# Oxy/Acetylene Torch Restrictions



## viacin (Oct 18, 2008)

I wasn't sure where to put this (we don't have a melting/molding/minting section! aaah!). I recently learned that if I want a oxy/acetylene setup, then need a business licence. No one in our area will sell or refill them without a account, which requires a licence. Well, acquiring a business licence for refining in a residential zone will be impossible to say the least. I may be able to get a setup through my work and take them home, but this would require me to answer a lot of questions about what I am doing, which I don't want right now either. Here's what comes to mind:

Could I use a propane torch?
Maybe acquire a business licence for another type of business that could be operated out of my home?
Buy a propane forge that can reach over 2,000F?
Any other ideas?
What are the costs to operate these (i.e. how long will a bottle of propane last, ect.)?

All the pretty brown powder isn't going to do me much good without a torch.


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## Lou (Oct 18, 2008)

I find that surprising. I've never, ever been asked for a business license when I go to fill up ANY gas (chlorine, liquid sulfur dioxide, argon, nitrogen, oxygen, propane, acetylene, hydrogen) except sulfur hexafluoride, and that was because it is on a green house gas watch list. My gas suppliers are down the road and I absolutely love them--fast, friendly, they know what I do and get a kick out of it, and they give me a discount on things routinely. 'Been going there about 6 years now and I probably won't go anywhere else. Occasionally go to Linde for LN2. 

Last time I was at the hardware store they had oxy acetylene rigs there for the buying, couple hundred bucks for a decent setup.

I know they have them at Lowes and Home Depot too. I would try there.

I know you won't be getting any sort of business license that involves chemicals that you can operate out of your house, unless you're making soap and candles, and perhaps perfumes. Definitely not refining.

It's plenty possibly to use propane to melt gold, problem is, you need a furnace to do it in any reasonable quantity. You can build a furnace for melting a few ounces of gold and silver from a couple old kiln bricks. That's what I do for small lots under 5 oz.

Best bet is to just go get an oxygen cylinder and get propane too. Oxypropane is good enough for just about anything you'll need to do. I personally prefer it over acetylene--less hazard, less restrictions on pressure, lighter cylinders etc. You can still soot molds with propane.



Lou


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## Anonymous (Oct 18, 2008)

You need to go to a retail supplier for the gases. You will have to buy the set up, if you have a tractor supply store they sell everyting and refills.

Jim


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## qst42know (Oct 18, 2008)

These folks make torches that will run on any fuel gas (propane, natural gas, mapp) and compressed air. With a tip change they will run on oxy/acetylene. They often come up on ebay for under $60. 

I have one of these national torches but most often use a propane Turb-O-torch from a 20# tank with stacked kiln bricks.

They do make a hydrogen torch version for future PGM work.

How does a hotroder or farmer in your area get by without a "gas axe"?

http://nationaltorch.com/


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## Platdigger (Oct 18, 2008)

hmmmm....compressed air and propane......will that run hotter than a turbo?
Randy


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## viacin (Oct 18, 2008)

Yeah, I don't know what the deal is either, but I have talked to a few other people locally that have ran into the same problem. This must be some sort of local ordinance or something. I called the only four suppliers in our area (AirGas, Jones Welding, Dennis Welding, and Linde Gas), and was told by all four that you have to have a account to buy/rent cylinders or get them refilled, and you have to have a business licence to open a account.

My local home depot does sell a port-a-torch setup that includes the very small cylinders. But they come empty, and I can't fill em up without the above mentioned account. tractor supply's website has them listed, but I do not know if they are full or empty. I will have to phone them, as the closest one is 89 miles away according to google maps.

Dirt track racing is a big deal around here. All the good 'ole boys get together saturday night, get drunk, and race till monday morning. Now these people must have oxy/acetylene. And I agree the farmers must also, although I could see a farmer giving his tax I.D. and getting one. Speaking of which, I do like those torches qst, I'm going to keep them in mind.

This may boil down to the companies simply not wanting to deal with the public because people take their tanks and dissapear, or maybe they need a federal tax I.D. number to do business with you, or maybe it is a law. I don't know but I'm going to keep pressing. Please keep the good ideas coming in, I need options


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## qst42know (Oct 18, 2008)

Platdigger said:


> hmmmm....compressed air and propane......will that run hotter than a turbo?
> Randy



I could not find any temp data. I would guess it would burn hotter because it is not limited by the fuel flowing through the orifice to syphon its own combustion air, and can be adjusted more to the oxidizing side which should be hotter. The flame is more of a pencil point. 

I am sure they can answer your question more accurately.


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## Anonymous (Oct 18, 2008)

Tractor Supply, is the place to buy, or similiar like Southern AG.


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## Anonymous (Oct 19, 2008)

I think the gas suppliers only wanted you to open an account with them. You pay a yearly rental per bottle - not all suppliers will fill a self owned gas cylinder.

Al's Supply House in Chilliwhack B.C had a bank of oxygen cylinders from which they filled customer cylinders from - No contract necessary and they didn't care the color of the bottle being filled. Each company uses a different color on their cylinders.

When I was doing scrap I went right into the Air Liquid plant to pick up liquid oxygen in a big thermos. Good for that morning after hangover.


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## butcher (Oct 19, 2008)

furnaces are easily built, electric, propane,propane air,natural gas, ect ect, you can even build tour own burners, also just starting out you may consider a small disposable propane (Mapp) oxy set up, years ago I Had one that used carbide for acytelene and some other powder for oxygen can remember what,cant think of anywhere or why someone would need licence for filling these gases or buying an torch, unless the salesman just didnt want to?or a wholsale house selling only to bussinesses, try another source, ask the farmer, plumber,welder, ect where he gets his bottles filled, harbor freight sells kit cheap.actually furnaces would be better than a torch.


