# my first attempt



## lotrogold (Aug 22, 2011)

Hello all im new on forum and noob on refining, i got some dozens of old pc, and wanna try to refining some gold. After some reads and videos on internet i have decided to process my scraps in this way.

I want start with 500g of FDD HDD AGP and PCI gold plated pins

1 - dissolve the base metals in NO3
2 - after pured the NO3 i'll dissolve the gold foils in AR (1 NO3 - 3 HCL)
3 - when all gold where dissolved i add the same amount of distilled water an then let precipitate the gold using copper metal
4 - after recovered the powder ill wash it in NO3 again to eliminate eventually metals
5 - when dryed its time to melt my precious.

Is this process good for my purpose? How many NO3 i need to dissolve base metal in 500g of scraps? And how many AR to dissolve the remaining foils? 
Is 37% HCL Good for AR or i must use 32% ???

thank all for help and sorri for my english.


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## nickvc (Aug 22, 2011)

Welcome to the forum.
I'm sorry but I think you need to do some studying on the forum before you do any refining.
Start with C.M.Hoke available as a free download of Palladiums signature line for one, also read the forum handbooks and the safety sections here on the forum. 
You have a lot to learn but it's all here for free just study and if you get stuck post questions or use the search function, top right of your screen, and help will be on hand.


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## vegaswinner (Aug 23, 2011)

As a fellow novice I would suggest starting with fingers in AP. Its a relatively simple process to follow and requires only a few cheap easy to obtain chemicals


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## lotrogold (Aug 26, 2011)

thank ppl, is the AP process good for motherboard pin too?? i only see post with flat fingers in AP


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## philddreamer (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Lotrogold!
Like Nickvc suggested, read & learn the right ways & wrong ways of recovering & refining precious metals. 
If you try to follow the procedure you just stated, I'm afriad your going to run into trouble. Take some time & read, especially the AP process, which in my opinion, is best suited for a starter. Be careful with the acids, if you handle them wrong, they will kill you!

Be safe & take care!

Phil


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## Geo (Aug 26, 2011)

AP will work for almost all gold plated pins with the exception of magnetic base metals such as steel and kovar. these will be stripped in a gold cell better.


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## lotrogold (Aug 26, 2011)

@Phil i know about acid and theyr strong fumes, i have worked as electrician so i know that its not a joke to operate with dangerous things. I think i'll start with AP and get practice in separate gold from metals as first step, without hurry.


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## lotrogold (Aug 27, 2011)

well, lets start.
my first attempt will be 50g of gold pleated pin in 500ml hcl30/32% and 100ml h2o2 3/4 %.

now the reaction is bubbling, i only have to w8 or i can accelerate using an aquarium air pump??


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## Geo (Aug 27, 2011)

an air pump will speed things up and so will a little heat. now understand i mean a little, about as much as you would get if you left it in the sun on a hot day. on a hotplate it would be low setting. it will still take about 7-10 days to completely dissolve the base metals.


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## lotrogold (Aug 27, 2011)

ok now its under direct sunlight, and the top i open, the color after 2 hours is pale green


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## philddreamer (Aug 27, 2011)

Be careful when trying to "accelerate" the process. 
If you add too much peroxide (oxidizer) & heat, be aware that you will dissolve gold. The gold will then cement as a black powder, because of the base metals higher in the Reactivity Series in the solution. So, at the end of the reaction, filter the solution & include the black powder together with the gold foils & then dissolve with some HCl/Cl.


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## lotrogold (Aug 27, 2011)

philddreamer said:


> Be careful when trying to "accelerate" the process.
> If you add too much peroxide (oxidizer) & heat, be aware that you will dissolve gold. The gold will then cement as a black powder, because of the base metals higher in the Reactivity Series in the solution. So, at the end of the reaction, filter the solution & include the black powder together with the gold foils & then dissolve with some HCl/Cl.



thanks for the advice, but at the end i have decided to not accelerate the solution and let it stay at externa temperature under sun light and wait. After 5 hours the solution its green the gold is clear as i put it in, the base metal looks darken, and in the solution i see like mist floating beetwen above pins is that normal?


