# Assay From Inspectorate



## Franciz (Nov 29, 2011)

Dear all,

I have pay ''inspectorate'' to analysis my 50m/t of used borax which i kept this used borax for 15 years.
I got the reply from them today.

Copper (Cu) = 2,159 g/tons ( 0.22 %)
Silver (Ag) = 137 g/tons (0.01 %)
Plattinum (Pt) = Not Detect
Gold (Au) = 28.03 g/tons (When i Call them up they told me is 28 PPM)

I am a little bit confuse here, Can anyone help me out?
It this used borax worth anything?


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## samuel-a (Nov 29, 2011)

28 ppm = 28 g/ton

According to the numbers you have, at today's prices:
76.5k in gold
7k in silver

I'm not sure you can recover it profitably, then again, i don't know your setup operation.
Maybe you should investigate a toll refining at a large refiner overseas.


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## Franciz (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks Sam,

I am thinking to sell it to refiner, What i heard from others is there is a type of so called flux recipe which they will mix it with my used borax and burn it for long time then those gold and silver will settle on the bottom.
And this method seems cost saving.
This seems unlike to ore or black sand as i think this should be more easy for refiner to recover the gold and silver.

And for Au 28 PPM and Ag 0.01% do you guys think any refiner will buy this grade(Used Borax) 

Thanks for advices....


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## 4metals (Nov 29, 2011)

The problem with drums of unprocessed slags is they are not easy to sample, and unless you sample them correctly your assay will be suspect. 

What equipment do you have to use? If you have a melter, what size crucible does it hold? The easiest way for you to get a reasonable answer is to re-melt a drum full using a special thinning flux, this will allow most of the values to settle out and be collected in a cone mold. 

Get back to us with what equipment you have to use and we can discuss your options.


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## Franciz (Nov 30, 2011)

The surveyor has come to my place to collect the sample themself and they told me the assay is at least 95%up acuracate, i do not know it is truth anot but i have pay them about USD4000/- for this assay.I hire them to test it because i was onces told that i would need a Test Report b4 i can look for a buyer.

I have a home built burner using waste engine oil and a crucible will at least hold up to 50Kg of this borax per time.
To be honest, i have never seen a cone mold b4 in my life =).

My father and me are doing waste material for goldsmith workshop, I don think i will have them time to recover it unless my father allow me=)

I am trying to look for buyer to buy this borax and let them recover it as i have totally no experience on this.
But i do interested to learn new thing from professional here for the thinning flux, It must be real thin because i have try about 10 kg and burn it for 2Hr++ b4 and nothing falls into bottom and what i get is a very very sticky paste a real stick paste until i not be able to pour it out from a crucible so i let it cool and dry on the crucible and chip it off slowly it takes me whole day to chip it off and in the end i saw nothing on the bottom.
That why my father don support me for this recover process.

I am here to find if any serious buyer if not i am interested to learn from professional here too so if i really cannot find a serious buyer then maybe 1 day i would try it myself.
It is too many for me to process actually but will try my best if i will be able to learn here and able to master it...

Thanks everyone here for helping.....


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## butcher (Nov 30, 2011)

Franciz,
You are best to find a local buyer, who can sample this product, As 4metals said the only way to see how much gold would be to have a very mixed sample, which would be hard to do, It would also be hard to find a buyer of your product here on the forum, and it would be such a gamble for many of us here on the forum to take, unless we could come to where you have the materials, It may pay you to take this to someone where you live and let them recover the gold for share of profit, or learn to recover this yourself.

There is nothing fancy about the cone mold (think of a big Iron funnel but no hole in bottom or spout {like this letter V}) you can make or have made one from scrap iron, or find something that is that shape. 

Try small (work with small size experiment), test melts using torch and melting dish to get the flux recipe right, with good liquid melt holding heat till beads collect, and easy to pour.

I have made a small cone mold from a cast Iron plumbing fitting (threaded plug) it already had a bowl shape so all I had to do was use a drill bit and cut bottom little deeper, then use a smaller drill bit and again another smaller bit and drilled deeper, after several smaller bits, I used a grinding stone and drill to make the cone (V) shape smooth and finish with sand paper. You can even use steel to make the cone mold, (weld it or have one made)just make sure the glass slag will come out when you cool it (nice smooth V shape nothing for glass slag to stick onto), also oiling or sooting mold with torch (no oxygen) with your torch will keep glass slag from sticking to the mold.

you can also buy any or all of the the materials you need to do this from mining supply, action mining. com has catalog and even if you do buy from them you can see much of what we are saying in this catalog.

http://www.actionmining.com/Catalog.PDF

After your small testing is working you can then do this on larger scale.


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## Harold_V (Nov 30, 2011)

Franciz said:


> The surveyor has come to my place to collect the sample themself and they told me the assay is at least 95%up acuracate, i do not know it is truth anot but i have pay them about USD4000/- for this assay.I hire them to test it because i was onces told that i would need a Test Report b4 i can look for a buyer.


