# First Mistakes



## lysdexic (Apr 24, 2014)

To paraphrase my father, there's no use being an idiot if there's no one there to see it. Well if he's able to look down and see this I'm sure he's chuckling. After 6 months of reading, gathering, reading, dismantling, reading... I had to DO something and of course made MANY mistakes. 

#1 - I don't have a "Lab Journal/Notebook" I'm old fashioned and need to write and read notes in order to learn and retain. All those "steps" seem to slip my mind and running to the computer every 5 seconds doesn't work.

#2 - Start with small experimental batches. Well that was the plan. I had about 8oz. of assorted pins and other gold plated contacts, different types, some with solder, some clean. When I realized I should have at least kept the tin bearing pins separate it was too late. I figured there would be enough gold to make my first bb anyway and if I screwed up and lost values it wouldn't be as bad as if it was 8oz. of fingers. So I poured all 8oz. into a 2 liter jar and filled it 1/3 full of 32% HCl .

#3 #4 & #5 - I didn't measure how much acid, so I didn't know exactly how much peroxide to add to start the AP (copper chloride) leach. Apparently the hydrogen peroxide I was going to use went to college with my daughter so instead of 3% I had 20% H2O2 used for bleaching hair (at least it didn't have any mystery ingredients according to the label). I didn't do a conversion. Going just from memory (see mistake #1) I thought it was about 2 cups H2O2 per 1/2 gal of HCl on Steve's video processing fingers. So I added a couple cap fulls (about a teaspoon). Watched and waited... nothing. 2 more cap fulls... nothing. So I poured in about a half fluid oz. Flash of dark green then the entire solution turned light green.

For the next couple days I had the reaction vessel in a warm water bath while I was outside and left it at ambient temp when I wasn't around. The solution got darker and many tiny foil flakes were suspended in the solution.

#6 & #7 Beginners always use too much (acid, peroxide etc.) No bubbler so no and then add a few more drops of peroxide and a little more hcl. There's a reason for decanting verses just filtering. There's a reason to be patient and let the process run to completion. I didn't research the AP process enough to really understand that it was the copper chloride doing the digesting and not the acid alone. So... to add fresh acid (being impatient) I had to pour off what was already there... instead of pouring it off and letting it settle I poured it through a filter. A couple hours later I have a small amount of gold flakes in a small jar covered with a few ounces of rinse water and several filters with visible values embedded in them.

There's more... the thing is, none of it had to go the way it did. All of you have given me the steps and the answers to questions I don't even have yet. I need to learn by doing as well as reading, until then it's just theory, a dream. And a computer screen just doesn't do it. When I finally started to get a bit of Hoke it was because I printed out the book and read it with a notebook beside me and took notes. That notebook was just placed in front of my monitor, old school... works for me. As I said there's plenty more if you'd like a laugh. The only values I definitely lost is when I tried to incinerate this little pile of hard won treasure, the ceramic pan I used is fine, the large purple stain on the bottom and the yellow stains on the sides give it a very distinct look. (I can almost hear butcher explaining the yellow being from AuCl and the purple from a SnCl & AuCl reaction as they were vaporized even though I don't know if that did or could happen) Thank you all for your time and patience. I wasn't going to start a topic ever without a need and haven't found the need yet. I'm just too tired to search and read right now.

Doug


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## Pantherlikher (Apr 25, 2014)

Everyone cringes while reading as it's always the same. Everyone makes these kinds of booboos before the light bulb gets brighter.

Anything with tin needs to be soaked in hot HCL, then rinsed. Does not get all the tin but helps. AP needs oxygen for the copper to digest copper. Air bubbles or more peroxide. The peroxide though will dissolve gold and drop it out when copper replaces it.

And yes, decanting all fluids before filtering. Less trapped in the filter to get out later. I have about 20 filters with almost nothing in them.

And finally here, several rinses before trying to incinerate. Gets rid of any tin left as well as any other base metals.

Doing a google search on AP will give more then enough reading on the steps so of course....DO IT...

Good luck and let us know what you do to fix it all

B.S.


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## lysdexic (Apr 25, 2014)

Pantherlikher said:


> Everyone cringes while reading as it's always the same. Everyone makes these kinds of booboos before the light bulb gets brighter.
> 
> Anything with tin needs to be soaked in hot HCL, then rinsed. Does not get all the tin but helps. AP needs oxygen for the copper to digest copper. Air bubbles or more peroxide. The peroxide though will dissolve gold and drop it out when copper replaces it.
> 
> ...



Thank you and so far the last suggestion was the first thing I did... well, after the STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING until you know what you're doing!, that I have also read many many times here. I gained a better understanding of the AP (copper chloride) process. I read numerous posts about incineration and found Harold's post explaining about it and butcher explaining how and why to wash the recovered PMs first. Those two member's posts stick in my mind but there were many others and I am grateful to all of you. I am ashamed to admit it but I also did the same thing (at the same time) with some circuit boards with gold plating. Including some cell boards I couldn't fully depopulate (those at least I soaked in warm hcl until the stubborn components came free). So far:

I took my fouled, filtered copper chloride solutions dumped them in a plastic pail and added clean copper and let it sit. A week or so later it was dark brown. I carefully decanted the solution til I saw particulate matter. I set the poured off solution aside to let it settle some more. I rinsed off and removed the copper leaving some fine black powder and a few surface mounted components that snuck by. The wash turned a pale blue (very dilute whatever it is). It's sitting untouched in the pail.

The pins I left in the jar. I poured some fresh hcl over them the day before yesterday, today the solution is a beautiful emerald green clouded with a lot of gold sparkles when stired. It's going to sit and wait for my aquarium pump. (It's busy doing 4 oz of fingers (step by step according to steve's video except I bought and put into use the air pump instead of more peroxide).

The small amount of recovered gold that I didn't vaporize I washed with water then hcl then water again as per the thread on 100 oz of pins. Without proper set up I was afraid of incineration so I digested with hcl/clorox (too much acid, too much clorox of course). I let it sit a couple days. I finally had what I was looking for a known gold bearing solution. I could not find tin antimony solder anywhere. Silver bearing I had was 95% tin 4.7% copper and .3% silver silver and copper are lower on the reactivity series so I wondered if it would work. The resulting hcl, cornflaked solder solution was crystal clear. No positive on the copper chloride (tin of course renders the test meaningless), but dipping a q-tip in the gold solution and putting a drop of the suspect testing solution yielded a purpleish stain that's still there. I don't want to rely on this testing solution, but it seems to work for now.

