# AP solution for removing ic chips legs



## joheleh (May 9, 2022)

Hi guys, I have a batch of 4,5kg of plastic ic chips.
I’m trying to remove legs with a bath of AP solution made of 3lt of HCl and 1H2O2
I know most of the legs are Kovar but I tried anyway, I added some copper wire to the solution hoping to form some Cu2.
Now, it’s been 2 weeks (with no bubbler) and those are the results.
To me seen the reaction stopped but I don’t know.
In your opinion should I wait?


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## Yggdrasil (May 9, 2022)

Add bubbler. A few ml of Peroxide is enough, then bubbler.


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## joheleh (May 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Add bubbler. A few ml of Peroxide is enough, then bubbler.


The chips are really packed…maybe I could tie a rubber tube to a stick…and put it at the bottom…


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## Yggdrasil (May 9, 2022)

Or take them out put in the hose and put them back in again.


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## kurtak (May 9, 2022)

Why in the world are you wasting acid & creating acidic waste to dissolve the legs away on the outside of the chips ?

I ask because it makes *NO* sense to do this !!!

*You are gaining NOTHING* doing this other then creating UN-NEEDED chemical waste !!!

Why ?

Because the legs on the "outside" of the chip are only a "*small*" part of the lead frame that goes inside of the chips

SO - when you go to incinerate the chips - to get to the (gold) bond wires - you are still going to end up with *MOST* of that lead frame base metal in the carbon/ash after incineration

That means you still have to separate all the lead frame base metal "*inside*" the chips from the carbon/ash (after incineration) with a magnet &/or sifting

To put it in perspective --- the legs on the outside of the chips is only "about 10 - 15% of the lead frame - the other 85 - 90% of the lead frame is "inside" the chips

*It makes absolutely NO sense *to waste time - waste chemicals & create chemical waste to eliminate a VERY small part of the base metal --- when you "still" have to remove "the rest" of the lead frame from the carbon/ash after incineration anyway !!!

I don't know where you got this idea but it is a TOTAL waste of time & chems when you still have to remove the vast majority of those very same lead frames form the carbon/ash after incineration anyway 

Kurt


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## Martijn (May 9, 2022)

What Kurt said. 

P.s. you don't have AP. You have ferric chloride imo.
All copper is clinging to the (iron)base metal legs. That's why the reaction 'stopped' 
All reachable copper is pretty much dissolved.


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## MicheleM (May 9, 2022)

Why people do things and only then ask for advices instead to do the opposite?


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## joheleh (May 9, 2022)

Wait…please don’t be so rude…
First: at the end of the process my intention was to collect the waste AP solution for next projects.
Second: after incineration I will dissolve magnetic material in nitric trying to recovery some PM from it and I was trying to eliminate all the base metals possible just to optimize the quantity of nitric in the next step.
…guys there is no reason to be so mean..


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## MicheleM (May 9, 2022)

@joheleh sorry for the rudeness, anyway, AP solution or CuCl2 (aq) works at his best without base metal contaminants, i mean Fe Cl 3 and Cu Cl2 are good ions in solution all the other metals that come from the IC legs will reduce the etching properties and create more waste. Nitric acid on the remaining magnetic material is not the best option, unless you are able to obtain nitric at a very cheap price


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## joheleh (May 9, 2022)

MicheleM said:


> @joheleh sorry for the rudeness, anyway, AP solution or CuCl2 (aq) works at his best without base metal contaminants, i mean Fe Cl 3 and Cu Cl2 are good ions in solution all the other metals that come from the IC legs will reduce the etching properties and create more waste. Nitric acid on the remaining magnetic material is not the best option, unless you are able to obtain nitric at a very cheap price


Thanks, what process you suggest to eliminates base metals from the magnetic material?


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## Martijn (May 9, 2022)

A magnet?


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## joheleh (May 9, 2022)

Martijn said:


> A magnet?


A magnet….listen, I have to recover precious metals from the magnetic material, obviously I’ll SEPARATE it from the dust with a magnet, I was asking another thing…how to ELIMINATE base metals from magnetic material without nitric…


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## Yggdrasil (May 9, 2022)

joheleh said:


> A magnet….listen, I have to recover precious metals from the magnetic material, obviously I’ll SEPARATE it from the dust with a magnet, I was asking another thing…how to ELIMINATE base metals from magnetic material without nitric…


In this case the base metals are the magentics, so its not possible.


