# Peroxide & HCL color



## rainmaker

I mixed a batch of Peroxide-HCL acid according to instructions given by Lazersteve elsewhere on this forum. I placed 36 PP chips in the jar. After 2 days the acid is a medium green color and there is no indication of the pins and plates detaching from the ceramic. How do I know if my acid is working or strong enough? I do not have a pH meter, can I tell by the color? The batch had been sitting in a unheated area, temps have been mid 50 to low 40 most of the time. I moved the batch into a heated area this evening.

Thanks

Gary


----------



## lazersteve

Try adding some more peroxide. You should get heating, bubbles, and the gold should begin to free up. Another trick I use on very stubborn (thick) plating is to brush the plated surfaces with an old clean toothbrush, because the gold doesn't always pull away as the base metals are dissolved unless the solution is agitated (swirl the dish). I've never had a problem with the legs hollowing out and floating around freely in the solution.

Steve


----------



## Fever

If the chips were not broken open to expose the layers prior to processing in HCL-H202, and all exposed metal components and pins are gold plated, then maybe your solution cannot get underneath the gold to dissolve the base metals? The fact that your solution is turning green seems to indicate that some copper is indeed dissolving. The pins may just be hollowed out already and are retaining their shape due to not being agitated. Just a guess though.....

Fever


----------



## lazersteve

I had excellent results and have never broken up the chips. I save the ceramic shells for crushing later when I get a ball mill operating. I'm saving the loose cores also for a piece of artwork I'm planning on making.

Steve


----------



## rainmaker

Thanks to all of you who responded to my inquary. What about transferring it to the Crockpot.? Will that speed things a bit or is the temp. not a factor?

Gary


----------



## lazersteve

Yes a little heat always helps. Don't leave it unattend for extended periods of time for safety reasons.


----------



## rainmaker

Thanks  I've used the Crockpot for fingers and it works really well, but had never used it for chips.

Rainmaker


----------



## catfish

Steve, what is the fromula that you use for H2O2 and HCL. Also what percentage of contrentration of H2O2 do you use. I have 3% and I found I can get 50% in one gallon size from A & B Prospecting Supplies for about $35.00 + $30.00 Hazmet handling. This seem expensive.

I tried 1H2O2 +2HCL ( H2O2 is 3%) this seems to work but fairly slow.

Thanks,

Catfish


----------



## lazersteve

The ratio I start with is 2 HCl:1 Peroixde.

I use the 3% peroxide. The higher concentration stuff will work faster. I've found that if I keep the color a clear to dark emerald green it tends to react quicker.

Here's how my stock vessel looks right now:







Here's the strainer I made to keep the scrap (fingers usually) separated from the gold foil/flake:






I typically agitate the bath twice a day by pulling the strainer out, waiting a moment or two, then slowly letting it back down into the bath. This causes the gold foils to go into the solution thru the bottom of the strainer and separates them from the finger boards. 

Heat helps of course. If I want to hurry it along I'll add a little peroxide every so often to keep the solution warm (it heats and bubbles when you add more peroxide). Once the copper chloride concentration gets right (see the copper chloride document on my website) the solution works really good with an occassional kick start of peroxide. If the solution darkens or percipitates copper chloride ( greenish white crystals ) then add some more muratic to dissolve the percipitates. The solution will slowly dissolve gold if you get it too reactive (excessive peroxide). I'm not in any real hurry, so I typically set up a three gallon bucket (lowes) and let the scrap soak for a few days. I agitate it occasionally to keep the gold foil that has loosened from blocking the remaining copper plate. You can reuse the stuff forever if you keep it filtered and primed with HCl and Peroixde occassionally.

Here's the dirty foil before the rinses:






Notice the copper chloride (grayish white) powder in the mash.

Here's the 'gold mash' produced after washing and rinsing:






And finally here's the foils from the batch:







I hope this helps... any questions  .

Steve


----------



## toadiesop

Great info here!

