# new source for sodium nitrate



## au-artifax (Jan 30, 2014)

Well, I had some time to kill, so tonight I attempted to pursue one potential source containing three chemicals we as refiners might use at some point. Please don't think I am nuts from the get-go, it actually worked out.

Tonight it is all about Crystal Drain Opener.

First, lets explore the ingredients and their purpose.

We have of course the NaOH, and it's purpose in crystal drain cleaner is to eat away at fats and sludges, and also it works with two other ingredients serving other functions.

Next we have usually either aluminum or calcium chips. Their purpose is to create heat, but also (which is why aluminum is used normally), to create hydrogen. The hydrogen acts as a natural churning divice and to react with a third ingredient to create ammonia.

So the third ingredient is NaNO3. It creates ammonia, along with the hydrogen produced, and each little nitrate during it's nano secong transition acts like an acid before giving up it's nitrogen atom. Also it absorbs the hydrogen which could pose an explosive hazard.

A fourth ingredient sodium carbonate or bicarbonate keeps everything from sticking together, considering NaNO3 likes to atract moisture.

So most of the chemicals work in dual capacities with the others.




Although seemingly impossible to separate the materials, I came up with a way, or ways.


First is the bulk of the separation. Fortunately most sodium nitrate comes in nicely rounded prills as and ingredient and the other ingredients are not. Using a large length of corregated cardboard it was easy to separate the materials as I watched all the prills kindly roll on down the slightly slanted course. The other materials where not round so for the most part just sat there. The only exception was the aluminum shot which 50% stayed and the other half rolled iut with the NaNO3. 

So next, I had to separate the aluminum from the two sorted batches. For the NaNO3 it was as easy as dissolving it all in water and saving the aluminum pellets. You cannot keep the aluminum in the NaNO3 during any process that I know of.

For the lye though it was a little more involved. I had to dissolve the NaOH in methanol or ethanol, save the aluminum pellets, then eveporate off the alcohol.


But, after all is said and done, from a 2 lb container of crystal drain opener I ended up with a three quarters of a pound NaNO3, about three ounces of aluminum pellets, and just under a pound and a half of lye.


Thanks for listening. This was a fun project, but I would of course recommend the standard eye protection, gloves, and a filter mask. There will be some non-visible dust floating around as well as small particles of caustic material transfering to you and your surroundings.

G'night all.


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## butcher (Jan 31, 2014)

I am a bit confused as to what you are making here, or what the goal is.


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## butcher (Jan 31, 2014)

After being puzzled about what you were talking about it, or what you you were trying to do chemically with NaOH, aluminum, calcium, hydrogen, ammonia, and looking at the different chemical reactions these would form, after scratching my head several times on this.

I think I understand now, that you had sodium hydroxide drain cleaner which used aluminum and sodium nitrate in them, and you were talking about trying to separate these three dry ingredients in your brand of drain cleaner, to get each of these chemical ingredients out of the powder.


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## rickbb (Jan 31, 2014)

So, including your time to do all this was it economical as opposed to just buying sodium nitrate outright?

And what is the purity of the sodium nitrate when finished?


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## etack (Jan 31, 2014)

Its a bit like buying trail mix to get the M&Ms. Just buy the M&Ms.

If you go to a garden store and look for nitrate of soda you will save yourself some time and it is safer too.

Eric


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## butcher (Jan 31, 2014)

Drain cleaners like Draino can also use sodium chloride NaCl along with the ingredients you listed above, NaCl and NaNO3 if mixed with an acid could dissolve some gold.

Sodium nitrate if you can not find it locally you can order it for your garden.
It would be easier than trying to separate the salt from the pepper.


http://www.maconfeedandseed.com/nitrate-of-soda.html


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 31, 2014)

It is often labeled "Nitrate of Soda" in the gardening section


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## resabed01 (Jan 31, 2014)

etack said:


> If you go to a garden store and look for nitrate of soda you will save yourself some time and it is safer too.
> Eric




If it were only that easy, some of us don't have that option. I searched high and low for some form of nitrates and came back empty. It was actually easier for me to buy nitric acid even with all the hoops I had to jump through to get it.

Thanks for posting this, i'm sure some find it useful.


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## rewalston (Jan 31, 2014)

resabed01 said:


> etack said:
> 
> 
> > If you go to a garden store and look for nitrate of soda you will save yourself some time and it is safer too.
> ...


