# HCN detection and safety



## anachronism (Aug 4, 2017)

A tip for the guys who use CN based leaching. This is a reasonably priced HCN detection unit. 

https://www.canarysense.com/product/bw-gaxt-z-dl-gasalertextreme

Jon


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 4, 2017)

anachronism said:


> A tip for the guys who use CN based leaching. This is a reasonably priced HCN detection unit.
> 
> https://www.canarysense.com/product/bw-gaxt-z-dl-gasalertextreme
> 
> Jon



Thanks for sharing Jon.
I've been looking into cyanide use quite extensively, for quite some time now.

A question, if I may.
-what do you have for an antidote kit?

The cyanokit is new, and they are very proud of it (but for good reason)... Butyl and Amyl nitrite are used recreationally over here by a bunch,of idiots, so doctors are very hesitant to Rx it. (Which brings me to the last question)
Is there another option? Or does it come down to forking over $1,300 or having to explain in lengthy detail to a doctor how you arent a raver, and not a sociopath?


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## anachronism (Aug 4, 2017)

I don't have an antidote kit. Frankly yes I should have to dot the i's and cross the T's however the levels involved shouldn't ever allow the danger to get that high. If you know it's there you're not gonna breathe it. It doesn't foam out of a solution, it's a slow process that comes about from making other errors along the way. Get your processes right, your ventilation right and your protocols right and that's way more important.


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## 4metals (Aug 4, 2017)

True but the antidote kit isn't for a release from your process it's from an employee who puts his peanut butter and jelly sandwich down on a table where he just weighed out 40 or 50 grams of KCN powder and left a mess. 

There isn't much time for administering the antidote. It starts with inhaling an amyl nitrate followed by 2 intravenous solutions. Unless someone tells you I just ate a spoon-full of cyanide and you act immediately, chances are it will be too late. But still the licensing agencies love to see the kit in your first aid cabinet along with its mention in your safety manual. 

Personally I have always had the kits when I used cyanide, but never used one. For which I am grateful. Once I was running a large electroplating facility and a plater came into my office and asked me to give him the "treatment" He got some plating solution on him and it also splashed into his mouth and he was worried. I jumped up and went to the cabinet and as I was getting out the kit I asked him how long ago it happened. When he told me before lunch, I looked at him and said that was at least 30 minutes ago. Then I said "Do you know how much these kits cost?" I told him if he ingested enough cyanide to kill him he would be dead already. He wasn't happy that I wouldn't administer the antidote and he reported me to the union.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 4, 2017)

4metals said:


> ...I said "Do you know how much these kits cost?" I told him if he ingested enough cyanide to kill him he would be dead already. He wasn't happy that I wouldn't administer the antidote and he reported me to the union.



Have you heard/read any of the "cyanokit" antidote?
It is hydroxocobalamin (5g via injection)

...a lot I have read was belittling the amyl kit, because "only certified medical personel" can do intravenous injection. (Although, if I was dying of CN poisoning, I wouldnt care WHO gave me the shots. I figure, unless their aim is so terrible it kills me, it couldn't be worse than the alternative..)
----

I have to ask though, what did the union say to him? "Are you an idiot? *YOU'RE ALIVE*, arent you!?. :shock: ..you obviously didnt need it"


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## Shark (Aug 5, 2017)

You used to could go to the hospital and be trained to do intravenous injections. I am not sure if that is something easy to do under normal circumstances, but I did it for a friend of mine. He had Hemophilia and took injections daily, sometimes several times a day. He had injected himself as much as he could, but if he got seriously hurt, he needed someone that could do it for him. He arranged it some way, and I spent two days training at our local hospital.


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## 4metals (Aug 5, 2017)

Topher,

The cyanokit is a new technology and I'm an old refiner! The older kits were not easy to administer but because I was around cyanide so much I was certified, and renewed every 3 years, to give intravenous injections. 

The union was between a rock and a hard place on this one. They had to come off using the "you showed no concern for the welfare of your workers" approach but the fact that he was alive and didn't even miss a day's work even though he was 'poisoned" didn't give them much to stand on. It blew over quickly.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 5, 2017)

4metals said:


> Topher,
> 
> The cyanokit is a new technology and I'm an old refiner! The older kits were not easy to administer but because I was around cyanide so much I was certified, and renewed every 3 years, to give intravenous injections.
> So how do the older kits compare in price to the new stuff, which is about $1,300 for a 12pack?
> ...



Well, surely they must have realised that it was all on him. Had he not been negligent and went to you immediately, then it could have been a different ending to that story. 

