# where I am wrong??? help me



## ibrahim (Aug 14, 2011)

I take the gold ore its conform gold
(sample from gold ore ready to export tested and conform)
its crushed down then washed and then i use pan method to get rid of maximum selica and sand gold particles are so small that i have to use dropper to pick them up from pan 
after washing i think its around 60% or 70% gold and the 30% or 40% sand or others
i put it in a 30ml hcl and 10 ml nitric acid aqua regia solution it give the same red fumes.
after few hour i put it on a hot plate at low heat it starts bubbling and more gold particles started moving up and down in solution more gold disappers from sand and the aqua starts changing its colour to yellow and turns complete yellow no other shade just like i saw in other pic and youtube in pure gold case. after 2 to 3 days i got sodium nitrate and sodium meta bisulfate i put the 1ml AR on a watch glass and check it with ph paper its ph is higher so i put the urea mixed in a water with dropper in it. IT fizzes and after few dropes it stop fizzing i mixed it well and again checked the ph which is 1, so i put the sodium nitrate in it, again it gives the red fumes and after few minutes there is nothing appears in it so i put more SN it again gives the red fumes but nothing appears after rich quantity of SN red dust appears in the bottom but the quantity of SN is much higher for 1 ml solution i think!!!
then i put it in another beaker (without filtering) with fresh water and i start heating it on hot plate at medium heat some of red dust particles starts floting on the top after 1 hour i put few drops of sulphuric acid in it the red dust starts diappearing and the liquid changes into yellow green again very minor red particle are still visible in the bottom whats this where is the gold ?????
i tried another sample with smb but nothing fizzing and then the AR turns colourless, just like water . then i put the 1 ml sample in the watch glass and again used SN the same red fumes and the red dust appears again.
i got the i liter AR with around 80 gram pins from processor but with same problem, i even put few of this samples in the crusible for melting but no gold only the glass balls appears, i put the washed ore sample in the crusible 
that crusible is nearly half filled around three grams of gold and sand in it
i heated it well with torch after few minutes it start giving same redish orange glow just like molten gold but after cooling down there is nothing but the glass like thing i break that crusible into pieces to find gold, but i found very small particles in broken pieces and nothing else??whats wrong where is the gold nuget ,is it dispears in heating or evapurated in the air 
i even used simple hcl solution on processor pins i got gold foils i put these foils in the crusible to melt but it doesn't melt, so i asked one of the jeweler about it he says gold recovered from computers needs higher temprature to melt and it needs high temp furnace 
I am really puzzeld please help me in it i have arranged large quantity of scrape and ore for refining but stucked and i have invest lot of money in a last 5 mounths i got neary all equipments even i can buy more if required
so please help me i can even send you the ore of nice 10% and really good prices 
I GOT ALL THE PHOTOS OF THIS STEPS I AM TRYING TO POST THEM TOO 
IN FEW HOURS


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## martyn111 (Aug 14, 2011)

go to any post by palladium and download yourself a copy of Hokes book, read until you understand it.
I'm not sure where you got your processing ideas from but if you read this forum and hokes book you will discover the correct methods for processing just about anything containing gold.
If I am understanding the process you have outline correctly, you have neutralised your AR using urea and then produced more Nitric in your solution by the addition of sodium nitrate, why would you want to do that?


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## butcher (Aug 14, 2011)

Ibrahim, welcome to the forum,
Most of us came here without knowing how to do things, but you have found the place to learn,

pay close attention to chemical names especially the endings, Metabisulfite and metabisulfate are different chemicals that extra oxygen can determine if it will work or not.

Reading Hokes book, spending some time reading the forum, and your questions of where is my gold will be answered.

before investing in gold, chemicals and so on, you need to invest in yourself, getting an education on gold refining, and Hokes book will give that to you, I am sure you are like us here we can not afford to throw gold away, and if you do not get that education that is what you will be doing, harder times are coming spend this time getting ready, read HOKE's book.


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## butcher (Aug 14, 2011)

That was a long question, and I am having a hard time understanding your process.

If this is gold and not just pyrite:

(inquartering (3 parts silver melted with your gold, and stirred with carbon rod, pour into water to make small flakes) may be needed, but it sounds like you were able to dissolve your gold without it,if inquartering needed then use nitric acid and water to seperate gold and silver, gold will be brown powder or lump, solution contains silver and can be cemented with copper buss bar.

