# security



## glondor (Dec 24, 2010)

I know that many of you here have been dealing in gold for a long time. Have any of you had any concerns about security in your operation? What measures should be observed in your refining space? any karat scrap dealers want to chime in on precautions to take for your deals? How do you do security for your operation?


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## butcher (Dec 24, 2010)

well it is just a hobbie for me but I am alway's armed, and yes alway's loaded.
another I watch my mouth. my gold gets buried, a metal detector would do no good too much scrap metal on my property.


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## Oz (Dec 24, 2010)

Hey Butcher, maybe you could get a safe to keep empty. It would give them something to waste their time on.


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## jimdoc (Dec 24, 2010)

Oz said:


> Hey Butcher, maybe you could get a safe to keep empty. It would give them something to waste their time on.



You don't keep it empty,you load it with some lead bars painted gold.Or at least a bunch of bricks so they get a hernia.I remember reading a story about a safe stolen from a church.The thieves rented torches to open it,that is how they got caught.There was one penny in the safe,as close to empty as you can get.

Everybody able to get a concealed carry permit should do so.

Jim


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## Claudie (Dec 25, 2010)

jimdoc said:


> Oz said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Butcher, maybe you could get a safe to keep empty. It would give them something to waste their time on.
> ...




I agree with the carry permit. In Iowa they have changed the law beginning on January 01, 2011, the weapons aren't required to be concealed anymore. If people see it, they may be less likely to attempt stealing anything from you.


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## jimdoc (Dec 25, 2010)

I prefer concealed,I have surprised quite a few people.If they knew I was carrying they may have shot me.

If they see you have a gun they may come in shooting.

Jim


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## Oz (Dec 25, 2010)

I have carried a firearm for many jobs since I was a kid (18). These days I am armed 24/7.

Some things for people to consider. I have had many people over the years ask me to teach them to shoot because they wanted a gun for self defense. I always ask them to consider the below first, then get back to me in 2 weeks.

1). Under what circumstances do they “personally” feel it is justifiable to shoot someone?
2). Recognize that the law will not always agree with #1. Will they modify their actions to comply with the law, or are there certain circumstances they would disregard it and suffer the legal consequences? They must know in advance of a situation what their response will be.
3). How would they feel if they took someones life? Would they be able to live with it?

If after considering the above in great detail, they still felt they wanted a gun for self defense, I would teach them how to shoot and handle guns for that purpose. Only maybe 1 out of 10 returned to learn. 

I am a big fan of the right to bear arms in self defense. But everyone should be able to answer these questions completely with no second thoughts before they pick up a gun in self defense or carry a sidearm. Shooting someone or getting shot is not like on television. You will never be the same if you ever deal with this, no matter which end of the barrel you are on.

Some people are better off suffering the consequences of not having a gun than having one.


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## glondor (Dec 25, 2010)

So being armed is a big one. Last option, but how about other more subtle measures. If you were to go to a gold buying party, to buy of course. What would you do for security? It is very difficult to get a carry permit here in Canada.I lived in Va for a long while. Me and the wife were always armed. Never here in Canada tho. Not much need, Unless you are a target, like a gold buyer.


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## jimdoc (Dec 25, 2010)

glondor said:


> If you were to go to a gold buying party, to buy of course. What would you do for security?


Thats a tough one,you would be in someone else's property,and not knowing who might be looking to rob you.Probably not being alone would be a good option,if you can bring someone else.When things get rougher,and I am pretty sure they will,you will really have to watch your back when buying gold.

Jim


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## Oz (Dec 25, 2010)

With a gold party you are advertizing ahead of time where and when there will be a good quantity of gold. Typically you will be in a place unfamiliar to you as well as the majority of the people new to you as well. You can pay by check, but many may assume you have cash. You can choose to not carry a gun, but most will assume you have one so they will be sure to have theirs if they mean you harm. 

