# Valid Refineit nitric cell alternative?



## 924T (Jul 17, 2013)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-Refini...488?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e7d0f15c0

This looks pretty innovative to me, and might be a viable alternative to a Refineit system, with the plus that
nowhere is 'alloying down' mentioned as part of the process.

When I first saw these, one was up for open bidding, and was around $60 at that time. A few days ago,
I saw one for $499 opening bid. The ebay link above shows a buy-it-now for $999.

Any comments or observations on this?

Cheers,

Mike


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## nickvc (Jul 18, 2013)

Save your money and look up refining gold filled here on the forum. You can do the same with a bottle each of nitric and hydrochloric acids, a litre beaker, a couple of coffee filters and the precipitant of your choice, read the safety section if you do this and follow the advice given.


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## 924T (Jul 18, 2013)

Nickvc, you're absolutely correct, but my wife is adamant about no AR in the garage, so I've been looking
at alternatives, such as nitric cells.

This nitric cell, as it turns out, is manufactured by a GRF member who owns a company named Rhino Mining,
and it looks to me like he's built a better, more cost effective Refineit.

Has anybody in the forum bought or used one of these yet?

Cheers,

Mike


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2013)

Which member ?


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## nickvc (Jul 18, 2013)

If you can't use AR why not use Chlorox, to be fair unless you have either good extraction or can work outdoors don't even think about refining, all the processes we use will cause problems to any metallics in the area you use, a garage isn't to be advised especially if you keep your car there or any tools in there.


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## 924T (Jul 18, 2013)

nickvc----------again, you're absolutely correct-------and the shed I've got is way too small, so I'm looking
into a new, bigger, walk-in shed--------at that point, I'll be able to begin using wet chemistry. So, to start
with in the garage, I'm going to grind and then sort things out on a wave table.

Palladium---------the only 3 things I know about this GRF member are that his first name is Bill, the company name
is Rhino Mining, and he's in Pittsburg, PA.

Cheers,

Mike


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2013)

Anybody know who Bill is?


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## niteliteone (Jul 19, 2013)

Even more curious about Bill is his selling history being only to "Private" buyers and the majority have feedbacks under 200 that are also "Private Listing" buyers so their is no way to even see what was sold or the price paid. At least from what I was able to locate.

Kind of screams Scam Alert if you ask me.


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2013)

You don't know the half of it. I'm on a hunt and will fill you guys in on it later. Not only is Bill involved, but i have reason to believe it goes deeper than that with some senior forum members involved also. Can't prove it yet but i'm on the trail. And just to make it clear this is not about the system it's self, but about the lies and deceit that is being perpetuated here on the forum. I know who you are !!!!!!


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2013)

Here's where you bought the Titanium from http://www.ebay.de/itm/Titanium-TIG-Welding-rod-wire-045-ERTi-1-great-for-aluminum-anodizing-rack-/261231304223?

Here's where you bought the coffee pot from you use as your borosilicate base cup from http://www.ebay.de/itm/VINTAGE-PYREX-FLAMEWARE-6-9-CUP-GLASS-COFFEE-T-POT-ONLY-7826-B-/310693564458?

I can't find the screen material link right now but it was posted before.

Any of this looking familiar yet Bill?

See i already made a post in a thread covering this before. At the time i made the post i included links to all the items that were bought to build this kit with. At that time his feedback was NOT private. Now after i made that post i have come to realize that you seen what i had posted and changed your feedback to private. But here's the kicker.......... Wait for it........... The whole thread that i posted that on is gone now. :shock: 
That's right, gone!!!! Now their is only one way that could have happened. When i get that last piece of information i need to prove this i'm coming after not you Bill, but your cohort here on the forum who has made this rash of sudden and mysterious information and these flim flam products on ebay possible by being the mole in our system here on the forum that has made it possible. You know i know who you are and maybe not today, but your day is coming soon!


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2013)

Oh yeah, here's the wires http://www.ebay.de/itm/50-feet-18-AWG-Silver-Plated-Teflon-Wire-Black-Red-/111099366122?


Tick tock ! Tick tock !


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## lazersteve (Jul 19, 2013)

Even if it works as advertised, the device is next to useless as the volume of the container will not allow someone to process enough gold filled or karat to pay for the item without running several batches. Anyone who already has nitric acid and distilled water on hand (which the device requires) can refine gold filled and karat without spending nearly $1000 on this 'snake oil'.

Steve


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## niteliteone (Jul 19, 2013)

Palladium said:


> Oh yeah, here's the wires http://www.ebay.de/itm/50-feet-18-AWG-Silver-Plated-Teflon-Wire-Black-Red-/111099366122?
> 
> 
> Tick tock ! Tick tock !



Palladium, 
Why are all those links coming up in German :?: 
Could be another clue if the person speaks German.
No ill will towards any German speaking members here.


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## rickbb (Jul 19, 2013)

Even as a noob to this, just looking at the picture of it I have 95% of the stuff to make my own already. It's basicly like Steves de-plating cell with dilute nitric instead of sulfuric and stainless electrodes.


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2013)

If you have nitric and you have gold filled then the only other thing you need is heat. He's doing nothing but complicating an easy process.
I figure he spent about $25 putting that thing together. He's even try to show up Shor with those kind of prices. Maybe if he had a video or even some instructions i could see the educational value in that, but just asking someone to spend a $1,000 on $25 worth of stuff is nothing short of a scam.


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2013)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200931790547

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261231304223

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310693564458

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111099366122


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## pgms4me (Jul 19, 2013)

Thanks Palladium,for your time and efforts to bring this case to proper justice.I and many other are waiting for the final expose! We need to keep the forum honest and safe.It's hard to believe someone on the forum would be an accomplice to try to bilk so many people out of their hard won cash for so little return.I hope their are few innocent victims.


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## lazersteve (Jul 20, 2013)

Palladium said:


> ... Not only is Bill involved, but i have reason to believe it goes deeper than that with *some senior forum members involved also*. Can't prove it yet but i'm on the trail. And just to make it clear this is not about the system it's self, but about the lies and deceit that is being perpetuated here on the forum. I know who you are !!!!!!



and



Palladium said:


> ... The whole thread that i posted that on is gone now. :shock:
> That's right, gone!!!! *Now their is only one way that could have happened*. ...



Ralph,

Are you insinuating that a *moderator or the forum administrator* (the only 'senior members' who can 'delete' others members posts) is involved in some kind of eBay scam against the forum members? If there is another 'only one way that could happen' that I'm missing, what is the way this can happen? If this is truly your belief, this is quite a big pill to swallow and is a completely absurd idea in my opinion.

Have you considered the following, more logical facts about a 'missing' post/thread:

1) the forum search engine is very cumbersome to use and being unable to locate previous posts is not proof they have been deleted?
2) you may have posted the 'missing' post under one of your other aliases?
3) the forum has been relocated several times to new servers and the posts may have become corrupted or lost in the move.

