# Surgical mask for silver cell?



## justinhcase (Apr 10, 2021)

I have run through my stock of vacuum bag material that I had been using for my anode basket in my silver cell.
So was contemplating having to search through the local Supermarket to see what was there as most other shops are closed.
Then I thought, hang on we do have a nonwoven fabric created using a melt blowing process that is meant to be extremely resilient to chemical decomposition made from Polypropylene.
Might a Surgical mask work well in a silver cell?
They are quite plentiful at the moment!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgical_mask


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## g_axelsson (Apr 10, 2021)

It can't hurt to try. First check if it stands up to dilute nitric acid. Question is if it will clog easily, but then you only have to go back to your ordinary tested supply.

Göran


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## kurtak (Apr 12, 2021)

Justin

do they have a Walmart store near you ?

If so see if the Walmart has a fabric/sewing department 

if so buy the unbleached muslin cloth they have - it works "very" well for anode bags

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Apr 12, 2021)

kurtak said:


> Justin
> 
> do they have a Walmart store near you ?
> 
> ...



No Walmart in the UK unfortunately, 
And I have found cotton based material can not be washed in nitric without it turning to mush, a little sulphuric, and you could have gun cotton.
The last tight woven filter bag I used was cotton based as well.
It would be nice to find something more robust and easier to wash.


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## kurtak (Apr 13, 2021)

justinhcase said:


> No Walmart in the UK unfortunately,



Justin

You can get "un-bleached" muslin at any fabric store (& for anode bags you want to be sure to get the un-bleached NOT the bleached muslin) I just recommend the Walmart muslin because it has a tighter weave then muslin found at "some" other fabric stores --- you can read what I posted about muslin (for anode bags) here

:arrow: Copper cell

take note of Lou's comment of what I posted there



> And I have found cotton based material can not be washed in nitric without it turning to mush, a little sulphuric, and you could have gun cotton.



Sulfuric does NOT make gun cotton --- nitric makes gun cotton --- sulfuric dissolves organics (like cotton or paper or skin/flesh etc. etc. - it's called "wet ashing" - so a little bit of sulfuric can/will turn cotton to mush - a lot of sulfuric will dissolve the cotton

When I first started running my silver cell muslin (un-bleached) is what I used for my anode bags - I used muslin because it was the "recommendation" of the real pros (when I was still leaning) - pros like Harold, 4metals, GPS, Lou & others --- I can't even tell you how many, MANY kilos of silver I ran though my silver cell over the years & I never used anything other then muslin for my anode bags (actually a "liner" in my anode basket - being as I was running a Thumb cell)

Concerning gun cotton - yes its true that the muslin (when used for silver cell anode bags) turns to gun cotton - but that is not a bad thing - it is actually a good thing :!:

Why :?:

Because after you have washed the anode slimes off/out of the anode bag with water (not sure why you are washing them with nitric - but would like to know why) & then dry them out what you then have is a filter that is made of "gun cotton" with "some" metals trapped in it (like any other filter)

Gun cotton does NOT explode - rather what you have is a "slow" but "consistent" burning fuse - which is why it was made for cannon fuses & the fuses for the old (pre flint lock) "match" lock guns

Therefore - due to the "slow" and "consistent" burn of the gun cotton --- if you "mix" those anode bags in with "other" filters from your refining process(s) - when you go to incinerate those other filters - the gun cotton (anode bags) will "assist" in a better incineration of those other filters --- in other words - due to the "slow" but "consistent" burn of the gun cotton - when mixed in with "other" filters - it allows for better "ashing" of those other filters - when you go to incinerate those other filters

For what it is worth - you can cut many more filters (bags/liners) out of a yard/meter of muslin for the same cost of one vacuum filter

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Apr 14, 2021)

kurtak said:


> justinhcase said:
> 
> 
> > No Walmart in the UK unfortunately,
> ...



We do not give exact instructions on the production of energetic compounds as such instructions are Widley available anyway, and we try and avoid the proliferation of such information to prevent tarnishing an activity which could very easily be misused by unsavoury people.
Wikipedia says "usually either hydrochloric acid or sulfuric acid, or to another powerful nitrating agent."
At the same time we have to be aware of just how many of our wast products can decompose in an extremely energetic manner.
There have been a number of cases of people filter sheds burning down because of a forgotten bit of waste that has been left in a corner or tin and suddenly decided to undergo a rapid change in composition.
So I keep my organic waste wet.
Something one should be aware of but of no real concern to someone who has good planing.
And as for washing, I would not reuse a bag unless I was sure it was scrupulously clean, so sometimes I do use a dilute nitric acid wash to remove all the small partials of silver embedded too deeply to wash out.
If they can't be cleaned to an adequate point, or they fall apart they go in the waste.
But I am always looking at improving my system and the large availability of special designed fabric for filtering out particles as small as 20 nanometres should be of interest to anyone involved in filtration.
Also, it was a little "tongue in cheek" pandemic humour, but we will have to work on that with you.
It might be a cultural difference.


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## kurtak (Apr 14, 2021)

justinhcase said:


> We do not give exact instructions on the production of energetic compounds as such instructions are Widley available anyway, and we try and avoid the proliferation of such information to prevent tarnishing an activity which could very easily be misused by unsavoury people.



