# Beginner fun few small pieces



## adam_mizer

Here's my first ever.
All the little buttons were done 1 after the other so I could gain melting experience and have a little fun while the wife and daughter watched. 
They loved it.
I tried to make a couple shapes too.


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## Barren Realms 007

Nice.

Uh oh glorycloud has some compatition. 8) :mrgreen:


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## philddreamer

You getting gold hail in Boise??? :shock: 

Very nice indeed! 8) 

Phil


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## goldenchild

This is excellent for a first melt! Certainly better than my first. That 7.3 gramer is especially nice. The all look to be of very high purity. Congrats 8) 

P.S. glorycloud would have been too easy :lol:


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## Anonymous

goldenchild said:


> That 7.3 gramer is especially nice. The all look to be of very high purity.


Yeh no crap! I still make nuggets today(after years of processing)that don't look as pure as that 7.3gr. Granted it's not often but still,you have a very nice array there.Can't wait to see what you can do with a 1+ ouncer.It'll probably look like something nic would use for a rearview mirror on his beamer.(to match his brake calipers) :mrgreen:


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## adam_mizer

Thanks guy's this couldn't have been done without all the input I got from the members of the forum and the existing posts that go back some years, there's plenty of good reading here. 
Actually those buttons are much better looking in person, I guess the ugly reflection of my face in them scared there shine off. Just a little more time in washing maybe with some heat next round and I'm sure I can get a little cleaner on the first refine melt.

Looking forward to processing some more tidbits I have built up and learn poorman AR method next. 
I guess I'm getting too soft lately to work outside in the cold and set up the deplating cell, have to give myself a kick and get out there. These little beauty's might be just enough to get me outside tomorrow and get at it again.

Got to give Steve big huge thanks, would not have been able to do this without the information and video's at http://goldrecovery.us/.


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## Anonymous

adam_mizer said:


> would not have been able to do this without the information and video's at http://goldrecovery.us/.


When you decide to sell those,don't forget he has a donate button on his site to help him keep it up and running.If every member donated $5 a year steve would never have to work again........but if I know steve,he'd still be out there dissolving something........ROFL.Thanks steve.


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## glorycloud

I offer to donate $5.00 to the kind soul who will do a melting video
revealing the secrets of spherical gold button formation for dummies. :lol:


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## Barren Realms 007

glorycloud said:


> I offer to donate $5.00 to the kind soul who will do a melting video
> revealing the secrets of spherical gold button formation for dummies. :lol:



Just send the powder to me and I will melt it for you. 8) 
Of course when I send your chips to you you will have a new tourch.


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## adam_mizer

I wonder if GloryCloud has a torch with limited capabilities?
My mapp gas torch puts out too much flame pressure and in order to use it, the flame must start very far from the powder and I don't like it.

The oxy/acetylene however is great and can be adjusted from slow to fast pressure and the the tips can be changed, for some reason maybe control I like the small double zero tip and the one in there is a single zero. The oxy/acetylene works very fast on small grammage with the proper flame adjustments.

When I get a few dollars from this experience I will get the parts neccessary to finish my hydrogen torch and will test that.

From a beginners point of view making circular buttons, plenty of heat as it wants to turn into a circle by itself. Always rotating the torch tip, a circular pattern is a very easy movement. Having to play with the button cooling time and remove it while the button is still red hot to slide off the borax, I'm using metal tweezers (with curved head) to assist the slide off the cupel. 
Its working for this first timer.


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## glorycloud

I am getting close to wanting to melt again. Ahhh the agony of it all!! 8) 

Maybe I just have the Mapp torch turned up to high? I think I will try the
mini furnace that nice guy lazersteve sent me on this next button and 
maybe, just maybe, I will achieve the sphericalness I so long for in my
little chunks-o-gold. :lol: 

Of course, if barren ever sends me my chips and the torch he so graciously
offered, then that may be an alternative as well. 8)


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## goldenchild

glorycloud said:


> I am getting close to wanting to melt again. Ahhh the agony of it all!! 8)
> 
> Maybe I just have the Mapp torch turned up to high? I think I will try the
> mini furnace that nice guy lazersteve sent me on this next button and
> maybe, just maybe, I will achieve the sphericalness I so long for in my
> little chunks-o-gold. :lol:
> 
> Of course, if barren ever sends me my chips and the torch he so graciously
> offered, then that may be an alternative as well. 8)



Can you show us a picture of your torch? Here is the kind I use if not using my oxy/acet rig.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/KITS/TORCHKITS/tabid/215/ctl/Detail/mid/1147/xmid/6958/xmfid/3/Default.aspx

It can melt down an ounce of powder rather easily with an open crucible.


Oh and the fuel will last a really long time.


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## glorycloud

I have a rig like that except I don't have the newer torch tip like
the one in your link. I couldn't seem to find the right torch tip replacement
kit when I went and looked the last time I went. I will have to look
again at HD or online.

Muchas gracias! 8)


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## Barren Realms 007

That looks like the one I was going to send to you. When you are using it do you have the flow know turned open all the way? It could be that you just need to keep theheat on your button a little while longer. Also it might be that your melting dish needs to be a little hotter for the button to melt completely. I forgot what you said you have your melting dish setting on when you are trying to melt. If you have your dish on a piece of sheetrock or insulation so the heat dosen't get sucked away from your dish. Also if your bottle starts running low on fuel that will effect it. If you have a bottle that is partialy empty get a new bottle. Use the partialy empty bottle to start heating the melting dish and then when you get close to finishing switch to the new bottle to finish the melting.


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## adam_mizer

> Can you show us a picture of your torch? Here is the kind I use if not using my oxy/acet rig.
> 
> http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/KITS/TORCHKITS/tabid/215/ctl/Detail/mid/1147/xmid/6958/xmfid/3/Default.aspx
> 
> It can melt down an ounce of powder rather easily with an open crucible.
> 
> 
> Oh and the fuel will last a really long time.



I have this one also but its just a little high on pressure, are they adjustable have never checked to see?
The oxy/acetylene is just so much better! 

Running outside right now to process a few pounds of GP jewelry and a piece of 50 time plate over nickel and 2-3 pounds pins. I set-up a second deplater to do both at the same time. Started yesterday afternoon on this project, its 30 degree's and thats the warmest its been in the last 2 weeks.


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## Barren Realms 007

If you look at the link that was posted there is an adjustment knob on the right side of the picture. If your dosen't have that it is possible it is not a tru MAPP gas tourch but just a regular tourch.

What do you mean "high on pressure"?


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## goldenchild

This torch is definately adjustable. I dont think I've ever had to open the valve all the way to acheive melting temp. You should also know that the tip is not changable. It's a one piece unit that screws onto the canister. You guys are twisting my arm now  I have a 3+ ounce melt comming up and I'll make a vid. I will show the borax prep (which actually may be part of gloryclouds problem) and the actual melt in real time. Hopefully I can get it done in the 10 mins youtube will allow but I think its possible. Also... what type of crucible are you using glorycloud? I have both the high temp silica ones and the kind lazersteve sells. I will use whatever you have so you can see I have nothing up my sleeve.


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## Barren Realms 007

The end of the tip will screw off.


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## adam_mizer

Wow, I did not notice the adjustment knob. I purchased mine maybe about 8 years ago. 
When you can hear the torch flame in air pretty loud I call that pressure, this one is unadjustable. It will blow the powder if your not carefull.



Barren Realms 007 said:


> If you look at the link that was posted there is an adjustment knob on the right side of the picture. If your dosen't have that it is possible it is not a tru MAPP gas tourch but just a regular tourch.
> 
> What do you mean "high on pressure"?


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## Barren Realms 007

Yes that is the older version. 

If you will add your powder with a little flux to your melting dish and then heat the bottom of your melting dish, your powder when it gets hot will stay together and not have as much of a chance to blow out by the flame. About 3 oz of powder at a time is as much as you want to try but once they are in buttons you can combine them and get 6-7 oz melted in the melting dish.


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## adam_mizer

Here's a nice mini torch setup. Very portable.
I like the small tips and the gas lasts real long, don't use it alot. 
Its great for small AC repairs, I'm pretty good at sniffing and fixing tiny leaks.

Works real good on powder melt.


