# Pennsylvania laws and regulations for a hobbyist refiner?



## dfrog1983 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm trying to find information on the regulations for a hobbyist in PA and what permits I may need unfortunately all I'm finding is the stuff needed for processes of quantities larger then I will handle as a hobbyist.....?


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## niteliteone (Sep 12, 2013)

Here in California, home of the Most strict EPA regulations, I was advised by the EPA to follow industry standard exhaust and waste standards to the best of my ability. The regulations are listed on their web site.
Their is NO permit for "Hobbyist" refiners. You are either a refiner or a hobbyist and as a hobby their is no permits or regulations required other than don't violate EPA regulations. 
If they by chance show up to investigate what you are doing, show them what you are doing to meet their regulations on discharging waste and fumes and they will usually let it continue unless you are Not complying with EPA regulations.

Do make a fume scrubber and use it whenever you produce toxic fumes.
Do make a fume hood and be sure it does not exceed the allowed output of EPA regulated fumes, which are quite low, but based on a 24hr measurement, not a 30 minute reaction output.
Do pay attention to where your exhaust air travels and don't annoy or endanger the neighbors with your exhaust.
Do remove toxic compounds from your spent solutions, then neutralize them properly before disposal.
Do properly dispose of all waste as per county regulations.

Most importantly, *DO NOT* tell others what you are doing and where you are doing it. :shock: 

Most of my family works in law enforcement and code enforcement for the county where I live and have pointed out what actions I should not do, to be able to refine as a "Hobby" and stay out of trouble.
The only thing I cannot find a work around for is the Mandate in Obamacare to report any and all transactions over $600 to the IRS. This mandate is currently on hold waiting for implementation of the "affordable care act", but IS law that will be enforced sooner or later.

Hope this helps.


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## chlaurite (Sep 12, 2013)

niteliteone said:


> The only thing I cannot find a work around for is the Mandate in Obamacare to report any and all transactions over $600 to the IRS.


Don't mistake that as similar to a CTR under the Bank Secrecy act... The $600 reporting threshold *only* applies to issuing 1099s to your contractors and suppliers, and even then only if you plan to claim it as an expense on your taxes - And primarily, this applies to *business* expenses; just about everything we mere humans can buy (that we can claim on our taxes) for over $600 _already_ comes with a document trail a mile long.

You don't need to tell Obama every time you pay the rent, buy a riding mower, or fill the heating oil tank (well, that last one probably doesn't apply in CA  ). You don't even need to tell him about spending a few grand a year on the lawn care service, _as long as_ you don't claim it on your taxes. On the flip side of that, though, any time _you_ find a way to make over $600 a year from a single source, lucky you, expect a 1099 for your effort. Key phrases there, "$600 a year" and "single source" - Shop around.

Ever wonder why so many tradesmen offer a "cash discount"? Make no mistake, they've built enough of their markup into their prices to deal with a few percent for processing plastic.


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## niteliteone (Sep 12, 2013)

chlaurite said:


> Don't mistake that as similar to a CTR under the Bank Secrecy act... The $600 reporting threshold *only* applies to issuing 1099s to your contractors and suppliers, and even then only if you plan to claim it as an expense on your taxes - And primarily, this applies to *business* expenses; just about everything we mere humans can buy (that we can claim on our taxes) for over $600 _already_ comes with a document trail a mile long.
> 
> You don't need to tell Obama every time you pay the rent, buy a riding mower, or fill the heating oil tank (well, that last one probably doesn't apply in CA  ). You don't even need to tell him about spending a few grand a year on the lawn care service, _as long as_ you don't claim it on your taxes. On the flip side of that, though, any time _you_ find a way to make over $600 a year from a single source, lucky you, expect a 1099 for your effort. Key phrases there, "$600 a year" and "single source" - Shop around.
> 
> Ever wonder why so many tradesmen offer a "cash discount"? Make no mistake, they've built enough of their markup into their prices to deal with a few percent for processing plastic.


This was told to me by "Fresno Coin Gallery" where I sell my refined gold. Any transaction or culmination of transactions over $600 must be reported. This was further re-enforced by the 2 scrap yards where I sell the rest of my metals. This was in all the news outlets last Sept. 2012 when they announced the delay in implementing it.
We will not be able to fly under the radar once this is implemented, like we do now, unless we don't sell our recovered scrap This ACA has a lot of bad things that will soon surprise all of us.


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## chlaurite (Sep 12, 2013)

niteliteone said:


> This was told to me by "Fresno Coin Gallery" where I sell my refined gold. Any transaction or culmination of transactions over $600 must be reported. This was further re-enforced by the 2 scrap yards where I sell the rest of my metals.


In both those cases, they have interpreted the new regulations as as *you* counting as an "unincorporated independent contractor" of theirs (as a supplier of goods). They have done so incorrectly:


Only filed for payments made for services and the like, and is explicitly exempt from buying of merchandise.
Scrap yards, as of present, DO NOT FILE a 1099 for customers who sell them metal scrap, as it is ”merchandise.”
...And...

In addition, some business-related payments do not have to be reported on Form 1099-MISC, although they may be taxable to the recipient. These include
payments to corporations (except for incorporated lawyers)
payments for merchandise, telephone, freight, storage, and similar items, and

So no, they really don't need to ding you for a 1099. 8) 

Note, though, that gold and silver specifically fall under an entirely different set of rules than the new Obamacare 1099 crap, but for the most part, US-issued coinage counts as exempt. As for what we do around _here_ on the forum... Well, not so much.


