# Hcl/cl problem



## Axlrod2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Ok guys I think I did everything right. Used 60ml of hcl and 20 ml of bleach. Put all that in a beaker along with little under a ounce of pins and a little bit of foils from ram. Left it sit for couple of days. Stirring everyday. Used heat for about a hour reduced to 60ml. Mixed the hcl with hopefully gold in it with 80ml of water with two tablespoons of smb. Been sitting for a couple of days. Tested with stannous and the light brown to dark brown on the cotton swab went to a bright yellow. Why? And what happen to the gold? The smb is now on the bottom if the beaker. What went wrong guys? I know from looking at the pins that the gold is gone but not all the pins. Is there too little gold to bring out or what? Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## Axlrod2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Forgot to mention the water was distilled water from the store. Smb is new so is stannous.


----------



## butcher (Aug 11, 2012)

It sounds like you dissolved gold then cemented the gold back out of solution onto copper (pins).

You need some more study on how to process.

Remove base metals before you dissolve your gold.


----------



## Axlrod2 (Aug 11, 2012)

So instead of letting the pins sit in the hcl/cl I should let the solution run over the pins?


----------



## butcher (Aug 11, 2012)

No that would not do any good.

We dissolve away base metals (but do not put the gold in solution), the base metal solution is rinsed away from the gold (powders, foils), before we put gold into solution.

Read up some on the reactivity series of metals, Hokes book as you read what she teaches; you will begin to see she removes the base metals before dissolving the gold. 

Test your current solution if any sign of gold from the stannous test, (a brown after SMB is most likely a false positive if you used excess SMB), if you see a violet color, the gold can be recovered by cementing on a clean copper buss bar, most of your gold is most likely still with the un-dissolved pins (cemented to that copper remaining from the pins), you can dissolve the copper from those pins in acid peroxide, (caution do not use too strong of Hydrogen peroxide the idea is to dissolve copper not the gold), once you get all of the copper into solution, you should be left with black to brown powder and possibly some gold foils, wash this well before dissolving this gold (especially if any solder was on the pins, using Harold's technique (to get the gold shining) can help tremendously, the powders may contain lead chloride from solder, which is soluble in boiling hot water.

If gold is in solution (the gold is missing electrons),(oxidized), if this solution comes into contact with an elemental metal (having all of its electrons), and the metal higher in the reactivity series of metals (more reactive), this more reactive metal will donate its free electrons (oxidize) to the gold (the gold now having all its electrons will cement out of solution (reduced) as a metal (brown to black powder), and the more reactive metal copper in this case now is missing electrons (oxidized) so it goes into solution as a dissolved salt (Copper chloride in this case).


----------



## Axlrod2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Ok butcher I see what you mean. My first batch of hcl/cl does have a green color. I do have a dish of hcl/periode I am using for the ram. In the future for pins I'll use the sulfuric acid cell


----------



## butcher (Aug 11, 2012)

sounds like you have a plan.


----------



## Sjeepboy (Aug 12, 2012)

Will muratic acid by itself dissolve base metals? Or do I need to add another chemical. Also what ratios should I use if another chemical is needed?


----------



## maynman1751 (Aug 12, 2012)

Sjeepboy said:


> Will muratic acid by itself dissolve base metals? Or do I need to add another chemical. Also what ratios should I use if another chemical is needed?


Very slightly and not very well. Use 3 parts HCl to 1 part 3% hydrogen peroxide(H2O2). Add a bubbler to supply oxygen and low heat to assist the process.


----------



## butcher (Aug 12, 2012)

From doing a little reading about the reactivity series of metals, you will find some metals are very reactive (they can react with water) (K, Na, Li, Ca), some metal a little lower on the reactivity list will react with acids, these are above hydrogen in the list (Mg, Al, Zn, Fe, Sn, Pb,) as well as the metals that we listed above), then we also see the metals that can react with oxygen (Cu, Hg, Ag as well as those above), then we see metals that are very nonreactive like gold and platinum group.

also some metals are so reactive (in a certain substance like air or a certain acid that they build a protective layer or passivated layer, this oxidized layer protects the metal from dissolving further with that acid or substance the protective shell of oxidized metal keeps acid or substance from attacking new metal, some metals like iron also build an oxidized shell but like iron the rust layer flakes off or allows acid or air and water to get under this layer and attack more metal.


From this information we see we can dissolve several metals into acid, without using an oxidizer,
we Know that copper will not dissolve in an acid like HCl, but it is reactive to oxygen, and the copper oxide will dissolve in HCl, but we also know if the oxidizer is too strong it can dissolve gold along with the other base metals (which would be a mistake),

So here you see why we may use straight HCl on a material to dissolve the tin from the solder, make the lead a powder of lead chloride (soluble in boiling hot water), and to remove other base metals like aluminum zinc or iron, leaving us copper and gold, which we may choose to dissolve the copper with a copper chloride leach (AKA acid peroxide solution), leaving us gold foils.


