# KCN setup questions



## Rickthenewb (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi everyone, I am in the process of purchasing a 40 gallon setup to dissolve gold off of fingers and chips. I am getting my supplies from a company called Technic. I am curious to see what you guys think of my setup and if you have any comments to push me in the right direction.

I am using a combination of tap water, KCN and a Technic stripper solution
When saturated I am raising the pH to over 13 with NaOH, adding their additive "D" as they call it and increasing the temperature to 190F for 3 hours
At this point I plan on using the gold bug to recover the gold

I am really curious if I have too many steps or not enough and also is their a way to get any non-gold metals from the solution as well as neutralize the waste to save on disposal.
Also if anyone knows what these Technic chemicals could be I would love to save some money.
Thank you in advance


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 2, 2010)

The question to ask Technic is not how to strip the gold (that is easy with their stripper) but, how, can *you* (without shipping the solution to them), simply recover 100% of the gold from their stripper (not so easy). That is the most important question.


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## Rickthenewb (Mar 2, 2010)

I will be extracting the gold myself using electrolytic recovery, i.e. the "Gold Bug"


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## shadybear (Mar 2, 2010)

Where is this place i havent seen it yet.

Probably Merlin Magic!


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## 4metals (Mar 2, 2010)

Their stripper is designed to strip the gold efficiently. A gold bug unit for plating out the gold will not work effectively if at all. Their gold is chelated in the strip and they know but won't tell the chemical used to break the chelating agent to free the gold. 

Be careful with cyanide, it is not something to work with casually. Treating cyanide requires a 2 stage oxidation process. How will you handle rinsing your work? Since you know of Technic I assume you have some plating experience, since Technic usually only deals with corporations perhaps you own or work in a plating shop and these warnings may be for nothing. But if you are not prepared to do the job and treat the waste completely you are looking for trouble.


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## jsargent (Mar 2, 2010)

4metals said:


> Their stripper is designed to strip the gold efficiently. A gold bug unit for plating out the gold will not work effectively if at all. Their gold is chelated in the strip and they know but won't tell the chemical used to break the chelating agent to free the gold.



Why even add a chelating agent to a KCN leach? Seems the KCN would do just fine on it's own. However, if one is looking for a gold chelating agent I know that some resin beads use methyl mercaptan and thiouronium as noble metal chelators.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 2, 2010)

Is this super high dollar Techni-Strip AU? Very difficult to recover the gold from this solution. Not the best choice. This chemical is designed to strip the faulty gold plate so that the platers can replate the parts. It's not designed for recovery of the gold. Recovery can be done but, even if you can figure out how to do it, it's not easy. It requires some dangerous chemicals (a hydrosulfite, if I remember correctly) and, even then, 100% recovery is difficult. They used to sell sugar (sucrose) with a proprietary name, at a high price, that you could add to the solution and would supposedly allow you to plate the gold out. That doesn't work well either.

The Gold Bug has difficulty recovering all the gold, also. 

You are trying to cut corners. There is no free lunch in this business..


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 3, 2010)

> Why even add a chelating agent to a KCN leach? Seems the KCN would do just fine on it's own. However, if one is looking for a gold chelating agent I know that some resin beads use methyl mercaptan and thiouronium as noble metal chelators.


He's not adding a chelating agent. This is a proprietary formula. I wouldn't necessarily call it a chelating agent that's in there but, whatever is in there prevents attack or cementation of the gold on the copper. For the same reasons, it prevents cementation from the addition of zinc. Therefore, unlike normal cyanide solutions, you can't precipitate the gold with zinc. I seem to remember that lead in the solution deposits a micro-thin coating on the copper (or the zinc) to prevent this attack. I believe there's a patent. A company named ACR held the original patents, I think. At one point, I think ACR sold a special proprietary chemical to help recover the gold.

If you are interested in the recovery of parts for replating, this is a great solution. If you want to recover the gold, however, it is about the worst thing you could choose.


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## jsargent (Mar 3, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> > Why even add a chelating agent to a KCN leach? Seems the KCN would do just fine on it's own. However, if one is looking for a gold chelating agent I know that some resin beads use methyl mercaptan and thiouronium as noble metal chelators.
> 
> 
> He's not adding a chelating agent. This is a proprietary formula. I wouldn't necessarily call it a chelating agent that's in there but, whatever is in there prevents attack or cementation of the gold on the copper. For the same reasons, it prevents cementation from the addition of zinc. Therefore, unlike normal cyanide solutions, you can't precipitate the gold with zinc. I seem to remember that lead in the solution deposits a micro-thin coating on the copper (or the zinc) to prevent this attack. I believe there's a patent. A company named ACR held the original patents, I think. At one point, I think ACR sold a special proprietary chemical to help recover the gold.
> ...



makes sense. The KCN puts the gold into solution then the mystery stripper stuff sequesters it somehow. I bet chelation is involved somehow. Just for grins i would try TR-6 on the stuff as it is sold as a "chelation bond-breaker" and we know how it drops just about anything out of solution.


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## Lou (Mar 3, 2010)

Destroy the cyanide, evaporate it, and then give it hell at high temperature, perhaps in the presence of silver to collect. Nothing like heat to destroy tough-toothed chelators.


