# Safety notice



## Geo (Feb 27, 2017)

For anyone who may care, Ken was diagnosed with copper toxicity. His blood showed a very high copper concentration. Due to a pre-existing condition, standard chelation therapy may not be an option. He may have to undergo a procedure where they remove the blood and chelate it outside the body and filter the blood before returning it. According to what he was told, this may have been an accumulative event. He and I will be going over what he did and how this can be avoided. As long as there's not a problem with it here, I will keep an update about his condition as I and all his friends wish him a speedy recovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillamine


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## Tndavid (Feb 27, 2017)

Prayers sent!!!


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## Long Shot (Feb 27, 2017)

Geo,

You are a gentleman and a great ambassador. I don't post much anymore just follow and one of those has been the banning of this guy. Whether one agrees or disagrees it was apparent that some felt there was a medical condition involved. I don't know anything about copper toxicity or the man's issues but as we age and things develop we all will face challenges. The best we can hope for is understanding and support even if it is trying.

Jeff


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 27, 2017)

Sorry to hear that Geo.

Members take warning. Everything we do is hazardous.

Dave


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## 4metals (Feb 27, 2017)

Thanks Geo for the update, it would be interesting to know how he was exposed to the copper, I have never heard of this before amongst refiners and I know a lot of them. 

Please post the details when you know.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 27, 2017)

I wish him a speedily recovery, the treatment didn't sound fun.

Copper taste so bitter that it is unlikely that you could ingest a large dose in one go, it is more possible that it is a small dose over long time. What is his water supply? Local or municipal? Vegetables close to storage of scrap electronics outside?
It could be as easily as copper piping in his house.

Keep us posted on his progress and if you find out anything about the source.

Göran


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## Geo (Feb 28, 2017)

As far as we can tell right now, it was from exposure to AP solution. I deal with it more than most, I would assume, because I use it in fifty five gallon drums at a time. I have always taken care to wear gloves and rinse everything really well before handling it with my bare hands. Also, he has had a previous illness that effected his liver in the past and that may be why his body is not getting rid of the copper faster than he is exposed. The chemicals that the body uses to remove copper from the blood is the same chemicals the brain uses to regulate certain activities inside the brain. Copper toxicity shares some of the same symptoms of some psychological disorders. I posted the link from wiki which is a pretty good read about it. I knew what symptoms he was complaining of and I was convinced it was kidney stones. Lower back pain to one side. Feeling of needing to go all the time. There was other symptoms as well. He went this past Monday for some tests and his doctor knows of Ken's hobby. He ordered blood test at the time. The test came in today (2/27) and it was copper toxicity. 

Another route that copper can get in the body, and the fastest, is through the lungs. The aerosolized solution created by adding air to the solution is especially dangerous. It is absorbed as soon as it enters the lungs.

I don't normally wear a respirator when dealing with AP, but I will from now on. I will have my doctor test for copper on my next visit, out of an abundance of caution.


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## anachronism (Feb 28, 2017)

I just read this. I too wish him all the best.

Jon


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 28, 2017)

I pray that Ken is able to overcome this.


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## snoman701 (Feb 28, 2017)

Any welding in his history?

Hope all is remedied quickly and painlessly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## butcher (Feb 28, 2017)

Thank You, Geo for keeping us informed. Wishing Ken a speedy recovery


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2017)

I spoke with Ken today. He said that it's been months since he worked with any AP solution. After discussing it, he said the only copper he has had contact with was the gold he inquarted a few weeks ago. I asked how it was melted. He said his brother melted it with a torch. I asked if it smoked and he said it did. His brother wore a respirator but he didn't. He said he stood about ten feet away but the wind would blow the smoke around him and he said he smelled the metallic smell from it a few times. He said the entire event took about ten to fifteen minutes. Is that long enough to inhale enough copper fumes to cause toxicity? If not, it was an accumulative effect. If this is true, he has been poisoned for quite some time. He sees the hematologist next week. He will know more about what they can do. Since the chelating material is derived from penicillin, he may not be able to take it as he is allergic to penicillin. That is the reason for the "blood scrub" as his doctor called it.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 1, 2017)

Like I said before, I pray that Ken can overcome this. I don't wish illness on anyone. I don't know whether the source is the AP solutions and/or fumes. Whatever, it was obviously due to Ken's incompetence. Hopefully, others will learn from this. Safety must always be #1 when determining what process should be used on a given amount of scrap. The best way to learn safety is on THIS forum. Probably 90% of the processes on youtube contain unsafe portions. The other, safe 10% of the videos are mainly composed by longtime members of this forum. The GRF, and only the GRF, due to it's shear volume of information and expertise, is THE clearing house for all things about PM scrap and refining on the internet.

