# Recovering gold from gold fingers



## icejj (Feb 6, 2022)

I would like to get input from members on the forum on what you all would think a minimum amount of profit per pound on gold fingers would make it worth your time to purchase and process gold trimmed fingers.

A little background information on why I ask: I have a potential partnership in the making, with someone who can supply me with gold fingers. This man has been in this business for awhile, and is willing to let me do a test run on a 1lb batch of gold fingers (after I pay for the 1lb fingers), which has been taken from a larger batch of fingers, and based on the yield, I will be able to negotiate how much I'd be willing to pay for the rest of the batch. Of course he could accept or decline my offer. 

So based on chemical costs and waste treatment costs, etc., I am curious as to a minimum amount of profit per pound that some of the members on the forum would come up with after getting a yield on a 1lb "test" batch. A minimum amount of profit that one would feel would make purchasing and processing such material worthwhile. Thanks!


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 6, 2022)

icejj said:


> I would like to get input from members on the forum on what you all would think a minimum amount of profit per pound on gold fingers would make it worth your time to purchase and process gold trimmed fingers.
> 
> A little background information on why I ask: I have a potential partnership in the making, with someone who can supply me with gold fingers. This man has been in this business for awhile, and is willing to let me do a test run on a 1lb batch of gold fingers (after I pay for the 1lb fingers), which has been taken from a larger batch of fingers, and based on the yield, I will be able to negotiate how much I'd be willing to pay for the rest of the batch. Of course he could accept or decline my offer.
> 
> So based on chemical costs and waste treatment costs, etc., I am curious as to a minimum amount of profit per pound that some of the members on the forum would come up with after getting a yield on a 1lb "test" batch. A minimum amount of profit that one would feel would make purchasing and processing such material worthwhile. Thanks!


1lb of gold fingers trimmed properly with no excess (no green board) yields 2 grams of gold ideally. Gold spot is currently at the time of this post is $58.40/per 1 gram. That's a potential of $116.80 usd. ideal final yield valuation. Your max investment for gold fingers should be no more than 33% ($38.93 usd.)/lb. Ideal investment should be 25% ($29.20 usd.)/lb.. Mind you, you will need a lot of gold fingers to offset your chemical/equipment cost beyond a hobby level. You need to figure what amount of material you would need with your process once perfected to lower the total cost/investment of chemical/equipment/source material at 25% or less of final value. It should be 25% for the total source/recover/refinement process, 25% safety net, 25% profit for you, 25% reinvested to scale.

Edit* Finally, back at the office and not out and about on a phone. My apologies for the edits and multi post due to size of a phone screen. 
Anyways... For these kind of numbers to work, and for this to be viable for you as a business venture on just gold fingers alone (which it shouldn't be JUST gold fingers), the type of quantities we're talking about is not small. You've to figure Ideal numbers are nice, but in reality with the process, 1-1.5 Grams gold / per lb. of gold fingers after potential problems, quality, thickness of plate, etc. Equipment cost to really do this at scale, is not cheap, when you need to do volume. Even if you're to do electrowinning, you could buy a smaller ready to go unit to process, but you're still looking at $7,000 per electrowinning unit, not including a single thing else. It would take you about 110-120 lbs. of gold fingers for free to cover the cost of that one piece of equipment with absolutely no other cost coming out. Cost of refining is usually a trade secret, which why I suggested you figure out what the cost of your process is not including your raw material, to produce a troy ounce (31.1035 grams), how long it takes you, and how much you value your time at. Take the value of the ounce, minus the chemical cost, then divide the remaining total by 31.1035, the number you get is your absolute max you can spend, per pound, before losing money.


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## orvi (Feb 6, 2022)

AMS-Pro said:


> 1lb of gold fingers trimmed properly with no excess (no green board) yields 2 grams of gold ideally. Gold spot is currently at the time of this post is $58.40/per 1 gram. That's a potential of $116.80 usd. ideal final yield valuation. Your max investment for gold fingers should be no more than 33% ($38.93 usd.)/lb. Ideal investment should be 25% ($29.20 usd.)/lb.. Mind you, you will need a lot of gold fingers to offset your chemical/equipment cost beyond a hobby level. You need to figure what amount of material you would need with your process once refined to figure the regular supply you need for your total cost of chemical/equipment/source material cost to be at 25% or less of final value.


This is very risky type venture. Depending on how you see it - as a funny hobby with possibility to make some buck/or lose it, or as a business opportunity with aim of making cash.
2g/lb of fingers is yield on the higher end. This happen when you get some good hard plated older stuff. Newer fingers like RAM fingers do not run that high. Sometimes you are quite grateful for 1,5g/kg, not 4.
Material would probably vary from batch to batch, as every finger is unique and I doubt it will come from one type of device all the time. I don´t know if I personally go like this. Could be a losing game.

One of the best practices is to get whole bulk lot homogenized best as you can, and pull average sample (say that one pound). Hard to accomplish in amateur setup, but kinda doable. This you can process, assume the yield and then negotiate. 

