# New starter and need help



## ahmadbayoumi (Sep 26, 2013)

Dears,

I'm a new starter refining world and need some help.

I have pounds of old cellphones (mainly Nokia) and need to know which type of CPUs these are (Fiber or Ceramic)

Also I need to know the optimum method for extracting gold from these CPUs


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## canedane (Sep 26, 2013)

Hi and welcome to the forum.
an importhttp://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=19284 here is a thing you can learn from another newbie, here is his first post.
To preciate precious metals demand a lot of study, and im afreidthere isent easy solutions.
Cell phones doesent have a cpu, the have flatpacks, and you can start to demontage them. They are made of epoxy.
Cell phones are not for beginners, but the flatpacs are relative easy to handle.
Use the grf seach and download Hookes book and you will get answers to nearly all questions you may have. The members here are very helpfull, but they expect you do your homework before asking.
Good luck 
Henrik


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## ahmadbayoumi (Sep 26, 2013)

Thank you canedane for you reply .. Sure, I will read more before trying anything .. but I want to know does it worth a try for flatpacks or should I try something else.

I mean is there any gold on flatpacks and if so how much ?


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## patnor1011 (Sep 26, 2013)

It depend.
There is a lot in some and none in others.


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## canedane (Sep 26, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi said:


> Thank you canedane for you reply .. Sure, I will read more before trying anything .. but I want to know does it worth a try for flatpacks or should I try something else.
> 
> I mean is there any gold on flatpacks and if so how much ?



Persenly i collect flatpacks, and my guess 1g gold in 1kg cellphone flatpacks, so it isent for the money i do it.
My guess for the valeu of and elder Nokia phone is 0.65$ in gold
This is a serious guess and not dokumented!

Here is a dokumentated cell phones recycling test.
Gold lbs/ton 0.44
Silver lbs/ton 4.40
Palladium lbs/ton 0,11

The profit for proffesionel refiners when the cell phones are for free are 0.1 $ per unit
This test is from california universety, Santa barbera april 2006


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## ahmadbayoumi (Sep 27, 2013)

Thanks a lot Patnor and canedane for your replies and for the gr8 info. 

However I need to know how to sort these flat-packs chips out.

I mean how could I know which chips yield gold more than others.

As far as I know, the BGAs are the most valued ones but where to find these BGAs ? in cellphones ? in PCs ?

I will attached a photo for the cell phone flat-packs I have. 

Also the yields above are different from others in our forum here .. some are gr8 and others are disappointing.

So what are the most exact yields for different kinds of flat-packs.

I know, I'm asking more questions but also I know that you are very helpful


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## patnor1011 (Sep 27, 2013)

Yield depend pretty much on technique, process and skill.
It is really hard to give info what and where. I processed hundreds of kilograms of them and yield was different even when I processed similar types.
Let me put it this way. You can expect more from smaller thin IC from 1 to 2g/kg and less from bigger and thick IC 0.1-0.5g/kilogram.
Be prepared for possibility that some IC will have no recoverable gold whatsoever.
Read this:
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=11827


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 1, 2013)

Thanks a lot Patnor for your reply.

I'm attaching a Pic for the flat-packs ICs I got .. I have so many pounds of such ICs.

1st, these ICs are the BGAs or not ?

2nd, I wonder how much gold in these .. In y country 1kg of this ICs worth 150-200 $.

So does it worth this much value ?!


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 1, 2013)

Hello,

for got to mention that the above chip was cut out from an old Nokia cellphone.


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## patnor1011 (Oct 2, 2013)

They do have gold inside but I have no idea how much as I never processed just them. If you have sizeable sample of them say about 100g you can process and find out how much of gold in kilogram. I never got many of them I do not have access to many old phones.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks Patnor.

However, which technique should i use to process them ?!

using the one for normal flat-packs black ICs mentioned in your1st free eBook.

or using the one mentioned in your 2nd eBook for processing BGAs.


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## patnor1011 (Oct 2, 2013)

That does not really matter, use whatever will suit you better. Those are BGA but different than those I processed in second one. Simply incinerate them, break a little, sieve to remove silicone chip from inside, crush, wash, separate pins with magnet, wash in hot nitric to remove non magnetic pins and then process concentrate in AR.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 3, 2013)

Thanks again Patnor 8) 

There are many points still missing for me.

Well, after reading 100s of posts here, I'm a little bit confused .. when to use AR and when to use AP ?!!

you mentioned above to use AR while in your posts I can see that you have been using AP .. so why that ?

There must be a reason for that .. so PLS tell me :roll:


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## solar_plasma (Oct 3, 2013)

Whenever AP * (edit: I meant HCl/chlorox instead of AP)* will do the job, it is the easier way (fx. gold powders, foils). AP * (edit: I meant HCl/chlorox instead of AP)* is too weak if you want to dissolve more massive gold or if you want to get a little gold out of an amount of thick mud of incinerated material.

*edit: AP= acid/peroxide means CuCl2, normally formed by a reaction of HCl, H2O2 and copper, which is mostly used to dissolve copper under the goldplating on boards like fx. RAMs. Some people use hot AP with a little excess of H2O2 and time even to dissolve gold, though this reaction is much slower than HCl/Chlorox or AR*


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 3, 2013)

Thanks a lot Solar_Plasma for your help.

I now got the idea behind using AR over AP in some cases.

Now, Is there any step by step guide for using AR process.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 3, 2013)

Absolutely! First step is download, read and understand Hoke, - it is free. Beside this follow the Guided Tour through the forum. At least those two steps are the fastest and easiest way to go. All other approaches will cost more time or more money, often both.

And remember, many will enjoy to help you, if your questions show, that you already have searched and read by your own first. The last question is not one of those.


