# Landfill Score



## stoneware (Sep 26, 2022)

Couple of cylinders the small one is full. The Presto-O-Lite valve appears to be for refrigeration, could this be sulfur dioxide.


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## Lino1406 (Sep 27, 2022)

If the original color is yellow, in many countries it may refer to propane, butane, acetylene etc. Others use yellow for corrosive - poisonous gas, in this case it may be SO2, Cl2, HCl..


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## Agostino (Sep 27, 2022)

As far as I am aware, SO2 cylinders come with stainless steel valves.


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## goldshark (Sep 27, 2022)

Left or right hand threads?


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## goldshark (Sep 27, 2022)

Some tanks have a DOT # stamped somewhere.


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## u4meme4u (Sep 28, 2022)

a good test of sanity is how quick you can take them back to the tip and dont look back


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## stoneware (Sep 28, 2022)

u4meme4u said:


> a good test of sanity is how quick you can take them back to the tip and dont look back


The problem is during WWII there were a number of training facility's scattered about the province I now reside.

But these cylinders definitely have refrigeration style hose fittings on the valves and sulfur dioxide was used as an early refrigerant.

The next batch of gold that i process, I'll bubble some of the gas into the liquor. .


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## eaglekeeper (Sep 28, 2022)

They also use Ammonia as a refrigerant, I would make sure what you have before you bubble it through gold chloride, silver nitrate and a few others..... not a good combination.


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## orvi (Sep 29, 2022)

*Be extremely cautious with cylinders with unknown content !!!*
Be prepared for potential REAL danger, when you open the valve (rusted/corroded) and it won´t close no matter what you will be doing. Mainly with corrosive gasses, it gets rusted, corroded, etched from minor leaks etc... 

Also, if no marking or colour belt, you cannot be sure what is inside. Maybe you don´t think about it like this, but I know lot of people who refill old cyliders with some other gasses.
Now imagine somebody has filled chlorine inside old refrigerant canister (which isn´t suitable for Cl2). You open the valve slightly, thinking this would be ammonia as it was promised... and you get chlorine out, valve closes but it leaks, as it escapes out, it etch more and more of that valve gap out, accelerating the escape rate even more. What would you do ? There are good few liters of chlorine inside, this is becoming serious threat to your life and also life of the others who live downwind from your place. Imagine that moment, somewhere on backyard, ruptured valve on the cylinder start to leak chlorine a good bit. Nothing to do with it, you know that more you will try to mess with that valve, more it would leak. As you are trying to elaborate how not to kill yourself and your neighbors 50m away, you take first whiff of the chlorine. Tears into the eyes, choking, panicking even more... WW1 on your property  You put the water sprinkler on pointing to the "emission" place, dissolving sodium hydroxide in water never took so long. Hose with piece of plastic foil ducttaped to the top of the cylinder as valve not only emit gas from the piping, but from all around the screw, put into drum of NaOH and you know you have like 20 minutes to the point it start to be hot and does not adsorb much of the gas anymore. It will be tiring night  Deciding what to do - if I will quickly tighten it to the roof of the car and drive it somewhere into the woods, where no one will be harmed, or I am going to buy out all sodium hydroxide in my town, ... or I will race on my car to buy long sleeve of foil, make it the giant "baloon" and contain the gas inside it  yes, these are real ideas that struck the poor guy in that moment. This very dark adventure ended well for the others, poor guy ended "only" with slight permanent lung damage.

My intention is not to scare you or anything like that, but to be more careful about unknown chemical things. What you read above is real story. Of a guy that had taken tossed unmarked cylinders from some chemical facility home... Now when I see rusted valve on full cylinder, I am not willing to put my hands on it. Not even to move it around, while I know something is inside and we do not know what.


