# Dickinson 26-H Electric Kiln



## Chumbawamba

I picked up an old electric kiln the other day for what I think is a pretty good price. It's a Dickinson model 26-H. It has a ~15" cubic interior and goes up to something like 2300F. Certainly enough to melt gold. I paid $160.

Here is one that looks like it:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/zip/1475235915.html

Being a craigslist ad, that will go away very soon, but is a link to a free one in San Pedro, California, that needs repair. Good for the firebricks, at the very least.

Upon reading up on the use of kilns through various forum posts I now understand that it would have somewhat limited utility in terms of overall gold recovery or refining, but I think I can put it to use in several creative ways. I imagine it would be good for incineration of small amounts of things like connector ends or mylar with gold plate. Not sure if the resulting gasses would be a huge problem or something I can mitigate with fume hoods or afterburners? Would also be good for melting a decent amount of lead or aluminum, probably in a covered vessel. Probably will work for ore smelting on a limited scale.

I have yet to fire it up but before I do so I need to replace two missing firebricks.

I still plan to build a gas-fired furnace. I imagine electricity costs on something like this kiln would not be trivial if used a lot.


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## 4metals

One use for an assay furnace of that size would be to refine using cupellation, Action Mining has large cupels (large enough to absorb 30 pounds of lead). By cupelling with lead you can produce dore beads which will be all precious metals and the base metals are adsorbed into the cupel with the lead. 

If your alloy has silver in it you will have to add 3 times the weight in silver (inquart) and place the resultant dore bead in 50% nitric acid to dissolve the silver and you will be left with 99.5 fine gold. Melting that gold with selective fluxes will purify it even further. The silver can be easily cemented out of the nitric acid and re-used. 

I would caution against using a kin as a burnout oven as the smoke may foul up the coils, plus there is usually no stack on a kiln, at most a small diameter hole in the top.


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## markqf1

My furnace (vcella kiln) is one of the best investments I've made for assaying and refining.
Keep in mind, lead is not the only collecter you can use.
Some pgm's like tin, copper and even gold.

All of course with the proper ventilation.

Mark


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## 4metals

Bismuth is also used for cupellations, more costly but less toxic than lead.


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## Chumbawamba

Thanks for the feedback, peoples. I now feel more confident about my purchase!


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## butcher

now you need a pot full of gold to pay for the electric bill.


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## 4metals

Not necessarily, I have a vcella kiln model 30, 16" x 16" x 16" it consumes 5.76 kw to run. I pay 10 cents/kw in Pennsylvania so running it for 8 hours costs me $4.60 to run it for 8 hours. (25% cheaper if I do it at night) If refining by cupellation, it is cheaper than buying acids and treating the waste. Plus you can refine and assay with the same unit.


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## goldsilverpro

4metals,

I just bought a #16 Vcella kiln with an auto-controller, for running assays - 16"X16"X11" - 4.8 KW. With the 4"-5" insulation, it takes about 2 hours to get it fully hot but, when it's hot, it stays hot. After several minutes with the door open, it returns to full heat in a few minutes after the door is closed. The only thing I don't like about it is that the door swings open to the side rather than sliding up and down like most assay furnaces I've had in the past. This makes it quite hot to work in front of it when the door is open. 

In the past, with other furnaces, I drilled 1 or 2, 1/2" holes to introduce air for cupellation. Just cracking the door open is too slow and it works mainly for only the cupels in front. I'm thinking of a regular 1/2" bit to first go through the SS skin and then a carbide masonry bit to go (very carefully) through the firebrick. I'm thinking of a 1/2" hole, centered left-to-right in the roof, about 2/3 of the way back. Also, a 1/2" hole in the door, with a rotating disc to cover it when fusing. I can cover the hole on top with a firebrick when needed. I don't think I should chance drilling a hole in the back because of the element.

