# 1st Silver Cell Run



## Tndavid (May 5, 2017)

150g/liter electrolyte. This is less than 24hr growth. Amps are holding steady at 1.5 and volts at 3.5.. I have approximately 7 kilos to refine for a nice gentleman. I love it!! Thanks yet again to this wonderful community for your plethora of knowledge...


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## Topher_osAUrus (May 5, 2017)

8) 
Lookin good, but you have got QUITE a long way to go!


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## Tndavid (May 5, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> 8)
> Lookin good, but you have got QUITE a long way to go!


Indeed!!!


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## Palladium (May 6, 2017)

14 kg X 2.2 = 30.8 lbs
30.8 lbs X 16 oz = 492.8 oz
492.8 oz X 28 grams = 13798.4 grams
13798.4 grams X .925 ( sterling ) = 12763.52 grams
12783.52 grams / 6 grams hr = 2130.58 hrs ( 4 grams per amp hr deposited X 1.5 amps an hr input )
2130.58 / 24 hrs = 88.77 days

*88.77days*


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## g_axelsson (May 6, 2017)

:lol: 


Palladium said:


> 14 kg X 2.2 = 30.8 lbs
> 30.8 lbs X 16 oz = 492.8 oz
> 492.8 oz X 28 grams = 13798.4 grams


I must reveal that I don't understand the imperial system and think it is overly complicated... This is how we do it in metric land.
14 kg = 14000 g (k is short for kilo, meaning a thousand, just saying...)
Maybe you should check your calculations... :wink: 
Especially if you felt it was precise enough to add that 0.4g at the end. :mrgreen: 


Palladium said:


> 13798.4 grams X .925 ( sterling ) = 12763.52 grams
> 12783.52 grams / 12 grams hr = 1063.62 hrs ( 8 grams per amp hr deposited X 1.5 amps an hr input )
> 1063.62 / 24 hrs = 44.32 days
> 
> *44.32 days*


The time seems to be in the right ballpark so it will take some time.

Göran


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## Palladium (May 6, 2017)

That was compensating for the time drift variable of the international date line and the coefficient of the earths rotational spin deviation! 

:mrgreen:


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## Tndavid (May 6, 2017)

Ralph is that calculation for 14 kilos or 7?


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## IdahoMole (May 6, 2017)

And I thought one amp plated out 4 grams per hour, not 8?


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## Palladium (May 6, 2017)

14 kg


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## Palladium (May 6, 2017)

Wow! sorry about that! I'm in between two separate things and number are getting blurry!
Yep, 4 grams per amp hour! so at 1.5 amps that's 6 grams per hr. so double that time to 88.64 days! 
I'll fix the math above!


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## Palladium (May 6, 2017)

At 3 amp/hr the math was correct!


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## nickvc (May 6, 2017)

Ralph as the OP only has 7 kilos your first answer was correct :shock: :mrgreen:


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## Tndavid (May 6, 2017)

Thanks guys. I'm glad yall posted some numbers. Now I can continue exercise my brain. Thanks again


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## Palladium (May 6, 2017)

nickvc said:


> Ralph as the OP only has 7 kilos your first answer was correct :shock: :mrgreen:



All of your post have been reported to moderators! lol

at 14 kg :arrow: 

14 kg X 2.2 = 30.8 lbs
30.8 lbs X 16 oz = 492.8 oz
492.8 oz X 28 grams = 13798.4 grams
13798.4 grams X .925 ( sterling ) = 12763.52 grams
12783.52 grams / 6 grams hr = 2130.58 hrs ( 4 grams per amp hr deposited X 1.5 amps an hr input )
2130.58 / 24 hrs = 88.77 days

*88.77days*

For Goran :mrgreen: 
at 7 kg :arrow: 

7 kg = 7000 grams
7000 grams X .925 ( sterling ) = 6475 grams
6475 grams / 6 grams hr = 1079 ( 4 grams per amp hr deposited X 1.5 amps an hr input )
1079 grams / 24 hrs = 44.96 days


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## IdahoMole (May 6, 2017)

Ralph was right the first time, just for the wrong reason......... :lol:


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## g_axelsson (May 6, 2017)

Yay!!! Finally someone made a post just for me! :mrgreen: 

I'm honored, Ralph.

