# Home Made Safe ?



## Noxx (Jul 20, 2009)

Hey Guys (and gals),

A friend of mine and I are building a safe for my business (storing all the gold and diamonds) and one for him.

We are still in the designing phase but we already bought a few things:

- 346 pounds of steel (my safe will be 2' x 1' x 1' where his will be 1' x 1' x 1') 

It's steel plates, 1/2'' thick.

$85 CAD in a scrap yard ($75 US)

It was quite a challenge to pack that steel in my civic lol 

- Two LaGard group II combination locks

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=380135673983

We will keep you updated on how the building goes.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 20, 2009)

hehe you remind me my good friend... when he needs something, he opt to buil it himself...


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## Noxx (Jul 20, 2009)

I always consider that option first in order to save some money


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## jimdoc (Jul 20, 2009)

Noxx,
With those sizes don't forget to design how to
fasten it securely so it doesn't walk away. You
would be surprised how many safes get stolen.
I read once that some crooks got caught with
a safe they stole from a church, they rented
torches to open it, that is what got them caught.
The safe was empty, or maybe there was one
penny in there. 
Jim


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## Noxx (Jul 20, 2009)

It will weigh more than 100 pounds and will be screwed in concrete (floor).


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## Palladium (Jul 20, 2009)

Not to discourage you but, Huuuummmmm.

Harold, your a machinist. I know from experience that working with that thickness of material is not easy, even when you have the proper tools and equipment.

What does your plan or blue prints include at this point Noxx. Just trying to give you an idea of what it takes to weld up a safe. Then you have to have the locking system down pat. I think the unit you saw on eBay is only the control mechanism of the lock. You still need the actual locking mechanism it's self. Then you have to mount it which will require holes set on a pattern. Considering that is 1 in steel you just can't drill holes all the way thru it and bolt it up from the outside because all someone would have to do is grind the heads of the bolts and the lock would fall off. So it will have to be drilled and tapped out ( threaded ) Then you have to have a hinge system for the door to mount to. Holes thru the bottom so you can mount it to the floor. If the metal is not perfectly flat it will have to be milled to get a tight fit for the door seal. Plus welding and grinding all your seams. Cutting the original 1 in plate with a torch will leave a rough edge that will have to be ground smooth. When i use to have my steel package made for my furnaces i outsourced it to a company down the road who cut my steel with a cnc Plasma Cutter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6vzES81Clk That's the way to go.

Anyway, just some points to ponder.


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## Harold_V (Jul 21, 2009)

Palladium said:


> Harold, your a machinist. I know from experience that working with that thickness of material is not easy, even when you have the proper tools and equipment.


To those with the proper equipment, even 1" thick steel is not a challenge. If you're trying to work it with hand tools, that's a whole different matter. 

A safe isn't safe unless it can't be torch cut or moved easily. A person is far better served to purchase a high quality floor safe and have it cemented in place than to buy or build a safe that can be moved easily. 100 pounds isn't enough to deter the average thief, let alone one hell bent on stealing. Even bolted to the floor, they would be more than willing to dismantle the fastening system, assuming it was exposed. 

A good option to pursue, assuming one can be located, is one of the old cannon ball type safes that used to be used in vaults at banks, to secure high value objects (diamonds, cash, gold). They are relatively small in size as far as the storage capacity is concerned, but are virtually impossible to move. They generally tip the scales in excess of a ton, often more, and have a capacity of about a cubic foot. They should also offer fire protection. 

An all steel safe would not secure valuables against fire, nor from the thief's torch. If a safe is to be made torch proof, it must be made of laminated materials, alternating layers of stainless and mild steel, for example. A refractory portion is also desirable, to prevent fire damage. An all steel safe readily gets to a destructive temperature in a fire. That wouldn't be an issue with gold or diamonds, but any paperwork stored within would be at risk. 

I would consider any safe that can be moved easily by two people to not be a safe at all. The minimum weight I'd consider would be 500 pounds, and that would be a light-weight safe in my estimation. 

Bottom line on all of this is if insurance is desired, an approved safe will be required by the insurer. It would pay to investigate what is acceptable before taking the plunge into building a safe that may not be acceptable. I know that the safe I have, which weighs a ton, is only 28" square, and laminated, with nitro seals, does not qualify. It is a turn-of-the-century Sergeant-Greenleaf that came from a US postoffice. 

