# Anyone scrapped these old telex?



## Slochteren (Feb 4, 2022)

I can get some off these old Sagem telex machines. Is there any PM in these?


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## kurtak (Feb 4, 2022)

Probably - the real question is how much ?

take one apart & show us what is inside

Then we can figure out if it's worth tearing apart more then one

Kurt


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## Slochteren (Feb 4, 2022)

I don't have them yet, I can buy them for a bit more as iron scrap price, there are 20 and have to buy them at once.. If there is only iron in them its not worth the time...


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## kurtak (Feb 4, 2022)

Tell them the only way you will buy them is if you can tear ONE down to see if they are worth paying for

Tell them - like them - you are in business to make money - not loose money

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Feb 4, 2022)

I do not know about scrap.
But you did bring on a rather vivid flash back to being locked in a very long Nissen hut full of those for days on end at HMS Raleigh.
You have no idea about hell until you have been up for days on Naval tea and that god awful ratings slop they serve there and the twenty or thirty of those clackering bastards start to sound like they are laughing at you.


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## cosmetal (Feb 4, 2022)

justinhcase said:


> I do not know about scrap.
> But you did bring on a rather vivid flash back to being locked in a very long Nissen hut full of those for days on end at HMS Raleigh.
> You have no idea about hell until you have been up for days on Naval tea and that god awful ratings slop they serve there and the twenty or thirty of those clackering bastards start to sound like they are laughing at you.


Vivid imagery . . . thanks for the trip!

Your "clackering bastards" "laughing at you" is priceless. 

James


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## galenrog (Feb 4, 2022)

Repaired similar equipment back when the world was young. Couple of boards. Lots of tiny servos and relays. A few small motors. Had no interest in precious metals then. Of course, that was 40-45 years ago. Time for more coffee.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 4, 2022)

I would say, offer the guy whatever valuation you get for clean steel there. As it is not clean steel, he would get less otherwise. You say 20 of them, I say your cost to purchase the lot is probably $20-$40 USD (17.47 - 34.94 Euro) to buy. Sometimes they have pin boards/wire wrap boards in them. You could resell internal motors and components to electronic hobbyist. The clean steel will get you back a good chunk of your initial cost, break the plastics down and recycle them. since there is only 20, It's an inexpensive lot to potentially do well, and if it doesn't, well you're not really out any serious money, just a little bit of time, and you gain knowledge for future purchases.

Edit* Knowledge cost money, but taking the time to make this type of stuff work and be profitable gets you the contacts you need to be successful in the future. The contacts you gain become your trade secrets and allow you to progress where others cannot. A proper business isn't built in a day, it's built over time. As the saying goes- "If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.".


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## orvi (Feb 4, 2022)

Very old machines tend to have "PCB" like mounted keybords, which have very nice and heavy gold plated traces, serving as buttons/switches. Similar to mobile phones. 
Yes, it could be array of fixed switches which contain no values, but if you have the chance to break one or two out with screwdriver or pliers, you can clearly see if it is the stuff I am talking about.

For the price of only steel, I will certainly purchase the lot. If you have time to scrap them, of course. It could be losing game, but fairly cheap  still, if you can make like few USD out of one piece, you very nicely covered the investment cost. 
Few relays, servo motors, scrap iron. I will expect some transformer - as this is old stuff, and switching power supply weren´t prevalent back in the day. This could get you your money back fairly quickly. If no values will be inside.


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## orvi (Feb 4, 2022)

Here I found some pictures of opened up machine on Google. Personally, I will go for it, just for opportunity these boards have sockets with gold pins and also goldfingers on the cards. I can see some transistors (not gold leg tho), switches, EPROMs with sockets, some DIP ICs...
Motors, possibility of good keybord, printerheads could contain some plated things. Aluminium heatsinks... Vintage electric components could be reselled sometimes...
I will get this straight as it is. For the value of scrap iron, anytime


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## galenrog (Feb 4, 2022)

That is a lot more boards than in the stuff I worked on back in the early ‘80s. Lots of different models across the decades. 