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## philddreamer (Aug 27, 2011)

Good decision; be patiente. Like good wine, it needs its time... 8) 
Observe & enjoy the expirience. Write down the steps you have taken, so you can use as reference in future batches. 

The mist is vapors. When there is lots of humidity in the air, it will be a fog! :lol:


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## lotrogold (Aug 27, 2011)

philddreamer said:


> Good decision; be patiente. Like good wine, it needs its time... 8)
> Observe & enjoy the expirience. Write down the steps you have taken, so you can use as reference in future batches.
> 
> The mist is vapors. When there is lots of humidity in the air, it will be a fog! :lol:




sure i got some photos tomorrow il post all including the 20th hour photo


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## lotrogold (Aug 28, 2011)

the raction look stopped, and i see something gelatinous over pins


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## philddreamer (Aug 28, 2011)

How much solder was in the material you're processing?
That gel could be tin. Did all the base metals dissolve? If not, add a bit of HCl.


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## lotrogold (Aug 28, 2011)

there's not many solder, i have used 10ml hcl for 1 gram of pin, the base metal just looks darken like burned but nothing dissolved


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## ms32462 (Aug 28, 2011)

lotrogold said:


> Hello all im new on forum and noob on refining, i got some dozens of old pc, and wanna try to refining some gold. After some reads and videos on internet i have decided to process my scraps in this way.
> 
> I want start with 500g of FDD HDD AGP and PCI gold plated pins
> 
> ...


i wouls use 32.5 thats what i use


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## lotrogold (Aug 28, 2011)

i have added 100ml more hcl, but the reaction still looks weak, its not like boiling as i seen on youtubes experiment, it only have some bubbles form bottom to top


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## philddreamer (Aug 28, 2011)

If you added HCl & want more reaction, then add some peroxide or "bubble" the solution. This will intensive the reaction.


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## lotrogold (Aug 28, 2011)

now the solution is 2:1 hcl - h2o2 like steve's videos, i'll see tomorrow in the morning if anything happes, thanks for support


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## lotrogold (Aug 31, 2011)

i'm back, after 4 days the solution ha sa nice green color, all the silver color metals are now copper colored, now i only have to wait untill only gold will remain , or i have to add peroxide each day to make the reaction active?


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## Geo (Aug 31, 2011)

if you have a air pump with a bubbler in the solution theres no need to add any more peroxide. if its bubbling just let it sit for a few days. if you can agitate or shake the material without causing a spill it will speed up the process a little.use a sturdy piece of plastic to stir it around.


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## philddreamer (Aug 31, 2011)

I used a similar set up to that of Lazersteve last week for 5# of ceramic cpu's for the first time. It worked great, since I could shake the cpu's without fear of braking my coffee pot, plus it adds more air as you agitate & dip with frequency, together with the air pump. 
By the way, that was rejuvenated left over AP, with an air bubbler, from 3 other small batches.


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## rewalston (Aug 31, 2011)

Phil what is that that's in the bottom of the bucket that the CPU's are setting on?

Rusty


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## Geo (Aug 31, 2011)

looks like a milk jug with the top cut out except the handle. i believe he's using that to put the material in to soak in the reaction bucket. theres probably holes in the bottom of the milk jug.


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## rewalston (Aug 31, 2011)

Geo said:


> looks like a milk jug with the top cut out except the handle. i believe he's using that to put the material in to soak in the reaction bucket. theres probably holes in the bottom of the milk jug.



Oh duh, I was talking about what was in the yellow bucket. At first glance I thought it looked like granules, but then I just looked at it again and smacked my forehead, what I thought were granules are BUBBLES...he's pulled the milk jug out of the AP solution it's the solution that's has fine bubbles....sheesh I need to have a coffee or two before I look at pictures and post. :lol: 

Rusty


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## philddreamer (Aug 31, 2011)

Thay's correct Geo! 