Here's a thread on metal fumes. I would guess these are the source of Ken's situation. 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=20008&p=204255&hilit=metal+fume#p204255


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## Lou (Mar 1, 2017)

Somehow melting copper doesn't seem like enough exposure.

I've melted tons (as in metric tons) of copper and bronze and I can't say I was particularly careful.

Never had an issue and I get metals panel done every year for work.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 1, 2017)

Lou said:


> Somehow melting copper doesn't seem like enough exposure.
> 
> I've melted tons (as in metric tons) of copper and bronze and I can't say I was particularly careful.
> 
> Never had an issue and I get metals panel done every year for work.


I agree. I just can't see how he would get it from the AP solution either, unless he drank it or swam in it. If it was steaming hot or gassing, I guess it could carry some copper solution into the air. For many years, I worked in places that melted huge quantities of metal (mainly copper) from incinerated circuit boards. In best cases, the furnaces were in large rooms with high ceilings and the exhaust was usually large 4-5' fans set up in open overhead doors. Still, I saw many workers that had to constantly fiddle with the melts and pours and, like 4 metals, I have never seen anyone with a case of copper poisoning. However, people might of had it and not know it.

It's almost as though something happened with Ken that we don't know about. Maybe one single event.


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## upcyclist (Mar 1, 2017)

I wish him luck and a speedy recovery. Copper poisoning is rough.

Another source of copper poisong for lapidary types is working with malachite, azurite, etc. Some wear particulate masks, I advise others to at least keep it wet while grinding it. This is more of an aside, to show other sources, than any thought of it being part of Ken's copper intake.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 1, 2017)

Copper is really hard to get poisoned from. It has to be long term exposure or a problem in Ken's metabolism.

Whatever the reason, it shows all the "safe" or "ecological" ways of dissolving copper with vinegar and salt still has it's dangers, dissolved copper is toxic and if it comes out into the ecosystem it can come back and bite you big time.

Göran


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## 4metals (Mar 1, 2017)

The only direct correlation to serious health effects from fumes encountered in commercial refining that was documented was at a smelter in Sweden called Boliden. And news of the problem wasn't widespread, in fact Goran told me about it on this forum. Bad enough for them to shut down the refinery and rebuild it. 

if I remember correctly, the septum in their noses actually disintegrated from it. I cannot find the link but possibly Goran can bail me out here.


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## anachronism (Mar 1, 2017)

Try this one for size 4metals.

https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/53ff04a3-fc9b-4e53-94e0-a4ec6040ec3e


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## 4metals (Mar 1, 2017)

That was the facility, thank you Jon.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Mar 1, 2017)

I hope Ken gets the help he truly needs...


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## 4metals (Mar 1, 2017)

Back in the day I had 3 fire assayers working full time and everyone was concerned about lead exposure. So in addition to exhaust, rubber gloves, and preventing exposure we bought these supplements from Legend called Bio DeTox which supposedly removed, by chelation, heavy metals from the body. They all were provided with the pills and no one ever complained about it or said anything bad about the product. And no one had elevated blood lead issues either. Legend has stopped carrying the pills and I do not know why but there is a large part of the scientific community that feels heavy metal chelation therapy has its benefits.


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## Lou (Mar 1, 2017)

In short, I don't buy that Ken poisoned himself with refining. I call BS on that in a big way as I don't see suffiicient mass transport.


I made an offer on the other forum to do a time study on Ken's hair with ICP-MS.
I also have several industrial hygienists I can communicate with regarding this matter.


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## kurtak (Mar 1, 2017)

Lou said:


> In short, I don't buy that Ken poisoned himself with refining. I call BS on that in a big way as I don't see suffiicient mass transport.
> 
> I agree
> 
> ...



