# Questons on using the AP method



## azgard (Nov 9, 2010)

i am going to try the AP method on a bunch of gold plated fingers and board compoents i got. i have used a similar process using a chemical from Shor international but that was very expensive. i have watched all the videos on here about it but a few things i am wondering about. on the video he saved out the greed acid/peroxide mixture becouse some gold had gone into solution. how do you precipitate that is it the same way as doing it after dissolving the flakes using the SMB. and also the SMB is show in liquid form how is that mixed is it with water or something else.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 9, 2010)

If there is some gold dissolved in AP just keep using mixture until saturated with copper. Gold will be pushed out of solition in form of brown/black powder. If you do not plan to use this mixture anymore or do not have more fingers, put sheet of copper in bucket, gold will cement out on this copper.
SMB is sold in form of white powder you can add powder to AuCl directly while stirring or premix with water and add to AuCl.


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## Anonymous (Nov 9, 2010)

azgard said:


> i have used a similar process using a chemical from Shor international


If you are referring to CBX,it is simply anhydrous ferric chloride,you can get the same chemical on ebay for a fraction of the cost and mix it yourself,or you can use the AP method from the forum for a fraction of "that" cost.
Pretty much EVERYTHING that Ishor sells is basically another "easy to obtain" chemical that they have simply given a fancy name to.
CBX = Anhydrous Ferric Chloride
Storm precipitant = Sodium Metabisulphite
Subzero = Sodium Nitrate
Precious metal detection liquid = Stannous Chloride
Strip Free Solution = Sulfuric Acid
Ammonia detection liquid = basic ammonia

If you add peroxide in the appropriate quantities you should have no dissolved gold.However if you end up with some gold in solution,precipitate as per patnor's instructions.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 9, 2010)

It happen to me once that even small addition of H2O2 may dissolve some gold. I had few boards with very light "flash" plating on edges from plasma and LCD Tv`s and i noticed that this plating was dissolved. Value is very small however it is not lost as it can be accumulated and recovered later.


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## azgard (Nov 9, 2010)

also another thing i was wondering in the videos where he was precipitating the gold the solution is in a large glass jar with a cover. What are those called i would like to find a couple. and i am going to try the AP method sometime in the next couple weeks or so. i live where its cold and average daytime temps are in the 40s and night time in the 20s. would this work ok being left out in the cold the 24+ hours the fingers have to soak for.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 9, 2010)

Reaction will be slower in colder temperatore. However I did few batches in temperatures around 0. I do not do this in 24hrs. I usually leave them in bucket for week or sometimes weeks.


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## butcher (Nov 9, 2010)

Wal-Mart sold some large jars (canisters in kitchen supply's) with lids, similar to what I think they called battery jars, about 2 gallon and one gallon (canister) jars, these cannot be heated on hot plate directly, but could if sand bath was used and low temperature, I have used fish tank heater in the past. Now I use heater pads with a light dimmer circuit or second hand crock pots with lids. Most all my lab equipment is from kitchen ware or canning type or pickle jars, I have bought some nice lab ware but cannot bring myself to use it (even for distilling), as I do not cry when I break my second hand kitchen ware, even my watch glass was from an old clock, broke it after two years of use, well guess I am going to have to find another clock to get the watch glass. Old automatic coffee maker and coffee pot works well for heating, also Some other things that come in handy, kitchen blender, White corning ware skillet and baking pots, the amber (not sure I have color right) or violet glass stovetop skillet, plastic type cup with screen in bottom, funnels, glass rods or fiberglass rods, hot plates, propane stove, cipher tools look like eye droppers (pipettes?), and suction bulb on a plastic syringe cannot remember what they call these but they are great for decanting solutions, or transferring liquids or starting ciphering of hoses, this list can go on and on.

