# My latest gold



## kjavanb123 (Feb 21, 2016)

This is 15.6g assayed 980 from 18kg RAMs and 13kg mix of 2.5kg mobile phone boards mixed with perpherial boards.



This is back of it


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## Platdigger (Feb 21, 2016)

Nice. How much silver and pd from that mix?
Or, is it still yet to be determined?


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 21, 2016)

Hi Plat,

Forgot to add that. Got 9g of Pd black powder, that I have not purified yet. Silver is unknown as it gets accumlated during the smelt process.

Pd black recovered from 18kg of mid RAMs,



Regards,
Kj


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## alexxx (Feb 21, 2016)

Hey KJ,

Want to post again a step by step walktrough to enlighten us new to the art of smelting.
I have around 600 kg of old ddr1 & server ram to process.
Would love to see this lot turned into a small brick & some pd.

Have you figured your costs per kg ?

Cheers,

Alex


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 21, 2016)

Hi Alex,

First I like to clearify some numbers, I recovered 9.5g of gold powder from smelting that 18kg RAMs, then re-melted slags and litharge from the first smelt and recovered only 0.7g of gold powder, which assured me we got most of the gold in those RAMs on the first smelt.

Based on that 10.2g of gold powder from smelting 18kg RAMs, and losses that have accured during melting that powder, to be around 10g of gold per 18kg of RAMs that yield is 0.55g of gold per kg of RAM.

I will wait until I purify and melt the palladium black powder before making any numbers on that. 

Now that is cleared, 600kg of RAMs should give you 10.7 toz of gold on the low side, but it needs my furnace to give you that  currently I am toll refining for scrappers which is very good business, would love to do those RAMs of yours.

Per costs of operation here is the break down, costs of 20 liters of nitric acid here in local chemical shop is $0.50 per liter, since I always mix it with water to make it weaker nitric acid, the acid costs is around $0.25 per liter.

For my 18kg I used about 20kg of lead as the collector, here it costs $1.4 per kg, silver and lithrage since I use the ones from previous smelts is free. But if you are just starting your materials then you would need 400g of silver and 50kg of lithrage to smelt 600kg.
I forgot gasoline, which is dirt cheap here I feel embarssed to even put its price here 

After pyrolysis the RAM completed, thank you by the way since I have used your photos to build a similar pyro unit, operator removes them and most complnents just fall off the boards to the bottom of pyro reactor, so we only dissolve the bare boards with gold or silver plated fingere in weak nitric acid. 

The acid usage in this stage is around 10 liters for my 18kg.

For smelt, operator warm up the furnace, add the lead ingot, plus any litharge from the previous smelt, sometimes I see he adds chunks of charcoals as well at this stage.

He then prepare the materials to be smelted by mixing them with soda ash and borax, never measured the amount for 18kg, maybe 3-4 shovel full soda ash and half of that in borax, adds little water to the mix to make them stick together, also sometimes he adds chunks of lead oxide to this mix.

Once all the lead and lithrage inside furnace is molten, he adds those prepared materials one shovel at the time till furnace is almost full. This may require addition of more soda ash.

The material is molten, all the non-metals report to slag which forms a layer on top of motlen lead, and is removed by the operator by tilting the furnace a little, and poured off.

The above step is repeated until all materials are gone and melted and slag is removed. At this stage lithrage along with any base metals in it is oxidzed by periodicaly cutting off the fuel and just let the blower blow on molten mass. This is when toxic fumes of lead oxide is formed and filtered, at this stage a layer of dark oxidezed base metals form on top of the molten lead and is again removed and saved as lithrage.

That step is continued until the amount of molten lead is half of what was it at the beginning of oxidzing step. At this point silver or in my case silver chloride mixed with soda ash is added and allowed to alloy with precious metals collected by lead.

Next and final step is to oxdize the remaining lead, using the same thung cutting off fuel leaving the blower on and remove any produced slags.

Once all lead and base metals is gone you notice at oxidzing stage no more fumes come out, furnace is turned off and remaining silver alloy is allowed to cool and solidfied.

From this point on, silver alloy is dissolved in nitric acid, any palladium, platinum and silver from materials will dissolve, and gold powder remains.

