# Classes? Does anyone know where someone could take AR class?



## Anonymous (Apr 27, 2009)

Been buying scrap and selling to another individual that has a nice AR lab but doesnt seem to intereseted in sharing his knowledge. which i understand because he buys my gold..

But i have searched quite a bit for information on anyone offereing a class and come up empty handed.. I feel there are 2 guys on here that should REALLY offer a class. They could clean up in registration fee's.. ;-)

But any information would be appricated.. I only buy karet gold so i dont need any information on Plated or filled gold cleansing..

Thanks

Bob


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## 4metals (Apr 27, 2009)

Bob, who buys gold.

I'm a chemist who has refined and set up refineries to refine large quantities of gold. Part of me is saying yeah everyone should be able to refine their gold, but of late (the last 3 years or so) the jewelery related refiners have to make some important decisions before refining their own gold. In today's economy selling gold isn't all that easy as it was when alot of jewelery was manufactured in the US. As a result, unless you're independently wealthy, you will have to sell your gold. 

When you use an outside refiner, they pay you for your gold, and you have more cash to buy more scrap. I have noticed a general fear of refiners on this forum. As a result I posted a few posts in the section "selling your gold" in a thread called "I've been screwed by 2 refiners "
Those posts will tell you what to look for to get a fair return from your scrap.

Now if you have a strong hankering for getting your hands into some chemicals, I would set up a small assay lab to do fire assays for gold and silver. I'd be happy to detail the setup of a small assay lab and the techniques needed. IMHO I would set up an assay lab, and a small gas fired melter to make my own bars, bring them to a refiner to witness their sampling. The refiner will assume the expense of refining and probably charge you around 2% and possibly a melt or assay fee. For his efforts, he will spend about 1/2% on the refining and stands to profit 1 1/2%. In todays market, gold can drop that profit margin in an hours trading so todays refiners take the risk which I personally would avoid. Unless you can sell all of the fine gold you can make. 

These recommendations are based on an assumption that you're selling a kilo or more of scrap per trip to the refiner. 

In the event that you feel my advice is not what you wanted to hear, I can also detail for you how to set up a small refinery but as I said, between selling your gold, refining the gold, treating the waste and all involved, I'd op to send my refining out.


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## markqf1 (Apr 27, 2009)

All of the information that one could ever need to refine with AR is on the threads of this forum, ... somewhere.  

I haven't found the search engine to be too friendly!

There are alot of members here that regularly use AR.

It is obvious that some members are more knowledgeable than others, just as some are more approachable than others.
As far as setting up a lab, think safety first.
When I started out I done it outside, and I had to move my vehicles several hundred yards away to avoid the fumes from attacking them.

A fume hood is a first priority when dealing with nitric.
Even then, the fumes, which tend to lay low, will hang around.

There's plenty of help here, but you have to take the time to learn some basics on your own.

Hoke?


Mark


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## markqf1 (Apr 27, 2009)

Also, if your only dealing with karat gold, what has you so deadset on using AR to refine it?

Mark


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## Oz (Apr 28, 2009)

4metals,

Your post on selling pms was insightful and thorough. It also enjoyed your novel approach to use formic acid with silver, something that was totally new to me and I imagine most others. I look forward to the results from those that try formic acid.

With the great detail you convey in your posts, I for one would enjoy reading how you would set up a small assay lab as well as a small refinery. Even for those that have great experience I am sure it would be thought provoking.


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## bmgold (Apr 28, 2009)

4metals, 



> With the great detail you convey in your posts, I for one would enjoy reading how you would set up a small assay lab as well as a small refinery. Even for those that have great experience I am sure it would be thought provoking.



I would also be interested in reading your idea on setting up an assay lab.


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## dick b (Apr 28, 2009)

I would think that an area about 8' by 10' in a small garden shed or corner of the garage would be large enough. Add a good fume hood. About 2' by 4' by 3' high and a small bench about the same size to work at would handle most of the needs of the hobby refiner. 
You would need a source for water and electricty. A small hot plate with either gas or electricty to run it. and some shelves and cabinets to store supplies and chemicals would be nice. Then a door with a lock and key to keep kids and animals out and safe should round out the needs of the hobby refiner. 
Anybody want to add to this? Please feel welcome.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Apr 28, 2009)

Hi,

I find your post interesting, since I recently have considered offering that very service you are looking for.

Please send a phone number so we can talk.

You may want to look at an eBook I created.

Here's a link to it:

http://noblemetalsrecovery.com/GOLDebook2.exe

Regards, Steve


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## aflacglobal (Apr 28, 2009)

Registration # :?:


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Apr 28, 2009)

You must be wondering how to access the eBook.

