# Gold flakes - worth buying?



## pudi.dk

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10g-grams-Pure-GOLD-Leaf-Flake-Bullion-scrap-/220736736573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3364ef4d3d#ht_3755wt_1139

No way this is 10k-24k of metallic gold flakes for that prce, or what?
Seems like I've missed something, he does however write:
"This beautiful gold leaf flake is not designed to be melted down. We do not make any claim as to the percentage of actual gold contained in this flake"

Would it be worth buying?


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## jimdoc

pudi.dk said:


> Would it be worth buying?



No.

Jim


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## Irons

pudi.dk said:


> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10g-grams-Pure-GOLD-Leaf-Flake-Bullion-scrap-/220736736573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3364ef4d3d#ht_3755wt_1139
> 
> No way this is 10k-24k of metallic gold flakes for that prce, or what?
> Seems like I've missed something, he does however write:
> "This beautiful gold leaf flake is not designed to be melted down. We do not make any claim as to the percentage of actual gold contained in this flake"
> 
> Would it be worth buying?


Gold is the color, not the content.


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## Drewbie

"Flake does contain actual gold"


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## Harold_V

Drewbie said:


> "Flake does contain actual gold"


Which, no doubt, magically disappears if you melt it. 
My money says stay away from deals like that. 

Harold


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## Drewbie

Absolutely. The BIN price says it all.


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## Oz

Drewbie, I am going to hold you to task for a moment. Seeing that you so readily said “absolutely” and agreed with Harold, why would you have originally posted “Flake does contain actual gold” to a new member here if you were aware of the typical deceptions perpetrated on the uninformed?

The primary purpose of this forum is to teach refining without all of the misinformation typically found on the net. Secondly we try to keep those new to precious metals with easy money in their sights from falling for the typical scams. I personally would be amazed if someone were to purchase 100 lots from different sellers of “24K gold flake” if they recovered 1 gram of gold per 100 grams of flake. It is for this reason that I cry foul as to your first post in this thread as it would only have encouraged pipe dreamers when now you are clearly stating that you knew better in the first place.

After all sea water contains “some” gold.


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## goldsilverpro

Total scam and the seller is a total liar. This is easily proven by doing the math and by knowing that there's never a free lunch in this type of stuff. These guys buy imitation gold flake (copper alloy) in bulk, which costs them about $.75/gram, and try to double their money. They might add a pinch (a few cents worth) of real leaf just so the statement, "flake does contain actual gold", is true. Also, 10K leaf (if they even make it) would be nearly a white color. I've done a lot of posting on this scam. Search for gold flake under my name.

Oz, Drewbie was just quoting what it said in the listing.


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## Drewbie

Oz said:


> Drewbie, I am going to hold you to task for a moment. Seeing that you so readily said “absolutely” and agreed with Harold, why would you have originally posted “Flake does contain actual gold” to a new member here if you were aware of the typical deceptions perpetrated on the uninformed?


That's a very reasonable question.

When I read the eBay auction, I swear it read "flakes do not contain actual gold", and I cut and pasted it into the thread to prove it was a scam. I was wondering why no one else picked up on that sentence - the guy was admitting right there that they had no gold in them!

It wasn't until I saw my actual post later that I realised I'd mis-read it. I put it down to probably being 4am in the morning when I looked at the eBay page and maybe some sort of psychological brain stuff where you see what you want to see on a page when you should really be in bed curled up fast asleep.

My apologies.


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## jimdoc

Drewbie said:


> I put it down to probably being 4am in the morning when I looked at the eBay page and maybe some sort of psychological brain stuff where you see what you want to see on a page when you should really be in bed curled up fast asleep.
> 
> My apologies.




Its that 4am psychological brain stuff that the seller probably counts on to find buyers.

Jim


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## pudi.dk

Thanks for the replies, did the right thing asking here.
It bothers me that it's hard to get from the description, that this isn't in fact metallic gold, but something else.
The only thing that says otherwise is my previous quote from the seller, and the actual price of the product.