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## Fix the thingy (Sep 29, 2022)

Not sure if you have manifold gauges ,but if you do the pressure temperature chart would tell you what is in it if refrigerant is not contaminated. Also gauges would give you dependable shut off in case valve fails.dandies has a refrigerant slider app


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## stoneware (Sep 29, 2022)

eaglekeeper said:


> They also use Ammonia as a refrigerant, I would make sure what you have before you bubble it through gold chloride, silver nitrate and a few others..... not a good combination.


Thanks, the large empty tank, if ammonia probably have enough vapor to react with a spoonful of HCL, I'll post the results.


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## Fix the thingy (Sep 29, 2022)

Fix the thingy said:


> Not sure if you have manifold gauges ,but if you do the pressure temperature chart would tell you what is in it if refrigerant is not contaminated. Also gauges would give you dependable shut off in case valve fails.dandies has a refrigerant slider app


Danfoss


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## madscientistatlarge (Sep 30, 2022)

Run away from them. Any thing could be in them, even Nitrogen Tetroxide (Turns in to nitric acid on contact with moisture, like your' lungs or someone else's), it has been previously and unwisely shipped in steel tank cars lined with fire brick, if it's completely dry not much happens. H2S is immediately toxic at 1 PPM! Worse, if you're lucky you'll smell it briefly, the first whiff kills off the sensory neurons in your' nose that quick. 

Could be ethyl or some other mercaptan, In which case people miles away might think natural gas leak, the kind they evacuate square miles for, I don't think you want to meet the police or fire department at the door with a respirator on and when there's a strange chemical odor (I know of a case where that's just what happened). Good way to get shot. Any number of nasties are possible. Some pretty exotic things can be in a cylinder, things most chemist haven't even thought of.

Orvi is right about this. Unless you want to be responsible for a chemical "leak" possibly killing or injuring you or your' neighbors, or a major, major hazmat response (which you might get to pay for). The sanest thing is to put them back and run away, not walk. People use cylinders for a different content all the time, and they are sometimes ignorant and put the wrong gas in the wrong cylinder with the wrong valve. Even if it's "Only" anhydrous ammonia it can kill, and again will get a hell of a law enforcement response. The trash dump should never have allowed them in. 

Morons who make meth often use whatever cylinder is around to steal ammonia. Some chemical reactions are triggered by pressure and people often use random cylinders for that. If you have no idea of the history, even if you think you know what the cylinder is made of stay away. What you found may well be a bomb due to bad decisions someone else made who wasn't after a bomb.

Weird shit does happen, even when things are handled by people who know better. The largest explosive containment bowls (Hanging over both sides of a semi flat bed and being several inches of steal, several inches of sand, and another several inches of steel) was made to dispose of a 30 gallon tank of organic peroxide solution that got left for over a decade inside a working plastic plant and formed very, very sensitive explosive crystals. This was a 30 Gallon tank. If someone had so much as dropped a wrench on it it would likely have exploded! They removed it using a pulley system and video cameras to load it into the explosive bowl! It was driven as slowly as possible some miles away, a couple of 1/4 inch lines were attached to gently pressureis it and run it slowly info a burner. It flared a number of times, confirming there were explosive crystals. Chemicals can change in storage and become something no one expects (even the people who put them there). If you want to know just how dangerous a mistake this was look it up on the web.

Tanks that are badly corroded on the inside can burst incredibly violently. Don't throw those dice.

For a few years I hydrotested gas cylinders. My very smart and safety oriented boss had a couple close calls himself. This included refrigorant tanks that had been contaminated and formed very nasty gases.


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## orvi (Sep 30, 2022)

madscientistatlarge said:


> Run away from them. Any thing could be in them.
> ........
> The trash dump should never have allowed them in.
> .................
> Morons who make meth often use whatever cylinder is around to steal ammonia. Some chemical reactions are triggered by pressure and people often use random cylinders for that. If you have no idea of the history, even if you think you know what the cylinder is made of stay away. What you found may well be a bomb due to bad decisions someone else made who wasn't after a bomb.


Well said.
Analytics does not work through few milimeters of steel. You cannot see through.


