# RENAMED : TOADIES FIRST CELL



## toadiesop (Apr 10, 2007)

I've finally found Rooto locally and I want to make my first cell tonight.  

But, this is in crystal form. Do I mix it with water to make sulfuric suitable for a cell? HCL?

What amounts of each?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## lazersteve (Apr 10, 2007)

Sorry to tell you, but you got the NaOH drainer opener-- not the same thing. Rooto is a brand name that makes several varieties of drain openers. The stuff you want is in a large jug wrapped in a plastic bag. Try ACE hardware.

Steve


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## toadiesop (Apr 10, 2007)

Thanks Steve, glad I DIDN'T buy it then, I was waiting for someone to reply to this first.... but now I have "Liquid Lightening". 

$9.00 for 32 ounces.

It says Virgin Sulfuric Acid! Whoo hoo!!

It seemed kind of expensive for just 32 ounces, but I knew it had to be what I wanted.

I just googled it and came up with the MSDS.

http://www.lawsupply.net/cemicals/msds/Jones_Stephens/Floweasymsds.pdf


94% ?? woha!!

Any added recommendations? I think I've heard of 70% as the most common concentration.

I still have to go build my cathode before I start so I have a another quick question..

I don't have a "normal" battery charger per say. I have a tripp-lite pr-40. It puts out 40 amps though. Is that way to high or will it still work and I just have to watch it carefully because it will work so quickly.

OR..... can I use a PC power supply. They push about 5 amps or so if i remember right.... That will just take longer right? I have at least 30 laying around.

I know about the amperage meter and how you know when the gold is gone when it goes to zero.... I'm just wondering if either one of these supplies will work for tonight. I'm so excited for this. 

I'm sure if neither one of these Power supplies are suitable for short time use, I can make some calls and a real one borrow later tonight when I'm ready to fire it up.

Thanks for any help anyone can give me.

EDIT!!!!!!!!!

And by the way, I'm not doing anything except construction of the cell until I hear back from someone. I'm not stupid.... 8)


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## lazersteve (Apr 10, 2007)

I didn't have much luck with the pc supply myself, try it and let us know how it works for you. Is the tripplite a UPS (Uninterupptable Power Supply)? I never tried using one so I can say yeah or nay if it will work. The higher amps is no biggie as long as you don't over do the anode load vs the positive wire size ( larger wires handle more current). If the positive lead gets hot your pushing it too far. I'll keep an eye out tonight for your messages.

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 10, 2007)

At this full strength, it may not work as well as it would if you were to dilute it a little. If you do dilute it, follow these instructions. If you're sure about the strength, I would dilute it to start with. Even if it isn't that strong, the dilution probably won't hurt

*DON'T POUR THE WATER INTO THE SULFURIC!!!* If you do you could create instant steam and splatter the acid all over. 

Instead:

(1) Calculate how much water you'll need for a 5% (1/19 th water) dilution, by volume. This depends on how much acid you need for the cell. For example: For 19 fluid ounces of acid, use 1 fluid ounce of water. The ratio doesn't have to be perfect, just close.
(2) Measure the required water. Add the water to the empty cell.
(3) Put on your gloves and face shield. Carefully, add the required sulfuric to the water. It will get hot at first but, will cool off when most of the sulfuric has been added. Don't be startled if it fizzes a bit when you start adding the sulfuric.
(4) When the sulfuric is in, carefully stir it until blended. Try not to slop it over the sides.


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## toadiesop (Apr 10, 2007)

thanks steve and goldsilver pro. great info from both of you.

I've been trying to make my cathode and I'm having trouble. Nothing big, I can make the bars perfect, I'm just having problems getting the 90 degree angles melted together. I've watched the tutorials many times and I know weht I have to do, I just don't have the means (or the practice) to do it perfectly. I'd get one angle perfect and then loose all my lead (through a stupid tiny leak) on the other angle and then I'd start over.

So I sat around thinking... what can I make a mold with? If I made my 3 lead bars, and made a mold out of them I could just meltthe lead and pour it in..... sounds easy.

