# lead fumes



## ashir (Dec 2, 2018)

hi every one. i was doing pm's recovery as a small scale refiner. now i am going to setup a middle to large setup. the problems i am facing are the toxic fumes to handle. i read alot on this forum about fume hoods, fume scrubbing setups. well i write all the ideas and want test on them. my problem is now that i can not get any idea to deal with lead fumes.i want incinerate, grind, smelt with lead/flux as collector metal and then absorb the lead,
i need an idea to scrub the fumes when melting ashes and lead. is passing through a water tank will enough to handle such fumes?


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## butcher (Dec 2, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/farming-natural-resources-and-industry/mineral-exploration-mining/documents/health-and-safety/lead_exposure_fire_assay_labs2016.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00966665.1957.10467756

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/leadsmelter/environmentalcontrols/dustcollectionsystems.html

https://tri-mer.com/dust-collection/battery-wet-dust-collection.html


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## ashir (Dec 2, 2018)

thanks butcher. 
i read kavjanb pointing out about lead fume controler according to rules. but he not explain more. i was thinking to get some ideas with pictures. well thanks alot for links. let me read and i will disturb you once again


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## ashir (Dec 3, 2018)

so i read all in given links. quite informative. i want try a self/ home made scrubber. can you guide any link for guidlines. and can an acid fume scrubber will work with lead fumes?


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## g_axelsson (Dec 3, 2018)

Lead fumes are particles, so if you have a wet scrubber for acidic fumes then I would expect most of the lead will also get trapped in the scrubber. You could also use a mechanical filter to trap the lead fumes but it would probably be clogged quite fast and needs to be able to handle any hot gases from the furnaces.
Particle filters for larger smelters are often quite bulky and usually goes under the name "baghouse".
https://www.google.com/search?q=smelter+baghouse

And I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong.  

Göran


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## ashir (Dec 3, 2018)

thanks goran. lucky to have answer from you!!. i am rethinking on my process, as i am not satisfied with controling system with respect to lead. i am thinking to mix some old mobile boards+ mix ic chips+ mlcc's. incinerate... crush to powder.... mix the flux( soda ash, borax, copper is already there in mobile boards, silver is already in mlccs) and melt them. get the metalic stuff. treat with acids. here problem starts. if i not use lead then i will have to face alot base metals. any other option to use avoiding lead and lower the ratio of base metals??????? 
or i can remelt the metalic piece in bone ash or portland cement ????


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## butcher (Dec 3, 2018)

You may also look into electrostatic precipitators for fine airborne particles


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## snoman701 (Dec 3, 2018)

Shred, Pyrolize, Incinerate, Ball Mill, Smelt in retort furnace into copper anodes.

Now either sell as is, or process in copper electrorefining cell and your precious metals will reside in the slimes. 

This way you get paid on the copper and the precious metals, not just the copper.

It's not a small project, and will take a lot of research.


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## snoman701 (Dec 3, 2018)

Just to give you a little further information. The goal in the above example is to create a copper anode that is of exceptional quality, at least 95% copper content, and having very low oxidized copper. 

You want to oxidize off all low melting point alloys in the smelting stage and have them report to the slags or come off as vapor. 

All you want in your copper anode is copper, nickel and your precious metals. 

Check the forum, look for posts by Shark (copper cell), Kurtak (smelting) and Kjavanb123 (smelting) as well as some of the tutorials on fire assay.


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## ashir (Dec 4, 2018)

thanks butcher an snoman. its a headach on having such machinary that butcher recomend, nor any a simple lead particals scrubber. i can not get these in pakistan. i have to order abroad, too much expensive because of shipping and taxes. and according to snoman , i really need alot research , may be months to understand . smelting in retort furnance, copper electro refining cell are completely new for me even i never seen thier pics even do not know thier working principle. well i srarted learning about this type of process. as well as i have to keep refinng pm's in old ways. today i clean 3 kg mobile boards, thinking to process removed parts with ics, and using cayanide on clean boards with plated pins, 

sorry for bad light.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 4, 2018)

The fumes coming off that board you have on the hotplate can kill you and everyone around you. :evil: 

Dave


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## Shark (Dec 4, 2018)

FrugalRefiner said:


> The fumes coming off that board you have on the hotplate can kill you and everyone around you. :evil:
> 
> Dave



Very nasty stuff coming from the boards that way. Do a search for "sand bath". If done right it will help keep the fumes down. It isn't a perfect method, but can help improve things somewhat.