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## kurtak (May 9, 2022)

joheleh said:


> Wait…please don’t be so rude…
> 
> …guys there is no reason to be so mean..


No one is being rude or mean !!!

you asked for advice - we (not just me) are providing you with advice

Just because the advice you are receiving is different then what you were expecting certainly doesn't mean we are being rude or mean - it only means - "you took it that way" - because you got answers different then you expected



joheleh said:


> First: at the end of the process my intention was to collect the waste AP solution for next projects.


Thats not going to work the way you "think" its going to work !!!


joheleh said:


> Second: after incineration I will dissolve magnetic material in nitric trying to recovery some PM from it and I was trying to eliminate all the base metals possible just to optimize the quantity of nitric in the next step.


That *most certainly* is not going to work like you think it is going to work !!!

You have a plan (to process IC chips) - but its a bad plan !!!

Why ? 

because it's going to create A LOT of chemical waste - that you do not need to create - in order to recover (around) 4 - 8 grams of gold from your 4.5 Kg of chips (depending on the "mix" of different "types" of chips in that 4.5 Kg)

There are better ways to get that gold - then the way you are planning !!!

So my question is ---------

Are you "actually" asking/looking for advice to recover that gold --- or are you just looking for "confirmation" that you have a good plan

For what it is worth - I used to process 500 - 600 pounds of IC chips per year - so I am more then glad to help you with the process

Other wise - you already have a plan & I wish you best of luck with your plan

Kurt


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## MicheleM (May 9, 2022)

There is a very limited amount of PM plated onto magnetic leadframe inside IC chips, anyway CuCl2 is very slow but works fine (but in time base metals are going to accumulate), water with NaCl and HCl is ultra-slow (there is a thread : "iron wire inside IC chips" or something like that) but in the end it works.


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## Maget (May 9, 2022)

Instead of burning I would crush them with a special machine like coffee grinding ones, then would do the chemistry on that powder.
I remember I was hammering such IC's and other types and extracting the insides of them, of course it was a small batch, based on hammering I know some grinding machine can break them without burning.


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## kurtak (May 9, 2022)

joheleh said:


> A magnet….listen, I have to recover precious metals from the magnetic material, obviously I’ll SEPARATE it from the dust with a magnet, I was asking another thing…how to ELIMINATE base metals from magnetic material without nitric…


Some where along the line someone has given you *VERY BAD advise* (likely from You Tube)

Like I said - I used to process 500 - 600 pounds of IC chips per year - so --------

Do you want my help ?

Or not ?

Kurt


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## joheleh (May 9, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Some where along the line someone has given you *VERY BAD advise* (likely from You Tube)
> 
> Like I said - I used to process 500 - 600 pounds of IC chips per year - so --------
> 
> ...


Sure! Your help would be very appreciate, in the end your answers are supported by your huge experience, and I’m glad to be in this forum with people like you.
Yes, I would like to know how to process the IC’s after burning them…
I made enough mistakes, but i try to learn


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## Shark (May 9, 2022)

To go back to the original post. Three parts hydrochloric to one part hydrogen peroxide DOES NOT make copper(ll)chloride. Hydrochloric acid and copper oxide will. Where is everyone getting this three to one formula after all these years of GRF trying do away with it? Rant over……. Back to Kurt.


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## FrugalRefiner (May 9, 2022)

Unfortunately, it comes from the early posts on the forum, perpetuated by repetition and its inclusion in Ralph's forum handbooks, let alone all the other instances on the internet and youtube.

Dave


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## GoIdman (May 10, 2022)

joheleh said:


> Sure! Your help would be very appreciate, in the end your answers are supported by your huge experience, and I’m glad to be in this forum with people like you.
> Yes, I would like to know how to process the IC’s after burning them…
> I made enough mistakes, but i try to learn


I would go with Kurt on this one.

This is not an advice it is how I do IC chips.

I made a setup with an electric motor a reductor and a regular cast iron meat grinder (if you dont have a motor, use hand power it works as well....but I`m lazy so i`ll use motor power)). I use this setup to grind my IC`s after incineration. then use an old coffe grinder, it makes a fine powder, after that sieving and the whole shebang, after that sluce to wash away the carbon. When you have your concentrated washed material you could think about refining with whatever method you wish.

Don`t waste acid and create unnecessary waste, you`ll have issues with it later when you have to dispose it...

Be safe

Pete.