For gold parties, short of a gun, there is safety in numbers. Bring some big strapping guys.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 25, 2010)

I like my guns, but have no reason to carry one on a full time basis. If you have a case of diareah of the moth and like to bragg it should be a concern of your's what you tell people and where you tell them. If you are cautious about what you say and where you say it you should not raise any suspicion. Of course I am a small guy 5'3 110 lbs and when ever I have problems with someone I stand my ground and they have always backed down. Your posture and attitude towards somone most of the time is all it takes. And I have had some big guys try to intimadate me in the past, once they learn you don't scare they usually think twice. Chance favors the prepared know your surroundings and allways consider what you are going to do if something happens and the options you will take. But always remember you can run across that one person that goes aginst the odds.


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## glondor (Dec 25, 2010)

Good advice all Thanks. So it seems many of you have been involved with an attempted robbery? I guess choosing a public location could be an asset or a liability. A proper office with electric locks and security glass and cameras would be the best bet i guess, tho it would be costly. Just turning ideas over..


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## MiltonFu (Dec 25, 2010)

Gold parties are recipes for trouble. Blanket advertisements asking people to congregate in one place with gold and cash is not the best of ideas. And its not likely to get any better if the prices of precious metals continue to climb. With rising unemployment etc, people will get desperate.
I remember when copper touched $4.00 previously, copper pipes from buildings were being ripped out and sold to scrap yards, out of desperation and necessity in some cases.
Generally people keep their cash and precious metals in secure locations ( vaults etc). I believe the exchange of precious metal for cash/check should be confined to confidential and private transactions.
Notice the reference to guns in the majority of this thread.


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## butcher (Dec 25, 2010)

Invite a cop to your gold party ask him to be armed, I agree with both Barren and Oz, both have stated some very important details, the last thing you want to do is kill someone, and maybe the gold would not be worth it. but you Life or the life of your family could just be another story.
barren is correct, man is like animals, a big bear can be afraid of a small dog, size makes no difference.

some drug addicts, or certain people will not care if you stand your ground or you give them your gold, these crazy's may just kill and rape for sport.

being aware of your enviroment is always important, do not get yourself into situations or certain places, I feel most people are robbed by someone they know or someone who is an associate of someone you know, watching what kind of Rif Raf you associate with is a good saftey precaution, telling everyone you refine gold or advertising it can also bring trouble, even if you do not have much gold it makes no difference, crooks can be like miners (they think the gold is bigger than it is) and crooks may think they will strike it rich at your expence. 

(most miners are honest hard working people who dream of striking it rich with their hard work, but usually broke though they spent too much hard earned money and time trying to strike it rich).

Locks may stop honest people, and slow down the dishonest. and camera or calling the police may help to find the robber(BUT).


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## dub8 (Dec 25, 2010)

Oz said:


> I have carried a firearm for many jobs since I was a kid (18). These days I am armed 24/7.
> 
> Some things for people to consider. I have had many people over the years ask me to teach them to shoot because they wanted a gun for self defense. I always ask them to consider the below first, then get back to me in 2 weeks.
> 
> ...


if my life was in danger i wouldnt think twice about taking anothers life


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 25, 2010)

dub8 said:


> Oz said:
> 
> 
> > I have carried a firearm for many jobs since I was a kid (18). These days I am armed 24/7.
> ...



Having a weapon at your disposal 24/7 gives you a false sense of security. I would not hesitate a second to defend what I have or my family. And have had to do it in the past. And I would not blink if the need arises to use deadly force. And would not loose a seconds sleep if I had to take a life to defend my family. But make sure you can justify what you are doing. Is a car, a bar of gold or your wallet worth another persons life? They are material things that can be replaced and in my eyes are not worth another persons life or mine. My life my family or my friends life are a diffrent story they can not be replaced and I will defend them to the fullest of my ability with no hesitation. Pulling the trigger is the last option when there are not others.

IMHO this thread should be locked as it serves no purpose in refining other than giving oponions.


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## Oz (Dec 27, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> IMHO this thread should be locked as it serves no purpose in refining other than giving oponions.


