# all of the money I'm going to use this month is in the liquid please help



## Melowcoo (Jun 20, 2022)

I dip my stuff 4.5L HCL 1.750L (as mistake not purpose) nitric, ı thought nothing can go wrong this is not a serious thing and it melted other stuffs too and my aqua regia turned green. After this mess ı mixed sodium metabisulfate with water several times and forced it but never worked.

Than ı get angry and tought its becouse nitric acid and decided to add more HCL something happened and ı accidently poor around 2.5 - 3.5 Liters of HCL. I tried sodium metabisulfate one more time and it didnt even taked off Red smoke.

I'm a student and almost all of the money I'm going to use this month is in the liquid right now and I can't save it. 
Please save me, im laughting and crying at the same time.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 20, 2022)

You didn't mention how much, or what kind of "stuff" you put in all that acid.

Acid does not melt metals, it dissolves them.

Did everything dissolve, or were there any solids left?

What did a stannous chloride test tell you?

Did you do anything to deNOX the solution?

Sodium metabisulfate does not precipitate gold. Sodium metabisulfite does.

To recover from your mess, see When In Doubt, Cement It Out, but only if a stannous test says there is gold in the solution. If there were any metals that did not dissolve, your gold probably already cemented out on them.

Dave


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## Melowcoo (Jun 20, 2022)

I'm sorry for my bad english. I thought to mention it before my article, but I gave up on these thoughts because it is not related to the subject. I will be more careful.

There were 7 kilos of green fiber processor (without heat sink) , some pins, and filter papers that I used in my previous separations and that I thought had a satisfactory amount of gold. Filter papers and green fibers left . I do not have the necessary materials for the chloride test, but I can go to buy it tomorrow. I did not do deNOX. 

All this aside, I have now observed that there is precipitation at the bottom of the liquid, whose color is still green. I think it might be because I used too much Sodium metabisulfite. Despite this development, I have not taken any action yet.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 20, 2022)

Get what you need to make stannous chloride. Then test the solution. If it tests negative, as I suspect it will, you can decant the solution off the remaining solids and treat it as toxic waste. Then you can concentrate on the solids, which is where you will probably find your missing gold.

Dave


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## francesco.fg82 (Jun 21, 2022)

Melowcoo said:


> I dip my stuff 4.5L HCL 1.750L (as mistake not purpose) nitric, ı thought nothing can go wrong this is not a serious thing and it melted other stuffs too and my aqua regia turned green. After this mess ı mixed sodium metabisulfate with water several times and forced it but never worked.
> 
> Than ı get angry and tought its becouse nitric acid and decided to add more HCL something happened and ı accidently poor around 2.5 - 3.5 Liters of HCL. I tried sodium metabisulfate one more time and it didnt even taked off Red smoke.
> 
> ...


If you gona spend all your money on liquid spend it on beer


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## VK3NHL (Jun 21, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> You didn't mention how much, or what kind of "stuff" you put in all that acid.
> 
> Acid does not melt metals, it dissolves them.
> 
> ...


Hi all.
I find I really have to say this at this time.
I am always impressed by the long standing members of this forum to ‘newby’s posts’ asking for help.

Never have I heard one of you Put down, be disconcending to anyone who asks a simple question asking for help.
(unless you are from Africa with Gold Bars for “Sell” ) 
I know a lot of questions come from folk whom have watched ‘unsuitable video’s’ from YouTube & gone off half cocked knowing “All” still you all answer and try to help as much as possible.
You are all very special people & are to be commended for all you do.

That’s what makes this forum what it is ‘You’ …..thank you.

Best regards from Down-Under.
Tony


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## VK3NHL (Jun 21, 2022)

You are all worth your weight in Gold!


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## Swissgoldrefiner (Jun 21, 2022)

Melowcoo said:


> I'm sorry for my bad english. I thought to mention it before my article, but I gave up on these thoughts because it is not related to the subject. I will be more careful.
> 
> There were 7 kilos of green fiber processor (without heat sink) , some pins, and filter papers that I used in my previous separations and that I thought had a satisfactory amount of gold. Filter papers and green fibers left . I do not have the necessary materials for the chloride test, but I can go to buy it tomorrow. I did not do deNOX.
> 
> All this aside, I have now observed that there is precipitation at the bottom of the liquid, whose color is still green. I think it might be because I used too much Sodium metabisulfite. Despite this development, I have not taken any action yet.


If you didnt denoxe, it's normal that the gold dont precipitate.
So, when you add the SMB, it takes out the gold, but it dissolve again.


