# Need some info about borax for flux



## searcher1x (Mar 22, 2015)

I seem to have a little problem when I go to melt the gold. I need some advice about how much Borax to use. Every time I have tryed to melt down the gold I end up with everything encased in a Borax glass case. Obviously I'm either using too much Borax or I have missed something somewherer along the way. How much is enough and how much is too much? Should there be any flux left when you finish melting the gold? I've read both of the books that this site recommends abiut refining and identifing metals but nowhere in any of the info I've read does it address the usage of flux in any detail what-so-ever, jsut add Borax and melt, then add flakes and more Borax on top and start heating. Problem is I am screwing it up somehow! Any feedback is welcome!


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## Palladium (Mar 22, 2015)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2YLSZ-kj0M[/youtube]


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## kurtak (Mar 23, 2015)

Just to clarify - the point Palladium is making with his video is that if the gold you are melting is clean & pure - you do not need to use any flux - the borax used to glaze your melting dish is all you need - to much borax will cause your gold to hang up in the dish

If your gold is now hung up in your dish (because of to much borax) you can recover it (clean your dish out) by melting soda ash in it (also called washing soda) you can find it on the shelf by the borax in laundry detergent area of the store

The soda ash will make the flux run more fluid 

Fluxing is only needed when trying to melt/recover metals from very dirty material - which is then known as smelting

Kurt


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## MarcoP (Mar 23, 2015)

Probably Palladium is referring to the details given at 6:58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2YLSZ-kj0M&feature=player_detailpage#t=418 which is basically what Kurt is saying.


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## searcher1x (Mar 23, 2015)

Kurt, thanks for breaking it down for me! That tid-bit of information was not in the material I read. And yes, you nailed it! I'm going to have to take my "glass encased" gold and start another recovery process. Prior to joining this forum and/or reading the "book", I had read several different systems to recover and refine. Funny thing, the first process I read did NOT mention the use of AR or MA+Bleach to put the gold in solution and, consequently I did not put it in solution. Something I noticed after reading the "book" was that all of the different processes I had previously read all seemed to leave out important steps and information. Guess the authors just figured you would need to figure certain steps out by yourself.

Thanks again for the feedback and, just for kicks, I think I'll read the book again just to see what I might have missed or forgot and then start over with my "gold in glass" material.


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## Harold_V (Mar 24, 2015)

searcher1x said:


> Something I noticed after reading the "book" was that all of the different processes I had previously read all seemed to leave out important steps and information. Guess the authors just figured you would need to figure certain steps out by yourself.


You made no mention of the title of "the book", but my advice to you is if you learned the processes you have applied anywhere but on this forum, you would be best served to "ditch" the book and get started on the right foot, studying processes that are KNOWN to work, and are well described. Such processes are found in Hoke's book, plus any of the work-about methods used for extracting and purifying gold are well described on this board. 

If you choose to ignore my recommendations, it's highly unlikely you're going to get much help here, because this board has been overwhelmed with those who have been misinformed, so we've learned to just tune them out when they resist following advice that would help them in their venture. 

Download Hoke's book and read. Read it until it makes sense, then study the forum, addressing particular issues that are troubling for you. Pretty much anything you may wish to learn is here, and has been addressed countless times. Mean time, put your materials on hold. You won't lose any values so long as you don't discard anything, and you also won't make much headway until you have an understanding of what you should know before setting out to refine. You clearly have been mislead. 

Harold


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## justinhcase (Mar 24, 2015)

If you have used to much borax you can just pick out the button.
there should be a sweet spot just passed the point of solidification for the gold before the borax hardens.
It will be like treacle but that is how it is some time's used,in excess.
Total unnecessary for clean Au but if you already have a button that is stuck 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Sawj0HyF0


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## searcher1x (Nov 13, 2015)

Harold_V said:


> searcher1x said:
> 
> 
> > Something I noticed after reading the "book" was that all of the different processes I had previously read all seemed to leave out important steps and information. Guess the authors just figured you would need to figure certain steps out by yourself.
> ...



