# First refinement and wash



## jeneje (Jul 15, 2012)

Hello, this is the first refinment of filters i incenrated and processed this week. I was wondering if i should refine again, the color is not the same all the way through. I did do the wash as Harold as posted but i think i may have pulled trash down during the drop. But it is a start in the learning of incenration.
Thanks
Ken, :mrgreen:

edited for weight, 13.2 grams


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## Palladium (Jul 15, 2012)

Yes by all means refine it again. The hard part of the work is done. The 2nd time will be easier. I had some gold that i must have dropped 20 times when i was learning how to process. It never goes away and you can't loose it if you don't throw anything away. It's great for practice. Good job!


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## jeneje (Jul 15, 2012)

Palladium said:


> Yes by all means refine it again. The hard part of the work is done. The 2nd time will be easier. I had some gold that i must have dropped 20 times when i was learning how to process. It never goes away and you can't loose it if you don't throw anything away. It's great for practice. Good job!


Thanks Palladium, i think this time i will HCL/Cl methord. I used AR the first time. Going back over what i did i think i should have done another HCL boil of the ash before i went to the AR. I have come to understand prewashing is very important up front. I will post another pic after this refining to see the difference. 
Thanks
Ken


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## Geo (Jul 15, 2012)

for hcl/Cl, i would break the chunks into finer pieces so the dissolution will go faster.


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## jeneje (Jul 15, 2012)

Geo said:


> for hcl/Cl, i would break the chunks into finer pieces so the dissolution will go faster.


I will Geo, thanks.
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 15, 2012)

I don't know if you have done any powders yet but the reaction can be quiet reactive according to what system you use. Watch for boil overs and use a safety vessel.


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## jeneje (Jul 15, 2012)

Palladium said:


> I don't know if you have done any powders yet but the reaction can be quiet reactive according to what system you use. Watch for boil overs and use a safety vessel.


I will, and i will use a bigger dish under the reaction vessil. I am excited to see the finial product in a nice button, but i am proceeding at a snail pace so not to make to many mistake here. I have some C P beach and i will add it one drop at a time and wait on reaction to die before adding more so i can control the boil over if thats possiable.
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 15, 2012)

Nitric is usually the animal when it comes to boil overs from surface reactions. Silver powder was my first lesson with that. Thank god it wasn't gold. 

Losses from boil over.
Silver $1 gram
Gold $50 gram. :shock:


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## jmdlcar (Jul 16, 2012)

Please put up a picture after you redo it so I can see how it turn out.


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## Harold_V (Jul 16, 2012)

jeneje said:


> Hello, this is the first refinment of filters i incenrated and processed this week. I was wondering if i should refine again, the color is not the same all the way through. I did do the wash as Harold as posted but i think i may have pulled trash down during the drop. But it is a start in the learning of incenration.


The color (I see) is rather unusual, but that might be attributed to the camera, or who knows what. In any case, a second refining is definitely a good idea, if for no other reason, to gain experience (just as Ralph said). 

If gold is precipitated from a dirty solution and clumps up hard, as yours appears to have done, washing will remove only so much of the contamination. That's a lesson I learned by prolonged washing, with no real gain in quality. Key to success in such a case is to dissolve the metal a second time. In doing so, the entrapped contaminant(s) will be released. Even if traces are dragged down a second time, the amount of contamination that is present is drastically reduced, resulting in a correspondingly smaller amount being dragged down. A second refining, accompanied by a very good wash procedure (do not wash by the clock----wash until there is no improvement), should yield very high quality metal. 

Prewashing the incinerated material is always a good idea. In particular, materials that have a great deal of "dirt" included. If you suspect silver and/or copper, it often pays to do a wash with dilute nitric, followed by incineration, then a wash with HCl, prior to dissolving the values. The resulting solution, when the values are dissolved, will always filter much easier, and the quality of gold recovered should be of higher quality. 

