# My very first Noob Nug



## Acid_Bath76 (May 16, 2011)

I recently bought a furnace for metal casting as well as for making some artsy type stuff. I make all sorts of little things using the greensand technique, and just had to go ahead with a batch of scrap. My materials consisted of a bunch of processed fingers from RAM and video cards. I probably had a large softball size load of fingers after the AP wash. Since supplies are not an issue, I went ahead and gave it a run through the furnace with a flux. What I have is below! I realize the gold is pretty dirty, and will need to be refined further, but it's just neat to see all this in action. All the slag is being saved, and when I have enough I'll crush it into a very fine powder and process for values. 
I've been thinking about different techniques to clean a dirty nugget, such as the one I have. There is certainly a little copper in there. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!!


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## 4metals (May 16, 2011)

One technique to clean up the metal would be to melt it with no flux and an oxidizing flame if possible, (in a crucible this is not possible so just get it as hot as you can) when it is molten drop small chunks of potassium nitrate on the surface. This will oxidize base metals and clean up the melt.The oxidized metal will collect on the side wall of the melt dish a pinch of borax will help it to collect in one spot. It will have no effect on precious metals other than removing the base metals.


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## Acid_Bath76 (May 18, 2011)

would sodium nitrate work as well? Or does it have to be Potassium Nitrate?


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## plamenppp (May 18, 2011)

Use H2SO4 - 10% as a start. Be careful when you mix it with water. Heat it well first. Use protection gloves and glasses. Cover all your body. Do this several times. If this does not work use 20%.
You can do it also with HNO3 and HCl but do not dilute it.


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## Harold_V (May 18, 2011)

plamenppp said:


> Use H2SO4 - 10% as a start. Be careful when you mix it with water. Heat it well first. Use protection gloves and glasses. Cover all your body. Do this several times. If this does not work use 20%.
> You can do it also with HNO3 and HCl but do not dilute it.


These comments are somewhat confusing. When sulfuric acid is added to water, heat is liberated. To pour to hot water is asking for problems that can be avoided. The colder the water, the less the chance of creating a steam explosion (where you end up wearing the acid). I would recommend one NEVER heat the components, and to pour the acid to water sparingly, stirring briskly to dissipate the resulting heat. 

HNO3 (nitric acid) is generally best applied dilute. Some talk of he hydronium ion comes to mind. 

Edit: I understand the purpose to be to improve the appearance of the resulting button. What it really needs is to be properly refined. No amount of cleaning will make it look good. Gold content is way too low. 

Read Hoke for a better understanding. 

Harold


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## Acid_Bath76 (May 18, 2011)

With all this in mind, it sounds like it would be best to just start all over with this dirty nugget. A long wash in HCL/Peroxide, and then taking the contents and adding to AR or Poor Man's AR. I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. It was a quick run, and the results show that you can't bypass proven techniques and expect quality results. Back to square one At least I'm not dealing with pounds of scrap this time around!


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## Harold_V (May 19, 2011)

Acid_Bath76 said:


> With all this in mind, it sounds like it would be best to just start all over with this dirty nugget. A long wash in HCL/Peroxide, and then taking the contents and adding to AR or Poor Man's AR. I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. It was a quick run, and the results show that you can't bypass proven techniques and expect quality results. Back to square one At least I'm not dealing with pounds of scrap this time around!


No amount of washing is going to help once you've melted. That's just a waste of time. 
I expect that the gold content is quite low---considering you melted pretty much everything. Gold content on e scrap isn't even 1%---so unless I don't understand what you've done, the course of action that will work, now, is to dissolve the button in dilute nitric acid. You can accelerate dissolution by melting and pouring the molten metal in water, which will create what I call cornflakes (I coined that term, as it relates to the end product, years ago ). The corn flakes present a large surface area to acid and dissolve rapidly. You should be able to successfully dissolve them even if the contain up to 40% gold, although I have no idea how that would be. 

