# HOW MUCH ACID SHOULD I USE??!



## rogersdt93 (Oct 27, 2014)

Alright, so here's the story.
Ive been in the Jewelry, Diamond & Cash for gold business since about 2007 and ive been talking and talking and talking for YEARS about refining my own gold because im getting ripped at all the refinery ive been using. 
Ill bring in nice clean 14K scrap.... no clasps, no stones, all cleaned up.... and they will melt it and test it with the XRF and and on my final Invoice with the check... it will say I lost about 4 grams of melt loss and the the final gold content read by the XRF was 51.878% or like 52.93% gold purity or something stupid like that. Ive figured I lose about $400 every time i send my gold off. and that's 3 times a week.... you do the math. Needless to say, they are crooks. ANYWAY, in order to avoid getting ripped, ive decided to refine my own scrap.

So here in lies the questions.... 

Ive been using the inquartering process. and What i really need to know is.... exactly how much acids should I be using to refine this gold.
EXAMPLE: 100g of 14K scrap. to inquarter ill add 133g of sterling silver. Grand total of 233g of 6K gold with an estimated 58.33g of .9999Au and 123g of .9999Ag
In the nitric Leaching step.... How many Ml of Nitric should I use and in the Aqua Regia step... how many Ml of Hydrochloric should I be using.


Please help ANNNDDDD.... THANK YOU in advance


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## Geo (Oct 27, 2014)

Aqua regia in not needed in the inquarting process.


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## butcher (Oct 28, 2014)

My answer to this question and the next big batch of questions you will have, is to read Hoke's book and search the forum, you will get a better answer to this question, and with some study you can find the best answer to any of your future questions, many of which may keep you from making many mistakes and loosing your gold and your money...

You will need to part the silver and copper from your gold before using aqua regia...

I also suppose you do know 14 k gold is actually more likely to be just 13.5 K.

From reading Hoke's book you will find she states it takes about, 4 fluid ounces of HCl and about 1 fluid ounce of HNO3 to dissolve a troy ounce of gold (31.103 grams).
From this we can figure how much acid we may need for any amount of gold, doing the math with this figure we see that it takes approximately:
About 118ml HCl and 29.5ml HNO3 per troy ounce of gold. 
or
About 3.8ml HCL and 0.95ml HNO3 to dissolve a gram of gold.

These are just starting figures, depending on the process you use, and how you use It, you may be able to get by without using this much acid.

Now for your next question about how much nitric is needed to dissolve the silver from your gold in the parting step, you can easily find the answer to that question with a little bit of study, I wont bore you with the facts now, as that would be just cheating you out of a good education, you will be getting from searching for your own answers (where you will find a ton of very valuable information).


Like in mining for gold you have to dig a little for the answers to be well rewarded, you never know what that gold mine holds until you put a little work into it.
Dig into Hoke's book, and the forum, and find those treasures, these are both rich in extremely valuable information you are missing, if you do not dig into it...

Without spending time studying you will likely just have nothing but problems. Study is like a preventive measure, to help you gain an understanding, so that you can recover and refine your material without having to experience most of these problems yourself. The education you will find invaluable in many aspects of this business of dealing with gold and other valuable metals.


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## MarcoP (Oct 28, 2014)

Hi rogerstd93, as butcher said the assay seems to be correct, nothing dishonest in it.

I would also add, not trying to back moderating here, that words capitalization in forums is intended as shouting and the meaning of it is embraced world wide. Please don't shout, I've got head ache today


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## 4metals (Oct 28, 2014)

Do you lose $400 each trip to the refiner or does the $400 include the refining fees? How many (average) ounces are you bringing to the refiner each trip?

Often small gold buyers like yourself do not realize that even after you refine the gold you have to have a market for it. Lets assume here you follow the instructions learned here on the forum to a "T" and get gold of .9995 fineness. Do you have a source to sell all of that gold for spot? Because if you have to sell it, even to a prime refiner (which means you are moving quantity) you will likely be charged at least 1/4 of 1%. smaller lots get charged more. 

If you are really interested we can use the forum to determine exactly how much you are spending for services and how much you are losing. It costs more than you may think to set up a proper, legal, refinery with melt capacity and environmental compliance, get back to us with actual numbers and I can tell you exactly what you will spend to set this up properly and I will bet that after you do all of the math, you opt to continue to ship your metal to a refiner. 

