# IC powders



## madelyn (Jul 22, 2015)

I have about 10kg mixed ic that I'm busy incinerating with my homemade induction heater and was wondering if there is another way to get the gold from the crushed powders exept AR? 
The carbon powder is difficult to leach with AR becuase it needs to be stirred or agitated while heating the ar and then there would be filtering the huge pile of powders.
I have excess to a lot of boards but don't know how to get past this one.
I'm also not a panning expert so I think I will loose a lot of value when panning.


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## nickvc (Jul 22, 2015)

If you still have carbon in the mix it will absorb some of the gold so you need to go past the heat that gives the carbon and burn it off.


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## madelyn (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm just waiting for my Carbon cruicible to arrive as the mild steel has a lot of heat loss and does not conduct the heat very well.
But that is of very little concern at the moment as the ic can still be milled to a fine grain without burning it completely.
My biggest problem is getting the gold from the powders, becuase I have over 200kg of boards with ic and stil counting which I will need to process.


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## justinhcase (Jul 22, 2015)

I have come up against a similar problem with Ceramic I.C.'s and high yield board's.
But think the simplest way to get a workable concentrate is gravitational separation.
A pan is great for testing samples as it give's you a good hand's on feel of the material.
For a practical solution I am looking a designee's of shaker table's.
yet an other project I need to finish.


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## madelyn (Jul 22, 2015)

I was also thinking of a shakers table as a good option since I would be processing a lot of meterial. The other option I had in mind was melting the powders with soda ash in my induction heater,but I'm not sure about it. Maybe some of the experienced guys in melting can help me out or if someone also using a induction heater? I think the melting would be very efficient.


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## justinhcase (Jul 22, 2015)

Smelting is always a good option.
but it would work better after you clean your material up a bit first,this will give your flux less work to do..
Why dirty your crucible with matter that should float off easily.
Forgive me for asking as I have never had access to an induction furnace. But is not one of the advantages of an induction furnace that it automatically mixes your molten metal as a side effect of the magnetic field's? 
Might that not interfere with it being used to smelt your material?
even in a conventional gas furnace it take's quite a prolonged period for the target alloy's to fall out of the flux and gather enough to allow poring.


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## Palladium (Jul 22, 2015)

Sorry to jump your thread, but my question is about the induction heater. Did you make that yourself? Got some more pics?
I love ingenuity!


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## madelyn (Jul 23, 2015)

justinhcase said:


> Smelting is always a good option.
> but it would work better after you clean your material up a bit first,this will give your flux less work to do..
> Why dirty your crucible with matter that should float off easily.
> Forgive me for asking as I have never had access to an induction furnace. But is not one of the advantages of an induction furnace that it automatically mixes your molten metal as a side effect of the magnetic field's?
> Might that not interfere with it being used to smelt your material?


Yes, I will clean the meterial first with magnets and fine mash to get rid of all the large pins and base metal pieces.
If I use a carbon cruicible the eddy current are only strong on the cruicible itself and won't stirr or affect the metal inside the cruicible. 
When melting with a ceramic cruicible, your metal inside the cruicible becomes your magnet and thus it will have a great affect on your metal mix.
Hopefully when I get my cruicible and test it out I can add more pics and bring some light to other members on the forum unless this has already been discussed.

Palladium, I did built this machine myself and its not finished yet after 3 years and a lot of money.Its like gold refining ,super interesting and always something new to learn.
Wil post more pics later of the whole system.


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## Anonymous (Jul 23, 2015)

The induction heater looks amazing! Would love to learn more about it.

On a different note how are you venting that?


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## madelyn (Jul 23, 2015)

spaceships said:


> On a different note how are you venting that?


Very little smoke is emitted becuase everything gets trapped in the asbestos on the top of the cruicible, but still using a fan to extract the tiny amount of smoke for now.


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## justinhcase (Jul 23, 2015)

Can you scan your wiring diagram Please?


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## madelyn (Jul 23, 2015)

http://inductionheatertutorial.com

Follow this link. My work is based on this but just ten times bigger on everything. I Don't have a schematic of my precise work .


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## francis32 (Jul 24, 2015)

madelyn said:


> http://inductionheatertutorial.com
> 
> Follow this link. My work is based on this but just ten times bigger on everything. I Don't have a schematic of my precise work .


Madelyn,

this is very neat! My work is at a oil free, twin turbine magnetic bearing HVAC compressor manufacturer, we have a shaft spinning at 40k RPM in mid-air! 

We use PWM(pulse with modulation) technology to keep the shaft levitated in the center of its calibration and a 250hp motor spinning it. 

we use many types of different industrial induction heaters during manufacture!

