# GF watchband tops



## brjook (Jul 13, 2011)

I have several OZ's of caps from gold filled watch bands and 70% nitric acid.How much do i need to use per OZ to get complete base metal removal.I tried reverse electrolisis and it didn't work to good so gonna try my nitric and don't want to waste it .Any info would be deeply appreciated .


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 13, 2011)

Since they are probably not all exactly alike, split them up into more than one batch then you are less likely to waste the acid.


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## Harold_V (Jul 14, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Since they are probably not all exactly alike, split them up into more than one batch then you are less likely to waste the acid.


My approach is different for such things. This applies to gold filled items, not plated items, which are generally much better processed by stripping. That doesn't work all that well for gold filled, unless you strip by cyanide, electrolytically, which is generally beyond the ability of the home shop refiner. 

Combine them, because spending time to sort makes no sense. Use less acid than is required, and allow them to do as they do. Those that dissolve easiest are quickly dissolved, leaving behind those that are slower. Heat the dilute nitric so it does its work fast, then decant the solution before adding more acid. The ultimate goal is to eliminate base metals, and to gather the values. Unless you are trying to make determinations of yields for particular types, there's no real benefit in keeping them separate. 

Harold


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## brjook (Jul 14, 2011)

I was just asking for a ballpark figure on the amount of nitric to use.I can split my caps up to one OZ batchs ,so what should be the amount of nitric for the first base metal removal?


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## glondor (Jul 14, 2011)

Check Goldsilverpro's recent posts. I believe he wrote quite a bit about how many ML's of dilute nitric acid are needed per gram of gold as well as silver and copper for dissolution. I can't remember the thread but I believe it was in the last week. I wish I could give you a ball park but I don't really work that way. I slowly add dilute 50/50 water/nitric until the reaction stops. Check the search function....much more on this there.


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## Harold_V (Jul 15, 2011)

brjook said:


> I was just asking for a ballpark figure on the amount of nitric to use.I can split my caps up to one OZ batchs ,so what should be the amount of nitric for the first base metal removal?


Because you have no idea of the alloy in question in most cases, that's not an answer that can be easily supplied. It also isn't a necessity. Start with a small amount of dilute nitric and heat. Take note of the amount of work done, then add more acid accordingly. It doesn't take long until you have a feel for how much is required. 

As Hoke states in her book, the novice tends to be short of patience and will over-use acids. By heating and being patient, you can wring out all of the acid's potential. 

I do not recommend processing without added heat. The difference between ambient temperatures and added heat is astounding. 

Harold


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## brjook (Jul 15, 2011)

Ok i had three batches about 1OZ per batch of Gold filled caps from watches .I added nitric and let it work.I then heated it till no more bubbles was seen.I decanted and added more nitric and split with equal amouts of water.Oh yea I used 100 ml of nitric 70% on each batch .When the bubbleing stopped i heated and it took a while and the batch seemed to go into a runaway reaction that boiled over in one batch. I took the remaining sediment from all three batches and again added nitric and water and boiled till no bubbles was seen.No runaway this time.I then mixed up my AR 50 ml of 70% nitric and 400 ml of hcl. I added it to the sediment and it started bubbleing real good for 45 minutes or so.I tried a test bach about 15ml of the solution and added urea to remove the excess nitric.Dilluted with 4 time water and added SMB. The solution was bluegreen not yellow like i expected.I added the SMB and the SMB turned akinda red when it was mixing .No darkening of the solution till i let it set for ten fifteen minutes.Upon checking my AR solution i still had a large amout of gold flakes floating around in it.Did it just dissolve the little bit of base metals left over and not the gold I have several grams of gold in solution and don't want to screw it up .What did i do wrong or what am i seeing ?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 15, 2011)

Possibly you should have put it thru a few water washes and then a couple of ammonia washes and you might have seen a color change indicating copper still in your mix.


