# Gold Conductor Paste - Please Advise



## NeoRock (Oct 22, 2019)

I would really appreciate some guidance, novice here. I have taken good pictures which I am attaching to illustrate my conundrum. Long story short, after helping my cousin with some things, (who is now in Africa filming wildlife for 6 months, so I can’t ask him anything) - I was left with what he told me was “Gold Conductor Paste.” - PLS SEE PIC A 
He was using it off label for something specific, but I believe he said, it was generally used for “printing conductor lines in electronic boards.” I received the conductor paste in a small plastic tube & some more in a “zip lock style” sandwich bag.
So I’ve been reading the forums & watching videos, trying to find out the best way to melt & sell it. I left it in drawer with a Desiccant bag which dried it out and I was able to scrape out most of it (about 30g), now in a “dirt” kind of consistency. After scraping most of the gold paste out….I also still have a decent amount of left over gold paste stuck to the plastic tube and plastic bag, - PLS SEE PIC B - any simple way to separate the gold from the plastic?? (its very soft plastic). 

I was told the paste is more than 22K, close to pure, that it has very miniscule amounts of additives which, in the normal manufacturing process of using it for circuit board printing, are designed to burn off leaving just gold in the normal circuit board…. I had a gold tester kit, so I checked with the 22K solution - PLS SEE PIC D. PIC D is the gold with Nitric & Muriatic Acid on it - I got absolutely zero reaction. So I read the forums and watched a bunch of videos for a couple of weeks...and figured it would be fun to learn...and melt so I built a little “can” foundry off one of the youtube vids and have some map gas going to it - SEE PIC E & PIC F…..PIC F is image of my graphite crucible inside the can foundry. The sides of the can (the “insulation” is made of equal parts, “plaster of paris” and sand...and of course a bit of water….dried for 2 days. ****** Please note...Obviously I am doing the actual melting attempt outside in ventilated area but took the pictures inside for better clarity*****

I also got some borax to get out any impurities (which I throw in a pinch while the flame was on). I am only using a bit of the gold (about size of a pomegranate seed) until I can see it melt & know I am doing it right….then I will do the bulk. 
However, I am not sure what I am doing wrong….as it seems never to get to the melting point. I just end up getting a much drier version of the “dirt” consistency but with yellow colored gold highlights - 
So I have a couple of questions…much obliged to you guys for any help...Thank you.

1)Any advice on why I am not getting to the melting point, especially since on my test runs, I am only trying to melt a tiny amount (about size of a pomegranate seed)??
2) Is there an easy method to separate the Left Over gold paste stuck to the walls of the plastic tube & plastic bag that I can’t scrape out?
3)Also, any safety concerns with my setup?
4)Anyone know if I can just sell it in the “dirt” consistency or would I lose too much value?
5)Any additional suggestions, much much appreciated. 

Thank you very much folks, my apologies for the lengthy post, just wanted to be thorough. If anything needs to be clarified, please let me know. 

Much Obliged,
Mark


p.s. the post keeps reversing my image order....if you hover with the mouse over the image, the name will appear as its referenced above.


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## butcher (Oct 22, 2019)

You could melt the plastic and glass if you wish along with the powder.

I can see the furnace has fuel gas, but where is it getting the air or oxygen to burn the fuel and provide the heat needed to melt the gold?

It may work better just using the torch (with its gas/air mixing tip) and melt the gold in the dish directly without the furnace.


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## anachronism (Oct 22, 2019)

Yes completely concur- that torch is good enough to melt a small amount without making it into a furnace. I used to be able to melt up to an ounce with a mapp gas torch.


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## NeoRock (Oct 22, 2019)

butcher said:


> You could melt the plastic and glass if you wish along with the powder.
> 
> I can see the furnace has fuel gas, but where is it getting the air or oxygen to burn the fuel and provide the heat needed to melt the gold?
> 
> It may work better just using the torch (with its gas/air mixing tip) and melt the gold in the dish directly without the furnace.



