# First attempt at AR refining failed - please help



## Scrappy's eScrap (Sep 25, 2012)

I recently tried to use the Aqua Regia method to remove the gold from some CPU pins and some PCB fingers (5.2 grams), but I did something wrong. I thought I did enough research on this method but it's obvious now that I dident (so many variations). If someone could tell me what I did wrong and how I can fix this problem I would greatly appreciate it, thanks!

Heres what I did:

Put pins and fingers in a beaker, covered with Aqua Regia, stirred a few times for about an hour and everything seemed fine. I was getting some fumes (no colored fumes but I could smell something) and there was a definite chemical reaction happening, so i let it sit overnight.

Next morning I slowly added some Urea to neutralize the Nitric Acid and poured off the liquid only to another beaker and rinsed the pins 3 times with tap water, pouring the rinsed liquid into the 2nd beaker.
I then added a small amount of Sodium Bisulfite to percipitate the gold and I think this is where I made the mistake. During my research I couldent figure out whether I should use Sodium Bisulfite or Sodium (Meta)bisulfite or what the difference was between the two, so i went with the Sodium Bisulfite ... anyway

I did a Stannous Chloride test and the liquid was clear (no gold in the solution) but I had alot of white powder on the bottom of the beaker which I am assuming was the Urea because I dident use that much Sodium Bisulfite. 

I tried to filter off the liquid, but it was taking forever to go through the filter (maybe 1 drop every 3 seconds or so) and this was just the liquid not the powder at the bottom of the beaker.

So, now I have a beaker with the trash pins/fingers and some other gunk in it, and a beaker with liquid on top and some white powder and gold at the bottom. Since I couldent filter the liquid I just stopped there and decided to get some help. I can see some gold particles on the bottom of the beaker with the liquid in it under the powder, but I dont know what to do next.

Can someone instruct me in how I can finish this process?
Did I use too much Urea?
Do I use Sodium Bisulfite or Sodium Metabisulfite?
What can I do about the filtering issue? I even tried 2 moistened coffee filters but it always seemed to take forever to go through it. The holes in the funnel seem to adaqate enough to let the liquid through, so I'm pretty sure it's the filter that is causing the problem.
Is there a chemical that will remove or disolve the Sodium Bisulfite? because I am sure thats not going to go through the filter and the gold is under that.

Thanks in advance for any help
If you dont mind you can send any responses to my email, which is [email protected] (the o is a letter not a number).

Jim


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## lazersteve (Sep 25, 2012)

Jim,

Please check out the Guided Tour and the post links therein. Using AR directly on most types of scrap is not advisable.

5.2 grams of any escrap will not make enough gold to weigh, let alone see with the naked eye.

Urea has no place in refining. You should be using only the required amount of nitric acid (Guided Tour--Reaction List for details) in your reactions and if you want are a little heavy handed, it is easy to remove excess nitric acid with sulfamic acid or a gold button (search Harold's Post). Search the forum for sulfamic acid for more details on it's use.

Filtering gold solutions after they have been precipitated is not advisable, unless you are using a vacuum setup.

Excess water soluble reagents like urea and sulfite salts are easily removed with a little warm water.

If you are going to use coffee filters with gravity filtration for clarifying your solutions *before precipitation*, use three to five filters and a colander, not a traditional conical funnel.

Recovery and refining of gold from scrap is not a cake recipe. You do not simply add all of the ingredients over a given period of time. Each step must be completed before proceeding to the next. Steps are not time dependent.

Set your solutions to the side and do some reading to learn what to look for in each stage of the reaction and how to test for the presence of precious metals. While you are reading collect high grade scrap and sort it by type. You'll need several pounds of *one type* of sorted e-scrap to make a BB that is worth the chemicals and effort to recover. This helps eliminate problems due to cross contamination from different scrap types. It's easier to solve low order problems (eg: ones with fewer variables) than higher order ones in most cases. Learn how each type of scrap behaves to the various acid reagents on small samples and combine like types. Learn how to make reliable stannous chloride tests.

