# Best Prices for Chemicals



## viacin (Oct 2, 2008)

Does anyone have a list of websites for low priced U.S.A. chemical supliers? I'm sure this is a common question, but I didn't see any suplier lists in the search results. Sticky's list is good, but the nitric acid supliers (what I'm really looking for) are mainly UK, not selling it anymore (it would seem), or expensive. Where do you guys (and gals) buy your chemicals?

Looking for nitric acid right now, but hydrochloric acid will be needed soon as well.


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## slowerbear (Oct 3, 2008)

viacin said:


> Does anyone have a list of websites for low priced U.S.A. chemical supliers? I'm sure this is a common question, but I didn't see any suplier lists in the search results. Sticky's list is good, but the nitric acid supliers (what I'm really looking for) are mainly UK, not selling it anymore (it would seem), or expensive. Where do you guys (and gals) buy your chemicals?
> 
> Looking for nitric acid right now, but hydrochloric acid will be needed soon as well.



High Valley Chemical/Appx. $82.00 delivered cross country for 2.5L in glass bottle.


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## Husker (Oct 3, 2008)

I buy hydrochloric at Ace Hardware. Seems cheaper usually than Lowes or other box stores. Last Muriatic acid I bought was $3.29/gallon (sale). I bought 16 gallons at that time. I also buy concentrate sulphuric gallons there, for about $16. The normal price is $22, but I buy them by the case, pre-paid (talk to the store manager).

As for nitric, I use sodium nitrate and sulphuric or sodium nitrate and muriatic (for poor mans AR). The 60% nitric made with sodium nitrate and conc sulphuric works out to less than $20 a gallon (after removing the salts) and has worked wonderful in my opinion. 

Certainly not as cheap as the tech stuff that GSP and Harold talk about getting for $3-$4 a gallon, but since I have no good source for 55 gallon lots of nitric like the big boys do, my home made stuff will have to do.

$82 for 2.5 L is simply a highway theft.

H.


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## viacin (Oct 3, 2008)

you're kidding, you can get these acids at the home improvement stores? I almost *live* at Home Depot and never noticed them. Of corse, I've never looked for them either. I assume they would be in the cleaning supplies?

I've found 1 lb of sodium nitrate on ebay for about $10 total, but not sure how much this makes or at what precentage nitric acid. I need to read the cold process for making nitric acid again.


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## Anonymous (Oct 3, 2008)

Not that it is all that cheap either but you can get stump remover at lowes
4 buck a 1lb bottle, it is KNO3


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## maltfoudy (Oct 3, 2008)

should be able to find the acid in the paint department, also known as deck wash.


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## Husker (Oct 4, 2008)

Muriatic is 31% HCL. It is pretty dam cheap. Used as cleaner for concrete and also used for pool cleaning. 

Conc sulphuric is sold for drain cleaning. It usually comes in a plastic bottle, that is in a clear plastic bag (dam dangerous stuff). Most of your box hardware stores (lowes, menards, home depot) will only have 1QT bottles of sulphuric. However, I have found 1 gallons at ACE. Called Roto. It is 97% conc and works pretty darn good.

Another souce for sulphuric is battery acid (can get it in 5 gallon lots) from Napa or others (auto zone?) It is not conc, so you will have to boil out the water. But it is pretty cheap in this form, and 37% or so (if I remember correctly). However, I pay a little more for someone else to concentrate it, so I have one less dangerous step to do myself. And by buying in the case, I have dropped my cost down for a gallon to about what a quart goes for at Lowes.

Jim.


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## viacin (Oct 5, 2008)

Thanks husker for the help!

so for homemade nitric I'll need sodium nitrate + sulfuric acid (drain cleaner)

and for AR, I'll need homemade nitric + hydrochloric (concrete/pool cleaner)

is the hydrochloric concentrated enough at that rate to make AR?


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## Husker (Oct 5, 2008)

muriatic works fine to make AR.

A "poor mans" AR can be made by making a concentrated boiling water and sodium nitrate solution, and mixing that into muriatic. do a search for poor mans ar and you should easily find the recipe.

Jim.


