# Turbine engine parts



## Ascrap (Mar 15, 2012)

Deleted by poster!


----------



## AztekShine (Mar 15, 2012)

Your not going to have much luck with anything except maby the Ammount of PM's in your solder. The rest you'll prolly need to start studying. Use Lazersteves search. Read Hoke!


----------



## butcher (Mar 15, 2012)

Ascrap,

Welcome to the forum, I think you will find this forum amazing, and very helpful to any refiner, although sometimes there seems to be a lot to weed through here, I will treat you as I would any other new member and as you to get a copy of Hokes book (see download in book section, or a paper back copy can be bought, I bought mine from action mining), begin reading Hoke’s it, it was written by a lady chemist to teach refining of metals in the jewelry industry but the principles she teaches apply to any type of recovery or refining processes.

We do not or could not supply you with your want list of chemicals and process, but there are many very experienced people who can help with detailed problems, and from the information provided on the forum and the help of these individuals, Heck some of them here could teach a monkey to refine.

Welcome to the best place to learn, but sorry being spoon-fed is not normally done here.

After looking through the information provided here on the forum if you have questions I am sure many of our friendly members will be glad to help.


----------



## Palladium (Mar 15, 2012)

Interesting. Could you post a pic of one of theses? 
http://www.wesgometals.com/resources/technical-articles/aerospace-brazing-today-and-tomorrow/?page_index=1


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 15, 2012)

PM sent.


----------



## 4metals (Mar 15, 2012)

You're talking about the eutectic nickel gold alloy I assume? Are you trying to recycle the vanes or just going for the gold? 

You actually started a company to process these without knowing how to do it?


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 15, 2012)

Deleted by poster


----------



## jack_burton (Mar 15, 2012)

Wow.


----------



## Palladium (Mar 15, 2012)

Where are you located?


----------



## 4metals (Mar 15, 2012)

Eutectic alloys require special techniques which are beyond the typical scope of this forum. Based on your description of the acid ratios you're using and the filter medium (Tee shirts) it sounds like you need to set up for niche refining for a specific scrap type. If you've been doing this for years you also know there is gold in the stators and the rotors. 

You don't seem anxious to be giving out much information about what you do know and there is a lot here on the forum such as testing solutions and cementing waste that you may benefit from to increase your yields and improve your technique. But the overall procedures and changing your refining methods has not been discussed here. 

There are members here who can help you but I'm sure it will be on a consulting basis. 

By the way, before you curse me for not spelling it all out, it would not be me.


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 16, 2012)

Ascrap said:


> BTW to the individuals that have given good advice exp "Ascrap you should read Hokes book" thank you.
> 
> Not trying to be rude just trying to bypass all the BS and so on.


Let me see if I understand your comment. You hope to have readers provide you with guidelines, so you can more efficiently extract the values from your scrap, but you are not the least bit interested in reading Hoke's book, so you might understand what they have to say? 

Here's my advice. 

Read Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what she teaches. By doing so, you will be on level ground with those from whom you hope to gain knowledge. If you refuse, and feel you are above the learning curve, I will be more than shocked to find anyone willing to help you. We struggle with that kind of attitude on a regular basis on this forum. We don't cater to such demands. There is nothing that will serve you better than gaining a basic understanding of the chemistry and mechanics of refining. Asking for solutions to a given problem does not provide that information. 

Why is it that people schedule a recital before they've learned to play the piano?

Harold


----------



## nickvc (Mar 16, 2012)

I'll assume your in the US which means I can't help due to the distance also I believe the process you need is GSPs but which I promised not to discuss, a promise I'm afraid I'm going to keep.
Try sending a PM and see if he's interested but be aware this won't come free or cheap if he agrees to help.
Failing that I'm afraid it's going to be trial and error until you sort out a process that works and economically so, this isn't the easiest material to process as I'm sure your finding.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 16, 2012)

nickvc said:


> I'll assume your in the US which means I can't help due to the distance also I believe the process you need is GSPs but which I promised not to discuss, a promise I'm afraid I'm going to keep.
> Try sending a PM and see if he's interested but be aware this won't come free or cheap if he agrees to help.
> Failing that I'm afraid it's going to be trial and error until you sort out a process that works and economically so, this isn't the easiest material to process as I'm sure your finding.



Nick is right. I've been processing gold or silver brazed turbine parts on a large scale since the early 70s. However, out of respect to my past clients, I can't discuss the processes on an open forum.

I know of at least 6 ways of dealing with Nioro braze. The best, I feel, is an electrolytic method I developed but have never set anyone up to do it. As far as I know, I'm the only one that knows this process.


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 17, 2012)

I understand and am in the process of reading hokes book but it would be nice to have a little help in the mean while. Is that not what this forum is for anyway? :?


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 17, 2012)

I mean if this forum is not for knowlage & help in the refining process or to help fellow refiners & is just for bragging about how much gold you have to the next guy. Then I guess I am in the wrong place.


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 17, 2012)

Deleted by poster!


----------



## Palladium (Mar 17, 2012)

I've ask you two questions and have yet to get a reply.


----------



## Geo (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap said:


> I mean if this forum is not for knowlage & help in the refining process or to help fellow refiners & is just for bragging about how much gold you have to the next guy. Then I guess I am in the wrong place.



this is the right place to learn refining. whats being said is, do not have an inflated sense of self worth.your asking for information on a process that is beyond our scope of expertise.there is only a couple of people here that can do what you want and i can assure you that you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. GSP is one of our more senior members and has been in the business of refining (perhaps) longer than you have been alive.if he tells you that what you want is something you will have to pay for or invest the time to start at the bottom and work your way up to learn your self.. you have two options here,ask what you may be able to offer to have someone come and do it for you, or learn the basics and do trial and error to figure it out on your own.


