# Black sand pyrite sulfides and gold



## im1badpup1

Hi everybody im new to the forum and prospecting. A quick history of myself is ive a long term interest in geology mineralogy and a practising amateur chemist over the last 20years. It doesnt mean im smart or educated though.

Anyway i was recently hunting minerals corundum and garnet and came across an alluvial blacksand deposit. Ive never panned before but took a sample home and panned with a enamel pie tin and lo behold found small and microgold


An idea of scale i put a flake on my fingernail hereView attachment 1



Theres small lead particles also present at the bottom of the pan with the gold.

Ive tested to be sure and it is indeed gold

Ive ordered a goldcube to seperate the free gold for now.

Ive been studying the other material in and around the alluvial black sand deposit and theres more of interest..

Theres a lot of sulfides. Pyrites etc. Both hydrothermal vent deposits and free ore released from vein deposits by weathering. I really could do with some direction in whats the best thing to do with these. In processing them. And the black sand concentrate. Il elaborate on this with some pictures of minerals and streaks in next post


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## im1badpup1

I took a sample of heavy minerals within the black sand layer. The rocks vary in colour mainly grays reds green hue. Almost all are very very dense. I streaked 100 or so for further clues. Ive a multitude of colours from dull blacks lustrous all the way to dull gray and shiny grays. Some red streaks n browns. Ive some what have a yellowish streak too. I cant see with a magnifying glass any gold particles in there.
I broke some rocks open a few days ago. A lot of sulphurous smells and sparks. Some had a very distinct acetic acid smell instead. Vinegary. Now ive attached a pic of sample mineral rocks streaks and the inside of them after splitting. Some have dulled a lot since breaking as they was almost entirely shiny i side but theyve left highlighted shiny sparkly silver veins not particularly visible when i first split them.



Originally i intended to seperate the samples before testing further but in practise yes i could the larger rocks but id be dealing with tons later on pea gravel size so excepting a magnetic itd be very difficult to seperate the majority of smaller sulfide pyrites or whatever they are out.

I researched best as i could the origins of the alluvial material to find relevent data indicating the precious metal contents. This is where i start to get lost and advices would be welcomed.

For example the sulfides in the area of origin have been assayed extensively throughout and ppm reading vary hugely for gold. Its unclear to me when they have stated "an ore sample was taken from quartz vein 6m wide comprised of 5 to 8 pcent sulfides with a ppm value returned of 50ppm of gold present within the sulfides" does this mean the sulfides plus the quartz vein are included in the calculation ppm?

Some facts im certain of when trawling through literally hundreds of research geological documents is the sulfides dominate here in my case as a source of gold. But theyre not the source of the freegold i panned. that source has never been scientifically verified. But the values in sulfides ranging from a few ppm to in exceptional cases over 1800ppm and the confusing ppm calculations ive seen over gold content im interested in exploring the sulfides further.

Is it generally a waste of time processing sulfides and is the usual process to go to the oxide via a roast then smelt or chemically extract at that point?


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## cosmetal

"Anyway i was recently hunting minerals corundum and garnet and came across an alluvial blacksand deposit. Ive never panned before but took a sample home and panned with a enamel pie tin and lo behold found small and microgold"

Is this alluvial black sand deposit along side of a current water source - stream, river, etc. Or is it a old high bank deposit from ancient water action?

Can you post a picture of the deposit? 

James


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## cosmetal

im1badpup1 said:


> I took a sample of heavy minerals within the black sand layer. The rocks vary in colour mainly grays reds green hue. Almost all are very very dense. I streaked 100 or so for further clues. Ive a multitude of colours from dull blacks lustrous all the way to dull gray and shiny grays. Some red streaks n browns. Ive some what have a yellowish streak too. I cant see with a magnifying glass any gold particles in there.
> I broke some rocks open a few days ago. A lot of sulphurous smells and sparks. Some had a very distinct acetic acid smell instead. Vinegary. Now ive attached a pic of sample mineral rocks streaks and the inside of them after splitting. Some have dulled a lot since breaking as they was almost entirely shiny i side but theyve left highlighted shiny sparkly silver veins not particularly visible when i first split them.
> 20171029_085318.jpg
> 
> Originally i intended to seperate the samples before testing further but in practise yes i could the larger rocks but id be dealing with tons later on pea gravel size so excepting a magnetic itd be very difficult to seperate the majority of smaller sulfide pyrites or whatever they are out.
> 
> I researched best as i could the origins of the alluvial material to find relevent data indicating the precious metal contents. This is where i start to get lost and advices would be welcomed.
> 
> For example the sulfides in the area of origin have been assayed extensively throughout and ppm reading vary hugely for gold. Its unclear to me when they have stated "an ore sample was taken from quartz vein 6m wide comprised of 5 to 8 pcent sulfides with a ppm value returned of 50ppm of gold present within the sulfides" does this mean the sulfides plus the quartz vein are included in the calculation ppm?
> 
> Some facts im certain of when trawling through literally hundreds of research geological documents is the sulfides dominate here in my case as a source of gold. But theyre not the source of the freegold i panned. that source has never been scientifically verified. But the values in sulfides ranging from a few ppm to in exceptional cases over 1800ppm and the confusing ppm calculations ive seen over gold content im interested in exploring the sulfides further.
> 
> Is it generally a waste of time processing sulfides and is the usual process to go to the oxide via a roast then smelt or chemically extract at that point?



Are any of the samples in your picture, or any of the heavy minerals within the black sand layer, magnetic?

James


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## cosmetal

"Ive ordered a goldcube to seperate the free gold for now."

Good choice. IMO, a three stack model is sufficient. 

Are you going to use it on site of the deposit? What will be your water source? Even if you set-up as a self-contained operation, you have to get a fair amount of water in there in the first place to set it up. 

Have you screened any of the black sand to determine the most common grain size? The pics of your samples used to create your streaks appear to be rather large.

James


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## im1badpup1

Hi james ive a neodynium in the post with my goldcube. I dont have one to check but... i tried my ctx3030 detector and pinpointer probe and had no signal. The small gray lead and gold gives a signal. None of the sulfide rocks give any signal at all.
Ill post tomorrow on magnetic results its at postoffice to pickup i missed delivery thats all.

The blacksand deposit theres a very fine and dense sand in the pan at the end with the lead and gold. It kind of sets or cements and only pans off in really thin layers. I get some small sulfide pea size in this. The rests black sand lead n gold. On top of that a coarser black sand layer i think is something else n i suspect if anything thats magnetic. Eg iron oxide. Im not an expert on the geology but the chemistry i can tell its a different material. Density. Texture. Coarseness Its behaviour been manipulated. in comparison.

Ill post you a picture or several if you like of the black sand deposit in the next few days when im back there.

About the sulfides. Ive seen massive erratics certainly a few 100kg in size and think theyre hydrothermal in origin. But theres certainly sulfides from volcanic veins and metamorphic origin too. Some still have mother rock on them i can identify as been from a specific area. Theyre far smaller not many have cubic crystalline structures. Some are globular.


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## im1badpup1

Ive just pyrolyised a small piece of one of them larger rocks it gave off a sulpurous smell and left me with redbrown oxide plus tiny unknown prills of a metal. To be fair it may of come off the stainless spoon im not 100%

Ive worked with some materials in the past n have to hand a number of things what will help i think.
Ive the equipment and competence and mercury too hand. Ive worked with making salts of mercury and postreaction recovery of spent hg to recycle so oxidation of sulfides and mercury extractions one way to go.

Ive worked with hypochlorite and TCCA too doing hoffman degradation elimination and reaŕrangement so adapting to a recovery method along this route wouldnt be a bad thing. I dont think no one here who experimented along these lines knew the mechanism of action in naocl -hypochlorite solutions is also controlled by temperature. I worked in cold conditions to favour a particular mechanism temperature control had to be within 2 degrees 12c the hypochlorite was more problematic and prolonged but TCCA swift and convenient. Im going to try a chlorination on some gold flakes and see where i get the desired result conditions from and too. 

Ive made sodium and potassium cyanides before but id rather not its.not a synthesis i like. I can probably make any chemical i cant acquire. Ive access to smelting equipment n ive a adjustable amp n volt electrolysis kit..

I did have kindof a plan but because i have an erratic deposit with a mechanically unsortable material mix im unsure how to run the full route.
Sulfide>oxide>smelt>AR>displacement?
Sulfide>oxide>hg extract/chlorine route..


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## cosmetal

*"I really could do with some direction in whats the best thing to do with these. In processing them. And the black sand concentrate."*

I'm still a noobie on the chemical refine end. But, if I had a black sand deposit like that in front of me, I would be running what I could through the gold cube to densify. Screen the concentrates (even down to <100), separate the concentrates from any magnetics, and then pan the concentrates or run them on a Miller table. 

