# Neutralizing acids



## Dadiola (May 20, 2014)

As I posted previously, I recently refined my first batch of gold. I live in a subdivision so I just cant go outside and dump my acid on the ground when I'm done with it (haha). After dropping the gold in aqua regia I had quite a bit of acidic water to get rid of and it took about half a box of baking soda being put into the solution until it quit fizzing. The nitric had already been neutralized with urea so I guess the baking soda was neutralizing the HCL? Just curious as if there are other ways in neutralizing the acids once you are done with them. Anyways, thanks for any input.


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## goldenchild (May 20, 2014)

Uuum. Did you drop out the heavy metals from solution before neutralizing?


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## Pantherlikher (May 20, 2014)

Umm...
Have you read through waste solutions and how to deal with the white elephant in the room?

Just wondering since you used UREA to "neutralize" the nitric in the AR.
This alone indicates you have not read anything to learn the right way of doing things.

B.S.


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## FrugalRefiner (May 20, 2014)

Dadiola said:


> As I posted previously, I recently refined my first batch of gold. I live in a subdivision so I just cant go outside and dump my acid on the ground when I'm done with it (haha). After dropping the gold in aqua regia I had quite a bit of acidic water to get rid of and it took about half a box of baking soda being put into the solution until it quit fizzing. The nitric had already been neutralized with urea so I guess the baking soda was neutralizing the HCL? Just curious as if there are other ways in neutralizing the acids once you are done with them. Anyways, thanks for any input.


Dadiola,

There are better methods than those you are using. 

In answer to your direct question, take a look at this thread: Dealing with Waste.

Dave


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## FrugalRefiner (May 20, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> Umm...
> Have you read through waste solutions and how to deal with the white elephant in the room?
> 
> Just wondering since you used UREA to "neutralize" the nitric in the AR.
> ...


Pantherlikher,

When you take the time to post, why not take a little more time to help? Instead of asking if he has read about the white elephant in the room (which may not mean anything to him), why not provide a link?

He just joined the forum today, so you're probably right that he has not read much here. 

I'm not sure how scolding a new member is a refiner helping a refiner.

Dave


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## Dadiola (May 20, 2014)

Yikes..thanks for the link. I dont think i will be refining enough to be using 30 gal containers. When i said alot of acidic water to treat i was talking about 800 ml (most of that was water used to dilute the acids during refining). Im only refining about an ounce of gold at a time (37 g of AU was the output). Yes, i put some iron in the solution to drop other metals but i just left them at the bottom of the solution as there was minimal precipitant. Im just after the silver and gold. No idea about the reference to the elephant and i have read copious amounts of info prior to my first try. Everything i have read usually used urea to negate the nitric acid so the gold will drop. It seemed to work for me. Is there something wrong with using urea. Edit..come to think of it i didnt really use much, if any urea, just because of the way i did it by adding nitric a little at a time. I put a half a spoonful in at most and got little or no fizz.

Anyways, after dropping any metals left with iron i just kept putting baking soda in until the fizzing stopped and added quite a bit more for good measure. I then poured about 200 ml at a time into a five gallon bucket of water and poured down the storm drain. Is there some safety issue i have overlooked? Sounds from the tone of some answers that what i did is frowned upon.

Anyways...thanks for the responses....


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## Pantherlikher (May 20, 2014)

FrugalRefiner you are correct sir and my apologies.

One should never answer with frustration in mind as I have.
It can be difficult with dealing with kids. I solute mothers and their daily grinds.

Based upon your use of Urea, you seem to not have learned enough to be doing what you are doing.
Go to the main board index and begin reading the welcome section of the forum.
Or... Up in the Google search box here, Put in Elephant in the room & later Urea.

Both will give you loads of research on learning the right way the process should be handled.

What you should do however is store everything and anything for now and begin reading the forum extensively to gain knowledge in what you wish to do so that you will not lose any PMs(Precious Metals) , cause a hazard to the environment, or worse, hurt yourself or others.

Hope this points you the right path and again, Please forgive for the chastising of my first reply.

B.S.
... I do refuse to give links as that can cause laziness and the need to ask instead of researching...


