# Pyrolyzing chips



## bswartzwelder (Jun 26, 2013)

Hi All,

I have a couple of gallon jars filled with CPU's, memory, North Bridge and South Bridge chips and quite an array of other black chips. I would like to build a device to allow me to reduce them easily and cheaply to the gray white ash that Patnor has demonstrated. Where I live, I don't have a ready source of coal, so my fuel of choice will be charcoal. To boost the output temperature, I plan to introduce extra air. Below, are my thoughts. Any criticism or ideas are welcome. I love to build things.

Every time I'm near a garage sale, flea market, or second hand store, I always look for cheap coffee makers with a lid that opens exposing the filter area, blow dryers, and Corningware dishes. I plan to make this device as a two piece unit. The bottom will house the firebox, the top will hold the Corningware dish. The Corningware dishes I have are approximately 3 inches deep and 7 inches square.

The entire unit will be constructed out of 1/4 inch steel plate and welded together. The top, since this will be the easiest, will be a 1/4 inch thick steel box (with an open top) just slightly larger than the dish but not as tall. The dish will sit down into it with the handles exposed above the rim. Onto the bottom, I'll weld some 1/4 inch by 1.25 inch steel rectangular bars oriented on end. They will all be parallel and will extend past the sides of the upper box. Their purposes are to put a space between the upper box and the bottom of the unit to provide a solid base which will rest on the bottom. As an added benefit, they will divert the hot gasses out to the left and right away from the person operating the unit. Should the Corningware dish break, everything will be contained within the steel box. 

The bottom (combustion chamber) will be constructed slightly larger in outside dimensions than the top unit. This will allow me to line the inside of the lower unit with some form of refractory material or fire bricks. I will drill two holes on opposing sides near the bottom to allow the air manifold to pass through. It is very easy to cut, drill and sand firebricks so this makes the job a simple one. The air manifold will consist of two pieces of pipe with a series of small holes drilled into them. There will be two rows of holes on each pipe. One row facing straight up and the other rows slanted slightly towards the center of the combustion chamber. Outside of the combustion chamber, on one end, the pipes will be joined to a single inlet pipe. The opposite ends will be capped off. The single inlet pipe will be large enough to allow a blow dryer nozzle to fit inside. The entire combustion chamber will sit on three legs long enough to allow air circulation under the unit and make fitting up the blow dryer easy. I am not certain of the height of the unit, but it will determine the amount of charcoal which can be used. Two handles will be added to facilitate carrying the lower unit WHEN COOL.

I have built a small forge from a 20 pound propane cylinder based on this design and can verify I have heated a 1/4 inch by 3 inch wide steel bar to a bright red temperature after only a few minutes of sitting on the open top of the unit. My idea is to pyrolize chips not boil off the gold inside of them. Comments?


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 26, 2013)

bswartzwelder,

If I understand your description correctly, you're not building a pyrolyzer.


bswartzwelder said:


> The top, since this will be the easiest, will be a 1/4 inch thick steel box (with an open top) just slightly larger than the dish but not as tall. The dish will sit down into it with the handles exposed above the rim.


Pyrolysis takes place when there is little or no oxygen present when the material is heated. With an open top, oxygen will join the reaction and you will be incinerating instead of pyrolyzing. This will allow large quantities of toxic gasses to escape into the atmosphere.

To be environmentaly responsible, the chips should first be pyrolyzed, _then_ incinerated. When you pyrolyze the chips you will drive off the volatile compounds in the various epoxies and plastics, leaving you with metals and carbonaceous materials. When you incinerate the remains in open air, you will further break down the carbonaceous compounds with the aid of oxygen.

To pyrolyze the material, your upper box should have a tight fitting lid to exclude additional air from entering the box during the first phase, but with a small opening or tube to allow the heated gasses to escape the box. This still creates the toxic gasses, but since the box is sealed, you have control over them. These gasses should then be burned to decompose them into less harmful components. This can be accomplished by directing the gasses, via the tube, back down into your lower box and into the fire which will act as somewhat of an afterburner.

Once the material has been pyrolyzed, the box can be opened to allow oxygen to enter to complete the incineration of the carbonaceous materials that remain.

Do a search for pyrolysis by author NoIdea. Deano is our resident expert on pyrolysis, and has made numerous excellent posts on the subject. He has drawn up some very useful diagrams to illustrate his designs.

