# ***** The Platinumill Exposed and on Trial *****



## hvyshakes1

Just got a platinumill today. Will let everyone know the results soon.


----------



## aflacglobal

Now that is cool.

Pics would be great.


----------



## Froggy

Hi guys, (new to the forum) I have been looking at one for myself. I called the guy and his prices have gone up considerably since his first post, i'm working on getting a steady supply of cats before I start to bargain ( beat him down) for a machine. I will be looking forward to your assesment of this,, P.s if you dont mind, what was the out the door cost? Thx frog


----------



## Froggy

I wonder if your cats in cali. have a higher amount of metals in them? due to higher standards.


----------



## hvyshakes1

I will let everyone here know the results i get from the platinumill. Since i just took a big leap of faith and spent the 7200 bucks for this machine. I will start the leaching probably this week or next.


----------



## Froggy

I'm thinking of spending a few days up there at his operation in Ohio. I think he is making more money processing converters, I dont think he wants to take the time to make these for other people , thus the price increase. I'm excited to hear how your system works out for you. In what ways are you obtaining converters? Frog


----------



## hvyshakes1

iam actually a partner in a car recycling business so we get the cats free and then sell the car to a pick n pull lot for parts it works out great i cant wait to tell you guys the results on this platinumill. I hope they are good because i forked over the money for it and it seems nobody else has really had the courage to. But i did spend at least 13 hrs total with the seller on the phone and asked a series of questions before i bought the machine and also had a clause put in the purchase agreement he makes you sign stating that if the machine does not prove its results i can get a refund less the shipping charges. I hope i can get started before the new year and let everyone know soon. ill keep you guys posted on the outcome dont worry if this platinumill is what it is marketed to be than my friends do not look any further and buy one but just hold on for my opinion first.


----------



## Anonymous

Would you not get a better economical return just listing cats on Ebay or Cat max without having that kind of cash tied up in equipment and chemical costs? One would think that there can't be much more than 50 bucks in one on average. Makes a guy wonder though if thats the case how they can afford to buy them at those prices and why are the aftermarket units less desirable?


----------



## Froggy

Cats are almost worthless, send them to me.. har, har :lol: :lol:


----------



## hvyshakes1

froggy you got he right idea but seriously shhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## lazersteve

The average yields from cats that I've read about is between 2-4 grams of PGMs (Pt, Pd, Rh) per cat. 

I'll have some real yield numbers to post very soon.

Of course the various types of cats have different yield values.

If you figure the *maximum estimated* yield value in Pt of six units you have:

6 x 4 = 24 grams 

1512 / 31.1 = $48.62 per gram @ todays Pt spot.

24 x $48.62 = $1166.88

To get an estimated value per cat you can divide the dollar amount by the number of cats:

$116.88 / 6 = $194.48 per cat.

This figure is in line with the current average cost of new cats. I just had to replace the cat on my car last month and the new cat cost me $204 total. 

Old worn out cats most likely won't yield the estimated *maximum* so adjust your figures accordingly.

Steve


----------



## Froggy

Lazersteve, dont forget the rhodium and the palladium, even though small amounts, it still adds up to big $$, new cats (aftermarket) cats have very, very , very little amounts, thus the cheap price compared to O.E.M ....The exact amounts per style of cats are kind of a trade secret by those who process them. As long as the honey cmb iside is fully intact, you should get full value of of it. The older bead style cats lost alot of material, blowing out into the road, so if you see a guy sweeping the busy intersections here in Houston, you might know what I'm up too.


----------



## lazersteve

froggy said:


> The exact amounts per style of cats are kind of a trade secret by those who process them.



I'm not of the same mindset with my yield data. I'll gladly post any yield information I obtain on cats.

I think the difference in the cost of OEM vs aftermarket is not due to PGM content but instead due to manufacturers markup. 

The EPA has specific emission control guidelines for the manufacturers of cats (as of Jan 1, 1988) that must be followed for the cat to meet the required emission control standards in the US. These standards require a specific level of catalytic activity from the converter which translates to PGM content in the cat. The shortcomings of the aftermarket cat are noticed when they are installed on an incompatible vehicle type.

If what you are saying is true, either the aftermarket cats are not as effective at controlling these emissions or that the OEM units are made to exceed the standards.

I think the main difference in the OEM vs aftermarket cats is vehicle compatibility. Since OEMs are made to fit a variety of vehicles the performance of the cat may be reduced for some vehicle types as compared to the OEM conterpart.

Here's an EPA document that reinforces my position:

OEM vs Aftermarket Cats

and a more recent EPA web site on OEM vs aftermarket cats:

Updated aftermarket cat info

Here's a verbatim quote from the above website:



EPA Document said:


> Abstract: The aftermarket catalytic converter policy allows
> aftermarket automobile catalytic converter manufacturers and
> reconditioners to compete with the automobile manufacturers for the
> aftermarket catalytic converter replacement market. Without this policy,
> it would be illegal to sell or install aftermarket catalytic
> converters that do not conform exactly to the automobile manufacturers'
> original equipment (OE) versions of these parts.



I have highlighted some important text.

This brings up a good experiment for me to run. I'll compare the PGM yields from a single OEM cat to a single aftermarket cat and post the results in due time.


Steve


----------



## lazersteve

All,

Here's another document I found on Pt yields from cats:

Platinum Flow Report

I have credited the original author on the first page of the pdf file. 

