# More and more rules at the scrapyards.



## hyderconsulting (Nov 9, 2009)

I've been running into more and more rules about how and what you can sell in the way of ferrous and nonferrous metals at the scrapyards. This last week I took some insulated wire into the yard and the scalemaster informed me that it had too many plastic connectors on it to be graded as No. 1 insulated wiring so it had to be downgraded. He said the buyer had tightened the grade specs on it and they had to comply. It was the same type of computer wiring I had been bringing them for some time. I asked him what other specs had changed and he said no more aluminum pie tins or foil in the aluminum cans. I'm just noting that this is the trend and we have to keep up with more and more of this rules than we ever have had to before just to get some scrap sold and get the best price for it. Something is not right when it takes more paperwork and ID's to sell $50 of copper scrap to the scrapyard next door to you than $5,000 to an out of state buyer.
One thing I'm going to do and you need to do also is to go and checkout the other scrapyards in your area to see if they are any easier to deal with than the current one you are using. I haven't done this in a while but I'm going to. At one time I avoided a couple of them because they seemed to be a little slow and troublesome. Now considering what I have to go thru at my current scrapyard they may now seem to be really fast. Things change too so you always need to check and see what is going on elsewhere.
Another rule the scrapyard has initiated is that the speed limit on the yard is 3 miles per hour. My pickem'up truck can't go that slow!!!!!!!! Regards, Chris.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2009)

Each yard is going to have it's own set of rules for grading, the small family run yards have had a monopoly on scrap metal since WWII when the world would not let them fight or work. A certain ethnic peoples took to the streets and iron mongers and rag and bone to survive.

I used to haul into the steel mill, each load was brokered from a smaller yard and the mill had a 20,000 lb minimum to cross the scale, this is how tight the market was controlled. 

Brokerage has been done away with but the steel mill rule still applies you need serious tonnage to cross over that scale into the mill yard. The Mill rules are a different world, 90% of the time only the trucker arrives at the yard and he knows squat about scrap so you better have it right the first time, or your not coming back.

I honestly can not figure why anyone would deal with a small family run yard where the rules and grading system are constantly changing to suit the owners.

I have hauled or sent scrap by the semi load B trains to Simon and Sons, Western Canada Steel, Stelco and Richmond Steel, it matters none if I'm shipping scrap to the U.S., Vancouver B.C., Edmonton or Winnipeg the rules are the same and have not changed in the past 40 years or more.

Did you know that the Mills have zones, Zone 1 a fifty mile radius from the mill pays less than Zone 3 or 4, it;s been a long time since I had to worry about which zone I was shipping from so ask your local mill yard for exact figures and millage.

From what I hear it's not all that difficult to ship container loads of non ferrous metals and batteries overseas, plenty of empty containers going back you just have to hook up with someone in the container business. Have your load palletized and ready because there will be a time schedule to keep or your going to be paying demurage.


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## silversaddle1 (Nov 10, 2009)

What type of connectors are you leaving on your wire?

As for the cans & foils, around here it's cans only, nothing can be mixed in with them. Been that way as long as I can remember.

We do all our business with one company only. That's not saying that we don't shop around on prices. If someone comes in higher, they will match or beat the price. Advantage to this is the yard employees all know me, as do all the managers. No ID or prints required.


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## hyderconsulting (Nov 10, 2009)