If it were me, I would put in a melt furnace and a small assay capability and go into the refiner knowing the exact value.


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## Geo (Oct 28, 2014)

Since physical gold brings a premium, You can pour a bar as big as you can and pay to have it assayed and then sell it on Ebay where you can produce the assay for more than spot price. Of course you will have to make sure that the "more than spot price" covers the assay and shipping. At least you will get spot for the gold.


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 28, 2014)

Geo said:


> Of course you will have to make sure that the "more than spot price" covers the assay and shipping. At least you will get spot for the gold.


Don't forget the eBay and PayPal fees!

Dave


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## 4metals (Oct 28, 2014)

Depending on the bar size, fire assaying and eBay fees and shipping will likely add a hefty premium. I can buy kilo bars from a prime refiner for $1 to $1.50 per ounce over spot. These are stamped recognized bars, not something home made from Willy the gold buyer! An assay for purity is not your classic simple fire assay, it involves instrument analysis, usually ICP, and calculating gold by difference. A costly analysis. Better off casting a bar and if it cleaves from the purity showing the crystal structure, assume .999 and price it accordingly. 

Don't forget that most gold buyers need to turn around their cash quickly, why else would you sell 3 times a week. They are not financed well enough to speculate for too long. Casting bars and sitting on inventory puts you in an entirely different business model.....holding inventory. Plus not many will pay spot for a bar on eBay from an unknown refiner without any recognized credentials. Remember when the market moves up and down as quickly as it does today, refiners need an ability to hedge, you can't hedge with bars sitting on your shelf waiting to be sold unless you want to get into the futures market. And the way that is going these days you may be better off making a trip to Vegas. 

There is a lot to be said for settling and walking away with your money on the day you go to the refiner. It comes at a cost. That is what you have to weigh. But don't forget refiners need to make a profit too and they have associated costs, it all figures into the picture. 

Lets see if Rodgers comes back with some numbers about sizes of each melt so we can see what percentage his melt loss is, melt losses are typical in karat, even with clean karat. The zinc in the alloy tends to burn off at the gold melt temperature, that is a problem jewelry casters have when re-using melted alloy to re-cast. The final weight of the bar is not the question, the final gold content is.


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## kurtak (Oct 29, 2014)

rodgerstd93

you are looking at & therefore expecting a perfect world --- 14k gold (in a perfect world) would be .583 gold & so that is what you are expecting to be paid on & when you don't get paid at least very close to that you feel you are being ripped off & I understand that

However there are a number of factors that play into this that make it a not so perfect world

(1) jewelers are allowed a tolerance for their jewelry to be a bit under the karat it is stamped & I believe that tolerance is as much as a half karat under stamp value so 14k to start with can actually be as low as 13.5k & still be marked 14k

(2) then they are allowed another under karat tolerance for any solder used in making the piece (stone setting prongs & other solder joints) & I believe that is another half karat so the solder could be as low as 13k - this (depending on solder used I making the piece) is going to reduce the "actual" karat even more in the melt

(3) then there is the possibility that some of the jewelry has had repair's done to it & here it is anybody's guess what was used to make the repair - including base metals used for the repair --- as an example - I once got a ring in that was unmarked - a drop of straight nitric showed that it in fact was a karat gold ring but a 10k acid scratch test showed it was under 10k - because it tested under 10k I put it in a beaker & boiled it in nitric to leach out the base metals - when it was done leaching the base metals out - the ring (which was now just the gold) had retained it's starting shape (it was a large mans ring) except for about a 1/4 inch gap on the underside off the ring --- that gap is were the ring had been cut & a piece of base metal soldered in to over size the ring & then the ring was gold plated to hide the oversize repair as I also had the gold plating foil from the repair sitting in the bottom of my beaker --- so again a few piece's that have been repaired in the lot can & will further reduce the marked karat

(4) then there is the "actual" melt loss - this is an actual loss that takes place in the melt due to very, very, very small beads of gold that hang up in the crucible during the melt & though this accounts for a very, very small amount of the weight you sent in - as the refiner I can't account to you for it because there is no way for me to determine how much was lost here & how much was lost due the above factors --- also - some karat gold alloys have a very small amounts of zinc used in them & this actually burns off in the melt - so again some loss in the actual melt

