# how is it possible?



## kjavanb123 (Mar 29, 2012)

To analyze 500 kg mixed catalytic converters and have some results of PGMs then 1700 kg of the same material to result even lower than that of 500 kg?!!?????


----------



## samuel-a (Mar 29, 2012)

Either the assay or the sampling....

You gave no details... so i'll just gamble here and say the sampling is faulty.


----------



## kjavanb123 (Mar 29, 2012)

well the assay for mixed 500 catalytic converters contained 55g of Pt, 522g of Pd, and 84g of Rh. we sent them 1700kg of the similar mixed catalytic converters and the refinery stated it contains 0 g Pt, 474 g Pd, and 74g of Rh?????????????????????? 

I guess I have to ask for a third party sampling or what should i do now??

Thanks
Kev


----------



## kjavanb123 (Mar 29, 2012)

The refiner still saying no matter if the quantity of cargo has tripled the content of PGMs still calculated as 1 ton??? Any refiners in the US would be interested in this cargo so we can ship from Canada.

regards
Kevin


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 29, 2012)

Be there watching them when they prepare it for sampling, up to the point where samples are taken.

How did you sample the first 500? How was it assayed?


----------



## rusty (Mar 29, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> Be there watching them when they prepare it for sampling, up to the point where samples are taken.
> 
> How did you sample the first 500? How was it assayed?



GSP since I'm nearing the required amount to ship and that PMR is in Canada thought I would deliver my own, anyhow to the point I called Peirre from PMR asking if I could be present he said no, then I asked if I could have an umpire represent my shiment again was told no.

The reason for this was because they could not give a definate date of refining the material, shipments were processed on a first come basis, he made it sound like they had a huge backlog of work.

Peirre was more than willing to send out a freight truck to pick up my shipement when it was ready, but I was not welcome to accompany the lot. After speaking with Peirre I had lost all confidence in dealing with this firm.

If by chance I do decide to ship, the cats will have been milled into powder then thourghly homoginzed with radom samples taken out for an independent assay with one sample going to PMR before I agree to ship.

I beleive the correct proceedure to take samples from ore is to remove a small lot, not sure what this lot should weigh. Then the ore sample is rolled back and forth N and S then E and W in a canvas or tarp then drawn into quarters with samples taken from each quarter for the assay.


----------



## Westerngs (Mar 29, 2012)

Rusty,

I would not ship anything to a refiner that will not let you rep your own material or have a third party rep.

Also, I do not know of any refiner that will commit to pay on a sample of a material that was not sampled by them. Further, unless your material is milled very fine, I would say -100 mesh, it will be difficult to get a representative sample.

Having said this, I have never dealt with catalysts. My experience is more with ores, slags and sludges in truckload quantities.


----------



## kjavanb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

Thanks all for your feedbacks on this, I guess my dealing with the PMR can be a lesson for others who might be interested to do work with them. On that note, anyone knows of a good refinery in the US whom I can re-export the cargo from PMR to them and hopefully have someone represented during the sampling?

Best regards,
Kevin


----------



## publius (Mar 30, 2012)

Methods for sampling and having an accurate assay of your material should be done using a standard practice such as:
ASTM C702 / C702M - 11 Standard Practice for Reducing Samples of Aggregate to Testing Size -and- ASTM D75 / D75M - 09 Standard Practice for Sampling Aggregates

Sampling using these standards will stand you in good stead IF you ever have to take an entity like PMR to court.


----------



## kjavanb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

Thanks for your input on assaying methods, how can one know about which one they use? Also just curios my lot was consisted of 1625 kg of mixed low grade cats with 0 ppm Pt, 728ppm Pd, and 150ppm Rh. combined with 95 kg of a low grade cat with 0 ppm Pt, 386ppm Pd, 101ppm Rh, and 40 kg of high grade cat with 0 ppm Pt, 2029ppm Pd, and 96ppm Rh. Now the refiner claims the lot has only 474ppm Pd and 74ppm Rh. It just doesn't make any sense.

Regards,
Kevin


----------



## kjavanb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

Anyone with some input on the final lot assay using the following individual catalytic assay results?
View attachment Sample Analysis Result For Individual catayltic.xls


Now curios, those values are in PPM, knowing the total weight of lot, and using the data in the tables can one knows the estimate PGM on the mixed lot?

Thanks and regards,
Kevin


----------



## Oz (Mar 30, 2012)

I have not read the assays but a simple thing worth knowing about PPM is that 1 PPM = 1 gram per metric ton.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 30, 2012)

kjavanb123,

What did you pay for the assays? How were the assays done?


----------



## rusty (Mar 30, 2012)

kjavanb123 said:


> Thanks all for your feedbacks on this, I guess my dealing with the PMR can be a lesson for others who might be interested to do work with them. On that note, anyone knows of a good refinery in the US whom I can re-export the cargo from PMR to them and hopefully have someone represented during the sampling?
> 
> Best regards,
> Kevin



Kevin I stubled accros this bit of information, you maybe in luck with a processor located in the USA.

In 2003, DOWA Group established a new company in the United States, Nippon PGM America, Inc., which recycles platinum group metals, such as platinum, palladium and rhodium, from the catalytic converters used to purify automobile exhaust fumes.

Nippon PGM America, Inc., maintains a dominant share of the catalyst recycling business, not only in the domestic (Japanese) market, but also in the world market.


----------



## kjavanb123 (Mar 31, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> kjavanb123,
> 
> What did you pay for the assays? How were the assays done?



The assays were result of sending samples as individual and as mixed of different types to refinery in Japan part of giant refining firm DOWA Japan. Could their methods of sampling was different from PMR in Canada?

Kevin


----------



## kjavanb123 (Mar 31, 2012)

rusty said:


> kjavanb123 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks all for your feedbacks on this, I guess my dealing with the PMR can be a lesson for others who might be interested to do work with them. On that note, anyone knows of a good refinery in the US whom I can re-export the cargo from PMR to them and hopefully have someone represented during the sampling?
> ...



Hi Gill,

Thanks for this, I will try to contact them after the weekend, so hopefully I can ship the lot from Canada to them. what a headache this lot has been.

Regards,
Kevin


----------



## autocatalyst (May 30, 2013)

kjavanb123 said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> > kjavanb123 said:
> ...




How did you make out with them? I contacted them and they told me that they want a minimum of 5000lbs of material as a trial lot. That's approx. 160-180k worth of autocatalyst.


----------



## autocatalyst (May 30, 2013)

kjavanb123 said:


> To analyze 500 kg mixed catalytic converters and have some results of PGMs then 1700 kg of the same material to result even lower than that of 500 kg?!!?????



I have realized similar results time and time again. I have been told it is the "mix" of converters, and that keeping similar ppm converters together will yield more accurate results when sampling and assaying the autocatalyst. I have sent out very similar material on multiple occasions and have seen that when mixing lower grade material such as aftermarkets into the mix, it brings down the value of the whole load. Let me know if you can figure it out because I sure as hell can't. (908) 421-1493. Ken Christensen


----------



## patnor1011 (Jun 2, 2013)

*similar* - this is your answer.


----------

