# oxidized metals



## avilanch2000 (Jul 14, 2013)

Ok so im new at this. i purchased a bar of melted pins. it has all the copper and junk melted in with it. there is clearly gold in the mix. I dont have access to much in way of chemicals. i statarted by trying to use bleach mixed with vinigar to disolve it but it just took off some of the surface and not much more. didnt expeft much but when i tried to remelt it thaats when the problem started. when it got hot the surface cracked and out poured the melted insides leaving a shell of the oxidized metal like a roasted marshmellow. then almost instantly the melted material re oxidized and turned into a kind of umm. its like a batter with not enough water in it. its obviously melted but gritty and all stuck together. you can see the gold in it but i cant get the crap out. i cant even get it to melt any more. im not sure what to do. i have only limited access to chemicals. bleach vinigar salt hcl drain uncloger and thats about it. ohh and h2o2.... any ideas?


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## solar_plasma (Jul 14, 2013)

Indeed, I have many ideas. 
The first is,* try a forum search "ebay melted pins"!*
The second is, follow the guided tour,
the third, download Hoke and read,
the fourth, and read some month in the forum,
and the fifth, use the search engine.

Welcome.


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## pattt (Jul 14, 2013)

Hi,
Newby here too, but no good news , best, use it as a paperweight.
no easy way , a quick search learned that you could:
melt and make shot from them, dissolve most basemetals in 50/50 nitric acid,
then go A.R.
So you need the acids, the knowledge and safety measures to work with them,
a fume hood, knowledge about,and be able to handle your wastes,
the place and time to do all that and the result will be 
Verry verry little gold.
its a scam.
do a search for melted pins and read some of the posts.

If I am wrong I am sorry and this will be corrected verry fast by other members here!
hope I was of some help .


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## jimdoc (Jul 14, 2013)

avilanch2000 said:


> Ok so im new at this. i purchased a bar of melted pins. it has all the copper and junk melted in with it. there is clearly gold in the mix. I dont have access to much in way of chemicals. i statarted by trying to use bleach mixed with vinigar to disolve it but it just took off some of the surface and not much more. didnt expeft much but when i tried to remelt it thaats when the problem started. when it got hot the surface cracked and out poured the melted insides leaving a shell of the oxidized metal like a roasted marshmellow. then almost instantly the melted material re oxidized and turned into a kind of umm. its like a batter with not enough water in it. its obviously melted but gritty and all stuck together. you can see the gold in it but i cant get the crap out. i cant even get it to melt any more. im not sure what to do. i have only limited access to chemicals. bleach vinigar salt hcl drain uncloger and thats about it. ohh and h2o2.... any ideas?




Considering you joined this forum on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:27 pm, you really have no excuse for buying what you did. You should have been studying the forum if you really want to try your hand at this hobby. Don't forget to study all the safety aspects of this hobby.

You can take that "bar of melted pins" and throw it in the trash before you hurt yourself with it, if you aren't going to study the forum to do things right.

Jim


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## solar_plasma (Jul 14, 2013)

> hmm.... thinking....im just wondering its a hobby i have in the past thought about getting into yada yada... thought maybe it would be nice to turn a even minute profit im reading c.m. hoke's book right now just getting some good foundation of knowledge before i really begin... ultimately i think it would be fun to make a ring or something made from my own efforts for the lady... but that's in the future after i got's an idea of what the hell im really doing.



That was i 2009!!!!! I would be forced to break the forum rules, if I would say, what I am thinking.... It is seldom that I think of people, that there are things they never can and will learn, - I am a professional optimist....but you should forget everything about refining.

I should not read this kind of posts, it is really making me angry and it is skyrocketing my blood pressure, no joke!

edit: sorry, I am sure, you are a good guy, and there are things, you are good at. I believe, you have really tried to read about refining and I believe it is not ignorance and disrespect for our time. But if so, my kind advice is, let it be!


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## Palladium (Jul 15, 2013)

jimdoc said:


> avilanch2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so im new at this. i purchased a bar of melted pins. it has all the copper and junk melted in with it. there is clearly gold in the mix. I dont have access to much in way of chemicals. i statarted by trying to use bleach mixed with vinigar to disolve it but it just took off some of the surface and not much more. didnt expeft much but when i tried to remelt it thaats when the problem started. when it got hot the surface cracked and out poured the melted insides leaving a shell of the oxidized metal like a roasted marshmellow. then almost instantly the melted material re oxidized and turned into a kind of umm. its like a batter with not enough water in it. its obviously melted but gritty and all stuck together. you can see the gold in it but i cant get the crap out. i cant even get it to melt any more. im not sure what to do. i have only limited access to chemicals. bleach vinigar salt hcl drain uncloger and thats about it. ohh and h2o2.... any ideas?
> ...





avilanch2000 said:


> *  im reading c.m. hoke's book right now just getting some good foundation of knowledge before i really begin*... ultimately i think it would be fun to make a ring or something made from my own efforts for the lady... but that's in the future after i got's an idea of what the hell im really doing.
> Dated Post Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:37 pm


