# What is SPC?



## cmethowusa (Jan 16, 2010)

I read an article from Shor that said to use SPC (Silver Precipitant Crystals) I'm not sure what that is. Is it something common or is it for sale only by Shor?


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## jimdoc (Jan 16, 2010)

Shor has secret names for all their products.


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## butcher (Jan 16, 2010)

I don't know what SPC from shore is, they keep there top secret formulas hidden, if you can talk to there dog rufuss he might devulge the secret, most likely it is some everyday common chemical, many of us use here and get for the fraction of the price, and we are not tied to a company with the secret formula, and all the answers, that is if rufuss can even talk and will tell you the family secret. usually money talks but here dog bones may work. oops I am sorry that dog was on a bean comercial, I guess that dog can't help either, well I bet you can figure out what SPC is by buying some and studying the different precipitants used to precipitate silver, compare reactions and chemicals, one your fairly sure most chemicals can be tested to figure out what they may contain. man has been recovering metals and refining for an awful long time and I really do not believe there are that many magical new formulas that have been invented, most of it is century old technology, heck some of it goes back almost as far as the caveman.


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2010)

I think it is sodium borohydride.

Jim


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## cmethowusa (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks, I'll look it up.


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## ander (Jan 18, 2010)

It could be borohydride, but after one try with this compound I think it's too expensive and too trouble making stuff for metals precipitating.


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## butcher (Jan 19, 2010)

anybody useing shor obviously has not been doing their homework reading the forum, and have not read hoke's book, otherwise they would not care what shor had to sell, and would not be asking us to tell them how to get there gold out of a mess.


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## Irons (Jan 20, 2010)

Sodium Formate? It's cheap and can be sold at a profit.


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## dick b (Jan 20, 2010)

Irons:
I looked on ebay and nobodys selling it there. May need a business license to buy it.
dickb


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## Irons (Jan 20, 2010)

dick b said:


> Irons:
> I looked on ebay and nobodys selling it there. May need a business license to buy it.
> dickb



I think it's fairly new. I hadn't been on the Shor site in a while ad this is the first time I had seen it.

Expect more Shore innovations soon after appearing on GRF.


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## dick b (Jan 20, 2010)

Irons:

http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLS3508

Not cheap but it's not tech grade either.

dickb


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Jan 21, 2010)

The Bad Guys of Shor International.......They are the life image of the Devil....they love secrecy and money....they idolize Machiavelli,"the aim justifies the means".
SPC=Silver Precipitant Cristals=Hydroquinone=Common B/W developer
You can get hydroquinone very cheap in photo stores.
Do not allow Shor Interntaional to strip your money.
Best regards
Manuel


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## cmethowusa (Jan 23, 2010)

I got a response from Shor Int. concerning SPC. They said it was stannous chloride crystals and they do not sell it. If I recall, stannous chloride crystals can be formed with tin and muriatic acid? Is this a good precipitant, and better than copper? What's the hazards using stannous chloride in a silver nitrate solution?


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## butcher (Jan 23, 2010)

??? are they trying to lead you off the trail??

I can't imagine it to be stanous chloride, if it is used to precipitate silver,
As tin and HNO3 would make slime, silver would try to precipitate, but may have a hard time falling to bottom with the slime.
I have not tried but thats what I would guess.

beside you would make a form of aqua regia.
I would not trust Shor, (forget them learn to do it the easy way).

why not use HCl or table salt, if you want silver chloride?
but then you wil have to convert back to metal before melting,
use copper would best can melt it directly.


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## cmethowusa (Jan 23, 2010)

I am new to a lot of this. I've been using copper to precipitate (cement?) the silver. I've got some 70% nitric I bought locally and had some trouble with not putting enough Sterling into the solution. I started trying to cement with copper and only succeeded in dissolving a lot of copper. I got on the forum and OZ told me to add more silver. I did and it helped a lot. When Iused copper again to cement, I got a lot of bluish tinted residue on the bottom. When I tried to rinse, I never got rid of the tinti but finally the rinse water came clear.

This morning, I melted a little bit of the powder in melting dish and had traces of copper in the silver. Also, I have a hard black coat on the silver. I think it may be borax from the dish. I've got the nugget sitting in some concentrated H2SO4 hoping the black coating will come off. I may have to be more precise with my nitric/sterling ratios.

That's why I am looking for another way to get silver metal. I've watched LazerSteves videos but he is saying that using the copper is the best way.


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## butcher (Jan 23, 2010)

are you diluting your 70% HNO3?
you wont get all the copper out completly , without useing a refining cell and fairly pure silver anode, your best bet here, study GSP posts on silver, He is the pro here, Harold has made some very fine posts on silver also and I remember a cell desighn in one of his and GSP post, also Juan in mexico another member to follow when studying silver, from reading these members posts there is no reason you would not be able to produce some very fine silver. they could probalbly tell you the same thing that they typed already on the forum, but it took two years of typing to get what they have said so far, from them, already in print here.


