# costs of chemicals



## loco (Dec 7, 2007)

I was just thinking today when I was out looking for some hydrocloric acids and I noticed a pretty nice range of pricing and was wondering roughly how much and where is everyone getting thier chemical or supplies.

for sulfuric acid I paid $12.99 + tax for a gallon of rooto at the local ace hardware.

nitrate of soda for $6.49+ tax for 4 lbs of 15-0-0 from same ace hardware above

hydrocloric acid I got it for $3.99+tax a gallon from a local pool chemical supply company. but I also checked with an industrial chemical supply company today and the owner qouted me at $9.79+tax, and then at local store similar to walmart/kmart I found it for $7.99+tax.


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## Noxx (Dec 7, 2007)

For me, you HCl and Sodium nitrate would be good prices. But I'm not sure for the Sulfuric...


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## loco (Dec 7, 2007)

this is a thread that different people mentioned what they were paying for sulfuric. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=719 

I did the 32 oz at $6.99 and then figured it was sort of a waste since I could get a gallon for $12.99.


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## macfixer01 (Dec 8, 2007)

loco said:


> I was just thinking today when I was out looking for some hydrocloric acids and I noticed a pretty nice range of pricing and was wondering roughly how much and where is everyone getting thier chemical or supplies.
> 
> for sulfuric acid I paid $12.99 + tax for a gallon of rooto at the local ace hardware.
> 
> ...




Something doesn't seem right. That seems really cheap to me for the sulfuric. I saw ROOTO at one local ACO hardware store for around $28 a gallon as I recall. The larger stores like Lowes, Walmart, or Home Depot (around here anyway), only had overpriced quart bottles of acid or lye-type chemicals for drain opening. I found one old dusty gallon bottle of ROOTO at an Ace hardware for about $22 as I recall, so I bought that thinking I got a real bargain. I can't imagine how you found it for only $12.99?

Anyway, later I noticed on the bottle that it's packaged not too far from here in Howell Michigan.

macfixer01


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## skyline27 (Dec 8, 2007)

I pay less than $3 for hydrochloric at certain hardware stores. It does seem to vary. It should be almost as cheap as water.


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## Noxx (Dec 8, 2007)

Wow thats great. I pay mine 8$


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## loco (Dec 8, 2007)

the $12.99 bottle of rooto/sulfuric acid I bought in elkhart, IN as I live close to the michigan/indiana state line. I bought it and 2 bags of nitrate of soda all at the same place, and same time.

which is why I bought it. I paid $6.99 for a 32 oz bottle of rooto here in michigan and then found 1 gallon of it for $12.99 in indiana. I was like WOW how can I say no. and I got the reciept to prove it.


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## Never_Evil (Dec 9, 2007)

Heres my parts list again *ALL PRICES ARE MY LOCAL AREA*

Walmart for
- Sulfuric Acid for Cell $ 8.99 32 oz
- Hydrogen Peroxide $ .87 32 oz
- Fish tank tubing $ 1.99 for 10ft used for syphoning cut in half or thirds for acid specific applications (dont mix acids of unknown nature)
- Anchor brand dish for cell $4.99 
- Candy dish $9.99 (exact as steve's auric chloride vessel)
- Distilled water $ .59 for a gallon

Fleet Farm for
- HCL $ 2.29 128 oz
- Bleach (5.5%) $ .99 128 oz

Local Arts and crafts store
- Copper mesh screen $12.99 14 in by 20 in (tight weave)

Harbor Freight
- Battery acid filler (turkey baster) $1.99 , I use this to start a vacuum on the hoses.
- CHEAP GENERIC TOOLS - Screwdrives, pliers, funnels, rags, battery charger, hemostats, torches, heat gun, nitrile gloves, etc.

Through just creative findings

Lead for the cell - check with local tire shops and ask if you can have or buy some used tire lead. First melt it into a mold to rid of impurities, then remelt for making your cathode.

Buckets - I work at a grocery store and they throw away buckets by...well the bucket full. I can usually get about 5 to 10 per night with lids for free. Check the bakery section FIRST and ask if they have any, they usually give them away so they dont have to throw them away. A deli department / cold bar would be next only if that section carries potato salads and other cold food. You can get buckets also from local painters because they buy by the 5 gallon for their jobs.

