# Muradic acid w/Carbon electrodes Hydrogen/Chlorine process



## dallasgoldbug

Hello all,
Forgive me if this process has been discussed previously. I did a search on the topic but didn't see anything posted.

For the past 6 months I have been using Muradic Acid as an electrolyte in a vertical column with carbon rods/disks as electrodes, Cathode at the bottom and anode at the top, to disolve gold and other metals from boards and fingers. 

I use 8-15volts DC and around 10amps to disolve everything including platinum into the solution. The platinum disolves when the solution is heated (I just turn up the juice and that is sufficient to increase the temperature. It will boil if you let it.
Using higher amps, dissolve everything faster, but be aware of the hydrogen bubbles that will vented out the top of your column. Make sure the connections to your top electrode are secure and don't remove it while the power is on or you can create a spark resulting in possible BANG!

As the metals begin to dissolve, copper will plate to the anode (top carbon rod or disk). I periodically turn off the power, remove the electrode and scrape the copper off into a separate container. 

The solution turns green at first, then a much darker color at the bottom, as Hydrogen/Chlorine is created and slowly moves up the column. The solution is contained and never escapes the rig (unless you have a spill) Very interesting to watch it attack the boards. The gold falls off and sometimes create a bright pure gold ring around the column. 

The time to complete the process will vary with size of your column and amount of current applyed. Mine is a cylinder glass flower vase I found at Marshals ($10), and is about 2.5' x 7" 1/4" thick. It usually completes the process in 2 days. You can use a plastic bucket, 5 gallon water jug, or tupperware container from wallmart if you want. 

But the fun begins when you try to connect the bottom electrode to the power lead without allowing it to come in contact with the solution.
I use a volt and amp meter connected to the rig so I can tell if a connection is compromised. 

I also use Dow Corning 3140 RTV to coat all contacts points, with the lead running through a small hole I drilled in the side of the glass. (took about 30min to slowly drill with a glass bit) I filled the bottom of the container with the sealent up past this hole (about 1" thick) I encased the carbon disk and its connection in the sealant allowing only the top side of the electrode to be visible. 

You can try running a wire down the inside of the column but will run into problems as the solution slowly penetrates the wire. I even tried using coated wire used in the oil and gas industry but found the next weakest link was the connection. 

Using glass I find the RTV sufficient even when the glass flexes due to temperature change. Plastic containers dont seem to hold as well. If you do use plastic make sure to put the whole thing in a container (5 gallon bucket) just in case you spring a leak. 

The advantage to this process is only needing Muradic, and not having to deal with Nitric.

Plus no need for urea, just SMB out the gold.

A word of advise, make sure you do this process in a place where you can vent off the fumes. I learned that lesson when I discovered everything in my kitchen (where I had the rig running) started to corode. 

I can post photos of my rig if you are interested.

Your comments please.

Thanks
DallasGoldBug


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## Irons

Clever setup. I can see how generating Chlorine gas at the bottom of the column would aid digestion by circulating the liquid.

Once the solution is saturated with Chlorine, generating more will just create excess pressure and outgassing of the Chlorine.

Have you tried to cycle the power to generate the Chlorine as needed?


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## Anonymous

dallasgoldbug please do post pictures of your setup, what a marvelous way to manufacture chlorine for digestion. 

Irons I think you hit it when you suggested pulsating the current as needed. I think this rig has a lot of potential and plenty of room for modifications.

Gill


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## dallasgoldbug

Ive been researching patents and processes while I design a stand alone unit. The liquid would circulate through a second column where it can be cooled or heated along with filtered, then running through a condenser enabling the acid to be reused. 

Only having to deal with only Muradic cuts production costs and recycling/reusing it eliminates having to dealing with disposal of harmful by products. 

So far I haven't had a problem with out gassing. Seems to remain contained in the liquid. I typically run it without a lid to allow the hydrogen to escape. In the final design the reaction chamber will be enclosed, but until I get it finished, Ive been building an active charcoal filter attachment that eliminates most of the corrosive fumes.

The goal is to have a small closet size unit that can constantly run. All you would have to do is keep throwing in the fingers/scrap and switching out the end filters containg your end product. 
Another option is to plate the end product out. 

Make sure you throw me a bone if you uses my ideas to make a billion. 
Donations are happily accepted.


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## Anonymous

What if you used the first column to generate the chlorine, introducing the gas into the base of a second column containing your gold bearing scrap.

Wondering if you could run the second column dry with only the chlorine passing through. After a couple of days introduce a water bath to dislodge any values, drain and collect for further preperations.

The advantage of the seconded column would be that you would not have to clean your carbons nor filter the muriatic acid.

Gill


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## dallasgoldbug

Yep using a second column to generate it was a thought, but keeping the carbon electrodes in the loop has its advantages. It removes the copper (as mentioned before) but by changing the carbon to other materials is a way to to plate out other metals plus the bubbles that travel up the column also assist in removing the gold. 

You'll find yourself with flashlight in hand fixated for hours watching the process. I finally ended up running a plexiglass rod down the inside wall and attached the end to 4 LEDs. It works well to illuminate the solution. 

Additionally using the electrodes heats the solution making it work much faster this allows platinum to be dissolved without adding external heat. Of course you could heat the second column to achieve the same effect, but this just consumes more power, introduces additional hardware, and creates additional opportunity for accidents to happen. That was a bad day :shock: almost bit the big one when the column took a fall.

I just took some photos of the setup and will post them in a few minutes.


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## dallasgoldbug

Photo:
#2 Looking down the column at the carbon disk at bottom imbeded in RTV

#3 Top Electrode attached to pvc holder with RTV surrounding it. the electrode is attached to a stainless rod that can be lowered down into the column so the electrode touches the liquid. The blue cap is a plastic bottle cap acting as a nut that the electrode is lowered through.

#4 top of the stainless rod. Stainless wire connection that goes to neg of power. As long as there is a current running through the stainless it will resist corrosion. You could use a stainless container for the reaction vessel but if the power were to go out, the solution would begin to eat it. So stick to plastic or better glass.

#5 rig is in the center. TO the left is a HHO column that I built to generate Hydrogen for welding and cutting. Soon to be installed in my car.

