# heres what i got any ideas



## bomer (Sep 15, 2013)

Here's what I have please help


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## jeneje (Sep 15, 2013)

I give up...what is it :mrgreen: 
Ken


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## Pantherlikher (Sep 15, 2013)

Now that's going to be 1 really tough question to answer...
Can we buy a vowel?

B.S.
...Sorry but my psycotic mind cannot read through the depths of the emptyness in your question...


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## pattt (Sep 15, 2013)

Hi,
seems you have nothing..., did you do a stannous test on it? :mrgreen: 

Pat.


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## jimdoc (Sep 15, 2013)

Too much 420?


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## patnor1011 (Sep 15, 2013)

He own what most of us own in these days.... Next to nothing.
I have an idea - do not give up, work hard, there may come that day when all your dreams come true...


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## jeneje (Sep 15, 2013)

Pantherlikher said:


> Now that's going to be 1 really tough question to answer...
> Can we buy a vowel?
> 
> B.S.
> ...Sorry but my psycotic mind cannot read through the depths of the emptyness in your question...


I will take an "O" for two hundred.. :mrgreen: 
Ken


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## JHS (Sep 15, 2013)

I think the question is too complex.
use the search


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## bomer (Sep 15, 2013)

heres my pic hopefully


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## jeneje (Sep 15, 2013)

That would look like gold foils to me. Wash in HCL, Rinse well, Process with HCL/CL to refine. Then drop with SMB or Ferrous sulfate.
Ken

edited; hope you did not do that in your house. Do all recovery and processing outside.


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## bomer (Sep 15, 2013)

i did this outside but didnt want it to blow away,,so i can wash with hcl,to hcl runs clear is that correct . then process with hcl and clorox outside of course, how do i know how much smb .test with stannous i assume or weigh the flake


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## jeneje (Sep 15, 2013)

bomer420 said:


> i did this outside but didnt want it to blow away,,so i can wash with hcl,to hcl runs clear is that correct . then process with hcl and clorox outside of course, how do i know how much smb .test with stannous i assume or weigh the flake


Glad to here you did it outside. Put enough HCL to cover the foils, let it set overnight, pour off the HCL and rinse well with H2O (water) until no color change. Cover the foils again with HCL and add Clorox one capful at a time until all foils are dissolved. Do this outside, the solution will put off chlorine gas, DO NOT BREATH this. The foils will dissolve making gold chloride. 

Once all the foils are dissolved let the solution set for 24hours, this will allow the chlorine to dissipate from the gold chloride. Filter the solution and add SMB to drop the gold. Test with stannous chloride, once your tests are free of purple color you have dropped all the gold.

Hope this helps you
Good luck and please post a pic of your gold.
Ken

edited for spelling


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## Pantherlikher (Sep 15, 2013)

Looks like a nice pile there.

Puzzle solved with a few washes, dissolve in HCL+Bleach, drop with...Start with 1 gram SMB, stirr and let sit for up to 3 days. Allows for full drop unless you used to much bleach as I just did.
3 grams and 2 weeks later and now I'm heating to evaporate down to rid of all free Chlorine. Can you say...patience please?

B.S.

O yeh... READ alot more so you fully understand including what to do with the spent liquids. Safety always.


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## Smack (Sep 15, 2013)

How come this new guy gets help and others are told to read? Just a bit inconsistent, that's the observation.


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## rusty (Sep 15, 2013)

Smack said:


> How come this new guy gets help and others are told to read? Just a bit inconsistent, that's the observation.



420 friendly.


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## Harold_V (Sep 16, 2013)

Smack said:


> How come this new guy gets help and others are told to read? Just a bit inconsistent, that's the observation.


That's a good and valid question, and deserves a meaningful answer. Wish I had one for you. 

Bomer420, you were advised at the outset that your board presence was not a good idea. I agree. It's not. I've already noted the distraction. *I want it changed, and as quickly as it can be done, so it no longer makes reference to marijuana*. In order for that to happen, you're going to have to send Noxx a PM requesting him to change your name on the board. Do it. I am dead serious. If the name is not changed in a reasonable period of time, you will be banned from the board. We do NOT promote illegal activities here, nor do we wish to be looked upon with suspicion. We do NOT wave the red flag in the face of the bull here. Do we understand one another? 

Readers, in order for my mandate, for new readers to study, to be successful, I fully expect that you've going to support us in this matter. When you see a guy asking questions that should be common knowledge, your advice to them is to read, to research, to gain the basic knowledge that is required of all who hope to refine. To ask such a simple question as has been asked in this thread is proof positive that the individual in question has done little to help himself. I want that to come to an end. 

Bomer---start reading, and don't stop until you have a firm understanding. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Sep 16, 2013)

rusty said:


> Smack said:
> 
> 
> > How come this new guy gets help and others are told to read? Just a bit inconsistent, that's the observation.
> ...


It sure as hell could be interpreted that way, couldn't it?

It is for that reason that his name will be changed, or he's gone. We do NOT promote illegal activities on this board. 

Harold


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## bomer (Sep 16, 2013)

didnt see this nonsense till now i sent noxx a email and told him to change it to bomer ,,,Nothing illegal here ,I have a medicinal prescription from a Dr. , by that abreviation I mean so you understand it a Medical Doctor licensed by the State of California, so if its illlegal for some for me its not . Just the same way its illegal for me to take a pain pill thats prescribed for someone else...I got a prescription


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## Harold_V (Sep 16, 2013)

Lets get something straight. For starters, it's not nonsense. Whether you have a prescription or not, that's no reason for you to wear your use of marijuana as a badge of honor. If you have medical needs, I'm happy you're getting the help you need, but the average guy who reads your comments may or may not understand that you may be the exception to the rule. We don't want the use of marijuana promoted on this board, not for any reason, no more than we'd want you to promote your particular religious convictions. 

We try to present a professional appearance on this board. What we don't want is for it to get dumbed down to the point where worthy people who can make a difference in the lives of others start abandoning the board. For that reason, we run a taught ship. We don't allow much nonsense, and we certainly don't tolerate a reader who gets mouthy. *Comply, with an understanding, or you and I aren't going to get along.* Whether that suits you, or not, I don't care. I have a job to do in running this board (with help from others, I must add), and I do it. One person, more or less, makes no difference to us. We want readers who cooperate and don't make waves. You can be one of them and survive, or not. The choice is yours. 

None of this is open to debate. We have rules here that _*will*_ be upheld. 

Harold


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## Geo (Sep 16, 2013)

perhaps you should add a global post about acceptable name context. on the web, people try to skate around the edges as much as possible. perhaps to include certain exclusions such as religion, sexual innuendo, illegal activities, inflammatory rhetoric and so on.


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## jeneje (Sep 16, 2013)

This is been brothing me all day since I read this post. So I am going to comment on the name thing here. We are making this member change his username because of (possible drug related title or use) I hate to point this out but some of us seem to forget the 60's 70's although we lived it. The street name for Heroin and speed was "SMACK" I don't mean to split hairs here but what is good for one should be applied to all.

