# Rapid Recovery Electronic Scrap Extreme Agitation Technique



## KentuckyCol (Oct 6, 2019)

I am experimenting with a novel method for the rapid recovery of electronic gold scrap using extreme agitation using a small air compressor. Also, I am suspending the material in the solution on the first processing to allow the air to better agitate the material, this increases the surface areas available to the non toxic chemicals I am using thus increasing the efficiency of the process.. I use the basic vinegar-sea salt solution and 3% hydrogen peroxide... I recover the gold foils in less than 16 hours using this method,,

[youtube]https://youtu.be/OE66XDhV7Jk[/youtube]


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## butcher (Oct 6, 2019)

Welcome to the forum KentuckyCol.
This topic has been discussed many times on the forum, Not much new.

Nontoxic chemicals, when mixed can become very toxic.

Vinegar is an organic acid which provides the hydrogen (same as HCl acid), the salt provides the chloride (and sodium ions), the copper provides the copper ions, and you made copper chloride.

You state not using dangerous acids, well in my mind using vinegar is not any safer than the use of HCl acid, the dangers are the same both make toxic solutions and gases...



The process and chemistry are almost the same, except for the use of a weaker acid and carbon compound of the vinegar, you are making copper II chloride to dissolve copper.

You do not have as much hydrogen from the acid with vinegar, so some of your copper II chloride is forming copper I chloride (the white powder), you could add HCl to dissolve it, or try a whole lot more vinegar and salt, to oxidize the CuCl to CuCl2.


It is the oxidizer in solution that makes dissolving gold possible, the process is not much different, use too much or too strong of an oxidizer and you could put some gold into solution vinegar is not a very potent acid or a very strong acid, it is also an organic acid (carbon-based) basically something I would not use to dissolve gold.

Will it dissolve gold if mixed with other chemicals, yes it can also dissolve many other metals.
we could probably make hundreds of different chemical concoctions to dissolve gold or other metals, but just because we can create chemical reactions in them does not make them a good candidate to recover or refine our metals in, especially our valuable metals like gold.

some else may argue with me and say that it works so why not use it, well just because we can make something work somewhat does not necessarily make it a good idea or effective.

I will go a step beyond and say to try and recover or even refine metals using vinegar is not just a bad idea, but a stupid idea, and a dangerous one at that.

Not only are you messing with an organic acid something I would not want to be mixed with gold, but you have a very good potential of losing gold in the carbon-based solution as a gold compound.
You also have the potential of making some very toxic metal solutions, and even the possibility of making some dangerous metal salts or compounds, unknowingly in some of your processes.

HCl is easy to get and cheap, it can also be made at home fairly easily.
Why anyone in their right mind that had any idea of what they were doing would use vinegar to dissolve gold is beyond me, all I can think is they read it, from someone who did not know what they were doing, and were just following them, like dumb sheep following each other off the side of a cliff.

We can dissolve gold with several different chemicals or acids, the hard part is oxidizing the gold.
We can make chlorine gas, hypochlorite or hypochlorous acid with many different combinations of chemical or salts, and acids, but just because we can oxidize gold and get it to go into solution, does not necessarily mean it is a good idea or something we should be using, especially if you do not understand the chemistry of what your trying to do or know or have any idea of what kinds of other chemical reactions could occur.

Just because vinegar has hydrogen in its compound which makes it acidic, does not make it a good acid to use to dissolve gold or other metals.

Vinegar and salt can make a carbon-based solution which contains HCl acid, So what, we can make HCl several other ways, just because we can generate a little HCl does not make it good to use for gold.

Bleach and vinegar will generate some hypochlorous acid (chlorine gas dissolved in water), chlorine gas Cl2, and sodium acetate, acetic acid, sodium chloride, oxygen, along with others in an organic carbon-based compound. this does not mean just because we have chemicals or compounds that can oxidize gold that it is a good idea to do so with them.

Some reactions of bleach and vinegar:
4NaOCl + 4 CH3COOH --> 2Cl2 + + O2 + 4CH3COONa + 2H2O
Chlorine gas, and oxygen can oxidize the gold in the sodium acetate solution.
Any lead in this solution dissolves into a very toxic compound.

