# Has anyone built large AP tanks?



## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 10, 2012)

Has anyone built a large AP tank?

I am running 6- 5 gallon buckets that are highly concentrated and I will have to expand the solution soon. I was using one double pump for each bucket, and continued after I attached air stones, however it's working so well I think I only need one air stone per bucket. So I am planning on expanding my solutions into new 5 gallon buckets so that I have a total of 12, 1 air pump for each two buckets.

I currently have them sitting on the cement floor, I am thinking of making a rack with a spill capture at the bottom out of polypropylene plastic sheet so that the buckets are held in place by a hole, and I can mount them 6 on the bottom, and 6 at table height in rows of three. The bottom ones on casters so that the entire bottom shelf can be rolled out and accessed. 

On the inside of the bucket, to maximize the surface area affected by the AP, I used a 1/2 inch PVC pipe which is actually 1 inch around. I then took a slightly large PVC pipe that fits over it and moves freely. I put a plug on one end of the 1/2 pvc pipe, cut it so that it can fit under the lid of the 5 gallon bucket. Then I cut the large PVC that fits over the 1/2 pvc into 1/2 inch lengths to use as spacers. Then with a drill press that has a shop vac hooked up to it, I drill a 1 inch hole with a hole cutting saw. In this way I can string the boards on the piece of PVC pipe one on top of the other without them touching. It works awesome, but not all boards will fit in the tank.

Before I go through all the trouble, I am wondering if anyone has built large AP tanks, and how they did it. Having 5 gallon buckets works great for some types of material, but some things need a larger tank or must be cut in pieces which is something I want to avoid if possible. I am also using 4 polypropylene plating tanks that are 36x36x8 which work awesome for larger boards, but are expensive and I can only do so many boards at a time in them. I am looking for something that is safe, large enough to handle big boards, has a lid and some way of standing the boards or keeping them separate so that the solution can move freely around all parts of the board.

Also, has anyone found small submersible acid resistant pumps? I know, tall order, I am using a submersible fish tank water agitator, and so far it's holding up, but I think I need something made specifically for acid.

Scott


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## mjgraham (Jul 10, 2012)

I don't hardly have as many buckets going as you but I have often wondered how to make the best use of things, I built this the other day out of PVC sheet and rods to hold memory sticks, it worked pretty well, was just a little bigger than I though but it did work ok,holds 44 sticks easily you can stack a 3rd row but they often fall out. I though I was ready for a larger batch but I found there is always a lot to learn  of course the sides are 1/4" x 4" PVC sheet the rods are 1/4" just ran them into a die to thread them, cut some 1/4" x 1" and drilled and taped it for nuts.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you for posting pictures.

I like how many boards you can load in your design, yet still get solution circulating around.

What are you using for your AP tank?

Scott


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 10, 2012)

A 15 gal tank packed to the rim will hold about 75 lbs of fingers with a dual bubbler used on it and it does a great job.


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## mjgraham (Jul 10, 2012)

Well on mine that fits in a 5 gallon bucket, I get about 40 ram sticks in, doing the whole stick, I sometimes think I overthink stuff, got good flow, make a bubbler out of a piece of hard tube drilled some 0.2mm holes in it, but I think the air stone would be better, I have a couple hundered ram stick to do but been holding off , the AP works good but on the fingers and gets the copper out of the vias through the board but getting them out of the board seems to be a little harder without working on them one by one. Still pretty early on in my level of experience too. My main problem is somewhere to work. The bad thing about doing whole ram sticks is there is a lot of excess copper to eat up, but hey.

75 pounds of fingers, that is a bunch!


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## publius (Jul 10, 2012)

why not use one of these? http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...P8T4iKHsez6wHpmv36Bg&ved=0CF8Q9QEwCg&dur=4171


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 10, 2012)

publius said:


> why not use one of these? http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...P8T4iKHsez6wHpmv36Bg&ved=0CF8Q9QEwCg&dur=4171



That would probably work. But I like working with the tank. I can move it where I want to with little problem when it is full, And it is a lot easier to work with a tall container than a wide container. I also don't have evaportaion loss of solution with the tank.