Just be aware of getting sample directly from the hand of seller, agree on purchase the bulk and receive some unknown quality stuff. Guys who can run this business for that long are either very skilled and precisely know how valuable their material is, or they are partly scammers who know exactly what they are doing to get extra buck out off you


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 6, 2022)

orvi said:


> This is very risky type venture. Depending on how you see it - as a funny hobby with possibility to make some buck/or lose it, or as a business opportunity with aim of making cash.
> 2g/lb of fingers is yield on the higher end. This happen when you get some good hard plated older stuff. Newer fingers like RAM fingers do not run that high. Sometimes you are quite grateful for 1,5g/kg, not 4.
> Material would probably vary from batch to batch, as every finger is unique and I doubt it will come from one type of device all the time. I don´t know if I personally go like this. Could be a losing game.
> 
> ...


I edited my post for clarity. I'm on a cell phone right now, so had to type in multiple sections. This is how I do mine from a business standpoint on percentages. Also note, I did say 2grams/lb ideally lol.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 6, 2022)

Also, to clarify the 25% reinvested to scale. This is recurring cost like licensing, insurance, multiple source location, employees, building and overall operating cost. The gold fingers won't always be there, so you need to work on being set up for multiple continuous material processing, if you really want to make a business of this.


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## niks neims (Feb 6, 2022)

You know, there probably is a reason why, for example, boardsort pays 40$/lb 

Also be carefull - sometimes scammers will try to sell you ENIG plating as "fingers", from LCD boards for example...


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## silversaddle1 (Feb 6, 2022)

I can tell you right now, if your guy has been in business as long as you say, he's not going to sell you trimmed fingers for 40 dollars a pound.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 6, 2022)

niks neims said:


> You know, there probably is a reason why, for example, boardsort pays 40$/lb
> 
> Also be carefull - sometimes scammers will try to sell you ENIG plating as "fingers", from LCD boards for example...


Lol yeah, to get the volume they need. With more people getting involved in the process/industry, means more competition and less profit. The good thing is there is a lot of source material (57.4 million tonnes/63.3 million U.S. tons minus a couple million tons or so for plastic and scrap steel/tin), and the number is growing every year. The bad is, the newer electronics get, the less precious metals they have used in them.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 6, 2022)

icejj said:


> I would like to get input from members on the forum on what you all would think a minimum amount of profit per pound on gold fingers would make it worth your time to purchase and process gold trimmed fingers.
> 
> A little background information on why I ask: I have a potential partnership in the making, with someone who can supply me with gold fingers. This man has been in this business for awhile, and is willing to let me do a test run on a 1lb batch of gold fingers (after I pay for the 1lb fingers), which has been taken from a larger batch of fingers, and based on the yield, I will be able to negotiate how much I'd be willing to pay for the rest of the batch. Of course he could accept or decline my offer.
> 
> So based on chemical costs and waste treatment costs, etc., I am curious as to a minimum amount of profit per pound that some of the members on the forum would come up with after getting a yield on a 1lb "test" batch. A minimum amount of profit that one would feel would make purchasing and processing such material worthwhile. Thanks!


You say "I have a potential partnership in the making, with someone who can supply me with gold fingers.", is that only as a source, or is he willing to be more invested in the process? I'm in agreement with


silversaddle1 said:


> I can tell you right now, if your guy has been in business as long as you say, he's not going to sell you trimmed fingers for 40 dollars a pound.


But even at $40 usd. (slightly above 33%) that's a lot to give to just a source. you could go 50/50 on it, but the reason of 33% is 1/3 for him, 1/3 for you, 1/3 for the process and miscellaneous. The process being dangerous as it is, you have more of the risk. If you're really doing a partnership in that sense with him, you shouldn't be buying the material upfront, you should be splitting the end result. His material, your time, risk, with chemical/equipment cost deducted first then the final result split.

At this point you're getting into the toll refining trade, so it could be you take 10%-15% of final product after the Cost of the process is deducted. But usually you have to have a spread sheet already set up, and the ability to do an expected analysis, which is not possible with only 1 lb. if we're talking about some serious volume. Estimated yes, basing on average yes, accurate on large volume with only 1 lb. no. 

You could have someone shred it all up and pulverize it for you, to give you a better idea. But that process cost money, I can tell you I charge $25/hour for 1 laborer on 1 shredder, and $25/hr. for each additional laborer. Capable of processing 1 ton a day. how much material you have, it really depends, run 500 lbs. then take a sample from the collection bin.

There's definitely a whole bunch of numbers involved to really go that route.

I know what information I can give you from my part of the industry as I just did. But you're going need several people on here for the more chemical side of it for sure to average the cost of your process, but all of that goes back to cost of refining, and people, including myself, tend to be really reserved when it comes to letting that information out as that is our lively hood and how we are able to stay in business.


