# Possible nitrate source for poorman's AR



## rewalston (Jul 10, 2017)

I was wondering if Scotts Turf Builder Lawn Fertilizer 30-0-3, could be used as a source to make nitric acid or use for poorman's AR?\

Rusty


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 10, 2017)

I looked at a couple of MSDS sheets for Scott's Turf Builder, and I would say no. Mostly urea and sulfates.

Dave


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## rewalston (Jul 11, 2017)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I looked at a couple of MSDS sheets for Scott's Turf Builder, and I would say no. Mostly urea and sulfates.
> 
> Dave


Thank you Dave would you have any suggestions on what to look for? I'm in Ontario, Canada so out of ideas where else to look.
Rusty


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## jimdoc (Jul 11, 2017)

Can you find Hi Yield nitrate of soda up there?

https://www.amazon.com/VPG-33365-4lb-Nitrate-Soda/dp/B0058VAQCI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499747757&sr=8-1&keywords=nitrate+soda

http://maconfeedandseed.com/hi-yield-nitrate-of-soda/


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jul 11, 2017)

Google had a couple Lowes home improvement stores in Ontario
They sell spectracide stump remover, which is 99%+ KNO3


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## Long Shot (Jul 11, 2017)

Hey Rusty,

I'm in Belleville. The last time I was in Watertown and checked on Spectricide there it too has been adulterated and is no longer 99% KHNO3, at least there. Maybe Lowes still has the good stuff but doubtful. There was a fellow up Innisfil way that had a carboy of nitric and I got a couple of gallons from him a couple of years ago. He was, possibly still is, a member here but haven't seen anything from him in a while. Maybe he will see this and give you a shout, he is a bit recluse.


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## rewalston (Jul 11, 2017)

Thank you Everyone for your suggestions. Back to collecting more scrap anyways.

Rusty


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## necromancer (Jul 13, 2017)

Long Shot said:


> Hey Rusty,
> 
> I'm in Belleville. The last time I was in Watertown and checked on Spectricide there it too has been adulterated and is no longer 99% KHNO3, at least there. Maybe Lowes still has the good stuff but doubtful. There was a fellow up Innisfil way that had a carboy of nitric and I got a couple of gallons from him a couple of years ago. He was, possibly still is, a member here but haven't seen anything from him in a while. Maybe he will see this and give you a shout, he is a bit recluse.



if i am thing correctly this person has moved.


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## Refining Rick (Jul 13, 2017)

Ammonium nitrate from cold packs? Not sure if that would work by itself. Maybe you can only get the urea ones where you are. Not sure.
If you can get them you can make sodium nitrate with it. I tried once, it worked, but at the time I was working outside (Oregon can be damp) and could not get it to crystalize/dry properly so I gave up and bought it on line (I know, not your option).
Hope it may help.


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## Ziplok (Sep 26, 2017)

Refining Rick said:


> Ammonium nitrate from cold packs? Not sure if that would work by itself. Maybe you can only get the urea ones where you are. Not sure.
> If you can get them you can make sodium nitrate with it. I tried once, it worked, but at the time I was working outside (Oregon can be damp) and could not get it to crystalize/dry properly so I gave up and bought it on line (I know, not your option).
> Hope it may help.


I know what you mean about the ammonium nitrate sweating. I had 4 dozen bags of the ice packs and after carefully relieving the bag of the water bag and the nitrate. I noticed that it was turning into liquid. I brought it in the house and put it in my laundry room. Then spread it out and put a fan on it. Leaving the room at a cool room over night with the fan on it it dried out. Of course mixing it from time to time. After it got used to begin out of the bags it tends to adjust and doesn't sweat as much during storage. I don't like keeping chemicals in the house, but. Ammonium nitrate really doesn't like heat. Some air a a cool room will help you get it back to it's granular state.


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## Ziplok (Sep 26, 2017)

Hey guys, could use some learning.. I'm using the AR for gold refining. Can't afford the nitric acid. The AR kit I got on eBay had a nitric acid sub. I learned it was sodium nitrate. I have ammonium nitrate, and potassium nitrate. I have a bottle of granular spectricide stump killer. First can ammonium nitrate be sub for the nitric acid and if so what would be the ratio. And the same for the potassium nitrate?

