# Help with Silver cyrstals



## MR.ED (Aug 12, 2010)

Ive refined silver crystals before without a problem but now i had a interesting problem
1st I use the 1 liter silver solution, aprox 100 grams in nitric and distilled water
2nd i use the cathod that is in a graphite rectangle and the anode as a bent .925 fork that is welded on to a .925 bar.
I have used this 4 times before without a hitch, not the same solution just the process 
This last batch, my crystals where almost like mud and i did have alittle cystal growth but not much
I did notice the solution was hot to touch.
I use a 40 amp power cell on the solution but have used this same power cell on 4 or 5 batches of silver crystals without a hitch.
Im thinking that this batch of 1 liter solution that was used on my 2nd dore bar of .925 silver maybe there was some particles of some foriegn mater in the solution from my first .925 bar to make my cyrstals turn into mush (Powder).
Or maybe the power is to much and caused the solution to really heat up and cause the crystals to turn into mush
I figured that 12g/gallon of copper is aceptable which I figure to around 35 ounces of sterling per 1 liter batch to be ok. I only ran :roll: about 6 ounces of sterling into this 1 liter of solution. 
What caused my crystals to turn into powder and mush, so i have little crystals. and powder mixed in 
Is the batch of silver i produced still silver even though it is ugly?
Or do i need to run it through the nitric again and drop it with copper to get some good quality silver, Pleas help thanks
:roll:


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## machiavelli976 (Aug 12, 2010)

If you run the same kind of stuff , the problem should be the power supply. higher voltage means also higher current , means smaller crystals.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 12, 2010)

MR.ED said:


> Ive refined silver crystals before without a problem but now i had a interesting problem
> 1st I use the 1 liter silver solution, aprox 100 grams in nitric and distilled water
> 2nd i use the cathod that is in a graphite rectangle and the anode as a bent .925 fork that is welded on to a .925 bar.
> I have used this 4 times before without a hitch, not the same solution just the process
> ...



I just spent an hour writing up possible answers to your questions. Then, FF shut down and I lost everything. Sorry, but I'm not going to rewrite it.

I see 2 big problems.

(1) It doesn't sound like you are bagging the anodes or using a filter cloth between the anode and cathode. Therefore, any insoluble particles in the anode will fall off and contaminate the crystal. You must isolate the anode from the cathode with some sort of filter.

(2) Unless the cell is sitting on a hotplate, the only way the solution will get hot is if you are using too much amperage. Since I never allowed my cell solution to get hot (never above about 120F), I don't know exactly what problems would occur. However, I can't imagine that it would be good. In a professional setup, the amperage runs optimally at about 35 - 50 amps per sq.ft. of anode surface area. That is from .24 to .35 amps/sq.in. When calculating the anode surface area, only use that side of the anode that is facing the cathode. The cathode surface area should be at least twice the anode surface area. Also, a 30 gallon Thum cell is run at about 250 amps - that's only 2.2 amps/liter of solution. 

Think about this - even though professional refiners could run the current much higher and greatly increase their production, they don't do so. There has to be a good technical reason for this and one reason is probably crystal purity.

Run your one liter cell at the correct amperage. If you want more production, build a bigger cell.

Buy lazersteve's silver cell video. I haven't seen it but, knowing Steve, I would bet it's better than anything that anyone else has come up with, at least for a small hobbyist cell.


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## MR.ED (Aug 12, 2010)

Hi thanks for the info
I do have my anode baged to keep containiments inside the bag.
I do think that the power i am supplying is to high.
So since the cantainiments are inside the bag am i to assume the ugly cyrstals i do have are still high quality silver?
Or should i redesolve in Nitric and drop the silver via copper??


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## Oz (Aug 12, 2010)

MR.ED said:


> So since the cantainiments are inside the bag am i to assume the ugly cyrstals i do have are still high quality silver?



If it is just that the grain size is small but still bright and shinny then you could be ok depending on the purity you are after, but I would run it a second time in a clean solution.

You were using adjectives such as mud, mush, and ugly. That does not sound descriptive of a bright silvery product. If that is the case and you are using a proper anode bag then you have a contaminate that is co-depositing.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 12, 2010)

Have you inspected the bag for damage or holes? If you have excess nitric in the solution, it could attack certain types of bag material, especially when it is as hot as you suggested. After running large silver cells for 1000s of hours, the only times I have seen what you describe is when the bag was damaged.

Whatever the source, I would doubt very much if the mud mixed with the crystal is pure silver. Even if the mud is silver, it will be difficult to rinse all the copper solution out. I would remelt it and re-run it. A purity of 99.95% silver only contains 1 part per 2000 impurities - not much. A main reason for producing hard, heavy, medium-small crystals is that they are easily rinsed. Long, stringy, light crystals aren't as desirable.