Harold, the "book: i was referring too was Hokes book that I downloaded from the form and have read several times. If you take a look Hoke does not really give a great deal of information about Borax flux and the proper use o, at least not that I could find


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## searcher1x (Nov 13, 2015)

justinhcase said:


> If you have used to much borax you can just pick out the button.
> there should be a sweet spot just passed the point of solidification for the gold before the borax hardens.
> It will be like treacle but that is how it is some time's used,in excess.
> Total unnecessary for clean Au but if you already have a button that is stuck
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Sawj0HyF0



justincase, I think I made 2 mistakes. 

First, from what I read I had the impression from Hokes book that when you melted gold none of the other metals would mix with it and would burn or off. I did not realize that there was a greater degree of heat necessary for this to take place. The gold was not that clean because I thought the other metals would burn off and the gold form by itself 

Second, I don't believe that my heat source was in any way near hot enough. I was using a hand held propane torch and it would just barely turn the metals to a liquid. The borax never got to an easy flow liquid state like I have seen in some videos


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## torscot (Nov 13, 2015)

if you want to get rid of your borax glass bead, and leave the gold. Put your bead in a dilute solution of Sulfuric (battery) acid and gently heat. Borax glass dissolves in Sulfuric acid. What you have left is your gold. Be it one piece, or several beads that got hung up in the borax as it cooled. Remelt the gold and you back on track. It's a good way to clean up excess flux.


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## artart47 (Nov 13, 2015)

Hi Searcher!
Welcome to our forum. If I'm understanding it correctly, you never truly refined the gold. Fellow members have advised you about thinning the borax encased gold so you can pour off the extra flux and lift the gold button out before the remaining flux solidifies. Giving the gold button a boil in dilute sulfuric acid. that will dissolve borax that remains on your gold.
Once you separate the gold from the flux you can purify it by dissolving it in AR, dropping the gold from solution with SMB, further clean the gold powder using the "Harold's washing steps" and then melt your gold in a properly-glazed dish using your propane torch by (my tip) laying a piece of ceramic insulation on a brick, set your dish on the insulation and push it up around the dish so it insulates the sides of the dish this keeps the heat in the dish, I've melted two ounces with your torch with no problem.
You must take each of these steps, use the search bar, read the posts about it until you completely understand it, then perform that step.
Don't forget to study the safety section and learn how to handle the wastes you will be creating.
Good luck! 
artart47

post your results so we can see your gold!

edit; Torscot; your post hit while I was typing mine. ( sulfuric......)


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## butcher (Nov 14, 2015)

searcher1x,
Listen to Harold he is very wise and will Help to lead you to your gold.

At this point you are just wandering around in the dark clueless.

And you will just continue be stumbling around forever tripping yourself up on every process that you try, without a clue as to what problems your causing, or where all of the gold your trying to recover or refine is going, lost in some process, your stumbling through thinking you have a simple understanding of a very complex art and skill.

Put away the gold and chemicals, before you hurt yourself or someone else.

Begin your journey by educating yourself in the basic principles, and safety of what you plan on doing.

Put away the acids and chemicals, work on the education, that is the treasure map to the gold you seek.


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## searcher1x (Nov 17, 2015)

artart47 said:


> Hi Searcher!
> Welcome to our forum. If I'm understanding it correctly, you never truly refined the gold. Fellow members have advised you about thinning the borax encased gold so you can pour off the extra flux and lift the gold button out before the remaining flux solidifies. Giving the gold button a boil in dilute sulfuric acid. that will dissolve borax that remains on your gold.
> Once you separate the gold from the flux you can purify it by dissolving it in AR, dropping the gold from solution with SMB, further clean the gold powder using the "Harold's washing steps" and then melt your gold in a properly-glazed dish using your propane torch by (my tip) laying a piece of ceramic insulation on a brick, set your dish on the insulation and push it up around the dish so it insulates the sides of the dish this keeps the heat in the dish, I've melted two ounces with your torch with no problem.
> You must take each of these steps, use the search bar, read the posts about it until you completely understand it, then perform that step.
> ...