When I created the eBook, I used a software program to prevent piracy. It has worked well, but is a little bit of a hassle.

To use the software you need to register it one time. You do it by creating a user name (not an email address) and a password and by supplying a name (first name only is OK) and an email address.

Once that is done when you try to open the eBook again it will provide YOU a user number. If you send me the user number, then I can send you the RegKey for your program. It will only work on the computer that you loaded it onto. 

You only need to do all this stuff one time, from then on you can use the eBook by just opening it. You do need to be on line when accessing it.

Just so you know, this eBook is years old, and some of it is outdated. Much better info is available here on the forum, but it still has some nice basics.

Noxx and LaserSteve both cut their teeth on it, so it can't be all that bad.

Regards, Steve


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## jimdoc (Apr 28, 2009)

Is this the same info that we would have bought from you on Ebay
on a CD?
Jim


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Apr 28, 2009)

Yes, it is, with one exception.

The CD also contains two earlier CD's that I published before the last one.

The eBook has links to the earlier CD's, but the links do not work.

If you are going to send me your user number it's easier to send it to me directly.

My email address is: [email protected]

Steve


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## markqf1 (Apr 28, 2009)

Excellent question Jim!

Mark


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## 4metals (Apr 28, 2009)

Oz,

I will gladly write up the necessary innards of a small assay lab if there is interest. I was a bit disappointed that in some of my postings about outside refining and waste treatment that very few with technical experience in these areas chimed in. It would be a shame if I write up how to set up an assay lab only to have it be solely my opinion. I,ll write up something and post it in the Assay / Sampling / Testing section. hopefully it will be critiqued by some of the resident experts so we all can get something out of it. May take a day or 2.


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## semi-lucid (Apr 28, 2009)

4metals said:


> Oz,
> 
> I was a bit disappointed that in some of my postings about outside refining and waste treatment that very few with technical experience in these areas chimed in.



You should probably take that as a compliment. If you posted something they disagreed with, they would probably chime in :wink: 

J


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 29, 2009)

4metals,



semi-lucid said:


> You should probably take that as a compliment. If you posted something they disagreed with, they would probably chime in



Semi-lucid is exactly right. I have read all you've written and I can't think of anything that I've disagreed with. I might do a lot of things differently but I know that what you have said will work well. The only criticism (a picky one) I have is that you write everything in one long paragraph. It would be more readable if you were to break them up a bit. It took me awhile to learn that myself.

After being around so many refineries during the last 40 years, I know there are many different ways to do everything. How you process or assay is dependent on many things like, how much can you afford to spend, what type equipment do you already have, how much space do you have, how much volume do you need to set up for and should you consider expansion, what do you want to accomplish, etc., etc? I have set up large refineries carte blanche and I have set up refineries where nearly everything was hand made or modified from stuff that was scrounged. Every deal is different. In my opinion, flexibility and ingenuity are good and dogmatism is bad


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## Harold_V (Apr 29, 2009)

semi-lucid said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> > Oz,
> ...



I sure as hell would! 

You're doing an excellent job. The only shortcoming I can see is that it is often geared towards big business----but all of us can learn something from your posts---and apply what fits. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Apr 29, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> The only criticism (a picky one) I have is that you write everything in one long paragraph. It would be more readable if you were to break them up a bit. It took me awhile to learn that myself.



Heh! 

Writing is an art----often a gift bestowed on an individual, and not necessarily one that is well educated. 

I have read articles written by extremely well educated people that can't put two words together. It shows. They may know their business, but they have a hard time expressing what they know. 

We have a retired college Dean on the Chaski board. His sig line is "You are what you write."

I agree!

Harold


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## Oz (Apr 29, 2009)

Well there you go 4metals, you have heard from 2 of our most prolific and experienced members giving you a thumbs up on your advice so far. I can testify to the fact the GSP and Harold are not shy if they disagree with what someone says here, and only a fool would not be interested in what you have to say on a small assay or refining lab given your prior posts.

I will say however that I understand what I think 4metals is saying (correct me if I am wrong). When GSP made the comment “I might do a lot of things differently but I know that what you have said will work well”.

4metals would probably like to hear how other experienced members would have done it, there is always a tidbit in there for even the most experienced refiner. The three of you have a good number of years under your belts individually doing this for a living, and I for one have learned the most on this forum when GSP and Harold debate procedures or methods back and forth and end up having to agree to disagree (dang old salts they are). The subject is thoroughly vetted by that point and I find I have learned many nuances that otherwise would have been missed had I just been handed a recipe book. I may try both methods separately or take what meets my needs the best from each, but I come away from it at a minimum of having 2 procedures that will work for the task at hand. The unexpected often happens in refining and if nothing else it is nice to have a plan B from someone else that has been in the trenches.


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