# Ever heard of Concentrated Vinegar removal process



## goldfinger3 (Mar 8, 2016)

Found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9uj8qB0yyI this video online today while doing some youtube browsing and wondering if anyone ever heard of this method or are they basically making some form of HCI here? Also I am not one to rush out and try to do this nor am I looking for the magical solve all solution, this just popped up in my recommended videos today and thought I would ask.


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## butcher (Mar 8, 2016)

Not seeing the video I can only guess, from your question.
My guess is vinegar and salt NaCl, any hydrogen from an acid and the chloride from the salt, can form some HCl acid, with vinegar you would have a weak organic acid.
(not my cup of tea).
If you live in a cave and had to make HCl acid, then making it with salt NaCl and sulfuric would be a better option, distilling this outside your cave for safety sake, bubbling the gas into cold water, HCl acid is easy to get and cheap so why bother to make it?


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## Platdigger (Mar 8, 2016)

Having watched the vidio. If it is real, they are not just making weak hcl with some H2O2. Unless some type of buffering agent is involved. It would be interesting to know just what they are doing. 
But hey, that's their secret right?


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## solar_plasma (Mar 9, 2016)

IF it is real.... I will start to get excited, once they tell how this process is working and I can see some proofs. :|


....on the other side, nickel is sometimes quite corrosion resistant, should it just be that simple? If all other base metals are removed first before using this leach?


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## Shark (Mar 9, 2016)

I would try this first, but only if I had no other options.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=22967#p240985


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## goldfinger3 (Mar 9, 2016)

Shark said:


> I would try this first, but only if I had no other options.
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=22967#p240985



O yea I love sreetrips I have been watching all his videos along with everything I have been learning on here, I assume his Vinegar and Salt mix video is how I was linked to this one.


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## patnor1011 (Mar 9, 2016)

This one is also cool:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV77aZLDQJw[/youtube]


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## g_axelsson (Mar 10, 2016)

It was discussed three weeks ago.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=23458

Göran


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## bigpagoda (Apr 1, 2016)

I also saw this video and it is interesting to watch But I tried to contact these people to get some more information and no luck. I oddly have some 80% acetic acid and am considering trying it. If any one else has ever done this I would like to know what the story is?


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 2, 2016)

goldfinger3 said:


> Shark said:
> 
> 
> > I would try this first, but only if I had no other options.
> ...



That is kadriver, one of the awesome members of the forum...his videos are very, very good

So are the nerdrage videos

Most of the other stuff of youtube (most...not all...) shoild be avoided like the plague

Edit to finish my thought


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## Geo (Apr 2, 2016)

It looks as though they are using sodium nitrate prills in the solution. It could be concentrated acetic acid and solid sodium nitrate. The acetic acid being a substitute for HCl and the sodium nitrate being the oxidizer. Since the gold is so thin, it dissolves quickly to the nickel layer. The solution is weak enough that it doesn't attack the nickel layer quickly giving time to remove the gold and pull the piece before the base metal can be attacked. This is just speculating on my part and may be absolutely wrong.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 2, 2016)

butcher said:


> If you live in a cave and had to make HCl acid, then making it with salt NaCl and sulfuric would be a better option, distilling this outside your cave for safety sake, bubbling the gas into cold water, HCl acid is easy to get and cheap so why bother to make it?


Here's a link to that process, courtesy of Nurdrage.
http://science.wonderhowto.com/how-to/make-hydrochloric-acid-from-sodium-bisulfate-and-table-salt-402222/

The "live in a cave" made me smile. Conversely in my particular cave, Victoria, HCl is available at Bunnings but I can't find sulphuric. If I happened to be in a cave with walls loaded with sulphur ores, that would at least be helpful.

Drain cleaner is not an option; here it is about 50% NaOH, if you're lucky. Even if you walk into an auto parts shop and ask for battery acid, they give you a blank look. Which doesn't really work so well. Once I was excited when the guy said, "Yep, no problem. Two litres?" But he returned to the counter with DI water. :roll:

Copper sulphate is a bit pricey at $11 / 0.5kg but I'm giving that a shot, mostly just to see how feasible it is. Sodium Bisulphate is available too, and cheaper, so if anyone has a clue how to make H2SO4 from that, I'm all ears.


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## solar_plasma (Apr 2, 2016)

Electrowinning of copper sulphate or thermal decomposition of sulphates forming SO3. I have no real experience with any of those, yet.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 3, 2016)

For a hobby chemist, the idea of handling SO3 makes concentrated sulphuric acid sound like playing with Lego.


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## Marcel (Apr 4, 2016)

I see no real difference compared to the good ol AP method. period.
It is just some sort of detour.


