# No precipitation



## ori (May 16, 2013)

Hello to the forum members,
That my first post and I experience disappointment at beginning.
I start the process 60 hours ago following Gold recovery process from Ceramic CPU's - Part 1&2 (which filmed in my country) as described in the photos and no precipitation.  
I believed that this question asked in the past but I will be hard to find on 55 pages of this thread.
The follows can be the cause to match sulfuric acid, Nitric acid?
Sodium Meta bi sulfite added at the beginning 3 flat teaspoon for the 400 grams cpu's, the following day four more.

My knowledge in Chemistry is very basic minus,
Help needed to cross the bridge and get rid from the solution.
Thanks,Ori


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## ori (May 16, 2013)

#1.2


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## ori (May 16, 2013)

#1.3


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## squarecoinman (May 16, 2013)

ori said:


> Hello to the forum members,
> That my first post and I experience disappointment at beginning.
> I start the process 60 hours ago following Gold recovery process from Ceramic CPU's - Part 1&2 (which filmed in my country) as described in the photos and no precipitation.
> I believed that this question asked in the past but I will be hard to find on 55 pages of this thread.
> ...




HI Ori , you need to give more information , Please answer my questions 
what Acid did you use to make AR , 
how much of each acid did you use 
and how strong are the acids 

Did you let any of the liquid evaporate ?

what Film do you mean please give link 


squarecoinman


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## rusty (May 16, 2013)

While your reading Hokes - Refining Precious Metals Wastes. I suggest you cement everything down with a copper buss bar. Butcher suggests a heavy copper buss bar from an electrical service or a piece of copper pipe hammered flat.

Once you have read Hoke's book a free download from this forum,you'll be able to start your project over with a better understanding of what your doing and what to expect.


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## ori (May 16, 2013)

Squarecoinman thanks,
The videos from: http://www.goldnscrap.com
70% Hcl 32% + 30% Nitric acid 72% (300ml + 120ml).
Then added more 120ml Nitric acid probably the first mistake.
The second mistake could be add too much sulfuric acid 96% in probably 50ml


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## ori (May 16, 2013)

Gfr
I can read Hebrew try it on the coca cola bottle on the video.
Now is night time here I will try tomorrow I download the pdf book and try to sleep on it.
But still waiting to shortcut from you, 
Thanks,Ori


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## squarecoinman (May 16, 2013)

ori said:


> Squarecoinman thanks,
> The videos from: http://www.goldnscrap.com
> 70% Hcl 32% + 30% Nitric acid 72% (300ml + 120ml).
> Then added more 120ml Nitric acid probably the first mistake.
> The second mistake could be add too much sulfuric acid 96% in probably 50ml




Hi Ori the Hoke book is in my signature line , download it read it and take your time 

You have way to much nitric in your solution and you should let that Evaporate , ( read Hoke ) 
I have no idea why you put in the sulfuric acid , But it does tell me that you do not have very much experience
So here is what you do , 
1 keep the liquid you have ( there is gold in it ) store it safe 
2 read Hoke and take the guided tour on the forum 
3 Find a post by lazersteve he has all the links you need in his signature line 

then when you have read and understood hoke , you can easy solve your problem 
last but not least the acids you work with are dangerous , please also read and follow the advice in the safety section 

scm


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## ori (May 16, 2013)

Squarecoinman
I quote from the article" Stir the solution and ice cubes well with a glass stirring rod and slowly add 10-15 ml of concentrated Sulfuric acid. Do remember, concentrated Sulfuric acid reacts very vigorously upon contact with water, so any addition should be done slowly and by the drop."
It's probably unlike to make pancake :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Thanks


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## butcher (May 16, 2013)

ori,

Sam the man who made the video is a member of the forum, Sam knows what he is talking about, I am not sure of the video you used, but I am sure there are no problems with it, but if we try things from watching a video we can have trouble, because we may not know the reason for certain things, and like you did, we may think a little more of something like nitric acid would not hurt, if a little does good maybe more will do better, this is not true, more is bad, and we may not see anything happen, and get impatient and add more, or we can miss some small step, or not do it not thinking it is necessary, basically it is hard to have success following instructions without having an good understanding of how and why things are done in certain ways.

My guess is just like others here who have been trying to help you, is you used too much nitric acid, and the gold cannot change back to a brown gold metal powder, you have a couple of choices of how you can recover your gold from solution.

The guys have already told you how, either cement the gold out of solution with copper, or do the evaporation process taught in Hokes book, (a little added gold to the evaporation process can help use up free HNO3).

