# Making Your Own Coinage.



## hyderconsulting (May 1, 2010)

I got into a bit of discussion with my wife the other day about what would happen this wonderful economy we are experiencing really does get a lot worse with hyperinflation. I was explaining to her that in the worse case scenario it would be feasible to start making your own gold and silver coins to buy your food, fuel and whatever you need since paper money would be nearly useless. She asked me what the Federal government would do about people using gold and silver to pay for items especially since they outlawed it once back in FDR's days. I told her that what they did back then was not outlaw the use of gold coins but the use of United States minted coins to pay for transactions or debts owed. If you produce your own silver or gold in some form and use it to barter for food with your neighbor then there is nothing the Federal government can do. The key word here is"barter." Am I right or wrong here somewhere :?: Regards, Chris.


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## butcher (May 2, 2010)

heck if I grow food and you have gold I will trade. I would not even require you to make the gold into coins.


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## shyknee (May 2, 2010)

i will barter or trade my bread for your gold any day 

deal :?: :mrgreen:


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## Oz (May 2, 2010)

hyderconsulting said:


> She asked me what the Federal government would do about people using gold and silver to pay for items especially since they outlawed it once back in FDR's days. I told her that what they did back then was not outlaw the use of gold coins but the use of United States minted coins to pay for transactions or debts owed. If you produce your own silver or gold in some form and use it to barter for food with your neighbor then there is nothing the Federal government can do. The key word here is"barter." Am I right or wrong here somewhere :?:




Well it was not just US gold coins that were confiscated by FDR with Executive order 6102 on April 5th 1933. Here is the list of exceptions to the confiscation that were allowed;

A) Such amount of gold as may be required for legitimate and customary use in industry, profession or art within a reasonable time, including gold prior to refining and stocks of gold in reasonable amounts for the usual trade requirements of owners mining and refining such gold.
B) Gold coin and gold certificates in an amount not exceeding in the aggregate $100 belonging to any one person; and gold coins having a recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins.
C) Gold coin and bullion earmarked or held in trust for a recognized foreign Government or foreign central bank or the Bank for International Settlements.
D) Gold coin and bullion licensed for other proper transactions (not involving hoarding) including gold coin and bullion imported for reexport or held pending action on applications for export licenses.

There were additional executive orders and amendments that dealt with this that year and next that further defined the amount of gold one could posses in any form to the $100.00 rule under these exceptions. Amounts greater than that required applying for a special license and you had to show the need. It is worth noting that at the time of this order $100.00 was roughly 5 troy ounces of gold.

Unbeknownst to most is that FDR did the same thing with silver August 9th 1934 with Executive Order 6814 with the exception that individuals were allowed to keep silver coins. This was targeted at “hoarders” of silver as once gold was outlawed people went to silver to protect their wealth, but this caused shortages of the metal for coinage. There was a 500 troy ounce limit per individual.

As some background in 1933 FDR was launching his New Deal to help cope with the great depression. He had the problem as to how to pay for all the government “assistance” he planned. At this time in history gold and silver were still money, even the paper money in circulation could be taken in and exchanged for their equivalent in gold or silver coin. Eliminating the private ownership of gold allowed the government to print paper money without having to worry about runs on banks with people demanding their gold for their paper bills as they became concerned as to a banks solvency. These runs destroyed many banks as they operated on the fractional gold system never having all the gold for the bills that were in circulation. 

It is also worth noting that on May 12th 1933 FDR was given the authority to revalue the dollar in gold by the Thomas amendment tucked and hidden in the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933. On January 31st 1934 with Proclamation 2072 FDR revalued gold by fixing the value of the dollar at 15 5/21 grains 9/10ths fine from the original 25 8/10 grains of 9/10ths fine gold. This revalued gold from $20.67 to $35.00 per troy ounce, a 40% increase in the value of the gold that he had just confiscated from US citizens (in other words he stole 40% of the peoples wealth). 2 billion dollars of this government windfall was put into a “stabilization fund” the balance went into the general fund of the treasury. That 2 billion by the way is equivalent in purchasing power to 33.48 billion ($33,480,000,000.00) according to the Federal Reserves own calculations today. That stabilization fund wording sure sounds familiar. 

We are on a fully fiat system now so a revaluation of the dollar by confiscating gold then devaluing the dollar against it is no longer necessary. All they need do is declare the current money in circulation void and you will need to turn it in at whatever exchange rate they choose to give you in the new currency. This is what is so wrong with fiat money with no intrinsic value. The greatest threat of our government outlawing the ownership of gold again is if people lose faith in the dollar and turn to gold and silver. It would be simple to outlaw it once again eliminating them as competing currencies. I do not think this is highly likely though as few own precious metals as they are fully invested in the dollar unlike in the early 30's when money was gold and gold was money.


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## Oz (May 3, 2010)

Then again it could go down like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JPcimrnXGA


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## Noxx (May 3, 2010)

I laughed only reading the title of the video.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 3, 2010)

ROFLMAO.........

They sell it for 25% and buy it back for 110%(plus commisions or course) typical fashion. :twisted:


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## goldenchild (Oct 10, 2012)

That's funny. 200 billion for the gold reserves. Not even a dent in the national debt. On the upside you may be able to score a commercial airliner for $4200 (or best offer).


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## galenrog (Nov 13, 2012)

Gotta love The Onion!!!


