# 12000 kg of x ray



## yonathan (Dec 17, 2013)

hello all, 
i am from israel and i have
12000 kg of developed medicinal x ray film
and i want to sale them, any ideas?


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 17, 2013)

Are they "wet" or "dry" film? The wet is developed with chemicals and the dry with heat. The two types are often mixed together. Most catscans are of the dry type. The wet developed film contains, on average, 0.22 tr.oz. of silver per kg. The dry usually runs less and is much more difficult to process. It is harder to sell the dry type.


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## yonathan (Dec 17, 2013)

those are wet film. i read a lot in this forum, and i saw the best way for processing is using NaOH to remove the slag
and then melt the slag with borax and etc... but how do i process large amount of film ( more then 100kg a day) ?
threre is a big problem because the film sticks to each other. 
i am a student of chemical engineering who just got a job in recycling
and i need to process the 12 ton or sale them. 

thanks for the help


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 17, 2013)

In production, it is chopped first which results in about 3/8" pieces. Even if they stick to each other, the solution quickly gets in between. I once built a SS perforated tumbler that was lowered into about 350 gallons of solution with a hoist. When I started processing film, I tried running about 100-200 pounds of full sheets in the tumbler at a time. The sheets immediately stuck together. The longer they tumbled, the more the solution worked its way towards the center of the stuck sheets. The amount of silver left was visible because the stripped plastic is transparent. I checked it periodically and you could see the black spot getting smaller. After about 4 hours, the black spots between the sheets was down to about an inch in diameter. Without tumbling, it could take weeks to penetrate to the center of the stuck sheets.

Film processing it one of those things that sounds easy but, in any decent volume, it is quite complex, difficult, and requires a lot of expensive equipment and know how. There are all sorts of pitfalls. Those that try a few sheets in a bucket say, hey, this is really simple. The confidence this gives them is totally false and misleading.

Were I you, I would sell it for about $1- $1.25/pound and go to the next thing. There are private film buyers in every city. Ask the hospitals who buys their film. Also, there is surely a scrap film processing company somewhere in Israel. Processing 30,000 pounds in your backyard or in buckets or drums in a warehouse could take years and you probably wouldn't get all the silver. Greed (wanting to get it all), in this case, could be very costly, both in time and money.

By the way, that is emulsion (a form of gelatin), not slag, that holds the silver on the film.


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## rickbb (Dec 18, 2013)

I did a 100 lb. lot just to learn. It took me 3 weeks working at night and weekends. I ran the film through a paper shredder and processed it in 5 gallon buckets. 

I could have just sold the film for $1 per lb. At $20 a ozt, I wound up with about $180 worth of silver.

If your going to be getting this qty. of film on a regular basis then it might pay you to set up a large scale recovery of it. 

If this was a one shot deal then I suggest you find someplace to just sell it as is.

The method is fairly straight forward, but it's a lot of hard work and unless you have setup a mostly automated and large scale system, (55 gallons at a time at least), your going to lose money when you account for the time spent on it.


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## yonathan (Dec 19, 2013)

Is there a machinery we can invest in to process the x-ray film? and what is the future of this business ( because hospitals stop developing films), what else we can process ? and is it profitable? . I am asking this because we got an offer of 0.82$ for lb in israel


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## yonathan (Dec 19, 2013)

gsp what do you mean by SS perforated tumbler? how does it work and what's it made from? (metals like Aluminum and copper will react with NaOH)


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## nickvc (Dec 19, 2013)

The clue is SS, stainless steel, and the tumbler is basically a big version of a washing machine.
I would heed GSPs warnings and advice about the problems of processing this material as I'm fairly sure he's done large tonnage of this over the years. It's time consuming, takes experience and fairly costly equipment to do large volumes successfully, my opinion phone around and trade it for the best terms you can get.


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## yonathan (Dec 19, 2013)

what about the option of useing bleach fix on the film to get the silver and then to use a silver recovery unit which work on the electrolytic current principle? is it a good idea for a medium scale operation?