The gold pan is a very cheap and wonderful analytical tool. Work on your panning skills - it's worth the time. I have seen desert hard rock miners use a gold pan with a small tub of water and analyze crushed ore samples to see if the samples are worth further analysis with a assay test.

Speaking of crushing - I would be running the larger pieces through a hammer or ball mill and repeat the panning or assay tests on them. You could also use a dolly pot on site to crush the ore down to more manageable sizes.

Of course, all of this is dependant on the size of your deposit and the amount of time you want to invest. From the looks of your panned sample, I would be chasing the free gold first. 

James


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## im1badpup1

Thanks james yes the freegold n cubes going first.
Ive a second heavy metal in with the concentrates 


The dull gray material. Looks like lead but could be zinc i guess too. Looking closely theres a third soft gray metal in there too.
The golds been removed with mercury im going to retort this too theres some mercury contamination still.
Some of the heavy material near the end of the pan with the concentrates in this pic


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## cosmetal

im1badpup1 said:


> Thanks james yes the freegold n cubes going first.
> Ive a second heavy metal in with the concentrates 20171030_111134.jpg
> 
> The dull gray material. Looks like lead but could be zinc i guess too. Looking closely theres a third soft gray metal in there too.
> The golds been removed with mercury im going to retort this too theres some mercury contamination still.
> Some of the heavy material near the end of the pan with the concentrates in this pic20171030_111258.jpg



That's the strangest looking concentrate I've ever seen. But, my black sand cons experience is only from my years of gold dredging within the rivers of California's mother lode regions.

Why the use of mercury in your gold panning efforts? The pic you posted of the free gold found in your first panning efforts certainly were large enough for easy retrieval. Please tell me you have past experience with mercury and retort use and that you are aware of its toxicity issues.

When you say you are going to retort this too, are you saying that you plan on putting all of your cons in your retort or just the pregnant mercury you panned out? I certainly would not recommend retorting any other material until you know for sure what you are dealing with.

If there are small amounts of mercury left in your pan, just keep panning to consolidate any spattered mercury and then use a gold pan snuffer bottle to suck up the loose mercury. 

James


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## im1badpup1

Yes ive used mercury before i used to make salts from it for chemical catalysed synthesis . Go from the elemental form to oxide or nitrate and or chlorinate. Recover the spent impure hg post reaction then redistill and reuse.
Ive all the glassware and equipment still. Its no problem for me to rig up gas generators either. Anhydrous hcl gas for example.
There was spots of elemental mercury in one area samples i took it made no difference to me at that point i was going to treat it all as contaminated so adding some i had made no real difference to me. Its sucked up all the pinhead size gold.
I was planning to heat the gray metal seperately to drive off any mercury contamination and collect any what does as thats what i first saw it on. 
Sorry i forgot to post pic of the fine black sand concentrate i seperated il do it later. Ive panned through it three times to make sure i missed nothing.

Just to clarify
il retort the mercury 
Then retort the gray metal to remove any residual hg coating
Mercurys going back in container afterwards.
would it be premature to dissolve the metals then recovered in aqua regis and use a displacemant to seperate each one according to reactivity?


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## cuchugold

cosmetal said:


> "Ive ordered a goldcube to seperate the free gold for now."
> 
> Good choice. IMO, a three stack model is sufficient.
> 
> Are you going to use it on site of the deposit? What will be your water source? Even if you set-up as a self-contained operation, you have to get a fair amount of water in there in the first place to set it up.
> 
> Have you screened any of the black sand to determine the most common grain size? The pics of your samples used to create your streaks appear to be rather large.
> 
> James


What is a goldcube, please?. Thanks.


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## g_axelsson

https://www.google.com/search?q=goldcube&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=W4T4WZP8Bubk8Afx7YnAAQ


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## im1badpup1

Pics of blacksand 
Closeups
Shook the bloody thing flat n think any bits of lighter material has obscured the detail of the black concentrate. Il take some more if need be




Ive never took or viewed closeup detail of sand before its beautiful lol.

Cuchugold-
A goldcube is an underflow sluice designed to take 1/8th or smaller material and concentrate it catching heavier particles in the pressure drop in waterflow the underflow current causes. And the vortex matting aka rough conveyer belt holds the material.
Its basically preset with correct flowrate and setup to go once prepped theres less mistakes you can make operating as a novice and from ppls testimonials its very good at its job.


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## cuchugold

Thanks Goran. I got that too. What is the maximum capacity of this device?.
Also thanks im1badpup1.


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## cosmetal

cuchugold said:


> Thanks Goran. I got that too. What is the maximum capacity of this device?.
> Also thanks im1badpup1.


https://goldcube.net/

One of their drop down promos states "Tons to ounces in minutes." 

Dubious claim at best (unless their counting the weight of the processing water :shock: ), but, it does move pre-sorted material fast. However, you are left with a cons that still has to be processed further by pan, table or blue bowl device.

James


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## im1badpup1

Picked up my neodynium n52 magnet today and separated out the magnetics.
None of the large sulfide or ore looking rocks was magnetic.
Hardly any of the small upto 10mm sulfides are magnetic. Heres a pic of the non magnetic heavys the very largest is about 10mm ive seperated from the black sand concentrate.

Very little of the black sand i concentrated down by repeated panning was magnetic either. Less than 10% for definate. 
Pic of the demagnetised black sand concentrate i recovered my gold from
Apoligies about pics been in wrong place i dont know why its happening its driving me nuts

Ive a couple kilos black sand and a couple kilos of the upto 10mm stones seperated. Id like to test them for unknown or hidden pms.
The black sand looks like it could do with been much more concentrated ill try to size it and classify down my cube should be here in the next day so ill run it through that and try adjusting flow to drop the heavys.

Do you think the stones upto 10mm in size are of a sufficient concentration to proceed with next step? I was thinking of grinding them down and roasting them to convert to oxides next.


Ive researched the geology of the area best i can and best guess is sulfides are mixed pyrite galena hametite theres a silver content in one and also zinc.
If i made the oxide. Demagnetised the residue. If i then added glacial acetic acid and extracted lead acetate iron acetate. Then extract with hydrochloric acid to remove soluble zinc hcl ? 
Im trying to think how best to remove what i can and test to determine silver and what % if i can. And for now just a spot test to see if theres a gold content in the sulfides. Its only for a sample test.


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## cosmetal

*"Do you think the stones upto 10mm in size are of a sufficient concentration to proceed with next step? I was thinking of grinding them down and roasting them to convert to oxides next."*

It is my understanding (from this board) that the roasting is a no-no without first knowing what exactly you are roasting. Need a fire assay first to detect nasties like arsenic, etc.


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## im1badpup1

Ah ok cosmetal. I should read the guidelines. For a fire assay i could oxidise and reduce in one step. I guess its prudent in most circumstances to send it off and get a professional analysis. Yes theres arsenopyrite its a mix.

A clue of the gold source. What is this in the pic.. i see them ranging in size from microscopic to several mm. Is it a precipitation of elemental metal gold alloy with silver thats been caught in a crystal lattice or rather the edges of the crystal development. Ive seen hundreds if not thousands over the years but never one in situ embedded in anything. Sometimes there is a complete circle or ring of gold. Always there is a heavier thicker deposit on one side. I find them most often like in the pic with an incomplete ring. Theyre usually twisted up from movement.


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## cosmetal

Forgot to ask before . . . why the pic of the coins, etc.? :?: 

Were they found at your deposit? :?: 

James


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## cosmetal

If I was you, this is what I would do:

1.) Buy a good 14" plastic gold pan online like attached pic - $15 USD.
2.) Buy a set of plastic classifying screens that will fit on the 14" gold pan and a 5 gal. plastic bucket - $53 USD. for 5 screen set. $89 USD for a 9 screen set.
3.) A large plastic tub that you can fill with water and pan into.
4.) A 60x jewelers loupe.

Grind your cons without roasting - screen the grind - pan each screen size - inspect each screen size. You'll be surprised what you learn about your material.

As an example, I am currently working on analysing the results from my first incineration of 600 gms. of IC chips from RAM memory. I am going to post my results (and screw ups) soon. I am still trying to figure out why, when I test panned my < 100 screen of residue left over from two AR boils/decants, that I found these two pieces gold that had survived the AR dissolves. :!: :shock: :!:

The pics next to the plastic coated paper clip shows the two pieces and the value of learning good panning techniques. The gold pan is truly an elegant solution!  

Practice . . . practice . . . practice . . . and then practice some more. 

Go after your free gold first. Let us know how the Gold Cube worked on your black sands.

James


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## im1badpup1

cosmetal said:


> Forgot to ask before . . . why the pic of the coins, etc.? :?:
> 
> Were they found at your deposit? :?:
> 
> James



No not the deposit im about to work on but id wrote a lengthy piece about something i do know quite a bit about to do with black sands on beaches and occurance of gold within them unfortunately it cant of saved correctly.

