# Does copper only knock out gold or does it also knock out silver?



## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

Hello! I prepared 16 liters of aqua regia and dissolved a lot of gold-plated parts in it. My question is, do I want to cement it with copper and does copper also cement silver? I want to use copper because here in Hungary the ingredients are expensive, for example: 1 kg of urea is $20.75. Would you write about this process? Thanks!


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 11, 2022)

ólom said:


> Hello! I prepared 16 liters of aqua regia and dissolved a lot of gold-plated parts in it. My question is, do I want to cement it with copper and does copper also cement silver? I want to use copper because here in Hungary the ingredients are expensive, for example: 1 kg of urea is $20.75. Would you write about this process? Thanks!


How did you prepare the AR?
What did you dissolve?

Copper will cement out everything below it in the electrochemical table.
Which means Gold, Silver, PGMs and Mercury.
Just check the electrochemical table.


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## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> How did you prepare the AR?
> What did you dissolve?
> 
> Copper will cement out everything below it in the electrochemical table.
> ...


for example: transistor, I put the gold-plated pins from the connectors, a whole connector that I couldn't take apart, and other things, it was quite mixed, there was a lot of things in it. I made the royal water in a ratio of one to three. Thank you for your answer!


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## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

How do I remove the silver from it?


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 11, 2022)

ólom said:


> How do I remove the silver from it?


DO NOT premix your AR, add HCl to barely cover the things you want to dissolve, then add Nitric by the "drop" little by little until it is dissolved.
AR dissolves very little Silver, was there anything left, after the AR stopped reacting?
Edit to add:
Silver will be left as a metal with a crust on it.
Have you done a Stannous test on it?
We really don't like dissolving batches of everything, it makes it almost impossible to help and solve issues.


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## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

Nothing left after the AR stopped. I didn't do a Stannous test, I don't know what it is.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 11, 2022)

Search the forum for Stannous test.
How can you know what to do if you don't know what you have in solution?
You definitely don't have much Silver, if there was it would be left on the bottom.
Testing is simple, take a ml or so and add a few grains of Salt, if it creates a white fluffy precipitate it has Silver in it.
But there shold not be, since there is HCl in the AR.


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## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

Sorry, I'm talking about two separate things. I cemented one of my solutions with copper, I got quite a lot of brown powder (I'm drying it now), I think there is iron hydroxide on top, but then according to them there is also silver in it. I put powdered integrated circuits in my other solution and I want to cement this solution with copper, but silver is not needed. This is also 16 liters.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 11, 2022)

ólom said:


> Sorry, I'm talking about two separate things. I cemented one of my solutions with copper, I got quite a lot of brown powder (I'm drying it now), I think there is iron hydroxide on top, but then according to them there is also silver in it. I put powdered integrated circuits in my other solution and I want to cement this solution with copper, but silver is not needed. This is also 16 liters.


That do not matter, Silver will not dissolve in AR (a minute amount can to some degree)
And there will not be any Iron dropping from cementing with Copper.
No Hydroxides will form in AR unless you start neutralizing it.

You will need to stop this experiment now, you obviously do not have the knowledge to do this hobby safely.
Set everything aside and start studying.
First read the book from C.M. Hoke. there is a link in Frugalrefiners posts.
Then start searching the forum.


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## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

someone is talking about iron hydroxide here, there was just such an oily film on top of my royal jelly and it was the same color.https://goldrefiningforum-com.translate.goog/threads/copper-cementation-process-and-results.29779/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=hu&_x_tr_hl=hu


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 11, 2022)

ólom said:


> someone is talking about iron hydroxide here, there was just such an oily film on top of my royal jelly and it was the same color.https://goldrefiningforum-com.translate.goog/threads/copper-cementation-process-and-results.29779/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=hu&_x_tr_hl=hu


That is in Hungarian, so I can't comment it.
But never the less, Hydroxides form when the pH allows it and the conditions are right.

It will as far as I know not form in AR, is that what you mean with Royal Jelly???
Please use proper terms for chemical compounds.

My advise still stands. put your solutions aside in good containers and start studying.
Search especially dealing with waste.


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## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

I wanted to neutralize the nitric acid with sodium carbonate, but it didn't work out, so I cemented it with copper, and I think that's why there was iron hydroxide on top. What do you think? Why does silver not dissolve in AR?


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 11, 2022)

ólom said:


> I wanted to neutralize the nitric acid with sodium carbonate, but it didn't work out, so I cemented it with copper, and I think that's why there was iron hydroxide on top. What do you think? Why does silver not dissolve in AR?


