# Ethics/Morality of misrepresenting eBay auctions



## NobleMetalWorks

I was reading this thread:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083

I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.

These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.

Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.

If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.

If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold? 

Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.

Scott


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## butcher

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

What goes around comes around.

Careful what you swing out there, it might just comeback and slap you up side of the head.

I am not commenting on the other thread here, I am not sure what the details are, but did notice it has caused a stir.


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## qst42know

Part of the complication is the Internet itself, as a seller you must become a dual agent. You are the buyers only source of information, you do the inspection and report what you see. What you say and how you say it maters. In a live auction you throw the item on a hay wagon or table and the buyer does their own inspection. Internet auctions bring an additional responsibility you don't have in direct live sales.

Some don't sort this distinction out very well.


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## ericrm

pls use this add on ebay to explain clearly what wrong with ebay (im pretty sure the owner wont care...)

edit i have removed my ebay link because i realise that im in fact not doing myself a favor showing to everybody that...

but the things is i was trying to show a good exemple of what to me is acceptable. my nugget a worth about 20 /30$ of gold (full plated pins)my starting bid is at 20$ ... i even tell poeple that there is not much gold in them. someone who buy them will be ok. after that(and i hope that its gonna hapen)if someone dont know what he buy and bid like creazy after i warn them about the content.... i will just be glad for me

it just like when you go at a yard sale and buy a full box of gold plated item for 50$ when it is just cheap china plating worth 3$ of gold....


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## qst42know

I didn't see any issue in this case except for the recommendation this was suitable for a child. This item could be a choking hazard for small children or could contain lead or other toxins.


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## ericrm

your right on that i will do something about it...


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## cnbarr

SBrown said:


> I was reading this thread:
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083
> 
> I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.
> 
> These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.
> 
> Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.
> 
> If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.
> 
> If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold?
> 
> Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.
> 
> Scott



Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.

But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?


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## NobleMetalWorks

cnbarr said:


> Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.
> 
> But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?



I just do a good job pretending to be wise with words, in reality I am most likely not any different than you are.

Actually, you do a really good job debating yourself, and adding value to threads like this. =)

When you are talking about jewelry you also have to remember you are paying for artistic quality, for workmanship, labor and all kinds of other things like shipping, insurance, etc.

When you are buying a gold glob from someone off eBay, they have really done nothing. And in saying it's a gold drop from gold plated pins, you are also leaving the value, which you must be aware of, to be speculated when you know better. Everyone knows the value of gold, when you buy a ring it's 14k and so much weight, you know how much gold is in it, and you know what you are paying in markup. But when you sell a gold glob, nobody knows what metals are in it unless it's been assayed.

I think they are two totally different points, but I could be wrong and just seeing it that way. Buyer beware and all that, I agree with. However, that doesn't mean that I agree with refiners conducting themselves in such a way that makes all the rest of us look like scam artists, or people who prey on other people less knowledgeable. 

Scott


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## goldenchild

Although a noble effort... Honestly... I think this discussion could go on forever and is pointless. "Morals" are different from individual to individual and cannot be taught or learned in the academic sense. They need only make sense to the individual. Trying to deem something moral or immoral is like asking what's better, blue or red?


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## ericrm

blue :mrgreen:


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## goldenchild

nah gold 8)


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## cnbarr

:mrgreen: , Scott, Goldenchild,

All valid points, opinion is just that, opinion!

I had a whole list of rebuttals for you scott, but like goldenchild said we could go on and on for years in an argument like this forever. Like my philosophy teacher used to tell me, "the two worst types of arguments are the "circular" and the "reducto absurdium" (reduce to the absurd), they both point and counter pointer but lead no where.

Scott, I respect you and follow many of your posts with great interest, and would love to further this debate if you would also (through pm or possibly over the phone)? But it is coming to the point where what is the benefit of the forum? 

Again Scott, if you want to further this (of course in a friendly manner) PM me and I will shoot you my phone number.


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## cnbarr

SBrown said:


> However, *that doesn't mean that I agree with refiners conducting themselves in such a way that makes all the rest of us look like scam artists,* or people who prey on other people less knowledgeable. Scott



One last point, not that I am aware of has any of these ebay sellers, selling gold pin drops, conveyed themselves as refiners or offered their services as such. Just because they were/are members that we are aware of does not mean they have represented themselves in such a way on ebay that is degrading the rest of us or our craft.


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## MysticColby

Yeah, this type of discussion is just people saying their views. No ones mind will ever be changed. It's still good to hear the opinions, because just having the issue brought to people's attention will raise their awareness and encourage them to behave responsibly.

