# Help for a noob--where to start



## rexmerdinus (Oct 20, 2011)

Greetings all! I've been a copper keeper and a silver stacker for a few years now, and I was thinking of getting into refining as well. Please excuse me if ask noob questions--I'm in the process of going through old posts on here, so I may wind up answering my own questions. I guess my biggest question is where should I start? I was figuring I'd look first into e-scrap stuff, or whatever I can find on Feebay. Is this approach economical, and which method should I use? What kind of startup costs am I looking at? I guess I'll stop there for now. Thanks everyone in advance for your knowledge!

Jason


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## element47 (Oct 20, 2011)

Sigh. We need a noob manifesto. 

Start by downloading Hoke and reading it several times. Search for author "palladium"...it's in his signature line. It is 369 pages. 

Download and print it out, 3-hole punch it and put into a FAT binder. 

Read it several more times. 

You have to decide what metal you wish to focus on. Silver? Gold? Platinum? 

You have to figure out where you are going to get your raw material. 

You have to figure out where you are going to get your chemicals.

You have to figure out where you are going to get your safety equipment. 

You have to figure where you are going to get your glassware. 

You have to decide whether this is a hobby, for fun, or if you wish the effort to be profitable. 

By the way, the acids and fumes, both of which can seriously injure you, meaning blind you or kill you, or people around you, or the finish on the car in your driveway, DO NOT CARE whether you are doing this for fun or for profit. The safety precautions are not optional. 

You have to decide whether you can get enough raw material to make refining worth it. *The OVERWHELMING majority of people can NOT get enough raw material to economically justify refining. *One of the LEAST fruitful sources of material is escrap, from computers. It takes palletloads of computers to generate meaningful amounts of PMs. 

You have to decide whether you have available to you the space to perform the various operations involved. That means, if separating escrap, for example, room to take apart 93 computers. What to do with the plastic. Where you can sell the copper and base metals. What to do with monitors and keyboards you will accumulate. 

You have to have some highly cogent idea of how you are going to treat and then dispose of your chemical wastes. 

*You have to acquire the determination to demand of yourself the requirement to know each and every step along the way from your raw material, which piece of glassware you will use, how you will treat your raw materials, whether you have the patience to let solutions settle for a day or two where they will remain undisturbed, whether you have the space and torch equipment to melt your output without setting your house or your cat on fire. * 

You have to be willing to go back to your informational and educational materials time after time after time, until you have a thorough understanding of all the elements involved. 

And if you mix 1 chemical before you have studied your materials less than about 4 months, you are probably moving too fast. The processes used in refining are well known and have been well known for many decades (Hoke book = 1928) if not hundreds of years. They have been used in hundreds of countries, some of which do not exist any more! You are not in a position to "discover" any new chemical processes. No, your job is to follow, to the letter, the processes and procedures already known. That includes some of the mathematics of figuring out solution strengths, concentrations, and material weights. 

If you're not prepared to embark on this road of fairly rigid procedure, focus on detail, and the idea that you have to assemble ALL the things you need before you start on step #1, then in 98% of cases you will be better off selling your materials to others. Which is perfectly valid, a lot easier, cleaner, less liability, safer, quicker, and in those same 98% of cases flat-out smarter to do. 

Anyone else have any other suggestions for the *NOOB MANIFESTO? *


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## rexmerdinus (Oct 20, 2011)

Well, when I started looking here, a noob manifesto of sorts was kinda what I was seeking. I thank you for the information, sir, and I appreciate the time you took to type it out. I've got the book and have begun reading, so that step is underway. I have a lot of research to do, and I look forward to learning from everyone here's experience. Thanks!