The filtered auric chloride I evaporated a bit (not enough to measure the volume just until there was no chlorine fumes) to drive off excess chlorine and precipitated with SMB (my scale only measures in grams or ounces so I used WAY too much SMB). The result after 3 days is a fine brown powder (not very much, but something). The solution still appears to have a brown tint starting half way down. Not sure if it's a reflection or more suspended powder. It's going to sit until I have more to process.

The mess of filter papers and other potential gold bearing mess are going to hang around waiting for a means to properly incinerate.

Knowing and dreaming about a thing are never the same as doing. I knew I would have to go off and forget everything I learned and screw something up. I would have liked to have made a first bb I could keep. Instead it's all going to end up in one button (or a big bb). That will always remind me to stop, think, be very sure of the steps, do it right the first time. I can be trained... eventually. Thanks again.

Doug

(edited to remove redundant word)


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## lysdexic (Apr 25, 2014)

I do have an actual question if anyone would be willing to offer advice. A few years back on a scrap metal run I picked up some scrap and in a box of assorted junk was a brown mailing envelope which contained a roll of silver brazing alloy wire. I believe the post mark was from 1958. It still had the tag on it... Engelhard Industries, American Platinum and Silver Div Grade E 301 .025 dia. (it weighs 10.4 oz). This was one of the main things that sent me on a search of how to refine PMs. It's sat hanging on a spike in the garage for years driving me nuts. Engelhard sold the platinum and silver division long ago, they were nice enough to give me contact info for the new owners but they never responded to my inquiries. I used some once to rebuild contacts in my starter solenoid (an hours work and a tiny amount of gas compared to much longer running around AND doing about the same amount of work plus the $100+ for a rebuilt starter... anyway). I am of course concerned about cadmium but also unwilling to throw away a couple (+ or -) oz of silver. I took a small piece of the wire, rolled it up and placed it in a small glass jar which I covered with hcl. The tarnish vanished almost immediately, the solution turned a light yellow and everything stopped. I have some suspicions about why it may have stopped reacting but no idea why it turned yellow. Any thoughts, comments, concerns?


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## Ian_B (Apr 25, 2014)

If it were me, and because of the amount you have I would:
Cut off a sample of the wire. say 10 grams.
In a beaker add 15ml's of distilled water,
Add 10-15ml of 68% nitric (or equivalent total volume) giving you a solution of about 25-30ml of 30% nitric acid (always add acid to water not water to acid) 
Then add your sample of wire to the beaker,
Cover with a damp filter paper, 
You can heat on a hot plate or leave in a safe area until all the wire has been dissolved.

If any wire or residue is left and no further reaction occurs decant the solution (pour the solution off of the residue through a filter rinse the residue 3 times with distilled water pouring all solution through a filter into the same container.

If no visible residue or wire is remaining I would still pour the solution through a filter and rinse the beaker once with distilled water.

add a flat piece of copper to the solution and wait until the reaction of of the silver nitrate converting to copper nitrate has finished leaving you a precipitate of Silver metal in the bottom of your container.

decant solution, rinse and decant 3 times. test solution for any other PM's also test the residue for any other PM's. If no PM's are present dispose of them in a safe and proper manner. 

rinse the silver powder one more time and then drain through a filter. 

Dry the filter and weigh the silver powder and this will give you an idea of how much silver you have in that wire.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 25, 2014)

Doug, as I read your notes, it's like you were watching me and wrote down almost everything I did.

I am in a very similar predicament. Despite also reading heaps here for several weeks before starting (but not with the benefit of CM Hoke), I made the same mistakes and am still similarly slowly going through my light blue stuff, my light green stuff and the yellow stuff. 

Good luck mate.


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## Geo (Apr 25, 2014)

Safety-Silv could have just about any other metal as an alloy http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Brazing.aspx look at the high silver index.


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## lysdexic (Apr 26, 2014)

Geo, thank you for the link, the thought looking up such alloys to see what they're made of and the effort of finding and posting the link. Cu, Zn, Sn and Ni all possibly present. Being made in 1958 Cd and who knows what else could still be there. It was very windy the only time I used any of it and I do remember white smoke (Zn fumes?) but no way I'm melting more to see if Cd's distinctive fumes form. 

By the way I've read many and gained much from your posts (and videos). The way you make things work with what's available reminds me of myself

Ian, thank you for detailing your approach. It sounds very much along the lines of all the other step by step processes I've read here. Each step preparing for the next in reaching the goal of recovery. Safety pointers are always welcome, the very first question should always be is it safe or how can it be done safely. Safety needs to be so ingrained that it is always thought of first and always mentioned no matter how well we all think we practice being safe. I forget too that others read this who have no idea of the risks and how to avoid them (danger to self, others, the environment and property).

I have no nitric at the moment and no source for it except to make it myself. I'm not set up yet to do that or comfortable and competent enough working with these dangerous chemicals to attempt that process... but I will get there. That wire has sat for years, it can wait a few more months. I'll keep your instruction handy and that will be my first use of nitric acid. Thank you again.

(edit) Something turned the solution yellow. So I wondered if the silver content could possibly be high enough to shut any reaction down... knowing how low carat gold behaves with acids. I'm not a chemist at all, but a light bulb went of (dim as it may have been.) (/edit) 

Jason Thank you. I knew I was not alone and part of the reason I posted my blunder was hoping someone else would see it and think twice. Yesterday I read a post by Gold and Silver Pro (I think it was) pointing out the dangers (safety and loss of values) of letting gold fever run the show. For myself anyway, I'm very compulsive-addictive. Knowing that and always looking out for it is the only way for me to control it. Tunnel vision of the treasure can range from death to loss of values. Is it safe? How can it be done safely? What steps need to be taken to accomplish the goal with minimal loss (or pollution/wastes). One thing you said does kind of bother me.



jason_recliner said:


> Despite also reading heaps here for several weeks before starting (but not with the benefit of CM Hoke)



Why without the benefit of C.M. Hoke? The very first thing I learned here was to take the cotton from my ears (well... eyes), stuff it in my mouth (...keyboard) and keep it that way until Hoke was read and understood. The wealth of information here is worth way more than any PMs I will ever recover/refine and being cast out would be the worst possible "loss of values" I can think of. 

Good luck to you as well. We can call this a learning experience to nurse the bruised ego.