----------



## jimdoc (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap said:


> Once again if anyone wants to share & gain knowlage regarding refining NIORO braze from turbine engines just send me a pm.
> 
> If you would like to just share some toughts & provide some advice so I dont kill myself experementing please pm me.



Maybe you could share some pictures and more info, so people will see what you are working with. Then maybe someone would be able to give you advice. It seems like you are here to learn any secrets you can, and then disappear after you get what you want. If you want someone to share with you, then being open to sharing what you have and know already will help others open up with their secrets.



Ascrap said:


> I mean if this forum is not for knowlage & help in the refining process or to help fellow refiners & is just for bragging about how much gold you have to the next guy. Then I guess I am in the wrong place.



Seems like you may be here bragging about the material you have? If you are aware that this forum is for sharing knowledge, maybe you could help out also. Sorry I haven't processed any material like you are talking about. But I do have a roll of Nioro, so it does interest me.


Jim


----------



## butcher (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap wrote:
Ask me a question I can answer and I will tell you the best answer to it I know, ask me a question that I do not know the answer to I will tell you I do not know. Here I have no clue what materials you have, and the problems you have.

Tell me what this metal consists of and the metals soldered or plated, tell me how you are recovering the values and refining it,

yes basically teach me what you know, and even if I cannot help you maybe I can learn a little about refining jet engines (under my oak tree), also just maybe I can show you something you do not know, or maybe I cannot, but at least we can discuss it, and who knows we may both learn something from sharing what we do or do not know.

I think you reading Hoke's book is a great start, she will not teach you to refine jet engines, but the principles can help you in doing it.

Reading also shows me you are willing to join in with this group and learn, well lets just take another step and share with each other what we do and do not know.

Now GSP may or may not share this work he has spent his life on, and I would not expect him to share a trade secret or where he buried his gold, But I know he has shared almost everything he has and would give the shirt off his back to help someone, (as long, as they did not demand it from him then they would probably freeze in bell), and I am sure if you explained your process even if he did not give away secrets, you would most likely learn from him and may even improve your process to an acceptable level, or who knows.

Your attitude seems to be tempering, lets try and help each other learn and cut out all this bull, who know you help us little hobby refiners learn and we help you learn.


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 17, 2012)

Deleted this one~


----------



## AztekShine (Mar 17, 2012)

:shock: :shock: :twisted: :shock: 
Wow! I gota see it.


----------



## oldgeek (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap said:


> To anyone who don''t know it all,If not or your just to smart & know it all please keep your toughts to yourself. If not looking for a back and forth conversation that is just going to waste time!!!!I mean if this forum is not for knowlage & help in the refining process or to help fellow refiners & is just for bragging about how much gold you have to the next guy. Then I guess I am in the wrong place. Is that enough honey for you guys?Now does anyone wanna talk sense or just more back and forth"?Anymore questions or does someone wanna cut to the chase.



I know NOTHING of what you are trying to do, but I can provide a little help:

You need to "Cool Your Jet's" Really. :lol: 

You seem to be in a rush, Your process will not come to you overnight. I promise you this great group of people can help you, with your unique material, if you let them. There are hundreds of years of combined experience here, but your seemingly taunting remarks will not help at all.


----------



## Geo (Mar 17, 2012)

do you process the whole stator at a time, or break it down into smaller pieces? it seems to me that working with such a large piece would pose certain problems in itself.working with just the slats may be easier and less dangerous and would certainly free up storage space until a process can be obtained.


----------



## Geo (Mar 17, 2012)

also,here is a patent that describes exactly what you are asking about.

http://www.patents.com/us-3958984.html

excerpt : EXAMPLE I 

A sample tester indicated at 10 in FIGS. 1 and 2 and comprising a bottom plate 12 and a top plate 14 affixed thereto having a sample cavity 16 therein was formed from Type 400 stainless steel. An 85% gold/15% nickel brazing alloy was brazed into the sample cavity 16 and machined so as to completely fill the cavity. The braze was then treated as follows:


----------



## Palladium (Mar 17, 2012)

I'll cut to the chase!!! With that attitude i won't help you one bit. 



Ascrap said:


> Anymore questions or does someone wanna cut to the chase.


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 17, 2012)

FIne by me palladium of course you won't help you already seen the pictures & got the information you needed. That was my point from the get go.
I don't need people that just want to get info from me and in return dont give any back. I am sure many guys in here do have experience with this stuff, but there are many that don't and would like to know. Me saying that some guys will use me just to gain knowlage and then not give any back is not an attitude it is a reality that is just a waste of my time, Its called "gold fever". Now if you got anything to say about it other than yes its true you have issues. If you cant sit there and say that there are people in here that would like to take advantage then we just aint on the same page. I am trying to weed out the BS.
Its was easy for me to join this forum, so it is just as easy for someone to come in get what they want and getout.
Myself on the other hand am not like that I would love to learn & share with others. I like the idea of people that want to get smarter & gain knowlage & share in return.
More so in todays world of crooks & just plain crazy people. People with common sense that like to learn & teach are a dieing breed. LOL Funny but true.