Since I just moved and I don't have a garage anymore I can't really play with the "BFRC" methods. So while I'm in my apartment complex I'm limited to my cell and this new method which looks fun, easy, and safe.

I'd love any information that isn't in this thread already. 

This looks perfect for what I can do now. This way I can just save all my foil until I can get "back to the woods" so to speak.

Steve, how much did you process in that that batch, and what can you guestimate that yield was?

EDITED to get rid of useless info and questions I had that got answered.

I have everything now I need to do about .75 - 1 gallon at a time. I'm using 9 quart garbage cans as my "buckets". Got a use bin to put everything in.

Now I just need to know about "safe to use indoors with minimal ventilation". It's too cold to leave outside at night right now and expect anything to work. 

Can someone just tell me what fumes are expelled with this and what precautions to take? I know "safe indoors" but is that an open basement or can I just put this (one gallon acid, one pound fingers and cpus at a time) and put it in the corner of the living room next to a sliding glass door cracked an inch or so?)

During the day, it can go outside, but like I said, too cold at night now.

I'm aware of the process, but like I said in another thread, I wont do anything until I know everything.


----------



## toadiesop

gotta reword that...


----------



## lazersteve

toadie said:


> Steve, how much did you process in that that batch, and what can you guestimate that yield was?



If I remember the batch correctly, I processed 3.5 pounds of fingers and the yield was right at 11 grams. I sold the button on ebay last year.



toadie said:


> what fumes are expelled with this and what precautions to take? I know "safe indoors" but is that an open basement or can I just put this (one gallon acid, one pound fingers and cpus at a time) and put it in the corner of the living room next to a sliding glass door cracked an inch or so?)



The majority of the fumes are produced mainly when the ingredients are mixed. I typically set a five pound batch of fingers up in my garage and tend it twice a day. The garage stays closed most of the time. After an extended time the garage gets a faint odor in it, so I open the doors and ventilate the area. The agitation stage tends to splatter drops of the mix on nearby objects so I put up scrap sheetrock barriers to block the droplets. I wouldn't set it up in the living room or bedroom due to the slow corrosion of nearby metals the mix causes. This mainly occurs on exposed aluminum and copper objects. This action may damage sensitive machinery or electronic devices.

Steve


----------



## toadiesop

Thanks Steve! I've got the "droplets" taken care of I think. I brainstormed for a while today got all the stuff I need for under $20 and I'm ready to go. 

I was just making sure there wasn't any HARMFUL fumes released. I didn't think there was but I was just making sure before I did anything. I can deal with a little "stink".

I'd still like to know what is released though. In laymans chemical terms of course  (hydrogen, chlorine gas??) I know enough to wiki what gases I'm dealing with if I'm not familiar with them.


But I think I have a good setup for $20..... I figured that it would splash a little so I knew I needed it in a "tote" large enough to hold my buckets and rinse water. Realize that all the things in this picture obviously don't have to be in here at all times... So here's what I got today (minus the pins and cpus of course 8) )

Two 2.25 gallon garbage cans. (I already did the holes and I know I need one more for the rinse but that'll be a few days from now)

Some measuring cups, muriatic, peroxide, some slotted spoons, ect.






Notice the fan next to the door. That will push the stink outside. As I've said, during the day I can just move it outside to the balcony, but being just a mile from the shore of Lake Superior it's still a little chilly at night and I don't know how that will affect it. It'll slow it down anyways.

So here's what it's gonna look like at night. I'm gonna prop the fan up a foot or so the get it as high as the tote.






More to come. I'm still piecing it all together. Thanks again Steve.

EDIT***********

Here's my "test batch". A lot of 486-Pentium era cpus and fingers (around 5 pentium pros in that pile)...... all pulled, cut, and broken by my own hands and I didn't pay a cent for any of it.. 8) 






That's what makes it special.


----------



## toadiesop

How much acid and/or peroxide do you need to put in to "recharge it"

And how do you when to do it? and which one to use?


