# The N00B report



## edj1963 (Dec 26, 2007)

with apologies to the moderator, no real place for this.

After much hem hawing and procrastination, my first batches are under way.

So far my expenditure for chems and scrap has been significant, flying blind here a little cause i have no experiential data on yields.

Outlay includes shipping
Scrap 33 lbs of ram from ebay cost $179.61 
50 slot CPUs $36.98
1 LB COMPUTER FINGERS HIGH YEILD <--these were nice, love to have a few hundred pounds 8) $67.51

so the total just for scrap to process was a whopping $284.10 
:shock: 

Acid, buckets and other chems ( i aint done either)
3 gals of HCL, 4 or 5 buckets, peroxide, etc guesstimate at $50.

so my total is $335.00 assuming my time is worthless :lol: 

My scrap trimmed out was equal to 1,460 grams of fingers....

now the question is can i recover exactly 12.6410 grams of 24K to break even, assuming my time is worthless :?: 

We shall see!

My first observation is that this is a hard way to make a living. I suppose that with the proper scale of production one could make a bit of cash. for 5k a month at today's melt you would have to process enough scrap to recover 189, 24k grams per month....of course 5k doesn't go that far so the number is low ball
the cost of chems
the cost of scrap
the cost of man hours
industrial rental space
waste elimination
liability insurance

Tough racket....

will the noob lose his shirt, will he make a profit, will he scream in exhasperation, will his wife grow tired of the Dr. Frankenstein routine and kick him out, because of the chems, smells and odd behaviors in the garage; will the black SUV's show up and and disappear our intrepid N00B to a bunk at Guantanamo? 

Stay tuned


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## jimdoc (Dec 26, 2007)

Ed,
Try to get as much stuff for free.
Advertise on Craigslist or freecycle
and you may be surprised what you
can find for free. Ebay isn't the place
to make money on this stuff unless
you are selling.
Jim


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## edj1963 (Dec 26, 2007)

yeah I have noticed...I think the fever drives people nutty, same thing happens with buying bullion, people are easily and routinely buying 1gm bullion for spot plus a 30 - 50% premium... good if you're selling not so great if you are buying :lol: 

This has been a good learning experience though, no regrets.


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## jimdoc (Dec 26, 2007)

Even if you get the stuff for free you then have
to dismantle the stuff and dispose of the extra
stuff. Some of it will get you extra money like
the aluminum and copper. But I guess when you
really look at it, it may be worth buying stuff all
ready to go depending on your available space
to keep stuff. Sometimes the free stuff dries up
for a bit and then you will get a call from somebody
with a garage or basement full. It keeps me busy
and I have fun also. 
Just remember not to get caught up in the "fever"
of Ebay or you may lose interest quick. The equipment
and chemicals are expensive enough for me, thats
why I like free.Bottom line is have fun,learn and be safe. 
Jim


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## Lino1406 (Dec 29, 2007)

1460g of same should give 29g gold


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## lazersteve (Dec 29, 2007)

Lino,

I would be very surprised to see him get 10 grams from the scrap he has listed. 

I figure no more than 3 grams per pound for his finger yields at best.

1460g / 454g =~3.22 pounds

3.22 x 3 = 9.66 grams.

Steve


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## Lino1406 (Jan 1, 2008)

Hello Steve,
I have several explanations for that:
1.This is my experience
2.The difference can be attributed
to 10microns thickness instead of 30
as should be for those high friction fingers
3.Although that can turn a profit into a loss,
It's still, "scientifically speaking" the same
order of magnitude


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## lazersteve (Jan 1, 2008)

Lino,

My numbers are based upon many experiments with sorted scrap of the exact type to which he is referring.

I did generalize my numbers based upon maximum expected yields.

Here's the actual break down on the specifics:
Scrap Source
1) 33 lbs of ram 
a) Average weight is 25 sticks per pound. (variance with SIMM vs DIMMs)
b) Average cut finger yield is 1 ounce per pound
c) Average Yield Data per pound of memory fingers is 2.5 grams
d) Catfish and GSP do the math in this link.
A) 33 lbs x 1 ounce of fingers per pound = 33 ounces / 16 ounces per pound= 2.1 lbs of cut fingers x 2.5 g yield = 5.25 grams of 24kt.

2) 50 slot CPUs
a) Yield data for these CPU fingers is known to be ~0.0118 grams per CPU finger.
b) Actual slotted CPU yield experiment
 B) 50 cpus x 0.0118 grams per cpu = 0.59 grams of 24kt

3) 1 Pound High Yield Fingers
a) Yield data for high grade double sided ISA fingers is known to be 1.89 grams per pound.
b) Experimental Yield Data for ISA fingers
C) 1 lb x 1.89 grams per pound = 1.89 grams 24kt.

Summarizing :
5.25 grams + 0.59 grams + 1.89 grams = 

7.73 grams of 24 kt Au based upon previous experimental data.

In closing, I will concede that it is possible to find fingers that will yield up to three times that listed for the ISA fingers. With this fact in mind the total yield for the batches could approach:

5.25 + 0.59 + 5.67 = 11.51 grams of 24 kt.

The only place you can expect a variation in this data is with the 'High Yield Fingers'. For these batches to yield 29 grams the single pound of fingers would have to yield:

29 - 5.25 - 0.59 = 23.16 grams 24 kt Au per pound of fingers :shock: 

I want some of those fingers!!!! :lol: 

I trust what you are saying about your yields, so I'm now curious as to where you are getting your fingers from?