The third page specifically states:



Pt_Flow Document said:


> They are constructed by applying a film of platinum, palladium and ruthenium on a ceramic “monolith”. It is estimated that the average catalytic converter on the market contains 1.5 g of PGM (USGS, 1998). The proportion of the three metals varies considerably.



This figure is even less than what I had previously read elsewhere.

The remainder of the linked document has some great information in it about PGM production and some really good references.

Steve


----------



## lazersteve

Here's an excerpt from a document referenced in my previous post:

USGS Pt Info

Page 5 gives specific references to cat yields of PGMs with ratios.

This is a realy good document, everyone interested in cats should read it.

Steve


----------



## jimdoc

The amount of PGM's and which ones in each converter
depends on a few things. 1-What year, some years will
be more palladium in the mix because of the price or
availability of platinum. 2- What size engine the converter
was designed for, high performance or larger engines
need more area and PGM content. 3-Foreign converters
seem to be higher in PGM, maybe so they pass emissions
in whatever country they end up in, or for the fact that they
seem to care about their cars lasting longer and build them
better. I still love old American Iron, but we just don't build
them like that anymore. Jim


----------



## Froggy

Steve, YOU ROCK! You bet I sure would be interested in more specific testing outcomes than a list of standards!! THe cat buyers only give about $10 bucks for an aftermarket cat vs 50-130 for OEM, IMPORTANT:are the aftermarkets even being tested for PGM content? I doubt it considering our kids are licking lead paint, and playing with date rape drugs!!! These cat buyers would not be giving these prices if they awere not making $$, there has to be more PGM's than what page 5 of that one article stated. Hopefully we will soon find out, here check out this site www.catmax.net , a nifty little site....


----------



## Froggy

A little off topic, but, in some parts they dont even check the levels coming out of your car during an inspection. I was chatting with my local inspection station guy and he told me cars that are tuned correctly (good plugs, spark, timing etc) will pass emissions without a cat, but will fail inspection because they are missing. So really a cat helps clean up exhaust when a car is running poorly and would otherwise fail emmisions... Furthermore: Do the emmisions savings from a cat system far outweigh a freeflowing exhaust without restrictions? What about all the extra fuel needed for a restricted vehicle vs a free flowing correctly tuned vehicle? Theres an argument to be made there, but thats for another Forum... Frog


----------



## heirloomreplacement

Not on topic> But 
the reaason they install cat's on cars is not to clean up the exaust during driving> it's the idle and very low speed that put out such poor exaust 

Many don't know this but your Cat doesn't even start working unitil after at least 15 minutes of driving> it has to reach temp 
( around 800 Deg) to work at full load
on a cat montor test in a newer car one would have to drive 11 miles at set speeds to get the cat working good enough to test it for function

The biggest reason the cat is there is Auto makers have no problem making a engine go fast for small size > but to acomplish that they have very poor idle emmisions

On a personal note > I have run many of my own trucks with a gutted Cat and pass emissions every time> I gut it to increase the pulling power of the truck,
these trucks run all highway and spend no time in town so it uses less fuel to pull the same load
so that means you right the cat does make the average car consume more fuel> but its a trade off for cleaner in town emmisions.

> for the record> I am still a lic. Master tech specializing in electronics automotive.

But I no longer work in the field


----------



## Froggy

To go further off the path of this thread, as far as emissions at idle, I dont understand why cars dont use the same system as gas golf carts (motor shuts off at idle), your belt systems can be run off electric? It would save tons and tons of fuel, emissions pollution etc... I will look into your temp. at which cats start to work, 1800 degrees seems like it would melt your cat and burn your car up!! Well, nuff' that.. cant wait for some test results!!!


----------



## heirloomreplacement

Soory Froggy
You are correct 1800 Deg was My typo error it starts working at Much lower 375 deg or so and runs up to around 800 deg at temp under Max work load>
when over worked it does melt down thats why we will see you in a busy intersection looking for spent cat guts> LOL

a engine with 1 cyl misfiring will eat up a CAT in less than an oil change interval because of overworking it and the higher temp the Cat will reach trying to compensate.

as for the cars that shut off> they are called Hybreds and the ford escape to mention just one does exactly that> it runs on electric power using a gas engine as a generator and the engine does shut off at stops and low speeds> many of the hybred cars do the same thing.

In a nutshell do you really thing we couldn't have built these ages ago? 

back in the mid 70's Volvo had a gas engine that turned 42+mpg
it was on the market a wopping year> and somehow a car that ran great with super gas milage just for no reason stopped being made?

I tend to wonder how much the oil companies paid Volvo to take that engine out of it's line up?

enough out of me on car stuff> LOL


----------



## Froggy

My Bad, I dont shop for new cars. But those cats honeycombs sure look restictive, especially if they get clogged up with oil, gunk.... guess thats when they start to break up and get blown out, Hmm, mabey I should start beating on mufflers to see if they have any material? HMM. Hmmm...


----------



## kevin68311

I dont have the money for a platinumill,but I am working on putting together a 5gallon unit like the one on the actionmining site.I work in a salvage yard and can get cats.I am glad somebody is going to test the platinumill,cant wait for results


----------



## aflacglobal

Dude, that frog is looking at me. 