Ralph, I must admit that your version of the 'facts' is much more intriguing, and would make for a great fiction story on a TV show, but here in reality I don't see any moderator (or the administrator) siding with an eBay scam against the forum population *for any reason*. You claim you are here to 'protect the forum' and in nearly the same breath you imply that a moderator or the administrator is participating in some kind of eBay scam against the forum membership and you are here to expose the wrong doer. 

For those who don't know here is a list of the moderators and administrator who have the power to 'delete other posts and threads':
Noxx, Jo418, Lazersteve, Harold_V, Goldsilverpro, Oz, Lou, 4Metals, and Butcher

I ask all readers to look at the list above and truly ask yourself : Would any of these members be involved in an eBay scam against the forum population?



pgms4me said:


> Thanks Palladium,for your time and efforts to bring this case to proper justice.I and many other are waiting for the final expose! We need to keep the forum honest and safe.It's hard to believe someone on the forum would be an accomplice to try to bilk so many people out of their hard won cash for so little return.I hope their are few innocent victims.



Anyone who believes the fiction about an inside moderator/administrator posted in this thread, is completely out of touch with the forum and it's moderators and administration. Pgms4me: You should really do some research on the group of folks that Ralph is implicating in his accusations before you so readily jump onto his bandwagon.

I encourage others to chime in on the ridiculous idea that Ralph has proposed. I can't wait to see what the other moderators and Noxx think about Ralph implying that one of them is involved in an eBay scam against the forum membership. 

Ralph, if you are not implying that a forum moderator or Noxx is involved in this, then please clarify *who* you feel could have done what you claim here:



Palladium said:


> ... The whole thread that i posted that on is gone now. :shock:
> That's right, gone!!!! *Now their is only one way that could have happened*. ...



What is the 'one way that could happen' ?

Steve


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## Dawg (Jul 20, 2013)

I have been a member of this forum for some time Honestly I find it very hard to believe any of the higher echelon would be involved in this scam


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## butcher (Jul 20, 2013)

I cannot see one person on that list of names (administrator or moderators) that I would suspect of trying to scam members, or being involved in selling something as this simple device for extravagant price's, in fact I can only see these people going out of their way to help members even at cost to themselves. 

I would not doubt it one bit someone joined the forum and learned a few things and is trying to profit from what little they learned, we see that kind of thing often, but to implicate Noxx or a moderator of being involved does seem like a conspiracy theory out of the wilds of imagination, if that is in fact what is being suggested here.

I am interested in what palladium turns up in his research, as I would enjoy seeing someone trying to swindle people out of their hard earned money exposed.


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## niteliteone (Jul 20, 2013)

The only "Senior Member" of the forum I have ever had any kind of financial dealings with is Lazersteve through his on line store.
I feel I received a good bargain with these dealings as he was willing to sell something I was wanting, at a price I felt like paying. I probably could have found some of the items cheaper else where, but when you include shipping on each purchase, things start looking different real fast.
As long as Steve continues to sell these items I will probably continue to buy from Steve as I feel all is fair in our transactions.

Just my 2 cents worth.

PS. Thanks Steve for having your online store. It is a real benefit for some of us here.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 21, 2013)

I haven't posted in awhile, but even still I cannot believe anyone involved with this forum would be covering up for someone attempting to commit a scam.

Perhaps it was something deleted by someone because it was brought to their attention as being a scam?

Or maybe it's one of hundreds of other possibilities. But so far as I am concerned, and being that I have spoken and even done business with some of the moderators, I find it exceedingly difficult to believe any of them would be involved in anything less than honest. I find even the hint of this being possible offensive.

Ralph, I respect you, and the fact you are so involved in this forum. I find your posts are usually spot on in every way. You have been here a long time. Do you honestly believe any of the people who have the ability to delete a post, would have done so for reasons that are not honest? 

Scott


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## Palladium (Jul 21, 2013)

Well well well..... My grandmother always had a saying about the guilty dog. First let me say if you believe for one minute that this isn't happening then believe what you may but i'm not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. I'm a threat to this so called conspiracy as you call it and when your a threat you become a target. Just as that Snowden fellow is. It's funny how every time i post a thread like this Steve you like to jump right into it. You talk about conspiracy theory and then you try and bring the other moderators into it by saying only a moderator could do that and you even bring Noxx of all people into it. Then you say " Does any other members believe this? Then you attack another member and say you should really do your research into what Ralph is saying before you take up his cause. Then you say maybe you posted it under another screen name and from there you go on to belittle the information and try and discredit it by laughing and saying "It sure makes for a great work of fiction". What happened was people were asking questions and starting to follow what i had to say and in you swooped to suppress that line of thinking. Then you go on to call it ridiculous. Why would it be ridiculous if you don't even know if it's the truth or not. Do you know what everybody else does, because i sure don't and neither do you. What guilty people do is to group themselves in with the the innocent so it looks like i'm attacking everyone so the guilty party can hid amongst the innocent. It's funny how when people want to discredit someone they always call them a conspiracy theorist or a nut job. Think i'm lying? Just look throughout history and you will see the same thing repeated over and over. After the first thread got deleted and i posted the 2nd one and raised attention to it so everyone would know it so it couldn't couldn't be deleted a 2nd time also you jumped right in the middle of it. When people don't want you to look at the facts what do they do? They put confusion and misdirection into it so people start talking about everything except the REAL subject at hand, misdirection is what they call it. When you figured out that the information couldn't then be deleted a 2nd time you turned to trying to discredit the one who was screaming from the roof tops about it. You give reasons such as maybe a search engine did it, maybe it was lost when the server moved blah, blah, blah. Really! If you use logic you would know that we haven't moved servers in a long time and that this ebay scam product was just listed recently so that's not the answer either. Well no sir it was erased plain and simple because when i go to search my own post under the search your own post tab it is not there. Explain that! Don't forget i use to be a moderator to and know backwards and forwards how this board works. And why out of all the moderators did YOU seem to be the only one offended by it. I'm going to tell you now, and i know you know what i'm talking about, that you ethics are not what you like to portray them here on the board. I know your ethics and while you have all these people fooled, you ain't fooling me. No sir, not one bit!!!! I've talked to your previous clients, employers, and even people in your personal life who you haven't talked to in years. I probably know you better than anyone here on the forum or yourself for that matter ever will and i've never even meet you, nor do i care to. You have been constantly lobbying against me trying to ban my extra screen names and do everything you can to get me off the board so i don't point these things out to other members. In short i'm a threat to someones agenda and they know it. And their is no doubt in my mind after this you will try it again! It's plain and simple, i'm not going to allow anyone, including you, Mickey mouse, or the Pope to tear down or use information from this forum for their own personal gain. If this forum starts going in that direction then i will make my own personal decision that i don't want to be a part of that and i will just be on my merry way to leave it to be exploit how every the forces that govern it see fit. I will not be part of something i don't believe in and is corrupt. I have not invested the time and effort i have invested only to see this forum used for that. And yes so their is no confusion i am saying someone with admin rights erased it. I'm not sure who to blame yet but now i guess the real question is...... Was it you?


