# Flaming posted snobbery



## malfeces (Mar 13, 2013)

Hi all, I have been on this forum for about six months now and have a very quick question to ask people here. I am not trying to cause a fight, insult anyone, or create any problems but I do have one burning question to ask the people of the GRF. My question is this, why is there such a negative reaction to people who ask questions of the forum members? Just because it is common knowledge to one person does not mean it is to everyone, nor does it mean the person asking is ignorant or incapable of scanning the forums threads. Not every seemingly simple question is meant to be a shortcut or way out of researching. As a medical professional, one method of researching IS in fact reaching out to colleagues for their oppinions and knowledge. There is so often the comment that if a person would put more energy into searching than asking they would know the answer by now. These forums are not always easy to navigate, the search function does not always help find what you are looking for, and so much of the threads are filled with intellectual snobbery that it takes at least twice as much time to get through a thread just to find the information you are looking for. Why is the line "Refiners helping one another" written under the forums logo if not to promote a sense of goodwill? I understand that there are a lot of new people coming here who do not know as much as the pros however the pros were not born pros, they had to learn somewhere as well. If a post strikes you as being basic, why not just ignore it? Let it be, if you do not have the patience to direct or help someone then let someone else do it. You are not obligated to respond. Why be nasty and negative under the guise of "just making sure they realize how dangerous this stuff is" and "Its for their own good." If a person starting out gets that kind of reaction, they may be more likely to avoid the forum and proceed on their own without learing all the safety precautions and hazards. 

I realize that this post may REALLY iritate many of you. I understand that and accept the consequences of my post. This will likely be the last time I visit this forum. I just hope that it reaches some of you who leave the unpleasant posts and reminds you of the old saying, "If you don't have anything nice (or helpful) to say, don't say anything at all."

Thanks for your time.


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## jeneje (Mar 13, 2013)

A very good question? looking forward to the answers.
Ken


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## element47.5 (Mar 13, 2013)

I will try to give you a series of answers: 

1: Because people come here and expect to be led by the hand through procedures that have been discussed at great, great length, including such resources as detailed as videos produced by forum members and others. Many times, a newbie does not know how to properly phrase a question...this is ALWAYS the issue with newbs, the search is hard because they do not have the correct terminology. 

2: Members here (and I am taking the liberty of speaking for others even though I do not, per se) are FANATICAL about safety, because some of the fumes generated and acids used CAN KILL YOU, BLIND YOU, or PERMANENTLY DESTROY YOUR LUNGS, right now. Or others around you. No kidding. So often enough when folks come on here and ask in text speak "how do U...." the concern is not especially guiding them the right way (which they clearly have made little or no effort to search out, see #1) to refine their .3 grams of gold in exchange for their eyesight, nobody knows if their jagged text-speak is a misstatement of chemical formulae (after all, if they are too lazy to search out well-documented procedures and too lazy to properly learn and lay out chem formulae, then it is a concern that they may be too lazy to don safety gear, to properly vent fumes or a dozen other things) 

3: Some of the best teachers I have ever had have been gruff, grizzled veterans that beat me about the head and shoulders as I asked my dumb newb questions. Everyone today is looking to have everything handed to them on a silver platter and there is often a failure to recognize that on this forum, you have perhaps 200 years of collective experience of real, no jive, high-volume commercial refiners who generously share their hard-won knowledge. 

4: We get folks on this forum from all over the world who do not express themselves in cogent, clear English. That is not their fault. 

5: We very, very often get folks on this forum who say "first I dumped all my junk jewelry into AR" (wrong) then I sprayed down the flask with Windex (wrong) then I boiled the liquid until (wrong) except the thing boiled over and now I have to replace the flooring in my apartment or I will be evicted in 3 days except my cat died when she inhaled the red fumes. How can I recover my gold?" What do you suggest as an answer to someone who has done everything wrong, has failed to look up anything at all, and expects a global answer to their series of multiple and dangerous blunders? 

6: These metals will wait for you FOREVER until you study, learn, ask questions from the standpoint of clearly having begun to study the materials (Hoke) that are mentioned in EVERY newbie post. What's the hurry? Over and over and over again, the people on this forum who have transitioned from newbs to capable refiners have studied the background materials for MANY MONTHS. This is a very, very bad area of endeavor for the typical "Hey I looked it up on the internet and now I know how to do it" thing. People say that giving schoolkids ipads is a great way for them to learn. I disagree. The knowledge is so easy to get, there is no value assigned to it. They believe anything they find on the net. There are lots of subtleties and cautions with this stuff, and many folks come on the forum and think they know more than the proven, repeatedly successful procedures that have been developed over hundreds of years by thousands of participants. Nobody is smarter than the chemicals. They do what they do, and even then, very often there are unexpected results due to temperature, purity of certain reagents, quality of glassware, and plenty of other factors. 

Hope this supplies some context.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 13, 2013)

malfeces said:


> Hi all, I have been on this forum for about six months now and have a very quick question to ask people here. I am not trying to cause a fight, insult anyone, or create any problems but I do have one burning question to ask the people of the GRF. My question is this, why is there such a negative reaction to people who ask questions of the forum members?



Do you have specific examples of this? What I see is people saving others from making life threatening mistakes. If someone posts a question, and the answer has to do with something dangerous that could lead to serious harm or even death, the person asking the questions needs to be told in no uncertain terms how dangerous it is, and directed to learning or reading the proper material before they start attempting to process.



malfeces said:


> Just because it is common knowledge to one person does not mean it is to everyone, nor does it mean the person asking is ignorant or incapable of scanning the forums threads. Not every seemingly simple question is meant to be a shortcut or way out of researching. As a medical professional, one method of researching IS in fact reaching out to colleagues for their oppinions and knowledge.



The key word you used was "colleagues", meaning other people who have a base understanding and knowledge. A heart surgeon asks another heart surgeon about heart issues, they are not asking a foot doctor, and a heart surgeon wouldn't tell a foot doctor how to operate on someone's heart. If there were a forum of doctors who were exchanging information, and a layman came along, someone with no background at all in health sciences, and they started demanding heart surgeons to explain to them how to perform an operation on their wife, nobody would help them. I hope you understand my point. Before even playing around with any of these processes, a person should at least have some base knowledge, a basic understanding of chemistry, a basic understanding of how dangerous these processes are. You don't just hand people information like that. I for one don't want to be the cause of anyone's mistakes, or worse help them create a situation where they are doing someone else harm, or worse causing someone's death.



malfeces said:


> There is so often the comment that if a person would put more energy into searching than asking they would know the answer by now. These forums are not always easy to navigate, the search function does not always help find what you are looking for, and so much of the threads are filled with intellectual snobbery that it takes at least twice as much time to get through a thread just to find the information you are looking for.



These forums are far easier to search for information than attempting to find books on the subjects. It is far less expensive also. As well, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of years of accumulated information here. If you cannot at least attempt a search, if you cannot do the most simple of things on this forum, how do you expect to ever be able to understand the information you read, let alone apply it to what you are doing? And just because you cannot understand something in a thread, does not mean it's intellectual snobbery. Maybe if you put forth a little effort and learned the language, it wouldn't sound like intellectual snobbery to you. People are told to read Hoke, not just for the information on how to process, but also to understand the language we use on this forum. It's far easier to help someone if they understand the lingo the "intellectual snobbery" as you put it. If not, you have to first explain what the terms mean, then explain what they are seeking help on. If people refuse to help themselves and sign up here "expecting" people to donate their time, effort and energy to help them, they should at the very least, the bare minimum, understand the language so that they understand what is being taught.



malfeces said:


> Why is the line "Refiners helping one another" written under the forums logo if not to promote a sense of goodwill?



