# Shor recovery



## ArsenRefineries (Jun 16, 2011)

I see the shor system. It uses a salt electrolyte instead of cyanide or acid. Anyone had any success or know of nay success with this product? Seems to be much less problematic then some of the other methods and no hazmat...


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## Palladium (Jun 16, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> Anyone had any success or know of nay success with this product?



Save your money.


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## ArsenRefineries (Jun 16, 2011)

I know they have a chem scam going caling sodium nitrate subzero and adding a huge mark up. As for the simplicity sytsem though I don't see many results good or bad. Admitted calling somehting, somthing else for a big return is shady business, but a fool and his money are easily parted.... Would I be the fool the to not sell it to a wanting buyer? "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it" Syrus, Publilius. On that note though, the only other reverse electroplating sytsem I see manufactured for purchase is the Gold Bug system. Its 1500$ and uses a cyanide solution. If I paid 2000$ and Had a device that could recover scrap gold simply and safely wouldn't you say It would be worth it? Perhaps even on your first bulk lot of filled scrap bought for dirt cheap? I don't see anything else that can offer anything similar without cyanide. If the results are decent I'd say Its a steal at 600$ even if its made from 20$ in material.. Would love to hear other methods if around...


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## martyn111 (Jun 16, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> I don't see anything else that can offer anything similar without cyanide.



Try Hokes book and reading the past posts about refining using acids rather than cyanide. Go to lasersteves website and watch the excellent videos showing how to put the theory into practice and how to do it safely. 
When you have done that you will realise why you have been told to save your money, you don't need to spend 600 usd when a couple of decent beakers and the correct chemicals will complete the task for you.


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## ArsenRefineries (Jun 16, 2011)

I did read that book. Not 100% but a good skimming  and read through the forums a lot and watched every you tube vid I could find on it. Seen steve's video but not the site, hard to take a guy who calls himself "laser" anything seriously  but great vid and sure guy too... The acid method I have had success with and success with trouble shooting and improvising a technique I haven't seen used yet. Just the regia method, I prefer a lye bathe before nitric just to save some on acid costs. Also I don't like urea, poor unmeasurable conflicting results. I hate instructions like add a pinch... Instead of urea I prefer to boil it down few times, add water, filter, then precipitate. Here in Canada though "little brother" has put restrictions on the purchase of acids. You can't even buy sulfuric here as drain opener anymore. To get nitric here I have to register a business or I met an American gent. who will ship me a 200L barrel of it for around 1400$ witch includes freight shipping. and 400$ barrel deposit. Works out anyway to about 7$ a liter like that. Not too bad... 
I'm schooled for industrial mechanic too. Sure a simple system with breakers is not too hard to duplicate. A car for example may only be 300$ in materials.. I don't have molds, mills, lathes... So there may be 600$ in value for me even though its only made with cheap plastic as I could not get even plastic from crude oil with my set up, let alone a meaningful or useful shape. 
I see now here people are getting decent results from the simplicity shor system. Herd have to process it twice to get four 9's but it works none the less. 
Thanks I see you guys are trying to save me some bucks I'd rather spend them though and have clean simple station designed for that purpose then trying to use a lasagna dish or some other back yard set up. I can build some quality with my background and all, but I can pay someone to do it too. Besides that's just business. As a refiner someone might pay me 15% on what might work out to 15$ in actual costs to refine. Depending on the quantity the commissions could be huge... I don't feel I'd be ripping that customer off, I can show him value... 
Reverse plating just seemed like so much less hassle than the gallons of acids, was just fishing for some experience sharing with these i guess.


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## qst42know (Jun 16, 2011)

Your shor simplicity system from their own instructions is strictly for 12k gold. Not 10k, not 14k, you must alloy to 12k. It's not suited to run gold filled, plate, or e-scrap. It has been a while since I read the instructions but it is very limited as to what you can use it for. To much silver in your alloy and you are done with no recourse. To avoid the inflexibility alone is worth the effort. Would you have to turn work away because it didn't suit your single tool?

Hold on to your wallet and invest in some reading here on the forum. There are multiple methods for any material you may encounter.


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## dtectr (Jun 17, 2011)

A single post is fine, Arsen - any more & you seem over eager. Enough people here have been screwed over by Shor to be swayed by a plethora of vigorous responses.
I'm beginning to think that Arsen refineries is somehow connected with Shor - (2nd post - almost identical bull) they spin everything back with poor syntax & grammar to "Shor is _Good!_" (or is it "_God"_?)
Please, post in a single thread, if you have nothing new to say.


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## Harold_V (Jun 17, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> I see the shor system. It uses a salt electrolyte instead of cyanide or acid. Anyone had any success or know of nay success with this product? Seems to be much less problematic then some of the other methods and no hazmat...


Yes, it's just wonderful. So much so that those that get suckered in to their diatribe end up on this forum looking for ways to salvage their materials because the claims made don't live up to reality. It gets even worse when you try to replace some of their magic gee wiz chemicals that are often sold at outrageous prices. 

Everything you need to know to refine precious metals with good success can be found in Hoke's book---and you don't have to buy any trick substances or gadgets to do the job. 

Read the forum. 

Read Hoke. 

Did I mention you should read Hoke?

Harold


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## Harold_V (Jun 17, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> Instead of urea I prefer to boil it down few times,


I prefer you lose the notion that you "boil it down". No one in their right mind boils gold bearing solutions---that's how you lose values. Please refrain from using that kind of wording when you are referencing evaporation. 


> Thanks I see you guys are trying to save me some bucks I'd rather spend them though and have clean simple station designed for that purpose then trying to use a lasagna dish or some other back yard set up.