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## pattt (Oct 3, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> Whenever AP will do the job, it is the easier way (fx. gold powders, foils). AP is too weak if you want to dissolve more massive gold or if you want to get a little gold out of an amount of thick mud of incinerated material.



Hi,
shouldn't it be Hydrochloric acid/sodium hypochlorite ( hcl/clorox ) ? instead of AP? if your peroxide is much higher then 3% it would dissolve gold , but i don't think that is what you meant, or did I completely overlooked or misunderstand something here?

pat


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## solar_plasma (Oct 3, 2013)

> solar_plasma wrote:Whenever AP will do the job, it is the easier way (fx. gold powders, foils). AP is too weak if you want to dissolve more massive gold or if you want to get a little gold out of an amount of thick mud of incinerated material.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Very right! I thought of and meant HCl/chlorox ofcourse, thank you! *Don't know where I had my mind. I have edited the mistake. In my brain AP is located so far away from HCl/chlorox and AR, that I let me get fooled by the simplicity of my cognitive structure, I guess. :lol:


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## pattt (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi Solar plasma, 

ok nice , just thought I was confused and didn't understand something,
or that it was a test to see if the readers were paying attention  
but it shows that I learned a lot this last year  

have a nice day

Pat


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## patnor1011 (Oct 3, 2013)

I never used AP with IC chips.
The only instances I use AP are finger foils and sim cards.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 3, 2013)

Thanks all for your help.

I'm currently reading Patnor's free ebook and the fourm handbook Vol.1.

Sure will have some questions after finishing reading them.

Meanwhile, I may need to buy Patnor's 2nd ebook for BGAs processing but May I ask for the table of contents.

Also how to buy it if I decided to.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 7, 2013)

Hello Patnor,

Need to buy your BGA ebook but I need to know a broef about it or even a table of content.

Also, I want to know how to buy it.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 7, 2013)

> I want to know



I would like to know :lol: sorry, the teacher in me came through


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 8, 2013)

Hello ALL,

Patnor said here in this post:



patnor1011 said:


> sieve to remove silicone chip from inside



Does it mean the large size stuff or what does it mean silicon chips and how do I know these chips ?

Also, 



patnor1011 said:


> separate pins with magnet



As far as I Know for BGAs there are no pins but only small solder balls .. right ?

Now I have another question PLS .. Do I need to wash the BGAs 1st with HCL to remove solder balls ?

Thanks to help me


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## solar_plasma (Oct 8, 2013)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=11827


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 8, 2013)

Thanks Solar_Blasma,

Will read the entire thread and I have any question, I'll come back to you again.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 8, 2013)

It's very long. I would in this case read fastly over the whole thread and then read the important posts deeply again.


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## patnor1011 (Oct 8, 2013)

Silicone chip, is better said silicone wafer, it is square mirror like piece with sharp edges. It is located in the middle inside IC. 
You separate pins to magnetic and non magnetic from when you process IC. 
S/N BGA do not have pins inside. When burned properly they crumble to powder in your fingers so it is easier to remove Silicone wafer prior additional crushing of crumbled material. Silicone wafer when broken is like mirror, hard to crush to powder, chopping and mangling your gold wires making powder, dust from them which is easier to lose when washing. It is all there in my thread.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 8, 2013)

Thanks a lot Patnor for the great info.

I'm almost done with your great 23 pages thread .. it's really very beneficial .. However, I may still have some questions .. I'll sort them out then post them here.

Meanwhile, I need to buy your ebook about processing BGAs so how can I buy the whole version of it.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 8, 2013)

> Do I need to wash the BGAs 1st with HCL to remove solder balls ?



In my simple mind and simple words: The cleaner,the better. For the first, they might contain silver. For the second, when they melt together with the goldbondings, they might alloy with the gold. Third and maybe most important, tin only cause problems later on. Try a search on probs with tin: tin and HNO3, tin and colloidal gold, I guess there are more....can't remember right now,it's late here.


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## patnor1011 (Oct 8, 2013)

I sent you PM.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 9, 2013)

Thanks a lot Solar_Plasma,

What I understand from your reply that it may be recommended to wash the whole bunch in HCL before Incineration .. Am I right ?

The reason for that is to dissolve solders that may contain for further recovery.

Well, if so how much HCL I should use and what is the HCL concentration.

Also regarding Pat's thread; do I need to split the up and bottom parts of ICs 1st ?

And if so how I can do that ?

I'm re-attching a Pic for the BGA ICs I got.

Sorry for asking many questions but really I want to learn and you are helpful here.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 9, 2013)

> What I understand from your reply that it may be recommended to wash the whole bunch in HCL before Incineration .. Am I right ?


That's what I did last time and it worked for me.


> The reason for that is to dissolve solders that may contain for further recovery.


...and to avoid all problems with tin.


> Well, if so how much HCL I should use and what is the HCL concentration.


doesn't matter really much.No need for to take the best stuff. I even used old, contaminated AP, which I would not necessarily advise, though it worked. I think everything between 10 and 25% should work fine. I like to avoid the vapors of full strength HCl, where I can.


> Also regarding Pat's thread; do I need to split the up and bottom parts of ICs 1st ?


if you mean that green board - yes, it is epoxy and really nasty to incinerate


> And if so how I can do that ?


I use a cutter knife or a chisel - Don't cut into your fingers! :lol: 


> Sorry for asking many questions but really I want to learn and you are helpful here.


Just remember going on reading Hoke, the safety section, the guided tour and allways first spend some 20 minutes to search by your own, then I am glad, if I can help you on the right track.

And something I find important. Never trust blindly the first answer. 'Always wait some time, maybe some of the more experienced guys want to correct something.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 10, 2013)

Hello ALL,

Hope you are all doing well.

