# Question - Making 925 Jewelry



## kurtak (Mar 21, 2018)

High All

First of all I want to say I am sorry that since I made my moved from Wisconsin to Oregon I have just been to busy settling in to my new home here in Oregon to post on the forum like I used to  --- however I do log in to the forum "everyday" to read the latest & greatest discussions taking place here 8) :mrgreen: 

That said - one of the things I have been working on here at my new home is making sterling silver Jewelry out of my stash of 925

Part of the process in making the jewelry is annealing the 925 (the larger pieces like rings' bracelet's etc.) in order to make the bends &/or stamp designs in it

In the annealing process the heat brings a black copper oxide (fire scale) to the surface which is eliminated with dilute sulfuric acid pickling - after removing the fire scale I am left with a dull "silver" surface - which is then buffed out to a "high" mirror shine with my bench buffers - so no problems with cleaning up the larger pieces

However - when making small pieces such as ear rings, pendants or attaching clasp's to chains I run into the same problem of fire scale followed by the "dull" silver after pickling in the dilute sulfuric as a result of soldering things like jump rings when attaching a clasp to a chain or a post to an ear ring

The problem is that these pieces are just to small &/or fragile to buff out to the high mirror shine with a high speed bench buffer

So the question is --- how do the professional jewelers get the mirror finish back to the silver after soldering these "small" pieces

I have attached a pic which is not the best due to lighting - but as you can see the piece on the top left has such a mirror finish it glares from the lighting after buffing while the piece on the right has the dull silver color after pickling but before buffing - the same with the jump rings - the three on the left that have not been soldered have a high shine - while the ones on the right are dull after soldering & then pickling to remove the fire scale

I still love this forum & the members I have come to know over the years as valued friends - I just don't (at this time) have time to post like I used to

Kurt


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## FrugalRefiner (Mar 21, 2018)

Foredom flexible shaft (or similar) with small buffs. You can control the speed with a foot pedal.

Dave


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## rickbb (Mar 21, 2018)

You could also tumble them with a fine medium made for the purpose.

Or do like my late father in law did with used brass shells from the firing range, tumble them in sawdust and wood shavings. After a few hours they came out so shiny they looked better than new ones.


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## nickvc (Mar 21, 2018)

Kurt you can use a barrel with stainless shot of varying sizes and shapes to get the first finish and then hand polish to finish, also as you have a fumehood I assume you could use cyanide and peroxide to strip the fire scale as I believe it gives a much better finish.


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## silversaddle1 (Mar 21, 2018)

Anything you have even needed to know about soldering, firescale, and fire burn.

http://www.nancylthamilton.com/techniques/soldering/oxidation-flux-and-fire-scale/


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## silversaddle1 (Mar 21, 2018)

We do some silverwork as well, and are all to familiar with firescale.


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## Shark (Mar 21, 2018)

Kurt, There is a eating joint here that has some very unique items made from stainless that you might be interested in making as well. Next time I am over that way I will get some pictures of them. Making similar items in silver plate or even sterling would be very impressive.


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## snoman701 (Mar 21, 2018)

nickvc said:


> Kurt you can use a barrel with stainless shot of varying sizes and shapes to get the first finish and then hand polish to finish, also as you have a fumehood I assume you could use cyanide and peroxide to strip the fire scale as I believe it gives a much better finish.



I used this method. I would sand the surface to 600 grit, then tumble with a cutting compound in walnut shell (we called it white diamond)...then I'd polish big stuff or tumble with variable shape stainless shot. It basically just polishes by pounding the surface millions of times with really light impacts. Finally, red rouge was used with a cloth wheel on the assembled item.




