# For those with complaints about the board



## Harold_V (Jan 18, 2014)

I've had more than my fill of bleeding heart individuals who don't appear to understand the reason I've become so damned cantankerous. 

To help put in to perspective my rather harsh treatment of unruly readers, please take note of the dates the sticky posts were placed on the board, the posts detailing what is and what is not permissible on this board. 

For years, we've allowed readers to do as they wish, but all too many of them have not used the required wisdom to keep this board from degrading to a mess it had become when I posted the restrictions. I did so because it has been my experience in life that if one does not self regulate, regulation via rules will be set in place by others, and they may or may not be to one's liking. 

I do not mean to be a harsh ruler--but I also have no intentions of standing by while ill mannered individuals ruin this board for those who have honored and uphelp our simple rules. They deserve more than to have outsiders come to the forum with their disrespectful ways, diminishing the value of the time they spend here. 

My brief absence from the board, prior to posting those stickies, clearly displayed how this board needs strict regulation, as we appear to attract a disproportionate number of folks with an entitlement attitude, with an even more troubling lack of manners and common sense. Interestingly, in my more than ten years of moderating another board, all who have been banned can be counted on one hand, yet it hasn't been uncommon for two individuals to be banned in one day on this board. That, to me, is a clear sign that we are attracting a rather distasteful type of person, although that comes as no surprise. 

The vast majority of our readers are very well mannered, and appear to uphold our simple rules. For them, I am eternally grateful. For the others, it may be only a matter of time until we bump heads, but bump heads we will, unless there is a change in attitude. I DO NOT intend to let up with the whip. If anything, I will become more unreasonable as I see a lack of willingness to cooperate. 

For those who appear to appreciate what I try to do for this board, thank you. For those who continue to find fault, be on your best behavior, as I am now looking for reason to boot you from the board. Consider this fair warning. I will tolerate no more foolishness. 

Harold


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## Woodworker1997 (Jan 18, 2014)

Harold,

This post was needed and reasonable. 
Let the whipings begin.

Derek.


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## maynman1751 (Jan 18, 2014)

Well said and to the point.......as usual! Thank You Harold!


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## Palladium (Jan 18, 2014)

I can see both sides to any argument. I believe what the readers fail to understand is that actions and reasons that are taken on the board are not always as clear cut as one would think. Believe it or not Harold is in a position that one cannot view as either right nor wrong as far as decisions because you will never please all the people all the time. If you think Harold is bad about banning people and being brash then you sure wouldn't have wanted to be around when i had my finger on the button. Of course i still never managed to top Butcher and ban everybody, but i did my fair share. :twisted: In the early days of this forum when spammers where as common as roaches and we dealt with the likes of everybody from Sue to Megan Rose and Gold digger to Doctor Bob had it not been for the work that was done defending this forum it would have turned into exactly what Harold is talking about right now. Hell that's the reason i got banned my first time was because me and Harold had a dust up about what we though was appropriate behavior we both exhibited in doing our jobs. Funny thing was looking back on it now i can see that we were both right. Him a little more than me because even though i didn't know it i was learning a little wisdom from a first hand source! If people would just listen to their elders more their is a wealth of knowledge to be gained. Doing the job that is required to protect this board is not easy at all, believe you me! The ones who do so consider it an honor as well as a burden to bear. Simply put they " Believe in the mission " and are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. We intrust them with that mission and trust that the actions they execute will always be in the best interest of the BOARD and not the GROUP. The group will change one day in the future and does everyday for that fact, but the board in essence is something that will pass the test of time to carry on long after we are gone. To give them that power is to trust! To question that authority is to weaken. Knowledge and wisdom are two very different things and to govern from a stand point of wisdom is one that is sure to not be recognized even by the most knowledgeable people with the best of intentions. I trust Harold's actions even though i may not always agree with his delivery. If i didn't agree you would see me leading the dam charge that seems to be trying to manifest it's self somehow. I watch things like a cat around here. Harold's made his rational argument for what he has done and i have to say i agree with him 100%. Now that being said there are two ways this is going to go down and i believe we all know what they are. We can get back to refining and understand where all this stands or people can get mad, upset, banned or what ever and then we can all get back to refining anyway, but the point remains that things work a certain way around here and things are better off for it. I'm more of a freedom man myself, but things work great around here and if it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## chlaurite (Jan 19, 2014)

I absolutely understand the need for a forum to have rules, and some enforcement thereof.

I can't help but notice, however, that you zealously enforce rules that the actual forum owner violates on a regular basis.

And I have no problem with that. His board, his rules, he can ignore them as he sees fit.

But at the same time, doesn't it at least make you wonder, if perhaps he means most of them as suggestions for keeping the peace, rather than zero-tolerance "RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH" style rules?

Believe it or not, I agree with you more often than I disagree with you. But you can't just pretend the modern world we *both* inhabit doesn't exist.


