# I DID WHAT YOU TOLD ME TO DO. NOW I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS.



## INDY864 (Feb 19, 2011)

HEY FOLKS,
I joined in December. I am 62, a part time N.GA. prospector, part time engineer, part time water-based cleaning chemicals manufacturer. I asked some basic questions about Aqua Regia and my sluice concentrates. I was told to read Hokes book. Now being 62, I'm a little old school. I respect experience, knowledge, and authority. SO I DID WHAT I WAS TOLD. THANKS FOR THE LINK!!!
I read it, reread it, then disected it. Now I know enough to be dangerous! :lol: 

About 5 years ago I found Shore Company's article about gold refining, called em up. They said I couldn't precipitate gold from my sluice concentrates with the Aqua Regia process. They were wrong. 

I have the nitric. I have the urea. I bought the precipitate from them at Lord knows how much mark up. 
Can anyone tell me the precipitate Shore sold me, or the best precipitate to use with urea and Aqua Regia?
Thanks, INDY864


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## Anonymous (Feb 19, 2011)

Sodium Meta-Bisulfite (SMB) is basically what you bought.It is the exact same precipitant that most of the members use.Some other members,myself included, use Copperas.Both will work fine with your AR as long as you have no unused nitrates in your solution.


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## INDY864 (Feb 19, 2011)

mic said:


> Sodium Meta-Bisulfite (SMB) is basically what you bought.It is the exact same precipitant that most of the members use.Some other members,myself included, use Copperas.Both will work fine with your AR as long as you have no unused nitrates in your solution.



Thanks Mic


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## djui5 (Feb 20, 2011)

Did the precipate you bought have anything on the bottle? Was it a powder? The stuff I buy comes in a white plastic "bottle" and it says "Sodium Bisulfite" on the bottle. How much did you pay for it? I pay about $12 for a pound of powder. It works great IMO.


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## Jimmi_p (Feb 20, 2011)

Wow, I only spend around $6 or $7/lb for mine. I know others have mentioned it but try home brewing stores.

Jimmi


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## Anonymous (Feb 20, 2011)

djui5 said:


> Did the precipate you bought have anything on the bottle? Was it a powder? The stuff I buy comes in a white plastic "bottle" and it says "Sodium Bisulfite" on the bottle. How much did you pay for it? I pay about $12 for a pound of powder. It works great IMO.


Shor has sold thier "precipitant" in different containers before,and they never list the ingredient.
$12 a pound is rediculous.You can buy it at Home Depot for $8 a pound if you are in a pinch.
Heres a link on ebay where you can buy 10 pounds for $38 after shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-lb-pound-Sodium-Metabisulfite-gold-refining-/300369003194?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45ef6342ba
If you want to have some fun,call shor and tell them you need an MSDS on the precipitant and see how willing they are to send it.


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## INDY864 (Feb 20, 2011)

mic said:


> djui5 said:
> 
> 
> > Did the precipate you bought have anything on the bottle? Was it a powder? The stuff I buy comes in a white plastic "bottle" and it says "Sodium Bisulfite" on the bottle. How much did you pay for it? I pay about $12 for a pound of powder. It works great IMO.
> ...


Mic,
I love it! I forgot all about that! I've done that all the time in my work. Where is it at Home Depot? That's my second home!


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## Anonymous (Feb 20, 2011)

It's called Bonide Stumpout. 100% SMB.Or of course you can get it from Ebay,
or from the Chemistry Store http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Sodium_Metabisulfite.html
or you can always use Copperas which is about $1 a pound and takes about twice as much to drop the same amount of gold as SMB.You can find copperas at most nursery or garden stores.


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## INDY864 (Feb 20, 2011)

mic said:


> It's called Bonide Stumpout. 100% SMB.Or of course you can get it from Ebay,
> or from the Chemistry Store http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Sodium_Metabisulfite.html
> or you can always use Copperas which is about $1 a pound and takes about twice as much to drop the same amount of gold as SMB.You can find copperas at most nursery or garden stores.



Thanks again Mic


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## Anonymous (Feb 20, 2011)

No problem bud,thats what I am here for.


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## INDY864 (Feb 23, 2011)

mic said:


> No problem bud,thats what I am here for.