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## Barren Realms 007

I have a set up like that as well along with the big set as well. This video shows the largest tip that is available for the B-tank setup you can't see the tip very well because of the dark but I have silver soldered 4" copper tubing with the this tip. It is as big around as your thumb about 3/4" and sucks the gas down. It's all in knowing what your equipment will do and what you feel comfortable with using. The tip in this video will cost as much as the whole setup you show.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLoCEvud0kM[/youtube]


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## adam_mizer

Thats awesome Barren, very beaffy flame and tip.
Whats in the picture? 
Looks like a melted liquid bath below a metal bowl?


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## Barren Realms 007

It's a melting dish with some gold in it. Dosent take long wit that tip to melt.


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## glorycloud

I use Steve's melting dish and I am pretty sure that I am appropriately heating the dish before adding the gold powder to melt. I can get the
powder to melt more quickly since I started putting koa wool under
the mini furnace / melting dish. :roll: 

I have the gas cranked up pretty high when melting without the mini
furnace top on. It seems that the force of the gas is flattening out 
the button when everything is all nice and molten and I am playing
the glowing orb around in the dish. 

Do you let it cool off when it is spherical in nature and use stainless steel tweezers to remove the button from the dish or slide it out from the dish?
Anyway, I am a visual learner and a video would be awesome!!! 8) 

Muchas gracias amigos!!


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## Barren Realms 007

Sonds like whatever your dish has been setting on before you started using the insulation was acting as a heat sink. One the gold is liquid and moves around the dish easily I let a top form on it and pry it up from the bttom of the dish and tip the dish up and let the button fall in a stainless steel container with water. This seems to eliminate the majority of flux that might stick to the button if you let it cool too much.


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## glorycloud

I used to have the dish / furnace bottom sitting on a steel PC side cover
that was sitting on fire bricks. I was more concerned about messing up my 
work bench then melting gold quickly it seems. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## goldenchild

glorycloud said:


> I have the gas cranked up pretty high when melting without the mini
> furnace top on. It seems that the force of the gas is flattening out
> the button when everything is all nice and molten and I am playing
> the glowing orb around in the dish.



I dont know how this is happening to you. If I had say a 10 gram button, when the gold is fully melted I can keep the torch on the button full blast and it still maintains it's spherical shape. If I turn the torch off very abruptly or take the flame away from the crucible a big pipe is made in the button because of the big disturbance. If I keep the flame on the button and taper the flame down I get a button with a very small pipe or even just a little hole. Being so pure I dont think its possible to not have a pipe.

In my vid I will melt about 2 ounces(in the process of refining) of twice refined gold powder in an open crucible on top of a firebrick. The firebrick will be on top of an ordinary table that has seen better days. After the 2 ounces of powder is melted I will let it cool for a little while and then add a 1 ounce ingot and an 8 gram button and melt that too. 

glorycloud,

I still think you may not have enough borax in your crucible based on your uniquely shaped pirate earring. That work of art looks like you werent able to get all the gold to come together. Do you move the crucible around to try and get all the gold to come together? I call it pac manning. Either way you will see how I do it on the vid.


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## Barren Realms 007

Here is a video for you, it is not as good as Steve's.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjl0tAtjlxg[/youtube]


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## shyknee

goldenchild I think will agree with me that the time it took was too long for that amount of gold to melt with mapp gas 
I think the air to gas mix might be off a bit and does not get as hot as my torch.

all this is in reference to barren's posted video.


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## Barren Realms 007

It was mainly posted for Glorycloud to give him a perspective on what he is possibly dealing with. It was done with an older tip that I have and is not what I usualy use to melt with. I don't usually melt that small of an amount any way. He was asking for a video to give him some reference on what he needs to do with the equipment he has to work with.


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## goldenchild

shyknee said:


> goldenchild I think will agree with me that the time it took was too long for that amount of gold to melt with mapp gas
> I think the air to gas mix might be off a bit and does not get as hot as my torch.
> 
> all this is in reference to barren's posted video.



Too many unknowns to come to a conclusion such as... how cold is the weather? What kind of torch? Barren says its an older one so I'm assuming its not the TS8000 like I posted. How much gold? I'd say about 8-10 grams. How pure is the gold? How much borax was used? This is one I think people overlook. If you use too little the gold may not be able to move around easily with such a small amount of gold. If you use too much the gold may not be able to move around easily with such a small amount AND it can prevent much of the heat from getting to the gold. Ever try to get metals to come together when using a MAPP gas torch and too much soda ash?

But yeah. If it was about 10 grams of very pure gold in a well coated dish it should only take a couple of minutes.


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## Barren Realms 007

goldenchild said:


> shyknee said:
> 
> 
> 
> goldenchild I think will agree with me that the time it took was too long for that amount of gold to melt with mapp gas
> I think the air to gas mix might be off a bit and does not get as hot as my torch.
> 
> all this is in reference to barren's posted video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too many unknows to come to a conclusion such as... how cold is the weather? What kind of torch? Barren says its an older one so I'm assuming its not the TS8000 like I posted. How much gold? I'd say about 8-10 grams. How pure is the gold? How much borax was used? This is one I think people overlook. If you use too little the gold may not be able to move around easily with such a small amount of gold. If you use too much the gold may not be able to move around easily with such a small amount AND it can prevent much of the heat from getting to the gold. Ever try to get metals to come together when using a MAPP gas torch and too much soda ash?
> 
> But yeah. If it was about 10 grams of very pure gold in a well coated dish it should only take a couple of minutes.
Click to expand...


The temp here is 31Fand the bottle was cold. I heated it up some in hot water to warm the bottle but not enough to heat the gas up. The button came to 8.75g with very little flux used in the process and no soda ash. I didn't bring these points up because I didn't want it to look like I was making excuses for the time it took to melt.


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## glorycloud

Hmmmm. I may now understand Barren thanks to your video.
You make very violent fast circles when melting and I have not done anything at all like that with my melting "attempts". 8) 

I may add a little more borax to the dish to see it that helps as well.
Cool!! Thanks guys!! There may be hope for me yet. :lol:


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## dtectr

GC
You now know you should just have said, "I was experimenting a little to see what kind of shapes I could get"!! :lol:  

Oh yeah - don't let your wife watch !! :lol: :lol: 8) 

"Don't worry - it happens to a lot of guys!" ROFL

And don't forget the violent fast circles - that's one I can personally vouch for!  :twisted: 

(Oh, man - I think my meds just wore off!!)


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## glorycloud

Um, you're not referring to melting gold , are you? :roll:


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## joem

dtectr said:


> GC
> You now know you should just have said, "I was experimenting a little to see what kind of shapes I could get"!! :lol:
> 
> Oh yeah - don't let your wife watch !! :lol: :lol: 8)
> 
> "Don't worry - it happens to a lot of guys!" ROFL
> 
> And don't forget the violent fast circles - that's one I can personally vouch for!  :twisted:
> 
> (Oh, man - I think my meds just wore off!!)


 :shock:


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## goldenchild

glorycloud said:


> Hmmmm. I may now understand Barren thanks to your video.
> You make very violent fast circles when melting and I have not done anything at all like that with my melting "attempts". 8)
> 
> I may add a little more borax to the dish to see it that helps as well.
> Cool!! Thanks guys!! There may be hope for me yet. :lol:



You can even grip the crucible with a pair of pliers and move it around that way.


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## qst42know

Quite a bit of the heat applied was lost into the brick the dish was sitting on. It was glowing red in daylight when the dish was lifted. A porous fire brick to set the dish on would help a great deal.


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## Barren Realms 007

qst42know said:


> Quite a bit of the heat applied was lost into the brick the dish was sitting on. It was glowing red in daylight when the dish was lifted. A porous fire brick to set the dish on would help a great deal.



If you are talking about my video look again that was not a brick. It was a piece of sheetrock setting on top of a brick. The sheetrock acts as an insulator from the brick.


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## qst42know

I don't know the insulation value of sheet rock. If you have a small piece of expanded metal to put between the sheet rock and the dish, see if it doesn't improve your melt time.