I have suffered metal fume fever (a few times) in the past

A few years ago a local scrap yard started hiring me 2 or 3 times a month to cut stainless steel with a plasma cutter - I am talking cutting 30,000 - 40,000 pounds of SS in a day --- for the next few days after cutting the SS I would feel like crap (flu like symptoms) at the time I didn't realize what was going on

Then - "luckily" (I think it was like after third time cutting the SS) GSP posted about metal fume fever (he provide a link in one of his other post) which made me realize what was going on



So I went & got some EDTA - now when I do a day of SS plasma cutting (nickel/chrome fumes) or a lot of welding - or a day of smelting I take the EDTA at the end of the day & for the next couple days & have not suffered the effects of metal fume fever since as a result of taking the EDTA

Because EDTA also chelates essential minerals like potassium & calcium - after taking the EDTA for a "few" days - I then follow that up by taking a potassium pill a calcium pill & a one a day vitamin for a few days to replace those essentials

Edit to add: - the point being - as Lou pointed out --- there is a big difference between spending "all day" breathing metal fumes (sufficient mass transport) & melting a "few" oz of copper

Kurt


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2017)

I also think that Ken has been effected by this for a long time. I think it was accumulative. When I asked him about how he treated the AP when he first started using it, he said he would sometimes put his bare hands into the solution up to his elbows. I have gotten the solution on my skin before and you can't just wash it off with soap. I have used Oxyclean and it does a good job of taking it off the skin. Another good thing to get it off your skin is chlorine bleach. The best thing is not to get it on your skin to begin with. Ken also has liver damage from his time in the military. He contracted a water borne pathogen that attacked his liver. His body is not able to metabolize certain stuff like a healthy person can. After studying on the effects that copper toxicity has on the human body, I understand certain things about Ken's behavior now that I was questioning before. Hopefully, the hematologist will have good news and he can put all of this behind him.


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## Lou (Mar 1, 2017)

He agreed to send hair.


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## anachronism (Mar 1, 2017)

Ok excuse my candour but this is crap. 

This materialises after all the stuff that's gone on and we're supposed to buy it. I know that I don't know everything but I really don't like it when someone assumes that people are stupid. 

Geo seriously man, got a lot of time for you but stop making excuses for the guy. Please, it degrades this forum.

Jon


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## 4metals (Mar 1, 2017)

> When I asked him about how he treated the AP when he first started using it, he said he would sometimes put his bare hands into the solution up to his elbows. I have gotten the solution on my skin before and you can't just wash it off with soap.



This is the same guy who shut down threads by calling out the OP for being unsafe? :shock: 

Quite the safety example, ya think!!!!!!


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 1, 2017)

From what I've seen in the last month or so, his incompetence knows no bounds.


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2017)

Everybody starts out ignorant. That doesn't mean that we are incapable of learning. I am not making excuses, and I don't want to cause another distraction. I started this thread with "For anyone who may care". If you don't care, then don't care, simple as that. If someone has poisoned themselves by something they have done while refining, I would assume that there would be some interest in the topic. I didn't start this thread to garner sympathy for Ken. That wasn't my intention at all. Any well wishes are appreciated by me and they were forwarded to Ken. If you do or don't like Ken has no bearing on the situation whatsoever. I said that we would be going over what he might have done to have caused this and that I would give updates when I can. Until I'm told by a moderator otherwise, I'll continue to update this thread. Would it have been better if I had said, "some guy I know" rather than call him by name? 

This isn't made up and it's not bogus. He is far from out of the woods with this. The standard treatment for copper toxicity it a medicine that is derived from penicillin and he is allergic to penicillin. He is in constant pain and doesn't have the strength to get around well for the fatigue. If you don't want to comment in the positive, then ignore it altogether please.


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## anachronism (Mar 1, 2017)

Geo

I do care, do not doubt that.

But this is all very convenient given recent events and that makes me cynical. You have had masters of refining all saying they can't see this as a problem or explanation for Ken's paranoid behaviour so maybe you need to listen more.


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2017)

Jon, it sounds like you are calling me a liar. I hope that I am misinterpreting what you said. I have nothing against you personally. I find you very abrasive. You are also a person that I would call "very hard to like". Dry humor is not humor when your the only one laughing. I have also noticed that when you take a disliking to someone, they are not on the forum for much longer. Am I next? You certainly have a majority of the mods behind you. You could push the issue and get a vote to ban me. It wouldn't be out of the question.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 1, 2017)

4metals said:


> The only direct correlation to serious health effects from fumes encountered in commercial refining that was documented was at a smelter in Sweden called Boliden. And news of the problem wasn't widespread, in fact Goran told me about it on this forum. Bad enough for them to shut down the refinery and rebuild it.
> 
> if I remember correctly, the septum in their noses actually disintegrated from it. I cannot find the link but possibly Goran can bail me out here.


Correct company Jon, but wrong plant and incident.

