# Stainless Steel Silver Cell



## kadriver

Today I am going to convert my silver cells from glass with graphite electrodes to a stainless steel bowl (6 inches deep and 8 inches across) with the entire bowl serving as the cathode.

I've got all the materials to make the cell and a nice 30 volt, 10 amp power supply to run it.

I am going to take some photos of the cell as I build it and post them later today.

Palladium claims that his "runs like a Ferrari" and that I will "throw rocks at the graphite cathodes" once I get the stainless bowl setup running - hope its true!

kadriver


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## element47.5

Looking forward to your usual excellent pix reports! 

Are you planning to power the cell with the full 30 volts? Heat concerns? I guess we'll find out!


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## philddreamer

Element, he'll be using one of these; http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-10A-10AMP-3010D-Pro-Digital-DC-Power-Supply-Precision-Variable-Adjustable-/330804337453?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d05799b2d

he'll be able to control the volts and amps, thus controling heating. I just got mine a couple of days ago! Palladium has one, too!
I'll be using mine for recovering copper from Cu-Cl and for silver refining.
I have a question in relation to the S.S. bowl for the silver cell, magnetic or non-magnetic? 
Thanks!
Phil


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## element47.5

Excellent. Recall that kadriver has been using his PC power supplies so far and applying something like 3.3 VDC. Without current limiting, I would imagine (but do not know for sure) that 30 volts across a cell would draw a heck of a lot of current given the "fatness" of the current path through the cell. What the overall effect would be, I can't say with authority, but probably_not_so_good. Again, I am looking forward to kas' always neat pix!


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## Palladium

Non magnetic 300 series stainless.


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## philddreamer

Thanks, Ralph!


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## Palladium

Most of your restaurant equipment will be perfect. I have 5 gallon stainless pots and strainer spoons and you name it. Look for used restaurant supplies or walk trade day with a magnet.


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## kadriver

I'm not sure of the voltage - I think it was about 1.8 volts with the amps cranked up as far as it will go.

The bowl I have is nonmagnetic. It will take 3.5 liters to fill it to the proper level.

This will require 350 grams of pure silver (I'll probably use close to 400 grams in 3.5 liters of liquid).

I got it part way done today, then had to leave my shop.

I'll get it started tomorrow and post the pics.

kadriver


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## kadriver

Here is a shot of the bowl and its measurements.

I used an old cutting board and cut a hole in the top to allow a small tupperware container to fit into - this will be my filter basket.

Also drilled 1/8 inch holes and inserted bamboo skewers to align the basket dead center to keep it in place at all times.


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## kadriver

The bottom of the basket is 1.5 inches from the bottom of the cutting board.

The depth from the bottom of the basket to the bottom of the bowl is 4 inches.


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## jmdlcar

Is this the bowl you use?

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/3-qt-extra-heavyweight-stainless-steel-mixing-bowl-with-bottom-grip-non-slip-base/922MB03.html


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## kadriver

Next I poured off the used electrolyte from the old glass cells.







I re-used this electrolyte since it already had some copper in with the silver nitrate solution.

Goldsilverpro and Palladium both recommend adding some copper to improve crystal growth.

Palladium says that the copper makes the silver crystal easier to remove from the stainless bowl when harvesting the pure silver.

The used electrolyte needed to be filtered to get the dirt out - it was crystal clear after both filterings.




Plus I dissolved an additional 200 grams of pure silver in dilute nitric acid to bring the volume of electrolyte up to 3.5 liters (200 grams will give an excess of silver in the electrolyte).


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## kadriver

Next I transfered the filtered electrolyte into the stainless bowl.

I added distilled water to bring the electrolyte up to the proper level.

Then I transfered the anodes from the old glass cell filter baskets into the filter basket on the new stainless steel cell.

This basket was previously used in one of the glass cells, but still in good condition.


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## kadriver

I connected the powder supply, positive to the electrode in the anode basket, and negative to the rim of the stainless steel bowl.

I adjusted the voltage to 1.8 volts.

At this voltage, I could only get 0.6 amps to flow throught the cell.


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## kadriver

Close-up of the electrical connections


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## Lou

Perhaps consider making a bigger anode compartment?


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## kadriver

I bumped up the voltage to 2.8 volts with a corresponding increase to 1.1 amps current flow.

These numbers are the current operating parameters for now.

I am open to suggestions and critique as usual.


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## kadriver

I have a bigger basket, large enought to hold several 5 troy ounce bars.

I will try the larger basket next time around, thanks Lou.

Here is a shot of the inside of the cell after operating for an hour or so.

The basket is submerged in the electrolyte about 1/2 inch, I lifted the cutting board up to get the photo below.

Notice the silver crystal formation on the surface of the bowl.

This setup is much easier and less messy than the glass cells.

Plus, the disparity in parameters between the dual cell setup has vanished!

I can cut a larger hole in the other half of the cutting board and make larger anodes tomorrow.

Cheers!

kadriver


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## Palladium

How long has it been running at this point? Lou is correct from what i have learned to. Bigger anode surface.


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## kadriver

Palladium,

It had been running for about 3 hours at 1.8 volts and 0.6 amps when the photo was taken.

I adjusted it up to 2.8 volts 1.1 amps and it has been running like that for about two more hours now, time now 8:45 PM eastern.

I am going to the shop and check on it and get a new photo to see if the rate of crystal growth has increased since bumping up the voltage and current flow.

I am in love with this adjustable power supply.

What voltage would you recommend for this setup?

I can see where larger anodes are certainly needed to get the increased current flow that I am looking for.

Also, what kind of electrical shock hazard do I have here. I am going to get a rubber mat to place on the concrete floor to stand on when I am near the cell.

kadriver


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## Palladium

I run mine around 3.1 volts. No shock hazard that i know of. I run a higher concentration of silver in solution than i think you are. I wonder if that could be the key?


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## kadriver

jmdlcar said:


> Is this the bowl you use?
> 
> http://www.webstaurantstore.com/3-qt-extra-heavyweight-stainless-steel-mixing-bowl-with-bottom-grip-non-slip-base/922MB03.html



jmdlcar:

That looks like the exact same bowl I have, including the rubber coating on the bottom exterior.

I got mine at K-mart for about nine bucks.

kadriver


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## kadriver

OK, 3.1 volts - I can adjust mine up to that and the amps will increase as well.

The used electrolyte from the glass cells was concentrated at 120 grams pure silver in 1 liter of liquid.

Plus I added 200 grams more silver for a total of 440 grams - dissolved in 3.5 liters of liquid.

I usually run a higher than recommended (100g/l) concentration like you do.

What concentration do you run with?

Back in a flash with new photos ...

kadriver


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## jmdlcar

kadriver said:


> jmdlcar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the bowl you use?
> 
> http://www.webstaurantstore.com/3-qt-extra-heavyweight-stainless-steel-mixing-bowl-with-bottom-grip-non-slip-base/922MB03.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jmdlcar:
> 
> That looks like the exact same bowl I have, including the rubber coating on the bottom exterior.
> 
> I got mine at K-mart for about nine bucks.
> 
> kadriver
Click to expand...

Glad you can get local. I can get one in Marysville where I live for about the same price.

Jack


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## element47.5

I have one suggestion and boy is it easy. Stainless steel is not the best of conductors. The way you have the "bowl" connection with that alligator clip, you might only have 1-2-3 "teeth" hitting the lip of the stainless bowl. Change the angle of attack such that the clip comes in at a tangent angle and I would submit that you might well end up with a better connection, thus less resistance, thus better current flow. You can easily test the thesis by seeing if more current flows when you change to the tangent angle of attack. (I KNOW you know what angle of attack means!) 







And....if it were me, I would be positioning the power supply MUCH further away from the bowl. I appreciate you are trying to get the readouts in the pix.


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## Palladium

I'm running 300 grams/liter


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## rewalston

kadriver where did you get the power supply from? I think you posted it some place but I can't remember where.

Rusty


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## kadriver

Here it is

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-10A-10AMP-3010D-Pro-Digital-DC-Power-Supply-Precision-Variable-Adjustable-/330873545740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0999a40c


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## kadriver

Palladium said:


> I'm running 300 grams/liter



OK, I'll increase my electrolyte to that level - no wonder, mine is less than half that concentration.

What kind of amps to you get with 3.1 volts and 300g/l?


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## Palladium

At that voltage about 7.5 - 8.0. To peg it out i usually push 4 volts or just a little above.


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## kadriver

element47.5 said:


> I have one suggestion and boy is it easy. Stainless steel is not the best of conductors. The way you have the "bowl" connection with that alligator clip, you might only have 1-2-3 "teeth" hitting the lip of the stainless bowl. Change the angle of attack such that the clip comes in at a tangent angle and I would submit that you might well end up with a better connection, thus less resistance, thus better current flow. You can easily test the thesis by seeing if more current flows when you change to the tangent angle of attack. (I KNOW you know what angle of attack means!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And....if it were me, I would be positioning the power supply MUCH further away from the bowl. I appreciate you are trying to get the readouts in the pix.



There is definitly a correlation between quality of contact and current flow.

When I adjusted the volts, the amps went up as well, from 1.1A to 1.3Amps.

But then I moved the clips to try and get a better "bite" and the amps fell back to 1.1A and I could not get it to go up.

I think a drilled lug with threaded connections is the best for making good contact, and thus greater current flow.

For now I will adjust the clips as you suggested to get more contact until i can fit the side of the bowl with a stainless lug with threaded connection instead of clips.

The anodes are stacked in the basket and there is potential for poor connections there as well.

Yes, having that power supply so close to the cell made me nervous as well - notice the carboard barrier on the power supply.

When the experiment is complete and the cell is at optimal parameters, the power supply will be placed above and to the side of the cell to prevent damage from fumes and spashed electrolyte.

Good suggestions - keep them coming!

kadriver


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## kadriver

Here is the interior of the cell after about 5 hours of operation.

The silver looks good and I am pleased with this setup.

Once I get it tuned up, it will run like a farrari.

kadriver


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## Palladium

The thing about all that surface area you have to get use to is that it seems like it takes for ever to see any crystal growth to speak of. That's because it is spread out so far.


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## philddreamer

Kad, are you getting more crystals deposited on the clip side of the cathode, or is it even all around?
Phil


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## kadriver

Phildreamer,

The crystal growth is a little more dense on the side where the clip is attached.


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## philddreamer

Yeap! After more running, they'll be much denser at that point.
When I was setting my cell last year, GSP told me about the crystals been thicker towards the side where the connection was. I did expirience that. I ended placing another clip on the opposite side, and the crystals started concentrating on the other side, too! 
Thanks!
Phil


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## kadriver

The growth is much greater than that achieved with the graphite cathodes.

Even at 0.6 amps, it is about a 200% increase in current flow over the glass cells with the converted PC power supply.

1.1 amps is a 500% increase in flow.

It is all looking much better than the glass cells so far.

Thanks for all the help you guys!

I can't believe how much fun it is to do something new.

kadriver


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## kadriver

philddreamer said:


> Yeap! After more running, they'll be much denser at that point.
> When I was setting my cell last year, GSP told me about the crystals been thicker towards the side where the connection was. I did expirience that. I ended placing another clip on the opposite side, and the crystals started concentrating on the other side, too!
> Thanks!
> Phil



This is another good thing to know.

When i install the threaded connections on the bowl, I'll put two directly opposite each other.

This forum is absolutely the best thing on the internet.

I have met some really great people here.

Thanks Phil

kadriver


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## philddreamer

Your're welcome Kad, but GSP tought me that; I'm just sharing. 

One thing I'm kicking around is to place the connector on the bottom of the bowl some how... and also making some round anodes. I have some 1"x4"x4" graphite blocks.
Well, when I get to that. I'm remodeling my shed for now.
Thanks!
Phil


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## nickvc

I have been running a similar cell for about 2 months now except it's got an 11 litre capacity and I'm using a large plastic colander with a filter cloth in to put the bars onto and to catch the slimes. The solution contains around 100 grams + of silver with a little copper and I'm running sterling bars which are a challenge but with extra nitric additions going purely by the colour of the electrolyte I'm getting 20 kilos of good crystal, xrf shows 9999, or there abouts before I need to change it. The colander works really well and like Phil mentioned I see larger growth near the connection to the bowl so I'll try the double connection. I'm running at around 2 volts but it pulls around 15-20 amps but the cell has around 7 kilos of silver bars in there and my rectifier is a 10 volt 50 amp adjustable one, second hand naturally, and I'm harvesting around 7 kilos a week. The whole purpose for me was the other values, the slimes very aptly named, and the quality of the silver secondary but some of the crystal produced has been beautiful and I'm trying to keep it at 999 for pure aesthetic reasons at present, maybe I'll find an out for the product at a later stage. I did this many years ago while refining professionally, to prove I could, but never really pursued it properly so this is a first for me and I'm enjoying the new challenge.
The costs for the whole set up just over $525 plus acid,distilled water and electricity, the gold from the first batch of slimes have covered the set up costs and I'm hoping as I get to the end all the PGMs will show up as I'm just cementing them with the silver solutions at present to concentrate them and make for a worthwhile recovery, these will be mixed with all the silver and other values except gold from the stock pots and be run with the cemented silver from other projects, should be fun...


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## Drimacus

nickvc, may I ask what sort of anode filter paper you use in your stainless steel silver cell, and whether more than one layer is used?


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## kadriver

nickvc said:


> The whole purpose for me was the other values, the slimes very aptly named, and the quality of the silver secondary but some of the crystal produced has been beautiful and I'm trying to keep it at 999 for pure aesthetic reasons at present, maybe I'll find an out for the product at a later stage.



The silver is a by-product of what you are really after? Wow, now that is what I call refining.

Makes my puny output seem almost a waste compared to what you've got going Nick.

I was talking with another member who is experimenting with the idea of using sterling anode bars, like you are doing.

I will direct him to this writing, he should find it very interesting.