Ken


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## Geo (Sep 16, 2013)

some words have multiple meanings and uses. where one word may have several meanings that are benign and one that is suspect, there are those that leave nothing other than the true meaning. take the two in question "smack" and "420" for example. smack can be smack dab in the middle of the argument and might get a smack up side the head for it but 420 leaves no doubt as to what its referring to.


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## jeneje (Sep 16, 2013)

Geo said:


> some words have multiple meanings and uses. where one word may have several meanings that are benign and one that is suspect, there are those that leave nothing other than the true meaning. take the two in question "smack" and "420" for example. smack can be smack dab in the middle of the argument and might get a smack up side the head for it but 420 leaves no doubt as to what its referring to.


Geo, I am of the age 52, have been in the construction industry all my life. Been around more druggies then most, this is the first time I have ever heard of three numbers meaning drugs. Sorry but that dog don't hunt. 

Do the members of this board not see what is going on here, This board in my opinion has moved from helping people to telling long term members how they should post and to whom they are able to help. When will we go back to what this board was setup for, helping new members.

So they ask the same questions that has been answered, if someone does not want to post don't, there are others who can and want too. They should not be punished for wanting to help those in need. 

I personally know several members who used to come here and don't anymore. There are members who used to post all the time and now you very rarely see them here anymore. 

This is a great place to learn but setting alternative to who can get help and those who can't is wrong. I do not see any place to signup for a pay membership here, so who ever joins should be treated the same way. Be able to ask the simple question, get an answer and move on to bettering themselves. 

Just my thoughts,

Smack I was not picking on you personally but only trying to make a point.

Ken


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## silversaddle1 (Sep 16, 2013)

I would point out that for him, as well as people in Colorado and other locals, it's not illegal. For me, I could care less if he has "420" in his name. Big deal. And I see Harold's point in wanting to impose the rules of the board. But at what point do the rules become oppresive enough to single out some users that in their location, what they do is legal for them, but not for us?

It's a fine line we must walk.


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## Smack (Sep 16, 2013)

No worries from me Ken we're all good. Your one of the few that doesn't know what that number means. It doesn't literally mean the drug but instead is used to describe a type of break one might take in the course of a day, a smoke break if you know what I mean. I have some friends that put in for April 20th every year if it's on a week day and you might guess what they do that day and can you imagine what it might be like when 4:20pm rolls around on 4/20? lol Never thought about my name standing for a drug, forgot about that mixture of drugs being referred to as smack. Didn't Hitler give smack to some of his soldiers? It's always been a gaming name for me, guys always said I was putting the smack down on people so I ran with it. If you guys want me to change my name I have no problem doing so.

Didn't mean to get anyone's feathers out of whack, just made the observation and thought I would share it and I even cut it short. I left out adding that I've noticed the band wagon effect from the members here, meaning that if someone responds to a noob question in a positive and helpful way and even explain what to do, others seem to follow suit and the same if someone tells the person that they need to download Hoke's book and read, read, read and use the search feature, it's all here, and others chime in along those lines. Not being disrespectful to the OP either, at least that wasn't my intent. I'm all for consistency, but also believe each individual here has the right to decide weather or not they want to help and in what way, I just don't think it's fair to all those who have been told to read or we're not here to hold your hand. That's bouncing along the lines of Hypocrisy.

Regards,

Antonio (possible new name?)


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## jeneje (Sep 16, 2013)

Smack said:


> No worries from me Ken we're all good. Your one of the few that doesn't know what that number means. It doesn't literally mean the drug but instead is used to describe a type of break one might take in the course of a day, a smoke break if you know what I mean. I have some friends that put in for April 20th every year if it's on a week day and you might guess what they do that day and can you imagine what it might be like when 4:20pm rolls around on 4/20? lol Never thought about my name standing for a drug, forgot about that mixture of drugs being referred to as smack. Didn't Hitler give smack to some of his soldiers? It's always been a gaming name for me, guys always said I was putting the smack down on people so I ran with it. If you guys want me to change my name I have no problem doing so.
> 
> Didn't mean to get anyone's feathers out of whack, just made the observation and thought I would share it and I even cut it short. I left out adding that I've noticed the band wagon effect from the members here, meaning that if someone responds to a noob question in a positive and helpful way and even explain what to do, others seem to follow suit and the same if someone tells the person that they need to download Hoke's book and read, read, read and use the search feature, it's all here, and others chime in along those lines. Not being disrespectful to the OP either, at least that wasn't my intent. I'm all for consistency, but also believe each individual here has the right to decide weather or not they want to help and in what way, I just don't think it's fair to all those who have been told to read or we're not here to hold your hand. That's bouncing along the lines of Hypocrisy.
> 
> ...


Thank you smack for explaining that, I truly did not know. No I do not think you need to change your name nor do I think anybody else should either. Our names refect who we are, mine stands for my kids initials I have had it ever since the internet was born. I do agree that the newbes should read and research, but as we all know the fever gets in between common sense and dollars signs. What concerns me is that they will try to refine no matter what we tell them to read and end up getting hurt or worse kill them selfs. So to answer a simple question for them to help put them on the right path I see nothing wrong with that. Some of the members here don't have a lot of time and I respect that...but there are some of us who enjoys giving sound advice and it also helps us to learn.

Smack I meant no disrespect to and I hope there are no hard feeling.

Your online friend
Ken


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## Geo (Sep 16, 2013)

honestly, theres been more than a few new members ive spoken with by PM because they were afraid to ask questions on the open forum. i feel that no one should be afraid to ask questions. its the attitude after being told to do the research thats the problem (or thats how i feel about it). answering a question with a link to the appropriate post would be very helpful than an outright lack of support. if anyone comes to me on the forum or by PM, i will do my best to lead them in the right direction. sometimes its beyond my capabilities to give an accurate answer and then ill defer to which ever member i feel can help the best. if Harold wants new members pointed in the right direction to the right material pertaining to their continued education, thats what im going to do.


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## jeneje (Sep 16, 2013)

Geo said:


> honestly, theres been more than a few new members ive spoken with by PM because they were afraid to ask questions on the open forum. i feel that no one should be afraid to ask questions. its the attitude after being told to do the research thats the problem (or thats how i feel about it). answering a question with a link to the appropriate post would be very helpful than an outright lack of support. if anyone comes to me on the forum or by PM, i will do my best to lead them in the right direction. sometimes its beyond my capabilities to give an accurate answer and then ill defer to which ever member i feel can help the best. if Harold wants new members pointed in the right direction to the right material pertaining to their continued education, thats what im going to do.


Geo, you have a point here. You, myself and others here have been here long enough to use the search feature to get most of the information we are seeking. I have yet to run across a detailed process from start to finish. The posts are fragmented at the least, thus making a newbe confused. We send them to the guilded tour link, great information there, but it does not give them the basic start to recovering and processing finger foils or basic silver refinement. Yes you can do a search for fingers foils and look how many results you get. 

