# Platinum : Another way !



## Anonymous (Mar 18, 2007)

Hi All, Plats from cats ... nitric acid,,,aqua regia bla bla bla.
that stuff is all over the web. Have any of you heard of getting platinum from catalysts with just water and air ?
ITS TRUE.
Its called Super critical water oxidisation.
basically , the cats are decanned like normal then broken into pieces before crushing into a dust.
The dust is mixed 5 parts mix to 95 parts water. The water is cooked in a giant pressure cooker at very high pressure ( 221 Bar ) heated to 365degrees C . at this temp at this pressure becomes " supercritical" , this a gas type substance but with the viscosity of a liquid.
In this substance organic and cabonic ( the monloth ) disolves into the liquid, while the pgms remain solid.
Oxygen is pumped into the mix, this oidises the metals. the mix is then cooled , steam is let off. leaving the pgms.


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 18, 2007)

Welcome to the forum OxfordPt,

Great post, it's news to me. 

What is the minimum scale for the operation you speak of. Do you have a web site reference or patent citation to share with more info?

Steve


----------



## Noxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Interesting... what is the purity of the yield ?


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 19, 2007)

The purity of each product is as it was when it went in, For example, if pure platinum went in its pure when it comes out.
As for size, i'm working on that right now. designing a model that will fit in a small garage or garden shed or could be mobile in a small trailer or in the back of a van. I will keep you posted on the progress.
for 500 mixed auto cats about 1.875Kgs can be recovered. Pd=44.1% Pt=46.6% Rh=9.3% of the load.
See Platinummetalsreview.com/pdf/141-200pmr-oct03.pdf


----------



## Noxx (Mar 19, 2007)

Ok, It only recovers the PM not refine it.


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 19, 2007)

OxfordPlatinum said:


> Hi All, Plats from cats ... nitric acid,,,aqua regia bla bla bla.
> that stuff is all over the web. Have any of you heard of getting platinum from catalysts with just water and air ?
> ITS TRUE.
> Its called Super critical water oxidisation...



What an energetic young visionary you must be, Oxford. *Glad to see your post. * I've been waiting for someone to downsize that particular process and peer publish on it--its been out since about '02, and ripe for what you are attempting. I wish you all the best!

Are you part of a working group tackling this downsizing SCWO? Most on this side of the Atlantic aren't aware of it, unless they are in sewage treatment, which also creates metallic oxides which are resellable.

I hope you return and continue to share about your Critox schema. And I'm looking forward any of the pre-feasibility cost studies conclusions you might be willing to share publically or privately.

a man named Sue


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 19, 2007)

After an initial review of the material presented by OxfordPt and a little side reasearch on the subject, I feel like this process has promise. Unfortunately the end result will still need to be purified as Noxx has already pointed out. This ultimately means we haven't loosed the chains of AR we have just prolonged this inevitable step of purification. The up side is that you can use less AR in purification process due to the reduced volume of the input materials. One other important factor in this endeavour is the expense of the inital setup and research to get it working right. I wish you luck in your mission to achieve the ultimate Pt recovery process. If you get something that works I'm sure the forum would benefit from the fruit of your labor if you choose to share it.

Steve


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 22, 2007)

hi, a man named sue,thanks for the complements! No I'm not part of a group, Im working single handed on this project, I usally work on oil industry projects but precious metal recovery and refining is something i've been into for a couple of years.
I'm trying to find " a different way" , One that does not need to kill you with acids and their fumes or give the Government reason to suspect you of terrorism.
I've an idea that will work (in theory) that has not been discovered yet 
( as far as i can tell) .
I will keep this site up to date on any progress.


----------



## Noxx (Mar 22, 2007)

Well, thats interesting ! As a future chemical engeneer, I would like to learn this process


----------



## platinumill (Apr 2, 2007)

yeah, that keep the plats from the cats kit by megan rose is a joke. she charges $150 dollars for the biggest ripoff. I bought it for the fun of it and it taught me nothing. That stuff is available for free all over the web. Her methods are also very dangerous. She has you filter and evaporate like 20x using aqua regia. I think by th 6th filtering you'd be dead.
The Platinumill,on the other hand is very safe to use. It does use chemicals, but there is no filtering,evaporating, or any dangerous methods. being safe is always important. you can run this machine indoors, with virtually no fumes.
Platinumills.com


----------



## Noxx (Apr 2, 2007)

Platinumill, please try to be respectful even if you think your product is better. 
We deal with dangerous fumes everyday and It's not so hard to avoid your exposure to them (with propper respirator).
Thanks


----------



## goldsilverpro (Apr 3, 2007)

Platinumill, for several years, I've read a lot of similar complaints on the web. I think you sound sincere and that your complaints have nothing to do with your machine. Your machine sounds interesting and I would like to know more about it. So far, all of the other systems I've seen aren't worth a damn for the little guy. 