What can I say it’s hard for me to give up my hillbilly ways, and use real expensive lab ware, when people throw away the lab equipment that works so well for me?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Nov 9, 2010)

butcher said:


> Wal-Mart sold some large jars (canisters in kitchen supply's) with lids, similar to what I think they called battery jars, about 2 gallon and one gallon (canister) jars, these cannot be heated on hot plate directly, but could if sand bath was used and low temperature, I have used fish tank heater in the past. Now I use heater pads with a light dimmer circuit or second hand crock pots with lids. Most all my lab equipment is from kitchen ware or canning type or pickle jars, I have bought some nice lab ware but cannot bring myself to use it (even for distilling), as I do not cry when I break my second hand kitchen ware, even my watch glass was from an old clock, broke it after two years of use, well guess I am going to have to find another clock to get the watch glass. Old automatic coffee maker and coffee pot works well for heating, also Some other things that come in handy, kitchen blender, White corning ware skillet and baking pots, the amber (not sure I have color right) or violet glass stovetop skillet, plastic type cup with screen in bottom, funnels, glass rods or fiberglass rods, hot plates, propane stove, cipher tools look like eye droppers (pipettes?), and suction bulb on a plastic syringe cannot remember what they call these but they are great for decanting solutions, or transferring liquids or starting ciphering of hoses, this list can go on and on.
> 
> What can I say it’s hard for me to give up my hillbilly ways, and use real expensive lab ware, when people throw away the lab equipment that works so well for me?



Use your lab glass, it is worth it.


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## Anonymous (Nov 9, 2010)

butcher said:


> What can I say it’s hard for me to give up my hillbilly ways, and use real expensive lab ware, when people throw away the lab equipment that works so well for me?


I can agree with that.I have tons of lab glass(and 2 more cases coming from lazer steve)but only because I am willing to wait until the right auction comes along,and get it when it is rediculously cheap.I have a couple of cases of beakers stored away,and a lot of crucibles that came from a silver mine in mexico,coffee containers with sealable lids,cups from the kitchen,countless plastic spoons from wal-mart,tens of thousands of 5-gallon coffee filters.And you guys saw how I made my ball mill,I have somewhere around $60 into the whole thing.I have been on this forum a long time,and I love the idea that so many people are willing to try so many different things to save money,just to end up with the same result as everyone else.And then turn around and share that with everyone here.
I may have a lot of really nice lab stuff now,but I guarantee I paid next to nothing for it,all you need is a lot of patience,and a lot of faith.


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## lazersteve (Nov 9, 2010)

When performing the AP reaction to dissolve copper it's fine to use plastic buckets. 

When you dissolve the gold foils or powder be sure the reaction vessel is made of a heat (thermal shock) resistant material and has a smooth inner wall all the way up to the top. The glass container I used in the early video is not a good choice as it's inner wall curls inward near the top lip. This curl catches the precipitated gold and makes it difficult to remove the gold powder. The vessel I used in the original video is also thick which is bad if the vessel needs to be heated for any reason. It will be more likely to crack from the thermal shock than a nice pyrex beaker.

Steve


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## patnor1011 (Nov 9, 2010)

Yes. Never attempt do precipitate gold in plastic container. Their surface is not smooth when you stirring in them. I did this once and now I am proud owner of plastic container with gold powder trapped inside damaged inner surface of container. Not tenough to warrant dissolving again but nice to remind me that glass is better choice everytime when I precipitate gold again. :mrgreen:


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 9, 2010)

> Never attempt do precipitate gold in plastic container. Their surface is not smooth when you stirring in them. I did this once and now I am proud owner of plastic container with gold powder trapped inside damaged inner surface of container. Not tenough to warrant dissolving again but nice to remind me that glass is better choice everytime when I precipitate gold again.