You're lucky resabed, I'm in Ontario and have struck out on both. I can get the sodium nitrate from Amazon.ca but nitric acid is a no go anywhere I've checked because they want business licenses.

Rusty


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## etack (Jan 31, 2014)

rewalston said:


> resabed01 said:
> 
> 
> > etack said:
> ...




Check out hydroponic gardeners it is used as a Ph balancer and to add nitrate into the water. nitric acid I mean not nitrate of soda.

Eric


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## bmgold2 (Jan 31, 2014)

You might try a pottery supply company if there are any around you. Some things might be found at a hardware or big box chain store if you read the labels. Maybe a swimming pool or spa store? I'd suggest researching and learning what the brand name (generic name) is for whatever product you want instead of asking for the chemical name. Nitrate of Soda instead of sodium nitrate. Muriatic Acid instead of Hydrochloric Acid. Could save getting questioned about your purpose for wanting it.

Here's are some links about setting up a home science lab

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/how-to-set-up-your-chemistry-laboratory/

http://www.csun.edu/science/ref/equipment/acquisition/common.htm

Couldn't find part 1
http://makezine.com/setting-up-a-home-science-lab2/

http://makezine.com/setting-up-a-home-science-lab3/

Where there's a will, there's a way as you seem to know.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 31, 2014)

bmgold2 said:


> You might try a pottery supply company if there are any around you. Some things might be found at a hardware or big box chain store if you read the labels. Maybe a swimming pool or spa store? I'd suggest researching and learning what the brand name (generic name) is for whatever product you want instead of asking for the chemical name. Nitrate of Soda instead of sodium nitrate. Muriatic Acid instead of Hydrochloric Acid. Could save getting questioned about your purpose for wanting it.
> 
> Here's are some links about setting up a home science lab
> 
> ...


That 3rd link you gave started out right, yet wrong. It talks about heat-resistant Pyrex glass measuring cups. Almost all the kitchen Pyrex, with the exception of thin Pyrex coffee pots, will not take direct heat (flame or electric hot plate) without breaking. They are heat-resistant only in indirect heat, such as in an oven.


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## au-artifax (Feb 1, 2014)

Hi and thanks to all. I did not intend to say I solved all the woes of gold refinig. I was simply trying to be creative and contribute to the experiences and knowledge base of my fellow refiners and hobbyists.

Be ing that this is a world-wide community I understand that the differences in laws and availability are staggering, so I did what any of us would do, safely, to experiment.

To answer a few qiestions, the container of crystal drain opener costed $8.48.
The NaNO3 was pure with the exception of the powder to keep the chemicals separate. What I did notice was that one pound of straight lye was $14.98 and I recover 1.5. I pounds from the two pounds of crystal drain opener. Also, if I were to get the equivilant of .5 lbs of a nitrate at the same place it's cost would be $3.38 (.25) .

The aluminum shot just plain looks cool and makes an awesome sound in a coffee tin.... sure to irritate the other half if she keeps disturbing your genious. Well, we know what we can use if for.

As far as NaCl, yes you made a valid point. Drano brand DOES use NaCl but the brand at Lowes does not.

I think I did rather good for myself. It was fun and playful in a sense, (adhering to safety guidelines), and someone may use the knowledge some day.

Must make one observation though, why did so many of you go after this new idea like a pack of wolves? Tofay I did some more thinking and research regarding the dreaded "gray sediment" I would like to share in another thread. It started as theory, I checked for any negative reactions possible, and I found lost siver there.

Have a great afternoon.


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## bmgold2 (Feb 1, 2014)

au-artifax said:


> Must make one observation though, why did so many of you go after this new idea like a pack of wolves?



My comment was just to offer other places you might check for supplies. I really like the idea of what you did. I like any idea where you can get what you need from what you can get even if it means a little extra work. This whole thing is just a hobby for me so time is not that much of a concern if I can get the job done.


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## au-artifax (Feb 1, 2014)

bmgold2 said:


> au-artifax said:
> 
> 
> > Must make one observation though, why did so many of you go after this new idea like a pack of wolves?
> ...




Thanks bmgold2. I appreciate the lead. When others say "why do all that", it is easy to infrere that others think your idea has no merit. There is Always a reason, even if that reason is the pure and simple act of discovery and exercising ones own sense of reason.

Ya wanna here something ironic and funny? I have two stoves going right now with hot nitrates in them. One is dissolving some converted gray sediment...

The other also packed eith nitrates...

I'm cooking some hot dogs for supper right now... haha.


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