# What can one expect to get for unmarked gold?



## mikeinkaty (Dec 11, 2012)

I don't see any place on this forum for general questions so I'll drop it here. If there is can a moderator move it for me?

Hypothetical question - 10 years from now I need money and take my unmarked gold to a local buyer and they only offer 95% of spot price or maybe even just 90%. What can I do now to avoid this situation? 

What do people do now when they want to sell unmarked gold (maybe gold they refined and poured themselves).

Maybe the general question is - What can one do to maximize ROI with unmarked gold? Maybe I need to go look for a "Gold Selling Forum"?

The thing that concerns me is that my heirs will not know how to best sell unmarked gold. That maybe I should convert it now to commercial gold while I can.

Thanks
Mike


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## its-all-a-lie (Dec 11, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> The thing that concerns me is that my heirs will not know how to best sell unmarked gold. That maybe I should convert it now to commercial gold while I can.
> 
> Thanks
> Mike



I have thought about that myself, my refined gold is sold and commercial gold and silver is bought. It probably wouldnt hurt to educate them about where to sell if and when the need arises.


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## Geo (Dec 11, 2012)

if you refined the gold and poured it yourself, you can have an assay done of the individual pieces. that would be your best option if you want to know the gold content of an object.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 11, 2012)

Geo said:


> if you refined the gold and poured it yourself, you can have an assay done of the individual pieces. that would be your best option if you want to know the gold content of an object.


That's not the problem. The problem is I walk into a gold buyers business and they offer me 95%, or less, on an unmarked bullion piece.

I can sell marked bullion to my buyer now for spot price. I have never tried to sell him unmarked bullion and I have never asked him about it. He sells marked gold bullion bars (999+) and most 999+ gold coins at 5% over spot. This for cash money and without postage fees and any 'paper work'.

Ok, I just called him and asked. He said he pays 7%-8% below spot for unmarked stuff.

So, If I purchase unmarked bullion and want to convert it to marked stuff I would be suffering like a 12%-13% spread! That won't cut it for me! I would have to acquire the unmarked stuff at 20-25% off spot to get any kind of a descent ROI. 

Mike


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## Geo (Dec 11, 2012)

actually, that sounds about right. the gold buyer may make 5%-6% on the buy and the refiner will make about 5% when he buys from him. if you want to get 98% spot yourself, you may have to find a refiner to sell to.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 11, 2012)

You might want to contact Lou. He is a refiner and if memory serves me right, his payouts are a little higher for high quality materials, e.g., gold with a pipe.

Then you can buy rounds or bullion bars. You should be able to beat 5% over spot. There are a couple of companies that have been mentioned on the forum. I have dealt with Goldmart and been satisfied. Be sure to check all their fees and minimums, especially on smaller orders. You may be able to find a local coin shop for rounds and avoid fees, shipping and insurance, etc.

Dave


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 11, 2012)

Well, if Goldmart is a reputable company, I can order Credit Suisse 1 oz bars from them for a little less than 2.5% over spot today and that includes shipping. That 2.5% would go down even more with larger orders. I have been buying from Apmex. That does beat the 5% over spot that I have been paying locally. When I buy locally I go across the street to my bank, go back and buy, then back to the bank to my safe deposit box. Wham, bam, thank you mam!

Now if I can refine it and get 5% under spot as advertised by Midwest Refineries that would be about a 7% to 8% spread (not counting shipping).

So, if I can get GOOD scrap at 80% then that would give me a margin of 10%. I could live with that and not wind up having a costly hobby. Everything would still hinge on getting GOOD scrap and being able to successfully refine it without killing myself!

Mike


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## Geo (Dec 11, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> Well, if Goldmart is a reputable company, I can order Credit Suisse 1 oz bars from them for a little less than 2.5% over spot today and that includes shipping. That 2.5% would go down even more with larger orders. I have been buying from Apmex. That does beat the 5% over spot that I have been paying locally. When I buy locally I go across the street to my bank, go back and buy, then back to the bank to my safe deposit box. Wham, bam, thank you mam!
> 
> Now if I can refine it and get 5% under spot as advertised by Midwest Refineries that would be about a 7% to 8% spread (not counting shipping).
> 
> ...



there are some that believe that a collapse of the banking system will happen in the near future. maybe and maybe not, but something to think about. if a collapse happens, your money will be worthless and the only money that will be accepted will be gold and silver. also, if and when the collapse happens, you will not be able to access your bank accounts or safe deposit box. Harold recommends anyone that is concerned about this to take physical possession of your gold and keep it safe at home.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 11, 2012)

Geo said:


> mikeinkaty said:
> 
> 
> > Well, if Goldmart is a reputable company, I can order Credit Suisse 1 oz bars from them for a little less than 2.5% over spot today and that includes shipping. That 2.5% would go down even more with larger orders. I have been buying from Apmex. That does beat the 5% over spot that I have been paying locally. When I buy locally I go across the street to my bank, go back and buy, then back to the bank to my safe deposit box. Wham, bam, thank you mam!
> ...



Well, if we can't get to our SDB then we're in big do-do! What I'm doing now is adding insurance to my investments. Of course, after Dec 21 all of this won't matter anyway!


