# Help With Ap



## Anonymous (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi all.
I am new in this forum and new in refining. I read most parts of the forum and deciced to try some thing. I put 2 cpu and put some 20 % hcl and some 3 % H2O2. ıts been nearly 2 hours. The liquid is now yellow. All the pins are staying on cpus. And i can see little bubbles around them. as i read the liquid should turn to green aor something. Can anyone teel me whats wrong ???

Thx for help.


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## leavemealone (Jun 11, 2009)

First problem I see is the % of Hcl you are using.We use muratic which should be 32%-34%.Second is the time frame.Depending on the thickness of the base metals,it can take days for the base metals to completely dissolve.it takes a lot of agitation and make sure you add the correct amount of peroxide,too little and it will take longer,too much,and it will dissolve some or all of the gold.Check out steves videos on finger processing http://www.goldrecovery.us/ and use that ratio.It is more in depth and very user friendly.
Johnny


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## Anonymous (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks for your response. I know I need to use 32-34% HCl. But this is the best I can find now. I've checked Steve's website and watched almost all of the videos. I think I need to put some more H2O2. Is there any effect of using 20 % HCl other then slowing down the reactions? 

As I understand for now its ok but it will take longer to dissolve the base metals. And I have one more question. Why is the liquid yellow now? Is it about the dissolved base metals or something else?


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## gold4mike (Jun 11, 2009)

Often times at the beginning of a batch some gold will dissolve first, giving the yellow color you described, then the copper will start to dissolve giving you the green color you're expecting. If you use too much H2O2 you'll dissolve more gold yet. As the copper starts to go into solution the gold will drop back out. Steve suggests using the same batch of AP over and over again with an air bubbler which will add the needed oxygen to rejuvenate the bath. You can recover your gold foils each batch as you go and then recover the dropped brown gold powder when the liquid has become saturated with copper. I'm on my eighth batch of fingers using the same solution and it still works great with no additions of H2O2 since the very first batch. It can take several days to complete a batch. Just check on it once or twice a day, give a good agitation, and let it go. The air bubbler will assist with the agitation as well.


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## leavemealone (Jun 11, 2009)

Nice post mike.

Make sure you always test your solution before discarding.And the percentage problem can be fix by boiling it down 3 to 2 that will give you about 30%,just watch those fumes they can be really nasty.
Johnny


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## Anonymous (Jun 12, 2009)

Thx for the helping posts.

After reading these post I left the batch to stay for night. When I checked it in the morning the liquid was clean and colorless and some of the gold in the pins were dissolved. I added a little H2O2 then the liquid color changed to yellow immediately. I would be greatful if someone can tellme where the mistake is?

Ehtelmec


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## nicknitro (Jun 12, 2009)

I would say, you have too much peroxide in solution. 

If you are using the 20% HCl, and still using the recommended amounts of H2O2 for the 31% HCL, you are putting the balance out of whack. 

Basically what I'm trying to say is, that you are trying to compensate for the slower reaction time with more peroxide, when you need to accept the limitations of your HCL. 

Sorry to discourage, as I hate doing it, however I feel if you keep doing what you are doing, you may end up "mis-placeing" the gold from your materials into solution, possibly cementing out onto any copper in solution. The gold may also precipitate out as more base metals dissolve into solution, and mix with other base metals already precipitated. That is the reason why you just try to keep enough H202 in solution to dissolve the base metals only.

Ok now for possible solutions, if you are using 20% HCL, say a 3 quarts worth. "Hypothetical". It is like using 2 quarts of 31% HCL. So your addition of H202 should be calculated accordingly to the use of 2 quarts 31%.So approximately 1 quart addition. Following? I hope I'm helping. Then your just gonna have to give it time, don't rush things. I would probably recommend aeration by agitation like LeaveMeAlone said, or possibly an air boubler, as opposed to further H2O2 additions, unless the solution gets saturated with copper.

Good Luck,

Nick


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## leavemealone (Jun 12, 2009)

> After reading these post I left the batch to stay for night. When I checked it in the morning the liquid was clean and colorless and some of the gold in the pins were dissolved. I added a little H2O2 then the liquid color changed to yellow immediately.


Hey guys,sounds to me like the pins were nickel or tin.That would explain the clearing overnight.However there should be a very thin black "residue" on the chips or in the bottom.If not then you may not have enough base metal in your solution yet to force out the gold.Just test the solution to see if it has any gold in it.You may be running into the same problem tryplecash is having if you dont see any visible gold on your pins.Keep us posted and we'll help accordingly.
One quick question,what kind of chips are you processing?And you said you put 2 in correct?
Johnny


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## Anonymous (Jun 12, 2009)

As I said before the liquid was colorless and when I add H2O2 it turned to yellow. When I came back from work it was again colorless and turned yellow when I add H2O2 again. Here are some pics of my batch and CPUs.























As you can see some of the gold on the pins are dissolved. And i can see some black precipitates especially on last pic. Do you think they are gold. And there is some black rresidue on the pins. 
I will try to find some tin for making a solution to test my batch.

Thanks for helping posts.


