# Pouring gold problem



## kg281281 (Jun 10, 2009)

I have a kilo bar of pure gold that has been in my family for a while, and I want to divide it up between my 3 kids. I am going to buy a cruciable and some graphite molds, but I dont have any experiance in pouring gold. If I melt pure gold and pour it into 3 molds will it make shiney gold bars, or will they look ugly? Please give me some advice! Thanks everyone!


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

Hi KG and welcome to the forum.
The end result on how "shiny" the gold is depends on how pure it is.Its sounds like you have a 4-9's bar which is perfect.If you want the pieces to be even in weight then you will need to shoot the gold which is pretty easy.What you are going to do is melt the gold and drop it in water:Start by getting the gold in molten form and hold it a couple of feet above a large stainless steel pot filled almost to the top with water.Slowly pour it into the water.The surface tension of the water causes the gold to flatten out.When the gold solidifies it will have what we call "corn flake" shapes.Then merely seperate the flakes into 3 even amounts of weight and melt each section seperately.Thats how I would do it.
Johnny


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## kg281281 (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks! So when the bars dry will it be a smooth glass like surface like it is now or will it have the texture of cast iron?


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

The suface will be like glass,but I forgot on every important step.....when you take the heat off of the gold it will great a "pit".To alleviate that,while the new bars are molten remove the heat extremely slowly.Allow the gold to cool very slowly.
Johnny


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## kg281281 (Jun 10, 2009)

So what would be the best way to do that? Would letting it cool be slow enough? Or should should I use a small heat source to make it cool even slower?


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

All I do is back the flame off very slowly,sometimes taking several minutes for the gold to get cool enough to solidify.Nick's (noxx) avatar is a perfect example.Also spend some time in the "gallery"section and you'll see a lot of pieces with pits and others without.
Johnny


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## kg281281 (Jun 10, 2009)

I cant find "Nick's (noxx) avatar", is there a link to it?


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## jimdoc (Jun 10, 2009)

Just look in the members list, he is #1.


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

Here it is.


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## Oz (Jun 10, 2009)

If you have a name brand kilo gold bar that is stamped you may wish to consider taking it to a gold dealer and exchanging it for 5 and 1 ounce bars and or coins. You will get a little less than an even trade as the dealer needs to make a little profit but you will loose more value if you melt a large Engelhard for example into 3 smaller bars that have no markings verifying their purity. 

Casting attractive gold bars is an art that requires a bit of practice and I would hate to see you end up with something unsatisfactory yet not have your easily verifiable pure bar anymore. It depends on your motives I guess.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 10, 2009)

Good post, Oz. I agree with your suggestion. Much better than tryng to melt or to use a saw. You're right on all counts. We sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. PAMP is the main producer of 10 oz bars. That would work out with 3-10oz bars and change. A kilo is 32.15 oz


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## leavemealone (Jun 10, 2009)

True,having never owned any company made bars I didnt think of that aspect of it.
Johnny


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## Oz (Jun 10, 2009)

No foul there Johnny, you were only giving advice for what was asked of the forum. I on the other hand offered advice that was not asked for and may therefore prove less desirable. As I said it depends on his motives, he may wish to play with it a bit before divvying it up.

GSP, the reason I suggested a mix of 5 and 1 ounce bars/coins is that I got the impression this was a kind of inheritance that was being passed down. In most other countries (other than the US) this is far more common in precious metals. It goes without saying that the smaller the mass of each piece the higher the premium you pay over spot price because of manufacturing costs. But this also allows one to sell a small bit instead of all of their inheritance if hard times visit them. Typically those that pass on precious metals inheritances as a safety net hope it never needs to be used and that it can benefit future generations the same as it did them. One can only hope that it could be added to as well.


