# Random stuff



## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 5, 2016)

So, I'm sitting in my shop, waiting for stuff to digest, settle, then finish precipitating, and i was curious.

How many of you listen to music in your workspace?

If so, what?

Anyone think of crazy stuff like me? (hah!) like, it seems that when precipitating gold from a non contaminated solution, the gold likes to fall to the bottom faster while listening to classic rock... (hey...just an observation...maybe your gold likes country or silky smooth r&b..)

Anyone ever get a bunch of e-sCRAP and not know what to do with it?...i have it hand over fist... So, i did this..

And....everyones stuff(pictures of their lab) looks soooo nice and clesn and perfectly tidy... Granted, i just got done running my still and have stuff working, so my work area is a pig sty... But....am i the only one?
(my lab stays locked, anyone walking through the door must put on vinyl feet booties and gloves...doesnt matter if their going to the garage side or lab...its a requirement..

By the time im done working tonight it will be back to pristine, but, does everyone REALLY keep everything THAT spotless while running a few processes at once?

Anything else random you want to talk about? Hit me with it! Give me your ideas...your curiosities and criticisms... I want to know!


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## 4metals (Apr 5, 2016)

Just a quick question. Was your fume hood removed so we can see what you're doing? Please don't tell me you work without exhaust. In a house!!!!!!! If nothing else, your stereo won't last long.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 5, 2016)

4metals said:


> Just a quick question. Was your fume hood removed so we can see what you're doing? Please don't tell me you work without exhaust. In a house!!!!!!! If nothing else, your stereo won't last long.



My fume hood isnt up yet, i just got moved into a new house... And no, thats my garage.. I do nothing inside my house. 

I have the garage door open with a HUGE fan blowing in, and two window fans to blow the foul fumes out. ...basically the 2 windows on my lab side (lab is segregated from the garage space where i keep my radio, tools, and my awesome projector table) and a big fan to push the air in while the window fans suck it out... Not much, but better than the basement refiners hoke speaks of (not much, but its allowed me to keep working while building my equipment)


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## 4metals (Apr 5, 2016)

Plenty of good threads on this forum for making hoods, hopefully it's number 1 on the list. Not for your lungs, for the stereo!


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 5, 2016)

But my lungs help me enjoy the stereo! And yes it is absolutely first and foremost my first finished build. And, there indeed is a great many posts on the matter... But, the one i have chosen to adopt to my workspace is one that you have went into detail on. I have all of the required materials... Just need a nice day to come. 

When we moved i told myself "okay, get these stock pots (yes...multiple pots...youtube should be banned from life..) out of the way, then build your wall, then your fume hood, then your incinerator, then furnace, then live life and prosper"

So far...ive got my pots done....and built this table.... 
So close...but sooooo far away.

Thanks 4metals! You sharing your knowledge and experience is beyond kind and is a great inspiration.


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## alexxx (Apr 6, 2016)

I see many things that can catch fire in there...

A good fire extinguisher man !!! A smoke detector is also important if the party starts when you are away...

investment -> $50


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 6, 2016)

alexxx said:


> I see many things that can catch fire in there...
> 
> A good fire extinguisher man !!! A smoke detector is also important if the party starts when you are away...
> 
> investment -> $50



Yeah, that has been/is a real concern...especially since my garage interior is all wood on the lab side, no drywall... The guy who lived here before me was a scrapper, and used recycled msterials to build his garage addition... Poorly, but still built 4 walls and a roof...

It wasnt a thought in my mind at all, until one day i pull up in my drive...i smell smoke.... I SEE smoke... I think "oh shoot" (expletive deleted)...literally throw the car in neutral, slam the ebrake. Run to the back...and see my neighbor who was burning brush behind his fence, has caught my fence and yard on fire... ...we lived here 2 weeks and already had a fire....NOT from me... BUT, that made me wake up and smell the embers, so i got a CO2 fire extinguisher and 50 boxes of baking soda..

My neighbor was cool and apologetic... He gave me a huge spool of copper wire and thermocouple wire from the avionics industry as he used to be a big dog at one of the airplane mfgs (there are many here)

So, yes, fire prevention has been a nagging concept in the back of my mind..
Isnt it funny/peculiar, how, almost everything that is great at fire resistance ...brick...glass (some)..metal...clay... Has all gotten its birthright by fire?.. 

Anyways, thanks for the advice and discussion gentlemen... My wife thinks all this stuff and science mumbo-jumbo is frivolous... Doesnt she realise that science has given her everything in life she takes for granted....


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## Smack (Apr 7, 2016)

I don't see a stereo, I saw 2 projection arrays but no stereo, must be hidden. Do get an exhaust set up, whiff after whiff ads up and then all of a sudden the music goes silent.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 7, 2016)

Smack said:


> I don't see a stereo, I saw 2 projection arrays but no stereo, must be hidden. Do get an exhaust set up, whiff after whiff ads up and then all of a sudden the music goes silent.



Yeah, my stereo was behind me on the counter in my picture of my mess. 

And oh yes...my tool bag i accidently left on my lab side is all gone to hell now, so i wholeheartedly know that it is of dire importance..

...i guess im the only person who loves to listen to music while working though


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## upcyclist (Apr 7, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> ...i guess im the only person who loves to listen to music while working though


Nope, I listen to music, too, but just the radio. I'm not willing to risk original CDs or MP3 players in the fumes, and too lazy to make dupes. When the boombox dies, I'll just scrap it, too, then buy another one from a thrift shop or garage sale.


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## alexxx (Apr 7, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> Smack said:
> 
> 
> > ...i guess im the only person who loves to listen to music while working though



I never put music while working in the lab. I get paranoid every time. Did the blower from the hood just stopped? Did a beaker just cracked?

I like to have all my senses undisturbed when playing with chemicals and heat. That's my #1 safety advice.
Your nose and ears are the very best safety net you can have, especially at some point when you know your tools, equipment and environment.