You should start studying now mate.

Silver forms Silver Chloride in when in contact with any Chloride.
It can not be dissolved in any acid and when the layer get thick enough the Nitric can’t get through.

We never neutralize our acids.
If we use too much Nitric we may destroy it with Sulfamic acid.

In some cases we raise the pH to perform some actions that need a specific pH to be effective.
Thats it.

Start studying now so you don’t hurt yourself or others around you.

Edit spelling.


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## ólom (Nov 11, 2022)

Ok and thanks for your help! All the best to you!


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## Rreyes097 (Nov 11, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You should start studying now mate.
> 
> Silver firms Silver Chloride in when in contact with any Chloride.
> It can not be dissolved in any acid and when the layer get thick enough the Nitric can’t get through.
> ...


I totally agree. You know even less then I did when I started. Please take his advice and rest everything about this subject.


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## orvi (Nov 11, 2022)

Copper will cement anything more noble - gold, silver, PGMs, mercury etc... Putting the copper into the PM loaded AR will cause all precious metals to drop on it. After the nitric acid will deplete from the solution of course. 

It is very advantageous to also know the theory behind. Because if you encounter any problems along the way, you will be more able to solve them by yourself.

And I does not believe kilo of urea cost 20 USD in Hungary. Fertilizer grade could be purchased for few euros for 5kg bag in gardening stores. By the way, don´t use urea. Use sulfamic acid instead. Or if you cannot source any sulfamic, stick with copper precipitation.

Learn how to do things how they should be done. There are hardly any shortcuts in this business. And also, never pre-mix AR. Dose nitric acid incrementaly. You save precious nitric by doing so, and also it is much easier to process afterwards regarding excess nitric removal using sulfamic. Adding bases does nothing to the nitric or nitric residues.


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## Alondro (Nov 11, 2022)

orvi said:


> Copper will cement anything more noble - gold, silver, PGMs, mercury etc... Putting the copper into the PM loaded AR will cause all precious metals to drop on it. After the nitric acid will deplete from the solution of course.
> 
> It is very advantageous to also know the theory behind. Because if you encounter any problems along the way, you will be more able to solve them by yourself.
> 
> ...


Silver contamination is hardly a risk when using the HCl-bleach method to dissolve gold plated parts. Only some silver chloride will be produced if any silver is present, and only a fraction of a percent of it can dissolve in aqueous solutions.

Concentrated bleach is dirt-cheap too. A few bucks a gallon, enough to dissolve POUNDS of gold, since very little is added to the HCl at a time.


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## stoneware (Nov 11, 2022)

ólom said:


> How do I remove the silver from it?


Read Hoke's Refining Precious Metals Wastes, it's all there and the book is a free download on the GRF site.

A lot of effort and time when into digitizing the Hoke's book, it's now available in several different formats.

Harold_V would have insisted that you read Hoke's before asking questions taking up members valuable time.

It now appears most of the newest members want to be spoon fed.

This is the chart Yggdrasil is referring too. as he mentioned copper will cement or react with metals below itself while those above will cement copper.

Take a look at iron, yes iron will cement all those metals below itself in the electromotive series.


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## ólom (Nov 12, 2022)

Thank you very much for your help! I'm going to check out that book!


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## stoneware (Nov 13, 2022)

ólom said:


> Thank you very much for your help! I'm going to check out that book!
> 
> View attachment 53123


frugalrefiner has links to Hokes Refining Precious Metals Wastes, in his tagline.


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## ólom (Nov 14, 2022)

stoneware said:


> frugalrefiner has links to Hokes Refining Precious Metals Wastes, in his tagline.


Thank you very much!


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## ólom (Nov 14, 2022)

Thank you very much!


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## ólom (Nov 14, 2022)

I wanted to neutralize the nitric acid in 16 liters of aqua regia with sodium carbonate, and then I tried to precipitate the gold with ascorbic acid, it didn't work, so I cemented it with copper and a lot precipitated out, 540 grams, but I'm still drying it, and my question is what can be in it? I think this is a lot, there can't be so much gold in it! There is a thin layer of rust on top that the magnet will hold, what can be done to make it disappear? Thanks!


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 14, 2022)

ólom said:


> I wanted to neutralize the nitric acid in 16 liters of aqua regia with sodium carbonate, and then I tried to precipitate the gold with ascorbic acid, it didn't work, so I cemented it with copper and a lot precipitated out, 540 grams, but I'm still drying it, and my question is what can be in it? I think this is a lot, there can't be so much gold in it! There is a thin layer of rust on top that the magnet will hold, what can be done to make it disappear? Thanks!


