similar pH switch method, for Pt and Pd, on the internet, but I think they used a different reductant.

A large refinery I worked for dissolved the Pt group in a tube furnace using chlorine gas.

There's a super chemical called sodium borohydride that will drop about just about any metal out of about any solution. For example, a pound of this stuff will drop out 8 pounds of silver, as silver metal. I imagine it will drop Pt group. I'll look it up.

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat when refining Pt group metals. 

There's probably not over 10 or 20 good Pt group refiners in the country. Platinum group is easy to recover, difficult to separate, and a bitch to purify. A person that mastered this could make a bunch of money.


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## goldsilverpro

Steve, 

Very interesting. There's nickel, iron, and cobalt in the Kovar. There's maybe gold and maybe silver (chip attachment). That's about it for metals. Cobalt nitrate is red. Nickel is green and iron is from yellow to brown. I sure would think that the nickel and iron would mask the cobalt and the solution would just be dark looking. I can't imagine using platinum group on these cheap parts. Some of them don't have any PM's. They even use epoxy for die attach on some of them.


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## aflacglobal

Interesting. Sound like my next project. 

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat  :shock: :shock: :shock: 

Why did it have to be a cat. :?: :lol: :lol:


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## goldsilverpro

Ralph. I think I like this avatar the best. It doesn't move around as much. I'm looking for a picture of a good pointed alchemist's hat. If you see one, let me know.


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## Harold_V

goldsilverpro said:


> Have you ever tried this, Harold? It sounds easier than most other methods. Recently, I read of a similar pH switch method, for Pt and Pd, on the internet, but I think they used a different reductant.



Aside from trying a re-refine by dissolving the palladium salt in ammonia and precipitating with HCL, no, I never tried anything aside from ammonium chloride and sodium chlorate. While I accumulated about 75 ounces of palladium, it was over a long period of time. with the great majority of it coming from dental alloys. The only time I actually got any in volume was when, like you, I got my hands on a lot of those contacts from telephone stepping switches. I ran them with nitric, not being concerned about dissolving a small amount of the palladium because I knew I'd recover it in the future (which I did). 



> I found that mono hydrazine sulfate dropped the gold without having to tie up the excess nitric. I was told by the manufacturer of the chemical that it was also used for Pt and Pd. I've also heard the same thing from other sources but I haven't really tried to search it out yet.
> 
> Have any of you heard of this method? What about you, Harold or Hyderconsulting?



It's not anything I've heard about, but one thing is certain. If you goal is to precipitate a specific metal, it doesn't sound promising if you handle alloys. Dental alloys, for example, and often jewelry alloys come mixed. If, on the other hand, all you're trying to do is separate the base metals from all high value metals, it would work like a champ, or so it seems. 



> There's a lot of ways to skin a cat when refining Pt group metals.



While I'm inclined to agree, just as is usually the case, there is usually one method that stands out above all others. The home type refiner may not have the ability to use a specific process for various reasons, so it does no harm to know and understand how the majority of them work, so an informed decision can be made. 

When I acquired the loose-leaf that covered the symposium on refining (March 10-13, 1981, in California), I received two books. One of them (I don't recall which one) details a process for precipitating the base metals, leaving the Pt group metals in solution. That would appear to me to be one of the best possible processes in that once the base metals are removed, you'd expect a much cleaner salt. The salts from the Pt group metals are difficult to wash without dissolving. I never attempted the process because I was too busy keeping up, and the Pt group metals, to me, were more of a toy with which I'd play when necessary. 



> There's probably not over 10 or 20 good Pt group refiners in the country. Platinum group is easy to recover, difficult to separate, and a bitch to purify. A person that mastered this could make a bunch of money.



That group of metals has earned its reputation for being difficult to separate. My experience dictates that you almost always get a trace of one in the other. 

Selling the Pt group metals can be interesting. I found those with which I did business to be very dishonest. Said another way, I got screwed. They're not content to make their percentage, they steal at least ten percent more. Depends on the refiner. I had one VERY good experience with Pease & Curren. I sold platinum to them years ago----the check came within $6 of my calculation. Years later I didn't enjoy the same luck with them and feel I was cheated. They, too, just have felt some remorse, because I received a second payment to offset the shortcoming I received with the first payment. The loss was reduced, but not eliminated. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro

Harold,

You know as well as I do that it's expensive to refine Pt group metals, especially for a big company. I think many quote too low charges in order to compete with everybody else that's quoting too low charges. They would have to steal just to break even. Also, they know that most people don't really know what they have, because the stuff is so damned hard to assay. They count your money for you. Also, they might pay you good the first time just to get your business and because you may have split the lot to two different refiners.