Since you already added SMB (and probably too much), I think I would go with using copper to cement out the gold.

The reason for adding a few drops of sulfuric acid can be for two reasons, to get lead to precipitate out of solution as lead sulfate, and also a few drops of sulfuric will keep gold from forming crystals in the evaporation process so easy, if you make a mistake and evaporated it too far.

In Hokes, and on the forum you will learn to use stannous chloride to tell if gold is in solution (but the test will not work if free nitric acid is in solution, this test is your eyes to see the dissolved gold with, it is very sensitive for gold, and works very well when used properly, without this test you are blind, and just guessing where gold is, gold is too hard to get, and too much money to guess about...

In the safety section read dealing with waste, this will show you how to treat your toxic waste so that it will not get into peoples drinking water and poison them.

Hokes book will teach you all of the general principles, and you will learn techniques and processes on the forum, and how to process most electronic scrap from start to a melted gold button.

There are many small details you will learn, these little details are important, and can be the difference between a mess or success, small details like adding only the amount of nitric needed.

So if you really want to learn I suggest a lot of study before trying the chemistry part, this way you learn how and why and can get gold without loosing it in a big mess, although this is chemistry, and we often talk chemistry, you can learn it without understanding chemistry, but when you learn it you will be doing the chemistry, so learning how to talk with chemical formulas is helpful but not necessary.

Hope this helps welcome to the gold refining forum.


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

Butcher thanks for yours detailed article.
Its morning time and I was pressed last night, jump to the forum without the normal polite word to new member.
Before I went to the process I read some information on the internet also try to connect Sam when I notice on YouTube the Hebrew. Now I realise to read C. M. HOKE.
The reason for the more nitrate was that the solution become black and I couldn't see the processors melting so to be sure add (beginner). :mrgreen:  
The reason that I didn’t get precipitate lead, Silver Chloride the too much Sulfuric acid as you say.
But last night I add a powder of remaining from the memory fingers experiment I did few month ago and 8cm of 1/2" air condition pipe flatted on anvil hope it will do . :? 
For the stannous chloride I know and will try to get it. 
Again and again Thanks a lot,Ori


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## Alentia (May 17, 2013)

Ori,

What I see from pictures and reading your posts:

1. You do have too much nitric as everyone else has noted. Maybe way too much for the amount CPUs you had.
2. You solution is not diluted with water 4:1
3. You did not let solution to settle, still have crap floating on top

240ml HNO3 enough to process about 240gr of pure gold, while the CPU bunch on the picture should produce about 100 times less.

Best solution out this situation is to move everything into 20L bucket.

1. Dilute your 1L solution with 4L of water and let it settle for at least 24-48 hours in cool place
2. Fill HDPE (plastic) bucket with 10L of water
3. Decant 5 liter solution into bucket, leaving any sediment behind
4. Put about 100 gram copper pipe inside the bucket for at least 48-72 hours and leave it outside, little brown fumes will be produced
5. Stir water with another piece of copper occasionally, 2-3 times a day
6. When there are no bubble appear (as per #4 after) and you can see solution is clear, slowly decant to another bucket filled with about 300 gram of iron
7. Spray the pipe from inside or outside, black sediment at the bottom of the bucket and sprayed from pipe is your about 2gr of gold
8. Wash sediment
9. Make AR from 5ml water, 10ml HCl and 2-3ml HNO3 (that is how much HNO3 you originally needed)
10. After sediment dissolves add about 200ml of water and then 3gr of SMB wait for 5min to 1 hours for the reaction
11. Let gold settle for 24 hours and proceed to cleaning

12. Return back to #6 you have bucket with iron
13. Let it sit for 3-5 days
14. Decant solution to another empty bucket (you will have copper sediment at the bottom)
15. Start adding NaOH 10-20 grams at a time, avoid foaming, until your pH is around 10
16. Discard the solution (salt water), iron will be sediment at the bottom of the bucket

If you do not follow through steps 12-16 you will may cause severe health issue to yourself, your kids and life around you.


