# Help, no gold powder?



## Hartbar (Jul 30, 2021)

In a bit of a bind. Thanks in advance for any input.
I understand the concept on the forum of “teach a man to fish”
I’ve been reading many posts in the last month or so in an effort to learn and think I have to some extent. Encourage users to read and learn, not answer every question they have makes a lot of sense. 
I’m honestly not sure what to do from this point on with solution of dissolved gold, the filter papers and rinse off. (See pics)
I’m thinking I’ll have to cement out (if in doubt cement out) but I’m not entirely sure how that works. Copper bar, rinse cement, put back in genuine AR, precipitate..
I used an alternative to AR when dissolving some karat gold, most of the gold went into solution, some did not and when I fished it out after filtering it had a dark coating over surface, it tested similar to silver with my acids.
I did not inquart the karat gold that was a mix of 10k, 14k and 18k. I was told there was no need.
After filtering I tried to precipitate as instructions noted, nothing dropped into powder. I tried a small amount of SMB, still nothing.
That’s where I stand right now

Regards

Alternatives: MX3 and quadratic precipitant.


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## acpeacemaker (Jul 30, 2021)

Hartbar said:


> I used an alternative to AR when dissolving some karat gold, most of the gold went into solution, some did not and when I fished it out after filtering it had a dark coating over surface, it tested similar to silver with my acids.
> I did not inquart the karat gold that was a mix of 10k, 14k and 18k. I was told there was no need.



Who told you not to? Your describing passivation by silver chloride. It causes a crust to where it can no longer be or harder to penetrate to the gold. Just curious though...Are you testing your solutions with stannous?


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## galenrog (Jul 31, 2021)

My guess is SHOR. 

Time for more coffee.


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## nickvc (Jul 31, 2021)

In many cases you can avoid inquarting but you need to use AR in these cases as it’s way more aggressive than the alternatives especially if used hot, as a rule anything 14k or above will dissolve anything below that I’d advise inquarting, there are exceptions but only experience will tell you those so the advice to inquart karat scrap is good especially for newbies.


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## Hartbar (Jul 31, 2021)

Thank you all,
Galenrog is correct.. no need to inquart also.
My Stannous indicates there is gold in solution, purple black result.
How do I retrieve from this point?
I know I screwed up, but need to recover some metal.
I also have the filter from first rinse after trying to dissolve, it’s dark in color
Regards


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## Hartbar (Jul 31, 2021)

To clarify, the company that supplied the chemicals said no need to inquart


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## Palladium (Jul 31, 2021)

Who was the company...... What was the chemical?
NOT enough information!


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## acpeacemaker (Jul 31, 2021)

Palladium said:


> Who was the company...... What was the chemical?
> NOT enough information!



He had in under "Regards" in his first post so i missed it too. But its Alternatives: MX3 and quadratic precipitant.

So....Shor


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## Hartbar (Jul 31, 2021)

Palladium said:


> Who was the company...... What was the chemical?
> NOT enough information!


The company is shor, MX3 instead of AR, quadratic precipitant instead of SMB.


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## Palladium (Jul 31, 2021)

Now see i'm lost!


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## Hartbar (Jul 31, 2021)

Palladium said:


> Now see i'm lost!



What does that mean please?


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## galenrog (Jul 31, 2021)

[/quote]
The company is shor, MX3 instead of AR, quadratic precipitant instead of SMB.
[/quote]

Except that MX3 is not AR, and Quadratic Precipitant is not SMB. SHOR is yet to provide me with an MSDS on any of their chemicals that would pass an OSHA inspection.

Hartbar, please do a forum search of SHOR and iSHOR. 

Time for more coffee.


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## Hartbar (Aug 1, 2021)

Hartbar said:


> The company is shor, MX3 instead of AR, quadratic precipitant instead of SMB.



Except that MX3 is not AR, and Quadratic Precipitant is not SMB. SHOR is yet to provide me with an MSDS on any of their chemicals that would pass an OSHA inspection.

Hartbar, please do a forum search of SHOR and iSHOR. 

Time for more coffee.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I realize now that the MX3 and Quadtratic are not the same as AR or SMB. They are marketed and sold as a SAFER alternative.
This forum is all about safety after all.
I purchased the chemicals a few weeks ago, not the entire kit thankfully and didn’t see the talk about Shor on this forum until after my effort, unfortunately.
Anyway, can anyone give me some input into how I can retrieve some gold here. Advice, a link, anything.
It would be considered a fishing lesson by me.

