# Asbestos and catalytic converters



## geedigity (Dec 29, 2014)

Hi - This is my first post and thought I would mention a precautionary statement about catalytic converters. The potential issue relates to the packing material that holds the ceramic honeycomb within the metal jacket. The reason I mention this, is that upon me opening up two of my converters, I encountered a white fluffy material (packing material) that looked very much like a friable asbestos containing material. I have a friend who runs a PLM laboratory (asbestos bulk analytical lab) in Denver, CO and had him look at the material. It was over 60 percent Chrysotile asbestos. From my stand point, since I already suspected this would be the case, I took a few precautions:

1) Prior to cutting open the metal jacket of each converter, I soaked the catalytic converters in a bucket containing a couple tablespoons of laundry detergent with about 4 gallons of water. I let the converters sit in the solution for a total of about 4 or 5 minutes, and during that time, I flipped the converter end to end, just to make sure it was good and wet. 

2) Prior to cutting open the metal jackets, I placed the converter in a medium sized cardboard box with the top and about a foot and a half cut off. Then I taped a clear piece of plexiglass as a see through lid. On one side of the box, I cut two holes just big enough to fit my hands and a Sawsall cord through and on the opposite side at the bottom, cut a hole, just big enough to fit the nozzle of my HEPA vacuum. NOTE: I used a HEPA vacuum, not my house vacuum nor my shop/wet/dry vacuum. 

3) I turned on my HEPA vacuum, and commenced to cutting the converters open (in the box). Trust me, it was a pain holding onto the converter while sawzalling in a cardboard box. 

4) When I was done, I collected a sample and brought it to the lab for analysis. 

5) Waste disposal was easy, I just called up this abatement company and asked if i could throw it in their dumpster that they use for small quantities of waste generated from miscellaneous projects.

At any rate, I thought this may help make some folks aware and to be a bit cautious when opening converters. Some folks may think that they don't put asbestos in things anymore or haven't for years. Simply not true, since in the US, there was really only the "spray ban," but later I think the EPA's rule was overturned. In reality, industries in the US don't want asbestos in the products they manufacture due to the liability associated with it. Imports from another country, completely different story.


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## necromancer (Dec 29, 2014)

you can also soak the catalytic converter in water. making sure its wet before cutting into it.

good first post !! asbestos is not something you want to be breathing.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 29, 2014)

Interesting article on isolating fiber mats used in catalytic converters and diesel particulate filters.
http://www.ecfia.eu/files/ecfia-aa-paper.pdf

Göran


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## Lapsy (Sep 25, 2017)

Firstly, I cannot thank you enough for posting this information. I appreciate this highly and I found the information difficult to find. This totally hit the nail on the head for me.
I have since contacted Safework S.A in South Australia in relation to an issue on this with my former employer.
I worked part time very recently processing catalytic cores, and upon chopping open exhausts on my companies newly purchased a cat sheering machine, I did notice a white cotton wool like material within an open cat quite often.
The thing that caught my eye was how clean the material was, almost looking like cotton wool straight out of the packet. It's really white and considering how many fumes pass through a catalytic converter it is amazing how clean it looks. Out of all processors working there I held the record for quantity processed in a day (265 cats in a 7.5 hour shift) although they always pushed for more to be done (as bosses do).
I was given a machine operating manual that addressed various safety concerns with the machine, however... the manual has not one mention of any form of asbestos hazard whatsoever.
So I'm now waiting for results of the workplace investigation, to determine the possible exposure risks.
The exhausts I processed are from all types of vehicles of all ages, and come from many regions of manufacture. So I cannot say that all the "white stuff" that passed by me while processing is that particular asbestos containing material, but mate.... I am not taking any chances after reading this that's for sure!
I'm concerned about bringing the material home with me on my work clothes, as I just worked in my own Hi visibility shirt and my own work pants and boots, as well as a hat and I provided my own ear protection.
The only PPE given to me by my employer were glasses, face mask, apron and gloves. I'm now wondering if I should have been given full body overalls to either be left at the workplace or disposable overalls for each shift.
I live in a share house, which is somewhat alarming to me depending on the risk for obvious reasons, as I've washed my clothes in the machine and my housemates would have used it after me! I am currently unsure if I am over reacting at this stage, but better safe than sorry until further notice without over stressing the situation.
My question in response to the the post is.... I'd be curious to know, what car did your exhaust come from? We processed so many cats that I have no idea which exhaust comes of what car, to identify where the white fiber is coming from. Not every exhaust has it bear in mind, and I'd say approx 70% were missing this product but I tended to see it often enough. The thought did not occur to me that this material was of high heat resistance and the possibility it was asbestos related material was overlooked. 
I actually researched the contents of the cat for hazards, as metallic air born particles from the cat dust alone was in question, and I thought there may be asbestos in this from old cars from the 70's and 80's. I then stumbled on this.
I will be taking legal action on the company if they are proved to be negligent in addressing the risk associated, and to put it bluntly, If I do have a case, I hope my bank fills up with money to assist me in feeling better, after I sue them for exposure to harmful materials, while backed up by a governing body.
If I am successful, I guess I owe you a beer!


