# Un sorted extraction



## Dioalma (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi everyone,

First post in the forum so go easy on me

I have been reading a lot of tutorials and watching some videos(actually it was "goldnscrap" that brought me here, thanks!) and I see that the most typical process is to first separate all the gold plated either by hand or by chemical process, then use aqua regia, then precipitate with smb and optional to do some more purifications to increase the purity level.

The part that gets me confused is why is there a need to separate the most gold possible before the usage of aqua regia since there is always the possibility of increasing the purity after using SMB.

So my plan that I hope you guys can tell me if I am thinking correctly or what am I missing and why shouldn't I take this approach is the following:

I have tons of old cellphone boards/ram/all types of gold containing electronics on them(already removed all the plastic)
And I was planning on grinding the entire thing into the finest powder I could and then use aqua regia(still waiting for the nitric to react so I don't have excess) directly followed by the precipitation using SMB, I know that this would give me a low purity level, but after that I would repeat the process a couple of times and I would expect a high purity level.

That's the first option, the second option would be to take a similar process to the one used to process chips.

First melt them with the furnace(everything in it, boards ram etc) and then aqua regia followed by smb and a couple of purifications.

Does this sound logical? I have a pretty big batch and I really don't want to ruin everything, also I am only interested in the gold for now.

Thanks in advance for the tips.


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## chuckgambale (Jan 30, 2017)

No is the short answer. Almost every single person that goes that route fails. Grinding everything up and throwing it in AR sounds so simple doesn't it. There are so many excellent posts about why this is a bad idea. Start with the library section of the forum and go from there. I'm sure our more esteemed and well spoken members can articulate why it's a bad idea better than me so I'll let them. There is good news, you came here with a question that actually puts you way ahead of those who come here with a toxic deadly bucket of acid and a whole bunch of metals dissolved in solution. Your in the best place to learn about refining from people with serious expertise. I truly wish you the best.


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## Dioalma (Jan 30, 2017)

Thank you, it gives me peace of mind that others have tryed this and failed, I guess I will try to isolate the most gold I can then.


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## nickvc (Jan 30, 2017)

Dioalma welcome to the forum.
To give you a reason why you should not try and just dissolve all the metals I will just mention stannic acid, this is tin dissolved, and it will also steal some of your gold.
It makes sense to try and do what gold miners do and concentrate your values, this makes recovery and refining of them much easier and gives better returns and purity.
I would suggest some reading before you try using any chemicals ,mechanical or hand sorting will be needed on a lot of items and it will be time well spent, not all metals react to the same acids or bases so having similar materials will make your life easier once you are ready to start.
I would further suggest some small scale tests before placing large lots into any chemicals, a small failure is not too bad, a large one will become a nightmare.
Good luck.


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## kurtak (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi Dioalma

Your first option is a VERY BAD idea - I do not have time right now but will take the time tomorrow morning to explain why - for now I will just say it will result in a "huge" mess & you will be "lucky" to recover all your gold

you wrote



Dioalma said:


> And I was planning on grinding the entire thing into the finest powder I could and then use aqua regia (still waiting for the nitric to react so I don't have excess)



Per the underlined (still waiting) I don't know if that is a mistake in what you meant to say or not because - in other words you start the question as "what if" I did this (meaning you have not yet done it) --- but then you say "still waiting" which would indicate you are already doing it :?: :?: :?: 

Your second option is a better option - BUT - it is a more advanced/complicated process & requires a fair investment in equipment - meaning there are better ways to get started with this

Don't get in to much of a hurry or you will find yourself making a big mess & in the end be wondering "were is my gold" --- take your time & we will get you headed down the right path so that the problems that go with the learning curve here are held to a minimum 

Will post more to answer you questions tomorrow 

Kurt


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## g_axelsson (Jan 30, 2017)

While you are waiting on Kurt's answer, here is a thread you could read to see why your first option is a bad idea. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25023

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 30, 2017)

The 1st is a very bad idea. The 2nd is a very bad idea if your goal is to make money from this.


