# What would cause my AR solution to only drop part of the gold powder?



## Mountain Man (Jan 29, 2020)

I have a very consistent problem that I could you help with. When using the A.R. process I can and do consistently get the gold to drop. However, not all of it. After I drop the gold I retest with stanous chloride and it still shows gold in the solution. I have 2 theories. 1. Did not use enough smb, however adding more does not drop any more gold. 2 The ph level is off not allowing the remainder of the gold to drop. 

Could there be other causes that I am unaware of and if so could you enlighten me on this. I have over 10 gallons of ar solution that is still showing significant gold in the solution. 

MtnMan.


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## Geo (Jan 29, 2020)

If you test the solution immediately after the drop, it could be a false positive. A false positive is more brown. The SO2 is reacting to the tin in the solution. After the drop, decant the solution to another container without disturbing the dropped powder. Place the solution on heat. Heat to near boiling and observe the solution. There should be small bubbles coming from the solution as if there was a reaction going on. This is the excess SO2 escaping the solution. When the bubbles stop being emitted, the SO2 is gone. Remove the solution from the heat. There is a good possibility that some gold powder has settled to the bottom. Allow the solution to cool completely. Now you can test the solution and get a true reading on the test without the excess SO2 messing with the results.


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## Mountain Man (Jan 29, 2020)

Thank you for your help. I am going to try what you said to do. One thing though. The test after the first drop is after I have poured the remaining solution into another clean glass jar the size is around 4 gals.. The stanous test shows deep black that turns to deep purple. Brown is usually not present. That is why I think there is gold still remaining in the solution. I have had brown before but it was clear it was as you said and not gold. This is the same color as the test prior to dropping the gold which is why I was wondering if my ph is wrong. I am going to try what you said though and see what results present itself. I will post my results. 

Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it.


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## Lino1406 (Jan 29, 2020)

On the other hand real cause to worry if precipitated gold was more then what is in


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## Geo (Jan 29, 2020)

Take 1000ml and place it in a 2000ml beaker. Place the beaker in a catch basin. Start adding aluminum foil in small amounts and stir. Only add a small amount at a time or the solution will boil over. Keep adding the aluminum foil and stirring until the solution is very black and the beaker is hot to the touch. Let the solution cool and decant the solution to another container being careful not to decant any solids remaining. Take this sample and dissolve it in HCl and bleach. Test this solution. Sometimes, a solution does not like giving up the excess nitric acid that stops the precipitation and you have to cement the metal and start over.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2020)

Geo said:


> Take 1000ml and place it in a 2000ml beaker. Place the beaker in a catch basin. Start adding aluminum foil in small amounts and stir. Only add a small amount at a time or the solution will boil over. Keep adding the aluminum foil and stirring until the solution is very black and the beaker is hot to the touch. Let the solution cool and decant the solution to another container being careful not to decant any solids remaining. Take this sample and dissolve it in HCl and bleach. Test this solution. Sometimes, a solution does not like giving up the excess nitric acid that stops the precipitation and you have to cement the metal and start over.



I don't think you should do this with a solution containing mixed metals in the first instance. All you are achieving is dropping all the metals below Al out and then having to dissolve them again. Assuming your tests for gold are correct you are far better firstly trying a small solution and using a different precipitant first. Ferrous Sulphate works great for dirty solutions containing multiple metals. You can also use Ascorbic acid. Worst case you can use the copper bar/copper powder approach. 

Remember this is the product of ore- it's got a boatload of metals and whilst the theory of HCl washing out all the base metals is good it doesn't need to be done as the first step.

Take a small sample (500ml) and work on getting THAT to be free of gold rather than using a sledgehammer to crack a nut because you're just doing all the work again unneccessarily.

Finally if you're worried about your pH then test it (your small sample as above.) If your SMB sits on the bottom and does nothing then try adding a small amount of HCl and see what happens. A pH tester is cheap and a great tool to invest in.


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## Geo (Jan 30, 2020)

What I suggested is just for a test and not for the entire amount. I have a suspicion that there may be PGM's present and may be giving the dark colored stannous test. Dropping all metal from a small sample and then redissolving an even smaller amount of the cemented metal without nitric acid and then diluting with HCl should give a more accurate visual with stannous chloride of what metals he is dealing with. If it were mine, I would simply cement everything onto solid copper and work with what ever comes out. But it's not me and not mine. If someone is to learn, they should learn with what they have first.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2020)

Geo said:


> What I suggested is just for a test and not for the entire amount. I have a suspicion that there may be PGM's present and may be giving the dark colored stannous test. Dropping all metal from a small sample and then redissolving an even smaller amount of the cemented metal without nitric acid and then diluting with HCl should give a more accurate visual with stannous chloride of what metals he is dealing with. If it were mine, I would simply cement everything onto solid copper and work with what ever comes out. But it's not me and not mine. If someone is to learn, they should learn with what they have first.



Sure it's true that we've got differing opinions. 

There's always more than one way to skin a cat as they say. You could always drop the gold and then test for PGMs because the tests would also be cleaner. There's a whole heap of folk who show "positive stannous results" for PGMs who have years later to show any metal recovered so I'm more than a little dubious as to those results because all kinds of things can affect them. 

I've always viewed deep black to deep purple to be gold not PGMs. It just means it's good and strong for gold. The next stage is gold plating out on the stannous and that's a gorgeous sight.


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## goldenchild (Jan 30, 2020)

+1 on the copper. It's the surefire way to drop only the "good" metals. It will also simultaneously remove excess nitric. Something like Al will drop everything and make a hell of a mess later on. Cu chloride is easy to filter leaving behind the PMs. No need to overthink this one.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 3, 2020)

Thank you all for your advice. I value all your opinions as I am not even close to being an expert. I have over 20 gals of ar solution all showing gold remaining. I am going to try both methods for the purpose of not only recovering all the gold but to improve my level of understanding and knowledge. 
I will post my results.
Again Thank You Both.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 3, 2020)

I have one more question. What PH tester do you recommend? I know that may sound like a silly question but I may have gotten the wrong one.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 3, 2020)

I use wide range pH test paper/strips. It's cheap and easy, no calibration or maintenance needed.

Dave


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## galenrog (Feb 3, 2020)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I use wide range pH test paper/strips. It's cheap and easy, no calibration or maintenance needed.
> 
> Dave



And that, Dave, is one more reason you are indeed, The Frugal Refiner.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 3, 2020)

Thank You Dave. 