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## viacin (Oct 19, 2008)

I think that's what it boils down to, the companies will not deal with the public. I do hope that tractor supply isn't my only hope, they are almost 90 miles away, but I can buy everything I need from them, plus they do refill. If I had a business I could get everything I needed delivered right to my house from airgas. So:

1. I could use a propane torch, with extra trouble (don't like this idea now)
2. I could build/buy a propane forge (cheapest startup option, btw - $199)
3. I can drive 180 miles every month or so and get refills at TS (it would cost more for the gas in the truck than the gas in the cylinders.)
4. I can start a business at home for something else, and get it delivered (this sounds good to me, plus I could rent for a while to save some on startup costs)
5. I could work out a deal with my work and get them through them (I really don't like tying myself to them anymore than I must, might decide to quit one day.)

I have some good options now, but if you can think of anything else please post it!

"When I was doing scrap I went right into the Air Liquid plant to pick up liquid oxygen in a big thermos. Good for that morning after hangover." heh. I should try that :lol:


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## butcher (Oct 19, 2008)

I have built several furnace from scrap from my barn cost me $0.00 dollars, old propane tanks,plumbing fittings, refactory, for propane---- old heater elements, toilet paper, refactory,old refridgerant tank, dont get discouraged all you need is bout 2000 deg f.------most people didnt have an torch Who done this in the past , this is just another small problem you will overcome,and you will have many more after this one is solved.

edit add--- very small amounts of gold I have melted with a $6 butane pencil torch for small nugget in crucible.


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## Noxx (Oct 19, 2008)

I built a 1200°C electric furnace a few months ago and I'm now in the process of building a better one. Results have been good so far.


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## jimdoc (Oct 19, 2008)

Check this site out;

http://backyardmetalcasting.com/

And don't forget the sites on the link page;
http://backyardmetalcasting.com/links.html\

Jim


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## Anonymous (Dec 20, 2008)

I use propane oxygen...... BBQ and medical O2 or get O2 bottle fill at airport (general aviation) Aviator Breathing Oxygen is actually dryer then medical.
Your bottle will need to be recently hydro tested for the mechanics safety if they check it at all. The max fill will be about 1800 PSI (not a full bottle)

Hope this helps......

Also: as noted, there is not a melting/molding area......

Has anyone tried melting/molding in cast iron?

I have this idea that I want to "disguise" my refined gold as either fishing weights or tin/lead soldiers.... Kind of a hide it in plain sight thing. I have trepidations about trying to melt gold in my steel laddle and pouring it into a cast iron mold.... any advise?


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## qst42know (Dec 20, 2008)

A mold, well sooted and heated to a few hundred degrees can be iron or even steel in smaller sizes. The mold though heated would be cold when compared to the melt temp.

I have been considering a bullet mold for small ingots but haven't tried it yet. The mold gate opening may need drilled larger or removed altogether.

But the ladle heated to temperatures high enough to melt PMs would certainly contaminate your metal. PMs can dissolve or become fused to the ladle. All your hard work will be undone.


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## SilverFox (Dec 20, 2008)

fabricgator said:


> I use propane oxygen...... BBQ and medical O2 or get O2 bottle fill at airport (general aviation) Aviator Breathing Oxygen is actually dryer then medical.
> Your bottle will need to be recently hydro tested for the mechanics safety if they check it at all. The max fill will be about 1800 PSI (not a full bottle)
> 
> Hope this helps......
> ...



My advice would be use proper Cupels and graphite molds. If you want to disguise your gold leave it as powder. Doesn't get any less gold like then powder. Just don't label your container as "Gold"


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## Anonymous (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks guys,

I know about leaving the mud. Reminds me of a story where the nobel peace prize winner aqua regia'd his medal as the Nazi troops were going through. Put the liquid on the shelf and got out of dodge..... afterwards he returned to find it undisturbed, precipitated, and told the committee.... they supposedly took the original gold and minted a new medal.

Have you heard this story? Is it true? do I tell it somewhat correctly or am I way off base......


Tin Soldier is just something I thought would be cool... I cold forged about an ounce with a hammer and made a cool, primitive ring.


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## Noxx (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes you are right, it's a true story.

You can find it on wikipedia.


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## bmgold (Dec 20, 2008)

> I cold forged about an ounce with a hammer and made a cool, primitive ring.



Any chance of posting a picture of the ring? Sounds real interesting.


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## Harold_V (Dec 20, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> My advice would be use proper Cupels and graphite molds. If you want to disguise your gold leave it as powder. Doesn't get any less gold like then powder. Just don't label your container as "Gold"


Cupels are made for the process of cupellation, and are not considered good for use as melting dishes. There are such items available that have an excellent duty cycle, making them far more desirable for melting. 

It is not important that molds be made of graphite, and, in fact, I'd discourage the use of such molds. They are prone to degradation in use, unlike iron molds. The best possible choice of mold materials would be ductile or malleable iron, each of which have excellent shock resistance and do not scale, unlike steel. 

Storing gold as powder isn't a great idea. While it may not look like gold to less learned people, if it is dropped, not only will it be highly contaminated, a serious loss will be experienced as well. Gold is best stored as a solid for that reason. 

Harold


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## audragon (Dec 20, 2008)

I have purchased several tanks from AirGas and Industrial welding supply. NO business license required all I must do is sign a hazmat statement that I understand the dangers in transporting the tanks.

If you buy the tanks who cares if you "run off" with them, they are yours.

Praxair will only rent tanks.

My local dealers for welding supplies are very friendly and want the business. I would call Airgas corporate and talk with them about your local problem.


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