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## Dioalma (Jan 30, 2017)

Thank you so much guys, by far the best reception in readyness to help in any forum I have been! :G 

Kurtak, the "still waiting" was a miss translation, I still haven't started anything yet. What I meant is just to say that I would add the nitric after, not pre mixing, so I will wait for the reaction and don't end up with excess of it.(English is not my first language)

I wait eagerly for your answer as I am very curious to get a more clear picture.

Now I see that I will do the separation of gold the most I can for sure, what I don't know how to approach are mainly 2 things now:


1- the cell phones boards have this sort of pretty huge stripes of gold all over the place as well as a lot of smaller ones, this are not fingers or something that I should/can cut, or else I would loose a very big amount.

2- the part of the ram,that is not the fingers, the one beneath of the chips, it also look to be full of gold lines, similar problem in the phones, that's when I though that I had to use everything.
And I only see people processing fingers and not the top part, is it less common? Do people or some people just throw away or resell the remaining ram?

Thank you again,
And sorry if this is already answered somewhere else, I do try to navigate on the entire forum the most I can looking for similar topics( thank you g_axelsson!)


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## g_axelsson (Jan 31, 2017)

Anything you see that is gold in a cell phone is gold plated. The only exception is the bond wires inside integrated circuits, they are solid but extremely thin.

The bond wires is a good source of gold and at a hobby level an effective way of recovering that gold is to incinerate the chips and then crush the ash and pan the gold. Look at the signature of patnor1011, http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3494

Another good thread is the one by Tzoax and the yield of different types of IC:s.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22951

There are a few members that are smelting scrap, I have no idea how profitable it is but there are economy in scale. The large electronic scrap refineries like Boliden or Umicore is using this method. If you have 10-20 tons or more of cellular phones or cleaned circuit boards then this is the way to go.
Personally I consider anything up to a couple of tons of circuit boards as hobby scale.

I'm looking into smelting as an alternative but I'm still on the dream to planning stage and haven't done anything practical except collecting half a ton of decent boards so far.

Göran


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## kurtak (Jan 31, 2017)

First want to thank you Goran for posting the link for Dioalma - that is a good example of why we don't just throw anything/everything into acid  



Dioalma said:


> Kurtak, the "still waiting" was a miss translation, I still haven't started anything yet (English is not my first language)



That is what I thought - just wanted to confirm that was the case --- English not being your first language is not a problem we have members here from all around the world & as long as you are using a good translator we can always work around small translation errors 



> Thank you again,
> And sorry if this is already answered somewhere else, I do try to navigate on the entire forum the most I can looking for similar topics



Just about any question you can possibly think of asking has already been answered on this forum - this forum has been around for something like 10 years & as a result it has become the worlds BEST source of information concerning the recovery & refining of PMs (Precious Metals) --- However - because of the VAST size &/or amount of information it can be difficult/frustrating searching for & finding "particular" information as a new member

WE have done a number of things to help new members with this problem - "one" of those things is we created The Library :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=85 

This is a good place for you to start your search for information about doing this (& we do expect you to spend time doing research on your own) the reason for that is that it helps give you a "basic" understanding about this whole thing - which in turn allows you to ask better questions - which in turn helps us give you better answers 

Also - we ask new members to read C. M. Hokes book --- she wrote her book long before electronic were a source of PM recovery & refining - BUT - the book WILL give a good/basic understanding of PM recovery/refining/processing --- therefore it is recommended new members read it --- you will find a copy of it as a free down load in the signature line at the bottom of all of FrugalRefiners post

Now on to answering your questions (option 1 & option 2)

The link Goran provided shows why we don't just throw whole CBs (Circuit Boards) &/or just any "components" (like pins still in there plastic sockets) striped from CBs into acid

You asked


> And I was planning on grinding the entire thing into the finest powder I could and then use aqua regia



This would be a "leaching" process - but ---------

That will create even more problems then the link Goran provided - one being as Nick pointed out being tin (from solder) --- tin - if not removed first can/will rob you of gold - at least some gold

