# First Catalytic Converters - Problem



## kadriver (Dec 30, 2011)

I opened up my four cats today and encountered a problem.

Two of them are ceramic - I think I know what to do with them.

My plan (with the ceramic cats) is to place both of them into a 5 gal bucket, add dilute HCl (50/50) and a few ml bleach.

I will cover losely, then sit the 5 gal bucket with the cats in a sealed, 50 gallon plastic gargbage can (with a tight fitting lid).

I'll add some clorox every day and stir a little until I get the bubbler rig set up.

The ceramic honeycombs came out just like in lazersteve's DVD.

However, If you look at the photos, two of the cats were constructed of what appears to be metal foils. These metal foils are attached to the casing. I could not get them out of the metal casings.

If someone on the forum has experience with these types of cats, then please advise on how I should proceed. 

I have not started any processing other than to get the honeycombs out of their casings (and I am already stuck with these two that are attached).

They are sitting in a box at my shop. I will work on them slowly. I know from experience and from seeing what others do that forging ahead blindly can cause problems.

Thanks - kadriver


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## kadriver (Dec 31, 2011)

I put the two ceramic cats in the HCl/Cl bath and tested some of the leach solution three hours later.

I was very pleased to see a faint but detectable reaction with stannous chloride.

Tomorrw I am going to open the 5 gal bucket and with a gloved hand, withdraw and agitate the cats to drain the liquid out of all the capilaries.

Then add some more clorox and give it another test.


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## wrecker45 (Dec 31, 2011)

can you run a chisel down the groove .the casing should open up....Jim :mrgreen:


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## kadriver (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks wrecker45, have you processed any of these metalic honeycomb cats before?

I found a thread that talks about them with lots of good info, but no mention on how to go about getting the PGM's from the metalic substrate:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5873

I will just hang on to these until I can come up with a process to recover the PGMs they contain.

I will take a thin sharp chisel and cut the inner foils from the casing, but then what. Apparently the foil is made of stainless steel.

I will get some of the material off and do a small sample in HCl/Cl to see what that will do.

Thanks man - kadriver


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## Photobacterium (Dec 31, 2011)

short of reducing particle size (cutting it up into pieces) it seems logical to use an acid resistant pump to send solution through the honeycomb.

some El Cheapo garden pumps have all-plastic insides, no metal. i wonder if placing one of those so that it sends the acid solution through the Cat honeycomb, would reduce cycle time.


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## qst42know (Dec 31, 2011)

The problem with all metal cats is there is always ample base metals to cement to. 

How do you keep anything in solution long enough to recover?

Incremental AR is the only way that I can see but that leads to a whole bunch of waste.


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## Smack (Dec 31, 2011)

If you have a press you can make a die to push the center out.


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## Tomac1 (Jan 2, 2012)

Hey man,

With the metal ones, just reflux in in AR, the whole thing should go into solution. Get the PGMs out in the usual manner. 

Evan


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## rusty (Jan 2, 2012)

The shredding of (metallic) catalytic converters, containing a metallic substrate (rolled up corrugated foil), itself coated with a thin layer of metal oxides (washcoat), is achieved by passing it through one or more different types of shredders, zerdirators, hammer mills, and the like, followed by separation of various fractions of steel scrap (such as can-fraction, foil-fraction) from the precious metal containing fraction (washcoat). At Umicore Autocatalyst Recycling's operations in Maxton (USA), the dedicated and highly elaborate shredding line is fully automated and is hereby able to achieve a high recovery yield for the washcoat.


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## kadriver (Jan 2, 2012)

Tomac1 said:


> With the metal ones, just reflux in in AR, the whole thing should go into solution. Get the PGMs out in the usual manner.



This is the second time tonight that I have heard AR for this type cat. I have a reflux condenser - is that what you mean by "reflux in AR"?



rusty said:


> the dedicated and highly elaborate shredding line is fully automated and is hereby able to achieve a high recovery yield for the washcoat.



Wish I had the use of that line - I bet it would make short work of getting at the PGMs in my metal foil cats.

