# counterfeit bars



## mdghamon (Jul 18, 2012)

I got a report today that there are 100 Troy ounce silver bars on the market that have lead cores containing less than 40 ounces of silver. Has anyone else heard this or have experienc with them?


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## jimdoc (Jul 18, 2012)

mdghamon said:


> I got a report today that there are 100 Troy ounce silver bars on the market that have lead cores aontaining less than 40 ounces of silver. Has anyone else heard this or have experienc with them?



You are best to check any large bars, as you never know when any counterfeit or altered bars will show up. Ebay seems to be a source of a lot of these items.

Jim


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## 4metals (Jul 18, 2012)

I have seen these bars, they are Engelhard bars, at least the ones I saw. They were pulled out of a melt before they completely melted because the end melted off and the cores of lead poured out. 

It seems some enterprising machinist bought these bars, cut the end off to have a nice cap to cover their work,drilled two 1" diameter holes to just shy of breaking through the opposite end of the bar. These holes were filled with molten lead and the end which was cut off is reattached, likely with silver solder, and milled to look nice. 

A lot of these are out there. For this reason refiners only pay on melt and assay when bars come in. If you have no melt capability, you would likely not notice the switch. The craftsmanship was very good.


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## Westerngs (Jul 19, 2012)

Used to get those lead filled Engelhard bars back in the 90's and early 2000's. Have not seen any in years. Maybe they are all used up?

We had a guy could tell us which were lead filled by the sound they made when hit will a ball pein hammer, 100% accuracy. Personally, I could never tell.


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## mdghamon (Jul 19, 2012)

Thank you for the responses. Thought I was being paranoid at first. Turns out that testing still rules the day. Mike


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## EDI Refining (Jul 19, 2012)

Here's a some good information about the topic on hand

http://about.ag/LeadFilled100OunceBars.htm

I believe there is a youtube video floating around about tungsten filled gold bar found at Hearaus. They were detected prior to being melted because the employee noticed that the bar "it didnt look right"


As the price of precious metals continue to increase, so do the chance of counterfeit products entering the market place


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## goldenchild (Jul 19, 2012)

Fournines told me exactly what 4metals was talking about in a visit to the refinery I use. Apparently this guy made serious money doing this. When you take into account the value (even lower than today's price) of silver when this guy was counterfeiting, you have to figure there were crazy amounts of bars floating around with lead in them. I bet there are still bars out there with lead inside. People sometimes hang onto bullion for years.

Here is some interesting reading with some good pictures giving you an idea of what was being done.
http://about.ag/LeadFilled100OunceBars.htm


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## element47.5 (Jul 20, 2012)

Yeesh, I have two of those Englehard extruded bars. Just what I need to make me worry about something I have no control over. They ring quite noticeably upon being struck; I don't know if that means they are solid silver. 

I don't see a great way to non-destructively test them.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 20, 2012)

eBay :lol:


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## glondor (Jul 20, 2012)

element 47.5. I believe there is a magnet test that can be done on silver. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgSXg-WOEVY

This video is done on engelhart bars. Sorry does not work on loaded bars. Interesting tho. You can see this effect quite nicely by dropping a neodynium magnet through a copper tube. Takes a while to fall through.


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## qst42know (Jul 20, 2012)

I was at an estate auction several years ago. Tucked in the rafters of the basement shop was a large cigar box full of drill chips. A strange thing indeed to so carefully save except to me it looked like silver. I had intended to bid on it just to find out, except a family member had secretly pulled the box from the auction. I know what I believe it was, and the way the family member spirited it away is very suspicious, but I will never know for certain.


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## NoIdea (Jul 21, 2012)

glondor said:


> This video is done on engelhart bars. Sorry does not work on loaded bars. Interesting tho. You can see this effect quite nicely by dropping a neodynium magnet through a copper tube. Takes a while to fall through.



Yes, it is a very neat trick, the copper tube acts like a single shorted out wire coil, moving magnet induces an emf, this stops the magnet, magnet stopped, no emf so magnet moves, and the process continues till the magnet finaly drops out, great for the kids to learn from.