Harold


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## jeneje (Jul 16, 2012)

Ok, i have started the second refinment in HCL/CL it is moving slow. I am getting a real good orange-yellow color and the test with stannous is a deep purple to black in spot plate. The digestion i think will be take awhile. I will post pics shortly.
Ken

edited for pic.


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## Geo (Jul 16, 2012)

vigorous stirring helps when using hcl/Cl.not sure what the mechanics of it is, but ive dissolved powder that seemed to take forever to dissolve and got impatient and started stirring. that seems to speed it up quite a bit.


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## jeneje (Jul 16, 2012)

Geo said:


> vigorous stirring helps when using hcl/Cl.not sure what the mechanics of it is, but ive dissolved powder that seemed to take forever to dissolve and got impatient and started stirring. that seems to speed it up quite a bit.


Thanks Geo, i am getting a little impatient, i have been at it since 7 this moring and it is moving real slow. I will try the stirring and see if that helps to move it in the right direction.
Thanks
Ken

edited: So far this morning i have added 10ml of CL to 100ml HCL, Could the solution be saturated at this point? and would adding more HCL another 100ml help at this point.


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## Harold_V (Jul 17, 2012)

jeneje said:


> So far this morning i have added 10ml of CL to 100ml HCL, Could the solution be saturated at this point? and would adding more HCL another 100ml help at this point.


I've heard endless talk about saturated solutions, but don't recall EVER hitting that wall, not with gold. What does happen is one of the components is depleted. Add traces more to see what happens. Also, add heat and stir, as has already been mentioned. That prevents local exhaustion, which will slow down reactions terribly. 

I have no idea how anyone processes with ambient temperatures. All I can say is, they certainly have more time at their disposal than I did when I refined. 

Harold


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## ericrm (Jul 17, 2012)

dont be shy on the hcl/cl
it is like your tying to get an once of powder in 200 ml of juice. i love hcl/cl because of that NO DENOX add a bit more hcl (with the amont of powder you seem to have it still will be very concentrated ,and give it A LOT of chlorine, you will simply evaporate it later.........
also change your pot.it is *way too little*
as soon as your javel will boil or react (im not sure if it is from heat generated or the gaz generated)) you will cry to have your gold all over the place, 
yes more hcl and more javel will help you.


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## goldenchild (Jul 17, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> jeneje said:
> 
> 
> > I have no idea how anyone processes with ambient temperatures. All I can say is, they certainly have more time at their disposal than I did when I refined.
> ...



Harold,

If one were to add a little 21-35% H2O2 to their HCL it would generate plenty of heat to get the reaction started.


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## jeneje (Jul 17, 2012)

Update, almost there. Applying a little heat to drive off any excess CL. Then filter and drop.

Now here is something i came home to. I had about a 1/4lb of ash filters i washed in two water boils and two HCL boils, i then added the excess AR i had left over from the other night to the ash. After a few hours yesterday i filter the AR through a charman plug and filter. Knowing that there would be base metal in the solution i added a copper bus bar to cement out everything to process over. 

Ok, the pics here are what i found. On top of the solution there is cemented gold floating the color has lighten a little and on the bottom is a light tan mud.(the mud pic color is not right with the camera i have it is tan mud) I know all that is not gold but i thought it strange how it done.

I will post pics of second drop when finished, hopefully today if rain holds off. :lol: 
Ken


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## ericrm (Jul 17, 2012)

in the picture floting gold ,do you use a stain less steel butter knife to mix your thing?


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## jeneje (Jul 17, 2012)

ericrm said:


> in the picture floting gold ,do you use a stain less steel butter knife to mix your thing?


ericrm no that is a copper bus bar in the dish. lol :lol:


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## ericrm (Jul 17, 2012)

ok...  it was better to ask and look stupid than let you make a mistake... :roll:


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## Geo (Jul 17, 2012)

when you cement using copper, you may have anything less reactive in that mud. i would rinse in boiling water and then boil in hcl. follow this with another boil in water and then a couple of cold water rinses. boil in ammonium hydroxide followed by boiling water. 

this way you can remove as much base metal and impurities before you dissolve the values again. cementing on copper always leaves copper in your solids.