On a beach finding scrap in black sand is a good indicator theres gold there too. Old coins nails screws bullets etc. Brass lead n copper.
The coins sit on and in the sand the gold underneath on bedrock. By gold i mean what ive found is coins, rings, brooches, pen nibs of pm gold alloys, old pocketwatch gold cogs, chains, wire, all of the same in silver too.

My local beach isnt anywhere near a gold geological area so no nuggets unfortunately lol. But if you are in a natural gold area then if u start spotting what ive mentioned id dig down and look. Its worth looking even if you arnt see if you get lucky and find a lost gold item.

Black sand on beach is a concentrated deposit much like a river or alluvial concentrate deposit but you dont want to be looking in the highly magnetised stuff look in the other type if you get what i mean. Its fine textured and really dense. Non magnetic.

Ive been pulling old coins from a natural rock outcrop on a riverbed for the last 20 years too. Its got a groove acting like a natural riffle. Everytime theres a floodwater more stuff redeposits. Makes me wonder why you guys on rivers carrying gold dont put a riffle on the bed a big deep one. Dont matter if it sediments over once floodwater hits it itll scour out clean. Then itll do a good job as the river calms back down trapping the goods and keeping it till you come clean it out.


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## im1badpup1

Cosmetal the gold in your photo may have come from your sieves. Or elsewhere.
Try a few drops of AR on them in a testtube 
Then squash em n try again see if theyre coated.
If it still fails its not gold id say.
Theres a platinum group pm impervious to AR i dont recall which one offhand.

Funny enough my pan arrived today its obscured in the pic behind that huge nugget lol.
My goldcube was due too. Perhaps monday.. cant wait tbh.
Ive crushed the sulfides panned out the slurry and recrushing the bigger bits until its all slurry. 

Your chips experiment sounds interesting. I know more chemistry than geology... dont throw anything away until your finished. Take your time preperation is key.


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## cuchugold

cosmetal said:


> The gold pan is truly an elegant solution!
> Go after your free gold first. Let us know how the Gold Cube worked on your black sands.
> 
> James


The sieve and pan and large bucket are truly an elegant solution. If you add a hip tall stool or table, so that you don't have to bend over to sieve/pan all day, then you know how to dress!. 

It's so much easier to pan each sieved size material, than panning it all without sieving, that is worth repeating many times!. :G

5 sieve sizes are more than enough, 3 usually do the job for me. I've seen old diamond miners with 9 screens though. 30 years ago, they used to throw away the fine gold that passed through the last screen. Not anymore!.

Fwiw: If you really want to learn to pan for gold, work with a diamond artisan miner for a day. They go through tons of material fast, and do not miss any gold ever, unless they throw it away!. Diamonds are 3.5 in density vs quartz 2.65 ... that's why.


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## cosmetal

*"Cosmetal the gold in your photo may have come from your sieves. Or elsewhere.
Try a few drops of AR on them in a testtube 
Then squash em n try again see if theyre coated.
If it still fails its not gold id say.
Theres a platinum group pm impervious to AR i dont recall which one offhand."*

I'll try your AR suggestion. But, I know for a fact they're not from my sieves. I washed the residue from my second AR boil/decant directly from the beaker to my gold pan. Panned in my large plastic tub wearing nitrile gloves.

For some unexplained reason, my gold "spidey sense" told me to try it.  They were calling to me . . . wierd! :shock: 

James


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## cosmetal

cuchugold said:


> cosmetal said:
> 
> 
> 
> The gold pan is truly an elegant solution!
> Go after your free gold first. Let us know how the Gold Cube worked on your black sands.
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> The sieve and pan and large bucket are truly an elegant solution. If you add a hip tall stool or table, so that you don't have to bend over to sieve/pan all day, then you know how to dress!.
> 
> It's so much easier to pan each sieved size material, than panning it all without sieving, that is worth repeating many times!. :G
> 
> 5 sieve sizes are more than enough, 3 usually do the job for me. I've seen old diamond miners with 9 screens though. 30 years ago, they used to throw away the fine gold that passed through the last screen. Not anymore!.
> 
> Fwiw: If you really want to learn to pan for gold, work with a diamond artisan miner for a day. They go through tons of material fast, and do not miss any gold ever, unless they throw it away!. Diamonds are 3.5 in density vs quartz 2.65 ... that's why.
Click to expand...


I guess I'm already "dressed to the nines" as I've got the 9 screen set and use/pan each screen. Adjustable waist high stool too!  

You are so right about it being easier to pan sieved size material. You need uniform particle size so as to not force your fine gold out of the pan by the larger waste particles.

I would love to hone my panning skills with a diamond miner. I guess my 2018 vacation should be to the Crater of Diamonds in Arkansas http://www.craterofdiamondsstatepark.com/ 8) 

James


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## warmgold

im1badpup1 said:


> Hi everybody im new to the forum and prospecting. A quick history of myself is ive a long term interest in geology mineralogy and a practising amateur chemist over the last 20years. It doesnt mean im smart or educated though.
> 
> Anyway i was recently hunting minerals corundum and garnet and came across an alluvial blacksand deposit. Ive never panned before but took a sample home and panned with a enamel pie tin and lo behold found small and microgold20171015_131321.jpg
> 
> An idea of scale i put a flake on my fing8ernail here20171015_131321.jpg20171020_093129.jpg
> 
> Theres small lead particles also present at the bottom of the pan with the gold.
> 
> Ive tested to be sure and it is indeed gold
> 
> Ive ordered a goldcube to seperate the free gold for now.
> 
> Ive been studying the other material in and around the alluvial black sand deposit and theres more of interest..
> 
> Theres a lot of sulfides. Pyrites etc. Both hydrothermal vent deposits and free ore released from vein deposits by weathering. I really could do with some direction in whats the best thing to do with these. In processing them. And the black sand concentrate. Il elaborate on this with some pictures of minerals and streaks in next post



Hello  
You wrote : "Both hydrothermal vent deposits and free ore released from vein deposits by weathering" 
How can you say there is hydrotermalism in your zone?

The native gold source can be very far from where is found as alluvial gold


The stones don't look like they are bearing gold
The density of the stone is not a native gold indicator (can be an indicator of iron ) 
The smell of sulphur when you hit the rock is probably pyrite (FeS2)
The streaks on the rock are veins, the brown/red probably is pyrite (oxided) or other minerals like mica, and the yellow could be dirty quartz or calcite or other minerals, can't say from the photos. 
The gold can be yellow orange dark light, but got the same "appearance " of the alluvial gold. 
Can be reddish, but will never have an "iron stain"
The silver shiny probably is a mica, need more photos to say, but there is no gold in the stones of the photo. 

Could you do some nice pics to the flakes to see the shape? 

How can you say the alluvial gold you found have something to do with the quartz vein assay?

The pebble on the pan is OK, but try test different places on the stream to see the gold ratio difference
And practice to gain experience in prospecting is always the best tip


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## im1badpup1

I can say because ive researched the geology of the area from its original volcanic formation and vents mapped out. The secondary igneous intrusion zones later on and vents with faulting zones are mapped too. Some are hydrothermal although on land now. Theres a raised beach or theres hydrothermal exposure on there pegmatite dykes and weathering. The quartz vein deposits are in places exposed. Theres garnet, pyrope in some pegmatite deposits. Theres sappire around some other volcanic activity. Its stipulated conclusively in the scientific papers that the sulfides and some tellurides in areas what have formed in so called hot zones all have a ppm count for gold some other pgms in one intrusion belt. The sedimentary sulfides contain no pms. Theres partially metamorphosed red sandstone containing a gold value.
Theres been godnose how many iceages but ive read the mapping data of glacier flow direction for the last 6-8 glaciers their terminal point etc.
So most of what i say as fact isnt my words its a conclusion from literature ive read. Id still be scratching my head lol.
The alluvial gold no mother lode source has ever been verified. Theres at least two sources unknown for the alluvial gold.
The mining been done historically in the area excepting the alluvial recovery has been for the telluride and sulfides and gold recovered from that. Theres been no motherlide veins of native gold discovered historically afaik its all from sulfides and tellurides.
If it was made to sound like i was stating that the sulfides i have are from a specific quartz vein only with 1800ppm au reading i never meant that. That same vein has wildly varying values as it runs exposed across the country down to just several ppm. The sulfide content dips inline with the au ppm drop.
I still dont know if the ppm values are for a batch of "quartz vein ore containing sulfides the sulfide content 5-8% with a value of 1800ppm" i think ive looked at such a wide range of historical testing data, methods used i cant make a true conclusion from it and the only way to know what the erratic sulfide deposits contain is to test them myself. As you say warmgold theyll vary in composition from place to place ive noticed already several things about the concentrated deposits in different areas. Different materials dominate. Arsenopyrite in one spot. Garlicy smell.
I dont know what the acetic acid smelling one is yet though.
Theres a lot of lead and silver mixed ore deposits too.
That lead in my picture should have an unusually high ag content if history is correct itll be interesting to find out. Not profitable but im primarily an amateur chemist so its interesting to me still.
Think of scotlands geology. Thats the source of most of the material im dealing with.
Id like to isolate and collect some rare platinum group metals for my element collection at some point too.
Anyway my cubes arrived! Off to pick it up and prep it for tomorrow 
Edit the cube arriving. Its at a delivery hub in transit. Damn.


