# PFuture prospects of small scale refining (amateur & small company)



## ChemGeek (Feb 8, 2019)

As years are passing manufacturers are learning how to avoid more and more of PM in their products.
Pd in MLCC is a song of the past. Yes, the very high end MLCCs are still using Pd but boards containing meaningful quantities are getting rare and tend to be of high end type (medical, military, industrial).
The same becoming true with gold sources.
Carat stock of course is going to stay (albeit one have to pay close to spot price and often *more* than a spot price even for scrap - look on ebay auctions of gold scrap for evidence).
With boards it is going from bad to worse.
Standard gold platings are substituted with ENIG, more and more chips, including BGA chips, are either transitioning from gold bonding wires to copper or aluminum equivalents or deploying gold free flip chip tech.
The policy of manufacturers is to make their devices *not to* last, so any features extending longevity are withdrawn.
Few years more and gold will only be found in historic devices or in medical, military and NASA boards which are of the type most unlikely to find their way to small scale refiner.
So it looks like gold refining for small ventures is coming to an end.
Of course PGM refining from catalysts will still carry on but this will need far greater investment than gold recovery as it would be rather daft idea to contaminate your own premises including living quarters with chloroplatinates, then fingers cross and hope for the best.
So the jig is up for small refiner.
Do you agree with this assessment or are there some other gold resources which small refiner can exploit in foreseable future as his feedstock?


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## butcher (Feb 9, 2019)

That sounds similar to what was said when Ma Bell found a way to make telephone switch's with less gold.
Sounds like the early gold rush miners (farmers) complained after arriving in the bustling goldfields.
Or when gold and silver was removed from our coins and money.

Adapt and overcome.
New technology new uses, not necessarily less metals are used but may be used differently...

With new technology around the corner, we may see the noble metals use increasing evermore.


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## snoman701 (Feb 9, 2019)

Here's how the market works.

At first, it was easy. It's said that at Sutters mill, you could just walk around and pick up nuggets. Those first guys had it easy. Then more guys found out, and it got harder. Now mining takes million dollar investments.

Same thing with early e-scrap. As a kid, a yard owner used to scrape the little gold balls off telephone relays...his dad picked up the switching centers for the cost of the iron...sometimes less. This was in the 60's.

Every scrap stream when it's discovered is easy...but now there is more competition, better equipped. 

Look at Anachronism...his business is what? Five years old? Maybe a few years more than that...he said that he got his start here. 

I can tell you one thing...if you expect to be able to take in karat scrap, or gold capped chips, or high grade scrap of any kind...at a high enough margin to survive, in small quantities and process completely on a toll basis...you should stop now, because you are wasting your time.


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## ChemGeek (Feb 9, 2019)

@butcher,
I see many new uses for PGM coming, that assuming that something resembling status quo in global economy survives, what is far from certain.
For silver there are also many new applications.
But with gold... all what I see is that it is being phased out whenever possible and replaced with something else. No new applications for meaningful quantities which I am aware of.
If it goes like that, sources of raw material for Au recycling will dry out.
And if financial system carries on deteriorating like now, it won't take long time before it becomes a monetary metal or important part of basket of monetary commodities again and other uses will get marginalized further.
Of course those who hold it will make good one time profit in such scenario.
Somehow me think that small recyclers will need to look for other elements which are likely to become in short supply.
In addition to PGM and Ag which are well recognized, some other elements like Hf, Ta, Re, In, Ge, Ga, are coming to mind.
Of course some higher level of skill and chemical knowledge is necessary here because Au is a *particulary easy task* from chemical point of view.

@snoman701,
What you observe with scrapping holds true with *any* imaginable business activity.
In 1960-ties or even early 1970-ties you could start up new pharmaceutical company in your garage too.

I have resigned from working in industry some time ago and now I have other business not related to chemistry and it works well but it is of seasonal nature, so in low season I have plenty of time free. All this recycling is just a passtime, however it should not loose money at least. 
I am happy with $1 an hour profit but activity should be at least selffunding. And if it works and viable business can come out of it - even better.