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## joubjonn (May 20, 2014)

Depending on the city you live in and the fact that you are small time (like me) you may be able to dispose of acids to a local collection site. Houston where I live has a collection site but I have not dropped off yet, I know because of a web site they have for this. Right now I keep all my used nitric and AR in separate sealed 5 gallon buckets since I started refining back in November. 

Note: I have found that I used WAY too much nitric acid when ridding base metals. I know this because when I tried to cement values (silver, maybe some palladium) I ended up dissolving a pound of copper in 3 gallons of what I thought was used up nitric. Not even sure if I got it all yet. Still need to check this week. From now on I'm going to be more frugal with the nitric. I have all the time in the world now that I know how to do it correctly thanks too that search bar in the upper corner and the fantastic members here.


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## FrugalRefiner (May 20, 2014)

joubjonn said:


> From now on I'm going to be more frugal with the nitric.


I applaud that idea! 8) 

Dave


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## goldenchild (May 20, 2014)

Hmmm. Sounds like he did everything pretty much correctly from what he described. My first question was to see if eliminated the aqueous heavy metals which he did. That is the most important part. He probably even got some of the iron to drop down because of the excess baking soda. Getting the iron out of solution before disposing isn't even necessary but is thorough.


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## butcher (May 21, 2014)

Dadiola said:


> Anyways, after dropping any metals left with iron i just kept putting baking soda in until the fizzing stopped and added quite a bit more for good measure. I then poured about 200 ml at a time into a five gallon bucket of water and poured down the storm drain. Is there some safety issue i have overlooked? Sounds from the tone of some answers that what i did is frowned upon.
> 
> Anyways...thanks for the responses....



Where do you think that solution went when you poured it into the storm drain? 
A creek, a river, to yours, or someones drinking water down river.

Did this salt water solution contain heavy metals as carbonates, Would you consider drinking this salt water, (I hope not), knowing you will not be poisoning yourself or others, knowing you properly treated it for disposal and are disposing of it properly?

I suggest taking the time and trouble to learn to treat your waste solutions properly, and dispose of them properly, what little a man may make from refining a little gold is not worth the cost of someones life, or its not worth poisoning someone over.

It does sound like you are trying to learn, but practicing something before you have learned properly, is a bit backwards, you should take time to learn waste treatment before you try to put gold or toxic metals into a solution, and you should also not dump it into a river (which people drink from) or a storm drain which goes to that river.

I would not want that waste you dumped, in my drinking water, from the description of treatment, I do not believe it was treated properly, and it was surely not disposed of properly.

Please take time to study before you play with gold or other metals in solutions.


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## Dadiola (May 21, 2014)

LOL...well I guess I could just pour it down the drain as I am told to do in the Hoke book that you all keep referencing...while Im at it I could just sit in an enclosed room with a fan near the window with a rag dipped in water over my face as I place my inquarted gold in nitric :shock: . All suggestions from the book...

The book is good reading but some of its practices are outdated....


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## solar_plasma (May 21, 2014)

It also depends on the material you are dissolving. But cementing on iron and only raising the pH to neutral and adding carbonate will not drop all poisonous metals.

Cementing on iron AND dropping hydroxides AND then neutralizing is a minimum. The filtered salt water then is still nothing you want to use for cooking or your coral reef tank. Better is to avoid waste and reuse what can be reused.


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## FrugalRefiner (May 21, 2014)

Dadiola said:


> LOL...well I guess I could just pour it down the drain as I am told to do in the Hoke book that you all keep referencing...while Im at it I could just sit in an enclosed room with a fan near the window with a rag dipped in water over my face as I place my inquarted gold in nitric :shock: . All suggestions from the book...
> 
> The book is good reading but some of its practices are outdated....


If you download either of the copies in my signature line, you'll find these issues and more discussed in the introduction.

Many things have changed since Hoke's time. Please don't use the book as an excuse for bad practices. 

And personally, I don't find it something to laugh out loud about.

Dave


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## Dadiola (May 21, 2014)

That is where i got it from. I said it tongue in cheek.. You fellas are too serious.


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## necromancer (May 22, 2014)

Dadiola said:


> You fellas are too serious.



you bet they are ! we are all here to help, not just ourselves but everyone and everything !

do you like fishing? do you eat those fish ?
do you eat locally grown food ? do you feed that food to the people you love and care for ?
take a second look at who should be serious about what they do

safety first :!: 

there are lots of things out there, take off the horse blinds please.


