# What to pay for gold plate and gold filled?



## jimdoc

Does anybody have an idea of what to pay for gold plated scrap, and gold filled scrap? I know that isn't an easy question to answer because of all the different items that will be encountered. I posted an ad on Craigslist looking for scrap gold plate and filled. I said to let me know what you have and how much you want, and if it is a one time or continuous supply.
One person responded asking me what I pay. I asked what does he have and how much. Is there a bottom line answer I could tell people? And I know I shouldn't give people an absolute answer without seeing the material, just wondering how I should answer a question like that.
Thanks. Jim


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## lazersteve

Jim,

Never buy any gold items sight unseen. Ask lots of questions and get photos. 

GSP has a great formula for computing the amount of gold on plated items. Catfish has done some good work in this area also. I go with the averages myself. Medium to high grade plated scrap will produce about 1 gram per pound. Poor to Low grade plated scrap will produce between 0.1-0.25 grams per pound.

For gold filled (GF) the math is as follows:

(GF karat / 24) x Total Weight of scrap x GF factor

Here's an example for 100 Grams of 12kt 1/20 gold filled (12/20 GF):

(12/24) x 100 x ( 1/20) = 0.5 x 100 x 0.05 = 2.5 grams 24kt gold

For the value of the GF per gram figure:

(Gold current spot price / 31.1) x Grams 24kt = Value of Gold

an example of the value for the first example:


($659.40 / 31.1) x 2.5 gm = $53.00 for 100 Grams of 12/20 GF.

Don't forget to include your shipping costs, chemicals, and labor when making your offer. :wink: 

Steve


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## Harold_V

No guidance on what they're worth, just a heads-up that things may not be as they appear. :wink: 

It's easy enough to calculate the theoretical gold content of filled objects, assuming they're marked, but that's not always a formula for determining the value of the item. Because gold is on the surface only, any wear that occurs equates to gold loss, not base metal, so the yield is often reduced well below the calculated content. A badly worn object could be worth very little as compared to an identical object that had no wear. I offer you a gold filled watch case as an example. 

Do not allow anything to deter you from obtaining gold filled items. While they're not nearly as good as karat gold objects, they're usually several times greater in gold content than plated objects, and well worth running. 

Harold


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## jimdoc

Thanks for the info, I know it is a tough question with alot of variables.
I don't plan on buying sight unseen, or off Ebay I was looking to find some local sources. I have some guy's with coin shops I used to deal with that I am going to check with, they will probably let me process then split with them, the one guy I know has coffee cans full of plated and filled.

I tried Craigslist to see what happens.I was thinking maybe process the items and split the gold or pay them for half?, Does that sound fair? 
I basically wanted to see what the ad would produce, and wanted people to let me know what they had, and how much they wanted for it, and then
go from there. I guess this is the learning and experience part that everybody needs to go through.

The guy that asked how much I pay never got back to me with what he has. I will let you guys know how the CL ad works. I have had 3 organs offered to me today, but no Hammonds.
Jim


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## catfish

Hi Jimdoc:

You just asked the $64,000.00 question. I have refined just about every type of gold plated, gold filled and karat gold there is and some times I think I have it figured out and wham! I get blind sided by what I thought was a good deal and it turns out bad. There are many very good mathematical ways of determining the amount of gold in a gold plated, rolled, filled or karat gold items, but as Harold said, they don’t always work.

I have just about stop buying gold plated items off eBay. It’s just not worth it. I now only buy gold filled and karat gold only.

I use the formula that Steve posted and I come up with an end result of anticipated yield and take the current price of gold per gram and come up with a dollar amount. I bid the items at about 60 to 65% of this theoretical number. I deduct the shipping costs and then place a dollar bid on Power Snipe and forget it. If I get it fine and if I don’t, fine. If you can’t make money on it pass it up.

Two weeks ago I purchased 33.7 grams of Old glass frames and some small jewelry. All alleged to be gold filled. It was all stated as 1/20 10, 12, and 14k gold filled. I used the numbers of 1/20 (5%) of 33.7 X .57 = .96 grams of gold expected. .96 X $21.00 per gram = $20.16. The shipping was $4.60 I deducted the shipping and bid $11.00. I got the bid at 10.99. Through Power snipe. I got the gold and refined it in Aqua Regia and it refined out after two refining processes 1.5 grams of very pure gold. 1.5 grams X 21.00= $31.50. A profit of about $16.00. Two small ear rings were 14 karat gold.

One thing, old eye glasses and watches may state 1/10 or 1/20 gold filled but some times they can be more than that. Luck of the draw.

You have heard the old saying “there is no magic bullet”, that is the case on buying plated gold. Gold plating on Engineering items such as pins, fingers and chip pins can be anywhere from 10 micro inches to 150 mils. The sellers on eBay will tell you anything you want to hear. I ask lots of hard questions of sellers, they just don’t have a clue on what they have. I have been successful on large sales to get the seller to send me a sample of his items and then I can get a good idea on how much its worth. Only some of them will do that.

If you would like some more info in determining the value on plated gold drop me a PM and I will share with you the data I have come up with so far.

Catfish


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## jimdoc

Catfish,
Thanks for the info. I know what you are saying about Ebay prices, people really pay more than what they should, and when you figure shipping and processing into it, I can't take that risk. That is why I wanted to try finding some local sources. You have it down right with sniping at your figured price, and still factor in the no-see, believe the seller, and pray you get what you are bidding on.
I am really trying to figure out a bottom line price where I can't go wrong, but still be enough to get some material, and then go higher if it warrants going higher. Thanks. Jim


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## Harold_V

catfish said:


> One thing, old eye glasses and watches may state 1/10 or 1/20 gold filled but some times they can be more than that. Luck of the draw.



I processed eyeglass frames by the thousands early on. I'd have continued to do so, but they slowly dried up. At first (early 70's) they were everywhere, and could be purchased for as little as 10¢, but the going price was 25¢. On the average, they yield a grain of gold, so on today's market they're worth about $1.50 each. 

