# Hobby Ingots...



## ldebernardi (Jun 27, 2011)

I collect scrap pieces of metal, mainly Brass and Copper and I want to be able to cast some ingots with the scraps that I pick up. I am new to casting so I am interested in what equipment and processes I should use. I will be casting about 50-100 lbs a week based on the average scrap I collect. I want to cast the weight into 1lb or 1kg ingots. I was looking into getting a Handi-Melt or Electromelt by Kerr but from what I have been reading on here there would be drawbacks to using these machines. What would be the simplest set-up needed to cast the amount of ingots that I am planning on weekly? Please any help would be greatly appreciated. I may be new to all of this but I am dedicated.

Thanks in advance for any information!


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## jimdoc (Jun 27, 2011)

This site should help you out;

http://backyardmetalcasting.com/

Jim


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## Harold_V (Jun 28, 2011)

Some things to ponder. 
Copper alloys may or may not lend themselves to being mixed. Traces of aluminum, for example, can ruin an alloy's ability to cast well. Aluminum bronze is one of the metals you're likely to encounter, so the likelihood that you'll end up mixing them is quite real. 

The furnaces you mentioned are limited to volume, plus the crucibles are very expensive and of short duration when used. Being made of pure graphite, they burn away rapidly where exposed to atmosphere, and would burn all the faster when you attempt to melt copper. 

A big negative when melting is having a crucible that is quite restrictive of size, which is the reality of the electric furnaces in question. You will be required to reduce the feed to small pieces, which may or may not be an easy chore, depending on the tools you have at your disposal.

If you switch your thinking to a home built furnace, fueled by either natural gas or propane, you can buy crucibles that are far better suited to melting the metals you find interesting. The added bonus by using a bilge type crucible will be the prolonged lifespan of the crucibles, which are not made of graphite alone, plus you gain the ability to melt larger objects without reducing them in size. 

It's not clear to me what your objective is. If you have a market for the ingots, or if you intend to melt for reasons of convenience, that may not be too bad of an idea, but once you've melted material, it may not be easy to identify. Not a problem if you sell for scrap, but if you're seeking a given alloy, it won't be obvious what you have, unlike having the original parts as they were cast. This, of course, isn't going to be true in all cases, but keep it in mind. 

You'll eventually get tired of pouring ingots, and you'll likely not enjoy the cost of pouring. I expect that if you objective is to sell them for scrap, you'll add too much to the cost of material to make it a good idea. Make sure you're making ingots for the right reason, not just because you think it will be fun. If fun is your objective, the forum that has been referred should enlighten you to the possibilities of ways to pour metal with a purpose. That's fun, too, and can be a money making proposition. 

Before you take the plunge to melt these metals, I'd advise that you make an effort to become versed on copper alloys, so you'll have a good understanding of what each is, and which of them can be melted together so you don't end up with nothing but scrap. 

Pease do keep us advised on what you learn. 

Good luck.

Harold


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## ldebernardi (Jun 28, 2011)

Harold thank you for the information. I have looked at http://backyardmetalcasting.com/ and the furnace they sell as a kit costs $200.00 plus the cost of the refractory and propane tank and regulator. Any ideas on how much the refractory will cost? Also, What is a bilge type crucible and can it be used with the kit available through http://backyardmetalcasting.com ??? If not what type crucible should I use and how much will it cost, also what is the average lifespan of a crucible? Another question that I have is how much propane will be used per lb. of copper melted? I really need as much information as possible to see if this is worth my while. My plan is to cast ingots of copper for storage as an investment. Eventually I will sell them, and I get my copper for free or very cheap so if casting ingots is reasonably priced then I will buy the equipment to do it as a hobby. One more question is where should I go to buy the other supplies that I will need as well as what other supplies will I need to do this? For example safety equipment such as gloves, glasses, stirring rod, crucible tongs and ingot molds? I especially need to know what tongs will work with what crucibles with the backyard metal casting kit and what medium should I use for my ingot molds. I have found graphite ingot molds, but do they have the same short lifespan problem as graphite crucibles...or what is their lifespan. Also, what is the ideal weight of copper to cast and what size ingot molds to use with the backyard metal casting kit furnace. For example what is the ideal amount to work with in one batch?