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## viacin (Oct 7, 2008)

ty jim, I appreciate the help. This is one of my favorite posts, mainly becasue it saved me some cash  Next time I need chemicals, it's off to ACE for me, not cole-palmer.


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## viacin (Oct 7, 2008)

Thinking that it would be cheaper to buy just one bottle of 35% nitric acid than buy the equiptment and chemicals to make my own, I started looking on google. I can't find it for less than $70.71 for 2.5L. Am I on a fruitless quest, or can it be found cheaper? I'm looking for 1-2L of 35% Any help?



Husker said:


> $82 for 2.5 L is simply a highway theft.
> H.



http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/Nitric-Acid-White-Fuming-500ml-p471.html 

$428 for 500ml, 99.5% pure. That hurts so bad, I teared up.


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## Noxx (Oct 7, 2008)

No no don't buy that.

The cold method is cheap and effective to make nitric acid for base metals dissolution.


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## JustinNH (Oct 7, 2008)

Husker said:


> I buy hydrochloric at Ace Hardware. Seems cheaper usually than Lowes or other box stores. Last Muriatic acid I bought was $3.29/gallon (sale). I bought 16 gallons at that time. I also buy concentrate sulphuric gallons there, for about $16. The normal price is $22, but I buy them by the case, pre-paid (talk to the store manager).
> 
> As for nitric, I use sodium nitrate and sulphuric or sodium nitrate and muriatic (for poor mans AR). The 60% nitric made with sodium nitrate and conc sulphuric works out to less than $20 a gallon (after removing the salts) and has worked wonderful in my opinion.
> 
> ...



EXACTLY what he said


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## JustinNH (Oct 7, 2008)

viacin said:


> Thinking that it would be cheaper to buy just one bottle of 35% nitric acid than buy the equiptment and chemicals to make my own, I started looking on google. I can't find it for less than $70.71 for 2.5L. Am I on a fruitless quest, or can it be found cheaper? I'm looking for 1-2L of 35% Any help?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Holy crap thats alot of money! You would have to get 1/2 an ounce of gold just to pay for the nitric! I think Im going to tear up too 

btw, I like your signiture quote, Viacin.


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## goldsilverpro (Oct 8, 2008)

There may be exceptions, but any time you see nitric packaged in 2.5 liter (they used to be called 5 pint) jugs, you know it's reagent grade. Reagent grade normally sells for as much as 20 times more than industrial grade. There is no standard refining process that I know of that requires reagent grade.


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## viacin (Oct 8, 2008)

Ok, you've sold me. But wait... "8} Pour or siphon off the liquid nitric acid while cold". How concentrated is this nitric acid? How do you measure the concentration, a hydrometer? Please forgive my ignorance, I'm sure that's simple chemistry.

Jim, Where do you get your sodium nitrate from? I found a pound for $10 on ebay. 


Husker said:


> Certainly not as cheap as the tech stuff that GSP and Harold talk about getting for $3-$4 a gallon, but since I have no good source for 55 gallon lots of nitric like the big boys do, my home made stuff will have to do.



I searched around but didn't find the related posts. I'de like to know more bout this tech stuff for $3/gal 

Ty justin. I found it in one of my favorite books, "wealth without risk."


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## butcher (Oct 10, 2008)

with a little studying most chemicals needed, can be made from cheaper sources like fertilizers, or found in grocery stores , hardware store, ect. 

nitric acid can de bought try action mining or my local mining supply (Expensive)(only for High purity do I buy),but shpping cost alot, with study and safe practices it can be made poor mans, or distilled to almost as high grade as 67%easily , even higher Grade % with more work.
here are a few supplys and my source: borax(for flux) 20 mule team soap Grocery store,sodium metabisulfite wine making supply farm coop store, urea fertilyzer, nitrate fertilizer, KNO3 stump remover garden center , copperas ferrous sufate make it Iron transformer plates and sulfuric acid or buy at garden store, oxalic acid wood bleach or rust remover hardware or auto store, sulfuric acid hardware or napa auto store (can concentrate new battery acid to (98%), HCl Hydrochloric acid get mine at store that sell concrete block also hardware store,sodium chlorate (weed killer), lime hardware., soda ash washing soda soap groceries, sodium hydroxide drian cleaner ect, sodium bisulfate pool store, high percentage hydrogen peroxide pool suppys, 3% H2O2 wallmart ect,sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) gro store,sulfur garden supply, (95% tin solder) hardware, silicon sand or crushed glass(flux) make , ammonium chloride make, stannous ghloride make,pure zink Roofing section hardware or moss remover, clorox bleach,ammonia(ammonium hydroxide) grocery store,NaCO3 washing soda(sodium carbonate groceries soap),