For now, I plan to try and remove the outer case from the foil innerds by cutting the outer casing into 1" strips and chisel the foils from the stips (lots of work). Then I will digest in AR and proceed from there using the DVD from lazersteve.

I am better off now than I was 5 minutes ago. At least now I have a plan and I can work on it tomorrow.

I bought a nice DeWalt 10 amp electric angle grinder. It cuts through the thick metal casings very quickly - but it uses up cutting wheels just as fast!

Thanks!!! - kadriver


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## kadriver (Jan 3, 2012)

I was in another thread under the "Silver" index on this forum entitled "AgCl converted".

In that thread there was some discussion about stainless steel.

I believe that the metal foil substrate in these two catalytic converters is made of stainless steel (due to it's availability and durability).

Here is at least one reference to using stainless steel for the substrate (metal foil honeycomb) inside a foil type catalytic converter (information provided by butcher):

http://www.catalyticexhaust.ca/products_page4.html

If anyone on the Forum has information to the contrary, then I would like to hear about it please.

If the metal foil is stainless steel, then according to goldsilverpro, the metal foil would dissolve (long with the PGMs) in hot aqua regia.

If this is the case, then it looks like removing the stainless steel substrate (the honeycomb) from the outer casing and dissolving the whole thing in AR (with reflux condenser) is the way to go.

Nickle, chromium and iron in acid solution from the reaction (along with the PGMs).

Wow - looks like lots of work and lots of waste production to get a few grams of PGMs from these type cats - maybe that is why they are priced lower than the cats with ceramic substrate.

Any guidance would be helpful - kadriver


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## butcher (Jan 3, 2012)

How hard is it to make cyanide? I wonder how it would work here?
How would something like thiosulfate leach or reverse stripping electrolysis work?
Could the stainless be heated to high temperature in stream of gas chlorine fumes, and these fumes condensed,
Can stainless be heated to lower temperature and a solution washed through foils to wash off values as it passes through metals?

After looking at my questions, I think I would trade the stainless catalytic for some other materials to work with.

Sorry all I have is questions dissolving the stainless for a few grams of values just does not make sense to me either.


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## rusty (Jan 4, 2012)

The wash coat is pasted into the corrugated foil, and it's thick. Minus the weight of the dish the powder is 12.9 gr recovered from disassembly. There's plenty of wash coat left on the foil, these things are loaded.

Since this was experimental and not set up properly I did lose some of the wash coat. In future I think that I may wet these with some water before going to press next time.

Put the canister in a hydraulic bench press, squeeze the shell oval, then repeat the procedure in various locations until the foil has become free of the shell.

I think that if you became a little more aggressive with the press the wash coat might come completely free of the foil. Just try not to pinch the foil entrapping the valuable powder you want it to fall out freely. This is when I managed to recover some of the wash coat before the foil was even removed. Just tapped the shell on the anvil then saved the powder.

How ever you guys were more concerned about removing the foil and this is what I set out to do.


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## kadriver (Jan 4, 2012)

Outstanding! looks like the same thing I have. I don't have a press, but I can go down to my local Harbor Freight store and get one.

Do you suppose all that powdered washcoat is PGMs? I would put a pinch on a spot plate and add a few drops of AR and test with stannous.

I am glad to see someone has some working knowlege with these metal foil cats. 

Please keep us posted on your progress Rusty.

I have 20lbs of beads to keep me busy for the next couple of days.

Thank you - kadriver


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## rusty (Jan 4, 2012)

kadriver said:


> Outstanding! looks like the same thing I have. I don't have a press, but I can go down to my local Harbor Freight store and get one.
> 
> Do you suppose all that powdered washcoat is PGMs? I would put a pinch on a spot plate and add a few drops of AR and test with stannous.
> 
> ...



I've only got two of these foil types, so this project is not moving forward for the time being. I must admit that I was very surprised at the amount of wash coat that came free from the foil with the little bit of bending of the shell that I did.