Well Barren, I respect your opinion that this discussion serves no purpose in refining. As a line item I would have to agree with that statement. However at the same time I am of the opinion that the subject of security is very hard to omit from refining. I would think that having it under the category of safety is better than some other category such as chat. After all, proper handling and disposal of wastes is a safety issue, yet serves no purpose directly in the refining of precious metals. It is however necessary to consider what level of caution must be exercised in the safe and legal handling of these wastes, that will be very different depending on your operation.

Perhaps some should read the OP's original question in order to understand my reply.

We have a rather diversified membership here, all with different types or levels of involvement with precious metals. Depending on the materials they handle, how they are processed or not, and how they are bought and sold, will largely determine what security measures might need to be considered. 

Before I go further I should say that I am a small operator in refining, but I pay my bills with it. Having said that, I personally know small operators in this business that have had to deal with home invasion by a group of armed men, those that have been on the bad end of an armed robbery when buying or selling to/from private individuals, and others that have had their facilities broken into and vandalized as well as robbed. 

Talking about different business models for a moment. 

Probably the lowest level of concern would be someone buying and then reselling electronic scrap. There is threat of theft, but this type of material is not a primary target. Mainly because it is bulky and is not very liquid as far as getting a cash payment for it unless the thief is already knowledgeable and engaged in this business. 

The next level would be your electronic scrap buyer that sells the bulk of their material as is, but high-grades it by cherry picking the ram, cpus, and fingers. If they then refine the high-graded items they will have on hand refined precious metals that are compact and relatively easy to liquidate for cash, thus more prone to being a theft target. 

Then you have the small scale (no brick and mortar retail location) scrap karat gold and sterling buyer. This is very hard to do without advertizing what you do and how to find you. It is possibly the hardest level to stay safe and secure at, as a small level buyer. Even if you can get all of your customers to accept payment by check, others may assume you must have a fair quantity of cash on your person. Despite the cash detail, you are still leaving with a substantial compact value in gold or silver scrap that is easily liquidated by a thief for cash. 

Once you move beyond that level you start to have the budget (due to volume) to have a brick and mortar establishment with electric buzzers and locks for entry such as most pawn shops these days. Beyond that, depending on location an armed full-time security staff may be hired to walk the floor (I have been in pawn shops that always have 1 or 2 very visibly armed employees who's sole job is to walk the floor. At this level and more commonly above it, most do not wish to comment publicly as to what steps they have taken with security, as it could compromise the security they have in place.

There are a few reasons why this became a such a long post on my part. First is that we are a forum that is predominately made up of people that are new to dealing with precious metals. As such they need to think about what level of involvement they wish to engage in and the different levels of risk that they may encounter as to theft and personal safety, not to mention the safety and security of their families if they do this from their home (as the majority here do). 

Perhaps my greatest fear (the new home refiner) is the guy/gal that has become perhaps jaded by gold and riches in a bad economy. Only wishing to make a supplemental or replacement primary income to care for their family, but they have not given due thought to the unintended risks to those same family members they wish to support and protect. 

Now Barren has made a very valid point that some may go out and buy a gun to carry and feel a false sense of security. To give a bit of perspective on this I have been shot at more times than I like to remember but only hit once (high strung and nervous people are terrible marksmen). Remember that fact, and take into consideration your temperament and composure under stress before you consider carrying a gun. I have also had several occasions that the law would have said beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had just cause to use lethal force, yet I have always managed to avoid doing so. Carrying a gun does more harm than good for a fair percentage of the population if they are not of the right mindset, temperament, and background. So part of the reason I feel this is an important topic is that people need to think about what risks they are willing to take, and understand what options they have open to them “other” than guns.

Security considerations for most here is wholly dependent upon what contact they are willing to have with the public while involved with precious metals. Many upon reflection and thought may wish to limit that contact.

