# Messed up again



## travis86 (Oct 16, 2011)

After doing my ap process and Clorox then smb I got a decent amount of dark powder. I would say enough to make 2 bb gun bb's. Being excited to make it this far without problems I proceeded with cleaning the powder. I put the jar my powder was in on my hot plate enough to bring it to a simmer. I went through 2 water cycles and on my third I left it on to long and the water completely evaporated leaving some gold burnt to the bottom along with crystals? or maybe salts? I proceeded with my first hot hcl stage and let it warm a little bit and trying to scrap the gold off the bottom with my glass eye dropper and looking at it I realized about half the gold powder was gone and took my solution off the hot plate and just hoping for a miracle dropped about 1 gram of smb and nothing happened like I thought it would. With basically nothing left to refine I gave up and tossed it again. But what little bit I scraped from the bottom I examined it close up and it wasn't any cleaner then when I first started ( Blackish). Reason why I tried to do all the stages on the hot plate was because I would siphon off most of the liquid and let the rest evaporate leaving very little and dump more in. I only did this because some of the powder would just not settle down to the bottom at all and would float and I didn't want to loose it from trying to siphon off all the liquid. Any tips on refining and what was the crystal stuff at the bottom of my jar? And why do I suck so bad at this. Im afraid im probably gonna have to take a loss and move on after spending money for stuff like I do with every single hobby I attempt.


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## eeTHr (Oct 16, 2011)

travis---

It's very simple. There are two aspects to any process, as follows.

1. The _*concept*_ of the process purpose.
2. The _*details*_ of the process procedure.

It appears that you are focusing mostly on #2, and disregarding #1.

As for you specific questions---

First of all, it's not necessary to dry the gold at any time, until refining is complete, and your next step is to melt it into a button or bar (unless you need to incinerate it for some particular reason, during the refining stages).

If you have some floating on top of water, use a spray bottle to sink it, then decant the water.

If you still have gold suspended within water, after letting it settle, it will be very minute amounts. Just decant it into your stock pot, and let it add up, and deal with it all later.

I can't imagine there being any visable, non-metalic crystals forming after the proper rinsing cycles. :?:


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## travis86 (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks but I wasn't trying to dry the gold but to get rid of most of the liquid to do another liquid stage. And it was hardened clearish crystal type stuff on the bottom that would dissolve in water. then would come back when the water got low.


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## eeTHr (Oct 16, 2011)

travis---

OK, I get it.

This link will help---

Washing the gold powder after using SMB


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## eeTHr (Oct 16, 2011)

travis---

Here is another one, with more details and concept explanations---

It has everything to do with how you're refining.


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## travis86 (Oct 16, 2011)

Trust me I have read that and a few other gold cleaning posts. Im starting to wonder if the crystal stuff on the bottom after simmering the liquid away was smb?


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## eeTHr (Oct 16, 2011)

If it was, it would go away in the rinses.

P.S. Pleas quit throwing gold away. At least put it in your stock pot!


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## travis86 (Oct 16, 2011)

I barely had any to discard. Its like 3/4 of what I started out with evaporated? or something because it turned out missing


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## butcher (Oct 16, 2011)

If there was originally very little gold you may have just missed it, of possibly vaporized some of it?

Your gold could have changed forms from being a insoluble gold chloride , or elemental gold, to maybe gold sulfate depending on conditions, maybe gold vapors, or the acid concentrated and air oxidizing the gold could have put it back into solution, without testing you will never know, as your doing it blindly (you did not mention testing your solutions).

Do you use stannous chloride? Or are you doing this without eyes?

If you keep losing gold then maybe it is time to go back to the books (HOKE).


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## qst42know (Oct 16, 2011)

There really is no reason to advise you any more as you've thrown it away, again? 

Perhaps you lack the patients and presence of mind required to handle the dangerous chemicals needed for refining. A new hobby may well be in the best interest of you and those around you.

I don't suppose you disposed of your mess in a responsible manner either. Did you dump it down the sink, pour it in the yard, or feed it to the neighbors cat?

What do you seek here sympathy or help?


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## travis86 (Oct 16, 2011)

There was nothing in the solution because I dropped smb in it just to make sure and nothing happened. What powder was left was basically cemented to the bottom of the jar and I had to scrape it. I do not have stannous chloride I have to make some. I had plenty of Patience on this attempt considering II spent a week doing all the steps just to be sure. If I didnt have patience this time I would of just mekted it down the way it was and not try to clean it. and the liquid is in my chem waist bucket. Im probably gonna leave the black powder alone in the next attempt and do a poor mans ar on it to help it along since I have sodium nitrate. I got 10 free desktop computers and 3 laptops and other stuff for free to perfect this art.


