# Processing SilverPlate With H2O Cell



## modtheworld44

Hi to All,

Ok where to begin! I guess with the specs of my cell,so here they are.

POWER SUPPLY(Front Panel)
Radio Shack
Regulated 12 volt Power supply
Converts 120 VAC to 12 VDC
1 on/off power switch

POWER SUPPLY(Back Panel)
120 VAC
60 HZ
60 WATTS MAX

OUTPUT 13.8 VDC- 2.5A
3 AMP reset switch

2 wires & 2 clamps
1 gallon pickle jar

ANODE and CATHODE (any SILVERPLATE WARE you choose)
ELECTROLYTE(good old H2O)

Ok now to the process .

1.Fill jar about 3-5 inches from the top so you have plenty of room for rinseing periodically .
2.Clamp Anode and Cathode to jar (Leave Anode+ half out of water helps deplate better).Do not let your clamps touch the water.
3.Make sure that Anode and Cathode are across from one another ,not side by side.
4.Turn power supply on,after about 1 1/2 minutes you should start seeing the silver coming off in a cloudy stream.
5.After it runs for a hour or two the cell will start to get real cloudy and by this time you,ll start to see growth on the anode (don,t panic) just power the cell off .
6.Use spray bottle and tooth brush to clean Anode (Make sure to do this back into the cell).Do not clean Cathode.
7.Flip Anode around so deplated end is sticking out of water and reclamp, and turn power back on.
8.When second half is done , turn power off ,unclamp Anode and use it to stir the cell for about a minute then clean second half of Anode then replace with new Anode.Continue steps 2-8 Until step 9 comes into play.
9.When water is almost to the top near clamp, power down remove and clean current Anode,remove and spray only the Cathode(You want Cathode to stay tarnished black).
10.Now that cell is pregnant filter all liquid through 3 stacked coffee filters 1 time only.
11.Rinse black powder in filter with spray bottle, dry till it hardens then save for bigger melt.
12.Now refill cell with the same fluid you filtered and start again,except now you can leave Anode in for longer time period and let the growth grow longer before cleanings.

Heres my video


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## Pantherlikher

Interesting...
I love the dice sitting on the muffin tray...
Is this for the "crap shoot" when you get bored?. Hopefully this is the only guessing game.

My suggestion, same as I keep telling myself, is you put your solution station away from your mechanical station. This would prevent the inevitable slip of the srew driver and instead of into your hand...dam I hate that... and into a major mess.

BS.
Just rambling thoughts into words...


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## etack

Pantherlikher said:


> Interesting...
> 
> 
> My suggestion, same as I keep telling myself, is you put your solution station away from your mechanical station. This would prevent the inevitable slip of the srew driver and instead of into your hand...dam I hate that... and into a major mess.
> 
> BS.
> Just rambling thoughts into words...



This is very true!! Now I need to go out to my garage and move something. :lol: 


Will have to give this a try some time. I had some limited success using table salt and water for silver over Cu but it wouldn't work over white brass. I stopped cause I didn't have any more Ag plated copper. :lol: The silver would come foo at what appeared to be AgCl and float around the jar. The spoon came out completely Cu real bright I have it around here some where It was stamped silver plated. he white brass spoons just pitted and got chalky real bad. Its been over a year sence I did this but i think I used a 3.7V cellphone charger.

The pic doesn't show it but this is Cu plating over a softer metal.


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## goldsilverpro

> 1.Fill jar about 3-5 inches from the top so you have plenty of room for rinseing periodically .
> 2.Clamp Anode and Cathode to jar (Leave Anode+ half out of water helps deplate better).Do not let your clamps touch the water.
> 3.Make sure that Anode and Cathode are across from one another ,not side by side.
> 4.Turn power supply on,after about 1 1/2 minutes you should start seeing the silver coming off in a cloudy stream.
> 5.After it runs for a hour or two the cell will start to get real cloudy and by this time you,ll start to see growth on the anode (don,t panic) just power the cell off .
> 6.Use spray bottle and tooth brush to clean Anode (Make sure to do this back into the cell).Do not clean Cathode.
> 7.Flip Anode around so deplated end is sticking out of water and reclamp, and turn power back on.
> 8.When second half is done , turn power off ,unclamp Anode and use it to stir the cell for about a minute then clean second half of Anode then replace with new Anode.Continue steps 2-8 Until step 9 comes into play.
> 9.When water is almost to the top near clamp, power down remove and clean current Anode,remove and spray only the Cathode(You want Cathode to stay tarnished black).
> 10.Now that cell is pregnant filter all liquid through 3 stacked coffee filters 1 time only.
> 11.Rinse black powder in filter with spray bottle, dry till it hardens then save for bigger melt.
> 12.Now refill cell with the same fluid you filtered and start again,except now you can leave Anode in for longer time period and let the growth grow longer before cleanings.


modtheworld44,

This is quite interesting. Who would have thought you could strip silver with water? I once messed around with making colloidal silver using 2 pure silver wires, distilled water, and 3, 9v batteries. I guess that is similar. A few questions.
(1) I assume you used tap water with nothing else added. Is that true? Do you know the pH of the tap water?
(2) You're using 12V. Do you have any idea how much amperage is used? Does the amperage change when the silver is stripped?
(3) In your step 12, does the silver strip slower when you reuse the solution? When running multiple cycles using the same solution, do you reach a point where the silver stops stripping?
(4) Is the filtered solution black?
(5) Where did you get the idea that water would work for this?


----------



## modtheworld44

goldsilverpro said:


> 1.Fill jar about 3-5 inches from the top so you have plenty of room for rinseing periodically .
> 2.Clamp Anode and Cathode to jar (Leave Anode+ half out of water helps deplate better).Do not let your clamps touch the water.
> 3.Make sure that Anode and Cathode are across from one another ,not side by side.
> 4.Turn power supply on,after about 1 1/2 minutes you should start seeing the silver coming off in a cloudy stream.
> 5.After it runs for a hour or two the cell will start to get real cloudy and by this time you,ll start to see growth on the anode (don,t panic) just power the cell off .
> 6.Use spray bottle and tooth brush to clean Anode (Make sure to do this back into the cell).Do not clean Cathode.
> 7.Flip Anode around so deplated end is sticking out of water and reclamp, and turn power back on.
> 8.When second half is done , turn power off ,unclamp Anode and use it to stir the cell for about a minute then clean second half of Anode then replace with new Anode.Continue steps 2-8 Until step 9 comes into play.
> 9.When water is almost to the top near clamp, power down remove and clean current Anode,remove and spray only the Cathode(You want Cathode to stay tarnished black).
> 10.Now that cell is pregnant filter all liquid through 3 stacked coffee filters 1 time only.
> 11.Rinse black powder in filter with spray bottle, dry till it hardens then save for bigger melt.
> 12.Now refill cell with the same fluid you filtered and start again,except now you can leave Anode in for longer time period and let the growth grow longer before cleanings.
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44,
> 
> This is quite interesting. Who would have thought you could strip silver with water? I once messed around with making colloidal silver using 2 pure silver wires, distilled water, and 3, 9v batteries. I guess that is similar. A few questions.
> (1) I assume you used tap water with nothing else added. Is that true? Do you know the pH of the tap water?
> (2) You're using 12V. Do you have any idea how much amperage is used? Does the amperage change when the silver is stripped?
> (3) In your step 12, does the silver strip slower when you reuse the solution? When running multiple cycles using the same solution, do you reach a point where the silver stops stripping?
> (4) Is the filtered solution black?
> (5) Where did you get the idea that water would work for this?
Click to expand...


GSP

1.Yes that is true.Nothing else is added to the water not even salt.This was just my test phase so I haven't tested for PH yet.I have thought of that already just haven't had time or extra money yet to go purchase voltage meter or PH strips,but will as soon as I can.
2.I would assume that it does change some where in the process period but unable to test that right now.That is also something I've been thinking about.
3.I think this is what happens.When the silver is deplated it comes off in colloidal form and then when its done stripping or almost done it gets growed back as a silver chloride then when stirred against Cathode it gets its electrons back and drops as metal.Now don't quote me on that because I don't know that for sure but to me that's what it looks like is happening .
4.The solution its self is not black after you filter it but the powder is ,this is caused from the contact of the Cathode I believe.After I change my cell again I'm going to cover the Cathode to see if there's a change in the cell.
5.I got the idea from a post that was made in I think the Colloidal Silver thread.The person stated that if the Anode and Cathode were to far apart that it would cause the silver to come off in its ionic state instead of its colloidal state.So since we deal in ionic state I ran with it.

So far I've gotten 6.4 grams in 5 days but I haven't allowed my solution to fully unpregnate it self either.Also as I said in video it doesn't fully strip crevices and cups of the spoon.I have only run 11 spoons and forks so far,and four of those worth of silver are still in the cell.So technically out of 7 pieces I've recovered 6.4 grams.I hope this is enough information for you to get started,but if it aint let me know and I'll try to be more helpful.



modtheworld44


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## resabed01

Pure water (H2O) does not conduct electricity. It acts more like a insulator. That said, it's a poor insulator because it's such a good solvent. It's the impurities in water that allows it to conduct.
If you set up a cell with water and you're getting current flow that's a indicator that there are salts or minerals in the water.

At least that's what I've been taught.


----------



## modtheworld44

resabed01 said:


> Pure water (H2O) does not conduct electricity. It acts more like a insulator. That said, it's a poor insulator because it's such a good solvent. It's the impurities in water that allows it to conduct.
> If you set up a cell with water and you're getting current flow that's a indicator that there are salts or minerals in the water.
> 
> At least that's what I've been taught.



I'm sure theres something in the water that causes this process to work.I just don't know what it is,to many variables to try and figure out.I haven't tried this process with distilled water yet so in conclusion you're probably right ,but we'll know for sure when I do decide to try it with distilled water.
Thanks for showing some interest in my thread.



modtheworld44


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## goldsilverpro

resabed01 said:


> Pure water (H2O) does not conduct electricity. It acts more like a insulator. That said, it's a poor insulator because it's such a good solvent. It's the impurities in water that allows it to conduct.
> If you set up a cell with water and you're getting current flow that's a indicator that there are salts or minerals in the water.
> 
> At least that's what I've been taught.


Not necessarily true. When you make colloidal silver electrolytically (using 2 pure silver wires) for ingestion purposes, you want the purest water you can find. You want to end up with un-ionized colloidal silver metal clusters rather than ionic silver. Some commercially made colloidal silver and some internet methods use dissolved solids and the resulting silver is ionic. After researching this, I became nearly convinced that the blue skin problem is caused by the ingestion of ionic silver and not true colloidal silver. Using a milliammeter, I tested several brands of distilled water. I figured the greater the initial current flow, the less pure the water. Some were very impure and produced a high initial current. The best I found, by far, was Walgreen's more expensive variety (they sell 2), which ran about $1.75/gallon. I was using 27v and, for the first minute, or so, I read zero milliamps. Then, I started getting a little current flow. I'm thinking I stopped after 10 or 15 minutes and, by that time, I was getting substantial current flow. I assume that the metallic silver clusters (containing only a few atoms each) that formed became populated enough to allow some current to flow. When I ran it longer, although the solution was still water clear, there was a slight metallic sheen to it. 

If the electrodes were of some more inert metal, like maybe 304 SS, I would say there would never be any current flow unless some chemical producing ions was added to the solution.


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## butcher

When making colloidal silver I begin with the anode and cathode very close together this lowers the cells resistance to get a little silver ions in solution, once silver ions are in solution the anode cathode gap is separated as the silver ions in solution now lower cells resistance.

I know silver would oxidize and reduce in this cell but I still have questions on why the copper or other more reactive base metals are not also oxidizing into solution or plating out (or are they?).

Maybe hammering your spoon flat you could get the little silver out of the well of the spoon a little better.

modtheworld44,
Thanks for sharing your promising results.


----------



## goldsilverpro

modtheworld44 said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Fill jar about 3-5 inches from the top so you have plenty of room for rinseing periodically .
> 2.Clamp Anode and Cathode to jar (Leave Anode+ half out of water helps deplate better).Do not let your clamps touch the water.
> 3.Make sure that Anode and Cathode are across from one another ,not side by side.
> 4.Turn power supply on,after about 1 1/2 minutes you should start seeing the silver coming off in a cloudy stream.
> 5.After it runs for a hour or two the cell will start to get real cloudy and by this time you,ll start to see growth on the anode (don,t panic) just power the cell off .
> 6.Use spray bottle and tooth brush to clean Anode (Make sure to do this back into the cell).Do not clean Cathode.
> 7.Flip Anode around so deplated end is sticking out of water and reclamp, and turn power back on.
> 8.When second half is done , turn power off ,unclamp Anode and use it to stir the cell for about a minute then clean second half of Anode then replace with new Anode.Continue steps 2-8 Until step 9 comes into play.
> 9.When water is almost to the top near clamp, power down remove and clean current Anode,remove and spray only the Cathode(You want Cathode to stay tarnished black).
> 10.Now that cell is pregnant filter all liquid through 3 stacked coffee filters 1 time only.
> 11.Rinse black powder in filter with spray bottle, dry till it hardens then save for bigger melt.
> 12.Now refill cell with the same fluid you filtered and start again,except now you can leave Anode in for longer time period and let the growth grow longer before cleanings.
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44,
> 
> This is quite interesting. Who would have thought you could strip silver with water? I once messed around with making colloidal silver using 2 pure silver wires, distilled water, and 3, 9v batteries. I guess that is similar. A few questions.
> (1) I assume you used tap water with nothing else added. Is that true? Do you know the pH of the tap water?
> (2) You're using 12V. Do you have any idea how much amperage is used? Does the amperage change when the silver is stripped?
> (3) In your step 12, does the silver strip slower when you reuse the solution? When running multiple cycles using the same solution, do you reach a point where the silver stops stripping?
> (4) Is the filtered solution black?
> (5) Where did you get the idea that water would work for this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GSP
> 
> 
> 1.Yes that is true.Nothing else is added to the water not even salt.This was just my test phase so I haven't tested for PH yet.I have thought of that already just haven't had time or extra money yet to go purchase voltage meter or PH strips,but will as soon as I can.
> 2.I would assume that it does change some where in the process period but unable to test that right now.That is also something I've been thinking about.
> 3.I think this is what happens.When the silver is deplated it comes off in colloidal form and then when its done stripping or almost done it gets growed back as a silver chloride then when stirred against Cathode it gets its electrons back and drops as metal.Now don't quote me on that because I don't know that for sure but to me that's what it looks like is happening .
> 4.The solution its self is not black after you filter it but the powder is ,this is caused from the contact of the Cathode I believe.After I change my cell again I'm going to cover the Cathode to see if there's a change in the cell.
> 5.I got the idea from a post that was made in I think the Colloidal Silver thread.The person stated that if the Anode and Cathode were to far apart that it would cause the silver to come off in its ionic state instead of its colloidal state.So since we deal in ionic state I ran with it.
> 
> So far I've gotten 6.4 grams in 5 days but I haven't allowed my solution to fully unpregnate it self either.Also as I said in video it doesn't fully strip crevices and cups of the spoon.I have only run 11 spoons and forks so far,and four of those worth of silver are still in the cell.So technically out of 7 pieces I've recovered 6.4 grams.I hope this is enough information for you to get started,but if it aint let me know and I'll try to be more helpful.
> 
> modtheworld44
Click to expand...


To me, at least, this may be the most interesting new development I've seen in years. The work you've done has proven the concept but there are still improvements needed to speed it up. I commend you.

It would be interesting to dissolve that smallest BB in your video in about 1.5-2ml of warm 50/50 nitric, to see if there is any copper in it. If so, it will produce a blue color. If would also be interesting to collect a few drops of the filtered solution in a small beaker or clear drinking glass and add a drop of HCl or salt water to it. A white cloud would indicate some of the silver is ionic. I doubt if that will be the case.

Is there any fizzing (gas) coming off the electrodes when it is running? If so, it is splitting water. Water splitting at the cathode would produce H2 gas and OH- ion would enter the solution. At the anode, it would produce O2 gas and H+ ion. However, since the dissolving is inefficient, the amount of H+ and OH- would essentially be the same. All of the H+ and OH- would recombine to form water, H2O or, written another way, HOH. Therefore, there would be no ions in the solution and, without any negative ions, ionic silver (Ag+) couldn't exist, since the total negative charges and the total positive must be equal in any solution. 

I think the black is just finely divided agglomerated (come together) colloidal silver. It's great that the filtered solution isn't black. That would indicate to me that all the colloidal silver has aggomerated enough to be filterable. It isn't silver chloride. Is the solution water clear after filtering?

I don't think that adding any chemical to the water would be good unless you found some non ionic electrolyte that would increase the current flow and wouldn't break down at the electrodes. I think it would be best to keep the silver colloidal, rather than ionic. Also, you would have difficulties finding an ionic chemical that wouldn't electrolytically attack the copper, nickel, or zinc in that white alloy base metal.

In my estimation, the reason the current has difficulties penetrating into crevices or down into the bowl of the spoon is that the conductivity is poor. The current wants to flow to the high points and the shortest distance between 2 points. Even if the solution were ionic, the problem could exist, but not as bad. In the plating world, the ability of the current to "throw" into a crevice or a blind hole is called "throwing power". One way to increase the ability to throw into the bowl of the spoon would be to put the bowl of the cathode spoon inline and about 1/2" away from the anode spoon. This could be easier done on a non-conductive gig (or, rack) which would hold the spoons in position and prevent shorting. Another improvement that might work would be to use higher voltage. Maybe, try 2, 12v power supplies ganged together.


----------



## modtheworld44

butcher said:


> When making colloidal silver I begin with the anode and cathode very close together this lowers the cells resistance to get a little silver ions in solution, once silver ions are in solution the anode cathode gap is separated as the silver ions in solution now lower cells resistance.
> 
> I know silver would oxidize and reduce in this cell but I still have questions on why the copper or other more reactive base metals are not also oxidizing into solution or plating out (or are they?).
> 
> Maybe hammering your spoon flat you could get the little silver out of the well of the spoon a little better.
> 
> modtheworld44,
> Thanks for sharing your promising results.



Butcher

No thank you and all the other members of this forum for the refining education yall have provided me.I'm just trying to give something back even though its not much compared to what yall have given me.I meant to mention you and quite a few others in my video.Yall have given me Hope more than once.I really enjoy reading the forum on a daily basis.

Go to youtube and type chem 12 and find the videos by rcn2000 and watch those,it might help you to understand whats taking place.I have watched about 6 of his videos.I'll give your spoon flattening suggestion a try .
Thanks for your interest in my thread.



modtheworld44


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## butcher

modtheworld44, 
The videos I watched are just basic cell theory, which I understand.

What I am not understanding here in this water only electrolyte electrolytic cell is if there is some passivation anodically of the base metal, or if the cell is somewhat selective for silver, or if you are removing the articles when some of the silver is removed and it begins to work its way down to the base metal, I cannot understand how this would be selective for silver, and how you could effectively de-plate silver from base metal on the whole side of an anode spoon without also removing base metals, or leaving silver on portions further from cathode while not removing the base metal portion of the spoon closer to the cathode.

You are obviously getting silver, but are you leaving a lot of it behind, my question is this selective or would you lose a lot of the silver remaining on the spoon, how effective is this to remove silver and not base metal, or to remove most all the silver with minimum base metal.

Otherwise I do not see much difference in this than many of the other electrolytes that can be used in the cell to do the same job.