If you really want an answer, look to your own question. "Refiners helping one another" means REFINERS helping one another. It doesn't mean or say refiners helping everyone that has no idea how to refine, learn to do so, for free, on our time, at your convenience. Can you even begin to understand how offensive your sense of entitlement might be to someone who has spent the time, read the books, learned on their own how to do these things? How about you answer all the people who donate, for free, all the time they do helping people on this forum. And all the time they spend away from refining to help new people why you seem so smug and entitled about them helping new people?



malfeces said:


> I understand that there are a lot of new people coming here who do not know as much as the pros however the pros were not born pros, they had to learn somewhere as well. If a post strikes you as being basic, why not just ignore it? Let it be, if you do not have the patience to direct or help someone then let someone else do it. You are not obligated to respond. Why be nasty and negative under the guise of "just making sure they realize how dangerous this stuff is" and "Its for their own good." If a person starting out gets that kind of reaction, they may be more likely to avoid the forum and proceed on their own without learing all the safety precautions and hazards.



If you honestly understand how extremely dangerous this type of work is, how can you tell someone that cares, that honestly wants to help, to keep people safe, not to post in response to things that new people post, that could get them into a really bad situation. On the one hand you ask why people don't help, and then on the other you are suggesting they don't help. What is it you want from people who are knowledgeable? Why would anyone who does understand the dangers, encourage someone to process with acids and chemicals who has no clue how dangerous these things are. Do you even understand what you are suggesting?



malfeces said:


> I realize that this post may REALLY iritate many of you. I understand that and accept the consequences of my post. This will likely be the last time I visit this forum. I just hope that it reaches some of you who leave the unpleasant posts and reminds you of the old saying, "If you don't have anything nice (or helpful) to say, don't say anything at all."
> 
> Thanks for your time.



I took the time to read some of your posts. Here are some excerpts of things you have said or asked in the past:



malfeces said:


> So sodium nitrate and distilled water solution can not be used to remove silver from keyboard mylars. The sodium has to be removed first. Is that correct? I am trying to find a more cost effective way to recover silver from several lbs of mylars at the moment. Sodium nitrate is MUCH more affordable ...
> 
> OK, so now that the batch of fingers is completely done, I need to disolve the gold in HCL and clorox then precipitate with SMB. I will have to wait until i can get a hold of some SMB for that. Any suggestions where to get SMB cheaply?
> 
> ...



It seems that you not only were able to find the information you need and were looking for, but that many many MANY people helped you along the way. I think you should go back and read your posts, and see how much people have actually bent over backwards to help you. All the visual aids, all the direction, all the compliments you have given people for helping you so so much.

And I would like to make one more point while I am at it. You have learned a lot on this forum, and in your 6 months time being here, I did not see one post where you were offering to help anyone. Not one. Not in any of your posts. How do you have the right to complain about how people help other people when you not only have not posted any help for anyone yourself, but have learned so much since being here and have thanked so many people?

I am just shaking my head right now, because I honestly do not understand how you can feel so indignant or offended. So if I understand your post correctly, you are threatening to leave because you don't like the way people who know and understand how dangerous all this is, point people who do not understand in the right direction. And before you can give back just a tiny bit of what you have taken from this forum in the form of knowledge, learning, understanding, friendship, etc. You are going to leave?

Your post didn't irritate me, it outright offended me. You who in your six months being here, have never even attempted to help anyone or give back anything you have learned. Nothing. Nada. Zip. And you are going to complain?

Well I say, if you really are going to leave like this after so many people have gone out of their way to help you, go kick rocks!

Scott


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## nickvc (Mar 13, 2013)

Element and Scott both gave some pretty fair responses to your perceived slights of new members but I will add a few points. I have refined nearly all my working life, I wasn't taught,there were few books and certainly no forum, I didn't even know of the existence of Hoke, what knowledge there was, was a closely guarded secret so I learned the hard way by trial and error and trying to learn from anyone who had some idea of the processes and methods used. I eventually ran my own commercial refinery for a good many years and found this forum years after I closed it down. I enjoy my time here and learn something virtually every time I visit and try where I can to point other members in the right direction whether that be to stop messing around with chemicals before they kill themselves, family, pets or neighbours or give more specific advice if the questioner seems likely to understand what I'm suggesting. Many of the senior members here on the forum have earned there knowledge the same way I did and many have become highly successful refiners in their own rights with a great depth of experience and knowledge which they share with everyone else in exchange for some basic requirements......read the books and study the forum, be polite and don't expect to be spoon fed the whole shebang in a couple of posts.
If you or anyone else can't abide by those simple requirements please feel free to leave the only place worth a cent when it comes to recovering and refining precious metals on the net, we have plenty of success stories to prove our methods work and all of them are still healthy and refining today.


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## Smack (Mar 13, 2013)

Here comes the drama queens. You guys are funny, thanks for the laugh. You know you could have found this if you would have done a search. :roll: This has all been covered before.


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## patnor1011 (Mar 13, 2013)

The main problem is the word "free"
Nowadays people when they hear free, they always want more. And then there is this entitlement thing.

It reads:
Hobbyists and Professionals Helping One Another - providing somebody with step by step instruction is not going to help him. It only confuse him even more without basic understanding. The ones who want to learn will understand. The ones looking for something else will be offended.


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## stevem4323 (Mar 13, 2013)

i was always led to believe a forum was a place to find and share information ....not to be told to look through thousands of previous comments


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## jimdoc (Mar 13, 2013)

Questions are just as easily typed in the search box before typing elsewhere.
It should at least be attempted first.

Jim


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## stevem4323 (Mar 13, 2013)

true ...but sometimes its better described in laymens terms and not (excuse the pun) blinded by science ...we are not all that clever


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## etack (Mar 13, 2013)

stevem4323 said:


> i was always led to believe a forum was a place to find and share information ....not to be told to look through thousands of previous comments




This is true but are you the one sharing the info. your post count says no. Most of the "snobbery" if you want to call it that is from people that are helping and have typed the same thing over and over and over again. the human question "have you used the search box" is also to remind people to use the search box first.

Eric


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## patnor1011 (Mar 13, 2013)

stevem4323 said:


> i was always led to believe a forum was a place to find and share information ....not to be told to look through thousands of previous comments



That is the main point. Find and share. But it is you who need to find what others already shared here. As I have said before people who are here to learn something will do that without problem just by reading. You maybe need some more time but at the end when you will be answering posts about platinum in hdd at least once every month and about AP process once every week then you may get the picture.

But people....
It is a forum - ask if you want, discuss, talk but for whatever it is worth do not be offended if people do not answer what you want to hear, do not demand attention. If you are not happy with answer then go and look for another answers but it looks that some people are never happy with what they get for free.
If answer you got is that you have to learn or search then why do you feel offended? Because person who answered did not searched forum for you?
There are tons of wonder books which will teach you refining in 10 minutes for sale on eBay. Buy few, spend some money then compare of what is here free of charge with what you bought.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 13, 2013)

stevem4323 said:


> true ...but sometimes its better described in laymens terms and not (excuse the pun) blinded by science ...we are not all that clever



When explaining these processes, we all need to use common language, if not then it's difficult to explain anything so that people who come after, and use the search function, can also understand what is being explained.

One of the reasons people harp on reading Hoke, is so that all of us will be speaking the same language, and there will be a drastic reduction in miscommunication. We do not describe things in laymens terms here because if we did so, we might intend something, and it be taken a different way, and then someone may harm themselves because they were following directions incorrectly.