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## Palladium (Jan 19, 2014)

The modern world doesn't exist in cyber space it exist in reality and this is not OUR reality! If the story teller wants to change the rules those are his rules to change or deny to follow. If people don't like the story line then they can write their own book with their own characters. Just the fact that you felt the need to reply shows the truth of the argument.


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## Harold_V (Jan 19, 2014)

chlaurite said:


> But at the same time, doesn't it at least make you wonder, if perhaps he means most of them as suggestions for keeping the peace, rather than zero-tolerance "RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH" style rules?


Can I safely assume that you failed to read my comments in regards to my minor leave of the board? 
We were being inundated by posts from individuals who had not the least idea of the concept of refining, demanding instant gratification, and getting their backs up when they were told to start reading. 

I (along with almost all others on this board) have patiently provide detailed guidance in achieving that end, but it was becoming more and more obvious, at least to me, that the more we handed out, the more was expected. That, truly, was a waste of the time of anyone with a life, for getting answers to questions that are not understood by the individual asking serves no real purpose, for the answer will make no more sense. Too that end, it was suggested that those with an interest start reading, so they'd gain an understanding of the basics of refining. Seems that was way too much to expect from those who chose to see their time as more valuable to them than mine may be to me. 

The butt kicking that has gone on will continue, and I'm going to lower the bar, so that those on the fringe will be eliminated as well. This forum isn't for the pleasure of deadbeats---it's for use by those who have an earnest desire to learn refining, and I'm not about to stand by while morons ruin it for everyone. 

Do we have an understanding? 

If not, you're the next one to go. 

The question is not rhetorical. I expect a reply. 

Harold

Edit:
If you find fault with the owner of this board, you, sir, have already outlived your welcome here. I expect that you're going to address him with proper respect, and that you're going to appreciate the gift you have been given in being allowed to enter his private domain. Do keep in mind, it is his effort and wallet that provides you with this venue.

*I took note of the less than wise comments directed towards me in another thread by this individual. He is history. *


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## Geo (Jan 19, 2014)

i see this argument moving from one thread to another. its like watching a train wreck in slow motion. this type of discussion will not end well and peoples feelings are going to be hurt. i believe i have said this before, should Noxx ask Harold to allow certain things, im sure that Harold would abide by that. so far as im aware, Noxx has not done this. there seems to be a missing point here, Harold is just doing what Jean would like for him to do. this is somewhat like killing the messenger. 

as for me personally, i believe that such a huge library of actual experience such as this needs the kind of structure that Harold enforces along with the other moderators. people complain about there being too much stuff to go through in search of a particular topic. the only way to curb useless post is by restricting people from posting redundant questions. we all have seen them "how do i get gold off computer boards?" or one of my favorites "how do i refine gold?". even replying to this adds to the clutter. honestly i see this as people getting frustrated because they believe they see an injustice and want to try something to help it not knowing that they are aiming these frustrations at the wrong person. im not at all saying to fill Noxx's mailbox full of mail but he would be the one to change the rules.


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## Platdigger (Jan 19, 2014)

I like your analogy Geo "a train wreck in slow motion"
I had to laugh.
And off the track they go!


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## moose7802 (Jan 19, 2014)

Just curious why do you want to stir the pot? Why not just leave it alone? It does you no good. Just my $.02

Tyler

Edit: 
Well now my post doesn't make any sense but there was a post before mine from a member who was apparently banned


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## niteliteone (Jan 19, 2014)

notchlaurite said:


> Wow, you REALLY fear me, don't you, Harold?
> 
> Sad.
> 
> ...


I guess "Intelligence" is a trait that doesn't run in the family :shock:


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## Palladium (Jan 19, 2014)

Obviously he thinks he's cute. Wait until i call his isp provider and have his internet access shut down. Are you really that stupid dude? We live in the day and age of the internet. Everything you do is traced and now that you were banned and chose to come back that can be viewed as aggressive behavior and could land you answering a whole lot of questions for some really stupid things on your part. Are you really that dumb?


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## Harold_V (Jan 19, 2014)

This individual doesn't appear to understand that his comments are no longer welcome on this board. 

I do not fear him, nor do I fear a skunk. I simply do not enjoy the odor. 