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## lazersteve

GSP said:


> Steve,
> 
> Very interesting. There's nickel, iron, and cobalt in the Kovar. There's maybe gold and maybe silver (chip attachment). That's about it for metals. Cobalt nitrate is red. Nickel is green and iron is from yellow to brown. I sure would think that the nickel and iron would mask the cobalt and the solution would just be dark looking. I can't imagine using platinum group on these cheap parts. Some of them don't have any PM's. They even use epoxy for die attach on some of them.



Sorry for the confusion, I guess your term cerdips is for cermaic disc caps. I'm referring to the super small chip capacitors known as monolithics. I'm pretty sure they don't have any cobalt or kovar in them. According to the manufacturers datasheet they are ceramic layers with sputtered gold, silver, nickel, palladium, and platinum depending on which type you get your hands on. 

My question is about the monolithics not the ceramic disc types.

Steve


----------



## goldsilverpro

Here's the "cerdips" I was talking about - fourth item down. Doesn't the "dip" in cerdip mean dual inline package?


----------



## lazersteve

GSP,

I've never heard the term 'cerdips' until you used it in a previous post. In that post we were discussing monolithic capacitors like these:







I assumed that's how you were referring to them then, so I reused your term 'cerdips' to indicate the monolithics. Obviously we are not talking about the same critters. My question is concerning those pictured above.



GSP said:


> Doesn't the "dip" in cerdip mean dual inline package?



Yes DIP refers to Dual in line package, typically when more than one unit is in an array configuration or plastic/ceramic ic pak like these items:






and Array configurations like this:






If it is a single component and only has a single contact on each end then it is referred to as the 'axial' configuration.


Steve


----------



## goldsilverpro

I forgot to add the link. Fourth item down. These are what I've always called cerdips.

http://www.chelseatech.com/packages.htm

I'm always confused with your nomenclature. I'm sure you're correct. I just learned things from the package type rather than what was in the package. 

I probably have more knowledge about sidebraze packages than any other type - the bottom item on the same above link. I owned a couple of companies, based on an invention of mine, that reconditioned rejected sidebraze packages for companies like Intel, AMD, AMS, etc. We removed the lid and chip, selectively stripped all the gold plate and gold braze, and then replated them. We literally processed millions of them. These companies then treated them as new packages. Their statistical yields were actually higher on the reconditioned packages than on new ones.


----------



## lazersteve

GSP,

Those packages are typically designed to house ic dies like in the picture you posted. I've never seen capacitiors in them, but that doesn't mean they weren't made that way at one point or another. You're right I'm used to identifying the component by the parts that are in the package, but packaging usually indicates what's inside to a degree.

Now that we are on the same page, do you think the acid peroxide method will display the same orange color you mentioned? I have a lot of this colored liquid from dissolving monolithics. I'm curious if the orange color indicates palladium in this situation also?

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## goldsilverpro

I understand the question now. This is very interesting. Palladium does form a chloride, which is red. To dissolve any metal, you need 2 things - an oxidizing agent and an anion that will combine with the metal to form a compound or a complex. With the acid peroxide method, you have both things needed to dissolve palladium. I know of nothing else in the monolithic capacitors that would produce this color. I might mention that it takes very little dissolved Pd to produce this color. Test your solutions with stannous chloride. You're looking for yellow-brown.


----------



## Harold_V

The most sensitive test for palladium is dimethylglyoxime. The slightest trace produces a canary yellow precipitate that's difficult to miss. It can be used to precipitate palladium from solution to recover palladium, but the volume of salt created is so large that it becomes troublesome as a recovery procedure. I'm suggesting this because there are times when you have a mixed solution and it becomes difficult to distinguish palladium from gold, particularly if both are present. Palladium does have a different reaction than gold, although it can be similar. Gold will leave a purple stain, but if they are both present, you may not know that you have palladium included. That was common when processing dental alloys. 

Thanks to Hoke, I kept a dropping bottle of DMG at the ready at all times. It was useful not only for testing for palladium, but it's also an excellent indicator of the presence of nickel in solution. A drop of ammonium hydroxide in a blue solution, followed by a drop of DMG will turn the solution pink if nickel is present.

Harold


----------



## lazersteve

GSP,

Here's the test results on the liquid...






Looks like gold mixed with palladium maybe, what do you think?

Steve


----------



## austexjwlry

There are freestanding plastic dipped caps. on T.V.& monitor etc. type boards I googled them to come up with pictures and specs.Some appear to have to have 3 legs with 3 humps in their almost flat rectangular bodies. I clip them at the same time as silver caps.I believe you might consider them the analog version of the ones your talking about. 
I made a post in the general chat room about palladium caps and silver dipped caps where it does'nt belong. How would I undo my mistake?
Thank you all for your patience with a newbie.

