# Metal prices.



## nickvc (Mar 9, 2021)

It seems to me that the western markets seem very keen to depress the prices but when the eastern markets open the prices rise, wonder who to believe in this scenario :shock:
Do I think people are trying to manipulate the market.....


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## jimdoc (Mar 9, 2021)

I think people are trying to manipulate everything.


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## butcher (Mar 9, 2021)

"Think" they are? 
They just are. 

Something "smells" like we will soon see big changes in the metals and the markets.
We have already seen a difference in the toilet paper market, but something makes me believe this is not the last disruption or discussion over the paper.

Something tells me to "think" that those holding onto at least some of the metals, and has at least some education of these metals, will be glad they did.


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## Yggdrasil (Mar 9, 2021)

I have been a bit baffled at times.
For the most of the time I follow the Rhodium and Palladium prices.
The price may have been stable for days, and during the night it has dropped or climbed substantially.
Even when I thought the marked was closed, which has led me to wonder about when the marked opens and closes.
Obviously these events happen around closing or opening times.

So:
When does Kitco actually open and when do it close?
Is this time zone dependent?
Just curious


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## Lino1406 (Mar 10, 2021)

Market's closures, and Fridays, in short narrow volumes are the speculators friends


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## Yggdrasil (Mar 10, 2021)

Correlates well with what I've seen


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## butcher (Mar 10, 2021)

Banks of countries selling off gold reserves hoping to keep their paper and stock Ponzi schemes looking like they still hold value, creating low physical gold prices and keeping the wool over the population's eyes, how big will the balloon get, how much more worthless will our paper get, we used to carry our money in our pocket, we will soon need a wheel-borrow to take enough paper money to the town to buy a piece of bread.

Those who do not learn from their mistakes or failures will repeat them.


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## Lino1406 (Mar 10, 2021)

And now the "conservative" banks buy virtual money coordinatively with our money, so even if it is another mistake, it will be thrown on us. If not, the gain is theirs


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## kurtak (Mar 10, 2021)

nickvc said:


> Do I think people are trying to manipulate the market.....



No - they would never do that would they - after all they have our best interest at heart - don't they :lol: :lol: :shock: :roll: :twisted: :twisted: 

Kurt


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## alexxx (Mar 10, 2021)

Yeah, well, just try to sell Rh these days... No broker wants to touch it. Talking about manipulation, in the last 8 months or so I see Rh jumping from 1k to 12k, and now in the last 48hrs 26800 ask... crazy...


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## Lou (Mar 10, 2021)

Part of the liquidity issue with Rh is the fact that the line to get outturn on useable physical product that can be put into autocatalyst (chlororhodic acid) is very long. This makes it take a long time to get paid on Rh and a lot of downside risk on assay...


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## alexxx (Mar 10, 2021)

Lou said:


> Part of the liquidity issue with Rh is the fact that the line to get outturn on useable physical product that can be put into autocatalyst (chlororhodic acid) is very long. This makes it take a long time to get paid on Rh and a lot of downside risk on assay...



I get that, but do you think this commodity is manipulated on top?


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## butcher (Mar 10, 2021)

I just can't figure it out? Those who create problems are the very ones who come to solve the problem (but never seem to find a real solution), seems those creating problems or those creating so much debt are those who are profiting now or those who plan on profit soon from that debt, or those who buy and sell our debt.
The solutions to the problems become the problems :?: :? 

kinda reminds me of the bully or that kid learned early how to get the other kids lunch-money (or the gold they needed to be able to eat their lunches).
Looks like some of these kids are trying to get all of the marbles.

Metals well they are rare, man has always found the metals useful and thus hold value, it has always held good value as an exchange for goods and always will, metals are key to our survival, our security, metals in a way are power, as well can help to generate power as well as wealth, or help to feed your family during troubled times, or can help to keep a country afloat...

Educate yourself as much as you can about these metals (not just how to dissolve them in some kind of fuming magic royal water) but their historical and possible true value, (not only in dollars but for many uses)in these times the more we understand about the metal the more useful they will be to us.


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## kurtak (Mar 11, 2021)

butcher said:


> Metals well they are rare, man has always found the metals useful and thus hold value, it has always held good value as an exchange for goods and always will, metals are key to our survival, our security, metals in a way are power, as well can help to generate power as well as wealth, or help to feed your family during troubled times, or can help to keep a country afloat...



per the underlined - In the past (including very recent/current past) that has been true - gold/silver as an investment has always been a "hedge" against inflation - holding some - long term has always been a sure bet because long term inflation has always been a sure thing so it has always been a "go to" for big money players as a hedge against inflation

There is a new player in town - its crypto currency - we are headed for a HUDGE amount of inflation - but the big money players are not "going to" gold/silver - they are "going to" crypto currency

If big money goes to (invests in) crypto - "instead" of gold/silver then the market on gold/silver doesn't move so they can hold (manipulate) the value "down" 

That's why (at least in part) why - even though inflation is already upon us (& JUST getting started) gold & silver is actually going down when it should be going up

But hang on to your gold & silver - it is going to go up - it just likely not going to keep pace with inflation like it used to --- with crypto now in the game - gold/silver is likely to become less of an investment to hedge against inflation & more of just another commodity

At least that is the way FOX Business News has been telling the story lately

Kurt


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## kurtak (Mar 11, 2021)

Recently my metal investment has been in brass/lead :wink: :mrgreen: 

Buying as many pounds as I can every two weeks when I get my pay check

Kurt


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## Lou (Mar 11, 2021)

Glad to hear you can even find that.

Talk about ROI...if I had purchased brass and lead in fabricated, useful form a few years/administrations' back I'd be RICH!


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## alexxx (Mar 11, 2021)

kurtak said:


> Recently my metal investment has been in brass/lead :wink: :mrgreen:
> 
> Buying as many pounds as I can every two weeks when I get my pay check
> 
> Kurt



Brass has been good to me. Made a huge payout sitting on aluminum and buying dirt cheap in the last year. Aluminum back up made my year... There is a good window now for brasses and coppers, scrap prices are still decent while the commodity is at high prices. Hope the market stays strong for a couple months in order to milk it a bit more...