I consider myself very honest. I don't do double features at movie theaters, I've informed professors they gave too high a score on a test, I've received free gifts in the mail at work intended for someone else and forwarded it to them.
But I think that selling something you're not misrepresenting and you know someone is going to overprice is not unethical. You're providing the item, the buyer provides the price. It'd be different if they were incapable of being informed, but they're not. Items are worth what people will pay for them.

Now, I also feel that sellers need to describe their items better. You have to describe your item fully, like say the actual % gold content, not just how you got it. Otherwise, I could make a post saying something like "100g bar of gold melted from 1g 24K gold bar + copper" or "silver refined from 2 pounds of 1965 US half dollars" (these are the 40% silver ones). You're selling the item, not what the item used to be, so describe the item, not what it used to be.


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## rusty

I sell door knobs on ebay, I buff them up using jewelers rouge on my 3 hp buffer. Mine sell for twice the money of what others offer. 

I also cast fishing weight molds, using old molds previously purchased from ebay for my patterns, does this make me deceitful and dishonest.


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## silversaddle1

When I sell on e-bay I give a truthful accurate discription. Whatever the buyers want to pay after that I have no control over. I don't care if the buyer pays too much. It happens all the time, and not just on e-bay. I myself have overpaid before. Oh well. Next!


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## Geo

rusty said:


> I sell door knobs on ebay, I buff them up using jewelers rouge on my 3 hp buffer. Mine sell for twice the money of what others offer.
> 
> I also cast fishing weight molds, using old molds previously purchased from ebay for my patterns, does this make me deceitful and dishonest.



Rusty, there is nothing wrong with what you do. and you may be able to squeeze a little more than that out of it. when people see what you have, they know exactly what it is. there can hardly be anyway to deceive someone with a doorknob unless you imply it came from the whitehouse bathroom door. :shock: :lol: the same with fishing weights. if you ask an inflated price, no one will buy it because the value of the item is in its usefulness, unless you implied it was made out of gold plated whatever.


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## glondor

Dare I say I know there is a joke in there somewhere about polishing door knobs. Just can't quite grasp what it is.... hmmmm


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## Ocean

I have 2 full time eBay employees, and a 3rd that handles shipping only.

We have found that complete and utter honesty, to the point of TRYING TO SCARE AWAY CUSTOMERS, is the best route for us to go.

We don't try to get the MOST on each sale, we want the EASIEST sale. 8) 

Less problems = more $ in the long run when running volume like we do.


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## eeTHr

cnbarr said:


> SBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading this thread:
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083
> 
> I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.
> 
> These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.
> 
> Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.
> 
> If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.
> 
> If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold?
> 
> Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.
> 
> But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?
Click to expand...



Not to contest your integrity, but there is a reason that some products have a higher markup percentage than others, no matter what they are.

It generally goes like this: If a product stays "on the shelf," or in inventory a very short time, like bread in a grocery store, it has a "fast turnover rate." That results in the store being able to recover their cost, plus profit, and reinvest it rapidly. With a fast turnover product, you can mulitply your investment many times in a given period. In one month, for example, you will make more sales of each item, and thus end up with a greater amount of profit than if you only sold one of the items per month. So on fast turnover items, the markup percentage is low.

Now imagine a jewelry store. They can have lots of money tied up in inventory. You can see jewelry pieces sitting in their display cases for months before someone buys them. Jewelry is generally slow turnover. The markup percentage on jewelry is generally 300 to 500%. (That's why jewelry stores can have so many "half off" sales---they get a faster turnover during the "sale" period, and still sell at a profit.)

An average markup for any dry goods item is 100%, and this is called a "keystone" markup. Faster selling items can be priced below keystone, and slower selling items are usually above keystone markup. You can sell many items for below keystone, or just one or two "high end" products above keystone, and still "make the rent" just the same. Grocery stores usually run about an 18% markup for food products, because they are mostly very fast turnover.

That is the actual logic behind differing markup percentages for different types of products.

Industry standard markups are not just arbitrary or whimsical. There is some sense and fairness to them.

I just wanted to inject some perspective into what is being discussed, for what it's worth.


