# Need Advice! - Hard Drive Destruction



## bmackay (Jun 14, 2011)

Hello All,

I process large quantities of complete Hard Drives (HDDs) and need the fastest possible form of destruction that does not involve shredding or completely bending the drives. 

I basically need a process with a cycle time of less than 10 seconds that leaves the controller board in decent shape but renders the hard drive useless. I have seen all of these machines that you can buy but all of them are too slow or don't do what I need them to do. I have also tried basic drill presses, but they overheat quickly.

Using a large hammer is possible, but I want an easier process than that...

Does anyone have a hydraulic press or another method to do this??

Any help is greatly appreciated!!


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## dtectr (Jun 14, 2011)

is removing the controller board first an option?


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## bmackay (Jun 14, 2011)

No, not really. 

We need a very streamlined operation that takes the minimal amount of time to do that...removing the boards would be time consuming. I may have too much wishful thinking of doing it in less than 10 seconds, but I feel there is some method out there....


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## shadybear (Jun 14, 2011)

I saw one once that was used by a company who got computers from companies
for destruction it was a big magnet which rendered the harddrive
non-useable and destroyed any info that might be on them
It looked like he built it but it worked.


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## Anonymous (Jun 14, 2011)

bmackay said:


> I basically need a process with a cycle time of less than 10 seconds that leaves the controller board in decent shape but renders the hard drive useless.


Thats easy......a strong degausser(electromagnet).It rearanges the bytes(0's and 1's) in such a manner that the hard drive is completely unusable afterwards.It only takes a few seconds,and you could build/buy one relatively inexpensively.Plus you can destroy countless drives at once,simply by moving the degausser over a pile of drives,that is,if it is strong enough.It is a non-destructive way to destroy a lot of HDD's fast.
You can use a TV degausser,or a very strong (non electric) magnet,but best case scenario you will only erase the information,you will not render the disks unusable.


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## silversaddle1 (Jun 14, 2011)

Here you go. A $100.00 35 ton punch press in action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLESiPjy3Mg


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## Claudie (Jun 14, 2011)

I would l think that you could modify that into quite the planchet punch. Make some dies to stamp your own silver or gold rounds. :|


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## Anonymous (Jun 14, 2011)

That is one heck of a machine! I could think of many uses for that around here.
Unfortunately in his first post,he stated he was looking for a method that did not completely bend the drives.
But back to that machine,did you build it?If so I would love to know how.I would love to have one of those around!


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## bmackay (Jun 14, 2011)

silversaddle - that is an amazing machine...where did you get a press like that??! I feel that even though that is a super quick way of complete destruction, we may be able to modify a very similar machine to do what we need for destruction.

mic - I have read a lot into degaussing hard drives but I am not sure that just degaussing meets all of the standards that US legislation demands. We have neodymium magnets around that have a pulling force of 250+ pounds, but is that enough alone?


This info helps me a lot...thanks!


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## Anonymous (Jun 14, 2011)

bmackay said:


> We have neodymium magnets around that have a pulling force of 250+ pounds, but is that enough alone?


No that would not be enough,or at least I wouldn't feel comfortable with it.
There are degaussers specially made for destroying HDD's.


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## bmackay (Jun 14, 2011)

mic said:


> bmackay said:
> 
> 
> > We have neodymium magnets around that have a pulling force of 250+ pounds, but is that enough alone?
> ...



I guess I should have phrased that a bit better...will degaussing in general be enough to ensure that there will be no data recovery??


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## goldenchild (Jun 14, 2011)

I'm pretty sure degaussing does make disks unoperable or should I say unrecoverable. We have one here and its used when we plan to never ever ever ever use something again. This opposed to just overwriting. I work for a DOD facility.

Some info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_remanence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_remanence#Degaussing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_remanence#Feasibility_of_recovering_overwritten_data


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## dtectr (Jun 14, 2011)

kind of my line of thinking - if you use a application-specific "known" device "certified" to completely wipe, have it documented by the mfr as such, have iso9001 procedures documented, as well as the training & certification of employees on those procedures; perhaps do random sampling every XX & document it, you should be covered - insurance & DOD-wise, I would imagine.

or, you could shoot them with a 12ga slug. 8)


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## silversaddle1 (Jun 14, 2011)

The punch press was bought from a local machine shop for $100.00. It's nothing fancy, just a 35 ton mechanical press. This press is also used to stamp out sterling silver conchos and spots for parade saddles. We have a whole collection of dies to make all different types of conchos. 