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## butcher (Dec 4, 2018)

ashir,

What material are you planning on the recovery of values from?
Do you have a good understanding of the material and different recovery methods?
how much experience with any of this material or the processes?

The more you can share the more we understand what you are trying to accomplish.

Education and experience will get more gold than jumping in headfirst with the unknown.
Education takes time, experience comes with your education.

I cannot see much of a reason for smelting and scorifying with lead, but then again I do not understand your plan.


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## ashir (Dec 5, 2018)

thanks frugal refiner and shark. i do not let the boards start burning i use

and just heat it enough to melt the solder and remove all components with knife. no burning of boards or plastic.
now butcher, here was my idea
i buy scrap from yards and assay it in low medium and high grade and sell it again but a good and old stuff is keep safe for refining my self. so from smal refining processes , i was trying to move forward with medium to large scale setup
incinirate ics and mlccs and complete mobile boards. grind. use flux ( soda ash borax lead potassium nitrate ) melt. remelt in calcium hydroxide and wood ash mixture pot to absorb lead. use acid to seprate pms( use cayanide on clean mobile boards and pins)
as i not get a lead fume controling system even no home made idea. i rethink and change plan. remove components from mobile boards, iccs and mlccs from motherboards and rams, incinirate. grind . use silver with flux as collector mathond. and use acids to metalic piece. but snoman reffer a copper cell as a large amount of copper in mobile boards. i can not buy any copper cell in pakistan . i have to order aboroad as i was asked for lead fume scrubber. and it will be so much expensive for me to reach. . now i am looking for your advice and guidelines! thanks


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## butcher (Dec 5, 2018)

A picture speaks many words.
I see a picture of someone cooking circuit boards over an electrically heated coil burner subjecting themselves and their neighbors to toxic fumes and deposits on the areas around them. The burner will not last long in the acidic environment of the volatile toxic acids coming from the circuit boards. a sand bath would be more helpful and the burner would last longer and be more efficient(under a fume hood, or outdoors away from population or living areas), the solder will collect in the sand bath...

One thing this picture says to me is that your a beginner, with some ideas and just enough of an understanding of the recovery and refining to be dangerous to yourself at this point and wish to go on a journey with a large-scale operation, before gaining an understand many of the basics.

snoman701 gave sound advice, smelting copper in a retort furnace and selling the copper or refining the copper ( a copper cell can be made easily (having a good power source is a requirement).

As a beginner in this, I would work on a small scale, maybe with several processes, gaining a good understanding with study and experimenting on a small scale, gaining an understanding of the processes, and how to perform them safely, much of what can be done on a large scale with large investments in expensive equipment, can be done safely with a small lab and easily available (sometimes homemade) equipment, the processes proven on a lab scale model can be scaled up, the process which proves difficult or failures on the small scale is not as devastating to your financial status, and these failures add to your education in the lab.

I say start this out small with educating yourself (which is what you are doing now), work on the safety portion of your study, what good is a few hundred grams of gold to a man dying from toxic fumes?

Start out with the small experiments of what you have gained from your study, from these small experiments gain an education of how things actually work and where the problems occur.

I would experiment with several different processes on a small scale, before deciding on a process to go big with, before investing much time and money to find it will not work out as planned or as the idea in my head.

Basically, I would spend time learning to recover and refine safely with several different processes on a small scale, gaining experience before jumping in on a large scale.


