# What did I got? How to discard?



## Alentia (Oct 19, 2011)

After used AR showed negative results for any other metals below Cu. I completely forgot to leach Copper out of it and blasted it with Ammonia. I acted on emotion rather than logic as smell of sulfur is terrible.

What I have got (visually) is:

1. Blue liquid layer on top about 1/5 of total solution
2. Greenish layer in the middle 3/5 of total solution
3. Salt at the bottom 1/5 of the total solution

My solution contained:

Used AR (Iron Nitrate(?), Copper Nitrate, SMB and HCl and bit of NaCl) I have added Ammonia to it. Not sure if these are the proper components in the solution and I do not know how to balance it:



HCl + Fe(NO3)3+2Cu(NO3)2+NaCl+H2O+Na2S2O5 - Used AR if correct. +NH4OH (Ammonia)

What eventually I got in my jar and what other process needed to properly discard it?


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## Geo (Oct 19, 2011)

if you have space,now is the time to make a "stock pot".a container (large plastic bucket or small plastic drum) that you can dump spent solutions to store and concentrate the small amounts of PM's that escaped in the processes. after enough solutions have built up cement all values from the stock pot first with copper and and collect powder for further refining then with steel to collect the copper. neutralize spent solutions with soda ash and discard as it would now be safe to dispose of.all of this is in Hokes book, have you read it yet?


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## Alentia (Oct 19, 2011)

Thank you, Geo!

I am well aware of the process and as stated, acted on emotion and confusion. I have red the book several times. I have already leached everything possible "below Cu" in the elemental table.

I am more interested in what to do now, rather what I have done wrong (already know it). I am unaware of the results I have got.

If I know the results (what I have now), I will do accordingly to remedy the issue and that is why I am seeking help from forum members.

I have understanding that Blue solution is Copper and it is not safe to dispose of it. I would rather seek an option to turn it back to Cu.


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## Geo (Oct 19, 2011)

cement with steel.


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## Alentia (Oct 20, 2011)

Based on the solution I have got after ammonia, I do not think I can cement anything.


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## Palladium (Oct 20, 2011)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1093&hilit=waste+room+elephant


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## Geo (Oct 20, 2011)

like i said,cement what you can with steel and neutralize whats left with sodium bicarbonate or just plain lime dust.


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## Alentia (Oct 20, 2011)

I wonder is there is any one with knowledge in chemistry, who can explain what is it in my solution now. Knowing, I possibly can arrive to an idea, what to do next.

I definitely have at least 3 components in my solution:

1. Blue liquid (should be something with Copper)
2. Green liquid (possibly something with Fe)
3. Salt at the bottom, not sure what it is.


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## Geo (Oct 21, 2011)

if there is anything in the solution higher on the reactivity scale than steel you will be able to cement it out using steel. if its below steel its not worth worrying about. after you cement it out you can get a better idea of what it is you have, you can test the precipitate with acids that selectively attack certain metals or send it to someone that can assay it for you.no one can tell you what you have in solution.im sorry if this is something you dont want to hear but a professor in chemistry couldnt do that without a sample.


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## qst42know (Oct 21, 2011)

Zinc is above iron on the reactivity list. Scrap aluminum should cement any zinc.


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## butcher (Oct 22, 2011)

PH (percent hydrogen), can play important roles here, if solution is very acidic it can hold a lot of metals in solution, ammonia is more basic (opposite of acid), and how much of each acid and base you have in solution will give a certain PH level, here you have added some ammonia or ammonium hydroxide, so you have lowered the PH, how much I do not know (for that you would need to test it). You should have a PH meter or PH indicators (these can be papers or solutions that change colors, some can even be made from red cabbage, but you can also find some of them in places that sell pool supplies) to me this tool is just like using stannous chloride so that you are not working blindly, 

(Very basic solutions can also hold metals in solution)

Many metals will make complex compounds with ammonia some can be very dangerous if dried like silver, acidifying will make them safe, 

Also you will not be able to use an elemental metal easily on solutions that PH is fairly close to neutral, as this process is slowed so much it would take a very long time, some acid dissolves the metals faster and gives the electron to your metal in solution you are cementing out.

A solution that has been neutralized will hold very little metals, but also would be harder to cement metals from, a PH of a little more basic like PH 9 seems to be a place that holds the less metals, PH has a scale of 0 to 14, strong acid (H) is closer to zero, water (H+OH) is neutral PH 7, a base (OH) is closer to 14 PH.

You can add acid wastes and basic wastes to change PH of your wastes. 

I would most likely make it acidic and then cement metals and then raise PH to about 9, also I would use waste from another batch to work this out.

Some metals like zink or aluminum are more reactive and will dissolve at a lower ph than say Iron or copper, so using these you may not need to adjust PH that much, these metals can also be very reactive in strong acids or strong base solutions. (editted to add this line).

Reading Dealing with wastes should have been read before even mixing your first batch of chemicals when learning this art.


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## Alentia (Oct 22, 2011)

Thank you, Butcher!

This is what I had expected. My PH testing paper should be arriving this week and I can figure out what is PH level of the solution.

Knowing, that Sodium Hydroxide will cause visible reaction if PH level below 6-7, I have tested small bit of the solution with no fizzle. My assumption the solution is close to PH 7 or shifted towards base with the amount of ammonia I have put in.

I will have to use future acidic wastes to convert it back to below 6 PH level as per your recommendation as it does make lots of sense.

As well, I am thinking of separating: Blue liquid, green liquid and salt into 3 different containers. I still remain in unknown, what is the salt. I am thinking it is some kind of sulfate, but without good knowledge (all forgotten since my last chemistry class) in chemistry can not identify it.

