# Flux



## sayf (Feb 7, 2021)

Hello guys , after i burned the plastic shells to get the gold plated pins out, i cleaned the pins and got about 5 kilo grams of them, am planning to smelt them now, so i read some where that i can simply smelt the gold plated pins and add some chemichals(flux) to the pins before smelting them, such chemicals will force the non precious metals to float and the gold will settle down alone as follows :
Mixing the pins with 
40% of their weight borax
16% of their weight soda ash
10% of their weight silica

After smelting , the pins will be poured in an inverted iron pyramid, the gold will settle down to the inverted top and other metals will float. 
The pins of course may contain all the following metals :
Nickel, tin, iron, copper, gold, lead
So will this way work guys or i need another flux? 
Thank you


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## Martijn (Feb 8, 2021)

Sayf, you've made a bunch of assumptions that show you should not be attempting recovering, and need to go study as said many times before by me and other members. You just don't seem to learn. Did you know seawater contains gold? But you need to cut off your left foot for it to get visible.. 

Our most respected members gave you a ton of information in long texts trying to explain to you it's not as easy as you think, but I get the feeling you only read the quick fix and not the basic info on which this all is founded. This is very disrespectful. 
And before you try something, *ASK FIRST*. It saves on cleaning up a lot of messes and pollution. 

Most molten metals don't magically separate into layers, they alloy. Like 14K gold also has silver and copper and maybe other things in it. Like Brass is copper and zinc. It will not separate into layers. It will form an alloy. 
Flux does not separate metals, it can reduce metal oxides or oxidize metals or liquify the melt giving more viscosity to ensure good collection of all metals into the collector metal on the bottom of the melt. Slag and flux however will float on top of your melt. They also are used to close off oxygen to a melt. 

Burning plastics can result in loss of values, if I have understood it correctly. Pyrolize and incinerate is the way to go. 
Quote:_"Hello guys , after i burned the plastic shells to get the gold plated pins out" _ You should be shut down and sued by the authorities. 
When burning poly vinyl chlorides, (PVC) you will release chlorides (or is it chlorines?), furans, dioxides, evil fairies and what not into OUR CLEAN AIR WE ALL BREATHE!! Companies get sued and shut down for that! 
Melting *ores* with a flux is usually done for a reason. every flux has it's purpose; oxidizing, reducing, both, increasing viscosity... Where did you get your recipe for this particular mix from? 

Burned plastic shells? From sockets with pins? From which reliable source did you get that advice? Why not just throw them in AP? 
You read somewhere there is a flux that magically separates the PM's from the BM's? Where exactly? source info would help a lot. I have my doubts.... only a few....

So to summarize all of your questions in one simple answer: 

NO ! 

Best advice I can give you again and again and again:
STOP AND GO STUDY!!!!!!! 
But I have a feeling that will not be you choice.


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## kurtak (Feb 8, 2021)

As Martijn said - NO :!: 

with that flux - ALL the metals will simply melt into one alloy of all the metals

The flux will ONLY slag off the ash/carbon from the burned plastic

Kurt


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## sayf (Feb 8, 2021)

kurtak said:


> As Martijn said - NO :!:
> 
> with that flux - ALL the metals will simply melt into one alloy of all the metals
> 
> ...


Hi kurt and martijin , guys i have a master degree in physics so reading is always my first priority so i dont know how you assumed that i dont study? , mr martijin i did read hawks book and almost every important section in this forum, but if reading will be the only thing i do then ill never do any unique thing
Firstly a friend of mine used the same method i told you in this post and melted gold plated pins, he got a strange result that the gold was separated in a thin layer surrounding the pyramid from all sides 
So how can u explain that if you are insisting that the gold will by mixed with the alloy ? 
Look at the first attachment below
Secondly i got this idea from an expert who used it on ores 
He used a shaker table to separate heavy metlas 
Then heated to turn them from sulfides to oxides then melted them with the above combo of fluxes in addition to potassium nitrates, 
At the end of the process he got a gold nugget at the top of the inverted pyramid, again tell me how he did that if my assumption is wrong? 
ill attach photos for his result below my result 
If his method works on ores, why cant we simply use it on pins? 
if i am mistaken you can correct me guys and remember that am not a chemist and i always consult you the guys with high experience


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## nickvc (Feb 8, 2021)

I fear that photo shows the brass alloy and all the rubbish on top of it, it’s not just gold.
The chance of doing anything unique in gold refining is very very slim, maybe you may find a new recovery process but to do that you need to follow the already tried and tested methods first, master and understand them and then perhaps you may find a new idea to improve on them, there are no shortcuts you have to do the simple processes first and learn when things go wrong why.
As to your degree in physics, well done but that really won’t help in recovery and refining to any serious amount, we have had chemistry doctorates who soon realize that they know nothing about this hobby or business as their understanding is pure chemistry not real world reactions.
You can do this but you have to read and study and fully understand what you read, there are few shortcuts unless you want to lose your values, your background should help but remember this is one or two very very big science subjects and no one knows it all but on this forum most things are discussed in detail by people who have spent in some cases 40-60 years doing what you are trying to learn.