Dave


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## bswartzwelder (Jun 26, 2013)

Making an almost airtight lid would pose some problems. Having said that, it might not be too difficult to make a fairly tight lid and reburn the fumes. The inlet to the blow dryer could actually help suck the escaping fumes for reburning. Otherwise, looks like another idea goes down the drain. Thank you.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 26, 2013)

A tight lid is better than no lid. A home built unit will probably never eliminate 100% of the fumes. Minimizing them is the goal. No reason to abandon the idea, just tweak it a bit.

Dave


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 26, 2013)

Be careful. If the off gases are hot and well-confined and are allowed to mix with oxygen, an explosion can occur. I've seen it happen.


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## mls26cwru (Jun 26, 2013)

bswartzwelder said:


> Making an almost airtight lid would pose some problems. Having said that, it might not be too difficult to make a fairly tight lid and reburn the fumes. The inlet to the blow dryer could actually help suck the escaping fumes for reburning. Otherwise, looks like another idea goes down the drain. Thank you.



i don't think there is a need to 'suck' the fumes out... in fact that might be extremely dangerous. the pressure of the gasses evolving will create a positive pressure in the unit and 'push' the gas out the exhaust line. 

if you suck the fumes out you have two problems... first the gases are going to be VERY hot so what ever you use will have to withstand the high temperature. Second, and more importantly, if you create a negative pressure in the unit, this could suck oxygen into the unit anywhere it is not air tight... and mixing oxygen with extremely hot and volatile gasses is never good. just my two cents.


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## mls26cwru (Jun 26, 2013)

goldsilverpro said:


> Be careful. If the off gases are hot and well-confined and are allowed to mix with oxygen, an explosion can occur. I've seen it happen.



Damn it GSP! you beat me to it!


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## bswartzwelder (Jun 27, 2013)

OK, THANKS. The idea is not dead, just back to the research phase. I assume the small size of my device will mean that the off gasses produced will not be in a huge billowing cloud. Using a blow dryer poses one problem, that being it has no real speed control. That was a problem with my little forge, but I got around it by cycling the blow dryer on and off. I am going to see if I can adjust the speed with a light dimmer. If not, I have a rather bulky Variac which should do the trick. I do not plan to use the heating element in the blow dryer, only the fan, so the current drawn will be minimal.

If I make a lid which covers everything (upper box and Corningware dish), I can mount it such that screws will hold it relatively tightly when in use. Next, drill a hole in the center of the lid and weld some piping to it. Have the piping extend down to near the bottom of the combustion chamber. The natural suction (chimney effect) of the burning charcoal should suck the fumes into the combustion chamber where they will be drawn up through the burning charcoal. Once the fire is hot enough to pyrolyze the chips, it should be hot enough to act like an afterburner for the toxic gasses. When the gasses are no longer produced, I could remove the lid and continue with incinerating. I hope this sounds better.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 27, 2013)

https://www.google.com/search?q=pyrolysis+oxygen+explosion&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a


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## bswartzwelder (Jun 27, 2013)

Thank you, GSP. The only oxygen available will be what gets sucked into or forced by the fan into the combustion chamber. I will not add any additional O2 to the chips being pyrolyzed. With the unit up and running, the off gasses will be reintroduced into the combustion chamber in a slow, stream. I wouldn't think there would be an accumulation. Also, the top of the combustion chamber is open to the atmosphere with the heat escaping through the slots made by the .25 inch by 1.25 inch rectangular steel bars standing on end. Since the top is essentially open, there shouldn't be any way for pressure to build up.


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## bswartzwelder (Jun 29, 2013)

I have started purchasing parts to fabricate my pyrolyzer/incinerator. I was able to purchase fire bricks at a local True Value store. Now I have a basis for the dimensions when building the combustion chamber. I already had 2 1.5 quart square Corningware dishes without lids, so I now have a basis for the top chamber as well. Now, a tablet of graph paper, ruler, and calculator will let me get serious. 

I DO NOT want to MINIMIZE the importance of dealing with the toxic fumes given off. But after seeing a couple of specials on TV this afternoon dealing with live volcanoes, the amount of toxic gasses produced by EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM combined in 1 year would be less than that produced by mother nature in five minutes (probably less than 1 minute) of volcanic eruption. I agree it would be irresponsible not to make an honest effort to control these fumes, so please don't get the wrong impression. However, in the larger scheme of things, anything WE produce would be totally insignificant by comparison. As I build my pyrolyzer/incinerator, I plan to take photos to show the design.