Do try to keep that in mind when things go south. Do not return to this forum looking for advice to bail you out of a mess. If you can't see the wisdom in not getting hooked to a system that uses "proprietary" reagents, you should also man up to the mistakes and take your lumps accordingly. If you don't have enough respect for the advice you are given here, why should any of the readers try to help when you ignore good and useful advice? 



> I can build some quality with my background and all, but I can pay someone to do it too. Besides that's just business. As a refiner someone might pay me 15% on what might work out to 15$ in actual costs to refine. Depending on the quantity the commissions could be huge... I don't feel I'd be ripping that customer off, I can show him value...
> Reverse plating just seemed like so much less hassle than the gallons of acids, was just fishing for some experience sharing with these i guess.


Before you start knitting little booties, don't you thing it might be to your advantage to know what you're talking about first? If you think you can buy a trick product and find yourself in business, you are going to be sadly mistaken. You'll come to understand that you can't market your end product, so it will be sold as scrap. Rarely does a home refiner gain the respect of the industry in the way of being an accepted source of pure gold. 

Let me give you a little advice---and it comes free of charge. Stop making decisions about everything about which you know nothing, and start reading, so you gain enough knowledge to enable you to make meaningful decisions. Otherwise, you're going to quickly become an inflamed boil on the backside of this forum, which we will lance in order to relieve our pain. 

You can get a leg up on this advice by reading Hoke's book---and reviewing the forum. 

Harold


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## ArsenRefineries (Jun 17, 2011)

A wise man learns from his mistakes. A wiser man learns from the mistakes of others. Not sure what to address here harold. what part dosent make sense? Don't mistake new for stupid.... I have read his book. Note it was not written by a chemist either. Note too I have helped those who a PhD chemist could not. I don't want at all a bytch off. I can find 100 places for that... Science is built on repeatable results, was just wanting to compare with others... If you have experience with this device only please share. If not you shouldn't even be paying attention to it in the first place. My regia is different then those found here or on any other forum. It is a collection of experience from others + my own expertise. It is as follows. Lye bath, then rinse, then nitric, then rinse, then regia, heat to almost a molasses syrup consistency, add HCl, repeat, add 2X the volume of H2O, any remaining silver will precipitate as a nitrate, filter then precipitate gold with Sodium metabisulfite, filter(decant), then add ammonia to precipitate platinum first, then palladium will fall out. Part of this method is based on Hooke results and the link to read that book was found here too. When warming to get the nitric out too it can be run though a liebag condenser and recover your unused nitric along with your PM's if so inclined... 
Most cost effective way I've found. Agreed the "boiling" was poor choice of words. I don't know of any experts who use Urea. The"boiling" though don't heat that much is simply to eliminate nitric acid before precipitation. When/if it starts to boil in fact reduce heat... Excuse me I forget sometimes how technical these words can be. 
This method though uses gallons of hazardous materials but is clean, easy to follow and duplicate. Was hoping to pool some of the simplicity sytsem results though as I dont have much to weigh and compare as is. Have seen some though who do get good results from it. Who said things went south besides harold? I'm getting good results... I didnt ask for any of your advice, infact i keep responding to yours with better advice... This is how we grow as a whole... BTW I did fail English Detectr and if you want to criticize my grammar we will be here all day. Though I did get 98% in math and 104% in physics.... gotta love bones q's  I did not ask or seek anybodies advice here. Just wanted to compare finished results... Cheers happy refining!


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## Harold_V (Jun 17, 2011)

The use of lye is discussed by Hoke, so that's not something new.. but we tend to ignore its use because it's so damaging and unforgiving of the eyes. While it can be beneficial, there's not much it can do that a good incineration won't accomplish, which is a subject that you have yet to discuss. 

Hoke is not a he. She was the daughter of Samual Hoke, a well respected chemist/metallurgist and expert, in his day, on the platinum metals. The Hoke torch was named in his honor. 

Don't get the idea that we don't appreciate good input. That's not at all what we're about---we're here to learn and teach, but what we try to teach is what is common practice. We want our readers to achieve a level of success, and to do so safely, without spoiling the environment. I would hope that you understand that the new guy in has more than enough trouble with the harebrained ideas that have been promoted on the internet without you jumping in with your revolutionary methods, some of which are highly questionable. That, by the way, is nothing new to the forum. We've had all kinds of well meaning individuals promote their methods here, often methods that work, but poorly. An example of which might be the person that insisted that gold be recovered from solution by the use of copper. Works great---it's just not selective. Sort of defeats the purpose if your objective is refining. 

For now, what would be a good idea is for you to reign in your wild comments and get to know and understand the workings of this forum. We don't claim to know it all, but we do claim to keep people out of trouble by using known and proven methods of refining. To that end, we pretty much demand that the new guy in read Hoke---if for no other reason, so they will begin to understand testing, and to understand the language that is commonly used on this forum. Right now, you are an unknown in this field. If you have something to offer, it will be more welcome when you have established credibility with the readers. You won't accomplish that by being abstinent-----you will only insure that your stay here is brief. I recommend you pull back and withhold comments until you have a firm understanding of what we do, and how it's done. 

So then, sit back, relax, read the forum, and read Hoke. I'm not the least bit interested in what you think you know--it's like being in a foreign country in this case. You must learn to speak the language we speak here---and if that's too big of a demand, you'll find you won't be welcome for long. Once we understand you and your objective, some of your comments may be welcome. Right now, by the comments posted in response to your posts, it's obvious they are not. We try to keep this forum free of rancor. You're not helping in that endeavor. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Jun 17, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> A wise man learns from his mistakes. A wiser man learns from the mistakes


No one learns anything by talking. 



> If you have experience with this device only please share. If not you shouldn't even be paying attention to it in the first place.


Please note that I am one of the moderators on this forum. I expect you to pay attention to what I say, even if you don't agree. If you think you are the sole judge of what I should, or should not read here, or respond to, you're not going to last beyond your next irrational post. 