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 21, 2013)

Palladium said:


> when your a threat you become a target. Just as that Snowden fellow is.


Snowden is a target because he broke the law, violated the terms of his confidentiality agreement, and put his personal agenda ahead of all else.



> After the first thread got deleted and i posted the 2nd one and raised attention to it so everyone would know it so it couldn't couldn't be deleted a 2nd time also you jumped right in the middle of it.


I believe 924T started this thread. You got interested after he said he said he thought it was made by a GRF member. That seemed to me to be the first time you connected the device in question with a GRF member.



> this ebay scam product was just listed recently so that's not the answer either. Well no sir it was erased plain and simple because when i go to search my own post under the search your own post tab it is not there.


Palladium, I don't know about any posts you may have made, but this thread appeared 11 days ago with a link to the same item: Gold Filled Scrap Recovery



> And why out of all the moderators did YOU seem to be the only one offended by it.





butcher said:


> I would not doubt it one bit someone joined the forum and learned a few things and is trying to profit from what little they learned, we see that kind of thing often, but to implicate Noxx or a moderator of being involved does seem like a conspiracy theory out of the wilds of imagination, if that is in fact what is being suggested here.


Posted only in the interest of maintaining accurate information on this forum.

Dave


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## lazersteve (Jul 21, 2013)

Ralph,

You live in a fantasy land. 

What I can't understand is why you are trying to drag me into your delusions. 

Have fun chasing white rabbits.

Steve


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## butcher (Jul 21, 2013)

Palladium, 
I can honestly say I have no involvement in selling coffee pots with a couple of wires hanging from them. 

I do find this matter disturbing.

I respect both you and Laser Steve, and feel you have both been major players in the forums success, you both have made major contributions, I do not know either of you personally, or either of your true characters, but I believe both of you to be Honest Men trying to help others with what you are learning.

I Find this exchange between you and Steve lately to be very disturbing, and disruptive to the forum, this tit for tat between two of the forums respected and honored forum members, both of which have been major players in the forum.

If you have proof of a moderator doing any wrong doing by all means we need to know about it.

As far as a missing or deleted post, I can see many reasons why they get deleted, there are records of which posts were deleted and by whom, although we cannot go back and look at content or why the post was deleted (as far as I know), posts get deleted for many reasons, I personally delete posts with foul language, links to spamming or scamming and so on all the time, members often delete their own posts... If you know the date, or subject and so on, or some identifying character I could look through the records to see who deleted a post and when, but I do not know what that would prove.

I really do not understand exactly what this coffee pot scam is all about, I seen the link to a coffee pot cell posted and looked quickly at the link, I could not even tell you what price they were selling it for, or much about it, then we hear it is a forum member involved in selling this gadget, and then you suspect a moderator in cahoots as trying to scam members, which is a serious charge, If this is true we all need to expose any wrong doing,and clean up a mess, but if not, then it does nothing but harm, to make this type of allegation, I also see where there has been bad blood between you and Steve lately, I do not understand what is going on, but I do find it very disturbing to be going on on open forum...

Ralph, If there is any way I can help you to prove any wrong doing by any member I will, even if that includes a moderator, and if you suspect me of wrong doing, another moderator will assist you, as we do wish to expose any problems, or misuse of the forum, this forum has held high standards and we all wish to keep these standards, and will work hard towards that.

But we also cannot have personal attacks of character especially between two of our finer forum members disrupting or setting bad examples, if these are that, just personal attacks.

I would like to see this matter settled in a gentlemanly manner, I do not understand this matter of the coffee pot cell scam, or what is actually going on, I have seen bad blood between you and Laser Steve, I do not understand that, or its history, It is my hope that that is not what this is all about, my concern is for this forum and to see it run as smoothly as possible, and for its success, and I will work to continue to see it be as honest and the best place to learn gold refining as much as I possibly can.

Richard Butcher


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## lazersteve (Jul 21, 2013)

I have no bad blood with Ralph, I'm still trying to figure out where that idea was even born.

On the contrary, I find Ralph's posts very entertaining. 

For the record, yesterday I freely submitted a complete list of all the posts/topics that I have touched since the first day I joined the forum to all of the moderators for review. I have also made a hard copy of this information. None of the other moderators have taken this step yet. I believe one should lead by example.

As a side note, there is also the possibility of posts being deleted by the original author. If you write a post, you can delete it. The moderator logs show all of these deletions as well.

The logs prove that I have not deleted any posts or topics since July 5, 2013. The last post I deleted was on July 5 due to a report being filed and was posted by Nelson82 who I also banned for spamming the same day. The post before that was deleted on June 17, 2013 and was posted by Rodthrower18, if memory serves me correctly I was cleaning up an accidental double post to the thread on flatpak processing. FrugalRefiner stated above that the entire subject in question started 11 days ago. Seeing how my last two deletions were 16 and 30+ days ago, I guess this puts me 'in the clear' in Ralph's who dun-it 'investigation'. My first post on this thread marks the first knowledge and contact I have had with this entire subject in any way.

Steve


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## Palladium (Jul 21, 2013)

The whole point about Snowden is how we like to..... Oh never mind. And as far as fantasy land and white rabbits..... You just keep on prodding me and messing with me Steve and i will disclose things that will blow you mind as to what i know about you. You would have figured by now that you would have learned not to even talk to me, but for some reason you can't take a hint. Stay out of my way and i will stay out of yours, but when you decide to jump in the mix as far as i'm concerned your fair game. Don't play the victim part after it is done. And what do you mean i'm dragging you into this? You put yourself into this. The only reason their is any personal attack is because i stated something and you took offense to it or you never would have posted like you did. Your the one who keeping talking about fiction, fantasy land, and conspiracy theory. I didn't attack, i just defended. The reason i ask the members name is because i actually wanted to talk to the guy for reasons i won't reveal ( nothing bad ) but after i realized what the item was i remembered making the post and when i went back to find it so i could post a link to it it was gone, poof! Then i realized that once the post was gone i went to check his feedback and all the sudden it was private. Strange i guess. It's not just that that leads me to believe what i know. I have other indicators and proof i use to figure things out. I'm not a fool to make accusations like that unfounded and without evidence. It was about 2 weeks ago Butcher i'm sorry i can't remember exactly when and god forbid i would ever accuse you of anything. Quiet the contrary, i hold your position in the highest regards and respect you immensely sir. When i put the nail in this coffin, and i will, then it will all seem clear and the truth will be known. I'm going to take a break from the forum for awhile anyway and see how things turn out here. I've got some decisions to make and to tell you the truth i'm not sure what those will be yet. I'm done with it!!!!!


