# Replacing abrasive chemicals by electrical simulation



## pinwheel (Jan 18, 2009)

I am interested in this patent I read recently that uses electric power and sine waves to tone down the requirements for abrasive acids in AR. The results should be that you can do the same thing as AR with less corrosive chemicals. 

I think it might be possible to replace the chemicals and use distilled water and frequency to shake out the metals.

Is anyone here researching down this path?

Here is a patent reference for the basic technique:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6986192.html

The idea I have is to simulate single or complex materials by locating their resonance or what is generally known as their resonant frequency.

The resonant frequency of gold is 1.729 MHz

To simulate this would require some sort of synthesizer modified to produce the sine waves externally through a catch and release mechanism rather than through a terminated wire lead as is normal.

Combining frequencies would require much math work.

This can apply to many other things. For instance if one substituted this "external synth" in a water submerged circuit for platinum in a catalytic converter one should be able to simulate the green effects without actually using platinum.

OK maybe this is nuts, but I would like to meet others who have this stuck in their heads too as I know it is not exclusive to my own.


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## Noxx (Jan 18, 2009)

Now that's interesting ! 



> The present invention springs from the discovery that mild acids could be utilized to shear undesired metals away from desired precious metals that have been plated onto circuit board runners or contacts. This shearing action occurs at a high rate when metal scrap segments are immersed in mild acid and excited by application of an electromagnetic field at specific frequencies and power levels. These frequencies and power levels are based on the end metal desired and the metals contained in the scrap and the acid utilized. When mild acid saturated with copper sulfate and loaded with scrap metals is subjected to an electromagnetic field at the appropriate frequency and power levels copper and nickel molecules are sheared rapidly and absorbed into solution, leaving only the desired metal, such as gold, in a 99.5% pure flake which can be skimmed off the surface of the solution or filtered from the solution. The captured metal flake is then rinsed in water and denatured alcohol, compressed, melted and poured into bars or nuggets for further use or sale.


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## Lou (Jan 19, 2009)

Hate to be a stickler, but do you mean _stimulate _instead of simulate and _corrosive _instead of abrasive (that would hold true if aqua regia were a mixture of carborundum and other abrasives).



All in all, an interesting patent...but of course pretty vague. I wonder what type of electromagnetic irradiation it is. 

Microwave assisted and ultrasonic digestion are frequently used and that would be no invention. I wonder how theirs is different.


Lou


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## pinwheel (Jan 19, 2009)

> Hate to be a stickler, but do you mean stimulate instead of simulate and corrosive instead of abrasive (that would hold true if aqua regia were a mixture of carborundum and other abrasives).



No problem. I am a mad scientist, not a real scientist. Corrosive is the correct word and I did mean specifically to use the word simulate and that is exactly where the new in the idea applies. I am speaking about atomic excitation or what is known as nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_magnetic_resonance

This chart shows the NMR of elements:

http://www.chem.tamu.edu/services/NMR/periodic/index.shtml

I am talking about using vibration or specifically electromagnetic resonance to either shake out (repel away from) or attract elements. This may be actually called something different.

The theory being that you can simulate an element or complex chemical with vibration alone and trick another element into reacting accordingly.

For example when a high pitched acoustic resonance encounters a crystal glass, the glass can lose its atomic integrity and shatter.

This should be no different than using the simulated electromagnetic resonance of Nitric to detach gold from a base metal.

Wired into a switch and using a base of water and the resonance of nitrogen dioxide (enclosed in a case or possibly a vacuum it should be possible to simulate AR.

I do admit that I could be wrong about this, but the patent itself does lend some credence to the idea however vague it may be. I am sure there are others.


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## lazersteve (Jan 19, 2009)

Pinwheel,

I have not read the patent, but some obvious concerns immediately come to my mind.

