# Should I come clean with the police?



## AztekShine (Apr 8, 2012)

So I'm moveing to a new state in 3 days. And I plan on running a fairly large operation within a month. Weather or not you think I'm going to be pulling tones of gold... Should I just come out and tell the police I'm playing with chems For refineing ,or not?


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## Harold_V (Apr 8, 2012)

AztekShine said:


> So I'm moveing to a new state in 3 days. And I plan on running a fairly large operation within a month. Weather or not you think I'm going to be pulling tones of gold... Should I just come out and tell the police I'm playing with chems For refineing ,or not?


So long as you process for pleasure, it would be my opinion that you should fly under the radar, but do things properly, so when you are contacted by the police (a nosy neighbor complaint, for instance) everything will be in order. None of us have an obligation to report to ANYONE so long as we are not breaking laws. I'm assuming you intend to remain in the US. 

If you expect you'll be dealing with the public and buying/selling, yeah, probably a good idea to talk with the police, as well as the regulatory authorities where you intend to move. You may, otherwise, find yourself outside the law. Do not expect that the laws where you live now are the same where you intend to move. 

Sort of reminds me of making U turns when I was a kid. They were illegal in one town, except at intersections. A near town made it illegal to make a U turn in an intersection. You simply have to know what the law is. Logic doesn't seem to matter. 

Harold


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## AztekShine (Apr 8, 2012)

As always like the dad I never had! Thanks!


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## Jason1 (Apr 8, 2012)

Coming from a family full of Law Enforcement, I'd have to agree. "Its better to ask forgiveness than permission" in some cases. Either way, you might mention to your new neighbors that you refine. Where I'm from, when you see a man in an A-shirt (wife-beater) wearing rubber gloves & galoshes.... The first thing that comes to mind is not "Oh! An aspiring metal refiner!"


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## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2012)

Jason1 said:


> Either way, you might mention to your new neighbors that you refine.


I found out last week,that this is not a good idea.I always made sure that my neighboors knew what I was doing,and I took the time to show them some gold just in case. Well after our next door neighboor's son robbed us a couple of months ago,his parents took his side,and last week started making phone calls.One of the complaints was that they smelled chemicals from me processing gold.Fortunately for me,I have not processed for months,and there was no evidence of anything here to find.
I cannot believe that I took the time,to take this little punk in my shop,and offer to teach him how to process.
But as I said in another post,I am selling everything I have,and installing a fume hood when I rebuild my shop.Then noone will ever see or smell anything.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Apr 8, 2012)

I don't say anything to anyone, I just make sure I am not affecting their air quality.

It's been my experience, sad as it might seem, that if you give someone the chance to steal, they usually will. It pisses me off but it's usually the good person that explains to their neighbors that gets burned. I hate it that things are this way, but the simple fact, the reality is that as things become worse and worse and our economy does worse, more people are going to be willing to steal from their neighbors, their job, or anyone they can.

I tend to think hiding in the open is the best policy, for example, I keep all the gold I save in powdered form, and only melt what I sell. If I don't tell my neighbors what I am doing, then brown sand looks like brown sand.

I know that the police are suppose to be your friend, but I don't really believe that either. I tend to think the best policy is if they never know I am doing anything with any chemicals. I'm happy if I never have to explain what I am doing to anyone. I don't even tell friends.


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## publius (Apr 8, 2012)

AztekShine said:


> So I'm moveing to a new state in 3 days. And I plan on running a fairly large operation within a month. Weather or not you think I'm going to be pulling tones of gold... Should I just come out and tell the police I'm playing with chems For refineing ,or not?


NOOOooo!! Don't do it! Any thing you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Tell the police nothing. If they come around ask for a warrant. If they have a warrant, have them wait until you call your lawyer. Say nothing without your lawyer at your side. Do not volunteer anything. The only reason Martha Stewart went to prison was be cause she talked too much. Tell no one what you do.


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## rusty (Apr 8, 2012)

publius said:


> AztekShine said:
> 
> 
> > So I'm moveing to a new state in 3 days. And I plan on running a fairly large operation within a month. Weather or not you think I'm going to be pulling tones of gold... Should I just come out and tell the police I'm playing with chems For refineing ,or not?
> ...



I agree 100% loose lips sink ships, law enforcement needs a warrent to search while in your case the EPA does not. 

At the other property where I first set up shop had three visits from Envroment, once for refining, a scrap Ford Ranger parts truck sitting in my driveway with another visit over my home foundry. Beware of the welcome wagon.

New neighborhoods are like small comminitys, accepting new comers takes time. I lived in the Birnie house 4 years and never accomplished this acceptance, still own the property and glad we moved to this new place where 90% of my neighbors are Indians.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 8, 2012)

publius said:


> AztekShine said:
> 
> 
> > So I'm moveing to a new state in 3 days. And I plan on running a fairly large operation within a month. Weather or not you think I'm going to be pulling tones of gold... Should I just come out and tell the police I'm playing with chems For refineing ,or not?
> ...



IMHO oponion this would be the worst thing you could do. This in thier eyes will imediately make you look like like a meth or crack mfg.

You buck up to them and they will come down double hard on you. 

You might be visited by your local inspector or fire marsall. Now while you are at a stand off with them waiting for your attourney, they are at your front door getting a warrent to search your premises, and also calling every other gvt. agency they can get involved in this, local, state & federal. You might have one or two inconsipcous vehicles in front of your house.

So now here you are with your attourney and you have held them off for a few hours from gaining access to your premises. You now have 2-5 police cars, fire & ambulance and thier support vehicles, possibly SWAT for explosives and bomb disposal (sincey they know not of what they will be dealing with), HAZMAT disposal, EPA rep's, city inspector's, and by this time it has gone over the police band so possibly 1-4 news media agencies covering the scene. And all of thier yellow, red, white, blue & green light's flashing and your neighbours are all out looking to see what is going on down the street.

They hand you the warrent to search the premises and you look at your attourney and he says good luck there is nothing more I can do to stop them. And then boom just like that you are in cuffs and they are going thru every inch of your property inside and outside. The men in the white suits will pack up and cart away everything thay looks suspisious on the property. And do you think they do this for free :lol: :lol: . Who do you think will pay the cost of this? 

You will then see the EPA guy's start with thier list and every once in a while they need some one to make an example out of. Will that be you? How much will thier fines total up to?

Will you be able to refine any more after this or will you have a bull's eye on your back with your hands tied? What message have you sent to them about our industry and wat we do. How will they treat the next guy they run into doing the same thing.




Here is my personal experience.

I have informed the following people of what I am doing. My imediate neigbors, gas man, electrical utility reader, telephone tec's, cable tec's, city inspector's, city police, fireman with the dept.. All these agencies have access to my property at one time or another. And one of my material suppliers because on large loads I have deilvered their so they can unload material with fork lift and then put into my truck. Now most of these people I have known or worked with for the last 25 years or more. Other than that no one knows what I do except a few people from the forum that have been by.

I do all my processing outside. All of the flight's from the local airport go directly over my house. You can see my processing area when you google my address ( or at least you use to).

This winter the neighbors fence that runs parallel to the back of his house blew down, 2 month's ago he had a crew come in and install a new fence. I come home one afternoon after work and the wife tells me that the fence guy came and knocked on the door and said he needed to work on the fence in our back yard and she told him to go ahead but not to mess with anything in the back yard because there were chemicals back there. Didn't think another thought about it.