Thanks Solar_Plasma for your reply.

Regarding the separation of the top and bottom part of BGAs, I tried to do that with the BGAs I got but those BGAs are very thin and it's very hard to split any of them.

However barely, I was able to separate the bottom film as in the attached pic.

it seems that this very very thin film (looks like old camera photo negative strip) contains gold traces or gold wires .. need your opinions PLS.

Now the other parts (fiber or plastic, i don't know) with one face is black and the other face (the face attached to the thin film) is green that contains the silicone wafer, I need your advise whether it contains gold inside as well or not ?

For me I can't find any gold traces but it may contain.

Also, is there any problem to process the whole chips without splitting as it's really hard to due to the fact that they are very thin.


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## maynman1751 (Oct 10, 2013)

> Regarding the separation of the top and bottom part of BGAs, I tried to do that with the BGAs I got but those BGAs are very thin and it's very hard to split any of them.



The type of BGA on a cell phone board does not require separation. Simply soak in HCl to remove solder, incinerate, crumble and remove the glass-like pieces.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 11, 2013)

Sorry, my fault, I believed you have those kind of south and northbridges, which actually have to be separated.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks a lot all .. However, and forgive me I didn't get the point here .. Should I have to separate those very thin BGAs or may I process them directly ?

And if I have to which part is more valuable the fiber/plastic part which contains the silicone wafer (looks like shiny mirror)

or

That part that looks like a very thin film strip ?


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## maynman1751 (Oct 11, 2013)

There is nothing recoverable in the mirror pieces.


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## maynman1751 (Oct 11, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> Sorry, my fault, I believed you have those kind of south and northbridges, which actually have to be separated.


That's alright my friend! You have been a great help to the forum. Guten Tag!


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 13, 2013)

Hello ALL,

After reading 100s of threads in this great forum and after reading Patrons' books many times and some parts of Hoke's book, I came with the following steps that mat summarize the whole gold recovery precess. PLS check these steps and revise them as needed and correct or comment on any step if required:

1- Put the whole bunch of ICs in HCL (let it 30%) and warm it up a little to speed up the reaction. This is to dissolve tin (if any) as Stannous chloride. And as far as I know silver will not be recovered at this stage as it needs a strong oxidizer.

2- Incineration
The goal is to get the bond wires and to burn off oils and carbons trash and to oxidize the base metals. Incineration should be done in the existence of oxygen and should be done using torch or coal to reach 600°C in a non magnetic stainless steal container/pot. As per Patnor and if using coal it should take 10-15 mins (or so) for each 0.5Kg to get the ICs red hot.

3-After good Incineration, crumble the ICs using hands and with water.

4- Using fine sieve, pull out all silicone wafers.

5- Crush the remainings to powder/dust using mortar.

6- Wash & Pan (as many times as needed)
Put the crushed powder/dust in a jar then Cover it with tap water & add a little soap to break the surface tension of the powder/dust particles. Then stir it up very well so that heavier stuff (including gold) 

should sink to bottom. Now let the the mixture settle for a minute or so then skim out lighter stuff and then carefully and very slowly start to pour off black/dirty water in another jar (as it may contain 

some very fine gold parts). Repeat this till water becomes clean & clear.

7- Use a magnet to remove all metallic parts.

8- Wash in hot diluted 30 % Nitric acid to dissolve all base metals.
1L of 30% Nitric acid could be prepared using 70% nitric acid as per the following formula:
30/70 * 1000 mL/L = 428.5 mL of 70% nitric acid diluted to 571 mL (1000 mL-428.5 mL) of distilled water 

9- Decant as much as it could be from the solution leaving the concentrate in the bottom.
the decanted solution could be then tested with Stannous chloride for gold traces.

10- Go for AR
AR= Aqua Regia = 1 part 70% Nitric Acid (HNO3), 3 parts Muriatic Acid (HCL) noting that it takes 3.8 mL HCl + .95 mL HNO3 to dissolve 1 gram of gold. So, calculate the expected amount of required HCL and HNO3. Now, start by putting the leached concentrate to sufficient amount of 30% HCL then while heating (not boiling) add the 70% nitric acid in small increments till there are no more reactions so that all gold is dissolved. Using this way will make sure that there's no excess nitric that needs to be neutralized using urea.

11- After ALL gold get dissolved in AR as Auric Chloride, leave the whole solution to cool.

12- Dilute the solution before you filter it. The reason is that a small amount of silver can exist in a strong, hot solution of AR. By cooling and diluting the solution, this would force silver out of the solution as 

silver chloride. By doing this before filtering, it prevents this tiny bit of silver from reporting in precipitated gold.

13- Filter resulted Auric Chloride solution using coffee filters/lab filters and a funnel. The filtering process should be as slow as possible to allow filtering out all contaminants.

14- Go for dropping gold out of the Auric Chloride solution. This is done using SMB or Sodium Meta Bisulfite.
A 1:1 ratio (or a little bit more) of SMB will be enough provided that there's no excess (or very little) nitric acid.
SMB could be used directly as powder or diluted with water (65 grams SMB to each 100 ml water).

15- The gold should start dropping to the bottom as powder and now we can start heating to speed up the dropping process. Then leave it till it settles.

16- Decant as much as it could be from the solution leaving the powder in the bottom.

17- Wash precipitated gold powder in hot HCL and then in hot distilled water.

18- For pure gold it's recommended to start over the whole AR process again.

19- Leave the wet powder to dry.

20- Using torch, and a casting dish, dry gold powder should be heated and melted to make a gold button.