This is the original post http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=23689#p250650

It was more than 50 years ago they had the problem of people losing the cartilage in their noses from exposure to arsenic trioxide, some people claiming it formed arsenic acid when it mixed with moisture in the nose.
I have tried to find an online reference but the only document I've found was a Swedish report of workplace accidents from 1933. Sweden was early with digitizing their documents.  
http://www.bjellum.se/7Nolbrea/debatter/boliden.htm

The rebuild of the smelting plant linked in my original post was to modernize the plant, the problem with arsenic damages was solved long before that.
As an interesting but totally irrelevant fact, the father and grandfather of Stig Larsson (author of "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo") both worked at the Rönnskär plant and both had their noses collapsed by losing the cartilage.

... after two hours of googling and reading I finally found "An Outbreak of
Arsenical Dermatoses in a Mining Community", http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/article-abstract/529157


> Bronchitis and irritation of other parts of the respiratory tract due to heavy exposure to arsenic trioxide was described as Ronnskar disease from the gold smelting works at Ronnskar, Sweden.


accompanied with a picture of a stick poking through the nose of a guy.

This is the final article I found. (referenced from above) https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/19522700778 published in 1965, but I don't seem to be able to penetrate that paywall.

Göran


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## 4metals (Mar 1, 2017)

There are some raw nerves here and there is no sense in pouring salt on an open wound. 

No one is going to be banned for this conversation. I think most have a serious concern for Ken's condition. I just don't think a lot of members buy it as justification for bad behavior. 

And Geo, you seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. I commend you for sticking up for your friend, it says a lot about your character, and I, for one, would never shoot the messenger. 

So let's keep this thread about Ken's progress and or diagnosis of his condition.


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## anachronism (Mar 1, 2017)

Geo

You're not a liar. You have far too much integrity to be that. In case you didn't realise this I have always held you in the highest regard. 

However please stop it right off with the paranoid crap, there's a good section of the mods who would happily see me gone so that theory doesn't fly.

You say abrasive? Well listen here and listen good to some abrasiveness. I've bitten my tongue and listened to the well timed revelations about Ken's sudden excuse for being a complete knob and frankly it doesn't wash. Others can comment but they don't get your vitriol so why do I? 

Get the guy off dependence upon prescription drugs and until you do, stop being a patsy apologist for a guy who has publicly behaved like a complete fruitcake.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 1, 2017)

Oh boy... something blew up while I was writing my last post.

Geo, I don't see anyone calling you a liar. With my perspective (looking across the pond) I don't know if you are a personal friend and have visited Ken lately or not. Based on your location I have a hard time thinking you have just popped over for a beer and looking at the test results your self. If what you are writing is based on talk over the phone or via mail then I can only see that you are passing on what Ken has told you. If ken is giving you false information then it is Ken that is lying, not you.

Lou, who probably live close to Ken, have offered to do a spectroscopic analyze on his hair. That would be a great solution because it would tell us if it was an ongoing low level exposure or a large short exposure. It will also show if there is any copper in his body.
If Ken doesn't accept the very generous offer his claim of being poisoned by copper would be in serious doubt.

I suggest we calm down and awaits the results. I know, we live in the "Instant Internet" age, but sometimes we need to have patience, not only in refining.

And keep us posted Geo, at least I'm interested to know the outcome. If there is a real danger with the copper chloride process then everyone is better off to learn about it.

Jon, don't shoot the messenger, please.

Göran


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## anachronism (Mar 1, 2017)

Goran

No I won't shot the messenger. Geo seriously please listen to what I said Sir.

Jon


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## g_axelsson (Mar 1, 2017)

anachronism said:


> Goran
> 
> No I won't shot the messenger. Geo seriously please listen to what I said Sir.
> 
> Jon


... not shot the messenger... just digest him whole? :shock: :lol: 

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 1, 2017)

Why are you draaaagging this thing on, Geo? He's gone from this forum, never to return, if I have anything to say about it. I hope he gets well. On the other hand, I detest the man.


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2017)

Understood Chris. I respect your opinion. What you say about Ken, I can't defend and wont even try. I do understand that Ken wasn't disliked by a lot of the members here. There are still a few that are members there. Members that's here but do not share membership may be interested. I don't want to offend you so I must think about what I am trying to say. Is there a rule that forbids discussing banned members, as long as all other rules are observed?

Believe me, if it had been anyone else with the same symptoms and no really apparent cause outside of normal activity, it wouldn't have made a difference. I would have posted about it anyway. Perhaps not about someone like Poe but that's only because there's no way to verify it. If I could verify that Poe had poisoned himself, I would have burned the keyboard up making that post.