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## nōnāgintā trēs (Dec 12, 2012)

I thought about creatinga mold to make silver bars. The only problem is if I get too creative, or mimik an existiting organization I'll make enemies. 

Ideas for a silver bar mold

1. The joker from Batman.
2. "The Bank of..." (Something crude I wont mention here.)
3. Someone dead and semi famious that has a sub culture following...


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## butcher (Dec 13, 2012)

I like the idea of silver bullets, some thing simple.


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## nickvc (Dec 14, 2012)

Butcher you might need to change your user name to Blade :lol:


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## nōnāgintā trēs (Dec 14, 2012)

Silver Bullets? That's a great idea, unfortunatly Europe has horrible gun laws that would make ammo production for me illegal.  

However, I could make silver air rifle pellets, or silver balls good for use with a slingshot! That would keep the werewolves away!! Much healthier to shoot game with silver than lead too!!!


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## webbmutt1 (Dec 18, 2012)

I would guess that many refiner's and Forum members have thought about useing metal for barter, but whatever you do, don't put "Dollar" "In God We Trust" or a dollar value on your coin, or you could end up where Bernard Van Nauthouse is, his trial took 2 weeks, the jury took a few hours to convict him, and he's been waiting 21 months to be sentenced, he's looking at 20-40 years for counterfeiting, (pure bullion) I might add that the expert witnesses from the FBI and the DOJ knew nothing about PM's at least from the court transcripts that I read. Go's to show what can happen to you if you tick off the wrong people!


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## goldshark (Jan 10, 2022)

You can print up your own "money" for bartering. It can have no relations to the United States though. Many people will sell their "dollars", at a fairly comparable price, if not par value.Our town thought about a having their own local currency. They first would first have to start a "bank". The currency would be operated on a barter system amongst vendors. The town currency could be redeemed at the Bank at any time, for full face value of a US dollar. Totally legal. I also have thought about minting gold coins for intrinsic, as well as monetary exchange. As long as you don't put a "dollar" number to it, as well as any connection to the US, or any other country, you will be fine. It should include the fineness and weight, mainly to simplify the transactions. It is then easy to barter. Also not having a dollar amount would allow for the increase or decrease of values. The market would dictate the value.


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## stella polaris (Jan 11, 2022)

Now minting coins is a monopoly in most countries. But i see no ban on producing units of specific weight and stamped with a personal logo + weight. What would the cheapest and simplest way be to produce such units in silver.? Lets say 1 g, 5g, 10g, 50g and 100g units in order to get a handy system for barter. 

What metric system would be most effective handling wise?


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## cosmetal (Jan 11, 2022)

So much gold was being found during the California Gold Rush that started in 1849 that privately issued "proto" money minted into small bars were used for trade and storage. This proto-money was usually issued by the local assayer's office. The practice diminished and eventually stopped after the opening of the U.S San Francisco Mint on April 3, 1854.


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## goldshark (Jan 11, 2022)

Como, Colorado issued a coin during the Colorado gold rush. I think 6 are known to exist. Last time I looked, they were going for about $85,000. A mine owner had some 1 oz. silver coins minted with Park County Mining Association on 1 side, and 1 of the 14er's on the reverse. Beautiful coins, but no dollar amounts.


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## olawlor (Jan 12, 2022)

The current US law on making coins "intended for use as current money":

18 U.S. Code § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
"Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title  or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."









18 U.S. Code § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal







www.law.cornell.edu





(I am not a lawyer.)


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## stella polaris (Jan 12, 2022)

Then i read this 18 U.S. Code § 486 i see a hole. Even if not a lawyer. It say you not allowed to produce money coins, Now we do not have money coins anylonger, we have currency coins. So as long you stick to currency coins a bunch of expensive lawyers would probably save you in court. On the other hand they would probably cost you more than you can make on the coins.


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## kurtak (Jan 12, 2022)

olawlor said:


> 18 U.S. Code § 486


this law pertains to the criminal acts of counterfeiting forgery &/or fraud concerning *money* in particular (making money without authorization by/from the government)


olawlor said:


> - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal


to utter means to declare, express, denote


olawlor said:


> "Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, *intended for use as current money*,


per the bold print that means you can not make a coin with a *dollar value* stamped on it for that would be declaring/expressing/denoting that the coin has a dollar value - *as current money* - stamped on it 


olawlor said:


> whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, *or of original design,* shall be fined under this title  or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."


per the bold print - even if it is of your own design

In other words - if you tried stamping out $20 gold eagles (without being a licensed/authorized mint) you would be guilty of counterfeiting (U. S. government patent/design)

or if you made your own (design) coin - & put a dollar value on it (*declare* (utter) it to have a dollar value) you would be guilty of forgery (making your own *money*)

on the other hand - gold & silver are commodities that are traded everyday on the up & down value they have as a commodity --- they only become currency if you declare (utter) them to have a dollar value (stamp them with a dollar value)

So - by law - as long as you ONLY stamp it with the weight & how fine it is you are only declaring it's commodity value in the up & down market as you are not declaring it to have a dollar (currency) value

so in the case of ONLY stamping it with it's weight & how fine the metal content is you are not committing any crime - as long as the weight & how fine it is *are true* - if the weight & how fine it is *are not true* you would then be guilty of fraud 

there is no law against identifying &/or trading a commodity as long as the commodity is true as identified

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Jan 12, 2022)

Oz said:


> Then again it could go down like this.