Wayne


----------



## lazersteve

Wayne,

I moved it for you.

I think the caps you are taking about are called polystyrene and polyester film capacitors. They are usually dark green colored with two legs. Here's a photo of the polyesters:

[img::]http://www.goldrecovery.us/images/polyester.jpg[/img]

Here's a picture of an older dipped silver mica:

[img::]http://www.goldrecovery.us/images/mica.jpg[/img]

Steve


----------



## goldsilverpro

Looks like Pd and Au to me, Steve.


----------



## austexjwlry

I found lots of specs. at www.globalspec.com. Go to their homepage, then go into site map at bottom of page. Then search for pallidium flat cable etc. Very interesting info.,hope I'm not duplicating info. you already have.
There are also audio cables etc. with palladium , rhodium alloys. 
Found stamp desiginations to help identify wires & cables at this site also.

Wayne


----------



## jimdoc

Has anybody had any luck getting palladium from these
type of capacitors? I would think they would have more
metal in them than the smaller monolithic type. Jim


----------



## jimdoc

Here is a picture of the palladium wire I have gotten out
of Hammond organs. The glass vial has 21.1 dwt, that is
the easiest to get off the bussbars, it is all pushed down
into the vial.
And the plastic coin tube has the little pieces of wire that 
are on the copper contacts that I used acid to get rid of 
the copper, I forget the weight of that clump of contacts.

Would mapp gas without oxygen be enough to melt this
into a button? I was going to try it with the clump of contacts, 
but if I would be wasting gas I would rather not do so.
Thanks. Jim


----------



## jimdoc

Here are five eproms from a newer organ that I got
with an older one, so even newer non-tube ones may 
have interesting stuff in them as well on the boards.
I will probably just save these because there isn't
that much gold in them. They are AMI chips probably
not worth anything now, but people seem to collect
chips big time, I have seen some on Ebay were they
are asking $999 and $1299 for one chip.
Jim


----------



## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> Would mapp gas without oxygen be enough to melt this
> into a button? I was going to try it with the clump of contacts,
> but if I would be wasting gas I would rather not do so.
> Thanks. Jim



In my opinion, you won't even come close unless you use oxygen. Palladium melts at roughly 2,830° F, so it's not fun or easy to melt. Using an oxy/natural gas Hoke torch, you can comfortably melt a button that runs better than an ounce in size, but much more tends to become somewhat troublesome. 

If you melt palladium, be certain to wear proper eye protection against the intense light. 

Harold


----------



## jimdoc

Harold,
Thanks for the answers. I figured it would
be tough if possible, but I will wait untill I
get set up to do it properly. I need to get
the proper goggles also, so I will have to wait.
I have the Hoke torch, just need to set it up.

Also I have a Hoke torch that says it is for 
oxygen and artificial gas, would that be for
mapp gas and oxygen? If so would that be
hotter than the natural gas and oxygen?
Thanks Jim


----------



## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> I have a Hoke torch that says it is for oxygen and artificial gas, would that be for mapp gas and oxygen? If so would that be
> hotter than the natural gas and oxygen?
> Thanks Jim



I don't know that I could answer that, not having a clue what is considered artificial gas----but adding oxygen to any of the fuels really improves their performance. I'm of the opinion that it will work well, but it's just a gut feeling. It took some getting used to using natural gas instead of acetylene, which tends to be the hottest fuel-----but once you get used to it, it's actually quite nice. Much cleaner. 

I melted enough platinum sponge to yield a button that weighed over a troy ounce. I used the Hoke torch (a large rosebud type, not the small Hoke torch jewelers use) with natural gas, as I already mentioned, and found that the torch was just barely able to melt the button. The problem you have is that heat dissipates faster than you can add it, so it's hard to keep the entire button in a liquid state. Hard, but not impossible. I would imagine that a button of 2 ounces would border on impossible. Of course, platinum melts at roughly 400° higher temperature than does palladium, which makes a difference. Do keep in mind that an ounce of palladium is about twice the size of an ounce of platinum. 

Harold


----------



## jimdoc

Harold,
Thanks. I want to try and stay away from acetylene because
of the soot and impurities. On the Ganoskin site they show 
melting platinum with a hydrogen torch. I would like to just
get a furnace to deal with the pgm's and maybe do assays.

I don't know why they use the term artificial gas and not
explain what that is, I was thinking it must be mapp, but I 
am not sure. I guess I need to check at my local gas distributer
or do a google search. I will probably try out the natural gas
and oxygen, as that should be the cheapest way to go.
Every time I get some cash I think I can spend on some 
supplies, it dissappears somewhere else. Jim


----------



## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> Harold,
> Thanks. I want to try and stay away from acetylene because
> of the soot and impurities. On the Ganoskin site they show
> melting platinum with a hydrogen torch.



