# Why such small batches???



## gpoon (Mar 29, 2017)

Guys total newbie here and ready to lift some gold leaf of some ram fingers. I've read a lot of posts, tutorials, and seen a ton of videos but it seems everybody processes gold in small batches 100 fingers, a pound of fingers etc. Why is this? wouldn't it be more economical to smash it out in one go?
I want to get an AP stockpot going for my 3 kg of fingers is there a reason not to bang this out in on go?

And while i got your attention, I can't get nitric acid, so ima go the bleach method.
So in a nutshell:
- 3:1 Hydrochloric Acid(approx 30%): Hydrogen peroxide (3-5%) just covering the fingers leave for 2 days (agitate in between)
- Filter through coffee filter collect the gold and rinse with water and allow to dry. (If not keeping AP neutralise with baking soda and dispose of responsibly) 
- In GLASS jar/ beaker/ anything GLASS, place gold leaf add enough Hydrocholric acid to cover gold leaf and a bit more. I have read that you should add water but i also read its not necessary cause bleach has a lot of water. Slowly add bleach a bit at a time until gold is dissolved (avoiding inhaling gases with a respirator or by staying the hell away from it).
- Filter through coffee filter and keep the liquid gold.
- Add as many grams of SMB as you expect gold, mix and leave overnight to drop.
- Filter and melt the brown goodness.
- Brag about having a gold nugget!

Would be great to get corrections or extra tips.
Many thanks.


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## kurtak (Mar 29, 2017)

gpoon said:


> Guys total newbie here and ready to lift some gold leaf of some ram fingers. I've read a lot of posts, tutorials, and seen a ton of videos but it seems everybody processes gold in small batches 100 fingers, a pound of fingers etc. Why is this? wouldn't it be more economical to smash it out in one go?
> I want to get an AP stockpot going for my 3 kg of fingers is there a reason not to bang this out in on go?



Per the underlined - there is no reason at all why you can't do it all in one go - it's a matter of how large "you" want to set up to operate :!: 

There a plenty of members here that work on larger (some much larger) then the "chase a few grams" scale 

Most of the "chase a few grams" people are doing it as a "hobby" & have some other source of income - AND - there is nothing wrong with being the "chase a few grams" hobby guy

Kurt


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## anachronism (Mar 29, 2017)

kurtak said:


> Most of the "chase a few grams" people are doing it as a "hobby" & have some other source of income - AND - there is nothing wrong with being the "chase a few grams" hobby guy
> 
> Kurt



I fully agree with this. Just because you're doing lots of gold doesn't make you any better than those doing it as a hobby. It just makes you different.


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## gpoon (Mar 29, 2017)

Thanks guys, I just thought maybe it was an issue with the chemicals not scaling so well or something. And I certainly wasn't having a go at anyone doing it small scale.

Good to know!


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## 4metals (Mar 29, 2017)

Truth of the matter is it takes more skill to make a high purity gold button than it does to get a large batch to high purity. So in a sense, it is great practice for when you get the bigger lots.


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## justinhcase (Mar 29, 2017)

even if you have a hole tunn of material to process you are going to want to start small.
There are a number of questions you will need to answer before you go forward.
Which of the available methods are going to be more effective for you with what you have in hand,what return can you expect?
Starting small means your mistakes will be small and the solution easy,make a mistake on a large lot will have you up to your neck in sludge for weeks and put value in a hole spectrum of places and compounds that are awkward to recover from..


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## denim (Mar 29, 2017)

Make sure you dispose of your waste acids properly. See http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=10539 . Proper treatment of acids before disposal is of paramount importance! Please be safe, and protect the environment.


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## rickbb (Mar 29, 2017)

Also forget about the respirator, it won't protect you. The cartridge type is for low level, limited and occasional exposure and they will be depleted quickly, (seconds), if you get exposed to a full on "cloud". 

Too many people new to this think you can just put one on and stick your face down over the digestion vessel and will be OK, you won't. You could die, or damage your lungs so badly you will be disabled for life. The gasses aren't just nasty, they are toxic poison. You should treat them that way.

Not trying to scare you, (OK maybe a little), this can all be done very safely. But you have to do it with the knowledge that you could make a mistake and do some harm to yourself or someone else nearby.

Get yourself a proper fume hood, and a secure, separate place to do it in. Especially if you want to do more than "small batches". Seriously.


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## gpoon (Mar 29, 2017)

rickbb said:


> Also forget about the respirator, it won't protect you. The cartridge type is for low level, limited and occasional exposure and they will be depleted quickly, (seconds), if you get exposed to a full on "cloud".
> 
> Get yourself a proper fume hood, and a secure, separate place to do it in. Especially if you want to do more than "small batches". Seriously.



