# buying new (misprint) cell phone boards



## jungle_Dave (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I found a possible good deal but have some question,
There is a company here that buys defective scrap from manufacturing suppliers,
I have been offered $18 (US) a kilo to take it off there hands.
Double sided cell phone boards, no circuits mounted, new in the box. Most of the gold leaf is on the number buttons. There is gold leaf on the back side too. 

I know its hard to say blind if its a good deal or not but in general what do people think?
Id have to commit to 100 kg to buy :shock: ,

Any advise is welcome.

Thanks

Dave


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## FrugalRefiner (Jan 28, 2015)

I've never processed cell phone boards, so I can't help on yields, but I can offer a bit of math.

Gold is $1,287.00 per ounce, or $41.38 per gram.
$18.00 would be .435 grams.
So you'd need a yield of .0435% to break even (ignoring time and chemical costs).

Dave


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## arthur kierski (Jan 28, 2015)

are there chips on these boards?if not,it is not worth-----if yes,i would buy it.
the real gold is on the components on the boards
one kilo of boards with components on it,have 60grams of components with gold embedded on them-----boardsort pays 11dollars per pound of cellphone boards,that is24,2dollars per kilo---
regards
Arthur Kierski


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## jungle_Dave (Jan 28, 2015)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I've never processed cell phone boards, so I can't help on yields, but I can offer a bit of math.
> 
> Gold is $1,287.00 per ounce, or $41.38 per gram.
> $18.00 would be .435 grams.
> ...



Hi Dave,

Thats a good breakdown, I see that they are high balling me, I did not commit to anything yet,
Im going for 1/2 of that if I go for it at all.



arthur kierski said:


> are there chips on these boards?if not,it is not worth-----if yes,i would buy it.
> the real gold is on the components on the boards
> one kilo of boards with components on it,have 60grams of components with gold embedded on them-----boardsort pays 11dollars per pound of cellphone boards,that is24,2dollars per kilo---
> regards
> Arthur Kierski



Nope, just the boards, thats the deal, they have smaller amounts of used boards with the chips and components mounted for the same price, so that might be worth looking at.

Lots of bizarre telecom boards too with heavy brass backing and thick gold plating, its the brass that makes me concerned. these are more like 6$ a kilo..


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 28, 2015)

There's no gold leaf anywhere on a cellphone. It's all plating. Totally different stuff.

(1) If the boards are all the same, first measure the plating and then calculate the number of square inches of gold plating on one board. Each square inch of gold on the board, except for fingers and pins.will be worth about $0.065 at a $1280 market. Fingers and fully covered pins are worth about $0.39 per square inch.
(2) Weigh a board in grams.
(3) Divide 998.8 by the board weight. This is the number of boards per kilo.
(4) Multiply the number of boards per kilo X number of square inches of gold plating per board X .065 = the approximate dollar value of one kilo of boards. If there are fingers or pins, calculate them separately and add them in.


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## jungle_Dave (Jan 29, 2015)

goldsilverpro said:


> There's no gold leaf anywhere on a cellphone. It's all plating. Totally different stuff.
> 
> (1) If the boards are all the same, first measure the plating and then calculate the number of square inches of gold plating on one board. Each square inch of gold on the board, except for fingers and pins.will be worth about $0.065 at a $1280 market. Fingers and fully covered pins are worth about $0.39 per square inch.
> (2) Weigh a board in grams.
> ...



Thank you for this excellent guide line, this makes it so much easier for me to give a fair bid and gauge my results.
I stand corrected for using the term leaf in place of plating.

All of this information so kindly given to me by fellow members is so useful, I thank you all for helping me out , again. 

Kind regards,

Dave,


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## solar_plasma (Jan 29, 2015)

This method, GSP explained, is a lot of help for a first estimation, but still be careful with your pricing. As an example: 60-70 DDR2 RAMs, about 1kg, would yield 30€ or about 1g gold using this calculation only from plating. In practice they could and probably will yield only little more than 0,5g refined gold from the plating, at least with the typical losses when refining small batches.

What I have learned: Estimate the value, but don't wonder, if it's only half of it.


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## kurtak (Jan 29, 2015)

Dave

Ok - they are "misprints" --- the first question is why :?: --- is it because the circuits (trace's) were printed wrong? or something like copper didn't meet spec, or nickel plating didn't meet spec, or gold plating didn't meet spec, or ????