I don't use a fancy device like you have to roast my IC's, rather a steel container with a hair blower from the side and scrap pallets(free) for fuel! I use that same setup to melt my aluminum also. IC's need to reach a temperature higher than 650c to incinerate the carbon and aluminum melts at 660.3. 

Thanks for sharing! 

Francis


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## madelyn (Jul 24, 2015)

francis32 said:


> madelyn said:
> 
> 
> > http://inductionheatertutorial.com
> ...


Wow! this sounds great and I would love to see it.
I still need to do a lot of up grades. I stil need to add my arduino board to keep a tight lock on the resonance and put everything on a circuit board instead of a breadboard. But in Namibia it is almost impossible because nothing is at my disposal.
Hopefully I wil start turning profit on my ics soon to take everything to the next level


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## Research135 (Jul 25, 2015)

Induction furnaces are very interesting, and addictive. I believe you don't need one for your work.

To process your stuff:
1-I'd grind the source material to about 200 mesh using 2 mills, first a bar mill, then a ball mill.
2-a-Bag it and sell it.
Or
2-b-1-Incinerate it in a steel drum with a porous glass fiber cover. (Maybe you need an afterburner too, if you care about the fumes).
2-b-2-Smelt the residue with lead added as a collector, litharge, borax, and soda ash, well mixed.
2-b-3-Assay and sell the lead ingots.


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## madelyn (Jul 25, 2015)

Research 135
I think I will have to do option 2 as it is to expensive for me to ship anywhere.
Can I also use silver as a collector when smelting, and secondly do I even need a collector? Do the metals not move down to
The bottom on there own of my cruicble when smelting?


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## Research135 (Jul 25, 2015)

madelyn said:


> Research 135
> I think I will have to do option 2 as it is to expensive for me to ship anywhere.
> Can I also use silver as a collector when smelting, and secondly do I even need a collector? Do the metals not move down to
> The bottom on there own of my cruicble when smelting?


I also like to add silver or silver oxide when smelting. 
Lead is nearly always used in smelting mining concentrates. The reason is that litharge is a potent oxidizer at those temperatures, and will oxidize nearly all the base metals present, becoming lead and collecting all precious metals in a virtual lead rain of micro droplets. 
Those base metal oxides will dissolve in the borax/flux slag, that will cleanly separate from the lead/silver/Gold/PGMs ingot (or button), after cooling.


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## madelyn (Aug 7, 2015)

So I got my graphite cruicible and successfully melted the PM out of my powder with a silver collector. I used 11gram of silver and at the end of the melt I had a 31gram bar containing PM. Refined it and got gold and platinum out of the bar which I stil need to melt. There is still some gray precipitate left that does not want to dissolve in the AR?
I had 225gram of ic powder and added 100gram borax and 225gram soda ash which maid the melt nice and thin. It was almost not necessarily to use a collector.

My question is, since I'm using a graphite cruicible. Doesn't the graphite attack the platinum and palladium?
What about the borax and palladium, wouldn't it dissolve the pd completely ?


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## Research135 (Aug 7, 2015)

Try putting the powdered metals inside a small *magnesia* cupel, put the cupel inside the graphite crucible. Let's see if your furnace can do it.

edit: Do not use fluxes when melting platinum or its sisters.
edit2: try glazing the inner surface of the magnesia cupel with an oxyacetylene torch, before attempting to melt the powders with your induction furnace. I don't think you can melt platinum with your coil setup.


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## Research135 (Aug 8, 2015)

I was thinking a little more about this, and I believe you need a bigger diameter coil, and much more insulation between the coil and the heater element (the graphite crucible in your case). You must also insulate the top and bottom. At the required temperature (white hot near 1,900-2,000 degC) your crucible will likely start burning too, so you want to make air very inaccessible or put I all inside a container that will retain the carbon dioxide emitted, and prevent the air from reaching the crucible anymore. You could also paint the crucible, inside and out, with refractory cement.

What heat you put in with the coil, must be insulated, to allow the crucible and cupel and powders to reach melting temperatures. In your current setup, I believe you have a lot of heat leaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdDX48OUjGI


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## madelyn (Aug 9, 2015)

I have a jacket over the crucible and can easily reach white hot temps. It's just that my variac is rated for 12 amps and I'm running it on 25 to 30 amps 600 volts , so it gets to hot when melting about an hour.
I have to switch my igbts so that I can draw less current and more volts, maybe up to a 1000 volt at 20 amps would be good and keep the whole circuit nicely cool.


Can someone please advise on the borax and palladium?


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## Research135 (Aug 9, 2015)

I'll re-phrase:
Your heat insulation of the graphite crucible is inadequate.
Keep going like this and you will eventually admit it, after a minor or major setback.
What is the temperature rating of your insulation jacket?