Now Tuesday 4 weeks ago I get a call. Mr. Barren this is Chief Fire Marshall so and so. We have had a report of chemicals at your location and would like to stop by and talk to you. I said Ok would Thursday morning at 9:00 be ok with you and he said that would be fine. Thursday comes and it is raining, I get a call from the chief and he askes if we can reschedule for Monday morning because of the rain and I said that would be fine, we can set down and I can show you what I do. He said that would be great, and also an EPA rep will be coming to take samples of what you have on the premises. I said thank you and I will see you Monday morning and I hung up the phone :shock: . Now at this point I probably went flush and light headed and shit a brick. 

Many of you have seen the photo Chris posted resently with his bucket's, well dude I'm running right there with you on stacks of bucket's :roll: . 

So I proceeded to go into high gear and start cleaning everything up with the idea of moving everything off. Now anyone that works with a lot of bukets will tell you when you start something like that it is time consuming condensing solutions. You know the ones you can put together but there is a lot of shuffeling and siphoning to do. 

Well Monday rolls around and I call the chief and tell him I have an emergency tat needs to be addressed that day and that I will be tied up on Tues & Wend and can we reschedule for Thursday morning. He said that would be fine. Now I would like to say that I had everything hauled off but I didn't. But I did get everything cleaned up.

Thursday morning the fire marshall and the city inspector come by( the inspector is a friend 8) ). No EPA rep.  . I explain in detail what I am doing with gold and silver. The different phases and steps that take place, the reactions that occour and the products produced in thier different steps of production, and the final products of gold and silver after the processes. The different chemicals that are used and how they are obtained or made, and thier uses outside of what I am using them for in processing PM's. I explained how the byproducts are delt with and the process of neutralizing solutions. I also explained the number of years of experience in using these chemicals because of work related activities. And that this is as hobby that I have persued for the last 3 years. He asked his questions and after we were finished I took him to my processing area and he took photo's of the area. He said you seem to know what you are doing. I see no open containers that are getting rained into and over flowing and causing a hazard. His major comment was that you have too much for a residential area and the MAYOR said to clean it up and get it off the premises. I asked him if it was ok to continue this as a hobby on my property and he said yes just don't have so much stuff here. 8) :mrgreen:  

So you see study what you are doing and learn the processes and what they do and thier dangers and be able to explain them when that certain person comes asking.


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## element47 (Apr 8, 2012)

I'd have to say that Barren's story would almost certainly be the exception, rather than the rule. 

I offer the following fundamental: A secret, once given away, cannot be reclaimed. 

Barren had an acceptable experience because 1: he rescheduled his appt several times which blew the EPA inspector's schedule and 2: He had a friend/acquaintance in the fire marshall. 

You get an aspiring EPA newbie with a clipboard coming to your home on a surprise basis and you could find yourself behind six figures of fines and legal issues. This is just free money to the authorities, and they want it. 

It's not an optimistic outlook, I'll definitely grant you.


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## rusty (Apr 8, 2012)

element47 said:


> I'd have to say that Barren's story would almost certainly be the exception, rather than the rule.
> 
> I offer the following fundamental: A secret, once given away, cannot be reclaimed.
> 
> ...



Fortunately for me I came out sqeaky clean on every visit I had although the last guy said on parting that he would be looking into it further. That was over a year ago and never heard back from him.

The last visit was over the foundry, when the furnace is fired the propane burner makes a great roaring sound, my property in Birnie consisted of 5 lots which gave me some distance from my nearest neighbor - apparently not enough to satisfy everyone.


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## AztekShine (Apr 8, 2012)

I really apreciate yous guys input.......but can I get a *facepalm* emoticon?


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## Palladium (Apr 8, 2012)

I to have had a visit from the meth lab gestapo. Everything went fine then. Now that I’m building my real lab and not processing under a shed or tree I’ve debated on wither or not to inform the authorities. I was going to just go buy a simple business license just so if they showed up I could say I had some type of professionalism to what I was doing. Then I thought well if I do that I’m placing myself in a category from hobbyist to being regulated as a business. This holds true for pollution laws also. I’ve also taken precautions such as purposely not including a sink or drain in my lab. Even though I have a fume hood with direct exhaust I’m also in the process of designing a scrubber system with a closed reactor system to regulate exhaust, another plus! I’m printing up msds for every chemical you will find and have even went to the trouble of installing the proper fire prevention devices. All solutions are treated and disposed of in accordance with the laws. I’m trying to provide the proper professionalism but still be classified as a hobbyist. All chemicals have been purchased legally and stored in accordance with laws. The video system I have installed is for my protection not only from thieves but the authorities also. All video evidence is recorded and stored off site to prevent confiscation of the video evidence should it be needed. You might show up and give me a hard time but you won’t do it but once after my lawyer files in federal court to stop it. I’m the type to spend what ever it takes to make sure they leave me the heck alone even if it’s costly on my part. My rights will be observed! Bring on the helicopters and the police cars. :mrgreen:


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## Geo (Apr 8, 2012)

i thought i was the only one. :shock: my sons future baby momma was living here and her dad didnt like my son.what do you think he did? i came home from a doctors visit with a yard full of police and firemen.of coarse no drugs were found (and thats what was reported,meth lab). it wound up costing me about $3,000 in bringing electrical and underpinning and fines for that up to code, but now every police officer in this area knows i refine gold and i dont expect any more surprise visits.


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## Lou (Apr 8, 2012)

Unfortunately, the reason things are like this is quite simple:

a minority ruins it for the majority of innocent, law-abiding, well-intentioned citizens. As a consequence, you see government start interfering more and more with the daily lives of the citizenry. Happens with guns, cars, smoking, drinking, healthcare, gambling, etc. More people, more problems--pure statistics. 

It's not surprising to me the amount of issues forum members have had with the authorities: if you are a LEO and hear a report about some guy doing things with glassware and chemicals, it raises a flag. This isn't 1950 any more, and how many people do they really encounter that are up to good versus those who aren't? Again, this is symptomatic of the times we live in wherein there is little trust between those governing and the governed. Definite loss of synchronicity. 


The increasing levels of militarization seen in our police departments (mostly a byproduct of the long lost Wars on Drugs and Terror) is disturbing and probably the harbinger of things to come. Today, we have millions of pages of code, written such that almost everyone is violating some law some time some place. 

For the most part, the law cares not for the small things, and the activities of the most irresponsible backyard refiner pale in comparison to those of a large corporation trying to cut corners and save costs. They also have a legal fund to cover their behinds much more effectively than Joe-six pack who is trying to recover some extra beer money from pins or get his family another Christmas present. That said, if "they" want to make a Federal case out of it, the odds are against the little guy. I hope that discretion and commonsense prevail when such matters arise.


Geo, what happened to you is down right criminal and there ought to be prosecution for the unnecessary stress caused to you and your family and any damages to your reputation.


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## Palladium (Apr 8, 2012)

Very well said Lou. Every part of it!


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## NobleMetalWorks (Apr 8, 2012)

I also keep a binder with all my MSDS, including one for Nitrohydrochloric acid =)

I have a Acid and Fire cabinet and keep my chemicals sorted accordingly

I have a safety acid spill kit I picked up from Grainger

I have two fire extinguishers, chemical aprons, protection for face and eyes, signs hung that state clearly "Danger Acid" etc

And now getting ready to install a hood

I don't see any point telling any authority what I am legally doing so long as I am not affecting my neighbors in a negative way, either noise or fumes, etc. I am careful to do anything noisy during the day, and I do all my reactions after dark (don't want anyone seeing a rusty colored gas) and now I will not be doing any reactions unless in a reaction vessel under a hood. The story that is floating around the neighborhood is that I am hand casting led for bullets, which is true I do so for competition, so I just allow people to assume I'm a hobby gunsmith.