As the refiner I would suspect Au plating didn't meet spec - the question is by how much (which would change sq. in. measurement at least to some degree) & is there plating under the solder mask (at least at trace/solder mask border - which would make true measuring difficult)

Personally what I would do is first see if they would give me (free) 1 kilo to test (no assay fee) if not I would then just buy one kilo 

I would then put them in nitric - nitric because it would give me my foils in a couple/few hours & it will get under the solder mask to expose any (if) plating under the mask (as opposed to AP taking days & not so good at getting under the mask) 

Then off to AR or HCl/Cl - precip - melt & weigh giving you a more true expectation with the answer to the question in a day - or two at most & at small cost for a more true answer of expectation on the larger purchase 

Not saying that's the only way to go about it - just what I would do

Kurt


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## necromancer (Jan 29, 2015)

kurtak said:


> Dave
> 
> Ok - they are "misprints" --- the first question is why :?: --- is it because the circuits (trace's) were printed wrong? or something like copper didn't meet spec, or nickel plating didn't meet spec, or gold plating didn't meet spec, or ????
> 
> ...



only the manufacture can answer that question.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 29, 2015)

NOTE: This post has been severely edited.

You'll probably never know why they were rejected and, in the long run, who cares? They are what they are. The term "misprint" is a specific one and doesn't sound like it's calling out too thin gold. It sounds more to me like the plating pattern was mislocated or wrong. But, who knows exactly what it means? 

I guess I should have clarified this better. My procedure is to first estimate the value using the best info I have. The procedure I gave is how I would do it. You have to start somewhere. This estimate was based on an educated guess that the plating on the "plane" area is 5 micro" thick. As Björn said, this is only a 1st analysis (guess). I also agree that you obtain about a kilo and test the value of it by recovering the gold. What you ultimately pay for it is another story.

This is the first appearance on the forum of manufacturing scrap in a long time. If I were to start another refinery, I would ONLY run manufacturing scrap. It's so much easier to run and it comes in big piles. It helps that that's all I dealt with for at least 20 years. Every item you're dealing with had to once be manufactured. In the 70s, 40% of all the gold purchased by the manufacturers for use on their products ended up as scrap, waste. I don't know what it is today but I'd bet it isn't much different.

For example, let's take a connector manufacturer that makes the whole thing, from start to finish. Here is a list of some possible gold-bearing items in various production stages the connector manufacturer, for example, will scrap.

(1) Gold plating wastes from plating pins. 
------Around any gold plating tank there will be drips and spills. These are cleaned up with tissues (probably Kimwipes) and saved in a bag.
------Underplated pins - scrapped
------Ugly plating - Bath out of kilter - current density screw-up - pins are scrapped
------Dragout Solutions - after removing the plating barrel or coils of pins from the plating solution, these are rinsed in water. The rinse is called a drag-out solution. The gold builds up in the drag-out solution and is scrapped.

(2) Pins after Plating
------Don't meet testing requirements for some reason - scrapped
------If the pins are plated on a reel and then trimmed from the lead frame that holds them together, the gold-bearing lead frames will be scrapped

(3) After inserting the pins in the plastic or plastic/metal connector body, there are flaws - Scrap it.

That's 7 types of scrap. There are probably 7 more.

If you are somewhat presentable, have a business card with a business name and address, and have a little gift of gab with an honest approach, I guarantee the manufacturer will talk to you. The main rule is to always first talk to the purchasing agent that deals with scrap - don't try to go around him. I don't really understand proper ISO certification but, if you have it, the manufacturers will sell stuff to you even if the material contains hazardous things, such as lead. Often, the smaller manufacturers sell to local scrap dealers under, say, a one year contract, often for a dollar per pound price on everything - both base metals and gold scrap. You can probably beat their prices but you might have to wait a year. The bigger ones ship to a refiner which also might be a short contract. Unless the refiner is honest (good luck), you could probably pay more for it outright than they have been getting from the refiner. And, on and on. They are businessmen and you have to be a businessman.

If I were to start another refinery, I would find out the who the manufacturers are, and their locations, of all the 120 or so different refining items that I made a list of and have posted many times on the forum.