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## warmgold

im1badpup1 said:


> I can say because ive researched the geology of the area from its original volcanic formation and vents mapped out. The secondary igneous intrusion zones later on and vents with faulting zones are mapped too. Some are hydrothermal although on land now. Theres a raised beach or theres hydrothermal exposure on there pegmatite dykes and weathering. The quartz vein deposits are in places exposed. Theres garnet, pyrope in some pegmatite deposits. Theres sappire around some other volcanic activity. Its stipulated conclusively in the scientific papers that the sulfides and some tellurides in areas what have formed in so called hot zones all have a ppm count for gold some other pgms in one intrusion belt. The sedimentary sulfides contain no pms. Theres partially metamorphosed red sandstone containing a gold value.
> Theres been godnose how many iceages but ive read the mapping data of glacier flow direction for the last 6-8 glaciers their terminal point etc.
> So most of what i say as fact isnt my words its a conclusion from literature ive read. Id still be scratching my head lol.
> The alluvial gold no mother lode source has ever been verified. Theres at least two sources unknown for the alluvial gold.
> The mining been done historically in the area excepting the alluvial recovery has been for the telluride and sulfides and gold recovered from that. Theres been no motherlide veins of native gold discovered historically afaik its all from sulfides and tellurides.
> If it was made to sound like i was stating that the sulfides i have are from a specific quartz vein only with 1800ppm au reading i never meant that. That same vein has wildly varying values as it runs exposed across the country down to just several ppm. The sulfide content dips inline with the au ppm drop.
> I still dont know if the ppm values are for a batch of "quartz vein ore containing sulfides the sulfide content 5-8% with a value of 1800ppm" i think ive looked at such a wide range of historical testing data, methods used i cant make a true conclusion from it and the only way to know what the erratic sulfide deposits contain is to test them myself. As you say warmgold theyll vary in composition from place to place ive noticed already several things about the concentrated deposits in different areas. Different materials dominate. Arsenopyrite in one spot. Garlicy smell.
> I dont know what the acetic acid smelling one is yet though.
> Theres a lot of lead and silver mixed ore deposits too.
> That lead in my picture should have an unusually high ag content if history is correct itll be interesting to find out. Not profitable but im primarily an amateur chemist so its interesting to me still.
> Think of scotlands geology. Thats the source of most of the material im dealing with.
> Id like to isolate and collect some rare platinum group metals for my element collection at some point too.
> Anyway my cubes arrived! Off to pick it up and prep it for tomorrow
> Edit the cube arriving. Its at a delivery hub in transit. Damn.



Hello 
What do you mean with been mapped? 
You intend a geological map of the area? In which scale?

Hydroterm


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## warmgold

ste="im1badpup1"]I can say because ive researched the geology of the area from its original volcanic formation and vents mapped out. The secondary igneous intrusion zones later on and vents with faulting zones are mapped too. Some are hydrothermal although on land now. Theres a raised beach or theres hydrothermal exposure on there pegmatite dykes and weathering. The quartz vein deposits are in places exposed. Theres garnet, pyrope in some pegmatite deposits. Theres sappire around some other volcanic activity. Its stipulated conclusiv7ely in the scientific papers that the sulfides and some tellurides in areas what have formed in so called hot zones all have a ppm count for gold some other pgms in one intrusion belt. The sedimentary sulfides contain no pms. Theres partially metamorphosed red sandstone containing a gold value.
Theres been godnose how many iceages but ive read the mapping data of glacier flow direction for the last 6-8 glaciers their terminal point etc.
So most of what i say as fact isnt my words its a conclusion from literature ive read. Id still be scratching my head lol.
The alluvial gold no mother lode source has ever been verified. Theres at least two sources unknown for the alluvial gold.
The mining been done historically in the area excepting the alluvial recovery has been for the telluride and sulfides and gold recovered from that. Theres been no motherlide veins of native gold discovered historically afaik its all from sulfides and tellurides.
If it was made to sound like i was stating that the sulfides i have are from a specific quartz vein only with 1800ppm au reading i never meant that. That same vein has wildly varying values as it runs exposed across the country down to just several ppm. The sulfide content dips inline with the au ppm drop.
I still dont know if the ppm values are for a batch of "quartz vein ore containing sulfides the sulfide content 5-8% with a value of 1800ppm" i think ive looked at such a wide range of historical testing data, methods used i cant make a true conclusion from it and the only way to know what the erratic sulfide deposits contain is to test them myself. As you say warmgold theyll vary in composition from place to place ive noticed already several things about the concentrated deposits in different areas. Different materials dominate. Arsenopyrite in one spot. Garlicy smell.
I dont know what the acetic acid smelling one is yet though.
Theres a lot of lead and silver mixed ore deposits too.
That lead in my picture should have an unusually high ag content if history is correct itll be interesting to find out. Not profitable but im primarily an amateur chemist so its interesting to me still.
Think of scotlands geology. Thats the source of most of the material im dealing with.
Id like to isolate and collect some rare platinum group metals for my element collection at some point too.
Anyway my cubes arrived! Off to pick it up and prep it for tomorrow 
Edit the cube arriving. Its at a delivery hub in transit. Damn.[/quote]

Hello 
What do you mean with been mapped? 
You intend a geological map of the area? In which scale?

Hydrothermalism don't mean always gold (not in quantity to call it a deposit, in 0.0X ppm the gold is everywhere on earth/sea)
But the document you found have to be considered. 
In the first or second post you wrote the vein contain 50 ppm of gold (or 50 grams ton, if I don't mistake with numbers) is a rich deposit (and in reality, probably is more richer in a good spot)
is this correct? 

You said"I come to this conclusion by my own etc": geology is most based on conclusions, very few of it is been demonstrated scientifically (it's hard to repeat on lab for example the mountain creation process :mrgreen: ) so it's good considering "every" conclusion 

Read the glacier texts again, its important , they could have taken some of the alluvial gold (coming from "who knows) in the territory. You can try with sluice box in the area where glacier have placed the sediments carried during his passage ( a big alluvial gold spot, obviously the glacier must have carried gold veins in his passage..)
U can check for the big areas in a geological map (marked as glacier alluvial deposits)

I think you will find, checking the internet, if the glaciers on your zone carried gold...they are big geological movements that interact with huge part of land/world
And in millions of years they concentrated the gold (and heavy minerals/metals)in alluvial deposits, in everypart of the territory they passed on (obviously the ratio of suspected gold varies, and can be null in some deposits, a lot should be considered), so I think it is noticed on the web

Why are you saying there are two unknown source for alluvial gold?
And how you have detected silver and lead? 

The acetic smell I don't know, could be something organic... here in the forum there are users better in chemistry than me(A LOT better, scaring sometimes :shock: )

Morris


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## im1badpup1

I got these little pieces of metal when i panned the pyrite id hammered to pieces


Warmgold theres historical text lead was picked up from fields round here in small pieces what had an unusually high silver content. I think that stuff im finding when panning or metal detecting is the same stuff. Ill find out soon because ive enough to test now.

I know what you mean about the glaciation. Its took me about 6months even more of a good few hours reading each day to go through all the available literature online and im still coming across new stuff.
Im playing catchup with the literature but my knowledge from actually walking the areas of the geology is very good. I spot deposits bearing concentrated heavy materials easily. And remember where they are too.
Heres an example from a river deposit loaded with roman coins.View attachment 1


The coins keep getting trapped in the heavy sediment. Its about 6inch deep a couple metre wide and 50ft long. Ive had brooches lead gold wire and more coins from there than shown in the picture.


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## warmgold

Nice coins!!!!
For properly recovery you must mill more finely the ore you already processed to avoid losses. I mill the ore using an old corn mill, work very good but if I go to concentrate the milled ore by panning I lose most of the gold (gold in layer/film on small quartz/matrix grains)

About the picture, it looks gold from the color but you have to verify with an acid test
It's not pyrite but could be other mineral like mica, you can watch with the microscope if you have one


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## im1badpup1

A cornmill i just might be able to get hold of! My familys all farmers and farm engineers lol. I remember seeing one an old antiquated cast iron thing with a handle to turn. Millers flour? I think thats what size it ground too.

