# more newby stuff



## mikeinkaty (Dec 2, 2012)

Items 1-5 and 7 have been answered by doing a google search and youtube videos.

1) I haven't seen yet what would be a good crucible for melting karat gold for quanties less than 2 ounces. I would like one with a built in handle and maybe a stand for holding it till ready to pour. (ANSWERED)

2) I haven't seen a good discussion on how to glaze the crucible. I guess get it hot and sprinkle Borax in it till it melts then pour off any residue? (ANSWERED)

3) When melting the scraps does one continue sprinkling Borax in occasionally? (ANSWERED)

4) Where do you buy Borax. I checked two grocery stores today and they did not have any. I remember grocery stores as having it. (ANSWERED)

5) Should I get several crucible's at once? I've seen a lot of crucible's & graphite molds on Ebay. How rugged are these things? (ANSWERED) 

My plan is to inquart karat scrap with silver for now and collect it as shot. Somewhere way down the road and the learning curve I'll start refining it. I have a lot of highly circulated Morgan Silver dollars in the safe deposit box that aren't worth more than the silver content (i've checked them all). Or, i can buy silver bullion at spot price + 3%. If I bought bullion that would mostly eliminate copper from the equation and it could be recovered.

6) Would the Morgan dollars work for the inquarting? What about other metals like Copper. I have lots of copper pipe around but have no idea what other metals it contains.

7) forgot one! What do you stir the melt with in the crucible? (ANSWERED)

Mike


----------



## AndyWilliams (Dec 2, 2012)

Mike, 

I'd be careful about relying on google or youtube, both mediums I consider suspect unless they are used as an educational tool by the members of GRF. Basically, I came here to learn from them, they have all the knowledge I need, why take advice from questionable sources?

Anyway, I just came across a great post from Geo, it helps answer your question 6. I searched for silver copper and inquarting. 

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=16335&p=164819&hilit=copper+silver+inquarting#p164819

As you can see, that extra $30/ozt will be made up rather quickly in the cost of chemicals.

Andy.

Edited to add last line.


----------



## butcher (Dec 2, 2012)

I use melting dish like Laser Steve sells on his web site for around 3 dollars, I buy several as they will last a few melts and then are used for dirtier melts until no longer usable, the dish needs seasoned heated to remove moisture and then heated up a little sprinkle of borax soap (20 mule team from grocery store) or order anhydrous online, just enough to glaze the dish with a clear coating so the dish looks wet, the less borax used to coat the dish the better, just enough so the gold does not stick, and not so much that gold cools in a puddle of glass flux.

Harold has made many posts on how to use and care for melting dishes, these would be well worth searching for and reading.

I like buying sterling silver scrap to inquarter with, this improves the silver and parts the gold, the small amount of copper is no trouble.

Stir the melt with a carbon graphite rod, I use the graphite rods from D cell batteries, I have bought some longer graphite stir rods from lacy west jewelry supply, as well as other supply's, but have not used my nice graphite rods, or nice melting dish with the handle, I do not know why, I buy this nice stuff and then do not use them, they are too nice to use, it is like lab ware I still have in boxes, it is just too nice to break refining gold when an ole coffee pot and canning jars get the job done just as well.


----------



## mikeinkaty (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks people! I had 1 chemistry class in highschool and 2 in college so I'm not a total idiot in this stuff. But, that was 50 years ago!

And how to care for a crucible is not rocket science. It's just that in the stuff I've seen here the experts tend to gloss over the small mundane stuff.

The rocket science will be needed when I get into the refining stage. I'm collecting karat gold now and will be for a long time. For now I'm just going to reduce most of 10-14kt stuff to 6kt shot and store it till I feel I'm ready to start the AR bit. 

By the way, I watched a UTube video where this guy was melting several pounds of scrap. When done he stuck the bar in the analysis machine and obtained these resultes: Au - 58%, CU - 27%, AG - 8%, ZN - 6%, NI - 1%. Is this typical for most scrap jewelry?