Hope that helped,
Best regards


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## Anonymous (Feb 22, 2016)

Great work and thanks for the post Kevin.

I do have to throw in a suggestion though and I would hope that you would look at this in the light in which is is intended. Your ram gold yields are light. 0.55g/Kg is too low for mixed gold edged memory. It should be in the region of 0.85g per Kg or up to 1.1g per Kg overall for the "better stuff."

Whether that is due to processing inefficiencies or the sample batch I am not sure however there does appear to be some discrepancy there that you may wish to take a look at.

Jon


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## MarcoP (Feb 22, 2016)

Hi KJ,

in your post paragraph you say "From this point on, silver alloy is dissolved in nitric acid, any palladium, platinum and silver from materials will dissolve, and gold powder remains."

But shouldn't any platinum remain with the gold?

Marco


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 22, 2016)

Spaceship,

Thanks for the comments and yes that seemed low, but since re-melted slags and everything else, and only got 0.7 purfied gold powder, I do not think furnace had any gold losses. I am expecting another 30kg of RAM next week.

Marco,
According to Hoke book, once platinum percentage in silver PGM alloy is lower than 25% or something like that, most of platinum dissolves in nitric, but that is true pure platinum is not effected by nitric at all.

Regards
Kj


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## kurtak (Feb 23, 2016)

kjavanb123 said:


> Based on that 10.2g of gold powder from smelting 18kg RAMs, and losses that have accured during melting that powder, to be around 10g of gold per 18kg of RAMs that yield is 0.55g of gold per kg of RAM.



With a recovery of only 10g of gold from 18kg of RAM something does not add up here

Dynamic - my local board buyer is currently paying $14.15 per pound - that is based on the price list I received yesterday with gold at $1224.00 ozt & copper at $2.07 (the copper is insignificant) so ---

at the per pound price of RAM at $14.15 that puts a per kg price at $31.13

18kg X $31.13 = $560.34 selling the RAM out right to a board buyer like Dynamic

based on gold @ $1224.00 ozt = $39.35 per gram

If 18kg Ram only nets 10g gold X $39.35 = $393.50

$560.34 - $393.50 = $166.84 less money made by processing the RAM rather then selling it out right to a board buyer

I don't think the copper/silver/Pd is going to make up the $166.84 difference in selling out right much let alone cover the cost of processing

Keep in mind that besides paying $14.15/lb for the RAM Dynamic has a cost in shipping it to the processor plus paying the processor for processing & other over head (employees, "their" handling facility etc.) so their real cost per lb of RAM is greater then the $14.15/lb they pay to buy it before factoring in any profit --- & just as a note - Dynamic is shipping their boards to a processing company in Japan & I am sure that makes for a high shipping cost to the processor

One more note - if you have 500 lbs or more of RAM Dynamic will pay $14.50/lb - so a premium of another $0.35/lb (at there current pricing)

So - ether Dynamic is "losing" money when they buy RAM (let alone making any profit) --- or you are not even getting close to all the gold from your processing it - because your not even close to what you could sell it out right for --- I mean $166.84 loss on only 18kg (39.6 lbs) is a big loss --- that would be HUGE on 600kg 

Kurt


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 23, 2016)

Kurt,

First, average trading prices locally for mixed RAMs (gold, silver, tin) plated is $4 per lbs, and based on what we recovered, it would be $9.7 per lbs of gold and some palladium which I will refine and melt tommorow.

Secondly, we re-melted the slag and lithrage we got while smelting the RAMs, and only recovered 0.7g so to me it means whatever gold was in it we could squeeze out. 

In my smeling furnace, gold can report only very few places, in small beads that might stuck in slags, in litharge, or if incinerated might be blown out, but we use pyrolysis so everything is in a closed reactor.

The only guess I have which may or may not be true is the RAMs manufactored for Middle East might have less PMs compare to their counter parts in EU or the US. Just like Chinese and non-Chinese motherboards have different yields.

I will have some data soon next week as I am expecting ro recieve a larger lot of RAMs.

Regards
Kj


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## electrocycle44 (Feb 23, 2016)

That's a great price for memory, do you have someone you would recommend talking to there? 



kurtak said:


> kjavanb123 said:
> 
> 
> > Based on that 10.2g of gold powder from smelting 18kg RAMs, and losses that have accured during melting that powder, to be around 10g of gold per 18kg of RAMs that yield is 0.55g of gold per kg of RAM.
> ...