Thank you for your reply, much appreciated. Please excuse my ignorance as I am very much a novice. The video I was following did not have another "hole" for oxygen...but now that you say it, that makes perfect sense. Obviously, more oxygen, higher burning. Should I just make a hold on the other side of the can??

Also, you said "you could melt the plastic along with the powder".... would that not contaminate the gold with the plastic, or does it burn off completely?

And initially I did try just using the torch portion of my setup, but even trying to melt a "pomegranate seed size" amount, wouldn't happen. I had the gold in a crucible and had the torch on it for more than 5 minutes but all I (see image attached) got was a harder spec, with yellow highlights on it. I am also attaching the data sheet for the actual paste...


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## NeoRock (Oct 22, 2019)

anachronism said:


> Yes completely concur- that torch is good enough to melt a small amount without making it into a furnace. I used to be able to melt up to an ounce with a mapp gas torch.



Thank you anachronism, I appreciate it. I did try the mapp gas torch initially, (three attempts) but even trying to melt a tiny spec of it inside a crucible...didn't work for. The result was (attached images). Please keep in mind this was torching it in excess of 5 minutes. What I also kept running into was the "blue flame" of the torch would stutter after a couple of minutes & would turn into a regular yellow flame. I would get it going again, just not sure why it kept happening.... The map gas is almost finished, but I bought another one....

Any thoughts?
Thank you


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## anachronism (Oct 22, 2019)

I think it's the bonding agent that's causing you the problem.

Remember that it's fired to achieve the bond. You need a solvent for the bonding agent to free up the gold.

Edit for typo.


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## NeoRock (Oct 22, 2019)

anachronism said:


> I think it's the bonding agent that's causing you the problem.
> 
> Remember that it's fired to achieve the bond. You need a solvent for the bonding agent to free up the gold.
> 
> Edit for typo.




I think you are spot on...I was told it was mostly pure, but had some additives. Normally, this paste would be used to print conductor lines on a substrate and the substrate run through a very long furnace. As it proceeded (very slowly) from one end to the other end of the furnace (I believe they said like half an hour), while it was in there...the additives would burn off, leaving the "cured" gold as "conductor lines." --- see attached image, its the end result of what this paste was originally intended for

With that in mind, shouldn't the torch do the same and "burn off the additives?" 

Otherwise, I am not sure what the "bonding agent" is, any ides on figuring out what solvent to use? 
Originally, I didn't even want the stuff, I was just happy to help my cuz...but he insisted... as a "thank you" as he was leaving to Africa. I then almost throw it out, as I didn't know what to do with it...but then saw this forum & also some videos....Thank you very much....

Edit to add image


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## butcher (Oct 22, 2019)

The torch head itself is designed to pull in air mix it with fuel at the nozzle giving you the hot blue flame (oxidizing flame), starved of air (oxygen) the fuel burns with a cool (reducing) yellow flame.

If the flame from the torch is burning yellow it will not be hot enough.
Some torches use screens in the torch head that can get corroded or fouled from the misuse, you might check to see if it has a screen that needs to be cleaned.

The furnace might work if you can get the torch head into the hole you have already, where the torch head can pull its own air, you want a blue flame in the furnace...

The torch with its blue flame is hot enough to burn off the plastic, melt the glass into slag, and melt the gold.
But we also have to consider other factors:
How much does it take to heat the melting dish?
How much heat is wasted trying to keep the dish hot cherry red hot?
What is radiating heat away from the dish, say if the crucible or melting dish was sitting on a big heat sink like a thick plate of copper the copper will pull heat away from the dish-- if the melting dish was in the air which would not be as much of a heat sink we are not using up fuel just to try and get the gold in the dish hot enough...
Even the crucible itself or melting dish is a heat sink that can pull away or consume heat that would otherwise be used to melt the gold.