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## niteliteone (Sep 13, 2013)

chlaurite said:


> niteliteone said:
> 
> 
> > This was told to me by "Fresno Coin Gallery" where I sell my refined gold. Any transaction or culmination of transactions over $600 must be reported. This was further re-enforced by the 2 scrap yards where I sell the rest of my metals.
> ...


I don't understand why you have chosen to disagree with my original post :roll: 
But the links you have posted have only re-enforced exactly what I said above :shock:
You are the one that inserted variables that have nothing to do with what I was talking about :shock:
So now show where I was wrong in that we must report any transactions over $600 dealing with this ""For Profit"" venture we are involved with. Not some unrelated variables you pulled out of your head.


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## chlaurite (Sep 13, 2013)

niteliteone said:


> I don't understand why you have chosen to disagree with my original post


Sorry, I didn't really mean to get into an argument over it, I *agree* with 99% of your post. You mentioned "The only thing I cannot find a work around for is the Mandate in Obamacare to report any and all transactions over $600 to the IRS", however, and I figured I might save you a bit of hassle by clearing up some all-too-common misinformation.




niteliteone said:


> So now show where I was wrong in that we must report any transactions over $600 dealing with this ""For Profit"" venture we are involved with. Not some unrelated variables you pulled out of your head.


Three reasons (which my linked citations support - Not merely randomness "pulled out of my head"):
Normal (non-PM) scrap doesn't count for a 1099 because it counts as specifically exempted "merchandise".
"We" count as the sellers, not the buyers and don't need to report _anything_, just pay our taxes due.
Non-coin Gold and silver *do* get you a 1099, but _not_ because of Obamacare.

Peace - Feel free to disregard this, but you do yourself a disservice to accept any unnecessary 1099s.


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## butcher (Sep 13, 2013)

I have no clue as to what these new laws will mean or how they will affect us later, I do enjoy reading the discussion above.
I guess I will learn later, hopefully not the hard way.


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## niteliteone (Sep 13, 2013)

chlaurite said:


> Three reasons (which my linked citations support - Not merely randomness "pulled out of my head"):
> Normal (non-PM) scrap doesn't count for a 1099 because it counts as specifically exempted "merchandise".
> "We" count as the sellers, not the buyers and don't need to report _anything_, just pay our taxes due.
> Non-coin Gold and silver *do* get you a 1099, but _not_ because of Obamacare.
> ...


No argument here, only peaceful banter. 8) 
I don't know what state you do business in, but here in California it's a $10,000 fine and up to 1 year in jail, for each violation if one gets caught buying or selling Non-ferrous metals as scrap on a regular basis without a specific business license and approval with back-ground check from the sheriffs dept. State law, not federal.

1. Only *personal non-income related purchases or sales* are exempt, any merchandise (or scrap) used for income *IS* reportable whether buying or selling. State and local laws in many states also mandate this.
2. If I sell something I am a seller. If I buy something I am a buyer. Like most members here I pay for most of what I process, as I no longer toll refine.
3. What is this forum about ???
We deal with gold, silver and PGM's, all of which is required to be reported if we sell, as My above post was dealing with. You are the one that brought in other items, I was addressing the OP's concerns over "refining" nothing else.

As far as the lower reporting limit, that was and is specifically in Obamacare. 
IRS regulations used to be all transactions over $10,000. 
The Patriot act quietly lowered it to $5,000 as a means of tracking terrorists. (LOL) 
Then the Affordable Care Act lowered the reporting level to $600 set to start in 2012 but IS delayed due to politics and the repeal of some provisions, but is set to be implemented when the ACA is finally implemented. Many provisions of the law were repealed, but many affecting what we do related to PM's weren't, which was the sole purpose to include this above.
My credit union has been reporting all cash deposits or withdrawals over $600 since 2012. All members were sent a notice of this before they started and the notice specifically named the ACA as the cause of the reporting.



> but you do yourself a disservice to accept any unnecessary 1099s


I receive 3 - 1099's each year related to this hobby/income, as required by state and federal laws.
1 from where I sell my PM's, 1 from where I sell my ferrous metals and 1 from where I sell my non-ferrous metals. 
If they were not required to provide them, do you think they would spend the money to provide them ???
I would be doing myself a disservice to Not accept and report them. 

PS. I've been doing this since 1994 as a for profit hobby and have yet to be audited for foolishly Not reporting income that is tracked by local, state and federal agencies. 
Google California's laws on recycling / scrapping All metals for a better understanding of what I am talking about.


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## pgms4me (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks for this discussion,Glad i dont live in Ca. They have some tough laws,mostly brought about because of the theft of copper and catalytic converters. Scrap yards here in Maine dont have to report anything. they tried to stiffen things up from copper thefts ,but all they are supposed to do is record the vehicle license plate number to keep with their purchase records. I have not sold any of my pgms as of yet,however all of most of my computer and recycling items come from the local scrap yard. I dont actually purchase them. the amount I take is weighed,and then given a per pound price value and recorded on a slip. I then take the items home and when I am done, i bring back the various ferrous and non ferrous metals and their buying prices for what I return is taken off my slip. Its a complete trade. No cash involved. This works good for me and they like it too. Thats the hobby part- However, the good stuff I can sell on ebay adds up to quite a bit and i do get e 1099 from paypal and file taxes on that amount.


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