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## qst42know (Oct 16, 2011)

You can't learn from your mistakes if you keep dumping them. Next time stop doing the guess thing, store the container safely, perhaps in a loosely covered bucket and just ask. It is better to get help in process (while following a known process) than to fail by quitting repeatedly.



[spelling edit]


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## butcher (Oct 16, 2011)

Travis, I think you miss qst42know's point.

it take's much more than a couple of weeks to understand this, this is not something you read a couple of pages and jump into, this is much more dangerous than you think, and as qst42know referred to what we do with waste materials can effect our health and future generations health.

If you really want to continue to learn to refine and recover these metals, then you should spend time studying, how will you deal with waste? Do you understand what will happen with these complex metals and solutions, also understanding where there may be very dangerous chemical formula's formed, have you read the MSDS of all metals chemicals and salts you will generate? Do you know what is in solution and what is in gases and know the precautions to take with their potential dangers? I could ask many more questions but if you want to you get the point, slow down get a cup of coffee and a good book (Hoke's book) and spend some more time reading on the forum.

Aqua regia is not very easy if you do not understand all the basics in refining, talking about losing gold, if that is what you like to do then try aqua regia without spending time studying.

Every one here on the forum is trying to help you, but before we can you must help yourself.


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## travis86 (Oct 16, 2011)

I know Ive been researching for over a month and I wasn't guessing I was just trying to perform 3 water rinses 3hcl baths and 3 more water rinses. I found it on this site to do that, The only thing that I guessed was to steam down the rest of the liquid that I didnt siphon off with a eye dropper. Yes I know chemicals are bad and so on considering I made my own Sodium Nirtate and thats probably the most dangerous thing ive done during everything. Ammonia gas isn't fun.


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## butcher (Oct 16, 2011)

just to hound you some more, 

"Any tips on refining and what was the crystal stuff at the bottom of my jar? And why do I suck so bad at this. Im afraid im probably gonna have to take a loss and move on after spending money for stuff like I do with every single hobby I attempt."


Travis, this is one hobbie you can master, but you will have to really want to do it, be dedicated, and the devil in details is important, it will take time, and work, yes there will be many problems and setbacks, you cannot learn to walk without falling down some, but also you need to learn to walk before trying to run. being new to this get Hokes book, work on the expieriments she walks you through, especilly the ones involving stanous chloride, but all the metal and acid tests, getting familiar with these reactions help, ok I will quit picking on the new guy :lol:


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## Palladium (Oct 16, 2011)

Travis, I've been learning and doing this for nearly five years now. My god !!! It's hard to believe the forum is nearly that old. I still screw things up on a regular basis. Messing up is part of the learning process. I've been playing with silver refining here lately because it's something new for me. What !!!!! Yep that's right, I’ve been doing this for 5 years and I’m just now getting to the silver process. I'll take a process and i will master it before i move on to a new field of study. Right now i have close to 10 oz of silver i have been playing with for over 2 weeks now. I've screwed it up 10 ways from Sunday 20 different ways now. I observe my mistakes, make note of it, and start over again. Once i get this silver chloride thing down and play with the washing a little more to get a handle on the process I’ll move on to a silver cell. When you start your next batch start a thread for it and we will walk you through step by step. The crystals are from to much bleach. When you evaporate it down they form. When you add warm water they dissolve. The material sticking to your beaker bottom says you’re heating it to quick. I've done that recently with silver, turns black. There are so many things to observe and learn from in these processes that it will amaze you. The reward is well worth it. I do like your attitude, but Patience...... Patience...... Patience......


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## Harold_V (Oct 17, 2011)

travis86 said:


> Thanks but I wasn't trying to dry the gold but to get rid of most of the liquid to do another liquid stage. And it was hardened clearish crystal type stuff on the bottom that would dissolve in water. then would come back when the water got low.


You clearly do not understand what you're doing. 

You do NOT evaporate to eliminate a solution. When you do, the only thing that is lost is the fluid, not the solids that are contained within, and will crystalize out, as you've seen. what you should have done is add water, allow the solids to settle, then decant (siphoning works well), then continued with a water rinse, until your rinse water was clear of color. 