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## Melowcoo (Jun 21, 2022)

Swissgoldrefiner said:


> Denoks yapmadıysanız, altının çökmemesi normaldir.
> Yani SMB'yi eklediğinizde altını çıkarıyor ama yine çözülüyor.


Yes, I think you do too. I went to sleep seeing the sediment forming at night and it was not there when I woke up in the morning. I'm officially out of my mind!! Thank you All that aside, I find you very right when you say yes to VK3NHL  After I started to explore the forum, I discovered that there are a lot of people like me. And I promise you that I will read that damn book over and over again until I'm satisfied. You probably didn't feel the need to repeat it either. 

Finally, I want to ask again because I'm overly stressed. After the DEnox procedure, I can continue with peace of mind, right?

and FrugalRefiner, I couldn't procure the test. But I had saved all the residues I had previously included in the solution and examined each one. The cementation situation you mentioned did not exist, but after your advice, I watched many topics discussed on cementation. I would like to thank all the users of the forum, whether amateur or expert. Thanks to you, I spent 16 hours without sleep in your discussions by integrating with the computer. I don't regret any minute of it.


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## war_child (Jun 21, 2022)

Melowcoo, I believe the problem came from skipping the denox procedure. If you read through the forum threads about denoxing, you will see most people here will suggest using sulfamic acid, and _*not*_ urea. I think the sulfamic acid gets added until the reaction with nitric stops. The sulfamic acid will also drop other junk (lead?) that may be in a solution. It's a good idea to filter after sulfamic acid denox. 

You may very well be able to precipitate your gold with SMB after you denox, but I think you have other options too (see pics). You should look up the "when in doubt, cement it out" link as suggested. You can get gold, silver & pgm's (and mercury?) all to cement out of solution onto pure copper bar/ plate/ wire. The cemented values are then refined. There is much more to it than just that, and I know little about chemistry & toxic waste, so please do your research first, here on the forum. You will get a good idea of how to proceed, then ask any of your procedural questions here _before_ you begin. I'll bet dollars to donuts that some kind, knowledgeable souls here will be happy to answer them, or at least point you in the right direction.

Also: I recommend separating unlike materials before acid digestion. Nitric or acid/peroxide. Gold plated pins that are magnetic should be dissolved separately from non-magnetic, and those should be kept separate from trimmed ram fingers and incinerated IC chips, and so on. All depending on what base metals you are putting into the solution. I probably won't combine anything until I have recovered my gold and I'm ready to further refine it. Furthermore, I feel like I'll have a better grip on my liquid waste storage, and I can better ensure a cleaner AP solution (cucl? cu2?) that can be rejuvenated indefinitely.

Again, I am pretty much new to any kind of lab chemistry on this scale, so please check for yourself before you begin, and I would defer to anyone who may correct anything technical in this post.

You guys do have donuts over there, don't you? Anyway, that's how I would proceed. Good Luck friend! Post your progress
mike


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## Saddiq NG (Jun 22, 2022)

Melowcoo said:


> Yes, I think you do too. I went to sleep seeing the sediment forming at night and it was not there when I woke up in the morning. I'm officially out of my mind!! Thank you All that aside, I find you very right when you say yes to VK3NHL  After I started to explore the forum, I discovered that there are a lot of people like me. And I promise you that I will read that damn book over and over again until I'm satisfied. You probably didn't feel the need to repeat it either.
> 
> Finally, I want to ask again because I'm overly stressed. After the DEnox procedure, I can continue with peace of mind, right?
> 
> and FrugalRefiner, I couldn't procure the test. But I had saved all the residues I had previously included in the solution and examined each one. The cementation situation you mentioned did not exist, but after your advice, I watched many topics discussed on cementation. I would like to thank all the users of the forum, whether amateur or expert. Thanks to you, I spent 16 hours without sleep in your discussions by integrating with the computer. I don't regret any minute of it.


If you are not able to secure the stannous chloride you can improvise by doing one of the following
1. Go to a local electronic and buy a solder. When you buy it bring it home and put it in some hydrochloric acid and leave it for a day. After that you can use the solution as stannous chloride, because it's a solution of tin (stannic) in chlorine.
2. You can test for gold in solution with a clean copper bar, all you have to do is dip the copper bar in the solution and watch closely what happens. If after dipping the bar a dark cloud is beginning to form then there is gold or at least some platinum group metals in your solution. If nothing happens after dipping the bar for about ten seconds, then your gold has probably cemented on the base metals or otherwise.