You can boil water in a paper cup over an open fire, where the water is a heat sink for the cup...


I cannot see where you would need any solvent to melt the gold to metal.
My guess is the solvent is most likely used to thin the paste before firing.

I am unsure of the binding agent, but from what I can read of the datasheet they are firing these traces at 850 degrees C for 30 minutes on certain substrates like alumina, which is below the melting point of gold (1064 deg C), so they are not melting gold into a gold metal wire or trace...

The bonding agent may become part of the electrically conductive trace after firing (I do not know) can you get the MSDS sheet to figure out what the binding agent is, and one for what the solvent is?

You may have to flux melt out the boding agent, firing below the melting point of gold you can make a blob of gold along with its binder.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 22, 2019)

To quote Harold... Incinerate!

Just incinerate any plastic with gold at it. You will be left with a little bit of ash and the gold powder. The binder in the paste will also burn away when you melt it, there's no need to dissolve the binder.

Göran


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## snoman701 (Oct 22, 2019)

It’s likely a polymer to aid in the screen printing. Needs to be thixotropic to go through the screen. 

You don’t want to try to use solvents....you’ll just make a mess. Lay it out thin and fire it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NeoRock (Oct 23, 2019)

butcher said:


> The torch head itself is designed to pull in air mix it with fuel at the nozzle giving you the hot blue flame (oxidizing flame), starved of air (oxygen) the fuel burns with a cool (reducing) yellow flame.
> 
> If the flame from the torch is burning yellow it will not be hot enough.
> Some torches use screens in the torch head that can get corroded or fouled from the misuse, you might check to see if it has a screen that needs to be cleaned.
> ...




Butcher, thank you very much. That was really informative…. I learned a lot from your post and you touched on a couple of points that occurred to me after I had already posted. And thank you for being so thorough, that was great ...appreciate your time.

There is a “3 point shape C” inside the torch head, (see image) Does it seem good enough to you?

My first try was blasting a spec of the gold directly with the torch. However, after 2 or 3 minutes it would turn into the “yellow” flame….Exactly as you mentioned, then couple of seconds later, it would go out “stuttering” (even though I was holding it very steady). Once I setup the furnace pictured above, the flame stayed on…but again, never to melt. 
Your description of “heat loss” in respect to the various items “acting” as heat sinks may have unearthed the issue. I realized I had the crucible sitting on the bottom of the furnace...it was even sitting a little lower than hole where the gas was coming in (attached image). From what you said, its better if the crucible is lifted a bit in the air, correct? 

In respect to solvents, I do remember him mentioning when the gold paste was too thick, they would add a couple of drops of some Dupont thinner (referenced in the datasheet above) to get the viscosity to a workable level, then print, then fire it…as once again you impressively, already knew. Also, they did only use micron amounts of the paste on each alumina, so not sure if that made the firing process much easier.
I filled out a “MSDS” request form on Dupont site for the paste & thinning agent as googling for over an hour, I couldn’t find them anywhere. Hopefully, they send it & I’ll post here.

I got some Borax from amazon (also attached image). Vids I watched said to use borax to get impurities out. Should I use this at all or is the "flux melting" you mentioned different? 
Also, I saw canisters of oxygen at home depot. If I made a hole on the other side & had oxygen going in, would this dramatically increase the temperature & make things faster or not necessary?? Thought I had another can, but I am almost out of the mapgas. I do have 2 big cans of propane which I know has somewhat lower burning temp... will the propane suffice?

Again, thank you very much, really do appreciate your time...& pickin your brain


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## butcher (Oct 23, 2019)

Even for the same gas, not all torch heads or brands are alike, some are just better quality than others, some will burn much hotter than other brands on the same gas, but if working properly will melt gold.

Propane/air is will melt gold in the proper setup, but it is more difficult, it is not as hot as propane oxygen or Mapp gas, acetylene/oxygen...

You might try taking your torch head apart and cleaning it.