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## patnor1011 (Oct 13, 2013)

After 6 I would repeat this crushing and washing until there will be like spoon or two of material left. No more than that, there is no point to waste a lot of acid leaching burned plastic.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 14, 2013)

But if you didn't pan before, don't through your washings away! I tried this panning and after 4 hours and my back was aching I could see more gold fibers in the material I started with than in what was left over after my "pannning" :lol: in my wisdom I had stored everything but the lightest ash in a big bucket. It's just not as easy as it looks like.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 14, 2013)

Thanks a lot Patnor .. I shall consider your comments  

Thanks a lot Solar_Plasma  .. however, what do you mean when you say panning ?
.. for panning as mentioned in step 6 : it's skimming out and removing lighter stuff out of the jar after washing with tap water.

It that right .. ? else PLS tell me what do you mean by panning ?


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## solar_plasma (Oct 14, 2013)

with panning I mean the method to wash gold out of some dirt by gravity using a pan


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## maynman1751 (Oct 14, 2013)

Look up gold panning on the internet or YouTube. It will give you directions on how to pan. Always pan into another container in case you wash out some gold with your ash.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 17, 2013)

Thanks you all for your great support  

I shall start my 1st batch next week .. Hope it works with me :roll: 

I will try to make a detailed report .. wish me a good luck PLS 8)


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 29, 2013)

Hello Dears .. I'm back  

Yesterday I started my way for gold recovery. My 1st step was to buy all needed materials (chemicals and so on) and I have a couple of question pls:

1- I searched a lot for 70% Nitric acid with no hope .. the only available one in the market here is 50% .. so it's OK to use it ?
And if it's OK to use the 50% nitric acid how much should I use ? the same amount or should in increase it ?

2- I searched a lot for tin powder but found only the Stannous Chloride powder. Is it OK as well?
And if it's OK how to use it ? Should I dilute it ? and if so how much water should i add to each 1 gram of Stannous Chloride?

Thanks in advance


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## niteliteone (Oct 29, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi said:


> Hello Dears .. I'm back
> 
> Yesterday I started my way for gold recovery. My 1st step was to buy all needed materials (chemicals and so on) and I have a couple of question pls:
> 
> ...


I think of myself as a Sweetheart, Not a "Dear" :lol: 

I will try to answer your questions, so here goes;
For #1 most of the time we will "Dilute" the nitric acid we use by 50%, so the nitric acid you found will work well for what we do here. You just have to remember that dilution when following advice from here.
The 70% nitric diluted 50% with water as we recommend comes out close to 42% if I remember correctly. So when you dilute your 50% nitric (available to you above) add less water to yours to come close to the 42% we use here.
example;
100ml 70% nitric + 100ml water = +/- 42% nitric blend
100ml 50% nitric + *?* ml water = +/- 42% nitric blend (due to meds I can't do the math now, sorry)

For # 2 this is discussed in Hokes book and I would not be helping you if I just gave the answer :shock: sorry


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 29, 2013)

Hello niteliteone .. Thanks a lot for your help.

For #1 .. let me do the math for myself .. I love it 8) 

For #2 .. If it's their in Hooks book .. then let me find out .. I consider this itself as a help.

I don't like easy stuff .. sometimes I just need to know the right way .. then I reach it myself.

But I still have the right to ask questions .. right ? :lol:


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## niteliteone (Oct 29, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi said:


> Hello niteliteone .. Thanks a lot for your help.
> 
> For #1 .. let me do the math for myself .. I love it 8)
> 
> ...


With answers like these I will always offer what help I can. 8)

edit to add;
I offer help that will help you find the answers you need today and also answer questions you have for the future. Hokes book offers most of the answers to basic refining questions. Once you understand the basics, you can easily understand the rest.
If not then feel free to ask.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks again niteliteone for your help

You know, I believe that easy come, easy go .. so one just needs to spend some efforts .. then when things work good, you think you deserve that  

Will read the part of Hooks books about Stannous Chloride .. and will get back to you in case of any questions.

For me, I love reading .. but it's just a matter of time as I'm really very busy (I know that all are also busy ) and one got 2 hrs per day for doing my own stuff.

But will try to get the most of these 2 hrs 8) 

Thanks again and again for any piece of help any one have given or would give to me.


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## jimdoc (Oct 30, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi said:


> Will read the part of Hooks books about Stannous Chloride .. and will get back to you in case of any questions.



It is "Hoke's" book, not "Hooks". 
Just to make sure you're reading the right book.

Jim


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## ahmadbayoumi (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks Jim for the correction .. it was just mistyping  

Don't worry .. I'm reading the right book 8)


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## ahmadbayoumi (Nov 10, 2013)

Hello ALL,

Hope you are all doing well.

Finally, I managed to perform my 1st experiment for gold recovery. After about 6 hours of work (which was quite long for a small sample) I managed to get about 0.07 
grams of gold powder and I'm sure that this yield can be doubled.

Now, I'll describe the whole process in details and I extremely need your help to find out what went wrong to avoid in future. 

I started the experiment with 15 Gram of BGAs extracted from cell phones and then I did the following steps:

1- I put the whole sample into HCL over the whole night (Sample after HCL)

2- I Incinerated the sample BGAs in a stainless steel pot and using normal coal for about 15 mins till they turned to white (Sample After Incineration)

3- Then, I used tap water to crumble them.

4- I was unable to extract the silicon wafers from the mud because it was wet

5- So I decided to crush the whole sample to powder including the silicon wafers.

6- It was so hard and took long time and a lot of effort to crush them and I know that that was because I didn't remove the silicon wafer

7- After crushing as much as I can (there was still some relatively big sized silicon wafers), I started to wash and pan the whole sample

8- For some reasons (which I don’t know), it took very long time to reach a light gray decant (after more than 20 trials i was unable to reach a clean and clear decant solution)

9- At this stage and with a light gray solution, I decided to move to the next step which was washing the concentrate with diluted 50% nitric acid.

