# Ready to use real Aqua Regia, but first here my previous try



## The Green Team (Jan 7, 2009)

I have experiment with the shor aka Poor Mans A/R. I was able to make it work, but it is very slow and the volume of material I had to use made a it a nightmare when time comes to filter.

For on going I am jumping through the hoops to buy real nitric and hcl.
I am a business so I might have a slight advantage here, but I must say I am going to be reviewed on paper and have a physical site inspection 
prior to delivery of Nitric. I guess I am ok with that. I am a patriot after all

Overview:
I am working with brazing on metals. I reduce the content of base metal (410 ss most of the time) and then I digest the base and all pm's. Using 
Poor mans I had to use a lot of muriatic and SubZero (doesn't seem
cheap enough to be considered poor mans) I have tried heating, and other methods to assist. Heating helps, but hard to control temp in my environment for long periods of time (I am using a turkey deep fryer to submerge a 5 gallon bucket in) The Turkey Fryer works well and is a stable platform.

The A/R hybrid seems to become saturated because of the amount of base metals. I increase the volume to thin it out, and still get it done, but the amount of a/r for 3 oz of Au gets up to 7 gallons, and I still think I have too much Au in filter sediments which leads me to washing it down to flush the Au into the A/r increasing the fluid amount. I have an XRF analyzer from Nitton with PM program which I use to check the fluid. AU is picked up in every filter (trace amounts if I rinse) 

I tried a selective sample of 3.69 grams of mixed metal (base and braze) in a solution of 30 ml h202 (3%) and 30 ml of hcl (31.45%) This went to work on the base metals and the braze alloy got thin (estimated 82-90 percent au and balance nickel) I felt this approach might reduce the base metal leave the brazing and some base metal leaving me with less A/R to contend with for the final round. Looks like the gold becomes small flakes, and breaks off. Doesn't seem to dissolve, but will likely becomes lost at some percentage

The hcl alone seems to also do the same thing as the 1:1 hcl and h202

Sulfuric acid theoritically won't work on the Martnestic SS very quickly. I thing the nickel in the gold braze weakens the gold enough to liberate solids in tiny amounts. If I could do this with confidence and recover 100% of the Au then transfer into A/R that would be fine, but not comfortable with that prospect based on what I see.

I considered experimenting with dissolving only the AU and Nickel by Ionic interference with Chrome and Iron. A little advanced for right now. I am not a chemist, but I wish I were.

I also have fears that the filter content of Au sludge is from premature precipitation due to hi iron content in the A/R digestion process.

I do know it is worth getting good at this because I have already achieved better recoveries than what I normally get from my favorite professional refiner.

Bottom line is it seems I am different than the average person on this site because currently my feedstock is not electronics (do plan on doing some though) 

Does anyone have any help they could offer?

I have locations in Mississippi, and California. I do this process in Mississippi though. I might be able to redistribute the Nitric Acid (I will have to buy bulk and I will be getting 63% conc.) to someone who can help.

I specifically would like help on ratios of total metals weight to volume of A/R. 

Is the traditional 3:1 ratio good for this type of metal?

Are the ideal conc. level?

Temps seem to be best at 140 to 150f is this true?

I have studied patents which have a lot of data regarding these methods, and this leads me to questions on PH.

Should I adjust the PH to 2- 4 preferably 3 prior to percipitant?

have used storm (I am thinking Shor is not my future supplier of choice)

Ferrous Sulphate? or SMB? anything else?

Should I use an emulsifying agent like Butyl Stearate? I think this lends itself to making a finer gold sponge. I don't need finer I wont easy material to melt.

I am also curious about mol measuring. I wish I could quantify the gold content in fluid samples over a period of time to see when the Au is peaked.

I have also considered salts and electrolytic. I feel the surface area of my Au is mostly trapped and this technique may or may not work well.

I appreciate any response, and look forward to working with this forum. 

I specialize in recycling exotic metals, and can sale metals (even gold) at real low margins. If I can help anyone out in this manner let me know.