----------



## Daniel

I have a bunch of CPU's that I have broken up but I haven't done anything with them thinking I would wait until I could break them down into smaller pieces. Is there a need for this? Maybe I could run them as they are in HCL+peroxide and then gring the tailings up and AR them later to see what comes out. Has anyone done this?

Also, I have a batch of fingers soaking in HCL that has been soaking for a number of days and I have just started to see some gold "floating" in the HCL. I didn't use peroxide as I didn't want to risk disolving gold into the solution. Will the HCL by itself ever fully liberate the gold foils?

I have noticed plenty of vapors during this process with just the HCL alone. I would definately NOT do this in the living space or in an area where air would be circulated to the living areas via heat/cooling systems.


----------



## toadiesop

Nobody has told me what the vapors are yet though. Anyone? 

And we don't have any ducts that the vapors can travel through. It's all going straight outside.

But I'd still really like to know exactly what the vaoprs.

Sorry I can't help you with your question Daniel, but I'm pretty sure you need the Peroxide. It you didn't it wouldn't be part of the recipe.

You can't leave out the flour in a bread recipe.


----------



## goldsilverpro

HCl is actually hydrogen chloride (HCl) gas dissolved in water. The vapors are pure HCl. They will rust any iron or steel they come in contact with. They will also corrode many other metals, such as aluminum. They are poisonous in a confined area. The apartment in the photos is very nice, but it would look terrible after just a little exposure to HCl fumes. The door frame on the sliding glass door, for example, would soon be corroded. The fumes will also irritate your neighbors and will rust cars. If the weather is such that an inverse temperature gradient exists, the fumes will hang near the ground and corrode and rust everything in sight.

Don't run this or any other acid systems in that apartment or in close proximity to any neighbors. Don't even think about it.


----------



## toadiesop

Thanks goldsilverpro, but how does Steve use it in his garage with the door closed and not ruin everything in it?

Edit****

And how about in a crockpot with a lid (glass)? I read here that it keeps the vapors in and they "drop back into the stew" I believe were the exact words.

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused how this is "safe to to indoors" when the vapors will corrode everything in sight. 

And remember, I'm not talking about 5 pounds at a time. Just one pound. 

Steve, can you clarify?


----------



## toadiesop

On page 1 duh!



> I wouldn't set it up in the living room or bedroom due to the slow corrosion of nearby metals the mix causes.



I'm so confused. I give up with this method.

Looks like I'm stuck with my cell until I get back to the woods.


----------



## goldsilverpro

I don't understand your confusion. To me, it's just common sense. Of course, I've seen a lot of buildings that have been virtually destroyed by HCl fumes.

Although the design of the lid allows for the condensation of the fumes, I would doubt if you get 100% sealing. Also, the lid is removed for filling the pot, removing the solution, and, when checking for complete dissolution.


----------



## toadiesop

No I get it GSP and I believe you, I just thought "safe to do indoors" meant "safe to do indoors"

I read all the time that this was the safest way to recover pins, fingers and cpus. Apparently it's not.

No big deal. Now I'll just wait until I can get out of town.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## lazersteve

Toadie,

The method is safe to use indoors in a non-populated room. The fumes are not produced after the initial reaction except when evaporation occurs. The active ingredient in this formula is Copper Chloride, not peroxide or hydrochloric acid. The two ingredients initiate the production of copper chloride which in turn performs the dissolution of the base metals. You should read the document on my web site about copper chloride. Copper chloride is not volatile at room temperature and is safe if you wear golves and don't drink it. You can not dispose of copper chloride down the drain!!!

I would recommend that you mix up a small batch of the mix and get familiar with the process before bailing out. Take a 4 cup pyrex measuring cup and add an ounce of the fingers into the measuring cup. Add in 1 cup of peroxide and 2 cups of HCl. Let it sit in your bathroom near a window or somewhere else out of the way of pets, children, and traffic. Twice to three times a day swirl the mix and watch the gold foils begin to peel away from the finger boards. In four or five days all the foils should be loose enough to be washed off with a spray bottle of tap water. 