I tried using sterling/925 anode bars and I only remember the cell becoming fouled very quickly - but I did not keep working at it, just resolved to making anodes out of cemented silver with the purity of those bars up around 99%.

Here is a fact that I may have completely overlooked;

The silver in the electrolyte is depleted as the cell operates, the copper goes into solution as the silver gets plated out, with the dissolving anode bars replenishing the silver, but at a rate that can not keep up with the silver being depleted - is this statement true?

If it is, then I have completely missed the ball with respect to silver depletion in the cell. 

I thought the silver concentration stayed the same as the anode bars dissolved and replanted at the cathode, with the electrolyte acting as the "transfer media" only.

Now things are making a bit more sense to me - the nitric additions (to dissolve some more silver into the electrolyte), accounting for the increase of copper concentration as the cell operates.

I have been running a silver cell for at least a year now. It amazes me how some important information can just fly right over my head.

kadriver


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## philddreamer

Nickvc wrote:


> The colander works really well and like Phil mentioned I see larger growth near the connection to the bowl so I'll try the double connection.


I would like to point out, that GSP said that when splitting the connectors, the length and clips should be as identical as possible so the current flow is as even. If one wire is shorter than the other, more crystals will deposit at that point. 
Phil

Kad wrote:


> The silver is a by-product of what you are really after? Wow, now that is what I call refining.


I'm kinda doing the same but with copper, going after the copper and having the gold and PGM's as by product. I belive Palladium is doing the same.


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## kadriver

Converting the cell has opened a whole new set of learning curves for me.

Here is the cell interior after running all night.



I also increased the volts to 3.4V and the amps climbed to 1.3A and added some jumper wires to distribute the electrical contact around the bowl more evenly.
I tried to get a better "angle of attack" with the clips, but it kept slipping off the edge of the bowl, so I had to leave it connected as pictured.



I am dissolving another 200 grams of silver crystal to add to the cell to get the silver concentration higher.



kadriver


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## sena

Good work kadriver !, could you use some thing transparent (acrylic sheet) so that you could watch silver not lifting the plastic tray.

Thanks 
Sena


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## nickvc

Drimacus said:


> nickvc, may I ask what sort of anode filter paper you use in your stainless steel silver cell, and whether more than one layer is used?




I'm not using filter papers but a sheet of polypropylene filter material that my chemical supplier gets me, for free... I'd use the muslin that GSP suggests, if its good enough for him need I say more!


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## nickvc

Kevin I'm no chemist but the way I viewed it was that copper needs more nitric to hold it in solution than silver does so as the copper builds up the silver slowly depletes so I just add more nitric again just by gut instinct or fresh electrolyte and remove some of the old one. I'm sure there's a scientific way of doing this but as I said I'm no chemist :shock:


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## kadriver

Got it Nick. I'll be measuring the copper in solution using a spectrophotometer in the near future - take some of the guess work out of it.

I added some fresh electrolyte to the cell, 205 grams of pure silver dissolved in dilutre nitric acid.

After adding this dose of fresh silver nitrate, the amps climbed to 1.8 amps (plus i adjusted the volts up to 3.6v DC).

kadriver


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## Palladium

Here's the guy i get all my stainless from. He has some good deals from time to time.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/513fitworks/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2654


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## mikeinkaty

Palladium -

Is there an advantage to using a round bottom bowl instead of a flat bottom SS bucket? I have a 1 gallon bucket bought from WalMart for $11. I was thinking of grinding a SS spatula to the same diameter as the bucket to facilitate cleanout. But, I, and my granddaughters, still like to watch the crystals grow so I may keep using my glass containers for a while yet.

Also, with my open top glass container I have been losing H2o from the solution by evaporation. It just dawned on me that that probably was tending to keep the Ag concentration more constant. I have just been adding water to keep the tank full. In the future I think I will keep AgNo3 solution at hand and just add more of that to keep the cell at the same level. Am I correct in thinking that one whould have to process about 800 ozs of 990 silver before the copper concentration reached the cutoff of about 9 oz/gal? 

Mike


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## mikeinkaty

nickvc said:


> Drimacus said:
> 
> 
> 
> nickvc, may I ask what sort of anode filter paper you use in your stainless steel silver cell, and whether more than one layer is used?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not using filter papers but a sheet of polypropylene filter material that my chemical supplier gets me, for free... I'd use the muslin that GSP suggests, if its good enough for him need I say more!
Click to expand...


I must have bought to coarse of muslin cause I was getting leakage of slime through the pores. I switched to coffee filters and get no leakage at all now. I wrap the bar with the filter and secure it with a short zip tie. On one 8 ozt bar I used 2 filters and that worked fine too.

Mike


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## Palladium

Are you sure it's REAL stainless and non magnetic?


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## mikeinkaty

Palladium said:


> Are you sure it's REAL stainless and non magnetic?



It is slightly magnetic to my large magnet that I robbed from a old disk drive. That magnet is so strong that I can hardly pull it off from a cast iron block. The cathode in my cell has the same characteristic and the electrolyte has not fazed it one bit.

Edit - no, the bucket is not magnetic. The serving tray that I got at Goodwill that was used for the cathodes in both my cells is slightly magntic.

Mike


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## kadriver

sena said:


> Good work kadriver !, could you use some thing transparent (acrylic sheet) so that you could watch silver not lifting the plastic tray.
> 
> Thanks
> Sena



I am looking for a larger anode basket and a see-thru cover as you suggested.

Plexiglass might work, put it may become cloudy over time from the exposure to cell operation.

kadriver


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## Smack

Poly Carbonate is more durable and also more expensive. Any glass shop would have it or could order it.


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## mikeinkaty

kadriver said:


> sena said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good work kadriver !, could you use some thing transparent (acrylic sheet) so that you could watch silver not lifting the plastic tray.
> 
> Thanks
> Sena
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am looking for a larger anode basket and a see-thru cover as you suggested.
> 
> Plexiglass might work, put it may become cloudy over time from the exposure to cell operation.
> 
> kadriver
Click to expand...


It just occurred to me that if you use a cover larger than the opening then you could move the position of the anode if crystals started getting to close to it. I have not been using a cover but may start to reduce evaporation. I have been moving the anode around as needed and adjusting the current to keep it constant if moving the anode makes it change. If alligator clips around the rim of the cell interfere with the cover then you could always drill holes just under the rim and put in SS screws to connect to. Thin neoprene washers could be used under the head of the screw to make them water tight. Neoprene is highly chemical resistant.
Mike


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## kadriver

Neoprene - I'll make sure and use them when I install the stainless threaded lugs after I shut the cell down.

I am going to eliminate the clips completely (except the clip on the top that goes to the anodes in the basket).

Someone had a good idea to install the cathode connection on the bottom of the bowl, I may experiment with this idea.

Kadriver


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## Smack

You could take your bowl to a welding shop and have them Tig a sst bolt to the bottom, then sit the bowl over a hole with the bolt facing down through the hole then make your connection.


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## mikeinkaty

kadriver said:


> Neoprene - I'll make sure and use them when I install the stainless threaded lugs after I shut the cell down.
> 
> I am going to eliminate the clips completely (except the clip on the top that goes to the anodes in the basket).
> 
> Someone had a good idea to install the cathode connection on the bottom of the bowl, I may experiment with this idea.
> 
> Kadriver


 I would just set the SS pan on a metal plate and run a wire to the plate. Have to remember to clean it occasionally. But, would horizontal vs vertical make a difference? I've wondered why some people refer to some of these cells as 'horizontal cells'. I've also wondered if lining the top inside of a SS container with saran wrap (or something similar) would keep crystals from growing at the very top of the solution. Would that be a bad thing to have crystals growing at the top??

Mike


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## amesametrita

the worst cell design i've ever seen


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## Palladium

Really? would you mind explaining because i have produced hundreds if not thousand of oz with just that design.
I think this is not the first time you have told someone they are wrong.


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## its-all-a-lie

amesametrita said:


> the worst cell design i've ever seen




I am having problems finding photos of your cell for comparison......


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## g_axelsson

amesametrita said:


> the worst cell design i've ever seen


You haven't seen my first cell then. :lol: 

Göran


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## Drimacus

An electrolyte concentration of 300 grams silver per liter for a stainless steel cell is mentioned earlier in this thread. This is well beyond the 30-150 grams generally quoted in the literature. This will reduce the internal resistance of the cell, but are there any other benefits or problems resulting from the high concentration? Just curious.


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## goldsilverpro

amesametrita said:


> the worst cell design i've ever seen


From your past posts, it is obvious you are quite anal about what you consider to be the perfect cell. I must admit I found your posts on the subject quite interesting - I even printed them out and I rarely do that. Technically, you are most probably right but, practically, for a hobbyist running a very small cell, one goes with what works. It's the old, "the proof is in the pudding" thing. Palladium has had great success using a stainless bowl as the cathode, so why knock it just because it doesn't meet with your severe standards? It works, doesn't it?

On the forum, the use of a stainless cell first came from Harold. Had you insulted him as you did Palladium, you would likely already be banned. I also have seen references to the use of large stainless cells in industry. 

If you really want to be helpful, you could provide details on exactly how you would set up and run a very small 1 to 3 liter cell. They present problems that aren't found in larger cells. I warned you before that, if you thought someone was wrong, you should explain why. Your bedside manner sucks.


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## amesametrita

Harold's cell is the proper one.
Nothing to argue.


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## Anonymous

kadriver said:


> Today I am going to convert my silver cells from glass with graphite electrodes to a stainless steel bowl (6 inches deep and 8 inches across) with the entire bowl serving as the cathode.
> 
> I've got all the materials to make the cell and a nice 30 volt, 10 amp power supply to run it.
> 
> I am going to take some photos of the cell as I build it and post them later today.
> 
> Palladium claims that his "runs like a Ferrari" and that I will "throw rocks at the graphite cathodes" once I get the stainless bowl setup running - hope its true!
> 
> kadriver


hahaha cool looking forward to see it all ways looking to lurn somthing as im heading down the road of growing a gold mine lol but silver is also great love to know more thnks for all the help


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## Anonymous

how much di your power suply cost you i need to get me one and where did you get it thanks


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## jmdlcar

rickwood said:


> how much di your power suply cost you i need to get me one and where did you get it thanks


Here is the link where.


kadriver said:


> Here it is
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-10A-10AMP-3010D-Pro-Digital-DC-Power-Supply-Precision-Variable-Adjustable-/330873545740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0999a40c


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## Palladium

Yeah i'm not even going to argue with you about how wrong your thinking really is. The one thing i do know is i produce some of the highest grade materials you will find and this is proven by scientific means of assay and icp. All this i do in a little redneck laboratory, without a chemistry education, with inferior equipment, and a staff of 3 cats. Maybe it's the cats that do it when i'm not looking, who knows. The one thing i do know is it works regardless of what you, mickey mouse, or some book says.


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## Anonymous

*Palladium*, I wanted to say something earlier, but after reading more of this, I will.

Your method works and although someone thinks the setup isn't pretty or scientific to their mindset, your method works. I'm going to make one one day too. Any, and (or) everything can be improved, if there is an improvement to it. But for what you're been doing and what you've accomplished, I say you did an excellent job in demonstrating your silver cell.

*Palladium*, ask the doubter(s) if they would like to have your refined silver for *free*, or even half priced. You and everyone else knows what that answer *WILL* be.

Shucks, I made my own vacuum pump/siphon out of a squeeze ketchup bottle and some 3/8" in tubing and it siphons well for me, for the time being. It's nothing fancy, and it cost me only the cost of the empty ketchup bottle. The tubing I got for free, but it can be gotten for less than the cost of the ketchup.

I like the design you made and I will someday make one myself. You also told me just recently about using stainless (300 series) for my nitric acid (I never knew it), but your information is sound and founded to be amongst the most credible members here on this forum.

Keep up the great work. You have earned it too, respectfully and by proven methods. Nothing can out-top that. Nothing.

Kevin


----------



## Palladium

His arguments remind me of academic teaching in the universities. No No No says the professor! It will never work! Didn't you see the book said so. Your wrong because......... Reckon how much talent has been squashed by people who think their way of academics is the only way their is. How much talent has been suppressed because of the fact that if the main stream academic community doesn't agree then it holds no viability. Science is all about learning and pushing that frontier to its edge to see what's there. Without that free spirited sense of exploration then we might as well say if it ain't in the book then it's not possible. I like the guy and i like the information he posted when correct, but the one thing i can't tolerate is when you suppress or hinder the spirit of education or experimentation. If it works, it works. Period!


----------



## nickvc

I have already said what I think of your cell several times and my view hasn't changed, it's easy to make, cheap, easy to find the items to construct and it works. Perfect it might not be but to most of us that doesn't matter, it does what it says on the box and produces good results for little money or effort.


----------



## rewalston

One of these days (ahem) I plan on building a "Bowl Cell", I have the bowl and everything else I need except the important things......nitric and silver :lol: But I have everything else.

Rusty


----------



## amesametrita

Now I see how some people believe in a snake oil.


----------



## its-all-a-lie

amesametrita said:


> Now I see how some people believe in a snake oil.
> Electroplating cell Palladium has built is not electrorefining one.
> If you want to follow this fault design, than follow.
> I just recommend to copy Harold's one




The cell design works, i use the same setup and consistantly achieve .9995+ results. It does not have to be pretty, it does not have to be designed by a team of scientists, it does not have to cost thousands/millions of dollars, it does not have to be bought from a store, it simply has to work, and work simply it does. You do not have to use this same setup, there are many to choose from, you dont have to like this setup, but in my opinion you should respect the choice of the members here who have chosen to replicate and use this system. Each man/woman here uses the system that works for them, we are not here to impress anyone other than ourselves.


----------



## amesametrita

And let me be clear.
I've never said that this setup doesn't work.
I said "the worst cell design I've ever seen".