I feel you are going to have great difficulty in achieving success with this experiment as not only must you have the proper ratio of atoms in a compound (number of resonant bonds), but you must also have the proper ions, electronic configurations, and exchange mechanisms in place for a reaction to proceed. What you are postulating is to produce a 'fake' AR structure based upon reproducing the same resonance pattern as the bond lengths in AR. The bond lengths of the compound are not the only consideration in a chemical reaction.

There are also electromagnetic and thermodynamic forces to consider when dealing with reactions. These thermodynamic forces affect the resonance lengths of the bonds in the parent compound and also affect their interaction with other molecules.

You may be able to mirror the resonant frequencies of the bond lengths in the compound AR for example, but you will be hard pressed to get your artificial resonance to behave electronically as real AR would in solution. You must also take into account the resonance effects of the solute when creating your 'virtual AR'.

I would liken your 'virtual molecule' to a group of ripples on a pond that look like a flower. Perhaps you could produce an perfectly formed flower, perfect in every detail of shape and size; but what would your 'virtual flower' smell like, what color would it be, and how would it respond to sunlight and water?

My point is that a compound is much more than the physical resonant frequencies of the bonds of the individual atoms that the molecule is made of.

I think shattering a glass is a very crude example of creating a resonant 'version' of a compound. As the glass has a set resonant frequency dependent upon a few discreet variables, whereas a compound is composed of many resonant frequencies aligned at various angles. These frequencies are all dependent upon many internal and external forces and conditions (temperature, pressure, etc). 

Typically, the driving mechanism of a dissolving reaction as used in refining is dependent upon an intermediate ion and not the base compound in the solution. For this reason, you would need to be able to create 'virtual ions' to perform as you expect. In the case of dissolving gold and PGMs, I would venture to say that trying to produce the chlorine resonance pattern would be a good starting point. This should be less complex (maybe ?) than producing a complete compound like AR. Of course, you are still faced with the task of 'ionizing' your 'virtual chlorine'.

Interesting topic, but very hard to design an experiment for.


Steve


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## Platdigger (Jan 19, 2009)

I think the only "resonant frequencies" they are talking about here is that of the particular base metal that you are going after.

Which would be basic elements, not compounds like acids.
Randy


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## butcher (Jan 19, 2009)

well bombarding these atoms with the right frequency at the right condition seems would be hard since, most are not just one type of single atom and sounds like an expieriment a group of goverment funded scientists could spend a fortune of tax dollars on to get a few grams of gold. maybe the military can make a weapon with it ?
but, I have a large sonic washer plate with about 30 large crystals, and the generator for them, now. Acid Peroxide or HCL/Clorox and shaking them atoms with this sonic washer does sound like an expieriment even a backyard chemist like me may find very useful, to lower my acid usage and waste, shaking off oxidized layers of metals, maybe when weather warms Ill try it out.


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## pinwheel (Jan 20, 2009)

Randy/LazerSteve:



> I think the only "resonant frequencies" they are talking about here is that of the particular base metal that you are going after.
> 
> Which would be basic elements, not compounds like acids.
> Randy



My theory is that you would use the NMR of a particular element. These are all known things that can be gained from the link above.

Now to go from an element to a mineral or complex mixture you have to take into consideration many things. Since I am not a math genius I will try to do my best in describing this.

If you want to create a simulation of a complex mineral or gas etc you have to obtain the NMR of each element contained in the complex structure. Then you have to consider your external influences and your base. Then you have to take all these things into account and create a working formula to get the right mix. This could possibly be realized with a circuit for each "thing" or one complex circuit based on some formula considering each thing in sum. I think harmonics could come into play there.

The base in my estimation should be highly distilled water. This should eliminate the majority of base effects such as mineral content in tap water etc.

External influences might include light, air, sound, vibration, color or more. Each of these influences either has to be accounted for in the formulas used, or eliminated physically. Some things can be eliminated easier than others.

I can theorize that a 3ft thick granite slab would eliminate vibration. A black painted box would eliminate light and color, insulation for sound and vacuum for atmosphere.

