# PINS REFINING



## taborc (Apr 20, 2007)

Hi all,

I just got my winnings from Steve, thanks to the forum and Steve what I'm wanting to know is what is the best way to do these pins AR or the cell ?

Thanks for the help,

Chris


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## lazersteve (Apr 20, 2007)

Taborc,

Try using the Experimental Anode as in the Tutorial:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=91

You'll need a functioning cell to use it.

Alternately, you can pull the pins from the header plastic and use the crockpot method:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=155

Keep us posted here on the forum and ask lots of questions in the Tutorials Comments/Questions section for whichever method you choose.

Steve


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## Noxx (Apr 20, 2007)

I agree ! HCl in a crockpot would be a good idea.


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## taborc (Apr 30, 2007)

Do I use just HCI ??? cus I heard of puting some thing else in with it


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## Noxx (Apr 30, 2007)

Nop !
Plain HCl will do the trick.


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## champ110 (May 1, 2007)

does that leave you with little gold flakes that you can filter off and would muriatic acid work for this?


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## Noxx (May 1, 2007)

Champ, Muriatic Acid is HCl but in a lower concentration (31%). It works perfectly. 
Yes, it will gives you nice gold flakes.


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## champ110 (May 1, 2007)

so you just throw those pins in and let em roast...sounds good


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## Noxx (May 1, 2007)

Yup !
Please give results of your experiments when they'll be done.


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## catfish (May 1, 2007)

noxx:

What is the ratio of HCl (ML) to the amount of pins (Grams)?

Also what temp should one run the crock pot and how long does it take.

I have accumilated quite a few very small pins that I need to do something with. They are too small for the Cell and I dont like to run them through AR for they have a lot of junk metals in them. 

I thought about running them through Steve's H2O2/HCL bucket, but the pins are so small that they would go through the holes in the basket bucket.

I have done some in Nitric, but the nitric is much more expensive than HCL.

This sounds very interesting , maybe somthing I need to try.

Thanks

Catfish


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## alexmaywood (Jun 4, 2007)

Hi!
I pulled app. 8 oz gold coated pins from Motorola MAC CPUs and put them into muriatic acid. However, I did not heat them but left in barn. They stayed there for 5 days. The temperature was about 70 F. Recently I looked what's going on. The pins did not turn into flakes but are looking now more like silver ones.
What should it mean? Did I something wrong?
Alex


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## lazersteve (Jun 4, 2007)

Alex,

Have you tried stirring the pins?

The gold tends to fall to the bottom or get lodged in the mass of pins when left undisturbed. If you don't stir occassionally, this can lead to a large 'solid' mass of pins in the bottom of the pot that lift out as one piece. You can bust it up or just add some fresh acid to loosen them and poke them apart with a wooden or plastic stick. You should still be able to see some floating gold around.

The silvery color may just be a whiteish cuporus chloride (CuCl). It will change to green if exposed to air. HCl will dissolve it to a dark green/black liquid. 

Steve


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## alexmaywood (Jun 5, 2007)

Thanks, Steve.

Yes, I stir it once a day and it does not form any clump yet. The acid is clear, by stirring becomes a dark grey. I do not see any visible amount of gold "dust" there. Probably, some particles. The pins are mostly silverish now. 
The question is - should I wait till the acid "eats" all the metals out? How long will it take? Actually, I do not have any alternatives.
What is the ratio pins:HCl? probably, I add to little acid for to much pins?
What is meaning of H2O2 adding to HCl? Does it speed the process? Or makes the acid more powerful?
I read once on ebay, that by dissolving of procs or pins in AR one should keep the ratio of 1# of ceramic procs or 150 g of pins to 1 quart of AR. Otherwise gold will not precipitate. At another site I read that one have to add procs to AR till AR "eats" all the gold on them and stop adding only if it reacts no more. Who of them had the most reason?


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## lazersteve (Jun 5, 2007)

You said the acid was clear and turns gray when stirred. Were the pins 100% gold plated or partially plated? Were they plated over brass, copper, or some other base metal. If the base metal is copper the solution will start off turning a green color and then become darker as time goes on. What is the HCl percent concentration? It sounds like you need more acid or more concentrated acid. I think the gold may be 'hiding' in the gray powder/ color. Extra acid may clear the gray out.

As for how much acid to use for the pins, add it until the pins are dissolved. Peroxide activates the acid to help it oxidize the copper in the pins. Too much peroxide, especially with heat added will cause the gold to dissolve into the liquid.

Your questions about AR can all be answered by Catfish's document which reports the various amounts of AR needed to process specific amounts of cpus and pins. If you PM him and request a copy of the spreadsheet, I'm sure he will be glad to send it to you. 

Photos would help solve your problem with the pins.

Steve


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## alexmaywood (Jun 6, 2007)

The pins are quite ordinary computer CPU pins, such as, for example, on Intel 486 processors, app. 0.2 in long, fully gold plated. What is the base metal - I don't know. Must be usual. If Motorola uses the same materials as Intel. Chips are 5-7 years old. But there is no any green color present, or even a shade of it. May it be nickel or steel alloy?