Franciz, if you hope to have a good exchange with the board and its readers, lose the text message lingo. I do not tolerate such things on this forum, for such things tend to lead to confusion, and can easily be interpreted as being disrespectful of those from whom you seek guidance. Each of us has earned the right to be addressed properly by the time we dedicate to the forum. Spell words out to the best of your ability. Do not use numbers to represent words. Do NOT use shortcuts aside from commonly accepted chemical titles. 

Harold


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## Franciz (Nov 30, 2011)

hi butcher,

You are right there is a need for buyer to come over to my place to assay themself and then decide before they buy it.
I will listen to your advice for trying myself in a small batch.

I have try to read the hoke book but i cannot really understand since my english is not very good.
Should i use this receipe for melting my used borax?
30g concentrated gold and (crushed slag) Without panning
5g-crushed glass or sand
30g-lead oxide or copper metal powders 
30g-sodium carbonate
2g-borax
3g-flour or maybe 5g charcoal

please allow me ask you a few question as i am not familiar any other thing other than borax,
Example:
1)May i use 30g of crushed borax without panning ?
2)5g sand, Do you mean any children play-ground fine sand will do?
3)30g-lead oxide or copper metal powders(i understand this part well)
4)30g-sodium carbonate''soda ash''(i understand this part well)
5)3g-flour or maybe 5g charcoal, May i use charcoal if yes issit the charcoal we use to barbeque? Do i need to crushed it?

Thank for your time and energy to reply me=)

Best Regs...
Franciz


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## 4metals (Nov 30, 2011)

Do not use litharge, this is not an assay where you need a collector. Read this thread and use the formulation discussed there. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5689&hilit=flourospar&start=0


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## Franciz (Dec 1, 2011)

Break up your flux so the pieces are small enough to react with a few more ingredients you will be adding in the old flux and do a flux melt. To the borax add some soda ash equal to the amount of crushed up old borax you have started with, add an equal amount of Borax (always use anhydrous) and about 1/4 part flourospar (calcium flouride) this will really thin the flux. Easy on the flourospar it eats up crucibles. Now heat it up to melting temperature.

Now pour the molten flux, which will be much less viscous than before, into a cone mold. The beads will collect on the bottom of the mold and are easily separated from the slags. Cone molds are valuable tools, often overlooked, but they make collection of the beads you have entrapped in the slag much easier. 

It has been my experience that diamonds that have been fluxed and melted are worthless but Harold has had different experience and his input here may teach us all something.

Do you mean example;
1kg crushed up old Borax
1Kg soda ash
2KG Borax 
750g flourospar 

A million thank for advice...
Looking forward to try it out onces comfirm=)

Thanks and best regs
Franciz


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## Franciz (Dec 2, 2011)

Can i use other any item to replace the soda ash to make it profitable.

Thanks and best regs.
Franciz


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## 4metals (Dec 2, 2011)

If your assays are correct, or even in the ballpark, even with soda ash you will be profitable. Are you having a problem getting soda ash?


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## Franciz (Dec 2, 2011)

4metals said:


> If your assays are correct, or even in the ballpark, even with soda ash you will be profitable. Are you having a problem getting soda ash?



Hi 4 Metal,
Yes i cannot find soda ash and fluorspar in my local store. And i have been to my local chemical store they told me they can order for me but it will cost Usd1/Kg.

And if i have to put in equal amount of soda ash to my used borax then it is not very profitable.
Is there other way to do it?


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## 4metals (Dec 3, 2011)

You made this problem by melting using only borax, it is thick and holds up beads of valuable metal. I am having a hard time believing you can't get soda ash in Thailand, Soda ash, sodium carbonate, I had ho trouble getting it in the jungles of eastern Ecuador. Fluorospar I can understand, also called calcium fluoride. 

I can't think of anything that would be cheaper and maybe if you expand your search a bit you can find it. You have a lot to gain by collecting the metal trapped in the flux you are holding, worth investing some time in searching for the proper thinning material. 

If you can get enough to sample a few drums and do a few crucibles full of the old borax, you will be able to see how effective this treatment is.


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## Franciz (Dec 4, 2011)

4metals said:


> You made this problem by melting using only borax, it is thick and holds up beads of valuable metal. I am having a hard time believing you can't get soda ash in Thailand, Soda ash, sodium carbonate, I had ho trouble getting it in the jungles of eastern Ecuador. Fluorospar I can understand, also called calcium fluoride.
> 
> I can't think of anything that would be cheaper and maybe if you expand your search a bit you can find it. You have a lot to gain by collecting the metal trapped in the flux you are holding, worth investing some time in searching for the proper thinning material.
> 
> If you can get enough to sample a few drums and do a few crucibles full of the old borax, you will be able to see how effective this treatment is.



Dear 4Metal,

I have buy 2kg of soda ash today. I have try to melt it with my used borax.
used borax 30g
soda ash 30g
5g crushed charcoal
10g lead.

I smelt it for 1hr++ and i pour it out from the crucible it is still very thick and only able to pour out 1/4 to cone mold and i can see small lead bead on top the cone mold''Just refuse to sink to bottom of the cone mold, I have already try adding more soda ash but it is still the same. It really thin my flux but it is still very thick, What should i do next.

