# hcl cleaning



## EVO-AU (Jan 5, 2009)

Okay, gents and ladies:

What is the process for cleaning leached ore and raw ore with HCL for a better ppt route ? And which would be better - before leaching or before ppt or after ppt ? I've got some strange ore and it is creating disaster in my poor-befuddled brain ! Even my dog gives me strange looks when I emerge from the lab !~

EVO


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## butcher (Jan 5, 2009)

Ore can be made from acids like in a volcano, and can be salts of these acids (I lack a better discription), these rocks should be roasted to drive out these acids, like sulfuric or arsenic or chlorides, without roasting you can have all kinds of problems with leach and recovery chemistry's.
As far as cleaning leached or raw ore I am not sure what it is you are asking, if you mean to refine, and some of this would be easier to answer if we know what chemical or mechanical process you have used so far, and what state your ore is in.


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## Harold_V (Jan 5, 2009)

The idea of refining ores with acid isn't generally acceptable. The reason is simple. So much acid is required to eliminate unwanted substances that it renders the operation undesirable, if for no other reason, expense. 

Do not confuse the extraction of values from metallic scrap with extracting values from ores. The combinations of elements in ores dictate that one process rarely is applicable to another. There are compounds in ores that demand considerable research and experimentation in order to determine an effective extraction procedure. It may be beyond the ability of the home refiner, but most importantly, it is likely not economically viable unless the assay indicates very high concentrations of values. 

While high grade ores are known to exist, the average ore being processed for gold is usually well under one ounce per ton. The sheer volume of material that must be handled to make a profit pretty well eliminates a small scale operation, particularly one pursued at the hobby level. 

Cyanide is used with success for one reason that stands out. The material with which it is used does not interact with, or destroy the cyanide, or destroys very little. It is for that reason that extremely low grade ores can be leached---the only expense being piling the ore on a heap for leaching. 

My advice to anyone that has intentions of processing ores is to lose the idea unless the assay is extremely high. That's particularly true if you are unable to process anything but miniscule volumes at any one time. You'd be far better off to get a minimum wage job and buy gold with the proceeds.

Harold


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## EVO-AU (Jan 8, 2009)

Butcher: Okay, may just be I am not sure of what it is I read. Somewhere on this forum somebody said to boil the leached ore in a mix of 3:1 HCL to H2O for several minutes. Watch for the curdy of Ag and test for Pb or Hg. That is all I have and I cannot remember where I read about this process. Any ideas ? Please 

I sent Twigg a button about a year ago and a jeweler friend of his said it was about 90 % pure. So I know that this ore is rich. Or like I told Randy, I've probably got a bunch of pockets rich and nil. By the way, that button, about 3 or so grams came from a total ( before processing ) of about six #'s or ore.

I always get at least a tiny bit from every batch. But if this HCL washing, boiling or whatever can improve my results - so be it !!!

Anybody else have anything to offer ? Phill


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## butcher (Jan 9, 2009)

HCl would help to precipitate the silver as chlorides the white curdy you speak of, also lead or mercury are insoluble as chloride's, the water is needed to dilute, as in strong acid they can be soluble.
but this still would depend on what leach you are using.
lead lead insoluble as sulfide so sometime a few drops of sulfuric can help there,
but much of this can also depend on what the leach was and were you are in the process, are you trying to refine concentrated gold? give us some information of what you are doing and where you are with this and we can give better advise, sometimes it may be better to incinerated and then reprocess, but without knowing what you are doing the advice we may give is not going to help much.

are you asking about harold washing prceedures? for washing the Gold powder after Aqua regia?for high purity?


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## EVO-AU (Jan 9, 2009)

Butcher: Incinerate what ? I do heat my ore to create magnetism so I can pull any iron out. If there is any. I've tested about every fourth batch chemically for iron. But if I get a gram per five gal bucket, that is a lot. 

Maybe it was one of Harolds' posts about using hcl for washing. But I am not doing electronic scrap, just native ore from the ground. 