It might be a great help if someone would prepare a tutorial for the basic processes and then we all could point them there. This would answer there questions, then if they are to lazy to read it - it there on fault, but to shut them down right from the start is wrong. You are right no one should be afraid to ask questions, I have always been told the only stupid question is the one not asked.
Ken


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## jimdoc (Sep 16, 2013)

The 420 in his name is only part of the problem. What exactly is "Bomer" supposed to mean?
Is it missing another letter "B"? It just comes across as a trouble maker name.

The main problem is his asking questions that are obvious that he hasn't studied the forum at all, and seems to want to be spoon fed answers. That added in with his choice of a name for a forum like this gave me the impression that he wouldn't last long here. If he straightens out and asks some of his questions in the search box, well then he could prove me wrong.

Jim


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## jeneje (Sep 16, 2013)

jimdoc said:


> The 420 in his name is only part of the problem. What exactly is "Bomer" supposed to mean?
> Is it missing another letter "B"? It just comes across as a trouble maker name.
> 
> The main problem is his asking questions that are obvious that he hasn't studied the forum at all, and seems to want to be spoon fed answers. That added in with his choice of a name for a forum like this gave me the impression that he wouldn't last long here. If he straightens out and asks some of his questions in the search box, well then he could prove me wrong.
> ...


Jim,
Did you look at the pics he posted, here is what I seen - I seen a new member that used AP to remove foils from CPU pins filtered them and was ready to move onto the next stage. He asked a question? What Next. A member in need of advice...that is what I seen.
Ken


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## jimdoc (Sep 16, 2013)

I saw someone who jumped into processing without knowing all the steps.
Exactly what a new member shouldn't do. 

Don't start a process unless you know all the steps, and more importantly all the safety concerns.

Jim


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## rusty (Sep 16, 2013)

jeneje said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> > The 420 in his name is only part of the problem. What exactly is "Bomer" supposed to mean?
> ...




What I saw was evidence of processing those foils indoors, take a close look at the counter ( desk ) top you'll notice bits of solder mask laying all over the place. Then he'll probably put those bowels back into the kitchen.


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## jeneje (Sep 16, 2013)

This is going nowhere, guys you see this glass as haft empty, I see as half full. I voiced my views on the topic. I am just sorry that we as a online community can not come together to help all members who come here. Some of the things I have read and posts I have seen as of late is disturbing.

Ken


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## JHS (Sep 16, 2013)

I for one researched a question for two months without a satisfactory result.this entitlement thing came up.that's when i said i could not find the answer,but that was the reason i would not post it.Harold said if you are truely stuck then ask,but beware that it will soon be known that if you did not do your homework,it would betray you.i sent the question to Harold,and said if he thought it was not valid,ban me there and then, if i could not get help then why be here,so either way i would move forward.the question was deemed valid,i posted it.i was then accused of lieing about results because the process could not work and of practicing whitch craft.only after a few experts chimed in and supported my process was i redemed.after the accusations,i was less than content with my decision to ask anything.
i do thank the few that resolved the problem and supported my process,and pm'ed them with thanks,but i am not sure the attack on my character was worth it.there was 552 lbs of material that has been consistantly been yielding 13.5 oz of pd.per pound
we are not talking about a small amount,do the math at todays price.but the point is i left it sit for 2 months,instead of asking.
1 why did i feel that way about asking?=entitlement
2 why did i have to leave that amount of money sitting?=ban
3 when have you been a member long enough to ask?=when you don't have to ask anymore


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## chlaurite (Sep 16, 2013)

This seems to have become something of a contentious issue lately - Help newbies, or answer everything with "Hoke!".

I have a suggestion for a compromise, if the resident deities would like to find some workable middle ground...

How about a "newbie" section under "The Basics", where those not already jaded by our mutual interest can answer the same questions over and over and over until they get sick of it, and the pros amongst us can save their efforts for those who have clearly moved beyond the level of simply admonishing them to read? Perhaps the forum software can even limit posting to that one subboard for the first month or so of someone's membership here, with read-only to the rest until a mod or admin approves them for more? (And if it doesn't, I can add it for you - My way of giving back to the community! 8) )

Honestly, if we now have a direct command to limit our responses to things:
1) Not mentioned in Hoke, and
2) Not answered in some form by an earlier post...

...Then seriously, why does GRF even allow posting at all? That leaves perhaps half a dozen regulars who can now "legally" post here. The rest of us just failed to search for _quite_ the right way that someone once asked that same question about that white/grey/beige/pale/light colored sediment/precipitate/haze/sludge/mud (and yet, they _definitely_ had a purple/violet/fuschia/cerise stannous/tin/tin(II)chloride/SnCl2 test). :lol:


I don't mean to sound line a whiner here - I sincerely appreciate the knowledge contained here, both in previous posts and in the experienced members. But "refiners helping one another" does at least _suggest_ the idea of actual humans asking each other questions, not a static knowledge-base best accessed through Google. Put another way (which I've broached before) - GRF exists as a *forum*, not a *wiki*. If the admins want to turn the site into the latter, we can probably get there more efficiently than by trying to stifle the forum-y aspects of the site. :wink:

And all _that_ said - Lose the 420, *for your own sake*. Legal has nothing to do with it; advertising your status as a stoner (as opposed to merely using it), medical or not, flags you as - To put it "blunt"ly - something of a loser. You'll notice you don't see a lot of people with handles like "glyburide63" or "z0core". That absence has a lesson in it.


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## Palladium (Sep 16, 2013)

Interesting discussion.


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## Harold_V (Sep 17, 2013)

Geo said:


> perhaps you should add a global post about acceptable name context. on the web, people try to skate around the edges as much as possible. perhaps to include certain exclusions such as religion, sexual innuendo, illegal activities, inflammatory rhetoric and so on.


Thanks, Geo. A good and valid suggestion, which I will tend to. I may just parrot your words. Quite well spoken.

Harold


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## AndyWilliams (Sep 17, 2013)

One thing I agree with, in reaching a totally contrary conclusion, is that the processes are fragmented throughout this forum. That this is a fact, I cannot then conclude that the best practice is to support further fragmentation by encouraging newbies to post new threads asking old questions. Perhaps there doesn't have to be any respect towards those who came first, or second even. But then, we are no longer refiners helping refiners. We become refiners helping wannabes. Where is the dedication to becoming a refiner? How is that dedication evidenced? Simply put, someone intent on becoming a refiner doesn't fulfill that intent by registering on this site. There is an investment that MUST be done, above and beyond registration. And that investment begins with the principle of safety. If someone wants to be a refiner, there own safety should be paramount.

The thing about principles is that they are easy to claim, but difficult to adhere to. Really, there are thousands of rationales that scream for a principle to give way ("I need the money" being the most common here). And if a principle were to give way so easily, if it were unable to withstand the rationales that would try to bend it, it wouldn't be worthy of being called a principle. I for one believe that NO ADVICE should be given until someone can post what safety equipment they have in place and where they intend to refine. If you have no space to refine, and no equipment that a refiner would claim, how are you worthy of the help of other refiners? A refiner has the knowledge of how to refine. Part of that knowledge is what is necessary for the refiner's safety. Those go hand in hand as surely as AR requires a certain proportion of HCL and Nitric. 

