# My first melt is nothing impressive



## Lonnie (Feb 23, 2011)

I sure wish all of these silver contacts would melt as easy as the coin grade contacts . The ones alloyed with tungston are impossable for me to melt . With a better torch you might melt them but with my propane set up I can't touch them . Thats really bugged me over the years as I've collected them up . I always figured I'd come up with a way of getting the silver removed and melted and I finally did it . 

It's nothing impressive mind you but still I feel good about it just the same . I do think they would look better if I had a crusable and perhaps some flux . I melted them in open air on a slab of graphite . I have a new crusable but wasn't wanting to use it on these or the powder I tumbled off untill I test melted some of it . I finally did it so next time I'll use the crusable for sure and maybe some powdered borax . 

Now to get a few things finished and get serious about converting these contacts to silver . 







Heres a pic of the big melt LOL 2 whole grams . It's not as perty as I'd like to see it but do think it will do better with bigger melts and some flux in a crusable . This was the first time to melt cemented silver and it was a bit different than just melting regular contacts . 






These dag gum things are heavy but only 52% silver . Still half of that tray would look nice in my collection if it were in nice shinny bars that I could say I refined . I'm still a long ways from being able to say it's 99.99 fine silver but can see me getting there sometime soon 8) 






I just got to thinking I hope these are cropped down small enough . I need to know what the size limits on pics are in here . 






And finally heres a pic of the cemented silver before melting . No big deal to most but being the first time I ever refined any I feel good about my ugly little melt LOL 











I'm not going to say just what this is just to see if anyone can tell me what I did wrong LOL


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 23, 2011)

It would be better if you process the contact's before you contaminate a new crucible melting the old ones. The ones with tungesten man are you going to have fun racking your brain on those, you can sweat part of the silver out of them but it is dangerous so have some good ventilation when you do it and don't breath the fumes. The last picture looks like a lot of copper in solution and I doubt any silver. Keep trying you will get there.


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## Oz (Feb 23, 2011)

There is no good reason to melt electrical contacts and plenty of hazards in doing so such as cadmium. They should be digested and cemented on copper.


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## Lonnie (Feb 23, 2011)

BR 

I'll get them done someday still in no big hurry this has been my big experiment the last week or so . The process worked but I do have a few bugs to work out of it so I'll probably do another 2 gram test real soon . If my ideas solves the problem and I can prevent the MO from cementing along with the AG all those contact can wait another few months untill I'm ready proper to be doing it . 

Yea I agree I need my fume hood in place before tackling the job of those contacts . That will come sometime this summer once it warms up outside and I can get me a work place remodled . I'm fixing to convert an old school bus into a place I can do that in if it would ever warm up nice outside . I'm not to keen on the idea of trying to hold my breath or run LOL . I have everything to do it right . Fume hoods , slate slabs and sinks , lab shower kit with the pull down handle and fixtures , eye wash stations . even the stainless/nickle plug in covers for the wall outlets . 

Gas valves for bunson burners , I have a lab I just need to put it together . I've been collecting it for years now a little at a time going to auctions and it's just about time to put it together . I'm in no big hurry anymore LOL plus I have the silver cell to build and a few more supplies to rake up and been milling over the idea of a PVC scrubber of somekind . 

Well they might be some copper amung other contaminates in that jar that was a mastake back in my hurry and do it now days . Still not sure just what I did wrong but I have it dropping what I want it to drop now anyhow . 8) No they shouldn't be any silver in those 2 jars . Probably every other contaminate but no solver .


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## Lonnie (Feb 23, 2011)

Oz 

No cadmium in these contacts . 52%Ag , 45% W and 3% Mo . And what you said is my plans exactly as to how I'll do it .


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 23, 2011)

Lonnie said:


> BR
> 
> I'll get them done someday still in no big hurry this has been my big experiment the last week or so . The process worked but I do have a few bugs to work out of it so I'll probably do another 2 gram test real soon . If my ideas solves the problem and I can prevent the MO from cementing along with the AG all those contact can wait another few months untill I'm ready proper to be doing it .
> 
> ...




Patience and time, patience and time. 8)


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## Drewbie (Feb 23, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Patience and time, patience and time. 8)



And the beauty of it is the longer you take to make sure you do things right, the more the resultant gold and silver will be worth.


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## Sodbuster (Feb 23, 2011)

Lonnie:
Love that old school bus lab idea. Lots of windows for cross ventilation and lighting.

