# Poll and contest...Just how good are you?



## Lou (Sep 12, 2014)

There was a fun discussion on ultra high purity metals on the board recently and it got me to thinking...

Wouldn't it be super cool to know just how good a job you're doing at refining gold, silver, platinum, or palladium or what others here are capable of doing? I was visiting a customer a few weeks' back producing really high grade gold (to my eyes), but the refiner they were selling to was saying it was only 99.7-99.8. The question is, to what level can eyes ''ballpark'' how good the gold or silver is on the basis of looks? In my own studies, surprisingly well below 4N!

Here's what I was thinking:

Participating members will need to supply a ~100 mg (that's 1/10th of a gram) sample of precious metal to a third party assay lab, the _same_ third party lab. I know one that is local to me that handles our certs and is objective, keeps their scales calibrated, trace metal grade acids, follows relevant ISO procedures, and is reasonable in cost. 

It's best (both for purity, and for ease of dissolution) to send powdered metal, sponges or silver crystal. Participating members should post pictures of their metal (before and after melting) in the Gallery Section so other members can guess and we can associate different contaminants with different looking sponge/ingots! Any member can guess on the purity of the metal posted. If there's enough interest, I will specify the sampling techniques, how to package, who to send to, costs, further details etc.


Well, we have to reward people doing good work. The person who makes the best gold or silver (one of each) will get 150% of the cost of the assay refunded by me. If there's a tie to statistical relevance and multiple winners, I will split that award amount amongst the winners evenly, dispersed in US dollars. With ICP-MS, we can see to 5N5 with a good confidence interval. 

To keep costs down, I'd like to have 10 participants _at a minimum_ (ICP-MS instruments aren't cheap to run!) send in all of their refining lot samples to the lab by the end of say, October. Tape up your little sample with your initials and date on it. 10 or so days later, each person is emailed a unique certificate of analyses and that is posted up by the end of October. All the samples will be run with the same acids, same day on the same instrument, at roughly the same time to minimize variation and be more fair.

IF there's enough interest, I'll formalize all the details and post instructions.

I think this can be a good learning experience for members interested in seeing just how well they're doing and educational in that we see what good gold looks like and who's got the technique down. 

The option to post your certificate should be up to whomever, and they can withdraw any time.


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## RikkiRicardo (Sep 12, 2014)

Lou
I like this.
This is a good learning process for everyone that is involved 

RikkiRicardo


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 12, 2014)

I'll contribute to this for Gold.


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## justinhcase (Sep 12, 2014)

That sounds fun,I already know my purity's but I do love to interact.
I had thought about how to run a Refining competition and was drawn towards a contest much like a T.V. cook off Show.
Starting off at the regional or national level depending on how meany refiners where available. 
Give each participant identical lab's chemicals and Material to process in a set time.
People could then be judged by % recovered , purity and use of consumables..I always like to add point's for stile but that is just me  
A total day dream of course,yours is much more practical but we have no way of knowing where a sample has originated beyond the gentlemanly agreement that exists between most of us.
I would hate to see such a distinguished group subjected to results that where less than stringent and effected by any one with a lower out look on life.
J


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 12, 2014)

Mine will come from electronic scrap so I'm already handicapped.


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## Anonymous (Sep 12, 2014)

It would probably be cheaper for all concerned to send all the samples over to the UK as one batch and get them all assayed. Assay costs in the US are terribly expensive.


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## Lou (Sep 12, 2014)

Good idea Spaceships, thank you for volunteering to coordinate that, mate!

Please do find out what the assay lab costs for purity-by difference on Au at the 99-99,999+ range. I imagine a fire assay is cheap over there, ICP-MS, probably no cheaper than here.


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## Anonymous (Sep 12, 2014)

Oh heavens I let myself in for that one didn't I? 8)


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## cnbarr (Sep 12, 2014)

Lou, what a fantastic idea, I'm on board with some Au & Ag! It would be interesting to see all the statistical data compared by sample.


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## Lou (Sep 14, 2014)

Just busting your chops on the coordination part of it, but I would appreciate it if you could find out from your assayer.

