# Anyone know how the Shor Simplicity System works?



## bswartzwelder (Apr 19, 2013)

I am not a big fan of Shor when it comes to recovery or refining of gold. I don't like the fact that they make you keep coming back to them and paying an exorbitant price for common chemicals that most of us have used. Having said that, they have a method (Shor Simplicity System) which looks a little like a sulfuric cell except it uses a "special salt water bath". In their words, "To the water is added a powder which turns the gold, but not the other metals back into solid form.". This system uses some form of ceramic cell. Is this something people on the forum use? Has it been described on the forum? They use three chemicals which they don't tell you what they are. They are: GC Salt, Odor Free Precipitant, and a Catalyst. 

I have asked Shor for the MSDS sheets for the chemicals they supply for the acid system. What I got did not meet the requirements of the Federal Government. They listed the chemicals by the name of storm precipitant, but did not list what chemicals it was comprised of. Same thing for the "Sub Zero". Yet the MSDS sheets say they are supposed to say what chemicals are in each. 

I have not seen any information on the Simplicity System, but have also not seen where it couldn't be used indoors. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


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## its-all-a-lie (Apr 19, 2013)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=13335&hilit=shor+simplicity+system


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## srlaulis (Apr 19, 2013)

I like to run in the opposite direction of Shor anytime I come across one. :lol:


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## bswartzwelder (Apr 19, 2013)

I hope I have not caused a bunch of trouble by mentioning the Shor Simplicity system. If I have, please accept this as my most sincere apology. I do know this system crops up on the forum from time to time, but aside from determining what the chemicals used actually are, I was wondering how tha actual system works. You put X in one chamber, Y in another and apply DC power to it and somehow, almost magically it seems to produce almost pure gold with no really dangerous chemicals, fumes, or anything else that's bad. My interest was to try to deplate some scrap which has a gold plating on it without using highly concentrated sulfuric acid (which I purchased). I found his patent number and will try to get a copy of it. Most of the chemicals have been demystified by members on the forum with the exception of the catalyst. I need to look up a copper cell in hopes of finding how they are constructed and what actually happens when it is running.

I contacted Shor yesterday and asked how well their cell would work if I put some circuit board connectors in it which had been soldered to the circuit board. Specifically, I wanted to know if the cell would get to the gold UNDER the solder. They did respond today and said the simplicity cell would not work very well on this. I purchased chemicals from them before I found the forum, but not since. Still, I may purchase the DVD which tells how to use the system just to gain more information on how it works. I've lost more than the DVD costs in losing lottery tickets, and it seems like the price for the DVD would not be an expensive education (that is assuming I can learn something from it). 

Also, I did use the search function, but there seems to be an abundance of people willing to say negative things about Shor and almost nothing of how the system actually works. Has anybody been able to duplicate it? If so, I imagine the price would be quite a bit less than Shor's price of almost $600.

Again, my apology if I have stirred up a hornets nest. That was not my intention.


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## Palladium (Apr 20, 2013)

You didn't do anything wrong? We ask questions and that's how we learn. Let me see if i can help. The shor system is better known by it's proper name of a fizzer cell. You melt an anode preferably one that doesn't contain a high amount of silver. Silver will passivate the surface and stop the reaction just like with karat jewelry. This process is basically ar with electricity. Anything above about 3 volts will do and the amperage is up to you because the more you apply the quicker it happens. Just remember a lot of heat can be generated as well as cl gas from the anode reaction. Some cl gas is given off. The anode is placed in a porous cup. This porous cup has a micron rating of .5 microns (Half a micron). The anode is dissolved by the generation of chlorine gas at the surface by the addition of electricity. At the same time on the other side of the cell barrier (Porous cup) we are making sodium hydroxide. All the sudden this resembles a chlor-alkali cell. The ions that dissolve on the anode side of the cell membrane can not pass the barrier and are blocked because of their ionic size separating the two solutions. The catalyst to start this reaction is regular old hydrogen peroxide added to the cup with the anode. Just a few ml is enough. It gets the process going and from there it is self replicating. after the gold anode is dissolved you add smb and precipitate the gold out. The only other thing you need is iodine free salt.


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## Palladium (Apr 20, 2013)

Basic membrane cell used in the electrolysis of brine. At the anode (A), chloride (Cl-) is oxidized to chlorine. The ion-selective membrane (B) allows the counterion Na+ to freely flow across, but prevents anions such as hydroxide (OH-) and chloride from diffusing across. At the cathode (C), water is reduced to hydroxide and hydrogen gas. The only difference is instead of a non reactive anode that gives off cl we have a reactive anode that dissolves with cl.


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## butcher (Apr 20, 2013)

I really like the simplicity of your answer Palladium.

I see shore as a company that will take a known process, and put their own twist on it, change something a little bit to get a patent, take common chemicals and give them mysterious names, (secret formulas of common fertilizer), they also seem to make claims that may be hard to achieve, they kind of remind me of people who learn a little bit from our forum and then post their secret process on the internet or Ebay, (basically stealing others hard work and claiming it as their own), selling something they learned form here (or at least what they think they have learned).

Snake oil salesmen bottling honey and whiskey and calling it their special formula with special healing magic medicinal powers, and selling it for much more than it is worth, information you may be able to get someplace else for free, or supplies for much less than they charge, yes it may help with the cough, or if you drink enough who care's if they are still coughing, but its only purpose is to take your money and give it to the snake oil salesman, who is just selling your grandmas recipe, claiming it will cure all disease known to man. 

It is not that the process may not work, for its original application, but what is the true process, what are the true chemicals, we just need to find and look at grandmas recipe, not the twist shore put on it, trying to get the money from your pocket and hooking you like a sucker fish to their system.


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## bswartzwelder (Apr 20, 2013)

Palladium,

Thank you for the pictorial and the easy to understand explanation. After having done several more hours of research, I have also found out what comprises the chemicals in the Shor Simplicity system. True to form, they are all easy to obtain and for the most part not highly dangerous like concentrated sulfuric acid would be. It would appear that anyone could make one of these. The biggest roadblock for me would be to find something which could be used as the membrane. Somewhere on the forum, someone said an old flower pot with the bottom hole plugged up might work. I just might have to give that a try.

The membrane is necessary because without it, the gold would plate off the the anode and plate back onto the cathode. The membrane prevents this from happening. From what Shor was describing in their instructions for using the cell, it was difficult to visualize the cell construction. I don't think this was an accident. Having seen your pictorial, it all comes together and makes sense. I really think that once you get the membrane issue solved, the rest should be easy enough for anyone to duplicate.

Butcher,

Man, I'm still laughing at your description of Shor. C'mon, quit pussyfooting around and tell us what you really think of Shor. I will be rolling on the floor laughing my posterior off thinking about your reply. Thanks, I really needed that, especially today. By the way, I was at a flea market today and picked up 10 used laptops for a total of $10. Some more parts to process.

P.S. While I truly respect free market enterprise, I really feel the same as Butcher when it comes to ANY company which rips people off by selling at exhorbitant prices. There are many instances on the Internet where people are asking about the chemicals sold by Shor. If those same people came to this forum, all their questions would be answered.