They make a joke out of the US doing so.
But the UK actually did this!
Only selling to their friends, not cash4gold.





Worst deal in UK history? 20 years since Brown sold Britain’s gold | BullionByPost - Gold News | BullionByPost


To mark the 20th anniversary of the sale of half of the UK’s gold reserves by Gordon Brown, we recap the former Chancellor's mistakes.




www.bullionbypost.co.uk


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## justinhcase (Jan 12, 2022)

Guillotine style coin press


Hello all you great folks of GRF. I wanted to share something we came across over the weekend at a Renaissance festival. I think many of our resident fabricators and builders may get a kick out of it. I know the idea of turning our recovered metals into coins and stamped bars gets kicked...




goldrefiningforum.com


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## kurtak (Jan 13, 2022)

The title of this thread is - "Making Your Own Coinage"

for the sake of clarification there is a difference between coins & bullion

Coin(age) = coins differ from bullion in that they’re government-issued, *have a face value*, are legal tender, and are guaranteed by the country of issuance.

Per the bold print - face value - that is the "dollar" value stamped on the "coin" making it "legal tender" to be traded on it's face value - (I take a "coin" stamped with a "face value" of $5 to the store & trade it for a $5 loaf of bread) --- I can't make "coins" because ONLY the government can issue them & the government guarantees there trade value as legal tender of the face value (money)

Bullion = has a value that closely tracks the spot price of the metal (gold silver copper etc.) bullion is based almost entirely on its weight and metal content - bullion can be made as ether bars or *rounds*

So if you stamp out "*rounds*" with ONLY the weight & metal content (like the guy with the guillotine) you are making bullion (a tradable commodity) & not making coins (money with a face value) 

For what it worth

Kurt


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## cosmetal (Jan 13, 2022)

Of course, you can also make some Billon. No, billon is not a synonym for a billion bullions. But, you can use your billon to make some Shibuichi so you can repair the guard on your favorite Katana.

Always glad when I can add to the confusion. 

James


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## justinhcase (Jan 13, 2022)

Hum interesting.
A sovereign has a one pound face value as a coin but is worth £340 as a "Bullion Coin"
And a Krugerrand has no face value at all.
The Oxford Dictionary only says it is
1.coins collectively."the volume of coinage in circulation"
the action or process of producing coins from metal."the controller of the coinage of tin"
A system or type of coins in use. Plural noun: *coinages "decimal coinage"*
2.the invention of a new word or phrase."the word is of Derrida's own coinage"

But then we have a great number of countries that have all concocted some sort of internal legislation to control their production.
Some like China allow just about anything to be produced as long as you class it as a novelty, the UK and US have some quite stringent penalty for producing anything intended to deceive others.
But as long as you make them, so they can not be mistaken for an original, you can make copies of out of circulation coinage.
Obviously, forging any present currency would likely have you hunted down by the Secret Service.
I think the question is can you have a flat disc or piece of metal and call it a coin without an official stamp.
Does a coin need to be used as money to be considered a coin, and is there a difference between a coin and token?
In the UK the smallest amount of gold that can be sold legally as gold without the needed to hallmark is one gram, So I have considered producing a small personal struck round in twenty-two karat with a one gram gold content.
Its value would be its content.
I think most people naturally would call that a small gold coin, but it would depend on the court and authority whether we could legally consider it so.


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## kurtak (Jan 14, 2022)

justinhcase said:


> But as long as you make them, *so they can not be mistaken for an original*, you can make copies of out of circulation coinage.


per the bold print - that is true - but (at least here in the U. S.) they MUST have the word "*copy*" stamped on them (example - a 1939 silver walking liberty half dollar) you can stamp them out exactly as the original but they MUST have the word copy stamped on them otherwise you would be guilty of counterfeiting &/or forgery

I have seen a number of such coins over the years (at yard sales) are made of a nickel/copper alloy with no silver

also - there is a difference between actual (gold/silver) *coins* minted when we were still on the gold/silver standard & new modern day *bullion *coins 

Actual coins were coins minted by the government with a legal tender face value (dime, quarter, half dollar, $1, $5, $10, $20) & date of minting as well as the governments patented image(s) --- (walking liberty etc.) - they had no metal weight/ content stamped on them --- they were government issued legal tender (face value) based on the gold/silver standard

Bullion coins - are government authorized "copies" of original coins (the government gives authorization to a mint like the golden state mint to copy the original coin (images - walking liberty etc.) as well as there original face value - thereby making them a coin which in turn makes them "legal tender" --- BUT --- they are "also" stamped with the metal weight/content as well as the "current" minting date (1986 - 2022)

So they are both legal tender with a face value (authorized by the government) as well as bullion due to metal weight/content being stamped on them

As a mint (like the golden state mint) you *must* be authorized by the government to mint bullion *coins* because though have a bullion value they also have a face (legal tender) value 









Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





So as long as you are not stamping them with a (dollar) face value you are not coining money (which would be counterfeiting &/or forgery)

As long as you are stamping them *only* with there metal weight/content they are not coins (or bullion coins) they are simply bullion whether stamped as rounds or bars 

Kurt


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## Noggin (Jan 14, 2022)

trading coined metal for its intrinsic value is considered barter in most situations. I think that gaming tokens are marked not legal tender because its implied value is greater than the intrinsic?


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## justinhcase (Jan 14, 2022)

Noggin said:


> trading coined metal for its intrinsic value is considered barter in most situations. I think that gaming tokens are marked not legal tender because its implied value is greater than the intrinsic?