I have another question. Before I ask it though I want to say that the material I recovered this gold from is a 3 lb. batch of high grade ceramic cpus. I may be wrong but I have always had a much cleaner recovery processing ceramics than fingers or other items. Having said that, the powder tends to be much cleaner and a medium to light brown in color and has been assayed at 22 to 23 karat so the purity is high. Now for my question. If I were to evaporate the solution down the gold should still be in the remaining solution still. Is that correct? And if so, could I not then wash it to remove the excess A.R. solution and then recover the gold or is there existing problems that I am not aware of doing it that way?


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 3, 2020)

If you evaporate it down, you'll still have a gold salt. When you try to "wash it to remove the excess A.R. solution", the gold salt will go back into solution.

Dave


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## Mountain Man (Feb 4, 2020)

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks to all of you for sharing your experience and wisdom.


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## Palladium (Feb 4, 2020)

Ar solution needs an excess of hcl for the smb to work correctly.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 7, 2020)

Hello, I'm back. 

Okay I tried heating one 1000 ml beaker and nothing dropped from the solution except smb in crystallized form. I tested the solution and it positively shows gold. Black/purple in test. I also checked the ph of all the solution containers I have that show gold. The ph test shows +1 constantly in all containers. To me that means I am very consistent in my efforts to eliminate the nitric acid. 

That being said I still have not been able to drop anymore of the gold. I am leaning towards introducing the copper strips unless there is a better way from here. I am open to all suggestions. 

Thank you.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 7, 2020)

I have a couple of other unrelated questions. Does anyone know how to recover the gold from gold pyrite and from gold ore?


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 7, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> The ph test shows +1 constantly in all containers. To me that means I am very consistent in my efforts to eliminate the nitric acid.


I'm not sure I understand that correlation. pH of 1 simply means the solution is fairly acidic. You could get that result from hydrochloric, nitric, sulfuric acids etc.



> That being said I still have not been able to drop anymore of the gold. I am leaning towards introducing the copper strips unless there is a better way from here. I am open to all suggestions.


Palladium brought up an excellent point. AR needs some free HCl for the SMB to react and create the SO2 needed to reduce the gold. I would try adding some HCl to a sample of your solution, and then, if necessary, some fresh SMB.

Dave


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## Shark (Feb 7, 2020)

When I first started heating solutions pretty hot, I started having problems with drops as well. Adding some hydrochloric acid seemed to be the fix 99.9% of the time. Adding nitric very seldom helped with completing a drop, the hydrochloric almost always worked.


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## Palladium (Feb 7, 2020)

I'm assuming by +1 he means 8 on the ph scale?


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## Palladium (Feb 7, 2020)

Shark said:


> When I first started heating solutions pretty hot, I started having problems with drops as well. Adding some hydrochloric acid seemed to be the fix 99.9% of the time. Adding nitric very seldom helped with completing a drop, the hydrochloric almost always worked.



Sorry i haven't called you back sir. I have been as busy as a long tail cat in a rocking chair convention! I will try and touch base Sunday.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 8, 2020)

Adding hcl makes perfect sense. I typically have tried to use acid volumes that are completely spent at the end of the process. Especially the nitric. That way I don't have to use much urea to neutralize the acid. I have been walking a fine line on having enough to dissolve all the gold or spending more time and money trying to neutralize excess nitric. In several instances I have had to reintroduce product to a new batch of AR because I did not use enough hcl or nitric. I thought I was dealing with excess nitric but now I think is was the other way around and I over neutralized the hcl along with the nitric. Does my theory hold water?


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## Mountain Man (Feb 8, 2020)

Palladium, 

I purchased wide range test strips so they go from 1 to 14. So 1 being at the low end of the scale. They do not show a minus number at all. Only 1 to 14. 

Mtnman


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## anachronism (Feb 8, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Palladium,
> 
> I purchased wide range test strips so they go from 1 to 14. So 1 being at the low end of the scale. They do not show a minus number at all. Only 1 to 14.
> 
> Mtnman



Therefore you might want to do a bit of homework on the pH scale and acidity/alkalinity. It's not hard to pick up but you do need to understand properly what you're looking at. 8) 

Jon


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## kurtak (Feb 8, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> I am leaning towards introducing the copper strips unless there is a better way from here.



As was originally suggested by Geo & agreed to by goldenchild this is what you should have done in the FIRST place :!: 

doing so "in the first place" you would already have your gold back from the solution & you would have it ALL back :!:

For the life of me I just don't understand why people think copper is considered "the last resort" in situations like this

Copper is your friend !!! 

Hoke's, Harold, 4metals, GSP, etc. etc. etc. (ALL the pros) talk about sending solutions to the "stock pot" to cement out any "traces" of gold left (&/or PGMs that may be present) after doing chemical drop

Harold talked OFTEN about how he retired & retired well off - from the "traces" of gold (& other PMs) he recovered over his years of refining by sending his solutions to the stock pot (for cementing with copper) after dropping the gold from his solutions with chemical precipitants - just as Hoke's, 4metals & GSP have ALL talked about - "traces" - recovered by cementing from the stock pot

We are talking about "traces" that show little or NO gold with a stannous test

What does that tell you ??? --- it tells you that coper "is your friend" !!!

It does not matter if you are going after traces of gold or a solution that is loaded with gold 

If you are having trouble getting your gold back - copper is your friend - it will get your gold back & it will get it ALL back

If chemicals are not getting your gold back - STOP - adding chemicals --- all you are doing is making a chemical soup that can &/or will cause more problems that can or will interfere with dropping your gold

Problems such as raising the Ph - or precipitating chems (instead of gold) from a warm/hot solution when the solution cools - or not dissolving the chems you are adding (to a cool solution) because you have over saturated the solution with chems 

If you have already added so much other chems that raised the Ph of the solution - the ONLY other chem you should add is HCl - then add copper - if you get a "strong" reaction (foaming) wait for the reaction to "stop" - test the solution - if it still test positive - add agitation (air bubbler or stirring)

If free nitric (or other oxidizer) is the problem - copper will use up the nitric (oxidizer) --- copper is your friend

I stopped using chemicals years ago (urea, sulfamic) to denox my AR --- I use ONLY copper

copper gets rid of ALL the free nitric & it gives you back ALL of your gold

You have 2 opptions with using copper to denox your AR &/or recover your gold

(1) copper powder works best for this one & will give you back gold at 995 to 999 (after normal washing of the gold powder) --- in this method put your beaker of AR on the hot plate - add "a bit" of copper powder & stir - the copper will precipitate gold - let the gold settle - if the settled gold is reacting with the AR let the AR dissolve the gold - make additions of copper powder - when the settled gold powder no longer reacts with the AR your free nitric (oxidizer) is used up - at that point you can finish the gold precipitation with SMB (or other chem precipitant) --- with this process (denoxing) you still want to send the solution to the stock pot after the chem precipitation to recover any traces the chem did not drop

