# Copper sulphate cell



## samuel-a (Feb 24, 2010)

As promised, today i builted a copper sulphate cell on a bit larger scale.

as anode, i used a 45 grams of partially plated pins that melted together , but i was not able to alloy it completely, the maap is just not enough in a shallow melting dish, anyway, i got it to a nugget like state, vary in colors (golden, silvery, red and black).
it supposed to be copper,nickel and gold, i made sure no kovar was there.

as anode, i used a copper slab.

the electrolyte is 5% solution of sulfuric acid.
Harold, as a comment you made about the electrolyte , i learnd that as long as the cathod and anode are in and doing their thing, the concentration of copper in the solution will remain the same, that can be noted also by the color of solution (lite blue) that remains the same.

under the anode i placed a small plastic evapotation dish (with some copper wires to keep it submerged, but changed it later with some pieces of glass from a broken stirring rod) to collect the goods.
there are some floaters, but only because i played with the anode. maybe i'll use a porous barrier next time, but dosn't seems very needed as long as i don't tuch the anode.

the cell is running on a cell-phone charger, 5V / 1A


now for some picture and construction of the cell:

the anode and cathod is hanged with some steel rods that ware placed in grooves on the lips of the container.
as you can see in the picture, the cell is runing on full capacity of the charger.





this is the copper slab (cathod), at first and after the 2 first hours of work, you can see in the dish what seems to be pretty pure copper (very fluffy), came right off with a squeeze bottle, leaving the the slab clean.
afterward, i had to clean the cathod every hour or so.






the project is still in a learning and experimenting mode , and i'm open to ideas and suggestions.
as expected, the stripping (or more correctly, recovering of copper) is slow process and maybe suitable and more economic for larger scale operation.

i'll update when finish with this nugget and how i treat the residue on the bottom of the dish.


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## Anonymous (Feb 24, 2010)

is that red powder in the bottom the slimes from the copper, or copper that dropped off of the cathode? does not look like you have a seperator between the cathode and anode to keep the copper that falls off the cathode from mixing with the gold/silver particles that fall off the anode.

I would also increase the copper sulfate in your electrolyte, you can use old copper chloride from the AP process to do this, just mix with sulfuric acid and boil the HCL will boil off and leave you copper/nickel sulfate.

Jim


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## samuel-a (Feb 24, 2010)

i can see the confusion.
from the anode, everything is falling down to an a collecting dish.

this is not the same dish in the photo (no. 4).
in the photo is the copper that cemented on the cathod and rinsed down.

from the cathod, nothing is falling, and even if it will, it will not mix with the PM's in the collecting dish.

here is a scheme:


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## Anonymous (Feb 24, 2010)

Now that you point it out to me, I see that the small container was in the larger one. I would let you know though that it would be possible for some of your gold to migrate over to the cathode area because of the small size of some particles and there will be a flow of liquid in the electrolyte induced by the flow of electrons.

I like the possibilities of this if the copper is recoverable and salable could work with just the simple chemicals. Would be nice if the gold could content was higher, like from maybe gold filled material.

Anyways, looks nice to me.

Jim


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## samuel-a (Feb 24, 2010)

thank you.
i did noticed a flow in the liquid, and i don't rule out the possibility that some PM's is migrating toward the cathod.
wather it's cementing on the cathod or not i don't know.
i'll try next time to use a porous cup to see if it catche's somthing.

at the end, i'll melt the copper that came out of the cathod and see...
i wonder how a botton of copper should look like when it's contaminated with a bit of gold or silver or both, and alloyed real good.


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## 4metals (Feb 24, 2010)

Copper sulfate plating baths are a great way to recover the PM's in copper based refiners bars. One guy I consult for gets in gold plated lead trim which is on pure copper base metal. When I first met him he was digesting this stuff in nitric and using a lot of acid. Now he melts the scrap into anodes 1 inch by 3 inches by 18 inches long and recovers the copper. Plus he knows the assay for the bars before they go into the shop, not like the old days when he knew the content only when it came back form the shop. 

almost forgot where I was going with this :roll: he is able to process different jobs at once in the same cell by bagging the anodes separately. You can have anode bags made of a variety of baths for surprisingly little cash. For example anode bags of heavy polypropylene for anodes of this size, 1 x 3 x 20 with drawstring ties, cost $2.95 each. And they're custom made. Check out this guys website, he supplies all different fabrics and explains which fabrics are good for which solutions http://www.anodeproducts.com

He also sells titanium anode hooks.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 24, 2010)

You probably have about 0.1% gold, 3% nickel, and about 97% copper. In a highly acidic sulfuric solution, the nickel will dissolve but it won't plate out. The copper dissolves and plates out. If the pins were made of brass, this wouldn't work, due to the added zinc and/or tin. If you add other metals that will dissolve and co-deposit, you will soon have the deposited metal sloughing off the cathode, floating in the solution like t**ds (that's what it looks like), and shorting out the electrodes. It will only work for the pure system you have now.

I think that all 4 of these things are absolutely necessary to achieve any success in doing this.

(1) The solution makeup you're using will never produce a decent copper deposit on the cathode. For best results, I would suggest starting with a solution designed for getting a proper solid deposit. Here's a post I made that details a common solution makeup used in a copper refinery. You can vary this somewhat but, if you want this to work, the starting solution will be very similar to what is given. The main thing that controls the characteristics of the copper deposit is the solution makeup.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5396&p=46132&hilit=anaconda#p46132

(2) As 4metals intimated, you must use a metal that is inert in the sulfuric to hang the copper anode on. Titanium is one of the few metals that will work for this. The copper wire you are using will soon dissolve and the anode will fall to the bottom. You could drill a hole in the bar and use copper wire to hang it, but the wire and the top part of the bar will have to be kept out of the solution.

(3) As 4metals said, you must use an anode bag to catch the gold particles and prevent them from co-mingling with the rest of the stuff in the tank. Your primary goal is to get the gold. Keep it confined so you don't lose it.

(4) For best results, you must use the proper temperature, cathode current density, and anode to cathode ratio.

For only these 3 metals, there is no need to use a porous cup or membrane. If you start properly, this will work.