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## nickvc

eeTHer can I say that the margins quoted for jewellery stores might well be the case for large groups but many independents work on much smaller margins. Where I am in the jewellery quarter in Birmingham UK we are lucky to work on 100% + tax and usually have to be at least 1/2 that to achieve a sale, but there are over 100 retailers in a small area. The real problems are the overheads such as rent, insurance, alarms, rates, credit card charges, staff and power costs and we have weeks when we take no money but the bills keep coming. All this is without the cost of having stock which can be a large amount of money and which can be there for years not months and the perception that because the item is 18k it costs 75% of spot is far from true, I'm paying around $55 a gram to buy 18k mounts then the costs to mount and set them plus the stones plus losses, there's no easy money in whatever trade you engage in at the moment and retailing jewellery is perhaps the worst as its a pure luxury for most not a necessity like food or fuel.
The real embarrassment is when customers come in to sell items purchased from a large group,I tend to tell them what I would have sold the item for and send them elsewhere, an item they paid €550 for I would have sold for $240 at full price and there's 20% tax on that, take off my profit and it actually cost $100 to buy so if it's just scrap there's say 30% of manufacturing costs so that's $70 at full scrap value, doesn't look too good!
So I guess the value of anything is that which people are willing to pay and fancy stores, posh boxes and branding all adds perceived value to those that buy and I bet the big stores do not over worry about their high margins.


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## Irons2

The best experience I had with a Jeweler is when my ex and I went to buy her an engagement ring. The owner asked us what size Diamond we were looking for, so I told him 1/4 Carat. He takes out a large envelope and dumps about 200 stones on the counter. "Here, pick the one you like. I just came back from Antwerp." We then picked out a setting. The whole cost was just over $100 with Tax. I thought it was a good deal at the time. The ex, not so much.


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## eeTHr

nick and Irons---

Those are good examples of customers getting value for their money.

Department stores and famous name stores have higher markups, but at least their gold is karat marked.

But the "gold" bars, as mentioned above, and other junk sold as "gold," are in an entirely different category!




cnbarr said:


> so describe the item, not what it used to be.


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## cnbarr

eeTHr said:


> nick and Irons---
> *
> 
> 
> cnbarr said:
> 
> 
> 
> so describe the item, not what it used to be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *




eeTHr,

I'm not sure why you have a statement with a quote from me that I never said???



eeTHr said:


> cnbarr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading this thread:
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083
> 
> I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.
> 
> These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.
> 
> Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.
> 
> If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.
> 
> If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold?
> 
> Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.
> 
> But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not to contest your integrity, but there is a reason that some products have a higher markup percentage than others, no matter what they are.
> 
> It generally goes like this: If a product stays "on the shelf," or in inventory a very short time, like bread in a grocery store, it has a "fast turnover rate." That results in the store being able to recover their cost, plus profit, and reinvest it rapidly. With a fast turnover product, you can mulitply your investment many times in a given period. In one month, for example, you will make more sales of each item, and thus end up with a greater amount of profit than if you only sold one of the items per month. So on fast turnover items, the markup percentage is low.
> 
> Now imagine a jewelry store. They can have lots of money tied up in inventory. You can see jewelry pieces sitting in their display cases for months before someone buys them. Jewelry is generally slow turnover. The markup percentage on jewelry is generally 300 to 500%. (That's why jewelry stores can have so many "half off" sales---they get a faster turnover during the "sale" period, and still sell at a profit.)
> 
> An average markup for any dry goods item is 100%, and this is called a "keystone" markup. Faster selling items can be priced below keystone, and slower selling items are usually above keystone markup. You can sell many items for below keystone, or just one or two "high end" products above keystone, and still "make the rent" just the same. Grocery stores usually run about an 18% markup for food products, because they are mostly very fast turnover.
> 
> That is the actual logic behind differing markup percentages for different types of products.
> 
> Industry standard markups are not just arbitrary or whimsical. There is some sense and fairness to them.
> 
> I just wanted to inject some perspective into what is being discussed, for what it's worth.
Click to expand...


I'm perfectly fine with where my integrity stands, like I said in this post and the other post that SBrown started this thread about, I'm *NOT *alright with theses scenarios on ebay and I would never do such myself.

I was simply arguing the fact that what is wrong to one person is not necessarily wrong to another, ethics and values are subject to the individual. If someone feels they have represented themselves appropriately as well as their product on ebay, who is too say they are wrong, we all have free will. I don't have to go to the grocery store and spend $4 a gallon on milk when I can buy a cow, and get what most would perceive as free milk, but I still do.

I think because we our all a member of a "gold refining forum" many can't see past the spot price of gold. Who cares if it is gold, milk, vegetables, or a television, if someone spends time, money, and labor to make a product they should be free to charge what they want within competitive reason. Just like many large refiners minting stamped bullion, it's smooth, shiny, and has a logo stamped in it and they sell it for 5, 10, 15, 20% above spot price, is it right? Who is any one of us to say it's wrong, we live in America, if you don't like the price don't buy it, I know I won't. Just because it is gold related doesn't mean it should be classified any differently then any other product.