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## jeneje (Jul 17, 2012)

ericrm said:


> ok...  it was better to ask and look stupid than let you make a mistake... :roll:


I do appreciate that ericrm, believe me when i say i have made plenty of mistakes  :roll: thats why i ask stupid questions :lol: One day i will master the search function here but till then it better to ask foregivness.
Ken


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## jeneje (Jul 17, 2012)

Geo said:


> when you cement using copper, you may have anything less reactive in that mud. i would rinse in boiling water and then boil in hcl. follow this with another boil in water and then a couple of cold water rinses. boil in ammonium hydroxide followed by boiling water.
> 
> this way you can remove as much base metal and impurities before you dissolve the values again. cementing on copper always leaves copper in your solids.


Thanks Geo, i will follow your advice, i am now filtering the solution and tommorow i will get started on it along with the first process.
I would to say thanks to everybody for their help here i am learning a great deal and for record i am taking notes to place in my lab to refer back to in the future.
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 17, 2012)

jeneje said:


> I would to say thanks to everybody for their help here i am learning a great deal and for record i am taking notes to place in my lab to refer back to in the future.
> Ken



Glad your learning. That's what the forum is for.


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## jeneje (Jul 17, 2012)

Ok, here is the pic of the second refinment in Au/Cl still filtering but wanted to post this one it has the best golden yellow color i have ever done. 
Ken

Just added the test results
ps thanks Palladium i am more a visual learner and am slow when come to reading but once i have done it - it stays with me.


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## Palladium (Jul 17, 2012)

I like it when it starts to turn that deep orange color. Only thing prettier that that is purple! :mrgreen:


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## jeneje (Jul 17, 2012)

Palladium said:


> I like it when it starts to turn that deep orange color. Only thing prettier that that is purple! :mrgreen:


Just uploaded the test results with stannous.


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

Done the drop this morning, question here, 98% of the gold has fallen out of the SMB solution, it is clear with a few floater. Can i evaporate the SMB solution. Then start the wash process.
Thanks
Ken


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## maynman1751 (Jul 18, 2012)

Just use a spray bottle with a fine mist to sink the floaters. Then decant and do your washes. You're going to have to decant your washes too! Just give plenty of time to settle. Put all of your washes in your stock pot.


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

maynman1751 said:


> Just use a spray bottle with a fine mist to sink the floaters. Then decant and do your washes. You're going to have to decant your washes too! Just give plenty of time to settle. Put all of your washes in your stock pot.


Thanks maynman, the drop went way better than i expected and it looks good so far. :mrgreen: 
Thanks again
Ken


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

Harold if your here i am now starting my wash process can you please explain this to me a little better "(A second refining, accompanied by a very good wash procedure (do not wash by the clock----wash until there is no improvement)" i'm not clear about... until there is no improvement. When you say no improvement is that in the color of the gold powder.
Thanks
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2012)

After you decant the smb solution off wash it with water. I don't know what size beaker you are using but here's how i do mine. I use a 1000 ml beaker because it has enough room for me to put enough water on top of my powder without fear of the powder popping out the beaker. I usually use about 300ml in a 1000ml beaker. Why? because you will want to boil the powder hard in the water and when it starts to boil it will pop or bump the powder that settles on the bottom beaker at first and the depth of the water above the powder will stop it from jumping out the beaker. Use a watch glass to cover it also so you don't loose any if it does. When you boil the powder it will start to change colors (the powder). Boil hard for about 15 minutes after it starts boiling. It's better to add the water already hot ( nearly boiling ) to the beaker so you don't have to wait 15-20 minutes for it to start boiling. After the water wash the powder will look lighter. Then add hcl and repeat the process. The powder will get even lighter at this point. Then a water wash ( same as before ). Then ammonium wash. Then water wash. Then do the whole process one more time and you should notice how the gold is a light color and the powder sticks together real good and settles fast. It will stop changing colors at some point and this is when you will know it is clean. That's what Harold means.


