# Hosting a gold recovery class in San Francisco!



## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

On Tuesday the 28th I will be hosing a gold recovery class at my local hackerspace Noisebridge. If anyone is in the area and wants to attend please go here for more infohttps://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Category:Events 

This site will be recommended to all attendees as it is a goldmine of information. The class will basically be covering the most common places you will find gold in electronics and it will also be covering briefly the chemical process for extraction. (I'm going to show HLC and hydrogen peroxide, then the aqua regia step, and finally neutralization of acids).

For my list of most common places to find gold I'm going to show processors (ceramic mostly), cell phone boards, connector pins from all basic connectors, and plating on random PCBs.

This class is simply to help identify the gold and talk about yield without the refining part. I do eventually want to construct a DIY fume hood for anyone to use that will allow me to do a class showing the process with the acids and a side chemistry class not focused on metal recovery.

If anyone has suggestions on key points I should cover please feel free to let me know. If you can make the trip please come, I am most likely less experienced than you are as I'm going by the info on this forum and other reference material online but I do have a ton of scrap I've gathered over the years.


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## MarcoP (Jul 27, 2015)

Along the fume hood you should also explain capturing and neutralization of fumes via scrubber. Waste treatment, explosive treats (silver/gold fulminate, allergies and poisonings from platinum, etc.) and at the end chemical processes.

2c
Marco


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## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

MarcoP said:


> Along the fume hood you should also explain capturing and neutralization of fumes via scrubber. Waste treatment, explosive treats (silver/gold fulminate, allergies and poisonings from platinum, etc.) and at the end chemical processes.
> 
> 2c
> Marco



I obviously need to do some more research. I had no idea about gold fulminate. I'll be sure to mention it briefly and go more in depth as we start doing hands on refining. Thanks for the good suggestions!


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## solar_plasma (Jul 27, 2015)

Sorry...BUT....You know nothing and want to teach others about this matter??? This is not done by a little reading and some youtube videos, this is not like learning to draw some manga pics into your schoolbooks! Completely irresponsible.

You want advice? Don't even mention the chemical recovering and refining part! Tell them where to find valuable parts and who those parts can be sold to.

Or, at least, tell them how to read and use this forum, how to use the search function, where to start, what is needed and what sections to read first. Tell them learning will cost money, time and effort. If they want to make money, they should sell their stuff.


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## rickbb (Jul 27, 2015)

I seriously hope you will not be producing chlorine gas and nitric oxide fumes inside a room full of people and just briefly mention, "oh by the way the fumes you see are deadly poison, but someday I'll get around to building a fume hood".

ARE YOU MENTAL!?!?

Edit; I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude and insult you. I apologize. But I did not remove my comment. Seriously think twice about doing any demonstration.

Show a video maybe, but without proper equipment and some serious discussions on safety you should just leave it alone. You could get someone hurt or killed doing this!


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## Lou (Jul 27, 2015)

Start with theory (ashapura thread in library, actually all of library, is a great start).


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## kuma (Jul 27, 2015)

Nutella, are you Jon the chocolatier, by any chance?

If so, I see no mention anywhere of you showing an interest in precious metals recovery or refinery in any of your online activity, not even urban mining. This seems like a new fad for you if that is indeed who you are, and one of many might I add. 

I know that this is exciting stuff, and I feel your enthusiasm, we've all been there, but please take the above advice onboard. People and property can be severely damaged, even beyond repair, if one was to go into this blind, even more so leading others in the process.

If I'm off the mark and you're experienced and knowledgeable in this kind of thing, I apologise. If I'm right, please don't be freaked out, this is the internet afterall. 

All the best, Chris


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## 4metals (Jul 27, 2015)

I would suggest you touch on the where to get scrap end of this followed by demonstrations of testing as described in Hoke and in the library. A hands on demonstration of stannous chloride testing so they can see results. 

I will say this is a subject that takes a lifetime of hands on experience to learn. Anyone who comes to the GRF thinking they know refining quickly finds out there is always more to learn. That said I think it is quite remarkable that you will be teaching a class and referencing GRF as your source of knowledge. I will say that GRF will not be responsible for any of your students who go off half cocked after your class which you, an admitted novice, feel a need to teach. 

I think a better use of your time would be to study on the forum and perfect the techniques discussed here. Then, armed with hands on experience and true learned knowledge, you can decide on your path as a refiner or an educator.