Some of those Casino chips are worth far more than any coin I know of.


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## justinhcase (Jan 14, 2022)

kurtak said:


> per the bold print - that is true - but (at least here in the U. S.) they MUST have the word "*copy*" stamped on them (example - a 1939 silver walking liberty half dollar) you can stamp them out exactly as the original but they MUST have the word copy stamped on them otherwise you would be guilty of counterfeiting &/or forgery
> 
> I have seen a number of such coins over the years (at yard sales) are made of a nickel/copper alloy with no silver
> 
> ...


The modern world and the fields of influence that it pervades never ceases to amaze me.
Despite any of the legislation that is in place, would we doubt a small purposefully worked piece of metal was a coin if that had been the producer's intent.
Despite that intent having existed many thousands of years before the legal structure we prostrate ourselves before was even contemplated.
I like the first ever example of a "Coin" Which was minted in Ancient Egypt. Not even a bar. But it had a stamp of authenticity from the absolute ruler.
So I suppose anyone can produce a coin as long as it is unique and identifiable as your coin, but the coin's eventual value is based on the weight a producer holds in the world and the value of your mark.


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## goldshark (Jan 15, 2022)

Food for thought. If I was to mint some coins, of a design that didn't infringe on design or other patent, could I say , in this case," Goldshark dollars", and not commit fraud against the guvmint? They would definitely not say US dollars. Why not mint some that say "net value, 50 bones, bucks, smackers, moolas, etc.?


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## orvi (Jan 15, 2022)

justinhcase said:


> The modern world and the fields of influence that it pervades never ceases to amaze me.
> Despite any of the legislation that is in place, would we doubt a small purposefully worked piece of metal was a coin if that had been the producer's intent.
> Despite that intent having existed many thousands of years before the legal structure we prostrate ourselves before was even contemplated.
> I like the first ever example of a "Coin" Which was minted in Ancient Egypt. Not even a bar. But it had a stamp of authenticity from the absolute ruler.
> So I suppose anyone can produce a coin as long as it is unique and identifiable as your coin, but the coin's eventual value is based on the weight a producer holds in the world and the value of your mark.








Similarly Celtic gold coins. Everyone different.
They simply melted precise ammount of gold to the "button" shape, and then stamped it. No precise diameter, no precise anything. It is also considered a coin, altough we could possibly name it "odd-shaped bar" 
I think for personal purposes, to make some few "family" memory coins, or as a gift, you should be OK. For barter use, I would stick to the weight/fineness model. Just any kind of bar/button shape, familiar to people, stamped with weigh and degree of purity.
In the case when the barter would be the best option, values in precious metals would be handy in just any usable form. And refiners like us will be one step ahead, being able to remelt their stock to the desired size  and refine/alloy it to the desired purity.


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## justinhcase (Jan 15, 2022)

goldshark said:


> Food for thought. If I was to mint some coins, of a design that didn't infringe on design or other patent, could I say , in this case," Goldshark dollars", and not commit fraud against the guvmint? They would definitely not say US dollars. Why not mint some that say "net value, 50 bones, bucks, smackers, moolas, etc.?











Company scrip - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## kurtak (Jan 15, 2022)

goldshark said:


> Food for thought. *If I was to mint some coins,* of a design that didn't infringe on design or other patent


Per the bold print - NO (at least here in the U. S.) you absolutely can not mint (stamp out) coins

First of all we need to clarify that stamping an image, numbers &/or words on a round piece of metal is not what makes a coin a coin - in other words - being round in & of it's self is not what makes it a coin

What makes a coin a coin is when you stamp on it a face value that declares it to have a *monetary* value as legal tender *fixed* by the governments standards of weights & measures 

Article 1 - section - 8 clause 5 of the U. S. constitution gives the federal government the exclusive right to coin money - section 10 of article 1 even prevents the independent states from coining money - in other words - the federal government (through the U.S. congress) & only the federal government can coin money

Therefore - as a matter of U. S. law - any round piece of metal stamped with an image, numbers &/or words MUST be advertised as a round -- in other words - you can not advertise (call it) a coin if there is no reference to the* monetary* system of U. S. government stamped on it

Thats why - if you go the the "Golden State Mint" web site they advertise both bullion *coins* & bullion *rounds* for sale 

There bullion *coins* have the reference to the U. S. monetary system stamped on them with ether the word dollar or $ symbol - whereas their bullion *rounds* have no reference to the U. S. monetary system

At the GSM web site you can buy "Walking Liberty" bullion *coins* which have "One *Dollar*" stamped on the tails side of the coin --- or you can buy "Walking Liberty" bullion *rounds* which have NO reference to the U. S. monetary system stamped on it 


goldshark said:


> , could I say , in this case," Goldshark *dollars*", and not commit fraud against the guvmint? They would definitely not say US dollars. Why not mint some that say "net value, 50 bones, bucks, smackers, moolas, etc.?