Last i have use a hammer to break my crucible to collect the lead below. I dissolve it in nitric acid and i use salt to test if there is silver, i have recover 3grams++ of silver in my 50grams used borax that i try to smelt today i have jump and shout out loud as i am so happy but there is still lot of many small bead in the borax'' Million very small white bead''.i do not see any gold.

4metal can you give me your address as i wish you can help me out on this.
I wanted to try post you a little bit of my used borax for you to try and maybe after you have try you can teach me and understand me more clearly as i am not good in explaining in english.
Please give me a address that i can post to you if you have some free time to help me out..

Thanks and best regs
Franciz


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## qst42know (Dec 4, 2011)

No flouorspar (calcium fluoride)?

Still insist on using lead?

How do you expect expert advice to work properly if you don't follow directions?


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## 4metals (Dec 4, 2011)

I made a cake just like you told me except I changed a few things, and the cake came out bad.  


*Fluorospar is the thinning agent*, adding charcoal, which acts as a reducing agent is unnecessary as the metal you are looking to collect is already in metallic form in the borax. Adding lead as a collector is not needed if the flux is thin enough. If it were needed, you would need considerably more than you have added in your test. You could substitute cryolite for fluorospar but I suspect it will be more costly and harder to find. 

It is not necessary to send me some of this material to melt, I have told you exactly what I would do, I'm not holding out on you here. This is a common problem and the identical flux has been proposed by me to many people who have all enjoyed success. (as did the person in the post I linked above) I am confident that if you do this with the correct chemicals you will succeed.


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## 4metals (Dec 4, 2011)

If you recovered 3 grams of silver from a 50 gram sample, that's 6%. Your assay stated 0.01%.

So much for the validity of the sampling. 

Get some fluorospar,mix the proportions I've told you, and you may be pleasantly surprised. If the yields meet your assay expectations you will recoup the cost of the flux ingredients, if the results exceed the assay, even better.


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## Franciz (Dec 4, 2011)

4metals said:


> I made a cake just like you told me except I changed a few things, and the cake came out bad.
> 
> 
> *Fluorospar is the thinning agent*, adding charcoal, which acts as a reducing agent is unnecessary as the metal you are looking to collect is already in metallic form in the borax. Adding lead as a collector is not needed if the flux is thin enough. If it were needed, you would need considerably more than you have added in your test. You could substitute cryolite for fluorospar but I suspect it will be more costly and harder to find.
> ...




Dear 4metal,
I wanted to send you this material for you to melt not because i think you are holding me here.
I wanted to send to you for you to try this out for me because i am not experience and none of here us has done this b4, So i am thinking to send you some so that you can try and tell us more, I am willing to pay the shipping cost so you don need to pay anything, Do you keen to help me?
Please....
Thanks


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## Franciz (Dec 4, 2011)

4metals said:


> If you recovered 3 grams of silver from a 50 gram sample, that's 6%. Your assay stated 0.01%.
> 
> So much for the validity of the sampling.
> 
> Get some fluorospar,mix the proportions I've told you, and you may be pleasantly surprised. If the yields meet your assay expectations you will recoup the cost of the flux ingredients, if the results exceed the assay, even better.



The biggest problem for me here is i cannot get fluorospar here i have called to many chemical supplier in the city to asked for it all of them tell me is impossible.


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## butcher (Dec 4, 2011)

Fluorspar can be found in rock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorite

Sodium carbonate (soda Ash) can be found in powdered soaps (automatic dish washing soap here in US.

Borax also found in soap.


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## 4metals (Dec 4, 2011)

Franciz,

If you or your father have been melting gold and silver alloys for 15 years to collect all of those drums of slag, you will definitely have the skills to perform this process. I am not saying I cannot melt a sample for you, I'm saying I will use the same process outlined, most likely get back to you saying "Yep it works" and you will still be in the same position you are in now. Save your money from shipping me a sample and put your time into finding a source of fluorospar, just a few pounds at first to test the method yourself. 

Another method you could try is to ball mill the borax and sift the powder. The borax will have to be completely dry before crushing. Sift the powder to 40 mesh and pick the pieces of metal off the screen. The bad part about crushing and sifting is the remaining powder will still likely have payable values which will have to be recovered by a large smelter. 

I just Googled Fluorspar and found suppliers in China and India, surely one of your chemical suppliers can do the same.


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## Franciz (Dec 5, 2011)

I can't find fluorite powder on ebay too.


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## qst42know (Dec 5, 2011)

You might inquire at your ''inspectorate'' for a source of fluorspar.

It is very important that you find this chemical, you need it far more than you realize. 

When you do have the flux formula right all the valuable metals can be recovered the first time you run your jewelers wastes. Your new recoveries will be more profitable and you can recycle the past wastes.


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## Franciz (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks for all,

I will try to get fluorspar and then try again and get back here with my result with few days.
I hope i will success once i get it.
Let me confirm again with expert here,

100g Slag(Used Borax)
100g Soda Ash
25g fluorspar
No lead needed.
Please let me know how long must i heat it? I am trying this small batch using charcoal furnaces.
Please correct me if i have missed out something or i am wrong....