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## icejj (Feb 6, 2022)

AMS-Pro said:


> 1lb of gold fingers trimmed properly with no excess (no green board) yields 2 grams of gold ideally. Gold spot is currently at the time of this post is $58.40/per 1 gram. That's a potential of $116.80 usd. ideal final yield valuation. Your max investment for gold fingers should be no more than 33% ($38.93 usd.)/lb. Ideal investment should be 25% ($29.20 usd.)/lb.. Mind you, you will need a lot of gold fingers to offset your chemical/equipment cost beyond a hobby level. You need to figure what amount of material you would need with your process once perfected to lower the total cost/investment of chemical/equipment/source material at 25% or less of final value. It should be 25% for the total source/recover/refinement process, 25% safety net, 25% profit for you, 25% reinvested to scale.
> 
> Edit* Finally, back at the office and not out and about on a phone. My apologies for the edits and multi post due to size of a phone screen.
> Anyways... For these kind of numbers to work, and for this to be viable for you as a business venture on just gold fingers alone (which it shouldn't be JUST gold fingers), the type of quantities we're talking about is not small. You've to figure Ideal numbers are nice, but in reality with the process, 1-1.5 Grams gold / per lb. of gold fingers after potential problems, quality, thickness of plate, etc. Equipment cost to really do this at scale, is not cheap, when you need to do volume. Even if you're to do electrowinning, you could buy a smaller ready to go unit to process, but you're still looking at $7,000 per electrowinning unit, not including a single thing else. It would take you about 110-120 lbs. of gold fingers for free to cover the cost of that one piece of equipment with absolutely no other cost coming out. Cost of refining is usually a trade secret, which why I suggested you figure out what the cost of your process is not including your raw material, to produce a troy ounce (31.1035 grams), how long it takes you, and how much you value your time at. Take the value of the ounce, minus the chemical cost, then divide the remaining total by 31.1035, the number you get is your absolute max you can spend, per pound, before losing money.


Thank you for the response and the figures! Ideally I wouldn't want the business to be just gold fingers alone, I just figured that gold fingers might be a good starting point until I can find more/better material. May not be looking to be the best place to start now lol


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## icejj (Feb 6, 2022)

orvi said:


> This is very risky type venture. Depending on how you see it - as a funny hobby with possibility to make some buck/or lose it, or as a business opportunity with aim of making cash.
> 2g/lb of fingers is yield on the higher end. This happen when you get some good hard plated older stuff. Newer fingers like RAM fingers do not run that high. Sometimes you are quite grateful for 1,5g/kg, not 4.
> Material would probably vary from batch to batch, as every finger is unique and I doubt it will come from one type of device all the time. I don´t know if I personally go like this. Could be a losing game.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips! Your last two paragraphs are really close to what I was thinking about before I created the post.


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## icejj (Feb 6, 2022)

niks neims said:


> You know, there probably is a reason why, for example, boardsort pays 40$/lb
> 
> Also be carefull - sometimes scammers will try to sell you ENIG plating as "fingers", from LCD boards for example...


You know, you might be on to something  lol 

Thanks for the tip. I actually opted out of buying a few pounds of fingers from someone else a few months ago because some pieces were obviously not fingers smh


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 6, 2022)

icejj said:


> Thank you for the response and the figures! Ideally I wouldn't want the business to be just gold fingers alone, I just figured that gold fingers might be a good starting point until I can find more/better material. May not be looking to be the best place to start now lol


You're welcome. Figures are definitely a nice thing to have. If you can get the material, it's good thing to start with and perfect your process. It's very similar to the type of material you'll want to run. Older ceramic cpus, bga, eproms, ic, etc. If the guy is willing to work with you, he could be a great contact, and partner to have in your corner. Especially if he's willing to share his contacts with you. If he has that kind of money, then you need to invest the time and build the relationship with him.
As far as sourcing material, it can be difficult for most. Start thinking outside the box, with 57 million tonnes and counting of e-waste produced every year, you're bound to think of something that someone else hasn't.


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## icejj (Feb 6, 2022)

AMS-Pro said:


> You say "I have a potential partnership in the making, with someone who can supply me with gold fingers.", is that only as a source, or is he willing to be more invested in the process?


As of right now, only as a source.


AMS-Pro said:


> But even at $40 usd. (slightly above 33%) that's a lot to give to just a source. you could go 50/50 on it, but the reason of 33% is 1/3 for him, 1/3 for you, 1/3 for the process and miscellaneous. The process being dangerous as it is, you have more of the risk. If you're really doing a partnership in that sense with him, you shouldn't be buying the material upfront, you should be splitting the end result. His material, your time, risk, with chemical/equipment cost deducted first then the final result split.
> 
> At this point you're getting into the toll refining trade, so it could be you take 10%-15% of final product after the Cost of the process is deducted. But usually you have to have a spread sheet already set up, and the ability to do an expected analysis, which is not possible with only 1 lb. if we're talking about some serious volume. Estimated yes, basing on average yes, accurate on large volume with only 1 lb. no.


Thanks! These are definitely things that should/will be considered.



AMS-Pro said:


> I know what information I can give you from my part of the industry as I just did. But you're going need several people on here for the more chemical side of it for sure to average the cost of your process, but all of that goes back to cost of refining, and people, including myself, tend to be really reserved when it comes to letting that information out as that is our lively hood and how we are able to stay in business.