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## kurtak (Mar 12, 2021)

Copper sure is doing good

30 day copper has gone from $3.75 - $4.10 - that's up 35 cents

60 day is up from $3.55 = up 65 cents

6 month its up about a dollar

1 year its up about $ 2

My 500 pound stash of copper is looking really good right now considering I paid nothing for it in the first place :mrgreen: 

And I don't think the up trend is over --- they are going to need a LOT of it to build the "New Green Deal" infrastructure

Kurt


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## butcher (Mar 12, 2021)

The big players may be investing in computer currency, but I do not see that much different than I see fiat, or stock currency's, or any other " so-called money" the big guys may be able to move their wealth, they may be able to get theirs out of the bank as soon as they are beginning to shut the bank's doors while the poor man may not be able to get his fiat, cash, stock. or bitcoins when those doors close.



I have to admit I do not know anything about crypto, or stocks, it may be a great gamble if you are good at that game, or Know as the poker player said as long you know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em

Big boys would point me to stock and fiat gold along with the bitcoin dollars, they may be able to cash in on that game, but I will not gamble on it.

I say if you have played the cards and have money on the table in bitcoins, cashing in now and buying elemental gold or silver or even copper may be a good investment, just my personal belief that the bitcoin will not float any more than the Venezuela new currency will in the future, or much like any other world currency has a limited lifespan.


Something tells me all the big boys are trying to pull the wool over our eyes so we cannot see the glimmer of elemental gold atoms.
I hear Venezuela, is also coming up with a new better currency too.

If it is not elemental or backed by something real, then how real is it?

I think I will trust in the elements of the earth (atoms of pure elemental gold), as an elemental element, a man in all of his work or study of this element or basic atom found on earth and all of his science and study cannot duplicate the properties of gold or silver, the same holds true with many of the metals.

Gold silver and copper being very unreactive elements could be found by the first men on earth soon after he started using rocks for tools, it was valuable to him who had this metal as a useful tool, and was wanted by others who could use it as a tool or as a commodity or as a valuable item for trade, the man who had a copper axe then he had something of the true value a metal which would hold its wealth be used to barter, something others needed or could use.

Today that cave mans gold or the copper axe will still be useful and hold value since that first caveman used his gold or his copper axe for "Money" a well as a useful trade or commodity itself to make other tools, No other money has held the value throughout mans history as these metals we can hold today or will be worth in the future, all other currencies have failed, and history repeats.

Elemental metal, elemental atoms from the earth, salts of this earth, rare, hard to get, taking a lot of labor or work to get, always have been a good way for man to store his work ( his wealth or labor) tangible and real, trade items, extremely useful to man and his progress, has always been a form of value or trade for others work or commodities.

These metal atoms not only make up our tools but also function as medicine and will always hold your wealth or your labor.

Gamble as you will, I am gonna bet on the atoms of these metals, they were here in the beginning and will be here in the end with a proven history to help mankind, I am figuring they will still be worth something tomorrow, I cannot say I believe that about any other kind of " money" or bitcoins.

Maybe it is just me if I cannot hold in my hand and see it, and know it to show from my own experience to be useful and hold value, and be of something I can trust, have available when needed then, and have some understanding of, I cannot see putting my labor or future, or use to store hard-earned wealth or security into such as the Venezuelan dollar or the bitcoin.

Just my two copper slugs


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## nickvc (Mar 13, 2021)

Richard I’m like you I do not fully understand crypto but one thing I watched told me it’s based on currencies, dollars, pounds or euros so to me it seems just as much a risk as holding fiat in any other form, it’s a gamble as you said if you can jump ship when you need or want to I guess fine but what do you put that paper into to ensure you have something of value for the future, for me certainly not paper metals.


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## butcher (Mar 13, 2021)

401K retirement plans and other retirement plans, In ways, I feel we almost are forced have to play a game that is rigged, we work to save (store what we have earned with our labor) our savings are penalized or taxed if we want to hold them ourselves or invest them in another form such as something real like physical gold or physical land...

Our retirement savings are in a way held for ransom to be used by others, as a way for them to make money from loaning our savings to others. Sure we can decide which company we choose to allow to play with our savings, but we cannot really decide what we can do with the savings of our labor unless we choose to lose some of it through being taxed excessively for not letting them profit from our labor,

What is going to happen with all of the baby boomers, when their saving is basically nothing but a promise, basically just being held in a stock market type market or Ponzi game. considering what has happened in our past when the market crashes or the banks all of a sudden decide to shut their doors, and we cannot access our savings but find we that may have lost it in some kind of reset, and this game comes to an end all of a sudden. 

Many of these games we are forced to play (or taught to play blindly) are rigged against our favor so that others can profit from our labor.

If it is not physical, or if you cannot hold it in your hand is it really real? I fear when that when a reset, a stock market crash, or through hyperinflation as or our government's paper money press work overtime to lead us into hyperinflation, many who do not have their savings in their hands may lose their ability to live off their own hard work in their older years when they are not able to earn their bread as they did in their youth.

Metals and land are real, I can hold them in my hand, I took a big loss in taxes and penalties when I took my retirement out of the stock Ponzi game, or out of the game where some other companies have use of my money for their own profit, But now I have something physical, land and gold, that I have more control over and more likely to profit from, or at least store all of that hard work of my youth in savings and of something real and tangible.

To me, gold is not money, just as I do not consider land as money, but a gift from our maker for us to use wisely and for good. But then again what better money could you have in your pocket in times like these or what we have seen in the past history or which we may soon be seeing again in our near future.


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## kurtak (Mar 13, 2021)

Just for the heck of it - here is a bitcoin chart If you move you mouse along the graph line it will tell you the weekly price change)

in September 2010 it was 6 cents per coin --- today it is over $57,000 per coin

if you had bought $6 of coin back then (100 coin) you would now be worth 5,700,000

IF (the big IF) I (we) had known then what we know now :shock: 

Just in the last year it has gone up around 51,000 :shock: 

Just saying :?: --- more to come :wink: 

Kurt


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## butcher (Mar 13, 2021)

If in one hand, and nothing in the other, a wish in one hand and shh in the other.
Risky gambles offer risky returns.