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

Palladium said:


> After you decant the smb solution off wash it with water. I don't know what size beaker you are using but here's how i do mine. I use a 1000 ml beaker because it has enough room for me to put enough water on top of my powder without fear of the powder popping out the beaker. I usually use about 300ml in a 1000ml beaker. Why? because you will want to boil the powder hard in the water and when it starts to boil it will pop or bump the powder that settles on the bottom beaker at first and the depth of the water above the powder will stop it from jumping out the beaker. Use a watch glass to cover it also so you don't loose any if it does. When you boil the powder it will start to change colors (the powder). Boil hard for about 15 minutes after it starts boiling. It's better to add the water already hot ( nearly boiling ) to the beaker so you don't have to wait 15-20 minutes for it to start boiling. After the water wash the powder will look lighter. Then add hcl and repeat the process. The powder will get even lighter at this point. Then a water wash ( same as before ). Then ammonium wash. Then water wash. Then do the whole process one more time and you should notice how the gold is a light color and the powder sticks together real good and settles fast. It will stop changing colors at some point and this is when you will know it is clean. That's what Harold means.


Thank you Palladium, it better to ask then to make a mistake this far along. 
Ken


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## eeTHr (Jul 18, 2012)

For the HCl boiling, there is no set time. You boil it until the HCl doesn't get any darker. To give you a general idea, for the first HCl boil after a drop, it's usually around an hour, or maybe more. Boiling vigorously, gets it good and hot, and the bubbles keep the powder separated so the acid can get to all the surfaces.

When you boil household ammonia, it will evaporate almost immediately. I believe Harold said he did his cold, so that's what I do. The silver contamination should be minimal because much of it will turn to AgCl in the AR or A/Cl, and when you dilute it with water, and be filtered out before the drop.

Maybe when boiling the ammonia, the heat allows the silver to be taken up fast enough that it works before the ammonia evaporates, though. I don't know.


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2012)

Don't know i've never tried cold i always boil mine. You will notice the boiling effect is different with ammonium than hcl or water. What i mean by that is the attributes of the solution like the temp it takes to boil or the way the bubbles form. If you have any hcl left over from not washing properly you will see whiffs of cl gas come off it.


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm at the 1st HCL and it is looking better...one hour it is... :lol: 
Thanks
Ken


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## tek4g63 (Jul 18, 2012)

Don't know if this will be any help to you, but I'll let you know how I do my ammonia wash.I,use the hot plate on my old coffee maker as a heat source. It will eventually start to boil but does not get out of hand. Of course if there are large quantities of silver in your powder that may not be enough. I only deal with the easy e scrap right now, so the silver content is quite low.

Keep up the great work! I really like seeing you go about this the right way.


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

Update, i have completed the 1st HCL and started the second water boil in the first cycle. Here are a few pics. I can say the color consistantly is the same through out. 

At this time...have another question, are there a chemical reason for boiling with ammonia or is it preference. That is my next wash.
Thanks
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2012)

Yes, ammonium helps remove silver chlorides and any residual copper traces.
What type of ammonium do you have? Post a link if possible.


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2012)

Looking good !!!!


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

Palladium said:


> Yes, ammonium helps remove silver chlorides and any residual copper traces.
> What type of ammonium do you have? Post a link if possible.


Ammonium Hydroxide from family dollar, just household as far as i know Palladium. It does not have a % on it that i can find. Is this ok to use?
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2012)

That's what i use. Only one problem i have found is it has a little detergent in it. Don't worry it's just a little pain in the but to remove but here's the easy way to get it out. After your ammonium wash when you go to your hot water wash you will notice that their is some residual bubbles around the water level line on the beaker. As the water starts to boil the gold will attract bubbles as it boils. Next thing you know it will look like a thousand sea monkeys or frog eggs dancing around in the beaker. The gold will make you think it won't ever settle because of this, it will. Keep boiling and you will see the water go clear,the bubbles disappear, and the gold will just all the sudden fall out of the water. This usually happens in a matter of a few seconds once it starts. After the water boil when you pour the water off just add some more cold water to it and swirl it a couple of time and pour it off. The gold should settle in no time at all with this method making it easy to do.


