# Beginner questions and mistakes



## Grelko

First post and hello everyone,

I couldn't find a good answer to some of the questions I was looking for on the forums, this should cover most of them.
I've been reading the forums for a couple months now.

I started collecting circuitboards+plated jewelry, about 6 months ago. "Approx 300lbs brown boards, 250 lbs green boards which include ~45 motherboards, ram, cd/dvd tv, modem, cell, etc. and maybe 5 lbs plated items. I've been reading all I can about this subject and figured I would give it a try.

I stripped most of the brown boards of value and will be taking them to the scrapyard soon.

From the green boards, I've pulled close to 3 lbs of mixed gold pins, alot still have tiny bit of solder "I read you can boil them in HCL to remove the solder if this is accurate?". My crockpot broke so I scrapped it, but kept the ceramic insert. Could I just place that on my hotplate to boil the pins in, or would a coffee pot work better?

I have a little over 1 lb of ram fingers and 1.5 lbs scrap plating from other boards. I took 54g from the pile of that and put it into AP for 4 days. It barely touched them but, I managed to get some foils and green mask.

I have the chem gloves, a respirator that works for CL, plastic tweezers, HCL, peroxide, CL, borax, and a bunch of other items that are needed for this. I can't find Nitric anywhere, and didn't really want to mess around with electricity or sulfuric too much unless I have to.

I've read and re-read the MSDS on the chemicals I'll be using, and will be starting to read Hokes as soon as I find the link. "Edit - I found the link"

I have approx 1/4 lb of silver contact points that I was going to put into AP then melt after the BMs are off "I am aware that some may contain cadmium", but I can't purify the silver unless I have nitric I believe?

Also, close to 1 lb of the small push buttons that are off TVs etc, that have the dot of silver inside.

5+ lbs of IC chips, almost 2 lbs of processors, green, n/s bridge etc. from the 80s - now. "No IBMs though and I wont tear apart my commodore 64 either"

I have close to 100 lbs of old industrial boards "1950s-60s" that have nice dark gold fingers. I peeled a couple of the fingers off and took them to get the x-ray spec done, and they showed up only having copper, gold, lead in them. The tracing is only copper/lead "no silver or tin?"
Could I just put the fingers into AP and it'll drop the lead/copper, or is there something else I would need to do first to remove the lead?

I peeled around 100g foils by hand while watching movies. Just put those into AP like I would with entire fingers, then proceed like normal right?

If your AP completely evaporates, with foils/powder still in it, can you just re-make it or should you filter it first?

If HCL+CL after approx 24 hours the CL evaporates leaving HCL by itself again, could I just add CL along with more gold, or when the CL evaporates, will the gold drop out as powder or just stay in the solution since there's nothing else in it like copper? Even though when you add more CL, it'll just go back into the solution along with the other gold you added.

So far I just have 3x 1L glass mason jars with plastic lids and maybe 3g dried foils with pieces of green mask in it. 1 jar with almost black AP, 1 light blue distilled water, and 1 almost clear blue distilled water. By the way, should you use distilled water everytime, for rinsing etc. Or, just during the HCL+CL part? I just didn't want to add more contaminants to the solutions since I'm trying to get them out in the first place.


Couple mistakes I've done so far.

Left the coffee pot with AP in it, on my picnic table...in the rain, so there were small pieces of wood, plants and water in it but, the foils came out ok, I still need to do washes anyways.

After cutting the fingers/ICs etc. off of 20 or so ram cards, I ran the cards through an industrial paper shredder because I figured it would save me a couple bucks when I got around to shipping it to a refinery since they grind them up anyways, but decided that I would do it myself instead. Can I just put the 2-5 mm flakes into HCL to remove the solder, then AP to recover PMs from it?

By biggest mistake was to open a brand new HCL "31%, get in there and barely take a small whiff....never again. My left nostril felt like it melted and my left eye didn't stop watering for about 30 minutes.


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## jason_recliner

> Could I just put the fingers into AP and it'll drop the lead/copper, or is there something else I would need to do first to remove the lead?


Lead is more reactive than copper. And it will _dissolve_ in HCl even without peroxide. The peroxide helps to turn the HCl into Copper(ii) Chloride, which is what dissolves more copper. You've kind of answered your own question here:


> Can I just put the 2-5 mm flakes into HCL to remove the solder, then AP to recover PMs from it?


That is what I would do. Solder = tin + lead, which displace the capacity to hold copper in AP solution.



> If your AP completely evaporates, with foils/powder still in it, can you just re-make it or should you filter it first?


I would think you can just add some HCl. You'll already have copper chloride crystals, which will dissolve quickly in HCl and start things off again.



> I have... a respirator that works for CL...
> I've read and re-read the MSDS...
> By biggest mistake was to open a brand new HCL "31%, get in there and barely take a small whiff...


Words fail me. I can only say, "!!!!!!!!!!" Which is kind of hard to pronounce.

I wouldn't worry about distilled water as long as you're only working with HCl; a little more chlorine is not going to hurt. When you start working with Nitric, chlorine will dissolve your gold.


Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have some reading and are on your way and learning from your mistakes.
One warning: Sniff nitric just once and I don't expect we will see you again.


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## nickvc

jason_recliner said:


> Could I just put the fingers into AP and it'll drop the lead/copper, or is there something else I would need to do first to remove the lead?
> 
> 
> 
> Lead is more reactive than copper. And it will _dissolve_ in HCl even without peroxide. The peroxide helps to turn the HCl into Copper(ii) Chloride, which is what dissolves more copper. You've kind of answered your own question here:
> 
> 
> 
> Can I just put the 2-5 mm flakes into HCL to remove the solder, then AP to recover PMs from it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is what I would do. Solder = tin + lead, which displace the capacity to hold copper in AP solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your AP completely evaporates, with foils/powder still in it, can you just re-make it or should you filter it first?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would think you can just add some HCl. You'll already have copper chloride crystals, which will dissolve quickly in HCl and start things off again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have... a respirator that works for CL...
> I've read and re-read the MSDS...
> By biggest mistake was to open a brand new HCL "31%, get in there and barely take a small whiff...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Words fail me. I can only say, "!!!!!!!!!!" Which is kind of hard to pronounce.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about distilled water as long as you're only working with HCl; a little more chlorine is not going to hurt. When you start working with Nitric, chlorine will dissolve your gold.
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have some reading and are on your way and learning from your mistakes.
> One warning: Sniff nitric just once and I don't expect we will see you again.
Click to expand...



As a word of warning to all members do not sniff any chemicals and certainly don't sniff any reactions taking place, you are aware that chlorine gas is given off in many instances!


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## artart47

Hi Grelko !
I good read in the safety section! Where are you located? Hoke's book will give you the understanding that you need to be able to start processing your materials. Do not do any of it inside! You must work outside when there is a breeze blowing from your side to take fumes away from you.
Welcome to our forum and good luck!
artart47


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## goldsilverpro

Grelko said:


> By biggest mistake was to open a brand new HCL "31%, get in there and barely take a small whiff....never again. My left nostril felt like it melted and my left eye didn't stop watering for about 30 minutes.



Many of the chemicals we use have very strong distinctive odors and are often extremely pungent, to say the least. Sometimes, in refining, it is desirable to get a small whiff of a chemical. In refining, we use all of our senses. It is also good to develop a library of smells in your brain, so you will know what is what.

A small whiff could be used to identify an unknown liquid in an unmarked container. It could also be used as a part of a refining process, such as when dropping gold out of aqua regia with a sulfite. When the sulfite combines with the acid, sulfur dioxide gas (SO2) is released and the SO2 is what actually drops the gold. SO2 is quite toxic and is also a very disagreeable chemical to smell. Most gases dissolve in most solutions and they are released at the surface over a period of time. If you leave a glass of beer sitting around for awhile, it will grow "flat" when all the carbonation (CO2 gas) has escaped. Gold will quickly react with any SO2 present in the solution. Therefore, after letting an addition of SMB react for awhile, with a little stirring, apply these 2 general rules, using the Wafting Technique below:

*(1)* If you can't smell any SO2 coming off the surface of the solution, there is still gold in solution and you need more SMB.
*(2)* If you can smell SO2, and this smell is about the same strength, say, 5-10 minutes later, all the gold has been dropped. Back this up with a stannous chloride test.

The Wafting Technique is the *only* safe way to smell a solution or chemical. You can't just stick your nose over the container because the result could be devastating to your well-being. Usually, people learn this the hard way after doing it with the wrong chemicals and it has made an indelible impression on them. Note that Grelko said....never again! In my case, in the late 60s, I stuck my nose over a jug of concentrated aqua ammonia (ammonium hydroxide), which is about 18 times stronger than grocery store ammonia. I immediately was thrown to my knees, literally, and I was out of it for a few minutes. Since then, when I wanted to smell something, I have always "wafted". Never again!

*The Wafting Technique:*

You basically: 
*(1)* Stand back from the top of the container about 2 feet (this is usually far enough away), with your head higher than the top of the container.
*(2)* With your hand (preferably gloved - some fumes will chaff your hand and some can even burn you, especially when hot), waft (wave) the fumes from the top of the container towards your nose.
*(3)* If you can't smell anything, slowly move your nose forward until you can barely smell it.
*(4)* Memorize that smell.
*(5)* Rinse off your glove (or, hand).

This technique can also be used when the container is under a fume hood, but you'll probably have to get a little closer before you can first smell it.

In some cases, the unknown liquid is just plain water, in which case your nose would end up right above it. Beware, though, of sulfuric acid, which looks like water and has no smell to speak of.

Lots more info on "wafting":

https://www.google.com/search?q=wafting+technique&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


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## Grelko

Thanks for the replies,

I'm glad I don't need distilled water everytime I rinse because it'll save money.

I'll toss the lead solder into HCL then after it's dissolved, I'll use AP on the rest.

I found the link for Hokes book and will be starting to read it tonight.

Incase anyone wants to know, 31% HCL is like taking the smell of chlorine from an entire swimming pool and condensing it into a shot glass. It's such a very strong vinegar/bleach type of a smell that hits you like a brick, and it stays in your nose a good while.

I'll definately not be "sniffing" the bottle of HCL again, this was before I read the MSDS for it. I just wanted to remember the smell, and I do, I really do.

I'll be sure to use the "Wafting technique" from now on.


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## maynman1751

goldsilverpro said:


> Grelko said:
> 
> 
> 
> By biggest mistake was to open a brand new HCL "31%, get in there and barely take a small whiff....never again. My left nostril felt like it melted and my left eye didn't stop watering for about 30 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the chemicals we use have very strong distinctive odors and are often extremely pungent, to say the least. Sometimes, in refining, it is desirable to get a small whiff of a chemical. In refining, we use all of our senses. It is also good to develop a library of smells in your brain, so you will know what is what.
> 
> A small whiff could be used to identify an unknown liquid in an unmarked container. It could also be used as a part of a refining process, such as when dropping gold out of aqua regia with a sulfite. When the sulfite combines with the acid, sulfur dioxide gas (SO2) is released and the SO2 is what actually drops the gold. Most gases dissolve in most solutions and they are released at the surface over a period of time. If you leave a glass of beer sitting around for awhile, it will grow "flat" when all the carbonation (CO2 gas) has escaped. Gold will quickly react with any SO2 present in the solution. Therefore, after letting an addition of SMB react for awhile, with a little stirring, apply these 2 general rules, using the Wafting Technique below:
> 
> *(1)* If you can't smell any SO2 coming off the surface of the solution, there is still gold in solution and you need more SMB.
> *(2)* If you can smell SO2, and this smell is about the same strength, say, 5-10 minutes later, all the gold has been dropped. Back this up with a stannous chloride test.
> 
> The Wafting Technique is the *only* safe way to smell a solution or chemical. You can't just stick your nose over the container because the result could be devastating to your well-being. Usually, people learn this the hard way after doing it with the wrong chemicals and it has made an indelible impression on them. Note that Grelko said....never again! In my case, in the late 60s, I stuck my nose over a jug of concentrated aqua ammonia (ammonium hydroxide), which is about 18 times stronger than grocery store ammonia. I immediately was thrown to my knees, literally, and I was out of it for a few minutes. Since then, when I wanted to smell something, I have always "wafted". Never again!
> 
> *The Wafting Technique:*
> 
> You basically:
> *(1)* Stand back from the top of the container about 2 feet (this is usually far enough away), with your head higher than the top of the container.
> *(2)* With your hand (preferably gloved - some fumes will chaff your hand and some can even burn you, especially when hot), waft (wave) the fumes from the top of the container towards your nose.
> *(3)* If you can't smell anything, slowly move your nose forward until you can barely smell it.
> *(4)* Memorize that smell.
> *(5)* Rinse off your glove (or, hand).
> 
> This technique can also be used when the container is under a fume hood, but you'll probably have to get a little closer before you can first smell it.
> 
> In some cases, the unknown liquid is just plain water, in which case your nose would end up right on it. Beware, though, of sulfuric acid, which looks like water and has no smell to speak of.
> 
> Lots more info on "wafting":
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=wafting+technique&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Click to expand...