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## glondor (Jul 10, 2012)

Hey Scott. just a thought. How about large coleman type coolers. http://www.google.ca/imgres?start=71&hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&biw=1536&bih=783&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=Zz9zpbKShMEjyM:&imgrefurl=http://www.fullonfishing.co.nz/contents/en-us/d844_COleman_Chilly_Bins.html&docid=87Jc0crj0nK28M&imgurl=http://www.fullonfishing.co.nz/contents/media/coleman_95l_uvx_marine_cool.jpg&w=624&h=465&ei=ztr8T57TO6LV0QGSuIHbBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=557&vpy=168&dur=4001&hovh=194&hovw=260&tx=107&ty=87&sig=112862279529287805485&page=3&tbnh=135&tbnw=179&ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:71,i:62


The plastic ones of course.


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## Smack (Jul 10, 2012)

I have my chemicals stored on one of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-2-Drum-4-Drum-Interlocking-Hazmat-Spill-Containment-Pallets-Low-Profile-/320817706977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab239b7e1
got it at an auction for around a hundo.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 10, 2012)

Murphy's Law,

Process something in it and the drain plug will fail. :evil:


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 10, 2012)

You know, a cooler doesn't sound like a half bad idea, if the plastic would hold up to the acid. If you have one with a drain, it would make filtering out the foils easier.

I am using 5 gallon buckets, and a few of these:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=31507

The plating tanks work great for large PC boards, I don't have to break them up. I use one for just stripping base metals, and another to foil the gold. I was thinking about using something like this:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=32456&catid=960&clickid=searchresults

I think what I am going to do is take a 55 gallon DI water barrel that is made out of dense polypropylene and has a fused lid. I bought some for accumulating metals like Al to later sell to a scrap yard. I had to saw the tops off because the lids are fused/welded to the barrel. The only access to the barrel is a small hole for the water pump to be inserted into. I was thinking of taking one, turning it over on it's side and then cutting an opening across the entire length that then could be hinged, as a lid. Using the hole in the fused lid for a drain/ball valve, to use as a drain. Placing a acid resistant pump inside the barrel to act as an agitator, and so that the solution flows around the material. To recover the foils I would attach a filter bag to the submersible pump outlet, and let the pump circulate the water through the filter bag, recovering the gold foils like a vacuum might. Pumping air into the tank is the real issue. I don't want to use 50 small air stones and 50 air lines with as many air pumps. 

Scott


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 10, 2012)

Smack said:


> I have my chemicals stored on one of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-2-Drum-4-Drum-Interlocking-Hazmat-Spill-Containment-Pallets-Low-Profile-/320817706977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab239b7e1
> got it at an auction for around a hundo.



That's pretty slick...

I am just using a plastic Koi pond at the moment.

Scott


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## glondor (Jul 11, 2012)

I use one of these when i want air agitation. It will put a good boil in a 1/2 filled 55 gal barrel. 1/8 in hose open. http://www.biostad.com/product.aspx?id=405114&desc=Schuco-Mist_5711-102_Pump

For your needs sounds like you need a shop compressor. Small hose and no air stones.

How about a high volume peristaltic pump? 

Remember, for A/R you want the air entrainment, not just the fluid flow.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 11, 2012)

I deal with a lot of these issues in my salt water aquariums. I don't use airstones in my tanks, instead when I pump the water from my reef filter, back into the tank, I have it flow over a slope. Anytime water flows over a fall, it takes air into the tank. It works a lot better than air stones. If I find the right submersible pump then I'll create a way for the solution to be pumped over a slope and back into the tank. The bubbles produced would be much smaller, and stay in the solution longer as well as creating agitation with the fluid moving back into the tank. I don't know why your post made me think of how I do it in my aquariums, I am not sure why I didn't think of it before, but I think this would be the very best way of introducing air into an AP tank.

Matter of fact, I can also adapt another thing I use in my salt water tanks. A pre filter, if I have a pump in a sump, and have the solution enter a pre-filter before moving to the sump, any foils that are agitated into solution would be caught in the pre filter.