Thank you


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## Hartbar (Aug 1, 2021)

I posted this in general chat yesterday. 

In a bit of a bind. Thanks in advance for any input.
I understand the concept on the forum of “teach a man to fish”
I’ve been reading many posts in the last month or so in an effort to learn and think I have to some extent. Encourage users to read and learn, not answer every question they have makes a lot of sense. 
I’m honestly not sure what to do from this point on with solution of dissolved gold, the filter papers and rinse off. (See pics)
I’m thinking I’ll have to cement out (if in doubt cement out) but I’m not entirely sure how that works. Copper bar, rinse cement, put back in genuine AR, precipitate..
I used an alternative to AR when dissolving some karat gold, MX3,most of the gold went into solution, some did not and when I fished it out after filtering it had a dark coating over surface, it tested similar to silver with my acids.
I did not inquart the karat gold that was a mix of 10k, 14k and 18k. I was told there was no need.
After filtering I tried to precipitate (Quadratic) as instructions noted, nothing dropped into powder. I tried a small amount of SMB, still nothing.
That’s where I stand right now

Regards

Alternatives: MX3 and quadratic precipitant. Shor


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## nickvc (Aug 1, 2021)

Posting the same post again will not get you anymore help. 
You decided to trust Shor rather than read and study here to learn what and whatnot to do.
My advice is to cement your solution with copper safely store the waste solution and to start reading here on the forum on how to refine properly.


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## Hartbar (Aug 1, 2021)

Thank you Nick,
I joined forum in May and have spent every spare minute I have reading the forum in an effort to learn what I can.
I didn’t “trust” shor, and again was not aware of an issue until after the fact.
In first post I mentioned maybe having to cement it out (if in doubt) I learnt that much I guess.
Again, I I get the “teach a man to fish” concept. Having said that I am somewhat accountable for this situation and I’m just looking for advice on getting some recovery of gold after cementing.
Thank you


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## Palladium (Aug 1, 2021)

Somebody either please explain to this man to keep these threads together or a moderator please combine this mess. Sir your problem is one continuous lot and process, keep them together in the same thread.
Following this is pissing me off! Time is money and if i have time to answer or help i don't want to chase the information to hell and back. Plus in the future new students won't have a clue what all this clutter is. The value of your questions serve no informational purpose to anyone except you. In business i charge for that information and time. It's kinda of how i make a living! Here you get it FREE! Patience is a virtue and one you better learn if you want to be successful at anything. Back to refining!


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 1, 2021)

As others have mentioned, do not double post. Posting the same information in multiple threads just makes a mess of the forum, and makes it less likely you'll get the help you're looking for.

You can read the forum rules at Board Policy-------This should be read by everyone.

I've combined the two threads you started.

Dave


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## Hartbar (Aug 1, 2021)

Ok, thank you Dave.

I’m just looking for help with my situation, that’s why I re-posted in need help.
I know I have to cement out, but from there?


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## galenrog (Aug 1, 2021)

Decant any solutions. Set solids aside. Cement solutions with copper. 

Solids remaining after your foray into foolishness should be inquarted. Proper methods can be found on this Forum and any of the many texts on the subject of recovery and refining.

Solids remaining after decanting solutions should be tested. 

Solids after cementation should be refines a few times to achieve good results.

You WILL lose some silver while recovering from your mess, and perhaps a tiny bit of gold. Get over it.

One more thing about Shor, and others of their ilk. While they MAY be purveyors of chemicals and compounds that are initially less dangerous than the standard acids and precipitants (I question this because they will not provide me with actual chemical makeup of their products), once used, these “less toxic” chemicals become hazardous waste just as much as standard acids and precipitants.

I am leaving a lot out, but my stroke addled brain does not want to play any more.

Time for more coffee.


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## Hartbar (Aug 1, 2021)

Palladium said:


> Somebody either please explain to this man to keep these threads together or a moderator please combine this mess. Sir your problem is one continuous lot and process, keep them together in the same thread.
> Following this is pissing me off! Time is money and if i have time to answer or help i don't want to chase the information to hell and back. Plus in the future new students won't have a clue what all this clutter is. The value of your questions serve no informational purpose to anyone except you. In business i charge for that information and time. It's kinda of how i make a living! Here you get it FREE! Patience is a virtue and one you better learn if you want to be successful at anything. Back to refining!