Also - as pointed out by Goran - some plastics will cause problems - if those plastics are ground to a fine powder the problem is made even greater because all the fine particles of these plastics degrade into LOTs of tiny sponges that soak up your solution - robbing you of the metals you have dissolved in your acid --- in other words by grinding the plastic into powder you have "increased" the surface area of the plastic (sponge) thereby giving it more ability to soak up solution & rob you 

To ad to this problem of plastics that are degraded by acid - grinding the CBs (Circuit Boards) to a fine powder them selves - will cause the same problem of becoming a sponge that robs you of value --- the glass in the fiberglass of the CB will be pulverized into small hairy fibers that are going to soak up your solution of dissolved metals --- when you go to filter the solution out of this mess it is going to cause your filter to become plugged "very quickly" - even if you are using a vacuum to assist your filtering - that will make it next to impossible (if not impossible) to "wash" all of the solution out of the "mess" - thereby again robbing you of values that are dissolved in the solution

And finally - not only do you have to dissolve the PMs - but you also have to dissolve ALL the base metals --- that means you need to use more acid to do the job - MUCH more acid - that in turn means you create MUCH more waste --- this waste can not just be dumped down the drain - it needs to be treated to make it safe for disposal &/or sent out for disposal 

That means your cost goes up significantly both in the amount of chemicals you need to use to do the leaching & as well the cost in dealing with the waste --- ad that to the high potential of values lost by trying to do it this way & you will find that your cost is going to be greater then what you get out of it 

Now lets look at your option 2 --- This would be a "smelting" process 

I said this is more doable (but not really the place for a beginner to start out) & goldsilverpro said - "The 2nd is a very bad idea if your goal is to make money from this."

Both those comments are right --- the fact is - that Smelting is the way the "big boys" do it - the big boys being the big companies that process CBs by the semi truck load(s) --- these BIG companies are able to use smelting & do so at a profit because of the "huge" volume they are handling

The small hobby refiner can also do it & make a profit with the smelting process - BUT - it is most certainly not the place for the beginner to start with - there are easier &/or quicker ways for the beginner to start with in order to see results &/or profit - so goldsilverpro is right in his statement as well

Just as starting point to explain why smelting is not the place for the beginner to start --- smelting is much more involved then simply grinding the boards to a fine powder & then putting the ground powder in a furnace to melt the metals (& then dissolve the metals in acid to recover the PMs)

Here is a link to a post that explains why (whether the CBs are whole boards or boards that have been simply ground to powder)

:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23680&hilit=smelting&start=30#p250170

After reading that post - read the whole thread --- the post I am linking you to explains why your option 2 wont work --- the rest of the thread details what is actually involved to do the smelting process

Hope this has been helpful & now that we have touched the tip of the iceberg (&/or shown why your suggested options wont work - at least not well) we can now start working on getting you headed down the right path

Oh - & you can just call me Kurt - you don't need to ad the ak to Kurt (kurtak) :mrgreen: 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Jan 31, 2017)

Goran 

I thought you said you were going to wait till after I posted again :lol: 

Just kidding my good friend :lol: :twisted: :lol: 

I guess I'm just to slow  :lol: 

Dioalma - here is a more direct link to the thread by Pat that Goran was trying to direct you to (the first link in the last post Goran posted) Both Pat & Tzoax threads are well worth reading

:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=11827 

Kurt


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## g_axelsson (Jan 31, 2017)

Well, there was some new questions and I thought I knew the answer to it.  

Göran


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## Dioalma (Feb 5, 2017)

Thank you Kurt, Thank you everyone,

Sorry for taking so long to reaply, I wanted to reaply after I read everything but is just a lot to go thru!

For know I really have a much more clear picture specially as to why my first idea is such a bad one.

I want now actually to invest sometime to understand fully the costs and the process of the smelting, because if I could avoid quemicals would be ideal for me since I don't have a lab and I have to do stuff outside in nature for now..and for this I will read all the threads you shared with me.

But as a curiosity then. If I were to follow the typical beginner method I would just have to ignore the gold plated lines in the cell phone CB's?or is there any other way to separate? I don't imagine then coming out as easy as ram fingers...