You do not need a furnace to melt gold.
I like the small ceramic melting dishes, they work good with a good Mapp gas torch.

You may not need the borax or flux agents since you have a graphite crucible, the borax flux can help lower the melting temperature and help the melt flow, or raise the viscosity of the melt so the metals combine better in the melt, it would also provide some glass to cover the melt and help to keep it from sticking to a ceramic melting dish.
In a flux melt, it is a part of the flux recipe used to control the chemistry going on in the melt.

With a ceramic melting dish, and melting pure gold we will sprinkle just a little borax on the red hot dish, just to coat it with molten glass so the molten metal will not stick to the dish and the molten can be poured from the dish.

In a flux melt, we use much more borax is used along with other flux components like oxidizing or reducing agents... 
When using graphite melting fairly pure gold the borax is not needed to keep the gold from sticking.

As far as modifying your furnace with another hole and adding oxygen, you could make it into a cute little bomb if you do not know what you were doing. I would mix gas and air before it enters the furnace.


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## anachronism (Oct 23, 2019)

Or the OP could just take the KISS approach instead of complicating it. 8) 8) 

Jon


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## butcher (Oct 23, 2019)

Propane or Mapp gas, like oxygen, can be a liquid or gas, with the bottled fuel gas turning the torch (fuel bottle) upside down can feed liquid to the torch instead of gaseous fuel, thus giving you more liquid to the orifice and less of the more volatile fuel gases, resulting in a lack of air, cooler burn, and a yellow flame-spitting or sputtering to stay lit...


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## Martijn (Oct 23, 2019)

I believe for a furnace like that to work well, the gas/flame/torch inlet should be ofset from the center, creating a vortex of flames around the crucible in the center. This distributes the heat a lot better, increasing the temerature. your's looks like it is aimed exactly to the center. It could make a lot of difference.


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## anachronism (Oct 23, 2019)

Martijn said:


> I believe for a furnace like that to work well, the gas/flame/torch inlet should be ofset from the center, creating a vortex of flames around the crucible in the center. This distributes the heat a lot better, increasing the temerature. your's looks like it is aimed exactly to the center. It could make a lot of difference.



The issue is that the Mapp gas is running at not that much higher a temperature than the melting point of gold. The nozzle on the bottle is designed to get the most efficiency out of that gas. Once you start altering things and introducing a whole host of other variables it's only decreasing in efficiency.


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## butcher (Oct 23, 2019)

View attachment melt.rtf

some pictures

glazing melting dish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRHh_fqfQoE

Martijn, is correct in his assessment of a well-built furnace design. He was not speaking about modifying the torch but how the fire burns around the crucible inside the furnace...


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## Martijn (Oct 23, 2019)

anachronism said:


> Martijn said:
> 
> 
> > I believe for a furnace like that to work well, the gas/flame/torch inlet should be ofset from the center, creating a vortex of flames around the crucible in the center. This distributes the heat a lot better, increasing the temerature. your's looks like it is aimed exactly to the center. It could make a lot of difference.
> ...



Point taken. It just caught my eye. If he should use propane with oxygen in the future to run this furnace, the crucilbe would mostly get heated from one side. Thats not ideal and could wear the crucilbe from one side faster.


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## butcher (Oct 23, 2019)

I cannot say what the binders are in the conductive paste, I have never worked with them.

But I used to make my own paste solders of lead or silver composition, and low-temperature paste solders you can solder copper wires with a match. 

The conductive pastes have a low melting point, they are fused to aluminas, or glass or some other substrate and need to be fire below the melting point of the material the conductive paste is fired upon.

the Binders can be part of the trace after firing (at these lower temperatures) say carbon for changing the resistance of the trace or wire, metal oxide powders like copper or cadmium, glass binders, metal inorganics, thermoplastics, polyvinyls, and polymers, resins...

