# Question about running cells in series



## Kaiser613 (Feb 3, 2020)

Hello, I had a question about using electrolytic cells in series, I'm trying to design a cheap first cell for myself, specifically put together for electrowinning copper, to collect the values in the minor constituents ( feedstock material In mind is the non-ferrous metal portion of ball milled low grade circuit boards, after melting out solder portion in hot pot, and possibly removing nickel with Monde process, more on that later) which in this case would mostly consist of zinc (from brass) silver , beryllium , and (if not removed by Monde) nickel, chromium, molybdenum, tungsten, ect., From what I've read in copper cell threads, separating copper fromother base metals is dependant on very low controllable voltage, under 1v, now here's where my question comes in

Trying to find a cheap adjustable power supply that goes below, 3v AND can handle a KW of load (that's the scale I'm planning for my purposes) is frustrating me so I was wondering if placing multiple cells in series from a 6v or 12v fixed voltage power supply would be fruitfull solution. My concern is would the voltage be
A.evenly distributed or 
B. would each cell receive less voltage that the last, 
would the resistance of each cell effect this? 
I'd like to be able to say attach 24 cells in series to a high amperage 12v power supply which by my math should give me .5v across each cell, then when it comes time that I need to adjust the voltage (up) in order to fraction out a different metal (onto a different cathode obv.) I could simply remove one or more cells from the series. 
But if voltage doesn't divide even like that then there would be a spectrum across the series and anodes could be moved down the line the fraction

Somebody who understands electrons better than me please explain

I also have questions about the Monde process but that belongs elsewhere


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## AshesoftheUniverse (Feb 3, 2020)

In theory that should work. Practically not so much. You will still have to monitor each cell in a timely manner. As long as the cells stay balanced, everything will be fine. If you have a consistent feedstock, added at even times, you should have little problem. In other words, if each cell is fed evenly, with the same potential, then the deposition and rate of depletion should remain the same.
Try it, you can only go crazy trying to keep-up.


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## Kaiser613 (Feb 3, 2020)

So if I understand you, 

If all 24 cells were identical (same surface area of anodes/cathode available, same distance between -odes, same concentration of electrolyte, ect. Then each would run at an equel .5v potential between each set of -odes. But then as the cells run over time, the geometry of corrosion and deposition will change the available surface area differently in different cells, causing ?

What am I balancing exactly? Resistance? I'm looking at this relative to resistors in a voltage splitter (which I still don't 100% understand but I have the basic principle; two resistors of different resistance causes output voltages to be split relative to resistance) so as -ode surface goes down (or electrolyte conductivity goes down) restance should go up? Does that cell experience increased or decreased voltage ( also wouldn't amperage density go up in this cell?)


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## Thipdar (Feb 4, 2020)

Kaiser613 said:


> Hello, I had a question about using electrolytic cells in series, I'm trying to design a cheap first cell for myself, specifically put together for electrowinning copper, to collect the values in the minor constituents ( feedstock material In mind is the non-ferrous metal portion of ball milled low grade circuit boards, after melting out solder portion in hot pot, and possibly removing nickel with Monde process, more on that later) which in this case would mostly consist of zinc (from brass) silver , beryllium , and (if not removed by Monde) nickel, chromium, molybdenum, tungsten, ect., From what I've read in copper cell threads, separating copper fromother base metals is dependant on very low controllable voltage, under 1v, now here's where my question comes in
> 
> Trying to find a cheap adjustable power supply that goes below, 3v AND can handle a KW of load (that's the scale I'm planning for my purposes) is frustrating me so I was wondering if placing multiple cells in series from a 6v or 12v fixed voltage power supply would be fruitfull solution. My concern is would the voltage be
> A.evenly distributed or
> ...



Running 3v and 1 KW means 333 AMPS in the circuit.
Running 1v and 1 KW means 1,000 AMPS in the circuit.

If someone gets electrocuted, one-tenth to two-tenths of an amp is usually fatal.

If you don't establish some industrial-strength safety precautions, you're risking property damage and death.

-- Thipdar


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## anachronism (Feb 4, 2020)

I think it would be really useful for you to use and control a basic cell/electrowin cell before jumping straight in to the involved stuff. That way you'll have a much better handle on what you are trying to achieve but more importantly HOW. 

Build a simple one and use the voltages/ampages detailed all over the forum. To be really I honest I do a fair bit of work these days with this kind of stuff and I've never approached anything like the currents you are looking at.


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## Kaiser613 (Feb 4, 2020)

Hmm, I had considered the high amperage involved, and am more than carefully around electricity, but that doesn't sound great, the only reason i said I'm scaling for a KW of load is because Im not expecting a considerable return of "precious" metals so the utility of the cell is really the volume of base metals it can process

The situation I'm in that this makes sense for me, is that I'm a mid level scrap handler who trying to expand into electronics, local buyers pay litterally garbage prices for any electronics, even ram cards and processors are valued less than a dollar a pound, and I'm 1000 miles from BoardSort so it's gonna take an ltl (if not ftl) freight shipment to justify sending in gold content boards, but the low and mid grade boards simply aren't worth shipping anywhere and the yard down the street pays less than steel for them, I've planned to instead set about milling and refining then, the electrolytic cell would be last step in the process

Without it, the feedstock that would've gone into cell, would sell as brass as best abt $1.20/lb (if not lower, plus is finely granulated and may be rejected or downgraded by a scrapyard for such, the cell would also consolidate the granules into cathode rods without having to have a foundry, hopefully) so the cell would upgrade it to #1 (or better) copper plus recoverable zinc and other minor contents

I didn't consider anything I was planning to be "the hard stuff" but if that's what folks here think they're probably right, now that you all know my situation what would be a better solution for me? 

For example does anyone know what I could use as a power supply for my low voltage needs that I could pull from scrap or salvage from a cheap appliance?


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## Kaiser613 (Feb 4, 2020)

And I know a lot of people are like "why bother with the low grades?" Throw them away, sell to local yard for 2¢ ect. But they represent a larger bulk of the boards from generic, random, all sorts electronics, and collecting enough gold content boards to make worthwhile is going to necessitate indiscrimantly collect and breakdown large quantities of all kinds of electronics, (most of the boards I encounter get left behind or throw out cuz they're tied up in something like a printer, that isn't immediately saleable and labor intensive to dissemble, plus hoarding gold content boards to ship to buyer, means a long term investment of space, time, and labor until I can reach a volume worth shipping, interim income from low grade boards become vital to keep up with labor


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## anachronism (Feb 4, 2020)

I'm right there with you on the low grade stuff. 

If you get enough of it then sure, max out what you can get.


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## Kaiser613 (Feb 4, 2020)

I cobbled together a rough but fairly concise process (on paper) that should work for me, may work for others and is probably pretty close to how industrial board processors handle this material, except I'm seeking to do so with the least expense in not only labor but also equipment overhead (so exactly like industrial, lol)

1. Rip off largest, heaviest components with hand tools, in this grade that means , aluminum extrusion heatsinks, aluminum can capacitors, transformers, inductors, and connectors and plugs, the 2 aluminum products, can be sold locally basically as is,(I haven't attempted selling the capacitors as Al breakage yet but im only expecting minimal resistance from local yards, my main buyer has their own breakage mill so theyre pretty tolerant) the transformers inductors and connectors (by which I mean only the largest, typically rca and coax onboard connectors) can all be milled in house, I've been using a 2.5hp electric chipper shredder for this and for this specific waste stream it works pretty well, but anything larger and it bogs down, I'm planning to remove the motor and use it to drive a much simpler (and hopefully more efficient and tolerant) ball mill, to process whole boards. Which the copper from these larger components is heavy enough that it wads together and is easily removed from the remainder metal portion which is almost all brass, minor steel contam for the magnet
2. Mill whole boards to pass, maybe an 1/16 inch screen, by that size 99% of metal should be liberated, even the copper/brass wire inside small resistors, I think, have to test. It's going to be milled too small for an air separator, so I'll be putting together a shaker table (also called a Miller's table)0to separate out nonmetal portion with recirculating water
3. Separate ferrous portion with magnet (I have electromagnets from magnetic drill presses, was planning to build a mag cross belt once I find some conveyor material) this could also be done before the shaker table, that might work better
4. Place non-ferrous metal portion in casters hotpot to melt and remove solder portion, may have to rig some mechanical means of "pressing" liquid solder from "sponge" of high melting metals, depending on solder content
5. Monde process https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process
To remove nickel, and may potential remove a number of other valuable metal like chromium. The chemistry and mechanics seem fairly simple, it does involve some extremely toxic chemicals but only as a transitional state, the nickel carbonyl gas that is, it isn't released as a waste, it's reduced back to CO by the end, other than that it sounds like a syngas or woodgas breathing Mercury still, there's more going on chemically but if done properly, it won't matter
5. The last step would be the electrolytic cell


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## g_axelsson (Feb 5, 2020)

First of all, forget about the Mond process, nickel carbonyl is acutely toxic, one mistake is all it takes and as wikipedia noted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_tetracarbonyl


> Nickel carbonyl may be fatal if absorbed through the skin or more likely, inhaled due to its high volatility. Its LC50 for a 30-minute exposure has been estimated at 3 ppm, and the concentration that is immediately fatal to humans would be 30 ppm. Some subjects exposed to puffs up to 5 ppm described the odour as musty or sooty, but because the compound is so exceedingly toxic, its smell provides no reliable warning against a potentially fatal exposure.



