# My vacuum filter wont vacuum



## steyr223 (Dec 2, 2012)

Hey everyone
First off California :no buchner or flasks allowed 

I have what appears to be the same shape as a flask
I have tried repeatedly to build a funnel that would
allow for vacuum, but keep getting stuck on the same
spot
The air seems to suck from around my coffee filters
Instead of from the bottom, it would appear the weight
Of the liquid is not heavy enough to push the filter
against the funnel, which makes no sense since it is
a vacuum? ??

Anyways here are some. Pics
Remember this is out in the field not at home
And I do plan on getting a vacuum pump.
Thanxs Steyr223 rob


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## steyr223 (Dec 2, 2012)

Another pic with the bottom of the funnel intact

Thanks I do appreciate anyone setting me straight
On this
I probably could have bought 2 or 3 setups with the
money I already spent :lol:


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## ericrm (Dec 2, 2012)

liquid will go by the easyest way...
i dont think your setup will work... you have to have enuf hole to cover the size of your filter paper,if not, the suction will not refrain the paper to lift and liquid will go under...


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## resabed01 (Dec 2, 2012)

steyr223 said:


> First off California :no buchner or flasks allowed




Rob,

What does this mean? Are they banned?


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## DONNZ (Dec 2, 2012)

If that don't suck. But it could if it ran out of air. 

Got some plumbers putty? Role out a line and seal the lip of the funnel. Press something against it like a plate. 

When it runs out of air something else might come through. 

If it works you could make a lid for the funnel. Even this can be further modified. A hole and a plug.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 2, 2012)

You can use a charmin plug made out of fiberglass instead of a disk with holes. 

You could also plastic weld a disk the same size as the inside circumference of the opening, not where it starts to slope into a smaller hole. The idea is to provide as much surface area per material ass possible so that it's easier for the liquid to pass through the material. If you look at the inside of a Buchner funnel you will see what I am talking about. 

Buchner funnels







You also need some way for it to seal against the glass, and shaped so that the more suction that is applied allows for it to seal better. Something like this.

Buchner funnel bung.






You might even go so far as to purchase disks to find inside your funnel so that the holes are the proper size.

http://www.avogadro-lab-supply.com/item.php?item_id=642

Or you might just buy a plastic Buchner funnel already made, it might end up being less expensive.

http://www.sciencecompany.com/Buchn...urce=google&utm_medium=shop&utm_campaign=prod

Also, the hand pump you are trying to use is for fluids, it's not going to create and maintain the type of suction you need. The diaphragms inside your liquid pump were made to allow for the pressure and transfer of fluids, and are not required to create an airtight seal. So although it transfers fluid, it is not efficient and would not work for sucking air through anything difficult. If you put your hand on the inlet, and use the pump you will see that it starts out strong be right away has weak suction. When you suck air against a Buchner funnel you are filtering material in, the suction starts out weak and gets stronger as an air pump is used to suck.

I recognized the fluid pump from Harbor Freight, so I thought I might make a suggestion for you. They have vacuum pumps at Harbor Freight that will work for what you are trying to do. You only actually need about 1.5 CFM suction, Harbor Freight sells a unit that does 2.5 CFM and one that does 3.0 CFM 

Vacuum pump Harbor Freight

http://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html

I cannot find it on their web page, but Harbor Freight also sells a small catch so that the corrosive air you are sucking doesn't end up in your vacuum pump and render it useless. It should be in the same area as the vacuum pump is.

Or if you don't want to spend that much, this might work for you, although I'm not positive how well.

Harbor Freight hand pump

http://www.harborfreight.com/brake-bleeder-and-vacuum-pump-kit-69328.html

Scott


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 2, 2012)

To create a vacuum in order to suck the solution through the paper, the paper must be sealed over every hole and space in the funnel. You also cannot have any creases at the edges of the paper where the air can enter. I see no way the funnel you have will work as a vacuum filter. The black bottom of the funnel is sloped and the paper won't seal there because it will be impossible to not get creases in the paper. Like ericrm said, the air flow created by the vacuum will find the place of least resistance. It will always travel through any tiny air leak rather than pulling the solution through the much more resistant paper. 