The connectors on the wiring came from copiers and printers. It didn't have any gold connectors on it. I mix it in with power supply, phone, monitor and other miscellaneous wiring as I usually did but this last time they decided it had too much plastic on it to be graded as No. 1 Insulated.
About the aluminum foil and pie tins being mixed in UBC's I've found that the rules on this to vary over the years from scrapyard to scrapyard and within the same scrapyard. Sometimes you are allowed to add a little foil in with the cans and sometimes not. The yards seem to get stricter when the scrap prices are very high or very low.
Where I'm at in Tennessee the laws are quite specific on ID's required to sell scrap. You have to have a photo ID, vehicle tag number and be fingerprinted to receive payment. At one yard if I sell steel scrap, copper scrap and other scrap such as aluminum and stainless I have to put my fingerprint on three separate forms for each type of sale. Oh, I'm on a first name basis with them at the yard. It doesn't make any difference. Been doing business with them for many years but I still have to follow the same rules. I also have a business account with them. All that allows me is to be paid for my copper scrap I sell the same day.
I understand what Gustavus is saying about bigger loads and dealing with larger scrapyards and mills but 90 percent of the scrappers don't have the storage space or volume to send bigger loads out for bigger money. Most scrappers have to move it out when they have a pickup truck load ready because they need the money ASAP.
Concerning the mom and pop scrap yards in my area of the country these smaller scrapyards are less strict about what you sell to them than the larger ones. They often pay a little less but you can get in and out of them quicker than a lot of the larger yards. Time is money.
I'm taking a trip soon across the border to Georgia with my next scrap load and I'll see how it goes. Regards, Chris.


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## Oz (Nov 11, 2009)

I remember the first time I had to get printed to cash a check. It was a major bank in a large city, I was dumbfounded. It amazes me sometimes how times have changed.

Recently someone mentioned meeting a man who years ago got small quantities of nitric from the drug store. I am only in my forties but I bought my first nitric and crystalline iodine from the local druggist as a teenager without my parents. 

These changes are a sad commentary on society. Realistic precautions perhaps but sad they have become needed.


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## pinwheel (Nov 13, 2009)

None of your wire is #1 coming from computers and printers. You are lucky to get #1 at all for that.

It is #2 and some likely #3 wire.

#1 is 16 gauge or larger. I use as a rule of thumb: bend it, does it stay bent? If yes = #1. If you cannot bend it at all its very number 1. If it bends half way back and stops its borderline.

#1 wire also never has attachments. 

What was happening was some scale guy was screwing over their boss or they really liked you for tipping them or something along those lines.


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## hyderconsulting (Nov 13, 2009)

Nothing like that, Pinwheel. This particular scrapyard has always paid No. 1 prices for all the insulated wire coming thru the small scale weigh ups for some reason. All I've really ever had go thru them is No.2 and No.3 in my boxes. The scalemaster has nothing to do with it for they change around periodically from positions in the scrap yard. Only this last time have they gotten particular. regards, Chris Hyder.


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## pinwheel (Nov 13, 2009)

If they have a wire granulator it might be a ploy to get more wire from the market. hmmmm

Just our of curiosity what was your price last time for this #2 going as #1?

The people we work with pay the same for 2-3 and the same for romex and #1.


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## Anonymous (Nov 13, 2009)

Lets hear from Canadians how many scrap yards paying in Cash.

No fingerprint required. Just a one time computer entry with your personal or business information.

Davis Trading have on their website a no bull grading system, for those wishing to educate themselves in how metals are actually graded for acceptance into the yard for payment.

1. Felix Salvage, Surrey B.C. http://maps.google.ca/places/ca/surrey/king-george-hwy/12855/-felix-salvage-&-exchange
2. West Coast Metals in Langley B.C. http://www.westcoastmetalrecycling.com/ 
3. Rudy in Aldergrove B.C.
4. Davis Trading, Vancouver B.C. http://www.davistrading.com/commodities.php
5. M & M Traders, Chilliwhack B.C.
6. Chisick Metals. Winnipeg, Manitoba


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## patnor1011 (Nov 13, 2009)

Holy Jesus! Fingerprinting, bank transfers... It seems that your country do not trust anyone or security measures are little bit over the top. When I was last time in non ferrous metals scrap yard with my copper the lady in cash office asked kindly for my first name and then paid me in cash. I was feeling little bit uneasy as I tought that this is invasion of my privacy but she only asked becouse I was there often enough and she did want to know how to call me. She never asked me for name or identification before.


