# To precipitate AP with SMB or not ?



## beerboy (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok, Ive used the search button read read watched lazersteve vids that are great by the way !
My issue is i have some used AP see picture so iv read and seen people say to add SMB and percipitate gold iv also seen others say to add copper buss bar to solution drop the precious metals . 
not sure how to proceed also if i add SMB wait 24 hrs and siphon wash with HCL then water then use HCL/CL to finish.
or does the SMB render the AP useless ?
also seen people say to add iron to drop the copper .

or should i just siphon wash with HCL and reuse the AP without using SMB /Copper or Iron ?
thanks in advance for suggestions.

Is the grey mud is gold?


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## manorman (Jan 10, 2012)

Did you remove gold foils from this AP?
Mike


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## beerboy (Jan 10, 2012)

yes i ran it through coffee filter twice.


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## ericrm (Jan 10, 2012)

i dont know for other but personnaly i never use smb with ap,if i think that i may have disolve gold in it ,i just put it aside with a copper bar to cement any gold that might be in solution.BUT your not supposed to have gold disolved in your ap.

i dont think that the gray powder is gold (gold should looklike golden flake) 

someone corect me if im wrong but what is left behind from smb and hcl is salted water,so you will just end up with dilute ap

also can you tell more about what you exactly did?


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## beerboy (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok this is AP i used to dissolve finger boards and a few CPU's i used it in a bucket with a bubbler stone and a fish tank bubbler after i removed the processed finger boards from the solution i ran the ap through a coffee filter twice then put it in the container you see it has been setting since 26Th of December in a cool dark place.


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## Geo (Jan 11, 2012)

any gold that may have dissolved into solution would have plated back out long before the process finished so theres no need to add SMB.re-use the AP solution as its already loaded with copper chloride so theres no need for peroxide,just add a little fresh hcl when you start your next batch.


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## butcher (Jan 11, 2012)

Beer boy,
Question Quote
"Ok, I’ve used the search button read watched Laser Steve’s videos, they are great by the way!
My issue is I have some used AP see picture so iv read and seen people say to add SMB and precipitate gold, I have also seen others say to add copper buss bar to solution drop the precious metals.”

My attempt at an answer:
That looks like a beer bottle, or else the solution is very dark. It is hard for me to tell from picture; also it looks like you may have dissolved some solder (looks like white lead chloride powder in bottom).

If that is a beer bottle I hope you do not drink beer in your lab, you could find yourself sipping out of the wrong bottle some day when your fascinated by gold flakes floating in a jar and holding your attention.
Acid peroxide method should just be used to dissolve copper, if you added too much oxidizer (hydrogen peroxide) you may have put gold into solution, did you get the gold foils un-dissolved, which are easily separated from the acid peroxide solution.

If you did dissolve the gold you can get it back out by reusing this solution on more memory fingers, or the copper buss bar, the copper chloride solution can be regenerated and reused, no need to use SMB on it.
Stannous chloride test will tell you if your gold is in solution, but your gold could still also be in with the original materials (hope you did not discard them).

If reusing the solution decant the solution from the salts, filter solution, The lead salts could also have some gold so save them in a jar until you learn how to separate any gold from them, it is normally best to keep solder out of processes (acid peroxide is somewhat forgiving as long as you understand how to deal with it and also do not have too much in solution), (solder in some of the other processes is a good way to insure failure of a project and loss of your gold), it is just best to not get lead, tin, solder, or aluminum into any process.

Question:
Not sure how to proceed also if i add SMB wait 24 Hrs and siphon wash with HCL then water then use HCL/CL to finish.

My attempt at answer: 
No need for SMB with acid peroxide.
HCl/Cl is used to dissolve gold foils, which are separated from solution by filtering, from your picture I cannot see those foils is this what you have. Where is your gold.

Question:
Or does the SMB render the AP useless?

Answer: Yes

Question:
Also seen people say to add iron to drop the copper.

