# SS bowl silver cell problems



## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

i used to get beautiful large Crystals growing all over the bowl but for some reason i now get soft fluffy redddish brown fiber looking stuff. I have taken the fluffy crystals and rinsed dried and melted them and they look very beautiful. My problem is i can only run the cell for a few hours before i have to remove these reddish brown crystals. When it dries it looks like cemeted silver from copper plate.


Im using approximate 475g of Au in 4L of electrolyte. 1.8amp @3.1v .


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## Lou (Jan 12, 2015)

What feedstock do you run and how much have you put through it?


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

It just started about an hour ago. I use shot that is cemented from copper to make electrolyte and to put in anode bag. My electrolyte has almost no copper I'm it. I'm sure there is trace amounts because I use copper to cement but my electrolyte is clear. I have ran this same way a lot and never had this problem. I am starting to lean towards my power supply. 


I'm the picture you will notice towards the center of the bowl there is a ring around the entire bowl that it is growing slower but with the darker crystals. 

At first the crystals were reddish brown now they are a dull grey with small shiny specs. 

Thanks

Ps. I'm going to try to get some better pics.


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

i had to take a glass rid and clear the bottom of the bowl so that the silver fibers didn't touch the anode bag. The


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## Palladium (Jan 12, 2015)

What kind of power supply are you using? Is it a new filter bag and what is it made of?


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm using a 5 micron poly filter with one coffee filter easier cleaning. and the power supply car battery charger with amperage and voltage control knobs. It isn't digital and I'm waiting for the new rectifier to get here but it has worked Perfectly up until a week or so ago.


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## Palladium (Jan 12, 2015)

So you have been using the exact same materials, concentration, and setup with no changes?


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## GotTheBug (Jan 12, 2015)

Might be a stupid question but you are using distilled water only correct?


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

Absolutely using distilled water. Not a stupid question. Originally when it happened the first time I thought maybe I used tap water but I did everything over again the same way I normally do make sure I payed attention to everything.


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## necromancer (Jan 12, 2015)

stupid question #2

are you using a good quality SS bowl ? or a walmart special ?


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

Not a stupid question#2 ..haha. Yes it is a cheap walmart special bowl. . Does this matter? I used my other Wally world bowl for about 4 or 5 weeks almost none stop. What type of bowl or ss vessel would you recommend ?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 12, 2015)

M6MR&R said:


> Not a stupid question#2 ..haha. Yes it is a cheap walmart special bowl. . Does this matter? I used my other Wally world bowl for about 4 or 5 weeks almost none stop. What type of bowl or ss vessel would you recommend ?



Will a magnet stick to the bowl?


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## necromancer (Jan 12, 2015)

i don't have a cell but i do use SS to dissolve de-plated foils / parts in nitric acid.
first one was a walmart bowl, it did not last 5 minutes. i then bought a Betty Crocker bowl from Canadian Tire. its been great

i have noticed that most products "made for walmart" are crappy.

you can also use items used in restaurants, for there kitchens or hot tables.

the colour you see is the bowl dissolving. it will end up all over the floor.

a magnet will not stick to a good SS bowl


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## Lou (Jan 12, 2015)

You want to use nonmagnetic stainless 304L.


Lou


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

yes a magnet sticks to the bowl. Not very well but it is slightly attracted to it.


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## necromancer (Jan 12, 2015)

there you go. problem solved.


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 12, 2015)

when I melt what's in the picture I get beautiful bars but I have to clean out every few hours.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 12, 2015)

Yea but you are playing with a ticking time bomb. It is only a matter of time before the bowl will probably fail.


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## necromancer (Jan 12, 2015)

Barren Realms 007 is correct, please don't let the next question be: "how do i get 50 toz of silver out of a concrete slab"

with a magnet go buy a new bowl & be a happy camper.

if you continue using your cell you are defeating it's purpose and making more problems. it's used to purify the silver, not make it dirty.
your current method is: 

1 clean the silver with the cell, 
2 silver is getting dirty with the cell, 
3 clean the silver with the cell, 
4 silver is getting dirty with the cell, and so on.

i would bet that it's more dirty now then before it first went into the cell.


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## Harold_V (Jan 12, 2015)

M6MR&R said:


> yes a magnet sticks to the bowl. Not very well but it is slightly attracted to it.


If you're using a rare earth magnet, that may not be the problem. All of the 300 series stainless alloys that have been cold worked will be slightly magnetic. If you find an ALNICO magnet sticks, yeah, it's the wrong grade of stainless. 

