# Noob question



## RE8ELD0G (Aug 10, 2014)

Hey folks.
Im new to this recovery idea and new to this board.
I have spent many a hour searching this and other forums but im completely confused.

I want to find out how to remove the gold from circuit boards, 
but......i have heard there may be gold under a layer of plastic/solder on a lot of boards and there is a way of stripping this layer off.??
But some sites say it cant be done, some say there is no gold .....im so confused.
Also what is the best chemical to remove gold from a populated board without removing the solder??

AARRRGGGHHH.....too much info.....
Why cant someone do an idiots guide lol.

Basically i have some boards with gold on them that i think may have gold under a green/blue layer, but they also have a lot of solder etc on them.

Someone please help a poor confused idiot. lol


Oh another question, if i put the boards in a solution that dissolves solder as well as the gold, will this affect the recovery in any way? (will i get 12K gold instead of 24K??)


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 10, 2014)

RE8ELD0G,

Welcome to the forum! You have many questions, and you'll come up with many more as you study. They have all been asked and answered many times before, so if you're willing to spend the time, you'll be able to find the answers by reading through previous posts and using the search functions.

There may be gold under the coating you're talking about, but you'll only find it on a few boards, not a lot of them. You can search for removing solder mask or conformal coating. 

There is no best chemical to remove gold from a populated board without removing the solder.

There is no idiots guide to these processes because all the chemicals and processes are dangerous and potentially deadly. 

You can check your boards by carefully scraping a bit of the coating away from some of the traces on the board. If it's gold in color under the coating, you may be in luck. If it just looks like copper, it probably is. Many of the coatings make the copper traces look gold.



RE8ELD0G said:


> Oh another question, if i put the boards in a solution that dissolves solder as well as the gold, will this affect the recovery in any way? (will i get 12K gold instead of 24K??)


No, it just doesn't work that way.

Here are some links to get you going in the right direction. The first rule is to be safe in everything you do. Before you jump into any of the processes you see discussed here, be sure you understand the potential hazards and do everything you can to minimize the risks. Read EVERYTHING in the Safety section of the forum, especially the Dealing with Waste topic. No amount of precious metal is worth jeopardizing your health or the health of those around you. 

I strongly encourage all new members to follow the Guided Tour created by LazerSteve. It will provide an introduction to the forum and numerous valuable links including the General Reactions List. Be sure to follow the link to his web site as he has many outstanding videos, a collection of great reference documents, and he sells a lot of the supplies needed to get started including detailed instructional DVDs. Samuel-a also has a lot of videos, guides and tutorials at his web site Gold-N-Scrap.

Download C. M. Hoke's book. You'll find links to both screen readable and printer friendly versions in my signature line below. You'll see her book mentioned repeatedly here on the forum for good reason. It is probably the best book ever written for the beginner who wants to learn refining. It is written in layman's terms and will provide a solid foundation that will help you understand everything you read here on the forum. You'll also find a tremendous amount of information in the two Forum Handbooks compiled by aflacglobal, Forum Handbook Vol 1 and Forum Handbook Vol 2.

bmgold2 has also been putting together a useful set of links for beginners. You'll find a few links there that are duplicates of the ones I'm providing, but he has also taken the time to link to many other very good threads on specific topics of interest. His thread is here: New Member Answers.

Once you understand the basics you can start to try some small scale experiments. If there's something you don't understand or you get stuck, there will be someone here to help you.

Best of luck,
Dave


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## Geo (Aug 10, 2014)

Shakespeare gives this formula,

"Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and howlet's wing,--
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble."

Check out the guided tour here : http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=796

Read this section before you ask questions about refining.


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## Shark (Aug 10, 2014)

This is *the* guide. Start reading, as Geo posted. This idiot has got started pretty good from the information found here and the more I catch on to refining and recovery, the more I want to know. Don't be overwhelmed by all the info here, just read until it makes sense. Then read it again, after it makes some sense. Then if you have some spare time, read it all again. By the time you get all that done you should have a decent pile of material to work with, and some understanding of how to get to the gold in it. I still have a long way to go yet, but I am getting there. 

Good Luck.