(2) Or just flat out cement ALL the gold out with a solid piece of copper (this is basically the same idea as the stock pot to recover traces of gold) but applies in a situation like this one where in there are more then traces of gold but you are having trouble to get your gold with chems - it will denox the solution (if that is the problem) and give you back ALL your gold - but - your gold will have "some" copper contamination - your gold could be as low as 97 - 98 % - or as high as 995

Bottom line - copper is your friend if you are going to play in the refining game - learn when, how & where to use it

Whether refining (option #1) or for recovery (option #2) copper is your friend - especially when dealing with gold from ewaste

As I said in the begaining of this post - "I can't figure out for the life of me" - why we are going around & around with try this & try that - when copper was suggested early in this thread - it was the right answer then - & it remains the answer now

if your Ph is to high (from adding all the other chems) lower it with HCl & cement it with copper

Kurt


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## Mountain Man (Feb 11, 2020)

Kurt, 
Thank you for your help. I have tried everything except the copper. My ar solution in all my stock pots still show significant amount of gold. I have suspected I was not recovering all my pm's since I started this learning process 3 years ago and have been plagued by this thru out the entire 3 years. I am going to follow your instructions and change my entire mindset about how to recover the pm's and use copper from here on. Fortunately, I have kept all of my solutions from every batch I have done. I actually have close to 100 gallons of ar solution in plastic 50 and 30 gallon drums. The batches I am working on right now all still show high levels of gold in them. All are from ceramic cpu's and so the base metals content should be low making the refining much simpler. 

One question. The ones I am working with now are in bottles that are 4 gal jars. Is there any emphasis on how big or how thick the copper strip should be? Also, I got on line to purchase copper powder. I see there is some choices. 1 being copper powder, 2. Copper Sulfate, 3. copper carbonate and 4. atomized copper powder. Which do you recommend and how much is used on a per batch average so I know how much to purchase and which kind? 
Thank You again. It may not look like I know much and that would be correct however, I am a fast learner. 
Kirk


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## Shark (Feb 11, 2020)

With that volume, absolutely cement it. 

Advice is often given based on a single run or smaller amount of solution. At 100 plus gallons your working on a stockpot if your trying to recover missed gold. I am still curious as to why your not getting it to drop cleanly and still giving you a positive test result. I think finding and fixing that problem will move you ahead in whatever process your using. 

They way I do my AR runs is basic...get everything in solution, remove nitric(what ever works best for you), drop the gold (which ever precipitant that works best for you) , get my gold powders from the solution. There should be no positive stannous test by now. At this point I move the solution to the side and let it settle for several days. Decant the solution and move it to my stock pot where copper will be introduced to remove any remaining values. I don't recall ever moving my AR from my second settling to my stockpot with a positive test for gold. I have had positive tests for PGM's. They are saved for another time.

All that is just a long way of trying to find why and/or where your gold is getting hung up. Again, it now sounds like copper is your best bet to recover it. Knowing why it is getting hung up is a cure for the same problem in the future.

Let us know how it works out and what you find. We are all still learning as well and this is a puzzle I would like to hear more about.


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## kurtak (Feb 11, 2020)

Don't have a lot of time to post right now - but - the heavier/thicker the better - I prefer bus bars - but other heavy/thick copper will work - some people use copper pipe but you need to "split" it (long wise) spread it & flatten it so PMs don't get stuck in the center of the pipe 

Kurt


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## Mountain Man (Feb 11, 2020)

The reason I have so much is because I have been dealing with this issue since I started learning how to do this. I have always had a problem with my solution still testing positive after my initial drop. Recognizing that there is still a strong possibility the solution contains pm's I have simply stored it and moved to the next batch. The batches I am working with now still show heavy gold in the solutions in the 4 batches I have done in the last month. I did not want to simply dispose of the others because they test positive for gold as well. I know I have a problem somewhere in my process that is leaving gold in the solutions and I am now at the point that I have to resolve this so I can dispose of the solutions I have built up without loosing what I believe is a lot of gold. 

I am determined to learn so I can become an expert also. I will do what ever you suggest to resolve this black hole that exists in my process. 

I am very appreciative of all who have taken their time to try and help me resolve this issue. I have been doing it long enough now to realize there is a huge flaw in my recovery technique. 

Thank You for your patience and help. 
Kirk


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## anachronism (Feb 11, 2020)

Can you show us a picture of your positive tests please?


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## Mountain Man (Feb 11, 2020)

Okay, I am convinced on the copper and I remembered last year I tried using the copper technique. I thought it did not do anything, but, I went and dug out the copper strips I used to try it with. One side was covered in green like a battery post. I cleaned one side off and to my surprise under all the green was gold cemented to it At least it looks like it is pure yellow gold. It is only on the one side. The other side had no gold on it. 

Now my question is how do I get the cemented gold off the copper plate?


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## anachronism (Feb 11, 2020)

Could you please let us see some pics of the tests for gold? 

Let's be 100% sure here that we're all on the same page- it's the best way we can help.


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## Shark (Feb 11, 2020)

Pictures of your stannous tests could help a lot. As for cleaning the copper bars, in my small scale environment I use a toothbrush. I just hold the copper under water or the solution I am working on and brush it loose to settle out. I usually start working mine down when I get around 3 to 4 gallons. I don't have room to keep that much waste on hand so I use 5 gallon buckets.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 11, 2020)

After reading your comments about how you can brush it off the copper with a toothbrush leaves me thinking something else is on this copper metal I used. On one side is copper that looks like copper after it has been sitting in acid. Kind of darker colored with some green dry powder from the acid left over on it. The other side though is cleaner and I can see the copper but mostly what I see is what appears to be a layer of yellow metal adhered to the copper and it covers the majority of that side of the copper strip. I will not come off with a toothbrush at all. It is covering 75 to 80 percent of that side of the copper. It looks like it was melted on to it. I thought that is what was meant by cemented to it. It is a layer so thick that you can't see the copper thru it. The only copper I see on this side is where there is not any gold. I will try and get some pics for you all to see. Of it and my stannous tests also.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 11, 2020)

Yes, I will show you pictures of my tests and of the copper strip with what appears to be gold on it. I am working on that right now.


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## anachronism (Feb 11, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Yes, I will show you pictures of my tests and of the copper strip with what appears to be gold on it. I am working on that right now.