We prefer to crush the drives as to degauss them as the shielding on some of the newer drives is hard to defeat. Also, if you watch the video, you can see that you can still remove the controller boards after the drive is crushed. In fact, most the time the board will only have one or two screws left in it. 

We can adjust the press to crush the drive even more if we wanted, but this seems to be more than enough. 

As far as safe, well as you can see if you get your fingers in the strike zone, your gonna have nubs. But it's just about as safe as any other piece of equipment if you use your head when running it.

As far as production speed. With my son handing stacks of drives arranged in the right direction, we can crush about 20-30 drives a minute without pushing it. Makes a little mess but it's all good! :lol:


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## kuma (Jan 28, 2012)

Hi Flora , how are tricks?
I hope your well!



Flora27 said:


> This info are very useful for us,hard drives require data erased first because if it falls in the wrong hands they might risk data breach. Most of the time, their solution is to delete all the important folders, empty the recycle bin, or format the data before throwing it away.Thanks for your info.keep it up!



I could be wrong but I've been under the impression that any data simply erased or deleted can be recovered with certain software , and is often done so often by law enforcement agencies.
I'm sure that the only way to truly destroy data stored on a HDD is by the methods mentioned above , either by degausing or by the mechanical destruction of the platter.
I preffer to use a hammer , it makes noise :lol: 
All the best and kind regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:

( Edit to add , when destroying hard drive platters with a hammer , wear saftey goggles! Not all are aluminium , some are made of glass and these shed very nasty shards! )


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## jimdoc (Jan 28, 2012)

Flora is just a spammer.


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## kuma (Jan 29, 2012)

Hi chief , how are tricks?
Hope your well! :mrgreen: 



jimdoc said:


> Flora is just a spammer.



Gotcha' , 8) 
All the best for now and kind regards ,
Chris


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## lont1963 (Mar 22, 2018)

Hello,


What is some good software to wipe a hard drive when the Feds come knocking quickly?


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## silversaddle1 (Mar 22, 2018)

lont1963 said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> What is some good software to wipe a hard drive when the Feds come knocking quickly?



Small amount of C-4 ought to do it for you.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 22, 2018)

Since you asked, the feds are knocking on your door in...

5...

4...

3...

2...

1...

:mrgreen: 

Göran


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## FrugalRefiner (Mar 22, 2018)

Why would you have to wipe a hard drive if the feds come knocking?

Dave


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## jimdoc (Mar 22, 2018)

I think that is Hillary, hiding in the woods of Canada.


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## Geo (Oct 25, 2018)

Cordless drill. Drill a 3/8 inch hole (or bigger) through the hard drive, including the platters, and it is destroyed for all intents and purposes. You can remove the board at your leisure.


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## denim (Oct 25, 2018)

I use a Ramset nail gun to drive a 1" nail through each drive. Goes pretty fast with minimal initial investment. Nails and loads do cost a little but this is the fastest and cheapest method I have found.


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## snoman701 (Oct 25, 2018)

lont1963 said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> What is some good software to wipe a hard drive when the Feds come knocking quickly?



i used to have a system that had thermite situated so it would melt through the cover and the platters.

This was in the days of easy software piracy. I had probably a 1/4 of a million in engineering software and was foolish enough to think the feds cared of such things. 

Now anything on my computer has records of me downloading it on fifteen other servers throughout the world...and even if there were things on my computer that could get me in trouble, the feds still have more pressing matters.


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## Refining Rick (Oct 25, 2018)

Not sure if this attachment will work, but here is an idea I was toying with to pop holes thru hard drives. Put the hard drive into the slot and whack it with a hammer. The spring returns the punch to the open position.
I had originally thought to just hit the top rod with a hammer, but if one had a handy machine like that press there, you could just put this in there and use it to press down.