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## Rickthenewb (Mar 4, 2010)

I called Technic and talked with there "Chemist". He affirmed that I initially use the technic stripper AU and then after saturation I add the "additive D" that turns our is a sugar. He then confirmed that it will be a two step process of removing the gold. First is through an electrolytic cell then by adding sodium hypochlorite (clorox) to the mix will preicipitate the rest. After siphoning off the cyanide I can then recover the left over gold. For the record I am not trying to cut corners I have been reading alot about this process and a lot of these posts as well as emailing several members for there input. Technic whether for good or bad has answered all my questions and I thought it would be good to bring to the forum for further input. I am not sure what else I can do to try and get something started. It seems everyone I talk to has a different way of doing these processes with no full explanation, and I am trying to find one or start out with one and work with it.


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## jsargent (Mar 5, 2010)

Rickthenewb said:


> I called Technic and talked with there "Chemist". He affirmed that I initially use the technic stripper AU and then after saturation I add the "additive D" that turns our is a sugar. He then confirmed that it will be a two step process of removing the gold. First is through an electrolytic cell then by adding sodium hypochlorite (clorox) to the mix will preicipitate the rest. After siphoning off the cyanide I can then recover the left over gold. For the record I am not trying to cut corners I have been reading alot about this process and a lot of these posts as well as emailing several members for there input. Technic whether for good or bad has answered all my questions and I thought it would be good to bring to the forum for further input. I am not sure what else I can do to try and get something started. It seems everyone I talk to has a different way of doing these processes with no full explanation, and I am trying to find one or start out with one and work with it.


Personally. I would follow Lou's advice and use evaporation and heat. That way there's no way to lose your gold and heat will destroy any chelator, due to their organic nature. This avoids the complications of electrolytic cells and iffy multiple step chemical processes. It's also cheaper than paying a premium for proprietary reagents.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 5, 2010)

A story about the use of Techni Strip Au. I once consulted for a guy that set up about a 100 gal tank of this stuff and ran tons of material through it in a plating barrel. He bought it in 100 or 200# drums - very high dollar. I tried to talk him in to using a simpler cyanide formulation, one that could be zinced out, but he wouldn't budge. When it came time to get the (lots of) gold out of about 2000 gallons of this solution, nothing really worked that well, even with Technic's guidance. He ended up bringing over an "expert" from France to get the gold out. The expert used an involved procedure that involved the nasty sodium hydrosulfite. It took days and still didn't work 100%. The moral of this story is, I would rather live in a dog's a**hole than ever use Techni-Strip Au again, in my entire life. It strips great but, oh, is it a b*****d to get the gold out.

However, Lou may have the answer. After evaporation, Lou, are you talking about incineration?

Rickthenewb,

I still think you're trying to take the easy way out. But, you'll end up paying the piper. For one thing, how will you know when all the gold is out? You certainly can't test it with stannous chloride.


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## nickvc (Mar 6, 2010)

Rick can i strongly suggest you listen to GSP........he isnt trying to steer you in the wrong direction and if any one knows his stuff on cyanide its him.


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## jsargent (Mar 6, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> A story about the use of Techni Strip Au. I once consulted for a guy that set up about a 100 gal tank of this stuff and ran tons of material through it in a plating barrel. He bought it in 100 or 200# drums - very high dollar. I tried to talk him in to using a simpler cyanide formulation, one that could be zinced out, but he wouldn't budge. When it came time to get the (lots of) gold out of about 2000 gallons of this solution, nothing really worked that well, even with Technic's guidance. He ended up bringing over an "expert" from France to get the gold out. The expert used an involved procedure that involved the nasty sodium hydrosulfite. It took days and still didn't work 100%. The moral of this story is, I would rather live in a dog's a**hole than ever use Techni-Strip Au again, in my entire life. It strips great but, oh, is it a b*****d to get the gold out.
> 
> However, Lou may have the answer. After evaporation, Lou, are you talking about incineration?
> 
> ...



So what is this Techni-Strip stuff really? I've been to their website and of course there's no real info there. If it really does overcome the interference of higher electromotive series metals while leaching gold, it might be worth it for some troublesome ore I have which contains decent amounts of gold but high percentages of iron, silver sulfides, copper and lots of carbonate. The carbonate precludes economical acid leaching and re-cementation is an issue. Ammoniacal leaches might work but combining ammonia and silver is worrisome. Thiourea... no thanks. Mercury... no way. Cyanide would likely work but I live right over an aquifer and can't risk any cyanide spills. I have no doubt heat would destroy technistrip to release the gold so I don't see that as a problem.


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## nickvc (Mar 6, 2010)

> So what is this Techni-Strip stuff really? I've been to their website and of course there's no real info there. If it really does overcome the interference of higher electromotive series metals while leaching gold, it might be worth it for some troublesome ore I have which contains decent amounts of gold but high percentages of iron, silver sulfides, copper and lots of carbonate. The carbonate precludes economical acid leaching and re-cementation is an issue. Ammoniacal leaches might work but combining ammonia and silver is worrisome. Thiourea... no thanks. Mercury... no way. Cyanide would likely work but I live right over an aquifer and can't risk any cyanide spills. I have no doubt heat would destroy technistrip to release the gold so I don't see that as a problem.


The answer isnt what you want to hear from what i can gather....cyanide based stripper.


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## Rickthenewb (Mar 6, 2010)

Thanx GSP, I am really just testing all the waters, I have not bought anything yet, I am just looking at all options. I am in a great situation here, a friend of mine who wants me to see if I can turn a profit by dissolving his scrap. If it doesn't work then I move on, but if it does I may have a small business I can run. So I am not really looking for an answer just trying to gather as much info as possible. With all this info I gathered I will not be using the stripper and maybe trying something different instead. So thank you everyone for your input it has really helped.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 6, 2010)

Don't get me wrong. I know of nothing on the planet that strips gold better and easier, without touching anything else, than Techni-Strip Au. For the plating industry, it's a marvelous product. It is very difficult to get the gold out, though, and there is no simple testing method to make sure you have got it all out. If someone could come up with a step-by-step that would get it all out, every time, I would change my tune. If that would happen, the only problem then would be the exorbitant price. I think there is a patent on it, however, and it could probably be made for 1/10 the price. When I get a chance, I'll look for the patent.

