# Not even new to this yet.



## greyscout (Feb 24, 2014)

I've recently inherited a sum of gold and silver. After looking around on the web for a couple of weeks, I've become very keen on refining. My mom also has some things that she would like refined. I know that I could simply send it off and be done with it, but I like a challenge. I wouldn't necessarily be in it for the money. I'm quite fond of hobbies and I'm a very Science-driven guy (I'm an amateur Astronomer and I've built my own observatory in the back yard), so refining is very intriguing to me. After reading A LOT on this site, I know that the first thing I should do is read Hoke's book, which I've downloaded from a link posted in the forums (Thanks) and will get to reading tonight. However, no matter what Hoke tells me, this is something that I am going to do. That being said, I tend to go all out when it comes to my hobbies. I will be starting small (as most recommend), to get familiar with the order of things and to avoid destroying too much of anything, just in case. However, I foresee myself creating a specific area in my workshop for this expedition.

So, the main questions I am asking are: What kind of furnaces do you use? I would prefer to use a furnace over a torch system. Is it even worth melting down scrap copper, considering that the energy/fuel use would probably eat up all profitable value?


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 24, 2014)

greyscout said:


> However, I foresee myself creating a specific area in my workshop for this expedition.
> 
> So, the main questions I am asking are: What kind of furnaces do you use? I would prefer to use a furnace over a torch system. Is it even worth melting down scrap copper, considering that the energy/fuel use would probably eat up all profitable value?


Welcome to the forum.

First, I hope your workshop is not in your house. Never refine in your home. If it's not in your house, I hope there is nothing else in it that you value, as the fumes from refining will quickly destroy most metals. If you're serious about refining, you'll need a dedicated, isolated space.

Unless you have a lot of gold and silver to melt, a torch and melting dish is better suited to the task than a furnace.

I'm not sure why you're wanting to melt down copper scrap, but the cost of fuel is definitely a consideration.

In addition to Hoke's book, I'd also suggest the following links.

Read EVERYTHING in the Safety section of the forum, especially the Dealing with Waste topic. No amount of precious metal is worth jeopardizing your health or the health of those around you. 

Follow the Guided Tour created by LazerSteve. It will provide an introduction to the forum and numerous valuable links including the General Reactions List. Be sure to follow the link to his web site as he has many outstanding videos, a collection of great reference documents, and he sells a lot of the supplies needed to get started including detailed instructional DVDs. Samuel-a also has a lot of videos, guides and tutorials at his web site Gold-N-Scrap.

You'll also find a tremendous amount of information in the two Forum Handbooks compiled by aflacglobal, Forum Handbook Vol 1 and Forum Handbook Vol 2.

There is one last post that I think every member should read. ms32462 shared this experience with us : http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11957

Dave


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## greyscout (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?

I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.

The copper scrap question was just a question. This is primarily a hobby and turning a pound of copper wire into an ingot would feel good to accomplish.

Thank you very much for your detailed Index of the "should do's". I will follow.


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## JHS (Feb 24, 2014)

Hi,
Welcome to the forum.
Let me tell you about what happened with the furnace from Diamond.
I bought it on ebay for $212.50 AUCTION.
The first one over heated and burned up.
the second one looked like a bulldozer ran it over,
the third one I pluged in turned on and the electronics burned out.
I gave up and he refunded the money.
A good company to deal with but a poor product.
Here is a link to a kiln that will do the job you need.I bought the $265.00 one.I use it when I am not using my gas furnace.
john
http://aimkiln.com/aimsmallceramickilns.htm


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## bmgold2 (Feb 24, 2014)

greyscout said:


> Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?
> 
> I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.
> 
> ...



I've got a couple things to consider about your plans.

First, 10k and 14k jewelry can be identified as far as its value and is easier/cheaper to sell at least locally. Once it is melted or even refined, the buyer is likely to have to assay it to determine it's value. This will cut into the profits. I'm not saying don't do it but just consider how you plan to sell it.