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## nickvc (Apr 26, 2014)

If your in no hurry with the wire keep it for when you have nitric and other silver to process, chances are you will over do the nitric and the wire could be used to consume any extra before cementation with copper. At the price many have to pay and the difficulty in obtaining nitric it's not wise to waste it.


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## lysdexic (Apr 26, 2014)

Thanks Nick, no more hurries. I'll add that to the tool kit. Yes I have a 5 oz nugget of assorted purer silver and some contacts I melted years ago and all the silver bearing escrap I'm acquiring. If I couple your suggestion with Ian's (use the data from Ian's test to calculate how much silver was consumed to kill the nitric) I could use up all the nitric and still get a rough idea of yields on whatever I processed by keeping track of how much wire goes into solution and I'll have a reference as to what should be left over when the wire is completely digested. (sorry just thinking aloud) 

Doug


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 26, 2014)

Re: First Mistakes

When I was a bare beginner, I was dissolving about 1/4 bucket full of gold plated stuff with AR. It was for a guy that owned a scrapyard and I was doing it outside, behind his building. I had no catch basin under the bucket. I pre-mixed the AR (I knew no better at the time) and covered the material with it. It just sat there for awhile and then, all of a sudden, whoosh, it was violent and overflowing the bucket. By the time I got it calmed down, about 1/2 of it was soaked into the ground.

I never did that again. Screw-ups are much better teachers than when everything goes smoothly.


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## lysdexic (Apr 26, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> I never did that again. Screw-ups are much better teachers than when everything goes smoothly.



Most definitely. It's much like the difference between something hard won and something handed over on a silver platter.

I cringed at your story and had no problem imagining myself having done that. Thank you, at least I only lost for sure what went up in smoke the rest is somewhere in the mess. No recovering what went into the ground however. (I hate to admit it but very next project for me is setting up a catch basin).

Doug


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## steyr223 (Apr 26, 2014)

Gsp thats funny 
Well not the actuall event but to hear one of the
Top dogs say it .. 

I did the exact same thing 
Filled a 2liter beaker with watches,rings,bracelets,etc
Not Ar but 50/50 Hno3 ,i put over 1 liter of acid :lol: 
I never got it under control ,there was gold running down
My driveway over the grass and sidewalk and into the street 
The worst part was the guy whos gold it was ,was standing next to me

That was the only time i made that particular mistake

There were many more,i will bet you could pull an ounce or more from that front yard :lol: 

At least now since i found this form they are few and controlled where i can always recover and the most important note they are much safer to me the neighbors 
And the world we live in.
Steyr223 rob


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 26, 2014)

> The worst part was the guy whos gold it was ,was standing next to me


I was lucky, I guess. I was all alone and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I didn't tell the owner what happened. I should have. He ended up with about half and probably thought I was stealing from him. This is one of those dozens of crappy things that I've done, especially early in my life, that I wish I could go back and change. For some reason, in my advanced years, they now all keep cropping up in my mind. I think someone is trying to tell me something and I think I know who it is.


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## Geo (Apr 26, 2014)

I lost over a half ounce of gold due to steam explosions while force drying gold powder. I set up my hotplate on my work table and set up a visionware casserole to dry powder and placed the wet powder in it and turn on the heat and left. I obviously set the heat too high because when I got back there were craters in the now dry powder and wet powder all over the place. I remember finding some on an old satellite dish about fifteen feet from the table. At least it was my gold but it was a horrible mistake for me and about made me sick.


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## jason_recliner (Apr 26, 2014)

lysdexic said:


> One thing you said does kind of bother me.
> 
> 
> jason_recliner said:
> ...


Too many internet videos promising how easy it all is. I like think I had just enough foresight to at least try to understand what I thought was the entire process before starting, and I'd read a fair bit around this site which, at the time, confirmed the junk > fingers > goodbye copper > gold flakes > solution > powder > melt process I had in my head, but was not a member and therefore had no access to download files. And it appeared clear enough that I wouldn't need it. WRONG!!

Naturally, my case was not absolutely identical to what I'd seen and so it all went rather differently. Especially when I was too impatient, and put in too much HCl. And NaNO3. Ooh, it's not dissolving immediately. I must need more NaNO3.
I didn't even realise the HCl/Peroxide (before Copper Chloride starts its magic) was dissolving gold until this week; something the interweb vids promised wouldn't happen until nitrate got its teeth into it.

As you say, it's a far better education to get your hands dirty... which of course in this hobby is something I strive to avoid.

I'm still trying to recover my mistakes and still I make new ones. I made one yesterday while processing a large jar of waste acid. A very black powder sat at the bottom while new copper was still being eaten up, so I thought it should be worth collecting. Took a week to get it all out. I do not know what it is, but it's less obviously reactive than copper. Then I dumped fresh HCl on it to see whether it would stay solid, and put it on my coffee maker. It stunk of sulphur dioxide fumes (SMB) but stayed black suspension. It's only after I dropped my hot acid into water and the jar went basically clear that I realised: @#$%, I forgot to incinerate it and it's probably still nitrated. It's largely settling today, and I still don't know what it is. But it's a mix of black with almost lilac.


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## nickvc (Apr 27, 2014)

I think most refiners have disasters at some point but it does teach you not to the same thing again.
GSP I'd have to call that bucket disaster an honest mistake, not done with intent to deceive so I'd not worry too much we all mess up and sometimes don't know how to put things right.


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## lysdexic (Apr 27, 2014)

I see a glimmer of hope! Knowing that some of those I consider the experts (who I'm trying to learn from) have sometimes found the right path the hard way is encouraging. 



jason_recliner said:


> Too many internet videos promising how easy it all is. I like think I had just enough foresight to at least try to understand what I thought was the entire process before starting, and I'd read a fair bit around this site which, at the time, confirmed the junk > fingers > goodbye copper > gold flakes > solution > powder > melt process I had in my head, but was not a member and therefore had no access to download files. And it appeared clear enough that I wouldn't need it. WRONG!!



