# MotherBoards data and experiences



## perman666 (Apr 13, 2015)

I didn't find appropriate theme so I open this one.

We all know that MB ( PC motherboards ) has several category's.

Has anybody any experience with bigger lots of motherboards?

I need as much data I can get how much for example Umicore
will pay for 10 tons of motherboards. 

I am living in EU and know UMICORE from Belgium / SAFINA from Czech Republic.
My goal is 10tons per month but I need some numbers before my next step.

Anybody from this forum, can you send some data ?

Thanks.


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## kurtak (Apr 13, 2015)

That's like asking how much gold is in a mountain that has ten different gold bearing vanes in it :roll: 

The amount of gold in a ten ton load of boards is going to be "different" with each load because it depends on how much of what type boards went into each load &/or for that matter how many boards made by what manufacturing company

Kurt


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## perman666 (Apr 13, 2015)

kurtak said:


> That's like asking how much gold is in a mountain that has ten different gold bearing vanes in it :roll:
> 
> The amount of gold in a ten ton load of boards is going to be "different" with each load because it depends on how much of what type boards went into each load &/or for that matter how many boards made by what manufacturing company
> 
> Kurt




I am aware of that information. Just want to collect other experiences with big lots of motherboards.
Also, not only gold, I want to know for copper, silver and other metals.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 13, 2015)

I have collected a few posts from the forum and put it into this list. Each entry links back to the post on the forum.

http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Yield_numbers

Göran


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## patnor1011 (Apr 13, 2015)

You can find a lot of info online. I just recently found interview with some lady from some US refinery giving out some numbers but I was on a quest of searching numbers for laptops so the only number I remember is that she stated that 200 pieces of laptops will yield 5 oz of gold. I am currently going through 100 laptops with another 100 being delivered shortly. It is a pain in the a*se to go through for just one person but at least it keep me busy.


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## 4metals (Apr 13, 2015)

Any large refiner that takes in boards by the ton has a very good idea of the lowest payout per ton and the highest, all based on actual figures and assays. If they offer to buy the boards by the ton, rest assured they are giving you the low end. If you have the ability to witness the sampling and have it analyzed yourself that is how you know what your per ton rates are. The big guys know these figures but they are well guarded corporate secrets. 

Most refiners will charge you by the pound and pay on assay, that is the safest way as a refiner. Don't be naive enough to think that not going to witness sampling will yield the same results.


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## Anonymous (Apr 13, 2015)

patnor1011 said:


> You can find a lot of info online. I just recently found interview with some lady from some US refinery giving out some numbers but I was on a quest of searching numbers for laptops so the only number I remember is that she stated that 200 pieces of laptops will yield 5 oz of gold. I am currently going through 100 laptops with another 100 being delivered shortly. It is a pain in the a*se to go through for just one person but at least it keep me busy.



200 laptop motherboards giving 5oz of gold? Wow that looks high Pat?

Permann if you can trade in 10 tonnes of boards per month then you're doing well mate. Sanity check though. You need to tie up the capital for your ten tonnes per month for at least 2 months before you get a return. 

Assuming you've got the cash then you then have to rely upon the hope that gold doesn't drop whilst they are being refined. You also need to know your product very very well before you venture down this path. Many people blend product to get the best assay and yield utilising various types of product however I will be very surprised if anyone who does this professionally will willingly share that information for nothing because it's usually found out through a long process of learning and hence it's the tools of someone's trade.

Jon


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## perman666 (Apr 13, 2015)

Yes, goal is 10 tons per month.
Now I have >2 tons, mostly class1 boards for making lot of tests.

I am making my own process in this moment. My friend is making big shredder for
me and kind of big ballmill. We already have magnetic metal separator.

Our goal is to turn 100kg of motherboards into one big metal ingot and
to send samples to lot of laboratories for analysis.

Until now with only copper we are on positive zero. With PM we will
have good income. We know our costs now and if potentional deal
with refinery will ve close enough to our targeted money income then I would rather work with rafiners.

Problem is that I don't want to give 10t of boards to Umicore without
any known yields. Too risky for me.


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## acpeacemaker (Apr 13, 2015)

patnor1011 said:


> You can find a lot of info online. I just recently found interview with some lady from some US refinery giving out some numbers but I was on a quest of searching numbers for laptops so the only number I remember is that she stated that 200 pieces of laptops will yield 5 oz of gold. I am currently going through 100 laptops with another 100 being delivered shortly. It is a pain in the a*se to go through for just one person but at least it keep me busy.