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## ashir (Dec 5, 2018)

thanks butcher. yes you see in picture is actually i was doing that, i explain the picture as i am not letting board to burn or give fumes. i grip this with plier and place on heat and pic up , again a little heat and pick up. so only solder melt but board not burn. and as solder melt then clean components with knife from boards. 
i did recycling as a home refiner a ton plus mobile boards and thousands of kg motherboards. alot of losses in start, many setups for fumes. first time think for medium type refining. setting up fumes scrubbers, furnance setups, 
and yes safety safety safety safety! thats really matter as i change my plans of using lead because i can not handle lead particals. and i do not want creat a killing dose for envoirenment! so that is asafety that is changing my plans again and again. here we are setting up our refining 
i will show all my setup as it will complete. now i have not idea yet about copper cell.elyctric large setup is not problem.


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## butcher (Dec 6, 2018)

There are safer methods, incineration in a closed vessel with a small gas port-to exhaust the toxic gases into the main flames of the heating source to re-burn these fumes (afterburner).

Open heating of the circuit boards or electronic scrap and resins puts off toxic and acidic fumes, by re-burning these fumes, we can lower the amount of that toxic gases that leave the flue.


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## Shark (Dec 6, 2018)

As butcher mentions in his post, the afterburner effect helps to remove much of the toxic gasses. Another side effect is those gasses can now be used as additional fuel for the burning process. Done properly, it will not only be better for the environment, it can help lower the cost of the process.


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## ashir (Dec 6, 2018)

we are preparing something you both said. a pyroliser and later on , when fumes will end , we will incinirate the metarial.... i have problem to handle the fumes comes out during smelting with flux.especially kead fumes and oarticals. i am looking for a homemade idea for handling such fumes. (handling mean, the fumes treated in scrubber and the fume expose to air should be free of smell and toxicity) 
and i am also intested on your advice to use a copper cell. but sgain i am looking to prepare a homemade cell. i need your more advice and guide on theses steps. i read again at least 92 topics on fumes scrubber as well a kavajnb post on " smelting fumes" but its not that i want know., i want get the idea to start to controle the fumes. thanks aloot


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## butcher (Dec 7, 2018)

View attachment incineration.rtf
You only read 92 posts and cannot find what you need, try another search with trying a different keyword in your search. The answers you seek have been discussed at length, using different words in your search will pull up different results, where you can find what you are looking for.


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## ashir (Dec 7, 2018)

awesome! i already read"building a pyroliser furnance" and we try a same idea for pyrolyser. after that,inciniration is quite fumes free. i am clear till this. next comes grinding. we have a ball mill. its also done. next step is using flux. we are using a nitrate, borax, soda ash, lead. now what about this flux fumes?


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## ashir (Dec 7, 2018)

thanks again for the results. i find a nice thread about ic chips yield data! according to that we are loosing money as we pay 7 to 8 dollars per kg motherboards. mix p1,2,3,4 may be some processors, some rams attached. we resell depopulated biards with 2 dollars per kg. we remove only BGA chips, mlcc only. this make me to relook at my yield data ! thanks man, yet i not get what i want but i get a doubt! and Doubts make you think again. thanks


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## butcher (Dec 7, 2018)

Why did you choose to use lead and a nitrate in a smelting process?

This seems very contradictive or in opposition to your questions of dealing with toxic flux fumes.
What is your goal? Why add lead if you are just going to oxidize it? 
Then again why add soda ash (a reducing agent) along with an oxidizer nitrate?

What is your goal? To use lead as a collector or is it to oxidize the lead?

Lead oxide would be a good collector in an assay (with a reducing agent, but would make a very poor recovery method, especially on a large scale.


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## ashir (Dec 7, 2018)

sorry butcher i can not explain you well, english is not my mother language and its also a factor.
i read these steps with diffrent mathods. and finaly i got this idea batter( not perfect) and i can avail chamicals used in this process.


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## ashir (Dec 7, 2018)

ok so i now tell you what i am thonking! please explain me which step should be reduce, add or substitute with orther steps.
1 . collect material to be processed. mix ic's + mlccs+ some pins ( that left after cleaning)
2 pyrolise
3 incinerate.
4 ball mill to make fine powder
5 magnatic sepration
6 mix soda ash( reducer)
sodium nitrate(oxidiser) may be work with some ceramic that might be present
lead( collecter)
7 melt the ash to get piece of base metals + pms
8 make a pot with calcium hydroxide + wood ash
( to absorb lead with base metals)
9 reget a metal with less base metals. 
10 treat with nitric. 
11 get silver and palladium 
12 ar to get gold
..... this is the process i write to practice. 
we will do this process two time in a month with approximately 8 to 10 kg ics and 3 to 4 kg mlccs at a time
now i want to make it more simple if you see my process is wrong, or immproper, un necessary, 
or there is a batter way! ( not the electrolytic process, untill i take time to read, understand , practice them) and move to medium to large scale . i am assure i clear myself more !


