# dangerous process



## ericrm (Jan 7, 2012)

recently a new topic about a dangerous way to recover gold from ic,have made me realy angry and anxious about the fact that nobody seem to care for the stupidity of new refiner. as a new refiner have a breath toxic chemical,spill toxic chemical,burn myself with toxic chemical and i KNOW that im not the only one...now most of older poeple here think it is a good idea to keep open the discussion about sulfuric and ic .you best argument is the free speech and the fact that if somebody hurt itself it opnly because of HIMSELF... now think about this, would you teach a child to use a gun,them give him the gun and leave him alone,saying i give him safety if he hurt himself it because of him not me... GROW UP A LITTLE YOUR INACTION HAVE CONSEQUENCE. personnaly i feel realy bad knowing that poeple will get hurt when it could be avoid...
I KNOW that it is hypocrite for me to say that,im happy, i refine because of the free information here.... BUT it made me think for a while and i come up with and idea that may be the answer to what i think is a big problem
could it be possible to block acces to some information to newest member.let says if your not register for a least a month you dont have access to some information...when the month is over and you have read one zillion time chemical are dangerous,you have now have the acces to more dangerous stuff...
could this be made? im realy not a comoputer guy


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## glondor (Jan 7, 2012)

Not a bad idea, but I would make the probation a little longer than a month. More like a year. With conditions.


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## element47 (Jan 7, 2012)

How would you propose that I, sitting in California, can prevent someone who is in Connecticut from going out and buying chemicals and mixing them in circumstances that might prove fatal or create serious injury?

I have read many, many posts by newbs all full of enthusiasm, ready to literally pour nitric acid over the two computers they have in their basements, expecting shiny gold beads to somehow appear in their hands at some later point. In every case I can recall, members have pointed out multiple cautions as to reading Hoke, watching out for fumes, dealing with wastes, obtaining and using proper safety gear, and selling your escrap instead of refining it. I have read members *very carefully reading into* newb (and not so noob) posts that indicate that the poster is ready and eager to set off in a direction that will cause them grief....and having multiple members pile on and issue warnings. The cautions have been repeated and clear, and somewhat sadly, flamingly repetitive. How many times has the admonition been made to "read Hoke"? And the link to it is provided. 

I think you are quite off base suggesting that members here are "giving a gun" to a novice and encouraging them to go off and start shooting the thing. Indeed, very much like the better gun forums I have read, there is never too many times that the standard "fundamental four" Cooper rules of firearms are repeated, and the veterans NEVER complain that rules are being repeated too often. 

As a matter of fact, I would make the exact opposite point. That without GRF, eager newbs would be looking to copy what are for the most part goofball YouTube videos where the fume, safety gear, waste and toxics/corrosives issues are largely glossed over or happen to be out of the uploaded video. Who's leading whom astray?


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## ericrm (Jan 7, 2012)

element47
it think you have miss my point,im not against grf, *what im suggesting right now is to find a way to KEEP grf complete and open to all but also protect the newb until they are a bit more educated* ,im register for 6 month now and im building my FIRST fume hood,i have gone tru nose bleed ,head ach,sore throt and it took me 6 month to understand THAT MY LIFE IS IN DANGER.
do you understand why it take me too heart to protect those who are as dumb as me.im scared to death of concentrated sulfuric acid but you know what, i will try the wet ash ,and if i knew it 6 month ago i would have tryed it too... and 6 month ago ,when i wouldnt not even considere putting GLOVE ON, i would have hurt myself seriously.


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## samuel-a (Jan 7, 2012)

ericrm

Here's a short and only partial list of chemicals and by-products that may kill or badly damage you.
Those of which are suggested on a daily basis, some with the warnings and safety notes, some without:

nitric acid (cold/hot)
HCl
sulfuric acid (cold)
NO-x
Cl2
cyanide
SO2
H2S
Chlorates/hypochlorites
metal salts
NH3
and more and more...

On the IC's post, all of the safety precautions and warnings are clearly visible, stated by me and others.
Also, alternative methods are suggested in the same post. So yes, one must be dumb to not follow all the safety measures required.
If you are looking for someone to take responsbility over your (alleged) stupidity, i'm afraid you will not find one.

