# Finer flux for AR recovery?



## Militoy (Apr 6, 2011)

This is my first post, after having “lurked” for a while reading over mostly older info on the site. I’m interested in any first-hand experience anyone has had experimenting with the texture of fluxes used for melts of AR-recovered gold. I’m using a simple borax/silica mix, but have access to (free) Cab-O-Sil, and have considered using a finer grind of borax with Cab-O-Sil instead of silica sand; to see if I might get a cleaner melt. I realize Cab-O-Sil has been presented as kind of a villain as a contaminant in zinc powder. I use it regularly in my full-time work though, and wonder if it might improve my melt? Or – is there an even better flux I’m unaware of? Thanks for your great site!


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## Anonymous (Apr 6, 2011)

Militoy said:


> I’m interested in any first-hand experience anyone has had experimenting with the texture of fluxes used for melts of AR-recovered gold.


The texture does not matter, unless you are using lead oxide for agglomeration,in which case it needs to be kept as fine as possible.One of our moderators used to melt flux and pour it into bars,then break them into pieces and add the pieces to the melt,so there was little thermal expansion.
legends has some good fluxes,although they are expensive....
http://www.lmine.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LMS&Category_Code=assay_flux


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## Harold_V (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm at a loss to understand why you need flux at all. I melted thousands of ounces of gold refined with AR and used nothing more than a thin borax coating on my melting dish. Properly refined, gold doesn't have to be fluxed aside from "lubricating" the melting vessel to insure it allows the gold to flow freely (and totally) when poured. 

Harold


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## Militoy (Apr 6, 2011)

Thanks to both of you for your replies! Harold - maybe your use of the phrase "properly refined" doesn't quite describe my level of skill at this point. I do get a better melt when I stir flux into my little batches. Maybe after I've also processed millions of dollars worth of gold (as if!), I might leave flux out of the equation. Out of curiosity, when you lubricate the crucible - do you pre-heat the borax flux to stick it to the bowl - or just dust the bowl and pour in the gold fines?


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## Harold_V (Apr 7, 2011)

Militoy said:


> Thanks to both of you for your replies! Harold - maybe your use of the phrase "properly refined" doesn't quite describe my level of skill at this point. I do get a better melt when I stir flux into my little batches. Maybe after I've also processed millions of dollars worth of gold (as if!), I might leave flux out of the equation. Out of curiosity, when you lubricate the crucible - do you pre-heat the borax flux to stick it to the bowl - or just dust the bowl and pour in the gold fines?


Melting dishes are properly prepared by slowly heating, to evaporate contained moisture (which eliminates cracking), then heated to redness. When red, borax is sprinkled on the surface and heat applied once again, melting the borax until it forms a clear coating. It need not be thick, and shouldn't be---otherwise it pours off with the gold. 

While I appreciate your comments about the quality of your gold, it has precious little to do with the volume of gold you will refine---and everything to do with mastering the process of producing pure gold---assuming that's your goal. It isn't for everyone. 

I strongly advise you do NOT mix gold and flux before melting. It has a way of keeping in suspension, tiny prills---which may or may not agglomerate in the hoped for mass. 

If you feel you must flux, start by pouring your gold powder to a melting dish that is cold (but already seasoned). With the gold powder in the dish, introduce the flame from your heat source such that you heat the surface gradually, to avoid blowing out fine particles. As the surface begins to melt, sprinkle small amounts of borax on the pile and continue heating. A small amount of borax will do a serious amount of fluxing. When your gold has been fully melted, if it isn't pure, while it's molten you'll notice a constant movement of oxides, emanating from the center of the molten mass and moving to the edge of the button, where it is absorbed by the flux. Key to success is to melt and not discover the oxide film. 

Note that a full coating of borax hides the oxides, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Note, also, that borax will not eliminate base metals unless they have been oxidized. The notion that you can clean up your gold by melting with borax alone isn't sound. If it was, I wouldn't have had need to double refine all of my gold. 

Harold


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## Militoy (Apr 7, 2011)

Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I'll try following your advice for my next melt. When you double-refine, do you go all the way through a melt - or do you repeat the AR / precipitate cycle on your precipitates?


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## Anonymous (Apr 7, 2011)

If you do find yourself with too much flux and very dirty gold,you can sprinkle a little sodium nitrate into your melt,and that will oxidize your base metals under the flux.
But the BEST course of action is to always make sure your powder is pure before you melt.


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## Harold_V (Apr 7, 2011)

Militoy said:


> Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I'll try following your advice for my next melt. When you double-refine, do you go all the way through a melt - or do you repeat the AR / precipitate cycle on your precipitates?