Welcome to the forum,

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 25, 2012)

I hate most polls. If you had difficulty finding good information on Precious Metal Recovery Techniques, its 100% your own fault. I know its overwhelming but its all here. All you have to do is search for it. Some people read for a year before trying to tackle it.


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## jimdoc (Sep 25, 2012)

Posting a poll should only be for the moderators in my opinion.

Jim


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## Drowningbodacius (Sep 25, 2012)

im not a expert by any means and i have never put any of this into practice yet but it sounds to me like your main mistake was not getting rid of your base metals out of your pins and fingers before you used the AR method. this should only be done with cleaned gold. check out lazersteves website (goldrecovery.us) and also check out sams website (goldnscrap.com) ive found both those sites very very informative on the processes used to recover escrap


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## Scrappy's eScrap (Sep 25, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> I hate most polls. If you had difficulty finding good information on Precious Metal Recovery Techniques, its 100% your own fault. I know its overwhelming but its all here. All you have to do is search for it. Some people read for a year before trying to tackle it.



I appoligize for insulting your intelligence with a poll and asking for more help but I thought that was why I was here in the first place. I am new to this and dont think that criticism is a good motivator, but anyway if it takes a year of reading to get the information I need from this board I'm not sure I want to waste my time here, just sayin'. I will take the advice that Steve offered but please dont treat me like an idiot when I am trying to learn something you are offering to teach me. Not very logical!
Thanks!


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 25, 2012)

Scrappy's eScrap said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > I hate most polls. If you had difficulty finding good information on Precious Metal Recovery Techniques, its 100% your own fault. I know its overwhelming but its all here. All you have to do is search for it. Some people read for a year before trying to tackle it.
> ...



I don't mind your questions but your dumb-ass poll is what pissed me off. To me, it was stupid and insulting. Please note that there are 6 no votes and zero yes votes, at this point. I know you're totally ignorant of this fact but, before this forum started, a little over 5 years ago, *ALL* of this knowledge was secret and non-published. You are privileged to participate in this wonderful forum. If you don't like it, leave.


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## Scrappy's eScrap (Sep 25, 2012)

The *"Dumb-Ass Poll"* pissed you off huh? I think your an ignorant bastard considering how you talk to complete strangers and I will report your violation of the forum rules because as I'm sure you know profanity is not allowed! Ya know this forum is NOT the only game in town and I would like to take advantage of it, but I WILL NOT be treated like that. I am offended by your posts and you ignorant attitude! Let's see what Noxx thinks about it. I came to you as a stranger asking for advice and you insulted me and treated me like an idiot. Real nice!


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## jimdoc (Sep 25, 2012)

Scrappy's eScrap said:


> The *"Dumb-Ass Poll"* pissed you off huh? I think your an ignorant bastard considering how you talk to complete strangers and I will report your violation of the forum rules because as I'm sure you know profanity is not allowed! Ya know this forum is NOT the only game in town and I would like to take advantage of it, but I WILL NOT be treated like that. I am offended by your posts and you ignorant attitude! Let's see what Noxx thinks about it. I came to you as a stranger asking for advice and you insulted me and treated me like an idiot. Real nice!



Bye Scrappy. If one of the two of you must go, it will be you.

Jim


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## Scrappy's eScrap (Sep 25, 2012)

Bye! Gold Refining Forum
Please delete all information related to me and my account.
Life's to short to argue with ignorant people


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## butcher (Sep 25, 2012)

Scrappy's eScrap,

A year to learn this would be a very fast learner, I do not think you would ever finish learning as long as you stayed on the forum and kept your mind active, this is a science, like Steve said not a cake recipe.