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## JHS (Jun 29, 2013)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=6156


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 23, 2013)

The pyrolyzer/incinerator has hit a snag. I spent quite a few hours calculating the sizes of steel plates and other items needed and put everything into a Microsoft Word file. I was going to fax the parts list to my steel supplier in a couple of days, but before I could do that, my computer was infected with a virus. It doesn't appear the shop where I took it was able to salvage any of my files. In fact, the computer is in worse shape now than it was when they got it. If I can get my files back, I'll order parts and get restarted. If not, it's back to the drawing board. I'll post puictures if/when they become available.


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## chlaurite (Jul 23, 2013)

I posted a rough schematic for a two-phase pyrolyzer/incinerator a while back, but still haven't built it. Honestly, I think NoIdea's design seems the most fool-proof in its straight-forwardness: Minus the whole refractory chimney part of it, you take a steel can, fill it with chips, seal it (fold-and-crimp should suffice), and poke a tiny hole in the bottom. Toss it in a good hot fire (hole-side down). Escaping gasses burn up nicely, no oxygen gets to the chips, you end up with chip-shaped-coke plus metals.

That takes care of the actual pyrolysis. For the incineration phase, you can more-or-less safely do that in open-air, since it won't out-gas all the really really nasty chemicals you already got rid of via pyrolysis.


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 24, 2013)

I really like the simplicity of that idea. Unfortunately, I live in a development where it would be next to impossible for me to build a fire. A small pyrolyzer which I can roll in and out of my garage on casters will fit the bill nicely. My closest neighbors are gone most of the time, so if I didn't want to be environmentally responsible, I could probably pull it off. That's not my way, so I'll either redesign my unit or wait until I hear from Office Depot. 

I took in my computer with a virus. It would boot up in safe mode. First charge was $157 for diagnostics and repair. They told me the operating system had been corrupted and needed an/the original installation disk. Another $130 on eBay to get new installation disk. Computer had a RAID array with two hard drives (mirror image of each other). They separated the hard drives and put one away while they tried to repair the Windows installation on the other hard drive. Told me it appeared Windows had been reinstalled on the second hard drive. Next, they told me the BIOS in the computer appears to be bad because the computer will go through the POST but cannot find the one hard drive connected to it. They cannot do anything else to fix it. Told me they could get all my data files off the second hard drive, but I had to buy a 1 terabyte external hard drive (Cost for everything to backup $130). Picked up everything and went home. I had a brand new computer sitting in the box for 1.5 years and finally decided to set it up. Got it set up and connected the external hard drive. NO FILES backed up to it. Took external hard drive and computer back yesterday and they admitted it had no files on it. At 3:30, they said it would take a couple of hours to back up ALL the files on the old hard drive. Once again, I expected a call yesterday evening to pick them up, but the call never came. Today, I'll pay them a visit. They have been working on this problem since July 8 and it's still not resolved.


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 24, 2013)

I really like the simplicity of that idea. Unfortunately, I live in a development where it would be next to impossible for me to build a fire. A small pyrolyzer which I can roll in and out of my garage on casters will fit the bill nicely. My closest neighbors are gone most of the time, so if I didn't want to be environmentally responsible, I could probably pull it off. That's not my way, so I'll either redesign my unit or wait until I hear from Office Depot. 

I took in my computer with a virus. It would boot up in safe mode. First charge was $157 for diagnostics and repair. They told me the operating system had been corrupted and needed an/the original installation disk. Another $130 on eBay to get new installation disk. Computer had a RAID array with two hard drives (mirror image of each other). They separated the hard drives and put one away while they tried to repair the Windows installation on the other hard drive. Told me it appeared Windows had been reinstalled on the second hard drive. Next, they told me the BIOS in the computer appears to be bad because the computer will go through the POST but cannot find the one hard drive connected to it. They cannot do anything else to fix it. Told me they could get all my data files off the second hard drive, but I had to buy a 1 terabyte external hard drive (Cost for everything to backup $130). Picked up everything and went home. I had a brand new computer sitting in the box for 1.5 years and finally decided to set it up. Got it set up and connected the external hard drive. NO FILES backed up to it. Took external hard drive and computer back yesterday and they admitted it had no files on it. At 3:30, they said it would take a couple of hours to back up ALL the files on the old hard drive. Once again, I expected a call yesterday evening to pick them up, but the call never came. Today, I'll pay them a visit. They have been working on this problem since July 8 and it's still not resolved.