I know this was lengthy, but it is my first post. It is a serious matter that I get competent with this procedure quickly so I thought I would spill most of my story intitially.

The Green Team
Levi Bradford
714-852-1300
[email protected]


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 7, 2009)

Sounds like you're doing jet engine parts, with the 410 SS and the Nioro braze.


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## Harold_V (Jan 7, 2009)

The Green Team said:


> Does anyone have any help they could offer?



Yes.

Gat a copy of Hoke's book and read it until you understand what it tells you. 

Harold


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## Palladium (Jan 7, 2009)

Well i must say that was a mouthfull. Could you give us a idea what exactly it is your using for a feedstock. Pics would be nice. How much of this material are you trying to refine ? Chris (GSP) has just about done it all when it comes to that type of recovery. And as far as shor goes, well let's just say you need to forget that route. Welcome to the forum. :wink: 
Sounds like your getting there though.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 7, 2009)

Until the final (as always) gold purification step, I don't think that Hoke will help much when doing jet engine parts.


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## The Green Team (Jan 7, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Sounds like you're doing jet engine parts, with the 410 SS and the Nioro braze.



I am working jet engines right now. I have 80 stators left and several fuel supports. I have test run 5 stators already. Doing better recoveries, but hacking through it. I think I left some Au behind (pretty sure).
I had some glassware break due to exothermic reaction which caused me to absorb the solution. I now have a considerable amount of organics
which have Au readings when I xray them. I haven't processed this 
yet and I have added filters to the organics. I have been cooking it down 
to dust.

I will probably buy this book as I do like to learn through reading. I think I heard it is in PDF for sale is this true?

Sounds like you have experience with this material. Do you know if it goes well in authentic A/R?


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## The Green Team (Jan 7, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> The Green Team said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone have any help they could offer?
> ...



I will. Any other good reading out there?


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## The Green Team (Jan 7, 2009)

Palladium said:


> Well i must say that was a mouthfull. Could you give us a idea what exactly it is your using for a feedstock. Pics would be nice. How much of this material are you trying to refine ? Chris (GSP) has just about done it all when it comes to that type of recovery. And as far as shor goes, well let's just say you need to forget that route. Welcome to the forum. :wink:
> Sounds like your getting there though.



Slowly getting there. Unfortunately I will need to gain speed in time,
because it is business not pleasure.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I am happy to be here.

I will take pictures, and such to share.

The Shor route is over for me.

I melted a clay silica crucible. Lets just say my torches are huge and for demo. I was using a large #2 heating tip and propane. I think the pressures are a bit overwhelming for the process.

Any advice on how to liberate Au from the melted crucible. The borax may be an issue as well. I can set up a Hydrogen torch or a small oxy/fuel torch, but I think I would rather set a kiln up or buy an electric oven. 

Any advice here?

I have 150 grams recovered so far, but I want to repeat with real A/R to get my purity up.



Levi


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## Harold_V (Jan 8, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Until the final (as always) gold purification step, I don't think that Hoke will help much when doing jet engine parts.


I agree, but it will teach the principles in using AR, which I assumed was his main concern. For clarity, _*Hoke does not discuss e scrap in any way, shape or form.*_ There was no such thing when the book was written. 

However, when an individual understands what Hoke teaches, it is easy to apply the knowledge to almost anything encountered. It certainly was true in my situation. 

I still recommend Hoke before getting involved, regardless of the nature of the material. If it does nothing else, it puts the newbie on the same page with those of us that have greater experience, to say nothing of the great lessons learned in testing and testing reagents. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 8, 2009)

There's a considerable amount of gold on 80 gold bearing stators. What engines are you working with - JT3D, 4D, 6D, 8D, RB211? Are you doing the fuel manifolds also? There are also stator segments that run quite high.

When I was doing this, I ran tons of rotor blades that were brazed together in pairs. These are often overlooked. I think they are made of some Rene' alloy. I don't know what engine they are off of. They run about an ounce of gold per 70# of blades. Some of the brazes on them also contains palladium.