#6 Bottom of column showing the hole drilled in it connecting the anode to the positive power.

#7 Small DC Power supply with two multimeters to read volts and amps while your cooking. Also shows if there is an open in your setup.

#8 Base of the column (an old subwoofer speaker. I mounted a computer fan in the center that can be used in emergencies to cool the column.

#9 rig with top on

#10 Old unit I built with two gravity filters attached to the side that filtered the solution as it cycled.

#11 Small cups that stack together. each with drain holes in bottems. (bought them at dollar store) They screw together and can stack as many as you want. Helpful when removing the fingers after processing or retrieving gem stones from jewelry.

#12 me and the rigs


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## dallasgoldbug

photos 2


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## Irons

You may find that this unit, basically a HCl/Cl digester, may work just as well at room temperature since the solubility of CL2 in water decreases rapidly as the temperature rises. The chlorine is what does the digestion and even though increasing the temperature will speed up the reaction, it will slow down because of loss of Chlorine.
You might also try diluting the HCl since the process works very well in a Ph range of 1-5. This will save on having to distill of or neutralize excess HCl and reduce loss from evaporation. Using NaCl /HCl as a Chlorine source is another tack to consider.

I have material digesting nicely in the barn at 0 Deg. C using HCl/Cl and even on a day that went down to -23 Deg. C, it was still digesting away nicely because the Chlorine concentration can get quite high at those temperatures without outgassing.


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## lazersteve

Dallas,

Neat rig. 

Some questions:

How much scrap do you process in a single 2 day cycle? 

What other metals end up in the solution and which end up as a sludge in the bottom?

How does silver react in the chamber?

How often do you have to scrape the copper off the cathode ?

Any issues with anode or cathode decay ?


Some safety notes:

1) I'd be concerned about the glass vase shattering if the temperature where to change too rapidly. 

2) You should support the cylinder better, it looks fairly easy to topple while sitting on top of the speaker cone.

3) A hose routing the H2 gas outside should be added to protect against accidents during extend operation.

and some comments:

The gold produced would most likely require a second refining.

The liquid around the copper sludge may contain dissolved gold, so the sludge should be rinsed well with water.

The unit would need to be completely disassembled periodically to clean all the build up from the inside.

This is a very good idea Dallas.

Steve


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## OMG

Where did you get a carbon disc like that. I've been working on some electrolysis cells myself. The best thing so far I've found is carbon rods used for gouging (welding supplies). But they degrade. Do you have problems with the carbon degrading too?
Have you considered using a titanium plated disc as your anode?


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## Anonymous

Wow that looks great. 

Wondering if the hydrogen and excess clorine recombine in the gas phase at the top of the unit and go back into solution? they react in light if I remember correctly.

Edit - I want one -


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## Platdigger

Platinum huh.......ok, throw some cat material in it and see what happens..
........
Randy


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## lazersteve

Randy,

I tried a honeycomb in HCl-Cl this past weekend and successfully extracted a very small amount of Pt, the strange thing was there was no Pd in the solution, only Pt.

Steve


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## Platdigger

Gotcha.......


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## Anonymous

what voltage are you running at?


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## Platdigger

James, he stated this...."I use 8-15volts DC and around 10amps to disolve everything including platinum into the solution. "


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## Lou

Interesting.


Knowing the amount of electricity going into it, you can determine exactly how much platinum, gold, or whatever you are oxidizing.

Coloumbmetry.


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## Anonymous

Oh, thanks, missed that. Been working since 4AM today.

Jim


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## dallasgoldbug

Lazersteve, Thanks for the tips. By the way love your site. Its an excellent source of info. Your a wealth of information, thanks for sharing it with us.

I have some additional harvesting techniques Ill post in the appropriate category. Ill try to video them as well and post them to youtube.

To answer your questions:

Q: How much scrap do you process in a single 2 day cycle?
A: That column, if finger are placed neatly can hold 5-8lbs. But Ive made reactors for friends out of plastic 5gallon water bottles (5gallon buckets are easy to use but you cant monitor the reaction as well. Watching it ,through the side of the column is much more enjoyable.

For the water bottles I cut a small hole close to the top enabling easier access to place the disks and your scrap in the jug. Cutting off the top weakens the integrity of the bottle. Ive been trying to bribe the manager of my local home depot to sell me the blue water bottle racks they have in the store. They hold multiple jugs securely which would be perfect to build a wall of reactors in a closet or garage for large scale production. 

In the bottom of the buckets or jugs I place 6 disks (5 surrounding 1 in the center) on a flat piece of copper. Then fill the jug up to the top edge of the disks with RTV. After thats cures, I then drill the hole through the side, (or bottom depending on how they will be using the jug) into one of the disks, for the connection. In the bottom configuration i secure a bolt so the head will make contact when the bottle is placed on a metal rack or plate. By connecting your positive to a plate or metal stand neatens it up a bit, and makes it easier to move the jugs.

Q: What other metals end up in the solution and which end up as a sludge in the bottom?
A: I try to trim my fingers neatly, and wash the final scrap, removing dirt, finger grease and loose particles. I also have some harvesting techniques that ill share later that remove almost all the solder from boards. 

So far I haven't had any metal sludge at the bottom it dissolves everything, finger come out nice and clean. I focus mainly on gold and my scrap is usually gold/coper plated. Like I said platinum is dissolved when the temp is increased. But I rarely process anything other than gold. As for any other metals I cant say, but judging on how it eats the platinum, I would guess other metals would be similar.


Q: How does silver react in the chamber?
A: It gets dissolved as well. 

Q: How often do you have to scrape the copper off the cathode ?


A: I usually scrape the anode 2-3 times a day. The cathode doesn't get anything on it since the current flow from positive to negative. I like to keep an eye on it because, as you mentioned some gold will make its way in with the copper. For this reason the copper scrapings are collected and processed with hcl/peroxide method(as seen on your website)

The copper grows like a fuzzy tree off the electrode. You have to VERY SLOWLY lift the electrode or it will fall back in. For this reason I hang one of those plastic cups with small holes in the bottom of it, under the electrode to catch the falling bits.