My policy was to re-refine the well washed precipitates, without melting first. However, there were certain lots of recovered gold that contained an unidentified substance that was difficult to eliminate. It manifested itself as a brown solution, scarcely soluble in HCl, but slowly dissolved in water. 

I learned that melting this material was in my best interest, so that's what I'd use for the added gold that was my preferred method of processing. The added gold was used to consume traces of unused nitric acid, which, for my operation, was a requirement. I processed filings from the jeweler's bench directly, without melting. Because they generally contained abrasive bits, it was not always clear when everything of value had been dissolved. A slight excess of AR insured that was not the case. 

Melting of the recovered gold can have benefits---but it does retard the rapid dissolution of the gold in re-refining. The more surface area presented to the acid, the quicker is the response.

Harold


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## cory123 (May 26, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> I'm at a loss to understand why you need flux at all. I melted thousands of ounces of gold refined with AR and used nothing more than a thin borax coating on my melting dish. Properly refined, gold doesn't have to be fluxed aside from "lubricating" the melting vessel to insure it allows the gold to flow freely (and totally) when poured.
> 
> Harold


HAROLD, you bear the answer to all my questions, you oughtta write a book, this site would be nothing without you, also thx to all the others, ive been patiently reading on how to extract gold from rock, and yous have helped lots.


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## Anonymous (May 26, 2011)

He did write a book.Most of the members on the forum have read it already,although some do not heed his books advice.
It's a short book and I have a copy of it laying around here somewhere..........
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Oh here it is....."Read Hoke"by Harold Vordos!
LMAO!
Seriously GoldSilverPro does have an excellent book out.It works well for the newbie and the season recoverer/refiner.You can purchase a copy from steves website http://goldrecovery.us/pricing.asp .


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## cory123 (May 30, 2011)

lol thx mic, im lmao too right now...lmao, how ironic, i didnt know harold wrote that boook, i've heard of it, but it seemed long so i just try netting info on the net, and its been pretty easy through this site. and thx again to steve harold lou and the others/.... also for anyone looking for an easy to understand walkthrough try the goldnscrap.com site,QUESTION!!!! im attempting my first melt with quartzite gold, im comfortable with everything but i am not sure about inquarting, ive had the surface tested at both 10 and 14 k, and there doesnt seem to be any base metals on the quartz(besides silver with the gold??), but i have other samples that are very dense and less shiny, with colours that look like they represent gold, copper,silver nickel and pd,pt . im thinking of making this an experiment and i will try 2 different methods(unless i can get right answer), one with nitric acid pre dissolve before A R, and the other to go straight through A R(with both types of rocks,).... will i have to inquart any silver into the nitric melt for the quartz rocks containing just the 10-14 k gold, what about the rocks containing many base metals? or could i just use nitric alone before A R?.., and what if i just put the quartz gold, or the many base metal rocks right through the AR, will the gold be contained because of all the silver chloride or any other complictions?, all the gold karat rating falls within 8-14 . i have tried to read lots about inquarting gold, but it is still blurry to me, please any advice would be awesome( also i plan to bash these rocks and clean them as much as i can before dissolving)


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## jimdoc (May 30, 2011)

cory123 said:


> lol thx mic, im lmao too right now...lmao, how ironic, i didnt know harold wrote that boook, i've heard of it, but it seemed long so i just try netting info on the net, and its been pretty easy through this site. and thx again to steve harold lou and the others/.... also for anyone looking for an easy to understand walkthrough try the goldnscrap.com site,QUESTION!!!! im attempting my first melt with quartzite gold, im comfortable with everything but i am not sure about inquarting, ive had the surface tested at both 10 and 14 k, and there doesnt seem to be any base metals on the quartz(besides silver with the gold??), but i have other samples that are very dense and less shiny, with colours that look like they represent gold, copper,silver nickel and pd,pt ( rocks collected from sudbury basin underground). im thinking of making this an experiment and i will try 2 different methods(unless i can get right answer), one with nitric acid pre dissolve before A R, and the other to go straight through A R(with both types of rocks,).... will i have to inquart any silver into the nitric melt for the quartz rocks containing just the 10-14 k gold, what about the rocks containing many base metals? or could i just use nitric alone before A R?.., and what if i just put the quartz gold, or the many base metal rocks right through the AR, will the gold be contained because of all the silver chloride or any other complictions?, all the gold karat rating falls within 8-14 . i have tried to read lots about inquarting gold, but it is still blurry to me, please any advice would be awesome



I think trying to use inquartation isn't the proper way to deal with ore.
Others will give you advice, maybe your question should be moved to the 
prospecting section.
Jim


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## Militoy (May 30, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Militoy said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I'll try following your advice for my next melt. When you double-refine, do you go all the way through a melt - or do you repeat the AR / precipitate cycle on your precipitates?
> ...