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## jimdoc (Jul 24, 2013)

bswartzwelder said:


> I really like the simplicity of that idea. Unfortunately, I live in a development where it would be next to impossible for me to build a fire. A small pyrolyzer which I can roll in and out of my garage on casters will fit the bill nicely. My closest neighbors are gone most of the time, so if I didn't want to be environmentally responsible, I could probably pull it off. That's not my way, so I'll either redesign my unit or wait until I hear from Office Depot.
> 
> I took in my computer with a virus. It would boot up in safe mode. First charge was $157 for diagnostics and repair. They told me the operating system had been corrupted and needed an/the original installation disk. Another $130 on eBay to get new installation disk. Computer had a RAID array with two hard drives (mirror image of each other). They separated the hard drives and put one away while they tried to repair the Windows installation on the other hard drive. Told me it appeared Windows had been reinstalled on the second hard drive. Next, they told me the BIOS in the computer appears to be bad because the computer will go through the POST but cannot find the one hard drive connected to it. They cannot do anything else to fix it. Told me they could get all my data files off the second hard drive, but I had to buy a 1 terabyte external hard drive (Cost for everything to backup $130). Picked up everything and went home. I had a brand new computer sitting in the box for 1.5 years and finally decided to set it up. Got it set up and connected the external hard drive. NO FILES backed up to it. Took external hard drive and computer back yesterday and they admitted it had no files on it. At 3:30, they said it would take a couple of hours to back up ALL the files on the old hard drive. Once again, I expected a call yesterday evening to pick them up, but the call never came. Today, I'll pay them a visit. They have been working on this problem since July 8 and it's still not resolved.




You should look into Ubuntu, Linux Mint, or some other Linux operating system.

Jim


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## chlaurite (Jul 24, 2013)

Totally irrelevant aside, but for Windows, you pay for the* license*. Microsoft doesn't care in the least about owning a copy of the installation media (and businesses usually don't even buy the media, they just pay by the purely-virtual license).

If you can borrow an installation disc (for the same version, so "win 7 home" needs a "win 7 home" disc) from someone, just use the key on the sticker on your PC's case and you can legally reinstall it without paying into the "with media" scam. FWIW, the repair shop knows that, but honestly, I can't blame them for the fee because it will take a good amount of (admittedly unattended) time to do.


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 25, 2013)

I returned my computer and the external hard drive to Office Depot. The hard drives were mounted in a removable cage so they just took out the one which had never been changed by trying to reinstall XP Pro. Then, they hooked the external hard drive and the old hard drive (in an adapter module) to a laptop and tried to start a backup. Something wasn't working and the tech put his finger on the hard drive. There was no vibration, so it wasn't running. A little troubleshooting revealed a power cord connector to the module wasn't making good contact. After jiggling it around, the drive came to life. He did delete all the factory installed software on the external hard drive (I guess to make it less confusing for me), and then started the file transfer. Said it would take a while maybe 2 to 3 hours (that was 3:30 PM) on Tuesday and that he would call me when it was finished. Got the call on Wednesday at 10:11 AM. So much for 2 to 3 hours. He backed up EVERY file on the hard drive, which is all I ever really wanted in the first place. I had to purchase Microsoft Office, but I did that when I originally purchased the new computer. Since I got everything back, I moved my old "Favorites" to the new computer and many of the Microsoft Word documents. I have made several hard copies of the parts needed for my pyrolyzer design and plan on ordering steel later today. I would like to be locked (with my Glock 45) in a room with the people who make these malicious programs.

If anyone else ever sees "System Care Antivirus" come up on their monitor, shut down the computer immediately. Then restart the computer (in safe mode) and select you want to start with the last known good installation, or an installation which is a week or 2 old. I heard this from 2 people. From there, you can easily get rid of the virus. I hope nobody ever has to do this, but the virus is an old one making a fresh comeback.

Now, back to my pyrolyzer. Thanks to everyone who offered assistance.

Bert


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## Pantherlikher (Jul 25, 2013)

Just a quick note...
We all work with computers of some type. Alot of us know alot about them as well...I for 1 have installed a virus or 2 just to see how they work and how to remove them...
Before the major $$$ waste by taking to a "pro" which is only someone you pay to screw up.... Ask...Simply ask.

Take infected drive out, take an old PC with windows and antivirus. Plug infected drive in and run a scan/clean on the infected. After that, copy all wanted/needed files. Then preplace drive in PC and see if windows survived the attack...

"Backing up" of a hard drive entails copying everything...virus included...
I often plug a drive in and see what's on it. I like finding funny pictures but everything gets destroyed after that. You would be suprised at how personal information gets stolen when you don't destroy it yourself...

