# red ap



## scranney (Apr 20, 2015)

For my first attempt at doing hcl and peroxide on trimmed gold fingers. I added 3 liters of hcl 30% and 200ml of hydrogen peroxide 3% to about 550 grams of trimmed gold fingers. As soon as I added the peroxide to the hcl and fingers it went red and then I left it and a few hours later it is really dark maybe black. I searched around and found that a lot of the hcl in australia has mineral salts added to it to prevent it from fuming making it not work too well.

My question is should I leave it and see what happens?
if I do will it disovle my gold?

I think I have to try and find some uncontaminated hcl. And try again. Unless there is a way to recover it.

I remember reading somewhere a list of the ap process and the different colours. But I have been searching all afternoon and been unable to find it. If you know vould you please point me to it?


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## Geo (Apr 20, 2015)

Take a small amount of the dark solution in a clean vessel and start adding a little HCl slowly. The color should lighten to some shade of green. Did you add an air supply in the form of an aquarium pump?


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## jason_recliner (Apr 20, 2015)

> I searched around and found that a lot of the hcl in australia has mineral salts added


Where did you buy your HCl? What brand is it?


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## glorycloud (Apr 20, 2015)

Well, let me ask the obvious -> are the gold foils coming loose off of the fingers?
If so, let it go for a while. The AP solution does normally get dark as the process goes on.
You should be OK. Remember, this batch of fingers may only yield 2.2 to 2.4 grams
of gold when all is said and done.


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## acpeacemaker (Apr 20, 2015)

Some low grade HCl can have Fe2. Should not harm any of your processing though.


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## resabed01 (Apr 20, 2015)

I wouldn't be overly concerned. The fact that the solution turned dark after a few hours tells me it's working. Give it some time and air (through a bubbler).
I would like to comment on the amount of acid you used. I think 3 litres is too much for 550g of fingers. You probably could have got the job done with 1 litre of Hcl and cut it 25% to 50% with water.
Would have saved you the cost of acid and reduced your waste in the end. No harm done though. It's good practice to try and use the minimum amount of acid to get the job done and that will come with experience.
Keep an eye on it and give it a stir every so often, you should start to see foils floating soon. That's a indication all is working well.


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## Pantherlikher (Apr 20, 2015)

Just adding that peroxide and HCL will dissolve gold. Using the air bubbler from now on and any gold dissolved will drop out as powder as the AP works on other metals.

And yes, way too much of both to start but no problem, just store the fluid after letting powder settle. AP lasts a long time if lightly covered to allow "burping" of gasses as needed.

B.S.


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## scranney (Apr 20, 2015)

I bought the hcl from bunnings the brand name is bondall.

So I went and checked on the process this morning and it has steam coming off it. It was a cold night last night and the morning sun is warming it I geuss. So I decided I didnt want to be around all the vapors so I didnt take a sample in the jar. But I noticed little bubbles in the solution. I geuss that is a good sign right? However there are no foils floating around yet it has only been 14 hours.

I do not have a air bubbler as I could not figure out how to get the thing away from my house and still provide power to it safely. So I just put extra peroxide in.

The reason I had to use so much hcl was because I had a design floor with the bucket as I put one inside anouther with holes drilled in it like i saw on one of lasersteves videos i think. I did not realise untill I was pouring the acid in.

I hope I dont disolve too much gold.


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## Deano (Apr 20, 2015)

Check the HCl % on the acid, if it is 28% then the acid has been used for treating concentrates from heavy mineral plants.

It will contain Titanous chloride as a reducing agent, when oxidised to the titanic salt it has a purple red colour.

This acid is also sold under the Diggers brand.

Deano


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## Pantherlikher (Apr 20, 2015)

You need to have O2 bubbling in AP for it to be effective. Adding more peroxide will work but will also dissolve gold. 
You need to wait untill foils are off/gone, then test for dissolved gold in solution. You don't want to lose gold when you dispose of the AP.

B.S.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 20, 2015)

scranney said:


> I bought the hcl from bunnings the brand name is bondall.


That's the same brand that I use and I have never seen what you describe. Consider also the peroxide, or whether there are contaminants in your containers or fingers.

And you don't keep to want to keep adding peroxide. Just a splash to start is plenty, then find a way keep your AP oxygenated. If you can't get power to it, consider a longer air hose.


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## acpeacemaker (Apr 20, 2015)

scranney said:


> I bought the hcl from bunnings the brand name is bondall.
> 
> So I went and checked on the process this morning and it has steam coming off it. It was a cold night last night and the morning sun is warming it I geuss. So I decided I didnt want to be around all the vapors so I didnt take a sample in the jar.