The best method I've seen is to melt everything in a plasma arc furnace and then let the metals settle out of the molten mass, like the big guys do. But, most of us don't have several million dollars.

I've seen a few patents that grind the catalyst fine and then gravity separate the metals using things like separating tables or spiral wheels. They don't get it all but some claim recovery in the 90+% range. Anyone tried this or know anything about it? Sure sounds easy.

I've always thought of the possibility of grinding and separating the metal out in a froth flotation cell. Those FF cells are amazing and simple if you can work out the details on a particular material. Anybody?

A lot of people use aqua regia to dissolve the metals. What bothers me is that you can't dissolve rhodium in aqua regia. Or, is it so finely divided that it does dissolve? I know it will form a chloride. Anybody?


----------



## platinumill (Apr 8, 2007)

I really dont mean to bash anyone, but Keep the Plats from the Cats is not worth $5. I have researched every method that I have come across that has to do with recycling converters. Usaually you have to pay for that information, and most of it is a rip off, not all, but most. 
I definatly want to learn more about the water method. I am not sure how that method will recover PGM ions, but then again I don't know that whole process. I would like to learn more about it.
Also, I believe these forums are here to help us refiners and PGM recovery specialists to gain access to valuable information. My opinions of one of Megan Roses products is honest, but it is my opinion only. It is my opinion based on my experience. Thats what forums are for. 
-rob


----------



## lazersteve (Apr 8, 2007)

Rob,

I believe the SCWO method works by dissolving the substrate material as opposed to attacking the PGMs. I've posted the pages referenced by OxfordPt on my website in the documents column:

www.goldrecovery.us

I also found information that the technique is being used by the US Government to dispose of old materials. The super critical water attacks organics and turns them into basic component compounds. It's like boiling a piece of tissue paper it breaks down and dissolves. The PGMs are recovered as their oxides. As with your device they will have to be separated and refined.

Steve


----------



## platinumill (Apr 8, 2007)

Ok, Ive read about Aqua Cat before. Im not sure how that can be done on a smaller scale and be affordable, but I havn't researched that method to much.


----------



## weiser (Aug 16, 2007)

I have an idea but was wondering exactly what starting material you have after opening up the cat?


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 16, 2007)

The inside is typically a honeycomb or monolith substrate, kind of like and air filter. The substrate is coated with Palladium, Platinum, and Rhodium.


Once the cat is used it also has lots of other "grunge" in it like carbon.

Steve


----------



## weiser (Aug 16, 2007)

How much physical effort is needed to take the "substrate / air filter and physically reduce it to the bare elements or does it have to be leached?


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 16, 2007)

I've only seen the whole uncrushed substrates in photos. I have about 15 pounds of the crushed honeycomb on hand. One of the members who is more into cats can answer this better than I can. I'm sure someone with more hands on knowledge about cats will post a reply soon. I have one unopened cat that I'll disassemble and process for my upcoming PGM DVD.

Steve


----------



## weiser (Aug 16, 2007)

In your opinion...and I know it maybe a guess do you think the metal is embedded into another material or in the crushed state do you think it may be free?


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 16, 2007)

It's on the surface of the substrate. The idea of the substrate is to provide the greatest surface area for the PGMs to remove pollutants from the engine exhaust as it passes thru the cat.

Steve


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 16, 2007)

The metal is actually in an "ionic state" whatever that means.
It is not actually metal and should be leached. You cannot get
the metal out by crushing or melting (unless you have millions
invested in equipment and good credit with the electric company)
Action Mining sells a dvd that shows the whole process, it
is worth the money. You should be able to build the equipment
you see in the dvd on your own.
Jim


----------



## weiser (Aug 16, 2007)

OK...good! 2 more questions...is the metal physically attached by a chemical bond? Also, what is the chemical composition of the substrate?


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 16, 2007)

It is some type of ceramic honeycomb, I think it contains
alumina? That is soaked in the solution to coat the material.
It is like an electroplating solution that the metals are put on
from, but are not really physical metal. The honeycomb will
not look like metal when you break it out. It will be white to
grey ceramic looking, unless it is all sooted up with carbon.
The carbon also has to be burned off first, because that will
cause problems in reclaiming the pgm's.
Jim


----------



## weiser (Aug 16, 2007)

My theroy, and I have held this back for 20 years...may work! I just need to know answers to the my last two questions!


