# Eco-goldex CYANIDE Leach



## patnor1011

Does anyone have experience with this process? 
It looks interesting, what do you think about it? It may be solution for processing pins and plated material from electronics, it looks like cyanide leach but bit more on safer side of things.

http://eco-goldex.com/
http://eco-friendly-gold-leaching.com/index.php

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL1cskcYbvw[/youtube]


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## alexxx

I just spoke with the guy. He is not far from my shop, I might grab a 1lb sample bag to test it this week.

Like cyanide it is supposed to attack copper substrate. He is not sure if it will dissolve Pd. It will dissolve Ag.
Claims it will dissolve 1 kg of PMs for 1 Lb of reagent.
PMs could be reclaimed with smb, activated carbon, zinc...

Says that PH should not become acidic or SO2 gas will be formed

about $1 USD per Lb if you buy by the Ton.

I'm still curious to know more about what this product contains, especially for the disposable part... How to handle wastes...


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## jonn

Potassium ferrocyanide


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## alexxx

jonn said:


> Potassium ferrocyanide



still scary...

edit -> too scary for me to try...


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## Anonymous

Read up about it. It really isn't as scarey as you think.


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## modtheworld44

spaceships said:


> Read up about it. It really isn't as scarey as you think.



What spaceships said.I just read there entire website,and am going to call and ask about that free sample tomorrow.If you do the research it will pay for it's self in full every single time.



modtheworld44


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## patnor1011

I went through msds sheet posted on his forum. While I do have healthy dose of respect towards cyanide and concentrated sulfuric his process does look tempting. He does sell smaller quantities on eBay.


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## jeneje

There is an old saying,,,,"If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is" There are chemists here on this forum that washes there hands in cyanide to clean the gold off of them, but it can be deadly if misused. I would want to know for sure all the details first.

_*The difference between stupidity and wisdom,,,wisdom lets stupidity go first!!! *_

Ken


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## alexxx

jeneje said:


> There is an old saying,,,,"If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is" There are chemists here on this forum that washes there hands in cyanide to clean the gold off of them, but it can be deadly if misused. I would want to know for sure all the details first.
> 
> _*The difference between stupidity and wisdom,,,wisdom lets stupidity go first!!! *_
> 
> Ken



Very true.
What bothers me also is :

- From the look in the video, the substance doesn't look quite "homogeneous" and some black debris of an unknown thing doesn't dissolve.
Anything could be mixed in there...
- Always frisky when buying anything from China, or a chinese source... Do you really know whats in there ? Any chance that what you are buying is contaminated with anything else ?


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## goldsilverpro

Their MSDS - in percent

NaOH ---------------------------------5-10
CO(NH2)3 = Urea--------------------15-30
NaCO3---------------------------------5-10
CaO------------------------------------20
K3Fe(CN)6.10H2O--------------------5-30
Na2SO4--------------------------------2-10
NaBr------------------------------------5-10


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## etack

Shouldn't this be red?

The K3Fe(CN)6 in my sons crystal growing kit is red. When mixed with water still red. 

Eric

Might have to try it for fun.


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## kmann1969

Interesting, please post results and findings whoever tries this product. 

Thanks
Kevin


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## upcyclist

spaceships said:


> Read up about it. It really isn't as scarey as you think.



That's what I was thinking--aren't ferrocyanides actually pretty stable? see also: Prussian Blue


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## modtheworld44

upcyclist said:


> spaceships said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read up about it. It really isn't as scarey as you think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I was thinking--aren't ferrocyanides actually pretty stable? see also: Prussian Blue
Click to expand...


Potassium ferrocyanide is used in food additives and wine making per their website.So everyone has probably already ate or drank some at some point in their life and did not even know it.



modtheworld44


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## patnor1011

Another product from ecogoldex - this time leach do not call for initial ph adjustment.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3RE6RS04zc[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLsC2SNfURA&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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## Irons

Potassium Ferrocyanide is a strong reducing agent and should be kept away from oxidizers. It can react violently.


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## patnor1011

Irons said:


> Potassium Ferrocyanide is a strong reducing agent and should be kept away from oxidizers. It can react violently.



I am testing that leach as we speak. While it stripped some boards (blue boards which are from under touchpad on laptops) really fast - within few hours, other like the same but green boards are going very slow. I made test batch with different type of fingers and plated boards and the only stripped so far after about 48 hours are blue I mentioned and boards from back of LCD screens. The rest is showing different stages like some fingers missing on close cut ram fingers but it look like slow process. I am in no hurry but I would certainly like if I could figure out how to speed up process. 
I do not want to experiment wildly with that as it does contain some cyanide but I was thinking what may happen if I introduce air bubbler or perhaps some hydrogen peroxide but your post made me wonder - is it something I can try or rather not?


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## upcyclist

patnor1011 said:


> I do not want to experiment wildly with that as it does contain some cyanide but I was thinking what may happen if I introduce air bubbler or perhaps some hydrogen peroxide but your post made me wonder - is it something I can try or rather not?


I don't know much on this one, but I would definitely try a bubbler or agitation/stirrer bar (with proper fume/splatter precautions) before I went with oxidizing agents*.

*Other than air itself, hehe.


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## patnor1011

5 days in test batch and while I can say solution is working leaching is very slow. Solution when settled is nice cloudy yellow. 
I decided to try to introduce air and placed air bubbler inside this morning. After about 10 hours I can say that it look that air made it go faster. I see gold being dissolved on more pieces which looked untouched in the morning. I will leave it like that with air bubbles for couple of days.


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## patnor1011

OK. I do not have time right now to go in any detail but to make long time story short I can say that ecogoldex works exactly as advertised, gold is disappearing like snow in august. I guess I can safely say that it will dissolve gold in a speed I cant compare to anything I tried so far. I would compare it to straight cyanide - it is that fast. 
Now I am in a process of trying various processes to reclaim that dissolved gold. I do intend to try carbon and SMB. If anyone here do have experience with thio leaching I do have couple of questions. Is there any other process to drop gold from base leach with ph 11-12? What method is used to test for gold in solution like this?
I am making a lot of pictures of various material before and after leach but I will be able to post some of them over the weekend only. Too busy right now.


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## Platdigger

So, is this actually any safer to use than (as you say) "straight cyanide"?


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## FrugalRefiner

Thank you for sharing your experience with this product with the forum Pat! You are the gold standard for forum members. 8) 

Dave


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## patnor1011

Platdigger said:


> So, is this actually any safer to use than (as you say) "straight cyanide"?



Well, I would say so. I do not think that you can buy cyanide and have it delivered by regular post. I am right in the middle of testing this leach and so far I am amazed at speed and ease with which it dissolve gold plating. As I said next step is to get that gold out. Once I will have all sorted I will post everything in here. Some material took couple hours but when air is introduced it reduced processing time to mere minutes. It was literally disappearing in front of my eyes. I did not processed any huge quantities. It was rather small batches of various types of plated material I have. 
Like copper lid from P4 CPU with plating inside that lid. I did about 40 pieces and gold dissolved in less than 10 minutes. Stirring is the key here. Material need to be stirred and moved around so liquid is in motion. That was partially accomplished using fish tank air bubbler and occasional stirring of material. I do believe that the more often you stir the faster it work. 
It sure looks even faster and safer than sulfuric cell but as I said I am in the middle and I just removed gold plating - now I need to get it back. 
When I will crack this one I will post as much as I can.
One note - I am testing their original powder called eco-goldex where ph need to be adjusted prior leaching. -like first video I posted on start of this thread. 
They do have new product called eco-goldex E where you do not need to adjust ph and they do sell it with another powder which do precipitate gold out of solution after it is stripped. -last 2 videos I posted here few days ago.


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## justinhcase

That seems like good news.
I was not looking forward to clearing the decks and having to run a sulphuric acid cell.
But as the decomposition of Potassium Ferrocyanide was one of the original ways to manufacture cyanide.
Is there not the potential for accidental decomposition during processing.
When heated to decomposition or if it comes in contact with acid or acid fumes it emits toxic fumes of cyanides. 
All situations that can happen in a work space quite easily.
even if it is used in table salt and fertiliser I think it should be treated with similar safety precautions as the other cyanide salt's.
On which the advice varies. all the civil lab's and university's specify a completely separate working spaces and equipment for the use of cyanide. along with strict working practises such as always having a buddy out side the work aria observing and specialist medical kit. Then decontamination that would gladden the heart of any one with O.C.D.
But the attitude and working practices observable with in the preciouses metals industry seem to suggest that is over kill.
Cyanide poisoning is one of the things I would not want to learn about by trial and error.


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## patnor1011

Cyanide, nitric, chlorine, smb or hot sulfuric fumes are all deadly no doubt about that. To discuss which one is more deadlier than the other is in my opinion pointless, there are many other factors involved when using any of that. Yes they sure can kill, it is on individual to use them in a way to stay safe. Accidents can and will happen. I am in no way affiliated with eco-goldex and I am not promoting their product. I had impression that people would appreciate process that may be faster, cheaper or that can produce less chemical waste. 
I do have feeling that people here do have rather negative view and various concerns. I do not have any problem with that, anyone is entitled to his/her opinion, it just make me wonder if I should continue to try to share what I am doing when it seems that people are not ready for it.


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## justinhcase

Sorry if I seemed unappreciative.
I am looking for a better alternative for plated item's quite keenly.
I was hoping for some clarification on the finer point's of use from people better qualified and experienced than I am.
A process has to be looked at completely under all conceivable local conditions before going forward.
And the accidental production of cyanide is what concerned me about the process.
J


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## Platdigger

Same here Pat, I do appreciate all the work you are putting into this and your willingness to share.
And I understand different forms of the same element can be fairly inert or benign.
I mean as we all know sodium metal is a very reactive metal and chlorine gas can be lethal, but combine the two and we have common table salt.
Also Deano posted about cyanate being easy to get and I guess unregulated in Australia.
I would just want to know if it was possible to emit or create cyanide gas from potassium ferrocyanide, and if so, under what conditions.


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## Luis

Hi Friends, motivated for this very interesting post I decided to say hello for first time, in more than a year reading the forum occasionally, and to thank Pathnor for sharing his finds. I'm not chemical I am inclined to those alternative methods of recovering some gold for hobby. I have been collecting material for more than 3 years (part time scrapper) and I don't have access to nitric and pure sulfuric acid like most of beginners in this forum. this methods like the one seen on Leo Chang videos are amazing and you are the perfect guys to test them I keep reading this valuable information. I reach this forum following Moose the scrapper videos and others and now I see the difference of watching lots or youtube videos and reading here comments from the professionals. I'm very patient and learned a lot of things here. it is amazing to get gold metal without mining tons of rocks and dirt.I have read many postings here it feels like I know many of you. thanks to all here for that valuable information. 

Luis (Puerto Rico)


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## FrugalRefiner

Welcome on your first post Luis!

Dave


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## ettran

patnor1011 said:


> Cyanide, nitric, chlorine, smb or hot sulfuric fumes are all deadly no doubt about that. To discuss which one is more deadlier than the other is in my opinion pointless, there are many other factors involved when using any of that. Yes they sure can kill, it is on individual to use them in a way to stay safe. Accidents can and will happen. I am in no way affiliated with eco-goldex and I am not promoting their product. I had impression that people would appreciate process that may be faster, cheaper or that can produce less chemical waste.
> I do have feeling that people here do have rather negative view and various concerns. I do not have any problem with that, anyone is entitled to his/her opinion, it just make me wonder if I should continue to try to share what I am doing when it seems that people are not ready for it.


 Hi Pat , following your post . it is very interesting new way to recover gold plating from e-waste .I even bought a sample kit , but will wait for your results,ed.


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## Luis

yes is my very first post thanks , after more than a year reading everything that happens as an spectator. I started buying pathnor cd on 2015 (very instructive) an taking ideas from here to there an enjoying how everybody give opinions. and following this interesting thread. I'm sure that much members are waiting results and researching about this new methods. (the safer and cheapest way to get the gold out) it is the second time I heard above this since the Leo Chang on you tube (amazing secret formula?) I have a lot of material in storage but I can wait. with time people still finding newer ways and combinations for gold recovering technics. also enjoy reading those old posts when everybody realize that the best part of the BGAs was the top black epoxy. when I started I was saving the green fiber and throwing away the top part. it took me weeks to really find the bonding wires on the chips. now I use a cheap USB microscopic to spot wire bonding when prospecting chips. thanks for the welcome

Luis.


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## Phishin_ca

patnor1011 said:


> Cyanide, nitric, chlorine, smb or hot sulfuric fumes are all deadly no doubt about that. To discuss which one is more deadlier than the other is in my opinion pointless, there are many other factors involved when using any of that. Yes they sure can kill, it is on individual to use them in a way to stay safe. Accidents can and will happen. I am in no way affiliated with eco-goldex and I am not promoting their product. I had impression that people would appreciate process that may be faster, cheaper or that can produce less chemical waste.
> I do have feeling that people here do have rather negative view and various concerns. I do not have any problem with that, anyone is entitled to his/her opinion, it just make me wonder if I should continue to try to share what I am doing when it seems that people are not ready for it.



Pat, please continue with your posting on this subject. How are trace metals recovered and the waste disposed of? I am sure that it is only my ignorance that I have not found that information yet. If the method gains popularity, this will most likely be the starting point for future posts and it would be awesome to discuss the full cycle (all the way to disposal).

I definitely see your point that they are all deadly, but anything with the word cyanide has a unique place in the hearts of people who watch Investigation Discovery :shock: . I see any (safe) experimentation as beneficial and look forward to seeing this thread progress. That being said, I have enough learning on my plate that I will sit here and watch with peaked interest as I work through my current projects. My post was meant to be one of encouragement and to show my interest in the topic. Please continue!!
Shawn


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## kazamir

Eco-goldex sells this reagent for 2850.00 USD per ton.

John Guo Cell: 438-825-5288


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## patnor1011

Well, I did not discovered this method or leach so there is no credit to be earned and I am not after appreciation or attention seeker. I was pointed to it by another member and wanted to try it on. I am by no means any expert on thio or cyanide based gold recovery. I started this thread to encourage people to engage in discussion I was hoping that some experts in this field may chip in with some pointers and help. Perhaps it will take time, I need to be more patient and somebody will come eventually and help us to crack this one.

There is no doubt this leach work. It work and it work fast. Now I am going through internet (which is full of good and bad advice and info) trying to figure out what next. 
I am looking for method how to tell where my gold is as it look there is not much in a liquor itself, color is pale yellow so most of it settled on bottom in a form of blackish powder. 
I want to find safe way on how to proceed with this powder and how to test solution itself. I tried to contact seller of this leach but he may be out of country or perhaps busy so I guess while he is the first one where I do look for answer maybe there is somebody here who may know a bit or offer some advice. 
This leach do have potential to be extremely cheap compared to classic acid stripping or recovery most of hobbyists use today. 
Times when I was jumping head on in everything without hesitation are long forgotten, now I have no problem to wait till I find proper solution before I even try to experiment.


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## patnor1011

I will upload more pictures later on with better resolution but just to show how it look like here are few.


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## patnor1011

Some more pictures - before and after. All of these were done in less than 15 minutes with air added and stirred like 5-6 times during 15 minutes.


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## patnor1011

4 more same as previous post.


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## patnor1011

2 more same as last 2 posts (about 15 min with air added) 

small bit of plating remained close to center piece with solder. About 1% of visible gold exposed to leach.


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## patnor1011

From all different batches there were only few pieces with undissolved gold. I simply picked them and included them to next batch of material and they were stripped. 
When I finished I had only clean metal with all gold dissolved.


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## Barren Realms 007

patnor1011 said:


> From all different batches there were only few pieces with undissolved gold. I simply picked them and included them to next batch of material and they were stripped.
> When I finished I had only clean metal with all gold dissolved.



Pat, it looks like the stuff is doing a good job. When you get to find out about recovering the gold from the solution see if you can find out if the solution can be reused over again or if it is just a one time usage deal. Also if you would ask if it can be used for the recovery of other PGM's.

Will the solution attack copper or other base metals and id there a possability that the precious metals will cement back onto the base metals.

Thanks for doing this and keep up the good work.


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## patnor1011

Barren Realms 007 said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From all different batches there were only few pieces with undissolved gold. I simply picked them and included them to next batch of material and they were stripped.
> When I finished I had only clean metal with all gold dissolved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pat, it looks like the stuff is doing a good job. When you get to find out about recovering the gold from the solution see if you can find out if the solution can be reused over again or if it is just a one time usage deal. Also if you would ask if it can be used for the recovery of other PGM's.
> 
> Will the solution attack copper or other base metals and id there a possability that the precious metals will cement back onto the base metals.
> 
> Thanks for doing this and keep up the good work.
Click to expand...


This is only me thinking loud but I was told that activated carbon will suck out gold from solution. If solution will be reusable after carbon treatment I do not know but I am not very much concerned by possible reuse. He is selling 400g sample bags. According to him 400g bag can dissolve about 1 kilogram of gold. I did quite a bunch of material and all of this with about 500ml of water and about 5-7g of leach powder. I cleaned material with spray bottle and at the end I had about 1l of solution which is still working, I just tested it on another piece of material. 
I suspect I can do another bunch of material with that 1l. According to him powder work on gold and silver. 
So as far so good and I can say that only small bit of it will do quite a lot of material and price of powder is negligible compared to other chemicals or methods available. It may be a good idea to organize some group buy and then price can be even smaller. 

I do not want to encourage anyone to buy that leach and use it to all of their material. I mean not till we figure out how to finish whole process. I did quite a lot of samples of various material and first I need to be able to hold that gold in hand. I estimate that I should have at least a gram of gold in there. 

Solution will attack copper furiously as I have found out in my first attempt. Result was some powder on the bottom, clean stripped fingers (first picture first 4 fingers mostly clean stripped from all metal, while other 3 fingers and on my other pictures you can see nickel barrier still there) and solution turned deep dark green. This happen because Ph was too low. Around 7-8. I did used paper to measure it and color was dark green. My next batches which I posted pictures from I kept Ph at 11, color deep dark blue and only gold dissolved, not even nickel was attacked and exposed copper looked still like copper. 