That number looks high to me as well, but according to the vice president at Sims Recycling that's about their numbers. Also stated that roughly 10, 000 phones should yield approximately 10 oz of gold? If I remember correctly from numbers posted on the forum in the past it should be closer to the 5 oz range? 
http://tinyurl.com/m2qk9dz
Andrew


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## patnor1011 (Apr 14, 2015)

Yes, this is the link I believe it is the same you found.
https://techpageone.dell.com/tech-culture/how-much-gold-is-in-smartphones-and-computers/

That link is loading very slow for some reason, here is quote from that article:
**********************************************************************************************************************************
To learn more about gold and how it is removed from discarded devices, I spoke to Sean Magann, vice president of sales and marketing for Sims Recycling Solutions—North America, a division of the global re-use and recycling firm Sims Metal Management.

*How much gold is in a smartphone?*

Magann: In very rough numbers, there are 10 troy ounces of gold (or about three-fifths of a pound) per ton of smartphones. Ten thousand phones weigh one ton. [With gold selling for about $1,580 per ounce, that would yield $15,800.]

*How about a laptop?*

Magann: Two hundred laptops would yield five troy ounces of gold.

*How much is in an average desktop?*

Magann: A PC circuit board, where the gold is, weighs about a pound. If you had a ton of those boards, you should have 5 troy ounces of gold.

Are there manufacturers that use more gold than others?

Magann: Computer makers don’t make their circuit boards because they are commodity items. They buy them from third parties. The trend in using gold among all of those companies is definitely down. It’s a costly material, so they are looking for more efficient ways to make the boards, trying to use as little gold as possible.


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## Anonymous (Apr 14, 2015)

perman666 said:


> Yes, goal is 10 tons per month.
> Now I have >2 tons, mostly class1 boards for making lot of tests.
> 
> I am making my own process in this moment. My friend is making big shredder for
> ...



I would recommend caution here. Don't fall into the trap that another member seems to regularly fall into. You can often make as much *real* profit just by trading the boards without all the time and effort required to process them.

It involves less time, less effort, less cash flow, and allows you to expand your operation quicker from the profits.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 21, 2015)

All,

I have been depopulating 800 kg (1600lbs) of types of following boards, and here is some data I found;

Boards that are being manually depopulated;



Close shots of some of the boards,



And here are some data related to those boards, the net weight and percentage of each components;

Total net weight of boards so far depopulated: 146.34 kg (292.68 lbs)
Percentage of IC chips to the net weight: 6.21%
Percentage of SMD capacitors and resistors to the net weight: 1.72%
Percentage of Tantalum capacitors to the net weight: 0.23%

By searching the yield info on each of those components you can estimate the return on large lots of boards. I am planning to incinerate all ICs and SMDs then smelt them.

Regards,
Kj


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## Anonymous (Jun 22, 2015)

kjavanb123 said:


> All,
> 
> I have been depopulating 800 kg (1600lbs) of types of following boards, and here is some data I found;
> 
> ...



Kevin

You've got countless threads where you to purport to demonstrate yields based upon depopulating much larger quantities of boards and sending the sorted, incinerated, shaker tabled, and smelted components to various refiners.

Now you say it's actually 164Kg of boards and you're planning to incinerate stuff. 

Which is it because frankly I'm confused? I'm all ears.


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## Aristo (Jun 22, 2015)

As you have rightly stated, there are wide variances in the motherboards recovery. However, I caution you that it does not matter what your research shows, it will be ultimately up to the "Refiner" to decide the value. "Refiners" will not likely to buy your boards unless its cheap or they advance and "settle" ( :roll: ) after, on the contrary, they will not commit until the material is sampled at their facility. ( Don't get me started on sampling techniques). At this point, you will be at their mercy.
If you are getting boards free, its fine. If you are buying and paying freight, consider other options and arrangements. "Refiners" overhead costs, management, administrative and labour costs + profits will be paid by you. Electronic scrap "Refiners" cannot exist on 8% to 10%.


Good luck.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 22, 2015)

Spaceship,

Those boards which were pulverized, sent to the US and ran on shaker table, and result were analyzed were only 10lbs randomly selected boards from the total of 800kg boards.

This post is related to the same 800kg boards which only 146kg of it so far has been depopulated manually and since I saw this threat about motherboard yield, I decided to post my data here for 146kg, my goal is to depopulate 800kg boards, and incinerate process them.

Regards
Kj


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## patnor1011 (Jun 23, 2015)

It would be better to keep all of this in one thread instead of having all this info thrown over several threads with partial info everywhere you move. 
One job, several problems, countless threads.


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## kjavanb123 (Jun 23, 2015)

I saw this threat as relevent and figured not start a new threat about this data yield.