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

Alentia' thanks for your details article.
But please forgive me I read it carefully and I will not go into all of it.
Here where I stand at 1:00pm I add the powder containing copper I believe and gold chips from RAM fingers recovery this is what you see floating and a copper bar as i say.
The solution become alive and sediment began of what I don’t know, now its 11:00 pm
The solution bubbling on the surface like Champagne with barely notice gas smells.
Any advice from now will be helpful, thanks to all Ori


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

Under the sun outside temp 30c solution more but calm time 15:00 looks like sea algae around what that’s mean? :?: 
No Prophet in his city looking for sam 0508980044 
Thanks


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

Confession: I may childhood I use to throw stones at the railway station on bromine bottles in wooden boxes that left away and watch the orange cloud.
But now I know and I going to find it out because it was attempt in the company to recover gold :bromine is better then chlorine and I wonder if this issue appear here in the forum :?: 
Solution loses 100ml by evaporating today and stand for 600ml continuing tomorrow to evaporate until farther instruction by any.
regards Ori


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## butcher (May 17, 2013)

when you threw stones at those bromine bottles you could have made people sick who lived in that area breathing the air, and drinking the well water.

You seem to be doing both cementing with copper and evaporation, you do not do both, use only one or the other.

Those who throw stones are usually the ones who will be hurt most by the stone.


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

As I say its confession it was on the sixties and as a small child around 10 years old and didn’t realize what I doing.
But please instruct me where to go from here What you meant "cementing" sound like concrete mafia deal ? ( I like your sense)
Ori


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

O.K I did filtering the copper bar goes to Hollywood here is substance what it is? that my gold?


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

#1.11


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## ori (May 17, 2013)

butcher although you didn’t respond at the end please be know that I very appreciate your effort ,skill and patience for a green one
Ori


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## butcher (May 17, 2013)

copper metal put into your solution, is what we call cementing out values.

What happens when we do this?

The acid solution may contain our gold, it may also have other base metals dissolved in solution with our gold, and may have excess nitric acid, these metals are dissolved in the acid as ions or dissolved salts of metals, the atoms of these metals are missing electrons, by us putting the copper metal into this solution we provide electrons for the metals in solution, which are less reactive than the metal copper, (study reactivity series of metals on Google for a better understanding of this very important process), the copper will give up electrons and become ions dissolved into the acid, the more noble metals will gain the electron copper gives up, and these more valuable metals will change back into an full atom of metals as a powder we call cement (this name comes from when we do this with silver and silver powder looks gray like cement), our powder here will probably look black from the dirty gold, so the copper is oxidized (lose of electron) and dissolves into solution, the gold is reduced (gain of electron) and becomes an elemental powder of gold metal, the copper will also use up any free acid in solution as it is dissolved into solution, after excess acid is used up and all of the gold or more noble metal is reduced, the copper will not dissolve more or give up more electrons, this may take time depending on conditions.

After all of the gold is reduced we brush off the black powdered gold (into the solution) from the remaining copper bar, put the copper bar back into solution for a period of time to see if more gold comes out of solution making more black powder onto the copper bar, if it does not and the copper bar stays a clean copper color we can brush off the copper one more time into the solution rinse the copper off dry and store it in a plastic bag for later use, the solution we let settle well, to let all of the fine black gold powder settle, then we can remove liquid without moving the gold powder, the liquid tested with stannous chloride to prove no gold left in solution is then treated for waste.

Iron is added to the waste solution to cement out the copper, this iron solution is removed from the copper powders which formed, to the decanted iron chloride solution we add sodium hydroxide to raise the pH to 9.5 let the iron hydroxide settle, decant the solution and lower pH to 7 with small acid additions, at this point we have a clear salt water we can dispose of safely, we also have the metal powders which need to be dried before disposing of, these hydroxide powders if heated or incinerated will form the safer less soluble metal oxides, so we can the dispose of the oxide powder, with less harm of poisoning someone.

Now back to your gold powders, they will be dirty, and need to be cleaned before we can recover and then refine the gold from the powders.

My suggestion for you at this point is to dry these powders and save them, so you do not loose your gold, I could spend a lot of time trying to tell you what to do now, but you will still have troubles, because you have not studied enough yet to understand, this would only cause you and me both more troubles, dry your powders and spend time doing your study, the gold will still be there and you will learn how to recover and refine gold, without study all you will do is make mess after mess, and keep losing your gold, with study you will learn how it all works, so that you can recover and refine gold, and be able to answer your own questions.


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## JHS (May 17, 2013)

Hello Butcher,
After my first attempt at the ar process failed,I stopped.I read,studied,watched the vidioes both here and on the net.
I beleive I have a much better understanding of the processes.I am not ready to proceed.
I did some research into several reasons my gold did not drop.I found out that
my water is treated with chlorine and ammonia(as per the water co-op)
could this be a factor in the reaction? 2 g smb-8 oz tap water.the chlorine, ammonia percent is unknown.
I am not ready to proceed yet,but would like to gather addational info.
thanks john


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## butcher (May 17, 2013)

John,
Dissolving gold in aqua regia is fairly easy, the trouble comes when we try to get the gold back out of solution, is where it can be a bit tricky.