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## MR.ED (Aug 12, 2010)

used Lazer steves video recipe and performed it as the video told me
100 grams pure silver in 117 ml nitric and 125ml distilled water.
Added the rest up to 1000ml with distilled water.
Used a 2 x 2 inch graphite with cathode wire in it.
used polypropylene bag for waste and added sterling spoons about 200 grams worth. Used a bent spoon at 90 degrees to hook up my anode which has good contact with other spoons that were pounded to a 1 x 1 circle. 

things i did wrong??
Used my 40 power supply that it was the only thing i had as power (So i guess this was too much power)?
My cathode size should have beed twice as big to get the twice the size of my anodes that were only 1 x 1. 
So what do you guys think i should redisolve in nitric and use copper??


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 12, 2010)

What amperage did Steve say to use?


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## rfd298 (Aug 12, 2010)

Mr. Ed

I too am learning this process and I am making minor errors here or there, but it sure is fun and the final product sure is beautiful. I was wondering why you are just throwing the spoons in there. I have been running Sterling through my cell, but I am melting everything and pouring them into a graphite mold.
1. I get a standardized sized anode.
2. All the oils and junk still on the silver gets incinerated.

You can always melt everything you have and start fresh.

Best of Luck.
Ken


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## lazersteve (Aug 12, 2010)

GSP,

The parameters for my cell called for an anode to cathode DC voltage optimum range 3 to 4.4 volts at 0.35 to 0.4 amps per square inch of anode area. Electrode spacing was stated as 3 to 4.5 inches

The one I built ran at a higher amperage, about 2.5 to 3 Amps for a 2" x 1" anode, and heated up after 45 minutes or so of use. I do not have a power supply that will dial down to 3 volts and grow decent crystals, so mine ran at 6 volts. I did not use any copper in my electrolyte for the video, but I did mention that copper is recommended. 

The crystals from my cell grew like stiff wire bristles. The crystals rinsed easily and melted quickly without any NOx fumes. 

Steve


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## MR.ED (Aug 12, 2010)

Well after reading these i am going to buy a variable power source that i can dial in the exact amp per the size of my anode.

I think the amp was so large that it basically disentigrated my crystals into silver powder after 2 hours of running at 40 amps. 

Again what should i do with this mud/little crystals??

disolve in nitric and bring back with copper??

Melt it??

Hey all thanks for the good education. I have 400 ounces of sterling. The good stuff i polish and keep it and the rest i want to get the .999 silver

Does anyone know if you have a 1 ounce .925 sterling spoon and you refine it using the proper methods, how much .999 you can get from the 1 ounce of .925???


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 12, 2010)

Steve,

Although slightly higher than what I suggested, all of the parameters that you recommend seem fine to me. If Mr. Ed would operate within these parameters, his cell should work fine. I think the amperage is what he needs to correct - 40 amps on a 1 liter cell is way, way, way too high.

An inexpensive way of providing the correct amps and volts for a hobbyist silver cell has always been a problem. There have been lots of suggestions, but nothing I've seen will work as well as a standard continuously adjustable plating rectifier, with one knob and an ammeter and voltmeter - I don't care much for the constant V or A type. Would it be possible to use a Variac on a battery charger? There seem to be a lot of 110 Variacs on Ebay at cheap prices. Or, what about one of those big 10" adjustable power resistors, with a slider, in conjunction with a car battery?


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 12, 2010)

MR.ED said:


> Well after reading these i am going to buy a variable power source that i can dial in the exact amp per the size of my anode.
> 
> I think the amp was so large that it basically disentigrated my crystals into silver powder after 2 hours of running at 40 amps.
> 
> ...



I would re-melt it all and run it back through the cell.

From a 1 oz .925 spoon, you would theoretically get .925 oz of pure silver. I say theoretically because a lot of silver marked 925 is actually lower than that.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 12, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> Steve,
> 
> Although slightly higher than what I suggested, all of the parameters that you recommend seem fine to me. If Mr. Ed would operate within these parameters, his cell should work fine. I think the amperage is what he needs to correct - 40 amps on a 1 liter cell is way, way, way too high.
> 
> An inexpensive way of providing the correct amps and volts for a hobbyist silver cell has always been a problem. There have been lots of suggestions, but nothing I've seen will work as well as a standard continuously adjustable plating rectifier, with one knob and an ammeter and voltmeter. Would it be possible to use a Variac on a battery charger? There seems to be a lot of 110 Variacs on Ebay at cheap prices. Or, what about one of those big 10" adjustable power resistors, with a slider, in conjunction with a car battery.



Ok I am going to stick my foot in my mouth and ask a dumb question. If all you are looking for is to adjust the voltage. Why can't you use a simple dimmer switch for a light. This is just a small cell I see no reason why a switch of this sort can't work. But I am not as familar with DC as I am AC so some one enlighten me please.

You know there is one in just about every car or truck on the head light system. Have you tought about using one of them?