Or is heeeeeee :shock: 

   

Welcome to the forum guys. :wink:


----------



## Froggy

Glendale Watkins "How I buy 20 cats a day" "make $ buying cats" was a rip for me. The E book wants you to buy a 12.99 book which has sparse info, the it goes into buying the "real secrets" $100 bucks, what a rip, oh well there went 13 bucks , I'm not putting out the other $$$, did anyone else? Well, after reviewing the info several times, I did pick up my $$'s worth especially the free additional info that was sent on other parts that are worth $$ on a scrap car..


----------



## Froggy

Cat guts found on the side of the road, sounds funny, but wouldnt the muffler catch large chunks of broken up honeycomb? mabey, time to go round to the muffler shops shaking a few mufflers??????? Hmm...hmmm :lol:


----------



## Platdigger

I have seen it, some times chunks do end up in the muffler.
Randy


----------



## Froggy

Think I will rent a bee outfit, go into muffler shop and start shakin'!!!


----------



## Froggy

Wow, the prices on ebay for scrap cats is crazy!!! Something we are missing here,those prices reflect something in there has more than just a couple of grams of pt's etc... any news heavyshakes or kevin?????


----------



## jimdoc

A gram of platinum is close to $50 now.
Also you have the rhodium.


----------



## Froggy

Bought my first batch of converters today ( 10 for 150$$), going to flip them/ wish I had a platnim mill or could get the info to make one myself, kevin have you got the 5 gal one going yet? I hate to sell my cats to a middle man or ebay them.... Frog


----------



## loco

against some recommendations I think instead of building one I am going to buy at least my first unit. I should be purchasing a system III by months end. since temp. and venting fumes are important I want to do my processing outside so I may just have the unit collecting dust until I can get more than a couple decent days of warmer weather. heck it's been 50+ last 2 days here. unless I find a better method between now and then.

-Rich


----------



## Froggy

Could you give a link for the system III plz, I think I found the site but did not see a system III complete unit with price , Thx Frog found it!!! just had to go to the index,,,,,,,,,,, these "systems" look really low buck, suppose they are trying to get you for the fancy cd that tells you how to use it........ Hmmm I am thinking of putting together one of these myself. then bug you guys how to use it! haaa...


----------



## loco

oh I agree it looks "low buck" but I can't say I know for sure how the paddle is joined the shaft to the blade, and with it being in acid it's pretty safe to say it's not a standard screw. and the motor they use to aggitate may be fun to find and setup. other than that it's all acids, quartz heater, filter bag, anode and cathode. so you could always churn by hand. all this in consideration is why I think I'll buy my first unit. believe me the building one does seem more appealing but there is something to be said for instant gratification ( LOL in the words of my wife).


----------



## Froggy

Instant gratification gave me 6 kids!!!! I was thinking of building one of the big boys!! I am in the process of getting a route together to get cat's 10-15 a day should do, Then BAM! Process them. If I can get a good idea of what cats are worth with me processing them, then I will start buying them from guys that sell them, that would keep me from running around like a crack head bugging people for the the cats, one small step at a time.....


----------



## Froggy

newest info on platinumill, they have terrible feedback from customers etc, etc,, and goldsilverpro has given the best way to get the most out of your converter PGM's see this thread- http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1479


----------



## hvyshakes1

You all want the truth with the platinumill? Iam probably the only one on this forum who actually sacked up and bought one! I ran two tests to date. The first test was lousy. I ran half a bucket of crushed material and the other half pulverized to a fine powder. The machine clogged on the first run. The battery charger he provided was a cheap 10 amp car battery charger that clicked on and off during the cycle and was worthless for this process and i didnt have any recovery except for 1.45 grams of sticky resin that stuck to the anodes. Second test I ran same problem with clogging. You need to get yourself a real power supply that has a continuous output so you dont run into these problems(that was $200 bucks later) then another problem i ran into was how do i keep the solution at 120 degrees? Nothing is provided with this machine so i had to buy quartz heaters from caswell (ceramic quartz heaters 15.99 a piece i bought 3) these are awesome and i am going to run my last batch of material fully ready this time with everything ironed out so i can say or the platinumill propieter Rob Diller cant say well you didnt do this right and this, etc. etc. You need quartz ceramic heaters guys you cant stick anything that is metal in the solution or it will plate out with the pgms. They come with a seperate thermo control unit that you can plug all three heaters into and it goes all the way up to 320 degrees! Aside from these peddely issues...there are bigger ones. You buy the platinumill and then you get no support. He never answers the calls you make or emails and he doesnt send instructions at all he just posts them on the site and basically if you dont know what the hell you are doing you my friend will be in for a really big surprise because all he does is avoid you after you buy the machine. Your left with yourself and your own methods of how the thing works(this is what happened to me). The filter bags for the anodes were cut way to small making me call action mining and spending more money for the filter material. All and all I have spent so much money to get this thing up and running the right way now. I cant wait to run this final batch. I have 38 more days to send this machine back according to our contract and I will let you all know how this weeks session goes with all of you here at this forum. Anyone here who wants to talk about this more in detail can call me anytime or email me 
(559) 288-2713
[email protected]

