# Re: Why Red Aqua Regia ??



## prospector_pete (May 3, 2020)

im hoping someone can help me with a simil;ar problem . i had some solution from when i did 2 kilos of mixed ic chips. the solution was a dark mess which i couldnt do anything with , so i dropped what i hope was gold by using copper.
then i put the black silt into AR . i was extremely delighted when my AR turned a lovely dark orange and when tested with stannous , it immidiately gave a solid black result, i thought wow it must be really concentrated with gold. i have had issues precipitating for years tho , its the final stage of gold recovery that i always have problems with . so i plled out my tiny 250 ml beakers to try several different attempts at dropping gold.
in one beaker i put distilled water on heat and added iron sulfate . i left it on heat for about 10 minutes to try and disolve the powder , once disolved i put hcl to make it go green as id seen on videos . also hokes book talks about adding hcl to iron sulfate.when i poured the iron sulfate solution into the sample of AR , it turned brown and hasnt changed , nothing dropped.

in a second beaker i put AR to almost the top and added smb powder. i kept getting what i thought was either red or brown bubbles . as id never heard of red bubbles , i assumed it must be gold dropping then redisolving. which puzzles me as i had used urea untill no more reaction and there was even a little bit that wouldnt disolve . so i thought how could there possibly be any free nitric.

in a third beaker i put a small amount of AR then added smb which was disolved in water first and warmed up to help disolve . once i added it to the solution it went deep red.
im totally lost , i have no idea why or how it can turn red.

i still have half a coffee pot of the AR , which by the way turned light green after i diluted it to twice its volume and added urea.
what should i do with the remaining solution ?
i would really appreciate your help guys


----------



## FrugalRefiner (May 3, 2020)

My first suggestion would be that you test your solution with stannous chloride. I didn't see any mention of testing, so I'm assuming you did not do any. Colors of solutions are not a good indicator of whether you have gold in solution.

From what you've said, I would guess you added too much nitric acid. Urea will not eliminate excess nitrate. It will react with NOx in solution, but it will not destroy nitrate ions.

If you have any gold in your solution, I'm guessing it is a small amount. Testing with stannous will answer that question.

If you find you have gold in solution, I would suggest again using copper to cement it out, leaving all the other garbage in the solution.

Dave


----------



## prospector_pete (May 3, 2020)

hi everybody . 
i dropped gold by using copper . i was left with a thick black silt.when tested with stannous , it immidiately went jet black
i thoroughly washed the silt with the usual wash process , then i put it in hcl and gradually added small amounts of nitric.
i ended up with a lovely orange colour and i thought wow this must be really concentrated with gold , as i assmued it would be because i had a lot of black silt.
i then used urea till there was no more reaction . i actually had a little urea settled that wouldnt desolve , so i knew there couldnt be free nitric.
i tried 3 ways to precipitate.
i had 3 beakers . in one i put the smb powderand i had coloured bubbles , i couldnt work out if they were redish or brownish. i assumed it was brown since ive never heard of red . and i thought for some reason my gold was redisolving.

in the second beaker i added smb which i first disolved in water . , that went bright red

and the third i tried iron sulfate . ive been trying iron sulfate many times and cant get it right and i cant find any recipes for its use. i see lots of recipes for copperas whic i know is the same thing but its more of green crystals/powder , whereas my iron sulfate is more white.
anyhow i went by the directions in hokes book , i added some hcl to make it go lime green.
but every single time i try using it , the solution goes brown but no gold drops . all that happens is the undesolved iron sulfate settles on the bottom.
so my questions here are .....
why did one of the solutions go bright red . and stayed red.
why did the next have red bubbles and nothing has precipitated from that either .
and thirdly can someone please tell me how to use iron sulfate


----------



## Yggdrasil (May 3, 2020)

Hi.
You need to calm down, it is against the forum rules to double post.
And even though these questions are not identical they are close enough.
Keep your posts in one section, it is easier to get the hang of what you have been doing and follow 
the progress then. This make it easier to give you proper advise too.
Have you done as you were advised and tested if you have gold in solution at all?