Thank you artart47. I appreciate you taking the time to give me those suggestions. I especially appreciate what you told me about about the propane torch. At least now I know that, if properly cleaned and refined, it is possible to generate enough heat with a propane torch to melt gold.

Glad to see that some of the members of this forum are willing to offer positive, informative feedback. No offence intended to anyone.


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## searcher1x (Nov 17, 2015)

butcher said:


> searcher1x,
> Listen to Harold he is very wise and will Help to lead you to your gold.
> 
> At this point you are just wandering around in the dark clueless.
> ...



Butcher, although I know you mean well by the comments you offer to all my posts, and perhaps you are entirely right in what you say, but (and I don't mean to offend you with this) from the way you word many of the comments you post to my threads I get the impression you are talking down to me, and to some degree that is offensive, whether you intend it that way or not.

I didn't join this forum to fight, offend or insult any member, nor did I join it to be insulted or offended by others. I joined this forum because it is the one place I found where good reliable and informative answers to many questions raised by someone who is deep in the learning process can be found. I fully understand that compared to you or harold or lazersteve or many, many of the other members I am viewed as a rank rookie and I can live with that. However we all have to start somewhere and very few of us get to start at the top.

Again, I know you mean well (at least I hope you do) with the comments you have made to many of my threads and I do appreciate the quick chemistry lesson you rendered to a different thread of mine, but I'm not as dumb as you take me for. Agreed, in no way, shape, form or fashion am I anywhere close to the level you are on and, quite frankly, I never will be nor do I want to be. I do have 15 years experience with certain chemicals, acid-basing, oxidation and a few other processes that I will not go into in this forum; this is neither the time or place for that. I understand the risk involved and some precautionary measures necessary for safe handling. Not to say I never will, but I have managed to stay alive and healthy through those years and I'm particularly proud of the fact that I have never blown me or my work area up in that time. I hope that I can continue that record.

Post after post you keep telling me how lost and foolish I am at this stage and to put down the chemicals and concentrate solely of learning. You may be right. Again, I know you have good intentions by this advise, but we all have different ways of learning. Some learn by watching, others by reading, others by trial and error, then there are those who learn by a combination of all 3 strategies. Indeed, I believe the vast majority of people learn by a combination of watching, reading and trial and error; I am no different.

I did not learn how to drive a car by just studying and reading a book. I learned by reading the necessary materials, observing others and getting behind the wheel and gaining experience. Was I the best driver on the roads first time I got behind the wheel? Of course not! Did I make mistakes when I first got behind the wheel? Sure I did. Would I ever have learned to drive if I never got behind the wheel. No, and anyone who believes anything different is just fooling thyself. 

I consider myself to be an expert with computers and one of the more knowledgeable and experienced Linux users around. I never had a day of schooling for computers, no formal training what-so-ever. Matter of fact I had a few years on me when before I pounded my first keyboard. No one ever helped me, offered any advice or training. I got to the level I am at by, reading everything I could get my hands on; listening to the experiences of others; and more-so by pounding keys! Trial and error, and I made plenty of mistakes and errors along the way, but learn I did. When it comes to the ever evolving technology that surrounds the computer world I learn something new every day. Like yourself and the burning desire you have when it comes to chemistry, that desire to fully understand and absorb everything possible about chemistry and the tools of that trade, that's how I feel about computers and the tools of that trade. You definitely realized your goal and from what I have observed of you, are at or near the top of the ladder. You achieved this dream because that was something you wanted more than anything else and because you never quit in your journey to the top. I take my hat off too you!

The point I am trying to make is you don't know how to take a care apart to drive one, you don;t even know how to change the oil. There are others who can do that for you. You don't have to know how to program a computer or work on one in order to use one. You don't have to know anything about a computer other than how to turn it on and off to set down in front of a keyboard and start pounding keys and accomplish certain tasks. Fact is Microsoft does not want you to know anything about computers, they what users to sat "user dumb". That leads to increased profits on their part, but that discussion is best held in a different forum and not here. 