This isn't an intuitive thing. You can't just pull things out of your butt and use them (5% sulfuric, 1 amp, etc.). The copper refining cell is one of the most studied technological systems in history. To do this properly, you are foolish not to use all of the tons of info that is readily available to you. Don't try to re-invent the wheel, at least in this case.


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## Scott2357 (Feb 24, 2010)

What is the optimum voltage/current for this process?


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 24, 2010)

If you have a 2:1 anode:cathode ratio, if the solution makeup is proper, and if all the other parameters are within range, the proper cathode current density is about 12 to 16 amps per square foot (it's in the link I gave). Here again, if everything is set up properly, the voltage will automatically fall into line. I would guess it would be about 2 to 3 volts. The amperage is primarily what's important - that's what creates the deposit. 

The primary thing is to dissolve the copper and collect the gold in a bag. The secondary thing is to deposit the copper in a solid form. Although you might be able to sell copper in this form, that's not the main reason for doing it. If it doesn't deposit in a solid form, it will slough off or fall off as a powder and will interfere with the working of the cell and the gold collection.

Usually, when someone first tries this with a poor setup, all goes well for an hour, or so. They then think they have a workable system. However, for this to work, it may have to run for days. Consider that for each amp run for 1 hour, only 1.185 grams of copper dissolves and plates out - it takes awhile to do this. When they try running for longer periods, they find that things get progressively worse and, at some point, it gets so bad that they have to shut the system down. If you do everything right, this system will work essentially forever - or, at least, until contaminants, such as the nickel, build up in the solution to a level that causes problems.


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## Harold_V (Feb 25, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> When they try running for longer periods, they find that things get progressively worse and, at some point, it gets so bad that they have to shut the system down.


It's much easier to tell them than to have them believe it's true. 
What Chris said is exactly what I experienced. 

Harold


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## nickvc (Feb 25, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > When they try running for longer periods, they find that things get progressively worse and, at some point, it gets so bad that they have to shut the system down.
> ...


I must admit i had the same problems with my first trial,i,ve alloyed my gold filled down with more copper but still have 7% zinc in the bar which im sure will cause problems.The basis of cell refining is high purity of the metal to be recovered whether its gold,silver or copper as the other elements present foul the solution eventually :evil:


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## samuel-a (Feb 25, 2010)

wow... thank you for the vote of confidence...

listen, you guys are the only viable source of information that i was able to find about copper recovery (and PM's), information that covers all of the parameters, without missing a bit.
i did researched and trying to understand as much as possible before i started with this project and upload it in order to perfect it to the known standarts and not to re-invent enything.
i guess the info was pulled from someone's ass, but not mine... 8) 
in all of the sources there was no info about: , electrolyte concentration, A:C ratio, working power and and temp', effects of more reactive metals, additives to the solution etc. 

i'm now awar of the improvments that need's to be done, but have more questions first as i'm not a chemist or electronics guy.
i hope that you guys find the patience to answer or to reffer me to sources. pls bare with me.

1. in the link you (GSP) added to your post there is a common furmulation of the electrolyte and working conditions, is this universal formula or should be changed according to the type of alloy of the anode?

2. how does one can know the amount of pentahydrate (CuSO4.5H2O) in the solution ? or how much CuSO4 crystals sould be dissolved?

3. by Anode to Cathod ratio, i take it that you mean the ratio between the surface area of the two...?

4. how can one produce a DC power supplay with a constant current and changing voltage? im no electrician but this dosn't sound right to me... maybe vise versa...?
let's say i have anode and cathod in 2:1 like you mentioned, anode = 50 sq.in. and cathod 25 = sq. in. what will be the favorite voltage and current?

5. how can one produce 0.2-0.5 Volts and >10 Amps? which machinery can do that?

thank you very much.
SAMUEL


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 25, 2010)

This might help you on #4 & #5. butcher hasmade some good posts on this subject.



> Posted by butcher
> I will try to explain something best I can.
> two light bulbs, or resistor's, or resistive loads (electrolytic cells) etcetera.
> 
> ...



http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=6096&p=53385&hilit=bulb#p53385

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=bulb&terms=all&author=Butcher&sv=0&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Hope this helps.


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## butcher (Feb 26, 2010)

Power supplies can be built for constant voltage and a variable current, or they can be built for a constant current and variable voltage, an example here lets look at battery chargers, a lead acid battery charger uses constant voltage, the current will vary (as the battery cells resistance changes), the amperage or power is limited by the size of the transformer, on the other hand we have a nickel cadmium battery charger they have a constant current and the voltage varies,

Both of these will be very similar in design with a few minor differences.

As far as building a supply with a certain voltage output we can pick the transformer, or rewind the secondary winding on a transformer, remember the size of the transformer determines current it is capable of supplying without burning up, wire size is also part of this picture, the turns of wire in a transformer determine what voltage it will be, another way to change voltage is with an auto transformer or variac, these have a moveable tap on the transformer winding and can be adjusted, these are usually wired in to adjust the primary voltage of the step down transformer,

Current can be limited using a resistor, these can be several and tapped or switched in the circuit, to change currents, a transistor circuit can also be made to regulate the current, a trick is with using a light bulb in series, these will not only limit the current with the lamps filament resistance but also have an added benefit as an indicator of the current in your electrolysis cell, or circuit, and will also protect your power supply from short circuits, you can short out the circuit and the light just lights full bright, this is a trick I use for troubleshooting problems in electronic circuits, 

Off track here say you have a problem in your old truck something in the head light circuit is shorted out, you are having a time trying to find it, every time you put in a new fuse and turn on the lights the fuse blows--- pull out your bag of tricks wire a light bulb across the fuse holder, pull on the light switch, as long as the circuit is shorted, this lamp across fuse terminals will be lit when you remove the short the light will go out, if there is only a partial short (resistance in the circuit the light will be dim, ok back to subject,

a constant voltage power supply can be made by limiting the transformer size , but for better regulation will need to be done in the circuit with a voltage regulator, or transistor circuit.