We suggest this when some one makes a mess from doing things wrong, usually the have not done their homework or still do not understand the process they are trying, or just mess up a solution to where recovering gold from it is all but impossible with other methods. Which from this post sounds like you also need to go back and do some more surfing through the forum and Laser Steve's site (read the copper chloride document until it make clear sense, study Hoke’s book do the getting acquainted experiments she walk’s you through, pay attention to testing for metals in solution.

Question:
Or should I just siphon wash with HCL and reuse the AP without using SMB /Copper or Iron?
Answer: yes (see above).

Thanks in advance for suggestions.
(You are welcome).

Question:
Is the gray mud is gold?
Answer:
Nope looks like lead solder to me. In acid peroxide gold is gold, it has not changed forms, it just separates from copper, and most of the base metals. (Although you may have some value, in the gray mud depending on conditions).


Beer boy
Quote:
Ok this is AP I used to dissolve finger boards and a few CPU's I used it in a bucket with a bubbler stone and a fish tank bubbler after I removed the processed finger boards from the solution I ran the Acid Peroxide through a coffee filter twice then put it in the container you see it has been setting since 26Th of December in a cool dark place.

Answer attempt: 
Best to process materials separately (especially until you understand the mechanics of the processes, and how to deal with the problems encountered working outside of the normal recommended procedures).

Beer boy quote:
Yes I ran it through coffee filter twice.

My attempt at answer:
Where are the gold foils?
Dissolved into solution? Or still in the original reaction vessel as solids or plated out onto base metals? Did you test solution with stannous chloride?
Where is your stannous chloride? And test results?

You have really not given us enough information to help you out, all I can say at this point is you need more studying, and provide us with better details of your problem once you do study and understand the process and run into a snag, unless you give more details all I see here is one big snag or mess, would like to help you learn this so my suggestion is put the chemicals up safely for now do some more homework

Laser Steve’s website for process your on now, Hokes book to learn the principles of most all recovery and processing, the forum for all of the general information.

Also we would first need you to understand the processes, so that your question will also make more sense to us, and then give us better details of you situation, when you do have questions.

Welcome to the forum this is a fun hobby but nobody said the learning would be easy but you will find it fun, I have answered your questions to the best of my ability and would like to help you succeed getting pretty gold buttons, I hope you take my answers as they were meant, to help you to see if your going down the wrong path, (if this is not the case, let me know because all I can give answers to, is what you posted and what I perceived may have happened, or could be your problem, or what I perceive your understanding of the processes is at this early stage in your journey).

Beer Boy

GOT HOKE’S :?: 

(see book section for download)
(also see safety section study dealing with waste)


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## beerboy (Jan 11, 2012)

Thank you ! you answered my questions , I did remove the foils and processed them with HCL/CL already this is a picture of my 8 grain nugget.

PS i have DL hokes Book and read the gold section.


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## butcher (Jan 12, 2012)

Good job looks like you are much further along than I thought.

I would spend some time with Hokes book, her experiments on getting acquainted and testing solutions is invaluable, it will give you an understanding of many of the principles of metals in acids how they react, and how you can recognize some of them, and it can teach you how to deal with many problems you will encounter while recovering or refining your metals.

I am still curios was that a beer bottle, (amber or clear?) in the picture or was it the color of the solution?

Now lets see if we put the gold button back in the ground if it will grow.
just make sure you remember where you planted it.


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## beerboy (Jan 12, 2012)

thanks ! that was a plastic juice kraft from walfart it was clear my solution color is very dark and has a brownish green tint to it the brown i think is from the ferrous material in the CPU pins. it does turn a nice green though when i add some HCL to the solution .


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## butcher (Jan 12, 2012)

The Copper II Chloride solution will be green, the Copper I Chloride in solution can make it change to brown, (too much Copper I chloride and it will settle out as white powder, in bottom of jar) adding HCl and some oxygen the Copper I Chloride, will convert back into the green copper II chloride, (ready to dissolve more copper.