However, if I do have any problems, a fire or some other calamity. Anyone coming into my house would immediately be aware of what I have going on, and even have a kit to neutralize acids. I don't feel there is any reason, safety or otherwise, to tell any of my neighbors what kind of chemicals I have and what I am doing with them.. After all, they don't bother to come to my house and offer a list of all the cleaning products, paints and solvents or fertilizers, etc. And really, almost all the chemicals we deal with are also found in common household items people are mixing together on a daily basis all over your neighborhood.


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## Harold_V (Apr 8, 2012)

Jason1 said:


> you might mention to your new neighbors that you refine.


If I'm not mistaken, I discussed secrecy recently. Disclosing that you refine to ANYONE can prove to be a costly mistake. I was burglarized several times, and know without a doubt it was because I had said too much. Received anonymous phone calls afterwards (long before caller ID was available), alluding to the idea that the burglar was looking for my "coin collection", which I did not have, but I had made it known publicly that I refined gold. 

Second one, the one that really fries my butt----a new customer approached me with a small sample that "contained gold". We talked at length, and I assured him that the only way anyone could gain access was by cutting through my garage doors, as even opening them triggered the alarm. Windows were alarmed, as was the roof (Litton glass break and impact sensors). Shortly thereafter I left town and was burglarized. Care to venture a guess how access was gained? 

When I tried to contact the individual that had left a sample with me, the contact information was worthless. I was set up. 

You want to be secure? Keep your mouth shut. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> You want to be secure? Keep your mouth shut.


That is the best advice ever.
If you have a concern about getting in trouble,then make _anonymous_ calls,to find out what the local laws are.Then you can abide by them just in case,but make no mistake....taking Harold's advice is the ONLY way you can rest assured that noone knows what you are doing.


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## dtectr (Apr 10, 2012)

Those calls should come ONLY public/pay phones, or a cellphone with a blocked caller id. 
Be advised - that your cell info is still stored at the tower, though it may not be transmitted. All major wireless carriers cooperated willingly with Generalissimo Bush's illegal and unwarranted monitoring of wireless customers voice text and private subscriber info. They were charged with various crimes related to spying on american citizens, conspiracy and sundry civil rights violations. Congress decided not to prosecute so as not to reveal how high or deep this went. 
The moral of the story, boys and girls, is id they did it once, they'll do it again if they're told the cause is serious enough. All wireless communication is simply modified FM, with its inherent simplicity to monitor - all you need are the toys,


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## glondor (Apr 10, 2012)

All voip calls are recorded and stored. Microsoft had to agree to it when they took over skype.


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## Beirdo (May 24, 2012)

glondor said:


> All voip calls are recorded and stored. Microsoft had to agree to it when they took over skype.



This is simply not true. I happen to work in that field in the day job, and to the contrary, we only record calls if the customer requests it, or if there is a specific court order dictating it. Now, what Microsoft does, I dunno, but I highly doubt they do it either.


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## NobleMetalWorks (May 24, 2012)

I was concerned about laws that affect Cellular Phones, when the Bush Administration was calling the shots, but I am far more concerned about what the Obama administration has done, and is trying to do, since his administration has been in power. Have you read any of the Patriot Acts that have been renewed under Obama's administration? Currently, cell phone records are kept for several years, under the new laws, and can be disclosed without warrant at the request of certain government agencies. It's not stored at the tower, it's stored in server farms. Searchable databases. With little or no effort involved at all.

It doesn't matter who is in power, who is President or Vice President, or any other appointed or elected office. Simple fact of the matter is this. Every year American's have had more of our rights and freedoms taken away. There has never been one year, since the 80s, that we have not had any of our rights taken away. Think about this, anytime a law is passed, we are not given a right, a right or a freedom is taken away. We elect "law makers" who's job is to create new laws.

Benjamen Franklin said “Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” unfortunately we are not giving our freedoms up, they are being stripped from us on a regular basis.

If I were to be concerned about my activities, I wouldn't use cell phones, but I also wouldn't be posting on any forum, emailing anyone anywhere at anytime, all of these things retain information, sometimes required by law sometimes just in the natural architecture of computer systems, sometimes on a hard drive that was sold as scrap to someone in an unfriendly country. Here is one for you, ask yourself why people are willing to spend $100 for 100 sim cards removed from cell phones. Hope on eBay and see what I mean. They take the sim cards and grab the information off the card, many times there is not only personal information but your entire internet history, text messages, pictures, credit card numbers, etc.

Scott


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## glondor (May 24, 2012)

http://news.techworld.com/security/3288520/microsoft-could-intercept-and-record-skype-calls-say-privacy-advocates/

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Midmarket/Microsoft-Patent-Will-Allow-Federal-Eavesdropping-on-VOIP-Services-Skype-748556/

http://www.conceivablytech.com/8108/products/microsoft-may-add-eavesdropping-to-skype



The patent clearly addresses the need of governments and law enforcement to record Internet calls. There is also a certain sense that especially closed networks are targeted with this technology, yet the clear notion that VoIP applications targeted by this patent “may include audio messages transmitted via gaming systems, instant messaging protocols that transmit audio, Skype and Skype-like applications, meeting software, video conferencing software, and the like” may raise privacy concerns and surely the question of how Microsoft intends to use such a patent now that it owns Skype.

So, Microsoft: Will Skype officially include eavesdropping capability in the future?

A request for clarification we sent to Microsoft has remained unanswered so far.



Update: There have been some questions what Microsoft may gain from such a technology and why it is doing this on its own, without a government request. Some may remember that the U.S. government has actually asked for such a capability a while ago and is offering a boatload of money for this feature – the Register was talking about “billions.” The cost for Skype may not have been so high after all.


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## NobleMetalWorks (May 24, 2012)

If you communicate it (writing, talking, using code) there is a potential for someone else to hear it, record it, use it against you in some way.

Not to be paranoid, but I think the old saying it's better to keep your mouth shut and have people wonder, than to open it and remove all doubt seems fitting.


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## NH4+ (May 26, 2012)

Hello, I am freshly new here! I dont know much about refining but I do know neighbours. Dont tell them anything at all!
I am into chemistry and have a small setup in my garage. My neighbour across the street is very nosy and always tries to take a look at what im doing. ( sort of like Mrs Cravitz from Bewitched )He uses the disguise of walking with his tiny daughter back and forth in front of my garage. He's just itching to pick up a phone. I now do all procedures that involve fumes in the middle of the night. Nobody smells anything and everyone is safe. Like others have posted, dont give anyone even the smallest reason to report you. They will lie and exaggerate and it will cause you grief.


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## NobleMetalWorks (May 26, 2012)

It's better to keep your mouth shut and make them wonder, than to open it and remove all doubt, sometimes.

I belong to my neighborhood watch, one of the reasons I joined was because I had my little garage operation going and I wanted to know if anyone in the neighborhood watch program was "watching" me. They are all good people, sometimes a little too intrusive, but if you have one in your neighborhood and doing any of this in your garage it might be a good idea to join up and go to their meetings.

I thought at some point I was going to have to explain what I was doing, or explain it away in some way. There is a rumor going around, in my neighborhood, about what exactly I am doing in my garage late at night. People think I am some sort of obsessed gunsmith hobbyist. I don't bother to correct people when something is said.

My new neighbor across the street was moving in, so I asked if he needed any help. At one point he wanted to show me his gun and ask me a question about it so I told him I could recommend a good gunsmith for him, and he immediately started back tracking, evidently someone told him that I am working on guns in my garage but that I don't talk about it, or that I am very private about it.