Is the sieve set cosmetal posted complete for very fine materials? Ive not bought a sieve set yet having been unsure the sizes il need. Ive just basic 1/4 1/8 and 1mm.

Im going to weigh a kilo of both the pyrite ive crushed and the blacksand ive saved at the bottom of the pan and try process further.
So for now ive crushed as fine as possible by grinding using a big sledgehammer on concrete.
Ive used a n52 neodynium magnet to remove any magnetics. I noticed some material was only slightly magnetic.
Im going to roast both seperately for several hours a dull red heat and increase heat the last hour.
(Well ventilated on farm) its a one off test not something il be repeating or scaling up.
Go over again with magnet.
Il have a read up and probably use an acid eg hcl aqueous to try remove base metals. Hopefully i can use more selective acids only certain elements dissolve into.
Ive a friend whose a jeweller i need to see about the machine they use to identify precious metal alloys and their % if its possible il try reduce use hankchapman flux with a collector metal and smelt a button for analysis.
Im open to suggestions for alternative proceasing methods
I doubt very much there will be anything profitable but i enjoy the practical the chemistry is different to what ive practised before.
I know it seems im wasting my time and i should be chasing the freegold but im looking after a dying relative. I cant get out much so its a welcome distraction testing n processing the materials at home.

The mica warmgold, is it the stuff what crushes n crumbles into very fine see through flakes? It looks like a shiny silver ore deposit in host rock?
I took a pretty looking erratic home recently i think i ided it as alkali feldspar granite with what i later noticed appeared to be mica. Ive a pic here


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## cosmetal

*"Is the sieve set cosmetal posted complete for very fine materials? Ive not bought a sieve set yet having been unsure the sizes il need. Ive just basic 1/4 1/8 and 1mm"*.

5 Screen Set SE GP2-5 SET 5-Piece Set of Patented 13-1/4" Stackable Sifting Pans:
•	Top diameter of each pan: 13-1/4”
•	Mesh screen sizes: 1/2", 1/4", 1/8", 1/12", 1/20"
•	Wire thickness: 1.4mm, 0.95mm, 0.6mm, 0.45mm, 0.35mm
•	Stackable design that sits nicely in a 5-gallon bucket
You can buy any screen size individually.

9 Screen Set SE GP2-9 SET 9-Piece Set of Patented Stackable 13-1/4” Sifting Pans:
•	Top diameter of each pan: 13-1/4”
•	Mesh sizes: 1/100”, 1/70”, 1/50”, 1/30”, 1/20”, 1/12”, 1/8”, 1/4", 1/2“
•	Wire Thickness (mm): 0.10, 0.14, 0.17, 0.30, 0.35, 0.45, 0.60, 0.95, 1.40
•	Stackable design sits nicely on a 5-gallon bucket
You can buy any screen size individually.

All will nest into each other and the 14” Gold Pan SE GP1014G14:
•	Diameter: 14 inches
•	Material: plastic
•	Color: green
•	1/8-inch deep round base to better trap gold
•	Two different types of riffles: shallow & deep
You can use the pan to catch all of the <100 mesh material.

I bought mine from Amazon.

Good luck!  

James


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## im1badpup1

Thanks cosmetal ill get them ordered. My goldcubes arrived! Just fitted a heavy duty 1/8 s/s sieve screen on top panel. Im hoping i can just dump the material on and brush it through n swipe the larger bits off. N just pop it off and knock the bits what get stuck off now and again


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## warmgold

Yes the shining stuff on photo is mica. 
Now that you find a sample you can place it aside a gold specimen, you ll notice mica reflect light as a mirror if u turn the specimen on light, you ll see a terminated smooth face reflecting light, gold it ll never reflecting light as a mirror (as silver and copper) because crystals shape is different (check the net for photos)

Noone think you are wasting time, the discovery is done only trying. The wasting of time is a part needed in every experience 

Anyway, unless you find the area with the gold veins you can see by eye, almost always the alluvial gold is much more effordable and already extracted and concentrated
You don't need crushing, roasting, acids, getting rid of nothing... Just collect it all
And according to your past photos, presuming its gold, looks like quite pure , so refining will be quite easy (and very worthing)

Morris 

What do u use as flux in the smelting?


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## im1badpup1

Ive not smelted anything yet. Il research some more and come up with whatever suits the materials im smelting and the method i use. Theres a bit of variation. I noticed one method on youtube the guy directly smelts a sulfide mix while others oxidise by roasting first.
I had a go with my goldcube last night. Only did four 5gallon buckets as a test and not in an area id thought would be loaded. But..
Ive a dozen or so nice little gold pieces wedged in the vortex matting il have to tweezer out and hundreds upon hundreds of small gold in the concentrates

I had no idea there was anything much really in the cube. The gold in the pic runs right through them concentrates. 
I cleaned the cube after each bucket. I ended up with 3/4 a pan of concentrate what i panned down to that im just to tired to finish it off tonight. 
I did notice larger gold flakes trapped after the bucket id gathered from under riverrocks though.


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## cosmetal

im1badpup1 said:


> Ive not smelted anything yet. Il research some more and come up with whatever suits the materials im smelting and the method i use. Theres a bit of variation. I noticed one method on youtube the guy directly smelts a sulfide mix while others oxidise by roasting first.
> I had a go with my goldcube last night. Only did four 5gallon buckets as a test and not in an area id thought would be loaded. But..
> Ive a dozen or so nice little gold pieces wedged in the vortex matting il have to tweezer out and hundreds upon hundreds of small gold in the concentrates20171110_114538.jpg
> I had no idea there was anything much really in the cube. The gold in the pic runs right through them concentrates.
> I cleaned the cube after each bucket. I ended up with 3/4 a pan of concentrate what i panned down to that im just to tired to finish it off tonight.
> I did notice larger gold flakes trapped after the bucket id gathered from under riverrocks though.



Dang, man! :shock: 

Forget the hard stuff like smelting. Run your Cube until you wear out it's riffles!  

You also have some (what appear to be) beautiful copper mineral specimens like azurite and malachite. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some turquoise hiding around some where. Wikipedia says that there is turquoise in the Cornwall area of England 

*"Other notable localities include: Afghanistan; Australia (Victoria and Queensland); north India; northern Chile (Chuquicamata); Cornwall; Saxony; Silesia; and Turkestan".*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turquoise

Don't sleep - dig! :shock: 

James


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## cosmetal

*"Ive a dozen or so nice little gold pieces wedged in the vortex matting il have to tweezer out"*

More pics, please!  

James


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## cosmetal

Now I have a dilemma! :shock: 

Who should I come visit? You in England or Cuchugold in Venezuela?  

James


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## cosmetal

*"I did notice larger gold flakes trapped after the bucket id gathered from under riverrocks though"*

Is this coming out of a flowing water source such as a stream or river? If you are finding this under "river rock", you definitely need to hit bedrock. 

James


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## warmgold

:shock: 

Seriously??? :mrgreen: 

Agree with cosmetal... 
There is really a lot of it friend, don't stop
Waiting for more pics.. 

Incredible!!!!    :G


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## im1badpup1

Lol thanks. I couldnt clean the concentrate much more the lead really makes it hard. Its all sizes and weights without a sieve set i just cant seperate it yet. 
I did find my first two very small nuggets though! The appearance of globular pyrite but yellowy. Well i tapped the pieces with a pin hammer n they squashed easily. Very soft. But they are dirty on the outside. Another small piece is kindof the right colour but its to hard and was brittle more coppery maybe.


Theyre much brighter yellow but for some reason the pics colour is a bit out.
The one on the right i dont thinks gold it was to hard n brittle.


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## cosmetal

There's an old saying from California's Gold Rush era:

*"If you thinks it's gold, it ain't!"*

You'll get used to spotting gold real quick with the goodies you're finding.  

What about the stream or river? Is it there that you're getting the gold? If yes. have you thought about how you could get to bedrock? 

Believe me, I know from experience dredging the gold bearing rivers in Northern California. If you are getting this amount of good sized gold from "scratching" the surface . . . you really . . . really . . . really need to hit bedrock, my friend! :!: :G :!: :G :!:

Have fun!
James


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## im1badpup1

I just tried a cupellation of the lead. I used cement with boneash as cupel. I heated and let oxidise rolling it around later on to remove oxide layers. Left it 30minutes with heat although noticeable oxidation had finished and the bead left was this. It wouldnt oxidise further. I squashed it with a hammer.


Im not far at all from some of the richest silver containing galena deposits in the country if the pbs values are anything like half those its well worth processing!

Yes i swept the bedrock literally with a dustpan and brush lol.

