# newbie Need Help Please Gold,and Sliver



## Randy Lim (Feb 2, 2011)

i am a new in gold and silver refining i have MINE Here and sale some PB stone and want try some Gold refining from gold stone, and silver stone... i see some video on you tube and read here in the forum, and here my problem 

first time i try gold and silver in PCB and computer parts
this my step

add some water use HNO3 ( solution blue color } filter 
wash and add some HCL and some HNO3 for make AR
after all dissolved solution color is Green

1 HNO3 with blue solution add some water and give some sodium chloride { no droping something}
solution change color to green...but i did another silver refining sometime silver drop in white { or like crystal precipitate }
but some time i never get drop with sodium chloride or slat 
what is wrong?
and if i have some silver precipitate powder { white like small crystal } how to make precipitate into metal silver power?

2 AR solution with green color add some UREA to make HNO3 weak and then add some H2SO4 
and add SMB color change to brown but never get any precipitate 
some time color not change to brown and solution change to blue clear color and still not precipitate ..

i did like that to into silver stone and gold stone
some time i can drop the gold power
and melted but gold not pure 999 at all
color like rose gold, or red gold
i think copper inside

thanks for help


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## Harold_V (Feb 2, 2011)

Randy,
It's clear you do not understand what to do. Please accept this in the spirit in which it is offered. 

Read Hoke. You must gain an understanding of how these processes work, otherwise you'll struggle endlessly. 

Sodium chloride is used ONLY for recovering silver as silver chloride. It has no other use in refining precious metals, at least for the processes we support here. Hoke will explain what is required for a recovery. Please download and read the book. You can find a link for the download in lazersteve's sig line, along with the sig line of many of the readers. 

Welcome to the forum!

Harold


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## Randy Lim (Feb 2, 2011)

thanks 
please give me a link i try find this link for download many time and i did not found it

please tell me what you use for droping silver from solution?
i use only HNO3 for dissolve silver

thanks again
Randy Lim


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## Palladium (Feb 2, 2011)

Read everything in my sig line below :arrow:


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## Harold_V (Feb 3, 2011)

Randy Lim said:


> please tell me what you use for droping silver from solution?


Unless there was a good reason, I always avoided recovering silver as silver chloride. It's dead easy to recover using copper. I'm assuming you haven't used an excess of nitric, for if you have, you'll dissolve copper unnecessarily. If your purpose is to recover your silver as silver chloride, you can do that using common table salt, or HCl. I don't recommend you do that. 

Pour your silver bearing nitrate solution on a few pieces of copper. The more you use, the faster you'll recover the silver. Silver in solution replaces the copper, which goes in to solution. It's best to do this process in a plastic container, so you don't risk breaking the vessel with the copper you use. Avoid using copper wire, for as it breaks down, all of it may not be dissolved, making recovery after all the silver is cemented, difficult. Use pieces of copper, such as buss bar or pieces of pipe. If your solution is too heavily concentrated it's possible for the silver to cement out as a complete covering, much like plating. That's not a good thing, for once the copper gets coated, all action ceases. The ideal condition is when silver cements out in fine particles. When it does, it strongly resembles Portland cement, which accounts for its name, cement silver. 

Hope this helps.

Harold


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## Randy Lim (Feb 4, 2011)

Palladium said:


> Read everything in my sig line below :arrow:




thanks so much Palladium
will read it carefully


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## Randy Lim (Feb 4, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Randy Lim said:
> 
> 
> > please tell me what you use for droping silver from solution?
> ...



usually i use Slat or sodium chloride but some time it never get drop 
i never use HCl i will try it
use copper maybe need more time right?
i will try it to thanks Harold you willy help me


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## Harold_V (Feb 4, 2011)

Randy Lim said:


> usually i use Slat or sodium chloride but some time it never get drop


In that case it's most likely because there is no silver present. I never experienced silver not converting to silver chloride when salt (sodium chloride) or HCl was used. 

If you are dissolving unknown metals, it may pay you to get some DMG (dimethylglyoxime) for use in testing your solutions. I suspect that you may be dissolving some nickel alloy---which you can determine with DMG. Hoke talks about the testing procedure. 