I know how painful it feels when you loose all your investment to this stuff. I pray you succeed in getting your gold back.


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## Melowcoo (Jun 22, 2022)

Saddiq NG said:


> If you are not able to secure the stannous chloride you can improvise by doing one of the following
> 1. Go to a local electronic and buy a solder. When you buy it bring it home and put it in some hydrochloric acid and leave it for a day. After that you can use the solution as stannous chloride, because it's a solution of tin (stannic) in chlorine.
> 2. You can test for gold in solution with a clean copper bar, all you have to do is dip the copper bar in the solution and watch closely what happens. If after dipping the bar a dark cloud is beginning to form then there is gold or at least some platinum group metals in your solution. If nothing happens after dipping the bar for about ten seconds, then your gold has probably cemented on the base metals or otherwise.
> 
> I know how painful it feels when you loose all your investment to this stuff. I pray you succeed in getting your gold back.


hello saddiq. First of all, thank you very much for your prayers. I guess God is not on my side, now I explain why. As you said, I tested the solution with a copper rod and confirmed that there was gold in the solution. Then I went to buy urea from fertilizer suppliers 10KM from my house so that I could neutralize the solution. I stubbornly asked by visiting 8 different shops, but the answer I got from each was the same. In Turkey, my country of residence, urea sales could only be obtained in sacks of 50KG or more, and even no suppliers kept urea in their stocks, since it functions the same as sugar fertilizer and sugar fertilizer is almost half the price. I went back home and threw the copper rod (300gr) I had done the gold test before and several heat sinks into the solution after they used nitric acid and consumed it. The result is disappointing again... I still have nitric acid in my solution. I gambled on multiplying the money to buy 50kg sacks of urea as a last resort. I lost it all again and I had $10 worth of cash in my pocket. Currently, no chemical product supplier that sells to individuals through the searches I have made does not have sulfamic acid. I think vitamin C worked, but I haven't tried it yet because I thought it was an expensive option. Now my questions are as follows;

alternatively what can i use for neutralization?

What is the weight that should be used to neutralize a 100ml nitric acid with the neutralizer you recommend?

What are the disadvantages it will provide for me in precipitating gold in copper solution around 350gr?

What are the disadvantages of the significantly large SMB in my solution on my 2nd precipitation attempt?


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 22, 2022)

Melowcoo said:


> hello saddiq. First of all, thank you very much for your prayers. I guess God is not on my side, now I explain why. As you said, I tested the solution with a copper rod and confirmed that there was gold in the solution. Then I went to buy urea from fertilizer suppliers 10KM from my house so that I could neutralize the solution. I stubbornly asked by visiting 8 different shops, but the answer I got from each was the same. In Turkey, my country of residence, urea sales could only be obtained in sacks of 50KG or more, and even no suppliers kept urea in their stocks, since it functions the same as sugar fertilizer and sugar fertilizer is almost half the price. I went back home and threw the copper rod (300gr) I had done the gold test before and several heat sinks into the solution after they used nitric acid and consumed it. The result is disappointing again... I still have nitric acid in my solution. I gambled on multiplying the money to buy 50kg sacks of urea as a last resort. I lost it all again and I had $10 worth of cash in my pocket. Currently, no chemical product supplier that sells to individuals through the searches I have made does not have sulfamic acid. I think vitamin C worked, but I haven't tried it yet because I thought it was an expensive option. Now my questions are as follows;
> 
> alternatively what can i use for neutralization?
> 
> ...


First and foremost. You do not neutralize the solution. That means bringing the solution to pH 7
Secondly, Urea is bad for denoxing, it works to a certain degree but not fully.
It can also under certain circumstances create explosive compounds.
Sulfamic Acid is much better. It is used as a grout cleaner, you may find it in shops selling tiles and tile glue/cement.
Sulfamic is used in a hot solution around 70-90 C

The best you can do is to not use too much nitric in the first place.


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## Shark (Jun 22, 2022)

For denoxing l, if you can not access sulfamic acid, you can use heat. Hoke explains it in book fairly well. It can be downloaded on the forum or in Frugalrefiners signature line under his name on any post he has made.


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## Saddiq NG (Jun 22, 2022)

Melowcoo said:


> Shark said:
> 
> 
> > For denoxing l, if you can not access sulfamic acid, you can use heat. Hoke explains it in book fairly well. It can be downloaded on the forum or in Frugalrefiners signature line under his name on any post he has made.
> ...