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## kg281281 (Jun 11, 2009)

Thank you everyone for all your help! You have given me some good advice! However, I was wondering how the big companys make there bars so perfect, even, shiney, and a glass like surface? Do they pour it or stamp it or what? Thanks again!
Kyle
Camp Liberty
Baghdad, Iraq


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## Oz (Jun 11, 2009)

With reasonably pure gold it is easy to get a shiny surface as you see in Noxx’s buttons. Casting bars you get the same shine but as stated above piping can mar the face. Oddly enough this is a desirable feature to those that are educated, as it is an indication of purity. The big boys roll the gold to a set thickness then punch out planchets (sp) trimming them down to exact weights on the edges. After the mass is confirmed, they are then stamped under considerable pressure to fill the mold cavity. One does not cast by hand exact 1, 5, or 10 oz bars except for flukes. The trimming process before high pressure stamping assures exacting weights and yet at the same time provides a mirror finish that shows any alteration after the fact of someone trying to lighten the bar/coin weight and selling it at the stamped weight.

The innovation of a reeded edge like what you see on US coins over 5 cents was implemented to stop the practice of taking a fine shaving or two off of a smooth edge of coins with the recipient being none the wiser of the devaluation. Of course this was in a time when gold and silver were “known” by the general populace to be the only true money. Unlike today were a good copy machine can make passable “money”.

Sorry, I could not refrain from that parting comment.


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## kg281281 (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks for your help! So does anyone have any pictures of a gold ingot they have made from .9999 gold so i could see about what i might get?


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## leavemealone (Jun 11, 2009)

Thank you oz,that was very cool.I felt like a dolt for not thinking of that,I am ususally the one thinking outside the box....lol.

KG we have a "Gallery" section on the forum.Its on the main Board Index page almost at the bottom.It is filled(and I mean LOADED)with awesome pictures from tons of members.We all try to contribute as much as we can,if not to help,at least to show off.....not saying any names PETER!Below is a picture of a bar that he made that weighed in at over 1 troy pound of pure gold!

Have fun and be safe,
Johnny


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## kg281281 (Jun 11, 2009)

Okay! How about cutting gold? Is it possible, would i use a saw or a razor blade or some kind of heated knife? Thanks for being patient with me!


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## leavemealone (Jun 11, 2009)

Kg, It would all depend on the thickness of the gold.if it were around 1/4 inch or thinner you could just use tin-snips. If it were the thickness of foil then a butterknife would work....you get the idea.but as soft as it is,it doesnt take much to sever it.
Johnny


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 11, 2009)

Sometimes, those poured bars are very hard if they quickly quenched them, unless they annealed them afterwards. The same with the stamped bars - they work harden during the minting.

Here's a photo of the 10 oz PAMP bars.
http://www.golddealer.com/gold_bar.html


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## leavemealone (Jun 11, 2009)

Chris, a personal question to you and harold......do either of you ever get tired of looking at gold?I'm asking you guys because you've processed longer than anyone I know.I just dont want to be processing for 20something years and get tired of it.
Johnny


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 11, 2009)

> Chris, a personal question to you and harold......do either of you ever get tired of looking at gold?I'm asking you guys because you've processed longer than anyone I know.I just dont want to be processing for 20something years and get tired of it.



Since you asked....

I've never stopped loving it. I still get goose bumps when I pour large amounts of gold. I love the smell of aqua regia in the morning and purple stains all over my hands. I love handing a bar of pure gold to someone and watching their eyes bug out due to the unexpected weight of it. I love making the gold disappear into solution and then making it reappear - resurrection. I love experimenting with it. I love it that I know that I'll never learn everything there is to learn about gold. I love it because there's nothing else in the world that is that color. I love it because it is the only true money. Etc. 

But, I still know that gold is only metal. I have never gotten gold fever, in that I've never gotten greedy about it. I don't care if I possess it. I may change my mind about that when our monopoly money fails.

I've never cared much for PGMs. To me, working with them is too damned picky and I don't have the patience. The times I worked with them was usually cook-book style, which I never cared for. Also, I like working with scrap that comes in huge piles. PGMs don't usually come that way except for catalysts, which I hate. I do have the utmost respect for the very few people like Lou who have mastered PGMs. PGMs aren't easy.

No offense to you mining guys, but I hate working with, talking about, or assaying ores. I hate having to use an eye loupe to find the bead in the cupel. I do have some experience with it but it's always bored me to tears. And, 99% of the time, mining deals are either pie-in-the-sky or a scam. I like real things. Mark Twain said that a gold mine is a hole in the ground owned by a liar.

