# Good Score!



## Long Shot (Jul 5, 2014)

Hey everyone,

Ya know, it is not often that one gets a real good deal from a pawn shop, they are usually quite sharp about what something is worth. Today I dropped into a new one in my town and they had 23 pre 1967 Canadian 50 cent pieces - these are 80% silver. The attendant was on her cell phone with a girlfriend and I just looked around a bit. When she became available I asked her about them and she said $1.00 a piece. One thing about getting older is that one gets a little cagey so I asked her to spread them out so I could look at them. After containing myself for a few minutes I said ok, I'll take them all. This is how this boils down - each one weighs 11.7 g, at 80% that works out to 9.36 g Ag, times 23 equals 6.92 ozt of silver for $23 Cnd. AWESOME!


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## GotTheBug (Jul 5, 2014)

Nice one! Providence shineth upon you my friend.


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## macfixer01 (Jul 5, 2014)

I hope she was the boss or the boss's wife, otherwise she'll probably be looking for another job?


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## samuel-a (Jul 6, 2014)

Did you confirm it is really 80% Ag?


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## Irons (Jul 6, 2014)

samuel-a said:


> Did you confirm it is really 80% Ag?



Think they may be Chinese knockoffs, Sam?


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## samuel-a (Jul 6, 2014)

Well... you know...
If somethig is too good to be true...


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## Long Shot (Jul 6, 2014)

Well Guys,

macfixer01 - I think she is the wife by the way she talked and that was the price in the computer so it would be hard to fire her based on that, she just called them up and that is what they were in there for.

samuel-a - They are authentic, Canadian coins of various years. I've seen enough of them to know, they are not shiny new, exhibit normal wear and tarnish. They also have a bunch of uncirculated, no longer in circ paper bills there as well and it looks like they may have bought a collection from a sale or perhaps somebody has come in with an estate. This vintage of coins are well known worldwide to be 80% Ag, the questionable period is 1967 where early in the year they were still 80% but sometime during the year they changed to 50% (and one can see that difference as well as hear it if you drop it on a hard surface) then in 1968 went to nickel.

Irons - If they are Chinese knock offs the Chinese went to elaborate measures to make them look like the real, circulated thing. I believe them to be real as I have a collection of pre 67 Cnd silver coins and they exhibit a certain appearance which would be hard to duplicate and hardly worth the effort for a measly $23 bucks, IMHO. Also, my scale says 11.7 grams and is in line with this http://www.coinscan.com/technical/canasp.html at 11.66 grams.


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## macfixer01 (Jul 6, 2014)

Long Shot said:


> Well Guys,
> 
> macfixer01 - I think she is the wife by the way she talked and that was the price in the computer so it would be hard to fire her based on that, she just called them up and that is what they were in there for.
> 
> ...




I really hope you made the score that you think you did, I'm just saying though that something doesn't add up? The Chinese ARE making fake silver and gold coins with simulated wear to appear old. Until you've verified their weight, dimensions, and diamagnetic properties against known good silver coins, you don't know what you really have? You should watch some of the better Youtube videos on detecting fake silver coins. Fakes which are the correct weight are always slightly thicker. Even for non-magnetic fakes, sliding them past a rare earth magnetic will exhibit differences from the way real silver acts. I realize your scale may just be slightly off but circulated coins would never weigh more than when they left the mint, unless visibly caked with grime perhaps? As the saying goes, not my circus - not my monkeys. I'd do further checking if they were mine though.


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## Long Shot (Jul 6, 2014)

Well Mac, to quote your sig line "I guess I may being having a happy childhood" at 52. My apologies to you, Irons and Sam because I think I may have been taken - only $23 bucks but all the same. I did not have my loop or scale or digital vernier with me at the time and what I have found based on your insight is that these coins vary somewhat in dimensions and weight. What I am wondering is when you say the thickness isn't right what exactly do you mean? Most of these are right around 2 mm but there are only a few that are exactly that. I got out my jewelry scale and found that the weights vary a fair bit - from 11.48 to 11.79 and as you say, they shouldn't be much different unless very dirty or worn, neither of which are true. As a matter of fact most of them appear to be damn near mint and if they are fake, they did a very good job, I mean very good - under the loop they look as one would expect. I also checked them with a magnet and they are not but I do not have a rare earth available. I mentioned I have a collection of silver Cnd coins but one thing I don't have in that collection is a 50 cent piece so doing a ping test isn't possible at the moment. I looked into a few Youtube videos but didn't find anything related to these specific coins. One thing I need to get is the proper acid testing solutions to be sure now and in the future.

You fellows are obviously wise to this and I have to ask one simple question that maybe you won't be able to answer - how is there any profit in making these for the Chinese? If they are fake, fine, but the cost of making different year and insignia dies to such an excellent degree, using a metal that so closely resembles silver (which, BTW, what is it), producing them, getting them shipped over here, distributing them and perpetrating the fraud surely doesn't make it worthwhile at a dollar apiece? I can suspect that perhaps they make way more than that when the fraud goes well and perhaps my supposed unknowing pawn shop doesn't know they are fakes either but one has to wonder. It makes me wonder about the status of those paper bills they have at that shop. Are you folks aware of any scam on them as well? I know this is a metal forum but if ya'll know about these coins then maybe you also know about paper currency fraud as well? It would be interesting to know. Anyway, thank you guys for getting involved in this and if they are fakes, lesson learned and I won't be fooled again.