These are all real factors that make the difference between what you think you should get back in the perfect world & what you get in return in the actual world

the local buyer I deal with (I both sell to him & get stuff from him to process) knows he is going to have a melt loss due to all of the above factors so he factors that in when he buys - he has been at it for 20 plus years & has been dealing with the same two refineries for many of those years & because he understands the above melt loss factors & his returns are consistent as a result of those factors he factors it in when buying --- the refineries he has dropped over the years are the ones that where not consistent in their return of metal lots sent in

Kurt


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## Palladium (Oct 29, 2014)

Kurt and 4metals said it best! You should not assume your profit when you sell something. Your profit should be assumed when you buy something. You're getting to the end to find out that you have lost money somewhere in your process of a to b. You need to assume those loses in the forefront and adjust your payout percentages down to reflect that loss so if it happens isn't no big deal and if it don't happen then that's an added plus. It's all part of doing business!


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## rogersdt93 (Oct 29, 2014)

MarcoP said:


> Hi rogerstd93, as butcher said the assay seems to be correct, nothing dishonest in it.
> 
> I would also add, not trying to back moderating here, that words capitalization in forums is intended as shouting and the meaning of it is embraced world wide. Please don't shout, I've got head ache today




IM SORRY.


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## rogersdt93 (Oct 29, 2014)

4metals said:


> Do you lose $400 each trip to the refiner or does the $400 include the refining fees? How many (average) ounces are you bringing to the refiner each trip?
> 
> Often small gold buyers like yourself do not realize that even after you refine the gold you have to have a market for it. Lets assume here you follow the instructions learned here on the forum to a "T" and get gold of .9995 fineness. Do you have a source to sell all of that gold for spot? Because if you have to sell it, even to a prime refiner (which means you are moving quantity) you will likely be charged at least 1/4 of 1%. smaller lots get charged more.
> 
> ...



Sadly, I'm not a small Gold buyer. I sell about 30ozt of scrap 3 times a week. On average that's about 45ozt pure once a week. I sell to multiple "prime" refiners. and after the fees and they % they take anyway.... im losing $1200 a week. Yes, i have a source to sell the pure to... all those refineries will buy pure gold as well. They just can Assay shave pure gold. so $65,000 a year I'm losing times... lets say 4 years. $260k....would it really cost more than that to set up a small refinery in my garage or in one of my stores? i doubt it. But anyway, thank you for being no help at all and not answering my questions and trolling.


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## rogersdt93 (Oct 29, 2014)

kurtak said:


> rodgerstd93
> 
> you are looking at & therefore expecting a perfect world --- 14k gold (in a perfect world) would be .583 gold & so that is what you are expecting to be paid on & when you don't get paid at least very close to that you feel you are being ripped off & I understand that
> 
> ...



Kurt, I know all of this.
That is why ive taken a pre melted bar of "CLEAN" 14K.... so that is 14 K that hasn't been repaired, ive cut off all the solder filled tops. stuff like mens wedding bands and ring bands with no tops and solid Figaro chains with no clasps & no closures (the end pieces that are usually soldered on.) With that said.... between all that prep and the pre melting....that avoids all other factors other than the instance of the karat being low... maybe as low as 13k.... but in reality... that is only true about 10% of the time... 14k jewelry is 14k 90% of the time. so VERY WORST CASE.... 10% of the time... i should be getting assays around 54.1666% (13K)...thats the very very very worst case.... that doesn not explain my test 14k assays being 51%Au....100% of the time.... its called assay shaving... it happens. FACT... anyway... thank you for being no help and not answering any of my actual questions.


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## rogersdt93 (Oct 29, 2014)

Palladium said:


> Kurt and 4metals said it best! You should not assume your profit when you sell something. Your profit should be assumed when you buy something. You're getting to the end to find out that you have lost money somewhere in your process of a to b. You need to assume those loses in the forefront and adjust your payout percentages down to reflect that loss so if it happens isn't no big deal and if it don't happen then that's an added plus. It's all part of doing business!





Yeah...NO. 

when you're leaking $65k a year... you find the leak and repair it. I sure hope you don't decide to try your hand in business because you'll either fail or not do well at all. 
Anyway... thank you again for being no help and not answering any of my actual questions.