Best,
Rob


----------



## jimdoc

Rob,
Did you roast the cat material first to get rid of
the carbon before processing? From what Action
Minings DVD and even Megan Rose's info says
you must roast the material to get rid of the carbon
or you will have problems.
I plan on building my own machine and have been
building up the parts, and wanting to do it right have
been patient. When I used my System III type setup
I had the same problem with the battery charger kicking
on and off, so I know I need a "real" power supply 
for a System IV type setup. I also wondered how the
machine wouldn't clog up, and how the solution circulates
going up the column, and the down the clear tube-then
how would it have enough force to go up the next tube?
Is there some kind of screen in the bottom and top of
the tubes to prevent clogs? All these are questions I
had to get answered to build my machine, or else do
some experimenting with water before going to the 
acids and maybe wasting any cat monolith.
Good luck with your next batch, since you put out 
the bucks you should at least be satisfied with the
results of the machine working, I think the amounts
he says would get are greatly exagerated., even if
that is with the best exotic cats, how often do you
really run into them? He should be giving domestic
cat results that you can find everyday, not setting
people up for dissapointment.
Jim


----------



## Froggy

I'm almost speechless. I have decided to start looking into grinding my materials, doing an assay and send my products to a refiner as members on this forum have pointed out, less hassle, less danger, more accuracy on what I send. But, none the less, we are all looking forward to your results. The few times I have called platinumill, they sound like abunch of rednecks (no offence to rednecks, I live deep in the heart of Texas myself) that are running around with there heads cut off. Keep up the post Rob, Frog


----------



## goldsilverpro

I have heard that the reason for roasting is to convert the ceramic to a state that makes it much less soluble in acids. I would guess that, if it weren't roasted, the ceramic slimes could really gum up the works.


Froggy,

Look before you leap. Before you set up or do anything, talk to the buyer(s) and make sure that they will accept this ground material and, under what conditions. Ask them what should be done. There are other things you'll have to learn: How to sample? How to blend? What to do with the higher grade ultra fines - you may want to screen them off and ship 2 lots? 

Also, the buyer will most probably want to blend and sample in his facility. You should be there and witness this entire operation. When blended, a set of samples are made up for each party. The material should then be put into drums and sealed with numbered seals. When each party has finished their assays, the settlement is made. Only then, are the drums opened.

I've only hit on a few things. There are more. Much depends on what the buyer says. Also, remember that we're talking tonnage sized lots.


----------



## Froggy

Thx, I have time, my pile of acorns will grow into a big oak, then I will harvest them..... i hope to be at 500+ cats a month soon,,,,, working on it, I will get there


----------



## loco

at 500 cats that should put you over the 1000lb mark easily...probably than that. a smelter should be interested in them at that point. 

also I'm sure this is understood but if anyone finds a means of handling converter material for ovious profit could you point some of us in the right direction?

also as far as the platinumill is concerned check out his guest book now? appears he's removed negative comments from it, or ones he doesn't like.

-Rich


----------



## loco

man since my post which wasn't slamming him on his guest book I have recieved 2 contacts from another guy that isn't happy with the machine. Oh and speaking of comments on his guest book anything he doesn't like has been removed. keeps things looking cleaner I guess. by the way the other guy who actually bought his machine from rob/platinumill says he only paid 6400 for it. figured hvyshakes would like that.

spoke to someone at actionmining today and they say they have gotten a few calls in regaurds to folks who have bought the "mill" and had issues looking for support since platinumill hasn't been. Sad to say but it sounds like they are holding strong (not that I blame them) in not supporting or helping those who bought the platinumill. As it's not their machine/product. LOL well not directly.


----------



## Harold_V

goldsilverpro said:


> I have heard that the reason for roasting is to convert the ceramic to a state that makes it much less soluble in acids. I would guess that, if it weren't roasted, the ceramic slimes could really gum up the works.



That was the result I experienced when I messed with some ceramic pellets many years ago. I extracted values with AR, but the solution was not a pleasure to filter. I concluded, early on, that it wasn't worth my time to mess with cats, although there's no doubt that they are worth running today. Not many were available back when I tried. My timing was somewhat premature. 

Harold


----------



## markqf1

Rob,
Very kind of you to share your info with us. Have you been able to secure a buyer for this (sludge) material? I've had a hard time finding someone to agree to accept it, by description alone. Of course, it is a little harder to sell something that your not holding in your hand yet. The last company I emailed ... Specialty Metals, is familar with leach resins but, they referred to leach resins made by Dow and Rohm Haas. They say those leach resins contain 12% metallic content on average. I'm still waiting to hear back from them. Since I still do not know how much "sludge" the process captures per pound, I have no way to know if 12% of that amount could be profitable. I'd love to know how much sludge material (on average)you should be collecting per pound of crushed substrate.

Mark


----------



## loco

from what I was told by another gent was Dow's resin is SR-3 for cat material, as he said that is what he uses. And maybe someone with a bit more knowledge that I would consider contacting rocky ledge mining company and telling me what you think of thier process. The only site I could find on him was an older tripod site he said his wife toyed with before that had an actual site made up, and then was taken down when he was injured.


----------



## markqf1

Loco,

I'm sure that you are more computer literate than myself.
But I'm good on the phone.
Got a city and state?


----------



## markqf1

Froggy,
You recently stated either here or on another post that you recently sold some material to a refiner. It won't bother me if you tell me it's none of my business but uh,... I was wondering about what the average per lb. would return?


----------



## Froggy

I signed up with a refiner but sold my cats to a buyer that sells to the same refiner. He buys enough then turns them in, he gets a better bulk price....


----------



## shadybear

I love hearing about these cats-this is something every little guy could make a living with if it could be figured out.

---So can I start at the beginning--

Is it better to crush or just keep the honeycomb solid

Does roasting help? Why?

