# silver cementing disaster??



## Woolf (Jan 11, 2011)

my first attempt cementing silver i thought i did well one.. while watching others videos and reading others reactions i believed i did good... how ever i am being told now not to use urea so im doing a second test... first let me explain the steps of my first experiment

i took 70% nitric mixed it 50/50 with bottled water

placed inside of beaker

placed 925 sterling inside 

stirred around until majority was dissolved

urea until no more reaction took place

filtered

then placed copper tube inside... 

i saw the reaction it looks correct... im assumeing i let it dry then melt..


now my second attemptim told not to use urea but so far its not anywherenear the same... i start off the same 50/50

but this time im using more silver and more acid.... so i place all the silver in my beaker and only put half th acid in to stat so i can watch the reaction.... the first amountclearly did not dissolve everything so i pour in the rest of the acid stir until all is dissolved but this time im getting a sea green color or a milky green color... i left the acid alone.. had to run errons for a few minutes maybe 30-45 came back and theres a solid white color at the bottom... it was chunky like cottage cheese? when i stired this it bubbled a little so i applied heat to the beaker and saw a small reaction i continued applying heat and stiring i left the acid alone for some time now and when i try to filter this white creamy substance is very thick and wont filter with out my pump... any idea what this is?


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## Woolf (Jan 11, 2011)

i just finished filtering the milky substance its starting to harden like wax but still remains the while milky color.,..


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 11, 2011)

Sounds like you might have used tap water and created silver chloride. Use distilled water.


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## shyknee (Jan 11, 2011)

Woolf said:


> i just finished filtering the milky substance its starting to harden like wax but still remains the while milky color.,..


sounds like you had some tin mixed in your sterling did you test every piece?
did you incinerate to burn off oils, wax and other uglies?
Tin and nitric equals what you experienced ,hard to filler.
If it was silver chloride only then it would be easy to filter .

This is good to experience the effect of tin ,for I faced this demon many times before.Now I avoid him like the plague .

good learning


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## qst42know (Jan 11, 2011)

> i took 70% nitric mixed it 50/50 with bottled water



I see no reason to use urea in a silver cementation. Copper will quickly consume any remaining free nitric.

Confirm your bottled water is RO purified or distilled and without added flavor enhancing salts, avoid natural spring water. And skip the urea it is unnecessary and may be the source of your troubles.


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## joem (Jan 11, 2011)

> i took 70% nitric mixed it 50/50 with bottled water



Bottled water is not distilled water and some bottled water is just filtered tap water.


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## Woolf (Jan 11, 2011)

well this is why im experimenting =) im jusmt trying to learn reactions.. so can i filter out the remaining white cream and still cement the silver out?


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## philddreamer (Jan 11, 2011)

Yeap, you need distilled water for your 50/50, otherwise ag will precipitate, i made that same mistake. :roll: 
If you neutralized all the nitric with urea, I don't think you'll get a reaction. 
I would filter, add a bit of nitric & try cementing; hope you didn't drop all the silver that was in solution.

Just my 2 centavos, too! 8) 

Phil


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## Sucho (Jan 11, 2011)

if its looks like a snow in your solution, its AgCl. try to expose to a daylight or UV gas charge...if it turns greyish - its silver chloride,filter it and keep for another processing(you used water with consisting Cl- ions)
if its like a gel, its metastannic acid , you can expose it on UV, there will be no change of colour

filter it and cement silver using copper

you can add a little bit of nitric (finer mesh precipitated and costs more copper, but a little bit clearer)


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## qst42know (Jan 11, 2011)

What kind of water did you use? 

Check the label.

If it's silver chloride it can be recovered but don't let it dry out.


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## Woolf (Jan 11, 2011)

i just went out and bought distilled water the cream looks greyish after filtered and a little dry its like clay or something... im going to put copper inside and see if theres any reaction


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## Woolf (Jan 11, 2011)

alright cementing worked all done now i just need to let it sit over night and dry/melt =D


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 11, 2011)

Go back to Steve site and look at his video again. Chances are you are missing values. That was too quick..


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## Woolf (Jan 11, 2011)

this was earlier on in the morning... im just now finishingalmost 12 hours after... and im going to let it sit over night with copper inside


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 11, 2011)

AHH ok.


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## Harold_V (Jan 12, 2011)

Woolf said:


> alright cementing worked all done now i just need to let it sit over night and dry/melt =D


I read no mention of rinsing. Surely you know you must rinse it well? 
Rinse until there is no color in the rinse solution. Tap water will serve perfectly well. If you have a Buchner funnel, once the color is gone, get the silver in the Buchner, tamp it down hard, and rinse with water to collect any loose silver that clings to the sides. You can then force dry the cemented silver by placing in an evaporating dish and heating slowly. Don't be surprised to see traces of nitric being expelled as it dries. 

Harold


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

yes i filter many times even after the water was clear i continued to rinse the silver just to double check im going to let it dry by sitting out i have alot of 5toz bars im considering refining ( 925 bars ) thank you everyone for the help =))


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

how much nitric/h20 should i use per gram of 925 silver?