Rusty, I found myself that evening without a coffee pot big enough & strong enough, I remembered Lazersteve's set up. So I proceeded to cut open an empty 1 gallon plastic water container; with a heated 5/16" bolt punctured a number of holes &... perfect!
I also have an aquarium air pump & an air bubble stone running to rejuvenate the AP.
I believe it was in Steve's AP video...

Phil


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## lotrogold (Aug 31, 2011)

i usually stir a coupe times a day the solution but tomorrow i'll use the air pump (with stone?????) to make the reaction run, as you can see in photo at day4 there are no bubble in the solution.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 31, 2011)

lotrogold said:


> i usually stir a coupe times a day the solution but tomorrow i'll use the air pump (with stone?????) to make the reaction run, as you can see in photo at day4 there are no bubble in the solution.




Try simply to close hose at the end where you want to put stone. Then use thin needle (can be heated) to pierce say about 5-6 cm of hose. Make a lot of small holes. Stones tend to break up in few days of use so this way you can avoid having to filter broken stone out.


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## rewalston (Aug 31, 2011)

philddreamer said:


> Thay's correct Geo!
> 
> Rusty, I found myself that evening without a coffee pot big enough & strong enough, I remembered Lazersteve's set up. So I proceeded to cut open an empty 1 gallon plastic water container; with a heated 5/16" bolt punctured a number of holes &... perfect!
> I also have an aquarium air pump & an air bubble stone running to rejuvenate the AP.
> ...


Yes Phil, I remember seeing the video on Steve's site. I also have the silver and gold video of Steve's. I didn't get the platinum video because PT is a little out of my league right now. Maybe later.

Rusty


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## Palladium (Aug 31, 2011)

I take one 5 gallon bucket and drill holes in the bottom for a strainer effect. Take that bucket and place it in another so you can just pick the first bucket up by the handle and twist it from side to side to agitate the materials and to give you a easy view of the materials. Then let it back down into the solution to do its work. I let the hose rest between the two buckets to hold it in place. You will need a small spacer or shim to stop the buckets from pinching the hose between them. The hose runs under the bucket so the air is forced up through the holes you drilled in the bottom of the bucket (strainer). The bubbles then percolate through the material. By doing this you are adding two things to the air bubbles, retention time and surface area for the bubbles to be better absorbed into the solution which translates into less time and more efficiency.


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## rewalston (Aug 31, 2011)

Good idea palladium. I can see right now I'm going to have a weee bit of a problem having to work out side. I'm going to have to purchase a weather resistant power bar some where (or make one)...I only have one plug-in and it's one of those that screw into a light socket with only one extension cord...sigh. The ideas and stumbling stones just never cease do they? It shouldn't be too difficult to make a weather resistant breakout box...get a plastic outlet box, mount 2 outdoor plugs and seal with silicone...should work.

Rusty


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## Geo (Aug 31, 2011)

lotrogold said:


> i usually stir a coupe times a day the solution but tomorrow i'll use the air pump (with stone?????) to make the reaction run, as you can see in photo at day4 there are no bubble in the solution.



is that a layer of white precipitate over the pins? did you add water to your solution? there doesnt seem to be enough material to have that much tin in the solution.


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## Palladium (Aug 31, 2011)

I've done several things. One is to sit the bucket on a heating pad like for ear aches. I have also taken an electric blanket and wrapped it around a 15 gallon drum. But that's just me. lol Just remember Liquid and electricity don't play well together. Use proper safety precautions.
I actually love cold weather and have found my ap works better then. The key I have found is air. The more the better.


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## butcher (Sep 1, 2011)

You should be using a GFCI oulet as Palladium said "Just remember Liquid and electricity don't play well together. Use proper safety precautions."

acids and metals dissolved in acids and the electricity are even more dangerous, even indoors in a lab I think they should be used for refining.


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## rewalston (Sep 1, 2011)

Thank you Butcher I was thinking along that line just couldn't remember what the outlets were called.

Rusty


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## lazersteve (Sep 1, 2011)

The white layer is typically copper I chloride or a compound of lead from solder if present.