Ralph, please do me the favor of filing a formal complaint. Here's some information to aid you in the quest:

#
# ARIN WHOIS data and services are subject to the Terms of Use
# available at: https://www.arin.net/whois_tou.html
#


#
# Query terms are ambiguous. The query is assumed to be:
# "n 70.192.1.170"
#
# Use "?" to get help.
#

#
# The following results may also be obtained via:
# http://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=70.19 ... xt=netref2
#

NetRange: 70.192.0.0 - 70.223.255.255
CIDR: 70.192.0.0/11
OriginAS: 
NetName: WIRELESSDATANETWORK
NetHandle: NET-70-192-0-0-1
Parent: NET-70-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
RegDate: 2004-06-10
Updated: 2012-03-02
Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-70-192-0-0-1


OrgName: Cellco Partnership DBA Verizon Wireless
OrgId: CLLC
Address: 180 Washington Valley Road
City: Bedminster
StateProv: NJ
PostalCode: 07039
Country: US
RegDate: 2001-10-01
Updated: 2014-01-14
Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/CLLC

OrgAbuseHandle: ABUSE716-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Abuse
OrgAbusePhone: +1-908-306-7000 
OrgAbuseEmail: [email protected]
OrgAbuseRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ABUSE716-ARIN

OrgTechHandle: ABUSE3808-ARIN
OrgTechName: AbuseTech
OrgTechPhone: +1-908-306-7000 
OrgTechEmail: [email protected]
OrgTechRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ABUSE3808-ARIN


#
# ARIN WHOIS data and services are subject to the Terms of Use
# available at: https://www.arin.net/whois_tou.html
#


Thanks, friend. 

Harold


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## Palladium (Jan 19, 2014)

Pull his isp number and pm them to me. I'll hook him right up!


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## Harold_V (Jan 19, 2014)

Palladium said:


> Pull his isp number and pm them to me. I'll hook him right up!


Posted above, as an afterthought. 

Thanks, Ralph.

Harold


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## Palladium (Jan 19, 2014)

I remember back in the early days of the net when i was doing some spamming. I mean really spamming! I had my isp shut me down because of a compliant. There was no warning call, no question phase, nothing. They just flip the switch and you go dark. Then you get to call them up and plead your case while they investigate. The whole time you stay shut down. You don't have a right to object! Only to explain! That was 20 years ago, i couldn't even imagine what a pain in the *** it must be today.


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## niteliteone (Jan 19, 2014)

Hopefully his foolishness has come to an end. His last post (deleted) before this one was totally uncalled for and fully justifies what happens next. :roll:


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## NoIdea (Jan 19, 2014)

Bravo Gentalmen, I was in a grump before this thread, now i'm a happy chappy. :lol: 

As for the rest of us, i suggest we do some more reading.

Thanks Harold, this was well overdue for some.

Cheers Deano


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## galenrog (Jan 19, 2014)

Being a member of several forums, many of which have little in the way of moderators who wish to protect the integrity of their board, I am constantly reminded that GRF is the best run, and best moderated. 

Many members, moderators or not, strive to keep threads on topic and try to avoid tangents that have frequently proved to be less than useful. I appreciate that.

In my observation, which is of course tainted by my opinion, is that the narrower the focus of an online forum, the easier it is to maintain an orderly structure. I could bring up examples of poorly moderated forums, but most that I would cite are either political or religious in nature and I do not want to take this thread on any volatile tangents. 

Also, the insistence that members read, study, and understand Hoke is high on the list of items that keep the forum clean. While many new members are told to do this, few do. Those that do seem to either flourish or soon realize they are in over their heads. By understanding Hoke, I can better understand the purpose of this forum, the recovery and refining of precious metals. 

As far as the entitlement attitude that seems permeate the first several posts of many new members, I find that moderators and members alike are very good at explaining why this attitude is both wrong and dangerous. Some are more blunt than others.

Lastly, I thank Noxx for creating this forum. I thank Harold and all other moderators for the wonderful job they do maintaining the integrity and focus of this forum.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jan 19, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> My brief absence from the board, prior to posting those stickies, clearly displayed how this board needs strict regulation, as we appear to attract a disproportionate number of folks with an entitlement attitude, with an even more troubling lack of manners and common sense.





> We were being inundated by posts from individuals who had not the least idea of the concept of refining, demanding instant gratification, and getting their backs up when they were told to start reading.


I usually try to stay out of these discussions, because they're not the reason I come to this forum, but I couldn't agree more with these comments. As a daily reader here for the last 2 years, I saw a big downturn in the forum while Harold was recharging his batteries. 

In addition to the attitudes that started to prevail, I also saw that misinformation was being posted regularly and although some of it was challenged, there was no final word by someone with the years of experience to back it up. I'll say again, that if it becomes nothing but a chore for the veterans to read through endless repetitions of the same old questions, they will disengage from the forum. I would hate to lose the experience of Harold, GSP, 4metals, Lazersteve, Lou, butcher, Pat and many others. If the truly experienced continue to drift away, I fear the forum will become a discussion between members who have won their experience from youtube. If there is a choice to be made between members being offended because Harold scolds or bans a member, or losing his guidance on this forum, I'll choose the former everytime.