----------



## its-all-a-lie

amesametrita said:


> And let me be clear.
> I've never said that this setup doesn't work.
> I said "the worst cell design I've ever seen".
> 
> Take a nail instead of cathode.
> Forget anode bag.
> Use pure silver for the anode.
> It will work.
> 
> At electrolyte concentration 300g/l forget one day to put silver as anode.
> Put some graphite instead.
> It will work again, even without anodic silver.
> 
> You can take a hammer and dig up the garden.
> But it is better to do it by a shovel.




Solution: Dont look at it.


----------



## Palladium

amesametrita said:


> And let me be clear.
> I've never said that this setup doesn't work.
> I said "the worst cell design I've ever seen".



I guess using that same logic and the laws of thermodynamics the same could be said about the internal combustion engine, but yet how many millions of them operate daily?

Regardless let it be. This was Kadriver's thread about learning something and we done trashed it up. Back to learning.


----------



## amesametrita

Palladium said:


> I guess using that same logic and the laws of thermodynamics the same could be said about the internal combustion engine...



Don't generalize.
Some engine designs are good, some are bad.
You can't compare Russian Lada to German BMW.


----------



## Palladium

Their is no generalizing. According to thermodynamics all engine designs are bad. Automobile engines are only about 25% efficient at energy conversion. Hummm... sort of the way my cell design might not be efficient but still seems to work considering it's a bad design.


----------



## cnbarr

Oh, I feel the cat's claws coming out! :mrgreen:


----------



## amesametrita

Palladium said:


> Their is no generalizing. According to thermodynamics all engine designs are bad. Automobile engines are only about 25% efficient at energy conversion. Hummm... sort of the way my cell design might not be efficient but still seems to work considering it's a bad design.



Who said that they are ALL bad?
Just your generalization.
If nobody can push up efficiency doesn't mean they are all bad.
They do what can be achieved by present technology.

I don't say ALL silver cells are bad.
I just said that your particular design is the worst I've ever seen.


----------



## goldsilverpro

amesametrita,

I repeat myself. Will you explain how you would set up a small (say, 1 to 3 liter) cell. That's about the size that most of these guys would use.


----------



## amesametrita

==By the way it's more professionally to measure cells by cathode area instead of litres.==


----------



## metatp

amesametrita said:


> And let me be clear.
> I've never said that this setup doesn't work.
> I said "the worst cell design I've ever seen".
> 
> Take a nail instead of cathode.
> Forget anode bag.
> Use pure silver for the anode.
> It will work.
> 
> At electrolyte concentration 300g/l forget one day to put silver as anode.
> Put some graphite instead.
> It will work again, even without anodic silver.
> 
> You can take a hammer and dig up the garden.
> But it is better to do it by a shovel.


I finally understand where amesametrita is coming from. He has a different definition of what a good design is. My definition is one that works for the purpose it was intented for. It needs to be easy to use, easy to construct with readily available and inexpensive items (readily available and inexpensive for me as I define it). There is also a hazard risk that would be part of the equation as well.

It appears that his design is relatively inadequate for me (but I really haven't seen his perfect design), because it does not meet my definition for a good design. 

To each his own, I just like the product it produces either way.

Regards,
Tom


----------



## kadriver

Wow - this thread has really grown.

The cell is working perfectly and the crystals are about 1/2 inch (in some places) all around the inside of the bowl.

I am really pleased with this new design. I can see where the clean out will be a snap.

The crystals in the glass cells look different, but the speed has really increased.

I followed your directions as best I could Palladium, and I am getting similar results, thank you for the direction you have given.

But I have one question; what do you use to scrape the crystal off the bowl to harvest the silver?

I am thinking a flexible poly plastic spatula.

I am having a blast learning new stuff.

Pictures of the crystal to follow.

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

You can use a flexible spatula if you want but until the copper starts to build the crystal are hard to dislodge with something flexible. I use a stainless steel spoon with strainer holes in the bottom, a serving spoon i guess it's called. That way you can just dip the crystals out without removing the solution and get right back to running. You will probably say what about scratches from the spoon? It doesn't matter. The crystals that might adhere to the surface because of scratches can just be left for the crystals to build on next time. If it really needs to be completely cleaned out you can just use nitric to remove the rough stuff in the scratches.


----------



## element47.5

So, with 1/2" +/- of Ag crystals on the bowl, has the voltage or current changed? Or, have you just settled on a volts/amp combo that seems like it's working OK? 

I will be interested in hearing how much effort it is to harvest the crystals.


----------



## kadriver

Here is a shot of the crystal growth in the cell.




The growth around the rim of the bowl seems to be greater than that in the bottom of the bowl (because the cathode connections are around the rim).

I had the voltage set at 3.4 to 3.6 volts for a few hours with the amps up to around 2.0, but then I brought it back down to 3.1 volts DC and the amps settled in at 1.4 to 1.6 amps.

I have been running it for the past 4 days at 3.1 volts and 1.5 amps.




It looks like a bowl full of diamonds under sea water.




I have learned more things about operating the silver cell and I would recommend running this configuration to anyone.

kadriver


----------



## kadriver

Palladium, 

I used a bamboo skewer to scrap a small patch away from the bowl just to see how the crystals would come off.

The place I scraped was completely bare of crystals and they just slid down into the bottom of the bowl.

The bowl I used had a very smooth surface, almost polished looking.

I may just use the bamboo to scrape the crystals, unless they adhere more tightly after they get bigger.

I've got another group of 2 troy ounce anode bars to run through the cell, 15 each.

I am loving the new design.

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

I love seeing light reflect off the crystals. Try an led flashlight!


----------



## Palladium

Only one other thing i do different from you it looks like. Your bars are physically resting on the muslin cloth inside the basket. It's possible to get holes rubbed in the filter from the bars moving around. I put my filter on the outside of the basket and let the bars rub on the plastic casing that i drilled holes in for solution transfer. It's more durable that way. The basket acts as a support frame work for the filter allowing me to pull it tight.


----------



## kadriver

I have heard from others that muslin can be a problem with solids from inside filter getting through and into the electrolyte.

With muslin, this can happen even if the bag is disturbed, or lifted out of the electrolyte (so I have been told).

For this reason, I do not use muslin for a filter material.

I am using dacron filter bags from Lowes. They are for a wet vac and i have modified them to fit inside the basket.

They are tough as nails and I have never had a problem with solids getting into the electrolyte.

I can lift the bag right out of the electrolyte and not have even the slightest concern of solids from inside the bag getting into the pure silver.

I always use double thickness (a filter bag inside a filter bag). This may slow the flow of silver, but it is worth the piece of mind.

I did have one fail due to the crystals contacting the bag once, but that was back when i was running a much higher voltage through the cell.

I was using a battery charger or something. The higher voltage cause the crystals to grow real long and thin.

The result was these thin crystals grew quickly and I was alway knocking them down.

With the proper voltage set at between 1.5 volts DC to 3.8 volts DC, the crystals grow fatter instead of longer, and I have never experienced a bag short-out at these voltages.

I am also piling anode bars on top of the electrode bar to keep it pressed down on the anode bars that are below it and in contact with the electrolyte.

As the bars at the bottom dissolve, the extra weigh on top keeps everthing pushed down, which helps ensure good electrical contact as well.

I don't think that the bars can rub a hole in this material, it is very tough (but I could be wrong).

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

If it works, it works!

I've used doubled up muslin cloth since the beginning and have not had the first problem to speak of.


----------



## philddreamer

Kad, why don't you pour bigger anodes?


----------



## kadriver

The basket that the anodes sit in on top the cell is just right to keep the distance from the sides and bottom of the cell at 4 to 4.5 inches (the recommended distance).

I may get a square mold (insted of the rectangular that I use now).

I guess i just got used to using this shape.


----------



## philddreamer

Thanks!


----------



## kadriver

Here is some more cement silver. It took 4 days to completely cement out the silver.

There was much black powder at the end, might be PGMs.

The black that cemented out last turned the color of the silver powder to a dark grey.

The anode bars melted kind of funny, due to the PGM contanmination I suppose.

The cement silver is usually nice and light colored and melts almost like silver crystal from the silver cell.

The powder in this photo came from a 19th century pitcher and two sterling bowls.

The weight before nitric digestion was 971 grams.

After digestion in nitric, and cementing with copper pipe, the weight of the cement silver after drying completely was 844 grams.

SO, 844 grams of cement silver is about 87% of the original weight or 971 grams - but there was filter papers that contained a few grams.

kadriver


----------



## 4metals

amesametrita

While it is obvious you have a background in refining, it is my opinion you are taking the wrong approach to this forum.

I came to this forum after a working career in refining and I was amazed at the things you can learn form the varied approaches our members take at the same task. I learned from that and I am better at what I do and of more value to my clients because of it. While it is true what you say about the geometry of the bowl, it is in fact a very cost effective solution but its efficiency suffers. But not the purity of the final product. In the end what are we after? 

For years the refining industry were a closed mouth bunch (it still largely is) and outside input just wasn't free flowing. The knowledgeable people in the trade never compared notes and technology suffered. This forum to me is like a giant crucible where many different thinking members freely discuss their ideas and from that comes a wonderful opportunity to learn and discover new methods, its all in the way you look at it. 

As Thomas Edison once said, "I have not failed 10,000 times, I have successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work"
we can all learn from people discussing both their successes and their failures, and decide on our own which ideas have merit.


----------



## element47.5

Great photos as always, ka! 

The crystals on the inside of the bowl look ideal. That they slide right off (which is what I would have expected) is just a bonus. 

Very nice, all of it.


----------



## mikeinkaty

kadriver -

I just finished a cement run and it was the quickest drop yet. It was an 880 gram Sterling disolve. I put a 3" diameter copper pipe (about 10" long) that had a 1/8" wall thickness in the pot and man! it went to work. After 6 hrs it slowed down so I took it out and did a clean out. That cleanout recovered about as much mud as I expected, without actually weighing it. I decanted and filtered the mud and put all the fluid back into the cementing bucket and put the copper pipe back in. The copper pipe was pretty clean at that time.

About 30 minutes later I noticed it wasn't doing much and on looking at the pipe I saw a black oxide buildup. Figuring the Ph had gotten a little high (as amesametrita suggested) I put in 1 ml of nitric acid (there was a little more than 1 gallon of solution). I scraped off the oxide and put the pipe back in. After a few minutes I noticed the reaction had started up. The next day there was about 4 ozs more mud in the bottom and the copper pipe did not have any black build-up on it.

I'm holding this 4 ozs back to see if it behaves any differently that the first mud that came out.

Update next day - The last 4 ozs was only 2 because it was low density stuff and it only melted to 1.27 ounces and the bar was pretty dark colored (dark grey). All the other was high density and melted into nice shiny bars. I will melt this last one in with another bar for electrolysis.

Mike


----------



## amesametrita

I’m ready to learn and will appreciate your comment here:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16919

Regards!


----------



## kadriver

Mike, I'm pretty sure that the black build-up on the copper is not due to pH, but rather the platinum group metals cementing out.

I have seen it before - especially with older silver pieces. Older silver pieces tend to carry more of the platinum groups than the newer ones do.

I have a bunch of cell slimes saved up (because i did not know how to refine them yet).

After all these anode bars dissolve, then I'll add all the slimes together and refine them (the best I know how) to see what other metals are in those slimes.

This is great fun! Like a forensic seach for the truth using electrochemisrty - this forum is absolutely priceless!

kadriver


----------



## mikeinkaty

We aught to have a contest. Everyone take 100 grams of Gorham sterling table ware and 100 grams of mixed sterling jewlery and see who can extract the most value from each batch.


----------



## kadriver

I just left the shop with some new pictures.

I used a bamboo skewer to scrap the crystals from the inside of the stainless bowl.

It was so much fun that I decided to make a short video.

This silver cell is hands down the best I have ever seen.

The silver comes right off with no problem.

I will probably get a small plastic spatula to make the work go a little quicker.

It reminded me of scraping the ice off a car window - only much easier.

I consider this whole experiment a resounding success!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjZ_EH-yDM[/youtube]

I put the anode basket back in place and turned it back on.

This cell is so much easier to operate and maintain - Thanks Palladium - my highest recommendation goes to you.

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

Very nice Kevin! Looks like they just slide right off. Did you use a new bowl or a used one. Mine had a brushed finish with some minor abrasions and not a polished one. Hummmm... Now that i think about it could that be why you are not getting as many amps through your cell as i was able to? A rough surface has more surface area than a smooth one. It reminds me of ice scraping also. It's got that rice crispy crunch. Great job brother !!!!


----------



## kadriver

The bowl was brand new bought at K-mart. The finish was smooth and polished looking.

The bottom of the bowl exterior was coated with a rubber material to give it friction to stay in place on the counter top.

I am at 170 grams per liter concentration, about half the concentration of your electrolyte.

I still have many silver anodes to run through the cell. I can't wait to get it all cleaned out and get a final tally.

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

Some pictures of the washed crystals would be nice. :mrgreen: 

I have run crystals through the cell twice and you would be amazed at the 2nd go around. The crystals dried to be silver in nature but they also had this pale color to them like death i guess you would say. They were some of the prettiest bars i think i have ever had the privilege of pouring. They melted like butter!


----------



## Palladium

You know the funny part about this is it's actually a design that Harold and Chris had a discussion about a couple of years back. I can't take credit for the design, just it assembly. Their is very few things i have discovered on my own in this search for knowledge of gold refining. I owe all my knowledge to this forum and it's members. Hell i'm lucky i even made it this far. Don't reinvent the wheel, just roll with it.


----------



## mikeinkaty

kadriver said:


> The bowl was brand new bought at K-mart. The finish was smooth and polished looking.
> 
> The bottom of the bowl exterior was coated with a rubber material to give it friction to stay in place on the counter top.
> 
> I am at 170 grams per liter concentration, about half the concentration of your electrolyte.
> 
> I still have many silver anodes to run through the cell. I can't wait to get it all cleaned out and get a final tally.
> 
> kadriver



Wow, that a bunch of silver!

