# AP



## depperl001 (May 3, 2010)

Hi,
Can anybody tell me why Hcl and H2O2 should turn red when first mixed together in a clean glass container? from the videos from lazersteve, I most sincerely thank you for them and all the other info that you and all other members of this forum have made available, the mixture should stay clear until you put something in it to react with.

Thanks in advance,
depperl001


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## Oz (May 3, 2010)

Either the glass container was not clean or you have contaminates in your HCl or H2O2, where did you get your chemicals?

I have never seen that reaction.


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## lazersteve (May 3, 2010)

Some brands of HCl contain dissolved iron which may turn red when peroxide is added.

Steve


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## depperl001 (May 3, 2010)

Oz said:


> Either the glass container was not clean or you have contaminates in your HCl or H2O2, where did you get your chemicals?
> 
> I have never seen that reaction.



Hi Steve,

HCL came from Home Hardware, in R'ton; H2O2 came from chemist. Should I complain or just try elsewhere.
Thank you and oz for your quick answers, youlearn something new every day on this forum.

Regards,
depperl001


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## goldsilverpro (May 3, 2010)

If, as Steve said, the color is caused by iron impurities, I don't think this would cause problems. I would study the mechanism of what is happening, rather than minor colors, I think you would be better off. I know that colors are important, but they're not the end all. The most important thing are the end results. Although it may sound foolish, I did this for 40 years and, except in certain situations, I paid little attention to colors. Proper colors only occur with pure chemicals reacting on pure metals.


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## depperl001 (May 12, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> Some brands of HCl contain dissolved iron which may turn red when peroxide is added.
> 
> Steve



Hi Steve,

How do I get rid of the iron and what, if any, effect will it have on solutions?

Regards,

deppperl001


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## lazersteve (May 12, 2010)

As GSP sated above, this shouldn't be a problem with dissolving reaction, but I wouldn't use the HCl for the final wash of my refined gold.

Distillation may help purify the HCl. Considering the low cost of HCl I would just buy another brand of fresh HCl and be done with it. Use the other dirty stuff for something else.

Steve


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## depperl001 (May 12, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> As GSP sated above, this shouldn't be a problem with dissolving reaction, but I wouldn't use the HCl for the final wash of my refined gold.
> 
> Distillation may help purify the HCl. Considering the low cost of HCl I would just buy another brand of fresh HCl and be done with it. Use the other dirty stuff for something else.
> 
> Steve



Thanks Steve,

The only problem with that is that all the Hardware stores in this one horse town all stock the same brand, and it isn't cheap, A$12.60/2L. 

regards,
depperl001


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## depperl001 (May 12, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> If, as Steve said, the color is caused by iron impurities, I don't think this would cause problems. I would study the mechanism of what is happening, rather than minor colors, I think you would be better off. I know that colors are important, but they're not the end all. The most important thing are the end results. Although it may sound foolish, I did this for 40 years and, except in certain situations, I paid little attention to colors. Proper colors only occur with pure chemicals reacting on pure metals.



Thank you for your Answer, I seem to have missed it on the first reading, my apologies,

Regards, 
Depperl001


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## Chumbawamba (May 21, 2010)

Just out of intellectual curiosity, what would be involved in making one's own HCl? It's easy enough to produce hydrogen (an electric current running through a tank of water with some aluminum scrap at the bottom). Could this then be bubbled through liquid chlorine to produce HCl?


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## lazersteve (May 21, 2010)

You can make HCl many ways. 

A very common one is to drip concentrated H2SO4 onto NaCl (table salt) capturing the gas in distilled water.

HCl is also the byproduct of many reactions. 

Steve


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## depperl001 (May 23, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> As GSP sated above, this shouldn't be a problem with dissolving reaction, but I wouldn't use the HCl for the final wash of my refined gold.
> 
> Distillation may help purify the HCl. Considering the low cost of HCl I would just buy another brand of fresh HCl and be done with it. Use the other dirty stuff for something else.
> 
> Steve


 Hi Steve,

I wonder if you could help me further. Before joining this forum I made up a AP solution dissolved about 5 gm of gold in it, to refine it. Thats when I got into trouble, I put too much SMB into it. Now the question is: what is the gas comming off this solution and is it dangerous. It is very breathtaking. I have attempted to recover the gold by reducing the solution by boiling it, thereby driving some of the SMB out of the solution, I started off with 8 cups and am down to 5 at this point. As you would have guessed by now I was using miles too much acid for the amount of gold I was trying to refine. If I continue to reduce the liquor to as much as it will take can I then introduce more HCL till the solution drops the gold?

Thanking you in advance,
regards,
Josef Vavryn


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 23, 2010)

depperl001 said:


> lazersteve said:
> 
> 
> > As GSP sated above, this shouldn't be a problem with dissolving reaction, but I wouldn't use the HCl for the final wash of my refined gold.
> ...



Was this a gold button, gold flake, or base metals with the gold foil left over?

If you used HCL/peroxide if you heat it till you get rid of the chlorine your SMB should drop the gold with no problem. If you will let your solution cool and crystals start to form you possibly still have an excess amount of SMB. Add some more HCL, warm it up and siphon off the soulution 2-3 times. This should be done after your gold has dropped. Don't toss your solution because if you didn't get rid of all the chlorine your solution will start to turn black in a couple of days, this is the rest of your gold coming out of solution be paitent and give it time to settle it is slow to drop. Be sure and do this in a glass container because the gold loves to stick to plastic.


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## depperl001 (May 23, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> depperl001 said:
> 
> 
> > lazersteve said:
> ...