Jeff B


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## solar_plasma (Jul 7, 2014)

One can easily be cheated while buying, but once you are at home, measuring, weighing, ping testing, searching the net, you get a feeling for if those are fakes. After all what you have told, I would give it a 95% chance they are real. Good fakes would probably have gone for more than one dollar.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 7, 2014)

If I had no chemicals to test, I would make one of those coins shiny, maybe even hone it a little bit and stick it into a boiled egg for some minutes. If it gets black by sulfide, it is most likely silver. Not necessary to say, that this would destroy the collectors value. :lol:


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## macfixer01 (Jul 7, 2014)

Long Shot said:


> Well Mac, to quote your sig line "I guess I may being having a happy childhood" at 52. My apologies to you, Irons and Sam because I think I may have been taken - only $23 bucks but all the same. I did not have my loop or scale or digital vernier with me at the time and what I have found based on your insight is that these coins vary somewhat in dimensions and weight. What I am wondering is when you say the thickness isn't right what exactly do you mean? Most of these are right around 2 mm but there are only a few that are exactly that. I got out my jewelry scale and found that the weights vary a fair bit - from 11.48 to 11.79 and as you say, they shouldn't be much different unless very dirty or worn, neither of which are true. As a matter of fact most of them appear to be damn near mint and if they are fake, they did a very good job, I mean very good - under the loop they look as one would expect. I also checked them with a magnet and they are not but I do not have a rare earth available. I mentioned I have a collection of silver Cnd coins but one thing I don't have in that collection is a 50 cent piece so doing a ping test isn't possible at the moment. I looked into a few Youtube videos but didn't find anything related to these specific coins. One thing I need to get is the proper acid testing solutions to be sure now and in the future.
> 
> You fellows are obviously wise to this and I have to ask one simple question that maybe you won't be able to answer - how is there any profit in making these for the Chinese? If they are fake, fine, but the cost of making different year and insignia dies to such an excellent degree, using a metal that so closely resembles silver (which, BTW, what is it), producing them, getting them shipped over here, distributing them and perpetrating the fraud surely doesn't make it worthwhile at a dollar apiece? I can suspect that perhaps they make way more than that when the fraud goes well and perhaps my supposed unknowing pawn shop doesn't know they are fakes either but one has to wonder. It makes me wonder about the status of those paper bills they have at that shop. Are you folks aware of any scam on them as well? I know this is a metal forum but if ya'll know about these coins then maybe you also know about paper currency fraud as well? It would be interesting to know. Anyway, thank you guys for getting involved in this and if they are fakes, lesson learned and I won't be fooled again.
> 
> Jeff B




I hadn't mentioned the ping test since it's a bit subjective if just using the human ear, but that too can be a quick test and fakes won't ring the same high pitch or for as long a time. It would be best if you had a real coin there to compare the sound with though. Solar - Even the fakes usually have a surface plating of real silver so your egg (sulfide) test wouldn't tell you anything. If you didn't have a caliper to measure with then holding a fake edge-to-edge alongside a real half dollar you'd see the fakes are a bit thicker IF the counterfeiter has tried to match the weight of a real coin? If they haven't bothered to match the weight then the coin may actually have the correct dimensions. That's why both dimensions and weight need to be checked. Certainly American silver dollars are a more common item to fake for the Chinese. They are faking all types of coins now though, even their own Chinese coins. Something one expert pointed out could likely result in a life sentence if the counterfeiter were caught, yet they're still doing it so there must be enough profit? Putting old stories about working for a bowl of rice a day aside, It's hard for us in the USA or Canada to imagine what would or would not be worth faking for someone living in China?

As far as whether the pawn shop knew they were fakes, I would have to assume the answer is yes. If they thought the coins were real they'd have been asking a price commensurate with their silver or numismatic value (whichever was higher). Whether they'd take them back since you weren't told they were fakes depends upon the integrity of the owner, however that seems to already be in question? The rare earth magnets for testing are fairly common anymore in some surplus or hardware stores, or on Ebay. One common source for them is from scrapped out hard drives. I see one youtube video I recommended before is gone, but here are a few other videos you may find interesting:

http://youtu.be/NgSXg-WOEVY
http://youtu.be/oQmjnlvhdp0
http://youtu.be/enBD3GsIaJU


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## solar_plasma (Jul 7, 2014)

> Even the fakes usually have a surface plating of real silver so your egg (sulfide) test wouldn't tell you anything.



Right. That's why I said to hone it down, ...rasp, file whatever, just to expose what under beneath the surface. Should have made this more clear.