Dave


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## RikkiRicardo (Jan 19, 2014)

This is for all the people that is speaking about GRF in the correct way and supporting the board
the way this board is being run i thank you.
The people that is running this board is doing there best
This is the best in many ways others boards are garbage 
Why is it that the people that want to learn stay here they have have learned and also have helped others to learn 
we can name many persons to this we have people that have brought there time with videos step by step Demonstration and many other things
that has helped many.
if i was to count how this board has help many persons i could not say everyone knows who they are and I'm sure they have helped others also

Thanks again for having all this great information
I just got back from Prague great place and great beer
I just hate seeing people trying to change something that is not broken if you think that this board is broken please look at your life.
or get a life and listen to your benefit because this place is where you will learn learning is a never ending story.
I also speak for Lucia that is also a member 
Noxx when i get back to Canada i will visit you very soon but wait til summer It's cold there lol 

Romania with Love
RikkiRicardo & Lucia


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## Harold_V (Jan 20, 2014)

Ok, I'd like to think this issue has been put to rest. I thank all of you for your understanding while we had to go through what shouldn't have happened, but when we live in a society where manners are not a consideration, it should come as no surprise. 

I was contacted twice by PM by this individual, one of them loaded with profanity. The second one I'd like to address, so it is copied here for you to peruse. I would like to share my thoughts, which is the reason for my posting the PM for all to read. 



> Message subject: Sad... Really sad.
> From: phred99
> Sent: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:06 am
> To: Harold_V
> ...



Well, quite frankly, not all that great. If you knew me as a person you might understand. I prefer that we all get along. However, in order for that to happen, all parties in question must share the same objective. Mine is, and has been, to see that the board is free of rancor, to ensure that it stays on topic, and to not allow the monkeys to run the zoo. That, of course, implies that my attitude towards readers is that they are the monkeys, but I'm confident that those who are here for the right reason will understand that it is directed towards those who lack manners and have no respect for civility. They prefer their particular type of mayhem in lieu of being a part of civilized society where all members give up a few rights, so the rights of all can be preserved. That is, and has been, my objective in my duties in overseeing this board. 



> You won't hear from me again. Make no mistake though, I'll keep reading.


Well, nothing would please me more (with one exception, which I'll explain) than to discover you continue to follow this forum. A huge amount of effort has been exerted here, by all, to ensure that the board has credibility and operates in a mannerly fashion. Above all other sources on the net, where refining is concerned, there is not a more credible and reliable source of information. It is here, free for the taking, for all who understand that we hope to preserve a polite environment on this board, and that disruptions that lead to pages of dialogue, none of which lends itself to refining, are not appreciated. 

What strikes me as being very sad is that you failed to understand that so long as you abide by the rules set forth, no one, including me, has an issue with your being here. All it takes is a cooperative attitude and an understanding that you don't make the rules, and that the rules apply to everyone, equally. 

It should have come as no surprise to you that there are individuals (myself included) who have been appointed to oversee the operation of the board, and that we do the job to which we have been assigned. All of us understand that without readers, there is no forum. We also understand that without guidance and cooperation, we have chaos, as was shown in this thread. 

When an individual is banned from this site, it is presumed that he has no interest in being a member, as those who do tend to abide by the rules, even when they may not agree. It's their way of showing respect for those who "foot the bill" and keep the board viable. 

I have taken none of this personally, in spite of some pretty raunchy language, both posted on the board (deleted) and by PM, directed towards me in both instances. In fact, my feelings in that regard would be strong enough to allow this individual to rejoin the board, although a demonstration of remorse would be expected. A contrite apology could go a long ways towards achieving that end. 

Our purpose, here, is not to separate ourselves from those with the right attitude, it's to preserve that which we have worked so hard to create. We can't (and won't) allow it to be undone by those who don't respect our efforts. 

Harold


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## solar_plasma (Jan 20, 2014)

@claurite

Harold wrote:


> In fact, my feelings in that regard would be strong enough to allow this individual to rejoin the board, although a demonstration of remorse would be expected. A contrite apology could go a long ways towards achieving that end.



Claurite, I really think you should calm down and when you have done so, you should seize the proffered hand.

Most of you americans love your firemen and soldiers, both are only effective because of their discipline. No ship will sail well without a captain and no library runs smooth without a librarian. You would never try to run those in a base-democratic way, would you? All those examples I mentioned have their own rules, the only matter of choice is to join or to leave, the rest are rules that are to follow. The mods are the ones to assert those rules as well as they can. The only authority, the mods are obliged to, is the admin, - not to you and not to me! Power? - Yes, indeed, they have power and they have to use it. What is the problem? Do you have a problem with authority? ....I had....when I was 16!

I hope this helps some of you guys "with complaints" to think over it.


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## gold4mike (Jan 20, 2014)

solar_plasma,

Thank you for that post. I have been on the forum for quite some time and have always tried to stay away from controversy. I view this resource as a gift and would never intentionally do anything to jeopardize my access to it.

Your analogous examples are "spot on" for me and I agree with your post completely.


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