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## alexxx (Feb 23, 2016)

dont forget something very important, dynamic will sort for reusable as well...

1 stick of untested ddr2 2G (wich is not uncommon at all) will still sell for 7 to 10$ (bulk / retail)

copper also needs to be accounted when you deal with large volumes. Running anywhere between 18 to 22% it still represents an average of 440 lbs per MT, almost $1000 more per MT

Has anyone on the forum been able to get 20$ net per Lb on processing ram ? Otherwise its not worth it to even look at it, flip...


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## kurtak (Feb 24, 2016)

electrocycle44 said:


> That's a great price for memory, do you have someone you would recommend talking to there?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



electrocycle44

Here is there web site http://dynamicrecycling.com/

You want to talk to Anna Lamm

They don't post prices on their web site but you can request to receive regular price updates by email

They have some of the highest prices for boards I have seen anywhere - however you have to meet "minimums" in order to get paid the listed price - if you don't deliver the minimum they then only pay between 70 - 80 % of the listed price depending on type/grade &/or amount of material under the minimum

Example - if you deliver a load of general E-scrap mixed (but "sorted") like mother boards, server/telecom, finger cards, RAM, HD boards, CPUs, wire, heat sinks, brown boards etc. etc. the load needs to be at least 2,000 pounds

Higher grade stuff like CPUs, RAM, HD boards they have "smaller' minimums on but still a minimum to get the top listed price --- & on some of the high grade stuff they will pay a added premium if you have "over" a certain amount - such a $0.35 premium over the listed price if you have 500 lbs or more RAM 

They also pay a premium on re-use/resale stuff like flat panel monitors, lap tops, Ram, etc. - but again you need to meet minimums in delivery --- Example - 2 - 16 GB RAM is priced anywhere from $2.60 - $32.50 "per stick" --- but you need to deliver a minimum of 200 sticks (mixed 2 - 16 GB)

Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 24, 2016)

alexxx said:


> dont forget something very important, dynamic will sort for reusable as well...



That's not quite true - you have to do the sort & send them the 2GB & higher RAM (re-use/resale) packaged separate because it goes through a different department & it needs to be clearly marked as a "resale" product - if being shipped along with scrap product

Also - they have two different turn around times for making payment from the time they receive the load - 2 weeks for scrap - & 4 weeks for resale --- so if you send a load that is both scrap & resale you have to wait the full 4 weeks to get paid on both the scrap & resale --- so if you have both (& meet the minimums on both) you may be better off send as two separate loads unless you don't mind waiting the 4 weeks to be paid on the scrap



> copper also needs to be accounted when you deal with large volumes. Running anywhere between 18 to 22% it still represents an average of 440 lbs per MT, almost $1000 more per MT



Correct - IF - you are sending out to a company that does the processing & pays out on both the PMs & copper - Dynamic is not a processor - they are a buyer & send out to a processor (in Japan) they buy boards based on gold with copper factored in --- my point to Kevin was that based on his gold recovery he is falling short of the RAM value selling it out right - & even if he factored in the Ag, Pd & copper he is still falling short of making a profit - or at best he "may" brake even (more to be said about this in a reply I will make to Kevin)

Kurt


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## alexxx (Feb 24, 2016)

kurtak said:


> alexxx said:
> 
> 
> > dont forget something very important, dynamic will sort for reusable as well...
> ...



What I mean is that they will still sort your scrap for reusable even if you ship 2 separate lots (scrap & reusable).


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## kurtak (Feb 24, 2016)

kjavanb123 said:


> Kurt,
> 
> First, average trading prices locally for mixed RAMs (gold, silver, tin) plated is $4 per lbs, and based on what we recovered, it would be $9.7 per lbs of gold and some palladium which I will refine and melt tommorow.