Notice the 3 white vacuum funnels in the photo. In these, a filter paper disc is used. Ideally, the diameter of the disc is of a size to completely cover all the holes, but not so large that it comes up the sides. The paper will be totally flat with no creases and no air leaks. The funnel, where it enters the flask, must also be completely sealed. There are several ways of doing this, but my favorite is a "set" of what SBrown called rubber bungs, as in his photo. Another way is to use a rubber stopper that fits snug in the flask, with a hole bored in it to fit the funnel stem.


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## steyr223 (Dec 2, 2012)

resabed01 said:


> steyr223 said:
> 
> 
> > First off California :no buchner or flasks allowed
> ...



Yes something to do about a process involved with
Manufacturing illicit or illegal drugs
My girl Amanda who works for Amico scientific says
It make it to easy
I believe I can still own one thow


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## steyr223 (Dec 2, 2012)

Ericrm, sbrown , gsp thanks to all
Yes I kinda figured the creases were causing
most of my problems.
I was still under the impression that going above
The filter would float it, but I guess not with
Vacuum
I never seen the inside of a buchner before
wow I almost got that right to :lol:

I had tried a chairman plug but with tissue paper
It worked so good it sucked the plug out 8) 

By the way that's the pump I almost bought
At harbor freight, but wanted to make sure my
Configuration was sound.

One thing bothers me why is everyone filtering
such small amounts?
Do they make bucket size, my flask doesn't even
Come close
Ok I can't see the last 10 lines on my phone
So I apologize for any mistakes
Thanks Steyr223 rob


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## MysticColby (Dec 3, 2012)

I live in california and I've never heard of it being illegal to own buchner funnels. I just ordered mine off Amazon :lol:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/175-2416770-8056720?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=buchner+filter#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=buchner+funnel&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abuchner+funnel
I should probably look into that... seems like a stupid way to try and hinder drug makers

I've used vacuum flasks up to 4 L in volume, but I'm sure they make larger ones if you have the money. I think a new 4 L is somewhere around $200. the bigger it is, the harder it is to make it implosion-proof.
I use a 2 L vacuum flask and 500 ml buchner. very easy to empty and continue (I've filtered 5 gal of liquid before)


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 3, 2012)

i live in California, and have purchased Buchner funnels from a retail business here in California. I have also purchased glass Buchner Funnels from companies outside the state of California. It is not illegal to purchase, nor is it illegal to own Buchner Funnels so far as I can tell, or my experience has been.

There was an issue over some round bottom reaction flasks I was trying to purchase at auction however. It was a county auction of confiscated items, some of which were lab equipment. I won the bid but when I went to pay for it and take them home they told me they couldn't sell it to me because it looked like there was residual material left in some of the glass reactors that might be leftover from a meth lab.

Needless to say I didn't want to buy the lab glass after I found that out anyway. I do know there are laws in place governing the purchase of some types of lab equipment. For example, one of my fume hoods came from a company called Spansion in Silicon Valley, they couldn't sell it to me until it was decontaminated, since then, I have run across a few things that were governed in the same way.

I would like to see the law, statute, whatever it might be that supposedly governs the sale of new Buchner Funnels. It seems insane you can purchase all the other equipment for lab work, but not a Buchner Funnel? I just saw a chemistry set that a college student was selling because they passed their course and no longer required the chemistry equipment, so obviously college students have access to purchase them. You don't even have to have a business license to purchase Buchner Funnels so far as I can tell, in the state of California.

Matter of fact, I don't know of any state in the United States where it is illegal to own or buy a Buchner Filter. I googled it, couldn't find anything. That doesn't mean that it's not possible, maybe at a city or county level, but I know of not one state that has banned the sale of Buchner Funnels.
Scott


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 3, 2012)

I was googling any laws that might govern the purchase or ownership of a Buchner Funnel in California, look what I came across. Ironic.

It's called a California Buchner Funnel

http://www.labconco.com/product/california-buchner-funnel/2549

Scott


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## MysticColby (Dec 3, 2012)

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
couldn't find any law pertaining to buchner to funnels, could you please provide a reference to where it says buchner funnels are illegal in california?

