# Musings



## Harold_V (Jun 3, 2013)

Been checking the odd post, as time allows. 
Seems like things never change. That, dear readers, is not a good thing. 

There has never been a shortage of folks who want to do things their way. Preconceived notions tend to dictate their sense of direction, much to my chagrin, as once I've read a post where an individual has disregarded all that is known to work and doggedly pursues what he *wants* to work, for reasons best known to him, I tend to not respond. 

I'm not fond of spitting in to the wind, nor do I feel that my making mention of something that has been mentioned innumerable times, will serve a purpose. Until such an individual burns himself to the ground in failure, nothing is going to distract him from the course he has set. It is usually only then that he may welcome input, seeking someone to bail out his sorry butt, when it all could have been avoided at the outset by simply reading and following the advice that is given so freely on this board. Yet they never learn, as if each person who pursues this course is exempt, somehow. 

Statements like "I know the gold is there"---when no mention of testing with stannous chloride are included. 

How do you "know" that? Have you not had the experience whereby you have dissolved values in the presence of base metals, only to have the base metals cement the values, leaving you with a solution barren of values? In some cases, the gold, which is now disguised, and rarely resembles gold, has been discarded. Sounds like sticking to your guns is really working, eh?

Only a fool "knows" where his values are. The rest of us use stannous chloride, and do so routinely. Why not? It's one of the few ways you really can "know" where your values are, and they often are not where you think they are. 

Hoke's book? Nah, I haven't bothered. Don't need it, as I already know what I *want* to do. 

Well, that you want to do it doesn't mean it's going to work, and you'd learn that by reading Hoke's book. Beyond that, you'd learn some of the basics that apply to refining---which are all essential if you hope to be able to converse with those who frequent this forum and have something to offer. Beyond that, you'd start to understand the value of testing, and how to test. 

I'm going to waste a little more of my time----again.

Read Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what she teaches. Do not post your ignorance by asking how to be bailed out when you shouldn't have found yourself there in the first place. 
Perform the experiments she describes. Make the test and standard solutions she recommends. Do all of that before you try to refine. Spend some time learning what you're trying to do----and if you prefer to not *waste* your time doing so, don't be too surprised when you are not treated kindly for displaying your entitlement attitude on the board. 

I have grown weary. It comes as no surprise to me that some of the moderators have pulled back and do not contribute much these days (myself included). I think we've all grown tired of whipping a dead horse.

Harold


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## g_axelsson (Jun 3, 2013)

I totally agree with you. 

The most "amusing" thing I read the last days is the guy telling
I did this step, this step... and finally this step. I don't get any gold but I know I haven't done anything wrong!
Reality check, if you didn't get any gold you did something wrong. I didn't feel it was worth the time it would take to have him realize that he had done something wrong so I just backed off from answering it.

I would gladly help anyone that at least show some humility going into a new area and that at least try to do some research by themselves. No, watching videos on youtube isn't research.

But one of the most annoying things lately is the mediocre language skills. Wouldn't it be nice if people learned to use the "preview" button before posting something? It is so much easier to spot any spelling errors when you read the text you wrote slightly differently laid out. Just spend that extra time to make it easier for all those who will be reading your post. (No, not your post, Harry ;-) )
And please, to anyone concerned, you "break CPU:s", not "brake CPU:s"!

The biggest problem with the forum nowadays is the amount of noise compared to the few good postings. It is getting harder and harder to find the relevant threads among all the others.

By the way, I haven't read Hoke yet but I bought her book two months ago. :mrgreen: 

Göran


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## jeneje (Jun 3, 2013)

Have you heard the phase *" they don't do it like the older people do" *it seems the younger generation have fresh ideals and they want to combine the two together to make it better. Change is good...but when change happens, it always has to have a solid foundation. This is where reading and understanding CM Hokes writings come into play. 

I joined this site on my birthday in 2011, I knowed how to make AR to dissolve gold...but what I did not know I could write a book on. No where in the sites I found on the internet did I find out that you needed only to use a small amount HNO3 in Ml to dissolve your gold, nor did I find out about denoxing my solution to remove excess nitric or the gold would not drop. No body told me that I needed to mix up stannous to test for gold or even the color it would change to. I only found this information here. 

I am a beginner! I can set here and tell you that there is *NO* site on the internet that has more information on the subject of recovery and refinement of precious metals then this one. 

Harold, I wish I could tell you that everybody will read Hokes book and ask only good questions, but you know the answer to that. What concerns me the most is they have the good common sense to be safe.