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## Harold_V (Aug 13, 2010)

Here's what I discovered in the years of running my small silver cell. Results were TOTALLY predictable. 
My cell processed roughly 200 troy ounces per batch. I used 30 troy ounces of silver to make my electrolyte, and used NO copper. The cell operated with a volume of something like two gallons of solution. I do not recall the exact amount. It worked perfectly well without copper, but the absence of copper in the initial stages of parting grows a very hard deposit. That changes as the copper content rises, which would be very fast when parting sterling (which I do not recommend). 

My feed stock (my anodes) were silver that had been recovered with copper from silver nitrate solutions. I assumed that my anodes contained no more than 1% copper. On rare occasions, where I processed slightly more than 200 ounces, it was common for my cell to start growing very fine bits of silver, which was also contaminated from co-deposition of copper. That was evident if the resulting silver was used to make the next batch of electrolyte, which was my normal procedure. That method served to verify that I was producing fine silver. From this, you can safely assume that your silver is contaminated with copper. I would be VERY surprised to find I'm wrong. 

Assuming you do find your silver to be contaminated, it can be rerun without melting by simply placing the fine crystals in the anode basket, using an anode as a cover. I used a silver contact that was cast in a mold, leaving a long silver stem to which I could make my connection. The contact was roughly 1" in diameter, and was simply placed on top of the anode. 

I do NOT recommend you start your solutions with any copper content. All that does is shorten the useful life of your electrolyte and serves no real purpose aside from making it easier to harvest the crystals, and that only at first. That is a serious consideration in a large refinery, where cells must be kept active with a minimum of attention. It is not a requirement for the home refiner. Give that some thought. Also, keep your voltage lower---if you can't control your voltage, which, in turn, will control amperage, you are likely to turn out lousy quality. I would expect your silver cell, regardless of size, to operate at under 4 volts. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 13, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> Here's what I discovered in the years of running my small silver cell. Results were TOTALLY predictable.
> My cell processed roughly 200 troy ounces per batch. I used 30 troy ounces of silver to make my electrolyte, and used NO copper. The cell operated with a volume of something like two gallons of solution. I do not recall the exact amount. It worked perfectly well without copper, but the absence of copper in the initial stages of parting grows a very hard deposit. That changes as the copper content rises, which would be very fast when parting sterling (which I do not recommend).
> 
> My feed stock (my anodes) were silver that had been recovered with copper from silver nitrate solutions. I assumed that my anodes contained no more than 1% copper. On rare occasions, where I processed slightly more than 200 ounces, it was common for my cell to start growing very fine bits of silver, which was also contaminated from co-deposition of copper. That was evident if the resulting silver was used to make the next batch of electrolyte, which was my normal procedure. That method served to verify that I was producing fine silver. From this, you can safely assume that your silver is contaminated with copper. I would be VERY surprised to find I'm wrong.
> ...



Harold,

I'm sure you knew I was going to answer your post. You and I have gone round and round several times on this issue of copper or no copper. 

There are lots of ways to run silver cells and every one runs them a bit differently. Some ways are successful and some are not. For example, I worked for a guy that started his cells (12 of them, 30 gallons each) with nothing but distilled water and a precise calculated amount of nitric acid (preferably added in several intervals to prevent damage to the muslin bags). He used sterling for the anodes. As the crystals formed, they immediately re-dissolved. This continued until the free nitric was used up. At that point, the solution was built up to about 8-10 oz/gallon silver and a little less than 1 oz/gal copper and it started producing good harvestable crystal. I can see the merit in doing this. It greatly simplified the making up of the cell solution and it worked very well. You don't find this in the books.

When doing something like this, I always first check the professional literature that is available to see how others are doing it - and, why. Then, I start with what seems to be the best bet and may eventually make modifications to fit my particular needs. This method has always worked well for me. I have 3 good books that cover silver cells - Rose, Coxe and Butts, and the IPMI book in the yellow binder. I know you have at least 2 of these. They all list several solution formulas used by various large companies operating silver cells. In every case, copper is listed as one of the ingredients and it is said in one source that it's purpose is to produce crystal of a certain desirable density and size, mainly so it can be harvested, filtered, and rinsed with efficiency and ease. I have found this to be true. To me, these guys are the experts and I'll at least start out with their expertise every time (you did the same thing with Hoke). I see no real difference in the operation of a large professional cell or a small hobbyist cell, since the same results are desired.

I think you stated once that, until the copper builds up a bit, the silver sticks to the cathode and is hard to remove. Why go through all that? Why not start with about an oz/gal copper and avoid that? One ounce of copper, to start with, won't make that much difference in the life of the solution. I started with 4 oz/gal and I admit that that may excessive. If I ever do this again, I might start with 1 oz/gal and see how that goes. Whatever, I'll always start with some copper in the system. I am convinced, from experience, that some copper is desirable.

I have run tons (literally) of sterling through silver cells with great success. You do have to know what you're doing and keep good records of the weights of sterling added in order to properly maintain the solution or, in my case, I ran frequent quicky analyses of the Ag and Cu contents.