I just came across one of my diddly-squat notes, wdhich reads:

After precip, wash the ore in 3:1 - hcl/h2o to disolve any remaining metals not pm's. Now does this make any sense to you guys ? Phill


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## Platdigger (Jan 9, 2009)

Sure Phill, that is just to try to disolve away any base metals that came down with the gold.
This is just a "wash" if you will of the precips.
Randy


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## butcher (Jan 9, 2009)

when I say incenerate was talking about driveing out acids, which if mixed with another acid can create problems.


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## EVO-AU (Jan 12, 2009)

Platdigger: Randy, ole' buddy - you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I had read somewhere, but couldn't remember the syntax. That is what I am after. Now then, is the ratio of 3:1 h20 to hcl correct ? Also, does it make any difference whether it is regent HCL or store bought muriatic. I have both and am aware of the possibel iron content in muriatic. 

Also, to Butcher as well, if I take store bought ammonia and simmer it down would I get a decent solution of ammoniam hydroxide ?

ONe more thing, if you gentlemen do not mind - what is the ratio of stannous chloride crystals to HCL to h2o. I picked up a test kit from Action few years back, ran out of both solution mixes and ordered some stannous chloride crystals, but then lost the mix ratio.

Oh yeah, Butcher, I thought incinerate had to do with removing PM's from boards and such. Another notch in my network of brain cells.

Ain't I dumb ? Thanks, Phill


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## Harold_V (Jan 13, 2009)

EVO-AU said:


> Also, to Butcher as well, if I take store bought ammonia and simmer it down would I get a decent solution of ammoniam hydroxide ?


If you "simmer it down" you'll end up with water, and nothing else. 



> - what is the ratio of stannous chloride crystals to HCL to h2o.


Hoke is your friend. 

Harold


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## EVO-AU (Jan 13, 2009)

Harold: What if I use a retort ?

Anybody else got any ideas ? 

Phill


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## Platdigger (Jan 13, 2009)

Phill, why do you feel you need more concentrated ammonia?
Randy


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## Harold_V (Jan 13, 2009)

Ammonium hydroxide, as far as I know, is nothing more than ammonia that is dissolved in water----so when it's heated, you drive off the ammonia. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong. 

Assuming I'm right, I expect that water will dissolve only a given amount, at which time the solution is saturated. Distilling it off may work, but you'll have to rely on information from those that know and understand chemistry----I do not. 

Harold


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## butcher (Jan 14, 2009)

from my limited knowledge of this, ammonia hydroxide can be purchased as 28%, and can be made industrially to about 35% catalyticaly N2 & H2 at high temperatures and pressures, if you had 28% and heated it to 
100 degF. you would end up with 23%, now take this 23% and heat to 150 deg F, you will have 10% in solution, now heat that to 212 deg F you have water left. If I understand this Harold is right on the money here.


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## EVO-AU (Jan 14, 2009)

Okay Butcher, I get the message. I bow to those with more superior knowledge. Holy cow !

And to you, as well, Harold .

Randy, I have an experiment from Ammen in regards to iron, but unless it is right in front of me, I can't rmember it. I'll look it up tonight and see what gives. That is why the ammoniam hydroxide. Phill

Anybody ever hear of substituting bismuth for mercury in pulling Au out of the gangue and such ? Can't remember where I saw that little gem.
But if it works, well !!!!!!!!!!!


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## EVO-AU (Jan 14, 2009)

Randy - Butcher :

I was just browsing thru Ignatz61 's posts and wonder ----

could I just take the 30 mesh ore and simmer it in the 3:1 solution of H2O and HCL to disolve out the base metals to make a cleaner ore for leaching ? Is this feasible ? 

P.S. You ever delve into Alchemy . Interesting !!!

I just came across the Chicks process of removing plated Au from china, etc. Yes, I bought her little prospecting book about store and sales, etc. Most informative. That was about ten years back. Anyway, the process call for simmering the broken china and stuff in a nitric acid solution. Wonder, would that maybe work on board fingers and stuff from old telephones ? Bunch of this stuff sittin' 'round. Phill


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## Platdigger (Jan 14, 2009)

Hi Phill, the problem with using hcl/peroxide to remove the base metals from an ore, is the fact that this will disolve gold also.
Especially fine particals. 

