# Need help with chemistry of Ore



## Arrowood (Jul 27, 2011)

I moved to the mountains of southern California about 3 months ago and found myself in gold country. I've never prospected for gold before, but when I looking at the USGS map of this area, I found 33 abandoned gold mines within a 2 mile radius, so I figured I would do some gold research and then go see what I could find. 

I live in a place called Sand Canyon, which is very dry. The sand here sparkles with pyrite and also contains a lot of black sand. The well water is very "hard" (about 1000 ppm) and the owners told me it contains a lot of arsenic and many other minerals. The neighbors told me that there was a lot of clay here too, and I read that gold is often found with clay because clay had a negative charge and gold was positive (so they attract each other). The obvious thing to do I figured was look for the clay deposits to find gold. I discovered that most of the plants grew on the clay deposits because the clay holds most of the available water. It didn't take me long to find a clay deposit with alternating layers of clay and pyrite/gold,. less than an hour as a matter of fact! Lol

To make a long story short, I don't have a lot of money for mining equipment or even chemicals and lab equipment, so I need to make as much of the equipment and chemicals as I can from the abundance of natural minerals here, and recycle what ever I can. I've been a member of this forum for about 4 days, and I've spent most of that time reading message threads. I'm impressed by all the knowledge and experience displayed here, and I'm sure you can offer some good advice! I'm slowing getting a grasp of what needs to be done to recover and refine precious metals, and I know its a lot of work, but I'm having a blast already. 

Here is what I've done so far. 

1) Collected 5 gals of the clay/sand ore and sifted it thru a window screen to remove the debris, and then sifted it thru a 200 mesh screen to separate the clay from the fine sand. More of the black sand and pyrite stayed in the larger particle size portion, but the clay also contains lots of "sparkle".

2) I bought some calcium hydroxide to flocculate the minerals out of the water to make it safer to drink and reduce the total dissolved solids, and I washed the clay and sand to try and reduce some of the carbonates, oxides, and sufides in the ore, and I separate the rest of the clay from the sand particle portion (which I mixed with the clay I got from sifting).

3) I read about chlorine leaching before I found this forum so I bought some hypochlorite and Muriatic acid and tried to leach a sample of the clay, but I didnt really understand what I was doing. My solution ended up yellow like gold chloride but I think it is mostly iron. I intend to make some Stannous Chloride on august 1st when I get paid and make my monthly trip to town for supplies.

Now heres the part I need help with.

4) I was playing around with the black sand/pyrite and added some sodium hydroxide to the water in a sample, and I got an immediate exothermic reaction that made my plastic cup very hot! What caused that? A reaction with the sulfur or the iron maybe? More importantly, did the reaction produce any chemicals I can use for recovery or refining?

5) I also tried mixing hypochlorite with the black sand/pyrite and a deep purple solution formed. Any idea what caused that? Maybe a reaction with manganese? I read that permanganate was a deep purple color and I'm sure their is mangnese here since it is one of the minerals in the water.
If not permanganate, what else could it be?, and is there some way I can use that chemical for recovery or refining precious metals? (or any metal for that matter). 

Any insights or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Sorry I don't have an assay or other test results to share. I'm a rank beginner and I cant afford to spend much money until I can at least test the ore with Stannous Cl. to get an idea of how much gold is present,. if any.


Thanks! ~Ray


----------



## Arrowood (Jul 28, 2011)

I did some more experiments with the purple solution I got when I added Hypochlorite to my black sand/pyrite. I discovered when I diluted the solution with water, that it separates into a brown precipitate that sinks to the bottom, and a purple precipitate that floats on the surface, leaving a dark yellow solution. I wish I knew what these precipitates are. 

I suspect the yellow solution left over may be iron of some kind. The purple precipitate may be permanganate, but what is the brown precipitate,.. sulfur or another form of iron? What ever they are, this seems like a very easy way to separate some chemicals from black sand/pyrite. :|


----------



## Arrowood (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh,.. I forgot to add that the first experiments I did on the purple solution was changing the pH. When I added HCl to make it acid, I got a brown precipitate, but no precipitate when I added NaOH to make it basic. Then I took the basic purple solution and diluted it with water,.. thats when it separated into the sinking and floating precipitates mentioned above. Details,.. Lol


----------



## Lino1406 (Jul 29, 2011)

Purple - could be cobalt too


----------



## Arrowood (Jul 29, 2011)

Are there any tests I can do to tell if it's cobalt or not? I started another sample digesting in Sulfuric acid to remove all the metals except lead and tungsten. Then I was going to try adding the hypochlorite to the sample to see if I got the purple solution again. If I don't, then that would probably indicate it was permanganate I figured. It might also help me eliminate some of the possibilities for the other precipitates too. 

Dang this chemistry is tough to figure out,. seems its mostly a process of elimination. Lol


----------



## rusty (Jul 29, 2011)

Arrowood said:


> Are there any tests I can do to tell if it's cobalt or not? I started another sample digesting in Sulfuric acid to remove all the metals except lead and tungsten. Then I was going to try adding the hypochlorite to the sample to see if I got the purple solution again. If I don't, then that would probably indicate it was permanganate I figured. It might also help me eliminate some of the possibilities for the other precipitates too.
> 
> Dang this chemistry is tough to figure out,. seems its mostly a process of elimination. Lol



grab a copy of C.W. Ammens fist edition, he touches basis on various ore's, in the meantime enjoy a copy of "You Can Smelt Too" there is a section on identifying metals.