I need to figure out how to test solution for presence of gold. He suggest that when solution is loaded with gold stannous show it as blue stain, I tried stannous but my solution is just pale yellow and not much of a reaction when tested with stannous. I made stannous from water and anhydrous tin oxide, I did not wanted to use HCl on leach solution due to obvious concern with K3Fe(CN)6 presence even that it is small. 
There must be something resembling cementation going on. I have started with clear solution with leach powder completely dissolved and ended up with blackish powder on bottom when settled. I suspect gold will be there. I am now trying to figure out what to do with this powder.


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## g_axelsson

A very interesting thread, thanks Pat!

As with all chemicals we use we should check the MSDS for it. [1]
As "Hazardous Reactions" only "Contact with acids liberates very toxic gas." is listed and among toxic products are hydrogen cyanide. It suggests that just as with cyanide, any acids should be kept far away.

As for toxicity, it is a lot less dangerous than potassium cyanide, LD50 is 3.6 g/kg [1] compared to 7.5 mg/kg [2] for potassium cyanide, a difference of 500 times less toxic.
The risk of harm from accidental transfer via fingers or dust is a lot better than with straight cyanide.

If the end result from Eco-goldex leach is the same as with cyanide, a cyanide gold complex, then the gold should be possible to recover in the same way as with cyanide. For example by cementation with zinc or electrowinning via Deano's carbon felt cell.

Eagerly waiting for the next installment in this thread. Will he be able to get his gold back? 8) 

[1] https://www.fishersci.com/shop/msdsproxy?productName=AC211095000 MSDS Potassium ferrocyanide trihydrate
[2] https://www.fishersci.com/shop/msdsproxy?productName=P223I100 MSDS Potassium cyanide

Stay safe!

Göran


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## g_axelsson

etack said:


> Shouldn't this be red?
> 
> The K3Fe(CN)6 in my sons crystal growing kit is red. When mixed with water still red.
> 
> Eric
> 
> Might have to try it for fun.


I had to do some googling for this... 8) 
The red crystals are potassium ferr*i*cyanide ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ferricyanide ) not potassium ferr*o*cyanide ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ferrocyanide ).

Another good example of how important spelling is in chemistry.

Göran


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## patnor1011

I do need to order some more reagents like activated charcoal, that should come soon and powdered zinc. I only found some bits of zinc but I do not have any powder.
I tried to cut some small pieces of zinc, placed them in small 5ml bottle and put in some pregnant leach. Overnight they become covered with black residue. There is also some fine black powder particles on bottom. I tried to scrape zinc to make smallest possible dust and did the same. I will see if there will be the same reaction. 
I would love to see Deano back, I would love to get some advice from him.


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## upcyclist

patnor1011 said:


> I only found some bits of zinc but I do not have any powder.


Darn, I wish you were stateside--I'd just throw some powder at you in the mail.


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## Barren Realms 007

patnor1011 said:


> I do need to order some more reagents like activated charcoal, that should come soon and powdered zinc. I only found some bits of zinc but I do not have any powder.
> I tried to cut some small pieces of zinc, placed them in small 5ml bottle and put in some pregnant leach. Overnight they become covered with black residue. There is also some fine black powder particles on bottom. I tried to scrape zinc to make smallest possible dust and did the same. I will see if there will be the same reaction.
> I would love to see Deano back, I would love to get some advice from him.



I think Deano still has a few weeks till he get's back.

Might try some air circulating the solution or put it on a stir plate with the solid zinc.


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## patnor1011

Perhaps I should have wait till I will have all of this cracked. I was bit impatient and now everyone must wait :mrgreen: 
I ordered some coconut shell carbon but it is been 3 weeks and still no show, postman is getting allergic off me asking him every day about package from Philippines. 
My zinc powder is also on route and form Ukraine so it also take few more days.
And to make matters worse I just found that I did not closed container with smb so now I do have yellowish block of something inside container. I like to work with "fresh" ingrediences so I just ordered new. 

It is no problem, that dissolved gold is not going anywhere. 

I am also up to neck in processing several buckets worth of backlog of IC's which I incinerated during winter. I am pedantic and slow and I like to have silicone cores removed, they take heavy toll on my pans when broken to small pieces. I do not want to even start about small BGA IC from RAM, they all do have pieces of fabric inside which I am removing too as when I crush them that fabric break and form small bundles. Sorry for morning rant...


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## kazamir

I believe this leaching reagent has eluded the small refiner.

If this is the case it means larger quantities of e scrap will be processed which may cause a shortage for large e scrap buyers like Boardsort and a price increase for e scrap.

I recommend that members hang on to even their marginal e scrap until Patnor and others inform us of their results.

Eco-goldex reagent is selling for 2850.00 USD per ton. but it is difficult to contact them.


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## etack

g_axelsson said:


> etack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't this be red?
> 
> The K3Fe(CN)6 in my sons crystal growing kit is red. When mixed with water still red.
> 
> Eric
> 
> Might have to try it for fun.
> 
> 
> 
> I had to do some googling for this... 8)
> The red crystals are potassium ferr*i*cyanide ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ferricyanide ) not potassium ferr*o*cyanide ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ferrocyanide ).
> 
> Another good example of how important spelling is in chemistry.
> 
> Göran
Click to expand...




Cool I just cut and searched off of GSP MSDS he listed for this material.

He had K3 not K4 




> Their MSDS - in percent
> 
> NaOH ---------------------------------5-10
> CO(NH2)3 = Urea--------------------15-30
> NaCO3---------------------------------5-10
> CaO------------------------------------20
> K3Fe(CN)6.10H2O--------------------5-30
> Na2SO4--------------------------------2-10
> NaBr------------------------------------5-10
> 
> _________________
> GoldSilverPro's eBook For Sale. viewtopic.php?f=84&t=22327&p=233617#p233617
> ________________________
> "The refiner is always the last liar." Louis Labash, 1979
> ________________________



You are correct about spellings and numbers!!!

Eric


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## FrugalRefiner

The error is understandable. Even on the Eco-goldex web site, they mention on the Product page: 


> *Reagent Major Chemical Compositions:* This is a modified lime sulfur synthetic solution (MLSSS) reagent. The main ingredients include: LSSS, stabilizer (Sodium hexametaphosphate); oxidants (calcium peroxide and potassium ferricyanide); and additive (Sodium bromide, potassium bromide).


but later on the page they say:


> *Reagent Major Chemical Compositions:* This low toxic eco-friendly gold leaching reagent consists of the following major chemicals: Urea, sodium hydroxide, sodium sulfate, Ammonium bicarbonate, sodium (potassium) ferrocyanide.


According to wikipedia:


wikipedia said:


> Ferrocyanide may undergo oxidation, resulting in ferricyanide:
> [Fe(CN)6]4− ⇌ [Fe(CN)6]3− + e−


Dave


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## 10wt_Percent

EcoGoldex stripped audio connectors 









concurrently-forming black precipitate









I found reagent consumption to be "nominal" .. it took a 400g. bag of ECO-Goldy to strip the audio 
connectors as seen in the top pic. And to generate that black precipitate took two bags (as there 
were more connectors than pictured .. twice as much).

All told: about 18 grams of dry black precipitate and around 6 litres of "apple juice" pregnant leach and around 3.5 kg of (deplated) audio jacks -- requiring 2 x 400g of EcoGdlx and around 14 days for digestion.


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## patnor1011

Just noticed your post, consumption looks too high. I did about a kilogram of gold plated material and about 300g of fingers and I did it in about 10g of powder. And out of it 5g (first batch) was turned bad as it had only about 7-8 ph so it attacked copper and turned green on about 150g of fingers. 
I stripped all the rest I mentioned with just 5g of reagent and 1l of water.


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## 10wt_Percent

I found (that) in order to continue to generate black precipitate it necessitated the addition of 10 gram allotments of Eco. This would "turn-over" in 24 hrs .. generating (additional) black precipitate and necessitating the addition of another 10 gram "shot" of Eco-in-water. The stuff "goes pretty quick" is my
experience with reasonably-aggressive "deplate-ment" of audio jacks. It's my impression (that) I was 
operating in a "rate-limiting" regime. I found that in the case of the presumably more-heavily plated audio 
jack style connectors; I had to "milk" the plating off with progressive additions (of EcoX).

Progressive additions of GoldeX and intermediate "decantings" to recover the black precipitate 

Decanting to consist of swirling the leach/feedstock bucket; to encourage black precip into suspension .. 
then pour off (all) liquid into settling vessel .. allow to settle 15 minutes .. pour liquid back into primary
leach pot .. all of it except for the last little bit -- containing the black precipitate. Add fresh Goldex to 
leach pot .. repeat ^^ as required .. occasional swirling of the leach pot provides an indication of how much black precipitate has formed .. i.e. is it time to transfer .. time to add more Goldex? You soon develop an eye for how things are progressing. 

Patnor, perhaps it's about plating thickness .. all my runs have been on plated lugs and audio connectors. 

I really can't imagine getting by with much less consumption .. it kinda appears to "grind to a halt" (pretty 
quickly) if I don't keep topping up on the Goldex (and continue to remove the accumulated precipitate.)

Trust this makes sense. We encourage questions and comments! 8)


----------



## kazamir

I don't expect any answers now but here are some questions for thought.

Is there an effect on plastics in the eco-goldex solution?
Is there a reaction to steel [ like Geo's concrete mixer]?
Does eco-goldex dissolve tin.?
Can silver also be deplated?


----------



## patnor1011

Perhaps it was working faster with less concentrated leach on my side because I used fish tank bubbler. Dunno but it might be it.

Is there an effect on plastics in the eco-goldex solution? Didn't try that yet.
Is there a reaction to steel [ like Geo's concrete mixer]? Dont think so, all material I tried appear intact just gold stripped
Does eco-goldex dissolve tin.? It does attack other metals if ph is not optimal 9-12. I got less and now I do have green solution, that was first batch where everything was stripped off fingers. Tin, nickel, gold, copper... all of it
Can silver also be deplated? It should. I will try some keyboard mylars next week. Have no clue where or how that silver present itself when/if stripped, I will try filtered leach without any solid particle.


----------



## goldsilverpro

In their literature, it mentions using SMB to reclaim the gold. Anyone tried it?


----------



## 10wt_Percent

kazamir said:


> Is there an effect on plastics in the eco-goldex solution?
> Is there a reaction to steel [ like Geo's concrete mixer]?
> Does eco-goldex dissolve tin.?
> Can silver also be deplated?



plastic is affected by the caustic nature of the EcoGoldeX solution .. it (the plastic) basically slowly begins to breakdown. You see this "degenerate plastic" floating around ... it's easy to sieve out (thankfully) .. just pour solution through aquarium-style fish net and you are good to go!

are there any adverse effects associated with the presence of iron and iron alloys? I'm not 100% sure - to be honest! The literature suggests EcoGoldex as useful for (the) stripping of rough e-scrap feed. This would seem to suggest no adverse effects due to presence of iron. I guess the test would be to run side by side leach tests .. otherwise identical "setups" -- except one "test stand" has steel wool added to the mix. See how things compare from the deplating perspective.

I found header-style pins much more reluctant to deplate than the more "monolithic" plated audio style connectors. Not sure why. I employed what I considered a pretty potent mix of pH adjusted (11.25)
EcoGoldex - No response for 10 days and then slowly it deplated (and not particularly thoroughly). 

^^ it would stand to reason (that) header pins would be the test-feed of choice for assessing the viability (and variability) of the EcoGoldex strategy. i.e. figure out how to best strip header pins and you are on the right road (to riches)!

Time-lapse videography might shed some light on the otherwise interminably slow reaction kinetics. i.e. get a better fix on gestation periods and "reaction cycles".

I'd take this opportunity to stress the importance of good housekeeping i.e. keeping similar stock together .. (remove "freak" feedstock that may have responded (deplated) very quickly). Having deplated pieces loiter in the leach pot promotes cloudyness (as does leaving stock uncovered by leach for too long during "de
cantation"). I believe this is due to the formation of various metallic hydroxides. These are probably deleterious to Au dissolution.

Hope this helps .. it can be tricky to get (and keep) all things firing on all cylinders .. but through good house-keeping practice; things should stay reasonably-readily on-course. Happy trails!

8)


----------



## Deano

Potassium ferrocyanide will disassociate in solution to form ferrocyanide complexes, these complexes will decompose to form free cyanide.

Effectively what you are doing is running a cyanide leach where the cyanide concentration is controlled by pH, temperature and UV level.

If you have a cyanide probe you can optimise the conditions to get the maximum free cyanide in solution for leaching.

If you get the conditions wrong you will precipitate out cyanide-metal salts.

If you block out all UV light there is minimal decomposition of the ferrocyanide complex and virtually no free cyanide is formed.

Effectively you are performing a cyanide leach but using a much more intricate method of producing the cyanide complex than just dissolving straight sodium or calcium cyanide in water.

If what you want to do is to use this leach to dissolve gold the question is why would you use the more difficult route rather than just use straight cyanide.

Note that when you precipitate out cyanide - metal salts you will co-precipitate gold cyanide complexes.

By starting with the ferrocyanide complexes you are giving the leach the best conditions for precipitation to occur.

Any gold cyanide complexes in solution will respond to the traditional recovery methods of activated carbon and zinc etc.

Deano


----------



## Platdigger

Thank you Sir! I, as well as others have been waiting for your input on this.


----------



## patnor1011

Indeed, we are very grateful for your insight and opinion.


----------



## Platdigger

So it looks to me a guy would be better off to just use cyanide straight up. 
At least one would know what he was up against.
And if I understand a post Deano just made to another thread, cyanide at 2 percent concentration would not have to be monitored for the level of ph.


----------



## patnor1011

Sure, but not everyone do have access to cyanide, this method then looks far better than AP, sulfuric cell, crockpot... mainly cost and time wise.


----------



## patnor1011

goldsilverpro said:


> In their literature, it mentions using SMB to reclaim the gold. Anyone tried it?



I tried SMB, it was my first try and nothing happened just some fizzing. Potential use of SMB was clarified recently by owner of eco-goldex but I would not go in details here as that may give people wrong ideas which may result in fatal accident.

I do believe that zinc and/or activated carbon should be explored by anyone wishing to use eco-goldex leach. Forget SMB.


----------



## ettran

patnor1011 said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> In their literature, it mentions using SMB to reclaim the gold. Anyone tried it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried SMB, it was my first try and nothing happened just some fizzing. Potential use of SMB was clarified recently by owner of eco-goldex but I would not go in details here as that may give people wrong ideas which may result in fatal accident.
> 
> I do believe that zinc and/or activated carbon should be explored by anyone wishing to use eco-goldex leach. Forget SMB.
Click to expand...

hi, I guess this process is more difficult than AP.the add said to drop the gold with SMB , but you say it did not work. I guess it is another snake oil salesman , ed.


----------



## patnor1011

ettran said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> In their literature, it mentions using SMB to reclaim the gold. Anyone tried it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried SMB, it was my first try and nothing happened just some fizzing. Potential use of SMB was clarified recently by owner of eco-goldex but I would not go in details here as that may give people wrong ideas which may result in fatal accident.
> 
> I do believe that zinc and/or activated carbon should be explored by anyone wishing to use eco-goldex leach. Forget SMB.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> hi, I guess this process is more difficult than AP.the add said to drop the gold with SMB , but you say it did not work. I guess it is another snake oil salesman , ed.
Click to expand...


Nope, you are wrong. It is working but SMB require one more step which should not be done without proper equipment under any circumstances. Many people will disregard this warning and proceed anyway so I decided to not disclose how to do it. As I said above forget SMB. Use zinc or activated carbon. Simple.


----------



## patnor1011

Is there any sort of measure for use of activated carbon? Like how many grams of it is needed for 1l of leach-ate?


----------



## upcyclist

patnor1011 said:


> Is there any sort of measure for use of activated carbon? Like how many grams of it is needed for 1l of leach-ate?


Is one gram of 1 micron activated carbon particles just as effective as one gram of 100 micron carbon? In other words, is granulation or surface area a factor? 

I know for metal, it's a factor for speed of reaction, but not for consumption/dissolution (at least in an idealized situation). But I thought carbon was more about adherence at a more-than-atomic level?


----------



## Deano

Assuming that the carbon particles have been activated by similar processing from similar starting material then you would expect similar metal loadings for both coarse and fine carbon particles.

The finer particles will load more quickly but with long term contact similar loadings will occur.

The exception to this is gold chloride where the gold chloride is reduced to gold metal on the carbon.

This often causes blockage of the pores in coarser particles of carbon and prevents further loading of gold in these pores, thus lowering the total loading level.

One of the disadvantages of carbon is its relative softness.

If high levels of carbon are stirred in a liquor you will generate large quantities of carbon fines.

If you are working with a clean liquor then you can, with a lot of muttering, filter these fines out for recovery.

You are then pretty much reduced to having to ash these fines for metal recovery, wet chemical ashing is really not a viable option.

If you are working with an ore then the fines will be lost to tailings.

Really unfortunate is that the highest gold loadings are on the outer surface of the carbon so any carbon losses will also lose the highest amounts of gold.

Carbon is usually pre-attritioned before use so as to minimise losses.

A carbon level around 5 grams per litre is used as a compromise between maximum adsortion rate and minimum attrition rate.

Agitation is kept to the minimum possible for whatever processing is involved.

Deano


----------



## patnor1011

Thank you Deano it really helped me. I am moving close to finish this test and will report outcome. Thanks again.


----------



## patnor1011

Deano said:


> ...
> 
> You are then pretty much reduced to having to ash these fines for metal recovery,
> 
> ...
> Deano



What is the best way to ash carbon which should be loaded with cold from Cn leach? I guess mapp torch is not good idea as gas flow from tip at pressure and ash can be blown away. (seems that happened to me). 