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## kurtak (Sep 30, 2022)

stoneware said:


> Thanks, the large empty tank, if ammonia probably have enough vapor to react with a spoonful of HCL, I'll post the results.



You CLEARLY are not listening to what others are telling you !!!!

First of all - what MAY be in the empty (or near empty) tank does not mean the same thing is in the other tank therefore - testing one tank tells you *absolutely NOTHING about the other tank*

In the second place - a good many - very smart people - have tried to tell you - because you NO IDEA what is in the tank(s) AND because of the *VERY POOR condition* of the tanks you are playing a VERY DANGEROUS game with *YOUR LIFE* to do anything with these tanks other then to *return them to where you got them*

Ask yourself - *are the MANY possible dangers* of messing with these tanks worth the *VERY UNLIKELY HOPE* that it has SO2 in them

IMO - if you think the MANY possible dangers are worth the UNLIKELY HOPE then I might suggest the following

IMO - you have a better chance of playing Russian Rollet with a 357 magnum revolving six gun & not killing yourself then you have playing with these tank & not killing yourself

Kurt


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## kurtak (Sep 30, 2022)

Hmmmm - pressurized tank(s) - filled more likely then not with poisonous gas - BADLY corroded around the valve as well as VERY likely corrosion IN the valve

What could possibly go wrong 

As I said - adds up to about the same thing as playing Russian Rollet

Kurt


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## stoneware (Sep 30, 2022)

kurtak said:


> You CLEARLY are not listening to what others are telling you !!!!
> 
> First of all - what MAY be in the empty (or near empty) tank does not mean the same thing is in the other tank therefore - testing one tank tells you *absolutely NOTHING about the other tank*
> 
> ...


The valves on the cylinders are clearly for refrigeration, in the early years So2 was the refrigerant used in most domestic units.

As mentioned previously could be ammonia but I think this is highly unlikely as ammonia is used absorption systems for domestic use which were not all that common.

The cylinders were obviously kept indoors in dry storage, and are in decent condition.

The landfill should never have allowed them onto the site, as the machine pushing and compacting the rubbish could have ruptured the tanks killing the operator.

Returning them back to the landfill is not an option.

I've been in contact with one of the company's that supply industrial gas's and they do not want the cylinders because they do not own them.


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## galenrog (Sep 30, 2022)

You have been clearly cautioned by several members, yet you wish to continue this foolhardy venture. If you are lucky, you will die quickly. If you are not, you will destroy your lungs and other organs to the point that your body will live in an extremely painful state for decades to come. 

If you have a working brain, you will toss these containers, as did the last person that possessed them, and run away quickly.

I could be wrong. You could know exactly what you are doing.

Time for more coffee.


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## madscientistatlarge (Sep 30, 2022)

Try a web search for "Presto-O-Lite valve". This company produced welding gear. Flare fittings are used for a lot of things. I hadn't noticed the corrosion around the valve but having seen it you should defiantely not mess with those cylinders. 

Acetylene cylinders are very hazardous. In it's free form Acetylene decomposes explosively at about 15 PSI above normal air pressure. To safely store it it is dissolved in solvent. Let some of that solvent out of the tank and you have a gas pocket in the tank which will cause a very violent explosion (Actually two explosions, the first is the acetylene decomposing, then you likely have a fuel air explosion from the decomposed but still flammable gas).


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## stoneware (Sep 30, 2022)

madscientistatlarge said:


> Try a web search for "Presto-O-Lite valve". This company produced welding gear. Flare fittings are used for a lot of things. I hadn't noticed the corrosion around the valve but having seen it you should defiantely not mess with those cylinders.
> 
> Acetylene cylinders are very hazardous. In it's free form Acetylene decomposes explosively at about 15 PSI above normal air pressure. To safely store it it is dissolved in solvent. Let some of that solvent out of the tank and you have a gas pocket in the tank which will cause a very violent explosion (Actually two explosions, the first is the acetylene decomposing, then you likely have a fuel air explosion from the decomposed but still flammable gas).


it's not acetylene in the cylinder and what they're calling corrosion around the valve stem is pipe dope. a product used before teflon tape was invented.