B.S.
...It is illogical to think most people can think logically as a computer does...


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## rickbb (Jul 25, 2013)

MS now has a downloadable program that will make an up to date and bootable CD with the latest AV/maleware scanning and removing program.

You run the program on a seperate PC, it downloads the latest deffs and burns a bootable CDR/DVD-R. You use that to boot the infected PC and it runs and cleans any hard drive in the system.


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## 924T (Jul 26, 2013)

chlaurite, 

I've searched 3 times today for noidea's post about pyrolizing with a steel can with 
a hole in the bottom------I've completely struck out.

Do you have a ling, or know of the correct search term to find that post?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Mike


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## chlaurite (Jul 26, 2013)

924T said:


> I've searched 3 times today for noidea's post about pyrolizing with a steel can with
> a hole in the bottom------I've completely struck out.



Hmm... Took me a while to find too: 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16473&p=166282

A bit more complex than I remembered it (not sure why I remembered it as a can-with-a-hole in it), but you can see the basic design in his schematic near the bottom of the page.


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 26, 2013)

One thing Deano has said, is to put a little water (maybe a couple of tablespoons, (don't really remember how much) of water into the bottom of your semi sealed can before you start to pyrolyze. There have been documented explosions from the oxygen in the air combining with the gasses produced by the pyrolysis process. Anyhow, as the water flashes to steam, it increases in volume quite significantly. Again, I can't remember the ratio because the last course I had in nuclear engineering or thermodynamics was in 1986. As the water flashes to steam, the steam fills the container and drives out the air (and oxygen) from inside the container. No oxygen, no explosion, and this happens at a temperature right around 212 degrees F. Once all the water has flashed to steam, the inside temperature will start to climb. I don't know if regulating the temperature is critical, but I suspect it is not as long as the gold doesn't vaporize or the steel making up your pyrolyzer doesn't melt.

I called my local steel supplier yesterday and he gave me his fax number for ordering steel. I dialed it up and got some kind of verbal message saying the line was not usable because of problems on the phone company side. Called him back and learned the phone company building where a lot of the switching takes place took a direct lightning hit. Mother nature 1, phone company 0. He did have his phone service and email service restored, so I retyped my list and emailed it to him. He said his fax had been down for 3 or 4 days as they try to make repairs. Would have liked seeing that hit (from a safe distance, of course). I'm also going to order 3 casters today so I'll be able to move this thing around easily.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 26, 2013)

I did a simple version of that system, two steel cans, one larger than the other. The smaller one stuffed with IC:s and the bigger one turned upside down used as a lid. The gases are forced down to the lower edge and passed through the fire on it's way up again.

It works perfectly for pyrolyzing and I got very little smoke from it when the cans were covered by the fire.
After all gases were gone I just removed the top, but the deep can didn't get a lot of oxygen. After a long time in the fire and even trying to blow air down into the can I still got a lot of carbon in the IC:s. I think that the next time I will transfer the material to a shallow stainless pan for the final incineration.

I had an old stainless coffee thermos that I cut in half, the bottom part became my cans. A plus is that the smaller one is all smooth so there are no place where gold can be stuck.

There are a lot of things that can be improved in this system, a sieve for example, for easily shaking off the ash while incinerating. The ash hinders the oxygen to reach the parts still heavy in carbon.

Göran


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## 924T (Jul 27, 2013)

Chlaurite,

Thanks for going to the time and trouble to ferret out that link for me!

I had seen NoIdea's post quite a while ago, and thought his solution was quite ingenious.

Now that I've seen it again, I've got some thinking to do, because g_axelsson's 2 cans approach would
be easier for me to put together.

Cheers,

Mike


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## 924T (Jul 27, 2013)

g_axelsson,

I'm leaning towards experimenting with your 2-can approach to pyrolizing, for 2 reasons: I'm not very mechanically
inclined, so it would be quicker and easier for me to work with the cans than to try to duplicate NoIdea's tank with
a tube running out of it,

and, if it blows up from explosive PVC gasses, I think the odds are that the top can would go vertical, and there wouldn't be any shrapnel, which is a plus.

The last time we were communicating, you were telling me about stepping out of your car and sinking up to your waist
in snow, if I remember correctly (that was right before I was dragged away from forum activity by some family issues
for 4 months).