A hydrogen torch is recommended for melting the platinum group because it's known to form carbides from a smoky torch. You can buy a hydrogen torch from jewelry supply houses, but it's very small, not nearly large enough for a guy that refines. I have no clue where you might obtain one otherwise. 



> I would like to just get a furnace to deal with the pgm's and maybe do assays.



That's noble as anything I've ever heard, but I don't think you understand what you just said. 

Do you have any idea of the limitations of the typical furnace? The typical crucible furnace is borderline capable of melting gray iron, which melts well below the melting point of palladium. Many of them can't achieve a temperature high enough to melt iron, so you have no chance of melting the platinum group. Besides, it's the wrong direction for you to be thinking. You'll never have enough platinum at one time for it to be of concern, and if you happen to, you'll be able to afford what you really need for melting, which is an induction furnace. 

You have lots of problems when melting platinum. It melts at about the same temperature as silicon----so even fused quartz dishes are marginal and tend to liquefy when you melt platinum in them. I used to use HFL to pickle my platinum buttons, working in a fume hood, in a platinum crucible. You have to remove the button instantly from the dish, otherwise it gets encapsulated in melted dish. 

There are small induction furnaces on the market---but you can expect to spend upwards of $6,000 for one, which will likely limit you to melting about an ounce at a time. Larger furnace----more bucks. They are unlimited in making heat, and would self destruct were it not for the water cooling they must use when in operation. You can easily melt platinum with one, which is trying with a torch. You will have no success with a fuel fired furnace. 



> I will probably try out the natural gas
> and oxygen, as that should be the cheapest way to go.



I really liked the lack of smoke (think acetylene) and convenience of not having to change bottles. My lab was on the second level of the castle, but my oxygen and SO2 were on the main level, piped upstairs. I used the largest size of oxygen bottle available without going to LOX, so I'd usually run for about ten days per bottle. My torch got used daily, with rare exception. 

Buy a spare tip, which you'll use only for melting pure gold. You can keep it clean, so it won't contaminate the gold when you melt it. The tip, when you inquart, gets really funky. 



> Every time I get some cash I think I can spend on some
> supplies, it dissappears somewhere else. Jim



That gets better as time goes on, Jim. At first you need everything. My refining venture grew over a period of years, so it was relatively painless. It grew on its own------I just tried to keep up with it. 

I'm working on a response to another of your posts. It may not get finished tonight. Lots of things to say-----hopefully that are helpful. 

Yeah, I talk a lot!  

Harold


----------



## jimdoc

Harold,
Yeah, sometimes I forget what things cost.
There was a furnace at the SAS auction that
I go to that went up to 3500F that I bid on.
The problem is they don't tell you what stuff
goes for, it is silent bid and they contact you
if you win. I guess from what you said it was
probably an induction furnace and probably
went for a few thousand dollars. There are 
commercial equipment dealers that probably
buy that stuff up, knowing that they have 
buyers. I probably would have no chance of
getting something like that for a few hundred,
but I keep hoping.They are always auctioning 
off stuff from big drug companies and have lab 
stuff alot of times. Even if I was to find a furnace
cheap over there capable of melting PGM's I
would hope it worked right. You are right I need
to stick with the torch, especially starting out and
being poor, and not going to have enough PGM's
to melt anyway, unless I get the catalytic converter
setup together.
Thanks. Jim


----------



## jimdoc

Just got a Hammond CV today, a large console
model like a C-3. I got 5.4 dwt palladium wire 
off the buss bars. This one had four bussbars
and contacts along the bottom of the organ, and
two rows of nine bussbars for the keys, they 
are longer because of 61 keys on each set of
keys, as compared to 44 on the more common
M-3's. This organ was over a quarter ounce of
palladium,not counting the smaller contacts that 
need to be processed somehow. Also the silver on 
the drawbars is probably close to an ounce on this
model, as it is twice as wide as on an M-3, and they
have 1/2 ounce of silver.
This is the best one I have done so far, it was made
between 1945-49, and was really beat up, or it would
have been worth a few hundred if it was nice.
That makes 26.5+ dwt of palladium from 12 organs,
and the first one I did was last Ocober. I am going for 
2 ounces before next October, if the organs keep coming
my way from freecycle,craigslist,etc....
Jim


----------



## Palladium

8)


----------



## pinman

i took apart an m103 and was wondering if the wire in my picture is palladium? it didnt have the insulation that is shown in jimdocs picture on page 1, but it did seem like there was some sort of "painted on" insulation.