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## joheleh (May 10, 2022)

GoIdman said:


> I would go with Kurt on this one.
> 
> This is not an advice it is how I do IC chips.
> 
> ...


I’m proceeding to clean the material, collect and dispose the “wrong” AP solution, and incinerate.
As told me(and predicted) by Kurt, there is a good amount of copper passivation on the legs.
Cause of my approximation, and lack of study, it ended with a lot of unwanted(copper) base metal.
So I learned…
Now would be appreciated some directives on how to proceed after incineration.
I think about sieving the ic dust after incineration, eliminating the magnetic material with neodymium magnet, washing everything in a dilute nitric solution untill no reaction, and then process the remain via AR…
Let me know


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## joheleh (May 10, 2022)

joheleh said:


> I’m proceeding to clean the material, collect and dispose the “wrong” AP solution, and incinerate.
> As told me(and predicted) by Kurt, there is a good amount of copper passivation on the legs.
> Cause of my approximation, and lack of study, it ended with a lot of unwanted(copper) base metal.
> So I learned…
> ...


And…I found a separated square ic, I want to condivide with you this video, where you can see the gold bonding wires. This is a clean one, I think it’s pretty representative about what inside, and what we are talking about “bonding wires”


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## GoIdman (May 12, 2022)

joheleh said:


> Now would be appreciated some directives on how to proceed after incineration.
> I think about sieving the ic dust after incineration, eliminating the magnetic material with neodymium magnet, washing everything ....
> Let me know



After incineration you have to grind it somehow util you„ll get a very fine powder to work with...you know what options you have there but if you have a good blender (glass type with metal blade coupling and not plastic) it will do the trick.

You have to get rid of most of the carbon before even thinking about using nitric or aqua regia...so washing away the carbon can be done with plain water and 1-2 drop of washing liquid..

Read this thread from start to finish...it covers the process pretty well...









Gold inside chips (black, flatpacks - not CPU)


I had some time and was interested to find how to get that gold out. There was few processes mentioned here already so I just combine few of them and here is what I did. We all know that there is gold inside. :) I do not have ball mill build yet so I decided to try another way. Incineration, or...




goldrefiningforum.com





Be safe

Pete


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## Martijn (May 12, 2022)

Some general questions: Are you done incinerating, when there's carbon left? 
Do you still need to grind incinerated material to let the bonding wires release from pins and dies? Or will sieving be enough to let these come apart?


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## kurtak (May 12, 2022)

Sorry - have not had time to get back to this & it will be this weekend before I have time

Kurt


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## kurtak (May 15, 2022)

joheleh said:


> Now would be appreciated some directives on how to proceed after incineration.


After incineration the next step is milling/grinding/crushing the chips

This is a very important step as it can make a BIG difference on the recovery you get from the chips

It needs to be said that you will not get 100 percent recovery from IC chips - that's because "some" gold will always be stuck to the silicon dies as well as "some" gold stuck to the Kovar &/or copper leads/wires

You need to "break" as much of that gold free from the silicon dies & Kovar &/or copper leads/wires as possible

So the more you mill them the more gold you will break free - do a really good job of milling should break free very close (plus/minus) 95% of the gold - do a poor job of milling & you may only break free (plus/minus) 80% of the gold

Therefore - ball milling is the very best method for breaking the gold free - a mortar & pestle is the least effective method

Some people suggest using a blender - & though a blender will do a better job then a mortar & pestle - not a lot better

Trust me - I have tried them ALL

Before I set up with ball milling I came up with a method that was very close to ball milling - if not as good as ball milling - but it is very labor intensive (so worked good on "small" batched)

I would first smash/crush the (incinerated) chips down in size (dry) with a mortar/pestle - which I would then wet - then I used a rolling pin to "grind" the living hell out of what came out of the mortar/pestle crushing --- pics of mortar/pestle & rolling pin provided

The rolling pin I used was made of a Teflon coated steel tube like this one






KitchenAid® Rolling Pin


Upgrade a kitchen essential with this KitchenAid Rolling Pin.




www.kohls.com





The grinding with the rolling pin was done on top of a 1/4 inch (6.5 mm) thick piece of "tempered" glass about 3 foot by 2 1/2 foot (1 meter by 3/4 meter) on top of my work bench

The reason for doing the grinding on (thick tempered) glass is that when grinding the gold wont smear & stick to the glass - whereas grinding on a sheet of plate steel the gold will smear & stick to the steel plate

