# Needed Help with Hoke Torch



## Alentia (Dec 22, 2011)

I have picked up Hoke torch of e-bay. On the torch it says (imprinted) "Natural".

Does it mean "Natural Gas" only?
Can I use Propane with it?

I have a problem natural gas access is very expensive $50 a month just a delivery charge without usage and was thinking of using tank. I looked up on google and there seems to be no places offering natural gas in tanks.


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## butcher (Dec 22, 2011)

orfices are larger for natural gas than propane, I do not know but maybe you can just buy a new tip for the torch (if they make them)with the propane orfice.


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## rusty (Dec 22, 2011)

Alentia said:


> I have picked up Hoke torch of e-bay. On the torch it says (imprinted) "Natural".
> 
> Does it mean "Natural Gas" only?
> Can I use Propane with it?
> ...



Should be alright for propane, to be safe take your torch into Air Liquid or Praxair and have the service technician check it out for you, they probably won't even charge you for the service. They like to have repeat customers.

I use a Harris that is designed to burn Propane or Natural Gas using the same tip and mixer.


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## steyr223 (Dec 22, 2011)

Don't know about the tourch
but as a plumber for 30+ years
Specializing In commercial water heaters
I can tell you the problem. Or danger always
came when going from natural gas to propane
And it wasnt due to the orfice(and yes they are
Different) 
it came from pressure. Natural gas 1-8lb propane 40 + lb
Steyr223 

OK that's confusing above I speak of having a natural gas
Waterheater and hooking up propane to it
The increase in pressure usually flames out and up burning
the front of the heater on fire


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## element47 (Dec 22, 2011)

Do yourself a favor and move directly towards getting the correct propane tip and do not think you are going to somehow make a natural gas tip work for propane. We may casually think of propane and natural gas (methane) as being "kind of the same" but they are really not the same, and in lots of ways. The propane burns faster and the teeny holes in the torch need to be different to get the flame to sustain itself properly. This is under the general topic of "orifice" and you don't especially need to know about it, but sooner or later you will get the right tip because without the right setup your torch will work very poorly, if at all. The tank the propane is delivered in will output propane at roughly its vapor pressure, about 100-125 psi, and you will need to drop that down to single digit psi, so for that you will need a regulator. Without a regulator (please do not even try this) your ability to adjust the flame before it blows out will require microscopic precision, with your heavy gloves on, if you can do it at all. These things (tip & reg) are not very expensive. There is no way whatsoever you will be happy with how your torch performs without the correct tip and fuel. No way. Don't even think about it. Get the right gear.


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## kelly (Dec 22, 2011)

Both the tip and reg need to be for propane. You may be able to get a conversion kit. Gas pressure at a propane appliance needs to be 10-14" of water column (less than 1/2 pound psi), where as for Natural gas, the pressure is around 3.5"wc. Just changing the tip and you'll still be running too low a pressure and won't get the BTU's. Just changing the reg will result in high pressure through too large an opening resulting in incomplete combustion.
K


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## Harold_V (Dec 23, 2011)

steyr223 said:


> Natural gas 1-8lb propane 40 + lb
> Steyr223



Blink! Blink!

Say what? 

When I built the castle, Mountain States Fuel stopped by to ask if I intended to have natural gas delivered. My answer, of course, was yes, that I would need it for two of the furnaces (the other two were electric heat pumps), but I needed higher pressure delivery than what was offered for a residence, which would be used for my melting furnace. I knew that I'd have to add pressure reducers at each furnace if I got what I hoped to get, which I did. What I learned was that natural gas delivery to the common household was only four ounces. That's a far cry from the one to eight pounds you spoke of. I ended up getting one pound delivery, and, as I said, I had to reduce pressure at both of the furnaces, as well as for the water heater. 

Are you certain about the pressure you spoke of? If so, was it related to industry? Certainly nothing like that was available in Utah. 

I can't address the required pressure for propane. Don't have a clue. 

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 23, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> steyr223 said:
> 
> 
> > Natural gas 1-8lb propane 40 + lb
> ...




You are correct Harold in that the pressure entering your residence will be about 4 oz or around 1/2 a lb of pressure for natural gas. Propane will run about 10" wc as stated by kelly on your manomoter. Your gas supplier will generaly run 5 lbs up to your residence and then reduce the pressure thru a regulator before the gas meter. In commercial projects you can run from 5-15 lbs depending on pressure requirements by demand load, arcitecture specification's and supplier availabilty pressures.


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## glondor (Dec 23, 2011)

Harold....2 furnaces and 2 heat pumps!!! Tell us more about the "castle"


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## steyr223 (Dec 24, 2011)

I'm sorry I didn't know we had other
Plumbers here
I should have said 1-8 Wc about 1/8th of a pound
My mistake
And the 40 lbs of propane may only relate to a waterheater
Set up for propane
Although I did a job on a bt400 were it wouldn't stay lit
When I unscrewed the Allen on top of the regulator
to check pressure with manometer the screw
Shot through the top of the shed cutting my finger
As it passed. I traced the line back to find a saddle valve
(A hole in the main before The meter that the connecting
Pipe saddles to make a tee)

My manometer read 110 if I remembe

Realize the maintenance man did this on the fly
I was awed


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## Harold_V (Dec 24, 2011)

glondor said:


> Harold....2 furnaces and 2 heat pumps!!! Tell us more about the "castle"


Not much of a story, at least not now. Susan and I designed and built the place, but it was never finished. We ran out of money (none was borrowed) so we stood idle while I continued to refine. When I had enough money to finish the structure, we had no interest in remaining in Utah, so it was sold after three long years of trying. There were many issues involved, including zoning, which didn't allow for heavy commercial use. The county agreed to its use as a bed and breakfast, so it was purchased by a young couple and converted to such use. 