> i never use HCl i will try it
> use copper maybe need more time right?
> i will try it to thanks Harold you willy help me


You're welcome, Randy. 
By the way, if you use salt or HCl, you shouldn't try the copper process. When you use copper, you should go directly to the copper with your solution. You can recover 100% of the silver that way, and if there's no other values present (palladium, for example), you can expect silver quality in the 99% pure range. 

Harold


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## Randy Lim (Feb 4, 2011)

> By the way, if you use salt or HCl, you shouldn't try the copper process. When you use copper, you should go directly to the copper with your solution. You can recover 100% of the silver that way, and if there's no other values present (palladium, for example), you can expect silver quality in the 99% pure range.
> 
> Harold




Something i want to ask Harlod
if use copper metal are the HNO3 must be active or not active?
because i try it and no reaction in metal copper no bubble or anything 
maybe my HNO3 is no active anymore?
i must add more HNO3 on solution?

i read the book carefully about gold refiners
and try it here my step following the book

HNO3 for take all base metal include silver
take the solution into jar
i see some gold plating and brow power in the bottom 
and was it with Hot water until all clear
than add some HCL and few drop off HNO3 until reaction 
i think i use very little HNO3 on it
leave at day and the solution color is yellow but little bit green not pure yelow at all
filter and move to the jar
warm in add some Sulfuric Acid 
warm in and add some HCL on it 
warm until solution become syrup
but color change to dark green 
take some sample
add some water 1:3 add some SMB 
still not working 
whats is wrong?

thanks Harlod 

what is the different between SMB and sodium Bisulfit?


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## Harold_V (Feb 5, 2011)

Randy Lim said:


> > By the way, if you use salt or HCl, you shouldn't try the copper process. When you use copper, you should go directly to the copper with your solution. You can recover 100% of the silver that way, and if there's no other values present (palladium, for example), you can expect silver quality in the 99% pure range.
> >
> > Harold
> 
> ...


It's desirable for traces of nitric to be present, but not an excess. If you have too much, it dissolves the copper. If you have too little, reaction is likely to be slow.



> because i try it and no reaction in metal copper no bubble or anything maybe my HNO3 is no active anymore?


You can test the solution to see if it really has any silver present. Remove a drop or two, placing them in a test tube. Add a grain of salt. If you get a white precipitate, you should have silver present. If you don't, there is no silver, so you would expect no reaction, although if there's enough free nitric it will likely etch the copper and make it look very clean and fresh. 



> i must add more HNO3 on solution?


If you do, add only a few drops, but test to see if you really have silver. You have not made it clear that you do or don't have. 



> than add some HCL and few drop off HNO3 until reaction
> i think i use very little HNO3 on it


It would help tremendously if you could speak in terms of how much, Randy. However, it's important that you understand that a fluid ounce of nitric is capable of dissolving a troy ounce of gold when combined with HCl. Use that as a guide as to how much nitric you should be using. I can't help with how much because I don't have any idea how much gold you have involved, or how much nitric you've used. 



> leave at day and the solution color is yellow but little bit green not pure yelow at all


It's green because there is base metal included. That indicates you should have given the material a little more attention when you were dissolving the base metals and silver. 



> filter and move to the jar
> warm in add some Sulfuric Acid
> warm in and add some HCL on it
> warm until solution become syrup
> ...


It's hard to say, Randy. You haven't mentioned testing with stannous chloride--so you may not have any values present at all. Without testing, there's no way to know. I would also comment that you shouldn't filter until you are ready to precipitate. Once you have dissolved the gold, it should then be heated slowly to evaporate the unused nitric. Until it is gone, you won't have success precipitating the values, assuming you have any. When you evaporate, you should reduce the solution until it is a thick syrup, then add HCl. That should cause some nitric to be expelled. If you add it too soon, it won't work as it should. 

One thing is troubling me, Randy. I just reread your first post. You talk about gold stone and silver stone. Are you talking about ores? If you are, my advice to you is to forget that until you are well advanced in refining. It's not always easy to recover values from ores, and trying with acid is generally met with failure. There are exceptions. 

Do not throw away any of the filters you have handled. It is possible that your gold is in the filters, but until I know more, it's impossible to say. Please try to tell us how much gold you think you have in the process, and where it came from. 