Thank You Chris for that great explanation.......as always!!!! 8)


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## jason_recliner

Grelko said:


> Incase anyone wants to know, 31% HCL is like taking the smell of chlorine from an entire swimming pool and condensing it into a shot glass. It's such a very strong vinegar/bleach type of a smell that hits you like a brick, and it stays in your nose a good while.
> 
> I'll definately not be "sniffing" the bottle of HCL again, this was before I read the MSDS for it. I just wanted to remember the smell, and I do, I really do.
> 
> I'll be sure to use the "Wafting technique" from now on.


Stomach acid is roughly half a percent HCl. Consider 60 people simultaneously vomiting out your nose. :shock:


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## Anonymous

jason_recliner said:


> Grelko said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incase anyone wants to know, 31% HCL is like taking the smell of chlorine from an entire swimming pool and condensing it into a shot glass. It's such a very strong vinegar/bleach type of a smell that hits you like a brick, and it stays in your nose a good while.
> 
> I'll definately not be "sniffing" the bottle of HCL again, this was before I read the MSDS for it. I just wanted to remember the smell, and I do, I really do.
> 
> I'll be sure to use the "Wafting technique" from now on.
> 
> 
> 
> Stomach acid is roughly half a percent HCl. Consider 60 people simultaneously vomiting out your nose. :shock:
Click to expand...


Jason did you have to ? 8) 8)


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## Pantherlikher

Very illustrative description of a bad "waft" Jason...

However, I'm still debating on which would be worse... 
Full strength HCL+ bleach fumes or your description of the smell...

B.S.


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## MrMylar

For all of those and us that are still living that still have no health issues (breathing to say the least) have been taught either on their own, but most likely through professionals, like here on this forum. I mentioned this before and it seems to escape the minds of some, yet throws in the fear of breathing problems or even worse. The best thing you can do is be prepared to deal with what you're doing. The WORST thing you can do is to NOT know what your chemicals/gases smell like. That WILL be your problem at that point.

*No# 1* thing I have learned from this forum is that you need to know the SMELL of your chemicals/gases, but do NOT BREATHE them. If you are in a confined space, then you NEED a fume hood and probably a mask too. But, for the sake of the argument, if you're outside and you're away from the up/down draft of the wind blowing the fumes/gases, you should be fine.

*No# 2*. Let's say you're refining and you don't want to know what your chemicals smell like (NOT BREATHE THEM.. SMELL THEM), how would you even know if you're using too much of any chemical? How would you know if you're not even doing any refining, but a neighbor down the street, block or mile away doing their refining with the same chemicals is coming from their location/vicinity and not yours? If you don't know if your chemicals are too strong or not, then you need not bother refining because it's something you must know. 

Again, Smell and NOT breathe.

*No# 3*. Nitric acid for instance has a smell of chlorine, or bleach, according to my nose senses, and if I'm working with nitric acid, and if any wind blows in any direction I'm in, I know if the fumes/gases are coming my way. The same with dropping Sodium Meta Bisulfite. You can smell that stuff and you should know exactly what it is. If not, don't bother using it.

A good tip anyone can use when doing chemical refining outside is to

* make sure you're not doing it on a windy day
* use an in-scent or burn a piece of wood close, but not directly near your work area. The reason you would do this is that if you can smell what you're burning, then that means the wind is blowing your way and so are the fumes/gases. If that happens, move to another location. The point is to not smell the smoke of what you're burning.

Fumes and gases are totally different in many aspects, but the principle will still stand true if you did them both outside. Smoke rises more than fumes, and many fumes and gases drop to the ground. Either way, if you smell what you're burning from a distance, then chances are the fumes/gases are coming your way too.

*No# 4*. The best way to even see the fumes/gases outside is at night, for the most part. Have the proper lighting and keep at a distance and you can actually see the gases and fumes follow in a direction and even when they change directions, you'll be able to see it before it gets close to you. I do it myself all the time. I'm not saying work outside in the dark, but I do because I have the proper lighting and I can see the gases and fumes from at least 15ft+ away from the source, and then I bail another direction when I can actually see the wind carrying it my way.

The moral of my reply is to let people know that breathing any of the fumes and chemicals we deal with is dangerous, but smelling them is far less, and there is a difference in both. Know what you're working with.

Forwhat I do work with, no matter the combination anyone put them in, I know what they are so far. Even though one may overpower the other, I know what I'm smelling... and not breathing.

And to close, if you smell anything you're working with, chemicals, incineration, or whatever, get into *FRESH AIR IMMEDIATELY!*

Hope that helps!


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## Grelko

MrMylar said:


> *No# 1* thing I have learned from this forum is that you need to know the SMELL of your chemicals/gases, but do NOT BREATHE them.
> 
> * use an in-scent or burn a piece of wood close, but not directly near your work area. The reason you would do this is that if you can smell what you're burning, then that means the wind is blowing your way and so are the fumes/gases. If that happens, move to another location. The point is to not smell the smoke of what you're burning.
> [/b]




Very nice explanation MrMylar,

I'll have to try this, 

Even if you are working out in the woods, some trees or plants have a stronger odor if you crumble up some leaves that you could set near the work area, especially things like certain types of pine trees or wild garlic. Just watch out for poison ivy and some others.

Hopefully people understand that most of the chemicals we use are very dangerous and if you know what their particular scent is, you will be aware of which ones they are when they are in your presence. 

"small story" 
Over the years I've come to know the smell of natural gas. On a few different occasions, I've found that my neighbors furnace was leaking because they were wondering why their heating bill was high. I found that my hot water heater had a loose fitting and was leaking. Another time the stove was turned on but the flame wasn't, and over at my friends house, their stove was leaking and I just so happened to be there and notice the gas smell before someone lit a cigarette which could have been horrible. Besides of many other smells, like my previous vehicle had a gasoline leak.

Some smells are VERY noticable, like burning plastic for example and, you should know which is which and hopefully know what to do in certain situations.

If you don't know what a certain smell is, it might be best to leave that area and ask someone to help, especially if it is very pungent odor. 

Remember to smell, and don't breathe it because it may be toxic.


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## Anonymous

MrMylar said:


> For all of those and us that are still living that still have no health issues (breathing to say the least) have been taught either on their own, but most likely through professionals, like here on this forum. I mentioned this before and it seems to escape the minds of some, yet throws in the fear of breathing problems or even worse. The best thing you can do is be prepared to deal with what you're doing. The WORST thing you can do is to NOT know what your chemicals/gases smell like. That WILL be your problem at that point.
> 
> *OK I can live with this point. Knowledge is good and can be a life saver.*
> 
> *No# 1* thing I have learned from this forum is that you need to know the SMELL of your chemicals/gases, but do NOT BREATHE them. If you are in a confined space, then you NEED a fume hood and probably a mask too. But, for the sake of the argument, if you're outside and you're away from the up/down draft of the wind blowing the fumes/gases, you should be fine.
> 
> *I don't advocate refining outside unless you live on a ranch with no neighbours but let's run with this for the time being.*
> 
> *No# 2*. Let's say you're refining and you don't want to know what your chemicals smell like (NOT BREATHE THEM.. SMELL THEM), how would you even know if you're using too much of any chemical? How would you know if you're not even doing any refining, but a neighbor down the street, block or mile away doing their refining with the same chemicals is coming from their location/vicinity and not yours? If you don't know if your chemicals are too strong or not, then you need not bother refining because it's something you must know.
> 
> Again, Smell and NOT breathe.
> 
> *No# 3*. Nitric acid for instance has a smell of chlorine, or bleach, according to my nose senses, and if I'm working with nitric acid, and if any wind blows in any direction I'm in, I know if the fumes/gases are coming my way. The same with dropping Sodium Meta Bisulfite. You can smell that stuff and you should know exactly what it is. If not, don't bother using it.
> 
> *Really? I don't agree at all. Nitric doesn't smell anything like Chlorine to me but then again we all have different noses. SMB smells like you had a bit of sick in your mouth.*
> 
> A good tip anyone can use when doing chemical refining outside is to
> 
> * make sure you're not doing it on a windy day
> * use an in-scent or burn a piece of wood close, but not directly near your work area. The reason you would do this is that if you can smell what you're burning, then that means the wind is blowing your way and so are the fumes/gases. If that happens, move to another location. The point is to not smell the smoke of what you're burning.
> 
> *A little rustic in approach however I get the point.*
> 
> Fumes and gases are totally different in many aspects, but the principle will still stand true if you did them both outside. Smoke rises more than fumes, and many fumes and gases drop to the ground. Either way, if you smell what you're burning from a distance, then chances are the fumes/gases are coming your way too.
> 
> *Do your homework on the gases you are producing and learn which rise and which are dense enough to fall.*
> 
> *No# 4*. The best way to even see the fumes/gases outside is at night, for the most part. Have the proper lighting and keep at a distance and you can actually see the gases and fumes follow in a direction and even when they change directions, you'll be able to see it before it gets close to you. I do it myself all the time. I'm not saying work outside in the dark, but I do because I have the proper lighting and I can see the gases and fumes from at least 15ft+ away from the source, and then I bail another direction when I can actually see the wind carrying it my way.
> 
> *Actually this is incorrect. The bloom you see with Nox is only a small part of the actual cloud of gases produced. I'm really "anti" the whole gung ho refine outside approach because it doesn't care about collateral damage.*
> 
> The moral of my reply is to let people know that breathing any of the fumes and chemicals we deal with is dangerous, but smelling them is far less, and there is a difference in both. Know what you're working with.
> 
> *Yep I agree completely, get to know what you are dealing with.*
> 
> Forwhat I do work with, no matter the combination anyone put them in, I know what they are so far. Even though one may overpower the other, I know what I'm smelling... and not breathing.
> 
> And to close, if you smell anything you're working with, chemicals, incineration, or whatever, get into *FRESH AIR IMMEDIATELY!*
> *
> Again this is spot on. I would caveat al this with don't refine outside if possible. Get set up properly if you can. Mylar meant his post in the best possible way and I respect that. I have merely added my own thoughts.*
> 
> Hope that helps!


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## AugieDoggie

Grelko said:


> Thanks for the replies,
> 
> I'm glad I don't need distilled water everytime I rinse because it'll save money.
> 
> For my distilled water, I collect from my air-conditioner evap line. I use a clean jug and collect it every few days.
> Just my 2 cents.


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## Grelko

AugieDoggie said:


> For my distilled water, I collect from my air-conditioner evap line. I use a clean jug and collect it every few days.
> Just my 2 cents.



Thanks for the info,

I happened to read something like this in another thread and was wondering if you have the line sealed somehow to keep out the dust in the air, or particles from rain? Other than that, it would work great. Maybe attach a long tube to the end somehow and have it drip directly into a sealed bucket?


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## Grelko

I'm checking to see if I'm doing this properly so far.

I took 3 ounces of fully gold plated connector pins from the 1960s-70s, and placed them into a mason jar with a plastic lid that Isn't on tight. I used 12 ounces of HCL 31.45% and 12 ounces of 3% hydrogen peroxide (ratio 1-1) I probably should have checked here first, but the 1-1 ratio is off of Moose Scrapper's video on youtube.

The large amount of peroxide may put gold into solution but, I can always check with stannous anytime, and with all of the base metals, it should just push the gold back out anyways.