Mic,
Got another question. Back when I tried the Ishore process, I had to use urea and to balance the ph to remove the nitric. When I read Hoke, she said to use sulphuric acid with evaporation to remove the nitric. Sounds easier. It took a good bid of urea to balance the ph. Which do you like?
I'm on the road. Will be back online about 9pm EST.
INDY864


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 23, 2011)

INDY864 said:


> mic said:
> 
> 
> > No problem bud,thats what I am here for.
> ...



He is going to tell you to use urea.


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## Anonymous (Feb 23, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> He is going to tell you to use urea.


lol....too funny.Yes barren is 100% correct.Although my way isn't for everybody,it works fine for me.Urea does neutralize the nitric,however if there is too much nitric to begin with then you are neutralizing something that can still be used,and you are using excess urea,and you are adding more urea to a solution that should be as clean as possible.To deal with this,I add very little urea to get an idea of how much extra nitric I am dealing with.If there is very little nitric,then I just go ahead and start dropping my powder.As the gold precipitates the excess nitric attacks it,and expells it as red fumes.If there is a reasonable amount extra,then it needs to be expelled,or neutralized.Most of the moderators have recovered gold on a scale that most members do not comprehend,and they will advise you to add gold(solid or powder) and as the excess nitric attacks it,the nitric is expelled.This works great if you have any extra gold to use.
Personally,unless I have a significant amount of excess nitric,I just add urea and drop.
It has been a couple of years since I read hoke,but I clearly remember her saying that,"one of the largest obstacles for people that recover and refine gold,is using too much nitric to begin with".I try to keep mine to an absolute minimum to begin with.


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## lazersteve (Feb 23, 2011)

Indy,

Forget about using urea, learn how to calculate how much nitric is required to dissolve the scrap or gold and use the correct amount of nitric added in small doses. This way you are not buying urea and you are saving nitric acid that would otherwise be consumed by the urea.

I've posted tons of information on calculating the correct amount of nitric to use for the various reactions. If you are not mathematically inclined, I've posted step-by-step reactions that will allow you to recover your gold and keep your nitric consumption in check without the math.

I've never used as much as a grain of urea in more than 6 years of refining. 

Steve


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## Anonymous (Feb 23, 2011)

Steve I understand your view on the subject,but when dealing with escrap,its not so easy to just calculate how much nitric it will take,unlike jewelry.And I always use the "small doses" method to keep the excess to an absolute minimum.In fact you are the one that taught me that method a looooong time ago.
The urea I purchase costs $44 for 50 pounds.I have used maybe 10 pounds in over 2 years,so it is a cost that I am ok with.Barren had 5 gallons given to him for free from his local hardware store.


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## INDY864 (Feb 23, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> Indy,
> 
> Forget about using urea, learn how to calculate how much nitric is required to dissolve the scrap or gold and use the correct amount of nitric added in small doses. This way you are not buying urea and you are saving nitric acid that would otherwise be consumed by the urea.
> 
> ...


OK YOU TWO,
looks like I've got some work to do. But sounds like fun to me. I'll research the links and jump in. I'll post the results. May be awhile.
Indy


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## INDY864 (Feb 23, 2011)

INDY864 said:


> mic said:
> 
> 
> > Barren Realms 007 said:
> ...


BTW , while I'm at it. I have an A/R solution with reclaimed gold in it from watches, rings, junk,etc. I had forgotten about it. it has been stored for 3-5 years. There is still liquid in it. And a heck of a lot of stuff on the bottom. Should I add another solution of A/R (1 PART NITRIC TO 3 PARTS HCL) to redissolve as much as possible then begin the process. It would be a great solution to learn on by using a few ounces for each experiment.


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## Anonymous (Feb 23, 2011)

My advice would depend on how saturated,with base metals,the solution is.If it is not too saturated then you could add a little more nitric and let the nitric go to work on the "stuff" at the bottom.
If it is saturated,then decant and start with fresh.Don't forget to test your solution at every step.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 23, 2011)

mic said:


> Steve I understand your view on the subject,but when dealing with escrap,its not so easy to just calculate how much nitric it will take,unlike jewelry.And I always use the "small doses" method to keep the excess to an absolute minimum.In fact you are the one that taught me that method a looooong time ago.
> The urea I purchase costs $44 for 50 pounds.I have used maybe 10 pounds in over 2 years,so it is a cost that I am ok with.Barren had 5 gallons given to him for free from his local hardware store.