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## g_axelsson (Mar 21, 2018)

This forum might be good on many things, but for jewellery I would turn to https://www.ganoksin.com

For example this page...
https://www.ganoksin.com/topic/jewelry-making/surface-manipulation/tumbling/

Göran


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## kurtak (Apr 6, 2018)

Hi all

Sorry for such a long delay on getting back to this thread  --- but at first after reading the replies I received I ended up spending a few days reading the links provided by silversadlle1 & Goran - along with additional searches and as well watching You Tube silver smithing videos - & I have to say - watching YT videos on silver smithing is kind of like watching YT videos on gold refining --- you have to sort through a whole LOT of CRAP to find a FEW really good informative ones 

And then of course I had to spend some time playing around with the different ideas/methods - & then I had to get busy making stuff up for my first showing (which is tomorrow at a local craft show) including making up my display

The results of what my friends here on the forum (along with other research) are as follows

I went out & bought a vibrator type tumbler with corn cob media which worked well on the small items like ear rings - however - with chains they ended up getting tangled up which I kind of expected (so on the first run I used some old scrap chains to see if they would tangle or not)

So the fire scale problem on the chain ends (about an inch to inch & half) resulting in soldering the jump rings to the chain ends I ended up using Dave's idea being I already have a couple variable speed dremels --- the trick to that was figuring out a way to stretch the chain end out & hold it in place so it didn't flop around

Anyway - here are some pics of my final efforts which will be going on display for my first showing/sales tomorrow  

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 6, 2018)

And the rings


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## nickvc (Apr 6, 2018)

Best of luck Kurt your stock looks good to me and I had a jewellery shop and sold a lot of individual silver pieces.


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## anachronism (Apr 6, 2018)

Wow that lot looks amazing.


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## denim (Apr 6, 2018)

Looks really nice Kurt! Now it is obvious why you have been so quiet on the forum lately. That looks like tedious and very time consuming work.
So where did you get to show off your efforts?
It's good to see that you are doing something that might lead you back to the forum once in awhile. We kind of missed your input lately.
Good luck in your new venture.
Dennis


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## Shark (Apr 6, 2018)

That looks very good. I guess you getting close to your first sale date now.


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## kurtak (Apr 10, 2018)

Sold $510 worth stuff at the first showing

I kept track of the actual weight of the items sold

So - the silver - based on 925 - at silver spot = $115.62

The table cost $25

So - although not great - I feel I did ok considering John Day only has a population of 1,744 & the fact that John Day is the biggest town of the 9 towns in the entire county (John Day has the one & only stop "light" in the county) :lol: 

Based on the traffic I would say out of every 10 that looked - 1 or 2 bought something - & others liked what they saw enough to take a business cards

With summer on the way there are more such craft shows coming up - so we will see

Kurt


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 10, 2018)

Kurt, that's really great! Back in my earliest jewelry making days, I did a lot of shows. There were a few times that I struggled to cover my booth fee and travel expenses. Great result for your first show.

Did you sell any of the silver crystals, or was it all jewelry? You might want to look into buying some of the small glass vials that you can put a nice crystal into, seal the top, then hang it from a chain. Search jewelry vial on feePay.

If things take off for you, you might also want to look into an electric soldering machine. You can buy them, but I built one many years ago for a different hobby. I don't mean a soldering iron. The soldering machine uses a pretty stout transformer to output 12 V DC. The contacts are placed on either side of the joint you're trying to solder. When power is applied, the part heats up FAST and melts the solder. By fast, I mean a second or two on small parts. Because you're "in and out" so fast, the oxidation is very limited, so it should save polishing time. You can also use it at the shows if someone wants a chain shortened. A lot of shows won't permit the use of torches for safety reasons, but a soldering machine will probably be allowed.

If you're interested, I'll try to find mine out in the barn to give you a better idea.

Dave


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## snoman701 (Apr 10, 2018)

I like the jewelry. I used to use flatware as shape donors. You should check out Kevin Potters line of presses. Same idea as the bonny doone presses. Pretty neat stuff.

I like that you are using sterling. So many of the flatware jewelry just uses plated ware, and SO MANY WOMEN can't wear anything that's plated. Always use silver french wires and ear studs and you'll sell so much more. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard from women "I love wearing earrings, but it's so hard to find cute jewelry that's affordable but has silver studs". 