In my wildest imagination I cannot even fathom a world where people would complain so much when so many are willing to help them, even when they are repeatedly being pig headed, not listening to good solid experience and advice, still they want to do their own thing. And then when everything goes wrong, they panic and need a fix right away, and post so.

If you don't want to follow suggestions, or advice why are you here asking for it? If you are going to have issues and problems because people on this forum refuse to hold your hand and sing kumbaya, or sing the Coca Cola song while holding candles, then you shouldn't be here. Personally I am more interested in helping people and being helped myself, than worrying about making people feel all warm and fuzzy. We are not therapists here, we are people trying to make a living refining and recovering precious metals, or hobbyists who do this out of sheer joy.

Let me put it a totally different way. If you were taking a college course, and you acted this way, you would get an F, or be kicked out of the class. When you take a college course you are expected to do the course work, expected to read the books, and then tested on it. What we do when we refine and recover precious metals is not a game, it is literally deadly serious and you need to conduct yourself in that manor.

Stop being babies, and man up!

The sense of entitlement of people who are new and have not contributed anything at all except a lotof questions that already have been asked, many times over, and answered, disgusts me. I just posted on a thread where someone was looking for help, I told him what he needed to look up and he did. That makes me want to follow the thread and help more. If I suggest a subject to look up, and the person becomes upset and wants me to hold their hand, giving them step by step instructions, do you honestly think that will incite me to want to help them further?

I get the distinct feeling sometimes that the only way some people learn is to hit them with a stick, repeatedly, until it sinks in that they need to also help themselves rather than put the burden of learning on someone else.

Scott


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## patnor1011 (Mar 13, 2013)

If Hoke book is not written in layman terms then I do not know what you mean by saying "layman terms". Then perhaps this is not the type of hobby suited for everyone.


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## element47.5 (Mar 13, 2013)

You know what? I think I have hit on a way to resolve this. 

Nobody should ever have to learn anything. After all, it's hard. It takes time and effort. It is completely unfair that anyone knows any more than anyone else. It is a completely lopsided state of affairs that should be addressed, discussed, and corrected at the earliest opportunity. The burden should be on the one who knows more, because that knowledge was undoubtedly obtained by nefarious means. In essence, the more experienced person stole that knowledge. 

Everything new to the student should be explained in a way that the student never has to learn even a single new word. Any question must be answered in a way where no authority figure ever has to say "look over here, it's all written down, and you can read it here, better than I might be able to explain it. And here is how you find it". That's cheating, that's exactly the same type of thing as how the the more experienced person got their knowledge in the first place, which we already agree is by hook or crook, more likely by crook. And of course, if there are any losses of materials or skin burns or hospital bills, why, the teacher is unquestionably responsible. Just send in your estimate of how much gold you lost doing it your way or your bill for a two-week stay in intensive care and Noxx will apportion the bill among those who tried to help. 

The folks who know how to do things should drop what they are doing and upon receiving a question, give their time, and the benefit of their experience, for free, to anyone who asks. Because their experience is worth nothing, right? Their business is worth nothing. It isn't right that they get to use what they have learned over the years to make money or anything like that. It's completely unfair. They don't need to be working at their shop trying to pay their rent and support families and pay their taxes. No, they need to stop feeling superior and take the time to type and retype the answers, always being careful not to omit any steps, not to use any unfamiliar terms (of course, they are going to have to carefully interview anyone asking questions as to exactly what terms the student knows and does not know.) Any such interview should be conducted at the convenience of the student, at a time and place of the student's choosing. The teachers should bear the cost of traveling to the home/workplace of any such student to make sure that proper procedures are being followed, including safety precautions and waste disposal procedures. They must be very careful not to use any terms that are outside the student's experience. Additionally, they should, at their own cost, bring samples of every type of material a beginner might undertake to process, as well as glassware and chemicals sufficient to process the amount of materials they will be bringing to the student's place of operation. Any kind of hotel stay and meals are the responsibility of the teacher in such cases. Should there be permits required to transport reagents, those costs should be borne by the teacher. There is no greater sin than to expect anyone to undertake anything on their own. All knowledge must be handed to whomever asks for it, without any prerequisite effort on the part of the student. Only in this way will we all be equal.

When the student takes this attitude, it means that the teacher's time is worthless. All the time and experience and study the teacher undertook should be handed over to anyone who asks. This despite the perfectly known characteristic of human beings that that which is given to them is very rarely appreciated. 

Answer me this: If the knowledge and experience is worthless, why is there any motivation to acquire it?


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## Geo (Mar 13, 2013)

i lurked on this forum for over three months before i joined. i have prospected and reclaimed gold from electronics ever since PC's began to be scrapped and even before that. i did ask questions and still do. i dont feel that i was ever disrespected (and believe me when i say that i was told the same thing then as new members are today) because i feel it is such a privilege to be here. i respect every member here and take everything im told to heart. if i ask a question and get a response that is less than helpful, i still say thank you for your time. if someone comes on this forum and starts asking questions on the first day or even in the first week (to me) it shows a lack of respect. i know that most people come here because they have (metaphorically speaking) painted themselves into a corner and cant get out. the first stroke of luck for these people is that they found this forum. so whats the first thing they do with all the acquired knowledge here? read on the subject that they messed up on? not likely. they ask the same question that has been asked dozens or hundreds of times expecting an answer and getting an attitude when directed to where they can find the process needed to clean up the mess. 

i say start a new topic like "Mercenary for hire : we will come to you and your problems will be dealt with (for a fee)" 

step by step tutoring offered for those who are un-willing or un-able to read.fees to be determined on a client by client basis.


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## solar_plasma (Mar 13, 2013)

I'm a noob. I have only read in the forum what looked interesting to me. I saw, that folks are safety fanatics, but I thought that was okay. When someone got "flamed",he had asked something which had to rise concerns about his consciousness. Or, someone asked for a "king's way" to become rich. Okay, maybe I would be more polite to them, but as I did understand, many in here are amazing autodidact experts. It is naturally and very healthy, that they are that cautious. People who are educated in using dangerous chemicals can also in that way sometimes learn from them, as you maybe lose the respect of some chems, if working with them daily...not at least myself :lol: some grams...ok Edited stuff happens....some litres and it's a case for hazmat. But every stupid can buy tons of it. I think this forum is a very nice selfregulating place. And I will surely not go, if I got "flamed", rather I would try to find out, what went wrong, do my homework and clear the situation.

When I need information about a complex item, I READ, READ, READ.
When I write to the forum I don't expect an answer, it's for me like the nice pub round the corner,where I can meet many interesting people with very interesting experiences, c) I dont wonder what the forum can give to me,but what I maybe can give to the forum: Then I write some "intelligent", maybe "snobbed" sentences, which I think, should be written here.

I'm new to this place and I love it!


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## Barren Realms 007 (Mar 13, 2013)

Geo said:


> i say start a new topic like "Mercenary for hire : we will come to you and your problems will be dealt with (for a fee)"
> 
> step by step tutoring offered for those who are un-willing or un-able to read.fees to be determined on a client by client basis.




ROFLMAO


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## Palladium (Mar 13, 2013)

After reading this thread one thing came to mind. When my oldest son (23) was 5-6 years old i was out in my shop one day, long before gold refining, and i was working on a t.v. with an old style picture tube which can kill you. Well he seen daddy using the voltage meter to work and of course he wanted to be like dad and do the same. I turned my back to get something and when i turned around he had the probes in his hand and was already in the danger zone for electrocution. Without even realizing it i slapped his hand so hard that the probes flew out of his hand and i dam near knocked him off the counter top. He cried for all of about 3 minutes and i felt like the worse dad of all time for about 18 years now because of it. At the time my concern was not the fact that i had harmed him as much as the fact that i had saved him though like i said i still felt bad about it at the time, but i don't regret having done what i did one bit. Sometimes we need our hand slapped away even though we don't understand why.


