# Mini AP process, cold weather.



## tek4g63 (Dec 29, 2011)

Because this is my first topic I would like to start out by introducing my self.
I'm 31 years old and live in Tennessee. I work industrial maintenance in the automotive manufacturing industry. I only recently started my new hobby recovering and eventually refining PM's from e-scrap. I have posted a few times on this great forum but this is my first time working up the guts to ask a question.

Now let me tell you a bit about my process. 
I'm processing small lots of gold plated pins. I believe from what I read on here that these would be considered medium to high grade pins. I have several thousand to process but I'm only processing 100 or so at a time. I process them with the AP method in Masson jars with a fish tank bubbler keeping some dissolved oxygen in the solution. I chose this method because hydrochloric acid (meratic) is inexpensive and easy to come by. Also I don't have the luxury to be able to spend a lot of time all at once to monitor a faster process. I like the " set it and forget it" ease of the AP method. I then use a steel bar to cement the copper from the solution when it is fully saturated. I save this solution, now ferric chloride, to possibably use to continue processing pins when I'm more familiar with using this solution. Up to this point I have had no trouble with this process.

My problem now is, as the weather has began to get quite cold my process has slowed greatly. Also I have noticed that the pins get about half processed then a large amount of white powder starts to form in the bottom of the jar. I believe this is copper I chloride because when I filter the foils and wash with fresh HCL the powder dissolves and the fresh HCL turns black/green. 

My question is; if I were to add a little warmth to my AP would my process speed back up and would my AP hold more copper? 

My idea is to place my 2 jars in a small cooler and add water to the cooler, to the level of the AP in the jars. Then place my fish tank heater in the water and turn it up to 100 degrees f. 

Would this work, be a bad idea, or a waste of time?

I know that there are a great deal of very knowledgeable people here and I hope I have not wasted your time with a stupid question. Thank you all for your time!


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## Dr. Poe (Dec 29, 2011)

It seems to me that the idea is worth the effort. Do you think that the fish tank heater is up to the Job?
No matter, but you are going to have to deal with condensation if your reactor is out in the cold. Dr. Poe


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## butcher (Dec 30, 2011)

Hello tek4g63, 
Welcome to the forum, how’s the weather there close to home?
I was born and raised just north of you (but I was not in Yankee land). Raised in the hollers of Kentucky.

Try a large electric crock pot (heats and will process more at once), do not use iron to precipitate the copper (keep the rebar out of yer pot), the acid peroxide (copper chloride will work better and can be rejuvenated with small additions of HCl and peroxide and air bubbling from fish tank.

Heat will make things work faster but also keeps oxygen from staying in solution long so low heat should be all you need.

Another option is a coffee mug warmer (or old automatic Mr., coffee maker), a light dimmer could be used if needed to adjust heat of these appliances, also a GFCI circuit breaker or outlet is a must when working outdoors with acid and wet environments.

I have used fish tank heaters they work but do not seem to last long, and then there is dangers of electricity in an acid solution, they would not be my first choice.

Electric heating blankets can be used (similar to the red electric heating strips you wrap around pipes to keep them from freezing in winter).

Even a heat lamp and a small box would work.

You can heat things just using your imagination.

I like a double burner electric hot plate (solid cast iron burners) and a white corning ware dish, I can process many things with this setup.

Look for Laser Steve's posts on this subject, also under any of his post's there is a link to his web site, you will learn much about the process there, he had a document that if studied explains the process of using copper II chloride to dissolve copper.


The iron is cementing copper in your gold and will cause you much grief save the iron for when you no longer wish to reuse your solutions.

Sorry I did not go into details to explain the process, you will learn them better from studying them yourself than from anything I can type.


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## tek4g63 (Dec 30, 2011)

Dr.Poe,
Thank you for your reply.
This heater was used for my 60 gal. Aquarium for quite some time. It kept the tank 80 degrees with no problem, although this tank was in my house and would not have dropped below around 70 degrees if the heater failed. I was thinking about using the cooler because it is insulated and I would only be heating around 2 gal. of water. As far as the condensation is concerned, what I failed to mention is that my setup is in my grage/work shop. It is not attached to my house but it is insulated. It is not climate controlled but I've never had anything freeze in there before. 

Butcher,
Thank you for the advice. I only want to cement the copper and try to reuse the solution to save from having to dispose of saturated solutions and to reduce over head cost untill I can sell some gold and buy better equipment. 