----------



## jimdoc

There is a very small bit of palladium wire spot welded on the tips of those copper contacts in your picture. The bussbar that these contacts make contact with will have a palladium wire spot welded accross the whole length of the bussbar. It is about the same thickness or a little thicker than the contact wire. The other wire in the organ will just be copper as far as I know. There will be more palladium contacts in the foot pedals also, but the most is on the bussbars. I think you should come up with 2 dwt of palladium or so from a M-103.
Jim


----------



## pinman

thanks jim. started stripping it off of the bus bars with a small swiss army its quite the pain. it is nice when it comes off in one or two long pieces though.


----------



## jimdoc

The trick is to not use too much pressure to get the spot weld to pop off. I have had a whole bussbar come off in one piece. And then I have had some that break off at every weld. You get the hang of it after you do a bunch. I have been using a good pair of tweezers to get the wire off, and I have a magnified light to help me see it better to get a grip on the wire.
Jim


----------



## pinman

nice, it almost always seems to pop off at the 90 next to the solder. after 9 bus bars i have 1.7 grams. ill post what i get off the rest later.


----------



## pinman

i soaked some of the copper bits in ap to try to remove the wire contacts. i left it for a week or so and everything is dissolved. does palladium disolve in ap?


----------



## Harold_V

pinman said:


> i soaked some of the copper bits in ap to try to remove the wire contacts. i left it for a week or so and everything is dissolved. does palladium disolve in ap?


A simple test with either DMG or stannous chloride will answer your question. 

Harold


----------



## Platdigger

I know platinum will go into AP. I have done it.
I would think pd would go in even easier.


----------



## Palladium

:arrow: http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2974&start=20


Irons said:


> arthur kierski said:
> 
> 
> 
> peroxide +hcl dissolves gold, pt and pd ---i do it almost daily
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Pd will dissolve in H2S04, HCl and Nitric. If there's enough Pd, it will generate Cl on its own by stripping the Hydrogen from HCl and that will dissolve almost anything in time.
> 
> 
> Every source of material is different and each case has to be examined on an individual basis. Working with ores is totally different than working with the metals in refined form.
Click to expand...


:arrow: Palladium has a great affinity for hydrogen, being able to absorb 900 times its own volume of the gas.


----------



## butcher

Palladium,thanks for puting two and two together for me, I read that in the wikipedia for Pd, but it actual did not chemically register in my brain. :idea:


----------



## Palladium

According to what I’ve been reading when heated the metal changes it's chemical structure forcing the hydrogen atoms out through a tunneling effect. Sort of opening it up like a sponge. Upon cooling the crystal structures try to realign and draw the hydrogen atom back into structure. This is when you get the most reaction from the chlorine. If you just heated the solution of hcl the palladium would actually force the hydrogen atoms out and then the hydrogen atom can't be stripped from the chlorine anymore once you reach a point in heating. It stalls.

So i guess to get the fastest reaction you could heat the palladium in hcl and then allow it to cool Doing this in a cycle. ( No Peroxide ). The reaction is at the metal surface so the hydrogen atom is absorbed and the chlorine atom takes to the Palladium. Reaction complete. I don't think the peroxide would do anything. I think that's the way i am reading this ?

I think doing this would be quicker than just adding hcl and peroxide. I may be wrong


----------



## butcher

So would cooling to crystalize phase remove excess Hydrogen form your HCl like a spounge sucking up excess H+ from solution, (since it can absob 900 times its volume), is this just surface volume? 

and leaving PdCl in solution, with excess unreacted CL- (that did not excape as gas in the heating phase), would not the H2O2 give more H+ to free Cl-?
does this make sense?


----------



## Palladium

butcher said:


> So would cooling to crystalize phase remove excess Hydrogen form your HCl like a spounge sucking up excess H+ from solution, (since it can absob 900 times its volume), is this just surface volume?
> 
> and leaving PdCl in solution, with excess unreacted CL- (that did not excape as gas in the heating phase), would not the H2O2 give more H+ to free Cl-?
> does this make sense?



I read that as per mole. So i guess the answer would be overall volume not surface volume. I believe because of the tunneling effect that the metal as a whole becomes hydrogen permeable. Allowing hydrogen to be transported through out its crystal structure. Upon cooling it becomes trapped.

Your right about the H2O2 now that i think about it. It acts as a stabilizer. Much like it's added to nitric acid to stop NOx fumes.

:arrow:


----------



## Lou

Palladium metal absorbs hydrogen, not the salts. There is interesting chemistry going on...for a long time, many thought there was a Pd-H2 moiety that was hydride like (hence its use as a reducing agent; hydride is a very hard base and great reducing agent: i.e. sodium borohydride or lithium aluminum hydride). More likely there are very weak coordinating/dative bonds...

The activity of the catalyst deals with surface area, because the hydrogen is only partially diffused into the surface of the metal's lattice.