Some pitot tubes contain components that are solid gold or platinum.

Are you doing any silver brazed stators, etc.? They are abundant and are quite easy to work. There is also about 10% Pd in much of the silver braze (PaCuSil braze).

Your refiner probably isn't chemically processing this material. He probably melts the material, by adding enough copper to lower the melting point. He will then ship the bars to a primary copper smelter for gold recovery.

Most of what you're processing can be done overnight by selectively dissolving only the braze, leaving the base metals intact. This, of course, saves on chemicals, produces less waste, and saves the scrap value of the inconel, stellite, rene, etc.


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## The Green Team (Jan 8, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> There's a considerable amount of gold on 80 gold bearing stators. What engines are you working with - JT3D, 4D, 6D, 8D, RB211? Are you doing the fuel manifolds also? There are also stator segments that run quite high.
> 
> When I was doing this, I ran tons of rotor blades that were brazed together in pairs. These are often overlooked. I think they are made of some Rene' alloy. I don't know what engine they are off of. They run about an ounce of gold per 70# of blades. Some of the brazes on them also contains palladium.
> 
> ...



I am currently working on J57 and JT3 Stators and JT3d and JT8 Fuel Nozzels/Manifolds.

Haven't gotten into the Manifolds yet.

I have done several other engines and have others to go (JT9D-7A)

We have some misc blades which I am going to be looking carefully. I find this stuff here and there, but I do have an XRF which helps me quickly id things. I am sure I have missed some.

Do you have any pictures of the Pitot Tubes?

I also have engine exciter boxes and some old avionics to go through.

Sounds like you are really experienced. I would like to learn more of the selective brazing process. I have read some patents on this and it sounds very possible.

I like the idea of using less chemical overall. 

Thanks for your help. 

Levi
714-852-1300


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## The Green Team (Jan 8, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> There's a considerable amount of gold on 80 gold bearing stators. What engines are you working with - JT3D, 4D, 6D, 8D, RB211? Are you doing the fuel manifolds also? There are also stator segments that run quite high.
> 
> When I was doing this, I ran tons of rotor blades that were brazed together in pairs. These are often overlooked. I think they are made of some Rene' alloy. I don't know what engine they are off of. They run about an ounce of gold per 70# of blades. Some of the brazes on them also contains palladium.
> 
> ...



I have silver brazed stators which I have saved, and I also have a few Pd stators.

I came across some oddball Pd catalyst on Iron sheets. Pretty big units. I want to get into those too.

I fear I may have not recovered a few Pitot tubes from some complete airplanes I recycled. Any idea of how much pm one could bear? Is there pitot tubes in jet engines?


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 8, 2009)

> We have some misc blades which I am going to be looking carefully. I find this stuff here and there, but I do have an XRF which helps me quickly id things. I am sure I have missed some.


The blades I am speaking of come in 2 lengths. The smaller is about 4.5" long and the other about an inch longer. They always come in pairs which are brazed together. They can be split apart by putting them upside down, over the edge of an open top steel drum, and banging them from the side. I usually bang them with my gloved palm. I'm thinking they are Rene 41.



> Do you have any pictures of the Pitot Tubes?


Unfortunately, no. I think that the pitot tubes are mounted on the outside of the aircraft and are used to measure airspeed. The ones I am thinking off are made of copper and are shaped like a pistol. I would guess that they are about 5" X 5" and weigh a pound or two. When gold was $400, I think they ran several hundred dollars per unit. In many units, even the insulated wiring in them is solid gold or platinum.



> I would like to learn more of the selective brazing process. I have read some patents on this and it sounds very possible.


I have found only 3 patents. One is the Fountain Plating patent that alternates, several times, between cyanide (to dissolve gold) and nitric acid (to dissolve nickel). I once consulted for a vane replacement company that used this process with some modifications. I didn't care much for it. The other 2 patents requires ultrasonic energy. The methods that I developed and used are somewhat simpler. I know of 7 chemical methods that can be used to process these parts.


