# New Anode Bag Configuration



## kadriver (Jan 29, 2012)

I got some new style anode bags from Greg Stephens with http://www.anodeproducts.com

I described the basket to him, and he went to his grocer and bought identical baskets - identical to the ones I use for my silver cells.

He then fashioned 5 anode bags with draw strings. Instead of the bag inside the basket, it is on the outside. He sent them to me to try. If they work good I am ordering 100 bags from him.

Made of polypropylene material with double stitching.

kadriver


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## element47 (Jan 29, 2012)

What do you reckon is the advantage of the new config? Can the slimes be scraped off the internal basket, presumably after they dry? Or rinsed off, wet? I would think you're going to get some deposition on the internal basket and STILL have slimes deposited on the polypropylene bags.


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## kadriver (Jan 29, 2012)

Strictly convenience for me.

I was using shop vac bags, and it took me 2 hours to make each bag.

The slimes should wash off the basket with a squirt bottle.

This is an experiment. The guy made them for me so I will give them a try.

The slimes will get into the bags as there are holes drilled in each basket.

kadriver


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## niteliteone (Jan 30, 2012)

Any idea what he will be selling them for?

I'm tired of those bags from Lowes myself.

Tom C.


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## Grassbur (Jan 30, 2012)

i got some bags made from him also 4 inch x 4 inch x 4 inch for when i make my stainless container a cell. i paid 25$ for 4 bags including shipping to TX. all the bags he makes have drawstrings on them and price varies on how much material is used. but very resonable priced. considering the stitch work is doubled. i say this because both my grandmothers were seamstress. and the work isnt very difficult but tedious. so his labor cost is around 1$ per bag, you wont find a better deal then that unless, made by yourself or your wife.


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## kadriver (Jan 31, 2012)

He did not give me a price yet. I will contact him and get some more info and pass it on here on the forum.

So far the silver cells are working, but it seems very slow.

Could the thinkness of these bags effect the amount of silver being deposited?

And I don't see the little streams falling from the bottom of the bags like I am used to seeing.

The crystals were forming so slowly that I disconnected one of the cells and put the 3.3 volt power going to just one cell.

I will check it after a couple of hours and see if the crystals are growing faster.

Can the bag thickness effect crystal growth?

kadriver


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## Palladium (Jan 31, 2012)

What's the micron rating on the bags?


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## kadriver (Jan 31, 2012)

Palladium - I don't know. Will the micron size effect the rate?

I will ask Greg at Anode Products.

kadriver


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## MysticColby (Jan 31, 2012)

interesting idea. I like the idea to have the slimes collect on the bottom of the basket only - seems it would be much easier to remove.

polypropylene - is that the recommended bag material? any other specs for good thickness / stitch count / etc.?

p.s. your work area seems to be getting more cluttered than it used to be


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## kadriver (Jan 31, 2012)

These bags are very thick. The vac bags I was using were much thinner, allowing double bagging inside the anode basket.

I was getting some discoloration on the basket that was suspended in the electrolyte. Having the basket inside the filter will eliminate any possible contamination from the basket.

The best part is: it only took me 2 minutes to install each bag, instead of two hours.

Greg at Anode Products said he has some thinner material.

Today the silver is depositing much quicker. At first, there was almost no silver being deposited.

I am releived to see the cell working properly after starting off so slowly.

kadriver


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## Grassbur (Feb 1, 2012)

Kevin i have noticed a similar situation on my cells when i used to use multiple bars in the anode basket and found that when they are not very flat and dont have a good connection, even though the silver nitrate goes up to the top anode, the cell would not funtion properly. i finally got tired of that problem and now make my anodes with a 20 oz mold so its just one anode in the bag and not several. i dont know if this was or is your situation but thought i might pass it on.


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## MysticColby (Feb 1, 2012)

so the big question: how do we order these new bags from them? ^_^


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## Grassbur (Feb 1, 2012)

Call them. Their contact information is on the website kadriver has a link to in the first post.


