# Here’s an Idea!!! What do you guy’s think?



## tom341 (Jul 1, 2007)

I have an iShor system and I started to melt pins into ingots but the draw back to that idea is that my oven is an Electric Paragon oven and I burned out the coils the first day when some of the base metals have a boiling Temp much lower than where gold and copper melt at thereby spattering inside the oven and on the heating elements thus burning them out. I am thinking that I would be better off building Propane fired oven and trying it again and then use the iShor to REFINE the gold in one step. By the way I have owned this iShor system for moor than a year and never used it. I think it is about time I started using it. And melting the pins and gold plated material into one clump of ingot metal and letting the iShor system do the work. Is this a good line of thinking or not?THX...<*\\\><...TOM? :?


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Jul 1, 2007)

I don't own an iShor system but I know a reseller for it and am familiar with the system. Based on my understanding of it I have often recommended it to use for refining scrap Karat gold, i.e. Jewelery. I think it is very economical for items with a high gold content.

Your proposed method of first melting the pins is questionable. First you have the extra work and expense of melting the scrap. If you were to melt the scrap into an ingot, my quess is that treating it like copper for electrorefining would be good. Your gold and any PGM's would be the by-production of copper refining.

The forum offers you several other good ways to deal with gold recovery from pins. There's HCL in a crock pot, HCL-H2O2, HCL-Chlorox and Reverse electroplating, etc. Check out the various systems here on the forum to see which ones apply best to your sitiuation.


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## Noxx (Jul 1, 2007)

By melting your stuff, you're reducing a lot the surface contact of the acids. It will take a LOT more time to dissolve it. 

But building a propane furnace for melting your final gold is a very good idea. I'm currently looking for plans.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Jul 1, 2007)

For the past 10+ years I've recommend to any and to all that would seek to recover scrap gold to get a copy (2nd ed.) of the Ammen book, "The Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals". There are plenty of good furnace plans in the rear of the book. He was also a great metallurgist.


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## tom341 (Jul 1, 2007)

Hello Nobel Metals (Steve S)

It’s good to here from the first original Crock pot recovery man on pin recovery. Gldman on E-bay (tom S) was telling me this melting scrap into ingots and then refining through electrolyses using the iShore system is safe to do and since the system is made to do karat jewelry that to best use it I should melt the scrap into ingots and the system will take the gold into solution and drop a lot of copper and other metals as a solid than take the electrolyte and drop the gold out of solution with the iShor order free precipitant leaving me with 99.995% gold. The good thing about this line of thinking is that no Nitric or A/R dangers of fumes. Surface area is not a factor due to the fact that iShor system is made to break down heavy karat gold jewelry taking gold into solution and dropping out the heavy base metals into an anode Pouch. From what I understand the solution can be used over and over again until the electrolytic salts are used up about 6 times before changing out with new fresh electrolyte. The Porcelain cup is an ion barrier keeping the gold contained inside the cup and not allowing the gold to plate to the graphite cathode outside the cup protruding into the larger electrolytic bath. My problem has been melting the scrap because it spatters onto my oven elements and burns them out so to remedy this problem I need to either cover the oven crucible or build a gas fired kiln to melt the scrap into ingots. Solder an anode wire to the ingot and cover the solder and copper bare wire with silicone and dry with a heat gun…THX...GUYS...<*\\\><..TOM….. OH by the way Steve I did but the book 2nd edition by C.W. Ammen and WOW what good info.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the credit regarding the crockpot method, its looks to be very popular now.

I wonder if there would be a way to compress the pins, sorta like "sintering". You would heat the pins up and put them in a metal die ( a cylindrical depression in a block of steel), and then hammer them with a ram to compress them into a semi-solid block? the bottom of the depression would have a removable plug (from the bottom), that would allow you to push the compacted pins thru the block after the ramming operation. Somewhat like a trash compactor. Or it would be like how a blacksmith can hammer weld metal together.

Steve


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## tom341 (Jul 1, 2007)

Hello steve N/M

Sounds like a good idea compressing the metals. All I am trying to do is have continuity through the entire block of pins WOW great idea. ..THX...<*\\\><...TOM Pueblo Colorado


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## Harold_V (Jul 1, 2007)

There is absolutely NOTHING to be gained by melting pins-----nothing!

Fact is, you're creating more work for yourself, adding cost to the operation of recovering the values, with no benefit, and you're complicating what should be a straight forward process. The only exception to that would be if you use the pins as added metal for inquartation. 

Here's the huge negative aspect to melting anything that has low gold content, and that includes gold filled objects. 

