# Smelting Problem



## Geo (Oct 29, 2016)

I have accepted a small batch of material that someone tried to smelt. It has about every metal you can imagine. The original material is high grade, military electronics (pins and connectors) CPU's of all kinds including ceramics, gold filled jewelry, gold plated jewelry, silver contact points still in the copper buss. I have about forty pounds to work on with another several hundred pounds if I can get the flux worked out. I want to work with small batches containing three or four pounds of metal (including existing slag) at a time. I have #4 salamander crucibles to work with. I need a flux combination that will take out the Fe and ceramic material and leave the copper and precious metals. I milled a couple of pounds of the material and leached the metals out to see what I was working with. From the two pounds I recovered 1.2 ounces of silver and right at a gram of gold. There was a strong positive test for PGM's as well. Not all of the material can be leached. A majority of the material is magnetic. The ceramic bodies of the CPU's are still intact but are coated with slag. There are large globs of metal and the whole mass is full of tiny prills. There are large masses of un-melted metal that appears to be iron. I plan on milling the entire mass and removing as much iron as possible manually.


----------



## kurtak (Oct 30, 2016)

Geo

Interesting problem/project you have here - because this is a situation different then the discussion going on here - I would like to suggest that we move this to a thread of its own posted in "Other Processes" with a new title like maybe --- Smelting Problem - or - Smelting Mess

It might be best if you copy & paste this post to the above suggestion - rather then having a Moderator do it - that way you could edit it (as I show below) & as well it would be nice to see some pics showing some of what you are talking about concerning this material --- & then this can be deleted (your post & my reply here)

I suggest the editing (including some pics) as there are a number of issues to deal with here & breaking the post up makes it easier to follow what's going on &/or easier to reply

In other words - what I am suggesting is - lets address your problem in a thread of its own - instead of trying to discuss it mixed in here with the alchemy BS & having one discussion clutter the other

Edit to add; - or a Mod could move it & re-title for us 8) :mrgreen: 

Kurt 



Geo said:


> I have accepted a small batch of material that someone tried to smelt. It has about every metal you can imagine. The original material is high grade, military electronics (pins and connectors) CPU's of all kinds including ceramics, gold filled jewelry, gold plated jewelry, silver contact points still in the copper buss.
> 
> I have about forty pounds to work on with another several hundred pounds if I can get the flux worked out. I want to work with small batches containing three or four pounds of metal (including existing slag) at a time. I have #4 salamander crucibles to work with.
> 
> ...


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Oct 30, 2016)

kurtak said:


> Edit to add; - or a Mod could move it & re-title for us 8) :mrgreen:


Always at your service.

Dave


----------



## kurtak (Oct 30, 2016)

Thanks Dave - I will be busy the rest of today so will have to wait till tomorrow morning to post more on this

Kurt


----------



## Geo (Oct 30, 2016)

Here's some pics of the material.


----------



## Geo (Oct 30, 2016)

Some more.


----------



## Geo (Oct 30, 2016)

One more.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Oct 30, 2016)

Eeuuuuuuwwwwwww!!! Did I see part of a kitchen sink in there? :lol: 

Best of luck Geo.

Dave


----------



## Lou (Oct 30, 2016)

Needs a bunch of copper, a rotary furnace, and a ton of borax 

Then...the copper cell!


Lou


----------



## Geo (Oct 30, 2016)

I have copper. The rotary furnace is a no go captain. There is a good amount of copper in the mix. It's hard to make out anything because of the oxidation but when it's wet, it looks like red brass in places. Too light for just copper. I have a few hundred pounds of good solid copper I can use.


----------



## geedigity (Oct 30, 2016)

Would you be able to use Cryolite mixed with borax and copper? The reason I am suggesting that is to be able dissolve the ceramics and if MLCC are present, you can get the Pd out also. Just a thought.


----------



## nh6886 (Oct 31, 2016)

Geo,

Without a rotary furnace, what if you sparged it with compressed air to add a little O2 and agitation to the mix? If you set your melter up to tilt like the ones 4Metals posted drawings of you could pour the saturated borax off and add more as needed. 
On question, on the material you leached did you incinerate it first?
I hope you continue to share, as this looks like quite the challenge. 