I don't have a bubbler yet so this will take alot longer than it should (I'm hoping to get a bubbler soon). So far It's been four days and I can see alot of tiny gold flakes floating around when I stir it with a plastic spoon, since I don't have a glass rod. The solution is slowly starting to look like it's getting thicker and darker green.

The pins are barely magnetic when using a hard drive magnet so I think they might be a copper base with nickel or zinc.

After the last few days, the pins are starting to look like a mix between copper and rust color, so hopefully this is working correctly.

This shouldn't take quite as long as it would with brand new pins because alot of them got scratched up when I was pulling them out of the black plastic connectors. I used a heat gun to warm up the plastic a bit, and the pins came right out.


My main question is, do I wait until the pins are fully dissolved, then filter the solution and do alternating hot water, hot HCL washes, or filter it out when it looks like all the plating is off of the pins?

Also, is using 12 ounces of HCL and peroxide enough for 3 ounces of pins?

I know you add acid to water, but I wasn't sure about acid and peroxide, so I added the peroxide to the acid very slowly, which seemed to bubble a tiny bit.


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## shmandi

You have been on the forum for some time now. So my advice is to forget all those yt videos and other information. Search this forum to find correct information.
1:1 ratio is way too much H2O2. Peroxide is used just to start reaction. So best way is to add it in small amounts and observe reaction. And keep in mind that reaction with AP is not very volatile.


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## jason_recliner

Grelko said:


> I took 3 ounces of fully gold plated connector pins from the 1960s-70s, and placed them into a mason jar with a plastic lid that Isn't on tight. I used 12 ounces of HCL 31.45% and 12 ounces of 3% hydrogen peroxide (ratio 1-1) I probably should have checked here first, but the 1-1 ratio is off of Moose Scrapper's video on youtube.


Yeah it is. Sounds like a ratio for scrapping moose, rather than gold parts. Just a splash of H2O2 will get it started. On pins, it will be slow. A week or two.



Grelko said:


> My main question is, do I wait until the pins are fully dissolved, then filter the solution and do alternating hot water, hot HCL washes, or filter it out when it looks like all the plating is off of the pins?


You have read enough to realise you're dissolving half your gold with so much peroxide, and that it's going to cement. But it will cement back onto anything solid that's higher in reactivity (tin, copper, iron, nickel, etc). So you will keep going until ALL the pins are gone. You will be left with fine gold flakes AND fine black/brown gold powder. Less H2O2, and you'd just have gold flakes.


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## Palladium

I wish people wouldn't be so quick to judge youtube. I find youtube to be a very resourceful tool for teaching and learning. Just like any information we learn as humans we have to be able to judge the credibility of the information before we take it as fact. If you don't have the mental capacity to judge creditable information from uncreditable information then even if you were presented with a noble prize winning answer you wouldn't would know it because you mind can't distinguish fact and fiction. It doesn't mean the platform as a whole is bad. Ebay comes to mind! It's the failure of the individual, not the technology.


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## MrMylar

jason_recliner said:


> You have read enough to realise you're dissolving half your gold with so much peroxide, and that it's going to cement. But it will cement back onto anything solid that's higher in reactivity (tin, copper, iron, nickel, etc). So you will keep going until ALL the pins are gone. You will be left with fine gold flakes AND fine black/brown gold powder. Less H2O2, and you'd just have gold flakes.


If he has that much peroxide, I'm almost certain there will be no gold flakes at all once it's all said and done. His gold is going to be completely dissolved into the solution, and definitely so if he leaves them in that solution for a week or longer.

For 1), you don't use AP to get the gold off of pins. You use a sulfuric cell for that.
2) all it took was just 1 cap full of peroxide to get it going and working along with some stirring every few hours.

If you don't have access to a sulfuric cell and you want to get your gold off the pins, then the best way and fastest way I know is to make your Aqua Regia (Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach) and then add 50% of water to the solution and put it on heat. What will happen is that while you're trying to evaporate all the water you put in the beaker, the ar will be loosening off the gold and when you stir the solution you'll see your gold floating around. 

To remove the gold really fast, you can simply make the AR and add it to medium heat for 1 hour, and then after that, add the 50% volume of water to the solution and turn the heat on high. Most of your gold will flake off but remember, as you evaporate the water out, you're making the solution more concentrated and it will eventually dissolve the gold if you let the solution get to its initial volume level without the water added.

The best thing to do after you see plenty of gold flakes swirling around in the solution is to filter the solution to capture all the gold, and then place the solution back in the beaker and star it again until all your gold is flaked off. 

The key is adding the water. The water will hold the AR from actually dissolving the gold, but it will be strong enough to start dissolving some of the base metals. It works for me and that's how I do my fiber pinless cpu's.

This method was adopted by myself by mistake. I made AR to dissolve the pads on the pinless cpus, and when I covered it with my watch glass it started raining. The water started filling in my beaker from going over the top of the watch glass, and when I put it on heat to evaporate the water out, that when I saw what looked like most of the cpus were stripped. From then, I started testing other material that had fingers and pads using this method and the results are the same. 

You can take fingers from RAM sticks and use this method and within hours or so, you'll have ALL the gold flaked off the fingers, vs waiting days for it to complete.

The key trick I found out is to stand the items up in the beaker where they won't fall down. Doing it this way insures that your gold will flake away and not be stuck onto other pieces in the solution.

Hope that helps!


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## jason_recliner

> make your Aqua Regia (Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach)


That is NOT Aqua Regia!


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## MrMylar

jason_recliner said:


> make your Aqua Regia (Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach)
> 
> 
> 
> That is NOT Aqua Regia!
Click to expand...

HCL + Nitric Acid = Aqua Regia
Muriatic Acid + Nitric Acid = Aqua Regia
Muriatic Acid + Bleach Or Muriatic Acid + Peroxide (1:1 ratio) = Aqua Regia.... but technically muriatic acid and peroxide is called AP.

I know Muriatic Acid + Peroxide = AP (Acid Peroxide) but if you use a 1:1 ratio you'll make AR in the sense that it will dissolve the gold. 

If any chemicals combined together to dissolve gold would be considered Aqua Regia to me, but technically AR is HCL + Nitric Acid.



wikipedia said:


> Aqua regia, aqua regis, or nitro-hydrochloric acid is a highly corrosive mixture of *acids*, a fuming yellow or red solution. The mixture is formed by freshly mixing concentrated nitric acid and hydrochloric acid, optimally in a volume ratio of 1:3. Wikipedia
> Formula: HNO3+3 HCl
> Density: 1.21 g/cm³
> Boiling point: 226.4°F (108°C)
> Melting point: -43.6°F (-42°C)
> Vapor pressure: 2.1 kPa



On an ending note, muriatic acid and bleach is not AP because there is no peroxide in it, so what would one call it? I call it Poor Man's AR because it'll do the same thing as HCL+ Nitric Acid.

Also, although wikipedia says a 1:3 ratio (1 part Nitric to 3 parts HCL) is overkill to say the least. Nitric can only be measured accurately when you have done an equal amount of batches of the same process to dissolve gold. 

That's my take on it.


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## Grelko

I've seen alot of mis-information on YT but some of it is decent. I would rather come here to find most of the information I need to do this though.

I actually used the 1-1 ratio because I don't have a bubbler, so I figured that the added oxygen in the solution would help it continue until I did get one.



jason_recliner said:


> I know that a tiny bit of peroxide is all it takes to start making CuCl, I use that for ram fingers. Thanks for letting me know to wait until the pins are fully dissolved.
> 
> Once everything is dissolved, I was going to cement all the values out, then do the hot water, hot HCL washes to remove the base metals "which should go alot faster when it's powder".
> 
> I have stannous to check my solution when ready because I know that it will dissolve gold into it with that much peroxide.
> 
> I've actually found quite a bit of good information on YT for making different tools, small furnaces, certain things to look for on a circuit board etc. There is quite alot of other things on there besides funny videos and music, but sometimes you can't find the proper videos because there's so much on there.
> 
> 
> It seemed like it would be easier for me to dissolve all of the pins/gold into solution, then go from there. I'm on page 298 in Hokes "slightly into the Appendix" and I can always get the gold out of solution when finished.
> 
> For 1), you don't use AP to get the gold off of pins. You use a sulfuric cell for that. ----- I don't have much room, we have pets and my nieces come over alot, and I don't want any of them to get burnt etc. Plus, I don't feel safe mixing electric and acid quite yet. I need to learn about this more.
> 
> (Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach) and then add 50% of water to the solution and put it on heat. ------ I can't use the HCL/CL method around my house because my neighbors live within 15 feet or so. I have a respirator for CL, but there's too many people around here. I'll have to find somewhere in the woods when I'm ready for that step.
> 
> The best thing to do after you see plenty of gold flakes swirling around in the solution is to filter the solution to capture all the gold, ----- I was going to filter the solution within the next few days because of all the flakes floating around when I stir it, but it will take a long time for the rest of it to dissolve. I'm not in any hurry though.
> 
> The key trick I found out is to stand the items up in the beaker where they won't fall down. Doing it this way insures that your gold will flake away and not be stuck onto other pieces in the solution. ----- Thank you, this is how I will be doing fingers/plated materials from now on. I've had problems with some pieces sticking together and not stripping the gold off when they were laying in a pile at the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> MrMylar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jason_recliner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> make your Aqua Regia (Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach)
> 
> 
> 
> That is NOT Aqua Regia!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> HCL + Nitric Acid = Aqua Regia
> Muriatic Acid + Nitric Acid = Aqua Regia
> Muriatic Acid + Bleach Or Muriatic Acid + Peroxide (1:1 ratio) = Aqua Regia.... but technically muriatic acid and peroxide is called AP.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


If I had the room "and could actually find Nitric" I would make AR. AP works good for now and I have plenty of time to learn all of the different processes and read.


Here's a question.

I doubt it, but since I will be dissolving most/all of the gold with AP because of large amount of the peroxide, is it possible that I could wash it then drop with SMB instead of using HCL/CL because of the fumes. I know it wouldn't be nearly as pure as using HCL/CL, but if I washed it with hot HCL/hot water and re-dissolved the powder with AP 1-1 a few times, the base metals would mostly be gone, which would take out the need for CL all together? I was just wondering because of the fumes.


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## solar_plasma

HCl and H2O2 are actually used by many to dissolve gold powders. It is slower than HCl/Cl and much slower than AR. 

To dissolve basemetals along with gold has always to be avoided whenever possible. This is the last option when everything else would fail.

Be aware of that HCl/H2O2 and HCl/CuCl2 are two different things. This might be confusing for many noobs, since some ml H2O2 are often used to kickstart the HCl/CuCl2-system, but thereafter only aeration is used to get it done. H2O2 is too powerful to be a good provider of oxygen. It works, but you have to have some experience to know where your gold is. I would not advise it.


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## jason_recliner

There is plenty of decent solid chemistry on YouTube. I for one rather like NurdRage and have learned several useful techniques.
Of course there is a lot of misinformation there too. _We don't need it here_.

Kevin, Aqua Regia (AR) is a very specific thing. It is 3 parts hydrochloric acid HCl and 1 part nitric acid HNO3. Period. It does not have an alternate recipe.
Poor Man's Aqua Regia (PMAR) can be made from a nitrate salt such as sodium nitrate. The forum is full of detail on how to make this lesser version, similar to Aqua Regia but in salt water.

HCl + H2O2. How many NO3 molecules in that? None. This is acid/peroxide (AP) and is only used to start the cupric chloride solution. It may dissolve some gold until the oxidiser evaporates or is used. But AP, in any ratio, is not AR. It is not PMAR. And once started, the CuCl2 solution will not dissolve gold.
Likewise, hydrochloric acid + sodium hypochlorite bleach can dissolve fine particles and foils of gold. But is not Aqua Regia and it has no relation to AP or cupric chloride solution.

Just because a solution is capable of dissolving gold, does not mean it is Aqua Regia. Birds fly. Bats fly, but it doesn't make them birds. You can think of it any way you like, but please don't spread misinformation.

Grelko,
The AP process will dissolve your pins. It's is slow and a sulphuric cell would be a better option in volume. But it will work.
You really don't want to dissolve your gold. You want to dissolve base metals. Filtering solids from liquids is easy. 
You are trying to dissolve gold and recement it as fine powder on pins that you want to remove from solution. Filtering solids from solids is hard and causes loss of values.
From here, the correct thing to do is dissolve all base metals, leaving you with maybe a few gold flakes and now powder. Do not add any more peroxide, just let it take its course. The solution will adsorb some oxygen from the air, even if you don't have a bubbler. Sloshing the jar around occasionally may also be helpful.
Understand that there won't be much gold to show per ounce of pins.