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## rogersdt93 (Oct 29, 2014)

butcher said:


> My answer to this question and the next big batch of questions you will have, is to read Hoke's book and search the forum, you will get a better answer to this question, and with some study you can find the best answer to any of your future questions, many of which may keep you from making many mistakes and loosing your gold and your money...
> 
> You will need to part the silver and copper from your gold before using aqua regia...
> 
> ...




Ive been looking and reading around a lot....ive found some stuff that i needed to know and couldn't find other stuff i wanted to know. Buy hey, its a forum, youre supposed to ask questions. if noone asked questions... the forum would suck. but you did offer some good advice and answered my questions and I do appreciate that. and I do intend to keep reading and learning. so Thank you.


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 29, 2014)

Nice attitude. People spend their time to try to help you, and you insult them. Better read fast! I suspect you won't be a member much longer.

Dave

By the way, I'll save you some time in replying. I know I haven't helped at all because I didn't answer your questions.


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## Palladium (Oct 29, 2014)

Lol. Now that's funny. 4metals is one of the leading men in the world on refining and you just kicked it to the curb.
I'm Out!


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## Palladium (Oct 29, 2014)

And for you're information i eat 45 oz for breakfast before you get up every morning to get my day started! Seems my profit margins in business can't be to bad. I'm not the one asking questions. Good luck brother!


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## 4metals (Oct 29, 2014)

> Sadly, I'm not a small Gold buyer. I sell about 30ozt of scrap 3 times a week. On average that's about 45ozt pure once a week.



Sorry to break your bubble dude but you may think you are not a small gold buyer but in reality you are a mere pimple on a frogs ass! 

I really live to troll for wanna be refiners of your size, and I thank you for pointing that out to me. 

If you took the time to dig a little deeper or to answer some of the questions you would see this forum has enabled people like yourself, and larger, to get started doing exactly what you asked to do. But obviously you have little time for that, you are busy buying all of that gold!


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## kurtak (Oct 29, 2014)

rodgersdt93

:shock: WOW --- after all those "flaming" responses to the members here that were trying to help you I hope you don't really expect any more help in the future

speaking of future - I have a feeling yours here is going to be short lived

good luck with your future quest & hope you find what your looking for

Kurt


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## Harold_V (Oct 29, 2014)

rogersdt93 said:


> MarcoP said:
> 
> 
> > Hi rogerstd93, as butcher said the assay seems to be correct, nothing dishonest in it.
> ...


You are now, as you have been banned from the board for being a jerk. 

Harold


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## Smack (Oct 29, 2014)

MarcoP said:


> I would also add, not trying to back moderating here, that words capitalization in forums is intended as shouting and the meaning of it is embraced world wide. Please don't shout, I've got head ache today



Not embraced by all.


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## GotTheBug (Oct 29, 2014)

Harold's reward... 

http://dev.bukkit.org/media/images/33/412/banhammer.png


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## 4metals (Oct 29, 2014)

I think I'm done answering basic questions to new members who haven't been here for a while. True, I didn't answer his question but if he had to ask about how much acid to use who knows how bad he would screw up the rest. 

I guess he figures he is entitled to charge his rate to buy from the public but a refiner isn't entitled to charge him. The refiner did 3 melts a week for this guy, had to deal with what I am pretty sure is a wonderful personality, and had to pay on the spot for the metal. All for 2%. That's without all of the profit the refiner makes from the 0.4% melt loss!

I don't see many refiners paying better than that for lots of 30 gross ounces incoming. Even if the guy thinks he is a big player!


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## Palladium (Oct 29, 2014)

4metals said:


> I think I'm done answering basic questions to new members who haven't been here for a while. True, I didn't answer his question but if he had to ask about how much acid to use who knows how bad he would screw up the rest.



It does get discouraging! I have a motto that i go by when i'm confronted with stupidity. 
Don't let the actions of others dictate the type of person you are. 
Sometimes i forget that because even though you can't fix stupid, you can sure slap the **** out of it. :mrgreen:


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## Shark (Oct 29, 2014)

Palladium said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'm done answering basic questions to new members who haven't been here for a while. True, I didn't answer his question but if he had to ask about how much acid to use who knows how bad he would screw up the rest.
> ...