Something to add to this is,

While your studying the reactivity series you will notice how a metal higher on the reactivity list will replace another metal lower on the list which is dissolved into solution, example if you have silver dissolved in solution , how adding a piece of copper metal to the solution will cement out silver as a metal powder.

Also if you have metal salts, they can have certain solubility's, knowing these can be very helpful which salt is soluble in water, acid or what substance, how soluble is it (how much will dissolve into this solution), and if the solution needs heat how much more will it dissolve into solution at what temperature, or can we remove a salt from solution by cooling off our solution, this can also be very helpful separating one metal salt from another.

So yes you can dissolve metals in an acid wash alone (depending on what metal or acid we are talking about).

Temperature can also be an important factor in our processes.


----------



## Axlrod2 (Aug 13, 2012)

So butcher I can dissolve the copper then filter out the gold. And the copper will stay with the solution?


----------



## butcher (Aug 14, 2012)

Yes, you can dissolve copper but not the gold, and keep the copper in solution, either filtering, or better yet letting gold settle and decant solution from the gold.

We can do this with nitric acid, nitric acid will not dissolve gold, but will attack copper, the gold would be left as flakes or powders, the copper would be in solution as a copper nitrate solution, (nitric acid dissolves most of the base metals), and they form nitrate solutions of the copper or base metals, nitric acid will also dissolve silver.
Tin (from solder) is a big mess in nitric acid.

Another way we can dissolve copper and not the gold, the gold in flakes foils or powders, the copper as copper chloride solution, is by using the copper chloride leach (acid peroxide leach), using HCl with a small addition of 3% Hydrogen peroxide, a fish tank air pump can be used as a source of oxygen after the initial reaction is started, (instead of adding H2O2 later), this works well for thin copper like gold plated memory finger foils, pins or larger copper it is a slow process but can be done using this method, solder or tin is best kept out of the process (can pre-treat with straight HCl to remove solder), (if solder is involved the lead forms a white precipitant lead chloride powder tin will slightly dissolve into HCl as stannous chloride making filtering a problem), also since we do not want to dissolve gold we do not want to use a more concentrated solution of hydrogen peroxide which could put gold into solution, copper can also form a white powder copper I chloride, if the HCl in the leach is low, adding a little more HCl will put the copper back into solution as copper II chloride, for more details see the general reaction list (in the general chat section) also follow the links provided in the general reaction list, Laser Steve's web site is a great resource to learn from.

Then we also have the concentrated sulfuric cell which can de-plate gold from the copper, here if done properly copper does not dissolve but gold plating is removed from the copper (also found in the general reaction list and Steve's web site).


----------



## Anarchy618 (Feb 17, 2018)

How long does the process take when using a copper buss bar in auric chloride to drop the gold? Just a general question based on similar experience with same problem? Generally how long should you leave the copper buss bar in solution?


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarchy618 said:


> Generally how long should you leave the copper buss bar in solution?


Until the solution no longer tests positive for values.

Dave


----------



## Anarchy618 (Feb 24, 2018)

Is there any way you could post a reference picture of any powdered gold collected after buss bar drop in auric chloride? And when I used this method I ended up having to scrape this stuff off the copper pipes which kinda shelled itself on the pipes & then needed to be crushed up into a dark reddish brown powder. I just want to make sure I did not collect any unnecessary elements. Would you please be kind enough to quickly explain & show a pic? It would be extremely helpful for me.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Feb 25, 2018)

Is anyone wise enough to know if the picture of my powder looks right?


----------



## kernels (Feb 25, 2018)

If that is the cement that came off the solid Copper then it will contain all metals less reactive than Copper with probably a little bit of Copper contamination. Did you clean the Copper before putting it in the solution ? 

Usually at this point I would re-refine and drop with SMB to get very pure Gold. 

Once you have powder like this to work with, re-refining is very easy, you can easily see as everything goes into solution and it is much easier to not overdo the Nitric acid.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 1, 2018)

Actually I should have been more detailed in my post. The processes I use are as follows 1st (hcl + peroxide with an air pump line feeding in bubbles for oxygen for at least 5-9 days depending) then for 2nd part (I use hcl + bleach to dissolve) then I'll do an smb drop (using stump out) and/or also use copper to make sure I get it all. To be honest, I really enjoy doing the drops with copper because I like the process off scraping all the cement off after letting the pieces "air dry" and then crushing the flakes up into the powder. I would actually love trying the aqua regia process but haven't had any successful attempts trying to create the nitric acid. I have plant fertilizers, but can't seem to produce the right results. Anyway I digress, most of that powder in my picture resulted from me scraping dried cement off copper & crushing. But there's also different amounts mixed from other smb drops that I've been adding all to what you see in my pic. That being said, what do you think?