It is most desirable that you use a bowl made of one of the 300 series alloys. While Lou made mention of 304L, assuming you can find one, 316L would be even better, as it offers a greater chemical resistance, although 304 would serve perfectly well. 304 or 316 (without the L) will serve well, too, unless you expect to do some welding on the vessel. The L indicates a lower carbon content, which is already VERY low without the designation. 

Some stainless items display the alloy from which they are made. Look underneath to see if you see any numbers. 

Harold


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## GotTheBug (Jan 12, 2015)

I carry two neodims from a hard drive in the car at all times, along with a small magnifying glass (never know what you'll run across, recently found a 3.4 ounce sterling bowl in a thrift shop for 99 cents). I use the neodim magnets any time I'm checking stainless. Last one was a good bowl from Home Goods for around 10 bucks.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 13, 2015)

I was always under the impression that 304 is preferable to 316 for nitric usage, due to the Mo content in 316. I believe the nitric drums are 304.


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## Lou (Jan 13, 2015)

Harold_V said:


> M6MR&R said:
> 
> 
> > yes a magnet sticks to the bowl. Not very well but it is slightly attracted to it.
> ...




Actually, 304L is the _best_ stainless for the use of nitrates and nitric acid.
316 and other stainless with greater levels of molybdenum and/or columbium more appropriate for chloride/sulfate-containing contact; the low carbon varieties for avoiding crevice corrosion.


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 13, 2015)

I know what the point of a cell is and that's why I'm trying to give you guys every experience I've had with the materials I have so I can get proper input. I am trying to gain a better understanding of what materials and why things happen. By me saying " pretty bars" I just mean they look nice. I know they may not be up to standard or the right purity. I would never ask anyone how to get 50 oz out of cement. I already know how to do that. Lol.. Jk

I will try a different magnet I was using a rare earth magnet./weaker magnet was barely attracted. Very weak pull

I will also try a different stainless vessel. 

I'm also waiting on the proper power supply. 

I sure hope this will correct the problem. I really want to thank everyone that helped. I will post pictures once I get everything up and running again.


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## Palladium (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm betting power supply!


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## Harold_V (Jan 14, 2015)

Lou said:


> Actually, 304L is the _best_ stainless for the use of nitrates and nitric acid.
> 316 and other stainless with greater levels of molybdenum and/or columbium more appropriate for chloride/sulfate-containing contact; the low carbon varieties for avoiding crevice corrosion.


Thanks, Lou. I was unaware of the fact that moly was troublesome. 

According to Jorgensen's Handbook, molybdenum is added for greater chemical resistance at elevated temperatures. 

Quoting from Page 14, Section I (1988)


> Types 316 and 317 are more resistant to atmospheric and general corrosive conditions than any of the other standard stainless steels. They have good resistance to the corrosive effects of sulphates, phosphates and other salts as well as the reducing acids such as sulphuric, sulphurous and phosphoric. These grades are less susceptible to pitting in the applications where acetic acid vapors or solutions of chlorides, bromides, or iodides are encountered.


The 300 series alloys are subject to intergranular corrosion when subjected to temperatures between 800° F and 1,500° F. By reducing carbon content (which is already quite low), the corrosion is controlled, thus the recommendation to use the L alloys. 


Harold


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## Lou (Jan 14, 2015)

Molybdenum itself dissolves in nitric acid to give molybdate, a very troublesome anion. Sulfuric acid hastens the process.


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## rickbb (Jan 14, 2015)

If you need to buy at your local big box home store, according to Wikipedia type 304 will most likely be marked as 18/8 stainless and 316 marked 18/10. 


"Stainless steels are also classified by their crystalline structure:

Austenitic, or 200 and 300 series, stainless steels have an austenitic crystalline structure, which is a face-centered cubic crystal structure. Austenite steels make up over 70% of total stainless steel production. They contain a maximum of 0.15% carbon, a minimum of 16% chromium and sufficient nickel and/or manganese to retain an austenitic structure at all temperatures from the cryogenic region to the melting point of the alloy.