There is a tiny drop of (lead?) alloy on one end. 

Muriatic acid is 31.45% solution. It may be so slow because it's cool now, outside temperatures are about 65 F. Probably it would give better reaction when heated. Or wait some time.

Tomorrow I will try to make a picture. Hope the colors will be reproduced adequately.

Thanks for information, altogether


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## lazersteve (Jun 6, 2007)

Alex,

I seem to remember the motorola cpus having steel for the base metal of the legs. Are the legs magnetic? This could explain the lack of green color and the silvery base color. The gold should still be in the mix somewhere. If all the pins appear silvery you might be ready to move on to the filtering stage. You may not be able to see the gold due to the gray color. Hopefully the gray will wash out with the right acid wash. 

Please post photos when you can.


Steve


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## alexmaywood (Jun 15, 2007)

Hi!

I was on my business trip, sorry for delay. Here are the pictures of my pins. First one is taken when the acid was still and clear. The second one right after stirring. At the second picture you can see tiny particles of gold swimming around. There was some pins from another CPU (not Motorola). Their golden coats are flying in acid now as if weightless. 

The problem is - how to get gold now out of acid. Filtering seems to give a little.

The pins are* magnetic*.


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## alexmaywood (Jun 15, 2007)

The order of pictures is wrong. The second must be first.


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## lazersteve (Jun 15, 2007)

Sounds like you need a better filter. Try using 5-6 coffee filters in a stack if you don't have a vaccuum setup. I would let it settle, pour off the bulk of the clear liquid, and filter the rest.

Steve


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## alexmaywood (Jun 22, 2007)

But how to separate steel pins from gold dust?


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## fafrd (Jun 23, 2007)

ok i have done about 2 pounds of pins now all turned out great now i have a full pound in a a 3gallon bucket acid is hcl+peroxide on a 2to1 mixture here u go 3 cups hcl to 1 and half peroxide now its been 2 days and i have stirred numerous times and a little gold has come off but about 95% is still on the pins any help would be nice thank you fafrd (matt) oh yea should also say the acid is dark gray more than likely green but the bucket is green too


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## aflacglobal (Jun 23, 2007)

alexmaywood said:


> But how to separate steel pins from gold dust?


 The pins are magnetic.

I'm just guessing here. Don't hold me to it. 

If all the gold is off the pins. Could a magnet be used to pull the steel pins up the side of the jar and out of the acid. Not in the acid, but outside the jar to guide them out. Then filter what is left. Even if you didn't get all gold off the first time, These could be re run to recover what might be remaining. Sort of like classifying it down.

Ralph


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## lazersteve (Jun 23, 2007)

Matt,

If I understand you correctly the liquid is gray as opposed to green. This is a good sign that you have too much HCl in the mix. Can you post a picture so I can see into the bucket and a photo of the source material (pins). I can help you better with a good photo or two.

Steve


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## Dog Biscuit (Jun 23, 2007)

alexmaywood said:


> But how to separate steel pins from gold dust?



From one newbie to another: Try filtering off the acid. Rinse pins with acid and filter. Place pins in flat pyrex dish and remove with magnet or tweezers. Good luck.


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## champ110 (Jun 23, 2007)

i have 3 mason jars setup with different pins and in 2 of them the muriatic acid turned a goldish color overnight. i was wondering if this is normal and if not what should i do. thanks 
Cody


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## lazersteve (Jun 23, 2007)

Cody,

Did you add peroxide to the jars? If not this is pretty common for HCl to turn yellow after standing. Try adding a small cap full or two of 3% peroxide with stirring to one of the jars and let us know what happens in that jar. 

Steve


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## champ110 (Jun 24, 2007)

i added some peroxide and the jar almost immediately turned a light shade of green. im guessing this is what i should have done in the first place. i think i read somewhere on the forum that this could dissolve some gold. so im guessing check with stannous or see if any precips with a little smb?
Cody


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## lazersteve (Jun 24, 2007)

If you don't heat it you should be okay. Testing is always a must.


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## champ110 (Jul 1, 2007)

how long should it take to dissolve a little under a pound of pins? ive been adding a little peroxid every once and a while but it seems really slow


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## lazersteve (Jul 1, 2007)

Champ,

Try adding some more peroxide periodically, this will speed things up. Stirring helps a lot also. If you have larger batches of loose pins the solution can take quite some time. Pins are best processed by other means unless they are still in the header plastic. The plastic keeps the pins from blocking the soluton from etching the gold surface. When all the pins are loose, they form a protective barrier to the gold by pressing against each other. The solution needs to be in contact with the gold plate to etch it away from the copper.