> what is the different between SMB and sodium Bisulfit?


I have been lead to believe that they can both be used to precipitate gold, but I have no experience with either of them. I did all of my precipitation using SO2 and/or ferrous sulfate. Maybe one of the guys with experience will provide their opinion. 

Harold

Edit:
It is VERY important that you test -----everything you do should be tested time and again. It helps you know what you have, and how it should be handled.. I want you to read the part in Hoke's book about testing. Make the solutions she talks about and use them until you understand what they tell you. Until you do, you will have no end to questions that can't be answered, because you don't know what you have. Read Hoke. Understand Hoke. Don't refine until you do.


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## Randy Lim (Feb 5, 2011)

> One thing is troubling me, Randy. I just reread your first post. You talk about gold stone and silver stone. Are you talking about ores? If you are, my advice to you is to forget that until you are well advanced in refining. It's not always easy to recover values from ores, and trying with acid is generally met with failure. There are exceptions.





Harold

i have Mine here so i have Silver ores,gold ores,and PB ores.. but i usually use mercury for take some gold and silver
but in only works not to good only 40% gold will take with mercury..
but i forget for this time and learn about refining.. 
after i do it right and i will try on my ores..
thanks 
Harold you help me so much


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## Harold_V (Feb 6, 2011)

You're very welcome, Randy. 

So you'll better understand, removing precious metals from ores can be very complicated. I have very little experience in that arena, having processed only one type of ore. 

One of the problems you'll have when you try to remove values from ore with acid is the material often consumes the acid, and none of the values get dissolved. That's the reason you should avoid that process. 

Each ore should be evaluated to determine the best possible way to make a recovery. What works for one ore may not work for another. For that, you'll have to find someone that knows a lot more than I do. 

Keep us posted on your progress.

Harold


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## Randy Lim (Feb 6, 2011)

usually gold ores mix with copper,silver,gold,and PB
usually i take the copper use H2SO4solution will be blue
heat up will make it blue copper crystal
after that use HN03 to take some silver { sometime i can drop it use salt } sometime i cant maybe not silver in the solution..
next step is AR but i never get brown power use SMB maybe i want try use copperas
but same ores use mercury it will get some gold but 80% or 70% gold 
clean it use HN03 for take silver on gold and became 99% gold


i must learn about AR and drop gold use SMB or Copperas..


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## Randy Lim (Feb 9, 2011)

Harold i try use copperas for gold precipitat
but precipitat color is white mix with brow powder

are the copperas mix with water? 
and the color off copperas solution is green brown??
and use some hcl into copperas solution?

and how to wash gold power?

thanks for help Harold


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## Harold_V (Feb 10, 2011)

Randy Lim said:


> Harold i try use copperas for gold precipitat
> but precipitat color is white mix with brow powder
> 
> are the copperas mix with water?


Yes. Use an ounce of copperas (ferrous sulfate) for each ounce of gold you expect to recover. Dissolve the copperas in a little water, then add a few drops of HCl and stir. The solution should shift color ever so slightly, becoming a clear pale green color. It is then poured in to the filtered gold chloride solution.

I expect that you should heat the material you have now, and add a little water. That should dissolve the white you spoke of. If it does not, it isn't copperas and may be a problem. 



> and the color off copperas solution is green brown??and use some hcl into copperas solution?


If there is brown present, that is copperas that has oxidized. It won't precipitate gold. As long as you have some green present, it will still work, however. The most important thing is that the crystals you dissolve are green. I have used some with a hint of brown and still achieved good results. If, after you have dissolved the copperas, and have added a few drops of HCl, there is any solid residue, it might be wise to filter the solution before introducing it to the gold chloride. 



> and how to wash gold power?


After siphoning off the barren solution (after precipitation), I boiled the gold in HCl and water. I did this for about 15 minutes, then I'd boil in water to remove the HCl. A second wash with ammonium hydroxide will remove any traces of silver chloride, as well as traces of copper. A second rinse with water, then a third boil with HCl, which should now not change color. Boil for a few minutes, then rinse with water. Dry the gold in the same beaker---do not filter the gold powder. After you have either poured off or siphoned off the solution, place the beaker on a low heat and allow it to start drying. Swirl the beaker regularly, to prevent steam explosions and to prevent the gold from drying solidly to the beaker. Be very careful about using a low heat---to prevent steam explosions, which will blow gold out of the beaker. Once dry, raise the heat slightly, to drive off any residual acids. Done!