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 11, 2014)

Thanks for the links and helpful suggestions.
I have already ready Hokes book (mostly)........its a bit confusing for a noob to get to grips with.
I also found 2x PDFs on a post here (gold refining forum handbooks vol 1 + 2) and have downloaded them for further reading.

I will now sit and read through the links and posts you suggested.
Be prepared for lots more questions lol.

Oh and dont worry about safety, im not going to be buying anything acid wise until i have enough knowledge to feel safe doing this in my shed and garden.

Plus i need to save up enough raw materials too.

Thanks again guys.


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## Harold_V (Aug 11, 2014)

RE8ELD0G said:


> Thanks for the links and helpful suggestions.
> I have already ready Hokes book (mostly)........its a bit confusing for a noob to get to grips with.


If you find the book confusing, imagine how you'll find the procedures you'll use to extract and purify gold. 

When the book starts making sense, you're going to be well on your way to understanding the things that you need to know to refine without issues. Until such time, keep reading, especially Hoke's book. Read it until it makes sense, and you understand the things she teaches. While she never addresses escrap (there was no such waste material in her day), the things you'll learn from her book are the very things that you need to understand all of the procedures. When you understand the basics, they apply across the board. She teaches the basics. 

Harold


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 11, 2014)

Wow....this is quite confusing due to the fact there is more than 1 way to do it, and different people saying there way is best.
So let me have a theoretical try at refining my boards in a step by step fashion.
You guys can comment on where im going wrong or any bad ideas in this plan.

1.) Depopulate the boards as far as possible by hand, clipping off the gold plated finger and all the plated connector pins and saving MCC's, Tantalum capicators, and the IC chips for later refining. Also test scrape to see if there is gold under the mask.
??? is there any use to saving other items i have not mentioned??

2.) Use a straight HCl to remove the solder and tins etc from the boards. Rinse well a few times. (Test for any gold in solution results should be Neg)

3.) Using Sodium hydroxide to remove the solder mask (if applicable) rinse well again. (Test for any gold in solution results should be Neg)

4.) Place boards in glass container and add correct 4:3 ratio of HCl and Peroxide to remove gold foils. (Peroxide added in parts so not to use more than needed.)

5.) When done remove and rinse off the boards and check that all gold is removed, leave to dry completely in a strainer for shaking later.

6.) Filter off the gold foils from the AP solution (Solution can be re-energized for further uses)

7.) Wash foils to completely remove all AP solution and leave to dry. Weigh dry foils for SMB amount later

8.) Add gold foils to HCl by volume?? (need to find correct ratio as it differs between people.) 
gently warm but not boiling and start adding Nitric acid in small 2-3 ml increments only adding more when/if the reaction stops.
Leave to cool and settle overnight. (Test for gold - should be Positive)

9.) Add Urea to neutralize the acid, add in small amounts until it stops fizzing.

10.) Add correct amount of SMB depending on earlier weigh of dry foils.
leave to settle out the precipitate overnight.
Test solution for any gold remaining in it. (should be Neg)

11.) Filter off solution try not to disturb the gold powder on the bottom. 

12.) Wash the powder 2-3 times with water and then empty into filter paper.
Remove filter paper containing gold powder and leave to dry.
This powder can be refined again in a clean solution of AR to distill the gold further.
After drying it is ready for melting.


SOOOOO....what do you guys think, am i correct in the procedure and amounts of acids etc??

Please comment all help in this stage is critical for me to get this right.

Thanks


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 11, 2014)

RE8ELD0G said:


> Wow....this is quite confusing due to the fact there is more than 1 way to do it, and different people saying there way is best.
> [SNIP]
> Please comment all help in this stage is critical for me to get this right.
> 
> Thanks


My comment is that it's going to take more than a day to absorb all the information on the forum. SLOOOOWWWWWW DOWN. You're not ready to process anything yet, or think you're ready to lay out a comprehensive process.

As examples, you don't need that much peroxide to start your AP (it would likely dissolve gold), you do not use urea in refining (it does NOT neutralize nitric acid), you do not pour precipitated gold into filter paper (it just causes losses). Those aren't the only problems I see, just the most obvious.

Take your time. 