It was a local farm fertalizer company. I offered to buy it but they told me to just go ahead and get some they didn't care. I went back a couple of weeks ago to get some more but they hadn't recieved any for the spring yet so I went to a different place and met a friend that I hadn't seen in 10 yrs. I got another 5 gals for free and was told to come back any time I wanted and it was free. 8) 

I have found that if you can figure out about how much sodium nitrate to use before it starts to dissolve a large part of your gold then take your chips out and start a 2nd reaction bucket that you can get most of your gold in your 2nd container. Then use your 1st container to start a new batch of chips and follow the procedure. When you think your first bucket is saturated with base metals you can add some HCL and heat up the solution and let any gold settle or if the solution test positive drop your gold after filtering the iced down solution.


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## lazersteve (Feb 24, 2011)

mic said:


> Steve I understand your view on the subject,but when dealing with escrap,its not so easy to just calculate how much nitric it will take,unlike jewelry.And I always use the "small doses" method to keep the excess to an absolute minimum.In fact you are the one that taught me that method a looooong time ago.
> The urea I purchase costs $44 for 50 pounds.I have used maybe 10 pounds in over 2 years,so it is a cost that I am ok with.Barren had 5 gallons given to him for free from his local hardware store.



The bulk of the scrap I process is e-scrap. When properly administered the 'small doses' trick works to get your scrap dissolved with out any appreciable excess nitric acid. There is no need to calculate the required amount of acid. That said, it doesn't hurt to keep track of how much nitric/nitrates you use for the various types of scrap you dissolve for future reference. Good lab notes are a must.

If you are finding you need to add urea, then you are not driving your reaction to use up the nitric acid added in one dose prior to adding the next dose. Be sure to drive the reaction until the red fumes are no longer being generated by the reaction before adding more nitric.

When the added nitric (or nitrate if using poor man's recipes) no longer produces fizzing be sure to add a little extra HCl (*if making AR*) to drive off the last of the nitric that may be present. If you are dissolving just the base metals with nitric acid, the last dose is reached when all of the gold foils move freely around the beaker when it is swirled. 

Try to gauge the additions of your nitric to the quantity of red-brown fumes being produced so that you fully dissolve the target metal with the correct sized dose of acid. In other words: reduce the size of your nitric additions as the amount of undissolved material decreases in the reaction, such that the activity of the brown fumes and fizzing ceasing coincides with the last of the target metal being dissolved. *This is the key observation to make for eliminating urea in your process when making AR.*

Doing the the reactions this way will ensure you do not have an excess of nitric acid in the final solution. You can add dry SMB directly to the ice cold filtered solution and recover your gold without any calculations or urea.



BR007 said:


> It was a local farm fertalizer company. I offered to buy it but they told me to just go ahead and get some they didn't care. I went back a couple of weeks ago to get some more but they hadn't recieved any for the spring yet so I went to a different place and met a friend that I hadn't seen in 10 yrs. I got another 5 gals for free and was told to come back any time I wanted and it was free. 8)


Just because urea is free or cheap is not a good enough reason to add it to your reaction in my opinion. I can get dirt for free from my back yard, but I don't add it to my reactions.



BR007 said:


> When you think your first bucket is saturated with base metals you can add some HCL and heat up the solution and let any gold settle or if the solution test positive drop your gold after filtering the iced down solution.


 No need to guess when the solution is saturated with base metals. Simply continue to use the nitrate additions until the hot solution forms solid colored (blue-green) salts or turns pitch brown-black like ink. If the solution is forming salts when hot, it's definitely saturated and you can cool the reaction, replace the saturated solution with a fresh dose of water and HCl and begin your next additions of nitric acid or nitrate. 

The key with poor-man's AR is to keep enough free HCl and water in the mix to keep the nitrate converting and to keep the temperature at the minimum threshold to drive the reaction. You will start to dissolve gold if the temperature is run up too high. A sign of this condition is when you see a thick colored foam form on top of the solution. You want to consistently see small bubbles fizzing up from the metal portions of the scrap, not a head of foam on the solution during the reaction. You should see gold foils and legs floating in the solution and possibly some brown powder and salts/debris along the bottom. It is all about patience and observation of the reaction conditions.

One last note about urea. I have seen a lot members lately referencing using urea in any reaction involving nitric acid.* Do not use urea when dissolving silver and PGMs with nitric for any reason what so ever.*

Steve


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 24, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> mic said:
> 
> 
> > Steve I understand your view on the subject,but when dealing with escrap,its not so easy to just calculate how much nitric it will take,unlike jewelry.And I always use the "small doses" method to keep the excess to an absolute minimum.In fact you are the one that taught me that method a looooong time ago.
> ...