I believe most of these organic binding agents would burn off or slag out at the melting temperature of gold, especially with a conductive paste that has a high gold content (for low resistance after firing), but then it also depends on the binder's organic or metallic composition ...


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## Lou (Oct 23, 2019)

Usually binders are glycols, some ketone solvents, and carboxymethylcellulose.


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## NeoRock (Oct 30, 2019)

butcher said:


> Even for the same gas, not all torch heads or brands are alike, some are just better quality than others, some will burn much hotter than other brands on the same gas, but if working properly will melt gold.
> 
> Propane/air is will melt gold in the proper setup, but it is more difficult, it is not as hot as propane oxygen or Mapp gas, acetylene/oxygen...
> 
> ...



A couple of scheduled days in nature turned into a week. Anyhow, just got back and went through your posts as well as the others. Thank you so much Butcher, again.. And everyone else. Even beyond this paste, I have learned so much from you guys. Much appreciated.

So I took apart the torch head, cleaned it as you suggested, although, the torch head was farily new. After cleaning, I tried the direct approach trying to melt just a tiny tiny amount of the paste in the ceramic melting dish, directly aiming the torch on it. But again, even after 5 minutes of directly hitting it with the torch, no melting at all. The blue flame stayed very consistent, keeping the gold glowing hot, but never got to melting. I took a video of a few seconds:

https://youtu.be/-vqx7iV1qEY

Only thing I did see more prounonced gold "spots" (see attached images). At this point, perhaps it is the binders causing me issues.

I did get a reply from Dupont, saying "please see attached for MSDS". But my luck, nothing was attached, I just replied to the email informing the guy his email was empty, so hopefully this time they attach it. I will post as soon as I receive.

I downloaded the images from your other post, Butcher.... If I got a second torch, would that drive up the temperature significantly and/or faster melt perhaps?? 

Also, going back...i had tested the paste by pouring a bit of the 22K solution(nitric acid & muriatic acid) on it, & there was absolutely no reaction. Is there any way those tests ever give a false positive? Even though I was told its pretty close to pure, I ask this because after heating, the material turns very hard and I thought 22K gold is "softer". Could that small amount of the binding agents make it that hard? 

Thank you Butcher...and everyone else.. Truly appreciate everyone's time and input.


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## NeoRock (Oct 30, 2019)

anachronism said:


> Martijn said:
> 
> 
> > I believe for a furnace like that to work well, the gas/flame/torch inlet should be ofset from the center, creating a vortex of flames around the crucible in the center. This distributes the heat a lot better, increasing the temerature. your's looks like it is aimed exactly to the center. It could make a lot of difference.
> ...



Thank you guys for the info...That had occurred to me in the beginning looking up the melting point of gold and then reading the max temp for the Map gas. The mapp gas max temp was not much higher. I did try directly aiming the torch at a small speck of the paste while it sat inside the a ceramic dish... But never could get it to melt, just stayed "glowing hot.:

I just got some "Ceramic Fiber Blanket 8# Density, 2300F" and used this as the lining insulation in addition to getting rid of the plastic tubing and directly connecting the torch head to the can. The crucible is also raised sitting on a little metal stand I made.... see attached images please. Would this possibly be a better setup?? I haven't tried it yet...
The one thing I am not sure of is "torch head should be off center" instruction... Should the torch be aimed at the one side of the crucible? or am I way off?

Thank you guys!, much appreciated.


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## butcher (Oct 30, 2019)

That is not a ceramic melting dish, that is a thick block of graphite made into a crucible (or melting cup not a dish shape). the graphite is thick and you will need to get the graphite crucible also glowing red hot.

Looks like you were just at the melting point of the gold but the crucible was still absorbing the needed heat and convecting it out into the atmosphere of air.
so close but no cigar.