When making the shot what is the best method to get the smallest size? I figure get a good melt, pour slow, and use like a 24" column of water??? I have an acetylene/oxygen torch so heat should not be a problem. I'll search here for "Small size shot".

Mike


----------



## element47.5 (Dec 3, 2012)

Throwing out the following thought: I understand what you are trying to do. Nevertheless, I think it is in general a bad idea to "scrap" silver dollars unless they are holed (very common) or otherwise mutilated. Maybe if they are so called "slicks" with the surface features just obliterated and the details visible only as kind of silouhette or ghost-like. If they are still round, not holed, not slicks, you are almost always sacrificing value because you are taking what I call a "self-assaying" form and treating it as an unassayed form. If you are talking about 2-3 SDs, then big deal, who cares. But if you have 20-30-50, try to find a coin dealer who will trade you generic rounds on at least an equal-for-equal SILVER CONTENT basis. Or, you could trade them to Jay (search scrapman1077) who offers a trade-in service for SDs, sterling flatware, and junk. My point is, if you want .999 silver, even if it is to inquart gold, there are easier and cheaper ways to get it. Not a LOT cheaper, but certainly easier. Maybe you think taking what you already have and sacrificing value from it is cheaper...just because you already have it in your hands. You can argue with me that you don't care, and if you don't care, then that's fine. But down the line, IMO you'll have better luck (and...this is the cost part...use less chemicals) inquarting with pure silver rather than mixed silver/copper as with tossing junk 90% coinage into your pot.


----------



## mikeinkaty (Dec 3, 2012)

element47.5 said:


> Throwing out the following thought: I understand what you are trying to do. Nevertheless, I think it is in general a bad idea to "scrap" silver dollars unless they are holed (very common) or otherwise mutilated. Maybe if they are so called "slicks" with the surface features just obliterated and the details visible only as kind of silouhette or ghost-like. If they are still round, not holed, not slicks, you are almost always sacrificing value because you are taking what I call a "self-assaying" form and treating it as an unassayed form. If you are talking about 2-3 SDs, then big deal, who cares. But if you have 20-30-50, try to find a coin dealer who will trade you generic rounds on at least an equal-for-equal SILVER CONTENT basis. Or, you could trade them to Jay (search scrapman1077) who offers a trade-in service for SDs, sterling flatware, and junk. My point is, if you want .999 silver, even if it is to inquart gold, there are easier and cheaper ways to get it. Not a LOT cheaper, but certainly easier. Maybe you think taking what you already have and sacrificing value from it is cheaper...just because you already have it in your hands. You can argue with me that you don't care, and if you don't care, then that's fine. But down the line, IMO you'll have better luck (and...this is the cost part...use less chemicals) inquarting with pure silver rather than mixed silver/copper as with tossing junk 90% coinage into your pot.




Thank you Element47.5! That was a very good tutorial! I have pretty well convinced myself that the 999 silver is the way to go. I can get it at just a little over spot price and what the heck - If I do my job well I should be able to recover it! Right? I would hate to find out later that one of my MD's, turned out to be worth $1000! Oh yeah, I just found out that scrap jewelry can contain at much as 25-30% CU. MD's have 10% CU. So, why complicate things with more copper!

ps - in my 71 years of life I have undertaken more projects than most people can imagine. All of them were profitable to a lesser or greater extent. This one is just going to be a hobby but I would consider it unsuccessful if I lost money. 

Mike


----------



## element47.5 (Dec 3, 2012)

Mike, as to the scarcity of Morgan dollars, Google "morgan dollar mintage". The ones that are rare have let's say under 2.5-3 million or so mintage. Some years, they made astronomical numbers of them...I would say the average is about 9-12 million, but in some years they made 23 mm, 51 MM. The sort of interesting thing about this is that the Mint had astronomical amounts of silver from The Comstock Lode and they were under the pressure from Wm. Randolph Hearst to monetize this silver. It is kind of an interesting story...in some ways. The only ones that are rare have mintages less than 2.5 > 3 MM, and you will see, there are not a lot of those. There are lots of years, 1886, 1888, 1889, where they made zillions of these. They might be nice coins but that aren't "rare" except for maybe a dozen or so so-called "key" dates---and more especially, mint marks. But, this is the quickest way to determine potential values. If one you have is down low in mintage, then maybe you have something. Otherwise, they go for about $30 and all those common dates are...well, common. Even in rather nice condition.