Didn’t know this was a boys club.
I’ve read some great information on here from you Palladium and hope to do so in the future.
Your anger honestly seems a little over the top, it’s refining, not curing cancer or Covid 19.
I’ve been relatively successful a t a few things in life.

Regards to all


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## Hartbar (Aug 1, 2021)

galenrog said:


> Decant any solutions. Set solids aside. Cement solutions with copper.
> 
> Solids remaining after your foray into foolishness should be inquarted. Proper methods can be found on this Forum and any of the many texts on the subject of recovery and refining.
> 
> ...


Thank you Galenrog,
That’s just what I was looking for, some excellent information, with some well deserved commentary (foray into foolishness) that made me smile.

Thank you


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## jimdoc (Aug 1, 2021)

Hartbar said:


> Palladium said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody either please explain to this man to keep these threads together or a moderator please combine this mess. Sir your problem is one continuous lot and process, keep them together in the same thread.
> ...



Just take the advice given. You are a guest here, and can be shown the door for attitude problems.
Just realize what this forum contains, and keep polite to remain here.


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## Palladium (Aug 1, 2021)

Dude! Let me explain the value of the information on this board and the time we volunteer to help people like you out. My knowledge and time has value! You make it difficult to help. What you see as anger i see as frustration. Have it your way!


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## nickvc (Aug 2, 2021)

You need to realize whatever you have been successful at in the past counts for diddly squat when it comes to recovery and refining and the people replying have and still are successful in an art you re trying to learn, we have had trained and practicing chemists who we have had to re educate to be successful at this :shock: 
My advice stands cement your solution save all the solids and cap your solution safely then download and read Hoke, free from frugals posts, until you understand what she is teaching, for karat scrap refining it’s an essential read as it covers everything you need to know, once you understand her teachings come back and post what you aim to do to get your values, if you do understand her teachings you should be good to go but as a safety net if you post we can and will critique your processes to allow you to be successful. 
You can do this it’s not overly hard once you understand the basic chemistry involved but no one has the time to hold your hand to make this happen and chances are if we did your next batch would be a failure too especially if you encounter problems you do not understand how or why it happened.
You may think we are been mean here but in honesty we are not we are trying to help but we do expect you to help yourself by doing the necessary reading and study, if you want to do this the basic chemistry is essential for success.


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## Adrian2 (Aug 2, 2021)

i feel sorry for you,

but yeah ,,read hoke's book or CW.Ammen 's book entirely then you will see how to do it next time,

but you know maybe this time it's hard for you but i'm sure you'll be successfull next time cause inside the difficulty is the ease,

finish your process and don't think about it anymore then do it again following the books method i've mentioned above ,

failure has to happen and success comes next


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## Hartbar (Aug 3, 2021)

No need to feel sorry for me Adrian, but thank you. Let it be the worst thing that happens to me.
I have been reading Hokes book the last few days. Ive referenced her book a few times in last months, but now realize the good advice on here, put the stuff away and read the entire book.
I have been giving my situation a lot of thought with the advice on here in mind. Cementing seems to be the first step, I’m about ready to try it and have attached some pics on status.
My plan (subject to change and open to critique)
I put a small amount of the solution in a smaller beaker and put some clean copper in it. Definite reaction and looks like something dropping. I’ll know when I decant or filter. I’ll try and cement the large beaker with solution, not sure if I can just stand some clean copper pieces in it, or need to suspend the pieces in some way, as shown in empty beaker, see pics.
I’m going to search forum on cementing gold from solution some more and wait for any input.

Regards


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 3, 2021)

Keep all the copper submerged in the solution when cementing. If not, the part above the solution's surface will oxidize and can drop into the solution and contaminate your cemented values.

Circulation of the solution is important to cement all the values.

Dave


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## Hartbar (Aug 3, 2021)

Thanks Dave, 
So submerge the copper, can it sit on bottom of beaker, or does it need to be suspended?
Still not sure how to address the Buchner filter papers from rinse filter.
Regards


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 3, 2021)

Better to suspend it since it provides more surface area.

Save the filters in a bag and when you have a lot of them, process them all together.

