# Time for Another Contest?



## metatp (Dec 19, 2013)

It has been a while since I've seen a contest. Maybe a Christmas contest. If anyone can this of a guessing contest, I have 6 worn Barber quarters from the early 1900s that weigh about 33.7g that I can give as a prize. I would like it to be silver related if possible. Let me know if anyone has an idea. I would like it to end on Dec 31st at midnight. I will send a picture of the coins when I find my camera tomorrow.

I will open this contest to all members no matter what country they live in. I will cover postage from US.

Tom


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## Palladium (Dec 20, 2013)

How about this for a suggestion. Who can present the best learning example in the category of silver. winner to be held by public vote to be posted on this thread. basically who can give the best class in the silver category.


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## metatp (Dec 20, 2013)

Palladium said:


> How about this for a suggestion. Who can present the best learning example in the category of silver. winner to be held by public vote to be posted on this thread. basically who can give the best class in the silver category.


That sounds very interesting. The only issue I see is that it limits the pool of contestants. I think that winner would deserve a better prize than six silver quarter. I wish I could afford a 10 ozt bar of fine silver for that kind of contest. If we have enough people willing to participate in your suggestion, we can go with it for the small prize I have to offer.

I am very limited in my creativity. I can only think of two contests. One is the price of precious metals on a given day, and two guessing a weight based on a photograph. I have a small vial of gold power, but nothing for silver. 

Any taker in Palladium's suggestion?

Thanks,
Tom


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## niteliteone (Dec 21, 2013)

I will donate a 2013 Silver Eagle to the prize pool to encourage more to participate.
I enjoy reading about ideas others have and use to refine their silver.


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## Palladium (Dec 21, 2013)

I would make it a 30 day contest.
I plan on doing a video on something I've never tried before myself and should be a learning experience for all. I'm going to do a sodium formate reduction using 4Metals method.


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## nh6886 (Dec 21, 2013)

Tom,

I think Palladium's idea sounds great and I would like to add an ounce bar that I poured to the pot as well. If that works for you shoot me a PM with your ship to address and I'll send it to you or I can ship it to the winner what ever works best. Everything I have learned of value has come from here so really this silver would just be going home.

All the. Best,
John


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## metatp (Dec 21, 2013)

Ok. It appears we have a contest.

Palladium, can you help me with the details of the contest? I'll let you determine the rules, start and stop times, and I will make sure the winner gets their prizes. So for we have the 6 Barber Quarters, a 2013 silver eagle and an approximate 1 ozt poured bar. We can ship separately, or ship to the other prizes to me and I will ship them out to the winner. If anyone else wants to contribute to the prize, they can make the prize that much more to strive for.

Thanks,
Tom


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## Palladium (Dec 21, 2013)

I would just make it simple. Whomever can come up with the best whatever in the silver category. It can be refining, jewelry making, recovery, processes, craft, art, information, or whatever, just as long as it's educational and informational in it's substance. Start date: Today. End date: call it Jan 31. Open to anyone. Winner decided by public vote to be held from Feb:1-4 (72 hours) after the contest close on Jan 31 by the creation of a voting thread.


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## niteliteone (Dec 21, 2013)

I like the sound of this.
Just let me know where to send my contribution.

Has anyone thought of a participation award :?: 
Something to help encourage participants who actually submit a complete process to this contest.
I will offer 1/2 ounce of raw refined silver crystals from my silver cell to each person who posts their work for this contest.

Just a thought on how to get the family playing nice together. :lol:


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## metatp (Dec 24, 2013)

Let the contest begin!! Can't wait to see every entry.


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## sharkhook (Jan 3, 2014)

Anyone entered yet? I am looking forward to seeing the methods employed for this.


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## metatp (Jan 6, 2014)

Nothing yet.


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## samuel-a (Jan 12, 2014)

sharkhook said:


> Anyone entered yet? I am looking forward to seeing the methods employed for this.



Soon... :roll:


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## Palladium (Jan 13, 2014)

I've been busy for the last week and i have to leave town to consult with a client for the next 7 days, but i have ordered everything i need and i am waiting on the ph probe i need for this experiment. It should all be here by the time i return so i can film and do this by the end of the month. Just never enough time it seems. Anybody else going to enter this contest or can i count on winning by default? lol


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## sharkhook (Jan 13, 2014)

I will go ahead and throw all my silver knowledge at it now. Sterling goes in nitric to dissolve. Electrolysis, if that is the correct term, in some form, can be done in a non-magnetic stainless bowl. Ummm, think that is about all I understand so far. If I missed anything, I will try to find out more about it before I attempt it. :mrgreen: 

Yes, I need to understand a lot more before I try it!