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## kilo17 (Mar 14, 2013)

I have a couple of comments in regards to newbies. I am a newbie on this forum and I don't feel threatened or mistreated at all by the members. What I read in posts towards newbies is not anger or unwillingness to help, it's concern for safety and also that the person asking the question has put in some effort into helping themselves. I can give multiple examples from my posts as well as others post. I have seen multiple posts where it is obvious that the person posting has put in effort but may not have a strong chemistry background and has abbreviated wrong (grams vs grains) or stated it wrong. The subsequent posts from members have been helpful and informative in explaining what is wrong with their nomenclature and why it's dangerous as well as answering the question. I read a post yesterday where I believe there was confusion with nomenclature and Lou (I think) explained why his question was wrong and how it could be dangerous. I found the whole series of post very helpful. I too am in the medical field and have a strong chemistry and organic chemistry background but the worst thing I can do for myself is think my organic chemistry background makes me an expert in PM chemistry, nothing could be further from the truth. I know when I was in residency, if I didn't have a strong backbone, I needed to change jobs because people weren't going to candy coat information given to me just to make me feel good, the ones that cared about the residents were often the harshest critics and were the ones I learned the most from and respected most. I see a bunch of intelligent people on this forum that are fanatical about their work and care enough to put safety first. If I got my feelings hurt by constructive criticism, I would be a miserable person. 

The last point about the post that bothers me is- I don't think the fact that you work in the medical field has any significance whatsoever. If it was to impress someone, it doesn't. I read "I work in the medical field" as an attempt to either gain respect (which it doesn't) or to mislead people ( by letting them assume you have a position you don't). If you are going to post a critique about professionalism- Be professional. 

Sorry about the rant, it's just that this post made me angry. "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" is about the worst quote in the world. I want to hear what people say, even if I don't like it. If someone tells me something it's usually for a reason. I want to take the information and process why it was stated. Usually it's because someone cares enough to actually tell me the truth and if I have an open mind I will usually learn something or it may even save my life.

I want to thank everyone on this forum for the help, guidance and understanding. Stated another way, I for one, appreciate and respect "Tuff Love"

Keith


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 14, 2013)

I think if someone is going to post a thread, specially on something volatile, they should follow and comment on their thread, I for one would be interested in what the original poster has to say about the comments, both for and against his post.

Otherwise, this just seems like a blatant case of drive by posting.

Scott


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## solar_plasma (Mar 14, 2013)

...as an example:

not long ago one of our forum friends posted some questions about hydroflouric acid. And catched hell for it. Well, who has not already thought of how nice it would be just to be able to dissolve silicadioxide or tantal? I have. Sure, I knew that it is a dangerous liquid, but what is not dangerous. I only didnt try it earlier since I had no experience with it and not enough knowledge, though it would be easy for me to prepare it...if I would have survived long enough :lol: . I was glad to read folk's reactions since those were the reason why I read more about that liquid. HORRIBLE stuff! Nothing I ever want to handle! Not at school with fume hood, not in a hazmat accident with teletubby suit and airsupply and especially not at home!

Surely I would have stopped after reading the data sheets about it first, but maybe not if I only had to do with small amounts of flouride salts and acids, which already could produce HF gas.


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## etack (Mar 14, 2013)

NobleMetalWorks said:


> I think if someone is going to post a thread, specially on something volatile, they should follow and comment on their thread, I for one would be interested in what the original poster has to say about the comments, both for and against his post.
> 
> Otherwise, this just seems like a blatant case of drive by posting.
> 
> Scott




I call it "internet throw up" when someone needs to post just to see them selves thrown up on the screen.

Eric


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## glorycloud (Mar 14, 2013)

NobleMetalWorks said:


> I think if someone is going to post a thread, specially on something volatile, they should follow and comment on their thread, I for one would be interested in what the original poster has to say about the comments, both for and against his post.
> 
> Otherwise, this just seems like a blatant case of drive by posting.
> 
> Scott



Just looking at the handle of the person who started this thread speaks
volumes to me. :shock: 

Yes, there are some who aren't always "kind" with new forum members
but overall this a great place for anyone who is willing to learn and is 
also willing to do their own due diligence by spending time searching
and reading. That's why I hang around and hopefully help and encourage
along the way because so many were patient with me and helped me
when I first came here. 8)


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## element47.5 (Mar 14, 2013)

re: HF Hydrofluoric acid.

My Dad was a pharmaceutical chemist at a major mfr for 42 years. I was sort of young but quite fascinated by what he did and occasionally went into work with him over the weekends when he had a reaction that was cooking over the weekend he wanted to check on. Of course he had all the fume hoods and safety gear and all the proper glassware at hand if there was any notion that he would need it. 

He was not especially good at explaining many things but there were many reagents for which he expressed very healthy respect, if not fear. Among them were HF, HCN, and any of HNO3, HCl, H2SO4, certain potentially explosive amines. Before that he worked at the Ethyl Corp where they made tetraethyl lead for gasoline, and he disliked that endeavor, not to mention the HBr and HI he had to use.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 14, 2013)

element47.5 said:


> re: HF Hydrofluoric acid.
> 
> My Dad was a pharmaceutical chemist at a major mfr for 42 years. I was sort of young but quite fascinated by what he did and occasionally went into work with him over the weekends when he had a reaction that was cooking over the weekend he wanted to check on. Of course he had all the fume hoods and safety gear and all the proper glassware at hand if there was any notion that he would need it.
> 
> He was not especially good at explaining many things but there were many reagents for which he expressed very healthy respect, if not fear. Among them were HF, HCN, and any of HNO3, HCl, H2SO4, certain potentially explosive amines. Before that he worked at the Ethyl Corp where they made tetraethyl lead for gasoline, and he disliked that endeavor, not to mention the HBr and HI he had to use.



I used to make the Nicorderm patch for a company called Alza, before they were bought out by Johnston & Johnston. We had to wear the full containment suits with silver lined gloves and all zipper and suit connection points taped over with a special type of tape that discolored if any nicotine came into contact with it. The suits were positively pressurized by piped in air, so you walked around with this air line attached to the lower back.

This is because one drop of pure nicotine on your bare skin will kill you, or at the very least do permanent nerve damage. Our shift supervisor/lead took off his suit incorrectly, and had just a smear on the arm of the suit. When it touched his skin, he went down like a sack of potatoes, the emergency response team threw him in a chemical shower, he was rushed to the hospital and he never came back to work.

I have a healthy respect for things dangerous because of my own experience with dangerous things. I wouldn't work with nicotine today, but I'm glad for the experience. It has ingrained in me a healthy respect for safety concerns. It's also the reason I respond in a no nonsense serious way when I read posts where people are putting themselves in an unsafe situation. I might sound like a jerk, but I rather that than someone not taking something serious, because I didn't respond in a very serious way, and they harm themselves or worse.

Scott


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## solar_plasma (Mar 14, 2013)

> When it touched his skin, he went down like a sack of potatoes



that is scaring! ....I wished I could tell freely about my operations, but ofcourse I'm not allowed. You proceed as you have learned it and you are very safe as long as you do so, you have no time to get frightened under operating conditions. But thinking of it in quiet for yourself of those materials...scaring.


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## patnor1011 (Mar 14, 2013)

Maybe I will not be able to express myself clearly but it is like this. Everyone can learn anything he want. But that (learning) will not guarantee that you will become expert on that thing.