Tip:  Be careful not to score the surface of the electrode. keeping it smooth you'll find the copper peals off easily. If there are grooves or scratches the copper has more of a foothold. 

You can distinguish the gold from the copper easily due to its color. But processing it will ensure you get all of it.


Q: Any issues with anode or cathode decay ?


A: Surprisingly, so far there has been very little decay. I estimate running the rig 40 times in the past 6 months and have no noticeable loss. I get the disks for about $10 each. I can get larger disks up to 12" dia and cut to whatever thickness I request. The disk size in the photos are a good size to work with when I build rigs for others.

Q: Have you considered using a titanium plated disc as your anode?
 
A: Yes but would really hate to come home one day to find them dissolved due to loss of power, blown fuse, or power supply failure.

Like I mentioned you should use stainless as well as long as there is current passing through it, it will not be dissolved.

Using a stainless reaction vessel is not a good idea. In addition to the above mentioned problem, the reaction is designed to take place between the electrodes. Since the anode is partially submerged and sealed around the edges to the pvc cap (as seen th the photo) keeps the reaction contained under the liquid. If you just stick the anode into the solution you will be creating a reaction on the surface as well as in the column. As I mentioned, in the beginning I found this out the hard way after everything metal in my kitchen corroded. Plus it was a pain loosing connection due to the fumes were dissolving the wire contact to the anode. Sealing it up as seen in the photo eliminates the problems. Your lungs will thank you later. 
:wink: 

Sorry for the long post. Hope I answered all the questions.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

I find this process extremely promising. I have a good quantity of glass tubes. Some are five (5) feet long, and some are ten (ten) feet long. They range from about 1 to 3" in diameter. They were made for use as laboratory drain pipe for chemicals. I have found I can get rubber end caps with clamps for them that seal liquid tight. I have been doing some different experiments with them. Will try to post a picture soon.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

I couldn't upload the pictures, but you can see them here:

http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20232.jpg

http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20233.jpg

http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20234.jpg

http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20235.jpg

http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20236.jpg

http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20237.jpg


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## Anonymous

Equipment possibility's for the muriatic/chlorine generator. If you live nearby a framing community check with the local Surge dealer. 

The milking parlors use lots of pyrex tubing and inline jars. Maybe pick up a few surplus items or from a refit.

Gill


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## dallasgoldbug

Be careful. Remember you will be creating Hydrogen at the top of the tube. You'll see it fizz like soda as soon as you turn on the power. 

Make sure your connections are secured and given a coat of rtv or the fumes will eat the connection an possible cause an explosion if they spark.

The more power, the more Hydrogen produced. Fortunately Hydrogen is extremely fast moving, and will dissipate rapidly as long as you don't put a cap on it. 

Also, you want to keep the size of the tubes small enough to retrieve your finished scrap. Or allow the bottom to be opened when finished. I'm concerned tubes that size when filled with fluid might snap from the weight.

If you need any help let me know. It really took me about 3 rigs constructions before I had the kinks worked out. 

Tips:
making trays to lower the scrap in and out without having to dump the column is very helpful. 

Put a plastic rod inside the tube, before you fill it with scrap. You'll want to be able to give the contents a little stir every now and then and if you don't stick the rod in before the scrap, it becomes nearly impossible to wiggle it down afterwords.

You could place a Teflon stir magnet in the bottom and use a neodymium mag from a hard drive to drag it around from the out side. Similar to a aquarium cleaning magnet. 

Some plastics are softened and partially dissolved in the solution. I found some older plug connectors the grey, and brown ones turned to mush.


Let us know how the reaction is progressing, good luck.


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## dallasgoldbug

The photos look good. Looks like you have a good amount of juice running through it. What volt/amps is it pulling?

Also you might want to clean up the trimmings a bit by removing the solder. 

An easy way to clean your boards is as follows:

1. USE A FULL SAFETY SHIELD to protect your face from hot flying solder. Put some gloves on, or at least protect the hand that will be holding the board. 

2. Hold one end of the board in one hand with vice grips or heavy pliers.

3. Give the underside a quick roast with map gas. Focus on a area about 5" x 5" moving the flame around until the board just begins to pop. 

----- Don't burn the board - toxic fumes. 
----- Don't overheat and fuse the target element to its under plating. 
----- Remove as much of the surface components yo can prior
to roasting.) 

4. Now that the solder is molten, give the board a whack (solder side down) on a hard object. I use a metal bracket from a old tower case. Place a plastic tray filled with some water (just enough to cover the bottom) in front of this bracket (this is used to catch the hot solder and components that fly off the board)

Only takes a few minutes to remove about 98% of the solder. Even though its not absolutely necessary with my method, it just eliminates one more thing that COULD cause you to pull out your hair when your SMBing.

This allows you to obtain solder free connector/pins from your boards. That is unless you enjoy letting your OCD run wild. :twisted: 

Ill post a video to Youtube sometime this week.


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## The Refiner49er

Very cool, Dallas.

I would like to know where you can get the carbon electrodes.

Collecting the hydrogen gas for other uses is something I am VERY interested in, a volatile gas indeed; but environmentally ideal.

I believe hydrogen as a fuel is destined to replace hydrocarbons- the Japanese are already powering vehicles with it.

It is only a matter of time.

Good luck with your innovations, and welcome to the Forum!


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## dallasgoldbug

If you look at the photo of my column, to the left is a HHO generator. Ive been building Hydrogen cells for the past 2 years. Thats what gave me the Idea for this process. Ill take some photos of my cells and post them later today. 

The original use of the carbon disks was in a HHO cell I made in a large glass flip top jug. I fed a lead down through the out spout that ran out a tee that I sealed the other lead was attached to the metal of the actual vent. This allowed me to run all my power into the cell, while only having to drill one hole in the lid.

A cool design Ive been working on is pressurizing a cell that has a inner cell of hho. Pressurizing the outer chamber with Oxygen is much easier to deal with and the use of cheaper gauges can be used (saving you $$$ on expensive Hydrogen rated valves. Not to mention the headaches trying to make a pressure vessels hydrogen tight.)