All the best,
John


----------



## Geo (Oct 31, 2016)

Actually, I am using a small furnace with a A4 salamander crucible to smelt in. I could go bigger with little problem but a tilting furnace may be out of my realm of expertise. I have only ever melted metal and smelting is something I would like to try. The A4 crucible has a capacity of 5.6kgs (12 pounds) of brass or .75 liters of liquid. Since the flux needs room to expand when boiling, I may only get a couple of pounds of metal at a time out of each fusion.
The material I leached was passed through my ball mill for a short time to break up the slag. I didn't include any material that did not contain slag. If I had to guess, I would say that I may have gotten half of the metal leached from the slag. I didn't mill it completely. I was just curious to see if what I had been told was mostly true. This material did not come from anyone off of the forum. I had no idea what to expect. Except for the ceramics and the few gold plated objects, it's hard to identify individual pieces in such a mixed up mess. I did find a couple of rather large contact points that was recognizable. Most of the large chunks is very magnetic and must be mostly iron. The CPU's excludes me from being able to separate any magnetic material before smelting. I had started with the intention of milling everything completely and leaching everything with CuCl2 and then straight melting everything that was left. It may work well enough with the forty pounds because I am set up to run that much metal at once but if I want to be able to do the remaining hundreds of pounds, the chemical route would just be too much to do with any speed plus the cost of acids would eat into the profit.


----------



## kurtak (Oct 31, 2016)

:shock: WOW !!! glad I had you post some pics Geo because its way more of a mess then I imagined from the description in your OP ----- Like Dave - I thought I saw at least part of a kitchen sink in there :lol: 

One thing is for sure --- my original thoughts on how to deal with this after reading your OP have just gone out the window :lol: 

That said - I guess my first question is --- do you know what the original owner used as flux in his failed attempt at smelting ? (&/or can you find out)

Just borax ?

Just soda ash ?

Combination borax/soda ash (&/or possible other additives - like potassium nitrate, fluorspar, cryolite, etc.) ?

Kurt


----------



## 4metals (Oct 31, 2016)

Wow. 

Can you take a sample that you can at least have reasonable confidence of being representative? If you can, take a 1 pound sample and see what basic flux components it takes to get a 1 pound sample molten with a nice fluid flux. Start with borax, soda ash and fluorspar.


----------



## Geo (Nov 1, 2016)

4metals said:


> Wow.
> 
> Can you take a sample that you can at least have reasonable confidence of being representative? If you can, take a 1 pound sample and see what basic flux components it takes to get a 1 pound sample molten with a nice fluid flux. Start with borax, soda ash and fluorspar.


Sounds like a plan.


----------



## Geo (Nov 1, 2016)

Kurt has advised me to mill a reasonable sample and see if the flux is soluble in hot water. Then try dilute HCl. This is just to try and determine what they used for flux because really, it doesn't seem like they used very much of anything in the way of flux. It seems to be just enough to stick everything together, sort of. I haven't been able to reach the man to ask about any flux composition. I'm not sure he could tell me any way. His son is the one that tried to smelt it in a large electric furnace. The material came from the Norfolk Naval base so I am assuming it is something good locked inside. Of coarse I understand what assuming will get you. That's why I would really like to try and figure this one out. I really appreciate any and all help. I am going to start milling a nice large chunk of the material in the morning. I'll try and post some more pictures of the milled and washed material by tomorrow night. Maybe I'll find something that looks more like gold after it's been cleaned up a bit.


----------



## 4metals (Nov 1, 2016)

It seems that, when it comes to fluxing, most use the adage "when in doubt add borax". So Kurt's suggestion, while not something a commercial refiner might do, is very good. Borax will dissolve in very hot water, just keep it boiling for a while and be careful not to pour off any values with the borax water. Don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater!


----------



## jeneje (Nov 1, 2016)

Geo said:


> The material came from the Norfolk Naval base so I am assuming it is something good locked inside.


I am amazed he got the stuff off the base Geo, Norfork used to be a closed base back in it's day. :lol: How many pounds do you have, if you don't mind telling :?:  Most military stuff is good material. Congrats Geo on the find. I hope you get the goodies out.

Ken


----------



## Platdigger (Nov 1, 2016)

I'll concoure with jeneje Geo, this could be a very good problem.


----------



## 4metals (Nov 1, 2016)

Getting the values out of this material when you are working with a #4 crucible size is quite a daunting task. Plus whomever sent you this stuff obviously thought they hit a mother load or they wouldn't have tried to melt the whole lot to begin with. Now you have an un-assayable mess and even with the best intentions and utmost honesty on your part Geo, your yield may not approach the customers expectations. 