----------



## FrugalRefiner (May 3, 2020)

As Yggdrasil said, calm down and stop posting the same question multiple times. You've posted essentially the same question in three different threads now. I've combined two of them here, and left the other one where it was because the answer I gave referred to posts in that thread.

Find a section to post your question, post it one time, then be patient and wait for people to give you an answer. Posting the same question in multiple places is against forum rules and may get you banned. You can read the forum's rules in Board Policy-------This should be read by everyone.

Dave


----------



## niks neims (May 3, 2020)

prospector_pete said:


> hi everybody .
> i dropped gold by using copper . i was left with a thick black silt.
> i thoroughly washed the silt with the usual wash process , then i put it in hcl and gradually added small amounts of nitric.
> i ended up with a lovely orange colour and i thought wow this must be really concentrated with gold , as i assmued it would be because i had a lot of black silt.
> ...



I think you are using wrong kind of iron sulfate, you need this stuff:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(II)_sulfate

Brown crystals won't work, haven't heard about white.... green, heptahydrate, works great, love precipitating with it, haven't had any problems whatsoever


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

im in australia , we cant get copperas here . or even ferrous sulfate . iron sulfate is my only option
this was in the gardening section of the hardware store . its what they sell here in australia . our equivilent to copperas


----------



## Yggdrasil (May 4, 2020)

As far as I know they are all the same, just different names.
FeSO4 named: Green Vitriol, Copperas, Iron s*u*lfate and so on.
BUT it has to be fresh and not oxidated, which means a nice green color.

Edited typing error


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

ok im sorry for double posting. 

when hcl is added it goes green which is how ive seen copperas used .
can someone plz give me directions on how to use this


----------



## Yggdrasil (May 4, 2020)

I have never used it, but due to the color it may be dehydrated or have some additives to it.
You need to read the labels thoroughly.

Added:
You still haven't told if you have tested it for gold in the first place?
What did your test show?

One thing is sure: If there is no gold in it, there will be no gold to precipitate out of solution.


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

im certain that its exactly the same as any other iron sulfate , just different packaging.
in any case , if i could please have the directions to use the iron sulfate you know of ., 
i will try those directions with this and i will soon see if its ok to use


----------



## Yggdrasil (May 4, 2020)

Ok it became black.
If it is denoxed and else ready, 
we need to establish that it is black due to concentrated gold and not something else.
Take a drop and dilute it with 10 drops of water.
Take the test again and tell us what it shows.
Pictures would be nice.


----------



## Yggdrasil (May 4, 2020)

prospector_pete said:


> im certain that its exactly the same as any other iron sulfate , just different packaging.
> in any case , if i could please have the directions to use the iron sulfate you know of .,
> i will try those directions with this and i will soon see if its ok to use


As I said before I have never used Copperas.
There are loads of posts describing its use so search and you will find it.


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

ok you might not have used copperas , but have you used iron sulfate ?.
if you havent , is there somebody else who has.
please i just want a rough description on how much to use , does it need to be filtered , heated , etc


----------



## Yggdrasil (May 4, 2020)

My point from earlier still goes:
Copperas aka Iron sulfate aka Ferrous sulfate aka Green Vitriol is the same.
And even if you had a completely black test with Stannous I would recommend to dilute it and see what color it will be then, it should become a beautiful purple.

Because it there is no gold dissolved in the solution there is no gold to precipitate.

We can't be holding your hand through this, you have to do the work yourself so you learn things.
Search the forum, it is all there.


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

wow . i thought this is what forums were for . to ask advice.
you make it sound like a crime that i ask for some direction here .
i have already been experimenting prior to asking on here . i have read hokes book and tried to follow the directions .

i ask here for a little help and you jump down my throat , how dare i ask for advice . what was i thinking


----------



## Yggdrasil (May 4, 2020)

It was not intended that way, *but* you have been given advice on the topic you asked for. 
It does not seem you are happy about the answer so you ask again. 
So then you have been given information on how to find the information needed.
And now you are unhappy about that to.
Well I'm out of this thread.