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## solar_plasma

As an additional information in order to avoid confusion:

Jason is right about AR, but we often or mostly use it in a modified way, as we add HCl until the material is a little more than covered and then add HNO3 in small increments, giving it good time to react. This way we have the chance to see when the reaction stops and we don't add a large excess of nitric. Knowing how much gold is in there helps a lot.


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## Anonymous

Palladium said:


> I wish people wouldn't be so quick to judge youtube. I find youtube to be a very resourceful tool for teaching and learning. Just like any information we learn as humans we have to be able to judge the credibility of the information before we take it as fact. If you don't have the mental capacity to judge creditable information from uncreditable information then even if you were presented with a noble prize winning answer you wouldn't would know it because you mind can't distinguish fact and fiction. It doesn't mean the platform as a whole is bad. Ebay comes to mind! It's the failure of the individual, not the technology.



This is a good post from Palladium. I agree that you've got to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff with regards to Youtube or any other platform from which you are attempting to glean knowledge. Even this forum has incorrect information within the host of great information because it's darn nigh impossible for an information resource to be 100% correct in any form.

Some of the tube videos are ridiculously funny though, or they would be if some muppet wasn't playing fast and loose with peoples' lives.


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## bswartzwelder

I have read most of this thread with great interest. I would say that 99% of the time we do not know exactly how much gold is present in the items we are dealing with. We cannot accurately measure the thickness of the gold on finger contacts nor on pins. So, in my humble opinion, it is worthless to mix up a 400 ml batch of AR to try and dissolve the gold from a few ounces of the items we are dealing with. The exact recipe of the AR is meaningless if we don't know how much gold is there in the first place.

Many of the members have found this out the hard way (myself included) when we mixed up a batch of AR and had to deal with an excess of nitric acid. So what's a person to do? Having an excess of HCl in the mix isn't a problem. But you need to be sure you use enough HCl. Pour your HCl into your vessel (a metal bucket would be a poor choice) and then add your nitric acid. Add it slowly, and in small increments. WAIT for the reaction to work its magic. If all the gold dissolves, chances are you have used too much nitric and will have to get rid of it before you try to precipitate. Watch the reaction!

If you haven't added too much nitric, the reaction will slow down and perhaps not all the gold will dissolve. This is what you want. At that point, add the nitric in small increments to avoid adding too much. And, once again, wait to see if all the gold dissolves. Once all the gold has dissolved, you are ready to precipitate it back out of the solution using your method of choice. I have found SMB works well, but there are others like ferrous sulfate (commonly called copperas) or oxalic acid which will precipitate your gold and leave some of the other metals still in solution. Every precipitation method has its pros and cons. Oxalic acid needs to be near the boiling point to work effectively.

If you have used too much nitric, and you try to precipitate, some of the gold will precipitate. If the solution had other metals in it such as copper, the gold could cement out onto the copper. If the solution had only gold in it, the gold could precipitate out of the solution and be re-dissolved because there was too much unused nitric left in the solution. When I first started, I did just exactly that. I precipitated my gold out of the solution, checked it with stannous chloride and got a negative for gold. I then put the beaker down because it was getting late. The next morning when I got up, the solution was clear and there was no gold to be seen. Another test with stannous chloride showed the solution, which had no gold in it the night before, now tested positive for gold once again. What had happened was the excess nitric had re-dissolved the gold. This time, I added a little sulfamic acid to kill off any nitric left and re-precipitated the gold. As soon as it had settled, I decanted the solution and set it aside. Later, I retested it and found the gold had not re-dissolved and that there was no gold left in the solution.

It only takes a drop or two of stannous chloride to know if your solution has gold in it or not. It is not expensive to make it yourself. However, it will go bad after sitting for a while. Always test your stannous first on a sample known to have gold in it and then test your unknown solution.


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## jason_recliner

bswartzwelder said:


> I have read most of this thread with great interest. I would say that 99% of the time we do not know exactly how much gold is present in the items we are dealing with. We cannot accurately measure the thickness of the gold on finger contacts nor on pins. So, in my humble opinion, it is worthless to mix up a 400 ml batch of AR to try and dissolve the gold from a few ounces of the items we are dealing with. The exact recipe of the AR is meaningless if we don't know how much gold is there in the first place.


This is of course correct, as is Björn. AR will dissolve gold but we only want to "just barely" dissolve gold.
It was not my intent to make exact 3:1 proportions a point of focus so much as ingredients.

You can't swap gin for scotch, vermouth for cola, and still call it a martini.


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## Grelko

solar_plasma said:


> HCl and H2O2 are actually used by many to dissolve gold powders. It is slower than HCl/Cl and much slower than AR.
> 
> To dissolve basemetals along with gold has always to be avoided whenever possible. This is the last option when everything else would fail.
> 
> Be aware of that HCl/H2O2 and HCl/CuCl2 are two different things. This might be confusing for many noobs, since some ml H2O2 are often used to kickstart the HCl/CuCl2-system, but thereafter only aeration is used to get it done. H2O2 is too powerful to be a good provider of oxygen. It works, but you have to have some experience to know where your gold is. I would not advise it.



That's good to know, and I'm just doing this as a hobby so time isn't an issue, the solution is just sits on the picnic table.

I didn't really want to dissolve everything unless I had to, but living so close to others, and not being ready to mix electric/acid for a sulfuric cell, this seemed to be my best option. Just stripping the plating off WOULD be alot easier.

I'm still learning the different procedures. I figured that the added oxygen from the H2O2 would add enough oxygen for me to be able to keep it going until I got a bubbler. I didn't think that 3% was going to do too much compared to say 25% H2O2 besides dissolving the copper etc. 

So far, suprisingly the stannous test showed negative "unless I screwed up making it". The recipe I used is in another post.



jason_recliner said:


> Grelko,
> The AP process will dissolve your pins. It's is slow and a sulphuric cell would be a better option in volume. But it will work.
> You really don't want to dissolve your gold. You want to dissolve base metals. Filtering solids from liquids is easy.
> You are trying to dissolve gold and recement it as fine powder on pins that you want to remove from solution. Filtering solids from solids is hard and causes loss of values.
> From here, the correct thing to do is dissolve all base metals, leaving you with maybe a few gold flakes and now powder. Do not add any more peroxide, just let it take its course. The solution will adsorb some oxygen from the air, even if you don't have a bubbler. Sloshing the jar around occasionally may also be helpful.
> Understand that there won't be much gold to show per ounce of pins.



Once I learn more and find somewhere to safely keep a sulfuric cell I definately will be. I still have a bit over 3 pounds of pins to go through. The 3 ounces is just a test to see how the different processes work for different items. I "might" end up getting .05g of gold from it, if that much, but it's alot of fun.

Filtering the flakes from the pins shouldn't be too bad, as long as the acid doesn't melt the plastic canvas (the square hole ones for yarn or art projects etc) because the flakes are very small and the pins wont fit through the holes. Then I can just filter the flakes by themselves and go from there.

I mix the solution a 2 or 3 times a day with a plastic spoon and don't tighten the lid, so that it can react with the air.



solar_plasma said:


> As an additional information in order to avoid confusion:
> 
> Jason is right about AR, but we often or mostly use it in a modified way, as we add HCl until the material is a little more than covered and then add HNO3 in small increments, giving it good time to react. This way we have the chance to see when the reaction stops and we don't add a large excess of nitric. Knowing how much gold is in there helps a lot.



This is what I was going to do with the HCL/CL step once I get to it "and find a place to do it at". Take a dropper and only use a couple ml of CL and give it a few minutes between to see when all of the gold is dissolved.


Thanks for all this information guys, the more I read about the different processes, the better I feel about actually doing them, since I'm getting the basics and advanced steps, safety measures, and different mistakes, plus new ideas that might work, all at the same time as if I was reading a book about it.


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## Grelko

Well, it's been a little over 2 weeks and the pins are still very slowly dissolving. I haven't seen any change in the color of the solution or pins over the last week, even after adding 2 more ounces of HCL. The solution is still pretty light green and the pins look copper/rust colored. I have a feeling that the pins may have actually had iron or lead in them which is stopping the process, or perhaps 1 of the materials in the pins is plating itself back on. There may be a coating on the pins that I didn't notice at first, but I have filtered out a small amount of gold flakes about a week ago, before I added the extra HCL.

They started out as full gold plated pins.

I tighten the lid and shake the jar a few times per day for about 30 seconds each time. I still need to get a bubbler.

I was going to filter the pins and any flakes that are left in the solution, then boil them in water for a couple hours to see if there's any soluble materials cemented to them, filter that, and put the pins back into another mix of HCL/peroxide, but only using a small amount of perodixe this time. 

I'm wondering if I should try putting the pins into HCL without the peroxide for a few days first.


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## Geo

Don't add more H2O2. Use fresh HCl and some of the pregnant CuCl2 leach you already have. If you add any more H2O2, you are bound to dissolve some gold.


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## Grelko

Geo said:


> Don't add more H2O2. Use fresh HCl and some of the pregnant CuCl2 leach you already have. If you add any more H2O2, you are bound to dissolve some gold.




That's what I did about a week ago. I added 2 more ounces of HCL without adding more peroxide, but haven't seen a difference. The solution before adding the extra HCL was 50/50 HCL/peroxide.

The small amount of flakes/powder that was floating around, that I got after filtering the first time, dried a light brown/yellow color. "I know they're still dirty though"

I was going to start over with completely new HCL/peroxide mix, but I could always decant most of what I have and just add HCL to it instead.

I'm not sure about my stannous solution, it's not very old and there's still tin at the bottom, but I haven't seen a positive result yet. (It's possible that I haven't dissolved any gold into any of my solutions yet) The problem is that I haven't gotten a chance to get away from home/neighbors to actually make a gold test solution, but every solution I've tested comes up clear like water without the slightest hint of purple, green, or anything to it so, I'm thinking that It may have gone bad. I can always re-make my stannous and really need to find the time to make a gold test solution for it.

I use a dropper bottle for stannous and dip the very corner of a folded napkin into the solution to be tested. I might be getting to much solution on the napkin for it to show positive, or the slightly off white color may be masking the result. I need to get white plastic spoons etc. to use instead.

I saved all my old solutions, and once I get a positive result for stannous, I'll be checking all of them, then disposing of them properly when I no longer have a use for them.


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## jason_recliner

> I'm not sure about my stannous solution, it's not very old and there's still tin at the bottom, but I haven't seen a positive result yet.


If your AP solution has been sitting around a week, there will be no gold in solution. Stannous chloride will not test for gold in solid: whether colloid, fine powder or flakes - only solution. There will very likely have BEEN gold in solution, with so much H2O2 deployed, but any that was digested will now be cemented as fine brown powder.

AP takes TIME. Lots of it.

If you think your solution is saturated or "full", Butcher made an excellent collation of posts about thermally rejuvenating saturated CuCl2 / AP, with very little waste. It took me several re-reads over weeks to understand it properly (I think). If you have some time on your hands, it's well worth a read. Probably even for more experienced members.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=20006&p=204406&hilit=ferrous+ferric+cuprous+cupric+white+brown+main+solution+decant+cool#p204406


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## kuma

Palladium said:


> I wish people wouldn't be so quick to judge youtube. I find youtube to be a very resourceful tool for teaching and learning.



I must say that I fully agree with this sentiment. I've only recently come back to the forum after a three year break, so that I can reacquaint myself with the processes before I go on to the practical side of things (hopefully soon, tic-toc  ). This might come back to bite me, but I'm surprised at just how quickly it's all come back to me. 

Because of this, just yesterday I thought I'd look for some videos on youtube just to see it all from a different angle. I'd not ever spent any real amount of time watching refining videos before as I'd rather read and study the theory and then put it all together in my own mind. 

I found whilst watching videos yesterday that I was finishing the presenters sentences for them, I knew exactly what they were saying and what they were doing, and more to the point, I knew exactly _why_ they were doing it. 