If you don't already have one, using Square or Paypal for credit card vendors increases your sales considerably as well.


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## Shark (Apr 10, 2018)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Kurt, that's really great! Back in my earliest jewelry making days, I did a lot of shows. There were a few times that I struggled to cover my booth fee and travel expenses. Great result for your first show.
> 
> Did you sell any of the silver crystals, or was it all jewelry? You might want to look into buying some of the small glass vials that you can put a nice crystal into, seal the top, then hang it from a chain. Search jewelry vial on feePay.
> 
> ...



I would be interested in it as well.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 10, 2018)

I'll see if I can find it Shark.

Dave


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## Grelko (Apr 10, 2018)

That's some nice work there Kurt 

I'm not sure if you have Renaissance festivals over in your part of the woods, but the ones I've been to around here, would probably buy those rings and bracelets faster than you can put them out.

I've seen some folks paying $500 - $700 for a crappy made aluminum "chain mail" shirt, like it's going out of style. The workers that are dressed like belly dancers and other folks would always buy tons of jewelry. (Especially when it's real silver and not just some plated costume jewelry.)

Edit - I'm sure a lot of them would go nuts over crystals or wire wrap gems.


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## kurtak (Apr 11, 2018)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Great result for your first show.



Thanks Dave



> Did you sell any of the silver crystals, or was it all jewelry? You might want to look into buying some of the small glass vials that you can put a nice crystal into, seal the top, then hang it from a chain. Search jewelry vial on feePay.



No - I did not sell any of the crystals which kinda surprised me - people were however interested in if I had a way to mount them - I will have to look into those vials

I also have a bunch of cut & polished stones (pictured) so plan to do some work with them as well



> If things take off for you, you might also want to look into an electric soldering machine.



I was looking at these in my Romanoff (jewelers supplies) catalog & they run between $235 - 495 so can't justify then at this time



> If you're interested, I'll try to find mine out in the barn to give you a better idea.



Yes - interested

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 11, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> I like the jewelry. I used to use flatware as shape donors. ---- Pretty neat stuff



Hi snoman & thanks --- not sure what you mean by "shape doners' --- is that like a template ? 

Tried looking it up on the web but didn't get any results other then charitable doners



> You should check out Kevin Potters line of presses. Same idea as the bonny doone presses



Looked those up on the web as well - Keven Potters presses had a price tag of $825 & the Bonny Doon presses started at around $2,000 & went over $20,000

Here is a pic of my press - the stamps I have bought so far - & some stamped pieces

I bring the vise down on the stamp which sits on top the silver & then smack the vise handle 2 or 3 times with the big hammer to set the image in the silver --- pulled the vise out of a dumpster at a Granger store about 20 years ago because it had/has a crack in the mounting base so it cost me nothing :shock: :mrgreen: 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 11, 2018)

Grelko said:


> That's some nice work there Kurt
> 
> I'm not sure if you have Renaissance festivals over in your part of the woods, but the ones I've been to around here, would probably buy those rings and bracelets faster than you can put them out.



Locally Renaissance festivals are not a thing here - I live in Cowboy country - there are a LOT of BIG ranches in the area (many 1,000 PLUS acres & some well over 10,000 acres) & as well a lot of active mining goes on here ranging from hobby miners to actual mining operations

Sumpter which is not to far from me has a rich mining history & is a big tourist attraction so plan to hit some of their events --- also have a couple friends out on the coast where I am sure they have Renaissance festivals so will likely look into that being as I have a place to stay out on the coast 

Kurt


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## snoman701 (Apr 11, 2018)

By shape donors I mean the semi-spherical shape of spoons, nicely formed compound curves found in some handles, etc, that you can then pierce and use as overlays to give pieces depth. 