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

Palladium said:


> That's what i use. Only one problem i have found is it has a little detergent in it. Don't worry it's just a little pain in the but to remove but here's the easy way to get it out. After your ammonium wash when you go to your hot water wash you will notice that their is some residual bubbles around the water level line on the beaker. As the water starts to boil the gold will attract bubbles as it boils. Next thing you know it will look like a thousand sea monkeys or frog eggs dancing around in the beaker. The gold will make you think it won't ever settle because of this, it will. Keep boiling and you will see the water go clear,the bubbles disappear, and the gold will just all the sudden fall out of the water. This usually happens in a matter of a few seconds once it starts. After the water boil when you pour the water off just add some more cold water to it and swirl it a couple of time and pour it off. The gold should settle in no time at all with this method making it easy to do.


Ok thanks again Palladium i was waiting to hear back i am now going to do the Ammonium wash will post after done with finial water wash.
Thanks a bunch for helping me with understanding what i am doing.
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 18, 2012)

Your welcome.


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## jeneje (Jul 18, 2012)

Ok, done with the ammonium wash, and i done a search on ammonium and found that the wash needs to be kept seperate from the other washs because of the silver content, it can possibily make a explosive compound, is this right and if so are there any need in keeping the wash and does it need to be neutralize before disposal.
Thanks
Ken


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## Geo (Jul 18, 2012)

jeneje said:


> Ok, done with the ammonium wash, and i done a search on ammonium and found that the wash needs to be kept seperate from the other washs because of the silver content, it can possibily make a explosive compound, is this right and if so are there any need in keeping the wash and does it need to be neutralize before disposal.
> Thanks
> Ken



acidify with hcl. any silver will drop as silver chloride.


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## Harold_V (Jul 19, 2012)

I highly recommend a follow-up wash with HCl after the ammonium hydroxide wash and rinse. Combine that wash with the previous wash (ammonium hydroxide) to ensure that you don't end up with a basic (and therefore possibly explosive) solution when it dries. The follow-up HCl wash can prove very interesting if your gold wasn't quite pure. It's worth the effort. I did it routinely. 

Harold


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## jeneje (Jul 19, 2012)

Thanks Geo and Harold, I will do another HCL wash this morning, Here is a pic of the powder so far.


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## jeneje (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm finished with all the washing and the powder is now drying. Here is how it came out. I want to thank everybody who helped me with this project, I don't know how long this thread will be up but for anybody trying to process, this thread will give great results and alot of information on the simple steps. 

I can't wait to see the button it makes but for now it has been a great learning step for me.

Thanks
Ken

ps. i will post weight after drying.


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## eeTHr (Jul 19, 2012)

It still looks a little reddish to me. Maybe it's just the light or the camera settings, as your previous photo has an orange-yellow cast all over it.


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## jeneje (Jul 19, 2012)

eeTHr said:


> It still looks a little reddish to me. Maybe it's just the light or the camera settings, as your previous photo has an orange-yellow cast all over it.


I think it is a little of both light and or camera settings. Just can't seem to get them right.
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2012)

Was the powder in the pic still wet or damp when it was taken? Color can sometimes indicate purity, sometimes not. Remember particulate size can determine color variations. I've had every spectrum under the rainbow. Last week i had some that was so finely divided and washed and cleaned so good that it looked pink. Gold refining amazes me!

Look!!! A butterfly!


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## Geo (Jul 19, 2012)

actually, it looks good to me. you will never really know until you melt and have it tested. if its not what you expected, well, it will give you a chance to refine solids.

i just melted 7.4 grams of twice refined powder that was much darker than that and it tested 99.5 so looks can be deceiving.