OK this seems like a lot of work, but I suppose what is best is to spend the time to construct a basic experiment to prove the idea one way or the other.

It seems to me that the patent itself is using ranges. Maybe getting close is good enough. The patent mentions a weak acid and not no acid. My idea would eliminate acid if proven possible.

Anyway, LazerSteve, I thank you for the post and will study your reply further.


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## mlgdave (Mar 9, 2011)

has anyone figured out how powerful of an ultrasonic to use? I have heard that you can just mix and melt multi karat jewelry, shot it and digest in AR in an ultrasonic and do away with inquartation? Question is how many watts for the ultrasonic and how many watts for the heater? I know that I will place my beaker inside a water bath inside the cleaner and not put acid directly in the ultrasonic. Has anyone done much experimenting? I would think in production mode an ultrasonic could save a lot of cash in the long run?

mlgdave


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## nickvc (Mar 9, 2011)

The life of the ultrasonic wouldn't be that great as most models for jewellers are made of stainless and the AR would soon damage the tank and no doubt the innards and they cost around $500 for a reasonable one and can be much more for a large model.


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## pinwheel (Mar 9, 2011)

someone just came in my place showing me photos of a plasma process to separate metals. hmmm


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## mdfrye (Sep 25, 2013)

Pinwheel - Your post is two years old. Since that time have you come across information regarding anyone using plasma in a rotating magnetic field to collect precious metals?


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## pgms4me (Sep 25, 2013)

The resonant frequency idea has been used to separate hydrogen from water more efficiently Than just electricity by itself. Seems this could work in a very mild AR solution to save on some of the chemical cost,but it would take a lot of experimentation with variation in pulse frequencies to make it work most efficiently in each and every case. A given resonant frequency and power would be different for each alloy your dealing with,let alone electrode size and spacing would be critical to keep the power level down. there could also be some not so good gas and undesirable chemical compounds generated. Good experiment for someone with a properly equipped lab and the proper test equipment so results could be documented to get repeatable results. i dont think it could work to be an easy profitable venture for hobby refiners like us .--just my two cents worth


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## chlaurite (Sep 25, 2013)

Keep in mind that issuance of a patent doesn't prove the concept works. Although they have officially disallow them and have gotten better at spotting them under various disguises, the USPTO grants around half a dozen patents a year on _perpetual motion machines_ under various other names - Yet, ΔSuniverse remains comfortably greater than zero. :lol: 

Also, you may not really need to go to such extremes simply to speed up a weak AR - much of the time required comes from silly crap like diffusion rates and occlusion of reaction sites by precipitants/gasseous byproducts (aka "scale" and "bubbles"). 

Put another way - Using nothing more innovative than heat and a teflon magnetic stir-bar will _drastically_ speed up most of the processes we deal with here on GRF. 8)


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## Traveller11 (Sep 25, 2013)

I don't know if it is at all related but, I recall reading about a process for dissociating water into hydrogen and oxygen that was supposed to consume far less energy than the traditional electrolysis method. It seems they found that vibrations of 600 Hz would cause water to separate into H2 and O2. This was quite a few years ago and I've never heard anything of it since, likely due to the non-emergence of the so called "Hydrogen Economy".


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## butcher (Sep 25, 2013)

Of all the new mousetrap inventions that are constantly being invented, we still use the same old one that works best.


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## g_axelsson (Sep 26, 2013)

Traveller11 said:


> I don't know if it is at all related but, I recall reading about a process for dissociating water into hydrogen and oxygen that was supposed to consume far less energy than the traditional electrolysis method. It seems they found that vibrations of 600 Hz would cause water to separate into H2 and O2. This was quite a few years ago and I've never heard anything of it since, likely due to the non-emergence of the so called "Hydrogen Economy".


You can't get away from adding the energy somewhere or else you could build a perpetuum mobile. It fails the reality check.