I really like silver scrap because it's easy, very plentiful, and very profitable. I've probably made almost as much money with silver than with gold. Dollar-wise, there's as much silver scrap as there is gold scrap. For each silver refiner, there are probably 50 gold refiners


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## kg281281 (Jun 11, 2009)

What do the words quenched and annealed mean? Sorry, im new! LOL!


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## kg281281 (Jun 12, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Furnace-Melt-Scrap-Silver-Gold-Pour-Bars-Ingots-3-Kilo_W0QQitemZ310143511006QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_Bullion?hash=item4835fe69de&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A3%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Can you tell me if this is a good one or not?
Thanks!


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## Harold_V (Jun 12, 2009)

kg281281 said:


> What do the words quenched


That would be the action of cooling something that had been heated for various reasons. Quenching can be accomplished by air, water, oil, brine, or other heat transferring mediums. Depending on the material in question, and the temperatures involved, quenching can soften or harden an object. 



> and annealed mean? Sorry, im new! LOL!


Annealing is to remove hardness from material, which can be from work hardening or from heat treatment. When annealing, the item is generally heated to a specific temperature and then allowed to cool slowly, but that is not always the case. When annealing materials such as aluminum, it is quenched in water. Likewise, if one were to anneal cartridge brass, it is generally heated to a dull red heat, then water quenched. The quench by water is not mandatory, it is the heating that does the annealing in the case of brass. The chemistry involved in metals is very complex. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Jun 12, 2009)

leavemealone said:


> Chris, a personal question to you and harold......do either of you ever get tired of looking at gold?


I have never gotten tired of looking, but I did get tired of the work involved, just as I got burned out on the machining I used to do. I seem to have an obsessive quality about the things I do, so I get fully and deeply involved to the point of being overwhelmed. 

Towards the end of my refining experience, I was working seven days/week, long hours, no less than 12 per day. My business was overwhelming. 

I still enjoy seeing and holding gold, an experience few can relate. The largest amount I ever held at one time was when I re-refined my reserves, just before selling the business. I had slightly more than 400 troy ounces of my (gorgeous) gold shot in a casserole, which I did NOT hold by the handle! 8) 

I expect that as long as precious metals remain slightly out of reach for most folks, they won't tire of their relationship with them. Only when you have handled enough, owned enough, sold enough, and worked too many hours will it become routine and boring. 

Harold


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## kg281281 (Jun 12, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Furnace-Melt-Scrap-Silver-Gold-Pour-Bars-Ingots-3-Kilo_W0QQitemZ310143511006QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_Bullion?hash=item4835fe69de&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A3%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Does any one know alot about curcibles? Is this a good cruciable?
Thanks!


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## leavemealone (Jun 12, 2009)

First to KG,
That is an awesome furnace.Its so refined and beautiful looking and Im sure it works perfectly.But I'll bet every piece of gold in my arsenal that steve can make one a lot better and safer than that one for less than $100(this is a bet you don't want to take).All it takes is the desire to learn and the lack of desire to want to pay over $700 for something like that.lol.I hope you take that in the manner it was written(which was laughing the whole time).

Now to chris and harold,you guys simply amaze me.If I end up half the man that you guys,and a lot of others on here are,I'll be grateful with the way I ended up.I've got about 40 years left on this earth and I hope they are as good as the last few years have been with you guys.
Johnny


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## kg281281 (Jun 12, 2009)

Lol, good to know, so what would you reccomend for a cruciable? Also if I wanted to stamp there names in the bars that i will be giving them , can I use a alphabetic punch kit, and if so do I do anything special or do i just hit the punch with a hammer and job wel done? Thanks again!