200 Series—austenitic chromium-nickel-manganese alloys. Type 201 is hardenable through cold working; Type 202 is a general purpose stainless steel. Decreasing nickel content and increasing manganese results in weak corrosion resistance.[24]

300 Series—The most widely used austenite steel is the 304, also known as 18/8 for its composition of 18% chromium and 8% nickel.[25] 304 may be referred to as A2 stainless (not to be confused with A2 grade steel, also named Tool steel, a steel). The second most common austenite steel is the 316 grade, also called marine grade stainless, used primarily for its increased resistance to corrosion. A typical composition of 18% chromium and 10% nickel, commonly known as 18/10 stainless, is often used in cutlery and high-quality cookware."


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## necromancer (Jan 14, 2015)

the betty crocker SS bowl it has no markings but is very thick.
i think i paid about $8.00 - $12.00 for it.


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## M6MR&amp;R (Jan 15, 2015)

I just wanted to tell everyone thank you so much. The information I recieved will help me for years to come. I absolutely love recovery and refining precious metals as I suspect much of you do as well. I know you guys have a wealth of knowledge that I could only hope to learn a small portion of if I continue doing this for the next 20 years. This forum is a place that has more information than any one person could absorb in a lifetime. I am glad that I posted a problem I was having and I recieved help and explanation without backlash for not knowing or being green as many other forums do. I understand that it takes hard work and research to get to where you guys are and people that are looking for the EAsY way are frustrating to deal with. I don't want you to do the work for me. I just appreciate an arrow pointinge to the vicinity because I want to learn on my own. If you just hand it to me I will learn nothing. 

Source of problem: power supply 


I finally recieved my rectifier!! I hooked it up and it is starting to produce the crystals I normally see. I just used the same bowl that I was using before as an experiment to see if it was the bowl. It is not. Although I believe I need to use better materials the $7 bowl from Walmart was not the problem. Even though it wasn't the problem I going to upgrade to better material. Thanks to you guys I can look for something that will work much better than what I'm using. 



Once again. Thank you all for the valuable information you shared


M6
Michael


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## necromancer (Jan 15, 2015)

it wasn't the walmart bowl.... darn -2 points for me :shock:


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## Palladium (Jan 15, 2015)

I use right off the shelf Wal-Mart bowls also. The reason i knew it was the power supply was the steel wool silver it produced. I have a customer who loves the stuff. This is a sign of low amperage and high voltage. The higher voltage causes the crystals to stretch out reaching toward the anode. You can use higher voltages at times when running your cell, but you current density must not drop. This can also be exhibited buy a smaller than normal cathode or a restriction in the anode bag that is stopped up and needs to be changed. I've totally re engineered the silver cell design and i am working on a prototype that is both self cleaning and allows for the ALMOST precise control of crystal size without sacrifice to production. The prototype is for micron silver production, but will also serve as a typical silver cell would.


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## necromancer (Jan 15, 2015)

11 Quart, 18/8 SS steam table soup pot.
it was in the scrap pile at the scrap yard. it was brand new, still in the original bag.
i have had this for about 3 months, it's a bit big for my needs.




http://www.kitcherama.com/one/product.php?product_id=854&cat=68&sub=321&sub1=13


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## GotTheBug (Jan 15, 2015)

Now that raises the question, probably specifically to Palladium, if I use a very low voltage, but very high amperage, power source, should I not get very fine silver particles? The little beast I built runs 5 volts and almost 200 amps on "full throttle".

Thanks,
Paul.


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## Palladium (Jan 15, 2015)

Small crystals are a function of the design for my new cell, not the rule. In a fixed cathode system i'm afraid your stuck with denser crystal growth unregulated.


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 22, 2017)

M6MR&R said:


> I just wanted to tell everyone thank you so much. The information I recieved will help me for years to come. I absolutely love recovery and refining precious metals as I suspect much of you do as well. I know you guys have a wealth of knowledge that I could only hope to learn a small portion of if I continue doing this for the next 20 years. This forum is a place that has more information than any one person could absorb in a lifetime. I am glad that I posted a problem I was having and I recieved help and explanation without backlash for not knowing or being green as many other forums do. I understand that it takes hard work and research to get to where you guys are and people that are looking for the EAsY way are frustrating to deal with. I don't want you to do the work for me. I just appreciate an arrow pointinge to the vicinity because I want to learn on my own. If you just hand it to me I will learn nothing.
> 
> Source of problem: power supply
> 
> ...



This person's name is Michael Montoya, and I strongly advise anyone and everyone from doing business with him. His company name is M6 Metal Refining and Recovery. He stole both gold and silver from me. I have reported him to this forum and to the authorities in his home town. I printed off information and submitted it to the District Attorney. The have launched a full investigation. Beware of this crook!!!


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