Had I of not spent so much time studying the forum, I'd have had no real clue what they were doing, or again, _why_ they were doing it. I could have easily tried to reason with myself and tried to fill in the 'blanks' in order that what I had just watched made sense - that's where things could potentially get dangerous. 

In summary, I believe that youtube videos do have their place, provided that they're produced by someone who knows what they're saying and what they're actually doing. Coupled with an education from this forum*, I do believe that some well produced videos prove invaluable to some.

I'll finish by saying that I came across Geo's channel yesterday too, great videos Geo! 8) 

Kind regards, Chris


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## 4metals

I agree that people shouldn't be so quick to judge Youtube. But like all things internet there is no filter, you cannot believe everything you see. I have seen very good video's on Youtube which were accurate and valuable, and I have seen crap which was likely posted for less than educational reasons. 

That is why a forum like this is valuable, if someone posts total BS, someone jumps on it quickly and exposes the problem. You don't get that on Youtube, which makes it a problem if you have absolutely no previous knowledge. Unfortunately people will see a Youtube video and instead of saying that looks interesting let me research further, they just jump in and realize, often too late, that they don't know enough. 

So Youtube is very valuable but....... a bit of background knowledge, coupled with the visual learning experience of Youtube is better. 

I have not seen Geo's Youtube posts but I would like to see them. Link please?


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## goldsilverpro

https://www.youtube.com/user/10464jeff/videos


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## kuma

GSP got there first, 8)


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## Geo

Thank you guys for the interest. I actually started my youtube channel to share with the forum. I hope to be making more videos soon with some actual refining in them. Almost all of my videos deal with recovery instead of refining. I always felt that recovery was the most important step because it's hard to refine gold from electronics before it's liberated from all the junk.


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## goldsilverpro

It would be nice to sticky a list of acceptable videos, along with titles and links and, maybe a few comments. Most of the good ones will be from GRF members. Not being biased - that's just the way it is. There's good videos from people like Ralph, Sam, and Geo. I know there are many other good ones I've seen, but I can't recall, offhand, who did them. There are also old ones on youtube made by knowledgeable members who no longer post. It would be an ongoing thing.

I always thought we could form voluntary committees of, say, 5 knowledgeable dedicated members, in this case, to do most of the work (research, etc) on stuff like this. God knows we have (and have had) a lot of knowledgeable dedicated members.

Just thinking out loud.


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## 4metals

> Almost all of my videos deal with recovery instead of refining. I always felt that recovery was the most important step because it's hard to refine gold from electronics before it's liberated from all the junk.



This statement is worthy of repeating! What often happens is that members or wannabe refiners think of it all as refining. They have a pile of electronic scrap and take it all the way to fine gold. If you know what you are doing this is fine, but if you are new to this and do all the work and come down to the end and have 3 or 4 grams of gold (and likely dirty gold at that) you will quickly become disheartened. 

Experience teaches you to recover the values into a concentrate and save the concentrate up until you have enough to process for a respectable yield. If you are doing this on material you own outright, it is easier because you don't have to pay out based on what you received. But if you are doing toll refining you have the experience to handle the lots and know what to expect. 

Again, very important to differentiate between recovery and refining. Thanks Geo!


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## 4metals

In reference to Chris's suggestion, I would like to add a section of approved video's to add to the library. sounds like a great idea to me.


----------



## g_axelsson

goldsilverpro said:


> It would be nice to sticky a list of acceptable videos, along with titles and links and, maybe a few comments.


I started on such a list on my wiki, http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/YouTube

So far it's only links to a few of our members...
* https://www.youtube.com/user/sreetips/videos Videos by kadriver, contains a lot about silver and gold but also palladium and platinum.
* https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7MJW65g2CFT9wr0eUx4msg Videos by Palladium, mostly silver related videos but also how to glaze a dish.
* https://www.youtube.com/user/metalicmario/videos Videos by '''goldenchild''', silver chloride, reverse electroplating, seasoning a dish, melting gold and silver, shotting, fume hood.

I have added Geo to that list now.

Göran


----------



## solar_plasma

I think you can add
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzQXL22XJJBAGfMrdwYKTHA
goldnscrap alias indeeditdoes, I think it's samuel-a, right?


----------



## Geo

Indeed. Sam has some very good videos.


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## Grelko

jason_recliner said:


> I'm not sure about my stannous solution, it's not very old and there's still tin at the bottom, but I haven't seen a positive result yet.
> 
> 
> 
> If your AP solution has been sitting around a week, there will be no gold in solution. Stannous chloride will not test for gold in solid: whether colloid, fine powder or flakes - only solution. There will very likely have BEEN gold in solution, with so much H2O2 deployed, but any that was digested will now be cemented as fine brown powder.
> 
> AP takes TIME. Lots of it.
> 
> If you think your solution is saturated or "full", Butcher made an excellent collation of posts about thermally rejuvenating saturated CuCl2 / AP, with very little waste. It took me several re-reads over weeks to understand it properly (I think). If you have some time on your hands, it's well worth a read. Probably even for more experienced members.
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=20006&p=204406&hilit=ferrous+ferric+cuprous+cupric+white+brown+main+solution+decant+cool#p204406
Click to expand...


Thanks for the link, I'll definately be reading it. I'm trying to make the least amount of waste possible.

I don't think the solution is full, but I could be wrong. Even though it is light green, it is also very diluted with peroxide, so it wouldn't show up dark green/brown. I read that 1 gallon of HCL is good enough for 2 pounds of material, "pins etc" so I thought 12 ounces of HCL and 12 peroxide should have been enough for only 3 ounces of pins, unless my math was off that day. Even still, it seems that it hasn't done much so far.

I know that if AP continues dissolving metals, it'll eventually cement the gold and other metals out according to the reactivity chart. I should have cleared it up a bit, I meant "all" of the solutions that I've made, not just this 1, but even on the first day or 2, my stannous tests still showed absolutely nothing.

I should have stated that I also knew about stannous not showing any results for solid forms of gold. "Not to sound rude or anything"

Interesting, I didn't know that colloidal gold could be a solid. I knew it was a certain form of gold in solution but, I actually thought that it became metallic gold once it dried. I'm still learning and reading all I can though.


----------



## Geo

Colloidal gold is a solid. The particles are so small that they take a very long time to settle out of solution. The purple color of a positive for gold is metallic gold precipitated by the tin chloride. 

I know what the problem is with your process. Anyone that has used AP would know and I can't believe that no one has told you. I will tell you again, for AP to work properly, you must use an oxidizer. Since H2O2 will dissolve gold, that leaves adding oxygen from the air. You need an air pump. This no guess, it is the cause of your problems. To keep trying to do this without doing what has been explained to you and then coming back and asking what could be going wrong makes it seem like your just being hard headed about it. I'm not trying to be rude at all. You need volume. A few cups of solution is not enough. Since AP is not like AR where you need to use as little as possible, you need an over abundance of solution for it to work smoothly. You need to use an air supply. This is not an optional part of the process. You need an air supply or it will take months to dissolve a few ounces of metal. If you can't find one or buy one, without an air pump, I'm not sure you will ever be able to make the process work. Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up. Dilute some HCl with water in a 50/50 mixture and add it to the process even if you have to use a bigger container. Once you do what we have been trying to tell you, you will see the difference.


----------



## jason_recliner

Just one minor nitpick if I may.



> Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up.


Shaking acids, in a literal sense, is probably not the safest of things to do. I will assume he meant sloshing or swirling, while his main focus was on its ineffectivity.


----------



## Shark

Geo said:


> Colloidal gold is a solid. The particles are so small that they take a very long time to settle out of solution. The purple color of a positive for gold is metallic gold precipitated by the tin chloride.
> 
> I know what the problem is with your process. Anyone that has used AP would know and I can't believe that no one has told you. I will tell you again, for AP to work properly, you must use an oxidizer. Since H2O2 will dissolve gold, that leaves adding oxygen from the air. You need an air pump. This no guess, it is the cause of your problems. To keep trying to do this without doing what has been explained to you and then coming back and asking what could be going wrong makes it seem like your just being hard headed about it. I'm not trying to be rude at all. You need volume. A few cups of solution is not enough. Since AP is not like AR where you need to use as little as possible, you need an over abundance of solution for it to work smoothly. *You need to use an air supply. This is not an optional part of the process.* You need an air supply or it will take months to dissolve a few ounces of metal. If you can't find one or buy one, without an air pump, I'm not sure you will ever be able to make the process work. Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up. Dilute some HCl with water in a 50/50 mixture and add it to the process even if you have to use a bigger container. Once you do what we have been trying to tell you, you will see the difference.




In my opinion, an air supply is a must for AP to work correctly. I have tried it without one and hated it, it took what seemed like forever. A simple air pump for a fish aquarium can be bought at Walmart for around $7 and a double a pump for around $12. That is pretty cheap for a tool to recover your gold. It will also greatly speed up the time it takes to recover it. Do your self a real favor and get an air pump, you won't regret it for the cost.


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## kurtak

I really like the idea of videos made by "trusted" members being added to the library &/or like the library a stand alone category of nothing but videos done by trusted members

Buy the way I don't think I have ever commented on the library - what an AWESOME job you guys are doing to put that together - THANKS for all the time & effort those of you working on it are putting into it :!: :!: :!: 

Kurt


----------



## Grelko

Geo said:


> Colloidal gold is a solid. The particles are so small that they take a very long time to settle out of solution. The purple color of a positive for gold is metallic gold precipitated by the tin chloride.
> 
> I know what the problem is with your process. Anyone that has used AP would know and I can't believe that no one has told you. I will tell you again, for AP to work properly, you must use an oxidizer. Since H2O2 will dissolve gold, that leaves adding oxygen from the air. You need an air pump. This no guess, it is the cause of your problems. To keep trying to do this without doing what has been explained to you and then coming back and asking what could be going wrong makes it seem like your just being hard headed about it. I'm not trying to be rude at all. You need volume. A few cups of solution is not enough. Since AP is not like AR where you need to use as little as possible, you need an over abundance of solution for it to work smoothly. You need to use an air supply. This is not an optional part of the process. You need an air supply or it will take months to dissolve a few ounces of metal. If you can't find one or buy one, without an air pump, I'm not sure you will ever be able to make the process work. Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up. Dilute some HCl with water in a 50/50 mixture and add it to the process even if you have to use a bigger container. Once you do what we have been trying to tell you, you will see the difference.



That's where I've gone wrong. I thought that the added oxygen in peroxide WAS the oxidizer, a mistake on my part. Seems to work for gold fingers though, but pins do have alot more metal to dissolve.

It's not that I was being hard-headed, it's that I'm 1 of the people that has an easier time watching someone else, than it is reading about it, unless it's a long drawn out explanation so I don't end up missing certain parts (That's most likely why I usually write long paragraphs also). I actually came to this site after watching a bunch of videos on the processes, and this site is the best place to fill in the missing parts.

So basically, as soon as I get a bubbler, instead of using these small mason jars, I could put my 3+ lbs of pins into a 5 gallon bucket, along with 3 gallons of HCL or so, and a very small amount of peroxide to get the process started, turn the bubbler on, and just let it go, checking on it every couple days and turning it off periodically when I need to. Then once everything looks to be dissolved, filter it, check the solution with stannous, and start the disposal process, or recharge the used AP and move on from there. 

I wasn't planning on making an abundance of solution because of pets and my nieces, but if I can find a good place to set the bucket so they won't be able to get into it, I'll definately be doing that because, I do have quite a bit of material to process.

The cheapest bubbler I've seen at the pet store was $30, that's why I haven't bought 1 yet.



jason_recliner said:


> Shaking acids, in a literal sense, is probably not the safest of things to do. I will assume he meant sloshing or swirling, while his main focus was on its ineffectivity.



Yes, it wasn't working. I was tightening the lid, and moving the mason jar up and down, in circles etc, (gently) for 30 seconds or so a couple times per day and/or using a long plastic spoon to mix around the pins. So, it would be more sloshing it around than actually shaking it because the metal pins in the jar could end up breaking the glass, which would most likely get me covered in acid and that definately wouldn't be fun.



