# C.M. Hoke, the animated series?



## NickPerry (Apr 27, 2014)

Good day! 

it seems everyone here holds Hoke's precious metal refining book in high regard. so I have been reading it.
but I have a hard time absorbing information via reading large blocks of texts.

so I was thinking I might be able to help myself, other people out, if I record myself narrating it & drawing visual aids to go along with it.
doing so will help everything stick a lot better in my own head, and if I post it in a video, it could help people who are the same as me.

however, I have a few concerns.

copyright : even though I do not intend to make any profit off this endeavor, I still want to make sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. but since I can't ask C.M. Hoke for permission since she, sadly, is no longer with us. how would I get permission? do I need permission?

Visual aids : although I can convey a lot of information with stick figures and other crude drawings, I still would like to include photo's of how different things she talks about look like, but since my arsenal of chemicals & materials if fairly small, I would like to ask you guys to donate images that I might need (I'll ask for them when I need them)
since I don't want to use images from Google (again, for copyright reasons)

Time : as some of you know, I'm also trying to start up a mini-business, so I'm semi busy throughout the day, trying to track down used stuff or scrapping the stuff I have already acquired (feeling more like a scrap metal guy then a refiner at the moment... but I digress )
so if I do do this, then the times between uploads will be kind of slow, but I will try to complete 1 chapter a week.

any questions? comments? concerns? rude opinions?


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## solar_plasma (Apr 27, 2014)

> ...donate images...


I think this is a hurdle, that prevents you from publishing too unproved material. When you have made those pictures by yourself, there is a chance at least, that you talk about things you have knowlegde about. Calm down, get out of the chaos phase and set focus, - do it by drawing if you want, but concentrate on the basics. No one needs tutorials by someone who has no clue.


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## NickPerry (Apr 28, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> > ...donate images...
> 
> 
> I think this is a hurdle, that prevents you from publishing too unproved material. When you have made those pictures by yourself, there is a chance at least, that you talk about things you have knowlegde about. Calm down, get out of the chaos phase and set focus, - do it by drawing if you want, but concentrate on the basics. No one needs tutorials by someone who has no clue.



I wouldn't be making a tutorial, i would simply be reading Hoke word by word, like an audio book but with images for the more visual learners.

but you brought up a point I also meant to ask, but forgot when I posted that, was that I would like (if you guys are willing) to check over each clip before I upload to the public. the images would simply be if Hoke mentions something like 'Hydrochloric acid' I would show a beaker of HCL (I know, it looks like water) but it gives a good sense of what is being discussed.

and it was just an Idea that I thought would help out the forum, since you guys have helped me out so much already.

but I agree that Ideally i should use images I've taken myself, that way I have an even better understanding of whats going on. but the chance of me having mis-followed the steps and therefore adding a photo that is incorrect is much higher then if I use an image sourced from knowledgeable people like yourselves.
(at least, that's my thinking)


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## solar_plasma (Apr 28, 2014)

Do not think, you read it once or twice and have understood all details. It seems easy stuff, because she wrote it in a manner that is easily accessable, but the art behind the written words is quite complex. Each time I reread passages parallelic to my practical learning, I understand more. The more I understand, the more I get aware of how much I do not understand or how much information I still cannot process as a matter of lacking experience. I had to do with chemistry since I was a child, with about 7 I bought my first chemicals, at the age of 12 I had an extra room I used as a lab. Since a little over one year I read the forum and its treasures. In ten years I might or might not become an expert on a few subjects of refining. In one year you will know what I mean.

So, don't try to make up a new Hoke, don't join the marathon before you even can walk. It ist just unrealistic.


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## Ian_B (Apr 28, 2014)

If you don't fully understand the source material as it is and are having a hard time reading it, how can you expect to be able to read it properly and show the proper techniques and images to tie into the audio you record? Would you hire a person who was born blind to talk about photography technique's?

This is by no means a small project and for someone who has mentioned that they have a bad habit of procrastinating as well as saying they have ADHD I am worried that you are spreading yourself to thin between trying to start up a scrap gold refining business to live off of and re-inventing the wheel with methods of recovering base metals from computers etc. and straight up just learning the base material. 

We already have a wheel, there's no need to try and re-invent it. 

Learn the source material first, become knowledgeable enough to understand the concepts put forth in Hoke's book as well as the other source material before attempting anything on this scale.

If it's just a problem with the reading itself there is a number of "pdf audio readers" available online, and while I have not used any a quick google search did come up with a number of results. here is one http://www.naturalreaders.com/

Your going to burn yourself out if you put too much on your plate.


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## solar_plasma (Apr 28, 2014)

well said.