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## joubjonn (May 22, 2014)

The book was written decades and decades ago. Imagine if we never learned from our mistakes?


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## Dadiola (May 22, 2014)

necromancer said:


> Dadiola said:
> 
> 
> > You fellas are too serious.
> ...



Yes...no
No...no
I am serious..thats why i posted this topic to begin with. Like i said, i did research how to dispose of waste and came up with various answers (even in this forum and on the epa website). The general consensus was to drop with iron and neutralize. I just basically asked what you fellas neutralize with. I still have yet to recieve a reply to the basic question...just criticism of various things. Im not a kid, i did read the book, i have read tons of topics on this site and others, i did successfully refine a batch with none of the problems i see people complaining about on here. Everything went according to plan. The most productive answer i received was that i didnt drop hydroxides out of the solution before disposal. Thanks for that- by the way. I have researched that comment exhaustively but still cant find really anything which talks about that subject. 

Im refining more or less one ounce of pure gold at a time out of high carat jewelry and dealing with 200 ml of concentrated acids. Im not refining huge amounts as it seems most of the topics are geared towards. Just because i used urea, in example, doesnt mean i havent studied the processes...it just means that i chose not to evaporate the solution as some of you fellas do on huge batches..its alot more efficient for me to put half a spoonful in just to make sure its neutralized (which it was).

Anyways, later...i think im done posting in this forum...


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## solar_plasma (May 22, 2014)

No. The most important reply you got, was frugal's link to dealing with waste. This forum is not like anything else on the net, you can find everything you need just here. All those basics have been discussed over and over and this forum is full of posts from new people, who think to know almost all processes and just have this only question and after some time they are gone or they have learned, they just know almost nothing - I am one of them. 

When you didn't find what you need in the link, everyone here can help to point you in the right direction. But it is there. I know it, because I've read it and wow, I did find it by myself. But on other topics I got help. You have got help too, so just use it. 

yes, in some (many) points we are serious and never joke - hello and welcome from me, I hope you are one of the few, who stay here long enough to start loving and appreciate this forum as much as I do


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## Geo (May 22, 2014)

One trick I've learned to do when dealing with waste, less is more. After all precious metals have been recovered, evaporate all the waste liquids to near solid and place in a plastic paint can with a lid. WARNING : DO NOT BREATHE DUST FROM THIS! You can reduce drums of waste to one paint can and dispose of at the chemical dump. Here in Morgan county, there is a special "cell" at the landfill for chemical disposal.


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## butcher (May 23, 2014)

Dadiola,

I thought the members were being very helpful, they were pointing you to the answers to your questions, the very answers if followed would lead you were to learn, like treating wastes properly, pointing you to the links which need to be carefully studied, to get a better understanding of some of the basic principles in dealing with your toxic solutions.

Even after studying these, you should further your research into these important subjects, using all of the resources you can find.

Even the very good topics which you were pointed to, Like dealing with wastes in the safety section, does not go into great detail on some of the finer points of this very important topic, such as the amphoteric nature of many of the toxic metals we deal with, metals with bases, and at what pH a metal will or can, remain in solution, how different metals will precipitate at certain pH range where other metals may easily stay in solution, or where after precipitating a metal with a base an amphoteric metal will dissolve again if more base is added to this solution, or how some metals will form carbonates, hydroxides or other compounds...

Treatment of toxic metal solutions is a very serious topic, not understood by most, the chemistry involved can be very complex, and hard to understand, in the topic you were pointed to study (dealing with waste in the safety thread, it does give very good instructions written by 4metals), He gives instructions to cement many of the toxic metals from solution, using a more reactive metal (less poisonous) like iron, and to raise the pH to about 9.5 where most of the metals will precipitate, and then lower the pH back to neutral where some more of these toxic amphoteric metals will again precipitate from solution, He did not go into great depth to explain why, as this science can get fairly complicated, and many would not understand it anyway, and would have a hard enough time understanding, or even following these simple instructions of properly dealing with waste.