----------



## Arrowood (Jul 29, 2011)

Great! Thanks Rusty!


----------



## Arrowood (Jul 29, 2011)

I did some more tests.

Test #1 The ore sample I digested in hot concentrated sulfuric acid yesterday ate up EVERYTHING in the sample leaving only a bunch of silver grey flakes in the bottom of my container. I took some of the flakes and added hypochlorite to them,. and got no purple solution,. leading me to believe the purple solution was indeed permanganate and I had dissolved all the manganese in the acid . I saved the yellow acid solution for more tests later. 

Test #2 I dropped a piece of copper pipe in the yellow solution from the earlier attempt at HCL/Cl digestion for gold, and got a brown precipitate, and when I poured off the cleared solution my copper pipe had turned black. I left the copper pipe out in the sun today, and the upper side of the pipe exposed to the light turned purple. I think this means I had some silver chloride in my solution.

I read the paper Rusty provided this morning too, and the chemical tests are EXACTLY the kind of information I was looking for. Now I need to get all the chemicals and equipment needed to perform the tests so I will know for sure what the elements and minerals are in my ore. Thanks again Rusty!


----------



## Geo (Jul 30, 2011)

be careful adding bleach to sulfuric acid as it will create chlorine gas which is quite deadly.have you bought a gold pan?its hard to prospect without one.use the pan and break up a piece of clay in it and wash till all the gray is out.you should have black sand with other minerals left.only the top layer of clay will have any gold as clay is a physical barrier that keeps gold from settling deeper.if there are multiple layers of clay and gravel sounds like you may be in a mine tailings pile.this could be a good thing as when those mines were in operation gold was alot less valuable and they wasnt worried about the fine stuff so much.if you are in really arid terrain so much the better as people tend to use metal detecters and "shoot for nuggets" instead of panning.if you can get your vehical close to where your working and assuming its a truck if not a trailer on your car,purchase a plain water bed mattress and fill it with water before you go back to camp.you can even put a piece of plywood on top of it for more hauling space.build either a small sluice or a rocker box then with the little kiddie pool you bought for about $10.00 you have brought all you need to set up a sluice or rocker in the pool that you filled from the water bed mattress.i did this in nevada one year and made a nice bankroll with it.just one thing,i didnt see in your post anything about the gold pan.if you dont know how to pan just take a shotgun shell with lead shot #8 and cut it open and take 10 pellets and flatten with a hammer.fill the pan with gravel and sand then add the 10 shot.when you can empty the pan of gravel and sand without losing the shot your good to go with gold panning.


----------



## Arrowood (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks for the great tips Geo! This area is very arid, but it gets occasional floods during the spring, which lay down alternating layers of clay and gold ( and/or Pyrite) as the water cuts through the sand and deposits it someplace else. I'm fortunate that I can find these clay deposits right where I live. I don't own a gold pan yet or much other gold prospecting, recover, or refining equipment for that matter. I'm more interested in testing what I have before I spent more money, and go searching for other places to to find gold. There are lots of abandoned gold mines here however, that I want to check out and try processing the tailing piles. I don't know how those old gold miners even coped with the lack of water here. Must have been really hard without the modern pumps and things we have now.

As for the chlorine fumes,.. I've gotten a few wiffs of those allready,.. nasty stuff! I washed the left over metal from my Sulfuric acid digestion really well with water before I added the hypochlorite this time, and didn't get any strong chlorine smell at all.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 1, 2011)

After sitting for a couple of days, all the grey flakes left over after the sulfuric acid digestion broke up into a fine grey power and some really bright silver colored particles. That kind of surprised me,.. now I got two more things to analyze! At least I didnt have to do any kind of treatment to separate them. Lol 
Wonder if the bright stuff is silver and the gray stuff is lead?


----------



## Reno Chris (Aug 1, 2011)

Instead of just randomly mixing various chemical (which can be dangerous), why not get a real assay by a legitimate assayer and then you will know what is in your ore?


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 2, 2011)

Hi Reno,.. I'm not randomly combining chemicals,.. I'm studying element identification so I can do my own analysis, and experimenting with the few chemicals I have when I read about a combination that produces a reaction to gain some practical experience. I bought some lead free solder today so I can make stannous chloride and test the solutions, and I'm putting together a testing kit following the advice of J.S. Wisdom, C.W. Ammen, and Hoke. I'm not some dumb kid playing around, I'm a 60 year old man with a lot of practical life experience.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 2, 2011)

I've read a few hundred message threads in this forum since I joined less than a week ago, and I see a lot of people jumping into gold refining that obviously have not done much homework researching what they are doing. It seems to me that anyone interesting in gold recovery and refining should first learn how to identify what they are working with and gain some practical experience in chemistry before they start processing metals. Thats what I'm trying to do, to save money on assays and be able to work out the best procedure to process any ores I might find. I'm not just interested in metals, but all the elemental constitutes of the ore. Most people just want to recover the precious metals, and end up throwing away everything else. I majored in Natural Resources back in college in the 70's,.. the first thing they taught us was,.. "A waste is a resource out of place or time". Everything has a use of some kind,. Chemicals isolated and purified can be sold or used in other processes. There is no reason to ever throw away a waste product in my opinion. Ultimately, humanity will have to recycle everything to satisfy our ever growing need for resources. As our technology expands, our resource demands do too.