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## jimdoc (Oct 25, 2018)

Some covers are very thick stainless steel, some with and extra layer over the discs.
I guess you could go through the back on those.


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## Arbentor (Oct 25, 2018)

I'm in the IT field and I've worked in high-availability/high security environments. I've had occasion to speak directly with people that perform data recovery from damaged or "erased" hard drives.

Methods in use and their efficacy:

Software: 
Single or double pass full over-writes: Don't waste your time.

Full data writes with 7 or more passes: Works but nobody will guarantee it.

Physical:

Punching a hole, bending or scratching the surfaces of a platter: Unless you get most of all of the surfaces, data can be easily recovered by professionals. Do not trust these methods.

Full destruction: Metal shredder, acid bath or melting. This works reliably but it can be expensive.

Magnetic: A strong magnet (neodymium), wiped directly over the entire platter surface. I've yet to hear of successful recovery after this was done. Fast and cheap but you must be thorough. Good method but hard to validate or audit.

I dispose of ours through a company that documents each drive as it goes through a mechanical shredder. There is no other way that meets audit standards.


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 25, 2018)

Excellent first post Arbentor!

Welcome to the forum!

Dave


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## silversaddle1 (Oct 26, 2018)

Arbentor said:


> I'm in the IT field and I've worked in high-availability/high security environments. I've had occasion to speak directly with people that perform data recovery from damaged or "erased" hard drives.
> 
> Methods in use and their efficacy:
> 
> ...



Well who's standards are you talking about? NIST 800-88 r1 states degaussing by a approver degausser and then crushing or bending meets their standards. You must use a DOD/NSA approved degausser to degauss the drives. Most degaussers are not approved.


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## Geo (Oct 26, 2018)

If you are under government contract, I can understand total destruction. I have acquired lots from the Army Material Acquisition Command at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville Al that required onsite destruction and there had to be an army liaison present to assure destruction before it left. Other than that, most scrappers are going to be working with the general population and short of tax fraud, ID theft or nudie pictures of someones wife, there's not going to be military secrets or life altering info stored on a home computer. In the every day real world, a three pound hammer should do the job nicely even if it is a bit loud.


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## snoman701 (Oct 26, 2018)

Geo said:


> If you are under government contract, I can understand total destruction. I have acquired lots from the Army Material Acquisition Command at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville Al that required onsite destruction and there had to be an army liaison present to assure destruction before it left. Other than that, most scrappers are going to be working with the general population and short of tax fraud, ID theft or nudie pictures of someones wife, there's not going to be military secrets or life altering info stored on a home computer. In the every day real world, a three pound hammer should do the job nicely even if it is a bit loud.



It's honestly not even necessary to do the three pound hammer route. Just strip the board, sell the rest to a shredder. The identity thief that is good enough to replace the board and recover the data has MUCH easier targets to go after. 

There's few of us that need to worry about such. Even the big buyers are now reselling the best hard drives to refurbishers after reformatting, and they have insurance companies willing to cover the risk involved. 

I was surprised when I learned this, but it makes sense.


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## Arbentor (Oct 26, 2018)

silversaddle1 said:


> Arbentor said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in the IT field and I've worked in high-availability/high security environments. I've had occasion to speak directly with people that perform data recovery from damaged or "erased" hard drives.
> ...



Technically, you are correct. Pragmatically, I haven't engaged with any companies using this methodology. Your experience may be different. 

Im not trying to mislead anyone. Just providing a pragmatic perspective (my viewpoint) on what works and what might be risky. 

If I were destroying "random" hard drives I would degauss.

Taking hard drives for destruction from a large merchant, bank or some other data aggregator (like the company I work for) is a whole different ballgame where the equipment to do the job is only a small part of the cost. Building auditable, reliable processes and good record keeping is very expensive as are the audits themselves.

Government/Military is another level beyond that.

Side note: This a short term problem. "Spinning Platter" hard drives are going away like VHS video and 8-Track tapes did many years ago.