An electrolysis cell will need a filtered direct current, diodes or bridge rectifier and large filtering capacitors.
Power supplies are easy to build, but if you don't know how, it would be a daunting task, power supplies are in about everything electronic and are all around us, and if I did not know how to build them, and did not want to spend high amounts of gold on one I would take one scrapped from another piece of junk or modify one already built, also cells can be modified to fit a supply, first you will need a specification for your design and work with that, for a small cell a battery charger, and lamps or resistors will work, also batteries are one of the best regulated direct current sources there is, a battery charger here will keep it going,


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## Oz (Feb 26, 2010)

Samuel,

Just a thought here, and it may be a non-issue. You mentioned that the pins you melted were free from iron and consisted of I believe copper, nickel, and gold. To get “pins” that were sure to be free of iron did you perhaps choose pins that make spring type connections like in computers that grab and hold cards? The reason I ask is because these are made with beryllium copper, the dust of which is a serious health risk as Harold can attest to with OSHA requirements to machine it. 

So beyond throwing it out there for those that do not know about the dust hazard of beryllium copper, I am curious if anyone here knows what hazard there is or is not in melting it and what does it do in a copper cell with dilute sulfuric such as you built.


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## qst42know (Feb 26, 2010)

Oz said:


> So beyond throwing it out there for those that do not know about the dust hazard of beryllium copper, I am curious if anyone here knows what hazard there is or is not in melting it and what does it do in a copper cell with dilute sulfuric such as you built.



Fumes from a beryllium melt are also a hazard. This is a deceptive problem not all exposures will result in health problems but some individuals can be sensitized by casual minor exposure. Very dangerous stuff.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/80th/beryllium.html


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## samuel-a (Feb 26, 2010)

thank you very much barren and butcher for the electrical info.
i just might put my hand on a rectifier that can work 0-15 Volts... but has a max of 3 Amps.
i'll can give it a go next weekend and see if there any effect of a lower voltage .


Oz, yes, you are correct, this are mostly pins from mother boards , the ones that used to in the plastic slots to hold cards and only partially plated.
melting them produced a lot of smoke so i used a dust mask and a fan to blow everything away from me.
about the beryllium , i don't know for sure, but i think it's higher on the EMS then copper, which mean that it's probably goes in to solution, like zinc does.
can some one confirm that?

about the dust, they don't really create dust when plunking them out....
i twist back and forth the entire plastic casing until they snap in the bottom.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 26, 2010)

samuel-a,



> 1. in the link you (GSP) added to your post there is a common furmulation of the electrolyte and working conditions, is this universal formula or should be changed according to the type of alloy of the anode?


The formula I gave is below. Although I've used very similar formulas myself, I got this one from the internet. It was used by one of the major copper refiners. This formula is ideal. You may be able to stray a little, but why would you do that? It's very easy to make this up as it is written. You might try running at room temperature (at least 70 F), though.

I would suggest you use the quantities of CuSO4.5H2O and H2SO4 as listed. The Cl- is very touchy (an excess will cause problems, although I don't know exactly what these are) and it figures to only using about 0.05-0.10 ml (1 to 2 drops) of HCl per liter of solution. The Cl- helps with the anode dissolving uniformly, I think. If you use tap water, there's probably enough Cl- in it already (with some tap water, though, there may be too much). Therefore, I wouldn't add any extra. The thiourea and bone glue are grain refiners and they produce a smoother cathode deposit. Without them, the deposit will be more nodular. If the deposit is OK without then, don't add them. All in all, you may be fine with just the copper sulfate and the sulfuric.

With just the Au, Ni, and Cu in the anode, it should work fine. I am almost 100% sure that the Ni won't deposit and cause problems at that H2SO4 concentration. I have never tried to run this solution with Ni in the anode but, when the pH is reduced in a standard nickel sulfate plating solution, the cathode efficiency (amount of nickel deposited per amp-min) dramatically decreases. At some point the Ni ceases depositing altogether. A problem with the nickel could be that, if it doesn't plate, it's presence could decrease the cathode efficiency of the copper and could therefore possibly increase the amount of copper in the solution. I don't know this for sure.

If you throw other metals into the mix, like Fe or Zn, I guarantee you'll soon have problems. Not with the dissolving but with the deposit. There's no variation in the solution makeup, that I know of, that will solve these problems. In thinking about this, there may be some sort of chelating agent that could be used to tie up everything but copper in the solution, but I doubt it. A membrane can be used as a separator to eliminate the cathode deposit problems.

With few exceptions, when plating, it's usually best to start out and maintain the ingredients and the operating parameters at about the middle points of the ranges given.

CuSO4.5H2O = 100-160 g/l
H2SO4 = 180-250 g/l (I calculate this as about 10-14% conc. H2SO4, by volume)
[Cl-] (added as HCl) = .02-.05 g/l
Thiourea = .0001-.0005 g/l
Bone glue = .0001-.0010 g/l
Temp. = 55-65 C
Cathode Current Density = 130-170 A/m2 (12-16 amps/square foot = 0.083 - 0.111 amps/square inch)



> 2. how does one can know the amount of pentahydrate (CuSO4.5H2O) in the solution ? or how much CuSO4 crystals sould be dissolved?



In a standard acid copper plating bath, which contains the same ingredients, the H2SO4 is first titrated with a NaOH solution and an acid/base indicator. Then the specific gravity of the solution is measured. From a chart, the CuSO4.5H2O can then be determined.

I would probably use CuSO4.5H2O (blue vitriol, bluestone) for makeup. I guess you could use anhydrous CuSO4 but it's probably more expensive. If you use CuSO4, only use 64% as much.



> 3. by Anode to Cathod ratio, i take it that you mean the ratio between the surface area of the two...?



Yes. When calculating this, only consider the surfaces of the electrodes facing each other. In plating, to prevent things like low anode corrosion rates, a 2/1, anode/cathode surface area ratio is usually used. If you do stray from this, it's better to have a little too much anode area.

Just remember that the amperage is determined by the cathode area and not the anode area.



> 4. how can one produce a DC power supplay with a constant current and changing voltage? im no electrician but this dosn't sound right to me... maybe vise versa...?
> let's say i have anode and cathod in 2:1 like you mentioned, anode = 50 sq.in. and cathod 25 = sq. in. what will be the favorite voltage and current?



I have never used a constant voltage or constant current power supply for any electrolytical system and never will. I have never used a battery charger and never will. I'm an old plater and will always use a continuously variable rectifier. It has a voltmeter, an ammeter, a single knob for adjustment, and a fuse to protect the ammeter in case you short the electrodes. That's it. Very simple. If you turn the knob all the way down, both meters read zero. As you turn up the amperage, the voltage automatically increases to a level based on the amperage applied and the resistance in the system. Most platers still use this type of power supply, although some have digital readouts and controls - in essence, though, they are the same thing. 