Having years of refining experience under my belt, I know it is sometimes difficult to live up to a customer's expectation. As refiners we understand you can only pay out on what comes out and what it cost you to get it out. As customers, the thought process goes something like ..... yeah but I thought.......!

Get a decent sample,(this may be easier said than done!) try to get it molten and in a form that can be poured and assayed, and then have a chat with the customer.


----------



## Geo (Nov 1, 2016)

I did get a reply to my query. The only flux used was borax.


----------



## Geo (Nov 1, 2016)

jeneje said:


> Geo said:
> 
> 
> > The material came from the Norfolk Naval base so I am assuming it is something good locked inside.
> ...


He brought a small bucket all the way from Maine with roughly forty pounds in it. He also brought a few reels of military grade silver plated wire which weighed almost a hundred pounds. He says he has several thousand pounds of the wire. It's coated with Teflon and will be a major pain to incinerate. It will have to be stripped. I did a rough sample and it seems to be around 3% silver by weight. This wire looks like good material for a copper parting cell.


----------



## scrapman1077 (Nov 1, 2016)

The Teflon strips easily .


----------



## Shark (Nov 1, 2016)

> Geo
> This wire looks like good material for a copper parting cell.



It does sound good at 3% silver. If you go this route keep us informed. I am still working slowly prepping various sources of copper for use as a collector material for a cell.


----------



## torscot (Nov 1, 2016)

Geo,

Going back to your original mess. Here is an idea. I process a lot of low grade plated scrap, some gold ores, and some silver ores. Cyanide. You say you have a ball mill. Put your mess in, keep grinding, every once in a while, classify your material, removing everything that has been ground to 200 mesh, anything bigger, throw it back in add more and keep grinding. You can buy classifier trays on Ebay, in the mining section. Once everything has been reduced to that fineness, treat it with cyanide. That you cannot buy that on Ebay though.

I cannot find the link to the process I use for scrap metal, it`s on this forum. I have it printed and it is in my workshop, not here at home. It`s quick and effective. I will find it and post it if you think it is of interest to you. 

I found it. http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24567&hilit=Cyanide

Food for thought. Why smelt all that mess when you can crush it, and extract the values another way. Treat it like low grade ore. Just thinking outside of the box.

Rob.


----------



## Geo (Nov 1, 2016)

Thank you torscot. Everything I deal with is pretty toxic stuff and I don't kid myself in the least that I am slowly killing myself every day I work with it. Ever time I make a mistake, I expose myself to either dangerous fumes or toxic metals. I just can't see myself working with something that one mistake will be the last mistake I ever make. I deal with acids. Acids are just about everywhere I work at any time. There is no place I can safely work with a chemical that will kill you when mixed with acid. I would have to scrape the area clean and start with fresh new equipment before I would feel confident enough to work with cyanide. I am just not tidy enough. I am the first to admit that.


----------



## autumnwillow (Nov 1, 2016)

Watchout for teflon flu. Either you remove that teflon by hand before applying any heat to it or [stt]you digest the entire thing in nitric.[/stt]

Edit to add: A copper cell will be much better assuming the base metal is copper, you can omit removing the teflon in the copper cell as long as you have a rotary cell. Teflon is resistant to chemicals.


----------



## Geo (Nov 1, 2016)

I have a hand made wire stripper that works pretty well. The reels are easy to work with because you can work with one long unbroken piece. A jumbled mess would require more work cutting and starting a new strip very often.


----------



## kurtak (Nov 2, 2016)

Geo said:


> Kurt has advised me to mill a reasonable sample and see if the flux is soluble in hot water.



And quote by 4metals ---------



> It seems that, when it comes to fluxing, most use the adage "when in doubt add borax". So Kurt's suggestion, while not something a commercial refiner might do, is very good.