The point I am trying to make Is you don't have to know or understand molecular structure or the relative interaction of how to substances react when combined under certain circumstances in order yo learn how to accomplish certain desired tasks that involve using chemicals to receive a desired end goal. You don't have to know how to mathematically figure the weight in mole of two or more chemicals to properly use those chemicals to achieve a desired end result. There are others who can do that for you are more than willing to make that information available to the public.

I have no need or desire to master the art of chemistry, nor is that an absolute to reach my goal. I intend to familiarize myself with the tools, materials and procedures required to perform certain recovery and refining processes. I believe I can reach this goal by, first and foremost, reading and learning from a variety of sources; by asking questions, keeping an open mind and learning from the experience of others; by application of what I read and the experiences and advice of others; and last, but not least, by trial and error, this is the only way, IMHO that anyone can truly learn something new, at least it's the only way I can learn. Will I screw up along the way? Will I make mistakes? Will I waste money, precious resources and chemicals while walking along this path? You better believe it!

But the most important question of all; will I achieve my goal of learning how to reclaim and refine certain metals? I can guarantee you 100% that I will reach that goal.

I know this has been a rather "long-winded" post and even though you have criticized me before on "long-winded" posts, I have read many of your posts and you, sir, are guilty of the same act and can get a little "long-winded" yourself at times. All that shows is that you, like myself, want to make sure what you have to say is perfectly clear and understood. For the length of my post, I apologize.

Let me close by saying that nothing I have written above was intended to insult, offend or enrage any of the members of this forum. That was not the desired effect and if someone was insulted or offended then please accept my humble apologizes. Just please understand I neither have the time or desire to become a master of chemistry, that's not my goal. I just want to learn how to recover and refining, the tools needed for this and the basic, underling principles surrounding these processes. If making these statements result in some who turn their heads and refuse to help or offer me any advice along my journey then I am truly sorry you feel that way, but with or without that help I will get to the end of the path.


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## searcher1x (Nov 17, 2015)

torscot said:


> if you want to get rid of your borax glass bead, and leave the gold. Put your bead in a dilute solution of Sulfuric (battery) acid and gently heat. Borax glass dissolves in Sulfuric acid. What you have left is your gold. Be it one piece, or several beads that got hung up in the borax as it cooled. Remelt the gold and you back on track. It's a good way to clean up excess flux.




Thanks torscot for that information, I will definitely remember it. Once Borax goes to glass it's some very tough and durable stuff!


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## jimdoc (Nov 17, 2015)

You still here? With your crappy attitude.


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## upcyclist (Nov 17, 2015)

Searcher--

I understand where you're coming from. I really do. But I also understand where the senior mentors on this board are coming from. Regardless of where I side, please consider this:

In one of your last two posts, you spent a short paragraph thanking someone for their helpful tip. In the other, you spent 12 longer paragraphs railing on the condescension you feel you have been subjected to. Which of the two do you think you will be remembered for, especially by the aforementioned senior mentors?

I suggest you swallow your pride and only respond to the posts you find helpful.


_Edit: some grammar and emphasis_


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## butcher (Nov 18, 2015)

searcher1x,
Nobody is attacking you, they were trying to help.
You are taking this help as an attack.
I also feel your responses, look to some other members of the forum as an attitude.
I do not see it that way, I just feel your just clueless, but think you know the best way to learn this skill.

In my opinion, I believe you think you will find your answers, by knowing nothing about mechanics but will learn by taking the car apart (by any means possible), and then trying to put it all back together again, and get it running again. By asking questions, which you will not even have enough of the basic knowledge, or understanding of mechanics, to even understand those answers given to you. In the mean time sitting there with a pile of broken parts, not even knowing what they are called, or what they do, and wondering where they go.

All I was saying is at least spend some time learning at least the basic principles of mechanic's before you destroy that car, or many more cars trying to learn.

Learn the safety and the dangers involved, and the dangers of the toxic solutions you are generating, and learn how to deal with them properly before you harm yourself, or others who come into the path of your trials and errors.

Looks like I have wasted my time trying to help you understand the dangers involved in what you are trying to learn, or the best and fastest way to begin to understand the reactions of metals, and the very basic principles needed to be able to recover and refine metals.