As far as the copper ingot goes, I'd also love to do that just to do it. Same problem, scrap yards know what copper wire is. Once melted, they have no way of knowing if it is pure copper wire, copper pipe, or if it has brass, bronze or other things mixed in. Check with the local scrap yard (or where ever you might sell it) to find out if they will take it and if there is any difference in price. I've never checked but it would be worth investigating before you spend the time and effort to do it. Also, copper isn't as easy to melt as gold or silver without oxidising it. A furnace might help with that as well as the right flux. The cost probably isn't worth doing but it does sound fun to try even if it is only to get a bar of copper for your own collection. I have seen ingots of aluminum at the local scrap yard that looked like someone melted it and poured it into angle iron molds (triangle shaped bars) and talked to a guy once who had a way to melt a whole engine at one time and collected the molten aluminum as well as the steel and other metal that didn't melt. If I remember right, I think he told me he could melt it in about 15 minutes. He used propane but didn't say how much.

Do all the research before getting too much invested in this idea. I'm not trying to discourage you at all. I just know it is easy to rush into something without investigating the final process of selling your self-refined metal. I know it is a fun and interesting hobby but, if making some money is your goal, make sure you know what you are getting into. It is obviously possible to make money at this (many here are doing it) but there are also people like me that (so far) has spent more than the value of gold we get back. It takes time and/or money to turn a hobby into a paying business.

Don't give up. Like I said, I'm not trying to discourage you. If you have the interest (which you obviously do) then go for it. Everything you need to learn is right here on this forum if you spend the time to search it out including how to build your own fume hood and scrubber as well as how to properly dispose of the waste produced.


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## greyscout (Feb 24, 2014)

@ John: Thanks for your review (or story). Most kiln manufacturers will say that their kilns are not suitable for refinery. There's not much information on the webpage that you linked. While your word means something to me, I just feel like I should purchase a furnace that is specifically created for metals (not ceramics). I do thank you for your input on the Amazon furnace. There's not much more in this world that I hate as much as receiving something that doesn't work.

@ bmgold: As I said, this is more of a hobby than a venture for $. Any gold that I do purify would be barred and stored away. I just want the satisfaction of purifying it myself and seeing the outcome. Thank you for the info on copper melting. I hadn't thought of the oxidizing. I still have much to learn. On the same note, I'd just be doing it to do it... or maybe I'd create some neat shapes with it.... who knows? I am probably going to dream about melting an entire engine tonight. That is extremely cool.... or hot. I'm making no purchases until I've read Hoke's book and followed the instructions of Dave's.

Thank you all. Does anyone know anything about http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ELECTRIC-MELTING-GOLD-DIGITAL-FURNACE-35-Oz-1Kg-SCRAP-METALS-REFINERS-/160930560011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257835780b ? It's impossible to find any reviews.


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## kurtak (Feb 25, 2014)

greyscout

Forget going with an electric furnace - they are ok if all you are ever going to do is melt pure metals & you don't ever need to use any flux but if you find your self (in the future) needing to melt/smelt metal where you need to use flux an electric furnace just is not going to cut it 

I would go with a propane fired furnace --- I have 2 of them - a smaller one that takes up to a #4 crucible & a large one that takes up to a #40 crucible - here are some pics of my furnace's 

The small one cost me $350 & the big one cost me $1200 & that price (on the big one) included a cone mold & a lifting tongs & a pouring tongs

They (propane furnace) will out work & out last any electric furnace

Also you will find that you are going to need melting dishes & torch for the small jobs

Kurt


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 25, 2014)

greyscout said:


> Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?
> 
> I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.
> 
> ...


If you buy one of those type furnaces, you'll regret it. Harold and I both owned one and both of us think they are worthless. I used mine once and then it sat on the shelf and gathered dust. In fact, you'll regret buying any type of electrical furnace. Go gas.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 25, 2014)

JHS said:


> Hi,
> Welcome to the forum.
> Let me tell you about what happened with the furnace from Diamond.
> I bought it on ebay for $212.50 AUCTION.
> ...


Bad choice. Might work for awhile if you don't ever spill anything, which is almost impossible to do. All of those kilns are made from soft insulating firebrick. Just a drip of molten flux will cut through the brick like butter. Also, the fumes from the melt will attack the electrical elements and you'll soon need to replace them. Go gas.

Edit: To extend the life of the floor of that furnace or any other, I would cast about a 3/4" thick hearthplate from hi-temp refractory cement to fit the bottom of the furnace, leaving about a 3/8", or so, gap all around. Build a wooden form and put a thin layer of axle grease on the inside to make it easier to separate the dried cement from the wood. 