----------



## modtheworld44

goldsilverpro said:


> modtheworld44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Fill jar about 3-5 inches from the top so you have plenty of room for rinseing periodically .
> 2.Clamp Anode and Cathode to jar (Leave Anode+ half out of water helps deplate better).Do not let your clamps touch the water.
> 3.Make sure that Anode and Cathode are across from one another ,not side by side.
> 4.Turn power supply on,after about 1 1/2 minutes you should start seeing the silver coming off in a cloudy stream.
> 5.After it runs for a hour or two the cell will start to get real cloudy and by this time you,ll start to see growth on the anode (don,t panic) just power the cell off .
> 6.Use spray bottle and tooth brush to clean Anode (Make sure to do this back into the cell).Do not clean Cathode.
> 7.Flip Anode around so deplated end is sticking out of water and reclamp, and turn power back on.
> 8.When second half is done , turn power off ,unclamp Anode and use it to stir the cell for about a minute then clean second half of Anode then replace with new Anode.Continue steps 2-8 Until step 9 comes into play.
> 9.When water is almost to the top near clamp, power down remove and clean current Anode,remove and spray only the Cathode(You want Cathode to stay tarnished black).
> 10.Now that cell is pregnant filter all liquid through 3 stacked coffee filters 1 time only.
> 11.Rinse black powder in filter with spray bottle, dry till it hardens then save for bigger melt.
> 12.Now refill cell with the same fluid you filtered and start again,except now you can leave Anode in for longer time period and let the growth grow longer before cleanings.
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44,
> 
> This is quite interesting. Who would have thought you could strip silver with water? I once messed around with making colloidal silver using 2 pure silver wires, distilled water, and 3, 9v batteries. I guess that is similar. A few questions.
> (1) I assume you used tap water with nothing else added. Is that true? Do you know the pH of the tap water?
> (2) You're using 12V. Do you have any idea how much amperage is used? Does the amperage change when the silver is stripped?
> (3) In your step 12, does the silver strip slower when you reuse the solution? When running multiple cycles using the same solution, do you reach a point where the silver stops stripping?
> (4) Is the filtered solution black?
> (5) Where did you get the idea that water would work for this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GSP
> 
> 
> 1.Yes that is true.Nothing else is added to the water not even salt.This was just my test phase so I haven't tested for PH yet.I have thought of that already just haven't had time or extra money yet to go purchase voltage meter or PH strips,but will as soon as I can.
> 2.I would assume that it does change some where in the process period but unable to test that right now.That is also something I've been thinking about.
> 3.I think this is what happens.When the silver is deplated it comes off in colloidal form and then when its done stripping or almost done it gets growed back as a silver chloride then when stirred against Cathode it gets its electrons back and drops as metal.Now don't quote me on that because I don't know that for sure but to me that's what it looks like is happening .
> 4.The solution its self is not black after you filter it but the powder is ,this is caused from the contact of the Cathode I believe.After I change my cell again I'm going to cover the Cathode to see if there's a change in the cell.
> 5.I got the idea from a post that was made in I think the Colloidal Silver thread.The person stated that if the Anode and Cathode were to far apart that it would cause the silver to come off in its ionic state instead of its colloidal state.So since we deal in ionic state I ran with it.
> 
> So far I've gotten 6.4 grams in 5 days but I haven't allowed my solution to fully unpregnate it self either.Also as I said in video it doesn't fully strip crevices and cups of the spoon.I have only run 11 spoons and forks so far,and four of those worth of silver are still in the cell.So technically out of 7 pieces I've recovered 6.4 grams.I hope this is enough information for you to get started,but if it aint let me know and I'll try to be more helpful.
> 
> modtheworld44
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To me, at least, this may be the most interesting new development I've seen in years. The work you've done has proven the concept but there are still improvements needed to speed it up. I commend you.
> 
> It would be interesting to dissolve that smallest BB in your video in about 1.5-2ml of warm 50/50 nitric, to see if there is any copper in it. If so, it will produce a blue color. If would also be interesting to collect a few drops of the filtered solution in a small beaker or clear drinking glass and add a drop of HCl or salt water to it. A white cloud would indicate some of the silver is ionic. I doubt if that will be the case.
> 
> Is there any fizzing (gas) coming off the electrodes when it is running? If so, it is splitting water. Water splitting at the cathode would produce H2 gas and OH- ion would enter the solution. At the anode, it would produce O2 gas and H+ ion. However, since the dissolving is inefficient, the amount of H+ and OH- would essentially be the same. All of the H+ and OH- would recombine to form water, H2O or, written another way, HOH. Therefore, there would be no ions in the solution and, without any negative ions, ionic silver (Ag+) couldn't exist, since the total negative charges and the total positive must be equal in any solution.
> 
> I think the black is just finely divided agglomerated (come together) colloidal silver. It's great that the filtered solution isn't black. That would indicate to me that all the colloidal silver has aggomerated enough to be filterable. It isn't silver chloride. Is the solution water clear after filtering?
> 
> I don't think that adding any chemical to the water would be good unless you found some non ionic electrolyte that would increase the current flow and wouldn't break down at the electrodes. I think it would be best to keep the silver colloidal, rather than ionic. Also, you would have difficulties finding an ionic chemical that wouldn't electrolytically attack the copper, nickel, or zinc in that white alloy base metal.
> 
> In my estimation, the reason the current has difficulties penetrating into crevices or down into the bowl of the spoon is that the conductivity is poor. The current wants to flow to the high points and the shortest distance between 2 points. Even if the solution were ionic, the problem could exist, but not as bad. In the plating world, the ability of the current to "throw" into a crevice or a blind hole is called "throwing power". One way to increase the ability to throw into the bowl of the spoon would be to put the bowl of the cathode spoon inline and about 1/2" away from the anode spoon. This could be easier done on a non-conductive gig (or, rack) which would hold the spoons in position and prevent shorting. Another improvement that might work would be to use higher voltage. Maybe, try 2, 12v power supplies ganged together.
Click to expand...


GSP

You describe it so well .Yes it does fizz just a little from Cathode while cell is running but theres alot of fizzing during the stirring in between anode cleaning and changeing .When the silver starts to float to the top after you stir , the silver traps the gases underneath and gets released on the next stir.I also turn each side of the flatware toward the Cathode to get better deplating.I'll try your suggestion of moving the Anode closer.
I'm going to do the tests with acids just haven't gotten around to it.(LOL don't like the cold) I'm also going to make some more videos with better lighting so peaple can see what is actually taking place in the cell.I'll make them some time tomorrow probably.
Well thanks for your thoughts and input and maybe together we can get this up and running at its full potential .

P.S I have another cell theory for gold that doesn't involve acids either!



modtheworld44


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## MysticColby

a question) does it deplate equally from the cathode and anode?

My first guess on what is going on: electrons are added or taken away from water directly around silver plated material. The whole cell remains balanced, but in the local area, there is an imbalance, and the silver electrodes sometimes are given or take an electron, resulting in ionic silver, which would momentarily be in solution, then it would quickly give or take an electron and go back to metallic silver. But now it's free-floating in the water, eventually it aggregates with others and settles.
I would expect the base metal would also start coming off if left in there long enough. more reactive metals should even come off easier...


----------



## modtheworld44

butcher said:


> modtheworld44,
> The videos I watched are just basic cell theory, which I understand.
> 
> What I am not understanding here in this water only electrolyte electrolytic cell is if there is some passivation anodically of the base metal, or if the cell is somewhat selective for silver, or if you are removing the articles when some of the silver is removed and it begins to work its way down to the base metal, I cannot understand how this would be selective for silver, and how you could effectively de-plate silver from base metal on the whole side of an anode spoon without also removing base metals, or leaving silver on portions further from cathode while not removing the base metal portion of the spoon closer to the cathode.
> 
> You are obviously getting silver, but are you leaving a lot of it behind, my question is this selective or would you lose a lot of the silver remaining on the spoon, how effective is this to remove silver and not base metal, or to remove most all the silver with minimum base metal.
> 
> Otherwise I do not see much difference in this than many of the other electrolytes that can be used in the cell to do the same job.



Butcher

Let me start by offering you a apology,I wasn't by no means implying that you didn't understand cell theory or anything.I have read hundreds of your post ,I respect you and your knowledge of refining.I only pointed you in that direction to show you some more knowledge and did not know that you already retained that knowledge.I for one did not know the knowledge that I found in those videos so for me it was a gold mine in its self.I now understand the difference between a electrolytic cell and a electrochemical cell.
To answer your question I have not done the acid tests GSP was talking about and I see those tests as the only way to make sure whether or not it is selective or not.Now as far as the passitative part I think that happens on the Cathode when it becomes black,because I have cleaned it once just to see if it was being eroded any and as far as I could tell it wasn't.I plan to do the tests real soon so keep checking this thread for the results.Your input is very welcome any time.
Thanks and I hope this helps.



modtheworld44


----------



## modtheworld44

MysticColby said:


> a question) does it deplate equally from the cathode and anode?
> 
> My first guess on what is going on: electrons are added or taken away from water directly around silver plated material. The whole cell remains balanced, but in the local area, there is an imbalance, and the silver electrodes sometimes are given or take an electron, resulting in ionic silver, which would momentarily be in solution, then it would quickly give or take an electron and go back to metallic silver. But now it's free-floating in the water, eventually it aggregates with others and settles.
> I would expect the base metal would also start coming off if left in there long enough. more reactive metals should even come off easier...



MysticColby

No it only plates from Anode+.I try not to give the base metals that chance.
When I do the acid tests I'll know for sure.
Thanks for being a part of this journey with us.



modtheworld44


----------



## goldsilverpro

As I understand it, when using only water, the anodic pressure actually dislodges silver out of the crystal structure of the anode, somewhat mechanically, in clusters of a few atoms each. The clusters have varying numbers of atoms in it. True colloidal silver is a dispersion of solid metallic silver clusters in a liquid - two phases mixed intimately together, solid and liquid. This is totally unlike a silver cell, where the silver is oxidized and actually becomes part of the liquid. Ionic silver is not a solid, nor is it metallic.

Smoke is a colloid - solids mixed with a gas. Gels are colloids - a solid intimately mixed with a liquid.


----------



## modtheworld44

goldsilverpro said:


> As I understand it, when using only water, the anodic pressure actually dislodges silver out of the crystal structure of the anode, somewhat mechanically, in clusters of a few atoms each. The clusters have varying numbers of atoms in it. True colloidal silver is a dispersion of solid metallic silver clusters in a liquid - two phases mixed intimately together, solid and liquid. This is totally unlike a silver cell, where the silver is oxidized and actually becomes part of the liquid. Ionic silver is not a solid, nor is it metallic.
> 
> Smoke is a colloid - solids mixed with a gas. Gels are colloids - a solid intimately mixed with a liquid.



GSP

Thank you for the clarification on colloidal states,because out of everything I have read on the subject it never actually stated what the forms were as simply and clearly as you have.
Which brings me to this question.If the silver is coming off as colloidal then what exactly is making it reconvert to metal? When I'm watching it come off instead of going up to the top like you would think because of the gas it instead goes to the bottom.This cell really has allot of variables to it.But to me thats what makes this cell so different and interesting.
Thanks for info and if you come up with anything else feel free to share it here.

P.S You want to help test my gold cell theory!



modtheworld44


----------



## Geo

if you are using tap water, most tap water is chlorinated to some extent (at least in the US). this chlorine is measured in ppm but its still there. it could be the starting point of the reaction. your results may not work for everyone based on that alone. have you tried distilled water from the market? here, the utility that supplies the water sends out a analytic report on water quality once a year listing all contaminants and additives used in the tap water in their system. if yours doesnt supply one, you may be able to request one from your utility.


----------



## butcher

Colloids in solution are metal in solution already reduced.


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

goldsilverpro said:


> resabed01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pure water (H2O) does not conduct electricity. It acts more like a insulator. That said, it's a poor insulator because it's such a good solvent. It's the impurities in water that allows it to conduct.
> If you set up a cell with water and you're getting current flow that's a indicator that there are salts or minerals in the water.
> 
> At least that's what I've been taught.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily true. When you make colloidal silver electrolytically (using 2 pure silver wires) for ingestion purposes, you want the purest water you can find. You want to end up with un-ionized colloidal silver metal clusters rather than ionic silver. Some commercially made colloidal silver and some internet methods use dissolved solids and the resulting silver is ionic. After researching this, I became nearly convinced that the blue skin problem is caused by the ingestion of ionic silver and not true colloidal silver. Using a milliammeter, I tested several brands of distilled water. I figured the greater the initial current flow, the less pure the water. Some were very impure and produced a high initial current. The best I found, by far, was Walgreen's more expensive variety (they sell 2), which ran about $1.75/gallon. I was using 27v and, for the first minute, or so, I read zero milliamps. Then, I started getting a little current flow. I'm thinking I stopped after 10 or 15 minutes and, by that time, I was getting substantial current flow. I assume that the metallic silver clusters (containing only a few atoms each) that formed became populated enough to allow some current to flow. When I ran it longer, although the solution was still water clear, there was a slight metallic sheen to it.
> 
> If the electrodes were of some more inert metal, like maybe 304 SS, I would say there would never be any current flow unless some chemical producing ions was added to the solution.
Click to expand...


I also make colloidal and ionic solutions with 99.999 fine silver rods as cathode and anode in an earlimyer flask.

Here is the website:

http://www.silverlungs.com/

I don't promote businesses usually but these people have got it right. If you call them, you will be actually speaking to one of the two individuals who developed this system. I have been thinking about inviting them here. They very well may have something to contribute worthwhile.

Scott


----------



## g_axelsson

I'm with Butcher and Geo, there is something in the water that makes his work for you. As far as I know deionized water is a very good insulator and shouldn't be able to conduct any current at all. Are you using tap water?

If you are watching the silver come off in flakes then you aren't dissolving the silver, you are attacking the metal below and the silver plating is dropping off.

What happens if you use a pure silver object? If your solution is attacking the silver in silver plate then it should do it with a massive silver object too.

Anyhow, an interesting way to do things, maybe something usable will come out of this. Keep us posted.

Btw Butcher, colloidals doesn't have to be metals, a good (pun intended) counter example is colloidal fat in milk. :-D

/Göran


----------



## Marcel

A working electrolyt with pure H2O is impossible.Period.
What has happened here is that small impurities in the water (chlorine f.i.) or watersoluable material on the spoons have dissolved. As the process continues more impurities are accumulated in the solution which increases the conductivity. It is an avalanche effect. Very slow in the beginning and getting better over time.
I have tried the gold cell once with water. Just added minimal salt to it. It was the same effect. The amperage started very low and got higher as material dissolved. It works but all you do is create very dilute Cu(II)Cl. Here is a similiar effect. Something has dissolved - I suppose from the spoons - and created an electrolyte.


----------



## ericrm

that tread is so interesting ,i wish i had a chemistry background to give rather than take

why does silver acumulate in *metalic* form in the solution ? shound it be in a ionic form? why isnt it plating out? im also wondering why the powder is black? is it the same phenomenon that with gold and sulfuric?

or is it that the silver plate out so badly that it just doesnt hold as a plating(like with cucl when it just plate as a moss,but in this case it doesnt dissolve back because its water)?

edit:A more advanced system can be made by using a flow through process, where the EIS is drained off and new distilled water is added continually.* Also, during electrolysis there will be a black buildup of silver powder on the cathode, and brown silver oxide on the anode.* Reversing the polarity of the voltage every minute or so will cause these buildups to dissipate during the cycle. If you do not reverse polarity during brewing, then the electrodes should be cleaned after each use without using any soap or detergent.

this is from : THE REAL FACTS ON COLLOIDAL SILVER i dont know the validity of this , but it realy looklike what is happening....


----------



## goldsilverpro

Marcel said:


> A working electrolyt with pure H2O is impossible.Period.
> What has happened here is that small impurities in the water (chlorine f.i.) or watersoluable material on the spoons have dissolved. As the process continues more impurities are accumulated in the solution which increases the conductivity. It is an avalanche effect. Very slow in the beginning and getting better over time.
> I have tried the gold cell once with water. Just added minimal salt to it. It was the same effect. The amperage started very low and got higher as material dissolved. It works but all you do is create very dilute Cu(II)Cl. Here is a similiar effect. Something has dissolved - I suppose from the spoons - and created an electrolyte.


All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.


----------



## MysticColby

It's getting a little annoying that people keep saying that ultra pure water can not conduct electricity, can't be used as electrolyte, etc. first of all, I'm pretty sure there are no known materials that can't conduct any electricity. Given enough voltage, electrons will flow (anyone else watching Revolution and just shaking their head?). ultra pure water CAN conduct electricity. As a measure of it's purity, people usually use it's resistance. I believe ultra pure water has a resistance of 18.2 MΩ/cm (Mega Ohm per centimeter). granted, you would need a huge voltage to see an appreciably current, but it's there.
And this is why it CAN be used as an electrolyte - there IS a current, although very small. However, most cells rely on the impurities to partake in the reaction... unless you're just splitting water or (apparently) deplating silver.
Using tap water reduces this resistance considerably, as every water utility makes sure there is some impurities in it. deionized water isn't very tasty if you're used to non-deionized.


----------



## modtheworld44

MysticColby said:


> It's getting a little annoying that people keep saying that ultra pure water can not conduct electricity, can't be used as electrolyte, etc. first of all, I'm pretty sure there are no known materials that can't conduct any electricity. Given enough voltage, electrons will flow (anyone else watching Revolution and just shaking their head?). ultra pure water CAN conduct electricity. As a measure of it's purity, people usually use it's resistance. I believe ultra pure water has a resistance of 18.2 MΩ/cm (Mega Ohm per centimeter). granted, you would need a huge voltage to see an appreciably current, but it's there.
> And this is why it CAN be used as an electrolyte - there IS a current, although very small. However, most cells rely on the impurities to partake in the reaction... unless you're just splitting water or (apparently) deplating silver.
> Using tap water reduces this resistance considerably, as every water utility makes sure there is some impurities in it. deionized water isn't very tasty if you're used to non-deionized.



MysticColby

I'm with you and GSP on this one,Water Can conduct electricity.

FOR ALL

Has any of yall tried this your selfs 

The point of this thread was to provide everyone with a economical way to deplate silver without acid.I think that I have done that so far,But I would like to get to the bottom of what exactly is taking place in the cell.The only way to do that is for other members to do the set up too,then state there findings back here in this thread.
Thanks to all for your input so far look forward to reading more.



modtheworld44


----------



## Geo

i will set up a process tomorrow with approximate materials. i want to try the first time with regular tap water that has been through a filter to remove heavy metal,iron and reduce chlorine. i could use distilled but for the sake of experimenting, filtered water will be the first electrolyte. i have some plated flatware to try.if this works ok, i have about five pounds of silver plated military contacts ill try to figure out.


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

Pure water does not conduct electricity very well, hardly at all, this is true.

HOWEVER, in order to explain how colloidal silver is made, we should look at what is actually happening at the anode and cathode.

H+ cations will accumulate at the anode and OH− anions will accumulate at the cathode. This can be verified by adding a pH indicator to the water, the water near the anode is acidic while the water near the cathode is basic. The negative hydroxyl ions that approach the anode mostly combine with the positive hydronium ions (H3O+) to form water. The positive hydronium ions that approach the negative cathode mostly combine with negative hydroxyl ions to form water. Relatively few hydronium (hydroxyl) ions reach the cathode (anode). This can cause a concentration over potential at both electrodes.

In pure water at the negatively charged cathode, a reduction reaction takes place, with electrons (e−) from the cathode being given to hydrogen cations to form hydrogen gas (the half reaction balanced with acid):

Reduction at cathode: 2 H+(aq) + 2e− → H2(g)

At the positively charged anode, an oxidation reaction occurs, generating oxygen gas and giving electrons to the anode to complete the circuit:

Anode (oxidation): 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 H+(aq) + 4e− 

Because the the cathode is made of silver, and because the silver oxidizes, small particles of silver, colloidal, are freed up and enter into solution.

Silver conducts electricity better than any of the other metals. So the more colloidal silver particles in the water, the better the water conducts electricity and the faster the oxidation/reaction takes place.

When making colloidal silver, it starts very slow, towards the end it speeds up considerably. I have watched this many times, I only use distilled water,I have made a lot of colloidal and ionic silver solutions.

Scott


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

Also, because electricity will always take the path of least resistance, the flow of electrons are leaving your spoons at the handle, not at the scoop/spoon end. You can solve this by simply hammering your silverware flat, and turning them upside down after the top portion has been deplated. Ensuring the same distance between the full length of the anode and cathode, and turning them upside down after deplating the top portion, should allow you to completely deplate your silverware.

Scott


----------



## modtheworld44

Geo said:


> i will set up a process tomorrow with approximate materials. i want to try the first time with regular tap water that has been through a filter to remove heavy metal,iron and reduce chlorine. i could use distilled but for the sake of experimenting, filtered water will be the first electrolyte. i have some plated flatware to try.if this works ok, i have about five pounds of silver plated military contacts ill try to figure out.



Geo

I'm really glad you've decided to try this and can't wait to here of your success.Take some notes and let us know what you're seeing in your setup.Let me know your specs for the cell you're making so we can cross reference the variations .Together I think we can make this turn out much better than what I've done.I'll make some more videos tomorrow ,Rain got in the way today .I plan on doing some acid tests on the solution and powder,But I do all activities involving acids outside .So as long as its not raining I'll be doing them.I look forward to your knowledge and input on this project.
thanks.



modtheworld44


----------



## modtheworld44

FOR ALL

Heres another video I made just a few minutes ago.





modtheworld44


----------



## skippy

goldsilverpro said:


> All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.