the list goes on and on, you learn to read the lables on almost everything ,and search and study most chemicals we can use can be in everyday products under your kitchen counter or in the barn, if not with these new fangled computers or better yet an old fashion book (those things with pages ) you can easily find the recipee on how to make it, use common sense and studying it well, tools can easily be made or bought at second hand, make your furnace, electric or propane easily, kitchen utinsils can work good and cheap, hot plate, camp stove, alcohol lamp, coffee pots (can heat on hot plate just dont change temperature fast), Glass ware NOT FOR HEAT plckle jars, measure cups ect, canning jars, poly type hose, teflon tape,turkey baster bulb, safety glasses gloves, ect.ect.

OOPs there I go again ranting on without commas and periods....


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## viacin (Oct 11, 2008)

viacin said:


> How concentrated is this nitric acid?



Found the answer. Makes ~160 mL ~50% HNO3. There are two cold processes by lasersteve on the form, I was reading the one without that information. :roll:

I still have to figure out how to check the precentages myself.

Butcher, 
you're right, Action Mining does sell nitric... 

"NITRIC ACID 
Reg: $52.10USD 

NITRIC ACID, REAGENT GRADE, 2.5L, 7 LB BOTTLE 68-70% - TRUCK ONLY (MINIMUM FREIGHT CHARGE IS APPROX. *$150-250* + HAZ CHG OF * $20* + RESIDENTIAL DELIVERY CHG OF *$76*, IF APPLICABLE). CALL FOR EXACT QUOTE."

That's $246-$346 Shipping And Handling for a 2.5L bottle!!!!!! They Are INSANE! :shock:

they do have good prices on their Sodium Nitrate though. $1.45 a lb if you buy 100lb bulk
http://actionmining.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro.php


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## lazersteve (Oct 11, 2008)

The formula for Weight-to-Weight percentage for the cold nitric acid reaction is :

(Grams HNO3 / (Grams HNO3 + Grams Water)) x 100% = % Concentration

or simply

(Grams HNO3 / Grams Solution) x 100% = % Concentration

To estimate the percent concentration divide the calculated theoretical weight of nitric produced by the total weight of the final solution.

This is the theoretical value and does not include impurities into the calculations.

Using the basic formula that produces two moles of nitric acid with total of 100 mL of water you have

(126 g / (126 g + 100 g)) x 100% =% concentration
(126 g / 226 g) x 100%
0.5575 x 100% = 55.75%

Using a specific gravity chart for nitric acid you could also estimate the percent concentration by comparing the calculated density (mass/ volume) of the resulting solution to a known value in the chart.

Steve


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## viacin (Oct 11, 2008)

Ty Steve. You simplified it very well.

So, figuring the molar mass of nitric acid = 1+14+(16*3)=63. Then the amount of nitrate ion in one mole of nitric acid =14+16*3=62. So, there are 62 g nitric ion in 63 g nitric acid. So by cross multiplication you can figure how many g there are in 100 g nitric acid. (62x100) /63 = about 98.4g nitrate ions per 100g of 100% HNO3.

So, calculating the percent HNO3 by mass per 1000ml. HNO3 is 1.42g/ml density. 1.42 x 1000 = 1420 g/1000ml. 1000/100 = 10. 10x 98.4 = 984g per 1000ml of 100%, or 98.4% actual nitric acid, or 1.6% impurities.

So, increasing your formula by a factor of 10, twenty moles of nitric in 1000ml would look like:

630g/(630g+1000g)x100%x98.4% =
(630g/1630g) x 100% x 98.4% =
.3865 x 100% x 98.4% = 38.03% (ok, what did I do wrong?)