Free nitric acid is one problem, we have several ways to overcome this, using the bare amount of nitric needed, we can also leave a little gold undissolved, running the reaction with heat to be sure to consume the free nitric acid, or using a gold button and heat to use up nitric acid, we also have the evaporation process we learn in Hokes, and then there is sulfamic acid, personally I will use a combination of these methods to insure I have eliminated nitric from solution.

A major problem besides nitric, is when we are new we think we can dissolve all kinds of metals in aqua regia, and get our gold, here if all of the gold hasn't already plated back out of solution onto remaining base metals, we have a solution filled with other metals, if there is too much of these other metals, it becomes very difficult to precipitate the gold from solution, with just a little tiny bit of base metals we can, but if solution is loaded with base metals, we might as well use copper to cement the gold out and start over.
The goal is to remove all of the other metals and only dissolve the gold as pure as we can.

Dirt, oils, organics, glue... trash, even oil from our hands on glassware, can give problems, most scrap is just dirty and needs pretreatments to clean it up, like incineration to burn off oils and grime. the dirty solutions mixed with base metals only complicates the process of trying to precipitate our gold.

Tin is a very big problem when we work with electronic scrap, if you do not deal with tin before you dissolve your gold, the you are allowing tin to steal your gold.

As far as your water I never heard of both chlorine and ammonia being used together to treat water, as this would make ammonium chloride, I would think they may treat it with one or the other at different times maybe, these are gases that you may be able to lower there content in your water by letting it sit for long periods, or boiling it, (unless they actually treat it with both and form ammonium chloride salts in solution), I would think the gas in the water would be of such a low content that it wouldn't cause to much trouble, I use well water, but if you feel it could be a part of your problems then distilled water is very cheap compared to the price of gold.

John it is good you are spending the time to study, as this is really the only way to learn it, I have been studying it since I joined the forum, and I am still learning more all of the time.


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## ori (May 18, 2013)

Hello butcher, you cut me to slices,
What 'submerge', amazing, wow………….
You spend so much to me; there is a prophet at North West.
I read it all from up to down and reversed, really fantastic explanation and take all your recommendations.
First back to drawing table and study for more, the curiosity that kill the cat that what it was I felt the need to try the toxic fumes (probably some complex from my childhood).
So submerging again anther copper to see may be I will get some cement I need it because I make restoration in my house.
For neutralize the solution tomorrow (normal working day for us sorry) try to get stannous chloride and lackmus paper.
Excuse me for my ignorance I didn’t made my homework yet for this lesson, what will be the consequences if I will use Sodium bicarbonate instead of Sodium hydroxide to raise the PH? 
Grab my hat, sincerely Ori


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## ori (May 18, 2013)

Hello to the forum members, who watch this post,
I have to apologized to you user Alentia and to the other users who view it, I didn’t take
Your instruction and ignore them, the reason lack of understanding sorry.
butcher explanation help me to understand the process you aimed.
To users squarecoinman and rusty thanks for your care about others troubles.
Start with the neutralizing process. 
Ori


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## butcher (May 18, 2013)

ori,
With study you will be going in the right direction.
Take your time, read Hokes, a good place to begin your study of the forum is with the guided tour in general chat.
Do not do this in your Home only in fresh air or with a fume hood, anything around these fumes will rust, and they are toxic to breath.

Sodium hydroxide is a strong base and will neutralize the acid, it must be added slowly and carefully, sodium bicarbonate is not as strong and will work but it will foam up with small additions of powder and is hard to keep in the bucket, and you must add it very slow, let bubbles CO2 gas settle stir well, so you do not foam out metals, it will also take more powder to make solution neutral.


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## benign01 (Dec 14, 2013)

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I have a question. Is it correct to say that if the"driving off excess nitric acid" step was fumbled for whatever reason, the addition of more copper than actually required into the AR at the cementing stage would solve the issue?

....and if it does not what should I do?


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## butcher (Dec 14, 2013)

With excess nitric acid the solution will consume more copper metal, the excess nitric acid will keep metals oxidized until the excess nitric is used, but if the copper bar is left in solution eventually the nitric is used up in the reaction with copper, and any metal below copper in reactivity will cement out of solution.


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## benign01 (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks Butcher.


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