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## Fix the thingy (Sep 30, 2022)

I do commercial refrigeration for a living and I am that guy who can fix the ancient industrial stuff with no paperwork, markings etc. Those are old reclaim tanks for pulling refrigerant out of equipment. Usually yellow and grey in color. What kind of refrigerant is anyones guess without a pressure reading. And pressure reading would tell you nothing if they mixed refrigerant. On the other hand if it is uncontaminated r22 it is going for about 1500 dollars for a 24 pound jug right now. If you know a good hvac guy that is your solution


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Oct 1, 2022)

Do you think your local fire department would take them? If I had to empty them, after reading all the potential dangers I would do the following: Take it out to a large open area. No people or houses for a mile or more in all directions. Attach an acetylene wrench to the tank valve. First attach a long sturdy piece of wood to the acetylene wrench for leverage. Next strap the tank to a tree trunk or other immovable object. Now place a large trash bag over the valve opening. Loosely tie the bag to the valve. Now attach a line to the end of the wood handle. Get far away. 100 feet or even a 100 yards. Slowly pull the line to rotate the wood handle to open the valve a little. Observe with binoculars if the bag inflates. If it does wait for the tank to empty. Wait some time. Approach slowly checking for any odor of chlorine, ammonia, etc. Just a thought.


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## madscientistatlarge (Oct 1, 2022)

And you KNOW it's not acetylene how? Ok, the "pipe dope" looks like corrosion. By the way, pipe dope is still in wide use and suggested over thread tape for some fittings materials. You obviously know NOTHING about fittings on compressed gas cylinders.

The tank you think is not empty is likely an acetylene tank, the valve stem is typical of these tanks. The larger tank you think is empty was probably oxygen initially. These tanks are decades old, and you don't even know if the valves have been switched out. If you are lucky you might get a Darwin award, or you could be permanently injured (how do you think life goes if your' lungs are badly damaged?). 

Best case, there's nothing hazardous in either cylinder and you get squat for taking a huge risk. 

If you really want some S02 it's not hard to make, just dangerous to make, as is making any highly toxic substance. 

If you kill or hurt neighbors how will you feel, and how much prison time will you get?

You've asked about these cylinders, of all places, on a forum for model-T interested people as well as here. How desperate are you for someone who doesn't know better to agree with you? Why wold you think a car nut is likely to know squat about ancient cylinders.

If you are that suicidal, please don't take the neighbors with you. SERIOUSLY.


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## madscientistatlarge (Oct 1, 2022)

SERIOUSLY, CALL THE HAZMAT PEOPLE AT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. Fittings don't mean squat, especially when they are screwed into the valve. Those valves look like acetylene tanks. They are dangerous enough if opened on their side that you have to use a wrench on all acetylene tanks. And that's dangerous for professional welders, for a fool they are bombs or the one you think isn't empty is full of acetone and all the acetylene was used before discarding the tank, assuming that's even what is was used for at one time. DON'T BE STUPID, even if it is SO2, you'll be taking a lot of risk for something that is cheap to buy. If you simply must see, please do so at least 1/2 mile from any other living sole, and please take your I.D. with you so your' body can be identified if the tank explodes or just gasses you right on out.


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## kurtak (Oct 1, 2022)

madscientistatlarge said:


> If you really want some S02 it's not hard to make, just dangerous to make, as is making any highly toxic substance.



When you add SMB to AR it creates SO2 (in solution) which in turn precipitates your gold - but then I am sure you already know that   

Kurt


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## kurtak (Oct 1, 2022)

stoneware said:


> Couple of cylinders the small one is full. The Presto-O-Lite valve appears to be for refrigeration, could this be sulfur dioxide.



