# I Need a Little Help Please!!!!



## modtheworld44 (Jan 12, 2018)

I got this induction furnace in today.https://www.ebay.com/itm/15KW-High-Frequency-Induction-Heater-Furnace-110-220V-18Kg-40-Lbs-30-100-Khz/182826308639?hash=item2a914c141f:g:nYUAAOSw9TdZ4A~z


I need to know if it has built-in water pump for the water cooling or do I need to provide one.I know I'll have to make my own water tank.The instruction manual is vague at best, so thought I would ask you guys and gals.It is really important for me to get this up and running as soon as possible.
I found one guy(EJ of the anvil) on youtube.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNZkxVRb5Ys&t=256s
I want to say from watching his videos that I need to provide the pump.If some one could help me get this setup I would really be grateful.This is our final testing before I do our up scaling.Thank you in advance.


----------



## Palladium (Jan 13, 2018)

Usually you buy the unit as a base and then you can either pay a premium to have the water cooling system added or either provide your own pump, tank, and heat exchanger with a cooling fan. You will more than likely have to buy your own.


----------



## etack (Jan 13, 2018)

Pretty cool!!!! I need on its a toy I don't yet have

It looks like you need water under pressure. Is that with a pump just using the tap or a suspended water tank using gravity. 

The guy in the video is using it for blacksmithing so he will be using it on more that you will??? dont know but it is said to have protections so you can play with it and not fry it hopefully.

Eric


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 13, 2018)

Palladium said:


> Usually you buy the unit as a base and then you can either pay a premium to have the water cooling system added or either provide your own pump, tank, and heat exchanger with a cooling fan. You will more than likely have to buy your own.



Palladium

You think a 200GPH pump will work,maybe coupled with liquid nitrogen cooled water tank?Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 13, 2018)

You need a pump and some head, as in back pressure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 13, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> You need a pump and some head, as in back pressure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



snoman701

Can you be a bit more detailed please?Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 13, 2018)

modtheworld44 said:


> snoman701 said:
> 
> 
> > You need a pump and some head, as in back pressure.
> ...



Sure...but please take the side off and post pictures of the internals, specifically tracing the water in and out.

My understanding of these is that they do not measure flow of the water, but measure to make sure there is a small amount of pressure there. Most people that use them with a cooling unit are using them with a TIG welding cooler such as the miller coolmate. All it is is a closed system that circulates water through a radiator, but it is a closed system. A closed system will have a small amount of pressure in the lines, and the induction generator measures that to ensure that there is cooling water present. 

So you can operate with nothing but a water line from the faucet, as long as you provide a valve on the discharge line that you can close down slightly to increase the pressure on the induction unit side.

You will want to measure the outgoing water to ensure that the temperature is reasonable, at least below boiling of course. The higher the temperature, the more likely it is to cause deterioration to the copper in the induction unit or your coil.

Next time I'm at the melt shop I'll take pictures of his system so it can all be identified so it makes more sense...but for all extensive purposes right now, if you want to get running, hook a garden hose up to it and put a gate valve on the outgoing side. Close down the gate valve until it operates.

You could very easily set up a small cooling system with a car radiator, or even a heater core and a tank of water. In a perfect world, that water will be deionized, but I really doubt I'll be using DI water on mine when I buy it....just anything clean.


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 13, 2018)

You want to get your coil potted in a refractory as well. It will not only increase your melt capacity considerably by providing some insulation, but also provide a protective cover for the coil. You don't want to tap it on accident as I doubt these small units have ground fault protection. 

I am very interested to see how it works for you though, I'm taking a load to Ohio on Wednesday and hoping to put the proceeds into one of these.


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 13, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> modtheworld44 said:
> 
> 
> > snoman701 said:
> ...



snoman701

Thanks going to go buy the hoses and tee's I need today.The guy in video says for the 110v model you need a dedicated 110v 70a line too?Do they even make a breaker like that?Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 13, 2018)

lol...interesting

well, i always wondered how they were wired. 110 volt and 15 kw is a lot of juice! 

take a picture of that breaker on the back of the machine and post it, as well as the lugs where you put the wires coming in. If you can rewire it for 240 volt, you'd be a lot better off. 

But if it's really 70 amp, you MAY be able to find an 80 amp breaker, it's going to have dual poles, but you only need one pole and the neutral line. This would have you running *I think* 4 gauge wire, which for any length could quickly get more expensive than the induction melter. Might want to look that wire size up or hope unclebenben sees this post, he's an electrical contractor. 

