# Coin Counterfeiting



## goldsilverpro (Jul 7, 2009)

Good article. May the buyer beware!
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/


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## Oz (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks GSP!

I had heard about this before but not in such detail. Of particular interest is that they are willing to use some PMs in these to help them look authentic and even purposefully deface them or artificially wear them to help in passing them off. Most counterfeiters are too greedy for that, but these guys are happy with a smaller return on investment.


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 7, 2009)

These guys are good. And that's only one group. There are probably many more. Success always breeds copy cat companies. I wonder what percentage of the coins sold to collectors are (or, will be) fake. If they are good enough and made of the correct alloy, I can't think of any way to detect them, even for a pro. Fake bullion coins are most probably all made of non-PM metals. Otherwise, there would be no profit in them. They are easy to detect. Collectible coins are a different deal. They can use the right alloys and still turn a profit.


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## Oz (Jul 8, 2009)

I have heard of some American Eagles being produced out of China that were 60% Ag to give that silver ring to them. I do not however have greater detail or links. Considering the high premiums paid for eagles and the missing silver value I would guess they could still double their investment including labor. It is a very smart move to replicate common and or worn coins to be able to move volume. How many people want to put a drop of Schwerter’s solution on a silver eagle even if it is unslabed, tarnished or worn?


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## metatp (Jul 8, 2009)

Counterfeiting coins is also a way that thief launder any precious metal they steal. This has been true with gold coins mostly. They would steal the gold and melt it in coins so they can be sold into the market. Depending on how well they are at counterfeiting (and I understand that there are groups in China that are very good), we may find out it is a counterfeit coin, but with the right amount of gold. Even though it may be found that it is counterfeit, the owner holding the coin is reluctant to give up their precious metal. Everyone gets greedy so they just pass the counterfeit from one hand to another. Best advise is that if it is too good to be true 99% of the time it isn't good.


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## 4metals (Jul 11, 2009)

A friend bought a few of these bars, professionally doctored to say the least. They were machined out and filled with I believe was tin lead slugs, calculated to replace an exact weight. Then the end that had been machined off was capped with silver and soldered and the whole bar was polished smooth and the weight was exact. Any surface testing would be testing fine silver, and nobody will let you drill a bar like this to test it, it's Engelhard for God's sake!

The only way it was discovered was when a customer ordered fine silver shot, the bars were melted to produce it. Fortunately someone was looking when the last bar on top melted in a strange way so it was pulled before it melted completely. Otherwise the proof would have gone into the melt. The other bars from the same source melted and it was too late. As best we can figure 75 ounces of silver was removed and replaced with tin lead in a fine silver shell. The estimate was made by knowing how many of these were in the melt and assaying the shot.

I wonder if these were made in China!!


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## Anonymous (Jul 12, 2009)

Wouldn't tin/lead have melted out leaving a hole? seems to me you have a slug of something in there. 


Jim


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## 4metals (Jul 12, 2009)

That slug is all that's left of the slugs they put in there. I assume they were long enough to fill the length of the machined out hollow completely. Most of it did melt out and the silver was just about to go when it was pulled out of the induction furnace.


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## markqf1 (Jul 12, 2009)

I bet it would be alot harder to do this with gold due to density and displacement issues.

Mark


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## 4metals (Jul 12, 2009)

True but the return on investment doing it with silver 100 ounce bars is high too! Pay for 100 ounces, mill out 75, labor to dummy it up, (in Chinese dollars), sell remaining 25 ounces for price of 100.


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## Noxx (Jul 13, 2009)

4metals, 

Would not an XRF gun be able to find out that the bar was filled with «junk» ? What is the «penetration» ability of the X-rays ?


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## 4metals (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't know how deep the xrf penetrates but considering plated jewelry throws things off it's a fair question. But an Engelhard bar is usually not questioned. Now every purchase is melted and assayed.


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 14, 2009)

The 100 oz Englehard bars that I've seen faked were drilled and filled with lead or lead/tin. The holes on the end of the bars were somehow plugged with silver and ground flush. Upon close examination, you could always faintly see the outline of the plug hole.