Harold


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## Palladium (Jul 21, 2009)

Maybe a fire proof filing cabinet. I use to have one that i kept all my important papers in at the office. It must have weighted 3-4 hundred lbs and was rate for fire safety for 4 hours. I paid $ 100.00 bill for it used.


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## golddie (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi Palladium 
I have seen those cabinets taken apart by crooks.
You don't even need a torch for that

I have wanted to build a safe too
I had one safe that i thought was a safe but it really was a old cabinet with a combination lock
I didn't have experience then
It was very big so you could not carry it away but a person could have drilled the side of the safe with an ordinary drill
Thank God Nobody could rob me.


To buy a good safe you have to spend a lot of money
If you put it together by welding with a jewelers torch,then the crook could come to your place and use the same torch that you used to weld and he could take it apart.

I am like Noxx in this way.
I need a safe but I dont want to spend the money for it.


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## jimdoc (Jul 21, 2009)

When I moved a few years ago, we left a great big safe at the old house because it would have been too much work to get it out. If
you check craigslist there are often people looking to get rid of a safe free or cheap just because they need to get rid of it. I was told by a safe dealer that there is little savings in getting a used safe, because as long as it hasn't been broken into it is still the same
as a new one. People not wanting to move them is where you can get them for free or cheap. I have even seen old gun safes on craigslist for free, but I didn't want to deal with having to move it
either, so I passed on them.


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## Anonymous (Jul 21, 2009)

Noxx will your insurance company insure the contents of an unapproved home made safe.

I think your safe has to meet certain specifications for certification, otherwise your just as well off burying your valuables in a coffee tin at night.

Vault burglary classifications
Modular vaults carry three UL Burglary classifications: Class M, 1, and 2. There are other classifications.
Rating Insurance Coverage Notes
Class M $1,000,000 Entry level. Similar to a TRTL-15x6 safe.
Class 1 $2,000,000 to $5,000,000 Standard
Class 2 Up to $10,000,000 Top of the line.

A UL Class 1 vault is guaranteed to withstand a break-in attempt for 30 minutes, a Class 2 for 60 minutes, and a Class 3 for 120 minutes


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## Lou (Jul 21, 2009)

Choosing a safe depends on what you plan on storing and how much of it. To get affordable insurance, you must play by their rules and it will NOT be cheap--some of the nicer safes cost $70K.

Noxx, you could build a very tough safe to crack if you wanted to take the time. Might be worth it, but don't expect any insurance company to buy it.


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## Anonymous (Jul 21, 2009)

Any thief with a bottle of compressed air ( scuba tank ) and a suitcase plasma cutter good for maybe 20 minutes of cutting with this set up could cut through any exotic metal used to manufacture a safe.

Your 1/2 mild steel safe is no challenge to a thief, if it were me making a safe I would use titanium heavy wall pipe with a couple of rings welded near the top.

The rings is where your dead bolt is going to locate when locked, the lid is a nice fit inside once seated is flush with the top of the pipe. Once the safe is set into concrete level with the floor makes cutting difficult makes the use of shivs and pry bars impossible as they are not able to pass below the top welded ring.

Ideally you want a lock with three dead bolts evenly spaced.

Gouging a chisel into the lid will only spin the lid within the two welded rings. You do not want any hinges on your safe any hinge becomes a weak spot.

Many years ago I designed a lock similar to the one shown in the attached picture, purpose of the lock was to secure the underground storage tanks found at service stations to prevent the theft of gasoline and diesel.

The only difference from the drawing is my prototype had an O-Ring incorporated into the design to keep water out.

The fuel companies rejected the idea with technology thought up over a beer, they opted for float level detectors to activate an alarm should the level of the tank drop,

I laughed like hell when I learned this as any good thief would have brought a tank of water to replace the fuel being removed from said tank.


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## Platdigger (Jul 21, 2009)

Nice idea gustavus.
What moves the dead bolts? A key? Seems that would be the weak spot.
Or do you have another mechanism or way to move them to lock?


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## Anonymous (Jul 21, 2009)

Platdigger said:


> Nice idea gustavus.
> What moves the dead bolts? A key? Seems that would be the weak spot.
> Or do you have another mechanism or way to move them to lock?