I found some Rockite (box says... expansion cement, stronger that concrete in one hour, dries in 15 minutes)

I only have a 16 ounce box (tag says $2.49) so my mold space is limited.... sooooo...... CD-ROM CASE!!! Looks perfect.

I gutted a CDROM and I'm about ready to fill the casing with Rockite and place my lead bars in there to make a mold. I'll be sure to let you know how it goes and I wish I could post pictures but the only way I'm getting batteries for my camera tonight is to spend $6 for two AAs at a convenience store. Nope.

But I'll be sure to keep you all informed and if it works well, I'll just do it again with camera at the ready.

or... maybe I'll look through the remote controls... :twisted: wouldn't be the first time.


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## lazersteve (Apr 10, 2007)

Here's a cathode mold that I use. It's the same one as in the video but with a right angle in it.







and a closeup of the weld for the 90. Notice the outside corner is all one continuous piece. I just cut a triangle out of the straight channel and bent:






It's all one piece just cut partially thru and bent into a 90 and welded at the seem. The ends are folded up to stop any leaks. To make the other side just flip the cooled cathode over press it into the mold and and refill with molten lead. Be sure the new joint of the cathode becomes fully molten and cools 100% before you move it. Warm lead is very brittle.

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 10, 2007)

If you can't get the mold to work. I know that this is not the way that Steve designed it but, you could use a thin piece of sheet metal - maybe about 1/32". Use bare steel, not stainless or galvanized. Make it high enough to fold a bit over the edge of the container. Try to fold it tight so it doesn't swing out in the solution, You want it to stay pretty close to the side to keep from shorting out on the parts.


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## lazersteve (Apr 10, 2007)

Chris,

Won't the steel cathde cause copper that gets dissolved to plate out as a fine red powder?

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 10, 2007)

It shouldn't be any different than using lead. If if plates on the steel, it'll plate on the lead. The solution makes the difference - not the cathode material. You could probably even use copper - it would be easier to mold around the edge.

Steve, are you talking about plating due to the current or immersion plating due to the relative positions of copper and iron (or lead) in the electromotive activity series? If the former, iron and lead should be the same, since the H2 generated at the cathode should keep the surfaces reduced to metal. When the current is shut off, the latter would apply. I suppose, if it sat in the solution long enough, the lead could form a lead sulfate coating and prevent copper from immersing on it.

If it does immerse on the iron, I wouldn't worry about it, After rinsing the cathode well, take a paper towel and wipe off the copper before reusing. It should be loosely adherent and come right off. I doubt if you'll need to do this, though. Although there's probably no values wiped off, you might save all paper towels for eventual burning and recovery of any gold.

Very little copper dissolves in strong sulfuric, especially the strength that toadiesop is using.


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 10, 2007)

toadiesop,

Are you cementing the mold or the lead? I know of no glue or cement that will stand up to strong sulfuric acid


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. 

My mold didn't work because the "Rockite" formed way too quick as i was pouring it in the mold. It's my own fault though, I waited too long before I tried to set it. Oh well. I love to experiment anyways.. (don't we all?)

So I made my cathode, it's ugly, but like Steve said before.. they usually are. I just free formed it again. One side is great, but the other is, well, not so great. I think it will work just fine though.

Sadly, I don't know if I'm going to try it out tonight, I'm hungry and I need to clear space before I set it up. I think I might be too lazy after my midnight snack to get it going (even though I spent all day making it). :lol: 

Please keep up the good info here. Sometimes it's hard to find all the really descriptive answers on this forum. They're EVERYWHERE! That's a very good thing, but I sometimes find myself going through every thread before I find the exact reply I was looking for.

I plan on compiling and editing all the imperative info on every thread down into a PDF within the next month or so. If anyone wants to help with that endeavor please let me know. It basically involves reading EVERY thread (again) and copy/paste/organize all the good stuff and categorize it into a PDF file. I think with all the great information that is on here, it's just hard to find sometimes. And it would take no time at all to update the PDF every month. 

You know what I mean? There's great info on Platinum in the "general gold thread"

You might find excellent info on reverse electroplating in the Platinum section.

Just about every section has good information on Aqua Reqia..

ect.