Understandable. I was a little on the fence about making the post in general because I didn't want anyone to feel like I was asking for too much info. That's why I simply kept it at asking for people's opinion on a minimum profit amount per pound, without trying to have folks dive into too much detail, as I know that much of the other stuff I would need to figure it out on my own. The responses and tips so far are the type I'm looking for!


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## Dougplogan (Feb 6, 2022)

It's gonna be hard buying them at $40 a pound. On eBay they sell for over $100 a pound. Not trying to be a Debbie downer or anything but also I've done a few pounds of fingers from rams and I've never been able to get 2 grams. I read that every where but have at most gotten 1.4 grams.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 6, 2022)

icejj said:


> Understandable. I was a little on the fence about making the post in general because I didn't want anyone to feel like I was asking for too much info. That's why I simply kept it at asking for people's opinion on a minimum profit amount per pound, without trying to have folks dive into too much detail, as I know that much of the other stuff I would need to figure it out on my own. The responses and tips so far are the type I'm looking for!


You worded your initial post well enough. The information you were asking for was pretty generalized.


icejj said:


> So based on chemical costs and waste treatment costs, etc., I am curious as to a minimum amount of profit per pound that some of the members on the forum would come up with after getting a yield on a 1lb "test" batch. A minimum amount of profit that one would feel would make purchasing and processing such material worthwhile. Thanks!


Had you not asked it the way you did, as based on, and instead had asked for the costs, I believe that would've been the difference in how people took your initial post, so again, you worded it well enough. 

I'm glad you were able to get the information you wanted.


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## icejj (Feb 7, 2022)

Dougplogan said:


> It's gonna be hard buying them at $40 a pound. On eBay they sell for over $100 a pound. Not trying to be a Debbie downer or anything but also I've done a few pounds of fingers from rams and I've never been able to get 2 grams. I read that every where but have at most gotten 1.4 grams.


I'd rather hear the truth and realistic expectations than to get my hopes up and waste money, so don't worry about being a "Debbie downer" lol Thanks for your response!


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## niks neims (Feb 7, 2022)

icejj said:


> I'd rather hear the truth and realistic expectations than to get my hopes up and waste money, so don't worry about being a "Debbie downer" lol Thanks for your response!


Well in that case consider the following:
Removing fingers could be losing proposition in the first place: very rarely you can remove fingers (or chips, mlcc or other components, for that matter) without seriously downgrading source material - sure there is an odd finger on brown board (server PSU boards), peripheral (I've taken some off of from rare printer boards) or some MBs... but no way it would amount to any serious volume)... main finger donors will be RAM and slot cards - and there is a lot (most) PMs to be recoverd there after removing fingers - only now the material has been made considerably worse... And large processing plant is much better equipped to recover those values (in some cases unrealistic to do for small refiner).
Sure, there is a place for "cherry picking" and finger, chip and CPU small scale recovery, but it is more of a niche opportunity, a side venue of larger e-waste stream. I don't know about "your" guy, there could be logistical considerations or even unethical ones (hopefully not) but I would not consider it a good idea to build a business on recovering e-waste scrapings alone, not only you are competing against larger scale refineries, you are also paying for useless (counterproductive) manual labor of someone removing those fingers - what's the point?

Best thing about e-waste - its mostly free (at the consumer point)


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## orvi (Feb 7, 2022)

niks neims said:


> Well in that case consider the following:
> Removing fingers could be losing proposition in the first place: very rarely you can remove fingers (or chips, mlcc or other components, for that matter) without seriously downgrading source material - sure there is an odd finger on brown board (server PSU boards), peripheral (I've taken some off of from rare printer boards) or some MBs... but no way it would amount to any serious volume)... main finger donors will be RAM and slot cards - and there is a lot (most) PMs to be recoverd there after removing fingers - only now the material has been made considerably worse... And large processing plant is much better equipped to recover those values (in some cases unrealistic to do for small refiner).
> Sure, there is a place for "cherry picking" and finger, chip and CPU small scale recovery, but it is more of a niche opportunity, a side venue of larger e-waste stream. I don't know about "your" guy, there could be logistical considerations or even unethical ones (hopefully not) but I would not consider it a good idea to build a business on recovering e-waste scrapings alone, not only you are competing against larger scale refineries, you are also paying for useless (counterproductive) manual labor of someone removing those fingers - what's the point?
> 
> Best thing about e-waste - its mostly free (at the consumer point)


In many countries, the "DIY" recycling business at some random garage on outskirts of town is on boarderline of barely legal/illegal activity. And so is managing e-waste without license. So the material isn´t flowing that much from official facilities, but from private business, where owners are more prone to go against the rules and sell some stuff to practically anybody who pay better price. For him, the stuff is free, so any extra buck which is worth the risk of doing such a thing is good for him.