About Steve's videos. I would love to watch them all. Problem is my PC went south on me some time ago and I'm using my iPad and android phone to connect to the internet and nither one will play the videos on his site. I have watched all his youtube videos and would greatly enjoy to hear his advice on this matter as well.

The crock pot idea sounds good, just as long as I can get the wife to let me have one of the 2 she has.

Also I'm not putting the heater in the reaction, it would just be heating the water surrounding the reaction chambers. And I have all the electrical safety devices in place.

Sorry if this reply is short on details. Things got pretty busy around the house today. I'll try and post pics soon so everyone can see my setup and maybe give me some other great advice.


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## Geo (Dec 30, 2011)

something to keep in mind. AP by the nature of the process( oxygenated hcl acid) give off vapors that on a cool day can not be seen, these vapors react with moisture in the air to create hcl acid and will adhere to anything thats close by. as a vapor it will seep into places that would normally be water tight, like the switch on the fish tank heater.it can even get under the coating on insulated copper wire. if you are using canning jars you can add a simple vent in a plastic lid with a peice of plastic or rubber hose that will vent gasses away from your reaction.


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## tek4g63 (Dec 30, 2011)

Yes thank you Geo. I have lids with 2 holes one just large enough for the bubbler hose and one much larger for the vent hose. I use black polyurethane hoses and I vent it out a window. I seal the area on the lids around the hoses with common plumbers putty. Dose any of this sound incorrect? The largest reason I'm doing this setup so small is because I'm using it to learn the process and am trying to be as safe for my family and myself as possible. I may scale up in the future but not until I'm completely familiar with the process. This is also why I like clear glass jars, because I can see what is taking place.
I have about 2 pounds of close cut fingers that I will also be processing soon, but first I want to deal with the 10+ pounds of pins. But who knows howling that will take because the pins keep rolling in way faster than I can process them. ( that's defiantly not a complaint ) 8)


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## Geo (Dec 30, 2011)

set up an AP in a 5 gallon bucket outside to handle the overflow. dont worry about temps or freezing as acidic solution has lower freezing point and if you add a bubbler moving liquids will seldom freeze. if the reaction takes longer because of the cold just look at it this way. which way is slower, starting the reaction now and let it react even at a slower pace, or wait for warmer weather in a few months? even if it takes a week longer. theres an equation that you can use to calculate how many pin by weight you can dissolve in 4 gallons of AP. determine the weight, add the pins, add the chemicals, add the bubbler and forget about it for twenty days.


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## tek4g63 (Dec 31, 2011)

Thank you Geo. You have brought up a great point. It is fun to watch the reaction in these small batches, but it is about time to get down to business. I have to process these pins one by one because they have a small steel spring in side of them that has to be removed, because I don't want to have to deal with iron mucking things up. So I will focus on process all the pins and then just do one or two large batches.

Also I wanted to let everyone know that the fish tank heater, used to heat the water bath that my reaction jars were submerged in worked great! Actually worked better than I had imagined. It did in 2 days what, even in the summer took over a week. I dont know how long the heater would have held out but it did a great job finishing up this last batch. So I have finished up these small jars tonight and I have put things away untill I scale things up like Geo has suggested.

Butcher,
Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier. The weather here has been a typical east TN winter, cold and wet, more wet than too cold though. Almost freezing at night and gloomy and chilly during the AM. Lol. But so far it's better than last year where we had 3 ice storms by this time.

One more question. Does anyone know if there is a way I can view Steve's videos on my iPad? My wife got this for me for Christmas instead of a new PC, it's pretty great but there is still a lot I have to figure out.


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## pinman (Dec 31, 2011)

If using your wifes cookware is a problem(which it has been for some of us). I've found goodwill to be a great resource for old pyrex and corningware. Maybe your local 2nd hand shop has a crockpot for you at an agreeable price.


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## Photobacterium (Jan 1, 2012)

tek4g63 said:


> My problem now is, as the weather has began to get quite cold my process has slowed greatly. Also I have noticed that the pins get about half processed then a large amount of white powder starts to form in the bottom of the jar. I believe this is copper I chloride because when I filter the foils and wash with fresh HCL the powder dissolves and the fresh HCL turns black/green.



when you remove the pins, do you cut them off 'above' the solder, or do they have solder on them ?