----------



## Platdigger (Aug 2, 2011)

A few things you should keep in mind when dealing with ores are mercury, arsenic, selenium,
ruthenium and osmium to name a few.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 2, 2011)

Hello Platdigger,. I know there is arsenic here for sure,. it was in the water analysis. I want to be as careful as possible in my chemical processing. last thing I want to do is poison myself. At present I am ill equipped to do some experiments. I need to build a fume hood, so I have a safer place to experiment, and that is on my list of things to do. Unfortunately, I live on a disability pension and don't have a lot of money to work with, so it's also important that I make as many chemicals as possible from the resources I have available. On the other hand, this area is loaded with natural resources, so it's the perfect place to experiment with chemical processes. I'm going slowly right now, working on a way to separate the sand, black sand, pyrite, and clay first. Then I'll work on ways to separate those resources into their chemical constitutes so I can recombine them into other chemicals. There are a lot of cool things you can do with just common sand,. silicon dioxide,. like making water glass,. or regular glass,. or silicon gels, etc. I love this kind of research!


----------



## Reno Chris (Aug 2, 2011)

> *I'm trying to save money on assays and be able to work out the best procedure to process any ores I might find*



Saving money by not doing doing assays is silly. Its like going to a rifle shooting contest and putting on a blindfold for the competition. 

You have no idea if your ore contains dangerous amounts of arsenic - you cant, because you have no assays. 
you have no idea if your black sand contains dangerous amounts of cinnabar - you cant, because you have no assays. 
You have no idea if your ore contains valuable amounts of gold - you cant, because you have no assays. 
We cant make suggestions on how to process your ore, because no one knows what is in it. 

Be very careful what you mix, because what you dont know, can kill you. "Practical life experience" is great stuff, but it wont tell you much about hazardous material chemistry, toxicity of chemicals or potentially dangerous chemical reactions. 

Acids and bleach (hypochlorites) generate Chlorine gas that can kill you. Chlorine is so awful, its use in war is against the Geneva Convention.
Certain chemicals mixed with arsenic in ores can generate Arsene - a gas that kills quickly. 

For the cost of building that fume hood you mentioned, you could have a reasonable idea of what your ore actually contains and that is a big step toward knowing how to treat it and how to handle it safely.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

You said,. "You have no idea if your ore contains dangerous amounts of arsenic - you cant, because you have no assays.
you have no idea if your black sand contains dangerous amounts of cinnabar - you cant, because you have no assays.
You have no idea if your ore contains valuable amounts of gold - you cant, because you have no assays.
We cant make suggestions on how to process your ore, because no one knows what is in it".

That is true Reno,.. but it doesn't make it valid logically. Are you saying I can't learn to assay my own ore? I believe I can,. and I will. How did other people learn to assay? They did it by practice of course. There is no other way. I am very independent, and I can learn how to do assays. just as other people have done. You will never convince me that I can't. 

I know my ore contains arsenic from the water analysis the owners did,.. and I know roasting it can release the arsenic. 

I know there may be cinnabar too, and roasting it may release the mercury,. that is why i am not doing any roasting experiments, because of the arsenic and mercury.

I don't know if my ore has valuable amounts of gold yet, but I will have some kind of indication when I test it with Stannous Chloride. It does give some indication of amounts.

I would like to have some suggestions of now to process my ore of course, but it is not a absolute necessity. I am aware of the standard ore processes already, and I can make that decision for myself once I have some idea of how much gold is present,.. if any. 

I'm not saying I wont get an assay from someone else in the future, but if I can avoid it and learn how to assay myself, then am I not better off doing that? I think I am,. or will be.

As for the cost of the fume hood,.. what does it take? It Just requires a method of moving the toxic vapors away from you and others so nobody gets harmed, which can be accomplished very inexpensively. I have already worked out a cheap way of doing this that costs less than $50. Sure,. I could probably ask "the rock man" to assay my ore for that amount of money, but that would not advance my goal of learning to assay the ore myself would it?


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

Unlike most people,. I am in no hurry to extract any precious metals I might find. The conditions of my disability pension state that any money I make will be deducted from my monthly pension. That is one of the stupid conditions our government has made for some veterans. 

I have only asked for help with the chemistry of ores,. not the recover or refining processes. There are ample examples and descriptions of the recover and refining processes in this forum, that anyone with half a brain should be able to follow. That part is like baking a cake, you just follow the recipe. The hard part is determining what you are working with. That is why I am focusing on learning how to identify the elements,. and learning to assay first. 