As individual without the help of e-waste collecting facilities, you will need very very large net of "sub-contractors" to fill your crates with good stuff. It requires quite a lot of labor as you say to manually cherrypick the good stuff from big piles of e-waste at some facility. And even more work as you say for preparing the stuff (like trimming fingers, removing chips or BGAs). 

You are right on the point, that for large scale well-tuned process, the manual sorting and cherrypicking/preparation is not needed, as the furnance and shredder will do a great job on practically any material thrown in. But for the small guy, who want to refine the stuff, this is beyond doable in the backyard. So he must be willing to accept higher price and pay the "unnecessary" work just for the possibility to proceed with his simple route.
If its worth it, depend on the point of wiew.


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## icejj (Feb 7, 2022)

niks neims said:


> Well in that case consider the following:
> Removing fingers could be losing proposition in the first place: very rarely you can remove fingers (or chips, mlcc or other components, for that matter) without seriously downgrading source material - sure there is an odd finger on brown board (server PSU boards), peripheral (I've taken some off of from rare printer boards) or some MBs... but no way it would amount to any serious volume)... main finger donors will be RAM and slot cards - and there is a lot (most) PMs to be recoverd there after removing fingers - only now the material has been made considerably worse... And large processing plant is much better equipped to recover those values (in some cases unrealistic to do for small refiner).
> Sure, there is a place for "cherry picking" and finger, chip and CPU small scale recovery, but it is more of a niche opportunity, a side venue of larger e-waste stream. I don't know about "your" guy, there could be logistical considerations or even unethical ones (hopefully not) but I would not consider it a good idea to build a business on recovering e-waste scrapings alone, not only you are competing against larger scale refineries, you are also paying for useless (counterproductive) manual labor of someone removing those fingers - what's the point?
> 
> Best thing about e-waste - its mostly free (at the consumer point)


Very good info for me to consider. I never thought about it like this.


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## icejj (Feb 7, 2022)

orvi said:


> In many countries, the "DIY" recycling business at some random garage on outskirts of town is on boarderline of barely legal/illegal activity. And so is managing e-waste without license. So the material isn´t flowing that much from official facilities, but from private business, where owners are more prone to go against the rules and sell some stuff to practically anybody who pay better price. For him, the stuff is free, so any extra buck which is worth the risk of doing such a thing is good for him.
> 
> As individual without the help of e-waste collecting facilities, you will need very very large net of "sub-contractors" to fill your crates with good stuff. It requires quite a lot of labor as you say to manually cherrypick the good stuff from big piles of e-waste at some facility. And even more work as you say for preparing the stuff (like trimming fingers, removing chips or BGAs).
> 
> ...


Based on what you said and what Neiks neims said, some things that I have experienced so far (although I've only had a few experiences trying to buy this stuff) are starting to make sense.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 7, 2022)

niks neims said:


> Sure, there is a place for "cherry picking" and finger, chip and CPU small scale recovery, but it is more of a niche opportunity, a side venue of larger e-waste stream.


This is very true. Especially when getting regular shipments in, and is something I do personally. In my instance, most of the material that comes in has to be shredded, however, I do get smaller loads, or am allowed from the source to pull some pieces for my personal stockpile before the rest goes in the shredding equipment. The smaller loads that come in get the best stuff sorted out, and added to the personal stockpile, the rest goes to various board buyers, as I'm not usually required by those sources to shred.


orvi said:


> As individual without the help of e-waste collecting facilities, you will need very very large net of "sub-contractors" to fill your crates with good stuff. It requires quite a lot of labor as you say to manually cherrypick the good stuff from big piles of e-waste at some facility. And even more work as you say for preparing the stuff (like trimming fingers, removing chips or BGAs).


This is a very good point made as well. The original poster seems to have the ability to find a potential decent source, so that's a good start.


icejj said:


> Based on what you said and what Neiks neims said, some things that I have experienced so far (although I've only had a few experiences trying to buy this stuff) are starting to make sense.


It is very difficult to break into the business, finding your sources are key. You will have to fight for it, because a lot of businesses, including mine already have them as a contact, and have the equipment/facility/etc.. What you should focus on is making contacts, and partnerships. I would locate people near you that have the equipment to handle the end process, and the licenses, then I would go out and look for odd sources that are outside the box. The best sources are larger facilities like warehouses, offices, or store fronts with high turnover rates of their product. Another route you could take, is say, find someone with the shredding equipment, and work out a deal to be a collection point for that business. You would need a dedicated space for a bin to be placed, the bin could be the size of a 10 yard dumpster. If you're residential, you may need to make that dedicated area the garage, as to not be unsightly. You will have specifics in place of what you take in, how take them in, what you have to reject, and so on and so on. Once you're able to display you can do this for a company that has the equipment, and partner up, they can usually extend their license in some aspects to you, as technically you would be working for them.
If you end up doing this, you would most likely only take in laptops, desktops, occasional server/networking equipment, routers, dvrs, cable boxes. Only as a collection point though, no money exchange, not buying it from people, and unless you work it out with the business you're partnered with, you're not allowed to keep any of the equipment brought in. It's gets very technical, and is advisable to have a thorough daily record of what is brought in, and recorded camera coverage to be able to show the business. Things you would not take are tvs, monitors, printers, batteries, anything with chemicals, or capable of causing harm if improperly stored for almost any reason.

