# Oliver-upwind propane burner



## Lost_Adams (Nov 13, 2009)

For those who want to expand thier horizons and apply Other Technology to BURNING STUFF UP!!!

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html

I have found that Garden Store Pearlite, Western Bentonite, and Stove Pipe Patch and Cement make a casting/melting furnace that is durabil and Lite weight. Just follow instructions on Olivers website.

Sincerely
Bill Adams


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## golddie (Nov 13, 2009)

Hi Bill Adams
I am going to buy a burner like that one
I am also going to make a refractory from a pre-mixed material
I did some research into that Ill try to post some of the companies that sell ready to mix refractories.

About the instruction you are talking about where are they


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## dick b (Nov 13, 2009)

Golddie:

Take a look here:
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/bucketfurnace2.html

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/refractories.html

This should give you some ideas and save you some money.

dickb


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## AlanInMo (Nov 14, 2009)

golddie said:


> Hi Bill Adams
> I am also going to make a refractory from a pre-mixed material
> I did some research into that Ill try to post some of the companies that sell ready to mix refractories.




I picked up my MORCOCAST 3000HS (3000' F) refractory near St Louis at Missouri Refractories Company. I think I paid $35 per 55lb bag (I bought 12 bags for my large homemade crucible furnace), easy to cast and very nice guys to deal with..

Heres a web link -> http://www.refractories.net/conventional_castables.htm


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## Harold_V (Nov 14, 2009)

AlanInMo said:


> I picked up my MORCOCAST 3000HS (3000' F) refractory near St Louis at Missouri Refractories Company. I think I paid $35 per 55lb bag (I bought 12 bags for my large homemade crucible furnace),


Smart move, AlanInMo! Commercial refractory is a wise choice if you expect a furnace to stand up to the rigors of use with flux. 

I assume you paid attention to shelf life? I don't know that it's true of all refractories, but those with which I have been familiar have a shelf life, which effects the ability of the material to set hard. Best policy is to buy only that which will be used immediately. 

Harold


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## Lost_Adams (Nov 14, 2009)

Guys, AFTER you have built your furnace and used it till it burns out you'll not appreciate the COST/Durability factor. Our Ancesters 5000+- years ago used what they had avaiavle in there natural envirronmnet to build their Smelting Furnaces for Copper and Then Iron. The heat to smelt copper is comprable with AU if you use a Flux, 20 Mule Team Borax washing powder. In fact AU can be melted with a hand held propane torch, in a charcoal briquit with a 3/4" hole drilled in it. There again you need to use sodium bicarbonate or borax to lower the melting point and help flux off the base metal inpurities. I used this method in 1980 while wintering out in a 7'x7'x7' cabin on the Middle Fork of the Yuba River panning and slucing Gold. I received 85% of spot while every one else was only getting 75%, because their gold was dirty, ie. mercury/black sands/???. I just thought some of you Part Timers might be able to save BooCoo Bucks with that info. 

http://www.geus.dk/program-areas/common/small_scale_mining-uk.htm
http://www.geus.dk/program-areas/common/int_borax_fact_sheet_07-uk.htm
http://www.geus.dk/program-areas/common/int_ssm_fact_sheet_07.jpg
Sincerley
Bill Adams


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## eeTHr (Nov 14, 2009)

What does the charcoal in the ceramic bowl do?


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## dick b (Nov 14, 2009)

Hello Bill Adams:

Thanks a lot for posting that information. I had seen it some time ago and neglected to save it. It has a lot of good information included in it for the small time prospector. I also have seen the drawing of the torch and was thinking of it the other day when we were discussing hydrogen torches. In a lot ways its the same as a Hoke torch that people are trying to to find. I'm not really impressed by the safety features, but a simple Mapp gas torch will melt gold, if you prevent heat loss.

Thanks again for reminding us that we don't need 2000 square foot homes to survive in. Most people can't even imagine that is would be possible to live with out electricity, running water and a Super Walmart down the street.

If the rich could find a way to control and sell us the air we breath, the government will find a way to tax us for using it.

Hope you find lots of color in your pan!!!

dickb


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## qst42know (Nov 14, 2009)

eeTHr said:


> What does the charcoal in the ceramic bowl do?




It prevents scale and reduces oxides. Jewelers braze on a charcoal block for the same reason.