... but still you manage to start with 14000 grams and going back and forth to imperial it suddenly is just 13798.4 grams. That's a loss of 1.44% just in the math... :lol: 
I know we talk about losses in every process but this is the first time I've seen it in the calculations too.

:wink: 

Göran


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## Palladium (May 6, 2017)

So two wrongs do make a right! 

Goran :arrow: I only have claim a 98.55% accountability ! :wink:


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## goldsilverpro (May 6, 2017)

I'd like to put my 2 cents in but I first need to know the solution volume. Also, what are you running? Sterling or what? I know Ralph assumed sterling and so that's what I'll assume and I'll try to be more realistic and say the Ag only runs 90% . The reason I need the volume is that, when the copper builds up to, say, 80-100g/liter, the old solution will need to be scrapped and replaced with a fresh solution. Otherwise, the Ag will be contaminated with Cu. Since you have 600-700 grams of Cu in that 7kg, you will probably have to do that several times, depending on the volume.

For now, I might mention that those hour figures assume 24 hour operation. I haven't run a SS container before but, with a standard Thum cell, the crystal had to be removed every 4 hours or it would short out, probably burn the bag, and then dump all the anode slime into the solution/crystal. When it does that, you clean everything up and start over. If this is similar and you want a 24 hr operation, you'd better get a cot, sleep next to the cell, and set your alarm at 4 hr intervals. I have done that before. If the anode to cathode distance is less than 4-5/8", you might have to harvest the crystals more often than that.

If you only want to run the cell 8 hrs a day, 5 days a week, it would take 44 x 4.2 = 185 days total, a little over 6 mos.of 5 day weeks. Correcting this further, since sterling is about 10% Cu, and Cu dissolves at only 1.185g/amp-hour, the sterling alloy will theoretically dissolve at the rate of (4.025 x .9) + (1.185 x .1) = 37.4 g/A-Hr. However, since there is always resistance in the system, nothing in electrolysis ever works out at 100% efficiency and you probably can't count on more than 3.3 g/A-Hr with sterling. With a 40 hour week, that would add another 37 days, or 222 days total.

Think about a larger cell. With a 3 gallon cell and a 25A rectifier, that would cut the time down to about 10 or 11, 8hr days. Think about dissolving/cementing and then run the 99% silver through the cell. It would only take 2-3 gallons of nitric. That could eliminate having to change solutions at all during the entire job. Do you have a decent furnace?

I ended up giving you about 6 cents worth but I still would like to know your present solution volume.

Look before you leap and don't bite off more than you can chew. I'm full of those things.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

Hey GSP, my solution volume is 2.5 liters. I will be running the cell 24hrs/day. The silver is I would say closer to 97-98%. And I will definitely keep an eye on the crystals to make sure they don't reach the anode basket. The cell is running off a 10a rectifier. I do not have a furnace. And I really appreciate your 6 cents. Thank you


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2017)

With 2.5 liters, you could run about 5 amps. If, at that amperage, the voltage is above 4V, that is often an indication of poor electrode balance or connections. What is the surface area of the anode facing the cathode? Ideally, for 5 amps, you should have between 14 in2 and 28 in2 of surface area facing the anode.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

Here's some quick measurements GSP.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

I've held it constantly at 3.5v with 1.5amps.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

It would be cool if I could bump it up somewhat to speed the process. But that being said I definitely do not want an impure product nor do I want an immature depletion of my electrolyte. I want to give this nice gentleman the purest product I can.