> 5. how can one produce 0.2-0.5 Volts and >10 Amps? which machinery can do that?


Why on earth would you want to do this? Are you thinking that you could just plate out the Cu and not exceed the minimum deposition voltages of the Zn, etc. Good luck. If you can find a list of these, the numbers are based on pure systems. In reality, they are very dependent on the parameters of the bath. These can vary from hour-to-hour or day-to-day. I don't see how you could predict anything. I would just run stuff without Zn, etc., in it, set everything up right, determine the proper amps, and let the voltage fall where it may. If you have zinc, etc., use a membrane and don't plate anything out.


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## samuel-a (Feb 26, 2010)

Thank you Chris.
that a first class info.

thank you very much for your help.

i'll try to keep this thread up to date.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 2, 2010)

samuel-a said:


> Oz, yes, you are correct, this are mostly pins from mother boards , the ones that used to in the plastic slots to hold cards and only partially plated.
> melting them produced a lot of smoke so i used a dust mask and a fan to blow everything away from me.
> ....
> i twist back and forth the entire plastic casing until they snap in the bottom.



Two things...

1. Pins used on motherboards is usually made of brass to give stiffness and the spring force necessary to make a good electrical contact. That means that you have a lot of zinc in your melt.

2. An easy way to remove the pins from the contact housing is to pull them out of the bottom. If you remove the contacts by melting the tin and pulling them off the motherboard then it is easy to pull them one or a few at a time. An alternative is to just rip the contact housing off the pins when still on the board. It takes a bit of force but then you can cut the plated top of the pins with a plier.

I have been thinking a lot about using a copper cell for gold refining. There is one argument for not being too concerned with the exact cell chemistry. Our goal isn't to produce clean copper, we want to use it for removing base metals. With that in mind, is there any reason to melt the pins? If they are only partially plated the base metals should be dissolved if it just lies in a pile on a titanium electrode. After a while the gold foils should be loose when enough base metal have dissolved and a gentle shake should make them float away and drop to the bottom. It would also eliminate the problem with microscopic gold particles that don't settle.
Ten years ago I made an experiment along these lines. I made a gold wire (didn't know about titanium then) put it in the bottom of a glass jar, added some pins on the bottom of the jar and a copper wire suspended above it. I made an electrolyte according to the data from copper baths and then applied a weak current. I pulled out 20-30 grams of copper in a large cauliflower looking lump. Very dense. The electrolyte changed from blue to green, probably from the dissolved zinc.
I never finished the experiment but I still have the jar with loose gold foil and remnants of pins. Some day I'll restart it to see if it will work.

Good luck and let us know how it works out in the end. I'm following your experiment with interest.

/Göran


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## Irons (Mar 2, 2010)

That fluffy copper isn't totally worthless. It makes a good reducing agent to scrub dilute solutions of PGMs.


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## samuel-a (Mar 2, 2010)

hi goran

you are correct about the target of that process, which is to recover the gold on 1st priority, and the copper at 2nd.
the copper deposites are far from perfect, but on the other hand, it does not hurt the cell functionality, and the cathod need's to be cleand every 2 hours or so in order for the deposits won't fall off the cathod and swing arount in the containers bottom.
even though it is a bit more labor, it doesn't hurt, a few secunds of cleanup each time.

wether i have zinc in the solution or not, as far as i know from the internet only, nothing will plate out on copper but copper at any given voltage, but this is not confirmed.

the anode lost about 30%-35% by now after about 36-40 operating hours.
so far it's functioning ok.

the fluffy copper (like irons said) can be used for inquarting or recover of PM's from very dirty pregnant solution or to precipitate silver from silver nitrate solution, or to be melted and sold for No.1 copper.


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2010)

Copper sludge is salable, I have found local scrap yard that will buy it.
No need to trough it away, I am sure that with the price of metals you can also find someone local to buy, they may want to reserve payment until they get paid, did that once then I am trusted.

They also are buying copper grindings off of boards from me.
I made a rig like a thickness planer to run the sheared off boards through
yielding powdered copper with some solder.

Jim


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## samuel-a (Mar 7, 2010)

the oparating status of the test cell:
- a 500ml solution of 5% sulfuric acid was preperd (later i added more acid to match GPS comments)
- the copper sulfate concentration was not pre-determined by me, i just let the electrolyte set the % of copper to be dissolved at any given time.
- 1 drop of HCL
- anode:cathod ratio was about 1:1, with a colecting dish under the anode
- operating power: 5V , 1A (max)

as i mentioned erlier, the primary goal it to extract the gold , well, as you can see in the photo below, most of it is in the collecting dish.
as the anode surface area gradually got smaller the dissolution got faster, but also relesed spongy chuncks of copper (metalic) from the anode (see photo).
therefore, an anode bag or even maybe dialysis membrane should be used for a collecting element.




with the use of a collecting bag, the cathod doesn't even have to be cleaned, and one can leave the copper to sludge off the cathod to the bottom of the cell.

the sludge in the collecting dish ware washed 3x with water, then 2x with HCL, again water , and then HCL+Cl.
gold content confirmed. 
the yield is not measurable (only 50 grams of pins) and not as important as proving the theory.


if i'll tray it again i'll definitely do it on a larger scale and according to GSP recommendations.

thank you all for your help and comments.
any further questions and comments are wellcomed.


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## MountainMike (Sep 27, 2010)

Irons said:


> That fluffy copper isn't totally worthless. It makes a good reducing agent to scrub dilute solutions of PGMs.


What have you found to be the most effective way to use this "fluffy copper" on dilute solutions? ~m


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## HAuCl4 (Sep 27, 2010)

Doesn't this electrolysis take far too long and cost too much compared to stripping with cyanide as per GSP instructions?. This seems viable only for someone that runs a copper cell already for whatever reason and the gold recovered is a bonus. Yes/No/maybe?.

The copper fluff in big quantities can be melt into a bar as well using a crucible with some charcoal powder as oxidation protection. One could inquart with it as well.