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## Palladium (Apr 20, 2013)

You can use to separate tanks and connect them by a syringe filter with pvc tubing. Think of it as a salt bridge. This is how i make my experimental model for small scale testing and it worked fine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Whatman-STERILE-Syringe-Filter-GD-X-Sterile-45um-Pore-Size-/140927956265?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cff5f529


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## butcher (Apr 20, 2013)

coors ceramic cup P-1/2-BC 

http://css.coorstek.com/scripts/css512.wsc/co/co_porous.html


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## bswartzwelder (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks Palladium and Butcher. I ordered 3 of the syringe filters to give it a try. Then I saw Butchers response and looked up the coors porous cups. Price is a bit high since you have to buy a case of them. Interesting idea with the syringe filters. The cross sectional area of the tubing going to and from the filter will determine the maximum current flow which can pass through the cell. The more filters you add in parallel, the higher the amount of amps that could pass through. Will let you guys know hew it works when things arrive and I get a chance to try it out.

This really has intrigued me. It is a really simple design (+). It can run without constant supervision (+). The chemicals aren't as dangerous as concentrated H2SO4 (+). There shouldn't be any huge amounts of dangerous gasses generated (+) (but I will still use it outdoors). It should be easy to construct (+). The cost of operating it should be low (+). The cost of the chemicals used is not very high (+). The chemicals are all readily available (+). You cannot process all types of scrap gold (-) may be a drawback. I am truly surprised that more people on the forum haven't built this.


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## Palladium (Apr 21, 2013)

The syringe filters are by design. In the prototype i built i wanted a cheap effective method for the cup. I leaned toward making the cup a consumable. What i mean by that is like filter papers, acids, paper towels, you know, consumables. It's just a cost of doing business. The reason why i did this is because i can see the pores of the ceramic cup becoming clogged over a period of time. To much trash for it to not at least become partly clogged and reduce cell capacity. They can be cleaned by placing them in an over and burning them out i believe or with acids, but if i can just unplug, trash, and switch and have 100% each time, well then..... So my alternate was for a cheap disposable solution that would simplify the process as well as be functional. The two i started with worked just fine for the at least 10 batches i did. Add a lure connector on the tubing end and a new filter is a click away. Whatman had just the answer in that filter design. The design is actually a multilayer mini cell membrane. You should look up the specs on it from Whatman. You are correct the pvc tubing in effect become conductive power lines, use two lines.


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## bswartzwelder (Apr 24, 2013)

I would really like to rty this system. However, the coorstek cups are over $30 each and seem to only be sold in case lots. Is there anyone on the forum who has one for sale? If not, I could buy a case of these and would sell some of them at my cost plus shipping charges if anyone is intereasted. I just do not want to buy a whole case of them and then have them sitting around.


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## butcher (Apr 24, 2013)

I think I would just try out an ceramic crucible, and see how it worked.


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## bswartzwelder (Apr 24, 2013)

If the ceramic crucible is not porous with 0.5 micron pores, it probably wouldn't work. The pores are needed to allow the hydrogen ions to pass through while keeping the hydroxides from passing through. In the Shor system, they say you can process either up to either 5 ounces or up to 1 kilo. Strange how they mixed the units between ounce and kilograms. Anyhow, with the unit set to the 5 ounce configuration, I suspect the gold (anode) is inside the cup and for 1 kilogram the gold (anode) is outside the cup. This way, the current flow is reversed, the anode and cathode are reversed, the placement of the chemicals are reversed, and the capacity of the uint is optimized for the amount of gold to be processed. Actually, that part is pretty smart. I have a couple of unused crucibles laying around, but I hate to risk losing any gold.


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## h hutch1945 (May 3, 2013)

bswartzwelder said:


> I am not a big fan of Shor when it comes to recovery or refining of gold. I don't like the fact that they make you keep coming back to them and paying an exorbitant price for common chemicals that most of us have used. Having said that, they have a method (Shor Simplicity System) which looks a little like a sulfuric cell except it uses a "special salt water bath". In their words, "To the water is added a powder which turns the gold, but not the other metals back into solid form.". This system uses some form of ceramic cell. Is this something people on the forum use? Has it been described on the forum? They use three chemicals which they don't tell you what they are. They are: GC Salt, Odor Free Precipitant, and a Catalyst.
> 
> I have asked Shor for the MSDS sheets for the chemicals they supply for the acid system. What I got did not meet the requirements of the Federal Government. They listed the chemicals by the name of storm precipitant, but did not list what chemicals it was comprised of. Same thing for the "Sub Zero". Yet the MSDS sheets say they are supposed to say what chemicals are in each.
> 
> I have not seen any information on the Simplicity System, but have also not seen where it couldn't be used indoors. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


if you haven't already bought one run from it as fast as possible, I got one from them and tried everthing I could to get it to work, followed instruction down to every detail spent hundreds of dollars and did not get anything at all from it, it will not work on computer parts, so I tried gold filled jewelry nothing, so I have filled it with their salt solution covered up in my shop, some people may have had good luck with it but not me, hope this helps. h hutch1945


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## h hutch1945 (May 3, 2013)

I just got through with another post a few minutes ago but forgot a few items, it can be used indoors although I would not advise it, you hook a 12v battery charger to it, and its supposed to run between 10 to 20 volts it has a electrode in it you hook the positive side to it the other you have to solder your ingot to a copper wire and put a electronic grade silicone on the exposed wire, I never got the ingot to stay on the wire the salt solution would eat through it, you put the ingot into the ceramic cell and its supposed to dissolve it and separate it, the gold is supposed to stay in the pouch that's inside the cell, I never could get the amps above 5 and it would not work at all on the computer parts although it might work on gold jewelry, I got so disgusted with it I just sit it aside before I took a sledge hammer to it, just kidding


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## bswartzwelder (May 4, 2013)

I'm planning on building one with a few minor modifications and have all the parts (Hope I haven't missed any) on order. Also have a bunch of gold plated items with what appears to be a fairly heavy coating on them. Will see if it will do as they claim it will or not. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky with my design. I had to order a case quantity (8 pieces) of the Coorstek porous ceramic cups. If anyone is interested in purchasing 1 or 2, I will sell them for my cost plus the shipping cost to you.


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## bswartzwelder (May 4, 2013)

h hutch1945, I have just reread your post and feel you may have made a mistake or two on your usage. According to the information I have, you hook the positive wire to the gold anode and the carbon rod is connected to the negative terminal of your battery charger. The polarity of the connections is critical to the proper operation of any electrolytic cell. Another point is that the gold does not stay in the pouch, but dissolves and goes into solution in the electrolyte and then has to be precipitated with SMB or some other precipitating agent. If I'm wrong, Palladium can point us both in the right direction as he has had some positive results using this cell.


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## Palladium (May 4, 2013)

bswartzwelder said:


> h hutch1945, I have just reread your post and feel you may have made a mistake or two on your usage. According to the information I have, you hook the positive wire to the gold anode and the carbon rod is connected to the negative terminal of your battery charger. The polarity of the connections is critical to the proper operation of any electrolytic cell. Another point is that the gold does not stay in the pouch, but dissolves and goes into solution in the electrolyte and then has to be precipitated with SMB or some other precipitating agent. If I'm wrong, Palladium can point us both in the right direction as he has had some positive results using this cell.



You are correct. They do make a silver cell that doubles as a parting cell for gold that works with nitrate solutions where the powder is not dissolved, but that appears to not be what he's talking about.