Why in the world did you put in anything to neutralize your AR???
We never neutralize the AR we deNOx it so the nitrates and excess Nitric is converted into Sulfuric(by Sufamic acid), driven off by evaporation or used up by more Gold or some Copper.
Who told you to do it that way??
Your residue is a mix of Sodium Carbonate, Iron Hydroxides and who knows what. With an tiny amount of Gold in there.
In all practical terms you have taken a manageable and bad situation and turned it into a worse situation and used money to do so.

Put your stuff away in a safe place and then Read Hokes and study before you injure yourself and others!!!
After you have read Hoke you should slowly realize the madness you have been doing.
Then come back and ask questions.


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## ólom (Nov 14, 2022)

If I read the book, will I know what I messed up and how to fix it? The problem is that it is in English, I have already downloaded it and I am working on how to translate it into Hungarian.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 14, 2022)

ólom said:


> If I read the book, will I know what I messed up and how to fix it? The problem is that it is in English, I have already downloaded it and I am working on how to translate it into Hungarian.


You will not directly discover those things but you will be given information on how it should have been done.
For instance she will tell you how to evaporate the Nitric and why.


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## ólom (Nov 14, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Why in the world did you put in anything to neutralize your AR???
> We never neutralize the AR we deNOx it so the nitrates and excess Nitric is converted into Sulfuric(by Sufamic acid), driven off by evaporation or used up by more Gold or some Copper.
> Who told you to do it that way??
> Your residue is a mix of Sodium Carbonate, Iron Hydroxides and who knows what. With an tiny amount of Gold in there.
> ...


I didn't want to neutralize the ar, only the nitric acid in it. no one told me to do it this way.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 15, 2022)

ólom said:


> I didn't want to neutralize the ar, only the nitric acid in it. no one told me to do it this way.


That is deNOxing and is a process to decompose the Nitric\Nitrates and it is *NOT* called neutralizing.
What you have been doing is correctly described neutralizing, but the whole acid\pH. 

This is the reason we ask you to study, so you understand what is going on and why you do it.
The worst case is that you do something so wrong that you injure yourself or the neighbors.


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## ólom (Nov 15, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> That is deNOxing and is a process to decompose the Nitric\Nitrates and it is *NOT* called neutralizing.
> What you have been doing is correctly described neutralizing, but the whole acid\pH.
> 
> This is the reason we ask you to study, so you understand what is going on and why you do it.
> The worst case is that you do something so wrong that you injure yourself or the neighbors.


ok! Thanks!


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## Martijn (Nov 21, 2022)

ólom said:


> Thank you very much for your help! I'm going to check out that book!
> 
> View attachment 53123


Before you go and try mixing barrels full of chemicals and throwing in whatever you believe to have succes in there without any knowledge of how to get your pm's out, or how to test if there is something in solution:

Stop. Study dealing with waste. Follow the advice given.

Those 32 liters of acid are probably still very usable. May not see it as waste and get some of value out of that wasted money.

You said: 'no one told me.....'
Who told you to go and dive in head first recovering pm's from scrap with a refining process? Without any experience...

Let me make one thing very clear: 


We are responsible for our own actions. 


The disclaimer on most youtube video's are very poor. 
E.g: If you stick your fingers in a working blender because you saw a cool film with diamonds on the bottom, you still put your own fingers in. No one else did. 

Or: when you get sued for the health and environmental damage you've caused in the neighborhood, the judge won't consider which video you watched. And how we the disclaimer is written. Its just YOU.

Have fun. Go study. Ask first before you attempt anything. 

And your next chemistry experiment should be on test tube scale, not barrels full of mistakes and waste to correct. 

One more: why worry about 20 euro for urine when you've probably wasted more then 100 euro on acids? Adding the fact that urea is not neccessary in refining. Knowledge is.


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## ólom (Nov 21, 2022)

Hello! I burned 60 kg of ic, then ground it and washed out the ash, and I want to ask how to extract the silver and gold from it? (I know there's gold in the ashes, but I don't want to deal with that!) I don't want to implement the question yet because I haven't read the book yet, but I've already translated it into my own language. I'm just very curious and enthusiastic. I burned these ICs back in the summer.