If you leave it long enough, the available base metals will start to drive the gold out of solution.

But, knowing at what stage you are at in the proccess would take a lot of experimenting.

As for using nitric on gold plated fingers and such.......of course.
Randy


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## butcher (Jan 15, 2009)

Randy, I believe he was asking about using dilute HCL to remove base metals first, this is were inceneration can be important, as Randy stated they can make your gold disolve also, and the Ore is a rock usually formed from acids like in a volcano which could be sulfuric, arsenic carbolic Etcetera, inceneration to drive away these acids from rock is very important to the chemistry later, once incenerated (Roasted) yes base metals can be leached with Hcl, and then if you use Hcl in process to recover the gold(with Oxidizer), you will not need to incenerate them between these two steps.
although unless you have some awlfully rich ore this seems can get very expensive doing tons of this would generate alot of chemical waste and money out of your pocket, for small concentrated amount may be ok.


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## EVO-AU (Jan 15, 2009)

Randy: I missed the boat somewhere. Where did peroxide come from ? I was referring to hcl and water. Phill

And how in the world would Au disolve with hcl ?
How did that ore work out ? Idle curiosity.

Randy: I thought you had the t-6 manual. I'll copy the revelant pages and get them to you...It's different.

Randy/Butcher: Did you guys see Turbos' bit on Iodine reclamation ? Wow !


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## Platdigger (Jan 15, 2009)

Sorry Phill, didn't pay close attention there.

But, if there are any oxygenating minerals in the ore, you will still have gold being disolved into hcl.

I believe manganese oxide (or is it dioxide?) would be one of them.
Randy


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## EVO-AU (Jan 15, 2009)

Randy: Just getting ready to sign off and thought I'd try the forum one more time. I'll play with your suggestion, altho' it's 3 above right now. Phill


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## EVO-AU (Jan 21, 2009)

Randy / Butcher:

Irons in a post back in 2007 said that he would take the gold precipitates and wash them in Hcl and then in ammonium hydroxide. Two or three times more so that the amm hyd would wash out all traces of silver chloride.

Also, Ammen said that a few drops of amm hyd in a solution derived from black sands leached with A/R would drop out any iron.

Any thoughts on this ? Doggone shipping and hazmat fees are over the hill. That is why I thought about boiling down ammonia from store bought stuff.

If you will send me a figure for the hydrazine, ( including shipping this time ) I will post haste funds to you.

My pipes froze three days ago. Wind chill at bout -18. First time in 15 years. How is your weather ? Phill


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## butcher (Jan 22, 2009)

for silver regular household ammonia should be fine, and I dont know about you black sand concentrate but here I woulld not expect that much silver,I expect he was using it so silver if any would release the gold.
maybe IRON'S will see this and enlighten us both on the subject


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## EVO-AU (Jan 22, 2009)

Butcher: There is some silver and some lead in this ore. I've never found mercury in this bench, but have picked up some when dredging this creek. 

From about 1 1/2 miles south of here to about ten or twelve miles north of here - panning on the Hungry River - from about 1895 to about 1945 a prospector spent about fifty years digging and testing. He found that lead, silver and gold ran together, What quantities I can only guess. There is a lead mine not far from here where Johnny Reb dug their ore and cast bullets. The mine is closed off because of housing and I've dispatched some big rattlers in that area. There is a tremendous amount of history in these mountains. 

Hope that Irons catches that about the silver. Oh yeah, black sand in this bench is about a teaspoon to the 5-gal bucket. Lots of quartz, tho' ,,,,,,Phill


