# HCL - clorox



## Anonymous (Mar 30, 2008)

Will the HCL - Clorox reaction work with palladium?


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## Irons (Mar 30, 2008)

james122964 said:


> Will the HCL - Clorox reaction work with palladium?



Yes.


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## arthur kierski (Mar 30, 2008)

will hcl-clorox work with platinum?


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## Irons (Mar 30, 2008)

arthur kierski said:


> will hcl-clorox work with platinum?



Very slowly but HCl/Cl is used commercially to extract PGMs from ore. It might take a year and you might not get it all but it's cheap and simple.


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## SilverNitrate (Apr 2, 2008)

I want to know, because I haven't tried it... Will HCL and pool chlorine (Chlorox bleach) mix dissolve near pure gold? and what is an approximate ratio? e.g. 1liter for 2ounce @ 4HCl:1Cl?


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## phoenix_phx_ (Apr 4, 2008)

I will add my question too, if I can. Are we use max concentrated HCl?

And after dissolving can I use FeSO4 *H2O to extract gold? I don't have SMB


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## Kalf999 (Apr 8, 2008)

phoenix_phx_ said:


> I will add my question too, if I can. Are we use max concentrated HCl?
> 
> And after dissolving can I use FeSO4 *H2O to extract gold? I don't have SMB



Nice question : I have dissolved some gold from plated material in a 1:1 10% Hydrochloroc acid/3% NaOCl (Glorox)

How can I get my gold out of there without SMB...?


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## Harold_V (Apr 8, 2008)

I see no one has answered the question. 

While I have no experience with the work-arounds of dissolving gold, I'm of the opinion that ferrous sulfate will precipitate gold. It's a great choice when working with AR, for sure. 

Luckily, it's one of the precipitants that should be available without too much trouble. Garden stores should carry it as an iron supplement. Buy a small container and give it a go. The crystals in the container should be a pale green/white color. If they are brown, they won't work. Exposure to enough moisture reduces them, and they turn brown in the process. An ounce of ferrous sulfate will precipitate an ounce of gold. Dissolve the crystals in water and add a few drops of HCl to clarify the solution. Pour the ferrous sulfate into the gold chloride solution for an instant and complete reaction.

It might be a kindness for anyone trying the method to report, so others will benefit. 

Harold


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## eagle2 (Apr 10, 2008)

You can use concd HCl or half HCl and half water. Use a minimum of bleach. Clorox with no additives is OK. See Steves tutorials.

I had a very experienced chemist friend who used Ferrous Sulfate exclusively with very good success. The only problem is that Iron contaminates the precipitation. You have difficulty washing it or you will have to re-precip. with another reagent. Ferrous will also precip. Palladium at the same time. 

Al


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## Harold_V (Apr 10, 2008)

eagle2 said:


> Ferrous will also precip. Palladium at the same time.
> 
> Al


I'm not convinced it precipitates palladium, although I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong. I'm of the opinion it is simply dragged down, but does so far easier than do other elements. 

I noticed that the gold that came down from palladium laden solutions was always quite dark. I used ferrous sulfate to selectively precipitate gold from such solutions on a fairly regular basis when I first refined due to the presence of dental gold in my accumulated materials. 

Palladium tends to drag down with SO2 as well, and I don't think it is truly being precipitated. I don't recall having the same problem with platinum----just palladium. It is also quite difficult to wash from the precipitated gold. 

I wonder if Lou has an opinion. 

As far as ferrous sulfate being used for precipitating gold, I found it was very easy to eliminate in washing---although I was a wash freak and went far out of my way to wash well. In spite of that, I quit using it and started using SO2 from a cylinder. It's much faster and easier. 

Harold


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## Irons (Apr 10, 2008)

Some reducing agents can reduce PGMs as well as Gold.

Some literature I read recommended using Oxalic Acid because it is a milder reducing agent and usually won't reduce PGMs. Success will vary depending on what's in the mix.

I know that Sodium Sulfite will reduce PGMs, but slowly.


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## lazersteve (Apr 10, 2008)

From what I've read in literature concerning SO2 and Palladium, it will precipitate from solutions of the nitrates. The whole chemistry changes for some precipitants when the PGMs are in nitrate or sulfate form. This would explain why you want to drive off the nitrates before moving to precipitation.

Steve


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## Irons (Apr 10, 2008)

Some literature from 1887 that discusses this issue:

http://tinyurl.com/65sf46

The perpetual reinvention of the wheel. 8)


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## eagle2 (Apr 10, 2008)

Lol. Lots of comments. My Merck Index says Palladium Nitrate is soluble in water with turbidity. With much water it precipitates as a brown basic salt. Also completely soluble in dilute Nitric acid. 

With such varying characteristics it might do many things. but I tend to think also with Harold, its mostly dragged down with other metals or by varying solution conditions. So I stand corrected.