Thanks and best regs..
Franciz....


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## 4metals (Dec 5, 2011)

For 100 grams of slag,

100 grams of new borax
100 grams of soda ash
25 grams fluorspar

Heat hot enough to melt the metal, at that point the flux will be very thin. You can verify how thin the flux is by dipping in a graphite stir rod to stir the melt and observing the thickness of the slag as it drips off the stir rod.

Pour it into a cone mold. 

Get back to us to let us know how this works for you.


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## Franciz (Dec 5, 2011)

Sure, I will be back here with my result onces i have try this method but first i must try to get fluorspar first.
:lol: :lol: :lol: 
I am going to city today to find fluorspar, I hope i can get it...
Thanks again 4metal...
Wish you all the best.




4metals said:


> For 100 grams of slag,
> 
> 100 grams of new borax
> 100 grams of soda ash
> ...


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## Franciz (Dec 6, 2011)

Dear all,

I have a serious question to ask, Today i have been to my local chemical store for ''calcium fluoride'' they say they can order for me but it is about USD83/- per 250grams.
I mean why it is so expensive?
Does anyone here experience buying in bulk, can you please tell me the price that you buy....
Thanks....


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## samuel-a (Dec 6, 2011)

I purchased locally 1Kg for about 14$

When i asked them to quote me a pallet size order (above 500Kg), if memory serves me well, it was less then 3$ a kilo.

We are on very different places so this info might be somewhat irrelevant...


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## butcher (Dec 6, 2011)

Find another source or try rock shops, you could buy the rock (almost pure crystal) on intranet and have shipped, or maybe find in chemical form online.

your almost reaching your goal, do not give up, we want to see that gold in your hand.

NAMES to look for____ calcium fluorite, CaF2, fluorite, fluorspar

Notice spellings fluorite (not fluoride), very important.

these my help?

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rlz=1R2RNQN_enUS457&source=hp&q=buy+fluorite&oq=buy+fluorite&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=45000l46500l1l47218l4l4l0l0l0l1l890l1765l6-2l2l0&rlz=1R2RNQN_enUS457&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=497a0dbec56255c7&biw=1024&bih=535

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorite



http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=fluorspar&_sacat=0&_odkw=fluorspar&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313



http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=calcium+fluorite&_sacat=0&_odkw=calcium+fluoride&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313




http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=fluorite&_sacat=0&_odkw=fluorspar&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313


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## Franciz (Dec 6, 2011)

butcher said:


> Find another source or try rock shops, you could buy the rock (almost pure crystal) on intranet and have shipped, or maybe find in chemical form online.
> 
> your almost reaching your goal, do not give up, we want to see that gold in your hand.
> 
> ...




Dear Butcher,
I hope i will have gold from my used borax to show you guys too. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
But i am still trying to find fluorite powder before i can try again.   

Anyone here able to buy or have fluorite or flourspar powder in their hand and is willing to sell me 1 pound?
I can pay using paypal...
PLEASE HELP ME OUT..... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: 
Thanks and best regs..
Franciz...


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## qst42know (Dec 6, 2011)

Those that supply the ceramics or glass industries may be a good place to look locally.

It might be a long wait to get it from this company to Thailand.

Fluorspar in small and large quantities. This company also carries several other chemicals of interest to refiners.

http://www.standardceramic.com/Materials.html

This mineral is mined in Thailand it's hard to believe they don't keep any for use there.


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## butcher (Dec 6, 2011)

qst42know, great source Thanks.


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## 4metals (Dec 6, 2011)

http://www.lmine.com/mm5/merchant.m...t_Code=17120-50&Category_Code=flux_components


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## Franciz (Dec 7, 2011)

Dear All,

Good news, I manage to talk to a local fluorspars supplier.
Price around USD200/- Per M/T.
90% up fluorspars powder.
I will get it by this week and will try to smelt again onces i have the fluorspars.
Will post result after smelting :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Thanks again for all expert who support....
Franciz


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## Franciz (Dec 8, 2011)

Dear expert,

I will soon have 
1)Fluorite Powder 90%up
2)Soda ash, Light

Do I Need to have silica sand too?

Thanks all for advising.
Franciz


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## 4metals (Dec 8, 2011)

no silica, you did forget borax though.


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## niteliteone (Dec 8, 2011)

Franciz said:


> Dear All,
> 
> Good news, I manage to talk to a local fluorspars supplier.
> Price around USD200/- Per M/T.
> ...



YAAAHHH!!!    
I wish you the best  

Tom C


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## Franciz (Dec 10, 2011)

Dear all expert,

I have try to smelt it today, 
100g used borax 
100g new borax
100g soda ash, lght 
25g fluorite 95%up

I smelt it for almost 2Hr, this method really really thin the borax and i was be able to pour it all to a cone mold i have made but i can see still alot and tiny metal color on top and middle of the cone mold(It refuse to sink all to the bottom) I have taken some picture using my cellphone with my finger pointing.

Please advice me what i have done wrong(i have already heated the cone to red hot and put some oil on it.)