I would say you will need another torch to heat up the crucible to glowing cherry red hot while the second torch swirls its flames on the gold.
Or 
Get yourself a ceramic melting dish (sit it on top of the k-wool insulation blanket), the ceramic melting dish will absorb and keep more heat than the graphite can or will...

in the melt of impure gold or base metals and salts of base metals with a torch, many of the base metals can form gases burn off in the acidic environment of melting these base metals salts or impure gold, also form acids as the gases hit the cooler air full of moisture, these gases will attack the torch, and corrode it making it dirty or even inoperable...
Melting pure gold, the torch will not corrode or get as dirty...


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2019)

Richard

I have to disagree. A Mapp gas torch will melt gold in a ceramic dish like the one he had in the previous picture with no lagging. Given, it takes a while but you can melt up to an ounce like that.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 30, 2019)

You need more heat. The gold have sintered together and is conducting the heat away. 

In your picture showing the overview of the melting dish you have it on a can filled with sand? And with a big metal piece sticking up. Everything will suck the heat away from the melting dish.

Use the ceramic wool to make a resting pad for the melting dish. Isolate it over the edge and also make a heat reflector out of the ceramic blanket.
This might give you some hints. I made a small cavern of fire brick and it was the difference between sintering my gold on the surface or melting it. And I used propane with air.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=19840

And the binding agent... at red heat it's all gone. Nothing to worry about,it's designed to evaporate before the gold start to sintering into a solid conductor.

Göran


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## butcher (Oct 30, 2019)

Yes, more heat or less of a heat loss through convection is needed.

A good Mapp gas torch has enough heat to melt gold, in the right conditions, but with the conditions sucking up the heat away from the gold, it will not be quite hot enough.


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## rickbb (Oct 30, 2019)

For not a lot of money you can get a small oxy/acetylene torch at the local big box home store and solve the problem. 

You are clearly getting the gold to melt and form little beads, but not getting it hot enough to carbonize whatever the binder is.

I vote for more heat, lots more.


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## snoman701 (Oct 30, 2019)

Ya'll need to learn to use the heat you have.

Jon has attested that a MAPP torch produces enough heat to melt the gold in an open dish...so if you can't get it to work, it's technique. Just change your technique. As Butcher suggested, a small amount of insulative material can isolate and reflect the heat of your flame so that it is used for the melt, not to heat the room.

Lazersteve had a nice little insulating fire brick furnace that was nothing more than a hollowed out fire brick that held the melt dish.


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## NeoRock (Oct 30, 2019)

butcher said:


> That is not a ceramic melting dish, that is a thick block of graphite made into a crucible (or melting cup not a dish shape). the graphite is thick and you will need to get the graphite crucible also glowing red hot.
> 
> Looks like you were just at the melting point of the gold but the crucible was still absorbing the needed heat and convecting it out into the atmosphere of air.
> so close but no cigar.
> ...



Thank you Butcher. The small white dish in the attached image is what I was melting it in, that is what you were referring to, correct? I see in the previous photos, it is a top view, in the dark, so I think it makes it look like a crucible. Sorry about that, should've taken better photos.

But I realize, my biggest mistake was forgetting what you guys were teaching me about heat loss, all along. In my rush, I had it sitting on the cover of the little furnace I made. I will try again with it sitting on top of the insulation, as you mentioned. In respect to the other base metals, the torch head got a bit dark, but not really dirty and definitely no corrosion. I am assuming that from your explanation...that is a tell, that it is fairly pure.

And Dupont finally sent me the MSDS, I am attaching the PDF to this post. I believe the relevant info is on the 2nd page..rest seems like safety guidelines and exposure warnings... 

Thank you again.


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## NeoRock (Oct 30, 2019)

g_axelsson said:


> You need more heat. The gold have sintered together and is conducting the heat away.
> 
> In your picture showing the overview of the melting dish you have it on a can filled with sand? And with a big metal piece sticking up. Everything will suck the heat away from the melting dish....



Thank you g_axelsson. I am reading through your other post about the Brick Cavern you made, very cool... I'll be ecstatic if I could get anywhere even remotely close to the gold button you got.