C'mon guys. You've f**ted around with this stuff for too long. Let's make some money!


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## jungle_Dave (Jan 29, 2015)

solar_plasma said:


> This method, GSP explained, is a lot of help for a first estimation, but still be careful with your pricing. As an example: 60-70 DDR2 RAMs, about 1kg, would yield 30€ or about 1g gold using this calculation only from plating. In practice they could and probably will yield only little more than 0,5g refined gold from the plating, at least with the typical losses when refining small batches.
> 
> What I have learned: Estimate the value, but don't wonder, if it's only half of it.



Great point.
Thats what I do buying gems, if I don't get them for a third of what I try to sell them for I don't buy, learned that the hard way :lol: , gold is much more easy to value (and sell). 

Kurt, 
Being an engineer myself, I did find the matching p/n mylars in a separate box in the same pile, found that the 8 key and 6 key misaligned enough to fail the connection, is that the only problem? don't know.

Thanks for the nitric acid tip, that was a procedure that I had questions about now answered by you perfectly.
(Big thanks to Laser Steve for the cold nitric formula, I'm getting good at it now, saved me a fortune too)



goldsilverpro said:


> You'll probably never know why they were rejected and, in the long run, who cares? The term "misprint" is a specific one and doesn't sound like it's calling out too thin gold. It sounds more to me like the plating pattern was mislocated. But, who knows exactly what it means?
> 
> I guess I should have clarified this better. My procedure is to first estimate the value using the best info I have. The procedure I gave is how I would do it. You have to start somewhere. This estimate was based on an educated guess that the plating on the "plane" area is 5 micro" thick. As Björn said, this is only a 1st analysis (guess). I also agree that you obtain about a kilo and test the value of it by recovering the gold. What you ultimately pay for it is another story.



You read my mind, I have 2 handicaps here, Im new (the biggest) 
2) I work (to put it politely) in a very naive market, people know there is gold on the boards but have no idea how to process it or how much could be there.

Profit is important but so is having a steady supply of materials (they get tons, the metric type). I did not grow up rich so my word and reputation are the most valuable things I have.

My conclusion on this deal is, buy a sample after making a rough calculation, see with my own 2 eyes what I get out of it. Go back and negotiate a good offer for both me and the seller.

If I get it right, its an excellent contact. 
If its not profitable, I walk.

Thank you all again for all your expert advice, experience and help, for me its priceless.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 29, 2015)

After 49 years of doing this, mostly on a large scale professional level, I am absolutely positive that the most important part is to know the PM value of what you are dealing with - whether buying or selling. To make money, this is a MUST. Always make the evaluation first, before you buy, sell, or refine. In this business, the winner of any and all negoitations is the person that knows the value of the specific values of the items they are dealing with.

If I were to start another refinery, the absolute first thing I would buy, without exception, is a fire assay setup. With it, you can evaluate anything (I can think of no exception of anything that contains silver and/or gold) in 1 to 4 hours, including solutions. With fire assay, anyone could start making money immediately, assuming they can find a good source of scrap.

For example, with a cell phone board or, say, a TO5, you could simply dissolve everything in hot aqua regia, then fire assay about 5ml of the solution, and you will know exactly what that particular board was worth. This works most easily (as far as effort is concerned) with manufacturing scrap, since you usually can get big batches that contain identical items. With the right instruction, fire assay (FA) can be learned in one day. Were I to setup FA, I would buy everything new and would spend about $5000. The 2 big-ticket items are the furnace and the analytical balance that reads down to .0001g. I would spend about $3500 just on those two things. However, you can probably cut that down to a few hundred if you buy them used. At the bottom, you could make a lot of what you need and spend maybe a total of $500-$1000. Maybe even less. If you could find a blacksmith, you could save $200 on tongs and other tools and end up with better ones. Etc., etc. I have done FA both extremely cheap and extremely expensive and have gotten the same results from both.

If you ask (or, insist) for samples, you can often get an adequate sample(s) for nothing, including shipping. I usually tell them that, if I buy their lot, I will also buy the sample.


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## necromancer (Jan 29, 2015)

if the seller will not want to give or sell you a sample to assay then its a good sign to walk away.


