# I'm colour blind need help (pink)



## ferrous (Feb 28, 2014)

So I have been trying small batch's 50grams of various pins
To see how the reaction works and what takes place .
Here's what I did 50 grams of pins heated with torch till red hot 
Boiled in hcl to remove solder /tin. Re incinerated and rinsed in hot water 3x 
Than removed base metals with nitric (first time) 
No reaction when nitric was added , ran it threw a filter to collect my foils 
But I have a precipitate that I believe is pink mixed with my foils can someone please confirm 
But please don't tell me what it is I would like to do my own research 
I collected foils and pink stuff and put it in test tube with water


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## ferrous (Feb 28, 2014)

6 views can someone please confirm if this is pink ?


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## jonn (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes, a sort of dark pink.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 28, 2014)

It looks like a reddish pink to me.

Dave


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## Anonymous (Feb 28, 2014)

Ive got to ask ferrous- why are you heating and incinerating pins?


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## bmgold2 (Feb 28, 2014)

spaceships said:


> Ive got to ask ferrous- why are you heating and incinerating pins?



Oil on pins? I just ran into a problem getting some I.C. legs to react to acid so I incinerated them and that fixed the problem.


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## Anonymous (Feb 28, 2014)

First time maybe at a stretch but the second?

We're not talking about taking out silver here.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 28, 2014)

The first time would be to remove organics. The second would be well advised as he was moving from an HCl leach to a nitric leach of base metals.

Dave


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## Anonymous (Feb 28, 2014)

No worries Dave, I think we were looking at it from different angles Sir.

Jon


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 28, 2014)

Just a guess:

Colloidal gold? You brought the the pins to red hot twice. At that heat, maybe some copper migrated to the surface, nickel barrier or not. If that were true, when the copper dissolved, some of the gold would likely be colloidal. 

After the pins cooled, were they bright and shiny or were they dark? If dark, that could have been copper.


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## ferrous (Feb 28, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> Just a guess:
> 
> Colloidal gold? You brought the the pins to red hot twice. At that heat, maybe some copper migrated to the surface, nickel barrier or not. If that were true, when the copper dissolved, some of the gold would likely be colloidal.
> 
> After the pins cooled, were they bright and shiny or were they dark? If dark, that could have been copper.



they where dark i will test tomorrow for colloidal gold , taking a small sample using hcl/clorox than test with stannous.
re reading hoke's book still have a lot to learn


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## necromancer (Feb 28, 2014)

i opened your photo in photoshop, sampled the colour and this is what i see.





in RGB mode its 152 73 66
in HEX mode its 984942
CMYK mode its 0 52 57 40


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## solar_plasma (Mar 1, 2014)

or a light bordeaux


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## kurtak (Mar 1, 2014)

spaceships said:


> No worries Dave, I think we were looking at it from different angles Sir.
> 
> Jon



Jon - not sure what angle you are looking at it from - BUT - I see you have been a member here for about 2 years - therefore I will assume you have read Hokes - she speaks often of the importance of incineration & she explains in detail the how - when & why of incineration

Also the importance of incineration (which translates to the how - when & why) has been discussed on this forum many - many - many times

I am sorry if I sound a bit rude here (that is not my intent) I just don't get how &/or why anyone that has done the research to do this &/or has been doing it for any length of time thinks this step in the process is not important & can be skipped

Incineration - at different stages &/or times in the process is not just a suggested step (meaning a step that can be skipped) it is an instructed step (meaning it needs to be done at that point in the process for good reason) 

You may experience a degree of success by skipping this step (meaning melting a gold button at the end of your work) but skipping it can/will lead to problems which can/will lead to some value loss &/or can/will effect final product quality/purity

The importance of how - when - & why to incinerate was one of the first things I learned & came to understand when I joined this forum 3 years ago & putting it into practice has made a noticeable difference in the degree of my success --- it resolved problems - it increased value recovery - & it improved final product quality

Incineration improved my refining experience to the point I don't even consider skipping it - it's just the next step in the process of the ending goal

Kurt


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## Anonymous (Mar 1, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about it Kurt, it was more a case of far too much port last night and not being able to see straight let alone think straight.

