# Take A Guess



## joekbit (Aug 23, 2016)

Well like the title says, any guesses? 2 lbs 6 oz of gold plated test pin sleeves. 1/4 gram per sleeve is about 4000 of them  

The whole lot going into AP as soon as I finish this post. Still have about 6 more pounds of them. But due to the shear volume I'm only doing what is posted for now.


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 23, 2016)

I'll guess 2 lbs. 6 ounces. What do I win if I'm the closest? :lol: 

Dave


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## joekbit (Aug 23, 2016)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I'll guess 2 lbs. 6 ounces. What do I win if I'm the closest? :lol:
> 
> Dave


You get personal satisfaction :lol: Just put them in, well 1lb of them, thought I could get the whole pile in but not going to fit. 30 minutes and I have foils all over.


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## anachronism (Aug 23, 2016)

Maybe you missed what Dave was saying? Hehe


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## joekbit (Aug 23, 2016)

silly silly silly


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## Lou (Aug 23, 2016)

I don't remember those being mind blowing


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## joekbit (Aug 26, 2016)

Lou said:


> I don't remember those being mind blowing


1st filtration of AP yielded 1/2 gram of nice powder, 2 more filtration's of the AP yielded about the same quantity and quality of foils as the first. Dry weight about 3 grams.



The inner gold and a lot of pins did not yield to the AP. So a good hot rinse and 600 ml HNO3 at about 20% was used to finish the job, foils in thee jar.




So far it's looking real good. This is from 1 lb, still have the other 1 1/2 lbs to go.


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## Geo (Aug 27, 2016)

I would test the solution in the last picture with stannous chloride.


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## Lou (Aug 27, 2016)

So six grams/kg?


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 27, 2016)

A dry weight on the foils will be high.


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## joekbit (Aug 27, 2016)

Lou said:


> So six grams/kg?


Lou

According to my calculations, that should be about right. I did some in HNO3 during testing and the 6 grams was based on that, but the cost in HNO3 was almost 1/2 the recovery value. To much in my opinion.

By going with AP first then a final pass with HNO3 i cut the HNO3 cost by 75%, and it's a much cleaner outcome.
The dry foil weight is above 14k. 

The bad part, "my vacuum filter broke", done, history, no fixing it.


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## joekbit (Aug 27, 2016)

goldsilverpro said:


> A dry weight on the foils will be high.



Based on recovery to foil weight I'm above 60% doing it this way


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## etack (Aug 27, 2016)

Are these pins ones without the spring or push pin? 

I had several pounds of these run with different styles of feet and springs they ran in the .9 to 1.1g#

Eric


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## joekbit (Aug 31, 2016)

etack said:


> Are these pins ones without the spring or push pin?
> 
> I had several pounds of these run with different styles of feet and springs they ran in the .9 to 1.1g#
> 
> Eric



Well, i have both, what you see is just the sleeve that the spring loaded pin would be slipped into.


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## joekbit (Sep 1, 2016)

Ok the final result.

AP 2.3 gal, HNO3 1ltr, total gold recovery from the 2.5 lbs = 4.05 grams. To me that's good. Now all i have to do is the rest of them. :roll: 3lbs 4 oz of the pins. 

Based on my testing it should be about 1/2 oz total recovery. The yield per 100 grams of pins was .4+ using HNO3. Real messy, so I'm going the AP way followed with HNO3. This seems to work best, costs far less and the yield is much higher

Eric, the pins you mentioned are the next 3.25 lbs. They do produce a higher gold quantity and using the same procedure as the first 2.5 lbs of sleeves my recovery increase should be proportionate. I hope,, :lol: 

Next


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## Topher_osAUrus (Sep 2, 2016)

Did you test that nitric after you used it immediately following ap?
Geo asked, I didnt see your reply though
You will probably find some gold there. Especially if you didn't incinerate after AP.


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## anachronism (Sep 2, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> Did you test that nitric after you used it immediately following ap?
> Geo asked, I didnt see your reply though
> You will probably find some gold there. Especially if you didn't incinerate after AP.



Hi Toph 

Could you please explain your thinking behind your comments please? How much gold do you think could be in that Nitric and what would lead you to come to that conclusion?


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## Topher_osAUrus (Sep 2, 2016)

Acid peroxide uses HCl.
Its very hard to rinse residual chlorides with just hot water.
Rinsing with water, then hitting it with nitric will have enough chlorides to make a weak ar (reverse ar, i suppose)

The green solution has a yellow tint to it, or so it appears to me anyways, I am not sure how much gold is in there..but, none the less, I am quite sure theres at least a little bit.