Something doesn't look right, what did I miss?

But working backwards here...if I followed your cold process perfectly and lost nothing, and if I wanted 800 ml of nitirc acid at 55% I would add 500 ml of water, 850g of NaNO3, and 280 ml of H2SO4.

my lack of knowledge on the subject forces me to assume I'm wrong.


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## lazersteve (Oct 11, 2008)

You are over complicating the problem.

If you want 5 times as much, just multiple the amount of all ingredients by 5, all your other calculations are frivolous and not required.

Simply stated the reaction requires two moles of sodium nitrate to and 1 mole of sulfuric acid to produce 2 moles of nitric acid (126g). You'll need 100 mL of 100C water to dissolve the required 2 moles of sodium nitrate for the reaction.

Steve


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## viacin (Oct 11, 2008)

lazersteve said:


> Simply stated the reaction requires two moles of sodium nitrate to and 1 mole of sulfuric acid to produce 2 moles of nitric acid (126g). You'll need 100 mL of 100C water to dissolve the required 2 moles of sodium nitrate for the reaction.



aah, perfectly stated. Guess I calculate too much, lol. Einstein once said "everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." Good advice, but anyway, thank you Steve. I appreciate your help.


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## viacin (Oct 12, 2008)

lazersteve said:


> To estimate the percent concentration divide the calculated theoretical weight of nitric produced by the total weight of the final solution.



How do you know the calculated theoretical weight of nitric produced in a given solution to begin with? I can figure with the moles easily thanks to your example, but if I have a solution sitting in front of me, how could I figure the weight of nitric in it to start the calculations? I figured out that HNO3 is 1.42g/ml density at 100%, but that doesn't help much if the percentage is unknown. I know I could weight the solution and use specific gravity, but I don't have a scale large enough and was hoping that there was a way to figure the theoretical percentage mathmaticaly.


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## Noxx (Oct 12, 2008)

You can find out with the calculation of Mols.
For example, you made Nitric acid with 202 grams of KNO3 (2 mols) and Sulfuric acid in excess.

Nitric acid is made with the following formula:

2 KNO3 + H2SO4 = K2SO4 + 2 HNO3

2 mols of KNO3 gives 2 mols of HNO3 (nitric acid)

So if you started with 202 grams of KNO3, you would have:

202g/101g (molar mass of KNO3) = 2 mols.

Then 2mols * 63g (molar mass of HNO3) = 126 grams of theoretical pure nitric acid.


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## Noxx (Oct 12, 2008)

You can find out with the calculation of Mols.
For example, you made Nitric acid with 202 grams of KNO3 (2 mols) and Sulfuric acid in excess.

Nitric acid is made with the following formula:

2 KNO3 + H2SO4 = K2SO4 + 2 HNO3

2 mols of KNO3 gives 2 mols of HNO3 (nitric acid)

So if you started with 202 grams of KNO3, you would have:

202g/101g (molar mass of KNO3) = 2 mols.

Then 2mols * 63g (molar mass of HNO3) = 126 grams of theoretical pure nitric acid.

And about the concentration:

Mass of HNO3 / (Water + Mass of HNO3)


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## Lou (Oct 12, 2008)

Nitric acid's density is higher that 1.42 g/cc at 100%, of that I am positive. It would be some feat to get a reliable density on 100% nitric anyways, as it is constantly decomposing.

When you make poor man's nitric acid, you're making it from sulfuric acid and nitric acid. If you know how much water is present in the system, you can determine how much water is present to dilute. Recall that sulfuric acid really doesn't give you two equivalents of nitric acid unless you heat.

Instead, 
NaNO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HNO3 and it stays there mostly when you do this cold. That's part of the problem with making it like this--it isn't easy to get the sodium hydrogen sulfate out. 

That's why you use potassium nitrate, which has lower solubility. Yet it is give and take--there's less nitrate in the potassium salt gram for gram, so more possible contamination of K+, which tends to make less soluble double salts with the precious metals.

It's actually fairly complex.

