# the test worked apple cider vinger



## richoc (Aug 29, 2014)

Apple cider vinger and regular hydrogen peroxdie took the gold off a small set off PCBs.

I read another post about vinger peroxide working so I ran a small test.
I placed 3 small very thinly plated gold hot spot antennas in a glass jar.
I poured in apple cider vinger 5% in to well cover the small chips, then poured in regular 3% hydrogen peroxide to about 3xs the volume of the acid.
Checked every 2 days for progress and adding more peroxide after each check.
At the 4 th day you could see 2 dead fruit flys and a reaction.
I use the the apple cider vinger to make fruit fly traps because my room mate thinks it is his job to fill the house with them.
The mixture had become all thinly milky white
I took the fruit flys out and added more peroxide.
I did this every other day for ten days, so 5xs I added a pour of peroxide.
Not much reaction to see on the chips with the naked eye, but still no longer a clear solution in the jar.
So I set it aside for later clean up, I was thinking at this limited reaction came from the fruit flys.
Well last night I went and to clean out the jar and the chips were stripped of the gold, still lots of copper traces on the chip .
Now this was thinner plate, the kind that turns to dust in solution.
But in the week I did not check it and did not add anymore peroxide it took the gold off the copper.

I am got a gallon of regular vinger for $1.85 and am going to try and get some stronger peroxdie and make another test will a better grade of plated PCB.
Now the PBCs I using for the test are clear of all solder and were never used, over stocks or rejects.
Will report on the next test.
I hoping maybe a good green way to do the acid stripping.


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## g_axelsson (Aug 29, 2014)

It's not the hydrochloric acid that is "non green", it is the dissolved metals. No matter what you are using to dissolve it, it still will create a toxic mess.
If vinegar was a better alternative than hydrochloric acid it would be used today all over the industry.

Göran


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## butcher (Aug 29, 2014)

I agree with Göran. 

It is not The HCl acid that is so dangerous in the waste we produce, if we look at hydrochloric acid alone when we neutralize it with sodium hydroxide we can make NaCl or sodium chloride (basically table salt) in the reaction.

It is the toxic metals and their salts we produce that are so dangerous in our waste solutions, even if you used cider vinegar (acetic acid) and an oxidizer you will be making dangerous metal acetate salts. I see no benefit no using this weak acid to attack the base metals. as you noted it takes longer, and will not work as well as using the copper II chloride (starting with HCl, and the mild oxidizer 3% hydrogen peroxide).

Some hobbyist electronic enthusiast do suggest using vinegar, or iron chloride to etch the copper from circuit boards, this is nothing new.

One of the great benefits of using copper II chloride to etch copper, not only that it works so well, and that the reactions have visual clues as to what it needs to keep it active, one of its main benefits is that it can easily be rejuvenated and reused.

Some wheels have been found to work better through much trial and error, that is usually why we recommend using the wheel we do.

When learning you can spend (or waste) a lot of time trying to event a new wheel.

When you could be spending that time on learning to use the wheel that already has been found to work the best.

With study you may find many others have already tried to invent the same wheel as you are trying to invent, it has already been tried, and the recommended wheel was chosen for good reasons, and then you can focus your time on how to use the better wheel for the best results.


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## richoc (Aug 30, 2014)

Then let me state it this way.

Anyone can go buy vinger at the market.

Buy hydrogen peroxide at the market.

You can put your hands in the solution, no skin burning off.

You can soak it right in your home, no toxic gases released from this acid.

Greener ,greener,greener,greener, get it .

I was not speaking at all about treating waste products , when did I say anything about wastes.

I am reporting the facts from the little testing I did.

Would you not like to find a way to do this that can not hurt the new person trying it.
I would really like that and would think you guys would have some thing positive to say about what I reported about this success.

Please read what was written and do not assume.


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## butcher (Aug 30, 2014)

richoc,
Suggesting this would be safe for someone to do in their home, is irresponsible, and to say it is safe to dissolve metals in any acid (including vinegar or acetic acid) in your home, and that it would be safe for someone new to the forum to try to dissolve electronic scrap this way in their house can get someone hurt.

Please do more homework, and think about this more before posting such nonsense.
There is nothing green about this as far as I can see, your discussing putting metals into an ionic solution, making deadly poisonous substances, and producing gases and fumes which can be corrosive or dangerous, spills broken, glass ware and other mishaps, or problems happen in any lab, lab safety procedures, and good understanding of the dangers are needed in any of this type of work. 