Just don't do it! Anyhow, you need to have the material in a fine powder form for the gas to be able to react so it's impractical even if it was safe, which it isn't.

Just do as the big boys, let it concentrate in the electrolyte and get it out by crystallization of the nickel sulfate.

Göran


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## g_axelsson (Feb 5, 2020)

Thipdar said:


> Running 3v and 1 KW means 333 AMPS in the circuit.
> Running 1v and 1 KW means 1,000 AMPS in the circuit.
> 
> If someone gets electrocuted, one-tenth to two-tenths of an amp is usually fatal.
> ...



Lethal amperage is even less than that if you get it across your chest, stopping the heart. But you need a high voltage to push a high current through a body.
A truck battery could easily deliver 1000 amps if you drop your wrench across the poles. Electric welders could easily deliver hundreds of amperes continuously, but both are considered to be safe to handle without any safety equipment as the voltage is so low.

The only danger from a transformer capable of delivering 1000A at 3 volts is explosion and arcing if you short circuit it, it's still 3 kW of power.
There are no electric shock hazards on the low voltage side as long as you keep away from open hearth surgery where a normal AAA battery could kill you.

For someone that have worked with electricity in one form or another for the last 50 years, electrically it's safe as long as you don't cross the wires without a load in series.

Göran


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## Kaiser613 (Feb 5, 2020)

Thanks for your reply, I had questioned that aspect of the high amperage warning, I thought extra-low (even fractional) voltage would negate a lot of the danger, that said, any cell I build will have pretty strict safety precautions , not only for myself and anyone who understand what it is, but I'll also have to place some kind of enclosure around it to protect anyone ignorant of its purpose from walking up and say.. dipping they're hand in it.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 5, 2020)

My recommendation is to just set up a small cell with a variable power supply capable of deliver just a few amperes. Adjust the size of your anode and cathode to match the current density for a copper cell. Make some electrolyte and play with it a while using pure copper anodes. This will give you an idea of how a working cell might behave and problems you might run into like polarization, uneven deposition, uneven erosion of the anode...
You will find out that even a simple cell is hard to control.

Next step is to make some of your anodes based on the scrap you plan to run. Now the difficulty to control the cell is increased. If you doesn't get rid of the base metals you will foul the electrolyte in no time. The big boys are melting electronic scrap in large furnaces and then blows oxygen through it. Zinc is boiling off while base metals like iron, lead, tin and aluminium ends up in the slag for further treatment. The raw copper is mostly copper with a bit of nickel and trace amounts of precious metals. So the anodes they run is over 95% Cu. The electrolyte is constantly tapped off and purified from nickel, then returned back as fresh electrolyte. By keeping close track of the parameters of the cells they can run hundreds or even thousands of cells in series.

Resistance is just what it sounds like, resistance to let the current through. The higher the resistance the higher the voltage needed to let a certain current through. Since current is the same thing as electrons the current going into in any point in a circuit is equal to the current going out. Look at a cable, at any point the current coming in from one side is the same that continues out on the other side.
If you connects several cells in series then the current going through the first cell is the same as the current going through the last one. The only thing that can vary is the voltage over each cell.

Le's do an example. We have six ideal cells that have the resistance of 2 ohm and we have a power supply capable of deliver 12V and 100A.
If we connect all the cells in series then the 12 V will split up evenly since the resistance is equal, giving us a cell voltage of 12/6 = 2V. The resistance is 2 ohm so the current is 2V / 2 ohm = 1A. So even while the power supply is capable of deliver 100A, we will only draw 1A.

We could do the calculation in another way too, just add up the resistance in series, 2x6 = 12 ohm. The power supply delivers 12V so the current is 12V/12 ohm = 1A. The individual cell voltage is 1A x 2 ohm = 2 V.

Now something happens with one cell, the resistance goes up to 4 ohm. Maybe the material of the anode is a bit different. The easiest way to calculate what happens is to add the resistances togeteher again, 5x2+4=14 ohm, so the current drops a bit to 12/14 A. The cell voltages changes accordingly, 2 ohm * 12/14 A = 12'/7 V = 1.71 V and 4*12/14 = 3.42V
The voltage increased in the cell that got a higher resistance, the voltage drops in the other cells and the current drops for all cells.
In the same way if we get a lower resistance in one cell, the voltage and current increases in the other cells while the voltage drops and the current increases in the faulty cell.

So, yes, you can run several cells in series but you need to monitor the cells closely and control the parameters.

I spot a number of other problems in your plan. For example you won't be able to just heat the source material and squeeze out the lead and tin. It will alloy and mix with the other stuff.
In theory a lot of things will work, but only if the theory is too simple. A theory will get more and more complex when you add in real world stuff and when it matches the real world it will show you that there are a lot of problems that the initial simple theory didn't show.

Göran


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## Thipdar (Feb 5, 2020)

g_axelsson said:


> Thipdar said:
> 
> 
> > Running 3v and 1 KW means 333 AMPS in the circuit.
> ...



I have worked with a variety of odd electrical systems.
I've witnessed a 200KV corona that arc-ed over due to humidity.
I've seen the results of a load test failure that melted and burnt 1KV power cables.
I've maintained 400 hertz Alternating Current electrical power systems.
I talked with a man that lost his ring finger when his wedding band welded itself to the wrench he was using.
I've also witnessed lightening touching down above me, below me and at the same elevation as me (fortunately, I wasn't hit). The sound of lightening bolts dopplering in and the actinic after-flash was interesting, but I don't need to ever see or hear that again.
I was also (peripherally) involved in the debut of Jellypuss at Ephemerisle in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08lbCePbTx8

I've come to conclude that safety is hugely important.
It isn't the voltage that kills, it's the amperage.
You don't have to have high voltage to get "enough to kill", you just need enough voltage to pass a fatal current through the body.

I agree with you that Kaiser should start small, then work up. I would hope that he also "works his safety systems up" along the way.

-- Thipdar


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## Thipdar (Feb 5, 2020)

Kaiser613 said:


> Thanks for your reply, I had questioned that aspect of the high amperage warning, I thought extra-low (even fractional) voltage would negate a lot of the danger, that said, any cell I build will have pretty strict safety precautions , not only for myself and anyone who understand what it is, but I'll also have to place some kind of enclosure around it to protect anyone ignorant of its purpose from walking up and say.. dipping they're hand in it.



It isn't the voltage that kills, it's the amperage.
To complete a circuit, you need three things: voltage, current and resistance.
You body acts as the resistance.
The current is what kills you.
If you increase the voltage, once you get past a threshold it doesn't make much difference; you won't get "more dead". All you really need is enough of a voltage to pass that current.

If you are going to erect an enclosure, please consider building a lockable Faraday Cage, so that if any of the voltages go where they aren't supposed to, they will be safely shunted to ground by the cage.

Your bigger issue may be in avoiding having growing conductive crystals short between your anodes and cathodes. If you have cells in series, one crystal that shorts between anode and cathode should blow a fuse (or circuit breaker) - but that would interrupt power to your entire series of cells. If that happens, it's probably time to check your crystalline growth in all of the cells (because they're probably about to short as well).

I'm not saying you shouldn't do this, I just want you to be really careful about it.

-- Thipdar


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## g_axelsson (Feb 5, 2020)

Thipdar, you are just wrong.

The risk for being electrocuted by the 3V side of a 1 kA power supply is less than handling a 9V transistor battery. 

No matter how many lightning strikes have closely hit you doesn't change that fact and if you continue press that point then you only prove that you have no idea of how electricity really works.

By the way, my latest toy (got it on Friday) is a 6 kW electron beam melter / evaporator. Nice toy, 12 kV at 0.5 A in a turbo pumped vacuum chamber.

Göran


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## Thipdar (Feb 6, 2020)

g_axelsson said:


> Thipdar, you are just wrong.
> 
> The risk for being electrocuted by the 3V side of a 1 kA power supply is less than handling a 9V transistor battery.
> 
> ...



I do know a little bit about electricity. I've been experimenting with it most of my life.

I've had to deal with a building full of charged one-farad electrolytic capacitors (each one having about four gallons of electrolyte), and another building nearby that had 1,200 diesel truck batteries arranged in three banks of series-parallel storage units and 18,000 180,000 micro-farad electrolytic capacitors, also arranged in three banks of series-parallel (and with each capacitor protected by a fuse, diode and a 1-megohm bleed-off resistor).