"California Buchner Funnel" is probably just a brand name type thing


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 3, 2012)

MysticColby said:


> http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
> couldn't find any law pertaining to buchner to funnels, could you please provide a reference to where it says buchner funnels are illegal in california?



I didn't say there were any laws against owning or buying Buchner Funnels in California, I was responding to what Steyr223 had said in the original post.



steyr223 said:


> Hey everyone
> First off California :no buchner or flasks allowed





> "California Buchner Funnel" is probably just a brand name type thing



I realize that is just a brand name of a specific design, I thought it was ironic because I was searching for laws governing Buchner Funnels, and ran across one that was named a California Buchner Funnel, which doesn't seem like it would exist if there were laws against owning or purchasing them in California.

Scott


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## MysticColby (Dec 4, 2012)

We did the same google search ^_^
my two thoughts when finding that California Funnel were: 1) brand name, 2) designed to be compliant with a law in that region. laws usually outline what an illegal thing is without naming it. If the law described a buchner funnel as "stem and bowl with holes" sort of thing, this company might make them as two pieces, but can be put together when you need to use them.


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## qst42know (Dec 4, 2012)

http://ag.ca.gov/bne/pdfs/laws03.pdf


Check page 12.

Texas and California have similar "guilty first" laws. 

Ohio is not far behind, I found out a couple days ago it is against the law in the state of Ohio to have a hidden compartment in a motor vehicle.

Pure stupidity.


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## steyr223 (Dec 4, 2012)

Wow! My phone was off for only a day
and look at all the replies I'm sorry 
for the confusion.
I do apologize, this was my mistake 
I talked with Amanda today after seeing all the posts
and she said that it is just a company policy
Not a law or regulation.

I don't know if any of you guys remember 
chem-lab from back in the eighty's, 

well apparently
amico was their main source of chemicals before
they knew what the chemicals were being used for

I'm sure you can understand there point of view

Anyways can someone maybe post page 12 if its not
Any trouble I can't view the link on my phone and
you got me interested now
Thanks again for everyone's time Steyr223 rob


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## qst42know (Dec 4, 2012)

> 11107. Sale of Laboratory Items
> (a)
> Any manufacturer, wholesaler, retailer, or other person or entity in this state that sells to any person or entity in this state or any other state, any laboratory glassware or apparatus, any chemical reagent or solvent, or any combination thereof, where the value of the goods sold in the transaction exceeds one hundred dollars ($100) shall do the following:
> (1)
> ...





> method of delivery, delivery address, and valid identifying information.
> (B)
> For the purposes of this paragraph, “valid identifying information” includes two or more of the following: federal tax identification number; resale tax identification number; city or county business license number; license issued by the State Department of Health Services; registration number issued by the federal Drug Enforcement Administration; precursor business permit number issued by the Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement of the Department of Justice; motor vehicle operator’s license; or other identification issued by a state.
> (C)
> ...


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## steyr223 (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks qst42know
I guess they don't care about the small Guy

Under $100.00 as usual stupidity
how about. 100 $99.00 sales

If Teddy bears were outlawed
Only outlaws
Would have Teddy bears


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 5, 2012)

qst42know said:


> http://ag.ca.gov/bne/pdfs/laws03.pdf
> 
> 
> Check page 12.
> ...



Yes but the document you are referring to only deals with how to report suspicious activity. This is a document that a neighborhood watch might be interested in, but it does not state anywhere that it is illegal to buy, or own any of this equipment.

Page 8 of this document states this:



> Any person who knowingly or intentionally possesses any laboratory glassware or apparatus, any chemical reagent or solvent, or any combination thereof, where the value of the goods exceeds one hundred dollars ($100), or any chemical substance specified in Section 11107.1, with the intent to manufacture a controlled substance, is guilty of a misdemeanor.



It is only against the law if you intend to make a controlled substance. And it's a misdemeanor which really amounts to nothing so far as the law is concerned. It's a ticket.