What are you doing with these deadly gases and poisons you are making?
Are you destroying your health and poisoning your children or your neighbors with it unknowingly?

Another reaction with bleach and vinegar:
NaClO + CH3COOH --> CH3COONa + HOCl
Again sodium acetate and this time with Hypochlorous acid
Yes, an oxidizer for gold in an organic compound. So what?

2NaOCl + 2CH3COOH --> 2CH3COOH + 2NaCl +O2
acetic acid salt and oxygen, which can also be used in combination with the other reactions above to oxidize or put gold into solution. but also with other metals also becomes some dangerous compounds...


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## KentuckyCol (Oct 6, 2019)

It will take a bit to digest your comments, and they're appreciated.. But one thing I am not doing is dissolving gold using vinegar, just dissolving the base metal in the scrap (copper) enough to release the gold foils. Stannous was negative throughout the entire process..


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 6, 2019)

Whether you dissolved any gold in the process is not the point (but I would guess you probably did just a bit, and it cemented out on the copper as the process continued, hence the negative stannous test). When you dissolve copper in vinegar (acetic acid), you create copper acetate. Copper acetate is a permeator, meaning that if you get a drop of the solution on your skin, it will permeate intact skin, carrying poisonous copper into your system.

I have never understood why anyone wants to use vinegar (average acidity of about 5%) rather than HCl (average acidity of >30%). HCl is cheaper, and as butcher has said, once you mix your "non toxic" ingredients together, the mixture becomes very toxic.

We're not trying to beat you up, just get you started on a proper education. Forget what you "learned" on youtube and dig into the threads on this forum for better advice on how to process your scrap.

Dave


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## KentuckyCol (Oct 6, 2019)

DANG! I need to call every elementary school teacher on earth and tell them to STOP doing the shinny penny experiment and fuzzy crystal growing rock magic!! ok, ok... this is a YouTube refiner beef thing.. it's ok.. just being a smart a**, just my nature.. *But I appreciate all comments and all opinions, and I respect those opinions, even though my appreciation may be buried underneath a smirk and sarcasm..*

I really don't like creating chlorine gas, nitrogen dioxide and sulfur dioxide.. it's not one of my favorite things.. I will say that most of the Youtuber refiner community play fast and loose with these gasses.. I don't.. I know the consequences.. this is a hobby and I don't like the smell of HCL fumes either.. I'll take red wine vinaigrette any day.. 

But.. just an amateur opinion..


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## butcher (Oct 6, 2019)

Vinegar and salt will make a solution of sodium acetate and hydrochloric acid.

CH3COOH + NaCl --> CH3COONa + HCl

Lead and metals above hydrogen (in the reactivity series) will dissolve into this solution making toxic metal salts of chlorides and acetates, releasing the hydrogen gas...

The HCl acid will not dissolve copper, but if oxygen is introduced into the acid it will oxidize copper forming a solution of copper chloride and here with the carbon-based copper acetates...

Basically a very poor method of producing a copper II chloride solution that then is used to dissolve copper, etching the copper and base metals into solution, to recover gold foils.

KentuckyCol, 

I am trying to help you, I just have different ideas, and using vinegar in recovery or refining, in my opinion, is just a bad idea.

It looks like you have spent time setting up a safe place to work and with safety in mind.

I think you will have a good time here learning on the forum, even if you do not agree the opinions of others.

We have a safety section where you can learn to treat your toxic waste for safe disposal.


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## KentuckyCol (Oct 6, 2019)

I will absolutely take your word for it.. for real, I will.. but it worked.. in 16 hours (coupled with a mechanical side process) .. not days or a week or longer.. the copper acetate aside, even as dilute as it is, will be properly processed when the time comes, not poured down the drain like countless of chemistry classes in every high school in America. but that's neither here or there.. *I appreciate all the technical comments and I'm listening.. just weighing options.. *


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## KentuckyCol (Oct 7, 2019)

I need to clarify a few key points in response to the, much appreciated, comments. i have went to great lengths to stay safe using these dangerous chemicals and gasses. I work in a certain, can't talk about it, field in Physics and fully understand the dangers involved. But more importantly I respect the science of these processes. If I have a goal, other than just having fun with the chemistry, is to educate or develop safer ways to enjoy this "hobby". Yes, this is a hobby to most, a professional wouldn't waste his or her time with these types of gold scrap. 