Per the bold print - the word dollar in & of it's self is a reference to the U. S. monetary system (as well as other countries) - therefore the word dollar(s) it's self "utters" a face value of a coin representing the U. S. monetray system --- in other words - dollar - expresses the value that U. S. money is coined on - which again ONLY the U.S. congress has the authority to do 

Put another way - the word dollar(s) is a reference to the "legal tender" value of U.S. currency (monetary system) as well as a reference to other countries "legal tender" monetary systems

Therefore - yes - "uttering" dollar(s) (stamping the word on a round &/or bar) would be an act of "coining money" as it gives reference to the legal tender value of government issued currency & coining money would/could most certainly be considered fraud in the form of forgery 

so - you could get away with stamping (minting) rounds with Goldshark Bones - Bucks - Smackers - Mollas - etc. as they would be bullion *rounds* & not *coins* --- just not Goldshark Dollars for that would be coining money in reference to U.S. legal tender currency values/laws

Put one more way - dollar(s) - by law - are defined, established &/or regulated by the government(s) that issue them --- Bones - Bucks - Smackers - Mollas have no such government definition, establishment &/or law that regulates them so you could trade them *for* dollars (there value would be in the eyes of the beholder) - just not trade them *as* dollars (Goldshark dollars - or dollars otherwise)

Kurt


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## justinhcase (Jan 15, 2022)

The defining characteristic of a coin is that it has some stated monetary value. Otherwise, your medal, token, whatever, is just another novelty metal disc. 
So don’t make your medal a bona fide coin by putting a value on it, and don’t risk making a medal that resembles a coin if you wish to go unhindered by your local authority.
The same goes for transit and toll tokens issued by any local authority and in house tokens for business. 
Then we get into the subject of "Virtual Coin's" and crypto blockchain currency.


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## goldshark (Jan 15, 2022)

Thanks all for the discussion. Really just want to make some novelty rounds that look nice, without any troubles from our favorite uncle.
Although a little out of context for this forum, a discussion could be welcome in between the usual about cryptocurrencies, shall we?


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## cosmetal (Jan 16, 2022)

The following is all true and relates to a post I originated on another board dealing with coins.

On May 4, 2018, I posted:

_I saw the attached today when searching through my local Craigslist.

*https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/d/1909-vdb-lincoln-wheat-cent/6575588774.html*

I'm no legal expert, but, this definitely would seem to be counterfeiting of a very sought-after rare copper coin. Even if you state that it is a replica, it is supposedly illegal to produce unauthorized replicas of US currency - yes?

Opinions, please.

James_

The Craigslist link no longer works, but, the attached PDF is the Craigslist post and picture of the coin they were trying to sell.

I received many answers that, yes, it was illegal. This particular coin is worth from $14 USD to $3,000 USD depending upon its quality.

I was outraged that this person was trying to pull off this crime!  So, I went to the Treasury Dept. website and searched for counterfeits and what to do, etc.

The website said to contact the Secret Service about any counterfeiting. They (the Treasury) even have a hotlink to the Secret Service. Click on it and a Secret Service menu pops up and asks for your zip code and you will get the contact number for the nearest field office.

It gave me a phone number for the field office in San Francisco. Called . . . many rings later, a guy answers:

*"Secret Service" *along with a long pause - nothing else.

I asked if this is where I was supposed to report suspected counterfeit coins and he answered:

*"Yes"* along with a long pause - nothing else.

I told him about the coin being offered through the SF Craigslist and how it appeared to be an attempted counterfeit of a very sought after early copper cent from the SF Mint. I told him that the advertisement copy said it was a replica and not US currency but there was no marking on the actual physical item identifying it as a replica. He answered:

*"Nothing I can do. He's advertising it as a replica and not trying to sell it as an original" *along with a long pause - nothing else.

But, sir! What if the person that buys it doesn't care about the law and sells it as an original to some noobie coin scronger!!! He answered:

*"Then it becomes an issue" *along with a long pause - nothing else.

I said thank you for your time and have a great day! I didn't make this up.

Moral of my true story:

Most of us live in countries that absolutely love to pass laws. This makes our officials feel important and worth the $$$ we pay them. Sometimes, I feel like I'm breaking some law the minute I step out of my house. But, from the bored tone and unresponsiveness from this Secret Service agent, my opinion is that you all may be right in your views and opinions, but, we are such "small fish" that you may be worried too much.

I am issuing a challenge to all GRF members who live in the USA. That is, if you are worried about your tokens, etc., call your local Secret Service office and "enjoy" the interchange - if you get anyone to answer their "for the public" phone.

Have fun!
James


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## goldshark (Jan 24, 2022)

webbmutt1 said:


> I would guess that many refiner's and Forum members have thought about useing metal for barter, but whatever you do, don't put "Dollar" "In God We Trust" or a dollar value on your coin, or you could end up where Bernard Van Nauthouse is, his trial took 2 weeks, the jury took a few hours to convict him, and he's been waiting 21 months to be sentenced, he's looking at 20-40 years for counterfeiting, (pure bullion) I might add that the expert witnesses from the FBI and the DOJ knew nothing about PM's at least from the court transcripts that I read. Go's to show what can happen to you if you tick off the wrong people!


Would it be OK if you say " In Cod We Trust", with a picture of a fish in lieu of an eagle?


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## goldshark (Jan 24, 2022)

Which leads to the next question, how long does a patent run on US coin design?


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## Tquilha (Oct 19, 2022)

Besides all the legal and technical problems associated with minting your own coinage, I think the biggest problem would be one of trust.
How do I know this new coin/medal/token/whatever is actually made of gold or silver and in the proper alloy?
That is a very big issue.
Here: 

This is a form of emergency money issued in several places in Portugal after WW1. This one was issued by the city of Aveiro.
Now, these bills were actually issued illegally. There were only two authorized issuers: our mint and the Santa Casa da Misericórdia. But we were in such a bind, that municipalities were able to issue their own notgeld and get away with it.
The issue again is trust. If enough people trust that this thing has value, then it does.