One other route you could take, is get a resale license, and only advertise as buying used equipment, you will have to still have a place that you're able to prove that you took equipment to for proper disposal if you do anything beyond selling the equipment as it is. the places could be various board buying facilities or operations like mine, but the places must have the licenses to do it.

Just food for thought.


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## silversaddle1 (Feb 7, 2022)

IDK, the part about removing fingers and devaluing the product. Not in all cases. There are some really good finger cards that can go into the telecom grade even with the fingers removed. Also, power supplies from lots of enterprise equipment have gold finger connectors these days. These sell for the same price around here with or without the fingers. At one time, we trimmed fingers off everything that came thru. Not so much anymore. Time and energy runs lower now. Still have a bunch of fingers though. MAybe someday.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 7, 2022)

silversaddle1 said:


> IDK, the part about removing fingers and devaluing the product. Not in all cases. There are some really good finger cards that can go into the telecom grade even with the fingers removed. Also, power supplies from lots of enterprise equipment have gold finger connectors these days. These sell for the same price around here with or without the fingers. At one time, we trimmed fingers off everything that came thru. Not so much anymore. Time and energy runs lower now. Still have a bunch of fingers though. MAybe someday.


Lord man, you have me going back to work over here, and digging through my stockpile for examples. I was just sitting down and enjoying my coffee.

Here's a picture of what I believe Silversaddle1 is referring to for reference. 

Edit* I just realized it looks a little blurry when zoomed in. If you want a better picture closer up, let me know.


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## silversaddle1 (Feb 8, 2022)

AMS-Pro said:


> Lord man, you have me going back to work over here, and digging through my stockpile for examples. I was just sitting down and enjoying my coffee.
> 
> Here's a picture of what I believe Silversaddle1 is referring to for reference.
> 
> Edit* I just realized it looks a little blurry when zoomed in. If you want a better picture closer up, let me know.


Correct.


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## icejj (Feb 8, 2022)

AMS-Pro said:


> It is very difficult to break into the business, finding your sources are key. You will have to fight for it, because a lot of businesses, including mine already have them as a contact, and have the equipment/facility/etc.. What you should focus on is making contacts, and partnerships. I would locate people near you that have the equipment to handle the end process, and the licenses, then I would go out and look for odd sources that are outside the box. The best sources are larger facilities like warehouses, offices, or store fronts with high turnover rates of their product. Another route you could take, is say, find someone with the shredding equipment, and work out a deal to be a collection point for that business. You would need a dedicated space for a bin to be placed, the bin could be the size of a 10 yard dumpster. If you're residential, you may need to make that dedicated area the garage, as to not be unsightly. You will have specifics in place of what you take in, how take them in, what you have to reject, and so on and so on. Once you're able to display you can do this for a company that has the equipment, and partner up, they can usually extend their license in some aspects to you, as technically you would be working for them.
> If you end up doing this, you would most likely only take in laptops, desktops, occasional server/networking equipment, routers, dvrs, cable boxes. Only as a collection point though, no money exchange, not buying it from people, and unless you work it out with the business you're partnered with, you're not allowed to keep any of the equipment brought in. It's gets very technical, and is advisable to have a thorough daily record of what is brought in, and recorded camera coverage to be able to show the business. Things you would not take are tvs, monitors, printers, batteries, anything with chemicals, or capable of causing harm if improperly stored for almost any reason.
> 
> One other route you could take, is get a resale license, and only advertise as buying used equipment, you will have to still have a place that you're able to prove that you took equipment to for proper disposal if you do anything beyond selling the equipment as it is. the places could be various board buying facilities or operations like mine, but the places must have the licenses to do it.
> ...


This was very helpful! Thanks a ton for your response, as this is a great starting point for me. Especially the licensing aspect.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 9, 2022)

icejj said:


> This was very helpful! Thanks a ton for your response, as this is a great starting point for me. Especially the licensing aspect.


You're welcome, options are good. The licensing/certification aspect is definitely important, it's what will get you recurring source material with bigger companies. Some key things to be prepared for: have comfortable boots, a good coffeemaker, a comfortable chair, a lot of phone calls, and a lot of leg work because face time in real life is important.


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## silver1 (Feb 9, 2022)

I get 20% to toll refine fingers. I'm doing 100 lbs now. 1 gal of hcl per 10 lbs materials.
10 gallons total hcl. X $6 gal = $60. Set it and forget it so time wise... 2hr. Filtering the foils.... 2hrs.
AR phase... dissolving, filtering..... 2-3 hrs. Chemicals.... $25-$30. 
Average yield 2 grams/lb. This is because some will be higher in yield, some will be lower, but on a large lot figure 2 grams/lb. Total yield = 200 grams. Fee @ 20% = 40 grams. Current spot price = $1834. Total revenue from fingers = $2358. Total chemical cost say $100. Total time say 8 hours.
Total revenue after cost $2258. 
Revenue / hours worked = $295 per hr. After that a few more expenses, but still dam good money with 0% risk on my part!