Ray


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## Harold_V (Feb 24, 2011)

Lonnie said:


> I sure wish all of these silver contacts would melt as easy as the coin grade contacts . The ones alloyed with tungston are impossable for me to melt .


I'm at a loss to understand why you'd want to melt them. All that does is create problems that are not necessary.

If you don't know, the melting point of tungsten is 6,192° F-----hotter than virtually any melting vessel you can procure can withstand. 

I processed tungsten contacts for years with no issues. Silver can be dissolved by leaving the contact intact---it just takes time and heating. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 24, 2011)

I totally agree with Harold. Trying to melt the tungsten is a fool's errand. The tungsten and the other metals in the points are in the form of compacted powders and are not alloyed together. Therefore, it's melting point of the W will essentially be 6200F. Tungsten has the highest melting point of any non-alloyed metallic element. Even if you could use something (arc?) to sort of melt them, I know of no crucible or mold material that will stand up to that heat. Be smart and do them chemically. Listen to Harold.


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## Lonnie (Feb 24, 2011)

goldsilverpro and Harold 

Thats my plan to dissolve them in nitirc and cement out with copper . I wasn't aware of the melting point of the things but figured out real fast that I couldn't melt them . I'm just trying to learn a process and get it down now and will wait untill I can get a fume hood set up before trying to do this . 

I took some shavings and placed them in my home made nitric and got the small melt you see . Some of the stuff that cemented out was dark while some of it was nice shinny and would just make you think silver . 

I thought the dark stuff was maybe Mo that was cementing along with the silver . But I kept them seperated and when I melted the material they was no real difference in the melt . 

What was cemented right to the bar of copper was a darker color . What kinda hung off the bottom of the bar was a very nice silver looking material . Any idea why the difference in color ?? 

I've ordered some urea and will try another small test sample very soon . I just diluted this first one with water and am wondering if the acidic solution maybe had some reaction with the copper bar that made that material much darker . I'd sure like to get it all cementing out a nice silver looking color rather than the way this first batch turned out .


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## Harold_V (Feb 27, 2011)

Lonnie said:


> I've ordered some urea and will try another small test sample very soon .



What, no chicken lips? 

Urea?

What the hell for? Didn't you just say you're trying to process silver?

Maybe there's something I don't understand, but a test sample isn't necessary. Why are you trying to make something that's dead simple so complicated?

Harold


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## Lonnie (Feb 27, 2011)

Harold 

LOL I see it's my turn to be bashed around LOL thats ok I'm a tough old bird so bash away . Now please dont accuse me of being a smart a$$ or hasty with my reply I'm not . I'm just tryin my best to give you the answer you asked for and to ask a few things myself . 

Well I try small test trying to figure out just what I'm doing here . I figure if I screw up I'll not loose much and I might just learn something doing them . btw things that are simple for some are far from simple for others if you haven't done them before . 

""What, no chicken lips? "" naw we toss them in the gravy . I did think about starting a wizz pile test and try mu luck just making urea . With no wood ash to wizz in I figured it wouldn't be much good so canned that idea :shock: 


""Didn't you just say you're trying to process silver?""
Yes I certainly did but it will not stop there I plan to refine a little of everything before I'm finished .

""Maybe there's something I don't understand, but a test sample isn't necessary."" evidently , you dont need a test but I choose to try figuring things out with one I hope thats ok that I do it that way . 

""Why are you trying to make something that's dead simple so complicated?"" Well I guess so I can irritate you into slamming my rear end . When I joined last week thats why I joined I figured that since I just loved being slammed I'd give you a free shot at the new guy . 

Let me ask you something Harold . Why does it bug you that I prefer to use a test tube and learn by small test / experiments ? I realise they probably crude and not properly preformed but that really shouldn't bother anyone . Why do you have to slam people for trying something they a little unsure of in small test amounts ? Should I just toss in 15 or 20 of my silver eagles to learn on ? Why do you have to post in open forum trying to make someone feel an inch high ?? 

Now maybe I took your post wrong but it seems a little belittling to me . That really puzzles me too because I've never said or done anything to you . I try to greet everyone with respect and see no need to slam anyone just because they may be a bit unsure of theirself or does things a little differently than others . I certainly wouldn't slam them just because they joined a site trying to learn something . 

And I hope you dont get mad ( I'm not ) and tell me your gonna kick me out of here because I haven't done or said anything to deserve that . 