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## solar_plasma (Jul 21, 2013)

Are you guys talking about an overpriced coffee pot?

Since my last dispute with Thomas, I think twice, if I really feel the need to post something into the forum and I think twice, what I write and how I write.... and I thought twice after each post in this thread. Now, I take position, since I am a part of this forum.

I like you all and highly respect you.

Palladium
As someone who is an outside standing observer in this story, I feel the need to say, there was nothing suspect in the posts in this thread. I would have felt offended as a moderator and would have reacted in some way and pretty much would I have used the same words, which you think sound even more suspect.

I don't know what proofs you have or if you went astray, which easily can happen to everyone and the person itself will not know it. But as someone standing a bit outside, being a bit new, I would beg you, put proofs on the table or deal the situation via pm.

Do not feel, I am against you, - I am against nobody here and everybody can try to get whatever price for any nonsens at ebay, I really really don't mind. I just like you all, I like this forum and when you guys, some of the most respected, our big bro's, have such a dark cloud between you publicly, then it feels really bad also to me. And I feel the need to say that, because I am pretty sure, there are a lot of other "little bro's", who feel the same way, just don't dare to post it or believe they are not in the position to post their opinion.

Btw. some well known behavioral studies proofed that in such a situation both parties are losing some confidence points in the eyes of the observers, - neverminding what comes out or if anything comes out at the end. 

Cheers


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## niteliteone (Jul 21, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> Are you guys talking about an overpriced coffee pot?
> (snip)
> I like you all and highly respect you.
> 
> ...



It is a lot more than this one item. I think he is referring to individual research done by other members and then the information sold on ebay.
A little over a year ago a member here copied all of Samual's personal videos and procedures from his website and made a CD that they then were selling it on ebay with out Samual's permission.

Also I agree with your above post that this needs to be done out of our sight.

PS, Hope we are OK 8)


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 21, 2013)

If I am thinking about the person who is selling this product, in a methodical and intelligent way, this is the conclusion I could come to:



niteliteone said:


> Why are all those links coming up in German :?:
> Could be another clue if the person speaks German.
> No ill will towards any German speaking members here.



Checking the OP's ebay, and entering the information in Google, you find that he also maintains a presence on the German version of Ebay:

http://myworld.ebay.de/rhino_mining/

This isn't the same page as you find on his American Ebay profile page:

http://myworld.ebay.com/rhino_mining?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

If you notice there are no items for sale on his German profile, but are on his US profile



924T said:


> Palladium---------the only 3 things I know about this GRF member are that his first name is Bill, the company name
> is Rhino Mining, and he's in Pittsburg, PA.



The fact that "Bill" lives in PA has significance. In Pa there live a large community of Amish, who speak a hybrid version of German called Pennsylvania German.

So we could assume, if willing to take this as proof, that Bill speaks German. 

There is a Rhino Mining company in South Africa:

http://www.southafrica-companies.com/rhino-mining-supplies-and-equipment-13o7r/

Afrikaans is a direct descendant of 17th century Dutch, which is widely spoken in South Africa, and which is also a German language.

The Amish in Pa are also in a large part, Dutch, and their Pa German language is also a derivative of Dutch/German

So now we can assume, if we are willing to, that Bill not only speaks German, but got the idea for his business name from the South African company by the same name, and maybe have some association with someone in South Africa who speaks German, or a flavor of German, or that he is from South Africa, or visited, or any number of other associations.

We can also take a wild guess, and assume that "Bill' is Amish

Which is interesting, because there is in fact, a group of Amish in Pa who are attempting to refine e-waste, gold scrap jewelry and catalytic converters. I have spoken with them through a customer of mine, they were looking for information on refining catalytic converters specifically, but engaged me on refining karat scrap and e-waste as well. They evidently have a fairly large operation going.

So I could, after just a little time looking into the information provided, construe all these things, that the person who posted this piece of equipment for sale is Dutch or German, may have spent time in South Africa or has dealings with people in South Africa, and is Amish.

And even though the proof is leading, and seems fairly solid, all of it could be smoke. Meaning that all of it, part of it or in fact none of it might be true. No matter how convincing the information may seem, it still does not mean any of it is true. It's our choice after learning this information to believe or not believe.

However, either would be wrong even if it were right because there exists no empirical data, there is no actual hard core proof. If you have to choose to believe or not, and have no actual hard evidence, it's wrong morally to choose anything. Guessing and proving a theory is one thing, but alleging anything without evidence is wrong, accusing is wrong.

Anyone with half a brain who is posting anything for sale on ebay, that they claim will refine any type of precious metal would be an incredible idiot NOT to read, and take, information from this forum. As it is probably the single most important repository of information anywhere on the internet, and probably any library or college anywhere in the world. It would be more surprising by far, that someone would NOT use information contained within this forum, in the creation of equipment that allows people to refine precious metals.

I would also expect that same person to WANT to be a member of this forum. They would be mentally constipated if they did not want to be.

They are probably laughing right now as they read this

But even these assumptions could be wrong, and utterly incorrect. It could be someone else who belongs to this forum giving information to someone else so that they get a percentage of the profit. But really, what does it matter? This forum has been made public, and the information available for anyone who can connect to it, to read and learn. Isn't that the entire point?

But what I find highly unlikely is that someone who has their own website, selling their own items, that are not pre-assumbled into a gold refining unit, and extremely reasonably prices, sticking their neck out for anyone selling a cheeseball unit on ebay that is not only way over priced but uses none of the techniques that Steve has written about, or is selling parts for.

I would have a hard time believing Steve would be involved in any scam to start with, but I would also have a hard time believing this even if I didn't know Steve from the forum, and only based this belief on the information readily available. It just doesn't add up, nor does it make any sense.

You can lead people to believe anything, Politicians prove this every time they open their mouth, but in doing so are you serving justice? Or are you only supporting your argument, and only then because you are emotionally attached to your beliefs and strongly desire to be right?

Scott


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## 4metals (Jul 21, 2013)

Ralph,

Forums have a way of being extremely impersonal. I have spoken to a very few members on the phone (you included) and even met a few but for the most part everyone is pretty much a blank canvas. The same is true among moderators, we essentially know each other from our posts rather than from personal first hand knowledge. 

I do know that moderators have spent considerable time making posts and helping members through their problems and because of that they become moderators. Being a moderator is a thankless job, and any insinuation that "one of us" is less than honest is quite honestly a slap in the face to all of us. 

The internet provides us with a lot of information, some of it useful and some of it junk, it is up to us to sort it out. It is obvious that some have seen this forum as a source of good information and deemed it worthy of sale. To claim that information as ones own when it has been plagiarized from this forum is wrong and personally I would not be supportive of anyone doing this, in fact I would be in favor of banning such an individual. But there needs to be proof, not insinuation and not idle threat. I have seen a picture that I took of a setup I built being used in a gallery of a refiner claiming it as his own. There were few who would ever know this to be the case but I called them and told them that if they kept that image on their site, I would have no choice but to inform the real owner of the equipment and they would likely have an attorney call him. The picture was removed quickly. This kind of thing happens quite often when you post an image on the internet, short of putting a watermark on all of your posted images there are not a lot of options. The same is true when you post a you tube video or a procedure on the forum. There are even members posting a disclaimer with their posts, talk about CYA! 