Educating yourself will not only keep you from stumbling around in the dark, it is not only the fastest way to learn how to recover and refine metals, it is not only the best way to get that gold and learn to recover it and make it pure and get it into your melting dish, it is also the best way to keep yourself and others safe from the many different dangers involved in the skill you are attempting to learn.
Without that simple basic education, you are just a danger to yourself and others, stumbling around blindly, making toxic gases and solutions, trying to figure out where the metals are going as you stumble through trying to learn the hard way.


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## searcher1x (Nov 18, 2015)

butcher said:


> searcher1x,
> Nobody is attacking you, they were trying to help.
> You are taking this help as an attack.
> I also feel your responses, look to some other members of the forum as an attitude.
> ...



Thank you for that response butcher and I am doing just that. Sure, I have a long way to go but believe it or not I do search and read every day. I always have a copy of Hoke's book open on desktop in .pdf format and when problems or questions pop up I use the search feature to do a quick scan for some text or passage that may help. I realize that there is a ton of excellent information contained within the posts on this forum. I look for answers constantly but I'm still trying to figure out the best way to use this sites search feature. Sometimes I find the answers, other times I get "information overload", too many hits, the vast majority of which do not specifically address my question. Filtering through that vast amount of data can be a daunting task sometimes, but I keep searching.

Also, thank you for realizing that I don't have an attitude. I just don't believe that when you think there may be a problem or possible misunderstanding with someone else that you should table the issue and let tensions build until things finally get out of hand. Lay your cards on the table, be nice, polite and respectful and let others know how you feel about something that's going on. They may not understand that their actions, well intended as they be, are not received in the same light. 

I have a great deal of respect for you and what you have accomplished in such a short period of time. I will keep learning, searching and even have my share of failures but I will never give up until I get where I need to be. With help and support from you and those so much more knowledgeable than myself there is no chance of failure. 

I hope nothing I have ever written has offended you or been taken in a bad way, if so I apologize.

Thanks for the help you have given


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## galenrog (Nov 18, 2015)

At the very real risk of appearing aggressive and insulting I am going to ask a few questions and make a few short statements.

How much of "Refining Precious Metal Wastes" have you read? My suggestion is to read the entire book. Read it again. Read a third time while making notes and putting questions to paper. Perform the acquaintance experiments found throughout the book while making notes, on paper, of the results of each reaction.

How many hours have you spent reading the safety section of the forum? If short of a few hundred hours you may be selling yourself short. Understanding the safety procedures is just part of the task. Understanding the reasons behind the procedures, and constant adherence to these procedures will keep you healthy and alive.

Have you been to the Library? This section of the forum was created by editing fluff from some of the most informative threads since creation of the forum. EVERY question you have asked regarding recovery and refining has been answered in the Library. 

If you truly do not understand a procedure, of an unusual reaction occurs, then please ask. Someone will direct you to the answer. That the answer will please you is not guaranteed.

My advice for ALL your recovery and refining is to slow down, perform small scale experiments with each procedure repeatedly until you understand the results, both the expected results and the reasons behind any unexpected results.

Learning proper procedures in metals recovery and metals refining is not something most people learn in a week or a month or even a year. Do it slow. Do it right. 

Time for coffee. Goodbye.


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## Harold_V (Nov 22, 2015)

searcher1x said:


> Harold, the "book: i was referring too was Hokes book that I downloaded from the form and have read several times. If you take a look Hoke does not really give a great deal of information about Borax flux and the proper use o, at least not that I could find


First, to be clear, I have no need to "take a look". I'm not the one asking the questions, nor am I the one who is confused about how much borax is needed, or desired. 

I find it strange that you claim to have read Hoke's book "several times", yet you'd post something like this:


> The gold was not that clean because I thought the other metals would burn off and the gold form by itself


You clearly have learned nothing from Hoke's book. 



> I just want to learn how to recover and refining, the tools needed for this and the basic, underling principles surrounding these processes


Contrary to your opinion, that's precisely what the readers have tried to give you. They know, as do I, what you must know in order to process precious metals to some degree of success. There are no shortcuts---you simply have to jump through the hoops until you understand the procedures. If you're not willing to take the time to achieve that end, you're not only wasting your time, you're wasting ours, and I don't take too kindly to that. 