To go from AP to nitric, you must incinerate to drive off the clinging chlorides.


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## joekbit (Sep 3, 2016)

anachronism said:


> Topher_osAUrus said:
> 
> 
> > Did you test that nitric after you used it immediately following ap?
> ...



Sorry guys for the slow response. Yes I tested the HNO3, and yes it is positive. I fully expected that result. I keep my HNO3 solutions separate from AP and AR. Each type solution has it's own cement tank. I do not mix them.

At this point I'm taking care of the AP in a long term setting tank, so far 1 gallon has produced .3 grams. This AP was used only on these sleeves, nothing else. 

My recovery at this point is over 4 grams from the 2.5 lbs and I still have the HNO3 to finish. My original thought, and I'm not sure if I stated it, was about 6 grams from the 2.5 lbs. At the current rate I should be close to that.

The next bit of good news, It seems we have about 100 computers that have been sitting for 15+ years dated around 1986. Just went to the other lot today to look at them. Opened one up, and WOW, 80386DX-16 processors in all of them


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## Topher_osAUrus (Sep 3, 2016)

joekbit said:


> ... Yes I tested the HNO3, and yes it is positive. I fully expected that result. I keep my HNO3 solutions separate from AP and AR. Each type solution has it's own cement tank. I do not mix them.



Good man!

How much gold do you think went into solution on the nitric run?


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## joekbit (Sep 3, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:



> joekbit said:
> 
> 
> > ... Yes I tested the HNO3, and yes it is positive. I fully expected that result. I keep my HNO3 solutions separate from AP and AR. Each type solution has it's own cement tank. I do not mix them.
> ...


 Not much, test was weak but positive, maybe 1/2 gram. I think 1/4 gram might be more realistic. There's no real way to know without weighing the HNO3 before and after use and going through a pile of math.


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## g_axelsson (Sep 4, 2016)

joekbit said:


> The next bit of good news, It seems we have about 100 computers that have been sitting for 15+ years dated around 1986. Just went to the other lot today to look at them. Opened one up, and WOW, 80386DX-16 processors in all of them


That could be a good sale for the retro computing crowd. 5.25" floppy drives seems to go for $10 to $30. Motherboards $10-$40 and so on... You need to treat them with care though, use proper ESD protection for motherboards and keeping dirt out of the drives.
ISA cards could also be valuable, sold a creative sound card two weeks ago for $25.

Hard drives could also be valuable, depending on model. If they are the old MFM drives then I would say sell them.

Göran


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## anachronism (Sep 4, 2016)

I completely agree with Goran. Don't waste the opportunity to buy a load of gold bearing product by trying to refine this before having a really good attempt at selling the components. You will make far far more than the gold value, then use that cash (which is pure profit) to buy a lot of refining feedstock.


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## joekbit (Sep 4, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> joekbit said:
> 
> 
> > The next bit of good news, It seems we have about 100 computers that have been sitting for 15+ years dated around 1986. Just went to the other lot today to look at them. Opened one up, and WOW, 80386DX-16 processors in all of them
> ...


Not going to happen. They are piled up, as in shoved into a pile by a front loader, exposed to the weather for 15 years. Rust, dirt, rain, snow, oxidation on every part. I am hoping that some where in that pile by some miracle parts have survived.


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## g_axelsson (Sep 4, 2016)

joekbit said:


> Not going to happen. They are piled up, as in shoved into a pile by a front loader, exposed to the weather for 15 years. Rust, dirt, rain, snow, oxidation on every part. I am hoping that some where in that pile by some miracle parts have survived.


Too bad, now it's just metal scrap.  

Göran


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## anachronism (Sep 4, 2016)

Ahhh that's sad!


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## joekbit (Sep 5, 2016)

anachronism said:


> Ahhh that's sad!


Yes it is  I will give the my partner some credit though, he may have left them to the elements but at least he didn't just throw them in with mixed scrap metal. So it's not a total loss


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## glorycloud (Sep 5, 2016)

> Not going to happen. They are piled up, as in shoved into a pile by a front loader, exposed to the weather for 15 years. Rust, dirt, rain, snow, oxidation on every part. I am hoping that some where in that pile by some miracle parts have survived.



Well the good news is that rust, dirt, rain, snow and oxidation wont effect the
gold on their 386 processors!! 8)


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## joekbit (Sep 5, 2016)

Trying my hand with collectors. Put one of my DEC j - 11 (JAWS) chips up for sale. Had them for quite some time


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## g_axelsson (Sep 5, 2016)

That is a really nice chip! I had two of those in my big batch a year ago, traded one but decided to hang on to the other one. The only CPU I kept out of 3000+ CPU:s.  
Without checking prices I would guess it will yield $25-$35 but could go higher.