My crystals just sorta slide off the SS cathode. Just takes a light touch to get them off. But, most of my crystals form in the bottom of the glass tank. The crystals start running across the bottom (looking for the anode) and I get large piles under the anode. I move the anode occasionally to let it build up elsewhere.

Over the last 3 days I've harvested about 1kg weight of crystals. Probably about 500 grams yet to do on this batch of sterling;.

Mike


----------



## kadriver

Palladium said:


> You know the funny part about this is it's actually a design that Harold and Chris had a discussion about a couple of years back. I can't take credit for the design, just it assembly. Their is very few things i have discovered on my own in this search for knowledge of gold refining. I owe all my knowledge to this forum and it's members. Hell i'm lucky i even made it this far. Don't reinvent the wheel, just roll with it.



I agree, ALL my knowledge in refining has come from other members on this forum (and out of the literature). 

But it was you who urged me to try the stainless bowl - remember, you said, "you'll throw rocks at the graphite cathodes".

I liked the glass cells, they worked great, but this design really does blow the glass and graphite out of the water.

But there is a plus for those glass cells that the stainless can't compare to; the size and shape of the crystals.

The glass cells made really neat sword-shaped crystals, and some nice fat crystal (see photo).

The stainless bowl makes nodular looking crystals that tend to be uniform and not very spectacular - but at a much faster rate.

This faster rate is the holy grail that I have been searching for - for a small guy like me, cashflow is king.

The faster I can make the silver crystal, the faster I get paid.

The stainless cell is at least twice as fast as the glass/graphite cells that I used to operate.

Thanks again.

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

I agree! Those crystals do look pretty from the glass cells, but production is the name of the cash game. Sad part about all this is..... I hate silver !!!!!!! I really do. I learned it because it's part of the process and i have it down pat. Only problem is i hate silver.  Now gold..... Yeah, just my cup of tea there. I find it so much easier that silver to process if that makes sense? Not to mention the profit.


----------



## kadriver

I'm right there with you.

The silver takes so much longer with many more steps.

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

Two things you may or may not have noticed. With the spread out cathode area you are not having to knock down growing crystals and the crystals are like miniature ocean corals. It makes the cleaning so much better to me than bigger crystals. It"s like with the smaller crystals you don't have impurities trapped in the matrix like you seem to have with larger crystal formations. You can build a lot of silver on the surface area of that cell without worrying about a short. It makes for longer runs with bigger production yields between solution adjustments and less attention maintenance wise.


----------



## mikeinkaty

I've got a small SS bowl and a 2 oz bar. Think I'll try it. I have seen large crystals and have wondered how they did it. Could crystals be made large enough and sturdy enough to solder onto a silver button?

Mike


----------



## kadriver

Mike, 

That big crystal in the photo above is very fragile. It holds together ok if it is handled gingerly.

But if it were knocked around a bit, it would eventually fall to pieces.

I just bought a bunch more sterling silver scrap, plus my wife has a line on a "room full of sterling silver" at one of her estate sales.

I told her to get me in the door before the sale starts and I'll give them %70 of spot just to get at that giant lot of sterling - it included two complete sterling flatware sets!

I have another stainless bowl, I may have to construct another silver cell to accomodate the influx of sterling feed stock.

What a way to make a living - I hope they don't mess it up some how.

kadriver


----------



## mikeinkaty

Something I may have learned tonight with my cell. I started a new bar and cranked the current up to 6 amps. After about 5 hours of that I noticed the usual long flimsy crystals growing everywhere. Since it was bed time and I knew it would go all night I cranked the current down to 2.5 amps. The next day when I collected the crystals they were bigger than any others I have made. I use a small funnel to get the crystals into bottles and these would not pass through the small end of the funnel. Never had that happen before.

I think that by cutting the current down that nodules then started growing all in the long flimsy crystals. The important things are that I got larger crystals and the total time was less than normal (running all at 3 amps).

Mike


----------



## GOLDbuyerCA

*First, Good Photos, * i use stainless steel myself, near same size bowls, , i run several, Your copper clips, might be higher resistance, over time, than you think. 

i use a stainless steel to copper double screw connector. to get my connector resistance contacts as low as possible. i use carbon rods, with nickle hose clamp connectors. 

i have advanced to pulse platting, , n i just get at it, it is all in solution, you can get it all out if you keep your chemistry active. Good Photos, i like your cell design, Cheers from Thomas / Vancouver BC.


----------



## mikeinkaty

GOLDbuyerCA said:


> *First, Good Photos, * i use stainless steel myself, near same size bowls, , i run several, Your copper clips, might be higher resistance, over time, than you think.
> 
> i use a stainless steel to copper double screw connector. to get my connector resistance contacts as low as possible. i use carbon rods, with nickle hose clamp connectors.
> 
> i have advanced to pulse platting, , n i just get at it, it is all in solution, you can get it all out if you keep your chemistry active. Good Photos, i like your cell design, Cheers from Thomas / Vancouver BC.



What is pulse plating?

In one of my cells I got a lot of plating of silver on the SS cathode. Sometimes it would be a sheet of 2 or 3 square inches that would slide right off the cathode. It was pure silver with no staining or discoloration what so ever. It only did that for 5 or 6 runs in the one cell. I have wondered if one or the other of my two rectifiers had popped a diode on one side - causing half-wave rectification. But at the same current the voltage is escentially the same in both cells so probably not.

Mike


----------



## GOLDbuyerCA

*Pulse Plating* is DC, with current reversal, "pulse" for a fraction of the time, 1/10 to 1/100 in reverse current, to keep the so called Slimes from building up on the plated material collector.

This technique gives a very high quality to plating. Most supplies are just voltage, and current flow, as you set it up. Over voltage, and current deminishing, is the electro motive force. to get 
the metal out of solution. as you may know, end current reduction is an indication of plating out your metal from solution. or end of effective playing from a spoiled solution 

i will take a "shot" at giving a picture, discriptive, of contact connectors to stainless steel. and an anti oxidizing shield to keep the plater from coroding. nasty stuff oxidazation. 

Very good pictures of your procedure. enjoyed.


----------



## kadriver

The cell has run for two weeks non-stop. It ran at 3.1 volts with variouos amperages betweeen 1.5 to 2.0 amps.

I found that I could pull the filter material up (like you pull up your shorts if they slide down your hips) and the amps would increase. It shifted the anode bars in the basket and improved electron flow through the cell. I am using a doulbe filter made of tough dacron material (a filter inside a filter inside the basket).

I disassembled the cell Wednesday evening - it only took about 5 minutes. I could put it all back together in about the same amount of time.

The cleanout is much easier. I used a piece of plastic to scrap the crystals off the bowl - they came right off with no problem.

There is a lip on the edge of the stainless bowl and it allows pouring off the electrolyte with NO DRIPPING.

Should be about 60 or 70 troy ounces of pure silver there. 

I am going to use this same electrolyte (after filtering) for my next batch of silver, augmented with about another 100grams of pure silver.

I have a spectrophotometer that I am using to measure the dissolved copper in the cell - I kept a sample of the used electrolyte to analyze - the spectrophotometer will tell me how much dissolved copper is in the electrolyte sample from the stainless steel silver cell. Here is the thread for the spectrophotometer;

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17232

I stuck the used filter basket in a casserole dish with lid to keep it proteced.

I love this new setup.

kadriver


----------



## element47.5

Beautiful job and as always, thanks for the great pictures! Maybe the following could be a source a modest improvement in your throughput time. Because you pour your raw anode bars, the ones you have shown (to my eye) appear to have a convex top...or, freeze-ring ridges on top. Regardless, this produces the possibility of reduced contact area, bar-to-bar. Less contact area = less current flow = reduced deposition rate. I am not sure if there's a way to give the tops of the raw bars a good smack with a hammer in a way that doesn't embed impurities into the bars which would then cause other issues....or run them through a rolling type of deal, between two heavy steel cylinders so as to flatten out any bumps or overall convexity. But I DO know that if you processed all your raw anode bars so that bumps or convexivity were taken out or reduced you'd get better current flow. 

Just a thought on your fine work which is already near ideal, as I see it.


----------



## kadriver

Yes, this would be an improvement. I have thought about granulating the cement silver instead of pouring bars.

Just put the granules in the anode basket and set the electrode bar on the granuales.

I may try this for my next batch of silver. 

I have put crystals in the anode basket to re-refine them and it woked perfectly.

kadriver


----------



## philddreamer

Kad, try to pour bigger anodes, thus, more surface area; with the bowl you have plenty of surface area, so the more surface area on your anode more speed of deposition. 
GSP once shared this with me when I was building my half galon cell: 
"Since you're using a cathode on both sides of the anode, you can calculate both sides of the anode to determine the best amperage to use. You have 10 in2 of anode area (both sides). For that area, ideally, you would use about 3.5 amps or, twice as much as you would use with only one cathode - therefore, you would get twice the production. The cathode surface area isn't that critical, but I would recommend at least a 1 to 1 ratio, and having the cathode area twice the size of the anode would probably be better - it might give denser crystals. "
Phil


----------



## kadriver

Got it Phil - thanks


----------



## Dawg

I've been watching/reading Kadriver's post's thru out this forum. Kad you got it going, I've got to try the Stainless my next go round, I did 102 troy when I got back from Afganistan ealier this year swapped out with NTR in Buffalo NY for Bullion certified. For grins and BS I took a few bars into one of the local places in Utica "Cash For Gold" the guy was very interested then started telling me it had lead in it I had to laugh I know it didnt there for he could on give me 50% spot started packing my stuff back up then an offer of 55%. I drove to Buffalo they did all their test got my assay at .98. Anyway Kad you and this whole forum are amazing. I've learned alot for you & everyone ( also read alot over & over) I've only been able to do what I did last summer by standing on the shoulders of Giants.


----------



## kadriver

Dawg - Thanks man, this forum really is unbeatable, nothing on the internet comes close.

I did the same thing with a 1 troy ounce piece of gold I refined. I took it to the cash for gold guy and he said, "its too heavy and too yellow to be real gold". One guy thought it was gold plated lead!

He would'nt touch it. I can't blame them though - too much fake stuff out there so you must be careful.

Here is a shot of the pure silver crystal from the stainless cell clean-out (see attached photo). 

The new configuration ran for exactly two weeks. I harvested 2300.1 grams of pure silver crystal - almost 74 troy ounces.

The glass/graphite dual cells used to run for about 20 days and give me around 50 troy ounces.

I used 184 grams of the crystal to augment the electrolyte for the next cell set-up and operation.

When I dissolved the 184 grams the resulting silver nitrate solution was crystal clear - looked just like pure water.

This stainless configuration is the way to go. I had it set up and running again, in no time at all.

I have many upgrades to install such as larger anode basket and larger anode bars, stainless lugs to allow easy connection of the electrical leads. Someone suggested welding electrical connection points on the bottom of the cell - I might look at doing this too.

Also, I would like to experiment with muslin cloth for the anode filters. The dacron material I use for the anode filter bags has a tight weave. This might be causing a restriction and slowing the process.

But for now I have so much silver (and many bills to pay) that I just can't afford for the cell to be down for extended periods.

I am greatful to be in this line of work - its like a dream come true for ka!


----------



## Palladium

I think you will like the muslin cloth. It's economical and efficient for the job. I found it in the fabric department at Wal-Mart and for $10 you can buy enough to last a long time.


----------



## mikeinkaty

Palladium said:


> I think you will like the muslin cloth. It's economical and efficient for the job. I found it in the fabric department at Wal-Mart and for $10 you can buy enough to last a long time.


I got 2 yards of the tight weave there at walmart and I ran it through the washing machine to get ride of the sizing on it. I cut 4" circles out of it to use in the Buchner funnel when a coffee filter is not porous enough.


----------



## Palladium

That's like 2.5 oz/day for the graphite dual cells and
5.2 oz/day for the stainless single cell. Double the output. Didn't you do a measurement one time on the graphite cell where you measured amperes consumption? If i'm not mistaken weren't you consuming more amps in that circuit?


----------



## g_axelsson

kadriver said:


> I have many upgrades to install such as larger anode basket and larger anode bars, stainless lugs to allow easy connection of the electrical leads. Someone suggested welding electrical connection points on the bottom of the cell - I might look at doing this too.


I would be careful with welding anything to the bottom. I experimented with some cells 20 years ago and I used stainless steel vessels, but one of them sprung a leak, the spot weld where the handle were attached didn't stand up to the environment and developed tiny holes and cracks. I think that the heat and strain can affect the alloy in a bad way. Even below the melting point of an alloy you could have atoms migrating away from crystal boundaries, making a grain boundary that isn't the same alloy as the bulk material.
If you are going to weld contacts on your vessel, do it at the rim... or why not just use a metal plate under the vessel, just standing the cell on it to make contact.

Göran


----------



## Palladium

g_axelsson said:


> kadriver said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have many upgrades to install such as larger anode basket and larger anode bars, stainless lugs to allow easy connection of the electrical leads. Someone suggested welding electrical connection points on the bottom of the cell - I might look at doing this too.
> 
> 
> 
> I would be careful with welding anything to the bottom. I experimented with some cells 20 years ago and I used stainless steel vessels, but one of them sprung a leak, the spot weld where the handle were attached didn't stand up to the environment and developed tiny holes and cracks. I think that the heat and strain can affect the alloy in a bad way. Even below the melting point of an alloy you could have atoms migrating away from crystal boundaries, making a grain boundary that isn't the same alloy as the bulk material.
> If you are going to weld contacts on your vessel, do it at the rim... or why not just use a metal plate under the vessel, just standing the cell on it to make contact.
> 
> Göran
Click to expand...


Very good observation. Here is the science behind what you are talking about. It's a dam good read also. http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.6/palmer.html


----------



## kadriver

Palladium,

I connected the new power supply to the glass cells and I could only get 0.3 amps to flow, and that was drifting lower as the cells operated.

At 3.1 volts and after adjusting the filter bags I was able to get 1.9 to 2.0 amps to flow with the stainless setup (the average was about 1.6 amps).

So I would say that the power requirements would be much greater with the greater flow experienced using the stainless cell setup.