I'll say itagain I don't personally agree with alot of what happens on ebay, but again I have free will and I don't have to purchase anything off ebay, or anywhere else, unless I want too! Everybody else is free to make the same choice in all there purchases in life, it shouldn't matter if it is gold or blue jeans. 

eeTHr, I don't mean to sound brash, but I feel like you were trying to "call me out", I don't take offense so I hope you don't either?

Chris

Edit: for clarification


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## Geo

theres a new member that just started a thread. i wont mention names. he is asking how to process some scrap he bought on Ebay. guess what the scrap is. thats right, buttons made from melted pins. i hated to be the one to tell him that he bought 100 grams of worthless crap and he didnt say what he paid for it but after reading my reply im sure he wishes he hadnt bought it now. i see a rash of this type of activity in the future. he first started about shor, and he bought this scrap, and now he wants to know how to refine it.this is one person and im sure he represents many more that may never find the forum. how do you save people from themselves? theres a new gold rush. its on Ebay in the form of melted pins.


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## patnor1011

When I went out to buy new TV I spent few days on net checking different brands and types. I rang few friends and ask them for advice and how they are happy with their purchase. Then I make up my mind and went out and spent 1400 euros.
I do have that TV till today and it works fine. 
In about a month after purchase it went from 1400 to less than thousand.What I mean is that what Scott see as unethical or not moral is all around us in our daily life. It would be wrong to pick on someone selling gold in whatever form and disregard all unethical "sales" on eBay. 
We talk about "gold drops" as something outrageous and yet we see (or sell) pentium pro going for 2-3 times of it value. Yes, someone told that maybe people overpaying for Pro just invest in gold for future - maybe people buying so called drops just do the same. Many of us were selling lots of CPU which were of smaller yield and just by tossing in one-two Pro or gold caps we just increased price well over real value as buyer usually did not bother with math to get real value of every one chip - they just see the cream intentionally mixed inside.
What is ethical or moral on selling Viagr* for what they sell it, when everyone know what is inside and it was surprise discovery while R&D of something totally different? New iPhone produced in China and sold for 100 times of production cost? Thousands of examples.

So buyer will be honest if he would say that his bar contain 0.546% of gold? How about the most popular US soda you drink everyday and will never know what it contain. Yet you will buy and drink it every day without questioning producers integrity. Not to mention difference in cost of producing it and selling price.
How can we question seller of those gold drops saying that he did not put in anything compare to jeweller who invest labor, time, etc.... Maybe gold drops producer invested in much more from his point of view, maybe he spent days trying to melt it or pour it to different shapes, maybe his overhead is way bigger than overhead of some jeweller...

No, I do not take sides in this. I just think we waste time talking about stuff like this. Every purchase goes to how informed buyer is and I do not want to bear responsibility to educate every Jack&Joe who want to spend their money. I never saw business owner who will tell his customer that shop in next village sells the same thing much cheaper that he should go there.

I just think that I am informed so I will not buy so called gold drop but if somebody does, it is his decision or investment. I am enough experienced that I decided for myself that selling them is not worth dealing with problems which may and will come with some customers either.


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## butcher

I think it all boils down to honesty, not how much you make for a product.


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## patnor1011

Maybe "gold drops" seller just factored in his overhead. To say he did not put in anything is wrong. He collected and hauled in computers, dismantled them, cut or desolder pins out, melted them, polished resulting bar....
If somebody pay for that it is his choice. 
Even if we would know exact gold composition, as informed buyers we will not buy that for spot as we will argue that there will be cost of refining...

When I buy I want item cheap to have profit, when I sell I want profit too - where is that fine line? Who has authority to draw it? 

Educate yourself I would say. In my country we have saying, something like "two times measure, one time cut"


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## Palladium

I've been staying out the discussion. I agree with the mentality that if the buyer's willing to pay it you should sell it at that price. My thing is with the deception part. Yes their is deception! Those so called gold bars have been tampered with to change their appearance and that's where the deception comes into play. They say they list everything all truthful and tell you what the contents are so you know and how it was made. They left out one process. The one where they plate the material to take on the appearance of something that it isn't. Just the fact of that alone shows deception and bad intentions. Your telling me someone melted something that's 99% copper and that it came out looking like a gold bar without any surface oxidation of anything? I don't think so. So why didn't they include that in their statement of the facts and truth they use to justify the selling of something? They included everything but that part, Why?


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## patnor1011

They do Ralph.
They state that they polished or used metal brush to give them "bars" that finish and appearance. And that is a red flag for me. If I see that something was polished or brushed to look better and it is not old fence from back garden, then I steer away from that. :lol: 
Demand and supply. If people will get better educated there will be no demand and supply will dry out. But education is everyone's responsibility or choice.