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## orvi (Feb 10, 2022)

silver1 said:


> I get 20% to toll refine fingers. I'm doing 100 lbs now. 1 gal of hcl per 10 lbs materials.
> 10 gallons total hcl. X $6 gal = $60. Set it and forget it so time wise... 2hr. Filtering the foils.... 2hrs.
> AR phase... dissolving, filtering..... 2-3 hrs. Chemicals.... $25-$30.
> Average yield 2 grams/lb. This is because some will be higher in yield, some will be lower, but on a large lot figure 2 grams/lb. Total yield = 200 grams. Fee @ 20% = 40 grams. Current spot price = $1834. Total revenue from fingers = $2358. Total chemical cost say $100. Total time say 8 hours.
> ...


Sad that toll refining do not work much here. People simply do not have the trust needed. Only very trusted guys doing things that not to much others can extract/do properly (like MLCCs, PGMs, high temp smelting etc.). Because hoarders and buyers of such waste have no other option. Tolls are various here, from 10-30%, depending on material.
More common is refining for fixed ammount of money, say 10-100euros for processing kilo of something. And also it does not work very good here  exactly the same reasons.
So any noob is doing everything on his own, want to know everything from you, see you working... Sometimes it gets annoying with people who completely lack any chemistry knowledge and skills, in addition with short memory  They just see the money, money, money. I stopped doing this pretty much.


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## Yggdrasil (Feb 10, 2022)

silver1 said:


> I get 20% to toll refine fingers. I'm doing 100 lbs now. 1 gal of hcl per 10 lbs materials.
> 10 gallons total hcl. X $6 gal = $60. Set it and forget it so time wise... 2hr. Filtering the foils.... 2hrs.
> AR phase... dissolving, filtering..... 2-3 hrs. Chemicals.... $25-$30.
> Average yield 2 grams/lb. This is because some will be higher in yield, some will be lower, but on a large lot figure 2 grams/lb. Total yield = 200 grams. Fee @ 20% = 40 grams. Current spot price = $1834. Total revenue from fingers = $2358. Total chemical cost say $100. Total time say 8 hours.
> ...


Nice indeed.
Love it.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 10, 2022)

silver1 said:


> I get 20% to toll refine fingers. I'm doing 100 lbs now. 1 gal of hcl per 10 lbs materials.
> 10 gallons total hcl. X $6 gal = $60. Set it and forget it so time wise... 2hr. Filtering the foils.... 2hrs.
> AR phase... dissolving, filtering..... 2-3 hrs. Chemicals.... $25-$30.
> Average yield 2 grams/lb. This is because some will be higher in yield, some will be lower, but on a large lot figure 2 grams/lb. Total yield = 200 grams. Fee @ 20% = 40 grams. Current spot price = $1834. Total revenue from fingers = $2358. Total chemical cost say $100. Total time say 8 hours.
> ...


Good spreadsheet, and numbers. Do you do a gold purity analysis?

​


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 10, 2022)

orvi said:


> Sad that toll refining do not work much here. People simply do not have the trust needed. Only very trusted guys doing things that not to much others can extract/do properly (like MLCCs, PGMs, high temp smelting etc.). Because hoarders and buyers of such waste have no other option. Tolls are various here, from 10-30%, depending on material.
> More common is refining for fixed ammount of money, say 10-100euros for processing kilo of something. And also it does not work very good here  exactly the same reasons.
> So any noob is doing everything on his own, want to know everything from you, see you working... Sometimes it gets annoying with people who completely lack any chemistry knowledge and skills, in addition with short memory  They just see the money, money, money. I stopped doing this pretty much.


The trust is usually the problem, there's so many toll refiners with an immoral compass ready to take advantage of the uninformed. I like hard data, even if it's references/averages, but it's sets an expectation. I will say that I do an initial walkthrough, just to see the setup, if it's safe/clean, and a shortened walkthrough of the process, just to verify they will be successful. It's not necessarily the specific process or chemicals used that matters to me, but how their shortened walkthrough is worded or explained is what matters. You can tell if they will know how to solve a problem that may arise, or if they will have a secondary solution if a piece of equipment fails, and has downtime. Basically if they person is fluent in the process. When I'm consulted to do a performance audit in industrial operations, I look for the weak points, and how they can be resolved. I do the same when dealing with any operation initially that involves my material/time/money. If I see an issue/s beforehand, I will point it out, if I'm provided with a satisfactory resolve or explanation, then I'm content, and will commence on the business transaction. If the setup is sitting on a piece of raggedy plywood, with household items, and yard equipment in the corner, I'm going to be weary in my confidence of doing business with the person.