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## samuel-a (Jan 14, 2014)

Palladium said:


> Just never enough time it seems.



Right there with you brother...
My AgCl tutorial is in editing for so long.... i shot the raw videos on Nov. 2012...  

But you gave me motivation now :mrgreen:


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## moose7802 (Jan 14, 2014)

Can't wait to see it guys! If I had more knowledge on the subject I would do a tutorial but I'm still learning. I'm actually trying to get my first silver cell set up just gotta feel comfortable enough with what I have read to do it and have enough silver to make it worth while. So until then I will continue to read, learn and watch what you guys come up with. Can't wait!

Tyler


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## bmgold2 (Jan 14, 2014)

I, like many on the forum, don't have enough knowledge to even consider entering this contest but maybe you could extend the deadline say another month to give more people a chance to throw something together or at least not rush the 2 or 3 people who plan to enter it already. 

Just a thought. I look forward to whatever is posted but wonder if a little more time might get a more complete tutorial. Silver, being cheaper, is very interesting to me but the need for more pure nitric has so far kept me from trying much with it. Maybe someone (?Butcher?) could throw together a tutorial on distilling nitric for silver refining use preferably without expensive glassware. Dreaming?

bmgold2


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## Palladium (Jan 14, 2014)

I have a new video dvd series i shot for my silver cell that i'm updating to. The original video series is fixing to be outdated so i though about making it public. If anyone would be interested in viewing them let me know and i might post them for a limited time. I don't want them showing up on ebay!


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## bmgold2 (Jan 14, 2014)

Palladium said:


> I have a new video dvd series i shot for my silver cell that i'm updating to. The original video series is fixing to be outdated so i though about making it public. *If anyone would be interested in viewing them* let me know and i might post them for a limited time. I don't want them showing up on ebay!



ANYONE? Probably Everyone would love to see them. I just hope us Linux users with Firefox browsers will be able to view them.

bmgold2


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## Dawg (Jan 14, 2014)

I would very much like to see your video


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## Palladium (Jan 14, 2014)

This was a video series i made kind of in a hurry for some clients because there were in a hurry. I've since came back and updated the series using the first series to improve upon. I've made several corrections as well as additions to the new series. There's 5 videos totaling about 5-6 hours. These videos will be public for 48 hours.

You all ain't better laugh at me! :lol: 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmGtBkxhZi8[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Jan 14, 2014)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh1wA-MkLDg[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Jan 14, 2014)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlSbE-6aAng[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Jan 14, 2014)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eYE2hL6H3g[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Jan 14, 2014)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si5KkygQxGI[/youtube]


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## rewalston (Jan 14, 2014)

The videos look fantastic Ralph, umm what accent?. The only problem is that I can't watch them, not due to quality, but my connection causes the videos to stutter too much. Is there any other way to get the videos? I'd love to add them to my collection, for reference if I can ever get silver and nitric to work with . Keep up the good work.

Rusty


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## Smack (Jan 15, 2014)

Very nice work on the videos, lots of hours making those.


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## bmgold2 (Jan 15, 2014)

Smack said:


> Very nice work on the videos, lots of hours making those.



I agree. Good job of showing and explaining the processes involved. Lots of hours watching them too. I still have one left to watch. Just couldn't stay up any longer last night. Thanks for sharing this information even if it's a limited time offer. Even if I never build the silver cell or refine silver, it was worth the hours of watching the videos just to SEE what is involved in the process.

bmgold2


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## samuel-a (Jan 15, 2014)

Nicely done Ralph!.

I do not have the time to watch the whole series, but from the little i have seen. It is very good and in depth. Your clients must be happy.


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## Golddigger Greg (Jan 15, 2014)

Excellent series! Due to an unexpected day off I did have time to watch them all. Thank you for the numerous tips and hints found throughout your posts, and the forum, that you incorporated into your demonstrations, it really does make a difference to SEE them in action!