The borax i chipped out from the cone mold is not clear, It is green color,red line, brown line and some are clear black like glass.

I hope i can success recover those precious metal in my used borax with the guide from expert here.....

Again i wish all people here all the best!!!!!!!!

Thanks for helping all the time
Franciz......


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## Franciz (Dec 10, 2011)

Cone mold i have made using waste stainless steel sheet.


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## samuel-a (Dec 10, 2011)

In my humble opinion, a collector should be used.
Though, i'm not sure of the correct proportions.


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## Franciz (Dec 10, 2011)

Dear samuel-a,

Thanks for advice.

But i think the problem don't lies on collector it just don sink to the bottom.
Any idea what goes wrong?

Thanks and best regs .....
FRanciz


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## Westerngs (Dec 10, 2011)

To all,

I am thinking that Franciz here is going to have to use a metal collector. If the assay is accurate it totals <0.3%. When you melt pure silver you expect slag losses of about 0.5% or so.

I would suggest copper.

Alternately, Franciz, you can melt, pour off about 80% of melt so you don't pour off metals at bottom of the crucible, add new material/flux mixture and repeat many times. Eventually you will collect enough metal at the bottom of the crucible to pour into a mold and recover.

I think the reason the metals don't collect is that there are not enough to collect.


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## Franciz (Dec 10, 2011)

Westerngs said:


> To all,
> 
> I am thinking that Franciz here is going to have to use a metal collector. If the assay is accurate it totals <0.3%. When you melt pure silver you expect slag losses of about 0.5% or so.
> 
> ...



Hi, 
What do you mean 0.3% and slag losses 0.5% or so. Can you please explain?
My assay report is 
Au 28.03/Mt 
Ag 137g/mt 
Thanks


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## Westerngs (Dec 10, 2011)

I meant to say that your assay from inspectorate shows about 0.23% total metals, copper, silver and gold. That is just not very much and will be hard to collect by melting.

If you take say pure silver, and melt it using flux, it is expected that you will not recover 100% of the silver after melting. You will lose about 0.5% of the initial weight to the slag.


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## Franciz (Dec 10, 2011)

Westerngs said:


> I meant to say that your assay from inspectorate shows about 0.23% total metals, copper, silver and gold. That is just not very much and will be hard to collect by melting.
> 
> If you take say pure silver, and melt it using flux, it is expected that you will not recover 100% of the silver after melting. You will lose about 0.5% of the initial weight to the slag.



How about gold, Will i lose some also?

Kind regs..
franciz


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## Westerngs (Dec 10, 2011)

you will lose all metals in proportion to the content in the starting material.


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## 4metals (Dec 10, 2011)

Generally with a solid powder you are correct and a collector is needed, but this material was simply borax. The borax will remelt and mix with the newly added borax and soad ash and be thinned by the fluorspar to the point where the metals will drop through the very thin liquid. 

I have melted both sweeps requiring a collector and sweeps made of just old crushed slag, the slag always warrants an attempt to recover the values by thinning and it usually is effective. 

Please note that the slag resulting from the thinning may still contain payable values if it is further processed into a powder, but then again so will the resulting slags from a process using a collector.


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## skippy (Dec 10, 2011)

My question is why add new borax to the old borax, it seems wrong to me to dilute this material even further. Add whatever needs to be added to thin the flux of course.
It also would be nice if this old flux could be used to flux another recovery process, to me that seems better than spending all this time and energy and you only recover the values in the old flux and get no other benefit from the process.


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## Franciz (Dec 10, 2011)

4metals said:


> Generally with a solid powder you are correct and a collector is needed, but this material was simply borax. The borax will remelt and mix with the newly added borax and soad ash and be thinned by the fluorspar to the point where the metals will drop through the very thin liquid.
> 
> I have melted both sweeps requiring a collector and sweeps made of just old crushed slag, the slag always warrants an attempt to recover the values by thinning and it usually is effective.
> 
> Please note that the slag resulting from the thinning may still contain payable values if it is further processed into a powder, but then again so will the resulting slags from a process using a collector.



Dear 4metal, 
What should i do now to completely remove the precious metal from my slag and make it sink to the bottom?
Can you please teach me step by step? 
Kind regs.....
Thanks...


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## qst42know (Dec 11, 2011)

Franciz

Did you melt in your home made cone mold?

Your mold may be too narrow to allow your metals to settle. Have a look at the proper molds on this page.

http://www.lmine.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LMS&Category_Code=slag_molds


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## 4metals (Dec 11, 2011)

Skippy,

The flux formula to prevent bead hang up in the flux on a fresh melt is 2 parts borax, 1 part soda ash, and 1/4 part fluorspar. If you only used borax, as Franciz did, the used slag should be 100% borax. So the mix for used slag which was straight borax is 1 part old slag, 1 part borax, 1 part so a ash, and 1/4 part fluorspar.

Franciz,

You said your original slag was borax and the formula I listed will thin the old borax very effectively. In your 15 years accumulating this material, if it was kept relatively clean and stored in drums, the formula should work. It will be obvious to see the thinning effect the fluorspar will have on the flux.