Welding on the bottom of the cell not a good idea - got it.

There is a rubber coating on the bottom of the bowl so a metal plate wouldn't work unless I stripped off the coating first.

This cell setup us a giant leap for me - thanks again Palladium.

kadriver


----------



## GOLDbuyerCA

*admire your results * 74 of crystal, silver, , you got my attention, very good photo, , we all should have a photo or two like that,


----------



## kadriver

element47.5 said:


> Beautiful job and as always, thanks for the great pictures! Maybe the following could be a source a modest improvement in your throughput time. Because you pour your raw anode bars, the ones you have shown (to my eye) appear to have a convex top...or, freeze-ring ridges on top. Regardless, this produces the possibility of reduced contact area, bar-to-bar. Less contact area = less current flow = reduced deposition rate. I am not sure if there's a way to give the tops of the raw bars a good smack with a hammer in a way that doesn't embed impurities into the bars which would then cause other issues....or run them through a rolling type of deal, between two heavy steel cylinders so as to flatten out any bumps or overall convexity. But I DO know that if you processed all your raw anode bars so that bumps or convexivity were taken out or reduced you'd get better current flow.
> 
> Just a thought on your fine work which is already near ideal, as I see it.



I have experienced another upgrade to operating my silver cell.

I added the silver "shot" made from cement silver to my anode basket and it seems to work perfectly.

The shot provides many places for electrical contact and eliminates the need for have the bars completely flat to make good electrical contact.

Making the shot saves time over having to cast anode bars.

Also, when adding the anode bars to the anode basket I would have to remove the electrode to stack new bars underneath the electrode bar (the bar with the little post for attching the alligator clip).

With the shot I just pour it in over the electrode bar and then kind of pick up on it to allow the shot to work its way underneath.

From now one I'll be using silver shot made from cement silver instead of anode bars for my electrolytic silver cell.

The silver from the first clean-out assayed at 999 fine by NTR today.

kadriver


----------



## element47.5

Well apart from our species-wide instinct to really, really like molten metal (think: Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame) 

Even though you have it down to a fine art and it's certainly somewhat satisfying to make the pours, it has to be a happy thing for you to eliminate the need to ingotize your raw anodes. 

Why couldn't your next ingot "stub" be the next sterling spoon you snag at the next garage sale? Or are you trying to keep anything worse than say .98 out of the soup? 

Have you run a good load (50+ oz) thru your cell with "shot" anode? 

I ask because I'm curious if you can just pour new shot into the basket as the cell processes the initial charge. 

The pictures are great!


----------



## kadriver

I have made two additions of shot to the anode basket since I started the cell. I just pour the shot in while the cell is operating.

It might be the placebo effect, but it seems to me that the shot is running through much quicker than the solid anode bars did last time around.

I have more cement silver to run throught the cell. I am keeping better records since I began operating this cell.

We will see if the shot makes a difference in speed.

Cool stuff!

kadriver


----------



## its-all-a-lie

kadriver said:


> I have made two additions of shot to the anode basket since I started the cell. I just pour the shot in while the cell is operating.
> 
> It might be the placebo effect, but it seems to me that the shot is running through much quicker than the solid anode bars did last time around.
> 
> I have more cement silver to run throught the cell. I am keeping better records since I began operating this cell.
> 
> We will see if the shot makes a difference in speed.
> 
> Cool stuff!
> 
> kadriver



^ The kid in the candy store with a pocket full of quarters :mrgreen:


----------



## element47.5

kadriver said:


> but it seems to me that the shot is running through much quicker than the solid anode bars did last time around.
> 
> I have more cement silver to run throught the cell.
> 
> kadriver



You're going to have just about the best darn surface area = current flow imaginable with the shot.


----------



## stihl88

kadriver,

I firmly believe theres a way to do what you have done with the silver shot but instead with cemented powder.

I mentioned it a while back when i had my cell up and running but on memory someone said it might not work out.

Something to ponder though...


----------



## kadriver

stihl88,

I tried to add the cement silver right in the basket.

It worked, but the rate that the silver powder digested was real slow.

I figured that the powder some how created a restriction in the weave of the filter.

The silver shot is being eaten up at a much greater rate.

kadriver


----------



## Palladium

The silver powder probably packed together like wet sand and won't allow the solution to penetrate it. The only place you would get surface area would be the perimeter of the mass.


----------



## stihl88

Ok, why mess with a good thing then, I like the shot idea. Smart thinking


----------



## kadriver

Here is a shot of some cement silver that has been granulated by pouring into cold water through a hole in the melt dish.

The sample on the right is cement silver from 925/sterling jewelry items and some modern flatware (spoons and forks) - weight is 416 grams total.

The sample on the right is from some older 19th century silver spoons and, cups, plates and other - weight was 718 grams but some has already been added to the silver cell.

Notice the difference in color of the two samples - the one on the right has peacock feathered colors to it like PdO (palladium oxide).

I am hoping that there will be platinum group metals left behind in the anode filter of my silver cell from this lot of silver.

kadriver


----------



## butcher

Kevin I am guessing that the first one on the right is on the left. :lol:


----------



## kadriver

Are we talking my right, or yours. Did you know that 3 lefts make a right? :lol:


----------



## kadriver

My silver cell is digesting the silver shot faster than I can make it.

Since I started the cell last Sat night (7 days ago) the cell has consumed about 1800 grams of silver shot.

This is much faster than I expected. 

It is much faster than the first batch that I harvested a week ago, it took two weeks to get 2300 grams.

At the current rate I can expect about 3600 grams every two weeks.

After having a surplus of feedstock 925/sterling always available, I am now scrambling to get enough to keep feeding the cell.

I need a big score on raw silver so I can keep the cell going.

kadriver


----------



## RicRock

kadriver said:


> After having a surplus of feedstock 925/sterling always available, I am now scrambling to get enough to keep feeding the cell.
> 
> I need a big score on raw silver so I can keep the cell going.
> 
> kadriver



Exactly the kind of problem others wish they had 

Great job, will be setting up mine soon.

Have your wife come train my wife on sniffin' out the sterlin'

Great thread.

Ric


----------



## RicRock

Maybe I missed it in the thread,

What are you using as an electrode bar to stick in your silver shot?


----------



## kadriver

Ric,

I take a piece of silver about 1 Troy ounce, hold it in a propane torch flame until red hot, then beat it with a small hammer and anvil until I have it shaped like a 4 inch long piece of keystock.

I cut it into 1.25 inch sections. Then, using small visegrips, I suspend it over the empty cavity of my graphite mold.

I put the propane torch on it to heat it up, then pour molten silver into the cavity.

The molten silver solidifies around the suspended piece of keystock and it is is welded securely to form a convenient place to attach the alligator clip from the power supply.

Here is a picture of one freshly made back when I was running glass silver cells.

If it is kept out of the electrolyte, then it can be used over and over.


----------



## kadriver

Since adding the silver shot to the anode basket instead of cast anode bars, the amperage has climbed to up over 2 amps.

I believe the silver shot is responsible for the increase in speed of silver production that I have experienced.

I don't think I'll go back to casting anode bars ever again.

kadriver


----------



## Dawg

Well Kad you have motivated me, I have had a New Engineer (EE) just graduated VA Tech working with me for the past 3 weeks here in NM I'm a Communications Engineer dubed this because I've been doing comm. for over 30 years. I decided to give the kid a test gave him the specs for a SS cell told him what I wanted as far as a liquid vol, 1L thru 4L tank, W/a suspension design for 5 oz bars with a power lead insulated from the main container . I also asked for a lug for power & a drain valve on the main tank that is nitric acid resistance. I have a Nephew currently going thru advanced wielding who needs a project and with him getting CAD drawings from an actual engineer is a nice kicker for him. I just promissed to pay for material and a 5 Toz for each I will probably have them show up at my hotel once I finish this project late summer them wanting me to take them out, I'll be heading to LazorSteves (one of the Prof. of refining) neck of the woods for a year or so new project. Hopefully I can meet up with him and have some crawdads & a beer ( love them things afterbeing stationed in MS for several years)

I'm build a stash of sterling somewhat, need something that is quick I have about 6kg of sterling and 7kg of fingers ( another process but thought I would include it for effect as a tag along to the song later mentioned) , like the song says " I FEEL A BAD MOON ON THE RISE" CCR. I just hope I have enough Vacation time to do it.

BTW this is not a Butt Kiss their are alot of amazing things being done here hopefully not too many catch on before I can build my stash

Roger


----------



## kadriver

Dawg,

Sounds like you have some nice things going on.

I have definitely experienced an increase in output from the cell.

I believe this increase is from the use of silver shot instead of using cast anode bars.

My last cell clean out was done on Wed. 13 March. The cell was started on Sat 2 March.

It took only 11 days to produce 73.4 Troy ounces of fine silver from the cell.

That's over 6.6 Troy ounces per day, not bad for a small operation such as mine.

I would recommend using shot rather than cast bars in your anode basket. This greatly increases the surface area of the impure silver that gets exposed to the electrolysis.

Plus it is much easier to refill the basket with shot. You just spoon it in right on top of the electrode bar and then wiggle the electrode bar a little until the shot works its way under the bar.

This keeps the electrode bar away from the electrolyte in the cell and allows it to be used indefinitely.

If the electrode bar does get dissolved, then no problem as it is made of the same cement silver as the shot.

You just have to make a new one if it does get dissolved.

kadriver


----------



## kadriver

I just restarted the cell yesterday. I am still using the same electrolyte.

I used a spectrophotometer to measure the dissolved copper content of the electrolyte.

According to my reference chart made from a known sample of 60 grams of pure copper dissolved in 1 liter of liquid, I am only at 30% to 40% of the way toward being saturated at 60 grams per liter of dissolved copper.

I added another 155 grams of pure silver crystal dissolved in minimum nitric to augment the silver nitrate level of the cell electrolyte to compensate for depletion of the silver from the electrolyte as the cell operates.

This brought the copper level down a little (again measured with a sample using the spectrophotometer).

The spectrophotometer can detect slight changes that the human eye can not detect.

I don't have a way to measure the silver nitrate level of the cell as silver nitrate solution must be measured in a different type of light - UV.

My spectrophotometer only operates in the visible spectrum. I should have spent the extra money and bought one that has UV capability.

kadriver


----------



## kadriver

Dawg,

I would suggest that you have the engineer install several (4 equidistant) lugs around the periphery of the tank.

Then, using equal length leads, you can attach the negative from your power supply to these four points

If you have just one lug, then the electrical flow will cause the silver to form more densely at that one point in the cell.

By having four lugs and using equal length leads to each lug, you will distribute the electrical flow evenly and the silver crystal formation will be more uniform.

Now I see what you were talking about in your PM.

Thank you,

kadriver


----------



## Dawg

Excellent Idea he's used to getting last moment changes from me any way, I'm hyped to get home and try it once it's finished


----------



## fogalau

Yeah! Really nice job and pictures! 
But just one question, where does the siver come from ?


----------



## kadriver

The silver comes from:

Garage sales.

Estate sales

Consignment shops

Thrift stores

Private individuals selling on Craig's list

One of my wife's trade secrets - go knock on the door of the sale address THE DAY BEFORE the sale is to be held.

Politely ask if the items are convieniently located for viewing and many times they will allow you in to view and purchase items with nobody hovering over you like vultures.

Be prepared for rejection, some folks don't take too kindly to being disturbed like that.

But my wife don't care, she is addicted to finding a "good deal".

She has been screamed at, insulted, called names, bitten by dogs, and one time was attacked by the family cat!

But she always seems to pull through and come home with lots of gold and silver for me to refine.

For me the song is so right when the lyric says, "she's the best thing that ever happened to me".

Good luck and happy hunting,

kadriver


----------



## Lou

You are doing this right!

Glad to see you're not the only one using shot.

I talked with Chris about a year ago with the idea "Why don't we just pour shot in the Thum cells",
"Gee Lou, never tried, give it a shot!". It does work!


----------



## mikeinkaty

kadriver said:


> Dawg,
> 
> I would suggest that you have the engineer install several (4 equidistant) lugs around the periphery of the tank.
> 
> Then, using equal length leads, you can attach the negative from your power supply to these four points
> 
> If you have just one lug, then the electrical flow will cause the silver to form more densely at that one point in the cell.
> 
> By having four lugs and using equal length leads to each lug, you will distribute the electrical flow evenly and the silver crystal formation will be more uniform.
> 
> Now I see what you were talking about in your PM.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> kadriver



Rather than drill holes in the bowl why not just secure a #10 or #12 copper wire around the outside of the bowl. Get a SS or plain steel hose clamp (the kind with the screw adjustment). Cut it a couple of inches on either side of the adjustment screw. Drill a hole in each end to secure the ends of the copper wire. Then put it around the bowl and snug it up as tight as you can.

For example: http://www.staples.com/office/suppl...angid=-1&cid=PS:GooglePLAs:859039&KPID=859039

Mike


----------



## mikeinkaty




----------



## rybak97

Ive been running my SS cell for about 3 hours at 3.2V (4.0 amps) and it feels like its heating up. How warm can the solution get before I start to have problems?

I didnt have this problem when I was running the cell in a plastic container with a SS cathode. I think because the lid is styrofoam its insulating the cell. Have you had this issue?


----------



## element47.5

I like that clamp deal, Mike. Clever & cheap!


----------



## mikeinkaty

rybak97 said:


> Ive been running my SS cell for about 3 hours at 3.2V (4.0 amps) and it feels like its heating up. How warm can the solution get before I start to have problems?
> 
> I didnt have this problem when I was running the cell in a plastic container with a SS cathode. I think because the lid is styrofoam its insulating the cell. Have you had this issue?


Did you have the same amount of electrolyte in the plastic container and did you actually measure the temp of the solution? The SS probably feels warm because it is conducting more heat out of the solution which plastic would not do. The electrolyte in my rust removal cells would get close to boiling. I was running them at 20 amps for the bigger pieces. 