Göran


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## glorycloud (Sep 6, 2016)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/collectors-edition-IC-Chip-DEC-J-11-JAWS-/252527018076?hash=item3acbc8805c:g:7rIAAOSwMgdXzYI1

In case anyone wants to own it. 8)


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## joekbit (Sep 9, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> That is a really nice chip! I had two of those in my big batch a year ago, traded one but decided to hang on to the other one. The only CPU I kept out of 3000+ CPU:s.
> Without checking prices I would guess it will yield $25-$35 but could go higher.
> 
> Göran



Ya it's a sight to behold, after doing more google than i can think i only found 1 that was sold for $83 usd out of Japan over a year ago. So Im asking 75 for now.


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## joekbit (Sep 9, 2016)

glorycloud said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/collectors-edition-IC-Chip-DEC-J-11-JAWS-/252527018076?hash=item3acbc8805c:g:7rIAAOSwMgdXzYI1
> 
> In case anyone wants to own it. 8)


thanks for the assist


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## g_axelsson (Sep 9, 2016)

joekbit said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > That is a really nice chip! I had two of those in my big batch a year ago, traded one but decided to hang on to the other one. The only CPU I kept out of 3000+ CPU:s.
> ...


There is anther one on eBay now, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-J-11-57-19400-04-Rare-Gold-IC-CPU-Collectible-DC334-DC335-/191750782616 and that is only $50.
This one didn't sell. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262567625963?rmvSB=true

You could also try to advertise it on cpu-world, http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/

I think you are a bit optimistic, but with ebay you never know.

Göran


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 9, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> There is anther one on eBay now, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-J-11-57-19400-04-Rare-Gold-IC-CPU-Collectible-DC334-DC335-/191750782616 and that is only $50.
> 
> 
> Göran



How do people with feedback like this stay on ebay?

Those are way over priced IMHO.

Gosh knows how many of those I have sold and refined.


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## joekbit (Sep 11, 2016)

FYI

The pins I posted in this forum, back on the first page with the springs. Well I tested the springs or better stated I took 10 grams of the gold springs and processed them with AR. Yield was 1/10th of a gram.

Also, some of them are non ferrous, I found this interesting so I did some research. Here is a link that may be helpful for solving the strange reactions that can take place with non ferrous materials.

http://springipedia.com/material-non-ferrous-metals.asp


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## anachronism (Sep 11, 2016)

joekbit said:


> FYI
> 
> The pins I posted in this forum, back on the first page with the springs. Well I tested the springs or better stated I took 10 grams of the gold springs and processed them with AR. Yield was 1/10th of a gram.



I've done a fair bit of recovery/refining in 5 years. One thing the many things I have learned is that the losses involved in processing a 1g batch are the same as for processing a 100g batch, assuming that the same equipment is used for both batches. That's why I shy away completely from refining anything under a certain amount because it simply isn't efficient. I posted this prior to asking my question to provide some clarity as to meaning behind the question. May I ask how you can be certain that your yield figure here is correct to any order of magnitude given the tiny sample size? I fear that unless you are using analytical equipment such as an AAS that the figures you have in front of you are wildly inaccurate. If you are using an AAS to obtain these figures then please accept both my apologies and my admiration.


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## 4metals (Sep 11, 2016)

Even with instrumentation a sample size of one piece is risky. Taking a sample of 100 processed pieces and dividing your result by 100 would be much more accurate. This is especially true for electroplated and thick film circuits where manufacturing inconsistencies can cause variation. 

You would hate to place a value on a lot of plated pins only to find out the one you selected for your accurate analysis was plated to a thickness at the very highest end of the specification. Then again, you would love to place the value of a lot if the one you selected was at the low range of the spec. So either end can make or break your day. 

Larger sample size = more consistent results.


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## joekbit (Sep 12, 2016)

anachronism said:


> joekbit said:
> 
> 
> > FYI
> ...



I agree. I just had some that i removed a long time ago in a small zip lock bag and wanted to see if they were going to be worth the effort. I normally do 100 gram test runs.

As to the AAS, no, but the powder was twice refined and weighed.


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## Lou (Sep 12, 2016)

With a 5 decimal point scale, 1/10 of a gram (100.00 mg) is easily sufficient for gravimetric work on gold.