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## h hutch1945 (May 4, 2013)

bswartzwelder said:


> h hutch1945, I have just reread your post and feel you may have made a mistake or two on your usage. According to the information I have, you hook the positive wire to the gold anode and the carbon rod is connected to the negative terminal of your battery charger. The polarity of the connections is critical to the proper operation of any electrolytic cell. Another point is that the gold does not stay in the pouch, but dissolves and goes into solution in the electrolyte and then has to be precipitated with SMB or some other precipitating agent. If I'm wrong, Palladium can point us both in the right direction as he has had some positive results using this cell.


 you are right on how you hook the battery charger its been awhile since I have used it, but I did have it hooked right when I used it, the ceramic cell has a pouch inside it and the gold is supposed to stay in the pouch on the small batches you can either use a small batch with this system or you can do a large batch, on the large the gold does go into the solution the small batch stays in the pouch, I seen another post that he was having trouble melting his gold I had the same problem, not even sure it was gold, im certainly not a expert on refining but I did everything I could to produce gold called shor several times for instructions which they were very helpful in trying to help, maybe I will give it another try later. sorry for the wrong instructions


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## bswartzwelder (May 5, 2013)

After having studied the Shor system, you put the gold to be deplated in the pouch. It's called an anode bag and the anode is connected to the positive terminal of your power supply. In industry, an anode bag is used to catch slimes or mud which come off the anode. In this system, you put their "catalyst" into the anode bag and the the anode bag keeps the catalyst in close proximity to the anode until power is turned on and electrolysis begins. For this system, the amount of catalyst needed is approximately one part per million of the total amount of electrolyte. Once electrolysis begins, the catalyst is no longer needed and the reaction will continue to happen as long as the power is on or until all the gold has been deplated. That's why the amperage drops off once the gold has been deplated. The cathode in the Shor Simplicity cell is a carbon rod which is connected to the negative terminal of your power supply. In reality, the bag is used to keep the gold being deplated together in a clump and is very porous. The ceramic cup is also porous with specifically sized pores. The pores are less than 0.5 microns and greater than 0.005 microns. The cell will work with the anode inside the cup (and cathode outside the cup) for small batches and the cathode inside the cup (and the anode outside the cup) for large batches. Either way, the gold is deplated and goes into solution in the electrolyte in the same side of the cup as the anode. However, the gold cannot pass through the porous cup because of the small size of the pores and the relatively large size of the gold atoms. Another interesting feature is the electrolyte can only hold a specific amount of gold. If you put too much gold inside the cup (as in a small batch), there will be too much gold and the electrolyte inside the cup will become saturated. It is much more difficult to saturate the electrolyte if the anode is outside of the cup because there may be up to almost a gallon of electrolyte outside of the cup. This much electrolyte could possibly contain almost an ounce of gold. Regardless of where you place the anode, the solution it is sitting in (either inside the cup or outside the cup) is where your gold will end up. Without the porous cup, the gold would still deplate off the items connected to the anode, but would then replate back onto the cathode and your gold would still be stuck on one of the electrodes in the tank. The porous cup keeps this from happening. Now, once you have operated the cell, and the gold has been deplated from whatever is was originally on, it is now in solution and must be precipitated with your choice of precipitating agents. You can take two Q-tips, dip one in the anode electrolyte and dip the other one in the cathode electrolyte. Put a drop of fresh stannous chloride on each and a dark reaction will show you exactly where your gold is. If I have made any mistakes, I welcome corrections because I, like everyone else on this forum want to understand what we are doing to the best of my ability.


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## h hutch1945 (May 5, 2013)

I have a simplicity you have to melt whatever you are going to refine into a ingot then solder a piece of copper wire to it, then use a electronic grade silicone sealant to cover the naked wire, you add this to the ceramic cell with the pouch inside add the catalyst after the battery charger is hooked up, you can refine 5 oz before you have to change the g s salt in the cell you can do a total of 30 oz before you change the solution in the tank, it is supposed to run between 10 and 20 amps at this rate it is supposed to dissolve an oz per hour, the trouble I had was keeping the ingot on the copper wire the salt solution would eat through the silicone and it would drop into the bag, also I could never get the amps above 5 amps on any computer scrap, I know some people have had some success with this unit but not me I filled mine with the salt solution and stored it away. hope this helps have one to sell if you are interested.


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## bswartzwelder (May 15, 2013)

I received my Coorstek cups last night and if all goes well, I plan to try my first deplating batch by sometime this weekend. Need good thoughts from everyone here.


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## Kiwi Bruce (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm pretty sure (no pun intended) That the chemicals used in in the Shor simplicity system are as follows :- The GC salt is ammonium chloride, the catalyst is Sodium Chlorite and the odor free gold recovery salt is sodium sulfite. I don't had any examples of their salts to test, but I do remember reading that the catalyst had to be handled carefully because it can cause a fire if it comes in contact with organic material, and this would defiantly indicate a chlorite salt. The ammonium in the chloride GC salt would dissolve any silver chloride that developed on the ingot and allow the unit to run for hours without needing to be cleaned. Lastly, sodium sulfite and Iron sulfate will drop Au out of a solution as well SO2 gas does, but with a lot less trouble. However FeSO4 is green and the Shor simplicity are white. If you have examples of the salts then test them. For example, if the GC salt IS ammonium chloride it will drop Pt out of an cold AR solution as Platinum yellow salt. If you don't have some extra Pt just laying around, then NH4Cl will give off Ammonia as a gas, if its exposed to a few drops of lye solution. Love to know any results you get. Anyway, that my fifty cents worth, Kiwi Bruce


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## bswartzwelder (Jun 23, 2013)

I AM NO EXPERT on the Shor Simplicity System, but I feel almost certain the GC salt is ammonium chloride with non iodized table salt mixed in. The catalyst is most likely hydrogen peroxide or sodium peroxide. Somewhere, it also uses a very small amount of hydrogen peroxide or sodium carbonate. I think that you can use almost any common precipitant to drop your gold such as SMB.


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## Traveller11 (Jun 25, 2013)

Interesting. I was reading the Shor site and the pregnant solution from the anode side is a green colour, indicative of dissolved copper yet they claim it contains gold, as well. Their precipitant is selective and drops only the gold from solution.


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## Kiwi Bruce (Jun 25, 2013)

Gold scrap from the jewelry industry can contain a fair amount of copper. 14 kt, for example, is only 58% gold the rest of the alloy can by copper, silver, nickel, palladium and some of the old white gold alloys contained 10% iridium or osmium to harden them. The brown color of the gold chloride in the PM "cell" of the Shor simplicity would be masked by the color of the green copper chloride and the ammonium silver chloride, which is a bright blue color. In this type of pregnant liquor the gold will drop cleanly with SMB, sodium sulfite, Iron sulfide or SO2 gas. As long as the pH stays on the plus side (alkali) the silver won't drop. Any of the platinum sister metals will by captured in the little muslin bag. You can't rely on color to determine what values you may have. Test all the solutions before you get rid of them. Ammonia does not like to release it's metals easily, even after a long hard boil, you may still have PM's trapped. Kiwi Bruce


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## Traveller11 (Jun 25, 2013)

Palladium

Good description of the Chlor-Alkali cell, which is, of course, a chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide generator. I'm curious, if chlorine gas is introduced to water and dissolves to become hypochlorous acid (or a mix of hypochlorite and hypochlorous acid, dependent on pH) and hydrochloric acid, do you think some of the chlorine made at the anode in this cell is becoming hypochlorous acid prior to its decomposing the anode? The reason I ask is that it seems there is a potential for a build up of HCl on the anode side with a subsequent lowering of pH that might require adjustment. Of course, once the pH dropped below 5, it would be impossible for chlorine to go into solution. Whether this would be good, bad or indifferent is hard to say.