Not knowing what it takes to be safe when refining should be reason itself for anyone on GRF to refuse to help. Newbies without a place to refine should be told to continue reading until they are ready to refine.


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## Harold_V (Sep 17, 2013)

It's obvious that a few prefer that anyone and everyone can post here--makes no difference if they know anything about refining, or if they have intentions of learning. So long as they can ask of others, they're content. 

Well, I'll give you my slant on that. Do keep in mind, I am not pretending to speak for anyone but myself. 

I'm not willing to spend my time here answering questions that should not be being asked. They shouldn't be being asked, because they are very much a part of the very information that ANYONE who hopes to refine must know.  To me, that's a sure sign that readers are too damned lazy to do anything to improve their lot in life, but hope to capitalize on the hard work and dedication of those who have. 

What readers have been admonished to do is to read---to read to gain a basic understanding of refining, so when they ask questions, they are worthy of being asked--and the answers they receive will make sense. 

The decrease in posts has been very welcome for me. For any moderator to keep track of the insanity that this board has become is virtually impossible. Why try? Seems, at least to me, it's more important that the monkeys can run the zoo than the board fulfills its mission, the one of refiners helping refiners (not refiners helping those who won't try to learn). 

You want a free board, one in which you would see anyone and everyone post questions? You got it. I'm going to keep my mouth closed. Use any language you prefer, discussing topics of your choosing. I'll say nothing. But, when you find this forum no longer fills the need you think it should, do keep in mind, it was you who wanted it a free-for-all. 

Harold


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## RikkiRicardo (Sep 17, 2013)

Mr Harold_V all i have is respect for you and i love the way you are controlling the board
you are doing a great job i agree with everything you are saying and doing 
I'm also sure Noxx will agree with you on this one and all that you have done for the Forum 
again Thanks for all the great work that you have done.

RikkiRicardo


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## chlaurite (Sep 17, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> It's obvious that a few prefer that anyone and everyone can post here--makes no difference if they know anything about refining, or if they have intentions of learning.


I feel comfortable saying we *all* respect you greatly, Harold, and personally, I someday hope to get good enough to make use of even a tiny fragment of your wisdom - And I agree (and I say this without any sarcasm or elitism) that your answering basic process questions clearly _does_ waste your time.

I very much appreciate that, as a seasoned (aka "greybeard" :mrgreen: ) master of the art of my own field (software engineer). I find it tedious to explain to newbie programmers basic syntax of the programming language of the week ("So when do I use = vs == vs === in JavaScript?"), or even "obvious" small algorithms that every compiler should quiz the user on before it allows them to type a single line of code. 8) 

My field even has its own "bible" - K&R's _The C Programming Language_. You can pretty much learn everything you need to know about modern procedural programming languages from it. To this day, I keep a copy on my desk at work, and consult it frequently... And I haven't written a line of actual C (including C++ and C#) in probably half a decade.

But _someone_ needs to help the junior programmers understand pointers, understand bitwise math, understand why working with numbers stored as numbers goes a heck of a lot faster than numbers stored as a string of digits vs when you _should_ store a number as a string of digits. Whenever possible, I should not waste my time providing such trivia - A coder with a two or three years' real-world experience can answer such basic ideas, and the repetition does them good in solidifying their own knowledge; meanwhile, _my_ time serves everyone better if I help those three-year fellows of the craft start to understand how to see the bigger picture, coding to the intended purpose rather than getting bogged down in what sorting algorithm they use ("It crashes a third of the time, but _man_ does that inner loop fly!"


I have to believe the same idea applies here, and indeed, just about everywhere that we have a group of people with a _huge_ difference in skill levels trying to help each other. That doesn't mean you personally should answer every question about "what does this precipitate mean", or even that _anyone_ should respond to crap like "I have a bunch of RAM sticks that I burned and added battery acid to, how do I get the gold out?" :shock: . But gently nudging someone who clearly understands enough to get a bowl of clean foils?

_Some_ middle-ground must exist between letting the monkeys running the zoo, and a lockdown.


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## bomer (Sep 17, 2013)

I messaged Noxx yesterday. I have np with the name change ,I understand to a extent what the admin was trying to say,but I am very thankful that a few members understood what and where I was at with the process.True,I did jump in a little bit fast ,( I found download link to hokes book ,and vol 1 ,I will print them out today need toner) but I am very thankful to the members who took the time and effort to help me and most of all reassure me that I was atleast on the right track. Of course I am not using the dishes I used in the pix ,I actually bought some corninware a few weeks ago ,ill post pix later, I plan on using that to cook food with but I had got to the point where I literally felt frustrated just because I wanted that lil bit of reassurance from someone but better yet from a few of you who I knew by the way you portrayed confidence in your replys that I wasnt being misguided . That actually gave the inspiration and effort to relax sit back ,download the literature i needed ,skim that a bit, organize , clean, label some of the material I had and I now feel more confident and will be able to actually learn and retain alot more info and knowledge and will put forth more effort to do these things because I feel comfortable knowing that even if I were to come to a point where i just cant grasp the correct way to do something,,I will be able to get guidance from proffessionals such as the members who helped me in this forum.Sorry for the run on sentence,but Thank You so Very Much------------I am very appreciative and cant xpress how much gratitude I owe u guys-----Thanks Again-----the name was from a Sony PS3 game I tried to play online game and use B2 Bomber,B52Bomber,Bomber52 but all names were taken and it suggested Bomer420 sounds funny but true. Thanks you guys I messaged Noxx yesterday just told him to change it to bomer ,,thank u fellas


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## Platdigger (Sep 17, 2013)

I second what RikkiRicardo had to say. You are doing just fine Harold.
I would not want to be responsible, or even feel responsible for a board like this.
I can see were a "free for all" would be the end of anything good or worthwhile here.
Thank you again Harold.


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## jeneje (Sep 17, 2013)

No body is asking for a "free for all" what we are saying is no matter who comes here they should recieve the help they are asking for. It's easy for us who know how to refine to sit back and say read, read, and read..but it takes a teacher to give answers and encorgement to those in need.

Ok, setup a section for newbe's "post your questions here, restrick there posting to that forum, it's easy to do. Go into the admin and set the preferences, after say 200 hunderd post give them total access. Guys it not hard to get a handle on this, It takes a little effort on the part of the admin.
Ken


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## Platdigger (Sep 17, 2013)

Why "should" they receive the help they ask for? If I have a question and receive an answer I am greatful. If not, well, it is not like I was entitled to one. Nor would I feel entitled to any help whatsoever for that matter.


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## jeneje (Sep 17, 2013)

Platdigger said:


> Why "should" they receive the help they ask for? If I have a question and receive an answer I am greatful. If not, well, it is not like I was entitled to one. Nor would I feel entitled to any help whatsoever for that matter.


