# Just some powders



## Shark (Jun 25, 2019)

Since I hit a good spot to quit for the day here is a picture of some powders waiting to be melted. I am hoping they make four 9's. Maybe a few more people can post some new pictures as well....


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## archeonist (Jun 26, 2019)

Some nice instant coffee :mrgreen:


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## anachronism (Jun 26, 2019)

Nice- certainly looks clean.


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## rickzeien (Jun 26, 2019)

Beautiful.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## glorycloud (Jun 27, 2019)

Great work! Looks nice!!


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## Lou (Jun 27, 2019)

How will you know if it makes 4N?


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## Shark (Jun 27, 2019)

I go by my buyers xrf. How close that really is I am not sure, but it makes them happy. One day I would love to have a real test done on some and know, if only to satisfy my curiosity.


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## Shark (Jun 27, 2019)

Here is the button. It needs some better lighting but that will have to wait till daylight.


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## kurtak (Jun 28, 2019)

VERY nice Shark :mrgreen: 8) :G 

Kurt


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## Lou (Jun 28, 2019)

Shark,

If you want, I can run your gold for impurities by difference on ICP I have up here. It's beautiful gold, but we can run it and compare to the ASTM specification for Grade 99.99 gold. 

Some members here have sold me some really, really nice gold. Good work to those guys!


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## Shark (Jun 28, 2019)

Lou said:


> Shark,
> 
> If you want, I can run your gold for impurities by difference on ICP I have up here. It's beautiful gold, but we can run it and compare to the ASTM specification for Grade 99.99 gold.
> 
> Some members here have sold me some really, really nice gold. Good work to those guys!



I would love to have some tested sometime. This one is on the way to the buyer within a few minutes so maybe I can do something with the next one. I have always wanted to know where it really stands as this is primarily a hobby for for me, and want to do the best I can more than turn a big profit. 

Here is a better picture I took this morning. You can see a few of the cracks from the pipe better, but no where near all of them showed up.


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## MGH (Jun 28, 2019)

That looks very nice, Shark.

Here's a batch from a couple weeks ago; stone removal from carat gold jewelry. This is 6.6 ozt, with and without camera flash on the powder.

The melted bar is not the nicest I've poured. Recently I've been getting a lot of gases escape from my bars after pouring into a graphite mold, which disrupts the surface during cooling/solidification. I'm not sure what's going on. My current theory, which I'll test on the next pour, is that the carbon I've put in the mold via simple acetylene burn from the torch is too much (or not needed at all), and it's gathering oxygen (from somewhere) and escaping as CO2. Any other hints/advice?


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## Shark (Jun 28, 2019)

MGH said:


> That looks very nice, Shark.
> 
> Here's a batch from a couple weeks ago; stone removal from carat gold jewelry. This is 6.6 ozt, with and without camera flash on the powder.
> 
> The melted bar is not the nicest I've poured. Recently I've been getting a lot of gases escape from my bars after pouring into a graphite mold, which disrupts the surface during cooling/solidification. I'm not sure what's going on. My current theory, which I'll test on the next pour, is that the carbon I've put in the mold via simple acetylene burn from the torch is too much (or not needed at all), and it's gathering oxygen (from somewhere) and escaping as CO2. Any other hints/advice?



I am pretty sure most anyone would be better able to help with the off gassing problem as I have never used a mold on gold yet. While I have acetylene, I melt almost all of my gold with oxygen/propane. The only thing that comes to mind is to let it cool slower, and you may already do this by moving your torch slower away from the bar after melting and pouring it. The other thing is how I know (suspect) that my gold doesn't need another refine is when I dry it there is nothing that sticks to the glass. Any tiniest particle that sticks and/or is off color from the rest means it isn't ready yet. I hold the hot beaker in gloved hand and tap the side of it against the heel of my other hand. Those big chucks in my picture is how it comes from the beaker. I am almost OCD about keeping my beakers and other glassware clean. With 6oz. plus it may not be possible to do it that way, I have never done that much at one time, yet. The color of your powders looks pretty good to me, and I would love to pour a bar, especially one that size. 

By the way, my button shot four 9's, with the comment of "as we expected"... made my day right there.


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## anachronism (Jun 28, 2019)

Nice haul MGH 8) 8)


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## MGH (Jun 28, 2019)

anachronism said:


> Nice haul MGH 8) 8)



It is, isn't it? Though... it's not mine. This was a toll refine for one of a few local pawn shops for whom I do stone removal and gold refining once in a while. I just collect a small fee.

