# How long should it take to process electronic pins?



## MMFJ (Oct 21, 2011)

I have a question about just how long it should take to process electronic pins.

Being a newbie and confirming through early tests that, while collecting gold and silver bits from every place I can find are fun and fullfill a need in my life and my business, chemicals are not my thing, I posted a message on July 14th, 2011 looking for an experienced processor to handle an 11 pound bag of various electronic pins.

A couple of board members approached me and I settled on working with one that has many posts showing he knows what he is doing. We spoke on the phone for nearly an hour and seemed to have a good relationship going. He coached me a lot on refining and clearly I felt he was the best one to take this project, with an expectation that he take a fair percentage of what is collected as payment for services.

I sent the package of pins (11 pounds) to him via Priority Mail a couple days later.

He confirmed receipt in a message of July 19 saying "Just wanted to let you know your pin's camein yesterday and they look pretty good. i will get to work on them."

Here's where the question comes in - *JUST HOW LONG SHOULD IT TAKE TO PROCESS ELECTRONIC PINS?*

I've seen videos of it taking seconds to deplate them, though the process he wanted to use is AP, which was to bring higher yield, though with a tradeoff of taking longer.

To me, from what I've read on the board, it should take a few days, maybe a week or even two if you don't really work at it. 

Longer? OK, but am I expecting too much here? 

Perhaps, so I waited - for nearly a whole MONTH.

On August 16, I send a request for an update and was told "I'm hoping to have it finished up by next Friday."

September 1, after asking again, I got (paraphrasing)'I was sick' and "I have not checked on processes since Saturday but will be out tomorrow working on them."

September 14 (now TWO MONTHS since sending the material), "The material is progressing nicely. I ment to send you a PM on Monday to let you know that about 85%-90% of the base metals are dissolved and progressing nicely."

October 12 (busting into THREE MONTHS) after yet again having to ask for progress info and sternly asking for a DEADLINE to know when it will be ready, I was told "Looks like I will have your material wraped up the middle of next week."

It is now (yet again) 8 days later and I have (yet again) not heard from him.

Am I expecting too much in just asking for an expected (and SOLID) date to get this completed?

Of course, I care that it get done right, and that the yield is maximized.

I'm trying to be patient as possible, and am loath to publicly 'air' this issue that I'm having with a respected member of this board, however, the task was taken and results promised - many times. I understand that things come up, and this is a 'hobby' of sorts, but the deal, in my mind, is as a business transaction, with requested and confirmed due dates that have not been met - many times...

My grandfather taught me a poem he learned as a child;



> Once a task is first begun,
> never leave it till it's done.
> Be the labor great or small,
> do it well or not at all!



I believe in that poem and have always structured my dealings around it - whether it be the task at hand or in the follow-up with those whom I'm dealing. I only ask that respect in return, with at least an honest follow-up if/when things don't go as expected. I can take bad news, just hate being ignored!

However, maybe I'm just too new to all this and it really does take a long, long, L O N G (in my opinion) time....

So, again, I ask JUST HOW LONG SHOULD IT TAKE TO PROCESS ELECTRONIC PINS?


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## Harold_V (Oct 21, 2011)

I read your comments with considerable concern. I gather that the board is being used as a source for scamming others. That's not going to fly here.  Please contact me privately, providing the name of the individual in question. I'll see to it that he is no longer a member of this forum, so it can't be used to promote others as he has you. 

To have ANYONE go beyond three months to make a settlement of the type you discussed is NOT acceptable. You have every right to be unhappy, and to voice your thoughts. I thank you for taking the time. We all need to know that there is someone amongst our ranks that is NOT trustworthy. 

Harold


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## patnor1011 (Oct 22, 2011)

I think it is appropriate to name individual and give him space to explain himself, there also may be more deals in progress and there may be more members waiting to hear from him. Another thing is that if he used forum to conduct business it is only fair to give or receive feedback on forum as well. I don't want to judge anybody but we hear questions from new members asking about another members if they are trustworthy or if it is safe to do transactions with them why not to know not very good feedbacks too? He have chance to explain himself or tell his side of story. We have to protect this forum, not individuals.


