# Ag 9% Pd 8% Rh 8.3 etc help please



## Zanerosspalmer (Oct 26, 2011)

I have tried to recover some silver from X-ray fixer solution and ended up with this mixture that our refinery says is not viable to refine. Can anyone help as to how I could seperate this mixture out.

Ag 9.17%
Pd 8.03%
Rh 8.3%
Ir 2.48%
Ru 2.51%
Ni 9.62%
Fe 57.68%

I have 12 Kg's of this dry powder and would like to get the silver out as it cost me a lot to buy?

Thanks in advance for the help.


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## Claudie (Oct 26, 2011)

How did you try? What did you do to get to this where you are now?


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## patnor1011 (Oct 26, 2011)

You have nearly two times more of platinum group metals there which are say 50x more expensive and you want to go after silver?


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## goldsilverpro (Oct 26, 2011)

Zanerosspalmer said:


> I have tried to recover some silver from X-ray fixer solution and ended up with this mixture that our refinery says is not viable to refine. Can anyone help as to how I could seperate this mixture out.
> 
> Ag 9.17%
> Pd 8.03%
> ...



A company I did work for processed about 35,000,000 pounds of x-ray scrap during the time I was there and not once were any PGMs found. Their presence would have been quite noticeable in the processed silver. However, these metals are available for inclusion, with the silver, in custom made photographic emulsions for specialized applications.
http://heraeus-chemicalproducts.com/en/preciousmetalchemicals/photographicfilms/photographic_films.aspx

So, the presence of these metals is possible but the numbers of the PGMs sounds pretty large to me. By what assay method did you determine the quantities of the platinum group metals? At today's prices, you supposedly have $1,200 worth of silver and $82,500 worth of PGMs - a 70:1 ratio. Like someone else said, if these numbers are real, why are you even remotely concerned about the silver?

Maybe a better explanation of what type film this originally came from would help in trying to understand all of this. Did you buy all of these metals to start with and formulate your own emulsions? Is that what you're basing the numbers on? With all that iron, it sounds like you may have cemented the metals from the fixer with steel wool. The nickel is a mystery.

Due to the great difficulty of separating these metals yourself, I think you're dreaming. There may be only a handful of refiners in the country that would have the knowledge and the setup to do so and most of them would not be able to produce a pure product. Luckily, we have a forum moderator, Lou, that has these abilities and the necessary equipment. Maybe he'll contact you.


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## nickvc (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree 100% with GSP this is a nightmare of a refining job for the average refiner to attempt and would endorse the suggestion that Lou is probably the only person to be able to do this here on the forum.


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## Zanerosspalmer (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi Again all

I used a Nitron Scanner to get the figures quoted> Apparantly it works using x-rays?

I sent this stuff off to a commercial refiner who tried to melt it in a crucible.

We did 2 tests on seperate pieces and the second results were 
Ag 17.67
Rh 11.23
Ru 4.08
Ir 1.87
Mi 3.06
Fe 49.22

Got got this from fixer from x-ray Co. and dropped it will steelwool.


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## goldsilverpro (Oct 27, 2011)

Zanerosspalmer said:


> Hi Again all
> 
> I used a Nitron Scanner to get the figures quoted> Apparantly it works using x-rays?
> 
> ...


No offense, but I'm very skeptical about those giant numbers and I'm trying to understand all of this. When you say x-ray Co., do you mean a company that sells x-ray film (like Kodak), a company that refines x-rays, or a company that uses x-rays? Did this stuff just fall in your lap? You mentioned earlier that this cost you a lot of money, Did you mean just the silver or also for the platinum group metals?

The melting problems could be from the Fe and the Ni, as they both have high melting points.

Do you have any idea why this stuff has huge quantities of platinum group metals? Those Niton XRFs can give false results if not calibrated right. Did the refiner own the Niton?


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## goldsilverpro (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't know why your response to my last post got put on another thread. Here it is.



Zanerosspalmer said:


> I got it from a Non-Destructive testing company who do xray work and use this to work the film.
> 
> Judging by your reactions it seems likely that something is not right with thr eadings and maybe it can be explained as follows
> 
> ...


I appreciate your answering my questions and it does seem that we're zeroing in on the actual situation.

From what you say, the samples you tried to melt are very possibly contaminated with PGMs (platinum group metals) and nickel (probably) from the dirty crucible. Since the sample didn't melt, the contamination is likely just on the surfaces and the Niton could easily pick up readings from there. Therefore, the numbers you reported are likely worthless, as far as the assay of the entire 12kg is concerned.

The only source of the metals dissolved in the fixer would be from the x-ray film that was processed in it. I mentioned before that I had never seen any x-ray film that contained PGMs. Therefore, the chances are slim to none that you had any PGMs in that fixer.

You somehow have to test a fresh sample of the remaining 12kg of material that has never been placed in the crucible. I assume it's in powder or black sludge form and probably wet. If so, I would dry a small sample out (not in the crucible!) and then, when cool, mash it up a bit and place it in a small thin plastic baggie. Get the sample in one corner of the baggie and shoot it through the plastic with the Niton. I would wager that it will show only silver and iron, with no PGMs.

*Note:* The film (used for non-destructive testing - welds, etc.) this originally came from is called Industrial x-ray film. I have run about 1 million pounds of that type film and, here again, have never found any PGMs in it. Of all types of film, though, there is a slight chance of some PGMs being in it for some very special critical applications, such as x-raying welds in a nuclear plant or on the space shuttle. So, I may be wrong in my assumptions. The dried-sample-in-the-baggie test I suggested in the previous paragraph should tell the story. Let us know the results.