Jason


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## Claudie (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't think I would start buying any scrap from E-Bay. Many times, the scrap on there sells for more than any PM (Precious Metal) value you could expect to get back. Collect what you can find for free while you are learning. After you have experimented some, you will begin to get an idea of how much Gold or Silver is actually in these items. More often than not, it is considerably less than most people think.... :|


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## Palladium (Oct 20, 2011)

Try starting here Jason

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=796&p=114823&hilit=steve#p6873

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=5604


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## nickvc (Oct 21, 2011)

Excellent post Element47.
it may seem to many that we are trying to scare noobs off but in truth that post paints a very accurate picture of what exactly is required to achieve even a small amount of success.

Jason you read that and are still willing to tread the long path of learning, reading and studying needed to start refining, reckon you might make it. Welcome to the forum.


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## Harold_V (Oct 21, 2011)

nickvc said:


> Excellent post Element47.



Indeed it is! Every new reader should read and understand its contents. 

With your (Element47) permission, I'd like to add your comments to the Read forum. You will be given full credit. 

Harold


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## element47 (Oct 21, 2011)

An honor it would be, Harold! I always enjoy your posts. Thank you!

I wanted to have a spot where we could send newbies, a little more detailed than "read Hoke". Hence, the "Noob Manifesto". And by the way, that would include me. I have determined that under my current conditions, I CAN'T mix harsh chemicals. I CAN'T obtain sufficient raw materials to make the effort worth it. I HAVE determined that I COULD gather up computers and strip them down, but not in sufficient quantities to make any kind of money to speak of. The final straw was when I sold those half-dozen batches of gold-bearing chips for something like 80+% of their maximum potential gold yield. 

So I wanted to kind of run down the thought processes I went through that led me to conclude that it is entirely possible that there are very, very few people in the position of benefitting from the direct handling and processing of scrap metals to refine PMs out of them. 

I am continually amazed at the delusions folks get when they see a button of gold. 

After all, lots of folks go see a Michelangelo at a museum and they don't come way thinking "big deal, I could do that. Oh, that's worth $15 million? I could only be 1/1000th as good and my work would be worth $15,000, that's damn good for a few afternoons' work. In my back yard."


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## mikesmadness (Oct 21, 2011)

element47 said:


> Sigh. We need a noob manifesto.
> 
> Start by downloading Hoke and reading it several times. Search for author "palladium"...it's in his signature line. It is 369 pages.
> 
> ...



Actually, You answered more questions than I knew to ask! Thank you!


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## trashmaster (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi Element47...,, 

That has to be one of the best post that I have seen on this forum,, :lol: 

thank you


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## element47 (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks very much, I appreciate it, and I appreciate the wisdom and experience shared on this forum. Even though I myself do not refine, I have a certain amount of chemistry in my blood as my Dad was a chemist for 43 years (he made pharmaceuticals = drugs, at a major mfr) and I like precious metals, and I like investing in precious metals. I have gathered up silver over 45 years, starting in 1965 when I had the gals working the registers at my Jr. High School lunchroom sort out the silver coins for me to exchange at the end of the day. I began again buying silver in 2001 or so with the idea that I could not see how you could drag this stuff out of the ground, crush and refine and ingotize it and sell it for $5-$6. Meaning it was selling for below its cost of production. Then I started buying sterling silver forks and spoons when I could for below their value in 2003-2008. 2-3-10 forks at a time I accumulated hundreds of pounds of sterling flatware. Unhappy with the dollar yield sending them off to Midwest I was very likely about to embark upon a sterling-refining exercise. So somehow I wandered over here and found the forum.

I started doing various thought exercises how I could refine, then melt down the sterling, but a number of problems arose. One thing that really bugged me was how the simple act of merely touching these materials has so many embedded frictions in it, I calculated that buying sterling forks had at least 6 separate frictions embedded in it, and there seemed to be no way to avoid them. And they ALL worked against me, like a bunch of saboteurs sneakily working to scam me.