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## Pantherlikher (Mar 14, 2013)

Seriously? This is being discussed as if it's a problem?...
I have read alot of Geo's responces to newbies and have yet to feel anything he has writen to be offensive. Yet I see he feels as though he is to harsh or abrasive.
Granted, a newby question asked like the kid with the silver spoon permenently attached to him, gets "attacked". But all that I've read, there was either a language barrier which was quickly identified and fixed. Or identified as the Give it to me now newbies that demand instead of wishing to learn. 
Either one gets the same responces. 
Here is the safe way out of your mess and then...
Go here and READ!!!

So what's the problem?.
My concern with Geo is that 1 day he will stop helping because he feels bad...
That would be a sad day indeed.

Being new myself, if I read a post and can add something to help, I gladly share so others before me can move ahead and help others.
Aint tat what a forum is for?. People helping people? You can't expect the same person to answer and help the world with the exact same questions and do so in a perfectly " Here's your order and have a wonderful day" type of FREE! help. 
The main problem I see is several members all at once replying to the same question without a responce. That just clutters up the post and I guess seems like "ganging up" on da newby. But all is for the greater good of weeding out the "demanders" and those wanting to learn something.

I thank each and every person that has shared what they have learned. No matter how their knowledge is shared.

BS.
Spoon fed learning is soon forgotten...


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## solar_plasma (Mar 15, 2013)

> No matter how their knowledge is shared.




T R U E !


Here I learned more in 2 weeks,than in 6 month of reading books,search the internet,youtube and trial on my own, trying to invent the spoon anew. Ok, it worked more or less and with many steps around, more complicated than it has to be. Now, I can learn from artists. Us newbees come as apprentices and fellow crafts to the master foremen, that's the point. If you start to build a church and it becomes a bunker, now asking the master, what to do, maybe he will help you, if you ask the right way, but you can't expect, that he will slap you on the back: "Hey, that's a wonderful bunker!" And you can't expect, he will tell you how to build a monument, before you are able to build a straight wall. (.....should have said yes, when a freemason invited me...but who cares.... :lol: I am my own little masonry)



> Everyone can learn anything he want. But that (learning) will not guarantee that you will become expert on that thing.



Y A P !

Everyone can learn to drive car. Only few will become a formula-1-champion. I only want to come from A to B without having an accident, maybe also to learn to slide around or do a 180 degrees turning into a parking space, not more. :lol:


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## Harold_V (Mar 15, 2013)

stevem4323 said:


> true ...but sometimes its better described in laymens terms and not (excuse the pun) blinded by science ...we are not all that clever


The very reason why EVERYONE who has an interest in learning to refine SHOULD READ HOKE'S BOOK! (If you've already read it, you'll understand why I say you should do so. If you have not, you'll never understand)

I have a very tough stance on this situation, and I have no intentions of compromising. Here's why. 

I graduated from high school, and had no further education, save for a couple of quarters of math and chemistry. 

I took no chemistry in high school. 

I founded and operated a successful refining business for many years. 

I learned almost everything I know by reading Hoke's book. Armed with the knowledge I gained from her work, I was able to digest more information that was useful in my refining venture. 

I had no one to consult. I had Hoke's book. 

If I can learn refining by reading her book, it's clear to me that others can do the same thing. It is, likewise, clear to me that without the basic knowledge I gained from her book, that the information I gleaned from further research most likely would not have been useful to me, because I wouldn't have had the basic understanding required. 

Plain and simple. If a new reader demands to be told how to refine, and displays an unwillingness to read Hoke's book before bombarding the board with questions, it is my opinion that he/she should be IMMEDIATELY banned from the forum. I've moderated long enough to understand that such people suffer from an entitlement attitude and will never rely on their own wits to accomplish _anything_. In the end, they are troublesome and keep the board off balance---the very thing that is not tolerated here. 

Read Hoke. Read Hoke again. Read Hoke until you understand what she teaches. 

Do not post questions until you have read Hoke, and have a basic understanding. 

*We are about refiners helping refiners, not refiners helping fools*. 

Harold


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## glorycloud (Mar 15, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> *We are about refiners helping refiners, not refiners helping fools*.
> 
> Harold



And that is the heart of the matter!! 8)


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## srlaulis (Mar 15, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> Do not post questions until you have read Hoke, and have a basic understanding.


*[/quote]


True, for your questions will shine light on the fact if you actually read her book or not.*


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## stevem4323 (Mar 15, 2013)

glorycloud said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > *We are about refiners helping refiners, not refiners helping fools*.
> ...


the word fool is a bit harsh if you are learning anything new then you are not a fool


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## stevem4323 (Mar 15, 2013)

and please take into consideration even some clever people including myself have a problem reading long winded text maybe dyslexia but please who is now going to call me a fool


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## Geo (Mar 15, 2013)

be careful Steve. the fool is not a person who ask questions. the fool is the person who begins any process that can kill or maim without studying and without having a clear idea of what they are doing. you should not start a process if you do not know what to expect before hand. how would the person know whether they had the flu or was slowly killing themselves by what they are doing. how would they know what to expect from the reaction or what hidden dangers lie in wait for that one mistake.

Harold is a mentor to a great many here on the forum and his words are full of wisdom. you dismiss his advice at your own peril. 

as a word of warning, Harold is not very patient with being mocked so again, be careful how you respond.


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## solar_plasma (Mar 15, 2013)

This forum is W O W! It's like standing beside Galileo Galilei and Leonardo da Vinci, by the way last one was an autodidact, too...no wonder, cos who should teach someone who is his time 500 years ahead. Our education systems are build to catch the average, not the highly talented. 



> and had no further education,



Brilliance does not correlate to education but to development!


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## jimdoc (Mar 15, 2013)

There are some people who obviously shouldn't be refining.☜ Period.......
That is OK, they can make money or have fun accumulating and selling scrap.
Some need to really take their time and study this forum and take good notes, until it all sinks in.
And then there are members that can help them by refining for them at a fair percentage.
When you consider all the studying and the safety equipment needed to do refining the right way, 
then small scale refining doesn't really make sense beyond being a hobby. Many new members just
don't get that.

Jim


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## patnor1011 (Mar 15, 2013)

If you cant read or don't understand recipe, you are not going to cook good dinner.


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## kdaddy (Mar 15, 2013)

Usually, it's the fool who describes himself as "clever". :|


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## necromancer (Mar 15, 2013)




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## Harold_V (Mar 16, 2013)

stevem4323 said:


> the word fool is a bit harsh if you are learning anything new then you are not a fool


The word is NOT harsh. I meant it to the letter.. and picked my words carefully. The point I've tried to make is the person SHOULD be learning something, not asking questions that would not be asked had they learned what they were told to learn. Why is it a reader can't read text in a book, but, instead, make demands of others to restate that which has been stated time and again, and is already at their disposal? 

Keep in mind, I do not suffer fools gladly. Pick your comments carefully. 

Readers are constantly admonished to read Hoke's book, yet some find that a bit of an inconvenience. If they are inconvenienced by having to lift a finger to better themselves, that, in and of itself, is evidence enough for me that they are fools. Only a fool ignores good and careful guidance---even when the words he/she hears are not what they hope to hear. If these individuals have/had enough wisdom to make decisions, they wouldn't be here asking of others. 

If you wish to learn from those of us who have knowledge, you're simply going to have to do it our way. Otherwise, there will be no lessons taught. None of us have enough time on our hands to coddle those who have an entitlement attitude and expect others to do the heavy lifting for them. 

I'm not interested in any further discussion in this matter. If you don't heed my cautions to do as you're told, in particular, in reading Hoke's book until it makes sense to you, this I promise you; you will not have a pleasant stay on this forum. 