Often times on those little lots, you can also do a gold titration with hydroquinone. 

Only time I find much use for AA or ICP on gold and silver is if measuring by difference, or if part of a multicomponent solution.

Otherwise, silver nitrate solutions from bullion, sterling, anything above say 70% w/o significant Pd is by Volhard-gravimetric dispensing is the way to go.

As for gold, AA is useful for gold cyanide solutions, but if you want a dead on answer, evaporate an aliquot of gold cyanide solution down and destroy the cyanide, then fire assay the gold powder. If there is not much silver, that isn't even necessary. The gold can be weighed in a Gooch crucible after annealing at 550 C. 

Lou


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## anachronism (Sep 12, 2016)

A perfect explanation of course Lou but how does that translate for the average hobby refiner? It's pretty technical.


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## g_axelsson (Sep 12, 2016)

anachronism said:


> A perfect explanation of course Lou but how does that translate for the average hobby refiner? It's pretty technical.


Not every refiner here is a hobby refiner and some hobby refiners have access to advanced instrumentation. I always value to see how it is done in the industry even if I don't have access to the same equipment.

What was it that was too technical? I found it quite easy to read and if I don't understand or remember it provides a good start to do a search. For example the "gold titration with hydroquinone" pops up this thread where it is explained in greater detail.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=15056

Göran


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## anachronism (Sep 12, 2016)

Lou said:


> Otherwise, silver nitrate solutions from bullion, sterling, anything above say 70% w/ significant Pd is by Volhard-gravimetric dispensing is the way to go.



This one did for me Goran, which is why I was asking.


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## g_axelsson (Sep 12, 2016)

anachronism said:


> Lou said:
> 
> 
> > Otherwise, silver nitrate solutions from bullion, sterling, anything above say 70% w/ significant Pd is by Volhard-gravimetric dispensing is the way to go.
> ...


Without knowing but with a bit of googling I would say that Lou ment...
Assaying silver nitrate solutions for silver content is best done by Volhard titration using gravimetric dispensing.
Gravimetric dispensing measure the weight of the reagent in contrast to volumetric dispensing where the volume is used. The advantage I see is that it is easy to measure the weight of a beaker empty, with the unknown solution and after you add the reagent so there is no need for expensive burettes filled with reagents. Just take three measurements and the rest can be calculated.

I'm sure Lou would correct me if I'm wrong.

Göran


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## Lou (Sep 12, 2016)

So, let's hijack dear ol' Joe's thread a bit more than I have and go into some detail...

FIRSTLY, I corrected my post above as I meant *without* Pd, or indeed Pb and Hg as well, as both interfere by forming thiocyanate compounds/complexes (in the case of Pd, a confusing orange one). Suffice it to say, Hg is likely not present if the stuff has been melted, eh? 

Suppose Joekbits wants to analyze high grade silver and he needs to do a bit of analyses, then he would follow 4metals' advice and use the Volhard Method, a very very good method for high grade silver. 

I had made a modified, faster version/more precise/accurate version of 4metals' Volhard assay. It's still not quite as good as the RSD you get with an automatic titrator, but for having human hands involved...I'm a happy camper. I think it's off roughly $100/$100,000 which is my litmus test for a good method vs a bad method: how many dollars per $100,000? ICP and AA can be several thousand dollars off!

What I did was use a bottle top dispensette:
https://www.brandtech.com/product/dispensette-organic/

to dispense onto a balance that weighs 1210 g to the mg. 

I ballpark how much silver is in the thief sample by XRF and enter that in, and then dispense in 98% of the theoretical amount of titrant as a ~90-100 mL bolus into the titrating flask. 

So after you do all your proofs and standardizations, and get the titrant's density at the temperature of the titration room, you take your duplicate or triplicate sample and pump in a weight of your titrant, enter that weight and convert back into mL in Excel. Then you can line up all of your flasks and finish them with the last few mL with a very precise micro burette. Even on small lots, I always do a duplicate to check the disparity between the two. On multi thousand ounce lots, I usually do 3-4 to check the RSD. 

In that fashion, if the samples are dissolved and prepped (labeled, lined up in a grid/ordered), one can get about 30 samples done in duplicate with two proofs in the beginning and two proofs done in the span of an hour. 

As for destroying the cyanide for analysis...it's basically fuming with c. sulfuric acid. So obviously precautions for not just HCN, but also SO3/H2SO4 fume (far more dangerous in my personal experience with oleum). It works well if no Pb or Pt are present in the cyanide. Zn, Pd, Ag, Cu, all of those stay in the solution when it is diluted and the gold filtered off on a quantitative paper for ignition or fire assay.