You will be able to observe the reaction first hand on a small scale and then make your determination from there.

Steve


----------



## toadiesop

Excellent!! Thanks Steve!! I knew there had to be something else. 

I'll definitely try the small batch you describe and go from there. 

thanks again!


----------



## lazersteve

Be sure to read the referenced document. The guy did a superb job on detailing it.

Steve


----------



## toadiesop

I will read that doc Steve. 

Well.... I'll read it again.... I did a while ago but I didn't "absorb" it since I was building my first cell at the time.

You can bet I'll pay a little more attention this time. 8)


----------



## goldsilverpro

I must admit that, before studying the pdf yesterday, I though that this was a O2/HCl proposition. I now realize it's an O2/HCL/CuCl/CuCl2 proposition. You still need free HCl and O2 for the system - to convert the CuCl to CuCl2. Otherwise, when the CuCl concentration reaches only 20 gm/liter, the reaction will nearly stop. According to a link on the pdf, to dissolve a pound of copper, it takes 1.87 gallons of 3% H2O2 and .32 gallons of HCl. In the quantities you're using, the HCl starts at about 8 Molar. According to the pdf, the fumes are still pretty strong until this is reduced to about 4 Molar, whereas 2.5 to 3.0 Molar is said to be best. But, according to the pdf, this takes from 3 to 10 days to stabilize. What happens in the meantime? Also, in the pdf, it is stated that, at 1 Molar, there are still fumes, even though they are far less.



> The method is safe to use indoors in a non-populated room


Safe for both humans and metals or, for humans only? Who says that it is even safe for humans? The guy that wrote this otherwise excellent pdf seems to be as much of an amateur as most people on this forum. Is he a doctor?

Here's the way I would solve this. Place about 10 short pieces of pH paper in various spots in the room. Some near the solution and some farther away. Tape a couple of pieces to the window frame. After awhile, examine them. If they show red-orange or red, you have problems. Any concentration of HCl in the air will eventually corrode metal and no one can convince me that it's healthy to breathe this crap.

Toadiesop, I'm just trying to save you some repair money when you move out and, maybe protect your health. This is not an Alpha Dog thing. I really truly believe what I'm saying.


----------



## aflacglobal

You heard what the man said.

:shock: :shock: :shock: 

Besides, that dore bar won't fit.


----------



## Harold_V

goldsilverpro said:


> snip-
> Toadiesop, I'm just trying to save you some repair money when you move out and, maybe protect your health.



Damned straight. I ran my fume hood virtually non-stop 24/7, and still had corrosion in my lab, anywhere that I had exposed iron (steel). Even my anodized aluminum window frame was looking pretty sad when I sold the castle. 

I don't care the source, or the level of dilution, there's fumes-----it's a matter of getting used to them, but I'm not convinced that when you do that they become any less corrosive. This stuff is damned hard on the respiratory system----just as is smoking. If you breath it long enough, there's bound to be a price attached. 



> This is not an Alpha Dog thing. I really truly believe what I'm saying.



The alpha dog statement was made by an individual with the mentality of a pigmy, and was uncalled for. I recall it all too well, and I have no use for that individual. Each of us have contributed to this forum on a level that would have taken years for others to, otherwise, achieve through experimentation and researching matters that have long ago been solved and well documented. I had no need to be an "alpha dog" then, nor do I now. There are some things that are absolute-----regardless of the source. 

Like you, I firmly believe the things I post, all based on personal experiences and research, such as it was. You and I have had our differences, but that in no way diminishes my respect for your years of experience. I have considered that our objectives may have been somewhat different, particularly when I realize that your situation was a job------one from which you could move on. Mine represented me----totally. I was the refining business, and my decisions are what made or broke the operation. If it failed, I had no business to tend. 