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## nickvc (Dec 19, 2013)

I foresee the same problems trying to get the sheets to separate so the chemicals can react and do their job, hence shredding and tumbling. I think I'd still look around for the best price and sell on. There's company's here in the UK who buy this material and I have no doubt some closer to you give them a call and negotiate 8)


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## rickbb (Dec 19, 2013)

Bleach will not do large volumes of film. The reaction of dissolving the emulsion will cause the bleach to turn into NaOH. I tried this method as well. Using 1 gallon of 5% household bleach in 3 gallons of water the bleach died after 7 lbs. of film. At that rate you will spend more money on bleach than you will get back in silver. This method also creates silver chloride which cannot be recovered with an electrolytic unit. You'd still have to convert it to metallic silver chemically.

You may not be able to buy equipment made to do this, you will have to make most of it or adapt similar industrial equipment to suit your needs.

AND, unless you can continue to get large volumes of film you will not be in a position to recover your costs on it.

Most hospitals and medical offices are going to digital x-ray, recovering film is a dying business model. Not really a future in setting up another business to compete with existing companies.

$.82 lb. is a fair price, If it were me I'd take it. One phone call, they pick it up and hand you a check.

Not trying to discourage you, this is the same advise I was given after all and I went ahead and did my own anyway. :lol: 

_edited to correct spelling, etc._


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 19, 2013)

yonathan said:


> gsp what do you mean by SS perforated tumbler? how does it work and what's it made from? (metals like Aluminum and copper will react with NaOH)



It was a perforated drum from a big industrial SS (stainless steel - non magnetic type) clothes drier. It was maybe 30" X 30". We sealed the open end of the tumbler with steel sheet, cut about a 15"W x 12"H door in the side, hinged the piece we cut out and made it so it would lock closed until I opened it for loading and unloading. Ran about a 1.25" - 1.5" steel shaft (axle) through it, used about 4" squares of 1" thick teflon for bearings and for pieces of welded angle iron to hold the bearings in place. The Teflon was a scrap piece about 8"x10"x1" obtained from a company that sold plastic sheet, tubing, rod, etc., for about $100. Used a heavy chain and sprockets to drive it, probably about 5 rpm. Mounted it all on an angle iron frame with an eye at the top for a hoist hook. My main man welded it all together in about a day. Very simple construction. Very strong and efficient. Never broke down in the 2 years I used it. The only materials that were touched by the caustic were SS, mild steel, and Teflon.

The tank was a commercial SS milk storage tank about 5 or 6 feet long with a rounded bottom. Under the tank were copper cooling coils. We removed the cooler and recirculated hot water through the coils, using a small $100 pump from an Ag supply, through a hot water tank. We got the solution to 140F in about an hour or two. If I remember right, we put a timer of the pump so the solution was hot when we got to work. The tank capacity was about 375 gallons, brim full. My refinery was in a building in a scrap metals yard and much of the refining equipment was bought for scrap metal prices. A farmer brought in the milk storage tank. I think we paid him $9 for the stainless.

For awhile, we used a 10% caustic soda (sodium hydroxide) solution. However, as the tumbler turned, it would throw drips on us and we had to wear a lot of hot safety clothing, etc. We soon switched to a safer commercial enzyme/sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) solution that was easier to live with. Both solutions ran at about 120F - 140F and both stripped at the same rate. With the film chopped up, it took about 20 min. to strip. We had 2 steel rinse tanks in line with the main tank. Using the hoist, we tumbled in each rinse tank for 2 or three minutes. Every so often, we harvested the sludge from the rinse tanks.

The best film chopper has a shear action. With it, the pieces (about 3/8") are flat. An industrial paper shredder will work but the strips end up twisted and wavy. The bulk density of the chopped film is about 6 times higher than the film that goes through a paper shredder. In other words, if you used a paper shredder, as opposed to a chopper, you'll only be able to put about 1/6 as much film in the tumbler.

