# Reminiscing



## Geo (Apr 18, 2014)

For the heck of it, I clicked my name and did a search of all my post. I went to the first post I made and read through them for some time. I should have been kicked out a long time ago. :lol: I am very ashamed and also very proud of myself at the same time. Any long time member should go back and check out some of the stuff they posted and try to think of what it would be like to post the same things today.  I was reflecting on where i started, afraid to dissolve the first foils I recovered for fear of not being able to precipitate the gold back out and what I think I can do today. I just hope that when the time comes for me to take on the next challenge, it turns out as well as my adventures so far.


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## glorycloud (Apr 18, 2014)

Great post Geo. Thoughts to ponder for sure! 8)


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## justme2 (Apr 19, 2014)

Something for some to think about when hammering the newbs so hard. I do understand why it is done but it could be done with a softer hammer. Just my .02

P.S. I'm where you were back then. Got an oz. of foils and afraid to go any farther :shock: .


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## solar_plasma (Apr 19, 2014)

> Got an oz. of foils and afraid to go any farther



You don't have to do the whole lot at once. If your lab conditions are ok and you know your processes, just start with a half gramm and you get quickly comfortable with it.


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## Harold_V (Apr 20, 2014)

justme2 said:


> Something for some to think about when hammering the newbs so hard. I do understand why it is done but it could be done with a softer hammer.


I rarely check the board these days, as I am quite busy with other matters. However, I feel this post demands a response. 

This forum began life by responding to each and every question as if it was never answered before. We did that for several years, but it became all too obvious that a select few were ruining the board for all. 

Some readers have demanded answers without lifting a finger to do any learning. Answers for questions that require some knowledge do little to promote education, as the lesson isn't learned---and often challenged because the recipient often is told what he/she does not wish to hear (typical of those who think themselves clever). 

Want an example? 

How about the reader who refused to use stannous chloride, and refused to understand that it is the eyes of the refiner, that without it, you have no clue where your values may be? And then to insist that she was NOT running blindly.. 

As a result, there was a major shift in attitude by many (especially by me)--demanding that readers do their share, to gain the basics that go so far in allowing greater knowledge to be absorbed. Those who expected a free lunch objected, as they wanted their questions answered, as if by magic, they would gain the necessary knowledge. 

I am the individual who started promoting Hoke's book. I did so because it was the sole source of the knowledge I gained to refine gold, platinum and palladium. It was also instrumental in me gaining information about silver, although Hoke did not encourage the processing, as it was of low value for many years. The point here is that the knowledge I gained from her book allowed me to refine (commercially) for many years, with more than ten of them my soul source of income. I refined until I retired at age 54. 

Armed with the above paragraph, it should come as no surprise that the board insisted that new readers start by reading and understanding Hoke--even if it meant reading her book several times. Without that basic knowledge, refining would remain a mystery. 

So then, my friend, before being too critical of the response some readers have endured, try to look at this from the perspective of those who have given---and given----and given---ad nauseam, until there was simply no more to give. It was time for new readers to start helping themselves. Otherwise, precious few of those with experience would have remained on the board. 

Harold


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## nickvc (Apr 20, 2014)

I can see both points as a regular contributor to the forum and perhaps more from the perspective Harold and some of the senior members come from. Most if not all the aspects of recovery and refining have been disclosed, dissected and discussed, some secrets remain in the hands of those who use them commercially to earn their living so again I can understand reticence in disclosing them, but apart from them it's all laid out here on the forum for free you just have to search and read, here I can see Harold's point as I can when we get the I want it now attitude from some newbies.
Those that take their time and read before posting get a warm welcome usually from all on the forum with help and advice freely given almost instantly.
The problem now is that the forum really is global and many newbies don't use English as their first language and do not disclose their country of origin when posting which can cause problems for those trying to give advice with the language barrier and translation back and forth, so here more patience and leeway needs to be given, perhaps a liitle questioning of newbies would be better than hammering them instantly to see exactly where they are not just in the world but in their knowledge of this huge subject. Scaring new members does no one any favours, pushing or nudging them in the right direction should be done gently to start, if that doesn't work then yes it's read and use the search function and don't post again until they have some of the answers they do not even know they need yet followed by banning if they will not help themselves or get confrontational.
No one has the time or energy to hand hold a newbies journey through all the knowledge needed to be succesful and as most members are trying to earn a living either from or as well as from refining they can't afford to give the time needed for free, that's the point for everyone to remember, IT,S FREE, no one has to comment or help, when they do it's a gift whether the response is what they want to hear or not.
The salient points are that the forum is a free resource and that we are all guests here courtesy of the owner Noxx, knowledge can not be given it has to be learnt and all who have and continue to contribute to the forum do so freely with no monetary reward for their time or efforts, this is especially true of the moderators, we have simple rules to keep the forum on track, most of the time, and we all try to be men and women of science, the simple task of reading Hoke should not be seen as a hardship but the start to a voyage of discovery that will last a lifetime and not be completed and as I keep saying its all here and it's free.


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## butcher (Apr 20, 2014)

I do not see how anyone could learn to refine or recover precious metals without studying.

Many new members believe it is just a simple process, that can be explained easily in a few pages of writing or a video, they have no concept of the complexity of the science involved.