- Nic


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## patnor1011

A lot of auctions are worded exactly for that purpose - to deceive buyer. It is better to read slow, think and if it do not look right just watch item for some time. Do not buy items on impulse.


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## butcher

If it sounds too good to be true......


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## Harold_V

jimdoc said:


> Its that 4am psychological brain stuff that the seller probably counts on to find buyers.
> 
> Jim


To say nothing of the inherent greed many have. Regardless of how you spell it out, there's still a percentage of people that think there is a free lunch. 

Harold


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## pcecycle

I recently bought some junk silver off ebay and the seller included 12 vials of "gold flakes" as a freebie. Guess he was fishing for good feedback or just wanted to get rid of them. Out of curiosity, I dissolved the contents of one vial in HCL. In less than a minute, the flakes were gone, leaving what looked like tiny strips of clear plastic. The solution was a pale yellow green and the stannous test was negative.

Mike


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## joem

pcecycle said:


> I recently bought some junk silver off ebay and the seller included 12 vials of "gold flakes" as a freebie. Guess he was fishing for good feedback or just wanted to get rid of them. Out of curiosity, I dissolved the contents of one vial in HCL. In less than a minute, the flakes were gone, leaving what looked like tiny strips of clear plastic. The solution was a pale yellow green and the stannous test was negative.
> 
> Mike



most likely foils stamp used for embossing during a printing process.


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## AuMINIMayhem

I bought a couple bottles a long time simply to experiment, knowing full well they would not contain much, if any gold. I only spent like 10 bucks at most. I was trying to figure out what the "source" of the "gold" was. I thought perhaps people were buying cheap (low karat) "gold" leaf and filling the bottles with that. 


What I found was ZERO gold and LOADS of copper. 

Shortly after, I was in a local art-supply store buying some supplies and saw they had "gold" leaf there, which to my surprise had "no gold content" listed on the package. After some quick googling, I found that indeed there is plenty of "gold toned leaf" out there which is predominantly copper/zinc/tin, etc. (basically that would make it brass, right?)


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## goldenchild

patnor1011 said:


> A lot of auctions are worded exactly for that purpose - to deceive buyer. It is better to read slow, think and if it do not look right just watch item for some time. Do not buy items on impulse.



If I have to read it more than once I skip it. Reading it more than once is when the 4am brain fart kicks in. Reading it over and over, you will eventually make it read what you want it to say. Especially if it's a too good to be true type deal. It's very easy to give a clear and concise description. 9 out of 10 times tricky verbiage is used purposely.


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## joem

Here is your anwser to the foils.
A layer of plastic covered with 
a thin layer of coloured foil on top of a thin layer of silver coloured backing with a final layer of heat setting glue (white)
I seriously doubt any real gold content since you can get these rolls in just about any metal colour.
14 rolls costs me only 20 dollars but we do use this for heat stamping images onto paper.
I can grind up 1000 grams of this stuff and sell it on ebay for .99 and still make a profit. :shock:
I'll post a picture when I get home.


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## jimdoc

Here is a picture of the gold leaf I bought a while back. As far as I know this is the only size you will find that is real. One pack of 25 leaves 3 3/8 x 3 3/8
weighed out at .35 grams after I stuffed them all in the little plastic bottle.

Sorry for the crappy webcam picture. But it will give others an idea of what to look for.

Jim


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## AuMINIMayhem

yep, 3 3/8" by 3 3/8" is the standard size for real gold leaf.. it will also have the karat, etc. listed on it. I've done the calculations and unless you wind up finding a cache of old leaf at some esate sale, or a starving artist whose getting rid of his stuff to pay the rent, you will more than likely pay about 2-3 times it's valued weight in gold. Leaf is a costly, time-consuming product to make.. 8)


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## goldsilverpro

AuMINIMayhem said:


> you will more than likely pay about 2-3 times it's valued weight in gold. Leaf is a costly, time-consuming product to make.. 8)



Yep! I've bought a lot of boxes (500 sheets/box) of real 23K leaf, for my signs. I have about 1/2 box left somewhere. The percentage premium is lower today, due to high gold prices, but it's probably at least double spot. When gold was in the 200s and 300s (not that many years ago), you paid 3 or 4 times spot.