Lonnie


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## metatp (Feb 27, 2011)

Lonnie,

I had some of the same questions Harold asked. From your post, I would have assumed that you would have read related posts on this forum. Because of that, your posts did not make sense. I think that if you searched the forum, you would not have made the posts you wrote. Remember, there are many people on this forum, and they will read your posts as if you knew what you were talking about. That could lead them down the wrong path. I am very grateful of people like Harold that will take the time to read and question these posts. If you read any of Harold's post, you would know that he stress testing, but I have no idea what or how you plan to your test. Your post is not clear. A lot of your questions may be answered by searching "silver" "contacts" and "tungsten".

Regards,
Tom


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## stihl88 (Feb 27, 2011)

Same here Lonnie, you lost me at "melting Tungsten" and "Urea" for silver nitrate solution.
Perhaps you should consider putting down the test tube until you have read up on the correct refining methods.

BTW, your reply to Harold made no sense what so ever and i expect you to be rotated over the coals for that ridiculous reply.


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## Lonnie (Feb 27, 2011)

LOL well I'll be the first to say that I do not have a clue as to what I'm talking about and thought that should be easy to see by the questions I ask . And I have never claimed to know what I'm doing . I mean lets face it people that know what they doing don't ask stupid questions . And as far as someone taking my advise LOL I doubt that cause I'd be the first to tell them they asking the wrong person . 

And I don't mind constructive crittisium at all infact I welcome it . But come on now they is a difference in constructive crittisium and just talking down to someone . Steve gives great constructive crittisium he will tell you where your wrong and why , then point you in the right direction while talking to you in a tone thats not degrading . Hey thats ok though I'm a fast learner and already picked up on who not to ask LOL .

And I think I've picked up on more than I might be able to reflect . LOL time will tell :wink: Anyhow no biggy I'm over it and never was mad just kinda floored by the tone of things is all . If i bug him that much perhaps avoiding me is best . I'll try to avoid him or conflict in general I'm not here for that .


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## Lonnie (Feb 27, 2011)

stihl88 

I take it that you didn't read all the post then . The melting W concerned one of the eliments thats mixed in with the Ag forming the alloy . It was a direct reply to their explaining the melting point of the eliment and how hard it is to manipulate . 

Maybe I'm wrong but I understood urea to be used to drive off any remaining nitric once the reactions complete . I really don't think I'll need much of that though :wink: 

Well maybe maybe not I guess the proof will be in the pudding so we will have to wait and see


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## qst42know (Feb 27, 2011)

> Maybe I'm wrong but I understood urea to be used to drive off any remaining nitric once the reactions complete . I really don't think I'll need much of that though



Completely useless for silver you don't need any, some use it when refining gold but unnecessary if intelligent techniques are used.

It's all here if you just spend some time reading, if you run into something you need clarified just ask.

You'll learn plenty if you show our moderators respect and won't last long at all if you don't.

It's not "new guy bashing" as you might find elsewhere, it's bad ideas that get bashed here.


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## metatp (Feb 27, 2011)

Lonnie said:


> If i bug him that much perhaps avoiding me is best . I'll try to avoid him or conflict in general I'm not here for that .


You would do well to to follow Harold's advise. I would not avoid him if you have some real questions about refining silver contacts. Again, do a search for silver contacts with tungsten composite (not alloy) and you will learn a lot, and most if from Harold. Hope you take the advise so you can get the most out of this forum. Maybe if you try to take it a little more seriously with a few less "LOLs". Just my two cents. BTW, welcome to the forum.

Tom


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## rasanders22 (Feb 27, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> I totally agree with Harold. Trying to melt the tungsten is a fool's errand. The tungsten and the other metals in the points are in the form of compacted powders and are not alloyed together. Therefore, it's melting point of the W will essentially be 6200F. Tungsten has the highest melting point of any non-alloyed metallic element. Even if you could use something (arc?) to sort of melt them, I know of no crucible or mold material that will stand up to that heat. Be smart and do them chemically. Listen to Harold.




Wouldnt a crucible made of graphite work? It has the highest melting point of any element. It would be weak but it doesnt melt until ~7200-8000 degrees F. Not that 99% of us here could reach tempuratures that high. 

As far as seperating W and Ag, couldnt a vacuum deposition work? Put the metals in a vacuum chamber then heat the base. The metals will sublimate and depending on their melting points, deposite on the walls of your vacuum chamber.


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## stihl88 (Feb 27, 2011)

Lonnie said:


> stihl88
> 
> I take it that you didn't read all the post then . The melting W concerned one of the eliments thats mixed in with the Ag forming the alloy . It was a direct reply to their explaining the melting point of the eliment and how hard it is to manipulate .
> 
> ...