The inner vessel is open on the bottom and is partially submerged in water. Pressure is applied to the outer chamber forcing the water up on the HHO gas. 

Easy way to get the force needed to cut without having to produce high quantity. Just fill up the inner chamber (take as long as you want to fill it. Disconnect that cell with a valve, then add the air pressure. Use it until you run out, then recharge again.

I also made a small cutter rig out of baby soda container (the plastic container they heat and suck into a 2ltr soda bottle form). Heres a photo.

Im getting ready to put a unit on my car next week.


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## Irons

The clear plastic soda bottles made from PETE are quite resistant. They don't stand up to con H2SO4 but the heavier ones will take AP, HCl/Cl, and even AR for short-term disposable use. The Chlorine doesn't seem to bother PETE.

They make great little reaction vessels for testing samples. Use the heavier ones. The thin wall ones work but they won't take any accidental pressure spikes like what happens when you inadvertently leave the lid screwed on tight in a hot water bath and go for a break.

Oops.


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## Anonymous

where do you get them?


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## dallasgoldbug

I have a local science supply store here. I guess its time for me to start putting items on my site. I have many different parts, pieces, vessles, and designs for a wide variety of projects. Refining metal, and HHO (Hydrogen Oxygen Cell) ideas and designs. 

I run across all kinds of cool items while Im out hunting for supplies. 

Ill get on it and will have something up by mid next week.


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## Anonymous

do you have the hydrogen and oxygen mixed and under compression in your cell?


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## dallasgoldbug

Yes, but keep in mind when I say under pressure I'm talking far below the 300psi level where they can self ignite. (For reference a typical fire extinguisher is 300psi) 

I have seen designs where the positive electrode and the negative electrode are in separate columns, connected ate the bottom similar to a upside down pitch fork. This is the safest way to produce both. The other thing to watch out for is designs that are using PVC as the container risk explosion due to static discharge.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Here are some more picture links. 

http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20412.jpg
http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20411.jpg
http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20410.jpg
http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20409.jpg
http://deep6burial.com/Ebay%20408.jpg


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Here's what the previous pictures are about. I used silicon glue to attach a glass pipe fitting (it's a Y section, that's all I had) to a slab of graphite. I put a CPU in with Muriatic Acid. I put a carbon arc rod in the top. The graphite is attached to the positive and the carbon rod to the negative. This produces chlorine bubbles on the graphite. 

What is nice about this setup is that I normally have problems when the temperature is in the below freezing range like it is now. Also cold liquid holds more chlorine gas than warm liquid does. Plus, as the HCL evaporates it turns off the system, which I think is O.K because this lets the dissolved chlorine work on the CPU instead of just producing more chlorine constantly to be lost into the air. 

A few times a day you can add some more HCL to restart the cell. I started it just yesterday and this morning all the legs are gone from the chip and the gold plated spots on the top have all the gold gone from them as well. I will test the solution for gold content.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

More pictures.


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## lazersteve

Steve,

I love it!

The slab of graphite to seal the tube is a great idea. 

If you have any more tubing left please PM me about purchasing some.

Thanks,

Steve


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Here's a picture of the test for gold. I put some of the HCL on a piece of filter paper and added a few drops of testing solution. I didn't see much color so I heated it over the stove and then the dark ring appeared. Also, the area inside the ring has a faint purple color that is not easy to see.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

I did another test to verify the previous results. This time I just put the testing solution on the filter paper, but did not first put a drop of the HCL. I did this to see what happens when you heat the test spot with just the testing solution. You can see that the same brown ring appeared, so this is NOT an indication of gold. There is no faint purple stain on this like the other one, so I would conclude that there is dissolved gold in the test sample of HCL.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Now you should be able to see the faint purple stain. I heated the paper more gently, enough to develop the stain, but not form the brown ring.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Here's the CPU. This type of CPU has pins (legs) that go through the entire ceramic body. Notice from the picture that the entire pins are gone leaving a clean hole. The black around the holes is probably silver. One of the "rings" slide off, showing a silver like metal ring still attached to the ceramic.


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## The Refiner49er

I hope this is not a stupid question....

The granite you used for the base, is it a particular type? I was not aware the stone was a conductor.

I can truly appreciate these innovations, as I am an inventor at heart as well.

Keep on, you guys!


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## The Refiner49er

Wanted to edit my last post after submittal, but don't know how.

One question for dallasgoldbug- where I find the carbon discs?

Thanks!


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

The base is graphite, which of course is a conductor since it is carbon. I got it years ago on eBay, it should be available there still.

I just looked, you can get it on eBay. Look up EDM graphite.


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## jimdoc

You can get graphite here;
http://www.graphitestore.com/


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## hungry

NMR,LL

What exactly is EDM graphite?. I have nearly 12# of assorted blocks, slices, plates and square rods of graphite. Alot of it appears to be machined and has a shine to it. Is this the type you are referring to?

ED


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## Platdigger

edit


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## The Refiner49er

Randy-

Wanna sell a couple of pieces of that graphite?

PM me if you do.

I am definitely going to build an electrolytic stripper.

Thanks!

John


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

For what we're doing here the type of graphite probably doesn't matter much. EDM graphite is just graphite used with a Electro Disposition Machine. It's a way of forming three dimensional parts out of a block of metal. It uses brass wire, electricity, and graphite. Someone else can fill in more details if they like.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

This is after just 5 or 6 hours with temperatures at or below freezing outdoors. The stain from the test solution has a strong purple color.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

I have found that the graphite leaks. It acid (or water) will seep through the graphite. Plus, another problem could be that the acid leaking through it will loose the gold that's in solution because carbon will precipitate out gold from solution. So it may not be as simple as just collecting the solution that seeps through the graphite. If we can't figure out a way to stop the leaking, it would be good to save the graphite base to recover the gold that accumulates in it over time. One way to stop the leak could be to encase the bottom and pressurize it just enough to keep the liquid from seeping out. I think it would only need a few pounds of air pressure.


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## The Refiner49er

As I contemplate processing PMs with what I have studied in this forum, it seems to me this type of device is cost effective and efficient.

I intend on fabricating something similar very soon. I am posting some design questions for commentary.