I'd strongly recommend a disconnect if your electrical panel isn't in the same room....but you'll probably have to use a 100 amp disconnect. 70 amps through a single wire is a lot of juice. 70 amps is more than you can reasonably run a plug of any sorts for.


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 13, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> You want to get your coil potted in a refractory as well. It will not only increase your melt capacity considerably by providing some insulation, but also provide a protective cover for the coil. You don't want to tap it on accident as I doubt these small units have ground fault protection.
> 
> I am very interested to see how it works for you though, I'm taking a load to Ohio on Wednesday and hoping to put the proceeds into one of these.



snoman701

The machine comes with to different size coils,each is covered in insulation.There is a grounding post on the back of the machine too.Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 13, 2018)

No, I mean the lugs coming in to the machine from the wall. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 13, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> No, I mean the lugs coming in to the machine from the wall.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



snoman701

Let me see if I got this right.The lugs from wall wire need to be 4 gauge in size?Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 13, 2018)

I think so, but it's honestly hard to tell you without seeing the unit.

See, part of the problem is that the in power doesn't match the out power. In order for it to be "15 kw", 110 volts would need 140 amps of power. At 70 amps, it would correspond with a 240 volt power supply. 

HOWEVER, the chinese clones routinely overestimate power output, without a corresponding increase in input power. 

These are kits at best, but for me, it's worth it to get to know how they function, as I can buy four of these in comparison to one that has support in North America.

So from this end, without a reliable manual, without being able to investigate how it's wired internally, it's really hard to recommend how to set it up...and short of finding other people with the identical unit, it will require waiting until I get one and set it up.

Just to let you know, you will have mosfet failures, and you will have capacitor failures. You best start learning your way around the internals of the machine now, as opposed to later.


----------



## Palladium (Jan 13, 2018)

According to the information i found it should pull 37 amps on a 220 volt circuit. The water pressure needs to be 30 psi at a flow rate of about 60 gph with a temp of about 110 degrees F for 100% duty cycle .


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 13, 2018)

Palladium said:


> According to the information i found it should pull 37 amps on a 220 volt circuit. The water pressure needs to be 30 psi at a flow rate of about 60 gph with a temp of about 110 degrees F for 100% duty cycle .



Palladium

It's a 110v unit and not the 220v.I'm trying not to blow the machine up before I at least get to test my idea.The water part I now know how to do,it's the electrical I'm still confused about.I didn't think it was going to be this difficult to get it up and running.......uuuuuuuhhhhh.Thank you for taking the time to help me,I know your a busy person.



modtheworld44


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Jan 13, 2018)

Looking at the last picture in the eBay listing, the two power lugs look like they are stamped 40A. 8 gauge wire would carry that with a 40 amp breaker. Mod, do you have anything other than the utube video you mentioned that says it needs a 70 amp circuit? Maybe he's being over conservative?

Dave


----------



## Palladium (Jan 13, 2018)

According to everything i read it will run 220.
http://jinlaiem.en.made-in-china.com/product/qKpmvkfUhecH/China-High-Frequeny-15kw-Induction-Heater-Melting-Furnace-JL-15KW-.html


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 13, 2018)

Anything more detailed in terms of suggestions will require photos of your specific machine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 13, 2018)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Looking at the last picture in the eBay listing, the two power lugs look like they are stamped 40A. 8 gauge wire would carry that with a 40 amp breaker. Mod, do you have anything other than the utube video you mentioned that says it needs a 70 amp circuit? Maybe he's being over conservative?
> 
> Dave



FrugalRefiner

I was just on the phone with shark asking him if that stamp meant 40A,then clicked in to see what you and palladium have posted.Thank you for the double confirmation.I should have this baby up and running in the next couple of hours,going to home depot.Thank yall for all the help.It really means alot guy's.



modtheworld44


----------



## Palladium (Jan 13, 2018)

How much will you be melting and for what period of time?
If i remember from what i read at 100% duty cycle that thing will generate about 300,000 btu's of heat that will need to be dissipated to stay below the operating parameters. It does say that it has a built in shut down to stop over heating from what i read.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Jan 13, 2018)

modtheworld44 said:


> FrugalRefiner said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at the last picture in the eBay listing, the two power lugs look like they are stamped 40A. 8 gauge wire would carry that with a 40 amp breaker. Mod, do you have anything other than the utube video you mentioned that says it needs a 70 amp circuit? Maybe he's being over conservative?
> ...