The roll of silver brazing wire is what led me here. I too found web sites and videos on how to recover the silver, but for lack of a better description, they all left me with a feeling the process was on the "sketchy" side. When I landed here and started reading, I joined then and there and forgot about the sketchy stuff I read. This forum immediately "felt" built on solid ground. (I have to admit Harold scared the heck out of me, but in a very positive way. The message I got was this is serious and very dangerous, take safety and the processes seriously, communicate clearly. The knowledge is free but you have to be willing to learn and able to feed yourself, no one wants to spoon feed you. If you can't have the common courtesy to follow some simple rules or respect those trying to help you ...you're gone!) 



jason_recliner said:


> Naturally, my case was not absolutely identical to what I'd seen and so it all went rather differently. Especially when I was too impatient, and put in too much HCl. And NaNO3. Ooh, it's not dissolving immediately. I must need more NaNO3.
> I didn't even realise the HCl/Peroxide (before Copper Chloride starts its magic) was dissolving gold until this week; something the interweb vids promised wouldn't happen until nitrate got its teeth into it.



I figured the AP (copper chloride) process and the HCl chlorox (sodium hyperchlorite?) process were the least dangerous and not quite as complicated so a good place for me to start. (I forgot also an HCl leach to remove tin) I chose the least valuable of my material to start with. I'm not ready to add nitrates, nitric or sulfuric acids to the mix just yet. At the very least I want to establish sound lab practices first. Already a number of times I've decided to check on a reaction and grabbed say the strainer bucket my gold fingers are being processed in. I'm just checking I don't need gloves right? Copper chloride solution can't be good for your hands or any other part of your body. If I were that stupid with some of the other processes ...well we know what could happen.



jason_recliner said:


> As you say, it's a far better education to get your hands dirty... which of course in this hobby is something I strive to avoid.



...see copper chloride comments above



jason_recliner said:


> I'm still trying to recover my mistakes and still I make new ones. I made one yesterday while processing a large jar of waste acid. A very black powder sat at the bottom while new copper was still being eaten up, so I thought it should be worth collecting. Took a week to get it all out. I do not know what it is, but it's less obviously reactive than copper. Then I dumped fresh HCl on it to see whether it would stay solid, and put it on my coffee maker. It stunk of sulphur dioxide fumes (SMB) but stayed black suspension. It's only after I dropped my hot acid into water and the jar went basically clear that I realised: @#$%, I forgot to incinerate it and it's probably still nitrated. It's largely settling today, and I still don't know what it is. But it's a mix of black with almost lilac.



I'm a little confused and I don't mean to sound like someone who knows what they are doing because I'm not. I'm just barely to the point where I just might be able to pursue being a beginner, not even an apprentice. You're processing waste acid with copper to cement values there's SMB and possibly Nitrates along with a black powder precipitate? Is this left over poor man's nitric (edit... I meant poor man's AR) that you dissolved gold in? Was it tested? Did any gold drop? Does free sodium nitrate mean there's still nitric acid that should be neutralized before gold can be dropped? I haven't really looked into the process because I don't plan on using it. I purchased 5 gal. of battery fluid (35%? {would have to go look} sulfuric acid) and intend to concentrate it to 98% and use Steve's formula for cold nitric which I plan to distill afterwards. That's still beyond my currant capabilities, so it'll be a while.

I used the AP process on 8 oz of pins (some with solder) and an undermined amount of cell and other boards with gold plating (and solder) + some cell boards that I used an HCl bath to remove components I couldn't remove manually. I had an unknown/untested stannus chloride and when I tested the solutions I didn't trust the results. After my incinerating fiasco with the gold foils I filtered from my two solutions, I did manage to make about 50 ml of dilute gold chloride which tested positive for gold with my suspect stannus chloride (I still consider it suspect but it is at least some light in the dark). My chloride solutions I used on the pins and boards I combined and placed in a 5 gal plastic pail (it still tested negative for PMs BUT it has to have tin from the solder and I was almost positive it had dissolved gold as well) and added a 3# coffee container full of clean (I should say degreased with NaOH and rinsed several times, there was a little surface discoloration on the copper) heavy pure copper pieces to the contaminated copper chloride solution. After about a week I carefully decanted the copper chloride solution (and a container of rinse waters) leaving me with some fine black powder still sitting in about a qt/l of water/solution (it has a very faint blue tint). I had to explain all of that to make clear where the black powder I have came from before I can ask for help dealing with it. In my case there could be gold in it. There could be whatever surface contamination the copper had on it. There could be any number things I know nothing about. If I decided to proceed with what I think I know I would gather and wash the powder (to remove as much chlorides as possible) incinerate (cringe) wash with water, wash in HCl, wash in water (to make sure I got rid of anything I could that is soluble in hcl or water. I don't think I'd try to melt it, I think I'd attempt HCl/bleach leach (?) and see what happened. I don't know that's what to do and haven't found any postings that deal with my situation (yet, still looking). I could just ask even though it IS here somewhere. I could just take the powders and call it the start of my stock pot. It can wait, I'll keep looking and I have a batch of fingers that yesterday were starting to give up their gold foils. There's no need to force the issue... baby steps.

Doug


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## Geo (Apr 27, 2014)

This is still a good ways from you but well worth the trip. http://greenwayproductsinc.com/ is in Knoxville Tn. and sell nitric acid in all sizes. If I remember right, you get the 15 gallon keg, the initial cost is around $250 because of the keg but every refill is less than $30. That's less than $2 a gallon. If you have an Approved container, you can transfer the acid and not have to pay the drum deposit. They will sell to anyone during regular business hours. You can purchase the acid and pay drum deposit and leave their lot and find a good spot to transfer the acid and take their drum right back to them. DO NOT USE AN UNAPPROVED CONTAINER. It would be best to consider the first purchase and deposit as one purchase and just return the drum for a refill.


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## lysdexic (Apr 27, 2014)

Thank you Geo. I have family in Rossville GA/Chattanooga TN. Now I have another reason to visit. I don't have anything I would want to transport it that far in even if it were considered approved. So if your price is right it's less than $5/l drum included (if I did the math right).


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## jason_recliner (Apr 28, 2014)

lysdexic said:


> I'm just checking I don't need gloves right? Copper chloride solution can't be good for your hands or any other part of your body. If I were that stupid with some of the other processes ...well we know what could happen.


I'm not actually sure whether you're being serious or joking. I wouldn't like the stuff to contact my skin at all. I generally wear nitrile gloves until I am working with water. Though I admit to the odd bit of handling without. AP will take off skin pretty darned quick.