Hydrogen is a great reducing agent for palladium (and the rest of the PGMs--it is very clean. Easily removed by heating in a vacuum). It is also used to commercially purify hydrogen of other gases.


----------



## Palladium

Theirs the man i been looking for. Welcome back Lou. Where you been ?


----------



## Anonymous

Has anybody had the palladium wires out of hammond organs refined to see how pure it is? Just wondering if it is alloyed with anything or if it is pure palladium.


----------



## jimdoc

I sent some in to Midwest Refineries a few years back.I sent it with some palladium plus rings,I don't know what the palladium percentage in the rings was, so I can't answer your question.
I think it should be pure besides maybe some possible other metals at the solder or weld points.

That lot on Ebay right now doesn't look right if that is why you are asking.
Maybe he just needs some better pictures?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130463006795&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Jim


----------



## DarkspARCS

Jimdoc, have you by any chance cut open any of the tan colored cylanders soldered to the large generator found underneath the top row of keys (they are soldered to the filter transformers) ?




I opened one up with a razor knife and there's a tighty wound coil of Some type of shiney metallic foil. Any idea on what that foil may be?


----------



## jimdoc

Can you post a picture?What I am thinking of from the diagram shown is usually wound with copper wire,sometimes weird colors.It may have a tinned copper sheet covering the wire coil.The only spots I have found palladium were in the bussbars and contacts.There are some other contacts from different parts of the organ that may be silver or an alloy,but I have checked yet,I just save them.
Jim


----------



## DarkspARCS

Sure thing Jim, let me get out the trusty Oympus fe-330 and snap off a shot for ya.

Also, I heard a rummor a long time ago about pm also being used to manufacture the glass cathode tubes found plugged into the boxes on the bottom. Have you ever heard about anything like that?

Also... (lol)... The wires that are used throughout the particular Hamond I'm working with are all either solid or stranded, but silver in color. The stranded wires appear to be copper when looking at the cut off, but when the wire's sheath is removed the wire is silverish in color. Silver coated copper wire? 

The solid silverish colored wire was found, once again, connecting the little copper filter transformers to the big round paper cylanders I described above. I took the solid wire and dipped it directly into 15% hcl - with no affect. no acidic reaction, no metallic discoloring, no metallic corrosion. Got any stannous available to check these wires? Ah... here are your pictures!

Solid Silver Colored Wire:




Round Paper Cylanders (I suspect that these are types of resistors, being that the foil is wound into a tight coil and insulated by a thin sheet of plastic):







Lol... I just looked at the Hammond wiring diagram and it appears they labled them as resistors:




BTW... are these the busbars you're referring to?:




Look forward to your reply.


----------



## jimdoc

Richard, those look like capacitors.I have a box of them,but never opened one.My guess would be aluminum on the foil,if it is heavy there is a chance it may be tantalum.I also don't think the silver colored wire is anything precious.

Yes those are the bussbars.If you look close there is a palladium wire tack welded down the length.Sometimes you can pull it off in one shot,but most of the time it breaks at the spot welds.The other copper looking parts that contact the bussbar have little pieces of palladium on the tips.I averaged about 2 dwt per organ,the smaller ones with one row of keys usually only had 1/2 dwt,and a C-3 I think I got over 5 dwt.

Scrapping an organ is a lot of work,but I will go for free palladium where ever I can find it.The scrap wire and brass gears add up also.And some parts sell on Ebay,if you want to bother with that.

I have heard of precious metals in vacuum tubes,but most I think were from military items.I have boxes of tubes on the side also,to mess with at a later date.

Jim


----------



## DarkspARCS

lol, I discovered the info on vintage Hammond parts only AFTER I'd tore into everything ...

Probably get more money selling the parts not valued with pm if you go that route. Probably could sell just the keys alone for a handsome return, due to people looking to replace ones they broke from the long duration pounding they took over the decades!

About the foils, do you have any way to determine thier true composition? They remind me more of silver foils than aluminum.


----------



## stihl88

They do look like Caps, notice the MFD printed on to one of them? that would usually stand for microfarrad 
and the red line looks like a polarity mark which are usually not required on resistors.

The foils should dissolve in HCL if they are alluminium


----------



## qst42know

Definitely old school capacitors.

The tube radio, tube audio guys pay *premium* prices for vintage caps.

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-VINTAGE-SPRAGUE-022UF-400V-LES-PAUL-TONE-CAPACITORS-/320646741857?pt=Guitar&hash=item4aa808ff61


----------



## jimdoc

I have seen used capacitors sell for close to $300 for old Les Paul guitars.
They were the old paper wrapped type with the wax ends.You have to have the exact one that someone needs for a restoration with some length left on the leads.I doubt that they are hot sellers,especially how tight money is now.