Shark said:


> In my opinion, an air supply is a must for AP to work correctly. I have tried it without one and hated it, it took what seemed like forever. A simple air pump for a fish aquarium can be bought at Walmart for around $7 and a double a pump for around $12. That is pretty cheap for a tool to recover your gold. It will also greatly speed up the time it takes to recover it. Do your self a real favor and get an air pump, you won't regret it for the cost.



This is great news, that's a much better price than the pet store. The Walmart near me doesn't have an aquarium section for some odd reason but, I forgot that the other 1 a couple towns over does, so Ill be heading that way very soon.


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## Shark

Fish Aquarium supplies can be found in the dog and cat food section at our local Walmart. It may be different there, but might save you a trip.


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## Grelko

Shark said:


> Fish Aquarium supplies can be found in the dog and cat food section at our local Walmart. It may be different there, but might save you a trip.



I ran up to Walmart earlier today and found 1, you were right, it was near the dog/cat food. I bought the Aqua Culture ( 5-15 gallon, single outlet air pump) and an 8 foot hose for it. It was under $7, and under $2 for the piece of hose. Comes with a check valve to stop backflow. I can't turn it up or down, so it's either on or off depending if it's plugged in or not.

I read that another person on here had sealed the end of the hose and poked holes into it with a heated pin, instead of using a rock bubbler, because certain types of plastic can dissolve, so I might try this type of setup.

Thanks for all the help guys, now all I need to do, is find time to get this up and running.


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## Grelko

I'm checking to make sure that I am doing this correctly.


I made a 4 gallon bucket setup with a bubbler.

I mixed approximately 1 gallon of water and 1.5 gallons of HCL, put in close to 3.5 lbs of partially gold plated pins "which includes the original 3 oz of full plated ones". Yes, I know I should have seperated the pins instead of dumping them all in at once.

Edit - All of the pins that I used were slightly magnetic

This most likely isn't going to be enough solution to dissolve all of the material, but I can always more when I need to.

I drilled a small hole near the very top of the bucket for the hose to go through, and have the hose running through a small heavier piece of plastic drain pipe to keep it near the bottom of the bucket. I've attached the pump to the wall about 4 feet above it. I also have a piece of plywood covering the bucket with a brick to hold it down and keep out the rain.

(I'll see if I can get some pictures uploaded within the next few days)

The used solution from the fully plated pins was added to the bucket as well. I may have had a piece of aluminum or zinc among the pins because there was a small piece floating around the bucket fizzing for a minute.

The solution was a bit cloudy when I first mixed it together, which could have been from the original solution, or the water, or even if the pins had dirt on them.

About an hour later, the solution was mostly clear with a very light green color to it.

I turned off the pump after close to 6 hours, and will be turning it on again in the morning.


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## Geo

Sounds good so far but unless there are safety concerns, the pump should be running night and day.


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## bswartzwelder

I agree the pump should be running 24/7. Whether this is possible or not is a decision you will have to make. I run my setup outside even in bad weather. To do this, I invert a 5 gallon bucket and place a 12 inch square paver stone on top of it so that one edge of the paver stone is just slightly over the edge of the bucket. The paver stone is not centered over the bucket doing it this way. Next, I set a brick near the center of the bucket. Then, I set the air pump and the end of the extension cord powering it on the brick with both of the air pump hoses and the extension cord running over the edge of the paver stone closest to the bucket edge. Now, I place the inverted bucket over the pump and extension cord and put a nice heavy brick on it the hold it down in case is gets windy.

The inverted bucket rests on top of everything so that there is a slight gap where the hoses and cord exit over the paver stone. With the setup like this, even if it pours down raining, the extension cord end with the pump plugged into it is above the level of the pave sitting nicely on top of the brick. The brick on the paver keeps the most important items dry. It also lifts the pump up above the level of the bucket with the AP in it. In case of a power failure, it is possible the AP solution to siphon back out of the AP bucket. I can safely guarantee it will destroy the check valves inside the air pump if it reaches them. This keeps everything safe and allows operation 24/7.


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## Grelko

I've finally been able to take a couple pictures of my setup. I hope that they came out correctly and aren't too large or upsidedown. (of course they came out upsidedown, and in reverse order). First time posting pictures on here.

It's been around 10 days so far, and the solution isn't becoming any more green than it did the first day. Is this because it is approximately 60/40 acid/water? There are flakes floating around when I stir it. As I was saying before this consists of around 1 gallon of water and 1.5 gallons of HCL, then I put in close to 3.5 lbs of partially gold plated pins.

I'm not entirely sure if I should decant and filter, then add more HCL to the bucket or wait until all of the pins are completely dissolved first.

I don't have much room, so I have this setup right behind the garage.


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## Geo

If you have any, add some more copper(II) chloride. If not, add a cup full of 3% H2O2. That solution does not have enough copper in solution to make a good etchant. This is not my photo. I pulled it from the internet but it is copper(II) chloride and shows what it should look like.


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## Grelko

I wondered if that may have been the problem also, but I figured it was just taking longer to turn green because there was so much more material to dissolve.

I added right around a cup of peroxide to the solution and immediately it turned a darker green/yellow color. Looks like it's working properly now, thank you.


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## g_axelsson

When running pins in copper chloride the zinc can cement out the copper and make it a zinc chloride solution and that's not working. If you have enough copper chloride or oxidizer from the start it won't be any problem, but without that it can take some time for a new batch to start working.
This isn't the same problem when running fingers, as circuit board traces are made from pure copper.

Göran


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## solar_plasma

One way to avoid problems can be to start with dissolving only copper with HCl and a little H2O2 without gold bearing material. Let it dissolve until the liquid discolors from a beautiful emerald green (just like you see it in Geo's picture) to a dark green brown almost black. Then activate it only with HCl and air at room temperature.


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## Grelko

g_axelsson said:


> When running pins in copper chloride the zinc can cement out the copper and make it a zinc chloride solution and that's not working. If you have enough copper chloride or oxidizer from the start it won't be any problem, but without that it can take some time for a new batch to start working.
> This isn't the same problem when running fingers, as circuit board traces are made from pure copper.
> 
> Göran



This may be the problem. As I was saying, I added around a cup of peroxide and the solution changed color, but after a day, it went back to clear/cloudy. I'm not sure what color zinc chloride is, but since zinc would cement out the copper, the green color would go with it.

I've added another cup and a half and it went right back to the dark yellow/greenish brown just like it did the first time. Except this time I made sure to mix it up very well also, instead of just letting the pump do its job. I'll have to keep an eye on it for a couple days to see if it goes clear again.



solar_plasma said:


> One way to avoid problems can be to start with dissolving only copper with HCl and a little H2O2 without gold bearing material. Let it dissolve until the liquid discolors from a beautiful emerald green (just like you see it in Geo's picture) to a dark green brown almost black. Then activate it only with HCl and air at room temperature.



I may have to try this since I tend to over do it on the peroxide still. If I use the pre-made copper chloride instead of peroxide, I shouldn't really have to worry about dissolving gold into solution much. "I'd still test it anyways to be sure"


A while back I was processing fingers and a few other small plated pieces I had. The flakes/powder came out to 0.8g. It is still dirty with a good bit of green solder mask in it, but it's a start


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## g_axelsson

Zinc chloride is colorless so it fits in perfectly with your description. Pins are often made of brass and contains around 30-40% zinc.

Save your old copper chloride solutions and use that to start the next batch. The way you are doing it is fine, add some more peroxide if the color disappears, the copper is exposed and the cemented copper often covers the gold so it will dissolve before the gold is attacked. Any dissolved gold will cement out on the remaining pins.
Just recover all sediments as cemented gold could be very fine.

Göran


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## jason_recliner

In other words, once you start your copper chloride solution, you should never need peroxide again. Which serves to highlight how poor a choice of name "AP" or acid/peroxide really is.


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## solar_plasma

jason_recliner said:


> In other words, once you start your copper chloride solution, you should never need peroxide again. Which serves to highlight how poor a choice of name "AP" or acid/peroxide really is.



What's about:
Copper catalyzed acid leach CCAL
Copper catalyzed acid reaction CCAR or just CAR
Copper catalyzed acid reaction leach CCARL or just CARL

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Let CARL do the job! Or, hey, just put it back into your CAR!


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## jason_recliner

Let me see... Reuse spent acids in your CAR. Nope, I can't see that ever being misunderstood.


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## g_axelsson

If you have too much pins and too little old copper chloride it still will turn into zinc chloride solution by cementation.

The name AP is a sad mistake as it isn't even necessary to use peroxide in the start. It will just take a while but oxygen from the atmosphere will work it's way into the solution and slowly start it up. I used peroxide seven years ago and managed to dissolve a lot of gold at the end. This was just before it was revealed on the forum that the peroxide could dissolve gold.
I've never used peroxide since then for the copper chloride process. That's why I always write copper chloride instead of AP to try to get into peoples minds that it is a bad name.

For a test, put some contact fingers in a jar, add HCl and water and put somewhere safe outside, far from things that could rust (or in a fume hood) and leave it for a month. Add water and HCl if it evaporates too much. You'll see that a month is about what it takes to run fingers that way. A bubbler makes it go so much faster but the principle is the same.

CARL or CAR was a good try, in the industry the process is known as "ammoniacal copper chloride etch" or just "copper chloride etch". It's commonly used with ammonium for complexing the CuCl to make it soluble, we use HCl for the same purpose and it also helps regenerate the leach as a source of chloride ions to form the CuCl2. 
http://www.www.journalamme.org/papers_amme03/1229.pdf

Göran


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## Geo

The main reaction is increasing the oxidation of the target metal. The metal will oxidize and then the metal oxide is dissolved in solution using an acid. The same thing happens to gold when we dissolve it. The gold oxidizes to gold(III) oxide (Au2O3) which is soluble in HCl and nitric acid. To the naked eye, You just see the reaction and the gold going into solution. The same happens to copper. HCl alone will not dissolve copper metal. There needs to be a small amount of copper oxide to put the copper into solution. Copper oxide is stable and can be stored easily. It can be made by exposing copper dust to the atmosphere. Green copper oxide will form and will not decompose. Adding copper oxide to HCl creates copper(II) chloride instantly.


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## Grelko

The solution went back to clear/cloudy once again, it must be zinc chloride. I was going to give it another day or two, and if it doesn't start turning more green by then, I was thinking about siphoning about half of the solution out (which should take a good portion of the zinc chloride with it) and add fresh HCL to it.

I do happen have about half a gallon of used AP that was left over from fingers and a couple other pieces that I was getting ready to dispose of. So far all I've done to the used AP was add clean copper wire since I didn't have any bus bars at the time. It's nice and green.

Actually, now that I think about it, a better idea would be to filter the used AP, siphon half a gallon from the bucket and just add the used AP to it.


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## g_axelsson

Now you get it! 8) 

Göran


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## Grelko

Also saves me a couple dollars, since I won't have to buy more HCL yet


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## Geo

It seems that the pins may be some proprietary metal. Take a small amount from your AP bucket and try them in hot HCl and see if you can see the reaction. If you can see the reaction with just HCl, you may be able to dissolve most of the base metal in just HCl before moving it to the AP bucket.


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## Grelko

Geo said:


> It seems that the pins may be some proprietary metal. Take a small amount from your AP bucket and try them in hot HCl and see if you can see the reaction. If you can see the reaction with just HCl, you may be able to dissolve most of the base metal in just HCl before moving it to the AP bucket.



Thanks for the info, I'll have to try that soon as I get a chance.

About a week ago, I took out half a gallon of solution from the bucket and added some of my used AP "filtered it first". So far the solution in the bucket is staying nice and green. 

I've been seperating the pins, that I have been slowly gathering up for the next batch once this is finished. Full plated, partial, magnetic or non. This should help ALOT next time because, the ones in the bucket are around 3.5 lbs of every type mixed together.


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## solar_plasma

On the long run you might want to read about the sulfuric cell. Even I tried it myself I can't see any meaning in dissolving pins, while there is a so much more cost effective method with actually no waste.