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## cmethowusa (Jan 23, 2010)

As per OZ, I am now diluting the nitric 50/50. He also had a recommendation for how much silver to put in the solution. I will look for GSP, Harold, and Juan. It seems sesnseless to go through the refining process and not get the purest silver possible. I do have an electrolytic cell I use for silver plate stripping. I've had pretty good luck with that process.


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## butcher (Jan 23, 2010)

silver refining cell is a little different than a plating cell, if you have a small amount of undissolved silver after heat you would most likely know that you did not overdue on nitric usage, and can save that bit of silver for next run.


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## Irons (Jan 23, 2010)

dick b said:


> Irons:
> 
> http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLS3508
> 
> ...



It's easier to make up the solution as you need it with Formic Acid and Sodium Hydroxide. Formic Acid is available on Ebay...or you can collect Ants come Spring.

Wood ash and Ant Stew, anyone?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 23, 2010)

Irons said:


> dick b said:
> 
> 
> > Irons:
> ...



Oak ash waiting and the fire ants will be back before you know it.


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## Oz (Jan 23, 2010)

cmethowusa said:


> I got a lot of bluish tinted residue on the bottom



If you are dissolving sterling silver there are few possibilities of what your blue could be. If your solution was warmer when cementing on copper then cooled after all the silver was cemented you could have had copper nitrate crystals form. Washing your cement silver in hot water will dissolve the copper nitrate so it can be washed away. You may have also had some pieces of copper break off and get mixed in with your cement silver since you were using copper pipe if I remember correctly, this is why it is best to use thick copper for cementing instead of trying to pick them out.



cmethowusa said:


> I may have to be more precise with my nitric/sterling ratios



Sterling silver can vary more than one would expect but assuming actual sterling you will need for every 10 grams of sterling 14ml 70% nitric mixed with 14ml of distilled water. Use heat and add a bit of extra silver so you have a saturated solution without excess nitric. After you have filtered or decanted then proceed to cementation.

Even if all is done to perfection, you will only get 98-99% silver.


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## Irons (Jan 23, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Irons said:
> 
> 
> > dick b said:
> ...



Before modern methods, Formic Acid was produced by distilling Ants. I bet Fire Ants would be a good source.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 23, 2010)

Irons said:


> Before modern methods, Formic Acid was produced by distilling Ants. I bet Fire Ants would be a good source.



Ok Irons I'm sure you have an answer for this. How many oz's of ants to produce a given amount? And how would you distill the ants?


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## shadybear (Jan 23, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Irons said:
> 
> 
> > Before modern methods, Formic Acid was produced by distilling Ants. I bet Fire Ants would be a good source.
> ...



does it matter if its a little butt or a big butt ant :twisted:


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## Oz (Jan 24, 2010)

shadybear said:


> does it matter if its a little butt or a big butt ant


Of course not, it is not so much about quantity but concentration.


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Jan 25, 2010)

LOL....come on,guys...Let us get some bottles of whisky and a big box of cool beer and let us talk about this bussines:

Butcher,a man with a huge experience in PM recovery is right,as always.Irons,a man which his philosophy is as sharp as an unsheathed sword,is right too.Barren Realms 007,one of the most intelligent men in this Forum,is right toz,a man who has provided many vauable knowledge,is right too.So,Cmethowusa,what do you have to do?,well,uncover our bottles,say CHEERS!!!!! and go to work:

First of all,if Mr. Steven Sackett said it then it is true,it is "MAGISTER DIXIE"(told by the Master,from latin) so cementation is the best way to recover silver from a nitrate silver solution.Cementation reaction is a reversible one,so you have to dilute the solution with distilled water to displace equilibrium´s reaction to silver formation.Try to use solid cooper bars and you will get 98-99% silver.

If you want pure silver then you have to use an electrolytic refining cell,construction and operation of this cell has been posted by GSP in this Forum.

If you add stannous chloride to a silver nitrate solution you will get a white precipitate of silver chloride,not metallic silver.Of course,you can add table salt to your filtrated silver nitrate solution and run the Karo syrup method which works well.

Let us say CHEERS!!! and send Shor International to hell.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## cmethowusa (Jan 25, 2010)

I don't know much about Shor I. When I was reading some info I ran across ththe about SPC. I e-mailed them and their response was simply; "stannous chloride and we don't sell it."

I am a rookie at all this that's why I placed their reply on this forum. OZ recommended I use a heavier bar of copper to cement the silver. He also recommended I put the blue tinted powder in some hot water to possibly get rid of copper. I tried that and it helped a little, maybe, I melted some in my melt dish and it turned to silver but it still has a trace of copper. Also, there was a black substance on one side of the nugget. I think it was from the glassy borax.