I also noticed that in the instructions for the mix. It say if you have hydrochloride you need 90ml per oz of metals. Or if using muratic acid you use 120ml per oz..... Where or how do you determine what you use to determine the amount of from one type of nitrate to another? Density? Im printing me a MSD? or a chemical sheet on all chemicals that I have on hand. So I will know more of what and handling and storage of them. Plus I know they'll have all the numbers on them that I'll need to know to find the correct formulas for mixing. Any would be appreciated. thanks


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## jason_recliner (Sep 27, 2017)

Ziplok,
Sodium nitrate is good. Potassium nitrate is good. Don't use ammonium nitrate in your PMAR. Convert it to a safer form and you're good to go.
Before I bought a multi-lifetime supply of KNO3, cold packs was all I had to go on. These days, the cold packs in these parts are all urea. 

On converting NH4NO3 to NaNO3 or KNO3, here's a post I prepared earlier: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=24125

That said, you already HAVE potassium nitrate. I don't know how pure Stump Remover is; we don't have it here. But I expect it's probably ready to use. And if it's not, you could always recrystallise it.



> It say if you have hydrochloride you need 90ml per oz of metals. Or if using muratic acid you use 120ml per oz


Also, hydrochloride - or hydrochloric acid - IS muriatic acid. Muriate is Latin for chlorine. The concentration may vary but they're the same thing.


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## frank-20011 (Sep 28, 2017)

hello,

here in eu we all victims of the war agains terror....sometimes in a different way than you out there in US, Aus...
so we can't get any alkali-nitrate, no HNO3 above 3% (it's a joke, nowbody, really nowbody sells HNO3 below 3%)...the cold packs changed all to urea.

here we don't know "stump remover" not today and not in the past...we take a axe and a shovel ;-)

BUT: as a fertilizer for aquaristika you can buy KNO3-Sollution (very expensive) and nitrate of magnesia and calcium (but i've read, they will change this too, i mean CaNO3 and Mg).

The best source for NO3 ions is a 35% HNO3. it is sell as hydroponic fertilizer for arround 6 bucks the litre.

i think there are more fertilizers and cleaning stuff with hno3, always take a look at the products msds.

best regards!


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 28, 2017)

frank-20011 said:


> so we can't get any alkali-nitrate, no HNO3 above 3% (it's a joke, nowbody, really nowbody sells HNO3 below 3%)...the cold packs changed all to urea.
> {snip}
> The best source for NO3 ions is a 35% HNO3. it is sell as hydroponic fertilizer for arround 6 bucks the litre.


I'm guessing there is a mistake in there somewhere. The fertilizer is probably a different nitrate salt.

Dave


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## Topher_osAUrus (Sep 28, 2017)

Well I'll be...

I thought so too Dave. So I got on the google machine and got to searching. And, low and behold. Technaflora pH down in 5 to 10% nitric acid.

Not the 35% he mentioned, but, this was just one of the first things that came up fruitful in my search.
Terrible pun intended


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## Iggy-poo (Sep 29, 2017)

All the information you need should be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate

Check out the French Method to produce Potassium Nitrate from Manure.


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## frank-20011 (Sep 29, 2017)

heIIo everyone,

shure, we speak about nitrate SAITS but we speak aso about AR and the originaI AR is HNO3 and HCI, the PMAR is onIy a way to substitue HNO3 and so i thought: weII, I wiII write how i have soIved my "EU" probIem.

i substitute akaIi nitrates with MgNO3 or CaNO3 or i buy ph minus.

the ph minus i have meant is made for aquaponic cannabis growers...there are three kinds of these products: citric acid, phosphoric acid ca. 50% (growth) and HNO3 35% (bIoom).

this is the product i mean:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Advanced-Hydroponics-pH-Down-Grow-1-Liter-/162082706015?hash=item25bce1d25f:gl8AAOSw-kdX0lVA

i dont know if the situation wiII change but 4 weeks ago i have bought one bottIe.

you can buy aso cannisters...something Iike 20euro/5I.

best regards!

p.s. an other iegaI!!! (you can aso buy KNO3 from poIand and so on) good nitrate saIt precurser is KAS (a german fertiizer KAS is KAIK AMMON STICKSTOFF)
and it is CaCO3 and NH4NO3...take a Iook:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalkammonsalpeter

and even if you can not get it in your contry: you can buy it on the german ebay and maybe the wiII send it to you!

regards!


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## Iggy-poo (Sep 29, 2017)

The Magnesium and Calcium Nitrates can be converted to Sodium or Potassium Nitrate by precipitating the Calcium or Magnesium with Sodium or Potassium Carbonate. This is the process used in my previous post by using wood ashes (Potassium Carbonate) to convert the salts.


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