The title of this thread should be changed from "Landfill Score - to - I Brought A Problem Home From The Landfill 

Kurt


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## stoneware (Oct 1, 2022)

kurtak said:


> When you add SMB to AR it creates SO2 (in solution) which in turn precipitates your gold - but then I am sure you already know that
> 
> Kurt



Another easy to make reducing agent hydrogen sulfide, very toxic.


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## Yggdrasil (Oct 1, 2022)

stoneware said:


> Another easy to make reducing agent hydrogen sulfide, very toxic.
> 
> View attachment 52436


There is absolutely NO reason to make or use H2S in Gold refining today.
The old PGM refining books from time to time used H2S.
But as far as I know not in Gold refining.
It is a "When you can't smell it anymore you are dead" kind of gas.


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## stoneware (Oct 1, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> There is absolutely NO reason to make or use H2S in Gold refining today.
> The old PGM refining books from time to time used H2S.
> But as far as I know not in Gold refining.
> It is a "When you can't smell it anymore you are dead" kind of gas.


From page 136 Hokes Refining Precious Metals.

Q. I was reading an old book about platinum, and it said that platinum
should be precipitated by sulphuretted hydrogen. Is that a good method?

A. Sulphuretted hydrogen, whose modern name is hydrogen sulphide,
is a poisonous gas with an unpleasant odor the odor of rotten eggs.

It will precipitate platinum if the acid concentration is right, but it will
also precipitate gold, copper, lead, mercury, and many other metals as
well, especially the heavy metals. Because of this latter fact it is rarely
used in the recovery of precious metals.


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 1, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> There is absolutely NO reason to make or use H2S in Gold refining today.
> The old PGM refining books from time to time used H2S.
> But as far as I know not in Gold refining.
> It is a "When you can't smell it anymore you are dead" kind of gas.





stoneware said:


> From page 136 Hokes Refining Precious Metals.


Nope. There are no references to hydrogen sulfide on page 136 of Hoke's book. That part of the book deals with dissolving dental alloys, specifically dissolving them in aqua regia.

The passage you've quoted comes from page 128, and per what you've quoted, 


Hoke said:


> It will precipitate platinum if the acid concentration is right, but it will
> also precipitate gold, copper, lead, mercury, and many other metals as
> well, especially the heavy metals. Because of this latter fact it is rarely
> used in the recovery of precious metals.



Even in 1940, when Hoke wrote her book, she said it was rarely used because of the co-precipitation problems. So, what's the purpose in mentioning it at all?

Dave


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## stoneware (Oct 1, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Nope. There are no references to hydrogen sulfide on page 136 of Hoke's book. That part of the book deals with dissolving dental alloys, specifically dissolving them in aqua regia.
> 
> The passage you've quoted comes from page 128, and per what you've quoted,
> 
> ...


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## Yggdrasil (Oct 1, 2022)

stoneware said:


> From page 136 Hokes Refining Precious Metals.
> 
> Q. I was reading an old book about platinum, and it said that platinum
> should be precipitated by sulphuretted hydrogen. Is that a good method?
> ...


Well I did not say it did not work.
I said it has no use in modern Gold refining.
Today we have much better and safer methods.
And as long as it has a bad smell of rotten eggs it is almost safe.
The moment it disappear you are in serious danger.
Not something I want to play with.


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 1, 2022)

stoneware said:


> View attachment 52437


Why do you quote it again?

Do you understand that this was one of Hoke's responses to a question she received when she was doing consulting work by mail?

Yes, it's a quote from her book. Someone sent her a question about using sulphuretted hydrogen (hydrogen sulfide). She included her response to the question in her book. Essentially, she debunked its use by saying that it would "precipitate platinum if the acid concentration is right", but that it would also precipitate many other metals, so even in 1940 it was rarely used.

Come on Gill!

This has nothing to do with your original post about finding some rusty, old, compressed gas cylinders at your local landfill.

Dave


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