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 1, 2008)

Steve,

Have you ever related the yields with plated surface area? It would be interesting to know this so the plating thickness of the fingers, etc., could be calculated.


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## lazersteve (Jan 1, 2008)

GSP,

Never have. 

I have always trusted my experimental yields. Judging from the results you and Catfish come up with it looks like the formulas are right in line with the actual experimental yields. 

How thick the plating is obviously is a major determining factor to quality. 

Do you recall the highest finger yields per pound you have seen? I know you mentioned the figure some time back.

Steve


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## loco (Jan 1, 2008)

almost looks like (as mentioned on here before) the sellers of e-scrap on ebay are more likely to make the $$ vs. processing it themselves. 

looks like the real choice is in the fun of processing or the $$ value at the end? depends on the persons motive I guess.


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## Lino1406 (Jan 2, 2008)

1sq.cmX30microns=
1X0.003X19.3=58mg.


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## edj1963 (Jan 2, 2008)

wow, there is some massive brain power here :!: Thanks for the input, it'll be cool to compare yield with the experiential and mathematical assumptions.

I am through the the first phases of the process, this morning i converted the foils to Auric Chloride....it was rather cool to watch the reaction. 
All I have to do now is wait for my MSB, precipitate and smelt.

Any feed back on the torch rig? Does propane get hot enough to smelt, or will i need MAAP does any one use the small tanks available at lowes?

Man oh man, i used way to much clorox in the process, looks like I'll be waiting donkeys years for the out-gass to finish (is that the proper term? I know that hard objects "out gass" but what does a liquid do?) minutia :lol: bad trait of nit pickers and vampires.... any guesses as to how long it takes to evaporate the chlorine?

LazerSteve, you mention your Auric Chloride was diluted 5 times over, is that a precise standard? 

Pix of my very first batch of AuCl3!


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## Noxx (Jan 2, 2008)

You'll be able to melt gold with a propane torch but it will be much longer than MAPP or acety/oxy.

Oh and good job for your first batch 8)


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 2, 2008)

Lino1406. 

I've never seen 30 micron gold plating, at least not on fingers. I have seen a lot of 30 microinch (.75 micron) gold on fingers.

Steve. 

The best fingers I've seen would run $170/pound, at today's market - I ran them about 16 years ago. The best pins I've seen (from the '30's or '40's - heavy gold on heavy silver on copper) ran about 1 tr.oz./pound = $855/pound. Some guy had a huge buried cache of these pins, somewhere near the N.M/Texas line. Every 6 mos., or so, he would bring a pickup load to us, in L.A.

Steve,

I trust your yields. I didn't mean to use my calculations to prove your yields. I meant the opposite, for your yields to more accurately correct my estimates of thickness. My math is correct, but it requires guesswork on the thickness. It would be very informative to have real thickness numbers, for various things, based on your yields.


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## Noxx (Jan 2, 2008)

1 tr.oz./pound :shock: :shock: 
Were they military type ?


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## lazersteve (Jan 2, 2008)

GSP,

I never really looked at it like that. 

I guess in the past I've always been content to know what type of scrap produces a particular yield, the plating thickness never really occured to me.

You're right it would be good information to have.

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 2, 2008)

Don't know, Noxx. They were loose. Probably WWII.


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## Lino1406 (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Steve
To my best knowledge it is 2microns 
(80microinches). Now if you take
twice that ammount for "double sided"
and relate it to a "nominal" substrate 
weight we might have a good estimation
of gold weight percentage. It seems that
you are strong in this.
Lino1406


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## edj1963 (Jan 31, 2008)

:roll: 

lost my butt... but it was fun and I learned a bit. ended up selling a 5.5 gram button for my efforts.

EOS

Thanks for the input guys....


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## banjags (Feb 1, 2008)

To me that seems a little on the low side for yield. Steve predictions are usually very close. Have you checked your solutions with stannous chloride to make sure there is not gold still in solution?


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## lazersteve (Feb 1, 2008)

I think he got his hands on some low to medium yield fingers as opposed to 'high yield fingers' like the ebay seller stated. 


Ed, 

Can you tell me if the card fingers (not the memory and slotted cpu fingers) were double sided and fully plated (no missing fingers on either side)? If not then there goes the yields I quoted. The numbers I quoted were for fully plated double side card fingers, not the single sided, partially fingered junk fingers that are very common.

Banjags is right on, test all your solutions with stannous before you reuse or cement out the copper with iron. I seriously doubt you'll find more than 0.25 g of gold in your left over solutions, but who knows.


Steve


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## banjags (Feb 1, 2008)

buying fingers and processors off of ebay i think is a loosing proposition to begin with unless you are the seller or sneak in a killer dealer . There is one guy that sells 2 ounces of fingers for like $20 plus shipping... ouch. Makes me think about selling my bag of fingers 2 ounces at a time instead of refining.


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## edj1963 (Feb 1, 2008)

There were more mid to low grade fingers than high, Steve was pretty darn close....
I'm almost positive that I lost value in the mechanics of my process....ie, careful tracking of solutions, proper grading of the material (I overestimated)

This next batch will be done much more carefully. Smaller batches for one, the amount was far too much for a first attempt.

Next process will be some CPU's, trimmed cards that have gold under the solder, pins, header's and slots...etc.

Looking at setting up a cell too  too bad a cell won't work with GF and karat scrap....need more study though


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## banjags (Feb 1, 2008)

edj1963 said:


> Looking at setting up a cell too  too bad a cell won't work with GF and karat scrap....need more study though



check out this thread

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=41&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlighturl


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