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## Dioalma (Feb 7, 2017)

Hey guys,

I have been reading the links that you posted me and now I have a pile of ic chips and sorted gold plated, the only thing I am still in doubt on how to approach are this guys:






What approach would you use? Quemical, inceneration or...

Also completely unrelated, do you think this is gold plated? they where inside speakers if I'm not mistaken.




Cheers!


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## UncleBenBen (Feb 7, 2017)

Gently scratch through the green solder mask with a sharp blade. If there is gold underneath, you will need to remove the mask before it goes into the copper(II)chloride leach.(AP)

The pizoelectric speaker is just brass.


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## Grelko (Feb 7, 2017)

UncleBenBen said:


> The pizoelectric speaker is just brass.



It's brass, but test the white/grey area for silver. It breaks off very easily, but I've had positive results using 18k gold tester.


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## upcyclist (Feb 8, 2017)

Dioalma, for the gold-plated traces on your boards like your first two pics, your best bet is probably to do them in a copper chloride leach (sometimes incorrectly called Acid-Peroxide (AP)) if at all. Some folks just toss them in HCl and forget about them while they process other bits. The circuit boards + HCl will form a CuCl2 leach on their own, eventually, using the air in the bucket. But don't forget BenBen's comment about scratching through the solder mask if necessary.

As with everything else, this is all discussed here on the boards. The search bar is your friend. See also Understanding Copper Chloride.


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## Dioalma (Feb 9, 2017)

Thank you!


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## LT_golden (Oct 30, 2018)

Another old thread... but anyways.


Hi Dioalma,

Dunno if you've scratched the cell phone boards yet to see if they have gold underneath the soldermask. If you did indeed find gold underneath, hopefully you've already found a way to remove the soldermask.

If not, here's how I did it.

1) Place all the items you want to have the soldermask removed into one heat resistant glass (eg. Pyrex) dish, make them as level as possible, flat against the bottom of the pan.

2) Put in enough water to fully cover the components/boards/etc. Add in a heaping tablespoon of sodium hydroxide or lye, and mix around a little to dissolve. This reaction is exothermic (emits heat), please be careful!

3) Place pan with solution/boards/components into oven, turn on and set to ~200 deg. C, and let cook for 20-30 minutes. I believe that even a conventional oven *with no aluminum parts* (since with sodium hydroxide and aluminum you could generate hydrogen gas and in a heated region may explode violently) should be fine. Alternatively, you could do it on a grill, but contact with the flames makes me scared that the glass would break... But I've heard good results from direct heating, too. But, *please do not do this with or near anything you would use to prepare food!!*

4) After the heating, wait for the pan and its contents to cool to a comfortable (touchable) temperature. Then, *wearing gloves and other protection* (because it _is_ lye and you certainly do not want it touching your skin or eyes, etc.), use a pair of tongs and an old toothbrush to brush off the soldermask. The usual green soldermask is easier to remove; blue ones are harder, and if I'm not mistaken, red ones aren't very difficult, but black ones are most difficult. You may have to repeat the cooking for boards with black soldermask.


That's really all there is. Great Old Ones, please do let us know your suggestions and/or corrections. I've done this successfully myself. My oven showed no damage, and had no odors from the aqueous sodium hydroxide fumes. I haven't done a litmus test on the insides of the oven, though.

EDITED: Removed bad advice as pointed out by jimdoc and anachronism below.


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## jimdoc (Oct 30, 2018)

LT_golden said:


> My oven showed no damage, and had no odors from the aqueous sodium hydroxide fumes. I haven't done a litmus test on the insides of the oven, though.



Is this the oven you cook your food in? Like in your kitchen?


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## LT_golden (Oct 30, 2018)

jimdoc said:


> Is this the oven you cook your food in? Like in your kitchen?



The one I used had been in storage for the last three years. Since we moved, that oven no longer fit anywhere reasonable at our new place. I dug it out for this purpose, but found that there were no stains, no smells, and no corrosion.