Do you think 1/2" holes are large enough? How do you introduce air? Any other tips on using this furnace? Do you swing the door all the way back to keep the heat off the left side of your face? Your #30 is only a little larger (about 30% - my chamber is 11" high) than mine. How do you dress to cope with the heat? I hate wearing those aluminized jackets and hoods, but it may be necessary.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Chris


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## 4metals

Vcella kilns are excellent because of their price and ease and cost of rebuild. They are designed for the ceramics guys so I guess that's why the door swing is what it is. I have to wear the tin man suit if I'm doing a lot of cupellations, and the tin man sleeves if it's a short visit.

Getting air into the furnace evenly was an issue because it wasn't easy to provide a good airflow for driving the lead since getting a good airflow on the hinge side provided too much air on the opening side. I drilled a series of 5 half inch holes along the bottom of the door. Then I made up plugs out of refractory cement to fill the holes. The plugs fit easily into the holes and the end has a larger diameter to stop the plug when fully inserted and make removing a plug easier with heat resistant gloves on. As it turns out I only ever need 3 holes open for assays. I open all 5 when scorifying or cupelling with the giant cupels to make dore. 

I always keep a line of dummy cupels just inside the door across the width of the furnace to act as a temperature buffer. 

I just drilled a 1 inch hole in the top center which I cover with a refractory brick for when the furnace heats up. 

I also keep a thin 1/4" layer of bone ash on the base slab for easy spill cleanup.

My first Vcella was the smallest 6" cube furnace, I believe the model 6. It was cheap to run, heated up quickly, and didn't give ma a suntan every time I opened the door. It could hold 9 to 12 cupels easily. The only reason I moved up to the larger furnace is it was given to me by a refiner who switched to gas. 

Good luck with your assaying venture, I hope this info is helpful.


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## lazersteve

Chris,

I'm no furnace expert, but I've been using mine for several years now and have crossed some of the same bridges you are talking about.

My furnace has a Paragon 9" x 9" x 8" interior. The door swings open to the left and has a 1/2" peep hole with cover in it. The roof has a 1/2" hole dead center in it. 

It takes about an hour to get up to heat and requires aluminumized gloves and leather body protection to work around when the door is open. I started out using regular welding gloves and got my thumb tip badly burned right through the glove on my first run. That's when I switched to aluminumized gloves.

I use 36" crucible tongs to keep my distance from the opening when the oven is hot.

I've had a few crucibles give way (usually when iron is in the mix) and had to repair the floor of the oven twice now. A few months back I started using a thin flat piece of graphite on the floor of the oven to help protect it. 

The small holes don't really provide the necessary air with my oven, so I have to open the door. 

Steve


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## goldsilverpro

4metals,

Thanks.

I like the 5 holes in the door. I think I'll drill 4, 1/2" holes in the top. When I open all 4, that's equal in area to a 1" hole and I won't have to buy 2 high dollar 1" bits. Also, it might be better to spread them out. 

I can't believe I didn't think of the sleeves. I'm pretty sure I can get away with them. What do your wear on your face?

I don't think it would be too hard to modify that door. I'm thinking of two channels, with the door riding in them. The channel would have to first come towards you, to clear the door, and then up. A counter weight on a pulley could work the door, like on some furnaces. The Johnson door had one short piece of small channel iron and one short piece of 1/2" steel rod welded to each side of the door. These rode in the u shaped channel.

Steve,

You might cast a floor plate out of refractory cement. Also, 4metals mentioned covering the plate with bone ash. I put it on thick. Also, when you get a spill, cover it with a bunch of bone ash. It will absorb the flux and, when hot, it can be scrapped off. If you move fast, the floor plate isn't damaged much. I did buy an extra floor plate, though. They're pretty cheap at Legend-Reno.

One time I was doing assays in a Johnson gas furnace with an open muffle plate - no enclosed muffle. The first time I ran it, the blast blew lead out of the cupels on the sides whenever the fire kicked on. The plate was riddled with little pools of lead. When it cooled, I picked the small beads off. However, the large beads had sunk pretty deep. After that, whenever I ran the furnace, there were about 5 little bright shiny pools of molten lead.

For others, here are the furnaces I've discussed.
http://www.lmine.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=vcella_assay_furnace
http://www.lmine.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=26250&Category_Code=johnson_assay_furnace&Product_Count=0

Chris


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## 4metals

Chris, 
I haven't used face protection, other than my normal safety glasses, with my furnace except for while doing crucible fusions on low grade refinery residues. The mid fusion additions require a full suit of armor as well as a face shield.