> I'm a little confused and I don't mean to sound like someone who knows what they are doing because I'm not. I'm just barely to the point where I just might be able to pursue being a beginner, not even an apprentice. You're processing waste acid with copper to cement values there's SMB and possibly Nitrates along with a black powder precipitate? Is this left over poor man's nitric (edit... I meant poor man's AR) that you dissolved gold in? Was it tested? Did any gold drop? Does free sodium nitrate mean there's still nitric acid that should be neutralized before gold can be dropped? I haven't really looked into the process because I don't plan on using it. I purchased 5 gal. of battery fluid (35%? {would have to go look} sulfuric acid) and intend to concentrate it to 98% and use Steve's formula for cold nitric which I plan to distill afterwards. That's still beyond my currant capabilities, so it'll be a while.


Yes. Yes. No. Yes. Yes.

I didn't have stannous at the time, but copious SMB dropped my brown powder. Then a possum dropped my brown powder. I assumed the waste was now gold free, but after some wash-diluting, black stuff dropped a week later. Probably some nitrate evaporated? Reading here made me realise there might be more gold, I added copper. No more powder, yet, but I have enough acid in my jar to slowly get rid of a sensibly priced car.
Adding sodium nitrate (made from ammonium nitrate, thank you Nurdrage - I might be able to cut out the middle man in future??) to HCl will make a weak salty nitric. There's still probably enough nitrate to not drop any more gold despite the masses of SMB, and there's certainly enough of either to confuse my stannous tests. Even my nice, cleanest (SMB still free) "yellow stuff" makes for a purpley-brown test. I'm not touching it until I get the nitrate out. It's just sitting under a clear seedling cover on the front deck in the sun for now. I hope sunlight doesn't screw with it. My "light green stuff", which I know has gold "with a hint of copper", because I put some in and didn't take any out, does not give a stannous result. Probably because of the nitrate.


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## lysdexic (Apr 28, 2014)

Jason,

I was being sarcastic about not using gloves while handling copper chloride solution. I'm sorry I didn't make that absolutely clear. ANYONE could do a "surf by" and come to the conclusion that I knew what I was doing and personal protective equipment wasn't REQUIRED. It is! It's not just the danger of having flesh dissolved, many chemicals can be absorbed through the skin. I consider that possible with any and every chemical, solution and what not. When I look at what's known now compared to what was known when I took high school chemistry (the mid 70s), who knows what will be discovered in the next 10 - 20 years. When Hoke wrote "the book", tasting solutions to see if there was a sour taste was considered acceptable. Tasting is most definitely NOT SAFE. Handling containers of solutions without gloves is not safe. There is always the risk of a splash as well, so eye protection at the very least. I don't use my oxy-fuel torch without gloves, shaded glasses and non-synthetic clothing. If donning PPE (personal protective equipment) isn't the very first thing I do then I have no business doing it.

It's not really funny but I did laugh a bit about the possum, I always have to take wildlife into consideration. I could run into anything from bear and moose down to a skunk or weasel at any given time. Protect the values and safeguard the poisons. 

I decided to take the black powder that dropped from my botched AP leach (that tests negative for PMs) and attempt to digest it with HCl/bleach. I got a greenish yellow solution, thinking gold and copper. I let it sit over night. I'm going to test it this morning. I see why everyone hates tin, that's seems like the culprit. I was able to bring the fouled copper chloride back to life. As long as I can do that I'm going to let it work on waste copper (valueless circuit boards, the pins that had only a few flakes of gold left) until it's completely saturated. I thought Hoke only put PGM containing wastes in the stock pot, but it seems everyone here does or did what my thoughts were and put all PM bearing wastes in the stock pot. I'm thinking any more black powder I recover should get a HCl was and start my stock pot. Time for testing (with PPE donned), errands and more reading. Vacation is over back to work tonight  Best of luck Jason, we'll get there, all the answers are here just have to recover them and refine them.

Doug

edit - added missing parentheses


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## Pantherlikher (Apr 28, 2014)

Safety needs to be everywhere. The number 1 thing I harp on with the kids. "Why do we put all sharp knives in the right side point facing away in the sink before filling with soapy water for dishes?" "Why don't we just reach and grab dishes with glasses in soapy water?" Both will severly cut you. From dish washing to lifting and carrying anything. Always think safety...

The stock pot...
It is not just for recovering PMs still in solution...
It is for rendering all solutions to inert liquids and solids. Envirenmentally safe.

My first stock pot has copper metal in it at all times to drop any PMs.
Then, it is on to the copper dropping pot...Has steel in it.
After that, evaporate and raise PH to begin dropping everything.

Now so far, I have only used HCL, bleach, & peroxide so like acids go in the first.
When I start to use nitric, I will have another stock pot for AR related solutions. Slightly different in solutions as it could dissolve PMs if not properly rendered.

B.S.
...Worst dangers are the ones you overlook...


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## lysdexic (Apr 28, 2014)

Thank you Pantherlikher. I'm a big boy now and don't have someone standing behind me to slap me up side the head or give me a swift kick in the seat when I really need one. It's all my responsibility. I don't take a disregard for safety lightly even if I had appeared to. Thanks again for the reminder, I personally believe a much harsher chewing out would be in order is in order for me being such an idiot.

Ok... I had an idea and not sure how well it will go over. Where Jason and I are a couple of Noobs going through similar screw ups and all the answers are all ready here... this would be a good place for posting the links to topics where the "big dogs" (I mean that in a most respectful manner) have already explained "it" for the 100th time. Seeing how stock pot was my currant research item and Pantherlikher just brought it up (Thank you) here's my first "gold foil":

cementing the stock pot
http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=10231 

I believe specific posts can be linked to, but why not read through entire topics? I always find more than a quick simple answer as I read through a topic.

Doug


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## lysdexic (May 5, 2014)

Back to cleaning up my mess:

I had over a gallon of CuCl etching solution that was left over from my semi botched attempt at leaching gold plated pins and gold plated circuit boards (there was some solder so it has SnCl in the solution as well). I ended up with a "dirty" CuCl solution from using HCl to remove components I couldn't remove mechanically from some cell boards (not sure what I did to create CuCl but I did and like an idiot I combined that CuCl + "mystery base metals" with leftover CuCl leach solution). I know in the process(es) I dissolved gold (I saw it and into solution is the only place it could have gone). I had a negative for gold with a stannus test (later on I got a faint purple... maybe I screwed up the test I don't know for certain). So that is the origin of my gallon + of CuCl solution.