Could you explain more about the plotted relationship? You mean current was proportional to weight loss rate?
Where did the coloid go if it was water clear?


----------



## Geo




----------



## modtheworld44

Geo 

Thanks for posting the video here.Was that the copy embedded HTML.Its been a while since I posted a video like you did it.Have you watched the second video yet.Can't wait to see what kind of progress you get out of your cell.
Thanks.



modtheworld44


----------



## Geo

i tried to post the second one but i guess it was still being processed. it takes awhile for someone else to post your videos. i did watch it and it looks really promising. that was definitely silver coming off as a white precipitate. i think its silver chloride from the chlorine in the water. silver chloride is white and looks just like that when testing with hcl in a nitric solution.i wouldnt worry about it much because its only a small amount compared to what you are reclaiming.after the chlorine is depleted, the white precipitate should stop and silver will deplate in larger pieces from the looks of your first video.


----------



## Geo




----------



## goldsilverpro

skippy said:


> All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.
> 
> Could you explain more about the plotted relationship? You mean current was proportional to weight loss rate?
> Where did the coloid go if it was water clear?



The weight loss was proportional to the total number of amp-min or, amps times minutes. If the average amperage was .012 and it ran for 10 min, the number of amp-min would be .012 x 10 = .12. It was a long time ago and I don't remember the exact mathematical relationship between the two, but I know there was one.

The colloid clusters are so small they are invisible to the eye. I know they were there because I could taste them. Please note that I didn't taste the solution directly. I diluted a few drops with a small amount of water first. I should have used the Tyndall Effect to observe them, but I didn't. As I said before, after running it a longer period of time, there was a definite metallic sheen to the overall solution, but no individual particles could be seen. Had I run it longer, I would guess the clusters could combine (agglomerate) and perhaps become visible.


tyndall effect solution - Google Search




tyndall effect solution - Google Search


___________________________________

On the internet, you can find many totally different explanations on how these silver colloids form from the electrolysis in water and what they are actually composed of. I've come to the conclusion that nobody knows exactly what is happening, including myself and the people in the link that Scott gave. Everything I've seen so far is unsubstantiated theory.

To me, the important thing is that modtheworld44 has come up with an interesting process for stripping silver that appears to have some promise. It has some problems and it's not there yet. It doesn't "throw" into low current density areas and it's too slow. Also, what happens with the copper, if anything? At this point, experimentation is all important. If it can be made to work efficiently, who cares why it works? I know I don't. Sort of the forest and the trees type thing, if you concentrate on the theory instead of just making it work. If it works well, it could be a boon to everyone. This is water, folks. You can't get much safer or cheaper than that. Sure beats 180F, 95/5, H2SO4/HNO3.

One of the first things I would try is raising the pH with NaOH. I know of other stripping processes (using cyanide) where that works for stripping the silver and, at the same time, suppresses attack on the copper. Also, it might help the current throw into the low current density areas, prevent any ionic silver from forming, and the waste could be easily neutralized with HCl.. Another thing to try is to increase the voltage. Another is adding some heat. I can think of other things to try.

These experiments could be done in 100-200ml beakers. In any experiment, though, it is very important to be able to test the results. Another standard rule in experimentation is to never change more than one thing (variable) at a time. If you change 2 or more things and it works, you don't know which change made it work. Another rule I follow is, if I'm I'm adding some chemical to a solution, I always start with a small amount, run that, and then add more in increments to the same solution for future experiments. That way, you can perform multiple experiments without making up a fresh solution. If you add too much to start with, in order to reduce it, you have to use a fresh solution. And, of course, weigh or measure each addition and keep records.
______________________________

Something I've considered. Since modtheworld44 was able to melt that black stuff and end up with silver BBs, I would think the black stuff would have to be either silver metal or silver oxide. It certainly isn't silver chloride. Silver oxide is a possibility since oxygen is produced at the anode and silver oxide is easily reducible to metal with heat. Also, some of the internet explanations suggest this mechanism. As far as the end results are concerned, though, it makes no difference. The proof is in the pudding.


----------



## modtheworld44

goldsilverpro said:


> skippy said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.
> 
> Could you explain more about the plotted relationship? You mean current was proportional to weight loss rate?
> Where did the coloid go if it was water clear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The weight loss was proportional to the total number of amp-min or, amps times minutes. If the average amperage was .012 and it ran for 10 min, the number of amp-min would be .012 x 10 = .12. It's been a long time ago and I don't remember the exact mathematical relationship between the two.
> 
> The colloid clusters are so small they are invisible to the eye. I know they were there because I could taste them. Please note that I didn't taste the solution directly. I diluted a few drops with a small amount of water first. I should have used the Tyndall Effect to observe them, but I didn't. As I said before, after running it a longer period of time, there was a definite metallic sheen to the overall solution, but no individual particles could be seen. Had I run it longer, I would guess the clusters could agglomerate together and perhaps become visible.
> https://www.google.com/search?q=tyndall+effect+solution&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a
> https://www.google.com/search?q=tyndall+effect+solution&hl=en&client=firefox-a&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RpbUUPOlIOWU2QWTvIDwAw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1138&bih=468
> ___________________________________
> 
> On the internet, you can find many totally different explanations on how these silver colloids form from the electrolysis in water and what they are actually composed of. I've come to the conclusion that nobody knows exactly what is happening, including myself and the people in the link that Scott gave. Everything I've seen so far is unsubstantiated theory.
> 
> To me, the important thing is that modtheworld44 has come up with an interesting process for stripping silver that appears to have some promise. It has some problems and it's not there yet. It doesn't "throw" into low current density areas and it's too slow. Also, what happens with the copper, if anything? At this point, experimentation is all important. If it can be made to work efficiently, who cares why it works? I know I don't. Sort of the forest and the trees type thing, if you concentrate on the theory instead of just making it work. If it works well, it could be a boon to everyone. This is water, folks. You can't get much safer or cheaper than that. Sure beats 180F, 95/5, H2SO4/HNO3.
> 
> One of the first things I would try is raising the pH with NaOH. I know of other stripping processes (using cyanide) where that works for stripping the silver and, at the same time, suppresses attack on the copper. Another is to increase the voltage. I can think of other things to try. These experiments could be done in 100-200ml beakers. In any experiment, though, the most important thing is to be able to test the results. Another standard rule in experimentation is to never change more than one thing (variable) at a time. If you change 2 or more things and it works, you don't know which change made it work.
> ______________________________
> 
> Something I've considered. Since modtheworld44 was able to melt that black stuff and end up with silver BBs, I would think the black stuff would have to be either silver metal or silver oxide. Silver oxide is a possibility since oxygen is produced at the anode and silver oxide is easily reducible to metal with heat. Also, some of the internet explanations suggest this mechanism. As far as the end results are concerned, though, it makes no difference. The proof is in the pudding.
Click to expand...


GSP

I agree on all accounts.There is no better economical solution as far as I can tell.What makes it so great is NO ACIDS unless you want to try and clean up the powders.I don't use any because I'm going to refine the silver further anyways once its melted.which again saves on acid.So all around its a WIN,WIN cell.
Yeah I think your right about the silver oxide ,But also I think geo could be right about there being chlorides.The reason being that when you do a melt very small trace amounts seem to incinerate into thin air. I'll see if I can get it on video.My reason for the stirring was simple . make all particles come in contact with Cathode to force change.
Well going to get kids Christmas layaway and when I get back will start making more videos.
THANKS for your great support and in the end we'll all have one great cell.



modtheworld44


----------



## MysticColby

yeah, this will be my first thing to try when I collect enough silver plated stuff to start reclaming.
modtheworld mentioned pregnant cell, implying that after a while you have to harvest it. Aside from the beaker filling up with silver powder, I'm not sure why this would be the case. Along these lines, I'd say you should be careful not to have your anode and cathode touch the silver on the beaker bottom (short circuit).
Is this one of those cases where higher voltage and amperage = faster deplating? In most cells, you have to be within a narrow range of voltages, but I'm not so sure that applies here.


----------



## Geo

ive read of cells that use relatively high voltage (28v) but low amps. if i never do anything else, i am going to learn the different volts potential for each metal.


----------



## goldsilverpro

Since there is a small amount of chloride in tap water, there could be some silver chloride in the sludge. The recommended upper EPA limit for chlorides in drinking water is 250mg/l. With that, about 0.75g of silver per liter could be precipitated as silver chloride. If you reuse the water, the chlorides should be gone and no AgCl would be present after the first batch.

It may be like the sulfuric cell and partially short out with a lot of metallic particles floating in the solution. It would be very advantageous to a have an ammeter rigged in series with the cell and monitor it often. That way, you could probably tell when it needs harvesting.


----------



## modtheworld44

GSP

If the black powder is Silver oxide what kind of effect would the Hcl acid have on it.Would or should it cause another state change.Just wondering some of the things that I should look for when I do the powder test.I haven't ever dealt with silver oxide that I'm aware of.Something else that would be helpful ,what state is the gold in when it comes off in the sulfuric cell.Is it considered Gold oxide when in it's black powder form also.If so my other theory works for gold cell without the use of acids.
Your right about the chlorides being gone ,except for the factor that I'm reintroduceing them to the cell when I rinse with spray bottle.I'll start rinseing to an outside container and see if anything changes.
Thanks for the insightful Knowledge and if your able to can you try too answer my above questions.

Geo

I'm going to buy me some much needed supplies at income tax time.This will include a very nice power supply with duel meters for volts and amps.I intend to do many more tests on my theories,so I can share the Knowledge with everyone.Right now I consider the 12 volts pretty high for the little 2.5 amps that my power supply is putting out.But until that time comes I'll have to be satisfied with what I got,which for the results so far I am.
Well thanks again for your support and input,Got to get started on those videos.



modtheworld44


----------



## goldsilverpro

modtheworld44 said:


> GSP
> 
> If the black powder is Silver oxide what kind of effect would the Hcl acid have on it.Would or should it cause another state change.Just wondering some of the things that I should look for when I do the powder test.I haven't ever dealt with silver oxide that I'm aware of.Something else that would be helpful ,what state is the gold in when it comes off in the sulfuric cell.Is it considered Gold oxide when in it's black powder form also.If so my other theory works for gold cell without the use of acids.
> Your right about the chlorides being gone ,except for the factor that I'm reintroduceing them to the cell when I rinse with spray bottle.I'll start rinseing to an outside container and see if anything changes.
> Thanks for the insightful Knowledge and if your able to can you try too answer my above questions.
> 
> Geo
> 
> I'm going to buy me some much needed supplies at income tax time.This will include a very nice power supply with duel meters for volts and amps.I intend to do many more tests on my theories,so I can share the Knowledge with everyone.Right now I consider the 12 volts pretty high for the little 2.5 amps that my power supply is putting out.But until that time comes I'll have to be satisfied with what I got,which for the results so far I am.
> Well thanks again for your support and input,Got to get started on those videos.
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44


The silver oxide would dissolve in the HCl and then immediately form silver chloride. When you melt the silver, the AgCl will form a layer between the slag and the silver. If that happens, you will have great difficulties recovering it. I would avoid using anything with chlorides in it. Have you tried making the bath with distilled water? Might be interesting. You could also use distilled water to rinse the electrodes. A cheap brand of distilled water costs about $.69/gallon. You could also buy RO water from one of those machines in a grocery store where you bring your own jug. Cheaper still. It's quite pure and I can't see how any chlorides would be in it.

The black gold in the sulfuric cell is metallic gold. It looks black because the particles are so small, the eye can't discern them. Under a 1000x scope, the particles probably look golden.


----------



## modtheworld44

For all
Heres part three of this cell series.


----------



## Geo

part three


----------



## Geo

part four


----------



## modtheworld44

Geo 
Thanks for posting both,You just beat me to the 4 one while I was posting it .Now I know for sure its the youtube button! You sure are fast LOL.


modtheworld44


----------



## Geo

:lol: you said post. i aim to please.


----------



## modtheworld44

Geo said:


> :lol: you said post. i aim to please.



Geo

:mrgreen: Well your aim was true,because I'm pleased!
So what did you think of my videos,were they way off on the theory or what?
Let me know please I like reading your input and your analysis .
Thanks.



modtheworld44


----------



## Geo

when you added hcl to the clear liquid and it didnt make a white cloud means there was no nitrate (silver nitrate) in the solution. the slight reaction when you added the hcl to the powders was the silver oxide converting to silver chloride. since the reaction was very subdued means there wasnt much silver oxide in the mix. that leads me to believe that the powder is mostly elemental silver. its coming off the spoon in metal form instead of a salt. either that or somehow converting to metal after oxidizing.i dont see that happening.


----------



## modtheworld44

Geo said:


> when you added hcl to the clear liquid and it didnt make a white cloud means there was no nitrate (silver nitrate) in the solution. the slight reaction when you added the hcl to the powders was the silver oxide converting to silver chloride. since the reaction was very subdued means there wasnt much silver oxide in the mix. that leads me to believe that the powder is mostly elemental silver. its coming off the spoon in metal form instead of a salt. either that or somehow converting to metal after oxidizing.i dont see that happening.



Geo 

I noticed after I filmed the Forth video and started to clean up the powder bowl.That the white powder when rinsed is actually silver metal powders,because it doesn't have the floaty quality like silver chloride it sank to the bottom.I think next melt I'm going to clean the black powders in Hcl before the melt.I went ahead and melted the powders that I had intended to shoot the melt video with last night because I became to tired to melt and film at the same time.I did how ever Weigh the black powders at 5.4 grams and that gave me another 3.2 gram button now my total is 9.5 grams.I'm going to eventually melt all my buttons together.I did change another variable by running two Anodes on the same clamp which seems to be working,hopefully this will speed up production.This cell although it works is slow compared to other cells,I'm at the conclusion that more power is needed to speed things up a bit.I'm thinking 24volts and 9-10amps would probably do the job much faster.
Have you started your cell yet Geo?If so what do you see happening?
Well thanks again for your input and help.



modtheworld44


----------



## Geo

actually, im having to dig my silver plated flatware out from storage. everything else is ready.


----------



## g_axelsson

Try to run the same experiment with a piece of pure silver, then we can say if the base metal have something to do with the result or if this is only depending on the silver.

/Göran


----------



## modtheworld44

Geo said:


> actually, im having to dig my silver plated flatware out from storage. everything else is ready.



Geo

What type of specs are you going with for your cell?



modtheworld44


----------



## goldsilverpro

g_axelsson said:


> Try to run the same experiment with a piece of pure silver, then we can say if the base metal have something to do with the result or if this is only depending on the silver.
> 
> /Göran


I agree. Weigh the silver before and after.


----------



## modtheworld44

goldsilverpro said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try to run the same experiment with a piece of pure silver, then we can say if the base metal have something to do with the result or if this is only depending on the silver.
> 
> /Göran
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Weigh the silver before and after.
Click to expand...


GSP,g_axelsson

Ok, just put 925 drummerboy charm in the cell and start weight was 1.9 grams.

Would you like a video of this?

Thanks guys for your input,me and Geo were starting to get a little lonely in here LOL. :mrgreen: 



modtheworld44


----------



## jimdoc

925 is sterling and is not pure, it will still have copper in it.

Jim


----------



## modtheworld44

jimdoc said:


> 925 is sterling and is not pure, it will still have copper in it.
> 
> Jim



jimdoc

Your right ,I just like using 925 because it takes less time to type for me LOL I'm slow as a turtle when typeing . Thanks for joining in and subscribeing to my Youtube channel it really means alot.



modtheworld44


----------



## jimdoc

modtheworld44 said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 925 is sterling and is not pure, it will still have copper in it.
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> jimdoc
> Your right ,I just like using 925 because it takes less time to type for me LOL I'm slow as a turtle when typeing . Thanks for joining in and subscribeing to my Youtube channel it really means alot.
> modtheworld44
Click to expand...



I was mainly pointing out that g_axelsson suggested using "pure silver" in the experiment.
Like maybe a silver eagle or other 999 coin.

Thanks for sharing your experiments, they are very interesting.
Jim


----------



## dukesoz

I for one would like to see a video of it.
I have been following since your 1st post.

Regards Duke


modtheworld44 said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try to run the same experiment with a piece of pure silver, then we can say if the base metal have something to do with the result or if this is only depending on the silver.
> 
> /Göran
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Weigh the silver before and after.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GSP,g_axelsson
> 
> Ok, just put 925 drummerboy charm in the cell and start weight was 1.9 grams.
> 
> Would you like a video of this?
> 
> Thanks guys for your input,me and Geo were starting to get a little lonely in here LOL. :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44
Click to expand...


----------



## modtheworld44

For All
Heres video 5 of the cell series.





modtheworld44


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

Hello All of you.

This is very cool, especially if could work for others then modtheworld.
I should say thank you modtheworld, course it dos seme to work for me allso.

First i tryed with a small 9v battery, and something did happen, but very slow. Then i went dawn in my car to get a car battery charger.
I hooket it up like modtheworld suggestet, i sat the volt at 24-on slow sitting, and the proces got a lot faster. 
I startet to see some kind of heavy fog in the water, slowly falling to the bottem of my glas bowl, then after a couple of minuttes, some blackish/dark gray stof falling dawn from my silver platet spoon, witch wos conected to the possetive lead+. I guess thats the silver comming of right? I allso se some small bubling from the negative lead. 
My water has a ph of 7,2. And its "hard" water here in Copenhagen where i live. 
I can tell that the process is very slow, and it seems to get slower when i submerg the spoon fully in the water. Course at first, i only had an inch dippet in the water, and this grayish stof startet to fall of in maybe 3-4min, now that its fully submerget, it goes a lot slower.

Hope you all can read and understand my poor english.


----------



## dukesoz

modtheworld44 said:


> For All
> Heres video 5 of the cell series.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfm-oRlT0OI
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44



Thanks for the video's,I think this process is much safer for us newbies to use, before progressing to acids.

Duke


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

Edited for corection. It still works, i just needet to brush of the plating that ocoured on my catode- i thuoght is whos deplating to, but it whos not.


----------



## modtheworld44

TheGarbageManCan said:


> Edited for corection. It still works, i just needet to brush of the plating that ocoured on my catode- i thuoght is whos deplating to, but it whos not.



TheGarbageManCan

I'm glad you have decided to take part in this project.Can you tell me about how long its taking for the silver to plate out for you.You are using 24volts right.


dukesoz

That was why I first tried this cell,Because for new people that come to the forum its very safe and is a good starting point.The newbies could start here and while they let there cell run they can start reading Hoke and the forum.I aways do at least 3 full weeks of research before I start a major project.When I started Refining I done a full month and a half.I do research every day,The more you read the more Knowledge you gain.



modtheworld44


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

Hello modtheworld. 

I cant really tell yet since i'm having truble seeing when the silver plate is all gone. I need more experiance in deplating plated silver to know when to stop. I just let it sit maybe 1,5 hour, and then turn the peaces( iam working on plated cups atm) allso i think (without having mutch experience) that the plate on my stuff is really thin.! 

One thing- my h2o solution, is milky white, with thise milky withe fine partikels floading around. I dos'nt look like yours in your videos?
Is all thise small partikles floading, my silver?

One more question, do you think its posibel to leave it in too long?


----------



## modtheworld44

TheGarbageManCan said:


> Hello modtheworld.
> 
> I cant really tell yet since i'm having truble seeing when the silver plate is all gone. I need more experiance in deplating plated silver to know when to stop. I just let it sit maybe 1,5 hour, and then turn the peaces( iam working on plated cups atm) allso i think (without having mutch experience) that the plate on my stuff is really thin.!
> 
> One thing- my h2o solution, is milky white, with thise milky withe fine partikels floading around. I dos'nt look like yours in your videos?
> Is all thise small partikles floading, my silver?
> 
> One more question, do you think its posibel to leave it in too long?



TheGarbageManCan

The solution will be milky white until you stir and clean Anode back into the cell for the first time.I clean and rotate my Anode after the growth builds up pretty thick.When cleaning Anode,spray and brush it good then wipe a small section with rag , you should see a shiney silver white metal this is where it is deplated.Hope this helps if not let me know.
Thanks for sharing your progress and your support.


P.S. I have left mine in overnight and it doesn't seem to make a difference except that theres alot of growth by the time I get up.



modtheworld44


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

Ok thank you modtheworld!

I should say that i'm really impresset by this method! Water, curent and time, Thats all!

Now its time to find out whats really going on, and see where improovements cant be addet. 


I wanna ask if there is any safety conserns whit doing this? Exept the use of electricite? 
And i allso would like to know in what "state" the precipitated silver is on the bottem of my glasbowl? Can i just collect it and melt right away with some kind of flux, and then refine the bar later on?