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## Arbentor (Oct 26, 2018)

Geo said:


> If you are under government contract, I can understand total destruction. I have acquired lots from the Army Material Acquisition Command at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville Al that required onsite destruction and there had to be an army liaison present to assure destruction before it left. Other than that, most scrappers are going to be working with the general population and short of tax fraud, ID theft or nudie pictures of someones wife, there's not going to be military secrets or life altering info stored on a home computer. In the every day real world, a three pound hammer should do the job nicely even if it is a bit loud.



This is a great way of making that distinction. I'm a little more "risk averse" so I would want to degauss first before whacking the platters.


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## anachronism (Oct 27, 2018)

Under European GDPR legislation the hammer route doesn't cut the mustard and with no offense intended the US is years behind Europe in the protection of personal data. But Mark my words the time will come when all the free IT collections will cease there too.

You guys need to be innovative and get ahead of the curve and offer a proper service. 

I'm typing this from my hotel room having destroyed over 5000 drives for a bank this weekend. The 42 tonnes of servers that came with, formed part of the deal so think on that and you'll be able to be ahead of the US bandwagon rather than watching it pass you.


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## snoman701 (Oct 28, 2018)

anachronism said:


> Under European GDPR legislation the hammer route doesn't cut the mustard and with no offense intended the US is years behind Europe in the protection of personal data. But Mark my words the time will come when all the free IT collections will cease there too.
> 
> You guys need to be innovative and get ahead of the curve and offer a proper service.
> 
> I'm typing this from my hotel room having destroyed over 5000 drives for a bank this weekend. The 42 tonnes of servers that came with, formed part of the deal so think on that and you'll be able to be ahead of the US bandwagon rather than watching it pass you.



It's not that the US is without regulation, only that it is without pre-emptive enforcement, a serious data breach by a small time operation will end with prosecution. My guess is that the prosecution, likely by the FBI since is it sure to be crossing state lines at some point, which also means that the operation will end up with an IRS audit, depending upon the amount of people screaming for blood. The regulations are state specific, but do exist. There are plenty of operations offering a proper service, with liability insurance in place to cover missteps.

Your operation is considerably larger than almost anyone who posts on this forum. Those operations that are of the same size as you, offer the same services, and they charge for them just as you do. It's not a curve that most can begin to understand. It's also not a field that is easy to enter in to. There's a lot of homework to be done. 

I think this is a common misunderstanding. The guys that are making it, backing their pickup truck up to a loading dock and making off with a couple hundred in scrap...they aren't doing it because they are operating within regulations. They aren't state approved electronic recyclers. They aren't RIOS certified. 
They don't have their paperwork or their procedures in place to be ISO certified. They haven't paid any municipal bonding. They have NOTHING to lose. As such, they aren't within range of affordable liability insurance. They are doing it because the operations manager of that particular company is likely lazy, and doesn't care enough to do their due dilligence to see that they are disposing of their own data according to the law. (the law in this case is largely dictated by tax code and labor code)


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## Geo (Oct 28, 2018)

Huntsville Al is the technology hub in the south. If it is security related, there are plenty of companies here to take care of it.


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## silversaddle1 (Oct 28, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > Under European GDPR legislation the hammer route doesn't cut the mustard and with no offense intended the US is years behind Europe in the protection of personal data. But Mark my words the time will come when all the free IT collections will cease there too.
> ...



I can find so many things wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin.


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## snoman701 (Oct 28, 2018)

silversaddle1 said:


> snoman701 said:
> 
> 
> > anachronism said:
> ...


So lay it all out for the readers. 

You have posted a picture of an obsolete press that would cost more to get upgraded to meet osha requirements than a small hard drive shredder costs....and you are happy to find fault with other posters, but really don't contribute otherwise.

What I know is that in my dealings in escrap, I know of two operators that will not sell me hard drives on a cash/market basis. One is a small computer store who prefers to destroy them himself. The other runs a data disposal company. In his words, "if my underwriters audited the drive disposal logs, I'd lose my coverage".

But that's for my messily little operation where I'm moving a thousand pounds of good boards a month. 

I can't grow more until I'm in commercial space, and then there are a dozen little guys and a few big guys within 50 miles that are all competing for the same medium size contracts.

These are $100k+ contracts. Not haulaway jobs.