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## madelyn (Aug 9, 2015)

I don't know the temp rating on the jacket ,but I have a white ceramic refractory cement that is rated for 3000 Celsius which I will be using for for my larger graphite cruicible. I'm still trying to figure out how I will mold the jacket becuase it can't be to thick as I wil loose conduction when the coil is to far from the graphite. 
Option 2 is to place the coil inside the jacket so that the coil can be very close to the graphite.


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## Research135 (Aug 9, 2015)

madelyn said:


> Option 2 is to place the coil inside the jacket so that the coil can be very close to the graphite.


No, no, no, no, no!.

Try to build the following (from the inside out):

1-Powders or metals to be melted. 1800-2000 C. Compact them into a pellet, if possible.
2-Impervious small crucible. Sintered Zirconia or Sintered Magnesia. 1900-2100 C.
3-Graphite jacket or small crucible covered in refractory. 2100-2200 C.
4-Insulating jacket.
5-More insulation.
6-Even More insulation. Total 4,5,6 minimum 50 mm.
7-Refrigerated Induction coil.

Aim for something like this, but smaller:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdDX48OUjGI


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## Research135 (Aug 9, 2015)

madelyn said:


> Can someone please advise on the borax and palladium?


 I did already. 
Here it is again: *NO FLUXES ARE USED *to melt platinum or palladium. Or any of the other four PGMs.


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## madelyn (Aug 9, 2015)

Research135 said:


> madelyn said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone please advise on the borax and palladium?
> ...



Its for when I'm melting the mixed ic powder or slag to recover the PM?


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## Research135 (Aug 9, 2015)

Madelyn: I give up. Good luck with your experiments.


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## madelyn (Aug 9, 2015)

2-b-1-Incinerate it in a steel drum with a porous glass fiber cover. (Maybe you need an afterburner too, if you care about the fumes).
2-b-2-Smelt the residue with lead added as a collector, litharge, borax, and soda ash, well mixed.
2-b-3-Assay and sell the lead ingots.[/quote]

How else wil I get the slag nice and thin for the metals to flow?
I wil not be using any salts for melting my refined PGMS.


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## Research135 (Aug 9, 2015)

Research135 said:


> ..., borax, and soda ash, well mixed.



Good luck Madelyn. 

Did you make that induction furnace yourself or is it someone else's work?. 

How did you get an oscilloscope in Namibia?. Show me the welding equipment you used to build the capacitor bank, and the refrigerated coils. 

I don't believe anything from you!. My problem for sure...

This thread *might* help you:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=22581

*edit, over and out:* Lead alloy flows liquidly, nicely, beautifully... with all precious metals in it. The slag with the borax comes off with one hammer blow, after cooling.


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## madelyn (Aug 9, 2015)

My goodness! 
I wil try and explain in more detail what I mean about the borax and palladium it seems that you have difficulty understanding this.

If I crush my ics I have to mix it with borax and soda ash to get a liquid melt, so what happens if there is palladium in the ic mix since I'm not allowed to melt PGMS with fluxes?
I hope that someone can give some clarification to this?
And would you really ask me something that stupid! to confirm I builded my own induction heater?


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## Research135 (Aug 10, 2015)

madelyn said:


> to confirm I *builded*


 That will suffice, yes.


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 10, 2015)

Let's keep things positive folks. 

Dave


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## Anonymous (Aug 12, 2015)

Research - I'm a little puzzled and you may be able to help me out but could you let me know why you think someone couldn't get hold of an oscilloscope in Namibia?


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## justinhcase (Aug 12, 2015)

madelyn said:


> My goodness!
> I wil try and explain in more detail what I mean about the borax and palladium it seems that you have difficulty understanding this.
> 
> If I crush my ics I have to mix it with borax and soda ash to get a liquid melt, so what happens if there is palladium in the ic mix since I'm not allowed to melt PGMS with fluxes?
> I hope that someone can give some clarification to this?


I regularly use flux with silver containing P.G.M.'s ,as long as they are in a weak alloy I do not see it doing any harm and is necessary to flux off some of the impurity's.
If you where trying to melt pure P.G.M.'s it is advised to very lightly season your crucible with some borax and to avoid carbon crucibles completely.
I am unsure if seasoning is advised for zirconia crucibles but I think I read that it was not.
I have only melt small button's Pure P.G.M.'s by torch as of yet as from what I have seen you need to have the hole melting and casting unit in a controlled atmosphere chamber to get good result's.
That would be your next job to situate your coil in a vacuum chamber and have it so it could tilt an pour.