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## g_axelsson (Sep 25, 2017)

It seems like the document I linked to is broken, here is the file for download for anyone that like to read more.

Göran


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## Lapsy (Sep 25, 2017)

Cheers mate! I did click on that and it attempted to download, then it gave me an error.
Any and all information appreciated, I'd like to gather as much ammo as possible while this is current for me.

You guys are Legends! :G 

Here is a link to the machine I used for anyone interested....

http://jmcrecycling.com/products/cat-shack-dust-extraction-unit-for-catalytic-converter-shears/

The machine is not in a sealed room or anything, in fact there is a massive double door within 15-20 feet away from the machine big enough for a truck to drive through. Some days the wind blows in and the catalytic dust just blows freely within a huge shed maybe 50mtr X 100mtr square. The machine does have an air duct behind the cutting blade, but it never seems to draw any product in. I took my glove off to stick my hand in the vent I have felt no vacuum pulling air in or any breeze. It's like it's not working or something. I could cough and make more air move in comparison. The lighter dust just floats in the air wherever it likes after cutting and emptying a cat out, while the rest falls through the grill, then funneled into the screw conveyor on it's way to the collection bag.
Other workers are cruising around nearby on forklifts or working on cars within unmasked, and customers are also in the building, so the cat dust can just freely float in the air wherever it likes pretty much.
I'm no expert as you can probably tell, so I thought I'd just drop the scenario on here for discussion and see what people think of it. 

Also in regards to PPE Equipment, I always thought I was maybe under protected, and compared to this guy in the following picture, It looks like I was. But what the requirement is in my country and state is another thing all together. This looks like the right type of equipment to be wearing though for hazardous materials. We had nothing like this... Impressive!

http://www.phxautocores.com/en/Catalytic-Converters/Catalytic-Converter-Direct-Processing.html#.Wcjn44VICqQ

I was dressed pretty much like the guy in the next link, except I wore safety glasses (not sealed goggles...), 

http://blog.prochoice.com.au/personal-protective-equipment/donning-applying-doffing-removing-ppe/

The mask was similar, but I was given the following respirator to wear which does have an active carbon filter. They were disposable but the boss would tell us to reuse them to save $$/not waste them.

http://www.prochoice.com.au/products/Respiratory_Gear/Disposable_Respirators/Respirator_P2_with_Valve_and_Active_Carbon_Filter_-_PC531.aspx

Feel free for anyone to drop their 2 cents on whether you consider this suitable for the job. In comparison to other pictures of cat processors online, it looks like the bare minimum budget operation.
Sorry to post in haste, but while I'm on the topic I may as well offload all the info in one go while I'm thinking about it, and wait for any feedback. No one I know works in this industry, so if there are any other experienced cat processors cruising around on the site, drop by for a chat and let me know how your company operates.


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## Lapsy (Sep 25, 2017)

Just found this also, and Page 21 is very interesting! 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/og/og-00093.pdf


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## Lapsy (Sep 25, 2017)

Found the info I need.
If interested read from page 9 here.....
https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/system/files/documents/1702/guide-handling-refactory-ceramic-fibres.pdf

It states many issues such as don't take the clothing home, you must notify workers of the risks associated, and a couple more things relevant to my scenario.

Game on.... by the looks of things (legally!)! :twisted: :evil:


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## geedigity (Sep 26, 2017)

In answer to your question, I do not know what year, make or model the catalytic converters came from, since they were given to me. Sorry I couldn't be more help with this.


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## snoman701 (Sep 26, 2017)

Dust is dust is dust when working with industrial scrap.

If it's not biodegradeable, you need to be wearing an appropriate barrier between your lungs and the dust. An N95 mask is not an appropriate barrier.

Silicosis, platinosis, mesothelioma, etc...all of these are preventable.


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## Lou (Sep 26, 2017)

snoman701 said:


> Dust is dust is dust when working with industrial scrap.
> 
> If it's not biodegradeable, you need to be wearing an appropriate barrier between your lungs and the dust. An N95 mask is not an appropriate barrier.
> 
> Silicosis, platinosis, mesothelioma, etc...all of these are preventable.




This is all very true.

It is too easy to come in the habit of taking health risks despite knowing it is a risky situation and that suitable PPE are merited. I call it lazy willful blindness. When I was younger, I did not worry overmuch. Different story after more education.


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## Lapsy (Sep 27, 2017)

Hi All and thanks for the feedback.

I have been researching this as much as possible. Best information for me (in Oz) was a PDF I found called A guide to handling Refractory Ceramic Fibres. RCF is the thing to be looking for (I have since found out) rather than asbestos, as RCF seems to be the name of the material present in Catalytic converters.