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## lotrogold (Sep 1, 2011)

Geo said:


> lotrogold said:
> 
> 
> > i usually stir a coupe times a day the solution but tomorrow i'll use the air pump (with stone?????) to make the reaction run, as you can see in photo at day4 there are no bubble in the solution.
> ...



no there are only h2o2 and hcl in the solution, the white is a kind of gelatinous thing...

EDIT. i just seen steve's post, thanks


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## Geo (Sep 1, 2011)

i believe that is stannic acid. could be a real problem for you. do a search in the search box for stannic acid.


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## floppy (Sep 1, 2011)

Thats odd Palladium that colder weather works better for your solution of AP, because it seems like the warmer weather actually sped op the reation time of my AP solutions. Any thoughts on why we would have contradicting opinions on that? Just wondering. 

BTW how can I respond to just one sentence of a post using the quotes like everyone else does? I have tried to do that many different ways but never able to make it work. Any help would be very appreciated and helpful.

Thanks Kenny


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## jimdoc (Sep 1, 2011)

floppy said:


> BTW how can I respond to just one sentence of a post using the quotes like everyone else does? I have tried to do that many different ways but never able to make it work. Any help would be very appreciated and helpful.
> Thanks Kenny



Just hit the quote button and use backspace button to edit out the unwanted text.
If you want to know how to answer multiple questions within a post separately, that is one I can't answer.

Jim


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## lotrogold (Sep 1, 2011)

Geo said:


> i believe that is stannic acid. could be a real problem for you. do a search in the search box for stannic acid.



i have installed the air pump today, and after some hours all the white was sticked to the hose


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## philddreamer (Sep 1, 2011)

Lotro, I would add a bit HCl. Your solution looks too clear. 2:1 ratio is a lot of water, I think you need more HCl, I could be wrong...


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## lotrogold (Sep 1, 2011)

i have used the same Steve ratio. May be my pins have more basemetals so more hcl may help?


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## lotrogold (Sep 2, 2011)

after a day with the airbubble all the white thing seems disappeared.


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## Palladium (Sep 2, 2011)

floppy said:


> Thats odd Palladium that colder weather works better for your solution of AP, because it seems like the warmer weather actually sped op the reation time of my AP solutions. Any thoughts on why we would have contradicting opinions on that? Just wondering.
> 
> 
> Thanks Kenny



The acid peroxide method can be manipulated in several ways. One is warmer temperature. But with warmer temperature the solutions will hold less gas per volume of solution. The warmer the solution the less oxygen it will hold. We need oxygen to convert copper to copper oxide so the hcl can absorb it into solution. Hcl alone will not dissolve copper. So attack rate is tie to the amount of oxygen that we can get into a solution. Another important parameter is surface reaction kinetics. I use a 15 gallon poly drum with a removable lid. I use a Lottttt of air. This air is forced thru a 5 micron water filter sock mounted in the bottom of the drum. Above that i have a shelve built for what i call the man hole cover with holes drilled for a strainer effect where the materials rest upon. Think about the way we use 2- 5 gallon buckets for the ap process. I can only fill the drum about 1/3 full of solution because when i hit the air it's like a foam over effect. Imagine the surface reaction rates at this point. This leads to everything i need for controlling etch rate. With added heat you speed up reaction time true, but you also give up other parameters. Heat will also dissipate or break down your hcl which leads to vapours or off gassing meaning their goes part of your hcl that could have served a better purpose. More bang for your buck. Colder solutions hold their gases more stable. I'm manipulating parameters so to speak. This thing will eat some copper !!! Note: I didn’t build it for gold. It was meant for copper recovery with gold being secondary. This thing blows gold so fine it takes days to settle. But i did test my process for dissolved gold and i can say to date i haven't found enough evidence to support that i'm losing gold from it dissolving into solution. I do recover gold that looks like it was dissolved into solution and could have dropped from excess copper and air saturation. But it's always in the powder after settling or filtering, not in the solution.