I really don't understand why me wanting to talk less and do more learning is wrong but whatever.
Now let stop the back and forth junk as I am already tired of it and I have bearly joined the forum.
Jet are cool. In a rush to learn? Whats wrong with that?
I am 33 Obese & a heavy smoker lol I probly wont make 55.
Something wrong with puting money away for my childrens future?
Just a old fashiond guy here with old school morals, btw I will agree to an extent I have a lil bit of a atitude but then again, have you noticed lately what the
world is coming to & how people have no common sense & love to waste other peoples time among other things? LOL 

SO YA I AM IN A RUSH. 
Any way, we are cutting the stators into 10 - 12 pieces
I keep saying me but at the end of the day they are my freinds stators I dont get one red penny off these stuff.
Unless I come up with a better program that yields more gold.
Stators usually run a certain avg amount of gold and the last few batches have run as much as 50% lower than avg letting me know that something is being done wrong or someone is stealing or both.


----------



## jimdoc (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap said:


> Stators usually run a certain avg amount of gold and the last few batches have run as much as 50% lower than avg letting me know that something is being done wrong or someone is stealing or both.



Companies learn ways of saving money all the time with precious metal bearing materials. Maybe they started using less braze, or a different formula of braze. I know from researching my roll (partial roll) of Nioro that there are at least two different formulas. Or like you said, someone could be stealing or losing gold. 

Also, maybe you could cut smaller sections off for testing so you would know what to expect from each engine?

Jim


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 17, 2012)

Deleted by poster


----------



## Geo (Mar 17, 2012)

did you look at the patent in my reply above? it gives the particulars of what you need to know.


----------



## Geo (Mar 17, 2012)

STEP 1 -- CLEANING 

This step of the process involves the cleaning of the surface of the braze that is to be stripped as well as the adjacent base metal. Basically, the removal of organic dirt and the like is accomplished by the action of known degreasers, various acid treatments and/or anodic cleaning. 

STEP 2 -- RINSING 

A water rinse. 

STEP 3 -- INITIAL STRIP 

In this strip, the primary metal of the braze is attacked by dissolving the same in an aqueous solution of a water-soluble alkali cyanide and a nitro-substituted aromatic compound, optionally in the presence of a compatible wetting agent. The stripping bath is employed at a temperature range of from room temperature to about 185.degree.F, with a temperature of about 160.degree. to 180.degree.F being preferred with the residence time of the braze in the bath being from about 20 to 30 minutes. 

As disclosed in U.S. Pat. 2,649,361 and my copending application referenced above, typical alkali cyanides include the ammonium cyanides and those alkali metal and alkali earth cyanides which are ionizable in water to give cyanide ions and which are soluble in water 

The nitro-substituted aromatic compounds referred to are typically nitrobenzoic acid and derivatives thereof such as sodium m-nitrobenzoate, nitroaniline, nitrophenol, etc. 

STEP 4 --RINSING 

A water rinse. 

STEP 5 -- ACID STRIP 

This acid strip is employed to attack oxides formed during the initial strip and also the various other metals of the braze. In general, this acid strip solution employs up to 50% of nitric acid, a minor amount of hydrochloric acid and a base metal attack inhibitor. The temperature of this stripping bath should be about 100.degree. to 120.degree.F, with the residence time of the braze in the bath being about 30 seconds to about 5 minutes. 

STEP 6 -- RINSING 

A water rinse. 

The method of the present invention is further illustrated by the following Example:


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 17, 2012)

Deleted by poster!


----------



## acpeacemaker (Mar 17, 2012)

Palladium said:


> I'll cut to the chase!!! With that attitude i won't help you one bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Half this thread only brings one thought. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"
I wish you luck


----------



## Geo (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap said:


> Ok now we are getting somewhere.
> 
> Unfortunately I know nothing about this. I don't think hokes will teach on this will it?
> 
> ...



i have no idea how to proceed with cyanide. the link in the reply above gives more details than the excerpt i post. follow the link.its a U.S. patent for the process you are looking for.there may be others as thats the first one i found at the patent website.


----------



## jimdoc (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap said:


> Also if I go this route I will need lots of homework



Lots of homework never hurt anyone. Well at least I don't think it ever did!

Jim


----------



## jack_burton (Mar 17, 2012)

I'll throw this out there since no one has yet. Please be very careful how you proceed with cyanide. It is the most unforgiving method available to refining as in it will kill you dead if you mishandle it. I don't use it, so I can't offer any advice outside of just use caution and either bring in an expert to show set up and show you or to just plain do it for you.


----------



## Lou (Mar 17, 2012)

I think the stator you posted is a silver-nickel braze. 

You seem to have the alloy composition down pat.

I would recommend just selling them to ECS refining over in Terrel, TX. I have a connect there I can pass along. They've been doing stators for the past 15-20 years. 

Cyanide won't really touch these--have to use acid or an electrolytic process. Given the amount of waste solution you'll certainly create, the most environmentally friendly (and legal) option is to let the people with the proper permits do it. I can think of one other outfit in Texas who just got popped by the EPA for doing it without a permit and proper environmental controls. He also had a history of doing crap like that so I don't know if it'll turn out well for him. 


I can care less about the gold stators but I'll do the palladium and silver ones for you.


And you can change the obese and smoker thing. Trust me.

As far as the list of engines containing these things:

•	GE CF6
•	CFM56
•	PW JT8
•	PW JT9
•	RR RB211
•	PW 2000
•	IAE V2500
•	Soloviev D-30
•	Progress D-18T (Lotarev D-18T)
•	Aviadvigatel PS-90
•	CF6
•	JT8D
•	JT9D
•	RB211


all have varying amounts of precious metals depending on year, who made them, what service they're for, etc. 




The stators contain anywhere from 0.25-2 ounces troy per stator in gold in the form of Au 82 Ni 18 braze. They are either 410 stainless or inconel. The gold stators will look gold around the braze point and will have a purple halo of volatilized gold from when they were made.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 17, 2012)

Jt3D, RB211, and all those GE engines. There are some 5 oz stators out there, really, Lou.