Does roasting mess up the palladium

Is 120 degrees the required temp for AR leaching

How long does it need to be at this temp for all PGM's to leach fully?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe we can group together or something and get the experts some combs to experiment with and let us know.

I know I can sell a GM double cat for $115. to the scrapper
he wouldn't pay that if he wasn't making money from it


----------



## shadybear

Here are some thoughts I had about cats.

you have The PGM's, the ceramic, organic build-up and gamma alumina
wash coat in a used converter.

So if you crush this and screen to 200 mesh would there be a way to make a water based solution with specific gravity of say 4 or 5 and do a float seperation.

Or if crushed and screened to 200 mesh would a wave table seperate the PGM's. Like the ones actionmining has that will seperate flour gold from black sand at 200 mesh, that seems like a much tighter seperation than ceramic and PGM's


----------



## Lou

I crush the converter honeycomb once it has been removed from its casing. Then it can be roasted to remove any carbon.

Platinum does not oxidize in air at any temperature, but the palladium will oxidize to a green-black solid. This does not ruin it. The oxide can be difficult to dissolve, but it will dissolve just fine.


Most industrial processes where they go after the PGMs from converters as a primary focus usually use a mixture of relatively concentrated sulfuric with dilute hydrochloric. This dissolves away the substrate and leaves the PGM residues as a sludge on the bottom. That's then recovered with AR.

It is important to note that you should not use concentrated acids to dissolve away the substrate, because the HCl can be oxidized to chlorine by the hot sulfuric acid...and that will dissolve the palladium. Not good. So keep everything around 4M H+ if not less.


----------



## shadybear

So you say use sulfuric and hydrocloric acid, isnt that nitric acid


----------



## Lou

Nope, not at all. 

Nitric acid is a strong oxidizing acid of the formula HNO3, sulfuric aka H2SO4 is a strong acid too, but much less oxidizing. HCl is a strong binary acid, but it is not oxidizing so to speak. 

What I mean by strong acid is the way in which the acid ionizes in water. The more H+ is formed (what makes an acid an acid in aqueous conditions) the stronger it is.



Hope that helps.


----------



## skippy

From the book by Mr. Rao that I posted about in the books subforum



> This process is used to recover PGMs from catalysts with a cordierite substrate and
> comprises the following steps:
> 1) crushing to 25 mm;
> 2) alumina removal by dilute sulfurie acid;
> 3) decantation and washing;
> 4) PGM precipitation by scrap aluminum and tellurium from the solution (cementation);
> 5) decantotion and washing;
> 7) PGM precipitation by sulfur dioxide in the presence of tellurium;
> 8 ) the solids from aluminum precipitation are mixed with the solids from sulfur dioxide
> precipitation and filtered;
> 9) the PGMs are redissolved in chlorine and hydrochloric acid;
> 10) the tellurium is extracted by a tributyl phospahte solvent extraction; PGMs are
> precipitated from the raffinate


.


I follow steps 1-3 pretty well, but in step four I am confused. At this point shouldn't the PGMs be in the sludge like Lou has said? As far as I know Pt, Pd, and Rh arn't attacked by dillute sulfuric. I know rhodium will dissolve in concentrated sulfuric, and maybe some palladium oxide dissolves in the sulfuric? Maybe this would explain the fancy precipitation at 4 - enough dissolved values to justify a precipitation. Any body know?


----------



## lazersteve

Skippy,

I have successfully dissolved PGMs from cats using 60% Sulfuric and table salt.

I have no knowledge of what Mr. Roa's book is referring to, but it reads like when Tellurium is present the PGMs tend to go into solution as well (?).

The part at the end (step 10) looks like it's from a patent I've recently seen on PGM recovery from catalysts. :?: 
Here's the link:

Platinum from Catalysts

Steve


----------



## shadybear

So is there a way to make a water solution of 4 specific gravity.

Anyone ever do that
Anyone ever use mechinacal seperation on cats


----------



## skippy

Yes, Lazersteve it is kind of mysterious, isn't it. Maybe I'll do some research on Tellurium in this sort of situation and report back. 

Another thing, does the cordierite stay mostly intact after stripping the alumina? In the Rao book he calls it the insoluble substrate method, I assume because the alumina dissolves easier than the cordierite. Is this correct?


----------



## lazersteve

Skippy,

Here's a sample of some cat beads treated by two different extraction methods. 

The top photo is of the beads after they are extracted once with boiling dilute AR.

[img:574:1228]http://www.goldrecovery.us/images/cat_methods.jpg[/img]

The lower photo is the same batch of beads from the top photo treated a second time with the sulfuric/chloride method.

Pay particular attention to the color, size, and texture of the beads. Notice that they are completely white after the sulfuric treatment and considerablly more decayed. The top beads still contian a large portion of the Pt and Rh due to the fact that the dilute AR did not remove these PGMs effectively. 

I have confirmed this by boiling a small batch of the beads in AR and producing Pt. The beads still maintained their color and size after a second boil in concentrated AR. This leads me to believe the sulfuric extraction process is better than the AR method for this type of material.

I will perform more tests on the honeycomb material soon.


Steve


----------



## Lou

shadybear said:


> So is there a way to make a water solution of 4 specific gravity.
> 
> Anyone ever do that
> Anyone ever use mechinacal seperation on cats




Sure there are ways. Thallium malonate is one, there are polytungstates that will do the job too. All are highly expensive, and the thallium as the added bonus of being highly toxic, and really soluble! Oh joy!