Your comment "some times they can be more than that" is dead on, but rare. There was one maker that used a karat gold bridge on certain types of glasses. They were the later style, ladies glasses, and quite fancy. The bridge wasn't just a simple curved bar, more of a flattened cable looking piece. 

Glass frames made in the later years that still contained gold were marked by a different method. It was all numbers, which would translate in to content as fractions. I'm at a loss to recall how they were designated, but it's quite obvious when you see them. Sad thing is, they were lower in content. Towards the very end, filled frames were little better than plated items. 

One of my early ventures with frames was with an optometrist that had, literally, a small room full of boxes filled with old frames. I processed them on a percentage basis, for what I recall was a 25% fee. They're a lot of work, having to break out the glass, then incinerate them to redness, which eliminates not only the plastic, but body oils as well. It's hard to describe how filthy some of them were. The incineration process is quite an important step in cleaning the metal and making the base metal available to the nitric. I heated them until they came apart, making it much easier to handle them. 

I had a lot of interesting things provided for refining through the years, but I can't think of anything that was more satisfying than receiving a box full of grody old eyeglass frames, and recovering the values. 



> The sellers on eBay will tell you anything you want to hear. I ask lots of hard questions of sellers, they just don’t have a clue on what they have.



That's not limited to sellers on ebay. You come to realize that most folks don't have a clue about gold----can't discern costume jewelry from karat gold jewelry, and can't begin to understand what gold filled is. To that end, I recall stopping at a garage sell, very early 70's. I asked about any jewelry. 

"Nope", says the gal. "No jewelry". 

Any class rings? 

"Oh, yeah! I have one of those things. It belonged to a guy I used to date".

Want to sell it?

"Yeah, sure."

"How much", I ask. 

How about 25¢?

Fine with me. 

To her, it wasn't jewelry, and had no value. She was happy with the quarter, and it wasn't my responsibility to educate her in the value of her possessions. No more than it was my responsibility to tell a seller that had priced her own service for 12 sterling silver flatware that her asking price ($200) was less than the scrap value. She was "tired of polishing" and wanted to buy some stainless ware. Sigh! 

I was willing to pay a fair price, but not by first educating the seller. 

Harold


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## catfish

Hi Harold:

I find your post very interesting and informative. I would like to learn more about the refining of gold filled glasses. Here lately I have come into several pairs through my purchases and scrap hunts. I would like to know more about how to get the most from them. I have been taking them and cutting them up in small pieces and heating them to about 1000 degrees F in my oven and then dumping them in Aqua Regia, boil it for about 20 minutes at just a minimum boiling point and they seem to dissolve ok. Then I just treat them like all other refining. The yield seems to come out within expectations, but after reading your post, I feel like I might be missing something.

I am curious about the incineration process you mentioned and would certainly appreciate any suggestions or recommendations you could furnish me on this process. Harold, please keep in mind that I have a Paragon Oven that is capable of 2300 degrees F. What I have been doing is after cutting them up in small pieces is put them in a crucible and heating them. My question is, how hot should I get them before process them. Any information you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Have a good day.

Catfish


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## aflacglobal

That is one wise Catfish.


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## Harold_V

Hey catfish!



> Here lately I have come into several pairs through my purchases and scrap hunts. I would like to know more about how to get the most from them.



I'm not convinced you're leaving anything behind, but I'm of the opinion that you're fighting with the stuff a lot more than need be, between your incineration process and filtration of the gold chloride. 

When you get involved in quantities, the volume of solution you generate can take a long time to filter, and has a tendency to plug your filter. That can be eliminated entirely, with the benefit of precipitating much higher quality gold. I struggled with the process for a long time until I came up with a concept that really helped. 

For starters, I don't recommend dissolving the frames in AR. Gold filled articles are primarily base metals, including soft solders in some instances. Eliminating base metals prior to dissolving the gold is always a good idea, although I'm not suggesting that your approach doesn't work. I realize it does, but it's a process I avoided like the plague. 

I tried to make a distinction between recovering gold, and purifying gold. When you dissolve gold filled in AR, both operations are combined, yielding gold of questionable quality, guaranteed! Washing alone won't usually improve the gold to what I considered an acceptable standard. 

I processed the frames in nitric, then incinerated the remaining solids to eliminate any traces of nitric, followed by an HCL wash, which removed undesirable contaminants that made filtration of the gold chloride much easier. It also improved the quality of the gold that was precipitated. 

After the hard boil, water was added and the contents allowed to settle well. Once settled, the solution was decanted from the beaker, and, if clean enough, the solids were then dissolved in AR. If the solution was quite dirty, I'd rinse a second time before dissolving the gold. The balance of the operation was routine. 

One comment I'd make. When you process yellow gold, you're always producing traces of silver chloride. If you'll incinerate the filters and traces contained within, then store the ash, you'll be accumulating some serious value, and it won't take much space, and liberates no fumes. When you process the wastes in the future, you'll be pleasantly surprised to find you'll even have a considerable amount of gold included. The recovery from the ash is beyond the scope of this post, so I won't dwell on that issue. . 



> I am curious about the incineration process you mentioned and would certainly appreciate any suggestions or recommendations you could furnish me on this process. Harold, please keep in mind that I have a Paragon Oven that is capable of 2300 degrees F. What I have been doing is after cutting them up in small pieces is put them in a crucible and heating them. My question is, how hot should I get them before process them. Any information you could give me would be greatly appreciated.



I'll include a poor picture of the small furnace I used to incinerate the glass frames. It was fired by natural gas, so it burned absolutely clean, with no fumes. I simply dropped full pairs of eyeglasses in the furnace (with the glass removed) as it ran, and made sure they got exposed to the flame such that they were heated to redness. I moved the frames about with a short metal rod to insure all of them were properly exposed. They fall apart when they are hot enough, and the plastics that were included were fully incinerated, along with the oils that are ever present. I wasn't concerned about getting anything too hot, for the entire mass was removed and processed. Hinges and individual components were often all that remained, nothing that resembled a frame. By over heating the frames, the gold surface was usually disrupted to the point where acid would attack the base metal directly, so that was very helpful in penetrating the gold except in rare instances. 