When I look at those numbers of returns, I see a really big gamble to put your money into.
I do not feel I have luck and I choose not to gamble, I do not spend a quarter dollar gambling on winning the publishing clearinghouse check and having TV cameras at my door, my quarter dollars went into land or gold, what I feel is more of a sure bet.
we all have to choose where we spend our quarter dollars, or if we wish to gamble and what on.

Before 1929 many saw their stocks hit all-time highs, all the folks were borrowing money to ante up and put their chips into the gamble on those winning numbers, some did good and we're lucky, but in the end, most lost all they had worked for and found it hard to feed themselves.

Most lost that gamble, those who had some land or gold at least had more of a chance of survival and in some cases profited from having something physical to trade for bread or to grow their food...

Which is best for you? A bird in your hand you can eat, or two bigger birds in the bush, gold in your hand, or bigger numbers in the bush.


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## kurtak (Mar 14, 2021)

might find this interesting

I did a search to see how many ozt of paper gold there is for every ozt of physical gold

in other words ETF gold (or Exchange Trade Fund gold) which would be the physical gold the traders physically hold compared to the paper they trade (sell) on the physical holding

In my search I typed in the year 2020 for paper vs physical but the closest I could find for real numbers was 2016 - most of the results where about "why" you should invest in ETF gold (in other words why you should buy paper gold with the promise that the seller will hold the physical for you - which we know is a lie)

:arrow: https://www.birchgold.com/physical-vs-paper-gold/

in that article (the part of interest) says ------------

Gold certificates

Gold certificates are pieces of paper that can be redeemed for gold.

In the gold certificate market, there is not enough registered gold backing the certificates that are currently being sold and traded. In 2012, there were about 20 claims on COMEX on every one ounce of physical gold in its registered inventories. Four years later, in 2016, the number for COMEX ballooned to 550 paper ounces outstanding for every physical ounce of gold.

That was 4 years ago - wonder where that (550) number is now

but even at the 2016 number - at todays gold price ($1,700/ozt) X 550 = $935,000 per ozt physical :shock: 

Kurt


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## alexxx (Mar 14, 2021)

kurtak said:


> might find this interesting
> 
> I did a search to see how many ozt of paper gold there is for every ozt of physical gold
> 
> ...



I doubt these numbers are even close to the truth.. why would they be? I don't trust any of their numbers.
I believe they just have no freakin idea.
Gambling & stealing... numbers don't matter as long as the ponzy scam keeps going on and they can high five each other at lunch while popping a 8k bottle just for fun.


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## nickvc (Mar 14, 2021)

What you mean there isn’t enough gold to cover all that paper gold :shock: :roll:


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## butcher (Mar 14, 2021)

How can I cash in during a time of need? Will I have to wait in line at an ATM for hours on end to get only pennies of my savings each day? Will I be able to cash in on bitcoins if my phone does not work? How many farmers will take my bitcoin for the food or eggs I need, will my neighbor exchange his currency for mine/
I haven't seen too many gas stations or stores that take those coins...

Although then again, try taking an American Gold Eagle coin to taco bell and buy a taco with it, the cashier will tell look at you with a blank stare, then confused, after determining you are serious, she states that she can not take that kind of legal tender, so you try to tell her it is gold money, and she says she has no idea of its value, she can not take your gold coin for a taco, that she needs a couple of dollar bills with dead men's faces printed by the government, on green paper, or that she can take major credit cards, or some other type of card to put into her machines that does the figuring for her... Take that same gold coin out onto the street and ask people which they would rather have the gold coin or a sugar-sweet chocolate candy bar with nuts, guess which one they choose???
I guess they just like nuts in candies.

I do not understand it, being an ole poor country boy, I never thought that much about money, except that I never had any, and I had to produce a heck of a lot of sweat to get some to buy anything worth something to me or to feed our family, I never cared to learn about money except what work I could do to get some to survive, as long as I had enough to feed my family, and the more I now learn about it the more I see people, for the most part, do not really know much about it at all either, although I believe they are lead to believe they do, lead like sheep for slaughter... from what I can tell only a few at the packing plant cashing in on them thar sheepskins.

My goal has never been to get rich, if it was I would focus on controlling others' debt, or learning to play with others' hard-earned wealth, or learning to play or gamble in the rigged games...

I just want to preserve what I have worked so hard for and get a fair return for my labor.
Gold is like Taters or mater's (tomatoes and potatoes for the city folks here), plant it in the ground and tomorrow you will have something to eat, what you work for today will you can pay for your food tomorrow, Elemental money made of the elements, its elemental money or a store of your labor, and security for your survival or security...

How many of those big players are playing the game to get all of the gold? I see they have many tools and tricks to get it too, such as paper, stocks, bonds, insurance, specialized plans like medical, bitcoins, gold and silver paper ounces ( I never had one, but I doubt that paper weighs a full ounce), taxes outright theft, well the list goes on, those guys are not worried about feeding their family, and they can care less if you can feed yours.

I say plant your gold deep, plant your potatoes above that, sell or trade your bitcoins for potatoes if you still can.


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## kurtak (Mar 15, 2021)

Butcher

For the most part - if not completely - I agree with everything you are saying - after all I am a simple country country boy my self & always have been --- I believe in working hard & that hard work & the things hard work earns me are my true value & I believe in owning out right that which my hard work earns me

In other words - if I hold it in my hands it is mine because my hard work ether pays for it out right because I have found that if I can't own it out right I ether don't need it or I can wait for it (Save any extra my hard work provides until the things I want can be paid for & owned out right) I don't believe in credit because I don't believe in paying someone else extra (interest) for the things I want --- why would I pay $110 (pay $10 interest) for something I can buy for $100 (by saving to buy out right)

I have watched to many people loose everything (they worked hard for) by putting their trust in the big money movers hands

On the other hand I have known people that have been VERY successful playing in that game - but they are few in number compared to the losers when you play in a game that is rigged --- if you don't understand the rules 

I don't understand the rules - so I simply don't play in that game - I work to hard for my money to gamble with it

Therefore - if I am going to own gold & silver I want to hold it in my hand

This thread was started by Nick posting -



> Do I think people are trying to manipulate the market.....