I think that there are still cyanide gold strippers on the market that will allow zinc powder to be used to drop all the gold. These were the precursors to TS-Au in the plating industry and I think they're still sold by several companies (I would check ACR, Enthone, Lea Ronal, etc. - any big company that sells gold plating systems). Maybe even Technic makes one. I would imagine they are cheaper than TS-Au. They will slightly etch the copper, however. From a recovery standpoint, that should be OK.


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## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2010)

I found this in regards to Technistrip Au FYI http://www.mtl.umn.edu/safety/MSDS/MSDS%20Sheets/Strippers/Technistrip%20Au.pdf


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 29, 2010)

I guess I was right about the lead being in it. Lead oxide = .22%


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## Lou (Mar 29, 2010)

I did mean incinerate. Do that (in the presence of oxygen) and all volatiles are gone. Forget chasing it any other way.


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Mar 30, 2010)

Shor International,Tecnhistrip Au,the german Doktor who charged his consultations,my Peruvian brothers that sell their silver recovery process for radiographies,Elsevier that sells all its articles in $33 USD and so for,all of them p****d me off to no end because they make money with our ignorance.Let us take off Technicstrip Au´s mask:

What they sell is a mixure of alkaly cyanide (sodium or potassium),an organic oxidant (meta Sodium Nitro Bencene Sulfonate,obviously called m-SNBS) and some lead oxide,called lithargirium.This mixure is sold in Mexico(called "cianuro estabilizado"=stabilized cyanide) at $ 500 mexican pesos/kg when its value does not exceeed $ 50 mexican pesos if you make it by your own with the aforementioned ingredients.This is the reason why this kind of companies are our enemies:THEY WANT TO STEAL OUR MONEY.Do you want to prepare what Technicstrip Au sells?..let it be:

42 gr of alkaly cyanide (sodium or potassium)
7 gr of m-SNBS
1 gr of lead oxide
TOTAL 50 gr

Observing all cautions about cyanide handling,mix all the powders,a salmon color powder will be formed,then dissolve the powder in 1 lt of tap water.This solution works for 3 kg og golden pins.

The safety instructions for cyanide gold recovery process have been posted by GSP,take a look to all his cyanide´s posts before starting this process.

Member of this Forum,this is a fight between great companies versus people like you and me,nobody should remain neutral,Are you with us or against us?...join me...remember our motto: "ALL SUBSTANCES TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE FORUM".

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 30, 2010)

Here are some of the patents on it.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=OIQwAAAAEBAJ&dq=3935005

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=DgguAAAAEBAJ&dq=4483739

I might mention that what Manuel identified as m-SNBS has several different names: meta-nitrobenzoic acid sodium salt; meta-nitrobenzoic acid sodium sulfonate; meta-nitro sodium benzoate (I think). I've usually seen it listed as m-NBSS.

For the refiner, it's not necessary to add the lead or some of the other chemicals in the patents. If you don't, it is easier to get all the gold out, with zinc. I have been very successful using NaCN or KCN, m-NBSS, and a little 35% H2O2 (about 20 ml/gal). My formula was similar to Manuel's, but with no lead and about twice as much m-NBSS. It works faster when warm (about 130F-140F), but it will work at 70F. You will get a little etching of the copper but, who cares.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 30, 2010)

The only thing missing now is for lasersteve to bag it and sell it on his website.

:lol: 

/Göran


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## butcher (Mar 30, 2010)

Juan Manuel Arcos Frank,
this is good to expose a bandit of our people's hard earned money,
company's should make a profit on what they work for, but to take a known process, and common chemicals, and sell them for extremely high prices, promoting magical formula's, is wrong, and these crooks need exposed, Juan thank you.
How can they sell cyanide such a dangerous substance, and with people who may not always follow their instructions, these people can easily poison themselves from getting wise and experimenting.
I have never used shor products, this company seems to be getting common chemicals and processes, then selling them to people, like snake oil salesmen.

TAR AND FEATHER THEM.


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Mar 31, 2010)

GSP,my Dear Friend:

Yes,Sir!!!!...what I called m-NBSS is really m-NBSS as you have said.This powder is very common in dyestuffs industry.

All what I know about alkaly cyanide gold process I have learned it from you.I do thank you and I do appreciatte all what you have done for me.

Have a nice day.

Your friend:
Manuel

g-axelsson:

LOL!!!!!!!!...Steve´s methods are pretty good and are safer than cyanide method.Anyway,if Steve wants the cyanide method he just needs to talk with GSP(they,both,are good friends) and the result will be an extraordinary useful DVD about cyanide gold process.

Gud välsigne dig.

Manuel

Butcher:

You are welcome,that is what friends are for.Join me,I need your help and knowledge to make available all substances to all Forum´s members.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## johnon (Apr 6, 2010)

Just a thought, you may be lookin at benzo triazoles or benzthiazoles. can search uspo w/ terms, might be helpful.


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## Rickthenewb (Apr 27, 2010)

I really appreciate the help from everyone. This week I am purchasing all the needed ingredients. 