I've been experimenting with assaying using the technique seen in this video

http://www.midstatesrecycling.com/movies/assaymed.wmv

It's from the web site of Mid States Recycling in Chicago, I've never seen the technique before and when I saw it I had to try it out. Got good results on karat material, close numbers. Ever used this technique before?


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## markqf1

Just to interject a thought, ... the holes on the top will draw no air but will allow the holes on the bottom to draw more air.
True, it takes thirty or forty minutes to get it up and going but, then it's worth it as the furnace will maintain heat so well.
It's perfect for routine use doing different tasks throughout the day, if I desire.
Also, I can run 5-6 assays at a time.

When I'm in my testing mode, I always try try to run three identical tests, and then divide for a more accurate result.

Mark


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## goldsilverpro

4metals said:


> It's from the web site of Mid States Recycling in Chicago, I've never seen the technique before and when I saw it I had to try it out. Got good results on karat material, close numbers. Ever used this technique before?


I watched it several times and the only unusual thing I saw was the use of a dish for fusion instead of an assay crucible, except I saw no litharge. Is that what you mean? What do you think he was doing? Maybe I'm blind.


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## 4metals

He's doing karat assays' (clean scrap) he scorifies every cup before he cupels. The scorification is to get rid of the base metals and the cupellation gets rid of the lead. Seems redundant to me but they claim better accuracy. I don't see how.


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## goldsilverpro

> He's doing karat assays' (clean scrap) he scorifies every cup before he cupels. The scorification is to get rid of the base metals and the cupellation gets rid of the lead. Seems redundant to me but they claim better accuracy. I don't see how.



I thought of scorification but things just didn't look right to me. They looked like scorifying dishes, but the ones I always used were pink. I notice the A.P. Green ones are white, though. What is the black coarse looking stuff in the dishes (test lead?) and what is the white salt he is adding? That doesn't make sense to me unless the white stuff is the sample? He added the white stuff with a spoon, so I doubt if that's the sample. Where is the karat gold sample? 

I noticed that there were both lead buttons and lead foil cubes in the cupels. I assume the buttons are for gold + silver and the foil is for gold only (with added silver). Interesting the way he numbers the cupels. Looks like a magic marker.

I don't understand the claimed better accuracy either. The assayer probably is an old ore assayer that loves scorification. 

I assume that you talked to them and found out exactly what they are doing. The video was short and not that clear.

BTW, I just noticed that the Bugbee and Shepard & Dietrich assay books sell at Legend-Reno for $20 each. Both are excellent for ores and bullion. Not much good for electronic scrap unless you read between the lines.
http://www.lmine.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=assaying


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## 4metals

What he is doing, which isn't specific in the video, is weighing a karat sample into a scorifier, adding the silver, adding test lead, adding borax, and scorifying. After pouring into a cone mold the lead cone is de-slagged and in the process made into cubes. (pounding to square them often helps remove the thin slag on the sides) 

Now the video shows him weighing the lead, I don't know why, if you notice the balance is around 5 grams, that seems light for the sample, silver and remaining lead, perhaps the filming sequence is out of order. (after all the purpose is to sell their services, often to people who don't know what they're looking at anyway)

Finally the parting. I've been told they add 1 gram samples and 3 grams of silver but the way the coronets hold together doesn't look that way, unless they hold the shape of an annealing cup, that is a possibility. 

I'll try and get more information on the process to make more sense of it.


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## goldsilverpro

> Finally the parting. I've been told they add 1 gram samples and 3 grams of silver but the way the coronets hold together doesn't look that way, unless they hold the shape of an annealing cup, that is a possibility.



Do they use annealing cups or is that the form they take by just dissolving the silver out of the silver/gold bead? In the video, the coronets look big. In reality, they are much smaller.