The three most important things in my opinion, are learning to assay, learning how to concentrate the ore, and learning how to separate the elemental constituents. Once that is done,. you are over the hump so to speak and can start recover and refining processes. If you disagree with this, then show me some proof that I am focused incorrectly,. if you can,.. which I doubt.


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 3, 2011)

I think if you want to learn how to assay that is great. But I think if you get an assay or two up front, it will show you how much dangers are present in your ore for one thing. Then you can hold samples to assay yourself from what you send in to match with your results. When you are starting to learn, how would you know if you can trust your findings? This way you would have an idea of what to expect with a heads up if there are any dangerous elements. I think it would pay safety wise. 

I would like to learn to assay also, but don't think I would like to start out with anything containing arsenic or mercury or other unknown dangers. Everybody is looking out for your safety. Precious metals aren't worth dying for, or getting seriously ill for.

Jim


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

I agree Jim,. safety is very important. How do I know I can trust the assay of another person for that matter? Are they infallible? Of course not. Sure,. I could get an assay to compare with my own assay, and this is a good idea when people are learning. But the tests described by J.S. Wisdom, C.W. Ammen, and Hoke are pretty conclusive. Why confirm something that is conclusive already? 

One of the people I have great respect for,. Is Helen Keller,.. a blind woman,.. She said,. "Security is mostly illusion,. it does not exist in nature, nor do the children of man experience it. Life is either a bold adventure or nothing" People tend to fear the unknown, but most of our fears are unfounded, because of lack of knowledge. That is why reading, learning, experience, and education are so important. With the proper understanding, there is no need to fear anything.


----------



## sawmill (Aug 3, 2011)

Arrowood

I understand the need to tinker,and experiment!
But there is better ways to prospect,and determine
if you have anything worth fooling with.
33 defunct mines in a two mile area should be a
pretty good clue,about what you are up against.

A little research with the state mine department
will tell you what they were mining,the type of ore,
and the process they used to extract any goodies.
There is dozens of field tests to determine if a
place is worth messing with, that are not toxic or
dangerous.

A good rule of thumb for a small miner is,if you
can't see free gold ,move on. The expense of 
leaching ,or working complex ore on a small scale
is a deal breaker,for a small operator. Also in a
known area like you describe,if there was enough
ore,that could be extracted at a profit. There
would be a mining company working it.

For less than a liter of acid,you can buy or construct
equipment ,to recover any free gold in your samples.
I can pan any free milling gold from a sample in a
coffee cup or an old hubcap. You don't even need a
real gold pan. A few drops of bleach will break up the
clay too.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Sawmill,.. that is an excellent suggestion! I didn't know there was a state mining department that keeps such records,.. I will check it out. This area was settled in the late 1800's, and all of the 33 abandoned mines are hard rock mines. I saw no placer deposit mining claims in the valley at all, which I assume reflects the lack of water to mine them by the old standard procedures. I don't know why all the mines in this area were abandoned for sure, but I suspect it was a combination of factors, like the lack of water and the highly refractory nature of the gold in this area. The old timers probably extracted all the free gold they could get easily and moved on like they have done in many other areas. 

I'm sure gold is not the only valuable metal in the area however. As C.W. Ammen says,. many miners have thrown away other valuable minerals in their search for gold, because gold was their focus, rather than taking a good look at what is available and going after what is actually present.

Like I have said in previous posts,. every element has some value. It is a matter of isolating it, and turning it into something useful. Most of the easy to get gold has already been taken, so now people are working on ways to get the finer gold and refractory gold. Putting gold aside for the moment however. Added value is the key, which is totally dependent on the person processing the material. I want to know what is here, and how I can use it to produce something of value to myself or others, what ever that product might be. I know I can already produce permanganate very easily for example. What does that sell for? I suspect there is lots of lead and silver here too. Silver is over $40 an oz now, and I can isolate the silver and lead very easily too. I have a bucket full of calcium carbonate and magnesium hydroxide already just from cleaning up the dissolved minerals in the water. Those chemicals can be purified and sold as well can't they? There is lots of iron here too,. black sand is everywhere. Why can't I use it to produce ferrous sulfate for example?

Is it not really just a problem of developing a system to isolate all the elements available, eliminating "waste", and using everything to produce something of value? None of the elements by themselves are valuable enough to make it profitable to go after on a small scale, but do not all the elements combined make it profitable on a small scale?


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

Here is some information I found about the mineral resources in Kern County, California (where I live). Excerpts from Report XIV of the State Mineralogist - Mines and Mineral Resources of Portions of California, Chapters of State Mineralogist's Report. 

"Kern, the leading mineral producing county of California, consisting of 8100 square miles, was organized in April, 1866. It is characterized by greater variety and contrasts of topography, geology, climate, and resources than any other California county."

"Kern County's mineral resources consist of antimony, barite, borax, clay, copper, fuller's earth, gems, gold, gypsum, iron, lead, lime, limestone, magnesite, marble, natural gas, petroleum, potash, salt, soapstone, soda, silver, sulphur, tungsten and molybdenum." 

"Sapphirine chalcedony is found at Kane Springs, in masses of a deep sky-blue color, with the grape-cluster surface characteristic of this material. Undeveloped; extent not determined."