I plan on trying out a 1 gallon solution with 
160 g of either KCN or NaCN (whatever is cheaper)
53 g of m-nbss
20 mL of 35% H2O2

I have some questions if anyone might be able to help.
What is the expected saturation (i.e. how much gold is expected to be held in 1 gallon)
What is the best method of dropping gold out. Should I just sprinkle in zinc and let settle for 24 hours. Is their a color change, is there a certain amount of time this needs to be done in. I am just looking for some signs to look for. Also is rinsing and boiling the gold with water and h2o2 enough to clean it. I plan on just using a plastic hole filled bucket and placing it into the solution for about 2 minutes and then dunking in another water filled bucket for rinsing (in a fume hood of course) Any comments are accepted as I have never done this before.

rick


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 27, 2010)

> I plan on trying out a 1 gallon solution with
> 160 g of either KCN or NaCN (whatever is cheaper)
> 53 g of m-nbss
> 20 mL of 35% H2O2
> ...



You should be able to get about 2 oz of gold dissolved in a gallon of this CN solution.

Since you're using m-NBSS, I would try it first without the peroxide. I might also use a little more m-NBSS. Even though the peroxide will make it strip faster, it will tend to destroy the cyanide. You'll get more life out of the cyanide without the peroxide. I used peroxide but it is tricky to know how much to use - and when. I would also use hot tap water to make up the solution and the start stripping as soon as it is mixed. The "dunking bucket" thing sounds good but go slow with the dunking or you'll slop the solution out. I would put the buckets in plastic trays in case this happens. I would also do a double or triple rinse.

It will be hard to manipulate those buckets under a fume hood. It might be better to do it outside if there are no dogs or other animals around. Try not to spill anything on the ground. Cyanide is sweet and animals like it. I once saw a prize bull eat some grass that had cyanide on it. He got about 10 feet away before he died.

To drop the gold out, first combine the stripping solution and the rinses and raise the pH to 12 with a little NaOH solution - it shouldn't take much. Try not to go above 12 or it will take more zinc. I you don't have a way of checking pH, add about an ounce of NaOH per gallon. 

Next, sprinkle on the zinc. I would do this using one of those small flour sifters, that you squeeze, to break up any clumps. It should take somewhere between 1 to 2 times as much zinc as you have gold - weigh the zinc you think you need before putting it into the flour sifter. Stir constantly. Try to rig up a stirrer that lifts the solution. You get better stirring action and you can see the color of the precipitate as you raise it up from the bottom. A cheap plastic plunger will work - or course, don't stick the plunger on the bottom. Go slow or you will slop the solution out on the upstroke. 

When the gold has all been dropped, there are two visual indicators. First, the foam created by stirring will usually go from yellow to white, but that isn't always reliable. When the gold starts to drop, the powder seen when stirring will be brown. At some point, when most of the gold has dropped, the color will start turning gray from the excess zinc. When you see no brown and the powder is fully gray, stop adding the zinc.

I let the powder settle overnight. Sometimes, though, some of the gold can redissolve. To prevent this, I hung a zinc bar in the solution.

Either siphon, pour, or dip off the solution away from the settled powder. I usually siphoned off as much as I could and then dipped the rest out. Filter the powder and rinse it several times to get the cyanide solution out of it, preferably with hot water. Put the powder, filter paper and all, into a bucket. *UNDER THE FUME HOOD*, cover the powder with water and add a very small quantity of nitric acid from a small beaker. You should see an immediate reaction when the nitric attacks the zinc. When the reaction slows down, sir it and add a little more nitric and repeat. When an addition of nitric produces no reaction, stop adding nitric.

After stripping, you are very likely to have some copper dissolved in the solution. The copper will also drop with the zinc. Nitric is about the only thing that will dissolve both the Cu and Zn. Either weak sulfuric or HCl will dissolve the Zn but not the Cu. I don't know where the H2O2 idea came from.

The remaining gold powder should be brown at this point. Filter it, rinse it well, and then purify the powder using the standard aqua regia process.

Good luck!


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## Rickthenewb (Apr 29, 2010)

Hey GSP thanx again for all the info, right now I have a respirator for HCL, SO2 and other acid gases, Will these cartridges be good for HCN or should i purchase a diffferent set. Just want to be on the safe side.


rick


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 8, 2014)

i am one of the users of the propriety solution. " it is expensive " i often use Sodium Cyanide , but this works well also. i clean my targets, in this case to remove a medium plating of Gold. these are Cathode targets used in gas fuel cells, and are left over as being damaged, or just not usable, or not built into product. this is a one time deal on these as the Company has closed its doors. this example is fifty targets, to be chemically stripped of gold over stainless steel, "
316 " probably 316L, i give a general clean, then weigh a ten of, then a ten of with the gold removed. keep the records, reduce to per unit in Mill grams, x gram price x my 85 perc3ent recovery efficiency, losses are drag out, reheating, general handling, and over wishful expectations. the material is thus :>


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 8, 2014)

My colleagues from Silver plating, say to me " thomas " i use my second name on the internet . Thomas, use a small set up, and do as many batches as needed. make it a process of repetition, and don't rush it. and work carefully, the size of jar i use is here :>


