# something very interesting



## arthur kierski (Jun 8, 2008)

reading around ,stayed in my mind fusion cats substrates with na2o2.
i do not have na2o2 and it is dificult to buy it here.
i took 110grams of substrate which i already leached(i know that i do not extract all pgm-specially rh) and mixed with strong lye solution in a stainless steel vessel and added to the mud h2o2 ---it fizzled a lot and when stopped i put the vessel in my furnace for 2hours at 400C--------
after the 2 hours i leached the substrate with hcl-clorox , added finally a small quantity of h202(10cc) and precipitated after no more reactions the leach with iron powder-----result :0,33grams of pgm?? +perhaps pb in this 0,33----------------------------------------------------------------------
took this 0,33grams and added hcl-clorox--- for half -hour with some heat to kill excees cl2(expell)----filtered and in the filtrate added hidrazine and a small quantity of black powder precipitated(which i deduce is pt+littlequantity of pd)--- in the filter paper (ashless) remainded 0,20grams of RH+pb ---(grey powder-tipically rh)
monday i will do a kilo of this used substrate----by the way the 110grams of the substrate became 65grams(diminished 40%)
was this not interresting?i wanted to reduce the substrate and came out with RH-that i did not extract with my normal leaching of cats
i am deducing it is rh by many years of making experiments
all coments on this message is welcome---monday or tuesday i will give the results of the 1 kilo that i will do the same way as described above


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## Irons (Jun 8, 2008)

Sodium percarbonate, also known here as OxyClean, works much the same way. 

I suspect that some of the PGMs were exposed by the alkali fuision when the surface of the cats was etched.

Good observation.

people expect full value for their converters and it's hard to make a profit unless you get everything.

Everything but the squeal as they say at the abbatoir.


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## arthur kierski (Jun 8, 2008)

iron,thanks once more---your experience and common sense is helping me very much in solving some chemical problems--------------------------------
--do you have the formulae of this sodium per carbonate?
if not i am going to a supermarket and look for similars of oxyclean(which company manufacture it?) and read the labels to see the composition
i make many experiments and when one of them comes right ,i pursue it because i might get the solution of the problem that incomodates me(in this case is extracting ALL the pgm from cats--specially rh($$$$$$)
i have 5000kilos of cat substrates that i extracted pgm and i am sure that most of the rh is still there----thanks god i did not trew it away-----------------Yours,arthur kierski


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## lazersteve (Jun 8, 2008)

Arthur,

Here's a photo of my bucket of oxyclean:

[img:344:441]http://www.goldrecovery.us/images/oxyclean1.jpg[/img]

I've used it to attack substrates and I had mixed results. The oxyclean product has some blue crystals of detergents added into it that produced some odd soap like vapors. Luckily these crystals make up a very small percentage of the oxyclean powder. The process does require heating for some duration so it does not lend itself to a torch setup like I use. I need to acquire or build a good furnace or oven for my ongoing fusion experiments.

I did have success in dissolving a small amount of crushed honeycomb material using oxyclean.

Lou sent me a recipe for sodium peroxide :



Lou said:


> I have made it by using a saturated solution of NaOH in ethanol to which concentrated (30%) hydrogen peroxide is added. Na2O2 will precipitate out, and this can be boiled again in azeotropic EtOH to clean it up and remove some water.



I haven't tried his recipe but I do have everything on hand to make it. When I do I'll let you know.

Steve


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## arthur kierski (Jun 8, 2008)

thanks lazer steve for the acompaigment---i will buy tomorow sodium percarbonate and do the thing with 1 kilo of spent substrate and will pass the result to all---if i do not find the the percarbonate, i will produce na2o2 as lou pass to you----then i will pass all that hapenned---thanks again


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## Irons (Jun 8, 2008)

arthur kierski said:


> iron,thanks once more---your experience and common sense is helping me very much in solving some chemical problems--------------------------------
> --do you have the formulae of this sodium per carbonate?
> if not i am going to a supermarket and look for similars of oxyclean(which company manufacture it?) and read the labels to see the composition
> i make many experiments and when one of them comes right ,i pursue it because i might get the solution of the problem that incomodates me(in this case is extracting ALL the pgm from cats--specially rh($$$$$$)
> i have 5000kilos of cat substrates that i extracted pgm and i am sure that most of the rh is still there----thanks god i did not trew it away-----------------Yours,arthur kierski