It's something I've been thinking about. and of course the PDF would be linked ONLY from here and Steve's site (if you want to host it there Steve)


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

goldsilverpro, I missed your post right before my last one.

I was trying to use some lead bars that I made, cut them to the exact sizes needed and then set them in a fine concrete mold exactly the way I wanted the full cathode to look like.

I was going to set my three pieces in:

11
11
11
11
11
11 33
11 33
11 33
11 33
11 33
222222222222222222222222222222222222222222
222222222222222222222222222222222222222222

once the cement hardened I figured I could melt the lead out of it again and touch up the mold. Then I just pour fresh molten lead into the groove everytime I wanted a new cathode.


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

weird, those 3's should be all the way to the right.

that's how it was when I posted it.


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 11, 2007)

Good luck. I'm sure it will work.

Good idea on the organization. It's gotten big so fast. And, many things are now haphazard. Probably the categories could have been a little different to better organize things but, who knew what to use at the start? Thank God for Search. Maybe the pdf's should be made Stickies.

Wish I had time to help but, I seem to spend all my time posting.


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 11, 2007)

I haven't made one so, I can't answer with knowledge. Better ask Steve.


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

> I seem to spend all my time posting



Nothing wrong with that at all!! And you're right that this got big quick. I have no question that I can get the PDFs together, it's just a matter even more free time.

I would have had a great start on it today if I wasn't spending all my time building my first cell. 

:lol:


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 11, 2007)

We both seem to be one post behind for the last 5 or 6 posts.

I'm going to bed.


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## lazersteve (Apr 11, 2007)

Toadie,

I've gotten all the first four sections into pdf and parts of others. I haven't done any editing just printing to pdf. It's not that big of a project, just really boring printing pages over and over. I may have to break out with a vbs script get the job done on a continuous basis. Once they are creatd updating them is a piece of cake if you just stay up on it. I'll have some samples of the pdfs soon.

Steve


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## Fever (Apr 11, 2007)

toadiesop said:


> Please keep up the good info here. Sometimes it's hard to find all the really descriptive answers on this forum. They're EVERYWHERE! That's a very good thing, but I sometimes find myself going through every thread before I find the exact reply I was looking for.
> 
> I plan on compiling and editing all the imperative info on every thread down into a PDF within the next month or so. If anyone wants to help with that endeavor please let me know. It basically involves reading EVERY thread (again) and copy/paste/organize all the good stuff and categorize it into a PDF file. I think with all the great information that is on here, it's just hard to find sometimes. And it would take no time at all to update the PDF every month.
> 
> ...



This is an outstanding idea, Todie!

I have also been thinking of a good way to save all of these excellent posts in some sort of organized way, specific to particular applications. There is soooooo much good stuff in here. Prior to finding this forum, I'd been searching for months to find much of the simple information posted here everyday! This place is indeed quite special....

Please keep us posted on your progress with your cell. I'm in the same stage of completion as yourself with my cell, and I too love to experiment with different options.

Fever


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

Steve, the tripplite power supply I was talking about is not a UPS.

It's just a heavy duty power supply, favored amonst HAM radio operators apparently.







http://www.bestwebbuys.com/electronics/Tripp_Lite_PR_40_Power_converter-4279449.html?isrc=e-search


So if I understood you, this will be okay to use as long as the positive wire coming from the back of the power supply to the anode is larger than the wire I placed between the alligator clips??

Thanks again.


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## lazersteve (Apr 11, 2007)

Here's some wire size info:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It's good practice to over rate the required wire size. You don't want to run 40A thru a wire that peaks at 41A (AWG 12), you should use one that can handle 55A (AWG 10).

Steve


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks for that Steve. I just went through my pile of comps and found an AT Power supply. It's 12 volts @ 7.5 amps. I'm gonna start with that before I bring in the big guns. :lol:

I'm getting closer!


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

IT'S ALIVE!!!!!

My cathode started reacting without any current though. Thoughts?

When I dipped a high grade CPU plate into it, both started foaming like crazy and the foam from the plate was well, golden color. :lol: 

Here's what it looks like after 3 plates were dipped.








wooo hooo!!