I used 75 ml 50% Nitric acid + 50 ml water 

10- Then, I heated the solution for about 10 mins (Sample After hot Nitric acid wash)

11- I carefully decanted the solution leaving the concentrate at the bottom

12- Then I went directly for AR

13- I started the AR by putting the leached concentrate to sufficient amount of 30% HCL (100 ml) then while heating, I added the 50% nitric acid in small increments (I 

used 15 ml)

Here, I was unable to differentiate between the reactions and boiling bubbles (AR1,2,3).

So I thought after about 10 mins to stop the process (I don't know if 10 mins was sufficient or not) and go to the next step

14- I left the whole solution to cool down.

15- Then I diluted the solution before filtering

16- Using a lab filter papers I filtered the whole solution (Auric Chloride after AR)

Here I think it's worth to mention that I divided the solution to 4 parts to speed up the filtration process

17- Then, I went for dropping gold out of the Auric Chloride solution using SMB powder (not diluted with water)

18- After heating the solution the gold (supposed) powder started dropping at the bottom (Gold dropping 1,2)

19- I decant as much as it could be from the solution leaving the powder in the bottom

20- Then, Washed the precipitated gold powder in HCL and then in distilled water

21- Again, I decant as much as it could be from the solution leaving the powder in the bottom

22- heated the wet powder to evaporate the remaining water drops and particles leaving a dry gold (supposed) powder (Gold Powder)


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## ahmadbayoumi (Nov 10, 2013)

these are the remaining Pics:


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## solar_plasma (Nov 10, 2013)

> gold (supposed)



always remember to use stannous test...

When you aren't sure, if everything has dissolved just let it sit a day more. This could save you from having to repeat one or more steps.

You used a lot nitric, ...I would say almost too much. Use about 1ml HNO3 per gramm of expected gold, if this has the needed effect, whenever you can. How did you get rid of the excess?




> 17- Then, I went for dropping gold out of the Auric Chloride solution using SMB powder



Remember to use only as much smb as needed (about 1g/ gramm expected gold). If you have an excess of smb, your stannous test will show false positive.



> I managed to get about 0.07 grams of gold powder



...4,7g/kg
Your result and yíeld seem very fine....especially if this is your first time! *thumbs up!*



> and I'm sure that this yield can be doubled.



Remember to test the remaining liquid for PMs and re-process the solids to be sure.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Nov 10, 2013)

Thanks a lot Solar_Plasma for your reply .. as usual, you are always here for help  



> always remember to use stannous test..



Actually, I didn't use Stannous test in my 1st attempt but I'll use it in future as I realized it's importance here.



> When you aren't sure, if everything has dissolved just let it sit a day more. This could save you from having to repeat one or more steps.



Yes .. I think this is a good idea but 1st, I need to know how to differentiate between reaction foams/bubbles and those of boiling

I mean, after a little heat I saw some foams/bubbles at the AR solution surface and I was confused .. did it meant a good reaction taking place or that was a results of heating and boiling the AR solution.



> You used a lot nitric, ...I would say almost too much. Use about 1ml HNO3 per gramm of expected gold, if this has the needed effect, whenever you can. How did you get rid of the excess?



Really .. only 1 ml of HNO3 for every 1 g of expected gold ? 
I think if I had have the experience of differentiate between reaction foams/bubbles and those of boiling, more nitric wouldn't have been added

But this really strange as I didn't use anything to get rid of excess nitric because I didn't realize that there was excess nitric :roll: 

So, How to know that there was excess nitric and Do think that this may have affected the final yields ?


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## solar_plasma (Nov 10, 2013)

> But this really strange as I didn't use anything to get rid of excess nitric because I didn't realize that there was excess nitric :roll:



I guess you used large excess of smb. Then a big part of the gold may precipitate. But this is not the proper method. You can drive excess nitric off by adding sulfamic acid (try a search).



> So, How to know that there was excess nitric and Do think that this may have affected the final yields ?



Yes, I believe you have some gold in the solids and some in the solution, but according to your yield, you've already gotten at least 60% of the gold.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Nov 10, 2013)

You are right .. I think I used so much SMB than it may be needed.

But I'm still having the Auric Chloride after AR and after using the SMB .. so does it worth if I used Urea to neutralize the excess Nitric and try to add SMB again ?

or the gold has been gone :roll:


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## solar_plasma (Nov 10, 2013)

It's not gone. But don't use urea, it is not adviced anylonger (try a search). Use sulfamic acid instead or use up any nitric by adding a pure gold button of known weight. Probably your gold will come down as soon as the nitric is driven off. If not, you can add smb again.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2013)

Of course do check the safety procedures if you follow the recommendation to use sulphamic acid. *winks at Solar*


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## niteliteone (Nov 10, 2013)

Also, if you are using so much heat you don't know if bubbles are from reaction or boiling :shock: 
That tells you There is too much heat. Acid at 160*F will give all the heat needed, anything more is excessive.
Did you know that every bubble that rises to the surface and breaks throws solution that contains values everywhere :?:


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## ahmadbayoumi (Nov 11, 2013)

After a quick search, I found that Urea is more recommended due due the explosive nature of it's compounds with Nitrate.

However, there is an alternative method using sulfamic acid but I cant see much information about how to use it .. but no problem, I may need to dig more 8) 



> Of course do check the safety procedures if you follow the recommendation to use sulphamic acid. *winks at Solar*



Thanks spaceships .. I'll check this as well.



> Also, if you are using so much heat you don't know if bubbles are from reaction or boiling :shock:
> That tells you There is too much heat. Acid at 160*F will give all the heat needed, anything more is excessive.
> Did you know that every bubble that rises to the surface and breaks throws solution that contains values everywhere



Thanks niteliteone for the info. 