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## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

solar_plasma said:


> Sorry...BUT....You know nothing and want to teach others about this matter??? This is not done by a little reading and some youtube videos, this is not like learning to draw some manga pics into your schoolbooks! Completely irresponsible.
> 
> You want advice? Don't even mention the chemical recovering and refining part! Tell them where to find valuable parts and who those parts can be sold to.
> 
> Or, at least, tell them how to read and use this forum, how to use the search function, where to start, what is needed and what sections to read first. Tell them learning will cost money, time and effort. If they want to make money, they should sell their stuff.



Isn't that how we all started out? I'm not going to be wearing a welding mask and flip flops like some videos I've seen. I have a deep love for chemistry and a respect for the safety involved with it. I appreciate the advice though but once we have a safe environment set up I'm still going to pursue this.

This class will focus on all the physical aspects of collection, nothing chemical other than a mention of it


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## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

rickbb said:


> I seriously hope you will not be producing chlorine gas and nitric oxide fumes inside a room full of people and just briefly mention, "oh by the way the fumes you see are deadly poison, but someday I'll get around to building a fume hood".
> 
> ARE YOU MENTAL!?!?
> 
> ...



Once we have a fume hood and safe environment set up we will be going through procedures and reading the MSDS thoroughly before even a glove is put on.

this is not something I'm doing on a whim.


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## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

kuma said:


> Nutella, are you Jon the chocolatier, by any chance?
> 
> If so, I see no mention anywhere of you showing an interest in precious metals recovery or refinery in any of your online activity, not even urban mining. This seems like a new fad for you if that is indeed who you are, and one of many might I add.
> 
> ...




That is me! Your are a grade A sleuth. The main reason I'm doing a class at all and not on my own is because Noisebridge gets a lot of donations in the form of physical electronics and a lot of it goes to junk. This isn't a residential house, this is a non profit organization that gets a lot of scrap flowing through it monthly. I would like to make the space a little $ on the side(I know, labor and time, I've seen the baby buttons) but don't get me wrong I have researched this a lot! This is not a whim and I mentioned in other posts that Safety is my number one concern. This class will cover nothing chemical, I'd like to see everyone involved with little jars of fingers and pins and have a functioning fume hood before I even put together the chemical demonstration. I'm not going in blind, I'm using the resources you all have provided, It seems too have done you guys well right?


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## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

4metals said:


> I would suggest you touch on the where to get scrap end of this followed by demonstrations of testing as described in Hoke and in the library. A hands on demonstration of stannous chloride testing so they can see results.
> 
> I will say this is a subject that takes a lifetime of hands on experience to learn. Anyone who comes to the GRF thinking they know refining quickly finds out there is always more to learn. That said I think it is quite remarkable that you will be teaching a class and referencing GRF as your source of knowledge. I will say that GRF will not be responsible for any of your students who go off half cocked after your class which you, an admitted novice, feel a need to teach.
> 
> I think a better use of your time would be to study on the forum and perfect the techniques discussed here. Then, armed with hands on experience and true learned knowledge, you can decide on your path as a refiner or an educator.




I wasn't planning on doing anything chemical this class, as I mentioned in my other comments. Probably the one thing I'm going to push the most is how this is not a get rich quick strategy like most people (not on here) make it out to be.

There is a lot I want to cover but considering the class is tomorrow I'm just going to talk about simple stuff. Where to find gold and how to collect it. I'll cover the differences between GP and GF, talk about microns and yields. That sounds easy enough for a novice to do right?


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## Anonymous (Jul 27, 2015)

Are you some kind of blogger?


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## kuma (Jul 27, 2015)

nutella said:


> ...and it will also be covering briefly the chemical process for extraction. (I'm going to show HLC and hydrogen peroxide, then the aqua regia step, and finally neutralization of acids)





nutella said:


> I wasn't planning on doing anything chemical this class, as I mentioned in my other comments. Probably the one thing I'm going to push the most is how this is not a get rich quick strategy like most people (not on here) make it out to be.



Dude, :roll:


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## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

spaceships said:


> Are you some kind of blogger?



No, but I certainly hope I'm not coming off in negative way.


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## nutella (Jul 27, 2015)

kuma said:


> nutella said:
> 
> 
> > ...and it will also be covering briefly the chemical process for extraction. (I'm going to show HLC and hydrogen peroxide, then the aqua regia step, and finally neutralization of acids)
> ...



Sorry for the mismatched information. You guys have already caused me to revise how I'm going to do this class, which I hope is good.


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## kuma (Jul 27, 2015)

nutella said:


> Sorry for the mismatched information. You guys have already caused me to revise how I'm going to do this class, which I hope is good.