Is baking PCBs in aqueous sodium hydroxide in an oven used for cooking really a bad idea?

On YouTube, there was this dude with a... magnificent beard... who did just that. Granted, his whole demeanor made me want to do more research, but I figured that lye was just a cleaning agent... and inside the oven... shouldn’t be too bad, right?


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2018)

LT_golden said:


> 3) Place pan with solution/boards/components into oven, turn on and set to ~200 deg. C, and let cook for 20-30 minutes. I believe that even a conventional oven should be fine, because, well, sodium hydroxide / lye is basically just a common cleaning agent; and you won't be drinking the solution or licking the insides of the oven, *so I believe that doing it inside your home oven should be safe.* Alternatively, you could do it on a grill, but contact with the flames makes me scared that the glass would break... But I've heard good results from direct heating, too.
> 
> That's really all there is. Great Old Ones, please do let us know your suggestions and/or corrections. I've done this successfully myself. My oven showed no damage, and had no odors from the aqueous sodium hydroxide fumes. I haven't done a litmus test on the insides of the oven, though.



No. 

Seriously - you cannot do this and please don't be giving this kind of advice on this forum. It's just ridiculous and wrong. I'm not entirely sure why Jim has been the only one to pick up on this so far. 

If this is the kind of thing you're used to suggesting then there are other places more suited for you than this forum.


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## LT_golden (Oct 30, 2018)

anachronism said:


> Seriously - you cannot do this and please don't be giving this kind of advice on this forum. It's just ridiculous and wrong. I'm not entirely sure why Jim has been the only one to pick up on this so far.
> 
> If this is the kind of thing you're used to suggesting then there are other places more suited for you than this forum.



Hi anachronism,

Got it. Truth to be told, I’m going through my first run ever on refining, myself. I realize that I’m probably not qualified to give any sort of advice relating to chemicals, etc., since I’ve never worked with them before now.

So, I sincerely apologize to any members who have come across that post of mine. Please disregard my bad advice!

Is there any way I could go back and delete my post or modify contents to remove that part?
EDIT: _I found the Edit button and have gone back and modified my post. Is it more acceptable now?_

And anachronism, could you help me understand or point me in the right direction of why doing this in an oven used for cooking is such a bad idea?

Thanks. I’m trying to learn, even through mistakes, though I am hoping not to make too many... especially the dangerous ones. And I sincerely appreciate anyone who’d help with correct and safe information.


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## nickvc (Oct 31, 2018)

I’ll try and help point out some of the more obvious dangers involved in recovery and refining.
By burning, pyrolysis or incineration gases and some solids will be released virtually all of which are toxic to some degree and some of which are highly dangerous which is why you should never do these processes inside your home or use any item that you or will use in your house.
Simple recovery processes using acids release fumes all of which will cause considerable damage to the fabric of any building and particularly any metals in them unless proper extraction is used that keeps a constant airflow removing the fumes.
Refining goes even further into the danger zone with release of chlorine gas or noxx fumes neither of which you want to inhale and depending on what you working with the solutions and fumes can contain toxic salts which will eventually make you terminally ill.

For all newbies I thoroughly recommend reading the safety section here on the forum and understanding exactly what the dangers are and where from.


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## anachronism (Oct 31, 2018)

Hi LT - thanks for your comments. 

As Nick mentioned it's the other things that are produced when you have a reaction that cause the issues rather than the caustic soda itself. I agree that reading the safety section is a great start. If you start off by being sensible and safe then you'll progress by being sensible and safe. 8) 8) 

Jon


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## kurtak (Oct 31, 2018)

Take Jim, Jon & Nicks advise :!: :!: :!: 

The gold under the solder mask of "consumer" circuit boards is so ultra thin that it is not worth the cost of the chems needed to recover the gold --- in fact it is so thin it is not worth the cost of the chems to recover the gold if the CBs had no solder mask to start with - so the cost of the NaOH is an additional cost to the gold recovery of an already chem cost loser

Therefore - it is flat out "foolish" to spend the money - let alone the time on this DANGEROUS process :!: :!: :!: 

Kurt


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