I for one am very glad you are a member here,

Ken


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## solar_plasma (Jun 3, 2013)

Along with New Age people have developed an attitude, that makes them believe, they have the free will to choose doing what ever they want:
"An it harm none, do what thou wilt"
and some even think:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
As the mental children of the old alchemists, loving the "magic" of chemistry, we surely are influenced by this New Age attitude, but the difference between many new ones to this is, that some quickly understand (others not), that they first have to get the awareness of what their real "will" is. It is not the choice of a tv channel, but the choice of a dream and creation of a reality from that dream. To know what your real "will" is, will always be incident to a process of internal work, reading, thinking, asking yourself, searching for answers, maybe asking others, if it is possible, that one little hint can bring you in the right direction, until you know what, why and how. Like in the teachings of traditional magic, also here you have to be able to visualize every step of what you want to do before you can make it real. In fact I believe there is no magic in it, it is the way things work, - always. Whenever I did not succeed, not only in my recovery experiments, I had not followed this law.

And here we come to the difference between knowlegable people and experts. The expert has that much consolidated knowledge and experience, that he often in seconds will do the right decision without even being able to explain exactly why. Most of us can not expect to become experts to this art. Maybe we are in our jobs on some fields, - everyone who is, knows, what I am talking about.


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## TomVader (Jun 4, 2013)

Harold,
I've only been a member here for a short time, but I can see that it would be very frustrating posting the same advice and information over and over.
Please don't get discouraged. You've been here from the beginning, think about the vast number of people you've helped become the successful refiners they are today. Let them take up the burden for a while.
People are lazy and stupid and as they casually browse the internet and stumble upon an idea as tantalizing as refining gold at home, they're ready to jump right in and possibly kill themselves. A little information is very dangerous. This forum is the only place they can get the right information about what they are trying to do and how to do it safely.
This forum quite probably saved my life. I came upon the idea of refining gold and was ready to go after a couple of YouTube videos. I happened upon this forum just in time to make me stop and read and take the necessary precautions. You and the other experienced members provide a valuable service. I realize that it's not your job to protect people from their own stupidity, but where else are potential refiners going to get told to STOP RIGHT NOW and learn before they proceed? 
There is so much misinformation floating around in cyberspace that it's scary. It's all about sensational videos of people doing very dangerous things, but the guy that jumps his bike over a pile of burning garbage usually just ends up with minor injuries and everybody laughs. Nobody posts a video of someone inhaling NOx gases and dropping over dead.
Thank you for your experience, your willingness to share it, and your years of tireless effort.


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## solar_plasma (Jun 4, 2013)

> Nobody posts a video of someone inhaling NOx gases and dropping over dead.



There are such videos on youtube. Fx.a police officer,who runs into a cloud of NH3 and dies in front of his car camera. I don't want to discuss the ethics of such postings and I don't know, who is loading such material up to the net. But this sad event is there on the net and if you have seen it, you will think twice about safety next time you are working with your chemicals.


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## Pantherlikher (Jun 4, 2013)

Harold... From the bottom of my heart and soul, I thank you for what you have done. GEO and his "abrasivness" I thank, as well as LaserSteve and anyone else that have shared.
Being new here, I read everything and only reply to posts that I have knowledge of or can at least guide in the right direction.

I share the pain of dealing with the unknowing. Working on the automobile for almost 30 years has taught me 1 very important lesson. People believe what they wish and use it like it is fact. The only thing you can do is push safety and hope they fail only enough to realize they need to learn before diving into the empty pool....

I suggest you make a post about the proper way to tell a newby to learn before the burn(s). and allow us... being willing to read and want to help... to copy and paste the "Generic" answer to obvious. 
"STOP Now and READ"

I've been here, not often enough, but do read everything NEW, and I'm seeing the same questions of bail me out NOW My Way and replies of fixing the mess instead of stop and learn with safety being 1st and forremost.

Not many will come here, Myself included, and read the safety section. Eventually it gets read but never 1st. 

Maybe the 1st screen after logging on should be:
" stop before you hurt someone and find out what you did before posting something that will get your account shut done."
Something along these lines needs to be slapped in everyone's face as it seems the only way it gets read...while waiting for the site to load there's nothing else to do...

Sorry for your pain as you guys don't deserve it...
B.S.
... The unsung heros are the ones no one knows how much pain they bare...


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## Harold_V (Jun 5, 2013)

g_axelsson said:


> The biggest problem with the forum nowadays is the amount of noise compared to the few good postings. It is getting harder and harder to find the relevant threads among all the others.


There is rarely one more outspoken than the guy who knows little, but fancies himself all knowing. These are often the same folks who make YouTube presentations (not always), giving viewers a false sense of "anyone can do that". 

I'm not convinced it's by accident, either. Some folks simply delight in misleading others---possibly with the intention of making themselves appear to be much better at what they're doing than they are. Some purposely provide less than enough information, or even misinformation, so they look exceedingly talented because of the success they claim to achieve. 

We've seen it on this board for years. A guy comes here with virtually NO understanding of refining, yet rejects anything that might be constructive and useful to him, because it often is not what he wants to hear---although it is what he MUST hear. 