I think I'm going to play with this a bit on a small scale and see what I could up with. I think it would be fairly inexpensive, and create a situation where you would not have to filter the solution with funnels, etc.

Scott


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## Geo (Jul 12, 2012)

a very low tech way that i do pins and small boards that pack close together. i bought a HDPE colander thats too big to fit in a bucket and cut it so that it is a snug fit. a bucket is larger at the top and tapers as it goes down. i put the airstone in first and then the colander.i load my material in the colander. the air has no other path but to travel up through the material. you really dont want to put more than a pound or a little over a pound of copper in 3 gallons of AP at once or you could get a lot of white copper chloride crystals formed.


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## acpeacemaker (Sep 29, 2012)

What about a large grain/feed bin for cattle. They are very heavy duty and come with lids. I bought a couple hundred a few years back for various common scrap at about $3.00 a piece . I've found farmers selling them on craigslist quite a bit and they do hold up to a/p. Just giving another option.


Andrew


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## etack (Sep 29, 2012)

hey Scot what about this.

A large drum 55 gal with removable lid with a plastic ball valve at the bottom. if you have a vacuum pump you can use the exhaust to blow air though an aerator PVC pipe cap pointing up with holes on top. it would be best to have a false bottom with a rod attracted to remove or agitate the feed stock. Like in the Tupperware pickle containers.

false bottom could be a laundry basket with holes drilled/melted in the bottom handle PVC pipe with a bulkhead fitting. you could run your air line down it. or use it as the aerator with the cap on the bottom with holes on the sides. If you could find some way to make it go up and down with the air pressure and make it burp out the air as it does.

just some thoughts

Eric


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## Geo (Sep 29, 2012)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgxMqM42n6A&feature=plcp[/youtube]


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## grance (Sep 29, 2012)

Check out northern tool they have farm chemical and fule tanks poly 30 gallon to 2000 gallon 

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200338319_200338319


Cant get the url to work but what ever you get the idea


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## acpeacemaker (Sep 29, 2012)

Geo is that you? Bare handed, finger right into the cake. :shock:


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## Palladium (Sep 29, 2012)

55 Gallon PTFE drum with removable lid.( $20 second hand used / $100 new ). Filter sock $10. Other stuff $50. These can be made small and portable. When used right you can't free the thing fast enough. Or make your own variation.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=11181&p=110386&hilit=micron+gallon#p110386


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## Geo (Sep 30, 2012)

yea, thats me. i do apologize to any new members. that is not the correct way to handle material such as that. when i started the camera, i had no idea i was even going to show the foils, so it was a spur of the moment thing. on a side note, anyone that has touched AP solution knows it stains the skin and if not removed can kill the skin in the area of contact. normal soap makes a sticky gooey mess out of it. one product i have found will remove the stain and all traces of the copper. its called Oxi Clean.


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## acpeacemaker (Oct 1, 2012)

I think it's very ironic my neighbor had these in her garage sale today. Very shortly after I read this post. She had about 15 and my budget would only allow 4. But still they were only $10. These are smaller than a 55 gal, maybe the next size down? She wanted $15 for the 55's but the lids were flimsy.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Oct 1, 2012)

This is what I have set up...

I have a 110 tank with AP, I have long ceramic air stones pushing air into the bottom of the tank. I am using submersible pumps, I had to remove the axle and coat with plastic before using, I check them each day for corrosion and have seen none as of yet, these are used at the 4 corners to keep the solution moving in a circular pattern through the tank. I have a gravity filter set up to pass through a polypropylene sponge (thank you Lou), this captures the larger gold foils. It is then fed into a 30 gallon reef tank filter that is also made of Plexi. This has a acid resistant pump that sucks the solution through a series of three poly filters. I have yet to see any gold in the third filter, but the first two do collect a lot of finer gold foil. The Copper II Chloride is then pumped back into the tank by the acid pump, where it is pushed into the tank from the surface so that it introduces more oxygen into the solution, and keeps the solution moving around in the tank.