Just because you feel that way, does not mean everybody on this forum feels that way. Then why have a board? If it is not going to benifit all, but just those chosen few. Dont make sence.
Ken


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## maynman1751 (Sep 17, 2013)

Platdigger said:


> I second what RikkiRicardo had to say. You are doing just fine Harold.
> I would not want to be responsible, or even feel responsible for a board like this.
> I can see were a "free for all" would be the end of anything good or worthwhile here.
> Thank you again Harold.



I agree although, will all due respect for our patriarch Harold), I believe that there could be some compromise. If adding a newbee section would satisfy this matter, I would be all for it. Then anyone who has the time and* proper knowledge* could, within limits, help and direct members who are having difficulties. And I don't mean a free lunch. Just assistance to those that have shown a true desire to learn and are willing to do their part.
Harold, I and most other members have the greatest respect and admiration for all that you have given and continue to give to this great forum. *By no means let this discussion influence your presence here.* You have done a amazing job of controlling the riff-raff and removing the less than desirable elements that attempt to disturb this site. Your presence and policing of this forum will always be invaluable and much needed. Thank You for all that you do. John.


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## maynman1751 (Sep 17, 2013)

Maybe this should be moved to Forum Improvements or Debates and Discussion.


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## jimdoc (Sep 17, 2013)

jeneje said:


> If it is not going to benifit all, but just those chosen few. Dont make sence.
> Ken



This forum benefits all. you just have to do some work on your own.
That is how it is, and it makes sense to me.

That "refiners helping refiners" thing isn't a guarantee, 
you don't get your money back if you don't like it.

How many people bail out after getting their hand held and taught by someone after they decide this hobby is too scary for them. Then the "lesson" is here for everyone that comes along afterwards. 

Jim


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## Platdigger (Sep 17, 2013)

Thing is, Harold said on the first page of this thread that: "None of this is open to debate. We have rules here that will be upheld."

perhaps this thread should just be locked.


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## jeneje (Sep 17, 2013)

Platdigger said:


> Thing is, Harold said on the first page of this thread that: "None of this is open to debate. We have rules here that will be upheld."
> 
> perhaps this thread should just be locked.


Why? are not the opions of the members here important, if not, lock it, if they are lets debate it. This type of thread has been coming for over a year now and it seemed no body wanted to get into it. Lets see where it goes, most members here are scared to say anything fearing being "BANED" maybe leaving it open will encourge more members to speak out.
Ken


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## Pantherlikher (Sep 17, 2013)

Very interesting, the ongoing problem of trying to help but also push for more learning.

Harold, I once mentioned you being abrasive. This is most likely from the same newbie asking to be handed everything. I fully understand your stance and hope you do as you do. You keep it real so to speak and keep us all on track. The leader so to speak. Any group of people needs this.

"WE" as a forum. Need to help where help is needed but also require reading and learning on your own. I saw the picture as having nice foils and looking for reassurance that it was done right. Right being a matter of perception. Nice foils but in baking dishes for food use which was questioned. Also the picture was inside at a desk that looks as though it all was processed there and was questioned and answered. Then, 420 in the name was questioned and off we go on the debate over forum policy.

Granted, the name is a reflection of who you are which can be a detriment on the forum and must be addressed. 
Granted, you must and are required to read and learn which is pushed heavily.

I fully understand the gray beards not wanting to answer questions asked thousands of times. Type keywords on LazerSteve's site, this search box is not newbie friendly, you will get tons of answers to your questions which all have helped with but asked time and time again and were well answered.
Now when a newbie asks something, Read, read and more read untill you understand is the answer?... Of course this should be the answer to the "I want it now" newbies. It should also be pushed to anyone asking anything but do it with direction and understanding.

I step up and do my best to answer what I can, get corrected when wrong,thanks again,, and remind to read and learn the full process. This instance I failed but edited my post when I thought of it, as a side note.

This is members helping members. You continue to do your part in keeping us all straight. And let us new members help with what we've learned and continue to "let it sink in" as it were.

The major problem I see with this is the overload of posts to sift through to get to the "learning" part. Panning through all the junk to find the nuggets is difficult. Can we ask of a few to continue to create step by step processes and work on filtering out some of the tons of crap? This would greatly help the forum as an earth mover removeing the top soil. This is where we should be focussing. Not the "squabble debates".

Harold, what you say goes and that is that. I fully trust in your judgement but as anything else will question when needed. 420? Gone...good... It's a 1 meanning thing.

B.S.
...Hopefully together we can make the world a safer and better place...


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## JHS (Sep 17, 2013)

I have an orphin grandson living in our home.He just turned 18.He came home complaining bitterly about his chemestry teachers methods of teaching.
The teacher hands out e packets to the students,as daily assignments.The teacher returns to his desk,turns on his computer and ignores even the simple questions.the entire school year,last year they went to the lab once.
This young man has a genuine desire to learn,and move forward with his education.
Does the teacher ignore student questions because he assumes they don't really want to learn,or they are going to drop out anyway,so why bother.


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## AndyWilliams (Sep 17, 2013)

chlaurite said:


> My field even has its own "bible" - K&R's _The C Programming Language_. You can pretty much learn everything you need to know about modern procedural programming languages from it. To this day, I keep a copy on my desk at work, and consult it frequently... And I haven't written a line of actual C (including C++ and C#) in probably half a decade.
> 
> But _someone_ needs to help the junior programmers understand pointers, understand bitwise math, understand why working with numbers stored as numbers goes a heck of a lot faster than numbers stored as a string of digits vs when you _should_ store a number as a string of digits. Whenever possible, I should not waste my time providing such trivia - A coder with a two or three years' real-world experience can answer such basic ideas, and the repetition does them good in solidifying their own knowledge; meanwhile, _my_ time serves everyone better if I help those three-year fellows of the craft start to understand how to see the bigger picture, coding to the intended purpose rather than getting bogged down in what sorting algorithm they use ("It crashes a third of the time, but _man_ does that inner loop fly!"
> 
> ...



So these programmers, they come to you with a basic level of knowledge in the field? A level of education as to programming? Or do they just walk in and start asking for your advice? I only say that because I've always wanted to learn programming! I don't have any experience, but if you could just help me out here and there, that'd be great! The only thing is, I don't want to be bothered with too much reading. I don't really have the time. I wonder how the programming boards would welcome me, without any knowledge and little desire to read the texts. For sure, their information can be given without any safety precautions. 

Please don't be offended, I only write to highlight the difference between those who come here and those you see in your field. And really, this goes for every field, even construction. Say I want to learn how to wire my house and don't know the first thing about electric. Who is willing to lead me along the way, over the internet? Oh, and by the way, I'm colorblind! So please give me your advice on how to wire my electrical box! Your newbie is unlike a newbie here. Undoubtedly, you guys are teachers in your field, and your experiences are invaluable. But someone wanting to be a programmer and they have no prior education in the field, and they refuse to consult the reading material? Your base level programmer has been prepared for the field. Their knowledge is limited, but they understand the terminology, they understand the basic precepts of programming, and they are willing to open a book. Would you want those three-year guys wasting their time on them if it were otherwise? We see all too many who come here with none of those qualities, for refining. And the biggest problem is they don't understand how to be safe.