Thank you all so much for responding especially Harold,...

Lyle


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## patnor1011 (Jun 28, 2011)

All your questions will be better suited on that forum: http://backyardmetalcasting.com
This is precious metals forum and melting copper is not generally advised as it is energy intensive and not that easy like casting from tin or lead. When you melt copper you destroy origin - your copper is harder to identify and anyone who will buy that from you will probably insist on checking content of your ingots. That may cost something.


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## Harold_V (Jun 29, 2011)

ldebernardi said:


> they sell as a kit costs $200.00 plus the cost of the refractory and propane tank and regulator.


A kit isn't a requirement, assuming you're a little handy with tools. You can start with a portion of a 55 gallon drum, or other steel container that is in keeping with the size of furnace you hope to build. 



> Any ideas on how much the refractory will cost?


It's been years since I made a purchase, but there's a few things you need to know. The greater the temperature you expect, the greater the cost of the refractory. If you restrict your melting to non-ferrous, you may be able to get by with a refractory that's rated for something in the 2,400° range. Please note, this is all coming from my head, I have not referenced any guidelines, so I may have a few numbers screwed up. You can expect to pay at least $50 for a 50 pound bag, and it may be more. You should be able to pour a furnace and lid with about 100 pounds. (May take more----lots more---depending on the size of your furnace and crucible). 

A noteworthy comment. Refractory materials are not concrete, at least as you understand concrete. Do not assume you can substitute with Portland cement. 

Refractory materials are typically available in two configurations, one a dry type that you mix with a prescribed amount of water, then the resulting slurry is poured to a container with a series of forms to create the desired cavity and hole for the burner. The other type is premixed and is called a ramable refractory. It is quite stiff, and is rammed in place, as its name implies. Both are good--and each may offer an advantage over the other, depending on your capabilities. If it matters, I've generally used the dry mix material. what is commonly known as a castable. Be advised, it has a shelf life-----buy it only when you are ready to put it to use. 



> Also, What is a bilge type crucible and can it be used with the kit available through http://backyardmetalcasting.com ???


Bilge type is a tiny amount smaller at the opening than it is in its midsection. Sort of barrel shaped, for lack of a better description. They are the most common type of crucible. Their design makes them quite strong when at heat, and are easy to hold and remove from the furnace, assuming you have the proper lifting tool and pouring shank. Small crucibles often use the same tool for each operation, but large crucibles pretty much require both types of tools. Breaking point would be somewhere around a #8 or # 10 crucible. The number of the crucible designates how much aluminum, in pounds, the crucible can melt. For copper, you multiply the size by three, so a number 10, for example, would hold ten pounds of aluminum, or 30 pounds of brass (or copper). 



> If not what type crucible should I use and how much will it cost, also what is the average lifespan of a crucible?


The cost varies according to size, and longevity is a function of how it's used. If you flux, they don't last long, maybe six to eight heats. If you don't, you may enjoy many heats, perhaps 50. For aluminum, I have no doubt, you may achieve a hundred or more. 



> Another question that I have is how much propane will be used per lb. of copper melted?


I can't address that question, and it's likely no one can. The efficiency of your furnace would play a role, along with many other factors. 



> I really need as much information as possible to see if this is worth my while. My plan is to cast ingots of copper for storage as an investment. Eventually I will sell them, and I get my copper for free or very cheap so if casting ingots is reasonably priced then I will buy the equipment to do it as a hobby.