Thanks Steve

I'm getting there. I am running in 5 gal bucket's running 25-35 lbs of chips at a time and slowly getting the kinks worked out on any additions. And I do add water to my mix I forgot to mention that.


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## lazersteve (Feb 24, 2011)

No problem Frank, I'm always willing to help if I can. 

I've been processing using these techniques for many years now on a large scale also and I've learned what to look for and what not to do also.

Steve


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## INDY864 (Feb 24, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> mic said:
> 
> 
> > Steve I understand your view on the subject,but when dealing with escrap,its not so easy to just calculate how much nitric it will take,unlike jewelry.And I always use the "small doses" method to keep the excess to an absolute minimum.In fact you are the one that taught me that method a looooong time ago.
> ...


GREAT STUFF!!! THANKS,
INDY


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## djui5 (Feb 26, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> * Do not use urea when dissolving silver and PGMs with nitric for any reason what so ever.*
> 
> Steve



What is the alternative?


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## lazersteve (Feb 26, 2011)

djui5 said:


> lazersteve said:
> 
> 
> > * Do not use urea when dissolving silver and PGMs with nitric for any reason what so ever.*
> ...





Lazersteve said:


> When the added nitric (or nitrate if using poor man's recipes) no longer produces fizzing be sure to add a little extra HCl (*if making AR*) to drive off the last of the nitric that may be present. If you are dissolving just the base metals (or silver) with nitric acid, the last dose is reached when all of the gold foils move freely around the beaker when it is swirled, or the silver is all dissolved.
> 
> Try to gauge the additions of your nitric to the quantity of red-brown fumes being produced so that you fully dissolve the target metal with the correct sized dose of acid. *In other words:* reduce the size of your nitric additions as the amount of undissolved material decreases in the reaction, such that the activity of the brown fumes and fizzing ceasing coincides with the last of the target metal being dissolved.
> ...
> Doing the the reactions this way will ensure you do not have an excess of nitric acid in the final solution.



Steve


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## INDY864 (Mar 27, 2011)

Hey Guys,
I think I screwed up. I couldn't find my urea. I had made a good solution of A/R and began to evaporate to get out the nitric. I evaporated down to a syrup twice and added HCL. I didn't add any Sulphuric. I evaporated it down to a concentrate again, but not a syrup. I added SMB and it started foaming. Did I not get out all the Nitric?  
Thanks, Indy


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## lazersteve (Mar 27, 2011)

It's not unusual to see foaming when adding SMB to gold solutions. If you see brown fumes coming out of the foam then you still have more nitric in the mix. You can destroy the nitric with more SMB and stirring. 

Be very cautious of the NOx brown fumes when doing this.

Steve


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## INDY864 (Mar 27, 2011)

Thanks Steve,
Got a whif of the stuff and didn't want any more of that. I'll be outside when I do that tomorrow.
Indy


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## butcher (Mar 27, 2011)

Added too much nitric ?, Harolds method of more gold to use up excess nitric works wonders.


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## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2011)

INDY864 said:


> I evaporated it down to a concentrate again, but not a syrup. I added SMB and it started foaming.


You are missing a step here.You were suppose to rehydrate your solution before adding SMB.


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## Harold_V (Mar 28, 2011)

mic said:


> INDY864 said:
> 
> 
> > I evaporated it down to a concentrate again, but not a syrup. I added SMB and it started foaming.
> ...


Filtering afterwards isn't a bad idea, either. 

Harold


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## INDY864 (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks Guys,
I'm building a new garage with a shop. I'm researching for an exhaust hood with a squirrel cage fan. Been reading some about fans here. I'm dumb as a rock about the subject. What's the best for the least? Just send me somewhere to research.
Indy


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## t.c.moffat (Jul 7, 2011)

lazersteve said:


> One last note about urea. I have seen a lot members lately referencing using urea in any reaction involving nitric acid.* Do not use urea when dissolving silver and PGMs with nitric for any reason what so ever.*
> 
> Steve




Very sound advise! It does not require a catalist for the formation of "Urea Nitrate" in a solution "Rich" in nitric acid. VERY DANGERIOUS, for your own safety, please do not do this!!

Thomas


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