I own two electric ovens, one of which is a 23 kw unit, and suited to heat treating steels. It can achieve temps that parallel those of which you speak, but to be brutally honest, there's no way I'd use either of them for gold refining. They're not necessary, and are not headed the right direction for the work at hand. If you were faced with hundreds of frames to process, this would come into focus immediately as you incinerated the frames. The burning plastic would be a serious issue, very unlike burning plastic in a flame. Again, that's not saying that what you're doing doesn't work, but it's not the easiest way to go. Cutting up hundreds of frames, for example, is wasted time, and I'd have more than a little trouble with the fumes from the plastic involved. 

If you have a specific question, fire away. I gave you a brief outline of how I processed the frames, but I'm willing to provide greater detail if you feel it would help. There's no doubt you're doing an adequate job---just differently than the way I ran them. 

Harold


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## Anonymous

Most of the threads that caught my eye are those of a month ago. I would have posted then, but I didn't join until today.

I've been buying scrap gold and silver since the early 80's. For many years I shipped everything gold to a refiner named Mr. Scott from Cleveland, Texas. He charged me 10% of the net metal recovered and sent me .999 casting pellets. Those where the "good ole days" for me. The only problem is, Mr. Scott was older than I am, consequently, he wore out and died first. 

For the last few years, I don't know what the _blankety-blank _to do with gold-filled, RGP, etc. I tried a number of different refiners that work for the public, and often I was always left with a bit of a knot in my stomach when all was said and done.

I'll only name drop to this extent: I tried Midwest Refineries three weeks ago. Within two weeks I got back a check for my offering. My "estimate" of my return when I shipped was $850.00 (+/-). The actual check was $818.00. To my glee, they were almost spot-on to my projection for the 10K and 14K gold and .925 silver. Included in the batch was just under 2 oz. of good looking gold-filled jewelry scrap.

Midwest kindly bought my gold-filled "outright" for $1.00. When I read that from the invoice, it would have been difficult to live up to my own poetic, philosophical motto: "Only the light hearted may dance on heat waves." I won't be sending them any more G.F. scrap.

There is a question in all this for any who care to respond? Since I am not a refiner, professional or hobby, does anyone have any ideas who will give a reasonable price for the G.F. material?

As for buying G.F. on the street, this has always worked pretty well for me: whatever I pay for scrap silver, I also offered for good-looking G.F. or RGP. Someone gave a worn watch as an example of an item where most of the gold may be worn off. I simply turn those items down. 

Cheers,
Lay Z Poet


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## lazersteve

Z,

Welcome to the forum.

If you are looking for a gold filled scrap buyer there are several of them here, including me. The standard formula I go by is simply a percentage of the calculated gold content. Typical 1/20 12kt GF is 2.5% 24 kt by weight. Catfish suggests paying 60% of spot to cover refining costs. I sometimes pay a little better than that, but prefer his formula to assure a profit for me.

If you want to learn refining yourself, you've come to the right place. Here's the newbies guided tour post:

Guided Tour

Have fun,

Steve


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## goldsilverpro

Was that a dollar a pound or a dollar per ounce?

*Refine It*
When new, the worst gold filled (10K, 1/40 - 1%gold) I've seen, runs about $100 per pound. The best I've ever seen ran 5.8%(14K, 1/10) - $580/pound. If you can get a lot of it, it might be worth thinking about refining. It might sound heretical but, I would shot it and dissolve everthing but gold nitric, even the gold is only 1% to 5.8%. The gold will be extremely fine, black/brown, hard to handle and hard to settle. You'll even have a little purple colloidal gold. It all will eventually settle, however. A little heat can help agglomerate (bring them together) the particles. Then, shut the heat off and let it settle. If you have glass fiber papers and a vacuum filter, you can filter it. After it settles, filter the top solution and then filter the gold, in the same filter. You can't use regular paper. It will go right through it. 

If you don't have a vacuum filter, you can settle the gold and then siphon the solution off. Add some rinse water, stir, settle, pour off, repeat a couple of times. Transfer the black powder to a beaker and dissolve it in aqua regia and go from there.

*Sell It* 

Here's the way I would do it
(1) Remove all non-gold filled materials, including grease or oil.
(2) Go through the material and sort it by markings. Keep unmarked stuff in a pile. You'll probably
(3) Weigh each pile and estimate the value per pound, based on the markings. You are now armed.
(4) Type in Google, "gold filled" scrap paying . There are literally 100's of refiners, taking in gold filled with toll-free numbers. Start calling them and getting quotes. Don't bullshit the buyer but, try to sell it. I would tell them that you're shopping around. See what they'll buy it for, outright, rather than refine it. See if they'll send you a quote, for exactly what you have, by fax (good luck). If they start changing things after they receive it, tell them to send it back. 

If they won't buy it, outright, see what their refining charges are. Shop around 

Make a decision. Do you want to sell it, have it refined, or refine it yourself. It's all economics.

If the lot is small, the buyer could care less. If it is pretty large, the buyer will want it.

Another wild way to sell this is to call around and find buyers that will buy it, for a good price, in ingot form. This would only work for large volume. They would buy it based on assay. A buyer may be hard to find. You would need a crucible furnace and molds. It would be better to have a furnace big enough so you only have one ingot. Otherwise you pay for assays for each ingot. You melt it - Cast it - Drill it - Have the drillings assayed - Put your stamp on the ingot - Make photos of drilled, stamped ingot(s) - Send the ingot to the buyer - Have the buyer drill it and assay it. Don't let the buyer re-melt it to do this. Have him drill the original ingot. Otherwise, don't let him alter it - When the refiner finishes the assay, have him give you a quote - Take the offer or have him return it.