We agree on many things, but I feel that the one big difference between you and I is that you are more dogmatic than I am about how to do things. You seem to feel that about the only way to do things is the way you did things, whereas my attitude is that there are many ways to skin a cat. Maybe that's because I happened to spend much time in a myriad of refineries, each of which did almost everything at least a little differently, yet most all processes they used were successful. Also, I have consulted for refineries that already had equipment and were resolved to use what they had. So, I had to adjust the process to fit the equipment, rather than the other way around. In your case, I think you were more isolated and had to learn everything the hard way, mostly on your own, with some help from Hoke. Please don't take umbrage to this. It was just the way the dice were thrown. I have great respect for your knowledge. I have learned a lot from you and, were I to do karat golds again, I would surely incorporate some of your methods. Concerning silver cells, however, I think we should agree to disagree - both ways work.

Your friend,

Chris


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## Oz (Aug 13, 2010)

Well I am actually of the opinion that you are both right, it depends on what you are optimizing for. 

I have learned most of what I know about silver cells from the 2 of you. I have also run a few differently designed cells using both a starting electrolyte containing copper, as well as with zero copper. Both methods worked fine, each had its drawbacks. Not surprisingly my cell designs, starting electrolyte, and electrical parameters are a hybrid of what you gentlemen practiced as I tailored what you taught to my needs. 

If I start my cells without copper I get a fine grained rather adherent silver that comes off of the cathode as almost a sheet until the copper builds up in the solution. I imagine (do not know) that Harold just used his first scrapings of this fine grain to make up new electrolyte as it is hard to wash it clean of copper nitrate for high purity. If I am using a cell as a break-down cell I do not mind this as it will all be re-run anyhow. However if I am doing a final refining of my silver I do start with copper so all of my crystal is a nice grain (1 ounce Cu per gallon is fine). 

So my apologies if I butted in on your old debate gentlemen, but since I learned from both of you and have used both of your methods to my advantage I felt my comments would be well received.

Ps; I added a second pic that is just a 2 gram cluster so it is apparent just how reflective pure silver should be. It is also a pain to photograph for that same reason.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 13, 2010)

Oz,

Very nice crystal!!

Another difference was that Harold was running batches and I wanted to run continuously. I might run the same basic solution for months - with several bailouts and additions, of course.


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## HAuCl4 (Aug 13, 2010)

Great discussion guys!. I never stop learning here!.

Truly beautiful crystals Oz!. 8)


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## 4metals (Aug 13, 2010)

One of my clients runs a silver cell and was producing 2500 or so ounces of fine silver a week, mostly from sterling silver. Of the silver that fed the cell between 400 and 500 ounces of silver was from karat refining weekly and it was reduced from the chloride using corn syrup. These bars run over 98.5% silver and up to 1% gold. Very little copper. 

When we started and I explained to him that the cell would have to be re-started with fresh electrolyte when the copper level built up. We decided to make up the original cell with sterling silver scrap so there was some copper in there from the make up sterling and not add copper to start the cell. The needles started out long and spindly and needed more scraping because they grew so fast. As the copper level increased the needles were nice and firm and didn't grow as fast, so less scraping was needed. When the silver we produced was determined to be impure, the bath was cemented and we started over again. Made a lot of silver and did not have much trouble.

His market has changed so now he only runs one cell and his feed material is strictly the silver bars made from the converted chlorides. Because the copper added is negligible, these cells had to be made with a copper addition to start. They run for 6 months or better with no need for solution change because the copper we started with is essentially unchanged. The anode bags are changed every time they are holding 1 kilo of gold from the ingoing assays. 

So here is an example of a refiner who had it both ways, both worked, and he made a profit both by not adding copper and by adding copper.


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## Oz (Aug 14, 2010)

It is nice to see someone with great experience in silver (outside of Harold and GSP) speak to the value of both of their silver cell observations and preferred cell parameters. Of great advantage here that may have been lost to some is that since Harold did batches of silver instead of a continuous process, the crystal growth characteristics become the best “non complicated” indicators as to purity and proper electrical parameters. As a rule of thumb when your voltage or contaminates increase within your electrolyte you will get thready crystal growth of questionable purity. 

Although all of this thread's advice is pertinent , there should be some extra weight given to Harold's commentary over the rest of us because of how others will apply it. The reason being is that the vast majority of forum members will not even come close to a tenth of Harold's typical 200 ounce “batches”. So for the majority of our membership Harold's advice may be more important in regards to what they wish to accomplish. 

Much of what readers take from this thread and try to apply to their operations is dependent on how much silver they plan on refining in a week as to the proper cell design for them. Keep in mind that the smaller you make a cell the more sensitive it is as to something being wrong. A small change in impurities within your electrolyte (including copper) will greatly influence your final purity.