This is a work in progress. :mrgreen:


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## floppy (Sep 2, 2011)

Thank you for the detailed explanation. That is way more information than I knew about. I use my AP for gold(fingers) and I have processed close to 12 lbs of them in the same solution that I started with. 2qts. hcl and 1qt. peroxide, I have a bubbler in the solution at all times and have never had to add any hcl. However I have noticed that after about 6lbs. it started taking alot longer for the fingers to be stripped clean. When the solution was new it took just about 2 days, now many lbs. later it takes anywhere from 6 to 7 days. But I'm in no hurry, as long as it works its okay with me. But I do appreciate the new knowledge you have provided me with.


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## Palladium (Sep 2, 2011)

Besides air the other parameter that controls etch rate is the amount of free hcl in the solution. Now that your solution is saturated add about another quart to what you have and watch it go !!


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## lazersteve (Sep 2, 2011)

Search the forum for my posts containing the keywords:

acid peroxide help

and

acid peroxide info

Steve


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## Harold_V (Sep 3, 2011)

jimdoc said:


> floppy said:
> 
> 
> > BTW how can I respond to just one sentence of a post using the quotes like everyone else does? I have tried to do that many different ways but never able to make it work. Any help would be very appreciated and helpful.
> ...


That's simple. I'm going to use the code feature, which will allow what must be done to display without causing the function to exercise the command. When you post, you do NOT use the code function. 

So then, here's all you must do. I'll use floppy's post as the examples. 


```
[quote="floppy"]BTW how can I respond to just one sentence of a post using the quotes like everyone else does?[/quote]
```

for the next quote, repeat:

```
[quote]I have tried to do that many different ways but never able to make it work. Any help would be very appreciated and helpful.[/quote]
```

Note that on succeeding quotes, you don't have to repeat the original reference----you can simply type


> instead of adding the name. Pay strict attention to every detail ---including quotation marks ----leaving out any fine detail causes the function to fail.
> 
> Again, the use of the Code function allows me to show you what to type. It is NOT a part of the instructions you should follow. Do NOT use the Code button for anything you hope to display as a quote.
> 
> Harold


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## floppy (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks for all the information I requested about the quotes. That will be quite the useful ability.


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## lotrogold (Sep 7, 2011)

up up,
after some days with air bubble the solution look really dark and i can see a lor of golden foils floating in the solution, now, if i'm not wrong the darken colors means that the solution is over/satured, but i have some other pins undissolved, what to do now? just wait o add some hcl?


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## Geo (Sep 7, 2011)

when the solution turns brown and has the consistency of worcestershire sauce THEN it will be saturated. right now is when its doing a good job of dissolving copper. if you can keep the solution at that dark green level then you can re-use it over and over. after you run this batch and filter the solids out, put the solution back in the container and add the air bubbler for a day with nothing in it. then remove the air and let it sit another day. it should turn a dark green color from brown. dip or siphon off the green liquid to re-use and filter the settled metal out of the bottom, this should be copper. wash this powder with baking soda and water to neutralize the acid and rinse and dry for clean copper dust.


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## lotrogold (Sep 7, 2011)

Geo said:


> when the solution turns brown and has the consistency of worcestershire sauce THEN it will be saturated. right now is when its doing a good job of dissolving copper. if you can keep the solution at that dark green level then you can re-use it over and over. after you run this batch and filter the solids out, put the solution back in the container and add the air bubbler for a day with nothing in it. then remove the air and let it sit another day. it should turn a dark green color from brown. dip or siphon off the green liquid to re-use and filter the settled metal out of the bottom, this should be copper. wash this powder with baking soda and water to neutralize the acid and rinse and dry for clean copper dust.



i can reuse it, wow really a good news thanks.


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## lotrogold (Sep 11, 2011)

ok the dissolving is finished, i have filtered and got some gold foils and a gray powder, is the powder cemented gold or what?


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## lotrogold (Sep 11, 2011)

something gone wrong, finished the 50g test, i have started with all the pins a i have, there are 280g of pins in 2lt oh hcl and 300/350 ml h2o2 but the solution does not turn green but yellow, really yellow

EDIT. after some minutes it turn yellow/green, i have lost some gold in the solution??