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## Harold_V (Jul 16, 2011)

brjook said:


> Ok i had three batches about 1OZ per batch of Gold filled caps from watches .I added nitric and let it work.I then heated it till no more bubbles was seen.I decanted and added more nitric and split with equal amouts of water.Oh yea I used 100 ml of nitric 70% on each batch .When the bubbleing stopped i heated and it took a while and the batch seemed to go into a runaway reaction that boiled over in one batch. I took the remaining sediment from all three batches and again added nitric and water and boiled till no bubbles was seen.No runaway this time.


That was an indication that one of two things had occured. One was that you had eliminated all of the base metal. The other is that you eliminated all of the nitric. I choose to think that's what you did. 



> I then mixed up my AR 50 ml of 70% nitric and 400 ml of hcl. I added it to the sediment and it started bubbleing real good for 45 minutes or so.I tried a test bach about 15ml of the solution and added urea to remove the excess nitric.Dilluted with 4 time water and added SMB. The solution was bluegreen not yellow like i expected.


That's most likely because you hadn't eliminated all of the base metals. If you had any white gold caps included, pretty good chance they were on a nickel substrate. Nickel can be troublesome---it's the thing that causes the rapid overflow of a solution, which is a VERY common reaction when processing eye glass frames. All you can do is suffer through the experience until it is all dissolved. It happens only upon the solution reaching a critical temperature, at which time a beaker that is only 10% full can rapidly foam over. I used to control the reaction by adding water. Eventually the nickel is dissolved and the reaction is normal. 

Here's a hint that can be very helpful when you're processing gold filled objects. The gold can be attached to the base metal by means that leave a little to be desired, at least from the perspective of the refiner. After you have dissolved all of the base metal, something you ascertain by adding a small amount of fresh diluted nitric, and bringing the material to a boil. If there's any base metal left, you'll see the reaction. If there is not, the solution will only slightly discolor (blue/green), and there will be no brown fumes. At that time the material should be well rinsed with water, then gathered in a filter. When the solids have been extracted and dried, they should be fully incinerated, along with the filter. The resulting solids are then ground in a mortar with a pestle, and then screened. Any large items that won't go through the screen are suspect---they are either base metal that escaped dissolution, or they may be solid gold. If white in color, they may also be stainless. Testing is quite important if you hope to be successful. 

Once the items have been screened, they are given a wash in hot HCl, then rinsed until the rinse solution is clear. There is no need to filter, simply allow the solids to settle, so nothing but solution is poured off. 

When the solids yield clear wash water, they can then be dissolved with AR, or the solvent of your choice. The resulting solution will have a wonderful yellow color, and will filter without issues. 



> I added the SMB and the SMB turned akinda red when it was mixing .No darkening of the solution till i let it set for ten fifteen minutes.Upon checking my AR solution i still had a large amout of gold flakes floating around in it.Did it just dissolve the little bit of base metals left over and not the gold I have several grams of gold in solution and don't want to screw it up .What did i do wrong or what am i seeing ?


For starters, I see no mention of testing with stannous chloride. If you haven't, you're certainly not winning any points with me. Testing is important----VERY IMPORTANT, especially when you're trying to learn. 

Ok, right now I'm inclined to think that because you hadn't removed all of the base metal (the solution wouldn't have been blue/green if you had), you dissolved some of the values, but they were most likely partially, if not fully, cemented by the remaining base metals. It's very possible that not all of the liberated gold flake was dissolved, so that may account for the flakes you see in suspension. Test the solution to see if it shows positive for gold. If it does, add a small amount of copper and allow it all to cement. When the solution tests barren, you should remove the trace of copper that was added if you can, but if not, don't worry about it. Expect the cementation to be slow unless you add a lot of copper. 

When the solution tests barren, add water to dilute and allow the solids to settle. Siphon off the solution (test again to see if there's any values), and rinse well. Repeat until the solution is clear of color, then add some dilute nitric and heat. Your objective, right now, is to remove the traces of base metal you left behind. When that has been addressed, pick up on the process where you rinse well, then filter and incinerate. If you follow these instructions you will recover all of the values. If you try to re-invent the wheel and go off on a tangent, that may or may not be the case. 