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## catfish

Hi Z:

Welcome to the forum.

I refine quite a bit of gold filled and would be very interested in any gold filled you may want to sell. Of course my good friend Lazer Steve has first option. Seriously, if you have some that you would like to sell outright, I will buy it at 60% of expected yield. The gold filled material can be refined several different ways and the yield pretty well will always come out close to the theoretical yield expected. 

I have found it is hard to come out ahead if you pay more than 60% for it. The refining chemicals costs and labor will eat up any expected profit.

As Steve mentioned, 1/20th 12 karat gold filled will yield about .78 grams pure gold per ounce, or if 1/10th 12 karat gold filledt would be 1.56grams gold at the same karat and weight. Gold today is $672.80/31.1=21.63 per gram spot. 1/20th would run about price is $10.00 per ounce and about $20.00 per ounce buy price. If you wanted to refine it your self, you could expect to get about $16.53 per ounce for 1/20th and about $33.00 per ounce of 1/10th.

As Goldsilverpro sez, you have to make the decision, do you want to just sell it to a buyer or refine it and then sell as pure gold. The best price I can possible get is 98% spot for all my pure gold.

My buyer will not mess with anything less than 9 karat. He sez it is too much trouble to refine.

Catfish


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## lazersteve

Z,

I'm trying to get my gold filled refining DVD done by the end of the weekend if you want to hold off selling and refine it yourself. The DVD goes thru the whole process A to 'Z' :lol: !

Steve


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## Anonymous

Wow! I'm overwhelmed by the teriffic responses to my very first post. I am super impressed. You guys are great. Thank you all so very much.

To answer goldsilverpro's question:


> Was that a dollar a pound or a dollar per ounce?


 It was $1.00 total for the two ounces of g.f. in that particular submission to the refinery. 

As I said in my first post, I've usually tried to pay about the same price for decent lookng g.f. as I pay for .925 silver. Last year or two, that's been from $7 or $8 an ounce. Of course, at a garage sale, if a 5 gram g.f. item is marked 25c, who am I to insist they take more. 

Although I had never had gold filled refined separately from karat gold, my estimation of the ACV (actual cash value) of clean g.f. without excessive wear was $15 to $20 per ounce. That seems to be in the neighborhood of what I've seen posted in the forum.

I'm going to read the newbie guide to refining... with trepidation, however. The mental picture of my _non-chemist's_ shop explodiing; or melting my few remaining active brain cells by inhaling acid fumes, give rise to second and even third thoughts. Also, I'm too old to fumble around blinded from anxiously peering into my cauldron of hissing, disolving metals...

So much for so much...

Again, thanks all for the warm welcome. I look forward to participating in the forum.

Lay Z Poet
(aka) Charles


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## goldsilverpro

$7 or $8 per ounce - $102 to $116 per pound. Hmm. Are you treating all GF the same or, do you pay more for the good stuff ? How much are you selling the GF for? What do you base the $15 - $20 value on? That's $218 to $292 per pound. Sounds kinda high to me. Would the people you buy from take $3.50 per ounce? When you weigh the material on your scale, take out a chart and pretend to use it, take out your calculator and use it, look closely at the material again, and make an offer, the guy will usually sell it. Looks cut and dried and official.


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## aflacglobal

take out a chart and pretend to use it :shock: :shock: :shock: 

OMG OMG    
I can't stop laughing. :wink: 

If you only new how many times i have done the old let me look trick.
Try the let me make a phone call tick to. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Anonymous

where is the best place to send 14k scrap gold jewelry for refining? (best price) thanks [You mentioned that your refiner gives back 98%]


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## Lou

http://aragold.com

is the answer to your query. They have treated me well in all of my dealings with them.


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## JustinNH

Lou,

That place seems to be pretty good, especially at only 2% fee. Do they have any minimum amounts that need to be processed? I couldnt see anything on the site about it. I have around a troy ounce of 10k gold jewelry that I got for extremely cheap thanks to Walmart and others that I was thinking of sendign away. I know some places require more or only deal with professional scrap...

Thanks,


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## skyline27

They only charge 2%? That seems to good to be true. Am I missing something?

Would it be a good idea to send them gold buttons in return for marked bullion?


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## Harold_V

skyline27 said:


> Would it be a good idea to send them gold buttons in return for marked bullion?


That's when you'll discover that it's "too good to be true".

Harold


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## Lou

Yeah I'd advise against sending in processed gold to them in exchange for bars. They do let you buy gold and have them ''hold it'' or they'll process your gold, make it into an ingot and give it back to you (there may be a minimum amount) or hold it there and wait until you want to sell it.

I sent in a 5g 18K gold earring as my first transaction to test them out and I got a check that was better than I expected (gold went up ). 

I think Tom recommended me to them awhile ago and I've dealt with them on several occasions, sending upwards of 5 t. oz and everything came back as expected. I've also sent several ounces of old broken 14, 10 and 18K and not told them the mass on any of it, secretly keeping note of how much of each I had. I'm glad to say that the check I received was exactly what I expected out of the material.

They have been honest in all of my dealings with them, so I can say that I recommend them and will sell any of my gold to them preferentially over other refineries.


Lou


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## JustinNH

Good to know!
Just picked up some more damaged 10k jewelry for around $4 a gram so Im gettign a small collection going....


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## goldsilverpro

My son lives near Dallas and I've been helping him get set up to buy karat gold. I suggested that he try out the above-mentioned company that Tom Smith and Lou have been selling to.
http://aragold.com/

I called them the other day and this is what I was told:

They pay 98% over the counter (OTC) for karat gold. However, all OTC calculations are based on 1/2 karat less. For example, 14K is figured as 13.5K. The 3-5 day period, mentioned on the website, is based on a melt and assay, in which case they would pay 98% of the assay. They don't pay for the Ag in karat gold or the Pd in older white gold.