The reason I suggested this (talked with Geo on the Phone) is because when you look at the pics you can see the material was not pyrolized/incinerated in the first place because I am seeing stuff like pieces of green board, copper wire with the insulation still on it, epoxy chips that are still "epoxy" chips & other colored plastic components

So the first thing I am seeing is that the material needs to be liberated from the slag/flux it is currently encased in (by milling) so it can be properly incinerated - in its current sate the encasement of slag/flux is going to "hinder" proper incineration

Also - there is a lot of flat out "garbage" in the mix (based on our phone talk) so again liberating from the slag/flux will help in being able to remove at least a fair portion of the garbage

But - just liberating it from the slag/flux is not going to be enough because though it will allow for helping to remove a fair portion of the garbage --- if you don't remove/eliminate "as much as possible" of the slag flux - it is going to "hinder" the incineration step - hence suggesting try to dissolve away as much "as possible" the flux/slag --- other wise the slag/flux is going to hinder oxygen getting to it &/or gassing off of the organic volatiles --- it may not prevent incineration - but it will certainly hinder it

4metas also wrote -----------



> Borax will dissolve in very hot water



True - if you are talking about 20 mule team borax - however - once the water in 20 mule team is driven off turning it to borax glass it becomes much less soluble in even hot water (example being borax glass stuck on buttons & bars)

That's where I was hoping the "original" failed attempt at smelting had used a combination of borax & soda ash - as the soda ash will help keep the slag water soluble (which is why I asked Geo if he knew the original flux composition) --- however - because the material was not incinerated in the first place (before attempting to smelt) the organics (plastics) may have gassed off enough of its own chemical composition to change the chemical composition of the borax (glass) to help make it more soluble - so its certainly worth trying to see if hot water will help to eliminate as much as possible of the current slag

Also - concerning the milling - because of the large chunks of the material - milling (in a cement mixer ball mill) may be a bit of a problem due to the balls not wanting to lift up & around in the mill to come "crashing down" on the material to get a "good crushing" effect --- so you may need to install a "lift bar" in the mill to help lift the balls higher so they can drop with force to better effect "crushing"

If you didn't scrap/throw out the mixing fins that came with the cement mixer - install "one" of them & see if that helps --- if you don't still have the mixing fins - you can drill & bolt in a piece of angle iron for a lift bar 

I sure wish I lived closer to you Geo - because I would certainly let you use my big furnace which takes a #40 crucible --- with only a #4 crucible I am afraid all you are going to be able to do is some sample/testing to get an "idea" of if the material is worth further pursuing

Kurt


----------



## kurtak (Nov 2, 2016)

Geo said:


> He brought a small bucket all the way from Maine with roughly forty pounds in it. He also brought a few reels of military grade silver plated wire which weighed almost a hundred pounds.



This would be a perfect collector for smelting the rest of the "original failed smelt" --- provided we can work out getting that material to workable state within your means

Kurt


----------



## nickvc (Nov 2, 2016)

kurtak said:


> Geo said:
> 
> 
> > He brought a small bucket all the way from Maine with roughly forty pounds in it. He also brought a few reels of military grade silver plated wire which weighed almost a hundred pounds.
> ...



Now that shows real insight Kurt and I like the idea :G


----------



## kurtak (Nov 5, 2016)

Geo

Any headway on this project ?

Kurt


----------



## Geo (Nov 6, 2016)

kurtak said:


> Geo
> 
> Any headway on this project ?
> 
> Kurt


I had to take a break. I had a couple of doctors appointments on top of a horrible toothache. The good news out of it is my lung capacity has improved from 34% back in June to 58% a few days ago. I did hear back from the guy that brought the material. He said the only flux used was borax. Ill be back at it tomorrow milling what I can. If This tooth lets up and I can get to see the dentist, I may be able to work on it all week. If I can't see the dentist or it keeps throbbing, I may not be able to do much. I want to mill what will mill and boil the material in water for a couple of days. I may be able to remove some of the borax that way. If not, I will put it in a plastic bucket and heat it in 10% sulfuric acid. I am feeling more optimistic about it now.


----------



## Platdigger (Nov 7, 2016)

You probably all ready know this but you might try some warm salt water on that tooth until you can get to see a dentist Geo.
Worked a couple a times for me.


----------



## anachronism (Nov 7, 2016)

Hi Geo

With regards to your "original mess" Lou was absolutely bang on the money. It would probably take less time and expense to build yourself a rotary furnace than it will take to begin processing that mess in other ways. 

Jon


----------



## autumnwillow (Nov 8, 2016)

Hey Geo whats up with your lung capacity issue? I think you should also consider this a lot. Take extra precautions in everything you do. Your life is more worth it than your refining earnings.


----------



## Geo (Nov 8, 2016)

autumnwillow said:


> Hey Geo whats up with your lung capacity issue? I think you should also consider this a lot. Take extra precautions in everything you do. Your life is more worth it than your refining earnings.