The gold remaining, assuming it's less than 20%, won't look like gold--it will manifest itself as black powder in the solution. It can be very fluffy, as well as very finely divided, and if there's tin present and the gold is exceedingly sparse, you're likely to end up with pink or purple material in solution. Key to success then, because it won't filter worth a damn, is to allow the remaining solids to settle well (until there is no purple or black in suspension), then siphon off the solution. You would then add tap water and stir well, allowing the material to settle well once again. You're trying to get rid of dissolved metals in this operation, so you'd do this until the fluid is clear of color. At no time would it be necessary to filter, although the final rinse should end up in a filter, for your next operation would be to incinerate the remaining solids. You're not finished with eliminating things yet. We can talk about that later, assuming you get this far. 

The solution you siphon most likely will be blue. It may or may not contain traces of silver, so it should be tested for silver before discarding---and tested with stannous to insure that there's no platinum or palladium present. If the solution is sky blue, most likely there's nothing of value present, but any shade of green or brown often indicates the presence of something of value. Testing is key to success. Learn how to test, and how to identify metals in solution. 

If you have aspirations of learning how to refine, I advise you to put a full stop to making uninformed decisions and start reading. Use processes that are known to work, and use them until you are totally familiar with refining, so that you are comfortable in making decisions that are viable. There's nothing that wastes your time more than being clever and doing things you think are wise when they're counterproductive. Leave the experimenting to those that have credentials, or until you have a firm knowledge of refining. 

In other words, follow convention---because it works. 

Harold

edit:
backtracking a little, here, I see your comment about HCl and peroxide. You most likely would achieve success with that method, too, in place of nitric, but creating cornflakes is in your best interest, as it's a slow process otherwise. You'll have to seek help from those with that experience if that be the case. All of my refining experiences came with the use of commercially prepared acids, and none of the work-around processes.


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## plamenppp (May 20, 2011)

plamenppp said:


> Use H2SO4 - 10% as a start. Be careful when you mix it with water. Heat it well first. Use protection gloves and glasses. Cover all your body. Do this several times. If this does not work use 20%.
> You can do it also with HNO3 and HCl but do not dilute it.




I meant heat well the button first. My mistake ...


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## Acid_Bath76 (May 20, 2011)

I feel like I just got slapped in the back of the head. Point taken I will continue reading and give what you mentioned a shot.... verbatim.


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## dtectr (May 20, 2011)

Acid_Bath76 said:


> I feel like I just got slapped in the back of the head. Point taken I will continue reading and give what you mentioned a shot.... verbatim.


Wise man. now. 8)


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## Acid_Bath76 (May 21, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Acid_Bath76 said:
> 
> 
> > With all this in mind, it sounds like it would be best to just start all over with this dirty nugget. A long wash in HCL/Peroxide, and then taking the contents and adding to AR or Poor Man's AR. I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. It was a quick run, and the results show that you can't bypass proven techniques and expect quality results. Back to square one At least I'm not dealing with pounds of scrap this time around!
> ...



The HCL/Peroxide really didn't do anything past the surface. The process you mentioned concerning the production on of a "cornflake" really is the way to go. Tomorrow I'll melt it down and pour it into a metal five gallon bucket. We'll see how the cornflake comes out.


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## Acid_Bath76 (Jul 22, 2011)

So it's been a while. I spent some time reading, which I should have done to begin with. Thanks for everyone's help along the way. Oh, and Harold... thank you very much. Now onto the next batch!


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## seawolf (Jul 23, 2011)

Looks much better this time. What was the weight? Reading Hoke is the best start then read Harold V's posts for tried and proven steps to get the best results.
Mark


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## nickvc (Jul 23, 2011)

Acid bath just one comment on your later photos, I hope you don't heat your glassware directly on that ring! If you do and you think that button was a mess wait until the glass breaks.
Always put beakers on heat pads , steel sheet anything to avoid direct heat which will cause a certain catastrophe.


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## Anonymous (Jul 23, 2011)

nickvc said:


> I hope you don't heat your glassware directly on that ring! If you do and you think that button was a mess wait until the glass breaks.


It's ok Nick.That is a single sided hotplate.The element sits below an iron top.
I think it's hysterical that,Acid_bath had the foresight to make sure we knew that the gas can in the back was full of water,not gas.That is awesome.