Dissolve in aqua regia, 1 part nitric acid and four parts hydrochloric acid, use only enough acid to dissolve the gold while heating, (it is wise to use GSP's instruction's to only use nitric acid needed, saving you time and trouble later).

after dissolved, we need to eliminate the nitric acid from solution, slow evaporation of liquid (do not boil), just clear fumes, a watch glass cover will condense fumes and drips of acid back into vessel should be clear not yellow (yellow liquid is the gold), watch this carefully, as it concentrates, it will begin to make small bubbles (this is the point most of the nitric gases NOx want to leave solution) lower heat so it will not foam over spilling your gold out, evaporate to a syrup but not to crystals, now add a little bit of HCl (hydrochloric acid, (you may see more red fumes), and evaporate again to syrup, then more HCL and evaporate to syrup again, If you have a bit of gold add it to last evaporation it would help to rid the nitric (read Harolds trick to eliminate nitric) (and if all of this gold does not dissolve save it to process later).

now add water about 5 times as much as you have gold chloride solution, let sit overnight if there is any silver it will show up as white powder in bottom of vessel the next morning.

Decant (suck out solution with hose or carefully pour off) solution from powder, do not disturb powders (these are silver chloride and need conversion before melting save them.

Filter your (yellow solution if goldwithout base metals)gold chloride solution (i use coffee filters).

Now add as much sodium metabisulf ITE (note spelling ITE), 
{You mention you have sodium metabisulf ATE this is not the same chemical and will not precipitate gold from solution}
Add as much in weight as you had in gold. Solution will turn brown then powders will precipitate brown (black if more dirty) gold in bottom, and liquid will go clear, 

Now use stannous chloride (tin dissolved in HCl) to test a drop of your solution, to see if you precipitated all of the gold, a drop of each on paper or cotton qtip, 
If gold will turn purple, and you need more SMB (sodium metabisulfite).

now these brown powders are washed (see Harolds posts in getting gold pure), and can be refined again for more purity or melted (if melting do not use much borax (just heat dish, sprinkle light coat of borax on dish to glaze it and keep gold from sticking to it, be careful not to blow away the fine gold powder with torch heat with torch back till they start to melt together then get hotter.

Remember if working with karat gold (inquarter gold with silver), or working with electronics separate mechanically and eliminate the base metals.

Any questions ask I will try to assist.
If I missed something another member will point it out.

If we wanted all the secrets to doing this and I told you I had the book you would want it, well it is free for you to read.
Look under Palladium’s signature line he provides free download, or look in the book section.

Please read HOKE's book and the forum.


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## Reno Chris (Aug 16, 2011)

Sorry, but reading Hoke to figure out how to treat various types of natural gold ores is a complete waste of time. 

With all due respect to Hoke - that book is designed for treatment of jeweler and dental scrap. It is easily adapted to similar things like electronics scrap, but it was never in any way intended as a guide to treatment of gold ores. Natural ores contain things like sulfides, arsenic, manganese oxides and other materials which one would never find in any scrap waste - jewelry, dental or electronic. These contaminants can totally change the expected reactions Hoke describes. To apply the methods from Hoke without knowing what is actually in the ore is asking for a major problem. The refining procedures discussed by Hoke work great on the things it was designed for, but may work very poorly or not at all on things it was not designed for, even if those things do contain gold. 

The result is things like this where there is basically no way of knowing what is going on or why the OP has problems. Just because an ore is confirmed to contain gold does not tell us anything about how much it contains or what the nature of the ore actually is. If its got 2 grams of gold per ton and 75 pounds of sulfides per ton, its confirmed to contain gold, but when you pan it, all that gold colored stuff you see is probably pyrite, arsenopyrite or chalcopyrite - or a combination of them. Sulfides behave vastly different from gold in their reactions with acids. Other contaminants can also cause weird reactions. Add HCl to an ore with abundant MnO2 and your going to get a garage full of deadly chlorine gas. -not something you would read about in Hoke.

So I would urge folks who read this to refrain from adding acids to ores with the expectation on capturing gold. Figure out what you have first, get good assays, then consult a reference on gold ore treatment methods - that would be the way to go.