I don't agree with this at all. I know that Harold won't like this but, since I usually had more than 1 gallon, I most always dropped my gold in white plastic buckets. To clean up what (always) was stuck to the bucket, I cut about a 3/4" square piece of a green 3M scrub pad and used that on the tip of my finger(s) with a little water. That loosened all the gold and I could easily rinse the inside down with a squirt bottle and then rinse the small amount of gold powder into the filter. Just keep it wet (if the powder dries on the bucket, start over), work fast, and you'll get it all. This might have taken 60 seconds total. I used the same buckets and the same little green pad over and over. If you decide you don't want to ever refine any more, wipe the inside of the buckets with a folded damp paper towel to collect any traces that are left and put the towel in the to-be-burned container. A little gold might stick to the pad but most all of that is easily rinsed out with a squirt bottle.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 9, 2010)

I do not question this Chris, I said that because of amounts involved. You probably processed more gold in one day than I did in my whole life ... If larger amounts are involved plastic buckets are necessity.


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## Anonymous (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok this is killing me here.I want to comment so bad,but it means I will have to disagree with either steve or chris.Something I am not wanting to do.I have known steve since the beginning of 07' and I have huge respect for chris.You know what?It won't kill me to stay out of this one.I know what worked for me in the past,and I'll keep it to myself.I respect both of you too much to disagree with either of you.
But I will say thanks to both of you(and of COURSE harold!),for bringing me where I am.I was telling a member the other day that I've been processing for about 6 years,but I really didn't know much until I joined here sometime around april of 07'.I wish I could convey my appreciation,but alas,I will have to settle for....."Thank you very much!"


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## Barren Realms 007 (Nov 9, 2010)

No need to take sides both types of containers have thier respective place in the process.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 9, 2010)

mic said:


> Ok this is killing me here.I want to comment so bad,but it means I will have to disagree with either steve or chris.Something I am not wanting to do.I have known steve since the beginning of 07' and I have huge respect for chris.You know what?It won't kill me to stay out of this one.I know what worked for me in the past,and I'll keep it to myself.I respect both of you too much to disagree with either of you.
> But I will say thanks to both of you(and of COURSE harold!),for bringing me where I am.I was telling a member the other day that I've been processing for about 6 years,but I really didn't know much until I joined here sometime around april of 07'.I wish I could convey my appreciation,but alas,I will have to settle for....."Thank you very much!"



Except in rare cases, there are no absolutes in this business. Everyone develops there own way of doing things. 

Speak up!


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## nickvc (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm with both of you over which containers to use to drop gold in. When I was processing quantities of gold I used white plastic buckets but if smaller individual jobs were going through then glass beakers were my choice but like Chris I never had any problems with the plastic buckets and again used the same way to clean any metal off the sides. 
If the buckets got past use I always swilled them out with a little AR and added it to other solutions in the system before slinging them out.


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## Harold_V (Nov 10, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> I know that Harold won't like this



No comment, although I used NOTHING but glassware for gold precipitation. In large volumes, too. 

Harold


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## Oz (Nov 10, 2010)

I know both Chris and Harold have processed rather large quantities on a daily basis. Just how much, I do not know. 

What I do know is that I have not outgrown my 4L beakers in my precipitations (probably never will). You can pack a lot of gold in 4 liters. 

Now if you get above those quantities daily would I consider 5 gallon buckets, yes. The amount of gold lost to the sides of a bucket (temporarily) is very small compared to the total.

Another consideration is that Harold did toll refining and had to be accountable for every grain for each and every lot to claim honesty. If I am not mistaken GSP typically was refining gold that had already been bought and paid for so accountability as to a single lot was not a concern. I am sure he did not let values walk out the door though.

Mush of this is dependant on the operation you are running.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> goldsilverpro wrote:
> I know that Harold won't like this
> 
> No comment, although I used NOTHING but glassware for gold precipitation. In large volumes, too.
> ...





goldsilverpro said:


> Except in rare cases, there are no absolutes in this business. Everyone develops there own way of doing things.
> 
> Speak up!