“I” (one mans opinion) think that it is in the interest of the general forum membership that there is a place to discuss their safety concerns as long as it relates to refining, personal safety from theft and injury included. I cannot see how someone can deal in precious metal scrap or refined metals yet never have had the occasion where they felt the need to consider security on some level. Even base metal scrap yards are considering these things and taking action in this economy. In fact I would propose to Noxx that if there is sufficient interest in this topic of conversation that perhaps a separate category should be created on the forum that deals with “security” in working in this business verses the “safety” aspects from a chemical standpoint alone. There are many ways one can do business as usual with precious metals, yet limit their exposure to risk. I would enjoy hearing from others how they have addressed these concerns. 

In regards to the request that this thread be locked. I had at first hesitated to further reply to this thread at all, let alone in my typical fashion, as I found myself with a conflict of interests since I have been made a moderator recently. For that reason I gave the subject further thought than typical of me before saying another word. After some consideration I felt it would be disingenuous of me to alter my posting behavior considering my comment “Do not expect any differences from me, I am still the same guy. The only difference is an extra set of eyes that can address gross misconduct or spam before it has a chance to become an unneeded distraction”. Read here if you wish the context of my comments http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=8673

Anyone that has been here for awhile knows that I am prone to long posts like this if I feel strongly enough about something. In order to maintain my ability to speak my mind from a personal viewpoint I will state clearly that if even one other moderator feels that this topic is not in keeping with the forum's purpose and interests, whether said publicly or privately to me, I will personally lock this thread deleting this post of mine in the process.

In closing I think that most here have had thoughts of security to some degree at one time or another. To those here that have no concerns as to security, there is no harm in letting those that do wish to discuss these issues to do so. There may be some here that wish to hear suggestions from others that will limit their exposure to unneeded risk. I see no harm in allowing it without your participation if you are uninterested.


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## nickvc (Dec 27, 2010)

I find this thread interesting but can only offer views from a country where the option to carry weapons is not available.
When I refined full time I did so within a fully secured building with barred windows, steel reinforced doors,electronic entry systems,cameras and monitored alarms with police response at all times.
While I may not access to guns unfortunately the criminals do and as stated by Oz we have a compact valuable product on hand, this still applies now to myself as now I'm a retailer who needs access for the public to my shop and to be able to display my goods in the windows and cases within the shop. My security is still very much the same and is basically dictated by the insurance companies with shutters, reinforced glass,cameras with 24 hour recording and monitored alarms plus huge safes for storage overnight.
We can only go so far as far as security goes before it becomes too intrusive and stops us living a fairly normal life. Take precautions, be wary when moving materials, keep quiet about what you actually do to those who don't need to know,install security where you can alarms are a must but cameras on homes can make it obvious you have something worth taking, insurance is good but can be expensive and may require more obvious security than you want,pay by check or bank transfer and be paid the same way wherever possible, use insured post when you can rather than carry your materials, don't use the same days or hours to move materials, have a stash of what looks good but is fairly worthless around to hand over if forced and be alert without been paranoid.
It all goes with the territory, we have values that other want without the effort or expense so be safe and be secure but not at the loss of a normal life.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree with 100% of your post Oz. And have been in similar situations as you stated. And yes I agree that this needs to be discussed. My concern was this getting way out of hand but is slowed down so I see no need to lock it. You and the other moderators do a good job and if the need arises it will be taken care of by one of you. And will be glad to comment and help on this topic. I was just concerned that it was going down a path of someone discusssing shooting someone and don't feel that is necessary on the forum. Especially since we seems to be drawing in more kid's, but they need to know the dangers they are working with too. I am behind every one of you 100%.


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## jimdoc (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree that this topic should be discussed also.All my incidents happened in a pizza shop,and out delivering pizza,in an auto repair shop,and on the street
trying to mind my own business.So if you bring the values of precious metals into the mix,I think you can expect a lot more problems.

There had been many store owners shot and killed in my old neighborhood,one was a jeweler.He was the nicest person you would ever want to meet,I am sure he didn't have a gun,but was shot dead for some jewelry,that I am sure he wasn't willing to trade his life for.And that was long before the neighborhood and whole city got really bad.