For the purposes of this board, there are two approaches to newbies asking questions. Either assume that the newbie understands safety for self and for others, or assume they don't. I think until an understanding of safety can be shown, helping someone continue their stumbling approach to refining is not being responsible.


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## etack (Sep 17, 2013)

I know the search function is hard for some and confusing when you aren't sure what you are looking for. I have noticed that on some forums I visit the topic you are reading has other related topics sourced for you at the bottom. This could be further refined with a like button or a helpful not helpful button too.

I know that this type of thing will take time and money to rework but there is a value in it. In the end of the day it might make the forum more user friendly.

However using Google when asking a question helps. The new search function is only when I first login when I clear my cash or get bumped off. Is there a way to make it part of the whole forum too?

Eric


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## chlaurite (Sep 17, 2013)

AndyWilliams said:


> Please don't be offended, I only write to highlight the difference between those who come here and those you see in your field.


No offense taken, and believe me, I agree with Harold far more than I disagree. And I fully appreciate _your_ example, too - As I said before, someone asking _completely_ clueless questions really shouldn't get an answer other than the bare minimum needed to remediate any immediate hazards. *When* that happens (and you really hit the nail on the head, it _does_ happen all too often!), I usually send them a link to one of the many "30 seconds to hello world" type tutorials in the programming language of their choice. I don't, however, send them away with an admonition to read K&R.

Baby steps, though - Even Ms. Hoke recommends running through a whole array of practice exercises (many of which we modernites can't realistically do, for a variety of reasons); If I would fault her for one single point... Why not find a way to make those _functional_ practice? I started with AP on pennies. The experts here had a good chuckle at my wasting time and chemicals, and rightly so - But I _learned_ from that. I moved on to using that pre-made CuCl2 on 100g of pins. Totally inefficient, impractical, and unprofitable - But I learned more from that one run of pins than I did on my first read-through of Hoke. My second reading, I understood _soooo_ much more for the experiential knowledge I had gained by recovering a tenth of a gram of gold (and probably losing more than that in the process). When Harold says to decant rather than filter, you just can't appreciate "why" until you watch 90% of the fine gold flakes in a batch of AP laugh at a 12 micron filter like you had used nothing better than an old gym sock. :lol: 




AndyWilliams said:


> And the biggest problem is they don't understand how to be safe.


Absolutely correct, and quite possibly my single biggest concern. Before I post anything, I ask myself whether my answer will potentially help or hurt. And I don't always choose well, but some of them seem like no-brainers - Something as simple as telling someone to use AP (with basic safety precautions) instead of AR-in-the-bathroom, for example, limits their realistic damage to a few minor (relative to nitric) acid burns, a trashed garden shed, maybe a rusted-out lawn tractor... vs a very real chance at permanent lung damage, severe acid burns, and death. :shock: 

So which counts as the less harmful option? To reply, or not to reply, _that_ is the question.


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## AndyWilliams (Sep 17, 2013)

chlaurite said:


> To reply, or not to reply, _that_ is the question.



:twisted:


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## Harold_V (Sep 18, 2013)

jeneje said:


> No body is asking for a "free for all" what we are saying is no matter who comes here they should recieve the help they are asking for.


What you don't seem to understand is that isn't giving them help. No matter how badly a guy wants to proceed when he has no clue, he should put an end to the insanity and start reading, until he has at least a basic understanding of the refining process. You'd see that clearly if he was asking to play the piano, but had no clue how to do so. 

For some reason you seem to think it's perfectly alright with these guys jumping in over their heads, then turning to the board for instructions when things have gone south. I don't. You also seem to think that having the simplest of knowledge isn't a requirement in order to proceed. Again, I don't. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If a guy who comes to this board has to ask simple questions, what he needs to do is start reading. If he's not willing to do that, I'd suggest he abandon this board and become a fast reader of *your* board http://refinementofpreciousmetals.com/, where he can ask all the stupid questions he wishes to ask, until you are the one who becomes tired of trying to help people who refuse to help themselves. Lets see how long it takes you to decide that your board is fully cluttered with redundant questions that need not be asked time and again, just as this board has become. 

This entire matter isn't about people not being willing to help---it's about deadbeats looking for the easy way out--one in which I will play no role. I'm going to leave that for you to handle. It's just a matter of time until you start seeing this clearly, even if you're one of the deadbeats of which I speak (I am making no judgment in that regard), as those who love to take others for a ride can quickly see when they are the one hosting the parasite. 



> its easy for us who know how to refine to sit back and say read, read, and read..but it takes a teacher to give answers and encorgement to those in need.


Listen, pal, I'll have you know that you can't "give" information to anyone. They must want it in the first place. Further, if providing them with the information in the way of making reference to published documents, where they can read the same thing you'd tell them if you were willing, is too much for them to overcome, why in hell do you think telling them is going to work? These people are not looking for a hand up--they're looking for a hand-out. I've made it perfectly clear that we are more than willing to help those who help themselves. They prove they are by reading. Too much to ask? You can have them. They're not welcome here, because they'll never be up to anything, and I don't want them cluttering the board with questions that have been asked hundreds of times. Too lazy to read? Get a different hobby. 

I've made no secret of the fact that I was a lousy student, and graduated high school only by the skin of my teeth. I took no advanced mathematics, no chemistry, or no science classes. In spite of that, I learned how to refine by READING. I read Hoke's book, and other worthy publications, including Sir T. K. Rose's The Metallugry of Gold. Armed with that information, please help me understand how a poor student can learn to refine by reading the requiste documents, yet you feel that they can learn only if someone tells them the same thing they can read on their own. 

*This is not a rhetorical question. I expect an answer!*



> Ok, setup a section for newbe's "post your questions here, restrick there posting to that forum, it's easy to do. Go into the admin and set the preferences, after say 200 hunderd post give them total access. Guys it not hard to get a handle on this, It takes a little effort on the part of the admin.
> Ken



Yes, and who do you assume is going to moderate this drivel? That's the very problem we've been trying to address right along. You think that by sending them to a section where they'll still ask questions, but refuse to study as they've been advised, is the solution? 

Nope. You can have them. 

By the way, you've raised all the hell on this board you're going to raise. I see anymore rabble rousing from you and you're going to be history. You don't like the way this board operates? Make sure yours is different. Lets see which one survives. 

Harold

edited to replace misused word. Thanks, Frugal.


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## Harold_V (Sep 18, 2013)

Pantherlikher said:


> Panning through all the junk to find the nuggets is difficult.


And yet some readers insist we keep allowing more and more clutter, making it all the more difficult?
Someone, somewhere (not you) is not thinking this thing through. If this board continues on the path it has followed, no one will be able to find anything without an extensive search engine, if even then. There's just no way to narrow it down to the point where you can ignore all the nonsense that need not be here in the first place--yet some scream for more. 