I've experienced an electromagnetic field that was strong enough to temporarily stop a digital watch.

I understand there are many misconceptions about lightning.
It doesn't always strike the highest point. I've seen it strike at multiple elevations in a canyon within a few minutes. Some of those strikes were below where I was hiking.
It doesn't always travel from the sky to ground.
It doesn't always travel from the ground to the sky.
Sometimes it travels from cloud to cloud without ever reaching the ground.
It does sometimes strike the same place repeatedly.
When lightning strikes an aircraft in flight, the skin of the airplane isn't usually the "path of least resistance".
A friend of mine told me he was hit twice by the same lightening bolt - once from the fingertip to his elbow, then from his hip to his ankle. He actually had an arc from his elbow to his hip and from his ankle to ground.
I know that being hit by lightning isn't always fatal. In addition to my friend's experience, I was able to hear Roy Cleveland Sullivan being interviewed about his experiences.

Misusing a power supply isn't always fatal either. But if the potential is there and the current is there, then there is the potential for death.

I'm just glad that the mistakes I made as a electrician and as an electronics technician were relatively minor.

Based on my *professional* experience, I still think the original poster should implement "industrial strength" safety protocols.

-- Thipdar


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## g_axelsson (Feb 8, 2020)

Yeah, yeah, yeah... that sounds impressive, but what does lightning strikes have to do with a 12V 1kA power supply? Just because it's electricity it doesn't pose the same kind of hazards.

If you have a high power low voltage power supply the only danger it poses is short circuits that can burn wires and weld things together. It doesn't pose a shock hazard.

You need the same precautions that you need when handling car batteries or jumper cables. You also need a way to turn on and off the power in a safe way, just unplugging a cable passing a 1000 amp will arc and spit a lot of molten metal in an instance. So common sense does apply, don't pour electrolyte onto the power supply, check connection regularly so a connection point doesn't get corroded or loosening up. A thermal camera is a great device to find trouble spots ahead of time.

Göran


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## geedigity (Feb 8, 2020)

As Göran stated, low voltage at high amps is not as dangerous as high voltage low amps. Realize that low amps doesn't mean much since it is relative to what the source could provide. 

*Low voltage high current*
Think about how many times you connected a 12 volt (or even 6 volt back in the day) car battery to the negative and positive terminals. A 12 volt car battery could theoretically be able to deliver 1,000,000 amps, but that would not change the fact that connecting the terminals together won't shock you. There will be a spark if you connect the battery backwards, but you won't get electrocuted or electrically shocked. You may burn out components in the car, get burned from the sparks or exploding battery, or get shocked (meaning, taken by surprise), but you wouldn't get electrically shocked.

*High voltage low amperage*
Self generated static electricity is high voltage (say 25k volts) but very low current (just small amount of electrons). No chance of dying there. 

Increase the electric potential (voltage) and increase the risk of getting shocked. Even 120 volts at 60 hertz (standard source voltage in US residences), although can electrically shock a person, unlikely it will kill. Step up the potential to 480 volts, different story, that can easily kill.

There are always exceptions to what I said above, but in general with respect to the application the OP was referring to, low risk of getting shocked and even a lower risk injuring oneself. Of course, there are folks out there that do not practice any safety, so I guess anything is possible. 

For what it is worth, I fiddle around with 15k volt power supplies that can each deliver 60 milliamps sustained. That can absolutely shock the heck out of you. When I operate the supplies, work on a non-conductive surface with non-metal shanked shoes, never use two hands and use a deadman switch (a switch that I have to physically press down and hold in order to operate the supplies). Using the deadman switch doesn't mean I'll live, it just increases the chance the power to the supplies will be cut and increases my chances of survival somewhat because the source would not continue to flow through me causing more damage to organs, etc.


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## Thipdar (Feb 9, 2020)

g_axelsson said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah... that sounds impressive, but what does lightning strikes have to do with a 12V 1kA power supply? Just because it's electricity it doesn't pose the same kind of hazards.
> 
> If you have a high power low voltage power supply the only danger it poses is short circuits that can burn wires and weld things together. It doesn't pose a shock hazard.
> 
> ...



Your "electron beam melter" sounds impressive too.

Would you operate it without reading the operations manual? Would you disregard the safety warnings?

Would you argue with me if I urged you to operate it safely?

You have misconstrued several of my statements in this thread.



Thipdar said:


> It isn't the voltage that kills, it's the amperage.
> To complete a circuit, you need three things: voltage, current and resistance.
> You body acts as the resistance.
> The current is what kills you.
> If you increase the voltage, once you get past a threshold it doesn't make much difference; you won't get "more dead". All you really need is enough of a voltage to pass that current.



You countered this with an example regarding a 3V power supply vs. a 9V battery (neither of which I mentioned). Assuming, for the sake of your argument, that both could produce a fatal amount of current during an electrocution, my claim still stands: if you are dead at 3V, you don't get any "more dead" at 9V.



g_axelsson said:


> The risk for being electrocuted by the 3V side of a 1 kA power supply is less than handling a 9V transistor battery.



I am inclined to agree, at least under most conditions. There are exceptional conditions that could invalidate your claim.



g_axelsson said:


> No matter how many lightning strikes have closely hit you doesn't change that fact and if you continue press that point then you only prove that you have no idea of how electricity really works.



You seem to have missed the fact that my mention of lightning was incidental to my point. Let me bring it to your direct attention; here's the important part of that post:



Thipdar said:


> You don't have to have high voltage to get "enough to kill", you just need enough voltage to pass a fatal current through the body.



By the way, having a current go through a person's heart isn't the only way that electrocution can kill (but it is probably the most common). That's why I mentioned "through the body". I acknowledge that a "fatal current" might pass through a body without killing someone (if it takes a non-fatal pathway).



g_axelsson said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah... that sounds impressive, but what does lightning strikes have to do with a 12V 1kA power supply? Just because it's electricity it doesn't pose the same kind of hazards.



Again, you missed the point. Mention of some of my amateur and professional experiences was intended to disprove your implication that I am ignorant of electricity.



g_axelsson said:


> For someone that have worked with electricity in one form or another for the last 50 years...



And this makes you an authority? For what it's worth, I've been dealing with electricity for longer than you claim to have. I don't claim to be a "greater authority", though, because "Appeal to Authority" is a fallacy.

Rather than barking and growling at each other, I'd like to suggest that we stick to addressing the issues brought up in the original post.

-- Thipdar


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## anachronism (Feb 9, 2020)

You'd rather we stuck to the issues originally brought up in the thread AFTER you've had your say of course. :lol:


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## g_axelsson (Feb 9, 2020)

Thipdar said:


> Your "electron beam melter" sounds impressive too.
> 
> Would you operate it without reading the operations manual? Would you disregard the safety warnings?
> 
> Would you argue with me if I urged you to operate it safely?


I have read the manual and I believe the safety warnings in it, for example use the 1/2 meter grounding pole to discharge any metal surface before touching it.

And yes, I would argue with you if you gave bad advice.



Kaiser613 said:


> Trying to find a cheap adjustable power supply that goes below, 3v AND can handle a KW of load (that's the scale I'm planning for my purposes) is frustrating me so I was wondering if placing multiple cells in series from a 6v or 12v fixed voltage power supply would be fruitful solution.





Thipdar said:


> Running 3v and 1 KW means 333 AMPS in the circuit.
> Running 1v and 1 KW means 1,000 AMPS in the circuit.
> 
> If someone gets electrocuted, one-tenth to two-tenths of an amp is usually fatal.
> ...



Yes, 100 mA AC is usually fatal. For DC it's not as bad but getting worse the longer you keep that current going. You don't get the same cramps that doesn't let you to let go.

Body resistance vary with voltage, higher voltages breaks down the resistance of the skin and lets more current through (see table 1 in the report).
At 25V the usual resistance is about 2200 ohm or more, giving a current of 25/2200 = 11 mA which for DC is hardly noticeable. This is measured from one hand standing barefooted with both feet on a grounded surface.
You need a certain voltage to push a current through a resistance (body). If the voltage isn't there it doesn't matter if the possible amperage is 1A (a 9 volt transistor battery) or 1000 A as in this example.

At 1 V or 3V the risk of getting "electrocuted" should be about zero.

Since you don't believe me, here is the first report that I found that deals with safety and DC voltage.
https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system/files/media/asa_standards/2017/ep-00-00-00-08-sp.pdf

Okay Thipdar, your turn. How do you get electrocuted by a 1V 1000 A power supply under normal conditions?

Göran


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## Thipdar (Feb 10, 2020)

g_axelsson said:


> I have read the manual and I believe the safety warnings in it, for example use the 1/2 meter grounding pole to discharge any metal surface before touching it.