This method will break the gold free very close to as good as ball milling (if not as good)

You can mill about 4 - 5 kilos of chips in a day with this method

To clarify the steps of this process --------

1) Dry "crush" the chips in mortar/pestle - as breaking them down some first makes the "grinding" step go quicker/easier

2) get the "crushed material wet

3) put about a cup of the wetted material on the glass

4) Start running the rolling pin over it "grinding" it until the carbon is ground to a* very fine* powder - takes "about" 8 - 10 minutes per cup - it's going to spread out on the glass so you need to sweep it together several times & go back to grinding - other wise you wont get complete grinding of the carbon because the silicon dies & Kovar/copper wire will prevent the rolling pin from getting to the carbon for complete milling

In other words - sweeping it all back into a pile allows the silicon dies & Kovar/copper wires to provide more complete milling of the carbon - I use a window cleaning squeegee for this as well as for sweeping the material off the glass into a catch pan after grinding is complete

As I said - this method is rather labor intensive - but - outside of ball milling it will give you the best results of breaking the gold free from the silicon dies & Kovar/copper wires - by as much as 10 - 15% better results

Bottom line - the better/more complete the milling - the better the recovery

After milling - the next steps are separation by sifting &/or magnet which gets rid of some of the silicon some of the copper & most (if not all the Kovar) - which is a post for another day

Then after sifting/magnetic separation there is the step of separating (washing away) most of the carbon/ash

Once that is done you will have a concentrate you can leach for the gold

Kurt


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## kurtak (May 15, 2022)

opps - forgot to post the pics of my mortar/pestle (for crushing) & the rolling pin I used (for grinding) before I went to ball milling

Kurt


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## joheleh (May 21, 2022)

What about the non magnetic metals? It is the case to eliminate with the aid of a nitric bath the copper particles first? And then trough AR solution for gold?


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## Geo (May 22, 2022)

I think you confused AP with CuCl2. As Shark said, the copper is necessary as a leachant. That is somewhat beside the point. As the others are trying to tell you that removing the leads from the outside of the body does nothing for the overall process. The leads left inside the body is the same metal. CuCl2 can be used to remove the excess copper left behind after milling and magnetic separation. It will not effect the silver other than create a little AgCl at the end of the process. You can use CuCl2 much like nitric leaching. Place the milled, screened material in a large beaker and add CuCl2 and an extra amount of fresh HCl and heat. Stir until the reaction starts to keep the material from settling and causing a hot spot on the bottom of the beaker possibly causing it to crack. I had a 5000ml beaker pop a perfectly round hole in the bottom about the size of a half dollar one time due to material swirling while stirring and formed a little mound in the center of the beaker. About the time the hotplate hit maximum, I heard a slight "tink" and all the solution drained into my catch pan.


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## dpgold (Jun 6, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Why in the world are you wasting acid & creating acidic waste to dissolve the legs away on the outside of the chips ?
> 
> I ask because it makes *NO* sense to do this !!!
> 
> ...


it has been circulating on youtube mostly this idea that you get rid of the legs and you end up with less lead, apparently this is WRONG, is good that you clarified this. I am also looking into how I should go about processing a mix of IC CHIPS and this aspect was one which you clarified. If there is any separation of what you call frame it should be after the incineration otherwise you end up doing this twice. Can you give me some advice on how I should proceed after incineration? My biggest worry is the separation of silver, gold and other PM from the mix of IC chips. Any advice will be of great help.


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## Martijn (Jun 6, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Can you give me some advice on how I should proceed after incineration?



:









AP solution for removing ic chips legs


Sure! Your help would be very appreciate, in the end your answers are supported by your huge experience, and I’m glad to be in this forum with people like you. Yes, I would like to know how to process the IC’s after burning them… I made enough mistakes, but i try to learn I would go with Kurt...




goldrefiningforum.com


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## Shark (Jun 6, 2022)

dpgold said:


> it has been circulating on youtube mostly this idea that you get rid of the legs and you end up with less lead, apparently this is WRONG, is good that you clarified this. I am also looking into how I should go about processing a mix of IC CHIPS and this aspect was one which you clarified. If there is any separation of what you call frame it should be after the incineration otherwise you end up doing this twice. Can you give me some advice on how I should proceed after incineration? My biggest worry is the separation of silver, gold and other PM from the mix of IC chips. Any advice will be of great help.