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## ólom (Nov 21, 2022)




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## ólom (Nov 21, 2022)

there were such integrated circuits, but of several types.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 21, 2022)

ólom said:


> Hello! I burned 60 kg of ic, then ground it and washed out the ash, and I want to ask how to extract the silver and gold from it? (I know there's gold in the ashes, but I don't want to deal with that!) I don't want to implement the question yet because I haven't read the book yet, but I've already translated it into my own language. I'm just very curious and enthusiastic. I burned these ICs back in the summer.


There is nothing regarding e-waste in Hokes book. Electronics was for all prectical purposes non existent in the time of the book.
Concentrate your ashes as best you can by gravity and magnetic separation.
Then incinerate again to make sure ALL carbon is removed.

Save the concentrates until you are ready to process them. (Finished studying)

I’m not sure there is much Silver in ICs.


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## ólom (Nov 21, 2022)

Thanks for the answer! There's a lot of silver in it, check out this video!


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## ólom (Nov 21, 2022)




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## ólom (Nov 21, 2022)

why must all carbon be edge removed?


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 21, 2022)

ólom said:


>



I do not consider Trinity as a trusted source of anything refining related.
He makes his living making videos for clicks not refining.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 21, 2022)

ólom said:


> why must all carbon be edge removed?


All carbon must be removed prior to leaching because carbon soaks up Gold.
That is why Active Carbon is used to scavenge Gold from leaching of ores.


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## flamington12 (Nov 21, 2022)

Extremely helpful thread for those just learning the game. Read through here before you make some GIANT mistakes! Read before you DO!


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## ólom (Nov 21, 2022)

flamington12 said:


> Extremely helpful thread for those just learning the game. Read through here before you make some GIANT mistakes! Read before you DO!


I don't want to do anything right now. I'll read the book later, but I've already written this.


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## ólom (Nov 23, 2022)

I'm reading the book and I want to ask about the released gases! Hoke writes that we should use a fan or hood if we work in a workshop, but regardless, it gets into the air and poisons others. What can be done with it?


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## Martijn (Nov 23, 2022)

Olom, great attitude! 
When this book was written, the environment was not a big issue yet. 
By now, most of humanity has learned not to poop in your own water well. Some parts of the world are still catching up. 

Most sustances are only harmfull at certain concentrations, others can accumulate over time in your body or in nature and cause serious damage that way. 

It usually comes down to emission limits. So much micro gram of a substance per cubic meter of expelled air. Or total amount per hour. 

No economic way to measure that for the small guy. 

Prevention is the biggest factor. No need to scrub fumes if they are not created
(in large quantities). So either slow reactions in semi closed vessels with low emissions or big and fast reactions which will require huge scrubbing systems. 

So don't create a lot of fumes, and if you do, don't let them escape to open air without scrubbing them first. Have the fume hood there to get the traces of gasses and unintentional releases or accidents vented away from you. 

But very good to hear you are aware of this and you want to limit the gases expelled.


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## ólom (Nov 23, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Olom, great attitude!
> When this book was written, the environment was not a big issue yet.
> By now, most of humanity has learned not to poop in your own water well. Some parts of the world are still catching up.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer!


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 23, 2022)

ólom said:


> I'm reading the book and I want to ask about the released gases! Hoke writes that we should use a fan or hood if we work in a workshop, but regardless, it gets into the air and poisons others. What can be done with it?


We do not follow her advice regarding safety


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 23, 2022)

ólom said:


> I'm reading the book and I want to ask about the released gases! Hoke writes that we should use a fan or hood if we work in a workshop, but regardless, it gets into the air and poisons others. What can be done with it?


I don't know what copy of her book you're reading, but when I cleaned up my versions, I also added several pages of warnings as an introduction to the book, where I point out some of the practices in the book that are no longer considered safe. You can find links to them in my signature line below.

Dave


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## ólom (Nov 23, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I don't know what copy of her book you're reading, but when I cleaned up my versions, I also added several pages of warnings as an introduction to the book, where I point out some of the practices in the book that are no longer considered safe. You can find links to them in my signature line below.
> 
> Dave


Thanks! I downloaded the book from a Google search and translated it with deepl.


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 23, 2022)

There are some errors in some of the versions on the internet. For example, in many cases, the original optical character recognition software interpreted iridium as indium because the "ri" was close together so it interpreted it as an "n". There are also missing parts of pages, and many places where it substituted some letters as asterisks and other special characters.

When I created my versions, I was able to compare everything to an original 1940 printing of the book, so it's a little more accurate.

