# [Electrolisis] First cycle: disaster! Hundreds of questions.



## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

All today i went to try my first Electolisis cycle.
I had a lot of problems, someone i understood, some one not.
I'm going to give you photos and details, hoping (but i'm quite sure u are patient enough) to get answers and help.

As first i made a "1 piece" gold from my jewelery 18kt scrap and my two 22kt coins, using an electric furnace, and obtained a 55,5gr piece more 1,7gr of unattached gold.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

First problem i experienced, is gold solded on my "inox molder" that's because gold was too liquid compared what i tought before to start, and it dropped too fastly, covering a "not fluxed inox part". (CLARIFICATION: I just use this stainless steel container to CAST gold melted with an electic furnace)
A bit of loose. BAD!
I started with 58gr and finished with 57,2. Some lost on inox, some lost cose there was 3 little little stones on a scrap i think they burnt.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

And now... my Elec-System.
I didnt received yet my inox clamps, so i used a "supposed-provvisory" inox one...


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## Noxx (Mar 30, 2008)

You should melt gold in a crucible instead on another metal...


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

So... i stopped my piece of gold in some-mode.... Made salt solution for cathode and salt-water-hydrogenperoxide in the crucible... Put gold in the membrane, well positioned wires... Bottom of my clumb in solution too...


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

Well... Ready to power UP. Turned on... 12V 10A .


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

And here is my first real BIG problem...
After a while, solution start to change color (OK), but something starting to come up from solution... What the damn is it ? Never seen in this forum, or in videos i checked! AFRAID about it and sure it was something wrong...


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

During this i used to check my stannous chloride and HCL solution...
It worked fine, damn! At least 1 thing went good!


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

Well.. After 3 hours of power... it was very far to be dissolved... I improoved amper to 10 every time it reached a less value...
So i decided to STOP and filter ('cose the duty i saw before) solution to a becker to check and go on. (only 50% of gold piece was dissolved).
Little parts of supposed inox clumb was dissolved too (ARGH!).

This is wat i got in solution! (TERRIBLE, what is it??)


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

Panic! I decided to wash this duty and put into the filter->backer ...
This is what i got.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

Once stored filterd duty (i dont know what is it, so i store all awaiting your help!) i decided to filter again solution, cose whased duty dropped again in the becker...
And... My God! HORRIBLE! Solution changed color during filtering, seemed starting dropping metals...
I used an inox funnel to filter... Same i exposed to my equipment photo some days ago. And i think Inox start the reaction of DROPPING metals (dont know wich one neighter...)


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

Changed the item used to filter in a plastic one...
Used new filters...
And filtered solution remained in the rest just wrong filterd...
Prepared SMB in hot water solution and dropped.
Checked for gold residual in solution once bottom dropped.
No gold... Good. Start to filter and do some wash (not so much, i'm pretty sure my precipitation is really full of duty)...
Well... This is what i got in the final. (lot of thing!)


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

Dryed with an Hair-phone... And stored.


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## Irons (Mar 30, 2008)

Inox (Stainless Steel is a base metal) will go into solution before the Gold will. Any Gold that goes into solution will precipitate right back out on the Inox.

Do not use Inox. Use glass or ceramic.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

Lasst damned problem...
Membrane i used... CERAMIC.
I'm sure it DRINKS solution with gold...
Because it released some yellow solution after we emptied it 2 or 3 times...
Solution contained gold (Stannous check). I reput this solution on becker smb-dropping during it was coming out... But i'm pretty sure it drunk other parts...
In fact i noticed strange black point out of it... It seems gold or other tried to go on cathode passing the ceramic membrane...
I tested liquid in cathode with stannous and it resulted NEGATIVE to gold.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

And my last post...
I stored all as i saied...

1 and 2 are duty found in the membrane filtering it.
3 is back side of filter on the inox funnel i used for first part.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

> You should melt gold in a crucible instead on another metal...



i melt gold in an electric furnace with graphite fluxed crucible. I just casted gold to the inox.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

> Inox (Stainless Steel is a base metal) will go into solution before the Gold will. Any Gold that goes into solution will precipitate right back out on the Inox.
> 
> Do not use Inox. Use glass or ceramic.



So did u mean i have to use glass or ceramic as climb to sustain gold/anode in the membrane ? Do they conduct electicity as well  ?

And Did you mean duty i found in membrane is gold precipitaded with stainless steel released from the climb ?