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## patnor1011

On a side note bars like those are perfect investment for security reasons. Remember that thread about Honey pot for thieves and burglars? I would put few in small box with some other worthless junk jewelry and let burglar to refine them. :mrgreen:


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## ericrm

this post has giving me an idea

i will post an item on ebay will those rules: i will not cheat on the picture(i will show the item the way it is),i will not lie about the item(i will not use word to trick poeple like : buy this solid gold bracelet (when solid mean the construction and not the metal composition.....i think you understand) , *i will not educate*(steve already sell dvd for that) 
we will see the result in a week

sounds good? your comment will be apreciated


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## joem

I did that and the item did not sell.


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## ericrm

im pretty sure it will sell ,but let wait and see 8)


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## etack

patnor1011 said:


> On a side note bars like those are perfect investment for security reasons. Remember that thread about Honey pot for thieves and burglars? I would put few in small box with some other worthless junk jewelry and let burglar to refine them. :mrgreen:



That is great will do. I have some "gold" casting grain and "silver" too I think some 100TOZ bars are in order .:lol: 

I think I might cast a bunch to sell. Call it honey pot minting. As honey pot gold not real gold

Eric


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## ericrm

etack that is pure genius, your will sell your fake gold bar made of real gold plated pin so ,all the person who buy melted plated pins will still buy them , but nobody on the forum will think crap about you because your selling them as a objet of its own ,a protection device agains thief.....


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## patnor1011

ericrm said:


> this post has giving me an idea
> 
> i will post an item on ebay will those rules: i will not cheat on the picture(i will show the item the way it is),i will not lie about the item(i will not use word to trick poeple like : buy this solid gold bracelet (when solid mean the construction and not the metal composition.....i think you understand) , *i will not educate*(steve already sell dvd for that)
> we will see the result in a week
> 
> sounds good? your comment will be apreciated



No need to crucify guy who sell those "gold drops"
I mean he is doing the same as countless of others selling other stuff with shady or misleading description like 1gr (grain) of gold, different plated bars and coins where they forget to mention that they are just plated, gold flakes which are not gold at all, it appears that military is being scrapped out as every second pin for sale is mil spec, etc....

I mean I am not going to be Savior for every lost soul over on eBay. Maybe some of this buyers need to be burned to start understand that not everything which is shiny is gold. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.


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## etack

ericrm said:


> etack that is pure genius, your will sell your fake gold bar made of real gold plated pin so ,all the person who buy melted plated pins will still buy them , but nobody on the forum will think crap about you because your selling them as a objet of its own ,a protection device agains thief.....



No I have casting grain that I bought called Nu gold and some nickel silver. (Bought it thinking it was gold and silver)The add will say does not contain GOLD.

I enjoy sleeping at night and have had enough bad Karma to last many more years. :lol: 

Eric


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## ericrm

etack in that case, do you mind if i take that brilliant idea and make it mine?


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## ericrm

patnor1011 said:


> ericrm said:
> 
> 
> 
> this post has giving me an idea
> 
> i will post an item on ebay will those rules: i will not cheat on the picture(i will show the item the way it is),i will not lie about the item(i will not use word to trick poeple like : buy this solid gold bracelet (when solid mean the construction and not the metal composition.....i think you understand) , *i will not educate*(steve already sell dvd for that)
> we will see the result in a week
> 
> sounds good? your comment will be apreciated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to crucify guy who sell those "gold drops"
> I mean he is doing the same as countless of others selling other stuff with shady or misleading description like 1gr (grain) of gold, different plated bars and coins where they forget to mention that they are just plated, gold flakes which are not gold at all, it appears that military is being scrapped out as every second pin for sale is mil spec, etc....
> 
> I mean I am not going to be Savior for every lost soul over on eBay. Maybe some of this buyers need to be burned to start understand that not everything which is shiny is gold. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Click to expand...


im not crucifing him, im realy turn on by that idea, if honestly find it genius... poeple of the forum kind of get "unreal" sometime.


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## eeTHr

cnbarr---

I highlighted that quote from MysticColby, to put it in an already opened reply box. I have no idea why your name got on it. :?: 

I was just trying to be brief with some thoughts.



Another factor in markup is called "Value Added." There are several types of value which can be added to a purchased product when reselling. Some examples are time, location, quantity, form, and transaction method.

Time: If someone has a product which is immediately available, it has more value to the buyer if nobody else has the same product ready to sell or ship.

Location: If someone has the same product available locally, when others are far away and require large shipping charges plus maybe import tariffs, then the local product itself has more value to the buyer.