Gee, that seems like an "industrial-strength safety precaution"... *scratching head* ...didn't I advise someone to take "industrial-strength safety precautions" elsewhere in this thread?



g_axelsson said:


> And yes, I would argue with you if you gave bad advice.


I get the feeling that you'd argue, regardless.



g_axelsson said:


> Yes, 100 mA AC is usually fatal. For DC it's not as bad but getting worse the longer you keep that current going. You don't get the same cramps that doesn't let you to let go.


This seems backwards. DC electrocution doesn't allow the muscles the opportunity to relax (so that a person can "let go"). Lower-frequency AC does allow these transient rest periods. When you move up the frequency scales, say to 400 Hertz AC, the opportunities for the muscles to relax are so short that they are ineffective; the electrocution acts as DC instead. This is the reason I mentioned my experience in working with 400 Hertz power systems.



g_axelsson said:


> Okay Thipdar, your turn. How do you get electrocuted by a 1V 1000 A power supply under normal conditions?
> 
> Göran



Simple. Remove, override or bypass any of the resistance-causing conditions that were assumed in the report you cited. Replace them with assumed conditions that correlate to trivial resistance values (but which still might occur under normal conditions).

For example, a gold or gold plated watch band on a sweaty wrist could cause a painful electrocution. In my case, the watch band was stainless steel and the power supply was five volts DC, but when I reacted, my watch went flying down the production line and I put six parallel cuts on the back of my hand because I scraped it on the solder side of a circuit board. Fortunately, my flying watch didn't injure anyone. That experience was one of the reasons I quit regularly wearing jewelry.

-- Thipdar


----------



## anachronism (Feb 10, 2020)

Thipdar said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, I would argue with you if you gave bad advice.
> ...



Although Goran doesn't need me to fight his corner I can confirm (as many others could also confirm) that's he's probably one of the least argumentative people on this forum.


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 10, 2020)

anachronism said:


> You'd rather we stuck to the issues originally brought up in the thread AFTER you've had your say of course. :lol:



Of course.

There's no reason for me to offer an olive branch if I appear to be trying to negotiate from a position of weakness.


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 10, 2020)

anachronism said:


> Thipdar said:
> 
> 
> > g_axelsson said:
> ...



I'm happy to take that under advisement. From what I've seen in other parts of this forum, he does seem knowledgeable and willing to share his advice.

However, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that I haven't yet cast aspersions upon his professional experience, but that he *has* disparaged mine. His dismissal of my professional experience was arrogant and completely uncalled for. Further, it appeared to be a result of his inability or unwillingness to rebut my examples that disprove (at least some of) his claims.

-- Thipdar


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## anachronism (Feb 10, 2020)

Thipdar said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > You'd rather we stuck to the issues originally brought up in the thread AFTER you've had your say of course. :lol:
> ...



That's not quite what you did there. What you did was make your own points and then you attempted to shut down the discourse. 

From your other point I note the wording - namely "I haven't yet cast aspersions on his professional experience" which implies that you are going to to do so. He wasn't arrogant, he disagreed with you, and he called you out as wrong. Disagreement and the expression of disagreement is till not arrogance or abuse even in this over PC world we are allowing to happen to us. 

People disagree with me all the time- and on occasion I'm wrong. Funny that. You could have handled that situation a lot better you know, and trust me I could actually be classed as having professional knowledge of learning how to handle situations better so take that from me. 8) 8) 

You could at least get a feel for the place before picking silly arguments and getting so overly defensive.


----------



## galenrog (Feb 10, 2020)

I am more blunt than Anachronism. I suggest, Thipdar, that you cool your jets a bit. It is my opinion that if you do not take a few steps back, your arrogance may cause you to self destruct on this forum.

I come here for knowledge, to learn from the experience of others. Reading your posts, in their totality, tells me that you have some knowledge to be shared. I suggest you concentrate on that. 

I also note that when someone disagrees with you, you seem to take it personally. Disagreements on this forum can be opportunities to improve our knowledge and experience. Please do not take the other road.

Time for more coffee.


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 10, 2020)

anachronism said:


> Thipdar said:
> 
> 
> > anachronism said:
> ...



Actually, what I tried to do was nudge the traffic back on topic. That offer was refused.



anachronism said:


> From your other point I note the wording - namely "I haven't yet cast aspersions on his professional experience" which implies that you are going to to do so.



I would do so if I deemed it were warranted. So far, I have seen no reason to do so, and, truthfully, I doubt I will ever be as accomplished of a chemist as he seems to be.



anachronism said:


> He wasn't arrogant, he disagreed with you, and he called you out as wrong. Disagreement and the expression of disagreement is till not arrogance or abuse even in this over PC world we are allowing to happen to us.



His disagreement was forceful, but it was his *dismissal of my professional experience* that was arrogant. Please note the distinction. His implication that I know nothing of electricity was ignorant, and when I attempted to qualify my background, he waved it away as if it didn't matter.



anachronism said:


> People disagree with me all the time- and on occasion I'm wrong. Funny that. You could have handled that situation a lot better you know, and trust me I could actually be classed as having professional knowledge of learning how to handle situations better so take that from me. 8) 8)



I have spent decades attempting to learn how to communicate in an accurate, clear and effective manner. When my meanings are misconstrued, I almost always try to reply in an effort to correct the misunderstanding. All too often, those efforts are interpreted as "confrontational" rather than "clarifying". That won't cause me to stop trying.



anachronism said:


> You could at least get a feel for the place before picking silly arguments and getting so overly defensive.



It doesn't look to me like I picked an argument; I was handed one. I urged safety and was... let's say "fertilized" for it. Yeah, I'm getting a real good feel for this place. Regardless of that aspect, I have been learning what I'm seeking - despite people apparently thinking that newbies are ignorant.

My philosophy has been oscillating between Sun Tzu and Epictitus (possibly with some Socrates and Gadsden thrown into the mix).

-- Thipdar


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## Thipdar (Feb 10, 2020)

galenrog said:


> I am more blunt than Anachronism. I suggest, Thipdar, that you cool your jets a bit. It is my opinion that if you do not take a few steps back, your arrogance may cause you to self destruct on this forum.
> 
> I come here for knowledge, to learn from the experience of others. Reading your posts, in their totality, tells me that you have some knowledge to be shared. I suggest you concentrate on that.
> 
> ...



There's a time to be blunt, and there's a time to use some finesse.

I've also come here for knowledge. I want to fill a couple or three holes in my hobby experiences.

I was trying to share a safety warning here, based on my personal experiences. I got stomped on for it.

It may seem like I take things personally, but in actuality, I try to "check my facts" in a couple of ways before I actually argue with someone. It leads to me doing a lot of esoteric background research, which I find fascinating, but it doesn't get overtly communicated at the debate podium.

I've been online for a long time (even if I haven't been registered here for long). I understand how much miscommunication there is online. The most appropriate description I even heard about the effectiveness of 'flame wars' accurate, but offensive and I won't repeat it.

By the way, the best tip I've got for coffee is "If you grind your own beans, throw some cinnamon in with the beans the next time you grind some up. If ground cinnamon plugs your coffee filter, use some stick cinnamon instead."

-- Thipdar


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## jimdoc (Feb 10, 2020)

4.5 posts a day for your first two weeks on a new forum like this is excessive. You should be reading and learning instead of trying to impress everyone. People like you used to get banned in a heartbeat in the old days. You really should chill out.


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## Thipdar (Feb 13, 2020)

jimdoc said:


> 4.5 posts a day for your first two weeks on a new forum like this is excessive. You should be reading and learning instead of trying to impress everyone. People like you used to get banned in a heartbeat in the old days. You really should chill out.



For what it's worth, I've been reading about 200 posts a day while here.
I haven't come here to impress anyone, I'm here to learn about refining silver, copper and gold.
Sorry if I haven't lived up to your expectations, I didn't know that was a requirement here.

-- Thipdar


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## kurtak (Feb 13, 2020)

Thipdar

You are no where near as cool &/or as smart as you THINK you are - you don't even really want to debate - you simply want to argue & whether wrong or right you are willing to argue to prove YOUR SELF right (even when you are wrong

IMO - that makes you an ASS (how is that for blunt)

We used to ban people like you (for being an ass) in the past you would already be gone (for being an ass)

Though we are more tolerant these days - if you continue to be an ass - you still may find your self getting ban (& IMO he should be)

Personally - because of your combative intent/motive to argue for the sake of arguing I will no longer read ANYTHING you post - nor will I EVER reply to anything you post 

YOU are NOT worth my time

Kurt


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## Thipdar (Feb 13, 2020)

kurtak said:


> Thipdar
> 
> You are no where near as cool &/or as smart as you THINK you are - you don't even really want to debate - you simply want to argue & whether wrong or right you are willing to argue to prove YOUR SELF right (even when you are wrong
> 
> ...



I didn't come here to argue. I didn't come here to be abused or bullied either.