Kudos to you modtheworld!!


----------



## modtheworld44

TheGarbageManCan said:


> Ok thank you modtheworld!
> 
> I should say that i'm really impresset by this method! Water, curent and time, Thats all!
> 
> Now its time to find out whats really going on, and see where improovements cant be addet.
> 
> 
> I wanna ask if there is any safety conserns whit doing this? Exept the use of electricite?
> And i allso would like to know in what "state" the precipitated silver is on the bottem of my glasbowl? Can i just collect it and melt right away with some kind of flux, and then refine the bar later on?
> 
> Kudos to you modtheworld!!



TheGarbageManCan

Ok heres some yield data to look at.I use the one gallon pickle jar so the diameter is around 10inches and I try to get at least 1-2 inches of sediment before I filter cell solution.This normally will fill 2/3 of my filter cone up ,but when dried really good you loose about 3/4 of that mass to water weight.The last batch I did before the one in my cell now was 5.4 grams dried black powder and 3.2 grams metal button after melt.I have gotten almost 10grams so far from around 12-13 silverware pieces forks,spoons and some of that was big spoons and forks.I'm fixing to do my fifth run filtering around five pm today and I'll post the results a little later than that.I plan on introducing a new power supply to see if that speeds my cell production up.The answer to the state its in is Metal ,but if you use a crucible understand it will leave it BLACK so unless you have more than one I don't recommend it,unless its already messed up from a previous melt.You can use Borax 20 mule team washing powder as flux.

The only concern that I can see is if your running it in a small confined area where the hydrogen gas could do a build up and a spark ignites the gas or you breath in large quantitys of it.

Can you provide us with these specs of your cell.

What volt and amps you use?
What gage wire is your clamps on? 
What size your cell container is?

As always thanks for your input and support on this project!



modtheworld44


----------



## MysticColby

Should we try to remove chlorine from the tap water before running this? (leave it in open air for a day or so)
Or should we try to start with DI water and add a mg or so of NaCl?


----------



## Geo

it seems to be reacting to the silver and not the base metal. the .925 charm is breaking down. the silver content is too high for the base metal content to be effect to such an extent. very good work. the weather here has been terrible as im sure most of you in the south are aware. my silver plate is stored in a outside shed on the property and my creaking old bones protest the thought of going out to look for it. im getting anxious to try this. my wife said and i quote "i dont care if it is just water, your not setting that up in my sink" i said "ok, ill put it by the bed so i can keep an eye on it". :lol:


----------



## modtheworld44

Geo said:


> it seems to be reacting to the silver and not the base metal. the .925 charm is breaking down. the silver content is too high for the base metal content to be effect to such an extent. very good work. the weather here has been terrible as im sure most of you in the south are aware. my silver plate is stored in a outside shed on the property and my creaking old bones protest the thought of going out to look for it. im getting anxious to try this. my wife said and i quote "i dont care if it is just water, your not setting that up in my sink" i said "ok, ill put it by the bed so i can keep an eye on it". :lol:



Geo 

You make me laugh so hard sometimes reading your posts.I wish I was there I'd go get your silver for you.Yes we're all getting this bad weather its just so icky LOL :mrgreen: 




MysticColby said:


> Should we try to remove chlorine from the tap water before running this? (leave it in open air for a day or so)
> Or should we try to start with DI water and add a mg or so of NaCl?




MysticColby

I really don't think it will matter to be honest.Use regular tap water your first time so you can see how it works ,then try it another way that way you can see if something different happens and you can let us know.

Thanks to both of yall for trying this out and for your continueing support.



modtheworld44


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

Geo said:


> it seems to be reacting to the silver and not the base metal. the .925 charm is breaking down. the silver content is too high for the base metal content to be effect to such an extent. very good work. the weather here has been terrible as im sure most of you in the south are aware. my silver plate is stored in a outside shed on the property and my creaking old bones protest the thought of going out to look for it. im getting anxious to try this. my wife said and i quote "i dont care if it is just water, your not setting that up in my sink" i said "ok, ill put it by the bed so i can keep an eye on it". :lol:




Haha i like that^ 

I will be good to get some more brains in this venture..

My setup is like this atm:
Running 24 V 7 A power. I tryed 24v and 10A, but could'n se any differince.
My glas bowl is around 4 litres/~1,5gal i think.
Catode/anode is sitting aprox 5inc from itchothers- i tryed mohing both closer and longer distance, but could not see any chance. 
I have now cleanet the silver of 1 spoon, and 2 suger cups at the size of a grown mans fist, and i think all in all it has run for 12-15h. It won't get the silver inside thise cups, so i'm saveing them, and then i will flatten out with a hammer. I should allso mention that i'm turning the cups as they get strippet, course it seems that they only get strippet on the side facing the catode-or maybe i just needs more patien and it will get there
I now have a bit more than 0,5inch gryish sediment on the botten, and the botten of my bowl is messuring 6-7inch in diameter. 

Hope this all makes sense.


----------



## modtheworld44

TheGarbageManCan said:


> Geo said:
> 
> 
> 
> it seems to be reacting to the silver and not the base metal. the .925 charm is breaking down. the silver content is too high for the base metal content to be effect to such an extent. very good work. the weather here has been terrible as im sure most of you in the south are aware. my silver plate is stored in a outside shed on the property and my creaking old bones protest the thought of going out to look for it. im getting anxious to try this. my wife said and i quote "i dont care if it is just water, your not setting that up in my sink" i said "ok, ill put it by the bed so i can keep an eye on it". :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha i like that^
> 
> I will be good to get some more brains in this venture..
> 
> My setup is like this atm:
> Running 24 V 7 A power. I tryed 24v and 10A, but could'n se any differince.
> My glas bowl is around 4 litres/~1,5gal i think.
> Catode/anode is sitting aprox 5inc from itchothers- i tryed mohing both closer and longer distance, but could not see any chance.
> I have now cleanet the silver of 1 spoon, and 2 suger cups at the size of a grown mans fist, and i think all in all it has run for 12-15h. It won't get the silver inside thise cups, so i'm saveing them, and then i will flatten out with a hammer. I should allso mention that i'm turning the cups as they get strippet, course it seems that they only get strippet on the side facing the catode-or maybe i just needs more patien and it will get there
> I now have a bit more than 0,5inch gryish sediment on the botten, and the botten of my bowl is messuring 6-7inch in diameter.
> 
> Hope this all makes sense.
Click to expand...


TheGarbageManCan

Thanks for providing specs ,this will help me when I try my new power supply.Can you do one more favor and post what your black powder weighs after it is completely dried in grams and what it weighs after the melt.Stay tuned for some more videos and test results.



modtheworld44


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

Hello modtheworld and all others. 

First off, i most say that its my first time melting silver in this powder metal form- and lets just say that i need practise!

First i siphonet off most of the water, then poured the rest of it in a steel pot to waperize the remaining water of.
Then i scraped all powder out, and waighet it to 2,6g. 
Then after a very long batlel at melting (some powder got blown away, then i poured some borax over it with more succes) i ended up with 0,7g silver butten! 
So i would say that you can't use these numbers for anything!! But, it will sertenly lose waight before and after melt. 
Allso, next time i will gather more silver powder before melt. 
And last but not least, it will make your melting dish black, so this dish is for this only.

All in all, very good experience, but i need more practise.


----------



## MysticColby

yeah, I would expect it would only deplate from the side facing the cathode, and only at the nearest parts. Especially with the low conductivity of the water, electricity will flow most through the easiest path, which is overwhelmingly the shortest distance through water.
I'm impressed you're able to get 24v and 7A. there must be a lot of silver ions in the water to decrease the resistance. Maybe before harvesting it might be a good idea to add some NaOH to precipitate those ions as silver oxide? I would expect they would flow through the filter otherwise.
One suggestion: use a bent knife (or rod of some sort) as a cathode, then position it inside the cup (but not touching). This should make it so the shortest distance is through the inside of the cup, deplating it.

Did it make the borax black? I'm pretty sure that would indicate that there are oxides being trapped in the borax, meaning some of the base metal is being powderized


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

MysticColby said:


> yeah, I would expect it would only deplate from the side facing the cathode, and only at the nearest parts. Especially with the low conductivity of the water, electricity will flow most through the easiest path, which is overwhelmingly the shortest distance through water.
> I'm impressed you're able to get 24v and 7A. there must be a lot of silver ions in the water to decrease the resistance. Maybe before harvesting it might be a good idea to add some NaOH to precipitate those ions as silver oxide? I would expect they would flow through the filter otherwise.
> One suggestion: use a bent knife (or rod of some sort) as a cathode, then position it inside the cup (but not touching). This should make it so the shortest distance is through the inside of the cup, deplating it.
> 
> Did it make the borax black? I'm pretty sure that would indicate that there are oxides being trapped in the borax, meaning some of the base metal is being powderized



No all parts facing the catode gets strippet, and maybe the side not facing it more patience is givet. I'm trying that right now, course it would be nice if you could strip a full peice, on All sides, without turning as it gets strippet. I will get back with results on that. 

I might formulated my words wrong- my sitting on the charger is what i said in that other post, but my amp meter shows 0amp!

Do you think that ther's silver lost? I mean in that black borax in the melting dish? Maybe it's posible to do something with the "silver powder" before melting it?

I guess that without my losts, i would have ended up with~1g from 2,6g

I'm on a bad wifi with my Mobile only, thats why i dont insert pics, but i have a lot of pictures from my process.


----------



## chemguy

@ modtheworld44
In your system (positive connection is cathode and negative connection is anode?)
Please clear this doubt of mine.


----------



## modtheworld44

chemguy said:


> @ modtheworld44
> In your system (positive connection is cathode and negative connection is anode?)
> Please clear this doubt of mine.



chemguy

The Anode is positive and Cathode is negative.This is a electrolytic cell not a electrochemical cell if it were though you would have the connections right.If you reread the beginning of this thread you'll see thats what I stated.Hope this clears your doubt but if not let me know and I'll see if I can be of further assistance to you.
Thanks for joining in the conversation.



modtheworld44


----------



## MysticColby

it might/could work best to have the cathode be a stainless steel bowl, then you suspend the anode (silver-plated item) in the middle, turning it on it's side occasionally and such. I have a pretty good container I'll probably do when I get enough silver to do this. It's about 30 cm tall, 20 cm wide, and made out of some sort of stainless steel (it's an air-tight container for storing sugar or flour on your counter top - I'll research which alloy of stainless it is first). You would not get concave areas (like inside a cup), but you wouldn't have to rotate the piece half way through.

ah, so you're running 24v but reading 0 amps. that sounds more expected. water has such a high resistance that you won't get much current flow at this range of voltages. It also means there isn't a high amount of ions in the water.

the borax will have /some/ silver trapped in it. usually as small spheres. Two ways I know of to get them out:
-add the borax to the next batch. They will still be stuck in there, but not many new ones will be.
-dissolve the borax in dilute nitric acid. takes a long long time and is not worth the acid expense
I usually use the borax until it fills with oxides (gets gunky), then save it in a ziplock. When you get a lot of it, add some fresh borax and some fluorspar then heat all of it in a crucible to very high heat (maybe 1200ºC), stir with graphite rod, then pour it all into a cone mold. the fluorspar makes the borax more liquidy and there will be a button of silver at the bottom of the mold. I keep the button and toss the borax, accepting the small amount of silver lost (should be less than a gram)
getting back to the black: it's metal oxides trapped in the borax that turn it black.

Before adding NaOH to the liquid before harvesting, I recommend this test:
decant the liquid on top of the recovered silver through a filter, save the liquid.
to the liquid, add about a gram of NaOH, stir.
let it settle and observer for any precipitate (silver oxide should be a very visible black). If there is a significant amount, adding NaOH would be a worth-while thing to do. otherwise, it's not needed.
silver oxide can be melted just like other silver powders. it releases the oxygen as it heats up, giving you metallic silver

I'm guessing a major reason for your high loss is because of water. Also, if the is silver oxide being formed, the oxide part will add some weight. And blowing it away with a torch doesn't help either


----------



## chemguy

@modtheworld44 
I'm using a desktop SMPS as the power supply, and using 12VDC from it.
I'm getting the cloudy stuff where the ground terminal is connected and that region is being deplated I can see the shiny copper. 
the positive terminal is as it is. Am I doing anything wrong?


----------



## TheGarbageManCan

chemguy said:


> @modtheworld44
> I'm using a desktop SMPS as the power supply, and using 12VDC from it.
> I'm getting the cloudy stuff where the ground terminal is connected and that region is being deplated I can see the shiny copper.
> the positive terminal is as it is. Am I doing anything wrong?



Hello chemguy. 

Are you shure it is the +- is setup like you think? Course that sounds strange.
On my negative lead, theres some small bubling and its getting tarnished- maybe it just tarnish you see and think it's copper? I thougs so at one point to, then when i brushet the negative/catode with a brush i could see that wos only some kind of tarnish, and that it wos still silverplated underneth.

How dos your posetive/anode look like? Like as when your startet? How long have it run for?


----------



## birdflu78

Hello all,

I have been interested in a safe and economical way to deplate silver so hopefully together we can get this process to work. I've been following this thread and decided to do a test run. Here are my lab notes, for what it's worth:

I started with a container filled with 750mL tap water. For a power supply, all I have available is a PC power supply so I wired it up for 12V, 13 amps (the yellow wire/black wire combo). Two equal sized spoons were submerged 1/2 way into the water and across from each other in the container, about two inches apart.

Once power was supplied there was an immediate reaction. After running it for a while, along with the results other people are getting I also had a little bit of green moss accumulate on the anode. It appears the copper in the spoon is corroding as well.

I tried running two new spoons in distilled water and there was no reaction in the cell after 5 minutes. I dumped the water out and went back to using tap water.

I ran two spoons on the anode side then filtered the liquid. The spoons aren't completely deplated so there is still a little silver left on them. I got 1.1g of air-dried powder from the two spoons. It was dark gray in color with a couple of small green flakes. I didn't heat the powder to dry it.

Next - melting. I have to note that this was my first time melting anything so my results are probably not the best that could be attained. I melted in an unused dish with a propane torch. After I (finally!) got it melted I ended up with a BB that weighed 0.6g. The bottom of the BB had a small amount of copper on it. I tested the BB with Schwerter's solution and got a blood red color consistent with 925 silver. The solution also removed the copper on the surface.

During melting I did notice a lot of green flame coming out of the dish like I've seen from burning copper. Also, the borax in the dish is now black and I can't get it out of the dish. I had problems keeping the borax and dish hot with the propane torch. I need to get a Mapp torch.

Hopefully this info will help. I wonder how much of the base metal is coming off into the solution and if this is happening for anyone else. Maybe I need to use less volts and/or amps.

EDIT: I can confirm it's taking off base metal as well, at least with my setup. I scaled up to a one gallon container and using two new spoons I left it running overnight. When I looked at it today I had a large pile of green sediment at the bottom of the container. The anode spoon is stripped down to bare copper.

Birdflu78


----------



## MysticColby

If you're using a melting dish in open air, I'd recommend an oxy/fuel torch. propane and mapp will work, but as you found they are slow. oxy/acetylene, oxy/propane, etc. I think I've even heard of oxy/gasoline...


----------



## birdflu78

Thanks for the tip MysticColby. It was definitely a learning experience to melt for the first time. It took so long that I didn't know if I was doing something totally wrong. Since the silver powder was black and the borax was black, for a minute there when I melted I couldn't tell what was the silver and what was the borax! The process was frustrating at times but really cool to see the end result even if it is just a BB. I know it will get easier with more experience.

Is there anyone else working on this project? What kinds of results are you getting?

Thanks,
Birdflu78


----------



## mjgraham

Well just to try a test I have had these fuses caps sitting around for a while to big to eat up in acid so I put two ends in and ran 60V at about 1.4A for a while there were about 1mm apart and it did deplate one of them,so I decided to try with just a piece of 304ss as the neg electrode and just wired them to the positive been running at 60V 0.4A for a while they are de plating some of the plating actually peels off when rubbed on now, but this makes a lot of heat. I did start with distilled water and it does conduct some anyway aparently. At this power it comes off pretty quickly going to go a couple of hours and just see the area that goes away, although the water temp is getting about 160F only in a about 500ml water. Makes a lot of fluffy material for sure.
Just interesting.


----------



## butcher

mjgraham,
With these voltages no wonder the water heats up :lol:


----------



## mjgraham

That is true, while it did seem to work, I had some silver plated end caps from fuses, I decided to experiment too much and lost track. I had seen a video where some one was removing rust using washing soda in water and two pieces of metal, did try that and it worked so I tried adding s super small amount. Well we went from 0.5A at ~60V to 16.7A (max) at 33V , needless to say it got hot (550 watts of power) but made a mess of things, it might just be as with most thing slow and easy works best.


----------



## cheechQ

Thanks modtheworld44 for showing us your cell. I tryed it myself and this is what i got so far. Not sure how to upload video on here so here the link http://youtu.be/wn6mSyExcVc

Tell me what you think?

power is 12V/10amps battery charger
water/ tap

Thank you jimdoc


----------



## jimdoc

cheechQ said:


> Thanks modtheworld44 for showing us your cell. I tryed it myself and this is what i got so far. Not sure how to upload video on here so here the link [youtube]http://youtu.be/wn6mSyExcVc[/youtube]
> 
> Tell me what you think?
> 
> power is 12V/10amps battery charger
> water/ tap



You have to leave space around the link;

http://youtu.be/wn6mSyExcVc


----------



## Geo

how cool is that? now you need to find out if its silver chloride or silver oxide.in my opinion, it actually could be a combination of both.


----------



## modtheworld44

cheechQ said:


> Thanks modtheworld44 for showing us your cell. I tryed it myself and this is what i got so far. Not sure how to upload video on here so here the link http://youtu.be/wn6mSyExcVc
> 
> Tell me what you think?
> 
> power is 12V/10amps battery charger
> water/ tap
> 
> Thank you jimdoc



cheechQ

Done check your video comments.Now return the favor and tell me what you think.You can post what you think here or in your video comments.



modtheworld44


----------



## modtheworld44

Geo said:


> how cool is that? now you need to find out if its silver chloride or silver oxide.in my opinion, it actually could be a combination of both.



Geo

If he stirs it and makes it turn black then uses just a little hcl it will show that its not silver chloride and should have a purple color to it.

The batch of hcl/cl that you told me to heat for an hour,is now getting fully evaporated because the longer I left it cooking the more gold that dropped out.It's dropped way more than I ever expected to see and I haven't even finish getting the rest out of the AR portion yet.Its looking real good on these final results,I'll know for sure tomorrow when I finish up.



modtheworld44


----------



## cheechQ

yes i agree the prosses is slow, i am still new to all this so i have some questions.
1) how would you tell the difference between the two silver cloride & oxide?
2) when i started the cell today after work it powder on the bottom was a white color and as it was running the powder turn to a greyish color any ideas?

i really like it. it seem to be working so far. tomorrow i am going to try to test some of the powder. Mixed in with the powder looks to be very small silver looking pieces.
what would be the best way to test it.This is my second time at this the first time was in a small pyrex about 3" tall and the powder i got for that was a greyish color and more like clay then powder.
I took some of the powder and mixed it with muriatic acid and it dissolved it then i add a little water and its like it came back out but different looking.
I am going to do the test again but take pic this time well post tomorrow.

Hope the other cells your working on come out good

Thanks again for your input


----------



## Geo

bright light will cause silver chloride to turn dark, even black.


----------



## cheechQ

Here's a video of my cell after running for about 3 days and of some silver i got at the end of the video. The only thing is that it doesn't look like modtheworld44 cell.
I don't see the silver dopping out. The silver at the end of the video could have some silver from other melts. I'm going to order some new crucibles to melt it in to get 
the right weight. 
http://youtu.be/qUQylloaIQE


----------



## birdflu78

I took a break from this but now I'm back at it. There is almost an inch of silver chloride in the bottom of my one gallon pitcher after just a few pieces of silverware. There is also some green copper precipitate mixed in with it. Is it possible to remove the copper from my solids before or after converting the AgCl to silver powder? Looks like dissolving solids in nitric and cementing the silver is the best way but I'm not ready for that yet. Maybe I'll process until I get enough material to make the purchase of nitric worthwhile.

AgCl turns dark purple and eventually black from exposure to light. Wikipedia states that AgCl decomposes to elemental silver on exposure to light. AgCl + light -> Ag + Cl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_chloride

This is just a thought, but if this is true then is light exposure a viable method for AgCl conversion? Just place the material under a powerful light or out in the sunlight and let it convert?