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 12, 2009)

kg281281,

Quite a few places I've been around had one of those Handi-Melt or Electro-Melt type furnaces and I've used them quite a few times, but only when I had no other choice. Usually, though, they just sat on a shelf looking pretty. I hate them and wouldn't use one if you gave it to me - there are much better, more efficient, and cheaper ways to melt. They are very limited in their use. They are typically used to alloy karat gold or to melt pure gold. Otherwise, they are worthless as t**s on a boar hog. You can't flux in them because you quickly destroy the expensive crucibles. They take forever to heat. You would be much better off with a torch and a $7 melting dish. Don't waste your money on that high dollar piece of trash.

Noobies seem to be attracted to these because they appear to be turn-key. That assumption is false.


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## kg281281 (Jun 12, 2009)

Would the melting dish be a "clean" way of melting? Or would you get impurites in the gold?


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 12, 2009)

There are tons of information on the forum on using torch melting in melting dishes, most of which are written by Harold_V and lazersteve. Steve even sells the melting dishes. Using the melting dishes is a very clean way of melting, unless you, yourself, contaminate the system. Harold has written a lot of posts on how to clean contaminated dishes. 

In general, you should have more than one dish, one for only very pure gold and one for impure gold. If you do silver, you will need a separate one for that.

I know the forum is so big that it's hard to wade through. Maybe someone can point you to the threads that contain the most detailed info on the subject. I would provide you with my techniques for doing this, but it is a little different and I don't want to confuse you. Harold has the most experience at this and, if you follow his method to a tee, you shouldn't have any problems. If you melt 999.5 gold powder, you should end up with a 999.5 ingot, or better. I think the melting dishes are a much cleaner method than using one of those silly-a** portable electric melters. You can see what you're doing and you can flux, if necessary. Almost anything you can do in an electric melter, you can do better with a torch and melting dish.


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## Harold_V (Jun 12, 2009)

kg281281 said:


> Does any one know alot about curcibles? Is this a good cruciable?
> Thanks!


I owned a Handy-melt furnace very much like that one (talk about an oxymoron). At the time, purchase price was about $200. Crucibles cost about $20, and had a miserably short lifespan. Being made of graphite, they burned away quickly, and as has already been stated, fluxing was out of the question. To me, that's a powerful comment considering I know all too well that pure gold can be melted perfectly well without flux, but a flux coating on the vessel (crucible) allows the gold to flow freely, so it's a very desirable attribute. 

Lose the idea of an electric furnace. They are, at best, worthless, just as GSP has suggested. The one I owned sat idle for years, once I discovered that torch melting was faster, easier, and, frankly, _better!_ So much so that I chose to torch melt my gold, even when I had hundreds of ounces to pour to shot. I even avoided a gas fired furnace, which I also had at my disposal. It simply wasn't as convenient as a torch and melting dish.

Harold


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## lazersteve (Jun 12, 2009)

Kg,

Check out my website videos for information on melting.

I sell a few types of melting dishes/crucibles.

I just got in some long life, high temperature white dishes that I haven't posted on the site yet. They are much more expensive than the brown limited use ones, but they are more durable and a long term investment. They clean up very easy with soda ash and last several years (10+ if properly handled).

How much gold are you looking to melt? If you are melting less than a few ounce the mini-firebrick furnace is the cat's meow. It only needs straight MAPP gas and the flame never touches the gold. It can melt a few ounces very quickly.

Steve


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## leavemealone (Jun 12, 2009)

KG I have one of the "melting furnaces" that steve sells,and I ordered backup melting dishes which is a very good idea.I have one for not pure,one for pure,and about 5 backups.He sells them cheap and they swap in and out of the furnace in seconds.A super inexpensive way to get your powder melted fast.And the dishes can accomodate WELL over 1 ounce of powders at a time.I am sure it can accomodate 3+ ounces,but the gold would have to be in several button forms first,you would not be able to add that much powder at once.
Johnny


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 13, 2009)

I haven't used the thin dishes that everyone on the forum uses. I always used the thicker ones (about 1") that have a removable handle. I may be wrong but I think they are about the same diameter and depth as the thinner ones. Anyway, I saw a jeweler melt 25 oz of pure gold in one of the thicker dishes and then he poured it in a mold. He added the powder in increments until it was all in. I never had the guts to melt more than about 15 oz at a time.


