# What is this?



## Scottatkinson (Dec 2, 2021)

Hi. This is my first time posting on this forum. Recently I was gifted a bar that was porported to be palladium metal. I did a fire test and it showed no change of color so I brought it to a pawn shop as they have one of those x-ray spectrograph machine. Well it wasn't platinum exactly. I will include a pic of the results but according to my math it contains 5.9 grams of rhodium, 3 grams approximately of palladium and 1 gram of ruthenium. The thing weighs 39.5 grams and is a 10 inch or so bar. It is not plated. I'm wondering if anyone knows what it is from, and what type of value I should expect to get from a refiner. Please note we checked multiple spots on the metal with the x-ray spectrograph and received varying but consistently close to the values I posted.


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## goldandsilver123 (Dec 3, 2021)

That's probably 100% aluminum.
You can check by dip it in sodium hydroxide (lye) solution.


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## Scottatkinson (Dec 3, 2021)

goldandsilver123 said:


> That's probably 100% aluminum.
> You can check by dip it in sodium hydroxide (lye) solution.


Thank you for the response but it is definitely not aluminum. I had it analyzed using an xrf scanner on multiple points of the bar(see results posted in pictures) and it contains no aluminum. It does contain 14.94 percent rh, or rhodium. 6.68 percent pd, or palladium, 9.8 percent au, silver and3.36 pct ru, ruthinium. It also has a lot of iron and zinc and tin. The results from the xrf scanner were pretty much the same. They changed a few tenths of a percent at the various points we tested. I want to sell this thing and according to my math it has around 5 to 6 grams of rhodium, 3 grams of palladium, and 1 gram of ruthinium and 2 grams of silver in the alloy. Looking at today's spot values I'm coming up with a value of around $2,300.00 u.s. dollars. Of which I hope to actually get $1,200.00. I understand the refiner has to make a profit. Am I way off? I have never dealt in any thing like this before. It is a solid u channel bar. It is not plated. Thank you. I don't know where this came from or what industry it was used in. It seems like it is a structural piece, but why would anyone use such a valuable alloy for a structural thing?


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## MicheleM (Dec 3, 2021)

Didn't The pawn shop want it?


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## galenrog (Dec 3, 2021)

An XRF is only as good as the loaded library and calibration. Personally, I do not trust most operators to know this.

Time for more coffee.


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## olawlor (Dec 3, 2021)

goldandsilver123 said:


> That's probably 100% aluminum.
> You can check by dip it in sodium hydroxide (lye) solution.


I agree the picture looks exactly like aluminum, which has a low enough atomic weight it needs a special XRF. 

None of the (probably totally bogus) metals listed in the XRF will react to lye, so fizzing is a clear sign it's aluminum.


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Dec 4, 2021)

Scottatkinson said:


> Thank you for the response but it is definitely not aluminum. I had it analyzed using an xrf scanner on multiple points of the bar(see results posted in pictures) and it contains no aluminum. It does contain 14.94 percent rh, or rhodium. 6.68 percent pd, or palladium, 9.8 percent au, silver and3.36 pct ru, ruthinium. It also has a lot of iron and zinc and tin. The results from the xrf scanner were pretty much the same. They changed a few tenths of a percent at the various points we tested. I want to sell this thing and according to my math it has around 5 to 6 grams of rhodium, 3 grams of palladium, and 1 gram of ruthinium and 2 grams of silver in the alloy. Looking at today's spot values I'm coming up with a value of around $2,300.00 u.s. dollars. Of which I hope to actually get $1,200.00. I understand the refiner has to make a profit. Am I way off? I have never dealt in any thing like this before. It is a solid u channel bar. It is not plated. Thank you. I don't know where this came from or what industry it was used in. It seems like it is a structural piece, but why would anyone use such a valuable alloy for a structural thing?


You've got a little silver and a little palladium, but mostly iron and tin (Fe & Sn). There's only a few grams of precious metals and being mixed with iron and tin will make recovery and refining more expensive than the value of the precious metals. I'm not sure if a refiner would even make an offer.