Jim


----------



## DarkspARCS

lol, it's amazing to see the things that get sold on ebay. Vintage parts are howeer just that - vintage - and people with a love for things of a vintage nature, esp. things that were developed 'before thier time' or defined an era.

I found 1200 Hammond auctions on Ebay, with lots of parts up for bid. Alot of them had no bids unfortunately... but some of images provided were great to remanesse about lol, like this image of the tone generator:




I took the brass plate found shown here in for scrap yesterday and the operator told me it was brass colored aluminum. I said no way, that's brass baby, through and through. Woudn't you now it? he took out his knife and scratched it lol...

Jimdoc, you were right on the money about those wires, lol I need a magnifier just to see them. What tools have you found works best to remove them? do you disseminate the wire from the cloth coating or burn it? can the larger wires that solder to the board opposite the known palladium wires be palladium as well? I ask because they're coated with the same white cloth as the smaller wires, underneath the black outer cloth coating. They can be seen in the image above as the bundled black wires that fan out and solder to locations on the tone generator from the solder board.

Are the busbars made of silver? I ask that because some of my busbars have oxidized locations that have turned black, like tarnished silver:







Let me know ! =)


----------



## jimdoc

Richard,
The bussbars can be different in each organ.I have found copper,brass,and nickel looking ones.The nickel looking ones are slightly magnetic like nickel should be.

I use a good pair of tweezers to get the palladium wire off at one end of the bussbar.Most of the time I will break the bussbar in half by bending,and that will give you an easier spot to grab the palladium wire.You have to pull on the wire with just enough force to pop the next spot weld.If you are lucky they just keep popping all in a row.Usually they break at the spot welds and you have to get another grip and start again.I have it down so that it is pretty easy for me.Just walk away and give it a break when it starts to get difficult.

You could always just deal with the bussbars chemically,I just find the way I do it easier and cheaper.The small tips of the contacts with the tiny palladium wire spot welded get done with hydrochloric to dissolve the copper when I get a bunch saved up.

Sometimes I will just tear apart the organ,and the bussbars will sit for months until I get a chance to mess with them.So even if you just stock them up,you know what you have.I have about 1/2 oz of palladium now form organs,and have sold over an oz a few years back.

Jim


----------



## DarkspARCS

jimdoc, found another paladium look alike wire, wapped in reddish cloth, while roessigthe toe generator. it's wrapped on the brwnboard just under the copper coils. *hiccup* goodstuff... :lol: 













any idea if its paladium? 

note to self: discover what a 'toe generator' is...


----------



## jimdoc

I doubt it. But only one way to be sure, test it.

Jim


----------



## DarkspARCS

Found some useful info:

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/HammondPatents

http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/hammond-leslie_faq_-_service_bulletins.htm


----------



## davycoppitt

Toward the middle of this thread there was a discussion about Palladium Plus rings. I was wondering if anybody had an update on what alloy they contained?


----------



## DarkspARCS

update: palladium wire from the hammond I processed, which was in pieces behind a market, was not pure pd, but instead pd coated steel cable. If that weren't a kick to the gonnads enough, found that those wires that I burned to get the cloth wrap from around the wire had had the pd coating vaporize with the cloth lmao...

Best method to get cloth off from the wire is use of a medium grain sand paper that you fold over and pull wire through, gently, to rip cloth via abrasive action.

OOOhhhhh well.... :roll:


----------



## Marcel

Easy way to determine wheter it is palaldium is to dissolve a small piece then make the SC test.


----------



## jimdoc

jimdoc said:


> Does anybody know what other metal is in the Palladium/Plus school rings? I remember in 1981 when I graduated they were popular, but
> I forget what the catalog said about them. I was wondering if they are
> alloyed with ruthenium or iridium? Or maybe just rhodium plated?
> I have about ten of them, and if they are ten percent ruthenium, that
> would add up to a substantial amount with the price where it is now.



I am curious if anybody has an answer to this old post, those 10 rings where sold years ago. And since they were sold with other items, I never figured out the yield of those rings.

I have some Palladium/Plus and Precium rings I am thinking of selling, and would like to know if, and how much better the Palladium/Plus rings are better than the Precium. I know the Precium are supposed to be 25% palladium, but does anybody know the palladium % of the Palladium/Plus?

I have 3 P/P rings 39.5g w/stones, and 4 Precium rings 62.8g w/stones.
Also 16 grams of palladium wire from Hammond organs, plus some other organ contacts that need to be processed. If anyone is interested I will take some pictures and post in the for sale section.

And (3) 1/4 oz Stillwater Palladium rounds in original package, but cut into singles. Those I would want $250 each, or I will just keep them.

Jim


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## blk03001

I've asked around the industry and it is 90% palladium. The remaining alloy will be silver, nickel, cobalt, or ruthenium or any combination.