I have no "combative intent", but there are some things that do provoke me. I'd be delighted if they'd stop, since I have more important things to do. Setting the records straight has cut into my reading time here.

I do not argue for the sake of arguing; I argue for the sake of accuracy. If I had wanted to argue for the sake of arguing, I'd have stayed on Quora.

I've come to the Gold Refining Forum in an effort to learn without having to die trying. My resolution for this year is to stop spending as much time in front of the computer, and to start making things more often. To accomplish that end, I will be refining silver, copper and gold, then making my own alloys in order to accomplish the art and jewelry projects I've planned.

I've sworn an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. That means I will protect your right to express your opinion.

-- Thipdar


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## anachronism (Feb 13, 2020)

That's a great attitude. You do exactly that. Spend less time on here and go refine some gold. Abuse? Behave yourself and learn some self awareness please.


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## Thipdar (Feb 14, 2020)

anachronism said:


> That's a great attitude. You do exactly that. Spend less time on here and go refine some gold. Abuse? Behave yourself and learn some self awareness please.



Can you point out where my actions in this thread have been proactive, rather than reactive?

-- Thipdar


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## kurtak (Feb 14, 2020)

Hmmmm

Sadly this thread has become a total waste of time

Why ?

Because the OPs question have never been answered

Instead it has become an argument by Mr. "I Am Right" - even though he is in FACT wrong

Now he wants to argue that he is right to argue - even though his (starting) argument is wrong

consequently - I - the OP - &/or no one else has learned anything about setting up a cell as proposed by the OP

It has been a total waste of time now & for members in the future that come looking for an answer to the OPs questions

How much longer are we going to put up with this Mr. "I Am Right"

There was a time when we DID NOT put up with such B.S.

Kurt


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## Shark (Feb 14, 2020)

I would like to make a suggestion (again) for future references. When looking for knowledge on this forum take a quick glace to the right of each post and notice how long a person has been a member and how many posts they have made. This gives you a good idea of where to start learning from those who have been around the longest. As Kurt mentioned, in the past argumentative people didn't last very long at all and still don't by the sheer reaction of many of the member's even now. If your here to learn, read, use follow up studies, and ask when you can't find the answer or even just need clarification on an answer. Over time you become one of the older members who have shown and earned respect for their knowledge. It boils down to respecting your elder's, and that means the length of time and useful posts a member has provided here not how old they are. 

OK I am done with soap box.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 14, 2020)

I've move the entire thread that originated in the Electrochemistry section of the forum here, leaving the few helpful, on-topic posts in the original thread.

I hope that everyone has gotten everything out of their systems. I understand there are those who would moderate this forum differently, swinging the ban hammer more readily. I've also been here long enough to see good members banned under that policy. For those who long for those "good old days", remember that some members who posted in this thread would no longer be here.

Let's get back to helping each other and discuss refining.

Dave


----------



## anachronism (Feb 14, 2020)

Since you've opened that box let's go there. 

There's only one member posting on this thread who would not have still been here in the old regime and that's me. My comments on this thread were also the most reasoned- probably the only reason you haven't been able to directly single me out yet again however the inference (which you told me you hated people doing) is there. 

Where I agree with you is things were too authoritarian before. That given there is such a thing as the pendulum swinging too far the other way.


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## Shark (Feb 14, 2020)

Jon, don't forget some of the harsh comments I made to you in the past. They could have gotten me banned as well. Thankfully that is over now. 

Onward and upwards. The past is the past.


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## anachronism (Feb 14, 2020)

Shark said:


> Jon, don't forget some of the harsh comments I made to you in the past. They could have gotten me banned as well. Thankfully that is over now.
> 
> Onward and upwards. The past is the past.



That's ok I'm an acquired taste" mate. I still hate you so don't worry :lol: :lol:


----------



## snoman701 (Feb 14, 2020)

anachronism said:


> Shark said:
> 
> 
> > Jon, don't forget some of the harsh comments I made to you in the past. They could have gotten me banned as well. Thankfully that is over now.
> ...



I don't know what flavor that is, but I'm sure it's pickled.


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 14, 2020)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I've move the entire thread that originated in the Electrochemistry section of the forum here, leaving the few helpful, on-topic posts in the original thread.
> 
> I hope that everyone has gotten everything out of their systems. I understand there are those who would moderate this forum differently, swinging the ban hammer more readily. I've also been here long enough to see good members banned under that policy. For those who long for those "good old days", remember that some members who posted in this thread would no longer be here.
> 
> ...



Thank you.

I believe this approach will resolve an irritation that was bothering me: staying on-topic.

I don't believe I've ever seen this approach used in any of the discussion forums I've moderated previously. I hope I won't forget this option if I am again asked to moderate a forum. Thanks for the education.

-- Thipdar


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## anachronism (Feb 14, 2020)

Thipdar

I won't use the word that Kurt used. If I did I would be banned (again) because the utter bias of our some of our current moderators is astounding. All I would say is that your input is paltry and insignificant at best, and that your reaction and entitlement to being criticized exposes not only your lack of resilience but the shortfall we currently enjoy with regards to objective policing.

For you to thank our moderating team for their response says more than I can say.


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## Shark (Feb 14, 2020)

snoman701 said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > Shark said:
> ...




Nothing wrong with an occasional pickling, some even claim it will purify if it is only a flawed surface, :lol:


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 17, 2020)

Shark said:


> I would like to make a suggestion (again) for future references. When looking for knowledge on this forum take a quick glace to the right of each post and notice how long a person has been a member and how many posts they have made. This gives you a good idea of where to start learning from those who have been around the longest. As Kurt mentioned, in the past argumentative people didn't last very long at all and still don't by the sheer reaction of many of the member's even now. If your here to learn, read, use follow up studies, and ask when you can't find the answer or even just need clarification on an answer. Over time you become one of the older members who have shown and earned respect for their knowledge. It boils down to respecting your elder's, and that means the length of time and useful posts a member has provided here not how old they are.
> 
> OK I am done with soap box.



Shark, I've read a bunch of posts that you've written and your advice usually seems sound.

This post doesn't measure up to your usual quality.

The idea that durability in this forum leads to better advice is wrong for at least two reasons - even if the topic is limited to refining.

First of all, it assumes that there is no other place to gain experience and expertise other than here. It's possible to have an advanced degree and decades of commercial experience when a person registers on this forum for the first time.

Secondly, even if it were the case that this is the only place to learn about refining, people learn at different rates. Someone that hasn't been here long might learn faster (and become expert sooner) than someone that has been here for ages.

Good advice is just that (regardless of how long a member has been registered on a forum).

-- Thipdar


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## jimdoc (Feb 17, 2020)

Not surprised at all.


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## Thipdar (Feb 17, 2020)

kurtak said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> Sadly this thread has become a total waste of time
> 
> ...



You seem to have overlooked a couple of points.

My original contribution to this thread was to urge for safety.
Then Goran told me I was wrong.
He also made a claim that was wrong: "But you need a high voltage to push a high current through a body.". (You don't; all you need is an adequate voltage - which he admitted later).
He also made some other claims that were either marginal or wrong.
I refuted one of them and again urged for safety.
Then Goran told me I was wrong again and impugned my professional experience, apparently in violation of the posted "Board Policy".
I attempted to qualify my professional experience and he (rather cavalierly) dismissed it as being unimportant.
So I commented point-by-point, both agreeing on some stuff and disagreeing on some stuff.
Then I suggested that we return to the original topic.
Goran didn't see fit to let it go, and offered me a challenge that I readily accepted - and illustrated with a 'real-life' incident from my background.

Meanwhile, I've been Insulted, called names, misinterpreted and given unneeded advice.

What's been overlooked is that I've agreed with some of the things that have been posted.

I haven't seen anyone give me credit for attempting to remain moderate and respectful; the change from pacifist to aggressive didn't happen until I'd been repeatedly provoked.

From where I sit, it looks like several members of this forum got upset (I was going to say "butthurt", but slang seems to be discouraged by the "Board Policy", so I will use the less inflammatory word), all because I was able to stand up for myself.

That isn't a very good recommendation for this forum.

-- Thipdar


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## jimdoc (Feb 17, 2020)

What did we ever do without you. Now we will all become experts at everything with you to guide us.


----------



## Shark (Feb 17, 2020)

Thipdar said:


> Shark said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to make a suggestion (again) for future references. When looking for knowledge on this forum take a quick glace to the right of each post and notice how long a person has been a member and how many posts they have made. This gives you a good idea of where to start learning from those who have been around the longest. As Kurt mentioned, in the past argumentative people didn't last very long at all and still don't by the sheer reaction of many of the member's even now. If your here to learn, read, use follow up studies, and ask when you can't find the answer or even just need clarification on an answer. Over time you become one of the older members who have shown and earned respect for their knowledge. It boils down to respecting your elder's, and that means the length of time and useful posts a member has provided here not how old they are.
> ...