Melowcoo said:


> hello saddiq. First of all, thank you very much for your prayers. I guess God is not on my side, now I explain why. As you said, I tested the solution with a copper rod and confirmed that there was gold in the solution. Then I went to buy urea from fertilizer suppliers 10KM from my house so that I could neutralize the solution. I stubbornly asked by visiting 8 different shops, but the answer I got from each was the same. In Turkey, my country of residence, urea sales could only be obtained in sacks of 50KG or more, and even no suppliers kept urea in their stocks, since it functions the same as sugar fertilizer and sugar fertilizer is almost half the price. I went back home and threw the copper rod (300gr) I had done the gold test before and several heat sinks into the solution after they used nitric acid and consumed it. The result is disappointing again... I still have nitric acid in my solution. I gambled on multiplying the money to buy 50kg sacks of urea as a last resort. I lost it all again and I had $10 worth of cash in my pocket. Currently, no chemical product supplier that sells to individuals through the searches I have made does not have sulfamic acid. I think vitamin C worked, but I haven't tried it yet because I thought it was an expensive option. Now my questions are as follows;
> 
> alternatively what can i use for neutralization?
> 
> ...


Don't worry you and do not give up you will not loose all your gold. Now that you know at least where your gold is here is what you should do
Urea is not recommended for removing excess nitric acid. It will cause more mess for you especially with this huge amount of acid. Try the following measures to DeNOx nitric acid.
1. Use Sulfamic acid it is the best method recommended here and it's the easiest if you cannot get it then
2. You will have to evaporate your solution. As you are evaporating watch closely if any precipitate is forming. If there are precipitates forming then you should stop the evaporation and filter the solution and save the precipitates regardless of the color as that might be some of your gold. Continue the evaporation until the solution becomes syrupy, colouring red, when that happens, you should add more HCl and you will see the brown fumes of nitric acid expelling. Continue evaporating and filtering the precipitates and adding HCl to expell the nitric until there is no more. After this then you can test again for gold in solution and then recover your gold. If this fails, then
3. There is no choice but for you to get back that your copper back and dip it back in the solution to cement the gold out. Cementation is not like SMB however you have to wait for days or weeks especially with the excess nitric. Put the bars and wait and observe time to time until there is no more fizzling and the solution is dark. You will see your gold at the bottom and on the copper. The gold will be dirty however and you will have to refine again to get it pure. 
I wish you the best of luck and safety in getting your gold back


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## Shark (Jun 22, 2022)

Shark said:


> For denoxing l, if you can not access sulfamic acid, you can use heat. Hoke explains it in book fairly well. It can be downloaded on the forum or in Frugalrefiners signature line under his name on any post he has made.


Correction..This should read:

For denoxing, if you can not access sulfamic acid, you can use heat. Hoke explains it in her book fairly well. It can be downloaded on the forum or in Frugalrefiners signature line, under his name, on any post he has made.


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## Shark (Jun 22, 2022)

Here is the link to Dave's thread on Hoke's book.









Screen Readable Copy of Hoke's Book


About 9 months ago I posted my printer friendly version of Hoke's book. In the process of creating that version I corrected many errors that had been generated by the OCR software when the book was originally digitized. I also rescanned all of the photos and drawings and included some text...




goldrefiningforum.com


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## Melowcoo (Jun 22, 2022)

Thank you all for your help. As a final case, let me explain everything to you. There are 3 main reasons that keep me from the evaporation method. First, I have about 10 liters of solution, because I added about 2 kilos of SMB to the solution with water. I guess I just screwed up because it wasn't going the way I wanted. secondly, I do not have laboratory material (beaker etc.) at my disposal. The solution is now in the plastic container. and 3rd, I do not have an electric stove that can adjust the degree mentioned and give heat.

I ordered urea over the internet, up to 4KG. Although it is not supplied from the store, it is interesting that I did not encounter a legal procedure on the internet. Although many of you do not recommend it, I am considering using urea for DEnox. It won't make a conclusion that I can't go back to, and if you approve. Because I only have money left in my pocket that I can hardly meet even my basic needs, and I am a student. god bless the inventor who found the pasta!!!


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## Shark (Jun 22, 2022)

I used to evaporate in a slow cooker, also known as a crock pot. A gallon jar in the cooker, surrounded by clean sand, and set the heat to high when it only had a low/high/medium switch. I still find them at used stores for $5 to $10US. 

I have never used urea and can be of no help with it. I only know it is not used the same as sulfamic acid is.