I read about waste disposal and was following procedures, specially recommended by 4metals, but this was slippage in my part.


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## Alentia (Oct 24, 2011)

After 6 days at temperature around 12C/50F I am getting some precipitation of black metallics at the bottom of the jars. Wonder what it might be.

The "blue layer" has merged with "green layer" and the amount of salt at the bottom has been reduced. Still waiting for my PH paper to arrive.


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## Alentia (Oct 24, 2011)

Hydrogen sulfide (British English: hydrogen sulphide) is the chemical compound with the formula H2S. It is a colorless, very poisonous, flammable gas with the characteristic foul odor of expired eggs perceptible at concentrations as low as 0.00047 parts per million.


It should belong to different thread, but it is already here. Following was the reason I was cautiously asking, what the hell did I get! 

If I got FeS as salt from the reaction of SMB, so adding HCl to it as below

FeS + 2 HCl → FeCl2 + *H2S*

may produce following results (from Wiki):

Hydrogen sulfide is slightly heavier than air; a mixture of H2S and air is explosive. Hydrogen sulfide and oxygen burn with a blue flame to form sulfur dioxide (SO2) and water. In general, hydrogen sulfide acts as a reducing agent.

Hydrogen sulfide is considered a broad-spectrum poison, meaning that it can poison several different systems in the body, although the nervous system is most affected. The toxicity of H2S is comparable with that of hydrogen cyanide. It forms a complex bond with iron in the mitochondrial cytochrome enzymes, thus preventing cellular respiration.

*To all: Do not try to dissolve FeS with Hydrochloric Acid, results might be fatal.*


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## butcher (Oct 25, 2011)

Alentia, are you working with ore? they can be sulfide's.

If you just had metals dissolved in aqua regia (not ore), and used sodium metabisulfite, your products would be sulfate's, not sulfide's.


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## butcher (Oct 26, 2011)

I am learning too here is an email I got that may help me learn more about pH:
I feel this can also help others here on the forum.

Subject: What did I got? How to discard?

butcher wrote:
PH (percent hydrogen), can play important roles here, if solution is very acidic it can hold a lot of metals in solution, ammonia is more basic (opposite of acid), and how much of each acid and base you have in solution will give a certain PH level, here you have added some ammonia or ammonium hydroxide, so you have lowered the PH, how much I do not know (for that you would need to test it). You should have a PH meter or PH indicators (these can be papers or solutions that change colors, some can even be made from red cabbage, but you can also find some of them in places that sell pool supplies) to me this tool is just like using stannous chloride so that you are not working blindly, 

(Very basic solutions can also hold metals in solution)

Many metals will make complex compounds with ammonia some can be very dangerous if dried like silver, acidifying will make them safe, 

Also you will not be able to use an elemental metal easily on solutions that PH is fairly close to neutral, as this process is slowed so much it would take a very long time, some acid dissolves the metals faster and gives the electron to your metal in solution you are cementing out.

A solution that has been neutralized will hold very little metals, but also would be harder to cement metals from, a PH of a little more basic like PH 9 seems to be a place that holds the less metals, PH has a scale of 0 to 14, strong acid (H) is closer to zero, water (H+OH) is neutral PH 7, a base (OH) is closer to 14 PH.

You can add acid wastes and basic wastes to change PH of your wastes. 

I would most likely make it acidic and then cement metals and then raise PH to about 9, also I would use waste from another batch to work this out.

Some metals like zink or aluminum are more reactive and will dissolve at a lower ph than say Iron or copper, so using these you may not need to adjust PH that much, these metals can also be very reactive in strong acids or strong base solutions. (editted to add this line).

Reading Dealing with wastes should have been read before even mixing your first batch of chemicals when learning this art.

GSP Chris wrote:
Richard,

I hope I'm not being too much of a shit, but the term pH doesn't stand for percent hydrogen, although it is related to the hydrogen ion concentration. It fits the letters, but it's not correct. Generally, as you go from pH 14 downward, each number decrease of pH (e.g., from 4 to 3 or from 11 to 10) indicates a 10-fold increase in hydrogen ion (H+ = acid) concentration and a 10-fold decrease in hydroxyl ion (OH- = base) concentration. In other words, a pH of 1 would theoretically be 1000 times more acidic than a pH of 4. It's visa versa as you go upward from 0. Mathematically, it's a logarithmic relationship rather than a linear one, as percent would be. Here's the boring math, in case you're interested. I know I'm not.

In practice, you have likely seen this. When you're raising the pH of a solution, it might, hypothetically, take only a few drops of a NaOH solution to go from 6 to 7 or from 7 to 8 and a half liter to go from 13 to 14.

I think the lower case p in pH has a definite chemical meaning and it should always be written that way - the p lower case and the H upper case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

The Richter scale of measuring earthquakes works the same way. An earthquake of magnitude 8 on the Richter scale would be about 100 times stronger than one of magnitude 6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale

Your friend,

Chris

My reply to this email:

Thanks Chris, I did know pH had a lithogram scale of 10’s, although I have not much clue of the math of lithograms, but I do somewhat understand how the pH scale works, I have always thought it meant percent hydrogen, as hydrogen is a determining factor, thank you for bringing this to my attention, I will try and use it better next time, now I will go spend some time reading about pH.

Chris it is an honor for you to call me your friend, I got such a kick a while back when you posted something on the forum and you remembered my name, (my memory has always been so bad sometimes I think I forget my own name), you have taught me so much, that there is no way that I could express my gratitude, all I can do is say thank you, and it would be my honor to call you my friend.


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