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## ashir (Dec 8, 2018)

hey butcher here are my starting points. its gaurav post ( here reading it again , i got and idea to controle fumes with oil ) 
https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=24635&start=30

and here is kjavanb123 post about large scale refining process 2
https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=25794


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## butcher (Dec 8, 2018)

ashir,
At this stage, you are describing using lead as a collector in a smelting process, and cupellation, although your description of the process shows you would benefit from much more research into the process and flux...

My suggestion is to stockpile the scrap that you plan to recover and refine, spend your time in study, refine your plan, gain the education, develop your plan after much much more research, and experiment with what you will learn.

My friend, at this point I would not invest my gold in your business plan, although you somewhat describe a smelting process and a planned recovery process, which if performed properly is one way to work your material, I can see just in your description you should spend more of your time in research, your gold will be there, and pile up while you do the research needed.

Keep reading and searching more of the details ( the devil is in details), gaining more understanding of the processes your planning, run small experiments, I would also keep an open mind, there are other methods, many of which you will learn more about as you study more.

Let us work on education, holding on to our gold as scrap until we have a better understanding of this processes, and maybe alternative methods, preparing yourself for success, not jumping in uneducated into a failure.


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## ashir (Dec 8, 2018)

thanks. yes i always study , not only forum , books also. getting more and more ways, but problem become when we cannot arrange all the equipment related to a process here. soon or later it will banned in my region also as refining is banned in other main cities of pakistan( china run some recycling plants and all other refineries are banned even a small refiner also banned) we can not resell depopulated boards( managers complaint to police as a person sell them depopulated boards) 
though, "devil is in details" i read smelting topics atleast once daily! i will try to give more a month to study and refine my process and then try. 
i also have a problem (laugh please)
if you are A and kjavanb is B goran is C shark is D
A write a process , B says this process can b done in this way alao, C say no, this step make faults, D say no this strp is necessary!!!!


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## butcher (Dec 9, 2018)

I suspect the reason that refining or recovery in your area is becoming regulated by authorities is a way to protect the public from the toxic dangers involved, people will unknowingly poison their neighbors for a gram or two of gold.

My thoughts are is to forget about getting a few grams of gold at this point, and gain an understanding of a safe way to practice, understand the dangers, understanding the different methods which work best and are safest, using your knowledge, and working within the laws of your country, education is your source of the gold,
Tons of gold can be inside a mountain, and if I do not know how to get it out, or how to survive attempts to mine it, and cannot get to it then the gold is worthless to me,and everyone else who lives near this mountain, yet if I have one rock from this mountain and a good education of how to extract the gold safely and legally, and can get some gold from it safely, then my education is what gets the gold.

Ashir you are focused on one process, you're expecting to learn what man has studied since the beginning of time, and what man has held these secrets from each other since they first found the valuable yellow metal.
You, my friend, have found the forum which shares these secrets, giving you the opportunity to learn these skills and art to learn the secrets held by kings and rulers from the uneducated people.

Education is where your gold is and through your study and curiosity is where you will find it.

If all you the time you allow yourself to study is one month, then you will still be uneducated, if you begin with a closed mind you will not be able to see the whole picture, and will still be uneducated, unable to recover gold safely from this mountain.

You can study this for the rest of your life and only learn a small portion, those who do spend their lives in study and educating themselves are the ones who can and do get the gold.


I also have a problem (laugh please)
if you are A and kjavanb is B goran is C shark is D
A write a process, B says this process can b done in this way also, C says no, this step make faults, D says no this step is necessary!!!!

