# Dental gold seems to be not gold ...



## Renaldas

Just won the lot with dental scrap, the seller guaranteed me before bidding, that all the items are gold alloy and all are cleaned from cement and tooth tissue. I got the lot, tested all the items in it with SnCl2, and it seems only half of them contain gold, other contain palladium/platinum or have no precious metals at all (you saw some items from this lot in Help Needed section, where I asked you about SnCl2 colors). 
I opened the case and offered the seller to buy from him only gold containing items, clean from tissues and cement, weight them, and pay a price, proportional to its weight/all lot weight ratio. The seller asked me to ship the item back, and he refunded me all the price. 
What are the sanctions for a patient, should I leave him a negative feedback, or there are some more serious sanctions. He may try to sell the same item again, if there are no serious sanctions, searching for a stupid buyer, who will not check it such carefully ...
What do you advice me to do in such a case? I do not want do bid for a such item one more time and waste my time and money, and it is possible, if the seller tryies to sell it, and I do not recognize the item, or it will be divided in to small parts. 

The item is 300457917470


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## user 12009

You do have cause for concern, but let the buyer beware.

He did say "Private sale no warranty and return policy!" and he refunded your euros. 

What I would do is let ebay know what happened but go no further. Then keep track of his sales for a while. If it pops back up again then report him. Some of those pieces looked like very unique. What I also would have done is taken a photo of the good and another of the bad. If you see any of the bad in an auction time to report as fraud.


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## goldsilverpro

Personally, with no exception, I would never bid on dental material unless it were yellow. Never! The odds of white dental material containing no PMs is too great. Since I know of no case of copper being used for dental appliances, if it is yellow throughout, it contains gold. The only way of your being fooled by this would be if there was a yellow colored tarnish on the surface. 

I've followed your other posts on this material, along with the photos. I must admit that I don't have extensive experience with stannous chloride. I just didn't need it that often. Although I have used it hundreds of times, it was mainly for checking to make sure that all of the gold had been dropped out of a solution or to test for the presence of gold in an unknown. I also used it occasionally for Pd and Pt. However, I remember that I never relied on any test that had been sitting for more than a few minutes. If the solution is fresh and if too much acid wasn't used, the color reaction was almost instantaneous. About the only exception is Pd, which will normally assume a blue-green color after a few minutes.


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## nickvc

goldsilverpro said:


> Personally, I would never bid on dental material unless it were yellow. Never!


As usual excellent advice from GSP.


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## Renaldas

cyberdan said:


> You do have cause for concern, but let the buyer beware.
> 
> He did say "Private sale no warranty and return policy!" and he refunded your euros.
> 
> What I would do is let ebay know what happened but go no further. Then keep track of his sales for a while. If it pops back up again then report him. Some of those pieces looked like very unique. What I also would have done is taken a photo of the good and another of the bad. If you see any of the bad in an auction time to report as fraud.



I was buying golden alloy, the seller guarenteed me all the items in the lot contain gold. I think, it is not very difficult to test all the items and have a lot only of golden items. I thought the seller checked all the items, and know what he is selling. Being a dentist I know most of dental materials, but knowing eBay policy, and paying via PayPal, I risked, because I know it is possible to get a refund. If the seller would not guaranteed it is all gold, and I agreed to buy, there will be another situation.


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## Renaldas

goldsilverpro said:


> Personally, with no exception, I would never bid on dental material unless it were yellow. Never! The odds of white dental material containing no PMs is too great. Since I know of no case of copper being used for dental appliances, if it is yellow throughout, it contains gold. The only way of your being fooled by this would be if there was a yellow colored tarnish on the surface.
> 
> I've followed your other posts on this material, along with the photos. I must admit that I don't have extensive experience with stannous chloride. I just didn't need it that often. Although I have used it hundreds of times, it was mainly for checking to make sure that all of the gold had been dropped out of a solution or to test for the presence of gold in an unknown. I also used it occasionally for Pd and Pt. However, I remember that I never relied on any test that had been sitting for more than a few minutes. If the solution is fresh and if too much acid wasn't used, the color reaction was almost instantaneous. About the only exception is Pd, which will normally assume a blue-green color after a few minutes.