Soak the foil down with water before pressing the shell these things are very dusty. It may even be possible that water could turn the wash coat into mud which could be washed free from the foil.

An Ultrasonic cleaner might dislodge the wash coat. 

Electrolysis of the SS may undermine the wash coat. 

Bumping and thumping inside a ball mill would also dislodge the wash coat.

Glad I could be of some assistance kadriver.


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## rusty (Jan 5, 2012)

The 12.9 grams used in this experiment is not the total available amount from one cat, only the dregs recovered from removing the foil from its shell. As shown in my post above.

I do not have an analytical scale so the next part of this experiment is useless, but for fun once the filters have dried I will re-weigh the mass left over from the wash coat. The digital scale I have is claimed accuracy: 0.1g

Coffee craft is more saturated, the big jar contains the filter wash.


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## rusty (Jan 5, 2012)

Todays lesson,,,, *Do Not Heat Foil Cats Then Drop Into Water, *


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## skippy (Jan 6, 2012)

rusty said:


> Todays lesson,,,, *Do Not Heat Foil Cats Then Drop Into Water, *



Rusty, that sounds just about violent enough to do the trick! :lol:


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## kadriver (Jan 6, 2012)

Rusty:

What are the solutions that you have pictured?

Did you dissolve the 12.9 grams of powdered material from the metal foil cats? Did you use aqua regia or HCl/Cl?

With respect to your warning to not heat the foil and drop into water, did you actually do this? If yes, and if you don't mind, then could you please share what happened.

I am trying to gain all the knowlege that I can before I begin work on the metal foil cats that I have.

Thank you for sharing your results - keep them coming as I am learning much from your experiments.

I found a 20 ton hydraulic press at Harbor Freight for $199 - complete with its own stand. 

Thank you - kadriver


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## rusty (Jan 6, 2012)

kadriver said:


> Rusty:
> 
> What are the solutions that you have pictured?
> 
> ...


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## rusty (Jan 7, 2012)

kadriver the end to the hydraulic ram should screw out, have a shop weld a short piece of angle iron onto the piece that screwed out then a small heavy steel plate for the base same thing another piece of angle welded to it. This helps to keep the object your pressing from kicking out possibly knocking your teeth out or worse..

Once you have made the shell oval in several places he foil will become misshapen allowing you to insert something sharp to detach the parts of the foil that have not come loose. I used a large sledge hammer on an anvil, your going to have better success with your press.

Large hydraulic presses have a safety cage in addition to using various jigs to hold work pieces in place, there's times I had wished for a remote control giving me some distance between myself and the press.

Hopefully Harold_V will make some suggestions on safety.


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## Harold_V (Jan 7, 2012)

Unfortunately, I've spent very little of my time with presses. What little I've seen, however, supports Gill's comments. Think safety when working with a press. Objects can be propelled with significant force should they get kicked out under pressure. It can easily prove to be a fatal experience. 

If a particular configuration is to be pressed time and again, the idea of a cage is excellent. I also endorse the idea of an inverted piece of angle, although it should be rather substantial in web thickness, to withstand the pressure encountered without being deformed. 

Harold


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## kadriver (Jan 7, 2012)

I used hydraulic presses when I was in the Navy - but I had forgotten about how frightening it is to stand near a press in operation.

This is especially true when working with a cylinder - it has negative stability when pressing on its outside surface.

Thank you for the warning, I will take the proper precautions.

Those metal foils cats are still in a box in my shop. I have been busy with ceramic inserts and beads. - kadriver


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## skippy (Jan 7, 2012)

Rusty, when you said it was a bad idea I pictured hot water and steam violently spraying everywhere but a 30' geyser! Ay Caramba! DId it remove the wash though? :lol: I wonder if freezing the foil comb in a block of ice might work to
loosen the wash too.


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## skippy (Jan 7, 2012)

I hate to bring it up, given the debate about dangerous info/suggestions on the board, but hot concentrated sulfuric acid might be able to dissolve off the wash coat without attacking the stainless foil. Of course all the same saftey concerns that Samuel expanded on in his thread would apply.