Harold


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## 4metals (May 18, 2013)

I'd like to answer this from the perspective of one who is asked a lot of questions, more in PM than on the forum but questions none the less. I come to this profession as a chemist but don't hold that against me. I did not have the good fortune of reading Hoke for many years after I was refining on a large scale. The fact that this forum embraces her teachings is refreshing, and if you take the time to read the book you will have the ability to ask questions from a position of knowledge rather than from a position of oblivion. Harold has helped many members learn this trade, he learned from the ground up, without a forum and I applaud his accomplishment. I also understand his frustration when people come here expecting answers without doing the work. Harold may call these people fools, honestly in person I wouldn't be expressing it that nice! 

But I'm not posting this to discuss the merits of reading Hoke, I would like to post an observation I've made from my tenure here as a member and now as a moderator. The members who do their refining successfully and profitably have done the hard work, they have read through the threads and sorted out the small talk and benefited from numerous posts and emerged as decent technicians. I have seen many come and ask questions rather than do the work, they come and they go but the ones that stay have done the work and, for most, it has paid off. I know that when a member posts an intelligent question which comes from obvious experience, his or her question will be answered and that member will not be told to go read the book. But the people who answer the questions get tired, how many times can a person be asked the same questions before getting "burnt out"? 

I think the amazing fact that a good number of our members came here knowing little of the art of refining and can now talk intelligently on the subject, and it is all because they did the work. So we know that this forum is a place where anyone can come and receive a FREE education which, to my knowledge, is not available anywhere else. You wouldn't walk into a college and a day later go ask for your diploma, so you cannot expect to come here and expect to have your hand held. Do the work and it will pay off! And there are members who participate on this forum every day who can verify this. Maybe they should weigh in.


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## Claudie (May 18, 2013)

4metals said:


> I'd like to answer this from the perspective of one who is asked a lot of questions, more in PM than on the forum but questions none the less. I come to this profession as a chemist but don't hold that against me. I did not have the good fortune of reading Hoke for many years after I was refining on a large scale. The fact that this forum embraces her teachings is refreshing, and if you take the time to read the book you will have the ability to ask questions from a position of knowledge rather than from a position of oblivion. Harold has helped many members learn this trade, he learned from the ground up, without a forum and I applaud his accomplishment. I also understand his frustration when people come here expecting answers without doing the work. Harold may call these people fools, honestly in person I wouldn't be expressing it that nice!
> 
> But I'm not posting this to discuss the merits of reading Hoke, I would like to post an observation I've made from my tenure here as a member and now as a moderator. The members who do their refining successfully and profitably have done the hard work, they have read through the threads and sorted out the small talk and benefited from numerous posts and emerged as decent technicians. I have seen many come and ask questions rather than do the work, they come and they go but the ones that stay have done the work and, for most, it has paid off. I know that when a member posts an intelligent question which comes from obvious experience, his or her question will be answered and that member will not be told to go read the book. But the people who answer the questions get tired, how many times can a person be asked the same questions before getting "burnt out"?
> 
> I think the amazing fact that a good number of our members came here knowing little of the art of refining and can now talk intelligently on the subject, and it is all because they did the work. So we know that this forum is a place where anyone can come and receive a FREE education which, to my knowledge, is not available anywhere else. You wouldn't walk into a college and a day later go ask for your diploma, so you cannot expect to come here and expect to have your hand held. Do the work and it will pay off! And there are members who participate on this forum every day who can verify this. Maybe they should weigh in.



Very good post. I think society today puts people in the mind set not to learn on their own, not to think for themselves. Everything around today has so many safety features that you couldn't get hurt if you tried. That is not true with refining metals, people need to think, they need to learn, so when they have a problem they can most likely think their way through it. There are many people out there spreading the wrong information too, I was on youtube today (I don't go there to learn but was linked there by a post I was reading) and I watched a video of a guy teaching others his version of the AP method. He was washing solutions down the drain, working on his kitchen counter top while telling people it is probably safe. I know my way around the internet pretty well and I have not seen any place out there like this forum. There are some real professionals here that have a lot to teach. If someone is willing to learn, the knowledge is here and the people here are willing to teach it, all for free. I am glad I found this site, I have learned so much here. I am by no means an expert at refining, but I have learned a lot. As much as I do know, I still wouldn't feel comfortable making youtube videos claiming to know what I was doing and trying to teach others, but I am pretty confident that I could do a better job than a lot of people out there that are making videos. I think the moderators here deserve to be respected, I have seen new people come demanding answers like the forum owes them something. This forum owes no one anything. Come, be polite, read a little bit before asking questions. If people would study the forum and watch some of the videos made by members here, there would not be as many questions, but how to get a people from a society that teaches them not to think, to think, may be a never ending problem.


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## Palladium (May 18, 2013)

Where it not for the knowledge of others, i would be ignorant! I don't know if anybody has ever quoted that, but it sure sounds good to me. I learned everything i know about refining from this forum and the experience and knowledge of others. I learned to refine not by physically watching others, but by listening. I never really read Hoke because i already knew her lessons from doing my research here. I really never ask a lot of questions pertaining to refining. I have read and reread almost every thread posted here at one time or another until my head hurts. True i still made mistakes, but those are your mistakes to be made. That's how we learn. Even with all that knowledge you still need experience to teach you what to do with it. Read,read, and read! Even if you do not understand what you are reading you will at a later date and then you will look back and see how important to you that then insignificant piece of information seemed. This forum is the best thing since sliced bread.


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## solar_plasma (May 18, 2013)

I agree completely!

I would like to add one thought of mine. In the short time I've been here, I have learned much about, what I do not know and what I have to learn. For example: Without this forum I would have figured out, how to RECOVER by some processes some kind of materials - indeed I had. With this forum I know, I have learned to avoid some mistakes and to avoid some losses, BUT much better I will be able to learn how to REFINE. To this point I know, there is not one only question, that not had been asked and answered before. There are a lot of discussions here, that make me curious on some side aspects, that not have that much with refining to do. Then I ask, and you know I ask a lot, but you don't know, that every second question I wrote, wasn't sendt, because while I formulated the question, I found a way to answer it by myself. 

So, I agree, recovering and refining can be learned in this place without asking one question. It is in fact all there. And when we feel, we get lost in all the information, or when we don't got a clue, where to start, we have got help every single time! And I just want to say Thank You for that!


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## kkmonte (May 18, 2013)

I understand what you guys mean, however I do sometimes see the other side of it also. Everyone was a newb at one point, some newb's read and understand hoke alot better then others, others i'm sure never even read hoke. I think it's entirely possible to read this forum regularly, buy laser steve's dvd's, etc. and probably learn 90%+ of what is in hoke. Even though i'll probably get some grief, I think it's entirely possible to be able to refine either not having read all of hoke or if your comprehension isn't that good, then reading it but not understanding it.

I'm also sure you veterans do get sick of the "Please help I have learned how to extract the gold, I'm broke and I need the money, as soon as possible! I want to be expelled!" posts, however I think when someone like myself (I would consider myself level 1 support for refining) becomes part of the forum, we should do our "part" to answer the easier "level 1" type questions (unable to drop gold with SMB, too much chlorine, how can i tell if i have too much chlorine, etc). Only after all the level 1 support people are stumped should it get escalated to level 2 or level 3. 

That way Butcher, Steve, Harold, etc. don't have to answer the same boring easy questions they have been answering for the past 3-5 years.