One option is titrating your nitric acid, but that won't even be accurate because trace sulfuric and bisulfate will make it more acidic than is really the case.

The best option really is to determine the working concentration. Take a metal that will only dissolve in nitric acid and put it in your nitric acid. Mass it before and after it stops dissolving. The amount of metal lost is how much metal went into the solution.

It is a very, very crude approximation, but so is any other test that you can do at home.


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## butcher (Oct 12, 2008)

to figure moles see atomic weight, of each element, also good simple chemistry info a web seach away.


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## viacin (Oct 13, 2008)

Lou said:


> Nitric acid's density is higher that 1.42 g/cc at 100%, of that I am positive. It would be some feat to get a reliable density on 100% nitric anyways, as it is constantly decomposing.



I read it in a chemistry help forum, thats all I know Lou. I have no way of checking it myself unless I have a formula, or make it and weigh it 

Thank you both for the help, I made straight A's in science class, but we never had a strict chemistry class. It was all mixed in with the particle, theoretical, and physical. And Butcher, I can figure molecular mass that way, but I though a mole was something different (the amount of substance of a system which contains as many "elemental entities" (eg, atoms, molecules, ions, electrons) as there are atoms in 12 g of carbon-12)?

I have managed to read about half of this in the past few days, it's helping:

[img:203:254]http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/muze/books/0764554301.jpg[/img]


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## butcher (Oct 14, 2008)

its hard for me to explain anything many others here are better at it, ill try
from periodic chart Hydrogen = 1.00794 so approximate k=39, N=14,O=15,H=1,S-32 KNO3=98g/mole H2SO4=94g/mol NaNO3=81g/mol HNO3=60g/mol H2O=17grams/mole atomic wetght
2 KNO3 + H2SO4 = 2 HNO3 + K2SO4 +(H2O added to disolve) 
2x(39+14+{3x15] for KNO3 = 2x98 grams/mole 
so: 2 pounds of stump remover KNO3 2x454g(lb)=908g
1 Quart 98% H2SO4 @1.83specific gravity(1.84g/ml x950ml=1738grams per quart)
hope this gets you started the books explain this better than i can, also Steve ,Lou,or many other smart fellers on this forum, but we gotta do our part and study it if we want to figure it out that far, i can see you have a very sharp brain , mines not that great. so check my figures study it an find were I have made mistakes or dont quite understand some thing and help me out with it as This chemistry is something I have just began to study, most people dont care to figure it out they just want to make it ,and use it,
water specific gravity is 1 and 16g/mol this lowers the nitric acid strength,but without using a metal and heat to disolve nitrate it is nessasary(here is where distillation helps concentration)also strong sulfuric acts as a dehydrator so I use lil excess H2SO4 when distilling,its boiling point changes with concentration but is so much higher than HNO3, take care when making nitric it is some dangerous stuff not something to just jump into,keep reading that book and searching the answers are there and the more you look the more you will find, dont give up, you will see it clearly,and you will be about this be teaching me , dont count on my figureing as Im just learnin too, Butcher


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## butcher (Oct 14, 2008)

moles of any compound has a mass(weight) equal to the molecular weight of the compound in grams,add up atomic weights of atoms in compound to get molecular weight (from periodic chart)
specific gravity of substance is compared to another substance (such as water)
you can use weights of your reactants using mililiters and grams,
or use ratios to do your chemistry example 40g to 80g or 1:2 ratio.
%......density (g/mL) can compare to water . 
I am not the one to answer these Question's check the books, 
I would love to be able to explain it, but it'll be like the blind leading the blind, I was hoping you would study it and help me with it, you have a better education than I do. :wink:


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## viacin (Oct 15, 2008)

Finally made it to Home Depot today. Went in, looked at the drain cleaners for sulfuric acid. I only found one bottle inside of a plastic bag, this one:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100169339

It says on the front "Contains Lye" and on the back it says: "Contains sodium hydroxide and potasium hydroxide." I didn't see anything that said contains sulfuric acid. Do I have a winner here? If not I'm going to check ACE Hardware tomorrow. 