So, to catch back up a bit, all I can tell you about snow that deep is: that's more snow than I think I could handle.
Here, in northern Illinois, if we get a 16" snowfall, it literally shuts the town down for a day or so. By contrast, even
farther north, in Minneapolis, Minnesota, they've got the appropriately heavy-duty equipment to deal with really
deep snow, and handle it with aplomb.

Up-to-your-waist is a lot of snow!

Cheers,

Mike


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 27, 2013)

The double can idea seems like a good one. Always someone on the forum thinking "out of the box". Goran, I might have missed it, but what are you using to fire your pyrolyzer? I not only have a lot of black chips from all different types of circuit boards, but about a gallon of the green fiber CPU chips. I remember someone posting how they did the green chips, but do not remember the specifics. Look out search bar (HUGE SMILE)!

I moved from SW Pennsylvania to Southern Maryland in 1986. We seldom get snow anymore and usually it melts within a couple of days. However, there are a lot of people living here who have never driven on snow. They are such poor drivers, they can barely manage a wet road. If the weather report says we can expect snow, schools announce they will close down the night before. MANY times, the kids have had a day off when not a single snowflake hit the ground. We have even had several rather deep (18 inch) snowfalls which shut things down for almost a week. I live in a development and share a common driveway with 4 or 5 other families. When I worked for a major airline, it was imperative that I gave it my best shot to get to work, so I bought a snow thrower. All my neighbors are much younger and in better health than I am, but since I purchased the equipment, they all feel it is my obligation to dig them out. Now that I'm retired and have had both knees replaced, they may be in for a shock. I no longer have a NEED to get out. 

Bert

P.S. You guys can have ALL the snow.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 27, 2013)

No snow here today! +25 C and a wonderful summers day, only drawback is that my filters and solutions is drying up all the time. 8) 

For heating my can incinerator I just made a fire by stacking some wood I got from some pallets my boss wanted to get rid off. I packed it around the can inside an iron bucket (aproximately 5 liter) and set it on fire. There were no explosion, just a little bit of black smoke when the fire died down a bit. Some more planks took care of that. I also used a hot air gun to blow air into the fire, with the added air at 500 C it really burned fast... :twisted: 

It's still a bit rough, but I have done it twice now. I'm going to make an inset in coarse stainless wire mesh so I can remove the ash during the incineration but keep any chips that still hangs together. The IC:s that is already incinerated is easily crushed in smaller pieces by shaking the can. It actually looked like I managed to burn away the base metal in the legs of some IC:s.

I haven't processed that material yet but as this is my first day of vacation it is close now... 8) 

Göran


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## freechemist (Jul 29, 2013)

*Rickbb writes:*


> MS now has a downloadable program that will make an up to date and bootable CD with the latest AV/maleware scanning and removing program.



What about the latest AV/femaleware scanning and removing program?


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## rickbb (Jul 29, 2013)

freechemist said:


> *Rickbb writes:*
> 
> 
> > MS now has a downloadable program that will make an up to date and bootable CD with the latest AV/maleware scanning and removing program.
> ...




:lol: I'm keeping that one a secret until the patent comes through. :lol:


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 29, 2013)

Just one letter in a misspelled word and you guy jump all over it. Gotta love it.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 29, 2013)

I talked about that in my thread. You need to use shallow containers to get IC properly incinerated. I use totally inexpensive containers - iron casing from CD/DVD ROM. They are good to fire several times but I have steady supply of them.
Legs often end up "burned off" or lets say disappear but you will find them later on at washing stage in form of small metallic balls.
While I feel partially responsible to using word "pyrolysing" we should really stop using it. None of us is able to pyrolyze his material. 
What we do is - incinerating. :mrgreen:


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 29, 2013)

Patnor,

I have to respectfully disagree with you. When chips are put into a closed or semi-closed system (where oxygen cannot enter) and are heated until they no longer give off toxic fumes, I believe that is the process of pyrolyzing. Inverting one can over a second can with chips in it, and placing that on a fire, should also be considered pyrolyzing since there is no real supply of oxygen. The author(s) of that email said the lower edge of the outer can is completely below the flames. Once pyrolyzed, if the chips are once again heated hot enough in the presence of oxygen, they turn into the grayish/white ash and are considered incinerated. Perhaps my understanding of the definitions is not correct.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 29, 2013)

We did have discussion about this way back.
Pyrolysis is not only about lack of oxygen. Pressure, temperature control and final output all this define pyrolysis. 
What we want to achieve here is simply mass reduction, we turn IC in ash. You do not eliminate oxygen by simply covering one container by another. 
I must agree that pyrolysis sound cool and term is somehow sticky but at the end of the day what we do is just what it is - incineration.

