# extra lateral rights in hardrock claims.



## danec (Jul 27, 2014)

I know there is some hardrock guys on here.so im wondering if anyone can answer this question.I have this claim and someone has the one right beside me.my tunnel is 120 feet from the side line of were ours come together.from his claim the old timers followed a vein that came across the side lines and came into my claim through my tunnel and comes into the side of a different vein thats in my tunnel.there is 2 distinct veins that run side by side.one is through his claim and one is through mine.anyway he is all of the sudden trying to tell me because this small side vein cuts through the side of our claims and onto mine he owns the.tunnel it cuts through on mine and even the entrance and everything on the outside because of extra lateral rights.from what I understand he only has rights to the.immediate area around were this small veins cuts across anything in mine and he cant deviate from its course and take off on any other veins it might intersect.I cant really find any good info on the internet so if anyone can give me anything that would be great.thanks alot.


----------



## cnbarr (Jul 27, 2014)

My advise, you should definitely speak with an attorney that specializes in mining claims and mineral right, and do it quick before your neighbor does.


----------



## 4metals (Jul 27, 2014)

Is this what he is referencing?

http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/extralateral-right/


----------



## Reno Chris (Jul 28, 2014)

If you meet all the qualifications of which there are many, you can follow a vein down dip off your claim. It does not give you a right to enter workings on someone else's claim. It gives you a right to follow in your own workings your vein down on the angle of the dip. It does not give any right to follow a vein from side to side - only long the dip of a vein that has its apex (highest point) in your claim and within your own claim. In real life, veins branch and split, bend, curve and sometimes do all sorts of weird stuff. The law was written to account for single veins that are straight and dip at a fixed angle. As a result, all sorts of lawsuits have been conducted over this law. Usually the big winners of these lawsuits are the lawyers who rake in gigantic fees. 

Your description of the situation on your claim is confusing so I cant say much about your particular situation. 
It does sound like your adjoining claimant has no clue as to what the law actually says.


----------



## danec (Jul 28, 2014)

Yeah its kinda hard to explain.basically there are 2 veins side by side near the top of this gulch.they are seperated by about 200 feet.he has a small secondary vein the old timers followed that splits off his claim and comes over across mine pretty much level across the hill and eventually intersects with the vein on my claim.because of that he thinks he now owns everything on mine.I know he isnt right I just cant find anything that explains real clear and I cant find a mining attorny here in washington to sit down with for an hour to show the situation


----------



## rickbb (Jul 28, 2014)

You need to get busy and dig it all out first, before he does.


----------



## Reno Chris (Jul 28, 2014)

I'd put a gate and lock on my mine opening - good for safety as well as keeping him out. I would send him a registered letter saying to keep out of the workings, that he has no right to them, and if he disagrees, tell him in writing he needs to get a lawyer to explain it to him. 
Here is a link to a publication by the state of Nevada which has a bit of info on it and a diagram to explain it.
http://www.nbmg.unr.edu/dox/sp6.pdf


----------



## shaftsinkerawc (Jul 28, 2014)

Gated entry and exit points as well as any junctions underground will help with legal liability issues. Who's claim was recorded/staked first? Is your mine/operation current with MSHA standards? Does he have his underground MSHA certificate and the 8 hour on site training to be in your mining/operating area? A visit to your local mining group would be best with knowledge of the laws in your state. awc


----------



## solarsmith (Apr 18, 2015)

even if the apex is on your claim. it could come down to the expert geologist that gets hired to say who has the apex on his claim or yours. there have been a lot of cases that have gone bad for the guy with the cheaper expert geologist. my reading indicates the 2 of you should work out a mutual plan to work this vein. does he have all of his bonds to do work on your side of the line for reclamation? does water from his shaft or tunnel drain into your side? all of the many particulars can work for or against you. there are many mines in limbo for just such problems. I have a few tunnels under my claims and i dont own them. I have many veins that come to the surface on my claims and as far as I can tell they all dip and run out under the claims in a variety of directions. I even found a note about one of the veins being worked from under with access from on of the tunnels that came in from another claim "to the benifit of both mines" the note was on a mineral survey done in the 1800s. some miners have done thing like stopping pumping water or turning off ventalation in there mines causing the other conecting mine a lot of extra work. if the vein comes to the surface higher in elavation on your claim and not higher on the other claim you might be the true owner. good luck and I hope iv not confused every one. thanks Bryan.