If there has been a serious ethical violation here, the guilty party needs to be exposed but it cannot be a fishing expedition, this isn't CNN covering the OJ Simson trial, enough with the drama. If there are facts, post them, if not get over it. Threads like this one drag the forum down, lets get back to refining questions and real issues about assays, melting, leaching and all the interesting stuff! 

As a moderator I am insulted to be put on the short list of suspects for questionable behavior and I stand with my fellow moderators who constantly are striving to maintain a high bar for this forum.


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## Harold_V (Jul 22, 2013)

I've tried to digest the contents of this thread before making any statements. One thing I know---no one on this board should be tried by a court that has been provided with more than enough innuendo, and nothing of fact. 

Ralph, 
Cease and desist immediately. Do not make any more comments that allude to anyone's character. If you can't post irrefutable facts, say nothing until you can. If your assumptions are incorrect, no matter how much will be said after the fact, damage will have been done. I do not find that acceptable. 

I have no qualms about having negative information disclosed about any of those of us who are on the board, assuming it's pertinent to the purpose and operation of the board. If it is not, don't post it here. That's not what we're about.

I'd like to see this subject come to an immediate end, or charges be leveled, accompanied by supporting evidence. Any further innuendo is not going to be permitted. 

Harold 

Any further threats by any party will come at great expense, so give careful thought to comments that may be posted. 

Harold


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## 924T (Jul 22, 2013)

Getting back to a Nitric cell, I'd like to know if one could melt computer pins into an anode bar and recover
the gold from them in a Nitric cell?

There's the chance of Copper, Tin, Kovar, and Beryllium being in the ingot, and I suspect that tin would 
be a factor.

Cheers,

Mike


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## its-all-a-lie (Jul 22, 2013)

924T said:


> Getting back to a Nitric cell, I'd like to know if one could melt computer pins into an anode bar and recover
> the gold from them in a Nitric cell?
> 
> There's the chance of Copper, Tin, Kovar, and Beryllium being in the ingot, and I suspect that tin would
> ...




Why melt them? The process would be much more simple if they were run intact rather than melting them together into a large mass. Nitric will rid them of any base metals and leave the gold foils behind to be processed in AR. This "cell" will only make a simple process complex.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 22, 2013)

its-all-a-lie said:


> 924T said:
> 
> 
> > Getting back to a Nitric cell, I'd like to know if one could melt computer pins into an anode bar and recover
> ...



If you are running a copper cell, melting pins into a homogeneous anode and processing is a viable option, you would be recovering any gold as well as any other metals associated with the copper base the pins are made of, as anode slime. But I would think this only would be a cost effective viable option for a large amount of pins that were copper base, with gold plate.

Another option would be to use a sulfuric stripping cell, but this wouldn't be a good option if you have a large quantity of pins to run.

Another option would be to melt into a homogenous alloy, and then to atomize to a small enough size that you can then use a wet acid process to dissolve/precipitate selectively

You could also use an Iodide process, cyanide process, AR, AP, etc etc etc. Each having their merits and downsides.

Point is that there are many different ways to recover and refine material of this nature that to suggest a specific way is really just expression your own personal preference based on your own personal experience. Each refiner should learn about the recovery and refining processes they feel comfortable with, and then choose accordingly based on their own criteria which is better for what type and amount of material.

I will say this, although what the OP originally posted might work, it certainly is not a very well thought out design, nor is it worth even a fraction of the amount of money being asked for it. In short, it's a cheeseball way of processing material of the type it claims to be able to do so. The ebay seller should be dragged out in the street, and repeatedly beaten with a stick, and then find the mold that made him, and break that as well, then go further and find the mold maker and treat him in kind. 

I like seeing these types of solutions posted on this forum, it gives people that know an opportunity to defunct or discount their quackery so that when searched on google and the like, people will come across this thread read and hopefully realize that what sounded so amazing on ebay, is really just another ebay seller preying on people that don't know better!

Scott


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## Harold_V (Jul 22, 2013)

Before jumping in on the concept of a copper parting cell, do keep in mind, such cells tend to work very best with relatively pure metals. If the level of contamination is too high, electrolyte life suffers, so the process doesn't really work well. It can reach a point of failure in just a few hours, with very little work having been accomplished. Part of the problem you'd experience is copper sloughing off and recombining with the slimes. That defeats the purpose of the cell. Been there, done that, didn't like the end result. 

Melting electronic scrap surely wouldn't work unless you could raise the level of copper and lower the levels of other base metals. That can be accomplished in the furnace, at least eliminating zinc, which would be a serious problem. Your best bet with plated items such as pins is to strip with a sulfuric cell. 

Harold


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## Debbi Brys (Jul 23, 2013)

A scam?


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## Debbi Brys (Jul 24, 2013)

In nitric, gold becomes mud or sludge.
I am curious. I am thinking about the Refineit Gold Refining System.
During a electrolytic nitric process, would not the gold be attracted to the cathode and attach to it?
Since you don't want gold sticking on the cathode.
A filter paper barrior is used to keep that from happening.
What is the micron rating of the filter paper?
Could I use a regular coffee filter as the anode filter bag? 
Or would a regular paper coffee filter will fall apart in hot nitric after 12- 24 hours? 
Why is ashless filter paper recommended? 
Anyone know about this?
Deb


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 24, 2013)

Debbi Brys said:


> In nitric, gold becomes mud or sludge.



Nitric Acid alone does not dissolve gold, so gold does not become a mud or sludge in nitric acid. What does happen is all the other metals are parted from the gold, and the gold is left behind. That might be what you are calling mud or sludge, but the Nitric Acid doesn't cause this, it's the parting of the metals and the gold being left behind.



Debbi Brys said:


> I am curious. I am thinking about the Refineit Gold Refining System.
> During a electrolytic nitric process, would not the gold be attracted to the cathode and attach to it?



The gold is not attracted to the cathode, because it never is dissolved into solution.




Debbi Brys said:


> Since you don't want gold sticking on the cathode.
> A filter paper barrior is used to keep that from happening.
> What is the micron rating of the filter paper?



The gold is never dissolved into solution, so the filter bag is only there to retain the gold that does not dissolve into solution. The micron size is small enough so that the small grains of gold do not fall to the bottom and have to be filtered later.