----------



## butcher (Mar 17, 2012)

I still have not heard how you have been trying to process these although you mention aqua regia process.

if most of the part was base metal stainless except the welds why could you not cut the welded portion and process separate from the bulk of materials, I would think if they are stainless an electrolytic process could be one way to approach it, my thinking is using something that would not attack base metals as much as it would the brazing.
High percentage of nitrate electrolyte comes to mind, and possibly something to assist with the gold portion in the solder (? a little salt in the mix?).


Brazing on metals is not like welding (melting two (or three) pieces of metal together, sometime's with a filler metal rod or wire), brazing only sticks to the surface like solder, It seems to me maybe you can remove much of this mechanically from the surface of the metals, grinding sanding? 

Ascrap, I can understand you being apprehensive in this business, and may think we are here just to pick your brain to profit from you, but you do not know us, and we do not know you, this forum is much different than that, we are here to share knowledge and help each other as much as we can, do we come here to learn yes we do.

You have had an attitude (slight) but not good for our group, maybe justifiable I do not know, but you have only hurt yourself with it, but you have also insulted a forum member, and wasted other's time, there was no need for that, my time is as important to me as your time is to you. you also say you do not want the back and forth and want to go forward learning from us, It is simple and you said it cut the BS, and an apology would not hurt either, Palladium has been on the forum for many years, he has contributed an awful lot to the forum, and who Knows he may just be the one to help you out, you shared nothing with palladium he could not have dug up on his own.

Also this forum is not like others on the internet, here member’s help each other and gladly do so, and we also have rules of the forum we gladly follow, have you read these yet?


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 17, 2012)

Ascrap,

I sent you a PM.


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 17, 2012)

Butcher said:


> Brazing on metals is not like welding (melting two (or three) pieces of metal together, sometime's with a filler metal rod or wire), brazing only sticks to the surface like solder, It seems to me maybe you can remove much of this mechanically from the surface of the metals, grinding sanding?



Butcher,

You are correct about the braze adhering to the surface of the alloy. With the proper pretreatment the braze can literally be peeled off of the joints of the alloy.

Here's some braze I recently harvested for a customer:




Steve


----------



## Palladium (Mar 17, 2012)

Butcher says things very well. I usually don't say much anymore but the one thing that draws me out is usually someone’s attitude. I think this is what i was most drawn to. As far as the problem you have i have discussed this field of study with a couple of the forum members in the past so it's not something new to me. Yes i wanted pictures. Yes i wanted to see what you had. Now not only have i learned something new, but so have others. There are 2, maybe 3 people on here who can help you with what you want. You have heard from all of them. One will be your saving grace. Welcome to the forum.


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 17, 2012)

Here's another shot from the same batch shown above.




Steve


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 18, 2012)

Palladium no harm intended I am just trying to make things simple. As far as ECS goes they learned from a guy we know then they cut him.
I have also heard of a lot going on with them lately including them short changing people out of millions.
Who you dealing with RICK?


----------



## Palladium (Mar 18, 2012)

I couldn't tell you even if i wanted to. Part of my business ethics. I welcome you to the forum and understand your plight but please don't speak in public when it comes to forum member’s names or associations they may pursue off forum. Some people only participate here because of the anonymity the forum provides. Seems you’re on the right track though. Good luck.


----------



## butcher (Mar 18, 2012)

Ascrap welcome, to the forum, it is just my hope we can all get along here and learn something, thanks for the pictures, reminds me of a steam turbine, I also hope you learn what you need here on the forum I think after your here for a while you will find several useful things to help you in your bussiness, and you will come to realize what a great group of people we have here, I believe this is the best place to learn about these subjects, and the best people to learn them from, I hope you will soon feel the same.


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 18, 2012)

*Way too much attitude here. I won't tolerate it much longer. There's a one way trip in your future if you persist. 

Get a grip, and start addressing the readers with respect. No more smart remarks. The next one will be your last one. 

Harold*


----------



## kurt (Mar 18, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> *Way too much attitude here. I won't tolerate it much longer. There's a one way trip in your future if you persist.
> 
> Get a grip, and start addressing the readers with respect. No more smart remarks. The next one will be your last one.
> 
> Harold*



Hmmmm - I didn't see that coming :twisted: :lol:


----------



## kurt (Mar 18, 2012)

Dear Ascrap – I can’t help you with your particular refining situation – but what I can help you with is your “need” of change in attitude so you can get the help you “need” for your particular refining situation!!!!!

(1) Lets start with the “fact” that you came hear asking for help – because you are having a problem. 

(2) you decided to attempt doing this your self because you felt the company you were dealing with was screwing you 

(3) you at least have a general understanding of the process but not a full understanding or you wouldn’t be asking for help

(4) you have a guy working with you (&/or for you) that used to work for the company you felt was screwing you & apparently he doesn’t know as much as he lead you to believe or again you would not be asking for help here

(5) you are the new guy here (meaning you are at the bottom of the totem pole – NOT THE BOSS)

(6) butcher, Palladium, lazersteve, 4metals, Lou, GSP (goldsilverpro) & Harold_V are all guys that have been here from the beginning & are “in fact” the very reason this forum exists. They are ALL professional refiners – some of them retired from 40 plus years of running their own refineries (meaning they are at the top of the totem pole – THEY ARE THE BOSS)

(7) you may be the owner operator of your venture & so you may be used to giving orders & saying how things are going to be done in your venture --- but you are not the owner operator of this forum - & yet you persist with this attitude that you can come here on this forum & tell those that are in charge here how they must work with you – as if they are employed by you & may get fired if they don’t tow your line 

(8) you are on a fast track to finding out it is the other way around

(9) then you will be back to square one (still needing the help you came here looking for) & trust me – you are NOT going to find that help ANY PLACE ELSE

(10) just off the top of my head I would say if you are not get back the expected gold when you go to precipitate from your AR – its probably because you have an excess of nitric in your AR & you haven’t done what needs to be done to expel it (or prevent it in the first place) --- but then again – you would know that (& how to deal with it) if you had read Hokes book --- LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD TO DO

(11) You need to take a step back - & understand that you are not the teacher/boss here --- you are the student/employee

Kurt


----------



## its-all-a-lie (Mar 18, 2012)

The Gold Bug is a nasty fella, when he bites you noone can help.