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## tek4g63 (Jan 1, 2012)

These pins do not have solder on them. I do not wish to give away my source of the pins, so I can't say what they are used for, but they never get soldered to anything. And I remove the steel spring from each one before washing, then processing.


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## Buzz (Jan 1, 2012)

> One more question. Does anyone know if there is a way I can view Steve's videos on my iPad? My wife got this for me for Christmas instead of a new PC, it's pretty great but there is still a lot I have to figure out.



I'm not sure if the problem is to do with the fact that Apple don't support flash player.
Maybe that's what's needed to watch the videos on Steves site.

To watch flash video on your iPad, go to your app store and download the Skyfire web browser.
Use that to watch the videos.
Maybe it will work for Steves videos.

Then again, maybe it won't!
I don't have an iPad to try it.

Regards
Buzz


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## tek4g63 (Jan 3, 2012)

I just thought I would post a couple of pictures of my dry foils from my last mini batch. To get this little jar full it took about 1 and a half of the pictured baby food containers of the pins I have. I split it between 2 mason jars and let it run in AP for about 2 to 3 weeks till all I'm left with is foils in a very black solution. Sorry for the picture quality. I put a silver dollar in the pic just for a size refrence. Thank you all for helping me to get to this point. I will be spending time getting the rest of my pins ready to do a 3 galon batch, no more mini batches for me. :lol:


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## artart47 (Jan 4, 2012)

Hey Tech
Got your PM. came to see your pics. cool! I got some 95tin/5antimony solder last night and made some SnCl and tested it so, i'll be posting the gold drop soon!
I was thinking, for the colder days, if you got an old junk, upright freezer and put your set-up inside. You could run your vent line, air-line and whatever else thru the walls and hang a litebulb to heat the unit.
Ny friend has a popcorn factory and asked me to get him a scrap double door. he set it up to keep his 5gal. pails of syrup at 90something degrees after they were heated. he says that it works great. and the insides are all plastic so you souldn't have a problem with acid fumes attacking it.
Gool luck!
artart47


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## steyr223 (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi everyone hello tek
Very nice

Geo wrote. " something to keep in mind. AP by the nature of the process( oxygenated hcl acid) give off vapors that on a cool day can not be seen, these vapors react with moisture in the air to create hcl acid and will adhere to anything thats close by. as a vapor it will seep into places that would normally be water tight
"
Shoot !! O well there goes the roof of my truck :lol: 
I thought this to be a tidbit more info and the right spot
Most of you have seen my 5 gallon spillproof water bottle setup
I have used plumbers 2 part. Epoxy (round tube) the kwikplastic
and last the aquaweld(all 2 part epoxy puttys) on the top OF my rig
And all have discolored then became moist then leaked then fell apart 
hope you all lots of gold
steyr223


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## tek4g63 (Jan 4, 2012)

steyr223,
I was afraid of something like that happening because most common epoxys to my knowladge are not well suited for acidic applications. The plumbers putty I used held up pretty well but I can't say it would be "spill proof". I used it becase I could easly remove it so I could clean my jar lids and hoses, then simply replace it with new putty as needed.


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## barnes8888 (Jan 4, 2012)

hi you guys can you help me what acids are used in ap as i dont know if hcl is hydrochloric acid or Hydrogen chloride i know i sound like a dummy but i am dislecsic and find it very hard to spell form my understanding Hydrogen chloride is a gas so i thnk its hydrochloric acid just a simple ansaw will help me loads please thank you guys.


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## Geo (Jan 4, 2012)

hydrochloric acid and peroxide make AP.go to www.goldrecovery.us and login to check out lazersteves videos on the subject. its a good visual reference.


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## butcher (Jan 4, 2012)

barnes8888,
Hydrochloric acid is a solution of hydrogen chloride in water also called HCl or muriatic acid, a very old name was spirit of salts, because it can be made from normal salt (NaCl) (table salt) and sulfuric acid, some country's used the name Acidum salis (salt acid).

Hydrogen chloride is a gas if this gas is bubbled into water it is then called hydrochloric acid.

Many of our acids are gases dissolved in water.


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## tek4g63 (Jan 8, 2012)

Just for a frame of reference, I weighed the foils in the jar in the above pictures today. 1.31 grams. It never fails to amaze me how these foils can look like so much gold..........and weigh so little. When I get all my pins processed in AP and all my foils dry I will weigh them before the HCL/CL digest then weigh the refined powder and report back here. Well I better get back at it.