You want contracts like what Jon is talking about, you have to have an operation with something to lose. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2018)

I'm not sure why people think someone has to be "of a certain size" to do certain things or to think in a particular way. Thinking in a certain way is what makes it possible to be of a "particular size." 

Upon joining the forum in 2012 I didn't do any of this kind of work. Anyone can build something and that was the point of my hurried post. 

Enjoy guys it was all meant in a good way. 8)

Edit for context and typo.


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## snoman701 (Oct 30, 2018)

anachronism said:


> I'm not sure why people think someone has to be "of a certain size" to do certain things or to think in a particular way. Thinking in a certain way is what makes it possible to be of a "particular size."
> 
> Upon joining the forum in 2012 I didn't do any of this kind of work. Anyone can build something and that was the point of my hurried post.
> 
> ...



You are very correct Jon. Thinking in a certain way opens doors. I study successful people...and I don't really associate much with people who aren't creative out of the box thinkers, so I take it for granted. But there's more to it than just the creativity. 

When I talk to others, that supposedly built businesses from nothing, they say they started with nothing...until you get to actually talking. Then you find that they had a scrap hauling business to start with, so they had the infrastructure to move, handle and ship 10,000 lb loads. Or they had $35k from another business that they got out of that they could use as startup funds. Or they were given a no-interest no payback loan from their Dad to buy all their inventory. Or they actually get a monthly check from the government. I've talked with you about the capital you started with. There's no shame in any of that, it's awesome in fact. I'll admit I'm jealous of it. I know that what you, and others built came hard, and that usually includes the starting capital. Even then, there is no doubt in my mind that they still fought their way in to the new venture, and there were lean times and growing pains and frustration...and that the way of thought that you describe was developed largely out of trial and error. I'm sure there were mistakes. Bad buys, bad sells...learning curve crap. I know there are still sacrifices. 

I haven't collected a traditional paycheck in two years and four months. And that time has been HARD. We have owned this house for two years and 6 days. Four months prior to that I was fired from a position where I was building wealth so my manager could hire his brother. I poured EVERYTHING I had into this house so we had something that couldn't get taken away...literally everything. As in within the first six months I was 88 days late on the mortgage because I was playing catch up. What hasn't been uphill with a stiff headwind was tumbling downhill. 

I've been stuck in survival mode for two years. I get a few grand in the bank, take a couple days and relax...then pay the bills for stuff that can't get shut off or taken away. Usually at that point, I've got enough left to go buy more inventory, to again build. No vacations, no steak dinners, no extras, just survive. The PROBLEM, for me, is transitioning from survival mode to a mode where I am building. 

What the reality is, is that finding the nuances that give one an edge comes pretty easy, always have...I'm able to survive, because I can find those nuances. I'll admit, it's not as easy to find them as it once was. I'm not sure if it's my mind, or that there is more competition for wealth that is within the reach of people with nothing. 

BUT...I get downright hostile at times, when people suggest it's easy. In the last two years I've waged war on my body with risks that the average employee would never consider taking. I wake up to back pain. I wake up to jaw pain from stress induced clenching. I struggle with depression and anxiety, and at times, even the will to live. When it comes to my drive, I have more in common with our posters from third world countries or other countries where they are willing to take risks that seem ridiculous to those in 1st world. Everything I own and have is in play. So I get downright upset when I'm told "there's so much wrong with that I don't even know where to begin". I'm SHARING my experiences. My blood, my sweat, my tears and most of all, my FAILURES. I don't paint a rose colored picture for other people.


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## nickvc (Oct 30, 2018)

Sno by doing exactly what you are doing your break will come, it only needs one and then others seem to just appear as if by magic but you have certainly earned those breaks which if you think about what you wrote about others they did too one way or the other. 
I really hate those oh it’s alright for you people because it rarely is, and if it is, it’s come at a cost that few are willing to pay and with risks few will take.


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## snoman701 (Oct 30, 2018)

nickvc said:


> Sno by doing exactly what you are doing your break will come, it only needs one and then others seem to just appear as if by magic but you have certainly earned those breaks which if you think about what you wrote about others they did too one way or the other.
> I really hate those oh it’s alright for you people because it rarely is, and if it is, it’s come at a cost that few are willing to pay and with risks few will take.