Go figure!

Harold


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## jeneje (Sep 18, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> jeneje said:
> 
> 
> > No body is asking for a "free for all" what we are saying is no matter who comes here they should recieve the help they are asking for.
> ...


Harold, first off lets get something straight, don't go blaming me for your stupidity. It is you who has this board in such a damn mess that the new members are scared to ask a question. Yes you may have taught yourself how to refine and for that you should be proud. Now, I myself have read hokes book several times and so far I get along just fine with what I need to process.

It is you who needs to set back and take a look at where your board is going, from many on this forum "not just a few" it has already gone down hill. You act like new members don't have any sense at all. Well, I believe you are wrong. To the board I started it may not last at all, if it don't it will not be from lack of trying. 

Your problem Harold is you want to control every little thing on this board and when someone bucks up against you your first response is to BAN them. Well i'm here to you that members here really don't give a good damn one way or the other. I have had many conversation with several that feel that way.

So in closing, Ban me it just makes my point to members here on this forum stronger. It is you I feel sorry for!! 

Ken


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## Palladium (Sep 18, 2013)

I say we help the membership over at http://refinementofpreciousmetals.com/index.php grow by leaps and bounds. Every time i see one of those stupid questions or threads come up that i think is worthy of it your membership on coconut island will grow by one. I do wish you well though i don't think it's going to be an easy road to say the least.

Yeah you are gone now! 
I stand with Harold 100% !


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## its-all-a-lie (Sep 18, 2013)

This should be good!


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## Palladium (Sep 18, 2013)

As far as i'm concerned anybody who has a problem with board policy is welcome to join our fine friend. Here's the answer you all have been waiting for. Seems those that are complaining seem to be newer members and not those of older charter. Your not going to win this argument no matter what you might think. You can talk til your blue in the face. Though i'm one of the first to speak out about suppression or promotion of ones agenda here on the board in this matter i have to say i agree 100% and if you cant tell so does the majority of the moderators.


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## Harold_V (Sep 18, 2013)

jeneje said:


> Harold, first off lets get something straight, don't go blaming me for your stupidity. It is you who has this board in such a damn mess that the new members are scared to ask a question.


That's not true. They're scared to ask a question ONLY if they have failed to try to learn. We've made that perfectly clear, time and again. New readers gain NOTHING by asking questions when they don't have the slightest idea why things work as they do. What I insist on is that they learn those things. If that's too much to ask, it's not my problem, it's theirs. They'd be an ongoing problem for the board, further cluttering it with nonsense that need not be posted. You'll come to see that in your forum, assuming you manage to stay afloat. Others have tried and failed. I wish you luck. 



> It is you who needs to set back and take a look at where your board is going,


It is not "my board", nor have I ever implied it was. I have made mention innumerable times, this board is owned solely by our leader, Noxx, who has entrusted certain of us to oversee its operation. We do the best we can under the circumstances that have presented themselves. 



> from many on this forum "not just a few" it has already gone down hill.


And why do you suppose that is? I have pretty much avoided posting on this board for several months, not having the time it takes to tend to matters. When I did pay attention, what I saw was an endless supply of individuals asking the same questions, day in, day out, and refusing to do the least thing to help themselves. While I hesitate to blame the younger generations, it's no secret that many have no clue about being self sufficient. They've been handed everything in their lives, and have no concept of becoming self sufficient. Well, the world just doesn't work that way. 



> You act like new members don't have any sense at all. Well, I believe you are wrong.


I don't "act" like anything. What I do is observe. Perhaps you've heard of that? 

When a person comes to this forum and wants to be told in ten words or less how to refine, then avoids reading the material that has been recommended, that's not me acting about anything--it's me observing an entitlement attitude, one that will not serve an individual well here, nor should it. 



> To the board I started it may not last at all, if it don't it will not be from lack of trying.


Yes. And trying. And trying. And trying. Like we did here, for several years. What did we get for our trouble? Pages and pages of posts that have made the board unusable, with people endlessly asking yet more questions, to further muddy the board. I wish you luck with yours. 



> Your problem Harold is you want to control every little thing on this board and when someone bucks up against you your first response is to BAN them. Well i'm here to you that members here really don't give a good damn one way or the other. I have had many conversation with several that feel that way.


You seem to be adept at describing what "my problems" are, but you're not exactly right. What "my problem" is is individuals who refuse to do for themselves, and can't see the wisdom in gaining the necessary knowledge before getting involved in refining. They make it "my problem" by continuing to muddy the forum, making it less and less useful for everyone. They could help by trying to educate themselves, but that appears to be too much to ask. If you want people like that on your forum, you can have them. We'll keep those who hope to achieve a level of excellence, and have social values and manners. We don't really want the others here, anyway, as they simply lower the standard we've tried to hard to create. 



> So in closing, Ban me it just makes my point to members here on this forum stronger. It is you I feel sorry for!!
> 
> Ken



Don't feel sorry for me--what I don't need is your pity (and I sure as hell don't feel sorry for you---I'm simply amused at your ignorance). By the time I was your age I was very well established and self sufficient. I did that by trying to live a good life, by doing the right thing, by being responsible, and reliable. I didn't achieve my level of success by cheating, lying and stealing from others, and I sleep well at nights, knowing I have done the best I can. In my life, I have never drawn a dime of unemployment pay, and have earned my way entirely. I need no pity. 

Feel free to say about me what you wish, but if you say one more thing that disrupts this forum, I'll gladly ban you. I'm not the least bit concerned about what you think of me, or what you say about me. Those who know me will know and understand the truth. You can have those who sympathize with you. I'm not sure we'd want them here, either. Our objective is to have readers with greater standards and objectives than to live off the sweat and toil of others. 

You did not address my question. Doesn't surprise me in the least. That's precisely what I expected from you, and was the purpose in suggesting a response was required. Thanks for confirming my hunch. 

Harold


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## freechemist (Sep 18, 2013)

JHS, you really hit the point:

_"I have an orphin grandson living in our home.He just turned 18.He came home complaining bitterly about his chemestry teachers methods of teaching.
The teacher hands out e packets to the students,as daily assignments.The teacher returns to his desk,turns on his computer and ignores even the simple questions.the entire school year,last year they went to the lab once."_

Recovery/refining of precious metals, and especially related chemistry, IMHO, can neither be learned only by reading, nor taught only by saying: "read!" (e.g. Hoke). Both result in deep frustration, because there is no real relationship to matters involved. There's also no occasion, to observe the subjects of research reactions on experimental conditions, we impose. 

To understand deeply, what is going on, one has to practice, to experiment in the lab, first with carefully selected reference materials, like samples of precious metals, base metals, reagents/chemicals of reliable, trustful origin. Ideally, this is done in parallel to reading (e.g. Hoke), to get acquainted with the needed theoretical basics, too. One wise member of this forum - presently, I don't know anymore, who, - once posted, that observation and patience are two key-skills to succeed.