If your collection of used slag was piled in a heap in the back yard and all types of dirt and crap were included in with the slag that is a different story. Then the use of a copper collector may be necessary. Your goal after fluxing is to have a thin glassy looking slag free of any trapped particles, then your values will likely be on the bottom in the cone mold. If the slag is still thick and trapping particles then you have more in there than you started with. You have the formulas, now you have to experiment with what you have.


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## butcher (Dec 11, 2011)

I know 4Metals will help you get that gold, :lol: Just do not give up.
Almost there.


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## Franciz (Dec 11, 2011)

Dear all,

Can i don't add new borax and do it in another way? 
New Borax cost USD1000/- per M/T
Fluorite Cost USD200/- per M/T
Soda Ash Cost USD550/- per M/T

I will lose money or no profit if i do it this way.
Can i replace new borax with silica sand?

Thanks and best regs....
Franciz....


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## 4metals (Dec 11, 2011)

First the soda ash was too expensive,

Then the fluorspar, 

Now the borax. 

You've been melting with just borax for 15 years and now its too expensive.

You have been given some good suggestions here both with thinning and with using a copper collector. I think its time you do some work at the furnace.


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## Franciz (Dec 11, 2011)

4metals said:


> First the soda ash was too expensive,
> 
> Then the fluorspar,
> 
> ...



Dear 4metal,
what do you mean actually?
For today spot gold price value of gold in my used borax is about USD1,525/- and value of silver is about USD130/- in 1 metric ton of used borax.

If i am going to recycle 1m/t of used borax i need to add in 1m/t of new borax which it already cost USD1000/- per m/t and 1m/t of Soda ash which cost 550 this has not include Fluorite and oil for the furnaces.

Teach me how to make profit if there is a need to add in new borax and cannot find other item to replace new borax?

Franciz......


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## 4metals (Dec 12, 2011)

Franciz said;



> Last i have use a hammer to break my crucible to collect the lead below. I dissolve it in nitric acid and i use salt to test if there is silver, i have recover 3grams++ of silver in my 50grams used borax that i try to smelt today i have jump and shout out loud as i am so happy but there is still lot of many small bead in the borax'' Million very small white bead''



If this is true, you have over 1700 ounces of silver per ton. Quite different from your assays. I said early on that it is difficult to sample that quantity accurately, you should take small samples from different ares of your slag to get a better idea of what you have. I doubt you have 1700 ounces of silver per ton either. 

You speak of buying tons of the fluxing chemicals before you know if it will work for you. Buy a bag of soda ash and a bag of fluorspar and use your existing borax to run some tests on your pile. If your slag is simply beads hung up in slag as you say, you will be able to collect the beads in a cone mold. 

Report your results when you have some from small samples of your flux pile.


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## Harold_V (Dec 12, 2011)

It's clear to me that Franciz is seeking a method of recovery that involves no cost. That's not going to happen, and it may well be that the value of the material to be recovered is smaller than the cost of recovery. That's one of the things you must consider when you create messes such as have been reported. Had proper melting techniques been employed at the outset, there wouldn't be a ton of value containing slag to be processed. 

Franciz, you're simply going to have to make a decision. Invest in the needed supplies, factor in the cost of fuel and your time, and see if it warrants the effort required. If you feel it does not, you may be able to sell the slag to a processer. That was one of the options open to me when I ran my waste materials, but I ensured that I used a flux recipe that didn't permit much to be left behind. An assay of the slag determined it couldn't be processed economically for what little remained. You may well be in the same situation. 

I get the impression that if the question is asked enough times that the "magic secret" of how to extract the values will be disclosed. 

There is no "magic secret". Franciz, you have been advised by one of the more knowledgeable people on this forum. If he doesn't provide the answer you seek, it's most likely because you aren't realistic in your expectations. 

Harold


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## Franciz (Dec 12, 2011)

I have try to smelt it without adding new borax today.
100g used borax.
80g soda ash light.
50g fluorite.
10g lead bar 
The result is great, It really flow like water. But i get no gold and can see a little bit of silver.
The silver is too little so i did not recover it.
May i know how you guys know if those precious metal has completely sink to the bottom when smelting?


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## Franciz (Dec 12, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> It's clear to me that Franciz is seeking a method of recovery that involves no cost.
> Dear all,
> 
> Can i don't add new borax and do it in another way?
> ...


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## 4metals (Dec 12, 2011)

Franciz,

You joined this forum at the end of November and 1 day later started asking about selling your flux. You have been given suggestions as to what to do and formulations to follow and you have yet to follow them exactly as written, every time you report back you have changed proportions or added lead. You can see how thin the fluorspar makes the flux from what you have just reported back, now do what is suggested. If you add lead it will mix with all of the metals that come down and it will all look like lead unless you cupel it. When you do get a button chances are it will not appear gold in color even if there is gold in it, what you are trying is to collect all of the metallic particles. After collecting you move on to refining. 