Yes, i was and still am concerned someone will hurt himself, but, on the other hand the process can help others.

Anyone reading this forum should know that he is doing it on his own responsibility, that should be on the forum 'TOS'.
We all know, that on this forum there's no false pretence, only the truth, all of it.

What you have suggested is a nice idea, but in reality, it can not be enforced.

The choice concerning my post is at the hands of the moderators now, i trust their judgment, whatever they decide.


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## glondor (Jan 7, 2012)

What ever the outcome Samuel it is a fantastic method with astonishing results. Well done.


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## Geo (Jan 7, 2012)

i cant remember.did we agree to a disclaimer stating that "we,as members by following any process described on the forum take full responsibility and absolve gold refining forum of any fault from any accident that may occur as a direct result of following said directions"? maybe we should, and maybe all new members should as well as condition of joining the forum.


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## niteliteone (Jan 7, 2012)

Ericrm,
The name commonly used for this process is “wet ashing”. I just did a Google search and got 235,000 hits in 0.10 seconds. 

This is a very common practice in chemistry and some biological laboratories. I’m sure it is used thousands of times daily around the world. With the proper safety procedures used no one is hurt period.

If someone chooses to use any process without understanding what they are doing, that is their problem not mine. All of the safety information is given here on the forum. If it is not used then the person deserves whatever happens to them.

I’m not saying I like the idea some people might get hurt, I don’t like it at all! And yes people will do things the wrong as you well know.

But at the same time I feel responsible to give all the safety information possible so that people that choose to use a certain process know all the dangers associated with that procedure. 

If it were up to me, I would set up a topic (in processes) on each procedure we use and limit input to the process itself and safety concerns on the process, no other conversations to distract or confuse anyone wanting to know how to use a certain process.

Sometimes it’s not easy to find all the necessary information on a process because of the way people ask questions and insert comments about a process before the complete process is posted. But this is a free forum and that happens in them.

I will finish by saying my father taught me how to handle guns safely. I taught my 3 children to handle guns safely. When my 4 grandchildren turn 10 they will be taught gun safety. It is the ones who are NOT taught gun safety correctly that I worry about and there are too many of them. (Darwin :shock: )
Just my opinion
Tom C.


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## samuel-a (Jan 7, 2012)

Geo said:


> i cant remember.did we agree to a disclaimer stating that...



No, but we should.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/ucp.php?mode=register


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## jimdoc (Jan 7, 2012)

Maybe some topics deemed dangerous should be marked as very dangerous with a red check, or skull and crossbones in every post of the marked thread. 

Jim


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## patnor1011 (Jan 7, 2012)

Every process in refining or recovery is dangerous. You may cut yourself badly and bleed to death while cutting fingers. I think OP overreacted. Would you wait year, month till you get access to forum? No, you would dismiss that period and will go somewhere else to search for informations without hesitation. 
Nobody is going to perform any vetting on new members as this will require paid staff and who they might be to judge your qualifications on subject? Anyone can choke to death while eating bread. 
Maybe another few moderators? Well in a while there might be more moderators than readers and we will soon have something like federal government is at this stage.

You are responsible on what you do and nobody else.


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## element47 (Jan 7, 2012)

> Would you wait year, month till you get access to forum? No, you would dismiss that period and will go somewhere else to search for informations without hesitation.



'Zactly.


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## martyn111 (Jan 7, 2012)

patnor1011 said:


> You are responsible on what you do and nobody else.



Couldn't have put it better myself.

This comment isn't aimed at anyone in particular.

If you understand that the process is dangerous, you have the choice of trying the process or looking for an alternative process, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.
Take responsibility for your own actions, and, if it all goes belly up, don't look to blame anyone else for your stupidity.