The answer to that "is of course they are" :!: 

It is ALL manipulated - whether its paper - digital - or physical 

Which is why I posted about crypto (digital) & ETF (paper) 

With digital/paper they are able to control/manipulate ALL THINGS physical (& that includes the paper they right laws on)

I mean think about it - if they could ONLY print 1 ozt gold paper for every 1 ozt physical gold they hold - the value of a physical ozt gold would be MUCH higher --- the value of physical is MUCH lower then it should be because they water its value down (manipulate its value) with many times more in paper then they actually hold

Its called FRAUD (if you & I do it) but they print on paper - laws that allow them and ONLY them to do such things in order to advance their own wealth & POWER

Thats all I have time for today - its time to go to work so I can "earn" something more that is physical & that I can hold in my hand at the end of the day

Kurt


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## snoman701 (Mar 15, 2021)

Lou said:


> Glad to hear you can even find that.
> 
> Talk about ROI...if I had purchased brass and lead in fabricated, useful form a few years/administrations' back I'd be RICH!



I've still got decades worth of that collected, more than a lifetime of everything.

I just wish I had put up a polebarn. I can't afford to buy lumber anymore.


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## butcher (Mar 15, 2021)

Lou, no doubt that the combination of metals will be as good as silver for trade.

If you owe for something it is not yours, you are renting to use it.
My guess is 70% of those who think they own their home in this country are renting from bankers who pull the strings, their stored labor or wealth is lost to interest, and its value is deflating, if you do not have something as collateral, skills to trade, gold or silver buried, some way to pay you are basically in the same bout as other renters who find themselves losing the roof over their head.

Pay off your debt.
if you have to raise 150 chickens and 40 rabbits in your garage, selling the eggs for $7,500 ($5/doz eggs), and the rabbits for $25.00 or for $25,000.
Well, you do not have to be a farmer, you can use any skill, but pay off your debt.
Where there is a will there is a way.
A man with a full stomach, cannot find a way, a hungry man will find it.
You have to be hungry and want it.
Hunger can make a man work hard to learn or gain the skills, or to give him drive he may not have with a full stomach.

So many today if they have not lost their home or job, or savings yet, could lose it easily lose all through debt.

Also do not become depressed like a pig, a pig can only see 15 inches above the ground, and nothing very far from him, hard times can blind a man to looking down at the ground all the time, opportunities well he blindly passes them by looking for a sweet treat, or something to eat, and misses his chance to prosper.

Hone your assets and get your ducks marching in a row, hone your labor skills, hone your attention on what is needed as just opposed as wanted, work on paying with your labor what you can afford and not what you want or pleases your ego, living below your means to get out of debt and concentrating on putting some of your excess labor away (saving your money, in something like burying your gold) (or growing chickens in your garage, to buy bread another day when the dollar cannot.


We have been tricked into play a game, we have been blinded just as they do pin the tail on the donkey, but I believe the game if we play it is rigged, we need to pull off our blinders and wake up, get out of debt so we can feed ourselves possibly have some for our neighbor and some of our previous labor ( buried gold) or another method to store what you are working for today to trade tomorrow.

Faith and morals can lead you through a hard time, that is if you not like the pig depressed and looking down all the time, hard work and skills are good as gold, develop your skills of survival, financially and so you can improve your finances, and ability to prosper, education This may be hardest for most as they do not know how to educate themselves (they have blinders on of the education systems) they have been lead to believe is learning, and often thinking themselves to smart to learn or just from laziness do not care to
I say it is harder to teach a college-educated man how to do a job than someone who has not gone to college, the college man does not want to spend his time learning and may have lost a lot of common sense.

History if all you learned of it was in school, then you do not really know much about it at all.
Economics well schools failed us there too (most likely by design).
If you believe you are educated based on schooling you may be fooling yourself, and you should rethink your position and commence to educate yourself.
Stop following others like sheep over the cliff, get out of debt.

I would like to see all of my friends here profit from their labor if it is in learning about gold along with them or helping them to see the chemistry differently.

Many of our members here are living in difficult situations, but we can all help to better ourselves and help each other.

Pay off your debt and store your wealth or your excess labor (your ability to buy bread tomorrow) in something that will be worth more tomorrow, not a gamble, but in a true historically proven storehouse for your labor, not investing in stocks or bitcoin or the casinos, or paper money in a bank.

Land, gold, silver, chickens, your skills, tools, shaped brass hulls and lead, copper, basically something that actually holds or increases in value, as it takes more and more dollars of your worthless money to buy bread or finish paying off your home.

With saved labor you have the ability to live through and possibly prosper in hard times, possibly having more of an ability to purchase land or a home in harder times...

Stop listening to the elite, follow what you know in your heart, empty your stomach so you are hungry enough to find a way.

I once was homeless with two small children, I stuck my hands to the grindstone, and each day got better than the one before, with faith and hard work I am out that whole, today I educate myself as much as I can to keep my ars out of that hole, and hopefully, I can also learn to help my neighbor out of his...

The right road is not very well-traveled, the big roads may lead you nowhere, the right road may seem slow or hard to get through, but have more rewards at the end.
If it is too easy I would be cautious what is the trick or game?

Too much coffee you say, well you should hear me when I get TWO-ooo-xxx much whiskey.


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## Lino1406 (Mar 16, 2021)

That was inspiring Butcher!


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## alexxx (Mar 16, 2021)

Lino1406 said:


> That was inspiring Butcher!



yes indeed. Wisdom and clarity. Anyone having a hard time these days or feeling insecurity regarding financial health should read Butchers post 2-3 times slowly. 