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## MountainMike (Sep 27, 2010)

4metals said:


> Copper sulfate plating baths are a great way to recover the PM's in copper based refiners bars. One guy I consult for gets in gold plated lead trim which is on pure copper base metal. When I first met him he was digesting this stuff in nitric and using a lot of acid. Now he melts the scrap into anodes 1 inch by 3 inches by 18 inches long and recovers the copper. Plus he knows the assay for the bars before they go into the shop, not like the old days when he knew the content only when it came back form the shop.
> 
> almost forgot where I was going with this :roll: he is able to process different jobs at once in the same cell by bagging the anodes separately. You can have anode bags made of a variety of baths for surprisingly little cash. For example anode bags of heavy polypropylene for anodes of this size, 1 x 3 x 20 with drawstring ties, cost $2.95 each. And they're custom made. Check out this guys website, he supplies all different fabrics and explains which fabrics are good for which solutions http://www.anodeproducts.com
> 
> He also sells titanium anode hooks.


In designing a larger cell, it seems most anodes are somewhat like 4Metals has listed above. So, using those measurements would the cathode be .5 X 1.5 X 18, to arrive at the 2:1 ratio (a:c), and if that then what would be the current density? ~m


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## MountainMike (Sep 28, 2010)

I would appreciate some feedback about building a copper sulphate cell.

I have found a plastic type laundry sink at Lowes Building Supplies. It measures 25 x 22 (front) x 23 (depth) on metal legs to give a total heighth of 34". It is made by Swanstone and holds 22 gallons. What do you think about that as the plating tank?

I envision using 2 anodes and 3 cathodes (maybe more electrodes later) using the Moebius system. My thought is to bag both the anodes and cathodes (to contain the "fluffy" copper). What would be some suggestions on the size of the anodes and cathodes? I have a 80 amp. rectifier. I also would like some suggestions on best spacing of the electrodes. Your input is needed and appreciated. ~m

ps: I have very limited interest in the copper. A "good plate" is immaterial. The primary interest of course is the "slimes".


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## GrailSeeker (Sep 28, 2010)

Try to use thick plastic gloves when handling DC, especially with minerals in. Had you been working with a few hundrends of mAmps would be ok, but here we are talking about whole 2-3 A. If you eventually short yourself somehow, effects may vary from a small pinch to an electric shock.

DC = CAUTION


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## MountainMike (Sep 28, 2010)

Thank you for the safety reminder, It just takes once sometimes. I have the gloves you referenced and I have some plastic raised flooring that should help keep me from grounding myself. My practice will be to turn off the rectifier when making adjustments and harvesting. ~m


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## Barren Realms 007 (Sep 28, 2010)

GrailSeeker said:


> Try to use thick plastic gloves when handling DC, especially with minerals in. Had you been working with a few hundrends of mAmps would be ok, but here we are talking about whole 2-3 A. If you eventually short yourself somehow, effects may vary from a small pinch to, well...
> 
> DC = :evil:



A few milliamp across the heart at the right moment can stop the heart.


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## GrailSeeker (Sep 28, 2010)

The heart can be resuscitated with an equal amount of shock provided that someone is nearby. Fractured tissue cells cannot. One can bleed to death. So :!: CAUTION :!:


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## MountainMike (Sep 28, 2010)

Remember this saying... One rule is keep one hand in your pocket while doing with the other, thus preventing current flow across your chest, and thus your heart. ... ~m


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 28, 2010)

I just spent a lot of time on the internet searching for electrical safety information when using low voltage D.C. current. By low voltage, I mean in the range of 2-8V, the typical voltage range used in electroplating, electrowinning, or electrorefining. I didn't have much luck. In one place, they said that anything under 42 VDC was safe. Another said 24VDC. I found no definitive answer.

I was in the plating industry for 10 yrs and have probably spent time in several 100 plating shops. Many of the plating operations in these shops used 1000ADC, or more, but most only used from 3 to 6VDC. Since then, I owned 2 plating shops and I have setup and run many, many electrolytic metal recovery and refining systems. For example, the standard 30 gal. silver cells I have used all my life operated at 250ADC @ 3-4VDC. In my life, I never heard of anyone being hurt or even being shocked from any of these low voltage DC systems. The safety emphasis was always on chemicals and never on the DC electrical setup. Although I never thought much about it, I'm sure that many times I have touched both the anode and cathode, at the same time, and never got as much as a slight tingle. 

Please note that I am only talking about the DC output. The AC input is another story.

The reason I bring this up is that the present discussion could frighten novices into not attempting to use these low voltage DC electrolytic systems. If there is, or is not, a danger, it should be addressed.

Does anyone, with genuine knowledge about this subject, have a definitive answer to all this? All I have is 45 years of experience working with these DC power supplies. Like I said, I just never thought about it since it never seemed to be a problem.


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## rusty (Sep 28, 2010)

Ive burned hundreds of pounds of 7018 welding rod from my Lincoln portable welder in wet weather standing in water or mud with not so much as a tickle at 200 amps welding new grouser bars or ice picks onto cat tracks.


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## GrailSeeker (Sep 28, 2010)

GSP,

Voltage difference between two points is the cause, current flow from one point to the other is the effect. 
Insulate the parts of your body that are exposed to physical contact with conductive material at all times. don't do this bare-foot and usually stand on insulated material. 

The main point is that you simply cannot keep in mind all parameters that affect current flow. If you draw too much of it you might burn a fuse or your charger, but never would you want to be the part of the circuit.
Every person is a different case of conductor material. There is too much to write about. 

I don't see anything wrong with pointing out the obvious. Gloves and work well within the device's ratings.


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## Platdigger (Sep 29, 2010)

I was all wet one time in a metal shute, at a saw mill, welding bars in the big chain and felt some pretty good "tingles".
Got the job done though.
Was probably running around 120 to 150 amps.
Not sure about the voltage, but I am guessing around 35v.


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## jimdoc (Sep 29, 2010)

My father was an electric technician and he told me he always respected both AC and DC.I guess it is safer to think like that, and not get a surprise.
Especially a deadly surprise.

Jim


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## rusty (Sep 29, 2010)

Platdigger said:


> I was all wet one time in a metal shute, at a saw mill, welding bars in the big chain and felt some pretty good "tingles".
> Got the job done though.
> Was probably running around 120 to 150 amps.
> Not sure about the voltage, but I am guessing around 35v.