Do you mean that the smoke evaporated was full of gold ? really ? :shock: 

This means I lost a fair amount of my gold :shock: 

I didn't know that I was over heating the solution as the solution was fizzing with every drop of Nitric acid, so I thought that this was due to the reaction :roll:


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## solar_plasma (Nov 11, 2013)

> Do you mean that the smoke evaporated was full of gold ?



As I said, luckily you have got as much gold as you could expect. Niteliteone is ofcourse absolutely right about not to BOIL solutions that contain values. You didn't lose a significant amount, because your solution was very dilluted and you didn't boil off a large amount of liquid, - you don't want to do this with an ounce in the same amount of liquid :lol: .

I think you have learned incredibly much from this process and the feed back AND you got a very fine yield. 

One thing I'd like to point out, maybe the most important: Never be impatient. The gold isn't running away, if you wait a week longer, reading and thinking again and again. But it could run through your fingers by just doing one step too fast.


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 11, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> Niteliteone is ofcourse absolutely right about not to BOIL solutions that contain values.


Actually, it's OK to boil a solution that contains values, but it should be done with a watch glass, reflux condenser, or some other similar means of containing the tiny droplets that contain values.

Boiling creates tiny eruptions at the surface of the solutution as bubbles pop, and can propel values out of the vessel. The watch glass captures these minute droplets and causes them to drop back into the vessel. 

When evaporating a solution to reduce its volume, the solution must be kept below the boiling point to avoid any bubbling which could cause a loss of values, as the vessel is not covered during evaporation. 

Dave


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## solar_plasma (Nov 11, 2013)

FrugalRefiner said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > Niteliteone is ofcourse absolutely right about not to BOIL solutions that contain values.
> ...



Everyday I read some new pieces of the puzzle that fit together making the picture more complete. Thank you, Dave! I love this forum!


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 11, 2013)

The thanks go to Harold. I'm just repeating what I've learned from him.

Dave


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## niteliteone (Nov 11, 2013)

I guess I should have said;
"Never boil any solution containing values, Unless you have the proper equipment to prevent loss"

But I prefer to stick to Harold's admonition to every newbie of "Never boil a solution containing values, period" to cover all the people that don't have the proper equipment.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks a lot all for you real help.

Yesterday, I bought the Sulfamic acid, it costs 2.20$/Kg ... is it good price ?

Tomorrow, I'll go back to my solution (AuCl3) and will add dry Sulfamic acid crystals with stirring till there's no fizzing to remove excess nitric.

Then, gold should start dropping if there's still any that hasn't been precipitated yet.

Is that correct ?

Also, I searched about the safety requirements when dealing with sulfamic acid but not succeeded .. so any recommendations ?


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## moose7802 (Nov 30, 2013)

Sulfamic will fizz a lot if there is a large excess of nitric so I would make sure your liquid is less than half of the beaker being used. And normal safety procedure for handling acids.

Tyler


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 14, 2013)

Hello ALL,

Hope you are doing well 

Once again, I need your help.

I'm going to process some old ceramic CPUs (Intel 486, AMDs Athlon and K6) and I;m confused about pins.

I knew from this great forum that they are made of kovar.

My question here, Should I remove these pins before processing the CPUs or not ?

As per Sam's video, it seems that he didn't remove them (I can see these pins still attached to the CPUs).

However, others here mentioned that we must remove kovar pins before processing.

Thanks in advance


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## Geo (Dec 14, 2013)

if the CPU's are the ceramic type, you do not remove the legs. im not sure there is a good way to liberate the legs from the body anyway.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks a lot Geo for your reply.

Yes .. they are all ceramic .. so If I don't have to remove the legs (pins) then how can I get rid over the kovar ?

Or AR will do the needful ?


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## moose7802 (Dec 15, 2013)

Ceramic cpus can be put straight to AR if you know what your doing. Or you give them a soak in Nitric to remove most of the BM's and then go to AR. This way gives a much cleaner solution, but is typically not needed for ceramics. If I were you I would do a little acquaintance experiment with a few before I do them all. I guess unless you don't have many, then do them all. Just don't get your hopes up to high on the return if you only have a few to run.

Tyler


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks a lot Tyler 

As far as I know, and as you already mentioned .. ceramics don't contain much BMs, so going directly to AR wouldn't be bad I guess .. am I right ?

As per Sam, after breaking the CPUs to small pieces, he went directly for AR (adding HCL and then small increments of Nitric).

However, no problem for me to start by Nitric only then AR (HCL+Nitric) if this is the way for good yields ... need your advise and your experience.

I bought only few for sake of experiment, then and based on the yields, I may buy more if found.


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## butcher (Dec 15, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi, 

You can recover values from small lots, but it is a lot harder, there can always be a little value left behind in the procedure's, a little left in solution or stuck to vessels, stuck in filters...
These small traces of values can be recovered later from filters or in the stock..

How you process also has a lot to do with how great these loses will turn out to be.

This is not as much of problem when working with large lots, where if we lose a tiny portion to the stock pot.
But with small lots the losses are intensified, it can be harder to recover just a little fine powder without losing it in solution.

And many tiny loss from, many small lots can add up to a big loss over a period of time of processing.

Saving up all of those small lots to process one large lot can minimize the loss, and make it easier to refine the whole lot at once.

I find it easier to save up the material until I get a decent amount of that type of material when I can.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks a lot butcher,

Yes, I understand .. the losses will be almost the same however, the % will be decreased compared the total yield.

My target here is to practice and check the process itself rather than the yields .. The yields would be just a guide line for the success of the process.

So I need your help to check the steps before here.


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## butcher (Dec 16, 2013)

"So I need your help to check the steps before here."