The key used was one of those circular types that are not easy to pick, Two dead bolts were connected to a cam, the cam would not move unless the proper key was inserted.

This was only a prototype, the finished device could have been a weld on for new tank construction or threaded to replace older locking caps.

Gasoline theft from underground storage tanks is more prevalent than one would think, they like to keep it out of the news.

Here is a cap advertised for $425.00 and it does not even come close to being as secure as the one I designed. The one shown on the picture has ridges that a pry bar can gain purchase. If you knew how easy the caps slip off the cam lock you would agree.

The cap advertised is aimed at the mom and pop service stations, or the independent owner.

http://www.universalboot.com/ub/underground-fuel-tank-lock.php


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## golddie (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi gustavus
You are a person of many talents
How about the idea of making the top and the sides of the safe similar to your idea and buying a ready made door
here is one I found very quikly

http://www.vaultdoors.net/


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## markqf1 (Jul 21, 2009)

Don't forget concrete and steel.
It's cheap and easy and can be very time consuming to breach.
It can also be placed by people that aren't that knowledgable about safes.
A little inlay for fire protection and, It would take a stick of dynomite to penetrate it , in short order.

Mark


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## grainsofgold (Jul 21, 2009)

I would recommend that you get to know a good locksmith near you. Then keep an eye out for a jeweler that is closing up shop or a pharmacy. They usually have high rated safes.

My reasoning is that as you grow your business you will grow into the cost of a high rated safe and be able to get insurance that will cover the contents. A safe that you make yourself will almost never be accepted by an insurance underwriter. 

You can get a decent smaller *TR 30 x 6 for $3-4K maybe less if you keep your eyes open. Make sure that if you buy a used safe that the company will come and install it for you, re combo the locks for you and make sure that the UL label is on the safe. No UL label means don't buy it.

If you go for a **TR TL 30 x 6 you can find these $4-6K which will insure up to $1million USD of contents.

* TR = Tool resistant by Underwriters lab, TR30 X 6 means tool resistant for 30 minutes on all 6 sides of the safe. 
** TRTL = tool and torch resistant by underwriters lab, TR TL X 6 means tool and torrch resistant for 30 minutes on all 6 sides.


I think its great that you want to make a safe, but when it comes to security don't take any short cuts. If your homemade safe fails you could potentially be sued for product liability- Not worth the risk.

There are several of us on this forum who have been there done that in terms of business. If you ask and take advantage of what we suggest you can save yourself a ton of money in the long term. 

When I started out I didn't know much and I wish I had a 1/10th of all the money I wasted along the way. 

Learn from our mistakes and you will become a richer, wiser man.


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## Anonymous (Jul 21, 2009)

One day I dropped in to visit an old acquaintance whom I had not seen in 8 years, he had turned into a crack head. 

Noxx just to give you an idea on how secure your goods are, these guys had a truck mounted forklift sitting in the driveway the truck was stolen a week before and was used for various jobs err heists.

It was hilarious here sat a stolen truck that had run out of fuel in the thief's driveway and could not get it restarted once they had put fuel into it. They don't call them crack heads for nothing.

I vamoosed from the scene within minutes of hearing enough details to know this is where I did not belong nor want to be.


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## Oz (Jul 22, 2009)

Often a safe (unless very pricy) is best used as a diversion. Any thief knows the valuables are in the safe, right? Solutions containing 10-40 grams per liter would typically be left alone.

Taken to an extreme I once told a guy who was concerned with the government confiscating his gold savings to precipitate his gold and wash it well. Then to mix it 25:75 gold/potting soil (it is all brown), and grow some indoor house plants in it. Who would think to look?


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## golddie (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi Oz
That idea is worth a trophy.
It is too bad you cant patent that.
It is so simple but nobody would think of it.
But now that its in this forum the value is not the same
Thanks


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## Anonymous (Jul 22, 2009)

golddie said:


> Hi Oz
> That idea is worth a trophy.
> It is too bad you cant patent that.
> It is so simple but nobody would think of it.
> ...



Nobody would think of it, the idea has already been used.