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## qst42know (Jun 12, 2009)

As long as it's bubbling its working. Let it do it's work. 

Don't bother adding peroxide as these chip legs likely don't have any copper. AP is for copper based metals.

Nitric or poormans nitric would have been the preferred soak for these.


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## leavemealone (Jun 12, 2009)

From the pictures it appears that you have added entirely too much peroxide.No problem,lets wait until the chips are completely stripped before proceding.Also the next time make sure you take the "cap" off of the center of the cpu....good gold inside.
Johnny


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## Scott2357 (Jun 13, 2009)

Actually, I tried a few experiments with different mixtures of AP, being careful not to add too much H2O2 and dissolve the gold. Soaking the whole CPU over night, the metal holding the lid is dissolved and can be removed easily with a small tap of a screw driver to break the glue seal. A lot easier than the torch and less damaging if you want to see the inside in detail.


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## Anonymous (Jun 13, 2009)

So I will wait to se what happens. 

Leavemealone I know there is more gold under the lid. Actually I learned it from the posts on this forum :lol: But I am just trying to get some experience so the gold under the lid is not important for me now. But thanks for reminding me.


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## leavemealone (Jun 13, 2009)

Ahhh sorry.Harold posted a response a while back(and the same goes for me),I never ever intend to make anyone feel unintelligent,nor do I assume they don't know what they are doing.I usually write my resonses in great detail,not only to help the author of the thread,but any readers that may not have experience in the situation at hand.I never intend to insult or belittle anyone,If It does then I am very sorry that is not my intentions.
TIme for me to start a pot of coffee.Jack its 9:30..you're late!lol
Johnny


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## Anonymous (Jun 13, 2009)

No I never think about something like that. Your posts are really helpful for me. Thanks again.


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## leavemealone (Jun 13, 2009)

Thank you.All I want to do is help.Hopefully we can get this going good for you soon.
Johnny


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## Anonymous (Jun 23, 2009)

After ten days every thing is ok with my batch. Or i think like that here are some pics.














As you can see in the first photo the color of the solution is emerald green. And the lid of the cpu is opened itself. In the second photo you can see the foil that comes from the center of the cpu in the first photo.I just want to know is there any gold under the lid of the other cpu (the one in the second photo).
On the third photo the gold coatings of the pins and some black pins can be seen. Is the black thing the gold that dissolved and precipitated after the solution is saturated by copper? 

And is there anything that I should do before filtering now?

Thanks for your help.


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## lazersteve (Jun 23, 2009)

ehtelmec said:


> On the third photo the gold coatings of the pins and some black pins can be seen. Is the black thing the gold that dissolved and precipitated after the solution is saturated by copper?


Not sure what 'black thing' you are talking about. Gold that gets precipitated from solution by copper is a fine black powder and settles to the bottom of the bucket.



ehtelmec said:


> And is there anything that I should do before filtering now?


Let the foils settle, siphon/pour off the excess liquid. Rinse with HCl then water until the HCl is no longer discolored and any fine grains of copper I chloride are all dissolved. Copper I chloride is a a salt that forms in saturated solutions. It varies in color from gray, to off-white, or lime green once exposed to air.

Edit: Also, use a wooden stick or plastic tweezers to scrub the last of the gold traces out of the cpu housings. Most of the time the remaining foils on the ceramic cores is barely attached and the scrubbing easily removes them.

Steve


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## goldmelts (Jun 29, 2009)

Hi,

Is there any issue with leaving the lids on the CPU. I read they are tungsten. Will this cause issues with the purity of the gold, later in the process?

thank you.


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## lazersteve (Jun 29, 2009)

I remove all the bottom lids from any cpus I process. The lids contain iron which can slow the AP process.

The gold top lids are a copper tungsten alloy and create a yellow green powder when treated with acid and an oxidizer.

Steve


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## goldmelts (Jun 30, 2009)

HI Steve,

I was actually refering to the top lid. I can easily remove the bottom, but don't have a torch to remove the top lib.

So, I remove the bottom, leave the top. I'm assuming after some time the solder holding the top lid is removed, and then it's a good idea to remove the top lid from the mix. Is this correct?

will the disolved tungsten copper alloy cause an issue with the cleaning stage? or with the AP process? How would you wash the gold with the tungsten alloy? same as usual (hot HCl and water)?


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## lazersteve (Jun 30, 2009)

The top lids can be stripped using the sulfuric cell avoiding the problems associated with attempting to dissolve it. 

Tungsten forms a very finely divided yellow green powder that is very hard to filter and also hard to dissolve.







The braze around the top lid is a gold alloy. Tungsten can be dissolved using 35% hydrogen peroxide.

Steve


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## goldmelts (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm still confused.

Let me put this in another way.What if I have no means to remove the top lid. How would I process the Pentium pro cpus?

HI ehtelmec,

Any update with your procesing of the cpus?