I am now officially putting you on notice. Reign in your mouth and get a new attitude about this forum. You will not come here and be disruptive. You will observe that which you are expected to observe, and that's not open for discussion. 

Harold


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## ArsenRefineries (Jun 17, 2011)

did anybody read my question at all?
I don't care if you don't like shor. I don't like shor. I just wanted to compare results with their salt reverse plating method and typical or common place cyanide methods of reverse electroplating. I see another posted about being screwed over by shor... I agree. I know Subzero is only sodium Nitrate. I don't agree with shor's business
model. This wasn't the request or idea of my post. 
The simplicity system dosent use toxic chemicals, was wondering what other results were to compare... Thats just healthy science. a collection of facts to see were the evidence points you. The Gold Bud system costs 1500$ and uses cyanide which can kill you if not treated properly. For 600$ a system that uses salt instead seems more attractive. Over priced, poorly made maybe, everything is worth what its purchaser is willing to pay. I don't want a debate over their quality. I see another user had bought one and immediately realized he can build a better unit "industrial" machine cheaper. I don't argue this point or have any relevant data to weight my options with. My hope for this post was to see what results folks where getting from this system. Ms Hooke(not Mr excuse me) dose not go in to much detail at all about this method and none what so ever about another method besides using cyanide solutions.
Yes pick me apart! But offer some reasoning. I'm no shor fan either. In the same respect though I dont see any other models.
I wanted only results so i can compare results with the best method I've found. Sorry Harold I didnt mean you shouldn't read this or offer what you can. I do value and appreciate what you have to offer. This forum alone is the reason I read Hooke's book at all. Though here if you have not used this system you to as I have nothing to weight your opinions with and offer. Pls stop telling me about the same result for 100$ in breakers and parts at the hardware store. I can get the same results from 25 cents worth of acid as 25$ of specialty subzero... What are your results using this system? The only thing I am seeking in this post... Subzreo/Simplicity sytem are 2 very different set-ups. I know shor suxs... sodium nitrate(subzero) is no nitric acid substitute. As far as the simplicity sytem goes though only results I have found and on this forum are good. 3 nines achieved through one step only, much better than the acid method. Even hooke recomends reverse eletro plating as the way of the future. Just wanted to weigh results...


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## Lou (Jun 17, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> A wise man learns from his mistakes. A wiser man learns from the mistakes of others. Not sure what to address here harold. what part dosent make sense? Don't mistake new for stupid.... I have read his book. Note it was not written by a chemist either. Note too I have helped those who a PhD chemist could not. I don't want at all a bytch off. I can find 100 places for that... Science is built on repeatable results, was just wanting to compare with others... If you have experience with this device only please share. If not you shouldn't even be paying attention to it in the first place. My regia is different then those found here or on any other forum. It is a collection of experience from others + my own expertise. It is as follows. Lye bath, then rinse, then nitric, then rinse, then regia, heat to almost a molasses syrup consistency, add HCl, repeat, add 2X the volume of H2O, * any remaining silver will precipitate as a nitrate*, filter then precipitate gold with Sodium metabisulfite, filter(decant), then add *ammonia* to precipitate platinum first, then palladium will fall out. Part of this method is based on Hooke results and the link to read that book was found here too. When warming to get the nitric out too it can be run though a liebag condenser and recover your unused nitric along with your PM's if so inclined...
> Most cost effective way I've found. Agreed the "boiling" was poor choice of words. I don't know of any experts who use Urea. The"boiling" though don't heat that much is simply to eliminate nitric acid before precipitation. When/if it starts to boil in fact reduce heat... Excuse me I forget sometimes how technical these words can be.
> This method though uses gallons of hazardous materials but is clean, easy to follow and duplicate. Was hoping to pool some of the simplicity sytsem results though as I dont have much to weigh and compare as is. Have seen some though who do get good results from it. Who said things went south besides harold? I'm getting good results... I didnt ask for any of your advice, infact i keep responding to yours with better advice... This is how we grow as a whole... BTW I did fail English Detectr and if you want to criticize my grammar we will be here all day. Though I did get 98% in math and 104% in physics.... gotta love bones q's  I did not ask or seek anybodies advice here. Just wanted to compare finished results... Cheers happy refining!




I think you need to re-visit Hoke and instead of _skimming_, you should _peruse_. While no one knows it all, it's clear from your "method" that you certainly don't know enough to start mixing chemicals and expect not to get hurt, let alone achieve the results you desire. Remember that adage "measure twice, cut once"? I'd suggest following that concept with the refining/reclamation field by reading something until you understand what you need to do from memory, and why you're doing it.

There are ways to get high purity gold in excess of commercially pure from a single precipitation. Much depends on the other metals and contaminants.


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## dtectr (Jun 17, 2011)

I wanted to add a point, with Harold's permission, that he is too modest to keep repeating. 
He came from a very humble background, but through the process if refining, was able to retire comfortably ("wealthy" in my book) at 54 years of age, after only 28 years of self employment.

If you're pursuing financial success in a given field, follow winners. The advice he gives for free is (pardon the puns) GOLDEN & can be TAKEN TO THE BANK.

I wish you success.
dtectr


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## patnor1011 (Jun 17, 2011)

There is not a magic station working for everything. What other try to explain to you is that there are plethora of method used for various types of refining. Yes, it is gold but it comes in many forms. Some process is good for karat gold yet not suitable for gold filled or plated or electronic scrap or dental appliances...
Your method cant achieve 100% results if applied to different materials.
Also when you say what you can get from a man who called himself Laser will you elaborate on your nick? Arsen? :lol:


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## shadybear (Jun 17, 2011)

maybe you should buy a platiummill too!!!


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## jimdoc (Jun 17, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> I didnt ask for any of your advice, infact i keep responding to yours with better advice... This is how we grow as a whole...