Good luck! Why don't you tell us how it goes?

Harold


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## Randy Lim (Feb 16, 2011)

Hey Harold
can droping gold with electro ? in AR solution?


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## Harold_V (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes, you can, although I never tried the process. You can use a thin sheet of pure gold as a cathode.

Harold


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## Randy Lim (Feb 18, 2011)

Harold 
i always failed drop gold with copperas or smb
last night i try use electrolys and success
i use 3v and use stainless steel for cathode 
but process willy2 slow 
can i use 12v for make process quick?
here my step

Gold,silver ores
use ball mill make it powder
add 70% HNO3 wait haft day
take solution HNO3 test little solution with salt and drop some white cloud { no color solution , clear }
add copper metal and leave it 
back to material jar
add hot water enough 
add AR = HNO3 and HCL 1:3
leave half day
solution become yellow brown maybe orange i think
move solution on another jar and let settle 
after settle add water 40% 
drop use 3v electro
after half day solution become green
and found gold power in to cathode some into bottom of jar
powder color is black 
first time i am not sure thats gold power 
than i dry it and melt it and thats become gold
2kg ores make 1grams gold thats good for me
thanks Harold


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## Harold_V (Feb 19, 2011)

Randy,
I'm not convinced you should be using stainless steel in this process. It is dissolved by AR, plus it most likely is very capable of cementing the gold. The end result will be contaminated gold, for sure. 

Because I am not familiar with the process, I hesitate to suggest to you that a higher or lower voltage is a good thing. What I can do is recommend you do a little research on a Wohlwill gold cell. That's how gold is parted electrolytically, from a gold chloride solution. Doing a little research by that title may reveal some guidelines that are helpful. 

I'm really impressed if you're recovering a gram of gold from only two kg of material. That has to be a rather high grade ore. 

Keep us posted.

Harold


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## Randy Lim (Feb 21, 2011)

Harold 
i want learning more about SMB and copperas
this time i try drop use smb use same ores
my problem is never get success get rid off HNO3 on solution
can use urea for get rid HNO3????
so i add some copperas solution became black color no drop anything
iff i add some water and add copperas solution not black but no gold drop
so i try smb this time
add smb but red smoke always come so i add more smb again and again
until solution become clear and cold but still not gold drop until know 
maybe around 2 ours i wait gold drop and still not coming out
testing solution is purple color

i read carefully and follow the book step carefully for get rid HNO3
but never get done.. 
if urea can use for get rid HNO3 
can i drop with copperas?
are you know about sodium nitrate?
i see on you tube use sodium nitrate look like easy just add on solution until gold drop
i thats right Harold?


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## Harold_V (Feb 24, 2011)

Randy Lim said:


> so i try smb this time
> add smb but red smoke always come so i add more smb again and again
> until solution become clear and cold but still not gold drop until know
> maybe around 2 ours i wait gold drop and still not coming out
> testing solution is purple color


The red smoke indicates you have way too much nitric present, Randy. 
Why don't you try eliminating the nitric by digesting some gold? If you add a piece (a button or ingot) of refined gold to the solution and heat it gently, as long as you have some excess HCl present, it will digest the added gold, consuming the free nitric. 

I expect that you are not having success evaporating because you're not carrying the operation long enough. You have to condense the solution until it's quite thick and changes color, at which time you add a little HCl. When you have conditions right, you see that brown smoke you talked about---which is the nitric being expelled. You may have to do that several times, especially if you have used too much nitric, which is a common occurrence for guys that are starting out. It's hard to be disciplined and allow acid the time it needs to do its work. 



> if urea can use for get rid HNO3
> can i drop with copperas?


I never used urea, Randy. I evaporated, and used added gold, always. However, to my knowledge, yes, you can use copperas (ferrous sulfate) to precipitate after using urea. If I am wrong, maybe one of the guys on the board will correct me. 



> are you know about sodium nitrate?


No----I have no experience with sodium nitrate. Sorry.

Harold


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