I took a length of heavy walled 1 1/4" copper pipe and cut up the length with a cut off wheel, cut it into 6" pieces, flattened them into sheets and hung them in my CuCl solution. A little more than 24hrs later the copper was covered with grayish white powder (I figured it was Cu1Cl, researching suggested that was most likely correct) I poured off the liquid until I saw the gray starting to reach the stream and then filtered the remainder of the liquid. I rinsed all of the powder into another container and added some HCl. As expected it turned a light green (darker today). There is some black sediment and still a little gray, but my bubbler is busy and I have some "clean" CuCl leach I want to test and drop any values and combine them (if any) so I can process it all at once.

I'm going to set my contaminated leach aside and save it for removing copper from depopulated boards in the future. I kind of got distracted when I saw my daughters abandoned "potato launcher" (not allowed to call it a cannon at school) she made back in high school for a project. So I stole the 4" pvc necked down to 2" section, cut the 4" section to about 4" long and the 2" section to just long enough for a 2" - 1 1/2" reducer that had been under my feet (literally) and cut a short length of 1 1/2" pvc to finish off the buchner funnel body. I deburred all the pieces now just have to make the strainer. I have some cone type coffee filters that are far better quality than basket type coffee, they have exactly the right area away from the seams to make 4" circular filters and I have an old food saver vacuum sealer that is going to have it's vacuum pump re-purposed. I just need to test a 5g pail to see if it can handle the vacuum. If it works it would make live easier.


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## Pantherlikher (May 5, 2014)

Sounds like you have a plan...Great.
Try to let as much sediment settle as you can and pour off as much liquid as possible. Then rinse the sediment lots of times with water. Then process the sediment. Filtering is a pain and is not needed for the most part. Filter all liquid off the sediment and all liquids from this point just because...

B.S.


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## lysdexic (May 6, 2014)

Pantherlikher,

Thank you. I did let everything settle for at least 48 hrs, it will be sitting for at least a week before I touch it again. It's a real bear trying to pour liquid off really fine powders, no matter how careful I try to be I always stir the powder up as I near the bottom. I've read a bit about this problem... going to research it more and probably come up with some sort of siphoning system to remove the bulk of larger volume solutions in the future. The whole letting things settle, decant or siphon instead of filtering didn't sink in until I actually tried this. It's not difficult to imagine having half of whatever values were present trapped in a pile of dirty filter paper with whatever other sediment was present and the other half sitting in rinse water from washing it off the filter paper. Right back to where I started with only half the material waiting to settle again. 



Pantherlikher said:


> Filter all liquid off the sediment and all liquids from this point just because...
> 
> B.S.



Because I've reached the point where any values would be in in the concentrate remaining and care must be taken not to lose any?

I still have the cleaner CuCl solution to saturate with copper and collect any values I may have lost there as well. I'll proceed when I've added whatever comes from that batch to the first batch and it has all settled. Where I used HCl to remove the Cu1Cl should I just use water washes before processing? Should I use hot water to remove any lead chloride that could be there? and Harold's wash process using water NaOH water is used for the brown gold powder that is precipitated as the end product of processing? (I'll have to read it again before using it). 

My funnel project and I have an idea about making a diaphragm air/vacuum pump are great distractions for (literally) letting things settle. I also made an extended nozzle for my pump spray bottle. It's a pain trying to spray the bottom of a container and I have about 2 doz spray heads and bottles so I tore 2 apart and made an extended nozzle spray bottle. Needs some tweaking but it does work. I'm sure they sell things like that but free and making it myself is cheap and fun. 

Thanks again,

Doug


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## goldsilverpro (May 6, 2014)

Pouring off (decanting) doesn't work well on light powders which are easily stirred up. I never decanted unless the material was heavy. Siphoning works better on most things. You can't remove all the liquid but you can get close on most everything that has settled, whether light or heavy. Before I let it settle, I stirred the solution, put the container on a bench about 3' high, and then tilt the container towards me and put a block on wood under the back of the container, in order to let it settle while tilted. That way, everything settles in a pile at the front. This makes siphoning easier and more efficient. 

For siphoning, I used a 5/16" ID clear plastic tubing for 5 gallon buckets and about 3/16" ID tubing for 4 liter beakers. The undesirable curl (from being wrapped around a reel at the store) makes siphoning difficult, but the curl can be permanently removed from the tubing by soaking it in a pot of hot water on the stove for a few minutes, until the tubing becomes cloudy, and then quickly hanging it up for an hour or so with a weight attached to the bottom.


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## lysdexic (May 7, 2014)

Wow, thank you Goldsilverpro. I would have never thought of tilting the container and letting the sediment settle in one place instead of evenly across the entire bottom, or taking the curl in the hose out like that. I know you've done it enough times for me to go with your tubing sizes too. Did you run the tubing straight down the side? About how close to the material did you place the tubing? I hope you don't mind me asking. You already saved me who knows how many attempts at getting it right, if I can increase my odds of success at first attempt why not try? Thank you again.

Doug


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2014)

A little more on taking the curl out of the tubing. Before coiling it in the pot of hot water, I tie a piece of string tightly to each end of the tubing, leaving a small loop for hanging. I hang the top loop on a nail and on the bottom loop, I hang something heavy, like a claw hammer, to stretch it straight. After it has completely cooled, I cut a short piece off of each end to eliminate the kinks where the strings were attached.

I usually paint about 1" of one tubing end with a red magic marker (this has to be renewed every so often) and let it dry well before using. That way I can see how deep it is in the solution. This works well as a depth guide, especially with dark solutions, and it also helps prevent pulling the hose out too far and losing the siphon. I place the tip of the tubing, at about a 45 degree angle, against the inside front of the container and constantly slide it down as the volume goes down. I do it so the red tip is always in view. I do the entire siphoning holding the tubing in my right hand (I'm right handed) 3 or 4 inches from the tip. As the solution level gets near the solids, I gently tilt the container towards me a little more with my left hand. When I see the solids start being drawn to the tip of the tubing, I pull it out. I always clamp one of those cheap ($7 at Walmart) aluminum work lights a couple of feet above the container so I can better see what is happening inside.

With 5/16" tubing, it takes about 5 minutes, or a little less, to drain a 5 gal. bucket. You might try 3/8" to go a little faster but, if the tubing is too large, it can create turbulence and this can stir up the solids. Holding the tubing for 5 minutes can get very tiring. To alleviate this and to make my hand steadier, I rest my right wrist on the edge of the bucket. Right before I start siphoning, I rinse (squirt bottle) and then wipe dry the top bucket edge to remove any chemicals that might eat into my wrist.

I've done this so much that I usually do it without gloves, to maintain a better feel, without getting anything on my hands. I do, however, strongly suggest that you use gloves. Preferably thin surgeon type gloves. Heavy gloves tend to make it more awkward.