Deano


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## butcher (Jul 21, 2012)

Very interesting, I am well versed in electrical and magnetic theory, understanding magnetisms effect on coils of wire used in electrical and electronics, but never thought a solid object or tube of metal would produce the effect glondor and NoIdea, introduced me too, I guess I am going to have to open another book to study more on this subject, thanks guys your adding to the piles of paper in my living room, which seems to be growing out of contol already. :lol:


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## glondor (Jul 21, 2012)

I recall reading a while back that this effect will be used for braking systems on cars soon. The faster the relative motion, the more resistance to motion is created. Could be tested with an aluminum or copper plate, a neo magnet and a drill.


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## NoIdea (Jul 21, 2012)

The day they run cars off batteries, with each wheel being a drive motor, breaking would be like turning the wheel motors into four generators, pumping electricity back into the batteries. I have seen the prototype, all very interesting.

Deano


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## Rodthrower18 (Jul 25, 2012)

So then, is there a definite way to identify the fakes other than avoiding them? That video was still a good learning piece. In theory if the magnet is strong enough wouldn't the same thing STILL happen just not as drastically different? If 90% of the bar is still lead why wouldn't that change the effect in general? If what I "remember" from magnetics is true wouldn't the field from a strong neodymium magnet have an effect passed just the surface? Just curious as I've recently seen a few on my local craigslist site.


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## jimdoc (Jul 25, 2012)

Rodthrower18 said:


> So then, is there a definite way to identify the fakes other than avoiding them? That video was still a good learning piece. In theory if the magnet is strong enough wouldn't the same thing STILL happen just not as drastically different? If 90% of the bar is still lead why wouldn't that change the effect in general? If what I "remember" from magnetics is true wouldn't the field from a strong neodymium magnet have an effect passed just the surface? Just curious as I've recently seen a few on my local craigslist site.




I would only buy them after drilling a hole and checking them, if the buyer doesn't go for that, then maybe he knows what you will find. You can tell him to thank China for the total lack of trust in these bars. Although I am sure others are doing it as well.

Jim


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## publius (Jul 25, 2012)

This little guy would be helpful in determining if your bars had been plugged. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Ult...819?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ab2c82bb

The speed of ultrasound in silver (Ag) is about 2680 m/s. The Speed of sound in lead (Pb) 1158 m/s

The meter, if calibrated on a piece of .9999 silver would not read an accurate thickness on a plugged bar.it has to do with the change in velocity and the interface between the silver and the bar of lead.

So now ya need a UT machine along with your K2Cr2O7...


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## Auggie (Jul 25, 2012)

Here's an interesting test carried out by JH Mint (Jason Hommel):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl9xWtphiK8


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## lazersteve (Aug 5, 2012)

Maybe a simple metal detector will tell the difference by the tone the lead produces as opposed to the tone produced by a solid silver bar?

Steve


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## MJZPM (Aug 6, 2012)

My Friend just brought in his 3, 100oz. bars and one of the was one of these lead filled ones...


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## jimdoc (Aug 6, 2012)

MJZPM said:


> My Friend just brought in his 3, 100oz. bars and one of the was one of these lead filled ones...



Does he remember when and where he bought it? 
Was it an older bar, or a newer one?

Jim


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## element47.5 (Aug 6, 2012)

Apparently, the prime candidates are extruded Englehards, either one of two varieties, as pictured below. (I own two of these, first type) Which makes sense, the "drill and fill" would be hard to disguise on a J-M poured bar, which is the only type of J-M bar I've ever seen in 100 oz. Having mildly researched this, I originally thought the bad boys had very low serial numbers, eg; P00___ but from this site (where I snagged the pic) the serial numbers are all over the place.


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## element47.5 (Aug 6, 2012)

By the way, MJZPM, is there a "ring" difference between the good/bad bars? Different sound when you clench them in a corner with your fingers and rap on the bar with a knuckle? 

The non-destructive ways to test these would be costly for someone without the req'd gear, but I really cannot believe a genuine and a filled bar would ring the same.


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## jimdoc (Sep 18, 2012)

Fake gold bars turn up in Manhattan

http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19578206/fake-gold-bars-turn-up-in-manhattan


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## its-all-a-lie (Sep 19, 2012)

Didnt someone on the forum want to trade one of these bars for 10 one ounce coins a few days ago?