I am no gun smith, I know about guns but I wouldn't even attempt to work on any. I have never claimed to be a gun smith. I have never talked about my guns with anyone, I am almost as paranoid about someone trying to steal guns as I am about the precious metals. But since everyone thinks I work at night, and working on guns, I get the impression that they think I am barricaded in my garage at night with loaded guns. I don't foster any of this, and sometimes feel the right thing to do would be to correct people when they mention it, but I don't.

Only rolling up the garage door enough so that I can get underneath it in case of an emergency, and for ventalation purposes discourages people from walking up to my garage and asking questions. I only roll it up about a 1/3 of the way. And like other people who have posted, any reactions I do at night. I don't have to do things this way much longer, I am getting ready to move into a small warehouse.

Scott


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## goldmike (Feb 2, 2013)

Several years ago I was in my back yard had a carboy full of beer i had brewed . The carboy had a amber liquid in it ( dark beer) an a air-lock on it . I was siphoning the beer out into a korney keg to pressurize it an carbonate it with my CO2 tank. I'm standing there when 5 police officers ran into my yard with guns drawn . Yelling " GET ON THE GROUND !! I almost pooped myself ...Apparently a neigh boor called an thought I was making drugs  I was like WTF !!! Well it was all straightened in like 30 mins the police were saying " well sorry sir but it didn't look good ...Then I kinda thought about it an was like well ok but I could have got shot . The police then checked to see if it was legal for me to make beer ( it is ) it all turned out ok in the end . Never take for granted that people wont jump to conclusion that you are doing something illegal when you are perfectly innocent . I proved to the police it was beer by drinking a glass in front of them LOL .They also smelled it . I was brewing in another stainless pot an had not added my hops yet ,so ofcourse ( hops a green kind of bud looking plant) was also questioned :mrgreen: but one officer that showed up after the fact was a ameture beer maker also an he told the others what I was doing was legal in every way ... I was thankful for the last officer that showed up . He was nice an had common sense . The others were on a witch hunt an seemed to be trying to find a reason to take me in . After that I don't really trust police any more. Serve an protect ? I don't think so .


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 2, 2013)

goldmike.

Be careful about generalizations. They're usually all bad. Wait a minute. Was that a generalization?  

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But to to say:


> After that I don't really trust police any more. Serve an protect ? I don't think so .


 is just not fair.

It's a "location" thing - it all depends on your point of view. To your neighbor, the officers were serving and protecting _them_ by investigating their complaint. What if you _had_ been cooking up a batch of meth and you screwed up. It could take out your house as well as theirs. I hate meth addicts for the difficulties they've created in obtaining the chemicals we use. But that's not the police' fault, or even your neighbor's, it's the meth heads'.

A drunk driver who gets pulled over and spends the night in jail probably feels the same as you, but the police were trying to serve and protect _everyone else_ on the roads. I know, it's not the same. The drunk was breaking the law and you weren't. But when the police showed up and saw you they couldn't know that yet, and they can't just walk into your yard and say "Excuse me sir. May we ask what you're doing there?" It's a good way for a cop to end up dead.

No, I'm not a cop. But when I was growing up my parents had 2 good friends who were. I learned that Roy and George were just normal people like the rest of us trying to do their jobs and take care of their families. Our daughter is also married to a cop. If he ever found himself in the exact same situation, I'd rather he take the same exact action than to go to his funeral with our daughter and our grandson.

It's a matter of your point of view. Others may disagree.

Dave


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## its-all-a-lie (Feb 2, 2013)

FrugalRefiner said:


> goldmike.
> 
> Be careful about generalizations. They're usually all bad. Wait a minute. Was that a generalization?
> 
> ...



I have to disagree with what you said in regards to the police "can't just walk into your yard and say "Excuse me sir. May we ask what you're doing there?". There is no reason for them to perceive you as a threat unless you are agressive towards them, and they very well could have came into the yard without guns drawn and demanding him to get on the ground. In my opinion they should have came in maybe with gun in hand just incase, but to order him on the ground is just rediculous without probable cause. It is also my opinion that the police were not there to protect the neighbors but instead they were there in hopes of generating a little revenue for their state. Warren vs. D.C. states the police have no legal obligation to protect a citizen, unless they are in the custody of the police, and even then it is questionable. I had a run in with my local sheriffs department back in October, i was guilty of nothing, but i was treated as if i had committed murder while robbing a mom and pops drug store for materials to cook meth with. I was dragged from my home half naked, handcuffed, made to stand outside in cold weather in my underwear for 45 minutes while they searched my home for someone who had not been at my address for over 3 years and while they were inside my home they stole my property. I simply answered MY door at MY home at 6:15am with my pistol in hand, and that is what got me this special attention. Without getting too political i will say this, i personally have no respect for law enforcement because of this and i believe if everyone received the same treatment as myself and another forum member who was present that morning at 6:15am, you would all feel the same way.


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## goldmike (Feb 2, 2013)

FrugalRefiner said:


> goldmike.
> 
> Be careful about generalizations. They're usually all bad. Wait a minute. Was that a generalization?
> 
> ...


Ok Dave You do have a point , but I live in a up scale neighborhood in a nice home an i'm almost 60 years old  I was not hiding in a basement . I was in my backyard an there is only a 3 foot chainlink fence . I was wearing a pair of shorts an a Roll tide t-shirt 8) I had done this like 20 times before. An the police had never been to my house for anything. This area is not known for drugs . I think if a police officer is so scared they have to run up on a old guy in shorts an flip-flops yelling an pointing guns ,then are still jerks when they see that that what you are doing is innocent ,there could be a problem . I did leave out a few things like them seeing my closed circuit cameras an asking me for the tape an asking me if they could come into my house ( told them I did not consent to a warrentless search an they asked me if I had something to hide ) Two of the same police officers were arrested for planting evidence possession of drugs and [possession of guns with the serial numbers filed off . Their names are Wesley Little and Ryan Moore. Google it Dave huntsville Alabama I have nothing else to say have a fine day Sir.


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## Palladium (Feb 2, 2013)

Roll Tide !
:mrgreen:


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## goldmike (Feb 2, 2013)

Palladium said:


> Roll Tide !
> :mrgreen:


ROLL TIDE MY FRIEND !!!!! :mrgreen:


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 2, 2013)

goldmike,

I appreciate you keeping an open mind and seeing another point of view. I fully agree that there are bad cops and good cops, just like there are good and bad people in the rest of the population.

My point was that to generalize and condemn _all_ police based on your experience is not fair to all the good cops out there, like the one who arrived at the end and got the others to stand down.

its-all-a-lie, I can't imagine why they would treat you that way just because you answered your door with a pistol in your hand. :roll: 

Now let's get back to talking about refining.

Dave


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## necromancer (Feb 2, 2013)

ya i dont like the way the US makes the rules for the world.

i was forced to upgrade my windows live messanger, after the forced upgrade i simply uninstalled it, thats about 17 years of using it will now need to try something else. (ICQ) LOL









glondor said:


> http://news.techworld.com/security/3288520/microsoft-could-intercept-and-record-skype-calls-say-privacy-advocates/
> 
> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Midmarket/Microsoft-Patent-Will-Allow-Federal-Eavesdropping-on-VOIP-Services-Skype-748556/
> 
> ...


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## its-all-a-lie (Feb 2, 2013)

FrugalRefiner said:


> goldmike,
> 
> I appreciate you keeping an open mind and seeing another point of view. I fully agree that there are bad cops and good cops, just like there are good and bad people in the rest of the population.
> 
> ...