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## lazersteve (Apr 11, 2007)

First things first, disconnect the positive lead and remove the foil to see if the reaction continues without the power supply hooked up. If so then you have something in your cathode and/or the drain opener that are reacting with each other.
If the reaction stops after removing the anode, then may you have juice going to the system even when the switch is off. Break out your volt meter and check the voltage across the anode and cathode with the power switch off. Check both DC and AC volts. You may have floating ground.

Steve


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## toadiesop (Apr 11, 2007)

Steve, it started reacting without the power hooked up. Right when I dropped it in the acid.

Is that a problem? Will it make me not be able to recover the gold. Could the fumes be hazardous?

Everything I put in seems to deplate perfectly, but the foam became almost 1/4 inch think (and black). The Sulfuric Acid itself seemed very thick right out of the bottle. I'm just going to run it for a few days and see what happens.

I think I may have to dilute it like goldsilverpro mentioned. Or maybe it's like you said, theres something else in my lead???

I have to work now until 10 pm, but I await any info.

Thanks again guys.


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## lazersteve (Apr 11, 2007)

If you used standard lead fishing weights you probably have some sort of chemical in the acid. What other ingredients are in the acid?

Steve


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## toadiesop (Apr 12, 2007)

Yes, I just used standard lead weights. Do this think this reaction could be bad? (vapors?)

Probably hard to tell huh? I'm well ventilated so I'm not too worried.

The MSDS on the drain cleaner doens't state any other chemicals. It does say "Virgin Sufuric Acid with Buffers"

Buffers? 

What do you think my next step should be?


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 12, 2007)

Ah-Ha - Buffers!

Usually, buffers are used to confine the pH range. With the pH of concentrated sulfuric at zero, this use of this type buffer would be worthless. At least, I can't see how it would be possible or necessary. They must be defining the word "buffer" differently. Maybe, buffers that reduce the attack on certain materials in the drain system, although these types of additives are usually called inhibitors. Maybe, you could contact the mfgr. and ask what the buffers are, or at least, what function they perform.

All in all, according to the list of ingredients, something else has been added.

Even though it's working strangely, it may work fine for stripping purposes.


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## toadiesop (Apr 12, 2007)

Thanks goldsilverpro. I'll look into it a little more, but it does seem to be working great for stripping purposes. Well, from my perspective anyways, being my first cell and all. Everything is going right down to nickel nice and clean within a few seconds. 

I guess I'll see. I'm just de-plating so much random stuff right now that I'll never know if I'm working at 100% efficiency. 

I've been collecting this scrap for almost a year now and I've paid nothing for it. It makes it a little easier to experiment.  

The cell was first and that's done. I've ordered a few pounds each of sodium nitrate, meta and urea. I also bought 22k testing solution and a gram scale. 

Now I can attack the CPUs and fingers I have. And I'll have AR to refine whatever I get from the cell.

good times


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 12, 2007)

With a fresh solution, as long as the amps go to zero when the gold is completely stripped, I think it's OK. The reason the amps go to zero is that the anode generates oxygen, which oxidizes the layer under the gold (nickel, copper, etc.) and actually makes the surface of the anode non-conductive. It essentially becomes non-metallic. Gold doesn't oxidize and therefore dissolves, at least momentarily. If you continue getting amperage after stripping, the additives are preventing the formation of the oxide coating. This could dissolve the nickel or copper and give the solution a short life.


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## toadiesop (Apr 15, 2007)

Thanks pro, but I'm using a PC power supply so I don't have the amperage meter.

Like I said though it seems to be working alright, I'll probably just have more steps by the time I get to the AR process.

What do you guys think about plated jewelry? I went to my local thrift store and bought a few earings, necklaces, bracelets, ect. I spent 3 dollars not knowing if they were really plated or just costume jewelery.

Every single one reacted, so i went back and bought close to a pound of the stuff for $12. Only 2 pieces wont react. Have any of you had any luck on this thrift store jewelery? Some of it took some time to deplate.


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## lazersteve (Apr 15, 2007)

It's hit and miss with the plated jewelry. Usually miss for the yield versus weight unless you pay next to nothing for the scrap. There are exceptions to this of course.