It does disturb me that the hobbyists don't seem to respect the dangers involved. No, I am not too concerned with exposure to a dilute copper acetate solution, maybe I should be but i'm not. However, solutions consisting of HCL, Bleach or HCL, Hydrogen Peroxide, then bombarded with sodium metabisulfate truly concern me. It may be time to enact local and state laws controlling the process or reigning the hobbyists in by requiring a refiners license, especially the hobbyist(s) who obtain pounds and pounds of catalyst material, processing that material into very toxic brews and then exposing themselves to toxic salts and other cancer causing goodies. The catalytic converter harvester is the real danger, in my opinion. 

The last thing I want at the end of the day is to get a nice blast of sulfur dioxide gas and I am sure my neighbors wouldn't appreciate it much either. Plus I live in meth lab country and I am already taking steps to talk with my local LEO pals to cover my six when a nosy neighbor sees me in my Breaking Bad mask. So while it's a great and fulfilling hobby, it is a serious science and must be respected.


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## butcher (Oct 7, 2019)

KentuckyCol,
The work is dangerous, but almost all of the work I have done in my life was also dangerous.
I have come closer to death working for a living than I have recovering and refining metals, I have dealt with more dangerous chemicals and substances working in the industries than I have come into contact with refining.

Education will not remove the dangers but we can learn to work with them more safely.
This work can be done safely when the dangers are known and precautions are taken, just as with most of the other jobs I have done to make my living.


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## KentuckyCol (Oct 7, 2019)

I agree but... it's the hobbyist who seem to take the most chances, being the hobby motorcycle rider, rock climber, race car driver, electronics tech and so on and so forth. Those groups seem to suffer the most casualties. i am positive that this hobby is no exception and most certainly more susceptible to injury and in extreme cases even death. My last big hobby was HF tube amplifier design and building. One slip with 3000VDC plate voltage and that's it, you're dead, no exceptions, other than a holy miracle. But it's a ton of fun when that tube amp lights up and blasts off into the ether. That hobby and this hobby; If I had to advise someone on do it or don't do it? I would say; don't do it. 

But I am having fun and when it's not fun, i'll hang it up.


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## butcher (Oct 7, 2019)

Education, and a good understanding of the dangers, and learning how to work safely.


Uneducated persons working in a field they know nothing about and have no understanding of the dangers involved, blindly experimenting now that is a bit scary, and something that is hard to express to someone who has watched a couple of you tube channels and has gold fever.


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## KentuckyCol (Oct 8, 2019)

Have you actually watched some of these videos???? Any-who.. it is what it is..


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## Agold2019 (Oct 17, 2019)

How long does the vinegar last for? Do you make it yourself? It is not a high cost?


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## KentuckyCol (Oct 19, 2019)

5% Distilled Vinegar Kroger brand.. around $2.30 a gallon..


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## Agold2019 (Oct 20, 2019)

KentuckyCol said:


> 5% Distilled Vinegar Kroger brand.. around $2.30 a gallon..



How do you reclaim the copper? What happens to the waste?


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## Williamjf77 (Oct 21, 2019)

If the whole point here is the time of a copper chloride etching process with an air bubbler, why not make a spray etching set up like they do with circuit boards with normal copper chloride. I’m sure if you just recirculated an ap solution it would speed up the normal process time. Or just use higher air pressure bubbler. I don’t see any novelty.

The whole reason I think AP process is so popular is because most aren’t in a rush to reclaim a few grams of gold. And if you are processing tons I don’t think you would be using either way.

I used to make a lot of circuit boards as a hobby and I’d use a hacked together spray etch with ferric chloride because I was after .4 to .5 mm pitch pads, and the spray was faster than just air bubble.


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