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## Geo (Aug 17, 2015)

The most major problem I see with this is the metal is heated internally. This means the gold wires is most likely to melt. Molten gold is a powerful solvent for other metals and will alloy with any metal it comes into contact with. If it is your intention of collecting the wires for further refining, I'm afraid you are making a mistake. If you are planning on processing ALL of the metal in the chips after you do this step, then proceed.


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## johnny309 (Nov 18, 2015)

Melt is good...adding enought Cu....Al and Fe will remain in the "slag" ..as silicates or oxides...then copper cell.... mud is processed further..... 
PRO: all the gold will be recovered(even from magnetic gold platted legs....which is removed when panning)
On the other hand ....much more energy consumed.....much more time involved.....but for bigger quantity ....is the best way...


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## MarcoP (Jan 16, 2016)

I've randomly picked up this existing and related thread where to ask a question. How do we properly dispose of the ash coming from incinerated plastics and or integrated circuits? I mean, after we are sure that none, or a trace amount, of PMs are present in the ash, can we just send it to a common council rubbish yard, dispose of it as hazardous or do you put it aside and when enough send it to a refiner?

Marco


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## Smack (Jan 16, 2016)

I put mine in with the circuit boards that are headed to the refiner just in case I did miss a little of the good stuff.


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## Geo (Jan 16, 2016)

From my research on the subject, the plastic IC bodies are infused with cadmium oxide. Cadmium has been used in PVC since it's invention as a stabilizer. Cadmium oxide is used in the plastic bodies to inhibit thermal breakdown of the plastic over time and to restrict oxidation of the plastic. Once the plastic bodies have been incinerated, the cadmium is free and becomes airborne particulates. I recommend that you should deal with incinerated plastics while wet or damp. This will reduce the amount of dry dust in the air. I also recommend that all solids be placed in a sealed container and sent to the landfill. in the USA, landfills must conform to state regulations that restrict pollution from the landfill going into ground water.


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## Anonymous (Jan 18, 2016)

At the risk of getting on my old soapbox. 

Why on earth we advocate incinerating unknown product in the full knowledge that most people are not going to do it safely beggars belief. 

Then we recommend using sulphuric cells to rookies, and sodium Hydroxide when both will result in instant blindness in the wrong hands and an unlucky droplet whilst on the other hand certain leeches are considered taboo.

Balanced safety I get but this is completely skewed. 

Jon


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## Geo (Jan 18, 2016)

People are blind when gold is involved. People will do what they have to get to the finished product. I know they will and you know they will. Do we just say "don't do it under any circumstance"? Even though they labeled their product as causing cancer and lung disease, underweight newborns, advanced aging, tooth decay and a thousand other ailments, you would think people would treat cigarettes like the poison they are but, no. So just insisting that someone not do something for their own good health does not work. The next best thing is to try and educate people so that do what they are going to do anyway is done as safely as possible. That's why stressing safe handling of dangerous substances should come with every recommendation to incinerate.


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## Anonymous (Jan 18, 2016)

I'm with you this Jeff.

I'd like to see the same warnings posted as part of advice especially for the substances I have mentioned as a matter of course. Those are truly terrible substances, far worse than HCl or Nitric and yet the perceived threat level is lower because of how we refer to them. Especially in the case of the sulphuric cell. 

Heat concentrated sulphuric acid to 80 degrees plus to take off a few grammes of gold? No - - not in my lab. And my lab is kitted out well. It's just not worth the risk of horrible disfiguring injury and I would at least know what I am doing. The majority of people who are advised on using such a cell simply don't.

Thanks for the reply mate.

Jon


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## g_axelsson (Jan 18, 2016)

If you hit 80 C in your deplating cell then you are way out of recommended operating temperature.
GSP : "Maximum temperature is about 100-110F (38-43C)"
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=22045&p=229563#p229563

As for cadmium in incinerated electronics it is a danger but it is getting smaller with time. The ROHS directive have kept most Cd from electronic components for the last 10 years. The most common use of Cd in plastics is as a color pigment and that isn't needed in most IC:s.

Here is Sweden cadmium in plastics have been banned since 1982.

For incineration I would be more concerned with flame retardants and to create nasty organic molecules from incomplete burning.