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## samuel-a (Oct 22, 2011)

patnor1011 said:


> I think it is appropriate to name individual and give him space to explain himself, there also may be more deals in progress and there may be more members waiting to hear from him. Another thing is that if he used forum to conduct business it is only fair to give or receive feedback on forum as well. I don't want to judge anybody but we hear questions from new members asking about another members if they are trustworthy or if it is safe to do transactions with them why not to know not very good feedbacks too? He have chance to explain himself or tell his side of story. We have to protect this forum, not individuals.



+1

Though, in my mind this kind of issue should have stayed private until resolved with the help of the moderators.

But as long as it did turned public... it should probably remain public.

Hopefully you could reach a decent resolution.


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## Harold_V (Oct 22, 2011)

As a moderator, I feel a strong obligation to protect readers, so that's my top priority. It's clear that none of us have any legal authority over others, so our only tool is banishment, which can/may prove to be a costly move for the banned party. All depends on their objective, and how much they value their membership here. Some couldn't care less, while others find it a valuable asset. 

What readers do amongst themselves, privately, is none of my business. In other words, if two readers talk privately and strike a deal of any description, not making it a public affair, I, typically, would not intervene. However, in this case, the offer was made publicly, and was accepted because it was made publicly, on this board. As a result, the board has an obligation to assure that it is legitimate. That being the case, anyone that uses the board to conduct business that is not in keeping with good business practice, I don't want here. Please note that I am speaking for myself, and may or may not represent the views of other moderators, or our founder. 

Harold


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## Palladium (Oct 22, 2011)

I agree with the whole thread.


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## goldsilverpro (Oct 22, 2011)

I agree too, but, in the future, don't make these things public!


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## Claudie (Oct 22, 2011)

There was a similar issue awhile back with a debt not being paid. That was made public to protect the other members of the board. At the time, I thought it was best to keep these things private but, we need to know who we can trust and who we may not be able to trust. I admire the honesty I have seen on this board since I have been here. This is something that is getting harder to find on the internet these days. I want to believe that there is a valid reason why this has taken so long and I think we should give the other party a chance to explain. I don't personally know anyone on this board, but I feel I can trust most of the members here. Honesty is not all that common in today's society, I feel I have found it here on this forum and I want to continue believing that. Hopefully this issue will be taken care of fast and fairly, so we can keep the forum an honorable place to be. 
Claudie


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## qst42know (Oct 22, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> I agree too, but, in the future, don't make these things public!



What other leverage does one have when they have been stood up for so long? 

Just asking.


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## Palladium (Oct 22, 2011)

I to agree to a certain extent about handling it in private. But the gentleman tried repeatedly to handle it in that form of manner until he felt it was in his best interest to seek help from those more inclined to answer his questions. Had the party resolved the issues their would be no need to make it public.


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## Aristo (Oct 22, 2011)

I would advise caution in responding to this matter until the other party presents his side of the story....as member Patnor pointed out.


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## Anonymous (Oct 22, 2011)

I received 2 emails (make that 3) wantingto know,if I knew who the individual was.So I will post this here,in case anyone else wants to ask me.....I do not know the other individual involved in this,nor was I one of the members that recommended anyone,at least I don't believe I was. I would like to think that I did not recommend anyone that would have done this to another member.
I am reserving (publically) how I feel about this situation,Harold already knows how I feel,and he is the only one that needs to know.
I understand why some of you would not want this posted publically,but I also understand why some of you would want it posted publically.I agree with both sides to an extent,and that is why I am staying out of this.I do not like the situation all together,but I am sure there are aspects of it that I am not aware of.


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## dtectr (Oct 22, 2011)

A man wiser than me once said, "No matter how thin the tortilla is, it _always _has two sides."


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## Harold_V (Oct 23, 2011)

There's a lot more honor on this board than may be apparent. 

I have never heard from the complainant, but I have heard from the party that is late in delivery. I have been assured that he is making an effort to complete this transaction to the satisfaction of MMFJ. I have every confidence that that is the case. Mean time, there is no need to disclose the identity of this individual---for the public complaint appears to have served its purpose. 

My position on matters such as this is simple. Every reader deserves to know if there's ANYONE on the board that has questionable business ethics. 

You don't want your name made public, when someone isn't happy with your performance? 

