# Need help identifing an ore sample.



## Anonymous (Jul 19, 2008)

I need help with some ore samples. I have a basic idea where to begin, and have taken some peliminary data

first I did the scratch test on a white tile.

The sample does not leave a color mark whatsoever. It will scratch the glazed side of the ceramic tile.

Sample turned blue when I used it as a cathode. as seen at the upper portion of the picture. 

Basic info is the sample is a shimmery blue/Grey metallic color Light, but extremely hard. found them while digging out a tree stump..


----------



## Shecker (Jul 19, 2008)

This looks a bit like peacock copper ore -- otherwise known as Bornite (Cu5FeS4). From the looks of these samples they could have a fairly silver content. Michigan is known for it's great deposits of copper and considering today's spot prices for copper this could be a valuable resource to have.

Randy in Gunnison


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 19, 2008)

I had originally suspected that but boronite will leave a green color scratch and is incapable of scratching glass.


----------



## Lou (Jul 19, 2008)

Ever considered that the tree was struck by lightning and that those are in fact some vitrified fulgurites?


Personally, I would probably crush some up and try heating it in a crucible in a really good draft and obtaining a mass loss to volatility all the while noting the colour of smoke, the quantity, and perhaps sampling some for wetchem analysis (assuming that this smoke can be collected and is not carbonaceous or sulfuous in nature). You could also consider blowpiping it.

I can send you some blowpiping charcoals and write a bit on how it's done if there's an interest?


Lou


----------



## NuggetHuntingFool (Jul 19, 2008)

Vitrified Fulgurites...


Learn something new every day.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 20, 2008)

Lou said:


> Ever considered that the tree was struck by lightning and that those are in fact some vitrified fulgurites?
> 
> 
> Personally, I would probably crush some up and try heating it in a crucible in a really good draft and obtaining a mass loss to volatility all the while noting the colour of smoke, the quantity, and perhaps sampling some for wetchem analysis (assuming that this smoke can be collected and is not carbonaceous or sulfuous in nature). You could also consider blowpiping it.
> ...



fulgurite is a intriguing theory. a fulgurite is a mass melting of sand most common in deserts. They are also commonly found in Michigan on the sand dunes.

Problem is a fulgurite's don't normally conduct electricy. This sample vigoursly conducts as I have already used the top one in the picture as a cathode trying to extract trace elements from it. 

This isn't a piece of melted sand, it is clearly a metal of some type.

I looked up peacock copper ore and found this, similar yes.


I found this link, that kinda has me excite, now I want to dig up my entire yard..

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N


----------



## Platdigger (Jul 20, 2008)

Could it be high in cobalt?
Randy


----------



## markqf1 (Jul 20, 2008)

Maybe a copper sulfide called covellite known to turn blue when heated.

Mark


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 20, 2008)

here is a covilte sample, not it


----------



## Shecker (Jul 20, 2008)

If you are trying to do an electrolytic separation of this material you use the ore sample as an anode and a piece of copper as the cathode. This would cause copper present to plate on the cathode will pieces of non-conductive silicates and any other metals present would form a sludge at the bottom of the anode area. But a better idea would be to smelt this stuff first. Proper smelting will remove oxides, silicates, carbonaceous material, and other no-no's, and leave you copper Dore if it is an ore of copper. If it is an ore of copper then you need to determine silver/gold content, and if enough work out a method of extraction.

Randy in Gunnison


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 20, 2008)

Well smelting it is out of the question. Whatever this is it is beyond the capability of my cutting Acetylene torch. Whatever this is has a melting point beyond steel.


----------



## markqf1 (Jul 21, 2008)

Very interesting.
Where does it rank on the Mohs scale of hardness?
Also, do you know about what the specific gravity it is?

Mark


----------



## Shecker (Jul 21, 2008)

It is a possibility that you found a pocket of a glacial moraine that moved some pgm bearing material south from Canada. I would also suspect a high nickel content if this is the case. You might try some sulfuric acid as a starting point to see if a green color of dissolved nickel appears. But keep in mind that H2SO4 can be dangerous stuff, particularly when hot, and keep human bodies away from it. There are also other tests for nickel and pgm's that can be offered by other members of this forum.

Randy in Gunnison


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 21, 2008)

This is the testing I have subjected it to.

(a streak testTile) Scratch test, looking for any type of color scratch. To give me the Mohs hardness rating. (The sample ranks above Quartz). It won't leave a color streak on my tile. And it will scratch the glazed side of the tile.

it will scratch my hardend steel sockets, and my cobalt/titanium drill bits.

Also it is hard enough that a hacksaw blade will be dulled before the sample is gouged even halfway through. (I tried cutting the blue sample in half). 

Ive tried to melt it twice first time with my mapp torch, then with my Oxy Acet torch both were a no go.

I sent a sample to with my friend with Western Michigan university to have his geology professor look at it.



> Very interesting.
> Where does it rank on the Mohs scale of hardness?
> Also, do you know about what the specific gravity it is?
> 
> Mark



I have not yet tested the specific gravity.