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## Lost_Adams (Nov 15, 2009)

What happens when you blow on a glowing piece of charcoal? It turns yellow then White Hot with enough air. The principle is the same as a cutting torch. You get the metal molten and then blow away the excess(your cut) with the Oxy. The reason you use the Oxy is because it is convient and handy, NOT because it is nessacary to cut with. Plain ol Air you breath is enough to keep the reaction happening. You can cut Concrete with an Air Lance. The lance is a peice of 1/2" Black Iron pipe Hooked to an Oxy bottle with a shut off valve. You use a blow torch or some other heat source to get the end of the pipe Red Hot and then you turn on the Oxy and apply to the concrete till you get a hole blown through and then just cut out your hole/Doorway/???. The above procedures can be done with Compressed air also.

The charcoal is used in a Cupola Furnace to Melt/Smelt Iron you apply air from a hair dryer or old vacumn cleaner for the blower and it turns the charcoal White Hot or apx 3000* plus. When properly mixed with limestone flux to float off the slag/impuritys it combines with CO-2 and burns the CO and you end up with a White/Cast Iron very high in Carbon.


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## Harold_V (Nov 15, 2009)

Lost_Adams said:


> There again you need to use sodium bicarbonate or borax to lower the melting point


Flux of any description does NOT lower the melting point. It has nothing to do with melting metals aside from absorbing or reducing oxides, collecting contaminants, and allowing the melted metal to flow better, acting, more or less, as a lubricant. 

I would agree that using flux to melt placer gold would be to advantage, if for no other reason, to eliminate contaminants that would, otherwise, be difficult to eliminate. Melting such material without a flux would likely lead to considerable loss of values. 

Don't give these guys the idea that if they flux enough, they can melt their gold with a match. _Ain't gonna happen._ 

For the record, the gold you see, below, was melted without flux, aside from a thin film of borax in the melting dish. I melted thousands of ounces that way. 

Harold


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## qst42know (Nov 15, 2009)

> What happens when you blow on a glowing piece of charcoal? It turns yellow then White Hot with enough air. The principle is the same as a cutting torch. You get the metal molten and then blow away the excess(your cut) with the Oxy. The reason you use the Oxy is because it is convient and handy, NOT because it is nessacary to cut with.



The charcoal is oxidizing to carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, scavenging oxygen from the heat zone and releasing additional heat. Carbon monoxide is hungry for another oxygen and carbon dioxide is a good shield gas.

A cutting torch only works because oxidizing generates heat and iron and steel readily oxidize at temperature. Oxygen is necessary for efficient cutting. Compressed air may contain enough oxygen (20%) to sort of work but the 80% other gasses will only hinder the process robbing heat from the cut.

Because aluminum and stainless don't readily oxidize is the reason a cutting torch doesn't work well on these metals. Yes, I know you can melt/drip your way through these materials but at a greater cost in fuel, and wont work at all on thick sections. 

I have not worked with an oxygen lance for cutting concrete but suspect the oxidizing iron pipe provides a super heated plasma (gasses at extreme temperature) that actually does the work of cutting through concrete.


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## Irons (Nov 15, 2009)

You can experiment on a small scale with an alcohol lamp and a bit of fine tubing for a blowpipe. Many a prospector had one in his kit to do bead tests on a block of charcoal. It's amazing how hot that little flame can get.


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## Lost_Adams (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi All Now your giving up that hard earned experience in very detailed posts. Just took a little probing to get it done. 

Harold, have you used a blowpipe to do a charcoal assay test on some ground up ore? If you have then your statement about the flux and match needs to be reworded and not just start to attack me for trying to present alternate ways or methods in response to the questions some forum members have asked about. I only am guiding and sterring them to places to expand their knowledge what they do with that is up to them. I gave the original website as an insperation and example to less Well Healed Newbe's that they didn't need to spend BooCoo Bucks on getting a job done. If I offended your age and experience I am sorry and will just go back to Lurking instead of trying to share my experience. Maybe I don't have the SheepSkins and get mixed up in the way I understand things but I still get the job done with what I have at hand. By the way I have over 50 years experience as a Structional IronWorker, Heavy Construction Carpenter, and Construction MillWright and 30 as a Gold Miner/ Prospector. 
Have fun guys I have to go to Arizona for the winter to Beep for Nug's.
Sincerely
Bill Adams


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## Anonymous (Nov 15, 2009)

Sorry to butt in. But in your charcoal assaying torching process, the flux lowers the melting point of the oxides, silicates and other stuff in "ore" samples, it does not however lower the melting point of metal itself and it may help you melt metal by making heat transfer more efficient.