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## sayf (Feb 8, 2021)

nickvc said:


> I fear that photo shows the brass alloy and all the rubbish on top of it, it’s not just gold.
> The chance of doing anything unique in gold refining is very very slim, maybe you may find a new recovery process but to do that you need to follow the already tried and tested methods first, master and understand them and then perhaps you may find a new idea to improve on them, there are no shortcuts you have to do the simple processes first and learn when things go wrong why.
> As to your degree in physics, well done but that really won’t help in recovery and refining to any serious amount, we have had chemistry doctorates who soon realize that they know nothing about this hobby or business as their understanding is pure chemistry not real world reactions.
> You can do this but you have to read and study and fully understand what you read, there are few shortcuts unless you want to lose your values, your background should help but remember this is one or two very very big science subjects and no one knows it all but on this forum most things are discussed in detail by people who have spent in some cases 40-60 years doing what you are trying to learn.


Thank you nick
i always say that people who claims the knowledge of every thing are the people who know nothing. i mention my physics degree just to show that am a student not a man who knows every thing , that layer is gold i already tested it with nitric acid it sorrounds the whole pyramid but its not clear because some impurites are covering it here is another attachment after cleaning the top with some hot water and a sponge


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## Shark (Feb 8, 2021)

It looks like melted pins to me. They have the same look as when I melted pins with an excess of copper for my copper cell. Pins and ores are two different beasts completely. Many pins are brass base, some are copper based and some are even iron based and very possibly there others out there as well. I have very little experience with ores and will refer to those with real experience at it. Pins and copper bars I have dealt with some. For smelting my first go to person would be Kurt, I know he has been there before me and he learns to do things safely AND efficiently. When he has advice, it is wise to pay attention to him. The quality of the gold button beside my name can be directly attributed to him and his advice. There are many others on the forum as well, most would like to see the questions before the attempts are made for good reason. If I follow another persons advice , step by step, they can better help me through the entire process.


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## Shark (Feb 8, 2021)

Here is one of my bars that was 80% copper/20% pins. All pins were from computer parts and none were high grade. The amount of gold from this bar was tiny. The gold button recovered was small enough to fit through fine mesh screen wire. The only reason I used any flux was an attempt to deal with a small amount of iron.


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## Martijn (Feb 8, 2021)

Sayf, I apologize for my harsh reply. I can get a bit angry when people simply burn plastic and not properly pyrolize and incinerate as you probably have done. I know some things, and don't pretend to know everything. Never have. 

You may have stumbled upon a new way of refining. 
You said you read it some where. Can you share where you got this info with us? I sure can't explain it with my limited knowledge. 
I'm amazed by that thick layer of gold floating on top of that copper/brass coloured pyramid where you logically first expected the heavy gold to accumulate on the bottom. Those metals should have formed an alloy under 'normal' circumstances with a flux like that. Something kept them apart and made them defy gravity. 

The flux may need to be altered to treat pins in stead of ores. There are big differences in composition pin metals and ores as you probably know. 

Does that green oxide(?) layer run all the way through the cone mold button or is it only along the sides? Can you get shavings from different areas and test them for gold content? 

I would like the expert to share his knowledge with us. Do you know him, or have you read about it from him? 
This can be quite promising if true. 

Martijn.


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## nickvc (Feb 8, 2021)

My only comment to your latest picture is dissolve it in nitric and see what’s left, I’m fairly sure the answer will be very little, you cannot just melt pins and get just gold it’s totally illogical, and if you are a man of science you can surely see that, if you can’t I will not reply to another of your posts and leave you to your ignorance.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 8, 2021)

The reason you can smelt ore with flux and pour the molten mass into a cone mold to get a button of gold in the "top" of the pyramid and not with pins is because you start with different materials.