I've tried very hard to get you to do this in a specific way but you don't seem to be able to do it. Until you come back here after following the formula without additional materials and report a result, I'm done with suggestions. There is a lot you can learn from experimentation, but you have to experiment in an orderly deliberate way, I don't think you get that part.


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## skippy (Dec 12, 2011)

Franciz

In one melt use all old borax and see how much values ends up in the bead.
In the second use additional fresh borax as has been recommended, and see how much ends up in the bead. Have assays done on each bead 
Then you'll know how well you have done, figure out your costs and go from there. Just two experiments, and you'll have learned a lot.

Oh and grind up enough borax together so you have enough to do multiple experiments on a consistently loaded material. If you take a separate sample each time you do an experiment,
you will know nothing for certain.

Also another option might be to do the sodium carbonate + fluorite fluxing of the material with and without the extra borax and then have the flux itself assayed post reprocessing to see how much precious metal fell out of each flux. Maybe this approach be accurate enough to make a decision with too and might be easier, if you are having a hard time recovering a bead.


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## Harold_V (Dec 13, 2011)

Franciz said:


> Can i replace new borax with silica sand?


Silica sand does not melt at the temperatures in consideration. However, in the presence of soda ash, it dissolves (it's called glass then). I see no particular reason to add silica.

Stop changing the game plan. Try one thing at a time and don't make any changes until you have determined if you are successful, or not. Do not trust your eyes. You do not have the ability to see if the values have been recovered, or not. An assay will make that determination for you. 

If you find that there are no prills in the material after it has been processed, it's entirely possible it has been harvested. You'd know that by pouring the molten slag to a cone mold, where the values would be found in the bottom, at the very tip of the cone. 

No need for me to go in to the added lead. That has already been well covered. What there is need for is for you to try running a small lot without adding lead, to see if you achieve your goal. If there is silver present, it, too, should report in the harvested metals. You CAN NOT determine what you are harvesting visually----all you can ascertain is that you are, or are not, harvesting.



> Do you think i am seeking a method of recovery that involves no cost?
> For me, It is a question and not seeking for magic answer.
> If you know any Magic answer please share it here....


There is no magic answer. There is no magic answer. There is no magic answer. 

Harold


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## Franciz (Dec 13, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Franciz said:
> 
> 
> > Can i replace new borax with silica sand?
> ...



Thanks Harold,

I will try every method with small batch and see if i get any prill.

Every time after i smelt it left full of tiny metallic color on top, It is in powder form all metallic color.
Full of metallic color and just refuse to sink.
For this issue, issit because i don give enough time for it to sink?

Thanks ......


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## Harold_V (Dec 13, 2011)

Franciz said:


> Every time after i smelt it left full of tiny metallic color on top, It is in powder form all metallic color.
> Full of metallic color and just refuse to sink.
> For this issue, issit because i don give enough time for it to sink?
> 
> Thanks ......


Are you using a graphite/clay crucible? What you are seeing is most likely graphite on the surface---it has nothing to do with precious metals. Fluorspar and soda ash are very aggressive. They tend to dissolve silica, and are equally hard on other materials, including alumina. You'll come to discover your melting vessel won't last long. 

This operation is very fundamental. Melt the material, and allow it to soak for a period of time. If it is fluid enough, the values will settle to the bottom. Once they gather, they will remain as one bit of metal, which you will find in the tip of the cone, assuming you're pouring to a cone mold. If you are not, you may be wasting your time, because you'll have to bread up every pour to see where the small button of metal is. 

If, after you've melting and poured the slag, you can still see tiny prills spread through the slag, you'll know that what you're doing isn't working. If you can't find any prills, you'll know one of two things. One is that they have all gathered in one place because of the proper heating, or they have been absorbed by the slag and are no longer visible. That would happen only if they are well oxidized and do not contain any gold. If that's the case, you haven't lost anything----it was never there in the beginning. 

Remember---follow the instructions you received from 4metals to the letter. Do not experiment---just do as he says. In the end, when you think you have solved the riddle, it would be important to have the resulting slag assayed to see if you are leaving behind any values that can be recovered. If so, you must then do something different. 

Harold


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## j2000 (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks for all information 
This is happen to me also...many configuration i try...but the goll always never collect together into the bottom of graphite....
IN Last 2 days my flux chapman and fluorspar arrived...i test many configuration....
until i test 100% gold powder and 50% chapman flux and 25% fluorspar...
The result is the same..the gold cannot collect tobe 1 bead...

I think my gold powder is not much gold...

Regards

Joel


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 22, 2014)

j2000,

Is this the type furnace and graphite crucible you're using? Not the brand necessarily, but the type?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-KG-Gold-Melting-Furnace-Kiln-Machine-110V-Refining-Casting-Gold-Silver-2102-F-/321259634263

About the only thing they are good for is melting gold or silver for casting, in my experience. That's what they were designed for. They are very slow to heat up and won't take heavy fluxing at all. Harold and I have both owned these and found them to be totally worthless. I used mine once. You would be much better off with a torch and melting dish. I prefer these thick ones with a handle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Dish-With-Handle-Pour-Gold-Bars-Crucible-and-Tong-Set-/221308144502?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3386fe4b76


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## kurtak (Feb 23, 2014)

Joel

where &/or how did you get the powders you are trying to melt 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 23, 2014)

GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section

based on the color of the slag he has pictured there - he ether has some gold mixed in with a LOT of iron - or he just has iron (oxide/rust) which is why I asked where &/or how he got the powders he is trying to melt

At this point I don't know if he is trying to work with more of the same powders - or if he is trying to re-melt/smelt the slag from his first try only with the addition of fluorspar now

Kurt


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 23, 2014)

> GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section



I was concerned with what melting equipment was being used. I probably should have posted in the other thread.