I heard a story once and can't remember if it was the forum or not. But, someone had left HCl outside one night and they had some major foggy mist in the area. Half the neighborhood ended up having rust spots. Anyways, just saying moisture in the air can carry it a ways.


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## MrMylar (Apr 21, 2015)

You added way too much peroxide to your solution. That color may be the result of it too. No matter the outcome, save your solution, and then stick a piece of CLEAN copper into it, and let it sit there a day or longer because you may have gold that dissolved and it's in the solution.

If you have bare fingers and no floating gold or gold flakes anywhere in the solution, then you have dissolved your gold. It happened to me before, but, my solution still was light green. I had used too much peroxide. You used way too much peroxide.


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## scranney (Apr 21, 2015)

I gave it all a good shake and the solution seems a lot clearer than yesterday. There were no vapors so i didnt wear a mask and i had a slight chlorine smell and no gold flakes in it and it seems like the fingers are still unpeeled. I dont know what is going wrong. I followed lasersteves video but he added more peroxide. But I geuss if I have disolved gold I dont want to add more or do I have to now?
should I just stop it all?
not quite sure what to do now.


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## Pantherlikher (Apr 21, 2015)

Test the solution to see if positive for gold. If so, let it sit as it's still working. It does not work immediately. AP takes a long while to work .

B.S.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 21, 2015)

Now you wait.
Without a bubbler, and in cool weather, I expect you won't see much action for a week or two.

Where in Australia are you located?


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## MrMylar (Apr 21, 2015)

scranney said:


> I gave it all a good shake and the solution seems a lot clearer than yesterday. There were no vapors so i didnt wear a mask and i had a slight chlorine smell and no gold flakes in it and it seems like the fingers are still unpeeled. I dont know what is going wrong. I followed lasersteves video but he added more peroxide. But I geuss if I have disolved gold I dont want to add more or do I have to now?
> should I just stop it all?
> not quite sure what to do now.


Because it appears you don't know what you're doing, do yourself a favor and DO NOT shake any solution. Buy a glass stir rod or a bubbler/air filter pump and do it that way. DO NOT shake any acids and you're not even sure what to do next. Stirring will give the same results of the shaking, WITHOUT the possibility of you shaking acid on yourself. That's crazy. I'm not sure where you heard or learned that from, but I've been refining for almost 3+ years now and I have never shook any acids. Don't do it.

If the gold is still on the fingers, then that most likely mean that the solution haven't worked to its capacity or, you may have other junk in the solution that is on your fingers. Any components on the fingers can and will hamper your recovery efforts if they're still attached to them.

There should be no capacitors, relays, chips, or ANYTHING on your fingers except the fiber board and the gold strips. Anything else, the acids are going to attack them first and then the gold last, for the most part. By then, you've wasted your chemicals and haven't even begun the main process.

DO NOT add any more anything to what you have until you understand what you have. If you stir it every so often (an hour or so, it'll do the same as having a bubbler. It's more labor intensive to have to check it and stir it, but at least you'll get the knowledge you'll need to be refining gold fingers. 

I really hope you've read Hoke's book or you're still reading it because there is your foundation on refining. Learn from that. Hoke's book will teach you because it expects you have never touched, refined or dealt with this field before. But, if you have experience in this field, it'll boost your knowledge up even more.

Oh, and as was mentioned to you before, some processes may take days to complete. Don't expect an overnight sensation with this. Your life and others are on the line every time you use and combine the acids needed to refine. This is not a "_*I messed up, but that's ok*_" deal here. You have to understand and learn where you messed up. 

The mixture of the acids?
The time I let the mixture work?
Did I use too much of this or that?
Did I use enough heat or too much?
What is the weather like while working outside?
Did I dispose of my solution or did I properly pour it into a "stock" bucket?
Do I have enough material to refine?
Is that gold fingers or copper fingers?
... and on and on and on...

Another thing to help you out on this forum if possible for you and anyone, and that is to include photos of what you have. Photos have a way of letting the gurus here look and pretty much tell you what is possibly your problem(s), on any refining subject at hand. Take pictures and post them. Show the steps and let others learn from the photos and others help give the needed advice you need.

Refining with acids is very dangerous, and so is leaving your home everyday to go out into the public.