----------



## solar_plasma

g_axelsson said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would be nice to sticky a list of acceptable videos, along with titles and links and, maybe a few comments.
> 
> 
> 
> I started on such a list on my wiki, http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/YouTube
> 
> So far it's only links to a few of our members...
> * https://www.youtube.com/user/sreetips/videos Videos by kadriver, contains a lot about silver and gold but also palladium and platinum.
> * https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7MJW65g2CFT9wr0eUx4msg Videos by Palladium, mostly silver related videos but also how to glaze a dish.
> * https://www.youtube.com/user/metalicmario/videos Videos by '''goldenchild''', silver chloride, reverse electroplating, seasoning a dish, melting gold and silver, shotting, fume hood.
> 
> I have added Geo to that list now.
> 
> Göran
Click to expand...




solar_plasma said:


> Thanks, Göran, just the thread I thought of. Yes, Palladium, that's just why I thought that thread.



From the last nitric thread Making nitric acid failed

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIgKGGJkt1MrNmhq3vRibYA Nurdrage, maybe not a member, but informative


----------



## Grelko

I've come into another snag in the process. I believe that the solution is dissolving the iron in some of the pins because, the solution has turned a dark brown/red and it seems like alot of the pins/powder in the bottom of the bucket have solidified. I can still break it apart with the plastic dowel rod that I use to mix it with but, it doesn't seem that anymore is going to dissolve.

I'll try to get a picture up one of these days, but the way I can explain it, is that the solution looks almost like a reddish chocolate milk in color and thickness.

I figure the solution is full and I should filter what I can, then recharge, or replace it with fresh.

The last time I filtered about half a gallon, the dried powder had gold flakes but the rest was red/brown with green in it.

I still need to do washes for the powder because the green is indicating copper and the red "rust color" should indicate iron.

Either way, after everything is dissolved, I was going to take all of the powder and redo it again as much as needed until all I have left is the gold. I'm just taking my time since this is my first try on a batch of pins.

It seems like more than half of the pins have been dissolved so that part is working, even though it is very slow, even with the pump.

Next time I try to remove plating from the gold pins, I'll definately be looking into a sulfuric cell, since I still can't find any nitric in my area.


----------



## Geo

You don't have enough solution for the amount of metal you are trying to dissolve. The color of the solution is a good indication of copper(I) oxide.


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## Grelko

I had a feeling that would be my main problem seeing that I had approximately 3.5 lbs of material and only 3 gallons of HCL to use when I started "plus water and peroxide". I was going to decant/filter most of the solution and add fresh to it. 

I may need to do this a couple more times to get everything dissolved, possibly around 8-10 gallons of HCL for the 3.5 lbs of material. "I'm using a four gallon bucket"

A sulfuric cell is definately going to be alot easier and MUCH faster for pins next time I do this. Reading that there is very little/no waste produced with it, is great to know, because doing this with HCL, there is alot to dispose of when I do get finished.

I didn't want to mess around with electric and sulfuric acid at first, but the more I learn about it, the easier it will be when I go that route.


----------



## Grelko

Not having enough solution was definately the problem. I decanted/filtered about 75% of the entire bucket, then added 1.5 gallons of fresh HCL to it. I thought I still had around half of the pins left to dissolve, but it turned out that nearly all of the material, that was solidified at the bottom, was powder. Also, it must have been mostly copper or zinc, because there's barely any powder at the bottom now.

There is probably 1/2 an ounce of pins left to dissolve from the 3.5 pounds of material, then I can filter the entire thing, and put what's left into a mason jar for further cleaning.

I started evaporating some of the used solution that I will be disposing of. It came out to being approximately 6 gallons total for the 3.5 pounds of materials. 4 gallons of HCL, 2 gallons of water, and a bit of peroxide.


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## FrugalRefiner

Be sure to check all solutions with stannous chloride before treating them for waste prior to disposal.

Dave


----------



## Grelko

FrugalRefiner said:


> Be sure to check all solutions with stannous chloride before treating them for waste prior to disposal.
> 
> Dave




When I'm finished, I was going to filter the entire solution, evaporate everything down to 1 or 2 gallons, test with stannous, toss in a copper bus bar, re-filter and test again with stannous just incase.

All of the powder that I gathered up beforehand, including anything that cements out after adding the copper bus bar, I will be cleaning and re-processing.

Then, put in a piece of stainless to reclaim the copper, or instead, use iron to push out the copper and zinc. 

I'll filter afterwards, add baking soda "sodium bicarbonate" or lime to get the PH to 7, then filter it one last time to remove any iron powder.

The leftover solution should just be salt water, that I can toss down the drain, then I can take the different powders (copper, iron, zinc) to the scrapyard.

I hope I remembered this right, if not, I'll re-read the proper disposal method over and over until I have it completely memorized.


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## Geo

Stainless steel is a poor choice for cementing copper. Use just plain steel. Stainless will be slow to react and is more expensive than scrap steel.


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## jason_recliner

Iron will not cement zinc, which is more reactive. Zinc will be dropped in your final cleanup with sodium or calcium.


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## Grelko

Geo said:


> Stainless steel is a poor choice for cementing copper. Use just plain steel. Stainless will be slow to react and is more expensive than scrap steel.



Thanks for the info, I thought the stainless might cement the copper more "pure" than plain steel, incase I got bored and felt like trying to make a couple bars. If I just take it to the scrapyard, I'm sure they'll give me #2 copper price either way.

I'll most likely just use plain steel because this took so long in the first place, and I'm slowly depopulating a couple hundred pounds of motherboards, etc. that I'll be processing, after these pins are finished.

Edit - Thanks Jason, I couldn't remember if iron or zinc was higher on the reactivity chart. I'm still learning.


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## Grelko

I've finished filtering out the bucket of pins, the total amount of powder/flakes look to be about the size of a golfball, but it's very dirty. It's still wet also, so I'm not sure of the weight. 

Since I'll be disposing of my leftover solution in the next few weeks, I'm making sure that I bought the correct material, that I need to neutralize it for proper disposal. 

I have a new piece of copper pipe that I will be cutting down the side, flatten out, drill a hole, and hang from the side of the bucket to cement any remaining PMs in solution. I also have pieces of scrap iron from old PC towers etc, that I can use afterwards.

I have litmus paper to test the PH of the solution.

I was going to buy baking soda "sodium bicarbonate", but 40 pounds of lime was under $5 at Lowes.

I may need to crush this up since it is "pelletized" or mix with water, but if it is possible just to use it without the extra water adding to the total amount of waste, that would be better. The second picture shows the mesh size.


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## jason_recliner

It could be calcium magnesium carbonate. There are way too many "percents" in there for me to be sure.
If so, Kurtak has reported success in the below thread.

I use calcium hydroxide, thanks to MarcoP for the suggestion. It is commonly called slaked lime, or builders lime, and is a very fine white dust.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=21273&p=228479&hilit=calcium+hydroxide#p228093


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## Grelko

jason_recliner said:


> It could be calcium magnesium carbonate. There are way too many "percents" in there for me to be sure.
> If so, Kurtak has reported success in the below thread.
> 
> I use calcium hydroxide, thanks to MarcoP for the suggestion. It is commonly called slaked lime, or builders lime, and is a very fine white dust.
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=21273&p=228479&hilit=calcium+hydroxide#p228093




All the different percents is the reason why I posted the pictures. I bought this in the outside gardening section.

I asked if they had slaked lime in gardening but they said no. I should have asked in the building material section instead.

I'll test it out on a sample, if it doesn't seem to work properly, it didn't cost much, and I could always use it in the yard/garden.

Thanks for the link, I'll keep an eye out for "calcium hydroxide" also, and see if it was near the bricks and bags of cement.

The flakes/powder that was from the 3.5 pounds of partial plated "some full plated" pins, came out to 8.2g, plus another 0.9g from a test with fingers a while back. Total amount 9.1g dirty powder, flakes, and some green mask. There may be a little more after I see what cements out from adding copper to the solution.


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## Geo

At 92% calcium carbonate, it should work okay for neutralizing waste acid. I don't see anything that would cause problems or be dangerous.


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## bswartzwelder

> "I have litmus paper to test the PH of the solution."



pH test strips will tell you (within a range) what the pH is of the solution being tested. Litmus paper will not. The only results litmus paper will tell you is if the solution is an acid, base, or neutral.


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## Grelko

Geo said:


> At 92% calcium carbonate, it should work okay for neutralizing waste acid. I don't see anything that would cause problems or be dangerous.



At 92%, I'm wondering if there is chance of it not raising the PH far as I need it to go, but I can always use baking soda, etc, to finish. I read that I should take it up around 9 first, then lower it back to 7 to make sure everything has dropped.

I'm just gathering up the flakes/powder, until I make sure that I KNOW how to dispose of the waste properly first thing.



bswartzwelder said:


> "I have litmus paper to test the PH of the solution."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pH test strips will tell you (within a range) what the pH is of the solution being tested. Litmus paper will not. The only results litmus paper will tell you is if the solution is an acid, base, or neutral.
Click to expand...


Yes, you are correct, I don't know why I keep calling it litmus paper. It is Hydrion brand PH test paper, but it only goes from PH 5.5 - 8.0, I bought it at a health food store. I should order a roll of the test paper from the pharmacy eventually, because they can get the 0.0 - 14, but it's a bit expensive. It would be worth it, since some solutions require a certain PH to work properly.


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## g_axelsson

Is this too expensive?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/160-Strips-Full-Range-pH-Alkaline-Acid-1-14-Test-Paper-Water-Litmus-Testing-Kit-/331542549969?

I bought a set but haven't tested it against a pH standard so I don't know how exact it is. At least my acid has a very low pH. 8) 

Göran


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## Grelko

g_axelsson said:


> Is this too expensive?
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/160-Strips-Full-Range-pH-Alkaline-Acid-1-14-Test-Paper-Water-Litmus-Testing-Kit-/331542549969?
> 
> I bought a set but haven't tested it against a pH standard so I don't know how exact it is. At least my acid has a very low pH. 8)
> 
> Göran



Thanks for the link. I should get that instead, its ALOT cheaper. The only problem is that the card I use for online purchases goes to $-5.95 if I don't use it for a while, and also costs another $4 to add funds to it, so the total for that small pack would be closer to $12 instead of $1. 

If I'm remembering correctly, the type the pharmacy had, was either a 10 or 20 foot roll for around $40. I don't need nearly that much. Then again, if I keep recovering/refining for a couple years, it would be worth getting it.

Edit - fixed number.


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## g_axelsson

Do like me then, sell something online and leave the funds on a paypal account. Then use that for buying small stuff online.
Or find another way of adding funds to a paypal account.

Göran


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## Grelko

I have a question about stannous, since I've been working on disposing of most of my used AP solution.

When I first started learning about this I made a small batch of stannous chloride as an acquaintance test.

5.2g of 100% tin split shot fishing weights, and 10ml of HCL in a dropper bottle.

If I put a small piece of iron in with it, the tin should drop out, then I can filter/dry the tin powder and re-use it for another batch of stannous? I've wondered about this because the only materials in the solution, is HCL and the 100% tin split shot.

Or, evaporate the stannous until dry powder, heat to a dull red to remove the remaining HCL, converting it back to metallic tin (or is that just when using nitric?), and reclaim the tin for another batch?

If that won't work, I'll was going toss it into my AP bucket after cementing/filtering out the copper, since it's a very small amount. Or, is it possible to go ahead and neutralize the stannous just as it is?


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## Grelko

I've been slowly working on disposing of my used AP solution.

I was trying to collect the copper according to this link before disposal http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5994

I added a piece of steel from an old computer that I had.

I let the bucket sit for a couple hours and checked on it to see if the copper was starting to cement to the steel, nothing yet. I waited a couple more hours, nothing. I turned on my bubbler and waited about six more hours. 

When I went back to check, the piece of steel was almost completely dissolved but, there still wasn't any copper sticking to the rest of it, so I put in a thicker piece and the bubbler has been running for the last few hours, to see if that does anything. (Or should I turn the bubbler off, and give it a couple days?)

If this step in the disposal process doesn't work properly, I figure that I could just neutralize the solution and take the mixed powder to the waste management or scrapyard once it's dried.


Edit - I'm guessing that the bubbling action is the reason that the copper isn't cementing to the piece of steel and could explain why it's dissolving quickly also. So basically I'm just mixing the powder together at the bottom of the bucket. I'm going to turn the bubbler off and give it a couple days.


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## jason_recliner

Unless you will never use the AP (copper chloride leach) process again, reuse your AP.
When it's saturated, iron will replace copper.