I don't profess to know everything about every process and one thing I have noticed in my time here is that everyone has slightly differing opinions on many processes and the steps within them. There are other ways to remove any residual HCl as opposed to incinerating so there was some validity to my question. 

However thank you for your kind words they are very much appreciated.

Jon


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## kurtak (Mar 1, 2014)

spaceships said:


> I wouldn't worry about it Kurt, it was more a case of far too much port last night and not being able to see straight let alone think straight.
> 
> I don't profess to know everything about every process and one thing I have noticed in my time here is that everyone has slightly differing opinions on many processes and the steps within them. There are other ways to remove any residual HCl as opposed to incinerating so there was some validity to my question.
> 
> ...



Yes I agree - there is more then one way to go about recovering &/or refining & with differing opinions of the how to & they pretty much all work to some degree of success --- some methods are better then others - some methods are equal to others - & some are not as good as other

And thank you for taking my post as an expressed opinion - rather then my saying you are wrong (it was just my opinion based on my experience)

quote; There are other ways to remove any residual HCl as opposed to incinerating ;end quote ---- I would be interested in hearing more about this (as I am always open to learning something new) --- PH adjustment maybe :?: 

Kurt


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2014)

A great mentor of this forum has been a proponent of incineration from the first day that I joined. The advantages of incineration between and prior to certain processes can not be ignored if you want to be successful. Incineration effects recovery yields in a particular way. It helps remove troublesome materials along with residual acids and certain chemicals. It helps convert oxides, chlorides, nitrates and sulfides so that the metals can be effected by the appropriate acids. When done correctly,it converts carbons to carbon dioxide. There are the correct and useful ways to incinerate as well as the incorrect and harmful ways to incinerate. Read Hoke's and learn how and when to incinerate (without the splash of gasoline of coarse).


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## Platdigger (Mar 1, 2014)

Aww, not as much fun without the gas.
I am with GSP on this one. I think red heat may have been too much with these pins.


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2014)

Instead of trying to figure out what it looks like, digest a small sample and test it with stannous chloride. Dry a small sample and grind as fine as you can and sprinkle a small pinch onto an open flame. There are a couple other test to determine what the material is. The point im trying to make is, instead of all of us debating what it could be and why, we should be providing the instructions that ferrous can use to figure out what it is (he has the material) and tell all of us what it is.


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## Harold_V (Mar 2, 2014)

spaceships said:


> I don't profess to know everything about every process and one thing I have noticed in my time here is that everyone has slightly differing opinions on many processes and the steps within them. There are other ways to remove any residual HCl as opposed to incinerating so there was some validity to my question.


The lesson can be hard to learn, but it will be learned, at least by those who achieve success. 

Incineration isn't a luxury--it's very much a part of refining, in particular, wastes from the jeweler's bench. I can't even begin to imagine the mess one would create by processing oil laden objects, even if the oil is just body oil from handling.  

In regards to the "other ways" to which you make reference, why screw with something that's known to work properly, and yields the exact results one hopes to achieve? I'm all for progress, but circumventing a process that yields excellent results isn't what I call progress--it's what I call being bull headed. 

You, along with many others here, would do well to listen to the wisdom you have just been given by kurtak. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Mar 2, 2014)

Platdigger said:


> Aww, not as much fun without the gas.
> I am with GSP on this one. I think red heat may have been too much with these pins.


Assuming such items are processed with the dilute nitric acid method, how much heat is used isn't a factor. Process all of the ash that results from incineration and there will be no losses. 

If incinerated pins are sent to the stripping cell, any values lost to the ash would have to be recovered by processing the ash. That's just good refining practice, so I fail to see any reason to be overly concerned about the temperature of incinerations, so long as the items are not melted. 

I fully expect that there would be no migration of gold to the base metal, as virtually all gold plated objects used in the electronics industry, today, have a nickel barrier that prevents migration of gold to the base metal, which would melt long before the barrier achieved melting temperature. 