It would also be a good idea for contest participants to record (like the good scientists I know they are) simple parameters such as the quality of reagents; i.e. tech grade Home Depot chems, home made nitric, analytical reagents, reducing agent, how many times it was refined, washing procedure, if used.

Perhaps as a separate constraint, we can have a gentlemen's agreement that it can be refined only twice but one may use any appropriate precipitant (i.e. oxalic if you have lots of PGMs but no copper; sulfites/SO2).

I think an eventual goal of this would be a grass roots "this is how you have to refine gold or silver to get 99,95+ metal". There seems to be a bunch of people on here producing gold that is really good, but the refiner they sell to says otherwise, often on the basis of XRF. 

I, and other moderators can post procedure this, procedure that but really, seeing is believing and more importantly, doing for many is learning. Refining gold is not difficult, but there are nuances to it, and attention-to-detail/patience/fastidiousness are some of the big ones. What this, hopefully, will encourage is for members to say, "this is what I did, and look what I got" in a cooperative, sharing fashion with other members.

I'll get back to you all tomorrow or Tuesday with the test cost and if I get a few more votes in after we all decide we can afford to pay to play, I'll issue a revised contest with rules, guidelines, sampling methodology, deadlines, other requirements, address and contact info, and the prize.

The goal of this is to be fun more than competition and for everyone to get honest, independent feedback on their refining work. Also, if you keep good notes and follow your procedure, you have some leverage when you sell to the refiner! Shall we say, refining "street credibility" 

Lou


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## MGH (Sep 14, 2014)

I would like to participate, but I can't commit as easily as some others. I may or may not have some more material to process in the short term. Also, depending on what it turns out to be, the initial cost of the assay may be a factor (guess I'm not too confident in a purity victory  ). But I sure would like to give it a go if it turns out to be practicable.

Matt H.


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## jason_recliner (Sep 14, 2014)

I really love the idea of this. But I'm not sure I'm up to participating within the timeframe proposed. Also, sending it from Australia would take a sizable chunk out of remaining available working time. I only finished my first post-incineration wash _yesterday_ and I'm a long way from any melting.

My powder volumes (read: start values) are so tiny that supplying 100mg of brown is still like asking for my leg [Edit: yes, I do know it's ~ $4 worth. I've spend many hours and lots of dollars to get there 8) ], though it would be great to know how close my purity comes to the professionals'.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 14, 2014)

Lou,

I have a suggestion. Since most of the members do gold how about if we make this test only on gold for this go round. And since you said the lab is just a little ways from you the members send their samples to you. Give them till the middle or the end of November so this will allow the ones from over seas to be involved in this. You can take the samples in at one time. Maybe you can even talk to the company and explain what you are doing and see if they will give a special deal on this one contest.


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## Lou (Sep 15, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Lou,
> 
> I have a suggestion. Since most of the members do gold how about if we make this test only on gold for this go round. And since you said the lab is just a little ways from you the members send their samples to you. Give them till the middle or the end of November so this will allow the ones from over seas to be involved in this. You can take the samples in at one time. Maybe you can even talk to the company and explain what you are doing and see if they will give a special deal on this one contest.



We can keep it to gold and do a separate silver contest some other time. 

I have done such and hope to hear back in the next couple days. I personally prefer to have them sent to the lab directly, as everything that comes here has to have an account associated with it. I might go look at the samples down the road, but the idea is to run them all at once so standards need be made only once, instrument calibrated that day, etc. 

Time frame is not important to me--just that everyone agrees on the dates. This is just me thinking out loud and trying to come up with a neat way for interested parties to get feedback on their material and better hone their processes.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 15, 2014)

Lou said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Lou,
> ...



That all sounds good Lou.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 15, 2014)

Ok members Lou is being nice enough to set this up for the forum. He is going out of his way with his personal contact to have your material tested and to fund the winning prize. He has not set the date in stone to allow anyone from any part of the globe to join in this contest. So far there are 4-5 members interested in this, 2 of them confirmed yes (cnbarr generally beats the pants off of me). Does this really make the forum look like a productive place to have such a small participation in a contest like this?