From my perspective, it's an ill gotten idea. I tried to make mention of some of the pitfalls in my previous comments. One of the most important things to remember is that unless you can identify the material you have, you may not get much of a price when it's sold. If you store waste materials in their configurations, that's much like having American silver coins. Everyone in the metal chain knows what the items are, and can reliably predict the content. That's not true of melted materials. For example, if you melt scrap copper pipe, you're going to include some lead and tin. Even if you don't, and have cleaned up the material, you can't prove that to your buyer, so you may not get top price. By carefully sorting and cleaning your scrap, then storing it in large containers, that may not be the case. You will also have avoided the expense and trouble of melting, all for no real purpose, and certainly not for gain. Were I in your position, I'd do just what I said---I'd procure some 55 gallon drums then clean up the material, even cut it in small lengths so it can be handled easily and it takes less space to store, and I'd put it away just as it is. Alternately, I'd get involved in making castings. That way you get the pleasure of melting and pouring, and selling the material for prices well above market value of the scrap. That, of course, means you'll be forced to learn a trade--that of a foundry person. 



> One more question is where should I go to buy the other supplies that I will need as well as what other supplies will I need to do this? For example safety equipment such as gloves, glasses, stirring rod, crucible tongs and ingot molds?


Supplies can be purchased from foundry supply stores. Check your yellow pages, or go online and do a search for foundry supplies. 



> I especially need to know what tongs will work with what crucibles with the backyard metal casting kit and what medium should I use for my ingot molds.


There's several approaches to making molds, anywhere from casting to machining to welding. A nice ingot mold can be made from a length of heavy web angle iron, cut at an angle, then sides welded on each end. That yields pyramid shaped ingots, and you can tailor them to the size you desire. You can also buy molds from foundry supplies. Still, I don't recommend your plan. You'll have invested a large amount of money and effort, only to receive scrap value for the material. You can do that without the melting, as I've said. Tongs are readily available, and should conform to the vessel you choose. If you choose to make your own, make damned sure you know how to weld, and that you make them such that a hot crucible is supported in the proper place and way, and that you can't crush the crucible. If you don't know, hot crucibles become quite elastic, so they're somewhat easy to crush. Properly shaped tongs limit the ability to crush them. Bad welds have a way of letting go when the crucible is in use, filled with molten copper. Not a fun thing to experience. 



> I have found graphite ingot molds, but do they have the same short lifespan problem as graphite crucibles...or what is their lifespan.


Lose the idea of graphite molds. I don't like them for gold, and I damned well wouldn't like them for copper ingots. They're too easy to damage, and they change every time you pour an ingot. 



> Also, what is the ideal weight of copper to cast and what size ingot molds to use with the backyard metal casting kit furnace. For example what is the ideal amount to work with in one batch?


That is dependent on the decisions you make. You'd be limited by the amount of metal you can safely handle when molten. Working alone? I'd opt for nothing larger than a #20 crucible, and a #16 is likely much smarter. I'd even encourage you to consider something like a #12, You really don't want to find yourself in a situation where you have fifty pound of molten copper and it's out of control. That's more than enough to kill you and burn down your shop or house. Remember, you'd be dealing with molten metal at over 2,000° F.

How much you can melt would also be determined by the size of your furnace. Make a decision on how much you'd like to melt at one time, then build the furnace accordingly. 

You'd benefit a great deal by doing some research before you make any decisions. It's much like trying to learn to refine gold. There's a lot of things that make a difference, and you'll learn about them only by studying. Spend some time on the foundry forum, and do some research to see if you can sell the ingots before you make any. Makes no sense to spend a great deal of time and money on them, to discover you'd have done just as well leaving the material as found. 

Harold


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## joem (Jul 22, 2011)

Here is a picture of a test ingot produced at the Sudbury mines. It was given to me by my father ( a welder by proffession) he brought it back from Sudbury when he did a contract in the mines about 35 years ago. It's about 4x4x3 and weighs 3.5 pounds.