My money says incinerate. Just don't discard the ash. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2014)

Guys why is everyone assuming that I don't agree with incinerating?

I do, in its place and time so would you all kindly stop assuming that I'm completely stupid? :evil: Just because I asked a question ? :lol: :lol:


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## Harold_V (Mar 2, 2014)

spaceships said:


> Guys why is everyone assuming that I don't agree with incinerating?


If you don't wish to have a shot across your bow, don't make inflammatory remarks on the board. They will be rebutted in kind, as you're about to see. 
Maybe it's because of the less that stellar comment you made previously:
"I don't profess to know everything about every process and one thing I have noticed in my time here is that everyone has slightly differing opinions on many processes and the steps within them. There are other ways to remove any residual HCl as opposed to incinerating so there was some validity to my question."



> I do, in its place and time so would you all kindly stop assuming that I'm completely stupid? :evil: Just because I asked a question ? :lol: :lol:


I gather, from your comment, that you'll pick and choose what you think is the appropriate time to choose incineration, with no regard to what is considered acceptable by others. 

You make it pretty hard to not think of you as a fool when you utter comments such as I quoted. 
One of the things that gets my attention is anyone who comes to this forum and thinks themselves clever, posting comments that tend to be less than acceptable, in particular, for those who come here to learn. The one, above, is a classic example. It's as if you're trying to lend credence to your less than proper understanding of refining procedures, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, for the new guy to know what is and what isn't considered good procedure. 

If you're familiar with a process that equals incineration in the way of eliminating one acid before introducing another, by all means, make it known to all of the readers. If, on the other hand, you do not, please refrain from posting such comments, as they tend to lead to mass confusion for folks who hope to learn acceptable processes. 

You might understand that I'm less than impressed with anyone who professes to have "slightly differing opinions" where refining is concerned. There are processes that are known to yield acceptable results. Follow those processes until you are completely comfortable with refining, and you'll achieve the desired results. Get creative and arbitrarily disregard parts of any of the processes will most likely lead to less than acceptable results. 

So, my friend, I reject your notion that there are "differing opinions" as to processing. Those who assume that they are clever and arbitrarily make changes are generally the ones who fail in their quest, then they can't understand why. 

Harold


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## kurtak (Mar 2, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> If you're familiar with a process that equals incineration in the way of eliminating one acid before introducing another, by all means, make it known to all of the readers. If, on the other hand, you do not, please refrain from posting such comments, as they tend to lead to mass confusion for folks who hope to learn acceptable processes.
> 
> Harold



Correct as underlined above - which is why I asked Jon (spaceships) to share this info - simply telling me there is another way tells me nothing

Three years ago when I first came to this forum I read these 4 words that stuck in my mind - "incineration is your friend" --- after reading those words I paid close attention to the instructions I read concerning the How - When & Why of incineration

Having put those instructions of how - when & why into practice has proven those 4 words to be words of wisdom by a marked & noticed improvement in my refining outcome

Harold - I want to thank you for posting those 4 words - because I learned something from them - I learned that incineration is not just another step in the process but in fact - "incineration is my friend"

Kurt


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 2, 2014)

On electronics, the nominal thickness of a nickel migration barrier, between gold plating and copper, is only 50 micro". At 50 micro", the nickel plating will be somewhat porous. This link says that, if the service temp is greater than about 250F, both the nickel and gold thicknesses should be increased and pure gold plating should be used. Migration rate is proportional to the temperature. I don't know how hot he got those pins, but it was probably somewhere between 1200 and 2000F. At the higher temp range, I can easily see the Ni/Au, and/or, Cu/Ni, alloying somewhat (check phase diagram) and the nickel barrier between Au and Cu completely broken down.
http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/aurulrep.pdf

I've always used incineration for all types of jewelry sweeps, filings, and buffing dust. In that case, of course, it's a necessity. I've never used it in any part of karat gold refining and have never seen it done in any of the many refineries I've worked for or visited. I can see some merit in it, however, although I can't recall an instance in my refining life where it would have made any difference. I've always prided myself in being able to get all the of the gold and getting it pure, and was easily able to do that without incineration.