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## pattt (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi all,

Perman, you all said it in your 2nd sentence, :



> We all know that MB ( PC motherboards ) has several category's.



Kjavanb : how could your "relevant data ?" be the same as for perman? , your 6,21% of ic chips or whatever from your 800 kg wont be the same as in Perman's, even if it was the same % :different years of fabrication, other manufacturers,... all would contribute to a different % of precious metals and so would have a different payout.

Aristo, : get me started on sampling techniques :lol: Its my daily work,.... no don't , because i am not allowed to talk about my job.

I am sure I can say this ,: you are allowed to send a representative, that can oversee the sampling, and that there will be 3 samples ,: 1 for the customer, 1 for the refiner , and 1 for an independent lab in case the customer and the refiner don't agree on the outcome .

And like Aristo said, the refiner won't do it for free :lol:
They have to pay me and all the people that are working 24/24 to get your gold and the rest out of all the scrap.

Just my thoughts about this , and I have just seen there are a lot of responses after I started making this reply, so i'll stop here and do some more reading :lol:

4metals,with all respect, but I can assure you that my sample would be the same if there was a representative or there was not, I can only speak for myself, but we as sample takers have no interest in making things up , its the same machines and the same work for every load , we Would get fired if we didn't follow the procedures that are learnt to us.

Have a nice day and stay save.

Pattt
Edit for a reply to 4metals.


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## dannlee (Jun 23, 2015)

A small puzzle seeing the word threat used repeatedly, here is two word definitions to study...

*threat* Definition: 1. a statement of an intention for hostile action on someone/something. 2. a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger.

*thread* Definition: 1. a long, thin strand of fibers used in sewing or weaving 2. *a group of linked messages posted on an Internet forum that share a common subject or theme.*

:shock: :?: :idea: :roll:


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## patnor1011 (Jun 23, 2015)

kjavanb123 said:


> I saw this threat as relevent and figured not start a new threat about this data yield.



And that is exactly it.
No need to start new thread, if you just keep everything in your thread, that would be relevant. Your info is scattered all over and it is hard to follow your adventures.


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 23, 2015)

4metals said:


> Any large refiner that takes in boards by the ton has a very good idea of the lowest payout per ton and the highest, all based on actual figures and assays. If they offer to buy the boards by the ton, rest assured they are giving you the low end. If you have the ability to witness the sampling and have it analyzed yourself that is how you know what your per ton rates are. The big guys know these figures but they are well guarded corporate secrets.
> 
> Most refiners will charge you by the pound and pay on assay, that is the safest way as a refiner.
> 
> Don't be naive enough to think that not going to witness sampling will yield the same results.


From my experiences, I totally agree with 4metals in every respect. His 1st paragraph tells you how it really is. The last sentence tells you how to end up with the most money you will be able to get - hire a competent "witness" for your material.

I'm sure that 4metals has much more experience in working with "witnesses" than I do. I only worked with them about 6 times and the last time was about 30 years ago. For what it's worth, here's what I think I know about how it works. Please correct me, 4metals, if I screw up.

*What is a "witness"?* A witness (we always called them reps but witness is better) witnesses your material being processed in a refinery until a point is reached where the material is homogeneous enough to take meaningful samples. At that point, he pulls professional quality samples and distributes them to the interested parties.

*Where do you find a good witness?* There are several big, mostly old, extremely honest and reliable companies, that specialize in this sort of thing. All of my 6 dealings involved ASARCO, as the processor, and Ledoux as the witness/sampler/assayer. At one ASARCO plant, in E. Helena, MT, a Ledoux guy had a permanent office. However, since integrity, honesty, reputation, and accuracy are the only things that keep these companies afloat, any hanky-panky would be extremely rare, if it exists at all. Even rumors could bring down the company.
http://www.ledoux.com/

About the only other company I know anything about is Alfred H. Knight, which seems to have locations all over the map. 4metals, I believe, has mentioned several other good ones. There are also small witness companies but, were it me, I would stick with the big, old, expensive ones with the flawless reputations. You can also witness the lot yourself but I can tell you horror stories about this approach from some of the dishonest refiner's I worked for. The refiner is smarter than you and a good experienced witness is smarter than the refiner, when it comes to your bottom line.
http://www.ahkgroup.com/

Since both of these companies are involved in a myriad of other things, similar but, yet, very different, I wasn't able to find what I wanted on the websites. I would strongly suggest calling them (or, whoever) on the phone and explaining your exact situation.