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 30, 2008)

My questions:

1) What is the duty ?
2) What i have to do with it ?
3) It seems i got more then my 50% of gold adding duty + dropped powder, why ? Do i have to mix all and melt ?
4) If Ceramic drink and tend to release out as membrane, what i have to use ?
5) So LONG time to liquify 57gr of about 830/1000 gold ? (supposed 6 hours with 12V 10A)
6) All u say is welcome...


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## lazersteve (Mar 30, 2008)

Alpha said:


> 1) What is the duty ?
> 2) What i have to do with it ?
> 3) It seems i got more then my 50% of gold adding duty + dropped powder, why ? Do i have to mix all and melt ?
> 4) If Ceramic drink and tend to release out as membrane, what i have to use ?
> ...



1)Most likely gold mixed with base metals and silver, precipitated by inox (Stainless Steel) funnel and casting mold. Looks to me like some of the gold alloyed with the inox dish you cast it in (dark discolored spot).

2) Incinerate to red heat, wash with hot muriatic, then hot water, then hot ammonium hydroxide, then water. Finish up by redissolving in HCl-Cl or AR and precipitate with SMB. Repeat washes and melt.

3) Silver and Base metals are also in the duty. Mix all brown sludge and treat as described above. Gray sludge should remain separated.

4) The porous structure will hold some of the values. Washing with hot water will extract most of it. Later when the ceramic is spent grind and process.

5) No system is 100% efficient. :wink: 

Great job. Keep us posted on the remaining work to be done.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 31, 2008)

> 2) Incinerate to red heat, wash with hot muriatic, then hot water, then hot ammonium hydroxide, then water. Finish up by redissolving in HCl-Cl or AR and precipitate with SMB. Repeat washes and melt.
> 
> 3) Silver and Base metals are also in the duty. Mix all brown sludge and treat as described above. Gray sludge should remain separated.



Uhm... I dont have Clorox and Ammonium Hydroxide... But...

I can take all duty and powder i obtained and mix togheter, then wash with hot HCL and then wash with HOT water to remove all base metals.
Once washed i can filter and melt all new powder obtained to make a new "one piece" to make another electrolisis.

Will this work ?


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## calgoldrecyclers (Mar 31, 2008)

Now, if i understand correctly, you were attempting to refine your 18 and 22 K into 24K? why did you have your slab in a bath? why not refine in heat or acid? were you attempting to recover base metals out of the 18 and 22 k? thats a mighty expensive experiment you've got going there.
you should never melt a pm into a cm. always use inert materials.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 31, 2008)

> Now, if i understand correctly, you were attempting to refine your 18 and 22 K into 24K?



Yes, this is process i'm working on. Really not for only 18 and 22 but all kind of karats (solid gold).



> why did you have your slab in a bath? why not refine in heat or acid?



Because i prefer electrolisis. U can use this process indoor too.



> were you attempting to recover base metals out of the 18 and 22 k?



If all will work fin e next time, i will expeect other metals than gold will be in solution after smb dropping.



> thats a mighty expensive experiment you've got going there.



Why do you say that ? Except furnace and power supply i got, i spent about 100$ for items and reagents (reagents for many batches).



> you should never melt a pm into a cm. always use inert materials.



Sorry cant understand "PM" and "CM" acronyms. Maybe u was trying to tell me i dont need to melt all my results of this first bad process after washing to try to repeat it ?

Ty.


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## Irons (Mar 31, 2008)

You can't use stainless steel tongs to hold your Gold Anode. The steel will go into solution and also precipitate the Gold.

Get a bit of Pt/Rh thermocouple wire.

Your ceramic cup is too porous. The pores have to bee .5 microns or less. The purple stain shows that the Gold is bleeding through.


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## Noxx (Mar 31, 2008)

Irons said:


> Get a bit of Pt/Rh thermocouple wire.



Yes if you have a lot of money lol. Graphite rods are a much cheaper alternative and works pretty well.


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## calgoldrecyclers (Mar 31, 2008)

Ty,
i was thinking you were experimenting with the electrolitic method, ( which could be costly as the end result of losing pm ( precious metal) and cm, or commonly bm ( cm- common metals, bm- base metals). i honestly cant say i have ever heard of anyone refining pms with electrolitic methods. dont get me wrong, i just didnt understand the method. if it works for you, great. sorry i couldnt help more.


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## ALPHABiT (Mar 31, 2008)

> Graphite rods are a much cheaper alternative and works pretty well.



Can i put graphite rods in solution during power up ?

will not it make duty my solution ?

Because i discovered a professional graphite company who can make me all graphite form items i like. (just to ask some graphite climbs or something like a graphite net-basket tu put into...)


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