Dave


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## Harold_V (Aug 11, 2014)

Look at the process of recovering and refining gold as being akin to playing the piano. * Don't schedule your recital until you know how to play.* 

One of the problems we face (it used to be daily) is individuals diving in when they don't know how to swim. There's no end to the questions they ask, yet the answers have little value to them because they don't understand the basics. Each answer simply lead to more questions, and the individual in question learned nothing. 

Armed with that thought, understand that if you jump in prematurely, you're going to repeat that process, and that's going to result in you getting little help from those who know and understand. All of us expect you to do your homework, to prepare yourself by learning the basics, so information tendered makes sense. 

Do not persist by asking questions----that will just get you banned. All of us realize that's not what you want to hear, but until you understand the procedures, answers given aren't really going to help you. *What will help you is learning the basics. * It's all up to you----reading the forum and Hoke's book will get you there. All of this has been discussed numerous times.

Harold


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## g_axelsson (Aug 11, 2014)

Read Hoke, in it you will find acquaintance tests, simple tests that will show you how certain metals reacts with different types of acids, how to test for precious metals, how to fold a filter paper and so on.
Do the tests, you will learn a lot from them and it will help you to handle various situations that will happen when refining.

... and I also think you should slow down a bit. 8) 
I understand you have found a new shiny toy to play with, but this toy could easily bite you hard if you don't know what you are doing, and even some of our more experienced members have had close calls.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3304&p=36238#p36238

Göran


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## Anonymous (Aug 11, 2014)

I completely agree with Goran, Harold, and the others here. Nail the basics 100% and you can escalate from there a thousandfold.

But make sure you nail the basics!!!!!!!

Jon


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## 4metals (Aug 11, 2014)

> Wow....this is quite confusing due to the fact there is more than 1 way to do it, and different people saying there way is best.



There is more than one right way to do a lot of things you will encounter in refining. That makes it even more important to understand the basics. Understand testing, identifying metals in alloys as well as metals in solution. Get a good basic understanding of the reactions you will be seeing and you will be able to rule out a lot of uncertainties down the line. 

Plus, whenever you are processing a new material, run a small test lot. This is something I do every time with a new material or alloy and I've been doing it this way for 40 years and I still don't consider it a waste of time, I consider it time well spent.


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## galenrog (Aug 11, 2014)

A few words regarding Hoke. Refining Precious Metal Wastes was first published in 1940. Taking this in mind, you may note that there are terms used then that are somewhat different today. This can be a bit confusing to some. Should this happen to you, as it frequently did (and still does) to me, just use the search function on this forum and you should find an explanation that will better aid your understanding her text.


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 12, 2014)

Just to be clear.
This is not my first day looking into this.
I have been on YouTube this forum and other forums for overthings time and againeks now reading and learing all I can.
I have 3 different books so far and have been reading them too.
I know im nowehere near ready to try this but I thought that showing you guys I had beed studying this for a while and not just coming on here asking you to teach me would result in some helpful advice.
Not just everyone saying I need to read more. 
Its all the reading that has me confused as there is about 5 different ways with lots of different ideas on how to do it.
So is it too much to ask to have some decent constructive criticism on my plan outlined. Maybe telling me where im wrong as so far what I have written above is a mix of the best bits that i have reasearched.
Details is what it's about and there are not many details out there to find.
its all good getting people to read up before asking questions And i fully understand the manotony of answering the same time


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 12, 2014)

I fully understand the monotony of answering the same questions time and again.
I have been a member of many forums for long time and it gets very boring answering " whats the best kit or where can I buy it".
Im only wanting some help clarifying what I have already reasearched.

sorry for the dodgy post between this but im on my phone and it does not like long messages.

thanks


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 12, 2014)

You guys might understand where im coming from if yiu did a little reasearch yourselves. 
Try and forget what you know them read Hokes and the other forum books while reading this and other forums and watching YouTube.
you will then see what im trying to say.
I cannot learn the basics as there are too many ways to do this outlined. 
What I need is help to get away from the dangerous and bad ideas out there.

eg many places say to use Urea to neutralise the acid before adding the sodium Metabisulphate.
you now say don't. .....as it doesn't work.
Nearly every I have watched shows them putting the gold precipitate through a filter paper. You say dont.

maybe now you can see why this is confusing to a new guy.
I just want to learm the safest amd correct way to do this.

p.s. dont tell me to use the search bar as everyone knows how bad they suck.
especially when you need to sift through 30 odd posts of you folks saying.....use the search bar before you actually find what your looking for.

sorry for the rant but it's frustrating trying to learn something new when the web is full of the bad and dangerous ways of doing it.