Steve


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## Dog Biscuit (Jul 1, 2007)

champ110,

I just finished my first one pound batch of wire wrap pins. It was a long story. Here goes: Started with straight HCl and periodic heat - waited four days - no action. Got bored and added peroxide. Bubbles but not much to show on the pins. Added heat to a boil and cooked it for several hours. Drained yellow-green acid and notice about half the pins were stripped and absolutely no gold flakes. I drained and filtered the acid and put the pins in water to soak for about a week while I tried to decide what to do. After reading some of these posts, I mixed up another batch of AP and tried again (no heat). In about another week, most of the pins were disolved and there were lots of gold flakes. I filtered this material and transfered it to a smaller container, added a small amount of AP, and 24 hour later the pins were done. I used about a gallon of HCl for this batch. Subsequently, I was able to recover the missing gold from the first acid with sodium sulfite.


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## P_CARROLL (Jul 3, 2007)

I use 2 liters fo HCl to 1 pound of pins and heat it in a crock pot. Usually takes 2 baths to dissolve the base metals.


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## hilld2000 (Jul 18, 2007)

What happens to the HCl after dissolving the base metals?
Can it be recovered to be used again?
(I am loathe to spend money on fresh supplies if I do not have to)


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## Noxx (Jul 18, 2007)

No, HCl can't be recovered. The HCl digests bases metals and transforms them into Chlorides (I think).


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## mike.fortin (Jul 18, 2007)

hilld2000 said:


> What happens to the HCl after dissolving the base metals?
> Can it be recovered to be used again?
> (I am loathe to spend money on fresh supplies if I do not have to)



Hilld2000-- I dont like spending acid money eather. My plan is to drop out all base metals in acid like lazersteve said. Then I plan to put solution into a bucket with parts Im not in big hurry to get results from like I am fingers. If no more stuff disolves after 10 days I plan to discard. Hope my plan makes economic sense. Let me know if Im wrong guys. Mike.


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## lazersteve (Jul 18, 2007)

HillD2K said:


> What happens to the HCl after dissolving the base metals?
> Can it be recovered to be used again?



Noxx is right the HCl becomes metal chlorides. The important thing to note about the chlorides formed is that some are actually better at dissolving certain base metals (ie: copper) than HCl is! :shock: 

If you read the Copper Chloride document on my website you can see that Copper Chloride (formed when AP dissolves copper from pins and fingers) can be regenerated back from the spent form (CuCl= cuprous chloride) to the active copper hunger form (CuCl2= cupric chloride) by simply bubbling air thru the solution. Another method is to add more peroxide as I demonstrated several times in the Acid Peroxide Tutorial.

Once you drop the copper out off the solution you will need more HCl to reform the CuCl2. So if you want to reuse your AP solution just don't drop the copper and bubble air thru it. It will lighten to a nearly clear green/blue color and be ready to eat more copper metal. 

You may need to add a small amount of HCl if the acid level gets too low in the solution, but I've actually used just CuCl2 crystals, Peroxide, and water to etch fingers before. You can make your own crystals by evaporating the emerald green AP solution when your fingers are done. You should filter it good before evaporating. 

The reason I drop my copper is that over time the solution continually is growing due to the amount of copper it is absorbing. You end up with a greater volume of solution than you started with. :shock: You'll have so much copper chloride on hand you have to find a way to get rid of it!!! Trouble with Tribbles I guess!!! :lol: 

Here's the science behind the reaction:

Copper(II) dissolving Copper Metal (0) = 2 Copper (I)

Cu(++) + Cu(0) = 2Cu(+)

and the simplified regeration step which requires H+ (acid) and Air 2O:

4Cu(+) + 2O + 4H(+) = 4Cu(++) +2H2O

Notice the extra water on the right side.

The Cu++ is charged positive 2 and attracts the lower charged Cu+ into the solution. The energy required to do this is lost from the Cu++ and it becomes Cu+. When all the Cu++ are used up you need to rejuvenate them.

This is a very simpified example of a more complicated reaction, but you all should get the point. The Cu++ is doing the etching and needs to be rejuvenated occasionally with oxygen.

Steve


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## aflacglobal (Jul 18, 2007)

Once you drop the copper out off the solution you will need more HCl to reform the CuCl2. So if you want to reuse your AP solution just don't drop the copper and bubble air thru it. It will lighten to a nearly clear green/blue color and be ready to eat more copper metal. 

Steve, Is that suppose to be just drop the copper, instead of don't, like written.

Ralph


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## lazersteve (Jul 18, 2007)

Ralph,

It is correct as written. If you want to reuse the AP *don't* drop the copper out. You'll end up using more HCl to redissolve the copper you drop out to form more CuCl2.

Steve


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## aflacglobal (Jul 18, 2007)

So if you want to reuse your AP solution just don't drop the copper and bubble air thru it 

I guess it's the way i read it. It 's kind of confusing. Maybe like this. :arrow: So if you want to reuse your AP solution don't drop the copper, just bubble air thru it.

I'm slow.


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## lazersteve (Jul 18, 2007)

I see what you mean Ralph. I should have left the 'just' out completely.

Steve


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