Pins are a different story. I think incineration of pins is a very bad idea. You probably end up with a mixture of Au, Au/Ni, Ni, Au/Cu, Cu/Ni/Au, Cu, and who knows what all and, to me, that just complicates a very simple thing. Several times over the years, I have taken pins from incinerated boards, refined them, and compared the results with the same pins that had not been incinerated. The incinerated pins always ran less and much less with cyanide stripping, my usual method of choice. I also remember dissolving some in AR, analyzing the solution on an AA, and they still ran a little less.

I've probably processed more pins than everyone else on the forum combined, although 4metals may be an exception. We often got 55 gal steel drums nearly full of nothing but pins, sometimes by the pickup load. They all were clean enough to directly process without incineration. A little soil won't hurt. If I were to get some pins packed in axle grease, I probably would use some chemical to clean them. Incineration would be my last choice.


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## Geo (Mar 2, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> On electronics, the nominal thickness of a nickel migration barrier, between gold plating and copper, is only 50 micro". At 50 micro", the nickel plating will be somewhat porous. This link says that, if the service temp is greater than about 250F.



Being the devils advocate here, the 250F was for an extended period. Long term usage may take more thickness than a short, very hot temperature. Is there any literature on the upper limits of the barrier failing due to increasing temperature and at what temperature it was when it failed.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 2, 2014)

Geo said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > On electronics, the nominal thickness of a nickel migration barrier, between gold plating and copper, is only 50 micro". At 50 micro", the nickel plating will be somewhat porous. This link says that, if the service temp is greater than about 250F.
> ...


I know of nothing in the literature. All nickel plating is not the same. This is mainly due to the myriad of different proprietary plating bath formulations available from the many manufacturers. All nickel solutions are doped with several proprietary organic additives (almost every manufacturer has their own, different, mix) to improve things like brightness and stress and to prevent things like pitting. These additives alter the grain structure differently, which would likely affect a lot of its particular properties.

I would imagine that the migration rate is geometric in its relationship to temperature. The rate would be much more than 2000/250 = 8 times the rate at 250F. It might be 100's of times faster. Also, after looking at all the phase diagrams, I feel that there could be some alloying between the metals. Also, as I said earlier, the very thin nickel is, at least, slightly porous. Also, all 3 metals are intimately attached to one another and the Au and Ni are super thin. The Ni is thicker but it would still take 20,000 sheets of it stacked up to make an inch.


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## Geo (Mar 2, 2014)

Great, so now we have the how and the where. All we are missing is the why and that's easy enough to fix for the future, don't incinerate using a torch. 8)


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## 4metals (Mar 2, 2014)

I think the differences of opinion that are emerging here are because we have two distinctly different types of refiners here. I can only comment from a perspective of a commercial refiner and generally GSP is commenting from the same perspective. 

I have worked in, owned, and designed for clients refineries with large incineration capacity, large stripping capabilities, and large digestion capabilities. In addition I am a strong advocate of analytical chemistry. When I set up a refinery I always stress the importance of an analytical lab. Not only to assay for settlement, to determine quantitatively the effectiveness of a process. A good analytical lab is essential to complete and cost effective processing. 

I have also stripped large lots of pins without incineration. My quick and dirty quantifier was to splash some water on the scrap. If the water beaded up the parts were roasted before processing. There is a world of difference between roasting and incinerating. 

Here on the forum we have refiners that have a lab consisting of a hood and a torch. For them, there is no such thing as roasting a lot before processing. For a larger well equipped refinery that routinely handles a wide variety of scrap for refining there are more, and much more effective, options. 

This thread is about a type of scrap that didn't even exist when Hoke wrote her book. Her book deals very well with jewelers sweeps, sink sludges and karat gold. Her descriptions for processing are spot on, sweeps are incinerated and there simply isn't much possibility of over incinerating it. And karat gold is rarely incinerated (with the possible exception of old gold filled which is nasty from body oils) and even then the material behaves best if melted into a homogeneous mixture and granulated for acid treatment. Unfortunately we cannot carry over all of Hokes suggestions to all of the scrap types discussed here on the forum. 