With adhd you have to develope self-discipline not to let you get disturbed by your own thoughts and ideas and every fly that comes around. Write down your ideas (not necessarily all of them here!), filter what to do first and focalize on that. After some time you might become a quite interesting member in discussions because of your special view.


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## bmgold2 (Apr 28, 2014)

Others may disagree with my thought but I think it is a good idea. Even without the visual drawings and pictures, just an audio version of Hoke's book sounds great. Having a real person read the book is usually better than a computer generated voice. 

I also don't think you NEED to fully understand the processes described in order to do what you are proposing. So long as you can read and pronounce the words, it should be basically the same as reading the printed book. Maybe better since someone could listen to it as they drive or while falling asleep.


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## solar_plasma (Apr 28, 2014)

Manga style refining...hoo....ray.. :roll: what next? Spiderman for Nobel Peace Price? :shock: Get serious, folks. And from my deepest heart, I disagree, you can't teach resonsibly, and this I AM an expert to say, anything hazardous like chemistry, you don't understand by yourself....period!


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## bmgold2 (Apr 28, 2014)

I can't believe nobody else thinks this is a good idea. As I see it, Nick is offering to make a video of himself reading Hoke's book and wants to include pictures and possibly animations of what is being talked about in that book. In the process of doing this, he would be forced to read the book front to back and also find pictures that show what is being talked about. This would NOT be an actual tutorial but basically an audio/video version of the book. I imagine he would learn a lot by doing this and others could benefit from his work.

From the comments I'm reading, Nick is being told not to do it or at least DON'T SHARE YOUR HARD WORK WITH US. Is that really what we want? I still think it is a good idea and could end up being a very useful addition to the information available on precious metal refining. If shared with the group, the "pros" would have a chance to correct anything that Nick might get wrong. Maybe the negative comments are more about sharing this outside of the group???

Anyway, using Google's advanced image search, you can click on _usage rights - free to use, share or modify, even commercially_ to possibly find images you could legally use. You have my permission to use any pictures I posted that might be of use even though most of them have a copyright notice on them. That is just the default on Flickr and I left them that way. If needed/wanted, I'll change the usage rights on any you want to use.

Hopefully somebody else thinks this is a good idea. If not, you could still do it for your own benefit.


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## 4metals (Apr 28, 2014)

Hoke has done an amazing job in writing a book for a non-technical reader wanting to refine their material. If you can follow her instructions it can go a long way to making you a self reliant refiner. 

That being said, the different sources of precious metal containing wastes available today to scrappers far exceeds the sources she refers to in her work. Simply said, more things in the pot, more that can go wrong. If you are having trouble following her writings, and factoring in there is more potential today for screw ups because of the metals involved in todays mix, maybe you should take up another hobby. 

Chemistry has a way of getting out of control in runaway reactions, if the refining techniques are difficult to understand in a plainly written book designed for a non technical person, maybe you should re-consider.


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## kurtak (Apr 29, 2014)

4metals said:


> Hoke has done an amazing job in writing a book for a non-technical reader wanting to refine their material. If you can follow her instructions it can go a long way to making you a self reliant refiner.
> 
> That being said, the different sources of precious metal containing wastes available today to scrappers far exceeds the sources she refers to in her work. Simply said, more things in the pot, more that can go wrong. If you are having trouble following her writings, and factoring in there is more potential today for screw ups because of the metals involved in todays mix, maybe you should take up another hobby.
> 
> Chemistry has a way of getting out of control in runaway reactions, if the refining techniques are difficult to understand in a plainly written book designed for a non technical person, maybe you should re-consider.



Yep - I have to agree

Kurt


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 29, 2014)

My 2 cents:

I've always thought the value of the Hoke book has been greatly over-emphasized on this forum. To me, it's just one of many good sources of information for the refiner. An advantage of it, though, is that it is free by download, unlike most of the other books. Another advantage is that it helps show newbies that refining is much more complex than they thought it was. However, insisting that it is "The Refiner's Bible" is ridiculous, since it only covers only a very small percentage of what the modern refiner needs to know. I wonder how many people we have lost who were hammered into reading the 362 page Hoke book, erroneously thinking it would answer all their questions. 

Maybe my feelings about it stem from the fact that I didn't know it even existed until I had already been in the business 7 or 8 years. When I did get a copy and read it thoroughly, I found very little in it that was helpful, at least to me. I now have an excellent library of books and the Hoke book is one that I only refer to 3 or 4 times a year.