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## JHS (May 18, 2013)

When i was young
i knew everything
six decades later
i know that i know 
very little
same as when i
first came here
john


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## butcher (May 19, 2013)

I joined this forum to learn, I do not ask questions to learn, as the information is already available, I have been here for many years and still have not finished learning all there is here to learn on this forum, Hokes book is only a little of what I have read or studied since I have joined, and after studying Hokes and getting a fair grasp of the message she teaches, I understand its importance to anyone who wishes to learn to recover and refine, in learning any skill an understanding of the basic principles is key to success, and the Hokes book is the book to learn these basics, yes you can also learn them from the forum but you would have to read thousands of more pages of posts on the forum, and the forum will not put it all together for you as well as this book does.

For me this is a hobby, I am by no means a professional, even though I have been here several years, I too am a beginner, I am just like the beginners who come here I am still learning, but I am not new, so I have found out much of what I do not know, until we find out we do not know, we cannot begin to learn, I have made a lot of mistakes, many more than the new members, many of the answers I give is not only what I have studied, but experience from a whole lot of mistakes I have made, I guess I am lucky as I realize if I wish to learn a skill, that it takes a lot of hard work and study (and learning from mistakes), and I am willing to do what it takes to gain that skill I am after.

New members who come here are not that lucky, they come here after reading or watching a video that makes this skill seem like it is some simple process, and any one can do it, they do not understand that this is a skill very few people will learn, some will not do what they have too to get the understanding they need, many will give up, others lose interest once they find out it is not as easy as they thought, those who think they will become rich find out they will not....

Very few will stick it out and learn to recover and refine, those who have been here on the forum who have stuck it out to learn are a rare breed and these are the ones who are learning this skill, I cannot name them all, but they are the teachers on this forum (and I am not speaking of our professional refiners here on the forum who have taught us all and shared their valuable skill and knowledge with us members who without their valuable guidance, and willingness to share their hard won knowledge, we would have never been able to learn this art without them sharing the secrets hidden from man, since man first found gold), I am talking about the members here who help others with what they have learned, some have been here many years, and some have been here a for very short time, ask most any of then and they will tell you the same thing, there is a lot to learn, and it will take a lot of hard work to gain this skill.

This forum is a school where one can learn the skill and art of recovery and refining, where students become teachers of others sharing what they learn, and trying to guide others in the right direction so that they can learn, members helping others.

One of the difficult tasks of helping others here on the forum is helping our new members, they may think they already know it all and just need a simple process to follow to get gold, or believe there really is not much to this recovery and refining thing not understanding the complexity involved, then there are those in a hurry to get rich and really have no interest in learning what it takes, most begin by getting themselves in a big dangerous mess, and it can be a lot of work for members of this forum to help get them out of this mess and get them to a state of mind where they can actually begin to learn the skill and art of recovery and refining of precious metals.

Many will join this forum, few will have what it takes to stick with it and learn this skill, I will try to help those who wish to get started, by trying to get them to understand what it takes to begin to learn, but I cannot teach them, if they will not study or work hard then that is their loss, not mine. No one can learn for another man, all one can do is guide him if he is on the wrong road, but which road he chooses is up to him.

Hokes book will help a new member in several ways, they can begin to learn the language, and with this book they can learn most of the basics needed as well as the very advanced methods in this art, it gets a member acquainted with how the metals act in acids, and can teach them how to identify metals in acids, Hokes book is only a small portion of the learning process, but an invaluable tool for any one wanting to get an understanding.

Many will come here to learn this art and skill few will be able to, if a member who can read and refuses to read this simple book Hokes and thinks that I can teach him well he is wrong, even if I tried I could not, because to learn he must be the one with enough desire to do the work, no matter how hard I tried, or how hard I worked, I would never be able to put the knowledge in his head, Knowing I cannot make someone know, I will not try, or waste my time, but what I will do is try to help our new member understand, what he needs to do if he truly wishes to learn, and I will try to get him on the right road to learning, where he goes from there is up to him, we spend an awful lot of time helping members who only stick around for a short time, answering many of the same old questions, and trying to help them, we never know which ones are the lucky few who will begin to learn the skill and art, but when we see members who refuse to study, or wish to argue we know right off these will never have what it takes.

If you are not interested enough to learn to recover and refine the most valuable metals in the world , and will be willing to read one simple but very interesting book, you do not have what it takes, and are wasting our time, I will try to help you see the reason in this, but I will not waste my time past that point, this skill I am trying to learn is too complicated, there is too much to it, it takes a lot of my time to learn, and I do wish to learn it, I will try to help others begin to learn, but I cannot make them, or learn it for them, they have to do the work.

Harold has always been spot on about Hokes book, and He has always been spot on about those who refused to lift a hand to study.


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## Harold_V (May 23, 2013)

kkmonte said:


> I understand what you guys mean, however I do sometimes see the other side of it also. Everyone was a newb at one point, some newb's read and understand hoke alot better then others, others i'm sure never even read hoke. I think it's entirely possible to read this forum regularly, buy laser steve's dvd's, etc. and probably learn 90%+ of what is in hoke. Even though i'll probably get some grief, I think it's entirely possible to be able to refine either not having read all of hoke or if your comprehension isn't that good, then reading it but not understanding it.


Yes---I agree. I think some can gain the knowledge without reading Hoke. One of the ways they try to do that is by asking stupid questions, which are stupid because they refuse to take the time to learn the basics. That's what we keep getting here, time and again. It's as simple as this. If you can't grasp what Hoke teaches, what makes you think you can learn it by other means? She wrote in such a manner that a fool can learn (I'm living proof), so what magical thing do you suppose would come to the fore by ignoring what she has tried to express in layman terms? You don't understand what she teaches? Read it again, and this time try doing the exercises she recommends. Do them exactly as she suggests, with your book in one hand and the chemicals in the other. Do it a line at a time. If you can't do them, what makes you think you can learn to refine? 

If a reader is stymied by her book, he most likely will be stymied by other presentations as well. No shame in that---precious few of us are fully gifted with the ability to accomplish all tasks---even those we hold dear. I'm a perfect example. 

I love music. I've spent my entire life listening---starting as a young lad with the big band sounds, pop music of the late 40's and early 50's, then rock and roll of the mid 50's, ending when the Beatles became popular. Along the way, late 50's, I started listening to jazz. I was also exposed to classical music, and came to enjoy the baroque, as well as the music of the very early years (Praetorius, for example). Having said that, I have tried, in vain, to play music. I can't do it. The best I can do is operate the stereo, which I do as well as any. I have to be content with listening to the talent and skill of others---I am unable to walk in their shoes. 

If a reader hopes to learn to refine, the basics must be learned. That's what you get from Hoke's book. If that defies your understanding, you would be best served to find a different hobby. You'll struggle endlessly, and most likely remain confused with the simplest of operations in the refinery. 

The real problem, however, isn't that some readers don't understand well. What the real problem is, and it's been proven to more than my satisfaction, is that many of the readers tend to have no pride in themselves--and are content to live off the sweat and toil of others. They are the ones who demand instant gratification---answers to the most mundane of questions, with little to no effort expended in attempting to learn the basics. They want to be spoon fed----and that's simply not going to happen on this board. They most likely aren't unable to learn---they are unwilling to learn, and, for them, I have no sympathy. Fact is, they disgust me. 

If a reader is unwilling to read Hoke until it is understood, it is my opinion that they should not be on this forum. The only exception to that, in my estimation, is if they already have the basic understanding of refining, and can converse with those who refine. The reason I say that is because in doing so, we are all on a common page----statements made by one are understood by the masses--because we all think parallel to one another. 

Were it such that in following Hoke's teachings I would have failed as a refiner, I might see things differently--but I didn't fail. If it worked for me, there's little reason why it won't work for others----assuming they're as willing to learn, as I was. 