Can I dissolve excess of zinc from zinc method with nitric acid or strictly sulfuric should be used (a lot of references about using sulfuric in this step)?

Is there way to test for gold presence in alkali solution?


----------



## Grelko

patnor1011 said:


> Is there way to test for gold presence in alkali solution?



Closest I could find. http://refinementofpreciousmetals.com/cmhoke/CHAPTER%209.pdf (4/15 pdf) Page 91

"The test with copperas works only in acid solutions; it will not
work at all in alkaline or cyanide solutions until the alkalinity is
destroyed.

Thus, suppose you have an old cyanide gilding solution, and
wonder if it might contain dissolved gold. Take about five drops
of the suspected liquid in a small test tube or tiny beaker, stand
near a window or an exhaust fan, and add four or five drops of
hydrochloric acid. The fumes evolved are extremely poisonous
hence the need for working near an exhaust. Bring the mixture
cautiously to a boil; this drives off the cyanide. Let it cool, and
you can now test with copperas as usual."

You might be able to find something in here that'll work. It doesn't show what most of them are used for :roll: , just how to make them.
http://www.pharmacopeia.cn/v29240/usp29nf24s0_ris1s126.html#usp29nf24s0_ris1s208


----------



## Deano

I have always ashed carbon in porcelain dishes in an electric furnace.

By having the door of the furnace cracked open you can get enough oxygen to the carbon without disturbing the ash.

Usually run overnight.

Nitric acid is not used for zinc dissolution for two reasons.

Generally it is more expensive than sulfuric acid.

Nitric acid must be run fairly dilute to prevent the formation of oxidation product layers on the zinc, this leads to long leaching times.

I just run the solution through an AA to see what gold levels are present.

Deano


----------



## justinhcase

Has anyone tried to build a small Gasification cell for carbonaceous materials?
The clean efficiency with which it turns carbon into carbon monoxide, hydrogen and carbon dioxide is very good as filtering any solid from a gas is quite easy.
But as you need to react the material at high temperatures (>700 °C), without combustion, with a controlled amount of oxygen and H2O under pressure.
The resulting syngas this produces is itself a fuel which can be used to help run the process once up an running. 
I think some of the larger carbon processors from the mining industry use it but I have not seen a small scale set up.
I only ask as I had some graphite/silver material that did not separate cleanly without loss by conventional means.


----------



## Rmwatson78

Okay I bought my eco-goldex sample kits and they arrived today. I have an enormous amount of material, (at least to me), that this stuff seems like it will be perfect to use for processing but my samples didn't come with instructions and the videos i found seemed rather vague.

I planned to start with 2 1/2 gallons of distilled water and use NaOH to adjust the pH to around 10.5 before adding the eco-goldex e-series. Since the eco-goldex reagent has optimum results at .08% of the solution, would i just multiply my total volume of H2O adjusted pH solution by .08% to get the right amount of eco-goldex to dissolve in my solution?

And as far as the e-waste leaching catalyst I haven't found any pertinent information and hope that isn't the eco-goldex gold precipitant, but maybe i do since i didn't get anything with a label for that.


----------



## Rmwatson78

Ok my bad. I see that I should be adjusting my pH with CaOH, not NaOH.


----------



## Rmwatson78

I could only find something called "hydrated lime" at the hardware store and it seems to have a lot more than CaOH, so I'm thinking it won't work.


----------



## lg701

You DO NOT have to adjust the ph if you received the (E) series reagent. Got my
order last Thursday also with no directions and no clue what the leaching catalyst
was used for. Turns out it is to make the process go faster. I had to email
Mr Guo for the directions and he emailed them within a few hours, much better 
than the website or the videos.
I'm still waiting on Pat's results and opinions, but it does work awesome on a fishnet full
of pins. Tried three samples and all three were stripped in 30-45 minutes with only
slight agitation at the beginning and end of the test.
Hope this helps


----------



## patnor1011

I do not have much to say. For me it will be the most preferred method for pins and plated material. Speed and cost wise it is probably the best thing for hobbyist out there. I would rather work with this than hot sulfuric and generally acids are cost prohibitive over here to even consider dissolving such material. As for recovery either zinc or carbon, you will find what suit you the best.


----------



## patnor1011

Oh yeah and dont adjust ph with e series product, it is already prepared so it will have required ph. In case you doubt then check it with strips and fine tune it yourself if needed. I used sodium hydroxide without any issues.


----------



## Rmwatson78

Well I watched the videos for the prior formula and ended up making a super alkaline mix of hydrated lime and eco-goldex e-series. Thank goodness I found directions for the current formula shortly thereafter. I would have to say that this method is the most effective way I have ever used for quite a few different things. Gold pins, plated and gold filled jewelry, all gold plated computer scrap/boards, processors, ram, etc. I processed 30 lbs of gold plated chains in about 6 hours. I got sort of nuts when my liquid didn't test positive for gold with stannous chloride, but it dawned on me that stannous will probably only work on acid solutions. I have a giant bucket of some extremely dark amber colored solution, and I just don't like the idea of using an unspecified amount of activated carbon to recover the gold. And since using SMB would require a significant lowering of my solution's pH to be effective, I'm going to try and recover the gold using zinc powder. Would zinc in supplement form work if I crushed up the tablets?


----------



## Rmwatson78

Also, surely there must be a way to test this solution for gold without making it an acid. I don't want to lose any gold because I really have no idea how much I should be expecting.


----------



## shmandi

Rmwatson78 said:


> Would zinc in supplement form work if I crushed up the tablets?


I hope that is joke.


----------



## Rmwatson78

Not really. I see they have zinc gummies, zinc that melts in your mouth without needing water to absorb, and other kinds of zinc that have to have other ingredients. But if I made you laugh by all means, chuckle away.


----------



## shmandi

Common forms of zinc supplements:
Zinc acetate
Zinc sulfate
Zinc picolinate
Zinc glycerate
Zinc monomethionine
Zinc gluconate
Zinc oxide

I belive that elementary zinc should be used for "dropping" metals


----------



## g_axelsson

Rmwatson78 said:


> Would zinc in supplement form work if I crushed up the tablets?


No!

Göran


----------



## patnor1011

Absolutely not. What you need is zinc metal in powder form. Also you need to close watch your batches and do not process mixed type of material where one strip instantly and other thing need longer time. What is happening in this case is that while solution is stripping harder to dissolve plating stuff, it still attack already stripped material. That is why your solution got that dark, amber color. It does not mean there is a lot of gold in it, it mean you dissolved whole bunch of underlying metals in process.
When I used it, my solution was always clear to piss yellow but never dark amber. My first try when I overdid fingers and left them sit in aerated leach overnight resulted in boards stripped clean and dark amber solution.

I did not mentioned it but I thought that everyone who want to try this will proceed with caution. I mean that is the same for every process out there. No matter how many times you hear it is good or fast or whatnot you always should do small test batches to make yourself familiar with said process and make sure you can repeat it successfully. *One does not jump in deep water without learning to swim first! * That is why it took me so long from start of this thread till today. 
Now please do not buy this leach and use it on buckets full of material, do rather cup sized batches, test bottle trials and train yourself.

Second thing which is being mentioned throughout forum almost constantly is *Do not substitute reagents* *- Do not look for shortcuts*. 
Chances of you finding one are slim to none and you can hurt yourself in process.

Do not and I repeat *DO NOT* even think about SMB as it only work in acidic solution and you do not want acid near this solution. While experiment in test tube may be feasible as a learning point of view (observing reaction nothing else) it is ultimately stupid idea to try to acidify bucket of cyanide leach. If carbon is preferred and widely used by big companies it make sense to expect that it is cheapest and the best process to extract gold.

It takes just few minutes to reread this thread and it is all here, pay close attention to what Deano said and please do realize that while this leach work good this process has its own set of challenges and dangers involved.


----------



## danieldavies

hi. i'm thinking about buying this product. what should be done to the waste solution when finished?


----------



## Rmwatson78

One photo is of the solution after all stripped metals have been removed and the second bucket is the 1st rinse bucket.


----------



## Rmwatson78




----------



## patnor1011

That color look nice. Perhaps I understand amber differently :lol: 
I got baltic amber which was dark red color - there was my confusion.


----------



## Rmwatson78

The reason I asked about the zinc, is because I honestly didn't know. It makes sense in my mind that the zinc in supplements must be atleast kind of like zinc dust or they would call it something else. Never had any intention of trying to take a "shortcut", I merely asked if it would work since everyone who sells zinc dust seems to live about a thousand miles from me or in another country. Additionally, the written instructions I received only really talks about using activated carbon, recommends against SMB, and briefly mentions using zinc but no real specifics whatsoever.


----------



## patnor1011

Go to ebay. Type zinc powder and you will get quite a few sellers in USA. I have found one from NJ and one from TX.


----------



## Rmwatson78

I know you guys said that only the pure metallic zinc dust would work, but while I'm waiting for mine to be delivered, I took a small amount of pregnant solution and added some zinc oxide since it's insoluble in water.... and it falls to the bottom of the solution, but something definitely precipitates, and it sure does resemble gold.


----------



## hadriansluicer

While I wait for the leach and activated carbon I order,I read of aluminium powder being used to replace zinc. Maybe more knowledgeable members will have their input. The link https://books.google.com.cy/books?id=Ob8MAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=gold+cementation+from+cyanide+with+aluminium+powder&source=bl&ots=pRkODORPG_&sig=cmkx3K1BNVvU7olPqui6NUgO9No&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=gold%20cementation%20from%20cyanide%20with%20aluminium%20powder&f=false Also I see in this forum somebody use steel wool for cementation from cyanide solution. I will search for the post. Anyway I don't know if all this will work with this leach,so I will try with small batches,when my leach will arrive.


----------



## ettran

Rmwatson78 said:


> I know you guys said that only the pure metallic zinc dust would work, but while I'm waiting for mine to be delivered, I took a small amount of pregnant solution and added some zinc oxide since it's insoluble in water.... and it falls to the bottom of the solution, but something definitely precipitates, and it sure does resemble gold.


hi , would grinding some die cast in a container to catch the grindings work ? die cast is supposed to be zink , correct me if I am wrong , ed.


----------



## Grelko

ettran said:


> hi , would grinding some die cast in a container to catch the grindings work ? die cast is supposed to be zink , correct me if I am wrong , ed.



Make sure it's actually zinc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_casting

"Most die castings are made from non-ferrous metals, specifically zinc, copper, aluminium, magnesium, lead, pewter and tin-based alloys."


----------



## Rmwatson78

I'm not sure if the yellow color completely vanishing from the solution means that the gold has been absorbed by the carbon, but i hope so.


----------



## patnor1011

As far as I know it should be zinc metal in powder form. I do not know what zinc oxide will do with your solution. 
From what I gather it should be either zinc or carbon, I would not mix the two of them. At most I would do it in sequence - like use zinc, filter and then put some carbon in filtered solution or reversed, use carbon, filter and then use zinc on filtered solution but even here I would rather expect that first (whichever) will do job fine so I see no need for second precipitant and certainly no point of using both of them as they both need to go through further steps to reclaim precipitated or adsorbed gold.


----------



## ettran

hi , is this thread done ? waiting for positive results to get my system going , ed.


----------



## patnor1011

This thread will only take off when more people post their results and experiences. I am so far satisfied with this process and it will be my favorite one to treat plated material like pins or fingers. I do plan to run quite a lot of material but I simply do not have time to do it.


----------



## Lou

Have you tried it on thick platings? Also, can you plate onto steel wool?


----------



## Rmwatson78

I used it on some gold filled jewelry items and although it took about 5 days it seemed to work quite well. Patnor, thanks so much for all your guidance with this method of gold recovery. Did you say that I should incinerate my activated carbon prior to using it to absorb the gold particles?


----------



## patnor1011

No, I did not. I used it straight as I got it. After it is loaded with gold it need to be ashed. Do not use torch like I did. Torch will blow away fine ash along with gold which happened to me  . 
Use what Deano suggested. Some kind of furnace.


----------



## Kilroy2k1

Any more results with this process. 
Has anyone managed a controlled start to finish test yet?

Tom S.


----------



## ettran

patnor1011 said:


> No, I did not. I used it straight as I got it. After it is loaded with gold it need to be ashed. Do not use torch like I did. Torch will blow away fine ash along with gold which happened to me  .
> Use what Deano suggested. Some kind of furnace.


hi , I searched eco goldex web site and they sell a furnace for $880.00. I cant afford that right at the moment. hope everyone has luck with this process . waiting for good results here , ed.


----------



## Kilroy2k1

I've been trying to order some but the site was calculating the shipping at like $140 for a couple kg order to the next province.. 
Now i see the site is trowing errors on the zinc and carbon pages so i am a little cautious.


----------



## ettran

ettran said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I did not. I used it straight as I got it. After it is loaded with gold it need to be ashed. Do not use torch like I did. Torch will blow away fine ash along with gold which happened to me  .
> Use what Deano suggested. Some kind of furnace.
> 
> 
> 
> hi , I searched eco goldex web site and they sell a furnace for $880.00. I cant afford that right at the moment. hope everyone has luck with this process . waiting for good results here , ed.
Click to expand...

hi again , I bought some eco-goldex - E and waiting for it.tried the first sample and it strips the gold after a week but turns blue fluid and leaves a mixed white and black percipatant on the bottom . hope goldex -E solves my problem.ed.


----------



## patnor1011

If it took a week and dissolved copper on process (blue) then there was something wrong. It should and in my case did stripped gold literally within minutes. You need to apply correct ph and do use air bubbler. I do use air bubbler so solution is moving constantly around material. I stripped all kind of material as you can see in pictures here and none of them took longer than 15-20 minutes. With exception of my first try when I did not got it right with ph and after few days when not much was going on I overdid it with lye and ended up with copper on fingers dissolved when I left it there overnight. It is crucial to get ph within reccommended range but if you make it there you will be flying.


----------



## patnor1011

Kilroy2k1 said:


> I've been trying to order some but the site was calculating the shipping at like $140 for a couple kg order to the next province..
> Now i see the site is trowing errors on the zinc and carbon pages so i am a little cautious.



Send him email or just call him but I cant see the need of having kilograms of it unless you do plan to use it to leach ore. As far as I know you can strip whole lot of material with just few grams and then adsorb gold with carbon and reuse solution again.


----------



## marlyn

patnor1011 said:


> Send him email or just call him but I cant see the need of having kilograms of it unless you do plan to use it to leach ore. As far as I know you can strip whole lot of material with just few grams and then adsorb gold with carbon and reuse solution again.



Hi Patnor, are you still thinking about buying stuff together? I'm trying to order 2kgs to Czech republic but it says $111 (I've used code) including shipping, which cost $60. It is too much in my opinion. And it's still necessary to pay VAT and duty when package is comming to EU.

BTW: zinc metal powder here cost about 12 EUR / kg (including shipping). Is it expensive?


----------



## Kilroy2k1

Thanks for the reply guys. 
It would seem the gent was just busy and low on stock of carbon and zinc. he did get back to me and we completed the transaction and its already shipped to me.
I'm still curious if anyone has done a successful recovery from the solution.


----------



## patnor1011

I asked John while back about it and he was in discussion with some companies in EU to set some sort of eu re-seller. Group buy will only make sense if purchased amount will be high and sent by sea to save on shipping costs - couple hundred kilograms or ton of the stuff which I do not have capacity to store. As far as I remember it was something like 2000$/mt but I am not self employed or company to even think about that kind of amount of reagent.


----------



## ettran

patnor1011 said:


> I asked John while back about it and he was in discussion with some companies in EU to set some sort of eu re-seller. Group buy will only make sense if purchased amount will be high and sent by sea to save on shipping costs - couple hundred kilograms or ton of the stuff which I do not have capacity to store. As far as I remember it was something like 2000$/mt but I am not self employed or company to even think about that kind of amount of reagent.


hi,how much zink powder should you use per liter of solution ? ed.


----------



## anachronism

That's a bit like asking how much SMB per litre of AR. The same answer would apply Ed.

This is cyanide leaching, it's just presented in a package that doesn't initially look like cyanide leaching. But it is.


----------



## patnor1011

ettran said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I asked John while back about it and he was in discussion with some companies in EU to set some sort of eu re-seller. Group buy will only make sense if purchased amount will be high and sent by sea to save on shipping costs - couple hundred kilograms or ton of the stuff which I do not have capacity to store. As far as I remember it was something like 2000$/mt but I am not self employed or company to even think about that kind of amount of reagent.
> 
> 
> 
> hi,how much zink powder should you use per liter of solution ? ed.
Click to expand...


If I only know. This thread is work in progress, I do not have any step by step solution or exact recipes. I thought that if some people will want to try it it may be cool to share experiences. I shared what I did so far there is not much more to add for now. I do not consider using zinc in future, I am going to focus on gold recovery with carbon.


----------



## Dpetes

How to use zinc powder/stripes to precipitate gold out of the pregnant solution

Step 1: Drop gold out of the pregnant solution
•Separate pregnant solution and residual materials by filtering; storing pregnant solution in a container;
•With constant stirring (for zinc powder), adding zinc powder into pregnant solution (use the ratio of 1 g Au : 2-4 g zinc powder);
•The gold will drop out and appear as a brownish powder.
•To insure all the gold drop out, add a slight excess of zinc, which is of a gray color. Add the zinc in increments, allow it to work for a couple of minutes, and observe the color. When the observed powder is of a uniform gray color, all the gold should be out.
•Allow the powder to settle overnight, Either siphon or dip off most of the solution without disturbing the settled solids.
•For zinc strips precipitation, just sock curl zinc strips into the pregnant solution, let the chemical reaction does its work for 6-10 hours.
•Filter (coffee filter paper can do the job) the solids and retian all the solids from the filter paper and put them into a plastic bucket. Keep the filter paper(s) for future incineration.