Maybe you have guests show up uninvited and unannounced at 6am, i do not. Im sorry i do not have the funds readily available to live in a gated community where everything is rainbows and unicorns or to have my own personal armed guards, but what i do have is the mentality and the ability to protect myself. Maybe one day us poor people can enjoy the luxury of going to sleep at night and not have to worry about anything because we know the police care about us. Until then, i will provide my own security for my family instead of relying on the police.


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## its-all-a-lie (Feb 2, 2013)

FrugalRefiner said:


> goldmike,
> 
> I appreciate you keeping an open mind and seeing another point of view. I fully agree that there are bad cops and good cops, just like there are good and bad people in the rest of the population.
> 
> ...



As far as i know, the constitution still stands and the 2nd and 4th ammendments are still in place, they have not been taken away yet. BTW, i do not appreciate the eye roll. I am done with this subject in the open forum, if you wish to continue it please do so by pm.


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## goldmike (Feb 2, 2013)

its-all-a-lie said:


> FrugalRefiner said:
> 
> 
> > goldmike,
> ...


Amen brother ! I have a security system that has 8 cameras an it's hosted on a computer at my home an a server in Florida . after what I went through with the local authorities I am a bit gun shy an I no longer am at ease with the way things are. The 2 ex police officers that tried to make me give them the tape an give them access to my house are now in prison . i will never really know for sure but in my mind I believe if I would have buckled under an did what they requested I would have been arrested an charged unjustly . I stood up for my self an my rights an said " no you can't have the tapes an no you can not come in my home with out a warrant" They were very angry an I believe if they would not have seen the CCTV cameras they may have done something that would have been very harmful to my self or my family. I may be paranoid but in my life I have seen a lot in my military service an my jobs an travels abroad . I do not think you were out of line for answering your door with a fire arm at 6am . My security system is two dogs ( they are trained an take commands in Latin yes i'm college educated  an my youngest son is a Latin scholar ) My CCTV is motion sensor activated an my dogs are trained to bite intruders in a very venerable area  ( use your imagination :lol: ) semper fi .... Stand up an represent !


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 2, 2013)

Guys,

I understand your position and I don't begrudge you your opinion. I don't live in a gated community either. No armed guards. No unicorns or rainbows. My wife and are are pretty much hermits. We live off the beaten path and have few visitors. Our house can't be seen from the street. But occasionally someone gets lost around here and ends up coming down my driveway at odd hours. I too am prepared and willing defend my family by whatever means necessary or to die in the effort.

All I was trying to do was provide another point of view as it related to goldmike's story. Our world has changed since I was a kid. My parents' police friends were respected by the majority of people. While there were dangers involved, a typical traffic stop was a typical traffic stop. A call to a domestic disturbance was routine. 

Things have changed. Now a cop has to approach every stopped vehicle prepared that someone may pull out a weapon. A call to a domestic disturbance may end in gunfire. In some areas it's a badge of honor to take a shot at a cop. I'm not saying that either goldmike or you were treated fairly. Based on your accounts, it sounds like you weren't.

I'll repeat my original point one more time, and then I intend to let this go and get back to my studies here. 



> My point was that to generalize and condemn all police based on your experience is not fair to all the good cops out there, like the one who arrived at the end and got the others to stand down.


I'm sorry if my post offended you. That is not why I come here.

Dave


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## Palladium (Feb 2, 2013)

As a kid i couldn't tell you how many times i've rode my bicycle several miles with a 22 or a 20ga shotgun over the handle bars going to my friends house to hunt or shoot. Hell i even stopped and talked with the police when i passed them. They just sent me own my way! Reckon what would be the outcome of that today.


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## butcher (Feb 2, 2013)

True how things have changed.


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## KGX (Feb 9, 2013)

My 2 cents. Don't kick a sleeping dog. :mrgreen:


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## Pikachu2000 (Feb 9, 2013)

Everyone should know their rights, including when they are and are not required to allow law enforcement to enter or search their homes/vehicles/businesses. In the vast majority of cases, It takes more than a phone call from a nosy neighbor, or a simple hunch to justify forcing entry. With a warrant, they are permitted to only search within the very specific parameters provided by the warrant, and they cannot charge you for things not covered by the warrant. If they do, it will be tossed out in court as it constitutes a violation of your rights. If you invite or allow them in without a warrant, you've just given them carte blanche to arrest you for ANYTHING they happen to find. If they barge in without a warrant, make it unquestionably clear that you do not consent to any search by very loudly saying so. Make it loud enough, and repeat it often enough that anyone in your neighborhood should hear it.

Also keep in mind that you have NO obligation to answer ANY questions posed by law enforcement, (other than those asked to establish your identity - and in many locales, it is sufficient to verbalize your identity, with no requirement to provide any identifying documents). They WILL use anything you say against you. You are not required to, and cannot be compelled to give information that may be self-incriminating. Too many people effectively convict themselves by running their mouths, and handing over information on a silver platter. The cops are NOT your friends. Even when you get pulled over for a simple traffic violation, the questions they ask are designed to get you to give them the information they need to get you convicted. "What's your hurry?", "Why were you going so fast?", "You didn't see that 'stop' sign, did you?", etc. These are all loaded questions, and when you provide the response they are designed to elicit, you've just sealed your own fate. Keep in mind that while the police can lie to you endlessly, without repercussion, to accomplish their goal of extricating information from you, it is a crime for you to lie to them. 

To summarize, keep your mouth shut and immediately invoke your right to an attorney.


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## its-all-a-lie (Feb 9, 2013)

Pikachu2000 said:


> Everyone should know their rights, including when they are and are not required to allow law enforcement to enter or search their homes/vehicles/businesses. In the vast majority of cases, It takes more than a phone call from a nosy neighbor, or a simple hunch to justify forcing entry. With a warrant, they are permitted to only search within the very specific parameters provided by the warrant, and they cannot charge you for things not covered by the warrant. If they do, it will be tossed out in court as it constitutes a violation of your rights. If you invite or allow them in without a warrant, you've just given them carte blanche to arrest you for ANYTHING they happen to find. If they barge in without a warrant, make it unquestionably clear that you do not consent to any search by very loudly saying so. Make it loud enough, and repeat it often enough that anyone in your neighborhood should hear it.
> 
> Also keep in mind that you have NO obligation to answer ANY questions posed by law enforcement, (other than those asked to establish your identity - and in many locales, it is sufficient to verbalize your identity, with no requirement to provide any identifying documents). They WILL use anything you say against you. You are not required to, and cannot be compelled to give information that may be self-incriminating. Too many people effectively convict themselves by running their mouths, and handing over information on a silver platter. The cops are NOT your friends. Even when you get pulled over for a simple traffic violation, the questions they ask are designed to get you to give them the information they need to get you convicted. "What's your hurry?", "Why were you going so fast?", "You didn't see that 'stop' sign, did you?", etc. These are all loaded questions, and when you provide the response they are designed to elicit, you've just sealed your own fate. Keep in mind that while the police can lie to you endlessly, without repercussion, to accomplish their goal of extricating information from you, it is a crime for you to lie to them.
> 
> To summarize, keep your mouth shut and immediately invoke your right to an attorney.



^Complete truth!