For folks with this mindset I say---good luck. You're going to need it. 



> By the way, I haven't read Hoke yet but I bought her book two months ago.



Chuckle!

Well, Göran, some folks need to read Hoke, and some don't. I certainly wouldn't expect Lou to read her book when he's well educated in the field---but most folks aren't. 

I'm the first to admit---if a reader already understands how to refine, her book may be nothing short of a waste of time---but how many come here with that qualification? Even those who are schooled in the way of chemistry may not understand the mechanics of refining-----which would be perfectly logical to me.

However, I'm thinking that you owning and reading her book will better you in ways you may not understand right now. For me, it was everything. For others, maybe not so much. 

Harold


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## chemdom (Jun 5, 2013)

Harold,

From my personal experience I can say that I learned a lot of reading Hoke, although I have a PhD in Chemistry. I think the latter makes it easier to understand what is being written in the book, but reading it still remains a big plus for every (non-)chemist that wants to start refining. 

I think people here that want to start refining in a serious way will take all the information that is written down here as a nice guideline. People that want to do it there own way, I think you can never protect them against themselves and against their own bias and stupidity. That's just human nature and maybe a part of evolution to a certain extent.

Thanks again to you and all the other senior members for all the sound advice and experience,

Johan


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## nickvc (Jun 5, 2013)

Harold I'm afraid I'm not going to agree with you about Hoke. The understanding of chemistry certainly will not make you a good refiner, it will give you a head start but it certainly will not make you an instant success. Lou I will assume has learnt his craft on the back of his undoubted chemistry knowledge and background, theoretical chemistry and practical chemistry are almost two different disciplines IMHO, it may just be mine, but experience over the beakers to me is more important than reading about it. 
We both learnt the same way, you found Hoke and had the advantage, I just copied what I had seen and assimilated watching others and learning by my own mistakes, many many of them including losing all my PGMs due to a lack of knowledge on my behalf, you had that wonderful book to guide you but still had to make many mistakes at your own expense to learn your craft.
Those that come here to the forum are all extremely lucky that they can by reading have the best minds in refining and recovery available to them for free with advice and help again available free if they only do one thing....Read Hoke till it makes sense, no she doesn't cover every method or process and certain materias such as e scrap but boy she gives you the tools to further your own education and give you a chance to become an able if not an excellent refiner.
I like many other members refuse to give advice where the poster will not listen to those who have been there before them and know exactly the outcome and so plough on believing themselves to be right despite evidence to the contrary, they I'm afraid are on their own as far as I'm concerned.
Read the book and study here on the forum and be grateful when told to stop processing before you kill yourself , family, pets or neighbours or lose all those hard earned values.
I can honestly say I have learnt more here on the forum and by reading Hoke, yes I have a copy now, than I did in all the years I was refining professionally, if I can find a value in that book why the heck can't newbies, I also read and follow most posts and learn even more and I still make mistakes but hopefully now I know the cure, if not I'm sure by researching here on the forum I can find it.
There are no excuses for the messes that so many people find themselves in from what I read constantly here on the forum. There is blame to be apportioned and that's the poster and their own ignorance neither of which are necessary if they read Hoke and study the forum, it's all here, it's free, use it!


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## Harold_V (Jun 5, 2013)

chemdom said:


> Harold,
> 
> From my personal experience I can say that I learned a lot of reading Hoke, although I have a PhD in Chemistry. I think the latter makes it easier to understand what is being written in the book, but reading it still remains a big plus for every (non-)chemist that wants to start refining.


Thanks for confirming my thoughts, chemdom. You grasped the intended message perfectly. 

Some time after I started refining, my mother remarried, having buried my father from death due to cancer several years previously. The gentleman she married had a daughter, who was (and is) married to a fellow who is now a professor in one of the mid-west universities. His field is chemistry. He openly admitted that while he might understand the processes chemically, he was not familiar with the mechanics of refining. I was highly honored to have him tip his hat to me in that regard. This professor is published in his field--catalysis, and is named Dennis Bennett. If you know him, tell him hello for me. 

There is nothing like hands-on experience, but it should be achieved by reliable guidance and an understanding of what should be expected, and how to troubleshoot when the end result isn't in keeping with that which is expected. Without a basic understanding of the processes, that may not be a reasonable expectation. 

From my vantage point, it is now becoming apparent that we, as a group, made a mistake by welcoming everyone to the forum. It should have been restricted to those with an earnest desire to learn the processes, and for the right reasons. All too many appear to think of this entire matter as a way to grab money and run, without exerting the least bit of effort---which is far from reality. They have muddied the water for those who are keenly interested in learning the art of refining----and made it far less rewarding for those of us who have tried to help in their quest. Our rewards have been few, although we are proud to acknowledge that some have excelled in the field. They owe credit to themselves, for having the wisdom to follow tendered advice, and learning from the ground up. 