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## scranney (Apr 21, 2015)

Ok.
I am in Perth.
I will give it a stir a few times a day to.
thanks for all the help and reasurance I was anxious about it all.
good thing i had a lid on it or else my fence might have corroded away with all the vapors this morning.


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## Shark (Apr 21, 2015)

Do not use a lid while it is sitting. Oxygen is needed for it to work properly, and is the reason everyone is suggesting the use of an air pump. If you seal it up, it may explode, uncovered it can make use of the air for oxygen. An air supply such as used in an aquarium will work fine for small lots.


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## scranney (Apr 22, 2015)

Yeah. I geuss I am learning a lot.
the lid I put on is just a loose fiting lid sitting on top.
seems like very tiny specks of gold in the solution today. Not full foils just specks and some whiteish some yellowish/broen salt? spots up the wall of the bucket.
I geuss it is just working really slow. I try and airate it a few times a day.


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## Geo (Apr 22, 2015)

Not sure how common they are where you live but we have a portable pump sold at bait and tackle shops that use batteries. It is to aerate live wells and minnow buckets. Replace the short hose with a longer one to keep the pump away from any fumes. I use the blue bubble stones sold at wal-mart.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AERATOR-MARINE-METAL-BUBBLE-LIVE-WELL-AIR-PUMP-FOR-BAIT-4-MINNOW-B-11-/310728586079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4858ddf35f


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## geedigity (Apr 22, 2015)

How long do the blue stones typically last when used for the AP process? I haven't had much luck with the black stones sold at a local garden supply shop. Now I use a piece of quarter inch diameter poly tubing that I wrapped a strip of 1 micron nylon filter (from a bag filter) around the end of the tubing that sits in the AP. I doesn't give me the fine bubbles I remember the stones first produced, but it seems to hold up fairly well.


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## Geo (Apr 22, 2015)

I normally get about twenty pounds of pins dissolved before the oxides clog it up. A good soak in ammonium hydroxide will remove the oxides though. A little trick I discovered by accident. Rinse well before placing back in AP.


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## philddreamer (Apr 22, 2015)

> How long do the blue stones typically last when used for the AP process?


I have 4; I bought the first one about 3 years ago, (at Walmart), and it still working! 8) 

Phil


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## Anonymous (Apr 22, 2015)

Ha! Geo I've just bought a pair of these on your recommendation 8) 8) 

Great idea mate.

Jon


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## MrMylar (Apr 22, 2015)

scranney said:


> Yeah. I geuss I am learning a lot.
> the lid I put on is just a loose fiting lid sitting on top.
> seems like very tiny specks of gold in the solution today. Not full foils just specks and some whiteish some yellowish/broen salt? spots up the wall of the bucket.
> I geuss it is just working really slow. I try and airate it a few times a day.


If you have specks of gold as you said and not full gold flakes, then you most likely dissolved some of your gold. With that said, you should first take out all the board pieces that you know are fully stripped of the gold or wait it out until all of the pieces are stripped. And just so you'll know, those specs will probably be dissolved too in a matter of time if it stays in the solution, with or without a bubbler. That's because there was too much peroxide in the solution.

Still, after everything is said and done, place a piece of clean copper pipe in the solution, and if the pipe starts to form a brownish/dark brown sludge on it, then that should be your gold.

To make sure you gather all or much of the gold effectively, pour the solution into a glass breaker first, then add the copper pipe or bar. Do not use plastic for this procedure. Be prepared to let it site for a few days possibly. Make sure to stir the solution every hour or so to keep the solution active enough to attract the gold to the copper. Don't consider all the gold recovered by just sticking in the copper. You need to have a bubbler or stir the solution as described earlier.

Hope this helps!


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## scranney (Apr 23, 2015)

Thanks. I will do that. The solution is working very slow. It is day 5 and just has a few foils in it. How much gold do you think is in the solution?


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## jason_recliner (Apr 23, 2015)

I have had a static fingers batch sitting for about two weeks and it's just getting black a few days ago. But I didn't use any H2O2, just maybe 50% of old AP.
By static, I mean without a bubbler, just sitting there.



> How much gold do you think is in the solution?


So since yours turned almost black in just a few hours, my guess is "potentially a fair bit". But how long is a piece of string?

If you recover your gold, by cementing it out as fine blacking powder with copper as described above, you will need to test your remaining solution with Stannous Chloride to determine whether you have removed it all from solution.

But if you don't want to cement it all out now, that's ok. Keep your old copper and/or gold loaded AP. You can reuse it in future batches and never need add peroxide again.