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## butcher (May 7, 2014)

I will use siphoning, or a chemical resistant chemical pump on larger volumes of solution, like during waste treatment, speaking of waste treatment using the cloth wicking method for sludge is another great tip I learned from GSP.

For decanting solutions I use these tools, the suction bulb pictured is very chemical resistant, I use it on most all of the acid solutions, you can move quite a bit of liquid in a fairly short time with it, cutting the bulb off of one of the pipettes, the pipettes stem tube will fit onto the suction bulb, this gives a longer reach down into vessels, and the smaller opening of the pipette tube creates less disturbance of the settled powders when getting close to them, with these tools you can get very close to the last drop of liquid without disturbing or picking up the powders, the pipette can be used alone, and also serves many useful purposes in the lab work we do, the suction bulb can also be used to start siphoning when using tubing to siphon solutions.

These tools have several uses, decanting solutions, transferring solutions from one vessel to another, removing a bug from solution, adding small amounts of acids to a solution, dripping a drop of reagent into a spot plate...

I have several of these, I will have some of these tools that are dedicated for certain jobs, the old ones go to use in treating dirty solutions, new clean ones will be dedicated to certain procedures like working with clean gold solutions, although they can be washed, to keep from contaminating one solution with another it is a good practice to dedicate these tools to certain jobs, especially were a salt of one solution may contaminate a clean solution.

Note: the suction bulb is not the turkey baster you will find in grocery stores, the turkey basters bulbs are not very chemical resistant, the opening in the end of them is too large and allows dripping of liquids, these suction bulbs I use do not pose these problems.


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## rewalston (May 7, 2014)

where do you get the suction tubes?


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## Geo (May 7, 2014)

I can get the pipettes in a 500 count for thirty dollars US. Ebay is a good place to get a few in a pinch.


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## rewalston (May 7, 2014)

Geo said:


> I can get the pipettes in a 500 count for thirty dollars US. Ebay is a good place to get a few in a pinch.


what about the suction bulb?


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## goldsilverpro (May 7, 2014)

I have used all sorts of rubber bulb pipets for tiny quantities but most of my stuff was in buckets and 55 gallon drums and I found siphoning was much faster and gave better control. I also siphoned most of the solutions in 1 liter, or larger, beakers, tilted, of course, with small tubing 3/16" or less.

Another trick, when removing liquids from settled solids in open top plastic drums when they are sitting on the floor (tilted with a 12" piece of 4X4 wood). I usually just hung a siphon hose (about 3/4" - 1" ID) a little more than halfway down into the solution and let it siphon into another drum until it stopped siphoning (when the solution levels in the two drums are equal). I then dipped out the rest with a scoop made from a 1 gallon round plastic jug. In use, i grabbed the handle with all 4 fingers and squeezed a bit with my thumb on the top of the reinforcing ring. The round jugs work much better than a square milk jug. I held the scoop horizontally flat and slowly pressed it straight down while slightly tilting it, to fill it. I then tilted it up slowly while removing it. With practice, the solids won't be disturbed until you get very close to them and you can drain half a drum in about 15 minutes. See the scoop photo below.

Much of my siphoning was done to make filtering go faster. This was usually when the values were in the solution and the solids were dirt, etc. I let the solids settle and then siphoned off the solution, leaving the dirt in the bucket. I then filtered the relatively clear siphoned solution. This usually goes fast if the solids had been fairly well settled. After all the solution ran through the filter, I then filtered the solids in the same filter paper. This can be as much as 10X faster than trying to filter a whole bucket full of solution with unsettled solids.

Speaking of filtering, except for a few certain things, I prefer gravity filtering to vacuum filtering. In my refinery, I usually had at least 10-15 clean buckets set up for filtering. On top of each, I used fairly large plastic funnels sitting on a piece of plywood with a hole cut in it large enough so that the funnel sat in it about halfway. If the holes are cut accurately, this makes it quite stable and also makes it easy to switch the plywood and funnel to another bucket when necessary without losing any drips. When filtering most things, the solution won't start coming through perfectly clear until the filter paper slightly clogs. At first, I lift up the plywood often and look and the tip of the funnel to check the clarity of what is coming out. When I see it's dripping clear, I switch the plywood and funnel to a clean bucket and re-filter whatever is in the 1st bucket.

This final hint probably sounds stupid but it really works for not losing drips when transferring the filter to another bucket, if you move fast enough. When the filter has slowed to a drip, and the solution is about halfway down, and I want to switch it to another bucket, I pick up the plywood and bob it up and down slightly. Then, immediately after a drip, I bob it up and, at the same time, I move it to another bucket. For some reason, this slows the next drip. Believe it or not.

Here's a typical scoop I made for dipping. It was made from one of those round gallon jugs that you fill with that nasty stuff that you drink before a colonoscopy. Most of the other 100, or so, I have made were from heavy duty round plastic lab jugs. I sketched it out with a marker and then cut it with my pocket knife. Took about 10 minutes, total. Also, it shows how I hold it. Of course, I use gloves when dipping chemicals.


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## Geo (May 7, 2014)

I buy a store brand turkey baster and cut the bulb off of a pipette. I pull the bulb off the turkey baster and drop the pipette,small end first,down through the baster so the small end of the pipette sticks out the small end of the baster. Take hold of the pipette and pull it through leaving just the flared end of the pipette inside the baster.Replace the baster bulb.I put a small zip-tie around the bulb where it connects for an airtight seal.This is for very delicate liquid extraction. I use a different baster with no pipette for moving liquids in a hurry. Like Chris said, in large volumes, it would be best to siphon.


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## butcher (May 7, 2014)

I get the suction bulbs from a local pharmacy.

I made a quick Google search of suction bulb images, and found the proper name bulb suction syringe. Here is one place that sells them, you may find them other places also, I just find this tool so handy I had to say something, I also pay very close attention to tricks shared by GSP and others, sometimes the small tricks or tips can make a big difference in making things easier.

http://www.keyhostnet.com/safetynett5/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=92


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## lysdexic (May 9, 2014)

Thank you all very much I wrote a reply yesterday (somewhat lengthy) and my computer froze. I was so tired I was pretty "dungy". In short... I will keep all of what was said in my tool box and I'm extremely grateful to gain the wisdom of much experience first hand for FREE! I ran into a topic I had been trying to find again for a long time today (I wasn't smart enough to bookmark it):

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=325&hilit=getting+gold+pure+shining

There's more than 2 lifetimes of experience just on the first page! In no way do I mean disrespect for anyone when I say there are two people (I am aware of that were very successful professional refiners) here that I pay close attention to when it comes to the actual refining GSP and Harold. I've read where Harold said a number of times how he hasn't had much experience with the escrap refining that dominates the forum. But in my opinion that is only true concerning the initial stage of recovery and not so true once dealing with the "rough" concentrates produced from that initial recovery.