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## kadriver (Feb 1, 2012)

Grassbur, that is a good suggestion. 

When the bags were in the basket, there was much less room for anode bars. They seemed crouded.

Now, with the bag outside of the basket, there is much more room inside the basket. Putting a large bar in there is a good idea.

The cells are now running perfectly. I am using the 5 volt rail from the power supply and the crystals are fat.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Feb 2, 2012)

Here is the reply I got from Greg at Anode Products:

Hi Kevin
The material sent was 13 o/z poly nap 5 microns I will sent you a few in 9 o/z poly lighter material 12 microns let’s see if they help

In 13 o/z poly nap run about 2.00 ea in 9 o/z poly 1.75 ea

Thanks 

Greg Stephens

The bags I make myself cost about 8 dollars for two of them.

Furthermore, they cost about two hours to make.

This seems like a no brainer.

The photo in this post is of the heavier, 13 o/z poly material at 5 microns.

The lighter weight 9 o/z poly bags with 12 microns would be a better fit.

Will 12 microns ensure no slimes make it into my clean silver in the cell?

kadriver


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## MysticColby (Feb 7, 2012)

12 microns...
that's 12 µm = 0.012 mm = 0.000012 meters
a human hair is around 40-50 µm
red blood cells are about 6-10 µm

gives you a sense of scale ^_^
anyways, there ARE dusts that are smaller than that. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/particle-sizes-d_934.html
it's all a matter of how much do you want to allow through vs. how fast it works. And not everything that's smaller than 12 µm will go through the net.


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## kadriver (Feb 13, 2012)

Hello: 

I wanted to report the results of the new anode bag configuration experiment.

The bags did not do so well. The silver that formed on the cathode was darker than usual, not a bright white color like I am used to seeing.

I took a small sample of the darker refined silver crystals and dissolved them in a test tube with dilute nitric acid.

The color almost immediately turned a pale yellow color - palladium contamination.

These bags seem to have altered the parameters in the cell and caused the palladium to co-deposit with the silver.

I had about 50 troy ounces in the cells, I was coounting on this silver for income - but I can't sell it with palladium contamination and call it pure silver.

I made new anode baskets with the original material from the vacuum cleaner bags purchased at Lowes as the filter material. Also, fresh new electrolyte.

I did not melt the contaminated silver crystals into anode bars. Instead I put the crystals right in the anode baskets filters and set an anode bar on top with a lug to attach the electrical connection.

The crystals are digesting nicely and the silver crystals forming in the cells are bright white and shiney like I am used to seeing.

Some yellow discoloration is forming in the electrolyte, but I expected this with the palladium being present.

For now, I would have to give these new anode bags a thumbs down. I will call Anode Products and let them know that the anode bags he made for me did not perform very well.

kadriver


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## qst42know (Feb 13, 2012)

> For now, I would have to give these new anode bags a thumbs down. I will call Anode Products and let them know that the anode bags he made for me did not perform very well.



A thumbs down? 

You're not expecting the bag to catch palladium in solution are you?


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## kadriver (Feb 13, 2012)

No, I do not expect the filter to catch palladium in solution.

I am simply reporting the results I got from using these new anode bags.

Something in the cell parameters changed when these new bags were put in the cells.

What parameter change occured - I do not know.

What I do know is that the silver, which was supposed to be pure, was contaminated with palladium - you could see the crystals were darker in places - not bright white as usual.

The test I performed confirmed the presence of palladium (at least as far as I could tell).

The "thumbs down" rating I gave to the performance of these anode bags is based solely on the results I got when I used them.

Hope this answers your question - kadriver


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## Geo (Feb 14, 2012)

it could be a defect in manufacturing if its just one or even a couple, if its more than that then it has to be a defect in the material its made of. it could be too porous or the needle width is too great. sounds like you were having better results with your homemade bags.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 14, 2012)

kadriver said:


> No, I do not expect the filter to catch palladium in solution.
> 
> I am simply reporting the results I got from using these new anode bags.
> 
> ...