I sure am glad to have an expert here now, that can respond to this forum's advice with better advice. Just kidding, I can't even follow your ramblings Arsen.

Jim


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## Palladium (Jun 18, 2011)

The industrial machine you are talking about is probably the one I am currently redesigning. I currently have over two years in the design and research of the prototype I am building and I haven’t even started building it yet. I have redesigned it so many times I wonder if I will ever get it down to a working model. Sounds simple right? I don’t think you have any idea as to the complexities of this science. And they call it the simplicity system. Rotfl I don’t know what answers you are looking for from the forum. Is the science behind the machine correct? Yep! 100%. Is the design of the machine correct? Not in my opinion but I guess that all depends on what time period you’re referencing your technology to. Will it work? For a minute it will anyway. Does it have flaws? A few. Does it have potential as far as marketability? Yep, if built right and it works it does. As far as rave reviews from anyone on the shor system, I can’t think of maybe one I have seen here. Would I recommend the technology? Yes I would. Would I recommend shor? Hell no!!
It’s my personal goal in life to break up that little monopoly they have going on that machine. Would I spend $500-600 on a machine if it had the potential to make me money? Yep, in a minute! Would I spend it on this machine? Probably not.


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## ArsenRefineries (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks Palladium. Yeah exactly what I was looking for. I did lol and read through your post though about its "industrial" strength. I was going to recommend acklands grainger too for your power supply but see you found one already. That kind of stuff I know quite well. College and worked as Industrial mechanic. Have designed a few simple machines complete with parts lists for a shop I worked at too. Let me know if your stuck. I like your idea though. Would be nice to get the cadiallac instead of the chrysler especially when dealing with PM's.


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## Oz (Jun 18, 2011)

Arsenrefineries, 

I have refrained from replying to your posts as I have yet to figure you out. Half of what you say seems as though you are trying to promote something and have a hidden agenda. The other half of what you write makes limited sense to me as to the direction you wish readers to follow, or how you think the procedures you espouse “should” work as per your direction. I think the forum has been very indulgent to say the least in listening to what you have had to say so far. 

Since you wished to promote your knowledge of ancient Roman history by mentioning Syrus, Publilius, it is worth noting that what he was best known for was his mime performances. Mimicking others actions but without the ability of speech. 

Reading some of what you have written on the forum (not all) it is clear to anyone that has refined for a living that you are mimicking in your words what you have read, but have not actually done by your own hand, much like a mime. 

That is not a wise thing for us to allow on this forum considering how dangerous and lethal precious metals chemistry can be. I would not want a new member to read what you have written and nothing else before attempting precious metals refining. 

I would suggest 2 paths for you. 

Only talk about procedures that you have done by your own hand, or take a page out of your own book and be as silent as a mime until you have read for some time what is written on this forum. Restrict your questions to what has already been written here if a post is not clear to you. 

I truly understand that in your world or social group you may have been an authority as to refining. But now you are on a forum that has members that have refined for a lifetime as their primary source of income. I am actually surprised that you have not been banned as of yet if only for the reason that much of your procedures make little sense and may prove hazardous to the uninformed. 

Before you reply to me think about what is important to “you”. Are you trying to promote yourself as a person of knowledge, or are you here to learn? 

I will listen to any calm, rational, and professional reply you may have. If you are argumentative or continue as you have, I will ban you from the forum. 

There is nothing wrong with being a mime. Much of what I know about precious metal refining came from mimicking others successes, and keeping my mouth shut. 

Oz 

PS; I take great umbrage to your derisive opinion regarding Lasersteve solely because you do not like his screen name (who are you to talk being 1 letter off from being arsonrefineries?). Had you spent some time reading this forum before you started pontificating with your dogmatic viewpoints, you would have realized that Steve has been very unselfish with what he has done for the general forum membership. It is your loss if you do not heed his advice and counsel.


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## Palladium (Jun 18, 2011)

Yeah i caught the " How can you trust anybody with the name laser in their name" remark to. Don’t judge a book by it’s ………
Good thing for me i mimic a duck then.

AFLAC !!!!!
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## ArsenRefineries (Jun 18, 2011)

Lol. Excuse me again. Thought I had already addressed that adequately enough. I did not it appears. I just found it comical. I by no means meant it to be malicious. If You where going to meet somebody for a property investment and they introduced themselves as say Buffalo Bill, you wouldn't find that a little comical at least in that back of your mind? I didn't Judge him for that though. Did say I found his video and site to be right on. 
Also I believe and said in another post it is very admirable for any of you guys to share your expertise freely with anyone. 1000 years ago Baghdad used to be the worlds hub for trade. Mankind saw its most significant advancements because of the free exchange of ideas'. I would not have gotten as far as I have without the free help. I thought too it would be nice to have a sort of tip cup attached to the videos and tutorial and perhaps paypal, to show your appreciation. 
My very comfortable living now is being generated by things I've learn from tutorials such as Laser Steve's. The free link I found here to Hooke's book and so on.
For this I am greatly thankful. When I first joined myspace I little programming knowledge. Few folks like Howard and LaserSteve's that offered free tutorials and responded to questions, and recommend books for me..., were listed in my hero's list.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 18, 2011)

It sounds like (maybe - we'll see) you have gone through your "adjusting period" on the forum. If so, welcome to the forum! Search, study, learn, do, ask specific questions, and do it all again and again, in that order. Everyone has to go through it. There are no shortcuts. The Shor machine seems like one, but it really isn't.

I have always looked at the Shor machine as a "recovery" or a "separation" system, rather than a "refining" system. Although the chemicals used are fairly innocent, it will still take the same old acids and other chemicals to purify (refine) the metals involved. Without purifying to the known standards, you haven't finished the job.


