# nitric acid



## JHS (Jul 23, 2015)

can sodium nitrate be replaced by ammonium nitrate when you make nitric acid by combining copper hcl and nitrates?
thanks john


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## Geo (Jul 23, 2015)

Any nitrate should work. It just takes different amounts one one or the other to get the same amount of acid back.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 23, 2015)

Just as a side note: Ammonium makes things in many cases more difficult, just from annoying (treating waste stream) to potentially dangerous (silver- and gold compounds).


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## JHS (Jul 23, 2015)

Thant you.
john


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## lanfear (Jul 24, 2015)

What about calcium nitrate? Would that complicate anything?

Jon


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## butcher (Jul 24, 2015)

Ammonium nitrate poses danger. In my opinion is normally too dangerous to use.

Calcium nitrate can leave a hard to remove calcium sulfate (gypsum sheetrock in the reaction vessel). too much trouble with your glassware especially if distilling...

Potassium nitrate works very well, but can give minor problems with the crystalization of the potassium sulfate salts which can hold some of your nitric in its crystal structure. this can be overcome by how you allow these crystals to grow or with recrystalization...

Sodium nitrate in my opinion is the best source of nitrate salts, and easiest to work with.


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## JHS (Jul 24, 2015)

Butcher,
Thank you for your response.It is a matter of economic.one ton of ammonium nitrate $212.00 very local 
one ton of sodium nitrate $4,000.00 long trip
50 lbs ammonium nitrate $14.95 local
4 lbs sodium nitrate $8.95 local
these are the prices I was able to come up with within 100 miles of my location.I am sure there are places where
the prices are lower,but I have not located them yet.
Thanks john


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## solar_plasma (Jul 24, 2015)

I think I remember a thread about making the sodium salt by treating with NaOH in aquaeous solution and distilling off the ammonium hydroxide, but I do not know for sure. You could try to search for it.

My stomach says it is not worth the efford and the risks, I wouldn't even feel comfortable with having that much of it stored, even if it was allowed in germany, which it isn't to schools at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate_disasters


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## jason_recliner (May 23, 2016)

butcher said:


> Ammonium nitrate poses danger. In my opinion is normally too dangerous to use.
> 
> Calcium nitrate can leave a hard to remove calcium sulfate (gypsum sheetrock in the reaction vessel). too much trouble with your glassware especially if distilling...
> 
> ...


Butcher,
Could you please explain a little more about the potential trouble with using KNO3? Is this an issue that could be mitigated by dilution?

Up to now I have only used sodium nitrate and am quite comfortable with that. I found a possible source of potassium nitrate, assuming they will sell it to me, in a 25 kg MOQ. So I want it to be ok!

I have to make my own sodium nitrate by converting ammonium nitrate from instant cold packs with sodium hydroxide. Probably much like Bjorn described. I wouldn't ever use NH4NO3 directly either! But these packs now use urea, at best, and I'm almost out of NaNO3.


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## butcher (May 25, 2016)

Nitric acid made from potassium nitrate salt and sulfuric acid leaves a byproduct of potassium sulfate, if the crystals of potassium sulfate grow too fast, the crystal lattice seems to lock up some of the liquid nitric acid in its structure. Slower cooling or lowering of temperature seems to help in growing smaller crystals which seem to hold less of the nitric solution.
Careful re-crystallization helps to recover the nitric which the crystals may hold.

Potassium salts do have advantages, one they are less harmful to soils or plants...
Potassium nitrate works well for making nitric acid.


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## jason_recliner (May 25, 2016)

Thank you Butcher. That's really handy to be aware of.


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## Meta-Torbernite (Jun 29, 2016)

I need a little help with this set up. I have obtained a lot of ammonium nitrate and I would like to make the 86% with vacuum distillation but i am not sure how much vacuum is needed to get the boiling point down to 83°c. Or how to convert it to KNO3 or NaNO3. Please help!!! Thank you everyone. I have probably 10lbs of this stuff because I thought any nitrate salt would work. I have seen it done on YouTube, but no one discussed the dangers of using it. 
I have all the chemistry glass ware and 3 gallons of 98% H2S04 just need some amounts and conversion methodology for converting NH2NO3 to KNO3 or NaNO3
Thank you.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 29, 2016)

I would suggest using the ammonium nitrate judiciously to fertilize your garden and find a safer nitrate for your recovery and refining use.

Dave


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## UncleBenBen (Jun 29, 2016)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I would suggest using the ammonium nitrate judiciously to fertilize your garden and find a safer nitrate for your recovery and refining use.
> 
> Dave



I will second Dave's opinion, as I'm sure most will. If you have that many "not sures" then leave ammonia compounds out of your processes, take the loss and invest in a safer source of nitrate.

Ammonia + (not sure ÷maybe if) = BOOM!!!


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## jason_recliner (Jun 30, 2016)

Meta-Torbernite said:


> just need some amounts and conversion methodology for converting NH2NO3 to KNO3 or NaNO3


As I indicated above, I have converted small quantities of ammonium nitrate to sodium nitrate myself in the past, though it's something I no longer need to do.
NB: Ammonium nitrate is NH4NO3, not NH2NO3.

Since then, I thought I saw somewhere that posting detail of making own reagents is frowned upon, though I can't find it in the rules now that I look, nor whether such a conversion constitutes "making" reagents.
Therefore if a moderator so approves, I would be happy to share in a new thread the method I have previously used - on the reasoning that GRF peer review would be superior to a YouTube how-to-kill-yourself video. Otherwise I'll be happy to shut my yap on the matter.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 1, 2016)

jason_recliner said:


> Since then, I thought I saw somewhere that posting detail of making own reagents is frowned upon, though I can't find it in the rules now that I look, nor whether such a conversion constitutes "making" reagents.
> Therefore if a moderator so approves, I would be happy to share in a new thread the method I have previously used - on the reasoning that GRF peer review would be superior to a YouTube how-to-kill-yourself video. Otherwise I'll be happy to shut my yap on the matter.


Please share, there is no such "rule" that I know of. Just as long as we keep it related to refining and if there's dangers involved, make sure you include warnings.

Göran


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