"Rose quartz and opal reported in Kern County, north of Kernville, by J. W. Stockton, of Wasco."

"Included in the developed and undeveloped mineral resources of the county are antimony, arsenic, borax, clay, copper, feldspar, gems, gold, gypsum, iron, lead, limestone, magnesite, marble, natural gas, perlite, petroleum, potash, pumice, salt, silica, silver, soapstone, soda, sulphur, tin, tungsten, volcanic ash, and zinc."

Is this not a general assay of the major minerals that I can expect to find here?


----------



## jimdoc (Aug 3, 2011)

Arrowood said:


> Is this not a general assay of what I can expect to find here?



I'd call it a general list, an assay would include percentage amounts.
And I think you would want to get an idea of what is in your exact area
of interest, not just the whole county.

Jim


----------



## rusty (Aug 3, 2011)

Arrowood said:


> Here is some information I found about the mineral resources in Kern County, California (where I live). Excerpts from Report XIV of the State Mineralogist - Mines and Mineral Resources of Portions of California, Chapters of State Mineralogist's Report.
> 
> "Kern, the leading mineral producing county of California, consisting of 8100 square miles, was organized in April, 1866. It is characterized by greater variety and contrasts of topography, geology, climate, and resources than any other California county."
> 
> ...



Yesterday took in a load of lead acid battery's and got $0.36 lb, asked why they were so high when lead is currently going at $1.13 lb. 

They're after the antimony from the lead acid battery at $8.00 lb, worth way more than lead.

Regards
Rusty


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

As the state mineralogist's report says,. this is a very diverse area, and I have seen many different colored rocks. I picked up a white rock yesterday that was very light for its size. Some rocks are very soft and malleable too. I smashed a greenish colored one with a hammer a while back and some of it flattened out into a pancake. I have a lot of learning to do before I can identify all these minerals and separate the constitutes. 

At a $1 a pound, lead doesn't sound very profitable, but I can use it for assay purposes. Do you know of a good web site that lists the current price of metals and other elements Rusty? Where to sell chemicals like permanganate I might produce too. Not that I'm anywhere close to the point of being able to sell anything. Lol


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 3, 2011)

Arrowood said:


> As the state mineralogist's report says,. this is a very diverse area, and I have seen many different colored rocks. I picked up a white rock yesterday that was very light for its size. Some rocks are very soft and malleable too. I smashed a greenish colored one with a hammer a while back and some of it flattened out into a pancake. I have a lot of learning to do before I can identify all these minerals and separate the constitutes.
> 
> At a $1 a pound, lead doesn't sound very profitable, but I can use it for assay purposes. Do you know of a good web site that lists the current price of metals and other elements Rusty? Where to sell chemicals like permanganate I might produce too. Not that I'm anywhere close to the point of being able to sell anything. Lol



Kitco.com is a site you can look to for some of your metals prices.


----------



## rusty (Aug 3, 2011)

Arrowood said:


> As the state mineralogist's report says,. this is a very diverse area, and I have seen many different colored rocks. I picked up a white rock yesterday that was very light for its size. Some rocks are very soft and malleable too. I smashed a greenish colored one with a hammer a while back and some of it flattened out into a pancake. I have a lot of learning to do before I can identify all these minerals and separate the constitutes.
> 
> At a $1 a pound, lead doesn't sound very profitable, but I can use it for assay purposes. Do you know of a good web site that lists the current price of metals and other elements Rusty? Where to sell chemicals like permanganate I might produce too. Not that I'm anywhere close to the point of being able to sell anything. Lol



No help on the sales end of things, here are a couple of links for metal prices.

http://www.metalprices.com/pubcharts/Public/Antimony_Price_Charts.asp

http://www.kitcometals.com/

Regards
Rusty


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks Rusty and Barren Realms,.. I just found some more info on Kern County gold production by A. H. KOSCHMANN and M. H. BERGENDAHL - USGS 1968. 

"Gold was discovered in Kern County in 1851 in Greenhorn Gulch, near the Kern River (just north of here about 20 miles), by a member of General Fremont's party. Mining began in 1852 at the Keyes and Mammoth mines in the Keyes district. From 1880 through 1959 about 1,777,000 ounces of gold was mined, mostly from lode deposits." 

"The Amalie district is between the south summits of the Piute Mountains and Caliente Creek (This is the creek that drains the area where I live) in T. 30 S., Rs. 33 and 34 E. The principal mine, the Amalie, produced $600,000 in gold through 1932 (Tucker and Sampson, 1933, p. 280-281). Total production of the district through 1959 was about 30,000 ounces; nearly all production was from lode mines."

I believe these two quotes explain why all the abandoned gold mines in this area are hard-rock mines.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 3, 2011)

Because of the large number of gold bearing ore veins exposed in this area, I can't help but believe that much of that gold has been washed down into the valley by weathering over the centuries since they were exposed. I am sure the local lack of water to process these placer deposits has been a major problem to their recovery in the past. 