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## Geo (Aug 12, 2014)

RE8ELD0G, forget youtube. You may have watched my videos and I'm telling you they are really worthless in the larger scheme of things. Most of what you outline is a fraction of the entire equation. There is no "cookie cutter" formula for turning Escrap or any other type of scrap into a gold bar. Think of all the different types of all the types of scrap that there is in the world. For each type, there may be multiple ways to process it. As long as you have the pure gold in the end and you are relatively unharmed, it doe's not make you a winner. Look at the members list, there are more people who have gotten rich from the lottery in the last few years than there are people on this forum who have gotten wealthy from refining. I could tell you to buy a lottery ticket and forget about refining and you will save money and have a better chance of striking it rich. You would be hard pressed to find some of our members that has even made a profit yet from the money they have put into it. I'm not trying to dissuade you more than giving you a dose of reality. If you are planning on making a quick buck, Micky D's is hiring all the time. No one here is going to lead you into something that can maim or kill you until they are confident you are responsible enough to do what your taught. Of course you can always study and learn about it yourself at your own speed through this vast library of knowledge for as long as you want, but let me warn you, if you keep asking questions (and I'm paraphrasing) "why can't I have what I want, when I want it", instead of doing what was suggested "reading" (quietly) you may not have that choice for long.


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 12, 2014)

Trust me I am reading.
lots.
To put it in an easier sense. Its like trying to learn Japanese from a Russian.
For you folks who have spent years doing this its all second nature but for someone to learn they need to have questions answered. 
Im not asking stupid things im just trying my hardest to find the proper knowledge from all the carp and gumf that is out there. 
I have been on this forum (unregistered) for a couple of weeks and been looking into everything I can find but its hard to do when most posts consist of a question answered several time by.........use the search bar or read more and no actual answer.
Like you guys have already said Hokes book is over 70 yrs old so it's pretty hard going. 
Im going to forget the videos except from members on here and start from scratch.
This is not a buisness propersition for me and I know it will cost more in outlay that what I get from my first few melts.
I understand there is a hell of a lot to learn and its not going to be easy. 
I am not jumping into this as has been suggested I am only trying to glean some knowledge for unanswered questions from the minds of people who have the expertise to help.
To be clear. I have no idea when I will be trying this for the
first time but it will be months yet.
I have no stockpile of materials and am still im the process of collecting things to be broken down.
So to end. I am going to start again.

can anyone here please link me into member YouTube and outside sites. (Search bar sucks) 
I have already been all around Lazersteves site and keep going back but im looking for more..........knowledge is power etc etc

Thanks


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 12, 2014)

Sorry but I do have a legitimate question.
After going back to the Guided tour for my restart the first thing I read on the reactions list is to use Urea to neutralise the excess acid in AR solution. 
??????????????
So is this wrong info. Has it changed but not been done on the post?

see why its hard to learn the basics when even on this forum everything is contradicted.

please dont be so hard on us noobs we just want to learn.

edited to add.
I used a link on frugalrefiners post to download a copy of Hoke to my phone to read again while at the hospital.
This version has been edited and is a lot more easy going and understandable.


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## Harold_V (Aug 12, 2014)

Your confusion is understandable, especially if you've been following youtube, where every moron that has ever lived has published "everything they know" about refining precious metals, with some of them displaying their extensive "knowledge" in under three minutes. 

Urea works--but it is not a requirement. That is a personal choice you may make when you arrive at the point where you start making decisions. Until then, as much as you don't like hearing it, keep reading. Read this forum, and avoid all other sources. Continue to read Hoke's book, as it teaches you the basics that you OBVIOUSLY do not understand. 