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## toadiesop (Apr 15, 2007)

Thanks Steve, right now I just want to get enough to fill my cell!! :lol:


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 15, 2007)

One time I ran a couple of 30 gallon drums of cheap plated Swank costume jewelry, rejected from their plating facility. We bought it for a song, probably scrap copper price, and got an amazing amount of gold out of it.

Most gold on costume jewelry is only about 10 millionths of an inch thick - about $.07 per square inch of surface area, at today's prices. If you see costume jewelry stamped Karatclad, it will be at least 100 millionths thick - $.70/sq". Other good stuff is marked HGE - heavy gold electroplate.

The only thing that looks like gold is gold. Compare stuff side by side. Sometimes, the object is coated with lacquer. If so, you might not have made good contact. If the unstrippable items look like gold, you might try putting them through a paint stripper and then retry them. Many clear coatings will get chewed up by the sulfuric and could contaminate it. I would check the items first, by lightly scraping an area and looking at the scraped area with an eye loupe.


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## lazersteve (Apr 16, 2007)

Chris,

Do you know what quality the military dress uniform buttons are?

Steve


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## AgAuPtRh (Apr 16, 2007)

Lazersteve,

You would have to identify the button and manufacturer. Some of the old military buttons are 1/20 12 kt, some rolled gold and some plated.

The Waterbury button co. in Connecticut comes to mind. 

Some are marked Waterbury and some are marked W B Co. I think that might help in dating the time when they are made. 

If I remember correctly the different buttons were made for different ranks and styles of uniform. My Dads Dress Tux for Air Force Formals(retired Lt.Col.) has Karat value buttons but I can't remember how they were marked. heh heh !!! He saw me eyeballing his Tux and took it away from me.

I am also sure that you can fin gold in the braiding in Military Caps and Hats.
Gold in the braiding in Military Insignia and shoulder bars. 

Steve K


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## lazersteve (Apr 16, 2007)

I've got all sorts of them even silver ones.


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## toadiesop (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks guys... A lot of the large necklaces I've been finding are from Avon. I don't know it that's good or bad but they seem to take longer to de-plate from everything else.


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## toadiesop (Apr 16, 2007)

also, how can I tell if what is de-plating is really gold??? It reacts exactly the same in the acid as CPU plates and pins do. I know goldsilver pro said "the only thing that looks like gold is gold" but...

will other materials (that kind-of like gold) deplate? I have some large "lapel pins" that I get for 50 cents to a dollar. I know the plating, if any isn't much but I guess what I'm trying to say is:

Is there any other substance that could be used on these pieces that would react in the cell? Could I be contaminating my cell to the point where I can't use AR to refine?

Regarding the earring on the right, I processed the other one and it took FOREVER to deplate, close to minute, and I had to "swish" it around in the acid a few times. It turned reddish-orange by the time it was almost done.

any thoughts?


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## lazersteve (Apr 16, 2007)

If the cell is fizzing and a black residue is floating off into the cell, you are getting gold most likely. The longer the items take and the higher the amps on the meter the thicker the gold plate as a rule of thumb.

AR is going to handle your impurities like a charm don't fret that.

The reddish orange is most likely copper.

Great Job!

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 16, 2007)

Gold photos don't usually show true color so, it's hard to tell. To me, the gold on the piece on the right looks much, much heavier than the left one. The right one is more matte and has great color, both of which are often indications of thick gold. The left one has terrible color and it looks so thin that it's brightness is due to the bright nickel underneath the gold. On the older, thicker stuff, you often find gold directly over copper, without the bright nickel layer. These are generalities and there are exceptions.

I don't know what they use as a gold substitute on jewelry. If metallic, it would HAVE to be a copper alloy. Any copper alloy without a clear coat would have to tarnish or turn green except maybe aluminum bronze, which is yellow, looks nothing like gold, and wont plate. If non-metallic, it would probably be super shiny and really be off color.

Nothing yellow I can think of will damage the stripper and almost nothing on earth could be damaging to AR. The sulfuric is so strong that it becomes saturated with only minute amounts of base metals dissolved in it.


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## toadiesop (Apr 19, 2007)

FILTERING!!!!!!