Quantity: If a seller makes the product available in small quantities, it is of more value to a buyer who doesn't require large amounts, than is the same product in larger quantities.

Form: If the product is somehow improved to better suit the buyers needs, then it is of more value to the buyer.

Transaction method: If it is easier for the buyer to deal with one source, rather than "jump through hoops" with other sellers, that adds value to the product itself. This can also include the seller's reputation and warranty, plus before- and after-sales support.

...Just more things to think about concerning real value.



To sum up my opinion on the subject eBay items, I feel that there is obviously something wrong there---because so many people think that the value is simply not even close to being there, and that the seller should certainly know that. When there are too many complaints, something isn't right somewhere.


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## MysticColby

eeTHr and cnbarr, I was confused by that confusion as well 

ebay should really let us post comments on other people's auctions. these comments would be visible to other potential bidders.
I could see how it might be abused, but I'd bet it would do more good for preventing scammers and deceivers than backfire on honest people.


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## patnor1011

I do not agree.
Sellers are punished enough. Mainly not being able to give negative to dishonest buyers. Try to start selling and you will see how many are out there. I do have about 200 people on my block buyer list where I had negative experience when they tried to scam or just rob me. Do you know how many times I dealt with buyers who wanted steal from me? Do this or that or I will leave negative and such? Even now and then someone try to tell me they got empty CD and want money back. I have to ask them to send me that empty CD back so I can refund them. And guess what? Not one bothered to do so even that I offered them refund extra postage they will pay for mailing me my CD back. I had to start sign my CD to make sure they return me correct one. :lol: 
You do want to comment on other people auctions even that you are not willing to buy? Who we are some Moral certification Authority?
I hope you meant that as joke. 
There is mechanism in place on eBay where you can report fake or misleading auctions and if eBay will not take it down so be it, it is just you or your conscience which disagree with what is listed.


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## Calg5

I fully agree with Patnor's comments on the previous post. I have also dealt with unreasonable buyers on e-bay. About a year ago I listed some ceramic chips for gold recovery and stated very clearly that the chips were unsoldered from various boards and that there was still some residual solder on the pins. The successful buyer messaged me that it was my responsibiltiy to clean up the pins as he wanted to sell the chips as collectibles. Sometimes you can make things fool proof but you cannot make them idiot proof. He refused to pay when I told him that I would not do that.


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## eeTHr

For every business, there is a percentage of customers who are "professional complainers." I started referring to each of them as "Nota Customer," and decided that if they were not a customer, then why deal with them?

My best guess is they think that everyone is out to cheat them, so it's only fair that they cheat everyone they can, and/or that the "really smart" people cheat as much as they can as a way of life, so they want to be "really smart," too.

As was said above, they come up with some really nutty reasons why you should give them free stuff!


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## MysticColby

yeah, you're probably right on the comment thing.

browsing reddit, thought this was perfect for this discussion:
http://imgur.com/yoZHh


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## Geo

just to keep balance in the discussion, i would like to comment. if a seller accurately describes what they are selling and the buyer assumes it to be something its not is one thing. we are talking about deception and misleading descriptions. if i were to melt a bunch of gold plated jewelry (or pins) and pour a bar, i could without regret list it as gold bearing scrap. if i add in the listing that gold content was unknown, so much the better, it tends to peak the imagination of people to try and find out what it contains and drive the bids up. to alter the true appearance by shining or polishing and casting in a yellow light or down right coating it with gold or even gold paint is deception. this is what sticks in my side. any member here thats been on the forum awhile and done any reading would see right through it for what it truly is.


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## etack

Geo said:


> to alter the true appearance by shining or polishing and casting in a yellow light or down right coating it with gold or even gold paint is deception. this is what sticks in my side. any member here thats been on the forum awhile and done any reading would see right through it for what it truly is.



That is what bothered me the most too.

Eric


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## patnor1011

This is where my comment apply. Educate yourself.
No matter how much of light or polishing will go in, one educated person will know that even polished brass will be looking like gold. And if you will see that they are from melted pins you know what is on the table.
I was the same and went out on car boot sales buying cutlery for what they asked. I just saw hallmarks so I assumed they are silver. I was happy thinking I do have pile of silver bought for half price. 
Then I got book with hallmarks and went on to find out how old are some of my treasured forks and spoons only to find out that they were silver plated. Should I be angry on sellers? They told me yes, they are silver... Technically they were silver (plated). Always read the fine print. Just watch ads for easy fast cash loans when in need, they are so professional and tempting. Then stop screen when fine print appears only to see that they charge something like 3574% APR. 