I went out to my shed and pulled out about 6 foot of solid copper i/2" copper rod. That should do a lot better in the cementing process. I don't have a problem using another process for precipitation. However, Lazersteve said the copper was probably the best and safest way. Do you agree?


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## Oz (Jan 25, 2010)

For clarification, the boil of your cement silver is to aid in removing copper nitrate, it will do nothing for “copper”.

Be careful of your 6' long half inch round copper rod. Most rod like that that homeowners have around are copper plated steel grounding rods.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 25, 2010)

cmethowusa said:


> I
> 
> I went out to my shed and pulled out about 6 foot of solid copper i/2" copper rod. That should do a lot better in the cementing process. I don't have a problem using another process for precipitation. However, Lazersteve said the copper was probably the best and safest way. Do you agree?



I might suggest you go back and look at Lasesteves video again. When he made the clip he had problems make it cement and had to put a piece of plate copper in th mix with a larger surface area. I could be wrong but that 1/2" diam. rod might take a while longer since it has a small surface area.


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## cmethowusa (Jan 25, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I will cut into the rod and ensure it is solid copper. You are right, it is an old grounding rod I pulled up when I moved my shed. I melted some more of the powder and the nugget looked pretty good. I tested it with my acid test kit and stone and it appears to be good.

I've learned a lot as I go but most of it has been from helkp from the forum. Lazersteve's videos are excellant. Thanks again.


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## Sodbuster (Mar 26, 2010)

Old ground rod - take a magnet to it or just look at the pointed tip. The tip of um are usually exposed steel.
Ray


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## 1dizzy1 (Mar 27, 2010)

Whether or not Shorrs' SPC is a family or trade secret they are required by law to provide an MSDS. I have searched their site a couple of times for an MSDS link but have found none. I used sub-zero in their AR recipe and wanted to know what it was, no MSDS. I didnt call them because I figured I would get the run around, and I am not purchasing from them again anyway. Point being- every chemical used in the US and actually abroad has an associated MSDS. One thing the MSDS will list is the makeup and all components in the mix, by % or weight. Even if they purchase the component from another manufacturer, repackage it for sale they have to have an MSDS. I use Bodine Stumpout to precipitate gold, before I even purchased it, I went to their website and read and printed out the MSDS. I know a number of individuals on this forum are hobby refiners and I will bet most of them don't look at an MSDS which can be a very bad thing. Anyway, if you hammer them they will provide an MSDS, if not call OSHA, if they are packaging it in a plant they have an MSDS somewhere.
Don


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 27, 2010)

Excellent point. Shor's being skirting the rules. What would it take to force their hand?


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## Palladium (Mar 27, 2010)

Manufacturer and distributor requirements for developing MSDS for hazardous products. 
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/osha/I20070503.html

Criteria for trade secret status http://www.ilpi.com/msds/osha/I20011023.html
:arrow: 
OSHA has a very specific and rigorous definition/discussion of "trade secret" which makes up Appendix D of 29 CFR 1910.1200. An important quote from this section is Matters of public knowledge or of general knowledge in an industry cannot be appropriated by one as his secret. Matters which are completely disclosed by the goods which one markets cannot be his secret. So if you have a product which is easily reverse engineered or is a generic equivalent of other products, it would be quite difficult to support such a claim. You can not claim a "trade secret" merely for your own convenience or to prevent others from knowing that your magic cleaner is really just isopropyl alcohol. See this OSHA interpretation letter titled "0/23/2001 - Criteria for trade secret status" for more information.

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/osha/index.html


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## 1dizzy1 (Mar 28, 2010)

SPC- Sodium Percarbonate?

Going after Shorr is probably a waste of time. Word of mouth will do them in. 
A couple of years ago I approached a chemical manufacturer to get a sample of a chemical they had that stripped metals from silicon. At the time they had an exclusive contract with an Asian Silicon reclaimer and they would not provide a sample or MSDS until I proved that I was not in the reclaim business but in the "recycle" business. Actually they did send me an MSDS, but all the pertinent info was redacted out of the document. Once I convinced them that I was not a reclaimer and signed an NDA I received samples of their product and a full MSDS. Not cheap stuff, $100 a gallon. But it would strip copper like nobodys business, but always went exothermic when it came to Al. So I quit using it. Anyway, my point, finally.. NDA's are common documents in industry to protect "secrets". You could probably agree with them to sign an NDA and get the MSDS.

PS-dont you just love CFR? Good info, but you have to be a little zany to dig into it.


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 28, 2010)

SPC - Silver Precipitation Chemical?


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Mar 29, 2010)

As far as I know SPC=Storm Precipitant Cristals...When Shor uses it for silver it is hydroquinone.
Manuel


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