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## cableman (Feb 22, 2013)

No, and I mean NO. The police have never done me any favors. When I had things stolen or had problems I was the one that was looked at as being suspicious and I was the victim. Early in life as a young man I was a pretty good fellow. Wouldn't tell a lie, help people with anything, never took any drugs or drank alcohol, made straight A's in school, etc. I got into trouble with the law and it was a total mistake. I never broke the law. I got charged and went to court and stood up in front of the judge and told the whole truth strong in my faith that all would be well. As you might suspect, all was not well. I was punished for a crime I had no part in and actually did not even occur at all. I learned then that the world will believe a lie quicker than the truth. I still tell the truth to this day but half the time I am not believed.

I would not involve the police in any way. It is not any of their business what you do as a hobby as long as you are responsible and don't hurt anyone. Now if you were to take this to the next level and run it as a business then I would suggest you get a business license and you would probably have to get some sort of license for dealing with certain chemicals but I would not involve the police unless there was no other alternative. I mean really, why do they need to know anything?


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## Ryriena (Apr 24, 2013)

What if my dad is the local Fire Mashal? He said he'd help me keep in with regultions here in Texas. I have told others, what I am doing like the police and my dad just so nosey neghibhors wouldn't put me in trouble with law inforcements officals. Although mostly I am in a very good realtionship with my neghibors, so I like too keep it that way.


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## butcher (Apr 24, 2013)

Ryriena,
That is great you can have that kind of relationship, if others know you work with the chemistry of metals, they wouldn't suspect a drug lab when they seen you with your lab glass.

Not everyone here on the forum can do that, some places it would be hard for neighbors or the authorities to understand what your doing even if you told them, even a DEQ officer may not understand what you are doing, even after you try to show them, even if you did they may not know you are working safely with the toxic metals, I had a DEQ officer visit me, he had no idea about the chemistry, or how to deal with the toxic sludge chemically, or even that someone could deal with it safely on a hobby level, all he knew is that I had five 5 gallon buckets of toxic sludge, I tried to explain to him, and show him how I was treating it to make it safe, he did not seem to understand what I was talking about. 

You also need be very careful of who you tell what you are doing, and who else they may tell, people seem to get the wrong idea easily, I do not have much gold, but if someone heard I refine gold, they may get the idea I have lots of gold, and they can get rich easily or they can buy their drugs by coming and robbing me at gun-point, I sure would hate to wake up one night with four drugged and armed meth addicts waking me from a sleep to steal the little bit of gold I have worked so hard for.

I guess every situation is different; we just need be wise about what we say.


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## Captobvious (Apr 24, 2013)

butcher said:


> but if someone heard I refine gold, they may get the idea I have lots of gold, and they can get rich easily or they can buy their drugs by coming and robbing me at gun-point, I sure would hate to wake up one night with four drugged and armed meth addicts waking me from a sleep to steal the little bit of gold I have worked so hard for.



This is why I personally keep my mouth shut, a gun in my night-stand, and a very loud and grumpy dog (if you're not supposed to be there in the house, trust me he DOES know the difference 8) ) at my disposal


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## Palladium (Apr 24, 2013)

butcher said:


> Ryriena,
> That is great you can have that kind of relationship, if others know you work with the chemistry of metals, they wouldn't suspect a drug lab when they seen you with your lab glass.
> 
> Not everyone here on the forum can do that, some places it would be hard for neighbors or the authorities to understand what your doing even if you told them, even a DEQ officer may not understand what you are doing, even after you try to show them, even if you did they may not know you are working safely with the toxic metals, I had a DEQ officer visit me, he had no idea about the chemistry, or how to deal with the toxic sludge chemically, or even that someone could deal with it safely on a hobby level, all he knew is that I had five 5 gallon buckets of toxic sludge, I tried to explain to him, and show him how I was treating it to make it safe, he did not seem to understand what I was talking about.
> ...



I support this message 100%.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 24, 2013)

Palladium said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > Ryriena,
> ...




Same here.


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## AndyWilliams (Apr 27, 2013)

Pikachu2000 said:


> Everyone should know their rights, including when they are and are not required to allow law enforcement to enter or search their homes/vehicles/businesses. In the vast majority of cases, It takes more than a phone call from a nosy neighbor, or a simple hunch to justify forcing entry. With a warrant, they are permitted to only search within the very specific parameters provided by the warrant, and they cannot charge you for things not covered by the warrant. If they do, it will be tossed out in court as it constitutes a violation of your rights. If you invite or allow them in without a warrant, you've just given them carte blanche to arrest you for ANYTHING they happen to find. If they barge in without a warrant, make it unquestionably clear that you do not consent to any search by very loudly saying so. Make it loud enough, and repeat it often enough that anyone in your neighborhood should hear it.
> 
> Also keep in mind that you have NO obligation to answer ANY questions posed by law enforcement, (other than those asked to establish your identity - and in many locales, it is sufficient to verbalize your identity, with no requirement to provide any identifying documents). They WILL use anything you say against you. You are not required to, and cannot be compelled to give information that may be self-incriminating. Too many people effectively convict themselves by running their mouths, and handing over information on a silver platter. The cops are NOT your friends. Even when you get pulled over for a simple traffic violation, the questions they ask are designed to get you to give them the information they need to get you convicted. "What's your hurry?", "Why were you going so fast?", "You didn't see that 'stop' sign, did you?", etc. These are all loaded questions, and when you provide the response they are designed to elicit, you've just sealed your own fate. Keep in mind that while the police can lie to you endlessly, without repercussion, to accomplish their goal of extricating information from you, it is a crime for you to lie to them.
> 
> To summarize, keep your mouth shut and immediately invoke your right to an attorney.



Some of you already know, I'm a criminal defense attorney. I wholeheartedly support Pikachu's message. The cops are NOT your friends and they WILL use whatever you say against you. As sophisticated as I am in understanding criminal law, I would NEVER speak to the police without an attorney. There is a saying, "An attorney who represents himself, has a fool for a client."

Any search can be accomplished within three means:
1. Consent, which you should never give, or
2. Warrant, or
3. Exigent Circumstances, which requires that there must be an emergency currently in existence whereby there isn't time to gain either consent, nor a warrant.

Just last week, the US Supreme Court handed down a decision requiring the police obtain a warrant to draw blood in OWI cases. Even there, an emergency does not normally exist, though we know that alcohol in the blood is dissipating every minute the blood draw is delayed.

My personal experience, if you can make it just as unpleasant to be dealt with, the authorities will desire less contact with you. In their heart, these people are bullies. They bring the power of the state to bear against people who won't stand up and assert their rights. Just yesterday, one of my clients, a divorce I'm handling, called because her son had been contacted by the police about several instagrams and tweets. He's a photographer and had taken pics of guns and pills and tagged them with #anarchy. They wanted him to be evaluated by the crisis center. I was there for that "investigation." The woman at the crisis center had been briefed by the cops about what she should be asking him. It was an attempt to have him held overnite, though nothing was threatening and he wasn't suicidal. A punishment for posting things they didn't like. We were out of there in a half hour. If he had forced them to take action or leave, they would have left. Unhappy, yes. But unlikely to return.


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## glondor (May 15, 2013)

Skype. http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/Skype-with-care-Microsoft-is-reading-everything-you-write-1862870.html


Knowing your rights does not always work.... http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/shock-police-state-video-you-have-no-right-to-be-in-here-you-have-no-right-to-be-in-here_05142013


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## cableman (Feb 25, 2014)

The police are not your friends. I agree with all the others to keep your mouth shut. I have been the victim of a crime before and just because they didn't like me or wanted to close the case without investigating they turned things around to where I got put on the defensive and wanted to charge me with a crime when I had done nothing wrong. I have been treated like trash by the police just because it suits them at the time so I have learned to lawyer up and make no statement. They will still lie to me and tell me all the things they are going to do if I don't talk to them but if I do they just turn my words around into a statement I didn't say and then it's too late. Ever hear the saying "Silence is Golden"?