Level a table and put a sheet of plastic (cheapo painting tarp type) on it. Put the form on the plastic and pour in the refractory mix. To reduce cracks, I would mix up and pour 1/2 the thickness, lay some reinforcing wire down, and then mix and then pour the the other 1/2. In case of a big spill (e.g., a broken crucible), I would also build about a 1/2" high, 3/4" wide, berm (curb) around the edge (all 4 sides) with the cement. It doesn't have to be real pretty. Cure it by bringing the temp up slow, maybe from 0 to 2000 over a 4 hour period.

I have seen a few electric furnaces with bottom elements. In that case, I think I would elevate the hearthplate above the elements an inch, or so, with cut pieces of soft firebrick, to get some heat exchange to the elements.

I've melted hundreds, at least, types of items and, in my experience, success is often in the fluxing. And, when you have fluxing, you have spills and foamovers. Soft brick will soon be destroyed. Bone ash powder can be used to absorb these spills while they are molten. Then, you can scrap it out, somehow. If you leave the spills unattended, your crucible bottoms will stick to the hearthplate. Sometimes, it takes a lot of wiggling to get them out.


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## kurtak (Feb 25, 2014)

goldsilverpro said:


> If you buy one of those type furnaces, you'll regret it. Harold and I both owned one and both of us think they are worthless. I used mine once and then it sat on the shelf and gathered dust. In fact, you'll regret buying any type of electrical furnace. Go gas.



Yep - they look nice though - but dusting them off is kind of a pain in the butt :lol: 

Kurt


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## butcher (Feb 25, 2014)

greyscout,
This is just a suggestion for getting started.
It is best not to buy any supplies until you know for sure what you need, I would focus time first on study, and then small experiments, to get acquainted with the reactions, and the processes, purchasing the supplies locally as needed (second hand stores kitchen section is a good place for lab-ware supplies), start with simpler materials like memory fingers, and simple processes, and work your way up getting the equipment to do the jobs as needed, start small low cost lab-ware, Mr. coffee Pyrex coffee pot, corning pyroceram dish, electric solid burner hot plate, glass canning jars, suction bulb and pipettes, fiber glass rod for stirring, catch basins plastic or fiberglass cafeteria trays, (safety supplies gloves lab coat, safety glasses ...), this list will go on somewhat, but these can be the basics to get started, as far as melting I would start off with a torch and melting dishes, a mapp gas torch will work at the beginning, but a gas like natural gas and oxygen, acetylene and oxygen, propane and oxygen torch is more useful, you can build your own propane or natural gas furnace fairly cheaply easy if you have any mechanical skill, if you find you still have a need for one.

The main things you need to focus on is your education, supplies will be easier to find and you will not be buying things you really do not need, your lab and supply stock of chemical and lab equipment will grow somewhat as you proceed in the learning process, you will also find that you can get or make what you need fairly easily (sometime including chemicals) and can work with tools that you can in second hand stores, or a kitchen.


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## greyscout (Feb 25, 2014)

Kurt, thank you very much. You've steered me away from the pretty stuff. Bright colors don't belong in my workshop anyway. I've looked into propane furnaces and it looks like the kind of thing that I could easily build myself! I would just need some refractory, piping, and scrap. I really don't feel like running a 150' natural gas line to the back of my yard, so propane is the way to go (it seems).

As far as buying supplies, I have no intention of buying anything until I've finished reading everything involved. I'm just trying to get a head-start on ideas. I read about 20 pages of Hoke's book last night and the most amazing thing that I learned is that Hoke is a woman.  Sad, but true. I've read so many posts on this forum and never realized Hoke was a woman. It actually intrigued me and makes me more interested (if that was even possible).


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## kurtak (Feb 25, 2014)

greyscout said:


> Bright colors don't belong in my workshop anyway. I've looked into propane furnaces and it looks like the kind of thing that I could easily build myself!



Both of my furnaces are home made (I didn't make them simply because I am to busy with other things) building the furnace is not that hard - the burner is the hard part but still doable --- you have 2 options on the burner as far as air/fuel mixing - ether air injection (like my small furnace) which plugs into my air compressor & is then controlled by adjusting gas flow & air pressure --- or self aspirating (like my big furnace) - I like the self aspirating type better but they both work well

Will try to take pome better pics of the burners & post them later

Kurt


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## greyscout (Feb 25, 2014)

Great. Thanks, Kurt.