----------



## butcher

I do not think light would be a viable method, light will convert some of the silver salt to silver, but much of the silver chloride would not get converted easily, as light would not penetrate down into the crystals or inside the silver crystals or to the silver chloride that is not exposed to light.

This works fine in photography but would work poorly in recovering and refining silver.


----------



## jmdlcar

Hi,

How is your process doing? Have you use Sterling Silver yet?

Jack


----------



## ericrm

to those who have tryed that cell many time .does it agressively/preferably attack the base metal?


----------



## kjt124

Just curious if anyone has reliable yield or purity data from this water cell yet. Is it looking like a viable option (economically)? Or would this be more of a hobby only setup? Does it look like there is any significant scale up potential?


----------



## emrouleau

I am a complete newbie to this, but it seems to be the least expensive non toxic way to refine silver. After filtered, how do you recover the silver? Is it just through melting the black nuggets that were in the filter in your video?


----------



## modtheworld44

emrouleau said:


> I am a complete newbie to this, but it seems to be the least expensive non toxic way to refine silver. After filtered, how do you recover the silver? Is it just through melting the black nuggets that were in the filter in your video?



emrouleau

This cell is for recovery of the silver from plate.The silver should still be run through nitric acid to refine it and make sure there's no base metal drag down.Then cementation should be done with copper bus bar or clean copper pipe.Then you can melt and sell it or refine it further using silver cell to grow silver crystals.



modtheworld44


----------



## solar_plasma

@modtheworld44

What pH is your tap water? ...or better, ask your water provider for a copy of the analysis. My experience, from the time I had some discus fishes, is, they are very kind and give it for free. If you get the copy, please tell us all the measured values.

I would like to give a try to find out, what exactly makes it work.


----------



## emrouleau

Has anyone used sulfuric acid instead of nitric? Do you, in your opinion, think it would work?


----------



## Geo

emrouleau said:


> Has anyone used sulfuric acid instead of nitric? Do you, in your opinion, think it would work?



there was a member that made videos of a cell that used copper sulfate as the electrolyte. in the video, it seemed to work great. the silver stays in solution and is cemented out in a corner away from direct line of the anode and cathode.


----------



## solar_plasma

> emrouleau wrote:Has anyone used sulfuric acid instead of nitric? Do you, in your opinion, think it would work?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there was a member that made videos of a cell that used copper sulfate as the electrolyte. in the video, it seemed to work great. the silver stays in solution and is cemented out in a corner away from direct line of the anode and cathode.
Click to expand...


CuSO4 cell works great, if you strip copper or stainless steel. Cu-Ni-Zn alloys tend to fastly foul the electrolyte, so either you only strip estimated 80% of the silver or you have to use masses of fresh CuSO4 to change the electrolyte.

I have run more than about 20 batches which each yielded 15-30 g silver, it allmost all was plated Cu-Ni-Zn stuff.


----------



## Geo

copper sulfate is sold here as root killer in septic systems. i believe you can get a 2 pound container of crystals for around $5.


----------



## solar_plasma

> i believe you can get a 2 pound container of crystals for around $5.



Not too bad, since the copper isn't lost.I guess I could run 5-10 of my batches with 1 kg, changing electrolyte after each batch. But I am not happy with all that Ni-Zn-solution. There I see the advantage in this H2O-cell, which obviously uses the same electrolyte over and over. I must say, it has catched my interest.

When somebody wrote, that there appears silver on the kathode and silveroxide at the anode, it reminded me to a lead accumulator. Have to read more about this making of colloidal silver thing before I join in. Has anybody advisable links at hand?


----------



## platedscrap

Anyone have any pics of recovered and melted silver from the h20 cell?


----------



## xtremefish

modtheworld44 said:


> resabed01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pure water (H2O) does not conduct electricity. It acts more like a insulator. That said, it's a poor insulator because it's such a good solvent. It's the impurities in water that allows it to conduct.
> If you set up a cell with water and you're getting current flow that's a indicator that there are salts or minerals in the water.
> 
> At least that's what I've been taught.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure theres something in the water that causes this process to work.I just don't know what it is,to many variables to try and figure out.I haven't tried this process with distilled water yet so in conclusion you're probably right ,but we'll know for sure when I do decide to try it with distilled water.
> Thanks for showing some interest in my thread.
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44
Click to expand...


Distilled water will likely still have impurities in it that allow conductivity. Pure water will not even freeze at expected temperatures. If your water freezes in your freezer it is not pure. There was an Airbus crash a while back that is expected to be caused by this, they are believed to have hit a storm over the North Atlantic in which the jet became the catalyst that caused the super pure water it was in contact with to freeze instantly, the result was computer system failure and death (sadly). Any city water most distilled water will still contain micro contaminates (mineral not biological) that allow water to be conductive. Also the dust that is on the cathode and anode when you put them in the water will contaminate it allowing for conductivity most probably. The rate of conductivity is the factor to be questioned as the purer the H2O is the slower it should deplate the Silver. It might be possible to add a flux that will help it deplate the gaps and bowls of spoons as well.


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

I make Colloidal Silver, in doing so I use a silver cathode rode and silver anode rod of the same length, weight and purity.

I used DI water only, it's about as pure as pure can get, no impurities.

I have explained why this reaction works in a previous post on this same thread, on page 2. Here is the short part of the answer:



> At the positively charged anode, an oxidation reaction occurs, generating oxygen gas and giving electrons to the anode to complete the circuit:
> 
> Anode (oxidation): 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 H+(aq) + 4e−
> 
> Because the the cathode is made of silver, and because the silver oxidizes, small particles of silver, colloidal, are freed up and enter into solution (DI Water).
> 
> Silver conducts electricity better than any of the other metals. So the more colloidal silver particles in the water, the better the water conducts electricity and the faster the oxidation/reaction takes place, the more silver in solution etc etc etc.
> 
> When making colloidal silver, it starts very slow, towards the end it speeds up considerably. I have watched this many times, I only use distilled water,I have made a lot of colloidal and ionic silver solutions.



Scott


----------



## Geo

hey Scott, is that for medicinal purposes?


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

Geo said:


> hey Scott, is that for medicinal purposes?



Yes, medicinal, I also put it in my chickens water, I have a pet crow I give it to as well, I haven't taken any antibiotics for years. It's one of the only things known to definitely kill MRSA, and the list goes on and on and on. There is a reason people have used silver in everything from surgery instruments, to just dropping a silver coin in milk before refrigerators.

But yes, medicinal!

Scott


----------



## solar_plasma

> It's one of the only things known to definitely kill MRSA,



Some month ago I read about a hospital in Germany that changed all doorknobs to copper, because MRSA dies after about 15 minutes if applied to copper metal.


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

solar_plasma said:


> It's one of the only things known to definitely kill MRSA,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some month ago I read about a hospital in Germany that changed all doorknobs to copper, because MRSA dies after about 15 minutes if applied to copper metal.
Click to expand...


That's right, Copper and Silver both have antimicrobial properties.

Scott


----------



## solar_plasma

Have to write this into my post industrial end time survival guide :lol: I am frightened, my descendants will need such knowledge.

edit: somewhat paradox to use "end time" and "survival" in one sentence, though. But hope is the last thing to die.


----------



## Geo

how much silver is safe to ingest?


----------



## steyr223

Me first me first :lol: 
Hey guys
Geos question definitly needs answering
And also how much copper is safe for ingestion

I know someone that does the silver thing I forget how it works but they swear by it

Has anyone heard the book called
The 1 minute cure its about drinking 
30% h202 its revered to have cured everything

(DO not try this at home I was told it 
will kill you if not done properly)

But this is for another post (hint hint)

Thanks steyr223


----------



## Geo

i found this website SilverFacts.com - Silver safety . according to the information provided there, i would be safe to consume 0.625 mg's per day. other information details a disorder called Argyria which irreversibly turns your skin blue. of coarse, the cases presented were people that consumed as much as 6g - 20g of silver over a period of years. there is no evidence that silver consumption causes cancer but excess silver intake can damage nerve cells along the spinal column.

according to the formula, i would need the 10 ppm solution. now, is the some way to ensure that amount in solution or should i buy it from a health food store?


----------



## NobleMetalWorks

Geo said:


> i found this website http://www.silverfacts.com/safety.html . according to the information provided there, i would be safe to consume 0.625 mg's per day. other information details a disorder called Argyria which irreversibly turns your skin blue. of coarse, the cases presented were people that consumed as much as 6g - 20g of silver over a period of years. there is no evidence that silver consumption causes cancer but excess silver intake can damage nerve cells along the spinal column.
> 
> according to the formula, i would need the 10 ppm solution. now, is the some way to ensure that amount in solution or should i buy it from a health food store?



The people who turn blue, or the disorder called Argyria, those particular people are taking silver in the wrong form, made in the wrong way, and when it makes it to the skin because of the mass doses they are taking it exposes just like silver in film would. There is Ionic and Colloidal, each has their own applications. If you drink the wrong form, it can cause stomach acts.

I have never personally heard of silver causing nerve damage, but there is so little research done on the medicinal properties of silver in the United States. Just recently, and this really rubbed me the wrong way, there was an article in the BBC news that stated or lead the reader to believe that silver, added to antibiotics, made the antibiotics work 10-1000 times better. Fact is it's probably strictly the silver, and not the interaction with antibiotics, that are effective.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22967727

My own personal belief is that this type of information has been suppressed in the US because of the negative impact it would have on the bottom line profit of big pharma. I believe it's also the reason the FDA will not allow anyone to make any health claims about colloidal silver, or allow it to be sold as a remedy in any established retail business. The other problem is very few people are making it correctly, so there are varying results. To make colloidal silver correctly is not as easy as people might lead you to believe, you want the PPM to be 10-20, make 10, 15 and 20 for different applications.

You are probably not going to find it in any health food stores, but if you would like, you can message me and I'll talk with you about it.

Scott


----------



## butcher

I do not use colloidal silver often, as we are normally healthy, but do use it every now and then.

I made a power supply circuit using a 555 timer integrated circuit, the circuit in a pulsed width modulated power supply.

I also use distilled water and pure silver anode and cathode electrodes, for starting the first batch I hold the anode and cathode close to each other to get some silver into solution and lower the water resistance, store the colloidal silver out of light, you really do not use much silver and a small silver cell with anode and cathode could last you a lifetime.


----------



## Woodworker1997

Butcher, 

would two .999 coins do the job?

Derek.


----------



## butcher

You can flatten with a flat clean hammer and anvil, cut the .999 silver coin into two long strips of metal (cut in circular pattern and straighten them back out, to make the anode and cathode, clean the surface off well,sanding or scrapping away the outer layer of silver, clean electrodes well and dry after making your solution and store them in a plastic bag so they will be clean the next time you make a batch, some people use 9 volt battery's (sometimes two in series) for the power supply. if you would like the pulse width modulated 555 timer circuit and are handy with electronics I could dig it up, it has been many years since I studied colloidal silver, but when I did pulse width plating was supposed to be the best method for making colloidal silver, the colloidal silver should look clear, after storing the colloidal silver I make, using the same glass for many years, the glass I use has become a mirror.


----------



## solar_plasma

Just read, also colloidal silver are nano-particles(?). Nano-particles are suspect to me. No doubt it works for many purposes, but until now I never met any medicine without side effects,- no pain, no gain. I am afraid nano technology will be our new asbestos.

On the other side, really good to know, how to make desinfection agents and bactericidal wound dressings only using simple materials, which are accessable also under conditions of disasters, when you can't get other medical help and supply anymore.


----------



## Harold_V

steyr223 said:


> I was at a party ,one of the guys needed a spoon to mix up some methamphetamine for the purpose
> of injecting



Have you lost your mind? What on earth prompts you to post such garbage here?
May I suggest you pick your friends with more discrimination?

*I have no use for druggies.* Given the opportunity, I'd have them all put to death.

No, I'm not joking. The filthy bastards have ruined way too many lives. 

Harold

The post in which the quote appears has been reported as having no place on this board. I agree. Never again will I tolerate a post that promotes, in any way, the use of drugs. I am going to leave this one, as without it my comments would have no meaning. 

*IF READERS HOPE TO REMAIN ON THIS BOARD, DO NOT POST ON TOPICS THAT ARE ILLEGAL. DO NOT POST ON POLITICS. DO NOT POST ON RELIGION. DO NOT USE BAD LANGUAGE. DO NOT FLAME. BE MANNERALY, EVEN WHEN YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH COMMENTS MADE.*

EDIT:
Note that the post in question has since been deleted by another moderator.


----------



## ilikesilver

way to go Harold, i back you 100 percent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## steyr223

O my God I just read this
I am truly sorry Harold or anyone I might
Have offended it was a decision I made from
a scientific point of view as being able to spread info
That most people would never have access to

For the record I would back your comment on killing
all the drugs, the world would be better off with an actual
Cure instead of spending billions of dollars for only a mask
Of the symptoms with mostely worst side effects

I in no way indorse any drug use prescription or illegal
every drug made that a psychiatrist prescribes
Causes irreversible kidney and brain damage 
with in 6 months 
Thank God my parents were in my business they saw what
Ritalin did to me and.stopped treatment after 2 weeks


----------



## steyr223

Sorry I reached the bottom of the window

But yes Harold I have had many friends die
From drug use I agree 100%
Unfortunately for us the government doesn't

My girl just had her son 7 years old diagnosed
With I forget the medical term but it is for
Overactive internet use
they prescribed him some.psychiatric drugs

Not my place but I made it my place
I tore the prescription up and told her if I ever see
any drugs for him or hear of him taking them
I would break both her.arms
anyways I do apologize steyr223 rob


----------



## cheechQ

Hi been running this cell on and off for a week A couple of hours a day. This is about my third time trying this The first two times I got Silver chloride this time I have crystals growing on the anode and the cathode after I turned it off for the night and it's been sitting for two days. I'm using a 12 V battery charger and the water mixture was about quarter distilled water and three quarters tapwater. Any suggestions on why this happened


----------



## butcher

cheechQ,

I would need more details of what you are trying to do, to give a better answer.

It looks like you are using a spoon?
if you are trying to make colloidal silver you need pure silver, and distilled water, not a spoon which at best would be sterling silver (copper would contaminate the colloidal silver which would make it poisonous), you also would not want to use tap water, too many minerals or things like chlorine or other water treatment chemicals.

Looks like you are plating out silver...

Without more details of what it is you are trying to do, all I can do is guess by what you stated and what I can gather from the picture...


----------



## cheechQ

I'm using this process to pull off silver from Silver plated silverware. I have done this and recovered silver from my first two tries the third try is just giving me crystals . The first two tries was straight tap water. The third try I started with distilled water and it wasn't working so I empty out three quarters of it and added tap water. And this is what I got.


----------



## bmgold2

butcher said:


> You can flatten with a flat clean hammer and anvil, cut the .999 silver coin into two long strips of metal (cut in circular pattern and straighten them back out, to make the anode and cathode, clean the surface off well,sanding or scrapping away the outer layer of silver, clean electrodes well and dry after making your solution and store them in a plastic bag so they will be clean the next time you make a batch, some people use 9 volt battery's (sometimes two in series) for the power supply. if you would like the pulse width modulated 555 timer circuit and are handy with electronics I could dig it up, it has been many years since I studied colloidal silver, but when I did pulse width plating was supposed to be the best method for making colloidal silver, the colloidal silver should look clear, after storing the colloidal silver I make, using the same glass for many years, the glass I use has become a mirror.



I'd like to see that circuit. I tried colloidal silver using a generator I bought that turned out to be just 2 silver wires hooked to a single 9 volt battey. That made a cloudy, solution with a very metalic taste.


----------



## modtheworld44

cheechQ said:


> I'm using this process to pull off silver from Silver plated silverware. I have done this and recovered silver from my first two tries the third try is just giving me crystals . The first two tries was straight tap water. The third try I started with distilled water and it wasn't working so I empty out three quarters of it and added tap water. And this is what I got.



cheechQ

There's nothing wrong with your setup.When you first start your cell you generate colloidal silver hence the slow color change in solution.The growth is from where the base metals are cementing it back out.If you were to take a small sample of the solution and filter it absolutely clear,then let it sit in a sealed jar it will change to a pink then brown color in a day or two.Thats why I say to filter solution and reuse so you don't lose silver.Also if by chance you filter it so you can store the solution for use later,make sure to store it in a sealed container.If you want to get the colloidal silver back,just let the water evaporate off and the silver will drop out.Hope this helps.

P.S. I'm glad to see you still using it.What was your yields like?


----------



## butcher

cheechQ,
Thanks for giving us a little more details to go on, water is not the best electrolyte, although with enough impurity's it will conduct electricity and will dissolve some metal ions in solution, the water itself can be split into H and OH creating more of an environment for becoming an electrolyte as Hydrogen or oxygen escape the solution could become somewhat caustic holding the metal cation ions in solution easier in with the hydroxide anions in solution.

What you are trying to do will not work that well, both metals will be forced to dissolve at the anode by the force of electrolysis from the power supply pulling electrons from the anode metal atoms t=freeing the metal as ions in solution in the electrolyte, these metal cations will migrate to the cathode area where they are reduced gaining electrons at the cathode and plating out of solution as metal atoms, basically you will not separate the copper silver and other metals. the anode will oxidize all of the metals in the spoon and they will reduce at the cathode.

It will work to break down the metals from a solid bar to more of a metal powder but not separate them.

There is no easy or proven method to do what you are trying to do, there have been several thoughts on trying to find a good electrolyte, or a good method, but none proven to be a good solution to the problem, the problem of separation of metals and an effective way to recover the silver, I have tried several electrolytes with some fair results at making a mixed metal sludge that could be further processed to recover the silver from, but nothing I would call a good method yet.


To be effective a better electrolyte may work, like a concentrated sulfuric acid cell where the base metal copper would not be as apt to dissolve into solution, a 98% H2SO4 acid with a very small amount of HNO3 (5% of electrolyte) may work, I have read where they used this to refinish silver plating to remove silver from the plated articles, (GSP has also commented on this deplating method several times), when they used this method to remove the silver plate they did not recover the silver as they were only interested in removing the silver to re-plate the item, I never tried it but I believe it may work as a method in recovery of silver from the de-plated item, my belief is if run long enough I believe much of the silver should fall out as cathode mud or plate out of solution, although the electrolyte would most likely hold a lot of silver sulfate in the concentrated solution, which if solution was diluted (by pouring concentrated H2SO4 silver sulfate solution into water for safety reasons) the silver sulfate would be less soluble, and then the remaining silver, could be removed from solution as chlorides by adding NaCl to form insoluble silver chloride.
my plan is to someday experiment with it, but as for now I can only guess if it would work or not.

bmgold2,
What you are looking for is a 555 timer circuit with a 50% duty cycle pulse width modulated circuit, you can search for schematics on this circuit until you find one you like, here are a couple of tutorials that can help get you started, the 555 timer IC (integrated circuit) is a great circuit you can build a lot of different things by changing a few external components, it is a very use circuit to learn, you can build hundreds of very useful things from this little chip.
You can find tons of information and circuits using the 555 timers IC.
Here are a couple of tutorials which can help you learn to build a modulated 50% duty cycle power supply.


Williamson-labs.com





http://www.electronics.dit.ie/staff/mtully/555%20folder/555%20timer.htm


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## solar_plasma

Today I tried this H2O-cell with tap water at 24V and 0,3A, medium hardness, pH7,5, some chlorides, some sulfate, very low nitrate. Got a white cloud from the graphite cathode. The white powder turned violet-gray, typical for AgCl, in the filter. The pH raised immediately to 8,5. Gas production at the cathode, no odor, I guess H2. At the silver plated german silver anode, no gas occurred, maybe it turned a little darker. Some black particles floated around in the electrolyte.

My first guess would be, that nascent state oxygen at the cathode oxidizes any metal it meets to oxides. Since they aren't soluble, they are out of the system. The raising of the pH may be a matter of lost H2 in the air and lost Cl- to AgCl, so the traces of sodium chloride in the water form some NaOH until no chloride is left in solution. So in my theory the solids are a blend of AgCl, traces of Ag2SO4 and AgNO3 (which both cement back), silver oxides and elemental silver that flakes of mechanically or wanders caught in instable complex hydroxy clusters over to the cathode. As soon as the german silver is exposed I would expect copper oxide, nickel oxide and zinc oxide. If this is true, this method works, because it is NOT selective, not even to the base metals. The nascent state oxygen just catches the next metal atom it mets.