In some ways, this cell is similar to a description I found of a unit in use in the gold mining industry in the 1890's, prior to the large scale abandonment of chlorine leaching in the early 1900's in favour of cyanide leaching. The main difference here is that the dissolving of gold is done in a separate revolving tank and the pregnant liquor is brought back to the cell. The gold is separated from the chloride there by electrolysis and falls to the bottom of the cell at the cathode, not plating out on the cathode as some believe may happen. The liberated chlorine then dissolves in the brine water to become hypochlorous acid/sodium hypochlorite again and is returned to dissolve more gold.

The most interesting thing in this description is the exclusion of all air from the revolving cylinder where the actual leaching occurs. Another version of this process actually pressurizes the same cylinder to 60 psi for the duration of the leaching process. The reason for this is the hypochlorous acid (HOCl) is very unstable, wanting to lose the oxygen atom and become hydrogen chloride (HCl). This will lower the pH of the solution to the point where it is so acidic ( - pH 5), chlorine gas will be liberated and oxides of base metals in ore (iron, copper) will be broken up and the base metals go into solution. My experience with chlorinating water systems shows me that chlorinated water (sodium hypochlorite/hypochlorous acid) will maintain a level of free chlorine for many days as long as that water is in a pressurized pipe. As soon as that water is poured into an open container at atmospheric pressure, the breakdown of hypochlorous acid proceeds very quickly (two hours at most) and does not stop until all of the sodium hypochlorite is converted to hypochlorous acid and that is converted to hydrochloric acid and oxygen.



Electrolytic Precipitation of Gold

In order to perform the electrolytic precipitation of gold, from the filtration vessel the gold chloride solution was conducted into the outer or battery jar of an electrolytic cell. The electrode of the outer cell was connected with the negative pole of a dynamo and the electrode on the inner cell was connected with positive pole or terminal of the dynamo. The gold solution was sent into the jar near the bottom and slowly circulated upwards, and at the same time a current of electricity was passes through the cell. When the reaction was produced, the gold chloride was decomposed and felt like a shower of fine spangles to the bottom, while the liberated chlorine passed into the inner cell where it was absorbed by the water circulating and formed a chlorine solution.

The receiver was charged with chlorine solution generated by the electrolysis of salt. The unit comprised a battery, a conductor from the electrode in the large battery jar to the negative pole of the electrical generator, the conductor from the electrode in the porous cell to the positive pole of the generator, a reservoir containing a saturated solution of sodium chloride, which passed to the battery through a pipe and a reservoir containing water connected by a pipe with a porous cell.

In order to treat the ore more effectually with the chlorine solution it was advantageous to expel the air from the chlorinator. For this purpose the chlorinator was provided with a valve, so that the air contained in the chlorinator passed out as the chlorine solution passed in. the valve was closed immediately the air was expelled. The chlorinator after disconnected was slowly revolved by means of a pulley and strap from an engine, or in other suitable way until the gold was dissolved as a gold chloride. The time required for treatment in the chlorinator varied from one to two hours according to the characteristics of the gold ore treated. The ore and solution were discharged into a suitable filtration vessel placed beneath the chlorinator. The vessel was a shallow vat constructed of oak or other material, the lower part was made cone-shaped and of the same capacity of the chlorinator.

The vat was closed by a cover bolted down. In the center of the cover there was hopper-shaped inlet for receiving the ore and solution from the chlorinator. A perforated diaphragm covered with asbestos cloth, over which was advantageously placed a layer of other suitable filtration media such as ground asbestos, which was fixed from one to two inches below the top of the vat. The gold chloride was washed out of the ore by a stream of water from a tank. The water entered the vat through a pipe at the lowest part and percolated upwards through the ore until the gold content in the solution was extremely low. It was important to take samples of the solution to determine the presence of gold. A sliding door in the bottom of the vat was opened and the residue from the ore as discharged by means of a large outlet opened into a truck placed underneath.

The gold chloride and water descended through a pipe into a receiver and was conducted from the receiver into the outer or battery jar of the electrolytic cell. The gold solution flowed into and entered the jar at the bottom and slowly circulated upwards and at the same time a current of electricity was passé through the cell to reduce and precipitate gold from the solution into a perfectly pure state, upon the bottom of the jar, from where it was removed. The chlorine was liberated at the same time at the electrode in the inner or porous cell and in contact with the water circulating and formed a chlorine solution, which was sent to receiver vessel.


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## Traveller11 (Jun 26, 2013)

Here is an article from the Australian Town and Country (NSW: 1870-1907) dated Saturday, Jan. 31, 1891. It describes a process almost identical to the process described in my last post. The chlorine, in this case, is produced by adding dilute sulphuric acid to sodium chloride or chloride of lime (calcium hypochlorite). When dissolved in water, the chlorine gas again makes a "chlorine solution" which is, of course, hypochlorous acid. 

While they again use a lead lined iron cylinder tightly sealed for the process, they do not attempt to displace all of the air in the cylinder or pressurize to 60 psi as in the other two processes I described. Rather, ground ore and water are first added to the cylinder and then sulphuric acid and chloride of lime, at which point the cylinder is tightly sealed. It is assumed the resultant production of excess chlorine gas will elevate the air pressure inside of the cylinder to a level at which hypochlorous acid cannot lose its oxygen atom and stabilizes.