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## justme2 (Feb 27, 2014)

It has been my experience that a cop is a cop is a cop 90 0r more percent of the time. 

Case in point. Many years ago at the wedding of one of my wife's sisters a close cousin who was a cop and who attended the reception and who also imbibed in the usual libations, arranged for several of his co workers to wait just at the exit of the subdivision to arrest every attendee who left the reception whether they had one drink or ten. The real shame was, all of those too drunk to drive were convinced to stay the night at the lake house.

Back in those days there were no Breath -O-Llizers the smell test sent you to jail.


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## justinhcase (Feb 28, 2014)

Well a lot of contradictions on this topic.
I am licensed by the Security Industry Authority and advise corporations , local council and government departments on security maters.
The first thing is that it is imposable to stop a determent thief, all you can do is make him spend time and effort in extraction with as much noise as possible.
I keep two safes one easy to find and one much smaller and well hidden.I also like to leave the odd counterfeit sovereign and gold plated bar in places people will look so if any one did try to take items they would find something they thought was of value and leave.
The unfortunate thing with what I do is that I have had to let most of Exeter know that I am open for business and once you have been at an auction or two buying up all the reasonable priced kit it soon gets around.
I leave my work shop easily accessed by my direct next door neighbors and there for easily accessible to the police.
I would profer they have a covert nose around to satisfy them self's than to bother me.
If you are up to no good it is only a matter of time before you are found out so just don't do so.
A friend of mine did take advantage of the police's hair trigger before.I saw on the news that his house had been raided.
Police tape all around,front door smashed to bit's and the police very bussy digging up and taking away his back garden.
I saw my mate latter on in the pub laughing his head off.He had needed a new front door and could not be bothered to clear the jungle that had grown in his back yard.
So had a friend phone in an anonymous tip that he had buried his two wifes in his back garden.
As he was odiously totally innocent of murder but could have faced charges for wasting police time if they had not been so embarrassed.(he has never been married you would think they would have checked.)
If you are not open and honest people will always want to think the worst so don't give them the raw matériels they need to throw stones.
I would always contact the police but as a possible victim and ask for extra cover as you are concerned for the safety of you self and property.that way even though they are very unlightly to allocate extra funds to you they will have a sub-file listing you as an asset in need of cover and not as a potential target.It would help if at the same time you ask if you could have a list of stolen items to look out for as this reinforces the fact that you are a potential asset and not a threat.
P.S.
Sorry I forgot that your enviroment in the U.S. is slightly different to us in the U.K..
Hardly any one has a gun over here so no one can really force you to open a safe.You just say "sod off " and the chap in a stripy shirt say's"Fair enough governor " and promptly sod's off.I have yet to see a "Meth Head" in Devon but I am sure they will be here soon.
Also I have to add that I was fine messing with chemicals to my heart's content until that "Breaking Bad " came on the telly now every one who has a lab is suspected of being an other Walter White.yet again mass hysteria du to good fiction.
if you let the police know you where planing a prophylactivc deception and lived in one of the more dangerous part's of the world.It might be a good cover for your gold business to pretend you are a bottom end meth lab,at least then 99.9% of people would avoid a confrontation and any real drug dealers that come would probubly pay above spot on there bling.


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## heliman4141 (Mar 8, 2014)

This is a good subject worthy of long discussion,
Myself I live in a residential neighborhood with the homes places on close small propertys, ea. being 50' X 100' next to a large lake so its tight here to say the least. Because of this open space limitation, I devised my own self contained acid fumes reactor IE: Its a 2 gallon glass jar with a plastic lid into which I drilled a hole to fit a rubber grommet. I place the glass container in a 5gal bucket with approx 6" of hot water then place a few ounces of refining material in the glass jar. Next comes the nitric & water mix added yia a funnel to protect from any splashing. Immediatly I replace the cap along with a 1" clear plastic tube that runs to another 5 gallon bucket that I have placed a 1 gallon jug inside, 3/4 filled with water & Urea mixes to neutralize the outgassing. Both 5 gallon buckets then have the lids replaced on them with cutouts for the plastic tubes. Its self contained & IF anyone looks at it they have no clue what is going on as no fumes are escaping in excess. I allow this to go on for a 24 hr. period as I don't add additional hot water etc..to speed it up.
My final processed Gold is acid tested for purity then locked in my safe in a glass vial which nobody has knowlege of that knows me, except my wife. 
I only do one batch at a time & neutralize all acids I cannot re-use & dispose of them before proceeding with the next batch. A must do to stay ahead of it.
Really, the only pita is all the rinsing one must do, that still also has to be done outside because of residual fumes. Eventually tho the final drying is done inside on a hotplate in my garage. All melting to metalic form is done with a jewelers oxy/Acl torch outside also because of any fumes.
This setup has worked wonderfully & only cost me about $20 USD to make. I agree, tell no one but do strickly adhere to safety far as breathing & any contact with acids & fumes. 
I also built a 6' wooden fence around my entire backyard yrs. ago for privacy, which now obviously is a Godsend considering im now refining, I wouldn't want some small innocent child or a pet wandering into the yard while im away etc.......Common safety sense is a must. Try to consider any possible negative scenerio conceivable such as a wind shift, pets, children, open windows at the neighbors homes, incoming storms, etc...THEN proceed cautiously. My opinion after 2 yrs. of this is this: IF your in a neighborhood & not out in the sticks, then manufacture or buy a self contained setup like im using if you do not want trouble down the rd. or any mishaps that could cause a health issue to anything besides yourself.
Gold is an investment don't brag or show off your wealth to anyone. Only when its sold do you have to report it for taxes etc...
Dave


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## niteliteone (Mar 8, 2014)

How many legally licensed commercial businesses do you know of that inform the public or police exactly what they do on their property :?: 
They stay silent for a reason, So do I 8) 
Rumor and innuendo do more damage than truth can ever fix, so I don't even waste my time trying to explain what I want to do, I just do it in the most legal and safe way possible. 
I have had the police on my property more than once and they had no issues on what I was doing as it is self evident I was not making drugs.
The biggest thing to remember is to NOT act guilty of something when they visit. Just mater of factly tell them what you are doing and leave it at that. Offer to explain the process when they look at you with that "over their head" look, but don't in any way let them think you might be doing something wrong act like you have the right to do what you are doing.

PS. Do keep your processing area looking somewhat professional and NOT like a drug lab. :roll:


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## necromancer (Mar 8, 2014)

wow, i mean *WOW*.

i am very happy to live in canada, 
i ( in my own personal opinion) *do not* agree with those posting outside there home country about some of the american paranoia.
american paranoia is for american's that are paranoid ! if you spend to much time learning about american paranoia you yourself will ""become paranoid"" !!
hiding behind locked doors & such............. (get off the youtube conspiracies videos)

i lived in my old house for 25 years & never locked my door, even when i was out for short times, i grew up in a subsidised housing project (in the USA they call that a ghetto) with crack heads and people that carried guns & sold drugs right in front of my house. living in canada is great if you have respect for others & don't shun them for what they are. i grew up with people that robbed & murdered, i have never been robbed or murdered.

i did have a gun pushed to my head once when i was 17, and that was by the police........ (but... that's another story, and in retrospect, its kind of funny) want to know about it? just ask LOL

_____________________________________________________________

here is a 100% true "canadian" story

i am in my back yard last summer (2013), in a 500ml beaker i have some MLCC's soaking in HCL with a wet rag & watch glass covering it, my 17 year old son is watching what i was doing & asking questions, next day he is at school in his science class & mentioned to the teacher about what i was doing.