I looked through everything they had, and anything that was worth a hoot contained those three chemicals. I asked the sales guy for the drain cleaner with sulfuric acid in it, and he looked at me like I had a mental problem, then kindly directed me to "check the garden section". I looked around there, nothing even close. 

I also checked for the HCl in the pool supplies, nothing either. I did find sodium bisulphate though  Too bad I don't need it now, it's on sale. I just wonder if my local stores can carry these things. I have honestly never seen any of it at any hardware store around here, but I've never looked for it either. Any thoughts? I was hoping to mix saturday, but I'm afraid I may have to order the chemicals now.


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## Anonymous (Oct 15, 2008)

You want Rooto or Liquid Fire


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## butcher (Oct 16, 2008)

Viacin if you bought the caustic soda(sodium hydroxide)(lye), also used as drain cleaner(safe for Iron pipe)
it wasn't a waste, you can use it in your chemistry, 
this another one of the very dangerous chemicals, 
they used this to make soap(biodiesel a byproduct) was also used on old ships when they didnt want to bury a sailor at sea they would pack the body in it to bring it home would eat the dead flesh off bones making soap and preventing disease on the ship. remember when I was a kid the old folks would leach wood ash's to make soap with hog fat, I leach hardwood ash's to remove the hair from the deer skin before I tan their Hide,
it is dangerous stuff.
I believe can be more so than the acids, when you get it on yer hands they will get slimy thats your skin and the oils in it changing to soap
it is opposite of acids, do a little study on PH. 
caustic soda and HCL in correct mixture can make sodium chloride (table salt), but reaction with acid can be Violent, both a strong acid and strong base can burn you, table salt you can eat, I wouldn't eat any I made but have tasted,this is similar to what we are doing with refining, making salts of metals (acid + metal = salt of metal), also check out a few pages on electromotive (EMF)series, this is very important to understand in this field,the more you study the more you find there is you still need to learn. just keep looking for your materials they are there, sometimes takes a while to find them, and usually looking for one you will find others. HCl (HydroCloric Acid) used to clean concrete also calld common name Muratic acid, and Sulfuric acid used as drain cleaner(stores dont sell as much as they used to, acid attacks metal plumbing and store shelves sulfuric acid can also be called oil of vitriol in old text on refining ect.


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## butcher (Oct 16, 2008)

check Ace hardware, or other hardware store,also look for tin roofing flange,Your needed acids, ammonium chloride solder iron cleaner block,
95% Sn(tin)solder, and many other things talked about in this forum. 
I am not saying buy them till you need them but search and make a list so you know where they are when tou need them, remember read lables, and have fun,  

edit addition do not order almost every thing you can get local, I live 27 miles from a small town and they have 90% of what I need.
NAPA auto store sells new battery acid that can be concentrated to 98%
remember patients it will be your key to sucsess.


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## qst42know (Oct 16, 2008)

While you were at Home Depot you should have checked the paint department for muriatic acid concrete etch (HCL). If there is a Battery Wholesale store there they sell battery fluid 35% sulfuric.


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## viacin (Oct 16, 2008)

qst42know said:


> If there is a Battery Wholesale store there they sell battery fluid 35% sulfuric.




Yeah, I had thought about that option, but I'm trying to avoid boiling sulfuric acid at this point. I feel like I have more experience to gain before I go down that road.

I wasn't too worried about the HCl, because AR isn't my goal yet. I did forget about the concrete etcher though, I should have checked.

And butcher, then that would have been a waste  I'm not planning on making soap any time soon. The bars at wal-mart will do just fine.


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## Anonymous (Nov 1, 2008)

Some of the prices for reagent grade acids seemed high to me. I called a local chemical supply (they primarily supply water treatment plants in the area) to get a quote on the HCL and Nitric Acid reagent grade in 1gal bottles. 

HCL $25/gal (10#)
HNO3 $35/gal (7#)

Definately more expensive than making your own. But it would be pure, is this pricing reasonable for reagent grade acids? I have 25gal of HCL that was given to me, so I was planning to get nitric to use with it. But I wouldn't need the buy the reagent grade I could also use industrial grade nitric to mix with the conc HCL, true? I will have to call them next week and check how much they charge for industrial grade.


