# Deal or bust



## justinhcase (Mar 3, 2014)

I got home from work to night and had a note from one of the university metallurgy students.
He wanted some silver but did not have the cash.
He did have a Gallenhamp 14 amp Box Furnace..cat no FSL32010R.
Now me being me instead of telling him to hop it I gave him 50g of silver.
I don't have any real use for it as I hate to wast electric and love to use my home made charcoal and gas contrivance.
But As I historically am a very poor judge when it come's to any of my compulsions I though I would ask a level headed bunch of chaps if I made a deal or have yet again dun a bust.
Any way's to capabilities on my new toy will probably be tried to varying extents and degrees.
O and I just put a picture of some crystal cuzz they is pretty..


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## niteliteone (Mar 4, 2014)

If that furnace works properly, You did good on the deal  
If you were 5,000 miles closer to me I would gladly give you double what it cost you, working or not.


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## kurtak (Mar 4, 2014)

Nice score on the furnace (good for doing fire assay) BUT -----

looking at the pics I have to ask --- your not really doing this in your basement are you :?: :?: :?: do other people live there with you :?: :?: :?: do they know that you are slowly poisoning them :?: :?: :?: are the PMs going to be worth the health effect on you in the not to distant future :?: :?: :?: 

Don't you know that the toxins & corrosives slowly but surely build up & accumulate everywhere & on everything (including in your house heat/air ventilation system) thereby slowly but surely increasing the risk to your health & damage to your property --- unless your work area is under constant negative air pressure ventilation (the reason for a good fume hood that runs continually to create constant negative air pressure in a dedicated room)

Maybe I am wrong because I don't see everything in the pictures (so sorry if I am wrong) --- I am not even saying that you can't do this in your basement (though I wouldn't) but if you are - then you need to build a dedicated room for it & build so it is under constant negative air pressure

Maybe its not even any of my business - but the washing machine in the back ground gave it away - unless that is part of your refining set up --- other wise I m just trying to give you good advice --- build a dedicated room - put it under constant negative air pressure - its not that hard to do & doesn't cost that much

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Mar 4, 2014)

You can not see from the pic's but it is part of a property development I am doing.
It stalled last year because of a cowboy builder and I won't be able to finish it until it stop's raining.
The hole rear wall is missing and that portion of the project and the floor above are riped out ready for re plastering once I get a roof on the extension and a new wall at the back of the house.
I am using the old cooking hearth to do most of my hot work which has a very good draft especially when I light a fire to the left of the furnace.or a tiny 50g unit I use for fine gold.
My lab table is in the extension with out a roof and the wind through the property has been at 1-2 knot's
My kit is just like my rave rig flight cased and ready to move.both have a history of taking advantage of any free space that will sufice.
I am hoping to buy a small bit of land and erect a small steel frame building when this property is finished for my work shop's
I will have to pack up and go back to digging in a week or two but for now it is the only construcive use for the space I could find and I have to much tied up in the project not to see at least a little return from the space.
I do have two rooms i use on the third floor and i dont think any thing nasty is surviving to any real concentration at that hight.
As a rime one of my instructors told me go's"the solution to pollution is dilution"
Thanks for showing concern I have only rinsed 5 or so oz of Au and only have 200g of 9 ct in hand to run through at the moment so the volume is not to great.


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## justinhcase (Mar 4, 2014)

and to answer an earlier question .No it turns out the element did not survive the trip.
So the nice student brought back 40g of silver and offered to help get any supply's I need from store's to rewind some new elements.
Apparently it helps his grant to go further dealing with a half head like me.
good stuff


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## niteliteone (Mar 5, 2014)

If you are handy at doing it yourself, I found an ebay seller that carries a variety of wire sizes of Nichrome wire for heating elements.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nichrome-wire-16-Gauge-60-series-8oz-69ft-Resistance-Resistor-AWG-/370794451143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56551250c7


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## justinhcase (Mar 5, 2014)

We had a go at inspecting the elements to see what the state of play was but only got as far as working out it's mechanical and electrical construction.
I am working through guarding the local court's until tuesday so will unhook the electric elements and thermocouple's after that to see what they have used.
Hopefully the university will have some in stock which I can triad for if not that supplier is is of great help thank you.
I wont want to heat the new wire up until it has a permanent home but it should help in the future so I can take my time.
The only problem is that if I don't curb my pack rat DNA I will have to get a second shipping container to keep my surplus kit in.


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## kurtak (Mar 5, 2014)

justinhcase said:


> As a rime one of my instructors told me go's"the solution to pollution is dilution"
> 
> Thanks for showing concern I have only rinsed 5 or so oz of Au and only have 200g of 9 ct in hand to run through at the moment so the volume is not to great.