Here's what you need to do.

Start reading Hoke's book. Really read it. Don't thumb through it, picking and choosing what you think you need to know. Read it all, then read it again. Read it until it makes sense to you. If it never makes sense, refining is not for you. Find a different way to amuse yourself.

Assuming the book starts to make sense, perform the experiments she provides. Without doing them, you won't understand the things you need to know to refine properly. There are many instances where metals in solution will look like gold, but the solution may not contain any. How will you make that determination if you are not familiar with testing techniques? How will you know if or when you have recovered gold that has been put in solution? 

Don't continue this bombardment of apologies and explanations. I expect I'm old enough to be your grandfather, and I've seen and heard pretty much every excuse that can be conjured in regards to why a person won't put aside the entitlement attitude and get on with the business of learning. Do not ask questions. You aren't prepared for the answers, as you clearly do not understand any of the basics. 

No one is going to hold your hand long enough for you to learn to refine without learning the basics, because each of us knows well that such people never stop asking stupid questions. That's not what we're here for. We're here to help those who know how to, and are willing to help themselves.

I am very short of patience with some folks. To put it bluntly, I do not suffer fools gladly. I, as well as all moderators on this board, have the power to ban you. Don't give us any reasons beyond those you've already given. Pay attention to what you've been told, study as if it means something to you, and report on your progress. Failing to to that, I see a banishment in your future. 

It is up to you to prove to us that you are not the fool I spoke of. Are you? Your response to this post will be all telling.

Harold


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## searcher1x (Jan 11, 2016)

Harold, 


Harold_V said:


> First, to be clear, I have no need to "take a look". I'm not the one asking the questions, nor am I the one who is confused about how much borax is needed, or desired.


 You're right. I stand corrected



Harold_V said:


> I find it strange that you claim to have read Hoke's book "several times", yet you'd post something like this:
> 
> 
> > The gold was not that clean because I thought the other metals would burn off and the gold form by itself


Actually, I beg too differ. Not so strange considering Hoke states:

"Cupellation is the process of melting an alloy containing lead with precious metals, in the presence of air. The lead is oxidized to litharge, which liquefies and dissolves the oxides of the base metals and carries them into a liquid layer than can be poured or bailed off, leaving behind a precious metal alloy of much higher value than that with which the cupellation started. This method of concentrating the valuable metals will be mentioned again in later chapters."



Harold_V said:


> You clearly have learned nothing from Hoke's book.


 Not entirely correct, I learned that cupellation, still in use today, has been around much longer than the chemical/acid method of refining PM's. Granted, the highest level of purity one might reach through cupellation is around 995%, and only then after multiple remelts, while levels of purity as high as 999.99% are possible using chemical/acid refining techniques, at this early stage of my education I would be perfectly content with levels of 995% purity. Truth be know, even purity levels lower than 995% would be acceptable, at this early stage of learning I just wanted to see some form of positive progress to reinforce what I had learned so far. Any gold recovered, regardless of the purity level, could always be reprocessed and refined to a higher level of purity at some future date as knowledge was gained.

Manhatten Gold & Silver writes:"Cupellation kick-started the Bronze Age and is still being used in refineries around the world. *The cupellation process is one of the best ways to extract these precious metals.* The cupel must be made of porous, calcified material so it can absorb lead without causing a reaction. The alloy is placed in the cupel and heated. Lead’s melting point is much lower than that of precious metals. This, coupled with the fact that precious metals do not readily oxidize, is what makes cupellation so effective. Hot air is blown across the cupel, which causes the lead to oxidize. The newly formed lead oxide, or litharge, is absorbed by the cupel, leaving only precious metals behind. "

Considering Hoke's comments on cupellation combined with Manhatten Gold & Silvers statements, logic dictated that cupellation provided an alternative to the chemical/acid refining technique and, at my current level of knowledge, was a good place to start.