I have worked with glass extensively, and envision a square column made of heavy plate glass, 8" to 10" square and 18" to 22" tall. A frame at top and bottom and sealed well with RTV silicone, a "refiners aquarium" so to say. The base will be graphite, I am thinking about drilling and threading the base for bottom drain(s). Filtration of the solution could be in-line and gravity fed, or pumped; although I have not yet determined the hardware required for this type of filter.

Processing of larger amounts of materials may cause elevated solutions temperatures, and as Irons pointed out, the solubility of chlorine diminishes on increase of temp. Circulation of the solution and cooling may be desirable to maintain an optimal temperature range.

The only significant hazard is the generation of hydrogen gas. A vertical vent pipe would remedy, the rising hydrogen effectively carrying away any process gases along with it.

The power regulation is where I am stuck. Ideally, if the power could be controlled by solution temp, or another process value... the objective is to enable operation without the requirement of constant supervision.

I will post additional info and questions as this materializes.


John


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

If you've been following this thread you will remember that the graphite turned out to be porous enough to allow the acid to seep through it. Todays experiment to solve the problem shows the cell immersed in a bucket of water with the water level in the bucket just slightly higher than the acid level in the cell. This water the water has a higher pressure on the outside of the graphite than the acid in the cell has on the inside (inside of the cell) of the graphite. This water any flow through the graphite will be the outside water jacket flowing to the inside acid. This should keep the acid out of the graphite where the gold could precipitate inside the block of graphite by coming in contact with carbon.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

The blotter on the left shows the results after adding one Pentium Pro CPU in the cell for a couple of hours.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Another spot test for gold. The Pentium Pro CPU is done.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

It looks like some iron when through the graphite block (membrane) and ended up in the solution in the bucket. It looks like rust floating around on the bottom.


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## OMG

Someone use something titanium or titanium plated instead of carbon and see how that works.
It will lower the resistance, and won't leak. I'm interested to know if/how fast it degrades.
Then maybe I'll find some for my setup.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Titanium Corrosion

Titanium is the fourth most abundant metallic element in the earth's crust. It occurs chiefly as an oxide ore. The commercially important forms are rutile (titanium dioxide) and ilmeite (titanium-iron oxide), the former being richest in titanium content. Metallic titanium was first isolated in impure form in 1887 and with higher purity in 1910. However, it was not until the 1950's that it began to come into use as a structural material. This was initially stimulated by aircraft applications. A modern and comprehensive document on the subject is the second edition of the classic CORROSION BASICS textbook.

Although the aerospace industry still provides the major market, titanium and titanium alloys are finding increasingly widespread use in other industries due to their many desirable properties. Titanium is a unique material, as strong as steel with less than 60% of its density but with excellent corrosion resistance. Traditional applications are in the aerospace and chemical industries. More recently, especially as the cost of titanium has fallen significantly, the alloys are finding greater use in other industry sectors, such as offshore.

Titanium is a very reactive metal that shows remarkable corrosion resistance in oxidizing acid environments by virtue of a passive oxide film. Following its commercial introduction in the 1950's, titanium has become an established corrosion resistant material. In the chemical industry, the grade most used is commercial-purity titanium. Like stainless steels, it is dependent upon an oxide film for its corrosion resistance. Therefore, it performs best in oxidizing media such as hot nitric acid. The oxide film formed on titanium is more protective than that on stainless steel, and it often performs well in media that cause pitting and crevice corrosion in the latter (e.g., seawater, wet chlorine, organic chlorides). While titanium is resistant to these media, it is not immune and can be susceptible to pitting and crevice attack at elevated temperatures. It is, for example, not immune to seawater corrosion if the temperature is greater than about 110oC.

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/corrtitanium.htm


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## OMG

So will a titanium anode give off chlorine gas, or will it just form titanium chloride instead?


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

Titanium is resistant to dilute sulfuric and hydrochloric acid, along with chlorine gas, chloride solutions, and most organic acids.


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## Anonymous

I would resaw the carbon or get thinner sheets and saturate them with
expoxy to seal it then glue that to a solid base to support it.


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## Platdigger

But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the conductive base?

I mean one of the great things about the carbon base is that the conection (electrically) can be made outside of the container.

Wouldn't this insulate the thinner piece of carbon electrically?
Randy


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## Anonymous

this would just fill in the spaces were the fluid is leaking through so the carbon would still be conductive, ie saturate from the nonworking surface
leaving the surface that contacts the hcl exposed. connections would still be the same.

I wonder if all of the carbon is porus, I could see me making a membrane cell to produce nitric by putting a layer of it between 2 electrodes of for example 5 volts then charge the plate with a lesser voltage like 1.5 to make the membrane to seperate the ions.

that is unless nitric atacks carbon which with my luck it will do vigorusly. :roll:


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

I'm testing out an entirely different idea for the plate. Top secret until I get results. Hopefully that will be tomorrow. I glued it up today, it will be ready for testing tomorrow.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery

I tried the experiment with another metal alloy for the anode, but it didn't work, I think it formed an non-conductive film on the surface.


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## OMG

I am testing a similar setup, except the material I am processing is black sand concentrates. I have a two cell setup, one half is the dissolving area, and the other half is the precipitating area. So my dissolving column is filled with the concentrates, HCl, H2O2, and salt water. The bottom of the column is a clay pot.
The precipitating area is filled with previously dissolved metals.
So the chlorine is removed from the dissolved metals in the precipitating area, and ends up bubbling at the anode in the dissolving area (the clay pot allows the Cl to pass). Essentially reusing the chlorine.
I am still in the testing phase, but when its complete I think it should work well.
To complete it fully, I will need to use a mercury cathode so that when the metals are pulled out of solution, the iron will not amalgamate, but everything else should. And since that majority of the metal dissolved will be iron, I think a mercury cathode would be the best bet to separate it out.
I don't like the idea of having to retort mercury to recover the values, so if anyone has a suggestion that would allow me to avoid it, please let me know.
I'll take some pics and post them when I get all the leaks sealed tomorrow.
I would also prefer a titanium anode, but I don't even know where to look for a plate of titanium.