Sorry I wasn't able to get more information, but with the palladium markets on the rise it may be worth refining for you.


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## jimdoc

blk03001 said:


> I've asked around the industry and it is 90% palladium. The remaining alloy will be silver, nickel, cobalt, or ruthenium or any combination.
> 
> Sorry I wasn't able to get more information, but with the palladium markets on the rise it may be worth refining for you.



Thanks. That seems to be close to what I remembered from the brochure when I graduated high school. It is strange that this brochure, or other factual information on that alloy isn't to be found on the internet.

Jim


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## blk03001

I agree it is very strange you can't find anything online. I asked someone who used to do business with Balfour in the 80s and this was as close as we got. Items in 95% Pd are coming more into popularity now so maybe that will help unearth some info about this other alloy.


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## safewaybestway

jimdoc said:


> Here is a picture from an Ebay ad that shows the contacts and bussbars.
> If you look on the tips of the contacts, and the top of the "bussbars" you can see the palladium wire.




I Hope this in the right spot, and order. I was just given a old Hammond organ, and read on here a year or so ago about the Pd wire and other PM's in these. After disassembling the keys and foot pedals I have got it down just as this photo shows and can easily see the Pd wire on the end of the copper pieces. Being my 1st organ I'm not sure how old it is, though from reading many posts on here I do know it's the old tube type and the printing on the papers tacked into the inside it looks to be from late 40's early 50's. On the info plate is the model # BC. The only thing that I'm not sure of is what the composition of the bars under the copper plates as shown in the photo. The ones I have are very shiny, not dull/dark like in the photo, and a rem magnet will pull to it but not a strong attraction. So my question is what is the composition of the long bars? Also why are the tubes from this organ and amp console so expensive? Do they contain PM's or just hard to find parts? Any info would be much appreciated.


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## justinhcase

safewaybestway said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture from an Ebay ad that shows the contacts and bussbars.
> If you look on the tips of the contacts, and the top of the "bussbars" you can see the palladium wire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I Hope this in the right spot, and order. I was just given a old Hammond organ, and read on here a year or so ago about the Pd wire and other PM's in these. After disassembling the keys and foot pedals I have got it down just as this photo shows and can easily see the Pd wire on the end of the copper pieces. Being my 1st organ I'm not sure how old it is, though from reading many posts on here I do know it's the old tube type and the printing on the papers tacked into the inside it looks to be from late 40's early 50's. On the info plate is the model # BC. The only thing that I'm not sure of is what the composition of the bars under the copper plates as shown in the photo. The ones I have are very shiny, not dull/dark like in the photo, and a rem magnet will pull to it but not a strong attraction. So my question is what is the composition of the long bars? Also why are the tubes from this organ and amp console so expensive? Do they contain PM's or just hard to find parts? Any info would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...

I asked one of my audio technicians who has strips and rebuilds Hammond organ from the year dot.
He said the parts are like rocking horse do do and are mostly plated,the exception being some of the electrical contacts.
It may take a little time but they apparently fetch good money so I would not try to process unless they where beyond use..


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## Golddigger Greg

I wouldn't scrap a thing on it until you check out the resale of the whole unit or working parts. Did you ask about the speakers (Leslie) that often were sold with Models B/C? Those are worth some serious money!

I've torn down a few Hammond organs and collected up the palladium but haven't processed any of it yet so I'm not able to speak to yields.


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## Mikemsg

So did anyone ever have palladium plus class rings tested with the xrf gun yet to find out the composition of metals in the rings?


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## jphayesjr

Hi everyone, this is my first post. What models of Hammond organs are probably worth using for recovery? What do you do with the wood? I know wood recyclers who sell to furniture makers, FYI. I think jet turbines have a PMG rich array of contacts, sensors, bus bars etc.


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## canedane

Welcome jphayesjr.
I belive all Hammond organs have Au or/and Pd. The most is in the bussbars, but also the contacts can be good.
I normally find about a gram of gold or palladium in the organs from the early 1970 to the middle 1980. I have not scrap elder organs than that.
Yamaha organs is also worth to have a search for Au or/and Pd.
The wood is normaly chipboard with phenyl glue from that time.
Henrik


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## bitgold

Mikemsg said:


> So did anyone ever have palladium plus class rings tested with the xrf gun yet to find out the composition of metals in the rings?


hey Mikemsg,
I have been studying online (your post on cointalk was one of my reads) I am compiling a database for myself since I can find very little solid info. My buyer has an XRF but will not pay 80% until I gather at least 10 grams I think I have about 6g so far. The P+ he scanned today came out at just under 25% Someone else here said they sent in quite a few grams to a refiner and came out about 35% I guess the alloys are all over the map depending on the era?


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