Harold


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## brjook (Jul 16, 2011)

Thank you for your wisdom Harold and a great reply.Good to hear from the pro's every now and then.I have limited abilities here so i had to make due.I broke my batches down to about a halfa OZ and 50ml of nitric and water.Boiled it till no more reaction.I then Added the same amount of acid and water and boiled it till no more base metal was left and only gold.I then used HCL/CL and dissolved the gold.I dropped with SMB and it came out great .Upon decanting the water from my dropped gold and rinsed it with water it was already sticking together.I washed with HCL (heated) and again with waterand the gold was one big clump.So i guess i done it right this time.You guys are great and i glad i found this site .Without ya'll i never would have been able to do this from trying to find out what to do on the internet.Again thank all of you on this site for your info and guidance.


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## butcher (Jul 16, 2011)

I must have read Harold comment's on these principles till my eye's blur, but every time he writes them I read them twice because the principles are so DOG GONE important to success.

Old age is making it harder to see, and I am too stubborn to wear glasses, you guys making Harold write this so many times is hard on my eye’s .

Re read again what Harold wrote above, so he will not have to write it again tonight.
Help save eyesight .


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## butcher (Jul 17, 2011)

eeTHr Wrote

eeTHr
_________________
If you are new to the practice of precious metals recovery and refining, and you want to try it because you find it interesting, then you should read the Safety Section before attempting to perform any of the procedures or obtaining any of the chemicals involved.

Remember, neither the hospital nor the morgue are interesting.

Also read: Waste Treatment for the Small Refiner, by 4metals.

Be safe, and enjoy refining.


I like this!


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## brjook (Jul 19, 2011)

5.8 button from +800 grams of gold filled watchbands.I got almost a gram .8 from one single watch.Old stuff came from Puetro Rico.


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## Harold_V (Jul 20, 2011)

Congratulations on your success. However, the color and surface finish of the button indicates not great purity. Can you detail exactly what you did, and if you used a clean dish to melt the resulting gold?

Harold


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## brjook (Jul 20, 2011)

As i stated earlier how i got the gold powder.I have to say that the dish i used was not clean .It had leftovers from a few meltings.I had to almost break the crucible to get the button out .The top was smooth but had a slight discoloration on it .I tried to heat the borax off from it but it kept coming up so i let it solidify and this is what i got.


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## Harold_V (Jul 21, 2011)

I commented recently on the hygiene of handling refined gold. I can't think of an easier way to undo all the work of refining than to use dirty equipment--including the torch tip. If you hope to produce gold of high quality, you must maintain a sterile environment. 

Harold


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## gold4mike (Jul 21, 2011)

It's interesting that Harold specifically mentioned the torch tip.

My last melt was twice refined and the melt was looking great. There was no discoloration and nothing moving around in the flux. As I was about to turn off the torch a black speck flew off the end of the torch and landed right on top of my button. 

I have left it stuck there as a reminder to myself to make sure the torch is clean EVERY time I do a melt from now on.

I had used that torch to heat the top of some filters I was incinerating a few days earlier and, apparently, had some of that material stuck on the end of the torch.

I ALWAYS make sure my glassware is clean but never gave the torch a second thought.


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## Harold_V (Jul 22, 2011)

I kept two tips for the Hoke torch I used to use. One was used exclusively for melting pure gold, to ensure that nothing contaminated the heats. When it became slightly oxidized, it was cleaned with fine polishing cloth, then blown out with clean air. Needless to say, the waste that resulted from the sanding operation was sent to my waste material. There's always microscopic beads of gold on the tip after melting, if you look closely.

Under no circumstance should a dirty torch be used when melting your gold, unless you are not concerned about purity. 