Ken and I spoke about it and I asked him to send me a copy of the toxicology report. I really didn't like asking someone to share something so personal but I can see no way to prove my innocence without it. He said I should have it by lunch tomorrow. I'll black out all the info that is not needed and post it here. Maybe then it will help solve the mystery.

This is the mystery. Ken has copper toxicity. All his plumbing is pvc. They don't own copper cookware. All of their utensils are stainless steel. The only source of copper of real interest is what he was working with. I asked him several different times whether he could have drank some of the solution. He says he never carries drinks outside, not even a cup of coffee.

As far as the symptoms, I am citing wikipedia. They list all the stuff I said.


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## Geo (Mar 1, 2017)

As a side note Chris, Ken said that he overreacted when he banned you and he really regrets it. You are welcome to come back over anytime, if you ever decide to. Ken says you have his number, call if you ever want to.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 2, 2017)

I'll pass! I want no part of his crappy forum.


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## Geo (Mar 2, 2017)

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=167&contentid=total_copper_blood


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## g_axelsson (Mar 2, 2017)

20% higher than normal range isn't too severe. It might explains his abdominal pains but I don't think it can be classified as "severe" and lead to mental disorder.

Ken's actions are his own and as far as I'm concerned, he will have to face the consequences of them.

But I do wish him a speedily recover and I hope the treatment won't cause him too much distress.

Now... the interesting question is, was it caused by his refining activities? It will be hard to tell with any confidence, but it can serve as a cautionary tale so no one else has to go through the same ordeal. I know I will be more careful around copper solutions from now on.

Göran


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## nickvc (Mar 2, 2017)

Goran I think we should be careful around all solutions with metals dissolved in them and as you say this may be the wake up call for the members to take heed of.


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## Geo (Mar 2, 2017)

I do apologize for sidetracking this thread. I am not trying to champion a cause or make excuses for bad behavior. I was simply pointing out some of the symptoms. Nor was I trying to garner sympathy for Ken. It was brought to my attention that some members thinks that it was the whole point of this thread. I am aware that nothing I can say will change this perception and for that, I apologize. I am concerned for everyone's well being. Without knowing the cause and ruling out all the mundane sources and causes leaves only one possibility. Ken was poisoned by what he was doing when refining. The fact that he has compromised health issues should also concern members. If you have certain conditions, the dangers in what we do could be magnified to the point where no safety precautions are enough. 

I have heard the concerns of the few, and the many. I will refrain from posting on this until something definitive is found one way or another. If the situation changes or if the cause is determined, I will post it here.


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## aga (Mar 2, 2017)

As with most naturally occurring substances, Cu is involved in the body's chemistry, and is ingested in trace amounts with food.

If some mechanism has been disrupted in Ken's body by some disease, then elevated Cu levels, amongst other things, can happen. It could be genetic.

As far as this thread is concerned, the relevant issue is whether Copper Toxicity should be a serious concern for a refiner, rather than who hates/likes Ken.

As feeling human beings, i don't believe that anyone is truly happy that Ken is ill.

(Personally i have no problem with Ken, Jon, Geo, or anyone - Yet !)


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## snoman701 (Mar 5, 2017)

So when I first started doing any "outside of the classroom" chemistry work, I was working with some particularly bad neurotoxins. Actually, I don' tknow if they were or not, I just know that I *thought* they were.

In that, I taught myself to work within a very tight sterile field, without knowing that was what it was called at that point. I'm anal about it. Very anal. A lot of the surgeons that I worked with later in life were quite surprised that someone without extensive background in an OR could have such great control in the sterile field, and catch little tiny failures of others to maintain their field. I was this anal, because I was afraid. But I consistently caught people that were trained, very well trained, crossing in and out of their sterile fields. Thankfully, once I entered referral level medicine this experience stopped. Interestingly though, it stopped because their fields became larger. Or at least their workspace. They were know longer cramped, working in imperfect situations...the "establishment" had invested in infrastructure ensuring that the surgeons had a highly controllable OR. Ie, not home refining, not shed refining, but full on industrial labspace catering to ONE reaction type.

If you really want to know how much you touch, and how easy it is to contaminate your workspace, simply get some prussian blue. Put it on one tool, that you are only allowed to handle with gloves on. Watch your whole room turn blue, and your hands. It is so easy for one to cross contaminate, that you don't even have a clue that it's possible. I know my whole shop is contaminated. 

Couple even the slightest handling mishap causing a very very low dose, but consistent exposure with a body that has physiological problems expelling that low consistent dose that we all probably encounter to some degree, and you have a pathology.

I do absolutely wish Ken the best, and hope that he's able to figure this out.


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