Kevin

First let me say that I am not trying to pick on you &/or put you down - I am simply pointing out that from what I can see you are not getting the full value out (in this particular case of RAM) in other words - yes - you may be getting more value then what your "local" market will pay for the RAM as RAM --- but that does not mean you are getting the full value

To determine if you are getting at least close to the value in a product (in this case RAM) out of the product - you need to look beyond your local market & at other markets to see what "the market" will bear on that particular product --- you have to shop around for pricing to see what the top price is being paid "on the value" (find the highest bidder so to speak) & then factor in that the buyer has expenses on top of there purchasing price - after which they need to see "their" profit

Example - there is one "local" scrap yard here that pays higher then any other for circuit boards - they have 3 grades they buy on - brown boards @ $0.10/lb - low grade green boards @ $0.60/lb - high grade green boards @ $1.50/lb --- if I took them RAM they would only pay me $1.50/lb because it falls in their high grade category --- so I have to shop around & in doing so I find board buyers (not the same as scrap yards) that pay anywhere from $9.00 - $14.00/lb

This tells me that based on the value found in RAM it is more then $14.00 per lb because the high bidder "in the market" is willing to pay me $14.00/lb & they have other expenses on top of that (handling cost, shipping cost, processing fees) & then their profit 

So this is what we know - if you are not getting something "over" $14.00 out of processing RAM (we are talking gold finger RAM only) your are falling short of all the value in it because $14 is what the market will bear (to the highest bidder) for RAM (as a raw product) & on top of that you have to factor (add) their cost & profit realized in their payment from the processor

I think Alex is very close when he says if you are not seeing a recovery of right around $20/lb (+ or - a bit) from processing RAM you are falling short of FULL recovery --- in which case you need to take a closer look at your process to try to figure out where you are loosing value

If you are running your RAM as mixed RAM you are running blind because you have no idea how much of it is silver/tin & how much is gold - you need to run gold as gold & silver/tin as silver/tin & as well RAMBUS as RAMBUS

Here is what the market will bear on the 3 types of RAM (based on dynamic pricing - the highest I am aware of)

Gold RAM = $14.50 (the higher "premium" price if you deliver 500 lbs or more) --- so you need to see recovery "over" $14.50/lb from processing gold "only" RAM

Silver/tin RAM = $6.70 --- so you need to see "over" that from processing

RAMBUS = $7.30 --- so you need to see "over" that from prom processing

Pease understand Kevin that my only purpose in posting this is to let you know that I believe you are NOT getting the FULL value out of your processing here & that there for you need to take a closer look at where, when & how you are loosing values - if you don't have markets where you can sell out right on the high end of the buying market - you should at least be looking at problems that are causing losses in recovery below the value of what the market will bear for out right purchase of boards - simply getting more then what you can get from your local market is not good enough in this case - your loosing near if not 50% or more 

Kurt


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 24, 2016)

Something I am noticing in these discussion is the fact that the discussions center around the value of processing the chips off the different pieces of RAM. What is not being discussed and added into the discussion of the recoveries is the gold and or copper from the fiberglass part of the RAM and the recovery of silver and Pd from the MLCC's and other components on the RAM pieces.


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## kurtak (Feb 24, 2016)

Frank 

I believe Kevin is taking about "whole" RAM here - maybe I am wrong - but he said this was a batch of 18kg RAM --- not RAM chips

that's why my posting has been based on the price of RAM (bought as RAM) compared to what Keven recovered "from RAM"

Kurt


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 24, 2016)

kurtak said:


> Frank
> 
> I believe Kevin is taking about "whole" RAM here - maybe I am wrong - but he said this was a batch of 18kg RAM --- not RAM chips
> 
> ...



That may be a fact that his post is relevant to whole RAM. If it is he is definatly loosing money some where in his processing. I'm sure he will shed some light on this, or at least he should.


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 24, 2016)

Kurtak,

Thanks for your post. I have been busy with some modifications in my shop, but I see your points, and next week when I get another 20kg batch of mixed RAMs, I could group them in gold plated, silver or tin plated, pyrolyze them, dissolve copper in nitric, then filter off the solution and smelt the residue of filter. This time I am going to weigh the silver prior to smelt then weigh it again after process completed to find the silver content.

I still can not see how smelting operation the way we have been doing it for a while would lose gold, despite the fact we ran the slags from previous smelt.

Regards
Kj


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## richard2013 (Apr 4, 2016)

Hello KJ,

Any update on the suspected loss of gold.


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