OTC, they pay 88% of the calculated silver content of 92.5% for sterling.

OTC, they pay 80% of the Pt content of Pt jewelry. For Pt/Ir, the Pt runs 90%. For Pt/Ru jewelry, the Pt runs 95%. They don't pay for the Ir or Ru.

These prices seem pretty good to me. Since my son lives close, I told him to buy for 1/2K under and sell everything OTC. The old "bird in hand" thing.


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## Harold_V

goldsilverpro said:


> They pay 98% over the counter (OTC) for karat gold. However, all OTC calculations are based on 1/2 karat less. For example, 14K is figured as 13.5K.


That goes well with my experiences of long ago. Marking regulations allowed for a full karat under if an item was fabricated. Items such as class rings were------and bordered on being 9K, yet it was legal to mark them 10K because of the ½ K allowance for solder, and the ½K allowance for alloying error. It stands to reason that the major manufacturers would take advantage of the lower karat in that the missing gold was replaced with elements of a much lower specific gravity, thus actually increasing the volume by roughly 10%. That was a considerable amount of profit for the makers. 

Newer marking regulations dictate the loose tolerance is no longer acceptable, but a huge amount of old gold still remains. It's wise to make calculations on the light side if profit is your game.

Nice post, GSP. 

Harold


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## JustinNH

I just sent ARA an email with a few questions, so hopefully they get back to me soon and if I like what they have to say Ill be sending them my jewelry. Thanks for the recommendation!


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## Ignatz61

I have a question about refining goldfilled scrap.
I may have several pounds of material to refine soon. I am having a tough time getting Nitric Acid. SO I am looking at alternate methods. I have a sulfuric cell made and have run plated material through it with good success.
I know from posts I have read here somewhere that the cell can strip goldfilled items but it takes a long time. 
I am wondering if I set up a modified Mobius cell using lead for the box and a lead anode that would sandwich the scrap in between them. I know there cannot be a fabic bag around it as the acid would eat it.
Will this work? or am I going a hundred miles to avoid a ten mile journey?
john


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## lazersteve

Check this post:

Poorman's AR

I wrote it for ceramic cpus, but you can use it on Gold Filled if you have the patience for it to complete. Be sure everything is dissolved (except the silver chloride) before you proceed to filtering and precipitation. If your gold filled has considerable stainless you can stop the reaction just after the items are fully dissolved. The gold should have self precipitated (dark brown powder) along with the silver chloride from the iron in the steel. Use your stannous to confirm the there is no gold in the liquid if going this route. I find that the gold tends to be in both forms (solid brown powder and dissolved in the solution).

Dilute nitric is still the ultimate way to dissolve gold filled scrap.

The cell and poor man's AR are both very close for second best.

Steve


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## Ignatz61

Ok,
I have researched goldfilled materials and I have read all the posts that a search brings up on this forum. I am a bit confused, I have 14k goldfilled wire. I don't know if it 1/10 or 1/20.

I am processing it in a sulfuric acid cell,My questions are:

1: will the gold I get from the black sludge be 14k or will the silver stay behind?

2: How do I judge when the gold is all off, will the foaming stop like plated material?

3: What is left behind? the wire is non-magnetic so I am thinking copper? Is there a standard base metal for goldfilled?

4. Will there be any values left behind that I should think about refining later? Right now I am only looking for the gold quantity.
would it pay to dissolve in poormans AR the wire after I have removed the gold in the cell.

There seems to be some real experts here. I am hoping you guys can shed some lioght on this for me and any other newbies looking to refing goldfilled material.
Thanks 
John


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## Harold_V

A sulfuric cell for gold filled is not the best choice. You'd be far better served to dissolve the base metals instead of trying to extract the gold. 

Harold


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## Ignatz61

Nitric it is then!

My father always told me "when in the presence of experienced people, Keep your eyes and hears open and your mouth shut."

I finally got my hands on 1 liter of 6 molar nitric acid. Should I use this stright or dilute it?

I have 3 1/2 lbs of goldfilled 14k wire will this be enough to disolve all of it?


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## Harold_V

I am quite sure you don't have enough nitric. It might pay you to explore one of the work-arounds that others use to eliminate base metals. 

As far as dilution, you'll get better mileage from nitric by adding water. If it's very dilute, the work it can do will be the same, it just takes a little longer. Heating will cut short the amount of time necessary to dissolve the base metals, and insure that you have consumed all of the acid. That's important as you near the end of a cycle, when you can't tell if action has slowed because all the base metal is gone, or the acid has been consumed. 

When you process gold filled materials, it's always a good idea to get all of the solids together after eliminating the base metals. Incinerate to kill any traces of nitric, plus to eliminate any combustibles, then boil the remains in HCl. Rinse well, then dissolve the values. That way your gold chloride solution will filter easily. Be certain to introduce a few drops of sulfuric acid after you're dissolved the material, which will insure that any lead present will be precipitated as lead sulfate and get filtered out. 

Harold


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## Ignatz61

Thanks harold,
I am loving this forum, SO I guess AP for the base metals. Wait, what about the silver? After the base metal (copper or brass) is disolved I will still have 14 k gold. Should I then use nitric acid on the remaining metal to remove the silver? Then AR or HCL-Cl to disolve the gold.
This would be great my material would be split into 3 containers!
1. base metal
2 silver
3. gold.
(I could use the silver nitrate for the silver cell I want to make as I have a bunch of silver coming soon in the way of photographic flake. After processing the flake i want to use a mobius cell to refine the silver.)

Am I on the right track here?
john


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## Harold_V

Your particular product may not contain lead or silver. It might pay you to dissolve a tiny amount with nitric and see if you get a precipitate of silver chloride. If you use less acid than you have material, you'll see silver cement out on the remaining wire as quickly as the nitric is consumed. Otherwise, place a few drops of the blue solution in a small container and introduce some HCl or salt. If you don't get a cloud, you may not have silver in the gold alloy. All depends on the intended purpose of the wire. If the wire is rose red, pretty good chance it's just gold and copper. 