From EPA definition of pyrolysis:
" For a process to be recognized as pyrolysis by the U.S. EPA, there can be no visible flame within the pyrolysis chamber. In essence, a pyrolysis chamber must be a sealed chamber heated by an external source that transfers heat into the chamber by meticulously controlled conduction and convection. Organic materials decompose gently over time. "


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## solar_plasma (Jul 30, 2013)

Both of you are right. 



There is a definated purposely managed process called pyrolysis. And pyrolytic decomposations will almost always occur when you burn organics, since you can't provide an optimum of oxigen, except your system is purposely built to do so.

Incinerate chips and there will always be some, which are still black, but can easily be crushed to powder, - there the pyrolytic decomposation predominated.

When a house is burning, it takes about 10-17 minutes of pyrolysis to get the temperature and the gasses for the roll-over, which will be the start of incineration of that house. It is minute number 14, we try to extinguish the incipient fire, which mostly can be done with under 60 litres and no water caused damages.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 30, 2013)

Partly I agree with you patnor, whenever I see someone mention pyrolyzing in the wrong way I correct them, but that is always when it is mentioned for the whole process. The end goal is to incinerate the material.

But as so many topics and methods on the forum, it starts out as a simple idea, then people does a lot of trials, new ideas appears and finally we got a process that works better and is easier to manage for the home refiner.

Ideally I would have access to an incinerator with an afterburner that keeps the gases at an elevated temperature with excess of oxygen. (plans and discussions about this option exists on the forum) But that is too big to be practical for the small amounts of IC:s I process.
For me I found out that to keep down the smoke I could just bury a pair of cans inside a fire and most of the gases released are burned inside the fire. This step is by all definitions pyrolyzation. The IC:s comes out black and charred, tin on the legs is still shiny. The next step is to incinerate the charred IC:s to get that fine ashy state that is easily processed. This I can do in an open vessel as there are no more smoke given off from the material. (I have to work some more on this part to get it more effective.)

So to me I'm doing it in a two step process, pyrolyzation drives off the toxic gases in a controlled way, incineration with added air turns the charred components into ash, metal oxides, a silicon die and precious metals.

Patnor, Any chance that the metallic balls you find is the remainders of palladium and silver brazes used to attach the die to the lead frame or solder? You shouldn't reach temperatures high enough to melt copper or iron so any lost legs should either be alloyed with solder or turned into oxides.

Göran

(edit: speeling mistake)


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## patnor1011 (Jul 30, 2013)

They would be remnants of legs and solder. Only metal outside resin, exposed to fire. Whatever is inside close to die is still there. From time to time I encounter Intel IC which do have considerable amount of tin inside resin, I observed it several times to spill out from chip. But as I said that small balls are mostly and bits of legs from thin legs variety.
I try to remove legs as I am harvesting IC from boards by cutting them but sometimes when I buy some IC or process for somebody they usually do come with legs and they sometimes (thin ones) end up as small spheres.


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## maynman1751 (Jul 30, 2013)

> This I can do in an open wessel (actually spelled weasel) as there are no more smoke given off from the material.



How do you open your weasel? 
Sorry! Couldn,t help myself. :lol:


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## Geo (Jul 30, 2013)

this discussion is redundant. there is a clear distinction between pyrolisis and incinerating. pyrolizing is literally baking the oils out without flame touching the item. if you heat an item until all thats left is carbon, that can be considered pyrolizing. incineration is using a direct flame in the presence of oxygen to convert carbon to carbon dioxide. if you are left with carbon, its pyrolizing. if you have no carbon left, its incineration.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 30, 2013)

maynman1751 said:


> > This I can do in an open wessel (actually spelled weasel) as there are no more smoke given off from the material.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is much safer to open a wessel than a weasel... unless you pyrolyze the weasel first. :lol: 

Thanks for catching my spelling error, I always use the Preview button and catch a lot of my errors before submitting, but this one weaseled past my check!

Göran


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 31, 2013)

Picked up the steel yesterday, and wanted to start with it today, but on Saturday I got a present in the mail from the IRS. Have to spend today at the tax preparers office. :^(

Bert


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 31, 2013)

I wish you the best of luck. I have had 2 very negative experiences with them.  