Please comment.


----------



## GotTheBug

You all just gave me a few ideas for the latest build. Hoping to deplate pm's in general, and using the general idea from DallasGoldBug on this post:









Muradic acid w/Carbon electrodes Hydrogen/Chlorine process


Hello all, Forgive me if this process has been discussed previously. I did a search on the topic but didn't see anything posted. For the past 6 months I have been using Muradic Acid as an electrolyte in a vertical column with carbon rods/disks as electrodes, Cathode at the bottom and anode at...




goldrefiningforum.com





Also wondering where Dallas is, haven't seen him post in some time.

I'll throw in one detail and ask for you thoughts: I'm going to be using 9v DC at high amperage, like 200 amps. Thoughts?


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## solar_plasma

Very interesting: first I got AgCl, after filtering and another 30 min I got what looks like fairly pure (light gray) silver cement, now, after filtering again and another 30min electrolysis I get a brown powder like heavily copper contaminated silver.


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## solar_plasma

I have no solid idea how this works, but it solves the biggest problem, the fouling of conventional electrolytes. Until now, my best advice is just to put a hand full flatware pieces loosely into a big beaker, stick one longer piece like a fork or spoon into it to have a contact and hang a thick graphite cathode into the water from above, some cm from the flatware, use 24V, let it sit (maybe over night)/filter/decant the electrolyte after 30-45min of electrolysis.

modtheworld44, thank you for sharing this ingenious method!!!


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## solar_plasma

I read some hours about everything I could find that could be part of the explanation. And I got some ideas in my simple mind:

Cathode: nascent hydrogen
Anode: nascent oxygen oxidizes the silver/anodizing silver => Ag2O (brown) (maybe also hydroxo/oxo/aqua complexes, which I hardly understand)

Ag2O + 2 H nasc => 2 Ag + H20

The formed Ag is freshly reduced/cemented at typically light gray. Ag is more catalytic to make Hnasc molecular again than copper, - though I don't understand enough to decide if this matters in any way. Iron is even more catalytic to Hnasc than silver, so it would be interesting to see, if there is any difference between graphite and steel cathodes. If so, graphite should work better.

This theory could eventually be proven by altering plus down/minus up to minus down/plus up in a vertical electrode setup. The second one should work better: Minus (cathode) down would let the newly formed H nasc be led up to the anode with its newly formed brown Ag2O and reduce it to light gray silver.

Since silver also cements on the base metals in the anode, when the electricity is shut down, there must be some water soluble silver compound. Here I think some silver hydroxo/oxo/aqua complexes might play a major role.

Can anyone tell, if at least parts of this explanation sound plausible?


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## solar_plasma

While I looked at this diagram: http://www.leifiphysik.de/sites/default/files/medien/elektrolyse01_energiespeich_gru.gif
I thought of this OH-, which wanders towards the anode. Maybe this is forming a complex water soluble compound with Ag2O? Fact is, there is no visible gas production at the anode. Fact is, when H2 bubbles happily at the cathode, there must be some OH- and they have to go towards the anode - what do they do there? - not forming oxygen gas at least. Okay, Ag2O....BUT what's going on with the H of OH-? I think I'll have to find some possible candidates in the books half educated me mostly do not understand...  ...at least only half of it.


----------



## solar_plasma

> BUT what's going on with the H of OH-?



okay, could just be H2O


----------



## solar_plasma

Ag2O forms Ag(OH)2- with water, which is slightly soluble. This might cement on the base metals or/and be reduced by Hnasc, - very much like reducing silver oxide with H2O2.

*But concentrating on the most simple possibility, this should be an explanation: anodic oxidation of Ag to Ag2O, which dissolves and cements when the cell is off overnight, more dissolves and cements again.*


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## solar_plasma

One more wild guess: Other metals like Cu, Zn and Ni might be passivated by their oxides or at least their oxides might stay on the surface of the anode or build soluble comlexes,if they are amphoteric and soluble at pH8,5 (Zn).

Need to do more experiments...


----------



## butcher

Lets bust up a compound of water, forcing the water compound to split.
We will use an external force, a battery, and give a charge to a pair of electrodes, sitting in the jar of water.

We will bust up this water compound into it ionic form, pushing or pulling these ions apart into the Cations and Anions and separating them in this jar (cell).

We give charges to the electrodes, with our battery or power source, and with its external circuit the ability to move electrons, this battery having the ability to take electrons from the anode electrode (making it electron poor) and give electrons to the cathode (making it electron rich), thus giving these electrodes a charge, anode positively charged, and cathode negatively charged.
Anode positively charged (electron poor).
Cathode negatively charged (electron rich).

Here we will move electrons in this complete circuit, externally moving electrons through electrodes wire and battery (which is actually using a chemical reaction inside to move electrons chemically, or electro-chemically through it cells), and through our cell moving electrons electro-chemically as the ions are oxidized (gain of electron) and reduced (loss of electrons).

OK lest bust up some compound to ions, separating them into charged ions,
H2O we will split, 
Into Positively charged Anions (H+) (missing electrons, and wanting some electrons to fill its atomic shell),
And negatively charged Cations (OH-) (with an excess of electrons willing to share some of its profit)

(H2O) split --> H+ + OH-

Now lets get busy and check out what is going on in our jar (cell)
Opposites attract like repels
The positively charged Cation (H+) being attracted towards the Negatively charged cathode electrode.
The negatively charged Anions (OH-) being attracted towards the positively charged anode.
OK things are beginning to get busy in there several things are beginning to happen at once, lots of oxidation and reduction going on, on both sides of this cell (elections moving in the external circuit), electrons being transferred all over the place, wow lets slow down and just look at portions of the cell at a time, too much commotion going on to keep up with everything going on at once.

Reaction at the positively anode, (an oxidation reaction is taking place) with the oxidation of water 2 H2O (l) --> O2 (g) + 4H+ (aq) +4e-
Electrode potential E0 (oxidation) = -1.23 volts

Water giving up electrons (oxidation) to the electron poor anode electrode of our cell, which of course our battery takes away, as these electrons travel through the wire (well we will not confuse ourselves more by looking at the reactions going on inside our battery (cells) power supply at this time), and giving those electrons to the cathode
At the anode + electrode, the anode wants electrons (the battery took his and made him electron poor, and since we spit this water and the Hydroxide (OH-) anions were attracted to the anode electrode.
The oxidation of water the anode is taking electrons from our water.
---------------------------------------

On the other side of the cell another reaction is taking place.
Here a reaction at the negatively charged electrode (rich in electrons), there is an reduction reaction going on (electrons being given), e- being given to the H+ Cations, to form the hydrogen gas, hydrogen being reduced (hydrogen Cations gaining electrons, from the electron rich cathode) to form atoms of hydrogen with a full shell of electrons, are happy to forms H2 gas and escape from or cell, (the half reaction balanced with acid), reduction at the cathode,
2H+ + 2e- --> H2 (g)
Electrode potential E0 (reduction) = 0.00 volts

Now lets balance with the acid/base reactions.
Anode oxidation'
4OH- (aq) --> O2 (g) + 2H2O (l) 4e-
Oxygen gas here is escaping our cell.

Cathode reduction,
2H2O (l) + 2e- --> H2 (g) + 2OH- (aq)

Combining these half reactions we get.
2H2O (l) --> 2H2 (g) + O2 (g)

So basically we used an externally forced electron movement to split water into its gases hydrogen and oxygen, now we just have to be careful these gases do not mix and want to make a big boom back into water; maybe if we carefully control that reaction we can make a torch.

now if we start using metal that will oxidize at the anode, and change our electrolyte (acidic or basic) we can begin to get more reactions going on in this cell, which sets up a whole lot more for us to consider, as these electrons are transferred in the electro-chemical reactions of our cell...

That sets up whole lot more goings on to discuss.
and as these react not only electro-chemically but also with acid and base reactions in the cell.


----------



## solar_plasma

In the same setup I will find out, if

a zinc anode will be broken down, only oxidize or dissolve (visible to the eye, measuring the change of conductivity, pH, ORP)
a copper anode will be broken down, only oxidize or dissolve (visible to the eye, measuring the change of conductivity, pH, ORP)
there is any difference between using tap water and distilled water (tap water might contain useful electrolytes and/or buffers)
there is any change in pH after cementing overnight

I believe copper will only oxidize to non-soluble CuO and be passivated, zinc will dissolve since it is amphoteric and build Zn(OH)3- at pH8,5 of the running cell. My tap water was pH7,5 and went up to 8,5 after running the cell, probably also due to the reaction of Ag2O to Ag(OH)2-, so if all is cemented, the pH should go a little down again, though not down to 7,5. edit: maybe not, because while Ag leaves the solution, some other metal, probably zinc might dissolve.

I hope I have some spare time to check those questions today.

I think this could be the absolutely best treatment of especially the problem child silver plated german silver (Cu-Ni-Zn) with easy reusing and if necessary, easily regenerated electrolyte.


----------



## solar_plasma

> there is any change in pH after cementing overnight



The pH was around 10 now!
clear filtrate gave a little AgCl with HCl (white precipitate/darkened violet in light)
This time it didn't cement, but I got only Ag2O (dissolves clear colourless in HNO3, pecipitates with chloride/with H2O2 the brown Ag2O reduced to light gray Ag)
No sign for copper/nickel contamination. I could not exclude zinc contamination, yet.
Thick black, in parts green-blue crusts on the anode flatware.

for more I hadn't the time, busy day


----------



## modtheworld44

solar_plasma said:


> there is any change in pH after cementing overnight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pH was around 10 now!
> clear filtrate gave a little AgCl with HCl (white precipitate/darkened violet in light)
> This time it didn't cement, but I got only Ag2O (dissolves clear colourless in HNO3, pecipitates with chloride/with H2O2 the brown Ag2O reduced to light gray Ag)
> No sign for copper/nickel contamination. I could not exclude zinc contamination, yet.
> Thick black, in parts green-blue crusts on the anode flatware.
> 
> for more I hadn't the time, busy day
Click to expand...



solar_plasma

Thank you for giving your time to research and find out for your self,that my cell does have great potential.Yes you are correct in your finding so far about the three types of silver and I assume that you haven't set aside a sample of the filtered solution,so you can find the fourth state of silver it produces(colloidal silver).To reclaim that you have to let it naturally evaporate and it will drop out on it's own.You really should try it with silverplated flatware on the anode and cathode.The cathode side will passivate it's self.


butcher

Please build your self a small scale cell,so that you can watch all the different cycles it goes through,it would help you to better explain it.You make great posts all the time,but it is my opinion that solar_plasma has a better grasp and understanding of my cell simply because he has seen what is hard for me too put into words.I mean NO disrespect to you or your intelligence,because believe it or not it is you who I always read on this forum no matter what.



modtheworld44


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## solar_plasma

In the clear colorless liquid is some Ag(OH)2- dissolved and can be precipitated as chloride. This I can confirm. I am pretty sure, there also should be dissolved zinc, which I have to check. If there is any greater deal of colloidal silver it should react with HNO3 and can be tested by choride precipitation. I will check this, too.

I believe it should be avoided to let the pH go much higher than 10, because the copper and nickel oxides might form soluble hydrates, - in concentrated alkali hydroxides at least they probably do.

Yeah, Butcher you should really join those experiments, since you have a better understanding of electro chemistry than most of us and you know how to explain it in a way everybody can follow.


----------



## solar_plasma

I believe the reason, why only the Ag2O is floating around while the copper and nickel oxides cling to the flatware is, that only Ag2O is a victim of an equilibrium reaction from solid to soluble and back again.

Ag2O + H2O <=> 2 AgOH 

AgOH + OH- <=> Ag(OH)2-


----------



## butcher

modtheworld44,
I wish I had the time to build one of this type of cells, (life has gotten me very busy just trying to keep my head above water), I would like to build one, so I could ponder over what may be happening inside, I have built and run many different types of cells, and just love trying to figure out what is going on, many times it is just a guessing game, even using educated guesses, as during operation of many cells things can change during their operation, pH can play a big role, many time it changes during operation as hydrogen gas can easily leave the cell, hydrogen from acid or even the water involved , pH can also be slightly different on each side of the cell as the anion and cations are separated.

I have not been able to comment on this cell, as I have not had time to play with it, but I thought I might add a little to this discussion where I may be able to, maybe later when I get a more little free time I can build one and see what you guys are discussing.


----------



## solar_plasma

> No sign for copper/nickel contamination. I could not exclude zinc contamination, yet.



I had reduced a bigger part of the Ag2O with H2O2 and did let it sit for a day in HCl. The solution above became slightly green, so some copper/nickel contaminants have been found, not much.

 Edit: Later in another thread one of the moderators told, that H2O2 is no good way, too vigorous - danger! After my first melt I saw that the mud needs to get refined anyway, so better way is to dissolve and cement or dissolve and go one of the chloride routes. Another option is using an oxidizing flux and melt directly, but I don't know the resulting purity and how much loss it will cause. But I tried and it works, too.


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## solar_plasma

It has been asked, if the amperage will sink. It sinks only until all chloride is precipitated. Thereafter, it is pretty constant. So the amperage cannot be used as an indication for when then process is finished similarly to the sulfuric gold stripping cell. This observation is plausible since this cell works by anodizing, which is an oxidizing of the anode surface and not a transport of metal cations from anode to cathode (acidic) or from cathode to anode (base).

The firstly exposed Cu-Ni-Zn areas get copper plated. Later they become black. You can clearly see, where silver is not stripped yet, - those areas are still light in color, white, gray or silver.


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## solar_plasma

If anyone wants to help and participate in this journey, you could help me to find the unanswered questions in this thread and re-post them. This thread has grown big and I believe I understand most of the mechanics of this process, now. It would also help to plan the next experiments.


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## solar_plasma

I feel the need to make clear, this process is not producing colloidal silver, but Ag2O. Using tab water, DC and impure anodes are the three things they avoid, when they want to make colloidal silver as you can see in the video link on one of the first pages.

Thank you once again, modtheworld44!! This IS the AP equivalent to recovery of silver from silver plate! It is cheap, reusable, minimizing waste and pretty safe.


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## solar_plasma

The question has been raised, how to speed up the process. Since voltage has not to be hold down to gain highest purity, you can just use 24V. Probably you could use more to get a higher amperage, but I would not advise this, since up to 25V are not harmful. You don't want to cling at high DC till you're dead or act as the electrolyte and poison yourself from the inside.


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## solar_plasma

I stripped a silver plated dinner tray about 60cm x 40cm, which once has had 180g silver according to the hallmarks. The powder is still a little wet after several days of drying, but it is weighing 130g now. 1/4 is still untouched, because a hydrogen bubble had built up under the electrolysis. This was done in a relatively short time, some hours not more.

When I bought the tray, it was in a bad condition, worn, dented, scratched and randomly oxidized. So, I was glad to find this method to strip it, without needing to cut it into a smaller pieces. It seems, when I am done with the stripping, it can be cleaned, polished and used again, maybe even get a new silver plating. For now, I am glad I could get the silver without destroying this nice tray, which might be 50-60 years old.


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## solar_plasma

update: stripping the last silver from the tray the amperage actually is going down and of course the stripping slows down
edit: after clean the tray, the amperage goes up again / partly also silver foils loosen from the tray / there are red spots, that look like copper plated / blue solid particles are formed here and there / looks like a lot of different side reactions are going on


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## solar_plasma

According to my text research a pH of about 10, like I got with my tap water under electrolysis is quite interesting, because all possibly involved oxides and hydroxides of copper, nickel and zinc have a solubility beneath 10mg/L:

Abb.2.3 http://www.lanuv.nrw.de/wasser/abwasser/forschung/pdf/Abschlussberichtschwermetallabwasser.pdf

But also Ag2O and AgOH reaches its lowest solubility at pH10 and above, 0,0001 mol/l, maybe 20mg/l:

http://www.researchgate.net/post/At_what_pH_does_silver_hydroxide_formation_take_place

I have collected about 200g sludge now (estimated dry weight).

The composition of the filter sludge becomes more and more interesting. I know (more or less), how to make a classic quantitative analysis of the cations, but if anyone has some good ideas, how this could be done with the least effort in this special case, please let me know. Thereafter, I would like to find out, how much of the sludge is elemental silver and how much is oxygen and hydrogen. Since all oxygen is consumed at the cathode, it has to go somewhere. Heating would decompose those silver chalcogenides, so I could weigh it before and after and collect the gasses for further examination. Any ideas are welcome.

The filtrate is absolutely water clear. I would like to know, what is left in it, when all silver traces are precipitated by adding HCl to neutral. Probably not much that hasn't been in it before. Maybe I could compare the conductivity with tap water to find out.

edit: page 6 and 7 seem to give a quite good explanation and some answers http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf

Under alkali condition I see some parallels to the silver oxide battery, only we are both charging and discharging the "battery" in his setup. I have come to believe, that colloidal silver only can form in very pure distilled water. In most tap waters NaCl will be one of the major electrolytes, which is responsible for the high pH in this setup.


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## solar_plasma

> edit: page 6 and 7 seem to give a quite good explanation and some answers http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf



"Review of fundamental investigations of silver oxide electrodes" Must Read! 

Well, the secret of the tab water silver stripping cell is, it is a badly constructed silver _battery_ (as a _stripping cell_ perfect) going to be charged and eventually discharged and they knew it already in 1967 :lol: 

Left over is the question, why the base metals do not contaminate the silver too much. I guess they get passivated to some degree...if they do anything at all.


----------



## solar_plasma

Washing the brown-gray-black mud with HCl leaves gray, heavy powder, obviously metallic silver. The solution gets slightly green like copper or/nickel. Gas production occurs. Liquid is clear, no AgCl visible! :shock: 
edit: finally found silver chloride, there is gray (probably) elemental silver AND powder with a violet tone

When the mud is put in HNO3 instead of HCl, it dissolves, as expected, completely.


.All I read and all I saw in my experiments is confusing me right now. It makes only sense to me, if the metallic silver is made by reduction - maybe caused by the dissolution of the contaminants. Or I have to start from the beginning again.

It works very well and I hope that some more brains will try to break that nut. Only when we are sure about the important reactions in this process, we can find out how to optimize it even more.


----------



## solar_plasma

Today I tried this with pure zinc electrodes in one jar and copper in another. Zinc forms a white powder, cloudy, similar to zinc hydroxide or finest oxdide. Copper forms a light blue powder similar to copper hydroxide. When I added pure 0.1M AgNO3 solution, it became a brown precipitate in both electrolytes.

Again gas only on one of the electrodes. Precipitate at the other.


----------



## butcher

I think I would try an experiment with these three individual metals all connected to the anode, suspended separately in the same distance from the cathode, just to try and see what maybe happening, if one metal is consumed before another, if one metal to plates to another, if gasses form predominantly on one metal easier than another...

Another experiment similar to the above, using only a copper and a silver anode, without zinc (which unlike copper or silver can displace hydrogen).


----------



## solar_plasma

Good idea! I'll try that.

Until now there never occurred any visible gas production at the anode. Only solids built. There should be oxygen after all chlorine is removed, but it obviously gets bound by some or all of the involved metals.
At the cathode always gas production visible, with inert cathode, copper cathode or zinc cathode. This should be H2 though I haven't tested.


----------



## solar_plasma

I have left the washed silver in HCl, now it has become a homogenous slightly gray, almost white powder. Would fine elemental silver powder convert to AgCl after longer exposure?

I have a feeling of, that it could be both, very light gray silver blended with AgCl. I will test with sunlight later.


----------



## butcher

I suspect pH will be different in the reactions of only silver or copper in a cell, compared to a cell, which involves zinc, as zinc, will displace hydrogen of the electolye chemically (possibly making the electrolyte more leaning towards becoming a hydroxide).

Current, which is used, will also play a role on the pH of the solution, as well as the pH which can also change with the time the cell is operated as gases leave the solution…

Water can act as acid or a base, when we split water with electrolysis; we are in effect splitting acid (hydrogen) and the base (Hydroxide), what gases leave the cell can also effect the cells electrolyte or pH.

I can see where just by connecting two or more dissimilar metals in an electrolyte (acidic or basic) we create a cell (a battery or galvanic cell), with two or more metals joined at the anode by a wire there can be a cell created between these at the anode, basically we have a cell within a cell, with reactions occurring at the anode itself, electrically and chemically. 

Having a mixed metal anode we are adding to the complications of reactions going on in the cell, many factors can be playing a role here. 

I am finding it hard to describe my thoughts here, but maybe you can get the idea.