What is misrepresenting? I think we need to see that from both view. OP looks at it from buyers point of view. If you buy you want it cheaper. If you sell you want to sell for more. Trade will take place only when both parties will be happy.
I would say it is only matter of time till sellers of these gold drops will slowly disappear. It will be the same as with 1grain bars, gold plated mini coins, gold flakes... Every of those had a sort of a boom when not enough people were educated and when more people found out what it is they stopped buying. Yeah there will be occasional few going for that stuff but you cant save everyone. As it was mentioned some people just need to get burned to make them to start thinking, same as happened to me with silver plated cutlery. 
Remember one thing also. You can say your view, present your moral values - show others who you are. You can NOT force others to accept your values or beliefs. That would be just wrong. To say that someone is wrong or crook just because you do not agree with what he do - you can present your opinion to others but you can NOT force others to accept it as standard.
Most of you know what happened with my eBook. It is something little bit different from this situation but even that I was able to prove it was my work which I gave out here for free that person claimed it was his work. He is still selling that and practically stealing. What is my point in mentioning this? Quite a few people told me that world is like that, people are bad and I should learn to live with that. 
So instead of looking for what is living in accordance to our moral standard we should focus on matter at hand which is refining. Forum grows and with more members there is more competition in scrap collecting, selling or refining and tension is growing. It seems to me that people started to jump on each other for every reason they can, just to show how better they are than all the others. 
This is not Ethics/Morality forum and for funny eBay auction we have appropriate thread. 
*Discussing this is enormous waste of time and space. *


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## patnor1011

MysticColby said:


> yeah, you're probably right on the comment thing.
> 
> browsing reddit, thought this was perfect for this discussion:
> http://imgur.com/yoZHh



Not really. Here is seller point of view or how some people might view this and how different it may be from your view.
She was not awesome for no reason.
You were not educated buyer and bid way too much for something which was clearly not worth that much. You liked them but she felt that even sending you two of them, will leave her with profit. Do not fool yourself that she gave you something extra out of her pocket. 
Another thing worth to think about is that this might be seller advertisement. She did that to see positive feedback and to have somebody to do free advertising for her for long time.
She also protected herself as you might meet with somebody or find on internet or somewhere that they are being sold for fraction of what you paid and become angry. 
Do not take me wrong, but this is common practice with sellers. I sell something as buy it now for 3.99 and I listed few of the same for 1.99
You know what happened? I had quite few of people who instead of educate themselves or investigate a bit just bid like mad and I sold few for over 10$ even that I had the same thing listed for 3.99
I just protected myself from their anger as they will turn anger towards me instead of thinking how ^$£&%$ they were so I sent them something extra or refunded a bit of price. It was not any bleeding heart action, I was not sorry for them as it was their laziness or %^$(& or call it however you want - I was just protecting myself as people tend to blame others even for their own mistakes. :lol:


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## maynman1751

> So instead of looking for what is living in accordance to our moral standard we should focus on matter at hand which is refining. Forum grows and with more members there is more competition in scrap collecting, selling or refining and tension is growing. It seems to me that people started to jump on each other for every reason they can, just to show how better they are than all the others.
> This is not Ethics/Morality forum and for funny eBay auction we have appropriate thread.
> Discussing this is enormous waste of time and space.


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## Palladium

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d04POZtvKNQ[/youtube]


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## qst42know

The ultimate misrepresentation.

Where's the link for his e-book? :roll: :lol:


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## Geo

an obvious paid advertisement by Shor international.


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## jimdoc

He is probably the new Shor technical support guy.

Jim


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## acpeacemaker

That is obviously a man that drinks his solutions.


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## etack

Geo said:


> an obvious paid advertisement by Shor international.



If it is they should rethink their spokesperson. watch his other videos. :lol: :lol: :lol: 



jimdoc said:


> He is probably the new Shor technical support guy.
> 
> Jim



You e-mail him questions and he puts it in his thought cavity for awhile then the answer comes to him in his portable one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ter2AF8fiI&list=UUuFBe_iXIGtcvTvBTzoLz-w&index=8&feature=plcp



acpeacemaker said:


> That is obviously a man that drinks his solutions.



With his non toxic sub zero :lol: :lol: 

this is what make Youtube great.

Eric


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## maynman1751

I think this guy has been in the mushrooms! :lol: :roll:


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## butcher

Wow non-toxic HCl and nitric acid to make aqua regia, so you will not have toxic chemicals in your house.
Shor’s poor-mans fertilizer, and the plastic bucket is only going to cost him around $595.00 
He still has a few things to learn.
Just wait until he learns he can go to the feed store and buy this fertilizer, a heck of a lot cheaper.