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## Palladium (Jan 15, 2014)

I shot the video series on a 24 notice of a "I need it now " phone call. The video is meant to explain things for clients or people whom have a somewhat basic understanding without the need for every little detail. The new one makes the assumption that you are a total novice as a student and teaches basic principals and fundamentals. I shot the first one without a script or any planning from a-z. Though some may see it as a informative their are many more things i have added and clarified in the new series to make it more educational with factoids and the real science behind what you are doing through hands on processes. The new series will be for my consulting clients and i think i will just give this old video series away on the open market for free. My motivation is not to make money off of this from a product stand point, but from an exposure stand point. So if you want a copy feel free to go to youtube and download it. :mrgreen:


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## modtheworld44 (Jan 15, 2014)

Palladium

Great series!I watched every minute(no skipping). It was very thorough and very interesting.I made my stainless silver cell two days ago and its doing really good.I made my silver nitrate from mylar silver and my cell is a 4quart stainless collinear with graphite anode.Thanks for allowing us the privilege to view your work from the inside.Good Luck on the contest. :mrgreen: 

P.S ATUBE CATCHER away :mrgreen: 

modtheworld44


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## sharkhook (Jan 15, 2014)

Very nice series. I really enjoyed it from a newbie standpoint. Looking forward to your new work.


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## Palladium (Jan 15, 2014)

The video's are gone for the moment. Please bear with me while i do some file moving around.


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## Palladium (Jan 15, 2014)

The video's will be live on this thread http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17233&p=202931#p202931 as they become available.


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## Palladium (Jan 17, 2014)

Ok i just got home and it looks like all my supplies are here for the experiment and video. I'll probably start on this this weekend.


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## Palladium (Jan 18, 2014)

And just for the sake of figuring cost numbers here is what i pay for it in bulk.

Sodium Formate 55.12# bag 
101050-202001 x 10 bags quote .80/#

Formic Acid 533# - drum
100381-113001 x 1 drum quote $1.00/#

Caustic Beads 50# - bag
100322 – 113001 x 10 bags quote .56/#


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## Palladium (Jan 21, 2014)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSzjH9cSDpw&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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## truandjust (Jan 28, 2014)

My submission:

http://imgur.com/a/QF8Md

I posted this on another forum as more of an entertainment piece. I didn't want to put anyone in harms way so I avoided anything that could mistake it for a tutorial. Some still seemed to have a VERY hard time understanding why I wouldn't just spell out the process for them.

I used the nitric/karo method. If been reading diligently here for a few months now, creating my process sheets. A perfect process would have yielded 279 g, and I ended up with 268 grams. I plan to take it to a friend soon to hit it with his xrf. 

Thank you all for the information here!

Tru


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## etack (Jan 28, 2014)

What is the "I used the nitric/karo method." It looks like just an AgCl conversion.

Eric


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## moose7802 (Jan 29, 2014)

Can't wait to see the rest of your video Ralph. 

Tyler


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## metatp (Jan 31, 2014)

It appears that we have two entries with just minutes left to enter. I do not know how to set up a voting thread, but if someone could, I would appreciate it. The two entries so far are:

1. From Palladium http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17233&p=202931#p202931
2. From truandjust http://imgur.com/a/QF8Md

Tom


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## bmgold2 (Feb 1, 2014)

metatp said:


> It appears that we have two entries with just minutes left to enter. I do not know how to set up a voting thread, but if someone could, I would appreciate it. The two entries so far are:
> 
> 1. From Palladium http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17233&p=202931#p202931
> 2. From truandjust http://imgur.com/a/QF8Md
> ...



It looks like you might have to start a new topic to include a poll. I think I know who will win. Palladium set the bar pretty high with his videos.


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## Palladium (Feb 4, 2014)

Part #2


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URbp2MByILg&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Feb 7, 2014)

Part #3



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfs3iOQ8xDc&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Feb 7, 2014)

Part #4
Not quiet sure why the video studers. The original doesn't do that.



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG3DTk3ZTPg[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Feb 8, 2014)

Part #5

Studer free!



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xjQynYdIOk&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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## Palladium (Feb 9, 2014)

Part #6



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rviDlzrQ2O8&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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## nh6886 (Feb 11, 2014)

Ralf,

It looks like I get to be the first to say thanks for sharing these. I know you put considerable time and effort into doing this work and I am sure I'm only one of many who appreciate that. Time is the commodity I appreciate most when it's shared, I know what mine is worth to me so thanks for yours.