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## justinhcase (Jul 7, 2014)

The fastest and easiest way I have found to tell is hold the coin the right way up facing you (head's or tails' it makes no difference.)If when you turn the coin to the flip side it is not the right way up again it is defiantly a knock off.
Apart from just to nice a silver finish to have been stamped,(only top notch silver smiths plat silver on top of silver for a prefect finish and not coin or bullion producers.) 
I do not know why the chines insist on producing them and even let them do production of there own currency all under the license of "Collectable souvenir" which is mad.
So I think the little inaccuracy like misaligned stamps and making them to thick are a way for the producers to sail close-halle to the counterfeiting regulations.
So any one with a calipers should be able to spot them very easily with out the need to test.
Are they not worth more intact a coin has to be very beaten up before I digest it.
Bar's will never appreciate with age but even coin's that are only worth scrap value to day will be much more desirable in the future as long as you arrest any further desegregation.
They make great little trade token's for barter and quite a collection only takes up a little space so I would not file unless they are already beyond recognition..


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## Long Shot (Jul 7, 2014)

Guys, this has been buggin' me bad since yesterday. Thanks Mac for those links, on top of those they led me into others and the one I have included at the bottom is pretty detailed. The one from Nashville Coin is very interesting with the rare earth magnet slide - we have a store about 50 minutes away from me that sells those pretty cheap and I am going to pick up a bunch the next time I am in Kingston and build one of those rigs, that seems like a good, non-destructive test. Between the posted YouTube video and the other link attached I have determined some specs for these coins, i.e. these coins can be out of tolerance from the mint by +/- 1 % so at 11.66 g they could be 11.78 or 11.54 as new. I am assuming that spec also applies to dimension as well so diameter is supposed to be 29.72mm so could be 30.02 or 29.42 and thickness at 2.00 mm could be 2.02 to 1.98. That video also cites that these coins could be out of tolerance as much as 5% due to even moderate wear. That fact right there makes me feel a lot better. And the really unique thing is that 50 cent coins were not and are not used very much here in Canada - there is even an urban legend that says the mint stopped making them and that is based on the odd fact that a lot of Canadians have never even seen one and some merchants won't take them for the same reason. When I was a young lad with a paper route one particular customer always gave me a 50 cent piece as a tip - thing is I remember them as always being the nickel version, ya just don't see a lot of these around.

So all of that said I decided to take four random coins from this lot out of the box tonight after work and check the specs - I called them A,B,C,D. Here are the results:

A - 11.736 g, 29.85 mm dia, 2.02 mm thick
B - 11.580, 29.72, 2.02
C - 11.797, 29.75, 2.02
D - 11.679, 29.73, 2.03

Oddly enough, these all fall within the tolerances mentioned above. I also watched three different examples of the "ring" test and each one of these ring sweet and sustain well. I have included two photos, A&B, C&D. As mentioned, I do have other Cnd silver and the appearance of 0.800 silver and sound when you drop them on a hard surface, to me, is kind of a tell tale. Maybe I am in denial. I really want to try the rare earth thing on them, if that proves out then maybe I got the deal I think I did. If I have time I will go through all of them and check all dimensions and weights but I'll be a little more convinced if they all pass the "magnet test". One other comment - the inverse and the obverse line up, no stagger or offset! Yaaaeh!

http://www.coinsandcanada.com/coins-prices.php?coin=50-cents-1964&years=50-cents-1953-2010

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR0HyOgXDsU


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## Anonymous (Jul 7, 2014)

OP

Good luck to you mate and have fun refining these. Whatever the outcome you took the shot and spent all of $23. I don't see the loss either way.

Those who don't take risks never get anywhere.


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## Long Shot (Jul 7, 2014)

Thanks Spaceships, I agree about taking a risk on $23 bucks and I don't know why I'm so wound about this. I think I'm right I guess. I spend more than $23 on beer in a week!


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## Long Shot (Jul 7, 2014)

Maybe part of it is that your sig line pretty much describes my attitude.


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## Shark (Jul 7, 2014)

I have bought several U.S. coins of the silver variety at face value. It doesn't happen very often no doubt. But occasionally strange things do come about. A while back I picked up several of the Peace variety and a few of the Morgan type silver dollars in a convenience store because the manager thought a clerk had taken in fake money. When I ask about them she offered them at face value so she wouldn't get in trouble. That time I got 6 silver dollars, 4 half dollars, two quarters and 5 dimes. Last year I got the same deal from another store because the store wouldn't take them, again claiming they were fake. The older gentleman who brought them in needed the money for gas to visit a grandchild in the hospital, and offered them to me at face value. I payed his $40 gas bill and gave him another $20. In exchange I got 5 silver dollars, 8 quarters and 16 dimes from that deal. Extremely rare, Yes, impossible, No. Hope you find that everyone of them is real, and you did have a sweet lucky streak. Good Luck!


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## Long Shot (Jul 7, 2014)

Awesome Shark - yes, sometimes the stars do align, thank you and I hope it is sweet too just for the sake of it!


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