Pay strict attention to the idea that you should avoid youtube. You're going to find enough contradictory information here without adding to the problem. The vast majority of these productions show a small portion of the big picture, leading one to believe that refining requires little to no knowledge, and that it happens without effort. Lose that idea or you will never achieve your goal. (Proper) refining demands that you know and understand far more than these dudes show.

There is usually ONE best way to process almost any precious metal. The problem is, it's not always at one's disposal, for reasons often beyond one's control. Keeping that in mind, you're going to find several conflicting reports, each of which is most likely viable for the conditions available for each respondent. When you understand enough about the processes, you'll be able to distinguish that which is useful for you as opposed to that which is not. That's all a part of gaining the basics. 

I understand your frustration. You think you've done your homework, and now you want the reward. 

You haven't. 

If you had, you wouldn't be asking these questions, as you'd have the understanding I keep talking about. You will NOT gain the necessary knowledge by asking questions, in part because many of the answers you're going to receive won't make any sense to you BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE BASICS. 

Avoid reading anywhere but here. If you find contradicting processes, read until you understand why. There's usually a reason. Those are the things you MUST know in order to be able to function in the lab. Be patient. You will not be refining in a few days. Maybe not in a few weeks. Some folks have studied for more than a year to gain enough knowledge and confidence to produce their first button. 

Do not persist in your demands. What you're doing is asking readers to endorse your plan, as if you know what you're doing. I would not want to be responsible for that ---as you can make mistakes along the way that can be lethal. Who in their right mind wants to be responsible for that? Beyond that, if you continue the course, it will lead to your being banned. That I guarantee, considering I'm the guy who will ban you. 

Keep reading. When you know enough to process, you won't be asking these questions. 

You are not "special". We get people like you every day, each of which wants to run when they can't yet walk. That's not how we work. 

Harold


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 12, 2014)

Ok point taken.


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## butcher (Aug 12, 2014)

RE8ELD0G,
Learning the art and skills of recovery and refining of precious metals is not easy, it is a science that will take time to learn.
Like learning to be an electronic technician, a computer programmer, a medical doctor, a good mechanic, a scientist, or many of the other arts or skills, it does take time and a lot of study...

You could not learn to do heart surgery, from watching a video, or seeing it done on a tv show, or you can not learn how to do heart surgery from asking your doctor to tell you how in a forum, or by giving you step by step instructions.

You can learn the art and skills of recovering precious metals, as well as the science of this art, it will be a slow process in the beginning, like other skills you will need to learn the language, the basic principles, and learn a little at a time, as you learn you will use what you learn to build on those skills and knowledge, making the learning of this easier as you go, like many other fields of work there is so much to this you can not learn everything there is to know about it, you can spend several lifetimes learning electronics and never even touch half of what can be learned in that field of work, it is the same with the science of recovery and refining of precious metals, this does not mean that you cannot learn to build a working radio, or refine a button of gold, after several months, or years of study, but that the study is something that can hold your interest, and you can always work to gain more skill and understanding of that science, as long as you work in that field.

Hokes book is simple, it is not really outdated (a few details may be), the principles and the chemistry of the basic principle of recovery and refining can be learned from the book, they will not be obvious to you when you read the book, but soon you will be able to see the overall picture, the forum is not easy to follow, it will be very confusing listening to everyone talk here, but as you study you will be able to understand more of the language, and the reasoning, and understand the different methods...

Forget about learning this in a few weeks months or even years, forget about trying to get gold for now, plan on learning an art and skill that can take several lifetimes to learn. 
Begin with the basic principles, and simple processes, and work your way up building the knowledge and skills, as you go.

Start with safety, Hokes book, and maybe a simple process like recovering gold from memory fingers, relax and take your time, and enjoy learning, follow your interest in this art and science.

The guide to the forum (in the general chat section) is also a good place to begin learning, follow the links there.

Welcome to the forum, you have a bunch of great people to learn this skill with, who will help you along the journey.


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 12, 2014)

RE8ELDOG,

I'm glad you're finding my version of Hoke's book helpful. I really do understand your confusion. You've read that you use urea to neutralize nitric and I've told you not to. You've read in Hoke's book to filter your gold, and I've told you not to. That's why I wrote the introduction to the book. Much has changed since it was written, and there have been some improvements along the way.