The ore is first roasted to convert any sulfides, hydroxides, sulfates... into oxides. Then mixing it with the flux it reacts with the oxides when molten and the oxides are absorbed into the flux, forming slag. The slag is a lot lighter than pure metals so it floats to the top while the metals sinks to the bottom forming an alloy of whatever free metals remained after the roasting.
Varying the flux you can both oxidize or reduce metals to have them moving from the slag to the metal button. For example adding litharge (lead oxide) and charcoal to the flux creates small lead droplets that alloys with gold or other precious metals and sinks to the bottom.

The pins are all in a metallic state so it will form an alloy and sink to the bottom. Since copper, zinc, nickel, silver, gold... easily forms an alloy you will have a big metal button containing all the metals. Only small amounts of oxides will dissolve into the flux.
There are some ways to reduce the amount of base metals in the button, for example oxygen sparging, but nothing that is easy to do with simple means.

A common way for small size electronic recycler to operate is to melt all scrap together with a suitable flux, oxygen sparge to remove iron, zinc or other reactive metals. This creates a copper bar that contains all the precious metals from the scrap. These "refiners bars" are sampled, weight and sent off to a copper smelter. Here it is mixed with raw copper and goes into a copper electrolytic refining plant. The precious metals creates a sludge that is processed further to extract the precious metals.

That is why we are saying it will not work. Many people have proposed this but none have come back to show success.

And the reason the large button shows yellow coloration on the top is probably from when the slag cooled and cracked, some oxygen came down and the surface oxidized when the button was hot.

By the way, I have a degree in physicist too, MSE.

Göran


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## lg701 (Feb 9, 2021)

sayf may be referring to videos on YouTube by Jason of mbmmllc. Jason demonstrates a lot of
ways to reduce ores with different fluxes, but they are equipment sellers first, not refiners.

Mt. Baker Mining and Metals was founded in 2011 by Jason Gaber. MBMM was born as a business to meet demand created when word of the Gaber’s ingenuity spread throughout the small-scale mining community, and grew to include jaw crushers, hammer mills, shaker tables and full turn-key integrated equipment systems.
MBMM grew quickly and enjoys a world-wide reputation for reliability as an American manufacturer of high-quality material reduction, classification, and gravity concentration equipment. Customers in the small scale mining, printed circuit board recycling, scrap metal, construction, and concrete/granite recycling industries have success with our machines.

Just look up "mbmmllc" on YT for some excellent videos. He does stray into some electronic equipment
processing if you're interested.


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## Martijn (Feb 9, 2021)

I've had a PM from sayf, with the link. 
https://youtu.be/1m_8sjII-AM
I have replied with a long explaination hoping to clarify his questions and hopes. If he wants, he can share my reply here so my hobbyist noob statements can pass through the consensus filter. 
We're good. 
Martijn.


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## Martijn (Feb 9, 2021)

And i think i've binge watched all his video's over the last year being bored with this pandemic. 
It is causing a lot of people to look for an interesting hobby or income. Same as every holiday we get new members, this has been a year long holliday


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## g_axelsson (Feb 9, 2021)

Well, that explains where he got the pictures from. And as I wrote, ore is not the same thing as pins.

And a comment to that video, I don't think putting a frying pan on top of the furnace is counted as roasting the ore and driving off any sulfides. It's too cold for that. You need at least dull red heat with an oxidizing atmosphere.
Though it will dry out the concentrate, which is a good thing to do before you put anything into a furnace.

Göran


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## kurtak (Feb 9, 2021)

sayf

first of all - smelting ores & smelting actual metals (like pins) are two COMPLETELY different things

I will say this one more time - smelting pins & the burned plastic - with that flux - will do NOTHING but slag of the ash &/or carbon from the burned plastic & ALL the metals will melt TOGETHER giving you an ALLOY of all the metals --- Period

Second - pulling some pictures off the internet - & then "claiming" a friend of yours did this as proof of what you WANT to be true - DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE --- in fact trying to pull the wool over our eyes with such a B.S. stunt makes you a "liar" --- in other words - I don't need to think &/or assume that you are lying --- you busted yourself by trying to pull such a stunt 

Concerning one of those pictures (that you pulled off the internet) you said ----



> that layer is gold i already tested it with nitric acid



Please tell me how you go about "testing" the metal in a picture that you have pulled off the internet :?: 

Now then - that said - I am always MORE THEN WILLING to help people that come hear to learn about the recovery & refining of PMs