Dave


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## Hartbar (Aug 4, 2021)

I’ve looked high and low on forum for detailed process cementing my gold solution from here. 
Processes, chemical processes, technices, tutorials and I’ve searched cementing, cementation.
From Dave’s advice: the copper must be fully submerged, but best if not touching bottom of beaker. 
I posted pic of copper hanging from plastic ties, will plastic mess up process?
If there is a link to detailed instructions, please post. Thank you
Meanwhile I’ll carry on seaching


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## 1mysurveymail (Aug 5, 2021)

You never mentioned the step of de-noxxing your AR.


It seems from a million miles away that you can't drop gold because you still have excess "nitric" in solution. So IF you failed to de-nox, goto a Home Depot or Lowes, or tile store and get some "GROUT CLEANER" which should be comprised of "SULFAMIC ACID Crystals." Read the label. It generally only takes a teaspoon or so. Then your de-noxxed solution"Theoretically" might allow you to drop the gold with SMB. 

It STUNS my sensibility (and trust) that only ever on *RARE *occasions does anyone contributor explain the (apparent) necessity to DENOXX an AR batch gone wrong because SIMPLY of too much free nitric! Is this like a test, or a rite of passage, or hazing, or something equally offensive, that people fail to advise about? 

I have been experimenting with cementing onto suspended copper. Yes Au does cement, but so does a lot of copper (apparently) so your "black powder" will have to be washed thoroughly to get rid of the copper. Just FYI. Then you will have a bunch of excess (hopefully barren of Au) solution to add to your "stock pot, for some time in the distant future, when you can sort out how to get the rest of the PM's out. Hopefully, you have the advice and patience, the time, and the space to keep from disposing of your excess solutions... 

I did some Karat gold recently WITHOUT INQUARTING, it took way too much much time, temperature, and too much extra chemicals. *The ancient secret of "quartering" still has value.* I am winding up for a proper Au inquartation, with .999 silver, then using "poorman's AR" I expect a lot of pesky silver chloride, but I am prepared to deal with that eventuality. 

Nitric acid is absurdly expensive where I live, hence my use of "poorman's AR." FYI.

As many a wise wizard has said here, "don't discard any liquids, until you are SURE they are barren of whatever you are trying to recover (I paraphrase)."


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## 1mysurveymail (Aug 5, 2021)

Hartbar said:


> I’ve looked high and low on forum for detailed process cementing my gold solution from here.
> Processes, chemical processes, technices, tutorials and I’ve searched cementing, cementation.
> From Dave’s advice: the copper must be fully submerged, but best if not touching bottom of beaker.
> I posted pic of copper hanging from plastic ties, will plastic mess up process?
> ...



Some plastics do indeed get eaten by acid while trying to cement, others do not. Fishing line does, much to my chagrin.


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## Martijn (Aug 5, 2021)

1mysurveymail said:


> It STUNS my sensibility (and trust) that only ever on *RARE *occasions does anyone contributor explain the (apparent) necessity to DENOXX an AR batch gone wrong because SIMPLY of too much free nitric! Is this like a test, or a rite of passage, or hazing, or something equally offensive, that people fail to advise about?


Maybe that's because one should take care not to overshoot expensive & harmfull HNO3 to avoid getting into problems while precipitating or cementing. It's better to leave a bit of metal undigested in stead of having a bunch of nitric to denox (one X, two XX'es implies the founder of this forum, which is not nice :wink It also saves on BFRC containment measures.

Second, you can denox effectively and economically by adding more gold to the digestion, until it stops dissolving. Problem solved. No sulfamic acid needed. Never used it myself. (during my tiny hobby size operation).

@ Hartbar: there are no detailed descriptions of this "process" other than "dealing with waste" or silver cementing for the silver cell or the "When in doubt, Cement it out!" phrase.
The process is displacement of metals according the reactivity series. Stick metal in solution let reactivity deal with the rest. Add air to agitate. 
The metal that drops out first is purest. You can divide the cement into batches at any given time during cementing. 

Leaving copper sticking out of your bath, will/can introduce copper oxide in the solution, but you'll need to refine after cementing anyway. There will also be tiny pieces of copper that came loose without dissolving to displace pm's. Any other pm's will also be cemented out. So a second refine of those powders is needed anyway. 

Patience is the most important ingredient. 

Martijn.