That's easy! Don't drop the ball. Do exactly as you say you'll do, and do it in the time-frame promised. If you see that you can't make the delivery date, make it your full time job to keep the other party informed, including a new (realistic) completion date. In all my years of conducting business, I don't recall ever having a problem if I had to be late, so long as I kept the other party informed, and lived up to my second pledge. 

If a reader has been cheated by another reader, and the transaction came as a result of an offer on the board, *don't hesitate to make your problem known publicly*. That action, alone, may serve to prevent others from experiencing the same fate. However, use judgment when making an accusation. I'm not interested in how anyone may feel about others---I'm only interested in hearing the truth, directly from the people that know. Don't bombard the board with a "he said--she said" type of post. Hearsay has no value here. 

Harold


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## MMFJ (Oct 23, 2011)

I guess I don't know how to send a PM as a 'first user' - replying seems to work....

I had written to Harold_V immediately after hearing from the other party that he had contacted Harold_V about this. In the message (that somehow never got sent, it seems - Harold_V just stated he didn't have it and I can't find it in my 'Sent Messages' area....), I told him that I was not asking for anyone to be removed from the board, just asking the question to those with more experience so I could tell if my (very newbie) expectations of the timeframe on this process were way out of line.

From the reactions to the original post as well as the multiple private messages I received (many of which ask if it was XXXXX member directly), it appears that I am "in the right" and most feel this sort of thing should be brought out in public (if for no other reason than to open the eyes of the new folks and to keep everyone 'honest').

I have not made the other party's name public knowledge nor do I intend to at this time. However, I do have a bit of a challenge on not revealing it as I feel it is not providing a true picture to those that are planning business with him.

So, why don't I just go ahead and tell who it is? Read Harold_V's post again - as well as several others in this thread. My original intent (which has carried through until now) was to find out about the timeframe this should take and, if it is (rather horribly) delayed, then to make public the issue and escalate it a bit.

I feel I did everything possible to keep it private and am staying in integrity by keeping the name quiet at this time, even though I don't feel I've been treated with the same respect, I do feel it is the correct path for me right now.

I do want it to be known that this person has helped me learn a lot, both in messages and phone calls and I do respect his abilities to process goods, although his communication skills, in my opinion, have been poorly organized - at least on this project.

It is good to know I messed up on the PM to Harold_V - I was wondering why I hadn't received a reply from him - now I see it is due to my missing something in sending....... Hey, we all make mistakes - many of which are correctable with communication.

I take Harold_V's words strongly to heart and when he said "I have been assured that he is making an effort to complete this transaction to the satisfaction of MMFJ. I have every confidence that that is the case.", I'll hold that, although it has really never been a question to me either - I've always believed there was never any intent otherwise - my question is more on just how long it should take (which I understand is often a moving target, but I don't think it out of the question to want something more solid than "next week" and then not hear anything for two weeks or more, then having to ask again, etc. and all that happening over and over).

Again, thanks for the comments and support through PMs.

I look forward to a quick resolution - always have.


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## MMFJ (Nov 26, 2011)

Well, since it has been *yet ANOTHER month+* since I posted the last message, I felt this needed another revisit.....

I did get a PM from the "refiner" (the term seems to become looser every day...) on Nov 7th (19 days ago now...) saying 'I have started the wash procedure on your material today. I am getting close to finishing this up for you.' and there had even been a phone call from a 'friend' of his after my last post - telling me how great a guy this refiner is, etc., etc., ad-infum-bordum...... (so it is clear he hadn't lost my phone number....)

But, now, *PASSING 4 MONTHS AND 1 WEEK*, I still have no closer answer to my question - *"How long should it take to process electronic pins?"*

I have been asked to be 'fair' and make sure everyone that's interested in this thread knows that these pins are not 'typical' and are 'something most will never see' as they are gov't spec old style and such.... (Ok, I've stated that, but still yet, an ANSWER would be nice....) - you can get some data on the pins I clearly described BEFORE taking offers of having them refined.... 
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809&p=104532#p104440 
and here's a picture of some of them - not the ones sent - I kept about 1/2 lb out of the total for later processing (though certainly will NOT be by the same person...)