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## The Refiner49er

OMG-

The cheapest place to get a piece of titanium is a metal recycler. They will usually sell as well as buy. I do business with a large recycler in Portland; if you can't locate what you need, let me know.

Your approach on recycling the chlorine is interesting. I plan on refining concentrates too, and am working on a design for an electrolytic column.

I'm not a chemist, but perhaps a strong magnet could capture the iron as it comes out of solution?

Good luck with your innovations!

When you get pics of this device, start a new thread!


John


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## OMG

Well, I had to rebuild. The carbon electrode degraded to dust pretty much. Now I'm trying a bunch of carpenters pencils leads to see how well they hold up. It's drying right now. Next weekend I'll go into town and try to get some titanium for the electrode.
honemaster, the particles of iron are so small that magnets don't exert enough force to pull them through the water.


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## dallasgoldbug

Hello all,
Sorry Ive been out of town taking care of a family emergency. Back now and ramping back up. 


My final design came after about 10 prototypes mainly working out the leak, corrosion, and safety issues. I also experimented with different electrode material as well. I also build Hydrogen fuel cells and HHO cutting rigs, using stainless electrodes. Ill post photos of my latest unit if your interested. Im in the process of patenting the electrode design. You would be surprised how much I leveraged from my HHO cell designs.


Anyway back to the topic:
The unit you built reminds me of a past unit I built. Your design will work, but there are problems you will eventually run into.

1. If you look at the photo of my top anode, you will see it is totally sealed on the sides with RTV. The connection to the carbon is made with a stainless rod that runs down into the carbon disk through the top PCV cap.

The point of contact is where you will run into problems. Any metal/wire at the point of contact on the carbon will corrode quickly and eventually create an open if it is not sealed from the fumes. 

The carbon is sealed at the sides and the column is filled up to and past the side carbon seal. At no point on the outside of the PVC cap can the carbon break the surface of the acid. This is very important. You want to keep the chlorine under the top surface of the acid. Keeping the carbon submerged will produce chlorine up to where you have it sealed off with RTV, therefor only producing chlorine up to that point, keeping it contained under the top surface.

If you just stick the anode into the solution you will allow the reaction to take place at the surface of the acid allowing corrosive fumes to escape. You will corrode everything around you thats metal, including your air conditioning vents. If your in a barn or shed, things will start falling off the walls due to the nail corroding through. Trust me on this one, Im still dealing with damage to my air vents.

2. Your design using the carbon as the entire bottom plate was the first design I tried. As you found out the carbon is porous and the acid will eventually find its way through. If you want to continue that design you may want to grab some paraffin wax at your local hobby shop. I used it for a while to quickly patch leaks. It works as long as your temp doesn't melt it. 

Wax was safe to use due to it wont get dissolved into your solution.

Always put your unit in a larger container. This will allow you to contain leaks that may occur when your not around.

3. The carbon disks Im using are about 1" thick and will last about 4 months running 24/7.

The anode in my photo is actually 2 stacked on top of each other.

4. Using PVC as the reactor container, will eventually get brittle. Im finding the best is still glass, as if flexes with the heat. RTV makes an excellent seal when you use glass and you'll run into less problems.

5. You must use RTV or curable silicone. Epoxy, glue, liquid weld, etc. will be devolved, or will eventually leak.

6. I even tried running a coted wire designed to be submerged in solvents (its used primarily in the oil and gas industry) but the solution got into it at the point of contact to the cathode. IF this happens the current WILL NOT continue through the cathode. It will usually cause an open, and is a real pain to replace mid reaction. Do yourself a favor and buy a $10 glass drill bit and a glass vase/large pickle jar/glass 5gal water bottle, and slowly drill the small hole in the side/bottom for a wire to the carbon.

The best way is to put a 1/2" of rtv in the bottom of your container.

Let it cure.

Then place your carbon flat on top of the cured rtv.

Fill the remaining space around the carbon disk.

Let it cure.

After everything is cured, THEN drill the small hole in the side of the glass passing through the RTV, and straight into the disk (I go about 1" in)

Slide a wire/piece of wire hanger into the drilled hole (making sure to make a good connection to the disk)

Turn the container on the side and seal up the connection with some more RTV.

Your then good to go.


I will be selling the carbon disks on my website. I will have them posted this week. If I have the permission from this sites moderator I will post the URL.

I will be selling the 4"x1" disks shown, as well as larger 12"x1" ones.

Ill also post more detailed photos of my rigs if your interested. If you want particular photos just let me know.


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## dallasgoldbug

Hello Honemaster,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your earlier post.

As for cooling your column:
What I used when developing the cell was a variable dc power supply with a resistor inline along with two multimeter's. One for volts and other for amps. You want low volts hight amps for the best production. 

Monitoring the meters will tell you if there is an open at your cathode, very helpful. You can also put a automotive light in the circuit, that will turn off if the circuit becomes open. I got tired of getting up and looking at the meters constantly. Just glancing occasionally to see if the light was on was much easier. 

One thing you will notice is the amps will slowly increase over time. But this can be limited with putting something like the light in the circuit. Small neons work well to, just make sure you look at the power rating on the light so you don't blow it. Putting inline fuses as limiters are also a good idea JUST IN CASE it gets accidentally out of hand.

Yes Hydrogen is a problem. 

A word of advise: 
Always remember to turn the power off before removing the top anode. 

If you don't you risk creating an arc as it lifts out of the liquid. That's all you need to ignite the gas. Keeping the column as full as possible helps to keep the hydrogen from getting trapped under the cap. 

In the beginning I put a computer fan mounted about 5" away from the top of the column blowing air across the opening. Make sure its a magnet motor with no brushes that could ignite the gas. 


Cooling methods:

I experimented with several cooling methods. Ive used aluminum heat syncs with server fans attached.

Next I used a second outer container with a circulating water ice bath.

Ive also experimented with mineral oil due to its non conductive characteristics.

Each worked well. Another method is to get an old refrigerator/small office refrigerator and put the entire unit inside. This is also a way to control the fumes by cutting a vent hole in the top and forcing the fumes out by fan.

lately ive been playing with thin aquarium tubing wrapped around the outside in a tight spiral from bottom to top. Pump ice water through it from an ice chest containing a pond pump.