In respect to what you said about the binding agents burning off, others mentioned this as well and that they would burn off even prior to melting. Although, I am puzzled why the end result (image attached), is so hard, isn't close to pure gold supposed to be somewhat soft... I will assume this is due to my lack of knowledge and I am not realizing some aspect of it.

I will try your and Butcher's suggestion about using the insulation blanket to reflect the heat back to the dish. 

....Thank you again, much appreciate it.


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## NeoRock (Oct 30, 2019)

rickbb said:


> For not a lot of money you can get a small oxy/acetylene torch at the local big box home store and solve the problem.



Thanks rickbb.
Does this seem like what you were referring to:

https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Practical-Acetylene-Flexible-Repairing/dp/B07VQNLLXX/ref=asc_df_B07VQNLLXX/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385504784560&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4889599926612717231&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031159&hvtargid=pla-824124821680&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=73872202490&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385504784560&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4889599926612717231&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031159&hvtargid=pla-824124821680

Most others I seemed really expensive, such as on the home depot site. But I am assuming those are not the "mini" versions.


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## butcher (Oct 30, 2019)

You are correct that is a ceramic melting dish, it will work fine, get it hot and sprinkle lightly some borax (20 mule team borax soap will do in a pinch) to glaze the dish...

I did think you were still using the graphite crucible.

The only thing in the MSDS that I would be concerned about is the lead which makes gold to brittle for use in jewelry, there is nothing that I can see in the MSDS that would give you any problem melting this gold into a button.


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## NeoRock (Oct 30, 2019)

butcher said:


> You are correct that is a ceramic melting dish, it will work fine, get it hot and sprinkle lightly some borax (20
> 
> The only thing in the MSDS that I would be concerned about is the lead which makes gold to brittle for use in jewelry, there is nothing that I can see in the MSDS that would give you any problem melting this gold into a button.





Thanks Butcher. Will the lead make it "unsellable"? Should i look up how to separate it on this forum?

I will try with the dish, but I think you were spot on about the torch being the issue, in your earlier post... as I looked up the torch I have been using (bernzomatic WT2301) & many people online said they had problems with it.. I am going to home depot to buy the ernzomatic TS8000 which many said is a good torch. 
But again, now I am worried about what you said about the lead, don't wanna go thru all this & end up not being able to sell it at all.

Thank you again, much appreciated...


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## Williamjf77 (Oct 30, 2019)

I think the torch is your problem, you are using mapp gas on a propane torch.

I don’t know what the difference is but there is a difference as to how much fuel and air are delivered


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2019)

I'd just concentrate on getting the gold out in a blob then worry about the impurities later. One step at a time.

Jon


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2019)

Williamjf77 said:


> I think the torch is your problem, you are using mapp gas on a propane torch.
> 
> I don’t know what the difference is but there is a difference as to how much fuel and air are delivered



I'll be honest William I didn't notice that. Good catch.


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## NeoRock (Oct 30, 2019)

anachronism said:


> Williamjf77 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be honest William I didn't notice that. Good catch.
> ...


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## butcher (Oct 30, 2019)

Like watching a movie, we just all want to see a good ending.
They are good torch's.


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## Williamjf77 (Oct 30, 2019)

I believe the mapp torch head has a swirling action from what I have read while the other handle is just a handle with an igniter.
I know my mapp torch howels and makes a lot more noise then the plain propane torch. You can really tell the difference in the swirling style torches


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## NeoRock (Oct 31, 2019)

Hello guys,

Got the gas/ts8000 combo, wow this torch is orders of magnitude better... 
But following up on Butcher's "movie" analogy, this is turning into a horror flick for me....lol

This time temperature is definitely not an issue. I followed the dish glazing video as best as I could, but I think I messed up the dish, gold never melted, but did stick to the bottom. So I gave it a go on the crucible as well. Please keep in mind, each time I had the insulation "cuddling" around the dish & crucible. 