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## Barren Realms 007

The sheetrock is a better insulator tho. The expanded metal will start to rust and contaminate your melt when the flakes start to fly around. Good idea tho if it is all that is available. Fiberglass insulation will work well too. I just happen to have a piece of sheetrock at the shop that needed to be used up. I hate throwing something away I can make use of. I think the insulation value of the sheetrock is around R-4 to R-6


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## Oz

Just had to bust on you a little bit Barren.

I would think that R value is highly dependent upon the thickness of the material. I would assume you were referring to half inch in your example.


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## Barren Realms 007

No problem with that Oz, and yes you are correct in saying 1/2" which is what I am using.


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## dtectr

FWIW
newer sheetrock (last 2 decades) actually has better R value than the older - to make sheetrock lighter, use less material, & yes, even increase insulation properties, mfrs add significantly more detergent to the gypsum slurry prior to mfr, thus introducing "bubbles" of air; the trapped air pockets provide the insulative properties. In cheaper sheetrock the occasional random bubble can be enormous.


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## adam_mizer

I was watching a gold melt video on youtube.
The guy put powder right on a insulative white mat type material and made a button, no crucible. :shock: 
Where do they sell the white insulative matt material? I think that was a excellent high temp insulative material to use.


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## Barren Realms 007

It is a tpe of insulation. You will have more of a chance of loosing some of your values doing it that way than in a melting dish or crucible. Look on the newer gas water heaters(5-7 years in age) that have an enclosed chamber and you will find a piece.


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## joem

I bought a roll off ebay for 11 dollars. I use it to cradle my melting dish thus keeping heat from escaping out the bottom.


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## adam_mizer

Yes this is what I thought it would be great for.

Maybe I don't know any better but the melts I did there wasn't anything special at all.
Crucible dish from Steve and concrete floor, a couple minutes and all was said and done.
Tried some borax and noticed it was like melting glass, had to put more in and gu-roll with flame around whole dish and tried to get some of the upper top edge right to the outside of the dish while using foot long needle nose pliers to grab the dish and foot long vise clamp if I need a mild cradle. Thought I put too much borax but after playing with the first and second small buttons I was catching on.

Pretty darn neandathol (bare-bones) if I can say so. 



joem said:


> I bought a roll off ebay for 11 dollars. I use it to cradle my melting dish thus keeping heat from escaping out the bottom.


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## qst42know

Never heat directly on a concrete floor. Concrete is porous enough to draw moisture from the ground. Steam explosions can blow concrete shards forcefully enough to invert your dish or worse cut skin or take an eye.


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## adam_mizer

qst42know said:


> Never heat directly on a concrete floor. Concrete is porous enough to draw moisture from the ground. Steam explosions can blow concrete shards forcefully enough to invert your dish or worse cut skin or take an eye.



Very good point!
Yes I agree with that, but this makes a difference on the concrete slab selected and tested, heavy indoor parking slab that has been pre-tested with torch. Should have mentioned this. 
I tested the small slab outside the side door and yes that one sends small chips flying as it has drawn in and locked up some moisture.
A fresh slab would also be very scary to use.

I can see why a good brick would come in handy.


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## Barren Realms 007

adam_mizer said:


> qst42know said:
> 
> 
> 
> Never heat directly on a concrete floor. Concrete is porous enough to draw moisture from the ground. Steam explosions can blow concrete shards forcefully enough to invert your dish or worse cut skin or take an eye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very good point!
> Yes I agree with that, but this makes a difference on the concrete slab selected and tested, heavy indoor parking slab that has been pre-tested with torch. Should have mentioned this.
> I tested the small slab outside the side door and yes that one sends small chips flying as it has drawn in and locked up some moisture.
> A fresh slab would also be very scary to use.
> 
> I can see why a good brick would come in handy.
Click to expand...


Injury is a hard lesson to learn. Any concrete can absorb moisture without you knowledge, even if a selant has been applied. No reason to take a chance.


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## adam_mizer

Wish all powder could clean to this color so easily. Shown with flash and no flash. Not much but the small amount is very dense at 4.5gm. Also this powder will settle on any part of the glass surface as seen.


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## samuel-a

adam_mizer said:


> I was watching a gold melt video on youtube.
> The guy put powder right on a insulative white mat type material and made a button, no crucible. :shock:



I believe it's our very own Noxx that did this melt, isn't it?

Adam, gold powder will cling on to any scratch that is in the glass, one would want to move the powder from one container to another less as possible.
a little HCL+Cl will remove the gold powder from the glass immediately.


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## adam_mizer

Those aren't scratches in the glass. Thats me trying to push it off. Didn't work to well. Thats brand new borcosilicate glass.
This powder in the picture was so fine, much more fine than other powders. 
The majority of the material to create this powder was the small thin pins from computer jumper blocks.
I had this once before, a super fine powder that adhere's to everything.
Very hard to deal with because you have to put it somewhere.

I need to think of a small tool, maybe a miniature spatula tool like a little bigger than a toothpick.


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## wrecker45

hi adam - mizer how many of those jumper blocks did you do and what yeald did you get i have been saving them up for 3 years thanks in advance jim


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## FrugalEE

I've found a fine water color brush to be very helpful when moving gold foils. FrugalEE


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## adam_mizer

I took so many measurements of that stuff should have written it down.
I believe that was at least 520 grams small pins, and 110 grams pins from old 1980 centronics connectors the kind that look like the old printer and 50 pin type scsi connector connector if you remember those, and 110 grams from 1980 telecom card slots.
Just about forgot another 5oz's pins from telecom backplanes.
Total now 880 grams of material so just under 2 pound approximately. Maybe there is a tiny bit more values locked in the sulphuric acid for now.

I'm very good and getting better dealing with rinse/wash off's.
Noticed if I rinse and wash and pour into other containers (one container to another), catch and collect all those particulates (put into pyrex vessel), and from filter wash too. 
Collect all the particulates and run them, I'm satisfied that I have not tossed any values.

I do 1 long acid sit for several hours (sometimes overnight) and give it a stir once in a while. Remove all discolor from this first acid rinse with water washes.
Put in fresh acid and bring to near boil, remove any acid discolor again with distilled water washes, then a final distilled water boil. Then process.

Noticed after the first acid boil how the particulate material sits very well on the bottom of the container easily. No floaty black particulates.
The acid washes are saved in another container. 
The rinses with waters are put in a seperate container. 
Containers are rechecked for values.

I hope I got all values with the methods I have learned.
I'm pretty happy right now with this basic method and in the future I will add the incineration to red hot and another wash rinse acid and water, that would be key to the high purity discussed in the forum.

(Edit) 1 more add in here.
Out of all the pins I have run and mind you I am a begginer I have yet to find anything that can produce more than approximately 2 grams gold per pound of pins.
I have processed pins I had collected from aerospace sales (Boeing/Rockwell) and came in bags labeled dates from the 1970's. Pins from 1980's, Pins from the 1990's, old/new telecom pins.
No yield has shown much over 2 grams per pound.

Someone please let me know if there is something different to look for. :lol:


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## goldenchild

The video is up but... The camera had technical difficulties right towards the end! :evil: What I posted is a salvage but I think people will get the gist. 
For glorycloud,
this is what I took away from it. Trying to melt 3+ ounces of gold with a MAPP gas torch is tough. I was barely able to get the entire amount of gold 100% molten. I felt your frustration in this melt. I actually never tried melting more than 1-2 ounces using MAPP gas. It also took longer than expected because of the amount of gold. I hope my video and Barrens will help you make your "first button". 

Images available in the gallery.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rMM-9Pm8Kg[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rMM-9Pm8Kg


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## samuel-a

Mario, Those are great videos.
(wanted to see the pour though 

Thanks.


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## adam_mizer

Very good Mario,
I wanted to ask about what you did to get the gold powder looking so stiff?
It was very odd clumpy shapes and very dense stiff like.


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## glorycloud

Nice! Thanks! I feel the love!! 8) 

Since yesterday was MLK Day, I will hum a few bars of:

I shall overcome!!! I shall overcome!!! 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## goldenchild

adam_mizer said:


> Very good Mario,
> I wanted to ask about what you did to get the gold powder looking so stiff?
> It was very odd clumpy shapes and very dense stiff like.