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## 4metals (Jul 14, 2009)

Well from your description these bars could have been the same, notice the piece of fill material that didn't melt. It's a non issue for my friend now, anything he buys is malt and assay. I just wanted to post these pictures in case any buyers come across there. Apparently GSP did as well!


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## Ageo308 (Jul 14, 2009)

4metals said:


> I don't know how deep the xrf penetrates but considering plated jewelry throws things off it's a fair question. But an Engelhard bar is usually not questioned. Now every purchase is melted and assayed.




Must of missed this thread.....

The XRF usually goes about 2-3mm in but in thick bars there is no way to tell and unfortunately the only way to find out is by drilling.

You see the scamers have gotten smarter as they thick plate the whole bar which leaves any testing like acid, XRF etc... almost impossible to detect.

When ever i come across something like this (and i have many times) and they dont want me to drill, then i get as much personal info off them as possible that way if there is any problems i know where to find them  

But i have tested heaps of plated stuff from plated sovereigns, bullion thats stamped and with a certificate! (which was plated) and loads of other crap.

Anyone with the right equipment can make anything you want and that includes fancy hallmarking, bullion etc..

Unless you can verify its purity in some way i would be staying away from it.

Gold dust is another 1 that springs to mind that scammers love!


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## Anonymous (Jul 15, 2009)

The guy I sell to has a big shear, cut the piece in half and test the middle, if he can not shear, he does not buy.

Makes sence, he told me he was buyging from one fellow and the first several ounces were real good, then he got some stuff that the refiner shorted him on, found out that guy started alternating, one solid, one with base metal filler, he thinks it was tungsten, go figure. Gain trust then smash it to pieces.

Jim


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## markqf1 (Jul 15, 2009)

I'll bet this doesn't tickle the folks at engelhard.
Is there nothing sacred?

Mark


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## markqf1 (Jul 17, 2009)

Check this out.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9801e4d7153be63bbc4950dfbe66838c679fde

The article makes no mention of what the material was.
I wonder what it could have been.
Notice the date.

Mark


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## jimdoc (Jul 19, 2009)

Here is some more on the subject;

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/07/16/10151296-sun.html?cid=rssnewscanada


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## blueduck (Aug 9, 2009)

I had read about coins being counterfeited and placed in PCGS holders last year but looking at those photos i can see there is a huge business being made of it..... 

It used to be a sure thing to purchase a graded coin and feel somewhat secure that it was indeed a coin that the holder says it is [if from one of the big four] and since i dont have enough funds to buy a coin and have it graded, I used to look for a coin in my price range, ergo one that maybe was cleaned or had other defects making it not as desireable to other folks..... 

Hundreds of coins are sold by the hour on the big online yard-sale, 99% of them outside my price range if i was gonna add to the collection i started as a kid.... add the degree of difficulty of not a real coin and ya have people like me who maybe would like to either get back into it and add to what they have or start in as a future investment for their kids [major coin portfolios have out preformed stocks in tests since the early 1970's] and since the decline of the stock market I keep telling folks they aught to have coins, and precious metal in hand and they would have done alright, both have been a whole lot more stable in the past couple years than stocks... but not everyone has a reputable coin dealer near them [closest one to me is 70 miles, and he has been known to be slightly skewed at times] 

So in buying a coin it comes down to knowing what it is you are buying inside and out, have the tools and books to make sure the weights are correct and the size is as well, and if you still aint sure, well the deal if to good to be true usually is and if you dont pass the only person to blame is the fella looking back at ya in the mirror...... 

processing scrap may still be a better way to have fun anymore, at least you know ya start with "junk" to get a good product.

William
Idaho


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## jimdoc (Aug 9, 2009)

It is a shame what these guys (China) are doing to everything.
I used to collect coins and had complete sets of alot of the different denominations, except for some really high priced key dates and silver coins down into the 1800's. I sold most of them to buy a convertible years ago, and had lots more fun with that although its gone now also. I never got into baseball cards because of how easy it is to fake them, and now its coins. You really need to be an expert in whatever you want to collect nowadays.
Here is another link on the wonderful products China sends us;

http://sbk.online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203674704574332264031026476.html

We can't even make drywall here anymore? What a messed up world this is getting to be.
Jim


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## Fournines (Aug 9, 2009)

I've been collecting gold coins for a little while, and I recently brought my collection to a numismatist to get looked at. I usually get the coins in scrap. The dealer I went to has been in the business for 40+ years and does a tremendous volume in gold coins and bullion. When he looked at a 1912 $5 Indian Head half eagle that I had, he immediately told me that it was counterfeit. I told him that the weight and dimensions were right - he said he could just tell by the stamp. It was gold for sure, but that would be all it was worth - about $240 instead of the $400+ that it might have been if it was real.