8)


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## patnor1011 (Jul 28, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noisebridge


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## shmandi (Jul 28, 2015)

nutella said:


> This site will be recommended to all attendees as it is a goldmine of information. The class will basically be covering the most common places you will find gold in electronics and it will also be covering briefly the chemical process for extraction. (I'm going to show HLC and hydrogen peroxide, then the aqua regia step, and finally neutralization of acids).



And what exactly is "HLC"? Chemistry is an exact science and there is no room for such mistakes.


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## nutella (Jul 28, 2015)

shmandi said:


> nutella said:
> 
> 
> > This site will be recommended to all attendees as it is a goldmine of information. The class will basically be covering the most common places you will find gold in electronics and it will also be covering briefly the chemical process for extraction. (I'm going to show HLC and hydrogen peroxide, then the aqua regia step, and finally neutralization of acids).
> ...




Typo, meant HCL, as in Hydrochloric acid. As I mentioned above I will not be covering the chemicals used in depth during the first class. Once we have a safe environment (gear, MSDS, competence, ect) then I will cover those methods.


I already have safety gear and the acids (stored properly of course). I am in no way trying to jump headfirst into this.


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## nutella (Jul 28, 2015)

patnor1011 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noisebridge



That is the place! We recently went through a reboot phase and are remodeling. There is talk that the darkroom will be turned into a room with a concrete/tile floor for flammables/chemicals. We no longer have a kitchen, just a sink and fridge. If anyone is ever in the San Francisco area it is a good place to check out. Its what got me into electrical engineering.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 28, 2015)

> I already have safety gear and the acids (stored properly of course).



Your first experiment: examine any iron items in the environment of the HCl bottle over the time


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## MarcoP (Jul 28, 2015)

It seems to me you are too sure of what you know. Briefly explaining steps will give the impression that are not so important and or risk-less. You risk to pass your security to everyone coming to the class risking to create, and then be chased by, severe consequences.

I'm talking about my self because I'm clearly not in a position to judge.
When I'll able to write down an entire process using different feedstock from A to Z including everything it can go wrong (and it will), most variables that could potentially change the course of the process, safety precautions (and i mean PREcautions). When I could describe each component I'll be processing, metals and alloys composition and their behavior in different acid/alkali ... then and only then I might think to experiment continuously on my own first, for about 10 years, while achieving an high recovery rate then and only then I'll be able to help outside this forum (here everyone is spot on and able to correct each other, no false or erroneous info).

No, I wouldn't host any class, I'll take few.

Marco


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## patnor1011 (Jul 28, 2015)

It cant be a class, there will be no teacher there.


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## nutella (Jul 28, 2015)

MarcoP said:


> It seems to me you are too sure of what you know. Briefly explaining steps will give the impression that are not so important and or risk-less. You risk to pass your security to everyone coming to the class risking to create, and then be chased by, severe consequences.
> 
> I'm talking about my self because I'm clearly not in a position to judge.
> When I'll able to write down an entire process using different feedstock from A to Z including everything it can go wrong (and it will), most variables that could potentially change the course of the process, safety precautions (and i mean PREcautions). When I could describe each component I'll be processing, metals and alloys composition and their behavior in different acid/alkali ... then and only then I might think to experiment continuously on my own first, for about 10 years, while achieving an high recovery rate then and only then I'll be able to help outside this forum (here everyone is spot on and able to correct each other, no false or erroneous info).
> ...




I'll admit I like to think I know how to do something once I read and watch about it, again, that's why I'm not going to be doing chemicals this class. All of you are really pushing safety and understanding and I get that. I already know there are people more knowledgable than me at the hackerspace and there will be a lot of caution taken if it ever gets to that point.

When I was a lot younger I would try to do chemistry on my own. I remember my Dad picking me up some sulfuric acid so I could react it with sugar for that cool little column of carbon. I ended up doing it wrong and had to neutralize the acid. I could have choosing baking soda (safe but messy) or bleach (not messy but toxic). Being the stupid little kid I was I chose bleach. Was outside but boy that smell stunk and I'm surprised I don't have any lasting lung damage. It's experiences like that which make me realize how dumb I can be, I'm certainly not my younger self anymore. 

I've already gotten into a little trouble when I first joined the space. I extracted lithium out of a lithium battery. I didn't fully open it till I was outside but the chemically smell of bananas still lingers in my memory.

Now I know that looks pretty bad on my end and I can't excuse carelessness but this time I'm trying to do things right (not implying I've always done it wrong though)

I feel like over all I've kind of come across in a bad way but the only reason I posted here is because I was looking for how I should do this and good suggestive criticism. You all have given me both and I thank you for that


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## nutella (Jul 28, 2015)

patnor1011 said:


> It cant be a class, there will be no teacher there.