If you are refining in a small lab and your idea of incineration involves a torch and a frying pan, incineration in this case is likely to give you some insolubles that require reprocessing. That is a difference between a smaller refiner and a larger refiner. A small refiner processes your material and pays on out turn. (as in everything that does not come out as fine gold using your processing method is not paid on and essentially becomes eventual profit) A larger refiner generally processes material to a point where it can be sampled and paid on assay, with the possible exception of large lots of strippable goods such as drums of pins. 

There are many roads to a cost effective end in refining. The more of these roads your refinery can take, the more effective your process can be.


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## nickvc (Mar 2, 2014)

Like 4metals and GSP I have run a refinery and while I can see the need to find a route for the small home refiner there are methods and processes that work outside that which we all promote. The processes we all try to get people to follow work but become cumbersome in a production environment, workarounds exist which those that do process volumes use and find easier to reach the final goal. Volumes of materials present their own problems which need addressing to remain competetive within the business, not all these processes are suitable for the home refiner or hobbyist, the use of good assays and the ability to check the process is essential to ensure decent recovery of the values whilst pushing the materials through to keep your customer happy.
Modern recovery and refining isn't really like carat scrap refining the metals involved complicate the processes that our good friend Hoke promotes but her teachings still have value to allow all to follow the chemistry involved in the newer processes and why they work.
None of us know it all, there are many clever amateur and professional chemists here on the forum but I challenge all of the forum to claim they know better than anyone else, I learn virtually every day here and probably always will, different approaches aren't always wrong, sometimes a new view of an old process yields a better idea.
This is a science and by its nature it will evolve, not always in the way we predict or expect, remain open to new ideas, but always challenge dangerous processes or ideas and demand proof of the claims of successes or the chemical reasoning behind it.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 2, 2014)

Playing the physics advocate here... :mrgreen: 
Diffusion rates of solids in solids seems to follow exponential rates and as far as I can see approximately a tenfold increase in speed for every 100 degrees C increase in temperature.
So by raising the temperature from room temperature to 700 C (red glowing) we increase the diffusion rate 10.000.000 times.
That means 10 minutes of red glowing gives the same diffusion as 20 years at 120 C ( 250 F ).

This is an approximate calculation based on what numbers I could find in a short search on the net and could be really wrong. What I found was a diagram of diffusion constants for an alloy of 0-100% nickel with gold and the temperature dependent of diffusion rates for a number of non ferrous metals.

We will have some gold diffusing into the nickel and probably forming a colloidal solution of gold when the nickel is dissolved in acid but that should go through the filter and wash out with the fluids, not leaving such a lot of red sediments.

I'm starting to suspect litharge, lead oxide. It would have formed from the solder when it was incinerated the first time, although that would have been dissolved in the following HCl bath. It could also be some kind of iron oxide.
A couple of easy tests should bring a bit of clarity at least...
1. Take a small sample and put a drop of sulfuric acid on the pink residue. If it is colloidal gold it would not change color. As far as I can see litharge or lead oxide is reacting with strong acids and the sulfuric acid would turn it into white lead sulphate.
2. Take a small sample and put a couple of drops of HCl and a drop of HNO3 to form aqua regia. If the red material is colloidal gold it would dissolve in the acid, and you should be able to test it with stannous chloride.

Göran


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## ferrous (Mar 4, 2014)

Today test proved that it was colloidal gold 
I was able to recover the gold 
High heat for an extended time was the cause,
I learn from my mistakes and I'm glad I didn't do a large
Batch , today I did another 50gm test batch lightly heated pins with propane touch 
The pins had transmission oil on them, washed with water and soap rinsed well
Proceeded with hcl to remove all the solder, 50/50 nitric to remove base metal
Now I have nice clean foils  

Thanks a lot for the help 
Junior


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