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 17, 2020)

jimdoc said:


> What did we ever do without you. Now we will all become experts at everything with you to guide us.



My advice is to try to inquire what qualifications a newbie might have that would bear on the topic being discussed.

Acknowledging that they might have some expertise in a matter might avoid the embarrassment of "shooting yourself in the foot".

You should be able to do that even if I'm not here.

-- Thipdar


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## jimdoc (Feb 17, 2020)

Some people that think they are full of expertise are full of asspertise.


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## kurtak (Feb 18, 2020)

jimdoc said:


> Some people that think they are full of expertise are full of asspertise.



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Or as Harold would say ----------

Wise people talk because the have something to say --- FOOLS talk because they HAVE to say something :twisted: :mrgreen:


----------



## kurtak (Feb 18, 2020)

Thipdar said:


> Based on my *professional* experience



Let talk about - "Professional experience"

I have worked as an electrician & MOST (like 95%) of it has been in industrial application 

I have built electrical control panels for fortune 5oo & fortune 200 companies

I have then installed those control panels in the control rooms - & then wired the panels from the control room to the rest of the plant

Somewhere on this forum I have posted picture of my control panels

One such company/plant I worked for (my brother - who is an industrial electrical engineer & was the contractor) was for an aluminum anodizing plant

This job happened in 4 stages over "several" years

Stage 1 was a complete shut & tear down & then complete rebuild of line 1

The second stage was the same as stage 1 except for line 2

The third stage was an all new build of new line 3

The forth stage was an all new build of line 4

Each line had at least 2 rows of tanks & as many as 4 rows of tanks

The tanks are about 20 foot long about 5 foot wide & about ten foot deep

in each row of tanks there is at least 1 sometimes 2 tanks that are electrolytic cells with tin anodes & the racks of aluminum being anodized are the cathodes 

these cells are run by rectifiers (DC power supplies) with the rectifiers being about 6 foot wide by ten foot long by 8 foot high with 3 transformers in each rectifier & each transformer is about 3000 pounds

The bus bars coming from these rectifiers are 6 - 8 inches wide & about 3/8 inch thick & stacked/bolted together adding up to being several inches thick

They are run from the rectifier to the cells FULLY EXPOSED (no insulation) - they are run from rectifier to tank/cell so that they protected by beams & other structure like pipe --- BUT they are other wise "fully exposed" - in other words - if you wanted - you could reach up & touch them

On the walk way where you walk between the tanks - and the buss bars come up connecting to the tanks/cell they are fully exposed & you could reach over & touch them

AND - that is because there is NO chance of being electrocuted :!: :!: :!: 


So Mr. I am right --- you are WRONG as in ABSOLUTELY WRONG

Kurt


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 19, 2020)

kurtak said:


> Thipdar said:
> 
> 
> > Based on my *professional* experience
> ...



You've misconstrued my meaning. The reason I emphasized "profesional" was in counterpoint to Goran's implication that I know nothing about electricity.

Secondly, it's hardly surprising that your professional experiences are different than mine.

Third, can you please tie this in closer to the safety procedures related to the hazards of electrocution? You haven't indicated what voltage/current/power was expected in your example (except to imply that the buss bars were designed for high ampacity). Please explain how and why the electrocution hazard in your example was reduced or eliminated. Also, it would be good to know if those same approaches could be implemented in the system that Kaiser is attempting to design.

Your opinion that I am wrong is your opinion, but I absolutely did get electrocuted on the production line. At 5VDC, the power source was not "high voltage", as Goran claimed is required. According to the report he cited, it shouldn't have happened - but it did.



Thipdar said:


> You don't have to have high voltage to get "enough to kill", you just need enough voltage to pass a fatal current through the body.



This hasn't changed.

--Thipdar


----------



## anachronism (Feb 19, 2020)

Thipdar.

You appear to be the type of guy who is used to making statements and never having them questioned. Have you ever worked in education? Either way you never don't like being wrong and waste a lot of time trying to prove you're right or setting out assertions that reduce the validity of someone's experience that doesn't suit your narrative. 

None of this would have happened if you hadn't jumped down Goran's throat the moment he disagreed with you. Your handling of that left a lot to be desired. 

Nobody on here apart from you has an issue with being wrong, and that's where the divide sits. You have expressed your disappointment with the contributions of all who have disagreed with you, even in the face of their experiences which you have on many occasions tried to devalue. 

Look I get that you are a person who for some reason feels that everyone else is wrong and you are correct but it's honestly not an appealing trait. This isn't a measuring contest it's a group of people who spend a lot of time being of assistance to one another and sharing ideas. The common denominator is that you don't agree with anyone else and you must be right at all costs.

Chemists have come here and tried to use stoichiometric calculations as to how refining should work and time over time a layman who has actually refined can clearly show that the qualified chemist is wrong in the real world.

Theorycrafting with regards to refining is (to use a quaint english word) bollocks and practical refining is everything. The same applies to the daft argument here. Practical reality over theory. 

If you can agree to differ instead of having a fortress mentality, then things can work. At the moment and as it stands it cannot. 

Regards

Jon


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## kurtak (Feb 19, 2020)

Aluminum Anodizing rectifiers

AC input side = three phase 480 volts 1,000 amps

DC output side = 18 volts 10,000 amps for 1,000 square foot of cathode

No time to post more right now have to head for work

Kurt


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 20, 2020)

anachronism said:


> None of this would have happened if you hadn't jumped down Goran's throat the moment he disagreed with you. Your handling of that left a lot to be desired.



Please take a look at this thread again.
I didn't "...jump down Goran's throat the moment he disagreed with..." (me).
My change from passive to aggressive happened after he implied I am ignorant of electricity.
(The truth is I'm ignorant of chemistry, which is mainly why I'm here).
When I tried to qualify my experiences, he dismissed them as trivial. That's inconsiderate (to say the least) and was possibly in conflict with the Board Policy.

Standing up for myself doesn't make me the Bad Guy here (even if it is unusual).



anachronism said:


> Look I get that you are a person who for some reason feels that everyone else is wrong and you are correct but it's honestly not an appealing trait.



Have you noticed that I also occasionally agree with people?
Have you noticed that there are times when I realize I have nothing substantial to contribute, and remain silent?
Have you noticed that the Board Policy doesn't require me to be anyone's personal punching bag?

-- Thipdar


----------



## Thipdar (Feb 20, 2020)

kurtak said:


> Aluminum Anodizing rectifiers
> 
> AC input side = three phase 480 volts 1,000 amps
> 
> ...



18 VDC potential.

That's small enough to qualify as less than the assumptions mentioned in IEC.479-1.
If I remember correctly, their claim is that regular "safety" work boots provide enough insulation to provide adequate safety for workers in a situation like this.

IEEE Std. 80 might offer a different opinion.

Still, I don't think I'd want to be nearby if it actually arc-ed.

-- Thipdar


----------



## UncleBenBen (Feb 21, 2020)

Alright, just an observation. 

I started helping my father, uncles, and grandfather do electric work when I was literally 9 years old. It's about all I've ever done. 

Any of the theory and math aside, maybe there was some confusion with the term "electrocuted". 

For me and Webster's that implies serious injury or death. I've never been electrocuted. I have been "shocked" countless times. From low voltage AC and DC up to 480AC. I've yet to be injured. My worst was getting hung up on a 277VAC lighting circuit, but the 20A breaker thankfully did its job an tripped after a couple or three seconds. Yep, it hurt. I was sore for days but I still consider that as getting shocked. No burns, torn ligaments or muscles, still alive.

There is a big difference between getting a tingle, getting shocked and being electrocuted. For me personally, despite what I already know, if the very intelligent and highly qualified members here say there is no risk of dieing from coming into contact with the conductors of an electro-refining cell then I'm going to take that as gospel.


----------



## anachronism (Feb 21, 2020)

I agree- I was always brought up to believe that being electrocuted was to be killed with electrickery 8) 8) 

Jon


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## kurtak (Feb 22, 2020)

UncleBenBen said:


> Alright, just an observation.
> 
> I started helping my father, uncles, and grandfather do electric work when I was literally 9 years old. It's about all I've ever done.
> 
> ...



That is absolutely correct & was another point I was going to bring up just have not had time to post the last couple days & for what it's worth is another point where "Mr. I am right" is SO VERY WRONG

The FACT is that the rectifiers I posted about which are capable of delivering as much as 10,000 amps would only give you a "tingle" equal to a bit more then putting a 9 volt battery on your tonge & then ONLY if you grabbed ahold of the bus bars with "soaking wet" hands while standing in a pool of water

If your hands were dry & with shoes on your feet you would feel next to nothing if you felt anything at all

So not even a real shock much let alone eletrocuted 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 22, 2020)

Thipdar said:


> kurtak said:
> 
> 
> > Aluminum Anodizing rectifiers
> ...