Bonny Doone came out first. The presses were sold in Rio Grande for ridiculous prices and only professional jewelers could afford them. Then Kevin figured out that he could make those presses cheap, all they are is laser cut steel with a hydraulic jack. He used to be a goldsmith until cnc 3d milling took wax carving out of the jewelers hands and in to the hands of casting houses who could turn a 3d model into a wax in an hour. He basically took the presses out of Rio Grande and made it affordable for a much wider audience, with a ton of laser cut silhuoette dies and accessories. He said his target audience was housewives. 

The presses I had you look at are nothing more than a hydraulic jack in a frame, or even just a standard harbor freight hydraulic press. My first one was very poorly welded tube steel and three pieces of 3/4"x4" steel. With your ingenuity, you can put one together. I'd offer to send you my copy of Kingsley, but I'm not entirely sure where it's at. 

https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Die-Forming-Jewelers-Metalsmiths/dp/0963583204

It works like this though. You use the compressive strength but elasticity of a material like urethane to push against a sheet of metal that is formed into the negative space of a die. I used leather scraps as my urethane until I found some really cheap urethane. That die can be as simple as a round circle, and you can create a spherical shape onward to an elliptical shape if you are deep drawing. 

As for your stamps....get yourself a 3 foot stick of O-1 steel and a handful of files. A combination of files and die sinking chisels and your imagination is your limitation. You can heat treat your O1 simply by holding it in front of a torch flame until its non-magnetic then plunging it in to oil.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 11, 2018)

Found it. This is the soldering machine I built about 20 years ago.


I used an old computer power supply to house the whole thing. This was a really old, large supply, long before the ATX standard. The enclosure was huge, but the circuit board inside was small, so there was plenty of room inside. I had to rearrange the internal components a bit to make room for the large transformer that provides the soldering power. The original power supply circuit is just there to run the fan. :roll: I bought the transformer from a salvage/surplus company that used to mail me their catalog, but I don't recall the name. It's huge and heavy and I'm sure very much overkill, but the price was right. I'll hope others can give some guidance on what to look for and where, since I'm not really that knowledgeable on electronics.

There is an on/off switch on the power supply enclosure that turns the unit on and gets the fan running, but there's also a foot pedal to switch the power to the soldering circuit when I was ready to solder. It makes it a lot easier to get things all lined up, put the contacts in the right place, hold things in position, then just press the foot pedal till the solder flows. The foot pedal is wired to the large transformer. As with the transformer, I don't remember where I bought the foot pedal switch.

I looked on eBay and found tattoo foot pedal switches for as low as $3.00. You want a "momentary" switch. When you press the pedal, it switches on. When you take your foot off, it switches off. There are others that turn on when you press them that stay on when you take your foot off. You have to press them again to turn them off. Since this machine works so fast, you want the momentary switch.

I also wired a dimmer switch into the soldering circuit to control the output. It probably wasn't the best solution, but it worked. Most modern dimmer switches are digital and might not work, but mine was an old dimmer, so it served the purpose.

I also pulled a 10 amp circuit breaker out of an old surge suppressor and wired it in for safety. The wiring is straight forward. Power comes in, goes to the switch on the enclosure, then to the circuit breaker, then to the dimmer, then to the foot switch, and finally to the transformer. The output from the transformer goes to the socket that the contact handle plugs into.

The picture below shows the inside of the case. You can see the size of the transformer I used. I don't know if it had to be that big, but I didn't have much information to go on at the time. I built this long before the internet really matured. I did a little checking while writing this, and it looks like there is a lot of information on the web now if you search for homemade or diy resistance soldering machine or unit or something similar.


I built the giant "tweezer" handles that hold the contacts from some thick plexiglas that had the right amount of spring. There are certainly easier ways to go about it, but I've always enjoyed this kind of work. My dad was a machinist, so I grew up with tools in my hands and learned to make whatever I needed.


