# newbie here-could it be any funner?



## pwa (Feb 22, 2012)

My 1st crack at this was great fun.I did'nt have to run for the shower or tell my neighbor move is car.I didnt even break anything.If you have read my other posts you know that I am wanting to use nitric more or less as a stipper on silver plated engine parts.The problem is I am dissolving unplated steel and copper at the same time.The other thing is it would be difficult to estimate the wieght of just the silver.I went something like this:I placed some material in my heavy-duty coffee and added 200ml of water to cover half of material and then 180ml of 68-70% nitric to cover material.It reacted well even at 40 degrees outside with no heat.In 10 min steel was blackened,20 min silver digested and solution was dark green.I followed these steps 3 more times until I could not get any reaction even with heat.I figured the nitric had digessted every thing it could.I added about 10ml acid and let it boil a while.After cooling I diluted about 3 time original volume(forgot to filter 1st) and then filtered,dark emerald green.add split and flatened copper pipe(why does it need to be suspened?) and nothing.added another 15ml acid and it began dropping.I could not get the solution to go blue without alot of dilution.This is where my memory gets a little fuzzy but I figured if the solution was green and my copper didnt really seem to be doing much it must ne more acid.the solution was at about 1 gal and was in a large old time pickle jars.I added maybe 10ml more acid and the botom half of the jar TURNED BLUE AND THE TOP HALF WAS GREEN-THAT WAS COOL.and then the whole jug turn blue.It never really attacked the copper as though there was to much free nitric but the muriatic told me there was undroped silver so I just let it soak.I never got an absolute 0 reaction from the muriatic,but I was pretty weakly formed(ok then good enough for 1 st try)Filtered as learned on form and melted in a broken crucible,no flux. very clean looking and wieghed just under 4 oz.(like getting paid to have fun) can you seal containers during cementation?after you dropp the copper how do you filter the sediment and it look like it ate up more iron than copper?If theres excess nitric should you just let it burn out on copper or add sulfamic acid.I have learned theres all the answers a newbie needs here on the for if he can understand the questions and answers.If you actually made it all the way thru this feel free to point me in the right direction.I bet you pros get a kick out of stories like this and thanks for all the info on the forum.cant wait to play this weekend


----------



## philddreamer (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi Pwa!

I hope you've taken the necessary precautions when handling nitric acid and that you're aware that, no "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

Take care and be safe!

Phil


----------



## pwa (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi phil, actually I have taken you adice from the forum and treat the acid with alot of respect thanks


----------



## pwa (Feb 22, 2012)

oh yeah thats why I want to know about sealing containers during cementation? I know the fumes yuo can see will kill ya and the fumes you cant see will eat on just about anything.will a sealed container built pressure that has not been nuetralized?


----------



## butcher (Feb 22, 2012)

I would not seal the conatiner with copper in the solution, if you do have some free nitric the gas foemed as copper dissolves would need to escape.


----------



## pwa (Feb 23, 2012)

Thanks Butcher, can you tell me if the solution was so dark green because of its saturation of silver?


----------



## butcher (Feb 23, 2012)

The silver or other metals (such as palladium) (copper) does seem to give the nitric solution a green color, this can also be in part to free HNO3 in solution, after silver is cemented it will usually change to lighter blue color with copper nitrate.

If by chance you do have palladium it will cement out on copper after most of the silver is removed from solution.

Pure silver in nitric acid (silver nitrate solution) look's as clear as clean water, so silver itself gives no color in this solution.


----------



## MysticColby (Feb 24, 2012)

Iron (steel) and copper both take more nitric to dissolve the same weight than silver. I forget how much more, but it is more.
It's usual that there is excess nitric after dissolving silver. If it's too much, you can evaporate the solution (heat to steaming but not boiling) down to half it's volume, then dilute with distilled water back to original volume. Repeat until you're satisfied there isn't much nitric left. It's ok if there some a small amount of excess nitric when you add copper - it will just dissolve the copper (wasted copper). I believe that some excess nitric is needed in order to start cementing silver. I read that somewhere on here. not much, but some.