I am not sure what you mean by this, it sounds like you want a recipe to bake a cake, where you add certain things and do things in a certain manner, and when done you pull out a perfectly baked cake.

Recover and refining is normally not that easy, although there are some recipe's you can follow, you would soon run into trouble if you do not understand the principles of cooking or have learned how to cook.

You need to learn the principles of cooking first, because jumping in now and throwing things in the oven, trying to follow a recipe, you will soon find yourself in trouble when things do not go like the recipe says it should, trying to cook without understanding the principles is a good way to end up with a lot of burnt cakes nobody can eat.


Start learning the principles with Hokes book, work on the getting acquainted experiments, once you understand the principles you will have an understanding of how and why many things are done the way they are, you not only will understand a recipe, but you will know why it works and what needs to be done if it does not work, you will know the basic principles of cooking and can cook most anything or come up with your own recipe when needed, basically a lot of less burnt cakes or lost gold.

It looks like you are learning to cook!


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 16, 2013)

Hello butcher,

I don't want a recipe to bake a cake and I know that Recovering and refining is normally not that easy and that's why I spent 100s of hrs. reading 100s if not 1000s of posts here and articles elsewhere, and watching 10s of videos and I'm welling to spend more a more and even more, just to learn.

All of that because I don't want a ready to use recipe .. here there's a lot of step-by-step guides for almost everything.

I can follow these step-by-step guides but this is not what I'm looking for .. I need to learn .. I need to understand.

You said "Start learning the principles with Hokes book, work on the getting acquainted experiments"

That is exactly what I'm trying to do .. as I mentioned, I just need to practice 1st. I'm not so concerned about the yields, however, I'm concerned about the experiment itself. I'm concerned about why doing this .. why avoiding that ?

I really do appreciate your advise .. it's very valuable for me.

However, one can't learn and understand by just reading and watching videos .. I need advises as I have many questions and need someone with expertise that can thankfully answer me.

I'm sure, here there are many friends with expertise and they are welling to coach, advise, and help a new learner


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## butcher (Dec 16, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi,

I have been studying this for more than seven years, I cannot begin to tell you how much I have read about it and practiced trying to learn it. 
If you read all of my posts you will find that rarely have I ever asked questions, Why, I did not need to, I studied what was provided, I read Hokes book over and over, in fact after five years of reading that book I still read it today, and still learn more, in fact I still study today, I still go back to learn the basics.

Do you think I had questions? 
Yes I had a million questions, and every time I learned something it would bring up many more questions, most all of these questions I could find answers for, but I am always coming up with more questions as I learn, even now I have many questions I am searching answer for, do I ask them on the forum? 
Nope, I find the answer and then I help others on the forum with what I am learning, and sometimes I can add to the forum an answer not provided here before.

Basically as we learn we will have many questions, the answers to these will generate more questions, that is how we learn and grow in any field of expertise, study and learning to find answers to our questions is how we become better at that field of work, basically not by asking someone every question that came to mind, that would take us forever to learn more.

Many times a question may have a half dozen different answers, and there are times even these answers are not what we are looking for to solve a problem.

With any field take electronics for example, to learn it, it is very important to understand the basic principles, no matter how long you have worked in the field of electronics, it is always a good Idea to go back and study those basic principles, in fact even in a complicated study of electronics, studying and restudying those basic principles are the single most valuable thing you can learn, why because everything revolves around them.

I have worked in electronics and electricity for years, sometimes it amazes me that some of the other technicians in these fields do not go back and study those basic principles, it amazes me sometimes how sometimes many of them do not really understand the principles that can help them understand there work better, and make them better at their work. I find it funny when I teach another electrician, I can use things he learned in grade school like the wire around a nail and the battery to make a magnet, and explain how and why electricity works the way it does, and use these very simple principles to explain very complex systems or machines, because once you understand the basics principles you know how most any machine works even if you have never seen that machine before.

I also am not saying that we should not ask questions either, sometimes that may be our only choice, but if we study, those questions we have to ask, are far and few between, because we are too busy finding answers to stop and slow ourselves down on one silly question, when we can be finding answers to many others with just a little more study.

Start learning the principles with Hokes book, work on the getting acquainted experiments, this is where you can begin learning the basic principles.

That is the beginners cook book, and no matter how long you have been studying to learn recovery and refining, going back and studying that book will help you learn more.

Sorry I cannot help with the recipe, I was just hoping to help you learn to cook.


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## THE SNOMAN (Dec 16, 2013)

Wow you are so right buther!!! I teach production Colour Printer repair and you can tell when a tech does not know the basics. That basic principal of knowing the basic principals if often ignored. Great reply!!


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## Geo (Dec 17, 2013)

whether you consider this a hobby or you have turned it into a business,the basics starts with safety. learn about the chemicals you will be working with and whatever special needs that will arise from handling and using and eventually disposing of the waste.good work habits is one of the basics you need (keeping notes,labeling bottles,measuring and weighing,cleanliness). learning to use the refining tools not commonly known to the general public (stock pot,crucible,reflux condenser). the basics would also contain, what is called here, common sense. common sense is the assumption that all people should have a certain level of knowledge and problem solving skills to solve certain kinds of problems by themselves. in this way, individual refiners will find what works for them by trial and error. having the fundamental knowledge of certain literature will guide you through the trials and errors faster and safer. 

i understand you are worried about recovering the most from what you are working with. i can tell you this, every time you handle the material, you will leave some behind. take a piece of clean white paper, use an item made of gold and gently rub it on the paper. the dark mark you will see is gold from the item. even though the gold has been removed from the item, it has not been destroyed. the lost gold from the item is now on the paper. if this were multiplied enough times, the paper can be incinerated and the gold recovered from the ash. spent solutions from precipitating values, contain trace amounts or more of values (gold). these are amounts left behind in solution. these values are condensed and recovered in the "stock pot". when you filter solutions, trace amounts of values get trapped in the filters. these values are recovered by incinerating the filters and reclaiming the gold from the ash. when you transfer solution or powder from one container to another, trace amounts are left behind. considering how many times the material is handled,prepped,digested,filtered,precipitated,washed,and if you want very pure gold,digested,filtered,precipitated,washed,rinsed,dried. trace amounts are being left behind in each process but the more times you do a process, the smaller the amount of each loss becomes and as an added bonus, you get extra when you process your stockpot and consumables (filters,paper towels,rags,sweeps).