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## Martijn (Aug 5, 2021)

One more thing: when inquarting (dirty) carat gold, you can save on nitric to inquart with lesser than high purity silver, say sterling. 
This is very economical, because you kill two birds with one stone: recovering gold for further refining, and dissolving 'dirty' silver to cement out on copper. 
In stead of having three nines fine melted with dirty gold and basically starting over again. The small percentage of copper in the dirty silver will not make much of a difference in the end result. (got this one from butcher)

So save your dirty silver or sterling for inquarting and save dirty gold and silver to denox. 

Martijn.


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## Martijn (Aug 5, 2021)

Yeah, i'm bored at work, so long posts :lol: ...correction on the last post: to denox for a client, use high purity gold or silver, so you can weigh the added gold. (Your'e not Santa)


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## Hartbar (Aug 5, 2021)

Thanks for the input Martijn and mysurvey,
I’m processing all the info slowly and reading hokes book from front cover to black. 
So the metal that drops from solution when cementing with copper will be mixed metal, anything that dissolved in solution I assume. Metals that are lower than copper in the reaction series, so will/should be gold and silver.
Hence the re refine need.
Regards


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## Hartbar (Aug 8, 2021)

Half way through Hokes book, very good read. I can see why it’s so important to read thoroughly.
On my mess up, anyone have input on what the next step is after cementing out?
I’ll have gold, silver and probably some copper after cementing, is it nitric next or AR?


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 8, 2021)

Keep reading. She'll give you the answer.

Not trying to be a jerk, but you'll gain a lot more by learning from her than if someone just gives you a quick one line answer. That will just lead you to the next question. She'll give you answers to questions you don't know you have yet.

Dave


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## Hartbar (Aug 9, 2021)

I get it Dave, teach a man to fish, and no, your not being a jerk.
I just don’t understand your position entirely?
I’ve heard on Forum, “tell us your plan and we will critique and advise”
I did that, cemented out. I’m now looking for advice and critique.
I’m told read the book.
I am half way through Hokes book, it’s 355 pages, I’m taking notes and will have to read twice I’m sure.
If users ask which way to go at a point in the process, would you have them take a shot in the dark and make a serious mistake?
Maybe this is amusing to some on here?

Respectfully


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## Palladium (Aug 9, 2021)

Your processing is not the problem sir. It's your approach and attitude!
Refining is an art just like painting artwork is and directly reflects the mind set of the artist!
Picasso didn't become great from just the first painting.

Patience!


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 9, 2021)

Hartbar said:


> I get it Dave, teach a man to fish, and no, your not being a jerk.
> I just don’t understand your position entirely?
> I’ve heard on Forum, “tell us your plan and we will critique and advise”
> I did that, cemented out. I’m now looking for advice and critique.
> ...


Hartbar, you're new to this. It's interesting and exciting. You started out without enough knowledge and made a bit of a mess. We advised you how to recover from the mess, and to put your chemicals away until you did more studying to proceed to the next step.

You say you want us to critique your plan, but you don't have a plan. Instead, you're asking us to give you the plan and tell you what to do next.

Yes, Hoke's book is long because there is much to learn. None of us have the time to rewrite it here on the forum. If I tell you to use AR next, will you know how to handle the next problem you have? If I say nitric should be next, will you know what to do after that?

If you wanted to learn to fly a plane, would you read half the book and then jump into the pilot's seat because the book was long and you really wanted to fly today?




> If users ask which way to go at a point in the process, would you have them take a shot in the dark and make a serious mistake?


No, we'd rather they follow the advice they've been given and study until they understand how to proceed. 




> Maybe this is amusing to some on here?


No, it's not amusing at all. No one on the forum gets paid to help others. This is a 100% volunteer site. We all have lives and responsibilities outside the forum. So when we give someone advice, we expect them to follow it. When we tell someone to read Hoke's book, we expect them to do it, not just half of it.

If anyone else wants to give you step by step instructions, they're free to do it. But anyone who's been here long enough to give you sound advice has probably been down that road before. I have. And when I've tried to take someone under my wing and tutor them, it has come back to bite me. When I was new here, I used to feel that the old timers were too hard on new members. Why not just answer the newb's questions? After close to ten years and thousands of posts trying to help others, I've come to understand there was wisdom to their position.

At this point, you still think you've probably cemented both gold and silver out of your solution. That tells me you're not yet ready to take the next step and start adding acids to things again. I encourage you to read: Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?. It may help you to understand my position. I don't want you to be the next casualty because I gave you a quick answer to your simple question before you were prepared to understand it.