When you dissolve such items after melting, the gold is liberated as fine powder, even as fine as colloidal gold. It's very difficult to gather once it's so finely divided-----all for nothing. The base metal will dissolve without melting. 

If you choose not to strip pins, dissolve the base metals with nitric, or the procedure of your choosing, but don't disturb them any more than is necessary. By leaving the plated skin intact, even though you get some crumbling, the particles are far larger than colloidal or finely divided particles that come from melting, and are much easier to deal with. 

These are things that will become evident to you as you progress.

Harold


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## tom341 (Jul 3, 2007)

Thanks Harold?

These pins are mil-spec and have a good amount of gold on them. As far as adding moor expense onto the operation it is only when people like me have to pay for that expensive, and hard to get Nitric Acid. I am looking for a process that I can get away from the dangers of Nitric, and A/R toxic fumes. You talk about making the process to expensive well have you priced Nitric acid lately it can coast in excess of over a $100.00 a Gallon and melting pins to retrieve the gold in the iShore system not only retrieves the gold but refines it at the same time makes a lot moor since to me. The cost of melting pins could not be moor than a couple of dollars as apposed to the high price of Nitric acid. I honor your opinion but this is a totally new school process, and you are thinking old school Nitric, and A/R. I know you most likely think the iShor system is old school technology but it is a totally new way of refining. It was built to do karat jewelry and I am simply trying to see if I can incorporate electronic scrap into that technology. I know it sounds like you may have rubbed me the wrong way but I do honor your opinion. I just feel a little belittled and I don’t think you understood what I was getting at. ..THX..<*\\\><..TOM


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## aflacglobal (Jul 3, 2007)

I just happened to run across this one. Harold is correct in all aspects.
The most economical way would most likely be steve's reverse stripping cell. Whole set up including drain opener probaly less than $100.00. If you think about it, new school came about because of old school Fellows like harold who have been there and done that. Their is not a substitute for experience. But if you want to try, Hey i have some crazy ideas myself sometimes. 8) 

Harold you can be my wing man anyday, lol :wink:


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## jimdoc (Jul 3, 2007)

Tom,
Harold is just giving his opinion, not trying to belittle you.
I don't think there is anyone here looking to belittle anyone.
He is one to listen to when you ask for advise, for my bet
would be on his advise being correct. He is just trying to
save you from wasting your time with something that won't
work. If you prove him wrong after experimenting, so be it.
Expensive nitric is a problem for most of us, but you can
use the crockpot method on pins, so you don't need it
until you get to the final refining step. 
If you want to mess with melting still check out this link;
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/
And this one with the guests gallery of furnaces, you should 
be able to get an idea how to build a propane furnace from there;
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/gallery.html
I like the Martin Catt's furnace built with fire bricks, I am going
to try that one. I also have Lionel's kit, that I just need
to get the refractory for. 
Jim


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 3, 2007)

I'm afraid I have to agree with Harold but, I also understand tom341's plight and what he's trying to do. 

Dissolving all the copper or both the copper and gold may be great, when you're just playing around but, when running large amounts, it will always lose money. Besides using tons of chemicals, you generate tons of waste. Also, you convert valuable copper metal to waste.

There are 3 ways to chemically approach gold plated copper scrap. You can either (1) Dissolve everything (2) Dissolve only the copper (3) Dissolve only the gold. The pros, unless they use cyanide, simply melt everything and ship the bars to a copper smelter

By far, (3) above is the very best choice. The sulfuric stripper will only strip gold but, you have to make electrical contact. The very best non-electrolytic system for stripping gold was cyanide but, the EPA virtually eliminated this wonderful and safe (believe it or not) chemical.

If I still had a lab, I would put a lot of effort experimenting with new non-electrolytic systems that would dissolve the gold and not the copper. There are certain chemicals that will inhibit the attack on copper and other metals. Maybe one of these would work for copper, yet will allow the gold to be dissolved.. I just googled for copper inhibitors in HCl solutions and the name benzotriazole came up often. I think I would start there. I have never used this chemical but, it seems to be cheap, fairly safe, widely used, and it doesn't take much. I would start at about 1 gram per liter. I would probably try the HCl-bleach formula first. I even saw it on eBay, but the quantities were small and the prices were high - typical eBay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Benzotriazole-100-Grams_W0QQitemZ7616116436QQihZ017QQcategoryZ29983QQcmdZViewItem


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## tom341 (Jul 3, 2007)

Hello All

I don’t have a problem with anyone on this forum. I like all the guys here. I just stated I felt somewhat talked down to. We are all here to learn and Harold is most likely one of the highest assets on this forum and I as well as all the people here value Harold’s experience. Maybe we just need to know that Harold’s not very diplomatic and may step on some toes getting his point across. My point is that I strongly disagree, and that being said lets let it go and move on. This forum is not for taking sides for or against anyone. ..THX...<*\\\><...TOM


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## Harold_V (Jul 3, 2007)

Thanks, guys. My post really didn't need defense------but I'm grateful for those of you that understand what I had to say. 