Not all of us will tackle this mountain the same way, or with the same process, one man may work the ore with one process and understand how to overcome the faults in his process, the other man may choose a different process which he understands and works best for him, here on the forum you will see several different members which may tackle the ore differently and have different ideas of the best way to go, here we share our ideas and discuss the problems, and even come up with a new idea every now and then, we also discuss the problems and solutions. it is not always if it will work or if it will not, sometimes it may be what is easier or safer or just what is it I can use or what is legal...

The gold is there, and there may be several different choices of how to get it out of the rock, educated in these methods one man may choose a different method than another, not every mine (ore) will give up its values by the same process, and many times the best process has to be discovered through education and experimentation to find out what works the best, one process for one type of rock may not work with a different type of rock, here is where your education lets you adjust your process or choose a different one which works better for you.

Give your education a lifetime.
Or just beat on the rock for a month and give up, when you are done crushing it and standing there scratching your head wondering where the gold in the rock is and how to get it out.

Your gold will come with your education, not from beating on rocks for a month.

Educate yourself, about the gold in the mountain, educate yourself in the different processes, educate yourself of the dangers, educate yourself in the laws of your area, and what can be done legally, and safely. educate yourself about the gold and the mountain before even thinking about crushing the rocks, your education is your true value to get gold, not by blind uneducated experiments of crushing rocks.


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## ashir (Dec 9, 2018)

thank you very much, 

i read other processes, and all are best, all are a world inside them. i was asking to read this process a month more. i want read this forum untill i can, no matter i do recovery or not. 
thanks alot.


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## Shark (Dec 9, 2018)

There are several ways to do things in refining just as butcher mentioned. By learning as many methods as you can you have more options of how you can proceed. When I first started butcher gave me some advice on making nitric acid because I could not buy it at that time. With that, I started small experiments using the homemade nitric to learn new methods for gold and silver. Until then I had used "poormans" aqua regia. By learning how to make my nitric acid, I opened new areas of refining that I could not do with out it. I learned two new things about refining because of that one new knowledge. Not having certain equipment left me needing to build or make it which left me learning new skills and understandings of how to achieve certain goals. Over time, as I progressed, I purchased some things that made refining safer for me as well as easier and quicker. While waiting for the money to build up to buy or make an item, I studied all I could on that item so I could make a better decision on what I would need next. I still have a ways to go to be where I want to be in a safe shop, but I am way further ahead than I was when I started. If money was no object, I would have done things different and I am not sure that I would have learned as much as I have by now. I do know I wouldn't have the drive to keep learning more if I had of went out and bought a prefab setup. 

Some of the things I learned to build from this forum are my own fume hoods, furnaces, scrubbers, and ventilation systems for the shop area. As I said, there is still more that I will have eventually as time and money is available and I pin point the next item of the most benefit to me. There is much already on the forum that can get you a long way to your goal if you read enough of the forum. Read the library, then read it again. Read the safety section several times as well, besides keeping you a bit safer, it helps to show where you need to improve on your processes as well what equipment would be beneficial to have next. My first projects were a fume hood that was only good to keep the fumes away from me. From there I eventually set up a scrubber for the hood that went through several changes as I learned more about them and how to make them work better. It has all been an amazing journey for me, and one that is still on going today. 

Good Luck, and don't forget to have fun with the learning as well.


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## ashir (Dec 10, 2018)

thanks shark. snoman reffer your post to me to learn the process of copper cell for pm sepration from copper. i want your more guide to prepare the material, make a homemade copper cell, saperation of pms from soolution. as i want to use copper as collecter metal instead of lead! and thanks again to give me advice on concentrate small processes first. thanks guys,i am getting support more than my expectations!


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## Shark (Dec 11, 2018)

While they aren't my threads here is some of the threads that I started learning from. I am no expert in either smelting or copper cells. I just somewhat documented some of my adventures in both. They are tools used by refiners to reach specific goals and take much time to master. I also work on a very small scale compared to most of the members here, while scaling up can be easy at times others may require a complete change in how it is done. Reading is the key, and always researching will get you there. 

Copper cell

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=24397

And the library link
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=25596

Smelting thread

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23680

Library link
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=25592


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