When Germany invaded Denmark in World War II, the Hungarian chemist George de Hevesy dissolved the gold Nobel Prizes of Max von Laue and James Franck into aqua regia to prevent the Nazis from stealing them. He placed the resulting solution on a shelf in his laboratory at the Niels Bohr Institute. It was subsequently ignored by the Nazis who thought the jar—one of perhaps hundreds on the shelving—contained common chemicals. After the war, de Hevesy returned to find the solution undisturbed and precipitated the gold out of the acid. The gold was returned to the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and the Nobel Foundation who recast the medals and again presented them to Laue and Franck


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## golddie (Jul 22, 2009)

That is something! 
The things I don't know about.
What else are you guys going to teach me here in this forum.
I think that there is plenty of knowledge here.
The problem is that it is scattered everywhere.
You cant find anything
For example I remember reading about refining polishing waste and this was written by Harold and now I cant find it.
He had numbered the steps one by one
I have busted my brains trying to find this and I don't know where it is.


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## Noxx (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks a lot guys for all the comments (a lot more than what I expected lol)

Ok, the safe is not made for any insurer request or whatever. It serves the sole purpose of protecting my and my customer's values.



> Any thief with a bottle of compressed air ( scuba tank ) and a suitcase plasma cutter good for maybe 20 minutes of cutting with this set up could cut through any exotic metal used to manufacture a safe.
> 
> Your 1/2 mild steel safe is no challenge to a thief, if it were me making a safe I would use titanium heavy wall pipe with a couple of rings welded near the top.



Perhaps... But why would a thief cut a safe with a plasma cutter where most of them contain paper money anyway...



> Gouging a chisel into the lid will only spin the lid within the two welded rings. You do not want any hinges on your safe any hinge becomes a weak spot.



Are you sure about that, even if they are in the inside of the safe ? What do you propose then ?


Thanks a lot everyone.


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## Anonymous (Jul 22, 2009)

Any one handy with an oxygen acetylene/propane torch is able to cut a nut from a bolt without damaging the thread. I have done this thousands of times during my tenor as a scrap man.

So my guess is that a good man with a torch could open any safe with out harming the contents paper or other valuables.

Plasma cutting does not heat the work zone like acetylene does.

Looks like I got the scuba tank wrong on the suitcase plasma rig, they come with an on board compressor.

A plasma cutter is a relatively easy-to-use tool to cut steel and other electrically-conductive metals. These cutters work by using a high-voltage electrical arc and a compressed gas, usually air. An electrical arc generated by an internal electrode ionizes gas passing through a nozzle, creating a concentrated arc of plasma at the cutter's tip. The arc's contact with the working surface makes a high heat circuit which melts a section less than 1/16" (1.6mm) wide. The force of the plasma flow then literally blows out the molten area on the work piece, creating a fairly clean cut with little or no slag. The plasma arc travels through the nozzle at a speed of up to 20,000 feet per second, and at temperatures as high as 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit (16,600 Celsius)!

Light, portable plasma cutters use 110 volts with an output of around 12-35 amps. To simplify their use, these machines often feature with on-board air compressors. 

For only $917.70 it can be yours
http://www.bakersgas.com/HYP070783.html


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## Noxx (Jul 22, 2009)

The hinges will be on the inside of the safe (welded on the inner walls).

Also, the scrap yard man used a plasma torch to cut our plates to make them enter my civic. 
It cuts very fast, but also creates large amounts of sparks and molten metal. Any flammable material in the safe would be burnt in no time...


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## Anonymous (Jul 23, 2009)

Noxx you may also consider a laser beam alarm, here are the details for a DIY project, this would compliment your place of business with even more security.

http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Alarm/Laser-Alarm.htm


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## golddie (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi gustavus


> Don't forget concrete and steel.
> It's cheap and easy and can be very time consuming to breach.



How easy would it be to bet into this kind of a safe and how many minutes do you think it will take crooks to get into something like this


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## Chumbawamba (Jul 24, 2009)

I've been lucky. All my safes have come from my work as an electronics scrapper. I recently acquired (for free) a large data safe. It's big enough for someone to step into and close the door (about 6' high). Being a data safe means it's primarily used for storing papers and computer tapes and whatnot, but I got it because it would be far superior to my existing gun safe  According to the label, after 2 hours of a fire with an external temperature of 1000F the safe should max out at 175F inside.

