# Nitric in Florida or Send to a Refiner



## metatp (Mar 16, 2010)

I've been trying to find Nitric Acid in south Florida for several months now. I would love to find one of those re-packager that QSP mentioned. I spoke to the one in Kansas, but he says he can't find a carrier that will ship only one case of this hazardous material. I just can't find tech grade anywhere where they are willing to ship it. Any help in South Florida would be great. I have about 25 pounds of 80-95% silver to refine. I am thinking about selling it to a refiner for 90% spot for the silver recovered, but I don't want to get ripped off by as crocked refiners that I have no information about. Then I might just buy some silver and gold bars with the proceeds.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks,
Tom


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Mar 16, 2010)

Tom:

You can make your own nitric acid,sodium nitrate and sulphuric acid are needed.You can find both in garden stores and car supplies stores.The process has been posted in this Forum as "poor men´s aqua regia".Take a look.

You can refine your own silver,take a look at Steves´s videos on his website.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## metatp (Mar 16, 2010)

Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:


> You can make your own nitric acid,sodium nitrate and sulphuric acid are needed.You can find both in garden stores and car supplies stores.The process has been posted in this Forum as "poor men´s aqua regia".Take a look.


Manuel,

Thanks. I did know about making Nitric Acid from Sodium Nitrate and Sulphuric Acid. I just did not want to go there. If I can get the tech grade nitric acid, it is cheaper than making poorman's nitric acid. The guy in Kansas is sell 1 galloon of nitric acid (67%) for $16.50/gallon. I think poorman's nitric acid was costing me much more.

I already refined about 7 pounds of silver with the nitric acid I bought about a year ago.

Thanks,
Tom


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## leavemealone (Mar 16, 2010)

> The process has been posted in this Forum as "poor men´s aqua regia".


You mean Poor mans nitric.And most of the nitres you find in hardware stores will be in the 20% range.You can find much more pure nitrate (around 100%)on ebay for $26 for 10 lbs,and I get my sulfuric for $24 for 5 gallons,which is 32% and I concentrate it myself.
Johnny


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## metatp (Mar 16, 2010)

leavemealone said:


> And most of the nitres you find in hardware stores will be in the 20% range.You can find much more pure nitrate (around 100%)on ebay for $26 for 10 lbs,and I get my sulfuric for $24 for 5 gallons,which is 32% and I concentrate it myself.
> Johnny


This is the same thing I am finding, almost to the penny. About how much money are you paying for the nitric acid after processing? Do you know what the concentration of nitric acid is when you are done (50%)?

Thanks,
Tom


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## leavemealone (Mar 16, 2010)

> About how much money are you paying for the nitric acid after processing? Do you know what the concentration of nitric acid is when you are done (50%)?


Hi tom.You can buy nitric for about $6-8 a gallon (plus drum deposit) if you are fortunate enough to get it from a large distributor like brentag.Making it yourself is less expensive than purchasing it from a resaler or from ebay,however its very time consuming and the final product is only about 40-50% concentration.
If done correctly,the cold method will yield very close to the amount of concentrated sulfuric that you start with.You will lose a small percentage to evaporation,and whats left behind in the salts that you will not be able to recover effectively without dissolving the salts.But if you start with 500ml of conc. sulf. you should end up with close to 500ml of 50% +/-.This should react quickly with a small piece of copper.
You vital points in the method are:
Concentrated sulfuric.The higher the concentration going in,the higher the concentration of nitric coming out.
Cooling:it is imperative that you get as much salt out as possible,I usually let it sit over night in a ice/salt bath in the freezer.
Seperating the nitric from the sodium:when decanting,many people have the desire to "rinse" the formed salts in the bottom of the vessel.....do not.You will not be able to "squeeze" every drop out of the salts,just accept this.As soon as water touches the salts it dissolves it,thus ruining what you are trying to accomplish in the first place.
Johnny


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## metatp (Mar 18, 2010)

I did a quick calculation, and figure it will cost me approximately $46/gallon (~50/50) to make my ownnitric acid. This is based on buy 10lbs of sodium nitrate. Even with $125 shipping charge for 4 gallons at $16.50/gallon, it only cost me $48/gallon (70/30) with no processing work. That's an estimate $32/gallon for 50/50 nitric acid. If I can get cheaper shipping or find a place locally for about the same price, that would be even better.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

HTPatch said:


> I did a quick calculation, and figure it will cost me approximately $46/gallon (~50/50) to make my ownnitric acid. This is based on buy 10lbs of sodium nitrate. Even with $125 shipping charge for 4 gallons at $16.50/gallon, it only cost me $48/gallon (70/30) with no processing work. That's an estimate $32/gallon for 50/50 nitric acid. If I can get cheaper shipping or find a place locally for about the same price, that would be even better.



Double check on Ebay for sodium nitrate, your cost is way too high. Or use potassium nitrate. I think you might be way off here on your calculation. No offense.


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## metatp (Mar 18, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Double check on Ebay for sodium nitrate, your cost is way too high. Or use potassium nitrate. I think you might be way off here on your calculation. No offense.


Here is how I did my calculations. This is based on the video that was based on Lasersteve's recipe.

Cost of Sodium nitrate on Ebay for 10 pounds is $19.95 + $11.73 S&H.
Cost of 35% Sulfuric Acid is about $5 per gallon.
Cost of Distilled water is about $1 per gallon.