While doing 6 different things at the same time, my ears can tell me that the blower from the main hood is running normaly, that the second blower from the other hood is not drawing enough air by its sound (tells me I left the slidding door open), I can ear the hotplate #4 starting a new cycle of heating, I can ear an overflow of a few drops or the condensed drops hitting the hot corning ware dish and making a cracking sound at hotplate #2, I can ear that there's no more drips going down from that 2nd big pot in the front (I can add more solution to filter)... I know everything that is going on in the lab just by listening. Having music in the workspace would kill the workflow and lower the whole safety.

If I had to pay an employee to run the lab, that would be one of the main rules, no music, no cell phones, no food, no cigarettes.
You need to ear and smell everything... But again, thats me, I'm a total paranoid freak...


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## kurtak (Apr 8, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> I have the garage door open with a HUGE fan blowing in, and two window fans to blow the foul fumes out.



Per the underlined above --- get rid of the fan that is "blowing in" --- it is defeating the purpose of the two window fans blowing out

Your room needs to be under negative air pressure which is what a fume hood does --- it "draws" air "from" the room "through" the hood & "out" the vent --- your window fans are doing the same thing - they are drawing air through the room & out the window --- so although they are not a true fume hood they are affecting the same principle

The fan you have blowing in is creating a positive air pressure (thereby defeating the negative pressure) in other words yes - the fan blowing air in is bringing fresh air in from outside - but it is a positive air pressure - therefore it is not removing fumes - instead it is causing an air current that is actually helping to "circulate" the fumes around "within" the room

What you want is for the window fans to be "drawing" the old air (along with the fumes) out thereby creating the negative air pressure that in turn cause fresh air to be "drawn" in from outside the room --- in other words it becomes a deliberate "one" direction air flow of old air (& fumes) being drawn out with fresh air replacing it as its drawn in from outside & thereby flowing through the room in the direction of the out draw of the window fans

Your window fans NEED to run 24/7 until you get your fume hood built & the you NEED to let your fume hood run 24/7 for the same reason --- in other words you want you room (lab) under "constant" (24/7) "negative" air pressure

Edit to add; - if your garage is attached to the house & if it has heating & air vents going from the house heating & air system into the garage you NEED to "block" the vents in the garage off so that the house system is not any longer associated with the garrage

Kurt


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## 4metals (Apr 8, 2016)

Kurt is right on here. While make up air is helpful to the effective use of an exhaust flow, it has to be a controlled rate. Your exhaust flow in CFM has to exceed the inflow of make-up air. Just placing fans does little to make them balanced. A refinery must maintain negative pressure. Positive pressure will force all of the fumes not caught in a hood area to be forced into every little air leak in the structure in their quest for freedom. And in that journey, they are transferring their corrosive properties to everything they touch on the way. 

Until you can balance the flow properly, just keep the window fans running and leave an open door to supply make up air, that will maintain a negative pressure in the space.

Good call Kurt!


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## rickbb (Apr 8, 2016)

Since I spent most of my youth trying to make myself go deaf from loud music, cars and motorcycles, I've grown very fond the sounds of silence. Especially when I'm trying to concentrate on something, I find it's more distracting than soothing. But I've always been ok with being alone with my thoughts.


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2016)

The extraction system in my lab will cool the lab down because it extracts at a high rate from the fume cabinet. I prefer it that way. I can stand two feet from the opening on the cabinet even with the front fully open with a cigarette in my hand and see the smoke moving towards the cabinet. The extractor fan, which is mounted outside is industrial and only running at approx 50% of capacity as the flow is governed with air baffles opening to the external air. 

I do play music in my shop though. I prefer to work with music and I can tell if the extractor isn't working. If a glass cracks, the worst that can happen is that it goes first into the catch pan, and secondly into the base of the fume cabinet which is also a large catch pan. 

Topher- your setup scares me Sir if you would allow me to be completely honest. Absolutely no offence intended but it's got so many issues that I'm sure you'll address because you seem like the kind of guy who listens to good advice. If I can be of any assistance at all then I would be more than happy to give you the benefit of my limited knowledge. I'll put my money where my mouth is and post a picture of my own workspace this weekend as it's only fair to do so if I'm offering you constructive criticism.

Regards

Jon


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 8, 2016)

spaceships said:


> The extraction system in my lab will cool the lab down because it extracts at a high rate from the fume cabinet. I prefer it that way. I can stand two feet from the opening on the cabinet even with the front fully open with a cigarette in my hand and see the smoke moving towards the cabinet. The extractor fan, which is mounted outside is industrial and only running at approx 50% of capacity as the flow is governed with air baffles opening to the external air.
> 
> I do play music in my shop though. I prefer to work with music and I can tell if the extractor isn't working. If a glass cracks, the worst that can happen is that it goes first into the catch pan, and secondly into the base of the fume cabinet which is also a large catch pan.
> 
> ...



You really need to stop smoking around the chemicals and go outside and smoke. Reguardless of the good exiting air flow. 8)


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2016)

Caffiene nicotine and cyanide are a great mix. 8) 8) Joking aside (obviously nobody takes that comment seriously do they?) you're right Frank.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 8, 2016)

spaceships said:


> Caffiene nicotine and cyanide are a great mix. 8) 8) Joking aside (obviously nobody takes that comment seriously do they?) you're right Frank.



That sounds like the breakfast of champions.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 8, 2016)

Wow, this thread kindof blew up since i looked last!

Okay, to address concerns..

My garage is 200 yards from my house. The big fan blowing in is essential only part of the day, just because of my exhaust windows being hit by the morning sun and making the fumes stick around so i need excess pressure in the lab to aide the small window fans to pull (that might not be exactly why it works but it does..)

And i too, use the good ol cigarette test to see where my air is going...