Chlorination. I
The chlorination process of extracting gold from its matrix, and from from concentrates, is often freely alluded to in newspapers and amongst miners; and yet, as a rule, the principle is but vaguely understood, even by men who make mining their business. Our explanation will be principally for persons who understand but little, if anything, of chemistry. To the scientific man the great affinity of chlorine for the precious metals has been known almost ever since the distinguished German chemist, Schule, first discovered chlorine, about the year 1774. Chlorine, then, is an element, that is a simple substance, out of which nothing can be produced but itself, chlorine. It is a gas, and has many remarkable properties- bleaching almost all colored substances, and being very heavy as compared with common air, and being also very deleterious to breathe. It is largely consumed by man and the lower animals in food as common salt, which contains a little more than half of pure chlorine. It conies into use in mining in consequence chiefly of its great affinity or liking for gold and silver. If it can get sufficiently near it will seize hold of them, appropriating a certain portion to itself, making what is called chloride of gold ot silver. It being so abundant in nature, salt being so common, it is made cheaply-a little dilute sul- phuric acid put on salt liberates chlorine gas, and its attraction for silver can be witnessed by the curious any day in the Sydney Mint by watching the chlorine gas being put into the bottom of the molten gold in the pot, and as it bubbles up to top seeing it seize hold of the silver, carrying it to the top of the gold as a chloride of silver. In using chlorine to extract gold you simply crush the stone or matrix so fine that it can get at the gold and take hold of it as a chloride. The easiest way to do this is to put the chlorine in solution in water, and so powerful is its action on gold that it dissolves that metal, holding it in solution as water holds sugar. There is no difficulty in making a solution of chlorine, as at ordinary temperatures water dissolves about twice its volume of chlorine. Thus then having liberated the gold from the stone by crushing, and having made chlorine gas, as can be done cheaply, say from common salt, and having passed the chlorine so made through water, and thus made a solution of chlorine, and bringing it and the crushed stone together, in a short time you have your chlorine solution, containing all the gold in solution that was in the crushed stone. Having then the auriferous chlorine solution decanted or run off from the sludge or crushed stone or pyrites, you put something into it which will deposit or throw down the gold. Either one of two things, both of them very cheap and easily obtained, will do this effectuality, viz., a solution of sulphate of iron, common green vitrol, or pieces of common wood charcoal. The first will throw all the gold down as a powder; the other, wood charcoal, will take to itself the gold out of the solution as a brown film, and upon the charcoal being burned away the pure gold remains. This is the rationale or reason of what is called the chlorination process, and any person of ordinary capacity, upon reflecting upon the foregoing, will not fail to comprehend the method used through the aid of certain machinery, which we will presently describe. It may help to understand this subject if we remind the reader that each of the three chief processes of extracting gold from its matrix or stone or pyritous matter consists in bringing it into contact with some substance which has so great an affinity or liking for it that it is taken up or amalgamated, and then the amalgamating substance got rid of or the gold taken from it. Thus in the common stamper battery or grinding mill mercury is the amalgamating material, as all miners know, which takes up the gold. In smelting, matter containing gold is put by intense heat, often assisted by fluxes of various kinds, into a state of fusion, and then brought in contact with molten lead, which, like mercury, has an intense affinity for gold, and it is thus extracted-the lead in the one case and the mercury in the other being ultimately taken from the gold by evaporation, or as regards the lead by cupellation, which is in effect evaporation. As regards the third great process, viz., extracting by chlorine, we have explained upon what principle that is carried out, being, in fact, like the other two, merely making use of a substance which, by its great affinity, will seize hold of the gold and collect it, so to speak.
Of the three processes, the crushing and amalgamating with mercury, the smelting and amalgamating with lead, and the crushing and absorption by a solution of chlorine, each is suitable according to the way the gold is found in the stone or auriferous material. Rich pyrites or black sand, or concentrates, require smelting as a rule, because all the grinding, to whatever degree of fineness it may be carried, will not liberate all the gold from the iron and metals, so that mercury can act on it. Again, crushing by stampers or grinding in mills will be suitable where much of the gold is fairly coarse, and, as it is called, free in the stone. Arid chlorination comes in and is useful where gold is free in the stone, but is so very fine that in crushing in the ordinary way the mercury can't take hold of it but is carried away in the sludge or tailings. Chlorination also is useful in extracting the precious metal from concentrates, though in this case it may be found more suitable to sell them to the smelting works than to treat them by chlorine at the mine.
Having thus described what may be termed the principles of chlorination, we now describe the appliances by which they are carried into effect. First, the stone is crushed dry, arid, as in the case of the iron-clad reef at Cargo where chlorination is carried on, by heavy steel rollers driven by steam power. Next the crushed stone is calcined in an ordinary reverberatory calcining furnace to eliminate all the sulphur and arsenic which it is advisable to get rid of before treatment by chlorine. Then the calcined crushed stone is put into a large iron barrel about 8 ft long by about 3 ft in diameter and lined with lead, because chlorine acts powerfully on iron as it does on gold and silver, but will not touch lead. 

On page 25

A sufficient quantity of water is put in the barrel to make a thin sludge, then a quantity of chloride lime-that stuff much used as a disinfectant, and which is simply common lime saturated with chlorine gas-is put to the sludge, and upon that a small quantity of sulphuric acid. The barrel is then closed down air-tight, and made to
revolve very slowly. The acid acting on the lime evolves the chlorine, which is taken up by the water, and the chlorine solution takes up the gold in the stone. After some hours of the barrel revolving, the whole contents are turned out into a cask or receptacle and allowed to settle. The clear liquor is then drawn off, and made to pass through a cask or vessel partly packed with common wood charcoal, which, as the auriferous chlorine solution passes through it, takes the gold
to itself; and upon the charcoal being burned away, say in an iron pot, the pure gold remains. This, then, is the chlorination process, which, we think; our readers-even those quite unacquainted with chemistry-will clearly comprehend. Whether this process, admirable as it is in many cases, should be used at any particular gold mine is a
question for serious consideration. As a rule, the stamper battery and amalgamation with mercury and concentrating the pyrites is the best. In
some cases, however, such as the celebrated Mount Morgan stone, chlorination is of the greatest advantage on account chiefly of the extreme fineness of much of the gold.


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## Traveller11 (Jul 1, 2013)

I found this patent on line. I'm not sure whether it is the Shor system or not, but it sounds like what has been described so far. Interesting how silver is turned into a soluble substance, gold is retained in an anode bag as a slime and the anode and cathode are separated by a semi-permeable membrane.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4895626/description.html


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 1, 2013)

On the left, it lists Peter Shor as the inventor. He also has a number of other patents. Many of them are interesting reading.


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## Traveller11 (Jul 1, 2013)

bswartzwelder said:


> On the left, it lists Peter Shor as the inventor. He also has a number of other patents. Many of them are interesting reading.



LOL I didn't see that. Is this the Shor system then?


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## g_axelsson (Jul 1, 2013)

If you follow one of the links you see that he got two patents... this is the second.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5269912/description.html

Both should have expired today.

Göran


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 2, 2013)

If you google patent US4612093 you can also find another one of Peter Shors patents. They list the chemicals used by actual chemical name and not some cryptic code name. For a long time, I was afraid to say much about anything I found in these patents on the forum for fear of violating some kind of patent rights or infringement. However, having said that, everything that has been said about the Shor system seems to be in the public realm of knowledge easily found with a few searches on the Internet. Isn't teknologie fantastic? (technology was misspelled on purpose) Also, when you find one patent, many times it leads to a previous patent and what changes were incorporated into the newer patent. Happy searching and reading. The mysteries have been solved.


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## Kiwi Bruce (Jul 2, 2013)

bswartzwelder. Looked up the patent US4612093 very interesting. Good call on the sodium peroxide as the catalyst. 
Note to Traveller11, I worked for a firm in Maryland that processes very large amounts of PM's for DuPont. They use tanked chlorine gas to dissolve palladium. They have boron-glass reactors that are shaped like kids crayons, point down, 20 inches across and 20 foot tall. They have a heating jacket at the base. They are filled with HCl when the Pd is loaded. Don't remember the exact amount but it was more than a couple of pounds of metal. There was a bubble stone in the pointy tip of the reactor and the gas is let in when the HCl reached temperature. I feel there is a very serious drawback to this system. Sometimes, not very often, but sometimes, the palladium will superheat and when it "goes" it throws the metal, acid and chlorine gas out, like a mini volcano, all over the place. This happened the first day I worked there, I saw the wall of green gas and ran. Out in the parking lot the guy who was running in dissolve came over and said with a smile " I'm glad you where running or you would have had my foot prints right up your back!" Fun with Chemistry starting day one! Kiwi Bruce


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## bswartzwelder (Jul 3, 2013)

Good thing you knew the green gas was not something you would want to stop and smell. One of my grandfathers was gassed by the Germans in World War I. I was told that he lost one entire lung and part of the other one as a result. All things considered, he seemed to cope very well and never once did I ever hear him complain. He lived to a ripe old age and smoked Camel cigarettes (like a fiend) almost to the day he died. Cancer eventually got him. No way to tell if it was the gas or the cigarettes. Really doesn't matter much at this point. Aside from his smoking, I would like to think I have inherited a lot of his traits. He was a good man.


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## 924T (Aug 20, 2013)

bswartzwelder,

How did your tests of the Shor 'system' turn out?
I'm really interested in finding out if the Gold came out at the .99+ they claim it will.

I've got a new, unused but filthy, Shor system sitting here that I got in a package deal for a furnace, and have
been leery about trying it out;

after seeing Palladium's drawing, I really like the idea of the disposable filter and the separate 'tanks', because 
of my wife's objections to running Aqua Regia here. If this would consistently refine Au to .995, I'm a player.