I plan on doing this outside and plan on having not having enough exposure to any gasses to warrant a respirator, but was planning on using one just as a precautionary measure.


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## upcyclist (Mar 29, 2017)

justinhcase said:


> even if you have a hole tunn of material to process you are going to want to start small.
> There are a number of questions you will need to answer before you go forward.
> Which of the available methods are going to be more effective for you with what you have in hand,what return can you expect?
> Starting small means your mistakes will be small and the solution easy,make a mistake on a large lot will have you up to your neck in sludge for weeks and put value in a hole spectrum of places and compounds that are awkward to recover from..


This. I was hoping someone would say it. 

On an ongoing basis, plan to scale your operation to match your incoming feedstock rate and your time. For example, even if you don't get much e-scrap in at a time, if your free days are few and far between, you'll want to do larger batches.

But while you learn, stay small. The trick is to do a large enough batch (once you're done with familiarization experiments) that you can actually see your gold drop. 10 pins is too small.


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## kernels (Mar 29, 2017)

Yep, upcyclist and justinhcase are spot on.

Many many threads start with someone doing it for the first time complaining that what they are seeing is not what happened in the youtube video. Fingers are probably the most reliable scrap to process - meaning that there is not that much that can go wrong as long as you stick to the basics. 

Don't do the 1:3 peroxide to Hydrochloric thing, cover the fingers in HCl, add a air bubbler and give it a 'splash' of peroxide. The H2O2 is only a kickstarter.


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## Tndavid (Mar 29, 2017)

I like my small scale operation. Keeps waste stream down. :wink: Not saying if I had a kilo of karat that I would not run it cause that definitely isn't the case. Lol. Besides, it's not the size of your boat, it's how you row it!!!


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## justinhcase (Mar 29, 2017)

Tndavid said:


> Besides, it's not the size of your boat, it's how you row it!!!


Not according to some sources.?lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I91DJZKRxs


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## Tndavid (Mar 29, 2017)

justinhcase said:


> Tndavid said:
> 
> 
> > Besides, it's not the size of your boat, it's how you row it!!!
> ...


Ouch  Lol.


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## Shark (Mar 29, 2017)

There is another reason some do small batch's. Some are just better off financially than others. For those with less money to play with they can start small and work their way up to bigger batch's or better materials. I am one of those who dislike spending money on my hobbies until I have a fair grasp of what is involved to maintain it. It can be a long road to get there when working in small lot's but it sure help's when you get to working on those where you have a fair sum of money involved.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Mar 29, 2017)

Shark said:


> There is another reason some do small batch's. Some are just better off financially than others. For those with less money to play with they can start small and work their way up to bigger batch's or better materials. I am one of those who dislike spending money on my hobbies until I have a fair grasp of what is involved to maintain it. It can be a long road to get there when working in small lot's but it sure help's when you get to working on those where you have a fair sum of money involved.



Yes! Perfect explanation from another perspective!
I had to start off small. 30 dollars, a bottle of muriatic, peroxide, and some coffee pots from goodwill got me going. 

Doing it small, and slowly, you can soon get to a point where the money you make can go into not only scrap, but proper labware as well. Then eventually, you get all your gear and it goes right back to scrap or chemicals. If you have been buying scrap at a decent price, then it wont take too terribly long to get to that point. By the time you get there, you will be proficient enough to feel comfortable working with several kinds of scrap.

Nothing wrong going slow and steady with small lots.


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## gpoon (Mar 29, 2017)

I guess my definition of big batch is like 3kg of fingers but i wouldn't think the up front costs would differ too much from a setup made to do half a kg right? Speaking stictly about the AP process, the chemicals would be about the same coz you'd have to buy the minimum amount of Hydrogen peroxide and HCL a couple of cheap buckets and a couple of cheap pickle jars, coffee filers and a colander or sieve and thats that.


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## anachronism (Mar 30, 2017)

gpoon said:


> I guess my definition of big batch is like 3kg of fingers but i wouldn't think the up front costs would differ too much from a setup made to do half a kg right? Speaking stictly about the AP process, the chemicals would be about the same coz you'd have to buy the minimum amount of Hydrogen peroxide and HCL a couple of cheap buckets and a couple of cheap pickle jars, coffee filers and a colander or sieve and thats that.



If you're going to set up to do 3Kg batches then you need to be buying lab glassware. 1l and 2l beakers at the very least. Buy once, cry once!