Jim


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## Harold_V (Nov 15, 2009)

Lost_Adams said:


> Harold, have you used a blowpipe to do a charcoal assay test on some ground up ore? If you have then your statement about the flux and match needs to be reworded and not just start to attack me for trying to present alternate ways or methods in response to the questions some forum members have asked about.


For starters, no one attacked you. That is not permitted on this forum, and is grounds for dismissal. 

What I clearly stated is that flux does not lower the melting point of metals, which is what you implied. 

On a second reading of your post, I realize what you're implying, but even that tends to be somewhat misleading. Soda ash dissolves silica, it does not lower its melting point. However,* once combined*, the net result is a lower melting point. 

My purpose in commenting was to insure that readers don't get the mistaken notion that all they need do is use enough flux and their melting problems will go away. That is simply not the case.



> I only am guiding and sterring them to places to expand their knowledge what they do with that is up to them.


One does not expand knowledge in others by providing either misinformation, or misleading information. I respect your attempt, but if you intend to be helpful, it's best to have your information in order. I spend a great deal of my time trying to undo damage caused by well meaning, but poorly informed people. That seems to be the norm in refining. 



> If I offended your age and experience I am sorry and will just go back to Lurking instead of trying to share my experience.


I am not the offended party, nor have I requested that you lurk. May I suggest that you grow somewhat thicker skin and accept the fact that some of the things you may say aren't necessarily true? It takes a far bigger man to admit to not knowing something than to pretend to be the injured party because someone makes a correction. 



> Maybe I don't have the SheepSkins and get mixed up in the way I understand things but I still get the job done with what I have at hand.


As did I, and I did so without formal education. One need not be college educated to follow prescribed processes. I was good at follow directions. I also kept an open mind and tried to learn what I could to improve my processing and my quality. 



> By the way I have over 50 years experience as a Structional IronWorker, Heavy Construction Carpenter, and Construction MillWright and 30 as a Gold Miner/ Prospector.


That's an admirable record. You can be justly proud of your accomplishments, but, without making any accusations, my years in refining taught me to be very wary of prospectors, most of whom have little knowledge about refining and can't sort reality from fantasy. They are often driven by the gold bug and have the innate ability to ignore good and factual information, generally because it doesn't agree with what they want to believe. 


> Have fun guys I have to go to Arizona for the winter to Beep for Nug's.


I wish you the best of luck! Be certain to share the spoils with us through some pictures.

Harold


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## Harold_V (Nov 16, 2009)

Lost_Adams said:


> The principle is the same as a cutting torch. You get the metal molten and then blow away the excess(your cut) with the Oxy. The reason you use the Oxy is because it is convient and handy, NOT because it is nessacary to cut with. Plain ol Air you breath is enough to keep the reaction happening.


That isn't true. One need not get the metal molten, just preheated, at which time, the introduction of pure oxygen causes the heated iron (steel) to ignite and burn. It is not "blown away" by the oxygen, although the resulting slag is, and the cut can not be sustained with air, which has too much nitrogen and other inert gasses included to support combustion. It cools the metal instead, even if one may get a short cutting action by over heating the metal initially. 

You may have noticed, by now, there are some very intelligent people on this forum that will pick to death any misstatements you care to offer. It's good for you, and it's good for other readers, helping to prevent false notions from being propagated. We tend to see ourselves as scientists, shying away from witchcraft. 

Harold


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## Lost_Adams (Nov 16, 2009)

The :twisted: runs from the GREAT Witch Hunter in Fear. Sorry I'm not as consise and precise a you guys. BUTT you Did Attack me an try to belittle me so you can maintain your revered status. If you had changed your Tone then it would have been much easier to swallow. 
Isn't it amazing how easy it is to get so Totally off track and reduce this forum to a pissing match on who is Write and Who is rong. Check how many people belong to this forum and then see WHO are the ones who Post the most. Then wonder why there isn't more people posting than just a few. It's because when someone trys to share where you can find some info you have to be SOO Politically and Scintificly Correct or all the HENs start Pic, Pic, Pecking you apart. And yes folks the Spelling is Intentional not mispelled. 
Audios Amigos
BVA


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## Irons (Nov 16, 2009)