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## jeneje (Jul 19, 2012)

Hey... Guys, yes the pic was taken while the gold was still in the water Palladium. Geo i hope mine turns out as good as yours. I am now onto another project that is a bit more...how shall i say...trying! Mistantic acid. I have some old pins i started a while back. I think about 9months ago now. Anyway been researching and it seems removing Mistantic acid is a bear to say the least. 

The feed stock was some low grade pins for IDE cables. I did not have a cell so i used HNO3 to remove base metals and now have the gold traped in this white sludge.

I tried using a few drops of sulfuric with heat - very little success, I don't think it Mercury, i also tried disolving some in a test tube with ammonia no luck there either so silver seems to be out. 

If you know of any good threads to read or a different search term it would be appreciated. In Hoke she talked about removing the lead and tin refering to jewerly. I am going to do more research in the morning as it late here. Yet another learning process to become a better refiner.

Again thanks for the help and have a great day.
Ken


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## Geo (Jul 20, 2012)

tin oxidizes in nitric acid. thats what makes it insoluble. dry the sludge and incinerate it.you should be able to remove most of it with hcl bath. we use the name metastannic acid although in chemistry terms its sort of a mythical compound.stannic compounds is something we both need and hate. if you dissolve pins that are spring loaded (the connecting pin pushes back to the corresponding connection) it can be a bronze alloy specially made for electronics.the tin is part of the pin.no matter how you dissolve them, whether nitric or hcl, there will be tin in the solution. when dealing with tin oxide, when you bring the tin above the boiling point of tin, it will cast off an atom of oxygen converting from tin(II)oxide to tin(I)oxide. to be honest, i really am just learning what all this stuff means and i dont mean to come off like i really know what im talking about. im just copying most of this from wiki and the web. i do know that if you incinerate metastannic acid from dissolving tin in nitric acid, you can then dissolve it in hcl. metastannic acid is insoluble, so if you have a decent amount of gold in it, you can simply dissolve the foils using hcl/Cl and gravity filter the solution out. of course you will have to stir constantly to get all the foils to dissolve.

good luck.


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## jeneje (Jul 21, 2012)

Hello all, well it's in here is a pic of the gold the pic shows it being dark but i can tell you it is a nice golden tan color and fluffy, looks like tan coffee grounds. The weight 16.2 grams. :lol: 
Ken

edited a better pic of the gold powder


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## eeTHr (Jul 21, 2012)

jeneje---

The top picture in your previous post, the directly overhead view, looks to be a good color.




Geo said:


> i just melted 7.4 grams of twice refined powder that was much darker than that and it tested 99.5 so looks can be deceiving.



Fine gold is .999, so to my way of thinking, refined gold is .999.

If you are selling to an honest refiner, or to a middleman who takes a good XRF reading, then the exact purity doesn't make much difference. But if you want to sell casting grain to a jeweler, for spot or more, then it has to be fine gold. That .005 difference can cost you several percentage points. Just a thought.... 8)


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## jeneje (Jul 21, 2012)

eeTHr said:


> jeneje---
> 
> The top picture in your previous post, the directly overhead view, looks to be a good color.
> 
> ...


Thanks eeTHr, I think it turned out good, i'm kind of proud of it. I am going to sell it i don't know weather to melt or sell it like it is.
Ken


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## glorycloud (Jul 21, 2012)

Looks nice but the gold buttons always look better to me! 8)


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## Palladium (Jul 21, 2012)

Melt it !!!!! It's a real satisfaction for all your work to hold that button.
Plus it adds practice for your melting skills, cleaning of the button, as well as gives you visual clues about your refining procedure you will only learn by doing it. The procedure isn't over til it's over. :mrgreen:


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## ericrm (Jul 21, 2012)

i agree with palladium here,melt it... seing your face on that little yellow button make it realy magic 8)


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## jeneje (Jul 22, 2012)

I agree guys, :lol: melt it is!! I have only melted one other time and it did not come out to good, and tips you want give away here. I can always refine again if it turns out bad. :lol: 
Ken


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## ericrm (Jul 22, 2012)

purity will be everything...