So I am told. One foot in front of another.   

And I recognize that the breaks are earned by most. Like I said, I study people, I ask. Most are happy to tell you of their lucky break and sacrifices, few are willing to tell you of their failures...you usually have to pry those out of them. 

I have a certain amount of respect for Silversaddle, as I know the work involved in any scrapping venture....it does NOT come easy. Actually, upon writing this, it now occurs to me why he would find e-scrap so easy. Compared to making good money on traditional metals, without running a yard, e-scrap IS easy.


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2018)

Nick and Sno you're correct. 

The pain is the thing people don't see. They see the end result and assume that you "had a lucky break" or you were handed it on a plate. 

Moving from survival mode into building mode isn't easily achieved and one can flit between the two quite regularly even during the course of any given period.

I understand the stress and worry. As an aside Nick's seen me in exactly that place on more than one occasion. The choice that people make when they want to run their own business involves an awful lot of sacrifices. Sacrifices that people who have a job don't have to make. Then the upside is that the financial rewards for getting it right are far better. There's absolutely nothing wrong with making the choice to have a stable career. It carries its own good and bad things so don't misunderstand me, this isn't a holier than thou post it's one about choice. 

I don't criticise people for putting other priorities to the fore, and going for stability and security. For some reason though, people who do well for themselves seem to be fair game and I'm not entirely sure why that's right.


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## nickvc (Oct 30, 2018)

anachronism said:


> Nick and Sno you're correct
> 
> I don't criticise people for putting other priorities to the fore, and going for stability and security. For some reason though, people who do well for themselves seem to be fair game and I'm not entirely sure why that's right.



It’s a simple reason they see their bosses getting richer and them getting better off but don’t understand the difference between one and the other, for many self employed people their whole life and everything they own and more is on the line at any given moment, the nice house,the cars,the way of life can vanish in one deal if they get it wrong, but the upside is if they get it right they go onto do the same again and again, taking the same risks until the challenge becomes a no risk venture, ie they are financially secure and no loss will change that.
I know a fair few very very wealthy people who do not need to work but enjoy the challenge it brings and the only proof of success is what it earns them, they don’t need the money but crave the challenge, are they lucky or is it just they love to take that risk that many won’t!


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## Shark (Oct 30, 2018)

The saying "No pain, No gain" certainly isn't limited to exercise. It rears it's head in all walks of life. It is how a person picks them self up and moves on that defines each one of us as who we are.


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## silversaddle1 (Oct 30, 2018)

There are many rags to riches stories out there. Me and my wife started out with a Stanley screwdriver set, a hammer, a pair of wire cutters and a short box chevy pick-up. Plus we worked two full time jobs, paid rent, and made payments on two vehicles. Then the kids came and it was even harder. We would drive a "route" every weeknight, diving into dumpsters to pull out any scrap metal we could. We made our own breaks, found our own contacts, and expanded the company inch by inch. Years and years of hard knocks, wins, losses, and grit has brought us to where we are now. Been self employed for over 20 years, 100% metal recycling. We still to this day roll up in pick-up type trucks and pick up electronic scrap from many local governments, banks, and companies, both large and small. We are fully insured, and our data destruction program meets all guidelines set forth in NIST 800-88r1. Our degausser is NSA/DOD approved and is a listed machine. We are not permitted by the state as Iowa does not require any permits for electronic recycling unless you are de-manufacturing CRTs. We have a very small customer list that keeps us more than busy for two people. We don't advertise, we don't do cold calls. All our contacts are made via "word of mouth" and we seem to get a few new clients every year. The recent downturn in the markets has hurt everyone, us included. We are lucky enough that we carry no debt on the business, so we are stockpiling all our gold bearing materials for now. The prices will come back, they always do. Until then, onward. 

There is so much e-scrap out there that new businesses seem to pop up every day. And some fall as well. The big guys got hit pretty hard in the plastics and CRT glass collapse. I have seen it first hand here locally where there is 85,000 pounds of CRT tubes sitting in a warehouse that was foreclosed on. 155 gaylords of tubes. Wanna deal with that?