Well I care about you guys (especially harold),and I may be worried about this too much,so I will just put it this way.When I started out I was not refining for another company,nor for any other individuals.Like most recreational refiners,I simply did it for myself.I did not have a lot of money or resources,and certainly not a lot of smarts for this.So I used what I had a my disposal,which of course were buckets.I would use any size,or shape that would fit my need.I used,and still use,a plastic drinking glass to dissolve my copperas,or smb(when I used to use it).I have made several furnaces,countless ceramic crucibles,and of course you guys have seen my new ball mill.Heck just the other day I needed to melt a one ounce button(thanks again barren) but I had run out of acetylene,so I used my little propane torch with the air vents in the torch tip,and shot my oxygen straight into one of the vents......worked like a dream.
I currently own an incredible amount of lab glass,and I constantly buy more as I come across deals that I just cannot pass up.I can't imagine not using my big beakers to process in...........HOWEVER,I have to agree with chris.
I would not hesitate for a second to run a batch in a 5 gallon bucket again.My best friend processed almost 1.5 troy POUNDS of gold in 3 weeks using nothing but 5 gallon buckets and a coffee pot(thats my hero).He had little experience,little to start with,but endless amounts of determination and energy.
I think there is an old saying somewhere that says "You can only do what you can do,with what you have."or something like that.Well that is where I was,when I started this.
I have endless amounts of respect and gratitude for you steve,but I'd use a 5 gallon bucket in a heartbeat if that is all I had to work with.


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## azgard (Nov 10, 2010)

i am working on getting the stuff i need. i am now looking for good glass container to precipitate the gold in i already got some new buckets and i ordered a set of 4 beakers up to 1000ml for measuring. the 4000-5000ml beakers are very expensive. what would be a good item to use to do the that in.


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## Harold_V (Nov 11, 2010)

Unless you are processing several ounces of gold at one time, there is no need for large beakers. You should be able to precipitate three ounces from one liter of gold chloride solution, so use that as a guide in judging how large a vessel must be for any given lot of gold. Larger vessels do no harm, but they are not necessary. 

It's possible to run with a much greater level of concentration, but precipitation is an exothermic reaction, which will lead to problems if you use SO2 (or SMB). In that case, you can get by with a heavily concentrated solution (250 ml that contains as much as 4½ ounces) with the balance of the container filled with ice. When the gold is down, the (now barren) solution will be hot. 

Harold


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## azgard (Nov 11, 2010)

The 1000ml beaker should work then I doubt I'll be doing mor then a half oz of gold unless I find more stuff. Another thing I w as wondering can I do pins and CPUs with using ap or acid clorox. I got about 2 lbs of 1970s pins.


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## nickvc (Nov 11, 2010)

Oz said:


> I know both Chris and Harold have processed rather large quantities on a daily basis. Just how much, I do not know.
> 
> What I do know is that I have not outgrown my 4L beakers in my precipitations (probably never will). You can pack a lot of gold in 4 liters.
> 
> ...


That covers my use of containers neatly most of the work I refined was on assayed bars and I could on some days have as much as 5 kilos to drop so plastic buckets were a godsend but on the individual toll refining it was rare to have large amounts of gold to recover so 4 litre glass beakers were more than adequate, having said that I remember doing 11 kilos of carborundum dust for one customer 8) Happy days....


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## patnor1011 (Nov 11, 2010)

azgard said:


> The 1000ml beaker should work then I doubt I'll be doing mor then a half oz of gold unless I find more stuff. Another thing I w as wondering can I do pins and CPUs with using ap or acid clorox. I got about 2 lbs of 1970s pins.



If you do not have access to Nitric acid or do not want to use it yes you can process them with HCl. Try search Crock pot method. It is basically dissolving base metals on pins with HCl using little heat. What will remain are mostly gold plating. If pins are bigger you can consider constructing cell for reverse electroplating in H2SO4.


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## azgard (Nov 11, 2010)

most of the are are a square shape about 1 inch long and less then 1/8th inch in thickness. right now i dont have a place to setup a crockpot indoors i dont got a well ventilated area. would it work if i put the pins in the AP solution for many days. 
i also got some military compoents that are gold plated on Steel. how do you remove it from the steel.