It stands to reason that each of us will have a passionate belief in that which we believe-----so when these things do not turn out identical, we're bound to have a heavy exchange of opinions. It's nothing to do with being an Alpha dog, and everything to do with a strong conviction in our knowledge base. 

Having said that, I'm sure that you and I see things, in general, fairly evenly, but each of us is suffering with a case of having been away from refining for considerable time. I know I can still do the work, but I now have to think, whereas, before, it was routine. I can't help but think it's the same for you-----

I agree with your assessment in this case. There is no safe level for breathing fumes----just as there is no safe cigarette. Using these chemical compounds will, eventually, do damage to all types of electronic (and other) equipment------it's just a matter of degree. 

Harold


----------



## toadiesop

Thanks Harold. I agree with you statement that the info that is in this forum it saved us nOObs YEARS AND YEARS of trial and error and definitely helps everyone be safer?

What do you think about my "fume box" idea? 

On a side note, I went to my girlfriends uncles house for the first time yesterday. It's only about 20 mins away and he has a HUGE back yard in the middle of the woods. We talked gold recovery and he's really interested. So now I have a partner and some space!! Whoo Hooo!

I'm going "back to the woods" today so I'll be able to do my fingers and cpus in AP. I'm going to try to make a video tutorial from start to finish. 

One question I have is about rain. If it's outside, it should be fine if it's loosely covered right? As long as no rain can enter the bucket?

Thanks.


----------



## Harold_V

toadiesop said:


> What do you think about my "fume box" idea?



I don't think much of it, but only because you're pressurizing the container instead of pulling a vacuum on it. You'd be far better served to put a small fan on the discharge, after any filter you intend to use. There are many advantages in keeping a negative pressure on the box. 

Harold


----------



## aflacglobal

Dam harold. you just answered my question i just posted for GSP.


Thanks.

Ralph


----------



## toadiesop

Here's what I got from my first acid bath..... so far.

I say so far because the bath stopped working a few days into it and I never got around to getting more HCl and peroxide before I had to leave again. So it sits 1/2 way done in the garage for another week or so until I can get back to it.

All the fingers were disolved but there was still a bunch of pins on a lot of the CPUs.

And I heated with hot water around the pails so I know I'll have to use SMB as well.

There's some "junk" in here but I'm not worried about that since it's going to be filtered anyways. 

So without further ado. (one step closer to my first .999 nugget!! wooo!)



[img::]http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1251/gold005mt3.jpg[/img]


----------



## lazersteve

Toadie,

Great start!

Have you rinsed the foils well with several washes of HCl? Be sure to let the foils soak in the HCl to be sure the copper is all gone if there are larger pieces of copper in the foils. Follow this up with several good water rinses.

How do you plan on dissolving the gold foils?

Steve


----------



## toadiesop

Thanks Steve!

Yeah, that's only 2 washes of HCl and then i ran out. It wasn't reacting too much by the end of the second rinse so I think it's pretty clean but I plan on rinsing it a few more times.

I'm going to use HCl-Clorox for bringing it into solution.

I can't wait to get back to where my buckets are so i can find out what's left on the cpus and what dissolved.

Should I use Urea first or can I just drop it out (SMB) without neutralizing it?


----------



## lazersteve

No Urea is needed. Urea is used to neutralize nitric acid in AR. Just add SMB dissolved in water. Let it sit overnight and don't expect much gold to be in the AP solution if any. You can test the solution with stannous chloride, but it's sometimes hard to tell if there is gold present. If you plan on reusing the AP don't bother getting the gold out at all. I drop the gold from the AP when I'm ready to mix up a fresh batch. 

Let us know when you are ready to go to the HCl-Cl.


Steve


----------



## toadiesop

Can do. Thanks Steve.

Is there any way you can guesstimate how many grams I would have there. Minus a few for the little bit of debris. I REALLY need to get another scale! :lol: 

The girlfriend asked me last night about how much is there but I don't have a clue. Maybe you could eyeball it. I think I need to take a better picture too! 8)


----------



## lazersteve

Toadie said:


> Is there any way you can guesstimate how many grams I would have there.