Nobody here treats anyone like an idiot, but they do say things like they are, if you cannot stand up to a little constructive criticism you will not like it here, if someone does not know what they are doing we tell them so, if they can handle that then they can grow, as then they know they do not know and can then learn, the information is provided for anyone who wish's to learn, and when they study if they run into a problem assistance is offered, but no one can hold your hand step by step as there is too much involved, too much information to absorb, and even if they could you would have trouble understanding all of the information involved, you are lucky to find this place, where very valuable secrets of this science has been revealed, and where true science and not false information is revealed, many here have spent countless hours and time to learn what they have, and are willing to help, and also very willing to help someone who comes here without a clue about what they are trying to do, who read a page about aqua regia and think they are smart enough to refine metals (not knowing they really do not know anything about it, have no clue about the enormous amount of science behind this field of work), and if they get upset when a member who tries to help them understand they do not have a clue, they may never get the chance to learn, biting the hand that is trying to help them learn.


Scrappy's eScrap, nobody thinks you are an idiot, but do not act like one (snapping at those here to help), accept the fact you do not know, say thank you when someone tells you your going the wrong way and you have no clue, but point you in the right direction, yes you will need to study and study a lot, and this science is not something you will learn overnight, but after several years of hard work, you will realize how much more you still need to learn, but you will also find all of that hard work learning is well worth the effort.

Drop the attitude and pick up Hoke's book, and welcome to the forum.

Attitudes, or people with them, do not last around here long.


P.S. I also found the poll very silly, as with the amount of information freely provided here on the forum, and with all of the help from these knowledgable and friendly members only an idiot would not learn here on this forum.


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## butcher (Sep 25, 2012)

I guess some think they are too smart to learn.
We do not need those kind of smarts ssses around here.
bye bye Scrappy's eScrap.


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## jimdoc (Sep 25, 2012)

It seems that most new members that show up and post a poll, don't seem to last that long.

Jim


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 26, 2012)

I apologize to all for my language. I might mention that this forum *IS* the only game in town


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## its-all-a-lie (Sep 26, 2012)

Uh-Oh, he is gonna tell Noxx on you GSP :shock:


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## Geo (Sep 26, 2012)

almost all new members have to go through a trial by fire here. if you are too thin skinned, its easy to let your emotions win over the better part of common sense. i remember having my trials and tribulations and i still stick my foot in my mouth sometimes. i welcome any remarks people make to my post, even the negative ones. thats where i do most of my learning. i guess what im trying to say is "if you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".


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## nickvc (Sep 26, 2012)

I think half the problem is that people with no real knowledge of refining or recovery of precious metals think it is easy, which if you know what your doing it usually is, and expect a quick easy to follow list to take them from e scrap to ounces of fine gold in hours. Well the list is here and only here but it's not short and without proper knowledge mishaps and problems become all consuming disasters which we all see far too often.
I too dislike polls and this particular one was laughable considering exactly what it was asking and where it was posted because all the information is openly and freely available, you just have to put in some effort and time to do the reading. Chris and the other moderators and many off the senior members have put in many years in the lab to reach the point they are now at where few if any processes are beyond their abilities but newbies expect that level of ability in hours, sorry it's never going to happen but the help to reach there is all here.
I particulary dislike any calling out or attitude especially to the moderators who in my opinion do an excellent job, the same applies to most members who bother to post, they all do it to help and I find it very irritating when their replies are ignored or disparaged because it doent fit in with the hopes or beliefs of the original poster.
Simple rule... Don't post questions if your not going to read or accept the answers given :twisted:


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## rewalston (Sep 26, 2012)

I joined the forum in December of 2008 and I have yet to put anything into acid. I'm still reading and collecting materials. I have learned a lot on this forum, but only by reading, no handouts. For anyone to come in to this wonderful place and expect to be walked hand in hand through the whole process of recovery and refining without spending numerous hours reading and searching the forum (whether they use the "Search" button or Lasersteve's custom search) it ain't going to happen. I still am tripping over a few things and probably will again once I start processing, but I expect that. It never ceases to amaze me that people watch things on youtube and try to follow it and do what they "think" is being done only to screw it up. Then they come into the forum and try to get help without doing their due diligence of searching the forum and reading Hoke's book. 9 times out of 10, if the read the book and searched the forum they would find out rather quickly where they committed their booboo. Mind you the "rather quickly" may take days or weeks to find, but they will find it.