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## justinhcase (Jan 29, 2015)

goldsilverpro said:


> After 49 years of doing this, mostly on a large scale professional level, I am absolutely positive that the most important part is to know the PM value of what you are dealing with - whether buying or selling. To make money, this is a MUST. Always make the evaluation first, before you buy, sell, or refine. In this business, the winner of any and all negoitations is the person that knows the value of the specific values of the items they are dealing with.
> 
> If I were to start another refinery, the absolute first thing I would buy, without exception, is a fire assay setup. With it, you can evaluate anything (I can think of no exception of anything that contains silver and/or gold) in 1 to 4 hours, including solutions. With fire assay, anyone could start making money immediately
> 
> ...


What kind of safety margin do you use when calculating an offer?
I have been encouraging clients to be patient and wait for me to run there hole lot before paying them as much as I can based on the actual return.
But clients being impatient I am considering making offers based on a test run, but this will mean I will have to offer a lower amount of payment because I have yet to find a lot that was the same the hole way through. Even the larger commercial lot's that the client swears are all the same.
They always seem to have some lower return components included some where and if I had paid out based on my initial test's I would have worked for free or paid for the pleasure of a week's work.
And that is not even broaching the subject of market change, with the spot price fluctuating so much faster than one can process a lot you really need to include a second safety margin in case the bottom drops out of the gold price as well. 
It is a little bit like working with the Y.M.C.A. again and having to ask Timy "do you want one sweetie to day Timy? or two sweeties tomorrow?"


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## necromancer (Jan 29, 2015)

if i think it's worth $100.00 & i have to spend $30.00 trying to buy it, it's now worth $70.00

i would offer $35.00. i am always OK with walking away, 75% of the time the customer will call you back or not even let you walk out the door.

it's ok to say *"no thank you"* !


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## necromancer (Jan 29, 2015)

i am not as cheap as this guy 

http://www.oln.ca/shows/the-liquidator/


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## jungle_Dave (Jan 29, 2015)

goldsilverpro,

This advice I am taking to heart, and getting myself face to face with a fire assay setup.
As far as I know, there is only one facility here with such equipment and they export only.
Until then I'll go the chemical route but I know what what I will be saving up for.
Knowing how to quickly and accurately determine the PM quantities in materials is my next major study.
You have given me a real head start,. I am also sure you had to learn this all yourself the hard way. You have my deepest respect and thanks for sharing this with me and so many others. 

Justin, 
I would be the wrong one to ask about saftey margins, but in my other business (gems) I like to give myself a 60% margin of making a profit as what I do is a total risk with no fixed price. Hard to do in your case as you are contract refining for clients. When I buy for clients I like to go for the highest price they are comfortable with so I can surprise them with a great discount and more then they asked for in quality.
Obviously this is the other way around in your situation so its a harder sell. 
I wish you the best of luck!

necromancer,

For me, there is no such thing as a dead deal, just re-negotiation.
Walking away is part of the game, I did just that and now I have a meeting with the "boss" first week of Feb.
Thanks to you all I can at least look like I know what I am talking about 8) 

For everyone who puts up with me here or anyone new reading this post.
1 week ago I was crying that this was so much harder for me then for you guys, lack of ready chemicals, I can't buy rubber stoppers at the lab glass store, I could go on for a page or more :lol:. Each time someone here gave me the solution, most of the time with out me even having to ask.
I learn 3 times more doing it the hard way but there is always an answer out there when I get stuck.


I have so much to learn but am enjoying every part of this.
You guys are great thanks again.

Best wishes,

Dave


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 29, 2015)

Our excellent member Arthur Kierski is in Brazil. In fact, he made a post yesterday.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Arthur+Kierski&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=brazil&terms=all&author=Arthur+Kierski&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


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## necromancer (Jan 29, 2015)

your welcome, sharing is the way to go !!
we may need to change the site slogan from "refiners helping refiners"
to: "Dave's helping Dave's"  i can't believe the amount of "Dave's" here on the forum.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 29, 2015)

necromancer said:


> your welcome, sharing is the way to go !!
> we may need to change the site slogan from "refiners helping refiners"
> to: "Dave's helping Dave's"  i can't believe the amount of "Dave's" here on the forum.


You're right. There's a ton of Daves and, I might add, a lot of people named Chris.


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