I once was rich, than dead poor with little/nothing to show for, besides debts. I educated myself the best I could, outside the classical classes, worked my ass off and today I feel like I could make it trough any type of disaster (including a decent sized meteor) with my little land, my buried stack, my chickens and rabbits and my skillset. 

Anyone who's hungry enough can make it from minus 50k to a couple 100k in tangible valuable assets in less than 5 years.

Knowledge is at our finger tips, tons of opportunities everywhere. Strange times, but anyone and everyone can pull it off. f you need to learn welding on youtube, do it. If you need to haul dead washing machines from the curbs, do it. 

I feel that there is no excuses in these modern times.


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## kurtak (Mar 16, 2021)

snoman701 said:


> I can't afford to buy lumber anymore.



And that is no bull - I am a carpenter - we are building a 3,000 Square foot timber frame house - thanks to covid it has been hard to even get materials - which has actually caused us to have to stop working on that project waiting on materials from time to time (thankfully we have a number of other projects so we always have work) - anyway - last mid summer a sheet of 1/2 inch OSB went from $15 per sheet to $25 per sheet - a couple weeks ago we had to pick up another unit of OSB & I was told it was now $50 per sheet

When we first started on the build it was supposed to be a $500,000 build --- I am betting when we are done it will be $750,000 or more - the price of ALL materials is going up by A LOT

Luckily the owner we are working for - $1,000,000 is pocket change to him so he doesn't even bat an eye at price - he is just frustrated at the job being slowed down by waiting on materials

Kurt


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## rickbb (Mar 16, 2021)

kurtak said:


> Recently my metal investment has been in brass/lead :wink: :mrgreen:
> 
> Buying as many pounds as I can every two weeks when I get my pay check
> 
> Kurt



I know people still sitting on what they horded for the Y2K end of the world event. And they are still stocking up for the next end of the world event. Seems to be one every 4 to 8 years for some odd reason. 8)


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## butcher (Mar 16, 2021)

Tomato plants.
Planting two one in a controlled environment in your home, give it tender care, tending to its every need.plant the other outdoors.

The plant outdoors experiences stress, hard times, it has to struggle for its survival, drought, the sun may cook its hide, the rain can almost drown its root system, the hail beats at it, the frost biting at its tips as it shivers through the long frigid nights.

The plant grown inside thrives, its leaves are green and undamaged, it has very little stress as it is well provided for, its roots do not have to search for water, its root system does not grow muscles in working for nutrients, its skin is undamaged, but it quickly cries if any little need is not met.

Guess what happens if we trade places with these plants, the nursed plant cannot survive the outdoors, or any neglect, it has no muscles to overcome stress or a hard time, it cannot develop to prosper, or get out of the death spiral of its life, and may struggle to its end.

Guess which tomato plants will bear sweeter fruit?

we are not far from being tomato plants, we have generations that have been nursed to their own demise, they have lost their root system.

Others of us have been hardened by life's trials and can survive a storm or two and still bear good fruit.

A poor kid who eats dirt, and does not get sick but develops a healthy immune system, where a nursed child kept in an unnaturally clean environment and never having an empty belly, and experiences no hunger in life can develop all kinds of allergies and infections, dietary problems or cannot deal with the environment.

social I do not know the words, or government, or these kinds of programs can grow tomatoes that can not handle a storm.
Many who think they are poor have no idea what real poverty is, they have food in their bellies, the care of the programs meant to help the plants thrive is the very thing that weakens the development of their root systems disabling them into true poverty, the sad thing is they learn street smarts of survival and like the pig cannot see 14 inches above the ground, when they get in a pit they cannot see above to get out.

I grew up in poor poverty, but I have never been poor, many a time I had nothing to eat as a child, but I was not poor. homeless as an adult with no job or prospects for any, or having trouble keeping my children fed (even with the help of roadkill), or a rifle and hoe or plow. but never poor, poverty is a state of mind, as is depression which may be two sides of the same coin, or at least they seem to pack around the barnyard together stomping them tomato plants.

What the heck is going on it's like the whole world is depressed, in chaos and turmoil, the man seems to have become sheep, even the rich are poor, up is down and Good is Bad.

Man has the potential, the world can support us all and do so well, the earth can easily feed us all and shelter us all and do so sustainably if we could only wake up.

Give a hungry man some food every day, and he will come to expect it (resenting you) because you disable him by keeping his gut full, you take the hunger that would drive him to provide his own food, or get out of the pits we put him into.

I thank my Maker that I do have stress in life, how else are we to grow muscles, and gain our strong roots.
Thank goodness we have the ability to be smarter than sheep or tomato plants.
If you do not stand for what is right you will fall for anything.

if you think you are poor you probably are, and you may never see the way out, if you are hungry your belly may be empty, but you will find a way out. if you take handouts you are selling yourself into slavery and that pit you cannot see out of...

Let us step back to see a bigger picture, maybe we need to adjust our blinders and need to widen our views, we all have potential, we can stand up and be strong, flex some muscle and grow some muscle, work through the stresses of life, stand up for what we know to be right and just, help our neighbors (but not enabled them) and work peacefully together to make this world better.

Evil has no power over good, that is an illusion, today is not much different than it has ever been, this battle has gone on since the beginning of time, and as long as man remains blind it will continue, but we do not have to be a part of it, or can prosper in spite of it, we just need to continue to work together to help each other prosper, instead of trying to gain from another, or get the better deal...

By neglect we lose our freedom, others more corrupt gain power over us, we war with each other instead of giving the other a helping hand, we disable each other or other countries, by neglect we lose our moral and our freedoms by neglect we put ourselves into a state of poverty.


Lino, I have to ramble to try and get something out, and hopefully, it makes some kind of sense, you say it in a sentence that is nothing but wisdom.
we all see different, my wife sees things I am blind to, you see things I cannot, we both see something that others cannot.
In a herd or a flock each pair of eyes help the security and overall health or wealth of the heard, the flock becomes stronger, each of us can help the other see something we can see they cannot, we can use the sight of others to help us survive or thrive.