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 8, 2014)

i heat distilled water in a kettle, fill the jar, just to cover the targets and take out on my veranda, when a good wind is blowing, " i do use the sealed lid approach " latching lid for a slow stripping process, i add very little stripper to solution as i have time to do this, overnight.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 8, 2014)

the soap has baking soda in it. i rinse my targets in a second jug, then use an old face cloth to absorb the soapy baking powder mixture. then everything, in this case the fifty targets goes outside.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 8, 2014)

i put on a liquid silicone skin protector, rub it on my bare hands, then i put on latex gloves, i wear safety goggles also, and an absorbent apron. i use the siphon, to pull carefully liquid from the stripper, and put into the jar with the targets to be stripped. " carefully " no need to rush, i seat myself, have my wipe cloth with baking soda at the ready, and put in a little starter, i am using an non gradient siphon, as i am using a slow additive process. , the jar holds the heat reasonable " from the hot water kettle " but you may elect for a small low power hot plate.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 8, 2014)

So as you refiners know, on a clean surface cyanide works very well, " i DO NOT mix the Acid and Cyanide Process i have used acid on ground chips, and then washed several times, before using Cyanide, but please keep the acid away from Cyanide work. i hope to have some values, to report, plating per surface area, plating recovery over several base materials , one being stainless steel, the other titanium . i have this to process another day.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 8, 2014)

this is a sample of process, with pictures. Please write your process down on paper. execute with linearity and caution, use a gram scale or better, average your weights. and keep your drag out liquid to neutralize. i paid a hundred dollars for my gallon of stripper " i know expensive " i have made my own, and the above formula here, is exact " imo " DO NOT boil your Cyanide , or your mixture, be a good processor cautious and have some good return, for a vacation for yourself and your loved one.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 9, 2014)

*a few thoughts on deplating . the stripping process, works best before boiling. " do not boil " 
the stripping process will work at room temperature. i use a small hot plate with good temperature control, and run at 140 to 160 F. others use 190, 
in any case the active stripper can only hold a saturated amount. slowly adding stripper, is my method of choice.
the resulting solution, from clean material, primarily plated with gold, is a clear liquid. 
one forum member puts it this way " i can read a news paper through the solution " which in my case comes out to slightly lemonade colour, just a hint of lemon colour. 
Don't be frustrated, by having to put in more stripper, that just means your targets, to be stripped, have still to be deplateded of gold, 
my current batch is half done, i guestamate 4 grams, in .5 Liters of stripper, .7 Liters of distilled water. i use a liquid scale for my solutions. 
i just use my uncalibrated siphon for transferring stripper to my jar in process. be patient with the cyanide process, excess cyanide is not going to help you, 
keep your solution and drag out water secure, this is your investment handle it carefully,*


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 9, 2014)

stripping is a function of time by stripping solution, for a completed value, in this case gold plated targets, over stainless steel. my good read is always at my hands reach. and i like the function of a manual filter, with activated carbon.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 9, 2014)

you can see from the targets here, of an incomplete recovery, gold and gold chloride left on targets, which is incomplete testing, incomplete recovery and needs to back into the stripping tank.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 10, 2014)

with half the targets stripped, 25 remaining, with part gold plating, this is a photo of process, Note the more rustic target, to photo right, which was Acid " Aqua Regia " partial removal. the Techni Strip Au solution when cooled
does not replate the stainless steel targets. the effects of temperature, seem more to speed of action, when the solution is hot, it deplates faster. but holds with gold no matter what the temperature, 50 to 190 F. the solution pictured is now holding ten "10" grams plus, gold with about .7 Liters of TechniStrip Au , Potassium Cyanide, Lead Oxide, safety reference :> http://www.nfc.umn.edu/assets/pdf/msds/technistrip_au.pdf My note to users, i use a bit of oil of peppermint, in my cyanide solutions. use it in your solution, put it in , when you just start your deplate, stripping process. just a few drops, as this aroma will indicate to yourself, and others around solution, if it is escaping in some fashion, and do track it down, where your action in handling , may of caused a spill, or your drag out is incomplete, partial solution remaining. you can smell, where you may of splashed a few drops also, on vinyl, or other moisture holding surface. porous surfaces avoid. , in all stripping processes, careful is the watch word. Know your material, have it clean for stripping, do it on a small scale to get proficient. and have sealable recovery jars / jugs, of a good shatter resistant glass,. or durable transparent plastic.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 10, 2014)

You might read these threads.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=technistrip+au&terms=all&author=goldsilverpro&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Technistrip AU strips easy and fast and doesn't attack base metal, including copper. However, getting all the gold out of the solution is extremely difficult. Zinc won't get it all out. Technic sells an additive (some type of sugar) that helps to plate out the gold but it doesn't work very well. About the only way I know of that works is a long process using sodium hydrosulfite (sodium dithionite). It can be dangerous. This method was posted in detail on the sciencemadness.org forum. I'll try to find it.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 10, 2014)

Thank You *GSP * i concur, i am going to show two methods, or recovery, from final solution, i will illustrate by halving solution, and processing with active carbon filter, a Brita filter with active carbon, and a distillation method. and the firing results of a metal gold, / gold chloride / salt , reduced to metal, and final weights, and efficiency percent . of one run, two runs, and perhaps as many as five runs. i will attempt to be accurate to 2 percent, or better, with a plus and minus of .5 to 1 percent. I did read most of your forum notes "GSP" notes, as you have given very professional and accurate thoughts to correct and safe process " i thank you " As to source material, i like "Geo"s, material to guess at. it is clean, uniform, has good surface area, and makes for a high quality recovery by stripping process. i say this not of envy , but of support, it is hard work, to be consistent, have a good recovery process and have a good return to initial investment.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 10, 2014)

Here again, I'm talking about Technistrip AU. I would certainly want some method of determining whether or not any gold remains in the solution after you drop it. You might think it's all out when it isn't. The methods I have used to determine gold in cyanide solution are fire assay, wet ashing, and AA. I know of no simple method. I have heard horror stories about people thinking they got all the gold out and then discarding loaded solutions.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 10, 2014)