Step 2: purify gold with acid washing

•Add proper amount of water to the solids and stir a bit to break up the solids and create a slurry;
•UNDER A FUME HOOD!, add a small amount of concentrated HNO3 or H2SO4 acid. You should see an immediate reaction. When the reaction subsides, give it a stir and add a little more acid. Repeat until an addition of acid produces no reaction; this step is to remove base metallic elements such as Cu, Fe… that might be dissolved during stripping process. And extra Zn strips remain. Base metal sulfides(i.e. CuSO4, FeSO4, ZnSO4) are soluble in water, while Au can’t be dissolved by H2SO4 or HNO3. these base metals (junks) will be separated from Au through filtration.
•Filter the acid solution and transfer the solids to a beaker, cover with water, and heat to a little below boiling. Add some acid and heat for about 15 minutes to make sure all soluble base metal sulfites are dissolved.
•Filter the solids and rinse several times with hot water. Remove the solids from the paper and slowly dry.
•At this point, you should have 99+% gold powder(usually dark color!). To purify it further, you can use the standard aqua regia method.

This is from eco-goldex E series instruction PDF sheet.

Dwayne


----------



## nickvc

To add to the thread be aware that dropping gold out of cyanide solutions using zinc can be difficult to almost impossible depending on what else is in the original solution, the only way to be totally sure you have all the gold out is with assays so assay your solution before attempting to drop it.


----------



## anachronism

Thanks Nick

You do also need to be aware that using activated carbon with this particular product can cause its own set of problems too. UV breaks the ferro-cyanide bond hence the free cyanide for the leach in this product. The bond is remade when the product is put back in the dark. An activated carbon tower takes ALL the metals onto the carbon including the iron. 

The reason zinc is recommended is that the zinc precipitation leaves the iron in solution. Yes you can use activated carbon but you do need to be aware of, and prepare for the iron that you are likely to get in your ash. Not a major issue if you're prepared for it of course. 

You could actually short circuit the whole process by buying ferrocyanide and just using that with an oxidant under UV. Same old same old but the restrictions on buying ferrocyanide are nowhere near those for buying a cyanide metal salt such as Potassium or Sodium Cyanide. In fact I don't think it's even on a restricted list although I'm open to be corrected. That's the whole crux of this branded product in a nutshell. You can sell it and ship it with no restrictions. 

It needs education though because in essence it's the same process as a full blown KCN or NaCN leach. Call it a workaround if you will.

Credit to Deano for the additional chemistry.

Edit for accurate description.


----------



## nickvc

Well if the carbon strips all the metals including the iron surely your left with a cyanide solution as the waste solution as the carbon will leave most of the cyanide alone so it's back to the same old problem who wants to work with cyanide...
Or is my physics/chemistry wrong here.


----------



## anachronism

nickvc said:


> Well if the carbon strips all the metals including the iron surely your left with a cyanide solution as the waste solution as the carbon will leave most of the cyanide alone so it's back to the same old problem who wants to work with cyanide...
> Or is my physics/chemistry wrong here.



You've pretty much hit the nail on the head old friend.


----------



## nickvc

Well if anybody wants some of this material I'd suggest they get in fast before our authorities shut this particular loophole down, but and its a big but you need to realise it's a cyanide process and is to be kept completely separate from any acids or acid processes and to realise your waste solutions if fed through carbon will be a cynanide waste that can be re used but if saturated with zinc then you need to be able to treat that waste separately from any acid wastes before you can safely dispose of it...

I can see this going horribly wrong for someone!


----------



## anachronism

You have "real" AR with Nitric acid and poor man's AR with Nitrates because of the restrictions with Nitric acid . Maybe this could be known as poor man's cyanide as it's the same principle.


----------



## patnor1011

Cover from Psion Dacom gold plated network card after ecogoldex treatment. Gold was stripped quite fast only black printed letters, logo and text remained intact. When I used spray bottle black paint was removed and gold plating under exposed, they went back to leach for a while to recover that last bit of gold from them. Plating is not too thick it stripped quite fast but hey, I got them free and not many people know that they are gold plated even that this is printed on them.


----------



## nickvc

I feel I need to make a few comments here.
This material is basically a CYANiDE stripper.
Please make sure you are capable and ready to have the space needed to use this away, far away from any acids new or used, you also will need to be able to neutralise the solution before you can safely dispose of it.
If you are going to use zinc the solution will become useless so creating another waste stream of very toxic material that needs to be treated with care and with proper testing, also there is no way to be sure without assays all the values are out of solution so budget for at least one assay per solution and possibly more.
If you use a carbon tower then you will be left with just a cyanide solution which you can reuse and the metals including the ferrous will report on the carbon, this will reduce the waste stream but the carbon will need ashing and then dissolving to get at the values creating more waste, do not attempt to try recovering the metals without ashing as you could and probably will have cyanide in the carbon.
When you use any cyanide strip you need good rinsing which creates more waste which may hold values plus a certain amount of cyanide which again needs to be treated.
If you use zinc the residues from this process will need filtering and good hot water rinses to remove any cyanide before you attempt to remove the base metals with acids, this has to be done in a good fume hood with decent extraction for your own safety, you can use HCl or nitric, I prefer HCl as the fumes aren't so bad but nitric works better in removing everything but the gold.
The storage and handling of the solutions needs to be done carefully and any solutions well covered and sealed to prevent accidents or worse, this is cyanide it takes no prisoners.
In my honest opinion I don't believe members should use this especially at home due to the inherent dangers which cyanide poses, it will not reduce your waste stream, you will need equipment to be able to safely neutralise the solutions before disposal and your going to make few friends from any environment agencies especially if there's an accident such as a leak into the water table or worse someone dies.
There are other methods which achieve the same results but are fairly new so my advice is to look at them as they seem to be non toxic which to my mind seems a much better bet for the home refiner, to get the best from any of these methods including cyanide you need to invest in equipment to monitor the processes , improve the speed and to help recover the values, there is no free lunch it will cost money to follow these methods and processes successfully and in the case of cyanide extreme care with its use , storage and disposal, if your not willing to spend the time and money and create a new work area separate from your normal one then keep away.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Thank you Nick. Well said!

Dave


----------



## Aristo

+1
Thanks Nick.


----------



## Marcel

Every time some method sounds too be good to be true, it is too good to be true...
I am a bit upset with the "ECO" label of that stripper.


----------



## nickvc

Marcel said:


> Every time some method sounds too be good to be true, it is too good to be true...
> I am a bit upset with the "ECO" label of that stripper.



There are alternatives but you need to do some research and a lot of experimentation to perfect them and a few show some real promise, I'd say read the forum and read any new ideas that are put forward, not all of them are rubbish!


----------



## ettran

nickvc said:


> Marcel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every time some method sounds too be good to be true, it is too good to be true...
> I am a bit upset with the "ECO" label of that stripper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are alternatives but you need to do some research and a lot of experimentation to perfect them and a few show some real promise, I'd say read the forum and read any new ideas that are put forward, not all of them are rubbish!
Click to expand...

hi , so far it is working good for me , ed.


----------



## nickvc

ettran said:


> nickvc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marcel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every time some method sounds too be good to be true, it is too good to be true...
> I am a bit upset with the "ECO" label of that stripper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are alternatives but you need to do some research and a lot of experimentation to perfect them and a few show some real promise, I'd say read the forum and read any new ideas that are put forward, not all of them are rubbish!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> hi , so far it is working good for me , ed.
Click to expand...



Ed just be aware you are working with CYANiDE under a different disguise, just make sure you keep it well away from your acids and practice good housekeeping, ie wash your hands/ gloves before using them elsewhere, store it sealed and out of reach of kids, pets etc,preferably keep it locked up, dedicate a separate area to work in, and be aware you cannot test the solution easily to see if you have all the values out without assays unless you use carbon to strip the solution which will leave you with a straight cyanide solution!
Just be careful is the simple message, this stuff is great but it will kill if your irresponsibile or careless.


----------



## ettran

hi , there. using zink powder but it is slow, not sure if I am using enough zink. fluid is a nice yellow color , but stays yellow after zink is put in.i am only putting a teaspoon at a time each day , stirring several times a day . has anyone tried broken up CPU's with eco-goldex E series? ed


----------



## anachronism

Ettran

You have to consider that having free cyanide plus leach enhancers plus oxidiser in a solution is in reality exactly the same principle as having AR with free Nitric in it. Add SMB to this AR and your precipitated gold can and will dissolve straight back into your solution. 

I've not read the instructions so call this an educated guess. Do the instructions suggest leaving the solution in the dark before adding zinc?

This would cause any free cyanide to recombine back into its original ferrocyanide form so that it wouldn't continue to dissolve the gold precipitated by the zinc addition.


----------



## Dpetes

anachronism

"I've not read the instructions so call this an educated guess. Do the instructions suggest leaving the solution in the dark before adding zinc?"

Instruction for using eco goldex E series was posted on page 4 (5th from bottom). there is nothing stated about light or dark.

Dwayne


----------



## ettran

hi guys , I bot some activated carbon and waiting for it, change of plans. I know the dangers of cyanid , i worked in a plating shop 30 years ago. letting zinc settle and draining off fluid .saving everything to clean up and clean waste,will keep forum posted,ed.


----------



## ettran

hi , bought som carbon , but havn't used it yet. looking for ratio of grams per oz. or ml .this thread has gotten quiet lately. ed


----------



## goldenhaha

I really hate to be the Debbie downer in this thread. I know people think I am rude and hateful and some think I should be banned.

What I am is the voice of reason. Let me give you an example.

Hello to all reading I bought a supposed gold stripper off the internet. The instructions weren't real clear but I used it anyway. It stripped the gold real fast and I think I am going to make a mint from using it.

Now I cant recover my gold from it. Reading this thread I have seen that zinc will drop the gold. Carbon will recover the gold. I am at a stand still waiting for someone to broke this unlockable chain. I need to break free from this steel ball and chain.

Being that I am not a long standing member on the forum and I don't have much say or pull.
If I was a long standing forum member meaning I have been on the forum for years and a couple thousand post. I had have done the following.

1. I would have contacted a long standing member of the forum that had the ability to study the wonderful chemical that I had bought to strip gold. Since I knew nothing about the chemical but what I had read.

2. I wouldn't have started dunking things in it without knowing the chemistry involved to recover the precious metals.

3. If I was located in the USA I would probably contact so and so and see if I would POSSIBLY be able to send them a sample of the wonder stripper that I cant recover my gold from and see what they could do with it to unlock the key to get my gold from solution.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

goldenhaha, I'm not sure I understand your post or your feelings about the forum.

Why do you think people think you're rude and hateful? You've been a member for over a year, but you really just started posting in the last couple of weeks. I've reviewed all your posts. Some showed some insight. Others seemed unnecessarily negative. Starting your post with such a negative statement seems to invite criticism. Why not just say what's on your mind without the preface?

You say you're the voice of reason. Then, the rest of your post just seems to ridicule members who may have bought this product hoping to find an "eco-friendly" solution to stripping gold plate. It's very easy to make fun of others, but do you have something constructive to offer? While I agree that thorough research is preferred before jumping in the deep end of the pool, we're here to help, not to make fun of those who jumped in too soon.

I'm trying to understand the purpose of some of your posts. If you just want to throw stones, you're not going to make many friends here. If you have some helpful advice to offer, I'm sure our members will appreciate it.

Personally, I get PMs from people with thousands of posts and people with no posts. I try my best to help them all.

Dave


----------



## goldenhaha

FrugalRefiner said:


> goldenhaha, I'm not sure I understand your post or your feelings about the forum.
> 
> Why do you think people think you're rude and hateful? You've been a member for over a year, but you really just started posting in the last couple of weeks. I've reviewed all your posts. Some showed some insight. Others seemed unnecessarily negative. Starting your post with such a negative statement seems to invite criticism. Why not just say what's on your mind without the preface?
> 
> You say you're the voice of reason. Then, the rest of your post just seems to ridicule members who may have bought this product hoping to find an "eco-friendly" solution to stripping gold plate. It's very easy to make fun of others, but do you have something constructive to offer? While I agree that thorough research is preferred before jumping in the deep end of the pool, we're here to help, not to make fun of those who jumped in too soon.
> 
> I'm trying to understand the purpose of some of your posts. If you just want to throw stones, you're not going to make many friends here. If you have some helpful advice to offer, I'm sure our members will appreciate it.
> 
> Personally, I get PMs from people with thousands of posts and people with no posts. I try my best to help them all.
> 
> Dave



Dave I have great respect for this forum. I have known of the Gold Refining Forum since 2007.
The forum was in its infancy when I found it. 

Safety first and do your own homework was my point. Wasn't ridiculing anyone.


----------



## kurtak

goldenhaha said:


> What I am is the voice of reason.



Unlike Dave I have not reviewed all of your posts - But from "some" of what I have observed - you seem to be a bit confused 

Speaking with an "opinionated" voice - is not the same as a voice of reason

Opinionated = holding to ones opinions in a stubborn way (Webster's)

Reason (or reasonable) something said or written to explain or try to explain an act, idea, etc. (or --- using or showing reason; sensible --- not extreme or excessive; fair (Webster's)

Quote by Dave


> I'm trying to understand the purpose of some of your posts. If you just want to throw stones, you're not going to make many friends here. If you have some helpful advice to offer, I'm sure our members will appreciate it.



Or as I posted as a reply to you in another thread


> don't rock the boat - you might be the one that falls out into the water



Just some food for thought 

Kurt


----------



## Patry0t

lets just talk about Eco-Goldex here please..

edit:
Patnor do you have some progress on this?


----------



## ettran

hi , used zink powder , activated carbon , no results thus far. anyone have any results yet ? ed.


----------



## patnor1011

Patry0t said:


> lets just talk about Eco-Goldex here please..
> 
> edit:
> Patnor do you have some progress on this?



I do not have any way figured out how to ash carbon. I may try something but it may require some MacGyver improvisation. My original leach from what I stripped so far is stored with carbon in it but no way to move further on at this moment.


----------



## Ali

Hi everyone,

As far as I know best way to use carbon to adsorb gold from pregnant solutions is by circulating the pregnant solution or continuous mixing,for incineration it really needs oxygen, I've seen guys do it in big pan with blowers(pics), also I have came a cross a post in this forum talking about burning activated carbon http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=24511
[/attachment]


----------



## Kilroy2k1

Ali said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> As far as I know best way to use carbon to adsorb gold from pregnant solutions is by circulating the pregnant solution or continuous mixing,for incineration it really needs oxygen, I've seen guys do it in big pan with blowers(pics), also I have came a cross a post in this forum talking about burning activated carbon http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=24511
> [/attachment]IMG-20160828-WA0045.jpg





I could be wrong, but the possibility of values floating away in the smoke from this method seem a little too high for comfort. I think something like an old Kiln for ceramics might be better suited to ash carbon. 

Tom.


----------



## Owltech

Electric crucible furnace. If you can't afford it - make it.


----------



## patnor1011

Another video from ecogoldex, any thoughts?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E97dsVMYU_0[/youtube]


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

why they add NH3 (i thought eco goldex has an basic supplementarry) and why zinc stripes instead zinc powder?

regards!


----------



## Mcnew32(Ag)

A little update of my progress with eco- goldex E-series. Works very well. 
Key factors are as follows:
1. Keep water hot (not quite boiling) 
2. Keep solution in motion weather it be from a bubbler or some sort of storing device.
3. Always keep PH around 11-12 or close.

General info in my experience:
Day1. Used about 150g of eco-goldex powder to begin.
Added 1gallon of hot water to 5gal bucket. Stir still dissolved. Added about 4lbs of gold plated connectors from old nortel HF racks. Kept stirring for about 15 minutes the decanted solution into another clean bucket. Sprayed down connectors and picked out the ones that were not complete which were very few ( picture 1) Next I added about 80g of various pins from circuit boards, smaller connectors and various other plated items. I stirred for another 10 minutes. I noticed the dissolving was slowing so I added about another 100g of powder and stirred till dissolved. Another 5-10 minutes everything was deplated. Poured off solution washed materials and proceeded to add about 2.5 lbs of various slot connectors and cable ends and other contaminated connectors with plastic, solder and brackets on them. Stirred until the plating was dissolved. Took about 15-20 minutes of stirring. Noticed it was slowing a good bit so I added another 100grams of powder stirred until dissolved then added about 30 grams of fingers and about 1.5 lbs of mixed ceramic CPUs. I knew the solution was cooled off so I added another gallon of hot water And began to stir. When I added the CPUs and fingers it's wa already getting late I knew it was safe to leave the materials in the bucket over night. So I cleaned up and covered the bucket and left it overnight. Came back about 6pm the next day after work and poured solution into another container and picked through the CPUs and fingers. 95% of the fingers were deplated. Only maybe 50% or less of the CPUs were deplated. So I sorted out the finished fingers and cpus and left the rest to finish. Over night again. Note the solution is cooled and the CPUs are a lot heavier plated than fingers so will take quite a bit longer. The CPUs have been in solution for about three days now. Should be 100% complete tonight. I want to make sure that all of the free cyanide is used up so this is why I'm leaving material in for so long. I did notice that on the last couple decantings there was a little bit of black powder precipitate in the Bottom of the bucket. I will collect this when everything is complete and I do my filtering stage before I add zinc powder to the pregnant solution. I will update when I am in this stage.


----------



## anachronism

A few points if I may. 

Some of your material still has gold on it. Be careful that you get it all off.
You appear to be using far far too much of the compound for the volumes of material that you are doing. You can also see where the copper has been leached.
Differing strengths have differing leach properties.
The ceramic processors still have gold underneath the chip dies.
You will not necessarily use up free cyanide just by leaving the product in there, and you can actually have the gold precipitate back onto the base metals that are exposed by trying to do this. I can see items on your photos that already have gold precipitated back onto them. 
There's more to this type of leach than meets the eye, and although it's a promising start there's an awful lot more to understand and learn to ensure your get all your values recovered safely. 