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 1, 2018)

I would love & could also use any advice on why I always end up using too much bleach, which always ends in there being NO reaction after dissolving & dropping in smb for precipitation. Nothings more of a bigger bummer than getting to everyone's favorite part and NOT getting a reaction due to high amounts of chlorine that need to be evapped off. So I began using copper after & because of that annoying problem.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Mar 1, 2018)

One of the advantages of using bleach as your oxidizer instead of nitric acid is that the chlorine from the bleach will dissipate on its own given some time and or heat. Many people leave there solutions for a day before trying to precipitate their gold. Others will heat the solution to drive off the excess chlorine a little faster. Are you allowing enough time before you try to precipitate?

What kind of bleach are you using?

Dave


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 2, 2018)

No I was not really giving sufficient time before trying to drop and as far as the bleach goes I've attached a picture.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 2, 2018)

I have kind of an "off topic" question about crucibles with an inquiry about what process you believe I should use to re-refine my powder for better purity. Questions are: which process for re-refinementioned do you think i should use? (bear in mind I have no acess to nitric) & as far as when I'm ready to melt my purified powder goes, would I be able to just use ANY ceramic dish/device if I have no crucible. Generally I'd really like to learn what kind of "emergency " type crucibles I could use. For example would the ceramic box I've attached in the picture work? And would it need to be glazed?


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 2, 2018)

A melting dish costs less than $2, is it really worth it to save on that cost?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quartz-Melt-Dishes-Pot-Crucible-Casting-Gold-Silver-Platinum-Refining-White/173100387078?epid=14013225037&hash=item284d964b06:g:hkAAAOSwI~taXKhT

Göran


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 2, 2018)

I kno it's super cheap but I'm one of those few stubborn people who you'll ever meet who has a burning desire & need to learn how to do everything myself and live a very frugal lifestyle. So it's more of an itch to scratch than a need to buy one online (which I do indeed plan on doing asap). So I guess my question was based off of the way I live & just a general curiosity about alternatives to the concept.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 2, 2018)

I would love to hear what re-refinement process one thinks I should use for my powder from previous pic? What route should I go?


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 2, 2018)

g_axelsson said:


> A melting dish costs less than $2, is it really worth it to save on that cost?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quartz-Melt-Dishes-Pot-Crucible-Casting-Gold-Silver-Platinum-Refining-White/173100387078?epid=14013225037&hash=item284d964b06:g:hkAAAOSwI~taXKhT
> 
> Göran



Goran, thanks for that link, I like it & will purchase it.


----------



## Shark (Mar 2, 2018)

The dish Goran posted the link to is as frugal as it gets. I have one of those dish's that I have used for over 4 years. All I have done is melt borax in it to clean it up some and put it right back to active use. I have to admit mine was a bit cheaper as it was given to me when I first started getting serious about refining.


----------



## anachronism (Mar 2, 2018)

As per Goran and Sharks post. I use those things and I think you'll agree that my forum picture is "ok." Those bars are all over 100g each and they are melted in those crucibles. Enjoy 8) 8) 

At tip - -buy ten. It's worth it I promise. 

Jon


----------



## nickvc (Mar 3, 2018)

When re refining any gold powders I always suggest using different oxidizers and precipitants where ever possible. As you used Hcl and bleach first time try Hcl and peroxide or create poormans using Hcl and nitrates and perhaps copperas as the precipitatant. While talking about getting clean gold to melt remember that filtering is as important as any other part of the processes to ensure clean product as is good rinsing after precipitation.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 5, 2018)

Thanks for the good advice.


----------



## rickzeien (Mar 6, 2018)

Great discussions. Learned something new. Thanks to all.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 13, 2018)

So.... I bought that cruble & literally just got done with the 1st melt. The crucible is awesome, problem is my mapp gas melt. Check this out & please, please, pretty pretty please someone explain to me how my gold powder melt turned into this hot mess???? Because it definitely does not look like what it's supposed to be like. Ughhh, I have a headache. Lol


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 13, 2018)

So.... I bought that cruble & literally just got done with the 1st melt. The crucible is awesome, problem is my mapp gas melt. Check this out & please, please, pretty pretty please someone explain to me how my gold powder melt turned into this hot mess???? Because it definitely does not look like what it's supposed to be like. Ughhh, I have a headache. Lol


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 13, 2018)

rickzeien said:


> Great discussions. Learned something new. Thanks to all.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Mar 13, 2018)

Assuming it was clean gold, it looks like it didn't melt. Usually the problem is that the heat escapes from the dish faster than it's being put in. You need to insulate around the dish so the heat doesn't escape. Can you provide a picture of your set up when you're trying to melt? What is the melting dish sitting on when you try to melt? It needs to be something that is an insulator. That's my guess anyway.

Dave


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 13, 2018)

It looks like you have tried to melt iron oxide or copper oxide.

Does it dissolve in HCl? Does the HCl turn into a colored liquid if you mix it with your powder?

Recap the process from the beginning to the end, step by step. How much material and what did you start with, what did you do to end up here, how much powder did you get?