Since alluvial gold deposits tend to accumulate at the bottom of hills, I am going to focus my search for gold here along the bottom of the hills where I live. Especially where local flooding has cut trenches and concentrated the deposits in the valley. One of these draining ditches is on the property where I live, which also has an old gold mine on the hill behind my trailer. I few days ago, I was checking out a deep cut made by the last "gully washer" flood, and found another clay deposit with alternating layers of clay and what looks like gold. I took a sample, and will dissolve this material in HCl/Cl soon and test it with stannous chloride. I expect I will see some evidence of gold in the solution.


----------



## shaftsinkerawc (Aug 4, 2011)

Any idea how deep it is too bedrock where the valley levels out that you want to test? Unless the drainages cut through an old channel or a vein you may not have anything near the surface to catch on the false clay bedrock. Any old drill logs of the area or any water wells drilled in the valley that you can research to find the overburden depth? Keep up with your research and take lots of notes.


----------



## rusty (Aug 4, 2011)

shaftsinkerawc said:


> Any idea how deep it is too bedrock where the valley levels out that you want to test? Unless the drainages cut through an old channel or a vein you may not have anything near the surface to catch on the false clay bedrock. Any old drill logs of the area or any water wells drilled in the valley that you can research to find the overburden depth? Keep up with your research and take lots of notes.



Excellent, yes he could contact the water stewardship and get the drillers reports for sub terrain for any water wells drilled in the area. 

Regards
Rusty


----------



## Reno Chris (Aug 4, 2011)

> *Are you saying I can't learn to assay my own ore? I believe I can,. and I will*



Actually I do think you can. Really much of assaying is just following methods and techniques that have long been established by others. Its not really rocket science - its more about accurately and carefully following procedures. 

But there is equipment that is required. You have said you are on a very limited budget. These two dont go together. 

Its like saying I want to get into heavy construction and earth moving, but I have no bulldozers, front end loaders, back hoes or other heavy equipment and I cant afford to buy any of them. Or, I want to offer X-rays, Cat scans and other high tech medical services to people - but I cant afford any equipment at all. 

To do your own assays, you need a high temperature furnace, a very accurate scale, an atomic adsorption unit and a bunch of other stuff. 

If you were saying "I have $100,000 to spend and I want to get into assaying, - I'd say , sure, you could do that. 

But lets be real - at this point you are fooling around adding chemicals to ores for which you have no idea what they contain. Just FYI - poisonous gasses can be released from ores by adding acids (or other chemicals) - no roasting required. So if you are telling yourself, "I'm not roasting, therefore I am safe". I need to let you know that you are not safe at all. 

I agree with Sawmill that 99% of the time, if there isn't sufficient free gold to make your time worthwhile, then keep looking elsewhere. 

Chris


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 4, 2011)

I don't know how deep the valley sediments are till I hit bedrock, but I can check with the owners on how deep their well is and look for well drilling records to see. I imagine that bedrock will be closer to the surface next to the mountain where I will be exploring, so that should help. The ditch that I looked at a few days ago from the last flood is about 4 feet deep, and it's right next to the mountain. It looked like compacted sand and gravel all the way to the bottom, with a few layers that were clay. 

Why are you being so negative Chris? Sure,. I don't have a lot of money to work with, but that doesn't mean I can't learn how to assay does it? I will work with what I have and can afford to buy till I can invest more. I believe the knowledge of how to assay is more important than the equipment. I can do the tests that I can afford to do to begin can't I? 

This is more a challenging hobby for me, that allows me to get out in nature, explore the environment and learn, than a way to make a lot of money. Most people these days are ruled by money, which will ultimately be the downfall of our modern society. I believe you fall into this class. I am doing the best I can with what I have to work with. If you can't be supportive of my efforts to learn about nature as others are in this forum, I would appreciate it if you didn't post comments to my message thread.


----------



## nickvc (Aug 4, 2011)

Reno Chris is one of the few people on here I would recommend you listen to if your working with ores, he has a long track record and knows his way around. I don't think he's been negative but urging caution in your testing, as all here on the forum wish to hear how your proceeding in your quest, not that your either in hospital or the mortuary. We all try to push safety first metals second and that's for all members which ever part of the forum they are interested in or contributing to. 
Personally the thing I would be interested in trying to test for are the nasties that can harm you, your neighbours or the environment and finding ways to neutralise or remove them safely.
Please understand it's not that we deliberately try to be negative but we urge caution and mainly for your and others safety.


----------



## Reno Chris (Aug 4, 2011)

Ray - 

I really am not being negative - I am being realistic - and there is a huge difference. I really am not trying to squash your dreams, I wish you the best. 

You stated that you needed help with the chemistry of your ore. If you dont know what that is, how can we possibly help? We certainly dont know anything about your ore.

I have a university degree in Mine Engineering - I have constructed and operated ore treatment facilities, and I am very familiar with assaying procedures - so I know what I am talking about. I've also spent a lot of time prospecting in Kern County. 

If you want to go out and look for blue Chalcedony, rose quartz and other stuff - I think that's great. Rockhounding is fun - I do that myself. 
If you want to hunt gold in Kern county, I can assure you that there is gold to be found in the hills there and you will find gold there if you work at it (gold is not on every hill of course, but some of them).
If you want to study how assaying is done, great - Its a fascinating study. There are only a few cheap tests you can do - but one of them is the test suggested by sawmill - crush up your material and pan it. Gold pans can be purchased for less than $10 and you can process a lot of samples with just a gold pan and some water. Its cheap, its easy and its portable. There are loads of videos on the internet about gold panning and you can teach yourself how to do it easily enough. 