Mike


----------



## rybak97

mikeinkaty said:


> rybak97 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive been running my SS cell for about 3 hours at 3.2V (4.0 amps) and it feels like its heating up. How warm can the solution get before I start to have problems?
> 
> I didnt have this problem when I was running the cell in a plastic container with a SS cathode. I think because the lid is styrofoam its insulating the cell. Have you had this issue?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you have the same amount of electrolyte in the plastic container and did you actually measure the temp of the solution? The SS probably feels warm because it is conducting more heat out of the solution which plastic would not do. The electrolyte in my rust removal cells would get close to boiling. I was running them at 20 amps for the bigger pieces.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Exact same amount of electrolyte. I think you’re right about the conductivity. Add to that the 1in Styrofoam lid and it makes for some warm solution. I ended today and will be posting some pics on my Thum cell thread. It worked out pretty well!


----------



## lazersteve

Is anyone out there paying a higher rate for 4N silver verses 3N silver? I love to run my cell just as much as the next guy, but it's not really necessary unless your buyer requires 4N+ purity, and the buyer is willing to pay you for the increased purity. My silver buyer pays the same percent of spot for minted 4N silver bars and coins as he does for 99%+ silver that has not been through the cell. 

I would love to hear what everyone else thinks about this point.

Steve


----------



## its-all-a-lie

lazersteve said:


> Is anyone out there paying a higher rate for 4N silver verses 3N silver? I love to run my cell just as much as the next guy, but it's not really necessary unless your buyer requires 4N+ purity, and the buyer is willing to pay you for the increased purity. My silver buyer pays the same percent of spot for minted 4N silver bars and coins as he does for 99%+ silver that has not been through the cell.
> 
> I would love to hear what everyone else thinks about this point.
> 
> Steve



I prefer to run my silver through the cell just for my peace of mind, to simply know i have ATLEAST .999 purity. I do not sell any of my silver except on rare occasion and have not had any luck refining to a guaranteed 3N with any other method. The reason i say this is because i did a trade with scrapman for some of his rounds several months ago, almost a year ago and the assay on refined/recovered silver that was only cemented with copper and washed several times with ammonia and hot water assayed as follows:
Beginning Weight(with bag): 34.91oz

After Weight Melt: 33.54oz

AG: 96.34%
NI: 1.75%
CU: 1.91%
This^ material was all flatware that had been dissolved in nitric and cemented with copper, washed in alternating baths of hot ammonia and hot water and filter through the buchner. There appeared to be no traces of copper in the cemented silver after 4 washes as the rinses ran clear. I prefer to run through the cell so i know for sure my finished product is pure. As for selling at a higher premium, i cant get a better price from my buyer for 4N vs. 3N so when i have to sell i only sell sterling jewelry items and hold on the flatware/holloware for refining. My buyer pays me 86% spot for sterling items on the scale and 100% spot for silver eagles but i will be damned if i will sell them to him!


----------



## Anonymous

Since I've been refining silver already and I've been reading this thread trying to keep up with it, I'm going to build me a stainless steel cell so I can learn about really getting the purity as mentioned through this method. My understanding has increased a bit, and I'm sure once I reread this thread from the beginning, it'll make more sense to me.

I like the setups too. I just never understood how to make it work properly to refine pure silver.

Kevin


----------



## Palladium

I've thought about the same question myself. For me i guess it's about producing the highest quality of metals possible. Sure my customer doesn't pay that much of a higher premium, but i know in my mind that know matter what my product tests it will at least meet their minimum requirements no matter what. I do my gold the same way to. I don't stop at .995, i try to blow it out the water. I now do a min of 3 drops on my gold and have learned that's it's not that hard or costly to go that extra mile. I want my customers to go WOW! I dare every customer i have to pull assay's on my materials. It's the quality, product, craftsmanship, and reputation for such metals that sells and sells well. Johnson Matthey and Argor-Heraeus sell their image for quality as much as they do their products.


----------



## nickvc

For me the reason to use the cell is to remove the other values before selling onwards and as most buyers don't care about the actual purity when it comes to the percentage paid commercially it doesn't make much sense to run it through the cell unless you have other values to collect.


----------



## lazersteve

Silver cemented on copper is never up to my standards in many respects, regardless of how much washing and rinsing is involved. Silver produced via sugar and lye is very pure, over 3N in most cases with careful attention to washing and the proper handling of the silver nitrate solution prior to precipitation of the chloride. 

I would strongly advise everyone to keep ammonium hydroxide out of your refining processes if at all possible. It can easily form very explosive compounds and makes disposing of your wastes a real hassle.

My silver chloride conversions have never assayed with any gold, palladium, or platinum present. The reason for this is my attention to proper filtration prior to precipitation of the chloride and attention to testing my rinse solutions. Filter your nitrate 100% transparent and free of particulate, precipitate with HCl (muriatic acid), filter, press, wash with hot water, filter, press, test rinse water for lead, copper, nickel, and precious metals (if present more hot water rinses). The silver chloride is now very pure and conversion should go smoothly without any metal contamination. Precious metals are either caught as solids in the initial filtration or dissolved by the AR formed when HCl is added to the nitrate solution, so they never make it into the silver. Base metal nitrates are removed by hot water rinses, filtering, and pressing. Testing of the filter water ensures no soluble base metals are present, if they are present more washes are necessary before converting or melting.

I have updated the Guided Tour link to include acquaintance tests for identifying base metals in solution.

Steve


----------



## lazersteve

Palladium said:


> I've thought about the same question myself. For me i guess it's about producing the highest quality of metals possible. Sure my customer doesn't pay that much of a higher premium, but i know in my mind that know matter what my product tests it will at least meet their minimum requirements no matter what. I do my gold the same way to. I don't stop at .995, i try to blow it out the water. I now do a min of 3 drops on my gold and have learned that's it's not that hard or costly to go that extra mile. I want my customers to go WOW! I dare every customer i have to pull assay's on my materials. It's the quality, product, craftsmanship, and reputation for such metals that sells and sells well. Johnson Matthey and Argor-Heraeus sell their image for quality as much as they do their products.



Do you run all of your gold through an electrolytic cell? If not, do you not have peace of mind with the purity of your gold? Peace of mind for me does not come from using a particular technique for refining my precious metals, it comes from performing the techniques that I use to the best of my ability. If you can achieve market quality gold using wet chemistry alone, what makes you think market quality silver cannot be attained using wet chemistry also? 

It's not the process you use, it's your attention to detail with the process you choose. Refining metals to high purity is more about discipline. Just because one uses a silver cell to refine their silver, does not guarantee high purity silver. Careless use of the cell or poor control of the cell operating parameters, can lead to silver that is no more pure than the starting silver. I find the silver cell to be a useful tool when a customer sends me bars of cast cemented silver. If I receive dirty silver bars for refining, I use my silver cell. If I get silver scrap in a form used by consumers, I process with my own methods that give me a purity of equal or greater purity than the cell will produce. I have 100% confidence of my final product, as my methods are tried and true when properly performed. 

Steve


----------



## kadriver

Steve, I have produced cement silver (cemented on copper) that appears as pure as silver that has been through my silver cell.

To get this level of purity out of cement silver, I use coils of clean copper wire. As the silver cements I knock it off and then pull the coil out of the silver nitrate before all the silver has cemented out, filter, rinse, dry and melt. Then add a fresh coil of copper to get the rest of the silver and other PMs if present.

I know that other metals will still have a chance to contaminate the cemented silver, but it is usually very pure and well suited for my silver cell. The cement silver made in the way described above is so devoid of any copper that the electrolyte in my silver cell turns a pale yellow rather than blue or green.

But recently, I have just cemented ALL the metals out after dissolving the sterling 925 in dilute nitric.

This last batch that I have been working on has produced some very black powder toward the end of the cementation. It actually turns the cement silver powder a very dark grey color and it is very difficult to melt. I hope this is not just copper, but maybe some PGMs.

I think that running all the silver through the cell is still the best way to get the bonus metals that sterling and 925 silver are known to carry - especially the 19th century silver items.

I have been saving all my silver cell slimes in a 2 liter beaker. There is about 1/2 inch of undissolved material in the bottom of that beaker. It is probably mostly dirt and other waste, but a stannous chloride test on some of it dissolved in dilute nitric indicates at least some palladium is present.

I am saving the slimes until I find a good solid method to recover all the precious metals that the slimes might contain. Plus I will have a fairly good sized batch to work with.

I once dissolved a large 700 gram heavy silver mug from the 1800s. It was not marked and the silver was only about 80%, but the material left in the filter after dissolving yielded about 1.5 grams of gold from just that piece! I know this is probably a rare occurrence, but it does reveal that silver (especially older pieces) carry other metals of value.

I am selling my 5 troy ounce silver bars from my silver cell for about 15% to 20% over spot, just sold 7 of them yesterday on eBay, open auction starting bid at $0.99 with no reserve. One of them went for $148. With silver hovering around $23, that is $33 over spot or nearly 30% over spot!

I usually only get about 10% over spot. To me this means that silver is unusually low or over sold right now. I always pick the best looking 5 ounce bar and save it for myself out of each batch of silver bars that I sell to be stashed in a secure location (in the ground).

To me it is important that these bars are as pure as I can possibly get them for the customers who buy my silver bars.

The silver from my silver cells always assay at 3N plus, probably closer to 4Ns.

kadriver


----------



## lazersteve

Kevin,

The gold in the 1800's sterling is easily recovered in the filtration stage of dissolving the sterling with 50/50 nitric acid. The hardest metals to get out when using dilute nitric on sterling are the PGMs. Palladium is easily dealt with by using DMG to scavenge the Pd from the nitrate solution. Platinum is not so easy to remove from silver nitrate, but one can easily remove the silver as the chloride leaving the AR with Pt in it behind. Then the Pt can be recovered normally. A plus to working with silver nitrate solution containing PGMs is that the PGMs are easily tested for with DMG and stannous after the silver is removed. It's pretty rare to find Pt alloyed in silver, but it's not unheard of. Pd on the other hand is pretty common in silver products.

My biggest hang up with cemented silver is that you have to increase the copper concentration so high to get all of the silver out. The highly concentrated copper solution require copious amounts of rinsing to get it all out. Then you have to deal with all that copper nitrate solution. When making silver chloride using HCl, you get all of your nitric acid back (minus the little bit that turns to NOx) and you can use the liquid all over again for AR. If you have some silver nitrate crystals on hand and are meticulous with your HCl additions, you can even use the left over nitric acid on silver again. If you are heavy handed with the HCl, add a little silver nitrate to scavenge the left over chloride, filter and your solution is ready for more silver. You can cut your nitric consumption for silver in 1/2 or less. Your new spectrum analyzers device would come in real handy checking for free chlorine.  

I still run my silver cell, but only when customers send me impure silver bars to refine. There is no difference in the final assay between properly refined silver from the cell and properly refined silver chloride. For me the silver chloride route is faster than the cell and I get the Gold and Rhodium out on the front end instead of the back end of the reaction. DMG makes short work of any Pd that tags along in the nitric acid, and Pt is seldom seen. Finally, I only have to melt the silver once when using the silver chloride route. With the cell, the cemented silver has to be melted before it goes into the cell and when it comes out.

Steve


----------



## kadriver

All good stuff Steve, thanks for sharing those insights.

I have used the silver chloride route to get fine silver.

I have heard it mentioned, but I have never thought of saving the nitric for dissolving more silver!

I once converted about 2 liters of silver chloride to pure silver. After converting to silver oxide with NaOH, I added regular cane sugar, about 2 cups.

The reaction happened so fast that the silver came shooting out over the top of the container like a volcano.

After that I made sure to add the sugar very slowly.

Then, I wanted to show my wife the volcanic reaction (from a safe distance), so I put the bucket in a large catch basin and added the 2 cups of sugar all at once to demonstrate the dramatic effect of the silver erupting.

Well, it just set there gurgling and it never did react the way it had before.

Refining is baffeling at times because some reactions happen so differently even though the same conditions are strenuously duplicated.

The pure silver from the silver chloride reactions was very pure and very beautiful.

I have a big lot that I am working with currently, and I may study your words above and get the PGMs as described so I can get this batch of silver refined.

The 3.5 liter silver cell is taking forever (it seems) to process the kilos of sterling that I have.

Thank you, kadriver (Kevin)


----------



## solar_plasma

> The gold in the 1800's sterling is easily recovered in the filtration stage of dissolving the sterling with 50/50 nitric acid. The hardest metals to get out when using dilute nitric on sterling are the PGMs.



Wow, that is new for me, though I wondered earlier, if there might be pm's in 19th century's copper. Can you make a guess based on your experiences, how much gold or pgm's there could be in 1800's sterling? Are 2g of gold on 750g silver typical? I have 80 g (maybe 120g) 80% silver from that time. So, this would be quite interesting for me, when I once will refine it, though I will wait till I have more of it.


----------



## samuel-a

Steve

We buy 4N silver at -2% or -3% and charge the client for the assay. Good for him if he has over few Kg.
Lower than 4N we will charge refining + assay and then pay anywhere from 80% to 96% of spot (depening on actual silver conent in the melt)


----------



## lazersteve

Kevin,

I always dissolve my table sugar in warm water first before adding it to the basic silver oxide solution. I have found that the dry sugar tends to clump into gooey pockets when added if the sugar is not dissolved first. These gooey clusters tend to slow the silver conversion. When you dissolve your sugar shoot for a saturated solution. I always leave a little undissolved sugar in the bottom of my sugar water after it is vigorously stirred, to ensure saturation.

The conversion stage of the reaction is the easy part, the more difficult part is the filtration and hot water washing prior to conversion. These stages are where the purity is most affected and attention to detail is critical. I find squeezing the silver filter ball helps the process of washing complete. A filter press would be great for this process. Proper testing of the wash solution is also a key point in high purity. I have recently added a link to the Guided Tour on identifying base metals in solution. There is a ton of information in the one new link, but it's worth reading and even printing for reference some of the tests.