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate

Sodium percarbonate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IUPAC name sodium carbonate —hydrogen peroxide (2/3)
Other names PCS, solid hydrogen peroxide, Sodium carbonate hydrogen peroxide, sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate
Identifiers
CAS number [15630-89-4]
PubChem 159762
EINECS number 239-707-6
Properties
Molecular formula 2Na2CO3·3(H2O2)
Molar mass 314.02 g/mol
Solubility in water 150 g/l
Hazards
R-phrases R22,R41,R8
S-phrases S17,S26,S39
Except where noted otherwise, data are given for
materials in their standard state
(at 25 °C, 100 kPa)
Infobox disclaimer and references

Sodium percarbonate is a white crystalline water-soluble chemical compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide.[1]

It is an oxidizing agent and ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products.[1] Despite the name, it is, in fact, a carbonate perhydrate.[1] Dissolved in water, it releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate)[1]:

2Na2CO3·3H2O2 → 2 Na2CO3 + 3 H2O2

Sodium percarbonate is the active ingredient in many powdered oxygen bleach products.[2] The Per from perborate or percarbonate has given the name for several laundry detergent products like Persil.


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## arthur kierski (Jun 8, 2008)

thanks iron ---tomorow i shall find it


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## Irons (Jun 8, 2008)

The advantage to using Sodium percarbonate is that you get the H2O2 without adding any water to the mix, thus diluting your Sodium Hydroxide.


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## arthur kierski (Jun 9, 2008)

iron, i did not find here in brazil sodium percarbonate---the chemical stores says they never heard of it.
steve , i tried making na2o2 saturating etalcohol(etanol) with naoh and them added to the saturated solution h2o2(30%) -it gave a white powder(na2o2) in foam who then vanished from the solution----------------------------i added etanol to naoh powder---should i make with water a saturated naoh solution and them add the alcoohol and them h2o2?? or naoh powder +etanol as i did?
na2o2 cost here 600dollars a kilo---


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## jimdoc (Jun 9, 2008)

Here is a link to an Ebay auction for sodium percarbonate;
and you shouldn't have to deal with the soap in oxyclean.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SODIUM-PERCARBONATE-3-Lb-Lab-Chemical-2Na2CO3-3H2O2_W0QQitemZ190227216868QQihZ009QQcategoryZ104233QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem auction for


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## lazersteve (Jun 9, 2008)

Arthur,

Sodium hydroxide should be added to the ethanol without any water. Sodium hydroxide is soluble in ethanol alone. Be sure it all dissolves before adding the hydrogen peroxide. The water in the hydrogen peroxide likely reacted with your sodium peroxide.

Sodium peroxide reacts with water. Sodium peroxide appears as yellow hygroscopic (absorbs water from the air) powder. 

Lou can give you more specifics.

He also mentioned distilling the ethanol and water off as an azeotrope with a boiling point of 78.1 °C. Sodium peroxide has a melting point of 675C.

Steve


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## arthur kierski (Jun 9, 2008)

thanks jimdoc, the problem is that it cannot be shipped abroad


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## arthur kierski (Jun 9, 2008)

thanks steve--let see if now works


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## Platdigger (Jun 9, 2008)

Jimdoc, did you notice thay advertise 3lb, then you read further and they state you are bidding on one pound.........sneaky.
Randy


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## Scott2357 (Jun 9, 2008)

Plat,

I've noticed that several times with CPUs. Title will say something like 30 CPUs but body of text will say less. :x


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## arthur kierski (Jun 11, 2008)

i did not find sodium percarbonate, so using is formula:i made a fake sodium percarbonate and made a mud with this and the substrate and them a 2hour fusion in a furnace----will today do the extraction with ar----then i will pass the results 
arthur


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## Froggy (Jun 23, 2008)

Arthur ,, I see you are still going strong, Billy Mays will love you :lol: ..Keep up the great work.... anticipating your results,, Frog


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## OMG (Jun 23, 2008)

LOL. Billy Mays.
or should I say,
BILLY MAYS


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