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## ericrm (Apr 4, 2016)

which one is real?
i read when your mix acetic acid and salt you make sodium acetate and hcl and i read the opposite that adding hcl to sodium acetate make acetic acid and salt. it cant do both doesnt it?


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## patnor1011 (Apr 4, 2016)

Marcel said:


> I see no real difference compared to the good ol AP method. period.
> It is just some sort of detour.



Nice to see you back Marcel 8)


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## g_axelsson (Apr 4, 2016)

ericrm said:


> which one is real?
> i read when your mix acetic acid and salt you make sodium acetate and hcl and i read the opposite that adding hcl to sodium acetate make acetic acid and salt. it cant do both doesnt it?


It does both, the ions sodium, chloride, acetate and hydrogen is mixed in water and there is no way to tell which ion belongs to which.

Just like forming nitric acid when we add hydrochloric acid to a solution with nitrate salts.

Göran


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## ericrm (Apr 4, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> ericrm said:
> 
> 
> > which one is real?
> ...



thank you, im not chemist it is obvious. and i have a hard time getting used to the fact than mixing two salt together in a solvent only make something new when you remove them from the solvent


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## solar_plasma (Apr 5, 2016)

ericrm said:


> g_axelsson said:
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> > ericrm said:
> ...



Göran is right of course, but further weak acids and bases are in an equilibrium state, not all of the acetic acid for example is in a protolyzed state, but it is in an equilibrium: 
CH3COOH + H2O <=> CH3COO- + H3O+
Also strong acids and bases are in an equilibrium, but it is in the case of (at least dilluted) HCl completely on the right side:
HCl + H2O => Cl- + H3O+

Now, a new chemical reaction can disturb this equilibrium by removing some of the ions, for example:
Cl- + H3O+ + AgNO3 <=> HNO3 (actually as a strong acid also completely protolyzed) + AgCl(solid)
At this arrow to both sides you see it is also an equilibrium, but due to AgCl's very low solubility this reaction is almost completely to the right (quatitative precipitation). That is is still an equilibrium you can prove by reducing the AgCl by adding a reactive basemetal (typically Fe, Zn or Cu) in an acidic environment (typically H2SO4 or HCl - for instructions new members should search for [convert][silver][chloride] since not all combinations would work as well as others). If AgCl were not soluble at all, it would not react at all at those temperatures. But as we all know, it does - thanks to equilibrium reactions.

Hope this helps to get a feeling for, what happens.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 5, 2016)

solar_plasma said:


> ericrm said:
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> 
> > g_axelsson said:
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Björn i right of course, and he shows a deeper understanding of the physical chemistry going on. Chemistry isn't only simple reaction formulas and to get to the next level you need to understand chemical equilibrium. Any reaction can go both ways, temperature and chemical concentrations decides where the equilibrium resides and toward which side of an equation the reaction goes.

There is a slight error in this statement


> Also strong acids and bases are in an equilibrium, but it is in the case of (at least diluted) HCl completely on the right side:
> HCl + H2O => Cl- + H3O+


since even this reaction is in balance. A proof of this is the fact that hydrochloric acid have a smell, it is HCl going off as a gas. When the HCl is removed from the left side of the equation, more Cl- + H3O+ will combine into HCl to keep the reaction in equilibrium.
Another equilibrium is the pressure of HCl above the surface of the liquid. Until the partial pressure of HCl is high enough in the atmosphere above the surface there will be more HCl leaving the surface than dissolving into the liquid, but when the partial pressures is high enough there will be a molecule going back into solution from the gas for each molecule HCl that is leaving the liquid.... and we will have equilibrium.
The same process is affecting the water molecules.

In an open container we would see this as evaporation, while in a closed jug of acid we would get a slightly higher pressure than the surrounding atmosphere. A more common example is an opened bottle of cola, every time you opens the bottle you release the over pressure and the partial pressure of the carbon dioxide above the liquid goes down, releasing more from the liquid. If you put the cork back the pressure goes up again until the pressures are in equilibrium with the gases dissolved in the liquid.

I found a good link on hydrochloric acid when doing some research for this posting that I would like to share. It contains partial pressures of HCl and H2O at different temperatures but also a lot other stuff about HCl.
http://www.jsia.gr.jp/data/handling_02e.pdf

This is fun stuff! 8) 

Göran


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## solar_plasma (Apr 6, 2016)

I tend to underestimate the physical properties of the environment (I always felt physical chemistry being too boring and to complicated :lol: ), of course what I said is a) only true under defined physical properties and b) always a simplificated model.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 6, 2016)

Hey, don't stop now. We haven't even reached the field of quantum chemistry. :mrgreen: 

Göran


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