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## Palladium (May 7, 2017)

Looking at the picture it doesn't seem like your bowl is full enough. If the bowl isn't full enough there is a large percentage of you anode silver that is not submerged and you are loosing amps because of it. If you will fill the bowl almost to the top, above that little ring you see pressed into the bowl, the amps will more than likely double leading to a faster finish time.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

Ok I'll make up some more electrolyte and fill it some more.


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2017)

It would be easier to just dilute it with distilled water. You have a lot of silver in the solution, much more than I've ever started with.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

goldsilverpro said:


> It would be easier to just dilute it with distilled water. You have a lot of silver in the solution, much more than I've ever started with.


With that being said GSP, what would be the best amperage for the highest efficiency with the setup I currently have? Or should I safe play and keep it at 1.5/3.5? Thank you for the tips and information. Greatly appreciated.


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2017)

Tndavid said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > It would be easier to just dilute it with distilled water. You have a lot of silver in the solution, much more than I've ever started with.
> ...



I don't know. I think the high voltage is due to low anode surface area. However, I haven't seen the portion of the anode that is facing the cathode. Like I said earlier, I have never run a cell in a stainless container. Ralph is probably right. I would guess that when you bring the solution level up, the added anode surface area will lower the voltage, somewhat, for a given amperage.

After raising the solution level, raise the voltage to 4.0 and tell us what the resulting amperage is. I have run cells at 4v before, and even higher. Actually, though, it's the amperage that's the most important. A high voltage is usually an indicator that the electrode system isn't maximized or there are poor connections. It could also happen if the wire or clips are too small and heat up.

Also, increase the amps to 5.0 momentarily and report the voltage. In a way, the cathode is the most important electrode because that is where the silver deposits. The cathode current density is quite low because of the relatively huge surface area of the bowl compared with the anode. For that reason, I doubt if increasing the amps to 5.0 will affect the purity. The purity is mainly affected when the Cu in solution gets too high (say, 80g/l) or the silver in solution gets too low (say, 35g/l). You must keep track of the metals you're putting through the cell and remember that for each gram of Cu that dissolves, 3.4 grams of silver will be removed from the solution by deposition. Therefore, the Cu will increase and the silver will decrease.

How do you know the silver is 97-98%? Have you assayed it? That's an unusual number for silver. From what type operation was this scrap generated. You can PM me with that information if you want it kept confidential.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

At 4v I'm bouncing between 1.9a and 2a.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

At 5a I was punching 9.4v.


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2017)

Ralph.

I think it's the anode - too small surface area. You're the stainless guy. so what's your opinion about this? What voltage do you run at? What's the highest voltage you've used with no problems? Do you run shot or bars?

Tndavid,

In any case, I would raise it to at least 4.0V and probably 5.0V.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

Ok Chris. I'll run it at 4v unless Ralph can give me more insight on a higher voltage. Yes the anode basket isn't that big. 2.75x2.75x .5 in. Of course the .5 in is how far it is submerged in the electrolyte. Thank you again Chris..


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## Topher_osAUrus (May 7, 2017)

I thought anything over 4.3 or 4.7v would codeposit copper, regardless of the concentration in the electrolyte?


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2017)

The problem I see with shot is that the current follows the path of least resistance. This is usually determined by distance. The shortest distance is generally the path of least resistance. Therefore the points sticking out on the outer surface of the shot absorb the greatest portion of the current. This, in essence, reduces the effective anode surface area - it's not a x times y proposition. With a bar, it is an x times y proposition.


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> I thought anything over 4.3 or 4.7v would codeposit copper, regardless of the concentration in the electrolyte?



Where did you learn this, specifically?


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

So would it be better if I just cut the bar up in chunks and put them in my anode basket? The full bar will not fit.


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2017)

Were it me, I would change the basket so it would adapt to small bars. BTW, what are you using as anode bags?


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

goldsilverpro said:


> Were it me, I would change the basket so it would adapt to small bars. BTW, what are you using as anode bags?


Will do as soon as I run the shot I have. I'm using muslin cloth.