Debbi Brys said:


> Could I use a regular coffee filter as the anode filter bag?
> Or would a regular paper coffee filter will fall apart in hot nitric after 12- 24 hours?
> Why is ashless filter paper recommended?
> Anyone know about this?
> Deb



You could probably use a regular polyproplyne anode bag like this:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...evice=c&geo_id=10232&keyword=anode+bag&crdt=0

The entire process is fairly well known. You can do a search of the forum and come up with all the information you need, and probably answer all your questions as well. Also, you can read patents online and find many different designs and processes that cover this exact subject.

Scott


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## Debbi Brys (Jul 25, 2013)

Could I use a regular coffee filter as the anode filter bag in a nitric cell? 
Or would a paper coffee filter will fall apart in hot nitric after 12- 24 hours, and tear as I remove it with my gold? 
Why is ashless filter paper recommended?
Deb


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## Debbi Brys (Jul 25, 2013)

Come on guys you can do better than that!
Avoiding my questions and passing the buck?
That isnot going to fly with me.
Could I use a regular coffee filter as the gold alloy anode filter bag in a nitric cell? 
Would a regular paper coffee filter will fall apart in hot nitric after 12- 24 hours? 
Why is ashless filter paper recommended? 
What is the micron rating of the filter paper required?
Anyone know ?
Deb


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## Gold (Jul 25, 2013)

Now why on earth would you post a question wait 10 mins and then chastise people for not answering you by demanding an answer almost immediately. Do you feel that is motivation for someone to answer you? Then you want someone to freely share knowledge with you, but yet you demand it almost as if you are entitled to it just for the sake of asking. The answers to what you are asking are here i can guarantee it! Don't get frustrated, search!


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## solar_plasma (Jul 25, 2013)

@gold
He or she has asked that before in this thread.

@deb
There are many possibities why a question not gets answered. Sometimes it shows too clearly, that someone hasn't searched enough and the answer is already given some hundred times by those, who know the answer. If this is not the case, maybe nobody feels sure enough to answer it with proof facts. The only people here who are in the position to tell what "flies" and what not, are the moderators and noxx and maybe some of the most merited veterans. If you want to get many answers in future, it might be a good idea to get very polite and modest in the next words you are posting. I don't want to offend you, it is only a well meaned advice.


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## rickbb (Jul 25, 2013)

@deb, people are not here all day every day. Most of us just check in once a day if that much. Not a place for instant answers.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 25, 2013)

Debbi Brys said:


> Come on guys you can do better than that!
> Avoiding my questions and passing the buck?
> That isnot going to fly with me.
> Could I use a regular coffee filter as the gold alloy anode filter bag in a nitric cell?
> ...



I have to admit that I'm a little shocked by the way you are demanding.

All the information you seek in here, in the forum. All you need to do is search for it.

Also you can use google and use terms like "what is ashless filter paper"

If you use paper in Nitric Acid, you run a chance of creating Nitrocellulose

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose

I gave you an example of what you should use, they are used for exactly the purpose you are asking about, if you choose to ignore it I am not sure what else to tell you.

If you are asking for information so that you can build a system of your own, you might want to search the forum as well for examples of those types of solutions and what other people have done before you. If you are looking for information so you can build, and sell these types of units then you really should learn a bit more about the process, which in turn would answer your questions, before you attempt to do so.

As I am posting this, I am also working, refining my own material, matter of fact I only have a few days to do so because I have to be somewhere to help a family member. I would venture to say that most people who have the type of information you are hoping to find here, are also working, that's why they have this information because this is the type of work they do. If you do not get an answer right away, it's probably because there is nobody available with free time to answer you back. 

I can tell you this, and you can search for it in the forum so you understand what I mean. People who have a sense of entitlement are offensive. It's been talked about more than a little bit. 

Also you might want to remember that the time that people take to answer you, is time out of their life that they are devoting to answering your questions. They are not paid, they are not rewarded for doing so, and in many cases they are imparting hard won knowledge that may have taken them years to accumulate. People who do not attempt to help themselves before they ask questions are also talked about on this forum.

And finally, what really concerns me is that you are seeking information it seems, to build your own system, but have not yet learned enough to understand how the process works, that nitric acid alone does not dissolve gold, and if coffee filters can or should be used. If you are truly attempting this on any level, you should already have learned enough to know these things. My suggestion to you would be to stop, stop thinking about operating a piece of equipment like this, stop asking questions you should be learning during the process of learning about refining. Pick up C. M. Hoke, Refining Precious Metal Waste, it's on this forum in electronic format and will give you a good start. 

As far as I am concerned, I am done attempting to answer your questions, or helping you, until such a time as you show that you are trying to help yourself. It's not the responsibility of people on this forum to answer your questions, and certainly not at your beck and call. 

Scott

Edited:

I wanted to say thank you to Debbi Brys for sending me a PM and being so nice. I understand much better now, and probably was a little harsh in my response, if I was I apologize.

Scott


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## Gold (Jul 25, 2013)

You should be able to use a double layer of Muslin cloth. It's cheap, economical, and efficient. You can find it online or at Wal-Mart.


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## Geo (Jul 25, 2013)

some people use vacuum cleaner bags. cut out the shape you need. i believe most bags trap particles as small as 1 micron (a coffee filter is 5 microns).


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## Debbi Brys (Jul 26, 2013)

I am currently reading Hoke, Seems that the average beginner backyard gold refiner has many choices of refining technique. Chemicals, electrolyte process, etc.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 26, 2013)

Debbi Brys said:


> Come on guys you can do better than that!
> Avoiding my questions and passing the buck?
> That isnot going to fly with me.


Hi Debby,

maybe no one is answering your question as you are asking the wrong ones. I haven't heard of anyone on the forum that actually uses a nitric cell for recovering gold from pins. I can't find any reason to why anyone would like to do that.

I'm no expert on electrolytic cells but I've been interested in them for a long time.

A couple of years before GRF I tried to run a copper cell with sulfuric acid (aiming for removing the copper from gold plated pins) but it soon got depleted of copper. I then tried to add some copper nitrate and at that time I learned that acid and a salt creates the corresponding salt in the end. I could feel the smell of nitric acid. I don't know if it was just a reaction with the sulfuric acid in the electrolyte or a result from the electrolysis of a nitric salt. The result was that I finally had to shut down the cell in the end.

Based on my tiny bit of experience and what I have read about the subject I wonder if there wouldn't be a couple of big disadvantages with running a parting cell based on nitric chemistry compared to the classical sulphate cell?

- Nitric ions could be (is?) turned into nitric acid via electrolysis and can escape as gas.
- Nitric acid reacting with metals releases NOx gases and uses up the nitrates.
+ Sulphate ions that is turned into sulfuric acid which is absorbed and stays in the solution.
+ The only gases escaping from a sulphate cell is hydrogen and oxygen, easily replaced with some water.
- If you have too high voltage in a nitrate cell you can oxidize the gold into gold nitrate that is soluble and could be deposited on the cathode. (I don't know this but I would guess it could be that way)
+ If you have too high voltage in a sulphate cell any gold dissolved is precipitated back as a black powder as the gold sulphate is thermodynamic unstable.