When the filters become so saturated that it makes a difference in the GPH I am moving, I shut off the pumps, remove the poly sponge filters/felt filters, and replace them with new ones. I then put the poly filters in a reaction vessel with AR. They come out totally white again and ready to replace the pregnant filters in the AP tank. It works amazingly well. I am thinking about making one for a sulfuric cell as well so it can be used continuously without having to stop, settle, filter before you can continue to process. But this will be far more involved, and take learning a few new tricks to make it work I think. But for AP, it is working great so far.

I am using plastic clips with poly cord that hang from two long plastic pips above. This allows me to clip onto whatever it is I am foiling gold off of. I put the material in the left side of the tank, and as I remove the ones from the right side, I move the material down ever closer to the right side of the tank. This allows the material to be hit by the circulating AP at different points. By the time it makes it to the right hand side it is totally stripped.

The only consumable (cost) is in electricity, I am planning on hooking it up to solar cells in the future so that it will not cost anything to operate at all.

I am in the process of moving, so the tank is coming apart soon. I am going to siphon from the tank into 55 gallon barrels already set up in a truck, then do the same to put it back in the tank once I move. When I get it all set up again I'll take pictures and video. The system works really well, I do have a little crazing on the plexi itself, but it's nothing I haven't seen before in some of my salt tanks, and it hasn't weakened the structural integrity of the tank at all.

Scott


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## Sodbuster (Oct 14, 2012)

A water softener brine / salt barrel mite be usable as an AP tank. 
They are a little thinner, but seem to hold up to 200 lb of salt with no trouble. 
I think most are about 30 gallon capacity and made of poly, with good fitting lids.

Also in an old softener resin/rosin cylinder it will have a dip tube to the bottom of the fiberglass cylinder that should have a fine mesh / slotted PVC basket that may make a good aerator already attached to a 4' piece of 1/2-3/4" PVC pipe. 

http://tinyurl.com/9lv3l9n

Just a thought

Ray


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## Sodbuster (Oct 14, 2012)

Maybe this link will work.

http://www.google.com/search?q=water+softener+brine+tank&hl=en&prmd=imvnsfd&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&;ei=FjZ6UI7oBZPUyQHZ6oBw&sqi=2&ved=0CGEQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=527

Ray


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## Geo (Oct 14, 2012)

actually, any large HDP plastic container with a loose fitting cover to keep out insects and rain water will work. if you want fume control, you will have to get a container with a tighter fitting lid so that exhaust ports can be fashioned into it. ive been toying with the idea of running an exhaust pipe to the bottom of a drum filled with limestone rocks and let the fumes pass through the limestone on its was out of the second drum. if you use fairly large stone, you would never need to change it out or replace it.that much limestone will soak up a lot of acidic vapors.


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## srlaulis (Nov 2, 2012)

I was thinking about using one of these for my AP containers. The spigot would make it a lot easier to drain the solution. I wonder if it would clog easy? Has anyone else used a setup like this or thought about trying?

http://www.amazon.com/Gallon-Bottling-Bucket-Spigot-Beer/dp/B000E62H8I


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## etack (Nov 2, 2012)

I use one like it when I have a lot of liquid that needs to settle. The bottling spigot is sold at brew stores for around 2.00-3.00 so go that rout its a .75in hole I believe.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bottling+valve&hl=en&tbm=shop&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=-xKUUPOtLOnm0gGmyoHoBw&ved=0CA4Q_AUoBQ&biw=1600&bih=785#hl=en&tbm=shop&sclient=psy-ab&q=bottling+Spigot&oq=bottling+Spigot&gs_l=serp.3..0.63342.63342.0.64537.1.1.0.0.0.0.90.90.1.1.0...0.0...1c.2.pRHLpN_LYUU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=1c4a9ad74aefed03&bpcl=37189454&biw=1600&bih=785

This is online but around you they will be cheaper. Also on Craigslist you might get one for free. If you lived by me I have some old dirty ones that I replaced sitting around.

Eric


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