I'm glad I can help you Kevin, you have been a great asset to this forum.

Steve


----------



## piccolim

kadriver said:


> Here it is
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-10A-10AMP-3010D-Pro-Digital-DC-Power-Supply-Precision-Variable-Adjustable-/330873545740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0999a40c




Are you better off with a 30V-10A unit or will a 30V-5A do the same for the purposes of the silver cell? Or if I also wanted to use it to deplate gold pins for ex. should one stick to the 10A model.
thanks
mike


----------



## mikeinkaty

piccolim said:


> kadriver said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-10A-10AMP-3010D-Pro-Digital-DC-Power-Supply-Precision-Variable-Adjustable-/330873545740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0999a40c
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you better off with a 30V-10A unit or will a 30V-5A do the same for the purposes of the silver cell? Or if I also wanted to use it to deplate gold pins for ex. should one stick to the 10A model.
> thanks
> mike
Click to expand...

For a silver cell as long as you can vary the voltage between 1.0 and 2.5 volts and can produce up to 6 amps you will be fine. Your cell will probably work best somewhere in that range. No idea about deplating gold. Mike


----------



## Palladium

Being as how this is the thread that best discusses the silver cell for my video series i'm going to post the video's here as i reload them and updated the video settings on youtube. Stay tuned!


----------



## Palladium

Part # 1

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmGtBkxhZi8[/youtube]


----------



## Palladium

# 2


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh1wA-MkLDg[/youtube]


----------



## Palladium

Well that went well. :shock: 

I'm out of town right now and i'm trying to post these remotely through my computer back at home. Seems that while i was doing that i deleted the master copy for disk #4. :x 

It will have to wait until i get home and get the back up off of memory stick. Sorry!


----------



## Palladium

# 3


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlSbE-6aAng[/youtube]


----------



## moose7802

Are number 4&5 going to be available soon? I only got through 3 and can't wait to finish! Thanks again Ralph great videos!!

Tyler


----------



## Palladium

I just got home tonight and i will have to track down the # 4 disk off of my backups. I've got # 5, but i'm not going to post it out of order. I've got a pretty busy weekend also with a 6 and 7 year old so please bear with me.


----------



## moose7802

Thanks man. I was just curious... it's like that TV show that builds up the suspense and then makes you wait till next week. I can wait. Thanks for even posting them at all

Tyler


----------



## Dawg

Looking forward to seeing the harvest


----------



## goldsilverpro

Excellent videos, Ralph. So far, the best videos produced by anyone that I can think of. And, they're free!


----------



## moose7802

I gotta agree with Chris on that one! These are some great videos, well put together and very informative. 

Tyler


----------



## Palladium

A work sheet.


----------



## niteliteone

Palladium said:


> A work sheet.


Nice work. 
Thank you for putting that together.


----------



## Dawg

Thank You Palladium


----------



## butcher

Palladium,
Again you provide the members with even more great information to help them in their goals, Thank you for all of your hard work, and the help, and valuable information you have given to the forum, to make it a great place to learn.
Thank you.


----------



## necromancer

butcher said:


> Palladium,
> Again you provide the members with even more great information to help them in their goals, Thank you for all of your hard work, and the help, and valuable information you have given to the forum, to make it a great place to learn.
> Thank you.




i couldn't have said it better !!

thanks Palladium


----------



## Palladium

# 4


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnyLwmSNz-M[/youtube]


----------



## Palladium

# 5


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T8yxwEJ-ac&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


----------



## moose7802

Yeeeessss!!! Thank you Ralph!!
:lol:  


Tyler


----------



## Dawg

Excellent tutorial

Thank You for your time and commitment

Roger


----------



## nickvc

goldsilverpro said:


> Excellent videos, Ralph. So far, the best videos produced by anyone that I can think of. And, they're free!




Can I echo that sentiment.
With just a little knowledge and effort those videos show exactly how to refine your own silver and as I have said before that cell is awesome in its simplicity of use and construction. I made a similar set up but using a 15 litre container with a large pastic colander as the filter and feed stock holder after seeing Palladiums cell and it is so simple to use.
The fun part is trying to recover and refine the slimes!


----------



## shaftsinkerawc

Thank You for the Video's. Good Health to You & Yours.


----------



## Irons

Great Vids, Ralph. These should be on everyone's bucket list. 8)


----------



## Palladium

Update video :arrow: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UVK18cAeEA&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


----------



## rewalston

Very nice Ralph, makes me wish I had some  All I have silver wise is a sterling ring and a couple lbs of keyboard mylar. I'm going to try melting the mylar down as Steve suggested but I need to find something to melt it in, I don't want to use either of the small melting dishes I have, those I'm saving for gold and refined silver.

Rusty


----------



## Palladium

Update video part #2 [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AEm4JPg8yg&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


----------



## rewalston

two thumbs up, good videos


----------



## edsikes

wow palladium.. i feel like i just crammed for a final i wasnt planning on taking but watching those videos just answered every question i had about silver cell operation..... im gonna try my hand at it in the spring.... one question though... is this safe to do indoors or does it still need to be under a fume hood even after the electrolyte has been diluted? just curious because i would like to clear my garage out some so i dont have to leave this outside.


----------



## nickvc

No acids can really be used inside as they will cause damage to the fabric of the building so some extraction is a must also the fumes will do your own health no good and any metals around will corrode.


----------



## edsikes

oh ok... thought that maybe since the nitric was so dilute that it may not be a problem but i wasnt sure so i wanted to ask first! thanks!


----------



## Palladium

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmZgunOWiSo[/youtube]


----------



## Shark

Great updates Palladium, I have had a few "Well duh" moments watching them. Although I don't do that much silver, I find working with it very interesting.

Thanks guys.


----------



## Palladium

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmCXwSRuc1Q[/youtube]


----------



## Palladium

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC9LO5WnuvU[/youtube]


----------



## GotTheBug

Blown away as usual sir. Something told me to save that dark mud from the filter in a separate container!


----------



## Palladium

The Bounty Buchner!

Sorry guys but i lost about 5 minutes of video during the washing process. Other than that you get the basic concepts.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXZQrpMM9XE[/youtube]


----------



## ExNuke

kadriver said:


> Dawg,
> 
> I would suggest that you have the engineer install several (4 equidistant) lugs around the periphery of the tank.
> 
> Then, using equal length leads, you can attach the negative from your power supply to these four points
> 
> If you have just one lug, then the electrical flow will cause the silver to form more densely at that one point in the cell.
> 
> By having four lugs and using equal length leads to each lug, you will distribute the electrical flow evenly and the silver crystal formation will be more uniform.
> 
> Now I see what you were talking about in your PM.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> kadriver



This thread has some age on it so it's too late to offer anything to those who were in it but a suggestion for anyone new reading it might be well recieved.

For making a good connection to their stainless bowl, find or buy a piece of sheet copper from a craft store and make a permanent connection to it for your negative lead. Then just set your bowl on it. The weight of the full bowl will make a good low resistance connection. It takes the minimal actual contact area of an alligator clip out of the circuit. I found that putting an up side down 4" watch glass in the bottom of the bowl reduces the risk of fingers of crystals reaching the basket and the slight loss of urface area isn't really noticeable.


----------



## Sputins

ExNuke said:


> kadriver said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dawg,
> 
> I would suggest that you have the engineer install several (4 equidistant) lugs around the periphery of the tank.
> 
> Then, using equal length leads, you can attach the negative from your power supply to these four points
> 
> If you have just one lug, then the electrical flow will cause the silver to form more densely at that one point in the cell.
> 
> By having four lugs and using equal length leads to each lug, you will distribute the electrical flow evenly and the silver crystal formation will be more uniform.
> 
> Now I see what you were talking about in your PM.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> kadriver
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread has some age on it so it's too late to offer anything to those who were in it but a suggestion for anyone new reading it might be well recieved.
> 
> For making a good connection to their stainless bowl, find or buy a piece of sheet copper from a craft store and make a permanent connection to it for your negative lead. Then just set your bowl on it. The weight of the full bowl will make a good low resistance connection. It takes the minimal actual contact area of an alligator clip out of the circuit. I found that putting an up side down 4" watch glass in the bottom of the bowl reduces the risk of fingers of crystals reaching the basket and the slight loss of surface area isn't really noticeable.
Click to expand...


This thread does have some age to it, but it remains one of the most relevant to silver refiners. The idea of the conductive plate to sit your bowl on seems like a pretty good idea. In theory it should ensure the equal distribution of conduction current from the applied EMF.

Given that the aim of the electrolytic silver cell is to produce five nines fine silver, in the form of silver crystals. I’ve tried to focus on not just the refinement as such, but the formation and process of the formation of the silver crystals themselves. I’ve produced about 2kg of crystals thus far. 

I’ll soon post some photos of some of the larger crystals I’ve been able to produce. I’m looking into producing some quality photos of certain crystals. Also I know someone, who knows someone who has access to a million dollar Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM). I’ve received several pictures of the scanned crystals from 1mm scale down to 5um. 

I’ll post these shortly… Stay tuned. 

(Harold, is it acceptable to begin a new thread focused on the Silver Crystals themselves, on their size, shape & formation etc. as opposed to the simply the silver cell and the production)?


----------



## Sputins

Series1 #4 Up close: 


The Crystals grew too big, touch-down. Short circuit, replace fuse. 




Aquatic plants?
















This Silver Crystal is about 5cm or 2 inches in length. I’ve collected several like this:


----------



## Sputins

Okay so let’s “image” these Silver Crystals even further! 

I know someone who knows someone with access to a million dollar “Scanning Electron Microscope”.

So I asked my someone and they sent the crystals in to the SEM team. The SEM people loved the Silver Crystals and took glee in checking them out. These are some preliminary pictures of the actual crystals as seen in the beaker from the previous post. 

Starting out at 1mm scale and going through and down to 5um, four scales in the series of pictures. 

Each scale has two images, the ETD which is the standard electron scan and the BSTD which is called the back-scatter scan. With the silver crystal, it shows different contrasts. 

1mm ETD 


1mm BSTD 


500uM ETD 


500um BSED 


30um ETD 


30um BSTD 


5um ETD 


5um BSTD 



These scans were an initial 5 minute play and I’m told they’ll take have another more detailed in depth look at them.


----------



## g_axelsson

I love it!

I know some people who knows a guy with a SEM too... rather everyone I know knows a guy with a SEM he got for a pittance, me! :mrgreen: 
This makes me long to dig out my SEM and get it running again, but it has to wait at least until this autumn. I bought it for $750 and it was in running condition, but I have never had time and space to get it running yet.

Göran


----------



## scrappappy

I'm not Superman but that's a nice Fortress of Solitude 8)


----------



## Lightspeed

Aplogies for resurrecting a very old thread.

I have started a cell as per Kadriver and Palladium, I have a few queries on my setup.

My electrolyte is from cemented shot, silver concentration is 540g into 3L total electrolyte= 180gm P/L. The electrolyte after shot digestion had a slight tint of yellow.

The stainless cathode is indeed 3oo series non magnetic capacity of 3.5L.

There are 3 cathode connections spaced evenly around the circumference.

I have run initially at around 3 amps current giving around 2.3/2.6 volts, after 12 hrs of running this has been increased to 4.7 to max 5 amps to give 3.4 volts. After 30hrs due to electrolyte level increase from silver growth, the cell was shutdown for clean out and re started.

After harvesting the cell I noted there was a large quantity of fine crystal, when compared with Ralph's and Kevin's who both seem to be growing much more dense, this was evident around the edge surface of the bowl while at the bottom underneath the anode the was a much more dense crystal structure and some very nice chunky crystals which needed to be knocked down just to be safe from short although a fuse inline is fitted.

After re start without change to the silver concentration of the electrolyte the cell is reading 4.3 Amps at 3.1 volts.

Can someone offer advice as to the current flow and voltage relative to crystal growth density? 
Is running higher amps a possible source of fine crystal growth?
Does running at lower than 3 volts have an effect on co deposition?

The top pic was taken after approx. 18 hrs run, the electrolyte is still in place I removed the anode and cover to knock down some of the crystal under the anode area for safety.
The bottom on cleanout after approx. 30hrs this morning.


----------



## Palladium

Crystal growth and density are controlled by about 10 different variables and change like the weather from batch to batch. Compact crystals usually form from high current, low voltage, and high concentration (Grams per liter) solutions. High voltage, low amperage, weak concentration solutions produce stringy crystal growth. You're experiencing low current densities when you get further and further away from the anode towards the cathode. Around the rim of the bowl at the top is further away that directly under the anode so the phenomena is more pronounced there. When you first start your cell the contaminants are low so you can actually run about 5 volts and see where the current falls. As you deplete the solution bring the voltage down to around 3 volts to help with co deposits. Other things that can and will cause stringy growth is anode surface area in relation to cathode area, restrictions in your filter cloth, and the type or amount of contaminants in your solution. All these things can be a juggling act! 

Just for producing pure marketable silver your looks good!


----------



## Palladium

Tell us about the source materials? Are you using shot in the basket or bars? What is your filter material?


----------



## Lightspeed

Ralph,
Source material is Australian pre decimal scrap, mostly pre 1946 .925 coins. There has been a small quantity of post 1946 pre decimal scrap which is .500, also sterling scrap from jewellery, jewellers scrap also sterling flatware, old trophies etc.

The raw material has been HNO3 digested and cemented from copper, a small amount was through Sodium hydroxide process due to a chloride contamination early on in my HNO3 digestion efforts from contaminated glassware I think.

The cement has been reduced to shot by myself and is introduced to the anode basket, I have been using the Dacron wet vac bags as per Kadriver, but these are very expensive for me to get hold of here in Australia and are ex U.S.A.

All info has been derived as per my study the forum resource and from your own vids Ralph and Kadriver youtube vids which was inspiration and my resource until I found you both stashed here on the forum. Much further study from there on but the stainless cell as exemplified has been derived from your success Palladium.