Dave


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## Palladium (Aug 9, 2021)

Sir is the problem you have is that you have finances tied up in this that you are trying to recover expediently?
I've been there!


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## Martijn (Aug 9, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> At this point, you still think you've probably cemented both gold and silver out of your solution. That tells me you're not yet ready to take the next step and start adding acids to things again. *I encourage you to read:* Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?. It may help you to understand my position. I don't want you to be the next casualty because I gave you a quick answer to your simple question before you were prepared to understand it.
> 
> Dave



So true.. 

And the answers to your questions are in the links and advice given in earlier threads. If that doesn't make sense yet, study, learn, take notes. Keep it simple. Many new members go looking for exotic groundbreaking new processes, and waste time and get lost in this jungle. 
We use the different properties of metals to separate them. Knowledge of these properties is learning to crawl. Walking comes next..
Assuming you have and will follow our advise, and study first before diving in;
Study dealing with waste, and a hint: acquaintance tests (of silver) in Hoke' book. 
Once you think you can start these tests, and have a plan, present it here first. 
Be safe and enjoy! 
Martijn.


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## Hartbar (Aug 9, 2021)

Palladium said:


> Sir is the problem you have is that you have finances tied up in this that you are trying to recover expediently?
> I've been there!



Yes, I’d like to recover the metal. However, it’s nothing in comparison to the losses suffered by users on this Forum in the last 48 hours if there holding precious metal, in solution or any other form. The shorts did well.

I’d like to thank anyone who has taken the time to respond on this thread, I’m kind of “say it like it is” to be honest, so have at it and let’s see what sticks.

My plan after messing up using the alternative ingredients was to cement with copper as advised on here. Re-refine using AR, denox if needed, filter, then precipitate with SMB. Check for gold in solution. Decant solution, rinse with hot water, rinse with HCL. Rinse with water some more. Decant again, then dry powder and melt into bead in ceramic dish previously glazed with borax.
I have processed karat gold as described above before.
I then thought about the silver that might be in solution? My original gold had some 18k, I believe high in silver, 25%? Also some 10k. I did not inquart the original gold. It was mentioned in this post that my problem was from passive silver?
I assumed that my silver was still in solution after dissolving the original metals in the foreign chemicals and that when I cement with copper to fix mess the silver would drop with the gold.
That is why I thought maybe go with nitric first.

Regards


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 9, 2021)

Your plan is pretty sound. 

There are some issues in your understanding of silver behavior.



Hartbar said:


> I then thought about the silver that might be in solution?


Not likely. Silver is only minimally soluble in AR.




> My original gold had some 18k, I believe high in silver, 25%? Also some 10k. I did not inquart the original gold. It was mentioned in this post that my problem was from passive silver?


When items having more that about 10% silver are put in AR, the gold begins to dissolve. The silver is converted to silver chloride and forms a coating on the item that slows and eventually stops the dissolution of the gold. That's why your items didn't dissolve completely. It wasn't that silver was going into solution. It was that the silver was becoming a hard crust of silver chloride still attached to the items.




> I assumed that my silver was still in solution after dissolving the original metals in the foreign chemicals and that when I cement with copper to fix mess the silver would drop with the gold.


Nope. The silver never went into solution, except for that tiny amount I mentioned above.

Hartbar, these are all things that have been discussed extensively on the forum. Hoke's book is only a first step in learning this art. It will teach you the basics and the language of refining so you'll understand what you read on the forum. When you finish her book, start reading everything you can on the forum. We've only scratched the surface.

Dave


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## Palladium (Aug 9, 2021)

I didn't lose a penny today!
You only lose when you sell. I'll be holding mine for another day.

I had a client one time who seemed to always come up short on his gold totals. After some period of time i was ready to stop refining for him. I thought surely to god this man is thinking i'm stealing from him. When i told him how i felt about the situation he said " You don't understand "! He said, i'm retired and i take this paper money and i buy gold with it.The paper money is going down quicker than i can spend it with inflation. He said i know the numbers are going to come in short. Then he went on to explain, I'm in it for the long game. He said what you see as a loss today..... I see as a profit tomorrow!

He schooled a young refiner that day!


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## nickvc (Aug 10, 2021)

As to the price drops I suspect that the paper metal dealers are trying to force the price down as they are highly over sold and need physical due to the new rules forced on them, if the prices start to rise rapidly it’s going to be a bloodbath for them.