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## ericrm

ericrm said:


> this post has giving me an idea
> 
> i will post an item on ebay will those rules: i will not cheat on the picture(i will show the item the way it is),i will not lie about the item(i will not use word to trick poeple like : buy this solid gold bracelet (when solid mean the construction and not the metal composition.....i think you understand) , *i will not educate*(steve already sell dvd for that)
> we will see the result in a week
> 
> sounds good? your comment will be apreciated



the result: i got one bite but i lost money on my item didnt get high enuf... of course nobody will complaint that i got ripped off by a buyer who new the value and didnt offer me an decent price ouside ebay :lol: 

on the other hand i have calculate my last 16 buy on ebay and 6 of them was not a describe or defective... 1/3 of product wasent worth to buy... it made me realise that IM also buying crap over ebay without knowing it real value... :roll:


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## Rodger Hamilton

Scam artists at best, and crooks at worst (if one considered less harmful then the other).

The fact is, these drops are marketed to the “wanna be” back yard refiner, because these “drops” could scarcely be regarded as “Future Valued Investments”.

There is absolutely no reason to melt pins into “drops” except to fool the uninitiated into thinking there is more value in that “drop”.
Play the devils advocate, why not sell the unmolested pins and save the trouble and expense of melting, gram for gram, both should be of equal value... right?
No... for 3 reasons
1) You have a chance of estimating the values of plated pins before bidding.
2) You have no chance of if estimating values in a melted “drop”.
3) The “drop” look a lot like a Solid Gold Button.

Any fool with a torch and a little practice can melt a bunch of pins into a button. Add a few deceptive descriptions for the original pins “mill spec”, “thick plated” etc... It begs the question... How do we know the pins were “hi-quality”? The truth is, you will never know.

It is not easy to “fake” pins, so the scammers do the next best thing. Melt a few genuine Gold Plated pins so they can add bits of junk metals to increase weight, then polish the button.
So there is your added value... 

One seller has in his description “will fail the 10K test”. This is another deception because 1K will also fail the test, in fact, a piece of copper wire will also fail the 10K test. But while the statement is indeed true, “10-K” is not lost in the mind of the prospective buyer... it is a “hint” dropped by the scammer.

Because of that statement, the seller is perceived to be “honest”, but it is also intended to plant a number in the mind of the buyer. The human mind will “fill in” missing information, this trait makes us humans good at solving problems (but will also lead us down a foolish path, because Gold brings out the optimist in all of us).
The actual karat value of the button is a number between 0 and 9 (so now, the buyer has to make a decision, based on truthful, but counterproductive information). The button appears “golden”, so it's perhaps somewhere close to 9K but not more than 10K.
At best, he correctly guesses there is nothing of much value and moves on. At worst, he calculates up to 9k worth of value, considers his chances of out-bidding everyone else, and places a bid accordingly.

The bait is set, the lines are tight, the seller waits for the fish to bite.


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## Anonymous

I could have sworn when I read this thread yesterday, that someone locked it, but I see that it's not. But here's my take on this:

When I went and looked at a few of the melted pins for auction/sale, I noticed something very deceptive in the Title alone. And guess what makes the ad deceptive (to me anyway) the one and only 2 words.... 

From Wikipedia
(Troy Ounce)

Troy ounce in today's terms is normally used for the weight of *precious* metals. If the word *Troy* wasn't in there, at least the title wouldn't be obviously deceptive. 

*[UPDATE]* Someone must be reading these posts and changing their ads on eBay because one of the ones I saw that said *Troy Ounce* in the title, now uses the word *RAW*. Also, saying in the description that the item came from 24K gold plated items is just as bogus, especially if you can't even show the item before it was melted down. Heck, I have pounds of gold plated pins. Clean pins at that. But I know they're not troy ounces worth or even raw gold.

I can go on and on, but this thread should only be good enough to simply educate people.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to put together a little list of threads to let new people to this forum that has little to no experience in precious metals to read over. That way, they won't get snookered on eBay. I got snookered on eBay because someone put in the title (Palladium), when in fact, they should have said Tantalum. That's alright, we live and we learn.

Kevin


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## rpg

99% of the times people should avoid Ebay. Yesterday some had 60 drives for sale for $150 or so. I sent him an offer of $60 he reply with a counter offer of $2 less - $148. Only then I realized the 60 drives were 2.5" lol. Thank God he didn't accept my offer. So I replied to him that his drives were not worth more then $30 since the only valuable thing there is the board at $11/pound and each 2.5" board only weights around 10 grams. So I went back and looked at his previous sales and indeed he has sold before around 60 laptop drives for around $140-$150.


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