However, If you only only want positive, supportive comments on what you are doing, you should state that plainly. But along with that, you are also saying that if you are doing something wrong or making a mistake you dont want to hear anyone tell you about it.


----------



## crazyalbertan (Aug 4, 2011)

I applaud your eagerness arrow but doing proper assay's is the key to everything a prospector does. It tells you what u have and in what percentages. I am new to this hobby as well and I can tell you right now you need to slow down and take a few steps backwards and learn how to pan .Belive me that is the most important thing you can do right now for many many reasons. 

1. you get to see if there is a placer deposit of precious metals
2. the rocks and minerals in your pan can tell you alot about the area 
3. your out at the site so u actually get to see the area
4. if there is a placer deposit you can follow it up to it's source
5. it can help pay for assay's or even make a little extra cash

You might also want to check and see about claims in the area you are interested in both placer and mineral. Claim jumping is a huge no no. 

There are some very dangerous ore's out there arrow so think safety first.I am not trying to discourage you but rushing in to fast into area's that u have little knowledge about is just stupid please listen to the guys that have experience in this and are telling you to slow down.

Happy hunting.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 4, 2011)

I have read hundreds of message threads on this forum, and many posts from Reno (chris), and I know he is knowledgeable about gold recovery and processing, as well as assaying. But I object to anyone telling me what I cant do, especially because I don't have a lot of money to invest. I worked in the construction industry for many years, and people told me I could never exceed 1000 square feet per hour texturing drywall, but I proved them wrong by developing a process that allowed me to texture nearly 2000 sq feet per hour. I cornered the market in one of the biggest drywall companies in the midwest (Porter drywall in Westerville, Ohio), and forced the people who told me I couldn't do it to move on to other companies.

I listen to what everyone has to say, but I reserve judgment about the possibilities for myself. 

I have tried to pan the gold here. I borrowed a gold pan from the people who own the property. I have also researched gold panning, and know that typical gold pans are not suited to panning fine gold (read Robin Grayson's literature at mining.mn). I have also read "A review of gold particle size and recovery methods", by C.J. Mitchell, E. J. Evans, and M.T. Styles. Very fine gold "floats", and cannot be panned. Most of the very fine gold is missed in standard physical gold recovery methods, but not in chemical extraction. That is why I am here in this forum learning about chemical extraction methods.

I have an IQ two standard deviations above normal, and I have studied the principles of logic extensively. You cannot mislead me easily. I don't like to flaunt my intelligence, because I have discovered from experience that it gains you nothing. I learn very fast however, and I know what I can and cannot do. I will succeed in extracting the valuable elements here, and I will do it without creating any waste materials. It may take some time, but it will happen.


----------



## Barren Realms 007 (Aug 4, 2011)

Arrowood said:


> I have read hundreds of message threads on this forum, and many posts from Reno (chris), and I know he is knowledgeable about gold recovery and processing, as well as assaying. But I object to anyone telling me what I cant do, especially because I don't have a lot of money to invest. I worked in the construction industry for many years, and people told me I could never exceed 1000 square feet per hour texturing drywall, but I proved them wrong by developing a process that allowed me to texture nearly 2000 sq feet per hour. I cornered the market in one of the biggest drywall companies in the midwest (Porter drywall in Westerville, Ohio), and forced the people who told me I couldn't do it to move on to other companies.
> 
> I listen to what everyone has to say, but I reserve judgment about the possibilities for myself.
> 
> ...




I think you are taking what people on the forum are trying to get across to you in the wrong perspective. They are trying to get across to you the dangers in doing what you are trying to accomplish and the difficulties in this as well. You might want to curb your attitude and listen to what they are trying to tell you or you will likely not get much help from the forum. And your stement above about doing it without any waste will come back to bite you in the ass. There are a lot of inteligent people here on the forum but diving into this endevor can be a humbling experience as most of them will tell you when things don't go as you have planned.


----------



## crazyalbertan (Aug 4, 2011)

I can speak from experience this year that flour or flood gold and moss gold can be panned for and sluiced for successfully, but since river and creek sluices are illegal here i use a high banker and a 1 1/2" pump to pull water for it. Here in alberta the gold in the rivers and creeks comes from glacial till and very few places are rich enough to mine just gold so they generally start as gravel pits. I tested alot this year and found myself a place that is averaging 1.5 grams a yard to just under 3 grams a yard and its all flour gold ranging from -100 mesh to -400 and probly smaller and I get it just fine. I have worked my find for 18 days testing it and so far have recovered 4.5 ounces of gold that also contains 8% platinum and 1.2% silver. I am recovering 80- 85% normally. And yes the gold will float as will the black sand. So u can quote all the books u want but in the end I am still up 5 grand after the cost of my equipment and have found pieces of ore in the gravel I am working that will probably get me another ounce or so But i won't be processing it till I have a proper assay done . I read all kinds of books about prospecting and recovery and they all said to stay away from flour gold, but in the end I found a decent place that would be worth pulling out the heavy machinery right now and giving it a go but its only worth it because gold is over $1500. But right now i am not sure how long its going to stay high so that means no heavy machinery. 

