# I think I have a problem w/ silver



## Paige (Mar 23, 2007)

I purchased a lump of silver on eBay. Heavy! I put it into Nitric Acid (70%) w/ an equal amount of distilled water. The "cottage cheese" appeared and soaked up all the acid.

For a part that didn't dissolve, same procedure. I have blue colored liquid sitting on top of talcum powder looking stuff on the bottom.

There apparently was a little gold, as I see some black areas.

Did I just not use enough nitric? Should I redissolove the cottage cheese, a little at a time, and then precipitate it out.

Right now I have solids and never used the salt to precipitate the silver chloride out.


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## lazersteve (Mar 23, 2007)

Hello Again,

If you  know the nitric is pure and you used distilled (chlorine free) water then here's what is most likely going on.

The blue color indicates copper (blue as nitrate) ions present. Copper could have pushed the silver out of solution or you don't have enough H20 to dissolve the Silver Nitrate (219gm / 100ml solubility in H20). Filter off the solids and rinse well with distilled water (2 or 3 passes unitl the blue is gone) . The blue liquid may have silver in it as well. After it has been filtered of all solids, treat it with iodide free table salt to push out the remaining silver out as Silver Chloride. Redissolve the solid white AgNO3 with more dilute HNO3 to remove the black powder for processing later. Now you will have a acidic liquid containing the AgNO3. You can proceed as in the tutorials with the clear acidic solution. Combined the two yields of silver chloride (from the blue copper portion and from the clear acidic portion).





SILVER NITRATE is toxic, read the MSDS and wear saftey gear!





Let us know how it turns out. 

Steve


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## Paige (Mar 23, 2007)

Thank you for the explanation.

I am sure of the chemicals that I used.

I did not use nearly enough H2O, which means that I also didn't use enough Nitric.

I guess when I get this kinda straightened out, I should start over and take it all back through Nitric/Water for purity's sake.

Was trying to conserve acid as disposal is tough to do correctly.

Paige


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## Paige (Mar 23, 2007)

Thank you for the explanation.

I am sure of the chemicals that I used.

I did not use nearly enough H2O, which means that I also didn't use enough Nitric.

I guess when I get this kinda straightened out, I should start over and take it all back through Nitric/Water for purity's sake.

Was trying to conserve acid as disposal is tough to do correctly.

Paige


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## Harold_V (Mar 23, 2007)

Paige said:


> I purchased a lump of silver on eBay. Heavy! I put it into Nitric Acid (70%) w/ an equal amount of distilled water. The "cottage cheese" appeared and soaked up all the acid.



Whoa! That should send up a red flag, instantly!

In dissolving your metal, unless there's lead present, there should be no formation of anything that resembles "cottage cheese" without introducing chlorine by some source-----salt or HCL, for example. If you're getting such a thing, it's likely not silver at all, but lead. You can test the "cottage cheese" by trying to dissolve it in hot (boiling) water. Silver chloride will not dissolve in hot water, nor any acid, but it will dissolve in ammonium hydroxide. Lead nitrate will dissolve in hot water, and precipitate from a saturated solution without aid. 



> There apparently was a little gold, as I see some black areas.



Only by dissolving and testing will you know that the black matter is gold. It could be any of innumerable things, none of which have value. 



> Did I just not use enough nitric? Should I redissolove the cottage cheese, a little at a time, and then precipitate it out.



See above about silver chloride being insoluble. 

The first thing you should do is determine if the object you purchased is, indeed, silver. I think you got shafted----purchased something with lead added, perhaps no silver at all. Are you aware of the solution used for testing for silver? It's a fast and easy way to determine if that's what you have----and can save you from embarrassing and expensive mistakes, like paying for silver and getting lead. If you'd like to talk about the testing solution, please ask. 

HaroldHarold


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## Harold_V (Mar 23, 2007)

lazersteve said:


> Hello Again,
> 
> If you  know the nitric is pure and you used distilled (chlorine free) water then here's what is most likely going on.
> 
> The blue color indicates copper (blue as nitrate) ions present. Copper could have pushed the silver out of solution or you don't have enough H20 to dissolve the Silver Nitrate (219gm / 100ml solubility in H20).



Sorry, Steve, but that makes no sense. If you have a presence of free copper, the silver will precipitate as elemental silver. If you have silver nitrate in a concentrated solution, it will grow silver nitrate crystals, and do it quickly when the solution cools. Under no circumstance will one get silver chloride under the conditions specified. 

If you do, indeed, have silver nitrate crystals, you won't have any questions about their presence. They're overwhelming. 

Please read my comments about silver chloride, and it not being soluble. 

Harold 




Steve[/quote]


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## lazersteve (Mar 23, 2007)

Harold_V said:


> Under no circumstance will one get silver chloride under the conditions specified.