The best advice has been given. Obtain a few. Tear them down. Determine the values. If worthwhile, obtain the rest. 

Time for more coffee.


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## Slochteren (Feb 5, 2022)

OK thanks for the advice, they are on an auction and I cannot open them. Looking at the pictures with the pcb it will be wurth buying them.. Will post some pictures from the inside when I have them..


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## kurtak (Feb 5, 2022)

Yes buy (as scrap iron) there are more cards in it then I thought - the plating on the fingers (should be) heaver them modern stuff & can run as high as 2.5 - 3 grams (pound of fingers) also the pins in the sockets the cards plug into should be larger - fully plated with heaver plating then modern stuff

then there are some (a few) epoxy IC chips (though the low grade PROM type) with bond wires

Also I see (what looks like) a few small "yellow" PROM chips --- those should have a little ceramic plate in them with silver/palladium 

Also *maybe* some silver/tantalum capacitors

Kurt


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## BlackLabel (Feb 5, 2022)

Slochteren,
I'd buy them.
These machines are looking very interesting.
I'm a little bit too far from the Netherlands (Stuttgart). Otherwise, I'd ask you to share the lot.
I'm sure, if you show photos of the PCBs inside, you can sell them on eBay for twice you payed. (If you find out, to scrap them isn't worth the time you spent.)


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## orvi (Feb 5, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> OK thanks for the advice, they are on an auction and I cannot open them. Looking at the pictures with the pcb it will be wurth buying them.. Will post some pictures from the inside when I have them..


It is also worth type the few variations of the machine/apparatus name in Google and search photos. Or add word "opened" or "teardown". 
Second option is to add word "PCB" or "board".
Third option is to search these exact things on eBay  many times you can find this on eBay, where is the possibility of more photos or photos of boards.

Most of the times, it is not exactly the same thing as you have, but it can give you better perspective of what to approximately expect.

And often, you find completely nothing  but still worth trying.


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## Slochteren (Feb 11, 2022)

I bought some, don't know yet exactly how much, between 20 and 25, will make some pictures from inside later, I took 1 keyboard apart and found these "switches" in each key, look like Reed relay, anyone know what's inside, looks like silver or palladium. The glastube is 1,5 cm long


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 11, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> I bought some, don't know yet exactly how much, between 20 and 25, will make some pictures from inside later, I took 1 keyboard apart and found these "switches" in each key, look like Reed relay, anyone know what's inside, looks like silver or palladium. The glastube is 1,5 cm long


Ferrous material such as a nickel-iron alloy, ferrous reeds. They work by using magnets.


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## Slochteren (Feb 11, 2022)

OK, also the coating on the tips? Never saw Iron nickel as contact surface, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exists... Just wishful thinking


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## orvi (Feb 11, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> I bought some, don't know yet exactly how much, between 20 and 25, will make some pictures from inside later, I took 1 keyboard apart and found these "switches" in each key, look like Reed relay, anyone know what's inside, looks like silver or palladium. The glastube is 1,5 cm long


Base metal is some feromagnetic alloy, but contacts are often plated. If it is silver/palladium or rhodium, I cannot tell from the picture. 

Easiest way is to pick like 5 pieces, smash them carefully (wrapped in some rag, beat it with hammer), remove the contacts and place them in some nitric acid. If it is some nickel/iron "stainless" type of alloy, they should be quite resistant to nitric attack, but sometimes they just dissolve... 
Important is the "plating". Silver and also palladium will go to the solution. Platinum not. And obviously, rhodium will also stay intact.
Filtered solution could be then tested with AgCl to see if there is silver.
If base metal won´t dissolve in nitric, you can also observe the colouration of the solution. Tones of yellowish-reddish-brownish could indicate palladium. This is better tested with DMG tho - if you add DMG and see yellow precipitate, it is Pd. 

Rhodium and platinum won´t do anything.


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## kurtak (Feb 11, 2022)

AMS-Pro said:


> Ferrous material such as a nickel-iron alloy, ferrous reeds. They work by using magnets.