Harold_V said:


> > I just want to learn how to recover and refining, the tools needed for this and the basic, underling principles surrounding these processes
> 
> 
> Contrary to your opinion, that's precisely what the readers have tried to give you. They know, as do I, what you must know in order to process precious metals to some degree of success. There are no shortcuts---you simply have to jump through the hoops until you understand the procedures. If you're not willing to take the time to achieve that end, you're not only wasting your time, you're wasting ours, and I don't take too kindly to that.


 Many of the users of this forum have been helpful but many more have been less than helpful and to some degree, critical, even somewhat arrogant. Those users seem to always respond with a standard, canned comment so often repeated on this forum along the lines of "Read Hoke's book and search the forum. There is an answer to every question somewhere within". You know what, that's a true statement and can be applied to every question one has in life. Somewhere out there an answer to every question is waiting to be found and given enough time, effort and persistence, they can be found. However, when someone takes the time to provide the answer a question raised rather than assume the higher ground with a canned response, it sure can be helpful and appreciated. In most cases (not all), it takes just as much time to answer a question as it does to type in the standard, canned response. Imagine that.




Harold_V said:


> Here's what you need to do. Start reading Hoke's book. Really read it. Don't thumb through it, picking and choosing what you think you need to know. Read it all, then read it again. Read it until it makes sense to you. If it never makes sense, refining is not for you. Find a different way to amuse yourself.


 Interesting choice of words. Perhaps to you, and some others, the pursuit of knowledge is a form of amusement, but that's not the way I am amused. Pursuit of knowledge is a serious, time consuming, 100% commitment if one expects to succeed. To date I have read Hoke's book 5 times and (surprise!) I even take notes. More and more, with every re-read, it makes more sense. Knowledge missed is knowledge gained. What was once "googly-gobble" is starting to make sense. 



Harold_V said:


> Don't continue this bombardment of apologies and explanations.


Sorry if my "apologizes and explanations" offend you but I am not so insecure in myself where I am above apologizing or admitting I am wrong when necessary. 



Harold_V said:


> I expect I'm old enough to be your grandfather,


 Again, an interesting choice of words. For the record, there is a good chance I might have a few years on you. Worst case, we are around the same age. 



Harold_V said:


> I've seen and heard pretty much every excuse that can be conjured in regards to why a person won't put aside the entitlement attitude and get on with the business of learning.


 With regards to refining and recovery of PM's, I imagine you have heard and seen it all, but you are dead wrong about having a "entitlement attitude". The only thing in life me or anyone else is entitled too is the right to die, period. Once born you are entitled to die. Whether you accept this is or not is your choice. I don't feel or believe that anyone owes me anything. What I know and what I have learned has been achieved through dedicated, hard work. No one has ever given me anything, nor do I expect to be given anything, I am willing to do what is required to achieve what I desire.



Harold_V said:


> Do not ask questions. You aren't prepared for the answers, as you clearly do not understand any of the basics.


 Done! never again will I post another question on this forum, that's not a problem. Truth be known the benefits from few questions which have been answered do not outweigh the grief associated with the aggravation and arrogant attitude that seems to follow by older, long standing members who refuse to help.



Harold_V said:


> No one is going to hold your hand long enough for you to learn to refine without learning the basics, because each of us knows well that such people never stop asking stupid questions. That's not what we're here for. We're here to help those who know how to, and are willing to help themselves.


 Really? From what I have read and seen that does not ring true. Yes, there are many who have a different attitude and choose to help others with there questions, but many, like yourself, seem more interested in finding fault, insulting and making threatening remarks as a way to bolstering self image. One other point, no question is a stupid question and if you believe otherwise then you need to get off your high horse and take a good look in the mirror.



Harold_V said:


> I am very short of patience with some folks.


 At last we agree on something!



Harold_V said:


> To put it bluntly, I do not suffer fools gladly. I, as well as all moderators on this board, have the power to ban you. Don't give us any reasons beyond those you've already given. Pay attention to what you've been told, study as if it means something to you, and report on your progress. Failing to to that, I see a banishment in your future. It is up to you to prove to us that you are not the fool I spoke of. Are you? Your response to this post will be all telling.