1: Although marked and legally mandated as 92.5% silver, sterling is more like 91%.
2: I had to pay freight to get the stuff here
3: Although I developed a spreadsheet that over time gave me the average weight for an average 7" fork (since ebay sellers did not list gram weights) and a 7-1/4" fork and a teaspoon and a salad fork, and I had hundreds of different styles (eg; Towle Candlelight, Gorham Stardust) recorded and weighed, I only had averages, and more than occasionally a very light set would show up that I had overpaid for. When silver started climbing over $10 the first time, the competition for ebay forks became absolutely vicious and it became impossible to buy sterling for less than say a buck below the implied spot content. And of course, anyone who actually wanted a "Gorham Stardust" fork would pay more than I would.
4: I had to pay to ship the stuff to the refiner
5: The refiner would inevitably "lose" 1% in the "pot". Big deal? Send in 3-4 kilos (which isn't really that much) and let me know. 
6: If I tried to send in sterling on a price rise, the refiner somehow figured out how to finish processing my goods on the exact half hour when silver made its low price in the week or ten days he had my goods. It was uncanny.

So I began to ponder refining silver myself. And then those frictions re-appeared, in different forms, but again, upon careful thought, they were quite unavoidable.

1: As soon as a sterling fork is melted, it isn't "self-assaying" any more, thus it is worth less because an assay is required to get the value out of it.
2: It costs money to buy the chemicals and the torches and fuel gases to get the sterling to a state of being unassayed, to deteriorate its value as-is.
2A: Oh, I considered using solar power to melt the sterling. Very problematical. As reflective as silver is, and as carefully as you have to aim solar collectors to really get the heat going, it's quite unavoidable that you will absolutely blast your eyes out getting the cone focused on the silver. Do this enough times and you are blind or have serious retina burns. Nope.
3: It costs money to buy the safety gear to process this stuff safely, and while it's not fearsomely expensive, it nevertheless has to be amortized over the amount of stuff you intend to process.
4: Nitrogen Dioxide scares the s**t out of me. Thank you very much.
5: And let's not forget that even if if you have a mere 1% fraud rate on ebay, how much does that whack your bottom line if it happens an a 6 fork = 9 ounce deal? Or if no fraud, what about a non-insured loss in the mail system? If you insure your incoming shipments, you have to insure ALL of them, and then your silver is what, 50-75 cents per ounce more expensive? 

And so, if I couldn't buy sterling forks for better than a buck under spot (and that took lots of searching time) and I couldn't buy the nitric for less than whatever and all the safety gear and glassware had to be bought or otherwise acquired, the question remained, could I do all this for basically a buck an ounce profit, and if so, how much silver would I have to process to make it worth it? And the answer was thousands and thousands of ounces. And that would require thousands of hours to find and buy and land. The bottom line was, *I could not see the end connecting back to the beginning.* And there are many, many endeavors in life that are like that. If I wanted silver, then it was cheaper and easier to just buy it in an assayed, transactable form than to overpay for sterling, overpay for chemicals and gear, deal with the wastes in a suburban, non-commercial environment, and to take the safety risks. Above all, there really could be nothing more blitheringly stupid (well, other than inhaling toxic fumes) than overpaying for sterling forks. Because then you are overpaying for a seriously undesirable form and having to put a lot of work into the game if your goal is a dumb .999 ingot that you can just buy. 

I'm grateful to the forum because reading about all this stuff and the pitfalls made it clear that it was an unfeasibility, and that without the forum, I would probably have a large pile of ruined sterling, a big chemical mess in the backyard, an oxyacetylene rig (usable for other things, of course) and a boatload of glassware and melting dishes and firebricks and chemicals and other gear that would end up in the garbage. IOW, I would be midway through an uneconomical processing exercise and if I just spent the money and time buying dumb silver rounds or bars (if that is what I wanted) I would be miles and miles ahead.


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## Harold_V (Oct 22, 2011)

element47 said:


> I wanted to have a spot where we could send newbies, a little more detailed than "read Hoke". Hence, the "Noob Manifesto".


Yep! I agree. I'll take it up with the other moderators. This has been an on again off again issue for some time now. It is discussed, but nothing comes from the discussion. Maybe this will help. 