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## butcher (Dec 17, 2013)

Thanks Geo, 
You highlighted some on some extremely important points.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 17, 2013)

butcher,

Don't you think a I have dozens of questions ?!!

Yes, I have .. but do you think I posted them all here ?

Sure I didn't .. That's because I'm reading and learning and found the answer for almost all of them so far.

But even after spending days and nights searching, reading, and learning there will be always some questions that one can't answer by his own.

Anyway, you said that you will not help with the recipe and I already mentioned that I don't want a recipe .. I want to learn.

And because I want to learn I read, search and ask questions.

If I'm looking for a recipe, it wouldn't take much effort to find one and may be many here in this forum and there will be no need to ask questions .. just follow the recipe.

But again, I need to learn .. i need to understand.

Geo,

Thanks a lot for the valuable information about Safety .. This is really very important as one's life is more valuable than the gold.


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## THE SNOMAN (Dec 17, 2013)

Well I'm new here but I think we should end this very long post and move on because I think much was learned by all. Ahmadbyoumi can start a new post with his questions and if he gets answers then great. If not, then thats the way it goes. 

Now we can all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!!


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## butcher (Dec 17, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi,
It is my hope you can understand, My intent was to help a new starter that needed help if I could.
Obviously you did not like hearing what I said, part of what I said was made because I did not look far enough into all of your posts to see how you were progressing, and the title of the subject here New Starter and need Help, that and, you are so new to this forum, I was under the impression you wanted all of the answers now, my posts may not have been the best for you, or what you wish to hear, but I still believe it can help you get started learning recovery and refining better, if you do understand my intent, and use what I said to help you learn.
Have a Merry Christmas


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 18, 2013)

butcher,

Definitely, I didn't get upset as you didn't say anything wrong .. I totally agree with all what you have said.

I was just wondering, how did you think that I need a ready to use recipe and I don't want to learn or to spend time reading and searching ?!!

I'm sure that easy come .. easy go.

And I already mentioned earlier in this thread "I don't like easy stuff .. sometimes I just need to know the right way .. then I reach it myself"

Also I said "one just needs to spend some efforts .. then when things work good, you think you deserve that"

So I believe in that , may be because of my studies as I'm a communication engineer 8) 

Anyway, Thank you very much for you and all members here .. it's really a great forum.

THE SNOMAN,

Hope you enjoy your time here as me .. 

Long posts is not always something bad .. it may be considered as a consolidated thread for may topics.

Happy new year for everyone here


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## butcher (Dec 18, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi,

We cannot see each other, we cannot look each other in the eyes, when we communicate, just typing we can easily misunderstand the written word. By only having or using only a small part of what it normally takes for humans to communicate with each other, misunderstanding can come easier.

Many times we do not know who we are talking to, or their background , or what their experience is.
You are a new member, I do not know you, or have any Idea of your experience. or really what you have done to gain experience...

Sometimes it is hard for me to picture who I am talking to when I reply to a post, going by a name, unless the name is a long time member who I recognize, I am terrible with names but I do not forget a face.

In this case, as I said I did not go back and read everything you have written on the forum, I was responding to one of your posts, and by what you had written in that post, I was also going with my response, the fact you were new, the topic tittle "New member needing help to get started", and yes my response was based quite a bit on those clues, my response was kind of a canned response to help new members, all of us new to this field usually have the same problems when we get started.

I hope you being a student of communication you can understand that.

With that said Read Hoke's book and study the forum, use the search and the web, ask question when necessary, I hope to help you anyway I can. I may not always give you the best answer, or say things the best way, or I can be wrong in what I say, it might not fit your circumstances, but if you are not ready to get a response, or an answer to a question you do not like, you should not ask the question, you will not always get the right answer or a response that fits your question or your problem, we may not always know what you have done or know your experience, we may not completely even understand the question...

If it does not fit your situation or your problem move on, find that answer that will.
We are all here to help each other the best way we know how, we may not always be right in how we go about that.

I Hope you understand.


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 19, 2013)

butcher,

I really do appreciate your advise, and I'm sure that you are helpful but just want to make sure that others have done their homework.

And I'm sure that I'll get the help I need here sure after reading and searching and later may give help to others.

By the way, I'm not a student any more, I left the university 12 years ago 8) 

Thank you very much for you and for every one here taking part of his precious time just to help others


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## butcher (Dec 19, 2013)

ahmadbayoumi,

I have never been to a university, I am a student here on this forum, and I do look forward to learning from you.

I will be a student of gold refining and many other things of life, until they cover me with six foot of dirt.

I have learned many things here on the forum, this is my university in recovery and refining of precious metals, and other lessons of life, all of the members here teach me something, no matter how many years they have been doing this, I am their student.
I am thankful for all of my teachers here on the forum.

Your student Butcher


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## ahmadbayoumi (Dec 20, 2013)

Yes butcher .. definitely, we are still students in the endless university of life.

We have an old proverb here says : "One is still learning and learning, once he thought he has learned everything, then he started to be ignorant"

I have learned a lot and will still learning till the end of my life.

Again, thank you very much for you and for every one here taking part of his precious time just to help others


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