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## maynman1751 (Jul 22, 2012)

If you have doubts, re-refine it now while it's still powder!


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## jeneje (Jul 22, 2012)

maynman1751 said:


> If you have doubts, re-refine it now while it's still powder!


Hey maynman, i have no doubs about the purity - its my ability to melt it right. I have a melting dish I used for silver once but i know if i use it i will contaminate the powder. 

Also i not sure if i need to use some kind of flux with it. I have been doing research on melting and each person has their own technique, but the overall melting process seems streight foward. I will have to get another melting dish for gold this week and im going to try and see how it comes out, it a need to know thing.
Ken


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## ericrm (Jul 22, 2012)

simply use borax in a virgin(clean) dish, melt it realy hot(enuf to be able to move it freely) that will make a movement(i think)inside the liquid gold and allow some impurity to surface and come in contact with borax
this is what i do


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## Geo (Jul 22, 2012)

there is a misconception about how much contamination can be removed by borax flux. the borax serves two purposes, its a lubricant to keep the gold from sticking to the dish and soak up the minute amount of impurities from the torch during melting.it will also trap a slight amount of salt if any made it through the washes and rinses but theres only so much it can do. dont rely on borax to clean your gold.


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## ericrm (Jul 22, 2012)

i never rely on borax to clean my gold but it is an honest mistake from me because i realy tought it would "eat a lot" of oxide and salt since when i recover my gold i just dry it without cleaning (a lot of salt appear) and melt it(and loose those salt).
thank you Geo for clarifing that


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## maynman1751 (Jul 22, 2012)

> its my ability to melt it right


What kind of torch are you using? What is your melting dish setting on while melting? These are a couple things that can effect the appearance of your bead (heat and insulation).


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## jeneje (Jul 22, 2012)

maynman1751 said:


> > its my ability to melt it right
> 
> 
> What kind of torch are you using? What is your melting dish setting on while melting? These are a couple things that can effect the appearance of your bead (heat and insulation).


Hey maynman, i have an acetelyne setup, no insulation just a flat surface. 
Ken


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## ericrm (Jul 22, 2012)

put insolation under your dish, never ever do it over concrete NEVER . i use safeandsound mineral woolunder mine because this is what i have...


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## maynman1751 (Jul 22, 2012)

jeneje said:


> maynman1751 said:
> 
> 
> > > its my ability to melt it right
> ...


Like Eric said, insulate under your dish, although with oxy/acet you shouldn't have any problems getting it hot enough. That's what I use and I have my dish setting on a fire brick....no insulation. Good Luck! :mrgreen:


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## Geo (Jul 23, 2012)

with oxy/acet, you run the risk of blowing your gold powder out of the dish. dont attempt a melt without something large enough to catch any that blows out. cut the gas to its lowest possible pressure without the flame popping. you want a slightly reducing flame (more gas,less oxygen). a blue flame a couple of inches long will not hurt. when you melt the borax with a reducing flame, it will turn black from the carbon. dont worry. when the borax reaches a red hot state, it will turn as clear as glass. be sure theres enough borax to coat the entire inner surface but not so much it puddles up in the bottom. just a nice shiny wet look all over the inside surface. heat the dish to red hot, move the flame and dump in the powder gently. play the flame around the outside edge of the dish until the powder starts to bead up and gradually move the flame inward melting the powder as you go until its all molten. pick up the dish gently while you keep the gold melted and gently, gently swirl the button around the inside of the dish to pick up any stray beads. once all the beads have been picked up, move the flame away and continue to gently swirl so the button doesnt stick to the borax or keep the flame on the button until you pour it into a mold.


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## tek4g63 (Jul 23, 2012)

I use mapp gas, but the process is the same as geo described above except I do the last part differently.After I have played the bead around to pick up all the stragglers, I remove the heat and watch the button carefully to see it form the pipe. As soon as I see that pipe form I quickly pluck the button from the dish before the borax hardens and place it on a piece of stainless steel sheet to cool.