I listen to music too loud...drive my 06 subaru too fast... And abide by the caffeine and nicotine breakfast of champions...
I dont worry about the sounds too much, (as i should..) because, if i hear a clink or crack...99% of the time, its my ceramic hotplates... Ive only had one glass break on the burner, and that was because i, am an idiot at times.

So, i try not to be a paranoid android (not that its a bad thing...chance favors the prepared) but, really...what could i truly do to stop a fracturing reactor vessel on my still?--oh no! Let me just grab that and get it off-splish, splash, taking an acid bath... That doesnt sound fun.

I know im missing some concerns that were addressed, so, ill reread and reply accordingly.

Thanks guys!

Edit to fix spelling errs


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 8, 2016)

Kurt...my window fans run all day every day, even if my burners are off, ...because if they are off, theres still a high chance that i have a solution cooling and continuing to evaporate.

Spaceships, i would love to hear any more thoughts on how i could better my space, besides the hood im makingn now..

...man...you guys would have pooped a brick of pure pt if i would have shown you my old 12x10 windowless shed i was using before we moved...


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2016)

Topher trust me - we've ALL been there 8) 8), maybe in differing ways but there's not one person on this forum who could ever swear blind they had always done everything properly. 

Jon

edit for context.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 8, 2016)

spaceships said:


> Topher trust me - we've ALL been there 8) 8), maybe in differing ways but there's not one person on this forum who could ever swear blind they had always done everything properly.
> 
> Jon
> 
> edit for context.




Indeed, we are all the same. In that, we all use what we have and what we can to do with the best we can for the moment. My workspace has evolved exponentially over the past year... Starting with nothing more than a coffee pot, warmer, and 5 gallon bucket with an old aquarium pump to...well, a hot mess of a "lab" where i can pretend to play practical (hobbiest) refiner.

In another years time? Who knows... Maybe my lab will be inside the batcave?...maybe i wont be able to refine at all because the worlds turned to crap(more so than is..)...or maybe my nicotine and caffeine will have done me in by then... 

I dont know for sure... What would i like?...everything on my list earlier to be complete, and my lab to be a true to god lab ...refining high end wastes daily...precipitating 75 ozt from a concentrated solution, like a beast (yeah, you Harold)... I enjoy this hobby a great deal...and with the help and guidance, and wisdom gained by the past experiences of others. I see this becoming a viable outcome.. I do this for me a bit, to keep my mind off of life outside my garage, i do it for a little bit of pocket change...i mainly do it to learn...to grow (as a person, not pot)...and, so that one day, i could leave a little knowledge and lab to my children, as a legacy for what they can do if they put their mind to it and practice a little patience and humility.

Because no one person knows it all


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 8, 2016)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> You really need to stop smoking around the chemicals and go outside and smoke.


Better yet, stop smoking altogether. 

Dave


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## UncleBenBen (Apr 8, 2016)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > You really need to stop smoking around the chemicals and go outside and smoke.
> ...



I guess that's always an option. But perhaps a nice coating of nicotine and tar could actually help protect the lungs from the harmful effects of all the corrosive gasses we love to mess with!  :mrgreen: :lol: 

Yeah, I'm just a glass half full kind of guy like that. 8)


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 8, 2016)

I was smoking around 2 packs a day and my wife was smoking close to a pack when we quit about 25 years ago. Cigarettes had just hit $2.00 a pack.

$2.00 per pack * 3 packs per day * 365 days per year * 25 years = $54,750! And that's at only $2.00 per pack. I prefer to spend that money on silver and gold. 8) 

Dave


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2016)

Lol Dave- it's $12 per pack over here.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 8, 2016)

spaceships said:


> Lol Dave- it's $12 per pack over here.



Damn, i thought 6.81 was bad. That would cause even me to quit smoking


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2016)

Ahh well cost/benefit I guess. Min wage in the UK is $12 per hour- we call it the "living wage" now. What the min wage in the US these days?


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 8, 2016)

spaceships said:


> Ahh well cost/benefit I guess. Min wage in the UK is $12 per hour- we call it the "living wage" now. What the min wage in the US these days?




Ranges state by state... Kansas is 7.25, unless you work as a server for tips, then 2.13$...washington my friend said its 10, or will be...some states still have no min wage...

..i read an article jn the paper last year about how goodwill industries and other charity stores were paying special needs employees 25 cents an hour... 

The struggle is real

Edit spelling


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## UncleBenBen (Apr 8, 2016)

I bought a small hand crank rolling machine about 7 or 8 years ago. I think they had hit about $4.50 USD after another dollar per pack state tax increase. That meant to me, 50 cents for the cigarettes, and 4 dollars to "the man" for being kind enough to "allow" me to have "the right" to buy them.

I decided the man could plant his lips to the south end of a northbound mule! I've saved a fortune with my little machine. Less than 2 bucks for a carton of premade, empty cigarette tubes, clean untreated tobacco at around 25 bucks per pound. I roll 3 packs in the morning while drinking coffee and watching 30-40 minutes of news. Between me and the wife we spend maybe $5 a day. 

And I go waaaay out of my way to keep every other tax dollar that the man wants to steal in my pocket whenever possible.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 8, 2016)

A pack of Marlboro 100's runs $5.80 a pack. And I'm not against buying a pack of papers and rolling my own when I need to.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 8, 2016)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> A pack of Marlboro 100's runs $5.80 a pack. And I'm not against buying a pack of papers and rolling my own when I need to.



I roll my own, only when using recreational things...to get "creative" as my ol' hippy aunt called it... But, thats onyl.right before bed.

Cigs... I got to go with marlboro specisl blend 100s... Regular "lights" now the "gold pack"(since lights made idiots think it was safe..) the blends are cheaper...but, im sure they have more rat poison in them or whatever..

I actually got smoking cessation meds rx'd to me at the dr momday...but, havent made the trip to the pharmacy... And, the horror stories of heard about them making people go mad and try to murder their significant other havent reslly made me jump up and say "I NEED those"


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## UncleBenBen (Apr 8, 2016)

The ones I make are made the same way as regular cigarettes, but only one at a time. But like I said, when I get the rhythm going I can crank out 3 packs in 30 to 40 minutes. That's time I would just be sitting with coffee in the morning watching the news anyway.