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## butcher (Jan 23, 2009)

now this is not about your ore but when I process electronics and have lead , silver and gold in soution of HCl with a strong Oxidizer(bleach, nitric, H2O2, whatever) then silver lead and gold will dissolve and be soluble, (although silver and lead does not disolve well in Hcl) (it somewhat disolves)(and it can also be hard to get the gold to disolve because they dont disolve easy but oxidize and protect themselves from disolving and can make it hard to get the gold out of it)
after disolved and when I boil out my oxidizer adding Hcl to keep wet the last boil, I will add a coulple of drops of sulfuric acid ( this will help lead precipitate out later , then when water added to dilute the cloride solution silver and lead will precipitate if let sit 24 hours a little table salt to make sure all silver drops as silver chloride,the gold chloride will stay disolved untill you use a precipitant to precipitate it, decant gold chloride liquid from powder of silver and lead, now wash the silver lead chloride's in filter, they can be seperated in boiling hot water which makes lead slightly soluble but silver will not be soluble and stay as powder, the silver powder will be whitish, but turn violet to gray black in sunlight.
hope this helps some,


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## EVO-AU (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks Butcher: I am familiar with the use of sulfuric to gas away the lead on the last boil. 

Every post refers to the ppt as powder. Am I missing the boat somewhere, because after I dry my ppts' before smelting, it is always in a granular form. No matter how much I grind it down. In the vernacular of everyone, is granular the same as powder ? I've just printed out your post so I can play with it in the lab.

This to Randy and Butcher - would you believe that after below zero three days ago, it is now 72. The time is now 2:12 pm. Wow !!!

Phill


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## Platdigger (Jan 23, 2009)

Phill, the sulfuric does not cause the lead to off gass,

just drop out of solution as lead sulphate.
Randy


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## butcher (Jan 23, 2009)

when gold disolved into a liquid and precipitated back out as fine brown powder, that is the only way I know to describe it.


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## EVO-AU (Jan 27, 2009)

Randy:

Ok, I get the drift. I just read it wrong.

Butcher:

I guess powder and granular could be one and the same, depending on final grind rate. Semantics, they always get in the way.

Thanks guys, Phill

Just came aacross this little ditty. It seems, a few miles from here, a fellow ( friend of mine ) sort of, was drilling for water for his new home. About fory feet or so up comes this nugget of about 2 1/2 ozs. So what does he do, stop all construction puts up a fence and starts digging a shaft. He doesn't know me or anybody else for that matter anymore. No disrespect meant, but I do hope it is a dry hole. HA ! HA !


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## butcher (Jan 28, 2009)

hope he doesnt bury himself it that hole.


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## EVO-AU (Jan 29, 2009)

Butcher Serves him right for his anti-social attitude. Gold does funny things to people.

Butcher /Randy:

What does this mean ?

HAucl4 


Phill


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## butcher (Jan 29, 2009)

gold chloride it is the gold that was dissolved
acidic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(III)_chloride,


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## EVO-AU (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks Butcher


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## EVO-AU (Feb 2, 2009)

Randy/Butcher:

I think I have this figured out.

Wash the ppt's in an hcl solution and then rinse with an ammonia solution. The hcl solution cleans out the remaining silver and other junk and the ammonia ( being a base ) neutralizes the acid. Then as Irons' stated - repeat the whole procedure twice more. It seems to make sense when comparing with the procedures that I've used these past two years.

However, a question arises. Since ammonia and sodium hydroxide are both bases, can sodium hydroxide be used as the neutralizer instead of the ammonia.

Butcher-you are the chemist - what do your think ? Is there something about the ammonia that makes it a better neutralizer than sodium hydroxide ? Phill


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## qst42know (Feb 2, 2009)

HCL, water, water, ammonia, water, water.

HCL removes traces of base metals and does not remove silver. The ammonia is not to neutralize acids it dissolves and removes traces of silver. If you do these rinses hot you remove any traces of lead.


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## butcher (Feb 3, 2009)

no I am not a chemist, just have been studying this refining for few years, it seems, to understand it, we should Know the basic principles which do involve chemistry, so I have been struggling to teach myself the chemistry of it, 
qst42know is right on with his answer.
ammonia Hydroxide water is a weak base and would if mixed with HCl acid , would neutralize it to a salt of Ammonium Chloride, but it would take about 5 times as much ammonium hydroxide as HCL.
but that is not the purpose here as quest42Know stated.


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## Platdigger (Feb 3, 2009)

As far as just neutralizing goes, you could also use 
sodium carbonate (soda ash),
sodium bicarbonate (baking soda),
calcium carbonate, or calcium hydroxide (both forms of lime).