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## scranney (Apr 27, 2015)

So after 1 week all of the gold has come away from the fingers. I just lifted the inside bucket up and down a few times a day to get oxygen into the solution. Maybe not as good as a bubbler but it worked. 
After filtering the ap solution into a bottle for later I noticed there was a hole in the filter papper and the ap solution has lots of gold specks suspendid in it with a few foils on the bottom. I thought I will just collect them all later when I cement the disolved gold out. 
But I managed to get approx 2 teaspoons of gold foils is that low for 600g of fingers? I dont really know but I have made mistakes learnt a lot and am just proud to have some as a result. Next step is to recover the lost gold.
Thanks for all of your help and advice everyone here is a pic of what you helped me acheive.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 27, 2015)

My gut feeling is that it is not a bad yield, though you're working with more material than I have. It will vary of course, depending on the origin of those 600g fingers and how closely they were trimmed. There's no fixed figure.

Now remember, what you now have in foils is probably about 30-40% gold by weight.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 27, 2015)

Drying your foils and weighing them is probably a good idea too. Record everything. After all, the only yield that matters is your own.
If you choose to recover any dissolved gold now, I'd do that before refining your foils. Then you can put them all together into HCl/Cl, assuming that's your chosen plan.


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## scranney (Apr 28, 2015)

So I made some stanus chloride and tested the ap solution. It is a light brown colour. So I did disolve some of my gold. But as it is only a light brown that means there is only a little gold right? I will just leave it for now if it is only a little bit.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 28, 2015)

Weeeell, I would be looking more for purple than brown. Refer to point #10 here. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=562

There's a also a possibility that all the nickel, copper et al has cemented your gold down as brown powder. Or that you never dissolved much gold in the first place. Or that your stannous is not working. Being a positive-only test, you really need to test that it can test a positive. That will require gold in solution.

You could make some gold solution by sacrificing a few foils in a couple of drops of HCl and adding a single drop of bleach. Let it sit a while, or heat it gently, to expel chlorine and you have some test gold in solution. It's always good to keep a small bottle of gold solution on hand for testing your stannous chloride is still working, as the latter goes off in just a couple of weeks.


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## Geo (Apr 28, 2015)

Stannous chloride will precipitate a small amount of copper in a saturated solution like AP. Brown is a false positive.

Stannous chloride will detect minute amounts of gold in solution. If you suspect that there is gold in a solution that is saturated with copper, dilute a sample of the solution with HCl and test that sample. Don't trust the initial reaction but let it sit a couple of hours and dump the sample in the sample container and check the stain left behind. If gold was present, it will leave a purple stain behind. This is the reason I quit using Q-tips and bought a spot plate though white plastic spoons will work in a pinch.


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## rickbb (Apr 28, 2015)

I use a white paper towel. Dilute a small sample of the AR with distilled water 3 to 1, put a drop on the paper towel, then next to it place a drop of stannous chloride. Not on top of each other but close enough that the drops run together. Where they meet will turn dark purple/black IF you have gold in the AR.


Edit; correct spelling.


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## scranney (Apr 29, 2015)

I made a small gold solution with a couple of foils and hcl with bleach. It went dark purple/black With the stanus chloride. Tried the ap solution again and it just stayed the blue/green colour.
by the way my stanus chloride is a light purple. I was watching your videos geo and you said it shloud be clear. I just used Solder in hcl warmed it under a candle until it fizzed then left it over night. The following day it is a light purple. Could that just be the silver In the solder?


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## Geo (Apr 29, 2015)

scranney said:


> I made a small gold solution with a couple of foils and hcl with bleach. It went dark purple/black With the stanus chloride. Tried the ap solution again and it just stayed the blue/green colour.
> by the way my stanus chloride is a light purple. I was watching your videos geo and you said it shloud be clear. I just used Solder in hcl warmed it under a candle until it fizzed then left it over night. The following day it is a light purple. Could that just be the silver In the solder?



I doubt it because even though silver can look purple using stannous chloride, it would have to dissolve first. HCl does not dissolve enough silver to color the solution in my opinion. I could be wrong and someone else can give a better answer. There are several different metals that can look purple as a colloid. Any combination of red and blue. You really should use stannous chloride that isn't already purple. :lol:


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## jason_recliner (Apr 29, 2015)

My first stannous was an odd colour, a very pale purple IIRC. There's a photo in one of my early posts. But you said you had a *dark* purple/black reaction with the gold solution, which is what you're after with gold solution. If I understand you correctly, you've positively confirmed your stannous chloride is working. Thumbs up!
The fact that it's not reacting with your AP now suggests it is likely negative for gold. Or at least not very much if any. That is a result consistent with it sitting on foils for a week.