The only problem was that it didn't come with the key or the combo. Fortunately, a friend of mine knew a locksmith, and he got permission to crack the safe for me on his own time using his company van. He was able to get into it in less than a hour, which is a bit disheartening, but then how many gun thieves are also master locksmiths? Hopefully not many  He drilled through the combo to remove the dial, drilled a hole into the combo lock to see the combo discs, then used a laproscope to peer inside and line them up and voila! Open. Luckily, the adjunct key lock was unlocked, so we didn't have to deal with that. It cost me $75 to replace the combo dial (we couldn't get working an electronic combo lock that I also got through recycling because we couldn't manage to reset the combo on it) and a nice G4 Macintosh in my scrap piles.

Another thing that makes me wary is that I was able to move this safe into my house by myself. Granted I had a big truck with a heavy duty liftgate, but then so did gustavus' crack head friend (I am not a crackhead  But I was able to push it up the remaining few feet of the driveway into my garage on its crappy casters. And I originally picked it up in my Toyota 4Runner, with the help of two other guys and a large moving bar (it had a long handle and big casters on the bottom on either side of a big plate...not sure what the proper name is). So a determined crackhead could, conceivably, steal this safe with a couple crackhead buddies and a pick-up truck. At least until I weld some mount points to the bottom so I can bolt it to the floor.

I keep my valuables in some GSA locking file cabinets that are also fire rated for a couple hours. I got these from another customer. They have 5 drawers each, and each drawer has its own combo lock. They were all open when I got them but over the time I had them stored some of the locks were spun and I got locked out of some of the drawers. I was able to determine the combos for all but two of the drawers by opening up the locks on the ones I could and manually reading the combos off the discs (on one cabinet that had two drawers locked all the combos were the same). For the final two I couldn't get open I managed to track down the lady in the company from where I got them and she still had the combos recorded. So now I have 15 mini-safes basically (with new combos of course). I'm considering opening up a bank  Each of these suckers weighs 668 pounds (according to the tag). Once again, these were moved into my garage with the help of a liftgate and a burly friend. So conceivably they could also walk away, at least until I figure out how to disengage the lower drawer so I can bolt them to the floor.


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## golddie (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi Chumbawamba
How about lining the walls of this safe with wire mesh and steel wires and concrete 
make it about 2 inches thick


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## jimdoc (Jul 24, 2009)

Chumbawamba said:


> a large moving bar (it had a long handle and big casters on the bottom on either side of a big plate...not sure what the proper name is)



It is called a johnson bar. You really need one of these to move heavy items.


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## Anonymous (Jul 24, 2009)

jimdoc said:


> Chumbawamba said:
> 
> 
> > a large moving bar (it had a long handle and big casters on the bottom on either side of a big plate...not sure what the proper name is)
> ...



Years ago they had a thin sheet which slid under a heavy appliance then using the output from a vacuum cleaner to inflate the bag you could move any heavy appliance with ease by yourself.

Now they have air pallets available that will lift up to 5000 lbs, and larger air jacks lifting upwards 5000 metric tons.

Rescue teams and towing company's use large air bags to upright vehicles as large as overturned loaded semi's


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## Anonymous (Jul 24, 2009)

Noxx,
I remember reading a story about some nobel prizes, goes like this, germans are coming, the germans are coming (actually Nazis), someone possessing 2 nobel prizes, a museum, of 2 nobel prize winners, dissolved the prizes in AR and places them on a shelf with everday common chemicals, end game, gold goes unnoticed, nazis defeated, guy returns, drops the gold from the AR and sends to the Nobel Prize committee, they remake the Prizes and reissue to the orginial prize winners.

I had sort of the same thing, I had my shed pilferred, got some hand tools and some copper, did not bother the jar of browish dirt on the wall. 