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## retzerj (Jun 23, 2011)

i am curintly looking into both metheds and judging what works and doesint but all sed and done most recycling co. use a blast bethed before an acid bath to remove low temp contaminets


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## dtectr (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm sorry, but if you think you can make a wiser judgment on "which method works best" based on your limited experience, both with refining precious metals, & clearly, the English language, or at the very least, SpellChecker, you clearly are .... {pre-edited by me - unbelievable}. 

READ OZ'S POST ABOVE, PLEASE, BEFORE LITTERING THIS THREAD FURTHER.

Maybe it should be locked, & we could ALL move on to something constructive ...?


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## ArsenRefineries (Jun 24, 2011)

That's cool Retzrj. Please ignore the 5 bloggers who have no relevant experience. It's like asking for an opinion on Ford and Chrysler owners are the one's that keep replying. Great approach and attitude too. The scientific method I believe that is, despite its unpopularity with Detectr, I think you are on the right track anyway. 
Not much for you to play with though as far as the chemical method. I like Lye because its cheap. Cheaper than dirt if you compare it to some expensive top-soils. Prolongs my acids. It can be dangerous though. So can gasoline if not handled with care. I have herd of other incinerating or baking their parts first to prolong acids as well, I'm just not set-up to treat the exhaust here. Herd about 1150 F is ideal for incinerating before nitric bath. 
I like to heat to a syrup consistency and dilute with HCl a couple times and again with water. Filter then precipitate . It's slower that Urea but I am eliminating other contaminates rather then adding more. Had some difficulties with Urea in the past and find this technique less troublesome. 
Next is precipitation. There is sodium metabisulfite, Zinc, or copper powder. Haven't tried Zinc yet, others are working just fine... 
The simplicity system is making gold chloride I'm assuming since its a salt medium. Herd more or less it works just not that well put together. I know Palladium is working on a truly industrial model. 
Anyone find a similar technique by another manufacturer? Or perhaps find success with this method in a different setting?


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## Oz (Jun 24, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> Please ignore the 5 bloggers who have no relevant experience. It's like asking for an opinion on Ford and Chrysler owners are the one's that keep replying. Great approach and attitude too.


Arsenrefineries, 
You did not specify which 5 bloggers, however you have received comments in this thread from Harold, Lou, Myself, then GSP (trying to give you the benefit of doubt after my above post). Considering the fact we are all moderators here it is interesting to hear that no “relevant experience” has been present. 

This leads me to 2 conclusions. 

First, that you are way more qualified in this field than anyone else here, so how could we be of assistance to you? 

Second, given your vast superior knowledge, we have become a burden upon your intellect and time. 

Given these 2 facts I think it is in your best interest for me to remove you from the forum so you do not waste further effort in trying to help those of us that will likely never be capable of achieving what you are trying to teach us. 

You are banned for 2 weeks. If I see you post again after that without your very first post being an apology, you will be banned permanently. I do not care if you were the Holy Grail of gold refining (NOT), no member will be allowed to be disrespectful to the management of this forum!

PS; I changed my mind. When I went to impose your 2 week suspension, I noticed that Harold had already given you a formal warning to shape up or be banned. 

Goodbye


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## butcher (Jun 24, 2011)

sometimes we are too smart for our own good, he sounded intellegent, but was not smart enough to stick around and learn sumthin.


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## nickvc (Jun 25, 2011)

Well I can't say I'm shocked.
His warning from Harold should have alerted him to mind his manners.

One of the rules of the forum is to show respect for other members.......and especially the moderators!
If your going to call someone out make sure it's done politely and with sound reasoning and then you will be listened to and receive reasoned replies.
Snide digs and ignorant rantings have no place on here and thankfully the management seem to uphold that view with great diligence.
Thank you all!


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## Harold_V (Jun 25, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> Next is precipitation. There is sodium metabisulfite, Zinc, or copper powder. Haven't tried Zinc yet, others are working just fine...


Being banned by Oz is the best thing that can happen in this instance. The very notion that ANYONE that claims expertise in refining, yet makes reference to using non-discriminating precipitants is certainly of no use to the forum. 

We try to teach procedures that yield acceptable results. I fully expect that the least educated readers, here, understand that copper and/or zinc do not offer that advantage, but to have a self proclaimed "expert" make such assertions tends to send mixed signals----much like those that insist on using the term "boil" when they intend to convey the message of evaporation. 

I hope readers learn something from this thread. Be polite, and learn to use proper terminology. You will be called on the carpet if either of these are ignored. 

Harold


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## Oz (Jun 25, 2011)

nickvc said:


> If your going to call someone out make sure it's done politely and with sound reasoning and then you will be listened to and receive reasoned replies


Nick, that was very well worded. 

I do not claim to be an authority in refining, however I may know 1 or 2 things about it, most of my knowledge is from reading here. I will always welcome any correction or disagreement to anything I have to say or have posted, as long as they are polite and professional. I will be the first to say that I do not have all the answers. 

I try to reply to members with the same level of respect as they have shown to the forum membership at large in “their” posts. For that reason some of what I type may sound as though I am being too harsh in my words. Oddly enough, I am always pleased to find out when I am in the wrong in these things, and if such is the case I try to readily admit it. Such circumstances usually mean there was a misunderstanding or revelation on my part or the others, which results in us having a new productive member to the forum.


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## Bizness4you (Aug 8, 2011)

It is like magic here "poof be gone"


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## Harold_V (Aug 9, 2011)

Bizness4you said:


> It is like magic here "poof be gone"


Yes, it is! 8) 

Our leader has exercised great wisdom in appointing a select group of us to keep watch over the forum. We do that with pleasure. We expect readers to use good sense, to not post dangerous procedures, to be mannerly, and to not create distractions. Profanity is discouraged. 