----------



## mikeinkaty (Dec 3, 2012)

element47.5 said:


> Mike, as to the scarcity of Morgan dollars, Google "morgan dollar mintage". The ones that are rare have let's say under 2.5-3 million or so mintage. Some years, they made astronomical numbers of them...I would say the average is about 9-12 million, but in some years they made 23 mm, 51 MM. The sort of interesting thing about this is that the Mint had astronomical amounts of silver from The Comstock Lode and they were under the pressure from Wm. Randolph Hearst to monetize this silver. It is kind of an interesting story...in some ways. The only ones that are rare have mintages less than 2.5 > 3 MM, and you will see, there are not a lot of those. There are lots of years, 1886, 1888, 1889, where they made zillions of these. They might be nice coins but that aren't "rare" except for maybe a dozen or so so-called "key" dates---and more especially, mint marks. But, this is the quickest way to determine potential values. If one you have is down low in mintage, then maybe you have something. Otherwise, they go for about $30 and all those common dates are...well, common. Even in rather nice condition.



I just saw that Apmex has 10oz bags of industrial 999. silver shot for $1.69/oz over spot. That would make things even easier.


----------



## element47.5 (Dec 3, 2012)

> I just saw that Apmex has 10oz bags of industrial 999. silver shot for $1.69/oz over spot.



That is no special deal...when you can get .999 generic rounds for the same price(or less) from 25 different places any old time. Also, APMEX has a $25 minimum shipping charge, which is high for 10 oz. I DO like APMEX. they are absolutely straight ahead folks and their website makes it easy to buy silver on an overnight dump, should you choose to do so, because you can lock in a price 24 hrs. Also, I like it that you can lock in a price by supplying a credit card (which they will NOT charge---unless you back out of the deal and fail to send in timely payment) and follow it up with a same-day-sent personal check which they will hold for clearing and some days later, you get the "cash" price you locked in instead of the "credit card" price. 

I of course do not know the number of ounces you are thinking about...but add $25 to the delivered price of 10 rounds and it ain't $1.69 over spot any more. But it is to your advantage to have whatever silver you do not use in *round* form vs shot form. Why? Because rounds are, again, self-assaying. They already say .999 on them. Shot? What's that? Shiny metal droplets/blobs/BBs in a plastic bag? 

The best price I have found on small lots of rounds is Gainesville Coins in FL...often they have sales for .69 over spot and sometimes .49. Of course there will be shipping...Some poster also posted another very low-over-spot dealer for rounds but the name escapes me at present. Gainesvillecoins.com has an excellent reputation, though I myself have never bought from them. 

I also reco going to coinshows.com if you have any interest in coins...and looking for a coinshow near you. Go and blow off a Saturday weekend afternoon for a giant $3 admission charge. Usually, you will find dealers there who will sell w/o sales tax. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the absolutely gigantic number of silver dollars there are out there. There are bazillions of them. Plus one of said dealers may make you a favorable deal on your SDs, even if they are common dates. Your mission is to understand that a SD is .77034 (?) tr oz Ag. And by the way, a silver dollar is MORE SILVER than 4 qty silver qtrs! It's like 1.065 times the value of four qtrs or two halves or ten dimes. Keep in mind, as well, most states have minimums under which they have to charge sales tax. In CA, it is $1500. and below. This would apply to a retail coin store...not especially a coin show dude. And by the way...many towns have coin clubs. You might find a cooperative person at such a club who'll make you a better deal on your SDs-for-rounds trade. 