the answer he got from his teacher was that everyone in the area was being poisoned to death.

next thing i know the police are at my door, i answer & ask what it is they wanted, the police officer tells me how he was contacted by the fire marshal & he is here to investigate.

so i tell the police officer to walk around the back to my yard.
(in canada a open door is a invitation to enter & inviting them inside gives them the right to search) 

so we are in the back yard, the officer is looking around for my laboratory setup, & asks how this acid was being used & where it was being stored,

i unlock & open my small shed (very small shed)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Suncast-...l-Storage-Shed-BMS4700/204508963?N=5yc1vZbu8z
and show the officer the jug of HCL & the beaker that i was using (still had acid & MLCC's in it) and the bag of MLCC's. i took the beaker out & placed it on my glass table (there was no smell) having it covered well i took off the watch glass & removed the wet rag & put the watch glass back on so the officer had a clear view of the contents & pointed out there was a very very slow reaction. (bubbles but no moving bubbles)

he tells me that he has been told that that acid is very dangerous & releases chlorine gas.

i say "yes i know" you can buy it at walmart in the pool supplies section if you go there right now you will see it is stored on the same shelf right next to childrens toys & games for 8 and 10 year old's, and as for the chlorine gas, this will release less then you will breath in at your local public indoor pool & offered for him & the fire marshal to return with testing equipment.

the officer asked some simple questions, took some notes & was on his merry way. i have never seen or heard from them since.

walmart no longer sells HCL ........ go figure.

good thing is..... i do not & have never bought HCL from walmart. i buy it from the pool supplies shop right across the street

to bad that the (*investigator*) was smart enough to go to walmart and ask for the HCL to be removed but wasn't smart enough to see a 10"H X 20"L sign for pool supplies across the street from my yard.

or he spoke to his supervisor & that supervisor told him to go to the walmart (or went themselves) (who knows)


just remember, police officers are most likely the kids that were beat up in the school yard, grew up and found that that they would have great authority working as a (or for the) constabulary. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/constabulary


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## Palladium (Mar 8, 2014)

It's not paranoia and conspiracy when you live it! Everybody should be paranoid of their government. Government is a necessary evil, to an extent. What do you mean posting outside their home country? That don't even make sense being as how this is the internet.


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## artart47 (Mar 8, 2014)

Hi !
It'a probably a decade ago that I had a conversation with a woman who was working as a lawyer in the prosecutors office ( Lake county Illinois )
the discution was that new genetic testing had found that a large percentage of the Ill. deathrow inmates had their convictions thrown out because they had not commited the crime. Several of the tests showed that the killer was someone else who was in prison for other crimes. There were so many that the govenor put a stop to the death penalty for a while, or something similar. Not exactly sure. The government fought tooth and nail to not lose those convictions. They had no concearn that they surely had killed inocent men in the past.
I asked her a hypothetical question! I was not surprized by her answer! I was by her honesty!
If you were handed a capital murder case to try. you come into the courtroom and I'm sitting in the defendents seat. problem? You recognize me as the man who was eating at a restaurant where you were also eating at the time that evidence says I commited the murder. Would you Move to dismiss the charges and tell the court that I could not have commited the crime?
She said no! My job is to try to the best of my abilitys to get a conviction in every case that I try using only the evidence that law enforcement supplies me with and to surpress anything that would interfere with that goal. What if I recognized you as my alibi? She said that she would do everything posible to keep from being removed from the case or being forced to testify, but if she was forced to testify she would not lie under oath. Knowing that she would be helping the state destroy my in order to build her resume, diden't seam to make any difference to her at all! These people are an animal no different than a tiger that looks at you and your three little children and only sees an easy meal and if given the chance would tear then apart and eat them. 
They don't protect and serve! They are not there to help you ! They are there to find a way to get you into their system and make you a criminal .
I read this post and find it hard to believe that you had even entertained the thought of going and telling the police, "hey! come see what I'm doing here" Per-haps I'm overly paranoid, or have just lived in racine too long? mice live under the radar! never heard of one getting sucked into a jet engine!
artart47


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## necromancer (Mar 8, 2014)

Palladium said:


> It's not paranoia and conspiracy when you live it! Everybody should be paranoid of their government. Government is a necessary evil, to an extent. What do you mean posting outside their home country? That don't even make sense being as how this is the internet.



#1 - home is where you live, there is not a living soul that lives in the internet (that is 100% fact)
The Full Definition of "Home" from an american dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/home

No results found for "can humans live inside the internet"

as someone that has there location listed as USA, which government do you know the best ? if you posted those comments i would never have said a word because as you said


Palladium said:


> It's not paranoia and conspiracy when you live it!



thats why "in my own personal opinion" is clearly posted (stated) up front, i wanted all to see that (as we all have the right and are aloud to voice (or post in this case) our own personal opinion without being subject to ridicule)

in the usa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
in canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms see: SECTION 2
by country listing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country

*there is a post above from someone that does not live in america talking towards american life as if they are currently living in america. america is not there home*

we all know since AL GORE invented the internet (giggle) most laws regarding the internet and american made software are filled with techniques involved in spying (its USA FEDERAL LAW) mostly for business software "ie. microsoft office" (no i do not live in the usa but i do use microsoft products & see the news (local & world wide) about how the government uses standard software to learn about what random people are doing, legal or otherwise.

did i go to far off topic ?? i was trying to stay on topic about being forthright and nothing more. that was not meant to insult americans, in canada when we talk about things that we truly do not know about ( just read about it on the internet) its called ignorance.

we are all taught to not believe everything we read !

if anything i thought i would get some slack about my police comment.

do you feel that i should edit my post and remove a certain segment ? 
(Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or ...)
in some cases i do not object to censorship.

and with *all due respect* Palladium,
do you feel that clearly stating "in my own personal opinion" meant something different then "in my own personal opinion"

using that phrase is what stops an argument from starting, not starts it 

i know that the internet is a connection of world computers but we clearly have defined country boarders, limitations of status outside our own countries.
a big question here on GRF is "what is your location" if someone answered "i am on the internet" i am sure there would be some type of uproar.

if there is apology to be forwarded to those whom live in the usa just let me know that i crossed a line. i wont be ashamed to hang my head low for making a mistake.

i can not see how the internet is a real place where real people live, work, breath, have children & create a future. the internet is in no way a real place (in my own personal opinion)

just like these words are your personal opinion


Palladium said:


> Everybody should be paranoid of their government. Government is a necessary evil, to an extent.



i meant no disrespect in any fashion. i am not paranoid of my government. but do believe government is a necessary evil,



i have read this over many times & took a great amount of time to type it up, hope there is no hard feelings between us Palladium, and if there is i just may have to send down a box of that canadian beer LOL


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## Palladium (Mar 9, 2014)

Spoken like a true American.


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## niteliteone (Mar 9, 2014)

artart47 said:


> Hi !
> (snip)
> They don't protect and serve! They are not there to help you ! They are there to find a way to get you into their system and make you a criminal .
> I read this post and find it hard to believe that you had even entertained the thought of going and telling the police, "hey! come see what I'm doing here" Per-haps I'm overly paranoid, or have just lived in racine too long? mice live under the radar! never heard of one getting sucked into a jet engine!
> artart47


Sorry Art, But you see it exactly the way it is :shock: 
They don't care about the truth, Only the conviction, period. :roll:


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## necromancer (Mar 9, 2014)

Palladium said:


> Spoken like a true American.



thanks !!


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