How long ago was this? 80s, 90s? (Not that it matters too much), I more wonder of the initial training required to work at plating shops, and if this was before OSHA was everywhere (even the local grocery store has OSHA paperwork hanging up on every wall in their customer service area) ...

Surely now, there must be training in place so all the peons know that the electrolyte isnt too healthy to get in your mouth. (Since he reported after lunch, I can only imagine one of the more 'in the know' workers said "you got *what* in your mouth?!? -go, now!"
And thats why he had his leisurely wait before seeing you) :lol: 

Glad it all worked out in the end for you though, afterall, america is the land of lawsuits


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## 4metals (Aug 5, 2017)

Well it was in the early '70's and believe it or not OSHA existed way back then! The antidote kits I am familiar with were a one shot kit. Kind of amazing for them to come in 12 packs, I guess that's in case another Jim Jones Koolaid incident pops up!

I remember the gold price was about $150 back then (1974) and the kit was close to the cost of 2 ounces of gold. I remember that because my boss pointed out the cost and compared it to gold when I requested one in the first aid cabinet. 

I don't know how much good having one in a one man shop would do anyway. I would love to see the effectiveness in actual practice these kits are.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 5, 2017)

4metals said:


> I don't know how much good having one in a one man shop would do anyway. I would love to see the effectiveness in actual practice these kits are.



True, being a one man band, it is kind of pointless... 
Just better be careful! As well as being prepared as best you can to prevent it.(fume hood, HCN meter, etc..)

I read through most of the literature on their site (cyanokit), and it seems to be advertised mainly for administration to house fire victims that have acute cyanide poisoning from the everyday items that contain CN and release it (or HCN) on combustion.

So, I too question it's effectiveness for the poor fool and his peanut butter sandwich.

(edit to add a couple words)


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## snoman701 (Aug 6, 2017)

I disagree...hitting a vein is not hard. 

Former vet tech...if I can hit a jugular on a dehydrated cat, you can hit a vein in your arm when you suspect your dying. 

The process of removing the needle, without getting a giant bruise, is a lot more difficult without a third hand...but a bruise in the face of death from cyanide poisoning isn't all that bad.


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## jason_recliner (Aug 6, 2017)

snoman701 said:


> I disagree...hitting a vein is not hard.
> 
> Former vet tech...if I can hit a jugular on a dehydrated cat, you can hit a vein in your arm when you suspect your dying.


But can you do it on a cold night in Stoke? (It's possible that only UK residents will understand that.)

The point is that it's all fine when you're fine. Most of us have seen "Casino Royale", but in a one-man operation, when one is subject to the effects one is unlikely to pull off the saltwater + adrenaline + defibrillator combination without a little assistance.


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## anachronism (Aug 6, 2017)

jason_recliner said:


> Former vet tech...if I can hit a jugular on a dehydrated cat, you can hit a vein in your arm when you suspect your dying.


But can you do it on a cold night in Stoke? (It's possible that only UK residents will understand that.)[/quote]

Haha


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## snoman701 (Aug 6, 2017)

jason_recliner said:


> snoman701 said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree...hitting a vein is not hard.
> ...




Yeah, sorry...don't get the reference.

I guess it's like this. If I worked alone with cyanide, I'd rather have the chance, than not.


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## 4metals (Aug 6, 2017)

I have worked alone with cyanide, and I have the training to do the injections, but I would not rely on being calm enough to set up to do the self injection process all the time knowing there is a real possibility that the unintentional screw up I just committed may kill me. 

I prefer the proactive approach. Work in an area without any possibility of exposure to acids, keep the workplace clean and all of your drums and buckets labeled, and keep a clear path out of the work area in the event you have to leave quickly. The detector that was linked in the beginning of this thread would be a better way to spend your cyanide safety money. Knowing that if the alarm goes off, you turn around and quickly use that clear path!


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## snoman701 (Aug 6, 2017)

4metals said:


> I have worked alone with cyanide, and I have the training to do the injections, but I would not rely on being calm enough to set up to do the self injection process all the time knowing there is a real possibility that the unintentional screw up I just committed may kill me.
> 
> I prefer the proactive approach. Work in an area without any possibility of exposure to acids, keep the workplace clean and all of your drums and buckets labeled, and keep a clear path out of the work area in the event you have to leave quickly. The detector that was linked in the beginning of this thread would be a better way to spend your cyanide safety money. Knowing that if the alarm goes off, you turn around and quickly use that clear path!



Completely agree!


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## snoman701 (Oct 3, 2017)

anachronism said:


> A tip for the guys who use CN based leaching. This is a reasonably priced HCN detection unit.
> 
> https://www.canarysense.com/product/bw-gaxt-z-dl-gasalertextreme
> 
> Jon



So it seems that there are two options...this one, the honeywell sensor or BW series, or the MSA series detector. This one comes in cheaper.