Or even the potassium variaties of the above.
(although I have no experiance with the potassium)
Randy


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## EVO-AU (Feb 3, 2009)

Qst/Randy/Butcher:

Just printed all your replies and will mess around tomorrow ( Wed.) Much, much appreciate ---- Phill

That cat with the drill is down at the point where the nugget has come up. He is being friendly with me now, because he says he can trust me. Oh well,------


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## fixinator (Feb 4, 2009)

I have a question.....after rinsing with amonia can the silver be recovered easily from the resulting solution?


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## EVO-AU (Feb 4, 2009)

Randy, Butcher, Qst:

I too was going to ask the same question. Phill

Doggone, but it is wind chill about 12 below again. There go the pipes again. How is it up in the Northwest ? Of course, your winters are a darn site longer than mine. Brought my dog home from the vets yesterday, wow do they make their money. But, it is still cheaper than spending on some broad. And animals take you for what you are. Great life. Phill


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## Platdigger (Feb 4, 2009)

Check this thread guys. 
It is basically by just adding sugar.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=944&highlight=ammonia+silver

The nights are still cold here.....but the days are just plain beautiful!
Randy


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## EVO-AU (Feb 4, 2009)

Man, I got so much reading and experimenting to do now, and then comes the suger and ammonia. But is it ever interesting.

Randy: Amen to the sights, the sky just dazzles the bleak woods and fields. It is so windy here that the gaggle of turkeys that hang around behind my place are down in the canyon. When the wind dies down, you can hear their chatter drifting up the land. This whole area is a bird sanctuary, so as far as I know they ar pretty well protected. But the deer are feeding and they are magnificent creatures. Phill

QST - are you a ham ?


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## qst42know (Feb 4, 2009)

If at the rinse stage you have anything but the slightest trace of silver you have already botched the job. The silver should have been thoroughly filtered out before precipitating the gold.

No I'm not a ham, but I am a bit of a smart-ass at times. :lol: 

Qst42know is short for quest for knowledge.


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## fixinator (Feb 4, 2009)

OK, with the filtering and washing thing set in order is it a good way to purify the silver chloride before conversion?


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## EVO-AU (Feb 5, 2009)

QST:

Yeah, well my retorts ( pardon the pun ) haven't exactly garnered any awards.

Quest for knowledge - cute - ! Phill

Shows you where my mind is - I assumed the hcl/ammonia wash was done after the precipitation, not before. I have no idea where I picked that up, but how on earth does a person do the hcl/ammonia thing with a solution, which is what I have after a leaching ?


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## Platdigger (Feb 5, 2009)

OK Phill, I thought I had found the thread that mentions what you are asking about. Only thing is the post by Harold was made on January 19, and you Started this thread on January 5. Plus there is no mention of ammonia, but, here it is anyway.

Harold said this:
There's a bit of logic involved in adding HCl (or sulfuric) when you boil a solution that is slow, or refuses to settle. Often there are substances that may choose to settle out as well. By adding acid, you tend to keep them in solution. Think of it as a pre-wash to the future wash of the recovered values. It can do no harm, which makes it a good idea.

Now, to keep this in the conext with which he made this statement, here is the thread: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=34654&highlight=#34654


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## qst42know (Feb 5, 2009)

qst42know said:


> If at the rinse stage you have anything but the slightest trace of silver you have already botched the job. The silver should have been thoroughly filtered out before precipitating the gold.




I think fixinator was asking if the silver could be recovered from the ammonia rinse solution? 

The above was to imply at the rinse stage of a gold precipitation there shouldn't be enough silver to recover from the ammonia.

This thread has been all over, now I'm getting confused. :?


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## fixinator (Feb 5, 2009)

OK, hopefully I can clear up some of the confusion. Sometimes there is a substantial amount of silver chloride to get out of the mix. Is it wise to use ammonia in mid process to remove the silver and then filter and acidify to re-precip?


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## fixinator (Feb 5, 2009)

More specifically...processing high silver content computer scrap with acid peroxide produces a sludge that is high in copper, lead, iron and sometimes silver. Would it be wise to wash this sludge with ammonia before further processing? Is there any reason not to do this before washing with sulphuric or processing with HCl/clorox or aqua regia?