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## Harold_V (Aug 14, 2010)

Oz said:


> It is nice to see someone with great experience in silver (outside of Harold and GSP) speak to the value of both of their silver cell observations and preferred cell parameters. Of great advantage here that may have been lost to some is that since Harold did batches of silver instead of a continuous process, the crystal growth characteristics become the best “non complicated” indicators as to purity and proper electrical parameters. As a rule of thumb when your voltage or contaminates increase within your electrolyte you will get thready crystal growth of questionable purity.
> 
> Although all of this thread's advice is pertinent , there should be some extra weight given to Harold's commentary over the rest of us because of how others will apply it. The reason being is that the vast majority of forum members will not even come close to a tenth of Harold's typical 200 ounce “batches”. So for the majority of our membership Harold's advice may be more important in regards to what they wish to accomplish.
> 
> Much of what readers take from this thread and try to apply to their operations is dependent on how much silver they plan on refining in a week as to the proper cell design for them. Keep in mind that the smaller you make a cell the more sensitive it is as to something being wrong. A small change in impurities within your electrolyte (including copper) will greatly influence your final purity.


Unbelievable! Someone that understands what I said. 
You captured my thoughts perfectly, Oz. It would be very unusual for anyone on this forum to have the "problem" of running hundreds of ounces of silver on a constant basis. Even with the size cell I ran, I ran silver only once, maybe twice, yearly. I could do that because I held several thousand ounces in reserve. 

It made no sense to me to add copper, for the very amount of contamination that resulted by its addition resulted in lower production. The effective life of my batch solution was shortened, just as it is shortened in industry. There, they monitor and replace on a constant basis. I did not. For me, there was no advantage, and, indeed, a disadvantage. I ran both ways, so I knew which served my needs best. 

Your description of the silver that formed was spot on---a wonderful way to know when you had gone too far, and a perfect bail-out, using the contaminated crystal for the next electrolyte. 

Beyond the above comments, one of the things GSP has failed to address is the source of my silver. Mine was _*always*_ loaded with platinum and palladium, the result of processing a fair percentage of dental waste along with jewelry waste. It was frequently included with materials from my jewelry customers. When palladium content rose too high, it started reporting in the electrolyte, with the very real risk of co-depositing with the silver. 

My objective was the purest silver I could produce. I quickly came to terms with the fact that anything you place in the electrolyte will report in the silver---it's just a matter of how much. By limiting the amount of copper, I was pretty much assured of a complete batch (roughly 200 ounces) of pure crystal, at which time the electrolyte was changed, starting, again, copper free. The problems that accompany the copper-less solution are not excessive---I used a fiberglass scraper (which protected my stainless cell) which readily dislodged the silver. It often came off in thin sheets, but that was brief, for the moment copper content rose, it quickly started growing crystal. I am confident that it is for that reason copper has been used in industry---it provides for less time harvesting crystals, and, in fact, if conditions are proper, they often shed without assistance. That, of course, depends on the nature of the cell. 

The points I made in my original post are simply facts that I have concluded. They are not intended to be directives----but many can profit from my experiences, particularly those that likely will never process large volumes. 

I commented on not parting sterling. It's not that it doesn't work---it does. It's that the contamination level rises so rapidly that you are assured of less than pure silver. That would be especially true of those that operate on a shoestring--with nothing but bare essentials. Considering the huge number that "refine" without the use such necessary support material such as stannous chloride, I can only assume that the number that do so is large. I was never interested in that----nor was I ever content to achieve a level of mediocrity in any of the metals I processed routinely. I was well recognized for my quality--something that does not come by being slip-shod. 

Strive for perfection and you'll reap the due reward-----assuming that is your goal. It may not be. I've known more than a few people in my years that would be content to eat oats that have already been through the horse. Never appealed to me. 8) 

None of this is directed at anyone in particular---just my thoughts. 

Harold


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## HAuCl4 (Aug 14, 2010)

4metals said:


> One of my clients runs a silver cell and was producing 2500 or so ounces of fine silver a week, mostly from sterling silver. Of the silver that fed the cell between 400 and 500 ounces of silver was from karat refining weekly and it was reduced from the chloride using corn syrup. These bars run over 98.5% silver and up to 1% gold. Very little copper.
> 
> When we started and I explained to him that the cell would have to be re-started with fresh electrolyte when the copper level built up. We decided to make up the original cell with sterling silver scrap so there was some copper in there from the make up sterling and not add copper to start the cell. The needles started out long and spindly and needed more scraping because they grew so fast. As the copper level increased the needles were nice and firm and didn't grow as fast, so less scraping was needed. When the silver we produced was determined to be impure, the bath was cemented and we started over again. Made a lot of silver and did not have much trouble.
> 
> ...




Hi: 4metals. I know you like to measure everything: Did you measure the silver finess of the long and spindly crystals versus the later better looking crystals?.
Would it be accurate to say that making 9999 or even 99999 gold is a lot easier, even within the abilities of the dedicated amateur, than making 9999 silver and that 99999 silver would be a very technically involved problem to solve?.

Cheers and thanks for the proffessional and detailed responses from all.