It's a rather long story. In 2010, I had a bad case of pneumonia. A CT scan revealed I had "multiple pulmonary nodules". I had been pretty sick for some time prior not being able to do much physically. After seeing a pulmonologist, he explained that I had what appeared to be hundreds of centimetrical pulmonary nodules meaning that none of them were larger than a centimeter in diameter. The 3D CT scan of my lungs looks like I have been shot in the chest with a shotgun. When it was first discovered, the notion that it was cancer was very plausible. My lung capacity was such that removing a portion for biopsy was extremely dangerous. The doctor contacted the local radiologist to see if he could get a biopsy with a small catheter. He said that all of the masses that were on the outside edges was too small. So the only way to get a sample was to go in and take out a small slice of lung tissue. Not having insurance at the time, a PET scan was out of the question. The doctor said that if we could establish that I had the nodules previously, we could almost rule out cancer. Three months after leaving the hospital and facing the prospect of dying from the same thing that killed my mother and worrying myself to the point of exhaustion, I was lying in bed trying to go to sleep and sat bolt upright. I remembered going to the Decatur General Hospital ER one night in 2005 because I couldn't breath good and the company nurse said my BP was too high. They did chest xrays and a CT scan. I was worried about my job and was in a rush to return to work. I got up from bed and called the contact number for my doctor. He called back about fifteen minutes later and told me that DGH had my records from that night and to meet him in his office the next morning. The hospital had destroyed the actual images but the ER doctors notes revealed "multiple pulmonary nodules". If they told me about it at the ER that night, I don't remember. Seems like that would be something that would be hard to forget. Anyway. it established that whatever it was, I had it five years previously. The doctor said he was 99.9% sure it was not lung cancer. He wanted me to go to cancer treatment centers of America anyway but I declined. In the four months from the pneumonia and finding the records from DGH, I had applied for and was granted my disability which included medicare and medicaid. Even though It was never proven exactly what it is, it was a safe bet to assume what it wasn't. It could be copper dust from my years cutting electric motors for a living. It could be bacterial or fungal from breathing air from a steel tank during all the years I made a living diving. It could be from the damage caused by making nitric acid from sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate for years when I was prospecting with my father. I have never smoked a cigarette in my life but everyone around me has, including my mother and my wife. My mother died of lung cancer in 1997. My wife has since quit smoking. She has been a lifetime smoker but only uses a vape now. My struggle with lung disease and trying to refine is well documented in all my post. A lung capacity of 58% is a huge improvement and I credit the use of a fume hood with that improvement.


----------



## autumnwillow (Nov 8, 2016)

Ahh. My grandmother has interstitial lung disease, I think this is similar to what you have but you are very lucky since you are recovering from it. My grandmother isn't. I guess its because of her age at 83.

Back to the topic. What happened to the lot? I would bring it to someone who has a large furnace if I were you or better yet build a large furnace instead as this can be used for pyrolysis, incineration and smelting/melting.


----------



## snoman701 (Dec 31, 2016)

Any headway on this?

If you are still having trouble getting this milled, I'd consider freezing with liquid nitrogen and manually breaking it up smaller with a 2" piece of steel bar dropped in to a heavy walled cylinder such as a welding gas cylinder that has been cut off.

You need to make yourself a jaw crusher! 

Short of that, I'd heat very small batches of it up to dull red, then dip in water to cool rapidly....lots of times, with super duper care of the resulting steam explosion that's going to happen. Following that, ball milling will reduce the glass to powder in no time. 

Might also look for a couple of shotput balls to put in the mill.


----------



## Geo (Jan 1, 2017)

I ran the material through my ball mill. It still has some pretty big chunks that I'll break up with a hammer and run it through the mill again. I did melt a sample of a bunch random metal globs. I tried to get as close to one pound as I could. The melted sample was taken to Elemetal in Franklin Tn. so I could get an XRF reading on it. We couldn't print it out without a sale but the content was everywhere. 72% Cu, 7% Ag, 5% Fe, 4% Sn with +/- 1% of a long list of other metals. If it was 1% gold, that's still close to 4.5g per pound of gold. That's not exceptional but when your talking about a fifty five gallon barrel full, who knows. I am going to refine the sample to prove that weight and then I'll know more about it. 

https://youtu.be/exMLO4iwslc


----------