Each of us has a life and death control over readers, which we use with reckless abandon when necessary. We do not "bargain" with ill-behaving readers. They are admonished to remain polite, and to state their position with respect. If they do not heel, but choose to escalate instead, they are gone. 

We do not tolerate personal attacks, especially towards moderators. They are to be shown respect for their dedication of their time to the forum, all without hope of reaping a reward. 

Harold


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## gold57 (Aug 10, 2011)

ArsenRefineries said:


> I see the shor system. It uses a salt electrolyte instead of cyanide or acid. Anyone had any success or know of nay success with this product? Seems to be much less problematic then some of the other methods and no hazmat...



I am new here. See electrolytic system, called RefineIt, searched and did not find anything, but discovered this forum. Did you know anything about it? They claim it can refine everything from 6K to 14K.


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## jimdoc (Aug 10, 2011)

gold57 said:


> ArsenRefineries said:
> 
> 
> > I see the shor system. It uses a salt electrolyte instead of cyanide or acid. Anyone had any success or know of nay success with this product? Seems to be much less problematic then some of the other methods and no hazmat...
> ...



You are better off forgetting about any "systems" to refine your gold. If you want to learn how to refine precious metals you found the right place. Just study the forum for a while and save your money until you have a plan. 

Jim


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## Palladium (Aug 10, 2011)

gold57 said:


> ArsenRefineries said:
> 
> 
> > I see the shor system. It uses a salt electrolyte instead of cyanide or acid. Anyone had any success or know of nay success with this product? Seems to be much less problematic then some of the other methods and no hazmat...
> ...




Link ????


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## Palladium (Aug 10, 2011)

Oh for the love of god !!!! :roll: :roll: 


http://store.goldrefiningsystems.com/category/59-electrolytic-refining.aspx


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## jimdoc (Aug 10, 2011)

I think the Hoke's System is the best. Look that one up.

Jim


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## Palladium (Aug 10, 2011)

Wooooo Hooooo..... I made the first post on there forum. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 

http://store.goldrefiningsystems.com/boards/f/2/new-products-for-gold-refining.aspx


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## gold57 (Aug 10, 2011)

jimdoc said:


> gold57 said:
> 
> 
> > ArsenRefineries said:
> ...


But wouldn't it be right to use something people already invested their time and knowledge? Here I should learn what those who are producing different systems probably already learned. We ride bicycles we do not build. Of course "system" may be not very good, or expensive or else.


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## gold57 (Aug 10, 2011)

Palladium said:


> gold57 said:
> 
> 
> > ArsenRefineries said:
> ...



http://store.goldrefiningsystems.com


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## gold57 (Aug 10, 2011)

Palladium said:


> Wooooo Hooooo..... I made the first post on there forum. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
> 
> http://store.goldrefiningsystems.com/boards/f/2/new-products-for-gold-refining.aspx


 You already found them


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## Palladium (Aug 10, 2011)

Save your money. You would be better of with Shor and that ain't saying much for their product either. If you want to refine their is no magic machine. But if you want to find out, then take your chances.


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## rewalston (Aug 10, 2011)

gold57 said:


> But wouldn't it be right to use something people already invested their time and knowledge? Here I should learn what those who are producing different systems probably already learned. We ride bicycles we do not build. Of course "system" may be not very good, or expensive or else.



I personally would rather learn the "magic" behind the scenes here on the forum than to use a system that I have no idea how it works or why. At least with our astute senior members will tell you why something is happened and the reason behind it. And MOST if not all will help you through trouble spots as long as you have followed the guidelines about reading Hoke and the posts. There is a lot of free help on this board. If you purchase one of these "magic" systems if you run into a problem with them, there is hardly any tech support offered. All the tech support you will ever need is right here free of charge AND you don't have to buy a $500 system to get it.

Rusty


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## Geo (Aug 29, 2011)

AFLAC???? :lol: :lol: :lol: so very funny.


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## philddreamer (Aug 29, 2011)

Maybe when the Beatles wrote The Magical Mystery Tour, iShor was the "trip"!
I know a person that brought me his shor chemicals in exchange for refining some material. He gave up with shor because he ran into problems, called them & their response, "send us $200.00 for another chemical & more instructions!

This is a great forum! Thank you all!


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## gemcutter (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi all,
Brand new here! In fact this is my first post. I just wanted to give a big "thank you!" to the people who posted on this topic. I was considering buying the simplicity system. I will be saving my dough.


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## philddreamer (Oct 4, 2011)

Welcome to the forum Gemcutter!!! 8)


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## mikesmadness (Oct 5, 2011)

I have to thank all of you for dissuading me from Shor!!! I had the check filled out! I read a few hundred posts on the topic and tore it up. I have made my first stripping cell which I patterned after LaserSteves video and all worked as it should. I now have my first batch sealed and put away until I can figure out what the next step is. All advice/comments will be gratefully accepted! This is awesome!


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## Geo (Oct 5, 2011)

let the powder settle, this could take a few days to get it all without diluting the acid. siphon or decant acid from the container being careful not to pick up the powder that has settled on the bottom. do not try to collect all the acid because it is impossible without taking some powder. use a container that's large enough to hold the powder and a couple of quarts of water. a 1 gallon glass jar works fine. put two quarts of water in the container then slowly add the acid/powder mix as sulfuric acid mixed with water creates heat quickly. after adding all the powder to the water rinse the container of any remaining powder and add to the jar. let all the solids settle till the liquid becomes clear (24) hours. the liquid should be a deep aqua marine green. decant this liquid into a container that will hold all liquid without spilling (plastic milk jug will work for this). this liquid will be evaporated down to collect the sulfuric acid for further use in the cell. replace the water in the jar with the powder and again let all solids settle (24) hours. after this settling the water should be a light lime green color. decant this solution into another plastic jug to be treated and discarded as it has very little acid to reclaim. repeat the last step until the rinse water is clear after settling 24 hours. decant last wash and treat with sodium bicarbonate and discard. the powder has been properly rinsed is now ready to be dissolved by whichever method you are comfortable with.