The lab I enjoyed occupied the top two thirds of the left hand side of the structure you'll see in the link, below. The turret on the left side (the round one) was my furnace room. It was 14' in diameter, and had a one horse motor on the roof, driving a large fan to provide fresh air. There was a large hood above the furnace, connected to the blower.

The building consisted of about 8,000 square feet, but that included the basement, which was intended to be fully finished. House was only two bedrooms, but had five bathrooms and five fireplaces. Heat pumps heated the right hand side, with the gas furnaces heating the left hand side. The lab was totally isolated from the balance of the building, to avoid corrosion problems. A fun and worthy project that we were all too happy to leave behind. It allowed me to operate the refining business without issues. 

Harold


http://www.castleutah.com/


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## Harold_V (Dec 24, 2011)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> You are correct Harold in that the pressure entering your residence will be about 4 oz or around 1/2 a lb of pressure for natural gas.



Thanks for verifying my comments, Barren, in spite of my having used less than acceptable descriptions. My lack of experience in that field is showing! 

Harold


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## glondor (Dec 24, 2011)

Harold, the castle is magnificent! Thanks for sharing it with us. Here is an updated page. http://www.castlecreekinn.net/ The rooms are quite something. It must have made a fantastic place to work. 

I would find it hard to leave a home like that one behind.


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## steyr223 (Dec 24, 2011)

Awesome. Castle Harold
was that a yellow brick road?
5 bathrooms. Uh? Girls? Teenagers maybe?
Lots of relative's?

That home if here in California would have
fetched maybe 8 digits

Very nice
streyr223


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## Harold_V (Dec 25, 2011)

steyr223 said:


> Awesome. Castle Harold
> was that a yellow brick road?



Chuckle!
Well, not exactly, but, at the time, it allowed me to run the refining business without issues. We were, for the most part, completely isolated. In just a few short years, we went from a place out in the country to what was, for all practical purposes, living in the middle of town. Across the street was a large pasture with horses. Behind us stood one house on seven acres. The seven acres quickly become home to 300 units (condominiums), and the horse pasture is now a strip mall. 



> 5 bathrooms. Uh? Girls? Teenagers maybe?
> Lots of relative's?


None of the above. The castle was expected to be a huge playpen for us. Running out of money, then watching the rapid changes made it painfully obvious that we were in the wrong place. Even the road, in front, didn't exist when we purchased the property, although it had been proposed way back in '57, in the master plan of the county. It was simply a re-route of Creek Road, which used to end at the bottom of a hill, on a curve. It was moved for safety reasons. 



> That home if here in California would have
> fetched maybe 8 digits


I have no doubt, but this is in Utah, and, then, on land that was not zoned for commercial use. To further our problems of selling, the county refused to allow a zone change. That, of course, ended right after we sold the place. It sat on .62 acres of land, and sold, with the structure for $385,500. The bare piece of land just to the west and north of the castle, which was on the corner of Creek Road and 13th East, sold for $700,000. It was zoned commercial, and was one acre in size. Location, location, location. 



> Very nice


Thank you. We look back on the entire project with pleasure, and have no regrets, including selling. To have gone from living in the country to having a Wal*Mart a couple hundred yards from one's door sort of changes how you perceive what was a wonderful location at one time. By the way, Little Cottonwood Creek was part of the border of the back yard. It is the creek that originates from the canyon where Alta is found---a well respected ski resort. The castle is located between Big and Little Cottonwood Canyons, both of which are well known for skiing. 

No, I didn't ski. I hate snow and winter. 

Harold


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## steyr223 (Dec 27, 2011)

That's ashamed to destroy an area like that
With Something like a walmart they still have
Issues Here in orange county california with
Building walmarts in nice neighborhoods

I grew up in Fullerton CA. 2/3 acres house. 4800 SF
5 acre lot across street was a horse ranch
bridal trails. Everywhere . purchased 86,000 sold 
for 1. 3,000,000. just before the crash
and the surrounding areas turned out just like yours
condominium.

Thanks steyr223


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## Alentia (Jan 14, 2012)

I have finally tested 2 Hokes torches today with Propane:


1. Hoke for Nat. Gas with Propane nozzle, using Acetylene Regulator on BBQ Propane 20lb tank and Oxygen Tank 20/230
2. Hoke for Propane with Propane nozzle, using Acetylene Regulator on BBQ Propane 20lb tank and Oxygen Tank 20/230

at about 5-6 PSI on Propane, torches behave almost identical. Got 10 gram of silver melted and casted within 3 minutes including heating the dish. Big improvement from "poors man torch" when the same process with 2-3 grams of silver and heating the dish takes upto 10 min.

What is the optimum pressure for Propane to use with Hoke torch?


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## Harold_V (Jan 14, 2012)

Alentia said:


> What is the optimum pressure for Propane to use with Hoke torch?


Play with it and make a determination. When pressure is too high, you can't maintain combustion at the tip, and the torch should be quite noisy. There's probably no fixed answer to your question because the size of the torch tip will make a difference. 

Harold


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