Another keyboard headed for the scrap pile, I just spit my drink all over the place, :lol:


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## Palladium (Oct 29, 2014)

It's a southern thing. 8) 
I always try to be a gentleman to people and be respectful even when they refuse to be. If you find fault with something i say then we can agree to disagree as long as we do it as gentlemen. The moment you fail to respect me or get all ghetto on me is the moment the rules no longer apply. Two things happen when you slap a man. Either he is going to get some understanding real quick! or he's going to fight. Either which way win, lose, or draw your going to find some respect. To may people want to want to shoot or stab you now a days. I'm kind of old school in the fact we can roll around in the dirt and work it out and later on have a beer or go fishing. You want to be a man, be a man!


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## 4metals (Oct 30, 2014)

The real shame of it is that this could have been a thread that members could have gotten a lot out of. If this guy spoke honestly about his charges and approached this with an open mind he could see where he sits in terms of profitability.

I would have told him what he needs equipment wise and the cost, environmental compliance wise and the cost, and more importantly he would have known what to expect from his own melt losses and realized how karat really runs. 

Truth be told, his refiners not getting rich off of him and he can't afford to put out more than 20K without getting money from his refiner. But he's not a small gold buyer, he said so! 

And I'm a troll, good to know that.


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## Palladium (Oct 30, 2014)

The sad part is that you're the type of person who not only helps people on this forum but in real life. If you're like me you spend hours on the phone sometimes during the day. I have clients and even people i meet on youtube or through a contact that will call me up and chat my ear off. Most times i don't mind because i like to talk and meet new people anyway. I dispense information freely in hopes that #1 it may bring me future profit in the form of some payoff or #2 that even if i don't profit from it then i have help educate a person and my time was not wasted, but well spent. I get satisfaction from both! You can't help them all brother. I don't know about the rest of these folks, but you'll get nothing but admiration and respect from this old boy!

Hence :arrow: Don't let the actions of other dictate the person you are.


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## Shark (Oct 30, 2014)

I have never been at the top of refining, and surely not on a large scale. I am just a hobbyist that just enjoys the overall experiences of it. I had started out reading the thread thinking this would have been a nice thread with some very interesting insight into how people operate at that scale in the gold business. I saw it as a chance to learn some of the inside dealings of the overall scheme. What I can never seem to grasp is why people think everyone owes them something. My Grandmother used tell us as kids "You can catch more flies with honey than you can vinegar". A little humility never hurt much either. I was shocked when it all seemed to fly apart so quick. Especially after the reply from 4metals, I got comfortable for some serious reading, and 'BOOM", I had to go back and read it again to see if I had missed something. There are people I can seem to learn from very easily, others I have to put more effort into understanding what they are trying to teach me, and a few that I just do not have the education to understand, yet. Palladium, 4metals, butcher and a few others just say things in a way I understand, at least in a way that makes sense to me. If I can understand it, ............. let's just say it don't get much easier to understand. Don't let one bad apple spoil it for those who are new and really are trying to learn. There is still a lot of knowledge I need to gain from the forum, and those who have "been there, done that".


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## Palladium (Oct 30, 2014)

Got to watch out for them trolls ! :twisted: 

Besides, who am i to argue with Einstein?

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. Albert Einstein


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## bswartzwelder (Oct 30, 2014)

Well DANG. Here I thought I was one of the biggest refiners here. Been here for several years and have over 1 ounce troy all ready to be melted and poured into my mold. Boy, you guys really know how to deflate someone balloon. 

Truth be told, I wouldn't be where I am today without you guys. You're the greatest. THANKS!


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## Anonymous (Oct 30, 2014)

Woah that thread was priceless- especially read all at once from start to finish.

Way to hand someone their own butt guys.

Nice work. 8) 8)


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## kurtak (Oct 30, 2014)

I just hope he has moved on to an anger management discussion forum :twisted: he needs a whole lot more help with that :lol: 

Kurt


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## kmann1969 (Nov 4, 2014)

Wow...if he was such a huge gold buyer sending that much gold, he should have invested in a xrf, a small furnace, melted his gold down into a homogenous bar and xrayed it and shipped it off..if his refinery results are way off then he would know... that's what I do. its always spot on now...


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## jason_recliner (Nov 4, 2014)

Palladium said:


> Got to watch out for them trolls ! :twisted:
> 
> Besides, who am i to argue with Einstein?
> 
> The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. Albert Einstein


 :lol: 
I believe it was he who also said something along the lines of "Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former."


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