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## Geo (Jan 8, 2012)

weight in foils never translate into refined weight,i wish it did.there's always contamination in the foils (bits of plastic,string,inorganic material).


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## barnes8888 (Jan 8, 2012)

butcher said:


> barnes8888,
> Hydrochloric acid is a solution of hydrogen chloride in water also called HCl or muriatic acid, a very old name was spirit of salts, because it can be made from normal salt (NaCl) (table salt) and sulfuric acid, some country's used the name Acidum salis (salt acid).
> 
> Hydrogen chloride is a gas if this gas is bubbled into water it is then called hydrochloric acid.
> ...


 thank i knew Hydrogen chloride was a gas so it confused me a bit im nit very good with the scince bit but i do get a lot of computer parts so i might as well do something with them i have learned alot off people on here so thank you everyone you have all bin great .


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## spooks69 (Jan 10, 2012)

tek4g63 said:


> Thank you Geo. You have brought up a great point. It is fun to watch the reaction in these small batches, but it is about time to get down to business. I have to process these pins one by one because they have a small steel spring in side of them that has to be removed, because I don't want to have to deal with iron mucking things up. So I will focus on process all the pins and then just do one or two large batches.
> 
> Also I wanted to let everyone know that the fish tank heater, used to heat the water bath that my reaction jars were submerged in worked great! Actually worked better than I had imagined. It did in 2 days what, even in the summer took over a week. I dont know how long the heater would have held out but it did a great job finishing up this last batch. So I have finished up these small jars tonight and I have put things away untill I scale things up like Geo has suggested.
> 
> ...


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## Harold_V (Jan 10, 2012)

Geo said:


> weight in foils never translate into refined weight,i wish it did.there's always contamination in the foils (bits of plastic,string,inorganic material).


I had a very negative experience with a person who had been recovering gold from escrap (primarily pins), albeit many years ago. 

The guy was bright, had figured out that he could eliminate base metals by using nitric acid, which was readily available and reasonably priced back then (late 70's). He brought me a small tub (Dreamwhip) with a pound of foils enclosed. Unfortunately, they were wet, and also contained bits of insulation and other debris, as one might imagine. 

I processed his material without so much as a thought. The yield was near six ounces. When he came to pick up his gold, he was livid. 

"Where's the rest of my gold?", he asked. 

I informed him that I had withheld my percentage, and that the balance was there. 

"Not good enough", or words to that effect, he replied. 

I had just finished the material, so I still had the filter, along with the contaminants. I placed the container on a scale, placed his gold within, then filled the container with water to the witness line. By adding the filter to the weight, we were almost dead on one pound, the weight received. 

Nothing I could tell this man could make him happy. He went away knowing I had stolen his gold. I never heard from him again, needless to say. 

I treated him with total honesty. He had expectations based on greed, not reality. 

Set your expectations low. If, by chance, you find more than you anticipated, the thrill of the excess will far outweigh the unhappiness you'll experience when the three ounces you "just knew" were there, were not. 

Note: I have related this story before, but I am trusting to memories that are very old. I may not have repeated the story exactly as it shook out, but this gives you the idea. 

Harold


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## tek4g63 (Jan 10, 2012)

Wow Harold, that sounds like a very unplesant situation. Thing like that would make me never want to refine for other people ever again (not that I do now, or would I in the future. Just relating to the story). When people get that gold fever it seems to cloud their common sence. I know that my refined yealds will be less than my recovered foils and that is exactly why I wanted to post them here. I wanted to show and new comers that my stumble upon my post how the whole process pans out when they first get started. Videos like Lasersteve's and many others have been made by experenced refiners. They are great teaching and learning tools, but I thought this might be a good way to show what a new (hobbiest) refiner may encounter. I hope its ok to use this post in that manner. 

I clean my foils very well and because I only process pins (throughly washed) then dry them completely before storing them, I'm hoping to show that there is still impureties that get removed in the refining process. I will be completely happy with any ammount of gold I get, because it was more than I had before I started. 8) .

When I get ready to do fingers and cell phone boards I would like to post my process again with my recovered foil weight, then my refined powder weight, then my button weight. But that will be a while from now.

Thank you all for your guidance and advice! If it were not for his forum I surely would have made many more mistakes and maybe even given up on the hobby all together.


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