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## 4metals (Aug 14, 2010)

The long and spindly crystals were 999 silver. They were checked by AA when the cell first started running, the subsequent silver was not checked for purity. That particular refiner is as tight and cheap as the crystals were long and spindly. He would have been fine never checking anything. The way they check the silver for purity is to visually look for discoloration on a white background, copper shows up as blue, albeit very pale blue, when the silver is impure. Mind you that's not the best way to check the silver, but it is the cheapest way. 

As for producing 4 or even 5 nines silver, electrolytic is not the way as it is too easy to have co-deposition as the electrolyte ages. A dedicated silver cell set up to re-refine high grade silver may get you there but I would be adding copper to that cell to start and that always has the potential to contaminate the product. Formate reduction will give you four nines if you're careful and if you process high grade silver to start, essentially re-refining it, you can get five nines. At the current price of silver I don't see much demand, in fact the standard has been three nines.


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## HAuCl4 (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks 4metals. Apparently things haven't changed much in 20 years regarding the 999 silver standard.

Curious on the formate reduction process. I'll look it up in the search, before I ask more questions. I remember formic something from a platinum catalyst consult job many years ago, but memory is not detailed, and definitely silver was not involved.


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## 4metals (Aug 14, 2010)

This was my first response to a post on this forum, it details the formic acid reduction method and my defense of the method, baptism by fire!

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1275&hilit=titration


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## lazersteve (Aug 14, 2010)

On the subject of stiff, spindly crystals:

Suppose you buy 100 grams of 9999 silver and make your electrolyte. Then cast a 1 ounce anode from 9999 silver and run it through a cell ( 6v, 2.5 A, 2 sq in anode) and get stiff, spindly crystals, are the crystals now necessarily 999 pure?

In other words what other factors, aside from final purity, can affect the physical form of the resulting crystals?

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 14, 2010)

> In other words what other factors, aside from final purity, can affect the physical form of the resulting crystals?



I would say solution composition, cathode current density, temperature, and, maybe, voltage.


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## HAuCl4 (Aug 14, 2010)

4metals said:


> This was my first response to a post on this forum, it details the formic acid reduction method and my defense of the method, baptism by fire!
> 
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1275&hilit=titration



Nice process. The baptism by fire yielded good info too!.Thanks.


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## lazersteve (Aug 14, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> I would say solution composition, cathode current density, temperature, and, maybe, voltage.



So it's safe to say that you *can not* judge crystal purity by the final form the crystals take? Of course, it seems to reason that the harder, more dense your crystals are, the higher the purity?

Steve


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## 4metals (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm no expert in the smaller cells used by most on this forum, (and because they are smaller, although they behave by the same chemical parameters, you can screw up faster) but in large production cells you get the harder denser crystals when there is copper present. Ironically copper is usually the culprit for impurity in silver. (and lead but that's another issue) Rinsing is also important because you can make pure crystal and not rinse off all of the electrolyte and contaminate the silver that way. 

I'm going out on a limb here because it's been a lifetime since I had P Chem, but I would think the copper in the electrolyte effects the way the silver matrix lays down to form the crystal while not entering into the matrix of the silver crystal until it reaches a critical concentration in the electrolyte. If that is the case the crystal formed when the copper is low can be very pure but from a mechanical aspect they are not desirable for harvesting purposes and because they can bridge the anode cathode gap faster and short out the cell.


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## lazersteve (Aug 14, 2010)

4metals said:


> ...Rinsing is also important because you can make pure crystal and not rinse off all of the electrolyte and contaminate the silver that way.



I always test my rinses with ammonium hydroxide to be certain it no longer contains copper. My spindly crystals melt fast and without any smoke or fumes.



4metals said:


> ...crystal formed when the copper is low can be very pure but from a mechanical aspect they are not desirable for harvesting purposes and because they can bridge the anode cathode gap faster and short out the cell.



This correlates exactly with what I experience in my smaller cell designs. I feel that I will be able to achieve better crystal structures ( harder, denser crystals) with more accurate voltage control with these smaller cell designs. I run anodes from silver that has already been processed via copper cementation or chloride conversion in my cells. My sterling is used for inquarting or run in a cell with a 6 molar or less copper nitrate electrolyte prior to running in the final silver cell for purity.

Steve


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## goldenchild (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm finally getting around to setting up my silver cell. I read this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that to get a decent crystal output you need 3.5-6V and about 10 amps. Im having trouble finding this. I find 10 amp outputs for 12v batteries or 6v outputs with unadjustable amperage. What are you guys using for a 1 liter setup? Is 12v with 10 amps unacceptable?

Thanks


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 24, 2010)

goldenchild said:


> I'm finally getting around to setting up my silver cell. I read this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that to get a decent crystal output you need 3.5-6V and about 10 amps. Im having trouble finding this. I find 10 amp outputs for 12v batteries or 6v outputs with unadjustable amperage. What are you guys using for a 1 liter setup? Is 12v with 10 amps unacceptable?
> 
> Thanks



To me, 10 amps is too much for a tiny 1 liter cell. I would keep it down to about 2-4 amps. Between 3-4.5 volts is about right.