Again " *i concur* At Headly BC a high grade big gold mining operation, the tailings are washed with a Cyanide solution. the liquid recovered, was a light recovery of gold, further studies showed that the propriety solutions used for stripping gold from crushed oar, was not giving up values that were expected. , a review showed that another 8 percent was cast away. " the dewatering ground was resampled, and values found " 8 percent is a lot in a big operation. but, it is less than the losses that Headly Mines, had in its earlier years of operations. Nice to hear your valued thoughts on Cyanide stripping. i have tried to explain to readers, that my target of efficiency , from start to finish, a gold button in hand, is 85 percent or a few percent better. quite a few board members are talking transactional values, of 97 plus percent, myself i am not able to reach this accuracy, " ever it seems " but i do appreciate incremental improvements that i can make in my process of recovery, to have the best return. i have an electrical engineering background,j have worked on galvanic reactions in water systems and in my hobby time experimented with plating, reverse plating, and types of materials that are good to process by electro refining. i have more time now, that my radio days, are behind me. "yet i am still in design work " but the opportunity to make a good recovery, from richer material , is still a goal i would like to have happen, " some call it a major BINGO " i have had my moments. in your three references for a better recovery, " which i concur " AA atomic absorption spectroscopy , i have only used Reference Tubes of Qualative values, rather than Quantative. i appreciative your expertise of Chemical process and recovery process, as much as we would like to quick talk recovery one can not escape the physics of chemical processing. which with your Hydrometallurgy background makes you a leader of contribution on the subject. As much as Shor 'ishor" refining is not in vogue on this forum, their gold drop test buttons, may be a consideration to make a final end point verification, Lifted from their literature """ Testing For The Presence of Dissolved Gold:
To insure that when you pour off your waste water, you're not pouring off dissolved gold, you must test for dissolved gold. This test will detect the presence of as little as 4 parts of dissolved precious metal in 1,000,000 parts of water (less than 1/1,000 gram per batch). It will not detect the presence of particles of gold. """ i make my own detector solution, which is about Ten parts per million accurate. Readers your drag out rinse is important to keep as is your total solution of deplate, and the uncertainty factor of total recovery, " if your NOT sure " keep your solution in a 5 gallon or larger Drum, store in a safe secure location, and run a small evaporator on it. A Chemist such as GSP is more accurate than myself as a practitioner . i appreciate GSP thoughts on getting ALL the Gold OUT. now to see what little i have in my weight of target differential , and amount of expected gold i have in saturated stripper solution


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## nickvc (Feb 10, 2014)

I'm going to say this really isn't a process I'm going to endorse. It's full of hazards and shouldnt be attempted by anyone not sure of exactly what they are doing? The solution will still contain values along with highly hazardous chemicals even after attempting to recover them.
This isn't a process for the amateur this takes experience and full understanding of exactly what's occurring!
Cyanide is wonderfull at gold recovery but it carries many risks....one been death!


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 10, 2014)

Now the care in initial cleaning and weighting comes into play. in this case, number of targets, and weight give a total weight per unit " approximate, there is variation " and a value of recovery per unit, in mg. unit gold value actual over estimate, by subtractive weighing fifty units were started, of the 3 hole cathode targets plated in flash gold, with hard gold overplate. i have started this review with what i thought would be the lowest plate per weight. and i initially estimated 25 mg per target with 50 mg, being the best optimum guess. i would like to point out these are cheap kitchen scales. and not for trade. and they only work per gram, and imo are very non linear, fluctuate a gram or two. but for illustrative purposes, " out side of lab conditions " i continue.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 10, 2014)

the realized weight after the gold has been stripped is recorded for viewing here. with errors taken into account by scales, i am going to say there is expected 5 grams of gold in solution


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 10, 2014)

*nickvc* i have not finished my illustrative process, please stay with objectivity of my illustrated process. make your loss values known, what percent do you think is going to be lost ? give your thoughts on neutralizing cyanide in solution, and let us realize that seasoned practitioners here will use the Acid process as well as the Cyanide process, and be well aware of the hazards of both . let us agree safety is a mutual concern. but let us not be alarmist on this form, " as example a cyanide recovery problem just posted " . thank you for your thought, i do not need your endorsement, as this is a thread up to the individual that is experienced and handles process skillfully to a productive end. now i continue .
i would like to say, please read every one of the pane's i have posted here, on my thoughts, on stripping gold from clean targets. this is illustrative of a process that will work. of Potassium or Sodium Cyanide. i have stressed caution all the way through, and to have a procedure and equipment that you put together, as a reader and follower of the Gold Refining Forum. i would like to also say Cyanide, is used daily by thousands of Jewelers, for polishing and re working gold Jewelry all the time. . Yet for one forum members interjection of the hazards of Cyanide, i post this from Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals, by C.W.Ammen page 134. and he says :>


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 10, 2014)

Now we get to the interesting part. we have stripped the Gold, we have it in solution, we got Cyanide in solution, what are some solutions to get the Gold out. this photo shows, Brita manual filter, that uses activated carbon. 
it is in granular form and is in the assembly in the bottom spout on the inside of the filter. it is removable, and its functions as a trap for PMG's that are in solution, also fish filters will work , as they use active carbon also, and i have found them to be several times less costly than Brita activated charcoal. i am leaning to Hydor inline filter pump, http://www.hydor.com/backend/prodotti/img_upload/img_zoom/130617110930_prime_famn_xxx4.jpg i have the Hydor 250 unit that takes 3 filters.