I'm not saying my way is the way you should do it, just wanted to share the way I make a button.


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## maynman1751 (Jul 23, 2012)

Geo said:


> with oxy/acet, you run the risk of blowing your gold powder out of the dish. dont attempt a melt without something large enough to catch any that blows out. cut the gas to its lowest possible pressure without the flame popping. you want a slightly reducing flame (more gas,less oxygen). a blue flame a couple of inches long will not hurt. when you melt the borax with a reducing flame, it will turn black from the carbon. dont worry. when the borax reaches a red hot state, it will turn as clear as glass. be sure theres enough borax to coat the entire inner surface but not so much it puddles up in the bottom. just a nice shiny wet look all over the inside surface. heat the dish to red hot, move the flame and dump in the powder gently. play the flame around the outside edge of the dish until the powder starts to bead up and gradually move the flame inward melting the powder as you go until its all molten. pick up the dish gently while you keep the gold melted and gently, gently swirl the button around the inside of the dish to pick up any stray beads. once all the beads have been picked up, move the flame away and continue to gently swirl so the button doesnt stick to the borax or keep the flame on the button until you pour it into a mold.


Very nice and accurate description Geo! Ken, follow these directions and you should have no problems.


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## jeneje (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks guys, i will follow what you all suggest to do, I have to get a fitting for torch and i should have it done this afternoon I will post a pic for all to see.
Thanks
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 23, 2012)

Great instructions by Geo! Only thing i will add is watch how you dump the material into the dish. It will be giving off some serious heat after you warm the dish up and if you get to close while the dish is hot your hands will know it! Your first reaction is to drop something. Don't you dare !!!!!!! :evil:


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## jeneje (Jul 30, 2012)

Alright guys, i got my new melting dish from lazersteve today. ( Thanks Steve) I have 20 mule team borax will this work for the melt? Are there any other special pre melting procedures other then what you have told me on this thread i need to know before doing this to get a prefect :lol: button.
Maybe :lol: 
Thanks
Ken


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## maynman1751 (Jul 30, 2012)

Ken, yes 20 mule team is perfect! Just remember to heat your dish SSSLLLOOOOOWWWWLLLLYYYYYY! to avoid cracking. Once hot, sprinkle with borax(not too much). Just enough to glaze the surface and make it shiny. Heat to melt the borax. Add your powders and melt. Pull the bead before the borax hardens(as soon as you see the gold 'set').
Never mind! Geo already went through this. DUH!


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## jeneje (Jul 30, 2012)

Had a set back air hose sprang a leak, had to go and buy a new set but i'm ready now. What would i use to pour the gold in, i have now mold. 
Ken


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## jeneje (Jul 30, 2012)

It's here and she a great one, borned at 5:15 today and weighted 12.2 grams. 
Thanks guys for the help.
Ken


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## Palladium (Jul 30, 2012)

Congratulations on the newest member to your family. Good thing is they don't eat much and they are sure pretty to look at.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 30, 2012)

She is a beauty just like you said.. 8) Send her over when you get ready.


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## maynman1751 (Jul 30, 2012)

Nice goin' Ken. Beautiful baby!


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## jeneje (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks everybody, its been a great experince processing this one. Here is another pic beside a penny.
Ken


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## ericrm (Jul 30, 2012)

very nice button , the dark spot in front is it you taking the picture ? 8) 8)


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## jeneje (Jul 30, 2012)

ericrm said:


> very nice button , the dark spot in front is it you taking the picture ? 8) 8)


Yeah its me, always in the way of something :lol: 
Ken


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## jmdlcar (Jul 30, 2012)

Nice button keep it up.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 30, 2012)

You are sucked in now for life never to be released.


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## jeneje (Jul 31, 2012)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> You are sucked in now for life never to be released.


Yeah it's great :mrgreen: Nothing shines like gold. 8)


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