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## goldshark (Oct 19, 2022)

I think I would trust a Gold coated zinc penny over any fiat currency. At least it has an actual value, even over a $100 bill. It might be worth an actual .25 cents, where as a $100 bill may cost .20 cents to make? I don't know actual costs for the mint to produce a bill these days. Trust keeps the world going, at least for now. Gold is a funny commodity. You really cannot do much with it ,as it relates to other commodities. In other words, you can eat it, but I don't know of the nutritional benefits. Makes expensive bullets. Doesn't corrode, except in rare ,extreme environments. It does reflect a higher percentage of Infra red than any other metal, I have read. It may have some super power when it comes to solar radiation reflectivity.Not a lot of it relative to other elements on Earth. Long story short, many people have been brain washed into trusting fiat currency for everyday trade. There is not enough Gold to go around to cover all trade, hence Silver.Quite a bit of Silver, then maybe Tin ( thinking price per pound value), copper, etc, etc.
As far as an emergency situation for currency production after the next apocalypse? You would accept Gold in any form. If it is fake or falsely represented, you start back to zero, make some stockades, and invite your friends over for a god old fashioned flogging of the perps. After all, it is an apocalypse, any thing goes, for a while at least. 

Rise and fall, turn the wheel, as life is, is really just a circle. BHTATM's.
Go with the flow, not the undertow. Me


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## goldorack (Oct 21, 2022)

I just finished refining and intend to do my own coins. I will use the Delf sand casting. I read above and I will put my face on the coins (just as the queen has her face on the official currency). That should remove any confusion between me and the queen. I just finished digitalising my design in 3 D and printed a plastic coin for the mold. I also wrote moneta internationales on it since gold is a currency. And to make things very clear I wrote : Familia Goldorack.


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## goldshark (Oct 21, 2022)

I personally, like others who push the envelope. I deplore sheeple, and the small thinker. I applaud you sir!


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## Timberwolfrc (Oct 23, 2022)

Then you should blend a nice rose gold coin based on the Aztec formula which give the coin durability and attractive color!


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## goldorack (Oct 23, 2022)

TimberwolfercThank you for your suggestion. Goldshark thank you for your comment. It is very rewarding to see my face on a gold coin.


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## goldshark (Oct 24, 2022)

Hopefully it doesn't make your head swell too much though.


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## BlackLabel (Oct 24, 2022)

The problem is, you'll need a lot of gold.
If you going to put your face on a coin, the coin has to be larger than your face…


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## Debbie K (Nov 26, 2022)

I have tried making fine silver rounds in 1 oz increments for making sheet silver, and trust me, it isn't as easy as it sounds. I wish I knew how the mint does/did it, because I wasn't having much luck. I was using a graphite crucible and pouring into an ingot mold, and later, tried them in a wood mold (works fine, just do it outside as it will smoulder). The problem is in the pour; the metal pours all at once like mercury would. 

The only way I can think of that I could make true 1 oz rounds by casting would be to weigh the silver before putting in the crucible and only melting that amount, which would be ridiculously labor (and energy) intensive. They (coin makers) must have some mechanism to cut off flow and extremely accurate temperature controllers so the flow/viscosity would be the same all the time. Way above my pay grade. I watched a video on historians trying to duplicate early English coining pouring into a series of molds and it was a pathetic mess. Much easier said than done.

Casting in investment would be much neater (much more than sand casting) but then you are left with cutting off a sprue and the inevitable shrinkage that occurs in the wax, investment and silver, resulting in something somewhere around an ounce. I would never want to mark something as 1 oz troy if it wasn't at least that. If it's over, I wouldn't be able to recoup that outlay unless I was marking it 1.01 troy oz, a distinction that most people wouldn't understand. 

I think (and trust me, I don't know) that fine silver and fine gold are ingot cast and then rolled to a extremely precise thickness and then die cut to an extremely precise size to get the very nearly exact weight. That's how I'd do it, after giving it quite a bit of thought, and then die-striking the rounds.

I've also tried striking; made steel dies with engraving for this purpose. All I have to say is that, this too, is an art. I thought the problem was that I was a light-weight female, but even my 220 lb husband had trouble doing it. You really need to KNOW how to swing a sledge hammer, which neither of us do. Hence the popularity of striking machines, which are almost impossible to find for a small manufacturer. I actually have considered making a drop hammer, but changed over to a hydraulic press for my jewelry needs instead.

If I were going to do something like this for barter, I'd probably make a ring or bracelet out of sterling (holds up longer). People aren't as picky about exact weights in jewelry as they are in bullion. 

As to determination of content, specific gravity is the easiest and one of the best ways to determine metal content of sterling and fine silver and the various gold alloys (with the exception of tungsten for gold). It's easy for people to understand and a lot less messy than all those acids and touchstones.

Just my opinion based on my experiences.