I've been mulling over this bit of generously-shared knowledge for a few weeks now - but I don't believe my current level of experience will necessarily result in me making the correct choice between melting or re-dissolving. For the time being - I'll follow your policy to re-refine - and maybe I'll err on the side of chemistry. I'll melt when I believe my gold mud and foils are clean.


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## Militoy (May 30, 2011)

cory123 said:


> lol thx mic, im lmao too right now...lmao, how ironic, i didnt know harold wrote that boook, i've heard of it, but it seemed long so i just try netting info on the net, and its been pretty easy through this site. and thx again to steve harold lou and the others/.... also for anyone looking for an easy to understand walkthrough try the goldnscrap.com site,QUESTION!!!! im attempting my first melt with quartzite gold, im comfortable with everything but i am not sure about inquarting, ive had the surface tested at both 10 and 14 k, and there doesnt seem to be any base metals on the quartz(besides silver with the gold??), but i have other samples that are very dense and less shiny, with colours that look like they represent gold, copper,silver nickel and pd,pt ( rocks collected from sudbury basin underground). im thinking of making this an experiment and i will try 2 different methods(unless i can get right answer), one with nitric acid pre dissolve before A R, and the other to go straight through A R(with both types of rocks,).... will i have to inquart any silver into the nitric melt for the quartz rocks containing just the 10-14 k gold, what about the rocks containing many base metals? or could i just use nitric alone before A R?.., and what if i just put the quartz gold, or the many base metal rocks right through the AR, will the gold be contained because of all the silver chloride or any other complictions?, all the gold karat rating falls within 8-14 . i have tried to read lots about inquarting gold, but it is still blurry to me, please any advice would be awesome



Your comment on the quartzite caught my eye - as I am currently playing around with some "hot rocks" I collected while nugget shooting in the Yosemite area of California. I picked up a pile of river rocks I call "Golden Spuds"; because they set off my detector exactly the same way a gold nugget does - but they look surprisingly like potatoes. When sliced open with a diamond saw, they appear to be quartzite with silver and gold colored metallic specs distributed throughout the matrix. I've sliced one into 1/4 inch slabs - and am planning to roast the pieces and pulverize them for testing. I'll report back on the results, unless they are too boring.


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## cory123 (May 30, 2011)

heres wht im workin with





,



, 

here is some hi grade ore



,

here is the other type of rocks that i have, a miner got me some from hard rock deposits, you cant see the exact colour because of reflections but it has a bronze tinge, to a silver one in some places, looks more yellow than it is....


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## element47 (May 30, 2011)

Some of that gold-bearing quartz (or maybe I should say quartz-bearing gold) looks positively yummy. People pay well above spot gold for nice rocks like those, in my experience.


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## Harold_V (May 31, 2011)

element47 said:


> Some of that gold-bearing quartz (or maybe I should say quartz-bearing gold) looks positively yummy. People pay well above spot gold for nice rocks like those, in my experience.


I commented on this material in a different thread. I'm of the opinion it is not gold. 

Harold


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## Militoy (May 31, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> ...I commented on this material in a different thread. I'm of the opinion it is not gold.
> 
> Harold



I kind of had the same thought - the fractures do look a little pyrite-ish for most raw gold in quartz matrix. I recollect it was stated in the other post that the material had been tested positive for gold in some way - but the results didn't sound like the kind of data you would get from a simple assay. Most gold ore isn't quite so flashy. If it is real - it came out of a heck of a glory-hole!


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## Harold_V (Jun 1, 2011)

Militoy said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > ...I commented on this material in a different thread. I'm of the opinion it is not gold.
> ...


It's clear why such material has the title of "fools gold". To those with little experience, it certainly does remind one of gold, but if you find both in the same specimen (I have such specimens), it's a no brainer. The color isn't gold--it's a brassy yellow, pale by comparison, to that of gold. 

What never ceases to amaze me is that it's dead easy to determine if one has gold, or not. The sulfides that are often confused with gold are hard and brittle---they shatter when impacted. Gold, by sharp contrast, is soft an malleable. Were it not, nuggets wouldn't exist in the numbers that have been found, nor would fine placer gold be thin and broad, like a hotcake. Very fine gold, found when panning, is rarely very thick (nuggets excepted), often _very_ thin. They have been pounded flat by their surroundings. Were they brittle, they would have been reduced to fine powder instead. 