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## orvi (Dec 4, 2021)

Scottatkinson said:


> Thank you for the response but it is definitely not aluminum. I had it analyzed using an xrf scanner on multiple points of the bar(see results posted in pictures) and it contains no aluminum. It does contain 14.94 percent rh, or rhodium. 6.68 percent pd, or palladium, 9.8 percent au, silver and3.36 pct ru, ruthinium. It also has a lot of iron and zinc and tin. The results from the xrf scanner were pretty much the same. They changed a few tenths of a percent at the various points we tested. I want to sell this thing and according to my math it has around 5 to 6 grams of rhodium, 3 grams of palladium, and 1 gram of ruthinium and 2 grams of silver in the alloy. Looking at today's spot values I'm coming up with a value of around $2,300.00 u.s. dollars. Of which I hope to actually get $1,200.00. I understand the refiner has to make a profit. Am I way off? I have never dealt in any thing like this before. It is a solid u channel bar. It is not plated. Thank you. I don't know where this came from or what industry it was used in. It seems like it is a structural piece, but why would anyone use such a valuable alloy for a structural thing?


cut small piece of it, make some solution of NaOH (lye, like 15-20%), put it inside and observe. if this contains any precious metals or metals listed above, they form a black ppt/sludge. aluminium will react bubbling hydrogen out, very straightforward to observe  
XRF are extremely handy instruments, but they are effective in determination of the elements with higher mass, not the light ones. depends on the quality of machine, but older stuff and "low-end" stuff will read elements reliably from silicon, some are able to catch up aluminium, some even magnesium. lighter the element, less difraction from Xray beam, tougher detection, lower temperature needed to get some reliable accuracy...
but you need to set up the RIGHT MODE for scanning, otherwise machine get confused. many metals have overlayed absorption signals, so sometimes results should be taken just as informal and further testing is required 
for example using mode for precious metals, machine maybe dont scan for light elements (abbreviated commonly as LE in reading). many machines have modes like "geochem", for analyzing ore and rock samples, and they usually give good results if higher percentage of light elements is present. usually at the start of the complex measurement, machine will precisely measure ratio of "heavier metals" first, and after like 10 seconds it "switches" for measuring the lighter elements, giving the precious metal content in ratio with bulk LE or even determining some of lighter elements like Si, K, Al, P etc  this sequence could vary from machine to machine, but it gives you some perspective


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## goldandsilver123 (Dec 4, 2021)

This is an xrf in precious metals mode of a piece of acrylic


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## orvi (Dec 4, 2021)

goldandsilver123 said:


> This is an xrf in precious metals mode of a piece of acrylic


very illustrative for somebody unfamiliar with these techniques


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## galenrog (Dec 4, 2021)

goldandsilver123 said:


> This is an xrf in precious metals mode of a piece of acrylic
> 
> 
> View attachment 47361


A fine example of the limitations of XRF devices. If the correct library is not loaded, the machine guesses based on the library it does have. Most operators I know are ignorant to this. Thank you goldandsilver123 for demonstrating. 

Time for more coffee.


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## Lino1406 (Dec 5, 2021)

This XRF most probably reads aluminum=0


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## Scottatkinson (Jan 31, 2022)

Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge. It is much appreciated.i hope that someday I can be as informed on the subjects posted on this site that I'll be able to answer somebody's questions. Thank you again.


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## samuel-a (Feb 1, 2022)

Before even bothering yourself with XRF, for strange items like that you should really ask your self few questions first:
- What's the background story?
- Does it "feel" light or heavy in your hand?
- Is it magnetic?
- Form and appearance, does it make sense to be made of PM? (your item looks like a structural part)

simple tests:
- Flame test it 
- jewelry acid test
- basic solution test


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## kurtak (Feb 1, 2022)

A couple years ago when some of us got together at Jon's over in England Goran brought a piece of arsenic ore with him - we shot it with Jon's XRF 

The XRF made the "false" claim that the arsenic was iridium

here is a link to that false reading









False Iridium finds


Guys A few know but it's not been publicised however Deano, Nickvc, Goran, Kurtak, and Patnor are all spending a week together here in the UK having a bit of a "get together." The information that's coming out as we share things face to face is pretty incredible and there's already one major...




goldrefiningforum.com





Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 1, 2022)

And just as another example of false XRF reading - had a local scrap yard test a piece of my gold with their XRF

It came back calling my gold tungsten 

The point being - if the metal is not in the XRF program - the XRF is going to lie to you & call it something it is not

Kurt


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