However - I DO NOT suffer FOOLS --- in other words - I do NOT waste my time trying to help people that are dishonest (in the first place) - then post something hoping they will get confirmation of of what they THINK will work - instead of coming here to seek actual advice of how & what works so that they can actually learn how to do this

Therefore - you have two options --------

1) start by being honest with "yourself" so that you can be honest with us - so that your mind will open up to excepting the advice you are seeking in order to learn how to actually learn to do this with real success - or ----------

2) you can continue down this path of seeking confirmation (of what you THINK should work) in which case you will soon find members here will stop wasting their time trying to help someone (you) that is not actually here seeking help but is only here to get confirmation of what they think works

One thing is for sure --- this is my last post to you - unless you are able to show me that you are actually here seeking REAL advice - willing to listen & learn

In other words - there are easier ways to teach you - then wasting my time arguing about something you THINK you know

Edit to add; - sayf --- you need to understand that the internet is FULL of misinformation &/or incomplete information --- here on this forum you will find "actual" information given to (new) members by members that have been "actually" DOING this for YEARS including a good many of members here that do this "for a living" &/or did but are now retired from doing this "as a living" --- in other words - they are ether currently making money doing this everyday - or they have spent their life everyday to make a living (money) doing this --- don't you think you should listen to the people that KNOW how to do this to make their everyday living

Kurt


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## Martijn (Feb 9, 2021)

Kurt, I have to give Sayf the benefit of the doubt here, All the pictures are from the expert he did give the link to. He said so in his post as a second source of info. Above the first picture. 
He only said the first picture is from a friend. I could not find that picture in one of mbmm's videos. Yet...
So maybe he's not as intentionally misleading as it appears now. 
I hope. 
....


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## etack (Feb 9, 2021)

I always thought the videos of him (YouTube by Jason of mbmmllc) grinding E-waste and using a shaker table to separate it to be stupid. Ground e-waste is not ore nor act like it. I would want his "tailings".


Eric


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## nickvc (Feb 9, 2021)

Many newbies seem to look for an easy way to recover and refine, my comment would have to be if it was easy everyone and their dog would be doing it.


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## butcher (Feb 10, 2021)

Yep after watching a few videos I think I can build myself a rocket in my backyard and get to the moon.
Shucks, it will be as simple as shooting the rocket into the air and letting it fall back onto trajectory into a collision path of the moon with me along for the ride. I just haven't figured out how to get back yet, Oh well I guess we can figure that out later.

The more I learn, the more difficult it seems I will get there safely with my ideas, or even get there at all.

Well the more I learn, the more I see how much I did not know, it seems it may not be as easy as I thought, and I may have to learn a lot more before I should try to begin my flight. The more I learn, the more I can see where small details in my plan can become disastrous to my success, the small details can become the difference in getting off the ground or not with my ideas.

So many times we see new members trying to fly before they understand much of anything about the process, or even before they even learn how the process works.


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## sayf (Feb 11, 2021)

kurtak said:


> sayf
> 
> first of all - smelting ores & smelting actual metals (like pins) are two COMPLETELY different things
> 
> ...


Well thats a very long list of misunderstanding kurt i think you need to read my post well , if you have noticed the forum you will see that most of the posts in the last 5 months are made by me, if i am not a guy who is seeking knowledge as (you) think i wouldnt ask or post anything
i said that the first photo is from my friend and the others are from a specialist youtuber, any ways thank you for your reply.


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## sayf (Feb 11, 2021)

g_axelsson said:


> Well, that explains where he got the pictures from. And as I wrote, ore is not the same thing as pins.
> 
> And a comment to that video, I don't think putting a frying pan on top of the furnace is counted as roasting the ore and driving off any sulfides. It's too cold for that. You need at least dull red heat with an oxidizing atmosphere.
> Though it will dry out the concentrate, which is a good thing to do before you put anything into a furnace.
> ...



Cant we simply oxidize the copper in the pins while using silver as a collector? Will not that make a bullion with the right flux guran?


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## g_axelsson (Feb 11, 2021)

sayf said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that explains where he got the pictures from. And as I wrote, ore is not the same thing as pins.
> ...



No, it's not that easy to oxidize copper. The flux will form a cover and the metal pool in the bottom of the crucible. The only place there 
will be any chemical reactions is in the boundary between the slag and the metal.

If it was easy, everybody would do it.

Göran


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## kurtak (Feb 17, 2021)

sayf said:


> i have a master degree in physics so reading is always my first priority



If that is true - then you NEED to read these two threads :!:

:arrow: Smelting

:arrow: Pyrolysis reactor

Kurt


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