Not sure what this has to do with what we are discussing here (which is filters/anode bags for silver cell)

If you are saying that we should not talk about how gun cotton is made (&/or other explosive compounds) - then I must disagree & I disagree because of the fact that explosive compound can inadvertently be created in a number of different ways in the process of refining 

Therefore (IMO) such things actually need to be openly discussed so that (especially hobby) refiners do not inadvertently end up making such compounds that could blow up in there face - because they are un-aware they are even making such compounds

That is why - in the past - on a number of different occasions I have posted (in fair detail) about the "possibility" of creating things like metal fulminates, metal acetylides both of which are highly explosive AND which CAN inadvertently be made in refining

Gun cotton is another such compound (though not "highly" explosive) that can most certainly be created in refining & therefore (IMO) it is "important" that (especially hobby) refiners be made aware of not only "that" it can be created - but how it is made so that they are aware of how/when it is being created in there refining process(s) --- they can then deal with it accordingly :!: 

Gun cotton is NOT highly explosive - & under normal conditions is not likely to self ignite --- could it self ignite - sure - just like a pile of oily rages in a trash can "could" self ignite - IF - the conditions for spontaneous combustion are - "just right" 

In order for organics to spontaneously combust - it "requires" three things ------

1) fuel (the organic matter - hay, straw, cotton, oil etc. etc.)

2) heat (that rises above its ignition point)

3) oxygen (& from wikipedia - "by oxidation in the presence of moisture and air, - or bacterial fermentation) --- note the underlined --- that tells me - though not absolute - there is as much chance of "wet" (stored) filters self igniting as dried filters --- nitrates throw a "bit of a curve ball in there as yes they "can" self ignite both dry or wet - IF - conditions are "just right"

Of those three conditions - you can fully control two of them (the fuel is just there in the fact of storing the organics - straw, hay, rags, cotton etc. etc.)

the potential of heat can be controlled by storing in a cool dry place - & oxidation can be controlled by storing in a container that "lacks" oxygen (not that same as air "tight") but "lacks" oxygen - like a trash can "with the lid on it"

Bottom line - there is little - if any danger of your (muslin) anode bags/filters (gun cotton) spontaneously igniting --- as long as you keep them stored in a "cool" dry place in the first place - & store them in a container that "lacks" oxygen in the second place



> -Also, it was a little "tongue in cheek" pandemic humour, but we will have to work on that with you.



Per the underlined --- I "hope" you are not trying to "bate" me into some kind of confrontation Justin :!: :?: 

We have had such confrontations in the past - & as I recall that did not end well for you - so lets not go there again

I have gotten "way past" our past confrontations & I would hope you have as well

It is not my intent to get into another confrontation because of things in the past

Rather - it is my intent to post information that "may" be helpful to questions asked - that includes questions asked by you - if the info I post is not helpful to you in your particular situation - then that is not (& should not) be a problem - in which case we will work on figuring out what may better work for you 

As we know - in this business there is more then one way to do things - so though I may reply to something you ask - does not mean I am targeting just you - rather it is meant as/for general information that "may help you - & if not "may" help others that are following along in the discussion

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Apr 14, 2021)

Confrontation in the past?
Bate you?
I am not the one with the time to produce dissertations on ever inflection in a post.
Sometimes a Post is just a post and has absolutely noting to do with you.
Imaging that?


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## justinhcase (Jun 19, 2021)

No, the facemask I have around here seem quite waterproof.
I left one filled with distilled water overnight to flush it through.
But come morning, no water had managed to pass through at all.
I am now curious to see if this is to type sold locally or indicative of them all.
I would have thought they needed to be somewhat more molecularly porous.


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## Palladium (Jun 19, 2021)

Hummm....


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## gecox22 (Jun 23, 2021)

justinhcase said:


> kurtak said:
> 
> 
> > Justin
> ...



If you want I can go to a local Walmart and pick some muslin cloth up and ship it to you if you would like. But I am sure you can pick some up online just as quick though. Reach out if you need some help with this. 

Thanks, 

Glen


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## justinhcase (Jun 23, 2021)

gecox22 said:


> justinhcase said:
> 
> 
> > kurtak said:
> ...


Thank you very much for the offer.
I do have conventional close weave cotton material on hand for my cell.
But by all means replicate the test locally and see if you get a different result.
There should be some variation between manufacturers and location.
Mine proved disappointing, but yours may be of use.


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## Deceitful_Frank (Sep 1, 2021)

I've been running my first cell now for about a week and have made a few minor alterations. Its capacity is currently 2600ml and my electrolyte has 240g AgNO3 per litre which seems to be inline with whats recommended. The anode basket is cylindrical and measures about 7cm across and I have used duck tape to limit cathode area to 62 square inches and provide atleast some current density! 

Anode to cathode distance only starts at about 3.5" which I know is a little close and I am currently running 1.3V across the cell and about 1.2A. I could easily triple these numbers but am happy to go slow for stronger denser crystals plus my feedstock is currently in limited supply.

Finding a suitable fabric to line my anode basket is proving to be the latest challenge. I have tried shop vac bags but they seem impervious to water and just cause it to bead up. I separated a thin layer from the bag which will work for now but its extremely delicate. Can you recommend a fabric I can purchase cheaply here in our home town? 

Thanks and regards Frank.


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## justinhcase (Sep 1, 2021)

I am still using fine weave cotton muslin.
I then boil, so it shrinks further to reduce the weave even more.
Boiling in distilled water helps remove potential impurities as well.
I use two layers to insure no migration of cell black.


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## Deceitful_Frank (Sep 2, 2021)

justinhcase said:


> I am still using fine weave cotton muslin.
> I then boil, so it shrinks further to reduce the weave even more.
> Boiling in distilled water helps remove potential impurities as well.
> I use two layers to insure no migration of cell black.



Cool I'll look into this, thanks for the tip!


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