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## Acid_Bath76 (Jul 23, 2011)

Woops, I forgot to mention the weight. It came in at 3.5g. Some was dissolved in the two HCL baths. I kept all the solutions, and tested a final time before cleaning up. I just looked at the HCL and knew something wasn't right. The HCL had a golden hue to it. Stannous usually tells the truth. Sure enough, there was a little gold dissolved in there. The powders haven't been added to the total weight. If anything, it might add another tenth of a gram... maybe. Anyhow, it's been an awesome education! Expensive too. Would have saved a lot of money and time, had I just taken it slow.


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## Harold_V (Jul 24, 2011)

Acid_Bath76 said:


> Woops, I forgot to mention the weight. It came in at 3.5g. Some was dissolved in the two HCL baths. I kept all the solutions, and tested a final time before cleaning up. I just looked at the HCL and knew something wasn't right. The HCL had a golden hue to it. Stannous usually tells the truth. Sure enough, there was a little gold dissolved in there. The powders haven't been added to the total weight. If anything, it might add another tenth of a gram... maybe. Anyhow, it's been an awesome education! Expensive too. Would have saved a lot of money and time, had I just taken it slow.


I commend you for taking functional advice instead of copping an attitude, as some do! :roll: 
You have reaped the reward you worked hard to obtain. Well done! You can be justly proud. 

Harold


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## dtectr (Jul 24, 2011)

Acid_Bath76 said:


> I recently bought a furnace for metal casting as well as for making some artsy type stuff. I make all sorts of little things using the greensand technique, and just had to go ahead with a batch of scrap. My materials consisted of a bunch of processed fingers from RAM and video cards. I probably had a large softball size load of fingers after the AP wash. Since supplies are not an issue, I went ahead and gave it a run through the furnace with a flux. What I have is below! I realize the gold is pretty dirty, and will need to be refined further, but it's just neat to see all this in action. All the slag is being saved, and when I have enough I'll crush it into a very fine powder and process for values.
> I've been thinking about different techniques to clean a dirty nugget, such as the one I have. There is certainly a little copper in there. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!!


When you say "processed fingers", do you mean the leftover plastic & copper left AFTER the foils have been removed? 
dtectr

EdIT: I just noticed the original dates on this thread & it seems I missed the boat, somewhat. I am still curious, but its no big issue.


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## Acid_Bath76 (Jul 25, 2011)

I wish I had kept better notes in my lab manual. Anyone reading it would have said it was the diary of an idiot. That first run with the ram/video cards/and who know what else, was fraught with errors and carelessness. It was sloppy work. There was a nice collection of foils on that first batch, but I think I included not only the foils but some of the fibers that the foils separated from into the large crucible. I'm sure I did other stuff that didn't make any sense and contributed to my trashy results. This probably isn't the detailed answer you were looking for. Sorry.


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## philddreamer (Jul 25, 2011)

You've gained valuable experience, next time you'll be more patience & will follow thru paying more attention to the details.

Good job! 8) 

Phil


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## Acid_Bath76 (Jul 25, 2011)

philddreamer said:


> You've gained valuable experience, next time you'll be more patience & will follow thru paying more attention to the details.
> 
> Good job! 8)
> 
> Phil


thanks Phil... feels good to get it right!


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## dtectr (Jul 25, 2011)

Acid_Bath76 said:


> I wish I had kept better notes in my lab manual. Anyone reading it would have said it was the diary of an idiot. That first run with the ram/video cards/and who know what else, was fraught with errors and carelessness. It was sloppy work. There was a nice collection of foils on that first batch, but I think I included not only the foils but some of the fibers that the foils separated from into the large crucible. I'm sure I did other stuff that didn't make any sense and contributed to my trashy results. This probably isn't the detailed answer you were looking for. Sorry.


 No, thats fine - remember the old poem about Baseball - "Its not whether you win or lose, but HOW you play the game."?

In this field the "_How_ you play the game" will determine _whether_ you win or lose, & it seems you've already learned that.

Great attitude - welcome in!


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## Geo (Jul 25, 2011)

a bit of hard learned advise.when heating gold bearing solutions you would be better off using a plastic catch pan,just in case you glassware breaks.i put any gold bearing solutions that are in glass containers into another plastic tub,even when storing.you never know when gremlims might break your stuff.


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