# Pouring ingots?



## Paige (Apr 18, 2007)

Steve shows some nice ingots. How does he do it?

It seems if you use a furnace, by the time you got the AU out @ 2350F it would cool before your poured it.

Would you use a rigged pourer like Steve shows and a lot of heat to melt say an ounce and have a friend heating your graphite mold at the same time?

Acetalyne (sp?) is supposedto introduce carbon into gold. Mapp + O2????


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## Harold_V (Apr 18, 2007)

Gold has little desire to combine with carbon, so that's a non-issue. If it was a problem, graphite molds wouldn't be used. 

I poured gold ingots as large as 10 troy ounces using natural gas and oxygen as my source of heat, with a Hoke torch. Works very well, assuming you heat the gold to pouring temperature. All of my ingot molds were made of cast iron. They were preheated and blackened by a smokey acetylene torch prior to casting. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 18, 2007)

Good looking bars. It's hard to get them right on the money but, you came as close as is humanly possible. I assume you sold them at an even 10oz. How did you weigh them to that accuracy? Analytical balance?


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## Harold_V (Apr 19, 2007)

goldsilverpro said:


> Good looking bars. It's hard to get them right on the money but, you came as close as is humanly possible. I assume you sold them at an even 10oz. How did you weigh them to that accuracy? Analytical balance?



Yes, an analytical balance, with weights made by a company run by a Swiss gentleman and his son (Heusser Instrument Co.) in Salt Lake City. They specialized in analytical, assay and bullion balances and were an accepted source for certification. I still have the weights and balance. 

The weights were more precise than the balance, so I'd weigh them on both pans and use the average. Only talking tenths of a grain difference, so the balance was pretty decent.

Hitting the weight was a tough proposition, and I never altered an ingot. Didn't matter how closely you weighed the material, there was usually a tiny prill that remained in the dish. I learned to flux just enough, and to keep the flux (*ONLY * borax)very fresh. None ever transferred to the ingot, but it was slick enough to permit a complete emptying of the dish. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 19, 2007)

I took the easy way out. Whatever they weighed, that's what they were. I didn't stamp the gold, since I sent it off and never had any arguments with weight. With the silver I made 100's and 10's in graphite book molds. That way, you didn't have to weigh each melt. Cutting off the sprues was a pain. I stamped all the silver and sold it to individuals. I stamped exact weights but they all were a little different. Stamping 100, 10 oz bars was a real chore, with our name, weight, tr.oz., and 999.9 fine silver but, I got pretty good at it. Assembly line. And, I got a good premium from individuals.


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## Harold_V (Apr 19, 2007)

Heh! Notice how nice and orderly my marking was? It's nice to have a machining background. I used insert stamping tooling for all my ingots, and an arbor press to make the impression. You could control the outcome perfectly, almost as good as engraving. 

I actually poured very few ingots in all my years. I don't have one of my own, although my nephew apparently ended up with a small one----2 ounces (gold) as I recall. I wasn't nuts about casting and marking them, for it was quite a slow process. 

I encouraged my customers to accept shot, which actually was the best way for them to receive gold. 

Silver? Would you believe all of them accepted crystal? Unless I poured ingots, I never melted my silver. Still have thousands of ounces of the stuff and wonder what the hell I'm going to do with it. I see a furnace in my future, so I could find myself back in the ingot business, like it or not. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 19, 2007)

I stamped one number or letter at a time.

The few times I shipped silver, I poured 500 oz bars in smoked cast iron molds. The limit for USPS was 70#. I put 2 bars in a sealed 5 gal bucket for shipping, using lead security seals. At the time, it cost about $1/pound to ship about 2000 miles - USPS registered.


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## Paige (Apr 19, 2007)

Those ae beautiful. Thank you for the post.


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## Paige (Apr 25, 2007)

I have seen graphite moulds. What do you think of those? Where do you find cast iron moulds? Where do you find a book mould?

Thank you.

Paige


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## jimdoc (Apr 25, 2007)

Here is shor's mold page;
They have the adjustable type.
http://shorinternational.com/IngotTongGlove.htm


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## Harold_V (Apr 26, 2007)

Paige said:


> I have seen graphite moulds. What do you think of those?



The only problem I'd have with a graphite mold is that it slowly burns away. It sure solves all your problems if you're comfortable with using one, at least it appears that way. I always used iron, so if there are associated problems, I am not aware. 



> Where do you find cast iron moulds?



Heh! I was never lucky enough to find one. I'm a machinist by trade, and ran my own commercial shop for a living when I started refining. I made my own molds------and everything else in the way of equipment. 



> Where do you find a book mould?