Against the wall behind the tank, we had a very heavy duty stand with a long shelf about 6' above the floor. On the shelf were 6 plastic 55gal drums with the tops cut out. The drums all had plastic bulkhead adapters mounted about 1.5-2" from the bottom. At night, we pumped all the solution from the tank into the drums. The tank was originally built with a tilt towards a drain. On the outside end of the tank near the bottom was a valve and a thingy to mount the drain hose to, so all the sludge was also pumped into the drums. If I remember right, we hand stirred the solution to keep the sludge suspended while we pumped it out, at least for the last bit. 

The next morning, the sludge was settled in the drums. We then put plastic tubing on the bulkhead adapters and drained the solution back into the tank. We reused the same solution for a long long time with occasional chemical additions. When using the caustic, we analyzed the solution using a simple acid/base titration and added enough caustic to bring it back up to 10%. With the enzyme solution, no analysis was used. We just added 400ml of enzyme solution (that's all it took) every morning and added some baking soda periodically. The only purpose of the baking soda was to buffer the solution at a constant pH - about 8,5, if I remember right. 

We then transferred the sludge to buckets, filtered it, incinerated it, melted it with borax and soda ash, and poured it into cast iron molds. After quenching and breaking the slag away from the bars, they weighed about 200-400 tr.oz. each. The silver on film is quite pure. If you have done nothing to contaminate it with other metals, the silver should be at least 999.
________________________________________ 

Like Rick said, you really should consider taking the $.82. However, it sounds like that offer was from a middle-man buyer who will sell the film to a scrap film refiner. If you can find a company that actually refines the film, you would probably get more for it - maybe as much as $1.25/# at a $20 silver market price.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 19, 2013)

About 30 years ago, I briefly experimented using weak hydrochloric (10% v/v) to remove the silver/emulsion from film. It worked fast and quite well at room temp and seemed to totally convert the silver AgCl. But, I surely don't want to deal with a huge mass of AgCl. I'll stick with NaOH. It works with every type of film, including Dryview.


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Dec 19, 2013)

Yonathan:

I do not intend to contradict all what GSP and Rickbb have said.The advice that they have told you is right...but I know that you want to recover all that silver,well...let us go upstairs for a ride.

You can process more than 100 kg/day using bleach/NaOH process which works at room temperature, but you have got to cut the film(5x7 in,at least),buy 2 washing machines( 20 kg/ load),five 55 gal. drums and you need plenty of room.

Besides,you need a propane/oxygen torch,bravery and courage.If you want to try it I will help you.Last summer I processed 5 tons of microfilms with this process,I got fun and money,of course,I wasted my money in women,cigars,whisky and so for,but it is up to me.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## yonathan (Dec 20, 2013)

Thank you all for your time and effort.

I believe that we will try to refine it our salve, because my boss want to start a recycling business for e-scrap and ect and the main objective is not only to get the most $ for the 12 ton and it's ok by him to invest in equipment to get a working line for recycling x ray film fixers and ect . I understand that the business module for making such a line is very problematic because hospitals stop using x-ray films, but on the other hand there are not many business that recycle x ray films in Israel ( we found two) . and what value do I have as a chemical engineer if may solution is to sale the raw material instead of processing it 

I spoke to a German company that sales electro units
http://www.utecgmbh.com/filmtechnik/silver-recovery-units
and they said to put the shredded x-ray film in bleach-fix and then when the solution is saturated run it throw the machine and that they will give me the recipe for the bleach-fix. Is bleach-fix the same as bleach (Sodium hypochlorite, NaClO)?

Also some one tried to mix the shredded x-ray film with just throwing it in a tank and in the bottom of the tank to put a hose that is connected to a compressor, and the bubbles from the hose will mix the shredded x-ray, or is it not realistic solution ? or maybe to mix it with a pump that will run the solution to the bottom of the tank mixing the shredded x-ray and drawing it from the top of the tank?