Torch dry your gold to get nice tight clumps.



glorycloud said:


> Nice! Thanks! I feel the love!! 8)
> 
> Since yesterday was MLK Day, I will hum a few bars of:
> 
> I shall overcome!!! I shall overcome!!!
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:



Hope you get it 8)


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## adam_mizer

I know this is not button pictures but these are nice examples of my auric chloride and refining getting better with time and practice.

The latest one is a very deep color.
Also beside it are 2 bottles of powder. The powder has been processed twice.
This powder is from different processes. 
The lighter color more yellow is mainly from the sulphuric cell and some poormans AR drops.
The darker color powder was from fingers and some poormans AR drops.

Have only done the poormans AR maybe 5-6 times and finally on the last 1-2 I got it as per Steve's instructions in another post. 
It took many many try's, seemed to get it close to right.

The powders are being saved because I can't make my mind up whether to shot or flake it. 
Surely would love to learn how Harold made his (corn) flakes. Somewhere I think I read he used 1/8" holes in a clay dish and then read somewhere a while ago possibly dropping on a spinning plate in water.
Can't seem to find those posts to help me make my mind up.

Also waiting for Steve's next video hope he gets it out real soon, just love them and they are great references.


----------



## Harold_V

adam_mizer said:


> The powders are being saved because I can't make my mind up whether to shot or flake it.
> Surely would love to learn how Harold made his (corn) flakes. Somewhere I think I read he used 1/8" holes in a clay dish and then read somewhere a while ago possibly dropping on a spinning plate in water.


Corn flakes are easy----simply pour molten gold over the lip of a melting dish, in to a deep metallic (stainless, if you can get one) container of water, no less than 12" deep, and pour slowly, so you don't get a column of hot gold that reaches the bottom of the container. If you have a few ounces of gold, move around the container as you pour.

Shot is made as you suggested---a metering hole is drilled in a melting dish, which is heated with a second torch. Gold is melted in a dish without a hole, then poured to the second dish when it is molten. The gold that is discharged through the hole will form reasonably round globs of gold of various sizes. There is no plate involved, although I kept my water cold, and used a small pump in the container to circulate the water, keeping it swirling. That goes a long ways towards preventing any molten gold from hitting the bottom. 

Harold


----------



## dtectr

goldenchild said:


> adam_mizer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very good Mario,
> I wanted to ask about what you did to get the gold powder looking so stiff?
> It was very odd clumpy shapes and very dense stiff like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Torch dry your gold to get nice tight clumps.
Click to expand...


Could you define "torch drying", as you use it? It sounds like it may be able to save me tons of time.
thanks
dtectr


----------



## adam_mizer

Mario has a nice method but it takes patience and practice from what he told me.
First off a special dish, quartz or some kind of silica that can withstand high temps.
He mentioned put your powder in the dish, settle remove as much water as possible, then torch dry carefully on low then the powder has a color change and you can adjust the torch higher.
Possibilities of popping moisture pockets and so on, he does a real good job of removing water droplets.
I imagine a little shaking around just to get the last water drop out before you torch.
This is a quick general explaination.

Mario explained this real accurate to me but I can't just post his method with out permission from him.

Hope he see's this post and and maybe he will post the method in stepwise fashion that he uses.


----------



## goldenchild

Sure no problem. As per the PM...

First you should understand that the purer your gold the more prone to clumping it will be. Gold has an affinity for itself.

So... 

1. First you get a high temp dish of some sort like the one here.

http://www.technicalglass.com/product_pages/fused_quartz_labware/labware/round_dishes.html I suppose you could use some type of crucible but it will become wet during this procedure and due to porosity I would avoid using a pourous crucible. 

2. On the final rinse of your gold, when you are sure there is no HCL, SMB or anything else in liquid form but water, pour off the water into another vessel. Leave just enough water to be able to slide the gold down into the dish. This will take practice. You may even have to use a sprayer to get any lingering gold into the dish. The idea is to get as little water into the dish as possible. (The more you can keep the gold in one single pile the bigger your clumps will be)

3. When your gold has 100% setteled in the dish siphon off the water and put it into the same vessel you poured off the original water. You will need to move the dish around to get any water that gets trapped under the piles of gold (also takes practice). The idea here is to get as much water as possible out of the dish.

4. Now you dry the gold with a torch. As you alluded to steam explosions and popping can occur. This is why it's very important to start off with a very light flame. Then as you see the surface of the gold lightening you increase heat. Its actully just like seasoning a crucible with borax although there should be more time between increases in heat. You obviously also stop when the gold is dry and dont bring it to a molten point.

5. After the gold is nice and dry and light in color let it cool down 100%. Your gold is now a "cake". You can now get it out of a dish and store. You can adjust the clumps' size by how much you break up this cake. Note that you will have gold stuck to the dish that can only be gotten by either wiping it with tissue paper or treating with AR. I recommend you just wipe it with tissue paper or a filter and put it in your burn pile. You also filter the water from the siphoning and pouring and put the filter paper into your burn pile.


----------



## glorycloud

Gentlemen, thanks for all the help and instruction on melting gold.
I was able to acheive spherical status with Barren's circular torch
motion. But then I let the button cool too long in the melting dish and
it got stuck in the borax, so I had to re-melt it. :roll:

I now have a 24.81 gram slightly oblong golden creation with a nice
pipe in the middle. 8) 

I will take a picture tomorrow and post it for all to see. Such a proud 
Poppa I am. :lol: 

Thanks again to one and all for putting up with my mis-shapen,
ameoba-esque chunks of gold for so long. It's too bad that I have
quite refining for now after I finally got the hang of melting! 
Maybe I will start a thread for posterity showing the evolution of 
my melting skills (or lack there of). :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Harold_V

goldenchild said:


> Sure no problem. As per the PM...
> 
> First you should understand that the purer your gold the more prone to clumping it will be. Gold has an affinity for itself.
> 
> So... 1. First you get a high temp dish of some sort like the one here.


Having read your procedure, it is clear, at least to me, that you are making more work than is required. 

For what it's worth, I dried my gold in the same beaker in which it was precipitated. It was also washed there--never transferred until it had been dried by heating well beyond the boiling point of water. As you alluded, if it's clean, it readily clumps, often coming out of the beaker in one lump. Technique is much the same, although you must be mindful that a beaker that is heated that hot is easy to crack by thermal shock. Not a problem---you simply allow it to cool slowly on the same source on which it was heated. If you're in a hurry, it can also be removed from the heat source. I used to place mine on an asbestos pad, along with the asbestos pad that was used in heating. No breakage, and no transfers of the gold until the process was complete. Faster, and less chance of losing gold in multiple transfers. 

Harold


----------



## lazersteve

I dry mine in the beaker in which it is precipitated and washed. I gradually raise the heat on the beaker and periodically swirl it to push out the excess water from the gold structure and keep the gold powder from sticking to the beaker.

Steve


----------



## adam_mizer

I also dry mine in the same beaker of precipiation, but its nice to see other methods like Mario's.

Funny thing happened last night, after work I decided to process 150grams of gold filled jewelry.
After 2 wash off's with poormans AR, looked at the residual silver nitrate on the bottom and was trying to decide wash this off now or later?
Well decided later because I thought there was gold powder mixed in with it, so to my amazement after I put in my water/hydrochloric immediately within seconds the silver nitrate went into solution.
EDIT; most likely this is a copper chloride.
This just does not happen I said to myself, it was not copper as thats pretty much all out of this solution. Okay put that wash out off to the side, test with copper heavy solid wire and yes its slow but precipitating silver over night. (After that I mixed it in with the other 2 wash offs). 

Well back to the final processing, it was getting late and all metals were in solution, again I'm amazed because this time all the silver was processed in poormans for my first time.
Usually its on the bottom or there's left over silver metals in the coffee pot. 
Super dark emerald green solution finally took off heat at around midnight. Put to the side and stone-ground bowl put over top and left to cool outside.
Guess it was around nice 45 last night.

This morning got to my solution and was pouring off to measure how many ml's it was to add 50% water to it. 
Well poured it off and on the bottom was a very nice silver crystal growth. :shock: 
Under the silver crystal was a small amount of silver nitrate and silver chloride, kind-of all in one for the silver this time around, a first for me.
Working on getting the gold out, and already have removed quite a bit of silver from the first washes.
EDIT; I love dreaming, again a chloride of copper is very likely.