Sugar of lead was made this way throughout history which poisoned many people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate

With copper this makes a dangerous solution used as an insecticide poison, this copper poisonous compound is not something you would want to put your hands into, and spread around in your home. 

When reactive metals (metals above hydrogen in the reactivity series of metals) are dissolved in any acid (including acetic acid) gases are produced as hydrogen leaves the solution. just because you do not see or smell a gas does not mean it is not there, or coming from a reaction.

Just because we can use vinegar in our kitchen safely, does not mean you can dissolve electronic scrap in vinegar in your kitchen safely.

To suggest you can is irresponsible and misleading, which could get someone hurt or destroy their home.

Spend more time studying, so that when you do post information here on the forum, that is not misinformation or misleading, or something that will hurt someone else.


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 30, 2014)

richoc,

I don't want to "pile on" to others who have criticized your test, but I do have to take issue with several of your statements.

First, if you're going to use vinegar, you would be better off using distilled white vinegar instead of apple cider vinegar. Apple cider vinegar still has additional organic compounds from the apples that just contaminate your solution.



richoc said:


> I am got a gallon of regular vinger for $1.85 and am going to try and get some stronger peroxdie and make another test will a better grade of plated PCB.


I'll agree, I can buy a gallon of vinegar cheaper than a gallon of hydrochloric acid. HCl costs me about $4.00 a gallon. But vinegar is only about 5% while the HCl is around 32%. A gallon of HCl will chew through a lot more metal than a gallon of vinegar, so if the aim is economy, you'll be better off with HCl.



> Then let me state it this way.
> Anyone can go buy vinger at the market.
> Buy hydrogen peroxide at the market.


Yes, and anyone can go to their local hardware store and buy HCl.



> You can put your hands in the solution, no skin burning off.


I really wish you hadn't said that. Have you looked at an MSDS sheet for copper acetate (that's what you create when you dissolve copper in acetic acid)? If you can't find one, I just posted one in the MSDS section of the forum. Section 3: Hazards Identifications states "Very hazardous in case of ingestion. Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator)." Suggesting that people can put their hands in this solution is irresponsible.



> Would you not like to find a way to do this that can not hurt the new person trying it.
> I would really like that and would think you guys would have some thing positive to say about what I reported about this success.
> 
> Please read what was written and do not assume.


Yes, I'd love to find a way to refine that cannot hurt anyone, and I've read what you wrote and have not made assumptions. This is not it.

Dave


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## bswartzwelder (Sep 5, 2014)

Well stated FrugalRefiner. It seems that almost anything you want to do to metals chemically will be hazardous in one way or another. Welding causes severe burns if you're not careful. Hammering, drilling, tapping, almost any process can cause harm. I am NOT minimizing what you have stated in the least, but merely pointing out most processes involve some form of risk. People have been looking for ways to process gold for centuries. Unfortunately, no one has found a way to refine it using only water. THERE IS SIMPLY NO WAY TO DO WHAT WE DO WITHOUT SOME RISK...

That being said, you have 2 choices. Either find something less risky (crocheting comes to mind), or use a reasonable amount of caution and respect for what you are about to attempt.


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## butcher (Sep 5, 2014)

bswartzwelder,

I agree, even those crocheting needles left on the couch, can be deadly weapons to the couch potatoes plopping down while watching the Tv Tube.

Hammer enough nails and you will smash your thumb.
You can get good at hammering, but that will only slow down how many times you smash that poor old thumb.

Joking aside many things do have risk, some more than others, educating ourselves in those risks, being aware, and understanding the dangers, and using safety practices, or protection where we can. we can help to minimize the risks to ourselves and others.

With the chemistry we do, I do not think you can eliminate the dangers completely, but you can work more safely, and minimize the danger to some extent by educating yourself, and using good safety practices.
Some of what is discussed on the forum like the PGM's and some of the dangerous fumes, or toxic metal compounds, I see are like the hammer and nail, if we hammer enough nails sooner or later we may end up with a soar thumb or worse.


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## bswartzwelder (Sep 11, 2014)

Exactly correct, Butcher. What I was trying to say is that there is no way to do what we are doing without some danger involved. Good chemistry work ethics will help some. It seems the more you try to foolproof something, the more likely some fool is to make a mistake or use a "do around" to circumvent the system. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. However, you can certainly make him wish he had.


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## butcher (Sep 11, 2014)

"you can certainly make him wish he had"

The horses I have had would just look at me with a dumb look in their eyes, wondering what I was trying to tell him, he would not be able to put it together under that thick skull of his.


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