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## Mschindler300 (Oct 15, 2011)

I to would like to say Thank you for changing my mind on Shor Recovery I almost bought one in 2009 when i join this forum and found out how bogus it was now today Im running a small business. I may not post much but thats because I spent countless hours in the background of this forum searching and reading every post i could to learn from others mistakes I will never be knowledgeable in this field Because there always something new to learn. (Im always on here at least once a day maybe i should start posting more LOL)

Remember Keep your Minds open as there always something to learn 

Thank You
Matthew Schindler


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## Palladium (Oct 15, 2011)

Welcome back Matthew.


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## butcher (Oct 15, 2011)

Matthew.
You say you will not be knowledgeable in this field?
You sound very knowledgeable from what you stated in your post.
Matthew you should post, many new readers can learn from your experience.

In my opinion the difference in an expert and novice is the expert has learned he doe's NOT know everything, in so doing he learns.


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## nickvc (Oct 16, 2011)

> In my opinion the difference in an expert and novice is the expert has learned he doe's NOT know everything, in so doing he learns.




As usual Butcher straight to the point and very accurate, couldn't have said it better myself 8)


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## magadetector (Nov 8, 2011)

I own the simplicity machine no issues? haven't used on ewast yet.


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## Harold_V (Nov 9, 2011)

magadetector said:


> I own the simplicity machine no issues? haven't used on ewast yet.


Would you please restate your comment in such a way that it makes sense? I have absolutely no clue if you're asking a question or are making a comment. 

Harold


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## magadetector (Nov 10, 2011)

Sorry i don't feel like getting bullied like the last guy (no more comments Im just hear to read)


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## Harold_V (Nov 10, 2011)

magadetector said:


> Sorry i don't feel like getting bullied like the last guy (no more comments Im just hear to read)


To be perfectly clear, your post made absolutely no sense. 

No one is bullying you, and I resent the accusation. 

If you can't put words together in such a fashion that it makes sense to our readers, I strongly advise you to follow your suggestion that you are here to read only. If you post, I expect it to be with manners, and to be clear on the points you raise. Do not post anything that can be remotely construed as aggression, or your visit here will be most unpleasant. 

This forum is unlike virtually all other places you may visit on the internet. Here, we demand acceptable behavior and language. Those that resist don't last. 

Harold


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## butcher (Nov 11, 2011)

magadetector,
Welcome to the forum,
You stated:
"I own the simplicity machine no issues? haven’t used on ewast yet."

Try using spell check, and rereading your posts, to see if you understand them, many of us struggle to write, where others can understand and read what we are trying to say. do not take offence by the comments of our Moderators, they keep this forum running like a well oiled machine, after your here for a while you too will appreciate what they do for us.

I understand this as you use the shor system and you are pleased with the results, and that you have not used it on electronic scrap.

I am kind of unsure what the Shor simplicity machine is, is this the one that uses electrolysis and a concentrated salt water solution through a membrane cup?

I have never tried that process, but I think it would work well for certain materials if run properly, and you can build your own machine without being tied to a company like shor.

these systems that shor puts out usually are based on common ways of doing things, they just try and make them secrets and keep there chemicals secret so you are tied to them through your wallet, I am sure many of their systems work if done properly, and some of them could be improved upon, but you will learn here on the forum what will work and why it works, you will not be pulled around by your wallet, and you will find many ways to recover or refine, and learn which processes to use when and why.


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## cobrawearer (Nov 12, 2011)

butcher, I stopped counting grammar, spelling, and punctuation mistakes in your post after I got to 10. Still understood you.


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## Oz (Nov 12, 2011)

Butcher has a real talent for explaining things in most disciplines to the common man/woman that are otherwise hard for them to grasp. You will also find he is one of the best here as to building things from scavenged parts, in particular electrical components. I have asked his counsel more than once in that regard. 

Hat tip to butcher.


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## butcher (Nov 12, 2011)

cobrawearer, 
Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I thought I was doing "perty good".

I guess spell check does not catch all the mistakes I make.

Kidding aside I do appreciate the forum for helping me with my English class lessons.

I am 54 year old, can read and write now, but I graduated from high school and could not read, I learned later after school.

Did not use the computer like most people did, until I came to this great forum, so I am also computer illiterate.

This forum is teaching me more than recovery and refining metals.

Hope you can be patient with my grammar and point out how I can do better.

I am not stupid just still learning (will till I die).

Spell checked by word.


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## Palladium (Nov 13, 2011)

Your doing great Butcher and i enjoy your post as much as i enjoy slaughtering the English language myself.


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## Harold_V (Nov 13, 2011)

Butcher, in my opinion, is one of the most valuable members of this forum. He has made monumental strides in his ability to converse with readers, and provides well founded opinions, instruction and guidance. He also has one characteristic that is very endearing---his ability to speak with others in a non-confrontational way. He's one of my heroes. 

When the day comes I leave this forum, it will be with a request for Butcher to replace me as a moderator. 

Harold


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## jimmydolittle (Nov 13, 2011)

Harold, I totally agree with you! Butcher's knowledge is right up there.


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## Platdigger (Nov 13, 2011)

Butcher, I thought you were doing more than just "pretty good".
And, you should take those words from Harold as a high honor indeed!
Good job, and keep it up... 8)


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## philddreamer (Nov 13, 2011)

Thank you Butcher!!! 8) 

Phil


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## butcher (Nov 13, 2011)

I put Harold on the top of my list of people who I admire, He has been like a father to the forum and many of us here on the forum in more ways than one, I have always had Great Respect for him although I have never met the man, he stands tall in my mind.