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## qst42know (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't think rinsing silver sludge with ammonia will do anything but dissolve it and put it back into solution with what ever contaminates that are present.

I believe there is a safety issue dissolving quantities of silver in ammonia?

Lou?


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## EVO-AU (Feb 6, 2009)

Gentlemen:

I am not working with electronic scrap and my ore has no silver in it to date. I don't care for scrap, all my work is in raw ore. Straight from mother nature - so to speak. So in essense, as per my original questions on this post, I am looking for a purifying of the ppt's before smelting.

Qst - on your post of Tues 2/3 you said that ammonia is good for disolving lead. Well, if that is the case why don't I just stick to sulfuric acid ? Phill


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## qst42know (Feb 6, 2009)

EVO-AU said:


> Qst - on your post of Tues 2/3 you said that ammonia is good for disolving lead. Well, if that is the case why don't I just stick to sulfuric acid ? Phill



No, I did not. 

I said, do your rinses while hot. 

Traces of Lead chloride will remain in solution while hot and precipitate on cooling. You pour off the rinse solutions while still hot to remove the last traces of lead from precipitated gold.

Sulfuric does not dissolve lead. 

A small amount of Sulfuric is used before you precipitate the gold solution. This should allow you to remove the bulk of the lead. It forms lead sulfate which is a solid that can be filtered out of the gold solution. 

This is done before you drop the gold not in the rinsing.

Please excuse me for being blunt but are you following some accepted method for processing your ore or making it up as you go along?


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## jsargent (Feb 8, 2009)

EVO-AU said:


> I sent Twigg a button about a year ago and a jeweler friend of his said it was about 90 % pure. So I know that this ore is rich. Or like I told Randy, I've probably got a bunch of pockets rich and nil. By the way, that button, about 3 or so grams came from a total ( before processing ) of about six #'s or ore.
> 
> I always get at least a tiny bit from every batch. But if this HCL washing, boiling or whatever can improve my results - so be it !!!
> 
> Anybody else have anything to offer ? Phill



:shock: Dang :shock: You're getting on average about half a gram per pound? That's awesome. I would love to run a small batch of your ore for you if you're interested. I have a small company specializing in developing environmentally sound methods of processing refractory ores. Send me a PM if you're interested. 

Jeff Sargent


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## butcher (Feb 8, 2009)

do a web search on solubility rules, this may help you to understand what metals are soluble, silver chloride is insoluble, in dilute Hcl solutions, also lead sulfate is insoluble,


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## jsargent (Feb 9, 2009)

butcher said:


> do a web search on solubility rules, this may help you to understand what metals are soluble, silver chloride is insoluble, in dilute Hcl solutions, also lead sulfate is insoluble,



From AK Williams:
Rules of Solubility

Nitrates, chlorates, and acetates of all metals are water-soluble. No exceptions. 

All Sodium, Potassium, and ammonium salts are soluble in water. No exceptions. 

Chloride salts of all metals except Lead, Silver, and Mercury 1 (ous) are water-soluble. E.g., Mercurous Iodide is insoluble. Water insoluble Chlorides, Bromides, and Iodides are also insoluble in dilute acids. 

Carbonates, Phosphates, Borates, Sulfites, Chromates, and Arsenates of all metals except for sodium, Potassium, and Ammonia are water-soluble. 

Sulfides of all metals except for Barium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, and Ammonia are water-soluble. 

Oxides and Hydroxides are water insoluble except for Sodium, Potassium, and ammonia. (Hydroxides of Calcium and Barium are moderately soluble in water.


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## Ignatz61 (Feb 9, 2009)

Hi all,

I am interested in the role of amonia in cleaning black gold powder/sludge.