The contacts are made from arc gouging rods. The rods are carbon inside with a thin layer of copper on the outside for good electrical contact. To hold the contacts in the handle, I fit brass tubing inside the plexiglas that had a slit down the middle, and put set screws near the ends to tighten the tubing onto the contacts. I stripped the copper coating from the ends of the gouging rods and shaped them to a taper with some sandpaper. The contacts slide far into the brass tubing so as they wear, I can slide them out a bit and reshape them many times. The brass tubing is soldered to the power cord I used to connect the handle to the power supply.

The machine I modeled mine after also had a two piece contact system. One contact was a pad that the part was put onto, and the second contact was a probe that was touched to the part where you wanted to generate the heat. I never made one of those since the tweezer style handle worked well for my purposes.

That's what I can remember off the top of my head. If anyone has questions, I'll try my best to answer them.

I did a little searching and found an instructable to make a light duty unit using a PC power supply to power the whole thing. Take a look at Cold Heat Soldering. I also found commercial units available for anywhere from under a hundred dollars to over a thousand.

For more information, search the internet for resistance soldering, cold heat soldering, cold soldering, etc.

Dave


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## Grelko (Apr 11, 2018)

kurtak said:


> I live in Cowboy country - there are a LOT of BIG ranches in the area
> Kurt



What about sterling belt buckles, boot spurs, hat pins, or bridal attachments for people who have show horses.

Edit - Combine 2 forks and make a silver octopus.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 11, 2018)

Nice build, Dave. It gave me some ideas, I really liked the construction of the tweezer with plexiglas body for flexibility and the carbon rods as electrodes.

Thanks for sharing!

Göran


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## Lou (Apr 11, 2018)

Very good thread guys.

I am embarrassed—my jewelery is horrible and my knowledge of electricity limited to silver cells and incandescent bulbs!! Good show everyone.

My only contribution is that I have physically worked with all of the precious metals (most metals/elements). Of course a very rudimentary working (rolling, casting, stamping, etc). Some can’t even be rolled (Os!) or deformed.

That said, Kurt you need to do something in platinum. It is “cheap” now for what it is. What nice stuff to work with in how it welds (to be seen to believe), forms, cleans up and feels weighty etc. if you want ease of fabrication...that’s it. Gummy to machine though. 

Funny because Pt’s sister metals Ru, Os, Ir and even Rh are devils to do much of anything with!


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## kurtak (Apr 12, 2018)

Wow guys - thanks for all the feed back on this 8) :!: :mrgreen: 

Dave - thanks for the info on the soldering machine - now its a question of do I take the time to build one (time is money) or do I just put the money out to buy one --- when I buy stuff like this I tend to buy at the higher end just to save on the head aces that tend to go with buying lower end gear - so Romanoff's high end unit is $500 --- Hmmm :? 



> By shape donors I mean the semi-spherical shape of spoons,



snoman - cool - I have been trying to figure out what to do with the "spoon" part after cutting off the handle to make rings etc. & thanks for the link to the books (as well as the rest of your post) will definitely be picking up the book(s) 8) 



> What about sterling belt buckles, boot spurs, hat pins, or bridal attachments for people who have show horses.



Grelko - yes have had some those items in mind as well - in fact the 2 cut off forks in the first pic of my first post are already planned for (cowboy) hat pins - if nothing else - hat pins for my cowboy hat :mrgreen:



> That said, Kurt you need to do something in platinum. It is “cheap” now for what it is. What nice stuff to work with in how it welds (to be seen to believe), forms, cleans up and feels weighty etc. if you want ease of fabrication...that’s it. Gummy to machine though.



Thanks Lou - besides the soldering machines Romanoff has they also have a unit called the Hydroflux Welder which they claim - "the high temp & clean flame makes this unit ideal for platinum soldering"

Again - its a bit spendy at $1,000 so will have to see where this goes before spending that kind of money

Also I have been "thinking" about setting up for plating (Au Pt & Rh) its a matter of seeing where things go with the sterling first - Romanoff does provide everything for setting up for plating including plating solutions - so we will see  

Kurt


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## nickvc (Apr 12, 2018)

Kurt from my experience of selling unusual silver items the people who buy want large stones in modern settings , they also like diamonds, small ones, set into the silver but not just the crap you can buy everywhere.