The shine of the gold will not do you any good if you are blind. the richest country in the world today will be the poorest tommorow, and if we continue to neglect and continue to sleep in this deep slumber, we will lose our freedoms, and what good is some gold if we lose our freedoms and are under the control of tyranny and cannot feed ourselves?

No sleep and more coffee, I have to start getting back out in the cold and get to work, or my muscles will weaken.


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## butcher (Mar 16, 2021)

Metal prices, it is the price of everything else or its availability that concerns me, I figure the metal price will take care of itself and hold its trade value.

Been considering for a few years upgrading my sawmill from an Alaskan mill to a band saw or tracked circle sawmill, looks like the decision is being made for me.

I know the sawmills that used to ship logs to china are no longer working, the logger saws are rusting away, the forest growing into weed thickets that burn up the whole country with a spark... 

lumber and toilet paper, I have a feeling we have not seen anything yet, but glimpses of what could come mainly from our own neglect.


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## kurtak (Mar 16, 2021)

butcher said:


> If you owe for something it is not yours, you are renting to use it.
> My guess is 70% of those who think they own their home in this country are renting from bankers who pull the strings,



So true :!: 

I watched a PBS program about 15/16 years ago - it was about people living in the lower end of the "middle" income bracket which they considered a yearly income of $90,000 to $160,000 - (meaning if you made less then $90,000 you were low income or even living in poverty - anything under $20,000 - $30,000 considered poverty)

Anyway - they figured that 70 - 80 % of the people living in the low/middle bracket (15/16 years ago)could not afford a $500 emergency &/or did not have a one month of reserve "cash on hand" --- & that is because they are in debt up to their eye balls --- & when an emergency happens - they lose it ALL

most my life I have lived at the line between (so called) poverty & low income - I have "never done without - always been able to afford "more" then a $500 emergency & in fact could usually even provide for others (if need be) --- but then - I have never been in debt - what I have I own - I don't need to rob from Peter to pay Paul --- which is what a lot of people do - or another words go more in debt to pay for debt

Have a co-worker that does just that - re-finances his house just about every year in order to pay off his credit cards &/or other debt 

Kurt


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## butcher (Mar 16, 2021)

Kurt My wife sherry often tells me how much she admires you and your ability, and asks how you are doing in the little piece of heaven you have made home.

So very much I cannot see or understand, when I do get a peek, it's almost alarming.

I have enjoyed your posts, but rarely feel the need to comment, this is my chance to tell you how I enjoy reading them.


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## Lino1406 (Mar 16, 2021)

Thanks Butcher and Alexxx and Kurt. I am really moved


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## butcher (Mar 16, 2021)

Gold tried in the fire. 

What makes gold such a wonder?
A metal that under stress and fire is concentrated or purified.


If gold of the earth had not seen this fire or stress, we may not have been able to use it throughout our history, if it was not for the heat and high pressures deep down within the earth faults or the volcanic action the gold on the earth would have never of concentrated to the point where a man could see it or mine it.

It is the stress that brings up gold from the bowels of the earth and the stress that purifies gold.

Just as man's stress purifies him (or breaks him) or makes him stronger, without evil the earth would have no angles, without pain we may never feel joy or relief.
Without a burden or the stress of weight, our muscles will not grow to become strong but weaken and wilt away.

Without stress, we cannot build character and become strong ourselves.

let us greet the challenges, or the stress put before us not with fear, but by standing up strong to the challenge. refining ourselves as well as our gold, raise our eyesight from the ground to become more aware, to try ourselves in these fires of life.

why if the wind blows a different direction do we fear, these stresses have been here since the beginning of time and will continue to the end, these stresses improve the animal and plant kingdoms ability to survive and maybe their reason for doing so,( dinosaurs could not overcome the stress) and these stresses may just be necessary for our own human survival and our strength from the past stress can help us become stronger for the good of us all.

So I say bring it on, I am ready for the challenge, I am ready to be refined, and will use all the strength I have to carry my burdens, knowing only good can come of it in the end.

Now if I can just find some gold to mine and try it in the fire.


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## kurtak (Mar 17, 2021)

butcher said:


> or through hyperinflation as or our government's paper money press work overtime to lead us into hyperinflation,



Hyperinflation - this is already upon us - & it is JUST GETTING STARTED

I already posted about the price of building materials going up by A LOT

at least where I live my weekly groceries bill in the last year has gone up from an average of $60 per week to $100 per week (it would be even HIGHER if my freezer wasn't filled with elk meat & pork & beef I butcher my self)

My favorite hamburger at my favorite bar (a bacon cheese burger with grilled onions mushroom & jalapeno's) has gone from $7.50 to $11.50

Filling my car up with gas is costing more

My electric bill has gone up

They just raised the "minimum" on my water/sewer bill

In fact - it seems like every time I pay for something my eyes go - :shock: - because it's costing more then the last time I bought the same item

And it's just getting started :!: 

The question is - how does &/or is all of this going to effect gold/silver (&/or other metals)

IMO - if you don't hang on to your gold & silver --- you better hang on to your shirt - because you are likely to lose it :twisted: 

Kurt


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## alexxx (Mar 17, 2021)

I feel you Kurt, everything going up, while salaries tend to stagnate.

I don't have an answer to your question, just more questions...

I am a Canadian, so we tend to have a slightly a better safety net compared to the US.
I only follow US politics since here in Canada it is only small time fraud.
We are not supposed to talk politics here, but the questions remains while basic commodities go up in price & value while income & net valuable assets tend to be leaner for probably 60%+ americans...

- Why havent we seen many stimulus cheques to the people so they can buy potatoes, pay utility bills and rent??? $2000 per month per individual 15 years old + in Canada for the past 13 months.

- Why have we not seen the Bernie reconciliations $15/hour minimum wage passed already ???

-Why no universal healthcare ?