----------



## butcher (May 4, 2020)

prospector_pete,
the white powder in your picture is not copperas, FeSO4, ferrous sulfate, Iron (II) sulfate, or fresh salts of iron sulfate, or green vitriol, or the fresh green heptahydrate crystals (hydrated with 7 molecules of water) but a dehydrated form of the original salt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(II)_sulfate

Garden centers or dietary supplements often sell iron sulfate in the form of ferric sulfate, iron (III) Sulfate Fe2(SO4)3 which is where the fresh copperas has been decomposed by exposure to air heat or oxygen.
A dehydrated form of iron sulfate powders which upon exposure to air, it oxidizes to form a white or corrosive brown-yellow coating of "basic ferric sulfate", which is an adduct of iron(III) oxide and iron(III) sulfate:

12 FeSO4 + 3 O2 → 4 Fe2(SO4)3 + 2 Fe2O3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(III)_sulfate


Copperas is easy to make and keep fresh and store, it can be used in testing for gold and precipitating gold from solution, I have made several posts on how to make and use it... 
You can easily make copperas or ferrous sulfate with iron metal and diluted battery acid 10% H2SO4.

Use the search function with the keywords you find here on this page and you will find many posts on the subject, refine your search with authors, and the keywords you find in that search for more information on the subject...

https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=copperas&terms=all&author=butcher&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

As a bonus to your search I suggest you do some study on Harold's advice on using copperas, He explains some very gifted techniques in testing for gold and the platinum group metals in the spot dish...

The forum is for asking questions and we all try to help, but we cannot teach or put the information in your head. We can answer some questions, but without you doing the hard work of study on your own the answers to a million questions will lead you to nowhere, where a study of the subject, may lead to more questions, but you gain a wealth of knowledge along on your journey to becoming more successful...


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

ok thankyou for your decent reply and for the info.
the iron sulfate i have is the only thing sold in garden sections of any store in the city i live in. 
i will try making it as per the link you gave me .
i appreciate your help


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

please dont jump down my throat ,
ive read posts on this forum until i have square eys.
and in response to your reply i figure ok i will just make my own iron sulfate and abandon the stuff i bought. ( im taking your advice)
but despite looking at the links u provided , i cant find directions on how to make my own , atleast not in lamens terms.

can i please bother someone for directions on how to make copperas, and then how to use it. 
in lamens terms please


----------



## jimdoc (May 4, 2020)

Making "Copperas" - ferrous sulphate

help

Sulfurdioxide, sodium sulfite, sodium-meta-bisulfite


----------



## butcher (May 4, 2020)

If you read and study you will find this in much more detail, and you would learn a million other things you do not know now and maybe struggling to learn.

You will not learn to crawl or walk if you always try to have someone hold your hand, sooner or later you will need to learn to walk on your own and study on your own or you will never learn to run...

Put clean soft iron (as pure as possible) in an acid-proof and heatable pot.
Put 10% H2SO4 sulfuric acid in the pot.
The green solution formed when heated is copperas or dissolved salts of iron and the acid called ferrous sulfate.
Evaporating the solution will give you the fresh green crystals.

The crystals should be stored wet under the concentrated acidic solution, HDPE plastic bottle to help keep crystals from oxidizing...

if you study you will have a better understanding, and not just jumping onto the next problem, wondering what to do next or why things do not work the way you think they should.

Testing the gold with crystals in a spot dish gives a brown ring of precipitated gold, which can remove gold from the solution, as Harold suggested we can move the gold barren solution to another well of the dish and proceed to test for some other metal or platinum group (now with gold removed to disrupt the results...
You have to read more on your own to find the whole story.

precipitating gold copperas can be used as a selective reagent for the metal. to learn more details you will have to let go of my hand and learn to crawl so you can learn to walk, and before you know it you will be running a successful gold refining operation.

Any good prospector worth his salt knows how to study to do his due diligence and hard work to find the gold, lazy prospectors are always asking someone else to show them where it is (or how to find it), which one do you think finds the gold?

I have square eyes too I have read every single post on this forum, I have made a few thousands of those posts myself, many like this one trying to help someone else learn or get them to learn how to study on their own to learn a few of the things I have learned from the years of hard work.