Thanks my friend we look forwards to seeing them.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

How do I upload the pictures I have for you to view to this site?


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## Geo (Feb 12, 2020)

Click "post Reply". Under this text box will be two tabs labeled "options" and "attachments". Open "attachments". Click the "add files" button. Select the photo. It will give you the option to place the photo in a particular place in the post or just click "submit".


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## kurtak (Feb 12, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Okay, I am convinced on the copper and I remembered last year I tried using the copper technique. I thought it did not do anything, but, I went and dug out the copper strips I used to try it with. One side was covered in green like a battery post. I cleaned one side off and to my surprise under all the green was gold cemented to it At least it looks like it is pure yellow gold. It is only on the one side. The other side had no gold on it.
> 
> Now my question is how do I get the cemented gold off the copper plate?



If you just put the copper in but didn't provide agitation it is possible/likely that gold "plated" to the copper (not cemented to it)

When cementing PMs "out" of a solution you want/need to provide "agitation"

To learn more - go to the Library - scroll down to the bottom of the page - there will be a thread there titled - "Fuzz Button Interconnects - need some advice" --- it is the 8th thread up from the bottom of the page

Read it - it will give you details on cementing PMs from solution

Looking forward to seeing pics of both you stannous test & the copper - they will certainly be helpful

Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 12, 2020)

Concerning the problem you are having with not dropping all your gold in the first place 

Question - for your AR are you using HCl & nitric acid --- or HCl & some other nitrate such as sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate ?

Kurt


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)




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## anachronism (Feb 12, 2020)

Do you have a Stannous test we can see?


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)




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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

Okay, I just learned how to post pics, that to your help. The first is the copper cementing I did a year ago. The gold color is actual gold and I have no idea how it ended up with gold on the copper like that, but I do think it is actually gold. I am considering doing a reverse electrolysis to strip it off unless there is a better way. 

The second and third pics are of the s,c, test of my solution. That is solid black and purple.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

The copper technique I have started on some of the bottles and one is doing exactly as you said it would. The other has dropped the gold also and that s.c. test has produced significant amounts of brown. I will get a pic of that and the copper sheet used in that bottle. It has now produced some very strange colors that appear to be something adhering to that copper sheet. If I am not mistaken brown is palladium? Is that correct? If so it is loaded with it or what ever it actually is. I have no idea what to do to recover it. 

Anyway, that is the update. I await your thoughts.


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## Geo (Feb 12, 2020)

Just keep the copper in the solution. It will do the work. Replace the copper if it dissolves. Do not let the copper lay flat on the bottom. It's better if it is suspended in the solution. Test with a fresh piece of copper every couple of days for about an hour at a time. Do this until nothing cements from the solution on the fresh copper.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)




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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

The pictures of the large piece of copper are interesting to me simply because I am so unfamiliar with this technique so I have no idea what they mean. The copper plate was new and uniformly clean and shiny throughout the entire surface. This batch of solution did produce some gold powder that I was able to remove with a toothbrush. The powder is black not brown. I cleaned the powder off last night with a toothbrush and reintroduced the plate back into the solution. Last night it was clean and looked the same everywhere on the plate. This a.m. it looked like this and a small amount of powder was on the plate. I brushed it off into a glass beaker and what you see now is the way it was after the 2nd brushing. The solution now tests a solid brown. There is a significant amount of solid black that you can see at the solution line that is adhered to the plate and will not come off with a toothbrush. The lower half of the plate displays multiple color variations that have adhered to the plate as well. If I am correct I think brown in the S.C. test means presence of palladium. Is that correct? I have no idea how to recover palladium.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

The pics I posted last night of the S.C. test showing purple has produced brown gold powder and still shows significant gold presence in the s.c. test so it is still undergoing the copper treatment. What is interesting is the solution is very clear and has only a slight yellow tint to it, yet the s.c. test shows significant levels of gold present so it is still undergoing more copper treatment. 

The copper pictures that show what I am confident is gold that has adhered itself to the copper but not in a powder form but in actual gold that looks as though it has been gold plated by the gold. This was from my first attempt over a year ago and when I pulled these copper strips off the self all looked the same except this one that is showing the gold on it. I have no idea how or why that took place.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

Kurt, 

I am sorry that I missed your question about the hcl and nitric or sodium nitrate. The answer is sodium nitrate is what I have always used. I must admit that I have questioned that choice since the beginning of my learning how to do this 4 plus years ago.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 12, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> The solution now tests a solid brown. [snip] If I am correct I think brown in the S.C. test means presence of palladium. Is that correct? I have no idea how to recover palladium.



Usually, a brown test with stannous chloride indicates copper, and is often referred to as a "false positive". Palladium will cement on copper just as gold, platinum, and mercury will do.

Dave


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

To everyone, 

If any of you have asked a question of me and I have not responded please don't take offense. I have also been very busy and have been in and out for a few days dealing with family issues including taking my wife to the airport to fly to portland. She has to have a double mastectomy and has requested my wife, her younger sister, to be present for the surgery and the recovery. That along with other issues from family members and life in general. I live in the mountains of N. Idaho and have had to plow the snow everyday for the last 3 weeks with no break. Our lane is over a mile long and the average snow per day has been in the 1 to 3 feet per day. I am not whining about it because I believe I am in the best of the west where I live. There are countless gold mines just up behind my house and some of my children have acquired a passion for gold for some reason. Who'd of known. lol. Any, I am sorry if I have not responded to any of you and mean no offense. I appreciate all of you and I will try in the next day or so to address all of your comments and I thank you for all of your help and support. I too, for some reason have acquired a real appetite for the sweet yellow metal and it's associated precious metal cousins. 

Thank You all. Very Much.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 12, 2020)

Dave, 

I did not know that about the brown s.c. test. Thank you. That seems to be the only color in there. Is it ready then to transfer to a stock pot for storage or a full disposing of it?

Kirk


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## Geo (Feb 12, 2020)

If the black on that copper came from your solution, that is what you are looking for. Precious metals cements from solution as a black powder.


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## kurtak (Feb 13, 2020)

Kirk

Are you providing agitation to your solution (like an air bubbler) or just putting the copper in ?

Did you read the thread I suggested in the Library section - if not - read it

You "may" be better off using potassium nitrate instead of sodium nitrate

Kurt


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## Mountain Man (Feb 13, 2020)

Hey Kurt, 

I have wondered about that. Did I mention to you that I have an uncle that is buried in John Day. That is a nice area. I am in N. Id. Saint Maries. 50 miles south of CDA. Anyway, What about going to nitric acid? Would that be the best choice? Also, the copper worked on 2 of the bottles of solution and partially on the small bottle that was clear yellow. I got some of the gold out of it but it is still testing purple on the s.c. test. significant amounts still. Not sure what to do with that so I added some hcl to see if that would do anything. Nothing happening as of yet. 