An idea I haven't tried yet is to wrap it on the inside of the column. I would think this would effectively cool the liquid.

Look at water cooling systems for computers, you will find usable inexpensive products for temperature monitoring. 

Creating a small app is something Ive been working on. It can monitor a temperature sensor powered through a USB port, and be set to alarm if the unit gets to a set temp. Combine that with an email or text message notification sent to your cell phone, could allow the user to remotely shut down the entire rig. Or if your really a tech geek like myself, set up a web cam to monitor it with a pda phone. The possibilities are endless.

:shock: 

Im working on a new rig thats sealed at the top with the gas venting out a hose that passes through a bubbler I made out of a plastic water bottle. 

This can be combined with an active charcoal filter to further filter the corrosive fumes. Ill post photos shortly. 


I can be contacted if anyone has questions or help with their rigs.

Thanks Again
DallasGoldBug :wink:


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## dallasgoldbug

Here is a quick sketch, sorry scanner is out.


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## dallasgoldbug

:!: Another thing to keep in mind with your columns. You want the cathode as big as possible. The larger (more surface area) the better. Scoring the surface of it by scraping it on concrete is one way, another is to drill small holes or cut small grooves creating more surface area. Its not necessary especially if your running low on carbon. 

:!: Tip: Keep a mason jar handy to keep broken or small pieces of carbon. You can use them to make an electrode by layering the bottom of a column with RTV and dropping the pieces in covering the bottom. Make sure they touch each other and the piece you have connected to the power. 

:!: Tip: I mentioned in prior posts about keeping your anode as smooth as possible. A smooth surface makes it much easier to remove the copper that plates to it. I Use a razor blade to lift the edge of the copper. It usually peals off in one piece. If the surface is rough the copper has more of a foothold to the carbon and is more difficult to remove.

DallasGoldBug


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## dallasgoldbug

http://www.temperaturealert.com/product_p/tm-std30.htm

Check this out. Just stick it inside a plastic bag or coat it with silicone. Attach it to a usb extension cable and drop it in the reactor.

Logs it, sends you alerts when it hits target temp. 

Not that expensive either.

I wonder if I can get an eval unit from them :wink:


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## Harold_V

dallasgoldbug said:


> I will be selling the carbon disks on my website. I will have them posted this week. If I have the permission from this sites moderator I will post the URL.



Our leader has provided a forum for that very purpose. Please post your link and a description in the Sale or Trade forum. 

You might also consider including the link to your web site in your sig line. 

Harold


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## markqf1

Well it's gotta be somewhere.

Mark


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## Arcani

> Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: Computer tempiture sensor
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> http://www.temperaturealert.co.....-std30.htm
> 
> Check this out. Just stick it inside a plastic bag or coat it with silicone. Attach it to a usb extension cable and drop it in the reactor.




Sweet link. Your tips have been great help to me and my playing with Saltwater/H202 gold stripping cell.
Also been playing with HHO tech and was hoping u could start a thread on that topic here.
:lol:


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## Pawnbroker Bob

Great stuff Dallas!

I have been watching this thread with great interest. I am going to build one of these for myself. 

A buddy of mine is a master fabricator, I was talking with him last night and asked him if he had any scrap Ti lying around. Yes he does. =)

My brain went to work. I am shopping for the proper glass vessel and am planning a round glass tube with a round Ti plate cathode, On the underside of the plate I am going to heliarc some threaded Ti to attach a lead through the bottom of the glass vessel. All rtv'd in. Mounted to a base of plexiglass. 

I had a great idea. For the anode I am going to rollout and heliarc some Ti to make a cup about the size of a large tuna can but 4in tall. My idea is that with a little inert ballast in the can or by the weight of the lead rod the cathode will float on the acid eliminating the need to constantaly monitor for evaporation. 

What do you guys think?

Pawnbroker Bob


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## dallasgoldbug

HHO technology should be look at closely by the refining community. 
It has many advantages that I would love to discuss.
Unfortunately I'm in the patent process stage and have to restrain my excitement.

Ive been working for many years on a prototype, and finally got everything to the point where its producing 2-3ltr of gas per/min all from a 12v motorcycle bat. The entire rig is about 1.5' tall. Its the unit I'm holding in the photo. My patent is not on the actual cell itself, thats been covered extensively. My work focuses on efficient electrode design.

Man, Im dying to post a video to youtube.

While I'm waiting, Im going to publish it through www.ip.com

If anyone has something they need to protect, but cant afford the patent, it's a great start. They provide a digital footprint establishing a date of submission that stands up in court, and best of all its only $200. 
Ive always been hesitant to reveal my goods, even with signed NDA in hand. But its almost impossible not too when your trying to raise expansion capital from investors.


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## lazersteve

Dallas,

I'm very interested in the HHO technology. I'll try to find some time to check out your links.

Steve


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## draftinu

I too am impressed with this system. Good luck with the finishing details! Tim


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## markqf1

Very impressive!
Keep us up to date.

Thx,
Mark


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## dallasgoldbug

Was on a shopping spree yesterday at FRY's. Stumbled across something that I think will work for a temp monitor. Its http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_contents.php?pno=fp52&area=usa

It is a stand alone unit for monitoring your computer temp. 0 ~100°C is its range and is programmable to trigger when it hits certain temp. LED display with 4 temperature sensors. I got it for $32.00, they had another model that had higher range but it was $50. They both run buy themselves without the need of a computer, they just need power. The alarm triggers, I'm sure can be run to whatever you want. Of the top of my head I was thinking connecting to an alarm (radioshack) that could cut the power.


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## The Refiner49er

DGB-

I am very interested in your work with hydrogen production. I have a couple of ideas on the back burner regarding automation of capture, separation and storage. I will be in contact with you when I have more time.

In regards to your alarm and temp sensor controls, there are many cost effective products available. If you have selected a sensor relay, it can be coupled to one or more NO/NC modular relays to switch process power or actuate alarms. I have a pile of these from disassembling large copy machines; most are 24VDC on the control side and main relay is good for AC/DC 15 amp. If you need any, let me know and I'll send you some.