Jim


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## texan (Jan 16, 2011)

Many years ago and in what now seems almost like another life I carried a badge and and the required firearm....I was 21 years old when I was hired as a small town police officer. It has been rare over the last 40 years or so that I have not been armed. It may have not been on my person but at least in the trunk of the car. Generally it has been when I traveled to states that did not trust their citizens to own and carry firearms. When Texas started issuing CHLs I got one the first year.

It is interesting to study the history of gun control laws. Most in the North came into existence after the Civil War to keep firearms out of the hands of those out of political power that you disagreed with. In the South it was to make it unlawfull for blacks and Mexicans to have firearms. At the same time it was expected that a "Gentleman" was probably armed. This also was the case for many "Gentle Ladies" also. My grandmother here in Texas carried a Colt 1903 Model under her dress for some 20 years in the early part of the 20th Century.

At the time I became a police officer my father sat me down and had a good old father and son chat about if was I ready to use the .357 Magnum Colt I had to carry at all times. My chief said that even if I was off duty I was still a police officer and he expected me to be armed at all times. My father said he had 5 confirmed kills while in the Pacific as commanding officer of a bomb disposal squad...4 with firearms and 1 with a machete. He said that he could remember the face of every enemy soldier he had to end the life of.

Not everyone is ready to deal with the personal and legal ramifications of having to use deadly force...however if a deadly force situation presents itself and you do not act...you or someone close to you may be the one that is dead. You may have to live with that also. There is plenty of training available and I recomend it. 

I also support having a topic of security on the forum.

We do not live in a safe society and yet many people go around being blissfully ignorant of their surroundings...I do not choose to be one of them. 

Texan


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## butcher (Jan 16, 2011)

Texan that is one very important aspects to security, 
"We do not live in a safe society and yet many people go around being blissfully ignorant of their surroundings".


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## texan (Jan 16, 2011)

butcher said:


> Texan that is one very important aspects to security,
> "We do not live in a safe society and yet many people go around being blissfully ignorant of their surroundings".



A police officer friend of mine calls it "condition cluless."

Texan


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## butcher (Jan 16, 2011)

Many an ole men call it walkin around with yer head up yer ash.


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## samuel-a (Jan 17, 2011)

This is very important aspect of our profession/hobby and I'm glad it came up. here's some tips I've picked up along the way. 

If advertising about gold parties or meetings to the public, one should never go alone *!!* weather armed or not .

Never carry cash/checks on you when going in, leave it with your trusty partner.
Let your partner drop you off a block away, there he will wait for your call if he can come in with the money or not.
Use code words known only to you two (in case someone jumped you, you can always say the money is with your partner and you will call him to bring it but you actually tell him "danger, call the police to my location" )
Try to always break your routine in case someone is stalking and following you.

You should always try to get a sense of the person talking to you on the phone inviting you to buy gold at his home/office, investigate, ask for some details about him and the neighborhood, google his info and see if it matches...
Even if the guy's voice doesn't sounds right to you, walk away, pass it... at the worst case, you could be rubbed or buy stolen good. At the least you will be just an a$$

A good personal security lies with combination of *PREVENTION *(all of the above) of dangerous situations and *REACTION *(guns or physical combat) to them


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## HAuCl4 (Jan 18, 2011)

Discretion is the strongest protection. You can refine/store moderately large amounts of gold in your toilet room if no one knows about it. The problem starts when people know you are in the business and have access to quantities. When that happens, you better have a proper suitable location, with insurance, guards, time vault, etc.

The biggest risk is when you are a medium sized processor and can't/won't afford adequate protection.

Forget guns, you will be outgunned at the exactly wrong time. If I need to carry a gun to a transaction, the transaction is not worth it. IMO.


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## jimdoc (Jan 18, 2011)

HAuCl4 said:


> If I need to carry a gun to a transaction, the transaction is not worth it. IMO.



Problem is you never know when it will be needed.It is just an added insurance policy in my view.

Jim


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## Drewbie (Jan 19, 2011)

If you're doing a PM transaction with someone you don't know, best to do it inside a bank.

Especially if they're paying you for gold, because you can put the cash straight into your account and they know they can't mug you for it outside.


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