Lonnie, i don't want to get into a tit for tat argument here nor does anyone else for that matter but the part where you say *"The ones alloyed with tungston are impossable for me to melt . With a better torch you might melt them but with my propane set up I can't touch them"* leads me to believe that you were hoping to melt the Tungsten for some reason... Even if you could melt it , what's the point? It's not as if you can De-Alloy it :mrgreen: 

Anyway, the whole idea with dissolving Silver with Nitric Acid is to use the exact amount of Nitric to dissolve the silver you have, just take a look at my signature line for the correct formula. Ive never messed around with Tungsten and Silver contacts as with likely most of us here so i can't give you any advice on the subject, by the sounds of it Harold is your man.


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## qst42know (Feb 28, 2011)

Do you guy's think your the first to encounter these contacts?

They are not a true alloy of tungsten and silver. The silver is merely trapped in a sintered tungsten sponge.

Swallow your pride and search the forum, find how the Pro's *have* handled these.


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## Lonnie (Mar 2, 2011)

You guys are right !! Your all right . I read the post again today after a good break and I dont get offended . In fact I scratch my head wondering why I got so bent out of shape . I know why but not going there other than to say watching your father die isn't very fun it sucks . Thats one reason for the renewed interest in this . Just trying to get lost in something else so I can excape the reality taking place here . It's just dawned on me that I'm not doing a very good job of excaping the situation I'm trying to get off my mind .

No excuses though if you knew me you would know thats not my style truth is I was wrong . Harold I'm sorry for that , very sorry .

I do take this very seriously though (I guess I laugh alot when I'm hurting ) thats all I can figure laughing seems to beat crying . And just because it's only reciently been renewed it's never been off my mind . I have to much crap that needs made liquid to ever forget metal . Heck thats about all I've ever done is metal one way or another . 

I am going to post less not because of this but simply because to much of what I'm trying to convey gets lost between my english and this pc . For the record I learned 3 years ago I couldn't melt tungston and believe me I certainly tried . And no I never realised the contacts wasn't an alloy I assumed it was untill Steve pointed that out reciently . 

Finally got my nitric 68 to 70 % whats on the bottle 42.50 a gallon from that place in NV . I pick up my better hoods this Thursday , still gonna be awhile before I can get one in place though . So as bad as I want to do something with these contacts it's gonna be 30 days at the best before I can be ready . That gives me plenty of time for more reading . 

Sheshhh Hokes book the cheapest I can find is 175.00 for the book . That beats ebay's $300.00 for it though but I haven't gave up on getting a copy downloaded somehow . It just freezes this crummy pc up I can't get past the first page of it when I try . Then I get errors on this thing and it closes everything down . But thats what I need something in words I can understand and I will get it one way or another it will just take awhile . 

About the testing I've been doing I dont really see that I have much choise . These metals react differently once ground up or even milled into a powder . ( they are reasons I can't just melt some of it it ) I wouldn't want to mix much of this powdered stuff in a weak nitric acid let alone a good quality product . The powder I tumbled off in a rock tumbler will just foam out of the container if you do . I thought a small dab in AP solution was working no foaming anyhow . Problem is the AP is taking the silver into solution also . I guess it's not to hard to digest if milled fine enough but placing a single coper wire into the test tube cements out both silver and copper . But I'll will get it if the powdered mix is 50/50 theys 6 troy ounce and I want it . 

The test are working good for the silver I ground off with a grinder . Yea I know I shouldn't have ground it off or tumbled it off but it's not always that easy . I needed to sell the coper and would have been docked had I left it on it . Something about getting docked down to a lower grade because my copper is contaminated with silver just doesn't set well with me . Anyhow I seem to have found a process thats working fine on that it just takes time . 

Well it's getting late and tomorrows going to be a long day . 

Lonnie


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 2, 2011)

Hoke book - $54.75. I think this is the lowest price out there.

http://www.gesswein.com/p-3263-refining-precious-metal-wastes.aspx


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## Harold_V (Mar 3, 2011)

Lonnie,

Sorry about your father. I watched mine die years ago, from cancer. You're right---it's not a pleasureable thing to witness. 

To process contacts, in particular, contacts that contain tungsten, remove them from the buss, using a torch. An oxy/acet torch works best because of its high temperature. Heat the contact directly until you see the solder turn molten. Rap the buss bar sharply on the edge of a coffee can, which will dislodge the contact, along with a goodly amount of the silver solder. You are well served to do this process in the mouth of a fume hood, to avoid breathing the resulting fumes. 