Dealing with waste is a very serious issue, anybody can be a want-a-be chemist or gold refiner, and mix up a very deadly waste solution, trying to get himself a little gold, which if dealt with improperly can harm many people around them, volume has little do do with it, if your waste kills one person, harms one child, or makes one baby sick, the volume of your waste improperly treated is still toxic and must be dealt with responsibly. 

The science in the chemistry of metals is not something you will learn by asking a few questions on a forum, and you will not learn to deal with toxic waste from asking a few questions on a forum, or from reading a few posts, even with some very good instructions of how it can be done properly, or by reading a little on the intranet, or seeing some video, this science takes study, and a lot of it at that, to even begin to understand.

Dadiola,
Recovery and refining is a serious science, and needs serious work to learn and do safely, if you are not serious enough maybe it is not for you, but if you are serious about learning, and willing to work to learn, you have found the best place to do it, with many friendly people willing to help you learn.

This science is not for everyone, and dealing with these toxic metal solutions, should not be done by every one, who just has an interest in getting some gold, and is not willing to learn how to properly deal with the toxic solutions, they may be dumping onto their family and neighbors.

Dadiola,
It is my hope you are serious about learning this science, and art of precious metal recovery and refining, and willing to spend the time to study, and learn how to deal with your waste properly.
Yes I am very serious.


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## 4metals (May 23, 2014)

> The most productive answer i received was that i didnt drop hydroxides out of the solution before disposal. Thanks for that- by the way. I have researched that comment exhaustively but still cant find really anything which talks about that subject.





> I just basically asked what you fellas neutralize with.



If you cemented your waste by first adding copper to drop any remaining precious metal values and then raised the pH with soda ash before adding iron you had a solution with predominantly iron chloride in it. The iron drops out of solution between pH 3 and 4. You are still on the acid side at this point so you should continue with lime or mag ox additions to bring the pH up to neutral. 

With the many potential mixtures and scrap types that are refined today it is impossible to tell all of the metals that may be in the mix. As every metal responds to different chemistry, there is no one simple answer to this question. The method outlined will get your waste into a more manageable form but to say it is safe to discard it without further analysis is not possible. 

Some refiners bring the solution to the point of a neutral liquid which all of the easily dropped metals have come out of solution and just evaporate the liquid leaving a salt which they collect.


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## Digitaria (May 23, 2014)

Geo said:


> One trick I've learned to do when dealing with waste, less is more. After all precious metals have been recovered, evaporate all the waste liquids to near solid and place in a plastic paint can with a lid. WARNING : DO NOT BREATHE DUST FROM THIS! You can reduce drums of waste to one paint can and dispose of at the chemical dump. Here in Morgan county, there is a special "cell" at the landfill for chemical disposal.



Hi Geo,

Just wondering about your tip, do you cement out the base metals from spent liquids first or proceed directly to evaporation?

Lisa


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## Geo (May 23, 2014)

Digitaria said:


> Geo said:
> 
> 
> > One trick I've learned to do when dealing with waste, less is more. After all precious metals have been recovered, evaporate all the waste liquids to near solid and place in a plastic paint can with a lid. WARNING : DO NOT BREATHE DUST FROM THIS! You can reduce drums of waste to one paint can and dispose of at the chemical dump. Here in Morgan county, there is a special "cell" at the landfill for chemical disposal.
> ...



Waste treatment is talked about in several places on the forum such as Lazersteve's "guided tour". I collect all waste solution and treat with copper. The solution is transferred to another container and then steel is used to precipitate the copper. As a note, Nickel does not cement out of solution, so no matter how much other metals can be removed this way, there will always be nickel in solution. Only after all less reactive metals have been removed and the PH brought to neutral is it ok to evaporate. I'm sorry I left all this out and should have known that not everyone has dealt with it before.

And too, for some, copper is a precious metal (myself included as I use copper as a reagent). Copper is a noble metal.


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## Digitaria (May 23, 2014)

Thank you.


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## Palladium (May 24, 2014)

Hummmm.....


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## 4metals (May 24, 2014)

Iron is the second metal of choice if you are running karat gold scrap, it is not too reactive and will drop the copper you used for cementation. You will get the nickel and chromium out of solution using aluminum but it can be quite reactive. Raising the pH with magnesium hydroxide will remove almost every metal you will encounter but it is difficult to control pH wise.


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