# tailings or shavings containing ag,pd,sn and pb



## arthur kierski (Jan 23, 2010)

i obtain from boards by scraping , shavings containing smd(pd,ag ),solders containing pb and sn and small ic(containing au)(already made ic powder-)---i know that is a very heterogenous mixture-----i obtained from this mixture( 800grams ) ----3grams of pd-----2grams of au----40grams of ag-----it takes me a long time to obtain this pms--------and i had to first make an hcl leach to eliminate the sn-----then i make an hno3 leach to obtain pd and some silver because most of the silver became agcl in the first(hcl)leach---then at last with ar i obtain au----
the powder left after the ar leach is silver chloride wich i dissolve in nh4oh---i need some help in doing what i described in less stages----because this is a small part of a biger operation----in other threads i asked help of how to obtain gold from red (purple )solutions from the first leach(hcl)
the 2grams of gold is not from the purple coloidal gold ---thanks and hoping that you understand my problem 

beside all that ,the scrap is magnetic and this magnetism is only eliminated during the nitric leaching prior to the ar stage----in other words ,the shavings have ni and fe and tantalum also


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 24, 2010)

Sorry but your question is not understood. 

Are you trying to recover the silver cloride? 

Or are you still trying to recover PM's from what is left of the original 800gms?


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## Platdigger (Jan 24, 2010)

Are the shavings incinerated first? If so, there could be some pd going into your first hcl leach or wash.

Could you try cyanide on this one?


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## butcher (Jan 24, 2010)

Arthur, I see solder is gonna be a problem for chemical methods, have you considered cupeling as a pretreatment?


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## arthur kierski (Jan 24, 2010)

i did not considerate cuppeling because i have these 800grams at least 3times a week and do not have any experience with doing it----i began incinerating with my last batch and did not test the red colloidal solution for pd 
thanks for the remembrance---i will do it on monday-------thanks platdigger and butch for the help--------
a question:what if after incineration i would go straight to ar?what would happen?i never did it this way
thanks again for the help
Arthur


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## butcher (Jan 24, 2010)

after inceneration if you go straight to aqua regia you have introduced base metals, and filtering problems,compounding problems, that would not be my choice.
cupeling for large amounts propably not the best choice, although I believe bone ash would get the lead, and oxidize the tin.leaving a button in better shape for your acids.

if high solder tin and lead, maybe a good flux, and recovery in a furnace melt, getting most base metals oxidized up in the glass flux, then I probably would still look at cupling afterwards, I believe 4metals gave reference to large cupels,
(I thought of trying to burning bone's and making cupels, I have a big pile of bones to be burnt, will use most of the ash is for my garden).
or since after fluxed melt the metal may be able to go to nitric stage, as it may be a lead button, (similar to using lead as a collector in a melt).
sorry I have no easy answer, as all my dealing with solder and with chemical means is very time consuming,fustrating,and would never work for dealing with large lots on a production basis.

if you can mechanically seperate the solder first, you would be far ahead.

I would work with small test batches with several different expieriments, to see which process would give easiest results.
solder, tin and lead are just a problem with acids.


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## arthur kierski (Jan 24, 2010)

thanks again butcher for your honesty
Arthur


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## qst42know (Jan 24, 2010)

It sounds as if you are having enough trouble with this material to make cupeling a worthwhile first step. With the right flux all the base metals except for some of the copper can be eliminated. If you have the room in your furnace several smaller cupels may be more cost effective than one large cupel.

With your steady supply it would seem some experiments would be in order.


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## arthur kierski (Jan 24, 2010)

in order not to bore all with long answers ,i sent you a private message-----
thanks all for the sugestions--- this pm is for qst42know


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## arthur kierski (Jan 24, 2010)

in order not to bore all with long answers ,i sent you a private message-----
thanks all for the sugestions--- this pm is for qst42know----i made a mistake and sent it to barren realm instead of qst42know---basically i said that i will try all the sugestions kindly given to me and then post the results obtained
thanks all again


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't think it will be considered boaring. Looks like you are processing solders in a big group. I am interested in knowing the process you end up using.

I do have one question. If this is solders you are processing did you 1st boil this in water to try and remove the lead?


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## arthur kierski (Jan 24, 2010)

barren realms,as the solder is in metalic alloy and up to the moment i wrote the thread i did not incinerate,i did not boil the material,but i added to the red purple hcl solution h2so4 and obtained lead sulfate-----which i filtered out of the solution


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 24, 2010)

Ok thanks for that info. 

Another question, you said the material has magnetic pats in this. But the HCL didn't disolve them from what I understand. I forgot but did you do this in hot HCL?


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## qst42know (Jan 24, 2010)

For some reason I did not recieve your message.