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## qst42know (Jan 7, 2012)

ericrm said:


> element47
> it think you have miss my point,im not against grf, *what im suggesting right now is to find a way to KEEP grf complete and open to all but also protect the newb until they are a bit more educated* ,im register for 6 month now and im building my FIRST fume hood,i have gone tru nose bleed ,head ach,sore throt and it took me 6 month to understand THAT MY LIFE IS IN DANGER.
> do you understand why it take me too heart to protect those who are as dumb as me.im scared to death of concentrated sulfuric acid but you know what, i will try the wet ash ,and if i knew it 6 month ago i would have tryed it too... and 6 month ago ,when i wouldnt not even considere putting GLOVE ON, i would have hurt myself seriously.



A large percentage of new members come here *after* they are in over their heads, often several gallons over.

Are you proposing they leave this on the kitchen table while waiting 30 days to become a member? 

There is no safety until you have been made aware of what is dangerous. Where did you learn what you were doing was harmful?


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## ericrm (Jan 7, 2012)

i dont understand what this mean ,i cant translate it in french...come here after they are in over their heads, often several gallons over.
but anyway i understand the rest
not at all,what im suggesting is simply to refrain yongest member to have acces at some post like make your own cyanide,recover ic with hot concentrated sulfuric acid,recover gold from hot concentrated sulfuric acid and nitric acid.
i have just suggest that some post should have a red flag and they should not be accesible for new commers for a month or two.. until they are more educated
but poeple tell it is imposible


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## qst42know (Jan 7, 2012)

Many have come here after they have many gallons of solution they can't get their gold from. 

They come here when they get in trouble. When what they are *already *doing is not working. When they are lucky to have survived long enough to find the forum.

In their kitchen, in their apartment, and even using their gas furnace to remove acid fumes.

I have heard so many stupid things that making them wait for help is even more foolish.


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## its-all-a-lie (Jan 7, 2012)

"come here after they are in over their heads, often several gallons over." This means people try things they do not fully know or understand and finally realise they are in trouble only after it is too late to back up. That is when they come searching for answers. You have good reason to worry about safety of people using dangerous chemicals without knowing all the dangers but like all the others have suggested, it would be nearly impossible to stop them from doing anything until they fully understand every aspect of what it is they are doing. If you deny them access to the different subjects on this forum where they get the combined knowledge of the whole group, what is to stop them from going elsewhere and getting partial information on the method they want to learn? Atleast here on this forum i have saw every action taken to discourage members new to the forum from physically doing anything until they have read and re-read Hoke, and fully understand every step of every process they intend to use. I personally feel those new to refining are more safe by reading everything the forum has to offer and by denying access to a portion deemed too far advanced for the beginner would be just as dangerous if not more dangerous than not letting them read it. Basically it is a "catch 22" and there is no correct answer.


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## nickvc (Jan 8, 2012)

I think the thing to remember is that this is an open forum but with strict rules and active moderators who keep the forum vital, honest and on subject, false information or dangerous processes or methods are quickly stamped on and with the reasoning laid out as to why if the poster doesn't do it themselves.
Most members never post and those of us who do come to regard the other members as part of their enlarged family and are quick to point out any dangers in any proposed process, we watch each others backs and also the forum and it's owner.
Free open discussion with expert input from some of our more knowledgeable members and the moderators keeps the forum what it is and most serious newbies come to realise why we stress the reading and learning before they even buy chemicals let alone start processing or refining, but for those that just want to dissolve everything and get their gold now, no amount of warnings or even lack of information will stop them.
We are men and women of science all processes and methods that can be or have been used to recover or refine are open to debate, that many really aren't suited to any but the professional or well funded amateur should not matter as we can pick what is and what isn't suited to our needs and then place that in front of the forum for comments and advice, it works and in my opinion well.


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## bswartzwelder (Jan 8, 2012)

Since my first day on this forum, I have seen or read where someone is told to READ HOKE. This has happened every single day. Nothing is ever stressed more than safety. Once you read Hoke, you will gain the knowledge of what is right and what may be wrong (dangerously wrong) with a process. If you choose not to read Hoke, or decide the information doesn't concern you, then any mistakes you may make are yours and yours alone. You are told to READ HOKE not because the people on the forum are jerks and don't want to just give you the answers, but because you learn more and retain more when you have to work for the answers to your questions. For that, I thank Harold, GSP, Samuel-a, Lazersteve and the countless others who haven't given a direct answer, but have pointed me into the right direction. I am sorry for all the accidents/problems you have suffered. I made several gallons of mistakes before I ever learned of this forum. Since that time, I have been reading and learning. The chemical bottles are going to remain closed until I feel I have the required knowledge and expertise to do it safely. 