I haven't done the research yet...curious if anyone has. This unit requires calibration every 90 days, looks like it takes about 3 minutes of gas at 0.5 LPM. Does the MSA series detector cost less when you start to compare quarterly calibration costs? Does anyone have any experience with either detector?


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## Lino1406 (Oct 4, 2017)

Instead of breathing cyanide, give the scrubber do it. Antidote = sodium thiosulphate solution
also hypochlorite can work


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## snoman701 (Oct 4, 2017)

Lino1406 said:


> Instead of breathing cyanide, give the scrubber do it. Antidote = sodium thiosulphate solution
> also hypochlorite can work



HCN Meters aren't made so that you can breath cyanide, they are made so that they detect subclinical levels so that you can adjust your breathing air appropriately...whether that be through fresh air breather, ventilation, scrubbing, etc. 

I work alone, I'd rather find out at 5 PPM HCN that I've got an issue with my ventilation than when my face starts to feel flush.


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## anachronism (Oct 6, 2017)

To be very honest using cyanide is all about common sense. Work in a vented area, make sure your pH levels are correct, don't eat, drink , or smoke, and use the proper protocols for handling the liquids. Have a spill procedure in place too. 

It's not the demon that people have suggested that it is provided you have common sense and a good set of safety procedures. That given, if you're already unsafe using other chemicals because of your slipshod methods then don't go near this stuff. The key difference is simple: Get it badly wrong with this and you don't get a second chance. Get it right and don't get over confident and it's a dream to work with. 

Read up on the definitions of ppm, and free cyanide and how free cyanide is made up both CN- ions in solution and HCN in solution and how the percentages vary with pH. The short version is that at pH 11+ your free cyanide is 90 plus percent in the ionic form rather than the dissolved HCN gas. Hence why the "manuals" recommend this as a minimum pH. 

In summary* if you're a newbie or you consistently fail to grasp lab safety protocols then steer away from this like the plague*. If you don't even understand the chemistry behind it then wait until you do before trying it. 

Jon


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## snoman701 (Oct 6, 2017)

anachronism said:


> To be very honest using cyanide is all about common sense. Work in a vented area, make sure your pH levels are correct, don't eat, drink , or smoke, and use the proper protocols for handling the liquids. Have a spill procedure in place too.
> 
> It's not the demon that people have suggested that it is provided you have common sense and a good set of safety procedures. That given, if you're already unsafe using other chemicals because of your slipshod methods then don't go near this stuff. The key difference is simple: Get it badly wrong with this and you don't get a second chance. Get it right and don't get over confident and it's a dream to work with.
> 
> ...



Thanks Jon...most of my readings have determined exactly what you just said. There's still something comforting about the meter though. Maybe I should just get a canary. Right now, I'm looking at having a small shed/building that is dedicated strictly to cyanide. That way the hood can be set up for the free cyanide titrations, and kept set up. I can also set up a small electrowinning cell in the hood, and just leave it set up.

Do you have your system up and running yet?


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## anachronism (Oct 6, 2017)

I've got multiple variations in development at the moment but since it's now going commercial there's an awful lot of process documentation, paperwork, and environmental permitting happening as we speak.


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## flyfisherman (Oct 8, 2017)

I guess the difficulty of hitting the vein depends on a few factors- if person has thick "rope" veins when it is not very hard thing to do, even if person has to do it him/herself, but if the veins are thin and hard to see when it is alot more difficult. Some amount of experience and practice is nessesary to perform iv shot properly. I use to work in the hospital and done my share of iv starting, shots , ect. Some people have tons of huge veins in their arms which i could hit even with a big gage needle and my eyes closed. When there are others (especially females and the elderly) who have such a tiny hair thin blood vessels that you need all of your skills , a very small gage needle and sometimes many tries to do the job. Another important thing is to make sure that syringe needle is really in the vein before injecting the medication. Which is why it is very good idea to pull the plunger back after sticking needle in the vein, if it is in the vein the dark venous blood will rush in the syringe, if vein is missed there will be no blood. It is also very , very important to have the fair knowledge of veins location on the limbs (usually the arm is preferable site for the hypodermic injections, but leg veins can be injected too if nessesary) to do the injection safely. Only in the movies person would stick huge needle in the someones arm at the 90 degrees angle and avoid causing injures. In real life, you have to first work your fist to swell the veins, when do a palpation with a finger to locate the spot and only after proceed with an injection. I heard the few horror stories of unexperienced personal accidently hitting the nerves with the needle causing very bad trauma. In real bad cases poor patients been loosing almost all use of their limb :shock:


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