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## qst42know (Aug 24, 2010)

Here is a fixer upper. Knob is broken and the fuse holder is missing. This is cheap if thats all thats wrong with it. There isn't much else to go wrong inside a large coil and a carbon brush wiper. I don't know the seller but a unit of this size would be nice for a small cell. If you need a bridge rectifier I have several.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PowerStat-3PN116B-Variac-Auto-Transformer-0-140V-power-/360293554072?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0


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## goldenchild (Aug 25, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> goldenchild said:
> 
> 
> > I'm finally getting around to setting up my silver cell. I read this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that to get a decent crystal output you need 3.5-6V and about 10 amps. Im having trouble finding this. I find 10 amp outputs for 12v batteries or 6v outputs with unadjustable amperage. What are you guys using for a 1 liter setup? Is 12v with 10 amps unacceptable?
> ...



Ok so would this work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Schumacher-2-4-6-Amp-6-12V-Car-Battery-Charger-SC-600A-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ390227674798QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

I'm thinking 4amps on 6 volt setting. If not what would you recommend using?



qst42know said:


> Here is a fixer upper. Knob is broken and the fuse holder is missing. This is cheap if thats all thats wrong with it. There isn't much else to go wrong inside a large coil and a carbon brush wiper. I don't know the seller but a unit of this size would be nice for a small cell. If you need a bridge rectifier I have several.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/PowerStat-3PN116B-Variac-Auto-Transformer-0-140V-power-/360293554072?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0



Thanks but I would have no clue how to get this set up. I'm sure I could figure it out but I probably wont win the auction anyway


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 25, 2010)

Electrical Question.

The EBay link given by qst42know is for a 10 amp, 140V Variac, which is a variable transformer. These are very handy and I always had a couple of them, exactly like the one pictured, in every lab I worked in. In general, you plug the 110 device you want to regulate into the Variac. I usually set the device I was regulating on max and made the adjustments with the Variac. It is great for tight control on such things as hot plates and stirring motors but there are certain types of motors that you can't do this with.

My question. Could you use a Variac to control the output of a battery charger? If so, that would seem to be the way to go. I would think you could use them, but this isn't my forte'. When new, Variacs are expensive (at least $300-$400), but there seem to be tons of used ones on EBay at very reasonable prices - I have seen them as low as $25. There are lots of different models, so you should know the amps and voltage before purchasing.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 25, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> Electrical Question.
> 
> The EBay link given by qst42know is for a 10 amp, 140V Variac, which is a variable transformer. These are very handy and I always had a couple of them, exactly like the one pictured, in every lab I worked in. In general, you plug the 110 device you want to regulate into the Variac. I usually set the devive I was regulating on max and made the adjustments with the Variac.It is great for tight control on such things as hot plates and stirring motors but there are certain types of motors that you can't do this with.
> 
> My question. Could you use a Variac to control the output of a battery charger? If so, that would seem to be the way to go. I would think you could use them, but this isn't my forte'. When new, Variacs are expensive (at least $300-$400), but there seem to be tons of used ones on EBay at very reasonable prices - I have seen them as low as $25. There are lots of different models, so you should know the amps and voltage before purchasing.



How would you plan on useing the variac to control the out put of the battery charger? Is the variac an A/C to D/C converter Looking at it I am going to assume not. Therfore if you use the variac to control the batttery charger when you regulate the voltage to the charger you might have a chance of damaging the charger. Remember if you lower the voltage in a situation like this your amperage/current will rise to meet the demand. This could damage the tranformer in the battery charger, thy are not generaly friendly to voltage fluxtuaions in changes of voltage. It will be better to regulate the load down stream of the battery charger that way the charger runs as desighned and you don't take a chance of damage to it.

Ya'll are really making it harder that is necessary to regulate the voltage I have posted on how to do this but seems it falls on def ears. Butcher if I'm correct has made a couple of great posts on this as well a few months ago.


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## goldenchild (Aug 25, 2010)

Barren,

Can you supply pictures and instructions on how to do this right here on this thread?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 25, 2010)

goldenchild said:


> Barren,
> 
> Can you supply pictures and instructions on how to do this right here on this thread?



I think I have 20 lbs of silver coming in to process in this load that will be in today or tomorrow. I will see if I can get it set up in the next week or two and post a video on it. Sooner if I can manage it and find the time.


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## lazersteve (Aug 25, 2010)

Most manual battery chargers contain a very basic ciruit consisting of a step down transformer and a rectifier. This arrangement is very easily controlled with a variac. For those of you using 'automatic' (ie the digital type) battery chargers this won't work.

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 25, 2010)

Very good, Steve. Thanks.