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## JHS (Feb 25, 2014)

Goldsilverpro wrote:Bad choice. Might work for awhile if you don't ever spill anything, which is almost impossible to do. All of those kilns are made from soft insulating firebrick. Just a drip of molten flux will cut through the brick like butter.

He is correct,thats why I poured a 1/2" refractory cement in the bottom of mine.
john


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 25, 2014)

greyscout said:


> I read about 20 pages of Hoke's book last night and the most amazing thing that I learned is that Hoke is a woman.


greyscout,

I'm guessing you found one of the older digital copies of her book. You may find the versions in my signature line more helpful. They include improved images, a lot of corrections to typographical errors that were introduced when the book was originally digitized, and an introduction that can help recognize some points that needed clarification. They also include a nice image of a young Calm Morrison Hoke. 8) 

Dave


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## Harold_V (Feb 25, 2014)

greyscout said:


> Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?


I, for one, heartily endorse an inside work area. So long as it is not attached to your dwelling, so atmosphere can be shared, there's absolutely nothing wrong with working in a shelter. Build it according to your needs. 



> I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.


Ok, I'll pretend to be a pro, at least for this topic. A furnace is a waste of time. Unless you get involved in huge volumes of karat gold, you can melt faster and more effectively with a torch and melting dish. I had both at my disposal and used the furnace only VERY infrequently, because it was too slow and inefficient. If you don't anticipate batches larger than ten ounces of karat gold at one time, you really don't need a furnace. 

I do suggest that your ultimate goal includes a furnace, however. You'll know when it's needed, and when it's not, simply be getting involved. 

In regards to melting copper, unless you have a good reason to do so, my suggestion is to forget about it. Copper is not fun to melt, nor is there much of a benefit in doing so unless you have need for the melted copper. If you plan to use it for recovery of silver, it might make sense to melt wire, but, otherwise, I'm at a loss to understand the need. 

Harold


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## Pantherlikher (Feb 25, 2014)

Welcome.
I'm at Denver, Pa. between Lancaster and Reading.
Small world huh...

Putting the horse before the cart is a waste of effort. No melting at all needed untill you have something to melt. Like your first baby waiting to become shinny.

As a hobby, look through the "where to find" section. You might find that very interesting. You will also find stuff you wont mind destroying while learning.

Get to the point of having refinned materials before thinking of how to melt it. 
That'll take a while so you have plenty of time to dream of the Super fabulous click the switch and have a nice shinny bar to be proud of.

I'm still dreaming of an automatic dish washer that removes gold for me.
I despise washing dishes but doing it for the gold trim makes it worth while.

B.S.
Good luck and hope to see a nice shinny thing soon.


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## greyscout (Feb 25, 2014)

@ Dave: Actually, the copy in your link is the copy I downloaded in pdf format.

@ Harold: I'm not just looking into precious metal refining. I'd like to get involved with all around metal working. In my business, we work with a lot of cast aluminum, scrap copper, and stainless steel. Now, the stainless steel part is way down the road. But aluminum and copper are within my sights and would require large quantities to make it worthwhile. As far as the "need" to melt copper.... there is none. I just want to say that I did it and have a little ingot to show so. This venture is not really a way to make money. It's just something that I'm interested in.

@ Panther: I know Denver @ 222 and 76. My dad lives in New Providence. I pass by Denver all of the time. I know that I'll have to refine prior to melting, but I'm also looking at recasting aluminum for parts that my company can use. Also, I'm just trying to get a heads up right now. I'm not buying or building anything any time soon.