You may think this is pinching pennies. Well, I suspect as a young man of 71 years, you may have leanings in that direction, LOL. Plus, there is one very important thing you must understand about metals. And that is,* each and every time you touch them*, there are unavoidable frictions involved. You can't buy silver rounds at spot. There is in the price a "coining charge"...which is legitimate..but my point is; it is there...and my second point is, it is inescapable. If it ain't the coining charge, it's shipping. If it ain't that, it's something else. If you are not careful, if you pay let's say $2 over spot for generic rounds...and pay a $25 shipping charge---suddenly you are paying too much, spot plus $4. All that matters is the *delivered* price--to your door.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 3, 2012)

Mike,

Depending on the quantity you're considering, these folks may have a better price: http://www.goldmart.com/

I found their name here on the forum. I made a couple of purchases and was satisfied. Be sure you check all ther fees and conditions, but they have some 10 oz. .999 bars for $0.79 and $0.89 per ozt. over spot.

Dave


----------



## element47.5 (Dec 3, 2012)

Yes, that was the other low priced bullion source. Goldmart.


----------



## nickvc (Dec 4, 2012)

Mike if you want fine silver powder from a cell just post a request here on the forum, I'm sure you will get a response. Most folks who need to sell will have to sell under spot so if you offer spot price it saves both parties money. The other point to remember is that many karat alloys can contain silver so hopefully your 10 ounces will slowly increase and if you use cementation to recover your silver for reuse you will also collect any platinum group metals in your scrap.


----------



## mikeinkaty (Dec 4, 2012)

Goldmart doesn't list Silver Shot on their web site. I fired off a message to them. Will advise when I get a response.
I have bought gold bullion from Apmex and indeed their shipping cost is high.
Some people on Ebay have silver bullion and shot on sell for 2X the spot price!!!!

What thread here is used for buying/selling stuff?


----------



## Palladium (Dec 4, 2012)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=58


----------



## butcher (Dec 4, 2012)

mikeinkaty, 
I do not melt and shot my karat gold before I am ready to refine it, melting with scrap sterling silver mixing it with a carbon rod, and pouring shot is an easy and quick process.

Once you do melt this the karat gold will be harder to recognize and sell locally as it is no longer marked, or in a recognizable form, and it is hard to determine 6k with testing stones, not many people would have 6K testing needles, or be willing to test each little bead to be sure of what they are buying, consider this if something comes up and you may need to sell your scrap before you can process it.

I also like to use sterling silver scrap for inquartering the gold, as I can buy it under spot and it does not have much copper involved to use too much of my HNO3 in the process, and the silver is also improved in quality in the process, also I can reuse the silver scrap several times in the processes, reusing the same silver remelting it with the next batch of gold to be processed.


----------



## mikeinkaty (Dec 5, 2012)

butcher said:


> mikeinkaty,
> I do not melt and shot my karat gold before I am ready to refine it, melting with scrap sterling silver mixing it with a carbon rod, and pouring shot is an easy and quick process.
> 
> Once you do melt this the karat gold will be harder to recognize and sell locally as it is no longer marked, or in a recognizable form, and it is hard to determine 6k with testing stones, not many people would have 6K testing needles, or be willing to test each little bead to be sure of what they are buying, consider this if something comes up and you may need to sell your scrap before you can process it.
> ...



Butcher - I don't plan to sell the 6k stuff. Just collect it as shot for now. I'll start refining when I have collected enough to produce about 10 ozs of output. I have a couple of estate liquidators I'm buying from right now. Mostly 14k stuff. When I do start refining it will be in small runs - targeting like 1 toz output for each run. And thats the reason for wanting to use shot - so I can easily control the amount in each run. If something comes up and I can't process it then it will go to my son. 

I do have a question. My thoughts on using 999 silver depend on being able to recover it later. If I collect it in glass jugs and store it in closed boxes, how long can I wait to do the recovery? I'm thinking there should be no time limit but I really don't know.

Thanks for the advise.

Mike


----------



## butcher (Dec 5, 2012)

Using 999 silver in your melt to inquarter gold with, the silver cement you get back would most likely be of less quality or purity picking up copper from the process, to me it would be loosing money in the process, but if you use scrap 92.5% sterling silver you will get back a higher quality silver from the cemented silver, but we have beat that horse enough, if you want to use 99.9% Ag it its your choice.