Were you using an AC or DC machine. An AC welder can have an open circuit upwards to 80 volts. 

Have any of you ever been bit by an electric fencer, or a hot spark plug wire.


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## Harold_V (Sep 29, 2010)

The amperage potential of a circuit doesn't make a difference so long as resistance is high enough, which it is with the human body. In order for enough amperage to flow to a critical level, voltage must be increased. I would expect that anything under 50V would be perfectly safe to handle, although you might feel a tingle at the higher end. 

Hold a 9V battery with a finger bridging both terminals. You feel nothing. Touch the same terminals to your tongue (much lower resistance) and you feel a shock. 

It's been years since I took an electricity class (1955, in fact), but as I recall Ohm's law, it takes 1 volt to push one amp through one ohm of resistance. 

Using my Triplett model 630 PL meter, I just measured anywhere from 230,000 to 550,000 ohms of resistance between my two hands. The difference was in how much surface skin surface I exposed to the probes. 

The human body is not a good conductor of electricity, therefore a high voltage is required to transfer enough amperage to be lethal (it is amperage that kills, not voltage). That voltage would vary, of course, depending on many conditions, but it should be safe for the average guy to handle low voltages without worry. 

Harold


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## MountainMike (Sep 29, 2010)

Now that we are at peace with the safety issues, back to the main topic, designing a larger copper sulphate cell.

There is a Google library book, "Metallurgical and Chemical Engineering", Volumn 9, No. 9. I think GSP listed the link, I am sorry, I can not find it for you. On page 444 is an excellent discription along with anode and cathode measurements, electrical requirments, and process procedures for the Moebius style (Thum style on next page) of cell.

A brief quote "The Moebius cell...(size about 24 in. by 26 in. and 22 in. deep.) In each cell are suspended four sets of four anodes (14 in. by 5.5 in. by 3/8 in. and five rolled sheet cathodes (cathode surface 18 sq. ft.)"

It is my intent to follow the sizes given above but using only 2 anodes and 3 cathodes (all bagged) to test the design. My material varies a lot and is probably about 80% (just a guess) copper. My interest in the copper sulphate cell is to use it as a way to separate most of the copper from the slime. Any feedback to this idea would be appreciated. ~m


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 29, 2010)

MountainMike,

http://books.google.com/books?id=a5DmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA8&dq=metallurgical+and+chemical+engineering&hl=en&ei=gzajTKmeA4r2tgOuwfX5Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Type in 444 at the top and hit enter

The Moebius and Balbach-Thum cells are *SILVER* cells named for their inventors. The main difference between the 2 is that the Moebius electrodes are run vertically and the Thum electrodes are run horizontally. These cells have nothing to do with copper electrorefining. The setup, conditions, and problems with doing Ag or Cu are different. Don't confuse the two.

After re-reading 4metals' post, he was talking about melting parts that were Au plated on *PURE* copper. To me, this high Cu purity is the main reason the guy was successful. In your case, the copper is only 80% and you're going to have big problems controlling the cathode deposit. Once the cell has been running for a short while and the impurities build up in the solution, you're going to have a mess. The Cu++ will plate in the form of slime and will slide off the cathode. Some of this Cu will form in t*rd-like lumps which will float and can short out the electrodes. The reason they float is that they contain gas bubbles produced at the less-than-100%-efficient cathode reaction.

I think your concerns about electrode spacing, etc., are putting the cart before the horse.

Before spending the money, time, and effort building the large cell that you propose, I would set up 2 cathodes and 1 anode (or, 1 of each) in a plastic bucket. Use the proper starting solution, current density, bag the anode, etc. Let it run for a couple of days and just see what really happens. Many people, when trying this, run the cell for only 30 minutes, or so, and it seems to work. It's going to take quite a few hours to dissolve those bars and the proof of the process will be in running it continuously for a long time. I don't see this happening. At 80 amps, it will take about 180 hours to completely dissolve those 4 anodes of the size you suggested. And that's assuming 100% anode efficiency, which you'll never achieve.

You might think that a way to make this work would be to also bag the cathodes to confine the Cu deposit. However, if the bag touches the cathode, the Cu will plate though the bag fabric and this will create another series of big problems. In electrowinning, they build a cathode frame out of some rigid plastic and enclose it in a bag. The frame is made wide enough so the cathode hangs freely in the frame and doesn't touch anything. However, in electrowinning, the impurities are slight and the cathode deposit is adherent and solid. In your case, the bag would soon fill up with fluffy Cu and you'd be back to square one.

The only way I know of to run this is to separate the anode and cathode chambers with an anodic membrane. That way, no Cu solution comes in contact with the cathode, nothing plates out, and you wouldn't have to worry about any Cu slimes. However, building a proper membrane tank is quite a feat in itself and the membranes aren't cheap.


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## MountainMike (Sep 29, 2010)

GSP:
Thank you for your detailed reply. I understand that the Moebius and Thum are designed for silver.
I think the concept they represent can be adapted to a small backyard type operation for breaking down anode bars of as little as 50% (maybe lower) copper. I do not look on this as copper electro refining . I view it as much more of a way of getting the anode slimes cheaply.

Your thought about the copper deposit plating thru the cathode bag by contact is valid, if, in fact the cathode is growing crystals. I feel that because the cathode will produce fluffy, loose material that will slide off the cathode, this plating thru the bag may not happen. Your idea of using a frame to hold the bag away from the cathode is probably a must, especially on the startup when the electrolyte is fresh , the cathode may in fact grow some crystals. 

Your suggestion of doing a test using 2 cathodes and 1 anode is reasonable. Why not do two things at once and use this as a time to test cathode, anode size also. It is stated in the book that they used 14 in. by 5.5 in. by 3/8 in. and cathode surface of 18 sq. ft.. Do you agree with that? What would be the size of the cathode if I used only one anode?

Your paragraph about the membrane is intriguing. I have some bisque ceramic cookie jars that should work as a membrane I did a little test using an assay clay crucible (6 in. x 3 in.). It worked after a fashion but I felt the melting flask was contaminated with whatever. When I try that again I will bag the bisque container also.. This would be a modified fizzer cell.

Well, as Steve likes to say, “the proof is in the pudding”. So, I need to get started. ~m

ps: what would be the weight of the 4 anodes?