I approximated there is 30-35% of gold in these metals and put maximum bid according to this. There is very low probability that all the items, if they contain gold, will contain it less as this percent. I want to remind you one more time, that seller stated ALL the items in the lot contain gold. Of course, I was in doubt, but decided to risk.


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## goldenchild

See, this is a big problem with ebay that I've brought up before. Sellers often have no clue what they are selling. In this case he guaranteed all the scrap to be gold but they turned out not to be. Its hard to say if the seller really thought it was all gold, was guessing it was gold, or was just trying to find a sucker. 

You could give the seller a negative feedback but to me that would be kind of messed up since he gave you your money back. I'd say give a neutral and explain why if you really want people to see what happened. Something like "Scrap not 100% gold but refuned money". As far as monitoring his sales :roll: ... its really not your job. If someone were to look at your neutral feedback they would see that they should be weary about buying from this seller. If you do monitor his sales, you might as well try to monitor all the scams and bad deals that happen on ebay.


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## Renaldas

goldenchild said:


> See, this is a big problem with ebay that I've brought up before. Sellers often have no clue what they are selling. In this case he guaranteed all the scrap to be gold but they turned out not to be. Its hard to say if the seller really thought it was all gold, was guessing it was gold, or was just trying to find a sucker.
> 
> You could give the seller a negative feedback but to me that would be kind of messed up since he gave you your money back. I'd say give a neutral and explain why if you really want people to see what happened. Something like "Scrap not 100% gold but refuned money". As far as monitoring his sales :roll: ... its really not your job. If someone were to look at your neutral feedback they would see that they should be weary about buying from this seller. If you do monitor his sales, you might as well try to monitor all the scams and bad deals that happen on ebay.



This is not my problem, if seller doesnt know what is he selling. Paying via PayPal I have eBay Buyer Protection, and there is no ways for seller to avoid money refund. As I remember, he asked me to pay via bank transfer, and I refused.


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## goldenchild

Renaldas said:


> This is not my problem, if seller doesnt know what is he selling. Paying via PayPal I have eBay Buyer Protection, and there is no ways for seller to avoid money refund. As I remember, he asked me to pay via bank transfer, and I refused.



So it sounds like he may have been a scammer if he was asking you to pay outside of ebay. You're right though. In my experience ebay is pretty good about getting your money back but in the meantime your money is tied up and you waste time keeping tabs on it. This time and money is better spent on buying a refining the real deal.


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## joem

I don't buy gold off ebay anymore. Two 14 k rings guaranteed by the seller as solid, but as soon as I paid he was no longer a member. I did get the rings and they were plated. Also a watch again said was solid 10k even said money will be returned if not solid, of course is was not so I returned the watch and never got my money back.

the best quote is from Bender:
" Hey. I can guarantee anything"

So I only buy and sell gold in person.


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## Renaldas

joem said:


> I don't buy gold off ebay anymore. Two 14 k rings guaranteed by the seller as solid, but as soon as I paid he was no longer a member. I did get the rings and they were plated. Also a watch again said was solid 10k even said money will be returned if not solid, of course is was not so I returned the watch and never got my money back.
> 
> the best quote is from Bender:
> " Hey. I can guarantee anything"
> 
> So I only buy and sell gold in person.



Why dont you opened a case and asked for a refund, if you paid via PayPal?


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## joem

Renaldas said:


> joem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't buy gold off ebay anymore. Two 14 k rings guaranteed by the seller as solid, but as soon as I paid he was no longer a member. I did get the rings and they were plated. Also a watch again said was solid 10k even said money will be returned if not solid, of course is was not so I returned the watch and never got my money back.
> 
> the best quote is from Bender:
> " Hey. I can guarantee anything"
> 
> So I only buy and sell gold in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why dont you opened a case and asked for a refund, if you paid via PayPal?
Click to expand...


I did. No seller. No Member. Time ran out. No result.
Like I say "It's all learning"


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## Renaldas

joem said:


> Renaldas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't buy gold off ebay anymore. Two 14 k rings guaranteed by the seller as solid, but as soon as I paid he was no longer a member. I did get the rings and they were plated. Also a watch again said was solid 10k even said money will be returned if not solid, of course is was not so I returned the watch and never got my money back.
> 
> the best quote is from Bender:
> " Hey. I can guarantee anything"
> 
> So I only buy and sell gold in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why dont you opened a case and asked for a refund, if you paid via PayPal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did. No seller. No Member. Time ran out. No result.
> Like I say "It's all learning"
Click to expand...