Dave


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## ilikesilver (Aug 25, 2013)

I will agree, this is kinda a off topic to keep talking about. I hate throw my two cents in. But were all trying to get to the BEST way to do this, and keeping in mind our enviroment and health to everyone. I built a forge off from youtube out of firebrick but i doubled the size of what they had designed, i added a port for my permanent LP gas, and a extra port for forced air. i cant complain how it works, it aint great, it does incinerate the chips, but it definately does not pyrolize anything. The amount of soot is kept to a minimum, and believe me if it isnt, i would have my neighbors calling the police on me. I had tried the double can setup in my driveway in a old portable round bbq with natural lump charcoal, i did N/S bridges in it, about two pounds, and it took me all day to do them, and there was quite a bit of smoke and soot, i had a hard time controlling it and getting it hot enough to do the job. so i built the small firebrick forge, like i said its not perfect, but it works a lot better, and i control the heat and that things gets hot. I incinerated chips today, about 5 pounds of midgrade, and it worked great, ive been panning for three hours trying to get all the gold out, and still have more to do tomorrow, not my fortey by the way, still need to learn more on panning. by the way, all these mid grade chips were from the late 1980s, so im expecting a higher than normal yeald for these types. tim


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## bswartzwelder (Sep 19, 2013)

Well...I took the little black pieces left over from my Acid/Chlorox mess and placed them in a crucible. I purchased some 4 inch black pipe and made a totally enclosed "holder" for the crucible. Then I started up some charcoal and placed it in the old home made forge I had in my garage. Suspended the crucible holder into the forge and filled the remainder with charcoal. Next, I connected a blow dryer (from a flea market) to the air supply pipe and turned it on (no heat, low fan setting). Did all the work outside in my driveway for safety reasons.

Things were heating up nicely until the thermal overload on the blow dryer detected too much heat and shut the dryer down. Now I know why it was being sold at the flea market. After it cooled a little, I turned it back on and it worked fine for about 3 minutes. Another cool down period and I turned the heat setting from cool to hot and left the fan speed on high. This time it tripped out after less than 30 seconds. I wish I could remember who was selling this thing because I would let them know what I thought of their sales ethics. No one ever mentioned there was a problem with it, but they had to know there was.

I grabbed a second blow dryer and continued firing the forge. I switched the fan speed to high and the heat really began to build up. The "holder" got red hot, and then the bottom actually started to turn almost yellow. I lifted the lid off the holder and saw the flux inside the crucible hadn't completely melted. Put the lid back on and continued with the heating, adding fresh charcoal as the ones in the forge burned down. After about an hour of subjecting things to this heat, I once again lifted off the lid. To my surprise there was a puddle in the bottom of the crucible, but the flux stuck to the sides (from a previous melt) was still intact. The heat in this little forge had done something to the crucible whereby it was "stuck" to the bottom half of the holder. A little prying broke it loose. 

I then set the holder down on a piece of refractory brick and set the crucible directly on the burning charcoal. Soon, the entire crucible was glowing red, and this time when I pulled it out, the little lumps on the side from the previous melt had flowed back down and into the bottom of the crucible. I poured the contents into a cast iron conical mold and covered it to allow it to cool undisturbed. Later, I dumped out the cool cone. I then broke off the flux. It had a nice shiny gold color in some areas, but looked silvery in other areas. I suspect some lead may have been in the flux I used, so I'll try to dissolve the lead before further processing the cone.

I have learned several things from this experience. 1. NEVER trust the sellers at a flea market when you buy something that cannot be tested on the spot. 2. In my pyrolyzer design, I was going to place the chips to be incinerated in a pyroceram Corning ware dish, and put that dish into the upper chamber of my pyrolyzer. I doubt there will be enough heat to properly pyrolyze the chips inside the dish, so I'll most likely just put the chips inside the upper unit without the dish. 3. I thought I would need a speed control for the blow dryer. Wrong. I do not need to control the temperature down to a few degrees. The two speeds of the blow dryer will be sufficient for my pyrolyzer. 4. If anything, I will need still more air supplied to the combustion chamber, so I'll be adding a second blow dryer to the design.

Yesterday, I went out and bought two very inexpensive blow dryers for my newest pyrolyzer design. They are identical and each has 2 fan speeds. So, in essence, I will have a grand total of 6 different air flow speeds going into the pyrolyzer when it is finished. They can both be off, or on low speed, or both on high speed for the maximum air delivery (or any combination of speeds). The pyrolyzer is coming close to completion and I hope to post pictures of it at that time. As with most newly designed things, a lot of thought went into this, but there are still some minor issues to work out.


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