Jim


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## Chumbawamba (Jul 24, 2009)

golddie said:


> How about lining the walls of this safe with wire mesh and steel wires and concrete
> make it about 2 inches thick


Hi Golddie.
It's secure enough as it is. Once I have it bolted to the floor then most idiots who would try to break into my house would leave it alone anyway. The uberidiots would fuss around with it for maybe a few minutes and then realize they were in the middle of a burglary and get on with the lower hanging fruit. I was burglarized once but I think it was an isolated incident. It might've been an ex-girlfriend who was a closet meth addict (they all are, btw). It might've been local kids. Who knows. But either way, I think it's secure enough without modifying it. Nobody is going to get inside of it unless they are determined...or a locksmith 

As others said, a safe is a diversion anyway. You want the knuckleheads to waste their time trying to break into it (or break it off the anchors so they can try to take it with them). Meanwhile, your valuables aren't even in there, but stored somewhere else entirely where they'll never find them.

True story: our house was burglarized when I was a kid. The idiot that broke in tried to pry my dad's gun safe open with my dad's buck knife. Score: Safe - 1, Buck knife - 0. The bastards stole my piggy bank and my mom's wedding ring. (Unacceptable comment deleted, although I agree with it 100%. Harold)


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## goldnugget77 (Jul 24, 2009)

wouldn't it be great if there were no crooks


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## Noxx (Aug 2, 2009)

Hey, it's me again.

I started the building of the lock mechanism today. It's works good so for but a little tuning is still needed.

I have two questions:

-What is the easiest/faster way (don't tell me laser) to cut through 1/2'' steel plates ? It took us 2 hours to cut 4' with two Mastercraft grinders.

-Where can I find a safe door handle ? I don't want to use a standard door handle, it does not look good lol... 

Thanks a lot.


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## EDI Refining (Aug 2, 2009)

Noxx said:


> -What is the easiest/faster way (don't tell me laser) to cut through 1/2'' steel plates ? It took us 2 hours to cut 4' with two Mastercraft grinders.



Call a place that sells steel, they may have a shear. This would yeild a clean cut, unlike if you torched it.
Having it torched/plasma cut would be the next best thing


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## Harold_V (Aug 3, 2009)

Peter.H said:


> Noxx said:
> 
> 
> > -What is the easiest/faster way (don't tell me laser) to cut through 1/2'' steel plates ? It took us 2 hours to cut 4' with two Mastercraft grinders.
> ...


Shearing yields a heavily rolled edge, and often curls the material. Unless that is an acceptable condition, I recommend against the idea. 

Most weld shops use track cutters, either oxy/acet or more state-of-the-art methods (plasma) to cut material. In the hands of a qualified person, cutting can be quite precise, even torch cutting. 

Sawing is an option, but it requires a reasonably decent saw. If the part is small enough, it can be done in a horizontal cutoff saw. Otherwise a vertical band saw would be required. A description of the starting material and the resulting piece(s) would help provide better input. 

Harold


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## stihl88 (Aug 3, 2009)

Funnily enough most of the new industrial safes these days use a special mix of concrete for their walls and doors.
I saw a document on it yesterday and was quite amazed when i saw them pouring these concrete molds...


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## golddie (Aug 3, 2009)

Hi stihl88 
That video about making a safe sounds interesting.
If you saw this on the internet can you give us the link
Thanks


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 3, 2009)

In Hong Kong, the concrete walls of our vault were reinforced with "tang bars". They are a series of twisted steel metal strips of a hard, tough metal - they come in sheets, I think. They make it very difficult to create a hole in the concrete. They are not cheap.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22tang+bars%22+vault&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS259US259


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## stihl88 (Aug 3, 2009)

Yeah these walls had some Rio in them also, can't remember which ones.

PS: I saw the documentary on television unfortunately. It was aired on a program called "How They Do It".


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## golddie (Aug 3, 2009)

I think How they do ti is on internet too


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## peter i (Aug 12, 2009)

"Nothing can keep out a determined man equipped with the right tools and lots of time"

Having said that, the common thief will normally only bring the tools he can store in his pockets or a bag and the priority will be a quick job and a loot that is easy to carry and sell (and worth the trouble). A normal safe that is bolted down is unlikely to be accessible for him.

If he specifically target the safe and bring tools for the purpose, it is quite another case. And if it is a good safe, a likely method would be to beat the owner into opening it, rather than doing it himself.

I would prefer the combination of a normal safe and an alarm. The safe takes time to open, the alarm makes sure he does not have it :wink: 

Oh, and a cannon ball safe:
http://antiqueguns.biz/guns/cannonball%20safe.htm
note the time lock, eliminating the possibility of forcing the banker to open it!


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