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## gpoon (Mar 30, 2017)

anachronism said:


> If you're going to set up to do 3Kg batches then you need to be buying lab glassware. 1l and 2l beakers at the very least. Buy once, cry once!



I was just going to use big glass jars and a standard pyrex 1L measuring cup for measuring the chemicals.
Not that im trying to be cheap, its just, while i'm doing big batches, it will be fairly infrequently 2 maybe 3 times a year. 
I can't justify buying glassware when i can use existing household items.


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## anachronism (Mar 30, 2017)

gpoon said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > If you're going to set up to do 3Kg batches then you need to be buying lab glassware. 1l and 2l beakers at the very least. Buy once, cry once!
> ...



OK whilst I hear what you're saying please allow me to point out that the first time you break a household item and lose gold you'll wish you had bought the right stuff in the first place.  

Saving money usually ends up costing you money as the vast majority of guys on here will corroborate. 

Jon


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## gpoon (Mar 30, 2017)

anachronism said:


> OK whilst I hear what you're saying please allow me to point out that the first time you break a household item and lose gold you'll wish you had bought the right stuff in the first place.
> 
> Saving money usually ends up costing you money as the vast majority of guys on here will corroborate.
> 
> Jon



Ahhhhhh i seee..... its matter of equipment integrity rather than trying to look professional.
Excellent tip.....might have to checkout the Bay of E's then.
Many thanks on the caution, and thats to all.


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## Lou (Mar 30, 2017)

anachronism said:


> gpoon said:
> 
> 
> > anachronism said:
> ...



What Jon said.


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## kurtak (Mar 30, 2017)

Lou said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > gpoon said:
> ...



I agree with Jon & Lou

Though canning jars & pyrex are made to take (some) heat they are NOT made to take the heat like real lab glass - I can assure you that jars & pyrex WILL crack/break/shatter - sooner - or - later --- & that can/will happen just from the heat produced from reactions taking place - much let alone "adding" heat

Kurt


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## rickbb (Mar 30, 2017)

gpoon said:


> rickbb said:
> 
> 
> > Also forget about the respirator, it won't protect you. The cartridge type is for low level, limited and occasional exposure and they will be depleted quickly, (seconds), if you get exposed to a full on "cloud".
> ...



Make sure your health and life insurance are up to date. That respirator will give you a false sense of security that is just not there. And hopefully you don't have any neighbors, curious pets or children that will get down wind of your operation. (In which case make sure your liability insurance is up to date.)


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## patnor1011 (Mar 30, 2017)

Standard measuring pyrex jug can explode and believe me you will literally s**t yourself. I was drying about 2oz of gold powder using heat gun. I then simply poured powder in another container and about 2 seconds after I did that while still holding pyrex jug in my hand it exploded. Explosion sent glass flying all over the room all what reamined intact was handle I was holding in my hand. 2 seconds earlier and it would cost me over 2000 euro so I got lucky that time. Never again.


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## justinhcase (Mar 30, 2017)

I had trained in several different disciplines that required controlled movement and deliberate action.
I knew nothing until my entire environment was littered with very delicate glass items all about 3mm thick.
At £20 to £500 a piece you learn a hole new definition of contemplation before action. 
I take days now instead of moments and it is still only half right.
gutting when you crack a 5000ml beaker.
:lol:


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## Topher_osAUrus (Mar 30, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> Standard measuring pyrex jug can explode and believe me you will literally s**t yourself. I was drying about 2oz of gold powder using heat gun. I then simply poured powder in another container and about 2 seconds after I did that while still holding pyrex jug in my hand it exploded. Explosion sent glass flying all over the room all what reamined intact was handle I was holding in my hand. 2 seconds earlier and it would cost me over 2000 euro so I got lucky that time. Never again.



Terrifying!

Was it one of the new ones that are the soda-lime glass, or was it one of the old (but good) borosilicate measuring cups?

Ive heard of the soda-lime "pyrex" breaking often, rarely with the older stuff though. You can tell the difference by the hue of the glass. Borosilicate is clear, soda lime has a blueish tint to it.

I ponied up and got real lab glass after a coffee pot cracked when I had a few pentium pro's in it. Thankfully I heard the crack, and was able to siphon the pregnant liquor off to another vessel. Soon as I did, I picked it up and the bottom fell out into my corningware dish. Would have been a tough lesson to learn, had I not had my bases covered already.