I actually surprised myself after I first started doing it. I found I really preferred these over 'store bought'.

I'd walk a mile past a camel to get to my own any day! :lol: 8)


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## alexxx (Apr 9, 2016)

Jon[/quote]

You really need to stop smoking around the chemicals and go outside and smoke. Reguardless of the good exiting air flow. 8)[/quote]

My partner keeps smoking weed in the lab since it's the only place in the whole darn shop where the exiting air flow is good enough.
It drives my paranoia to a total new level of insanity.
That skunky sweety smell always tricks me into thinking that I have some nitric vapor leaks somewhere in the vent system. I'm going totaly crazy.
I think he's doing it on purpose just to mess with me when he gets bored...

I have disciplined myself not to smoke anymore (cigarettes only) in the lab. 

I have realized just recently that the way I breath in the lab is not the same as when I'm anywhere else, even if I know that there's no contaminated air in the room. Some kind of reflex where I don't breath as deep as usual. 
Hard to explain...


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## kurtak (Apr 9, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> My garage is 200 yards from my house. The big fan blowing in is essential only part of the day, just because of my exhaust windows being hit by the morning sun and making the fumes stick around so i need excess pressure in the lab to aide the small window fans to pull (that might not be exactly why it works but it does..)



Topher

Sorry but it DOES NOT work that way - it may "appear" that it is working (to "properly" evacuate the fume) but its not :!: 

Its "a law" of physics :!: 

If you have a "greater" volume of air "entering" the room then the volume of air "exiting" the room - then you are working under "positive" air pressure rather then "negative" air pressure

When you have positive air pressure what happens is that because you have "more" air entering then exiting - only "some" fumes are being carried out by the "less" volume of air that is exiting --- but due to the fact that the air entering is greater then the air exiting - this greater volume of air entering is then simply "circulating" "around" in the room - AND it is carrying with it the fumes that are not being allowed to exit at the same (or actually faster) rate of speed then the air entering

The exit air speed rate MUST be greater then the air enter speed rate - other wise the faster incoming air picks up fumes & "circulates" them "through out" the "entire" room & "deposits" them on "everything" they come in contact with

The faster incoming air does "dilute" them as they move about (in "every" direction) in the room - but they can not possibly be "completely" evacuated - IF the air speed coming in is greater then the air speed going out --- they have "no choice" but to be circulated around in the room - waiting for the slower exit air speed to catch up with the faster incoming air speed (which it never will)

The lab MUST be under negative air pressure in order to insure complete evacuation of the fumes from the lab - meaning the exit air speed MUST be greater then the air entering speed --- its "a law" of physics --- regardless of how it my "look" when you are standing in the middle of the room smoking a cigarette --- in which case looks are "in fact" deceiving - if your incoming air speed is greater the your exit air speed :!: 

Kurt


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## jason_recliner (Apr 9, 2016)

Spot on, Kurt.


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## kurtak (Apr 9, 2016)

jason_recliner said:


> Spot on, Kurt.



So in conclusion (I was going to edit my last post but decided to just post again)

Topher --- I am going to say once again - get rid of the fan that is blowing "in" :!: :!: :!: 

Not only that - but by judging from the size of the window fans (one of which I can see in one of the pics you posted) not only do you need to get rid of the fan blowing in but you also DO NOT want your garage door fully open --- just crack it open some thing like 4 - 6 inches & that will give you a 4 - 6 inch opening top & bottom of the garage door --- & if I understand right - your lab is a room built within the garage (opposite the garage door) if that is the case - & the lab door has a walk through door (opposite the wall of the window fans) --- I would probably only open that door about a foot to a foot & a half --- in fact if the wind is blowing "in" from the direction of the door(s) you may well be better off keeping them closed - the garage is probably not built air tight in the first place & likely "leaks" enough air to "draw" air though it to get the negative air pressure you need 

The important thing is that air moving out through the window fans is "somewhat" faster then the air coming in

Kurt


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## Platdigger (Apr 9, 2016)

I can understand the concept of positive and negative air pressure in a room but, would not the amount of air entering a room have to equal the amount exiting at some point?
I mean if air is being put (blown) in, the amount of pressure depends on how much restriction there is to the air going out. 
And visa versa, depending on how much restriction there was to air being aloud to enter a room when it, air, is being pulled out determines how much negative pressure or vacuum in the room.
So in other words, the pressure, positive or negative can vary, but the amount of air entering and exiting a room will have to be equal at some point.
And Kurt, this may not have anything to do with what your are trying to get across.
I mean I understand what you are trying to say about a negative pressure being what we are after to keep a room evacuated of fumes.
Good point.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 9, 2016)

kurtak said:


> jason_recliner said:
> 
> 
> > Spot on, Kurt.
> ...



Creepy! Its like your looking in my lab RIGHT NOW...but i dont see you.. 

I appreciate it kurt! I will certainly take your advice and lose the big fan, full time. And, i will put up a big box fan in the window to give me some more umph for negative pressure. 

I will also get off my ass and get my fume hood done in a more timely manner.

I will post a picture of my chuckie cheese crayon drawing(okay, its not THAT bad...BUT, im not an HVAC guy, so my knowledge (obviously) of laminar/turbulent airflow and venturi effect are limited to the bits i have picked up on the forum and in my past experiences)

So, i am more than open to all the constructive critisicm... Mainly because i know none smarter than on this forum.. I know a little bit about alot...but, i certainly dont know it all... But with the collective minds here.. ...well... I know were pretty damn close (to knowing it all)

On this rock, i shall build my church


Platdigger...that was my thoughts initially too... But, it is very hard to keep my big garage door and walk in door opened juuuust right sometimes, so that the box fans do my bidding... 