Being involved in a contest like this let's you know what contaminants you have in your material thus letting you know what steps you need to take to fix the problem.

How are other members of the forum supposed to take your advise seriously on how to process if you don't prove what you can produce. Those that can do,do. Those that can't teach.

The button below tested on XRF at .9997 and twice refined. The first refined powder was only washed in water and ammonia.




It dosen't matter if you get beat. What does matter is what you learn from the process so you will be able to teach others correctly.


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## inspector071 (Sep 15, 2014)

As discussed in the other thread, I'm up for a gentleman's contest. Any date works for me. I've already got a small amount of my twice refined and well washed gold powder set aside. How would you prefer us package and ship 100 mg of gold powder? 

I'm quite looking forward to this because I'd like to compare the results from some of the equipment at my university to a lab that specializes in metal analysis.


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 15, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Ok members Lou is being nice enough to set this up for the forum. He is going out of his way with his personal contact to have your material tested and to fund the winning prize. He has not set the date in stone to allow anyone from any part of the globe to join in this contest. So far there are 4-5 members interested in this, 2 of them confirmed yes (cnbarr generally beats the pants off of me). Does this really make the forum look like a productive place to have such a small participation in a contest like this?
> 
> Being involved in a contest like this let's you know what contaminants you have in your material thus letting you know what steps you need to take to fix the problem.
> 
> ...


Why would you post something like that? 

I _believe_ your intent is to encourage participation, but a statement like that can only serve to divide members of this forum into two camps - those who participate in this contest, and those who don't. The implication is that if a member does not participate, other members cannot take their advice seriously, and that they apparently cannot even refine, let alone try to help others.

No one yet knows the details of this contest or what the cost may be. Some may not be able to afford it. Does that mean they shouldn't help others? Some have had to take a break from refining for personal reasons. Some are no longer actively involved in refining. Should we ignore their posts?

Sorry if I'm off base here. Maybe it's because I'm having a bad back day. It just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of something that's supposed to be helpful, educational, and fun.

Dave


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## nickvc (Sep 15, 2014)

Dave has a point... My interest is usually in recovery there's no profit for me in producing fine metals here in the UK, it costs time, chemicals and with no extra return. 
Can I produce 9995+ who cares not my buyers.
The situation here pays not to be to bothered as assays are cheap and quick and there's no profit in making ultra pure metals.
If this is a hobby then fine but as a business it's the actual profit that counts not the quality of the metals ,unless it pays!


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## Lou (Sep 16, 2014)

It pays more for Pd/Pt/Rh than Au/Ag in the US. Now that the jewelry manufacturing market has largely fallen apart here domestically, with only big houses like Stuller, the real value addition is in fabricated goods (wire, plate, sheet) for an industrial client.


Lou


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## nickvc (Sep 16, 2014)

The biggest money maker when I refined was in fabricated goods and not refining, I refined to get the metals to make the products so I can follow that. If you have clients for PGMs and knowing how well you refine those then it makes sense to do so and even more if they want fabricated products.
In the US assays are expensive so getting pure metals pays to avoid the grey area and know exactly what returns your getting.


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## Harold_V (Sep 16, 2014)

nickvc said:


> The biggest money maker when I refined was in fabricated goods and not refining, I refined to get the metals to make the products so I can follow that. If you have clients for PGMs and knowing how well you refine those then it makes sense to do so and even more if they want fabricated products.
> In the US assays are expensive so getting pure metals pays to avoid the grey area and know exactly what returns your getting.


In addition to Nick's words of wisdom, consider that traces of some elements destroy gold's ductility. Lead is an example. Shoot for high quality if your gold is to be used by others, and you should limit any problems. 

My objective when I refined was to turn out the highest possible quality. I did that as a matter of personal pride. I wanted to be known as one who was capable of proper performance, as nothing speaks louder about one's ability than to present reliable evidence. It's not a bad objective for anyone, even those who sell to refiners. After all, one gets better at pretty much anything by practice. Employ poor practices in refining and you'll struggle when called upon to do better. 

Harold


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