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## pinwheel (Nov 13, 2009)

In Arizona I have to take finger print, photograph of the person and of the metal, drivers license scan, license plate, make model and year of vehicle. You cannot come in more than one time per day. Anything over $300 must be paid by check only to the address on the drivers license by mail and then mail all this to the police every day. We cannot buy bare wire from the public.

They are so inept though that they cannot even use the data so its mostly a wasted effort.

All of this is because scrap theft was off the charts when prices were high. In my opinion none of this is very effective.


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## AlanInMo (Nov 14, 2009)

A Drivers License on file (at the scrapyard) is all that's needed in Missouri, paid in cash (- 1 1/2%) or by check (full amount) at the larger, better paying yards..


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## Oz (Nov 14, 2009)

pinwheel,

I used to spend a good deal of time in Az and all I can say is WOW!

I still get paid cash for nonferrous metals and I doubt he even remembers my first name. It is no different than buying a loaf of bread at the grocery store. I fear the day I need an ID and fingerprint to be “allowed” to buy that same loaf of bread.


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## pinwheel (Nov 14, 2009)

Indeed. It WILL get much worse.

You assume there will be a loaf of bread to buy in the future. This seems uncertain to some extent in my mind.


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## Anonymous (Nov 14, 2009)

This is just another process to try and keep stupid people safe from themselves. Stealing copper and such 3 people have been killed and 1 maimed within the last year in my area, I should add that I live in a very low populas area. I hate to sound cold hearted, but,
we can not protect everyone from themselves and we should be able to protect ourselves and our property that we worked for from
them.

Some durn a** hole in the ground broke into my shed while I was gone and took a lot of refrigeration tools. 

Sorry to rant, but, just sick of it all.

Jim


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## gold4mike (Nov 18, 2009)

We had a guy die near here a couple of years ago stealing copper. He put his aluminum ladder up against a tower and cut the live wire with loppers that you would use to cut a tree branch. You can't fix stupid!!

One of our rental houses was broken into while vacant, I assume in an effort to steal the copper piping. We had recently replaced the plumbing with pvc so they left it alone. They broke into the house next door and cut the copper pipes, leaving the water running into the basement. It caused much damage to the furnace, water heater, etc.


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## Chumbawamba (Nov 30, 2009)

I can pretty safely say that you can thank the methamphetamine addicts for the more recent spate of draconian recycling laws and regulations that have passed through local and state legislatures. I don't have what they call statistics or evidence in front of me but I would gather that most of the theft of metals for scrapping were being committed by these esteemed tweakers. It was quick and easy money for the most part. It caused lots of problems for me as I've had to deal with theft for the past couple years, to the tune of at least $3K worth of scrap disappearing from around my shop. It serves me right for not keeping everything inside 

Of course, in true style, the bureaucrats jump to the rescue with more laws and regulations that only make life more difficult for the non-douchebags of society. They apparently think the laws already on the books don't work, so they pile on more in a ridiculous attempt to fix problems that are readily solved with simple solutions such as better enforcement of existing laws.

In California we are now required to present ID, get our vehicle license recorded, etc. My local scrapper won't take any scrap metals from anyone unless they are a business. Since I'm a business and was already doing business with them for years nothing has changed for me, but they actually have to turn business away to stay clear of any troubles. And they had to spend money on more computer systems and paperwork for the privilege.

Lets give a big round of applause to the losers who waste away their lives taking drugs that make them feel great, if only temporarily, while making life ever more cumbersome and tedious for the rest of us.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2009)

I agree more laws are not needed since the people that obey the law are not the problem with anything, from drugs, banking and even driving. No one obeys speed and saftey laws, and they are really only enforced when they can ruin someones holiday. Every car accident on the highways near my home are fatal because of lack of enforcement.

Jim


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## Chumbawamba (Nov 30, 2009)

I forgot to add that I think the recent spate of laws is to start tracking what people are making at scrapyards since those transactions are usually all cash. Then they'll start to tax what you make recycling your bottles and cans. Mark my words. All that bureaucracy has to be paid for somehow.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2009)

Chumbawamba said:


> I forgot to add that I think the recent spate of laws is to start tracking what people are making at scrapyards since those transactions are usually all cash. Then they'll start to tax what you make recycling your bottles and cans. Mark my words. All that bureaucracy has to be paid for somehow.