Don't get me wrong. I think everyone should read it, along with everything else, but I don't think it should be required reading unless one's main interest is jewelry wastes. Even then, it's only one of many good sources of information. For e-scrap, it isn't that valuable, except for maybe the chapter on acquaintance experiments. Even though I do jewelry scrap different than Harold (with success, I might add), Harold's forum summaries on working jeweler's wastes are great, in that they always work, are quite concise and complete, and are improvements over what is found in Hoke. The information on this forum is far more valuable for escrap and everything else. The Loewen book ($30) is better for escrap, even though the title is, "Small Scale Refining of Jeweler's Wastes." Loewen gets into many other things besides jeweler's wastes.

The Hoke book is what it is, an excellent, very easy to understand, somewhat out-of-date, 74 year old treatise on refining precious metals jeweler's waste, with a smattering of some other stuff. Very little on silver. Essentially nothing on escrap. Good on some of the basics. Good to have in your arsenal of information, along with tons of other information now available in this modern age.

Before our Gold Refining Forum started, most information was held as trade secrets and the Hoke book held a more valuable spot than it does now. The GRF opened Pandora's box and now everything you ever wanted to know is available, for free, from many different sources.


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## butcher (Apr 29, 2014)

With respect to your opinion GSP.

I see this differently than you do, I have found Hokes book an excellent source of information, not only for jewelery scrap, but for many different materials, from her book a beginner can gain an understanding of the principles of recovery and refining, can gain an understanding of how metals react in solution,learn the basics of recovery and refining and testing of metals in solution, I feel her book is an extremely valuable tool, not the only tool to learning, but in my opinion one of the best, I agree there are many other books and resources, but for beginning this art I still recommend reading Hokes book.

I have never liked it when members the forum referred to Hokes book as being a bible, there is only one bible in my opinion, and no other book can compare to it. 

No one book is the answer to everything, but some books can help lead you or guide you in the proper direction.


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## 4metals (Apr 29, 2014)

I can understand both Butcher's and GSP's points. I guess it all comes down to how you have come to the refining field. If you've come to the field after being trained and educated as a chemist, her book is a casual read as you will be familiar with many if not all of the principles. If you have come to the refining field without any chemical background then it can help get you on the same page with a lot of discussions going on here on the forum. 

I have taught people to refine who did not even have any idea about the basic rule of always adding acid to water, let alone chemical reactions. Those types are always a bit more challenging to come up with scenarios they can relate to to learn the process required. So if those guys could have spent time reading Hoke my job would be easier but then there are clients who are so far past what Hoke teaches, to make it required reading would be an insult. 

So I can see both sides of this issue. 

I think we all agree that if you can get yourself to the point where you understand the discussions going on here on the forum, you will have put yourself in a position that years ago was not even attainable without a targeted college education and field experience. That is what is so amazing about this forum.


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## NickPerry (Apr 30, 2014)

wowzers, seems like I have sparked a bit of a conversation (which is good!)

I normally reply to each person individually, but seeing as there are so many posts, i think it might be easier on readers if I just reply to some points that have been made.



> don't try to make up a new Hoke, don't join the marathon before you even can walk. It ist just unrealistic



I just wanted to read it word by word & essentially give high res images to replace her pixelated ones. reading words out loud shouldn't change the meaning should it?



> having a hard time reading it



you misunderstood me, I didn't mean I found it difficult to understand, or that the words are hard to read, I basically meant that it's a very 'dry' read, like reading a textbook, while it's interesting, it doesn't pull you in, so you (well, I..) end up reading a paragraph without taking any of it in. because that's simply not the way I (and a lot of other people) learn, we are all unique human beings, and as unique humans, we all learn things differently.



> ADHD



I don't see ADHD as a learning disorder, it's simply a different way of taking in information in the world around us. in some ways it can be a hindrance, but in other ways it can be a major asset. 

while I could try and force myself to try and think of things the way other do, it would not be very practical, since it would be like trying to use a screw driver for a job that requires a hammer, sure you can do it. but it's not very efficient. and because I think of things differently I can often bring new Idea's to the table.

lastly. don't forget, I've been living with this my whole life. I know i might seem to be trying to do everything at once to you guys. but there is a method to my madness.
and while I agree that my way makes for a slower start, it usually works well for me in the end.



> Manga style refining...hoo....ray.. :roll:



I was thinking more along the lines of a cross between the youtubers 'minutephysics' and 'Extra Credits'
also, I'm not teaching. simply narrating.



> I've always thought the value of the Hoke book has been greatly over-emphasized on this forum



the nice thing, it's a tried and true source that everyone is familiar with. where as a lot of other sources (especially Youtube) will often post incorrect, and sometimes even downright dangerous methods.

but yes, it's simply a starting point, not a 'be-all/end-all' book.