Now some of you might think that he was just telling me that so he could get it at a cheaper price - but I didn't bring my coins to sell them, just to get some prices. I've done business with this dealer for a while and I trust his opinion.

I brought the coin to someone else to get a second opinion - didn't tell him to take a special look at the 1912 coin - and he told me the same thing.


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## butcher (Aug 9, 2009)

all of these greedy people making fakes could hurt the gold market value, if people dont buy gold for fear of fakes.
few bad apples are alway's spoiling the batch.


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## markqf1 (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm sure we all remember Archimedes.
It's been going on for centurys.

Mark


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## blueduck (Aug 12, 2009)

markqf1 said:


> I'm sure we all remember Archimedes.
> It's been going on for centurys.
> 
> Mark



Well I aint that old so i cant say i personally knew the man, but one of his inventions has worked well for me after being produced some 2000 years ago, the reverse spiral retrieves really fine gold from the beach sands we have around here and ive used three different models plus a reverse spiral wheel......

But that was not what you were asking eh? 

william
Idaho


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## markqf1 (Aug 12, 2009)

I wasn't asking anything really.

I think "displacement" was what made him say "eureka" and run down the street naked :lol: .

Mark


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## butcher (Aug 15, 2009)

Have not read about that what did he displace besides his pants? :lol:


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 16, 2009)

He displaced water, with a gold crown, I seem to remember.


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## markqf1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Archimedes (287-212 B.C.) was a Greek inventer and mathematician.
Summoned by the king of Syracuse (Hieron II), he was asked to determine if the king's crown was made entirely of gold. The wise king did not think his crown was as heavy as it should have been. Archimedes was given strict instructions not to damage the crown during his investigation.
He had no idea how he could achieve such a feat until he decided to take a bath.
As he submerged his body into the tub of water he noticed the water level in the tub rise.
He immediately jumped out of the tub (public bath) and ran home (naked) shouting "Eureka".

When he measured the volume of water that the crown displaced, he found it to be a greater amount than was displaced by a lump of gold of the same weight. This told him that the goldsmith had substituted some of the gold for a less dense material (probably silver).

This revelation cost the sneaky goldsmith his head.

As I stated before, It has been going on for centurys.

Mark


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## markqf1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Gsp,
This story relates to a question that I had asked you a few months back.

If you know the density of quartz rock of a particular type, why couldn't you use this method to determine approximate free gold content?

I know there are alot of varibles but could these not be accounted for on a percentage basis?

Using the displacement method eliminates the work of calculating the mass of very irregular shaped rocks.
Once you had a percentage to work with, could'nt you then just weigh them?

Mark


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## qst42know (Aug 16, 2009)

There must be tens of thousands of chemical combinations in the wild. And densities of the same compounds, formed under different pressures, and air inclusions and the like. How would you attribute the variation from what you expect to what you find to be gold?

I think rock samples would contain too many variables for this to work.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 16, 2009)

> I think rock samples would contain too many variables for this to work.



I agree, although, with the great difference between the S.G. of rocks (many run between 2 and 4) and that of gold, it may be possible to get an estimation. Probably, the higher the gold content, the higher the accuracy. I worked out the math and came up with this:

Au = (SGg x SGq - SGm x SGg)/(SGm x SGq - SGm x SGg)

where, 
*Au* is the decimal amount of gold. For example, an answer of .05 = 5% gold.
*SGg* is the specific gravity of gold*
*SGq* is the specific gravity of the quartz or, whatever
*SGm* is the measured specific gravity of the gold bearing quartz
The / symbol, of course, means divide.
The formula will work for any 2 component system. For 3, or more, it gets more complicated.