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## silver1 (Feb 10, 2022)

AMS-Pro said:


> Good spreadsheet, and numbers. Do you do a gold purity analysis?
> 
> ​


No! The only analysis i do is testing for presence of metals. Purity analysis is at the clients discretion. Performing the proper procedures and following guidelines assures the purity. It's not as simple as that, but it really is. I can't remember but maybe once or twice i got out of wack with the purity and that was always traced to faults in the procedural or processing methods and i knew at the time i was making the mistake. Those mistakes were and always will be correct free of charge with no liability on the clients part. You don't have to be a chemist, or a rocket scientist to refine. Nor do you need a whole bunch of fancy equipment and a million dollar operation. You need knowledge and discipline above all. I have a 9th grade education and a desire to succeed. Everything i learn i learn right here! Listen to the wisdom and gain the experience through methodical discipline and procedures and the rest is opportunity and hard work with an emphasis on loyalty to your clients and honesty. No one has ever been to my processing faulty i don't care how big of a client you are. Security security security is the #1 priority above all else. When a client ask to tour my facility i politely decline and explain to them that to do so would jeopardize the security of my other clients as well as their security. Those who understand, respect that and those that don't can keep moving right along. My client list comes from the fact that i offer stellar service to my clients in the way of accountability and security. I've built my reputation on it. Maybe had one unsatisfied customer in 13 years and they were a nut job to begin with. I qualify all my clients and not all money is good money.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 10, 2022)

silver1 said:


> No! The only analysis i do is testing for presence of metals. Purity analysis is at the clients discretion. Performing the proper procedures and following guidelines assures the purity. It's not as simple as that, but it really is. I can't remember but maybe once or twice i got out of wack with the purity and that was always traced to faults in the procedural or processing methods and i knew at the time i was making the mistake. Those mistakes were and always will be correct free of charge with no liability on the clients part. You don't have to be a chemist, or a rocket scientist to refine. Nor do you need a whole bunch of fancy equipment and a million dollar operation. You need knowledge and discipline above all. I have a 9th grade education and a desire to succeed. Everything i learn i learn right here! Listen to the wisdom and gain the experience through methodical discipline and procedures and the rest is opportunity and hard work with an emphasis on loyalty to your clients and honesty. No one has ever been to my processing faulty i don't care how big of a client you are. Security security security is the #1 priority above all else. When a client ask to tour my facility i politely decline and explain to them that to do so would jeopardize the security of my other clients as well as their security. Those who understand, respect that and those that don't can keep moving right along. My client list comes from the fact that i offer stellar service to my clients in the way of accountability and security. I've built my reputation on it. Maybe had one unsatisfied customer in 13 years and they were a nut job to begin with. I qualify all my clients and not all money is good money.


I will definitely agree about the security aspect, that is most certainly a very important aspect with many of my industrial clients. It is also why I have to sign an NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) with almost every single Industrial/commercial warehouse operation I have been involved with. There's maybe 4-5 now that I haven't had to, but they were also in the setup process of a new warehouse, and not in production stage yet. What I can tell you with some of the contracts is that they can be..... difficult, especially government contracts. A lot of my clients like hard data, but I can't blame them. Loyalty and honesty with client is important, and necessary, I'm glad you have your moral right on that. It seems like you're doing pretty great with your process with only 1 negative in 13 years, great job. I hope you reach your goals that you set, and that you achieve the dreams you have.


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## silver1 (Feb 11, 2022)

Never had the need to sign a contract. At least not in this industry. Especially when the "G" word is involved! Never needed them folks.... don't want to deal with it. Everything i do is on a hand shake and my good word. My granddaddy taught me when i was young. A man is only as good as his word and his word is his oath. You can lose everything in this world that holds value, but never ever lose your honor. It's not about them, it's about you! Of course granddaddy was a ridge runner!


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 11, 2022)

silver1 said:


> Never had the need to sign a contract. At least not in this industry. Especially when the "G" word is involved! Never needed them folks.... don't want to deal with it. Everything i do is on a hand shake and my good word. My granddaddy taught me when i was young. A man is only as good as his word and his word is his oath. You can lose everything in this world that holds value, but never ever lose your honor. It's not about them, it's about you! Of course granddaddy was a ridge runner!


It does boil down to that, a hand shake, and your word. Courteousness, and traditional. That's the wonderful part about this industry, there are many paths that are able to be taken, to get to the final goal. Whether it's keeping e-waste out of the landfill, mining ore, repurposing artifacts of time that are in the form of* silver*ware, there are so many things in this industry that relies on tradition. Thank you for reminding all of us of that. 

Again, your numbers are pretty good, you seem to be doing well. Keep safe in your process, and I'll be rooting for you.


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## Liquidau (Mar 4, 2022)

silver1 said:


> Never had the need to sign a contract. At least not in this industry. Especially when the "G" word is involved! Never needed them folks.... don't want to deal with it. Everything i do is on a hand shake and my good word. My granddaddy taught me when i was young. A man is only as good as his word and his word is his oath. You can lose everything in this world that holds value, but never ever lose your honor. It's not about them, it's about you! Of course granddaddy was a ridge runner!


Bravo Silver1, you’re à crédit to our industry. How many handshake deals can any of us remember? Rare, but tremendous when you have it. Like in the diamond business. Handshakes on $100,000 stones.


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