----------



## g_axelsson

Nice crystals! I like the ones where you could really see the crystal structure and flat surfaces.

Yellow tinge to the electrolyte might be a result of a slight palladium contamination. It would follow silver through dissolving and cementing. You could clean that up with DMG if it becomes a problem. Here are two threads on that problem.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18929
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=19004

Göran


----------



## Lightspeed

just did a quick test on the electrolyte with stannous, got a yellow tint that changed to brownish. I need to make a new batch of stannous.

You are correct Ralph and Goran, I am familiar with early silver pieces carrying gold and pgm's but had not thought of testing with stannous, I forgot I even had it :roll: 

Although the electrolyte has been watered down I will make a new batch of stannous and re test, thanks for the tip on DMG I have read here on the forum that the PGM's are easily removed with it after HNO3 digestion. I have not noted slimes in the anode bag at this point but am less than 1 kilo into the shot at this stage. Thanks for the tip. 8)


----------



## Palladium

g_axelsson said:


> Yellow tinge to the electrolyte might be a result of a slight palladium contamination. It would follow silver through dissolving and cementing.
> 
> Göran



Yep! That's what i was thinking. That's why i was wondering about the source.


----------



## Palladium

Two of my youtube cell video's are private. Have you watched all 5?


----------



## Lightspeed

I am not a subscriber to your channel Ralph, do I need to be to see the others? I have seen every vid you have produced relative to silver that I have access to whether applicable to my intended procedure or not eg formate process etc. How do I access your private material? I would be very interested to further improve and cross reference to what I am doing at the moment. I also have the set of Lazersteves DVDs, I mostly have used them as a visual supplement for reinforcement of my existing knowledge but sadly does not cover the stainless cell. I do have a fair stack of Karat Au alloy and am kitted out for it, I will one day find the time to start on, for the time being Ag is my start point as the mistakes are more financially forgiving, and I would like to refine my process to reliability however I do find silver rewarding but at the same time complex due to the many stages involved, I have read many find Au much simpler. Regards B.


----------



## Palladium

.


----------



## g_axelsson

I just have two comments... :wink: 

Anyone that think they can refine without using gloves and not getting something onto you should work with silver for a while. It's revealing.

That was a really green electrolyte, looks like quite a bit of palladium dissolved in it. Pure copper and silver nitrate is a clear blue color without any hints of green in it.

Thanks for sharing. Don't think I have seen them before. I had to skip some parts so I might have missed something you said.I heard the mentioning of your reason to not use gloves, but I didn't hear anything about palladium contamination of the electrolyte. It's easy to test the finished silver for contamination, just dissolve it and look for any color. Copper blue, palladium yellow, and the dissolved silver could easily go into the next batch of electrolyte.

Göran


----------



## Lightspeed

Just made a fresh batch of stannous, tested the electrolyte again with a brown indicator for palladium. After harvesting the cell and restarting, I have kept current at 4.7 amps and 3 volts, I don't know exactly why but this second run has the crystal sticking to the sides of the cathode without tumbling down the sides to the bottom, I think this was due to the cathode being new making it more difficult for the crystal to stick under its own weight due to the polished surface. Just need to tackle my palladium issue now. Thanks so much for the replies, I am sure it is rather simple to the experienced, your wisdom and tips are invaluable, cheers Ralph for the link, I am going to try and find a cheaper resource for a filter. Regards B.


----------



## Palladium

Muslin cloth is dirt cheap!


----------



## snoman701

The actual filter bars cost $2.57 ea from anode products. High enough quality bags that I'd use them to store coins in. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## muhamed

I have question about silver cell. How much I get on the cathode if the anode is 300g 999 silver and 250g / l in the electrolyte


----------



## Palladium

Theoretically if the anode dissolves 300 grams of .999 silver then the cathode will deposit the same.

Here's some interesting reading for those who like research. :arrow:


----------



## kurtak

Hi Palladium

Very interesting read & your timing on posting it could not be better as I am now going to have to re-think my current plans

I see that this article relates more to a "winning" cell rather then a parting cell which results in the production of ammonia from a nitrate solution during the course of winning the metal back out of the nitrate solution

I just finished my first set up/running of my silver cell sense my recent move from Wisconsin to Oregon

Today I intend to cement the silver back out of the electrolyte which of course will live me with a copper nitrate solution 

Because of my recent move I no longer have access to cheap nitric which leaves me with a limited supply of nitric that I brought with me (something like about 12 gallons)

Soooo - I was planning on setting up a winning cell with the intent to win the copper out of the copper nitrate with the thought being that I could recover my nitric for re-use (instead of cementing the copper with iron & then dropping the iron with NaOH)

However (if I understand the article right) running the copper nitrate in a winning cell will actually cause the production of ammonia which is not a desired result 

so it looks like its back to cementing the copper out with iron  

Kurt


----------



## g_axelsson

If you read the article it seems like one of the key parts in nitrate reduction by electrolysis into ammonia is that it occurs on a silver surface. In the paper it says that they were unable to get any ammonia production when they were using stainless steel electrodes and that it probably was because the silver didn't form a smooth surface. Apparently the silver works in a catalytic way to form ammonia under certain conditions.

So it is plausible copper winning from a nitrate solution will produce nitric acid and not ammonia. Just check the pH and don't run the cell longer than necessary.

Göran


----------



## kurtak

Goran

Thanks for the reply & sorry for the delay in responding (been busy) 



> If you read the article it seems like one of the key parts in nitrate reduction by electrolysis into ammonia is that it occurs on a silver surface.




The real purpose of the paper was/is the concern of producing silver nitride during winning - silver nitride being an explosive compound of silver - also referred to as fulminating silver (which is different from silver fulminate - both of which are explosive)


The production of silver nitride is the result of the reduction of the nitrate to ammonia during the electrolysis when winning the (silver) metal from the electrolyte 



> In the paper it says that they were unable to get any ammonia production when they were using stainless steel electrodes and that it probably was because the silver didn't form a smooth surface.



I did read on page 16 of the paper where it talks about this - however - on page 31 (in the conclusion) when noting that reduction (of nitrate to ammonia) was not "observed" (in the experiments) on SS - it also makes note that - "the substrate is unimportant for observing nitrate reduction. The only requirement is that freshly deposited silver is required" 

So I am a bit confused - & again the paper is more focused on the production of silver nitride as a result of ammonia production

Because I am looking at winning copper - instead of winning silver I still have concerns because on page 3 it talks about as high as 88% production of ammonia when copper electrodes are used

So - even if I used an SS electrode (as cathode) would not ammonia production take place once copper is formed on the cathode ? (basically turning the cathode to a copper electrode) 

In other words I am not concerned about the production of silver nitride because I am not trying to win silver --- copper - to the best of my knowledge - does not form a (explosive) nitride --- its the production of ammonia when winning (copper) metal from a nitrate solution that I am concerned about


Maybe Lou, Deano, 4metals or some of the other real pros could chime in here about ammonia production as a result of trying to win metal from a nitrate electrolyte 


Kurt


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## Lightspeed

Hi All,
has anyone tried running crystal through the anode basket instead of shot? If you have, have you had any issues with your amperage? Does anyone else warm the electrolyte before running their cell?

I was thinking the higher surface area of the crystal would lend an easy amp max to top out my power supply at 5 amps, not getting even close eg: 2.1A @ 2.4V after 12 hrs run, electrolyte saturation of 580g into 3 L, same set up as I usually use for shot, same anode basket, same cathode bowl, same filter material.
I do not like the crystal made from lower amp than voltage it is too fine and dendritic in appearance, there is something amiss and I just cant seem to delineate it, it is the first time I have re-run crystal. As the crystal is the only real change logic points to this, thus my question.

I have replaced all electrical connections from the power supply to the cell, new alligator clips, new inline fuse and holder, and yes my soldering skills are more than up to scratch. I have now removed the electrolyte back into a beaker and pyroceram and currently heating to see if this changes cell parameters when added back to the cell.
I am just about all out of ideas, short of stripping the cell and turning the crystal back to shot, it is a step I had hoped to avoid.

Suggestions?

Edit: replaced electrolyte after warming, now at 3.12A @ 2.4V, it is winter here in Australia though is around 18 Celsius.

For our Aussie silver refiners: I have been running around for ages going to all sorts of material shops looking for (AKA) Muslin cloth, got plenty of strange looks from the female staff basically telling me I did not know what I was talking about, well it turns out here in Australia Muslin cloth is basically an open weave gauze I have never found unbleached. So it turns out the folks in the mighty U.S. of A. and what is called muslin over there is actually called CALICO over here in OZ, its a dirt cheap unbleached material perfect for your anode bags.


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## Palladium

Can you post some pictures of the whole setup?


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## nickvc

One thought most advise to add some copper to the electrolyte to aid crystal formation so if you’re running pure silver with only fine silver in the electrolyte that may be some of your problem.


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## Lightspeed

As regards Copper in the electrolyte, after warming the electrolyte I decided to add a bout 500ml from a previous cell run which I keep for first run crystal, just to add a touch of copper, I am not a fan of this despite many resources saying to add it. I am only new to silver cells so what the hell do I know anyway. It seems counter intuitive to me after going to the lengths of keeping everything surrounding my silver refining overly clean. The electrolyte that I originally made for this batch was water clear from first run crystal.
Warming the electrolyte seemed to make all the difference, after checking the parameters again after work all is well as it should be with a healthy warm bowl of crystal. I will be keeping that in mind for future reference, electrolyte temperature is critical to cell function in cold temps using low cell amps.

A few quick pics as requested Ralph. 
I know i am going to cop heaps of scrutiny over my setup, Its not super flash, my humble little cell, but I am constantly learning from its use. You will note the Teflon rod for stirring and pushing down the crystal in the basket, I am using some real cheap Perth Mint bullion rounds that I bought as scrap as anode starter bars for the time being. Polycarbonate top plate is not ideal but is functional and 8mm thick. Now that I know Muslin is actually Calico in Oz I will replace the filter soon, filter in place is Dacron. Note the mint green colour of the electrolyte from the small addition of copper contaminated electrolyte from first run crystal(this electrolyte is @ 146gm Ag per litre density). 3 cathode contacts fairly evenly spread.


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## Palladium

From what i can see i would guess your problem is anode surface area. You need more of the crystals *below* the surface of the liquid. As i'm looking at the pictures i can see that the crystals growing in the bowl make a line around the surface. Your crystals show that your liquid level is a good bit from the top. Your plexiglass is thick also. and if you look at your basket you'll notice that your filter cloth is curved at the bottom and only a small portion of the anode (crystals) are reaching further down into the solution. This tells me that when the basket is sit onto the platform that suspends it a very small portion of the materials are actually coming into contact with the solution. Fill your bowl up nearly to the rim. I know it makes handling it a pain to empty, but you can remove some of the solution to empty it by using a beaker to dip it out or decanting it with a hose. Besides it will evaporate down as the cell runs. Make sure your basket material is more flat to allow the crystals to set in the basket better. Use a thinner piece of plexiglass to cut down on the distance between the solution and the basket. Current density is causing your crystals to grow long and stringy instead of dense and compact. This is because of the anode surface area being relativity small in comparison to the cathode area. Not crystals, but when running shot this will lead to a lot of black powder in your basket. Some people get excited and think it is gold or pgm's. It's actually silver oxide. As the crystals grow on the cathode surface it gives the cathode surface many more times the area than just the flat surface of the bowl. This will lead to an increase in amperage and a reduction in voltage, if your anode surface can keep up with it. That is when your cell will really get to purring like a pussy cat!

I have 2 or 3 - 1 gallon cells ( 5 amp ) i play with out on the farm. In my unheated bld in the winter it averages in the 40's at day and mid to lower 20's sometimes at night. If your cell is operating at the right current density it will be making enough heat to keep the solution warm. I actually like the cold for my cells! Other than that your cell looks good and is set up right as far as i can tell. In a pure solution push that voltage up to about 5 volts in the beginning and let the current fall when it may ( usually around 3 amps ). As the crystals start to grow the voltage will start to fall and the current will rise. In my bowls on the farm by the time the bowl is about 3/4 of the way full my amperage is at 5 and my voltage is about 1.8.


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## Lightspeed

Thanks Palladium!!
I have on hand a few metres of American Muslin now to correct the anode contact area and rid the curved limited exposure brought about by too small sized filter to suit the basket. I have added electrolyte to bring up the contact area of the anode as well to within 15mm of bowl (cathode) fill limit.
I will rebate the polycarbonate sheet to give better depth and exposure of the anode.

As usual your observations are spot on Palladium. Thankyou for your critique to assist and correct where my experience plainly leaves me with nothing but trial and error.

Palladium: So due to lack of contaminants in the electrolyte and the feedstock anode I can push the voltage and easily hit max of 5A without worrying about co deposition in the crystal. It is logical, there really is not any other (copper) contamination source other than that which I have already introduced but maybe just me being cautious and conservative. Got a few things to work with now to get this cell "purrin". Thanks again for the pointers, I will report back when my icp spec assay is complete and a few bars are poured.

Kind regards
B.

a few pics of the cell since last nights pics.


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## Palladium

Yes! In the beginning your contaminate level is extremely low so no need to worry about the voltage being on the high side. The voltage will drop inline before your contaminate level rises to the point of disposition.


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## Palladium

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


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## Palladium

I wonder what that cats up to now! 
1 3/4 gallon!


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## Palladium




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## Palladium




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## FrugalRefiner

That's some interesting feedstock. Have you had it assayed? :lol: 

Dave


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## g_axelsson

I thought we agreed on there is no profit in refining cats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_zpdyBz3VM

Göran


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## philddreamer

Are you going to "incinerate" before you start processing it... :? :? :?

:mrgreen: 
Phil


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## Palladium

He's the brains of the operation!
He's also the inventor of the M.E.O.W.S. process!

Multiphase
Electrolysis
Of
Waste
Silver !!!!!


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## philddreamer

Precious "cat" indeed!!! No need to process! :mrgreen:


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