What information you deem as important for you may not be important to me because of my background and education. Too many times, mistakes are made because people don't study the process enough in advance before they run out and buy a bunch of dangerous chemicals. I guess I'm trying to say "Do your homework first, then try applying the results in the lab." You need to learn this in depth if you are going to do it safely. If you need someone to hold your hand, then you've come to the wrong place.


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## Smack (Jan 8, 2012)

The Forum doesn't parent, it provides free information. What each individual does with this info forces no consequences on the members. You can chose to do it safely or be zealous in your pursuit.

Having a probationary period and trying to block areas of information would be ineffective and I am a prime example of that. Learned what I knew prior to coming to the Forum without the Forum or Hoke's book, I knew nothing of either yet I still figured it out from bits of info here and there over 2 years. Would I recommend that route? Surely not, I would have preferred finding the Forum in the beginning.


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## freechemist (Jan 10, 2012)

Hello ericrm,

Life itself is a very dangerous process, because of it's permanent inherent 100% risk of dying. - Should we therefor block access to life to every newcomer (baby), demanding him, to collect every information possible first about dangers and risks, he will encounter in his future life?

freechemist


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## ericrm (Jan 10, 2012)

im waiting to have babys on my own ,i think i wouldnot be fair to kill the babys of other poeple ... but if your willing to put the price i might start a "too late" abortion clinic :shock: :twisted:


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## niteliteone (Jan 10, 2012)

ericrm said:


> i might start a "too late" abortion clinic :shock: :twisted:


Sorry Smith & Wesson already did that one :shock: :lol:

Tom C.


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## kuma (Jan 10, 2012)

Hello all , how are tricks?
I hope that all are safe and well! :mrgreen: 



freechemist said:


> Life itself is a very dangerous process, because of it's permanent inherent 100% risk of dying. - Should we therefor block access to life to every newcomer (baby), demanding him, to collect every information possible first about dangers and risks, he will encounter in his future life?



That's pretty much along the lines of my thinking there Freechemist , :| 
To quote a line from one of my favourite films of all time ( Flight of the Navigator , :lol: ) , " If you want to learn to swim , you have to jump into the water ".
As a child , I was fortunate enough to have proffesional swimming lessons , and I was still a strong enough swimmer even as a tenager and after many , many ciggies and beers , to pass my army fitness swimming test at the age of 18 , but only just.
Let's just say that had I never had those swimming lessons , but I still decided ( _I_ still decided ) that I was competent and skilled enough to jump into that same water fully clothed and weighed down , but without those swimming lessons , I'm not too sure that I would have finished my final lap of that pool , it was a pretty long and deep pool , and I'm pretty sure that I would have sunk.
The only thing that would have possibly kept me afloat in that situation would have been the actual , physical , presence of experienced and qualified instructors.
Unfortunatly the presence of experienced and qualified instructors around us 24/7 is not , and cannot , be a reality for 99.99% of us , and personaly I'm grateful for any and all of the _swimming lessons_ that I have recieved here on this forum , it's what keeps us afloat , as it were.
If you screw up once or twice I suppose that's fair enough , but if your screwing up enough to the point where you feel that your health is in danger , and maybe that of others also , maybe it's just that your not taking your own saftey seriously enough , or maybe your rushing and skipping things , like saftey gear?
Just a thought chief , but in my personal view there's more than enough good , no , _GREAT_ , saftey information and advice on this forum alone , let alone the rest of the web , to help keep all of us safe and point us in the right direction , just follow it to the 'T' and I fully trust that all will be well.
Granted , the universe has a way of cocking things up for us occasionaly , but by implementing certain practice and proceedure we can greatly reduce , if not eliminate , these risks.
I appolagise if I may have seemed a little out of order here , but this seems fairly obvious to me , I can't mix cement , so I don't lay drive ways , common sense tells me not to. :roll: 
All the very best , kind regards ,
and above ALL , stay safe! 8) 
Chris