We can walk a member through one step of a process, or even through several steps and processes to recover gold from one type of material, but this will only help the member to do this one type of material, it will help him very little to get an understanding of the process, or how to deal with problems when they occur, or the material he is working on is different, basically in this aspect we are not really helping him to learn to recover or refine precious metals.

we could try to rewrite the forum, and explain what Hoke's book teaches to every new member, even those that will soon lose interest, as soon as they find out this is not as easy as they thought it would be, but this too would not really work, it would not help the forum or its members.

I feel trying to help a new member is to help him understand the complexity, and to help him begin with the study. Help him if He runs into trouble with that study, and help with answers to questions, that can help him to better understand something he may be missing or not see.

Anyone seriously wishing to learn this art will be willing to study, and in reality this is the only way they will truly learn it, we can help point them to where to begin their study, and help them along the way, but we cannot just write a few pages or do a video, and presto like magic they will learn this complex science.

As far as the hammer goes, sometimes a soft hammer is needed to get a job done, and sometimes the job requires a big hammer.

The trick is to know which hammer to use and when.

I also see both sides here, we do wish to help new members begin, just telling them to go read is the wrong answer, but trying explain every detail in a step by step process of every process or possible reaction would also be futile, there needs to be a balance.

Help the member get started, and help him along the way, treat the new member as you would have others treat you. 

Many of us when we where new members were hit with a blow from the hammer, I know I was, Harold's hard hammer blow helped me, to knock some sense into my hard head, it help me to try to learn to write better, ( I had no problem with study, as I already knew this was the only way I could learn this complicated art), I thank Harold for knowing which Hammer to use and when, I also thank another member for helping me to understand that hard knock on the head (he has not been on the forum for some time).

All of the forum members do not need to carry hammers, this will not help new members, and it can scare away those new members who can grow to help us later, but all of us can help a new member get started, sometimes by answering their question and helping them to get started in their study of this art, by helping this member we are helping him to begin learning, and many of these new members will be teaching us new tricks later.

Harold I am glad to see you back, I did get a bit worried by your absence.


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## artart47 (Apr 20, 2014)

Hi friends!
I started here reading all the fabulous posts, watched some of the videos all while collecting material. I downloaded Hoke's book but found it very hard to use on one of my old recycled computers. not to mension having no computer skills. I was able to learn alot of what her book teaches by searching and studing to members posts. I only recently recieved a hard copy as a gift from my daughter who saw me trying to read it of the old 486.or whatever it is!
By the time I began asking for help and advise, I had a few thousand pounds of boards, cards and had a mason jar near full of foils from my AP bucket. The same situation as my dear mentor Geo posted! I was afraid to to disolve my foils, fear that I may not be able to turn the gold back to gold. With the coaching and advise I got from my friends here that jar yeilded my first button that weighed in at 21grams.
If I had come here wanting step-by-step instructions to get the gold out.... the best thing that could have happened would have been to have Harold telling me to get off my ass and start educating myself. If not, I would have come away with 21grams of gold and nothing to show for it.
Finding our forum, becomming a member and following the guidence of the members and friends I have here has had a profound effect for me and my family. None of which would have happened If I'd been only given the step-by-step!
Harold is correct! Yes It may by necessary to help at first to get someone on track with language or other issues. but we're still here to give what they need to learn the art 
I would not help someone unless they are willing to do their work. 
artart47


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## justme2 (Apr 21, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> justme2 said:
> 
> 
> > Something for some to think about when hammering the newbs so hard. I do understand why it is done but it could be done with a softer hammer.
> ...



I fully understand your position, and the many reasons for it. I am on a similar forum and am too, tired of the same old questions by those who have obviously not read a single post or done one minute of home work by asking such questions as, where do I find scrap metal or how do I tell the difference between stainless and tin :shock: Did not intend to criticize but, only to remind some of us noobs have done our home work as I'm sure the mods can tell. 

Making it too easy and spoon feeding "wana be" scrappers has caused a huge problem in my own back yard I have personally fully trained at least 4 competitors in scrap and E scrap in my own small community. Wish I had it all to do over. "olddude"/justme2


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## justme2 (Apr 21, 2014)

After reading the posts in this thread ,including my own, I realize I was too quick to find fault. For that I apologize. 

I never thought I would see the day there would be a full time or part time scrapper on every block, most of them more scavengers and cord cutters then any thing else and I do not want to see the same thing with a "wana be" refiner on every block, dumping waste toxic fluids in my back yard., Your forum system discourages most of those types, they have to do something they are not used to, work to get what they want.


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## artart47 (Apr 21, 2014)

Just to add something.
I've seen scrappers here in racine stop at the curb, cut the cord,take a hammer and bust a hole in the plastic on a tv or monitor, smash the back of the picture tube to get the copper yoke. They leave the crap laying all over and drive off. I have tried to explain to a few about the toxic environmental effect of doing that. The response has usually been, "get otta my face" or a " go f*** yourself" !
You're correct these people. the won't even spend the energy to put the broken pieces back in the garbage instead of it laying on the parkway or in the street.
These are the kind of people that would show up demanding answers on a gold forum. telling them they must read and study assures that they will stick to scrap metal where they can cause less damage!
artart47


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2014)

I guess "Thoughts to ponder" would have made a good topic title. Here's something to ponder, 

If you try to fail and yet still succeed, is that a fail or a win?


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## Irons (Apr 30, 2014)

I went back and read some of my old posts as well, but soon quit because I couldn't stand myself. :mrgreen:


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2014)

Irons said:


> I went back and read some of my old posts as well, but soon quit because I couldn't stand myself. :mrgreen:



Yep, kind of makes you wince doesn't it?


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