Iron in chloride is also green, and it can be hard to tell if the solution is copper or iron or both.
Iron in less acidic solutions will usually form a rust ring (iron hydroxide), on jar at top of solution, where it is exposed to air, Iron will also push copper out of solution.

I would get some canning jars to work out of (or labglass), plastic containers would not be my choice.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 13, 2012)

I keep telling everyone that silver chloride is soluble in strong HCl and doesn't precipitate quickly until addition of an oxidizer especially nitric is added. If the HCl is very very strong, SMB will drop NaCl as well as reduce HAgCl2 to AgCl. But that looks like the chloride group to me (PbCl, AgCl, HgClx). The solution a top, does seem to have a deep purple hue. As if gold re-precipitated at near colloidal.. I bet a centrifuge would clear up things. Dr. Poe


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## beerboy (Jan 13, 2012)

butcher said:


> Good job looks like you are much further along than I thought.
> 
> I would spend some time with Hokes book, her experiments on getting acquainted and testing solutions is invaluable, it will give you an understanding of many of the principles of metals in acids how they react, and how you can recognize some of them, and it can teach you how to deal with many problems you will encounter while recovering or refining your metals.
> 
> ...


Ahh i see you are a felow oregonian ...What is the hazzard from using plastic it seem to be inpervious to the AP soulution and has a less breaking hazzard?


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## beerboy (Jan 13, 2012)

Dr. Poe said:


> I keep telling everyone that silver chloride is soluble in strong HCl and doesn't precipitate quickly until addition of an oxidizer especially nitric is added. If the HCl is very very strong, SMB will drop NaCl as well as reduce HAgCl2 to AgCl. But that looks like the chloride group to me (PbCl, AgCl, HgClx). The solution a top, does seem to have a deep purple hue. As if gold re-precipitated at near colloidal.. I bet a centrifuge would clear up things. Dr. Poe


No purple hue here just a brownish green .


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## butcher (Jan 13, 2012)

some types of plastics can break down in the strong acidic enviroments we use, also plastic scratches easily,cannot be heated much, and sometimes has a fuzzy surface that can trap powder, there are a few processes I do use plastic, but glass for the most part is my preference, it can be cleaned, rinsed, sometimes heated (depending on type), easily seen through, salts formed on its surface are easily washed or removed, I guess I just like glass better, think about it this way, would you rather drink your beer from sitting in a plasitic bottle, or from being bottled in the glass, which one of the materials if you drank beer from you would taste?


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## beerboy (Jan 15, 2012)

butcher said:


> some types of plastics can break down in the strong acidic enviroments we use, also plastic scratches easily,cannot be heated much, and sometimes has a fuzzy surface that can trap powder, there are a few processes I do use plastic, but glass for the most part is my preference, it can be cleaned, rinsed, sometimes heated (depending on type), easily seen through, salts formed on its surface are easily washed or removed, I guess I just like glass better, think about it this way, would you rather drink your beer from sitting in a plasitic bottle, or from being bottled in the glass, which one of the materials if you drank beer from you would taste?


Ok I understand the Beerboy Nick is from years ago I don't drink beer much anymore ,now rum is another story rumman doesn't have the same ring to it. And the rum comes out of a glass bottle...


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## lazersteve (Jan 31, 2012)

The gray powder is very likely copper one chloride. 

It should dissolve in HCl to a dark brown liquid and leave any values as solids behind.

Search for my posts on Acid Peroxide Help and Acid Peroxide Info

Steve


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## patnor1011 (Jan 31, 2012)

Some plating on fingers is very thin so we will not see foil, gold will disintegrate to fine powder. Agitating AP solution break up foils too specially on those thin flash plated fingers. Powdered gold will be at bottom of your bucket.


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## beerboy (Feb 1, 2012)

Ok i siponed off the soution and added the HCL to the mud it dissolved right away ,i tested with stannous it showed neg for PM .
I reused the the siponed solution .
thanks for the reply's.


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