# the turks , italians , the indians , the brazilians .. do it



## cozmotimes (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi there I am a newbie and have been lurking a long time on this website. Which is I must say the best reference on the net . I have fully read hokes refining guide . Ordered steve lazarse great videos , bought ronald loewens guide to refining ( which I can scan an upload If that s ok with the forum admin so in the future others can use it ) . I am based in Paraguay , and setting up a refinery and have a standing order to refine 15 kilos scrap a month not very much . The preference of a preset up refinery is the speed of the process . I have informed for adequate refineries around the world and there set up cost and how they work i have received many brochures. As you can imagine living in the heart of south America , is is not that easy to obtain and receive materials as with most folks active on this forum . On the other hand the rules and laws for setting up such a business are not that strict as in western countries. 

I have a few questions . 

1.I have consulted teknokarat , amritgemtec , afftec , and emak makina . The machines of Emak Makina , and Afftech are very hefty priced , The indian are cheap but dont look so profesional as the former. Has any one have experiences which they can share ?
2.After inquiring extensively I have noticed that all preset refinaries mentioned work with a hydrazine solution , they apply it in argentina , brazil, india , turkey and italy with good results , and not with copperas and or ferrous sulfate or smb why is it that most members of the USA don't use hydrazine ,what is the big contra ?
3. XRF vs Fire Assay , I have noticed there is no universal method on doing a fire assay , as many have there way of assaying . For the fire assay if i am correct you will need a assay furnace , cupels , led folio , pure silver , hammer , anvil and scale the outcome is not always reliable and requires lots of practice, while the XRF is more accurate , fast, but very expensive . What would be better . 
4.Why XRF dealers are so suspicious in giving price quotes , and most of the time they are not willing to export especially when living in paraguay , what would be a fair price for an bench xrf spectrometer I have seen quotes ranging from 8000 usd to 27000 usd ? Are there any guidelines or suggestions of suppliers ?
5. Choosing a melting furnace I have seen many melting furnaces ranging from 500 usd to 1600 usd , what should one consider when buying a melting furnace , what is the life time on a furnace how many melts can you do ? before you need to purchase a new one ? 



In the coming weeks I will try to experiment with the basics as lined out in hokes guide an will keep you posted thanks in advance


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## Anonymous (Nov 21, 2010)

I will start with the question that you rtitle leads to,which is why we do not use Hydrazine as a reducer.
Bottom line.......it is more dangerous.It is not as stable,and as a reductant it can form nitrogen gas.
Wikipedia:
Symptoms of acute (short-term) exposure to high levels of hydrazine may include irritation of the eyes, nose, and throat, dizziness, headache, nausea, pulmonary edema, seizures, coma in humans. Acute exposure can also damage the liver, kidneys, and central nervous system. The liquid is corrosive and may produce dermatitis from skin contact in humans and animals. Effects to the lungs, liver, spleen, and thyroid have been reported in animals chronically exposed to hydrazine via inhalation. Increased incidences of lung, nasal cavity, and liver tumors have been observed in rodents exposed to hydrazine.[29]

So it is a no brainer.........and if you use it you could end up being a no brainer.
The rest of the guys will have to answer your other questions,that is a field that I am unfamiliar with.However you seem quite knowledgable and well prepared for being a newbie.Welcome to the forum.


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## cozmotimes (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Mic , 


Thanks man , it certainly scared me enough to stay away of it , interesting thing is that , without hydrazine , renders all the pre set up refineries available on the market i.e afftech , emakmakina , teknokarat, and amrit as nearly useless as they all advise you can use smbs but only outside there refining process which causes different volumes , and more time and energy spent. Secondly I also understood that it is difficult to obtain hydrazine as they are used to make explosives.

Thanks again for your reply


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## 4metals (Nov 21, 2010)

Coz,

You are right 15 kilos a month is a modest quantity to refine commercially. But it is sufficient quantity to digest directly in aqua regia. Process the chlorides and recover the gold contained in the chlorides when you get enough to process. (a silver cell excels in this application) 
The machines you are looking at are pricey and they will limit you in the future. Consider a sealed reactor, 72 liters, which can refine 300 ounces per lot. They cost $6800 complete with heat and condensers. Add a vacuum filter and a hood to work in and you're in business.

I am personally partial to fire assays but Xray is faster. If you are settling on bars, go fire assay. 

As far as melting, go with a gas melter, simple, cheap and efficient. 