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## 61 silverman

Hi All ; I recently delivered a piece of Bronze Art to a Gold Leaf Artist in Portland Ore. While I was there she showed me a Sample Book that contained maybe40 or so different Gold Leaf Shades and % AU- AG -CU .. Many of them had no Cu only Au -Ag . This sample book listed all the percentages of each of there product ( different foils). I was very interested in the many different %'s available.. She told me most of the time " ALL THE SCRAPS ARE THROWN AWAY..." She then told me she had at one time taken some of the foils that had been saved, had them melted and assayed, the result's were a 20 gram button with a purity of 87.5.. the foil was from 22.5 k foils.. even with the 1Karat lenience I have heard of, the purity is lower than stated.. She told me that all of the suppliers are in CHINA. Driving all others out with their ways of doing buisness.. Now for the good part.. I asked her if she would just save the scraps I would be able too refine it too pure gold for 25% of recovered gold.. She is off this week too do a job that will take 25,000 sheets from booklets.. 22k.. granted the weight is small, in the amount of those sheets that are overlap that becomes scrap! As we all know accumalation is the name of the game.After I get the batch of foils I will put up a picture for all too see..
Mark


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## Harold_V

I'd like to remind readers that I recovered 2-5/16 troy ounce of gold from gold leaf when they gold leafed the back wall of the stage at Symphony Hall in Salt Lake City, Utah. 

Harold


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## 61 silverman

Harold ; Your story of what you and your wife had collected, on that clean -up has been stuck in my head since my early days on the forum.. With that story in mind, I was encouraged to pursue refining the scraps from this artist.. If she is able too collect up the scraps she may be pleasantly surprised with her return and me with mine.. 

Too all members :: The only time you should pursue These foils is when you are POSSITIVE of the source.. As it has been said many times you cannot tell by looking at it, if it contains any PM's!. Know your source.!!. There is also Silver foils as well as a palladium foil, which actually has a bit of a pink cast..

Next time I go too her shop, I will try too remember to take my camera.. Photo the sample pages and post.. 
Mark


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## AuMINIMayhem

I used to find loads of stuff at the old antique and consignment shops that had tons of gold or silver leaf on them and they were pretty much in the junk bin sections. They were such gaudy pieces that people just considered them "trash".. now some of the same types of items are prominently displayed and the prices have gone through the roof. I don't bother anymore, but I used to be able to find stacks of old, broken gilded picture frames, art-deco lamps that didn't work, and really tack plates with loads of gold on them for .75-$1 a pop. Over time I collected quite a bit of that "junk", very cheaply (sometimes even for free!) and was able to recover quite a bit of gold from them... not anymore... sigh..


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## MoonShad0w

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I bought 10g of gold flake from an online store belonging to the same ebay seller. The flakes do not appear to react in HCl 9.9%, but I will leave some overnight and see what happens. Where should I buy stannous chloride in Sydney? Better yet, tin powder and some stronger HCl (also nitric acid)?


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## goldsilverpro

MoonShad0w said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but I bought 10g of gold flake from an online store belonging to the same ebay seller. The flakes do not appear to react in HCl 9.9%, but I will leave some overnight and see what happens. Where should I buy stannous chloride in Sydney? Better yet, tin powder and some stronger HCl (also nitric acid)?



If they were 22K-24K, you would have paid at least twice spot, or about $1100 for the 10 grams. Since you probably only paid $10-$15, you got imitation gold leaf in flake form, a copper alloy that looks like gold. What did you pay?


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## MoonShad0w

About $11; I was aware at time of purchase that what I was buying probably had little, if any, gold content. I figured it'd be fun to play with anyway. The HCl with immersed flakes seems to have taken on a blue-green tint, and some of the flakes have broken up, but not all. I assume, based on my limited knowledge of chemistry, that this indicates the presence of copper. Confirmation of any gold content will have to wait until I get some AR and stannous.

I have just downloaded Hoke's book, will begin reading within the next 7 days.


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## butcher

"I have just downloaded Hoke's book, will begin reading within the next 7 days."