I hope that helps

Jon

Edit for spelling mistake


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Mcnew, I have to agree with anachronism that it sounds like you're using too much eco-goldex. Are you providing plenty of light during the process? From what I understand, the potassium ferrocyanide that is the active ingredient requires UV light to liberate the cyanide that dissolves the gold. If you expose it to UV light, the cyanide becomes available. If you put it in the dark, the cyanide recombines with the iron. At least that's how I understand it.

Dave


----------



## upcyclist

Is that gold I still see on the fingers? Would it make more sense to separate your source material a bit more and use different methods for different sources? Like copper chloride for fingers, Eco-goldex for pins, a little more pretreatment for ceramic chips, etc.


----------



## Mcnew32(Ag)

Thank you for the replies, after the pictures were taken I did sort out the parts that still have plating as well as the components that have some gold precipitation attatched. So all the material has since been sorted accordingly. You are right as I stated in my post there were some values precipitated in the bottom of the bucket but that will all be caught washed and re dissolved in AR later along with my other filters from the same process. Both of you are right about adding too much eco-goldex but i figured if I added more goldex to the solution I wouldn't have much gold precipitate out. I also have about 5lbs of fingers and about 20lbs of ram that I could run through the solution to use up more of the cyanide if need be. The first day I started was a very sunny day so the solution had enough UV light. The only time it didn't have light was over night obviously but there was only a hand full of material left in the solution over night which was the ceramic CPUs. By the way I did open the lid from the CPus before putting into solution.

I do have a question tho. The brass and copper items that have had some of the gold precipitate too, what process would you recommend getting that gold off?


----------



## Mcnew32(Ag)

The material that you see was all done according to the type of material. I did not just dump it all in at once. Hence reason for so much extra liquid from washes. Once on type of material was complete or close I would pour off wash material then start new material.


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

one question about the UV-fact.

the producer didn't speak about it and i think that the uv-part of the daylight is mostly, very mostly filtered out by the window glass, above all by the modern combined-window-systems with 2 or 3 (or more) window panes and hoy much of these very, very little UV which passed the window is present in the near of a back wall of a room ant the at the bottom of a plastic pail?

do UV real play such a big main role in the eco goldex process?

and again, why the add NH3 AFTER the leaching process to the eco goldex sollution which is basi enough by itself?

best regards!


----------



## Deano

Look at my post of July 19, the active component of the leach is the ferrocyanide which requires UV to disassociate into the CN- complex.

No UV, no CN-, simple as that.

Not a lot of UV is required but some is on a continuing basis.

I have no idea why you would use a proprietry leach rather than just buying the straight ferrocyanide.

The oxidiser present in the proprietry leach will give you major problems if you try to zinc the gold values from the liquor but will not cause problems for activated carbon adsorption.

If you use straight ferrocyanide as your leachant the only oxidant required is dissolved oxygen from the air, this is via a fine bubble sized bubbler or similar.

Feel free to pay extra for a proprietry product which will give you problems not gotten with straight ferrocyanide.

You still need to use the same conditions of pH 11 no matter which cyanide type leach you use.

Generally a little marketing patter for these types of products makes them seem even better than the basic chemical.


Deano


----------



## anachronism

^^^^^ What Dean said.

I wasn't being my usual blunt self but as Dean has pointed out numerous times, along with others, is that this a straight cyanide leach but wrapped in a more eco friendly wrapper. 

So you pay for the base chemical or you buy the same chemical within a bunch of useless stuff for loads more money.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

I believe Deano meant his post of June 19 Eco-goldex.


Deano said:


> Potassium ferrocyanide will disassociate in solution to form ferrocyanide complexes, these complexes will decompose to form free cyanide.
> 
> Effectively what you are doing is running a cyanide leach where the cyanide concentration is controlled by pH, temperature and UV level.
> 
> If you have a cyanide probe you can optimise the conditions to get the maximum free cyanide in solution for leaching.
> 
> If you get the conditions wrong you will precipitate out cyanide-metal salts.
> 
> If you block out all UV light there is minimal decomposition of the ferrocyanide complex and virtually no free cyanide is formed.



He also discussed it briefly in the sodium thiosulphate And hypochloride leaching thread.


Deano said:


> The second option is to use potassium ferrocyanide to generate potassium cyanide.
> 
> The only reason you use this method is that the potassium ferrocyanide has virtually no restrictions on transport or storage.
> 
> The conditions for use are virtually the same as for sodium cyanide, the only qualifier is that the formation of the cyanide complex is catalysed by UV and thus either sunlight or UV lights at night are required.


Dave


----------



## frank-20011

hello everyone,

i would try eco goldex and so i decide to take all the ingredients written in the msds an mix it by myself (in the EU it isn't easy to buy it) but after all the discussions....and:

"Feel free to pay extra for a proprietry product which will give you problems not gotten with straight ferrocyanide.

You still need to use the same conditions of pH 11 no matter which cyanide type leach you use" 

written by Deano i will try straight ferrocyanide but about ferro-leach i can't find anything in the forum search and almost nothing at the web.

in this paper they've wrote about ferrICcyanide gold leaching.

Regards, Frank!


----------



## Mcnew32(Ag)

I have a quick question would I be able to use a stainless steel pot to evaporate some of the water from my eco goldex solution?

Also I was wondering if I would be able to use i high quality stainless steel pot to evaporate some of my stock pot down. If anyone can shed some light on this please let me know.


----------



## upcyclist

Mcnew32(Ag) said:


> I have a quick question would I be able to use a stainless steel pot to evaporate some of the water from my eco goldex solution?
> 
> Also I was wondering if I would be able to use i high quality stainless steel pot to evaporate some of my stock pot down. If anyone can shed some light on this please let me know.


I can't comment on the viability of evaporating cyanide & ferrocyanate compounds, but sure, you can evaporate your stockpot liquors down. You'd want to be careful, of course, since it's probably a mixture of various acids. Will it work with stainless? I'm not sure--I'm tempted to think heated acids would eventually attack it, but I'm sure others here have practical knowledge of it. You could also use corningware/pyroceramic cookware to do it--very sturdy, very nonreactive.

Are you looking to evaporate it down to reduce the amount of liquid in your waste stream? Is it worth the time and hazards involved, over just cementing it with copper and moving on to the next stage?


----------



## Deano

Both ferro and ferri cyanide complexes will decompose to give free cyanide in the presence of UV light.

The ferri cyanide complexes need a stronger level of UV to initiate the reaction.

These reactions are reversible in the absence of UV provided all of the original components are still present.

Boiling a cyanide solution to lessen the volume is seriously not a good idea.

Cyanide leaching is usually carried out in steel vessels on a cost basis, plastic can be used but is usually more expensive, especially if outlets are being fitted. Steel welding is cheaper than plastic welding.


Deano


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

to ask again: i can use ferrocyanide like cyanides, as discribed by GSP in his cyanide-article at the GRF-WIKI?

i can use ferro in concentrations similar to cyanide-concentrations, with "hot" tap water, an oxidiser like H2O2 and regular stirring (or, as an alternative, mixing by aeration and no H2O2).

the "degolding" of the bearing sollution is known: by zinc (Al etc. as an altern.), activated carbon, ion-ex.-resin!

and i ask again: why doesn't anybody use this simple and safe seeming method, why i can't find anything about it here and why i have to ask in a thread about goldex about this method instead in some "Ferrocyanide-leaching-thread"?

best regards, frank!


----------



## FrugalRefiner

frank-20011 said:


> and i ask again: why doesn't anybody use this simple and safe seeming method, why i can't find anything about it here and why i have to ask in a thread about goldex about this method instead in some "Ferrocyanide-leaching-thread"?
> 
> best regards, frank!


Frank, I'll let someone with experience with cyanide answer the first part of your question about the process, but I'll try to answer the last part.

"why doesn't anybody use this simple and safe seeming method" While the method may _seem_ safe, and done with due care, it can be, it is also potentially very hazardous. Despite all the warnings and safety advice we provide, far too many new members read a few posts, then jump into a process before they really understand it. If you make a mistake with AP, you may make a mess. If you make a mistake with nitric acid, AR, sulfuric acid, etc., you may seriously injure yourself or others, possibly requiring medical care. If you make a mistake with cyanide, you're likely to die. The key words in what you said are "safe seeming". It seems safe until something goes wrong. 

"why i can't find anything about it here" Until recently, those with experience with cyanide have been reluctant to share advice on how to use it because of the danger I mentioned above. No one here wants to be responsible for anyone hurting, much less killing, themselves or others. Cyanide, in the form of sodium or potassium cyanide, is fairly restricted in most places, so any discussion of it would not have benefited most members. Ferrocyanide is kind of a "workaround" to the restrictions on cyanide, as it is more available.

"why i have to ask in a thread about goldex about this method instead in some "Ferrocyanide-leaching-thread"?" Eco-goldex is a new product that is advertised as an ecologically safe product. Some of our members have purchased the product, started using it, and have posted their experience here on the forum. It has, in effect, let the Genie out of the bottle. It is readily available to anyone, so we are faced with a Hobbesian choice. If we discuss the use of cyanide, the members who scan a few posts then jump into a process with both feet may kill themselves. If we don't discuss the use of cyanide, some members may try this "new" workaround method and kill themselves because we haven't provided safe advice.

That's why you're seeing the current discussions. I would urge anyone interested in this process to wait until this subject is more fully discussed on the forum.

Dave


----------



## Deano

Yes you can use ferrocyanide in the same manner as you would use straight cyanide.

*No, it is not a safe method, all of the hazards of straight cyanide are still present.*

The two areas where it is safer than straight cyanide are in transport and storage, note that this uses the term "safer", it does not use the term safe.

As per straight cyanide there is always the danger of HCN gas, especially if protective alkalinity is not maintained.

This is why cyanide leaches in industry are run at pH 11 or greater, apart from being more efficient it is safer.

These leaches are run either outdoors as per mining use or indoors with redundant (at least doubly) automatic failsafe systems for extraction of gases.

Ion exchange, activated carbon and direct electrowin methods of recovery of gold from these leaches will operate efficiently even if oxidants other than air are used.

Zincing will work OK provided only air is used as the oxidant. There will be some re-dissolution losses but if the solution is being reused then the actual gold loss is zero.

If oxidants apart from air are used then these must be removed or exhausted before zincing is effective.

Deano


----------



## g_axelsson

frank-20011 said:


> hello,
> 
> to ask again: i can use ferrocyanide like cyanides, as discribed by GSP in his cyanide-article at the GRF-WIKI?


Which article? can you give us a link?

Göran


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

sorry, it's a site which is linked from the GRF WIKI:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24567

"I prefer a steel mixer because it's easier to cover the opening. When tumbling, drops of the solution will occasionally fly out. To prevent this, I use 4 magnets, one on each corner, to hold a sheet of thin flexible plastic over the opening. I use 2 of the very strong neodymium magnets (from hard drives) and 2 weaker horseshoe Alnico magnets. When I want to open the mixer, I stop it so the neodymium magnets are at the top, remove the 2 Alnico magnets, and then fold the plastic up over the top, leaving the 2 neodymium magnets in place securing the plastic. This is much easier to do than to explain.

Using this process, I have stripped 6 drums of material in an 8 hour day, by myself.

(1) Add 1.5 to 2 gallons of hot (about 50-60C) tap water to mixer.
(2) Add parts to be stripped. You can strip quite a lot at one time - say, 5-10 kilos, or even more, depending on how bulky the parts are. The pile of parts added can stick up out of the water - everything will get wet as you tumble it. You'll have to experiment with the amount of parts you can run at one time.
(3) Add about 100-200g of Sodium Cyanide (NaCN) and tumble until dissolved - about 1 minute.
(4) Add about 50ml of the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Cover the mixer opening and tumble. The H2O2 will heat the solution even more due to its reaction with the cyanide.
(5) After about 2 minutes, stop the mixer when the strong magnets are on top, remove the lower weak magnets. and fold the plastic over the top. With plastic gloves on, lift a handful of parts, wash with a little water from a squirt bottle, and see if they are stripped. If you see white nickel and/or uniform pink copper color on all the parts, the stripping is complete. If there is still yellow gold present or if you see a black smut (gold that's dissolved and cemented back onto the copper) on the parts, add about 50g of NaCN + about 20ml H2O2, and run for about 3 more minutes. Repeat. If, after doing this a total of 3 times, there is still gold or smut present (very rare - maybe 1 out of 25 batches), start with a fresh solution on the same parts.

Note: Essentially all gold plating on electronic material has a layer of nickel plating under the gold. If the nickel is thick (or, if the base metal is magnetic towards a weak magnet), the stripping will likely be finished in 1 to 2 minutes. If the Ni is very thin, the abrasion caused be the tumbling can remove it and expose the copper. In that case, there is a battle between the gold wanting to dissolve and the dissolved gold wanting to cement back onto the copper. When copper is exposed, the stripping will go slower.

(6) When the parts are stripped, carefully tilt the mixer and collect the solution in a 5 gallon plastic bucket without pouring off any parts. Put 2 gal of clean water in the mixer, tumble for a minute or so to rinse the parts. The same rinse water can be used for 3 or 4 batches.

When finished, transfer all solutions and rinses into a suitable sized plastic container - 5 gal bucket, open top 55 gal drum, etc. Place the container high enough so you can siphon all of it imto another container. While dropping the gold, stirring is quite important. A prop type electric stirrer is nice, but the same results can be achieved with a homemade "plunger" stirrer. To tell how much zinc to use, you must be able to see the color of the gold/zinc powder. This requires a lifting motion while stirring the solution. A 5" dia. plastic disk mounted of the end of a plastic pipe will work great, with an up and down stroke. Go slow on the upstroke or you'll slosh the solution on you.

Precipitating the gold:
(1) Weigh out about 2g of 325 mesh "zinc dust" for each gram of expected gold. This is only an approximation - it may take more or less. Note that the zinc will also drop any silver or copper that has dissolved. Before adding, you must break up any zinc clumps that have formed. I do this by putting the zinc through a fine kitchen sieve.
(2) While stirring, add about half of the the weighed, de-clumped zinc. Stir for a minute or two. As you lift up the powder, look at the color. At first, the powder will be brown (mostly gold and/or copper). As you add more zinc, the color will become a uniform light gray color. This happens when all the gold and copper have precipitated and there is an excess of undissolved gray colored zinc. This is what you want to see. At that point, stop adding zinc and stir for 5-10 more minutes.
(3) Obtain a couple of 5 pound (or, so) zinc bars, drill a hole near the top, and hang them in the solution using some insulated house wire. Let the solution settle overnight. The purpose of the zinc bars is to prevent any gold re-dissolving.
(4) Siphon off the solution into a like sized container without disturbing any of the settled solids.
(5) Filter the solids and rinse them 4 or 5 times with hot water.
(6) Transfer the solids and the filter paper to an adequate leaching vessel (I use a 5 gal bucket). UNDER A FUME HOOD, cover the solids and paper with water. Add very small increments of nitric acid, stirring slowly in between additions. When an addition of nitric produces NO reaction, stop adding nitric.
(7) Filter, rinse well, dissolve in aqua regia, precipitate pure gold with SMB, filter, rinse well, dry, and melt.
Note: When dissolving the Au powder in aqua regia.
(1) Transfer filtered gold and paper to a large beaker.
(2) Cover with HCl. Heat to about 60C under a fume hood.
(3) Add a few ml of nitric. There should be an immediate reaction. When the reaction subsides, give it a short stir and add another small amount of nitric. Repeat until a small addition produces NO reaction. Stop adding nitric."

As you can raed, he use ~25g/l H2O and this is much more than the 0,x%-1% which are recorded in other documents. 
but as you can read, he works with short deplating times, brought about the higher CN concentrations?!

yesterday evening at 23:00 i dissolve 50mg K₄[Fe(CN)₆]and 80mg of NaOH in 50ml tap water in a glass beaker, place it on a window, behind the 3 glass sheets.
i put ~10 different pins from mother boards in the liquid, thin plating! and today at 12:00 the plating was still unaffected!

best regards!


----------



## Platdigger

Did you check the ph? Do you even have a way to check ph?
Seems to me 80mg of sodium hydroxide in 50ml of water would be way too basic, and that is why nothing is happening.

If I did not understand ph or how to control it, I surely would not be messing around with cyanide.
Or any of it's compounds.


----------



## anachronism

The higher the pH the less effective the CN leach becomes. 11 is the sweet spot for safety and leach rate.

Edit - with a high concentration of NaOH in there you also have competition between the cyanide and sodium hydroxide which adversely affects the leach. Dean did explain the exact chemistry involved and in this case I forgot to note it but I'm sure someone can fill in the blanks. The principle remains the same though- don't use loads of NaOH as Platdigger mentioned. Another point he made extremely well is that if you can't read a pH then go buy reasonably priced pH meter and don't do any more until you have.


----------



## Deano

Most common glass is to some degree opaque to UV light waves.

How much is blocked depends on the type of glass.

If the glass is a blocker then it will usually block a percentage of the UV, put several sheets in the UV path and you will block practically all of the UV.

No UV, no reaction, no leaching.

Deano


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

my windows are made of a combined system, 3 sheets of glass and the beaker is the 4th!

i don't know if the little UV-share which is emitted by energy safing or flourescent lamps is enough for a ferro/ferri gold leaching?

stupidly my pH Paper only reaches untill 11 and it shows 11 with my sollution and stupidly i know about the addiction of efficiency of cyanide leaching but in my test i don't waste any thought on it and put NaOH in the sollution by instinct-stupid!

(i will check my ph-drop-test for it's applicability in these case or will buy a better test!)

and i will ask again and again :wink: if ferro/ferri leaching is so easy, so non-toxic, so cheap and so easy available, why didn't anybody use it for leaching, why i can't find anything in the forum?
so what is the catch???

best regards, frank!


----------



## anachronism

frank-20011 said:


> and i will ask again and again :wink: if ferro/ferri leaching is so easy, so non-toxic, so cheap and so easy available, why didn't anybody use it for leaching, why i can't find anything in the forum?
> so what is the catch???