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## kuma (Jan 10, 2012)

" Wet Ashing ".
This is something that I had not ever heard of , even here , before I wrote my post above. 
" Wet Ashing " was mentioned on a thread today that I had started about my first attempt at recovering gold wires frim I.C.'s using pyrolyzation , and I must be honest that I had no idea what it was all about until now ( I have much reading and catching up to do! :shock: ).
This seems like a prime example to me , anybody who would even think about trying this procedure without propper experience and equipment would be asking for trouble by the sounds of it , so my advice still stands ;
If you want to learn to swim , jump into the water by all means , but for heavens sake , don't do so without having the propper lessons and gaining the propper experience and equipment before hand! :idea: 
Again , wishing everybody all the best , and wishing even more that everybody stays safe ,
Chris


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## SilverNitrate (Jan 11, 2012)

I guess there is a reason why dangerous chemicals are regulated to keep the general public from acquiring them. Just this year a law passed for Jan 2012 that buyer identification is needed to purchase acids and corrosives. The general public doesn't fully understand how to handle such reagents including muriatic acid for pool sanitation. I attended a technical institution for chemical engineering, and even some former classmen and faculty are reluctant to try precious metal refining. 
Someone may post a process online which could be dangerous or safe, but should always be treated as dangerous process no matter if its routine and published in chemical abstracts. I got flamed here for posting a way to seperate gold using IPA, to me its routine but am well aware of the danger and have the facility to handle.


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## joem (Jan 15, 2012)

Eric You are right. Looking out for someone's safety does not limit what they can do in life.
Kuma you are right too. That is one of my favorite movies.


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## Ikie (Mar 3, 2012)

hello 
i am very new to this and i have to say the main reason i joined this forum is due to the warnings
. its obvious to me that the posters on this sight have a vast understading of the topic and its safety issues. 
some common sense on the part of the reader should be expected.
i have yet to read a single thread here or any where else for that matter that doesnt express the dificulty and dangers of the refining process. in fact it is what is makening me learn more about it. if a person chooses to ignore these warnings then how can anyone but that person be responsible.
i was hoping to avoid the chemical process all together and simply smelt my scrap and refine it that way and i havent givin up on that . its obvious to me that before i would consider other methods i would consider the effects those methods will have on me and the enviroment and deal with those conditions first , common sense.
if you could simply wring the gold out then we would all be refining and gold would probably be worthless. i am having troubles figuring out how to navigate this sight as far as what are the articles i want to find and read all i seem to get is these chat threads any help
ike


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## nickvc (Mar 3, 2012)

Ike welcome to the forum.
I'm sorry but there is no way to refine precious metals without chemicals, lose the fear of chemicals we are surrounded by them everywhere in the bathroom, kitchen, garden even in food and drinks, respect them and understand what they are, what they do and what happens when you combine them.
Read the safety section on the main board and download C.M.Hokes book, it's free off many members signature line, it's written so that even I can understand the chemistry,just. Go to our own lasersteves site and watch his videos and download and read the forum handbooks.
It's all here, it's free but you have to read and study..
To find any topic or thread use the search function top right of your screen or use the one on Steves site which is better and keep reading the new posts and threads it ilk make sense if you read Hoke.
If after reading you don't want to refine then simply collect and sell, there's posts on what to look for and where to sell, but do yourself a favour and read, the more you know the greater the rewards.


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## patnor1011 (Mar 4, 2012)

First and the most important thing is to know what you have. People tend to over value their material or ore and believe to what they want to believe. To know real value can save you time and money. Sampling, testing and assay are the most important before you will start to imagine how to spend your virtual fortune or thinking about career change. I am still at my old job even that I am doing this (recovery and refining) for nearly 3 years. You cant get rich in a week or month.


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## lazersteve (Mar 4, 2012)

Ikie,

Check out the Guided Tour link below.

Steve


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