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## rusty (Jan 7, 2012)

skippy said:


> Rusty, when you said it was a bad idea I pictured hot water and steam violently spraying everywhere but a 30' geyser! Ay Caramba! DId it remove the wash though? :lol: I wonder if freezing the foil comb in a block of ice might work to
> loosen the wash too.



Yes there is some mud which settled out in the water pail, I'm afraid some may have ejected with the geyser. 

I'll dry the cat out then see if there is more wash coat that will fall out freely.

After drying the cat, tapping on the outer shell another 1/2 gr fell out, looking into the pail of water I can see that a lot of wash coat is resting on the bottom.

Hopefully kadriver will post his results using the press.


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## rusty (Jan 9, 2012)

Covered the foils over with water added 2/3 cup conc sulfuric acid.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRDhIUdVHGM&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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## kadriver (Jan 13, 2012)

Rusty - how did the material turn out after you treated with the dilute sulfuric acid? Can you post a picture? Thanks - kadriver


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## rusty (Jan 14, 2012)

kadriver said:


> Rusty - how did the material turn out after you treated with the dilute sulfuric acid? Can you post a picture? Thanks - kadriver



The wash coat came free, when the bucket thaws I'll post some pictures of the mud.


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## kadriver (Jan 14, 2012)

Rusty, it looks like you used dilute sulfuric acid to dissolve the base metals leaving behind the washcoat mud.

Is your next step - to rinse the mud with water, settle and pour off the water. Then dissolve the mud (which should be PGMs) in AR or HCL/Cl and then process with ammonium chloride and sodium chlorate?

Thanks - I am learning much from your post.

kadriver


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## rusty (Jan 14, 2012)

kadriver said:


> Rusty, it looks like you used dilute sulfuric acid to dissolve the base metals leaving behind the washcoat mud.
> 
> Is your next step - to rinse the mud with water, settle and pour off the water. Then dissolve the mud (which should be PGMs) in AR or HCL/Cl and then process with ammonium chloride and sodium chlorate?
> 
> ...



kadriver these experiments were done on your behalf and others having difficulty figuring out how to remove the wash coat.

Using a very dilute sulphuric acid outside in freezing weather the acid went to work immediately, the wash coat had released from the foils in less than 12 hours.

There was no need to keep the foils in acid longer other than I wanted some nickel sulphate for another project.

I've shown that the sulphuric acid works, there are no immediate plans to process the recovered mud. I'll decant, wash then dry before adding it to my inventory.


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## skippy (Jan 14, 2012)

Nice work Rusty! Nickel, chromium, and iron are all regulated for discharge, but it should be possible to filter them as hydroxides.


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## kadriver (Jan 17, 2012)

rusty - the info you have provided is appreciated - thank you.

My metal foil cats are still in a box as I have not procured the press yet. The press seems like the best method for getting at the PGM washcoat from these type cats.

I will add more to this after I have started work on the metal foil cats.

kadriver


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## Dan72ccx (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks wrecker45, have you processed any of these metalic honeycomb cats before?

I found a thread that talks about them with lots of good info, but no mention on how to go about getting the PGM's from the metalic substrate:

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5873

I will just hang on to these until I can come up with a process to recover the PGMs they contain.

I will take a thin sharp chisel and cut the inner foils from the casing, but then what. Apparently the foil is made of stainless steel.

I will get some of the material off and do a small sample in HCl/Cl to see what that will do.



Hi there
I have processed about ten metalic honeycomb cats. I took them out from the casing and incinerated them in a furness at 900c to remove any black
afterwards I put them in hydrochloric and heated on a hotplate to dissolve all the base metals quicker, when all the metal has dissolved there is left some ceramic residue,
let this settle, drain and wash and filter and then proceed as you would with ceramic honeycombs.

You may need to add more hydrochloric or drain the old stuff and use fresh hydrochloric, it all depends on how many combs you are dissolving. Overnight some salt
forms but it redissolves in the water.