For many years discussing any of the cyanide leaches has been actively discouraged. The presentation of the eco-goldex thread has in many ways opened the door to discussion because of the lack of disclosure that this is in fact a true cyanide leach wrapped in another package. It has all the dangers of cyanide (as has been mentioned plenty of times on this thread and others) but since it is able to be transported and stored and bought with no restriction I gather it was felt that people should be in possession of ALL the facts pertaining to it.

It's neither easy nor simple to get it right and it has been pointed out, recovering all the gold from the solution is the hard bit.


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

"recovering all the gold from the solution is the hard bit."

at first i should be proud if i can use it for leaching....after the leaching i make me worries about the recovering.

regards!


----------



## upcyclist

frank-20011 said:


> and i will ask again and again :wink: if ferro/ferri leaching is so easy, so non-toxic, so cheap and so easy available, why didn't anybody use it for leaching, why i can't find anything in the forum?
> so what is the catch???


I believe your question has already been answered, but this thread is fairly messy now that we have the original eco-goldex discussion, plus the "should we discuss cyanide?" question and now helping you with your process. 

So let me make it clear why you can't find anything: *Because it is NOT so easy, and it is NOT so non-toxic.*


----------



## Mcnew32(Ag)

Just in case you guys were wondering I did evaporate the eco- goldex solution down using a stainless steel pot over a turkey fryer burner. I just heated the solution to just below boiling and let it do it's like for a few hours. There was zero further precipitation and the stainless steel was uneffected by the solution. There were not any additional vapors released during the heating process either. So I can say it is safe to evaporate the solution.


----------



## Aristo

At what point will a moderator step in and close this thread?????
Or are we waiting until someone gets hurt messing with something they absolutely don't understand?


----------



## upcyclist

Aristo said:


> At what point will a moderator step in and close this thread?????
> Or are we waiting until someone gets hurt messing with something they absolutely don't understand?


My first thought was to respond with my own opinion on the matter. 

On second thought, though, we should just start a new thread for a discussion of the benefits and hazards of openly discussing cyanide and ferrocyanide systems. 

Mods, would you consider splitting this topic to accommodate that, or should we just try to get back on topic?


----------



## anachronism

Mcnew32(Ag) said:


> Just in case you guys were wondering I did evaporate the eco- goldex solution down using a stainless steel pot over a turkey fryer burner. I just heated the solution to just below boiling and let it do it's like for a few hours. There was zero further precipitation and the stainless steel was uneffected by the solution. There were not any additional vapors released during the heating process either. *So I can say it is safe to evaporate the solution.*



No.

You can't. 

I would never do this. 

Look Deano already told you in no uncertain terms how this was a bad idea. You don't understand what you are doing otherwise you would not have made that statement. You seem to be selective in what you listen to and this is a very bad thing. 

It's posts like this that make Aristo's point.

Jon


----------



## Barren Realms 007

anachronism said:


> Mcnew32(Ag) said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just in case you guys were wondering I did evaporate the eco- goldex solution down using a stainless steel pot over a turkey fryer burner. I just heated the solution to just below boiling and let it do it's like for a few hours. There was zero further precipitation and the stainless steel was uneffected by the solution. There were not any additional vapors released during the heating process either. *So I can say it is safe to evaporate the solution.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> You can't.
> 
> I would never do this.
> 
> Look Deano already told you in no uncertain terms how this was a bad idea. You don't understand what you are doing otherwise you would not have made that statement. You seem to be selective in what you listen to and this is a very bad thing.
> 
> It's posts like this that make Aristo's point.
> 
> Jon
Click to expand...


anachronism is correct in this statement. If you have used this same area/room for evaporating acidic solutions you have the possability of creating a very DEADLY environment.


----------



## nickvc

Let's finally nail this.... Any form of cyanide is a danger and a deadly one, if you do not fully umderstand it and can not be around it safely DO NOT USE IT... It's that simple!

Let's stop been nice and call out the idiots who try using this deadly chemical without the correct knowledge and understanding before we have a death on our hands.


----------



## Platdigger

Agreed.
Also, I would think that whoever is selling this eco stuff, if they are not fully disclosing that this is truely a cyanide system, could, have or at least should have one, if not several law suits on thier hands.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

I wish I could write a complete tutorial on this process, complete with warnings throughout, as Göran has suggested above, but I have never worked with cyanide, so I will have to wait until others do. What I have done is change the name of this thread to Eco-goldex CYANIDE Leach. 

Locking this thread is not going to help anyone. The product is readily available to anyone who wants to try it. I can only encourage those with experience to share their knowledge on how to SAFELY use the process. 

I will say again that anyone interested in this process should WAIT until this subject is more fully discussed on the forum.

Dave


----------



## Mcnew32(Ag)

I agree that I should not have tried to evaporate the solution but be assured that I did take precautions not to create a toxic environment. With all of this fuss on cyanide I have decided to just stop doing the process all together. Quicker and easier is Not always the best or safest way. Once I complete the rest of the process.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

I will give this bit of advice.

I worked at a manufacturing facility for about 5 years where we produced zinc chloride and zinc bromide along with a few other things using HCl,HBR and god know what else because it has been too many years now. This was an outside facility. I was there at almost the startup of production at the facility. With the evaporation of HCl & HBR and the condensing of these back onto solid surfaces from floating around in the air that after the first year I took special care to wash my hands after I touched anything because of the chemical residue layer on everything. Even just walking around the facility and not touching anything I could feel the effects of the vapors as they settled on my skin.

What I'm trying to get across is that if you are doing work with ascids around your area you really should not consider even using the cyanide unless you REALLY know what you are doing. Even then I would suggest extreme caution in using it. 

I already know of one guy that was put into the hospital because of using a cyanide leach. I really don't want to hear of someone being killed from using this process.

This process does not really scare me but I respect the hell out of it.

I had an Uncle that use to work at a production facility where they made cyanide and he use to talk about some of the things he use to run into with it.

So this is my advice. Everyone keep on treating it like it is a new toy and they can get by with using it and they are not going to make a mistake and some one is going to be the lab rat that gets killed.

You have people out there making f****d up videos on youtube about using this.

So who is going to be the lab rat that kills them self using it? And when that happens and it comes to a head what other restrictions will come down to keep the ordinary person from getting hold of it?


----------



## ettran

hi , seems like this process is not worth the time , money , or the health risk . I tried it but not worth my time or health . you guys made up my mind for safety , thank you , ed.


----------



## nickvc

The one point to bear in mind is all the chemicals we use carry dangers and risks one of the main reasons most of us stress that reading and study are essential to protect ourselves and others from those problems.
The point with all cyanide processes is that they do not forgive certain mistakes and it is not the one chemical or process for all materials, with the right equipment and armed with full knowledge it is as safe as any other process or chemical, without that it is or can be lethal.
The decision to use it needs to be backed up with the ability to safeguard against the risks and with the knowledge to safely dispose of the wastes.


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## IBM7044

I've read about 3/4 of this thread, and meanwhile, some side research landed me at:-
http://eco-friendly-gold-leaching.com/

Which I saw no mention of in what I've read of this thread.

Might be of interest, apologies if it's already been covered.


----------



## Shark

The main thing to take away from this thread is to stop experimenting and do more studying. It is a great example of what can happen when working with chemicals with out fully understanding what your using and how to use them. I would like to try this one day, but I just haven't had time to study on it enough. Maybe some of the less knowledgeable people playing it with won't cause it to stop being sold before then.


----------



## m.iftikhar447

modtheworld44 said:


> upcyclist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spaceships said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read up about it. It really isn't as scarey as you think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I was thinking--aren't ferrocyanides actually pretty stable? see also: Prussian Blue
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Potassium ferrocyanide is used in food additives and wine making per their website.So everyone has probably already ate or drank some at some point in their life and did not even know it.
> 
> 
> 
> modtheworld44
Click to expand...



Sent from my A8 using Tapatalk

i was surprised after reading this post. butt it is true.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

m.iftikhar447, is there a point you're trying to make by quoting posts made months ago?

Dave


----------



## m.iftikhar447

FrugalRefiner said:


> m.iftikhar447, is there a point you're trying to make by quoting posts made months ago?
> 
> Dave


I have not any technical point on this topic. 

Sent from my A8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Platdigger

I think this guy is messing with us, with his handle.


----------



## jeffdanyelle1234

I have a question, do you think this new lease teaching process is worthwhile? Is a cost-effective for a small time E recycler. Are there any clear instructions out there anywhere for this process?
Thank you


----------



## patnor1011

jeffdanyelle1234 said:


> I have a question, do you think this new lease teaching process is worthwhile? Is a cost-effective for a small time E recycler. Are there any clear instructions out there anywhere for this process?
> Thank you



This process is suitable only to well experienced person with well equipped lab. Clear instructions are all over this thread. If you are experienced you will understand them with no problem. If you never worked with cyanide then this process is not for you and you should choose some other technique available.


----------



## Shark

> If you never worked with cyanide then this process is not for you and you should choose some other technique available.



If you can't understand this post, then this is not a process to be used at this time. 

P.S. 
No, I still have not used this.


----------



## hkhogold

before I am using it . but not too fast as the video and hard to extact the gold from solution . So I using the new one for leaching . 
this type of product usually using in Mainland China


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

at first: sorry for my crude english and the question: what a translation program do you suggest to me for the future?

i wrote to the EG-company (EG for Eco Goldex) and ask them what a kind of leach EG realy is because i am in doubts that it is an cyanide leach or better ONLY an cyanide leach but please read about my thoughts:

at their web site you can read

"n Eco-goldex solution, several components , though each individual component is not as strong as CN -, involve gold dissolving process and form soluble Au ions. The combined gold dissolving capacity of these individual components released from Eco-goldex is equivalent or even stronger than that of Cyanide"

and 

"Eco-Goldex Gold Leaching Reagent represents three different types of products formed through different approaches. The Eco-Goldex reagent is made from a group of chemicals proportionally mixed and fused on stainless steel"

and they count following three sub types of leaches which are combined in EG:


"Thiosulfate Gold Leaching Reagent "

"Thiourea Gold Leaching Reagent"

and, at least (this you can't read at the site but at the msds and at their own forum and formula!) a ferrocyanide/cyanide reagent AND about the cyanide you can read:

"in the compound solutions, since CN- ions are chelated, not ionized status, it is less toxic"

yes, as an additive compound: "additive (EDTA)" is added.

the company combine the different types of leachings in these formulas:

"Au+2NH3=Au(NH3)2+
Au+4NH3=Au(NH3)43+
Au+[Fe(CN6)]3- + O2--> [Au(CN)4]3- + Fe3+"

as you know i make some test with ferrocyanide leachings, not so successful and some with cyanide and they are, especially the last ones, sucessfull but even my high concentrate cyanide leachings with H2O2 and an elevated temperature are not as almost as fast as my test with my home made EG.

why home made? i wrote to EG, make some questions about the leaching mechanism and the terms of delivery and sale to the EU but they didn't answer and so i take the msds of EG.
as you can read it consists of:

" 
NaOH 1310-73-2 5-10 (chemical CAS nr. wight in %)
CO(NH2)2 57-13-6 15-30
NaCO3 497-19-8 5-10
CaO 1305-78-8 20
K3Fe(CN)6.10H2O 13746-66-2 5-30
Na2SO4 7757-82-6 2-10
NaBr 7647-15-6 5-10

o.k. fine. i wight and mix my own EG out of the ingridients written on their site, disolve it in aqua dest, adjust pH and put a few pins, fingers and so on in it and, and: nothing happend because (and as you can also read at their forum):

"These chemicals are mixed with predefined proportion and melted in reactor under 650-850 oC, after cooled down, the material is grind and mixed with bromide to form the final leaching reagent. Different producers may change their chemical"

o.k. easily i do the same: melt the mixed chemicals in my muffle furnace, let it cool, crush it, dissolve it in aqua d. and with this sollution (heated to ~50°C) i repeat the test above, put a few pins and so on in it and, and: a very thin plated PS-4 connector pin was deplated in 9 seconds.
fingers need a bit longer longer but a far, far, far.....shorter time than the same pins need in my ferro leaching tests (and the EG home brew sollution was used WITHOUT daylight) and also a shorter time than the same pins need with my home brew cyanide.

that are my, shurly primitive and from the chemical background immature, thoughts about EG.
Not a ferro leach, not a cyanide leach, a chealted cyanide leach whith a thiosulfate and a thiourea leach as additive.

please delete my post if my thought are a complete bullsh...


thanks to all for your attention, have a nice day!

greetings, frank!


----------



## Platdigger

Did you add the bromide after the melt and grind as they do?


----------



## frank-20011

hello,


and thank you for reading!

yes, like they've described it i've added Br (potassiumBr instead sodiumBr, i have only KBr!) after the melting process!

strangely i've get nothing after zincing out the sollutions.
in both cases, with my cyanide and with my home brew EG too, i get no gold out of my sollution.

in both cases i've deplated ~100g of fully and (mostly) partially plated pins in ~200ml of leaching sollution.
after the leaching process i adjust pH (with EG i've used NH3!), destroy the H2O2 (if present by catalytic reaction), zinc out with fine 20µm Zn-powder and coarser Zn filings, let react for ~12hrs, filter and wash percipitate 3 times with water, add HCl under safe conditions and after the dissolution of the Zn a black sludge was the result, in both cases, i think: haha, better than imagined but after adding a few dropps of HNO3..........nothing happens, so i add more HCL and warm up the beakers but the sollution above the black sludge stay clear and colorless over the following night.
mhmm....i filter it denox it with sulfamic and try to drop the ? by PMB (the last second two steps i have performed sucsessfully with bonding wires so: no new process to me!) but in both cases: nothing and nothing again after 12hrs.

so my question is: from 100g partially plated pins is there maybe not enough gold to zinc it out and drop it or what do you think about my mistake?


and one time more yo see: not deplating is the real problem: drop the gold and then you can be proud of yourself.

best regards, frank!


----------



## Platdigger

Could be an "electro win cell" would be the way to go with this concoction.


----------



## patnor1011

Kurt tried it with aluminium foil and had a success. Perhaps you just need to use more feed stock as 100g of partially plated pins - there is just very little gold on them.


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

i hope the low concentration of the gold was the reason...normally zincing out shouldn't be a problem.
but i think, in 100g of fully and partially plated stuff should be min. 50mg of Au and these Au in max. 200ml of water, is there really NOTHING when you try to dissolve and drop it out of these 200ml?
what do YOU MEAN about this calculus?

a stannous test was negative. i take one drop, only one drop of the pregnant sollution, add 1...than 2...than 3 and finally 4 drops of conc. stannous (the drop of the test-soll. was placed on a bottom of a white plastic beaker) but nothing, it stay's clear and colorless like tap water.


i make some tests in the past where i dissolve only a few bonding wires in a test tube with Hcl and one drop of HNO3...the resulting sollution changed clearly and promt the color after adding PMP but truly: this time it was more diluted.

one strange thing more about EG is: one time you can read at their web site zincing out is the way to do and activated coal isn't to prefere, on an other patch at their site they've wrote you CAN use activated coal and they also linked a video?????

i have had some success with Al-foil in a very!!! diluted sollution of commercial potassiumgoldcyanide (maybe you remember, i've found almost 100 plastic bottles in the waste of a plating shop where prior cristallic PGC was stored, a flush the bottles an get the gold with Al-foil) but at this time, in one case i add to the Zn-powder al-foil nothing to see, foil stay shiny.

one more strange point about the preparation of the pregnant EG sollution, the step before zincing out:

you can use NH3 to make sollution alkaline (like you do it with a standard cyanide-gold-leaching-sollution or, in the case you couln't buy NH3 in your country, you can use the reagents A, B and C TOGETHER to prepare the EG-sollution for the zincing process.

A, B and C consists of:

"Chemical A: Citric Acid, CAS No: 77-92-9
Chemical B: Ammonia Fluoride, CAS No: 12125-01-8
Chemical C: Magnesium Sulfate, CAS No: 7487-88-9"

AHA, a sulfate, a flouride and an organic acid to prepare the pregnant sollution for zincing out PM....

but: " NEVER add eco-golde reagent into ACID solution as this will generate hazard gases (S2O3 + H+ ->SO2(gas) + S)."

no word about HCN.

best regards, frank!


----------



## Platdigger

OK guys, I googled K3Fe(cn)6 and I come up with it being Potassium ferricyanide.
Ferri
It turns out that Ferro is K4.....
Actually K4[Fe(CN)6] 3H2O
So evidently this stuff uses Ferri not Ferro.
Right?


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

yes, i have had make these mistake often but for the process it make no big difference: when heating ferro or ferri you get cyanide (and iron) especeally under an inert atmosphere, there is loooong tread at the smd forum.

best regards!


----------



## kurtak

frank-20011 said:


> one strange thing more about EG is: one time you can read at their web site zincing out is the way to do and activated coal isn't to prefere, on an other patch at their site they've wrote you CAN use activated coal and they also linked a video?????
> 
> one more strange point about the preparation of the pregnant EG sollution, the step before zincing out:
> 
> you can use NH3 to make sollution alkaline (like you do it with a standard cyanide-gold-leaching-sollution or, in the case you couln't buy NH3 in your country, you can use the reagents A, B and C TOGETHER to prepare the EG-sollution for the zincing process.
> 
> best regards, frank!



Frank 

First of all concerning the instructions of the Eco-Goldex product I assume you are talking about the instructions here

:arrow: http://eco-friendly-gold-leaching.com/index.php

The confusion over them saying in one place that recovery of the gold from the pregnant EG solution with activated carbon "does not" work - & then in another place recovery with activated carbon does work - is because they are talking about 2 different EG products (I think they actually have 3 different products)

One (or 2) product(s) is a product(s) they recommend for leaching ore - this product(s) they claim activated carbon will work to recover the gold from solution

The other product (which they call the E-series Eco-Goldex) is recommended for stripping/leaching gold plating from electronic scrap (ie. gold plated pins, fingers etc.)

It is this "E-series" product which activated carbon "will NOT work" to recover your gold from solution !!!

