# Taking apart this machine piece by piece



## PreciousMexpert (Feb 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6x9fN-AX-Y
For starters what is the reaction vessel in this machine 
I remember someone saying titanium could that be true


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## Frankk12 (Feb 12, 2011)

What is the blue barrel and why is he putting in the tube there
How about the scrubbers would it be only lye and water in there or would he have those scrubber balls or some other thing


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## Drewbie (Feb 12, 2011)

The blue barrel had HCl in it and he's sucking it up into the machine with the tube. likewise the other container with HNO3 in it.


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## golddie (Feb 13, 2011)

I don't know why they have gas for boiling the reaction vessel instead of electric heat


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## golddie (Feb 13, 2011)

What would be the size of the blower for a unit like this
He has 3 scrubbers and they look like 3 feet long and 12 inches in diameter


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## Refiner232121 (Feb 13, 2011)

What would be inside of the control panel.
Also on top of one of the scrubber there is some kind of a gauge
Is it there to measure the pressure in the scrubber but the air is going to come out anyway from the exhaust hole so why have a gauge


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## Drewbie (Feb 13, 2011)

golddie said:


> I don't know why they have gas for boiling the reaction vessel instead of electric heat



In many countries, gas heating is far cheaper than electric. And more reliable.


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## golddie (Feb 14, 2011)

> Also on top of one of the scrubber there is some kind of a gauge
> Is it there to measure the pressure in the scrubber but the air is going to come out anyway from the exhaust hole so why have a gauge


To regulate the scrubbers exhaust path.
This way you can open the path and close it according to the amount of the pH level of the solution .
I am not an expert on this but this is the best way I can explain this


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## golddie (Feb 15, 2011)

I am thinking if it is really necessary to have a meter on top of one of the scrubbers
I have seen an Italian company that has a complete system and it is a bigger system and they don't have a meter on the scrubber


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## Frankk12 (Feb 17, 2011)

What would be the cost of making a machine like this.
You have the body that is in plastic ,the scrubbers,pH meter,control panel,tubes, valves
I don't see a need for an engineer for something like this


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## HAuCl4 (Feb 17, 2011)

Is that vessel made of kryptonite or unobtainium?. :lol:


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## PreciousMexpert (Feb 17, 2011)

> What would be the cost of making a machine like this.
> You have the body that is in plastic ,the scrubbers,pH meter,control panel,tubes, valves
> I don't see a need for an engineer for something like this


$1000.00 USD
I think he wants $65,000 USD for that machine


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## goldenchild (Feb 17, 2011)

HAuCl4 said:


> Is that vessel made of kryptonite or unobtainium?. :lol:



It's clearly made of Adamantium :roll:


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## joem (Feb 17, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > Is that vessel made of kryptonite or unobtainium?. :lol:
> ...


 :lol:


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## HAuCl4 (Feb 18, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > Is that vessel made of kryptonite or unobtainium?. :lol:
> ...



Either that or Cantaffordium. :lol:


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## HAuCl4 (Feb 18, 2011)

I have yet to see one of these "gold refining machines" that is not a scam at some level or another. $65,000.00 whew!. :shock:

Especially when the amount of gold they are showing in the video can be refined in a couple of cooking pots from a kitchen for less than $100 in equipment.

"If you can't convince them, confuse them." and "There is a sucker born every minute."

here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98fJ8-4qKkQ&feature=related

Look at the gymnastics in the video to refine maybe 5 Oz... have to laugh. :lol:


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## PreciousMexpert (Feb 18, 2011)

HAuCl4 
I think it does fall into the category of being a scam.


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## 4metals (Feb 18, 2011)

That unit does look kind of cheezy, there was a time when I thought all of the "refining machines" I've seen were kind of gimmicky. Last week I had the opportunity to visit the Italimpianti Orafi facility in Arezzo Italy and while I was there I saw some very nice, well made, functional pieces of acid refining equipment. For a guy just knocking out karat gold they make some impressive systems. Check out their tumbler plant for karat refining. http://www.italimpianti.it/ing/italimpianti.html They come in all sizes and configurations. 

These units are excellent for a guy producing fine gold from karat scrap in quantity. Not that you can't get the same quality in buckets in a hood if you know what you're doing, but for those who want a quick start and can afford it, the tumbler plants are very nice.


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## HAuCl4 (Feb 18, 2011)

Those do look a lot better 4metals, and they look more like modular "mini-plants" that include separate scrubber, etc, etc. They are probably very expensive, knowing the italians, but they probably comply with all european regulations and are like a "turn-key" engineering solution. Maybe for someone with a lot of material to refine and little time to learn?. They probably get the job done well. The .pdf is nice for someone interested in building reactors and scrubbers, etc. Nothing that is not in this forum in one thread or another, though. The nicest thing is the italians have it compact and neat and modular. 8)

Little value for a bucket refiner like me. I'm downsizing to cast iron pots for 996+ products and used champagne bottles for 9999+ "demanding clients". :lol: 
http://whatscookingamerica.net/Information/CastIronPans.htm


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## Refiner232121 (Feb 19, 2011)

> tumbler plant for karat refining


We have so much info in this forum that I don't think anyone here would buy that.
Instead of a tumble a person can use one of those vibrating tools


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## Refiner232121 (Feb 19, 2011)

http://www.italimpianti.it/ing/italimpianti.html 
They also have a gauge on the scrubber and I am trying to find out why that is so.