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## nickvc (Dec 12, 2012)

The problem with unmarked items is the risk that the content may well be below any standard karat so buying it takes good testing techniques and knowledge but it's still to a certain extent guess work,keeping standards to compare with helps. Big buyers have xrf guns and here they earn their cost if you know how to use one. Once you have the materials if you can buy cheap enough to cover the risks I would be tempted to keep them until you have reasonable quantities if your finances allow and simply melt and obtain a fire assay from the bar, this will tell you exactly what you have and allow better terms from your refiner of choice 97%+ . To check your buying right and to give you a good idea of the content of your bar keep notes of what you think each item was and don't be over optimistic so if the gold contents higher it's a bonus not a shock, the alternative to this is to refine the material yourself but that takes time, knowledge, some equipment and the chemicals, the bonus here is if you do it properly you have a product that those with some knowledge will instantly recognise as fine gold and the spin offs of silver and possibly some platinum group metals to help offset any costs.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 13, 2012)

nickvc said:


> The problem with unmarked items is the risk that the content may well be below any standard karat so buying it takes good testing techniques and knowledge but it's still to a certain extent guess work,keeping standards to compare with helps. Big buyers have xrf guns and here they earn their cost if you know how to use one. Once you have the materials if you can buy cheap enough to cover the risks I would be tempted to keep them until you have reasonable quantities if your finances allow and simply melt and obtain a fire assay from the bar, this will tell you exactly what you have and allow better terms from your refiner of choice 97%+ . To check your buying right and to give you a good idea of the content of your bar keep notes of what you think each item was and don't be over optimistic so if the gold contents higher it's a bonus not a shock, the alternative to this is to refine the material yourself but that takes time, knowledge, some equipment and the chemicals, the bonus here is if you do it properly you have a product that those with some knowledge will instantly recognise as fine gold and the spin offs of silver and possibly some platinum group metals to help offset any costs.



I emailed Midwest Refinery and they do fire assay on any bar over 3 ozs. Under that they use the xrf guns. In both cases they pay 95% of the spot price based on the amount of pure gold in your bars. I'm thinking now that I would probably keep my gold powder until such time I could pour a 3 oz bar. But, I reserve the right to change my thinking at any time!


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## Anonymous (Jan 5, 2013)

If you want to sell your gold for spot price and (or) over spot, then you'll need a two-part mold, and after you poured the gold, simply add the stamping to it. 

I found that precious metals that are stamped (hallmarked), people are more likely to buy it from you than to buy precious metals without a stamp. Some places don't even want to test it without a stamp, at least that's what I found out, because they're not interested, because it wasn't stamped.

If you really want at least spot price for your gold in the future, simply stay here and I'm sure you'll get it. 

Kevin


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## butcher (Jan 5, 2013)

kevin,

I do not think it works quite like that.


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## Anonymous (Jan 5, 2013)

butcher said:


> kevin,
> 
> I do not think it works quite like that.


Well, I had some silver that I took to a pawnshop before and they wouldn't take it. A few months later when I got more supplies and equipment, I poured that same silver into a two-part mold, stamped it, took it back to that same pawnshop and then they offered me money for it.

What I'm saying is many people that are in this field look for stampings sometimes, although the "pipe" in the gold is a good indicator of its pureness, some people/businesses feel more assured of what they're bargaining with/for when it's stamped. 

I'm not implying that every piece of precious metal you get you should stamp, but if you took that piece to a place that don't want it when you know it isn't stamped, I'm confident they'll at least test it and maybe do business with you if you took that same piece back and it was stamped.

Maybe it work differently in different parts of the U.S. and other parts of the world.

As a matter of fact, there is a member here that will trade you silver rounds for your scrap silver, minus the other fees involved with doing business. I calculated what I would get in return a bit over, due to me not calculating the fees correctly, but I wasn't off by much. For what I bargained with, I got pretty close to spot price for my silver. The pawnshops wouldn't take my silver (I only pawn... not sell), but now since I have rounds that are stamped, they immediately offered me money.

I, personally believe that if your precious metal is molded as close to a minting, and stamped, a person can get more for their precious metal(s) than it being unstamped... not unless they're dealing with gold buyers, which know what to look for. Pawnbrokers don't know much about precious metals. They'll test it and give you what they are told to give you, no matter what it's worth. I've been through that many times now.

But I believe if a person is offered one price for a piece of unmarked gold, then take that same piece back after remolding it and stamping it (make it look like it came from a mint), they would get more for it, besides not being stamped.

I have lots to learn about precious metals, but it's becoming very clear to me how the market works dealing with precious metals (depending on the stock market and demand).

Kevin


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## Dan Dement (Jan 6, 2013)

Kevin,

This week, I bought a stamped 99.9% pure Silver bar that was 52% pure. Stamps and molds are cheap. I think what you need to do is go to the other side of the fence and Buy stamped bars at spot value. Go and rent a store front, hire employees, buy a big nice safe, get your Insurance and UL certified alarm, buy all your testing equipment, get all your equipment to make your molds and set up shop. Buy at spot prices and sell it over spot and wait for the great weeks that gold & silver takes a nice $40 or $50. dump like it did this week and report back to the Forum how you are doing! 

Perhaps the Governement will give you a nice loan to set your business up. Take you entire life savings and go for it!

Dan


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## anton.nicolae20 (Jan 8, 2013)

hey guys, sorry for the question, i'm a noobie  what exactly is the "pipe" of gold?


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## niteliteone (Jan 8, 2013)

anton.nicolae20 said:


> hey guys, sorry for the question, i'm a noobie  what exactly is the "pipe" of gold?



The pipe is actually a depression or cave in of the surface of a gold nugget that forms as the said nugget cools after being melted. As the gold gets MORE pure it developes a few unique characteristics.
It is NOT found in any but the purest of gold nuggets. The pipe will usually be surrounded with what looks like cracks or scaling on the surface.
Look at the avatar of ""Philddreamer"" and you can see an example of the surface cracking and a pipe in the center.

Not the best help, but hopefully you can get the idea, or someone with a more clear head can help better.


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