Debbie


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Nov 27, 2022)

Debbie K said:


> I have tried making fine silver rounds in 1 oz increments for making sheet silver, and trust me, it isn't as easy as it sounds. I wish I knew how the mint does/did it, because I wasn't having much luck. I was using a graphite crucible and pouring into an ingot mold, and later, tried them in a wood mold (works fine, just do it outside as it will smoulder). The problem is in the pour; the metal pours all at once like mercury would.
> 
> The only way I can think of that I could make true 1 oz rounds by casting would be to weigh the silver before putting in the crucible and only melting that amount, which would be ridiculously labor (and energy) intensive. They (coin makers) must have some mechanism to cut off flow and extremely accurate temperature controllers so the flow/viscosity would be the same all the time. Way above my pay grade. I watched a video on historians trying to duplicate early English coining pouring into a series of molds and it was a pathetic mess. Much easier said than done.
> 
> ...


1st of all, you’re not going to make coins no matter what method you use. Only sovereign governments can authorize coinage and only sovereign mints can produce coins. You will produce bullion rounds. 
2nd, mints, sovereign or otherwise, don’t pour coins into molds. Gold and silver is rolled into strips of very precisely measured thickness and then blanks are sheered into very precisely measured pieces, the dimensions of which are determined by the desired weight of the finished product. These blanks are then struck in presses at thousands of pounds of pressure using very fine dies.


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## Jado (Nov 27, 2022)

nōnāgintā trēs said:


> 3. Someone dead and semi famious that has a sub culture following...


Jerry Garcia


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## Debbie K (Nov 27, 2022)

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> 1st of all, you’re not going to make coins no matter what method you use. Only sovereign governments can authorize coinage and only sovereign mints can produce coins. You will produce bullion rounds.
> 2nd, mints, sovereign or otherwise, don’t pour coins into molds. Gold and silver is rolled into strips of very precisely measured thickness and then blanks are sheered into very precisely measured pieces, the dimensions of which are determined by the desired weight of the finished product. These blanks are then struck in presses at thousands of pounds of pressure using very fine dies.


I never said I was making coins, I was trying to make rounds to roll for sheet. Thanks for confirming what I suspected was the case for "coinage" production; after much thought this is the conclusion I came to, as I mentioned in my comment. I do believe, however, in ancient times, rounds were poured and then struck. I was just sharing my practical experience with others who seemed to think that this was going to be an easy thing to do.


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Nov 27, 2022)

Debbie K said:


> I never said I was making coins, I was trying to make rounds to roll for sheet. Thanks for confirming what I suspected was the case for "coinage" production; after much thought this is the conclusion I came to, as I mentioned in my comment. I do believe, however, in ancient times, rounds were poured and then struck. I was just sharing my practical experience with others who seemed to think that this was going to be an easy thing to do.


In ancient times coins were poured and then roughly struck. But it was a very inexact method of production. If you really want to try to make your own blanks, a rectangular bar is a better shape to start with. It’s much easier to to feed through a roller. You’ll still have to find a way to stamp out your blanks. The equipment to do that with the required precision is expensive and most of the reason why almost no one can do it except for industrial scale production.


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## Debbie K (Nov 28, 2022)

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> In ancient times coins were poured and then roughly struck. But it was a very inexact method of production. If you really want to try to make your own blanks, a rectangular bar is a better shape to start with. It’s much easier to to feed through a roller. You’ll still have to find a way to stamp out your blanks. The equipment to do that with the required precision is expensive and most of the reason why almost no one can do it except for industrial scale production.


I think it would be possible to strike with a drop hammer, which is why I considered making one. I was making stampings for jewelry and considered making multiples, so I carved tool steel dies which did work, but not reliably as I (and my husband) were not good at swinging a sledge hammer. I had a piece of round tool steel which was shorter than the collar it was placed in which was place on a steel anvil. Then I put in a round piece of fine silver and then placed the carved round die on top inside the collar. The dilemma is hitting the die absolutely square, which was beyond my capabilities. I figured if a made a drop hammer that weighed 10 or so pounds that traveled in a piece of pipe at a height of approximately 10 feet I could probably strike with enough force to get a good impression, but the rebound would probably double strike the stamping, which is why I gave up on the process. I think maybe some spring mechanism would solve the problem, but I lost interest in the project.

There are hydraulic jewelry stamping machines out there (usually antiques or very vintage) but they cost up from $10,000 or so. Deal breaker for me. I did find one for about $1,000 on Ebay once (a true antique) but it was more than I could afford. I have wondered if a trip hammer might do the job.

I was trying to pour rounds for another project, making rounded sheets for enameled pendants. The rounds (when rolled) made two half ovals which were perfect for what I was doing.

So, for those who are considering it, just be aware that it won't be easy!

Debbie


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## goldshark (Nov 29, 2022)

The key is to anneal your metals properly. A 10 ton bottle jack in a press will indent the metal very adequately, maybe coupled with a 5 pound hammer blow, while under pressure. The metal round should come out hard, as it will be work hardened by the pressure.


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## cosmetal (Nov 29, 2022)

*'THE “DROP HAMMER” COIN MINT was based on Leonardo da Vinci’s mechanical genius. It was the first industrialized tool of Renaissance times, perfecting the art of coin-making with increased accuracy over the previous hand-hammered techniques. The mint is operated using controlled amounts of accelerated gravity by raising a 150 lb. hammer to a height of 9 feet. The coins set between the two dies are struck with an incredible 40 tons of force!"*



Peace and health,
James


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## Debbie K (Nov 29, 2022)

Thank you so much for posting this! I'll have to research Da Vinci's drop hammer; there's bound to be something mentioning it somewhere with maybe some plans. He drew pictures/plans of most of his inventions. But 150 lbs? Maybe with pulleys as I'm a small female person. There's bound to be a way to handle the recoil/bounce back. 