Kirk.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 13, 2020)

Sorry Kurt. 

No agitation at all. Just submerged in the solution. I am supposing I need to get an air pump, like an aquarium pump. Would that work?


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## Mountain Man (Feb 13, 2020)

What is the difference between sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate and how do they compare to using nitric acid assuming nitric is the best? Or is it not the best?


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## Shark (Feb 13, 2020)

Real nitric avoids many of the quirks of using a nitrate salt. Once you try it, it is hard to go back. Knowing the peculiarities of each helps a lot when using them. Seems in my case using sodium or potassium nitrate causes more colloidal gold to form, especially potassium nitrate. In the case of a friend of mine, he has more problems with sodium nitrate. With care it can be avoided, but it changes how you process some. I think it is good to know how to use each of them, the more we know the fewer problems we run into. And while I prefer to let Kurt explain it better, I use aquarium pumps. the more solution that comes into contact with the copper, the sooner it is done. Another way of saying it, the more solution that contacts the copper the more you recover.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 14, 2020)

Kurt, 

You were right, copper has done the job. All of my solution bottles show no gold at all. This is the first time that has actually happened. I have drums of solution I got frustrated with not getting all the gold from the solution. I said before I had a 55 and a 35 gal drums but I actually have 2 55's and a 35 for a total of 145 gallons of solution that I know have gold in them. Some are 3 years old or more. I am curious. Do you think there is any chance the gold will have settled to the bottom by now? I ask because it is quite a cocktail of solution and smb and who knows what may have taken place. Just wondering. 

Thanks for all the help from everyone. I am going to re-read all of your posts and make sure I have not missed anyone's comments. They are all appreciated and I don't want anyone to feel ignored or that I didn't appreciate your input and sharing your vast knowledge of how to become an expert at this. Final question. Is nitric worth the cost and potential danger to use in my AR solution instead of a substitute like sodium nitrate?

I have nitric already but have only used it in the purifying stage, however if it reduces potential problems that exist with the substitutes then I would lean more to using the actual nitric instead regardless of the cost. 

Thanks again.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 14, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Final question. Is nitric worth the cost and potential danger to use in my AR solution instead of a substitute like sodium nitrate?
> 
> I have nitric already but have only used it in the purifying stage, however if it reduces potential problems that exist with the substitutes then I would lean more to using the actual nitric instead regardless of the cost.



It depends on what you have to pay for nitric. If you can get it at a decent price, it's definitely the way to go. If you have to pay $50 to $70 per liter, the workarounds are worth consideration.

Dave


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## Shark (Feb 14, 2020)

I use both depending on the situation. I started out with only sodium nitrate, then found some potassium nitrate. From there I learned to make my own nitric, then managed to get hold of some real nitric. I am reasonably comfortable with either of them in the majority of situations, but prefer certain ones for specific materials at times. Since you have the chemicals, try a few small scale runs and see if you find one easier than the other. I have produced some very nice gold, even using "poorman's AR". 

This was made from gold filled materials using poor mans nitric and poor mans AR. Xrf read it at .9999 on both sides, twice.


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## kurtak (Feb 15, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Kurt,
> 
> You were right, copper has done the job. All of my solution bottles show no gold at all. This is the first time that has actually happened. I have drums of solution I got frustrated with not getting all the gold from the solution. I said before I had a 55 and a 35 gal drums but I actually have 2 55's and a 35 for a total of 145 gallons of solution that I know have gold in them. Some are 3 years old or more. I am curious. Do you think there is any chance the gold will have settled to the bottom by now? I ask because it is quite a cocktail of solution and smb and who knows what may have taken place. Just wondering.



Yes - it is "possible" that "some" more (but not all) gold has precipitated out over time (considering the chemical "soups" you have made) &/or "ultra" fine gold that has settled out over time

Concerning nitric acid - yes it is always "preferred" over using nitrate salts 

However - cost of the nitric plays into what to use 

it takes "about" 4 times more nitric acid to dissolve base metals then it takes to dissolve gold or silver

Example; - one gallon of 67% - 70% nitric will dissolve "about" 8 pounds of silver/gold but one gallon of nitric will only dissolve "about 2 pounds of base metals

so if you are processing say ceramic CPUs with AR - besides dissolving the gold you are dissolving the base metals (copper lids, kovar lids & kovar pins) the base metals being the greater amount of metals - therefore needing more nitric to dissolve those base metals

therefore if you are having to pay a high price - like $50 - $70 or more per liter for nitric - the cost of the nitric may well be more then the value of the gold you recover

On the other hand if you can find a source of nitric that only cost $2.50 - $12/$15 per gallon it is well worth using real nitric 

in other words - IF - you are paying a high price for your nitric (acid) save it for you final refining - you can still use nitrate "salts" for the "recovery" process where you need to dissolve a lot of base metal

That said - concerning using nitrate salts - you want to use clean/pure forms of the salts

Question - for your sodium nitrate --- are you using a sodium nitrate fertilizer - like the Hi-Yield nitrate of soda fertilizer

If so I would suggest changing from using that to using "Spectracide" (brand name) stump "remover" (stump remover not to be confused with stump "out") 

stump "out" is SMB --- stump "remover" is potassium nitrate

Hi-Yield nitrate of soda is only 16% nitrate & 26% sodium (the sodium nitrate) so 42% of the active salt that makes your Poor mans" AR --- the other 58% of the fertilizer is buffers &/or fillers - the buffers/fillers are put in the fertilizer so that the sodium nitrate brakes down "over time" to feed plants "over time" - its being dissolved by water - not (HCl) acid - so the buffers allow time delay feeding of the plants other wise the fertilizer would burn the plants

In other words - more of a chemical "soup" in your poor mans AR - & as I said before - the more of a soup you make - the greater "potential" with problems you "may" have dropping your gold

Spectracide stump remover is a clean/pure form of potassium nitrate - no buffers/fillers - so a more clean/pure source of nitrate salt then a fertilizer with crap (buffers/fillers) other then the nitrate salt wanted to make your poor mans AR

Though I have never used poor mans AR (because I have always had "cheap" nitric acid) logic tells me if I was going to use a nitrate salt I would want a clean pure form of the salt & not the salt plus other crap 

Therefore IF I was going to use a nitrate salt to make poor mans AR I would most certainly use the potassium nitrate stump remover & not the sodium nitrate "fertilizer"

And - for what is worth - I do use potassium nitrate as a flux ingredient when melting "dirty" gold powders - but that's another story for another day

Kurt


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## Mountain Man (Feb 15, 2020)

Kurt, 

Thank You again for sharing your hard earned knowledge and wisdom. I completely understand the what and why of the products you are using and the benefits. I will make the switch and adjustments. Is the use of the sodium nitrate the reason why I get so much salt in my batches?  I have been so frustrated with the salts for a long time. I have not understood why I have had salts until now. I do not have a reasonable priced source for nitric but I do keep it on hand. I am going to go to try and find a cheaper source of the nitric and then switch to the potassium nitrate and give that a go also. 