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## avilanch2000 (Jul 15, 2013)

ok well lets get this straight. just because i joined years ago doesn't mean I spent the past years studying the forum. Next I'm in the army I have spent the majority of my time working. Its something I considered long ago and happened back across recently. you can bash all you like but no harm in asking. Scam or not at least I'm here asking questions. I came across the forum again at work and wrote a quick post didn't have time to go through things. Thanks for the support. 
Matt


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## mls26cwru (Jul 15, 2013)

avilanch2000 said:


> ok well lets get this straight. just because i joined years ago doesn't mean I spent the past years studying the forum. Next I'm in the army I have spent the majority of my time working. Its something I considered long ago and happened back across recently. you can bash all you like but no harm in asking. Scam or not at least I'm here asking questions. I came across the forum again at work and wrote a quick post didn't have time to go through things. Thanks for the support.
> Matt



Sometimes the 'reception' here can be a bit curt, but a large part of that in this case is from the material you bought.... To say that the 'gold ebay blobs' is a sore spot for most of the members here is a VAST understatement. 

The good thing is that you remembered to come back to this forum... all the real information you need about gold refining is here, you just have to hunt it down and find it and remember to be safe along the way. The best thing that I can recommend for a new comer interested in this field is find the electronic copy of Hoke's and read it front to back. Welcome back

M


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## solar_plasma (Jul 15, 2013)

> bleach vinigar salt hcl drain uncloger and thats about it. ohh and h2o2.... any ideas?



HCl and H2O2 are a good start. Search for AP method and fingers. Recovering from pins is also possible, especially if good ones, mostly full plated . But without HNO3 or any nitrate and SMB you will not be able to refine the gold.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 15, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> But without HNO3 or any nitrate and SMB you will not be able to refine the gold.


I'd have to disagree. Gold can be dissolved with HCl (concrete cleaner at the hardware store) and household bleach (laundry aisle). It can be precipitated with copperas made from iron (laminates from an old transformer) and dilute sulfuric acid (battery acid at the auto parts store).

Dave


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## Geo (Jul 15, 2013)

too, though its not common practice, i have seen where members use copper exclusively to cement the gold out of solution. the cemented gold would not be pure but if your goal is to reclaim gold at a somewhat pure state and not necessarily bullion grade, cementation is the easiest.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 15, 2013)

well, yes I forgot that bleach, but he didn't say he can get sulfuric :lol:
Just checked on wiki:
if he has H2SO4, he could make sulfur from that, and with the sulfur and his NaOH he can make SMB (Na2SO3 + SO2 -> Na2S2O5)....buuuuut first after having read and having at least a little experience and then it may be even better just to use SO2


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## niteliteone (Jul 15, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> well, yes I forgot that bleach, but he didn't say he can get sulfuric :lol:
> Just checked on wiki:
> if he has H2SO4, he could make sulfur from that, and with the sulfur and his NaOH he can make SMB (Na2SO3 + SO2 -> Na2S2O5)....buuuuut first after having read and having at least a little experience and then it may be even better just to use SO2



Too much trouble.
Why not use "Oxalic Acid" as a replacement for SMB


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## solar_plasma (Jul 15, 2013)

he didn't say, he has got any oxalic, though maybe he could extract it from sorrel or common wood sorrel


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## niteliteone (Jul 15, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> he didn't say, he has got any oxalic, though maybe he could extract it from sorrel or common wood sorrel



No he didn't.
*YOU* are the one that suggested he couldn't refine gold with-out ""HNO3 or any Nitrate and SMB"" and we are just correcting your Wrong, not his.


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## avilanch2000 (Jul 16, 2013)

Ok well thanks for changing tune. I have been doing some thinking and harsh chemicals are out of the quesrion. as im stationed in korea and my korean is a bit lacking. if i mix some hcl draim clog remover with peroxide would that have any effect on it? im thinking no because the metals are already oxidized i cant even get them to melt. What gold there is just moves from one side to the other away from the heat when i get it to melting point. the rest is just the left over junk. so i guess my first step would be to figure oit how to disolve out that metal then whats left would be impure but atleats workable. Right now considdering limitations i just wanna be qble to melt it all back into one chunk. ill worry about refining it when im bqck in the usa. I found the plans for shores gold refining system on google documents in patants. its fairly simple prety much just salt solution and electrolosis with a porrous barrier between to prevent the gold from replating. anyways thats for a later time. 
ill be going over the foeums today to get a better idea 
thanks. 
matt


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## nickvc (Jul 16, 2013)

Matt I'd seriously suggest you forget that bar of melted pins it's not worth the effort or chemical costs unless you were very lucky which unfortunately I doubt. Spend your time and efforts learning more about the basics and try to find material which will at least be easier to process and give you some small return with luck. Those bars are a scam to catch the unwary and those without knowledge, gold has a funny effect on many people and the sellers use that to hook their latest victims.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 16, 2013)

niteliteone


> No he didn't.
> YOU are the one that suggested he couldn't refine gold with-out ""HNO3 or any Nitrate and SMB"" and we are just correcting your Wrong, not his.