This forum is no different. Although it's not as old as the book, the level of knowledge has improved since the early days. Just as there is a bit of misinformation in Hoke's book, you'll find a bit on this forum as well. 

Use this forum as you would use the internet for any research project. If you do a Google search on the internet, you don't necessarily want to believe the first link you visit. It might be right. It might be wrong. If you find one post suggesting something, look for other posts that either support or contradict it. Eventually, you'll find a majority of posts that will agree.

As you've found, there are many ways to do things. Most of them work, but some are better than others, especially for beginners. You said "So is it too much to ask to have some decent constructive criticism on my plan outlined. Maybe telling me where im wrong as so far what I have written above is a mix of the best bits that i have reasearched." I tried to do that when I wrote "As examples, you don't need that much peroxide to start your AP (it would likely dissolve gold), you do not use urea in refining (it does NOT neutralize nitric acid), you do not pour precipitated gold into filter paper (it just causes losses)."

You mentioned that you've been here reading unregistered for a couple of weeks. That's good, but it took me a year and a half to read through the whole forum. That may seem extreme, but I have learned new things in every category of the forum. I started out much as you probably have. When I found this forum, I bounced around it for a little while, reading a few threads here, a few there. I kept reading the same thing "That has been discussed many times on the forum." Frustrating indeed. But I realized that if it had been discussed many times, I just needed to find those threads. When the forum was new, every question was new, so they were discussed extensively. My suggestion is to follow the path I and many other members did. Choose a category of the forum and start with the oldest threads. Then read your way to the current posts. It will take a lot of time and effort, but like it or not, that's how this forum operates.

I really do wish you luck. I've devoted a fair amount of time trying to help others to succeed, and I'll try to help you as well, but you have to think in terms of months and years instead of weeks. Keep following the links I and others have provided and it will all start to make more sense.

Dave


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## RE8ELD0G (Aug 13, 2014)

I do understand this will not be a fast learning process and i already see for myself it takes a lot of understanding the very basics before i can understand more.
I still need to Google the acronyms and chemical elements like HCl etc to see what it means.
I have decided to try a different approach to my original.
I am going to keep going over Hokes and the forum + PDF's until i really can read it properly and understand all it says.
Im also going to concentrate on one area at a time.
Starting with Depopulating the boards with HCl. I will learn as much as i can so once i have a pile of boards built up i can then de-pop them ready for the next thing i will need to learn. - removing the solder mask.
Then onto removing the gold foils and so on.
That way i dont have to have all the knowledge at once and i can do it in stages.

The reason i got a bit ancy was lack of sleep.....sorry was having a few bad days and i can only offer my apologies if i offended or upset anyone.

I am also going to try some of the basic tests etc from Hokes book, if nothing else they sound like fun.


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## MarcoP (Aug 13, 2014)

Hi, it all started on YouTube too where everything looked really easy.
Got some concrete cleaner, hydrogen peroxide, mix them and soack in 151 phone sim cards and roughly 340gr of well trimmed gold fingers from RAM, PCI, VGA etc cards.

Stir every now and then and wait few days to get rich.

When all was stripped I filtered the solution and dumped a very diluted acid down the drain.
Going back to my gold foils... very little was left with some black powder which I kept anyway.
I've got very discouraged by seeing how little gold was left and sure that I wasn't doing anything wrong by discharging a very diluted acid.

I soon started questioning my self and thanks to everyone in here I've discovered ALL my mistakes and still learning.
I soon understood heavy fumes, acids and losses of values.

YouTube make it easy, what a big mistake, but I still use it for visual reference only. Colours, methods, labware etc etc.

As a sysadmin and programmer I would have expected more from my self but I soon put my self in the right track. As I want to reduce IT work for personal reasons and there is a lack refiners in my area and even the nearest aren't honest I might give all this a try but in a proper way as to protect my self and everyone else from my doings, recycle gases and solids, discharge nothing.

End of the story, as everyone keep saying in here: understanding the basics is the only available key to open yourself to this fascinating world, believe it or not, there is only one key, no shortcuts.

Cheers


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