Also - when talking about their E-series product - adding the NH3 has nothing to do with "adjusting the pH"

The NH3 MUST be added to the pregnant solution in order to cement the gold from solution with zinc (or aluminum) --- with out the addition of the NH3 - the gold will NOT cement out of solution when you add the zinc or aluminum --- if you can't get NH3 - then - instead you can use the addition of the A/B/C chemicals

The addition of ether NH3 - or - chemicals A/B/C is done AFTER leaching the gold & BEFORE cementing the gold !

It should be noted here that you pretty much need to use 29.5% "industrial" NH3 for this --- you can get away with off the shelf "household" NH3 - BUT - because household NH3 only tends to run about 3% you have to add a LOT more so you end up diluting you leach solution WAY down which in turn results in increasing your waste BY A LOT --- you MUST have GOOD fume control when working with "industrial" NH3 - working outside with the wind at your back "is NOT good enough"

So - it depends on which one of their products you are talking about as to whether or NOT activated carbon will work to recover your gold or NOT

As best as I can tell - they have 3 products - they are

Thiosulfate Gold Leaching Reagent 

Reagent Major Chemical Compositions: This is a modified lime sulfur synthetic solution (MLSSS) reagent. The main ingredients include: LSSS, stabilizer (Sodium hexametaphosphate); oxidants (calcium peroxide and potassium ferricyanide); and additive (Sodium bromide, potassium bromide). 

Gold Dissolving Mechanism: The effective components that leaching gold include sulfite, thiosulfate and polysulfide. Chemical reactions of gold dissolution can be generalized as:

2Au + 2Sx2-+H2O+1/2O2 → 2AuS+2OH-  +2(X-1)S
2Au＋4S2032-＋ 1/202＋2H20 → 2Au(S2O3）23-＋20H-

Thiourea Gold Leaching Reagent 

Reagent Major Chemical Compositions: major components forming Thiourea gold leaching reagent include: Alkaline Thiourea, stabilizer ( sodium hexametaphosphate or trisodium phosphate), Oxidant (Calcium peroxide), additive (EDTA).

Gold Dissolving Mechanism: Chemical reactions of gold dissolution in Alkaline thiourea can be generalized as:

S2O 82- +2Au+4CS(NH2)2=2Au[CS(NH2)2]2+ +2SO4 2- 
O2+4Au+8CS(NH2)2+2H2O=4Au[CS(NH2)2]2+ +4OH-

Low-Toxic Eco-friendly Gold Leaching Reagent  (this is the "E-series" product)

Reagent Major Chemical Compositions: This low toxic eco-friendly gold leaching reagent consists of the following major chemicals: Urea, sodium hydroxide, sodium sulfate, Ammonia bicarbonate, sodium ferrocyanide. These chemicals are mixed with predefined proportion and melted in reactor under 650-850 oC, after cooled down, the material is grind and mixed with bromide to form the final leaching reagent. Different producers may change their chemical receipts slightly and accordingly demonstrate different leaching strength or ore type adapting features. 

Gold Dissolving Mechanism: Though the complete gold dissolving mechanism of this group gold leaching reagent has yet fully understood, at least three of the following reactions exist in the process of gold leaching:

Au+2NH3=Au(NH3)2+ 
Au+4NH3=Au(NH3)43+
Au+[Fe(CN6)]3- + O2--> [Au(CN)4]3- + Fe3+

This (the E-series) IS "cyanide" --- in fact they say "in red letters" ------- "What makes Eco-Goldex successfully accepted in commercial production is that it is a simple system, which has exactly the same operational procedures and conditions as cyanidation. It is easy to use and can seamlessly replace sodium cyanide in most gold leaching operations

Kurt


----------



## anachronism

I'd be really interested to see why the E series one that "is cyanide" will not allow you to use activate carbon.


----------



## kurtak

anachronism said:


> I'd be really interested to see why the E series one that "is cyanide" will not allow you to use activate carbon.



Jon 

I am no chemist so I can't say for sure - but - I "suspect" that it has something to do with the Ammonia bicarbonate being "one" of the ingredients in the E-series EG

according to Wiki - Ammonia bicarbonate - when reacted with bases - produces ammonia - the EG (Eco-Goldex) product is a basic (as in "a base" - ie. NaOH) product

Again - according to the info from EG - they say -----

Gold Dissolving Mechanism: Though the complete gold dissolving mechanism of this group gold leaching reagent has yet fully understood, at least three of the following reactions exist in the process of gold leaching:

Au+2NH3=Au(NH3)2+ 
Au+4NH3=Au(NH3)43+
Au+[Fe(CN6)]3- + O2--> [Au(CN)4]3- + Fe3+

so according to that we are seeing three different (possible) gold complexes - the CN complex - but also Au(NH3)2+ which is a diamine complex - and Au(NH3)43+ which is a tetraammine complex --- meaning an ammine(2) &/or an ammine(3) gold complex 

So I "assume/suspect" it is these ammine complex(s) that prevent the gold from reducing with activated carbon

It is also I "assume/suspect" why more ammonia has to be added in order for the cementing with zinc/aluminum to work - the assumption being the E-series EG product does not provide enough NH3 on its own to facilitate metal ion exchange of the ammine complex(s) - &/or something (else) in the mix is buffering the E-series from facilitating the metal ion exchange --- so ammonia has to be "added" to facilitate metal ion exchange

As I say - I don't really know - & so assume --- What I do know - is that they (EG) has two sets of instructions for their products --- one set of instructions for the E-series product - & another set of instructions for the other two products (which they refer to as Eco-Goldex O/C Reagent)

In the E-series instructions they specifically state - "It has been confirmed that Activated Carbon is NOT a good candidate to recover gold from Eco-goldex E series product derived pregnant solution."

Where as in the O/C Reagent instructions they say ether activated carbon or zinc will work to recover the gold 

The bottom line - regardless of what is actually going on in the chemistry here - is that though the E-series product does work for leaching gold from electronic scrap - it is nothing short of a real pain in the butt when it comes to the recovery of the gold from the product --- working with "concentrated" ammonia is NOT my idea of fun 

Kurt


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

"I am no chemist so I can't say for sure - but - I "suspect" that it has something to do with the Ammonia bicarbonate being "one" of the ingredients in the E-series EG"

but NH4HCO3 isn't longer itself if it's heated above 58°C ( NH4HCO3reagiert zu NH3 + CO2 + H2O) and we remember:

"These chemicals*** are mixed with predefined proportion and melted in reactor under 650-850 oC, after cooled down, the material is grind and mixed with bromide to form the final leaching reagent. Different producers may change their chemical"

***these chemiacals: the content of EG (not shure about the type of EG) is counted by the msds, NH4HCO3 is listed on an other passage at their web site.

regards, frank!


----------



## Rreyes097

So am i understanding this whole thread right? That no one has been able to successfully precipitate their gold out of solution yet?


----------



## kurtak

Rreyes097 said:


> So am i understanding this whole thread right? That no one has been able to successfully precipitate their gold out of solution yet?



No - it has been figured out - the gold is recovered from solution by cementing with zinc or aluminum

BUT - in order for the cementing to work you FIRST need to add ether ammonia to the solution - OR - what Eco-Goldex refers to as chemicals A, B & C

Chemicals A, B & C are ---------

A) Citric Acid,
B) Ammonia Fluoride
C) Magnesium Sulfate

If you go up & read the post (on this page) by frank-20011 & then my reply you will see where we talk about this - here a quick link to the post (on this page) by frank-20011 - read his post & my reply

:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=23843&start=180#p267242

Also here is a link to a thread I posted about it

:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25001&p=264655#p264532

Kurt


----------



## Rreyes097

I thought I've seen somewhere in this thread on how much of this E-series eco-goldex to use in how much water? I believe I seen 1 litter of water to 100 grams? Please advise.


----------



## anachronism

If you have bought it are the instructions with it?


----------



## Rreyes097

I have bought it but no instructions come with it although there is a PDF that you can download that shows you how to do it but I don't believe it gives an amount of what to use. Patnor1011 i believe was the one that mentioned using about 10 grams of the eco-goldex but im not sure if he was using the older version or the newer version that doesn't require ph monitoring. Or if there is even a difference. But i went ahead and started with 10 grams and it's seems to be working well. On gold fingers, gold plated jewelry, green boards from cell phones, pinless cpus (these took a little longer) and even a gold filled ring!(took awhile but it got it done!) There isn't any visible change in the solution but still remains strong as ever. Its sitting on a hot plate that has a magnetic stirrer which seems to bring out the best of the eco-goldex. Im just worried about the ammonia in going to be using. If it's going to work to help precipitate the gold since it's only standard and not industrial strength. Anyone successfully get their gold to precipitate using this ammonia? If so did you use aluminum or zinc?


----------



## Rreyes097

Well stripping went well. But perciptating didn't go well. Used 64ozs of regular store bought ammonia. Which is well over needed amount. I calculated it needed roughly 1200 ml approximately. 50 grams of zinc strips. I think im over estimating that there is 5 grams of gold. No reaction after both were added. Anyone think I've messed it all up out think i can simply get industrial strength ammonia and be good to go?


----------



## Rreyes097

I need help recovering my gold! Anyone able to guide me?


----------



## Rreyes097

I just wanted to uodate everyone on my experience with this product. I did a test run with this product. My trial run included 3-4 lbs of plated jewelry, cell phone boards, plated pins, heat speaders, and whatever else i could try. Well i didn't have the righr anmonia and things didn't go as planned and I've been trying to work with the owner or creator of eco-goldex john Guo he tried to give me advice but to no avail i still have let to get my gold! He then asked what kind of material and how much. I explained to him what i used and he told me that I've been wasting my time and his. But i honestly think he didn't have any knowledge on how to help me. Does anybody else think that little amount of gold is a waste of time? Especially being a trial run. Does anyone have the time to waste to help me recover my little bit of gold? Ive attached a pic of what i thought was my gold.


----------



## frank-20011

hello,

pfffff...4lbs of plated stuff, I! think, that isn't a waste of time especially for a hobbyist and especially with plated jemelry---right: i isn't much gold but as i stated: it is hobby!

is it really impossible to buy HN3 in the USA?
you can'r buy NH3 (aqueous, weak concentrations as a cleaning agent, propper concentretion in lab-commerce) or make your own in gaesous form?
it dissolves VERY easy in water.

What have you done to precipitate the gild till now-ony trials?

best regards, frank!


----------



## Deano

The easiest way to recover gold from these solutions is to contact the solution with activated carbon, ash the carbon and aqua regia digest the ash.

I use coarse activated carbon for ease of ashing, Pica 4 x 8 mesh, well washed.

Ashing is in porcelain dishes with 1 to 2 cm thick layers.

Ashing temp is 650C over night with good air access.

Deano


----------



## kernels

Deano said:


> The easiest way to recover gold from these solutions is to contact the solution with activated carbon, ash the carbon and aqua regia digest the ash.
> 
> I use coarse activated carbon for ease of ashing, Pica 4 x 8 mesh, well washed.
> 
> Ashing is in porcelain dishes with 1 to 2 cm thick layers.
> 
> Ashing temp is 650C over night with good air access.
> 
> Deano



Hi Deano, in your other (excellent) thread you mention that you measure the gold content going into and out of your activated carbon container, and use that information to know when the carbon is saturated. How do you measure the amount of dissolved gold in the cyanide solution ? I assume for a small-scale home based guy like me the best bet is to just put way too much activated carbon in ?


----------



## Deano

I avoid most of the problems associated with specialty leaching reagents by just using straight cyanide.

If I wanted to use a ferrocyanide leach I would run it without any other reagents, just use dissolved oxygen from the air as your oxidant at pH 11.

I use AAS to measure the gold tenors in and out of a transparent plastic column containing a carbon charge 50mm diameter by 500mm long.

Flow rate is around 30ml/minute.

Most of my liquors have pretty high levels of base metals, especially copper, so the actual gold loadings are relatively low.

I would expect to get around 15 grams of gold on the carbon before any appreciable levels of gold appeared in the overflow.

I avoid stirring carbon in beakers as the attrition rate is high.

There is so much stuff in the Eco-goldex leach that anything but AAS gives pretty difficult to interpret results.

If you expect a solution to have 10 grams or less of gold then you can run it through the carbon and ash the carbon.

Pass the hopefully gold free used liquor through the next batch of carbon that you use as a scavenge run before passing the next batch of higher grade gold loaded liquor through the column.

Deano


----------



## kurtak

Deano said:


> The easiest way to recover gold from these solutions is to contact the solution with activated carbon, ash the carbon and aqua regia digest the ash.
> 
> Deano



Deano 

In the E-series instructions (from Eco-Goldex) they specifically state - "It has been confirmed that Activated Carbon is NOT a good candidate to recover gold from Eco-goldex E series product derived pregnant solution." 

They have two other leach products that activated carbon will work with - but (according to them) it wont work with the "E-series" product

So that along with the fact that in order to cement the gold with zinc (or aluminum) you MUST add ammonia to the solution BEFORE cementing makes their E-series product a real pain in the butt

Though I have not tried it yet I think the best way to recover the gold from the E-series product is most likely going to be the flow through electro win cell you & Jon have posted about

Kurt


----------



## Deano

Things which make me wonder are;

1 Why would anybody use a leach formulation containing cyanide amongst a raft of other chemicals when they can just use a straight cyanide or ferrocyanide leach at a cheaper price and with less side reactions.

2 Why would anybody accept the marketing blurb as gospel without at least trying activated carbon.

The bond strength between gold and cyanide is multiple orders of magnitude greater than the bond strength between gold and any other ligand in these formulations. This means that any gold solubilised by a leach containing cyanide amongst other ligands will have the gold in the cyanide complexed form.

Other ligands may leach the gold faster than cyanide but the presence of cyanide will ensure that the final complexed form of the gold will be as the cyanide form.

The presence of chemical oxidants and multiple ligands in the leach formulations will ensure that not only will these formulations leach many more base metals than straight air oxygenated cyanide leaches but that there will be major problems in the recovery stage.

Often the claim of the gold not adsorbing on activated carbon is made either to cover the fact that there is no cyanide present (eg thiourea leach) or that the carbon is swamped with both dissolved base metal complexes and leach components.

If you have some great desire to use these leach types at least try activated carbon for yourself and get some real numbers on the gold adsorption.

Run the leach solution very slowly through a column of carbon and use AAS to see what actually happens to the gold.

My suspicion is that the gold will load onto the carbon but it will require ashing of the carbon and aqua regia digest of the ash to recover the gold.

If the gold does not load onto the carbon it is fair proof that there is no free cyanide present in the leach.

Keep in mind that thiourea is a listed carcinogen.

Deano


----------



## finegold

Good evening all. This tread was a very interesting read, though I have some concerns. Ive read all 8 pages, something I doubt a new member will do, they will read as far as "I dissolved the gold". At this point I feel that GRF is only acting as free advertisement for a foul tasting candy bar in a shiny wrapper(Eco-goldex).
This is obviously a cyanide leach and potentially deadly. 
Deano said at least twice that this concoction had too many reagents in it,I believe he is well respected in this field,and just to get my point across this is what I got out of the whole thread....ferrocyanide+h2o+uv light=cyanide leach, recover values with activated carbon,incinerate,AR. and im not a chemist and have no knowledge of this process at all,i have however used potassium cyanide in case hardening of gun parts....hated every minute of it.
I guess the whole point of this post is that pandoras box has been opened and as long as this thread is top of the list,people are going to read (part of) it. My solution would be to create a new "prosseses" section labled cyanide and place this thread there,and perhaps the poor mans cyanide leach could progress...I think it has value,but almost none of the safty issues are covered in this thread,if it had its own section I think 95% of noob wouldn't even read just because of the word cyanide,and while frugalrefiner wisely added that word to the post,eco still shows up first.....funny how the brain works
Harold V said read hokes and then read again until you understand ....the same applies to this wonderful forum,however only a small sliver of visitors will take that advice,everyone is looking for instant gratification


----------



## goldsilverpro

I totally agree with Deano when he said,_ "Why would anybody use a leach formulation containing cyanide amongst a raft of other chemicals when they can just use a straight cyanide or ferrocyanide leach at a cheaper price and with less side reactions",_ at least as far as the cyanide is concerned. In my opinion, for working with gold and silver, cyanide is as close to a wonder chemical as there is. I have used it for 50 years and for about 20 of those years, I used it daily. As a professional refiner, I would be lost without it.

I can't believe that this crazy thread has lasted for 8 pages and still there have been no firm decisions made about this seemingly crappy product.


----------



## Rreyes097

It works fairly well. Just getting the gold out of the solution is where it's really difficult. And according to the creator it's a waste of time if it's only 1 to 2 grams of gold. I still haven't been able to get my gold. Any one got any advice? And how is the electric method done?


----------



## g_axelsson

Interesting definition of "fairly well"... This aircraft works fairly well, if we just could find out how the landing gear works we would be able to land. :lol: 

I'm not impressed by the seller, if he can't advice you on how to recover 2g of gold would he be able to do it if it was 200g of gold? As a customer, if a test run with 2g gold is a bust, I would never add more gold to it until I'm positive I could get it back.

Göran


----------



## anachronism

Goran

Given that the product is designed for mining, I can actually understand the seller's perspective, 1g to 2g IS a complete waste of time in the context of what the product is designed for. They sell this stuff in multiple tonne loads. That given, Dean and Chris' respective points are the ones that come to the fore when looking at this product.

Rreyes there are a number of perfectly effective gold leaches and recovery processes that dissolve the gold readily. For many of them, actually getting your hands on the gold without either investment (often heavy investment I might add) into equipment or extraction methods such as resins is a completely different matter.


----------



## goldsilverpro

If you can't get your gold out of it, then it doesn't work at all.


----------



## anachronism

goldsilverpro said:


> If you can't get your gold out of it, then it doesn't work at all.



Yeah- I guess I was approaching it from the "glass half full" angle 

You know the approach that the gold that used to be on that component is now off the component and in one place so it's a win!!