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 29, 2010)

You can run twice as many amps with 2 cathodes and 1 anode as you can with 1 of each. With 1 of each, you can only consider the side of the anode facing the cathode. With 2 cathodes, one on each side of the anode, you can consider both sides of the anode when calculating how much current to apply.

The actual size of the electrodes doesn't make much difference. Just use anodes and cathodes that have about the same surface area. Only calculate the surface areas on the sides that are facing each other and not the backs.

My reason for the bucket test was so you could get an idea of what is happening before gearing up to full scale. I wanted you to see the mess after running this for an extended period of time. Consider it a learning experiment.

A cubic inch of copper weighs about .32 pounds. Each anode is 14x5.5x.375= 28.9 cu.in. or 9.2 pounds. All 4 would weigh about 37 pounds. At 100% efficiency, 1 amp will dissolve or deposit 1.18 g of copper per hour. 80 amps will do 94 g/hr. 37# is 16,800 g. Therefore, it will take at least 16,800/94 = 179 hours.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I don't think this will work as a breakdown cell as a silver cell does. Just wait until you try to deal will all those fluffy slimes and floating copper t*rds.


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## MountainMike (Sep 29, 2010)

GSP:

Thank you for this additional information. I also thank you for humoring me, I always had to learn the hard way.

I have a cement vibrator. What would be your thoughts about placing it next to the cell, or even enclosed in a pvc pipe and put directly into the electrolytic. It may allow/cause the hydrogen bubbles to escape to the atmosphere . It probably would make a bigger mess then what I am facing. ~m


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## Harold_V (Sep 30, 2010)

MountainMike said:


> GSP:
> 
> Thank you for this additional information. I also thank you for humoring me, I always had to learn the hard way.


At the risk of repeating myself, I have experienced the precise thing Chris has mentioned in his posts. Parting impure copper is a task that is not successful in the long term, although you do get respectable results initially. 

I abandoned the quest to do so after spending a huge amount of time and having built two cells. The level of contaminants in the copper creates a mess that I was unable to overcome. 

Harold


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## samuel-a (Sep 30, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> MountainMike said:
> 
> 
> > GSP:
> ...



so what the bigboys are doing... ?
how do they deal with refiner's bar ?


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## HAuCl4 (Sep 30, 2010)

I understand the big boys are using solvent extraction selective for copper, these days, to clean up the electrolyte on a continuous loop.

I'm with GSP and Harold on this matter: Copper sulphate cells and loops are a money and time losing proposition except for the biggest scale operators.


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 30, 2010)

The refiners assay the refiner's bars and pulps and ship them to a primary copper smelter, whose main business is ore, blister Cu, etc. These smelters are mainly in Europe (Belgium, e.g.). The smelter assays them and then simply blends them into their primary copper flow. The heavy concentration of impurities in the bars becomes considerably diluted from the primary copper flow and allows everything to be run through a cellhouse.

Although there may be some, I have never heard of any PM refiner that treats the bars themselves, at least on a large scale. The copper smelters are honest (since the refiner knows exactly what his values are) and pay top dollar (they even pay for the copper) so there is no economical reason for a refiner to go to the great expense of setting up to do them inhouse. Also, I would doubt that anyone could set up to do them as a service for the refiners and be able to compete with the smelters. The only advantage would be time, since the smelters take about 3 months. However, after assaying everything, the smelters will advance money with interest at the going rate. It's an excellent system for the refiners.

Years ago, I did hear of a refiner in NM that was breaking them down in a dilute sulfuric acid membrane cell and then cementing the Cu with Fe.


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## HAuCl4 (Sep 30, 2010)

One could use those bars to inquart and that way recover the gold and silver slowly. I'd pay 50% of the gold content for those and not in great quantities.

GSP has suggested in the past to leach the gold out of the contacts with cyanide instead of melting in a bar.


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 30, 2010)

> GSP has suggested in the past to leach the gold out of the contacts with cyanide instead of melting in a bar.



Many big refiners have a cyanide stripping setup for select materials. However, since much of the scrap they process is reject manufacturing scrap, this makes it easier for them. For example, they might receive 20 drums of nothing but loose gold plated pins. The main difference in most manufacturing scrap is that it is generated as the individual components rather than assembled boards. When I was deeply involved in working or consulting for refiners that mainly did manufacturing scrap, it was said that 40% of all of the gold purchased by the manufacturers ended up as some sort of scrap. That figure may be lower now.


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## MountainMike (Sep 30, 2010)

Harold

Thank you for your comments and interest. What type/style of cells did you build? Did you bag the cathode? What was your electrolyte formula, and operating limits?

I asked those questions because years ago I tried something along the Tum cell idea. It worked well for a while also. It seemed to me the main problems where that the anode rested on a bed of muslin, the slime developed under and around it to the point of almost insulating the anode bar from the electrolyte. The bar being dissolved only from the bottom added to that. The cathode was a sheet of stainless, what a chore to remove the copper. Feathers/crystals would grow from the cathode and short out the anode if you did not harvest regularly. The electrolyte itself would get fowled in about a week. Back in those days nitric was cheap and fast so I dropped the idea.

Today, things are different and a revisit to the problem using the Moebius idea along with the bagged electrodes has an appeal.

In the back of my mind I am thinking, if GSP and Harold don’t think much of the idea, why do I think I am so bright, and of course I do not, but, then different thinking is that makes the world go round. ~m


ps: Just read the new posts. I guess I have not made myself clear. I am NOT interested in the copper, only the anode slimes. I am also not interested in sending it off to create a paper trail. ~m


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 30, 2010)

> ps: Just read the new posts. I guess I have not made myself clear. I am NOT interested in the copper, only the anode slimes. I am also not interested in sending it off to create a paper trail.



I must have not made myself clear either. I know you're only interested in the anode slimes. That's the easy part. All you do is bag the anode. However, no matter if you're interested in the copper, or not, you'll have to deal with the crappy cathode copper in order to get the anode slimes. You can't have one without the other unless you use a membrane.