On page 12 I assume you are talking about this:



> (a)
> Any manufacturer, wholesaler, retailer, or other person or entity in this state that sells to any person or entity in this state or any other state, any laboratory glassware or apparatus, any chemical reagent or solvent, or any combination thereof, where the value of the goods sold in the transaction exceeds one hundred dollars ($100) shall do the following:
> (1)
> Notwithstanding any other law, in any face-to-face or will-call sale, the



And then the subsequent rules that follow. That is only if you are purchasing from someone within the state of California. You can purchase, happily, via the web on ebay or a supply company, anything you want so long as they are outside the state of California without worrying about complying with any laws for the sale or purchase of lab glass. Further more, so long as you take down the company or individuals information you can sell as much laboratory glass to anyone you want. That is fairly close to existing consumer laws in California, I know this because I have owned a couple grocery stores in the past. You cannot sell anything for less than what you purchased it for unless there are special circumstances for example, or you have to provide a receipt if requested, matter of fact you have to save all your sales information for tax purposes. If you own a business and sell anything there are all kinds of regulations and laws you must comply with anyway.

When I purchased acids, reagents, glassware etc from any of the places I do, they always take down my COMPANY information. A good reason to incorporate or start an LLC. It is the business that is then responsible for the purchase of labglass or supplies, under the law a corporation is considered an entity, and everything changes for the buyer at that point. It's your business name, and not your personal information that is recorded.

Scott


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 5, 2012)

steyr223 said:


> Thanks qst42know
> I guess they don't care about the small Guy
> 
> Under $100.00 as usual stupidity
> ...



It doesn't mean you have to keep your purchase under $100 dollars, it only means that the seller has to record and submit your information if you purchase over $100 worth of labware. There is nothing in there that says you can only purchase $100 dollars worth at a time.

EVEN at that, someone would have to believe that you were doing something suspicious, report it to a law enforcement agency, and that agency would then have to contact you in some way and probably ask what you are doing, will want to see your lab, etc. But even if that happens, you still can legally own, use and purchase labware, there are no laws preventing any purchase of any labware that I am aware of. So far as chemicals are concerned, some must be regulated and it should be reported what business are purchasing them.

Before I incorporated I was not able to purchase, as an individual, amino acids I need in the precipitation of silver nano spheres. Once incorporated now, I could not only purchase them, but as much as I want. But I did have to give my corporate information in order to do so.

I wouldn't want just anyone to be able to purchase dynamite for example. I really don't see any issues at all with these laws. I am more concerned going through airport security (TSA) than I am about purchasing a Buchner Funnel.

Scott


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## qst42know (Dec 5, 2012)

The snag is here.



> (B)
> For the purposes of this paragraph, “valid identifying information” includes two or more of the following: federal tax identification number; resale tax identification number; city or county business license number; license issued by the State Department of Health Services; registration number issued by the federal Drug Enforcement Administration; precursor business permit number issued by the Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement of the Department of Justice; motor vehicle operator’s license; or other identification issued by a state.



No provision for a hobbyist anything. The required second form of ID is a barrier for anyone wanting to learn chemistry or refining. Who wants to get a tax ID to buy a condenser?

Nearly any new US made lab ware in a useful size will exceed $100 easily (Coorstek funnel, 4L Pyrex filter flask, etc.). Besides this gives an unfair advantage to imported lab glass.

I certainly wouldn't want to go to court and hire a lawyer to defend myself because some over zealous investigator spied lab glass in my garage.

Laws like this don't stop criminals nor stem the flow of drugs they just impose on the freedoms of the rest of us.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 5, 2012)

I would rather give a business name and tax ID number than my personal information, corporations are set up as entities, thus taking on much of the responsibility away from the individual person when these types of purchases are made.

The entire document we are discussing the proper way to report suspicious activity with lab glass or equipment, and what the law requires a retailer or seller to do in the state of California in order to sell anything more than $100.

I don't like big government, but in this case I just don't see the issue really. I would prefer people who cook meth in their garage to be caught, rather than be able to continue making meth. Not only is there a huge risk with a house next door exploding, but it ruins the property, and if sold it would have to be professionally decontaminated, in a lot of places in California they require the house to be tested for meth in the gypsum/drywall now. If there is a meth house next door to you, it drops the value of your own house. The list goes on and on.