One can always fire assay their gold cyanide solution straight as is too.


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 12, 2016)

I am so stealing that technique! You just improved a thread I've been working on. Thank you for sharing that Lou. 8) 

Dave


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## Lou (Sep 12, 2016)

Which, the sulfuric or the titration?


Send me a personal email and I'll go into some details.


and by "done" I mean you have them titrated to an endpoint and the data put into excel.

Then you can crunch all the numbers.


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 12, 2016)

Lou said:


> Which, the sulfuric or the titration?


The gravimetric dispensing.

Dave


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## 4metals (Sep 12, 2016)

> With a 5 decimal point scale, 1/10 of a gram (100.00 mg) is easily sufficient for gravimetric work on gold.



Keep in mind most of our members are working in buckets and pyrex coffee pots! A decent 5 decimal balance and the vibration free balance table to perch it on is pricey. These guys prefer a slight breeze to a blower and a hood and likely will never set up a real lab. The best I would hope for is a buret and some volumetric glassware. Even some fairly decent sized refiners don't have a balance that will weigh 1200 grams with a 1 mg. sensitivity.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 12, 2016)

4metals said:


> > With a 5 decimal point scale, 1/10 of a gram (100.00 mg) is easily sufficient for gravimetric work on gold.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind most of our members are working in buckets and pyrex coffee pots! A decent 5 decimal balance and the vibration free balance table to perch it on is pricey. These guys prefer a slight breeze to a blower and a hood and likely will never set up a real lab. The best I would hope for is a buret and some volumetric glassware. Even some fairly decent sized refiners don't have a balance that will weigh 1200 grams with a 1 mg. sensitivity.



As far as scales go a good alternative is a set of scales used for reloading ammunition. I used the set I had 25 years ago. And it wouldn't be that hard to set up an excel sheet for conversions if one needed it. Actually after doing a search on Ebay they cost less than the usual route of buying a set of scales like I did mine on Ebay probably because there is a larger market for them in the reloading community.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=greenlee+powder+scale&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XPowder+scale.TRS0&_nkw=Powder+scale&_sacat=0

And I like my buckets. :mrgreen:

But I will have to admit the best decision I ever made in this field was buying a bulk load of beakers from 10ml to 4L.


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## Shark (Sep 12, 2016)

4metals said:


> > With a 5 decimal point scale, 1/10 of a gram (100.00 mg) is easily sufficient for gravimetric work on gold.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind most of our members are working in buckets and pyrex coffee pots! A decent 5 decimal balance and the vibration free balance table to perch it on is pricey. These guys prefer a slight breeze to a blower and a hood and likely will never set up a real lab. The best I would hope for is a buret and some volumetric glassware. Even some fairly decent sized refiners don't have a balance that will weigh 1200 grams with a 1 mg. sensitivity.



I agree with 4Metals to a great extent. I also enjoy reading about how things are done properly in a well equipped lab, even if I don't understand everything being said. I also try to reach for some of the equipment when I can and try to learn to use it. This is the next piece I will be studying up on if I can ever get this furnace work a little better, and finish up on the copper cell. I do have the stopper for it as well.




I just hope those knowledgeable member's don't get to tired of pushing us small time people into the right way of doing things. May they continue to teach the right way to get things done, as well as a work around for those who don't have the proper equipment as well.


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## 4metals (Sep 12, 2016)

> I just hope those knowledgeable member's don't get too tired of pushing us small time people into the right way of doing things.



Small time people may be your words but they would never be mine. I respect our members whose hobby pursuit of refining really pushes the envelope. I came from a world of well equipped labs and glass lined reactors and acid on tap. But to try to meld the two disciplines into one has taught me to better communicate the science. When I go into a room with a bunch of chemists I can detail a procedure and it may not sound like something I would post here on the forum but it will be communicated in a common language and it really isn't all that difficult. But to see a hobbyist working on the chemistry and realize that high school chemistry was his or her extent of the science, and then to be able to get the science across in a way that some meaningful progress can come of it, now that is progress in my book. 

I guess it all comes down to realizing that as much as I know the science, I too can talk first hand of some whopper spills I've had and admit I often come home with purple fingers. It's simply what I do and I wouldn't trade it.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 13, 2016)

4metals said:


> > I just hope those knowledgeable member's don't get too tired of pushing us small time people into the right way of doing things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It just shows you are human and can make mistakes too and actually makes your customers trust you more when you admit to some of your mistakes.


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