Dave


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## ólom (Nov 23, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> There are some errors in some of the versions on the internet. For example, in many cases, the original optical character recognition software interpreted iridium as indium because the "ri" was close together so it interpreted it as an "n". There are also missing parts of pages, and many places where it substituted some letters as asterisks and other special characters.
> 
> When I created my versions, I was able to compare everything to an original 1940 printing of the book, so it's a little more accurate.
> 
> Dave


Thanks for sharing this with me!


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## ólom (Nov 26, 2022)

Hello! Why doesn't the book write about smb? If we add sulfuric acid to the ar, does it help get rid of the lead? I'm a little confused, maybe because of the translation or because he writes a lot about lead.


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## ólom (Nov 26, 2022)

I asked about integrated circuits earlier. Do you have any idea how to burn off the coal? I tried, it's not easy.


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 26, 2022)

ólom said:


> Hello! Why doesn't the book write about smb? If we add sulfuric acid to the ar, does it help get rid of the lead? I'm a little confused, maybe because of the translation or because he writes a lot about lead.


Remember that the book was written in 1940 (actually it was written over a period of years and published in 1940). SMB was not used at that time, now was sulfamic acid to deNOX. Yes, a bit of sulfuric acid will drop any lead from solution. That is one of the advantages of using sulfamic acid. One of it's decomposition products is sulfuric acid, so it will deNOX a solution and also drop any lead.

C.M. Hoke was a lady. While she's often referred to as Ms. Hoke, she was actually married.

Dave


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## ólom (Nov 26, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Remember that the book was written in 1940 (actually it was written over a period of years and published in 1940). SMB was not used at that time, now was sulfamic acid to deNOX. Yes, a bit of sulfuric acid will drop any lead from solution. That is one of the advantages of using sulfamic acid. One of it's decomposition products is sulfuric acid, so it will deNOX a solution and also drop any lead.
> 
> C.M. Hoke was a lady. While she's often referred to as Ms. Hoke, she was actually married.
> 
> Dave


Thanks for the answer!


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 26, 2022)

ólom said:


> Hello! Why doesn't the book write about smb? If we add sulfuric acid to the ar, does it help get rid of the lead? I'm a little confused, maybe because of the translation or because he writes a lot about lead.


I think it was before the use of SMB was “invented”. She wrote about SO2 though which is the active ingredient in SMB.
It was written somewhere around 1940.
She was a brilliant “Teacher” in that she wrote it in a very accessible language and a way most people could relate to.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 26, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Remember that the book was written in 1940 (actually it was written over a period of years and published in 1940). SMB was not used at that time, now was sulfamic acid to deNOX. Yes, a bit of sulfuric acid will drop any lead from solution. That is one of the advantages of using sulfamic acid. One of it's decomposition products is sulfuric acid, so it will deNOX a solution and also drop any lead.
> 
> C.M. Hoke was a lady. While she's often referred to as Ms. Hoke, she was actually married.
> 
> Dave


I’m too late again


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 26, 2022)

ólom said:


> I asked about integrated circuits earlier. Do you have any idea how to burn off the coal? I tried, it's not easy.


You should pyrolize first, ie burn off the volatiles by high heat and no oxygen.
The gases can be burnt off by leading them back to the fire that crates the heat.
Then incinerate by high heat and plenty oxygen.

When done the will look whitish grey.

It is possible to grind them and gravity separate and then incinerate just the concentrates.


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## ólom (Nov 26, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You should pyrolize first, ie burn off the volatiles by high heat and no oxygen.
> The gases can be burnt off by leading them back to the fire that crates the heat.
> Then incinerate by high heat and plenty oxygen.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer!


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## ólom (Nov 26, 2022)

I burned these integrated circuits before, I burned them until they turned white-grey and then I ground the ashes into powder and washed them but there is a lot of carbon in them. If I got rid of the carbon, how should I process it afterwards, 25kg of metal and a lot of iron? I also want to recover the silver from it and use as little ar as possible to recover the gold.


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 26, 2022)

ólom said:


> I burned these integrated circuits before, I burned them until they turned white-grey and then I ground the ashes into powder and washed them but there is a lot of carbon in them. If I got rid of the carbon, how should I process it afterwards, 25kg of metal and a lot of iron? I also want to recover the silver from it and use as little ar as possible to recover the gold.


After you have pyrolized them, most people grind them to a powder and remove Iron with a magnet.
Then they gravity separate them.

But search the forum and read it all.
There are days of reading and it is worth it.


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## ólom (Nov 26, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> After you have pyrolized them, most people grind them to a powder and remove Iron with a magnet.
> Then they gravity separate them.
> 
> But search the forum and read it all.
> There are days of reading and it is worth it.