Purchased Steve's DVD Silver A-Z man its great, lots of info thanks Steve as it will help me out to process all this silver I have been collecting while getting my gold powders.
Also started making large buttons from earlier mixed silver palladium gold residuals from poormans AR. Poormans AR is a tough method for silver, being a new guy I don't recommend it but have to learn the various processes.

A lucky find - purchased a silver bowl 1.25 pounds weight of .945 silver for $6. Once in a while things like this come around.

Here's a shot of the crystals and heavy emerald green poormans AR.


----------



## lazersteve

In poorman's AR the crystals are more than likely copper chloride or another chloride. Silver nitrate would quickly be converted to the chloride upon formation in AR. 

A simple test would be to dissolve a few of the crystals in water and then add a drop of HCl. If you see a curd like white precipitate that changes to purple in bright lght, it's silver. 

If the crystal won't dissolve in water try HCl. If this works it's likely copper I chloride.

Steve


----------



## Harold_V

adam_mizer said:


> to my amazement after I put in my water/hydrochloric immediately within seconds the silver nitrate went into solution.


That didn't raise a red flag for you?

Harold


----------



## adam_mizer

I have never seen crystal in my process so its a first.
When it happened it was rather exciting to see.

After 2 runs of process on the 150-160 grams of gold filled materials I had figured the base metals had been pulled into solution.
There was also a very small bit of material under the crystals that appeared as both some white silver chloride and grey silver nitrate.

After the second run I had thought when the HCl pulled that darker grey material really did not appear as a copper chloride (but what do I know :roll: ) that there may have been some residual AR and being a chloride type material that it went into solution very easy.
Although it makes sense that it is a copper chloride because of the behavior in HCl.
(Now excitement leaves my mind), ouch that feels awefull! 
I did not test this material, instead I have put it in a container of mixed nitrates and chlorides of what I think silver is.
Have seen some odd behavior recently of powders with nitrates and chlorides while I'm learning.

What I did do was while processing the leftover material to get my gold powder, first run had silver in it and it did go into HCl/CL and also fell out with SMB, then rinsed and started again, so I iced the solution on a second run and it held the silver in solution and the gold powder was able to drop this time.
The powder color was darker this time and under a microscope of mild magnification it was all the same color.
After the drop, I was wondering how to drop what I think is silver still in solution.
Did add some rinse water to solution and saw chloride formimg and now have white powder on bottom, thinking its silver chloride but that seems odd to me (adding water and dropping white chloride)??. (Ph rising)?
Before the water tried a small test batch with salt and again with HCl and nothing happened most likely due to the SMB in solution. 
I'm having a interesting time with this material as its still all very new to me and I do try a few various experiments.

Then in the end when I process my maybe silver pile it should reduce in size when HCl is added and pulls the most likely copper chloride in there.
Think I was just so excited at the first time all metals got processed in my poorman AR mix, never happened before in my couple months I have spent with this proccess.

All in all to everyone its still very amazing to see the manipulations of PM metals in various mediums of certain chemical reactions. 

Thank you Harold and Steve with your words of wisdom a person can learn his lessons needed to push forward, no matter how small you hint to the answer.
I can appreciate that very much. Also noted I have lots to learn and do very much like learning at a slow pace.



lazersteve said:


> In poorman's AR the crystals are more than likely copper chloride or another chloride. Silver nitrate would quickly be converted to the chloride upon formation in AR.
> 
> A simple test would be to dissolve a few of the crystals in water and then add a drop of HCl. If you see a curd like white precipitate that changes to purple in bright lght, it's silver.
> 
> If the crystal won't dissolve in water try HCl. If this works it's likely copper I chloride.
> 
> Steve


----------



## shyknee

don't forget hot water to get the lead chloride out (that's the white stuff that does not turn dark in bright light).


----------



## adam_mizer

Just have to thank all you guys again.
These small tid-bits of info add up to a fine product.

Another small step that was very helpfull in a series of processing.



shyknee said:


> don't forget hot water to get the lead chloride out (that's the white stuff that does not turn dark in bright light).



I'm sorry for writing of my excitements in these processes as it goes to show what I have written above is not totally accurate, you will see the edits as you read.
Hopefully I do not become a high-maintenance person writing and again am very thankfull for Steve and Harold's correctional input to my escapades and maybe others will see these tidbits and benefit from my misunderstandings while processing.


----------



## Harold_V

adam_mizer said:


> I'm sorry for writing of my excitements in these processes as it goes to show what I have written above is not totally accurate, you will see the edits as you read.
> Hopefully I do not become a high-maintenance person writing and again am very thankfull for Steve and Harold's correctional input to my escapades and maybe others will see these tidbits and benefit from my misunderstandings while processing.



One thing to remember---which will put things in better focus in the future. Silver chloride does not dissolve in acids. It does dissolve in ammonium hydroxide, however, so you can use that fact in testing when you may not know what you have at hand. 

The other thing to remember is that you can not have both silver and gold in solution in AR---with the rare exception of miniscule traces of silver that behave like gold. That is well documented. Silver, aside from traces, will precipitate as silver chloride. If you get white growth when an AR solution cools, look to lead or other materials as the source. It won't be silver. If you suspect lead, a small amount of sulfuric acid will precipitate the lead as lead sulfate, which can then be removed in filtration. 

You're doing fine. There's a lot to learn at first, and many of these things are confusing when they're first experienced. It will all make sense in due time. 

Harold


----------



## adam_mizer

Harold, thanks for your help.

I just think this last batch reaction was very odd and maybe you could elaborate some more.

Here's a pic of what I dropped out of the SMB after I got my gold powder.
This pic shows violet color and exposure to light was minimal and a few minutes otherwise the light in my garage is not bright and over 6 feet away is a small flourescent lamp.
I know its not much and if there were another test I could do to it I would.

What bothers me is what is this crystalized chloride (or nitrate) looking material in the beaker?
I can move it and expose it to more light and it may go darker in the purple color but it shows violet here and does go through-out on the exposed area.
It has been rinsed with water many times.
Also from this batch with this material in it I removed my gold powder a few grams and there appears to be more than a few grams of this material easily double that.
I struggled a little with it and when HCl/Cl was used the only way to hold it into solution was to put it on ice, then my gold powder dropped in SMB without this violet material.
The chloride looking stuff is very shiny at all angles the picture does not pick that up.
The material will not go into HCl but will go into HCL/Cl.

The poorman AR was very odd this time and appeared very strong and lasted a long time reacting just like nitric (AR) pic's through-out the forum and or on you-tube.
Super thick brown/red fumes consistantly (so many that they puffed out a constant cloud from the covered coffee pot at the spout opening) and just before they subsided I added about 1tspn sodium nitrate again and again as it maintained a rich reaction.
In the past I never had such thick fume action.
I changed only one thing this time. 200ml water and 250ml HCl, usually its 1 to 1 but I was entertaining myself this time.

EDIT: Add 1 more pic.


----------



## adam_mizer

Thought I would post a picture of my first silver buttons I have melted just to see what would happen, they have not been processed for any cleanliness.

It is sort of interesting to see what came out of some scrap jewelry and old spoons.
The top left and bottom middle piece's are over 2 ounces (top) and 1.75 ounces (bottom middle) of old damaged over 100yrs old sterling spoons.
The bottom left piece near 1 oz was from vintage jewelry that the gold was removed but the left over metal would not go into poormans AR after 3 different attemps.
Bottom right was made from all the garbage filter chlorides collected, then processed with sodium hydroxide and sugar, note posts from above had collected chlorides and nitrates from filters and drops and the stuff I collected was filthy dirty and took over a week before it filtered clear and it still is very dirty. It should have been processed and cleaned but I thought I would make myself a learning process by doing a garbage batch.
Still even though it has a filthy and oxidized layer, it had all the tiny bits of filter garbage including some gold, silver and maybe some other hopefull PM's.

Now very interesting is the top right piece melted from old 100yr+ home-made spoons that had inlaid jade into the upper handle portion. It was hard to tell but I had thought the spoons were a silver base because they were silver colored metal and maybe some other base metal that did not tarnish. The button is very gold and has some other PM in it and it was much harder to melt than the previous silver spoon buttons.