Set up a classic acid refining operation and you will be able to use varied techniques to accommodate different types of material you will see. An assay lab will help you buy more accurately and is helpful in the operation of your business. 

good luck, and welcome to the forum.


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## cozmotimes (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks 4 metals for your reply , I read that electrical furnace has a better spread and will later have its advantage in the refining proces , or is it all the same with a gas furnace. 


Thanks again 



Cozmo


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## 4metals (Nov 22, 2010)

An induction furnace turns the melt over better but for a startup operation a gas furnace and a graphite rod does the same thing.


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## ddhuney (May 28, 2012)

I have a 7 kg Gold Refining Machine from Emak Makina since December 2011, This is my experience as per 28-05-2012. I am keeping a webpage about the development with this company. This is the link:

http://contant-inkoop-goud.nl/index.php/9-uncategorised/79-emak-makina


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## Geo (May 28, 2012)

come on man, thats nothing to do about a machine. you could have actually used this in a non-spam way and it might have been ok.


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## goldsilverpro (May 28, 2012)

I don't think I agree with the negative report given this man. He bought a gold refining machine and is warning others against it. Sounds legit to me. It doesn't really bother me that he put it on his website.


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## Geo (May 28, 2012)

great, its hard for me to tell some times. it actually looked like a backwards advertisement to me. 

i apologize, but my intentions were good.


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## Harold_V (May 29, 2012)

I agree with GSP.

Harold


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## 4metals (May 29, 2012)

I also agree with Harold and GSP. It is actually good to get feedback as to the performance and customer support from some of these packaged refining units sold. These are the units our members would be inclined to investigate if they start producing more fine gold and feedback is good. I have personally seen Teknokarat and Emak equipment and it was not even close in quality to the Italimpianti equipment I have used. 

If I had to vote I would still vote for versatility and set up a lab with reactors so you can grow and change with the requirements of your feedstock.


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## dtectr (May 29, 2012)

i will first test to see if I can post from my device today ... I can, so Edit: rest of post.
I realized something, reading this thread as i I were a newbie, and remembered my original fear at the word "acid", as we've been programmed to react.
anyone following this, don't allow the "a" word to make you shy away from the processes. Performed with knowledge and care, they can be the safest, most economical, and even "earth-friendly".
just a random observation - don't mean to sidetrack.


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## ddhuney (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, i will explain the main drawbacks with Emak Makina. It is not a large firm, with only 3 main players. Mr. Emin is the Boss/Owner of the company, then there is Mr. Emre, his secretory for contact via phone and email, and then there is the son of the owner Mr. Mehmet, who is a technical engineer (actually he put the pieces of the machine toghether). I had ordered the machine in july 2011. I was promised to get the machine by September 2011. I received the machine in December 2011. Not sooner than by the end of February 2012 Mr. Mehmet shows up to put the pieces of the machines together. I can't put down in this reply the extensive list of contacts I made with the company to beg them to send someone for the installation. And for the installation and training they say to charge 5000 USD. After the installation it became clear that to meat the local Dutch standards, the machine would needed to be upgraded, which was not possible for Emak Makina. The company just wants to send you their machine and from there on you will start to see how much stress you will find just to get it working. The problem is that the technical engineer Mr. Mehmet understands the whole situation, but he is not entitled to make decisions. He is not able to decide when he can do the installation, he is not able to decide if he can do the installation at all, he is not able to decide to do modifications to the machine. Besided that he does not have full knowledge of all the refining processes. There is a father/son decision conflict of which the customer gets the negative effects. The father says i don't know what my son has promises, so i can't execute it, the son says i don't know what my father has promised, so i can't execute it, and with this game they continue. They never succeeded in creating a working machine according to the promise of Mr. Emin the owner. Mr. Emin afterwards ignored the situation, and made his secretory tell me that i need to live with the situation. They are only interested in selling the machine. Because the machine is delivered to you in loose parts you become totally depended on the arrival of that one single technical engineer. There is no other capable person in this firm. The company makes since day one of the order continues promises which are never met. Telephone calls are rarely picked up, lets say one out of ten. Emails are rarely answered. If you are to become a customer, than of course, they will pull you in. Well, for European standards we recommend you opt for Ballestri Impiati Italy or OroStudio Italy. If by any mistake you still decide to place a order with Emak Makina, i advice you, not to pay them a single penny upfront, pay everything after the working installation if you have faith.


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