True - however those reeds will more often then not be plated on the "contact end" with a PGM plating - PGM/silver alloy plating or even gold plating

Kurt


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## orvi (Feb 11, 2022)

I personally saw silver and rhodium ones. And heard about PGM/silver alloy, mainly PdAg.


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## Slochteren (Feb 11, 2022)

OK will put 10 in nitric these evening and see what happens..


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## Slochteren (Feb 11, 2022)

These pcb's are in them, single sided gold fingers on the onthere side then the components. Don't see much interesting. 1 tantalum and some metal cap transistors and the eproms wich have the gold paste. And some Dil ic's wich are, in my opinion, not worth the effort.


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## Slochteren (Feb 11, 2022)

And the backplane connectors, in these colored condensator is there any PM and that other part on the picture?


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 11, 2022)

kurtak said:


> True - however those reeds will more often then not be plated on the "contact end" with a PGM plating - PGM/silver alloy plating or even gold plating
> 
> Kurt


Yeah, that could be, I assume you mean contact end to the board. I have had mixed results with components like these. I think part of the issue with mixed results with these kind of components may have been where the glass is formed around the ferrous reed, it acts like a coating where it touches, and entraps what could be there. But' I would be to interested in seeing the results of some kind of testing, I hope Slochteren is successful in recovering something.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 11, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> These pcb's are in them, single sided gold fingers on the onthere side then the components. Don't see much interesting. 1 tantalum and some metal cap transistors and the eproms wich have the gold paste. And some Dil ic's wich are, in my opinion, not worth the effort.


I would pull the red switch too. You could check the blue as well internally. Cool looking PCB, I'm liking the eproms, thank you for the pictures.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 11, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> OK, also the coating on the tips? Never saw Iron nickel as contact surface, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exists... Just wishful thinking


With what Kurtak is saying, it could be on the tips (contact end). I just got off the phone with a contact I have in the industry, what I'm allowed to tell you is that they manufacture them with gold, or ruthenium as the plating surface for the contact points (edits* inside the case/glass). I hope that helps, this may not be the case with all of them that are produced by other companies, but it is with my contact.


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## Alondro (Feb 11, 2022)

kurtak said:


> True - however those reeds will more often then not be plated on the "contact end" with a PGM plating - PGM/silver alloy plating or even gold plating
> 
> Kurt


I also look inside test switches on the boards. Mostly, those have silver-plated bits on the inside, but sometimes, especially for high-end machines, it's gold-plated. Got a bunch like that from boards used for industrial equipment.


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## Slochteren (Feb 13, 2022)

I put 12 contacts in 53% nitric, cold 10c nothing happened after 1 night, did put them on low heat. The color turned green and the contact tips remained as foils. Did a stannous test on the liquid, added a video and foto off the stannous test, and a picture off the green liquid. Tested also with dmg without any color change. What would be the next step to determine the type of metal of the contacts.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 13, 2022)

Well, since ruthenium is immune to nitric acid, and hydrochloric acid, doesn't dissolve, you could take one of those foils and put it in a small beaker. Thoroughly neutralize any nitric acid on or in it with calcium carbonate, and rinse with distilled water, do this until you are sure no nitric acid is remaining on the foil at all. Remove foil to dry, and clean the beaker. Fill small beaker with bleach 50ml-100ml place beaker under your fume hood, and turn the fume hood on. Drop the single foil into the bleach. If the foil starts dissolving, and reacting it could be ruthenium. The yellow you would see coming off of it is ruthenate, and perruthenate ions. The bubbles you would see coming off of it will be a mixture of Ruthenium Tetroxide (an extremely toxic gas), and oxygen. If you decide to do this, please be safe and cautious. If it ends up being that, I would just leave the rest of it alone. Ruthenium is dangerous to recover, Ruthenium Tetroxide is not only extremely toxic, it is also explosive. In small scale it's not worth recovering, way to much risk, not enough reward, and should be avoided.


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## Slochteren (Feb 13, 2022)

thanks for the suggestion, I did some reading this evening about Ruthenium, didn't read anything about the use in contacts, I hope it is something else. Have to consider the testing procedure you mentioned..