Read Hoke. Read Hoke again. Read Hoke until what she teaches makes sense to you. If you choose to not do so, please do not take offense when you are treated poorly on this forum. While I can't speak for others, I am no longer willing to coddle readers. All that has done in the past is create more readers to coddle. I'm burned out from doing so, one of the reasons I don't frequent this board regularly, as I once did. The deadbeats ---the "free lunch" crowd ----are ruining it for everyone. 

Harold


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## srlaulis (May 23, 2013)

My fourteen year old nephew, whom is in the 8th grade, was easily able to read, comprehend and construct a book report on Refining Precious Metal Wastes. Her book is very easy to comprehend. If one cannot comprehend that book, then he or she does NOT have any business refining precious metals as well as using the chemicals and equipment required to do so. That's a fact Jack!
8)


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## solar_plasma (May 23, 2013)

I believe there are very few people here, who didn't need to read Hoke, - most of them has learned it professional, specialized chemists, hydrometallurgists and specialized chemical engineers. To all the other may Hoke be more or less simple reading, depending on there chemical, physical and technical knowledge, but it is not the chemistry in it alone, that makes it so foundamental important. It is to learn a trade. I have learned to teach several subjects, but I am not able to teach french. If I learned french language, it wouldn't be that hard, since I know latin, then I could easily adapt my didactical knowledge to give french lessons, - I would have an easy entry. But I would first have to learn the basics of french language -* systematically*. Hoke is a system of learning, a guideline (the only one that is free and cognitively easy accessable), - the forum is more like the school library, the theory and a source of others experiences. The forum members are like students, teachers and professors, - social learning, socializing and motivation. The practice is where we improve and consolidate the learning stuff, where we assimilate and construct personal knowledge. Those are four legs of a table. Take one away and it will miss its stability.


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## srlaulis (May 23, 2013)

Well said, Solar.


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## gold4mike (Jun 11, 2013)

When I came to the forum four years ago I was a complete newb. I didn't want to break protocol, having never been on a forum before, so I read pretty much every post on the forum. The result of all of that reading is the fact that I've had to ask very few questions in these four years.

When I do, you can be assured that I have already tried to find the answer on my own first. Occasionally there will be something I vaguely remember reading and I'll search until I find it. It would be easier to simply ask and let someone else do the research for me. 

Having searched for refining knowledge before I found this forum I feel that every tidbit of information I get here is a gift. The original "givers" here could have sold this information for a handsome profit but have, instead, chosen to "give" it to me for free. I don't take such giving lightly. Similarly, I know I'll get gifts from my children on Father's Day. I don't go out and ask them for these gifts - that would be inappropriate and take some of the joy of giving from them. I feel the same way about those who come here and expect us to give them these gifts with little or no appreciation on their part.

It has become more cumbersome as the forum has grown and become somewhat unwieldy over time so I understand that it is harder for a newbie to read every post. There are many more posts to comb through to get to "the meat". Much of this is because of those who come here seeking our gifts. 

I'm glad we have some newer members who are willing to field some of the newbie questions. Some are valid questions and there are many posted solutions to each problem that need some sorting out. For me, some of the shine has gone off our "Gold Nugget" here.

I'm no expert, but I am able to do what I need to do, solely because this forum exists.


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## AUJack (Jun 16, 2014)

I'm new. One thing I'll confess..I haven't read this entire thread. I don't need to. It started as a complaint. This field of expertise will either make you money or get you killed. I get the sentiment of the admins and seasoned members. Take it serious or leave. No one on a friendly message board wants death on their hands. Why expect this to be a light atmosphere. This isn't a mine craft gaming site. Its serious.


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## malfeces (Oct 2, 2015)

SO here I am, years later, and I feel I need to address my opening comment. At this point in the game, I have been able to recover several ounces of gold safely and effectively thanks in most part to this forum and to some YouTube videos by members of this forum. Knowing what I know now, I can see why so many members respond to questions the way they do. There is legitimate reason for concern and if these comments rub a noob the wrong way and discourages them from continuing the art and science of pm recovery, then its probably a good thing. This stuff can be very .....very dangerous, and the allure of gold is very strong and can cause people to rush in, make mistakes, or worse, get hurt. While some comments may seem harsh, that, I feel, is most often out of genuine concern for the posters safety, and out of respect and reverence towards the chemicals, processes, and scientists whom have basically done all the hard work for us years ago like Hoke whos book, though about 100 years old, still applies to all we do today. 

So if you are new, and you feel like someone just jumped down your throat for asking a question or posting a comment about what you did, please do not get offended. You can not derive tone from text. Instead, try to reread the response as though your mother or father were saying to you. I have been doing this for four years and know relatively so very little about the science and methods. You can't come here and expect hundreds of years of information to be presented to you in a couple paragraphs with a big bow on it. I have spent countless hours here and am still learning every damn day! Its mind boggling! 

So new guys, the answers to your question are here already. Just as you would not like your child in the back seat asking "are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?", so too do the senior members of this forum feel a little put off when instant results are expected without doing any research first. Yeah, sometimes searches are hard here as a simple search will bring up every thread that mentions those words, and it may not answer your question, but believe that it will answer a question that you have not asked yet and most likely will. 

Best of luck to you all, and special thanks to LazerSteve, and Geo


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 2, 2015)

I'm reminded of a quote, often attributed to Mark Twain:


> When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.


Welcome back malfeces. I've seen from some of your other recent posts that you have, indeed, been studying hard.

Dave


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## ChexMix (Aug 24, 2022)

I,m new to this forum,but not to this particular rant,I,ve seen it on other forums too. I,d like to give an example of how much information is available here if you only take the time to look for it. The terminology used here can indeed be confusing,especially when using acronyms like SMB,AP,AR,etc.But,there,s a whole thread on this forum,easily found,that defines and clarifies what these and many other such terms mean. I found it,no sweat, and learned a great deal at no cost other than a bit of time to read. Just an example of what,s available. Take the time to study these threads and subjects,you,ll learn lots more than if you were spoon fed the info with no effort on your part. Thanks to all who have contributed to the bank of knowledge.


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## Shark (Aug 24, 2022)

Palladium said:


> Even if you do not understand what you are reading you will at a later date and then you will look back and see how important to you that then insignificant piece of information seemed.


That is a fact. That is a fact. 

It deserved repeating.


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## swaminair (Aug 25, 2022)

Me too a learner so silent on reading ,but I run across the forum for materials for refining.Too hard to procure.Always ending up with scammers around,availability of raw materials is the Hwangho(-the sorrow of china -read the term in history though not in my country) just a refresh to forum members.
This forum is a cradle for all babies noobs,so experts pat at.


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## ssmontecarlo (Oct 10, 2022)

I agree with what is being said here. I have read "Hoke". And I still go back and read parts of it again.


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## lanfear (Oct 10, 2022)

I'm not shure if this has bin mentioned in this thread, because I did not read all of it i think the main reason "noobs" are told to do the research is that it is to dangerous to refine if you have to ask Basic questions. When I started out I was eager and wanted to try everything. This forum got me down to earth and thougt me to investigate before doing something New.


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## ssmontecarlo (Oct 10, 2022)

Hello lanfear. As a "noob" and I still am, I agree with you. I don't mind researching past or current threads looking for an answer to a question I have. Usually during this "researching" I read lots of other valuable information. And yes, recovering gold can be dangerous. And refining gold can be very dangerous. Always keep my long sleeves, rubber gloves on, and safety glasses. And 1 process I have not tried, and probably never will is "wet ashing" I believe. We're a person boils IC chips in sulphuric acid. Correct me if that's not correct. Anyhow your input is appreciated. Be safe.


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