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## Harold_V (Nov 1, 2008)

misnomer said:


> But I wouldn't need the buy the reagent grade I could also use industrial grade nitric to mix with the conc HCL, true?


You can achieve very acceptable results by refining with tech grade acids. I did it for years. I used reagent grade only for making test solutions, with the exception of the final wash of my re-refined gold, at which time I used reagent grade HCl. 

I also used tap water for all my processing, except for when making electrolyte for my silver cell. I had no problems to report. I'll let you judge for yourself if my gold was of quality by the picture, below. The gold was not pickled after creating shot. 

I've posted this picture many times, but I never tire of seeing it. I hope others feel the same way. If you've seen enough, make mention. 

Harold


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## butcher (Nov 2, 2008)

Harold I always like looking at that picture


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## viacin (Nov 2, 2008)

Harold, are you kidding me? Tired of looking at beautiful gold? no way! I wish you had more pics of your refined materials, and processes.


and misnomer. $35 for a gallon of reagent grade nitric is cheap, but at the same time it's very expensive. What I mean is, 2.5L bottles sell for about $55. But, you can buy a 15 gallon SS keg of technical for about $45 from brenntag. However, you will pay a $250 deposit on the keg. If you only want a gallon or so to experiment around with, then you have a good deal. But, if you want to go full production here, I'de suggest you get a 55 gallon drum of technical grade from Brenntag or Univar.

I would be just as happy using technical grade as I would reagent. And seeing how technical is cheaper, then that would be my choice except for the occasions mentioned by Harold. I like to use distilled water however, since my local tap water is so full of chlorine and lead (yes, I said lead.). Cost is always an issue when you are literally making money 

Ya know, I'm curious what it costs everyone to make their own nitric acid. It costs me roughly $39.10 to make 1L. Highway robbery when you include the time invested. But, I'm also doing something wrong that I have yet figured out. I'm just not getting the yeilds I should. I would expect it is the "Amazing Liquid Fire" I am using for sulfuric acid. My next batch will be made with "Rooto: Professional Liquid Drain Opener" which I have been told by a reliable source is 98% H2SO4 (no msds avaliable?!).


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## qst42know (Nov 2, 2008)

If you want the MSDS for any chemical speak to the store manager. I'm fairly certain they *must* by law provide it.

Battery acid $5/gal. and Sodium Nitrate for $6.50/4pounds. Roughly translates to $24/gallon of nitric acid.


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## Lou (Nov 2, 2008)

I can pick up KNO3 for about 65 cents a pound and sulfuric is probably 15 a gallon or so. I think it's about 18-20 bucks per gallon if I distill it myself. Granted this is a gallon of 95% nitric. 

$35 for a gallon of ACS nitric is a steal!! It hasn't been that price in years. 



Lou


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## butcher (Nov 3, 2008)

sacks of nitrate fertilizers cheap, battery acid fairly cheap for me equals fvery cheap nitric acid. 
there are many other ways to remove base metals besides making nitric, if you wanted to,if you are working with mainly copper and very little gold (your in the copper refining bussiness) and making nitric for that would be more costly.


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## viacin (Nov 3, 2008)

Lou said:


> I can pick up KNO3 for about 65 cents a pound



:!: I paid $17/lb. Now I see that I have been ripped off. It was bought on ebay from what I am 95% sure is a active member of this forum. It bothers me that someone is ripping people off that bad, and linking their auction back to the forum.

I assume you are talking about the 50lb bags. Some local hardware store must have some, but I have not seen it, and what about the grade? Surely the fertilizer you put on your lawn is not very pure.


edit: I checked my records. I was wrong, I actually did not buy it from that person, as he was about *$1 more* per lb!


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## Lou (Nov 3, 2008)

It is probably about 90% pure or so, which is fine if you're distilling--I never bothered with an exact assay. I also used technical grade sulfuric which I can get at a very local chemical place. After all, it's being distilled so most of the impurities are removed. The only concern I ever had was NaCl or other salt contamination in the nitrate because heating would cause HCl to come over and contaminate nitric acid. I was never concerned enough with it to remove the halides so I think you ought to be fine.