Rusty


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## lazersteve (Sep 26, 2012)

In general it seems like society has become so accustomed to having information immediately at their fingertips via YouTube and the internet that they forget the real fact that you must acquire the skills to perform what you are seeing as well as understand the reasons why the reactions occur, before you can do these reactions. They don't want to do all the run of the mill leg work, they simply want the final results, and they want them now.

I'm reminded of the scene in the movie 'The Matrix' where Trinity is walking up to the helicopter and calls in a request to Hank, the operator, for instructions on how to fly a military helicopter as she is walking towards the aircraft. By the time she is at the cockpit, Hank has transmitted the software to her brain making her an expert helicopter pilot in the space of a few seconds. 

We have become a drive by society. Make a call, post a website, download a file, read an article, or watch a video, and you are now an instant expert. These things do not always translate to instant success as many people have very short attention spans, even shorter amounts of patience, and no tolerance for following through when something goes wrong. They watch a 5 minute video and think... it only takes five minutes... Great! 

Steve


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## drtyTshrt (Sep 26, 2012)

I watched a youtube video and saw the guy get to the AU powder then fail to get it to melt. He then begged for someone to tell him where he went wrong. I found this site by compete accident even after numerous Google searches. I know forum protocol about asking questions before using the search function. I would never display the attitude of the OP here or on any forum. I knew the info contained herein is not readily available so I feel privileged to even be able to read and learn from someone willing to share their secrets. I will buy the Hoke book and have been to lasersteves store and will pick up some DVDs, but for now the info here should keep me busy until I have enough material to make it worth my while. Maybe even make a friend or two.


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## gold4mike (Sep 26, 2012)

We are living in the age of entitlement. This guy is an example of the result.


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## lazersteve (Sep 26, 2012)

It seems like the instant hard work and long term commitment get involved, the real winners step up and show their true colors while the arm chair experts fade into the background noise.

Steve


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## xodiax (Sep 26, 2012)

All I can say at this point, is that is a good thing we don't live in China, where the information is very hard to get on the inter-net. I'll bet though, that Real artisans would be more willing to apprentice someone who is new to this art, by inter-net or not. Knowledge IS power, if you share your knowledge it can only make you stronger. 

I believe that when I refer someone to "keep reading", I would at least point them in the right direction, rather than "drop-kick" them so as not to interfere with my ever-valuable time and energy. "I've got more important things to do, like run a forum". I heard that, in one form or another. 

We are not baking cakes, but make mistakes just the same. 

"Don't play with those matches, until you know how to use them" I'll either get burned, or someone will show me How to be careful.

It is way to easy to forget where it is that we came from, the mistakes we made, and the costs we incurred. Someone who considers themselves a "teacher" can teach from experience while guiding the student from making the same mistakes of the (our) past.
My two pesos.

How about a poll?


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## lazersteve (Sep 26, 2012)

Xodiax,

If you read my first reply you'll see I pointed him to the reading that would help and then I added more information as to which processes will work best and which ones he should avoid. Within the Guided Tour are links on how to search the forum, which chemicals correspond to each name and their use, a semi-autonomous post that consolidates common search subjects into one post, a copy of Hokes book, the forum rules, and much much more. There is even a great thread on Safety in the Guided Tour. I even went as far as to guide him as to how much scrap to obtain so he will achieve measurable results. 

Where do you see that anyone 'drop kicked' him because they were too busy to reply? 

I feel he fell off of the wagon when he heard what Chris (GSP) thought about his poll. If you spend an hour or two looking through the forum main topics anyone can quickly see there is plenty of good refining information right here on the forum, for this simple reason his poll really makes about as much sense as "Is the sky blue?", since the obvious answer to his poll is no, hence there is no real reason to ask the question. I think that is the point GSP was trying to make, but maybe I'm wrong.


Steve


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## jimdoc (Sep 26, 2012)

How about a poll on banning polls?
Or at least have them require moderator approval before being posted.