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## Geo (Sep 11, 2011)

no you have not lost it. when you put an excess amount of h2o2 in your solution it dissolved some gold, but it is not lost when the solution becomes saturated with copper it will drop the gold out as a black powder into the bottom of your container. remember to add all the powder when you finish the reaction to your foils before you refine them.


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## Gold (Sep 11, 2011)

What % was the H2O2 ?
Are you using an air bubbler to supply air ?


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## lotrogold (Sep 11, 2011)

Gold said:


> What % was the H2O2 ?
> Are you using an air bubbler to supply air ?



its a 3% h2o2 and yes i use an air bubble.

Ps. the gray powder recovered with gold foils is gold?


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## Geo (Sep 11, 2011)

i would assume its gold. include it with your foils.


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## lotrogold (Sep 13, 2011)

after 2 days the new solution looks clear, really clear and after stir it become ashes, whay a yellow/green solution turn back to clear??


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## Geo (Sep 13, 2011)

did you put some of the green solution from your last batch in with this batch? if you will, it will dissolve the copper from the pins and fingers faster.


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## Palladium (Sep 13, 2011)

Sounds like you got some tin in there. Was their solder on anything?


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## lotrogold (Sep 13, 2011)

Geo said:


> did you put some of the green solution from your last batch in with this batch? if you will, it will dissolve the copper from the pins and fingers faster.



no my last solution is still dark, i have to turn it back to green as you say some posts ago.

for palladium, yes there are some motherboard pin with a few tin where they were solded to motherboard


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## Geo (Sep 13, 2011)

put some of the old solution in with the old solution. it will turn green when you add it. it is still copper chloride even if it is saturated with copper, it is better than adding peroxide.


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## vegaswinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Hows it going lotrogold? Its been a while and i'm interested to hear how your progressing on this. Did you dissolve your powders and foils in HCL-CL yet?


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## cashmoney (Oct 4, 2011)

ok seems to be the place. Hello all and yes im new to all of this. I wish i took chemistry when i was in high school lol. Well Im buying some fingers and I just want to seperate the gold from the other stuff. I had a slight chat with Lsteve and he said the process i was about to buy was a (ferric chloride). Now heres the big question. Which one is most effective and the safest process? acid peroxide or ferric chloride? Thanks ill be waiting.


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## Geo (Oct 5, 2011)

ferric chloride (iron(II)chloride) is used as an etchant in the creation of circuit boards and will do the job, but not many people on the forum that i know uses it to process fingers, as far as i know. copper chloride will do just as well and is much more familiar to members here. if you get in trouble with a process and need to ask a question you may get more responses from people that are familiar with the process involved. AP is very simple to set up and monitor and in the end the result should be the same. is one better than the other? in my opinion the two are very similar with about the same etch rate and besides im not sure you can re-use ferric chloride but i know for a fact you can re-use copper chloride.


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## cashmoney (Oct 5, 2011)

well thanks Geo Im gonna be smart and get lsteves dvd on fingers. I feel its the best bet. Now heres somthing weird. Have you ever ruined gold to the point were it wont pass a magnet test? I read this out of finishing.com. I dont know its true or not but the old gal couldnt sell her gold do to that factor. Honestly I never knew gold had a magnetic point. This is the mistake i want to avoid the most.


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## Geo (Oct 6, 2011)

in the natural world gold is non-magnetic. you cant ruin gold, you can change its composition by adding or subtracting other material but gold will always be gold. the normal person would not have the means to change the atomic structure of gold to the point of it not being gold. this person most likely had gold plated steel and assumed it was pure gold.


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## gold4mike (Jan 4, 2013)

Palladium said:


> Note: I didn’t build it for gold. It was meant for copper recovery with gold being secondary.



Palladium - What process are you using to recover the copper from solution? 

I would like to recover many pounds of copper from AP for resale and have seen some threads on recovering it electrolitically using graphite anode/cathode.

Is that your process?


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