Toadie you know you are asking for the impossible here but, being the adventurous spirit that I am, I'll take a stab at it for you.

Judging from the size, color, and amount of debris in the pile I'd say more than one gram and less than three. I might be able to do better if you told me how far along the items were when you filtered out this portion.

Don't hold me to any level of accuracy here, it's merely a guess.
:lol: 
Steve


----------



## toadiesop

:lol: yeah, I know it's impossible but that's about what I guesstimated myself. 

There was no amount of "precision" in this batch. I've been collecting random "material" for months. If I had to guess, I would say 30% of the batch was ISA fingers and 486 era processors, another 40% was P1 era ceramics and pci fingers/slot cpus, the other 30% is hard to even "put an name on" so to speak. 

That last 30% ranged from 1950's-2000's tech that I got for free and ripped apart (smashing ICs to find gold hybrids, whatever pins I could pull off, ect).

So I don't even know what went into this batch. :lol:

So just one question I have and I can figure it out myself, but since were trying to spread the info.... When the cpu pins come off the ceramic "whole" could they still be copper filled? Or does the fact that they fell off mean the bath got to it all?

I have a lot of full "cpu pins" in my sample but the second HCl wash reacted minimally. 

But I digress, I'll get to Lowe's tomorrow hopefully and get some more HCl. I finally got my camera working again (obviously) so I'll be sure to keep updating.


----------



## Palladium

Replay !!!
Start on page one of this thread.


----------



## Oz

Dang! I boot-up the computer to read the forum a bit with lunch and see Palladium everywhere! Good to see you back Ralf, you have pulled up some good old threads that haven’t been seen for a while.


----------



## Palladium

Thanks OZ. I noticed a bunch of new people and thought these threads were a must read for them.:wink:


----------



## Oz

The forum has probably doubled since I last saw you here with many finding their way from your YouTube video. 

I’ve even heard rumors of a chili cook off for the group on Rhodia Drive this Thanksgiving :lol: Go figure.


----------



## Palladium




----------



## Claudie

I was gonna do that.... :| "replay"

This thread mentions broken processors in the same mix as fingers. Is HCL/Peroxide still a good way to process ceramic processors with the lids removed?


----------



## rmi2416

Claudie said:


> I was gonna do that.... :| "replay"
> 
> This thread mentions broken processors in the same mix as fingers. Is HCL/Peroxide still a good way to process ceramic processors with the lids removed?




I also have the same question is this a valid way? What is the most common used process if it is not?

Best Regards
Ross


----------



## Claudie

rmi2416 said:


> Claudie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was gonna do that.... :| "replay"
> 
> This thread mentions broken processors in the same mix as fingers. Is HCL/Peroxide still a good way to process ceramic processors with the lids removed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have the same question is this a valid way? What is the most common used process if it is not?
> 
> Best Regards
> Ross
Click to expand...



No, it's not.
There is currently a thread here: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=8813&p=99425&hilit=ceramic#p99425
check it out. :|


----------



## rmi2416

Claudie said:


> rmi2416 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Claudie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was gonna do that.... :| "replay"
> 
> This thread mentions broken processors in the same mix as fingers. Is HCL/Peroxide still a good way to process ceramic processors with the lids removed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have the same question is this a valid way? What is the most common used process if it is not?
> 
> Best Regards
> Ross
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not.
> There is currently a thread here: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=8813&p=99425&hilit=ceramic#p99425
> check it out. :|
Click to expand...




hey thanks so If I am correct on what I am seeing in your link that is just the basic AR method. With a little added heating to also pull the Palladium out correct?


----------



## golddigger2

Hi 
This is for catfish about where to get peroxide. I had similar problems sourcing peroxide until I remembered hairdressers use it all the time. You will be able to purchase 100vol peroxide from any hairdressing wholesaler. 100vol is 30 % or 300mls/liter. I hope this helps


----------