Assuming it tests silver, don't expect much--likely no more than 10% of the amount of gold recovered, if that. Still, it's worth recovering. 

As far as using any of the work-arounds, I'm not worth a damn where instruction is concerned. I never used any of them, so I'm not familiar with how they behave. Steve would likely be able to provide answers to your questions. 

Harold


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## Ignatz61

Boy this is really frustrating!
I have this small batch of a few lbs of the 14k gold filled wire shown here. It is all new wire from a jewelry manufacturer so wear is not an issue.
I have cut it into 1/2" pieces to aid in acid digestion. I put 100 grams in Nitric for 2 days. I switched the acid twice and while some pieces are now hollow many still have solid center sections. I have used 500ml and only have 1 more 500ml bottle.

Time being short I started another batch this time 10 grams. 

I need to quote on a much larger batch soon based on the yield from this test batch. So my thinking is if there is no time to dissolve and wash and melt, I could weigh the foils from either the 100 g or 10 g samples and determine the actual percent of gold for the wire and extrapolate that to a larger batch quoting 75% of the gold value. 

The real problem seems to be the small surface area exposed to the acid. Only the ends of the wire! Cutting it small is a pain but seems to help.
Also, some of the wire seems to strip much faster than others. there is about 4 different profiles , all supposed to be 14k. The square seems to go much faster than some of the rounds. Are there known fillers for gold filled that are hard for the acid to dissolve?

I could really use some help here.
*How much Nitric should it take to dissolve 10 or 100grams of this wire?
what is the dilution ratio?* I am starting with 6 molar nitric.

I tested the cell on a piece, then put the remainder in Nitric figuring if I got all the gold with the cell then there would be nothing left after the nitric did it's thing. After 1 day there was still a thin hollow shell, so the cell did not get everything.

I tried a saltwater cell with a copper cathode(-) and the wire as the (+). This should have ripped the copper out but seemed to dissolve everything. It worked fast but made a brown mud that looked like a lot of work to sort out.
I have another 100 grams in AP but that is going sooooo sloow!

Finally, I have put 10 grams more in a small rock tumbler! I tested the grit with Nitric, HCL and AR none of them effect the grit. So my plan is to let it tumble, stripping off the gold outer layer and maybe some of the copper or brass. Next pick out he remaining wire pieces and cover the powder (grit+gold+copper, silver , brass etc) in Nitric acid or AP to dissolve the base metals that are now very exposed. Then filter and process the rest with AR. Filter the grit out and drop the gold with SMB.
As you can see I am grasping for straws! This whole Nitric thing is new to me, I have the sulfuric cell working great now I would like to master this. But I could use some help.
thanks,
john


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## lazersteve

If the wire responds to a magnet it most likely has at the very least a partial stainless steel core.

For Gold Filled over stainless I have found that the modified poor mans AR works best.

Here's a link to the process:

Modified Poorman's AR

The outline is for CPUs, but the process also works for gold filled items with stainless cores with a little modification.

With gold filled stainless steel the AR will need to be poured off and changed after it becomes dark green (saturated with iron and/or salts form). This process is very similar to how Harold has recommended AR with certain items. The idea is to remove the base metal with 2-3 successive AR treatments. After the cores are removed from the gold shells a final batch of AR is used to dissolve the rinsed shells.

I have successfully dissolved several pounds of GF material in one batch on many occasions using this process.

Steve


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## Harold_V

lazersteve said:


> The idea is to remove the base metal with 2-3 successive AR treatments. After the cores are removed from the gold shells a final batch of AR is used to dissolve the rinsed shells.



No----that's not what happens, unless you meant to say AP, not AR. Because gold is exposed to the solution, it will dissolve, but as the level (of acid) falls off, the exposed base metal will precipitate (cement) the dissolved gold, leaving it behind as fine mud, likely dark brown to black. If stainless is involved, this is going to be a nasty proposition because once gold is put in solution, it can't precipitate on the remaining gold, only the remaining base metals. The ideal scenario would be to get all of the gold in solution about the time the acid ran out. The base metal would then be dissolved in the process of cementing the gold. A delicate balance, to be sure, but it's a way of getting rid of the base metal. 

Assuming the chain is copper based, boiling the material in nitric is a good way to go, and incinerating the material to redness before you start isn't a bad idea, either. 

A stripping cell of any kind won't work because the copper that's present in the alloy protects the gold, and the gold that's present protects the copper, so it's difficult to strip the alloy. 

Right now, what might be important to determine is what the base metal is. If it's stainless, you're wasting your time with nitric------but your comment that you have achieved some success indicates it is not. Incinerating, cutting to short lengths, then a hard boil in nitric should work, assuming it's copper based alloy. If it is copper based, as the ends dissolve, stir the lot to break off the gold tubes, making the path to the core shorter. That should accelerate the process. Better yet, run the wire through a set of rolls and flatten it as thin as you can. Acid will perforate the gold coating easily that way. 

Harold


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## Ignatz61

Thanks for the quick reply!

The base metals is copper and some may be brass. Nothing magnetic. 
I am a bit confused about the nitric. When first put in with the wire I get the red/brown fumes.( All precuations taken, covered beaker , exhaust ...)

When the red fumes stop is the nitric done? Or do I boil at that point to get the reaction going again? 

How do I know when the nitric has nothing left and needs to be changed?

About how much nitric acid should it takes to dissolve 100 grams of copper/brass?
john


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## Ignatz61

Here is what the solution looks like.


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## lazersteve

Harold said:


> No----that's not what happens, unless you meant to say AP, not AR. Because gold is exposed to the solution, it will dissolve, but as the level (of acid) falls off, the exposed base metal will precipitate (cement) the dissolved gold, leaving it behind as fine mud, likely dark brown to black.