My solution....stop being a bum and making excuses...make a damn hood... So, monday i will be making it... Im going to the store as soon as i find my pants, cigs, and coffee


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> My solution....stop being a bum and making excuses...make a damn hood... So, monday i will be making it... Im going to the store as soon as i find my pants, cigs, and coffee



I like this attitude can we keep him guys? 8) 8)


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 9, 2016)

spaceships said:


> Topher_osAUrus said:
> 
> 
> > My solution....stop being a bum and making excuses...make a damn hood... So, monday i will be making it... Im going to the store as soon as i find my pants, cigs, and coffee
> ...



Well, i think my wife already owns me...but, im sure she would gladly let anyone temporarily rent me... Until she needs to eat...or her car fixed...or phone...or computer....snything electrical...or anything requiring thought or effort... So, like a 30 min rental period.. Lol.

But, yes, as soon as i get home i will be posting pictures of my doodles. Just so you guys can (constructively) tear it down before i waste time building it up


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 9, 2016)

...because i know all of you are waiting on bated breath.. Here is my "schematic" of my fume hood (not to scale...obviously, but i had to add that...just in case..)

So, for the schematic pic...labeled accordingly... 
A) is my venturi or eductor?
A1)better?
A2)best?
B)the second one where i would like the end line of my scrubber/vac pumo to go
C)vac pump
D)scrubber/still/nox recycler
E)collapse hose to sit stop of open beaker reactions to capture nox
F) old chimney outlet where the last to live here had his wood stove
G)wood framing that will be epoxy coated
H) glass sliding doors
I)open beaker reaction
J)..i dont remember why J was relevant
K)squirrel box fan to create negative pressure
L)retainer lip to hold glass doors
M) will be(isnt on this pic) a raised face to hold spills
N) hot plate
O)..no o...

"Venturi designs" were just that, that i got off the interwebs,..granted, they were for high pressure washers(i think), the principles remain(i think..?)

So... Hit me with some knowledge fella's.. Help me not make costly mistakes.... Save my life and lungs... Because im not sure my wife would have the foresight to get on here for help should i kill myself with nox gas or pgm salts


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 9, 2016)

That venturi drawing page had horrible focus, and my wifes legs in it... Lets try that again

And i know between E snd A (specifically where the scrubber enters the equation), there needs to be precise bends to not cause an issue with the air flow... Woild it be beneficisl to have a venturi there too(i just have a line in on my drawing because, well, my drawing sucks, and i dont know if this plan is even moderately feasible)

Anxiously awaiting you gentlemen to grant me insight


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2016)

I was going to go down the venturi route originally. In the end, when looking at the financial options I went for 200mm piping and a commercial lab extractor fan. Why? Because I realised the sheer volume of air that I had to move from a large cabinet to be sure it was cycling fast enough. The fan cost me $700 but runs at 240v with a wattage of only 230w so it's cheap to run and has an excess of airflow that allows me to add a second smaller cabinet or possibly a hood. 

It also has the relevant power for me to run a proper external scrubbing system which is currently under construction. I'm not generating enough nox to require one by law, ( to use Lou's wise words "Jon do you want neighbours complaining about clouds of brown smoke coming from your workshop, and the cops assuming you're a terrorist? No, I thought not") as I do a fair amount of sealed reactions however it's better to be safe than sorry. The hard part about getting the scrubber system sorted is getting the flow volumes right though and I'm working through that right now. Doing it properly doesn't appear to be a budget option. 

Jon


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 9, 2016)

Spaceships, jon?, i came to that realization very early on, that, the right way, is usually the most initially taxing as far as money goes...but, in the end, its paying off exponentially..

Whats irons sig line say? Stingy man pays the most?... Well, i dont want that to be me... But, i also dont want to blow money on my crack-pot ideas, if there is no tangible way to do it. I know it must be possible... But, the question becomes, how difficult for a backyard refiner? Im a pretty apt man (or at least id like to think so) so i could figure it out eventually, but i want more input like yours, of those who have tried and either failed or succeeded... And why


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## Grelko (Apr 9, 2016)

alexxx said:


> I never put music while working in the lab. I get paranoid every time. Did the blower from the hood just stopped? Did a beaker just cracked?



Sometimes I'll listen to music or watch TV when working with scrap metal "washers etc.", but not when using chemicals.



Barren Realms 007 said:


> You really need to stop smoking around the chemicals and go outside and smoke. Reguardless of the good exiting air flow. 8)



I agree with this, since you could have drops of chemicals on your gloves, which could easily get on the cigarette and into your mouth.



spaceships said:


> I like this attitude can we keep him guys? 8) 8)



Slightly bad language, talking about drugs, I'm not a moderator so I can't say much about it, but he does post decent information on here.


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2016)

Grelko don't quote me and miss out the context of what I was saying because it paints an incorrect picture of what I was saying. My comment was based upon his attitude to getting up and sorting his fume cabinet out, and it's 100% clear in my post.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 9, 2016)

Nicotine and alcohol are drugs. As is marijuana. But, they are all legal (not in all states yet, but medical is in majority now)
But, i will censor vices out, from here on out. Not my goal to ruffle feathers, but to just have a "general chat"

Sorry i have offended you friend, it was not my intent.


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## Deano (Apr 10, 2016)

I am amazed how often people want to reinvent the wheel but with what they see as a better or cheaper version.

When it comes to extractor fans any reinvention is futile, there are so many in use that a lot of time and experience has been used to optimise them.

There are a lot of manufacturers of these systems and anything which came onto the market as a noticeable improvement would very quickly be adopted by all makers.

The best and cheapest way to get a decent reliable extraction system is to contact some of the firms who specialise in installing fume cupboards.

These firms have stocks of used systems which they will sell to you cheaply, they are cheap because they were removed when new systems were installed on a time basis and so cost the installers only the removal time.