I don't know. Maybe, with very weak nitric to start, you can first keep the gold from breaking up and produce the coronets shown in the video. Personally, I have never feared the breaking up of the gold. I add a lot of silver (5X to 6X) and let the gold break up. I part with 7/1, water/nitric, in a 30 ml Coors crucible and then swirl the particles until they settle together on the front bottom edge of the crucible. I then use a stronger acid( 3 HNO3/2 H2O), rinse it several times, and dry it slowly on the hot plate. In my life, 10,000 plus assays, I have never poured off a particle of gold doing this. I like this breaking up thing because it guarantees the elimination of everything but gold. With the old US mint method, keep it in one piece, 2/1 Ag/Au method, you are never sure unless you do it exactly as they do it, with jeweler's rolls and perforated platinum parting crucibles. I don't have these advantages.

BTW, I am really enjoying this discussion. Keep it up. 

Chris


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## 4metals

The coronets do look big, probably a close-up. Judging from the grain of the coronet, it probably takes the shape of the annealing vessel. The coronets I've produced from the rolling procedure (low silver) have a much tighter grain. 

I've done it with the 2:1 silver, annealing the beads, rolling them in the mill, and coiling the rolled beads before parting. They never fell apart in parting but it was real easy to lose a sliver of metal in the rolling mill unless you annealed after every pass. When I was taught, the 2:1 silver rolling and annealing method was referred to as the "long" procedure, the 3:1 silver that falls apart in parting was the "short" procedure. 

The small granules of gold behave well and it's relatively easy to decant without losing metal. Parting in Coors crucibles makes it easier to keep track of the gold granules because of the white color and you can anneal in the same vessel. I like the "short" procedure much better. I agree that the parting is more complete when the coronet breaks up.

I'll try and get more details on the assaying procedure as I'll be in Chicago most of next week. 

I still have my rolling mill but now I use it to roll out wax impressions of gill plates so I can age the fish I catch in my pond.


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## Chumbawamba

I look forward to the day that I understand what 4metals and GSP are talking about.

In the meantime, I still have to make time to wire up a 220V outlet for my kiln so I can test it out. I appreciate the talk of the amount of heat that these things can generate. I already knew that protective clothing would be required but didn't really think about it until reading this discussion. My kiln opens from the top with a big heavy door, so I will probably have to be wearing a full suit of leather armor when this thing gets up to temperature to move things in and out of it.

I think I'll probably have more fun with the gas powered furnace that I plan to construct at some point. Right now I'm still trying to get my backyard work shed going so I can continue my experiments. 21 more days of shortening length, then we plateau and the days start getting longer again. Yaaay!


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## grainsofgold

Daniel and Son Assay Office in LA does a ton of assays for Mid States- when I go to their office in LA they always have a stack from Mid States-

The video might be something they do once in a awhile- Good for the dog and pony show-


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## msrJack

I just discovered this forum so I apologize that my comments relative to the post I am replying to are not of a timely nature.

Grainsofgold - You made a post quite some time ago about seeing tons of Mid-States samples at Daniel & Son, and went on to say that a video of ours was a "Dog and Pony Show" of some sort. I am the owner of Mid-States Recycling in Chicago, and I can assure you that we have a fully staffed and operating assay laboratory in our facility, and have since we opened up in 1981. I welcome you to come and see it for yourself. We absolutely utilize the services of Daniel & Son, and still do to this day. As one of the largest volume processors of karat gold scrap in the US it's been sometimes difficult to keep up with the all the Fire Assays, and if I am in need of contracting out some of our overage you better believe it's going to go to Gary and his staff at D&S. They're one of the few outside labs that I have complete and total confidence. I would urge you to also ask Gary personally if what I am telling you is accurate.
We will always do whatever is necessary to provide our customers an assay result from a Fire Assay, and will not resort to using XRF as our means for determining the proper fine metal content in a customers lot. If that means sending out to a reputable commercial lab to meet our settlement date obligations to our customers because our own lab is backed up, then yes we will.

Jack Brown
Mid-States Recycling, Inc.
(no relation to Midwest Refineries - FYI)


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## Palladium

Welcome to the forum Jack.


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## Oz

Yes indeed, welcome to the forum Jack. 