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## Palladium (Aug 10, 2021)

They are taking worthless paper and buying physical with it, that's why they are driving the price down.
Make no mistake they never plan on making delivery on those contracts. By this time next year this system of banking (Paper) will likely not exist! I'm already prepared. I've spent the better part of this year selling my physical assets, a couple of houses, cars, and some other stuff. With that i too have been buying silver out the wazoo! I have very little cash on hand, but plenty of food, water, and Freedom Crackers, i also built a steam engine charging system with a boiler and an 800 gallon salt water battery storage system to store the electricity. Prepare yourself people! One day here in the near future i predict even the GRF will cease to exist.
It's been great gentlemen and a wild ride knowing everyone. If i don't see you here..... I'll see you on the other side! May God bless us all!

Semper Fi !


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## Palladium (Aug 10, 2021)

I sure hope everyone is prepared for the storm that's coming. I love watching these video's of my community and how people are taking back their country and advancing the cause. I just fear though that no one is really seeing this. I've tried to help people by educating them, but i've come to realize i don't think a lot of people are going to see the waves. My hearts heavy this morning as i watch Gods creations as the sun rises and i think back to the Star Spangled Banner. Yep.... Old Glory is still waving out here! Gods still in charge! I watch as the kido's go back to school and i think of the 6 i have raised. I think of the people God has brought into my life and especially those he has removed. I think about the choices i have made that has lead to this one particular moment in time. How many rights and how many lefts did it take to get me here. I think about the jobs i have had, the businesses i have owned and all the pretty things that i thought really mattered in life. BOY! did i get that one wrong! I've been a Millionaire and i've slept under a bridge a time or too. Had it all, lost it all, gave it all away..... Those things don't matter. What matters is your humanity and the humanity of others. 

As you go about this day thank your creator for the REAL gifts we have been giving and the privilege of his grace. Those who really know me knows that my time was up a longgggg time ago. It's only by his grace that i still serve a purpose and walk this Earth. I've spent my whole life defending Freedom and Liberty, not for myself, but for the future children and grandchildren yet to come. I've seen the lands as they are laid to waste, Hell i even helped a time or two! There is a darkness on the horizon, but a glorious day on the horizon after that! There will be prosperity and a respect for life we have not seen in this world for sometime. It will be a new day as well as a new time for all of humanity. Keep your faith in God and country for America has yet to see it's demise. One more day, one more prayer, another chance to correct OUR mistakes! 
God bless us all and Semper Fi!


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 10, 2021)

Please respect forum rules and leave religion out.

Dave


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## Palladium (Aug 10, 2021)

I can respect that, but if you will notice it donates no religion only the basis of a creator.
If we can't use the word god or creator we are in bad shape. 
Even the metals and the science we use here is based on a creator. If you believe in science and we are men of science then to deny the existence of a creator would be to deny science it's self! Science and the rules that govern it proves the existence of a creator or being.

My opinion of course!


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## Martijn (Aug 11, 2021)

I'm ain't touching that one with a ten foot pole :lol:


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## Palladium (Aug 11, 2021)

I respect Dave, he's right!
Forum rules are applied equally!


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## Hartbar (Aug 14, 2021)

Still diligently reading Hokes book. Cementing went well and on hold for now.
The solids that did not dissolve, I believe there covered in silver oxide, should I inquart them to 6k?
My plan would be to use nitric, rinse then refine with AR.


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## Palladium (Aug 14, 2021)

They look pretty thin now. Put them in a beaker. Cover them with concentrated acid (AR). Take a stir rod and poke them breaking up the crust a little bit. It will let the solution in to attack the next layer of gold. Treat it like an onion with layers. You are going to put it on a light rolling boil. Heat equals rate of attack and penetration dept. After about an hour remove the watch glass and poke again with a rod to break the crust up. Repeat until all material is consumed. Save residues in separate container for later processing in silver cell. Trace gold and other metals will carry over with the silver.


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## Palladium (Aug 14, 2021)

Let me answer your other question to. If you were to melt that for inquarting at this stage there is gold chloride trapped in those resides that will vap off and you will lose it losing gold in the process. Also you would lose the silver that is a chloride.


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## Hartbar (Aug 14, 2021)

Thanks PD, I appreciate your time and advice.
Some of the solids took on a kind of charcoal feel, almost wants to crumble when you touch it?
Hope there’s some gold left in them.

Regards


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