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

thankyou so much for your reply and for the info .
i will give it a go and try making my own

but can i ask , you and everyone else to stop making reference to me holding hands or asking people to do the work for me.

ive already stated that i have read and read and read , then i read some more . i am trying to do the hard yards myself .
im not execting an easy handout here . im happy to research and figure things out for myself . but its no good if i dont know how . ive typed in how to make iron sulfate . and . a how to make copperas . . 
i only saw snippets of info . i was looking for the full process , hoping someone had previously posted how to do it.

'im tired of people assuming im lazy . . the only reason i came here and asked is because i need help . isnt that what forums are for ?

i have done so many experiments behind the scenes with the iron sulfate i have , trying to figure out how to do it on my own . . and all im doing is wasting gold solution .
there comes a point where even the experienced need to put their hands up and say someone help please.
id really appreciiate it if everyone would stop thinking i havent tried and that ive just come here looking for answers.
i have tried , and tried more and then for good measure ive tried again.

rant over.

anyway as i said , thankyou so much for your info.

is it going to be too much of an issue if i post pics of my attempt to make my own copperas to see if its looking right ?


----------



## jimdoc (May 4, 2020)

You ask this;

"but can i ask , you and everyone else to stop making reference to me holding hands or asking people to do the work for me."

What do you call this?

can i please bother someone for directions on how to make copperas, and then how to use it.
in lamens terms please


When you search for your answers you find other things you didn't even know to ask yet.
The search box doesn't make reference to holding hands or anything else to offend you.


----------



## prospector_pete (May 4, 2020)

omg.
ive already told you . ive tried using the search box and havent found what im looking for .
and i know most likely it is due to me asking the wrong question . i know the info is out there and i obviously didnt search properly , hence the reason why i came here to ask.

if its really so damn hard for someone to just point me in the right direction . then just forget about it.
clearly yous have more fun critisizing people than actually helping them,

my bad , coming here to a forum , thinking people who know better will help.
what was i thinking


----------



## jimdoc (May 4, 2020)

whatever.


----------



## butcher (May 5, 2020)

Pete,
I did not come here to ask questions, I came to learn, and I used the forum and the information it contained, I studied everything I could, and I still do.

Any new field of study you begin like this one that can take you three lifetimes to only learn a small part of it will be a difficult journey, to begin with, you need to learn to speak a new language, you will need to understand many of the basic principles, you will also have to learn how to study the subject.

Beginning the journey is the hardest, especially when you are blinded by gold fever, you will struggle trying things you do not understand or have not researched yet, in your haste to waste or overlook gold in the frantic search, you waste more time studying and trying to learn to overcome a mess or to get some chemical experiment to go as the books say it should, you climb the hills blindly in search of yellow metal, without understanding what formed the gold in the region and why it is deposited where it is, and what form it would be in, where it is and where it is not...

It is only after you get past that hump of beginning your journey does the real trip begin, you gain an understanding of the language, you gain a basic understanding of the principles, you stopped frantically picking up every yellow rock of pyrite, and gained an understanding of the field of gold before beginning your search, you have gained experience in how to recover or pan the gold, you know where it is and where to get it, you understand enough to grow with this lifelong study and field of work persuing any portion of these vast skills you wish to learn more about.

To get gold it takes practice and patients, you need both, more practice with the search function for the information you need, more practice studying, and much more patients (relax learn and then do) which in itself is a lifelong lesson...


----------



## prospector_pete (May 5, 2020)

ok well heres a question which im sure isnt in any of the threads , atleast i havent seen it . and yes i looked .
i got some sulfamic acid today but all i could find was liquid form , ive only ever seen people using a powder.
i dont see why it would be a problem but for peace of mind id like to know , 
is liquid for ok ?


----------



## butcher (May 5, 2020)

Can you post the MSDS sheet for the chemical you are discussing or some more information?

Sodium chloride can be sold as a liquid or a powder, the metal salt is just that a metal salt of the acid and the metal.

Sulfamic acid, amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid, aminosulfonic acid, and sulfamidic acid, is a molecular compound with the formula H3NSO3. is a colorless, water-soluble compound.

The MSDS sheet will give you details of the safe use of the product and can give you clues of what chemical compounds are used in the product...