Again, thanks for putting in words the very thing readers need to hear. 

Harold


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## HigginsMechanical (Nov 16, 2011)

element47 said:


> Sigh. We need a noob manifesto.
> 
> And if you mix 1 chemical before you have studied your materials less than about 4 months, you are probably moving too fast. The processes used in refining are well known and have been well known for many decades (Hoke book = 1928) if not hundreds of years. They have been used in hundreds of countries, some of which do not exist any more! You are not in a position to "discover" any new chemical processes. No, your job is to follow, to the letter, the processes and procedures already known. That includes some of the mathematics of figuring out solution strengths, concentrations, and material weights.
> 
> ...



*This is absolutely terrific advise.*

I've been studying now for a little over a month and have been gathering materials and equipment and I WILL NOT mix my first chemical until I thoroughly understand them, the related processes, safety issues and have all necessary safety gear (including a chemical fume hood in my warehouse for indoor inquarting during winter)

I might add a little of what I have been thinking and doing to boot:

First things first (Mission Statement, if you will)- 
It must provide an intellectual challenge, be fun and it must not only pay for itself but yield a profit. 
(stimulating hobby + profit = lots of fun)

I already run a heating, ventilation and air conditioning contracting business so I do have many advantages to begin this endeavor such as a fabrication shop, warehouse space, welding equipment, place of business with good frontage on a busy street and good math, estimating and business skills.

Plan the work and work the plan.....

Desired minimum NET margin: 25%. (This basically eliminates eBay, Ruby Lane, etc... although some good deals can be found but they're like finding a needle in a haystack- I do get a twisted sense of enjoyment watching people in a frenzy bid over spot price on eBay though.) 

MAIN Materials to focus on: gold from jewelry, silver from jewelry, coinage and silver antiques. I also collect US gold and silver coins.
Secondary materials to focus on: copper (making copper "business card" ingots from clean #1 scrap)

Source of materials: Individual sellers, estate sales, garage sales, flea markets and out-of-the-way antique stores. Also thrift stores (become acquainted with the managers!)

How will I attract individual sellers?: Word of mouth, web site with good search engine optimization (in progress), business cards (in progress) to post everywhere I can- grocery store bulletin boards, etc., vertical banner in front of my building and window sign (in progress) One cannot just start an enterprise and "hope" people will come. This is not "Field of Dreams" promote, promote, promote.

Through word of mouth, just 3 days ago, I bought 16.65 grams of 14k gold and 19.91 grams of silver for $375.00 and the seller was thrilled. The local jewelry store offered her $275.00. I got this lead through a friend who collects costume jewelry. I watch out for the pieces she likes for her and she looks for leads for me.

Hoke's book: check.
Read Hoke's book: check.
(Besides putting in a binder, highlight sections and add page tabs for notes)

Materials, tools, chemicals: in progress... many, many good suggestions throughout this forum on where to get things.

So far, I have bought from:

http://www.chemistrystore.com (borax and sodium metabisulfite)
http://www.avogadro-lab-supply.com (labware, glassware)
http://www.stuller.com (tools- I opened a wholesale account)
http://www.scalenet.com (really good deal on a Sartorius 600g scale with .001g readout)
ebay (misc supplies and tools)
http://www.airgas.com (gasses, safety equipment- I have a wholesale account)

Still looking for best places to buy nitric acid, hydrochloric acid, etc... Would really like to find a local vendor to save on shipping. (Chicago area)

So, I am gaining knowledge, gathering materials, finding scrap and working on ways to promote the hobby. 

While I am working on ways to find and create, I will also start ways of selling the finished goods, to keep funding the hobby, in much the same fashion... website, word of mouth, auctions, etc


Much thanks to everyone here who has contributed. I don't have a lot to offer in return, but- If you ever need any heating, ventilation, controls, motors, or electrical supplies... My offer stands to get them to you for my wholesale cost with no markup.