Calm down bro*, if you read the whole thread, you will see, that he told,* what chemicals he can get*, which logically means, he can't get any others. Comprende amigo? I told, what he can do with* only *these chemicals and yes,I forgot he also can use bleech, I guess he can get bleech BUT he didn't say it. What you are starting now is out of context.

*He said:



i have only limited access to chemicals. bleach vinigar salt hcl drain uncloger and thats about it. ohh and h2o2.... any ideas?

Click to expand...

*
he has:
vinegar
HCl
drain unclogger NaOH+Al (would not use that!)* Edit: I misunderstood this, he has only HCl drainunclogger*
H2O2

No bleech, no oxalic. With those che*m*icals he could only try hot AP to dissolve gold in fine particles or foils, like Marcel once mentioned. 


@ avilanch2000
You will probably be able to get the chemicals you need, or to make them yourself. It isn't that hard, you just have to know,where you find them.



> some hcl draim clog remover with peroxide



this would probably dissolve gold slowly, but I would not advise this, since you don't know what else is in this drain unclogger, tensides etc.


> I found the plans for shores gold refining system on google documents in patants. its fairly simple prety much just salt solution



You can read many threads on the forum about people having problems with shore systems and at least it is more expensive than it has to be. At home in the USA you will easily be able to get your chemicals,cheap and pure household chemicals.


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## Platdigger (Jul 16, 2013)

Perhaps he has no bleech, but it does say in the quote you posted...bleach.

Not that it matters, really. I mean as far as helping the guy out goes.
By the way, Matt, thank you for serving.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 16, 2013)

> i statarted by trying to use bleach mixed with vinigar to disolve it but it just took off some of the surface and not much more



right, he has had some



> By the way, Matt, thank you for serving.



I like it, how you americans treat your soldiers and firemen. Here in germany they don't have that status, quite the contrary.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 16, 2013)

> as im stationed in korea



Just a thought...I heard electronics are very cheap in korea, then e-scrap may be cheap too. So, maybe you can gather some good (flatpacks, fingers, pins, mlcc's, some cpu's - buy mainboards, cell phones (search on the forum, for yield data and pricing) and cards, cherrypick 'em and sell them again, - a nice evening work after going off duty, you need some small pliers, chisel and screwdrivers. try to avoid making dust, it can contain lead or maybe beryllium oxide from ceramics) and cheap material over there until you go back to the states.


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## avilanch2000 (Jul 20, 2013)

Thank you for the support guys. Sorry I haven't responded for a few days works been keeping me busy the past week. Lots and lots to do. Yes i have Bleach. When I said shore I meant the patent that was filed. It has the system how it works and why it works. basically it is a saline electrolyte cell with the anode and cathode separated by a ceramic clay or cellophane barrier so the dissolved gold forms AuCl instead of plating to the anode then use a little SMB to precipitate the gold made a super low quality version from a cigarette wrapper and a old laptop battery charger. worked slow but steady. Laptop charger was only pushing 2 amps I'm guessing with 15-20 amps the process would be much faster. either way it worked ok with what I had haven't precipitated the results yet to see if it worked properly or not but from what I can tell as of now it did what it was meant to do. By the way is there any real alternative to SMB Ive been doing some looking around and the closest I can fins is some guy talking about stumpout (Which I grantee i cant find here)


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## solar_plasma (Jul 20, 2013)

> By the way is there any real alternative to SMB Ive been doing some looking around and the closest I can fins is some guy talking about stumpout (Which I grantee i cant find here)



There are a lot of possibilities, though sodium metabisulfite or potassium metabisulfite are in most cases for several reasons the preferred method.

Try a search on copperas, oxalic acid, cementation, in special cases alkali hydroxides (not in your case), SO2, - just to mention a few. But you won't get happy with any method without having read enough about it, even if you have not much time. Then better wait and give it time, before you make a mess of half processed solutions that they will not allow you to take home to the US.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 21, 2013)

A few thoughts...

Why not ask someone on the forum to refine your bar for you? You might just find someone who can recover the values, and not put so much time effort and energy into attempting to refine something, that you probably shouldn't be attempting to refine?

Or if you are truly intent on refining your bar, try thinking about it as recovering the copper instead of recovering the gold. Your bar is probably well over 95% copper, which makes it an ideal candidate to refine using a copper electrolytic cell. In recovering the copper, you will be leaving behind the other metals as anode slim and can process them accordingly.

Whenever there is a metal that is of a higher percentage than another, I try to think it terms of recovering that metal first, if at all possible.

If you don't like any of the answers I have given you, there is another option for you. You can always ask the seller for a refund, and if he refuses contact ebay and deal with it that way. The way ebay has been operating lately, I believe you will get your money back, and probably end up being able to keep your bar anyway. So far as I am concerned, sticking it to the person who is selling this type of material would be giving them what they deserved.

Scott


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