I had to look back and read from the beginning as this was an old thread, just to be sure of what we were discussing. I noticed that the video clip being discussed however has been removed from your site. Could you post it here so there is a context to this discussion?


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## Palladium

Oz makes a good point. I would also like to point out the context of the words “ Dog and pony show “
The way I read the comment is that the video was made as part of the show. By show I think he meant as part of the marketing that we all have to do in order to promote a business or product. I don't think he was referring to the substance of the video, nor did he mean it as a direct reflection of your business practices.


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## 4metals

It's still there, go to http://www.midstatesrecycling.com/

on the right side scroll down to view facility and it is there.


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## Anonymous

4metals said:


> It's still there, go to http://www.midstatesrecycling.com/
> 
> on the right side scroll down to view facility and it is there.It's still there, go to http://www.midstatesrecycling.com/
> 
> on the right side scroll down to view facility and it is there.


Thank you 4metals.
I watched all 3 videos and I have to be honest,I saw things in all 3 that concerned me.I do not sell my material to a refiner,however If I were looking for a refiner,these videos would cause me to look elsewhere.That is just my oppinion,however I am sure others will pick up on several of the things I noticed.
Oh and welcome to the forum,and by the way......Grainsofgold hasn't been here since late 2009,so I doubt they will see your post.


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## 4metals

Mic,

What did you see that troubled you? Midstates is a quality house and I would like to know what you saw which troubles you enough to not send material to him. Honestly if you found issue there, you'll find it everywhere.


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## Anonymous

4metals said:


> Mic,
> 
> What did you see that troubled you?


I believe it would only cause a negative discussion on the forum,so I would rather keep it to myself,however I do find it hard to believe that you,or someone else has not caught anything that looks funny.


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## 4metals

> I watched all 3 videos and I have to be honest,I saw things in all 3 that concerned me.I do not sell my material to a refiner,however If I were looking for a refiner,these videos would cause me to look elsewhere.That is just my oppinion,however I am sure others will pick up on several of the things I noticed.



Mic,

I have done thousands of melts in my career, and witnessed even more. The melts in the video clip do not set off any bells for me. 

I do know that operations like Midstates have a reputation to uphold and to make a negative comment can do harm to their reputation. But to throw it out there and not give them anything to defend is totally unfair. 

I have noticed that the owner of Midstates has joined our forum, and I'm quite sure he will be back to read this thread. On his first post he offered to Grainsofgold to come and see his operation to prove the video wasn't part of a "Dog and Pony show." I think it is only fair you say what is wrong with the video so he can offer his defense. Midstates is certainly not a fly by night operation and does not deserve to be slandered in a way he cannot defend.


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## Harold_V

mic said:


> I watched all 3 videos and I have to be honest,I saw things in all 3 that concerned me.I do not sell my material to a refiner,however If I were looking for a refiner,these videos would cause me to look elsewhere.That is just my oppinion,however I am sure others will pick up on several of the things I noticed.


Having read this thread entirely, in fairness, I feel that you should make mention of what troubles you. Innuendo has a powerful way of painting a negative picture when nothing wrong may exist. If this individual or his business is proven to be caught-up in wrong doing, it should be disclosed, but to insinuate problems when none may exist isn't acting fairly. Things you found questionable may be easily explained, and prove educational, not only for you, but others.



> and by the way......Grainsofgold hasn't been here since late 2009,so I doubt they will see your post.


Grainsofgold made his last appearance on the board January 29, 2011, @ 12:46 pm.

Harold


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## msrJack

Well Mic,

Looks like you opened up the door for a new thread. "What's wrong with the Mid-States Video".
I am not insulted at all about your comment because you have done nothing to back it up.
I don't know what your background and expertise is with regards to the PM Refining Biz, but I believe our 30 years as an industry leader as Mid-States, not to mention our history going back to the former Simmons Refining Co. of Chicago for 30 more years prior to that gives us a touch of credibility. Can't wait to hear about your qualifications. Please enlighten us all.