----------



## goldsilverpro

Technic sells a cyanide gold stripper that doesn't allow copper to be attacked at all. It strips gold quickly and thoroughly. It contains a lead (I think) complex that somehow prevents the copper attack. There are patents on it - I think they are by ACR (American Chemical and Refining?). The problem is that you can't get the gold out by zincing, electrowinning, or any other traditional method - I have tried most of these methods with no success. It requires treatment with sodium hydrosulfite (dithionite), which is tricky. I don't remember this ever being discussed on the forum. I do remember a good thorough discussion on it at sciencemadness.org several years ago. I would probably search for sodium hydrosulfite gold on that site.

The problems you're having with recovery from this eco-goldex crap sound familiar and the formulation may be similar to the Technic product. This is only a guess, however.


----------



## patnor1011

My advice to anyone who is struggling to reclaim values from this leach will be to try all possible variants they are available, one at a time. Say that you have 1l of pregnant leach. Take say 1/10th of it and do some experiments. Do not put all your eggs in one basket. I mentioned it several times, leach is good to experiment with but one can move to bigger lots only when they do have a working and tried system or process. 
While I know leach is working rather well under some specific conditions this thread at least gave people knowledge and extra processes which can be used. Like using straight ferrocyanide instead of this particular leach we discuss here.

I am with Goran, if you cant get it work then it will not work for you it is that simple. Some people are struggling with various processes whole section of forum is filled with threads where people ask for help with even trivial basic things. PM recovery is so complex people learn new things their whole life and while some may be easy to learn others will be too difficult or too complicated to get it right. It all boils down to little details, small variation or deviation from a process may present roadblock which is hard to overcome.


----------



## M187g

Hello,
Sorry about my horrible English.
I read the hole thread about eco goldex e series.
Why i cant find nothing about the electrowinning method by eco goldex???
Would it work with the pregnant solution ?
Thanks 
M187g


----------



## Deano

The greatest problem with the Eco-goldex leach is the quantity of metals dissolved by the leach components and the oxidisers associated with them.

The only gold complexes which will not load onto activated carbon in entirety are those with neutral or positive charges.

If you have used one of the Eco-goldex leaches and the dissolved gold will not load onto activated carbon then you certainly do not have cyanide present in the leach

All gold complexes will be reduced by electrowinning.

The greatest problem with electrowinning the Eco-goldex leaches is that the electrowin product will contain pretty well most of the other metals dissolved by the leach.

You end up with a little bit of gold co-deposited with a lot of base metals.

Because the leaches contain oxidisers you will also have to run run much higher over-currents than you would expect to.

In summary; yes you will be able to electrowin gold from the leach solutions but the resultant cathode deposit will require further processing.

The cell requirements will be more expensive and the further processing will be more time consuming and expensive.

If this is the way you want to process your gold then I have little sympathy for your poor choice of leachants.


Deano


----------



## Patry0t

here is an update video from the maker of Eco-goldex:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwZwqv1Jq18&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Iggy-poo

Patry0t said:


> here is an update video from the maker of Eco-goldex:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwZwqv1Jq18&feature=youtu.be


All of the excess chemicals used is going to cut into profits, besides generating a lot of waste.

Has anyone tried the activated Carbon available for use in aquariums. For someone experimenting with small quantities of material, it seems like a commonly available reagent.


----------



## Patry0t

guys what do you think about this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shjRjTUdAXc&t=0s

It says its cyanide free.


----------



## g_axelsson

Dead giveaway in the video... "patented", took me two minutes to find:
https://patents.justia.com/patent/9090985
https://patents.justia.com/patent/20120292201

But as it is in patent-speach, it's a bit hard to find any solid details. The text covers a number of different chemicals that can be used for stripping and I only took a brief look at it. Basically it is an electrolytic assisted method.

Göran


----------



## tasgold

Deano said:


> Things which make me wonder are;
> 
> 1 Why would anybody use a leach formulation containing cyanide amongst a raft of other chemicals when they can just use a straight cyanide or ferrocyanide leach at a cheaper price and with less side reactions.
> 
> 2 Why would anybody accept the marketing blurb as gospel without at least trying activated carbon.
> 
> The bond strength between gold and cyanide is multiple orders of magnitude greater than the bond strength between gold and any other ligand in these formulations. This means that any gold solubilised by a leach containing cyanide amongst other ligands will have the gold in the cyanide complexed form.
> 
> Other ligands may leach the gold faster than cyanide but the presence of cyanide will ensure that the final complexed form of the gold will be as the cyanide form.
> 
> The presence of chemical oxidants and multiple ligands in the leach formulations will ensure that not only will these formulations leach many more base metals than straight air oxygenated cyanide leaches but that there will be major problems in the recovery stage.
> 
> Often the claim of the gold not adsorbing on activated carbon is made either to cover the fact that there is no cyanide present (eg thiourea leach) or that the carbon is swamped with both dissolved base metal complexes and leach components.
> 
> If you have some great desire to use these leach types at least try activated carbon for yourself and get some real numbers on the gold adsorption.
> 
> Run the leach solution very slowly through a column of carbon and use AAS to see what actually happens to the gold.
> 
> My suspicion is that the gold will load onto the carbon but it will require ashing of the carbon and aqua regia digest of the ash to recover the gold.
> 
> If the gold does not load onto the carbon it is fair proof that there is no free cyanide present in the leach.
> 
> Keep in mind that thiourea is a listed carcinogen.
> 
> Deano




which form of ferrocyanide is best for gold recovery, with carbon loading for recovery??


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## Deano

The form of the ferrocyanide does not matter provided you do not use ammonium ferrocyanide which will evolve large quantities of ammonia at pH 11 or ferro/ferri ferrocyanides which will form the insoluble Prussian blue dye .

Buy it by price, potassium or sodium are both fine.

Deano


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## solarsmith

Eco-goldex O series for ore.
i got 10 kilos last week and am now trying to learn all the particulars about how to use it before I actually use it on my ore. The instructions come as a pdf in an e mail when the order is shipped. When I read the section on (gold recovery from leaching solution ) I saw a big problem. It reads .'' gold recovery from pregnant solution can be achieved through activated carbon (resin) adsorption column, zinc powder /strips methods.'' Thats it! All other instructions pertain to the leaching . No wonder every one is having recovery problems. I have made a step by step list of instructions that use a zink strip recovery process.
I have had it reviewed by ecogoldex and will include it with this post. I have not used it yet so I can not speak to how well it will work for me. It still has a few things I would like to add to it but it is a important notes and instructions/guide and has been reviewed buy eco goldex. Hope this gives more answers than questions. 

1----make a aqueous solution from  water and lime or na(OH)2   to make the ph 10 or higher.  target 10.5 to 11.5   not over 12. let set for 2 hrs.

2----for duration of leaching keep ph  10 to 12

3 ---- for common gold ore   add 800 to 1500 grams per ton of water  

4 ----  for sulfide and complex ores  add 2000 to 4000 grams per ton of water.

5 ---- or 1 gram to 2 grams per lb of water.   (8.5 to 17) grams per gallon)

6 ---  temp of leach  15 degree centigrade or higher (60f)

7  ---  add  leach powder to maintain concentration for duration of leach see pdf instructions for info on this

8 ----  maintain temp and ph for duration of leach.   

9 ---- agitate for duration of leach.

10---  leach 1 to 48 hrs.

11---   filter solution  and circulate through zinc turnings 

12---   no ph adjust keep it  10.5 to 11.5

13---  Cement gold and pgms with zinc  turnings (if zinc not black after 12 hrs drop is complete)

14 --- dissolve  zinc strips in  diluted Hcl. 15%

15--- filter residue  (blacks)  wash 2x with water

15--- clean with diluted Hno3 heat (simmer) to make sponge.   Can add filter to the acid for this clean up.trim off extra filter material first.

16 ---    pulp or ore density can be as high as 50% solids by weight but 40% is normal. to maximize ore density a( marsh funnel) test may be in order. 

note --- after leaching a vacuum process of the leach to remove air can be done but not required (mostly done by larger operators)

note------- e chem only not for ore process
"Chemical A: Citric Acid, CAS No: 77-92-9 
Chemical B: Ammonia Fluoride, CAS No: 12125-01-8 
Chemical C: Magnesium Sulfate, CAS No: 7487-88-9"

note-----  e chem only not for ore pocess
The addition of ether NH3 - or - chemicals A/B/C is done AFTER leaching the gold & BEFORE cementing the gold !

note------


























9


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## ZamGold

How much ammonia should I add to the leach solution before adding the zinc?


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## tripmag

I have one important question!
Did anyone compare refining the same material to Eco-Goldex and dissolving it in acid?
Or has anyone tested the material after leaching in eco-goldex?

Why is every material in videos and photos after leaching with goldex silver metallic color even if the base material is copper or brass ???
Is it a chemical exchange for another metal?

I refine only very heavily gold-plated pins and ceramic CPUs.
Sometimes I also have 10-30Kg of gold-plated pins for which I do not have the capacity and I sell it to a large company for about $ 90 per kilogram.
I guess there is still a lot of room for profit.

I used the procedure I found on the forum and youtube.
With 500ml of solution I leached these pins in two batches of 750g.
It was suspiciously fast in about 20 minutes first and the second in about 30 minutes were all pins of silver color.

By precipitating by the zinc method, I got 1.95 g of gold, which is not enough because the redemption value of the material in the company is $ 135.

Used pins with silver color are not suitable for direct sale as copper or brass scrap so I decided to rinse them with hot water with a little nitric acid.
And what happened?
Some gold foil appeared on the surface and some pins have a gold color again, so all the gold was obviously not removed ...

Where did I make a mistake?
Leaching time? or does this process (metal exchange?) only work to a certain thickness?


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## theitalianhenchman

Hi 
I have no experience with the product, but for what I have learned in this forum, you should never put acid on a solution containing cyanide, I'm pretty sure this goes even for the material that have been treated with cyanide. You are kind of lucky to be still alive.
Someone else with more experience in refining will probably surely be able to underrstand what happened with your material


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## patnor1011

tripmag said:


> I have one important question!
> Did anyone compare refining the same material to Eco-Goldex and dissolving it in acid?
> Or has anyone tested the material after leaching in eco-goldex?
> 
> Why is every material in videos and photos after leaching with goldex silver metallic color even if the base material is copper or brass ???
> Is it a chemical exchange for another metal?
> 
> I refine only very heavily gold-plated pins and ceramic CPUs.
> Sometimes I also have 10-30Kg of gold-plated pins for which I do not have the capacity and I sell it to a large company for about $ 90 per kilogram.
> I guess there is still a lot of room for profit.
> 
> I used the procedure I found on the forum and youtube.
> With 500ml of solution I leached these pins in two batches of 750g.
> It was suspiciously fast in about 20 minutes first and the second in about 30 minutes were all pins of silver color.
> 
> By precipitating by the zinc method, I got 1.95 g of gold, which is not enough because the redemption value of the material in the company is $ 135.
> 
> Used pins with silver color are not suitable for direct sale as copper or brass scrap so I decided to rinse them with hot water with a little nitric acid.
> And what happened?
> Some gold foil appeared on the surface and some pins have a gold color again, so all the gold was obviously not removed ...
> 
> Where did I make a mistake?
> Leaching time? or does this process (metal exchange?) only work to a certain thickness?



I am by no means an expert in cyanide leaching but from what I observed it require certain finesse to get it right. Your batch could have contained various thickness of plating and therefore when some pins were stripped soultion was still dissolving underlying metals on some material. Then perhaps as it got saturated some of those metals precipitated and covered undissolved gold on other pins?

I think that this solution is not the best way to go due to secrecy and mystery purposedly put around it. If you want to try cyanide leaching then you can do it with straight ferrocyanide which is easy to obtain. In this instance you will know what exactly you work with so it will be easier to gain practice and experience. 

Pins may be brass or copper but gold is very seldom plated directly. Nickel is being used mostly as a barrier between gold and the res of pin body.


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## Banderauk

patnor1011 said:


> Irons said:
> 
> 
> 
> Potassium Ferrocyanide is a strong reducing agent and should be kept away from oxidizers. It can react violently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am testing that leach as we speak. While it stripped some boards (blue boards which are from under touchpad on laptops) really fast - within few hours, other like the same but green boards are going very slow. I made test batch with different type of fingers and plated boards and the only stripped so far after about 48 hours are blue I mentioned and boards from back of LCD screens. The rest is showing different stages like some fingers missing on close cut ram fingers but it look like slow process. I am in no hurry but I would certainly like if I could figure out how to speed up process.
> I do not want to experiment wildly with that as it does contain some cyanide but I was thinking what may happen if I introduce air bubbler or perhaps some hydrogen peroxide but your post made me wonder - is it something I can try or rather not?
Click to expand...


hiy 
add a bit of peroxide 3% or stronger and caustic soda to the mix it's sped up all proces, stripping gold in minutes from plated pins. i am using gold leaching agent witch i think same as eco material not mastered et but its video from Fransua Pele russian guy.


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## Toggle

If you have bought it are the instructions with it?


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## Sundown Resources

Gents for fast gold recover from using eco goldex E, use electrowinning. Its very fast. Your gold will not plate pure, but will have silver, copper and other metals. Then you can refine by cupelling with pure lead or AR. Cupels cost about the same as you would spend in AR per gram. Good luck.


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## Sundown Resources

Ag recovered 1.5 ozt per 570 grams Eco per 6.8 L
Used silver plate 7 lbs
Au recovered .8 grams per 55 grams Eco per 1L
Used gold plated jewelry and gold fill

5 volts low amps onto 316L ss electrowinning.

Way faster than AC. You still need to filter spent reagent with AC or resin. Small scale its not worth it. 

I dont know how to use elution process to remove metals from AC. Any one know how to do elution?


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## Sundown Resources

Gold


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## solarsmith

solarsmith said:


> Eco-goldex O series for ore. This Is updated info. there have been some changes that are to significant to let slide. I will put a * in front of lines that have changed.
> i got 10 kilos last week and am now trying to learn all the particulars about how to use it before I actually use it on my ore. The instructions come as a pdf in an e mail when the order is shipped. When I read the section on (gold recovery from leaching solution ) I saw a big problem. It reads .'' gold recovery from pregnant solution can be achieved through activated carbon (resin) adsorption column, zinc powder /strips methods.'' Thats it! All other instructions pertain to the leaching . No wonder every one is having recovery problems. I have made a step by step list of instructions that use a zink strip recovery process.
> I have had it reviewed by ecogoldex and will include it with this post. I have not used it yet so I can not speak to how well it will work for me. It still has a few things I would like to add to it but it is a important notes and instructions/guide and has been reviewed buy eco goldex. Hope this gives more answers than questions.
> 
> *1----make a aqueous solution from water and lime or na(OH)2 to make the ph 9-12 . target 11.5 not over 12. let set for 3 hrs.
> 
> *2----for duration of leaching keep ph 9-12 (eco gold ex web site instructs that there is no need to monitor ph once set.) I will still be checking.
> 
> *3 ---- for common gold ore 0.5% to 1% per litre of water or 5 to 10 g per litre . (45 to 55 g per litre for electronics) this can go as high as 80g per litre for electronics.


 


solarsmith said:


> 4 ---- for sulfide and complex ores add 2000 to 4000 grams per ton of water.
> 
> *5 ---- removed for clarity
> 
> *6 --- temp of leach 15 degree centigrade or higher (60f) they now give temps of 40 to 50 c or 104 to 122f
> 
> 7 --- add leach powder to maintain concentration for duration of leach see pdf instructions for info on this
> 
> *8 ---- maintain temp and ph for duration of leach. ( eco no longer thinks ph needs to be monitored once set).
> 
> *9 ---- agitate ore for duration of leach. (not a requirement but this is the shortest way to run a batch. )
> 
> 10--- leach 1 to 48 hrs.
> 
> 11--- filter solution and circulate through zinc turnings
> 
> *12--- no ph adjust keep it 9 to 12
> 
> 13--- Cement gold and pgms with zinc turnings (if zinc not black after 12 hrs drop is complete)
> 
> 14 --- dissolve zinc strips in diluted Hcl. 15%
> 
> 15--- filter residue (blacks) wash 2x with water
> 
> 15--- clean with diluted Hno3 heat (simmer) to make sponge. Can add filter to the acid for this clean up.trim off extra filter material first.
> 
> 16 --- pulp or ore density can be as high as 50% solids by weight but 40% is normal. to maximize ore density a( marsh funnel) test may be in order.


*17--- unknown carry capacity eco reports as much as 10g of gold and mixed pgms per litre.


solarsmith said:


> note --- after leaching a vacuum process of the leach to remove air can be done but not required (mostly done by larger operators)
> 
> note------- e chem only for ore process
> "Chemical A: Citric Acid, CAS No: 77-92-9
> Chemical B: Ammonia Fluoride, CAS No: 12125-01-8
> Chemical C: Magnesium Sulfate, CAS No: 7487-88-9"
> 
> note----- e chem only not for ore pocess
> The addition of ether NH3 - or - chemicals A/B/C is done AFTER leaching the gold & BEFORE cementing the gold !
> 
> note------


If any one is using eco goldex tell us how it has or has not worked for you. 


solarsmith said:


> 9


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## [email protected]

Ali said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> As far as I know best way to use carbon to adsorb gold from pregnant solutions is by circulating the pregnant solution or continuous mixing,for incineration it really needs oxygen, I've seen guys do it in big pan with blowers(pics), also I have came a cross a post in this forum talking about burning activated carbon http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=24511
> [/attachme





Ali said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> As far as I know best way to use carbon to adsorb gold from pregnant solutions is by circulating the pregnant solution or continuous mixing,for incineration it really needs oxygen, I've seen guys do it in big pan with blowers(pics), also I have came a cross a post in this forum talking about burning activated carbon http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=24511
> [/attachment]View attachment 33906



Hi everyone,
I am new to this forum, I find the posts here interesting. I can contribute a few video  on the subject about "burning gold laden activated carbon to recover gold" I have collected this for future reference.


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