Göran


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 14, 2018)

Well, to answer your question about how I ended up here in as few words as possible I'd tell you all that powder came from small amounts here & there from ceramic plates, gold chain, ewaste foils, gold charms, plated pins and a few ceramic figurines (past 2-3 months now). I used hcl + peroxide w/ an air line supplying oxygen for recovery then I used hcl + bleach to dissolve & refine in all the different processes. But since I've been experimenting with different methods for precipitation I'd say half could have been dropped using smb and the other half I cut & flattened copper pipes for the "cementation process".


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 14, 2018)

And to answer the other question, when I poured the hcl over that powder it made the solution turn blacker than the ace of spades in a deck of playing cards. My powder even looks extremely dark & blackish at the moment now. As I've been washing and rinsing since yesterday evening with hcl and then water (back & forth).


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 14, 2018)

So..... whadya guys think now?? Im super anxious to hear responses or requests for any more additional information in order to form your conclusions.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 14, 2018)

Oh and before I get too far ahead with my powder I'm taking this picture where as we speak I am breaking up my re-refined powder which as I mentioned earlier is as you can see from before & after (ish.. in progress, lol) pic a completely different colour resolution than before the forums very well recommended washing routine that I've been applying off & on since yest evening. I wanted to use this pic b/c in my opinion I think my porcelain drying bowls smooth white background gives suck a nice representation of color difference compared to the small rubbermaid container I use to store it in. And I really need you guys to get the best visual so I can get the best advice.


----------



## kernels (Mar 14, 2018)

For that re-refined batch, did you use SMB to drop the Gold or cement on Copper ? The color does not seem quite right to me, but I have had darker drops before.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

I haven't technically "re-refined" that particular batch as of yet. I assumed (even though my momma always says that "assumption is the mother of all fu*#ups, it's never wise to assume David" lol) I still assumed the intense 24 hr washing routine i just finished putting that batch through alternating with hcl / water would have removed any impurities. That batch was made with an amount here & there being added over the last few months. Id say I used smb to drop at least half and also copper pipes cut & flattened for "cementation". Do you think I should take what I have now and re-refine with hcl + clorox since I technically just completed the 1st phase of "recovery" (so to speak, for arguments sake) with that long drawn out wash I just gave it??


----------



## kernels (Mar 15, 2018)

Honestly, it wouldn't hurt to re-refine and do a nice clean drop. If you do a good quality re-refine, your Gold will easily be 99%+

I see you are in the US, any reason you are not getting a little bit of Nitric acid and going the traditional way? bleach works, but it is just not the best tool for the job.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

Here's my new setup. I used a portland + plaster cement mix I made to mold this insulation jacket to house my ceramic crucible while retaining the heat from my torch & my hotplate keeping everything hot. I set my electric hotplate on full blast and let the heat distribute itself evenly for 60 mins give or take before I attempt a melt (and so far I've only melted some scrap silver using this setup & it worked great). What do you think about it as far as improvements or anything else advice wise?


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

New setup


----------



## kernels (Mar 15, 2018)

I haven't read the whole thread, but assuming that you are using a MAPP gas torch, that will work great. I have melted up to 50g at a time with my crucible just sitting in a little 'oven' I made by arranging a few firebricks. MAPP gas works fine, you just need to keep the heat contained if you want to melt more than about 10g at a time. You can practice by melting some Copper into a ball, if you can melt Copper you can melt Gold


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

And Kernels, yes I live about 45 mins from new york in town called pomona. The reason I don't go the traditional way (yet) is because I am having trouble obtaining the ingredients to make & synthesize the nitric. I have been learning for the past several months and still do not yet have all the proper glassware you need for the lab. Turns out that not all glass can have a flame put to it without breaking. And as we all know, heat is an extremely important factor in chemistry experiments. As soon as I am able to purchase my distillation apparatus from amazon I'll be able to begin processing the nitric. Believe me when I say I'd much rather be using the aqua regia (kings water) process than dealing with the noxious chlorine odor from the bleach.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

kernels said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but assuming that you are using a MAPP gas torch, that will work great. I have melted up to 50g at a time with my crucible just sitting in a little 'oven' I made by arranging a few firebricks. MAPP gas works fine, you just need to keep the heat contained if you want to melt more than about 10g at a time. You can practice by melting some Copper into a ball, if you can melt Copper you can melt Gold



So are you saying I should make something to cover or contain the surface area more? Maybe something like this would work?


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

Anarchy618 said:


> kernels said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't read the whole thread, but assuming that you are using a MAPP gas torch, that will work great. I have melted up to 50g at a time with my crucible just sitting in a little 'oven' I made by arranging a few firebricks. MAPP gas works fine, you just need to keep the heat contained if you want to melt more than about 10g at a time. You can practice by melting some Copper into a ball, if you can melt Copper you can melt Gold
> ...


----------



## kernels (Mar 15, 2018)

That looks like it would be a pain to work with, and not really necessary, I just had some bricks around the back and sides of my crucible with the top and front open. You don't really have to overthink the melting, MAPP gas is easily up to the task, it just takes much longer if you have the crucible sitting completely in the open. 