Göran


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## kurtak (Jan 19, 2016)

The real nasty in IC chips is beryllium - BeO is mixed in with the epoxy resin as a filler & the reason it is used as the filler is to reduce thermal expansion due to its thermal conductivity properties 

The three common fillers used for IC chip epoxy molding are alumina, aluminum nitride, or beryllium oxide due to there thermal conductivity properties

The following is copied from the patent of the provided link below

In further implementations of the invention, alternate filler materials with high thermal conductivity may be used in the molding compound instead of alumina. For example, in some implementations, aluminum nitride having a thermal conductivity of around 180 W/m-K may be used. In other implementations, beryllium oxide having a thermal conductivity of around 260 W/m-K may be used. Metallic solids such as silver and non-metallic solids such as diamond, silicon, and silicon carbide may also be used. In some implementations, a combination of two or more of the above described filler materials may be used, such as a combination of two or more of alumina, aluminum nitride, and beryllium oxide. It should be noted that alternate filler materials having high thermal conductivities that are not specifically listed here may be used in accordance with implementations of the invention. For instance, in some implementations, alternate filler materials that may be combined with an epoxy for use in an integrated circuit package that have a thermal conductivity ranging from 10 W/m-K to 3000 W/m-K or more may be used. The key is using a filler material having a relatively high thermal conductivity that is compatible with the epoxy material used in the molding compound. 

Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090004317#ixzz3xfw6ZJgE

Kurt


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## g_axelsson (Jan 19, 2016)

Are you sure about beryllium in plastic IC:s? A patent doesn't mean that beryllium oxide is used in any significant amount in standard circuits.

On the contrary, I only found documents from Dell and Apple that listed Beryllium as something that should be minimized in their products.
I believe that the high toxicity of beryllium oxide would prevent it's usage in all but very special applications. As the material declaration in packages are quite open any widespread usage should be easily found. So far I've not found any proof of BeO used as a filler material.

This is a typical declaration of materials used in a BGA chip.
http://www.cypress.com/file/207976/download
SiO2 filler is 85% of the encasing plastic. There are a undisclosed "Metal oxides" of 0.6% but that's too little to effect the thermal conductivity even if it was all BeO, it's probably a component of the epoxy.

Components containing beryllium oxide is usually marked. I've only run into one component that contained beryllium oxide as far as I know. A transistor in an old radio measurement device.

In this book beryllium oxide is only mentioned as a ceramic material and not as a filler.
https://books.google.se/books?id=c2YxCCaM9RIC&lpg=PA47&dq=beryllium&hl=sv&pg=PA47#v=onepage&q=beryllium&f=false

So unless we deal with high power radio equipment the risk of running into BeO is quite low. But we should be conscious about the risks in all we do.

Göran


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## kurtak (Jan 20, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> Are you sure about beryllium in plastic IC:s?
> 
> Göran



Yes I am sure - some time back (6 -8 months ago) I read it on a chip manufactures web site wherein they made the claim of better thermal conductivity of their chips due to BeO used as filler in the epoxy molded packages - can't for the life of me find that web site again - but it caught my attention "for sure" considering I process ICs in rather large lots of 40 - 60 pounds at a time

Kurt


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## Anonymous (Jan 20, 2016)

As Kurt said above.

Here's a link to a specific patent that utilises BeO for that specific purpose in ICs. http://www.google.com/patents/US20090004317


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## g_axelsson (Jan 21, 2016)

The existence of a patent doesn't mean there are a real application or use of that patent.

For example, here is a patent on unlimited free energy (free as in beer). It's an energy multiplier and gives off more energy than you put into it.
http://www.google.com/patents/EP2583374A1?cl=en

It seems to be really hard to find any example of a chip where a producer is mixing in BeO as a filler in plastic. What that tells me is that you will probably never run into it unless you process really exotic equipment. Electronics designed for usage in vacuum, for example on a satellite, would benefit from a plastic like that as there are no convection in vacuum, all heat has to be conducted away. Even then there should be warnings about it on the components so I don't see the danger as that big.

Finally I managed to hit that sweet search terms that produced the result I was looking for. http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/ielx7/5503870/6678367/06626580.pdf?tp=&arnumber=6626580&isnumber=6678367


> Three filler material candidates have bulk κ > 200 W/mK
> (AlN, BeO, and hBN), but they are either very expensive
> (e.g., tens or hundreds of dollars per kilogram) *or pose a
> health hazard (i.e., BeO)*, or both. The literature is rich with
> ...


 (My emphasis)

It also reveals the price of BeO and it's huge! $800-$1000 per kilo. That's about twice as much as silver. You won't find that in a low price product.

Göran


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## Anonymous (Jan 21, 2016)

Goran I don't follow the logic your post mate.

I agree that a patent doesn't mean that all ICs would have BeO in them, and I also agree that as a material it is expensive. The counterpoint is that you and I have seen on this forum quite a range of people who are in fact processing high grade equipment containing radio equipment for telecoms. Many people also process high grade ICs from high end IT equipment.

So why take the approach that it's not likely to be in the components rather than the approach that should be taken - namely that it's possibly there and to process accordingly? That's the approach taken in many other situations.