Don't do anything based on what I said! I was mainly making an observation about the picture. I'm *not* an electrician. Do not rely on my speculation.

Dave


----------



## Lou (Jan 14, 2018)

Those really produce more like 8 kW power, if even.
I have used just that same unit. You can melt up to a kilo of Pt if the heavens and all align and a winning powerball ticket is in your immediate future.

In reality, expect to be winding a different coil for different jobs. 

As for cooling...unless you use it all day, use a 55 gallon drum of tap water and a jet pump from a home hardware store. Worked for me.


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 14, 2018)

Lou said:


> Those really produce more like 8 kW power, if even.
> I have used just that same unit. You can melt up to a kilo of Pt if the heavens and all align and a winning powerball ticket is in your immediate future.
> 
> In reality, expect to be winding a different coil for different jobs.
> ...



Lou

Will a regular 110v 15-20a dedicated breaker work for this machine? or Do I need the 8-2 gauge wire run from 110v 30-40a breaker? Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 14, 2018)

I don't know how much more clear I can say it. If you wire this up without understanding whether it's prepared for 110 volt or 220 volt, you run the risk of at minimum damaging the machine. I've spent my fair share of time working on Chinese import project machines over the last fifteen years. You should not expect anything to be logical or make sense. I've done a reasonable amount of research on these, and the quality is reported to be all over the map, with very little consistency between distributors. 

Personally, I would not put 240 volts to this if it was labeled as a 110v machine, without disconnecting everything and measuring voltage out from the transformer, and ensuring that it is correct to match up to the component it plugs in to. 

The one that Lou has was purchased for around $5000 by a mutual friend, about five years ago. The price has come down considerably, but that same machine still costs around $3500 from the same distributor. It may have (and likely has) considerably better parts than the one sold for $900 on Ebay. Further, the quality of these machines varies wildly between those sourced by american distributors that offer post purchase support (such as the case in Lou's), and those that are just sold by drop shipping distributors on American soil (which seems to be the case in yours)

You need to learn about your specific machine, and what it has inside of it, not what similar machines have, as they may not be the same. You will, at some point be doing repairs on it. This is a promise.

For what it's worth, a 40 amp breaker on 240 volts is providing 9.6 kW maximum input, and after losses, as Lou explains, you'll get a max around 7-8 kW at the coil. A 20 amp breaker on 110 volt provides a maximum of 2.2 kW input, output would be pretty low. So no, a 20 A breaker on 110 volt will not suffice.


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 14, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> I don't know how much more clear I can say it. If you wire this up without understanding whether it's prepared for 110 volt or 220 volt, you run the risk of at minimum damaging the machine. I've spent my fair share of time working on Chinese import project machines over the last fifteen years. You should not expect anything to be logical or make sense. I've done a reasonable amount of research on these, and the quality is reported to be all over the map, with very little consistency between distributors.
> 
> Personally, I would not put 240 volts to this if it was labeled as a 110v machine, without disconnecting everything and measuring voltage out from the transformer, and ensuring that it is correct to match up to the component it plugs in to.
> 
> ...




snoman701

It is not a 220v unit,I just need to know how to hook the wires to the machine and what orientation the ground ,hot and neutral wires are connected to which lug posts.I'm going with 8-2 wire 125v outlet and plug from machine,breaker is single post 20a.Wire is white,black and bare copper.I really need to have this hooked up and running in the next 3 hours.Here some pictures.Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## UncleBenBen (Jan 14, 2018)

The pics in the eBay ad show a 2 pole breaker built in to the machine. That's a pretty good indication that it will run on 220v. 

Ohm's Law says watts÷volts=amps.
15000w÷220v=68.2 amps.

If that's wrong and it is indeed a 120v unit, the math comes to 125 amps. That's more than the load rating of the main panel in most houses, on one circuit.

I would take Lou's words as gold and figure around half the stated kW. Then wire in the feed based on that. Something that many who do electric work don't realize is that a circuit breaker's job isn't to protect the device from over current, it is there to protect the conductors that run from the breaker to the device.

Nevermind most of that, Jerry. Can you post some brighter pics real quick?