At least my friends and family have stopped asking me "When will it be done?" - though it is pretty clear what they intended to ask when they look at me with a questioning face, then turn away suddenly - knowing that it will only bring up yet another horrible taste that none of us wants to endure.

Certainly, it makes me extremely sad to read things like Harold_V stated in http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=11847&p=116365&hilit=customer+service#p116365


> There may have been occasions where a week was not enough time. An example might be a large drum of polishing wastes---where incineration was a bottleneck. It may have stretched out to two weeks. What I discovered, very early on, is* when you delivered wasn't nearly as important as delivering when you said you would*. If the lot required ten days to process, informing the customer up front almost always resulted in acceptance, but then I worked hard to ensure I made delivery as promised. If I was not going to be able to make delivery, a phone call was placed immediately, and if they were in trouble, gold was advanced. Service, once again.
> 
> *For small amounts of gold (ten ounces or less), toll refining, a week turn-around is not unreasonable*. It can be done in less time, depending on one's schedule.



Well, "sad" to think that sure would be a nice bit of RESPECT to have from someone you are doing business with - to me, I'd have to say that post says just how I feel about every transaction - whether I'm on the 'customer' or 'service' side, though sure have not seen it from this transaction.

Guess I should just *shut-up and wait till I'm told* it's ready?


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## patnor1011 (Nov 27, 2011)

I do understand your hesitation to name him as you have money tied there. But that may be the option how to speed things up. You may have good feeling that no more people will find themselves in the same situation as you are now. 

Why is this being kept hidden form all other members? And why on earth that unnamed person will not step forward and attempt for some damage control or at least feasible apology.

We have thread with good and bad experiences with refiners, why is this one being protected? It is not good for any member here except him and more members can be deceived in future. :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## Smack (Nov 27, 2011)

The last time I did pins was 27 lbs worth and I had some of those pins in my batch. 2 weeks in my spare time and I was done.


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## Harold_V (Nov 27, 2011)

It's clear that I have been fed a little BS where this matter is concerned. I withheld disclosing because I was told delivery was imminent. For the record. Barren Realms is the individual responsible. 

I have no doubt he may have encountered some issues when processing this material---but the very idea that he has not kept the OP informed is more than troubling to me. 

Years ago, when I was operating my commercial machine shop, I was listed and rated by Dun & Bradstreet. It made getting credit very easy--for I often had to place orders (by phone) with companies outside my area. I got instant approval by being listed. 

Fast forward, now, to what D&B had to say about accounts payable. They had concluded, long ago, that the prospects of collecting money that is greater than 90 days past due was not good. Am I to assume that that is the case here? Has MMFJ been taken for a ride? If so, everyone deserves to know the truth. 

This is a perfect opportunity for Barren to redeem himself. How about it, Barren?

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Nov 27, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> It's clear that I have been fed a little BS where this matter is concerned. I withheld disclosing because I was told delivery was imminent. For the record. Barren Realms is the individual responsible.
> 
> I have no doubt he may have encountered some issues when processing this material---but the very idea that he has not kept the OP informed is more than troubling to me.
> 
> ...




The final filtering of the 2nd dissolving is being done today. All that will be left is precipitating the gold for the 2nd time and drying and melting and sending this to MMFJ.

I have appologized to MMFJ for this more than once.


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## slickdogg (Nov 27, 2011)

I own a custom paint and body shop, i myself learned long ago, that when you tell a customer a timeline, thats what there going to expect, nothing more, nothing less. Picture this for moment. You have an accident in your car (which i hope you don't) and you bring it to my shop for me to repair, before you leave the questions going to come up... "when will my car be done"... I tell you, "ill have this baby done it one week".
The end of the week rolls around, you come to pick your car up, however it's not ready so i tell you "dahhhhhh"...... "my wife had a baby, the kids were sick, and the mail-man ran over my dog". In the mean time your having to bum a ride to work, the store, or to the strip club.. The following week rolls around, i have another excuse.. so i tell you "check back with me in another week". The following week my shop is closed, therefore you try to call me, however i do not answer nor do i return your calls..
Had this happened to you, you'd probably be very upset. The point is no one likes to get the run-a-round. If you take on the responsiability to do somthing for someone you should make it a point to try and fulfill the service you promised to provide, if there is a problem it should be addressed and brought to the customers attention. Communication is extremely important in any line of business.
If that is asking to much, perhalps you should think twice before taking on the task at hand.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 27, 2011)

:arrow: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-it-mean-to-bite-off-more-than-you-can-chew.htm

I am not here to judge anyone. Point is that offer and deal was made on this forum. 
This thread is important for every member who plan or want to conduct any transaction in future.