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## Anonymous

msrJack said:


> Well Mic,
> 
> Looks like you opened up the door for a new thread. "What's wrong with the Mid-States Video".
> I am not insulted at all about your comment because you have done nothing to back it up.
> I don't know what your background and expertise is with regards to the PM Refining Biz, but I believe our 30 years as an industry leader as Mid-States, not to mention our history going back to the former Simmons Refining Co. of Chicago for 30 more years prior to that gives us a touch of credibility. Can't wait to hear about your qualifications. Please enlighten us all.


I have rewritten this 3 times now,to make very sure I choose my words carefully. 
Mr Brown,
you should not be insulted,what was said was not meant to insult you.If the shoe were on the other foot,I would not be insulted,but I would want to know what it was that "concerned" someone,so I could see if I needed to address a potential problem.I do not need to show,nor describe,my "qualifications" to you,nor do I need to "enlighten" you.The company you work for may have been doing this for a combined 60+ years but that certainly does not mean that you have.Now.....the *ONLY* reason I am going to mention what concerned me in the videos are because of what 4metals,and Harold have posted.Their posts were mature(as usual)and clearly thought out(as usual) and did not imply sarcasm.
Harold has stated before that he is only human and still capable of making a mistake.I am in no way better than him,or anyone else on this forum,I am human and *very* capable of making mistakes.
And for the record,I did in fact state that what I witnessed "concerned" me,and stated in the last post that what I witnessed looked "funny".I never stated or insinuated that there were deceptive pratices being performed,nor that a customer,or client had been,or was,being taken advantage of,or that there was a scam going on.Now all of that being said.......let me go back and watch them again so I can point out some things that concerned me.
Video #1 :
:22 As the melting dishes are being loaded into the furnace,the worker grips the outsides of the dish utilizing both hands on the tongs.
The dish could easily rotate between the fingers,causing material to spill or could break or crack under the pressure of the bars being placed on the sides.
The tongs should grip one side of the dish,like the worker does when he removes it.
:35 When initially breaking the flux off,the worker pounds it by hand against some sort of slab.
The button could easily be secured with one hand,and tapped with a chipping hammer in the other hand,like he/she does afterwards.
:57 Lead is clearly oozing out from the bottom of the cupels while the cupels are still being moved from one location to another.A piece of molten lead could easily fall into another cupel,which is what appears to have happened at 1:05 to two PM buttons.
Video #2:
Nothing major,but....they are using a plain lipped crucible,not a pouring crucible,or a crucible with a pour groove,therefore the gold appears to fall,with a little turbulance,about 6" before landing in the mold.Again,maybe nothing major,but could cause bb's to splatter out,and considering the scale in video #1 measured to the ten thousandths place,this would make a difference.
Then the worker has to "scrape" the inside of the crucible to get the rest of the material to come out.
Video #3:
:40 This may be an optical illusion,but I swear it looks as though the material has not fully melted.There is one point where the "pour" is split into 2 seperate streams,as though a solid piece of jewelry(or something) is splitting the stream in the crucible into two streams just before it exits the crucible.The pour appears to be quite lumpy to me,or maybe the worker is dumping it out too fast.
Now before you question my computer,I have a dell precision 650 server,with a 19" dell ultrasharp flatscreen lcd monitor,and I use a radeon 1 gig video card and a dvi hookup,just the way it came from Nasa.So no it is not a problem with my computer,and no it is not my eyes either. 
So there it is.I am sure some of my concerns are either not a problem,or not relevant,but they are to me.Which is what matters to me.
Mr.Brown I am sure you understand that I am entitled to post my observations.I meant/mean no harm,but occasionally I blurt out what I am thinking without reservation.
However as Harold said
" Things you found questionable may be easily explained, and prove educational, not only for you, but others." and educating others is my primary reason for being on the forum,so it would be hypocritical for me not to post my observations.
Thank you 4metals and Harold.If you two were not the way you are,I would not have bothered to go through all of the trouble to rewatch the video's and list my concerns.



Harold_V said:


> Grainsofgold made his last appearance on the board January 29, 2011, @ 12:46 pm.


On the user panel,it shows that was when his last post was.I made the mistake of assuming.I am sorry,I know better than that.

On that note,I am taking the wife out for breakfast,see you guys later.