Hmmm - what about the - "potential" - 10,000 amps

after all you are the one that has been pushing all this B.S. (with all your GREAT KNOWLEDGE) that it only takes a tenth of an amp to kill you & therefore setting up a cell run by a DC output rectifier will "require" a great deal of safety protocols including but limited to a faraday cage around the rectifier

FACT - even with an potential output of 10,000 amp --- at 18 volts - there is NO risk of electric shock (maybe a tingle) let alone electrocution & you certainly don't need to build a faraday cage around the rectifier

Bottom line --- your entire narrative here has been WRONG from the beginning and is STILL WRONG 

So why don't you just - "man up" - & admit it

Kurt


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## Yggdrasil (Feb 22, 2020)

Although it is important to iron out differences in opinion and such, I feel this is getting out of hand.
Since this is an online community, such attributes as skills, age, education and general mood/behaviour is all but invisible to the other parties. Some are very precise and correct in language, some are not, and there can be a plethora of reasons for that.
But that means that we have to give the other side the benfit of doubt and assume what is said/written is in best of intentions.

Would it be possible for the Admins to create a *"FightClub"* thread, where theese matters can be moved and solved, without utterly destroying the meaning and usefullness of the original intent of the thread?

Or even better, take theese things over PM.
It should not be neccessary to do the laundry in public.


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## kurtak (Feb 22, 2020)

Yggdrasil said:


> Would it be possible for the Admins to create a *"FightClub"* thread, where theese matters can be moved and solved, without utterly destroying the meaning and usefullness of the original intent of the thread?



Thats why Dave decided to move it here (to debate it)

The fact is that "Mr. I am right" is WRONG - meaning he is posting mis-information - Goran, my self & others have tried to correct that with FACTS

That is in the best interest of the OP &/or the forum - so that the OP & forum can get to the bottom of answering the question asked by the OP

Heading out the door right now to go ice fishing

Kurt


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## rickzeien (Feb 22, 2020)

I rarely way in on any "controversy". 

In this case I feel compelled. Since I began reading this forum I really like the fact that misinformation was rooted out with a passion. Especially where personal and public safety was concerned. 

Most of the internet is full of theory, opinions and sometimes outright lies that can cause harm be it safety, financial or otherwise. 

The experts on this forum are relentless in the pursuit of real world, NO B.S. information. 

The correction starts with little jabs and sometime escalates into a full on brawl and sometimes people's feeling are injured.

I would be willing to bet that this format produces some of the best information on the internet or anywhere on precious metal refining. (Or anywhere else for that matter)

Keep the correction dialect going. Like it or not it is the layman's best shot at truthfully accurate information that is fully vetted. 



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Yggdrasil (Feb 22, 2020)

I concur with that Rick.
But still the intent of the thread has been drowned with this brawl.
Maybe the Admins could move the refining bit of this thread to a new one with links to the
controvercy, because the brawl may still give a good bit of education, just not in the original intent of the thread.
I'll leave that bit to the Admins


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## Shark (Feb 22, 2020)

The original thread can be found here. It is found in the Electrolysis section.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=28652

This is the debate/discussion section just for these types issues. The argumentative posts were moved here from the the original thread to keep that section in better order.

Years ago I worked in a plant that ran subsystems on 16volts at 3amp. The real danger with those systems weren't being electrocuted but the in hurting yourself from the knee jerk reaction of being "bit" by the next system being plugged in backwards. That was back in the day before we had these new "only plugs in one way" plugins. I used to check them about once a month (there were 360 individual units) by touching two of them, if I got bit, reverse the polarity of the second one and move on down to numbers 2 and 3. If that isn't bad enough I done it that way for almost 14 years. Looking back I now know better ways to do it, but it was quick and worked.


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## snoman701 (Feb 22, 2020)

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that these are welding voltages...actually a little low for welding, but still, react the same.

I can hold on to the electrode while standing on the steel plate that is grounded.

And anybody who has TIG welded knows that it's the high frequency arc starter that gets you. 

Either way, it's all fine and dandy til there is a dead short...and the human body has too much resistance to cause that. Even sopping wet. Been there on some portable jobs.


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## Yggdrasil (Feb 22, 2020)

Aah, that was right Shark 
I remember now, by just reading the new posts one can easily forget what has happened in the past :lol: 
I'm quite familiar with HF jolts from Tig welding, quite energizing one can say.

But still, every now and then strange things happen even with familiar things like this.
Once the welding gun exploded and ripped the threads off the clamping device for the tungsten electrode.
The inside was covered in carbon soot like if it had been subjected to a pure acetylene flame.
Never found out what it was, changed the clamping device and pushed on.

Maybe it should be noted in the Top text that this is the FightClub :lol: :wink: :roll:


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## anachronism (Feb 22, 2020)

Progress simply cannot be made without conflict. History shows this time over.

Whether that be ideas or ethos the same thing applies. Stifling conflict is the way to stifle progress. A group of people sitting around agreeing with one another gains nothing, but that's the narrative of the left who do this publicly whilst bullying dissenters into silence behind the scenes. They dont WANT progress. They want control. 

So let's do this- have a "fight club" area where people can say what they need. If someone isn't mature enough to remain objective then smack them down hard. 

It often frustrates me with US forums because they are not the same as European forums. Over here we go for it and say what we mean whereas over there it's all about buttering people up and being "nice" whilst stabbing them in the back. 

That's just counterproductive. Yes it makes some people feel better because their knife was delivered with a sugar coating but guys.....

Let's have at it. 8) 8)


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 22, 2020)

I've left this thread open so people can "debate", but let's leave name calling and politics out of the discussion.

Dave


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## Shark (Feb 22, 2020)

I like this section the way it is. While I somewhat agree with Jon, I am not in full support of his idea. Conflict does not settle an issue. Open and honest discussion does. The conflict (name calling and such) surrounding the disagreeing opinions is a waste of time and effort that could have been applied towards the subject at hand. For two people, knowledgeable in the subject at hand, to discuss a subject with mutual respect will bring about a beneficial settlement for both, especially if they can part ways and maintain that respectful attitude towards one another. As for the forum, not only do the ones in disagreement benefit this way, so do those who are just learning the subject, maybe at a much later time. Those new people can also learn about said subject in a comfortable, non BS atmosphere. This thread is a good example of thinning the excess BS and letting the subject matter of the original OP to continue respectfully. Conflict settlement of differing opinions only allows the winner to subjugate the looser. True conflict settlement is beneficial for all parties involved.


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## anachronism (Feb 23, 2020)

I read my post back this morning and whilst the context was what I meant, the actual message was not clear.

By conflict I mean the ability to disagree vociferously and come to some kind of consensus without the requirement to constantly kiss someones' butt for fear of offending them. It's this feeling of having to dance around things that prevents a lot of progress because people don't feel empowered to make a point and defend it in case they upset the apple cart. 

As such an awful lot doesn't get done.


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## kurtak (Feb 23, 2020)

Yesterday I closed out my last post by saying I was head out the door to go ice fishing

It was a GREAT day out on the ice - sun was shining & it got up to about 50 degrees F - there was 5 of us out on the ice & we hauled in a total of 25 trout (rainbows) between 14 - 18 inches which means with a 5 trout limit per person we all limited out --- actually caught a few more but anything under 14 inches went back in the hole & of course there is always those few the come off the hook before you get them pulled up though the hole & onto the ice --- what a great day with good friends :!: 8) :mrgreen: 

Anyway - concerning name calling - that would be me - I am the one That has referred to Thidar as an ass & Mr. I am right --- & I stand by those assessments of this man because that is EXACTLY what he has SHOWN himself to be & I will be dammed if I am going to sugar coat what he has "in fact" proven himself to be through a multitude of long winded post on EVERY level of what has been discussed here

In the very beginning - I did not have a problem with his posting a reply to the OP voicing a concern "to be careful" because of the potential high amp output of the system (copper refining cell) the OP was asking about & his pointing out that it only takes one tenth of an amp to kill you

However - once Goran (& others) pointed out that he IS flat out wrong when it comes to such a systems (LOW voltage HIGH amp DC output power supplies/rectifiers) he not only continued to argue with Goran (& others) with a "multitude" of post of ABSOLUTE mis-information in order to prove his point that he is right when "in fact" he is wrong has IMO - earned - him the title of being - "MR. I am right - simply in the FACT that he has insisted on being right - even though he is ABSOLUTELY WRONG

Then - not only did he prove himself to be "absolutely" wrong but "insist" on being Mr. I am right he moved on to challenge the integrity of Goran's knowledge concerning (different) electrical systems because Goran could not possibly have the VAST knowledge/experience he has in the field of electrical systems

This attitude that Mr. I am right took ( after being here for a VERY short time) was a TOTAL assumption on the part of Mr. I am right --- in other words - this "assumption" he made which "in fact" became a direct attack on Goran's knowledge &/or integrity (and for that matter others that have been here FAR longer then he) makes him an "ass"