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## nickvc (Feb 11, 2014)

GOLDbuyerCA
I can see that you have a very good understanding of this process and are confident and comfortable handling cyanide, I fear many that arrive here on the forum full of ideas of wealth and easy money will not have that and it's towards them I am thinking.
I'm only stressing my point to try to get others to think carefully before even attempting to work with cyanide because as I have said before it gives no second chances.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 11, 2014)

to continue with a generalization of using a commercial Cyanide stripper in the removal of gold off targets. in this case gold plated over stainless steel, please observe, that the batch work, is small in nature, the targets are clean, being cleaned of dirt, film and in general organics. the size of the glass cell is about one quart, / one liter, and a room temperature, or non boiling temperature is used, by a small regulated hot plate. the object of slow stripping is not to make a lot of bubbles, released gas, but to get a removal of gold into solution, the value of Potassium Cyanide by package detail says 17 percent, and the ratio of solution , is about 2 parts stripper 8 parts distilled water. the process being to add stripper as necessary to just get the gold off. ' into solution " i would like to confirm *nickvc* has a valid point on safety of drag out water, " i can show what he is inferring to " Chlorides are in the drag out, tapping on a clear glass plate, in what one would think is little or none moisture from the targets is not so. there is a residue , when dried on the glass plate shows up as micro grams of unspent Potassium Cyanide and Gold / chlorides, and other metals, " a cold water rinse bottle is what i use " in a spray rinse of twenty to one at least, then i use a baking soda cloth, to whip down the targets, all the while using latex gloves. Let us all give caution to one another when handling hazardous chemicals. by counting targets, weighing them to 1/10 of a gram in quantity, will give a result of mg of gold, per target, a good thing to know when you are scouting material. in process now, are these gold plated covers


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 11, 2014)

as a third batch is now in process of being stripped, and a average value of target is being firmed up. one can think of how the nature of gold recovery can be made into value, . do a complete strip of all targets, or realize some value that the quality of targets may be useful, in future recovery projects. ie. some of the targets are gold plated targets, over titanium and ss 316 . the plating thickness in this case is the same, the throw power was metered out carefully, by :> 
http://www.sterlingplating.com/ a look at the targets in question are shown here. it may be that making targets like this, may cost 5 dollars at least, or more, as some targets have a larger surface area.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 11, 2014)

Your target of efficiency should be about 99+%. From the parts you are processing, I would find that simple to acheive. I think you're over-analyzing this.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 11, 2014)

*Yes,* i do have good material to process. as from this last photo, my magnet is evident in checking the targets, the titanium are lighter 27.3 grams per ten units, and the stainless steel 316 are 47.5 grams per ten units. the gold " imo" is 99.8 or better than 99.9 a very high purity was used as plate for the gas fuel cell. i would like to be able to show, the grams i put into solution and the grams recovered to metal. which as you say, with this overemphasized analysis should be high. i have done this many times. but never described it in details enough, for an average reader, and practitioner to comprehend and reproduce. the titanium is bendable, the ss hardly, the other cathode in dull gray is Platinum,, , This thread of Techni strip Au is Google searchable, from back in 2010 when you put your thoughts down GSP , in a way, i am trying to carry on with for forum members and the general Google public that are results orientated.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 11, 2014)

You've put a lot of work in this and I sense your enthusiasm. I do, however, find it hard to follow you but I do believe you have something worthwhile to say. Could you do a step-by-step, how to do it, 1,2,3..., of your best shot, as of right now, on exactly how to cyanide strip gold from a particular matrix (your choice) and recover 99%? Then, let's go from there.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 12, 2014)

All of the material you've shown is perfect, and I mean perfect, due to the size, shape, and configuration for electrolytic cyanide stripping on a rack. Just make a typical ladder-shaped plating rack out of 1/4" square steel, with screwed-on spring steel (piano wire) shaped contacts along the rungs to secure and make electrical contact to the parts. I've made a lot of them. Use non-magnetic stainless sheet as the cathode(s) - 2 is best - one on each side of the rack. The only thing needed is about 5 or 6 ozs of NaCN per gallon. Run it at about 4-5 volts at room temp. The gold will dissolve and simultaneously deposit on the cathode. The same solution can be used many times, with occasional additions of NaCN. There will always be a small amount of gold still in the solution. Don't worry about that. Zinc it out when you decide to retire.

If the base metal is copper or a copper alloy, do the same thing except add 20 oz/gal of sodium hydroxide to the solution. This prevents attack on the copper.

Everything also applies to stripping silver.

The more I think about this, I think maybe the best choice for running those particular parts would be using a rack in a sulfuric stripping tank. It strips gold selectively on about any substrate you can think of and you can use the solution over and over. It works on any gold thickness. I ran all gold IC packages with braze in a sulfuric stripper, on racks (about 300/rack), daily for 2 years and never changed the solution. They took about 20 minutes to strip and all the gold settled out as powder on the bottom. You just collect it when you want or when it starts to short (too much gold powder floating around). Easy money.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 13, 2014)