Lost_Adams said:


> The :twisted: runs from the GREAT Witch Hunter in Fear. Sorry I'm not as consise and precise a you guys. BUTT you Did Attack me an try to belittle me so you can maintain your revered status. If you had changed your Tone then it would have been much easier to swallow.
> Isn't it amazing how easy it is to get so Totally off track and reduce this forum to a pissing match on who is Write and Who is rong. Check how many people belong to this forum and then see WHO are the ones who Post the most. Then wonder why there isn't more people posting than just a few. It's because when someone trys to share where you can find some info you have to be SOO Politically and Scintificly Correct or all the HENs start Pic, Pic, Pecking you apart. And yes folks the Spelling is Intentional not mispelled.
> Audios Amigos
> BVA


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## Platdigger (Nov 16, 2009)

Harold, since we are going to pick apart every little detail here...
In all my years of using a cutting torch, I have never gotten the cut to start until the metal was molten.
True, it is only a shallow skin layer of molten metal when you hit the oxygen lever, but, molten all the same.
Try hitting the oxygen lever before that point, and you get nothing.


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## Harold_V (Nov 16, 2009)

I stated, previously, that the biggest problem I have had to overcome is straightening out problems that come from misinformation- Picking fly specks from pepper may seem like an attack on others, but if any of you had spent the amount of time I have trying to get someone on the right track because they've followed information that is misleading, yet not so intended, you might better understand why I respond as I do. 

People, by their nature, generally believe what they want to believe, regardless of the truth. They also often have a poor understanding of why things happen as they do. To them, a casual observation creates an image that translates to their reality, often completely wrong. To pass such misinformation to others perpetuates ignorance, creating a never ending cycle of stupidity. All of us see that on a daily basis by the huge number of readers that recover low grade gold deposits from base metals by dissolving everything as a unit, instead of eliminating the base metals, or stripping the gold. The number of people that have come to the forum to ask why they can't find their gold speaks for itself, yet few accept that they should change their operating procedure. 

One thing readers need to understand. I get nothing from my presence on this board. I have no aspirations of bettering my processes (I no longer refine precious metals), and I receive nothing in the way of compensation for the time I spend here. I do this to help others. I have no intentions of spending any more of my time trying to straighten out problems created by others that don't understand refining, but refuse to accept the fact that they may be misguided. As long as I'm on this board, if I read the least trace of information that is misleading, I expect I'll step forth and make a correction. If that is more than readers care to see, all it takes is a request for me to stop posting and I'll gladly leave the forum. I spend more time here now than I can afford. The choice is in the hands of the readers. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Nov 16, 2009)

Platdigger said:


> Harold, since we are going to pick apart every little detail here...
> In all my years of using a cutting torch, I have never gotten the cut to start until the metal was molten.
> True, it is only a shallow skin layer of molten metal when you hit the oxygen lever, but, molten all the same.
> Try hitting the oxygen lever before that point, and you get nothing.


I stand corrected. 

I should have been more explicit in my comment. 
What I was trying to say, and failed to do so, is that the air (oxygen) supply is not just a means of displacing molten metal. In order for the (chemical) reaction to take place, steel must be heated to the point of combustion. It need not be heated to a full molten state, where it would be displaced by air pressure. Cutting action isn't done by melting, it's done by burning, a process that isn't well supported by air due to the inert gasses contained within. That was my point. 

Harold


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## butcher (Nov 16, 2009)

only the stong survive.

Lost_Adams, cool off buddy, I can learn from you, and would like you to stay active here, what I wish you could see here is that, Harold is trying to keep information accurate as possible, in which we all learn better, many of us can see something work, and not be able to explain in detail how it works or the chemistry or physics of it, and may be mistaken in the details of the explanation, that do's not mean that it doesn't work, and if we do make mistakes or assumption's of what we see, and another who understand's these reactions, clarifies it, for the good of all on forum and us, we need to learn not to take that personal,(hard to do), but trying to understand as it may only benifit us, it seems your message almost got lost here in the details, and I think you had some good points, I did not understand the concrete cutting with the red hot pipe and air or oxygen, and would like to expieriment or learn more about this.
I am sure you will agree we all want to understand what we see as best as possible, and hopefully be able to explain it that way also.
only the strong survive we need not take this personally as an attack against us, for Harolds intention is only to further our understanding of these reactions, which can only help us to better be able to use them.


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