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## Lambskin (Jul 22, 2011)

ldebernardi said:


> Harold thank you for the information. I have looked at http://backyardmetalcasting.com/ and the furnace they sell as a kit costs $200.00 plus the cost of the refractory and propane tank and regulator. Any ideas on how much the refractory will cost? Also, What is a bilge type crucible and can it be used with the kit available through http://backyardmetalcasting.com ??? If not what type crucible should I use and how much will it cost, also what is the average lifespan of a crucible? Another question that I have is how much propane will be used per lb. of copper melted? I really need as much information as possible to see if this is worth my while. My plan is to cast ingots of copper for storage as an investment. Eventually I will sell them, and I get my copper for free or very cheap so if casting ingots is reasonably priced then I will buy the equipment to do it as a hobby. One more question is where should I go to buy the other supplies that I will need as well as what other supplies will I need to do this? For example safety equipment such as gloves, glasses, stirring rod, crucible tongs and ingot molds? I especially need to know what tongs will work with what crucibles with the backyard metal casting kit and what medium should I use for my ingot molds. I have found graphite ingot molds, but do they have the same short lifespan problem as graphite crucibles...or what is their lifespan. Also, what is the ideal weight of copper to cast and what size ingot molds to use with the backyard metal casting kit furnace. For example what is the ideal amount to work with in one batch?
> 
> Thank you all so much for responding especially Harold,...
> 
> Lyle


If you PM me your phone number and tell me a good time to call I can help you out with this. 

Ken


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## MMFJ (Aug 9, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> From my perspective, it's an ill gotten idea. I tried to make mention of some of the pitfalls in my previous comments. One of the most important things to remember is that unless you can identify the material you have, you may not get much of a price when it's sold.



Along with totally agreeing with what Harold_V said in these posts, I thought perhaps a picture would speak more/other words to those that still think melting copper is a good idea.....



Presuming that hoarding copper is a good idea as a 'savings plan' or 'survival technique', just which pictured item(s) would you take in trade for your loaf of bread?

(Oh, and I didn't do this - but I did buy a melting oven [and yes, I've learned from this forum just how ill-thought it was, prior to doing MUCH more research...] - this was some "value" the guy I bought it from added to the sale - the attempts he had made at melting copper.)

I am hoping this picture will help someone - then I can truly say there actually IS value in this 'ingot collection' {even more than I learned the instant I saw it}!

And, BTW, to anyone that wants to hoard copper, I'm open to offers! 

one last tid-bit - some copper is 'collectible', in the right form;



but making that at home is, IMHO, 99.999% not going to happen!


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 9, 2011)

Looks like that last copper bar is made from buss bar to me. Sure be a simple way to make them.


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## MMFJ (Aug 9, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> Looks like that last copper bar is made from buss bar to me. Sure be a simple way to make them.



Likely what they are doing - just check out how many 'variants' there are (and what outrageous prices) over on eBay..... 

I searched for completed listings of '.999 copper kilo' and was really surprised!


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## shadybear (Aug 9, 2011)

That may be the way to go buy bus bar cut it to weight polish then stamp it ready for ebay!
The prices are crazy there.


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## pugle1 (Oct 16, 2012)

I know this is WAY OLD! and WAY LATE! ... but on that backyardmetalcasting site, I found a link for a great home made furnace ( the 2 Buck ((2 Bucket)) Furnace). There are great instructions and some good pictorials on construction.

I was very much into aluminum and aluminum bronze casting, and I powered my furnace with crushed BBQ briquettes and forced air ( from an old hair drier feeding into an old chrome plated vacuum cleaner tube). The 2 Buck furnace is well suited for use with a home made propane burner as well as long as you make it following the author's directions, and can get your hands on a good "roofer's" 40 psi adjustable propane regulator. My crucible was made of some very heavy gauge SS chemical piping with a welded SS plate on the bottom ( 3" diameter ).

It was a great little furnace (home made refractory - Sand / Portland cement / Fire Clay / Pearlite ) and lived through many, many firings. I was actually thinking of using this furnace type for my gold melts when I get to the point where I'm ready for my first melt.


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## Geo (Oct 16, 2012)

use a nipple straight from the tank and do away with the regulator. you can add a ball valve or a big needle valve inline if it makes you feel better. if you are really concerned, you can run it through a oneway check valve like the type on a well pump but personally, ive run aluminum furnaces for many years using no regulator from the large 500 pound tanks and never had an issue.


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## pugle1 (Oct 17, 2012)

Hi Geo ... something to think about


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