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 14, 2018)

modtheworld44 said:


> snoman701 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how much more clear I can say it. If you wire this up without understanding whether it's prepared for 110 volt or 220 volt, you run the risk of at minimum damaging the machine. I've spent my fair share of time working on Chinese import project machines over the last fifteen years. You should not expect anything to be logical or make sense. I've done a reasonable amount of research on these, and the quality is reported to be all over the map, with very little consistency between distributors.
> ...


Good...hook it up and get it goin.

8 gauge wire will keep you from setting your house on fire as long as the 20a breaker trips.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shark (Jan 14, 2018)

Not sure this will help, but from what I can make out, these are all designed around the electrical systems used in other countries, not the U.S. standard. If I understood the videos Jerry linked to, then the double breaker is actually two separate 110's. One operates the front panel and controls while the other actually operates the unit itself. Even then I am not sure it makes much difference. By converting them to 220v, you have the problem that the front panel is still 110v powered, hence the diagram for cutting one of the wires inside. 

Anyhow, I think Jerry is now on the right path somewhat of wiring it straight to 110v. My thought would be to connect straight to the main power below the meter, and use a 75-100 amp breaker type throw switch box dedicated to the furnace. In that case I would use a 4 gauge wire, especially if the distance was much over 10-15 feet from breaker to machine. As he is going to try it with 8 gauge wire and a 20amp breaker, I think it will throw the breaker pretty often. But I am no electrician and anything I work on with electricity ends up "biting" me more often than not. Luckily, most of my electrical work has been on low voltage/low amp systems. 

Yep, better pictures. The lighting in that dungeon leaves much to be desired, :lol:

I really want to see if this thing will work.


----------



## UncleBenBen (Jan 14, 2018)

Shark said:


> then the double breaker is actually two separate 110's.



Yes, the two separate 110v legs of that breaker are what phase together for the 220v circuit. The machine is just using each 110v leg for separate functions instead of using one leg and a neutral for both.



Shark said:


> By converting them to 220v, you have the problem that the front panel is still 110v powered, hence the diagram for cutting one of the wires inside.



I didn't see that diagram, but it sounds more like cutting that wire would be converting it from 220v to 110v. Leaving it at 220v would be much more efficient.

On a 20 amp breaker he can just use #12 wire. The breaker will trip before it's able to heat up the wire.


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 14, 2018)

UncleBenBen said:


> Shark said:
> 
> 
> > then the double breaker is actually two separate 110's.
> ...



UncleBenBen


Thank you for coming to my rescue sir,here is the pictures you need.I await your instruction.Thank you so very much in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## UncleBenBen (Jan 14, 2018)

Jerry, do you or Shark have a pic or link to the wiring diagram that was mentioned?


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 14, 2018)

UncleBenBen said:


> Jerry, do you or Shark have a pic or link to the wiring diagram that was mentioned?



UncleBenBen

Here you go.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0le4PK1sO8U




modtheworld44


----------



## UncleBenBen (Jan 14, 2018)

Just talked with Mod. I helped him get set up on a 40 amp 110v feed. He will will have it up and running soon.
Hopefully that will give him all the juice he needs. Going higher would have cost quite a bit more on the front end.

If all else fails, the wife and I usually head out in his direction for our anniversary in March and I'll see if I can swing by and rewire his machine for 220v.

That should at least make my Mrs. happy!


----------



## Shark (Jan 14, 2018)

UncleBenBen 

I just spoke with Jerry and he explained your idea. I like it, but I didn't know you could do it that way. Hopefully tomorrow evening there will be some good news from him.


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 14, 2018)

Thank you!!!!

UncleBenBen

Bring what ever you want melted when you come to chattanooga,it's on the house for the life of the machine.You have made a new friend today sir.



I want to Thank everyone else who contributed to this thread as well.Thanks for making that call to UncleBenBen and getting him to read the forum.(I owe you one T).



modtheworld44


----------



## UncleBenBen (Jan 14, 2018)

No problem, my man. You've got my number if you have any more questions.

I just want to see that puppy go! :mrgreen:


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 14, 2018)

Glad to see everything is working out. 



Shark said:


> My thought would be to connect straight to the main power below the meter, and use a 75-100 amp breaker type throw switch box dedicated to the furnace. In that case I would use a 4 gauge wire, especially if the distance was much over 10-15 feet from breaker to machine.