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## Palladium (May 7, 2017)

In the beginning i run as high as 5 to 5.5 volts. The volts will come down to about 3.1 - 3.5 after a few hours of running. In the first 24 - 48 hours i don't worry about the high voltage depositing any cu because in the beginning the cu to ag concentration is higher, but as it builds you want to make sure the voltage doesn't go above about 3 - 3.5 volts at most. I would ask the same question as Chris, what type of muslin are you using and how many layers? What I mean is the thread count because it will cause the voltage to rise if it's to tight or restricted, but that usually leads to stringy crystal growth because of the higher voltage and lower amps. I think the problem is going to be the amount of surface submerged below the solution. Is the bottom of your basket cut out or does it just have holes punched in it? I have filled mine almost to the top of the bowl with distilled like GSP pointed out and after running about 24 hours it will evaporate down again. When you add the distilled add just a few ml 5 - 10 ml of nitric acid to it so you have some free nitric.


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## Tndavid (May 7, 2017)

Palladium said:


> In the beginning i run as high as 5 to 5.5 volts. The volts will come down to about 3.1 - 3.5 after a few hours of running. In the first 24 - 48 hours i don't worry about the high voltage depositing any cu because in the beginning the cu to ag concentration is higher, but as it builds you want to make sure the voltage doesn't go above about 3 - 3.5 volts at most. I would ask the same question as Chris, what type of muslin are you using and how many layers? What I mean is the thread count because it will cause the voltage to rise if it's to tight or restricted, but that usually leads to stringy crystal growth because of the higher voltage and lower amps. I think the problem is going to be the amount of surface submerged below the solution. Is the bottom of your basket cut out or does it just have holes punched in it? I have filled mine almost to the top of the bowl with distilled like GSP pointed out and after running about 24 hours it will evaporate down again. When you add the distilled add just a few ml 5 - 10 ml of nitric acid to it so you have some free nitric.


I didn't get the thread count. It's just an undyed from Walmart. Single layer. And there are holes drilled in the bottom and 1/4 in holes in the sides near the bottom. It is filled to within 1/2 in from the top now. And I'll keep that in mind when it evaporates down. I'll run it at 4v tonight and drop it back down to 3.5 in the morning before work.


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## Topher_osAUrus (May 8, 2017)

goldsilverpro said:


> Topher_osAUrus said:
> 
> 
> > I thought anything over 4.3 or 4.7v would codeposit copper, regardless of the concentration in the electrolyte?
> ...



Forgive me, I was wrong. I initially thought I read it on here, posted by one of the senior refiners. But, after searching all last night and this morning for it. The only thing I could find was talk of 3-4v being the optimal voltage for silver. But, higher voltage could deposit palladium if it was a contamination in the electrolyte. No mention of copper deposition though.

I will keep looking for the thread I am thinking of, where the 4.3-4.7v(maybe 4.5v+) was mentioned to be a bit too high. I should have already found it, but my primary laptop got a bath in chocolate milk and is now non functional, so I have to find the right keywords for the search function. Sorry for misleading.


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## g_axelsson (May 8, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> I should have already found it, but my primary laptop got a bath in chocolate milk and is now non functional, so I have to find the right keywords for the search function. Sorry for misleading.


Where did you read about that procedure? It should be aqua regia, chocolate milk will interfere with the acid and create a mess!

:mrgreen: 

Göran


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## Topher_osAUrus (May 8, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Topher_osAUrus said:
> 
> 
> > I should have already found it, but my primary laptop got a bath in chocolate milk and is now non functional, so I have to find the right keywords for the search function. Sorry for misleading.
> ...



:lol: 
You will have to talk to my 2 year old about where he learned that particular technique. It's hard to get a straight answer out of him though, unless it is dealing with puppy dogs or moo cows.


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## goldsilverpro (May 8, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > Topher_osAUrus said:
> ...