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## orvi (Feb 13, 2022)

Stannous will tell you only if some values dissolved into solution. And as you have untouched foils, it is not Ag. And it is something more noble. It could be also platinum (but i never experienced platinum coated contacts), rhodium or as AMS-Pro said ruthenium (also never have/heard of ruthenium plated contacts).
Next i will consider take one foil, put it in the test tube, drop few drops of HCl and few drops of nitric. Heat.
If it dissolve, it is probably platinum. Ruthenium is insoluble in AR. Rhodium will probably dissolve to some extent, but it would be slow. 
If it dissolve and colour the solution (Pt and Rh produce yellow-orange and reddish coloured solutions, respectively), test with stannous. Testing for Rh with stannous is somewhat more complicated, but you can find it here on forum


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## orvi (Feb 13, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> And the backplane connectors, in these colored condensator is there any PM and that other part on the picture


Snap one with pliers. If it is ceramic inside, it could be MLCC, if there is rolled Al/plastic foil, trash.

Nice score with EPROMs, not something extraordinarily yielding, but you have quite a bit of them  also easy to process, clean work as practically no base metals are present.

Also, red "multi-miniswitch" and blue switches will be good for recovery. Some tantalum (various types in the boards), but it should be checked. Electrolytic caps and tantalums are often very similar looking, but tantalums are heavier. And you can also cut one open to see.

Black DIP ICs... depends. You said you have 20 pieces of this machines, so in the end, quite a pile of them. I usually chceck the insides. Some types have gold plated insides of the legs and surface under the silicon die. Yield is low, but with that volume it adds up. You must decide what is worth your time 

Also cut the top of some transistors to see if there is gold bonding wire and gold braze inside.


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 13, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> thanks for the suggestion, I did some reading this evening about Ruthenium, didn't read anything about the use in contacts, I hope it is something else. Have to consider the testing procedure you mentioned..


You're welcome. I wasn't aware of its use in contact points either until I was on the phone with that contact of mine. It was an interesting bit of tidbit to learn. I even verified it was that, and not Rhodium, when I heard it, because of hearing it. As soon as I heard Ruthenium, I was thinking oh no, not good as far as this discussion of recovering it is concerned.


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## Slochteren (Feb 14, 2022)

Ok i will take a few foils and put them in AR, sounds saver then the mentioned ruthenium test..


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## Slochteren (Feb 14, 2022)

They dissolve in AR, color of solution see picture, stannous test I would say dark red..


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## AMS-Pro (Feb 14, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> Ok i will take a few foils and put them in AR, sounds saver then the mentioned ruthenium test..


The Ruthenium test was only there if they hadn't dissolved in anything else.


Slochteren said:


> They dissolve in AR, color of solution see picture, stannous test I would say dark red..


Which they did, so that is wonderful that you don't have to deal with that. 
Your spot test kind of looks like it is showing for gold, but I'm also not seeing the dark red you're talking about so it could be my screen. you can dilute the spot sample 5x-10x and it should get more of a lighter purple if it's gold. You can also use filter paper, or a q-tip for a different visual.


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## orvi (Feb 14, 2022)

Dark red stannous... Platinum used to be orange to brown colour. But colour of the AR solution is similar to very dilute Pt.
Could be also alloy of metals used to braze the contact. Spot test on the photo does not look red to me, but this could be due to the photo. It look like some gold could be resent, but just guessing.


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## Slochteren (Feb 15, 2022)

Just checked the stannous by daylight and looks more like gold, also the stannous test from yesterday looks like normal gold test after 1 day. Will pull 100 contacts an threat it as gold, see what happens after adding SMB. Still wondering where the silver color comes from.


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## kurtak (Feb 15, 2022)

Slochteren said:


> . Still wondering where the silver color comes from.


One reason could be if the plating is a gold/PGM alloy

PGMs are a *bleaching* agent when alloyed with gold (or copper) thereby literally bleaching the color (yellow or red) out of the gold (or copper) making it white (silver)

It takes *very little* PGMs to bleach gold/copper which is why they use PGMs to make white gold

Nickle is also a bleaching agent for making white gold/copper alloys

Kurt


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