I started a batch last night and it is now ready for dropping the gold. I bought copper powder and do have it on hand. It is the straight copper powder and I am hoping that was the right one to purchase. I divided the batch into 2 separate jars so I can try the copper powder on one and copper plate again on the other. I am really happy with the amount of gold powder I recovered using the copper. I am going to rely on it from here on. 

I will let you know how it turns out on this batch. It is 4 pounds of ceramic cpu's. I am going to reread your comments on how to with the copper powder. I want to say thank you again for taking your time and helping me understand and isolate my errors in the process. 

You have been a great help and I truly do appreciated your help. 

Kirk


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## kurtak (Feb 16, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Kurt,
> 
> Is the use of the sodium nitrate the reason why I get so much salt in my batches?



Kirk

To clarify my last post - I really can not speak to using nitrate salts for making "poor mans AR" as I have always had actual nitric acid to use when refining

So what I was saying is that - IF (big if) you are using a product like the Hi-Yield (brand) nitrate of soda fertilizer then you are using a very low grade of sodium nitrate because it is only 16% nitrate plus 26% sodium which = only 42% sodium nitrate - the rest of the (Hi-Yield brand fertilizer) is 58% buffers &/or fillers (so 58% "other" crap)

its that 58% other crap I am concerned about that is ether not going to dissolve thereby leaving you with some kind of crap in the form of solids that then need to be filtered out - or - if it dissolves its more crap in you solution that "may" cause a problem dropping your gold

Therefore (if you are using the Hi-Yield fertilizer) I was suggesting using a more pure form of nitrate salt - such as the Stump "Remover" which is a pure 99% potassium nitrate

You can also get sodium nitrate in a pure 99% grade of sodium nitrate (instead of the Hi-Yield fertilizer)

If you do a search for - "where to buy sodium nitrate" you will find that DUDA ENERGY sells it for about $24 for a 5 pound bag & it is 99% pure sodium nitrate - be sure you get the nitrate & not the nitrite

Now then - what I don't know - is that even with higher grade nitrate salts (sodium or potassium) is if the sodium &/or potassium in these nitrate salts ether (1) do not dissolve thereby leaving solids that need to be filtered out - or (2) if they dissolve & then precipitate back out as the salts of sodium or potassium - or (3) if they dissolve & stay in solution

What I do know is that the nitrate in the sodium &/or potassium nitrate will serve the same purpose as nitric acid for dissolving metals as a "poor mans" method for refining --- which is why its called poor mans AR instead of just AR (where nitric acid is used instead of nitrate salts) because nitrate salts are easier to get then nitric acid AND most people have to pay a VERY high price for nitric acid - but can get nitrate salt "cheap"

So the bottom line is that others (like Shark, Geo, butcher, etc., etc.) will have to answer your question as to a problem of salts (sodium/potassium) that form (or not) when using the salts to make poor mans AR

Years ago I did try an experiment using the Hi-Yield fertilizer & I did get A LOT salt that ether did not dissolved &/or that precipitated --- I "assumed" it was because of the 58% crap in the Hi-Yield fertilizer so never tried using a nitrate salt again because I have always had cheap nitric acid

Glad to hear the copper is getting your gold back from all you old solutions :G :mrgreen: 

Kurt


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## Shark (Feb 16, 2020)

I wish I could explain it better, I just do not have the ability to do so. 

When using nitrate salts to make AR if you add to much you will get left over salts. The way I think of it is to make AR you use a specific amount of Hydrochloric acid then add a set % amount of nitric acid. Example to make a 4:1 AR you would use 40ml of HCl and 10ml of nitric acid. When using poormans AR you need to figure out how much of your nitrate salt is the equivalent of 10ml of nitric acid. Sodium nitrate will give a lower yield of nitric acid than potassium nitrate in a given weight. That is why many prefer potassium nitrate over sodium nitrate as well. I prefer to add the hydrochloric and only use small amounts of nitric or nitrate salt, the same as using nitric acid rather than a set ratio. If you excessively add either salt it will settle and can be filtered or is soluble in water especially hot water. For a given amount of hydrochloric if you add the excess nitrate salts the excess is wasted in that only so much nitric can be produced by the given hydrochloric. It can be increased to a small extent with the addition of small quantities of sulfuric acid which aids in the conversion of the salt to nitric acid. Between the process of filtering your auric chloride and the repeated wash cycles for the gold powders the left overs must be fairly thoroughly removed (by my thinking) as both sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate are capable of producing some very nice gold. If you add sulfuric acid you run the risk of some of the left over salts producing sulfate salts which often are not water soluble but can be filtered out fairly easy, so long as you don't produce large amounts. They can easily stop filters up and cause nightmares when filtering. Another point of using the nitrate salts is they almost always require heat. They will not work well with out it. I am not sure of the exact range of heat but a coffee maker hot plate will work for a coffee pot, but it is still a bit slow. If they were 20 or 25 degrees hotter they would work very well. Something to keep in mind if processing larger batch's.

I am not sure of how potassium nitrate is produced so that would be a point for further research. Sodium nitrate is a mine product and, as with Hi-yield fertilizer and other brands, the amount of trash can vary quiet a lot. Some of the reasons I keep going to Hi-Yield is because it is a known source, easy availability and has a proven track record in my notes, for my methods. It will have beads of dirt because it is a fertilizer, and not produced for quality. I tried a generic brand of sodium nitrate fertilizer and it was so dirty I gave up on it for refining, but it worked great on my shrubs. Duda Diesel, does sell a high quality product that I have not tried (I have used their nitric acid) and the advantage would be they sell it in large quantities. Hi-Yield comes in 4lb bags. I have dealt with Duda Diesel before and never had a problem.

I really hope that makes some sense.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 16, 2020)

Kurt and Shark, 

Thank you both very much. Both of your comments make perfect sense. You both have explained clearly what my next questions about the salts I keep having to deal with would have been. 