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## kurtak (Feb 26, 2014)

Gary - here are the pics of the two types of burner construction - in this post is the pics of the air injection type (using compressed air) (next post will be the self aspirating type burner)

The picture of the complete burner shows it in a vertical position - it actually enters the furnace horizontal - I turned it up right for taking the pics of the air input & gas input

The gas input is a 1/4 inch pipe running through the burner tube with a orifice hole drilled in it facing the furnace - not sure of size orifice hole needs to be

The orifice hole in the end cap of the air input looks to be about 1/16 or 3/32 inch

The air input pressure runs VERY low - I will post instructions for starting & adjusting air fuel mix if & when you decide to go with this design 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 26, 2014)

This is the self aspirating burner & is by far the better design but is harder to make as it requires some real machining 

Well worth have it done by a machine shop if you can't do it your self - any future furnace I buy or make will have this burner design

Kurt


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## greyscout (Feb 26, 2014)

Thank you very much, Kurt. What do you think about this guy's design? http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html It's a little outdated, but it works and seems to be a simpler design. I don't want to seem lazy, but your design does seem a little intricate and the linked design is probably the cheapest solution. What do you think?


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## butcher (Feb 26, 2014)

The burner in the link is a good little burner and would work for a small furnace, or several can be used in a forge, but for a larger furnace I would go with a larger burner, the burners are easy to build, there are many designs to choose from, depending on the size needed, the furnaces can also be fairly simple to build.


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## kurtak (Feb 27, 2014)

Gary

I can't say how that burner would work - it clearly works well in the open air - but I have concerns on how well it would work in the furnace

My concern is that there is no way to control/adjust air/fuel mix

with both of my furnaces you have control over the air/fuel mix --- on the small furnace air is controlled by adjusting the compressed air pressure - on the big furnace air is controlled by adjusting the slide on the air intake slots - In my opinion - you need to have control over air/fuel mix to be trouble free in lighting the furnace - bringing furnace up to temp & running the furnace

Example - I can not even lite ether one of my furnaces if there is any air in the mix when lighting it - any air at all will blow the flame out - I have to turn on just the gas - lite it & let it burn for awhile (lid fully open) & let it warm up a bit inside the furnace before adding any air - other wise the flame blow out

Then as the furnace warms up you increase air along with closing the lid a little at a time as the furnace comes up to temp --- as you come up to full temp you reach a point where you can cut back on gas & increase air.

I could be wrong - but I see a problem in lighting & bringing the furnace up to temp without having control over both air & fuel

Its like lighting a gas/air torch - you start by lighting the gas & then turn on the air - trying to lite it with both gas & air turned on - it wont lite - once the gas is lit you add air & then adjust between gas & air till you reach desired temp (for cutting welding or brazing) --- get the air fuel mix wrong it blows the flame out & you start over

When you are trying to control a flame inside of a chamber (as opposed to in open air) having control over air/fuel mix is even more critical 

That burner may work fine - its just my opinion that you want control of both air & gas though - & I don't see that on that burner

Kurt


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 27, 2014)

I agree with Kurt. I can't imagine trying to use a gas furnace without total control of the air. For a blast furnace, which this essentially is, you need the "blast" of pressurized air.


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## greyscout (Feb 27, 2014)

Roger that. I actually found Rex Price's website and was very interested in his burners. Kurt, it looks like your burner is very much like Rex's. Construction actually looks to be quite simple. I do a lot of engineering at work and I think I can make that burner happen. That being said, could you provide some specs? Specifically the self-aspirating burner. I know that there are several factors: pipe diameter and length, aspiration hole sizes, propane distribution, etc. I'm afraid that getting one thing wrong can make a significant difference in temperature and/or life/death?


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## Harold_V (Feb 28, 2014)

kurtak said:


> Gary
> 
> I can't say how that burner would work - it clearly works well in the open air - but I have concerns on how well it would work in the furnace
> 
> My concern is that there is no way to control/adjust air/fuel mix


Not true. Air supply is adjusted by moving the sleeve towards the rear, covering up the slots. 

Self aspirating burners can be quite good, although I do not pretend to judge this one. 

My personal choice has always been a blower with a gate valve to control air flow. I'd not have it any other way. I used that system even on my tilting reverberatory furnace.




Harold


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## kurtak (Feb 28, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> kurtak said:
> 
> 
> > Gary
> ...



Harold

Correct as underlined in your above quote & as pictured (in this thread) for the burner that I use on my large furnace(pics provided by me) --- the burner in question (without air control) is one in the link to another web site that Gary provided

Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 28, 2014)

greyscout said:


> Roger that. I actually found Rex Price's website and was very interested in his burners. Kurt, it looks like your burner is very much like Rex's. Construction actually looks to be quite simple. I do a lot of engineering at work and I think I can make that burner happen. That being said, could you provide some specs? Specifically the self-aspirating burner. I know that there are several factors: pipe diameter and length, aspiration hole sizes, propane distribution, etc. I'm afraid that getting one thing wrong can make a significant difference in temperature and/or life/death?