When I started I just had the crucible sitting on a concrete floor and I still melted up to 10g at a time with no problem. 

You should not need any gear to 'make' Nitric acid, my understanding is that you can just buy it online and have it delivered in the US. It costs a bit more, but you only use a tiny amount of it with every batch. Just have a look in the chemicals section, there are some links to online sellers.

Some basic Chinese boro glassware is a must though, at $40 a gram you don't want to muck around with drinking glasses and canning bottles. It is saving a few dollars while risking a fortune.

Also no real reason for anything to be over a flame, your electric hotplate is the way to go. Just get some ceramic sheet (from a lab supply place) to go between the element and your beakers. Some people also use pyroceram baking trays between the element and beakers, that way if you have a breakage, the solution is contained in the dish.


----------



## Shark (Mar 15, 2018)

Here is a pretty good method for a mini furnace.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4323&p=39240&hilit=brick+furnace#p39240

A search for mini furnace, brick furnace will find many more results along the same lines.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 15, 2018)

Very good advice. Just curious about the mapp gas, how many melts do you get before it runs out? Or about how long will it last on fully open flame? Thank you kernels and shark both.


----------



## kernels (Mar 15, 2018)

I use the standard disposable MAPP gas canisters and they last a very long time. If you were melting 10g at a time, you would get many ounces out of a canister.


----------



## Shark (Mar 15, 2018)

While I use propane, I have no idea how much it can melt. I use an adapter and run a 20lb bottle.


----------



## rickzeien (Mar 15, 2018)

Propane and oxogen? What torch do you use?

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


----------



## Shark (Mar 16, 2018)

rickzeien said:


> Propane and oxogen? What torch do you use?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk



I can use mine with or without the oxygen. I use a propane regulator when working with the oxygen, and run it with no regulator when using a regular propane tip. When using the oxygen/propane combination I run a small Victor brand setup with a propane cutting tip. For cutting steel it is o.k. on the small stuff but works great on melting gold. I have yet to melt any silver other than a gram or two at a time. I do have a large oxygen/acetylene set that I use at times, but prefer the propane rigs for most refining, as I can adapt the propane to run my small furnace as well.


----------



## rickzeien (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks. I had wondered if a propane set up would work.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 16, 2018)

So here's what was supposed to be a gold button after I put the Mapp gas flame to it for give or take around 15 minutes. This is now what was the black powder from the previous pictures. I can't even tell you what I think it may or may not be and am hoping one of you can. Now bear in mind that this is the exact same stuff we've been discussing about throughout our discussions on this post. And I could really use the right answers (even if you need to yell at me about what I'm doing wrong & ruining all that gold) in order to fix this ugly & extremely heartbreaking error. I'm praying to be able to hear that I did not lose & am able to still recover that gold. Because it was alot of gold and more importantly alot of hard work. Let me digress & just show a picture & also tell you I had that crucible glowing red hot & that stuff just wouldn't melt. ?????????


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 16, 2018)

"All that gold" doesn't look like gold to me.

It looks like a mixture of metal oxides and you might use that map torch as much as you want, most oxides will not melt at those temperatures.

Göran


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 16, 2018)

Unless your gold powder looks something like this I would never go to a melt.



Re-dissolving, filtering, precipitating and washing can be done in hours or a day if you start with gold powder and not solid pieces.
Whenever I get one of those pesky dirty drops that never settles and looks like black ink, I decant most of the liquid, redissolve and precipitate in less than an hour, in the end it is faster than dealing with the original powder that never clump together.

Pure gold never turns black if it doesn't melt. It is still yellow. Pure gold also doesn't discolor your melting dish except for a purple stain from colloidal gold particles in the borax.

After melting a 50 g button re-refined gold with a LPG and air torch.


After melting a 4.5 g button, probably overheated it a bit when trying out an acetylene torch.



By the way, I don't see any shine from borax in your melting dish, did you season the dish with borax before melting?
MetalicMario, aka Golden child have some videos on seasoning the dish and melting gold powder.
https://www.youtube.com/user/metalicmario/videos

This is the setup I used to melt my 50 g button.


After it started to melt I covered it even more, the firebricks reflects the heat back onto the melt and it all went very smoothly.



Göran


----------



## Shark (Mar 16, 2018)

Beautiful job Göran !


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 16, 2018)

Anarchy618 said:


> And to answer the other question, when I poured the hcl over that powder it made the solution turn blacker than the ace of spades in a deck of playing cards. My powder even looks extremely dark & blackish at the moment now. As I've been washing and rinsing since yesterday evening with hcl and then water (back & forth).


Pure gold would never discolor HCl in that way. What you have is at least very contaminated.

Re-refine it since HCl can't just wash away all contaminants. The only reason you don't want to do that is because you know in your hearth that what you got isn't very pure but your mind won't let go of the thought of all of it being gold. When you finally come to grip with the thought that in every refining situation you only have the gold that is in the lot. Whatever you wish for, in the end it is all revealed in the melting dish. You can't fake a melt.