I first want to say that I am never going to use anything but copper to recover my gold. No more precipitants for me. 

My next question was about the cause of the salts and how to get rid of them when they occur. The best solution all though it is more costly is the pure nitric and I do have it on hand. When I calculate the time required to remove the salts it becomes a trade off, unless like you said I go to a high grade product. I am becoming more convinced that I will be farther ahead to simply stick to nitric and avoid all the other problems associated with the nitrate family. 

When I consider the time lost in removing the salts to get to my gold it becomes a lost cause. Time is money and the more of it I can save produces more gold on a faster pace. 

I can't thank you both enough for you willingness to share your wealth of knowledge and your time. Your expertise in this has opened my eyes and the door to actually move towards not only making some money but also becoming more knowledgeable in the venture I have been working at for a while now. It is your willingness to share your knowledge that makes this worth not giving up. If it were not for your help I would have done so long ago. I am just to stubborn to ever admit defeat. 

Thank you all so very much.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 19, 2020)

Kurt, 

I am going to switch over to nitric until I can get some high grade sodium nitrate. 
I am not sure of the ration using nitric. I no some say 4 to 1. HCL 4 parts to 1 nitric. What are your thoughts on that? I have a 5 lb batch of ceramic cpu's I am ready to start. 

Thanks again. 
Kirk.


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## Mountain Man (Feb 20, 2020)

Hey Shark, 
I was re-reading your comments on sodium nitrate and the salts they can produce. I have been plaque'd by the salts in virtually every batch I have ever done. All the things that you mentioned that the salts could do to my batches are exactly what they do. When you said that heat needed to be involved for some reason I thought you meant when I was trying to recover the gold but I just realized you meant in the beginning stages of the batch and that heat would help reduce or eliminate the salts from the S.N.. I have never been able to solve the mystery of the salts and the loss of significant amounts of gold do to not being able to separate the salts from the gold. I live in N. Id. and it gets dang cold here and in the dissolving stage of my batches, it is sitting outside in a cold wood shed. It is not until I take it back to my gold processing room that it gets warm again. I have been plagued with this problem since I started doing this over 4 years ago. 

Have I understood what you were saying? 

Kirk.


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## Shark (Feb 20, 2020)

In my experience when you heat a solution more salts will dissolve into it. The heat will also aid in the dissolving of your metals. When it cools the excess salts will drop back out. Example, when making nitric acid, you add your chemicals and heat it up. This will make a form of nitric which is contaminated with sulfate salts which become noticeable as it cools to ambient temperatures. To clean those sulfates even more you can sit the whole solution in a cold atmosphere, somewhere around 32*F or around freezing. The salts will now form even more while leaving a cleaner nitric acid. The same often happens with poormans AR due to over use of the nitrate salts. Even a pure form of of salts will do this if you add to much, but you do have less filtering problems the purer the salts are. 

When using salts for your nitrates it easy to over add the nitrates. Keep in mind most left over salts are still a nitrate that lacked the other necessary ingredients to become nitric acid. Most often a lack of water. Heat will allow them into solution and work to some extent, but they will fall back out once cool.

NOT preferred but works
To aid in the separation you can filter while it is still hot the first time. This removes solids and allows your gold and most salts to pass through. Once it cools you can filter again and trap the salts and rinse with very cold water which will take some of the salts with it but leave the majority. 

Preferred
Or you can filter, then drop your gold while hot, so as to keep the salts in solution. Being very careful as it will boil over easily when adding the precipitate (which I like hot as well). Once your stannous test is negative, use hot water for your first wash cycle to remove the vast majority of the salts. If you used a large amount of nitrate salts you may want to do the hot water a few times (I always do several), depending on how clean you want your gold. This also helps remove any acids from your gold and stops some losses when melting. 

Keep in mind:
The vast amount of left over salts are water soluble, especially in hot water. 

I have noticed as well if there is copper in your material, at times it will aid in the production of nitric acid, and cause an over use of nitrate salts. This makes killing any excess nitric produced harder. Heat and sulfamic acid works, but makes it harder to identify when the nitric is actually killed off as sulfamic has the ability to reproduce the needed sulfuric to make salts into acids. When it does work it is a noticeable change in the reactions. Hot solutions and adding sulfamic can be very violent, add it slowly.

Hope that helps


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## Mountain Man (Feb 21, 2020)

Kurt, 

I have a 5 lb. batch of ceramic cpu's all dissolved and filtered. Buckner filter. The gold content shows very high. I have also have on hand pure copper powder and the copper plate I used before. But before I drop the gold I would like to know which way you prefer? Powder or Plate? 

Kirk


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## anachronism (Feb 21, 2020)

I'll bet Kurt's answer is powder. 

That given I would go with Ferrous Sulphate 8) 8)


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## Mountain Man (Feb 22, 2020)

I don't have any Ferrous Sulfate. I do have smb, copper powder, or copper plate. Your choice would F.S. and I am not opposed to getting it. I am curious why that is your choice? I am not doubting your reasons I just don't know them. 

Kirk


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## Shark (Feb 22, 2020)

Ferrous sulfate is pretty good at dropping gold from dirty solutions with minimal drag down of non gold metals. In other words, the gold drops cleaner from dirty solutions. If your doing a second refine, it can help to use ferrous sulfate as a first drop, then another precipitant such as SMB for the second. This allows you to perform two refines, in the same basic methods, producing different results of cleanliness. Cleaning your gold at the end of each refine, with good washing habits, will produce some very nice quality gold. 

As for the copper, I think Kurt will go with powder as well, but that is only based on some recent study of cementing with copper. This thread has me looking at some new things to try. I am waiting to see what Kurt replies as well.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 3, 2020)

Hello Shark and Kurt, 

I have been hard at work in my g. room and have made some changes. 1. I no longer use nitrates. I look back and read thru notes from the past and have decided the losses compared to using nitric is well worth the cost of nitric. 2. I am using the copper powder and I like it best over the copper plate. Reason being is that some white powder accumulates on the plating and I don't know from what. Also, the process of recleaning the plate of copper is a hassle. I like the power but have used to much in the early batches and have an excess of copper powder mixed with the gold powder. The gold powder is a very nice clean brown but I am wondering how to separate the gold from the powder. I have a question, will Nitric alone dissolve the copper powder? I know it won't dissolve gold by itself but I do not know about the copper. I like the clean gold powder I get from using the copper powder instead of the copper plate as well. What are your thoughts on Nitric dissolving the copper?

MtnMan.