Im hopefully out again tomorrow il try get some on site deposit pics etc

To best describe the geology, im on an alluvial glacial fan a huge deposition the size of a county. On this later glacial intrusions have terminated and theres a series of moraines with glacial floodwater rivers. On one side of this deposit is a estuary-river. Its been raining heavily here so river will be too high to go to but On the other is the sea. At both my locations the ancient moraine and glacialriver is cut into at 90degrees by the cliffs of either the river or sea.


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## anachronism

Sounds like where I live in North Yorkshire - we've got that geography and I live bang between two large terminal moraines....

Jon


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## warmgold

Try to discover old Dead rivers around...so u Can work better and faster. 
You Need water near to Wash the sand and something for carring the Sand to the water

I use the wheelbarrow for this type of work, and i hide It near the River when leaving so i don t have to take It home everytime

Nice pics :mrgreen:


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## FrugalRefiner

warmgold said:


> so u Can work better and faster.


Please don't use text lingo here. We have members around the world who don't speak English and have to use translators. Text lingo like "u" does not translate well, so we have a rule against using it.

Dave


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## cosmetal

From your previous posts, it sounds like you have explored your area quite well from the standpoint of past geological records.

Have you ever thought of using Google Earth to further prospect your area in almost "real time" compared to old records?

I use it in my prospecting and I am always surprised at what I can find, especially with placer deposits and their area geology.

James


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## im1badpup1

anachronism said:


> Sounds like where I live in North Yorkshire - we've got that geography and I live bang between two large terminal moraines....
> 
> Jon



Are you finding native lead? Its worth checking silver content if youre getting a fair bit. I read an old document somewhere silver content may be from 5-12% by weight! Your sat almost on one of the highest silver and barium concentrations in the country according to some historical text ppl used to pick the lead up out the fields and extract the silver which was minted into hammered silver pennies locally.

Im trying to find a sulfide/pyrite/telluride identification method so i know what types worth taking theres tons of it where i am. Actual tons. Colour ranges from red grey brown black green. The galena is most identifiable been so dense. If anyone knows field test or an id document id appreciate it.

Yes ive used google earth. Ancient water level maps. Glaciation maps. Geology maps ive been exhaustive as in used everything i could find over a 6-7month period. Its give some great potential areas to go look.

From last nights episode i learned a lot albeit if i only got 1/4 or half a gram of flakes. The seas washed the beach clear theres no good concentrations to try ive got a video il try upload to utube and post link here.

The wheelbarrows a good idea. A 5gallon bucket of concentrates what are good is unliftable lol. Im going to try get a 12v electric barrow. The 12v battery ive bought is a deepcycle 100amp hours to run the pump. In 12hours it used about 15%. Its heavy and to justify carrying it it needs to be put to more use. Itl increase my production and make work a bit less backbreaking.

Top of the beach in the blacksand ive found flakes. I tested a midpart last night. It wasnt the material i hoped for but most of the beach was scoured to bare bed. I found flakes of gold here too but no really fine small micro gold. I panned at low water point and got only 2 flakes but both bigger than any from anywhere else.

I spent a good 2-3 hours in a heap of erratic boulders the amount of sulfide is unreal. Its the majority of the heap. I was hoping for a nugget lol and found a load of what appears to be small blobs of melted gunmetal or brass. It doesnt half sparkle bright yellow in the headlamp when wet like gold. It soon dulls in colour when dry.

Il edit and add some pics soon

Not all that glitters is gold i found some melted brass see pic. But one piece cuts with a knife and has a silver cut. Im not sure but il get it tested. Its the piece sat on lard so i could get a pic of the knife cut.


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## im1badpup1

I got an xrf done on the soft yellow metal what cut with a knife it came back 76%copper 21%zinc 1.6%tin .3%nickel or values very close. Ive misplaced the readout.
I thought id added this in a message but it cant of saved.
Ive managed to do 8 5gallon buckets of black sand tonight only 3-4 inches deep from the bed and scraped it clean.
All from top of the beach from a patch of blacksand almost eroded completely.
I havnt had time to pan the concentrate yet but could see a few small 1-2mm flaky pieces in there. My one concern is i dont think my pump was running as fast as it should there seemed to be a lot of heavy sediment in the cube still. Il post pics of the concentrate and results tomorrow.

Much better this time. From my first pan of concentrates ive got this 
and ive another 3-4 pans to do


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## cosmetal

Trying to visualize the geology of your area is giving me a headache. :!: :shock: :?: :shock: :!: 

To me, it appears that the source of your free gold is from the glacier's "scrubbing" action on everything it passes over. Again, I am neither a experienced geologist or chemist. I am, however, experienced in placer gold dredging. 

When we were dredging, 3/4 of our time was spent excavating our hole of the rocks that wouldn't pass through our dredge nozzle. And there were many! :x 

The deeper we went into the overburden, the wider we would have to make our hole to keep its walls from collapsing on, and into, what we had just dredged out. Believe me, its a lot of work "betting on the come" that there was good gold on the bedrock! Sometimes there wasn't. But, we didn't continue to bedrock unless we were finding gold on our way down to it. With the help of a wench and rock slings, we were usually moving anywhere from 1m to 3 m of the overburden above bedrock. If the bedrock didn't pay out, we moved back up the hole and started dredging laterally into the area where we found the most gold going down. That is called a "pay streak" and we knew where it's depth was because we were always checking our dredge's sluice box for gold as we created the hole.

The geology of your glacer gold deposits are entirely different from the geology of the gold deposits I found while dredging flowing rivers. You seem to be dealing with "hot spots" and "pay streaks". But yours also seem to be harder to locate because of their randomness. You don't have the luxury of checking the strata of a dredging hole you created while excavating. I wish I could provide more helpful information that is relevant to your situation.

Are there any glacial streams or rivers running through your area?

Have you worked the beaches at low tide with your metal detector? Sounds like your "hot spots" are being washed out to sea.

James


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## warmgold

FrugalRefiner said:


> warmgold said:
> 
> 
> 
> so u Can work better and faster.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't use text lingo here. We have members around the world who don't speak English and have to use translators. Text lingo like "u" does not translate well, so we have a rule against using it.
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...


Sorry Dave


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## im1badpup1

View south of the beach. At the minute the sand material is typically 5-6ft deep here from cliff to low water mark. This is taken about 3 hours after top of tide. Notice how there is different sand and gravel accumulations building up from gentle wave action.
I cant prove yet as conditions arnt favourable but i believe best gold accumulation is just below the gravel humps on the beach. Not underneath but below. Its where on rare occasion ive found several larger upto 1cm gold in close proximity.


Looking north. You can see a slight angle the waves come in at. Its very important to be aware of longshore drift and the dominating winds and current causing this. It gives you knowledge of direction of travel of matrials and which side of a deposit is been eroded and the concentration most exposed. Try starting work on this point.

Backwash against the cliff bottom. Every tide hits the cliffs here. Theres a constant backwash of waves colliding. Most black sand deposits in about the first 10ft of here. A partial explanation is the pressure drop when one wave is hitting another in the backwash from the cliff. My testing done here ive found the microgold. Fines and small upto about 2-3mm. Its almost all flattenned flaky type gold.

I hope that helps visualise a little james. Im really very lucky as ive a combination of knowledge all learned independantly what collectively seems to help me nail the best areas to look for gold deposits. Ive just never actually looked until recently explicitly for gold.

How you explained looking for gold as indicator its on the bed i did the same last night. I saw a blacksand deposit went to the northerly eroded exposed side and i could see yellow flashes of light in the wet sand on the surface. Somes pyrite but somes gold and it makes sense if theres some on top theres more underneath.

Most of the deposits are very temporary appearing and disappearing sometimes in one or two tides. But the constant state of flux and fluidity almost of the beach deposits mean theyre replenished. If i can compare the coins ive found over the years to gold deposits accurately theres certain areas what persist in repeatedly depositing material. Ive had over 1500 coins in a small area of beach tens of metres in just a few weeks before. The pre 1950dates on almost every one tells me the coins was lost not long after and theyve been washing around ever since. Theyre certainly not static deposits or id of found them all at once then nothing after.

That type of blacksand i look for already is a concentrate and doesnt sluice well in a normal sluice it fills the riffles and moss up. Or the guy who tried sluicing it here with my uncle a couple decades ago had nt enough waterflow. But from memory when they increased waterflow they also blew the gold out.