Harold,

It's not too often that I disagree with what you have posted, but in this instance I have seen the results with my own eyes. I am merely reporting what I have observed first hand. I have repeated the results on multiple batches.

The key difference from the 'normal' AR process and the modified version of poor man's AR (nitrate salt and HCl) may be that with the modified Poor man's method the HCl is added first and allowed to react with heating *before* adding any nitrate salt. This colors the HCl deep green with dissolved iron and some copper [edit] if present [/edit].

The best that I can figure is that the dissolved base metals in solution prevent the gold from being attacked to larger extent when the nitrate is added this way. The nitrate salt does not form nitric immediately, typically there is a delay as it dissolves in the hot acid. Another difference may be due to the fact that the nitrate is added in very small portions and allowed to react completely.

To a slight degree the gold shells are attacked, but not like they would be when normal AR is used. I use this modified process all the time and every single time I do, more than 50% of the shells remain intact. The remaining shells, along with any thin items dissolve and re-precipitate as the familiar brown powder.

I'll be dissolving a batch this weekend (or sooner) and I'll post a few photos of the process with the results.


Steve


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## lazersteve

Gnatz,

I use roughly 3.5 mL of 70% nitric per gram of copper based scrap.

Dilute the nitric with an equal volume of water.

You know it's done when nothing except hollow gold shells, gold flakes, and/or dark powder remains in the bottom of the beaker. 

I use a pointed bamboo skewer to test the shells, if the skewer pierces the shell easily the shell is stripped. I also go by the sound the shells make when the liquid is swirled in the beaker. They will move about the solution easier and make a tickle or tinkle sound.

My experience with GF wires is that the gold shell tends to break apart more as the core is dissolved. With watch cases, rings, and other larger gold filled items the shells will remain intact to some degree.

Steve


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## Ignatz61

Thanks Steve,

So 350 ml + 350 ml water for 100 grams of wire.

I don't know how to convert Molar to %. Is the 6 Molar Nitric I got close to 70%?

Also the foils that will be left should be free of pretty much all base metals and any silver alloyed with the gold. So if I weigh the foils I should be able to calculate to amount of gold in larger batches ( allowing for melt loss) right?
john


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## Harold_V

lazersteve said:


> Harold,
> 
> It's not too often that I disagree with what you have posted, but in this instance I have seen the results with my own eyes. I am merely reporting what I have observed first hand. I have repeated the results on multiple batches.


I don't have a problem with that, Steve. My experiences have all come from the use of commercially prepared nitric, so I did not take into account that you may have been reporting on circumstances totally different from those I experienced. 

I know that what I said holds true in the circumstances I described, having used the particular system purposely when refining a large batch of mixed dental wastes. It was faster and easier to eliminate the unwanted metals that way than to test each individual piece, a long, slow process. 

Harold


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## qst42know

I would finish the refining before calculating your potential yield. A small amount of base metals remaining could add up to a large error once multiplied.


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## Ignatz61

Yes I agree a small error could be come larger as the multiples increase.
My main objective is to determine the best method for me and to verify the formulas given here.
My results:

10 grams of14k goldfilled wire cut to 1/2" lengths
formula-(14/24)*(10 grams)*(1/20)=grams of pure gold
.583*10*.05=.291 grams pure gold

Test 1- 10 grams of material in dilute NItric acid, after all base metals disolved foils washed and dried then weighed
Yield=.345grams (Some brown fibers remained as well)

Test 2- tumbled 10 grams of wire until gold was stripped off
yield=.2 grams

So I think (allowing for the insoluble fibers) I will use .25 grams per 10 gram batch 
That means 1 oz of material would be
31.1 grams / 10 x .25=.778grams/oz of pure gold
Do these number seem right to you guys?


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## butcher

??? 31.1g /10x0.25=.778 ??? this equation doesn't make sense to me.

But your approximation seems right with your figures,.
If 10 grams of scrap gave a quarter gram of gold, then a troy ounce of scrap should yield approximate three quarter gram gold.


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## Ignatz61

I wanted to know the yield per oz so
1 troy oz (31.1 grams) / my test batch(10 grams) x my yield for 10 grams(.25 grams)
31.1 / 10 x .25 = .778 grams per troy oz
does this make sence?


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## SilverFox

The equation just isn't text book format.

Looks fine to me, My algebra is rusty but I think that is it, all I have done for years is basic off gas calculations.


Don't forget (please my dear ant Sally), If you will...

X
_____ = C
(Y*B)


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## Anonymous

Sorry 31.1 divided by 2.5 does not equal .778

31.1/10 times .25 does, I think.

Jiim

Edit messed up 2nd formula removed


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## butcher

No not how I figured it. 31.103 / 39.97 = 0.778  
who cares about the math, Lets just get some gold then see how much we have and how much less it is than we hoped for.

edit yes 31.1/10=3.11 3.11x0.25=.7775 
now lets disolve and see.


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## Ignatz61

I am having a hard time disolving it. I cornflaked all the pins to help with exposing the base metals to the acid. I still can't get even 100g to disolve.
it fizzes and I even get a little brown cloud, when that stops I heat to slight boil. More fizzing but the pieces seem relatively unchanged. I am diluting 50/50 with water. 
*Can someone tell me about how much Nitric acid it should take to disolve 1 lb of 14k gold filled scrap (new)?*
thanks,
john


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## goldsilverpro

Standard technical grade nitric is about 15.5 Molar, or a little less. One gallon of it will dissolve about 2 pounds of copper. For maximum speed and the elimination of crystallization, I usually dilute it 50/50 with water. Therefore, one gallon of 50/50 tech grade nitric (about 7.8 Molar) will dissolve about one pound of copper. 

If my math is right, one liter of 6M nitric will dissolve about 93 grams of copper. 
(6M/15.5M)(2 lb-Cu/gal)(454 gm/lb)/(3.785 liters/gal) = 92.8 gm-Cu/liter of 6M nitric. 