Cheers,

Mike


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## bswartzwelder (Aug 21, 2013)

Mike,

I didn't use the Shor cell because of the price and the small amount of gold I had to process. The first thing I ever saw (or read about) after I collected some processors and foils was the Shor chemical methods. I followed their instructions to a "TEE", but never got any visible gold out of that solution. After chemical additions, the liquid eventually turned a milky white/light green in color. I didn't realize at that time that all the gold I had was probably too small to be seen unaided. Not knowing what I was doing, I got rid of the solution in an irresponsible manner. I regret that decision and wouldn't consider doing things that way again.


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## 924T (Aug 22, 2013)

Palladium,

After having a couple of days to think about it, I think your 2-tank Shor antidote is absolutely brilliant,
especially the disposable filters part.

Once again I feel compelled to say that the amount of innovation that happens in this forum is just staggering!

A question: you ran 2 horizontal pipes with disposable filters?

Did you use circular or square tanks?

Also, did you assay the Au from it, and if so, what did it assay out at?

Many thanks,

Cheers,

Mike


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## Palladium (Aug 22, 2013)

I used two pieces of 1/4 in aquarium air tubing to make the connects between the two tanks. The two tanks were just clear acrylic like plexiglass, open top, and were actually used for cigar displays in a store. I used another clear piece of plexi to cover the top. The gold comes down from a dirty solution so the gold will still need to be washed with hcl real good. I never used it for anything other that proof of concept model, but the gold that came from it was just as pure as gold dropped from ar except it needed washing. I think i did 5 grams mixed with copper and no silver if i'm not mistaken.


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## 924T (Aug 22, 2013)

Palladium,

Most excellent----I simply have to build one of these.

I hope you don't mind me calling it the Palladium Shor antidote 

Did you use Sodium Chloride, Ammonium Chloride, or a mixture of the 2?

Cheers,

Mike


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## Palladium (Aug 22, 2013)

Sodium chloride and about 5 drops of H2O2.


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## 924T (Aug 22, 2013)

Palladium,

Would a small Titanium anode basket work with no problems in the salt solution?

Cheers,

Mike


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## Palladium (Aug 22, 2013)

It should as long as you don't jack the voltage up. If you jack the voltage up you will probably create a cl gas generator. I used about 4 volts. I soldered a piece of silver wire that you can buy from ebay for nearly nothing onto the top and let that be my connection.
I also used a teabag for the anode bag. You can buy them as well as muslin cloth tea sacks on ebay.


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## bswartzwelder (Aug 22, 2013)

Mike,

If you read the entire post from the beginning, you will see the patent numbers. Once you have the patent numbers, you can Google them and read the entire patent. He (Peter Shor) names the chemicals used, their proportions and the process including the sequence of events for the thing to work properly. Palladium has a great drawing of his setup which really helps you understand the mechanics of how everything works.

I believe the catalyst needs to be added in the immediate vicinity of the gold, and just before you turn on the electrical power. Likewise, the filters are critical. If their pore size is too large, gold will pass through. If the pore size is too small, no gold will pass through. Someone on the forum mentioned Coorstek porous ceramic cups as what they believe is being used in the Shor system.

Also, according to the patent information, the temperature of the solution is somewhat critical and works best when elevated. Knowing the size of the cup, I saw an old crock pot at a local flea market and purchased it for $5. I can set the cup in the center, put solution in the cup AND the crock pot and heat everything until it reaches the optimum temperature. The cup is not filled to the top, and the solution in the crock pot cannot be allowed to overflow into the cup, but that should not be a problem.

I wanted to try this system out, like Palladium, 1. just to see if it really works, and 2. because I was intimidated by the thought of using concentrated sulfuric acid in an electrolytic cell. I wanted to purchase one of the Coorstek cups, but was told they are only sold in a case lot of 8. I did purchase 8 of them and they have been sitting around until later when I can build (not operate) the device indoors. I will sell some of them at cost plus shipping if anyone is interested.

Another interesting concept is that the electrode inside the cup can be either the anode or the cathode. THE GOLD IS ALWAYS THE ANODE. If you have a little gold, place your gold IN THE CUP, and connect the gold to the positive terminal of your power supply through a piece of silver wire (I got my silver wire from eBay and ordered a large diameter wire to handle the current). With the gold in the cup, the gold will deplate and land inside of the cup. If you have a lot of gold to deplate, put your CATHODE INSIDE the cup and the GOLD ANODE OUTSIDE the cup. The cup (or in Palladiums case, the filter) acts like a one way revolving door. If the gold is inside the cup, it cannot get out. If the gold is outside the cup, it cannot get in.

My gold, when I try this system out, will be inside four cloth drawstring bags. I will give them a shot of H2O2 just prior to putting them into the outer "ring" of my cell. There will be a copper ring above the cell arranged in a circle. As I lower the bags into the solution, the silver wire connected to the gold will hook over the copper ring completing the circuit. I can do this one bag at a time while monitoring the current flow. The bags are not manufactured to precise tolerances, so some gold may get through. However, in this setup, the deplated gold will still be in the crock pot, just outside of the cup.

Bert


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## 924T (Aug 22, 2013)

bswartzwelder,

It's been a couple of years since I read the 2 main Shor patents, so I don't remember noticing the optimal
temperature info (when I was reading them, I was on a quest to find out what the chemicals really were that
they had given 'stage' names to, and wasn't paying attention to much else).

I've got those patents in pdf format, so I'll have to find them and reread them.

It is very, very interesting that you mentioned the optimal temperature, though, because just last night
I was trying to figure out how I would be able to run this process outside, in the winter. 

So, your excellent innovation of running the NaCl fizzer cell (Shor) process in a crock pot just blew my mind,
because of the potential for insulating a crock pot with Kaowool, and being able to run the process outside
at 0-10F.

Perhaps a Nitric cell could also be run outdoors in a crockpot in similarly frigid weather, insulated thusly?

Do you know of a temperature probe that would withstand the NaCl or HNO3, so that remote monitoring of
the electrolyte temperature would be possible?

As an aside, I've been thinking for some time now about suggesting a new section for the forum, for new
members and beginners, that would help guide them through taking a realistic inventory of: their recovery
and refining objectives, the realistic limitations and/or opportunities of whatever physical plant and/or sociopolitical
environments they have to work with, their skill set(s), their learning style, availability of supplies, etc.,
to help them rapidly define an operational profile------that would, in theory, make it easier for the experienced members
of the forum to provide assistance.

It's a thought at this point------I'd be interested in hearing if it makes any sense to you, and other forum members?

Cheers,

Mike


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## 924T (Aug 22, 2013)

Wow, I just looked up Sodium Peroxide Na2O2 on ebay to get a rough feel for pricing.......

almost $200 for 125 grams.

It looks like frugality dictates me sticking with the $1.00 grocery store H2O2 (3%)!

Cheers,

Mike


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## g_axelsson (Aug 23, 2013)

924T said:


> Do you know of a temperature probe that would withstand the NaCl or HNO3, so that remote monitoring of
> the electrolyte temperature would be possible?


Just seal it in something that resists the acid / environment. You could even use a glass tube that's been sealed (melted) in one end and filled with alcohol, oil or some other liquid that doesn't freeze and shatter the tube.

Göran


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## solar_plasma (Aug 23, 2013)

> Just seal it in something that resists the acid / environment. You could even use a glass tube that's been sealed (melted) in one end and filled with alcohol, oil or some other liquid that doesn't freeze and shatter the tube.