Hi,
It was a gold button. As I said I have been reducing the quantity of fluid and yes there are still crystals dropping out when cold. So continue as before, the only worry I have with that are the fumes comming off the SMB.

Thank you for the quick reply,
Regards,
Josef Vavryn


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2010)

depperl001 said:


> ... Before joining this forum I made up a AP solution dissolved about 5 gm of gold in it, to refine it...



AP (Peroxide and HCl) is not the best choice for dissolving gold. AR (nitrate and HCl) is much faster and the more common choice.



depperl001 said:


> I put too much SMB into it. Now the question is: what is the gas coming off this solution and is it dangerous. It is very breathtaking.



It's most likely Sulfur Dioxide, it makes your eyes water and tightens up your throat, causes sneezing, coughing, and difficulty breathing. It is indeed very dangerous. Sounds like you added way too much SMB, typical SMB usage is 1-2 grams per gram of dissolved gold.



depperl001 said:


> I have attempted to recover the gold by reducing the solution by boiling it, thereby driving some of the SMB out of the solution, I started off with 8 cups and am down to 5 at this point. As you would have guessed by now I was using miles too much acid for the amount of gold I was trying to refine. If I continue to reduce the liquor to as much as it will take can I then introduce more HCl till the solution drops the gold?



Heating drives off the SO2 gas (the choking stuff) which is what drives the precipitation. At some level of concentration, the gold should precipitate as long as the solution does not have too high of a concentration of oxidizer (peroxide for AP, Chlorine for HCl-Cl, and Nitrate for AR) when this point is reached.

Here's how to fix this:

Evaporate the solution down to a thick syrup, with some salts present. Add enough HCl to dissolve the salts. Test the resulting solution with stannous chloride to be certain you have gold in the mix (purple to dark black stain).

If gold is present add a 5 grams of SMB dissolved in 10 mL of water with plenty of stirring. If the gold does not precipitate, add another 5 grams of SMB dissolved in 10 mL of water with more stirring.

In the future, you can prevent the problem by using a controlled amount of oxidizer to dissolve your gold and adding heat to force the oxidizer to be fully consumed before adding more oxidizer. Add the oxidizer in small doses allowing plenty of time for the oxidizer to work (fizzing with tiny bubbles means it's working) before adding any more oxidizer. once the gold is all dissolved, stop adding the oxidizer.


Steve


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## WIZZARD (May 23, 2010)

Steve

Get rid of the oxidizer.........was mentioned in AuBro posting in a past posting, by using formic acid, or urea. If this is used will it reduce the need to boil down to syrup, if nitric was/or/ not use? Also by reducing to a syrup have enhancing benefits over other, adding oxidizer killing methods? 

Placing the solutions in the sun destroys chlorine, right?, How about the sun working on oxidizing agents? 

What will bubbling Ozone through the solution do to the oxidizing agents before adding SMB.

If PGM's or other elements are present will the drop be other than metallic? Like iodine?



WIZZARD


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## depperl001 (May 23, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> depperl001 said:
> 
> 
> > ... Before joining this forum I made up a AP solution dissolved about 5 gm of gold in it, to refine it...
> ...


Hi Steve,
The solution was heated to continue the reaction, but when I added SMB I threw out caution and added too much. I am now down to 3.5 cups and still reducing. At this point I am heating untill fumes come off then removing the solution outside until it cools down before heating again. I will install a fume hood as soon as sufficient funds become available.

Thanking you,
Regards,
Josef Vavryn


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2010)

Josef said:


> ... At this point I am heating untill fumes come off then removing the solution outside until it cools down before heating again. I will install a fume hood as soon as sufficient funds become available.



:shock: 

Josef,

You should not be evaporating any solutions indoors. You should set up an area outside where you can perform your reactions until you get your hood built.

There are many fumes harmful from reactions that are not detectable with your senses, you must be more careful as your health is number one above any amount of gold!

Steve


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## depperl001 (May 23, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> Josef said:
> 
> 
> > ... At this point I am heating untill fumes come off then removing the solution outside until it cools down before heating again. I will install a fume hood as soon as sufficient funds become available.
> ...


Hi Steve,
I realise that what I am doing is dangerous but it is like a disease at times. As I said in the beginning I have worked with silver for about 20 years, then went into faceting stones and now it is refining gold. As my doctor said, I am the child of my compusions and this is the one at this time.
Till next time,

Regards,
Josef Vavryn


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## WIZZARD (May 26, 2010)

> Josef wrote:... At this point I am heating untill fumes come off then removing the solution outside until it cools down before heating again. I will install a fume hood as soon as sufficient funds become available.



Forgive me Josef, but if you don't take this very seriously the funds for you hood will be from your life insurance policy. 

I know a guy who use SO2 out doors and thought all was well, until the nose bleeds started. Trips to ER twice and finally they cauterized the interior of nose in time to save his life. Some of these fumes corrupts the soft tissue in the nose, throat, and lungs and you don't notice it until it is to late. 


WIZ


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## depperl001 (May 26, 2010)

WIZZARD said:


> > Josef wrote:... At this point I am heating untill fumes come off then removing the solution outside until it cools down before heating again. I will install a fume hood as soon as sufficient funds become available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, OK, I surrender. No more refining until fume hood made and installed.

With thanks to all,

Josef Vavryn


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## butcher (May 26, 2010)

everybody will be happy except the undertaker :lol:


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## depperl001 (May 27, 2010)

butcher said:


> everybody will be happy except the undertaker :lol:




He'll get me soner or later and later will cost a hell of a lot more. 

Regards,

Joszef Vavryn


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## butcher (May 27, 2010)

Yep yer right, but you need some time to get good at refining, and stack up some gold to pay him, besides if yer not in a hurry he'll wait.


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