----------



## butcher (Mar 18, 2012)

Kurt, I like your post, and feel you stated things well, I would like to say, I am not a boss, although I have learned here since being on the forum, I am not a teacher, I am a share-er, I just share what I have learned from others here, and also what I have learned from studying and from making mistakes.

I am not a professional refiner, I am just a new member who came here to learn, worked hard, tried to behave while I came here to the forum, and follow its rules the best I could, many of the members here who joined the forum long after I did asked for help, I would share what I learned with them, many of these guys soon passed me up in their output of fine gold or other metals, most of them have labs and places to work that make my little table under the shade tree look pitiful, But I like my shade tree lab and my little hobby, and I like to learn and share with others, and I like what the forum stands for, the forum has high principles and morals, it is a friendly group who share and try to help others, I feel I have many friends here, I do not know these people personally, or even know what they look like or sound like, but I feel I can trust them, and know if I was in a bind they would lend me a hand.

I was asked to help with the forum, I would like to do that, it has given me so much, the forum has the ability to help so many people all over the world, and to help many of us who may have tried stupid things to learn to do what we are trying to do safely and successfully, I am just an old country boy back yard hobby refiner trying to learn and share and help others, and help the best I can to keep this wonderful forum, what the founder intended, a great place to learn, and help others.

Ascrap it is my hope you will learn here and help us in making the forum a great place.


----------



## Palladium (Mar 18, 2012)

I think the fellow is ready to learn. If i was in his situation i would probably be impatient to. Nothing like having money tied up and sitting there to make a man get antsy. Now where was we at on this thread before we got side tracked?


----------



## Ascrap (Mar 19, 2012)

Palladium exactly my point. Now like I stated before I am not involved in this its my freinds/inlaws that are doing it but if I come up with a more efficient way then I get a piece of the pie. I personaly havent bought a engine in 6+ years just because of the cut throat nature of the business at which time I was just buying the engines and reseeling them to a refiner but then splitting the profits with a business partner for financial reasons.

Steve that pic is so cool.


----------



## Geo (Mar 19, 2012)

would it be possible or cost effective as far as time to do a mechanical separation of the braze as in the picture from lazersteve. if the braze can be removed in this manner then the process is over half completed. a hydraulic press to push the slat out of the ring maybe. remember, scrap does not need to look pretty as long as it comes apart.


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 19, 2012)

The braze will not separate like this until the part has been chemically treated first.

Prior to treatment the part is as solid as if were made from a single piece as the conditions inside the turbine place large forces and heat on the part during normal operation. There is a lot of engineering and testing that goes into the design of these things so that they don't fail when operating.

Steve


----------



## butcher (Mar 19, 2012)

Ascrap, I was trying to find the post where you stated I believe that the material was stainless, I could bit remember the number but something like 416SS(?), I could not find it, I wanted to see if I could find the composition of the alloy and try to tell composition of maybe nickel or chromium, I was thinking maybe attacking them and if it may be possible to undermine the solder, and for some reason an electrolytic cell seems a good choice, one that will not attack the solder, or the stainless to much extent but maybe just possibly a component in the stainless like nickel, or chromium, or even a component in the solder itself and possibly the bubbling action at the anode assist in loosening its bond.


I also notice you went back and deleted many of you posts, I know this has been a rough start on the forum, but there are rules against that, it make a thread or discussion hard to understand and can also take meaning from what is or has been said, I sure wished you would not have done that, as I felt we were just beginning to work thing out so we could all learn something here, and felt this thread already had too much fuss and not enough meat to it, and we were just starting to learn something here and could feel maybe the drama was past us.

Do not go back and delete post to change the meaning or overall discussion of a topic, editing to correct information is one thing. And understand the rules on this forum are simple, and are for the benefit of all of us as a group.


----------



## Lou (Mar 19, 2012)

Already banned him for pulling that stunt as soon as I saw what useful information he offered was removed.

I have little patience for people who would a.) slander others' names, b.) come here demanding info of members, and c.) not read the rule on deleting content.

Given the fact that the guys who love to delete content are usually the ones who love to cause trouble, I feel justified.


----------



## AztekShine (Mar 19, 2012)

Awe man I was really wanting to learn how these motors were processed...


----------



## acpeacemaker (Mar 19, 2012)

Just because the OP is gone doesn't mean the subject has to go away. It sounds like several people have been involved with the likes. That is if there willing to share more.

-Andrew


----------



## Geo (Mar 19, 2012)

i dont know when any one of us may have the opportunity to invest in jet engines, but if one drops from the sky on to my property,can i keep it. :shock: :shock: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## AztekShine (Mar 19, 2012)

My brother from a nother mother re-wires them and his dads a pilot so that's why Im highly interested.
Nc also has a boneyard about 50miles from here.


----------



## acpeacemaker (Mar 19, 2012)

Geo said:


> i dont know when any one of us may have the opportunity to invest in jet engines, but if one drops from the sky on to my property,can i keep it. :shock: :shock: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



It's in there somewhere...