Thanks and have a great day,

Don


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## butcher (Nov 16, 2011)

HigginsMechanical,
Save some of those HVAC controls, many contact switches have silver contacts; if you do not want them send them my way.

Something to consider, all that word of mouth can cause you to get robbed, or may put you or your family in danger, your business or home could begin to be in danger. think security even though you may not have much gold, if a druggie or crook thinks you do it could be dangerous.

Starting out I would keep cost down until you get going, not buying something until you are sure you need it, much lab glass can be replaced with household kitchenware, bought for quarters at the second hand stores, then add lab glass later as needed. Many times we can get chemicals sold as household used items from hardware stores grocery store pool supplies.
Many things you can easily build yourself, like furnaces, ball mills and so on, also work on the testing skills if you are buying, (bob) pawn brokers guide, touching metals, and other materials and instructions on the forum will help here.

element47, I like the "Noob Manifesto".


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## HigginsMechanical (Nov 17, 2011)

butcher said:


> HigginsMechanical,
> Save some of those HVAC controls, many contact switches have silver contacts; if you do not want them send them my way.
> 
> Something to consider, all that word of mouth can cause you to get robbed, or may put you or your family in danger, your business or home could begin to be in danger. think security even though you may not have much gold, if a druggie or crook thinks you do it could be dangerous.
> ...




Butcher,

I never even thought to think whether furnace and air conditioning printed circuit boards and controls system circuit boards might have any gold or precious metals. I shudder to think how many boards and controls we've thrown away over the past 35 years. I would be happy to start saving them as well as contactors and relays if you are interested in them. Seems like too much work for the return and its outside of what I'd like to do.

I've thought about the security aspect as well, forgot to mention it. We have a very good alarm system with panic buttons and remote monitoring. The police here in the suburbs are here literally within 2 minutes. (We found out by accident a couple of times. lol) I have 2 large safes but I do not plan on storing metals or valuables on site. Signs to this effect will be posted inside as well as in the window. I will also install a video camera and store the video files in a "cloud" on line.

As far as buying from individuals, they will have to sign a receipt and provide personal info, as well as agreeing to a written statement of ownership, similar to a pawn ticket, and I will NOT buy stolen goods nor will I buy if there is even a wiff that a person is dishonest or untrustworthy. Dealing with dishonest people or thieves again and again would only invite the kind of trouble you talk about, not to mention being a source of perpetuating bad things in the world...

As far as buying the materials and such, I always like to do things right. But I am settling for such things as a thrift shop crock pot for pickling as soon as I find the right one. I am also buying used vintage equipment where I can as well- I can't stand cheap made overseas stuff. The lab glass I wanted to buy to help measuring correct amounts as I continue to get comfortable with the chemicals- same with the good weighing scale. 

I read the pawnbroker guide, it was pretty interesting and full of common sense.

Thanks for your comments!

Don


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## nickvc (Nov 17, 2011)

If you want my opinion I would certainly keep the material on site the less movement the less chance to be robbed and I certainly wouldn't take it home.
Up your security and get good insurance cover and leave it where it is been refined, even build a unit within a unit with extra security and heavy walled protection and bars across any opening, timed opening and closing agreed with your alarm company is also worth considering so that any out of hours opening will trigger a response, if possible have 2 keys on different people to allow access. I think you will find that the insurance company will also insist on various things to allow cover, it's an expense but long term it's peace of mind.


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## HigginsMechanical (Nov 18, 2011)

nickvc said:


> If you want my opinion I would certainly keep the material on site the less movement the less chance to be robbed and I certainly wouldn't take it home.
> Up your security and get good insurance cover and leave it where it is been refined, even build a unit within a unit with extra security and heavy walled protection and bars across any opening, timed opening and closing agreed with your alarm company is also worth considering so that any out of hours opening will trigger a response, if possible have 2 keys on different people to allow access. I think you will find that the insurance company will also insist on various things to allow cover, it's an expense but long term it's peace of mind.




Well said and food for thinkun!

Don


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