# Black gold flakes?



## TreySeaJax (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi again. Another question. If you cook something you suspect will be a lower Karat of gold and it comes out with a lot of flux on it and decide to melt it off in a diluted sulfuric acid wash and black flakes jump out is that gold? If so what should I do to it next?

It would be nice to skip ahead to the part where this happens after inquartation.

Thanks,
Trey


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## jimdoc (Jul 27, 2018)

You need to learn how to test items. You also need to study the forum to learn all the safety concerns.
You should put everything away and study the forum. Build up your material until you have enough to recover the gold from, and know how to do it safely.


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## TreySeaJax (Jul 28, 2018)

Respectfully, my main issue is being poor financially. I have a good respirator, nitric resistant gloves, an outdoor work space with an exaust fan. 

I am not going to hurt myself or the environment around me. I have been studying hard and intend to read every post I can on this board. This is why I joined. Everything I have read so far seems highly intelligent and experienced.

I was reluctant to join a forum mostly because this is private to me. However, I am not a chemist. I don't know everything. I would like help. I will read more before asking any more questions.

So I don't have 30 bucks to order a stannous test and have had issues making my own. I can't pay 30 bucks a liter for good nitric acid, however what I have made seems to at least not be contaminated as it melts silver quickly and copper slower and it won't touch gold unless I add HCL. Also, it does not produce as much deadly red fume and the need for dilution is not as great. 

Another reason I joined that group is because Kadriver or Streetips uses this board and he takes time to explain things. He is no chemist either but seems to have a passion similar to mine. After reading his post on inquartation I see this board has helped him as well with safety tips and results driven proceedures.

I have been interested in metals since a very young age and have always wanted to refine scrap or decent 14k gold into something pure. Nothing is pure in this world but why not try right?

Now I am 47 and have lived a great life aside from financial ruin. I finally have the chance to learn more and actually do what I want. 

This is 30 grams of probably 6-12 Karat of over fluxed gold that I have gotten to this point from computer waste. If I can finish processing it maybe I can at least afford a scratch test kit so I can guess better what purity it is now. I have not mastered torching skills yet and am using store bought Borax. I tried the Oxalic acid recovery once and failed miserably but the only thing hurt was my pride.

Please guide me but don't worry about me


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## jimdoc (Jul 28, 2018)

My advice is still slow down and study the forum. Work on accumulating more computer scrap for free while you learn. There are plenty of poor people learning here, just study what they do and the advice they have been given.


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## Geo (Jul 28, 2018)

Very unlikely that it's gold if you have already melted it and that stayed un-melted. Take a few of the flakes and put them in a small glass container. Add a few ml's of HCl, lets say 5 ml's. Add to this chlorine bleach by the drop. Add a few drops of bleach and swirl it around. Give it a few minutes and check on it. If the flakes dissolved, test the solution with stannous chloride. If the flakes did not dissolve, it is either not metals, or it is a highly non-reactive metal, like rhodium. White gold and high quality silver jewelry may be plated in rhodium. It may not dissolve in hot AR if it is rhodium. It will, however be very bright and shiny flakes.


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## TreySeaJax (Jul 28, 2018)

Thank you for the tip. I promise to be very careful. The only things I am working with for now are gold silver and copper. 

I am saving MLCCs and hard drive disks unsmashed until I have a better understanding of platnum group metals.

The odd things that I don't expect just make me more curious. When I get sliver chloride I know it and it is lame but I also know how to turn it back to nitrate. Yes, it has stained my hands, sneaky stuff.

Thank you again,


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## Dr.xyz (Jul 29, 2018)

Why not just sell stuff "as is" on ebay usually for more than it's worth?

After some time you have collected enough funds to continue refining the proper way. That approach also gives you more time to study. If even stannous is too difficult, then you have a loooong way to go.


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## Shark (Jul 29, 2018)

A quick search of the forum for stannous chloride will find what seems likwe a million hits. There are so many ways to make it that financial situation should not be a factor. You can use some types of solder, pewter, and even the eco friendly type tin fishing sinkers. I prefer the fishing sinkers as they fit my solution bottle with out having to cut them up, and I have quite a lot of them on hand.


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 29, 2018)

You also should know that no respirator will protect you from nitric fumes


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## TreySeaJax (Jul 30, 2018)

So yes the nitric fumes I stay away from. I did spend 50 bucks on the respirator as it was the most acid resistant and an extra precautionary measure so I don't have to tell the doctor I didn't inhale. Hopefully that will be some evedence my priorities are in order with safety first. Money for respirator but not other things.

Sure I have a long way to go. The stannous test I tried to make, after a couple of attempts I just put it on the back burner. I don't pour anything out until it is clear, filtered and ph of 7 so the need to know if there is gold in the solution was not as great. If it is in the soultion it will just go to a bucket for later treatment and not be lost forever. I would like to attempt again and your tips are appreciated and why I joined.

I only have a few pounds of hard drive disks and less of MLCCs. I am not really into selling as-is computer waste. I have done ok so far. You have to start somewhere right? If someone wants to trade those for easier to process stuff like ram cards, let's talk. I have had good luck with fingers and pins. I am doing really small batches as recommended on the board and started with very small batches before I joined.

So as far as the black flakes go... Let me start with how they got there in the first place. I have read in several places if you decant then strain a sloution with sediment and you aren't real sure what mixture you have, sometimes it is not a bad idea to just cook it. Again for safety reasons there should not have been anything other than gold silver and copper. It cemented to stainless from waste aqueous copper nitrate being cleared. I did notice a bit of fine black powder and thought it may be gold... No stannous test... I know I should figure that one out quick. But at least I am beginnging to recognize the thick brown copper particles. The silver seemed to come out in super tiny metallic spines, really cool. The fine black powder I have seen and cooked and it came back gold.