I have sludge from the sulphuric cell. It is gold, silver maybe a trace of copper and lead or tin. I have been following the wash / rinse procedure prescribed here. 
Hcl wash hot, water 3x, amonia.... when I get to the second or third water wash the sludge starts becoming a nice black powder that stays together well and settles quickly. Then I add amonia and I get Black ink! It stays suspended even after heating. 
What am I doing wrong? I am trying for clean gold powder berfore Putting in AR.
Thanks, John


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## EVO-AU (Feb 9, 2009)

QST: I misinterpeted your words. No harm done. As for making things up. I probably run a half dozen tests on each step before and after the run. Us yankees are known to be stubborn and would rather spend the extra time then to come up with a result and not know where it came from. Once something works for me, I pretty much stick with it, but I am very cautious. I learn from my mistakes,but then again - the fewer the better. Phill

Randy/Butcher/Qst: What would a good oxidizer be to mix with the hcl to clean the ppt's ? Remember now, this is ore, not scrap .............

Got to run, have to put in a temp post at a house site while the weather is decent. Phill


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## qst42know (Feb 9, 2009)

Ignatz61 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am interested in the role of amonia in cleaning black gold powder/sludge.
> 
> ...



The rinse procedure described was for gold precipitated from AR or HCL/CL.

From the top of page 18 in the 1st handbook is a quote from Steve to use HCL/CL on the black gold powder. Perhaps Steve will elaborate on the process for you.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2887935/GOLD-REFINING-FORUM-HANBOOK-VOL-1


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## qst42know (Feb 9, 2009)

EVO-AU said:


> I sent Twigg a button about a year ago and a jeweler friend of his said it was about 90 % pure. So I know that this ore is rich. Or like I told Randy, I've probably got a bunch of pockets rich and nil. By the way, that button, about 3 or so grams came from a total ( before processing ) of about six #'s or ore.



Phill

Using one of the refining processes found throughout this forum there is no reason your button couldn't have been 99.9+ pure.

I have no experience in processing ore. There are many here that have. Knowing the exact nature of your ore would help them help you. Photos of the minerals before crushing perhaps can help identify the right process?


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## lazersteve (Feb 9, 2009)

Here's the link:

Black Powder from Cell

I've got an ounce or so that I plan on processing and filming for my website when time permits.

Steve


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## Ignatz61 (Feb 9, 2009)

I thought the wash procedure would be similar. The precipation from AR and the gold powder from the cell both could contain similar contaminants (The cell of course could be dirtier) Therefore similar washes.

I followed Harolds advice-Hot HCL (boil) and the powder settled and I was able to decant and wash with water again.

What does the Amonia do that makes the powder become so fine that it remains suspended?


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## butcher (Feb 10, 2009)

but the salts of these metals are different and so is the chemistry. making ammonium sulfate is different from ammonium chloride, and then you have the metal ions in solution which can also be different, what may be soluble in chloride may not be as a sulfate etcetera.


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## jsargent (Feb 11, 2009)

EVO-AU said:


> QST: What would a good oxidizer be to mix with the hcl to clean the ppt's ? Remember now, this is ore, not scrap .............
> Phill



Phill- Have you tried peroxy monopersulfate? It is available at most swimming pool shops as a non-chlorine pool oxidizer. VERY powerful but relatively safe and easy to use. Be aware that if your solution has salt in it, the chlorine will outgas like a fat dog eating bean burritos.

Not sure if you got my PM's. Sometimes there's problems with PM function on this forum. Just email me at [email protected] if interested.

Jeff


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## Platdigger (Feb 11, 2009)

jsargent, since Phill is asking about removing base metals from precipitates. How is peroxy monopersulfate going to be used?

Phill, I am not sure if you are asking about adding an oxidizer to hcl, but, if so, any oxidizer you add will cause some (if not all) of your values to be put back into solution.
Randy


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## EVO-AU (Feb 12, 2009)

Randy: Got your post, but can't get back to you immediately. Tomorrow, more time. Thanks, Phill


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## jsargent (Feb 12, 2009)

Platdigger said:


> jsargent, since Phill is asking about removing base metals from precipitates. How is peroxy monopersulfate going to be used?
> 
> Phill, I am not sure if you are asking about adding an oxidizer to hcl, but, if so, any oxidizer you add will cause some (if not all) of your values to be put back into solution.
> Randy



Good point Randy. If he adds chlorox or nitric as oxidizers they'll certainly pull values back into solution. Not sure about monopersulfate doing it any more so than H2O2, so it MIGHT be safe. Personally I wouldn't use any oxidizer with the HCL if all I was doing was washing the precips. Maybe heat it up a bit.