Gary

You seem to be a handy adapt & over come kind of guy - there is no reason you couldn't build a self aspirating burner like the one I provided pics of with simple tools

Drill - angle grinder - files & tap & die set --- it might not look as fancy as mine but it would work as well ---

Gas feed - does not need the fancy nozzle like mine - it could be a simple pipe end cap with the right size orifice hole drilled in it - or hole drilled & tapped in the end cap to screw in a brass propane orifice fitting from a scraped out propane appliance

Same thing on the back of the burner pipe - use threaded pipe with pipe end cap - drill & tape to receive threaded gas feed pipe (may need to thread gas feed pipe a little more then thread from the store to get it to come through the back of end cap enough to make fuel line hook up)

Air intake slots in burner pipe - drill series of holes along a line of the length you want the slots to be - use angle grinder to cut metal out between holes & form slot - touch up with file

Slide slot - same thing

Drill & tape where set screws &/or studs are needed

That's what I would have done if I had time - I didn't have time so I paid to have mine made

As far as spec's (pipe size, slot size, etc.) that is going to depend on furnace chamber size which is going to be determined by crucible size & type you intend to run

Kurt


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## butcher (Feb 28, 2014)

I have built many propane burners, some natural gas burners, and even an oil fired burner, being a boiler man burners, and the combustion of fuel, were one of the things I studied well, to get more of an understanding of how they were made and how they needed to operate efficiently.

I have made most all of the different burners you will find on the backyard metal casting web site, and several burners you will not find on the internet. 

The Oliver upwind burner, it is a good little burner and can be made several ways, it does work well outside of a furnace with a flare, the flare is not needed when used in a small furnace, the Oliver upwind or other burners of this type of construction will also work well in a small furnace or in the small black smith forges. I did not have a problem controlling aspirated air, I tuned the burners air flow as it was built, and for its intended use, a simple sleeve can also be used to tune the burners.

Burners can be made many different ways, aspirated air, forced air, adjustable gas, adjustable air, or combinations of these, each design can have advantages and disadvantages.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 28, 2014)

This is what I used for natural gas. Very simple to build. I used it almost daily for about 4 years with no flashbacks. The gas input pipe ID was 1/2" for a #20 furnace. Read the whole thread. The same for propane except I used some smaller ID, fairly heavy-walled copper tubing for the gas input, maybe 5/16" or 3/8".
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=3222&p=76760&hilit=burner#p76760


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## heliman4141 (Mar 25, 2014)

greyscout said:


> @ Dave: Actually, the copy in your link is the copy I downloaded in pdf format.
> 
> @ Harold: I'm not just looking into precious metal refining. I'd like to get involved with all around metal working. In my business, we work with a lot of cast aluminum, scrap copper, and stainless steel. Now, the stainless steel part is way down the road. But aluminum and copper are within my sights and would require large quantities to make it worthwhile. As far as the "need" to melt copper.... there is none. I just want to say that I did it and have a little ingot to show so. This venture is not really a way to make money. It's just something that I'm interested in.
> 
> @ Panther: I know Denver @ 222 and 76. My dad lives in New Providence. I pass by Denver all of the time. I know that I'll have to refine prior to melting, but I'm also looking at recasting aluminum for parts that my company can use. Also, I'm just trying to get a heads up right now. I'm not buying or building anything any time soon.




Hello Gary,
Im a new refiner & when you said your venture is not really a way to make money thought id chime in as ive been doing this during good weather for 2 yrs. now & can safely assure you that you are correct ...LOL. You will not make any money at a small scale BUT you will learn a lot about patience & chemistry. That being said, besides reading Hokes book focus a LOT of your edu. twards reading fumes & safety & waste disposal. These last 3 are the real issues with refining period. A hood vent is nice but more is needed a LOT more, such as a scrubber, that too has to be maintained.