He is an ass in that not only does he insist on being right when in FACT he is wrong - but as well his being a "new member" he comes here & calls out the knowledge &/or integrity of "long time" contributing members

Let me put it this way - as far as I am concerned - he has "doubled down" on being an ass & by his own hand has earned himself the title of being an ass

Now then - I am going to go as far as calling him another name --- he is also a "liar" - all this B.S. about his vast experience working with electrical systems is in fact just that - B.S. --- in the multitude of post - loaded with mis-information clearly show that he has little if any real experience "working" with electrical systems --- at best he has spent time on the internet reading articles &/or watching you tube & maybe he has taken some college classes & maybe played with some home experiments

So I am sorry - but the multitude of mis-information posted here "in his own words" not only makes him an ass that insists on being MR. I am right - but he has sat here & lied to us about his vast experience in order to attempt to prove himself as right when in fact he has been nothing but wrong

The part I don't get is - what the hell is going on here with the politics to allow this to continue --- there was a time when such politics where not tolerated 

I mean really - since when did it become OK for a new member to come here - post mis-information - insist that the mis-information is right - then call out the integrity of long time member & lie about his experience to prove his point --- I want to know when did such B.S. become "politically correct" to the point of becoming expectable without consequence

To be more blunt - Dave - I want an explanation of why this is being allowed without consequence - when others have been dealt consequence for the same &/or even less - & you know who/what I am talking about

Kurt


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## Yggdrasil (Feb 23, 2020)

I had a plan to say a few words, refreshed by Kurts steaming post, 
but found that he probably said it all.
Still a b*i*t envious of your day on the ice :mrgreen: 
Edited a typing error :roll:


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 23, 2020)

kurtak said:


> To be more blunt - Dave - I want an explanation of why this is being allowed without consequence - when others have been dealt consequence for the same &/or even less - & you know who/what I am talking about



You want an explanation. Fine. I have reviewed this thread, and unless I've missed it, Thipdar has not violated any of our forum rules. If you feel he has, perhaps you can point out which rule and which post.

You, on the other hand have just, again, violated several.



furum rules said:


> We expect readers to be on their best behavior, thus avoiding confrontations that take energy away from the topics at hand, and to avoid losing good and valuable members. This includes not posting about religion, politics, explosives, potentially illegal activities, or other subjects that could divide members of the forum. They simply create unnecessary and unwanted distractions away from the purpose of this forum - the recovery and refining of precious metals. Understand that accessing the forum is a privilege, not a right, and can be terminated for failure to adhere to board policy.
> 
> Profanity, racism, sexism, bad taste, and violent, vulgar, or foul language have no place on this forum. We are intelligent individuals who have the ability to converse without the use of offensive language. We are visited by people of all ages, genders, races, and religions, so please keep your comments clean. Post as if your mother, child or grandchild might read what you say.
> 
> Be sympathetic to other members. There will be zero tolerance for personal attacks on the board. If you are at odds with another, feel free to have a polite debate, but temper your words with wisdom. Post your position, doing so by sticking to the subject at hand. Do not make your comments personal in nature. Flaming is not permitted. No one will be allowed to attack the character of another. If you find yourself involved with another reader, and things don't work out as you hope, do NOT make mention in such a way that it can't be addressed by the accused.



Thipdar hasn't posted on this thread in three days. You've made four posts since then. Now, do you really want me to start swinging the ban hammer more freely?

Dave


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## jimdoc (Feb 23, 2020)

FrugalRefiner said:


> kurtak said:
> 
> 
> > Thipdar hasn't posted on this thread in three days. You've made four posts since then. Now, do you really want me to start swinging the ban hammer more freely?
> ...


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## Shark (Feb 23, 2020)

OK, I need to clarify my post as well. I was speaking in general, not at you Kurt, Jon or anyone else. In fact, I was thinking ahead to any future debates. As far I as I am concerned, this debacle is dead. I have known sources that I can rely on for proper guidance here and many have spoken on the subject. I have made an effort to point other new people into trying to figure out for themselves how to learn who to pay attention to until they build their own relationships with other members (which promptly had a shot taken at it as well). If the original question was mine, I would already be applying what I had learned, and like many still be scratching my head about others. I did say that I am somewhat in agreement with Jon's idea, but that doesn't mean anyone has to participate in a given debate. That person who decides not to participate may well be the person with the answer to the issue, new membership or old. 

And:
I am glad Goran showed some restraint and did not immediately ban Thipdar, it shows his credibility as a moderator. I also study his posts as I have learned he is one of the very knowledgeable members and would not debate with him without some very long and hard study...even then I would be unsure. Where it should go from Goran's last post until now I am not sure. Compared to a few years ago, the whole situation seems to have turned to the opposite extreme.

Glad you had a great time fishing, I am very jealous! I haven't seen a live trout in many years.

I just saw some new posts since I started this one but will let stand.
I did edit to correct grammar and spelling.


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## anachronism (Feb 24, 2020)

jimdoc said:


> *Banning long time members isn't cool when they are addressing a problem. A very real problem.
> 
> Putting new members with an attitude problem on notice right from the start would be a good thing. And yes, this guy has, or had an attitude problem.*



For me and for what it's worth this is the absolute crux of the matter. Instead of nipping the new members attitude in the bud it's obviously easier to sit back and allow it to develop into a brawl - and then take the soft option and ban the long time members. 

That's completely twisted logic and THAT is why people (quite a lot of them) are speaking up about it. 

I really cannot understand your outright flat refusal to see it and accept it Dave.


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## kurtak (Feb 24, 2020)

anachronism said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> > *Banning long time members isn't cool when they are addressing a problem. A very real problem.
> ...



Dave I I have entered in a discussion by way of PM - so I would like to request that further comments be held in check until Dave & I have completed our discussion - at which time we will post what currently "appears" to be a disagreement in the handling of this debate

I trust that we (Dave & I) will come to an agreement - at which time we will post the results

Kurt


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## Thipdar (Feb 24, 2020)

jimdoc said:


> FrugalRefiner said:
> 
> 
> > Thipdar hasn't posted on this thread in three days. You've made four posts since then. Now, do you really want me to start swinging the ban hammer more freely?
> ...



Great. Now I've been misconstrued and I didn't even say anything.

For what it's worth, the reason I haven't been posting much in the last few days is due to a couple of things.

First of all, my grandaughter visited with us. She's about eleven months and as cute as a bug. She's more important to me than this forum is.

The second reason is that I've been refurbishing a radial arm saw that I was given. It needed a general clean-up, was missing some parts and was wired for 220VAC.

However, you're right, I did learn something. When a radial arm saw is configured to make rip cuts, you have to feed the lumber into the blade from the correct direction (even if you are using a zero-degree hook blade).

The saw is working fine now, and I've been using it to craft a club for use with my new English Froe.

[Note: Sorry for changing the quotations around - I did so in an effort to clear things up, not to misquote anybody]


-- Thipdar


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## anachronism (Feb 24, 2020)

No probs Kurt.


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## Thipdar (Feb 24, 2020)

kurtak said:


> Yesterday I closed out my last post by saying I was head out the door to go ice fishing
> 
> It was a GREAT day out on the ice - sun was shining & it got up to about 50 degrees F - there was 5 of us out on the ice & we hauled in a total of 25 trout (rainbows) between 14 - 18 inches which means with a 5 trout limit per person we all limited out --- actually caught a few more but anything under 14 inches went back in the hole & of course there is always those few the come off the hook before you get them pulled up though the hole & onto the ice --- what a great day with good friends :!: 8) :mrgreen:
> 
> ...



My first formal training in Basic Electricity and Electronics was provided at the Naval Air Technical Training center, Millington, Tennessee, in 1974. That's part of what qualified me to be an Aircraft Electrician.

Since then, I have (among other things) received a technical certification in Computer Maintenance, worked as a Field Service Technician for several companies, helped test circuit boards that were used in missiles, helped build circuit boards that have been placed into orbit around Earth, worked as a contract Technician at the Mirror Fusion Experiment II at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories and as a Production Test Technician at Morrow Designs, in Emeryville, California.

I've also soldered together, component by component, my own Digital Multi-Meter, my own home computer and my own multi-channel logic analyzer.

All of this happened *before the internet was available* (DARPANET might have been in existence, but I didn't have access to it).

Your claim that I am a liar is laughable.



kurtak said:


> So I am sorry - but the multitude of mis-information posted here "in his own words" not only makes him an ass that insists on being MR. I am right - but he has sat here & lied to us about his vast experience in order to attempt to prove himself as right when in fact he has been nothing but wrong
> 
> The part I don't get is - what the hell is going on here with the politics to allow this to continue --- there was a time when such politics where not tolerated
> 
> ...



Keep up the good work. It's amusing.

-- Thipdar


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