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## Shark (Mar 3, 2020)

Make sure there are no acid residues left in your copper/gold precipitate before doing any of the following. PH test wash waters to be sure. Remaining residues of acid could cause some of your gold to go back into solution.

Once your sure there is no acid left, add some hydrochloric acid to the powders and heat to a low boil, being sure to use a catch pan (pyrocyram) and a watch glass. It should turn a shade of green if copper is the primary contaminant as in copper chloride. (I use hydrochloric so as to save some on the cost of nitric and it works very well) Blue would indicate the possibility of left over nitric (copper nitrate) Repeat this until the hydrochloric shows no signs of coloring, while rinsing with water in between the hydrochloric wash's. If done until there is no discoloring of the hydrochloric and boiling in water shows no cloudiness you will have some very clean gold. Done right it will push three nines or very close.

I hope Kurt weighs in here, I would appreciate his input as well.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 3, 2020)

Thank You Shark, 

As always I am extremely grateful for your help and your willingness to share your knowledge and wisdom. I truly do appreciate it more than words can provide. 

I will let you know how it goes. 

I too would like to hear from Kurt.

Kirk.


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## Alliedft (Mar 17, 2020)

Mountain man am I reading it right that you are processing everything and instead of dropping the gold your just putting in drums with copper to deal with later?

As for these guys on here they are awesome, I'm sure some of the questions we ask makes them roll their eyes a few times but they are always willing to help. Great goup


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## Mountain Man (Mar 17, 2020)

Alliedft

No, that is not what I meant. What I was saying is that in the past I have only used SMB to drop gold from my solutions and the result has been that I have not been able to recover all the gold. That being said when I was talking with Kurt and Shark about it they suggested I use copper. Either plate or powder. My comment was that I was glad over the fact the I did not discard all the solutions for the last 3 years and just stored them in 55 gal plastic drums and when I get a chance to go back to them I am going to use copper to recover the gold that I know is still in the solutions. 

I am now using copper. I have tried the plate copper and the powder and I prefer the powder. It is dropping all the gold for me now. The hard part I am with now is how to separate the excess copper from the gold powder. I tried boiling the gold and excess copper powder in HCL but it did not dissolve the copper like I expected it to. Do you have any idea's or thoughts on how to remove the excess copper powder?


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## Mountain Man (Mar 17, 2020)

Any thoughts on how to remove the excess copper powder from the gold powder? I am using copper powder to drop the gold and it works great but, separating the excess copper from the gold is proving to be some what difficult. I have tried boiling the copper/gold powder mixture in HCL but it is not removing all copper. I thought I cleaned it all out but my 1.6 ounce nugget is holding copper too. I don't want to smelt the rest of the powder with copper hitchhiking on my gold nugget. 

Kirk


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## GreenEWaste (Mar 17, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Alliedft
> 
> Do you have any idea's or thoughts on how to remove the excess copper powder?



Please forgive me if I have missed something, still fairly new to this and have yet to try my hand at doing it physically but could you not use some hot dilute nitric acid to dissolve the excess copper instead of hcl?
Regards,
Brody.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 17, 2020)

The problem that I have is the size of the button. It weighs in at 1.4 ounces. The hot nitric or hcl, are not reaching the inside of the nugget do to the gold content. I am thinking that perhaps I will put it back into a new aqua regia solution and dissolve it all, then drop the gold again with smb first and then see where I am at. This technique of using copper I like very well but only if I can separate the gold from from the powder.


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## jarlowski1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> The problem that I have is the size of the button. It weighs in at 1.4 ounces. The hot nitric or hcl, are not reaching the inside of the nugget do to the gold content. I am thinking that perhaps I will put it back into a new aqua regia solution and dissolve it all, then drop the gold again with smb first and then see where I am at. This technique of using copper I like very well but only if I can separate the gold from from the powder.



You would be on the right track but I would suggest to melt the gold and pour it into water to make smaller bbs aka. shot or cornflakes, the flatter the better. This way when you re-dissolve the gold it won't take as long, it will still take a while though. Then precipitate with smb and wash the gold really well following the wash procedures outlined in the forum.


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## Shark (Mar 17, 2020)

To get it really clean it will need to be in the fresh dropped powder form. Then low boil the powders in HCl, using just enough heat to get small bubbles forming slowly. It may take several minutes to do the job as well as several times. Trying to do this to a button will only clean the outside, and not deep enough to pass a good XRF machines test. 

If it were mine, I would put the button into solution in AR and fully dissolve it. The smaller the pieces, the faster it will get done. Melting and pouring it to shot or flakes will speed it up a good bit. Filter it until perfectly clear. It may take several filtering's to get it done right.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26820

Dissolve ferrous sulfate in water With a tiny bit of HCl and heat it and the AR (separately) to a medium heat, I use the medium mark on a hot plate. Very slowly add the dissolved ferrous sulfate into the AR, it WILL boil over if added to fast, and more so if dirty. Keep the heat on until it fully drops and settles out. (don't forget to test, test and test) 

Remove the excess by decanting or siphoning off the now barren of gold solution, leaving the powders undisturbed. 

Once done, use water to rinse any excess acid residues from the powders. Bringing the water to a low simmering boil for several minutes, several times. 

Using HCl bring the powders to a simmering boil several minutes. Remove the HCl and use water to repeat the boiling again. Keep alternating between hot water and hot HCl washs until the HCl has no color change and the water steps show no cloudiness of any kind.

If at any point I had doubts, I would start over by putting it back into solution with AR, and using another precipitant, such as SMB, sodium nitrite, oxalic acid or ascorbic acid. SMB is what I have on hand right now so that would be my choice. Then repeat all the same steps of washing over again. 

Do you have a picture of the gold button your working on?


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## Mountain Man (Mar 17, 2020)

Thank you for your help. 
I do not have a picture but I can get one. It will be later today though. I have a Dr's appointment I have to leave for very soon. When I get back I will post a picture. When I smelted this I only did half the powder I have. The other half is still in powder form and still has copper powder in the gold powder. 

I will get back on the forum as soon as I get back from the Dr.'s office. 

Thanks again for your help. I value the wealth of knowledge, experience and all of your willingness to help. 

Mtnman.


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## Alliedft (Mar 17, 2020)

Copper powder works good unless you put to much and you end up with ,copper mixed with the gold that you dropped like you are experiencing. The best way I have found is the old way of taking copper ground bar bending it into a triangle, set it in the bucket and put a fish aquarium air bubbler in it and no excess copper will fall into the drop. It will only use the amount of copper needed. Get an aquarium air bubbler and it will do all the work for you


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