In a traditional Thum cell, the anode current density is supposed to be between 25 and 50 amps per square foot (.17 to .34 A/in2) of anode surface area facing the cathode. That would be the bottom of the bars in the basket. If everything is set up properly, that amperage will make the voltage fall between 3 and 4 volts. I'm sure I have mentioned this several times in the past. 

In the 30 gallon cell, there were 27, 3" x 9" anode bars snugged together for an area of about 5 ft2. I ran 240 amps at about 3.6V. That's 8A/gallon at 48 A/ft2. I used a double layer of unbleached muslin from Walmart. The muslin had sizing in it and it took a couple of hours before I was able to get rid of the sizing and get the full 240A. The dissolved sizing didn't affect the production at all. I kept the voltage at about 3.6V during this 2 hr. period. At first, there was zero amperage, but the amps started climbing and I had to keep adjusting the rectifier to 3.6V. When the sizing was gone, I only worried about the amperage.

In my opinion, his cell is not set up properly, in that the anode basket is very undersized. If he tries to run it at a much higher current, I think that the anode dissolving will be less efficient but the cathode deposition will be closer to theoretical. This can deplete the bath of silver. I would make the anode basket about 4.5" in diameter. That would be a surface area of about 16 in2. For maximum current, I always assume about 8 amps/gallon or 5 amps for 2.5 liters. The larger anode surface area show allow for the 5A.


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## Tndavid (May 9, 2017)

Working on the bigger anode basket as we speak. Thanks Chris...


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## goldsilverpro (May 9, 2017)

It may be necessary to use a heavier wire and clips to prevent heating and, therefore, a higher voltage. For 5A, according to this chart, you need at least 16 gauge wire.

https://www.bluesea.com/resources/1437


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## Tndavid (May 9, 2017)

goldsilverpro said:


> It may be necessary to use a heavier wire and clips to prevent heating and, therefore, a higher voltage. For 5A, according to this chart, you need at least 16 gauge wire.
> 
> https://www.bluesea.com/resources/1437


I'll definitely take that into consideration when I change cells. I have checked numerous times with this cell and the wire and clips have remained cool. Thanks again Chris...


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## Tndavid (May 11, 2017)

6 days in and I went ahead and harvested. They look beautiful. The camera doesn't do them justice. Hair over 1 kilo.


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## Palladium (May 11, 2017)

Looks good! 
Let me know if you want to sell them.


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## UncleBenBen (May 12, 2017)

Nice work, hero!  

Looks like your customer will be quite pleased. Now, what, like six more kilos to go? Please do keep us posted!


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## Tndavid (May 12, 2017)

6 more for now lol. Thanks Ben. Hopefully more after that. Working on a bigger cell now. Gonna hopefully go with a 3 gal. Thanks for the offer and compliment Ralph, I'll talk to my buddy. These crystals will serve as my electrolyte for the bigger cell. That way with the bigger anode basket as well, I'll be able to increase production. They are so beautiful. I really wish I could capture that on camera.


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## Tndavid (May 12, 2017)

Next time I'll keep some of the bigger crystals intact as some were probably close of not more to 10 or so grams. And just stunning to look at. 




Edit for grammar error..


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## Tndavid (May 25, 2017)

Got my new anode basket tuned in and we are producing about a kilo every day and a half to two days. Very nice dense beautiful crystals!!


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## g_axelsson (May 25, 2017)

Nice crystals!  

By tuned in, what do you mean? Made it bigger to increase anode area and getting closer to the cathode?

Göran


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## Tndavid (May 25, 2017)

Bigger to increase surface area. Not necessarily to get closer to cathode as they grow pretty quick. And I also ran a couple control test with the new basket, shot vs bar. And the shot did much better.


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## UncleBenBen (May 25, 2017)

Very nice!! Keep up the good work, hero!


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## Tndavid (May 25, 2017)

Thanks guys, I appreciate it...


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## Tndavid (Jun 4, 2017)

1st silver run is complete. Less than 3 weeks acual run time. 7,121 grams total. Very happy customer as well. Thank you guys for you endless fountain of knowledge!!!


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