Jim


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## NobleMetalWorks (Sep 26, 2012)

xodiax said:


> All I can say at this point, is that is a good thing we don't live in China, where the information is very hard to get on the inter-net. I'll bet though, that Real artisans would be more willing to apprentice someone who is new to this art, by inter-net or not. Knowledge IS power, if you share your knowledge it can only make you stronger.



I think you are not taking into consideration that "Real" artisans spend so much time perfecting their craft, that when they do take time out to answer a few questions on this board, they want to be precise in the information given, concise, to the point and don't have a lot of time to spend the hours upon hours required to teach someone the proper terminology, so that they then can effectively communicate how to process their material. In other words, if you have not read C. M. Hoke, or some other material that gives you a good understanding of what we are doing, then trying to help you will be near impossible.



> I believe that when I refer someone to "keep reading", I would at least point them in the right direction, rather than "drop-kick" them so as not to interfere with my ever-valuable time and energy. "I've got more important things to do, like run a forum". I heard that, in one form or another.


 
I don't think new people realize how much this information on this forum is really worth. Lets try to put things into perspective. Most of the information you can search and read on this forum is information that is published nowhere else. I have spoken with 3 people who consult in this industry, teach and train people in person how to do this type of work. They all charge $1,000 per day to do this. There are very good reasons why they can command these fees, and I am sure you can figure out the why all on your own. So consider any help you might get by searching, and reading this forum as being very valuable information. Consider any help people are willing to give you, directly, even more expensive.



> We are not baking cakes, but make mistakes just the same.



Making mistakes doing this type of work, cannot compare with cakes. If you put too much flour in a cake, you can easily fix it. If you make a mistake doing this type of work, it could cause you serious health problems or even death. This is not a game, this isn't changing oil in your car, this isn't a craft project you can just jump into with some paper and a little elmers glue and make money doing.



> "Don't play with those matches, until you know how to use them" I'll either get burned, or someone will show me How to be careful.



Or maybe you will watch and learn, or even better yet, maybe you will READ, everyone that comes to this forum can read and write, so maybe you will read this forum, or books, and learn before you attempt anything, read and learn so you know what questions to ask. But when you don't read, and ask questions that are easily solved by putting forth a little effort and reading it irritates people because many of the people on this forum are self taught and did so by, guess what, reading.



> It is way to easy to forget where it is that we came from, the mistakes we made, and the costs we incurred. Someone who considers themselves a "teacher" can teach from experience while guiding the student from making the same mistakes of the (our) past.
> My two pesos.



It's easier for the student to be taught by a teacher. It benefits the student, sure. But what you are really asking is for someone to give away their valuable time to hold someone's hand. Or another way to look at it would be like this, the teacher spends money (because they are not processing and their time is valuable) to teach the student, the student has all the benefit and incurs none of the cost. How is this exchange even fair. Now consider how many people are willing to give of their valuable time, freely, without any implied compensation at all. That is being exceedingly generous. They are giving money away in the form of information, experience, and teaching. Handing it out to complete and total strangers without any expectations of payment, or other compensation. Truly, I think many new people to this forum have no clue the gold mind


> Corrected, I actually meant mine, but I like the way it sounds with "mind" better


 they have stumbled across.

We are dealing with metals, with fire, with heat, with acids that can damage and kill, with processes that are complex and sensitive, with chemistry that is considered advanced. We are not making delicate silk flowers. We work physically, and intellectually with little time left over to consider a grown adults emotional complexities, if you want advice then accept it when it's given and say thank you. If you were starving and someone threw you a loaf of bread, would you then complain that it wasn't handed to you, on a plate, with butter and knife to spread it with and by the way where is your napkin? No, you would thank them. Information is food for the mind. If you post on this forum you have to expect the people here are going to treat you like an adult that has enough maturity to be able to handle criticism. If you cannot handle criticism, or you believe just because this forum exists you are entitled to your questions being answered right away, then you might want to re-think attempting this. This is really the only place you can interact with people who do this professionally, and is the only internet archive of this type of information, anywhere. I think the one thing that irritates me more than just about anything else, is when I see someone new demand answers as if they are entitled, the sense of entitlement that some new members seem to possess, goes far beyond what could be considered offensive. 