If anyone would like to read this small booklet it can be found here (If I have not posted it already...)

https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/system/files/documents/1702/guide-handling-refactory-ceramic-fibres.pdf

As far as the mask goes, I have no problem. I wore it constantly without fail while processing (as you should!), and have since confirmed that it meets the Australian and New Zealand Standards for the job, as stated in the guide book mentioned above. That is a good thing (hopefully). It is standard AS/NZS 1716 as required below

I quote from page 8 of the above manual....

"*Respiratory Protective Equipment
RPE should be used only as a temporary control measure— i.e. 
for short-term exposure which is otherwise difficult to control 
and where concentrations are unknown. RPE should not be 
used as a long-term solution.
A Class P1 or P2 respirator should be worn during work in 
enclosed or poorly ventilated spaces, for example inside kilns 
and furnaces or where evidence suggests dust and fibre levels 
are likely to exceed the exposure standards. Face pieces should 
be cleaned and disinfected and placed in a sealed plastic bag or 
stored in a dust and fibre free environment after each use.
RPE should comply with AS/NZS 1716-2003: 
Respiratory protective devices and be selected, used and maintained in accordance with AS/NZS 1715-2009: 
Selection, use and maintenance of respiratory protective devices*"

What is not cool, is the fact I took my clothes home with me, which the guide states should not happen. I also think sealed goggles should have been worn and not "glasses" (they seem pointless, because air can freely flow through behind the lens).
The company is responsible for providing all PPE, so it is on them alone, to make sure everything meets the standard required.
I must state for you, my boss mentioned nothing of this hazard. I have had no guide or workplace safety manual to sign off on in regards to RCF's. I was only given a machine operating manual.
I actually think the boss is totally unaware of the situation. I even saw him processing without a mask when the machine initially arrived. 

I quote from page 7 of the above RCF handling manual....

"*A person conducting a business or undertaking must provide workers with PPE if other 
control measures do not minimise exposure. Workers must be trained to fit and use PPE 
so it remains effective in controlling the risk.*"

Page 8 says....

"*GUIDE TO HANDLING REFRACTORY CERAMIC FIBRES
Table 2
Personal Protective Equipment for handling materials or plant containing 
Refractory Ceramic Fibres or High Biopersistence Fibres
Item
Recommendations
Protective clothing
Workers should be provided with and wear protective clothing 
suitable to the work type to prevent skin and eye irritation, 
for example disposable lightweight overalls worn over normal 
clothing. Tight cuffs or collars should be avoided as they can 
cause irritation by rubbing fibres into the skin.
Protective clothing should:

be long sleeved

be removed before removing respiratory protective 
equipment (RPE)

where disposable, be placed in a sturdy plastic bag and 
disposed of in line with Chapter 4 of this Guide, and

if reusable, be placed in a sturdy plastic bag and laundered 
separately from other clothing to prevent fibres being 
transported onto other garments.
Protective clothing should not be:

taken home, or

cleaned by compressed air in an attempt to remove 
adhering fibres.
Changing arrangements should be designed to minimise dust 
and fibre exposure during dressing and undressing.*"

.....and finally the main point I feel, is addressed on page 9.....

"2*.4 Information, training, instruction and supervision

Before material or plant containing RCF or HBF is used you must provide workers with the 
information, training, instruction and supervision necessary to protect them from risks to 
their health and safety. Information should include the possible hazardous health effects to 
the lungs and irritation to the skin, eyes and throat.
Information, training and instruction must take into account:

the nature of the work carried out by the worker

the nature of the risks associated with the work at the time of the information, training 
and instruction, and

the control measures implemented.
Information, training and instruction must be provided in a way that is readily 
understandable by any person to whom it is provided.
Workers should be trained:

to use control measures effectively and safely to minimise inhalation of dust and fibres

how to minimise skin and eye contact with RCF or HBF materials, and

how to wash after handling RCF or HBF *"

Non of that ever happened whatsoever.

I followed up my complaint with Safe Work S.A (who wrote the above guide), and they informed me my former company is now under investigation. :G 

It is pretty average to think that without being told of the hazard, my workmate and I actually threw about the remaining catalytic converter shells after the contents were emptied, through the air, into a big rubbish skip at work, and I don't remember either of us wearing a mask while doing it as we were nowhere near the cat machine, and were not operating it at the time. Having not been told of the hazard, we just didn't know. We stored them prior to skipping them in a Ute tray, piled up in a heap, and we also filled a whole wrecked van up with empties to the brim. It was that heavy the forklift couldn't pick it up, and we had to sort of drag the van over to the skip with the fork. The skip was huge too with 6-7 foot sides on it and about the size of a small shipping container in length, which got stacked full and taken away.

There would have been fibres launched into the air no doubt!
I also feel sorry for customers as well as my workmates.

The 2 most popular cars in Australia are the Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon, following that I would say Mitsubishi Magna, so these catalytic converters would have been most common to see when processing. Although I have handled all makes and models during this time, as you would in this industry.

I tip my hat to everyone who has helped so far and/or chipped in their 2 cents on the topic. 

You are legends!


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