----------



## pwa (Feb 24, 2012)

ok its getting confusing,Iread on some posts that sulfuric acid will digest copper and become copper nitate which is green.Nitric acid will digest copper and become copper sulfate which is blue. Both will digest iron?,Sulfuric does not digest silver very well? Do I have this understood so far? There is no chance palladium is in my material. It must be very confusing for the nitric digesting silver,copper,and iron at the same time.Would there be an order in the digestion as one compound is more easily dissolved than another. Thanks Guys


----------



## nickvc (Feb 25, 2012)

You have the sulphates and nitrates mixed up but your getting there.
If you find the reactivity table that Lazersteve posted it helps to explain what happens and why.
If you have a silver nitrate solution you use copper to cement the silver out and to remove the copper you then use steel to cement the copper out, it's important to do both these processes as both copper and silver nitrate solutions are deadly to the environment.


----------



## pwa (Feb 25, 2012)

ok I get the reactivity chart, I was going by the color of the solutoin as to what the contents may be which I quess is not very accurate when I am digesting silver,copper and iron at the same time in diffrent propotions? though dilution and nitric addition it did get to a light blue before I dropped with copper.When I dropped the copper with iron at first the iron had a nice clean layer and the it started get darker and dirty looking.I have not filtered this yet but,it has been settling all week but I bet whats at the bottom will be pretty ugly.Thanks and is the forum I should be posting on for a newbie?


----------



## Harold_V (Feb 26, 2012)

pwa said:


> is the forum I should be posting on for a newbie?


You are free to post anywhere on the board you wish---but please try to be informed about the subject matter when posing questions. We take a very dim view of readers coming to the forum to ask simple questions that would be answered by them doing something as simple as reading Hoke's book. 

We're here to help those who help themselves, and do not take kindly to those with an entitlement attitude (not implying you have one!)

Harold


----------



## pwa (Feb 26, 2012)

hi harold, dont know if you recall but when I posted my recovery problem on a diffrent forum(cant remember which) you directed me hear.Thanks, this forum is great.While there seems to be no method and few options for what I wish to recover(silver plated engine parts with exsposed steel) I am having great fun and learning alot.The recovery may not pay for itself but you cant put a value on good entertainment.For me learning is in the doing.Have you seen my other posts? Any suggestions? I have hoke,lazersteves,gsp, Great refining info when I get that far, but right now Im trying to learn recovery?


----------



## butcher (Feb 26, 2012)

Pwa, 
You are missing something important, Hoke's book is not just good tool to learn from when just refining, the information in that book is very important to me when I recover, maybe somewhat more important, as it teaches how metals react in solutions, and also how to recognize the reactions, it also teaches, me how to remove one metal before trying to recover another metal, and testing of these for values in solutions, all of these I need when recovering.

I am having trouble understanding what your question is.


----------



## tlcarrig (Feb 27, 2012)

This thread is a good example of the reason everyone processing for recovery of PMs should keep a detailed journal. I have done a search for "journal" here and came up with 62 hits. There were only two of them that "might" have concerned individual journals. The rest concerned mining journals and technical journals. When I start processing later on this Summer, I will definately be keeping a journal. If I ever have a question about my processes, I will be able to post exactly what I have done and the results. I will be able to exactly repeat successful processes and avoid those that flop. Everyone go get some paper and pens and start recording what you are doing.


----------



## pwa (Feb 27, 2012)

Hi butcher.Well its like when you refine just silver the process seems very preditable.I am just wondering what my solution should look like since its digesting more than one metal at a time in diffrent amounts.I ran more material through the acid(350ml nitric 350 water) today on a hot plate until the acid seem to stop working I evaporated that down to about 650ml, filtered and diluted with 1600ml water.Solutions a dirty green, non- transparent,added copper strip for about 2 hrs til silver stopped falling. some copper strip was digested and the solution is even darker green. I plan to furhter dilute the solution and drop more silver( after checking with a drop fo muriatc to check for silver,If present this will form white cloud I believe?)I will try to study hoaks book and learn more about what going on!! actually I am writing things down as I go but I caught up in trying to think about what I was doing and didnt take the time to finish.I agree a journal is an great idea.


----------



## Geo (Feb 27, 2012)

you do understand that the metals that are lower on the reactivity scale will dissolve first, right? so if you are trying to dissolve mixed metals, the noble metals will be the last to dissolve.


----------



## pwa (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks, I do now.I thought the reactivity scale only referred to the order you can drop metals.


----------