If someone could do it someone would have made a hughe amount of money by selling them and as it isn't done it's only fake.

The natural vibration frequencies of the water molecule is between 1.5*10^12 to 7.5*10^14 Hz so 600 Hz is basically standing still for the molecule.
Reference : http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html (nice animations)

Göran


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## Traveller11 (Sep 26, 2013)

g_axelsson said:


> Traveller11 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if it is at all related but, I recall reading about a process for dissociating water into hydrogen and oxygen that was supposed to consume far less energy than the traditional electrolysis method. It seems they found that vibrations of 600 Hz would cause water to separate into H2 and O2. This was quite a few years ago and I've never heard anything of it since, likely due to the non-emergence of the so called "Hydrogen Economy".
> ...



You could be right. This was from an article in Popular Science from the 80's.


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## Harold_V (Sep 26, 2013)

mlgdave said:


> has anyone figured out how powerful of an ultrasonic to use? I have heard that you can just mix and melt multi karat jewelry, shot it and digest in AR in an ultrasonic and do away with inquartation? Question is how many watts for the ultrasonic and how many watts for the heater? I know that I will place my beaker inside a water bath inside the cleaner and not put acid directly in the ultrasonic. Has anyone done much experimenting? I would think in production mode an ultrasonic could save a lot of cash in the long run?
> 
> mlgdave


It would be my opinion that the ultrasonic does nothing more than dislodge the silver chloride,which slowly builds an isolating barrier over the shot, preventing dissolution. You can achieve the same results by simply reducing the size of the shot to very small proportions. In fact, if memory serves, 4metals has discussed this on the board. 

You can prove this principle by processing filings from the jeweler's bench, which is what I used to do on a daily basis. They are fine enough to be fully dissolved before a barrier can form on the surface. I incinerated, screened (to remove large pieces of gold alloy, which would not dissolve directly in AR), went through the filings with a magnet (to remove the always present iron filings) and then did a preliminary digest with heated dilute nitric. A rinse with tap water and then full dissolution with AR was more than adequate to dissolve all of the solids, leaving behind a generous amount of silver chloride. That should make it obvious why my choice was tap water for the rinse---it made no difference, so why waste distilled water?

Because silver that was recovered from the nitric wash was always quite dirty, it is the only place where my choice for making a recovery was to create silver chloride instead of cementing with copper. The silver chloride was easily cleansed of contamination before reducing to elemental silver.

Harold


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## bswartzwelder (Sep 26, 2013)

This sounds like a really interesting concept. Ultrasonic vibration is used with great success to weld plastic pieces together. Until it's either proven (or disproven) maybe ultrasonic vibration can be used to break things down. Jewelers use ultrasonics to clean dirty pieces of jewelry because it works and can get into almost any area. I would think a variable frequency square wave generator may even work better than a sine wave. Square waves are comprised of the base frequency and ALL odd integer harmonic frequencies. Maybe a saw tooth wave form with a very fast rise time and slow (relative to the rise time) decay may even produce the desired results. Personally, I think someone may be looking "outside" of the box. If this won't work for one reason or another, maybe it will point in the direction of something that will work.

It would be a refreshing change of pace from having to use large amounts of concentrated acids, but it would not be free. I doubt the electronics would pose much of a problem since we can now produce signals at almost any frequency and at power levels that were unheard of in the 1950's. For centuries, they said man would never set foot on the moon. I think one of these days, they just might. :<)


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## Lou (Sep 26, 2013)

Sonication does indeed work for digesting karat.


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## chlaurite (Sep 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> Sonication does indeed work for digesting karat.


So, that then leaves us with one slight problem for trying this out...

Anyone know of a relatively cheap ultrasonic bath made of acid-resistant plastic?


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## g_axelsson (Sep 27, 2013)

Test with a glass beaker inside the ultrasonic tank.

Göran


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