After transferring and removing the stainless then allowing to settle then decanting and filtering the suspected gold mixed with the copper. The silver looked more like grey sliver nitrate, not sure why that happened. I knew I could wash with more nitric but had to make more. So I rinsed with water. The ph was just shy of 7 so I figured it was ok to cook it all together.

I need practice melting and fluxing. After cooking it smashing it and recooking it the cost of gas was on my mind. The alien-head looking globs looked like copper I had reclaimed before with the usual coating of I use too much flux.

Instead of smashing and recooking I just wanted to remove the fulx to see if the gold was inside so I gave it a bath in diluted sulphuric. After about 20 minutes the flux was in the solution. There were ugly chunky bits of red brown copper. The silver was probably stuck in the copper since they are friends and inseperable without effort. The black flakes I had also seen before. They looked just like the ones I saw when I put 6kt gold in nitric.

So I am I way off base here?


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## Geo (Jul 30, 2018)

Lots of things there that needs to be cleared up. In an acidic solution, it is very hard to have gold and silver in the same solution. It just doesn't work that way. Nitric acid alone will not dissolve gold and a chloride solution will not hold silver as silver chloride is a solid. So you couldn't have cemented gold and silver from the same solution. Why are you cementing waste onto stainless steel? It is not very reactive and using it for the purpose of cementing metals is counter productive. Plain, ordinary soft steel is less expensive and works much better without contaminating the solution with even more toxic heavy metals like chromium, cobalt and other metals that are in stainless steel. Just because a metal is yellow doesn't mean it's gold. Go to my youtube channel and watch my video on making stannous chloride test solution. I used solder to make mine. 
https://youtu.be/659G75Kc3F0


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## g_axelsson (Jul 30, 2018)

If you want to learn the chemistry used in refining then you need to learn the terms we use.

- I have no idea what you mean with "cooking".
- You don't "melt" metals in acid, you dissolve metals in acid.

I suggest you download Hoke's book and read it. It will teach you some of the language we use and make it easier for us to understand each other.

Göran


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## TreySeaJax (Jul 30, 2018)

Geo, 
Your video is great. I actually watched before I tried the first time. I just had bad materials to work with I think.

I was focused on dissolving gold. Was very satisfied just making Aqua Regia and watching it dissolve into the solution. Everything after that I did not fully understand. I read about it. Watched videos. But it seems poeple who have done it often have trouble getting a good drop. Once I got it dissolved I cemented it out on copper and with no stannous test a lot went into waste bucket.

I have been working in very small batches. A few of the first gold solutions went directly into waste buckets. Not lost, just to be seen later. 

This batch of "waste" was a half gallon of my sample solutions containing copper gold and silver. This batch had fine black powder in it from one of the first gold solutions. 

I have tried different things to cement out copper and yes clean mild steel works great. With this batch I used a couple "stainless" dinner knives. I worked okay but took longer. Also ph was near neutral so probably not more dangerous than leaving a spoon in vinegar.

Some of the cemented material containing gold I melted. What I thought was less than 10k I soaked in nitric hoping some would be 6k or less and break apart like Hoke said it would in her book. Some did some did not. What did must have been 25% or less and what did not over 1/4 gold. The black flakes looked much like the ones I am asking about.

I have done a couple drops with SMB and the results were better. I am saving that black powder and the black flakes that came from the 6k or less nitric treatment for a new crucible I am getting after payday.

The metal that looked gold went to the pawn shop to be availed of their scratch test until I can afford my own. The pawnbroker's test showed some was closest to 10k some 14k and some 18k. Nothing I took in failed the test completely.

Goran, apologies for not using proper terms. I have read Hoke's book and did download it for quick reference, actually one of the perks I joined to use. I have also read many posts. 

You used to make rockets and blew a couple up in Sweeden member 1008. Hope you found a steady supply of SMB. I have no idea what number I am but you have responded to so many newcomers to the group since 2007.

Surely it gets tough over a decade reading people's struggles to get started. Especially if they spent a lifetime owning a restaurant and are comfortable using the term cook meaning to apply heat. I will try to only use melt from now on when talking about torching powders hoping to make them shine. I know acids dissolve and don't really melt, maybe I have watched Alien too many times.

I always try to be respectful, especially when I am new to things. This board is great and I am thankful. Please don't mistake my misuse of terms for ignorance. In 2007 you were here learning as I am now.


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## TreySeaJax (Jul 31, 2018)

Learning, studying, taking advice, slowing down, thank you....


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## butcher (Jul 31, 2018)

It sounds to me like your common sense may be recovering from the gold fever.


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## TreySeaJax (Jul 31, 2018)

This is not a new thing for me. The desire to be able to do these things. The interest in metals goes back to childhood.

I guess it is like you all say on the board about Aqua Regia. Use a lot of HCl (passion and safety) then add just enough Nitric (zeal) to do the job.

Thank you all.


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## TreySeaJax (Aug 3, 2018)

Stannous test. Thanks Geo and others...


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## Shark (Aug 5, 2018)

When first getting started even the simple things seemed almost impossible for me. I just kept reading, and asking a few questions along until the little I do know started to make sense. Looking back, it seems rediculous at the things that seemed hard back then. Even a mountain can be moved with a spoon if one is willing to put forth the effort.


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