I think you're making this more complicated than it really is. Just experiment on a small scale. Instead of a 5 gal bucket, use a 1 gal bucket with an anode and cathode of similar size - say, 2" x 4" or 1" x 4". Bag the anode. Let it run for quite a while, if it allows you to. Small electrodes will essentially work the same as big ones, assuming you use the same solution, current density, etc. Who knows, maybe you can figure out a way to deal with the cathode copper. Harold and I couldn't, but you're a smart guy and maybe you can figure out something that we overlooked.

This may sound stupid, but I have bagged small anodes, in experiments, by simply wrapping them totally in filter paper with a couple of rubber bands around them. Neither the paper or rubber bands will stand up in strong acid solutions but it may work in your case. Also, I used good lab grade filter paper and have never tried coffee filters.


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## MountainMike (Sep 30, 2010)

GSP

Thank you for your continued interest in this project. I sure am going to give it a good try. I am ordering the bags today. I should know something in a week or so.

I have done a quick test, Tum Cell style, takes about a day for the cathode copper to creep back to the anode, it was soft not crystalin or feathery. If I harvested it regularly its seems to work. I ran it for a couple of days. It seems that a bag would not allow the cathode copper out.

Well, the new bags should be here in a few days, "the proof is in the bagging" (sorry Steve). Will keep you posted. ~m

ps: I ran the test using a battery charger, (the 80 amp is on another project) would because the power is more ragged allow the copper to drop easier? ~m

pss: just ordered the bags from Anodeproducts.com only $2.95 each (thanks for the lead 4Metals)


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## samuel-a (Sep 30, 2010)

goldsilverpro said:


> The smelter assays them and then simply blends them into their primary copper flow. The heavy concentration of impurities in the bars becomes considerably diluted from the primary copper flow and allows everything to be run through a cellhouse.



Yes, that was my theory, thank you for confirming.

i wanted to do another test with my micro cell, but this time to add 50% more Cu to the melted pins to ensure high Cu content and see how it deposite at the cathode end.

One more idea that came in my mind is to incinirate quad IC's, crush them and blend it with molten Cu, mix good and pour a bar and try it in the cell... just a thought...


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## nickvc (Oct 1, 2010)

I tried this several ways and had the problems that GSP and Harold have outlined ie fluffy deposits and floating cack. The way I found past this was using a porous membrane and increasing the amount of copper in the feedstock,I think you have to have at least 95%. Copper in your anode. It worked much better with the membrane and the higher percentage of copper but it was slow and I lost interest in the whole thing,this was done as an experiment to see if I could find a cheap and efficient method to treat large volumes of gold filled and plated jewellery which didn't materialise.


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## MountainMike (Oct 1, 2010)

Nickvc: Thank you for your thoughts. I also have gone through all the problems and experiments you outlined. One of my main interests with this is also a cheap and efficient method to handled large volumes of gold filled and plated jewelry . I have read all the idea’s about 95% copper etc. I am going to try the other way, make a relatively weak electrolyte, bag the cathode, and let the floaters and slim do what they want, inside the bag.. I will let you know what happens. Humble pie doesn’t taste so bad if it gets you closer to an idea, or gets a idea out of your mind. ~m

Ps: did you bag your cathode?


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## nickvc (Oct 1, 2010)

MountainMike said:


> Nickvc: Thank you for your thoughts. I also have gone through all the problems and experiments you outlined. One of my main interests with this is also a cheap and efficient method to handled large volumes of gold filled and plated jewelry . I have read all the idea’s about 95% copper etc. I am going to try the other way, make a relatively weak electrolyte, bag the cathode, and let the floaters and slim do what they want, inside the bag.. I will let you know what happens. Humble pie doesn’t taste so bad if it gets you closer to an idea, or gets a idea out of your mind. ~m
> 
> Ps: did you bag your cathode?


No I went for the membrane which worked fairly well but just too slow ,got fed up with the whole thing in the end as the promised volumes never materialised,but keep at it you might find an answer..


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## nh6886 (Nov 29, 2012)

I know this is a bit of a time capsule but after reading to the end of a very interesting thread there's no ending. Is MountainMike still around and if so would you fill in the blanks? If not did anyone hear how this worked out? Looking at the folks who didn't make this work I'm sure it's a tough nut to crack but certainly not the first one to fall to the efforts of this forum. I found this thread looking for a different one where one of the members was discussing having a waste bar checked with XRF. So if there is a better thread than this one to read about this subject please let me know.
Thanks
John


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## kjavanb123 (Dec 30, 2013)

I wonder the same, what happened with members who were experimenting? I am on the same path, nailed the incineration part, controlled the fumes and flying ashes, then will ball mill to mesh 20, screen the metallics, and non metallic, cast the metallics into anode, and drill sample it to find the components, then decide whether to refine myself or sell to smelter.

Regards,
Kevin


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## nickvc (Dec 30, 2013)

Kevin we all gave in, electrolytic refining calls for high grade input or you get major problems with the electrolyte very quickly. Certain things you can cheat but this you can't as far as I can find out the rules of chemistry and physics seem to apply strictly here.


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## solar_plasma (Dec 30, 2013)

GSP


> The thiourea and bone glue are grain refiners and they produce a smoother cathode deposit.



I wonder if it would work more or less if one only would add bone glue, since thiourea is a somewhat bad stuff. Or are there any substitutes for thiourea, which are better suited for the hobby refiner...respectively the school teacher?

Does anybody know, how grain refiners work? Maybe it would be possible to point other candidates, if we knew, how it works...


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## stardust18 (Jan 1, 2014)

nickvc said:


> Kevin we all gave in, electrolytic refining calls for high grade input or you get major problems with the electrolyte very quickly. Certain things you can cheat but this you can't as far as I can find out the rules of chemistry and physics seem to apply strictly here.



Hello everyone . Happy New year. I conducted and will conduct experiments with a cell , where the electrolyte is ammonium thiocyanate or potassium thiocyanate (sodium) . The anode of gold on copper and its alloys ( iron-free ) . Gold is partly in solution , partly sits on the cathode (steel or titanium) . The system works , but you need to find the current density and the ratio of the areas of the cathode and anode , than actually doing lately before winter . In my laboratory, no heating unfortunately, so expect heat. 

PS.In electrolyte for safety kaltsionirovannuyu add soda, making alkaline environment. Ready to answer questions that have answers.


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 25, 2014)

Stardust,

Please advise more detail on your method on recovery of mentioned, did it work?

Regards,
Kj


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