You can deal with a witness company in several different ways. 
(1) You can pay them to just witness and sample. You can then send the samples out or run them yourself. I would think, though, that the refiner would put more credence in assays run by, say, Ledoux, than from Joe Blow, Assayer. Refiners and buyers always try to expand the "gray area" of doubt as to the actual value of material, always in the negative direction. Assays from an obscure assayer can give them an excuse to attempt this ploy.

(2) You can do your own witnessing and sampling and then have a witness company do the assays. Ledoux, e.g., will provide you with perfect assays but an assay only tells you what's in the sample bag. To determine real values, sampling is everything. Large thick books have been written on the science/art/techniques/theories of sampling. It takes years to master it (if anyone ever does). The only sample that is 100% accurate is when the entire lot is the sample. Otherwise, for every group of samples from a lot, there will be a gray area. Let the pros do it. They know how to keep the gray area to a minimum and do it with accuracy.

(3) You can pay them to do everything - advise, witness, sample, assay. That's how I would do it if I had 10,000# of boards per month.

OR,
(4) You can just do everything yourself. For the sake of your bottom line, that's usually a very bad idea.

When you obtain prices from the big guys for these services, I guarantee you will be shocked. The prices seem outlandish but, with large enough lots of material of adequate value, you will invariably end up with more money in the long run. You have to do the math.

*How should you prepare the material?* This could depend on the refinery you use and advise from the witness company. At a minimum, I would remove the bulky iron and aluminum. If the refiner incinerates the boards, it would be a waste of money to shred them. To me, shredding is best used in a buy/sell situation. In the 80s, there were lots of Taiwanese that traveled around the U.S., buying electronic scrap from scrap metal yards. They told me they then had it shredded, sampled, and assayed and then they sold it to processors in Asia. Probably, when the processor got the material, he sampled the material himself and then negotiated the advance to the seller based on the assays. The remainder was likely paid on completion of the processing.

Good luck!


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## 4metals (Jun 23, 2015)

I always witnessed my own material. Witnessing gets you into a lot of refining operations and you see things you would never see when you witness your material. 

Since I had a refinery, I had the capabilities in house to incinerate shred and reduce boards to some extent and I always believed it is better to do some sort of segregation. Chris mentioned removing steel and aluminum, which is a good idea if your material will be shredded and stream sampled as you want your material to be uniform in density if possible. It will never be perfect but taking out the aluminum and steel does help. 10,000 pounds a month will likely be shredded and stream sampled. 

I always did my own assays, I'm kind of old fashioned in that regard, I feel the key to a profitable refinery lies in the laboratory and there's nothing like running assays to learn about your material. Another benefit of running your own assays is you know when an assay is difficult. An assay is difficult when there's something in there that takes some work to reduce to get a good fusion. When you use Ledoux or Inspectorate they do excellent assays but they don't tell you if the fusion was difficult. When a refiner knows a fusion is difficult for a particular material they also know you are having a hard time as well and there is a good chance they will be lowering the reported assay. Why? Because they can! They realize you are probably not using a top end assay house so your assayer is likely missing values in the assay. When a fusion does not go well the results always favor the refiner, because a bad fusion misses values, it doesn't add more. By doing my own assays I knew when I came across difficult samples and if I couldn't get a clean pour from a fusion I knew to send it out. You are your company's best asset when it comes to caring about your assay. (if you are the owner that is) After years of running assays there were very few fusions I couldn't reduce to a smooth bead free pour. But you learn it by doing it. 

Your best payout will be from processing the lot and settling on assayed content. The refiner gets his per pound charges and pays on content. The challenge is making sure all of the content is represented in the sample. It's common sense and knowing what you are looking at. And a lot of Red Bull!


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## 4metals (Jun 23, 2015)

> 4metals,with all respect, but I can assure you that my sample would be the same if there was a representative or there was not, I can only speak for myself, but we as sample takers have no interest in making things up , its the same machines and the same work for every load , we Would get fired if we didn't follow the procedures that are learnt to us.



Pattt,

I know there are honest refiners, and I know that large refiners train their operators to work the same methods whether or not a lot is represented. And that is as it should be. I just slept better when I saw my material processed. It is a business practice that has never failed me, all material I sent out was witnessed, even assayed prepared sweeps which were being re-blended and sampled. Last time I was in Brussels I was diving at Nemo33. Maybe next trip I can do some diving and sampling!


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## perman666 (Jul 12, 2015)

After I started this thread I still don't know numbers.

Can anybody send me in message some numbers from
rafinerys like SAFINA, UMICORE or similar. Not for free offcourse.

This week I am going to buy first bigger lot, arround 250 tons of mini towers.
So I need to find the best way to get more money out.