I appreciate fully that people would rather turn a blind eye to this because it would mean that they would have to put more thought into their incineration process but whilst we are strong on safety here in many areas we appear to be weak in this one. 

Jon


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## UncleBenBen (Jan 21, 2016)

So assuming BeO can be present in at least "some" chips, how can they be processed safely?

If done in a nice pyrolysis rig like the one NoIdea posted, would BeO survive the heat and still become airborne? Or would it be more of a problem with just open incineration.

This thread has gotten me a bit worried about the 10-15 lbs. of chips I've harvested so far. A good portion of those came from older telecom and med-spec boards. I've seen the BeO warning on quite a few of them, and its definitely not something I want to be breathing.


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## Geo (Jan 21, 2016)

A cheap respirator from Lowes or any paint supply will work for airborne particulates.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_430975-98-8511PA1-2QPBN___?productId=4754370&pl=1&Ntt=respirator




Or if you are very terribly concerned and want an extra few layers

http://www.lowes.com/pd_215253-98-65021HA1-C___?productId=3652073&pl=1&Ntt=respirator


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## g_axelsson (Jan 21, 2016)

Jon, my logic is that we should worry about the dangers that most people will encounter, not one that might affect very few members. And so far all we have shown for a real product is a patent text.

It's like during the anthrax attacks in USA a few people died, causing an irrational fear among office workers. Many people were so afraid they didn't go to work for several days or even weeks. At the time I made an approximation that it probably saved more people from dying in car crashes than died in anthrax attacks, still people were afraid for a very unlikely scenario of dying from anthrax while no one thinks about the dangers of commuting to work.

The real dangers I see is inclusion of mercury, arsenic, bromated fire retardant, phosphate, various organic molecules... the stuff we know could end up among incinerated IC:s and that we are a lot more probable to encounter.

Beryllium oxide is a nasty ceramic and should be avoided as far as possible. It's thermal properties is fantastic though and therefore it is used in a few critical applications as for example power transistors in radio transmitters. People working with this kind of equipment should be aware of the dangers and take precautions. Often the equipment is marked with a warning triangle and Be or beryllia.

But for Joe the scrapman who picks up a computer at the curb, the risk of processing it is not in beryllium but in other things.

This is the one time I've run into beryllia since my days in the army, servicing radio equipment.



UncleBenBen, if you see a beryllium warning I would thread very carefully at that point. The main danger is dust and since it usually is a white or pink ceramic component I would treat every one I encounter at that point as lethal. The one above I left as is and took it to a recycling center in a closed container.

Still, I would not be concerned for any black IC containing beryllium filled plastics. There are a lot of other techniques where good thermal contact can be achieved without using beryllia.

Göran


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## Anonymous (Jan 21, 2016)

Goran

First please bear in mind that I am debating with you, nothing less gentlemanly. You've got three people already on this thread who are all coming across BeO. That's three people before you even ask who else has come into contact with it, we can agree on that I assume?

So your comment that says "we should worry about the dangers that most people will encounter, not one that might affect very few members" is I am afraid patently incorrect. You also have more to go on that just a patent, you have experience of this product being talked about.

The analogy with Anthrax, and drawing a parallel with causing irrational fear is just wrong. So wrong. If you processed the amount of gear that some of the members do Goran, you would be more aware in practical terms of what I amongst others are saying, and speaking member to member here- just because you don't know something doesn't make it irrelevant.

No offence intended old friend but I respectfully have to stand my ground and disagree with you on this one. 

Jon


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## g_axelsson (Jan 21, 2016)

Geo is illustrating my logic quite good.

- Joe the scrapman picks up a few computers and learns that there's gold in them boxes... comes here and reads about incineration and it could give off beryllia dust. Then he sees the post about a dust mask. He picks up a mask, puts it on and feels safe. But that mask won't stop mercury vapors or bromated organic molecules which is a much bigger danger in my opinion. But with the mask on he feels safe and is probably more in danger of inhaling any toxic vapors given off from a bad incineration than he were without the mask.

At least that's my opinion and I'm not going to loose any sleep over possible beryllia dust in black chips until someone is showing an application where it actually is used.

But I will treat any smoke from incineration as dangerous and avoid it because of the known dangers it contain.

Be aware, don't be afraid!

Göran


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## g_axelsson (Jan 21, 2016)

Jon, if I was any closer to you I would buy you a beer in the closest bar. I'm also just debating this and I'm sorry if it looks like I'm angry, I'm not. I'm just trying to express how I'm looking at this topic. 8)

I'm not saying that BeO isn't out there. It is and it should be generally known. What I'm saying is that no one so far have been able to show a black plastic IC with BeO in it as a filler, except as a patent application and that is proving nothing.