I've seen a lot of reference to ammonium halides, sulfuric acid, and atmospheric oxygen (possibly substituted for H2O2) as being an effective method for stripping values. Personally, I can give a damn about the wet chem methods for catalytic converters unless Steve can show me how well it really works.

Instead I put my hope on making the halides of these PGMS and taking advantage of the substrate's resistance to halogens, while exploiting the PGMs volatility when oxidized by a suitable halogen (bromine or chlorine). That is my pet project. Unfortunately, batch sizes would be limited to the size of the tube furnace you could construct, and how much of a reaction tube you could afford.



Lou


----------



## Irons

of Ferro Silicon. It behaves like a liquid with a high Specific Gravity. It's used commercially to classify PGM ore.


----------



## loco

also notice that fella at platinumill was getting neg. feedback even on his own web site he got tired of it and the effort it was taking to keep up with deleteing it and now has removed it all together. I guess it's safe for everyone to make thier own opinions from there on why a standup company would do that.


----------



## markqf1

Not exactly what I would call customer service.
I think I'll hold on to my ... $$$? for right now.
Wouldn't be suprised if a couple of others feel the same.


----------



## hvyshakes1

The Platinumill is not a machine to invest in. Why? Its not correctly put together for one, and if you want this machine to work its like you have to spend more money to fix all of the glitches. The clogging is notorious. It happens constantly there is no way around it. The machine does not circulate effectively either. I ran so many tests with water only at first.Then the real 50% HCL and 50% water with 100ml of sulfuric acid for every gallon of solution and then finally an ounce of CLS 26P for every gallon(from Action Mining) with converter material(about a 5 gallon bucket full of crushed material with some powder also) .Then after trial and error the last test I ran was again plain water and my Uncle gave me a smart idea which i should have done in the first place also. To shoot red dye or any color dye into the water to see if it is circulating. Well guess what? The machine didnt circulate the dye throughout the system. There was all kinds of areas where you would see it bleed into the pure water but not completly. The Verdict? Dont buy the machine! It does not do what it says at all. 

Best,
Rob


----------



## markqf1

Thanks Rob,
Alot of us have been contemplating this machine.
Sorry that you had to be the one to bite the bullet.
I'll let you know of my progress with the system III when and if.

Mark


----------



## markqf1

If anyone needed further proof.
www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/301/ripoff0301795.htm


----------



## Froggy

Hey guys, what happens to the honeycomb material that is ran through the system? is it disolved completely? basicly the pgm's are washed off the ceramic honeycomb material and deposited on to the plate thingy? The honeycomb is made of ceramic and doesnt get effected? does it turn color after being washed? Seems like you wouldnt want to crush the material ,but leave it whole allowing fluid to travel through it. You may not process as much but the wash would seem better? Thx, Frog


----------



## Froggy

Has anyone processed the "slimes" yet.... Found a smelter? Minimum amount of slime they will process? Any #s on value of cats you processed? Mark, I'm really wanting to know how the action mining system works out,,,,,, Frog


----------



## Lou

I might be interested in processing the slimes. I don't want to buy them, but I'd charge a fee (idk say 6% of recovered values) to separate out the materials into Pd, Rh, and Pt powder.


----------



## Froggy

Thats alot better rate than techemet!!! Somebody send this man some slimy stuff......plz....


----------



## markqf1

Yea Frog, no problem.
Things just haven't moved along as quickly as I'd hoped.
I've basically got a $2000 experiment in the works.
I intend to share those results with you guys... good or bad.
I 've read alot about how most converters are shipped out of the country to asia to do the recovery where labor is cheap.
I'd rather guys like us do it here if it can be done.
I have a reputable individual that has agreed to do some tests once I produce some resin.
I'm hoping to get at least some information for my $$ in the next 30 days.
I will keep you posted
Mark


----------



## aflacglobal

Froggy said:


> Seems like you wouldnt want to crush the material ,but leave it whole allowing fluid to travel through it. You may not process as much but the wash would seem better? Thx, Frog



I wondered the same. The pgm's should be on the surface of the materials, not mixed in with the base. Would you not be better off just leaving it hole :?:


----------



## Froggy

Hvyshakes was having a problem with flow,(dye test showed very little) I know you couldnt process as much, but do you really save that much room/volume by crushing it? I also wonder about a ball mill? crush it into oblivion and then seperate it with a really fine shaker table? action mining has some really fine material shaker tables..... just a thought... frog


----------



## loco

while we are on the topic of leaching, etc material... anyone know of how many different, practical, small scale methods are out there? And other than AR and non iodized salts methods? Which steve found the salts method to be better. Kudos to steve for sharing his research with us all!!! Which methods are better production quanity/quality wise? 

I talked to a guy the other day that said he knows of a smelter that takes the resin and pays out 3-5% of spot but has a $500 assay charge on resin/pgm assays to make it worth his time. seems most I find online from other searches appears closer to 10% of spot but no assay cost.


----------



## Lou

It usually is a quantity thing. If you hold up and wait til you have 100 ounces of PGMs, or equivalent amount of values in the resin, then usually those fellows are really nice to you and will give you much more money. Also you can be a little demanding when you have a quantity like that saying things like "well, if you want another 100 t. oz. next month, then I think I'd like a fairer price, or maybe you can waive the assay fee?"