Deano


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 10, 2016)

Deano said:


> I am amazed how often people want to reinvent the wheel but with what they see as a better or cheaper version.
> 
> When it comes to extractor fans any reinvention is futile, there are so many in use that a lot of time and experience has been used to optimise them.
> 
> ...




I didnt mean for my posts to get misconstrued as me reinventing the wheel... I can be arrogant, but i dont think i have that much hubris.

I just wanted to make something myself, with what i have and can easily get. And use everything over as much as possible... My escaping nox gas...my squirrel fan...my brain... But, there are some things that i understand are best bought


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## Harold_V (Apr 10, 2016)

Hmmmm.
I wonder. 
Have you guys lost sight of the fact that some folks who read this board may not be a friend?
I noted the ongoing discussion of "rolling your own", although not necessarily about tobacco. 
While smoking weed is legal in some states, it isn't legal (in the US) according to the federal government, so if you choose to not follow the law, it is my opinion that you shouldn't be discussing it openly, as that may draw the wrong attention to this board, creating a suspicion of management being in support of breaking the law. 
To be perfectly clear, we do NOT encourage such actions, and it has nothing to do with personal opinion-----it's a matter of attempting to keep the board on topic and law abiding. We don't need the wrong kind of attention drawn to the board. 

I'm leaving the thread as is, but I am suggesting (if you get my drift) that you drop the discussion of illegal activities. 

When I started refining, I did so with a fan in the window, but removing internal air, not blowing air in. It was one of the most valuable refining experiences of my life, as it lead me to understand the need for a *FILTERED* fume hood, to say nothing of the gross difference between working in a hood as opposed to removing random air. 

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 10, 2016)

Harold_V said:


> Hmmmm.
> I wonder.
> Have you guys lost sight of the fact that some folks who read this board may not be a friend?
> I noted the ongoing discussion of "rolling your own", although not necessarily about tobacco.
> ...



People think that just because you are moving air in a room things are working and being done properly. That is not the case all of the time.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 10, 2016)

Dually noted Harold. 
Please forgive my naivete, sometimes i forget that Noxx is Canadian, and such things are frowned upon no matter they are.
I apologized to Grelko, and will not pose the same indiscretion again.

And yes, i truly need to have a filtered air unit. As dusting while incinerating outside is a real problem in need of being addressed.


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## Anonymous (Apr 10, 2016)

When in essence Frank it's about constantly _changing_ the air in the room. Fresh in, rubbish out. The cabinet concentrates and defines the area within which the bad things are produced and is the first set of air to be removed, replenishing from the room which in turn replenishes from clean air outside. At any rate that's my understanding of it, and my airflow goes from one end of the building to the other permanently. If there's something I'm missing then naturally I am all ears and eager to learn. 8) 

Jon


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## UncleBenBen (Apr 10, 2016)

I do electrical work at a place that has hundreds of research labs. Every bio and fume hood has an alarmed pressure sensor. Most of the labs have alarmed pressure sensors. The labs that handle the most dangerous stuff like anthrax, Ebola and the like, have the same digital sensors that all report to a constantly monitored central command center. They also have a good old fashioned cheap manometer next to the entry doors. 

It's something that I can guarantee you that everybody that enters such labs will look at before they open the door.

My lab will have one. They are easy to read and install. If it's not showing negative pressure you know before entering that something is wrong.


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## Grelko (Apr 10, 2016)

spaceships said:


> Grelko don't quote me and miss out the context of what I was saying because it paints an incorrect picture of what I was saying. My comment was based upon his attitude to getting up and sorting his fume cabinet out, and it's 100% clear in my post.



I didn't mean anything bad by it. I was actually agreeing with you, I like his attitude also. I should have added the part with his response about building a fume hood. I just happened to notice certain responses when this thread went off subject and didn't want anyone to get in trouble for talking about certain things.



Topher_osAUrus said:


> Sorry i have offended you friend, it was not my intent.



No offense taken. I do find that your other thread about Corningware to be very insightful, and the schematics for a fumehood in this thread might even help me, when I get around to building one, so thank you for that information.


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## butcher (Apr 10, 2016)

Some gases or fumes are heavier than air, and will collect at the floor level, some lighter than air will travel to the ceiling.

Air in the corners of a box (your garage) can just circulate the air in these corners, where it may not be pulled by the fan out the window.

Chemical fumes from beakers on one side of the room and the window and fan on the other side can leave many of these fumes remaining in the building, where you are exposed to them, as well as tools or anything else in the building, with these fumes soaking into the building materials, wood, sheet-rock, insulation...

If this is all you have, the window and fan should be at the same level on the shelf, just behind the beakers or vessels that emit fumes, so the fumes are directly pulled out of the room.

I have a hard time saying what I want to, hope this makes at least a little sense.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 11, 2016)

Since this a thread on randomness, yesterday I visited some historic gold mines at [arguably] the first place* in Victoria that gold was discovered, in 1851. So this stuck out at me:



> Some gases or fumes are heavier than air, and will collect at the floor level, some lighter than air will travel to the ceiling.
> 
> Air in the corners of a box (your garage) can just circulate the air in these corners, where it may not be pulled by the fan out the window.


I learned that the Chinese miners of the time dug round mines because it meant that demons could not hide in the corners. It's funny how we white people assume everyone else's belief is make-believe rubbish with no basis in fact. But with just a little translation, and considering the hazards of mines, I'd say they were really onto something.

* No, I'm not allowed to dig there. No, not even use a detector. Yes, I checked.


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## Anonymous (Apr 11, 2016)

No problem Grelko - thanks for the explanation. I dislike text because it can sometimes be so cold!

We're good 8) 

Jon


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## Anonymous (Apr 11, 2016)

butcher said:


> Some gases or fumes are heavier than air, and will collect at the floor level, some lighter than air will travel to the ceiling.
> 
> Air in the corners of a box (your garage) can just circulate the air in these corners, where it may not be pulled by the fan out the window.
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying Butcher, and agree. One of the things I was going to mention to Topher was my preference for non absorbent materials in the structure of the lab. i.e. Brick/block/concrete in preference to wood. Naturally coating any wood in something would help. 