That is a good investment.


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## TXWolfie

I get a kick out of this statement lemme copy and paste for a sec


YOU ARE BIDDING ON: <--------------------------( no I am not)

10 grams - 24k GOLD Flake <--------------------( seems like a bargain so far)

This GOLD FLAKE looks great <--------------( doesnt all gold look great)

$$gold flake$$<------------------------------------( So far so good)

This GOLD Flake consists of several grades of flake 

from 10k to 24k. <----------------------( well thats a good thing)

-Flake does contain actual gold *<--------( wait I thought he just said it contains several grades of gold flake)*
( So if it contains NO ACTUAL GOLD how does he know what K it is, or even if there is a k at all)

*This guy should so be turned in for blatent false advertising in misleading the consumer*


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## macfixer01

TXWolfie said:


> I get a kick out of this statement lemme copy and paste for a sec
> 
> 
> YOU ARE BIDDING ON: <--------------------------( no I am not)
> 
> 10 grams - 24k GOLD Flake <--------------------( seems like a bargain so far)
> 
> This GOLD FLAKE looks great <--------------( doesnt all gold look great)
> 
> $$gold flake$$<------------------------------------( So far so good)
> 
> This GOLD Flake consists of several grades of flake
> 
> from 10k to 24k. <----------------------( well thats a good thing)
> 
> -Flake does contain actual gold *<--------( wait I thought he just said it contains several grades of gold flake)*
> ( So if it contains NO ACTUAL GOLD how does he know what K it is, or even if there is a k at all)
> 
> *This guy should so be turned in for blatent false advertising in misleading the consumer*




Well good luck with that. Ebay has a mechanism for reporting auctions making false claims, selling illegal or restricted items, shill bidding, and so on. In my 12 years on Ebay I've only seen maybe 5 or 6 auctions that were so egregious that they prompted me to contact Ebay. Of those none were ever cancelled and all went on to completion, I never even received the courtesy of a personal email reply regarding any of them. However one of my recent auctions was cancelled because I had listed an item in an antique category which I still believe it to be (and as it was advertised when I originally bought the item on Ebay) but one of their precious power sellers apparently claimed it's a reproduction. Not that Ebay will even tell me who it was or what they said. Probably the same ass who contacted me right after the sale was cancelled offering to buy the item for next to nothing outside of Ebay.


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## goldsilverpro

I just typed in gold flake on Ebay and got 1619 hits. Except for those very few selling small nuggets and calling them gold flakes and maybe a dozen, or more, other exceptions, I doubt if ANY of these actually contain ANY gold.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=gold+flake&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Here's one that sounds like it may be real. The problem is that he doesn't give the weight. A sheet of real gold leaf, from most manufacturers, is 3-3/8" x 3-3/8", about .000004" thick, and weighs about .015g. Therefore, at a $1750 market, a sheet contains about $.84 worth of gold and would cost about double that to buy it. One sheet of 24K gold leaf, crumbled or torn up, would provide more than enough flakes to fill that vial, I would think.

He mentions that real gold leaf will "disappear" when rolling it between your thumb and index finger, whereas imitation leaf won't. There is some truth to that, since the good imitation leaf is at least 4 to 6 times thicker than real leaf. The phony leaf from most sellers is probably thicker than that. The real leaf doesn't really "disappear", it just forms a tiny ball that you can hardly see. A 3-3/8" x 3-3/8" sheet of 24K leaf, when rolled and compressed, forms a sphere with about a 1/50" radius, if my math is right. If you just rolled a few flakes between your thumb and finger, as he seems to suggest, the resulting sphere would be nearly invisible.

I'm going to email this guy, right now, and ask him the total weight of flake in a vial.

http://cgi.ebay.com/real-24k-gold-leaf-nugget-flake-filled-jar-amazing-deal-/250870423460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3a690adfa4


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## Harold_V

I have a packet of gold leaf, and used to demo that very thing. Truth is, it does disappear. As you know, gold leaf is so thin it appears purple when viewed with light at the rear. That's why they cover gold leaf on windows with black paint. It is also perforated in many places, so it is readily destroyed, assuming it doesn't start to roll up. 