There are many ways to skin a cat  

I've mentioned before that I'm working on a dry process that involves heat and a halogen gas. Then there's an aqueous work up (pretty much dissolve the salt, oxidize it, then selectively precipitate it).

Conventionally it's: dissolve substrate, then dissolve residues (Pd and Pt, fusion for Rh, or direct halogenation).

I've also heard of people using ammonium bromide, sulfuric acid, and oxygen/H2O2 in an autoclave at couple hundred degrees or so, 96-98% yields IIRC. This is from what I remember of a patent from the South Dakota School of Mines... I can dig it up if anyone wants it?

Also heard of 170C cyanide leach which boasts 98% yields. Again, from a patent, I can go find it if anyone wants it.


Louis


----------



## markqf1

I read on another forum that cyanide leaching is the preferred method that most of the large gold refiners use because it is the cheapest way to go. This is the first I've heard of using it for pgm's. Evidently, maintaining the proper ph is a must, if you don't want alot of dangerous gas around.
I don't think I'm quite ready to be chasing the ph around with this stuff yet. It does sound interesting though.


----------



## Lou

Meh, keep it pretty strongly basic and you're in the clear. 

General rule is if you smell burnt almonds...get the hell out of there


----------



## Irons

Lou said:


> Meh, keep it pretty strongly basic and you're in the clear.
> 
> General rule is if you smell burnt almonds...get the hell out of there



http://www.cyanidecode.org/cyanide_chemistry.php



Cyanide Species

The term cyanide refers to a singularly charged anion consisting of one carbon atom and one nitrogen atom joined with a triple bond, CN-. The most toxic form of cyanide is free cyanide, which includes the cyanide anion itself and hydrogen cyanide, HCN, either in a gaseous or aqueous state. At a pH of 9.3 - 9.5, CN- and HCN are in equilibrium, with equal amounts of each present. At a pH of 11, over 99% of the cyanide remains in solution as CN-, while at pH 7, over 99% of the cyanide will exist as HCN. Although HCN is highly soluble in water, its solubility decreases with increased temperature and under highly saline conditions. Both HCN gas and liquid are colorless and have the odor of bitter almonds, although not all individuals can detect the odor.


----------



## loco

call me gun shy but the idea of playing with CN/HCN makes me a little uneasy at this point unless I really knew more of the in's and out's of useing it. Cheaper is always a perk but no perk (money, or saving a few bucks, pretty metals, etc...) is worth my continued existance as a living, breathing, functioning being. I guess it's more of the idea of it being used in gas chambers that tends to make me a bit more shy.


----------



## Froggy

I need to try to find a local chemist that can help me get set up with a system I have in mind, I do not need to burn my lungs out or blow myself up! I dont see anyone on this forum from the Houston area though. Mabey I should contact the local university?


----------



## Irons

loco said:


> call me gun shy but the idea of playing with CN/HCN makes me a little uneasy at this point unless I really knew more of the in's and out's of useing it. Cheaper is always a perk but no perk (money, or saving a few bucks, pretty metals, etc...) is worth my continued existance as a living, breathing, functioning being. I guess it's more of the idea of it being used in gas chambers that tends to make me a bit more shy.



This is why I don't like it:

[img:1744:1256]http://www.berkshirecc.edu/library/a_zyklon_wrapper.jpg[/img]


----------



## loco

is it the language that I think is german? or the skull and cross bones on the label that is the reason you don't care for it? 

LOL hey before anyone takes any offense to the german comment, that stems from that wierd feeling I get when you walk into a room and you are the only person in the room not speaking "X" language. Which has happened to me in spanish, german, chinese and japanese while hanging out with friends of mine. so easy does it! no harm intended.


----------



## Irons

loco said:


> is it the language that I think is german? or the skull and cross bones on the label that is the reason you don't care for it?
> 
> LOL hey before anyone takes any offense to the german comment, that stems from that wierd feeling I get when you walk into a room and you are the only person in the room not speaking "X" language. Which has happened to me in spanish, german, chinese and japanese while hanging out with friends of mine. so easy does it! no harm intended.



The Ammonium salt of Hydrocyanic Acid. It was used to murder millions of innocent people in the concentration camps. Every time I smell bitter almonds, I think of those people and that it was the last thing they smelled.


----------



## peter i

Visited one of the KZ-camps in Poland once. They have a monument there: A domed concrete builiding, with a huge pile of ashes in the middle, nothing else...


(The Germans were not the first to kill people in gas chambers using cyanide, bý the way).

If you want the rest of your day ruined, just google "democide".


----------



## Irons

peter i said:


> Visited one of the KZ-camps in Poland once. They have a monument there: A domed concrete builiding, with a huge pile of ashes in the middle, nothing else...
> 
> 
> (The Germans were not the first to kill people in gas chambers using cyanide, bý the way).
> 
> If you want the rest of your day ruined, just google "democide".



they just did it on an industrial scale.


----------



## Froggy

Lazersteves method washed (ate away) the pgm,s from the beads alot more that the other method., I suppose it depends on how long you wash them in both methods? Sure like the pics Steve, looking forward to the honeycomb pics. Would you use the system III process but with a different solution (salt solution)to achieve the results you did? Is your cd close to being finished yet? Im about to give in and buy the action mining cd. Thx Frog


----------



## markqf1

Irons,
Uh... me too!
Frog,
I'll give you a real good deal on the videos in a week or so.