I have the utmost respect for beryllia and I'm avoiding it as the plague. Beryllia is one of these chemicals that builds up in the body and can cause severe problems over the rest of your life. And as far as I know there is no treatment for it.
If you see a beryllia warning sign, treat every white or pale ceramic component as toxic waste.

We should teach people about the dangers associated with refining and especially recovering gold from electronic scrap. But we should not scare them about dangers that by all practical means isn't out there. And until I see proof of a real application that uses beryllia filled plastic I'm going to treat that danger as not worthy to worry about. I'm going to put my energy into worrying about the other nasty stuff coming off any incineration.

If we still disagree, then we have to agree on disagreeing and then head down to the bar, the first round is on me! Cheers friend! 8) 

Göran


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jan 21, 2016)

Trying to find out what the exact make up of each chip is will probably never happen. IMHO treat all of them as having the possibility of being dangerous to protect yourself and others. Probably trying to find out the information would be equal to trying to find the formula for Coke or Pepsi products. IMHO it revolves around trade secrets of the manufacturing of the products.


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## Geo (Jan 21, 2016)

Particulates and fumes are two different things. In my experience, anything that fumes is not good for you. Temperature plays a big part of the fuming process. Normally, the higher the temperature, the more fumes are generated. Incineration produces a large amount of fumes. A lot of solids is actually mostly gasses that is in a stable state. Once they are heated, the gasses are liberated and the mass and volume of the solid is reduced. It is a rendering down process that we call refining. Most of the bad stuff has a pungent smell and a sting when it enters the nose and eyes. These are warnings that we should not stand over the fire. Even burning wood fumes off some really nasty compounds. If it wasn't for mans ability to burn wood safely, humans would have died off long ago. Take the iron "pot belly" stove for instance. People use it to burn coal in the center of their home. From http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heavy_metals_and_coal 

Heavy metal refers to any metallic chemical element that has a high density and is toxic or poisonous at low concentrations. Coal contains many heavy metals, as it is created through compressed organic matter containing virtually every element in the periodic table - mainly carbon, but also heavy metals. The heavy metal content of coal varies by coal seam and geographic region. A variety of chemicals (mostly metals) are associated with coal that are either found in the coal directly or in the layers of rock that lie above and between the seams of coal.[1][2]

It has been this way since it was discovered that iron could be fashioned into a way to burn coal in a home so it wouldn't choke people to death. It's not impossible to work with even poisonous materials without being exposed. You just have to know what you are working with and the best way to deal with it when you do. 

Isn't it ironic that someday, someone that has never been exposed to pollution and has always eaten healthy all of their life and exercised everyday will wind up in a bed dying from absolutely nothing.


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## Geo (Jan 21, 2016)

I read the patent on the BeO. It is for ceramic chips described as "flip-chips" and "ball grid arrays" (BGA). It list other fillers such as alumina. This lets me know that they are not describing epoxy IC packages. Two totally different animals altogether. We are suppose to be the "go to" source for information on this type of thing. We don't want to go screaming that the sky is falling and scaring people over a fractional possibility that there might be something harmful in what we are handling. I am 100% on safety but I don't want to be so frightened that I'm scared to leave the house in case a plane falls from the sky.


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## Smack (Jan 21, 2016)

For me it's real easy, anything other than the air we require to survive is poison and I do everything I have to do, to keep it out of my once in a lifetime lungs.


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## kurtak (Jan 22, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> Are you sure about beryllium in plastic IC:s? A patent doesn't mean that beryllium oxide is used in any significant amount in standard circuits.
> 
> Göran



Goran

Like Jon I don't wish to argue - when you asked the above I replied


> Yes I am sure - some time back (6 -8 months ago) I read it on a chip manufactures web site wherein they made the claim of better thermal conductivity of their chips due to BeO used as filler in the epoxy molded packages - can't for the life of me find that web site again - but it caught my attention "for sure" considering I process ICs in rather large lots of 40 - 60 pounds at a time



Here is the thing - I started posting about this both here & on Kens forum shortly after I read about it on the above mentioned chip manufactures web site (not a patent) Because I process chips in larger batches then most here it caught my attention when I read it (which is why I have posted about it ever since)

The chip manufactures web site I am talking about was something I ran across in a totally un-related search because at the time I had no idea about it being in epoxy chips until I saw it on that web site (which is why I can't find that web site again, because I have no idea what I was actually searching at the time) also I looked back on my posting about it & one of the earliest post I could find was here in this post :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=22561#p236534 & it was probably 4 - 6 months before that post that I had read it on the afore mentioned web site - so more like a year ago