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## leavemealone (Jun 13, 2009)

> I never had the guts to melt more than about 15 oz at a time.


Oh I am sure it would be able to do that amount with small quantities added to it like you said,but I felt safer sticking with a much lower amount......lol.Would love to see some pics of that big gold if you have any chris.
Johnny


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## kg281281 (Jun 13, 2009)

I will be melting a 1 kilo bar. Does anyone sell melting dishes that will melt a kilo at once?


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 13, 2009)

Sorry, Johnny. No pics.


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## leavemealone (Jun 13, 2009)

Good morning KG,
I found this site a couple of years ago, http://www.lmine.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=molds .
The link is already set up to go to their molds so you can get there fast.They have molds for gold up to 2000 oz.But also take some time and look around the rest of the site.They have some really neat stuff at really good prices.
Johnny

Chris,I can handle not having the pictures,just send me the gold......lol.Good morning bud.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 13, 2009)

> I will be melting a 1 kilo bar. Does anyone sell melting dishes that will melt a kilo at once?


They probably do, if your torch puts out enough heat, but 2+ pounds of molten gold gets hard to handle, especially when using tongs. Molten gold moves around easily in a dish and it becomes a balancing act. If you've ever dropped a little bit of mercury, you know it breaks up into a bunch of tiny BBs which scatter everywhere and you never find half of them. The same with molten gold. For that much at one time, I would use a furnace. You might get someone with a shear to cut the bar in pieces and melt them in a dish in several batches

May I ask why you want to melt a kilo bar? If it's professionally made, it has an identity (people know it's purity and what it's worth) and can be sold at next to spot. When you melt it, it loses that identity. I don't like to melt things that have a known identity, such as 90% US coins.


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## kg281281 (Jun 13, 2009)

Because it has been in our family and i am passing it on to my kids, so i am going to melt it and pour it equally to split it up between them. So what would be the best way to cut a kilo bar into a few pieces?


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 13, 2009)

A shear


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## kg281281 (Jun 13, 2009)

So shears will cut through a kilo bar? What kind of shears?
Thanks!


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 13, 2009)

A metalworking shop should have a shear that is clean enough to prevent contaminating the gold. Scrap metal yards use alligator shears that would work but they're probably filthy.

If you have someone else shear it, weigh the pieces together afterword to make sure you get it all back.

I still think you would be better off by trading it in for some smaller bars. Just be sure the number of bars is divisible by 3. It would probably be more "special" to melt and cast them yourself, but, if you haven't done this before, you may be biting off more than you can chew. It might be an expensive way to learn and you very well may end up with crappy looking bars.


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## Harold_V (Jun 13, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> > If you've ever dropped a little bit of mercury, you know it breaks up into a bunch of tiny BBs which scatter everywhere and you never find half of them.


I had that happen with five ounces of molten gold. As you alluded, handling with tongs becomes a balancing act, one I lost. I recovered all but about ¼ ounce overall, but that was an expensive way to learn the lesson. That was the beginning of my handling melting dishes with a gloved hand, a process _*I never abandoned*_. In all my years of pouring gold, with thousands of ounces poured, I never again had a problem. I had a pair of asbestos gloves that got used routinely. Needless to say, today that might be impossible. 

Harold


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## kg281281 (Jun 14, 2009)

Well would anyone here be willing to come to Iowa in about 6 months to help me out? I am willing to pay in cash or gold!


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## goldmelts (Jun 14, 2009)

If he sells the kilo and buys smaller units, he will be hit with CGT tax. Unless he does it privetly.

Also he will lose money on buy/ sell preminums.
Also he may not want TPTB, know of his transaction.

Buy cutting the kilo, he will probably run into refining and assay charges down the road. As in when you try and sell the bits, not one will buy it unless the assay and/or refine the peices.


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## kg281281 (Jun 15, 2009)

Or I would also be willing to come to someones house or shop and learn about melting and pouring gold, As well, I would be willing to pay in cash or gold!


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## kg281281 (Jun 18, 2009)

Anyone? Im not a serial killer if that helps!


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## goldmelts (Jun 19, 2009)

LOL your funny


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