# a/p questions



## andees78 (Aug 10, 2010)

hello

i want to get a little experience with the ap method. last night i mixed (15 ml hcl) with (7.5 ml hp 3%) then i put some fingers, pins, simcards, cell phone board( know i should not mix but i want to know what happens for each).
1-after a while the solutin became pale blue then green and i started to see very small foils swiming around and some brown dust dropping down :lol: .
2-then i noticed that the gold is no longer leaching :shock: .
3-so i started to add more 2hcl:1hp(6%). when i add hcl the solution is blue. when i add hp the solution becomes yellow green starts fizzing and then back to blue. and gold stops getting out. i continued adding untill 50 ml hcl:27ml hp
4-i left the solution overnight. in the morning the solution is clear blue, lot of mud on the bottom but still not all the gold is out.

please bear my too many questions  :
1-my source of hcl is a detergent brand named flash, its written on the bottle that it contains hydrogen chloride, its like milk in colour and i dont know its concentration :?: . is the results i got satisfactory or should i look for another source?
2-can i leave this solution for any period of time with the gold dissolved till i have more scrap?
3-the first hp added was 6% mixed with same ammount of water to dillute to 3%. should i do that everytime or is it ok to use 6%?
4-one of the boards had a small steel cover and i noticed some brown mud attatched to it. how to clean that?
5-there is some white stuff over the mud. what is that? could it be from the white hcl?

any help is much appreciated. thanks


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## qst42know (Aug 10, 2010)

I would continue to look for a better source. I'm not familiar with your flash cleaner but from your description of a milky liquid reminds me of toilet bowl cleaners I have seen that contain high concentrations of ammonium chloride along with a low concentration of hydrogen chloride (5-10%). I don't know how much this will interfere with your recovery efforts but a clear source of known concentration would be beneficial.


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## gold4mike (Aug 10, 2010)

You should visit Lazersteve's website and view his videos on the AP process. 

Once you have the reaction going you should not need to add any more H2O2. Your goal is to get the copper to dissolve from under the gold, NOT to dissolve the gold itself. The brown powder you saw dropping was most likely the gold you have in solution coming back out due to further dissolution of the copper.

If the reaction appears to have stopped you can add air bubbles with an aquarium style air pump and stone to get it going again.


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## andees78 (Aug 11, 2010)

hello 

thanks for replies.

the flash (white colour, bowl cleaner, contains HCl) seems to do a good job. i can see micro foils of gold leaching away from the fingers. is that enough for HCl source ? i will try to find a better one, but i just want to know?

thanks


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## gold4mike (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm not sure if you'll find a similar product in Sudan, but I buy concrete cleaner locally at a home improvement center for about $6.00/gallon. It is HCl and water.


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## qst42know (Aug 11, 2010)

AP is a recovery stage, dirty by it's nature. Just because it appears to work doesn't mean it's working properly, is it removing all you need it to, is it removing something you want to keep, and is it adding something you want to avoid. 

For the refine and rinse stages I would want something cleaner and more predictable.


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## andees78 (Aug 13, 2010)

hello

thanks for your concern. 
a friend gave me litre of HCl. on the bottle its written 37% concentration. and (HCl.M=36,46.D=~1,19g/cm³). will this be ok? 

thanks


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## qst42know (Aug 13, 2010)

Sounds like the right stuff.

Be sure to check your flash solution for dissolved gold with stannous.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 21, 2010)

I want to say that AP is not quick process. While it can be observed how foils become loose from fingers, to get everything done properly it is of more benefit let things in solution for couple of days. In my case I am not pressed by time so I let everything marinate even weeks. To rush process we do not add more and more of HCl or H2O2 but agitating batch, using crock pot and bubling air through batch. That will rush reaction and you save lot of time. If you are not pressed by time you can save money spend on heating or running bubler.


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## hfywc (Aug 21, 2010)

gold4mike said:


> I'm not sure if you'll find a similar product in Sudan, but I buy concrete cleaner locally at a home improvement center for about $6.00/gallon. It is HCl and water.



hi mike.

just wondering what brand is this you're refering to...thanks alan.


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## philddreamer (Aug 21, 2010)

Klean-Strip is the brand I use. I buy it @ Home-Depot for a little over $6.00 a gl. It comes in 2 "flavors", regular or with buffers that control 90% of the fumes. I preffer the standard. I tried @ Lowe's, but never found it. I haven't check other places. 

Phil


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## lazersteve (Aug 21, 2010)

philddreamer said:


> Klean-Strip is the brand I use. I buy it @ Home-Depot for a little over $6.00 a gl. It comes in 2 "flavors", regular or with buffers that control 90% of the fumes. I preffer the standard. I tried @ Lowe's, but never found it. I haven't check other places.
> 
> Phil



I get mine at Lowes (clear 31.45%) for around 10 bucks for two gallons in a plain cardboard box. You can find it outside in the garden center with the swimming pool supplies. Lowes also sells it for a little bit higher in the paint section just below the rack of solvents.

Steve


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## philddreamer (Aug 21, 2010)

Thanks Steve! I'll check the pool supplies area next time.