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## azgard (Nov 11, 2010)

i made up a small batch of the AP in a jar to do some testing i thew in a few pins i cut one up some to let the acid get to the copper and i thew in a piece of a cpu with gold pins. i also put in a 1 inch piece of finger and some gold foil peeled off a board. the foil has dissapeared. if the gold goes into the AP solution does that mean i put in a little too much peroxide.


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## lazersteve (Nov 12, 2010)

Check these threads:

Acid Peroxide Notes

Acid Peroxide Help

Steve


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## azgard (Nov 15, 2010)

my first batch about a 1.5lbs of fingers and some gold covered unpopulated boards. gold is falling off nicely with a lot of flakes floating around after 48 hours. i used 2 qt HCL and 1qt peroxide after 24 hours i thew in one more cup of peroxide. about 50 percent of the gold has fallen off but i see that some boards are virtually untouched. these have a pretty thick coating on before i put them i i could peel off the finger material they are old fingers cut of boards from a medical device. 

my solution went from a dark green to a more brownish. is this normal. the only thing in my solution are the fingers and gold traced boards. a few boards have solder 2 small solder points on them i shaved them off with a blade. 

IM just not sure when i know if my solution is used up and not going to be effective anymore.


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## gold4mike (Nov 15, 2010)

When the solution turns brown you can add an aquarium bubbler to rejuvenate it. H2O2 works but will put some of your gold into solution.


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## azgard (Nov 16, 2010)

i tried a air bubble a aquarium stone. it seems to have worked when i checked today all my pieces were just about stripped bare. but the bubble store was all soft and squishy. the acid attacked that too. and its all full of black and brown muck. i have scraped it down and risned it in water and saved all the particles. how can i check to see if that is gold that stuck to it.. most of its the sand stuff the stone is made of but theres a good amout of black stuff in there.


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## gold4mike (Nov 16, 2010)

You can catch the remnants of the stone when you dissolve your foils in HCl/Chlorine and filter it. I had one of those black stones that did the same thing. I have since bought some green ones that have lasted through 3 batches and a "bubble wall" tube that puts out very small bubbles.


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## azgard (Nov 16, 2010)

i have filtered out my first batch of gold fakes and left with a brown solution. i have more fingers tommrrow. is the solution still good to use again should i add any more acid or peroxide. i have let the bubbler run in it for about 30 hours till this morning.


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## azgard (Nov 17, 2010)

i finished cleaning and filtering my first batch of gold of a bunch of boards and fingers. i got more then i thought i would. i got 4.1g of shiny gold flakes. im going to wait and do the final refining once i get a better work area setup.


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## lazersteve (Nov 20, 2010)

Don't count on the weight of the flakes as the final weight. You will find they contain small bits of debris and other contamination that reports in the filter after the foils are digested during refining. The AP process is a recovery process, not a refining process and it's important to follow through with the refining of the flakes for the highest gold purity.

Steve


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## azgard (Nov 20, 2010)

i just finished another batch i reused my old solution. just added a little more hcl and peroxide to it. this time i got some black stuff in with my flakes mixed in with the water after i washed a few times in HCL then in water. it made the water a dark color almost black. i assume that is gold but is there a way to check it to make sure. my filters were all black too i sprayed them down good then i dipped them back into solution to wash it all off. 

Also when im done with this solution and when i make a fresh batch should i toss in a clean copper buss bar to make sure all gold has been pushed out if any has dissolved.


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## lazersteve (Nov 20, 2010)

azgard said:


> i just finished another batch i reused my old solution. just added a little more hcl and peroxide to it. this time i got some black stuff in with my flakes mixed in with the water after i washed a few times in HCL then in water. it made the water a dark color almost black. i assume that is gold but is there a way to check it to make sure.