Almost got everything I need for the (LaserSteve) silver cell and will process these buttons and several others I am making, when I pick up a pour mold.

I get pretty excited as I learn more about this stuff and play with it.
Trying to learn about the differences in chloride, nitrate, oxide, is not as easy as it should be in my case.

Thanks again to this forum and its members, next step will be to make some much nicer silver pieces.


----------



## goldenchild

Will you be refining these buttons?


----------



## adam_mizer

goldenchild said:


> Will you be refining these buttons?



Yes I will (process) as its a learning curve how to deal with them.
2 of them are pretty much .925 silver so that should be easy in the silver cell.
The bottom one on the right was sputtering so much, I'm thinking I did not complete its melt as it took a real long time and wanted more temperature but then started sputtering real bad so I stopped. Will try to remelt do you have any suggestions about the sputtering?
Bottom left also took a long time to melt and you can't see it but up close there are pretty shell like cleavages on the surface like its very near pure and could be another metal other than silver.
Top right speaks for itself also not very visable the whole surface is crystal like facets, I do believe its some kind of PM mixed with the gold.
I'm thinking that at least the bottom left piece can be processed in the silver cell and should leave black sludge powders in the bag filter.

I made your nitric recipe modified from LaserSteves and it came out very week for me. However it works well when slightly heated.
Next time I will use more nitrate in the mix and see what happens.
Its great anyway to be able to make the nitric.


----------



## stihl88

You will need to use cemented Silver in your cell as the 925 will fowl the cell with impurities meaning you may not achieve the 999 silver you are after.

Process these buttons in 50/50 Nitric solution then precipitate with copper Bus Bars, wash and rinse the precipitated silver solution several times until you have a clean shiny powder which could be approx 980-990 purity, melt this powder into buttons or whatever shape you like to process finally in your silver cell.


----------



## goldenchild

Honestly... I would digest everything again. Since your silver is very pure I would digest it all again using nitric and give it a super fine filtering. I know people won't like this but I would then use the chloride method. Cementing with copper will contaminate the silver again. If your gold is indeed very pure I would digest in AR and proceed as normal.


----------



## adam_mizer

Thanks guys, I know from inexperience that both methods should eventually be done to get a feel for the manipulation of the base metal and PM's during processing.

Was thinking a little about this last night, Goldenchild hit the nail on the head of what I was pondering maybe using AR.
Since my homemade nitric is on the weak side I could easily make a pretty good AR solution and I did make one more of those gold buttons from the remainder of my material.

For a start will take the 2 gold buttons and digest them and see what becomes of these buttons, but I'm thinking that the gold is not of high purity and is mixed with a decent percentage of other PM. 

Will have to read up on the various AR posts since I sort of got used to poormans method and am not completely familiar with this little bit of difference.


----------



## adam_mizer

Well the gold looking button is not as what was hoped for.
Surely an experience to learn from. Although not completely processed I believe it was made (old spoons) from some alloyed metals.

Not quite sure what the gray powder is in the picture, this powder was the only thing on the bottom of the pot pulled out before I started the evaporation.
There is not much of it and its the only metal that did not go into solution, been cleaned with HCl and was not even bothered with the wash.
The dark emerald green solution completely crystalized after it cooled down, it was pretty solid. Added water and it turned back to liquid.
I'm pulling out what appears to be a lot of copper chloride 1 and saving it.
The solution was tested with stannous and appears to me as a false positive because the first stuff to drop is the copper chloride, the black test disappeared after an hour.
If there is other PM's I don't understand why copper could drop out of the SMB first.
Will continue to play with the SMB solution, turned black when made and now as I'm pulling copper chlorides out it has turned very dark yellow/brown. Strange but it seems to be a bunch of low grade metals were processed.

The silver buttons and a piece of silver dish are processing in my weak nitric beside the evaporated AR.
This is weak nitric as it dies out quickly and stops reacting and does not process much silver. Looks good but is no where near good enough.
It won't produce fumes unless heated, and the reaction is very poor. After some practice with it, seems like it worked best at the heat setting its on. 
I'm making a new batch, with LaserSteve's recipe. 
Hopefully it will be much higher percentage nitric as I used 150gm's more sodium nitrate than last batch, shooting for 750-800ml when finished maybe.


----------



## qst42know

I don't think your homemade nitric acid is weak. Traces of chloride in your nitrate source will put a stop to processing silver.


----------



## adam_mizer

qst42know said:


> I don't think your homemade nitric acid is weak. Traces of chloride in your nitrate source will put a stop to processing silver.



Thats interesting, so I'm wondering if the chloride traces are there because the freezing process was not good enough on this batch.
How else can we get rid of any trace of salt chlorides?

My next batch was maybe too long in the freezer and only yielded about half of expected in liquid form. Maybe this helped the chloride to settle better this time.
Will know better later today.


----------



## adam_mizer

Wow new nitric works way much better than the first batch.

Funny thing I left it in the freezer all night and in the morning I poured it out into its container and it was only about 400ml or so.
It started 500ml + 280ml = 780ml and sodium nitrate.
Somehow I lost a lot of liquid in the overnight freeze.
But notice I am not applying any heat to the vessel at all, it appears to be working very good eating the silver. Maybe 3oz left in the container.

Just had to show this shot, after pouring off the acid I got a call that today was good to visit a claim that is being saved for me to work.
This particular claim has 2 gold bearing creek feeds.


----------



## goldenchild

How dense is the salt left behind? Is it rock hard or like a slurry? If its a slurry you definately have some nitric caught up in the salts. You could vaccum filter it and get what's left. At a 400ml yeild there should be quite a bit left behind. Good news is that if you are able to digest silver your final product is very clean. As qst42know indicated trace amounts of chlorides will not allow for silver digestion. I don't even bother using this formula for silver as it hardly ever works for me. I use it for gold filled or AR. You must be better at it than me 8) Possible video opp?

I forgot
Lazersteve once told me that 1 gram of silver nitrate in the 500ml solution will precipitate out some more of the remaining salts. This is after decanting/filtration.


----------



## adam_mizer

Works better, still its not the right stuff unless it can be distilled further to remove traces of the salts as qst42know suggested those salt chlorides get in the way of the process.

I agree that this type nitric is very good in the AR solution as it was the first time I ever digested all the metal on a single run compared to the poorman method of nitrate additions but there are so many variables.
The salt was hard, if any slurry it was too solid. Actually some of the salt started building up on the sides and making peaks in the vessel I poured it into.
It was completely liquid for quite some time when made (guessing at least 2.5hr's cooling in coffee pot), poured it into 2 vessels and put them both (vessels) into seperate 500-600ml beakers and about midnight I put them into the freezer, the vessels already had salts condensing on bottom. It was cool last night about 50 degree's or less outside.
The freezer is real cold just a little too much on the cold side.

That salt set on my garage counter all day, got home at about 4:30 from the mountains and poured off maybe 15-25ml's more out of it.
The nitric I made has a definate yellow tint to it.
Maybe I'll eventually put the glass together to actually distill it further but for know I'll use it all up on this silver, looks like the silver cell is a ways off before I get some quality nitric.


----------



## goldenchild

adam_mizer said:


> Maybe I'll eventually put the glass together to actually distill it further but for know I'll use it all up on this silver, looks like the silver cell is a ways off before I get some quality nitric.



If by this you mean some sort of distillation apparatus then the method will be much different only using nitrate and H2SO4. No water.


----------



## adam_mizer

goldenchild said:


> adam_mizer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'll eventually put the glass together to actually distill it further but for know I'll use it all up on this silver, looks like the silver cell is a ways off before I get some quality nitric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If by this you mean some sort of distillation apparatus then the method will be much different only using nitrate and H2SO4. No water.
Click to expand...


I'm going to need a decent electrolyte for the cell. I will need 3+oz's of pure silver in solution.
Was thinking about some distillation process, wasn't you that had a video on another process of making a real clean nitric?

Just checked and the silver is still reacting, a couple hours ago I added 50ml more. Total in the vessel with the silver is at the 150ml line. 
Reaction is mild but still happening several hours later (5hrs), light heat had to be applied.