Anyway, I did the thing with a sheet of gold leaf maybe a dozen times. Only once did it fail to disintegrate fully, and that time yielded the tiny ball of gold you spoke of. Much smaller than you indicated, by the way. More like about .020" in diameter, if that. The .05" radius you spoke of would yield a ball over 3/32" in diameter---way too large for a sheet of true gold leaf. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro

Harold_V said:


> I have a packet of gold leaf, and used to demo that very thing. Truth is, it does disappear. As you know, gold leaf is so thin it appears purple when viewed with light at the rear. That's why they cover gold leaf on windows with black paint. It is also perforated in many places, so it is readily destroyed, assuming it doesn't start to roll up.
> 
> Anyway, I did the thing with a sheet of gold leaf maybe a dozen times. Only once did it fail to disintegrate fully, and that time yielded the tiny ball of gold you spoke of. Much smaller than you indicated, by the way. More like about .020" in diameter, if that. The .05" radius you spoke of would yield a ball over 3/32" in diameter---way too large for a sheet of true gold leaf.
> 
> Harold



Harold,

I didn't say .05". I said about 1/50", which is about .02", a little shy of 3/64" dia. When I first did the math, even that seemed high to me, since I have also done it a bunch of times. I know that 1000 sheets weigh about 15g, at most, and one sheet about .015g. From that, you can calculate the radius. I redid the math and still got close to a .02" radius.

BTW, the guy emailed me back and said that there were between 7-10 sheets of gold leaf in that vial. I didn't think to ask him the size of the sheets. Although the much more common European leaf is 3-3/8" square, there is Japanese leaf that is much smaller. Who knows?

Here's what most all of those other guys sell in vials or by the gram. Zero gold!
http://www.artistcraftsman.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=288_325&products_id=4490&zenid=qro8kfdklirkrp40iuvs7rcd83


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## Harold_V

goldsilverpro said:


> Harold,
> 
> I didn't say .05". I said about 1/50", which is about .02", a little shy of 3/64" dia.


<<<<<<sigh>>>>>>

 

Yep! You certainly did. I managed to read it wrong. Sorry. 

Harold


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## rasanders22

Some quick math.

Volume of that gold leaf is .0045 cubic inches.

4/3*pie*r^3 is the volume of a sphere so .000045=4/3*pie*r^3
r=.022 inches or .0005 meters. 
From top to bottom it would be .044 inches in diameter. The common household staple is about .071 inches in diameter. So think half the size of the cross section of a staple. 



goldsilverpro said:


> I just typed in gold flake on Ebay and got 1619 hits. Except for those very few selling small nuggets and calling them gold flakes and maybe a dozen, or more, other exceptions, I doubt if ANY of these actually contain ANY gold.
> 
> http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=gold+flake&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
> 
> Here's one that sounds like it may be real. The problem is that he doesn't give the weight. A sheet of real gold leaf, from most manufacturers, is 3-3/8" x 3-3/8", about .000004" thick, and weighs about .015g. Therefore, at a $1750 market, a sheet contains about $.84 worth of gold and would cost about double that to buy it. One sheet of 24K gold leaf, crumbled or torn up, would provide more than enough flakes to fill that vial, I would think.
> 
> He mentions that real gold leaf will "disappear" when rolling it between your thumb and index finger, whereas imitation leaf won't. There is some truth to that, since the good imitation leaf is at least 4 to 6 times thicker than real leaf. The phony leaf from most sellers is probably thicker than that. The real leaf doesn't really "disappear", it just forms a tiny ball that you can hardly see. A 3-3/8" x 3-3/8" sheet of 24K leaf, when rolled and compressed, forms a sphere with about a 1/50" radius, if my math is right. If you just rolled a few flakes between your thumb and finger, as he seems to suggest, the resulting sphere would be nearly invisible.
> 
> I'm going to email this guy, right now, and ask him the total weight of flake in a vial.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/real-24k-gold-leaf-nugget-flake-filled-jar-amazing-deal-/250870423460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3a690adfa4


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