Regards
Dan


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## kadriver (Jan 26, 2012)

Dan,

Dissolving in HCl - that is what I will do. Rusty dissolved his in sulfuric acid.

I am not familiar with the sufuric acid method, I am sure it works, but I know hydrochloric acid and its effects on the metals in the metalic foil cats.

How did you get the foils out of their casings?

The metal foil cats I have are attached some how to the inside of the casing. Rusty used a press to break his apart - he was sucessful in getting the material out.

I can get a press, but it costs $200.

Thank you for sharing your experience here - kadriver


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## butcher (Jan 27, 2012)

Angle grinder Harbor Freight tool supply, handy tool to have around. be sure and wear good dust mask and safety glasses.


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## kadriver (Jan 27, 2012)

Butcher, I got a nice DeWalt with a 10 amp motor on sale at Home Depot for $79. I seen one a Harbor freight for only $29.

I got the 10 amp and it cuts through the casings of those cats like hot knife going through butter.

But it uses the cutting wheels very quickly.

I used it to cut the casing on that metal foil cat. But the metal foil is welded fast to the casing.

Thanks!

kadriver


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## butcher (Jan 28, 2012)

they make several types of wheels, you may need a different wheel, also how you make a cut can effect how fast your wheel grinds away.

A chop saw is similar more expensive, very handy for metal work.


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## kadriver (Jan 29, 2012)

butcher;

I can't believe I overlooked the chop saw. I have a small one, but did not even think about using it to chop the ends off the cats until you mentioned it.

I have 20 more cats to cut open and I was kind of not looking forward to it. But the chop saw idea will make it a fun new venture - Thank You!

kadriver


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## qst42know (Jan 29, 2012)

Anyone know if a thiosulfate leach would be effective on platinum group metals from these foil cats?


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## kadriver (Jan 29, 2012)

I have been buying cats and I now have four that have metal substrate.

I want to tear into a metal foil cat to get started on them, but I am obsessed with getting some platinum metal (obsession is a charater defect of mine - when I find something I want - look out).

Working with PGMs has robbed my gold & silver time also. I have about 4 pounds of silver anode bars and 800 grams of 925 & sterling piling up with more coming daily - yet my silver cells are idle.

I did manage to get a gold bar made up over the weekend - I need the funds to finance this platinum frenzy I am going through.

I don't even know if the platinum phase I'm in is going to pay off.

The quest for platinum has consumed me - it's as if I were a slave to it!

I have about 15 more cats coming my way - I feel swamped and elated at the same time.

What a ride!

Sorry I don't have any experience to share with these metal foil cats - but I will when the time comes.

kadriver


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## its-all-a-lie (Jan 29, 2012)

i miss seeing your silver bars, still havnt won one on ebay but i am trying. you sell your gold to a refinery, right?


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## kadriver (Jan 29, 2012)

All my gold bars go to ARA in Dallas TX. But I will sell to the highest bidder of course.

kadriver


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## Dan72ccx (Feb 1, 2012)

Hi there,
you asked how I open metallic cats. I use a grinder with a disc for c'utting stainless steel which is very effective. One disc is enough for four cats or more but don't apply pressure when cutting. The tools I use are screw drivers, lever, sledge hammer, a chisel, safety gloves and goggles. That is more or less what I use.

Regards
Dan


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## spiderman (Feb 1, 2012)

A few years ago I used a drill with a long bit and hammer action to attack the honeycombe through at the opening. we had a hole in the bench and all contents where disposed into our barrel, we flew through around 100 cats in a couple of days, use a spray bottle to keep the dust to a minimun, i have also seen someone cut off a finger with a cuttinf tool. drilling is safer and helps keep your digits.


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## pgm (Apr 12, 2012)

I have tried these types of cat's and i would stay away...mate

too much work and little return on them...


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## Medplatinum refiners (Apr 26, 2012)

Yes, I agree with PGM alot of trouble but it is worth it still in my opinion, When buying Cats its hard to pick and choose since they come by random typically for most buyers.


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