When you try to more complicated stuff like this, you need to use melting equipment that will give you, at least, a fighting chance to be successful. Success is in the fluxing and, unless you know exactly what flux mixture to use, you have to frequently stand over it, watch it work, stir it, and make flux additions. I know of no electrical furnace setup that will allow you do these things with any sort of efficiency.

You need gas. Either a torch setup or a crucible furnace or, preferably, both.


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## j2000 (Feb 25, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> j2000,
> 
> Is this the type furnace and graphite crucible you're using? Not the brand necessarily, but the type?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-KG-Gold-Melting-Furnace-Kiln-Machine-110V-Refining-Casting-Gold-Silver-2102-F-/321259634263
> ...



Yes like that GSP...
Need 30min from cold to 1000c, but no problem...around 45min temp rise to max 1150c, i hold it until 30min, pour it, put again another no need total 45min to rise 1150c.
The quality is really not good...but enough for beginner like me....
I will buy american made...when my problem solve...hehehe...
Coz many tools i have is made-in USA, it's very good quality...

I have victor torch oxy/ace or victor turbo torch propane only...but my powder is really small, i have wire mesh 325 still cannot filter that powder...
Too much powder blown up when i use torch...
Or u have experience for melting powder with mesh over 325 with torch?
I really have a problem to handle this powder with torch...

Thanks 

Joel.


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## j2000 (Feb 25, 2014)

kurtak said:


> Joel
> 
> where &/or how did you get the powders you are trying to melt
> 
> Kurt



i got from my customer, that powder after chemical processing but they don't tell me...
I have more than 7kg/14lbs, and much more IF i can resolve the problem...

Thanks

Joel


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## j2000 (Feb 25, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> > GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks GSP, you r right...it's need to fighting to be successful...i hope almost...

For this powder, i prefer electric furnace...
I have chinesse melting furnace 1150c, but i can make it over 1300c with manipulate the thermocouple, but now the chamber have lil crack in few times using and damage the thermocuple few times but no problem i still have more thermocouple parts...it's still ok, but i worried about the ceramic chamber...
But can it hold until few thousand time to melt crucible...at least until my 7kg powder finish to be gold...coz when i can resolve it..i will buy electric furnace made-in usa...hehehe

Best Regards

Joel


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## j2000 (Feb 25, 2014)

kurtak said:


> GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section
> 
> based on the color of the slag he has pictured there - he ether has some gold mixed in with a LOT of iron - or he just has iron (oxide/rust) which is why I asked where &/or how he got the powders he is trying to melt
> 
> ...



Thanks kurt, u absolutely right..., this black color is iron...
I just doubt with that smell (after i melt and wash with hot water) is something like rust of iron...and finally i know it's really iron...
When i melt, and i pour to the water, there's blink of gold (yellow) but the major parts is black...before i don't know/sure it's iron, i think reaction with my borax...
When i use Citric Acid (not nitric acid) with hot water, the parts of black is totally gone...and the color of water to be yellow to almost green...as another member said, yellow color in the water is not gold but possible is oxidation of iron...
But iam sad, too much acid make the gold floating in the water, need 3 days to wating the very very tiny powder of gold sink to the bottom...

*yes same powder like my pic in my another thread kurt...

Regards

Joel


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## butcher (Feb 25, 2014)

Have you tried to incinerate the powder, and leach the gold out with a chloride leach?


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## j2000 (Mar 20, 2014)

butcher said:


> Have you tried to incinerate the powder, and leach the gold out with a chloride leach?



Sorry butcher,
I dont know what is: Chloride leach.
Could u gimme some info about chloride leach?

Thanks

Joel


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## butcher (Mar 21, 2014)

The chloride leach can be made from several different things, we discuss here on the forum to dissolve gold, these can be HCl/HNO3 (aqua regia), or HCl/NaClO (bleach or sodium hypochlorite), or HCl/32% H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), these are the more common.


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## ashir (Dec 30, 2018)

ehat are other thining agents used in flux out of florspar, as flourspar is too much expensive here, round about 350 dollars per kg


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## butcher (Dec 30, 2018)

Look for fluorspar in pretty colored rocks.


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## ashir (Jan 4, 2019)

thanks butcher.


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## butcher (Jan 4, 2019)

Uv light and the rocks glow.

https://geology.com/articles/fluorescent-minerals/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorite


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## g_axelsson (Jan 4, 2019)

Not all fluorite displays fluorescence and a whole lot of other minerals does so it isn't a very good indicator.

Göran


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