I don't see any issues with it. None at all. This isn't even nearly as intrusive as the information and data mining that credit card companies compile on everyone who uses cards. Imagine this, when compiled and drilled through, your credit information can tell your shopping habits, of course, but also what type of food you like to eat, what time of the year, what time of the day you like eating it, how much you eat, how much you spend per day, what your favorite places are, and so much more. And that information is sold to retailers along with your phone number, your address, your age, your family, etc etc etc.

When put into perspective, I don't see the requirement of your name and other information as a big deal at all. It's not like you can be arrested or charged with anything, if you are not doing anything illegal. And like I stated before, if you are making something illegal it's only a misdemeanor for owning laboratory glass, and only if the intent to make an illegal substance can be proven. I think I would be far more concerned over whatever laws I broke making something illegal rather than the misdemeanor associated with owning lab glass.

This somehow has been made into a huge deal. If you read the document it is not even a law, it's general information and refers to what a retailer must do in order to sell equipment of that nature. There is nothing in the document that stats anything about not being legal to own a Buchner Funnel.

Scott


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## steyr223 (Dec 6, 2012)

Sbrown said
" Imagine this, when compiled and drilled through, your credit information can tell your shopping habits, of course, but also what type of food you like to eat, what time of the year, what time of the day you like eating it, how much you eat, how much you spend per day, what your favorite places are, and so much more. And that information is sold to retailers along with your phone number, your address, your age, your family, etc etc etc."

I recently read in my hackers quarterly that there
Installing hot spots in every store in the malls so
When your phone picks up and uses the Wi-Fi automatically, this can track your every "retail"
activity. So to speak
In California the phone companies can do what
Ever they want with your info
Steyr223 rob


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 6, 2012)

steyr223 said:


> Sbrown said
> " Imagine this, when compiled and drilled through, your credit information can tell your shopping habits, of course, but also what type of food you like to eat, what time of the year, what time of the day you like eating it, how much you eat, how much you spend per day, what your favorite places are, and so much more. And that information is sold to retailers along with your phone number, your address, your age, your family, etc etc etc."
> 
> I recently read in my hackers quarterly that there
> ...



Hacker Quarterly? Are you talking about 2600?

This would be for another thread, or private conversation, but if you read the hacker quarterly you will understand what I am saying.

I used to red box with Hallmark record-a-card before it was made an offense, I also did my fair share of wardialing with an acoustic coupler modem, talk about tedium, and now today I wardrive with my android phone just to keep sharp. 

It would figure that someone here would mention the Hacker Quarterly. 

Scott


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## steyr223 (Dec 6, 2012)

Well well now, just when you think you got
a Guy figured out?

Yes 2600 another thread,you um a...ever get
Down to la/orange county area Scott

I noticed your 2 years younger than me
so it does make sense, I mean we are the
first and original computer generation the
world will be talking about 100's of years from
now. 
Of course will be only myth by then.
Steyr223 rob


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 6, 2012)

steyr223 said:


> Well well now, just when you think you got
> a Guy figured out?
> 
> Yes 2600 another thread,you um a...ever get
> ...



Most of it already seems to be myth. I have written a lot about the subject if you can believe that.

That has always been my mentality "hack the world". Now days it seems like the word only has negative meaning. But back when, hacking really meant figuring out how to do something, on your own, without benefit of being taught or trained. If you remember as I do, there just wasn't any information out there on computers, it was all trial and error, testing limits and boundaries and exploring something nobody else understood. I fully credit that type of mentality for driving me to read and learn about recovering and refining, oddly enough. It has probably served me better in this regard than most of my other life experience.

I do get to LA once in awhile, I have a lot of friends there. It would be interesting to meet up and have a chat about 8 inch floppies, shell accounts, and 2600 megahertz whistles found in cereal boxes. Did you ever change a crystal in a rat shack dialer?

Scott


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## steyr223 (Dec 7, 2012)

6.533 if I remember
And I loved my shell


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