I think where this comes from is the reuse of old solutions. Where old AP is used to remove the legs, or other base metals, before disposing of it. Struggling to make this sound reasonable here, but think of it as using every last drop of your acid before getting rid of it. I tried it several years ago and it was OK. Where i would drop chips in a fairly clean but little used AP that I would process when I had time or felt like it. Not when I needed them done anytime soon. Then I started getting 10 to 20 pounds of memory every week or two, and chips started piling up faster than I had AP to deal with them. Throw in another 50-100 floppy drives along with 100 plus CD ROM drives and often 20 to 50 pounds of sound and video cards. See where I'm going with this? The difference of whether I used AP or not amounted to nothing I could detect, and started following the don't use AP method. In my mind, AP is for fingers, and other gold plated boards. The left over solution can do a lot, particularly pins, if used right. If not, then there comes another mess often requested for help with. 

To shorten the story, it is OK when your not in a rush. Otherwise the lead can be taken out of the refining process fairly easily.


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## dpgold (Jun 6, 2022)

Shark said:


> I think where this comes from is the reuse of old solutions. Where old AP is used to remove the legs, or other base metals, before disposing of it. Struggling to make this sound reasonable here, but think of it as using every last drop of your acid before getting rid of it. I tried it several years ago and it was OK. Where i would drop chips in a fairly clean but little used AP that I would process when I had time or felt like it. Not when I needed them done anytime soon. Then I started getting 10 to 20 pounds of memory every week or two, and chips started piling up faster than I had AP to deal with them. Throw in another 50-100 floppy drives along with 100 plus CD ROM drives and often 20 to 50 pounds of sound and video cards. See where I'm going with this? The difference of whether I used AP or not amounted to nothing I could detect, and started following the don't use AP method. In my mind, AP is for fingers, and other gold plated boards. The left over solution can do a lot, particularly pins, if used right. If not, then there comes another mess often requested for help with.
> 
> To shorten the story, it is OK when your not in a rush. Otherwise the lead can be taken out of the refining process fairly easily.


that makes sense, used AP is still very strong, even the second wash is impressive you could clean rusty steel apparently with it. Trying to figure out and understand the best method to process mixed IC chips. There will be a mix of values. I liked Geo's washing over and over method after incineration. Then it comes the metals separation and finally values separation.... Simple things could be difficult to understand sometimes. I found a site which explains chips construction and identification:








Integrated Circuit Package Types


The different types of packages used in Integrated Circuits



www.chipsetc.com


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## Shark (Jun 6, 2022)

It is easy to get overwhelmed with this. Especially when dealing with electronics. If you stay after it, eventually it starts coming together better. Keep asking good questions and I am sure someone will give you a good answer. It just takes more time than YouTube makes out to be.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Jun 6, 2022)

I would like to jump in here, and ask Kurt. How do you process IC chips?

I have 1/2 of a 5 gallon bucket of the ic chips from a bunch of ram memory which I recovered the gold from the fingers already.

All of the IC chips are already removed from the ram sticks as a resilt of how I recoved the gold on the fingers.


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## dpgold (Jun 7, 2022)

Shark said:


> It is easy to get overwhelmed with this. Especially when dealing with electronics. If you stay after it, eventually it starts coming together better. Keep asking good questions and I am sure someone will give you a good answer. It just takes more time than YouTube makes out to be.


is it ok to precipitate lead from the solution with sulphuric acid in AR or I should remove it all with AP?


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## Shark (Jun 7, 2022)

For chips, I lean toward doing it in AR. For one reason, I developed the refining process my way because it incorporates lead removal even when I am sure there is no lead. My thinking goes back to when I first started with some very dirty buttons. To clean them up I started using additional steps and stopped assuming there was no lead or in some cases silver involved. I just started using the steps to target their removal and saw huge improvements in my buttons. This combined with the use of better equipment made for very nice buttons and has served me well for the amount of stuff I ran.


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## dpgold (Jun 7, 2022)

Shark said:


> For chips, I lean toward doing it in AR. For one reason, I developed the refining process my way because it incorporates lead removal even when I am sure there is no lead. My thinking goes back to when I first started with some very dirty buttons. To clean them up I started using additional steps and stopped assuming there was no lead or in some cases silver involved. I just started using the steps to target their removal and saw huge improvements in my buttons. This combined with the use of better equipment made for very nice buttons and has served me well for the amount of stuff I ran.


Do you mean AR after incineration and cleanup or after AP?