Anyway I and likely others, find your posts facinating. The quantities and frequency you are able to find material to process make me a bit jealous. 

I often wish I had troubles like yours. 8) 

The majority of what I know of cupelation comes from this text.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BsUJAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=assay+fulton&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=assay%20fulton&f=false


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 24, 2010)

Another question. You have shown that you are dealing with most of the metals we try to disolve and recover but you show no signs of Cu in this mix, that is puzzeling to have all of this and no copper.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 24, 2010)

> i am tryiing to obtain all the pms from the 800grams with less work(stages). i asked for help to see what could be done---i might do the cuppeling as you sugested or the cianide leach as platdigger sugestions------although butchers sayiing that direct ar (after incineration) will add base metals to the solution and dificulties in filtering i also will try this way ---thanks for your sugestions and help----if ever you need some help i am at your disposal
> yours
> Arthur Kierski




Here is the PM I think he sent it to me by mistake.


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## 4metals (Jan 24, 2010)

Arthur,

I really commend your ability to process the wide range of materials which you have mentioned on this forum. Unfortunately I have never seen a successful refiner who could handle all types of scrap profitably. Most have a few types of material which they do well, and profitably, and the rest they either decline or farm out. Then there are others who spend their days chasing their tails. 

Regarding the material you mention in this post it is a nasty blend and, while it can be done it will require you to perform a lot of steps. That is where cupellation can serve you well. By cupelling a mixture of this type you can easily produce a dore alloy which contains all of your precious metals. These can be collected and processed when you have enough material to make it worthwhile. Cupellation will remove the majority of your base metals which is always a good first step. The high silver content as compared to the other PM's may make this an ideal candidate for a silver cell with little or no silver additions to the alloy. Unfortunately you will have to check for lead as it is a bad actor in a silver cell, but it is an easy test. If your normal production generates enough need for a silver cell, the alloy generated by cupelling this material may fit right into your refining scheme. 

When I spent some time in Ecuador cupellation was a valuable tool in our refining. We had a square refractory cement box which we filled with bone ash, packed it down and made a long groove down the center and pitched the sides towards the center. Now we had a big refillable cupel to make dore beads from. The beads looked more like fat pencils but all of the base metals were gone. 

What I'm getting at is refining is a combination of pretreatment of your material followed by the actual chemical refining process. The goal is to skew as many different materials to a few tried and true methods of concentrating the PM's and eliminating the base metals as possible. This way the material entering your actual refining process becomes more routine and less prone to losses.


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## arthur kierski (Jan 24, 2010)

4metals ,i do not process all the material that you see in the forum threads that i ask for help---my son hunts all over brazil (that you know is a big country) for scrap containing pms----always he comes with a new type of scrap and from these types we choose the most promising and with more abundance to extract pms----sometimes promising materials have small quantities ---sometimes poor materials(example autocars relays)have huge quantities of scrap monthly and from them i extract a lot of silver monthly----these shavings that i am insisting on ,comes from very rich boards ----lots of gold ---silver and palladium------before the big financial crisis of 2009 i lived exclusively from autocatalist(rh=10000dollars an ounce)----after the plunge i had to find a knew way to make money and that is the reason for so many threads asking for help----although i work with precious metals for many years(35 years) only when i became a member of this forum i really learned with people like lazer steve,gsp,lou,harold,oz,marck,you,platdigger,butch and many others what precious metals refining is---
i have a nice laboratory and have the advantage that some pms like silver and pd is sold here (by me) 50% over the international spot price----even so with the american bank crisis i almost went broke---


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## 4metals (Jan 24, 2010)

Arthur,

When members like you ask for suggestions about specific types of material, everyone reading the thread benefits. We all benefit from seeing things from different perspectives and hearing different approaches to the same problem. I wish more members processing scrap in volume would air their questions. None of us are past the point where we can't learn anymore.


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## qst42know (Jan 24, 2010)

4metals said:


> When I spent some time in Ecuador cupellation was a valuable tool in our refining. We had a square refractory cement box which we filled with bone ash, packed it down and made a long groove down the center and pitched the sides towards the center. Now we had a big refillable cupel to make dore beads from. The beads looked more like fat pencils but all of the base metals were gone.



You didn't happen to keep a photo of this did you? Sounds like a clever solution to large scale cupelation. What was the fuel for such a large roast?


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## 4metals (Jan 25, 2010)

The box was about the size of a shoebox that a pair of boots would come in, square not rectangular. Pretty simple. The furnace was a big gas fired muffle furnace which had doors on both ends. The giant cupel was slid into the furnace and charged from a port in the top. I don't have any pictures but the design was identical to the style often shown in old assay books.


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