Thanks Again!

Debbie


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## kurtak (Nov 30, 2022)

cosmetal said:


> *'THE “DROP HAMMER” COIN MINT was based on Leonardo da Vinci’s mechanical genius. It was the first industrialized tool of Renaissance times, perfecting the art of coin-making with increased accuracy over the previous hand-hammered techniques. The mint is operated using controlled amounts of accelerated gravity by raising a 150 lb. hammer to a height of 9 feet. The coins set between the two dies are struck with an incredible 40 tons of force!"*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting the video cosmetal

Back in 2016 another member posted about the same drop hammer coin stamp (different guy same device)









Guillotine style coin press


Hello all you great folks of GRF. I wanted to share something we came across over the weekend at a Renaissance festival. I think many of our resident fabricators and builders may get a kick out of it. I know the idea of turning our recovered metals into coins and stamped bars gets kicked...




goldrefiningforum.com





Note that there is a piece of pipe welded on top of the anvil that holds the striking dies with a round brass rod sticking out of it

I am sure there is a heavy spring (like a car valve spring) under the brass rod which is what prevents getting a "double strike" of the coin from bounce of the drop hammer

The brass rod would have to be "just a bit" higher then the strike die rod so that full drop force would hit the strike die but then stop the much lesser bounce force from hitting the strike die a second time 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Nov 30, 2022)

Debbie K said:


> I was trying to pour rounds for another project, making rounded sheets* for enameled pendants*. The rounds (when rolled) made two half ovals which were perfect for what I was doing.


Hi Debbie --- Per the bold print (above quote) --- VERY nice work  

Please show us some more of your work 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Nov 30, 2022)

Debbie K said:


> I think it would be possible to strike with a drop hammer, which is why I considered making one. I was making *stampings for jewelry* and considered making multiples, so I carved tool steel dies *which did work, but not reliably as I (and my husband) were not good at swinging a sledge hammer*.



Again per the bold print --- A couple years age I decided to make some jewelry out of my sterling flatware stash (forks & spoons) & was having the same problem with hammer/anvil striking

I happen to have a BIG vice so I unbolted it from my work bench & mounted it on the wall - basically turning it into a horizontal press - "polished" a piece of flat iron & rounded the edges & mounted that to the bottom jaw of the vice so it wouldn't damage the underside of the sterling being stamped

Using the vice as a press gave me much better stamp results the hammer/anvil  

Kurt


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## Debbie K (Nov 30, 2022)

Kurt:

Love the forks! They look like octopus tentacles! Really good impression with those stamps.

I used a vise for pressing dies, too, but didn't think about mounting it on a wall; good idea! I didn't have a hydraulic press at the time so I improvised with a vise (Covid vacation, couldn't get to a shop I usually used) and made these pendants. I have found that the larger the die and the finer the detail the more difficult it is to get a good impression with a vise or 20 ton hydraulic press, hence my interest in striking.

Also including a picture of a carving/casting I made years ago and a few that are more typical of what I usually do. I'm primarily a gemstone carver; my metal work kinda sucks.

Debbie


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 30, 2022)

Debbie, that is some beautiful work!

Dave


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## Debbie K (Nov 30, 2022)

Thanks, Dave!


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## kurtak (Dec 1, 2022)

Debbie K said:


> Also including a picture of a carving/casting I made years ago and a few that are more typical of what I usually do. I'm primarily a gemstone carver; my metal work kinda sucks.



Hi Debbie

First I have to say *ALL* of your work is *Absolutely AWESOME *   

As to my personal taste my 3 favorites starting with most favorite

1) Point of No Return
2) Winter's Frost
3) Poseidon

(thought you said your metal work kinda sucks)  

Not that your beetles on leaves aren't Absolutely AWESOME to - I just am not really into bugs - but the work is AWESOME

THANKS for posting 

Kurt


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## Debbie K (Dec 1, 2022)

Kurt:

Thank you for your kind words. I'm okay at carving wax and casting, but my fabrication is always a little sloppy. I just can't seem to achieve that high level that jewelers do, my stuff is more "art", whatever that is. I got just enough training to realize all my deficiencies.

I was trying to make stamps of aquatic scenes that were about 1.5" across that would be enameled so I could make something that would be easy to duplicate (and maybe SELL as these one of a kind things are always high ticket items). Needless to say, per my post, that didn't work out so well. 

I did a series of mermaids like the Poseidon piece, and more weird ones like Point of no Return. Used to have a website, but let it go as it got so expensive. But there are more on my Pinterest page; anything that starts with "My ..." is my work. Here's a link if you're interested: DLSK Designs, Deborah Kirkpatrick (dikatt56) - Profile | Pinterest


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## popslab (Dec 3, 2022)

Oz said:


> Well it was not just US gold coins that were confiscated by FDR with Executive order 6102 on April 5th 1933. Here is the list of exceptions to the confiscation that were allowed;
> 
> A) Such amount of gold as may be required for legitimate and customary use in industry, profession or art within a reasonable time, including gold prior to refining and stocks of gold in reasonable amounts for the usual trade requirements of owners mining and refining such gold.
> B) Gold coin and gold certificates in an amount not exceeding in the aggregate $100 belonging to any one person; and gold coins having a recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins.
> ...


Thank you very much for that explanation.


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