----------



## goldenchild

adam_mizer said:


> I'm going to need a decent electrolyte for the cell. I will need 3+oz's of pure silver in solution.
> Was thinking about some distillation process, wasn't you that had a video on another process of making a real clean nitric?
> 
> Just checked and the silver is still reacting, a couple hours ago I added 50ml more. Total in the vessel with the silver is at the 150ml line.
> Reaction is mild but still happening several hours later (5hrs), light heat had to be applied.



I don't have a video as I've only started distilling a month ago. There are plenty on youtube though. I don't know if you wanna mess with that stuff quite yet. But then again I dont know how handy and able you are with things of that nature. Be careful whatever you do :|


----------



## adam_mizer

Just wanted to add in how this nitric is performing.

The silver quickly developes a chloride coating, it sort can be swished a little and falls off but not completely.
After a while I start applying heat to help the acid along and it developes its fumes, left on low all night and the fumes although very mild are still there which tells me this acid is very workable.
Silver is not very compatable with it. 
The thin piece of silver from the bowl is gone (long time ago) and the thick buttons are not. Thinner the material easier to work in this poorman nitric.


----------



## stihl88

The homemade Nitric might be a bit too strong/concentrated perhaps.
It would be much easier if you can get on to a source of HN03.


----------



## adam_mizer

Tiny buttons!

Just for fun to show the difference that can be done if a tiny button is processed once or twice.

This picture button on left came from some real dirty placer material. Dirty meaning it was made from placer full of sand much smaller than the placer you see.
This reminds me of black hills gold. There is copper in this gold button.

The other button was processed twice from dirty drops of e-scrap.


----------



## adam_mizer

Some more pieces to add.
I'm not to impressed about my pouring ability, these are my first gold pours. 1oz each.
Also did a poor job on the silver about 8oz's.
Did not and should have added borax to them before I poured, sort of rushed myself along thinking it did not matter much. 

Maybe next time I'll do a better job.


----------



## adam_mizer

Back at it for another cool winter season.
My first attemp at flakes did not work as well as expected but nice shot was the outcome.


----------



## samuel-a

Nice work adam_mizer.

Your shots looks fine to me...
And the gold seems pure.


----------



## Geo

very nice.the forum loves pictures. 8) keep up the good work. :mrgreen:


----------



## Harold_V

adam_mizer said:


> nice shot was the outcome.


You got that right. It looks very good. 

Harold


----------



## adam_mizer

Thanks I appreciate the comments.
This time I think I'm really near 99.7% basing it on a recent assay of my other gold.
Stepped up the process this time with a double boil in slightly deluted Hcl and a splash of sulphuric after a couple hcl washes and rinses.
Actually 2nd time Hcl was not deluted enough and drew some gold up, recovered that tiny amount.
I can see that the process works better with additional washes/rinses.
On top of that clean dishes, torch tips. Even the purity of distilled water is negligable with certain parts per million of contaminations.


----------



## adam_mizer

I'm beginning to like this making shot poured product.
Sometimes it appears to resemble nuggets flakes and pretty clusters.


----------



## adam_mizer

Well here's my first PGM mix with silver from jewelry.
I melted 21g silver with PGM last week removed from vintage gold jewelry mix (gold and white gold colored).
This week I had 18 gram dried powder kind of thinking it was pretty much the same type mix as last week.
Tossed in the 21 gram button with the 18gram dried powder.
Ended up with 31.5gram after an ordeal of torching.
I never torched so hard in my life to melt something.
Kept turning it up, 5-10 minutes later turning up again and then again until I got a melt.
You could see red hot then white hot, then the white hots are bouncing around in there and finally after cranking the torch that 18 gram melted in with the 21 gram button hopefully.
There maybe a gram left in the crucible or more that didn't quite melt.
Funny why I have a button of 31.5 gram.
EDIT: Just looked in the deep little crucible and saw a whole bunch not quite melted up and a few more chunks melted and stuck to the crucible. There's some of the missing stuff.
Wonder if any of the silver got smoked?
There is no way 8 grams went up in smoke.
Is this normal for melting PGM?
Is platinum tougher than palladium to melt? (Also I guess there could be other PGM's in the vintage stuff and white gold).


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## jimdoc

You need to be careful melting palladium and platinum. You need the proper goggles to protect your eyes. And yes platinum is harder to melt than palladium, its the higher melting point.
Jim

Added this:
When soldering small jewelry pieces for a short time, use #5 gas-welding glasses. These goggles are sufficient for most repair work. When welding for longer periods of time, use #6 goggles. When casting platinum, use #10 or even # 11 electric welding goggles; their filtering lenses also protect against harmful infrared radiation generated by the high temperature flames. Never use sunglasses to protect yourself against the rays and white light. Even the darkest sunglasses offer very little infrared protection against the image of a concentrated oxy-gas flame.

from here;
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/fearless-platinum-repairs.htm


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## adam_mizer

I have number 10 lenses, and hate them but they are neccessary sometimes.
Looking for number 5-7 to test out.
Maybe get a battery powered polarized face shield sometime when I can afford it.

Thanks for the eye safety Jim as these are things that need to be repeated often for everybody.


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## adam_mizer

1 ounce bar.

Somehow I just can't seem to pour what I'd like.
There's something I'm not doing and I can't figure this out, can't get all 4 corners and a rectangle bar.
Is it the mold? Not enough heat somewhere?

After wiping this with a tissue, is there a way to polish out the little scratches?


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## Geo

it looks like the melt isnt hot enough. did you heat the mold? get the melt hotter and set the melting dish on top of the mold as this will help heat the mold.


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## adam_mizer

I agree I'm thinking heat also.
The gold is rolling around in the crucable as I take up all the tiny ball specs and I'm heating right to the pour spout making it all red hot.
The mold was preheated a few minutes before I poured the gold.
The oil I used in the mold was starting to steam off a tiny bit on my preheat. (Is this correct?).

Don't know how to get any hotter.
Should I torch the gold with a more powerfull flame?

Are you suggesting as I melt the gold let the crucable sit on top of the mold?


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## Oz

You did not show a side view, but part of the problem may be just a lack of gold to properly fill your mold cavity. Molten gold has a rather high surface tension. Look at how tall the curvature is on a gold button cast in a rather flat melting dish.


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## adam_mizer

The bar is near 1/4" thick at highest to lowest point.
Look at the bottom.
It is all ready cooled off into metal before the top. It seems to be a heat issue.
At the longest point it looks like the bar is approx 1.25" and the width maybe .75".
The cast iron mold was supposed to be 1 ounce on the bottom segment, that I sanded and sand blasted a little to get the metal on the mold more flat and less pouress looking.
Its one of those 1-5 ounce molds with steps in it.


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## Oz

Yes you have a heat issue. Either the pour temperature or mold temperature, but I still think you are a bit shy on metal to fill your mold cavity based on the pictures. Then again, I could be wrong.


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## Harold_V

Abandon the use of oil for the mold, for starters. Use a smoky acetylene torch, or if you don't have one at your disposal, use a candle. Smoke the cavity well, then preheat until the mold is quite hot, although not hot enough to ignite the carbon coating. Heat your gold well, then pour rapidly. It helps to play the torch on the gold after it's poured so it solidifies without pulling a deep pipe. Pull back with the torch so it only slows freezing. Do not attempt to keep the gold molten. 

Oz may be right, although if the ingot truly has a section that's ¼" thick, I fully expect you have enough gold. In principle, there's no doubt, it's impossible to pour a thin ingot. It is for that reason I had molds that were sized in small steps. 

Harold


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## adam_mizer

Okay!
Now you guys have given me some good ideas to try.
Oil out, soot up the mold and heat well not to burn up the carbon coat. Will try that this evening.
Yes I torch the gold and maintain a good molten round puddle. 
Clean up the sides of the crucable rolling it around to get the small tiny tiny beads, the crucable maintains red hot under the gold and a little extended and I work to the spout making sure the crucable is red hot.
Yes I pour steadily and rapidly, no hesitation.
I will play the torch on the poured gold a little now and pull it back so its a slow cool.
Maybe its not quite 1/4" but its 3/16" forsure and all the edges are circular. You can see I'm just missing that last corner and the bottom is too bubbly looking because it cools so quickly.

When I pour, I have been pouring only straight down in one spot just over the mold. 
Should I try to pour moving the pour along the mold?