To make about 500ml of 50/50 nitric acid, I would need 700g of sodium nitrate, 500ml water, 280ml of 98% sulfuric acid.
My calculations show that the 500ml of nitric acid would cost $4.93 for sodium nitrate, $0.13 for water, and $1.04 for 98% Sulfuric acid.
That is $6.10 per 500ml or $46.19 per gallon.

Please correct my math where I am wrong. 

Thanks,
Tom


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

HTPatch said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Double check on Ebay for sodium nitrate, your cost is way too high. Or use potassium nitrate. I think you might be way off here on your calculation. No offense.
> ...




On your sodium nitrate I come up with $4.88 but I'm not going to pinch pennies on this, I will stay with your figures.

You are claiming 6.10 for 500ml, where is the 280 ml of sulfuric figured in? This would be a total of aproximatley 780ml produced.

6.100/500ml=.0122/ml
6.10/780ml=.00782/ml

3,785.41178ml*.0122/ml=46.19/gal
3,785.41178ml*.00782/ml=29.60/gal

Now this is for concentrated nitric. If you dilute it to 50/50 with water when you do you processes the lower cost runs $14.80 per gal.

I think this is correct. 8)


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## metatp (Mar 18, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> On your sodium nitrate I come up with $4.88


I rounded up to $32 for 10lbs.



Barren Realms 007 said:


> You are claiming 6.10 for 500ml, where is the 280 ml of sulfuric figured in? This would be a total of aproximatley 780ml produced.)


Based on the video, 280ml of 98% sulfur acid is needed to make about 500ml of 50/50 nitric acid. Is this not true? This is what I based my calculations on. I assumed that the rest of the water boiled off in the process.



Barren Realms 007 said:


> Now this is for concentrated nitric.


How is this concentrated? Even your post said it would be 40-50% concentrated. Am I misreading something? Was your statement based on 35% sulfuric acid?

Thanks again,
Tom


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 18, 2010)

HTPatch



> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > On your sodium nitrate I come up with $4.88
> ...



Ok this makes sence. Or is it cents. :mrgreen: 



> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > You are claiming 6.10 for 500ml, where is the 280 ml of sulfuric figured in? This would be a total of aproximatley 780ml produced.)
> ...



Did you see of hear him say anything about boiling the water off in the video down to 500ml? I would have to go back and look at it again and see. But that statement does not stick in my mind with his videos and i have watched them a few times. He could have tho. So if he dosen't boil it down where is the balance of his liquid going? In his solution of nitric! Now this by no means 98% and would have to be boild down to get to 98% if you have to go that far. The only way I know to test this would be a specific gravity test on the liquid if I'm correct.

Steve,Harold,Lou,Oz,GSP,someone. Please explain the principle of what the water does during the process and how it converts and why all of it will not be boiled off. This is above me at this point to get it across correctly.



> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Now this is for concentrated nitric.
> ...



The dilution I am refering to is during use most of the time you will dilute the nitric 50/50 to use it because you get a better reaction from your solution rather than using 98%.


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## metatp (Mar 30, 2010)

leavemealone said:


> Hi tom.You can buy nitric for about $6-8 a gallon (plus drum deposit) if you are fortunate enough to get it from a large distributor like brentag.


Well, I contacted the supplier where I was got reagent grade nitric acid for $50/2.5L The shipping was less that $25 (+the $24 HazMat) for 5L. When I called them, I asked if they sold tech grade. They do in 15 gallon SS drum for $135 (+250 deposit). When I asked about shipping, it was only $50 + $26 HazMat. It turns out that they have distribution in Miami. This is great, but I only need 5 gallons. I guess I'll have plenty for the future. I can pick it up, but I do not know the laws for transporting 15 gallons of NO3. Might just be best to have it shipped.

What I learned is that don't be afraid to asked the ones you already know.

Thanks all,
Tom


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## butcher (Mar 31, 2010)

Barrens Quote "(In his solution of nitric! Now this by no means 98% and would have to be boiled down to get to 98% if you have to go that far. The only way I know to test this would be a specific gravity test on the liquid if I were correct.

Steve, Harold, Lou, Oz, GSP, someone. Please explain the principle of what the water does during the process and how it converts and why all of it will not be boiled off. This is above me at this point to get it across correctly)"


If I understand your question here you are asking about the azeotrope of nitric acid with water.

Nitric acid azeotrope with water is approx 68%.

Below this point, if nitric was made less than 68%, and evaporated it would concentrate (evaporating mostly water from solution), until we reached 68%, this is the highest we can concentrate the nitric further boiling will just boil off our acid until almost dry, 68% is the most we will ever concentrate it by this method.

Temperature and concentration is important when evaporating and concentrating acids, the boiling point of the acid versus water changes with concentration, and whether the solution has a positive or negative azeotrope,
Example water boils at 100 deg C, 
20% HNO3 boiling point is 103 deg C,
30% HNO3 boiling point is 107 deg C,
50% HNO3 boiling point is 116 deg C,
70% HNO3 boiling point is 121 deg C,
90% HNO3 boiling point is 102 deg C,
98% HNO3 boiling point is 86 deg C,
Notice here when we get above the 68% azeotrope of nitric acid the boiling point goes down in temperature.

if we made nitric stronger say 80% and boiled this we would only weaken our solution, since we have a concentration greater than azeotrope of nitric acid, boiling this would mostly boil off nitric as NOx, until the solution reached 68% and further boiling will just evaporate off this concentration.

There are ways to get stronger than 68% nitric but we do not need them.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks for that butcher that was the info I was looking for.


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