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## snoman701 (Oct 31, 2018)

silversaddle1 said:


> We are lucky enough that we carry no debt on the business, so we are stockpiling all our gold bearing materials for now. The prices will come back, they always do. Until then, onward.
> 
> There is so much e-scrap out there that new businesses seem to pop up every day. And some fall as well. The big guys got hit pretty hard in the plastics and CRT glass collapse. I have seen it first hand here locally where there is 85,000 pounds of CRT tubes sitting in a warehouse that was foreclosed on. 155 gaylords of tubes. Wanna deal with that?



The debt is hard. I took out what should have been a microloan about a year and a half ago. It was just a working capital loan from paypal, cheap money with a rapid payoff because I set the payment terms to 30% of gross paypal payments. Weeks after taking out the loan, my plans of selling like crazy on Ebay were thwarted as my dads cancer took a drastic turn and he passed six months later....life has been a mess since. What I've found is that the otherwise small amount that I borrowed has left me completely crippled. I've ended up relying upon my income from refining and escrap sales, whereas before I was reliant upon Ebay for income and the opposite for business growth.

30% off the top doesn't seem like much when you've been doing and have plans to do $3,000 a week on Ebay...but when it turns in to listing when you have time, and you see a $25 sale turn in to a balance increase of $9.25 after shipping and fees...it's devastating to motivation.

I've got $315 left to pay off my loan. 

As for the competition....I don't get it. They show up at the rate of one a month. Thankfully, I rarely see the same one twice. 

I can say though, I'm really hoping for some clarity and payoff before the end of the year. I'm due.


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 31, 2018)

Life has a way of throwing us some terrible surprises. I'm sorry for the loss of your dad. I've lost both of my parents as well.

It sounds like you're at least about to turn the corner on that loan. I hope that will relieve some of the pressure.

I wish you the best in getting through your tough times.

Dave


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## Shark (Oct 31, 2018)

I can understand problems arising from the loss of family. I buried my favorite Aunt this summer and her son, one of my close cousins, as well. My mother and stepdad had been married for over 45 years. We lost him in May of this year and my Mother earlier this month. The one thing that keeps me going has been that they raised me to not quit. I have felt like it a few times the past few years, but where is the education in giving up. Your to close to let up now!


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## anachronism (Oct 31, 2018)

Exactly Shark.

Sadly the only two certain things in life are death and taxes. Life goes on and we owe it to the people before us to carry on. 

They wouldn't want us to lose our own way would they? 

Jon


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## snoman701 (Nov 1, 2018)

anachronism said:


> Sadly the only two certain things in life are death and taxes.



The revenue service offers very affordable interest charges for late payment of taxes. 

Unfortunately, it's not a universal solution to the certainties!


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## everydayisalesson (Nov 1, 2018)

Reading all these replies this morning, as I haven't been following this thread, has truly been an eye opener. For some reason, I have always felt like I am the only one getting kicked when I've been down. I look around and see people working full time and remembering the security I had. There are times when I want to kick myself but I keep telling myself that one day it will pay off. I'll be honest guys, I look around sometimes and wonder what I am going to do and a check will come in or I will get a call and its just enough to pay this weeks bills.
Thankfully my wife has been able to keep ebay going just enough to cover our truck payments. I see the light at the end of the tunnel, the only problem is the tunnel is long and has obstacles all the way through. I keep pushing and telling myself this is for the grandkids or I would have given up a long time ago. At this point, I have to go out and drive Uber for a few days, maybe weeks, to bring the bottom line back up to struggle mode. 
I want to thank everyone of you guys that have shared the experiences you are going through. It means a lot knowing I'm not alone. Its about time to get to work so I will talk to you guys later.

Mike


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## Geo (Nov 3, 2018)

Sorry to hear about that Mike. You don't share it with the group or I haven't seen it.


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## everydayisalesson (Nov 4, 2018)

Geo, Sonny has had it a lot worse so I don't talk about it. I didn't want to shadow over the issues going on with Sonny and April. 
I'm ok, got a roof over my head and bills have been covered so far. Just hasn't been anything extra for a while. Business has been slow going but I am getting my name out. I must be doing something right as I have repeat customers. I had troubles with advertising on Googles new adwords express program so I am ditching it and going to do just adwords. Hopefully that will put me back on track. 
Anyways, thanks for the concern Geo but I'm good.