Harold


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## brjook (Jul 22, 2011)

I am a hobbiest and enjoy what i am doing.I have a shallow pocket and make due with what i got . I have several crucible coming and will remelt the button and post another pic .Maybe that one wil get a better review.Not that i am complaining about the one i already got .Point well taken. I am getting to the point where i need to slow down and do it like ya'll say do it .I just wanted to see how it all worked and get a feel for it and i have seem to have done that .So now as stated , put it in low gear and take my time .Again thank all of you for your replys and keep,em coming.Never to old to learn .


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## butcher (Jul 22, 2011)

save the button, remelting now is not the answer, you will get more materials to process and get much better at this game, later you may want to add this button to another lot and refine it.

great job on this button, now refine your technique, your getting the hang of it and now your Hooked like a gold addict.


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## Harold_V (Jul 23, 2011)

Please follow the advice given by butcher. There is nothing to be gained by re-melting a contaminated button. It requires reprocessing in order to accomplish a meaningful improvement. Just don't get discouraged. My comments are for your own good--not to make you look any less accomplished. 

I wish I had kept my first button. Not a bit better than yours, but, man, was I proud!

Harold


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## nickvc (Jul 23, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Please follow the advice given by butcher. There is nothing to be gained by re-melting a contaminated button. It requires reprocessing in order to accomplish a meaningful improvement. Just don't get discouraged. My comments are for your own good--not to make you look any less accomplished.
> 
> I wish I had kept my first button. Not a bit better than yours, but, man, was I proud!
> 
> Harold




Harold I kept mine and it's not too clever and needs re refining, its never going to happen, but yep I was a proud father too! 8)


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## pricebreaker36 (Aug 14, 2011)

H!I''m new to gold refining and to this gold forum and i just purchased a pound of gold filled of watch cases and i tried to melt down the half pound of iy into small pieces and soaked it into sulfuric acid (battery fluid acid )and sodium nitrate,and after one day of soaking it,the watch cases dissolves but it turns into like black mud and black sand,i did not see the gold at the bottom.can anyone tells me what was wrong,i know there's a lot of answered topic here,but i just want to get answer what is best for my problem right now and i'm short of money and knowledge,. can anyone help me please?any help would be appreciated.
1)what can i do next?
2)how can i get the gold from it?
3)do i need to use smb to precipitate the gold? or do i need copper since i use sulfuric acid?
4)where can i find a cheaper nitric acid?i've seen one here $100.00 for 2.5 liter,is there any cheaper than that?thanks again in advance


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## jimdoc (Aug 14, 2011)

This is basically a double post, there is no need for that as everyone will see your other post.

Jim


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## pricebreaker36 (Aug 14, 2011)

i post this again because the first one was all caps,and i want to make sure that i'm on the right topic,again thanks jim


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## sera57 (Nov 6, 2011)

I'm refining gold from scrap the following way, and I got about 98-99% clear gold.
Melt the junk, and pour it into cold water to make small casting balls. The iron, zink, and most of the other metal will comes to the top. The gold and copper will be on the bottom.
pour off the water, and wash the settlement again. Mix 1/2LB of sodium nitrate with 16 oz of distilled water. keep it safe this liquid is not a danger. Using 98% sulfuric acid is.
1600 ml. baker pour 2 oz. water on you junk containing the gold, then slowly 2 oz of sulfuric acid
watch the heat if your hand can't stand the heat stop adding the sulfuric acid.
as soon the brown smoke stops start heating it. since the brown smoke coming. When it stops
let it cool a little and add hot water to it, let it settle and poor of the water keep doing it since 
you get the clear water, The brown or black settlement is 99.0% gold ready to be melted.
I usually need to add the nitrate and sulfuric acid mixture 2 times and washed. with 25-30 gram
batch.


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## Harold_V (Nov 7, 2011)

It should be noted that the process suggested by sera57 will not reliably produce fine gold. Use this process only if you aren't concerned with producing gold that does not meet industry purity standards. 

Harold


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