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## 4metals (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't see any gauges on the picture of the fume scrubber, there is a sight glass which has a face that could look like the face of a gauge. The sight glass is like a port hole which allows you to see the liquid flowing over the packing.


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## golddie (Feb 19, 2011)

Hi 4metals 
I think there is a gauge on the machine


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## 4metals (Feb 19, 2011)

The only things you measure on a scrubber are the flow from the pump, so a pressure gauge may be on the plumbing line, and the other thing you measure is the airflow through the scrubber using a velometer. This is measured at the hood opening. 

Some manufacturers put in an instrument to measure the pressure drop across the packing, this is expensive and they usually give you a hard time because they clog up. Straight caustic scrubbers are just backwashed periodically to maintain the airflow. 

I don't believe any of these are on this scrubber but I can be wrong.


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## golddie (Feb 19, 2011)

Hi 4metals
Those meters must be for what you are talking about
If you look on page 1 of the pdf file pasted by HAuCl4
there you have the refining unit with the tumble than the scrubber and what is that machine on the right hand side of the picture.
I am trying to figure that one out but I don't have a clue as to what it might be


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 19, 2011)

golddie said:


> Hi 4metals
> Those meters must be for what you are talking about
> If you look on page 1 of the pdf file pasted by HAuCl4
> there you have the refining unit with the tumble than the scrubber and what is that machine on the right hand side of the picture.
> I am trying to figure that one out but I don't have a clue as to what it might be



Steve, 

I think that is the scrubber for the reactor. The circulating pump is on the bottom front, sight glass top front and thier blower on the top of the unit with the exhaust.


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## 4metals (Feb 19, 2011)

That PDF does show a pressure gauge in the liquid feed line. The unit to the right is what they call a cementation tank and it is where they precipitate the gold. They precipitate with SO2 in the tank, they do not cement with copper as we speak of here on the forum. 

They filter the solution through a PVC filter that rolls around on the floor and in the picture it is parked under the tumbler hood. It draws a vacuum with a double diaphragm pump and pumps the liquid to the next process. After they drop the gold they move the filter under the stand on their cementation tank and filter out the waste from the fine gold.


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## HAuCl4 (Feb 20, 2011)

FWIW if I were to copy or reverse engineer a machine (or part of it, like a scrubber). I'd pick the italian ones, from the website posted by 4metals. Forget about the other 2 videos. Paying retail for it, well not for me, but maybe for others.


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## golddie (Feb 20, 2011)

If I was to design a system like that Italian unit,I would make the cementation tank in the same workplace as where the reaction vessel would be.
All in one place so that you dont have to remove a vessel that has AR or something else and deal with the smell.


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## golddie (Feb 20, 2011)

If you go down to page 7 I think there is a system where you have the reaction vessel and the cementation tank in the same area.
I dont know why they didnt do the same on design on page 1


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## 4metals (Feb 20, 2011)

That system is a static system because the reaction vessel does not tumble, the static systems require silver to be lower to work effectively, the tumbler plants seem to grind away chlorides and effect a more complete reaction. 

The tumbler plants process larger lots but since the liquids are pumped from one closed container to the next the fumes shouldn't be too bad. Except of course for the most discriminating noses!


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## golddie (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi 4metals
There are so many interesting systems on this pdf file.
I am on page 18 and I read the info quickly but I didn't exactly understand what that unit was for, maybe if I read it more carefully it would make sense


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## PreciousMexpert (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi 4metals
It looks like I was interested in refining machines for a while and I had asked about this unit

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=7003


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## 4metals (Feb 20, 2011)

I remember that post, just re-read it and the pieces are what I thought they were. Only difference is now I've seen one standing in front of me and I was impressed with the craftsmanship. 

But you can still do it in buckets.


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## golddie (Feb 22, 2011)

I have built this system of mine and its working very well.
Thanks to my friends here in the forum
Virtual friends to be exact.
If I was to make another one it would be flawless 
Right now I see mistakes on it and I should not have made those mistakes and I cant fix them

For example I placed my blowers on the right hand side of the room when I could have placed them one them left hand side
and this way I would have less curves.

I also learned a lot about installing ventilation systems
I know I need more experience 
I said maybe I can try to find customers that need to have things like this built.
Thanks again


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## goldenchild (Feb 22, 2011)

golddie said:


> I have built this system of mine and its working very well.
> Thanks to my friends here in the forum
> Virtual friends to be exact.
> If I was to make another one it would be flawless
> ...



Have any pictures? I'd like to see pictures of peoples fume hoods and closed systems to get an idea of what I will do once I get room to build one. Come on guys. Heres your chance to show off your creations


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## golddie (Feb 23, 2011)

Hi goldenchild
Till now we have not seen any pictures of a system and I think it can be helpful for future projects.
I will take a few pictures and post them for everyone here.