I made only one----a gang mold for casting gold anodes for a cell I never operated. I have no clue where you might purchase such a mold, but GSP may have an idea or two. I never relied on any outside sources for anything except for chemicals and labware. It was very convenient to have my machine shop at my disposal.  

Harold


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## darkelf2x1 (Apr 26, 2007)

does anyone do them in clay? because im planning to make one so that i can measure out and then let the bar form as its heateded


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 26, 2007)

On occasion, I have melted pure gold in a new clay assay crucible, along with a little borax, in a box furnace. After melting, I removed it, let it cool, and broke the crucible. I then tapped off the slag with about a 3/16" steel rod. The resulting "ingot" was round, not unlike the button you would get from torch melting in a melting dish. I suppose you could fashion some fire clay in a square shape, fire it, and then do about the same thing. Making the molds to stand up, though, might be more difficult than you'd think.


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## darkelf2x1 (Apr 27, 2007)

molten gold does eat fire brick... learned that the hard way when i had a crucible fail in my kiln... it was the rough yellow kind


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## postmako (Jul 6, 2007)

Harold_V said:


> Gold has little desire to combine with carbon, so that's a non-issue. If it was a problem, graphite molds wouldn't be used.
> 
> I poured gold ingots as large as 10 troy ounces using natural gas and oxygen as my source of heat, with a Hoke torch. Works very well, assuming you heat the gold to pouring temperature. All of my ingot molds were made of cast iron. They were preheated and blackened by a smokey acetylene torch prior to casting.
> 
> Harold



No one called him out on this? That is like $32,000 worth of gold! Hopefully he still has them for retirement.


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## aflacglobal (Jul 6, 2007)

postmako said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > Gold has little desire to combine with carbon, so that's a non-issue. If it was a problem, graphite molds wouldn't be used.
> ...



Where you see $32,000 at ?


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## jimdoc (Jul 6, 2007)

He is going by the five bars in the picture
at todays prices.
They could have been worth $35 an ounce
depending on when the picture was taken,
or when they were sold, that would be $1,750
That wasn't that long ago.
Jim


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## Harold_V (Jul 6, 2007)

Those ingots were cast back in '80-----when gold was at roughly the same price you see today. 

Don't lose sight of the fact that I refined commercially. Not all metal I refined and cast (or poured as shot) was mine-----

Harold


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## postmako (Jul 7, 2007)

Harold_V said:


> Those ingots were cast back in '80-----when gold was at roughly the same price you see today.
> 
> Don't lose sight of the fact that I refined commercially. Not all metal I refined and cast (or poured as shot) was mine-----
> 
> Harold



Yeah but I'm sure it felt good to hold them though!


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 7, 2007)

One time, in the mid to late '60's, the company I worked for had $1,000,000 in pure gold in the safe. There were about 60, 400 oz bars (27# each). Gold was $42/oz. Today, there would be less than 4 bars. My son was about 4 and I took him to see them on a Saturday. When I held them, I decided that was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life


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## postmako (Jul 7, 2007)

goldsilverpro said:


> One time, in the mid to late '60's, the company I worked for had $1,000,000 in pure gold in the safe. There were about 60, 400 oz bars (27# each). Gold was $42/oz. Today, there would be less than 4 bars. My son was about 4 and I took him to see them on a Saturday. When I held them, I decided that was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life



Wasn't gold $35 an ounce because of the Brenton (sp?) Woods agreement?

Yes gold and silver have that power. The power of gold and silver is why I am here as well (still learning though). That is why we need to go back to real money (but then gold would soar to about $5k - $10k an ounce). Maybe Ron Paul can help? Thanks for being a member and helping newbies like myself.


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## Harold_V (Jul 8, 2007)

I'm not up to speed on the technicalities of government, and I'm not a student of history, but as I recall, gold was revalued in '32 by Roosevelt, when the gold reserve act was signed. Prior to that, it was valued @ $20.67/ ounce. That's the value of gold that was used to strike US coinage. I'm open to correction if I have it wrong. 

When you think about it, the price of gold gong up is not really a good thing. What it's telling you is your dollar has lost buying power. Seems to me that an ounce of gold still weighs 480 grains, so the only thing that's changed is that it takes more of my dollars to purchase those 480 grains. 

The gold reserve act made it illegal to own bullion, to melt or otherwise process gold without a federal license, and you were drastically limited in the number of gold coins you could own as a collector. You might recall that the gold coins were called back, with the very late ones being melted and cast in 300 ounce 900 fine bars. That made the late US gold coins amongst the most valuable of all because few survived. 

Only those with gold holdings benefit when the official price of gold is raised, if you get my drift. 