I think the limitations on the beach here are a good deposit yields about a gram or so every hour of work put into it. But because of conditions like tide working time is only 3hours. Its an hour to get down and setup same when done. Its good for a hobby more than paying for itself but i bet a hard living to do everyday.
How you could be bothered to move 2-3m of overburden godnose you mustve hit some big paystreaks for it to be worthwhile lol


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## im1badpup1

This might sound crazy but i can find more objects eg coins scraping away the black sand in layers and out of gullys by hand without using a metal detector.
Me and 3-4 other ppl have done this for the last 20-25years i guess having that kind of local knowledge of hotspots is whats paying me off so well now.
The metal detector only really helps in finding a covered blacksand deposit or where metal is accumulating on the beach bed.
There is a connection between blacksand metal objects eg nails coins lead etc and gold deposition. Its not guranteed but indicitave. If i add other indicators into the equation and several are there there has been gold everytime ive tried. 
An example of multiple indicators for good concentrations here-
Blacksand - the type with not much magnetic
Coins metal lead etc
Close to bed
Undercliff or in rocks
Eroded deposition
Seeing yellow colour flashes in wet sand with headlamp.

Ive experimented and tried just single or double indicators and didnt do well.
I tried just the beach bed and a white sand deposit
The same under the cliff
Gravel and beachbed
Just blacksand
Metal deposits in whitesand
High % of magnetic blacksand.

I was going to try specifically for a day or two to hunt for sizeable nuggets but when i thought about what im about to explain youll see why i arnt bothering.
If half a dozen of us locals who have beachcombed for 25years with good knowledge only 1 has ever found a nugget weighing several grams. Between us weve had dozens of gold coins rings chains brooches etc so we certainly look in the right areas its just a fact large gold nuggets simply arnt there. Were more likely to find a dead body as macabre as the comparison is weve come across several in the years lol.
Gold artefacts turn up on the bed under black sand or trapped under rocks in bottom of gullys and small gold several tenths of a gram in the same areas as im sluicing so hopefully one day just maybe il get a big one..


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## cosmetal

Fascinating!

Thanks for the pics - not at all what I had visualized. 

More questions - but I only have time for one right now. When you are on the beach looking back at the cliff, do you see any horizontal stratification of sand and gravels or is it a homogeneous mix of sand and gravels?

Maybe one more - what is the approximate height of that cliff?

James


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## cosmetal

*"Were more likely to find a dead body as macabre as the comparison is weve come across several in the years lol."*

Not exactly what I would want to find in any of my activities.

I have to ask - victims of the cliff or some boating, swimming accidents? No disrespect to the deceased intended, but, they didn't weather out of your glacial till, right?

James


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## cosmetal

*"But because of conditions like tide working time is only 3hours. Its an hour to get down and setup same when done. Its good for a hobby more than paying for itself but i bet a hard living to do everyday."*

Completely agree. with that sort of time constraint.

Also,

*"Backwash against the cliff bottom. Every tide hits the cliffs here. Theres a constant backwash of waves colliding."*

There is no way that this area could be dredged safely.

Your pics definitely helped with my headache. But, I am going to have to admit defeat on any dredging I had hoped for you. The good news is that you seem to be doing everything right in your pursuit (Gold Cube, metal detector, chemical analysis etc.). And, you live in a county where there are many knowledgeable refiners and assayers who also populate this GRF board.

If I was you, I would contact someone in your area with assay knowledge and continue to pursue that path using a professional. At least until you know the mineral composition of what you are dealing with.

Try 

https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=84 

Hopefully your sulfides contain enough other PMs, and, with your Gold Cube, in 3 hours you could get a good amount of cons once you dial the Cube in and know what to look for. In this case, the placer gold that you find is a freebie that helps to pay the overhead.

Peace and best of luck, 
James


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## im1badpup1

Theres been accidental electrocution when someone cut a live mains hanging off the cliff another persons fell off and theres been a couple suicides and boating accident drownings where bodies wash up.

Thanks for the help though. Yes il be getting fire assay done on some samples and Theres good chance il find a better working location yet where conditions are more suitable


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## im1badpup1

I just wanted to post pictures how tiny the gold is what the goldcube has captured. I dont think it comes any smaller! 



Cant wait for my classifier set to come its the only way il get it out the concentrate properley and theres plenty in the concentrate


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## im1badpup1

I just wanted to post pictures how tiny the gold is what the goldcube has captured. 


Cant wait for my classifier set to come its the only way il get it out the concentrate properley and theres plenty in the concentrate

The brown looking stuff is gold for somereason my picture quality resolution isnt as good when uploaded onto the forum


Ive panned this twice already but im a learner panner


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## cosmetal

Good looking . . . you're on your way to being a true panner!  

Couple of pointers:

_*Make sure you pan into a water tub to catch any "escapees".

The bottom of your pan looks too smooth and is still shines. Take some very fine wet/dry sandpaper and scrub the bottom portion only. This is called "seasoning" your pan and it does help when going after very fine gold.

Definitely classify your cons and pan the last two of your screens to see where your gold is showing the most.

You said before that you do not run into a lot of magnetics. But, if you ever do, take a neodymium magnet from a HDD, put it into a heavy plastic bag and remove your magnetics before panning. Save the magnetics as you may have trapped some fine gold.*_

Have you viewed all of the videos at https://goldcube.net/gold-cube-university/ yet? The one titled "Fine Gold Recovery Challenge" is long but does have a lot of good pointers.

Let us know the results from your assays. :?: 

James


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## im1badpup1

Thanks the video link n tips have sure helped me out.

Ive been out today testing a couple of different locations. Im hoping to find a good accessable one.
Ive took some pics of the kind of locations im testing. Sounds hard to believe but every pan i did had yellow in it! 
The sand is brown it looks actually very much like the concentrate from the gold cube. In fact almost identical.

Sample 1 undercliff
I got most here 1st pan about 14 2nd pan over 25. 2nd pan id scraped the clay bed more.


Sample 2 clay bed gulley
I got 2 bits 1st pan and over a dozen with the 2nd having dug deeper into the crevice


Amongst rocks
2 the 1st pan both was the largest 2 flakes of the day. 2nd pan 9 smaller. Again id scraped the bed better with 2nd pan.
I did a couple of pans in each weather was atrocious wind blowing the water clean out the pan! How i managed to get any result is a feat in itself.

Its a much better concentration level than my previous location with this test by far. Several times better.


Exposed clay bed of beach. Theres channels and crevices full of heavy material and patches of concentrates scattered about.

Unfortunately its a similar problem of a working time of only 6hours or so here.

I know of a couple of other locations with huge heavy sand deposits of the same type as the ones ive been currently testing where accessability is good and can work 24/7 only the highest tides will cover. Unfortunately theres several feet of overburden on them presently but as the season changes they will become exposed. I think they will be the best concentrarion of gold in them too. Because theyre made up of repeated blacksand concentrate deposition and only partial erosion before another deposition on top. Several depositions all in one.

Im thinking of how best could a high volume sluice be made to suit the conditions and gold type material im after recovering? Im wondering if i can combine working a dredge sluice when the waters high and use the pump to operate a manual shovel fed sluice when tide goes out. I mean use the same sluice and pump with both ways. And whats the pumping range- limits of a dredge pipe?


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## im1badpup1

I tested cube tailings and im losing gold. Im sure a partial reason is the large amount of lead and lead like heavy metal ore. Theres gold down the cube in the matting not where expected and the lead heavy stuff is engulfing the best catchment area.

I thought about this as a solution. Using a magnetised bed what my material slides into hopefully trapping the heavy lead. The rest of the lighter material flows or rolls over the magnetite/iron filing magnetised bed.
The flow rate for a magnetised sluice ive seen is the same as the cube.
Then i thought if i can play it smart enough and use the correct strength magnets and shapes i can manipulate the geometry of the bed and create a concentric geometric pattern with varying density levels of filings.
So throughout the bed theres pockets of low resistance material can fall into as it flows.
If i get the magnet size and strength reasonably close the system should be forgiving in that magnetics will build up and clear at a certain point without actually clogging the system and density and gravity favouring gold as well as lead i should trap both well size been not a bad thing

So at the worst i trap the lead and keep my cube clean. 

i cant find any good information yet on magnets best size and shape. Quadrapolar positioning of rectangular magnets leaves a square hole or theres ring magnets of varying hole width. There wont be any actual hole though its more a moving fluid carpet of iron filings or oxides etc with high and low density pockets of resistance.
Il buy some n42 and n50 neodynium magnets in a few days but id welcome any information what helps determining size strength and shape to get in the meantime. Enough for a 12x12inch tray.

Ive one pattern in mind whats called halbach array. The link shows a 2 dimensional pattern of flux field. Stacked side by side itd create the low density pockets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array
the magnets here are cubes in line and can be added to indefinately
. The next line slightly offset and so on.
Id probably sink the cubes in plasticine and put a plastic sheet over to test. It means the sluice bed is level and its easy to swop and change configurations and manipulate magnetic field strength


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## im1badpup1

Ive got a nice sieve set so im able to size my blacksand concentrate from 10 to 100 mesh 10 20 30 and so on.
Its made an amazing difference to panning the concentrate out well. At 30 to 50 mesh i found 1 or 2 pieces per pan id missed. At 60 about a dozen.
80mesh and my concentrates come alive with gold particles, 50+. Im finishing off the 90 and 100 later today. Im hopeful for 'invisible' gold in the smallest mesh pan.
Theres some really heavy material in the last spoonful of the pans i was wondering if i was to oxidise and then reduce to a small pig bar would an xrf give me a good enough reading to determine whats in the bar?
It doesnt have to be particulaly accurate in % of the elements contained just knowing whats there will do. And what collector metal would be most compatible for xrf reading?