The silver chloride I mention is from a second reaction with table salt.. not the one Paige is currently referencing. If Paige used a solution that contained any form of chlorine (i.e.: tap water) he MAY have chlorine in the reaction. I believe Harold has a excellent point about the lead however, I had not considered that Paige may have been ripped off. 

Steve


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## Paige (Mar 24, 2007)

If you could tell me about a test to see if this stuff is silver, I would appreciate it.


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## lazersteve (Mar 24, 2007)

Are you talking about the sludge or the undissolved scrap?


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## lazersteve (Mar 24, 2007)

For the sludge,

You should look up the various nitrates in the solubilites list and eliminate those that you can based upon physical characteristics like color.

Then you can filter off the liquid and dry the sludge completely. 

Weigh the unknown dry sludge accurately to the tenth of a gram 

Measure unknown's volume to the ml 

Divide the mass by the volume

Compare the unknown's density to each of the remaining nitrates and see if it matches any of your canidates.

This won't tell you if it's a mixture of nitrates however.


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## Lucia (Mar 26, 2007)

Hello Steve, is any way of geting your videos because I can't view them all, I don't know what's happening but I just try over and over and I can't.


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## Noxx (Mar 26, 2007)

Same for me


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## lazersteve (Mar 26, 2007)

I tested them all yesterday at (3/25/07) and they all work fine. I was doing som e web design during the day yesterday and they may have been unavailable.

I just tested them again (3/26/07 3:10 CST), the silver videos have a slight delay (10-15 sec) at startup due to the buffering of the video.

Try again and let me know.

Steve


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## Lucia (Mar 27, 2007)

Dear Steve, is still not working, I have the immages only at the begining about 3 minutes, but after I get only the voice and no immage at all. Do you think I might have troubles with my pc?


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## Lucia (Mar 27, 2007)

I got it now Steve, it's working. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.


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## lazersteve (Mar 27, 2007)

Sounds like your pc is buffering the video. The videos were created as higher quality so they make take longer than you are accustomed to to load.

Steve


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## MacMasterMike (Mar 28, 2007)

Might as well ask this here. Was at the local wall mart looking for a source of NaOH. It was a drain opener type item like suggested but said it also contained sodium nitrate. Now I recall reading you want pure NaOH so i didnt buy it. Was I right to do that? Also i noticed they had a bottle of this drain opener labeled as Virgin Sulfuric acid. This the pure stuff I assume? Coudnt find a concentration on it.

Lastly Steve in your tutorial I'd just like something cleared up. When you take the AgCl are you just adding distilled water then the NaOH and that starts precipitating the Ag? Also how much NaOH will you need to have? I think in your demo you said you had 42~ grams of AgCl and then used 17 grams of NaOH. If I recall correctly AgCL is 75% silver? so 31.5 grams. Then whats the ratio of NaOH?


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## lazersteve (Mar 28, 2007)

Mac,

You don't want Draino, it has Al, NaNO3, and NaOH in it. You want to go to Lowes and get Red Devil Lye for your NaOH.

I buy the ROOTO drain opener for H2SO4 at ACE hardware, it's the jug in the plastic 
bag.

I figured the amount of NaOH from the Moles of Silver Chloride or:

42 gm AgCl : 42 / 143.4 ~ .3 Moles AgCl, 

AgCl + NaOH --> NaCl + AgOH (a one-to-one molar ratio AgCl to NaOH)

so you need .3 mole or NaOH per .3 mole AgCl :

NaOH= 23+16+1= 40 x .3 ~ 12 gm NaOH 

I used a bit more than I needed.

Steve


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## MacMasterMike (Mar 28, 2007)

Thanks steve that clears things up for the most part. the 42/143.4 where does the 143.4 come from? And all you did was add the AgCl to distiled water and added the proper amount of NaOH? It wasn't Drano and was in flakes had some other name no biggie though glad i did not pick it up. Also the sulfuric i was talking about was in a bag as well. Thanks for the quick response.


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## NaNO3 (Mar 28, 2007)

Thay dont make Red Devil Lye anymore.You might find some still out there.
If you go to lowes look for 
Roebic®
2 Lbs. Heavy Duty Crystal Drain Opener.
Contains 100% Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda)


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## lazersteve (Mar 28, 2007)

Here's what I got at Lowes last week. I think I've seen it at Albertsons also.







If you want larger quantities go to http://www.thechemistrystore.com

The weights are from very basic chemistry :

AgCl= 107.9 (Ag) + 35.5 (Cl) = 143.4 gm for 1 Mole Silver Chloride

Source: Periodic Table of the Elements

Be sure to completely pulverize the silver chloride if it has hardened. If you don't it won't all covert in the centers of the chunks. You should wear a mask, goggles, and gloves when doing this. Just cover the AgCl in a thick layer of water, add the NaOH, and stir. The corn syrup is optional, it is supposed to prevent clumping.

Steve


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## MacMasterMike (Mar 28, 2007)

Hey once again thanks steve. I knew it had something to do with the grand ole table but HS chem seems so far away. I should review a little I think.


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