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## AuMINIMayhem (Jul 14, 2009)

hey strangers.. long time, I know... anyways, I'm also having a similar problem with the AP thing.. I suspect I added way too much H2O2 to the solution and may have dissolved most if not all of the gold on my pins (I'm doing a batch that is in the range of about ten pounds).. *If* the gold has taken up into solution.. can I drop it out by adding a piece of pure copper flashing I have from the machine shop I work in?.. I have probably a hundred pounds of these pins to work with at this point, so this is a long term deal, obviously.. If I haven't muggled up this batch I'd be happy, but not entirely disheartened if I had to stop now and start all over.. although my hands are getting very calloused and I'm getting a touch of carpal tunnel from pulling pins out of these dang plastic connector housings.. 

on a side note (sorry if this is too off-topic)..I found this picture on Ebay of a very similar connector to what I have. the pins are quite tedious to remove from these plastic housings. The easiest solution I've found is to pull them one at a time with a pair of dikes or needle-nose pliers.. any suggestions, or tools that I can buy that might make short work of removing these.. best estimate I have is about 500 lb.s of these connectors. I thought the majority of the weight would be the plastic housing, but after weighing them, I'm looking at approximately 100 lb.s of pins once they are removed.. Any help on this would be great. (note to Mod.. if this is OT and you need to move it, could you pm me so I can find where this reply went?.. thanks :mrgreen: )


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## AuMINIMayhem (Jul 14, 2009)

oh yeah.. a little more background before I forget...

I don't have the time to use an e-cell, I just wanted to do batches of ten or so pounds at a time and let them soak for a few days. Sort of the Ronco method.. you know, "set it and forget it".. :mrgreen: so something that may take longer but yield a better result would be much more suitable for me than something I would have to dedicate many hours to watching over.. I do enough of that pulling pins :lol: (and no, I don't want to sell them on Ebay :mrgreen: ) 

Also, I suspect my pins are largely nickel or something other than copper. I roughed up a few I pulled out with sandppaper and the chrome color remained, so I clipped a few, looked at them under a jewelers' loop and the chrome color runs straight through the whole pin.. perhpaps AP isn't the right way to go with these? I certainly don't have the resources to deal with giant quantities of nitric or the insane amount of toxic gas/waste I would produce by reducing them down in such manner.


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## glorycloud (Jul 14, 2009)

Why don't you check out Steve's video on the copper mesh he uses for pins 
in an electrolytic cell. It seems to be a fast way to git-r-dun.

http://www.goldrecovery.us

It might solve the problem for you. 8)


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## AuMINIMayhem (Jul 15, 2009)

yeah.. I've used that method before with great results. :mrgreen: I'm probably going to go that route in the end anyways, but I rarely have time to drop by here and sometimes when I do, some new techniques are being discussed, so I figured I'd throw that out there. The e-cell still seems to be the most efficient way to go for this particular scenario. Tme to go dig out the ol' lead anodes and find an over sized pyrex beaker... I've got plenty of copper mesh, found a great deal on some at an art supply place that was going out of business, so Im set there. Now, if I can find my "hole-y jeans"..heh.. remember, boys and girls, you will invariably get a smudge on your jeans, skirt, whatever and when it hits the wash, it's going to turn into a nice hole.. :twisted: 

time to end this response.. it's going off-topic.. 8)


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## g_axelsson (Jul 15, 2009)

AuMINIMayhem said:


> Also, I suspect my pins are largely nickel or something other than copper. I roughed up a few I pulled out with sandppaper and the chrome color remained, so I clipped a few, looked at them under a jewelers' loop and the chrome color runs straight through the whole pin.



Don't clip it to get a cross section, any surface metal will smear across the cut. Break them by bending repeatedly and you will probably find out that it is yellow brass on the inside.
Usually pins like this is tin plated on the solder side and gold plated on the other side. To check for tin plate just rub it against a white paper, if it leaves a gray trace then it is tin.
There probably is nickel plate under the gold, it protects the gold from alloying with the base metal in the pin.

/Göran


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## nicknitro (Jul 16, 2009)

Mini Mayhem,

Good to see a NH-ite. Any input on the whereabouts of JustinNH?

The only "new Method" possibly to you, that I can offer is Amalgamation. No, not using mercury or cyanide leaches. 

What I speak of has been posted a few times before. It is commonly sold on EPay, and is supposed to be a metal known as Bismuth. At least that is what I got out of previous topics with other Forum Members.

Basically the process is that you take the bismuth in say a stainless pan and heat till liquified. (unsure of temp., but there is a forum on Ebay), then add your materials (Pins in your case). The bismuth should absorb the gold like a conventional amalgam, but is proported to leave the base metals floating on top as slag. Skim it off, then let the Bismuth cool, almost instant when poured into a colder vessel. Then I believe the precipitating chemical involved (again unsure of the method) is plain ammonia. 

Ebay is claimed to be expensive at $10 a gram for the "Bismuth", but I found another site that sells it much cheaper, whichI posted on another topic.

I can't see why this method wouldn't be accepted if it works as advertised, however I have come across some heavy dis-approval the last few times I posted. Look into it though, like I say there is a forum for the topic on Ebay. Must have some followers. LOL

Good Luck Bud,

Nick


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## DNIndustry (Nov 30, 2009)

tungsten is also weak to nitro-fluoric etching


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## Palladium (Mar 7, 2010)




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