Glass would also be my first choice. Another possibility were to take the teflon foil from a laser printer, make a knot on one end, put the sensor into it, fill with water and make another knot into the other end. Not as pretty as glass, but maybe with a higher temperature conductivity.

If glass, I would not fill it with anything with high vapor pressure and nothing that could react with HNO3 in a dangerous way,if the glass would break, like all flammable liquids would. Better than a liquid, some HNO3-inert metal powder around the sensor and much air in the rest of the tube might be.

if your sensor is made of metal, I would just melt it completely into glas.


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## bswartzwelder (Aug 23, 2013)

Depending on the outside diameter of your probe, Put a sleeve of aquarium airline tubing over it and then heat and smash shut the end. That seals the tubing used in my AP cell very nicely. If you want to put something in it, it really shouldn't matter too awful much (unless you choose nitroglycerine :roll: ). The space you will be filling will not contain more than a very few ml. 

As far as a special section of the forum for newbies, everybody here has been (or still is) a newbie. Also, everyone here who has a REAL interest in recovery/refining knows they will get out of the forum what they put into it. If all they want is to be spoon fed, they should move on. There are enough signature lines from the members admonishing them to read Hoke, read the safety section, read this, read that, ad nauseam, and yet they don't. If anyone of average intelligence reads what has been said to most all newcomers, they should understand the position(s) taken on the forum. Perhaps others will think we need a section just for the newcomers. If so, then let's do it. I (quite respectful of your thoughts on the matter), just really don't see a need.


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## 924T (Aug 26, 2013)

Palladium,

Is there something about the electrical potential of Titanium that would trigger an abnormally high
output of Chlorine gas in a salt cell?

I'm rather curious about that.

Also, I think your using a teabag as an anode bag is just outrageously cool. Did you look up the pore
size for teabags in advance, or did you just wing it on that one?

Cheers,

Mike


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## bswartzwelder (Aug 26, 2013)

SolarPlasma,

Where in a laser printer is the Teflon foil located? I have tor a couple apart, but don't recall seeing anything resembling Teflon. Maybe I saw it and just thought it was nylon or some other man made plastic. My newest laser printer started smoking yesterday, but it only happens when it's actually printing, and stops after the last paper is ejected.


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## 924T (Aug 27, 2013)

I was poking around the internet for stray information about fizzer cells, and came across this
at the Ganoskin.com website:

" Unlike the Wohlwill process, the Fizzer cell can treat anodes containing up to 10 percent silver, and up to 20 percent silver if an imposed alternating current is added. The surface of the anode may need to be scraped free of silver chloride at regular intervals." 

What is an imposed alternating current?

I know what alternating current is, but not how one would impose it on a DC current.

Cheers,

Mike


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## bswartzwelder (Aug 27, 2013)

I would think an imposed alternating current would be like taking a transformer output and connecting it in series with a DC power supply output. The output terminals from a DC power supply are DC (Direct Current with a + terminal and - terminal). This DC power closely resembles a battery which supplies power in one direction only with a + terminal and a - terminal. A transformer, on the other hand, has output terminal or leads which are AC or Alternating Current. They are NOT considered as a + or - since they are AC. 

The transformers I describe below have what is called a center tap. It means that when the transformer is being wound, one end of the wire is brought out and becomes one of the output terminals, lets call it terminal A. Halfway through the winding process, another wire is spliced to the winding wire and also brought out as a lead or terminal. This is the center tap and we'll call it terminal B then the remaining windings are wrapped onto the transformer and the other end of the winding is brought out as terminal C. Connect either one of the terminals (lets use terminal A just to try to keep things simple) to your "cathode". Then, connect terminal B from your transformer to the negative terminal of your DC power supply. We won't use terminal C in this example, so as a safety precaution, it should just be taped up to prevent it from touching anything else. The positive terminal from your DC power supply goes to the anode. Make sure the combined output voltages from the transformer and the DC power supply do not exceed the ratings for either one. 

Don't do it yet, but when everything is turned on, the DC power supply will output DC and the AC power supply (transformer) will output AC. With everything still turned off, connect an oscilloscope to the output terminals of your DC power supply. Turn on the O-scope. You will see a straight line (called the trace) going across the screen from left to right. If the frequency adjusting knob on the O-scope is set to a very slow setting, you may see a dot (with a tail following behind it) going from left to right. This dot (or line) should be in the center of the screen. Now, with the voltage knob set to zero, you can turn on the DC power supply. (If you have a current control knob, it can be set anywhere because there will be "essentially" no current flow.) Watching the screen, you will note that nothing has happened. As you increase the output voltage, the trace will move up on the screen, but it should still be a fairly straight line. (If you were to connect the terminals from the power supply to the O-scope backwards, all that would happen is the trace would go down proportionately with the voltage setting.) The new location of the trace is an indication of how high the voltage has been set. The further up the screen, the higher the voltage. It is possible to "ZOOM" in on the trace and look at it in greater detail. Usually, there is still a little bit of waviness in the trace. This is called ripple (not the drinking type). Ripple is an end product of building a DC power supply which uses the AC line for its power source. Best quality power supplies have almost no ripple, and the output will most closely look like a battery. You will pay a lot for this grade of power supply. 

Now, with everything shut down again, disconnect your DC power supply and connect the transformer terminals A and B to your O-scope input terminals. Radio Shack still sells transformers. They used to be called filament transformers because they supplied the power to light the filaments in vacuum tubes. Years ago, a common voltage was 6.3 VAC. Today, 12.6 VAC with a center tap at 6.3 volts is very common. With the O-scope turned on, apply power to the input of your transformer. Immediately, the trace changes from a straight line to what should appear as a sine wave (assuming the frequency of the trace is adjusted to replicate the frequency of your power line). Most likely it will be a really nasty looking sine wave because the power companies don't want to spend a fortune "conditioning" the power (for all their customers) any more than they have to. If the frequency knob is adjusted correctly, the trace should go from the zero line and curve upward to a maximum value. It will then reverse and start dropping. Once it reaches the zero line, the voltage will continue to drop even further. While it looks like the voltage is dropping, it is actually increasing in the negative direction. Once it has reached its negative limit, it will reverse again and will approach the zero line from the bottom. The amount of deflection in the positive direction and the negative direction should be opposite and pretty much equal. 

Turn everything off, and connect the two power supplies as noted earlier. The two power supplies are connected in SERIES. When turned on, the output at your anode and cathode is a combination of AC and DC. Many people say the AC is riding on top of the DC. The actual voltage seen at the "anode" and "cathode" isn't actually DC OR AC. The actual voltage seen at the anode and cathode is the sum total of what the two power supplies are set at. If the DC power supply is outputting 10 VDC and the AC power supply is outputting 6.3 VAC, then at the instant the line power passes through the zero line, the voltage seen at the anode and cathode is pure DC with a voltage of 10 volts. The transformer is providing a path for the DC to make it from the DC power supply to the load through the anode to cathode, but isn't adding or subtracting anything. As the line power increases to its maximum value, the voltage seen at the anode and cathode is 16.3 volts (10 volts from the DC power supply and 6.3 volts from the transformer). The AC power has reached its peak and reverses. Along its way, it passes through the zero line once again. At that instant, the voltage at the anode and cathode once again becomes 10 volts with nothing being added to or subtracted from by the transformer. The AC power continues its downward journey becoming more and more negative until it reaches the maximum voltage in the negative direction. At this point, the voltage seen by the anode and cathode is 3.7 volts. (10 volts DC which is offset by the negative (-6.3) volts of the transformer = 3.7 volts). Once again, the line power reverses and the transformer voltage decreases until it once again passes through the zero line. In the U.S. this happens 60 times each second and is called 60 Hertz. I believe Europe is on a 50 cycle per second frequency and it is therefor called 50 Hertz. A Hertz is one complete cycle of the AC power, but is usually counted for a period of one second.