*********************

I know I skipped a lot but I'm trying to keep my posts short.

since I'll be recording & making a slideshow/video regardless for myself I'll post one chapter (once I get to it, in ~ a week or 2) as a private youtube video.
if you guys like it, I'll post it publicly. If not, I'll remove it, and not bother you guys with it again.
simple.


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## solar_plasma (Apr 30, 2014)

*like*


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## g_axelsson (Apr 30, 2014)

Very interesting discussion indeed.

I must say that I'm in line with GSP on this. I came to this area with some chemistry and a lot physics knowledge in my baggage. I have had Hoke downloaded since it was originally scanned but only browsed the book occasionally. I have even bought a hardback print but still haven't read it all yet... planning to do it this year though.
Hoke is good for getting basic refining practices and getting started on refining without the need of going deeper into the processes of why certain things happens. But when you want to get a detailed knowledge of how a certain process is working you have to search for other sources. I usually find the why in chemical text books or from other members of the forum.
Even Harold that talks so much about reading and following Hoke have told us how he treats some processes and they sometimes diverge from how Hoke teaches. I would follow Harolds advice any day.

A sad thing about the forum is that in the beginning there was a great deal sharing of ideas and development of new processes. Of course, then everything was fresh. Today there is more stagnation, the questions and answers are the same than for a year ago. Once in a while there is a small nugget to be found but it's become rarer by the years. I fully understand that our most experienced members is getting bored by this and leaves or just visits less often. As a consequence the quality of the discussions is going down.
I don't know what to do about it, I have only made the observation.

This rambling was written by Göran


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## Harold_V (Jun 19, 2014)

The point of Hoke's book is VERY simple. It details how refining takes place. Once you understand what she teaches, you'll be able to apply the knowledge gained to most any type of material you'll encounter. It's the basics that she teaches, which appears to be the very thing that many hope to circumvent. 

I strongly disagree with GSP in this regard. Had I not found Hoke's book, I'd have never learned the art of refining. Two years of searching had lead me nowhere. I did not have the luxury of having been employed by someone who provided a mentor. I also did not have the luxury of having anyone with whom to discuss the process. The only person that could have helped me laughed in my face and told me I would never achieve my goal. 

It was Hoke's book, and her book alone, that allowed me to gain enough knowledge to have a firm understanding of other texts, most often written such that they make no sense to anyone but a seasoned refiner, or a chemistry major. 

If a person, ANY person, is not familiar with refining and its terminology, Hoke's book is pretty much mandatory reading. Where else will you gain the knowledge? If you think you can come to this forum and ask questions about basic refining, you're not going to be well received, and may be banned for your efforts. 

Hoke's book is the very tool that will open the doors for further learning. That applies even to those trained in chemistry. Some of the operations that allow gold to be separated from silver and base metals may not be so obvious, even to those well educated. 

My step brother-in-law is a professor of chemistry in one of the Midwest colleges. He openly admitted that I knew far more about gold and how it is processed than he did. He could easily explain why it worked, but he had no mechanical knowledge of the procedures. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jun 19, 2014)

We're talking about different eras here Harold. In the one case there was no Internet search engine available, no bulletin boards, no internet fora. Back then things were truly like a secret squirrel society in relation to more than just refining. As such finding out that someone could get a book like Hoke's would be an absolute godsend to somebody trying to learn to refine. However just because it was the first at that point in time doesn't make it the only resource or the best today. It is one book out of many resources, and as has been pointed out, it naturally cannot have neither moved with the times, or be up to date with regards to modern resources.

I must say though that has also been pointed out, it's still a sensible thing to promote people reading it.


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## 4metals (Jun 19, 2014)

It is kind of funny that the members who are trained in the chemical sciences really have no problem with members who choose to read Hoke's book. It's the ones who really should be reading it who sorely lack what the book teaches. If you fit into that category do you suppose that watching it on a video will somehow make it more clear. 

If there is one thing that I have learned in life it is that everything worth learning in life is worth the effort put in to learning it correctly. I don't know that would come from an animated series any easier than it comes from a book.


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## Harold_V (Jun 20, 2014)

spaceships said:


> We're talking about different eras here Harold. In the one case there was no Internet search engine available, no bulletin boards, no internet fora. Back then things were truly like a secret squirrel society in relation to more than just refining. As such finding out that someone could get a book like Hoke's would be an absolute godsend to somebody trying to learn to refine. However just because it was the first at that point in time doesn't make it the only resource or the best today.


I've often been at odds with you and your attitude, and this is a good example of why that is. 