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## Shark (Jun 7, 2022)

AR after incineration and clean up.

Kurt has a nice post on how he does his chips but I haven’t found it yet. I am sure he will when he gets time to see NobelMetals request.


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## dpgold (Jun 7, 2022)

the lead will be lost during the cleanup or precipitate from AR?


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## Shark (Jun 7, 2022)

Sulfuric will precipitate lead during the refining process. Of coarse removing as much as possible before helps and that is where the question of “to AP or not” comes in. I prefer to let the refine deal with it. I also remove most IC’s with a small torch except for memory, those I do in a rotisserie oven. There is also a machine that desolders parts that I would like to look into. Kind of like a hot lead bath just not sure how quick it would be.


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## dpgold (Jun 7, 2022)

I build a rotary tumbler with a hot air gun and de solder the memory chips and little MLCC which will be screened through a sieve. Because I am a beginner I start with things which are simple in principle and learn other things which might seem obvious to others. I try to find efficiency and cost reduction and do it in a very safe manner. I have a few things which are not very clear to me and I don't like to proceed with things like that because that is how you run into trouble. The first thing is which base metals I have to absolutely get rid of before AR (the ones that will not affect the precipitation) and the second is if I have a material which contains other values beside gold like Silver Palladium , how to separate them in the extraction. 
I try to separate materials but chips I gather them altogether, so they might contain silver gold, platinum ?


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## g_axelsson (Jun 7, 2022)

I think there might be a bit of confusion here...

Chips are made with a lead frame, not the metal lead but as a way to lead the signals in to the chip. The silicon die is often placed on top of a central flat piece. Sometimes with glue, sometimes with silver braze, gold braze or palladium. In most cases it's not made of precious metals in modern devices. The signals going to the chip is then connected with bond wires (gold, aluminium or gold plated copper is common). Every connection on the outside has it's corresponding bond wire inside the capsule.

After the bond wires are attached the lead frame with the die and bond wires are put into a mould and silicon dioxide filled epoxy is injected. After curing the lead frame is cut and the pins are formed so it reach down to the circuit board.
As a last step the pins or legs are plated or covered in tin solder. In older days the solder contained a bit of the metal lead but at least the last 20+ years the solder is lead free. There might be up to 3% of silver mixed in with the tin.

So there isn't a lot of the metal lead in most IC:s, but most of it, if there is some, is on the outside of the body.
The white ash is basically just fine sand. After a complete incineration the body should be white straight through. This takes some time though, so most videos I've seen shows a lot of black carbon left.

I have a temperature controlled oven that I use to burn off the carbon. 400-600 degrees C (slightly glowing) and a bit of air for a couple of hours, depending on the size of the lot, burns off most of the carbon and can even oxidize the lead frame. Then it's an easy task to crush the chips.

Göran


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## dpgold (Jun 8, 2022)

g_axelsson said:


> I think there might be a bit of confusion here...
> 
> Chips are made with a lead frame, not the metal lead but as a way to lead the signals in to the chip. The silicon die is often placed on top of a central flat piece. Sometimes with glue, sometimes with silver braze, gold braze or palladium. In most cases it's not made of precious metals in modern devices. The signals going to the chip is then connected with bond wires (gold, aluminium or gold plated copper is common). Every connection on the outside has it's corresponding bond wire inside the capsule.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying this, so in this case if you have have a waste AP solution contaminated already with lead it could be useful to get rid of the Pb from the solder by givin it a bath?


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 8, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Thanks for clarifying this, so in this case if you have have a waste AP solution contaminated already with lead it could be useful to get rid of the Pb from the solder by givin it a bath?


Add a few drops of Sulfuric, that will take care of it.


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## kurtak (Jun 8, 2022)

g_axelsson said:


> Chips are made with a lead frame, not the metal lead


Correct - when we talk about the "lead frame" in IC chips we are NOT talking about the metal lead (Pb)

for clarification ------------









Lead frame - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Lead (pronounced leed) frame - as in a path that leads somewhere - in this case the path the signal/current takes from the circuit board through the metal legs going into IC chip then to the silicon die (chip) inside the epoxy housing

Edit to add; - in other words - the leads are the wires/legs on the outside of the chip that connect to the circuit board- & then connect to the silicon die inside the chip with a gold bonding wire 

The lead (pronounced leed) frames are made of copper or Kovar - not the metal lead (Pb)