There is a limit to impunity and pure theft. What do you guys think is needed to get a bit more fairness in the US? When are we going to see an evolution in the positive direction? I keep saying "we" because unless there's is change in the US there is little hope for "we" the rest of the world. We can't count on China to do the right thing. Is there hope?


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## butcher (Mar 17, 2021)

There is always hope, where there is a will there is a way, we can do anything (Our makers willing, and within the laws of nature) we can do anything we put our minds to, and are willing to suffer through, no matter how much work or how difficult or hard it gets.
Of course we have to stand up and do it, talk or crying about it will not change anything. 

We may need to work hard to educate ourselves, be willing to see things differently even if it pains us to do so, and struggle to gain back what we have lost through our own foolishness, and neglect.

Learn how to stand on our own two feet and take control of our own affairs instead of giving other the power over our affairs, or over us,stand up and stop giving handouts that only disable, learn to control our own greed that puts us into these situations, see where we are to blame, wake up from our sleep and hypnotic state, basically the problem is not external to us it is us, and we will not make it better until we see that, and take action to change ourselves or our views...

Basically we have to wake up, stop blaming all of this on others, and take responsibility of this and of ourselves, suffer the consequences, and learn the lessons and learn to do what is right.

It is a shame we cannot really communicate with each other today, respect each other enough to work out a problem, that we have all caused between ourselves, leaving the cave man to believe he has no way out but to fight his way out of the hole he put himself into by his own neglect ignorance and blindness.

I have no doubt we will see much worse, and we will see much better, all of this is nothing new or to be feared as long as we can look within ourselves, change ourselves and have the courage to stand up for what is right, we have control of ourselves, following not what we may have been falsely led to believe, or to follow in a hypnotic stupor, involving ourselves in the loosing venture of the games of the world.

Our power is from within, if we have that power than nothing external can have control over us.
If we do not look within, and strengthen and refine ourselves, then those external to us are given power over us by our own neglect.

I would rather go hungry and pay for my own mistakes, than count on a handout that would take food from my child, and keep us both hungry.

Sounds good print more money (deflate your value) to give to people to plant potatoes, problem is most of those have no idea how to grow there own potatoes, so we better print more money and devalue our selves even more to make sure they have some more tater seed for next year after these they planted rot in the field.

Why not $1000 minimum wage? 15.00 that is peanuts.That $1,000 dollar an hour to start learning if we can do or even handle our first job would do us all better, heck if we can legislative the market, and print money and have free tater seed for everybody what do we have to be concerned about?
If we are going to help drive up the price of wages unnaturally against the market, putting our nations small businesses in real jeopardy of failure in a struggling market, why do we not just let the government run the whole business and take let them over your mother kitchen where she sell her goods to put food on your table? We know how well they run everything .
why should government give us away potato seed? Why not steak and caviar? if we are going to kill ourselves in debt lets just do it quickly and get it over.

Sure, I am just Dying to go to a government run hospital, and trust a government run healthcare system with my health and care in my old age, you know how much trust we can put in the leaders to do the right thing, and how well we can trust those we put into power over us to run it efficiently as they run all their businesses, and along with them only having our best interest and health in their minds. 
No thanks I do not need any governments medicine (I just cannot swallow it), 

Why not blindly give them power to stimulate us into more poverty and debt and further stimulate the government to more gain more power stimulate the printing presses that will take our gold and our freedoms.
I just do not trust.

I am American
Independent I can feed himself, or my family, I never have been, and never will be dependent on a government to feed me.
I do not depend on the king or a government (or some dictator we put in power) to care for my health or the strength of my muscle or bones, nor do I trust them to run a business that determines my health or my wealth or rely on them totally for my security and well being, as an American I take responsibility for myself.

Nor will I give up my God given rights to protect myself and my family.
I will hold any gold I mine and manage it myself, I will determine what I do with my saving or excess labor, I do not trust the government or a banker to manage it for me, using it how they wish.
We can help our own neighbors, we do not need the king to collect his taxes from his peasants to help to keep the poor in control and poverty...

Well I just need to look within myself , that is where I will survive anything external to me, I can take care of myself.
Each one of us have a different view, as we all see through different individual pairs of eyes, and through different filters of our experiences and our own blindness's, or rose colored shades.
I am sure we would all elect different kings, presidents, dictators, or government leaders...
And we would all have a different opinion of not only who should rule the tribe or govern, I am sure we would also fight, of how to decide to divide up the only rabbit and buck deer among us. or who will have to work the hide to tan it and who would get it on the coming cold nights...

I understand we have different eyes and views, different minds with different ideas or strategies to survive.

I also see how even discussing the price of metals in today's environment can easily become political, and divide us, and I have to be careful of not only of getting my self banned from the forum, but also to stay out of the getting into any type of political conversation.

I do not see this as a political problem, and if others here feel I am crossing the line into that field please bring it to my attention, you can see me better than I can see myself.

I just believe we can help each other to see ourselves and our problems, and possible come to some good solutions, and to help educate ourselves, and to help each other, so we can all enjoy our freedom and our work, or saving of that work, regardless of the political fire storms around us, that we can profit from our metals, and do good with them to make medicines, to make battery's, vehicles, electric work saving machines, to make communication between us all better and just make the world around us better in general.

Regardless of the price of labor, the dollar, or the metals. or for that matter any government or bank, or those playing for dictatorship and control, we ultimately have control over only one thing ourselves.
It has been historically said that those who control the worlds metals and powder will have control over the world, well i say that would put us of refiners of metals in a better position, to have more control over our own lives if we can educate ourselves and become more aware.


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## alexxx (Mar 18, 2021)

It's hard for me to disagree whit anything you are posting Butcher, I learn a lot from it and it lowers my overall stress & anxiety towards the universe.
No doubt there's a wide scope of eyes and views.. We are humans afterall. And this is where mine differs.

We are where we are today, as a specie able to launch satelittes into space, because we found out and decided that things tend to go better for everyone if we stick together. If someone from the tribe gets sick or injured while hunting, we care for him, because we need him to stay & contribute to the tribe in the long run. Also because, someday, it might be I, that is sick, and I would love for my crew to help me get trough it. We share in a common pot everything we gathered from the bushes and the threes for the meals. We hunt together because it's easier to kill a mamoth in a pack. We built cities and created centers of knowledge and wisdom because it's for the benefit of all. 