If you follow proper refining guidelines, even losses in filters and liquids will eventually be recovered, it just takes some time until you have enough filter paper or stock pot to recover your misplaced gold from.

Göran


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 16, 2018)

Shark said:


> Beautiful job Göran !



Thanks, it's from an old post. Just pulling some pictures from my archive.

Göran


----------



## rickzeien (Mar 17, 2018)

"Pure gold also doesn't discolor your melting dish except for a purple stain from colloidal gold particles in the borax."

Is this purple stain common from gold melt or only from gold powder precipitated from solution?




Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 17, 2018)

Good question, the only pure gold I've melted has been in the form of powders. and that is the only time I've observed the purple color.
Any carat gold or inquarted gold I've melted colored the borax black from base metal oxides. It's hard to see any purple when the borax have turned black.

Göran


----------



## rickzeien (Mar 17, 2018)

Thanks. I appreciate your reply 

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


----------



## anachronism (Mar 17, 2018)

Melt pure gold in a crucible and you're only gonna see a red mark around the crucible. Melt impure gold and you'll see a range of colours. Your flux should be minimal. I don't hold with all the massive amounts of borax people put in dishes it's old fashioned and assumes people cannot clean gold properly. The forum is full to the brim with ways to clean gold powder before you melt it. Do those things and you'll have pretty clean gold.

This is one way to physically see how pure your powder is as you are melting it. 

Stop swamping your crucibles with borax.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 18, 2018)

What would happen if I took a piece of iron & put it into my hcl + bleach containing my dissloved gold? And for any lost gold in an acid peroxide solution (mixed with other metals) etc?? My main inquiry is about what that iron would cement out of dirty solutions mixed with gold?


----------



## anachronism (Mar 18, 2018)

Put a lump of Iron in and everything "below" it on the reactivity series will precipitate out. 

So your copper will come out of solution as well as you precious metals.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 18, 2018)

That's precisely what I assumed & read about. So why after drying the (always) rusty clay colored cemented substance I try melting it and all I get each time is what resembles a charred piece of coal that crumbles up between my fingers? Am I missing something here? ? Take a gander at my last melt attempt.


----------



## geedigity (Mar 18, 2018)

> Postby Anarchy618 » February 17th, 2018, 3:39 pm
> How long does the process take when using a copper buss bar in auric chloride to drop the gold? Just a general question based on similar experience with same problem? Generally how long should you leave the copper buss bar in solution?



Okay, but you just asked about using iron to drop Au out of a dirty gold chloride solution. If it was copper you used, then you would drop out gold and any PM's present. If it was iron you used, then quite a few different metals, including, gold and PM's will drop out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series

The reason I mentioned this is that it appears you are having the same issue as before and if you accidentally used iron to drop the metals, then this might help explain some of the problems you have had. 
If you had dropped using copper, the metals that come out of solution are much cleaner (relatively) and limited to Au, and the other PM's.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 18, 2018)

Yes understood, and thank you for the link (was informative) but even so shouldn't I have stI'll been able to get some kind of "alloyed" object mixed with all metals present from the melt?? Anything other than that crumbly mess I got already?


----------



## snoman701 (Mar 18, 2018)

Do yourself a favor. Order a liter of nitric acid from somewhere.

It speeds up the learning curve to actually be able to get everything in solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 19, 2018)

Yes but my confusion lies where I'm not seeing any kind of metals here from any of this powder. What else could this stuff be? When I put an iron bar in a (what I thought was finished) solution of hcl + bleach. I'm completely in the dark as to how anything but gold could drop from a solution that only had gold put into it. So I just really want to know is what the heck is this stuff I'm getting??


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 19, 2018)

OXIDES!

Anyone listening on me?

Göran


----------



## anachronism (Mar 19, 2018)

Anarchy

You really need to learn the basic chemistry behind what you're doing here. Trust me it makes things a lot easier. 

Jon


----------



## Shark (Mar 19, 2018)

Pay attention to those last two posts. 

And I will add this, you say there was nothing but gold in your solution. Where did you get pure gold to work with? If you ran electronic waste there is a very large chance that you had a lot more than gold in it. Even karat gold has a large percent of other metals involved in producing it. If you did have nothing but gold in your solution, you still cemented to iron. Hydrochloric acid will corrode iron very easily and very fast. Add chlorine to it and it will be even faster. If your iron even sat in the area where you ran your HCl/Cl it had already started to rust. If it sat exposed to open air anywhere, it had already started to rust. When you added it to the mix, you introduced iron, not just iron but RUST.
Rust is iron oxide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 20, 2018)