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## war_child (Jun 22, 2022)

*Question:* What would happen if he were to just add more copper to the solution? My simple thought is the nitric might consume the available copper until the nitric is spent. If there is still copper bar left undissolved, would the gold then begin to cement out of solution? Would that create some kind of passivation layer on the etched copper? 

Shark spoke of using heat to get rid of the nitric acid, ala C.M. Hoke. I think I remember reading about boiling the solution down to a "syrup". Look for a free, downloadable version of the PM refining book by C.M. Hoke. It is a great source for refining information.

Perhaps you could have made contact with a local farmer. If he stocks urea for fertilizer, you could offer to buy (or trade for) a couple pounds off him... or at least see if he would buy several dozen kg's of urea from _you_. Mabey reach out to any members here that might be in your area. You could possibly share costs with another refiner. Just a thought.

I bought some of this (picture) to make stannous chloride in the future. The recipe is very simple, and can be found in many different threads, from different members with different tips. I've heard of people buying stannous crystals too. I think the crystals get mixed with HCL, then use. That seems like it would be a very easy way to do it.

Do *NOT *dump any chemicals or throw anything away just yet. It is very possible that all/most of the gold you started out with can still be recovered. I think the most helpful thing for you to hear right now is this: Be Patient! Slow down, research this procedure (and the next), use the search bar for help, and ask your lingering questions here, in your post, _before_ you proceed.


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## Shark (Jun 22, 2022)

Do not boil solutions. This cause a loss of gold due to the fine mist it creates. You can test this by boiling a solution that contains gold and covering the container with a paper towel or tissue paper. Stannous test the paper and it most likely will show a positive result. 

Stannous can be made from tin bearing solder or pewter. Both work very well.


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## Saddiq NG (Jun 22, 2022)

Shark said:


> Do not boil solutions. This cause a loss of gold due to the fine mist it creates. You can test this by boiling a solution that contains gold and covering the container with a paper towel or tissue paper. Stannous test the paper and it most likely will show a positive result.
> 
> Stannous can be made from tin bearing solder or pewter. Both work very well.


Interesting, there was a time I tested my solution for gold and it was positive, after evaporation I tested again and it was negative. 
My question is how do I know that my solution is beginning to reach boiling point. I believe the boiling point of aqua regia is different from that of water. 
At times when heating, the beaker used to make some noises. Could that signal the beginning of the boiling point?


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## Shark (Jun 22, 2022)

To evaporate we keep it below boiling. A wide mouth jar in a slow cooker will get it done. The older slow cookers will not get hot enough to boil and is the reason I like them. The key to evaporation is having a large surface area. I use a large dish that can take some heat and warm it on a griddle to around 125F or so. My dish is almost as large as the griddle but shallow. This is the reason for not boiling as a low dish would allow more loss than a tall jar only half full or so. In the case of the OP, who has a large volume, I would lean towards the slow cooker and a wide mouth gallon jar. Nothing in refining should be done in a rush, it allows for to many mistakes. Evaporation is time consuming.


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## Jimbriese (Jun 22, 2022)

Ok so if you have increased the volume I know for sure 4 time the original. (as I just had this happen to me with a small batch the rinses to get the filter to run clear) it will dilute the HCL enough that the SMB will not drop the gold it wouldn’t even fizz when added as powder. All I had to do was add some HCL and then when the dry SMB was added it fizzed like normal and my gold dropped. 
Now if you already have way too much solution you will be way ahead if you evaporate it off to get back to at least the original volume before adding more HCL or you will have a massive amount of waste to deal with.


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## Melowcoo (Jun 25, 2022)

I'm here with the update. I added the urea I bought, but it did not show any reaction. After mixing for a while, bubbles began to form. I think the main reason is that there is too much water in the solution. Then I added SMB. however, the SMB reacted as if it was on fire and left a pungent odor. When I added some more urea, the same bubbles reappeared. I'm stuck again. On top of that, SMB has run out. I have ferrous sulfate on hand. I'm undecided whether to add it or not. I'm here for your ideas.


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## Melowcoo (Jun 25, 2022)

new update:
I carried out the experiment that would report the content of nitric acid or gold with ferrous sulfate. many crystals did not dissolve and I tried to dissolve them by mixing. I couldn't observe anything, maybe I came to the conclusion that the amount of gold was too low because I had separated it with water before. Then I separated about 1 liter of solution and added ferrous sulfate, which I mixed with hot water.


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