# Contents of Catalytic converters



## Anonymous (May 16, 2008)

I am new to this forum, however I have been lurking for a couple of weeks. I collect quite a large amount of Catalytic converters and sell them to a large collector of these converters who claims to sell them to TOYOTA after he decans them. I have tried to pick his brains, however they he is unwilling to release any information. I would like to find out more information as to the different grading, as I have noticed that others are grading them much better than what I am presently getting. 
I am trying to find a way of getting the competetive edge in my area so that I can buy from the other collectors and therefore a much larger volume. Are there any other collectors as large as Toyota who I can deal with?


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## jimdoc (May 16, 2008)

This site may help you;
http://www.catmax.net/


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## Anonymous (May 16, 2008)

Just checked out Catmax, LLC out of Johnson City, TN. From their pricing they seem to just be selling to a cutter who is selling to a refiner like Toyota as mentioned in my previous post. I beleive there is a lot more money in these things than this picture is showing. One of the local cutters that I have dealt with recently bought 5 brand new Macks at a cost of about $150,000.00 each. This leads me to beleive that they are NOT making the mere $2.00 & $3.00 per cat that they claim. They always have an excuse as to why the prices are not climing as fast as the market. Let's face it, if they are paying $160 for a small foreign cat, they are getting a lot more than $163.00! I was once told that 7 average converters yeild one ounce of pgm's. Lets say that the rhodium at over $9000.00/ounce and palladium at $450.00/ounce average the same as Platinum at $2100.00/ounce...Then the average cat should be worth $300.00 if a foreign cat is considered an average then why are they only paying $160.00. (Local cutters are paying this price...Actually Catmax is at $99.00 and only in loads of 500 pcs. otherwise the price is less.) That is a huge markup. 
Also from what I have heard from someone on the west coast is that soon every cat will have it's own price. No more catagories like large and small GM or large and small domestic.


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## dpolzien (May 27, 2008)

Stillwater Mining Co. refines alot of catalytic converters. Their most recent financial statements have lots of info.


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## Recyclebiz_com (May 28, 2008)

You're all chasing the Holy Grail here. How much precious metal is in a catalytic converter is completely irrelevant if you don't have the ability to: 1.) extract that metal efficiently and profitably, and 2.) get paid top dollar for it (platinum, palladium, & rhodium).

If you believe that knowing what is in these things is going to make the least difference in negotiating a price for them, you are deluding yourself. Buyers, whether they are refiners, consolidators, or collectors, will pay whatever they decide gives them an adequate return for their efforts and investment in your converters or catalyst - take it or leave it.

Want to get top dollar for them? Become the people you are selling to - invest hundreds of thousands in vehicles, equipment, and personnel (and have millions in liquid capital to invest in the converters as well, obviously)to travel around the country and accumulate enough scrap converters to get top dollar from the final refiner or buyer. Oh yeah, let's not forget about the sleepless nights worrying about the return on your investment, which is not going to get repaid for a period of months, most likely.

Really, if you want to know how much metal in a converter, get 10 samples of each converter, open them, keeping the catalyst from each type separate, and get them assayed. Assuming you can find someone who you'd trust to do these assays (it ain't the same a assying a piece of alloy), it shouldn't cost you more than hundred thousand or so - there's been a LOT of different converters manufactured in the 30 years since I started recycling them.

Also, while you're trying to do this, tell me how you determined that your converters being assayed are all from the same year, make, and model (that's the ONLY way you'll get accurate assay results, as the same cat from different model years might vary widely in metal content). IF you can do this, then you might believe in the per-converter pricing model. 

Frankly, very few converters have any distinguishing markings which would enable you to do this, and many look the same today as they did 20 years ago. There's simply no reliable way to tell without serial numbers for every scrap cat, to tell what's in them. 

Don't expect to get $50 for a 25 year-old Ford converter and $125 for the same cat which is off a 2003 Ford when you sell - the higher price may be realistic for the newer ones, but you just cannot tell the difference in them without some type of reference stamped into the converter shell.

So much for per-converter pricing.

If you want to make a comfortable living recycling cats, take my advice, based on 30 years' experience, stop worrying about how much profit the next guy in the supply chain is making, and concentrate on beating your competition by providing superior customer service to your accounts. Learn how and where to accumulate your inventory at bargain prices, and work at it consistently. Keep your overhead low, and turn your inventory as quickly as possible, always put your profits into growing your business.

Best os success in your efforts - Scott Andrews recyclebiz.com


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## Rag and Bone (May 28, 2008)

If a couple thousand folks have a clean and cheap way to get the metal out of cats...we don't a need major investment and a long supply chain. Keep the metal close to the source. Same goes for computers. Comparative advantage be damned.


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## goldsilverpro (May 29, 2008)

> If a couple thousand folks have a clean and cheap way to get the metal out of cats...we don't a need major investment and a long supply chain.


Unfortunately, this hasn't happened. No one has found a clean and cheap (and may I include safe, simple, and non-polluting) way to process cats. People have been trying for 35 years. There are lots of schemes in the patent literature but, most are poor. The good ones, like melting in plasma arc furnaces, require tons of money. 

I must agree totally with Scott's (Recyclebiz) post. There's too much pie-in-the-sky thinking. It's time to get realistic.


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## scavenger (May 29, 2008)

I have a brother in the auto dismantling business. He has been burying his converters for over ten years. He figures by the time he is ready to retire they"ll be worth a fortune.


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## JustinNH (May 30, 2008)

scavenger said:


> I have a brother in the auto dismantling business. He has been burying his converters for over ten years. He figures by the time he is ready to retire they"ll be worth a fortune.



Compared to a little while ago, they are well on their way to being the said fortune 
Just in the last few years the prices have risen very high for old cats


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## eemtek (May 27, 2009)

have a smelting project where the pgms didnt drop as expected? grind up an ounce of a cat converter to powder and add to mix.. if you see no action, drop in some copper.. I use small chopped up copper wire.. filter your fumes with a water jacket.


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## butcher (May 29, 2009)

from what I understand, mining of precious metals, for catalytics is less than demand for industry prices are higher, but as we keep getting more cars and old used catalytics to recover and also more are being recovered the price of these metals may lower as mining and recovery meets demands, and that the metals are changed in them as to cost if platinum cheaper they use more of it and if palladium cheaper well they then switch to more palladium, diesel catalytics apparantly need palladium, but fuel additives are starting to contain non recyclable PGM's so palladium in diesel catalytics may not need to be so great.
metal markets can fluctuate fast, saving metals can be tricky, who knows one day they are high dollar, next day its hard to get very much at all for them, supply and demand.


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## qst42know (May 29, 2009)

Holding PGM's may not be a safe bet especially now. With all the talk of electric cars and hybrids, etc. The implied falling demand may shake loose a glut of hoarded supply. Despite that it may take a decade or several to convert. If the auto industry is indeed turning away from the combustion engine, prices of PGM's may change very fast.


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## DNIndustry (May 31, 2009)

How do you think the electrics would be powered.
Platnium, Palladium, etc. PEMFCs
It takes around .5 g Pt to make a 1 kW hydrogen fuel cell. So if you are driving 75 kW vehicle (100 hp) it will require 37.5 g pgm catalyst.
How many vehicles does the world create each year? I dont see the demand exactly going down.


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## lmschers (Sep 24, 2010)

This is a link to my forum post.
I'm trying to recycle some cat converters in the lab.
Any help or ideas would be great.
I'm dissolving them in AR and trying to reconstitute the metal.
It's an easy process to muck up.

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8003


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