No problem, keep a set of books the Government knows the value of good bookkeeping and so should you.

Free Accounting Software http://www.gnucash.org/


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## Chumbawamba (Dec 1, 2009)

> No problem, keep a set of books the Government knows the value of good bookkeeping and so should you.



Haha, that's pretty funny. No, where the government is concerned, my ledger book reads 0.


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## pinwheel (Feb 20, 2010)

Right, it is meth addicts. It is all pervasive.


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## user 12009 (Jul 9, 2010)

Chumbawamba said:


> I forgot to add that I think the recent spate of laws is to start tracking what people are making at scrapyards since those transactions are usually all cash. Then they'll start to tax what you make recycling your bottles and cans. Mark my words. All that bureaucracy has to be paid for somehow.


Does any one get a 1099 (not sure correct number) at the end of the year from their scrap yard? 

Does your scrap yard keep track of all your transactions during the year for gov't reporting?


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## Chumbawamba (Sep 4, 2010)

Not yet, but I know it'll be coming at some point, probably soon than you expect.

I think the new (for at least a year now) law in California that requires ID and a signature and in some cases a thumb print is a prelude to tracking income from scrap sales so that at some point it can be taxed.

Never underestimate the taxing inclination of the State...it's like meth to tweakers.


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## jeneje (Mar 24, 2011)

Hello All, 
I am going to way in about this, my brother is a superviser for a major scrapyard here in Tennessee. When they sell there copper to the foundry it is bailed, as clean and uncleaned. They get paid the same price either way. The scrap yards use the insulation on the wire to pay less to the scrapper who brings it in - increasing their proffits. Just a note for everybody.

Ken


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## joem (Mar 26, 2011)

for me license plate number and name and address on license


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## jimmy759 (May 5, 2011)

They take down the license plate number and ask you your name and home address but still pay cash to fairly large amounts 3-5 k

I would be more leary about guys bringing in small amounts as opposed to people bring in a couple hundred pounds of stuff
As i have never been to the scrap yard with less then 500lbs of material usually more. 

Also its always neatly sorted bagged and tagged and I weigh everything before I bring it.Except steel!

Biggest issue I ever had was using old McDonald boxes that weigh 1.5 lbs and he wanted to subtract 3lbs for each box. I still got what i wanted.


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## golddigger69 (May 7, 2011)

In Michigan, there are no restrictions on the sale of iron & steel, and you are paid in cash. All other metal sales require a drivers license or govt. issued ID, and a thumb print. Under $50 can be paid in cash, Over $50 must be paid by check.

New USA Tax Law - Be Aware.

Beginning in 2012 all companies will have to issue 1099 tax forms not just to contract workers but to any individual or corporation from which they buy more than $600 in goods or services in a tax year. This includes scrap yards and precious metals buyers. 

If you sell over $600 in a calendar year, the IRS, State, & local taxation authorities WILL know how much you earned, and you MAY owe taxes on it. Many non-precious metal sellers "scrappers" receive government benefits such as food stamps, SSI, cash assistance, or are reqired to pay some form of alimony or child support.

Well....... The free ride is over, you are now a tax paying business man (or woman).

Of course, you can write off your business expences: truck mileage, tools, equipment & supplies used in your "scrapping-salvage-recovery" business. Save your recepts.

Links for further reading: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611
http://www.saveyourrights.com/government-control/obamacare-legislation-mandates-1099s-for-every-and-all-business-transactions-in-excess-of-600/


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## jimdoc (May 8, 2011)

That 1099 deal was supposed to have been repealed in the house and senate and waiting on the president's signature. I don't think we will have to worry about it, both Dem. and Rep. know it was a bad idea.