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## snoman701 (Feb 9, 2019)

ChemGeek said:


> What you observe with scrapping holds true with *any* imaginable business activity.
> In 1960-ties or even early 1970-ties you could start up new pharmaceutical company in your garage too.
> 
> I have resigned from working in industry some time ago and now I have other business not related to chemistry and it works well but it is of seasonal nature, so in low season I have plenty of time free. All this recycling is just a passtime, however it should not loose money at least.
> I am happy with $1 an hour profit but activity should be at least selffunding. And if it works and viable business can come out of it - even better.



You are absolutely correct, that it was easier in 1960 with the insight of someone from 2019....but I imagine to people in 1960, it seemed just as hard as it does today.

I've made these excuses for myself before...that the generation before had it so much easier. nowhere in history does it say they "they subsisted and beat the nazi's"...or "they subsisted and made it through the great depression"...they made the sacrifices, they worked, and they rose to the occasion. 

I'd caution you with the $1 an hour thing. A lot of this business is about being able to move quantities of materials. I understand your reasoning, but the margins are so tight that you really have to start out thinking bigger than $1 an hour. Learned that one the hard way.


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## niks neims (Feb 10, 2019)

ChemGeek said:


> So the jig is up for small refiner.
> Do you agree with this assessment or are there some other gold resources which small refiner can exploit in foreseable future as his feedstock?



You're looking at this all wrong - waste management will always be needed, It makes no difference if material recovered pays for itself or the cycle of disposal is paid for by the "customer" (like with municipal waste) - the job has to get done. It is just a matter of question which enterprises can do it in the most effective manner. Also healthy competition is a must.... I mean do you foresee scrapyards bankrupting, also? Sure in most areas there are few industry leaders, but still there are plenty of pop-and-son yards around (albeit sometimes taking the franchise of big guys....)


If your question was - *(1)Is e-waste refining a get rich quick scheme, (2)was it ever, (3)will it continue to be so?:*
My answers are: (1)No, (2)I don't think so and (3)No;

If your question was - *Could there be some turmoil in the e-waste recycling industry in the near future?:*

My answer is: I don't think so, on the contrary I have distinct feeling that there is a lack of competition (readpportunity) in the e-waste recycling market currently.

What I mean Is that In my opinion things like global metal spot price changes would impact the industry significantly more than, say scrap stream moving from PC->Laptops or yields gradually dwindling, etc


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## ChemGeek (Feb 10, 2019)

@niks neims,
I was not claiming that scrap yards will go bust.
I was claiming that small scale *gold* refiner who cannot do anything else will go bust, if that was his main source of income.
Of course e-waste will be managed somehow.
Copper recovery is important too after all. Tin, silver, lead or tantalum are also valuable materials.
Scrap yard will earn on these and a guy who has really big copper smelter will make some money too.
Or the guy who smelt them together with cats to extract PGM into copper dore will also make money.
Regarding *getting rich quick* - my buyer is still buying so who knows, albeit from my perspective few thousands queeds one way or another won't make much difference.
However observing an apparent incompetence of one particular e-scrapyard is hilarious and entertaining.
In addition to the guy who is not considering BGA an impotant feature on MB now they have a lady who told me "bring some radiators too because boss said that some of these might be gold plated as well".
Never have seen gold plated radiator, but they must know better.
I will feed them next week with 250kg of BGA free old type MB. Will see how well it works. Up to now they have bought well in excess of half a ton in few lots.
When ducks are quacking - feed them.

In regard of spot price volatility - it is and for long time has been a curse of miners, manufacturers, farmers and whoever else. They have to live with it as long as anything resembling global market is operational.

@snoman701,
Yes, to start any working business in recycling you should begin at least with a venture of size of a scrap yard.
Smaller scale activity is either amateur/hobby like or some opportunistic scheme which will either grow into something bigger or close down once an opportunity have ended.
$1 an hour for a longer term planning is not the most brilliant business plan.


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