----------



## solar_plasma

> I am finding it hard to describe my thoughts here, but maybe you can get the idea.



Yes, I understand that, you told me before and I try to have it in mind while I examine this cell. Therefor I am not sure if I have elemental silver, different silver oxides/hydroxides/hydrates or a blend of all. Probably it is a blend, which even alternates under the process until a stable equilibrium is reached. And they alternate again, as soon as any variable is changed.


----------



## solar_plasma

Cleaning the powders with HCl has been a poor choice, I think. Next time I would try dil. H2SO4 to avoid formation of AgCl. Only a little silver will get dissolved by H2SO4 and can be precipitated later.


----------



## Shark

Thanks so much for keeping this thread active. It is thread that caught my interest many months ago, but I had no understanding at all of the process involved and knew nothing of the refining of silver. The little I have learned over the months have peaked a new interest at the learning stage for me.


----------



## solar_plasma

Instead of using tap water, which creates some AgCl and some NaOH to a pH of 9-10 in the beginning, it might be an idea to start with distilled water and raise the pH to 9-10 by some drops of NaOH. I haven't tried this, but it seems to be the logical consequence of the observations and the text I linked.

I haven't any data yet about the yield efficiency. I assume, that the more silver has been stripped, the more impure the gained oxides will get. As someone stated before, it is hard to determine, when the point to stop the process has come.

After all reading and experimenting I came to the conclusion, that the silver is mainly represented by Ag2O (and some AgCl if you use tap water). The contaminants seem to be comparably low, but definitely present.

Instead of washing the slimes, it might be better to dissolve them straightly in HNO3 and cement on a piece of copper from the dirty solution (less work, quite pure product).


----------



## the iron dwarf

*many thanks to Mod the world and solar and all the rest, newbie or expert who helped.*
I am a newbie and have been doing a lot of reading but was not happy about jumping in at the deep end.

I have a quantity of silver in lots of different forms, plated on several base metals, thick blocks of copper, some solder with lead and tin and who knows what else and did not want to create a big mess but would like to be able to recover the silver and maybe even some of the base metals, it all sounded like it was going to be very complicated.

now I am considering getting maybe 6 jars and putting silver on copper in one, silver on brass in another and so on, those that work I will use, those I get problems with I will ask about and maybe I can add a little to the questions here that others can ponder and so increase the total knowledge.

it seems very little current is needed and I have many 24 volt din rail supplies of an amp or more, A psu could even run several cells if only a few milliamps is needed

I will try to keep notes of anything I think others may want to know.

maybe the silver will be good 'as is' after filtering with a buchner funnel and washing, maybe I should check for and dissolve out remaining copper or go further by using nitric and cementing out on copper though that will come much later I think

once again
many thanks to Mod the world and solar and all the rest, newbie or expert who helped.


----------



## solar_plasma

Start with one item. Hammer it flat, if it isn't flat already. The ampere is low, because pure water has high resistance. Small distance and higher voltage (24V) give more ampere. The higher ampere you get, the faster the cell works (ampere = electrons or ions per time). But you are right, in this setup it will stay low.


----------



## the iron dwarf

first items are some blocks of copper from 1000A fuses
at a guess they are about 35mm square and 6mm thick with heavy silver on one face, will weigh them and suspend 2 of them in a 1.5 l jar about 100mm diameter inside and will add about 0.75l of tap water

items for the second jar are silver on brass cutlery, a lot of the silver is worn away but will see if the rest can be removed by the water.
will report back when done


----------



## the iron dwarf

well I did it...

I set up 1 jar with 2 old and worn out silver plated knives, total weight 125g
silver on brass and plenty of brass showing on these, I ended up getting 1 litre jars and as soon as I connected up a 12v supply the liquid went milky with streams of white going from the + side to the -, the minus was bubbling, after a few minutes there was about 8mm depth of a milky substance on the bottom.
stirred it up a bit and had it running for about 30 minutes then turned it off for the night.
will see what it is like tomorrow and will put it on again.

may set up a second jar tomorrow if I get time


----------



## shorthair801

Awesome thread noticed the last post was from August is anyone still running this process?


----------



## solar_plasma

shorthair801 said:


> Awesome thread noticed the last post was from August is anyone still running this process?



It has become my favorite for silver plated material. I would not use any other process anymore.


----------



## shorthair801

Gathering the stuff to give this a try, read the entire post and watched all your video. thank you for sharing this. 

I have a 24v 8A dc battery charger that I am going to try first since it is laying in my do something in the future with pile of junk. Unless someone has tried this and has not had as results from it. I think I read that some was using 24v dc and it was going faster.


I do have a couple of questions 1. Do the cathode and anode need to be similar in size? 

2. How big of container has been used? I am thinking of plated serving ware which I could cut up if I had too. 

3. Has anyone tried it with silver plated on steel?

Thanks again this will be great for me if it works, I have been selling all my silver plate to the local yard for brass price. Which I will still get to do as well as keep the silver. The local PM refiner pays far less for silver plate than the scrap yard pays for the brass/copper in it.


----------



## solar_plasma

I think the cathode chould be at least as large as the anode to have an optimal rate. The shorter the distance of anode and cathode is, the more amps you will gain. Ampere means electrons or ions pathing through per time. More amps, faster stripping. Be carefull with the electricity. Also low voltage can harm you, if enough ampere find their way into and through your body.

I think you would be more happy with this method, if you first learn more about cells and electrolysis and start with small setups to become familar with it.


----------



## shorthair801

Choose to go with a 12V 1 amp trickle charger slow going put process is visible right off.


----------



## jungle_Dave

Anyone try silver oxide (SR) type batteries with this type of cell?

The issue I am having with Juan's method, which is brilliant none the less, is the amount of nitric acid required to process these batteries which is (as far as see) due to the electrolyte. KOH or NaOH . 

It should be possible to neutralize the alkaline with a cheaper acid, wash and and process the cathodes in an H2O cell.
If nobody has tried this I'll give it a shot unless there is a good reason for not doing it at all.


----------



## solar_plasma

Could you explain, what you want to try and why you think the H2O cell could help? I can't see any sense in your post. The tab water cell works fine to recover silver from silver plated stuff. It makes a mixed powder with Ag2O, Ag(OH)2, traces of AgCl and probably hydroxides and oxides of all base metals involved. The silver has to be refined. Though it is possible to go other routes than nitric, it is the only straight and proper method as far as I know.

The H2O cell with very pure distilled water is used to make colloidal silver.

edit: looking at the silver battery again, I can't see another way than to use nitric. You have to process metallic silver. It would take long time to oxidize it in a H2O cell to form silver oxides, which could be dissolved or converted and then dissolved without nitric.

If at all, I see two possibilities: 

oxidize to Ag2O, dissolve in H2SO4 (low solulity of silver sulfate though) and cement or drop as AgCl
or
convert Ag2O to AgCl, dissolve in thiosulfate and cement
or
a combination of both

All basemetals like nickel would be converted to oxides and hydroxides, too. Stainless steel might be more inert.

I am pretty sure those routes would be a poor choice compared to nitric.


----------



## jungle_Dave

Hi Solar Plasma,

I reviewed the construction of the batteries again, took apart 4 different types of SR and they are all the same.

SR batteries cathodes are composed with a small disk of Ag2O in elemental Ag with a layer of either KOH or NaOH (electrolyte) a barrier film and a stainless steel shell.
The Anode is a capsule, zinc, KOH, barrier film in stainless steel a cap and bezel.
Its not unlike a bullet (if a bullet was flat)

No need to convert Ag2O to Ag20. Its labor intensive but removing the disk, washing in hot water, and processing with nitric is the only way to save a bit on the nitric acid. 
I'll try a kg of batteries to see if its worth the effort, otherwise Ill just grind it all up in a ball mill and separate out the steel magnetically .

Thanks for taking the time though.


----------



## the iron dwarf

I have some blocks of aluminium plated with silver, inside is a small PCB that I have not managed to remove more than fragments of with silver tracks and small coils of silver plated wire soldered on, I have a few of these and thought a h20 cell may be a way to go.
I have not yet tested the solder but I suspect that is also high in silver


----------



## solar_plasma

Aluminium should work. Most aluminium you can buy at your home depot has been anodized (protected with an oxide layer). The silver should strip and leave anodized aluminium.

Processing SnAg alloys that way sounds like making a mess.

Just a guess.


----------



## the iron dwarf

will test the solder and see if I can remove the board with heat
dont think these blocks are anodized as they are electroplated, they are part of some sort of antenna and are machined into chambers on both sides, pictures later today

I could try leaving them in HCL to deal with the solder first

the lids are silver plated aluminium, will the H2O process attack the aluminium if it is not anodized?


----------



## the iron dwarf

test showed silver on block, coils, lid and board but solder on board and under board fixing it in place I got dark brown instead of red so I have tin there.
using my hotplate I removed all the boards


----------



## solar_plasma

> dont think these blocks are anodized



they get anodized as soon as you put them into the H2O cell as the anode. You people would have a lot more fun with the H2O cell, if you first learn, what it does  no bad intentions, just my two cents


----------



## the iron dwarf

wouldnt electroplating on top of anodizing be difficult, from what I have heard anodizing is checked by measuring the conductivity of the surface so the aluminium under the silver would more likely be clean, it would have to remover the silver first for it to be anodized in the cell unless it does this *through* the silver plating.
I will start with the lids as they have no solder on them and will try soaking 1 of the blocks in HCL to try solder removal


----------



## solar_plasma

> edit: page 6 and 7 seem to give a quite good explanation and some answers http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/478632.pdf



Oxidation takes place at the anode. You can use this for making an inert protective layer of oxide on aluminium and other metals. Silver flakes of as Ag, Ag2O and other silver compounds. I did not say, that there is an oxide layer under the silver plate.


----------



## heliman4141

modtheworld44 said:


> Hi to All,
> 
> Ok where to begin! I guess with the specs of my cell,so here they are.
> 
> POWER SUPPLY(Front Panel)
> Radio Shack
> Regulated 12 volt Power supply
> Converts 120 VAC to 12 VDC
> 1 on/off power switch
> 
> POWER SUPPLY(Back Panel)
> 120 VAC
> 60 HZ
> 60 WATTS MAX
> 
> OUTPUT 13.8 VDC- 2.5A
> 3 AMP reset switch
> 
> 2 wires & 2 clamps
> 1 gallon pickle jar
> 
> ANODE and CATHODE (any SILVERPLATE WARE you choose)
> ELECTROLYTE(good old H2O)
> 
> Ok now to the process .
> 
> 1.Fill jar about 3-5 inches from the top so you have plenty of room for rinseing periodically .
> 2.Clamp Anode and Cathode to jar (Leave Anode+ half out of water helps deplate better).Do not let your clamps touch the water.
> 3.Make sure that Anode and Cathode are across from one another ,not side by side.
> 4.Turn power supply on,after about 1 1/2 minutes you should start seeing the silver coming off in a cloudy stream.
> 5.After it runs for a hour or two the cell will start to get real cloudy and by this time you,ll start to see growth on the anode (don,t panic) just power the cell off .
> 6.Use spray bottle and tooth brush to clean Anode (Make sure to do this back into the cell).Do not clean Cathode.
> 7.Flip Anode around so deplated end is sticking out of water and reclamp, and turn power back on.
> 8.When second half is done , turn power off ,unclamp Anode and use it to stir the cell for about a minute then clean second half of Anode then replace with new Anode.Continue steps 2-8 Until step 9 comes into play.
> 9.When water is almost to the top near clamp, power down remove and clean current Anode,remove and spray only the Cathode(You want Cathode to stay tarnished black).
> 10.Now that cell is pregnant filter all liquid through 3 stacked coffee filters 1 time only.
> 11.Rinse black powder in filter with spray bottle, dry till it hardens then save for bigger melt.
> 12.Now refill cell with the same fluid you filtered and start again,except now you can leave Anode in for longer time period and let the growth grow longer before cleanings.
> 
> Heres my video
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WCyoq1yMgg





Very interesting science & chemistry!
I have a question tho..............Silver at the moment is low at spot & it takes (money) ......electricity to run the cell, so is it a viable source of income at this stage, or just an experiment?
Also, have you or anyone else tried this experiment on Gold plated items? I can see consuming electricity worthwhile if it worked on Gold plating or a lot faster on Silver.

Dave


----------



## FrugalRefiner

I don't know what anyone else pays, but I pay a little under 6 cents per kilowatt hour for electricity. One kilowatt hour will run a 100 watt light bulb for ten hours. One kilowatt hour will power a low voltage, low amperage DC power supply for a long time.

Dave


----------



## heliman4141

FrugalRefiner said:


> I don't know what anyone else pays, but I pay a little under 6 cents per kilowatt hour for electricity. One kilowatt hour will run a 100 watt light bulb for ten hours. One kilowatt hour will power a low voltage, low amperage DC power supply for a long time.
> 
> Dave




Thanks Dave,
Its a very frugal process obviously, that is what I was hoping for. Gold recovery & refining had been a very expensive lesson I didn't want to repeat. I have a lot of plated stuff that I didn't know what to do with. Can hardly give it away. This may be the answer come Summer.

Dave


----------



## FrugalRefiner

I've been reading an old book called _The Precious Metals Comprising Gold Silver and Platinum_ recently. In the history section on parting gold and silver, they mention that the oldest methods of furnaces and cementation ruled for hundreds of years. Beginning in the 1500s, furnace work was replaced by the use of nitric acid. This was replaced by the use of sulfuric acid in 1802, because sulfuric was less expensive. The sulfuric process was replaced in the early 1900s by electrolytic methods, again because of economy.

While it is not as fast as acid refining, and the cost of metals tied up in the processes must be considered, electrolytic methods can provide frugal alternatives to expensive acids on the scale that many of us work.

Dave


----------



## Profikiskery

This is a fantastic learning experience!!

It seems very safe first of all. Secondly, the safeness, lets you observe all kinds of new stuff and relate it to terms learned here, and in Hoke's book. So much is to be learned from this, its incredible. I was taken back when GSP said, and I quote lightly, "it was one of the most interesting developments or ideas he had seen in years." 

From what I have gathered, when it comes to silver he is in the know. I saw another leader here saying that GSP had refined more silver than most of us had ever looked at. Things like that catch my eye. It is obvious who the shining lights are here, from one skill to the other. For one to compliment another, when at many times they seem to be at odds, is a time to take note. My interest is for now silver, and I try to seek out the post with the leaders that have shared their learnings piecemeal. 

Seemed to me this post was huge in the silver arena so I am getting involved. If for nothing else to sit back and read, and learn. 

Got my second spoon in now, have a much better grasp on what "colloid" is now, have been able to watch the silver move to the cathode. Learning to handle fluids better....what glassware works best for pouring and measuring. Much more of the terms used here now are connecting. Taking notes....as I said this is great for a newbie getting started like me. 

Haven't even mentioned expected yields yet!! From the plated stuff, anything is a bonus. Film at 11 on that.

Forgive my being giddy. I just get that way when a lot of value is presented for free. 

Thanks for the great post!!

Craig


----------



## heliman4141

This was a super post at length,
Not often here one reads about a safe natural way to recover anything usually without serious fumes & acids etc...
The colloidal Silver I wanted to mention its awsome benefits ive received. Have a friend who had made some with pure Silver rods & id always had an issue with with eczema in the ear canals driving me nuts trying to cure.
Tried some cream from the Dr. that cost well over $100 a tube with almost no success then moved on to hollistic ways such as Teatree oil which worked 10 times better then the script did, but the odor of it & the fact that it still came back eventually left me a bit bewildered on what to do next.
Well, a friend I spoke with made me up a bottle of Colloidal Silver & said, read up about it first, then use some in your ears & be prepared for a surprise...........She was right!
Its been over 2 weeks now & i have absolutly zero issues so far with my ears. Its use as a topical for skin conditions & infections is well, simply amazing.
I also wanted to add that I only applied it one time with a Q-tip that was all that was necessary, no additional applications necessary, again simply amazing! 
I love the fact it has no odor or any side effects at all. She has a machine that uses 2 pure Silver rods & steam distilled pure water in the process, takes about 3 hrs. I was told.
When asked why she was making this I was told it was incase she or someone else came down with a bad resperatory or other viral infection that regular meds wouldn't deal with quickly.
As far as drinking it I have no fear after reading about it but, id only do that IF I had a bad viral infection that a Z-pac couldn't cure first, so id know for certain its viral. Ive read that it can halt a viral infection fast in just a few days if that is the case. Its kept in a dark glass bottle in a paper bag in my cool basement in a cabinet. 
Sometimes the most natural form of medicine is clearly the best rout verses big Pharmas push of endless pills and drugs used to treat, verses cure...............

Dave


----------



## Profikiskery

The cement I yielded is very dark. This has been a slow process. So far have introduced about 13 oz of silverplate into the cell. Cleaned each piece with a torch prior. 

The "smoke" that initially comes off seems to be a good light quality cement, but it doesn't take long at all for the electrolyte to start getting dark with what I am sure is mostly junk. My best guess is MAYBE 5% of that cement will be silver. I still have a ways to go before I collect the cement. My pickle jar has collected a little over 1/4 inch at the bottom. 

My thoughts are what will happen with .925 sterling instead of plate? I am wondering if the H2O electrolyte will still break that down as it does the plated material and create a better quality of cement. I will try it and let you guys know.....

From what I have gathered so far, there is no upside in this process. However it seems to work and water and electricity is cheap. Just trying to see if there is a way to make it more efficient, and yield a better product. 

If any of you guys have suggestions, I am willing to spend the time. 

Craig


----------



## solar_plasma

Sterling will just make a silver-copper-mud. This method is not and can not be selective for silver, especially not for alloys.


----------



## Profikiskery

Yes. My thoughts as well.

But can I not take that mud....dissolve it in nitric, then precipitate it with copper? My thoughts are that would extract what little silver there is.


----------



## solar_plasma

Ofcourse the mud will dissolve faster and you could dissolve a big part of the base metals first in order to save nitric. I've done that with mud from plated material.

I haven't been really happy with HCl for washing this powder since at least the Ag2O will create AgCl which adds additional steps. Dilluted H2SO4 might serve better since AgSO4 is soluble to some degree.

Still I think the H2O cell is pure recovery. For sterling it might work, it will add additional steps and you will probably be better off using straight conventional methods, if nitric isn't the problem for you.


----------



## Profikiskery

solar_plasma said:


> Ofcourse the mud will dissolve faster and you could dissolve a big part of the base metals first in order to save nitric. I've done that with mud from plated material.
> 
> I haven't been really happy with HCl for washing this powder since at least the Ag2O will create AgCl which adds additional steps. Dilluted H2SO4 might serve better since AgSO4 is soluble to some degree.
> 
> Still I think the H2O cell is pure recovery. For sterling it might work, it will add additional steps and you will probably be better off using straight conventional methods, if nitric isn't the problem for you.



Thank you. AG2O is I think exactly what I have here. Will probably just put it back for a bit. Have yet to experience H2SO4 and am a bit weary, but reading more about it. 

I am still very limited,

Craig


----------



## solar_plasma

Always welcome!


----------



## ettran

hi there guys,just tried my silver cell try.i could not belive how fast it works.this is my first try.i will post results,ed.


----------



## ettran

hi,dissapointed with results,very small amount of silver powder.ed


----------



## Grelko

I finally got time to read all of this at one sitting. Might I just say :shock: :mrgreen:

I've never felt good about making a sulfuric cell because of mixing acid and electric. Water and electric on the other hand, this I can do.

Let's see if I got this right.

After de-plating the silver, all I would need to do is, filter, dry and melt the powder? I was going to try HCL to clean it a bit more, but I read that it's just adding steps to the process. Also, I'm not setup safely enough to start using nitric yet.

Did anyone happen to figure out approximately how pure the resulting silver is after melting it? (without washing it first) .995, .925, .800?

Is there anything else I would need to do, to dispose of the water from the cell after filtering out the powder, besides bringing the PH back to 7? I figure it would be the same disposal process as AP.

Would a car battery charger work for this? it has the 2/10/50 setting, so it would be set on 2. I also believe that it's 12v. 

Lastly, either I read something wrong, or someome was using a 9v battery for this? It's just a regular 9v battery and not some odd kind I don't know of yet right? :lol: Just like the "hotplate" I have that only goes to 300F "148C", but the ones I've read about on here go to almost 1,400F "around 750C".


----------



## solar_plasma

> After de-plating the silver, all I would need to do is, filter, dry and melt the powder? I was going to try HCL to clean it a bit more, but I read that it's just adding steps to the process. Also, I'm not setup safely enough to start using nitric yet.