After dilution, you had 3M nitric. As Harold said, this dilute acid will work but it will go slow. You probably shouldn't have diluted it. These numbers above are only fairly close approximations, depending on the exact copper alloy - your acid might already be saturated with base metals.

I do sort of agree with shotting the gold filled. The nitric works faster and the copper and silver in the karat gold are also dissolved, leaving a fairly pure gold that is easily dissolved in AR. The problem is that the gold is usually very finely divided, sometimes near colloidal (purple/black slime), which can make settling and filtering very difficult, if not close to impossible. Sometimes the fine particles can be somewhat agglomerated, before filtering, by heating the solution for a period of time. If the solution is heated, replace the evaporated water before cooling. Otherwise, the copper nitrate could form crystals.

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/equipment/molarity.html


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## Ignatz61

Ok,
So I am in need of significantly more Nitric (acid by GSP's calculations about 8 Liters.)
Now I understand why there is so much interest here in making your oun nitric.

Can the copper be removed from the spent nitric to breathe new life into it?


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## lazersteve

Yes, copper nitrate can be recycled to nitric acid via decomposition or electrolytically.

GSP's math reinforces the ~3.5 mL (actually 3.66 mL according to Hoke) per gram of 70% nitric as I previously stated. I just did not do the calculations for you based upon your 6M acid. You should have just multiplied the mL I gave you by the molar ratio of 70% to your acid molarity (15.5/6 = 2.58 * 3.66 mL ~= 9.44 mL per gram of copper based for 6M).

Remember about half of your nitric goes up in smoke (NOx= Red Fumes) as it is used so you will lose half of the nitric with each use unless you capture the fumes.

Steve


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## butcher

I get back the nitric from copper nitrate, by adding concentrated sulfuric and ditilling it to clear nitric acid, bubbling gas into a small bit of water.


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## Ignatz61

Ok,
I think I have the hot set up for getting the gold out of my gold filled shot.

I have cast anodes and set up a copper cell. I used Ammen's (sp?) formula- 250 g/l copper sulfate, 78 g/l sulfuric acid and distilled water. My anode connected to +6v ~2amp , a copper sheet connected to the cathode. I like this because I can reuse the electolye. I filter it to collect the gold and reuse the clean solution, adding a pinch of acid each time.

This worked good but some of the copper crystals keep breaking off and contaminating the gold slimes. Now I have the anode in a filter bag hopefully this will keep them separate.

I am having a hard time disolving the rouge copper crystals that are mixed with my gold powder. I may not be giving it enough time but I tried AP, Hot HCL, Hot sulphuric acid, now I have dilute Nitric on it.

Are pure copper crystals particularly hard to disolve? 
Anybody have any ideas on how to separate the gold and copper once they are mixed? Can I disolve the gold without the copper?


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## butcher

I would refine it , nitric, then disolve gold HCl/bleach or Aqua Regia.


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## Ignatz61

Thanks, That's the way I was leaning. I tried dilute nitric for 1 hour, Nothing happened. I added HCL turning it into AR and everything disolved and the AR is green.
I will need to get some urea I guess. It will be a few days until all the anodes are digested then I'll put all the slimes in AR.
I expect to see silver, gold and copper and zinc? from the brass wire?
the silver will remain behind when I fliter the AR. SMB should bring down my gold and leave the copper for the most part in solution. Right?

Correct me if I am going about this wrong. But it seems like this will get rid of most if not all of the copper in the gold filled shot. This way I use way less Nitric acid disolving what is left.


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## butcher

from your cell I would have rinsed the powders well hot water wash's, then heated them on high heat (>700 deg) to drive off any remaining acids, then disolved powders in nitric acid 50/50 solution, this should dissolve the silver copper brass basically the base metals and pallladium can also disolve in nitric, this will not disolve the gold or other PGM's, letting this powder settle well and remove liquid (if silver and pallidium can be recovered from this liquid, of coarse not every bit of base metals will magically disapear but most will be removed with nitric, now you can use aqua regia, all metals must be disolved, but do not use more acid than it takes to disolve them, once disolved let settle decant solution of values, could use urea ( no fizz when warm PH>1), but if you haven't got practice with urea it can be tricky, boiling off nitric is usually better in my opinion, and if you didn't use more nitric than you needed would be simple, boil down solution to concentrate almost syrup, but not till crystals form, wet solution with a small amount of HCl, boil down again, wet Hcl, boil down again this last time add a few drops of sulfuric acid and boil little , add water till solution is three time its volume or more, let sit at least over night, if nitric did not get all of the silver or lead you will see them form in this solution(lead and silver chloride can be seperated in boiling water later), decant or pour off liguid filter, now that you have gotton rid of nitric you can precipitate the gold, you can make ferrous sulfate or buy sodium metabisulfite SMB, or use one of other chemicals to bring your gold out of this solution as a brown powder, this gold powder will need a good washing (see Harolds technique), and reprocessed again in aqua regia for a very fine gold. if you had platinum in solution solution would need concentrated ,then you can use ammonium chloride to precipitate PT. if palladium use sodium chlorate to precipitate the Pd.

since your solution is green you have copper and or nickel in it now, if mainly gold is a yellow solution.
hope this helps you and i didnt leave out some thing here,

edited: sodium chlorate to precipitate palladium (not table salt NaCl), mitake caught by sharp eye of platdigger thanks.


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## Palladium

8)


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## aflacglobal

8)


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## Lionhead

I'm looking for some help. I'm getting approximately 10kg a month of these gold pins & contacts, for about $55 CAD per kg, including shipping, insurance & etc. Can anyone tell me if this is a good deal, or am I over-paying.


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## goldsilverpro

There's lots of variables, lots of varieties, and a range of values. Hard to answer your questions with any degree of accuracy.


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## Lionhead

I'm trying to post a picture of the pins and contacts that I'm refering too, having a little trouble uploading it


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