What is the density of x ray films (kg/m^3) ? maybe we can adjust the density of the solution so the x-ray will float 

So many options … 

Thank you all once again


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 20, 2013)

yonathan said:


> Thank you all for your time and effort.
> 
> I believe that we will try to refine it our salve, because my boss want to start a recycling business for e-scrap and ect and the main objective is not only to get the most $ for the 12 ton and it's ok by him to invest in equipment to get a working line for recycling x ray film fixers and ect . I understand that the business module for making such a line is very problematic because hospitals stop using x-ray films, but on the other hand there are not many business that recycle x ray films in Israel ( we found two) . and what value do I have as a chemical engineer if may solution is to sale the raw material instead of processing it
> 
> ...



That can work. The bleach-fix contains a chemical, probably ferric chloride, which converts the black silver to silver chloride. It also contains sodium thiosulfate (hypo) which then dissolves the silver chloride. The ferric chloride is the bleach component. It is needed because hypo won't dissolve the black metallic silver. It first must be converted to silver chloride. The plating unit pictured has rotating SS drum cathodes. The silver deposits on the drums and can get as thick as 1/4". This silver is brittle and is easily removed from the drum by tapping on it with a hammer and breaking it into pieces. The silver isn't pure. It will contain some sulfur compounds. The purity will probably range from about 85% to 97%, the remainder being sulfur. The higher the purity, the harder the deposit will be. At the lower purity, the deposit can form a black smelly sludgy silver sulfide which can fall off the cathode. The purity mainly depends on the current and the amount of silver in the bleach-fix. At first, with a lot of silver in the solution, the deposit will be at its highest purity. As the silver plates out and less is in the solution, the purity of the deposit will drop. The idea is to maintain the the silver concentration in the solution as high as possible and, when it gets low, to lower the current accordingly. 

The simplest way to remove the sulfur is to melt the silver with some borax along with a few lengths of steel rebar sticking up out of the crucible (long enough so they can be easily removed before pouring). The iron combines with the sulfur and transfers it to the slag. 

For best efficiency, I still think you'll have to tumble the chopped film. I also think that the bleach-fix solution can be rejuvenated and re-used. 

This method is fairly straight forward but it is not that easy to get 100% of the silver with it. It is a balancing act. 

The density of the PET plastic is 1.38 and floating it off would be extremely difficult. If you have a tumbler somewhat as I described, the stripped film chips stay in the tumbler. To separate the film from the silver solution, all you have to do is lift the tumbler out and rinse it a couple of times.


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## Esau Nisalile (Jan 24, 2014)

Hi Manuel,
Thanx for your generousite in aducating us in silver recovery and refinery. L apprwciate and respect.
Iam in Yonathan situation, although not 12 tones but in the tune. Iam from east africa. I have made a trial recovery on 80kgs and all went well. I recovered about 290grams of silver and xrf assay results were 98%.
Iam ready to go for big processing. L own oxypropane set, have bought the washimg machines and tjhe 55gal drums. please advise process steps.
Ln my recovery above I used NaoH strip, leave liquid settle, decant, dry mud, incenerate, then melt with borax using oxypropane.
All this was learnt from your preciuos posts.
Thanx again.
Best regards,
Esau.


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## Esau Nisalile (Jan 26, 2014)

Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:


> Yonathan:
> 
> I do not intend to contradict all what GSP and Rickbb have said.The advice that they have told you is right...but I know that you want to recover all that silver,well...let us go upstairs for a ride.
> 
> ...


:
Hi Manuel,
lam ready to use your process, please give me the step by step directions. In my case I used NaOH method. 
Brgs,
Esau.


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## Lou (Jan 26, 2014)

Please learn how to read other posts; this subject has been covered to death, PDFs made, instructions listed many, many times.

Use the search function. Thank you for your cooperation in doing your own research and welcome to the forum.


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## Esau Nisalile (Jan 27, 2014)

Lou said:


> Please learn how to read other posts; this subject has been covered to death, PDFs made, instructions listed many, many times.
> 
> Use the search function. Thank you for your cooperation in doing your own research and welcome to the forum.