Thanks!


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## ólom (Nov 26, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> After you have pyrolized them, most people grind them to a powder and remove Iron with a magnet.
> Then they gravity separate them.
> 
> But search the forum and read it all.
> There are days of reading and it is worth it.


The problem is that the one with the gold is also made of iron, but I'll look it up on the forum!


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## Rreyes097 (Nov 28, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Remember that the book was written in 1940 (actually it was written over a period of years and published in 1940). SMB was not used at that time, now was sulfamic acid to deNOX. Yes, a bit of sulfuric acid will drop any lead from solution. That is one of the advantages of using sulfamic acid. One of it's decomposition products is sulfuric acid, so it will deNOX a solution and also drop any lead.
> 
> C.M. Hoke was a lady. While she's often referred to as Ms. Hoke, she was actually married.
> 
> Dave


So sulphuric acid isn't necessary if you are using sulfamic acid to denox?


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 28, 2022)

Rreyes097 said:


> So sulphuric acid isn't necessary if you are using sulfamic acid to denox?


Correct


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## ólom (Dec 7, 2022)

Hello! I wrote here earlier that I processed a lot of integrated circuits. As a test, I put some iron material in dilute nitric acid (1 liter of tap water and 1 liter of 53% acid). It has been in it for almost 2 weeks, but it hardly dissolved any iron. Why is that? How long does it take to dissolve it? The solution turned blue, which indicates silver. Thanks!


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 7, 2022)

ólom said:


> Hello! I wrote here earlier that I processed a lot of integrated circuits. As a test, I put some iron material in dilute nitric acid (1 liter of tap water and 1 liter of 53% acid). It has been in it for almost 2 weeks, but it hardly dissolved any iron. Why is that? How long does it take to dissolve it? The solution turned blue, which indicates silver. Thanks!


I don't know how long it will take, but blue indicate Copper not Silver.
Silver Nitrate is colorless.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 7, 2022)

Nitric acid can passivate the surface of iron or steel... for a while. Then the reaction can take off and accelerate. Make sure there is plenty of extra room in the vessel.

Dave


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## ólom (Dec 7, 2022)

Thank you for answering!


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

Hello! Could you help me? I filtered the ar, it contained silver chloride and greenish blue powder. I poured the filtered solution into another container to make sure it was clean and looked clean, then I used urea (I know I shouldn't have, but I couldn't get sulfamic acid) then I dropped the gold with vitamin c and it worked. Now, however, there is a greenish-brown powder at the bottom of my container, and there is something in it that looks like granulated sugar, which is white in color. What can it be and what should I do about it? The gold drop was successful, but I think they could have slipped through the filter paper, which I didn't notice. Thanks!


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 9, 2022)

ólom said:


> Hello! Could you help me? I filtered the ar, it contained silver chloride and greenish blue powder. I poured the filtered solution into another container to make sure it was clean and looked clean, then I used urea (I know I shouldn't have, but I couldn't get sulfamic acid) then I dropped the gold with vitamin c and it worked. Now, however, there is a greenish-brown powder at the bottom of my container, and there is something in it that looks like granulated sugar, which is white in color. What can it be and what should I do about it? The gold drop was successful, but I think they could have slipped through the filter paper, which I didn't notice. Thanks!


What solution of AR? 
You have been around doing different things, so for us that are all around the forum, it is not easy to keep in control what you have done earlier.
There will be very little Silver Chloride in AR.
You can avoid using Sufamic or Urea by using the Nitric correctly and then add a bit of Copper before Dropping the Gold.
I guess it is some of the Urea or Ascorbic Acid that crystallizes out when the solution cools down.
It can be avoided by filtering everything cold.
After the drop you can wash the Gold powder, with HCl and then water.


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> What solution of AR?
> You have been around doing different things, so for us that are all around the forum, it is not easy to keep in control what you have done earlier.
> There will be very little Silver Chloride in AR.
> You can avoid using Sufamic or Urea by using the Nitric correctly and then add a bit of Copper before Dropping the Gold.
> ...


Thanks for the answer! I put connectors in the ar, which I didn't take apart, but put them in together with plastic. It also had soldered material in it.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 9, 2022)

ólom said:


> Thanks for the answer! I put connectors in the ar, which I didn't take apart, but put them in together with plastic. It also had soldered material in it.


You should have been here long enough to know not to mix solder with Nitric.
Well, you probably was lucky this time, since you didn’t report any filtering issues.