I will probably never even recover what those two did in a single run... The process is the same as it has always been, reinventing the wheel as I've heard said is futile. Adapting the wheel to a specific purpose on the other hand is common sense, meaning tweaking what Hoke taught so that it works best in each situation. When I deal with larger volumes I'll have GSP's tips tricks and hints (the funnel hint isn't stupid... I've used that with pasta for many years). My solutions holding values and my 1/2 pint jar(s) with precipitated gols (and other PMs) butcher's (and Geo's) pipette and bulb syringe will be better suited for the task.

Not used to working 4 10hr night shifts so again I'm pretty much stupid tired right now, but I wanted to say thank you... so Thank you again.

Doug


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## jason_recliner (May 9, 2014)

I've found that using a 60ml syringe with a catheter tip is just perfect. You can go as slowly as you like. Something like this, I just happened to have hanging around.


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## solar_plasma (May 10, 2014)

gsp:


> This final hint probably sounds stupid but it really works for not losing drips when transferring the filter to another bucket, if you move fast enough. When the filter has slowed to a drip, and the solution is about halfway down, and I want to switch it to another bucket, I pick up the plywood and bob it up and down slightly. Then, immediately after a drip, I bob it up and, at the same time, I move it to another bucket. For some reason, this slows the next drip. Believe it or not.



If I understand you right, this is the same way I do and the explanation is, I think, you basicly use a virtual zero gravity like in the trajectory for zero gravity maneuver of a NASA training flight.


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## Geo (May 10, 2014)

There's definitely a mechanical reason for it. Perhaps the movement up creates a vacuum or an area of low pressure just under the filter holding the next drop suspended or at least held against the bottom. Perhaps the upward motion suspends the liquid inside the filter and the downward movement creates a vacuum inside the filter, stopping the liquid from passing through. Maybe its a little of each creating that two tenths of a second delay in the next drip.


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## solar_plasma (May 10, 2014)

Maybe one of our physicists likes to join in: zero gravity maneuver or vacuum or both?


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## lysdexic (May 11, 2014)

The math is beyond me but my limited understanding of the concept suggests it's not a "zero g" situation. Accelerating an object straight up (perpendicular to the earth's surface) or "up" in general generates a >1G force. On the downward "stroke" the object would experience a <1G force. If "0G" were achieved on the downward motion the funnel, filter and contents would be in free fall and the switch to upward motion (>1G) would probably be messy. It always seemed counter intuitive to me (as with moving a colander of dripping pasta), but it does work... I'm kind of curious as well. If you're good with the math, here's one of many places that discusses how free fall is achieved with parabolic flight:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598414/


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## jason_recliner (May 11, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> For siphoning, I used a 5/16" ID clear plastic tubing for 5 gallon buckets and about 3/16" ID tubing for 4 liter beakers. The undesirable curl (from being wrapped around a reel at the store) makes siphoning difficult, but the curl can be permanently removed from the tubing by soaking it in a pot of hot water on the stove for a few minutes, until the tubing becomes cloudy, and then quickly hanging it up for an hour or so with a weight attached to the bottom.


A little trick I used to use in winemaking, is to insert a wooden skewer into the low end of the tubing to stiffen it. Leave the pointy end hanging out about 1/2", or whatever is applicable to you. This helps keep the tube off the bottom, and easy to remove the skewer. If you have something plastic, it might be better than wood here.


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## lazersteve (May 19, 2014)

Geo said:


> I lost over a half ounce of gold due to steam explosions while force drying gold powder. I set up my hotplate on my work table and set up a visionware casserole to dry powder and placed the wet powder in it and turn on the heat and left. I obviously set the heat too high because when I got back there were craters in the now dry powder and wet powder all over the place. I remember finding some on an old satellite dish about fifteen feet from the table. At least it was my gold but it was a horrible mistake for me and about made me sick.




Always increase heat gently over time. It may not be the fastest way, but it is the safest. Steam explosions are extremely dangerous and costly to boot.

Breaking up the surface of the material to allow the trapped moisture to escape is also a good idea when heating powders that contain a lot of moisture. Never pack wet material into a container then heat rapidly, you are basically forming a mini cannon of sorts. If the pressure of the expanding steam has somewhere to go, chances are it will not launch the powder into space.

Steve


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## g_axelsson (Jul 22, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Maybe one of our physicists likes to join in: zero gravity maneuver or vacuum or both?


The speed needed to create a vacuum behind the funnel is so high so the last drip would be the least of your problems. I think we can disregard of any vacuum effects.

Let's study the forces acting on the last drop. Something is holding it back or it would drip down immediately. That force is surface tension, it holds the drop at the end of the funnel.
When the gravitational pull becomes stronger than the surface tension a drop starts to fall. Immediately after it has fallen the amount of liquid left isn't enough to form another drop from gravity alone.
If you try to bob the filter up and down the filter will see more or less acceleration or gravitational pull (it's impossible to determine if you are accelerating in space or sitting still in a gravitational field, gravitation and acceleration is the same thing physically).
When increasing speed downwards the force is lower than 1g, when decreasing speed downwards the force is higher than 1g. When increasing speed upwards the force is higher than 1g, when decreasing speed upwards the force is lower than 1g.
In other words, the drop sees a higher force during the lower part of the up-down bobbing and a lower force at the upper part. If you time it and makes a parabolic path between your buckets then the filter sees a low force during the upper part of the move, could even be zero g. A low force means no drops are forming.
The higher forces acting on the liquid at the bottom of the bobbing movement creates drops with less liquid than needed if it was only sitting still, so when a drop has formed during the bobbing it takes longer for the liquid to add enough mass for a drop to form when sitting still.

Okay, the reason no drop are formed during the top movement is that the filter effectively feels zero or low gravitational pull during the move. the reason it takes longer for next drop to form after the move is that it needs to fill up the extra fluid needed to create a drop at 1g only.

I hope I was clear with my explanation. :mrgreen: 

Göran, your local physicist.


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