Pity that your KNO3 cost that much money! That is about 30X more than what I got it for at Home Depot on a sale.


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## Noxx (Nov 3, 2008)

I experience the problem you stated Lou.
My KNO3 either have Chlorides or it's my sulfuric.
There is always a lot of insoluble AgCl when I dissolver silver with my nitric acid... Is there a way to prevent this or buying reagent grade chemicals is the only way ?

Thanks


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## butcher (Nov 3, 2008)

if distilling check the boiling points and azeotropes of the acids, which one boils off first at what temperature,can most likely seperate with that.
( I can't remember but believe hcl comes off first).
or might try silver in your boiling vessel this should leave salt of AgCl behind.
metals in boiling vessel seem to help (example copper taking the Hydrogen fuming off the NO2 gas from the HNO3 in boiling solution)


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## Lou (Nov 3, 2008)

Silver would be a bad idea. It would merely dissolve away with the excess nitric, or it would precip immediately as silver sulfate.


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## viacin (Nov 3, 2008)

butcher said:


> metals in boiling vessel seem to help (example copper taking the Hydrogen fuming off the NO2 gas from the HNO3 in boiling solution)



So when you put copper in nitric acid, you are actually getting NO3 and NO2 fumes? Would this be any different from most other base metals you might be disolving?


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## Lou (Nov 3, 2008)

Well that depends on the concentration of nitric. Sometimes you get NO produced. NO oxidizes immediately to give NO2.


Typically, hot, concentrated nitric will give NO2 gas.

If you wish to avoid this, dilute your nitric--any NO2 produced will dissolve in the excess water and form nitric acid again.


Lou


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## viacin (Nov 3, 2008)

So, in essence, a lower percentage nitric acid, such as 35%, would give better results. Making less fumes, and actually creating more HNO2 when the base metal is added?


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## butcher (Nov 4, 2008)

distilling a batch of gold plated pins, to recover the gold
and to make nitric acid (and copper sulfate as by product which can be used also)
if you don't have fancy lab equiptment
hot plate
alluminum pot, (1" sand in bottom) put gallon pickle jar in it(sand around outside of jar) sand bath
cut lid from 3/4" teflon to fit gallon jar hole !/4" drillid in center for 10'chemical resistant hose clear tubing, I use teflon plumbing tape, then electricians tape then cloth tape to seal lid
(do not use rubber nitric will dissolve it)
hose runs into bottom of a bottle (reciever) with small amount of water in bottom of it.
(to bubble NOx gases into reciever converting to HNO3)
reciever bottle sits in plastic bucket of ice water,
coil of this hose loops into this ice water as condenser

to prepare my sulfuric acid
My sulfuric battery acid is boiled form 12 cups down to 6 cups in pyrex coffee pot on hotplate, then let it cool off.

put a babyfood jar full of plated pins (bout 140g.) in gallon jar,
put 1 pound nitrate fertilyzer in gallon jar(about cupfull)
KNO3 or NaNO3
put cooled sulfuric acid in jar (taping on lid with hose ASAP)
raise temperature slowly 

glass should always be changed in temperature slowly THERMAL SHOCK breaks glass which can be dangerous
boiling 
you will see red brown NOx fumes from boiling container which bubbles into wter converting to clear nitric acid
the color of boiling jar will be green ,copper dissolving in nitric acid
(and sulfuric acid) from fertilyzer,
it will stay green as long as it is copper nitrate
when all nitric boiled off as NOx gasses 
boiling solution will turn blue (copper sulfate)
the reciever will have 68% nitric acid (diluted with only the amount of water you originally had in reciever bottle) 
gold will be left as flakes undisolved in the bottom of the copper sulfate solution
this will need diluteded so that it doesn't convert to salt
if diluted before it salts up it wont take as much water, as it would after it salts up
dilute this solution with warm water carefull not to thermally shock glass
then decant or filter off your gold
nitric if stored should be in bottle made for nitric acid and out of light as light destroys it.

now this is not done with concentrated sulfuric
if using concentrated acid it works better without the base metals


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