----------



## Scott2357 (Jul 21, 2008)

A piece of metorite I mentioned in another thread turned blue after being heated to glowing red hot with a MAPP torch. Little bright white sparks would fly off the tip of the shard once red hot. Very heavy, very hard and acids did not have any significant effect on it. I was told by chemists where my dad worked that it was an extremly pure form of iron.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 21, 2008)

I am glad you mentioned the weight, I didn't say anything about that.

I need to buy myself a digital scale that can measure grams and oz's but the entire sampling that I found feels nearly weightless in my hand..

I wonder if I found a piece of "Unobtainium" 

Muhaha Muhaha Muahah! :twisted:


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 24, 2008)

I exposed my ore sample to a 17 hour A.p. bath sample remains appearance wise unchanged, drying the samples to see if they gathered any additional weight.

if this had been any type of copper or silver or I would assume they should have dissolved.

no pics of the small test samples I only have my camra phone and it gives less then quality pics.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 26, 2008)

Is it heavy for the size, looks like maybe silicon.


----------



## usaman65 (Jul 26, 2008)

slag from nearby refinerys of the past?


----------



## Lou (Jul 26, 2008)

So it is light, but it's hard. 

This rules out all precious metals.

Given its hardness, lightness, and refractory nature, I do not think there are any metals in it, especially if it survived the oxy acetylene torch.

As a matter of fact, there really isn't much of _anything _that would survive the 3000*C flame of a properly tuned oxy-acetylene torch, at least stuff that you are likely to encounter.

My advice to you is try again with the torch and do it with ventilation. Make sure to wear eye protection from UV radiation given off when you heat it to a ridiculous temperature.


Lou


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 26, 2008)

Silicon ?


----------



## NuggetHuntingFool (Jul 26, 2008)

Could it have Tungsten in it?
Can you verify if the tree had been hit by lightning?

Perhaps you can call the Michigan DNR, ask to speak to a geologist and send him or her your photographs via email. I've called state employees that are in the geology department and they were very nice and willing answer all questions. I bet they'd have your answer. If they don't, I'm sure they'd ask colleagues that work in the same department.

They'll close this case. 


Good Luck.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 27, 2008)

I found this link while doing an image search on different minerals.

http://rshconsulting.net/_wsn/page3.html

I think the pic is too large to post but this is exactly what the samples look like.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 27, 2008)

Lou said:


> So it is light, but it's hard.




I guess its weight is realitive. I will post more data after I collect some solid data. I am looking to buy a digital scale. so ill post something solid soon.


Sorry guys I am just starting to gather equipment its showing up slowly..


----------



## NuggetHuntingFool (Jul 27, 2008)

Just call the DNR!

Tell them that it won't melt under oxy-acetylene.
Tell them that it's very light for it's size.

You said it's very hard, but does that mean that it's brittle too?
What's the ductility?
Does it shatter with a hammer or just dent?
Does it get red-hot, white-hot, any surface melt?


Etc... make sure you note everything and just call the geology department to discuss its properties. Like I said, they'll help put this baby to bed, so to speak.

I'm curious as to what they are.


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

They look like Ferrosilicon lumps which are often added to cast iron and sometimes steel to improve machining characteristics.

I have a couple pounds of those for when I occasionally do cast iron melting.


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 27, 2008)

I have seen those, they look a lot like black or carbon glass. These are more metallic.


----------



## NuggetHuntingFool (Jul 27, 2008)

The people on this page would be a good place to start.
http://geology.msu.edu/faculty_staff.html
Michigan State Geological Sciences Department.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10368_11800---,00.html
Department of Natural Resources Contact Info


I guarantee your answer is here. You should begin calling first thing tomorrow morning, start sending out the pictures that you showed us. Describe the physical and chemical properties. Tell them how acids didn't affect the material. How it wouldn't melt with oxy-acetylene (which I find strange btw)...

You'll have your answer by Wednesday.

Good Luck


----------



## Lou (Jul 27, 2008)

I don't know what type of ferrosilicon you've ever encountered, if any, but all the stuff I have looks like this:


[img:360:360]http://ferroalloycn.com/images/Ferro_Silicon.jpg[/img]


----------



## Anonymous (Jul 28, 2008)

NuggetHuntingFool said:


> The people on this page would be a good place to start.
> http://geology.msu.edu/faculty_staff.html
> Michigan State Geological Sciences Department.
> 
> ...



I am going to send a sample to msu soon as I can contact them, Id rather avoid the DNR at all costs, I don't want mineral rights to become an issue. if of course this turns into something with value.


----------



## NuggetHuntingFool (Jul 28, 2008)

Good luck.

Although you probably won't have to send samples, pictures would probably be your best bet at first, then at their request you should send the samples.

Regards.


----------



## ivanchrist (Aug 7, 2008)

Hi all!

I am Ivan from Indonesia.
I have raw material containing 5% rhodium.
I would like to try to fusion with NaHSO4 for my raw material for rhodium.(from black sand) but i dont know where to start. 