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## Grelko

I'll be keeping some of it, I just wanted to get rid of some, plus I can see exactly how the disposal method works. I'm close to 6 or 7 gallons right now and didn't want too much around because of my nieces and pets. Right now, I just have one 4 gallon bucket about 75% full and some mason jars "plastic lids" and HCL containers filled with the used solution.

I was reading in another post about ferric chloride being used for silver, so I might keep some of the iron solution afterwards. http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=19838 

(Part of butcher's long post - This leaves you with the white copper I chloride powders, with some HCl add this dissolves and becomes copper II chloride, which can be used, as you know to dissolve copper, and if you had silver or gold on the copper you were dissolving above, you will be left with gold foils or silver chloride powders after adding the HCl.)


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## jason_recliner

I'm curious, how much material have you processed in that 6-7 gallons?


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## Grelko

jason_recliner said:


> I'm curious, how much material have you processed in that 6-7 gallons?



I still have a gallon of fresh HCL. 

I used about 2 gallons of water mixed in with 3 or 4 gallons of HCL and some peroxide, for a pound of ram fingers and 3.5 pounds plated pins which included some full plated ones.


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## Grelko

Geo said:


> At 92% calcium carbonate, it should work okay for neutralizing waste acid. I don't see anything that would cause problems or be dangerous.



I had to quote this again :lol: :roll: I took about 1/2 a cup of the garden lime and dumped it into my bucket with my AP solution.

Apparently this type of garden lime likes to make ALOT of foam when mixed with HCL, I had to run into the garage, to grab a 5 gallon bucket and a large cup, to hurry and bail out all the foam it was producing before it overflowed. It's that type of yellowish/brown foam that has the bubbles that never seem to pop.

If I would have done the entire bucket all at once, I could have invited people over for a foam party, because only 1/2 a cup made enough foam to fill the 5 gallon bucket.

I tried a bit of baking soda on a small amount of my HCL solution. It fizzed a little then stopped, no huge amount of foam. I might just use that to neutralize the rest of this. I'll have to head over to Home Depot sometime, since Lowe's doesn't carry "slaked lime" and I don't want to waste all my money on a bunch of baking soda next time.

Looks like I'll be using the other 39.5 pounds of garden lime for the garden and yard.


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## jason_recliner

It is good practise to always acquaint yourself with the reactions. The more effective anything is, the greater a reaction it can give. Sometimes violently.

Instead of dumping it in, try sprinkling some in whilst stirring.


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## Grelko

jason_recliner said:


> It is good practise to always acquaint yourself with the reactions. The more effective anything is, the greater a reaction it can give. Sometimes violently.
> 
> Instead of dumping it in, try sprinkling some in whilst stirring.



I'll give it another a try tomorrow, but only use a small amount to see how it reacts (which I should have done in the first place  ). I dumped in the 1/2 cup while I was stirring it, which is probably why it foamed up so quick.

I did notice however, that once the foaming stops, the bubbles basically stay there and look dried up after a couple minutes. If I spray water on the foam after that, it falls down easily.


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## Geo

A spray of water will knock the foam down. A garden sprayer full of water and spray the foam as it's made.


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## Grelko

This is working much better now.

I VERY SLOWLY added close to 5 cups, about a tablespoon at a time, while stirring it until most of the foam was gone each time, and also using a spray bottle to knock the foam down whenever the bubbles got bigger.

I haven't checked the PH yet, but it's slowly looking more clear. Atleast I won't make the mistake of dumping a bunch in next time. :lol: 

I didn't think it was going to take as long as it is to raise the PH, I'm about 2 hours into it so far, and I know It'll take another couple hours to get close to 4 gallons neutralized, but I'm not in any hurry (This would be why people evaporate most of their solution first). Then I'll let it settle for a day or so, decant the clear solution, get the powder at the bottom, dry it, and take it to the scrapyard. If they won't accept it, I'll take it to the waste management building. it was 3.5 pounds of mixed pins, so I don't think it would contain much more than iron, zinc, copper, and maybe some tin or aluminum.

If anyone is wondering, I didn't reclaim the copper, so I'm just neutralizing it this first time since I'm learning the disposal method "acquaintance test". I still have another gallon+ of used AP that I'm going to keep for the next couple batches.

Back when I had the solution full of copper, before I added the iron, I ended up getting a bit more black powder, I didn't weigh it yet, it wasn't much.


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## searcher1x

> This shouldn't take quite as long as it would with brand new pins because alot of them got scratched up when I was pulling them out of the black plastic connectors. I used a heat gun to warm up the plastic a bit, and the pins came right out.



Good tip Grelko! Thanks, I'll put that one too good use


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## searcher1x

> If you don't have access to a sulfuric cell and you want to get your gold off the pins, then the best way and fastest way I know is to make your Aqua Regia (Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach) and then add 50% of water to the solution and put it on heat. What will happen is that while you're trying to evaporate all the water you put in the beaker, the ar will be loosening off the gold and when you stir the solution you'll see your gold floating around.
> 
> To remove the gold really fast, you can simply make the AR and add it to medium heat for 1 hour, and then after that, add the 50% volume of water to the solution and turn the heat on high. Most of your gold will flake off but remember, as you evaporate the water out, you're making the solution more concentrated and it will eventually dissolve the gold if you let the solution get to its initial volume level without the water added.
> 
> The best thing to do after you see plenty of gold flakes swirling around in the solution is to filter the solution to capture all the gold, and then place the solution back in the beaker and star it again until all your gold is flaked off.
> 
> The key is adding the water. The water will hold the AR from actually dissolving the gold, but it will be strong enough to start dissolving some of the base metals. It works for me and that's how I do my fiber pinless cpu's.



MrMylar, questions Sir: 

1) From the technique you just outlined am I correct in assuming that you don't have to dissolve all of the base metal first before causing the pins too flake?

2) Do you need to remove any of the base metals first using AP first (such as lead or copper) before applying your diluted, hot AR/water boil technique? If so, how much and which ones?

3) My understanding is that the main objective of using AR is to put the gold in solution which then allows you to filter off any remaining solids. However (if I understand correctly) by the addition of the excess water, the AR is weakened to the point that it's not strong enough to put the gold in solution, but of sufficient strength to dissolve enough of the base metals to flake the gold without having to dissolve all of the base metals first, is this correct?

4) Will this technique work on pins that are composed mostly of magnetic materials or would it be a good idea to run the pins through a hot HLC/water bath then a hot sulfuric/water bath next before using your diluted, hot AR/water boil technique?

Thanks for your response in advance, any and all positive feedback is truly appreciated


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## g_axelsson

Mr Mylar was banned from the forum a while ago so you won't get any answers from him.

In the quote you posted there is a glaring error, AR or Aqua Regia is not made of Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach. Aqua Regia is a mixture of hydrochloric acid and nitric acid, nothing else. (Muriatic acid is just another name of hydrochloric acid.)

About the procedure I have no comments as I haven't tested it myself.

Göran


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## searcher1x

g_axelsson said:


> Mr Mylar was banned from the forum a while ago so you won't get any answers from him.
> 
> In the quote you posted there is a glaring error, AR or Aqua Regia is not made of Muriatic Acid + Chlorine/bleach. Aqua Regia is a mixture of hydrochloric acid and nitric acid, nothing else. (Muriatic acid is just another name of hydrochloric acid.)
> 
> About the procedure I have no comments as I haven't tested it myself.
> 
> Göran



Wow, you're absolutely right, I didn't catch that at first. Guess I should pay a little closer attention to what I'm reading.

Just for clarity, I didn't make the post, MrMylar did. I was just questioning the process. What he claimed was contrary to everything I have read and learned so far. Thought perhaps I has missed something along the way.


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## Grelko

searcher1x said:


> 1) From the technique you just outlined am I correct in assuming that you don't have to dissolve all of the base metal first before causing the pins too flake?
> 
> 2) Do you need to remove any of the base metals first using AP first (such as lead or copper) before applying your diluted, hot AR/water boil technique? If so, how much and which ones?



Let's see if I can answer a couple of these for you.

Another post that you had, talking about a bubbler, you don't really NEED one, but it will definately cut you're time dissolving material by alot. The 3.5 pounds of pins that I had, would have probably taken close to 8 months to finish "I didn't want to find out :lol: ", but with a bubbler, I think it took about 3 weeks or so. Even heating the solution will speed up the process, boiling, direct sunlight etc. Still takes a good while to dissolve alot of material.

1. --- I ended up having to dissolve everything because, I most likely dissolved some gold from adding alot of peroxide (H2O2). 

As far as I've read, if you put copper into HCL and just let it sit there a while "maybe a couple weeks/months", it'll form copper chloride (CuCl2) simply because the air gets into it slowly. If you use copper chloride, without peroxide, you "should" be able to get the gold flakes off of the pins without having to dissolve everything. (I haven't tried this yet, but I have more pins to work on eventually)

2. --- I haven't used AR yet, but I believe it's possible to use it to dissolve everything, then precipitate the gold with SMB after getting rid of the nitric in solution (I'm not sure if PGMs would precipitate with it). I would atleast put everything into HCL, to get rid of any solder first, because you don't want Tin to get dissolved by nitric, because it's very hard to get it out/filter. It'll turn into a gel type substance (Metastannic acid) that can trap your gold. (Others can add alot more information to this)


If someone notices that any of my responses need correcting, please let me know, because I really dislike accidently giving out mis-information. Plus it'll help me learn and remember the "proper" ways to process certain materials.


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## Shark

> 2. --- I haven't used AR yet, but I believe it's possible to use it to dissolve everything, then precipitate the gold with SMB after getting rid of the nitric in solution



Sounds like a good time to try copperas.


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## MarcoP

Before you do anything, get rid of the tin.

Marco


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## Grelko

Shark said:


> Sounds like a good time to try copperas.



I should look into using that sometime. There should be alot of information on here about copperas (FeSO4). Basically all I've been using so far is HCL and H2O2 until I get a fumehood because of my neighbors. That's why I haven't tried nitric (HNO3) yet. I was going to setup a sulfuric (H2SO4) cell eventually, but I always end up getting side tracked :roll: Lately, I've been working on my pile of chips.

Incase anyone is wondering, I've been putting the chemical formulas in () so that I can remember them. I never learned chemistry in school.


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## Wjblcd2019$

I've started doing the same thing how can I get n do it right


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## Cap1

Hello All, I purchased hydrochloric acid from Bunnings in Australia and hydrogen peroxide from a chemist. Mixed the two to get an AP solution and the color turns red without adding any metals to the mix. I've seen in many videos the making of this AP mixture but never turning red. Could one or the other chemical be faulty or just expired? Or, overlook the red color of the AP solution and continue with the gold process.


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## Yggdrasil

Cap1 said:


> Hello All, I purchased hydrochloric acid from Bunnings in Australia and hydrogen peroxide from a chemist. Mixed the two to get an AP solution and the color turns red without adding any metals to the mix. I've seen in many videos the making of this AP mixture but never turning red. Could one or the other chemical be faulty or just expired? Or, overlook the red color of the AP solution and continue with the gold process.


Never premix things, shelf life drops like a lead sinker, and the actual need for the chemical added may be a lot less then the mixture you have.
Another thing is that AP is not an Acid Peroxide leach after all, it is a Copper Chloride etch/leach and it don't need Peroxide at all.
It needs HCl, Copper and Oxygen. Find some oxidized green copper, put it in HCl and start bubbling air through it.


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## Deano

The HCl sold in Bunnings and many retail outlets is usually packaged under the Diggers brand.
It has been used for titanium removal from mineral sands and has low levels of titanium 2 chloride in solution.
If heated in an oxidising environment the titanium 2 chloride converts to titanium 3 chloride which has a pink to mauve colour, this is what you see in your solution.
It will not interfere with digestion of gold but will require excess levels of reducer during the precipitation of gold stage as the titanium 3 acts as an oxidiser and inhibits gold precipitation.
You have to add enough reducing agent to get the titanium 3 back to titanium 2 before the gold will fully precipitate.
The HCl is usually sold in 20 litre drums and is labelled as having a HCL level around 27%, not the usual 32% technical grade.
For most uses such as removal of mortar from brickwork the Diggers HCl is fine, it is only in niche applications such as precious metals processing that there are problems with precipitation from solution.
Deano


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