Although a normal guy he has made a tremendous impact I believe not only for many of us here on the forum in helping us, but also on the coming History of the world in general, partly through his work and devotion on the forum and to many of the members personally.

It is an truly an Honor for me that Harold would recommend me to become one of the members of the moderators, I just do not know that I could do as good of a job that our moderators do.

Harold has such a knack of seeing problems before they begin and nipping them in the bud, he is very insightful in many ways, My hope is the forum would never loose Harold We need him so much, this forum would not be this forum if it was not for Harold. Very few people in the world would have the knowledge we have access to today in this field if it was not for Harold, Harold has made a major change to the world.

Harold is a humble man, not full of pride, he may not see it but I do, and I think if I met him and he was this bearded opinionated little ole man, it would not change my opinion of him.


Thankyou jimmydolittle,Platdigger,philddreamer.


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## packrat63 (Nov 27, 2011)

Hello
I have been reading this forum for over a year with nothing to contribuite, until Now. I purchased the Shor system before finding this forum. I had 5 pounds of gold relay contacts that I needed to process. I melted down 2 pounds into a bar and used the Shor system with NO results. I spent about $800 on the system and their supplies. After reading this forum for 1,000 hours and Holk's Book, I produced a 73 gram pure gold button out of the 2 pounds that i had left.
Thanks
Tim


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## butcher (Nov 27, 2011)

packrat63, Tim that is a good chunk of gold, sounds like studying is paying you back, good job.

This is unrelated to your gold, but is related to purifying gold through electrolisis the Emil Wohlwill patent.

Electrolysis pure gold
http://www.google.com/patents/about/625864_EMIL_WOHLWILL.html?id=Gs9EAAAAEBAJ


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## packrat63 (Nov 30, 2011)

Butcher 
That was an excellent article thanks. 115 years ago that must have been a big operation with steam engines. I wonder why he used hydrochloric acid, when Sulfuric is more common in a cell today. 
I forgot to mention one of the Best parts of Shor’s deal. After three weeks of trying to refine with their system, I was tired of wasting my time and materials. So I got out the original box to ship it back. They claimed to have a 30 day money back guarantee. When I got the guarantee out of the box, it stated that it must be in unused (NEW) condition. 
So now I am stuck with a useless system with 2 or 3 gallons of salt water with possibly dissolved gold!
I have decided to make a copper cell out of this item, once I figure out how to handle the salt water.
Tim


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## butcher (Nov 30, 2011)

packrat63,
Just choke it up to the cost of education and move on.

Are you saying you have gold locked up in salt water, (what type of salt?) (chloride’s my guess) I assume, you should have no trouble retrieving the gold if so, even if it was contaminated with other metals.

Give us some details maybe we can help you put it into solution and test it and get the gold back if it is there.

Dilute sulfuric acid is used for electrolysis of copper.
The stripping cell uses concentrated sulfuric acid.


Sulfuric acid is like two different chemical’s (in reactions), depending on it's concentration.

Actually there can be many different types of electrolytes, depending on what your doing, some we can make gases for fuel like hydrogen, or split salts to make chemicals like chlorine (bleach) and sodium hydroxide, or to make batteries to power things.

Gold dissolves in chlorine gas at 200 degrees, (in electrolysis the electricity (moving of electrons with current flow) would split the acid or salt to form chlorine gas at the anode) assisted by the electron transfer this would form gold chloride in solution (same thing we make when we dissolve gold in aqua regia) Emil Wohlwill used Hcl (sometimes also adding other chloride salts like table salt), to generate chlorine at the anode to dissolve gold with the chlorine gas that formed, He would also adjust the amount of free HCL , current density and temperature so as not to have the dangerous chlorine gases evolving from the anode, the Idea was to generate three chlorine with one dissolved gold to form AuCl3 but not excess chlorine that would waste chemicals harm workers and ruin equipment. I believe Shore studied his many patients to form their process (Emil Wohlwill's patent also talked of using other chloride salts in his process like ammonium chloride, but says they can give trouble if platinum was involved) I do not think Shore reinvented the wheel but just changed the spokes some and the name of chemicals involved in their products. Also note that this process was taking almost pure gold anode (95%) and making it very pure, plating it to pure gold cathode and an awful lot of gold electrolyte solution so this system had a lot of gold tied up in the process.
There are more patents Emil Wohlwill and I am guessing his son another Wohlwill had so if your interested search for them to get more details.


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## packrat63 (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree a man must always move forward.
Today I siphoned all the electrolyte from the cell into a five gallon bucket. I have about 4 gallons of dark blue liquid with an ammonia type smell. It has 8 cups of Shors salt in. No residue of any kind in the tank. This item is going to be my new copper plating cell.
Thanks
Tim


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## goldenchild (Dec 1, 2011)

packrat63 said:


> Hello
> I have been reading this forum for over a year with nothing to contribuite, until Now. I purchased the Shor system before finding this forum. I had 5 pounds of gold relay contacts that I needed to process. I melted down 2 pounds into a bar and used the Shor system with NO results. I spent about $800 on the system and their supplies. After reading this forum for 1,000 hours and Holk's Book, I produced a 73 gram pure gold button out of the 2 pounds that i had left.
> Thanks
> Tim



These were solid gold relays?


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## packrat63 (Dec 2, 2011)

No.
They were on a copper arm with a gold alloy pad on the end, where two pads made the connection. These were large high voltage relays. The gold pad was the thickness of a penny and 1\3 the size of a penny with the copper arm about the same thickness. The gold striping cell would take 5 to 10 min for each one and get to hot to use after 3. I cut the pads off as close as possible which ended up being a waste of time. I ended up melting the arms and pads together, pouring shot, then nitric, AR, smb, washed several times then melted the 73 gram button.
Tim


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