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## Lou (Sep 18, 2013)

freechemist said:


> Recovery/refining of precious metals, and especially related chemistry, IMHO, can neither be learned only by reading, nor taught only by saying: "read!" (e.g. Hoke). Both result in deep frustration, because there is no real relationship to matters involved. There's also no occasion, to observe the subjects of research reactions on experimental conditions, we impose.
> 
> To understand deeply, what is going on, one has to practice, to experiment in the lab, first with carefully selected reference materials, like samples of precious metals, base metals, reagents/chemicals of reliable, trustful origin. Ideally, this is done in parallel to reading (e.g. Hoke), to get acquainted with the needed theoretical basics, too. One wise member of this forum - presently, I don't know anymore, who, - once posted, that observation and patience are two key-skills to succeed.




That is how I learned, heuristically.


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## lazersteve (Sep 18, 2013)

freechemist said:


> ... who, - once posted, that observation and patience are two key-skills to succeed.



For those who don't know, I started refining as a hobbyist a year or so before I joined the forum and studied nearly every ancient and modern text on the subject of dissolving precious metals that I could find. I assembled numerous binders on key aspects from the old texts which described how one should recover and refine all types of precious metals. I spent countless days working in my lab to test the processes I was reading about trying to duplicate the results given in the books. I was making all of my own reagents and doing small scale experiments on my own.

I eventually found the forum and was told of Hokes book by Harold. Once I began reading Hoke and trying the various step by step experiments she describes, many of the processes I was unsure of from my studies fell into place. After a few more years of hard work studying and experimenting I was able to leave my cushy government job of eleven years and started a successful refining career that still thrives today. Now I refine everyday and would never think of going back to my old job. Early on I learned that the two skills of observation patience are the most valuable tools one could ever posses in this field. 

I have many people here on the forum and some that are not here, to thank for my refining success. Believe it or not, I was learning from freechemist's web postings, *years before* he ever joined the forum. He actually indirectly taught me about Rhodium via my web searches for Rhodium which contained some of his writings. The key to my eventual refining success was my devotion and a drive to do things the right way. When I first came to the forum I did not value getting my gold to the highest purity possible. This is something that Harold instilled in me along with the value of reading Hoke. Once I bought a copy of Hoke and really started following her teachings, I soon saw the light in why things happened the way they do. Her teachings also sparked me to read other texts to find out what was going on chemically with the processes she described. This passion and study lead me to realize that the final purity of your refining work speaks of who you are and of your *devotion* to the art of refining. It is like your brand when you enter a business transaction with a new customer. 

This 'brand' can not be given to you in a few short answers or posts on a forum, it is something you must earn with your own hard work and dedication. You must be patient and observe first hand the results of your own work to learn what you are doing right or wrong. The forum is here to guide those that have the dedication and wherewith all to tough it out and do the hard work required to succeed, it is not here to provide instant success to all who enter. 

Steve


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## RikkiRicardo (Sep 18, 2013)

lazersteve
Very well put
You are another one that i respect very glad you are here.
You have help many people on here
New and old
but these people where also reading and experimenting
Keep up the great work 

RikkiRicardo


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## bomer (Sep 20, 2013)

wow, honestly i never intended for this to ne a big deal. As far as deadbeats you refer to sir . I can assure you my IQ is atleast 5+ points higher than yours. I didnt know where to post my question and if it wasnt for the responses I got , I would of threw some baking soda on that bowl with water and poured into a old laundry detergent bottle labeled it and took it to waste management.thats to the point i was at with it,but since a few folks led me in the right direction I stayed with and was able to complete the entire process yesterday. The Hoke booked helped tremendously but if it were nort for those few members I would not of cared enough to attempt further, I am not a chemist,I have taken chemistry but to satify academic prerequisites.So you really need to open your mind and lose your narrowminded concepts unless you think Rock n Roll is a communist plot against democracy,or better yet that we havent weaponized space yet and our spaceshuttles were shaped like our fighter airplanes/bombers is just mere coincedence. Narrowmindeness is a cime that often goes unpunished.


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## Harold_V (Sep 20, 2013)

freechemist said:


> To understand deeply, what is going on, one has to practice, to experiment in the lab, first with carefully selected reference materials, like samples of precious metals, base metals, reagents/chemicals of reliable, trustful origin. Ideally, this is done in parallel to reading (e.g. Hoke), to get acquainted with the needed theoretical basics, too. One wise member of this forum - presently, I don't know anymore, who, - once posted, that observation and patience are two key-skills to succeed.



Heh! You may not understand it, but you're saying the same thing I keep saying. 
Anyone who HAS read Hoke may understand WHY I keep harping on the book. It does EXACTLY what you suggested, and does it in such a way that the reader will understand. She presents the requisite experiments, teaches how to test, how to make standard solutions and various types of testing solutions. She then hand carries the individual through the various methods of refining. It's all there. Readers are simply unwilling to turn a hand for their own good, as they WON'T read the book. They just keep demanding to be told. That isn't going to fly here anymore. They're going to do their part, or they are not welcome. *I am not going to back off that position.* We've been kicking this problem around for several years, and nothing has come from it except a board filled with entitlement minded individuals who have posted the same things so many time the board has become useless. If it continues, who do you expect to manage things? Most of us, as moderators, are already more than tired of the status quo. It simply is not working. 

Bomer, 
I find it interesting that you claim to know that your IQ is five points higher than mine, when you don't know me, nor do you have any idea of my mental capacity. I can assure you that if your writing skills are any indication, you certainly do not have a higher IQ--as you appear to be unable to put ten words together that make a lot of sense, and you certainly have no spelling skills. I consider each of them to be an indicator of one's mental capacity. Could be wrong, though. 

I was in the Utah National Guard as a youngster. Our company of 128 men was tested. I was second out of 128. We either had a lot of morons in our outfit (we most likely did), or I was somewhat above average. You do the math. 

I've clearly stated I have no formal education. I am more than aware of the fact that I am not a stupid person. Stupid people don't work with a security clearance, doing defense work, learning to refine by reading a book, founding and operating an exceedingly successful refining service for many years, and retiring at age 54. 

By the way, thanks for changing your board name. I think you'll come to understand the wisdom of having done so as you progress. 

Harold


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## butcher (Sep 20, 2013)

I can see good coming from members studying to increase there knowledge, safety, and skill.
I can see good coming from members being respectful of other members.

This good will not only help the individual member, but also the forums knowledge base, making the forum better for us all. 

In this we can all help each other become better refiners.

We either wish to improve ourselves, or fail, I feel we have a choice, I also feel we should not allow ourselves to be dragged down by those who choose failure as an option.

this topic started with, "(heres what i got any ideas)"

Here is what I Have any ideas?


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## AndyWilliams (Sep 20, 2013)

butcher said:


> I can see good coming from members studying to increase there knowledge, safety, and skill.
> I can see good coming from members being respectful of other members.
> 
> This good will not only help the individual member, but also the forums knowledge base, making the forum better for us all.
> ...



Here is what I have*,* any ideas? 8)


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