This 3rd image is of the dish a few seconds after I moved it from sitting on the insulation blanket getting torched, but you can see how hot each got.



Even the dish and crucible get red hot as you can see from the pics above but I never get to the the gold melting so I can pour it. It just stays glowing red hot no matter how long I aim the torch at it.

Here is the end result - its very hard and brittle...anyone know if I could just sell it like this to a pawn shop or something?










Also here is a 10 second portion of it in video:
https://youtu.be/9YMUFALxXoI

Any thoughts? Thank you everyone. Again much appreciated...I will now got pull my hair out lol.


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## butcher (Oct 31, 2019)

One thought is possibly the lead, which makes gold brittle, you could try to use a magnesium fire clay cupel or some bone ash powders, to oxide the lead so the cupel can suck up the lead oxides.


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## anachronism (Oct 31, 2019)

The pic of your white melting dish looks fine. I'd put some more in if you can get it like that, and it will likely come together. You sometimes have to move the dish to get it to go into one blob.


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## Williamjf77 (Oct 31, 2019)

I used the same setup to melt my first button last week and it took a while and depending on how close the torch was and how I had the kaowool, it would make the torch flare or sputter, it did melt almost 11 grams of gold though, I almost gave up because it felt like eternity but I could see the melted gold start and travel and pick up The Whole button. I would say it took at least 10 minutes maybe more


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## g_axelsson (Oct 31, 2019)

I just read the MSDS, 1-5% Ag and 1-10% Pb, that explains the hardness of your gold. It shouldn't make it harder to melt, though.

You are so close, the molten balls on that clump of gold is proof of that. The gold has actually melted but solidified when it made better thermal contact with the big blob, it sucked the heat away in an instance.

Good luck!

Göran


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## anachronism (Oct 31, 2019)

g_axelsson said:


> I just read the MSDS, 1-5% Ag and 1-10% Pb, that explains the hardness of your gold. It shouldn't make it harder to melt, though.
> 
> Göran



This exactly. If anything it would lower the melting point. As has been said- you're nearly there- keep going.


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## NeoRock (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you guys, I am as novice with this as anyone can be. After watching a few youtube videos, I came here and basically everything I've learned, is from you guys. 

What was discouraging is each attempt is trying to melt such a tiny speck. So if I cannot get that to melt, what luck do I have with the bulk of it. Unless, I am completely wrong about that aspect of it. Anyhow, I will try again, realized I could I could use both torches simultaneously....

One of the images Butcher posted had a small can furnace setup, with a torch on each side. Also saw it on some videos. Perhaps it will help a bit. 

Thanks again everyone. I will go at it again, fingers crossed.


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 31, 2019)

How long are you keeping the torch on what you're trying to melt? It can take anywhere from a few minutes to quite a few minutes to get gold to fully melt. You may be pulling the torch away too soon. Gold needs to reach an orange yellow color before it melts (see Furnace Temperature Colors).

Dave


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## g_axelsson (Oct 31, 2019)

Melting 1 gram is not so different from melting 50 grams. You still have to heat up the melting dish and the environment around it. After that it's just a question of being persistent to put enough heat into the metal.

How about the environment you try to melt in, are you outside or in a workshop? What is the air temperature? Windy or calm? Cold air blowing around the melting dish will cool it down fast, and it's that time of the year now.

Göran


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## butcher (Oct 31, 2019)

Like fishing "ya got to hold yer mouth right", or riding a bicycle "Once you learn how it is easy".

What fun is it when something that comes easy, when you have to sweat for it it will mean much more in the long run.


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## Andyanvil (May 30, 2020)

NeoRock said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > You could melt the plastic and glass if you wish along with the powder.
> ...



It looks like it may contain alumina. It said something about based on tests. It's hard to read for me but I can't imagine heat being the best method to remove alumina seeing as I melt my gold in a homemade alumina crucible. I even melted PD once in said crucible.


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