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## 4metals

Mic,

The assays method used in the assay video is one I saw for the first time on the video. I was curious about it and tried it myself. I got very good results but it isn't a method I would choose over cupellation in lead boats. As has been mentioned before on the forum assays are always performed in duplicate. If the two or three cups don't come very close to each other, they are re-run. As a result you can catch your own mistakes. Is is possible to spill a scorifier when lifting it into place? Sure it is, and if it happens and the operator does not see it, the results indicate a problem and it is re-run. I'm sure if you run 100 assays there will be an issue with one of them due to handling. But I also know a carpenter hammering in 100 nails will bend a few. The results speak for themselves in assays, if Mid-states has assay issues, I doubt they would be as big a company as they are. 

The lack of a pouring spout on a tilt and pour melter is typical. Because the crucible doesn't rotate when pouring, because of the fixed tilt, the metal will pour out of the lowest part of the curve. Gravity still applies at high temperatures. When you pour by hand, a pouring spout makes things a bit easier to get it where you want it, when pouring from a tilting melter it is not necessary. If you are concerned with losing values from splash in the 6 inch drop, you will see if liquid splashes out of the mold, and most often if that happens it is slag. The scraping of the crucible at the end of the pour is typical, I would expect more criticism if it didn't happen. 

Concerning the split stream of molten metal / flux coming from the pour on the larger furnace pour. If they were to pour faster, the stream would not split, but as you pointed out earlier, splashing is a concern if the melt is poured too quickly. When the melt is poured and the flow is nice and slow and even, the stream will often split. The metal is much denser than the flux and it always comes out lower the flux, which has no value, often splits into a second stream. Unfortunately at the temperature required the glow of the flux and the glow of the molten metal both look the same so you can't tell one from the other. 

I want to say I have nothing to gain or lose from defending Mid-States, but I do respect Mr Jack Brown for coming on the site, stating who he is, and defending his reputation. There are many refiners who cannot defend their actions, when we get a refiner to come here and defend his methods it can only benefit our members. 

Welcome to the forum Jack


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## msrJack

Many thanks to 4metals for going into the details of much of what troubled Mic. I hope Mic would now re-consider as to whether or not he would consider using Mid-States.
We have new video waiting in the wings. Hope you'll all like that more then the last one.
Mic, thank you for sharing your thoughts and concerns. I appreciate the manner in which you explained what you thought were reasons to be alarmed.
BTW the topic of this post as Dickinson 26-H also needs to be corrected. We use Cress 1228's.  

Hello to All.

Jack


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## Anonymous

You are welcome.If I ever do use a refiner,I will certainly talk with you first,especially given the reports that 4metals and harold gave you.
Funny thing with them.....they can talk me into doing things I don't want to do,just by telling me it is the "right" thing to do.I care about them(and several other members) dearly.They have personally taken care of me for years,and deserve the utmost respect and admiration.
(Of course that list includes Steve)


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## jimdoc

I just wanted to say thanks for handling this the way you guys did.
It is the way it should be done, and I don't miss the fireworks and drama.

Jim


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## Palladium

jimdoc said:


> I just wanted to say thanks for handling this the way you guys did.
> It is the way it should be done, and I don't miss the fireworks and drama.
> 
> Jim



I agree.


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## grainsofgold

This is Grains of gold

the post that was supposedly made by me was over 2 years ago from the date stamp. To be honest I do not even check this forum all that often anymore and have since changed computers several times since then.

I have done business in the past with Mid States and never once had any problems with them. It would appear that someone other than me logged on under my account and wrote a post without my knowledge or my consent. I know nothing about this and suspect that my password to this site was on an old computer of mine. 

I am terribly sorry that this unfortunate error has occurred and again for the record Mid States is a highly reputable company. 

Next time I will take my hard drives to the shooting range and use them as targets. 

Someone that I know well on the forum just alerted me to this and I do appreciate that as this is not the sort of thing I subscribe to at all. 

grains of gold


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## msrJack

Grainsofgold,

Thank you for logging back on and commenting about the recent string of posts. I also appreciate the kind words about Mid-States.

Jack


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