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## goldenchild (Aug 25, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> Most manual battery chargers contain a very basic ciruit consisting of a step down transformer and a rectifier. This arrangement is very easily controlled with a variac. For those of you using 'automatic' (ie the digital type) battery chargers this won't work.
> 
> Steve



I couldnt help myself so I just gave using the charger you use for the sulphuric cell a shot. I used it on 2amp setting (its a 12v charger though). I got some results but... the graphite cathode seems to stop working after it gets its primary sheet of silver plated onto it. For some reason crystals seem to only grow on the edges and corners of the cathode and eventually only on the corners. It took me a few hours to only produce a small amount of silver. This is also after scraping the cathode a few times. My connections are good and the electrolyte is crystal clear. What could be the cause of this super slow growth? Can an excess of nitric be the culprit or will this power setting just not work well?

BTW, the small amount of silver that was produces is beautiful.


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## lazersteve (Aug 26, 2010)

Sounds like you don't have enough current flowing or you have too wide of a gap between the electrodes.

Can you measure the amperage flowing through the cell when it is in operation?

Steve


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## goldenchild (Aug 26, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> Sounds like you don't have enough current flowing or you have too wide of a gap between the electrodes.
> 
> Can you measure the amperage flowing through the cell when it is in operation?
> 
> Steve




I have the same setup as on your dvd. I dont have a way to measure the current. I will get something to measure it soon.


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## metatp (Oct 3, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> Sounds like you don't have enough current flowing or you have too wide of a gap between the electrodes.
> 
> Can you measure the amperage flowing through the cell when it is in operation?
> 
> Steve


Steve,

If the gap is say twice as wide as in you DVD, how would one compensate to get good growth.

Thanks,
Tom


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## GrailSeeker (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a high amperage power supply I am working on at the moment, built from an old computer PSU. I will be using the 5v rail which has a rating of 11A. I will use it with my gold cell. If you aren't sure of what amps you exactly want you could make a current limiter at the end of the +5v. Also an ammeter could help too.




> I have the same setup as on your dvd. I dont have a way to measure the current. I will get something to measure it soon.



Get a multimeter along  the positive rail set to DC Amp reading. They are the cheapest way to do this, although the cheap ones withstand up to 10A so watch out the ratings.

As always, safety first, there are virtually tons of resources available online on how to convert a computer power supply, so if you know nothing about it, simply don't mess with them and tell someone else who knows instead.


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## Oz (Oct 6, 2010)

HTPatch,

I waited a couple of days before replying since you had asked Steve. I have not seen his video so I cannot directly address the gap issue as to what he is doing. However I can say that if you have a properly functioning cell and double your anode to cathode gap you will need to double your voltage. Remember also that any change to your electrolyte can and probably will change the electrical requirements in order for you to still get good compact crystal deposits at high purity. The larger gap will also change your electrical efficiency as to grams per kilowatt hour deposited. 

If you have any further questions on silver cells please PM me as I will not be posting on the forum, at least for a while.

Edited for clarity


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## metatp (Oct 6, 2010)

Well, I played around with my first silver cell (1 liter). It was fun and easier than I thought (other than the power source). I don't have a power supply yet, but tried many things that didn't work. I finally just tried to use some "D" sized batteries I had. I had 4 in series, and it work for a while. The voltage and amperage continued to drop until I stopped it at about 1.7V and 1.5A. maybe I will send a picture of one of the crystal branches. This is very cool and can't wait to get a proper (or at least adequate) power supply to try other things like distance between anode and cathode, size of anodes and different power setting.

Tom


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## lazersteve (Oct 6, 2010)

Tom,

Sorry for the delayed response. I typed a long reply the first day you posted the question and somehow it did not make it to the forum.

Oz has pretty much answered the question. My reply detailed the relationship between amps, volts, and the resistance of the electrolyte. It's odd that my reply did not show up on the forum. Perhaps I did not submit it or my browser messed up sorry.

Steve


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## metatp (Oct 6, 2010)

lazersteve said:


> Tom,
> 
> Sorry for the delayed response. I typed a long reply the first day you posted the question and somehow it did not make it to the forum.
> 
> ...


How much does the electrolyte resistance increase over time? I know this is a simple question with a more complicated answer, but I am just looking for a general answer. I assume the resistance does increase over time?

Tom


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## lazersteve (Oct 7, 2010)

I may be wrong, but logically I feel the electrolyte resistance would actually *decrease* over time due to evaporation. Evaporation would lead to a more concentrated electrolyte (more silver nitrate per mL) therefore the resistance would decrease due to the greater number of silver ions per mL of electrolyte.

Without evaporation, the silver ion concentration should remain the same and the resistance should also. Theoretically for every mole of silver ions that enters the electrolyte, a mole of silver ions should be deposited on the cathode as metallic silver.

Of course, the closer the stack of growing crystals gets to the anode the lower the resistance will be due to the shorter gap. When the growing crystals touch the anode the current (amps) is maximum and the cell is short circuited.

Steve


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## metatp (Oct 7, 2010)

Well, I think I had two things going slightly against me. 1) I was using batteries that were dying and 2) I had excess nitric in the solution so when I stop the cell, some of the silver dissolved. 

I think I know what my next setup will look like, but I will wait to get my power supply. D-sided batteries just don't last very long.

Thanks,
Tom


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