Kovar leads are removed with a magnet after incineration & milling

copper leads are removed by sifting &/or nitric leaching after incineration & milling

Kurt


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## kurtak (Jun 8, 2022)

The basic steps for processing IC chips

1) incineration to turn the epoxy housing to carbon/ash

2) milling to turn the carbon/ash to fine powder

3) magnet to remove Kovar leads

4) sifting through 80 mesh or 100 mesh screen to remove larger copper leads (some smaller copper leads will go though sifting screen - silicon dies & other large stuff including but not limited to carbon that did not fully mill to fine powder - so likely some re-milling

5) washing off most carbon/ash to get concentrates (panning, blue bowl, sluice box, concentrator table) not all carbon will wash off - so ----

6) re-incineration of concentrates to turn remaining carbon to ash

7) nitric leach to remove copper that made it through the above (or you can do nitric leach after step 5)

8) then you can ether AR leach the concentrate - or - smelt the concentrates

Outside of that - processing IC chips has been discussed *extensively* on this form --- so you can do your own research using key words - IC Chips - incineration - milling - ball milling - bonding wires - concentrator table - etc. & you will find a *HUGE* amount of info posted by me & others about processing IC chips

Part of the process - is doing your own research (that is how I learned)

In other words - (& I am sorry if this sounds rude - it's not meant to be) but there is no need for me to post another long & detailed post about how to process IC chips - because - there is already a *HUGE* amount of info here on the forum that has been discussed *EXTENSIVELY*

Kurt


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## dpgold (Aug 24, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Unfortunately, it comes from the early posts on the forum, perpetuated by repetition and its inclusion in Ralph's forum handbooks, let alone all the other instances on the internet and youtube.
> 
> Dave


I was wondering if I have plastic and ceramic chips mixed, incinerating them would work?


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 24, 2022)

dpgold said:


> I was wondering if I have plastic and ceramic chips mixed, incinerating them would work?


I really don't understand how your post, relate to the post you reply to?

You reply to a post from Dave, with a question regarding a totally different topic.


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## dpgold (Aug 24, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> I really don't understand how your post, relate to the post you reply to?
> 
> You reply to a post from Dave, with a question regarding a totally different topic.


It is a question about incineration, I was trying to ask him this question....


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## Shark (Aug 24, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Outside of that - processing IC chips has been discussed *extensively* on this form --- so you can do your own research using key words - IC Chips - incineration - milling - ball milling - bonding wires - concentrator table - etc. & you will find a *HUGE* amount of info posted by me & others about processing IC chips


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## Shark (Aug 24, 2022)

I don't mean for that be rude, but Kurt is right.

There is tons of useful information on the forum pertaining to most any subject we deal with. Because it is old information does not make it bad information. Some of the posts from the past are the most informative, educational and often just plain fun to read. If you find one, then still have questions, bring it up and ask there, in the old post. The next person looking for the information can then find it easier. Another thing this does is shows the rest of the forum just how hard your trying.

If you know they are mixed, it may be better to separate them. Separately your test results will be more accurate for you than ours will be at times. Skill and knowledge, as well as equipment and methods we use can or will come into play.

Otherwise, occasionally the ceramic may pop open, at times a bit violently. And they do not grind/crush very well.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 25, 2022)

dpgold said:


> It is a question about incineration, I was trying to ask him this question....


Well, ask the question then, without quoting to something completely unrelated, please.
And as Kurt and Shark said, there should not be much that has not been discussed on the forum.
Learn to use the search function and you will end up learning more and better.


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## kurtak (Aug 25, 2022)

dpgold said:


> I was wondering if I have plastic *and ceramic chips* mixed, incinerating them would work?


Per the bold print --- I don't mean to be rude - but - use some common sense here 

Ask your self --- does ceramic burn ? --- Answer - NO

Does ceramic *easily* crush (mill) to a *fine* powder ? --- answer - NO

So - why would you mix them in with epoxy (plastic) chips that burn & then mill to a fine powder 

Kurt


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## dpgold (Aug 25, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Per the bold print --- I don't mean to be rude - but - use some common sense here
> 
> Ask your self --- does ceramic burn ? --- Answer - NO
> 
> ...


I was not sure of the exact composition of the so called "ceramic" is what people refer to ceramic, I heard even plastic is not actually quite plastic so due to the overwhelming number of variants I thought I could ask here.


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## Shark (Aug 25, 2022)

Have started to process any of them yet?