With ten ounces of gold you will need about 30 ounces of silver, where if you kept reusing the same silver you would not have as much silver tied up in the process.


I would not store the silver as a silver and copper nitrate solution for very long, after parting the silver from the gold, cement out the silver onto copper, washing it well and drying it to powder and store as powder in jar or just melt back to silver.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 5, 2012)

Mike,

Were it me, I would probably go to garage sales and buy sterling spoons and forks that are stamped STERLING, for use in inquarting. I don't know why you would use pure silver shot either but, if you insist, you might try a jewelry supply company and ask for pure silver casting grain (same as shot). This is about the best price I found but I didn't try too hard. You can also use the 2nd link to do your own looking.
http://www.sfjssantafe.com/ScastingGrain.php?Gid=SS001&ItemSet=Silver+Casting+Grain&DepId=
https://www.google.com/search?q=silver+casting+grain+pure+pricing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

I would bet someone on the forum would shot some of their silver and sell it to you, probably cheaper.


----------



## mikeinkaty (Dec 6, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> Mike,
> 
> Were it me, I would probably go to garage sales and buy sterling spoons and forks that are stamped STERLING, for use in inquarting. I don't know why you would use pure silver shot either but, if you insist, you might try a jewelry supply company and ask for pure silver casting grain (same as shot). This is about the best price I found but I didn't try too hard. You can also use the 2nd link to do your own looking.
> http://www.sfjssantafe.com/ScastingGrain.php?Gid=SS001&ItemSet=Silver+Casting+Grain&DepId=
> ...



I have quite a few sterling silver utinsels I have collected over the years that are laying around gathering dust. You don't think the extra base metal content would cause problems? What is the normal other content of sterling? Seems like I read 10% CU mostly. I did buy a bunch of beat up and tarnished 999 one ounce AG bars yesterday for spot.

If I shotted the spoons is there anyway to separate out the AG?

I need to start making a list of chemicals I will need.

Mike


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 6, 2012)

Mike,

Take a read through some of the posts in the Silver section of the forum.

In simple terms, you can digest the sterling silver in nitric acid, then cement the silver by placing some copper metal in the solution. The resultant silver will be somewhere around 99% pure and will work just fine for inquarting.

There are a lot more details you need to know (like the fact that the fumes from the nitric can KILL you and anyone unfortunate enough to be near you). Read through the Safety section as well. All the details are here on the forum, but you'll have to spend some time reading.

Please understand that when members tell you you need to do more reading, we're not trying to be mean by not giving you a simple answer. It's just that there is a LOT to know before you proceed, and no one can write a simple post that covers it all.

Dave


----------



## AndyWilliams (Dec 6, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > Mike,
> ...




Working backwards:

Don't shot the spoons unless you just want to practice melting. Just figure how much metal you need to add to your gold to inquart and cut off that much spoon. To separate out the base metals, you'll have to digest anyway, might as well save your chemicals for your digest after inquarting.

Hopefully your sterling isn't 10% CU, otherwise it's not sterling  

There shouldn't be too much problem inquarting with the sterling, the most likely base metal is CU.


----------



## mikeinkaty (Dec 7, 2012)

Ok, I'm starting to see the wisdom you guys have been trying to get through my thick head. Throw in the gold scrap and the silver in what ever form you have and start melting! Why waste HNO3 and torch gas when it is so darn expensive! And, why wait till I have 10 ounces? Start the refining after maybe I have enough stock for 2 or 3 runs.

First I gotta figure out where to buy Nitric Acid! That may be a deal killer!


----------



## goldsilverpro (Dec 7, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > Mike,
> ...


The only disadvantage in using sterling instead of pure is that it will take a little more nitric - about 20% more. Other than that, no problem. 

Many people around the world use pure copper for inquarting and it works OK. In that case, though, it would take 240% more nitric. Besides the extra nitric cost, there would be 240% more waste acid. Also, using pure copper makes it harder to melt, due to the higher melting point and the problem of forming annoying copper oxides on the surface of the melt. Also, in my experience, using all copper seems to produce more gold fines, thus making the gold more difficult to collect.


----------