Just my .02 as I also have an Astronomy hobby is this: If I could go back in time id just work & buy my Gold in .999 bars & rounds & sell any marked jewelry & protect my health in that fashion. After 2 yrs. of doing this I can very safely say unless you live way out away from anyone isolated that you need a heated shed/garage, hood vent, scrubber, and a LOT of cheap to access material to refine otherwise its a loosing business from a time ( LOTS of spare time) & money investment. And the danger isn't worth any Gold you might get unless you are setup as I said. 

Like you I also didn't intend to get rich doing this, just wanted to learn about it & try my hands at it, which I have. I still have a mountain to learn but one thing that I have learned & am learning is that refining is oh so very noxious from start to finish. I just had new neighbors move into the home next door that was unoccupied last 2 yrs. & they have 4 kids so at this point im pretty much concluding on selling all my gallons of lab grade nitric & all my materials & playing it safe just going to work & buying refined Gold & just scrapping & selling that occasionally, that for me & the new neighbors the only safe avenue since I am not willing to spend 10 grand to make 2 grand etc.. & learn something anymore as its no longer a safe venture without a shop now. 

Its a bad move as the others said to sell marked Gold or Silver since its already obvious a certain carat. I have a tidy amount of 14K that im sitting on to eventually sell if the market goes up but id never ever melt it & destroy that tested & marked assay. If I was in your position id go one of two options IE: Hang onto your Gold & Silver & watch the markets or sell it & be safe with your health unless you plan on a full blown lab type setup period. 

I can tell you the elimination of acid wastes is as time consuming as the proper refining is. And you risk serious issues if any neighbors call & involve the EPA unless your completly setup like a lab & can prove it. Im very seriously considering getting out from this once ive completly cleaned up my 5 gallons of waste & going the cheap safe rout. I work so much anyway that its actually 10 times cheaper for me to just buy refined Gold then to do this, so ive learned a bit & now I know its not a money maker at my small level. The gentlemen that are answering your questions are not newbees thay are all fairly old members with serious equipment investments & they do or did fairly large portions of material stock, you have to as its so time consuming or its not worth the time effort.

Read about every aspect & how long it takes to "properly" do it correctly, with no short cuts to get at least 99.50 or better Gold. I just want to you to see the dark side of this endevour, fumes & waste removal safely. If it was just nuke with acid, wash, & melt then everyone would be happily doing it, but its ....far ....far from that easy...................... :| 

Just something to really sit down & consider before attempting is all im saying. Storage of all the acids and wastes is another BIG issue. What if you have a power outage during a fuming venture? Do you have a backup genetaror? Backups on everything for that & spills is importaint. Don't do a thing till you have read everything about all this then & only then decide if its worth all the equipment. Especially consider any close neighbors...............................

I hate to be a downer but ive been tossing & turning at night over all this as I live in a small residentail neighborhood & so far long as I keep batches small as has gone well but fumes are fumes & do escape. And its bothering me big time & im not willing to throw good money after bad just to make a few more Gold nuggets that I could buy with a LOT less effort & safely. These new neighbors just are the final decision maker for me.

Now IF I lived out in the country with no neighbors, & had all the usual lab quality safety devices & backups, AND most of all... a good access of cheap refining material heck yea id do it...............So im not all negative, but remember..... consider circumstances of your location & neighbors first, then read everything possible if your in a safe isolated area & you can then proceed if your up to a new challenge.

Dave


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## greyscout (Jul 30, 2014)

Dave:

Thank you for your thorough reply. I haven't forgotten about this venture; I've been very busy at work and won't get back to this until this Fall/Winter. Your description of your experience is very helpful. I will likely avoid refining and limit my self to the casting of parts for my company with Aluminum, then see if I want to move up to Stainless and that whole fiasco. Thanks again.


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## Harold_V (Jul 30, 2014)

greyscout said:


> Dave:
> 
> Thank you for your thorough reply. I haven't forgotten about this venture; I've been very busy at work and won't get back to this until this Fall/Winter. Your description of your experience is very helpful. I will likely avoid refining and limit my self to the casting of parts for my company with Aluminum, then see if I want to move up to Stainless and that whole fiasco. Thanks again.


A move up to stainless is a monumental jump, as it most likely will require an induction furnace. 

One can not melt steel or stainless in a gas fired crucible furnace, where even melting gray iron is difficult. 

Harold


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