What other test did you performe besides just looking at the color of your solution in the test tube? If this is the only test you did you can be inaccurate about your assumption.


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## Oz (Feb 14, 2012)

Given the small pore size in this test bag I can see the possibility of the bag itself being conductive but not allowing the electrolyte to flow freely enough through the cloth. This could have resulted in a localized depletion of silver in solution at the cathode causing the palladium to co-deposit. This can also happen when there is too much gold or other contaminates in your anode that slow up the silver from going into solution but remain conductive. 

It seems unlikely that this is a problem with particulates (slimes) finding their way through the cloth given the 5 micron pore size.


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## maltfoudy (Feb 14, 2012)

has anyone ever thought about milk surge filters???


http://www.fsbagfilter.com/TechnicalData.htm


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## kadriver (Feb 14, 2012)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> What other test did you performe besides just looking at the color of your solution in the test tube? If this is the only test you did you can be inaccurate about your assumption.



Barren:

Thanks for pointing that out, I performed two tests:

test #1. Visual discoloration of the silver crystals in the cell (also, the electrolyte had turned a pale yellow color).

test #2. Yellow color of the dissolved sample in the test tube.

I should have performed this third test right away, but didn't:

test #3. Add some DMG test solution to confirm presence of palladium.

I still have the dissolved solution in the test tube at my shop. I will put a few drops of DMG test solution in the test tube and see what result I get.

If palladium is present, then I should get a precipitate when DMG is added.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Feb 14, 2012)

Oz said:


> Given the small pore size in this test bag I can see the possibility of the bag itself being conductive but not allowing the electrolyte to flow freely enough through the cloth.



Oz:

I kept looking for the stream coming down from under the anode basket, but I never did see it.

The stream I am talking about looks like a waterfall streaming down from under the basket.

I think these anode bags were too restrictive causing the effect you mentioned of silver depletion, which in turn caused co-depositing of PGMs

With the old flter configuration, I could see "waterfall" start almost immediately after adding voltage, with silver beginning to deposit almost as fast on the cathode.

With the new bags, the silver did not start to deposit on the cathode for several hours. And I never did see a definite "waterfall" coming from the bottom of the anode basket with the new bags installed.

I think I am going to look into getting some muslin cloth.

I haven't sold a silver bar in almost a month - I sold some cemented silver to the refiner yesterday (NTR - newly opened branch office here). 189 grams. I needed the cash (I also sold him a pure gold bar - 1.09 troy ounces) He gave me 90% of spot for the silver and 98% of spot for the gold.

He shot the cemented silver with an XRF and said it contained .04 of one percent palladium. The silver was cemented silver from inquarting gold that I had cemented seperately. He also shot my gold bar and said it was 999 fine!

I now cement my silver used for inquarting gold seperately as it contains PGMs that can contribute to my silver cell contamination.

I will, from now on, use sterling and 925 silver for my silver cell (I know these also contain PGMS, but in much less concentration than silver used for inquarting).

kadriver


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## Palladium (Feb 14, 2012)

I ask the question about the micron size because I was wondering if that could have been the problem. In the Shor cell a Semi permeable membrane is used to control the migration of different size ions. In the shor cell that is a .5 micron barrier which will block the larger ions such as gold, copper, palladium, and such from crossing the barrier and depositing on the cathode. When ions pass thru a material they must have a channel in which to migrate through. Much like bottlenecking a major highway system from 5 lanes down to one lane. I think the word for it is membrane potential. I don’t know what the ion sizes in a silver cell are I know they are dependant on the radii size of the ions but then when they from complex ions the size increases even more. An example would be the size of the cl ion verses the size of an aucl4 ion. I’m wondering if the difference in your cell production can be related to the thickness in the material used for the anode bags. The thinner bags you have been using allows for quicker ion transport across the membrane. The new material you’re trying is thicker and seems to limit that transport. Another thing is the voltage potential across the membrane you are getting from the power supply you are using may just be causing palladium to deposit because of the shortage of silver at the cathode and its depositing palladium with the silver. If you had a variable power supply it would be interesting to leave the current the same but trim the voltage just to see if the overvoltage combined with the restrictive properties of the membrane can be balanced to see if that is the problem. I would say try a 5 micron size but in a thinner material. I’m not sure how all this works but I hope my rambling might give you a starting point.