Harold


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## postmako (Jul 8, 2007)

Harold_V said:


> I'm not up to speed on the technicalities of government, and I'm not a student of history, but as I recall, gold was revalued in '32 by Roosevelt, when the gold reserve act was signed. Prior to that, it was valued @ $20.67/ ounce. That's the value of gold that was used to strike US coinage. I'm open to correction if I have it wrong.



Gold was that price until 1934. But in 1933 they stole all of the people's gold and the following year they raised the gold price to $35 an ounce. The Brentton (sp?) Woods agreement kept gold at that price until the 60's and 70's at which point Nixon in 1971 said that they are temporarily suspending payments in gold, it wasn't until 1975 that they allowed people to buy gold. Well we are still waiting for them to lift the temporary suspension, aren't we?



Harold_V said:


> When you think about it, the price of gold gong up is not really a good thing. What it's telling you is your dollar has lost buying power. Seems to me that an ounce of gold still weighs 480 grains, so the only thing that's changed is that it takes more of my dollars to purchase those 480 grains.



Exactly, more demand for gold and less demand for the paper. 



Harold_V said:


> The gold reserve act made it illegal to own bullion, to melt or otherwise process gold without a federal license, and you were drastically limited in the number of gold coins you could own as a collector. You might recall that the gold coins were called back, with the very late ones being melted and cast in 300 ounce 900 fine bars. That made the late US gold coins amongst the most valuable of all because few survived.



Yes, exactly. Did you hear of that lady that had 10 of those 1933 $20 coins valued at $7 million each and the government confiscated them from her?

Cheers,
Kory


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## aflacglobal (Jul 8, 2007)

goldsilverpro said:


> One time, in the mid to late '60's, the company I worked for had $1,000,000 in pure gold in the safe. There were about 60, 400 oz bars (27# each). Gold was $42/oz. Today, there would be less than 4 bars. My son was about 4 and I took him to see them on a Saturday. When I held them, I decided that was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life



It's funny where life takes us. What was you original precieved course of life GSP ?

Ralph


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## Harold_V (Jul 8, 2007)

postmako said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not up to speed on the technicalities of government, and I'm not a student of history, but as I recall, gold was revalued in '32 by Roosevelt, when the gold reserve act was signed. Prior to that, it was valued @ $20.67/ ounce. That's the value of gold that was used to strike US coinage. I'm open to correction if I have it wrong.
> ...



Thanks for the correction, although I'll likely have it wrong the next time I discuss the issue, too!  



> The Brentton (sp?) Woods agreement kept gold at that price until the 60's and 70's at which point Nixon in 1971 said that they are temporarily suspending payments in gold, it wasn't until 1975 that they allowed people to buy gold. Well we are still waiting for them to lift the temporary suspension, aren't we?



I recall that the market price of gold had soared to well over $100/ounce, and foreign governments were demanding payment of debts in gold, although @ the official valuation. In a sense, it appears we were forced to go off the gold standard, otherwise our reserves would have been depleted at bargain basement prices (for the recipients). 

By the way, I welcomed the change in legislation that occurred on Jan. 1, 1975. I had been refining gold on a limited basis for a couple years by then, always looking over my shoulder. I was in the right place at the right time----for my limited experience placed me in front of the pack, and allowed me to start refining for others, already having been through the learning curve. My full time refining venture evolved from that experience----it was never planned. 



> Did you hear of that lady that had 10 of those 1933 $20 coins valued at $7 million each and the government confiscated them from her?
> 
> Cheers,
> Kory



I've not heard the story, but I recall that only five of any one date of any given coin could be retained (that allowed collectors to keep their collections). The confiscation may have been because the late gold coins were never officially released to the public, at least as I understand the situation. Having possession of any of them would have had to occurred under suspicious circumstances. 

Did you ever read the consequences of defying the gold reserve act? Ten years in prison with a hefty fine for something as simple as melting one's own wedding ring-----something I did with great delight when I divorced my ex-wife. Lucky for me, that was after Jan. of '75, but I'd have been willing to risk it earlier! :lol: 

Harold


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## aflacglobal (Jul 8, 2007)

Ten years in prison with a hefty fine for something as simple as melting one's own wedding ring-----something I did with great delight when I divorced my ex-wife. Lucky for me, that was after Jan. of '75, but I'd have been willing to risk it earlier!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Hummm i might even try this one. I'm not divorced, but this could lead to it. :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 8, 2007)

Ralph. Money and women, not necessarily in that order. I was educated as a physicist.

I was thinking about the gold price of 1969 and 1971.

http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx


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## postmako (Jul 9, 2007)

goldsilverpro said:


> Ralph. Money and women, not necessarily in that order. I was educated as a physicist.



I'm a physicist as well. Graduated Summa Cum Laude (if that means anything) from Washington University in St. Louis. Good to see a fellow physicist! 

Cheers,
Kory


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