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## Palladium (Sep 19, 2012)

Is it just me or do all these stories hold similarities? Almost like a well orchestrated terror attack meant to plant fear in a market. Look real close and think........ Then again it could be the So2.


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## Lou (Sep 19, 2012)

Those are amazingly well crafted. Almost like someone CNC'd out the gold and put them back together. If they come in the original paperwork, with certs, hologram, serial #, it is tough not to be fooled. No one wants to drill the bar either because it ruins the merchantability and then it's only worth $5-6 over spot as 4N gold with no premium for the bar. 

It is thick enough to foil and XRF device or spark. It must be either drilled, or weighed on a balance that is accurate to the tenth of a milligram, or perhaps hit with ultrasound to measure the difference in refraction with the change of sound speed between materials (that could be rigged pretty cheap I bet).

I would like to get my hands ahold of one of them to be quite honest--I think an accurate SG instrument can distinguish them. 

I've worked with sintered W before and it's density doesn't actually match gold--it's closer to about 17.5-18.6 g/cc. It is too sophisticated and too expensive to make the cores from 100% theoretical density tungsten because that can't really be cast to near net shape like sintering can do and it must be done with a very expensive machine (e-beam or arc) and is low production volume. 

This means that the bar will not actually weigh 10.00 t oz but will be under if it's in the same shape. It might be close, but it will always be under.


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## Dan Dement (Sep 19, 2012)

After seeing Lou's post and reading about the 10 Oz Gold Bar this morning, I did an experiment to see if an accurate SG Scale will catch these bars. No, I do not have a counterfeit bar to test so I took 4 bigger Tungsten bands and weighted them at 52.30 grams and ran a SG test and the Tungsten Bands had an SG of 13.91 which if gold gold would be 63.3 with a Copper/Silver alloy and 66.6% using the Copper setting on my Alpha Mirage GKS-3000 with printer. Then, I took a one ounce Perth 99.99 bar and ran it and it showed a 98.4% purity with an 18.954 SG on the same machine. To be exact, it weighted 31.16 grams air & 29.52 Water with an SG of 18.954. Now, I really have not turned off the Air, recalabrtated the scale, and done all the tricks that might improve the accuracy, Quick Test to see if it works. so, I added the 31.1 gold and the 52.30 Tungsten bands together on the scale and got a 83.43Gram Air Weight and 78.01water weight for a gold purity of 77.9 with a 15.35 SG. compared to an almost 19. SG for pure gold. Alarm time!

On Silver, you are going to have the opposite problem with the SG running higher than silver weight. Silver pure SG is 10.53 and adding tungsten is going to make the SG higher. Until I actually have one, it is hard for me to say 100% for sure that it works but in theory, it does. A non-destructive way to double test.

Dan


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## jimdoc (Sep 19, 2012)

For silver they would probably use a metal closer in density than tungsten.
Like; 10 Sn & 90 Pb 10.50 to Silver, pure 10.4 - 10.6
http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra.html

Jim


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## samuel-a (Sep 19, 2012)

Lou said:


> or perhaps hit with ultrasound to measure the difference in refraction with the change of sound speed between materials (that could be rigged pretty cheap I bet).



Yes Lou, an ultrasonic thickness gauge would do the trick for less then 1K. All you need to know is the speed of sound of the metal you test and calibrate the machine accordingly.
As far as i know, it is less then likely to match the speed of sound of two different metals without screwing up on the density (and vise versa).


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## Dan Dement (Sep 19, 2012)

Sam,

Have you tested the sonic machine? If it works, I am sure going to buy one. I wonder if the sonic frequency remains the same for a one ounce bar to a 10 ounce bar. I got lots of toys but this is a new area of testing for me.

Thanks,

Dan


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## samuel-a (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi Dan

Can't say i had the privilege to paly with one or ever needed too.

Though it seems to be quite simple and be a great addition to the non destructive array of tests.

Here's few videos explaining the use of this device:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVjRSye8z-c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ATeNy3DIo&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8fdshyEek
and a bit more sophisticated one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh0Mcagio5Q&feature=related


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