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## golddie (Feb 24, 2011)

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## golddie (Feb 24, 2011)

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## qst42know (Feb 25, 2011)

golddie

None of your fumes are being scrubbed! 

You connect to the top of your tank with a tee. The fumes will flow straight past the tank to the blower and not enter the tank at all.

Scrap all your plumbing and rebuild like this. You only need (3) 6" elbows and some pipe.

Back view.


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## golddie (Feb 25, 2011)

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## golddie (Feb 25, 2011)

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## Drewbie (Feb 25, 2011)

As qst says, your fumes are not being scrubbed.

You have 2 air paths out of the fume hood - the big MF tubes on top, going straight to the fan, and the small system for direct extraction from beakers that goes to the scrubber.

The scrubber is losing the battle.

To test this, hang one of your extraction tubes in mid air, fire up the system, and light a match about 6 inches underneath the extraction tube and blow it out. Where does the smoke go? Up the extraction tube, or does it divert and go straight up to the big tubes at the top of the fume hood?

Your system looks overly complicated.

A quick way to fix it might be to put a valve in the big tubing coming out of the fume hood. Start closing the valve off until the match smoke goes into the extraction tube instead of bypassing it. Then see if you still ahve fume problems.

One last question - is there air flowing through the scrubber, and if so is it going from top to bottom, or bottom to top?


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## qst42know (Feb 25, 2011)

The flat surfaces on top of your tank are for making plumbing connections.

Here is another way to get the job done. This way would require (4) 6" 90 degree elbows. The bottom of the pipe in the tank should be under the media but above the fluid.


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## golddie (Feb 25, 2011)

Hi Folks 
Thanks for your help

In the big pipes there were major leaks and I sealed them with silicon I spent the whole day on that.
There is already a big difference 
I don't get the smell of lye thanks to qst42know for bringing this to my attention.
The main smoke from the manifold go into the scrubber and the left over fumes don't get scrubbed.


Hi Drewbie
I have a damper like the 4metals model and it is right above the fume hood


> One last question - is there air flowing through the scrubber, and if so is it going from top to bottom, or bottom to top?


The air goes to the bottom of the scrubber and it comes out from the top and goes outside
I think it is working but I have not done any large quantity refining 



> The flat surfaces on top of your tank are for making plumbing connections.


That hole there opens with a screw type of a cap and I need that for maintenance of the sprinkler




> Here is another way to get the job done. This way would require (4) 6" 90 degree elbows. The bottom of the pipe in the tank should be under the media but above the fluid.


I dont know how I can incorporate this idea to my present design
Do I remove those top 2 tubes and replace them with your idea in the picture

I also have the idea of adding 2 bathroom fans like Mikes 

Thanks again


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## golddie (Feb 26, 2011)

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## golddie (Feb 26, 2011)

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## goldnugget77 (Feb 27, 2011)

The gases from these reactions should be treated just like any other deadly gases.
If you have a leak in your welding set than there is a chance for an explosion and in this case there is no explosion but the deadly effects is still there 
This can be in the form of long term illness or even sudden effects.
We have to listen to our bodies for signals
I have heard of people doing cyanide bombing in jewelery and while they do this their noses bleed.
This may sound strange but the immediate signals can be seen in your nose


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## golddie (Mar 1, 2011)

I used the system for small amounts of refining and I think it is working very well.
I have worked in manufacturing at different places and I think this work atmosphere is one the cleanest place so far.
There is a touch of the smell of lye but I think with that green container from wal mart I cant expect much more
There is no smell of acid which is important. 
qst42know said that I should not even have that slight smell of lye 
I don't know if that is realistic
I did a quick research about lye and I think it is not as bad as people think it is.


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## Drewbie (Mar 1, 2011)

If you're smelling fumes, things aren't working properly.

Then you have to worry about the dangerous odourless gasses.


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## qst42know (Mar 1, 2011)

Gold die

You sure are stubborn. If you keep it up you may need that stubborn streak to stubbornly suck oxygen from a bottle.

Have you even read one of these? 

Pay close attention to the sentences that include the word "severe", and "death".

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s4034.htm


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## golddie (Mar 2, 2011)

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## golddie (Mar 2, 2011)

I think I am going to take apart this system and re do everything from scratch.
I will post a drawing and I hope this time I will get it right, and if anyone has any suggestions before I begin construction you can give your idea now.
Thanks


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## Frankk12 (Mar 2, 2011)

It is important that we do not try to take advantage of those who join this forum.
He said there is no smell of fumes and gas, and when nitric or hcl smells we can sense it very easily.
The smell is from lye.
I looked at the Italian machine and the compartment where the lye is stored is sealed.
Also I noticed that the model 4metals designed has the lye container completely open.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
Maybe 4metals will say it is just so you can visualize the idea but I don't see it that way.


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## shyknee (Mar 2, 2011)

golddie is there any reason the scrubber can't be placed outside.

I also believe the fan is not (CFM) sufficient .


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## qst42know (Mar 2, 2011)

golddie mentioned he already has asthma. Because of this preexisting condition I expect he needs to be extra cautious. No design flaws or lapses in craftsmanship.


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## golddie (Mar 4, 2011)

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