Good will is also a good source to get stainless steel items. Spoons can be bent to hold pins in the sulfuric cell and attaching the charger to the handle. Sometimes you can luck out and find good deals on pyrex or other sturdy containers to handle acids. You might even be able to find some scrap there in the form of computers sitting in the back room or on the floor for sale, to thin gold on plates and glasses.

If there is something else that is sought after let me know and I will add it to the list or go find it.

Labware and lab grade chemicals are more of Steve's specialty and he has shared his sources as well.

Dennis


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## lazersteve (Dec 9, 2007)

Excellent list Dennis. 

Steve


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## eagle2 (Dec 12, 2007)

Loco:
Ace Hardware sells Sodium Nitrate? 
I bought mine on e-bay for a lot more.


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## Never_Evil (Dec 12, 2007)

It may not be called *sodium nitrate*. When I bought it from my gardening store its called *Soda of Nitrate*. Its percentages are 16-0-0 and does produce very nice working nitric.


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## loco (Dec 12, 2007)

Eagle2: 

yes but as Never_Evil said it is listed as Nitrate of Soda, in a yellow bag, made by a company called Bonide, and is sold in the garden chemicals section. nice yellow bag. and is 15-0-0 type and from what I'm told will make no real difference than other types of sodium nitrate for our purposes. 

And as far as the Acids go I just went to the section with the plumbing supply and they had sulfuric and muriatic acids in everything from 32oz to 1 gallon all right there. as a matter of fact I need to get back there and get some urea and borax soon. But as I mentioned above the pool supply store was my best find for muriatic acid. Ace had it for $12.99 a gallon. The Ace hardware I mention is a real big hardware store. They have thier own greenhouse attached to the store. and things like garden tractors that would typically be outside they have inside in a nice show room.


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## Irons (Dec 12, 2007)

15-0-0 has less Nitrogen, meaning less Nitrate. The rest is probably chlorides or sufates. If you're just making poor mans' AR for a first digestion, it's no big deal. If you want to dissolve Silver with Nitric Acid, then the chloride content is a big deal because its' going to cause the Silver to passivate with AgCl or precipitate out as AgCl.

Use some common sense when deciding what reagents to use.


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## eagle2 (Dec 12, 2007)

Thanks for the info Never,Loco and Irons (I know that`s Gabby Hayes!)

I only have 3 or 4 pints of concd. nitric left from a drum I bought years ago. Saving that for making pure silver nitrate for a silver e-winning cell. 

If poor mans nitric has chlorides in it, you will even have trouble dissolving
just the base metals. Your plate gold will combine with any and every atom of chlorine in the solution! And that much will be lost. I use distilled water only or to dilute, with this process.

If the soda of nitrate is described as 15-0-0 on a fertilizer bag, dosn`t that mean its all sodium nitrate? Except for impurities in the nitrate itself? I thought 15-0-0 would add up to 100%, or does that just mean 15% nitrogen? 

Irons method of using CaNO3 to make nitric deserves a good look to see if a poor man can do it.

Al


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## loco (Dec 12, 2007)

it is 15% nitrate. soluable in water. according to the bag.

so if i am understanding this correctly than items actually marked as sodium nitrate should be 99-100% nitrate compared to the above?


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## Irons (Dec 12, 2007)

I use Ammonium Nitrate as a starting chemical because it is made from natural gas and is very pure compared with other tecncal grade sources. I use it to generate Ammonia and the resulting calcium Nitrate reacts with Sulfuric Acid with Calcium Sulfate precipitating out.
As lasersteve pointed out on another thread, the mash will have to be distilled to get all the Nitric but it is very concentrated and pure, so if you're needing a chloride free Nitric, it's a reasonable way to go, otherwise you have to shell out good money for reagent grade acid.

Ammonium Nitrate is cheap and avalable around the World, even in fairly remote areas. I had to special order mine and did get some raised eyebrows, but as long as you're not breaking any laws, there's no reason you can't get it.