* The SG of pure gold is 19.3. However, the gold isn't pure. If the gold is 90%, with 6% Ag and 4% Cu, the specific gravity would be about 17.5, which would be used on the above formula instead of 19.3. Also, the answer, Au, would have to be multiplied by .90 (I think).

Estimated SG of 90Au 6Ag 4Cu alloy = 1/(.90/19.3 + .06/10.49 + .04/8.9) = 17.5 
Here again, my math. The SGs of the three metals are Au=19.3, Ag=10.49, and Cu=8.9. A 2 metal alloy has only 2 terms in the divisor. A 3 metal alloy has 3 terms, 4 metals has 4 terms, and so on. I used this formula to estimate the SGs of karat golds. 

I found this thread on the subject. I think some of the math is a bit flawed, but it is interesting.
http://www.finders.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?p=454&sid=0e22a91b6668982f0931adcf580a73ea
finders.com.au has a good gold forum about the same size as ours.

BTW, I just tried to Google finders.com.au and got a database error, It said there were too many on line (1040!). I had no trouble an hour ago.

Chris


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## markqf1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Gsp,
Thanks for your wisdom.

Here is what I've came up with.


The S.G. of gold is 19.3
The S.G. of quartz is 2.65

The formula seems to be 3.1 x the weight in water, minus 1.2 x the weight in air.

In other words, if I had a "nugget" that weighed 74.5 grams wet, x 3.1 = 230.95.
Weighed 96 grams dry x 1.9 -= 182.4
230.95 - 182.4 = 48.55.
48.55/31.1 = 1.56 oz of gold.

The ratio between gold and quartz is 7.28 x.

Any thoughts on this "formula'?

I guess we have to figure out how to hang it from a string to get the weight in water. :lol: 

Mark


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## AKDan (Aug 16, 2009)

There are specific devices that can be purchased for obtaining the specific gravity weight of objects. I have some plans for homebuilt devices around somewhere, but will need to really search to find them I suspect. The move from Alaska to outside really took a toll on my stuff, much of it still being in boxes and bags. I will put up what I have when I find it, unless someone else comes up with the goods first.


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## AKDan (Aug 16, 2009)

Here is a quick one I found on line

http://miningold.com/scale.html


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## butcher (Aug 16, 2009)

mark that seems to me would work for a calculated guess, if gold content was fairly high, and other metals and minerals with lower densitys, but what about when the gold is fine and grams or less than ounces to the ton, and as someone stated above wouldn't the rock say quartz not be the same pysical size for each gram of it? well I guess yer gonna have to fix up a scale and show me :lol: 
shoot Ill have to try that out just hope I dont displace my pant,s.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 17, 2009)

Mark,

Where on earth did the factors 3.1, 1.2, and 1.9 come from???

I calculated it using the formula I gave and your weights in air and water and came up with 1.45 oz of gold. Amazingly close to your 1.56, but I have no idea why. I wonder if this was just coincidental or if you are on to something with your factors. 

Using your weights, the SG = 96/(96 - 74.5) = 4.465

Just about any type of scale can be jury-rigged to weigh the object in water. For example, you could put a triple-beam scale on the end of an ironing board. Lay a small lightweight length of wood, with a thread attached on each end, across the pan. Tie the 2 threads to the object and weigh it in a container of distilled water, under the ironing board. Of course, the weight of the apparatus, the wood and the threads, should be weighed separately and deducted from the calculation.

If you search Google, you will see several ways to jury-rig scales for SG measurements. This guy simply used tape to attach the thread to the pan of a cheap digital scale. It's a good article.
http://www.lnhs.org/hayhurst/geology/specific_gravity.htm

The mechanical Ohaus Dial-O-Gram and Cent-O-Gram scales are inexpensive and quite accurate. They will read to .01 grams and have a max weight of 311 grams. They have a built in shelf for holding a beaker of water and determining the SG.

There have been a few discussions of measuring SG on this forum. Here are some of my posts on the subject.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=specific+gravity&terms=all&author=goldsilverpro&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


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## markqf1 (Aug 17, 2009)

Gsp,
The internet of course! :lol: 

Here is another one for you.