I would buy my friends Gold at 10 to 20gms at a time. My precips would come out yellow-brown. His precips. looked just brown. I would try to purify them with Ammonia and HCl washes. I even would boil the precip with concd. HCl and it still wouldn`t look good. I don`t think he washed them at all. When I re-dissolved them and re-preciped with Sodium Nitrite I had lost about 6-10% of the weight. When I analyzed the leftovers, they mostly where Palladium, Iron and some Nickel and Copper. 

I asked him where did all the Pd come from? He said he wasn`t sure, he had not had any dental stuff. I asked him why do you use Ferrous? He said its very easy, quantitative and he can neutralize the AR with Ammonia!! Well I tried Ferrous, but didn`t like the Iron that was in the Gold precip. and at that time I was exclusively into Sodium Nitrite. 

I never tried a dual experiment where you would compare Gold yields from standard methods and a method of neutralizing with Ammonia. No book I ever saw ever commented on it, except to vaguely infer its a no-no. 

Sodium Nitrite will definitely separate Gold from the PGM`s.

Al


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## eagle2 (Apr 10, 2008)

Irons, very interesting reference. That chemist seems to never have tried Sodium Nitrite or it was before his time!.  

Al


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## Harold_V (Apr 11, 2008)

eagle2 said:


> I never tried a dual experiment where you would compare Gold yields from standard methods and a method of neutralizing with Ammonia. No book I ever saw ever commented on it, except to vaguely infer its a no-no.


One of the things I learned early on is that there are compounds of precious metals that are extremely explosive. Some so much so that they are known to exist in theory only. 

Armed with that idea, and not being a chemist, I was faithful to follow well documented processes (Hoke's book, in fact) and stayed away from experimenting. I never thought I was clever, didn't think I could revolutionize the refining industry, and had only one objective in mind. To refine precious metals (starting with gold). I could see no reason to re-invent the wheel-----finding it sufficiently round for my purpose. 

Having stated the above, the idea of using ammonia, or anything that is not commonly recommended, in a gold solution, frankly, scares the hell out of me. I always recommend folks stick to tried and proven methods unless they know what they're doing. 

Harold


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## Irons (Apr 11, 2008)

eagle2 said:


> Irons, very interesting reference. That chemist seems to never have tried Sodium Nitrite or it was before his time!.
> 
> Al



Sodium Nitrite was known long before his time but the interaction with PGMs might not have been understood.
Working with PGMs is more of an art than science, as you know, and he surely knew a lot more than he was willing to write about. Refiners have their secret formulas and techniques, especially those who work with PGMs.


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## eagle2 (Apr 11, 2008)

Yes, it`s an art. I had a very small amount of Pt I was recovering. I thought it was all out. A week later there was more at the bottom of the beaker and the solution color still looks Orange. Its all fun.  

Al


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## Irons (Apr 12, 2008)

eagle2 said:


> Yes, it`s an art. I had a very small amount of Pt I was recovering. I thought it was all out. A week later there was more at the bottom of the beaker and the solution color still looks Orange. Its all fun.
> 
> Al



Orange is good, especially when it tends to the red side. 8)

When it quits being fun, it's time to find another way to entertain ones self.


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## GeeDub (Feb 12, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> The crystals in the container should be a pale green/white color. If they are brown, they won't work.



Well you just solved a 30 year old mystery for me.
In my early years of refining, I tried Ferrous sulfate to drop the gold, on the recommendation of an independent assayer I knew. 
Didn't work *at all*. 
Couldn't figure out why, and I was surprised because I had been told it was easier than the Sodium Bisulfite I had been using.
The crystals were yellowish and brown.


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## Harold_V (Feb 12, 2009)

GeeDub said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > The crystals in the container should be a pale green/white color. If they are brown, they won't work.
> ...



I'm no chemist, but I believe it's to do with the material having lost an electron. Perhaps Lou could better explain.

The comments I make are generally just knowledge I gained from Hoke. Her book really is a great way to start the process of learning to refine precious metals. Her writing style lends itself well to folks that don't have a chemical background. 

I remind readers, I have no personal interest in the book, nor its sales. Just trying to pass along what will prove to be the best information available for the non-chemist. 

Harold


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## eagle2 (Feb 14, 2009)

Hi Geedub
The Ferrous ion is Greenish, when it starts to look brown in the bottle it has oxidized. Ferrous wil go bad this way if the bottle is not sealed from the air and moisture. Also I think the carbon dioxide in the air plays a part.

Gold gets reduced by Ferrous, because Ferrous takes an electron from Gold in its compounds and Gold becomes a metal. In the process the Ferrous is oxidized to Ferric which is a brown compound.

So Ferric cannot do a thing to reducing Gold anymore. The potential has been used up.