If I had not read this on a chip "manufactures" web site I would not even be posting about it as a concern that members should be aware of when processing chips 

Now with that said what I can totally agree with you on is the FACT that there are "many" other "nasties" in processing chips that in the first place requires/demands that safety precautions be taken when incinerating &/or handling the ash - I HIGHLY recommend the use of a "good" respirator - by that I mean a good cartridge respirator with cartridge's that filter fumes as well as dust - I do not recommend a cheap dust mask because not only don't they filter fumes (when incinerating) but they also do not fit tight on our face & dust tends to make it past the edges so they may reduce dust but they don't eliminate it

Finally - though BeO is not the only concern (& maybe not even the major concern) there still exist a likelihood of it & therefore worthy of mention

So now - if only you, I & Jon all lived closer - we could all get together for a few beers & laughs - I know I would enjoy the heck out of that :mrgreen: 

Kurt


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## MarcoP (Jan 22, 2016)

One think you all agree is that ashes cannot be breathed because of various airborne particles of heavy and toxic metals. Work with wet ashes and store or dispose in sealed bags. With proper handling, a mask could only help in case of an accident, never let false security prevail. I've learned this from your replies, with our without BeO. Thank you guys.

Marco


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## archeonist (Jan 5, 2019)

I think it is a good idea to bring attention to this topic again. I have collected a good amount of IC chips and I was planning to incinerate them, but I always want to be sure about the hazards I could encounter. The fact that there most likely is BeO in some of the epoxy chips made me decide not to incinerate at all. For an amateur like me it is just to dangerous. I don't see how I could control the dust and fumes. Maybe I just ball mill the chips unincinerated and wet and see what the result is, maybe i'll throw them away.. I'll for sure will stop refining escrap and carry on with karat and plated items. I hope some amateurs read this and think twice about home refining of ic chips..


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## g_axelsson (Jan 5, 2019)

archeonist said:


> I think it is a good idea to bring attention to this topic again. I have collected a good amount of IC chips and I was planning to incinerate them. I always want to be sure about the hazards I could encounter. The fact that there most likely is BeO in some of the epoxy chips made me decide not to incinerate at all. For an amateur like me it is just to dangerous. I don't see how I could control the dust. Maybe I just ball mill the chips unincinerated and wet and see what the result is, maybe i'll throw them away.. I'll for sure will stop refining escrap and carry on with karat and plated items. I hope some amateurs read this and think twice about home refining of ic chips..


There are no BeO in plastic chips. It would add a highly toxic and expensive component and the only good thing with high heat transfer would be lost by encasing it in plastic.

Göran


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## archeonist (Jan 5, 2019)

Hi Göran,

Yes I read that, but are we 100% sure? Like BGA chips for instance, those can generate a lot of heat. It would make sence that they conduct their heat as fast as possible. But real hard evidence I haven't seen yet I must admit. 

Archeonist


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## g_axelsson (Jan 6, 2019)

Yes we are, high power BGA chips uses a copper plate inside the plastic body to transfer heat.

The most common place you will find BeO is in RF transistors and power amplifiers in base station for cellular networks. White ceramic components with thick copper fins sticking out.

If you embed the BeO in plastic then you have cut off the heat transfer path and could as well have used a piece of copper... and that is what is used.

Göran


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## archeonist (Jan 6, 2019)

g_axelsson said:


> Yes we are, high power BGA chips uses a copper plate inside the plastic body to transfer heat.
> 
> The most common place you will find BeO is in RF transistors and power amplifiers in base station for cellular networks. White ceramic components with thick copper fins sticking out.
> 
> ...



You mean that the BeO particles, when mixed in epoxy, are no longer connnected to each other wich would decrease the conduction of heat dramatically?


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## anachronism (Jan 6, 2019)

The BeO works as a plate with the external surface area giving off the heat to the outside air. If you're going to encase it in resin then that becomes much less efficient. At that point it's a waste of money using it when copper will do. 

Chips that need heat dissipation beyond normal airflow usually have an external heat spreader or heat spreader and fan to take the heat away, and mixing BeO in with the epoxy doesn't seem to be a practical application because as you have mentioned- it's merely particles and not a solid lump.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 6, 2019)

What Jon said. Right on spot!

Copper conducts heat twice as good as BeO, so the only advantage over copper is that BeO is electrically insulating while having a pretty good thermal conductivity. So the BeO is used instead of plastic as an insulator, often bonded to a copper heat spreader.
So if you have a black plastic chip then there is no BeO.

Göran


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## archeonist (Jan 6, 2019)

Göran and anachronism, thank you guys for the clear explanation.! Still I will consider the dust as dangerous like we all should do.


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