Tom asked for an opinion and I gave mine, and with guidance to avoid creating a nightmare. Some folks won't learn anything without making the mistakes. Can't help but think that Tom is one of them. In the future I'll refrain from giving him any advice or guidance. You can now rest easy, Tom. I refuse to spend my time for those that don't want to benefit from mistakes I've made. 

Tom, you need to learn that an idea may not be a good one, and no one is trying to belittle you----certainly I was not. I adamantly suggested that melting your pins is a mistake------and it is. If you're looking for someone to play along with you and support you when your idea isn't a good one, you've certainly come to the wrong place. 

GSP-------you brought forth something that was really cool! The waste issue. I'm still stinging, after more than 11 years, from the two 55 gallon drums of copper I dumped---especially when I think of the value of copper today. It makes no sense to convert valuable assets to junk when there are ways to avoid doing so, with the added benefit of eliminating unwanted and unneeded operations. 

Early in my learning curve I, too, had a great idea. I wanted to use a sulfuric cell (a copper cell, not a gold stripping cell) to part gold from base metals, in spite of already having read that it doesn't work. "For me, it will! I'm clever!" says I. The hoops I jumped through, only go to my lab one fine morning to find two gallons of sulfuric acid and copper sulfate on the floor, and my porcelain cell split in half. That was a lesson I won't soon forget. From that experience I learned to listen to those with experience, and to quit trying to re-invent the wheel, which had already been proven to be sufficiently round. 

Unless your objective is research, quit being clever and get on with extracting gold by known and proven methods. Steve has posted so many variations of accepted practice here that surely one of them will fit the needs of anyone. 

One thing each of you should get straight in your head is the difference between recovering gold, and purifying it. You can rarely accomplish both of them in one operation-----and if you manage to do so, your results will be, at very best, suspect. But then, my objective was excellence. I wanted nice, clean, fresh oats. Not oats that had been run through the horse.  That didn't make my objective right or wrong, and I realize that each individual has his/her own .

Harold


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Jul 3, 2007)

Amen

Ammen

Amen


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## Noxx (Jul 3, 2007)

Lol :lol:


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## aflacglobal (Jul 3, 2007)

You will have to excuse harold. That's Just the way he comes over. He a no non-sense guy. I like that. He is just the type to not beat around the bush. :lol: I bet working for you would have been a blast harold. I bet you don't do things wrong but once with him.

He is retired now so he is devoting his time and knowledge to help benefit all of us involved. Like me some times , i don't always have the time to explain things in laymens terms , So i just throw it at you . Some people take it wrong when i do that. I don't mean any harm. It's just sometimes i'm busy or something and i just pop it off.

Me ? I'm not going to re-invent that wheel, I'm just going to make it go faster. lol :wink: 

Aflac :!:


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## Harold_V (Jul 4, 2007)

aflacglobal said:


> You will have to excuse harold. That's Just the way he comes over. He a no non-sense guy. I like that. He is just the type to not beat around the bush. :lol: I bet working for you would have been a blast harold. I bet you don't do things wrong but once with him.



I don't suffer fools gladly, you can believe that! 

Working for me would likely have been anyone's worst nightmare, and I offer no apologies. I've always been driven by perfectionism, a quality I wear with pride, even though it makes me a less than fun person to know. I have no intentions of changing, nor do I have a desire. I do not appreciate slackers and deadbeats, and I'm not thrilled to converse with clever people that don't have a clue, yet think they do. Not implying anyone here fits that description, just trying to help you understand the crotchety curmudgeon on the other end of the screen. 

I'm here to help-----and I'll help my way------the only way I have to offer. Those that are offended can ignore my posts, or if enough of you find me offensive, I'll gladly stop posting. I have little to gain from being here and can spend my time in far more productive ways, at least where my personal interests are concerned. 

I received a very nice private message from Tom. I'm sure we understand one another now----I certainly don't have any heartburn over the issue, and I think Tom's learning to not take my comments as a personal affront. When they're so intended, be they directed towards him, or anyone else, rest assured, I'll make that VERY clear. Aflac hit the nail right on the head. I'm very direct. 

Harold


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