Collect some in a test tube, add HCl-Cl and heat a little to dissolve the black powder. Test with stannous to confirm the presence of gold. I have a video of this process on my website you can watch. 



azgard said:


> Also when im done with this solution and when i make a fresh batch should i toss in a clean copper buss bar to make sure all gold has been pushed out if any has dissolved.



I would simply use the batch to dissolve more copper plated scrap, no need to waste your buss bar on the AP if you are going to keep using it for scrap.

Steve


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## azgard (Nov 25, 2010)

i have done a bunch of fingers and working on a stick of unpopulated boards with a bunch of gold squares and circuitry on them. i collected 10grams of cleaned gold flakes so far. i made up a fresh batch of AP and thew in some more today. I still got my old solution its about 3 gallons now very dark brown. over the past couple weeks thew some boards in till they were took them out washed them with spray bottle. i occasionally thew in a cup of acid and peroxide here and there too. 

What im wondering is can this 3 gallons be rejuvinated enough to keep using effectivly or should i get rid of it and start fresh. last time i used it i put in a little more peroxide after 24 hours it did very little to my boards so i made up the fresh batch. i have completly filtered it out so theres no debris in it. i have a airbubbler stone but the acid ate it. what brand stone should i be using in acid like this.


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## butcher (Nov 25, 2010)

Here is something I use, heat end of air hose and sqeeze to seal it closed (or use wood plug) , with sharp razor cut small slits in side of hose, I use a piece of a glass broken bottle top for a weight on end of hose. I too got tired of buying fish tank stones. works for me.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 25, 2010)

AP is very slow method. You will not see much progress in 24 hrs but check back after days. I usually process fingers or green fiber cpus in AP in weeks like. I do not bother much to check after day or two. I simply leave them sit there 2-3 weeks and never had problem to think that my solution is spent or adding cup of this and that inside. When your AP turn very dark just rejuvenate that with air bubler and solution turn green again.
Patience.


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## azgard (Nov 26, 2010)

i noticed that alot of gold is going though my coffee filters. i took a sample out let it settle over night and the bottom of the glass beaker had some gold in it and i saw tons of tiny gold particles suspended in the liquid. i am doing these odd old board pieces that have some gold lettering and bigger gold areas. the gold doesnt fall off in flakes like on fingers it breaks up in little tiny pieces. i filtered the last pile of these and i didnt get very much gold at all i did 5lbs of them and got like 1.5grams. the boards were stripped clean. i beleve alot of its still in there but is so fine its going though the filters. Any one have a better alternative to coffee filters. i have posted a picture of the boards i did below.


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## Harold_V (Nov 27, 2010)

I used Whatman #2's and would recommend them highly. They are not cheap, but they work, and work well. Fact is, you'd likely be better served with Whatman #1's instead of coffee filters. They're not really intended for removal of fine particles. 

I see a coffee filter as not much different from a Shark Skin, which is poorly suited to filtering solution from which you hope to retain fine particulate matter. YMMV.

I used Shark Skin to separate dirt (incinerated polishing wastes from the jeweler's bench) from values recovered by dissolution. The resulting solution would eventually be filtered again, to remove traces of contaminants that were expected to make the trip through the rather open structure of such filters (much the same as a coffee filter, as I said). 

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Nov 27, 2010)

Let the fine paricals settle for a couple of days siphon off the solution and process your gold flakes.


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## Palladium (Nov 27, 2010)

Coffee filters won't get it all. After i let my solution settle over night i siphon off the top layer by running it through a 2 liter coke bottle with the bottom cut out. The neck off the bottle is stuffed with Charmin tissue paper and stops any fine gold that may have not settled yet. Any gold that gets hung in the top of the paper can be washed off. You may get some tissue paper pulp into your gold but this will be removed after you dissolve the gold and filter before you drop it. The plug can then be placed with your other filters for processing later.

When i process with 15 gallon plastic drums i use a lot of air in my process and it blows the gold into almost microscopic pieces that are hard to settle and recover and that is my cheap alternative to recovery. I think it was Steve who came up with the Charmin plug. 8)


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