Jim

http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/1099-repeal-now-what/


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## markmopar (May 16, 2011)

jimdoc said:


> That 1099 deal was supposed to have been repealed in the house and senate and waiting on the president's signature. I don't think we will have to worry about it, both Dem. and Rep. know it was a bad idea.
> 
> Jim
> 
> http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/1099-repeal-now-what/




Obama signed it in April:

http://www.truckinginfo.com/news/news-detail.asp?news_id=73544


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## dub8 (May 16, 2011)

golddigger69 said:


> In Michigan, there are no restrictions on the sale of iron & steel, and you are paid in cash. All other metal sales require a drivers license or govt. issued ID, and a thumb print. Under $50 can be paid in cash, Over $50 must be paid by check.
> 
> New USA Tax Law - Be Aware.
> 
> ...


i dont the thumb print is right may be in some yards i never had ti give my print


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## rusty (Jul 8, 2011)

The scrap yard I usually go to is now playing games with prices quoted over the telephone, then another price on arrival. So it was time to move the show along, this new scrap yard also pays in cash. 

Thought I would share the experience with ya all.

The tally slip from the cashier has a bar code, over at the cash machine you scan the code, sighs your name on the touch screen and the machine pukes out cash. Also takes your picture while your standing there grabbing your cash.


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## TigWiz (Jul 9, 2011)

rusty said:


> The scrap yard I usually go to is now playing games with prices quoted over the telephone, then another price on arrival. So it was time to move the show along, this new scrap yard also pays in cash.
> 
> Thought I would share the experience with ya all.
> 
> The tally slip from the cashier has a bar code, over at the cash machine you scan the code, sighs your name on the touch screen and the machine pukes out cash. Also takes your picture while your standing there grabbing your cash.




Do you have any pictures of your load? I'm curious to see what $1700 worth in scrap looks like.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 9, 2011)

TigWiz said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> > The scrap yard I usually go to is now playing games with prices quoted over the telephone, then another price on arrival. So it was time to move the show along, this new scrap yard also pays in cash.
> ...



Some times it is a trailor load, sometimes it is a couple of barrels full, it depends on what you take into them. Look at his ticket and the weight's and then take a piece in the description and weigh it and you can get an idea on what he took in.


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## rusty (Jul 9, 2011)

TigWiz said:


> rusty said:
> 
> 
> > The scrap yard I usually go to is now playing games with prices quoted over the telephone, then another price on arrival. So it was time to move the show along, this new scrap yard also pays in cash.
> ...



No picture, the load was on the white pick up truck a 3/4 ton so it wasn't much of a load. I could do this once or twice a week without breaking into a sweat.

Zorba aluminum is such from lawn mower engines complete or whole automatic transmissions which are contaminated with steel.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=eda986ad-aff0-49cd-99ea-55c4d038b069

Regards
Rusty


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## silversaddle1 (Jul 9, 2011)

Here's and $8000.00 dollar truck load of scrap.


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## rusty (Jul 9, 2011)

silversaddle1 said:


> Here's and $8000.00 dollar truck load of scrap.



Nice load, it's nice when you can get a payload like that on a 1 ton truck.

Ahh what I would sometimes give to live near a heavily populated industrial area. I have to settle for low grade farm scrap along with automobiles to eek out a dollar.

Regards
Rusty


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## jimdoc (Jul 9, 2011)

rusty said:


> Ahh what I would sometimes give to live near a heavily populated industrial area. I have to settle for low grade farm scrap along with automobiles to eek out a dollar.
> Regards
> Rusty



The competition in a heavily populated industrial area will surprise you. They are even pulling up to the yard in their Mercedes. Everybody is scrapping.

Jim


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## silversaddle1 (Jul 9, 2011)

rusty said:


> silversaddle1 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's and $8000.00 dollar truck load of scrap.
> ...



Well not quite a 1 ton truck, it's a Dodge 5500 and it has a gvwr of 19,600 pounds. We are just over 20,000 pounds with this load. Lots of servers, telecom bridges, and 2 gaylords packed full of networking cards and copper cable. 

Hey, I still cut up farm equipment too!


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