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## scranney (Apr 29, 2015)

Do you think that it is a pale purple because of the acid I used the stuff from bunnings. Or from the solder?
it sounds like I have exactly the same colour stanus chloride, pale purple. But the main thing is as long as it works.


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## rickbb (Apr 29, 2015)

If your source HCL was colored with those "low fuming" buffering additives that could explain the color of you test solution. But as long as it works.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 29, 2015)

scranney said:


> Do you think that it is a pale purple because of the acid I used the stuff from bunnings. Or from the solder?
> it sounds like I have exactly the same colour stanus chloride, pale purple. But the main thing is as long as it works.


My HCl is also Bondall from Bunnings. I expect there was just one time contamination in my container that made it pale purple.
You can see a picture of it here: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20099&p=209736#p209736

But I consistently make crystal clear stannous chloride now, and I'm still using the _same _bottle of HCl, and still using the_ same _bar of lead free solder, which is basically just tin. If you're using 63/37 solder or similar, does it contain a flux core? That could well be responsible. But it will still work, as you have proved.


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## scranney (Apr 30, 2015)

mine looks exactly like your first one. I noticed you did yours in an old hot sause bottle I did mine in an old spice bottle. I wonder if I make a second batch if it will be clear.

have you melted any of your gold yet? I have been looking at the washing steps and some say to boil it for 30mins in water then in HCl. I know this is to get your gold pure. But would it still wash ok without heating? I am worried about breaking my glass and loosing my gold. As I would perfer slighty dirty gold as none at all.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 30, 2015)

scranney said:


> mine looks exactly like your first one. I noticed you did yours in an old hot sause bottle I did mine in an old spice bottle. I wonder if I make a second batch if it will be clear.
> 
> have you melted any of your gold yet? I have been looking at the washing steps and some say to boil it for 30mins in water then in HCl. I know this is to get your gold pure. But would it still wash ok without heating? I am worried about breaking my glass and loosing my gold. As I would perfer slighty dirty gold as none at all.



It needs to be washed with hot boiling water with good glassware. If you have good glassware you have very little to worry about it breaking.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2015)

I use old coffee pots to boil in. I also use a pyroceram dish as a catch pan in case it breaks.


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## scranney (May 1, 2015)

Yeah I was thinking of an old coffee glass jug I might have a look at some op shops for one with a hotplate too.


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## jason_recliner (May 1, 2015)

scranney said:


> Yeah I was thinking of an old coffee glass jug I might have a look at some op shops for one with a hotplate too.


Good plan. Your local Salvo's is perfect for the $5 coffee maker.
These things are typically limited to about 95-110°C - so as long as you don't put a cold jar on a hot plate (been there, done that, cracked it, learned), they're quite useful for any glass receptacle. I keep an old Breville (everything north of the hotplate is removed) outside for heating all sorts of solutions.


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## scranney (May 3, 2015)

Nice find at the sunday market. Wouldnt budge past $10 though.
when you wash, do you just warm on the hot plate as I dont think it will get hot enough to boil.


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## jason_recliner (May 3, 2015)

I have always used a coffee maker with the upper parts removed. Great for heating. Useless for boiling.

Mine only heats most loads to about 85°C. For boiling, in proper beakers, I bought a $15 potable camping stove from Bunnings, and I also use the bottom cut from of a large tin as a heat diffuser. For I hold a view that one should not apply direct flame when heating glassware, whether borosilicate or jam jar.

The majority of coffee pots are borosilicate. They have a higher resistance to thermal shock, but treat them kindly and they will do the same.


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## jason_recliner (May 3, 2015)

You've effectively got two parts which can be used independently; the heating pad and the coffee pot. You can use the pot for boiling with a more powerful heat source, like a gas stove. And you can also use the hotplate for _heating _ most anything other than its matching pot.

But unless it's borosilicate, never put a cold or wet glass jar onto an already hot hotplate. I've lost a jar or two that way. I believe I am fortunate in that that they've only ever cracked and never ruptured.


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## scranney (May 6, 2015)

Yeah I think I remember from science we put wire mesh on top of the tripods then sat beakers on top when using them to boil things with the bunsen burner. so it wasnt on direct flame.
I think I will have to hold off on the refining until I am more confident for this step as there seems to be quite a few areas to make mistakes in.
good thing you managed to keep your gold.


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