# What happens if you use cement silver directly in a silver cell?



## fries (Oct 30, 2019)

Just like the title, I was wondering what happens if you use cement silver directly in a silver cell with out turning it into silver shot first.

Thanks


----------



## butcher (Oct 30, 2019)

Well, my answer is you would have a lot of (cemented) silver in the anode bag with the rest of the slime.


How are you planning to connect the metal powders to the power source?

How are you going to conduct current through the mass of powders like a solid silver anode would without resistance loses that the individual powders would have to try to conducting current through them.


----------



## Shark (Oct 30, 2019)

Why would you not melt it first?


----------



## fries (Oct 31, 2019)

@butcher A constant current PSU should take care of the resistive losses. But yeah - I foresee a lot of cement in the sludge. My cell is vertical, consisting of a salt bridge plug inside a the anode tube which is suspended in a graduated cylinder. I'm hoping that this setup will have less liquid in the anode tube/bag than normal. I plan to use a silver coin and alligator clip to make the connection to the top of the cement.

@Shark 1. I can't find any explanation as to why you need shot instead of cement, which is why I'm asking the question. 2. I don't like having a monkey see monkey do attitude. 3. I tried to melt it and I don't think my torch was hot enough. I only have a propane/butane mix torch. It ended up being a big mess with semi-melted borax everywhere and I had to redissolve everything.


----------



## butcher (Oct 31, 2019)

You do not understand how the electrolytic cell works.

For now, work on being able to melt silver.
You need to be able to melt it into an anode.

One option without melting the powders is that you could use nitric acid to put the cemented powders back into solution and use that for the electrolyte, and the silver coins you could use as anodes...


----------



## fries (Oct 31, 2019)

> You do not understand how the electrolytic cell works.



What a ridiculous presumption, what have I said that gives you that impression?

I know how it works, and expect that the silver cement, if contained above the electrolyte level on a salt bridge, might remain viscous enough to act as an anode itself, to varying degrees of success. 

Either way, I got the cement hot enough to sinter it into a hard brittle spongy mass that is highly conductive and can be broken into pieces to feed the anode bag. Problem solved.


----------



## galenrog (Oct 31, 2019)

A solid anode improves conductivity throughout the anode. 

Compacting cemented powders and expecting the same conductivity is a bit naive. It may work for a few minutes, or even a few hours, but once a small part of the compacted silver anode has dissolved, the cell will become unproductive. Possibly to the point of power supply failure.

You don’t have to understand why powders are less conductive than solids, just that they are. 

I compare your cemented silver anode to a cold, brittle solder joint. While it may work for a few minutes, the stresses caused by normal use will cause failure. 

Then, again, my analogy may be full of holes. There are times when the stroke, although several years past, continues to plague the brain I have left.

Do as you wish.

Time for more coffee.


----------



## Shark (Oct 31, 2019)

The simple cure would be to get a decent source to melt silver with. I will never understand why people are so adamant about using heat sources that are well documented as not being able to do the job. At least "monkey see monkey do" gets the job done, makes the money, and allows for the purchase of better equipment. Or build a small, basic melting furnace. 

I am not sure what galenrog means by "compacting powders" but that was my next idea. A simple mold and a hydraulic press. See how compressing the powders into a pellet might work. I have no idea how it would work, so if you try it, let us know.


----------



## fries (Nov 1, 2019)

As I said, sintering it seems to have worked.

How are you making money from this? No one around here seems to want to sell scrap silver.

I just wanted to try it because I thought it was interesting.


----------



## galenrog (Nov 1, 2019)

My apologies for my incomprehensible post from yesterday. Apparently, I made the post about an hour after being administered post surgical meds. Note to self: listen to medical professionals, especially when you are married to one. Do not try to write anything until after major effects of meds wear off. 

Again, apologies.


----------



## Shark (Nov 1, 2019)

galenrog said:


> My apologies for my incomprehensible post from yesterday. Apparently, I made the post about an hour after being administered post surgical meds. Note to self: listen to medical professionals, especially when you are married to one. Do not try to write anything until after major effects of meds wear off.
> 
> Again, apologies.



I understand completely, I have been there and done that. When I had my last stroke the doctors told me to find something to occupy my mind as the out look physically was not good, that is when I started to learn refining. Some days the physical side is good and some days the mental side, then there are those days when neither side seems worth a wooden nickle, ahhh but the flowers are much prettier from this side of the dirt.


----------



## Shark (Nov 1, 2019)

fries said:


> As I said, sintering it seems to have worked.
> 
> How are you making money from this? No one around here seems to want to sell scrap silver.
> 
> I just wanted to try it because I thought it was interesting.



I have no idea how the markets are where you are so, in general, you buy low and sell high. I mainly work with gold, and I am a small scale hobbyist. I would start by finding someone who pays good for fine silver, then price my purchase price around that. Work on a profit based percentage that fall's somewhere in between the two. Here I can find silver but most local buyers do not pay very well, and it can be as low as 60% of spot prices, making it hard to buy quantity. My primary source for silver is very often from buying gold filled material in bulk lots and picking up a few pieces at random here and there. With time, if you get the word out that your buying, and paying a decent price some people will start coming to you to sell their scraps. Play honest, and you might find more business than you ever expected.


----------



## fries (Nov 4, 2019)

Interesting. Apparently around here, the cash for gold places will pay 5% below spot for your silver scrap, so it's hard to buy lower than that. Usually you're buying scrap at slightly above spot price.


----------



## Shark (Nov 4, 2019)

There is always someone that will sell for less, we just have to look harder and in other places. A big part of my silver comes from picking up one or two pieces of jewelry here and there. Over time it adds up. Occasionally I get lucky and find some flatware at a good price, or pick up a silver bar from some odd place. Keep looking and study how the local markets are working, there is almost always a way to get in on the business. The first buyer I approached with a gold button offered me 75% of spot at 12karat. I later sold that same button to another buyer for 95% of spot at 24karat. Just keep looking and always pay attention to the details.


----------