The "the solution to pollution is dilution" is only true to a point

Example - smoking cigarettes in a house (& refining works very much the same way) --- lets start with a brand new house with that nice brand new house smell - smoke one cigarette in it - for the next few hours you can detect that a cigarette has been smoked in it - as time passes (a day or two) it becomes so dilute it can no longer be detected - BUT - the tar & nicotine has still settled on surfaces that the smoke touched - its just to dilute to detect --- & over time - if you never smoke in the house again it will continue to dilute to the point of being gone

Now smoke one cigarette in that same house every day for a week - each day the tar & nicotine accumulates on surfaces with the tar & nicotine from the one cigarette smoked each previous day - at the end of a week stop smoking - it now wont be just a day before the tar & nicotine (which has accumulated on surfaces) dilutes to the point of being undetectable - it will take a couple of months - AND - even then its not gone - its just more dilute 

Now - smoke a pack a day for one year in that house - so much tar & nicotine is going to accumulate & build up that the entire house has become contaminated (even if you only smoked in one room - like the basement) the tar & nicotine has now got into your heating & air system - building up there & is now moving the contamination through out the house - & though it becomes dilute as it moves from the place/source it is being created to the rest of the house - it does not change the fact that each time you smoke a cigarette you are slowly but surely accumulating & building up the toxins of tar & nicotine on EVERY surface in your home - to the point that over time you have contaminated you whole house

So its not that each cigarette in & of its self contaminates the house - its the accumulation over time from each cigarette that builds up to a contaminated house

Fumes from running a furnace &/or fumes from small or low level reactions &/or just opening or having open containers of chems do exactly the same thing - they settle on surfaces where they accumulate & build up & soon what started as dilute becomes less & less & less dilute - equals more & more & more polluted 

So saying --- "and only have 200g of 9 ct in hand to run through at the moment so the volume is not to great" --- that's not the problem - the problem is this being added to what has been done before & any future processing added to that

You can not avoid the slow but sure build up of toxins from doing this - unless you set up your work area as its own environment under negative air pressure

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Mar 5, 2014)

So would you class a room without a roof or four walls as in door's or out??it only has two walls and a floor one is the large hole in the back of my house the other will have a 4m bi-fold door by the end of summer long after this project has moved on to other digs.
there is absolutely no fixings heating or plaster and the floors are all concrete and covered in a good layer of sand and such which will have to be swept away before they are sealed and have a slate floor put over the top.
I put the furnace where it is because every thing go's up the chimney and I thought that would be the best place to keep any hot fumes.Defiantly could not use a charcoal gas hybrid with out keeping all the sparks tightly contained so would have to be in the middle of a field to use out side.
The chemical fumes are what I would call out side and any that are up stairs would have to have blown back in from outside through a brick wall as I keep all the windows at the back of the house closed in winter as convection brought them up the out side of the building.even then if you have not been in U.K. for winter you could not under stand the constant wind.I wish I could keep an atmosphere contained in the house any heat is instantly blown out side thus it is with all building sites I have ever been on.
I always have run my silver cell's some where in my work shop or studio as I don't think that gives off any fumes.but have always left my silver acid bath outside to react over night and brought the solution inside only to filter.
Just invested in a vacuum distillation kit so i can try to save some of the nitric and hopefully cut down on pollution.but on the hole I would not consider my effort's of the past month any thing other than very low level experiment's to find my feet with AU.
Was I wrong.
I am going to get my friendly neighborhood chemist back to look again at what I am doing.He did not run out of the house screaming last time he thought it was quite enterprising and helped refresh my understanding of molars(been 25 years since Mr Bridgman's class and I had forgotten the details )
Much thanks for all your posts .
Tried to do some pictures of the extension to show you how open it is but way to dark by the time I got home. any way I don't think I can do more damage than the D.H.S.S. I had it rented to for the past fifteen years. We are on our 120ith tun of crap removed and have an other 20-30 to do if it ever dries out.then I can put an inside back and make it pretty.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 5, 2014)

About that furnace you bought. It's made by Weiss Gallenkamp in the U.K.. It looks like they make good stuff. The 3 things I look for in one of these small electric furnaces is (1) What is the maximum temperature? It must be at least 2050F or 2100F. (2) How thick is the refractory? If it's not at least 2", I don't want it. If less, it takes too long to recover after you've opened the door. (3) I want a good electronic controller, which costs extra. On the cheap ones, there's just a analog temp setting. Two of those that I owned somehow overheated and melted down the entire furnace, mainly because I didn't keep a good eye on them. You have to watch them like a hawk. With a good controller, you set it and forget it. It's hard to really see what type controller you have.

It looks like the refractory is thick. That's very good. Does it heat?


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## justinhcase (Mar 6, 2014)

Yes the refractory of the door is 5cm which is about 2" and comes down smoothly to lock into place.
I have not seen the internal refractory thickness as it is all housed in an internal steel box that must be unwired to slide out of the external housing so lot's of fun and games there.And is rated up to 1200c and then it has a red bit of the dial So I think it would go above if you where silly enough to try to push it.
I was told that the reason for the university handing it down to me was that they had found the temperature fluctuated some times.
So rather than fixing they just bought a new unit and the element did not survive the trip intact which was to be expected.I would have been very surprised if it did as I have seen how brittle they get once used even once..
I was going to see if any of the electronic technicians of my acquaintance could look at the thermostatic regulator to see why it had been playing up.I can see it relies on an old fashioned variable resistor for it's control setting which is always the first to clog up.
So if it is not an easy fix I best invest in a digital regulator/controller.
Any suggestions??
Much thanks for all your pointers, Please keep it up as they are invaluable.