Readers most likely have heard the term gold fever. It blinds almost everyone at first---you must be firm and skeptical----otherwise everything looks like gold. That may sound harsh, but no one profits from chasing valueless materials. 

Harold


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## Militoy (Jun 1, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> ...Readers most likely have heard the term gold fever. It blinds almost everyone at first---you must be firm and skeptical----otherwise everything looks like gold. That may sound harsh, but no one profits from chasing valueless materials.
> 
> Harold



At the risk of pushing this thread onto another rabbit trail – your comment on “gold fever” reminds me of some trouble I inadvertently caused spreading that disease about ten years ago. One of our electronic technicians at work found out I was an occasional weekend prospector, and asked to go along on one of our trips. Unfortunately, we found some pretty good colors his first time out. That weekend, the gold gods smiled on us, and it seemed like we got lucky in almost every hole we dug. He got the idea into his head that prospecting was his easy path to riches – and he went nuts. He bought every jimcrack contraption he could find that was advertised in the prospecting magazines. He spent every waking hour away from work digging in the hills for the glittery stuff. After a few weeks he actually quit his job to go prospecting full-time. Luckily – his wife also worked at our company, so at least they kept some income to pay the bills. After around 6 months of his craziness, I received a phone call from him asking for help unsticking his 2WD pickup truck from a dirt “road” in Holcomb Valley. He had buried his truck way back on a road that the local tow companies wouldn’t even consider entering. They advised him to wait until after the spring thaw! I extracted him using a combination of long steel cables, snow chains, Hi-Lift jacks, tow straps and luck. After that incident – his fever cooled. He sold most of his equipment, and offered me a large container of sodium cyanide – which I declined. Don’t know where he got it; but I advised him to deliver it to the county hazmat disposal facility, where they have free drop-off days. I understand he is working a “regular job” these days. Gold fever can sometimes interfere with the brain synapses, and make even a bright guy go dim-witted.


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## Harold_V (Jun 2, 2011)

Your story about hitting it big when prospecting reminds me of the time I took my wife with me (before we were married) when I went hunting mushrooms. I had heard from a friend of the nice fairy rings that often form, but had never witnessed one. Within minutes of starting the hunt, we found just such a ring. Filled a large bag with mushrooms in minutes. From her perspective, you go out where they grow, spend a few minutes filling your bag and go home. Doesn't everyone do that? 

Timing, there (Salt Lake City, Utah), was everything. I can't tell you the number of times I made the drive, only to be skunked. And so it was, every damned time we went afterwards. She now understands that what she witnessed was the anomaly, not the norm. 

I know of no one that had gold fever worse than I did when I got started. Still, because I started right out learning to test, and could buy scrap easily, I was very controlled. I do not recall even one instance where I made a purchase that wasn't lucrative. Do remember, when I started refining gold, it was illegal to do so unless one possessed a federal license. There were no buyers of scrap, so items such as eye glass frames, which were in abundance, were very inexpensive. There were times when I'd buy a nice quantity of 1/10-12KGF frames for 10¢ each. 

Harold


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## Militoy (Jun 2, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Your story about hitting it big when prospecting reminds me of the time I took my wife with me (before we were married) when I went hunting mushrooms. I had heard from a friend of the nice fairy rings that often form, but had never witnessed one. Within minutes of starting the hunt, we found just such a ring. Filled a large bag with mushrooms in minutes. From her perspective, you go out where they grow, spend a few minutes filling your bag and go home. Doesn't everyone do that?
> 
> Timing, there (Salt Lake City, Utah), was everything. I can't tell you the number of times I made the drive, only to be skunked. And so it was, every damned time we went afterwards. She now understands that what she witnessed was the anomaly, not the norm.
> 
> ...



I used to pick mushrooms when I was in the Army in Germany towards the end of the VN war. I would only dare to pick one specific variety that my landlord had taught me to identify. I never saw a "fairy ring" the time I was there - and I wouldn't risk picking them here in California. I'd probably wind up cooking up a batch of "death angels"!

I have been a part-time dealer in vintage jewelry in the past - and have noticed quite a lot of gold-filled watches and eye glass frames for very reasonable prices (probably never 10 cents). Of course - back then I wasn't really interested in anything I couldn't turn an immediate profit on; so I overlooked most of those items. Funny thinking back - since I was already collecting gold e-scrap back then for possible future recovery. Now days, I have a hard time finding good deals even on plated frames.


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