I have passed the roasting 500oC for 4hours, the leaching with HF and then nitric acid, the Hot Aqua regia to dilute Au, Pt, Pd. 

and now i get residue which positively contains Rhodium(and might also Os,Ir), rose red colour, using steve method to test rhodium. 
I dilute the residue with sulfuric acid for 2-4hours, then adding lots of water before siphoning. 
I precipitate the rhodium or everything using Tin. I get black powder. 

I have legitimate reports from local metallurgy lab that the raw material contains 5% rhodium. I am not a dreamer but i am just curious. I would like to precipitate pure rhodium. 

how to deal with the black powder? or getting pure rhodium from the black powder? 
i cant get any NaHSO4 in Indonesia. Is there any substitute chemical? or is it possible to make NaHSO4? 

I might sound like any other guy in the forum trying to proof that their material contains rhodium. 
I am just curious, the country as big as Indonesia has no PGM's mining except gold mining. 
FREEPORT, the biggest gold mining in Indonesia, in Papua, Papua New Guinea Island which i believe, mining PGM's not only gold, chopper, and silver. 

please do look at the website www.ptfi.com 

Papua is the richest island in Indonesia but the poorest people among others island. 
My point is, I email and join the goldrefiining forum for the enlightment. 

Papua is the cendrawasih island and Freeport is only small part in papua which contain gold. My papua friends tell me that," If Papua is assumed as a body that contains gold, than Freeport is only hand." They, Freeport, are hunger for more. 

Sounds like politician.. but i am just curious and need enlightment. 

Thanks


----------



## Rag and Bone (Aug 7, 2008)

ivanchrist,

Take it easy. No need to tack your question onto every post you find. And it's copper (Cu). Not "chopper".


----------



## qst42know (Aug 7, 2008)

Hello. Is your ore magnetic? If it is it may be hematite.


----------



## ivanchrist (Aug 8, 2008)

yes it is magnetic due to lots of Fe.
any idea to process it to get pure rhodium?


----------



## Sylar (Oct 14, 2008)

Dissolving the iron with H2SO4 would be a good way of getting started.


----------



## patgspot (Nov 7, 2008)

I was going to say that it was hematite. But he said the ore is very light in weight and hematite is a very heavy mineral.

Pat G.


----------



## Richard36 (Mar 20, 2009)

Try dissolving it in hydrochloric or nitric acid, if it dissolves, add ammonium hydroxide, If it contains copper the solution will turn cobalt blue, with a light blue precipitate sludge. This precipitate can be dried and mixed with borax, then melted with a propane or acetelene Torch, which will then yield metallic copper.  :!:


----------



## abelleba (Apr 27, 2009)

I was going to say that it looks like a meteorite. I find a few here and there when I'm out metal detecting. The key is to look for present palasites from the extreme heat coming into earths atmosphere. Wiki palasites and get a magnify glass.


----------



## semi-lucid (Apr 27, 2009)

Uh, Wiki no catchy start on "palasites" 

J

Edit: Ok, Google catchy start on Pallasite


----------



## Richard36 (Nov 22, 2009)

Jdwisnie said:


> I need help with some ore samples. I have a basic idea where to begin, and have taken some peliminary data
> 
> first I did the scratch test on a white tile.
> 
> ...





Just a thought here, But being that it is hard as well as light weight with a blue tinge from being exposed to electrolysis, I would suspect that it is some sort of titanium copper silicate. Titanium is an extremely high temperature metal, and if I remember correctly, it requires around 5000 degress F just to melt it, so that would explain why an acetalene, or map torch would not melt it. Ti is also quite hard, and in combination with silicon, it would be extremely hard. That explains the dilema with the hacksaw, as far as cutting it goes. Ti is also light weight, and would explain the absence of heft. Most sulfides have an obvious feel of weight to them, which is what this material looks like, but quite obviously is not. most sulfides range in hardness from 2 - 5.5, and would crumble if pressure were applied, or an attempt to cut it were made, which this material did not do.The blue color from electrolysis would most likely indicate the presence of copper, and that the material is electrically conductive. If this is a naturally occuring material, It should have dissolved in one of the common acids. Since it did not, that rules out all sulfides that I am aware of. That makes this an unusual material, and therefore it is something new to me. I would like to know for sure what it is as well.

Sincerely; Rick.


----------



## Dr.Cooper (Dec 2, 2009)

According yours previous tests it seem as a hard mineral.
Check and confront the following properties of the mineral named Gahnite.
It is rare and almost a semi precious stone. If it, and you find a lapidary, surelly can make some money.


GAHNITE Al2 O4 Zn

Cubic sistem.

Especific weight: 4 - 4,6

Hardness: 7,5 - 8

Color: dark green, brown, dark gray, and from dark blue to black.

Bright: vitreous

streak: gray (over touch stone, no mark over porcelain)

Fracture: concoid

Fusibility: 1700 C. (near quartz). Over coal the fine powder mix whit CO3 Na + Borax (1:1) aureola of zinc.

Soluble by fusion with S2 O7 K2. |


----------