G=(D*N*(1-Q/(N/(N-W))))/(D-Q)

G= weight of gold
D= density of gold/S.G.=19.3
N= weight of nugget in air
Q= density of quartz/S.G.=2.65
W=weight of nugget in water

Mark


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## markqf1 (Aug 17, 2009)

Another way to calculate the wet measurement is to lay a "crossbar" with string attached, on the top of a container, fill with water, then put it on a scale and tare it.
Then tie your nugget to the string, weigh, and calculate.

Mark


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## jimdoc (Feb 2, 2011)

Bumping this thread and adding a new video;

http://www.coinweek.com/Video/samples/csns10-005t-flv/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouVgJB42j_Q&feature=player_embedded


Jim


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## qst42know (Feb 2, 2011)

Bargain silver?

You know if any have been assayed or refined?


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## HAuCl4 (Feb 3, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> These guys are good. And that's only one group. There are probably many more. Success always breeds copy cat companies. I wonder what percentage of the coins sold to collectors are (or, will be) fake. *If they are good enough and made of the correct alloy, I can't think of any way to detect them, even for a pro.* Fake bullion coins are most probably all made of non-PM metals. Otherwise, there would be no profit in them. They are easy to detect. Collectible coins are a different deal. They can use the right alloys and still turn a profit.



It is very hard, but doable, to make exactly the dies that strike the fakes, probably the only last reliable way to tell an original from a fake is by an analysis of the impurities. There is this story of a guy that even got around this and made thousands of fake tokens for slot machines. The fakes were so good that the factory that made the originals could not tell them apart. They were exact mechanically and chemically. Amazing.

I believe a real antique coin has a very precise chemical composition of gold and impurities that is probably overlooked by most counterfeiters, but if someone really sets their sights on copying exactly, they will probably succeed.

There are also many stories of large number of U.S. bills counterfeited by rogue governments like North Korea, etc. Apparently the fakes could not be told apart from the real ones. Maybe that's why the U.S. Treasury keeps changing the designs?. To minimize the damage?. Strange times we live in, with technology becoming free to anyone thanks to the information revolution. Scary.


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## jimdoc (Apr 22, 2011)

Another story on Chinese fakes;
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110421/news/704219785/

Jim


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## Oz (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks Jim. 

Just last week as a favor to a friend I went to look at his buddy’s silver coins that he had bought as an investment but now wished to sell. What first caught my eye was that he had several seated dollars in good condition, a good size lot of Russian coins, but then I saw he had 2 1906 Morgan Dollars that did not look right. The Morgans had rims too thin and offset unequally on opposing sides with wear in the wrong places compared to some sharp high relief spots. After voicing my concern he pulled out his coin book to show me how valuable they were. I asked him to show me the value on his 1906 Morgans, it was interesting to see his confusion when he could not find them in the book as Morgans were not minted in that year.

Since all of these had been bought together all were suspect at that point in my mind. I told him the best I could do was refine them and pay on the silver recovered. Fakes showing up really ruin things for collectors. I also wonder how many originals may be destroyed by people erring on the safe side and only paying for silver recovered. Counterfeits being prevalent can cause nice Seated Dollars to just become scrap silver in a cell again.


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## jimdoc (May 2, 2011)

This story is on 100 oz. bars that were stolen from behind a guys wall. He probably didn't know they were filled with lead when he hid them there. I bet he, or whomever he bought them from, probably bought them on Ebay.

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2011/04/silver_bars_filled_with_lead_c.html

Jim


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## Fournines (May 2, 2011)

http://about.ag/LeadFilled100OunceBars.htm


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## Militoy (May 3, 2011)

Glad I’m not investing in 100 oz silver bars! The Chinese counterfeiting operations have flooded swap meets and even coin shops all over the world. Here are a few counterfeits I have picked up from unsuspecting buyers that bought them as real silver dollars or bullion rounds. They are all light compared with the real silver dollars or rounds they imitate, even though they test out with a fairly high silver content. The “1902” Walking Liberty silver round is significantly larger in diameter than a dollar. The 1800 Busted Dollar is slightly larger than standard – and has a reeded edge as opposed to an inscribed one like it should have. The Busted Dollar would be worth 3-4 thousand dollars if it were real – and is a fairly convincing pattern for a fake – one called “big slick” by the experts.


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