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## element47 (Oct 27, 2011)

[fascinating thread with great answers BUMP.]

Thank you, GSP!


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## nickvc (Oct 27, 2011)

I have had xrf readings from machines set for karat scrap buying show all sorts of metals in very odd % , I'm very sceptical as GSP is that you have anything but silver as a value, I could be wrong and for your sake I hope I am.


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## Zanerosspalmer (Oct 27, 2011)

I will get a new bagged reading for you all on Monday.

Thanks for the help.


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## Zanerosspalmer (Oct 31, 2011)

I did the Xray test again x2 on the same sample in a bag on both side of the bag with un-heated/ treated powder and got these results

Ag 17.42 17.81
Pd 7.76 9.39
Rh 5.83 6.93
Ru 2.33 2.64
Au 4.04 4.06
Ir 1.71 2.62
Zn 1.52 1.04
Cu 3.91 4.85
Ni 5.23 3.76
Fe 49.74 46.19

Now what do I do?


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## nickvc (Oct 31, 2011)

This is getting weirder and weirder, I would have taken bets on the material just showing iron and silver but that shows what I know.
What exactly is the source of this material it's a very odd mix?
Here on the forum I feel there won't be many members who can deal with this,as GSP suggested Lou is probably the best qualified if you want it refined.


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## Zanerosspalmer (Oct 31, 2011)

Just taken another reading with a handheld gun type xray devise that is used to ID steels. It gave me completely different results.

Ti 1.12%
V 1.78
Cr 2.55
FE 56.17
Co 0.55
Ni 7.99
Cu 7.18
W 3.46
Pb 17.55
Zr 0.71
Nb 0.4
Mo 0.52
Equals 99.98%

He says his gun does not read silver. I also took a teaspoonfull and disolved it in nitric acid (not all dissolved) and then added salt to try to get Silver cholride but not salts presipitated out. From that I guess that there is no silver. Can anyone agrre that there is no silver in this??

Thanks
Zane


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## goldsilverpro (Oct 31, 2011)

Although it sounds like there is no silver, something in there could have cemented it. If you didn't heat the nitric (50/50) and dissolve it until everything that would possibly dissolve has dissolved, I can see this happening. It this case, I would use a good excess of nitric.

You said the XRF gun wasn't programmed to show silver. Was it programmed to show the other PMs? It sounds like the unit used in the first tests was programmed to read only PMs and some common base metals, whereas the 2nd unit read base metals and the more exotic metals found in steels, but no PMs. In my limited experience with XRF, it seems that, no matter what it's programmed for, the total will tend to add up in the range of 85-100%. This can make for some erroneous readings, in my mind.


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Oct 31, 2011)

I fully agree with GSP and Nickvc,I have processed many tons of films and fixers and I have never got a gram of PGM.

XRF machines (if not well calibrated) are the biggest liars of the world.Forget all those analysis,first you have to separate silver(and base metals,like Fe and Ni) using nitric acid process,gold could be recovered with cold AR,next recover PGM (if any)with boiling AR,you can use PM solution detector to check gold and PGM.Try a sample of 100 gr.

Are you able to make a radioactive test to your mud?Iridium´s contents may come from Iridium-192(used as gamma ray source in Industrial radiography )that decays to Platinum-192.This would explain the abnormally high PGM content.

Zanerosspalmer,would you mind to tell us where do you live?

Regards.

Manuel


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## philddreamer (Oct 31, 2011)

Hola Juan Manuel!

He has South Africa as Country of Origin on his signature!

Cuidate mi hermano!

Phil


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## Palladium (Nov 1, 2011)

Are you testing this material in powder form or solid metal form?


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## Zanerosspalmer (Nov 3, 2011)

Hi Again

I took your advise and warmed the solution of nitric and grey powder and settled it over time and then added salt to try to get silver chloride but got no precipitate out.

From the start when I added the steel wool to the fixer solution it did not seem to be normal. I wonder if they did not have a silver trap on the system for developing the films. They later told me that there was not one. I guess they would say that or have to give me back my money. The wool did not disolve like it normally does and took days to work. I think it just rusted away.

I live in South Africa

regards
Zane


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## freechemist (Nov 4, 2011)

Hi Zane,

According to my experience you are basing your assays on simple instrumental methods to me more than doubtful, if not, to say it openly, b......t. From all the different readings you are posting, to me it is evident, that your assaying until now is not adequate and thus not functioning. As a consequence you have to look for different, much more reliable assay-methods. Judging all, I have read from you until now, the most trustful would be an old-fashioned fire-assay (cuppellation). The X-ray-readings (except the one from the "steel-type-gun") suggest, that your material contains not less than 30% of PM's in total, an amount to be determined easily and simply by cuppellation. And as a surplus, a PM-button resulting from cuppellation is something you can weigh, take in your hand, and not only a reading on the scale of a mysterious black box.

Good luck and regards

freechemist


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Nov 7, 2011)

Zanerosspalmer:

How about starting from the beginning?,look,take a piece of copper wire,scrape it a little bit and dip it in to your fix for 5 seconds,tell us what happens.

pH is very sensitive for steel wool process,can you tell us what pH is in your fix?


Kindest regards.

Manuel


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