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 16, 2007)

Now you're getting into the gray areas. I'm under the belief that the metals are deposited on the substrates with chemical baths or as vapor deposits in an oven or kiln. I may be completely wrong. 

The substrates vary in composition simlair to ceramics.


You should google "Catalytic Converter Manufacturing" with the quotes and read some of the results.

and also check this link:

Wiki Cats


Steve


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 16, 2007)

Steve is more right with the chemical bath statement, electroplating
gives the wrong impression like how I stated. What is important is
that the metals "aren't metal" when put on. That is what makes it
difficult with recovering the metals.


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

If the metals are "depositied" then upon pulverizing they should be free. This is good! I am also thinking that by eliminating the substrate by some means will leave my method to work either way. In fact pulverizing if it leaves the free metals falls right into my trap! I need specific gravities.


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 17, 2007)

The bond sites are very small, think microscopic bonds. What do you plan on pulverizing them with to ensure atomic scale separation?

Steve


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 17, 2007)

Rich,
Good luck, alot of people have been working on this and with
the prices of the pgm's now especially rhodium at $6000, alot
more people have been working on this. I don't think it will be
as easy as you are thinking. But you gotta start thinkin somewhere
to get to where the answers are. There are alot of big companies
out there workin on this also. They basically melt it all, because they 
have the equipment to do so, but I am sure they are working on 
safer, cheaper ways to do it.
Jim


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

Good question Steve...I am was hoping for an answer to that before I try it


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

jimdoc said:


> Rich,
> Good luck, alot of people have been working on this and with
> the prices of the pgm's now especially rhodium at $6000, alot
> more people have been working on this. I don't think it will be
> ...



I am positive my method will work as long as the metal is sperarted from the substrate...and NO...no one has used this method since the early 1800's chem guys.


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

By the way...I will gladly share this...there are enough graveyards to help us all get wealthy


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

If anyone can send me an ounce or pulverized material it would help.


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 17, 2007)

Where in NJ are you?
Jim


----------



## badastro (Aug 17, 2007)

Only certain cat cons are made with an alumina substrate. I think the beaded variety fall under this category. Honeycomb material is made from cordierite.

I think the process to put metal in the substrate is to soak it in a bath of precious metal salts and then calcine the whole thing to leave a deposit of metal. The coating will be thin, there are no dust sized particles that can be efficiently sifted.

Another reason the big guys like to melt the material is because of all the soot and other hydrocarbon deposits on the substrate. Burning removes them. You can also use organic solvents if you desire it.

Where do you even get cat cons? They are very difficult to get.


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

jimdoc said:


> Where in NJ are you?
> Jim



On the coast in Brick which is near Asbury Park.


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 17, 2007)

Rich,
I am in Willow Grove PA 19090. If that isn't
too far for you to go, I will give you an ounce
of material. I also have book called "Material
Aspects In Automotive Catalytic Converters"
Edited by Hans Bode. You can look through the 
book if you stop over for the material.
Jim


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

Will take you up on that but I am leaving town for DC for the next week for business. I will contact you when I return.


----------



## weiser (Aug 17, 2007)

Another question?? Has anyone any estimate as to the gram weight total of the substrate?


----------



## lazersteve (Aug 17, 2007)

Weiser,

This question has a different answer for each type of cat. They are not all made the same.

Steve


----------



## weiser (Aug 18, 2007)

OK- Aside from a method I would like to try I have found that the ball type can be dissolved in concentrated H2SO4 and the honeycomb type dissolved in hydroflouric acid. Both will result in the substrate being dissolved and the metals to be free except for the Rhodium which will be freed as the oxide.

More later..


----------



## badastro (Aug 18, 2007)

Hydrofluoric acid is incredibly dangerous. It's not like any other mineral acid. Being exposed to a single drop will require immediate medical attention which usually consists of injections of calcium. Even accidentally wiping yourself with a cloth that contains the acid can kill you.

You can't even use glass to store it. It will dissolve glass. You will need a proper fume hood or risk killing people from acid vapors.

The link is an MSDS.
http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydFluoricAcid.html

I don't think you will be able to make any profit from the unsustainable use of expensive chemicals.

It would be much easier and safer to make a huge boiling aqua regia vat to process your material, but I don't recommend that either.


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 18, 2007)

All this is why leaching is the best way to do it for the
average person. Action Mining and Platinumills have
the right idea. Jim


----------