But money are reserved by PayPal, even if the seller is no more registered. If you notice the seller is no member, ask for a refund immediatly. As I understand, you get it, if you dont miss the 45 days dealine.


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## GrailSeeker

> So it sounds like he may have been a scammer if he was asking you to pay outside of ebay.



WRONG. Just because ebay strongly advises to use PayPal, doesn't mean he can't use any other method. He could as well have been trying to save on fees. PayPal is great, is just not necessary.


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## goldenchild

GrailSeeker said:


> So it sounds like he may have been a scammer if he was asking you to pay outside of ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG. Just because ebay strongly advises to use PayPal, doesn't mean he can't use any other method. He could as well have been trying to save on fees. PayPal is great, is just not necessary.
Click to expand...


I never said sellers cant use other methods of payment. I was just making the point that scammers will ofter try to collect payment outside of paypal. The auction was fishy too.


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## hfywc

sorry guys...i have to hijack this thread for a moment...i have a pressing matter at hand.

i just bought a dental appliance which the seller claims as 18k(not yellow color). it passed the boiling nitric test so i got bold and proceeded with ar. however the solution didn't drop any gold. i performed a similar procedure but this time with an obvious yellow dental gold. this last procedure was successful in dropping gold.

i told the seller about this and said will gladly refund me if i can send the the item intact but as you all know the i already dissolved it in ar. if you're in my shoes what will you do?

here's the link >>>>>>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p2761.l1259&rt=nc&nma=true&item=250722775557&si=FSU1tSixTuPLXIhf9Ypn%252Fd2kPDk%253D&viewitem=

thanks,
alan


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## Barren Realms 007

If you can't get it to drop. use some zinc to drop it and start over or put a piece of copper in it and let the copper cement the PM's out.


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## hfywc

hi barren,

i included some photos for reference...i don't think there's gold in the dental scrap in question. as you can see from the kind of precipitate it produced. the dental scrap in question produced the same color thoughout both in ar and after adding sodium sulfite whereas the other produced dark red/brown ar.


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## Barren Realms 007

I think you might be correct in your assumption. Did you test this with stannous? If it test's positive put a copper pipe or plate in the solution and see if anything drops out in a couple of days.


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## hfywc

i dont have stannous...but if there's gold, there should be some gold precipitate considering i dissolved 4grams of material in ar...


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## Barren Realms 007

hfywc said:


> i dont have stannous...but if there's gold, there should be some gold precipitate considering i dissolved 4grams of material in ar...



Just because you dissolved it dosen't mean it will come back out. Get you some 95/5 plumbers solder and some HCL and make you some stannous. It is easy to do and will save you a lot of guessing, money and time.


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## hfywc

you're right barren...stannous it is....


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## hfywc

hi barren and all.

here is the results....the swab on the left is from the one in question and on the right is from the light green solution where i successfully precipitated gold. what do you think?


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## Barren Realms 007

The one on the left from the dental gold looks to be barren (pardon the pun) or any PM's like you thought it was. The one on the right still looks like it has some values in it. Probably because you still might have nitric in your solution that redissolved your gold. Either get you some urea and get the nitric out or evaporate the solution down to a syrup and add HCL, repeat this 3 times and then drop your gold. I use urea I find it faster to complete the job, warm your solution up befoe you use it. Or you can add some more SMB and let the gold dissolve till the nitric is gone but I don't recomend that because you can overload you solution with SMB and cause other problems.

Hope that helps.


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## hfywc

i already killed the excess nitric on the second one. i only used minimal nitric and i added another dental scrap piece which didn't get totally dissolved while heating the solution.
what i suspect is there is platinum in the solution based on the color of the test. i already ordered ammonium chloride but since it 's a long weekend holidays, it's gonna take a while before i receive it.

this concludes this verification process...thanks to you barren and to all for your patience and help.

Happy turkey day to all who celebrates it!

alan


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