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## andees78 (Aug 25, 2010)

qst42know said:


> I would continue to look for a better source. I'm not familiar with your flash cleaner but from your description of a milky liquid reminds me of toilet bowl cleaners I have seen that contain high concentrations of ammonium chloride along with a low concentration of hydrogen chloride (5-10%). I don't know how much this will interfere with your recovery efforts but a clear source of known concentration would be beneficial.



hello everyone

quest42know i know we have been through this. but am always trying to find a regular source for chemicals, i wont be able always to get that 37% HCl. so yesterday i found another kind of FLASH bottled for sudan, i openened the cover and found that it is clourless not like the last one and has a very light smell of acid, maybe a dilute solution, the concentration is unknown. so i said i will try that for a micro batch. i put 20 ml of that in a jar and dropped 4 fingers and six pins. after three hours nothing happenned. so i added 3 ml of hydrogen peroxide. this morning i found the gold foils swiming in the solution. what do you think? 
i put another micro batch in another jar and put plain HCl and will update you?

i would be glad if anyone advise.


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## jimdoc (Aug 25, 2010)

You should be able to look up an MSDS sheet on any product you find to see what it is.It is safer than just guessing if the label doesn't clearly mark the ingredients.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_safety_data_sheet

Jim


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## andees78 (Aug 25, 2010)

hello
if i cant find the sheets, cant i just tell by how it works?


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## qst42know (Aug 25, 2010)

Do you have stannous chloride to test for dissolved gold?


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## andees78 (Aug 25, 2010)

no i dont. i will try to make some. do i just dissolve normal solder tin in hcl?


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## philddreamer (Aug 25, 2010)

Your solder has to be at least 90% tin.

goldenchild wrote:
Go get a little 8oz spool of solid tin wire at a local hardware store. I have a spool that will probably out live me. Its 95% tin 5% antimony. Cut a piece off about an inch long and put it in your HCL. Wait until there is no more reaction. Heat to speed up the process. With 15 ml it shouldnt be able to fully digest the entire wire which is good because you want to have undissolved tin in the solution to keep it fresh. If not keep adding half inch cuts until the solution wont dissolve anymore. Try to keep this solution in a glass stopper bottle or airtight jar of some sort. Dont worry about the black powder at the bottom of the solution. It wont hurt anything so there is no need to filter. Your solution should last indefinately if done like this.

Phil


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## dtectr (Aug 25, 2010)

andees78 said:


> qst42know said:
> 
> 
> > I would continue to look for a better source. I'm not familiar with your flash cleaner but from your description of a milky liquid reminds me of toilet bowl cleaners I have seen that contain high concentrations of ammonium chloride along with a low concentration of hydrogen chloride (5-10%). I don't know how much this will interfere with your recovery efforts but a clear source of known concentration would be beneficial.
> ...


is this the product you are using?


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## andees78 (Aug 26, 2010)

hello
no its a different bottle, but same brand. but its leeching the foils.


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## qst42know (Aug 26, 2010)

Here is the MSDS for flash toilet bowl cleaner.

http://www.pgprof.com/upload/documents/flashtoiletcleanermsds.pdf


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## andees78 (Aug 26, 2010)

hello qst42know. the sheet says it contains DISODIUM DIHYDROGEN (1-HYDROXYETHYLIDENE), HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, SULFURIC ACID. but the bottle i have says it contains hydrogen chloride. thanks


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## qst42know (Aug 26, 2010)

There many chemical formulas that will clean toilets and thats the problem with using something that you can't identify.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 27, 2010)

I encountered strange thing. I changed my concrete cleaner brand as that is the only source of HCl on my side of Atlantic. I took some pins from old laptops. They were rich gold color and very small. Most of them. I put them to HCl and after about one hour I noticed 90% of them changed color to white-silver color. Before when I did that pins started to dissolve and after few days I saw only gold foils floating. What do you think is that some form of precipitate on them or gold plating disappeared? There is no change in color in liquid just pins turned silverish. I will try introduce some H2O2 in liquid.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 27, 2010)

Patnor,

There are various chemical inhibitors that are commonly added to HCl (or, other acids) to greatly slow down or stop the attack on different metals, such as steel or copper. These are usually organic materials that put a coating on the metal. I would not be surprised if the product you bought contains these. Here's an example of one of these products.
http://www.cpindustries.ca/industrial-food-processing/food-beverage/meat-processor/acidiccleaners/inhibitedmuriaticacid/

This is one of the pitfalls of using products that are designed for another application. I remember some people having problems with sulfuric drain cleaners that contained inhibitors, when using them in a stripping cell.

Look on the label for long organic names, although they may, or may not, be listed on the list of ingredients, even though they are present.

The addition of of a little strong H2O2 might break down the organics and render them inactive. However, this may also be enough H2O2 to dissolve the gold foils


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## patnor1011 (Aug 28, 2010)

Thanks Chris, 
That will be the case. I just jumped on that because of price. 
However after checking label i indeed says that it contains "special surface agents coupled with a unique acid inhibition" I think that I will stick with my regular proven products.


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## patnor1011 (Aug 28, 2010)

You were right. I took them out, washed several times with water and played with torch over them. They were nice and yellow shiny again. That teach me something new again. Thanks.


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