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 18, 2015)

Reno Chris said:


> I'd put a gate and lock on my mine opening - good for safety as well as keeping him out. I would send him a registered letter saying to keep out of the workings, that he has no right to them, and if he disagrees, tell him in writing he needs to get a lawyer to explain it to him.
> Here is a link to a publication by the state of Nevada which has a bit of info on it and a diagram to explain it.
> http://www.nbmg.unr.edu/dox/sp6.pdf



Link dosn't seem to work.


----------



## METLMASHER (Apr 19, 2015)

Sounds like claim jumping to me. So that's legal with a good lawyer, huh? 

Work fast, "What vein?" ; )

Totally unrelated of course, but I hear blasting is a great way to acquire ore.

Might want to post signs prior.


----------



## Richard36 (Apr 20, 2015)

Simply put, hardrock load claims are 1500 feet long and 600 ft wide in order to work side veins. 
Therefore, the center of said claim needs to be set so as to be able to work the majority of the side veins, 
because any vein fingers that are outside of the claim boundary open ground for anyone to mine.


----------



## solarsmith (Apr 21, 2015)

Iv seen a lot of referances that say to qualifi for extra lateral rights the vein must run parallel to the end lines of the claim. I think it should be parallel to the long est side line of the claim can some one help me out on this. I will look it up and edit this as we go. so if the vein comes to the surface and goes out side the side lines of the claim on to the next claim the extra lateral rights do not apply. also saw a referance that it must also run onto public land and not under the next claim. and for every rule there has been a lawer that has bent it to the beifit of one claim holder or the other it seems. so unless there is a part of the vein that runs on the surface inside the bounds of your claim you should make a deal. the tunnels on your side are yours as i see it so you can sell him access rights to use your tunnels. Can we see your maps of the workings? an aireal picture with the vein drawn on it and the dip? good luck Bryan In denver (miss my spell check)

from the code of federal regulations...

(3) Establishing extralateral rights. If the minerals are contained within a vein, lode, or ledge and the vein, lode, or ledge extends through the endlines of your lode claim, you have extra-lateral rights to pursue the down-dip extension of the vein, lode, or ledge to the point where the vein, lode, or ledge intersects a vertical plain projected parallel to the end lines and outside the sideline boundaries of your lode claim if—
(i) The top or apex of the vein, lode, or ledge lies on or under the surface within the interior boundaries of the lode claim; and
(ii) The long axis, and therefore the side lines, of the lode claim are substantially parallel to the course of the vein, lode, or ledge.
(4) Preserving extralateral rights. In order to preserve your extralateral rights, you should determine, if possible, the general course of the vein in either direction from the point of discovery in order to mark the correct boundaries of the claim. You should expose the vein, lode, or ledge by—
(i) Tracing the vein or lode on the surface; or
(ii) Drilling a hole, sinking a shaft, or running a tunnel or drift to a sufficient depth.

from the California law review Extra lateral rights granted if the discovery vein passes through both end lines (short lines) . There were many pages of info on this one alone in the CA review, with many variations and cited case law. 

if any part of the apex of the vein is on your claim extra lateral rights do not apply. (my non lawyer opinion) thanks for putting up with all my updates. Bryan

As I see this the vein should be paralel to the long(sideline) of the claim. at the point that it comes to the surface (apex) and must cross both end lines (short lines) . Side branch or minor veins do not get extra lateral rights.
the CA law review has much more info on this than I can ever hope to impart . good luck Bryan.


----------