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## Harold_V (Aug 16, 2011)

I agree 100% with your assessment, but this gentleman is doing two things, one of which is processing gold from escrap. While Hoke doesn't address that process directly, the fundamentals of refining are addressed, and are essential to anyone's understanding of proper procedures. He appears to have no concept of testing, or processes that have the potential to yield desirable results. I have advised him to read Hoke so he will become familiar with refining in general, which should not be overlooked by anyone that has an agenda of processing gold. On this forum, learning what Hoke teaches puts members on a common footing. It should not be considered the final chapter in the knowledge one must gain, but it is an excellent place for those to begin that have no clue. 

I also advised this individual, privately, that he should produce a document that proves the gold content of the ore, and the type of ore in question. He has also been advised that processing ores with acids is, for the most part, a losing proposition. I made it clear that without an assay, there will be no help forthcoming. I fully expect that he has but traces of gold in a sulfide ore, something that is very troublesome. 

Having said the above, he is convinced that he is likely on the right track because he is following, at least in his opinion, sound advice he gleaned from youtube. I have attempted to advise him in that regard, too, in that what one person achieves may not represent what others may achieve, due in part to the vast number of variables in ores. I failed to make mention of the hazards, however, and for that I thank you, Chris. 

I think this is a classic example of someone that is poorly informed and is hell bent on pursuing an idea, and is not likely to be easily swayed. We shall see. 

Harold


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## Reno Chris (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification. That makes good sense to me.

No question Hoke is a great source of very practical information on the fundamentals of refining and treating certain kinds of PM wastes. Although it was intended for Jewelry and dental scrap, much e-scrap waste is similar enough in nature that the same general methods apply. For processing e-scrap, I totally agree that Hoke is a great reference. I've said before and will say again I've been much impressed by what the members of this forum have done in processing e-waste and other PM materials that are or are similar to Jewelry and dental waste. Raw placer gold would fall into that category.

Please don't think I am putting down the great info in Hoke's book, I am only making the point that the recovery of gold is not a one method fits all proposition, and while the methods used on this forum work great for the materials for which they are intended, natural PM ores are highly variable and normally require other methods, ones well beyond the intended scope of the Hoke book. 

For those who do want to learn about different methods for the treatment of gold ores, there are some great references out there with information along those lines. 

Chris


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## nickvc (Aug 17, 2011)

> Please don't think I am putting down the great info in Hoke's book, I am only making the point that the recovery of gold is not a one method fits all proposition, and while the methods used on this forum work great for the materials for which they are intended, natural PM ores are highly variable and normally require other methods, ones well beyond the intended scope of the Hoke book.
> 
> For those who do want to learn about different methods for the treatment of gold ores, there are some great references out there with information along those lines.
> 
> Chris



Chris your preaching to the converted here. I think it's fair to say that Harold always suggests a good understanding of Hoke gives everyone on the forum a similar starting point in their quest to refine and or recover precious metals. If you stay on the forum for long I'm sure you will find similar threads to this popping up on a regular basis where a newbie is convinced he's found that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and a quick acid or mixed acids treatment will yield values. Harold I know, as do most experienced members, knows this is doomed to failure on all but the rarest of occasions because of the complex chemistry of most ores and without a good assay we are left guessing what exactly the ore comprises of and what should be avoided because of the dangers to health and life and what should be discarded because it simply will not achieve a result. 
Your experience and knowledge is a great addition to this forum and I hope your here for the long haul because many who discover ores almost or completely ignore our warning and advice if it doesn't fit in with what they want to hear and the more sound experienced members we have from a mining background may get them to see sense, but then again gold fever is incurable in some cases!


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## Harold_V (Aug 17, 2011)

Hey,Chris!

Imagine my surprise, when I tried an extraction with cyanide and achieved only about a 5% recovery, if that (I still have the small button, to this day). This was from an ore from Colorado, so you likely understand where I'm going. 

I hit the books hard, and slowly came to understand that what I had was a "mispickle" ore. On an outside chance that is what I faced, I ordered some bromine and set about adding it to the agitation tank. It was required that I maintain a pH of less then 10, but greater than 9, and I had to keep free cyanide within .01 and .02%. A real balancing act for a guy with no chemical training. 

I still have the assays. I achieved a recovery of over 99%, from an ore that assayed in excess of 300 ounces/ton in gold. Silver recovery was abysmal, but that didn't concern me as the amount of ore was small (4 5 gallon buckets) and the assay in silver was only about a sixth of that in gold. 