Allow the contacts to cool, then place them directly in a vessel (beaker) to which you add dilute nitric acid. Heat the acid to accelerate dissolution, which is slow and measured. This should be done in a fume hood. When the action subsides, raise the temperature of the solution to boiling---and keep the vessel covered (use a watch glass, which returns condensed solutions to the vessel). When you have consumed all of the available nitric, there will be no more brown fumes liberated. Dilute the solution with an equivalent amount of water (you can use tap water if you don't care if you create a little silver chloride---otherwise use distilled water) and pour it off to a second container, one in which you allow the solids to settle. You do not have need to filter this stuff---it settles rapidly. When it has settled well, siphon off the solution, filtering only the solids that remain at the end of the operation. This will save you a lot of time and simplify the process. 

Return the vessel to the hotplate and introduce more dilute nitric, and repeat the above. As you dissolve the silver from the powdered tungsten, dissolution is slowed because of the large amount of tungsten present, but all of the silver can be removed if you allow time. You can gauge the amount of silver remaining by trying to break a contact. If all of the silver has been removed, they break easily, under thumb pressure. If they offer resistance, it's because there is still silver bonding the powdered tungsten. When you break a contact, there will be a distinct line where silver remains, in the center of the contact. How large it is will determine how much silver remains. If you see no line, and the contacts break easily, you have effectively removed the preponderance of the silver. 

Do not use urea. Use the acid until it is exhausted. If the last iteration leaves you with unused nitric, and you have no other silver to digest, simply process as you normally would. If the nitric content is too high, some copper will be dissolved that otherwise wouldn't, but that's no big deal. Just use nitric sparingly as you near the end of the dissolution process. That solves the problem. 

The buss from which contacts come is often pure copper. You can use it to cement the recovered silver, and, in the bargain, end up with the traces of silver solder that wasn't recovered when you removed the contacts. The traces of contamination (copper in the silver solder) will be removed when you part the cemented silver in a silver cell. 

rasanders22-----any notion of evaporating tungsten, in particular by using graphite---_*is insane*_. There is no need to complicate the processing of silver contacts. They are amongst the easiest of all things to process----you simply use good judgment and follow procedures that are known to work. 

I am all for experimentation, but not by beginners. Only a fool thinks he can create processes that are superior to those that have been proven through years of practice. When you have learned the art of refining, you may even come up with something innovative-----but it is my advice that you learn to walk before you run. Right now you're still crawling. Be a little humble and learn from those of us that have gone before you. 

Harold


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## Lonnie (Mar 7, 2011)

Steve 

Thanks !! I just bought that $66.34 with shipping and it's now mine I sure hope they ship fast . 

Harold 

Thanks for the detailed information concerning the contacts . I've had them off for over 3 years now but ended up doing it just about like you mentioned . 

After watching Steves DVD on the silver cell I couldn't wait on getting the hood installed and cooked one batch twice now . The first cooking I did real good I think and got 60% of what they suppost to have in them . The second cooking the contacts only lost 1.4 grams weight and my nitric is still active . 

Having to do things with what I have I'm thinking I'm not getting them hot enough . I set up a water bath in a crock pot and placed 316.4 grams of the contacts in a qt canning jar . Just covered them with 100ml water and added 100 ml of nitric . 

I slow cooked them for about 4 hours on high and turned the cooker off . When it cooled the solution froze into a clear crystal looking structure . I mixed in enough water to melt the crystals basically doing like you suggest canting the liquid off it was blue then . 

I checked just a drop and the nitric was used up so I doubled the water and placed a big chunk of copper in the stuff . I have about an inch of the nices looking ( almost crystal ) looking cement . The contacts lost 93 grams weight with the first cooking but I haven't dried or weighed the cemented silver .

I repeated this again with the same contacts and nothing but my sloution was slightly yellow and it did pull some of the yellow crap out of them . Acording to what the one guy tested them to be I'm about 40% short of getting it all . I'm guessing my make shift crock pot method isn't getting hot enough . 

I just tried your snap test and some break easy and 3 of them I can't break at all I only used 9 of them . In the ones that broke I don't really see any line you mention but most were kinda hard to break with 2 being much easier to break.

I'm guessing the 3 that I can't break were on top and did not get as hot as the ones on bottom . I'm thinking I need to be getting much hotter than what this crock pot gets . 

Thanks again for the information with that info it kinda gives me a idea how to proceed with these . I'm thinking a good first cooking with new contacts getting the easy stuff . Then save the second cooking for when I can get things much hotter than this set up is doing . 

Lonnie


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