First question:
Was all metallic parts dissolved?

Second:
How did you mix your AR?
Did you heat it?

Third:
Why do you think there was Silver in it?


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You should have been here long enough to know not to mix solder with Nitric.
> Well, you probably was lucky this time, since you didn’t report any filtering issues.
> 
> First question:
> ...


Everything was resolved. I mixed the aqua regia beforehand, I know it's not supposed to be that way, but in this case I did it this way. I didn't warm it up. I think because I think there was also a silver-plated part in it, but I'm not sure about that.


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

The blue or white powder left after the ar stops is why I think of silver.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 9, 2022)

ólom said:


> The blue or white powder left after the ar stops is why I think of silver.


Silver Nitrate is NOT blue, Copper Nitrate is.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 9, 2022)

ólom said:


> Everything was resolved. I mixed the aqua regia beforehand, I know it's not supposed to be that way, but in this case I did it this way. I didn't warm it up. I think because I think there was also a silver-plated part in it, but I'm not sure about that.


Your white crystals are most likely some Urea derivative, since you had to use much to get the fizzing to stop?

Do not do this anymore.
Stop completely and start reading.
Anything you have started, stop it, and stow it away until you have studied so you understand what you are doing.
Ok???


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Your white crystals are most likely some Urea derivative, since you had to use much to get the fizzing to stop?
> 
> Do not do this anymore.
> Stop completely and start reading.
> ...


I had to use a lot of urea. OK, I'll stop. So should I wash what I have now with hydrochloric acid and then with water and get the gold dust?




https://www.google.com/search?q=for...EAiAEAkgEAmAEAsAEP&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 9, 2022)

ólom said:


> I had to use a lot of urea. OK, I'll stop. So should I wash what I have now with hydrochloric acid and then with water and get the gold dust?
> 
> View attachment 53596
> 
> ...


That should be safe to do, you will probably need to re refine it at a later time, 
but boil it in water and then a good hot HCl wash before a final water wash.
Dry it and store it for later.


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> That should be safe to do, you will probably need to re refine it at a later time,
> but boil it in water and then a good hot HCl wash before a final water wash.
> Dry it and store it for later.


Ok and thanks for your help!


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You should have been here long enough to know not to mix solder with Nitric.
> Well, you probably was lucky this time, since you didn’t report any filtering issues.
> 
> First question:
> ...


I know about the "dangers" of solder. I thought I would refine it twice and add sulfuric acid to save on sulfuric acid. Do you think this is a good idea?


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 9, 2022)

ólom said:


> I know about the "dangers" of solder. I thought I would refine it twice and add sulfuric acid to save on sulfuric acid. Do you think this is a good idea?


??
So you save sulfuric by using sulfuric?
So why do you plan to use Sulfuric?

Refining twice, I agree with.
And since you did not use Sulfamic I even agree with using a drop or two to remove Lead.
But I don’t see another use of it now.

And I thought the plan was to set it aside until you have studied enough to understand the processes.


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## ólom (Dec 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> ??
> So you save sulfuric by using sulfuric?
> So why do you plan to use Sulfuric?
> 
> ...


I'll just put it aside as we discussed. But I have gold dust from a long time ago, that's why I asked about sulfuric acid. But this is just a plan that I want to implement in the future.


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## chrundle_the_great (Dec 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Search the forum for Stannous test.
> How can you know what to do if you don't know what you have in solution?
> You definitely don't have much Silver, if there was it would be left on the bottom.
> Testing is simple, take a ml or so and add a few grains of Salt, if it creates a white fluffy precipitate it has Silver in it.
> But there shold not be, since there is HCl in the AR.


Can it be regular salt or does it have to be ionized salt? If it makes a difference how come, and what happens if you don't use the right kind?


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 10, 2022)

chrundle_the_great said:


> Can it be regular salt or does it have to be ionized salt? If it makes a difference how come, and what happens if you don't use the right kind?


Any Chloride will do, it is the Chloride Ion that does the job.
Even chlorinated water will do the same


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## ólom (Dec 10, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> That should be safe to do, you will probably need to re refine it at a later time,
> but boil it in water and then a good hot HCl wash before a final water wash.
> Dry it and store it for later.


Thanks again for your help! I managed to do it and got 6 grams of gold dust. Thanks!


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## ólom (Dec 10, 2022)

How can the gold dust stuck in the filter paper be removed from the filter paper?


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 10, 2022)

ólom said:


> How can the gold dust stuck in the filter paper be removed from the filter paper?