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## MysticColby (Feb 14, 2012)

The waterfall stream you described - I see it all the time at work. It's caused by a liquid of one density entering/mixing with a liquid of a different density (for example: add salt water to pure water). looks similar to heat waves coming off the hood of a car when it's scorching outside, only upside down. For a silver cell, maybe it's different densities of silver nitrate mixing together (high inside the bag, low outside the bag)?

I've heard muslin cloth recommended before. I purchased some, but it looks like the holes through it are kinda big (like a needle would go through it without stretching a thread to the side). what thread count is sufficient for anode bags? and I'm guessing multiple bags is recommended.

*I edited out the assumptions I made that made it seem like I know more than I do*


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## Palladium (Feb 14, 2012)

MysticColby said:


> I've heard muslin cloth recommended before. I purchased some, but it looks like the holes through it are kinda big (like a needle would go through it without stretching a thread to the side). *what thread count is sufficient for anode bags?*



http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7030#p63113


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## Palladium (Feb 14, 2012)

Hummmm....
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=unbleached+muslin+tea+bags&_frs=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m359


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## kadriver (Feb 14, 2012)

Mystic - that is a perfect description of the waterfall that I see.

It looks like a heat mirrage, only inverted. I never seen it with the thicker, 5 micron bags installed.

I have been getting excellent results using the wet/dry vacuum cleaner bags I bought from Lowes.

The Lowes bags are made of a white nylon/polyester looking fabric. It appears to be a synthetic material.

I don't know what the material is, but I do know the bags makes some beautiful crystals form in my cells.

After trying those new bags and getting some contaminated silver, I now have a new appreciation for the vacuum cleaner bags - even though it takes about two hours to prepare them!

kadriver


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## MysticColby (Feb 14, 2012)

kadriver said:


> He shot the cemented silver with an XRF and said it contained .04 of one percent palladium.



"0.04 of 1%", does that mean 0.04%? so 99.96% silver (assuming that's the only contaminant)?

Thanks, palladium.
I had purchased two different size muslin cloths: 67 thread per inch and 160 thread per inch. They looked identical. could be they made a mistake with the 160 one, sending me a 67 instead. I think I'll try a difference source


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## Palladium (Feb 14, 2012)

Kadriver, could you post the name of them bags so i can do some research?


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## MysticColby (Feb 14, 2012)

So, what I take away from this so far (correct me if I'm wrong) is that 5 micron is too small, but not by much.
Did you try that 9 oz polynap with 12 microns material?

Maybe I should give something like this a try?: http://www.ebay.com/itm/190540267355
they also have 25 micron sizes... if 10 doesn't allow enough liquid flow.
Some reshaping would be needed, of course.
(anodeproducts.com lists polypropylene as a good material for anode bags, which is why I searched for it - eBay hasn't heard of polynap, so few have)


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## kadriver (Feb 14, 2012)

here is some pictures I just shot with the Lowes vacuum cleaner bags as filters.

NTR gave me 99.9% purity on the cemented silver, then said there was .04 of one percent palladium - so I guess that means 99.96% pure.

All these numbers are confusing sometimes.

Palladium, picture of the vacuum cleaner bags coming up.