----------



## NoIdea (Mar 19, 2012)

Hello - If it were me doing this job :lol: , i would look into electro-cutting around the objects wanted, ive always wanted to try electro-cutting. 

Deano


----------



## AztekShine (Mar 19, 2012)

You talkin about plasma cutting? My aunt has one shed let me borrow. Or sell it to me cheep.

I've played with it before . It cuts like butter. I was cutting free hand spirals


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 20, 2012)

Lou said:


> Given the fact that the guys who love to delete content are usually the ones who love to cause trouble, I feel justified.


No need for justification. He was not a good fit for the board and would have been banned anyway. Trust me on that one!

Well done, Lou!

Harold


----------



## NoIdea (Mar 20, 2012)

AztekShine said:


> You talkin about plasma cutting?



Evening - Nope, i did not mean plasma cutting. Its cutting using electrolysis, your cathode is stainless, for example, and would look like a syringe needle, your electrolyte is pumped through the cathode needle, the cathode is brought close to what you want cutting, your anode, and apply the current. Due to the small size of the cathode, only the point close the the cathode will disolve into solution, anything that adheres to the surface and is not put into solution will be blasted away by the electrolyte jet. If a non-conduction sheath is put over the cathode so that only the very tip is showing and conducting, you can drill holes.

Sounds fun eh :lol: 

Deano

P.S. Good bye to attitude :mrgreen:


----------



## butcher (Mar 20, 2012)

Sounds very interesting, is it a slow process, or is there something that would speed up the process, are high pressures involved.

You know how it is curiosity is killing the cat.


----------



## NoIdea (Mar 20, 2012)

butcher said:


> Sounds very interesting, is it a slow process, or is there something that would speed up the process, are high pressures involved.
> 
> You know how it is curiosity is killing the cat.



Hey butcher, check out wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochemical_machining

Deano


----------



## butcher (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks, NoIdea,
I like the Ideas 

I guess you also seen this one sparks and electrolyte, also sometime used on jet engines parts.

Too bad these do not sound like something we could make in our backyard, they would be fun to play with though.

And sound like they could be the tool for the job.

http://www.iqsdirectory.com/edm/#info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining


----------



## patnor1011 (Mar 20, 2012)

It sounds funny but we probably need to always quote new members posts - in that way they will stay quoted even if they alter original post. That may clutter thread a bit and cost us some space but I am willing to pay for that considering forum will be more informative if original content can be seen. I am already doing that to some extent as it happened quite a lot of times that threads become nearly worthless due to deletion of some posts.

*edited spelling


----------



## 4metals (Mar 20, 2012)

Partnor,

That is a good idea, too many members like to change teir mind and cut and run. This guy was in it for a payoff and said as much. When he realized he either had to pay or study he wasn't interested any more. The forum is better off without him.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 20, 2012)

NoIdea,

In the 70s, I knew of a large company that was doing vane (blade) replacement on stators. The blades get dinged up and, for safety and fuel usage reasons, they must be replaced when they get out of spec. They had 3 EDM machines which cost about $250,000 each at the time, and 6 people ran them on 2 shifts. They were cutting out the gold braze holding these things together. They could only do a total of about 50 stators per week with the 3 EDM machines. Of course, since undamaged outer and inner rings were worth $1000s, they went slowly and accurately to prevent damage to them. The gold removed ended up in the large sludgy oil reservoirs in each EDM unit and made recovery difficult. They eventually saw the folly of all this and went to a chemical braze removal system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 20, 2012)

4metals said:


> ... That is a good idea, too many members like to change their mind and cut and run. This guy was in it for a payoff and said as much. When he realized he either had to pay or study he wasn't interested any more. ...



Maybe he learned what he was looking for via PM and figured he would move on? I find it odd that his last post was showing promise and them he flipped and deleted his previous posts.

I can't help but think he gained what he was looking for via a private message and moved on. It's a shame he pulled all the information he had already posted as his way of upholding his side of the bargain. He got what he was after then pulled his contribution, not very professional to say the least.

Maybe the opposite is true, perhaps someone upset him via PM and he split for that reason?

Steve


----------



## eeTHr (Mar 20, 2012)

The guy was puzzling. In the beginning, he said he wanted to contribute by sharing knowledge, and then a little later he said that he didn't want anyone to steal his "information." That sounds a little scattered, to me. I mean, what was he intending to "share," if he didn't want anyone to know what he was doing?

Did he think that all of a sudden, everyone on the forum is going to go out and start buying jet engines?

I think when people start posting questions, without looking over the forum for at least a little while, they can be working on their own predetermined concept of what the forum is all about, and they totally miss the general attitude of it.

Was he really paranoid about people stealing information from him? I thought his story sounded a bit fishy from the beginning, but I wouldn't want to say that maybe he was the one working for the stator recovery company, and what he was really doing here was preparing to rip off his boss. It seemed to me that his story sounded a bit like he was making it up as he went along. I couldn't say for sure, though. But the whole thing did seem off-beat, to me.

I do know that con artists will use subtle intimidation, to try and prevent people from asking question that they don't want to have to answer. They will infer that you would be insulting them if you try to go into an area of questioning that they don't want you to. Sometimes they will put out some overt anger at it, then make it seem like you owe them the behavior they are seeking. Sort of dare you to comply with their line of reasoning. Yeah, it's all very clever---that's why they are called con "artists"!

But then who knows....

Whatever the reason for the stink---it appears that everyone smelled it. 8)


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 20, 2012)

lazersteve said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> > ... That is a good idea, too many members like to change their mind and cut and run. This guy was in it for a payoff and said as much. When he realized he either had to pay or study he wasn't interested any more. ...
> ...