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## EVO-AU (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeff/Randy: Thanks guys. Things are getting more sensible all the time.

I believe I have found a way to eliminate the primary leach mess ! No chemicals ! Goes back to mother nature ! The experiments are fun, rather intriguing, and VERY non-toxic. !!!!!!!! We'll see ! 

Anybody out there have any ideas in regard to doing without chemicals, except for the final refining and smelting. Something just clicked in my searching endless mind. Might just do away with smelting too. Sounds far-fetched, I know. But the possibility exists.

Phill


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## EVO-AU (Jul 7, 2009)

Rick, Randy, Harold, etc and etc:

Here we go again. I was following Hokes on cleaning and washing ore and then covering with Nitric. I did one run with Nitric and one run with HCL. Well, I have not finished up with the nitric run yet, because the HCL run proved out like all my previous runs in other methods. Anyway, the solution from the HCL run turned out to be a nice dark brown color. Well, my usual acid neutralizer is also my ppt. So without leaching in general and then pH'ing I found that just using cold HCL ( ala Hoke ) after drying the mike showed beautiful gold in the dark brown powder.

Question ?? Does this mean that ( short of repurification ) the cold HCL is the actual leach or should I go another step and do an Iodine or SSN leach ? Things sure do get screwy in chemistry.

Sure could use some more opinions here. Thanks. Phill


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## Platdigger (Jul 7, 2009)

Phill, what do you mean by "after drying the mike"?

If you truely are getting gold from your ore with just HCL, you could have some water soluable gold in there.

Don't get excited Harold, I have documentaion from Action Mining stating they have proved this to ocur....... They were themselves sceptical about this existing before doing some testing.

Not sure what form the gold would be in, I mean, in the ore....perhaps chlorides.
Randy


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## Harold_V (Jul 7, 2009)

The dark color, to me, indicates the presence of considerable iron. If a test with stannous chloride doesn't prove the presence of gold, that's likely what you see. 

The only reason I'd have a question about water soluble gold would be the same reason AR shouldn't be used for extraction. All too many elements can serve as a precipitant---so the chance that gold would remain in solution is remote, at best. 

I believe in the concept. I do NOT believe it to be true in practice. I'd have to witness gold being removed by nothing more than water. I surely wouldn't believe anyone's word. If , indeed, they have gold in solution, having used nothing but water, I'd question the chemical makeup of the feed, where chances are more likely to be of such a nature that a solvent is created upon the addition of water. 

Harold


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## Platdigger (Jul 7, 2009)

Yes, Phill, how did you determine this to be indeed gold in this "dark powder"?
Randy


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## EVO-AU (Jul 8, 2009)

Randy: Roasted twice, cleaned with citric acid, tested for iron and then tried a very strong magnet that a friend built for me just for this purpose. Simmered in HCL for about ten minutes and tested with Stannous. Then used the microscope ( mike ) and got real excited when I saw the au nuggets in the brown-black powder. All this after I soaked the ore in HCL for about twenty hours. Phill


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## Platdigger (Jul 8, 2009)

I am still trying to understand,.....this powder IS the ore? 
Or is it a precip somehow from the hcl leach?


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## EVO-AU (Jul 9, 2009)

precip from the leach. Before drying the multiple-washed precip, it is a deep yellowish orange. When it ( the powder ) dries, it turns dark brown. Phill


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## EVO-AU (Jul 10, 2009)

Randy:

My blooper, you had me up the funnel; the phrase "after drying the mike" should have had a comma after the word drying - thus separating two thoughts. Cie Le Vie !!!!!!!!!! Phill


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## EVO-AU (Jul 10, 2009)

Randy/Harold:

From an herbal view, look up ' Henriette's Herbal Home Page " and see her bit on soluble gold in water. It is labeled 'gold and sodium chloride'. Interesting. Phill


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