Now that you've chosen to voice your opinion, the next requirement for you is to provide evidence of what you've proposed. I want the names of these resources you've suggested, as well as links to sites that provide basics in the art of refining. I fully expect it won't be forthcoming. 

I've commented endlessly on the reason why those who wish to refine should read Hoke's book. To my knowledge it is the *soul source* of _basic knowledge _in regards to refining. The information contained within is timeless. It works, and works well, and when understood (something that appears to have evaded you) it provides for processing all manner of scrap material, even though it is not mentioned in the book. It does that because it provides the basics, which are key to understanding the entire field of refining. To even remotely hint at the idea that it isn't required reading gives me cause to want you banned from this board (you are, in my opinion, highly disruptive, a quality I do not admire), as I'm more than tired of you and your attitude, and can honestly say that you, sir, are the one person who has single handedly given me cause to take a long vacation from the board. I find you dull and boorish and prefer to not have to deal with you. Should I make the decision to return on a permanent basis, rest assured, you and I are not going to get along (assuming you're still here). 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jun 23, 2014)

Dear Harold

My sincere apologies for not returning to the forum to reply to your post sooner. I was away at Royal Ascot this weekend, a great day's racing and fortunately only a £20 loss overall in the course of the day.

To respond to your position that Hoke is the sole source of basic knowledge in regards to refining:

I would firstly recommend "Small scale refining of jewellers wastes" by Roland Loewen. This is designed for the layman and explained in terms that are readily understandable and relevant. It was printed in 1995, and there are various methods of getting the book.

Secondly I would table the following publication"How to Smelt your Gold and Silver" by Hank Chapman Jr. Again published in 1996 so fairly up to date but more importantly- it's written well for the layman. 

Resource and links for both books can be searched effectively from any good search engine. 

Kind Regards

Jonathan.

Editted for spelling


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## solar_plasma (Jun 24, 2014)

Loewen: 540$ ...questions?

I like Ammen's (50$), because there are some other processes explained and additional information about assaying. But the basics are explained only in general. Without Hoke and the forum I would not have gained much knowledge about avoiding and solving problems.

Hoke is free and gives everyone new the possibility to learn everything needed. Hoke is well known in the forum and gives a shared base to communicate problems when help is needed. I would compare it to university life again: Your professor gives a list of books you have to read, so he and the students talk the same language. The students will have to add their own choice of books to their personal list to be able to do their individual homeworks.


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## Harold_V (Jun 24, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> Hoke is free and gives everyone new the possibility to learn everything needed. Hoke is well known in the forum and gives a shared base to communicate problems when help is needed.


There's nothing I can add to this that would convey the message any better. Thanks, solar_plasma, for your timely contribution. 

I was the first reader to sign on to this board. I've seen it grow from nothing more than a dream of the owner to it's current state, what ever it may be. In all that time, the most common problem I've witnessed, time and again, is readers asking mundane (stupid, really) questions about refining----questions that would have been answered by simply reading Hoke's book. While there are Johnny-come-lately publications that may be procured, I have little doubt that they are based on what Hoke taught, although I confess that I have not read any part of these documents, nor do I care to. I am no longer involved in refining, and that's by choice. I am not seeking knowledge, therefore I have little need to be further enlightened. 

The bottom line on this issue is that Hoke, in her book, has created a language that is common to the bulk of the readers of this board. Those who wish to converse with other readers are well served to read and digest its contents. If they wish to add to their arsenal books written by others, all the better, but to even remotely suggest that Hoke's book isn't adequate for today's circumstances I view as someone trying to undermine the work we've accomplished on this board, work that has taken considerable time from those who have contributed so freely. You might understand that I am offended by such action, and do not intend to stand by idly while views are expressed that are contrary to those that have driven this board for years. We do not need the help of those who may not agree with its operation. 

I'll make myself perfectly clear where this subject is concerned. 

I do not intend to tolerate ANYONE who suggests that reading Hoke isn't a requirement. On this board, it is, and will remain so so long as I have a say in how it is operated. We have survived several years of helping others to succeed, some of whom have gone on to found and operate successfully their own refining services. If we were not doing something right, that most likely would not be the case. 

If readers of any stripe prefer to not read Hoke, so be it, but do not promote that concept on this board. For that I will make this promise. I will ban you straight away, with no questions asked. If there are any questions, or doubts, simply voice the opinion that Hoke's book is not mandatory reading. I'll take it from there. 

Read Hoke, reading until it makes sense. If it does not make sense, you have not dedicated enough time to study. 

Harold

I am not here regularly these days, but I fully intend to keep watch on this thread, and act according to my commitment.


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