There will be a disclaimer at the begging saying how I'm not fully knowledgable on the subject and anyone is free to correct me. In a sense I will also be the student. 

I won't be going by what I think I know, I'll be going by the information I've read here and other credible places.


There is 1 rule in the space and that is to be excellent. Anyone can set up a class for anything and gold recovery seems like something a place that cycles through a ton of e-waste monthly could benefit from.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 28, 2015)

> I'm certainly not my younger self anymore.



Look...this thinking is dangerous. We are always our younger selves of our selves in the future and experience is a ticket to a train that has left the station, especially in circumstances we at any time could be faced new situations.

Don't feel offended and think over this:* You can't know, not even imagine, what you don't know.* We can, we have been there and this is why we are able to tell you in all objectivity, that you still are on a wrong trace. 

Some quotes from The last unicorn come to mind: _No, no, listen. Don't listen to me, listen._ and _It's a rare man who is taken for what he truly is … There is much misjudgment in the world. … We are not always what we seem, and hardly ever what we dream._


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## shmandi (Jul 28, 2015)

nutella said:


> Typo, meant HCL, as in Hydrochloric acid. As I mentioned above I will not be covering the chemicals used in depth during the first class. Once we have a safe environment (gear, MSDS, competence, ect) then I will cover those methods.
> 
> 
> I already have safety gear and the acids (stored properly of course). I am in no way trying to jump headfirst into this.



If you ment Hydrochloric acid, you should have written HCl. As I mentioned, chemistry is an exact science.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 28, 2015)

Said another way....you could read and prepare yourself for 30 days as if you were working on your bachelor...if then we would set up a beginner's test, you would have good chances that you would not pass. Probably none would have after 30 days.

If you want to go this road, it will take you many months, maybe years of reading and working hands on - alone with yourself and this forum. Then you might be able to do, want you think now you can do in 30 or 60 days. Some very closely defined matters you might be able to tell others about and show others after shorter time. But what I hear you saying until now is mostly unrealistic.

Shift down a gear. Stop dreaming for the moment and start listening. Before you do anything else (also stop provoking this well meant storm we blow into your face) and start reading Hoke and the library, when you have done this, read most of it again, choose the experiments, the material that suits you best - probably something easy like gold fingers in CuCl2 leach for recovering and dissolution in HCl/chlorox - yes, then you will be glad having a fume hood and what else needed in a lab - but forget :!: about doing this in front of other people the first dozen of times. You will not :!: be able to teach and do things right at the same time without routined expertise doing this experiment and a wide horizon of knowledge about it. Not "knowledge" you read up the day before, able to reiterate like a parrot. I mean knowlegde that is clear for you just as knowing blue is blue and red is red.

We`ve seen a lot of nine day wonders coming here with great shouting enthusiasm, arguing, trying to get people to think they are smart and they left as fast as they came. The more you are arguing the more you make yourself looking like one of them. Stop arguing, stop defending yourself - the battle has been lost before you came here. Start reading and learning! Then, ask good questions!


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## solar_plasma (Jul 28, 2015)

Another important thing...

partly it has been said before. Emphasize with those excited people listening to you, most of them will not be satisfied just hearing what can be done, they will come with the notion, they get a course and will be able to dive into this themselves. Never underestimate the gold fever! It hits between someone's eyes!

Are you really sure you are ready to, really prepared to *lead *them? You aren't. At this point you have first to come clear with yourself. And you *need *expertise in order to have their respect, so that they will follow your advices. At this point you are not even a good role model.

As I said, we had a lot of nine day wonders, but something is new. None of them had the idea not only learning this art in a breath, this time someone believes he will be able to teach in the same breath.

Still, don't feel bad. Some folks who had a hard time to understand in the beginning are very knowledged and respected members now.


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## Palladium (Jul 28, 2015)

I teach this subject to clients about twice a year on average. The preparation alone before you get to the education part is daunting to say the least. Then there's still a list of things that haven't even been mentioned yet. Biggest being its S.F. and located in California!!!


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## nutella (Aug 16, 2015)

Just a follow up for you guys, the class went well even though only 5 people showed up. I covered the basics of locating gold plating. I had some examples like some old ceramic processors and a cell phone I disassembled. I mentioned how acids would be used to refine it but I did not go into detail and I explained how I needed a fume hood and a safe environment for any reactions. I think everyone there was pretty disappointed it wasn't a get rich tutorial, but rather a tedious, dangerous but satisfying side hobby.

Overall I am happy with how everything went and I will start work on building a fume hood (with a scrubber) soon.


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