All the Best,
John


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## Palladium (Feb 13, 2014)

Results are back. .9997 with the contaminates being copper and iron. The copper would be from not washing it enough i believe. Remember how it balled up? I think it had solvent entrapment (copper) from that and the iron came as the very last of the solution was vacuum filtered off. Because of the dilution at the very last the iron dropped out. I seen it when it happened. I should have eliminated that in the ph step. I can see where that step can be adjusted for the feed stock. Going to do it again, but with a citric acid was at the end after i break up the silver cake with a flour sifter so it can wash better. The stuff wants to naturally clump up witch can lead to washing problems.


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## sharkhook (Feb 13, 2014)

I found those video's very informative. Mostly over my head, but you sure made it sound easy. Thanks for the info on your new silver process.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 14, 2014)

I was going to save this until I had time to watch all the videos... but here it goes!

Great videos, maybe a little bit too much talk, but that's better than too little.

When you adjusted the pH down you were surprised of how little it took in the beginning to move the pH but at the end it took a lot of formic acid. That is because the pH scale is logarithmic, a step from pH 5 to pH 4 takes approximately 10 times as much acid as a step from pH 6 to pH 5. It should be an easy calculation to see how much formic acid you need to get to the target pH.

I would like to suggest a moderator could break out the formic acid thread from the contest to give it a proper subject and the exposure it deserves.

Great work, I want to see more like this!

8) 

Göran


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## 4metals (Feb 15, 2014)

Ralph,

Good job, excellent video's. I've been working in Central America since the end of January and couldn't respond easily, the iPhone is really not my preferred method for forum posting. The internet was really poor as well and down there I think WiFi was the name of a bird they served for dinner! So I was stuck with a phone connection and Safari to get my forum fix. 

A few comments, first a continuous mixer, preferably a motorized propeller, would make this process smooth. I like the process to start with the silver nitrate solution at a pH of 1.5 and at a temperature of 130 F. The formate will also reduce platinum and palladium if in solution so the pH and temperature aid in the selectivity for silver. The iron in your feed material caused the solution to need filtration, without iron you could likely get away with filtration after digestion and be done with it. Adding an excess of silver to the starting silver nitrate effectively eliminates all of the free nitric from the solution and it is easy to just fish out the undissolved silver when filtering and add it to the next batch. 

If doing this on a large scale it is usually easier to titrate the solution with a Volhard titration to know how much solution you will need to reduce the silver, then you are sure to have enough formate solution on hand before you start so you do not have to stop the reaction and restart it. Rule of thumb is for every 100 ounces of silver it will require about 1 gallon of formate. That seemed to be the rate you ended up using as well. 

Again good job.


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## Palladium (Feb 16, 2014)

I love watching it snow silver!  I've seen gold all the sudden drop from solution, but silver is another wonder. So much difference between a cementation process and the chemical precipitation of silver. I'm just amazed at how clean the silver is the way it wants to cling together almost like Velcro sticks together interlocking. The first time it was like fine sand, real fine! I just did another batch and it came out fluffy like. I've notice the difference in drops about like how gold can precipitate out with different characteristics. On my way to 4-9's. :mrgreen:


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## butcher (Feb 16, 2014)

Palladium thank you for sharing your experiments, so we can get more of an education on the process. I would be curios to try it on a more pure clear silver nitrate solution without copper or other metals involved, to get an idea how it works with pure silver nitrate solution.


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## Palladium (Feb 26, 2014)

Wow!! I must say i'm still amazed by the things i see in refining. I'm still playing around with this process to learn more about it. I've watched the difference in ph shifts. I've noticed the differences in temp changes and the effects it has. The correlations between the chemical precipitation of gold and the chemical precipitation of silver run hand in had for some attributes. Today i wanted to see the process in a concentrated silver nitrate solution of about 99% purity, a double refine and drop like we do gold. When i poured the sodium formate into the solution it immediately doubled in size and looked just like silver chloride and like a cauliflower head but snow white and like cottage cheese. My first reaction was what the **, but 3 seconds later it collapsed and turned silver grey instantaneously. I'm waiting on it to settle now, but the crystals look like ground Pepper. I've seen it white. I've seen it like black ink that was a pain in the butt to filter and now this. It's not so much the purity, but the nucleation process that gives it it's characteristics. I'm having fun with this. :mrgreen:


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