My own two cents...

Scott


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## its-all-a-lie (Sep 26, 2012)

SBrown said:


> Truly, I think many new people to this forum have no clue the gold mind they have stumbled across.



This forum is truly a "gold mind", it is the mind of all the refiners who are members here. I personally appreciate all the information that has been posted here for everyone to use for free, without it i would not have a clue about any of these processes and im sure i am not the only one who can say this.


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## Geo (Sep 26, 2012)

i have to laugh. :lol: there are two individuals here that has had difficulty in finding good information on precious metal recovery techniques. please dont be afraid to speak up. i swear no one will deride you or make bad commentary. if you are having difficulties in finding good information about precious metal recovery here, i can point you to some good information. hey, heres some right here. i found this just laying on the floor. http://tinyurl.com/mfnyhs how about pick it up and brush it off and sit down with a hot cup of coffee (or a cold beer) and have a good read.


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## Golddigger Greg (Sep 26, 2012)

Funny, I too found a copy of that laying around my first day here; what are the odds? :mrgreen:


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## butcher (Sep 27, 2012)

xodiax,
Welcome to the forum, and the best place (probably the only place) to learn an art of precious metal recovery and refining, kept secret from man since man since the beginning of history, I think you will find this forum very friendly and helpful, but you will also find we do not put up with any Bull malarky or other nonsense.

This forum is willing to help any new member learn a craft kept secret from mankind, many of the members have spent lifetime learning, and are very willing to help anyone, the combined members have stored a database of information on the forum that most colleges would not have on a subject.

Anyone coming to this forum that truly wishes to learn this subject will, and they also would be very grateful for all of the help the members of the forum provide.Anyone coming here with a prideful attitude, give it to me for free I am entitled attitude, argumentative attitude, how can we scam you attitude, Etcetera will not last long.

Members here spend countless hours helping others, they do not have to, they are also very patient with new members, and do guide them to get them started, no they do not hand them a new brain filled with information of this subject on a silver platter, but they do provide a silver platter of information for free.

This guy was booted because he was a troublemaker, he really did not want to learn, and he insulted the forum and its members.

I would have helped the man if he really wanted to learn, but when he spoke the way he did to GSP, He showed he was not here to learn, he was here to get a free ride, and cause trouble while doing it, if things did not go his way, the forum does not need to waste its resources on those not willing to learn or study, 

This guy also insulted the whole forum when he spoke to GSP in the manner he did,GSP who is one of the members who has spent countless hours helping others, given information he acquired in a lifetime of hard work and study, spends time as moderator to help keep the forum running smoothly, and would have helped this guy if he truly was wanted to learn.


When members join this forum they are joining a community of people willing to help others, this community spends a lot of time trying to help other members, and we probably spend more time tying to help new members get started, this is done in a friendly manner, the information is provided, heck they have thousands of pages of information provided, all of their questions are answered many times over and over again.

Members do not look down on another, or a new member because they do not know something yet about this craft, but they will also point out the fact that your going the wrong way, and may endanger yourself or others, they are quick to correct false information, they will tell you if you have ideas that are totally wrong for you to have the ability to recover or refine metals, or are doing something that can harm you or others, this is not done in malice, it is done to help the person see they are on the wrong path, and to steer them back to a path of common sense where they can learn this craft safely.

xodiax, 
I hope you enjoy being a member of this community of people helping others, also I think you should reserve judgment about this until you spend a little time here on this forum and see the whole picture.


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## RGJohn (Oct 2, 2012)

Scrappy's eScrap said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > I hate most polls. If you had difficulty finding good information on Precious Metal Recovery Techniques, its 100% your own fault. I know its overwhelming but its all here. All you have to do is search for it. Some people read for a year before trying to tackle it.
> ...


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