Did you filter it ??
The procedure is to wash it, pour off wash water, add new and pour off again.
In the end you pour off as much as you can without disturbing it, then siphon off the rest.

Well since it is in a paper, cut off the surplus paper and store it in the paper.
When you do the second refine the paper will decompose in the AR.

Everything you pour off from washes and such goes into first a settling vessel then into the Stock pot.


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## ólom (Dec 10, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Did you filter it ??
> The procedure is to wash it, pour off wash water, add new and pour off again.
> In the end you pour off as much as you can without disturbing it, then siphon off the rest.
> 
> ...


Yes, I filtered. Thanks for the answer!


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## ólom (Dec 27, 2022)

Is it silver or palladium and how can I tell the difference?


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## ólom (Dec 27, 2022)

Is it silver or palladium and how can I tell the difference?


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 27, 2022)

ólom said:


> Is it silver or palladium and how can I tell the difference?


Since the letters are roman, I assume it is most likely Tin, if not it can be Silver but that is quite rare.
Pd is even rarer, so add a drop or two of HCl to one of the traces and see if it reacts.
If not add a few drops of Nitric to another trace and see if that reacts..
Add a drop of Stannous to the drops and see if it is Pd.
Where does it come from?


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## kurtak (Dec 27, 2022)

ólom said:


> Is it silver or palladium and how can I tell the difference?


More then likely it's tin plating over copper (just like gold plating over copper but tin instead of gold)

Tin plating (instead of gold plating) was very common on *OLD *circuit boards

There are some *VERY RARE* exceptions where palladium plating was used but that is mostly circuit boards made in Russia (Soviet Union countries) or very old military/aerospace boards 

The first test I would try is to put a couple drops HCl on it - *give it some time to react* - then wipe the HCL off 

If the HCl reacts with it &/or it exposes copper when you wipe it off - it's tin

Kurt


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## ólom (Dec 27, 2022)

Thank you for your answers! I don't know where it's from.


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## ólom (Dec 27, 2022)

The hcl did not react with it, the nitric acid started to dissolve it. I can't do a stannous chloride test because I'm not at home.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 27, 2022)

ólom said:


> The hcl did not react with it, the nitric acid started to dissolve it. I can't do a stannous chloride test because I'm not at home.


Already??
How much time did you use for the reaction?
I would at least given it half an hour.
Are something left behind?


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 27, 2022)

ólom said:


> The hcl did not react with it, the nitric acid started to dissolve it. I can't do a stannous chloride test because I'm not at home.


Just to make sure , you should ad a grain or two with salt to see if it creates a fluffy salt,
Then it may be Silver.


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## ólom (Dec 27, 2022)

the back


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## ólom (Dec 27, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Already??
> How much time did you use for the reaction?
> I would at least given it half an hour.
> Are something left behind?


I didn't leave much time for the reaction


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 27, 2022)

ólom said:


> I didn't leave much time for the reaction


Which means it could well have reacted with HCl. Cold HCl are not very reactive.


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## kurtak (Dec 27, 2022)

Ok - I just took a closer look at the traces on these boards - this time I enlarged the pics for a better look - They are clearly not silver &/or palladium - clearly tin & because of their age (VERY OLD) maybe even tin/lead

The tin (&/or tin/lead) was applied by a wave soldering method (molten solder applied to the traces)

This is clearly evident in that with a close up (enlarged) look at them they (the traces) are raised up & rounded over - so they are not even really plated - evident by the molten solder applied to them

Even the traces that are flat(er) are clearly tin (these traces are likely plated) --- the dead give away is the fact that many of the traces have "breaks" in them where the tin has etched/corroded away &/or etching/corroding on the edges of the traces over *MANY* years of exposer to *normal atmospheric conditions *--- silver &/or palladium would *NOT* do this

Tin plating &/or wave soldering was *VERY COMMON* with *OLD* circuit boards

*There is no need* to test these boards (for silver &/or palladium) any further --- they are *VERY clearly* tinned

Kurt


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## Shark (Dec 27, 2022)

This is a good example of why high quality pictures are ask for so often. If a good picture is worth a thousand words then a poor quality picture is like a thousand misspelled words.


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## ólom (Dec 27, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Ok - I just took a closer look at the traces on these boards - this time I enlarged the pics for a better look - They are clearly not silver &/or palladium - clearly tin & because of their age (VERY OLD) maybe even tin/lead
> 
> The tin (&/or tin/lead) was applied by a wave soldering method (molten solder applied to the traces)
> 
> ...


Thank you for checking!


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