Ever noticed that so many times in life the one who sees the need to label others as a fool is more often than not the real fool? If you think me a fool, so be it, but I have no need or desire to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter. Remember what I said earlier, my self image is not that low and I could not care less what you think or believe you "know". Yes, I fully understand you have the power on banishment and I am under no misconception that you will hesitate to use that power. That's the easy way to deal with those who you don't see eye-to-eye with or those who refuse to see you in the same light you have cast yourself in. 

I fully expect to be banned for this post and I don't have a problem with that. I have experienced much in my life and have witnessed the "better than though" attitude" on more than one occasion but never have I found a forum where so many of the members have displayed such arrogance and rudeness as this forum. It's really such a shame, there is much knowledge and information that many of the forum members have to offer but instead have chosen to come across as arrogant, ruder, short tempered, miserable people in the power seat. Bet you didn't know that when I first joined this forum I had a moderator contact me and threaten me because they did not like my avatar of the snake wrapped around the constitution? Those, like yourself, who obviously have mastered the art of refining & recovery of PM's seem more interested in searching out and finding fault with others, and offering little, if any, help when questions are posed, and then only if your'e having a good day. You leave the impression that (as you stated earlier) all questions are stupid questions and beneath you. Why questions agitated you to such a degree is beyond me, perhaps it has to do with self image. What you think?

Either way, let the hammer fall and banish me to the world of never-never-land. I know that's much easier than having someone around who is not intimidated by your arrogance and has not problems with telling you what they, and so many others think but are scared to say.


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## jimdoc (Jan 11, 2016)

You still here? With your crappy attitude.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 11, 2016)

searcher1x said:


> I fully expect to be banned for this post and I don't have a problem with that. I have experienced much in my life and have witnessed the "better than though" attitude" on more than one occasion but never have I found a forum where so many of the members have displayed such arrogance and rudeness as this forum.


I would hate to disappoint you... you're banned! :mrgreen: 


searcher1x said:


> It's really such a shame, there is much knowledge and information that many of the forum members have to offer but instead have chosen to come across as arrogant, ruder, short tempered, miserable people in the power seat. Bet you didn't know that when I first joined this forum I had a moderator contact me and threaten me because they did not like my avatar of the snake wrapped around the constitution?


That would have been me. I did that to protect you, letting you stay on the forum. I saw it as a direct provocation when you changed into that avatar after you was forced into apologize your initial bad attitude. I saw that as trying to claim a right to express your opinion. You don't have to write something to provoke people, symbols works as well.
As I wrote then, you do have the right of expression as an US citizen, but that doesn't give you the right to express whatever you want here. You can go somewhere else to vent your frustration.

I also kept it quiet via PM to not expose you, yet again to allow you to stay on the forum.


searcher1x said:


> Those, like yourself, who obviously have mastered the art of refining & recovery of PM's seem more interested in searching out and finding fault with others, and offering little, if any, help when questions are posed, and then only if your'e having a good day. You leave the impression that (as you stated earlier) all questions are stupid questions and beneath you. Why questions agitated you to such a degree is beyond me, perhaps it has to do with self image. What you think?
> 
> Either way, let the hammer fall and banish me to the world of never-never-land. I know that's much easier than having someone around who is not intimidated by your arrogance and has not problems with telling you what they, and so many others think but are scared to say.


We are not scared of Harold and I'm pretty sure no one is scared of me either. 8) 

We are trying to keep a firm line of on topic forum, based on science and firm knowledge. The fact that this forum still exists and attracts both amateurs and professional people is a good sign that the sometime harsh rules is working well.

Well, as I have banned you it will give you time to think on what you sent me as last PM after I got you to change your avatar...


searcher1x said:


> Thanks for your patience, sometimes I say things I regret later (I guess we all do that), but after I have time to think things over if I am in error I'll be the first to stand up and admit it. I never thought much of someone who always put the blame on someone else for their screw-ups. We all screw up, nothing wrong with that as long as you're willing to admit it.


Göran


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