There, you have imposed an AC voltage on the output of your DC power supply. In the example above, the DC voltage is greater than the value of the AC voltage, so the anode is always positive to some degree and the cathode is always negative to some degree. If the power supply was set to 6.3 volts (and the transformer was still outputting 6.3 volts), the anode and cathode voltage would swing from 6.3 volts up to 12.6 volts and then down to zero and back to the starting point of 6.3 volts. This can get confusing. Even more so, if the transformer voltage (AC) is higher than the power supply voltage (DC). In that case, the anode and cathode actually change polarity from positive to negative (and vice verse) with every cycle of the line power. 

This sounds complicated, and it can be. I have purposely not mentioned things like effective voltage just to keep it as simple as I could.


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 27, 2013)

Bert,

Thank you taking the time to give that great description. I have read of imposing an AC current on DC in the past, but you have provided a simple, clear explanation that even I could understand.

Thanks,
Dave


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## Andybrum (Aug 27, 2013)

Would a bridge rectifier on an ac power supply do the same?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/4_diodes_bridge_rectifier.jpg


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## butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

A rectifier bridge as above (four diodes) is used change alternating current to full wave Direct current.

I do not think riding an AC sine wave (50 or 60 cycles per second) on a DC signal would be any good with the cell.

Basically that would be using an AC signal with more voltage on one half of the sine-wave.


I believe you would only want the current to reverse only briefly with DC current being the majority of the current applied, basically a DC signal the majority of the time, with short pulses of reversed current over a period of a longer time of the DC signal, a power supply could do this with an electronic circuit to control the waveform, or it could also be done manually with switches, or relays and a timer.

with electronics it is simple to build a power supply that would basically be A DC power supply, but would impose a reversed current (or an AC current) for a very short period (or pulse) of time over a long period of time of the DC signal.


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## Harold_V (Aug 28, 2013)

butcher said:


> I do not think riding an AC sine wave (50 or 60 cycles per second) on a DC signal would be any good with the cell.


While I can't provide citation (it may be in Hoke), superimposing an AC current on top of a DC current is a process accepted in the operation of a Wohwill cell, where silver content may, otherwise, interfere with operation. It is reputed to cause the silver chloride to shed from the anode instead of forming an impervious layer. 

This may be one of the rare exceptions whereby contaminants do not limited the useful life of an electrolyte, as the silver chloride is held in the anode bag, not dissolved in to the electrolyte. 

Harold


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## g_axelsson (Aug 28, 2013)

924T said:


> I was poking around the internet for stray information about fizzer cells, and came across this
> at the Ganoskin.com website:
> 
> " Unlike the Wohlwill process, the Fizzer cell can treat anodes containing up to 10 percent silver, and up to 20 percent silver if an imposed alternating current is added. The surface of the anode may need to be scraped free of silver chloride at regular intervals."
> ...


That should be the http://www.ganoksin.com website. Another great site on the web. 8) 

I have read an old book where they described an electrolytic process. They were using a DC generator and an AC generator in series to drive the cells. If properly adjusted the result is that for a short period each power cycle the voltage is reversed, usually 5-10% or less.
When reversing the voltage the process is reversed too and can create some gas on the anode to break off any crust and also remove polarization effects.

I have read about modern plating supplies that uses this principle to reverse the voltage in short pulses to create better plating quality.

Do not connect a DC power supply with a transformer in series. Most DC power supplies would either be damaged by the reverse voltage or would just block the current (in the rectifying diodes).
You need a specialized power supply or a relay switching between two power supplies, one with reversed voltage.

Göran


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## 924T (Sep 3, 2013)

g_axelsson,

I completely missed that that site name is ganoksin------------thanks for catching that!  

I've never used Luer connectors before, and will need them to attempt to duplicate Palladium's 2-tank
fizzer cell. I have been looking around the web tonight at Luer fittings and connectors, but there are so
many types that I haven't been able to figure out which would be the correct ones to use to connect
1/4" plastic tubing between 2 plastic buckets, with an inline filter. 

So, I'm definitely open to suggestions and advice.

Cheers,

Mike


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## 924T (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm also wondering if Tin (as in i.c. chip legs, or IDE socket pins) would clog up the electrolyte?

Tin and Lead appear to be arch enemies of refining solutions.

Cheers,

Mike


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## 924T (Sep 10, 2013)

Having now reread the 2 Shor patents for the Simplicity refining system, with it having been 3-4 years since
I last read them, several things stand out to me:

I had read those prior to joining the GRF. This time around, I understood everything written in those patents,
which was really fun.

The optimum solution temperature for the Sodium Chloride is 180F. For Ammonium Chloride it is 160F-180F.
However, Peter Shor did mention that the process will also work at ambient temperatures.

Regarding fouling of the pores of the Coors cup that Shor uses, it was mentioned that as the pH of the NaCl electrolyte
rises due to the formation of NaOH, undesirable Hydroxides are formed that can foul the pores of the cup.
The second patent recommends maintaining a pH of 1.0-7.0.

However, the first patent was initially designed to be a NaCl and HCl electrolyte mixture, which would have kept the pH
below 7.0, and sure sounds a lot to me like the approach to using another halide, Iodine, specifically Povidone,
which from what I've read works better with HCl added, and a certain pH level maintained.....

Reading between the lines, it appears to me the exclusively NaCl electrolyte route might have been taken for marketing
purposes, so the device (cell) could be advertised as operating with no dangerous chemicals.

The move to a mostly Ammonium chloride electrolyte in the second patent was to prevent coating the Gold anode
with a film of AgCl, which severely decreased the efficiency of the reaction, a problem with the NaCl electrolyte.

Shor also found that when there was more than 2-3 oz. Au dissolved into a gallon of solution, the process became
ineffective.

So, I'm thinking if I run small amounts of Au like Palladium has done, monitor and maintain the electrolyte pH at 6.0
by the addition of very small amounts of HCl, I should be able to use NaCl as the electrolyte with very few problems.

If the Au anode does become coated with AgCl, just how tough is it remove? Can it be brushed off with a stiff
toothbrush, or does it need to be scraped off?

Cheers,

Mike


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## IdahoMole (May 26, 2016)

I have decided to build one of these per Palladium's diagram. It is inexpensive and I should be able to run it in the back yard without much trouble (ie. neighbors). I have sourced the syringe filter. My question is this. The filter requires 1/8" tubing. Is that adequate or should it be a larger diameter? I plan on using two.


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## blackwolf365 (Jul 17, 2019)

hello all, apologies for the long absence. i myself have been looking into this shor system. from what i can see, it does work, but LIKE HELL will i pay that much for it. especially when i can, with resources like this forum available to seek help and advice from, go to lowes and/or wal-mart and BUILD one myself for a whole lot cheaper.

now i may, admittedly, not be anywhere near and expert here; but damn. all you need to do is surf the net a little bit, do some research and you can find all you need to build it your own self. even tweek the process, or so i suspect, at a point when you have enough knowledge and experience to do so.

shor has a vid of the system on youtube and it shows the whole thing off. well, to an extent. i daresay that the shor system is for stary-eyed dreamers looking to make a buck. why would it be priced so high otherwise?

and the repleacement parts for it on the website, site: you can find the components from other sources for a fraction of the price. its crazy.


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