This is only something pulled from my fallible brain so please comment.

Is there any reason to select nitric chemistry for a cell except a silver cell?

Göran


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 26, 2013)

g_axelsson said:


> Based on my tiny bit of experience and what I have read about the subject I wonder if there wouldn't be a couple of big disadvantages with running a parting cell based on nitric chemistry compared to the classical sulphate cell?





g_axelsson said:


> - Nitric ions could be (is?) turned into nitric acid via electrolysis and can escape as gas.


You are using Nitric Acid as the electrolyte, I don't understand what you mean by "turned into nitric acid" it already is.



g_axelsson said:


> - Nitric acid reacting with metals releases NOx gases and uses up the nitrates.


The process does produce some toxic fumes, how much depends on the amount of silver for example, present in the gold alloy.



g_axelsson said:


> + Sulphate ions that is turned into sulfuric acid which is absorbed and stays in the solution.


Are you talking about a sulfuric cell? Or are you talking about sulphate ions being present in a Nitric Acid Parting Cell? I don't understand, I will assume that the + means that it's a sulfuric cell you are talking about. In a Sulfuric "stripping" cell, simply stated, the sulfuric acid is transformed during the electrolytic process to persulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid does not dissolve gold alone, but persulfuric acid can. When the electrolysis is stopped, the persulfuric acid simply returns to sulfuric acid, and since sulfuric acid cannot hold gold in solution, the gold drops out of solution as a fine black sand. But you are not creating anymore sulfuric acid, it's just transitioning from one state to another.



g_axelsson said:


> + The only gases escaping from a sulphate cell is hydrogen and oxygen, easily replaced with some water.


You do not want to add water to a sulfuric cell, you don't want to add water to sulfuric acid as it will spatter on contact, you never add water to acid but rather acid to water, You should be using as high a concentration of sulfuric acid as is possible, so if you loose any water, this actually would be a good thing. Matter of fact, you should cover or contain the sulfuric acid when not used because it will gain water if exposed to humidity and become less concentrated if exposed to air for too long a period of time.



g_axelsson said:


> - If you have too high voltage in a nitrate cell you can oxidize the gold into gold nitrate that is soluble and could be deposited on the cathode. (I don't know this but I would guess it could be that way)


Gold is one of the least reactive metals on the reactivity scale, it's not going to dissolve into the nitric acid electrolyte, thus it's not going to plate out. I think what you may be thinking about is the Wohlwill process, in where you start with chloroauric acid as the electrolyte and have a pure gold cathode to plate out on, and your alloyed gold you are intending to part as the anode.



g_axelsson said:


> + If you have too high voltage in a sulphate cell any gold dissolved is precipitated back as a black powder as the gold sulphate is thermodynamic unstable.


You should not have too high a voltage, it's the correct voltage and amps applied in the correct way that turns the sulfuric acid into persulfuric acid which can dissolve gold. It doesn't precipitate gold as black powder, but rather cannot hold the gold once the persulfuric acid changes back to sulfuric acid, and thus is forced out of solution as a fine black sand/powder.



g_axelsson said:


> Is there any reason to select nitric chemistry for a cell except a silver cell?
> 
> Göran



There is a very good reason to use a nitric parting cell, as opposed to a sulfuric stripping cell, and vice/versa. Each recover gold from different types of material. A sulfuric stripping cell works with gold that is electroplated on another metal that is able to conduct electricity. But it shouldn't be used to part gold from other metals that are alloyed together. While a gold parting cell using nitric acid as an electrolyte is able to part alloyed gold, without having to upgrade or "inquart" the alloyed gold prior to processing. They are two totally different methods used for different types of material. Both have merits, and both have downsides just like with any process we use to refine any metals.

Scott


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## g_axelsson (Jul 26, 2013)

Maybe I was a bit unclear, I tried to compare a copper parting cell based on nitric or sulphate chemistry.

I know the proper way to run both a sulfuric deplating cell, a silver cell or a copper parting cell and even a Wohlwill gold cell. I thought the discussion was about a nitrate salt based parting cell and I tried to make a case for the drawbacks by comparing it to a sulphate based parting cell.

I'm not going into details in all your comments as it's based on a misunderstanding of what I tried to say, but I just have one question. As you wrote...


NobleMetalWorks said:


> There is a very good reason to use a nitric parting cell, as opposed to a sulfuric stripping cell, and vice/versa. Each recover gold from different types of material. A sulfuric stripping cell works with gold that is electroplated on another metal that is able to conduct electricity. But it shouldn't be used to part gold from other metals that are alloyed together. While a gold parting cell using nitric acid as an electrolyte is able to part alloyed gold, without having to upgrade or "inquart" the alloyed gold prior to processing. They are two totally different methods used for different types of material. Both have merits, and both have downsides just like with any process we use to refine any metals.
> 
> Scott


Could you please describe how a nitric parting cell works or give a reference to a posting about it. I have failed to find such a posting so far.
You wrote that 


NobleMetalWorks said:


> Gold is one of the least reactive metals on the reactivity scale, it's not going to dissolve into the nitric acid electrolyte, thus it's not going to plate out.


 Wouldn't carat gold that isn't inquarted shield any alloyed metal unless the gold actually goes into solution? Either carat gold is shielding the base metals and you need inquartation to gain access or you dissolve the gold in some way. You can't have it both ways.

Göran


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 27, 2013)

g_axelsson said:


> Could you please describe how a nitric parting cell works or give a reference to a posting about it. I have failed to find such a posting so far.



The current passing through nitric acid, acting as the electrolyte, causes oxidation of the silver and base metals in anode. The following ionic reaction then occurs:

AG--AG++e-

Cu--Cu+.sup.2 +2e-

Zn--Zn+.sup.2 +2e-

and so on, depending on the other metal alloys in your anode basket.

When these metal particles come into contact with the cathode, they immediately react with the nitric acid forming nitrate salts, Ag(NO.sub.3), Cu(NO.sub.3).sub.2, Zn(NO.sub.3).sub.2, which are readily soluble in the water present in the electrolyte.

Because gold has a high resistance to oxidation, it never dissolves into solution and thus is left behind in the anode basket filter as fine sand or what some people might call mud, or anode slime, etc. 

This is just a basic explanation of what is going on, without giving details on voltage or amperage, the distance from anode to cathode, the percentages of nitric to distilled water and many other details that would be needed in order to build and operate a cell of this nature.

You wrote that 


NobleMetalWorks said:


> Gold is one of the least reactive metals on the reactivity scale, it's not going to dissolve into the nitric acid electrolyte, thus it's not going to plate out.





g_axelsson said:


> Wouldn't carat gold that isn't inquarted shield any alloyed metal unless the gold actually goes into solution? Either carat gold is shielding the base metals and you need inquartation to gain access or you dissolve the gold in some way. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> Göran



If I were using strictly a hydrometallurgical method to dissolve the metals into solution, such as Nitric Acid without using electrical current, I would have to upgrade the silver content or "inquart" so that the silver content was a high enough percentage that the gold was not able to protect it from being attacked by the Nitric Acid.