Its just i can get an xrf reading done same day for a tenner i dont have spare cash for fire assay yet.

Il post a couple close up pics of the concentrate ive panned from the concentrate later. The concentrate ratio is high when i worked out my blacksand is already very concentrate to begin with eg no blondesands then im getting 2-3litres per ton max. Have sized and concentrated by panning that to just several ounces in total.


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## cuchugold

Forget the XRF. Do a torch assay. Same as a fire assay but less accurate. Your gold reading will be within 1/1000. You only need access to an accurate balance, not even your own. Do the fusion melt, and place the lead button in a cupel, then aim a torch with an oxidizing flame about 5 mm above the lead button, and wait for it to cupel. Use added silver in a ratio of 2.5-2.75 to the amount of gold. Then part the silvery button in nitric acid, and weigh it. Total cost is about $5.00.

Re. magnet use: The proper way to use a strong magnet is above the black sands, not under the pan. Copper, silver, and gold are moderately repelled by a strong magnet (diamagnetic), while magnetite and others are attracted. 

Also, impure gold in extremely fine particles will look brownish or black, and get mixed up with the black sands.


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## g_axelsson

Do you have an UV-light lamp? (Black light) If you do, use it and watch if there is any fluorescence in that heavy sand concentrate.
Zircon and scheelite often shows up in the black sand concentrate. I have had pans that looked like a starlight sky when I tried it. Zircon is bright orange and scheelite from bluish white to yellowish depending on amount of molybdenum in it (scheelite - powellite series).

I don't know if you will be helped by knowing if there is a lot of zircon or scheelite in your concentrate, but it never hurts to know. Maybe you could use it as a trace mineral of where the gold hides out in the field.

Göran


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## im1badpup1

At 100 mesh the strangest sights while panning..
It looked like liquid metal at one point after id panned so much off. Thats all the magnetite and hematite completley removed at this point. They was lighter than this material. It wasnt actually liquid metal. Just tiny particles flowing. 


Then that layer have way to this sediment a strange bright shiny metal sat with the lead amd gold . I found an amalgamated ball of mercury what had picked up most the gold.



Im wondering if any of the brown/black particles are similar to what you mention cuchu?
I was under the impression about the magnets it depends on the impurities in the gold to how itl react to magnetism. I was going to add a riffle set or trap with magnets to try stop some of the lead entering and filling my goldcube prematurely. Then a mat after the cube with areas of low-no magnetism hopefully heavies will fall into and settle. But use magnetite or iron filings to create the mat. Ive got a mineral what if i drop on the magnet it bounces away. Orange one.

I noticed a few zircons in my sediments goran il try a uv and see what reacts itl be interesting to see. I think it may help if i was somewhere else looking primarily for platinum group metals the geology where im thinking of is much different and concentrated areas arnt so easily defined by visible black sand. But garnets and zircon and similar gather in patches. Id bet its a good place to start looking and uv would help spot them.

The mercury contamination was my fault. Id opened a container with mercury inside over my pan at one point to put material in. Some was caught in the screwcap and fell out into my pan and sediment.
Its why i only open a container over a water catchment when it contains mercury.

I demagnetised the residue with n52. Decided seen as mercury was present id add more and amalgamate everything what will amalgamate.
Mercury sits on top of this stuff whats left. Ive removed it and dried the residue and this is whats left


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## im1badpup1

Thanks all who have helped n give me good advice and tips. Im about at the end of my thread now, if i start anymore il try be a bit more informative and better presented with my posts. Makes things easier for people whose first language isnt english.

Does anyone want any information about the goldcube i mean if youve any ideas to change things around and improve or maximise its performance for certain conditions?
Id be happy to run some tests with it and post results.
Im thinking about to classify and size material and run the pump at a certain rate.

Because all my gold is small im going to reduce material size i feed and slow flow rate to see if i can increase capture rates. Beachgold like mine is apparantly difficult to capture been very small smooth flat pieces.


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## cosmetal

im1badpup1 said:


> Thanks all who have helped n give me good advice and tips. Im about at the end of my thread now, if i start anymore il try be a bit more informative and better presented with my posts. Makes things easier for people whose first language isnt english.
> 
> Does anyone want any information about the goldcube i mean if youve any ideas to change things around and improve or maximise its performance for certain conditions?
> Id be happy to run some tests with it and post results.
> Im thinking about to classify and size material and run the pump at a certain rate.
> 
> Because all my gold is small im going to reduce material size i feed and slow flow rate to see if i can increase capture rates. Beachgold like mine is apparantly difficult to capture been very small smooth flat pieces.



I enjoyed the thread.  

I was hoping that what you first showed us was coming from a flowing water source - my personal experience with placer gold is more relevant to that environment.

Not to add too many questions to a closing thread, but, have you any experience with a Blue Bowl or Miller Table? They work slower than the Cube and will keep more of the fines. As you said, the Cube is a super concentrator. So, when you're onsite, "super concentrate" into some sort of catch basin and finish those basin cons with a bowl or table offsite where you're warm and have a pint next to you! :wink: 

Peace!
James


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## im1badpup1

Thanks james i do have a river/estuary location i tried once its just wrong time of year to go there. Theres a clay silt deposit on the blacksand concentrate what clears best in late spring when rain washes it clean.

No ive no experience with miller tables or blue bowls. I keep looking at them and similar on u tube in operation. Theyre a cleanup tool really?
Ive been more focused on concentrators to get a worthwhile concentrate to process further. Im still debating with myself at what point do i cutoff concentrating and separating the easy material and chemically extract and purify the rest.
Im not sure if a miller table or bluebowl will separate lead and gold effectively and i really doubt it can separate pgms. All ive seen what separated lead and gold so far is a shaker table and again this still left remaining inseparable concentrate.

Im looking into the chemical processes involved in separation and purifaction more now too.
For me to separate gold from pgms id amalgamate the gold.
Ive got a lot of lead in my concentrate and it contains precious metals from what i can determine when i did a cupellation on it. But to separate from the gold i guess most convenient is dissolve in hydrochloric acid.

Ive not checked my sulfides for precious metals yet if my elemental leads argentiferous theres hope for the galena, i was thinking of adapting whats on this research paper to extract the values, 
CHLORIDE–HYPOCHLORITE OXIDATION AND LEACHING OF REFRACTORY SULFIDE GOLD CONCENTRATE Mehdi Ghobeiti HASAB, Fereshteh RASHCHI, Shahram RAYGAN
Sorry i cant paste a link with this phone.
I used to do a similar but more complex reaction years ago 82% what they got is easy the reaction becomes hindered at about 90-92% but given this is far simpler in mechanism it could give higher.
I would say this reaction runs best dilute at lower temperatures giving time for the multiple chlorination to take place and prevent cl from escaping into the atmosphere. Preparation is key the material must be finely divided.
It makes far more sense than what ive been reading about adding hcl and ph of 3-4 what has been confusing the hell out of me.

Id be left with a bunch of metal chlorides in solution. And chlorides non soluble but either way i can separate them now.


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## cosmetal

Both the Blue Bowl and The Miller Table will help to further concentrate your material depending upon how fast you set up your water flow. They're both good tools to get rid of the more base metals with lower densities than Pb and the PMs, especially if you're going to use wet chemical methods for final refining. Plus, if you're handy, you can build your own models. As you no doubt know, for refining, "the cleaner the better".  

*"i do have a river/estuary location i tried once its just wrong time of year to go there".*

I bet you didn't use a 4" or 6" suction dredge with a hookah air set-up and a black sand concentrator on the end of the main sluice. Also, a power winch with a rock sling would be nice. From what I have seen of your gold, I would love to be on your river/estuary with either of them!  Look out bedrock!

Ah! The memories . . . !


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## cuchugold

im1badpup1 said:


> I'm still debating with myself at what point do i cutoff concentrating and separating the easy material and chemically extract and purify the rest.


 I think the cutoff is between 150 and 250 mesh. Notice that probably all of the gangue above 150 mesh is worthless after gravity concentration, so you only need to process chemically the stuff smaller than that, which is always a small % of the original amount of material. Probably the best route is to accumulate it to chemically process when a certain estimated amount of $ are in there. Sieving gives you a real good idea of what values are at what size. (Deano's idea).


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