Steve,

I PMed him twice but he certainly didn't get anything from me, if that's what you're thinking. 

I basically told him to cool his heels or he was going to get booted. I also told him that he was a fool to discuss any details about this subject on a public forum. My take on the guy was that he knew absolutely nothing about how to process these and still doesn't. It sounded like he had some background on dismantling engines and sorting and selling the various superalloys. He was sending the gold bearing stators out to a refiner but decided to try and find out how to process them himself. He had an idea of how the refiner was doing it and he related the process, which was full of holes, to me. Pretty Mickey Mouse. I never replied to him. The guy left with no more knowledge than he had at the beginning.


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 20, 2012)

Chris,

I did exactly as you did with him in my PM. I came to the same conclusion as you did about him. He was fishing for information with little or no 'bait' on the hook. I agree he left knowing more than he did when he arrived. I suspect he may reincarnate himself and try again.

My statement in the previous post was not directed at anyone, in fact I was including my own PM to him in the possible reasons for his actions. 

I never had *any* doubts about your stance on the subject Chris.

Steve


----------



## patnor1011 (Mar 20, 2012)

But he stated several times that he do not own that company or work for them. He said few times that he is only looking for informations for his friends. 
My understanding is that he wanted to learn something to be useful for somebody, and wanted to use that to get inside and have his cut of cake from somebody else's table. :| 
Nothing wrong with that. His altering of posted informations was wrong.


----------



## patnor1011 (Mar 20, 2012)

How I love guys stating "WE" instead of I am. We is something what might be used as good excuse many times.


----------



## its-all-a-lie (Mar 20, 2012)

I am still clueless as to why this topic should not be discussed on an open forum. Before this thread, i never knew gold was used in this type application, and would have thought platinum would have been a better metal for the job because of its high melting point. Can someone explain this a little?


----------



## Palladium (Mar 20, 2012)

Even after i made it clear i wouldn't help him i guess he thought i still might because i tried to be nice to him. Here's the pm i got from him yesterday.

Ascrap 

Posts: 11

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:32 am
Sent: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:58 pm 
From: Ascrap 
To: Palladium 
Sub: Turbine

I have had suspitions regarding the Nitric but once again ny stuff so I cant any mistakes on other peoples gold.
They are currently doing a mixture of 3 parts of 50/50 nitric & water & 1 part muriatic. They are then adding water to dilute & a creamy/jelly white substance, then sodium sulfate. Why do you not wont me to mention names? Would you do it this way.


----------



## lazersteve (Mar 20, 2012)

He sent me the same message yesterday. It's obvious he was fishing.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 20, 2012)

its-all-a-lie said:


> I am still clueless as to why this topic should not be discussed on an open forum. Before this thread, i never knew gold was used in this type application, and would have thought platinum would have been a better metal for the job because of its high melting point. Can someone explain this a little?



You guys can discuss it all you want. I truly wish you luck. I have already said too much and I will only enter in on a peripheral basis, at most. I also hope the other 2 (or, maybe, 3 or 4) on the forum that have knowledge of these things do the same and I have no reason to think otherwise.

Before the advent of this forum, knowledge in the PM refining industry was mostly made up of trade secrets. Now, about the only trade secrets are those that we choose not to discuss. I know that I am totally willing to discuss about 95% of all I know and have about 4700 posts to prove it. Those 4700 posts are a free gift from me to you. You did absolutely nothing to deserve them.

Aircraft scrap is a niche business for some. However, I could probably list 10 other very profitable, large scale, niche PM businesses, some of which I have tried to discuss, mostly to deaf ears - search and see. Unless we are very stupid, when we find a profitable niche that only we and a few others know anything about, we keep our mouths shut. Loose lips sink ships. Every one on the forum keeps "trade secrets" of one type or another. They can be what keeps food on the table. I respect these secrets and will never try to coerce them out of someone. 

I got the same message. Of course he's fishing and I don't blame him a bit. He sees the potential and wants to be a part of it.


----------



## maynman1751 (Mar 20, 2012)

> Did he think that all of a sudden, everyone on the forum is going to go out and start buying jet engines?



Damn! I just went out and bought $1,000,000 in jet engines :shock: and now you guys ran this fine gentleman off. Now I'll never know how to do it! :x :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## glondor (Mar 20, 2012)

Maynman. I have a way out for you. Take an online jet engine mechanics course, refurbish them and resell to the major airlines. Easypeasy and no hassle involved. :lol:


----------



## Geo (Mar 20, 2012)

sell em on feebay.


----------



## samuel-a (Mar 20, 2012)

I knew that picture looks familiar...

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&h...t=15&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:15&tx=49&ty=70


----------



## butcher (Mar 20, 2012)

GSP,
I completely understand your stance on this subject, and I really appreciate all of the information you have shared with the forum. This forum would not be what it has become without your help here, you have greatly enhanced the forum with much of your treasured knowledge, and information you have provided, giving us much of this treasured knowledge and getting nothing in return, except the knowing that you have helped others, also like I said I would not expect someone to post on open forum where they buried their gold.

I hate to see anyone banned from the forum, but if they just disrupt the forum, we are better off without the trouble, removing bad apples from the barrel is necessary, other wise the whole barrel will end up rotten.

I also have to say it is making me very curious how the brazing welds were lifted as a foil looking material, and how the chemical or electrical or whatever reaction could get up underneath them, between the brazing weld and the metal being welded, as the brazing would almost flow into the surface of the metals parts, and the bond so tight how can much of anything get up under it to react? Almost like smearing warm butter on toast, how could I remove the butter later as foils?