Thank you guys I understand. Sorry I'm just really frustrated because I don't know if I lost all my gold. And it was alot. So I'm very worried & nervous at the same time trying to figure things out. After I did the washes from beginning of this post I ended up with that black powder that wasn't gold at all. So I knew my gold was still in solution (had to be, right?) And since my stannous wasn't really making any detections and I already tried the copper after already trying smb, I threw the iron bars into every & all saved solutions from acid peroxide - acid bleach and just collected everything that came out from it. Trying to find my gold. I'll admit I let myself get a little ahead of the situation & my own "learning in progress" knowledge of these processes and their steps involved by freaking out a teeny bit with the iron situation. I'm trying to figure this out after stuff began happening of an unfamiliar origin to what I studied & learned about with these particular processes. So I'm going to digress before using up any more space with my rants & venting and just say this "I just really want to figure out how I can try finding where all my gold went. I threw nothing at all away & saved all liquids/solutions I worked with and used the iron as my last attempt. I know it's easy to get frustrated with someone who's doing something wrong with a subject you are already so familiar with but I'm just a guy trying to do the right thing & beginning to get heartbroken & sad at a potential failure & major financial loss. So please people of this forum, bear with me. And here's a pic of the iron I used, just as stated above its full of rust.


----------



## anachronism (Mar 20, 2018)

Hang on. Hold the fort here. What you did drop may contain your gold. Now the fun part is cleaning that up and finding it.

It's likely to be within that metal mess you have so now's the time to put your cap on and do some hardcore learning Sir. ALL the answers are on here I promise you.

Jon

Edit: Remember this one mantra if nothing else. "You never lose your gold till you throw it away."


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 20, 2018)

Anachronism, what method should I use to clean the mess up & separate to get the gold? Would hcl washes help? And if you could give me a general idea of the color of the cemented gold? Is it the same milk chocolate color from smb drops etc. Or does the iron make it cement out as a different color? Esp with all the rust involved.


----------



## anachronism (Mar 20, 2018)

Anarchy618 said:


> Anachronism, what method should I use to clean the mess up & separate to get the gold?



Rather than give you all the info on a plate let me try something and I promise you'll benefit better from it.

Ask some questions:

1. What other metals do you think will be there.
2. What solvents for those metals exist that you can get hold of.
3. How do I do it step by step.

Make a list - feel free to post it here, and then go search.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 20, 2018)

Thank you very much Anachronism. I will get started on that right now and will post results afterwards. Wish me luck! (not that it's needed with the advice you guys give but as you can see, things haven't been exactly up to par with my actions up till this point) But could you still give any information on the color question for the cemented gold ?? It's for sake of curiosity.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 20, 2018)

And just for your information, that mantra is a great one along with the quotes below it! Im a lover of quotes. I believe sometimes an analogy can be the best way to make someone understand better, to make something finally click (so to speak) after helping the already dimly lit lightbulb glow brighter I was able to see & understand something holding my progress back alot better. Ill always remember this one because of what & how you just made all that happen for me. Many thanks kind sir anachronism.


----------



## Shark (Mar 20, 2018)

While Jon (anachronism) and I have mildly butted heads few times, it most certainly was never over his knowledge of refining. Quite the opposite, in fact I have learned quite a bit from him. I will add one more thing to his list and that would be to "take a deep breath, relax, and come back to it with a fresh outlook".


anachronism said:


> Anarchy618 said:
> 
> 
> > Anachronism, what method should I use to clean the mess up & separate to get the gold?
> ...


----------



## anachronism (Mar 21, 2018)

Shark said:


> While Jon (anachronism) and I have mildly butted heads few times, it most certainly was never over his knowledge of refining. Quite the opposite, in fact I have learned quite a bit from him. I will add one more thing to his list and that would be to *"take a deep breath, relax, and come back to it with a fresh outlook"*.



Haha I like that quote. I like it a lot because it's the mainstay of recovering gold. Things have a tendency of going wrong especially when you reach the point of competence where you decide to cut out a step or do something slightly different because you think it will save time. We've all done it and I don't believe anyone who tries to say otherwise. 8) 

OP. Knowing what do do when it all goes Pete Tong is knowing how to truly recover gold. Any monkey can follow a step by step guide without understanding what they are doing but they haven't got one iota of knowledge of how to rescue a job if they don't get the chemistry.

Any monkey can be taught to refine (I believe Harold said that and he was correct.) Learning to recover gold takes skill and is a different discipline entirely, especially since we have now morphed over time from a forum dealing with jewellery to a forum dealing with ewaste. 

Knowing the basic chemistry behind what you're doing allows you to look at a pile of gunk (like you have) and work out how you are going to deal with it step by step. Frankly if you had Nitric I would tell you to dissolve the lot in AR again, test for gold, and precipitate out the PMs properly. You don't so you have to get clever with it. Learning to do this will set you in good stead I promise, because you'll never forget the steps you took especially if you take notes. 

Do make sure you have Stannous Chloride to hand. Without it you're going nowhere because you need to know where your gold is at all times.

Regards

Jon

Edit for context.