I fully understand your comments about the complexity of extracting from ores, and I've experienced only one. It defied virtually all of the rules. 

Harold


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## butcher (Aug 27, 2011)

Reno Chris, I like reading your posts on dealing with ore, and can see you are informed on the subject, new members work with many materials, not just ore, or electronic scrap, and Hoke will give them the fundementals needed to get started learning, no matter the material or process used, ibrahim's first question was values in aqua regia, and in my opinion reading Hokes will Help him get the understanding he needs in using this method better than any mining manual I have ever read.

In my opinion if you leach ore studying Hokes book is a great resource, she shows the fundamentals of testing solutions, what happens when several metals are in solutions just like leaching ore (the stock pot principles) apply, she gets people familiar with acids and how they react to metals and so on. And how to deal with many differing situations, it will give them the basic they need to get started, no matter if they are working with pure metals or working with metal salts or ores,


Without understanding these fundamental principles many new miners try leaching gold only to leach the iron from ore and toss the gold thinking they have it in the leach. Or do not even understand how these metals react to different chemicals, and many have no clue how to see where their gold is (or is not) in solutions.

Hoke’s book is not a book for Ore, but is for the metals we are after in ore, and if you do get these metals from ore you can better recover and refine them from understanding the principles she teaches.

One of my favorite books for ore in general is C.W. Ammen’s. Another book ibrahim should read if working ore.




Chris [/quote]

For those who do want to learn about different methods for the treatment of gold ores, there are some great references out there with information along those lines. 

Chris, I think you can help him with the extraction of values from ore, but it will also assist you working with him if he has some basic understanding of acids, testing and what to expect when working with these solutions and metals.




Reno Chris 
{“No question Hoke is a great source of very practical information on the fundamentals of refining and treating certain kinds of PM wastes. Although it was intended for Jewelry and dental scrap, much e-scrap waste is similar enough in nature that the same general methods apply. For processing e-scrap, I totally agree that Hoke is a great reference. I've said before and will say again I've been much impressed by what the members of this forum have done in processing e-waste and other PM materials that are or are similar to Jewelry and dental waste. Raw placer gold would fall into that category.

Please don't think I am putting down the great info in Hoke's book, I am only making the point that the recovery of gold is not a one method fits all proposition, and while the methods used on this forum work great for the materials for which they are intended, “natural PM ores are highly variable and normally require other methods, ones well beyond the intended scope of the Hoke book.}

In my opinion if ore was his only objective the Hoke would come after suggesting another book, but with recovery and refining someone starting out has to begin someplace to learn.

I cannot think of a better place to begin than from reading HOKE’s book.



Chris “Please don't think I am putting down the great info in Hoke's book, I am only making the point that the recovery of gold is not a one method fits all proposition, and while the methods used on this forum work great for the materials for which they are intended, natural PM ores are highly variable and normally require other methods, ones well beyond the intended scope of the Hoke book. “

Yes I do agree with this chris, but my answer was not geared to his recovery of ore, but his understanding of aqua regia or recovery and refining in general.

Chris, if he was just asking about ore I can refer him to seek your advice, but from the way I read his question I could not think of a better place for him to start learning than from HOKE’S BOOK.

All miners should read hokes book, they can learn what they are doing wrong.,(my opinion).


Ibrahim, maybe this will help also.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=11096&view=previous

Here is where I bought my Ammens book:
http://www.actionmining.com/


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## Richard36 (Aug 28, 2011)

I prefer C.W. Ammen over Hoke any day. Far more details in Ammens book.
Here's my copy.




For leaching ore's, this is the best book on the topic that I have found so far.




I hope that this helps.
For those that missed having me around, I'm back.

Sincerely, Rick."The Rock Man".


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## Palladium (Aug 28, 2011)

Welcome back Rick. 8)


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## Richard36 (Aug 28, 2011)

Palladium said:


> Welcome back Rick. 8)


 Thanks Palladium. 8)

I've been busy. 
Assays, rebuilding my rock-mill, and phone calls.
No complaints about any of that, short of the fact that I've only been out in the hills to go prospecting twice this summer.
Hopefully I get a few more trips in before the weather shuts me out of the woods.


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