With regards to the airflow, yes leaving open containers that are gassing off outside of a fume cabinet isn't the best idea and of course the density of the respective gasses needs to be considered to avoid making an area of toxic air especially if you are not completely changing the atmosphere in the workspace with your extraction.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 11, 2016)

spaceships said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > Some gases or fumes are heavier than air, and will collect at the floor level, some lighter than air will travel to the ceiling.
> ...




It is a good idea to paint the block wall surfaces to seal them up. The blocks can absorb the fumes and deteriorate the block over time. With the walls painted it slows this down and they can also be washed down easier.


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## Anonymous (Apr 11, 2016)

Yeah. I should have mentioned that, I stupidly assumed people wouldn't need that one spelling out 8) 8)


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 11, 2016)

I will try to remember and address the threads as posted, mukti-quoting is horrible on my phone, and my son stole my laptop and i havent been able to use it in awhile.

Butcher, its hard to tell from the angle of my picturw, but in my totes, i have a layer of cardboard, newspaper, then brick, then ceramic tile to help raise the level of my beakers to close(ish) to window height, as initially, i noticed (without the raise in level) that some gases were fouling up my air.

Grelko, thank you for that. Always good to hear what little i know or have been able to contribute has helped another member in any way...even if its steering them clear of something wrong, or leading them somewhere right.

Jon, i agree, its very hard to feel someones stance, or their voice from words. Thats part of the reason why i (usually dont, but now will) censor myself...curse words are hard for me to omit sometimes as, to me, they are just words...but the level of passion in them...or ire...or happiness, when it context, can be put to paper much easier sometimes (if that makes sense..?)

And, right now. My lab is wood...thats about it... I have a bunch of cermic tile that will be going up and help prevent the soaking of acid fumes... I dont know how possible it would be...but, the idea of making my entire east wall a plank of potassium nitrate doesnt sound fun..(...IS that possible?...Wood ash, soaked in water, then filtered, evaporated, will yield potassium carbonate....so, if nitrates [fumes] get introduced, would that lead to degredation of the fibers making them a nitro-cellulose? Or would it do and be something completely different?)

Once the tile is up, i was either going to go eith a good acid resistant epoxy paint...or, i read on here that a member has had good luck with the truck bed liner spray? Cant recall if it was the real-deal rhino-liner...or as cheap and easy as the "plasti-dip" spray can.

If i forgot someones response, im sorry. I will touch base on it shortly.

Thanks again guys


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## upcyclist (Apr 11, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> ...or, i read on here that a member has had good luck with the truck bed liner spray? Cant recall if it was the real-deal rhino-liner...or as cheap and easy as the "plasti-dip" spray can.


Correct--if we're remembering the same recent conversation, it was Plasti-dip. It's available in several colors--if you get bored you can make your walls a pretty tye-dye pattern


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## 4metals (Apr 11, 2016)

I've seen plywood hoods sprayed with the Rhino product. And I've seen some with a heavy latex paint that lasts if you recoat it when it starts to show signs of erosion.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 11, 2016)

Another option would be some plastic sheets like would be used in a bathroom that can be sprayed and wiped down. Of you can pain the surfaces with a paint that can be sprayed with a spray bottle and wiped down.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 11, 2016)

Upcyclist, 4metals, barren, everyone.
Thank you.

You gentlemen have given me an abundance of ideas of how to better my lab, and myself.

Barren, the plastic sheets you speak of. Do you happen to rememver what mil they were (4, 7, 9 ++?) and are they vinyl? Polypropylene?)

I have some of that plasti dip stuff layign around from when i made my own pinpointer metal detector that i could take into the bottom of a river with me. So, my misses will be pleased that my "money pit hobby" wont need more "mumbo-jumbo" that costs a bunch


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 11, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> Upcyclist, 4metals, barren, everyone.
> Thank you.
> 
> You gentlemen have given me an abundance of ideas of how to better my lab, and myself.
> ...



Not off the top of my head I don't remember. You can probably search online and find information on some. Maybe track down a manufacturer and who they distribute their product through or maybe just check the major stores like Home Depot or Lowe's. I've put up some many years ago and have seen them used in labs and production areas.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 12, 2016)

My first shop/lab space i had some 7 mil polypropylene sheeting i put under my row of 5 gallon buckets. I had like 7 buckets... From 2 batches of ap and ar...(sadly)....for only like 3 lbs of pins,2 lbs of fingers, and 1 lb of pent pro processors. 

One ap bucket spilled a bit when i had a shelf give out and some stuff fell into it. It seemed to handle the acid well, despite its thin-ness.. But, i cleaned it up after just a few minutes. So I wasnt sure how well it would hold up to nitric (or its fumes), as that is a whole new animal. Buy, i know polypropylene is what Harold used to hold his anode slime basket for his silver cell. So that tells me it is moderately resilient to nitric. But...attached pdf is my cause for dilemma, but im sure a D is better than an F...or nothing?

I suppose i could just try what i have left over, whats the worst that could happen...?

-for some reason my phone wasnt wanting to post the whole pdf of this "chemical-resistance-chart.pdf" file, so i took a screenshot, if you really want to find the entirety of it, search what i typed in google, should be the first result.

Edit to add the picture. And fix spelling


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## kurtak (Apr 12, 2016)

4metals said:


> I've seen plywood hoods sprayed with the Rhino product. And I've seen some with a heavy latex paint that lasts if you recoat it when it starts to show signs of erosion.