Al


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## flexyman (Mar 15, 2009)

Hi all,
I am so gratefull for this Forum. I have learned so much here. But!
The other day i had disolved some alloy containing gold and Some
other metals. I had added an excess of Clorox and after first making
a small test to ascertain that Sodium meta bisulfite will precipitate gold,
I found no reaction. thinking I had to much Chlorine in my leach Solution
of 2 litres I added 1/4 teaspoon of Sodium thiosulfate to the HCl-Clorox
and stirred the mixture. Low and behold I ended up with the inside of the beacker gold plated and all the gold precipitated out of solution. I filtered
out the gold then put the clarified solution in a clean beaker and hung
some Iron in this solution untill it was PH7 and a surprizing amount of
black precipt lay in the bottom of the beaker. I filtered this out annd have
stored it for further investingtion later. I will apreciate some thoughts
on this.

I love Hyro-metallurgy


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## Platdigger (Mar 15, 2009)

That is some find Flex.
Do you know what other metals were in the alloy?
Randy


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## Harold_V (Mar 15, 2009)

flexyman said:


> I will apreciate some thoughts
> on this.


Assuming all of the gold had been precipitated, and there were no other metals of value in solution, the black material you accumulated will be a combination of carbon (from the steel) and copper that was in solution. 

I would suggest you dissolve a little with acid and test for values. If you find nothing, discard. It's not a good idea to save anything that is known to have no value. The day will come when you have so much that it will overwhelm you, and the only way you can sort it out is to test each individual lot. 

Harold


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## jsargent (Mar 15, 2009)

flexyman said:


> Hi all,
> I am so gratefull for this Forum. I have learned so much here. But!
> The other day i had disolved some alloy containing gold and Some
> other metals. I had added an excess of Clorox and after first making
> ...



I'm glad somebody tried this thiosulfate thing. Been wondering about it. Sodium thiosulfate is widely used for de-chlorination, but on the other hand it is also an alternative lixiviant for gold so not sure how it would act with gold already in a chloride form. Maybe Lou could answer this as his chemistry knowledge is superb. Sure would be nice to have a quick and easy way to dispel excess chlorine rather than boiling or letting the solution sit for days.


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## lazersteve (Mar 15, 2009)

As with excess nitric acid, the best solution for excess chlorine is to not produce it in the first place. Learning to control your reaction additions will not only keep your chlorine or nitric levels in check it will save you money on additional chemicals such as thiosulfate or urea.

The addition of more SMB may have very well had the same effect as the addition of thiosulfate.

Steve


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## jsargent (Mar 15, 2009)

lazersteve said:


> As with excess nitric acid, the best solution for excess chlorine is to not produce it in the first place. Learning to control your reaction additions will not only keep your chlorine or nitric levels in check it will save you money on additional chemicals such as thiosulfate or urea.
> 
> The addition of more SMB may have very well had the same effect as the addition of thiosulfate.
> 
> Steve


 No doubt that's true Steve, but if you're doing an HCL+Clorox leach on let's say crushed ore and the clorox is acting not only as a lixiviant but also as an oxidant to maintain adequate ORP levels, (800-900mv) then how can one possibly hold back on the amount one adds? Alternatively if one is doing a leach with HCL + salt + oxidizer (CL, monopersulfate, ozone, hydrogen peroxide, etc.) then the amount of chlorine "added" is totally dependent on the amount of oxidizer used and that depends on the ORP once again. Hence, my dilemma.... I see no way around ending up with a pregnant liquor at the end of the day that has only a minimum of chlorine in it. Then again, if I decide to use ion exchange resin beads to capture the values then it doesn't matter about the chlorine. The more the merrier


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## Palladium (Mar 15, 2009)

Jeff,

You seem to like liquid chemicals.
I see your trying to leach gold ores. Have you thought of this ?

Try a pretreatment of PEROXONE after roasting to finish the oxidation of any un oxidized refractory ores. Then used Cl gas Or Cl gas dissolved in water to leach the gold. Both have different characteristics according to what you are trying to adapt it to. The same also holds true with ozone, but add a little H2O2 to the situation and the rules change yet again with ozone included. If you use ozone you will need about 20 feet of contact time for the ozone and I can't remember about the Cl.

Somewhat like the Platt Kiss method. You could produce the gas with nothing more than the Chloralkali process method. All you need for any of this is electricity ,salt, and water.

I've been doing a lot of research into this avenue and will try my own little experiment one of these days. :wink:


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## jsargent (Mar 16, 2009)

Palladium said:


> Jeff,
> 
> You seem to like liquid chemicals.
> I see your trying to leach gold ores. Have you thought of this ?
> ...



Thanks for the suggestions Palladium. If money were no object I would give peroxone a shot... but ozone generators are prohibitively expensive for the quantity of ozone I need. Trying to keep things simple. The idea of using only HCL and graphite electrodes to produce chlorine is about the simplest method I've run across. No added chlorine or other oxidizer to buy and I would guess simple control of the ORP via adjustment of the current. If I use resin beads in pulp then I don't even have to mess with precipitation, plus resin in pulp appears to be beneficial for the carbonaceous ore I am blessed/cursed with.


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