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## dpgold (Aug 25, 2022)

Shark said:


> Have started to process any of them yet?


I have not started yet because I have some chips which I have collected together in a bucket and was not sure if plastics will melt or create some other unforeseen problem. My plan was to incinerate all, finely grind them with my new 39000 rpm mill and then use the washing and decanting method I have seen in an older video of Jeff where all water decanted is recirculated. My worry was that plastics will melt but was thinking that at a high temperature it will burn off.
Before I do a test I usually try to think through the process, to the best of my abilities and if it sounds like it should work I do it. I did a test with the plastic connectors, the initial plan was that after grinding plastic will float but I could not grind all the plastic, it would actually melt in the mill at that speed so I got another type of slower mill for the connectors.
EDIT: the chips I collected are of all kinds toghether


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## Shark (Aug 25, 2022)

Having ask before starting is a great way to learn at a lower cost. While it seems some of the comments are harsh they aren’t meant to be. Patnor, an older member, did a pretty good write up on how to process these years ago. It worked for me with a pound or two at a time. Kurt has been doing them longer and in larger volume than anyone else I have heard of, at least that is willing to help out. Find the posts from both and learn from them. Then think it all through again. I would concentrate on Kurt’s method, I think long term for volume it will be the way to go. Kurt is semi retired, or retired from refining so he is limited on time.

Who is Jeff, besides me and Geo?


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## Shark (Aug 25, 2022)

Ceramic chips are hard enough to sharpen a knife blade on, and will not burn.


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## dpgold (Aug 25, 2022)

Shark said:


> Ceramic chips are hard enough to sharpen a knife blade on, and will not burn.


I could burn them altogether and those that did not burn I could pick out in the end


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## dpgold (Aug 25, 2022)

Shark said:


> Having ask before starting is a great way to learn at a lower cost. While it seems some of the comments are harsh they aren’t meant to be. Patnor, an older member, did a pretty good write up on how to process these years ago. It worked for me with a pound or two at a time. Kurt has been doing them longer and in larger volume than anyone else I have heard of, at least that is willing to help out. Find the posts from both and learn from them. Then think it all through again. I would concentrate on Kurt’s method, I think long term for volume it will be the way to go. Kurt is semi retired, or retired from refining so he is limited on time.
> 
> Who is Jeff, besides me and Geo?


it is Geo, I watched an old video where he has used barrels to wash out the incinerated chips from one barrel to the other


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## Shark (Aug 25, 2022)

Or, you could save a little gas and pick them out first. 

Whichever works best for you. But look up the posts I mentioned before moving forward.

Old hillbilly saying:

There is no elevator to success, you have to take the stairs.


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## dpgold (Aug 25, 2022)

Shark said:


> Or, you could save a little gas and pick them out first.
> 
> Whichever works best for you. But look up the posts I mentioned before moving forward.
> 
> ...


That is true, I have tried to learn everything I can and do small experiments at the same time, I also keep some files with categories of methods and other stuff. Sometimes when I am looking to solve a problem the answer is in a small detail which is probably not in the ton of posts and for each answer there are probably other ten things which make that answer unclear.


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## BlackLabel (Aug 25, 2022)

@dpgold:
Plastic is not plastic and ICs are not all the same.

The plastic of connectors (like the 40 pin IDE/ATA connectors) is a kind of 'soft' plastic like PVC. If you put a burner on it, it will melt and burn.

The plastic of plastic ICs is harder and can't be bent. If you burn them, they will behave more than a piece of coal. They won't melt.

Ceramics will not burn and can't be bent.
You have to crush and/or mill them to reach the goodies inside.

Ceramic ICs are EPROMS (with the window on top), 386, 486, classic pentium, pentium pro (they aren't real black, more purple).
Or the very vintage white intel 4004.
They won't burn.


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## Shark (Aug 25, 2022)

The long posts are often where those handy little bits are found. But you get the idea.


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## Seny2021 (Sep 12, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Per the bold print --- I don't mean to be rude - but - use some common sense here
> 
> Ask your self --- does ceramic burn ? --- Answer - NO
> 
> ...


For ceramic cpu I had to break them with a hammer then used some water and some nitric acid


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## Seny2021 (Sep 12, 2022)

Seny2021 said:


> For ceramic cpu I had to break them with a hammer then used some water and some nitric acid


Filtered then used aqua Regia, ceramic cpus and chips are a bit easier the those other chips that you have to burn


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