> Did anyone happen to figure out approximately how pure the resulting silver is after melting it? (without washing it first) .995, .925, .800?



I can only assume, that it is somewhere between .500 and .800. I have no practical experience with pyrometallurgy yet, but after all I read, cupeling or smelting might be options, if you want to avoid the wet way.



> Is there anything else I would need to do, to dispose of the water from the cell after filtering out the powder, besides bringing the PH back to 7? I figure it would be the same disposal process as AP.



Just reuse it or let it evaporate, then you are on the safe side. Though I believe it is okay with bringing it to neutral, filter and dispose, I would never advise to dispose anything I haven't made and tested myself. 



> Would a car battery charger work for this? it has the 2/10/50 setting, so it would be set on 2. I also believe that it's 12v.
> 
> Lastly, either I read something wrong, or someome was using a 9v battery for this? It's just a regular 9v battery and not some odd kind I don't know of yet right? :lol: Just like the "hotplate" I have that only goes to 300F "148C", but the ones I've read about on here go to almost 1,400F "around 750C".



You are fine with any battery charger. Give it as many ampere as it wants, but be careful not to make a short circuit....would not be funny at 50A. But 10A for the beginning should be fine.


----------



## Grelko

solar_plasma said:


> I can only assume, that it is somewhere between .500 and .800. I have no practical experience with pyrometallurgy yet, but after all I read, cupeling or smelting might be options, if you want to avoid the wet way.
> 
> Just reuse it or let it evaporate, then you are on the safe side. Though I believe it is okay with bringing it to neutral, filter and dispose, I would never advise to dispose anything I haven't made and tested myself.
> 
> You are fine with any battery charger. Give it as many ampere as it wants, but be careful not to make a short circuit....would not be funny at 50A. But 10A for the beginning should be fine.




I was hoping it would be around .925 or better since the jewerly store down the road, doesn't like buying anything lower than that.

I'll just let it evaporate when I'm done using it, to save some money, instead of neutralizing it.

When I finally get the time to make one, I'll start out with it set at 2, to see how it works, then set it at 10 once I get the hang of it. I wouldn't go to 50 unless I really knew what I was doing.


----------



## solar_plasma

Just a thought:

Ag20 + H20 + 2e- = 2Ag0 + 20H- 0.344V

(source: silver oxide electrodes)

Cu2O +  H2O + 2 e− ⇌ 2 Cu0 + 2 OH− −0.360V
_the other base metal are on the negative side as well_
(source: standard electrode potential)

Wouldn't this mean, that this stripping cell could be selective to silver if we avoid any side reactions by using very dilluted solution of NaOH (pH10) at a low voltage? Or did I overlook/misunderstand anything?

I guess I am hooked again


----------



## solar_plasma

What is the cathode half cell, is it Na/Na+ at -2.71V against H2?

If so, then a Cu/CuO-anode half cell would be at -0.36V against H2?

Then a voltage of more then 2.35V would oxidize the Cu-anode?

With Ag/Ag2O at +0,344V against H2, we would need more then 3.07V to oxidize the Ag-anode?

If all this is correct, then the stripping cell cannot be selective to silver.


----------



## BSGMiner

I have been in the first few phases of processing silver-plated flatware for a while now using the following materials:

. 1L wide-mouth mason jar
. 1L distilled water
. 1Tbsp non-iodized salt (15g)
. Stainless steel cathode
. Various 12V power supplies
..3-10A solar panels
..35Ah deep-cycle battery
..10A battery charger

Some of the comments concerning pH levels got me curious enough to check my jars--some with dilute HCl--and see what mine were, so here's the result:






*** Also, other than nitric acid, what would be the best way to ensure any silver chloride is converted back to just silver (sulfuric-iron method?) as well as separating the base metals from the silver (please don't say nitric)? Below is what my Post-Cell jar looks like currently.


----------



## solar_plasma

Yes, nitric is the only way to go, that makes sense. If it is just for the fun, you can use a cobber sulfate cell for dirty silver and a silver nitrate cell thereafter. But it is just not worth the effort, chemicals and the production of waste solutions. Just my two cents.


----------



## BSGMiner

solar_plasma said:


> Yes, nitric is the only way to go, that makes sense.


Actually, (after I researched it out some more) once the copper chloride process dissolves the remaining base metals, I'm really looking forward to the sulfuric-iron process outlined by others here--and Hoke, of course. I bought my battery acid (35% H2SO4) this weekend.


----------



## solar_plasma

Oh, I thought you asked for refining methods, not for...what I call sheer recovery. I think all wet methods will recover all silver from silver chloride. Only the hot methods will cause some losses.


----------



## Sancho_n_Pedro

trying this method right now. I am wondering, at ant time do you scrape the silver off, or just brush?

The info this is awesome. 

thanks guys


----------



## Martijn

I gently brush it with a paint brush and spray the last bits off. 
There will always be some left in a corner. I don't bother to get that off.


----------



## Sancho_n_Pedro

Am I correct in saying you are all de-plating "silver plate" or EPNS (as I was led to believe that "Electro Plated Nickel Silver" did not contain any silver), or am I getting my wires crossed and EPNS is actually "Electro Plated Nickel with Silver"?

I ask as I have good quantity of EPNS spoons/forks, and if these are not suitable then I won't waste the time running them through this process.

Thanks guys


----------



## Martijn

Test it.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Sancho_n_Pedro said:


> Am I correct in saying you are all de-plating "silver plate" or EPNS (as I was led to believe that "Electro Plated Nickel Silver" did not contain any silver), or am I getting my wires crossed and EPNS is actually "Electro Plated Nickel with Silver"?


EPNS does stand for electroplated nickel silver. Nickel silver does not contain any silver. But it is electroplated with silver.

Dave


----------



## Sancho_n_Pedro

Cool, Guess they will be seeing the cell tonight... thanks


----------



## Sancho_n_Pedro

Well, had a fair few spoons/forks/knives and the odd plated bowl that I chopped into strips... I've mixed the whole of the black mud into one batch, and is in the process of air drying (unless anyone can suggest a better way to dry?)

I will melt this up onto a button/block once it's dry... Sadly some of the metal from the pieces I chopped have also made their way into the mud (see blue spots)... 

Any advise to avoid this for next time?


----------



## Sancho_n_Pedro

So, I connected to an auction last week and saw what looked like an antique grain grinder, and was going to sell for £8, I bid and got it for £9. The grinder looks to need a bit of a repair before I can use it, but buried under the other junk items were two large ladles. At first glace they looked stainless steel (probably why nobody was interested), but they were actually plated. They're both "chipped" or "pitted" so won't get used in our house, but are ideal candidates for my H2O cell (although not sure I can fit the head into it, might look at a wider "plastic" vessel to do that?).

The plating on these looks really thick as seen in the 3rd pic (circled where it has a chip), and I'd estimate the head about 10cm x 8cm with the length about 30cm. I recon these will give as much silver alone as what I have collected from the previous batch of forks, spoon, knives, going by the gap in the plate that exposes the base metal. 

I'll weigh all the black powder once it's dried to show what has been gained from these, and will keep the weight separate from that of the previous post so I can see if my estimates are anywhere close... Will keep you guys posted on the progress, as I am just waiting on the other lot drying off.


----------



## blackcatlettuce

New guy here. I've also made one of these cells, with a stainless steel cathode. Took a beaker of water and saturated it with table salt (NaCl). I know this will probably produce silver chloride, and I'm ready for that with some lye and sugar, but that's down the road a bit. 

I ended up running two cells with the same power source at the same time. Used a variable voltage & amperage transformer to set it to about 2.5V and let it run for a good 5 minutes. Had trouble stripping it, so I bumped it up to 6V. Brushed off the blackish silver with a good stiff brush into a rinse bucket. I repeated this cycle until the flatware had no more black silver on it, then tossed it in a bucket that I'll put in my stock pot later.

Ran through a few pieces of flatware and ended up with this for cells. The yellow stuff settles down to the bottom, and I have a bright blue substance floating on the top. Once it settles further, there will be more a pronounced difference, but this is what I have right now. As I'm reading through this, it sounds like everyone is letting it sit on the power for an hour or more. What's the reasoning behind this? Any comments would be helpful. 

Also, any idea what kind of residues these are? I assume they are base metals that were also stripped off, but I don't know which ones. I'm guessing that the yellow is a nickel.


----------



## Yggdrasil

The H2O cell is supposed to be run without salt as far as I know.
There was a discussion here a few years back. Search the forum for H2O cell.


----------



## Shark

Read this entire thread, from the first page. No salt needed as the use of tap water has enough properties to make the cell work. It leaves a very dirty solution of silver that may not convert well with sugar and lye.


----------



## blackcatlettuce

Shark said:


> Read this entire thread, from the first page. No salt needed as the use of tap water has enough properties to make the cell work. It leaves a very dirty solution of silver that may not convert well with sugar and lye.


What properties are we exactly looking for? Chlorinated water?


----------



## Shark

Just plain tap water. Pure water is less conductive and most distilled water is as well. Most tap waters are treated with a variety of chemicals that will do the job just fine. The electricity will do the job if the water will conduct well enough. This lead myself to follow the original OP to use plated items as both the cathode and anode. It is all fairly well explained as the additional posts progress. It is not a perfect method but works pretty well for those with minimal starting materials. 

What you end up with is a mixture or soup of silver in various forms which is why I use the sulfuric and iron method of recovery to silver metal. It seems to reduce the losses over lye and sugar.


----------



## BlackLabel

blackcatlettuce said:


> I ended up running two cells with the same power source at the same time.



Hi blackcatlettuce,

You can't run two cells parallel properly.
The current will always prefer the more conductive path.


----------



## blackcatlettuce

BlackLabel said:


> Hi blackcatlettuce,
> 
> You can't run two cells parallel properly.
> The current will always prefer the more conductive path.


Thank you for this, I was noticing that one cell was stripping much faster than the other, I was just too lazy to swap the positive electrode over to another side and check it out.


----------



## snail

Cells will run in series, just need higher voltages.


----------



## rickbb

The salt is not needed, it just makes the water a bit more conductive, any mineral will do that which is why plain tap water works.

It won't make silver chloride either, the stripping cell does not dissolve the silver, it simply makes the silver plate flake off the part. It stays as a metal in the cell and is not converted to some other form of silver.

You are basically reverse electroplating, using current to make the metal ions lose their bonding connections and be "pushed", (for lack of a better word), away from the part you are de-plating. You will have all kinds of metals de-plated, whatever the part is made of, copper, steel, white, (pot), metal, etc. along with the silver. Leave it too long and you will have more base metal than silver.

The trick is to stop at the point where the silver is removed before much base metal is removed. This will require some trial and error on your part as no one has the exact same cell or source parts to de-plate.

Whatever you recover when finished you will have to wash and clean well, then refine to get the silver pure. Which is altogether a different ball game.


----------



## blackcatlettuce

rickbb said:


> The salt is not needed, it just makes the water a bit more conductive, any mineral will do that which is why plain tap water works.
> 
> It won't make silver chloride either, the stripping cell does not dissolve the silver, it simply makes the silver plate flake off the part. It stays as a metal in the cell and is not converted to some other form of silver.
> 
> You are basically reverse electroplating, using current to make the metal ions lose their bonding connections and be "pushed", (for lack of a better word), away from the part you are de-plating. You will have all kinds of metals de-plated, whatever the part is made of, copper, steel, white, (pot), metal, etc. along with the silver. Leave it too long and you will have more base metal than silver.
> 
> The trick is to stop at the point where the silver is removed before much base metal is removed. This will require some trial and error on your part as no one has the exact same cell or source parts to de-plate.
> 
> Whatever you recover when finished you will have to wash and clean well, then refine to get the silver pure. Which is altogether a different ball game.


Thanks, this is going to help my refining and recovery processes a lot. I was sure that I would have to take the chlorine out of the silver. Might just try nitric and cementing it out on copper now, I'm not sure.


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## rickbb

All you have to do with what you get from the cell is wash it good, (several times), in hot water. If you get the current and time right it will be mostly the silver plating. You could just melt that as is, it will be whatever purity the plating was, usually sterling, 92.5% silver.

Putting that washed flake in nitric will dissolve it, cementing it back out with copper will retrieve most, (not all), of the silver. If you do that right you can get the purity up to the high 99% range. Their other methods that work well too, all require you to do it right.

Just depends on what your intentions are with the recovered silver.


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## jphayesjr

Sancho_n_Pedro said:


> So, I connected to an auction last week and saw what looked like an antique grain grinder, and was going to sell for £8, I bid and got it for £9. The grinder looks to need a bit of a repair before I can use it, but buried under the other junk items were two large ladles. At first glace they looked stainless steel (probably why nobody was interested), but they were actually plated. They're both "chipped" or "pitted" so won't get used in our house, but are ideal candidates for my H2O cell (although not sure I can fit the head into it, might look at a wider "plastic" vessel to do that?).
> 
> The plating on these looks really thick as seen in the 3rd pic (circled where it has a chip), and I'd estimate the head about 10cm x 8cm with the length about 30cm. I recon these will give as much silver alone as what I have collected from the previous batch of forks, spoon, knives, going by the gap in the plate that exposes the base metal.
> 
> I'll weigh all the black powder once it's dried to show what has been gained from these, and will keep the weight separate from that of the previous post so I can see if my estimates are anywhere close... Will keep you guys posted on the progress, as I am just waiting on the other lot drying off.


As you may know, antique Sheffield Plate was made by thermally fusing thin layers of silver sheet to a base metal object. When you find pieces in fairly knackered shape that collectors avoid, you may snap them up at a bargain. I understand you are keen on harvesting the silver, and that's fine. But also consider that the antique silver and the antique base metal, especially nickel, may also contain significant percentages of platinum group metals, so much that they're richer than commercially produced ores. That will be especially true for items produced before the 1820s, the era when the chemist Wollaston first discovered palladium, rhodium, and practical ways to work at tempering platinum to make it more ductile, leading to it's use in manufacturing. That's been my experience, and if that works out for you, I hope you find all you wish. Keep in mind that old gold plate and solid gold is also likely to have similar composition, plus significant silver.


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## Sancho_n_Pedro

jphayesjr said:


> As you may know, antique Sheffield Plate was made by thermally fusing thin layers of silver sheet to a base metal object. When you find pieces in fairly knackered shape that collectors avoid, you may snap them up at a bargain. I understand you are keen on harvesting the silver, and that's fine. But also consider that the antique silver and the antique base metal, especially nickel, may also contain significant percentages of platinum group metals, so much that they're richer than commercially produced ores. That will be especially true for items produced before the 1820s, the era when the chemist Wollaston first discovered palladium, rhodium, and practical ways to work at tempering platinum to make it more ductile, leading to it's use in manufacturing. That's been my experience, and if that works out for you, I hope you find all you wish. Keep in mind that old gold plate and solid gold is also likely to have similar composition, plus significant silver.


That is very interesting to hear. I was planning to do some experimentation with the other de-plated items, so thin information is very well received.


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## Sancho_n_Pedro

rickbb said:


> All you have to do with what you get from the cell is wash it good, (several times), in hot water. If you get the current and time right it will be mostly the silver plating. You could just melt that as is, it will be whatever purity the plating was, usually sterling, 92.5% silver.
> 
> Putting that washed flake in nitric will dissolve it, cementing it back out with copper will retrieve most, (not all), of the silver. If you do that right you can get the purity up to the high 99% range. Their other methods that work well too, all require you to do it right.
> 
> Just depends on what your intentions are with the recovered silver.


Hadn't got any real thought on what to do, as I don't have a great deal of it right now, so just storing it until there is a decent amount (maybe a few kilos).


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## scrappyjoe

hello people . thanks for the info. what a great thread. newbie here. i too have slowly amassed boxes of holloware and have been reluctant to turn it in as brass or copper . hoping for cure ! i'm going to have to read over it again. and again , and again ....

please keep the tread alive... i'm sure someones been up to something new .

i'm hoping someones come up with something that is actually profitable. has anyone had any luck with the platinum group as was suggested at the end of this tread?

thanks

joe


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## Yggdrasil

scrappyjoe said:


> hello people . thanks for the info. what a great thread. newbie here. i too have slowly amassed boxes of holloware and have been reluctant to turn it in as brass or copper . hoping for cure ! i'm going to have to read over it again. and again , and again ....
> 
> please keep the tread alive... i'm sure someones been up to something new .
> 
> i'm hoping someones come up with something that is actually profitable. has anyone had any luck with the platinum group as was suggested at the end of this tread?
> 
> thanks
> 
> joe


It is not PGM per se.
But some of the really old Silver may contain a bit, since the alloys aren't cleaned up like today.


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## scrappyjoe

i realize that, but it would be nice to get out a few bonus grams of something .

actually i'm just dreaming, because i havn't really started anything yet.

just starting to read up on the possibility of iodine leaching ...

after reading posts spanning 12 years on removing silver plate on this forum , does anyone have a suggestion as to what may be the best and most economical way for a newbie to start?

which avenue should i take ?

thanks


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## galenrog

There are several chemical methods. None are cost effective.

The water cell can achieve 90-95% purity should any of the underlying metal follow the silver, which is common. Unless electrical power is free, it is still not economical.

Mechanical separation, primarily using abrasives, require separation of the abrasive media from the now powdered silver. To minimize losses, this should be done in a sanding box used for sand blasting. Because the separation from abrasive media is typically done chemically, it is also uneconomical.

If you value your time, the economics are far worse.

Time for more coffee.


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## MooseMan

galenrog said:


> The water cell can achieve 90-95% purity should any of the underlying metal follow the silver, which is common. Unless electrical power is free, it is still not economical.


Your words above have just triggered me galenrog thank you!

It was suggested to me by another of you wise ones, in a thread I posted about some large plated tubing I have, that I could use the H2O Silver cell.
I did some research across the forum and got an understanding of it, then mentally bookmarked it to do when I have time.

What I didn't really consider, and I can't quite believe it didn't register in my brain, is that I could use solar power to run the cell!!! Doh!

I have a 120w CIGS panel setup feeding 4x 22ah batteries (Ex UPS system) in parallel, with an inline charge controller that can provide 6/12/24v switched output.
So all is have to do is place a DC/DC device after that to control amps, and I have the "Free electrical power" yes?


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## Yggdrasil

MooseMan said:


> Your words above have just triggered me galenrog thank you!
> 
> It was suggested to me by another of you wise ones, in a thread I posted about some large plated tubing I have, that I could use the H2O Silver cell.
> I did some research across the forum and got an understanding of it, then mentally bookmarked it to do when I have time.
> 
> What I didn't really consider, and I can't quite believe it didn't register in my brain, is that I could use solar power to run the cell!!! Doh!
> 
> I have a 120w CIGS panel setup feeding 4x 22ah batteries (Ex UPS system) in parallel, with an inline charge controller that can provide 6/12/24v switched output.
> So all is have to do is place a DC/DC device after that to control amps, and I have the "Free electrical power" yes?


In theory yes.
Interesting Idea, I suspect it is slow, but I'd love to get a report on how it went.


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## MooseMan

Yes slow for sure, but I'm never in a rush with any of my hobbies!

If/when I do it, I'll take some pictures and provide as much info as I can.

Just glad I can have some input that just might give someone else a lightbulb moment.


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## Haroldj1956

Hi, first post here. I Hear so much about not using tap water to keep chlorine out of different processes. I have a well and no chlorine, probably a little calcium and iron in my tap water, will this hurt anything?
I have not done anything yet, but want to experiment with e-waste to recover gold and silver. Then run the silver through a silver cell to purify it. ANY tips are appreciated as I would like to have it work minimizing the pitfalls.


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## Yggdrasil

Haroldj1956 said:


> Hi, first post here. I Hear so much about not using tap water to keep chlorine out of different processes. I have a well and no chlorine, probably a little calcium and iron in my tap water, will this hurt anything?
> I have not done anything yet, but want to experiment with e-waste to recover gold and silver. Then run the silver through a silver cell to purify it. ANY tips are appreciated as I would like to have it work minimizing the pitfalls.


Then you ate talking about another type of cell.
The H2O stripping cell removes silver plating from silver plated items.
To purify it you melt this and run it through a proper cell with Silver anode and Silver Nitrate electrolyte.


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## FrugalRefiner

The main process you need to keep chlorine away from is in refining silver. The H2O cell described in this thread is meant for recovering silver, not refining it, so chlorinated water is fine.

When refining gold, chlorinated water is fine, as the solution is already chloride based.

It's all kind of confusing when you start, but the more you study, the more it starts to make sense.

Dave


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