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## Shark (Mar 30, 2017)

I have to agree with using the best equipment you can. When working with large batch's it can be even more important money wise. On small batch's I have used coffee pots, flower vases and even wine glasses. When you have over $1000 in gold in solution those cheap short cuts become even harder on the nerves. When trying to be extra cautious with the cheap glassware something will almost always go wrong. Even the slightest "clink" of two pieces bumping together can be nerve rattling.


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## snoman701 (Mar 30, 2017)

Glass jars can take the heat...what they can't take is the thermal shock. Think about it...when canning you put them in boiling water....much hotter than most anything we do, but very uniform heat. When you heat a coffee pot, it's hot at the bottom and often cool at the top. That differential causes stresses. Those stresses can turn in to a mess. When you have something like a processor in there, likely lagging behind a bit, it's contact point makes even more stress. 

That's my experience as a glass blower talking. Reiterating what others have said.

Buy a pack of six 150 ml tall form borosilicate beakers. They are cheap new.

Now go to your jeweler and get a piece of gold....at least 1 gram. Fine gold....not karat scrap. You could also ask to buy a chunk here.

Practice! 

Don't start on e scrap until you've got the drop down.

This is experience and frustration giving advice. The above purchases will be the best $85 you spend in your refining. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## snoman701 (Mar 30, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> Standard measuring pyrex jug can explode and believe me you will literally s**t yourself. I was drying about 2oz of gold powder using heat gun. I then simply poured powder in another container and about 2 seconds after I did that while still holding pyrex jug in my hand it exploded. Explosion sent glass flying all over the room all what reamined intact was handle I was holding in my hand. 2 seconds earlier and it would cost me over 2000 euro so I got lucky that time. Never again.


Isn't it funny how it's always right after it could have been ugly that you get the warning? I mean, not ALWAYS...but a lot of the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## patnor1011 (Mar 31, 2017)

Well that was pure luck but it served me a lesson. I was finding pea sized pieces of glass everywhere for weeks. They were kind of uniformed size. I still use this kind of jars for some things but have since bought proper lab glassware which was surprisingly not that expensive anyway.


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## anachronism (Mar 31, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> Well that was pure luck but it served me a lesson. I was finding pea sized pieces of glass everywhere for weeks. They were kind of uniformed size. I still use this kind of jars for some things but have since bought proper lab glassware which was surprisingly not that expensive anyway.



I know this may seem a little strange but if you look at it as a "cost of doing business" then it feels better.


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## haveagojoe (Mar 31, 2017)

Another reason for doing small batches is that the amount of fumes produced is more manageable


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## upcyclist (Mar 31, 2017)

Looking over all these replies, I am again amazed and thankful for the great crowd of refiners we have here. Lots of people willing to let others learn from our mistakes. 

And, we have that rare new guy asking questions who actually listens to the answers!

Kudos to all. :G


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## gpoon (Mar 31, 2017)

upcyclist said:


> Looking over all these replies, I am again amazed and thankful for the great crowd of refiners we have here. Lots of people willing to let others learn from our mistakes.
> 
> Kudos to all. :G


That is exactly what I was going to say.

Some of the comments seem slightly critical but it's obviously out of concern.

And you guys will be happy to know I bought 2 600ml beakers and 500ml conical flask and a couple of glass stiring rods while I was at it  only cost me $35.

And I really do appreciate all the helpful replies and comments. You guys have made the mistakes so others don't have to.


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## anachronism (Mar 31, 2017)

gpoon said:


> And you guys will be happy to know I bought 2 600ml beakers and 500ml conical flask and a couple of glass stiring rods while I was at it  only cost me $35.



Game on!


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## Geo (Mar 31, 2017)

It takes roughly the same amount of time and effort to refine a couple of grams as it does and ounce at a time. Working with small batches as a beginner is just good practice. After all the processes that you plan to do has been mastered, there is no reason to do small amounts at a time unless that is all you have.


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## justinhcase (Mar 31, 2017)

Geo said:


> It takes roughly the same amount of time and effort to refine a couple of grams as it does and ounce at a time. Working with small batches as a beginner is just good practice. After all the processes that you plan to do has been mastered, there is no reason to do small amounts at a time unless that is all you have.


I find it very helpful to run test lot's of most industrial scrap.
I have fond that components that look just about identical can have quite varied property's.
Particularly when trying to pacify alloys.
It dose not take much of a variance in alloy to necessitate a slower digestion.
Like wise if I am not completely certain about the amount of fuming or waste solution.
also when I have a tole client ,It is always good to check they are happy with my return before processing a full lot.even then I had one very memorable individual who I went out of my way to develop a process for.
On the small run he was happy and every thing was dandy,come the main run I returned to the point place exactly what the test had shown.
Guess what?he all of a sudden decided there should have been twice as much.
I so wish I had pulled out at that point, even with clients it is always good to start on small batches.