Thanx Lou,
I do search a lot and have learnt many things thanks to every one for the sharing,only wanted clarification where washing machines comes in the processing of bulky material.
Brgs,
Esau.


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Jan 27, 2014)

Esau:

Look...in this moment I am in Mexico City doing some bussines,at night I will go back to my town(Pachuca) and I will post the process,step by step,for you.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## Esau Nisalile (Jan 29, 2014)

Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:


> Esau:
> 
> Look...in this moment I am in Mexico City doing some bussines,at night I will go back to my town(Pachuca) and I will post the process,step by step,for you.
> 
> ...


Hey Manuel,
Thanx in advance. Always so kind.
Have a nice trip.
Regards,
Esau


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## moose7802 (Jan 29, 2014)

Your a good guy Manuel, for taking the time to rewrite the steps that I know you have already written here before. Hopefully Esau will send you a nice box of cigars for your trouble. 

Tyler


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## Esau Nisalile (Jan 29, 2014)

moose7802 said:


> Your a good guy Manuel, for taking the time to rewrite the steps that I know you have already written here before. Hopefully Esau will send you a nice box of cigars for your trouble.
> 
> Tyler


Hi Tyler,
I have already read so many Manuels posts and practiced them and made nice silver recovery, but this is about recovering from bulky material..
If someone has done it the easy route, then following it will be beneficial than reinventing the wheel.
Iam so exited about the project, when Iam done will share the results.
Brgs,
Esau.


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## moose7802 (Jan 29, 2014)

I understand. No need to explain yourself, I can't wait to see the pictures of the big Ag bars when you are done. 

Tyler


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Feb 4, 2014)

Esau:

I offer an apology...when I was in Mexico City a leggy, young and pretty girl put her eyes on me and....I stayed in Mexico City for 2 days!!!!!.

I am trying to get back to the real life and here it is all I have for you.

First of all you have to read carefully this patent.On my next post I will describe the process I used,step by step.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Feb 4, 2014)

OK,let us start .A washing machine is needed.It costs,in Mexico 3000 pesos(231 USD),you can take a look in this link:

http://www.elektra.com.mx/Elektra/MuestraProducto.aspx?sku=89092#.UvGc7GJ5NH4

1.- Cut the film,I used a 5x7 inches size.

2.-I used the following(for each kg of film):
8.3 lt of tap water
20 gr. of NaOH flakes
432 ml of sodium hypochlorite

3.-Fill the washing machine with water,add NaOH and NaOCl,turn on the washing machine and let NaOH and NaOCl to dissolve.Turn spin control to low and add the film ,once you have finished adding the film then turn spin control to maximun,put the cap over the washing machine and wait 15 minutes.All the films will be clean.Pour off the black solution,it contains,silver,gelatine and organic matter.

4.- Put the black solution in a 200 lt vessel and let it settles down for a night...go to sleep.

5.- In the morning you will see a black mud on the bottom,pour off the liquid(you can reuse this water 2 times),filter the mud and dry it.

6.-Mix the dryed mud with its own weight of sodium carbonate and heat it to 500 C,a crust will be formed,break it and continue heating until all the mixture becomes a crust,at this point you will see many nice white balls of silver,add some borax and rise temperature to 1100 C until silver gets liquid,pour off the flux and cast your silver into an ingot.

Protect your eyes using googles,protect your hands using gloves,an apron is needed too.

If the going gets rough let me know

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## Esau Nisalile (Feb 5, 2014)

Hi Manuel,
Thanks fot your kindness. I hope the lady treated you nice. After the processing I hope I will be in a position to fly to mexico and experience your enjoyment.
The post is wonderful and very clear, now it is up to me. Thanx very much again..
Brgs,
Esau.


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## Patry0t (Sep 8, 2016)

any followup on this topic? Can we see the result of the israely and african processes? 
How much pure silver was recovered?


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