Mike


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## snoman701 (Nov 4, 2018)

everydayisalesson said:


> Reading all these replies this morning, as I haven't been following this thread, has truly been an eye opener. For some reason, I have always felt like I am the only one getting kicked when I've been down. I look around and see people working full time and remembering the security I had. There are times when I want to kick myself but I keep telling myself that one day it will pay off. I'll be honest guys, I look around sometimes and wonder what I am going to do and a check will come in or I will get a call and its just enough to pay this weeks bills.
> Thankfully my wife has been able to keep ebay going just enough to cover our truck payments. I see the light at the end of the tunnel, the only problem is the tunnel is long and has obstacles all the way through. I keep pushing and telling myself this is for the grandkids or I would have given up a long time ago. At this point, I have to go out and drive Uber for a few days, maybe weeks, to bring the bottom line back up to struggle mode.
> I want to thank everyone of you guys that have shared the experiences you are going through. It means a lot knowing I'm not alone. Its about time to get to work so I will talk to you guys later.
> 
> Mike



I have an acquaintance with which I'll occasionally attend social events with. At the last one we were talking about his new job, he's an engineer. He joked how he negotiated for his vacation time...that he had so many years of experience and wasn't going to have only 10 days of vacation, how he took a $10k pay cut on the offer so he could have an extra two weeks vacation. I felt like crap following that conversation for days. He equates his time to being worth approximately $1,000 per business day. I was on the identical career path. I was going to one of the top ranked engineering schools in the country. Well....when my dad got sick with cancer the first time, his surgery was expected to take 4 hours, it took 16. I called work half way thru to call in for the next day (I was an engineering co-op, a senior). I was told I needed to reexamine my priorities. I did. 

My wife finally set me straight. My acquaintance is quick to tell me how he wants to do woodworking, and metalworking, and have a garden, and farm animals, and all these other things...but he doesn't have time to do anything. I do all these things because I want to do them, and I can. I don't get to take vacations to exotic places, but every day at 4pm, my daughter and I make dinner together. I spend every night with my family. Travel for work always has me home the same day, or I take my family with me. 

Everyone faces their own problems. I would say that people that I consider to be "highly effective" people, are for the most part, the most miserable people I know. There are few exceptions...the exceptions are always creative people that value their friends over everything.


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## Smack (Nov 5, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly the only two certain things in life are death and taxes.
> ...



I got behind in payroll taxes (940's & 941's) back in the 07, 08 area. Business slowed some :? They put liens on my property, business got better, and I have since sold the business. The day I got the letters in the mail from the gov. saying "Certificate of Release of Federal Tax Lien" was a good day. Per my accountant, I used the Tax Advocacy Group and they got all of the late payment penalties wiped and a lot of the interest.


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## everydayisalesson (Nov 5, 2018)

I appreciate the replies and I really hope I didn't come across as ungrateful. I have wrote about 6 responses so far just to delete them. All is good, I guess I was just feeling a little down that day. I am happy, as I am spending a lot of time with my wife and grand children. Trying to figure out a way to put something together to leave my children. My dad was a policeman 30 years and paid into everything he was supposed to. He got cancer at 73 and they cancelled his life insurance so basically everything he saved up for us was taken away. He left us the family land that his dad left him. 15 acres in Kentucky but my cousins up the same holler have all but started a red neck camp trailer park. Its really beautiful but there is also no work any where in sight down there. What do you do? 

Well guys, I am headed back to the garage. Take care.

Mike


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## Shark (Nov 5, 2018)

It is always easier to see the down side of anything, for some reason. I try to concentrate on the positive and keep moving forward. Sometimes it gets tougher, but then I just try harder. My wife and our family make it easier to see the up side. The day we buried my mother we found out that night our grand daughter is expecting. It will be our first great grand child. Talk about a roller coast ride, this summer has been it. Either super highs or super lows, seems there was no "normal's" this year. It took me over two years to reach 1 ozt of gold, so far this year I have done 6 plus. And I still use just one hot plate, :lol:


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