You really should take a break from what you're doing and read Hoke. Keep reading until everything you read makes sense. If it doesn't, you can expect a continual struggle with the learning process. 

I have steadfastly admonished readers to read Hoke until what she teaches makes sense. Can you see why I do? Can you not see that until you understand the basics, you will have no end to the struggles you encounter?

Harold


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## nickvc (Oct 17, 2011)

Travis please heed the advice been given to you by some of our most senior members, be grateful they bothered to respond, I'm a newbie here compared to most of them and I listen very carefully to what all of them say or advise. Most of us here learn something virtually every time we come onto the forum but that's what this subject is like, it's a huge learning curve that you just have to keep following. In many ways having things go wrong on small amounts is good as it gives you something to research and learn about, so you can put things right, it's possible but do your part now and start reading. You don't have to stop tearing things down and accumulating material, you can also use the AP process to concentrate your materials while doing your research.....patience, you will get there that's what we are all here on the forum for, to help and learn.

Read Hoke and follow her testing procedures.....it makes the whole subject understandable.


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## Claudie (Oct 17, 2011)

nickvc said:


> Travis please heed the advice been given to you by some of our most senior members, be grateful they bothered to respond, I'm a newbie here compared to most of them and I listen very carefully to what all of them say or advise. *Most of us here learn something virtually every time we come onto the forum* but that's what this subject is like, it's a huge learning curve that you just have to keep following. In many ways having things go wrong on small amounts is good as it gives you something to research and learn about, so you can put things right, it's possible but do your part now and start reading. You don't have to stop tearing things down and accumulating material, you can also use the AP process to concentrate your materials while doing your research.....*patience*, you will get there that's what we are all here on the forum for, to help and learn.
> 
> Read Hoke and follow her testing procedures.....it makes the whole subject understandable.



I am constantly learning from this site, and you need patience. Good things come to those who wait. :| I remember my first AP attempt, I thought those pins would never dissolve, but finally, they did.... :|


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## dtectr (Oct 17, 2011)

What they said.

Interestingly, I've been reading portions of C.W. Ammen's _Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals_. Therein he stated that even pure Auric Chloride, when evaporated, contains only about 58% gold. The remaining salts/compounds need to be eliminated by careful washing & rinsing. 

Adding a precipitant drops the gold, at least, and/or other metals, but also adds other chemicals that need to be eliminated after they do their job.So, it wouldn't help to merely "melt what you have have - you would have a contaminated product.

I've been doing this for a little over a year, and as i've stated before, I'm now glad that i didn't have alot of feedstock or easy access to all the chemicals in the beginning, because my ADHD would likely have caused me to jump the gun and waste materials before I had time to better understand the processes and chemistry.

I remember the 1st batch of pins i did in AP - I was all excited when I saw the foils floating around, I thought I was done, though the pins weren't dissolved. I rinsed off the foils & processed them.

Fortunately, I saved them because later I understood that values can cement onto remaining base metals and fine particles of gold can be trapped in the mass of undigested pins. i reprocessed them & guess what? More gold.

You can do this, but only if you understand the processes. (Obscure movie quote from _Major League 3_) 
Scott Bakula: "Do you wanna know the good news?"
Walter Goggins: "Yeah, yeah; I'd like to hear some good news."
SB: "This is nothin' we can't fix."
WG: "Well, how do we do that?"
SB: "Sweat, sweat, and more sweat."

"Sweat" your mind, through study & practice.


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## travis86 (Oct 18, 2011)

dtectr said:


> So, it wouldn't help to merely "melt what you have have - you would have a contaminated product..


I know this. it was sarcasm. And as for the book I dunno how to read. Im just taking a break and collecting free junk from ads im running on my local craigslist. Im up to 17 pc towers, 3 laptops, 4 tube monitors, couple of cd players, external disk drives and some other junk.


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## Claudie (Oct 18, 2011)

If you don't know how to read, that may be a problem on an internet forum.... :| You may give this site a try first: http://www.learntoreadfree.com/ I hope it helps.


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## Harold_V (Oct 19, 2011)

travis86 said:


> dtectr said:
> 
> 
> > So, it wouldn't help to merely "melt what you have have - you would have a contaminated product..
> ...


You're doing one more thing. You're giving me cause to keep an eye on you. That may not be in your best interest. 
I suggest you serious-up, and forget the smart remarks. They won't get you far on this forum. 

Harold


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