As u can see I am talking from very new experience and am learning alot along the way . I have even ran 3 refining batches now with a 4th to be done this weekend that will be my largest so far.

Not all books are right in the suppositions or maybe I am just stubborn and am viewing my find threw rose colored glasses.

Any ways happy hunting and good luck.


----------



## Reno Chris (Aug 4, 2011)

Ray - 

Best of luck to you - let us know of your progress as you move forward.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 4, 2011)

As you can see Barren Realms,. I am very stubborn when it comes to my beliefs, but stubbornness can be a good quality if it is based on knowledge. Many great discoveries have been made by people who stuck to their beliefs in the face of opposition. If Copernicus had listened to the authorities of his time for example, it would have set cosmology back hundreds of years. I am aware of the dangers and difficulties of what I am trying to do, and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. I am not wrong however. It is possible to extract precious metals and other elements without creating any waste, and I will find a relatively simple way of doing it if I keep trying. One of the great lessons I have learned in my life, is that success is just one step beyond failure. I don't give up easily after I fail,. I just try something else until I find something that works. There are many ways to skin a cat as they say.

I know there are many intelligent people in this forum, and I respect their intelligence. Chemistry is one of the most difficult subjects to understand that there is. It involves many other scientific disciplines, and our (humanities) knowledge of chemistry is still very incomplete even after a thousand years of research. Progress is being made daily however. If you were to make a list of all patents in the last one hundred years for instance, you would see many more patents pertaining to chemistry than any other subject. 

As for assaying,. J. S. Wisdom's book "you can smelt too" provides a set of tests you can do for all the elements in ore, and that equipment can fit in a shoe box. See my post called Quick Qualitative Assaying for the equipment and chemicals needed to do these tests. I am in the process of acquiring the equipment and chemicals needed to do these tests, and i have found a good place to purchase new and used lab equipment very inexpensively. http://www.pyrotek.org/ "Where there is a will, there is a way" is a common saying that is very true. I have learned that success is more a matter of persistence than anything else.

Crazyalbertan,. I know that panning for gold is partially dependent on particle size, and screening to make all the particles being panned a similar size is one way of increasing the success of panning for fine gold. Once you reach a certain minimum threshold of particle size however, especially in areas where their is a lot of other chemicals that can coat the gold particles, the probability of successfully panning fine gold diminishes drastically. I live and work in one of those areas, where much of the very fine gold is tied up in sulfides and oxides of other elements.

Thank you for wishing me luck Reno,. and when I can borrow or buy a cheap digital camera I will post some pictures of the equipment I will be fabricating in my quest. C. W. Ammen gives a good overview of the equipment needed to process ores, and I am building an inexpensive but unique piece of equipment based on one of the ideas in that book. This piece of equipment will allow me to both separate and concentrate the "values" in the clay ore deposits where I live. With another simple improvement based on Patent number: 3763049 by Gerber 1973, it can even be used to recover extremely fine gold in suspension. 

Thank you all for the comments in this message thread!


----------



## sawmill (Aug 5, 2011)

Arrowood

You can sink the floating gold with a drop or two
of Dawn detergent in your pan. Don't believe
every thing you read in books,about panning gold.

Some of those guys ,knew more about selling books
than they knew about panning. :lol: 

CrazyAlbertan really is not crazy. His post was filled
with lots of real useful information . We have a spot
just like he is working,that I putter with. Some of the
gold is so fine,it looks like paint in a pan. If gold is in
a metallic form ,it can be panned,if you know how.
I am not saying that you could pan it for a profit,but
you can darn sure recover enough for a test.

By careful test panning I have learned the size and
volume of gold in our spot. This allowed me to know
how to recover it at a profit. By the way,according to
book writers,geologist,and other scholars ,there is no
gold in the area period! I can't take credit for the gold
discovery. My six year old Grandson made the discovery
with one of my pans. I taught him how to pan at the
ripe old age of three. :shock: Floating gold and clay
ain't no problem for him.

By the way I have my own claims in another state.
I am just a flunky on my Grandsons diggings. :lol:


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 5, 2011)

Hi Sawmill,. I think it is wonderful that you are exploring nature with your grand children, and teaching them how to pan for gold (or they are teaching you). I sometimes wish I had children, but I can't have children because I have Tourettes Syndrome, and I wouldn't want to pass that curse on to anyone (the probability is over 70% for females and 90% for males). 

I will try your suggestion about using dawn dish detergent in the electrostatic pinched sluice I am building when it is finished. Very fine Gold sticks to plastic, especially if you charge it electro-statically by bubbleling air through the water used in the sluice and make it slightly acidic. There is a patent about this process that I cant find at the moment. I know crazy albertan is not really crazy, but even if he were, I like crazy people. Lol


----------



## goldsilverpro (Aug 5, 2011)

Arrowood,

Check your PM - at the top where it says new messages.


----------



## Arrowood (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks GSP!


----------