However, when you use Nitric Acid as an electrolyte, you are oxidizing the base metals, and then turning them to their salts at the cathode which are soluble in water. So to make simple what I am saying, instead of converting the base metals directly into their nitrate salt state, they are oxidized first, then change to their nitrate salt after contact with the cathod and soluble in water so dissolve into solution right away.

Sometimes, if too much voltage is applied to the anode, the gold can build up with the oxidized metals and create a shell that can protect for a short time the metal underneath, but as soon as the metal underneath is oxidized, it breaks the layer of oxidized metals on the outside, and the gold caught in the oxidized layer falls to the bottom of the anode basket.

I hope this clears things up a little.

Scott


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## Geo (Jul 27, 2013)

you can inquart with copper but it would take 4 times as much nitric acid to inquart with copper rather than silver. the principle is the same but the economics tell us to use silver.


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## Debbi Brys (Jul 29, 2013)

Thank you everyone so much for helping me, with my newbee questions. Are facts about the original Refineit Gold Refining System here in the forum? May I ask. Anyone actually have experience with it? Will someone please direct me to the correct area within this forum to look? I am not demanding answers. But I am still curious. I am still having a filter choice problem. Yes, muslin cloth and vacuum filter was recommended by a couple of you here. I am wondering if this material is ashless when burned along with the refined gold. And, from what I am learning. It makes sense, that the refined gold in the cell wont plate out on the cathode if the power supply is adjusted within a reasonable limit. Later, Deb


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## Debbi Brys (Jul 29, 2013)

I am posting this in two different places. I hope I don't get into trouble. I am sorry if I just broke a rule. Thank you everyone so much for helping me, with my newbee questions. Are facts about the original Refineit Gold Refining System here in the forum? May I ask. Anyone actually have experience with it? Can anyone please direct me to the correct area within this forum to look? I am not demanding answers. I am still curious. I am still having a filter choice problem. Yes, muslin cloth and a vacuum filter bag was recommended by a couple of you. I am wondering if this material is ashless when burned along with the refined gold. And, from what I am learning. It makes sense, in a typical nitric cell, the refined gold in the cell wont plate out on the cathode. If the power supply is adjusted within a reasonable limit. Later, Deb


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## jimdoc (Jul 29, 2013)

Debbi Brys said:


> I am posting this in two different places. I hope I don't get into trouble. I am sorry if I just broke a rule. Thank you everyone so much for helping me, with my newbee questions. Are facts about the original Refineit Gold Refining System here in the forum? May I ask. Anyone actually have experience with it? Can anyone please direct me to the correct area within this forum to look? I am not demanding answers. I am still curious. I am still having a filter choice problem. Yes, muslin cloth and a vacuum filter bag was recommended by a couple of you. I am wondering if this material is ashless when burned along with the refined gold. And, from what I am learning. It makes sense, in a typical nitric cell, the refined gold in the cell wont plate out on the cathode. If the power supply is adjusted within a reasonable limit. Later, Deb




Yes this is a rule. This post will be deleted, so anybody wants to answer, find the other post.

Jim


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## rickbb (Jul 29, 2013)

OK I was going to post in the other place but couldn't find it. :lol: 

To get an ash less bag you'd have to buy one made for that purpose, muslin or a vac bag will not be ash less. But ash is not that hard to separate from gold using wash water or standard panning techniques.


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## jimdoc (Jul 29, 2013)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=18822&p=190875#p190875


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## rickbb (Jul 29, 2013)

To get an ash less bag you'd have to buy one made for that purpose, muslin or a vac bag will not be ash less. But ash is not that hard to separate from gold using wash water or standard panning techniques.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 29, 2013)

What is the intent behind your questions?

My concern is that you are attempting to re-create the Refineit system yourself. If that is the case then I'm not sure I feel comfortable adding more information to this thread for these reasons.

You do not understand the process well enough to build and operate a cell of this nature on your own. It took a lot of reading for me to get to the point where I understand the process, and am able to talk about it. Yet still, if I were building this cell, I would be constantly referring to my reading material to ensure I was building the cell properly.

If people post on this thread, and you have all your questions answered and then attempt to build a cell of this type on your own, I would be concerned that you did not understand enough to ask all the right questions in order to do so with any measure of success.

If you do not build the cell properly, and then attempt to operate it, then you could have an accident that could cause you great bodily harm, or worse. I would then in part be responsible. If you built a cell based on what you have learned in this thread, and sold it to someone else, and it caused bodily harm or worse I would also be responsible to some extent, as well as you, and whoever else you sold a cell to.

To answer your latest question, ashless paper is used in this application not so much to burn and create less ash, as is it's normal purpose, but because of it's high purity and the fact it does not leach any metals or minerals into your solution. The paper is sometimes washed with HCl and then HF to remove the base metals and minerals, then HNO3 to make it stiff/hard. Ashless paper is commonly used in the lab for the purpose of analysis because when it's burned it leaves behind little or no ash. But in this application I believe it's used because of it's high purity, it's ability to retain it's shape, and it's resistance to acids used in the process.

Scott


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## 924T (Aug 6, 2013)

Is there any advantage at all to the 360 degree cathode?

Not being very knowledgeable about cathodes yet, I had thought the 'surround' cathode looked to be
a pretty good innovation.

I've ordered in a small Titanium anode basket from England, and was thinking about building both a 
plate cathode Nitric cell and a 'surround' cathode nitric cell, and comparing the results-------but, if the
plate cathode is superior, I'll just stick with that.

Cheers,

Mike


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## Palladium (Aug 6, 2013)

You could just use a stainless steel bowl or cup. :mrgreen: 

Basically it's the same design as a silver cell.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Aug 6, 2013)

924T said:


> Is there any advantage at all to the 360 degree cathode?



The cathode should fit the reaction vessel/container. If you are using a round container, then perhaps a round cathode is best. it's the surface area that matters, you can have the same surface area with one flat cathode, or you can bend the flat cathode into a 360 degree cathode. I believe one reason for 360 degree cathodes is so they can slowly rotate against a blade that scraps off the metal being plated on the cathode so the scraping process can be automated instead of manual. It's safer, uses less labor, and can operate 24/7.

But if you are not plating out on the cathode, I think the only other reason to use a 360 degree cathode would be to fit into a specific vessel/container.

Scott


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## stevenh (Aug 9, 2013)

rickbb said:


> @deb, people are not here all day every day. Most of us just check in once a day if that much. Not a place for instant answers.



The one thing I've learned from my lengthy research is, nothing about refining and recovery is easy or instant. With persistent searching, the answers are likely out there (or in here :mrgreen: ) and patience is truly a required virtue.


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