This goes way behond any politics. Today we do things in a slighlty different way by contributing fiat to a pot for the benefit of the larger tribe. The idea remains the same, only our politicians are failing us spending that hard earned paper. We trust them with our roads and military and we should not trust them with our healthcare? 

I don't believe in free stuff or handouts, it does not work in the long run, just another Rome with bread & circus. In do believe in a collective safety net for those in need, to give them a chance when help is needed. The basics, food, shelter, health, education, safety...
If those basic needs are convered, the society has way better chances of flourishing.

That brings us to the idea of equal chance of opportunity within the tribe. Once the collective has spent some ressources to give you a chance, it's up to you to make the best of it.

There is, and there always will be leaches taking advantage from the system. Politicians, banksters, regular folks too... That's why, has a group, we built a civil & criminal justice system for the benefit of all.

Now, our laws are made by the legislative branch that, we, the tribe, the constituants, the electorate voted for. We are the sole responsible for the laws and rules we don't like or don't agree with. There is no excuses in these modern times. We have the politicians we deserve.

And this is where, again, we need to educate ourselfs and do it if we are not satisfied with our past, present and the future to come for us, for our kids, for our tribe.


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## kurtak (Mar 18, 2021)

Sadly - we have become - or at least becoming more & more a society of entitlement 

Concerning politics - we need to be careful that we don't cross the line on political views in general (what I/we think about abortion, sexual orientation, race issues etc. etc.)

Economics including the influence politics has on economics in one way or another has an effect on the value of our gold & silver

if we can not discuss that (for fear of crossing the line of political discussion) then we can not make wise decisions as to when to buy/sell or hold or metal

not discussing the effect politics may or not have on our metal(s) value would indeed be foolish

IMO

Kurt


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## butcher (Mar 18, 2021)

Alexxx, 
I agree with you to an extent, but also see it differently, I believe if we could spend some time together we may be able to see things more from the others view point, because we can discuss this rationally, trouble is we are on the gold forum, and typing is a hard way to communicate or get ideas across.

if your security is what puts you in danger, it is not good.
If your help only hinders it may not be as helpful as you believe.
If you enable a nation by feeding it, how can you expect it to support itself tomorrow.
.

It was not as pretty a picture as you may have learned or have been led to believe from Hollywood or some college professor who has a bias slant on history or does not know nothing about it,except that which has been romanticized by historical stories.

Our country sent a man to the moon and fed our people, in our country, in an attempt to pay for our recent social programs by printing more money we put our country in debt costing us more than all of the previous wars and all of our space programs, promising any and all of the food we grow tomorrow to those who we are borrowing from, in order for us to pay for a nation who is not working to pull their own weight, we will not survive as a tribe doing this. Today we cannot afford a space program, keep this up and tomorrow we will not be able feed our poor or feed ourselves, but then be dependent on others or be sold as slaves.


The people of the tribe did help each other to survive, but no one was on tribal welfare. everyone worked, fought, or died for the tribe. 
Many times were sacrifices for the good of the tribe, many times there were hard self sacrifices made by individuals where elderly who could no longer pull their weight , in this case they would stay behind in winter sitting up camp while generations of their children left the, the tribe left them to fend for themselves or starve, giving their life for their children and others of the tribe so they did bot burden the tribe, or a wounded warrior who sacrificed himself for the good of others knowing if others tried to help him it would only endanger the tribe more and make the survival of all in more danger, or the mother smothering her child to keep him quiet and the tribe safe.

Feeding the people of our tribe who unable to work or those who of our tribe who have gotten fat and lazy, feeding and sheltering those who do not help, but are only a burden with their own laziness, those who find it easier to just sit and wait in camp warm by the fire on a freezing day, while others go out to work to feed them, or should we feed them with food that we do not have or have not hunted, so we have to borrow from another tribe,which also may be our enemy, giving them our surplus goods or our the very tools we will need to survive as a tribe in the future which also may be our enemy, a practice that not only weakens us a a tribe, but puts our tribe in the line of being slaves of the other tribes.

Well if we put it up for vote I guess all of the fat and lazy of our tribe will vote for the rest of the tribe to work and feed them while they sit by the fire.

I am just glad my tribe (family) will not burden themselves into poverty to feed me, or care for me at there own demise, when I can no longer feed myself or support them, sure they will care where they can, and do what they can (and would sacrifice themselves if I let them, or their emotions overruled their common sense), I would not wish to starve my family, in saving myself, or making my life more comfortable while draining my family's ability to survive and grow in future generations.

These are complicated issues not easily discussed, not easily solved.
I have probably carried this topic further than I should have, and although it does have a big effect on the metal price,the forum is not a place for us to try and solve social problems or different ideas of solving those problems (which always seems to go into a political field or of political views taught by others.

We all have to open our minds question what we have been lead to believe, educate ourselves, and work together to help us all survive, that include sacrifice of ourselves where needed.

We do not gain anything without some kind of sacrifice. We do not live in heaven or a fantasy world yet, but if we can make the needed sacrifices maybe we can.


If it was only life was that simple, but heck what fun would that be, we would all be bored to death.


I guess my point is we need to be careful of how we take care of our sick, elderly, or for those with a disability, and our children born, and our unborn children in our nations wife's womb's, we can do it as a people if we wished, we have the ability (if not hindered by our government) we have the ability to feed everyone today and still grow enough for tomorrow, we have enough land and lumber to build everyone a house and enough to build them a barn (if not hindered by the government), we can educate people to learn to feed themselves, to help families care for the elderly sick or disabled among them, we can have the needed medicine, the hospitals...

I believe we as people, can take care of ourselves and do it well, take care of our poor or sick, better than a government, and if the government got out of the way we could be closer to living in a better society where our tribes would survive better, than letting the king take control and govern us all to the poor house.


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