I just want to comment on this for the forum archives. 

This is NOT something I would recommend to anyone who wouldn't think of doing it themselves. Once you start working upstream of the distribution panel, you do so without the protection the breaker provides. You really need to have a solid understanding of what you are doing, and have safe working practices. Obviously you'd pull the meter, but even then, on this circuit your next line of defense is the cutout fuse on the power company pole mounted transformer, and blowing that one takes a lot of power. It's unlikely that it would happen without serious injury.

This is also where a lot of fires commonly start, as up until the wires come out of the weatherhead they are your responsibility. People assume that anything upstream of the meter is the power companies, and so often don't check those conductors. On a lot of old homes, the mast wires are only four to six gauge copper, as 60 amp service panels were pretty common for some time. Homeowners replace the wire to the meter box to upgrade to their new fancy 200 amp service, but they never replace the mast wires. The overheads don't have to be replaced, as ampacity of open air conductors are completely different.


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 21, 2018)

modtheworld44 said:


> Thank you!!!!
> 
> UncleBenBen
> 
> ...



Did you get this goin yet?


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 21, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> modtheworld44 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you!!!!
> ...


----------



## Palladium (Jan 21, 2018)

My lights just flashed here!
Was that you? :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## UncleBenBen (Jan 21, 2018)

Palladium said:


> My lights just flashed here!
> Was that you? :lol: :lol: :lol:



:lol: I'll claim the credit for that one. I blame conflicting schematics for the flux capacitor. The good thing is Mod and I can now officially claim Mandarin as a second language! :shock: :lol:


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 22, 2018)

Update!!!!


Here's the video and photos as promised,a little late.
https://youtu.be/lxkVqp-iWHs

Hope you enjoy.Thanks in advance.


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 22, 2018)

Awesome....what is that? About a lb?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jan 22, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> Awesome....what is that? About a lb?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



snoman701


It's 573.4grams of extreme HAPPINESS!!!!
Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## snoman701 (Jan 22, 2018)

Trust me! I get it! I ran out of oxygen melting a little over an ounce of silver.

Once you see a quiet induction melt with the nice mixing and the center of the melt sticking up out of the flux it's really hard to appreciate melting with a torch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UncleBenBen (Jan 22, 2018)

That's just a whole boat load of awesome! Really nice to the ol' gal up and running. Nice work my friend! 8)


----------



## Palladium (Jun 1, 2018)

So give us an update after a little experience with the machine. 
Pros or cons?


----------



## modtheworld44 (Jun 1, 2018)

Palladium said:


> So give us an update after a little experience with the machine.
> Pros or cons?



Palladium

I'm not sure where to start,but here go's.


PRO's

Time is saved by being able to process bigger lot sizes.I just finished smelting 41 lbs of dried-up fixer material,which I had to pre-incenerate because of sulphur dioxide gases.I got 11 avoirdupois pounds of silver so far.

You can melt iron,cast iron,zinc,copper,silver,palladium,platinum,rhodium,and anything in-between.It makes doing MLCC's a breeze(crush add borax and pour).The palladium collects in the bottom of the crucible and if tempature is controlled right it will separate into its own button that gets stuck to the bottom of the crucible when you pour the junk metals and slag off.

You can melt pounds in minutes vs hours,which makes the turn around faster.The power consumption is very small and not alot of change in the power bill.

CON's

You are limited to coil size you can make for it.I had a coil made at 4.5inches in diameter and under the five feet max and I can't get it to reach the same temp as the smaller original coil.This also contributes to the crucible size in which you are able to use.You can only use graphite crucibles or any other kind that will allow conductivity.

I now know for sure that to run it on a continuous basis you need way more than 30gals of water.You can definitely make boiling water with only the 30gals.You also have to make sure to never touch the coil with the crucible while the furnace is on(if you do, look forward to eventually scraping up your charge from the floor)the sparks will be your warning of the failure.If you melt zinc in it always keep it covered or the oxygen from the air causes it to volatilize.

I don't know if this is what you were asking for Palladium,but this should be a start.Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


----------



## anachronism (Jun 1, 2018)

I just looked on eBay- the prices of these things have dropped like a stone!


----------



## snoman701 (Jun 1, 2018)

Yeah, I've got one now....don't know if I would get one again or save for a bigger unit.

I really need 15 real kw. Or more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