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## philddreamer (Jan 12, 2011)

These is from notes that I have saved from the different posts:
"It takes about 38 ml of nitric acid to dissolve 1 troy oz. of silver.
& It takes about 79.3 ml of nitric acid to dissolve 1 troy ounce of copper."

Do some math & calculate how much you should need. 
Remember to add the nitric to the water, & in increments, 'til all reaction stops, so you don't over use nitric.

And remember, its 50/50. 

Take care!

Phil


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

hmm im doing a a pretty big batch this time... so far it has taken all day and still not done dissolving the silver... but this time im noticing black powder on the bottom of my beaker?? any one know what this is?

i do not have a heating tray or anything and its very cold outside =(

im assuming thats why its taking very long


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## lazersteve (Jan 12, 2011)

Watch the silver video on my website and you will see the process.

The black is most likely gold.

Steve


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

i have watched your videos how ever the silver cementing video doesntsay anything about gold powder  lol


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## lazersteve (Jan 12, 2011)

The name of the video is separating silver from gold, in it I use diluted nitric acid to separate silver from gold. The gold remains behind as a fine black powder in the video.

Steve


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

yes i just watched that video =D i have your webpage open and your DVDs inside my laptop i go along with them as i refine so i dont forget things but i didnt expect this much black powder... i put a 5 Toz 925 sterling bar inside of the acid the entire bottom of a 1000ML beaker is covered and the bar still has not dissolved... im putting the beaker inside warm/hot water because the acid was no longer reacting to the silver... its way too cold outside... but now that its sitting in warm water its reacting again... water is not touching the acid


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

the video does not show me what you did with the black powder though....


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## lazersteve (Jan 12, 2011)

The black powder is processed like any other dirty gold. 

Steve


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

i havnt processed gold yet =X lol i was just going to follow the AR video... but was nervous id make a very expensive mistake lol


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

ill just filter the black powder with distilled water then do a small AR test tube experiment


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## Woolf (Jan 12, 2011)

ok i let my acid sit fr a few hours everything is dissolved but theres like shards of glass growing at the bottom>?? ive never seen this before lol what does this mean? it looks like crystals


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## qst42know (Jan 12, 2011)

Like these?

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=8531&p=80125&hilit=silver+nitrate+crystals#p80125


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 12, 2011)

What do you have in the solution? Gold & silver?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 12, 2011)

qst42know said:


> Like these?
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=8531&p=80125&hilit=silver+nitrate+crystals#p80125



I think that is what he has in there too.


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

yes thats exactly what i have lol i used my glass rod to stir the substance and break everything up...... what exactly are these crystals?


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

from my understanding i have gold inside of here as well... there is a brown/black powder at the bottom of my beaker.... im assuming i should seperate this substance let it dry/melt?

or do i put this powder in AR?


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> What do you have in the solution? Gold & silver?




i was refining 925 silver


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 13, 2011)

You have silver crystals. You can try to warm your solution up and see if they will disolve back in you solution and siphin off the solution leaving you black powde that should be gold and process it in your favorite method.


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> You have silver crystals. You can try to warm your solution up and see if they will disolve back in you solution and siphin off the solution leaving you black powde that should be gold and process it in your favorite method.




i filtered the black powder but have no idea how to handle it... it took 2 filter papers to completely catch it all... lol do i just place the filter papers in a beaker with AR? or should i just let it dry?


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

the silver is cementing now lol my beaker is filled to the top with the copper bar inside.... seems to be going perfectly fine..


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 13, 2011)

Woolf said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > You have silver crystals. You can try to warm your solution up and see if they will disolve back in you solution and siphin off the solution leaving you black powde that should be gold and process it in your favorite method.
> ...



Next time this happens to you let the powder settle and then siphon off the solution you will have less problems. Since your gold is traped in the filter papers and you probably don't have much of it you can wait and process the filters when you have more gold to process or you can run them in HCL/clorox. You shouldn't try AR until you have some more experience. Do a search on HCL/clorox and you will find the process.


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

ok i have searched HCL/clorox and no luck so far.. got a link ?


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

how long can i store this powder? im just going to store this powder until i can read up more on how to handle this.. and when i collect more i will stash it inside of the same test tubes lol thank you for the help.... im now on my second tube of copper in my cementing process -.- its still reacting


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 13, 2011)

Check this thread about the 5th post down.

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=6026


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

he says if its not from a cell to proceed differently? would i just follow that exactly?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 13, 2011)

Yea you can.


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

should i keep adding copper till it no longer reacts? ( cementing process ) ive already added around 2 6" copper pipes and its still got a small reaction on the 3rd... my acid is filled to the top of a 1000ML beaker


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 13, 2011)

You should probably let the copper stay in there over night. Always use a vessal that allows you room, it's not good to not have room for extra. What would you do if the cementing action added volume to the beaker.


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## Woolf (Jan 13, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> You should probably let the copper stay in there over night. Always use a vessal that allows you room, it's not good to not have room for extra. What would you do if the cementing action added volume to the beaker.



yeah i know i was useing every single beaker during this one... i refined a large amount of silver and did not realize how much room it was going to take up... i placed the 1000ML beaker inside a tray to catch any overflow... i also placed an order for 2x 2000ML beakers and 2x 1000ML beakers along with a bigger funnel and more crucibles lol have to be ready for the next bath =D


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