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## kurtak (Mar 6, 2014)

justinhcase

Personally it makes no difference to me what &/or how other people do things in their own lives as long as it has no direct impact on my life - however - when I see something that may put them & or others at risk I feel a need to at least bring it to their attention - especially if it "appears" that they are unaware of the risk --- from there what they do with the information is their business (example - I can't make someone ware eye protection when running an angle grinder - I can only tell them they should) 

Your profile tells me you are a new member (Feb - 12 - 2014) (maybe you have been here longer & that's a new user name) so if you are a new member I simply want to point out that safety is a real issue of concern here on this forum

I was recently called to task when I posted pics of my fume hood set up because it doesn't run through a scrubber - so I had to post more pics & explain that the fume hood is set up in a room (lab) built out in the old barn on my property & is used for secondary (low level) fume control & that actual reaction are run through a scrubber

View thread - http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=19965

When I looked at the pics you posted in this thread it "appears" that you are working in the basement of your house (washing machine I back ground) & without any kind of fume control

Maybe your pics don't tell the whole story - but they leave the impression that its ok to do this in your home & without fume control at that

So although I am "questioning" what you are doing (based on what I see in your pics) I am also posting (based on the appearance &/or impression that your pics leave) for the benefit & to inform others (especially new members) that doing this in your home is not ok

Fumes are fumes - whether full blow reaction is taking place - or low level fume work (open containers, prepping, or after reaction work)

A house is a positive pressure environment - meaning anything put into the air in that environment has the ability to go anywhere &/or everywhere within that environment settling whereever & when ever it comes in contact with a surface within that environment - fumes in a home are just like cigarette smoke &/or the dust in your home - they float free in the air (no direction) until they contact a surface & settle on it --- a drafty house does not change that

In a positive pressure environment - when you open a bottle of acid - filter a solution - run a silver cell - the fumes float free on the air until they contact a surface & settle there - they have no direction - & like dust they build up & accumulate on surfaces - unlike dust - fumes are toxic &/or corrosive

That's why when doing this it should be done in a negative pressure environment - negative pressure being a vacuum &/or intentional controlled direction of air flow - which is a vacuum of sorts 

That's way in my lab the fume hood runs 24/7 (continually) it creates a negative pressure not just at the hood but in the room as well

Kurt


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## kurtak (Mar 6, 2014)

By the way I like your little gas furnace set up including the burner design - very simple for the hobby refiner

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Mar 6, 2014)

No I am a new member but have had a small side line in silver for a number of years.
Just decided it was time for me to start to play with the good stuff.
I found that living on a building site has one advantage .lot's of left over expanded insulation blocks.
I have run through three smelts(I will post a picture of the Victorian chimney stack I use to take the smoke and sparks up above the houses.It use to burn all the coal that had to much sulfur in it for industry which was very nasty I have been told that in thous days even the rain was acid and people's hair color would change in the rain.LOL ).
One block only lasts for two or three hours but lucky I have a good number that where damaged (lucky I have them not lucky they where damaged) in the hardcore pile.
I found that neither gas or charcoal where quite right for my uses.charcoal is low on heat and gas can be hard to keep at the optimal rate so needed relighting when I miss regulated.obviously I used a forced air input with both.
So I started to use the gas to light the charcoal,then turn it off and just pump air for ten minuets.
Slowly building up the charcoal(if you fill the furnace before it is lit it is hard to get going)
once the thing is loosely packed I leave it with just the charcoal and air and go make a cuppa.
When it is nice and red and I have finished my tea I just give it a little gas into the air pipe and it comes up to melt point within ten minuets.It sounds like an old pulses jet when you give it some gas ,I am not sure if that is because of the type of air compressor I am using or a result of a fluctuation in the air fuel ratio or a fluctuation in the fule air ration caused by the piston air pump but it sound's awsum.I saw that people had come up with all sorts of devices to stop a flame from entering the air/gas delivery pipe.I just used some of the Stainless Steel pot scrubbers pulled it out and packed it into the end of the pipe for 10 or 11cm,then tried to force a flame down the pipe with my blow torch(just gas I am afraid,have no hook torch yet boo hoo)No flame could be seen returning through the test unit so thought it was good to go.
It was suffice for a first attempt and now I have a proven concept and know I can actually take in scrap and put out some thing that resembles fine gold I can now justify spending some cash on a dedicated aria when I build my new work shop's(apart from the music studio, electronic bench, forge and so forth)
I will be buying a large bag of castable refractory cement to build a proper furnace that fit's the nice hand made fire clay and graphite crucibles a friend made for me.it is just nice to work with a hand thrown crucible.he followed an 1800 instruction much like I do when I can.I have heard that some one around here has worked out how to make there own induction furnace.
Which is so beyond impressive cant wait to see how the crafty little Marmaduke(sorry for using word Marmaduke but it was the only none crass word I could think of.) has pulled that one off.
Take care
Just
P.S Criticism was invited by the use of large amounts of self deprecating humor.please keep it up.


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