Shark,
I've thought about trying to keep the heat on, keep the gold molten and let the gasses escape, but it makes me nervous to do so in a mold. I'm afraid the gold will try to jump out. Six ounces cools relatively slow in the first place, and the gases just keep coming. My thought is that there _shouldn't be_ gases escaping in the first place, so I need to find and address the root cause.

Thanks all


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## Shark (Jun 29, 2019)

I wish I could help more but I just haven't got that far yet. The majority of my stuff ends up around 1/2 ounce to just over an ounce. If you figure it out, let us know, I like being prepared ahead of time whenever possible.


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## anachronism (Jun 29, 2019)

Make sure you're on a decent percentage. Jewellers get ripped off terribly by most people, and declaring an honest yield and 20% fee tends to work for them. 

Nickvc and I have a regular job for a large gold buyer and his rate is 20%- he's more than happy with it because we still return him at least 30% more than he got elsewhere after our charges. 

Jon


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## Shark (Jun 29, 2019)

Funny you bringing that up Jon as I just got ask to figure out what I would charge to do 4 to 6 ounce lots of karat gold and return the stones as well. I have known this guy since the early 1990's and he has a very high reputation for honesty and accuracy in a very large area around here. He has also been doing business for over 30 years in the same area. The guy just got ripped off a few weeks back for $2000 on a 8oz. lot claiming the loss was due to fake materials. Now the "refiner" isn't answering his phone and has moved. My buddy feels lucky he even got any money back on his last lot, and I do as well. 

Now, that brings me back to trying to figure out how to work out a price for doing his material. It will also take some talking as he has always been kind of quite about the percentages he pays and receives. I also realize that confidentiality is of the utmost importance when building up these kind of relationships. Any advice on where to start?


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## MGH (Jun 29, 2019)

anachronism said:


> Nickvc and I have a regular job for a large gold buyer and his rate is 20%- he's more than happy with it because we still return him at least 30% more than he got elsewhere after our charges.



John,
Are you saying that you guys charge 20% for stone removal? Please don't take this as a critism - it is not, it is a very honest question - but that sounds high. I see refineries offering free stone removal as long as the lot is 5+ ounces. And other refineries charge just 2-3% regardless of lot size.

Of course there are other factors (payout percentage, actual yield) but 20% still seems high. Am I missing something? Are you cashing out for them and keeping the gold AND stones?

I do echo what you're saying about your customers being happy with the fee schedule. I'm fairly sure the reason my few local shops have given me repeat business is because they've dealt with other refineries over the years and do, in fact, see that my returns are better for stone removal. That said, that's the only business they'll give me. If they have karat gold with no stones, they take it straight to Elemetal and get their payout. I can't compete there (especially since they're not interested in a pure, returned product; they just need to cash out).

I'd love to work at your rates  I just can't imagine a customer around here paying that.


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## MGH (Jun 29, 2019)

Shark said:


> If you figure it out, let us know, I like being prepared ahead of time whenever possible.



I do think I figured it out, and I think I was right. I had been sooting the mold to try to get a smoother finish on the bottom of my bars, and the carbon was escaping as CO2 when the molten metal was poured in.

I had made the mold myself by carving out a block of graphite, and there are tool marks that show up in the bars. Not a big deal; I had just been trying to smooth out the finish.

This time I cleaned out all soot before pouring, pre-heated the mold as normal, and voila. These are smaller bars (3.7 ozt each), and cooled more quickly, but there was absolutely no hint of gases bubbling up. I have had the bubbling problem with this size bar in the past. I think the unnecessary soot was the issue.

P.S. This was another lot of stone removal from a local shop. Both guys contacted me about the same time as gold has gone up recently. I split this lot into two bars.


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## Shark (Jun 29, 2019)

Those bars are nice!
I really want to get a mold or two and try pouring some. I need to quit talking about it and do it as well.

I didn't catch that you were using graphite molds. Seems sometime in the past I had read that graphite molds didn't any treatment. But then some days things don't get remembered right either. 

Thanks for sharing that also.


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## anachronism (Jun 30, 2019)

MGH

They do their own stone removal. Anything that's left in by this point is rubbish. We get paid for refining the fluxes and believe me the 20% is hard earned if you do it properly.


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## MGH (Jun 30, 2019)

Jonn,

I thought you were referring to fees for stone removal and/or karat gold refining. 20% for fluxes makes much more sense.

Thanks


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