Boiler scale removers like sulfamic acid are sold in many forms, dry salts or liquids, or solid blocks of slats, sometimes they are pure products like sulfamic acid or a combination of products or ingredients or acids with proprietary blends, the MSDS or safety data sheet will normally give clues to the chemical compound...


----------



## prospector_pete (May 5, 2020)

thats a very informative reply . thankyou so much.
im very computer challenged , i would have no idea how or where to find a data sheet about a product. i can take a pic of the bottle if that helps


----------



## galenrog (May 5, 2020)

MSDS = Material Safety Data Sheet. 

I have had a need for these since I was a teenager. I am now well over 60. The MSDS, in conjunction with information from package labeling will, in most cases, tell you active and inert ingredients of contents.

Time for more coffee.


----------



## butcher (May 5, 2020)

what is an MSDS or safety data sheet?
How do I find one?

Here is some information on a common molecular chemical compound you should be familiar with and use often in finding, mining, recovering, and even refining gold, called hydric acid, or dihydrogen monoxide.


https://www.dhmo.org/msds/MSDS-DHMO-Kemp.pdf
https://www.monroecti.org/cms/lib07/PA03000492/Centricity/Domain/37/Dihydrogen%20Monoxide%20FAQ.pdf

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01ycTtGa_AR2pXXj0tlcYzQ_UZsRQ%3A1588694710212&ei=to6xXuzBDN6z0PEPtPGqWA&q=what+is+MSDS+how+do+I+get+them%3F&oq=what+is+MSDS+how+do+I+get+them%3F&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDIFCCEQqwIyBQghEKsCMgUIIRCrAjoECAAQRzoECCMQJzoCCAA6BAgAEEM6BwgAEBQQhwI6BggAEAcQHjoECAAQDToFCAAQkQI6BggAEBYQHjoICCEQFhAdEB46BQgAEM0COgUIIRCgAVDdG1isxAFg6-gBaABwAngAgAGjA4gBxyGSAQowLjI0LjMuMC4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjs9O7-jJ3pAhXeGTQIHbS4CgsQ4dUDCAw


----------



## Geo (Jan 5, 2022)

prospector_pete said:


> im hoping someone can help me with a simil;ar problem . i had some solution from when i did 2 kilos of mixed ic chips. the solution was a dark mess which i couldnt do anything with , so i dropped what i hope was gold by using copper.
> then i put the black silt into AR . i was extremely delighted when my AR turned a lovely dark orange and when tested with stannous , it immidiately gave a solid black result, i thought wow it must be really concentrated with gold. i have had issues precipitating for years tho , its the final stage of gold recovery that i always have problems with . so i plled out my tiny 250 ml beakers to try several different attempts at dropping gold.
> in one beaker i put distilled water on heat and added iron sulfate . i left it on heat for about 10 minutes to try and disolve the powder , once disolved i put hcl to make it go green as id seen on videos . also hokes book talks about adding hcl to iron sulfate.when i poured the iron sulfate solution into the sample of AR , it turned brown and hasnt changed , nothing dropped.
> 
> ...


I know this is an old post. When you use urea to neutralize nitric acid, it doesn't really neutralize it all. It converts some to byproducts like urea nitrate. Urea nitrate, when dry, is very unstable and can explode with little pressure. In it's pure form, it is a high explosive. Certain things that you can do will liberate the nitric acid from the nitrated byproducts. So there is the possibility that the gold simply redissolved back into solution. Ferrous sulfate pentahydrate is a blue color and contains extra water in the crystal. Ferrous sulfate heptahydrate is a aquamarine crystal that slowly oxidizes to a tan to brown color. Anhydrous ferrous sulfate is a white powder. Iron oxide is red and that is staining the white powder. When you mix your dry ferrous sulfate crystals, add a small amount of concentrated sulfuric acid. It will instantly dissolve the off color "rust" and make an aquamarine color. Adding HCl to discolored will not add any benefits to the process. Adding sulfuric acid will redissolve the oxide and recreate useful copperas. Below are two photos. One is anhydrous ferrous sulfate (white -off white) and ferrous sulfate heptahydrate (aquamarine crystals).
" All the iron(II) sulfates dissolve in water to give the same aquo complex [Fe(H2O)6]2+"


----------