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## kadriver (Feb 14, 2012)

Palladium:

Here is a picture of the vacuum cleaner bags I use to manufacture anode bags and get excellent results.

kadriver


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## MysticColby (Feb 14, 2012)

I like how kadriver seems to be the measure of how stuff should be done ^_^
Only thing I could find on that filter is that it's made of Dacron:
Dacron Cloth Filter - shop-vaccom
"Sailcloth is typically made from PET fibers also known as polyester or under the brand name Dacron" - wikipedia
"Polyethylene terephthalate (sometimes written poly(ethylene terephthalate)), commonly abbreviated PET, PETE, or the obsolete PETP or PET-P, is a thermoplastic polymer resin of the polyester family and is used in synthetic fibers" - wikipedia


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## Acid_Bath76 (Feb 14, 2012)

Dudadiesel.com has some pretty neat bags that I've used for filtering all sorts of acidic solutions. Some of the stuff he sells is pricey, but you might find something affordable that works better than your current setup.. or better yet... brings an idea to mind.


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## kadriver (Feb 15, 2012)

Dacron Cloth - I wish I could find a yard of it instead of having to cut nearly 2000 individual stitches with a razor blade to make these 90115 shop vac bags fit into the little basket I use.

I use my reading glasses and a head visor magnifier and carefully cut each individual stitch with a sharp razor blade. I have to use a new razor blade after cutting about 500 stitches because the blade starts to dull after cutting that many stitches - both sides of the balde.

It literally takes me two hours to cut the stitches to remove the rubber retainer and disassemble the bag so I can get a nice flat piece to work with. All the while being careful not to snag a fiber with the blade and cause a thread to displace creating a spot for leakage of solids into the cell.

I use double layer for each anode basket for two bag protection against solids getting into the pure silver crystals. So far this is the best material I have found to produce excellent silver crystals in my silver cells.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Feb 15, 2012)

Unbelieveable - could this be what I am looking for?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sail-Cloth-60-5-5oz-White-Dacron-Polyester-5-yards-/260916549140?pt=US_Fabric&hash=item3cbfd69614

If this is the same material as the shop vac bags, then I could almost eat my shorts.

It is called "sail material" and only $25 for 5 yards. I wonder if this material is sold at a fabric shop?

Mystic - thank you for finding out about this dacron material!

I'll take a sample with me tomorrow and start checking fabric shops.

kadriver


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## element47 (Feb 15, 2012)

> I'll take a sample with me tomorrow and start checking fabric shops.



If you can find a sailmaker (for sailboats, duh) anywhere around you I am sure you can get small scraps of sail material for free or almost free. You live near the ocean or near water? Not all of it will be white, but most of it will be.


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## MysticColby (Feb 15, 2012)

kadriver said:


> Unbelieveable - could this be what I am looking for?



yes and no. brand names usually refer to a material, not necessarily a pore size or thickness. (like how Kevlar comes in how ever many layers thick you want it)
Then again, I would expect a cloth for sailing to want as little air to get through it as possible
on Dacron website, they also mention that they make pillow cases out of it.
But rolls of sailcloth would probably be the flattest shape you could get it in.


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## Palladium (Feb 15, 2012)

???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-100-DACRON-OXFORD-WEAVE-TABLE-CLOTHS-MILLIKEN-50-/350534520257?pt=Table_Linens&hash=item519d7c4dc1


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## Lobby (Feb 23, 2012)

MysticColby said:


> kadriver said:
> 
> 
> > Unbelieveable - could this be what I am looking for?
> ...



I agree. Dacron is just a material. The fact that it's used for vacuum cleaner bags just means that it's woven a specific way to trap the dust particles per the vacuum manufacturer specs. 

I think that's the key clue: what filter properties does the vacuum cleaner manufacturer require? And then what material do we wish to use to handle the environment in the cell?

But I'm just framing the questions. I don't know what the answers are. :mrgreen:


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## kadriver (Feb 24, 2012)

Lobby:

I am using the dacron material and getting excellent results.

I just got lucky when I was constructing my very first silver cell.

I did not know what material to use - Steve's DVD suggested polypropylene, but I had no clue what that was.

I just started searching in Lowes and found those vacuum bags - they work perfect.

kadriver


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