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## gpoon (Apr 1, 2017)

So i just started my first batch of AP and lucky i started with a smaller batch as suggested because as soon as i added the peroxide to my acid and fingers bucket it turned red!!.
I have read that it could have been something that is added to the HCL that i got at Bunnings. 

What now?? Whats it doing to my gold?


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## anachronism (Apr 1, 2017)

Case in point. Just today. 

Bought a new vacuum pump with a regulator I didn't know well. 1 litre of heavily pregnant solution in it and I bumped the dial as I walked past. Five minutes later the buchner flask imploded. I had used a cheap unit because my usual glass didn't have the correct hose fittings. It's a good job that my cabinet has a PP base catch pan inside because there was over 100g of gold in the liquor.

Think losses- I messed up today but fortunately the right gear was there to save my butt. 

Look closely at the pic and tell me what's missing. 8)


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## UncleBenBen (Apr 1, 2017)

The bottom of the flask?

Good save with the catch pan! I would've cried for you!


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## Tndavid (Apr 2, 2017)

Ouch!


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## kernels (Apr 2, 2017)

Double Ouch!


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## kernels (Apr 2, 2017)

gpoon said:


> So i just started my first batch of AP and lucky i started with a smaller batch as suggested because as soon as i added the peroxide to my acid and fingers bucket it turned red!!.
> I have read that it could have been something that is added to the HCL that i got at Bunnings.
> 
> What now?? Whats it doing to my gold?



I started out with some Bunnings (or Mitre10) HCl, didn't have any problems with it. The color was more likely something in your feedstock ? How much H2O2 were you adding ? Don't panic too early, Au is pretty much impossible to destroy, it will always be somewhere in your recovery or refining system as either a solid or liquid.


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## gpoon (Apr 2, 2017)

I found out that that brand of hcl contains 1% titanium oxide which might explain the red/orange color. I only added about 30 ml of H202.
It hasn't eaten any of the gold away but a handful of fingers looked like they've turned a dull grey, could just be fingers that didn't contain gold are my thoughts.


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## rickbb (Apr 4, 2017)

Well, AP is not supposed to do anything to the gold, just dissolve the copper underneath it. The fact it turned the gold to a different color at all is disconcerting.

One of the chemist will have to chime in on if it's the titanium oxide doing it, or something else going on.


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## gpoon (Apr 4, 2017)

rickbb said:


> Well, AP is not supposed to do anything to the gold, just dissolve the copper underneath it. The fact it turned the gold to a different color at all is disconcerting.
> 
> One of the chemist will have to chime in on if it's the titanium oxide doing it, or something else going on.



Its a smallish batch so i'm not overly concerned. whats i have noticed tho is that in the morning the solution will have the expected green colour at the top but when i agitate it it'll turn purple due to the red and green mixing.

So far 3 days but no flakes have loosened yet, but i'll give it a few more days.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 4, 2017)

If you don't have a bubbler then you need patience, give it a week or two at least.

The green layer at the top is where oxygen have converted the CuCl into CuCl2, that is what dissolves the copper. The rest of the solution is lacking oxygen so nothing happens until you stir it or you wait for the oxygen to diffuse down which takes quite a while. Stirring speeds it up.

Göran


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## Deano (Apr 5, 2017)

The cheap HCl from Bunnings etc contains titanium salts, it has previously been used to wash heavy mineral sands and will dissolve some titanium during this process.

It is sold as a 28% solution rather than the usual 32% tech grade.

Contact with stannous salts in solution will give coloration ranging from red to purple depending on the relative proportions of each metal and what other metal salts may be in solution as well as the operating temperature.

Deano


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## gpoon (Apr 5, 2017)

> If you don't have a bubbler then you need patience, give it a week or two at least.


Yep, looks like good things come to those who wait.



> The cheap HCl from Bunnings etc contains titanium salts, it has previously been used to wash heavy mineral sands and will dissolve some titanium during this process.
> 
> It is sold as a 28% solution rather than the usual 32% tech grade.
> 
> Contact with stannous salts in solution will give coloration ranging from red to purple depending on the relative proportions of each metal and what other metal salts may be in solution as well as the operating



I noticed nowhere in your reply did you mention "this will ruin your gold". So thats a win in my book 

Thanks for the replies people, i'm just happy to see how this goes and learn from it. Its so exciting ha!


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