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## Anonymous (Jul 12, 2015)

You're asking people to effectively give up trade information here. How about you reverse the situation and tell how much you can buy this stuff for then I'll tell you whether or not you can make a profit on it? 

You can do it by PM if you like.

Jon


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## g_axelsson (Jul 12, 2015)

How could you ever use another members numbers? The amount of gold and other precious metals would be different depending on the composition of the boards. On the list I made (referenced above) the numbers vary a lot between batches.

The only way you can do an educated guess is to use the pay-out rates of the refiners and then do an assay of a representative sample of the lot you are buying. Send some well sampled and mixed parts out to an assayer. After that you should be able to calculate the amount of values you can extract from the scrap. Subtract operating expenses, salaries, interest on investment, garbage disposal fees... and so on. Then you know what you can offer and what you can earn from the deal.

Other members number are interesting but I think of minor importance to others.

Göran


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## perman666 (Jul 13, 2015)

It is no secret,
I got offer to buy 250tons of older computers, mostly mini towers
and desktop cases. Everything is inside, all components. 

Price for 250t is 35700$ or 0.14$ for kilogram.
So I am looking the best way to make some fast money here.

I am not asking nothing for free, there is already 3 person
from this forum that I work with them. 







spaceships said:


> You're asking people to effectively give up trade information here. How about you reverse the situation and tell how much you can buy this stuff for then I'll tell you whether or not you can make a profit on it?
> 
> You can do it by PM if you like.
> 
> Jon


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## Anonymous (Jul 13, 2015)

Thanks for the information perman - that's great. 

I wasn't trying to be harsh I was being businesslike. 

If you're paying £100 per tonne for older PC base units then you'll be absolutely fine on a batch of 250 tonnes. Frankly I would buy them from you at substantially more than that in one piece as would anyone who professionally dismantled this kind of equipment. 

Feel free to drop me a PM and I'm happy to help and thank you for sharing the information. 

Jon


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## Todor (Jul 13, 2015)

The thing is, how much the last player will tell you the truth and how big player you are. Iam not talking personaly for you Perman. But after 4 years in this game (e-scrap and convertors) i found my way- quick sale, every month, i collect good amount of e-scrap every month. The analisys and all that staff is for the bigger players, who collect more than 150 tonnes e-scrap per year and 50 tones of convertor`s monolit and for every bath a representitive goes personaly to refinery to witness all the process and even then you can`t be sure that the refinery will tell you the truth(lets put it this way).

I experienced it on my own back and with no many losses and i found my way. When i started i was thinking that quick money will be made but after 4 years iam sure that this is verry tought bussines- markets are playing every day, growing concurration, small margins, tough clients(every one wants all the pressious metals) and so on and so on.

So you want us to put some numbers, i think pointless if you are smaller they will tell you whethever they want and you can`t do nothing.

And pardon me but 250 tones of desctops are like 100 000 pieces of PC. I dont think someone got them in one place and will sell them for the price of the Iron unless he is from Nigeria. Sorry if Iam wrong here.


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## silversaddle1 (Jul 13, 2015)

250 tons of towers for less than scrap steel price? Hummmmm, better see it for yourself with your own eyes before handing over any checks/payments. What is that, 15 semi loads at least?


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## Todor (Jul 13, 2015)

Todor said:


> The thing is, how much the last player will tell you the truth and how big player you are. Iam not talking personaly for you Perman. But after 4 years in this game (e-scrap and convertors) i found my way- quick sale, every month, i collect good amount of e-scrap every month. The analisys and all that staff is for the bigger players, who collect more than 150 tonnes e-scrap per year and 50 tones of convertor`s monolit and for every batch a representitive goes personaly to refinery to witness all the process and even then you can`t be sure that the refinery will tell you the truth(lets put it this way).
> 
> I experienced it on my own back and with no many losses and i found my way. When i started i was thinking that quick money will be made but after 4 years iam sure that this is verry tought bussines- markets are playing every day, growing concurration, small margins, tough clients(every one wants all the pressious metals) and so on and so on.
> 
> ...


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## perman666 (Jul 14, 2015)

E-scrap is at an big distributor of Lenovo, HP, Dell etc.
If they don't sell to me then they need to pay for each kg of E-Waste
to other companies that will take care for that.

I am the only company in my country that buys and pays E-scrap.
In all other cases if you have E-Scrap YOU/YOUR COMPANY need to pay to the recycling company.
That's the low in my country.

For now I manage to buy and sell 30tons and there is enough scrap
for easily 10t per month. And not Nigeria, I am in central EU 

Perman666


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