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## Lou (Apr 12, 2018)

Kurt,

it's just an O2/H2 torch with gases made stoichiometrically perfect from electrolysis.

My suggestion is that you just buy O2/H2.

I think a T cylinder (336 Cu ft roughly) of Oxygen costs me ~$12 and hydrogen around $30.

That's enough to melt maybe 500 troy of Pt.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 12, 2018)

kurtak said:


> Thanks Lou - besides the soldering machines Romanoff has they also have a unit called the Hydroflux Welder which they claim - "the high temp & clean flame makes this unit ideal for platinum soldering"


I used one at the end of my jewelry days. I think it was an LR Aqua Torch. Really hot flame. Another good way to get in and out quick. The downside was the size of the flame. The torch tips were hypodermic needles that had the tips ground flat. For small jobs it was nice, but it had its limitations.

Dave


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## snoman701 (Apr 12, 2018)

Lou said:


> Kurt,
> 
> it's just an O2/H2 torch with gases made stoichiometrically perfect from electrolysis.
> 
> ...


Is the regulator for H2 just a standard fuel gas with different cga fitting?


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## Lou (Apr 12, 2018)

Pretty much but I always turn off the regulator valve because it's the leakiest gas!


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## snoman701 (Apr 12, 2018)

Lou said:


> .... because it's the leakiest gas!



Spending a day with me after a good night of beer drinking will make you rethink that statement.


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## anachronism (Apr 12, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> Lou said:
> 
> 
> > .... because it's the leakiest gas!
> ...



Try Guinness. What you Americans drink day to day is what you pee when you drink Guinness. 8) 8) 8) :lol: :lol:


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## patnor1011 (Apr 17, 2018)

anachronism said:


> snoman701 said:
> 
> 
> > Lou said:
> ...



True that. :mrgreen:


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## Lou (Apr 20, 2018)

Oh please.

The variety, strength and quality of beer in America today makes both Britain and Ireland look like you drink the pee water now! I'm not talking beer cartel brews. I'm talking micro/craft brews. 

A mile from my house I can go sample over 1000 types of beer. I can sit and see 50 taps with beers ranging from 3% abv Goses or Lambics all the way up to 18% abv IPAs and 21% meads and stouts in between. I won a chili cook off that, regrettably, I do not recall do to some of these beers being forced on a more than willing participant...


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## goldandsilver123 (Apr 22, 2018)

Lou said:


> Kurt,
> 
> it's just an O2/H2 torch with gases made stoichiometrically perfect from electrolysis.
> 
> ...



Does the torch need some modification, or it can be same used in O2/LPG?




A friend of mine brews beer, in small batches, but he's more concern in getting the high alcoholic content (14%).


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## Lou (Apr 22, 2018)

I need to check but I’m pretty sure propane/O2 is compatible with H2/O2. That is not the case with the hotter but sootier C2H2/O2.


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## kurtak (Apr 23, 2018)

Lou said:


> I need to check but I’m pretty sure propane/O2 is compatible with H2/O2. That is not the case with the hotter but sootier C2H2/O2.



Lou - that would be good to know for sure as I already have propane/O2 set up

Kurt


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## snoman701 (Apr 23, 2018)

The torch is compatible, the regulator may or may not be.


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## Lou (Apr 23, 2018)

Went and checked. At least with my torches like that, propane/O2 works and H2/O2 works. Acetylene just pops and cracks and doesn't stay lit. Does that on my propane rosebud too (both H2 and propane seem to burn fine).


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## goldandsilver123 (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks Lou!

I think I'm finally going to buy a H2 cylinder. For a torch and reduction of Rh/Pd/Pt in H2 atmosphere.


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