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 21, 2018)

Why not start at the beginning. I don't remember if you ever wrote down what you have done, from start to finish. I don't even know what starting material you begun with and how much. So why don't you make a list of every step you did, from the starting material, filtering, what chemicals you used, concentrations, weights, volumes of your solutions... and so on. Don't forget a quick list of what chemicals you have and not. The more detailed the easier for us to help you.
If we get it in an easily viewed format I'm sure someone can
1. give you a good estimate on how much gold you had when you started.
2. point out where things started go wrong.
3. Point out a good place to look for the gold and how to detect it.

And as Jon said, the only way to actually lose any gold is to throw it away. As long as you save solutions, filters and any solids any gold you started with will still be somewhere... that's the reason I still have a number of containers with remnants of my refining 10 years ago. :lol: 

Göran


----------



## kurtak (Mar 21, 2018)

g_axelsson said:


> And as Jon said, the only way to actually lose any gold is to throw it away. As long as you save solutions, filters and any solids any gold you started with will still be somewhere... that's the reason I still have a number of containers with remnants of my refining 10 years ago. :lol:
> 
> Göran



You got that right Goran :!: --- when I was cleaning up my operation in Wisconsin to make my move to Oregon I ran across solutions, filters & solids I had set aside from some of my first beginning attempts at refining (which in the beginning did not go so well) 

When I cleaned up (can we say these first "failed" attempts) I came out of it with a nice little pay check :mrgreen: 

That pay check was made up of gold, silver & palladium because (thanks to the "often" said advise of Harold) I never threw those beginning attempts out --- but 8 years later - with a whole more experience under my belt I was able to recover what I "thought" I had lost in the beginning 8) :mrgreen: 

Kurt


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 22, 2018)

Okay so is since my last post I reread some portions of Hoke and after an additional hcl +water bath plus the handy use of a magnet I was able to get a totally different color range of the powders. Here I am now with a little more confidence and alot less hcl. Due to running out I have been at a standstill but wanted to post this picture of my progress. I tried substituting the hcl with lysol toilet bowl cleaner but due to how impossibly soapy its consistency is, thus making it very difficult (even with heat applications) to work with & wash out with the water. One key factor to note is during this whole procedure the one thing standing out most for me would have to be with how the powder drastically changes colors (as you can see from all my pictures of progress I've been posting since page 1) after each wash & rinse application.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Mar 22, 2018)

Anarchy618 said:


> I tried substituting the hcl with lysol toilet bowl cleaner


 :shock: 

Once you've mastered the techniques presented here, you can _think_ about substituting things. Until then, stick to the proven processes you find here on the forum.

Dave


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 22, 2018)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Anarchy618 said:
> 
> 
> > I tried substituting the hcl with lysol toilet bowl cleaner
> ...


 Only reason that kind of attempt was made is because of this instructable http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Extract-Gold-From-Electronics/?amp_page=true. Ever since the warning you guys gave earlier I have not been doing things out of bounds or on a whim anymore. That was what was getting me in trouble to begin with. Plus you guys already told me to stop.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 22, 2018)

As of now I've decided to reread hoke (such a fun & interesting read makes multiple views quite easy) and just as you guys are basically saying, come back afterwards with a fresh set of eyes. By that time I'll be able to obtain some new muriatic acid from home depot and use my revived peepers to help my stuck thinker (with the help of new friends on this forum of course) figure out once & for all how to finally post up nothing else than a golden button. No more oxides!!! No more oxides!!! No more oxides!! I've been using mantras alot since the other day. Hey, what can you say other than..... they do work. That being said, hopefully the next pictures I post will not be disappointing ones that make your own peepers feel sore & make all your thinkers hurt with migraine headaches from mine own ignorance.  Without further adeiou,  I am off to my next chapter in Hoke so I can (metaphorically) come bearing good headache medicine & fresh sunglasses for my fellow forum members as they gaze upon our future conversations and appealing photos shared amongst each other. And by the way did I mention  the aforementioned copy of C.M. Hoke of which I am able to read at all is of no thanks to anyone else but members of this very forum.  Which by the way was & is given as a free pdf download with no strings attached if you search the board index. Until next time fellow forum members,  anarchy has a damn good book to go finish.


----------



## Anarchy618 (Mar 22, 2018)

Anarchy618 said:


> FrugalRefiner said:
> 
> 
> > Anarchy618 said:
> ...


----------



## Shark (Mar 22, 2018)

Anarchy618 said:


> FrugalRefiner said:
> 
> 
> > Anarchy618 said:
> ...



Think about your statement a minute. How did you end up asking for help to start with? How did you get so far off track? There is no easier way to do things the first time than to follow a well defined, proven guide line. What Dave is saying about substituting steps is for the well experienced with a better than average understanding of the chemistry involved. The problem that might arise from even small changes can effect everything from start to finish. It may not even show up until you start to treat your waste. Study up, then lay out a plan, and follow it carefully. Even better, post your plan and someone can scrutinize it for you and point out things that may cause you problems before you get that far along.


----------



## g_axelsson (Mar 22, 2018)

I'm out, I've wasted enough time trying to help someone that doesn't want help.

Good luck.

Göran


----------