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## Harold_V (Nov 28, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> The final filtering of the 2nd dissolving is being done today. All that will be left is precipitating the gold for the 2nd time and drying and melting and sending this to MMFJ.
> 
> I have appologized to MMFJ for this more than once.


It is my opinion that MMFJ has every reason to be concerned, considering none of the previous promises have been kept, nor have you been vigilant about keeping him in the loop. It is also my opinion that apologies have little value when the same misdeed is repeated time and again. As a result, I would consider it appropriate for another report to be posted by week's end, with an update on the outcome of this mess. 

Were I in this situation, I'd be appalled at the miserable performance that has been shown. At the very least, a report, at least weekly, would have been a great idea, although, good performance would have been better. 

I'm at a loss to understand how this project could have dragged on as it has. If there's a reasonable explanation, it might be a good idea to share with the readers. If it's based on a particular problem to do with processing, others might benefit by understanding what went wrong. 

I would look upon this situation as the equal of one getting a traffic ticket. A cheap notice that one's performance is not acceptable---and to take note that such behavior comes with a price. 

Want to avoid the inconvenience? Provide reasonable delivery dates----then live up to your promises. After all, they represent who you really are, not who you wish to have others think of you. 

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Nov 28, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > The final filtering of the 2nd dissolving is being done today. All that will be left is precipitating the gold for the 2nd time and drying and melting and sending this to MMFJ.
> ...




There were 7-8 different sizes and kinds of pins in this batch. A sample of each kind of pin was taken and they were run thru a cell. It was found that some of the pins were not going to deplate in the cell and, some of the pins were female sockets as well and it was my feelings that the cell would not remove the plating from the plated interior of these pin's. Nitric was not an option I wanted to use with home made nitric because of chlorides and other instances I have had with home made nitric so I made the decision to process them in AP. They were processed in one container and a good air bubbler used. When the solution got too concentrated with copper I added HCL to the solution to dilute to increase the reaction, no peroxide was added after the initial startup. No heat was added during the processing. Would I make changes in doing this lot? Yes, I would devide the lot into 3 or 4 containers and do it for a faster processing time.


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## MMFJ (Dec 14, 2011)

Well, FINALLY, I have an answer to my question!

And, now, we all know...

Starting on July 19, 2011, with 11 pounds of pins similar to these



Using an AR process and all pins in one bucket, Barren Realms 007 completed and DELIVERED the following on December 14, 2011





So, you can presume from the above that, using a similar process, refiner and type of material, you should expect to see it in 5 months and 25 days.

Hey, it is an answer! 

(BTW, he did send me everything out of the process - although I never asked him to do so. In my opinion, even taking as long as it has, there still is a 'cut' that should go to cover chemicals and such)


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## samuel-a (Dec 14, 2011)

MMFJ said:


> (BTW, he did send me everything out of the process - although I never asked him to do so. In my opinion, even taking as long as it has, there still is a 'cut' that should go to cover chemicals and such)



Seems to me that BR is trying to make amends.

I think it is a dignified way to end this episode.


Hope you both have better luck with your choices next time.


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## publius (Dec 15, 2011)

No sticky for this one. But maybe it could be locked? This thread is why I will remain a member here.


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## slickdogg (Dec 15, 2011)

MMFJ, You know what they say, "it's better late than never" im glad to see that you didnt get stiffed


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## Palladium (Aug 5, 2012)

I love the way Harold handles things. I haven't heard from Barren in a minute. He must be busy!


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## glondor (Aug 5, 2012)

WOW, how did I miss this the first time. Harold is the velvet hammer. Well done.


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## drtyTshrt (Oct 2, 2012)

This forum is in a league of its own. There is an amazing amount of information as well as an abundance of honesty. I now know from this tread the approximate yield for my cache of pins. It looks to be I need to collect more.


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