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## The Green Team (Jan 8, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> > We have some misc blades which I am going to be looking carefully. I find this stuff here and there, but I do have an XRF which helps me quickly id things. I am sure I have missed some.
> 
> 
> The blades I am speaking of come in 2 lengths. The smaller is about 4.5" long and the other about an inch longer. They always come in pairs which are brazed together. They can be split apart by putting them upside down, over the edge of an open top steel drum, and banging them from the side. I usually bang them with my gloved palm. I'm thinking they are Rene 41.
> ...



I like the idea of just taking the gold in some cases. The 410 SS is low value, but I think anythings which does not digest more metals than needed would be great.

GSP thanks for your input. I think you are my new best friend :lol:


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 8, 2009)

Gold and Tungsten have the same specific gravity - 19.3


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## The Green Team (Jan 8, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Gold and Tungsten have the same specific gravity - 19.3



Yup, There are a few things to get used to when using my Nitton. I guess and acid test to determine gold would be best in this case.

Levi


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## Palladium (Jan 8, 2009)

The Green Team said:


> I will probably buy this book as I do like to learn through reading. I think I heard it is in PDF for sale is this true?



FREE :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: 1. Refining Precious Metal Wastes C[1].M Hoke http://tinyurl.com/5ld6kf (REV) (Free Download)


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## Lou (Jan 8, 2009)

I should emphasize that the density of a single crystal piece of tungsten is 19.3 but that any tungsten (short of specialty pieces like zone refined bars, crystals, or electron beam melted curiosities) that we will ever see will be considerably less dense.

99.9999% of all tungsten products are made via powder metallurgy and are sintered. Since industry does not cast tungsten, it is exceedingly rare to find a sample which approaches its theoretical density of 19.3. Usually it is 90-95% of theoretical density.

Depending on who is checking the specific gravity, such a difference between solid gold, and say, gold-clad tungsten would be tough to detect. I'm sure someone somewhere has thought "hmm, let me pass this here tungsten bar off as a gold bar!" :roll: Probably quite possible given the general ignorance of people... :-/


Lou


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## Noxx (Jan 8, 2009)

I'm pretty sure there are people in the world plating Tungsten bars with copper then gold...


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## rfd298 (Jan 16, 2010)

> I am currently working on J57 and JT3 Stators and JT3d and JT8 Fuel Nozzels/Manifolds.


Levi,

Do you have any pictures of the parts (Stators and Manifolds) you are currently working on. Jet engines aren't my thing, I'm an old Avionics tech, I know my way around different USAF LRU's( Line Replaceable Units) but not Engine shop stuff.

Thanks


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## Harold_V (Jan 17, 2010)

Lou said:


> Depending on who is checking the specific gravity, such a difference between solid gold, and say, gold-clad tungsten would be tough to detect. I'm sure someone somewhere has thought "hmm, let me pass this here tungsten bar off as a gold bar!" :roll: Probably quite possible given the general ignorance of people... :-/
> Lou


Oh, yeah! Big time!
I'll never forget the time I was invited to meet an elderly couple that had an ingot of "gold" that they wanted me to inspect. They insisted we meet at a public place, to insure their safety, and to insure that I didn't pull any capers with their "gold". 

After meeting their approval, they pulled out an ingot. Yellow it was. Gold it wasn't. These idiots had a piece of yellow brass (specific gravity----what, maybe 9?) and were convinced it was gold because someone had gone out of their way to make it look like a (poor) example of a gold ingot. Way too much draft, for one. 

Even when I showed them (nitric acid) that it wasn't gold, they weren't convinced. 

People are very easy to dupe when it comes to gold. Most folks have never held, or even seen, pure gold, aside from plating. They don't have a clue about its properties, but greed blinds all too many people. They are very easy to dupe------which is why I always toss out a cautionary post when ever anyone posts a "good deal" on gold, especially gold ores, or placer. 

Be careful, folks, it's more likely a deal is bad than it is good. Money NEVER chases people. 

Harold


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