I am getting old and crotchety. I am not willing to tolerate those who refuse to comply with our procedures here. Learn the basics, or please leave. You can make a huge stride forward by reading Hoke's book. There are other publications, yes, but her book will build the foundation on which the rest can be added. Without the fundamentals, you will remain in the dark, clueless. 

Read Hoke. Read Hoke again. Read Hoke until what you read makes sense. Don't ask questions until it does, for the answers will simply lead to more questions. Who needs that?

Harold


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## Shaul (Jun 5, 2013)

Harold;

The magazine 'The Mother Earth News' (during part of the 1970's - 1980's) ran a monthly feature entitled 'Let the Men and Women of Wisdom Speak'. The quote from the Nov. 1974 issue sums it up perfectly, it reads: 

"The warnings are not heard. If heard, they are not believed. If believed, they are not thought to apply to the believer." 
It was signed: 'An unidentified writer in The London Times'.
Personally, it could just as well have been written (and perhaps was)... by You.

But refining aside, You hold a unique and respected position on this forum. For who else has the ability to attain and hold the Moral High Ground, to enforce a standard of Ethical Conduct on the members and to do it consistently (for years). You have done an admirable job of it and I have only the highest respect for you. Ethically, it would be wrong to urge you to continue doing what you've done 'til now (seeing as how it causes you pain and frustration), but on the other hand, I cannot bring myself to encourage you to quit. So, I am at an Impasse.
But regardless of whichever decision you decide to make, (in my mind) you are and shall always remain 'the Patriarch'.


Shaul


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## Claudie (Jun 5, 2013)

*" I think we've all grown tired of whipping a dead horse."*

If the horse is really dead, cart it away and burn it, bury it, or send it off to the glue factory, but if the horse is still moaning, it's obviously not dead. :|


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## Geo (Jun 5, 2013)

i may or may not have gained as much knowledge as i have (what little it is) if it had not been for Harold guiding me when i needed it and scolding me when i needed that. i read ms. Hokes book a couple of years ago and still go back over things im interested in at the time.reading books on processes is kind of like reading programming instructions on the old VCR's, i could only understand it as i was doing it.i certainly miss Harold's wisdom and i know its selfish of me to feel this way but, i would rather Harold be here in any capacity than to not be here at all.


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## kkmonte (Jun 5, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> > Nobody posts a video of someone inhaling NOx gases and dropping over dead.
> 
> 
> 
> There are such videos on youtube. Fx.a police officer,who runs into a cloud of NH3 and dies in front of his car camera. I don't want to discuss the ethics of such postings and I don't know, who is loading such material up to the net. But this sad event is there on the net and if you have seen it, you will think twice about safety next time you are working with your chemicals.



I did some research on this and it appears that the "Ammonia kills cop" video is just a training video for Illinois State Police. If you look at the 11-12 minute version, at the very end it says something of the sort of "This didn't really happen, it isn't even based on true events, however this could have easily happened".

Not saying NH3 fumes aren't dangerous or anything...


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## solar_plasma (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh, thanks for the information. In spoken english I do not understand every word, especially when they talk fast.

Then it is a good video. After all I have learned it is appears to be very realistic.


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## patnor1011 (Jun 7, 2013)

How I miss old times...

This place used to be cool hang out with people who were.... How to say that... Cool, patient, enthusiastic, simply doing stuff which they liked. Discussing refining, taking things kinda slow trying to understand, learn.
I liked every minute here and read every single post every day.
Now it is different.
Forum is being overwhelmed by youtube educated folks hell bent on pursuing their get rich quick schemes. It is very hard to communicate with somebody who is not willing to admit he do something wrong and that what he thought is holy grail of knowledge he got surfing somewhere on net is not working. People want everything and right now. I understand that times are hard for everyone but how are you going to explain to somebody that there is not pot of gold in pile of old computers when he clearly saw that on youtube? 
You will get attacked that you are selfish ignorant *(%&$%)% who do not want to share easy riches with him.
I cant simply keep up with all these new people who refuse to help themselves by just reading older threads here. 
I also noticed that moderators who used to regularly contribute are somehow quiet. I surely miss their posts. Somehow I did not see Oz in here for some time. 
What I also miss is our iron fist, person who is like father figure to a lot of us. Hope all is good with you my friend.

My opinion was stated by some other members few days back. We absolutely need to restrict new members to one section of forum where they can post whatever they like. It may be or maybe not get answered. We simply cant go like this when all parts of forum get spammed to death by threads from people who could not care less to search for answer and just fire volley of questions expecting others to solve whatever issue they have.
If you do not believe that restriction is required feel free to guide all new members answering their posts about platinum in hard drive, incinerating or nuking everything in AR and perhaps tell them that cyanide is good just that they do it when it is windy outside or at least that they have their window opened.


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