Forget building your fume hood (cabinet) out of plywood & then coating it with paint &/or Rhino lining --- go to home depot or Lowes & get yourself a sheet of 1/2 inch melamine for the cabinet - one sheet 1/2 inch sheet melamine will build a cabinet 4 foot wide 3 foot high X 2 foot deep - & then get a half sheet of 1/4 inch for the door & cut a hole in the center & glue a plexiglass window to it with silicone (or use double sided tape)

Pic of my cabinet :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=19965&hilit=fume+hood#p205097

Melamine is a "hard" smooth surface that is both chem resistant & fire retardant (almost like a thin ceramic coating) so is "much" easier to wipe up spills on the bottom &/or spatters on walls then the "rough" surface of painted &/or Rhino lined plywood --- also - although melamine is "somewhat" porous (if you leave a spill set on it for an "extended" period of time) it is no where near as porous as paint or Rhino lining 

If you already bought plywood to build your hood (cabinet) put it to the side & use it for making shelving &/or something else - go buy melamine for our hood (cabinet) --- you will be glad you did :!: 

Close up pic of melamine ---------

Kurt

Edit to add; - the ugly (& corroded) stirrer hot plate you see in the pic (close up melamine) came to me that way as part of a package of used equipment I picked up - I have 3 more that look even worse but they still all work & I got them dirt cheep


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## kurtak (Apr 12, 2016)

Topher

in the second pic of your hood (cabinet) drawings you show having a "vacuum" scrubber hooked into your fan "blower" hood "vent" line --- that will NOT work :!: 

They are two "different" systems - one works on vacuum - the other works on forced air

It wont work for the same reason that I pointed out having two window fans draw air out of the lab & one fan blowing air into the lab doesn't work

They are two different systems that work on two different principles & trying to hook them both into the same system will only cause one to work against the other

The vacuum scrubber is used to scrub fumes from a full blown reaction in a reaction vessel that is hooked in to the "closed" vacuum system of the scrubber & it works "independent" of the hood forced air system --- it deals with scrubbing the "large" volume of fumes produced during full blown reactions

The "forced air" hood system is used for dealing with low level fumes (&/or secondary fumes) when you are working on prepping to start reactions &/or working with solutions after the reactions are done & needs a different type scrubber

drawing is nowhere near to scale - just a quick draw to show basic concept of the two "independent" scrubber systems

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 12, 2016)

Platdigger said:


> I can understand the concept of positive and negative air pressure in a room but, would not the amount of air entering a room have to equal the amount exiting at some point?
> I mean if air is being put (blown) in, the amount of pressure depends on how much restriction there is to the air going out.
> And visa versa, depending on how much restriction there was to air being aloud to enter a room when it, air, is being pulled out determines how much negative pressure or vacuum in the room.
> So in other words, the pressure, positive or negative can vary, but the amount of air entering and exiting a room will have to be equal at some point.



Platdigger

per the above underlined --- not as long as you maintain a greater volume of air (CFM) moving out then is allowed to move in --- in other words - as long as the fan/blower on your hood is moving more air out then is allowed to vent in the pressure will maintain a "constant" negative pressure --- in other words there needs to be a balance wherein the air being moved out by the hood blower/fan is greater (at least somewhat) then the air coming in - whether the air is coming in through deliberate placed inlet vents - or cracks in the walls (un-taped joints in the wall sheeting) &/or around unsealed door/window frames

As long as the hood blower/fan is running (& its CFM is greater then air allowed in) it will maintain a constant negative pressure in the room - the pressure will only equalize if/when you turn the hood fan/blower off --- which is why I always say to leave your hood run 24/7 --- something like opening the lab door will "change" the pressure (to ether less negative or even to positive) but only momentarily (as long as the door is open) & for the "short" time it takes the blower to catch back up to its maintained negative pressure 

my hood was turned on a little over 2 years ago after I first built & installed it - & it has NEVER been turned off since --- I have tools & metal in my lab that have been in the lab for that same 2 years & there is little or NO sign of corrosion & I put pieces of PH paper at different places in the lab - they (PH paper) can sit there for days & not change color (in fact I have more trouble with tools outside the lab corroding in the summer due to humidity - then I have with corrosion inside the lab) 

And my hood is not all that great concerning CFM - it wont handle fumes from full blown reactions unless I close the door on it (which is why I run full blown reactions through my closed vacuum scrubber system) --- but its good enough to handle low level fuming & keep the room "clear" because the negative pressure is maintained by NEVER shutting the hood blower off

Kurt


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## Anonymous (Apr 12, 2016)

kurtak said:


> my hood was turned on a little over 2 years ago after I first built & installed it - & it has NEVER been turned off since --- I have tools & metal in my lab that have been in the lab for that same 2 years & there is little or NO sign of corrosion & I put pieces of PH paper at different places in the lab - they (PH paper) can sit there for days & not change color (in fact I have more trouble with tools outside the lab corroding in the summer due to humidity - then I have with corrosion inside the lab)
> 
> Kurt



Kurt my thanks. I am so glad that you said this. Like you, I have mine running constantly and there is absolutely no corrosion anywhere.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 12, 2016)

Kurt, you and your posts are more than helpful... You have exponentially trimmed my learning curve (and price point)... I will look into the material you mentioned and save the wood and plasti dip for making other things needed around the shop.

I didnt show it, but i have a drawing of your fume hood from your linked pic as well.. I want to have a hood...and a scrubber/recycling system for whenever i use anything with nitrix, as it is INCREDIBLY expensive here for me... LIKE 1.25/mL.. 
I, for that reason (amongst others) want to keep every bit of nox gas i get/have.

In a perfect world, i would have my lab segregated completely from the garage side, with its own air...a fume hood hooked up to my UPS that has a removable/changeable filter to get dusted materials and escaping volatile values. ...and a scrubber to catch every molecule of NOx...

In a perfect world.. Im on the road right now(..passenger, not driving) so i dont have a pic of how im thinking of this now, but, kurt, i think it would be identical to your drawing, with the only exception being that there is aforementioned filter before the sodium hydroxide neutralizing agent... And maybe in the scrubbing train have the first of 4 evac flasks be empty to catch "ar-slimes"

Thoughts?


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