That's an 8" filter setup... lookin' good so far...


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 19, 2007)

Looking great.


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## lazersteve (Apr 19, 2007)

Toadie,

Looks great. Be sure you rinse the black powder throughly so you don't end up with and base metals in the product. The rinses should come thru clear and without a trace of color. Are you going to redissolve the gold and precipitate again?

Steve


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## toadiesop (Apr 20, 2007)

Yeah, I plan on saving it all up and throwing it in AR.


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## austexjwlry (Jun 15, 2007)

Toadiesop

Is that a metal strainer in your photo? My plastic spaghetti strainers hold up pretty good! Thank you for posting your pictures as I have yet to see Steve's videos. The pictures of the molds really helped also.

Thanks
Wayne


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## toadiesop (Jun 15, 2007)

Huh? Don't look at me like a teacher!! :shock: :lol: 

HAHAHA!! I'm just a nOOb too!!! But yes, they are metal. They must be stainless steel. You have to see Steve's videos before you do anything more.

You'll save yourself a lot of headaches. Trust me. I would not have been able to do what I did there SAFELY had it not been for his help.

This post seems like soooo long ago. That's how far I feel I've come thanks to this forum. (in 3 or 4 months)

yet another example of outdated information (on my part asking questions that are now irrelevant)


Just watch Steve's vids, and then search for "peroxide" or "h202" and all will be revealed.


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## lazersteve (Jun 15, 2007)

If you want to take some shortcuts to finding good posts, go to the General Chat section and check out the links in my Guide to the Forum.

Here's a link to help you find the guide:

Guide to the Forum

The guide is fully clickable.

Have fun with it!

Steve


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## austexjwlry (Jun 15, 2007)

todiesop

But you guys are teachers, the best I've ever seen on this subject!

Thank you all
Wayne


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## lazersteve (Jun 15, 2007)

Wayne said:


> as I have yet to see Steve's videos



I'm working on converting the videos to a format I can publish to Adobe files. 

Steve


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## austexjwlry (Jun 28, 2007)

Goldsilverpro

I made a 22ga copper cathode from sheet, just cut it to length and width and bent it to shape with fingers. I had some fluffy black stuff build up on cathode but didn't seem to affect action in cell. Wipes off easilly with plastic spoon in or out of cell. Cathode seems to be holding up very well. I am also using the copper sheet for anode contact strip as well.

I had some brass window screen from home depot left over from another project. I made a single layer brass screen basket about 4" long which works great, but would be better doubled so pins wouldn't try to fall through. The brass leached to copper appearance in a couple of minutes. I used several alligator clip jumpers from outside of basket to copper anode contact strip for supporting outside edge of basket with the added bonus of voltage being supplied there also.

I used an alligater clip jumper held by hand to touch and apply voltage to any spots on pins still showing gold. Worked very well on cut up sections of gold plated 3mm gold chain and several tough spots with heavier plating on larger plated pendants.

I'm using a 12volt/10amp battery charger without a 6volt switch, using it as is at 12volts. Using roto drain cleaner diluted slightly from higher strength as per your instruction.

I have some 22ga mild steel sheet from hardware store but haven't tried your mild steel sheet cathode recomendation yet.

Just wanted you to know I'm really listening to your great advice!

Wayne


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## austexjwlry (Jun 28, 2007)

Have only run for about 4hrs total, notice surface oxidation which is easily removed with steel wool or light scraping. In second picture you can see crud buildup on cathode, which easily wipes off with plastic spoon as it is not really adhered to copper surface. Ran about 1/4lb mixed pins at this point.

I plan on using spent copper cathodes and anodes, contact strips to add to stock pot as metal precipitant,

Wayne


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## rust_nvr_sleeps (Jul 20, 2007)

Toadiesop, try hooking up a multimeter in serial with your cell circuit. I just got mine up and running and it works great to measure the Amp draw.


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## aflacglobal (Aug 8, 2009)




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## Gold Trail (Aug 22, 2009)

well, i build my cell today, like toadies and steves. works like a charm. Absolutely perfect.

will SS mesh work for a basket? 

Ryan


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