For those of you reading along, here are some measured values of the material. "Gold over Stainless Steel " 
50 Targets of the 3 drill holes 737.00 Grams, .67 Percent of one percent by weight 4.9 Grams stripped.
35 Targets of the 2 drill holes. 523.50 Grams .67 Percent of one percent by weight. 3.5 Grams stripped. i amazed myself that it would be this close. Technistrip AU works consistently 
35 targets of the Mesh holes 139.25 Grams .78 Percent of one percent by weight 1.6 Grams stripped. i thought this would of been better, same plating area "i thought " over a thinner material
however, the surface is considerably less, perhaps one half less by surface area. ' the important part in plating, and deplating, values " 

i am getting back into this, from a lay off in 2003, " i just didn't think the time and energy was worth it " and i had other things, to do. This enthusiasm "GSP " speaks of, comes about by 
Tekion (Canada) Inc is a private company categorized underFuel Cells, Solid State and located in Burnaby, BC, Canada. ceasing to be in business, and the minor portions , / lesser inventory was sold off by auction. 
past auction here :> http://www.ableauctions.ca/flyer/?EventID=BB33D803-F5FA-D231-A1EC827FC4308C71 i bought some obscure lots, and got the items i am displaying, i spent one thousand dollars, and 
if not getting my value back, i am having some fun. / experimenting, and process reviewing. to make me a better practitioner at recovering precious metal values.

i would like to give my opinion on my recovery percentum by weight, on stainless steel, or metal pins of Mil spec quality per 1 Kg. merit on recovered pins, to British Columbia Assayer, "report" signed is 4/10 to 5/10 of one percent by weight. this lot, though quality pure plate, is not much better. What you see on Ebay, $ 100 for one lb, 14 oz. troy? is at 45 dollars a gram, about tops. more value is just not there, and buyers, have no . or little head room . in many cases say none. i value the current market, at 3 dollars a lb for pins, gold platted, but the shipping from California to Vancouver costs me another 3 dollars, and my waste " aluminum n crap " takes another 20 plus percent by volume out "
and then 3 to 4 for processing, just makes me 25 an hour clear recovery time and charges. it is a scramble , as you all know.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 13, 2014)

This thread started 4 years back, by a Gent. asking about the KCN process, and recovery. it has survived over that time by several thousand hits on the forum and by perhaps many more on Google Search. for the product 
"" *TechniStrip AU * as this update was in progress, another Gent. asked for help on a Cyanide recovery process gone thin, " little or no recovery " and has been addressed by "GSP" and others of the forum, GSP giving quite a good overview even for the first day user of the Cyanide question . GSP has encouraged me to be factual in my discussion and contribution. As readers may notice, " and you have " i have more to say on the subject of stripping PMG's by Cyanide, and electro apparatus. I would like to close, by saying i have purchased Technistrip Au, from Techni company :> Technistrip AU
Description: Gold Stripper
Characteristics: Cyanide based gold stripper prepared from dry mix. Removes gold from most base metals. "" with consistent results, for the occasional user, the prepackage gallon, will do all your light duty stripping. 
of stripping , i mean, clean gold over metal, , Which may be recovered to a good percentum by active carbon, electro winning, and distillation. " in a small process, i am using all three " you will get an 85 percent return 
over all losses, with careful handling, and in distilling come close to 98 percent recovery.


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## GOLDbuyerCA (Feb 13, 2014)

So of recent the question of successfully using Cyanide is again raised. as in this case thus 



avalanche said:


> hallo
> I used 100g of NaCN dissolve in 15 liter of water with strong presence of oxygen in an alkaline environment PH = 12 (I dissolve 25 grams of calcium hydroxide) to dissolve 25 grams of gold (10 KG motherboard mobile phone) everything goes very well
> in the phase of recovery of gold from cyanide solution I use zinc in reality this is not a very fine powder because I did not find but I scrape a zinc plate for powder in the size of sand or a little less but it gives no result
> I tried electrolysis with stainless steel electrodes it gives me that rust (corrision the electrode) a note the color of the solution is a clear yellow problemme I doubt that problemme this is due to excess NaCN in solution
> ...




A reply by GSP goes like this, i found it interesting so i include it here, for the continuing value of this thread :> 



goldsilverpro said:


> I use about 3 or 4 times more cyanide, per gallon, and I use, to start, about 25ml of 30-35% hydrogen peroxide - I tumble about 20-40 pounds in 1 - 2 gallons of hot tap water in a cheap cement mixer. More peroxide (often) and, more cyanide (rarely) might later be needed. The idea is to blast the gold off fast, 2 to 3 minutes usually - 10 sometimes - before it starts to eat the copper - heat and strength. If you start off with 140F water, the peroxide can get it to where it's steaming. It always (well, almost always - very rarely you have to use a fresh solution) works and you can get all the gold you can see. On copper or on a very thin nickel barrier layer that mechanically and chemically (slowly) wears off in the tumbling, thus exposing the copper, it can take longer. The solution is only good once.
> 
> I then combined all the solutions and rinses into a 55 gallon plastic drum with the top cut out, elevated on a stand taller than the drum, for siphoning purposes. Three or four hundred pounds of material, about a day's work, might generate 40 gallons of solution. I then adjusted the pH of the solution to 12-12.5 with sodium hydroxide and added an extra 10g of NaCN per gallon. I then stirred vertically, slowly up and down, with a plunger stirrer I made from a 5" diameter plastic disk on the end of a 5" piece of plastic pipe. Stir continuously. While stirring, I added zinc dust in small increments though a flour sifter. At first, you will see brown gold power being brought to the surface by the stirrer. Keep stirring. After 1 or more further additions, the powder will start to turn gray. When it's all gray, with no hint of brown, stop adding. Hang 2 zinc bars, near the top of the solution, and let it settle overnight.
> 
> ...


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## Smack (Feb 13, 2014)

I wonder if the Efftech unit could plate out the pm's. I don't have or use either so... :?: :idea:


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