Talk to you soon.

John


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## dallasgoldbug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRayrmcc8nI

Sorry I havent been visiting here as much. I plan to get back in gear shortly.
But im getting massive response to my HHO cell on youtube. just search for dallasgoldbug


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## Arcani

http://www.theorionproject.org/en/hydroxy.html

http://www.theorionproject.org/en/documents/KellyAndBoyce.pdf


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## dallasgoldbug

I got some of the big disks in this week. They are 10 5/8 x 5/8. And are the best carbon Ive seen. 

This size plate can endure enourmous amounts of current. Its larg enough to be used in a 55gal drum container. The Blue chemical drums work the best. Put one at the bottom and attach one with a spacer behind it (so when the lid id on it touched the electrolyte) from the lid. Just watch the hydrogen..BOOM

Also, the people from [email protected] sent me a evaluation unit of their temiture monitoring device this week.

Thanks guys! I will be extending the chip from the unit with leads that can be mounted inside the cell. The unit plugs into the USB port and the program that it runs will monitor the temp and send notices via email when things get out of hand. It can even shut the rig down. Ill be documenting the mod to their product for use in our cells. And will post it with a review asap.


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## Arcani

Hey dallas, whats up, 
How do u make the carbon disks? I am 316 km's into a tank of gas with a HHO cell assist, used SS plates ,can't really trust the fuel gauge, will have to wait till empty to see if there is any improvement with fuel efficiency. Also getting ready to build a cutting rig(loved your video on that btw) At what voltage do the carbon electrodes start to become preferable? or is it at any voltage?

Did u check out The Orion Project link in my last post? they have a lot of info on HHO there under Research


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## Froggy

Great Dallas! your feeding into my hypomania with another interesting sidetracked project. The internet is a hypomaniacs dream that just keeps going. and going.. :shock: someday I will get to sleep,, Frog


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## dallasgoldbug

Tested Twister HHO cell on 04 2500 Dodge Ram straight 6 .

Filled tank (all the way till splashed out)
Drive as far as I could (highway, till meter was just below 3/4)

Filled back up (till splash) took 14 gallons
Miles traveled 600

600/14 = +42MPG 

Test 2
Same test but this time while towing 10K lbs (travel trailer w/razor ATV inside)

Usually get 8-10mpg on good day. With single Twister HHO cell (15cups) got 22mpg. (highway)

Next test Class A Lux RV Cummins straight 10 will let you know when data is ready.


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## Scott2357

That's great. Welcome back, I wondered where you went to. Keep us posted.


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## dallasgoldbug

I was letting those people who were copying my design and selling it on ebay distract me. Just going to let Lawyer handle it, and focus on work.

Once I release the new cell Ill be able to speak more about new advances Ive been testing.

Thanks for looking out for me.  

DallasGB


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## dallasgoldbug

I was letting those people who were copying my design and selling it on ebay distract me. Just going to let Lawyer handle it, and focus on work.

Once I release the new cell Ill be able to speak more about new advances Ive been testing.

Thanks for looking out for me.  

DallasGB


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## Palladium

:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1746&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## Anonymous

Hi dallas
Gust wanted to wish you luck dealing with the people selling your idea.

Jim


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## jsargent

Marvelous work here DGB! If electrochlorine leaching will work on the ore I'm processing it will save me a lot of money by eleminating several reagents. Have you tested the ORP in an active cell? My current process uses sodium bromide and sodium chloride as halogen sources, monopersulfate to maintain a high ORP and HCL to lower the pH to <3.4. If I can eliminate the bromide and monopersulfate it will cut my reagent cost by 70%.


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## Platinum

Haven't heard from Dallas in awhile.


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## dallasgoldbug

The Refiner49er said:


> Wanted to edit my last post after submittal, but don't know how.
> 
> One question for dallasgoldbug- where I find the carbon discs?
> 
> Thanks!



I found them on ebay. search for carbon graphite, and you'll find several. I have found really good auctions that have sold them per 5-10lb lots. Then just cut them to whatever size you want. A drill press and a circular bit from Home depot will give you nice pieces that will fit to whatever cir size you want.

DallasGB


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## dallasgoldbug

james122964 said:


> Hi dallas
> Gust wanted to wish you luck dealing with the people selling your idea.
> 
> Jim




Thanks, but I'm not selling anything. I give the info for free. I try to answer all questions that are sent to me, but have been side tracked by dealing with a corrupt business partner that was trying to do everything to stop my Hydrogen Fuel Cell project. But he's now been dealt with and, I made a promise to teach as many people as I can for free to counter him and the big Oil and Gas Corps attempts to stop me. They cant stop someone who doesn't play by their rules governed by profit.

You can contact me through this site or on youtube.

Also thanks for all the great work you have all been posting. Good to see creative minds taking ideas to the next level.


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## Palladium

Glad to see you back Dallas. Keep us updated.


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## dallasgoldbug

Was checking back in, haven't seen any action on this post. Anyone out there still playing with this method?

Just an update:
For those of you looking for big containers to work with, an inverted 5gal water jug works well and the connection to the bottom cathode is easy to seal up by potting the connection out through the funnel like inverted spout. The jug can be sliced open around the bottom (now top) and the piece you cut off can be inverted and pushed back into place after your electrode is fixed to it. The inverted piece makes a nice seal but a little RTV doesn't hurt. Just remember to fix an exhaust tube to the top and if you want run it past the curve in the bottom of your crapper. Or vent it into another container filled with water and bubble it through that water then cap that container off with a nice carbon filter (fish aquarium supply have nice solutions already to go. Active carbon is good absorber of nasties. (every so often in your layered carbon filter I would place a penny along the side so you can see it through whatever column your filter is in. This way you can make sure your getting all the harmful gasses in case you nose cant detect trace amounts that are still harmful to breath and will corrode your shop. The pennies or copper wire run up the side, will show reactions to any fumes that managed to remain.

Hope your stockpiling the scrap, its fixin' to get expensive!

DallasGoldBug
The Conceptual Tyrannosaurus http://wellaware1.com/blog or on http://youtube.com/dallasgoldbug


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