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## Noxx (Dec 12, 2007)

Well, would you agree to send me some ? My local chem store absolutely don't want to sell me some, they are sure I'll make a bomb...
And you are in Maine, shipping will be easy.
Anyway, let me know.

About the nitric, what's the concentration you can achieve ?

Thanks


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## Lou (Dec 12, 2007)

There's a glassblower up in Quebec I used to order from all the time. He could set you up with a nice distillation set for a few hundred Canadian. I suggest you distill azeotropic 67% nitric though--the red fuming variety is in a different league and can really ruin your day.

PM and I'll try and get his contact info.


Lou


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## eagle2 (Dec 13, 2007)

Purified NaNO3 is at least 99%. Sodium 27.05%. Nitrogen 16.48%. Oxygen 56.47%. 

If the bag states nitrate or nitrates, I would take that to mean the: -NO3 ion. This is about 73% of the weight of NaNO3. 

But the bag states 15%, so if my thinking and math are right 73-15=58.
That would be 58% fillers. This is probably only barely in the ball park, since the bases present in the mix could be Calcium, Potassium, Ammonium, dirt, etc. besides Sodium. 

Still, around half fillers is a lot of junk. When you made your nitric, did you watch to see how much of a precip you had and at what temps they started forming? 

Al


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## junkelly (Dec 13, 2007)

Al, I'm not sure I follow your math.

The mass of NaNO3 = The sum of the individual atomic masses...

Na (23), N (14), + O3 (16x3) = 23+14+48 = 85

The percent by weight of N in this compound is (mass N)/(mass NaNO3) = 14/85 =0.165 = 16.5%

There's some discrepancy between 16.5 and the advertised 15, which may contain filler, but not as much as you suggest.

*The "N" in the NPK is for elemental N only, not the NO3 ion*

Notice that the amount of "filler" in your example is almost equal to the amount of "percent oxygen".

-junkelly


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## Irons (Dec 13, 2007)

Noxx said:


> Well, would you agree to send me some ? My local chem store absolutely don't want to sell me some, they are sure I'll make a bomb...
> And you are in Maine, shipping will be easy.
> Anyway, let me know.
> 
> ...



I would be glad to but customs won't allow it methinks. Something about crossing the US Border and Homeland Insecurity.

Check around at agricultural supply stores. I bought mine at the local feed and seed store.

I hadn't measured the concentration. I filter and wash the Calcium Sulfate with clean H2O. I just use dilute Nitric. I just want to be sure there is no Chloride content.
I try to avoid using HCl or HNO3 because of the fumes.


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## eagle2 (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi Junkelly: Our atomic weights match close enough.

I was going on Loco`s remark; 15 nitrates, which should mean the -NO3 ion.

I wasn`t aware the 15 referred just to Nitrogen. 

So it would be good enough.


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## Never_Evil (Dec 14, 2007)

Just remember that Potassium Nitrate is also an acceptable substitute. In the Poor Mans Nitric you must add 202 grams of Potassium nitrate instead of the 170 grams of sodium nitrate.


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## Irons (Dec 14, 2007)

Noxx said:


> Well, would you agree to send me some ? My local chem store absolutely don't want to sell me some, they are sure I'll make a bomb...
> And you are in Maine, shipping will be easy.
> Anyway, let me know.
> 
> ...


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## lazersteve (Dec 14, 2007)

LOL!!!!

You forgot to fasten some pipes and wires to it with electrical tape!!! :twisted: 


Steve


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## Irons (Dec 14, 2007)

lazersteve said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> You forgot to fasten some pipes and wires to it with electrical tape!!! :twisted:
> 
> ...



LOL!!
That would have been even funnier but those Homeland Insecurity types don't have much in the way of a sense of humor.


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## Noxx (Dec 14, 2007)

Hahaha
Nice one ! :lol: :lol: 
Could you please include some fuel and blasting caps ? 8)


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## aflacglobal (Dec 14, 2007)

OMG
:shock:


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## eagle2 (Dec 15, 2007)

Bad Boys! :lol: 


Hey Noxx you`re gonna get three feet of snow!


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