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## Geo

if the melt is hot enough and the mold is hot, i don't think moving will help and may even hinder the pour.just concentrate on hot mold and hot pour. i pour on the heat when i pour, i use a reducing flame (less oxy,more fuel).the bead will be beyond yellow hot approaching white.with a torch its not hard to get the heat you need.once you get a large enough sample, melt and pour it a few dozen times for practice until you get the motion memorized.one more thing, try to pour in the middle of the cavity.that might help.


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## Harold_V

adam_mizer said:


> Maybe its not quite 1/4" but its 3/16" forsure and all the edges are circular.


All bets are off if it's not ¼", as you very well may be trying to pour to a cavity that is too large. I no longer have my molds, so I can't tell you the physical size, but it was just large enough to pour a full one ounce ingot. 



> You can see I'm just missing that last corner and the bottom is too bubbly looking because it cools so quickly.


It's also obvious where you poured that sample---which is why I suggested you lose the oil trick. 

Know that pouring a good looking ingot is not easy. I never mastered the process, although one of the readers, some time ago, posted some pictures that were very, very nice. Can't recall who it was, but he's the guy that should be talking to you about this subject. He figured out what I never did. 

Harold


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## jack_burton

Kadriver has some nice looking bars. Has some videos on the Tube as well, do a search for him in the gallery here.


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## Harold_V

jack_burton said:


> Kadriver has some nice looking bars. Has some videos on the Tube as well, do a search for him in the gallery here.


Thanks. It was Kadriver that I had thought of. Mental lapse, the result of my advancing years, no doubt! 

Harold


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## adam_mizer

Will check out kadrivers stuff thanks guys.
Maybe by the end of the weekend I'll have another ounce ready.
Last week I just poured the last ounce into shot form.

That cast iron mold might just be too much mold for the 1 ounce bar, the lowest level is 1 ounce and then the next level is 2 or so ounce and the total mold was supposed to be 5 ounce. It just might be wrong for me.
However I will try once more and get the heat on it better this time. Thats probably most of my problem along with the oil in mold.


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## Smack

Just spent some time looking for info on how soon to pour your molten metal after it has all turned molten. Thought I saved a bookmark but can't find it. I know from memory that aluminum is best poured 3 minutes after it has all turned molten, but the rest of the metals I can't remember and it may not have had precious metals in the list.


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## kadriver

Hello:

I guess I just got lucky with pouring ingots - right off the bat.

I use a graphite mold with four cavities all "calibrated" for gold weights:

1 ozt
2ozt
5ozt
10oz

I put a mapp gas torch on the cavity I want to pour for about 5 minutes or longer before I start to melt the metal. I keep the torch on the mold cavity until I am ready to pour.

I take the torch off the mold about 20 or 30 seconds before I actually pour the molten metal into the mold. This allows it to cool a bit and prevent gassing of the graphite (so I have read).

I think someone mentioned that the mold will out-gas if it is too hot and the metal poured in right away. If the mold is too hot, then bubbles may appear in the bottom of the ingot.

I don't have any experience with metal molds - can't be of any help there.

Here is a bar I poured tonight weighing 1.72 troy ounces.

kadriver


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## lazersteve

I would suggest sooting the graphite or metal mold with acetylene before pouring for the smoothest finish.

Pulling the torch away to around 8" just after the pour is complete will prevent the deep rings from forming in the top and make more of a crystal appearance to the top of the bars.

Here's a shot of the bottom of a 5 oz bar that has been poured into a sooted graphite mold:







and the top of the same bar:






The pictures don't do the gold justice, I'll use my regular camera instead of my phone to post some better ones later. The bottom of the bar is literally a mirror.


Steve


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## lazersteve

Here's some better photos of the same bar:

The bottom right out of the mold:






and the top of the same bar:






Steve


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## kadriver

Very nice. This bar makes mine look pitiful!

I must start smoking my molds with soot.

Is that bar from a metal mold, or a graphite mold.

kadriver


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## lazersteve

Don't kid yourself, your bars look absolutely great!

I use the same type of mold you do, a multi-sized graphite mold.

I keep mine clean, dry, and lightly sanded after each use. I use emery cloth to clean the mold after each use. 400+ grit sand paper will also do well. Be sure not to gouge the inside surfaces of the mold when cleaning. Smooth, even, continous strokes of the cloth around the cavity floor and walls. 

Keep borax and other fluxes away from the graphite mold as these can get in/on your bars if you are not careful.

Sooting a mold and preheating are the key to a smooth finish. 

I've seen better bars from presses and machines, but not many this smooth cast free hand with a torch. Note the bar has never been polished in any way. It came out of the mold that shiney.

Steve


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## adam_mizer

Maybe its getting just a little better.

Bottom is better but has a large pocket but much more smooth surface to it.
I preheated, actually the wife was heating the mold after I sooted it.
Poured in one easy motion.
It appeared that it would be good as I backed off the torch.
Maybe I backed off to fast and maybe just a tiny bit more heat would help. 
1.83oz.
EDIT (Thats 1.67+ troy or 52+grams).


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## cnbarr

I just got my first graphite mold over the weekend, so I worked like a dog too get some gold to pour in it. So here they are, the big one is 34.11g and the small one is 16.15g, any critique or thoughts on improvement are more then welcomed.

Thank you everyone, I could not have done without all of you.    

Chris


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## Geo

i wouldnt change a thing. they look great. a job well done, good color and shine. 

congrats.


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## taffaej

Very nice, I can't wait to get to that point in my process


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## cnbarr

Hey thanks Geo, I tried very hard to follow Harolds' washing procedure, and Steve's methods for sooting and pouring in a mold. It also helped in pouring, having one of Steve's fused silica melting dish with the pour spout. Oh and thanks Steve for getting that out to me so quick.  



taffaej said:


> Very nice, I can't wait to get to that point in my process



It was exciting for sure, I had my wife help by holding a torch on the mold for me. 

Just to emphasize a little, read Hoke 10x's, use the search box, everything is right here in the best place on the internet, GRF. 

Thanks everyone'
Chris


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## glondor

NIce job Cnbarr. Gold looks good and the 6 sided mold is cool!


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## cnbarr

glondor said:


> NIce job Cnbarr. Gold looks good and the 6 sided mold is cool!



Thank you sir, the mold is a 2 in 1 mold it has a 1oz and 1/2oz cavity. I was searching for a place to by a mold and came a little site that has a wide variety molds and pouring equipment, you can also order custom milled mold, which I thought was cool. I am going to order one I'll let everyone know how it works out.

Here is the link http://stores.channeladvisor.com/MakeYourOwnGoldBars/


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## adam_mizer

Wow, looks great!
If thats just for starters your way ahead of the game.


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## Rockman

I have a 1 grain mold that has 15 1 grain mold on a graphite mold. I heated the gold and tried to melt the small beads on top of the molds. The gold just keeps rolling off. I am using Oxy Acet torch. What do I need to do to get the gold to flow into the shape of the molds and not just roll out and back together into a button? 

This is a graphite mold and OA torch that I am using to try and pour 15 1 grain gold bars. This is my first attempt and I am new at this. What do I need to do differently?


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## qst42know

One grain bars have been discussed before. Molten gold wants to be spherical. It won't lay flat for you or anyone else. Whoever designed a one grain mold never poured a drop.


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## Rockman

After several attempts at forcing round gold into a square mold I came to conclusion that short of using a press it would not work. Time to order a round mold. Is there a good source that has a 1 grain and 5 grain mold or 1 & 5 gram mold in graphite or otherwise?


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## Geo

from what i understand about it, the one grain bars are just punched out of a sheet.i imagine a drum roller type die.the sheet rolls through and the drum cuts the individual pieces maybe 10 to 20 at a time. the investment needed to calibrate the machines to first roll out the sheets (which would be the easy part) then have the drum crafted so that each piece weighs exactly the same, 1 grain. pouring a 1 grain bar is impossible unless perhaps you use a closed mold. even then, conformity would be a problem. the sprue would have to be cut and trimmed and each piece weighed and adjusted.


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## qst42know

Round shot can be pressed into coin like disks with a small arbor press, or rolled sheet sheared to size.

Pouring single grain gold is a losing battle.


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