----------



## samuel-a (Mar 20, 2012)

butcher said:


> how could I remove the butter later as foils?



Good question!


I don't know why, but freezing with liquid nitrogen was the first thing that came up in my mind when i saw this question.... Please, tell my i'm not crazy.


----------



## Geo (Mar 20, 2012)

the question of flux comes to mind.you wouldnt have to attack the base metal or the braze if you can get to the flux between the two.


----------



## butcher (Mar 20, 2012)

Problem I see with flux is the braze metal wants to flow where ever the flux is, wouldnt this just spread out the brazing further thinning it out over a larger area?


----------



## sena (Mar 20, 2012)

could it be like in-quartation with copper , leaving stainless steel behind ?


----------



## Geo (Mar 20, 2012)

ive never did welds on stainless steel, but flux on copper is another story. solder only sticks to where the flux is. if you get sloppy or push the flux around with the torch you can make a mess in a hurry. i know this is different than soldering copper joints but i cant help but think about some stainless ive seen welded and there was flux used on that as well. with mig welding, argon gas or a combination of inert gases is used as a buffer or a kind of flux but thats on galvanized and regular steel.i would imagine that on the big turbines, the welds are all done by hand with a stick welder. i dont know if gold alloy braze is fluxed on the wire or stick or if its brushed on.


----------



## qst42know (Mar 20, 2012)

No flux remains in the joint if it did the bond would fail. In a high performance application such as turbine blades the joints likely need scanned (by some means) for flux inclusions.

Flux is essentially a high temperature cleaner that scavenges oxygen from the surface prevents further oxidation and is displaced by the braze metal.


----------



## NoIdea (Mar 21, 2012)

samuel-a said:


> Good question!
> 
> 
> I don't know why, but freezing with liquid nitrogen was the first thing that came up in my mind when i saw this question.... Please, tell my i'm not crazy.



Ha ha ha Sorry ... your crazy :mrgreen: 

I have read the use of liquid N on old car tires, the rubber shatters leaving behind the metal bands, hmmm, not sure how brittle the parts of interest are, but it would be worth a try.

Oh, and OK, the man is a nob, maybe we could get back to what we are supposed to be good at, thats PM's, not gossip and back bitting, just my 2 cents worth. 8) 

Deano


----------



## jack_burton (Mar 21, 2012)

Probably in an ideal world, if someone could afford to purchase used jet engines, you'd be able to afford this process:

I've seen the same set up in the eWaste industry, probably would have some relevance to recovering engine parts.

Melt down the slats whole.

Pour and mold into half or quarter inch plates, 3 or 4 feet square.

Drop the plates along an assembly line of (electrically charged chemical) baths to extract the values. 

One certain type of value per bath, until you finally end up with the gold.


----------



## AztekShine (Mar 21, 2012)

So Jack. If I went to a boneyard and bought a totally destroyed. It would be expensive . 

Wha if I just bought the stator..... Theoreticly speaking of course because I am poor  :lol:


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 22, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> Every one on the forum keeps "trade secrets" of one type or another.


I don't. I have willingly disclosed everything I know (which isn't much).

Harold


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 22, 2012)

jack_burton said:


> One certain type of value per bath, until you finally end up with the gold.


Makes a great story. Too bad it doesn't work that way.

Harold


----------



## nickvc (Mar 22, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> jack_burton said:
> 
> 
> > One certain type of value per bath, until you finally end up with the gold.
> ...


 

:shock: :roll:


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 22, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > Every one on the forum keeps "trade secrets" of one type or another.
> ...



I apologize for including you in that, Harold. I know you have no secrets. However, you're probably alone in that.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 22, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> jack_burton said:
> 
> 
> > One certain type of value per bath, until you finally end up with the gold.
> ...



There is an old confusing youtube video that seemingly did that. We have discussed it before. Like Harold said, it just doesn't work that way. The video doesn't show about 90% of what they actually did.


----------



## jack_burton (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm not arguing either way, obviously Harold and GSP have forgotten more about PMR than I will probably ever know. Clearly,I was just throwing an idea out there for what someone might think to do large scale, since the thread had seemed to move in the directions of people guessing. No need to kick me in the junk for it. :lol:


----------



## Geo (Mar 22, 2012)

IF it were mine,and IF i wanted to do it myself.i would find a way to remove the stainless from the braze. i would do a manual extraction on as much stainless as possible.i know a couple of electrolytic processes that will remove stainless, the trick would be to figure out which one would remove the stainless and leave the braze intact.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Mar 22, 2012)

jack_burton said:


> I'm not arguing either way, obviously Harold and GSP have forgotten more about PMR than I will probably ever know. Clearly,I was just throwing an idea out there for what someone might think to do large scale, since the thread had seemed to move in the directions of people guessing. No need to kick me in the junk for it. :lol:



Please don't take it personally. Usually, when I post, about 90% of what I say is directed to the forum and not to the individual. I was thinking of that certain misleading youtube video that tripped up some people before. Along with Harold, I wanted to nip it in the bud. You'll know it if Harold or I really mean it personally. Some ideas just won't work.


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 22, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > goldsilverpro said:
> ...


I agree, and, to be fair, rightly so. I have nothing to lose, unlike others, who may still by trying to make a living. It's only natural for a guy to protect his hard earned knowledge, when disclosure offers risk of competition. 

When I was actively refining, I didn't disclose information. When I was approached, I set the cost high---and was handsomely rewarded for doing so. 

Harold


----------



## AztekShine (Mar 22, 2012)

Looks like I will be doing a lot of studying to figure this out! 

I believe I got enough smarts to do it.


----------