----------



## Froggy

Mark, dare I ask how the $499.00 system III turned into a $2000 project? And, Sure I will send you a blank disk or vhs tape of your method!!! Cant wait for your results, no really I cant wait. Ill fly up tommorow and help you! :lol: OOOOHHH, too late I ordered the action mining cd..... nice people... Frog


----------



## loco

did I miss where mark's system III turned into a $2,000 project? someone please explain


----------



## lazersteve

Frog, 

The sample of beads I posted the photos of was treated for 1 hour with the sulfuric salt bath @ 135C.

I've never seen the system III plans so I don't really know if the chems will work with it or not. I just heated the beads in a flask under reflux to achieve my results, no fancy equipment required.

The DVD is still in progress, I'm trying to get my hands on a decent quantity of Platinum to make the video results meaningful. I refuse to put out the DVD until it meets my standards. When it's finished it will be worth the wait.

I'm working on the honeycombs as part of the DVD also.


Steve


----------



## Froggy

Loco,Page 5 of this thread :::markqf1
Member


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 31
Location: georgia
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yea Frog, no problem. 
Things just haven't moved along as quickly as I'd hoped. 
I've basically got a $2000 experiment in the works. 
I intend to share those results with you guys... good or bad. 
I 've read alot about how most converters are shipped out of the country to asia to do the recovery where labor is cheap. 
I'd rather guys like us do it here if it can be done. 
I have a reputable individual that has agreed to do some tests once I produce some resin. 
I'm hoping to get at least some information for my $$ in the next 30 days. 
I will keep you posted 
Mark 
Thx, Steve, I will be throwing together something myself soon. Sure seems the easy and cheap way to do it.


----------



## markqf1

$2000 experiment = ...

I was offered $900 cash for the converters this sample material came from.
System III is $499.00 before taxes and shipping.
CLS-26P 10 lbs. $82.00 plus taxes and shipping.
Video package was $199.00.
Acids obtained locally $125.00
Baking soda and fire extingusher in case of accident $45.00
Propane gas to "roast" material $18.00.
And I still will have to find and pay for a legal way to ship resins(if there are any).
Add it all up and its easy to see what it takes.
Maybe most people wouldn't consider the $900 dollars I could have gotten for the converters as a loss, but uh ... I do!


----------



## aflacglobal

markqf1 said:


> And I still will have to find and pay for a legal way to ship resins(if there are any).



You mean Haz Mat shipping :?: :arrow: http://tinyurl.com/365cyg


----------



## markqf1

Well that makes it real plain and simple to me.
Thanks for the link!


----------



## aflacglobal

Anniston ALA :arrow: http://www.multimetco.com/services/?capabilitiesID=4


----------



## aflacglobal

Johnson Matthey's step by step refining program provides you with a hassle free method for the reclamation of your precious metal assets

http://www.jmrefining.com/page-view.php?page_id=116&parent_page_id=2


----------



## Froggy

Thx for the info, I need to hurry and get going before my dreamhouse is sold, check this out!! If I'm going to dream, mind as well go all the way!! http://www.idxcentral.com/idxsearch.cfm?idxid=tluxp&pg=profile&mls=2703420&start=41&list=49&from_price=950000&to_price=1500000&sqft=0&bed=4&bath=0&comarea=any&ptype=Single%20Family%2COther&rows=10&do=any&acmin=0&acmax=99999&fl=any&ybmin=0&set=any&lo=any&loid=any&la=any


----------



## markqf1

I bet that $5900 a month equates into a helluva lot of cats to have to process. I'm sure they would consider all reasonable offers, with the housing market being what it is right now.


----------



## Froggy

Hmm 30 lrg or exotic foriegn a month should pay for it. I doubt they are having a problem with selling these houses in this area, same goes for L.A certain hoods will never go down in value, ie. Rodeo Dr., aspen, downtown manhatten etc.. would be awsome if they would take a 50% off sale, mabey next year if things get worse in that area.... i'll be saving my PGM's..


----------



## Froggy

Just finished the action mining cd, good info, but I have to disagree with his method of figuring time to keep material washing, you are not going to leach all the same material in bulk!! The honeycomb pieces will all be of different value. My thoughts are are wash them till they start to look eaten away? just my thoughts, what do yall think? I like the assay he did on the gm caddy converter, assayed out at 35oz of pgm's a ton, figure roughly $1500 per oz of PGM's after cost. That would equal $26.25 per pound of converter material. lets just say a gm converter material is at 7lb that would be 183.75..... I can pick up Lrg. gm converters all day at 100 bucks per, so a 83.25 profit? not too shaby if your only doing 10 converters a day. But my mind doesnt work that way, 300-500 a day sounds better!!! Yep im going in to this further, hook line and sinker. Now to start building a system. Steve have you assayed any converters lately? He mentioned on the video that lrg trucks have a ton of PGM's,, I dont know what he means by Lrg. Trucks , but I will find out!! Frog


----------



## Platdigger

That would be good Frog.......but a large GM has only like 5 pounds or so of honey comb material...yes?
Randy


----------



## Froggy

Guess it depends on model? I was just using averages, 100-112 bucks for a lrg gm is full price a scrap person can get for them at the lrg. refiners, I have paid as low as $15 and as much as $80 for lrg gm,,,,,, guys that go to salvage yards give more, they try to pick up a couple of hundred a day and then flip them the same day, not a bad day if you buy 100 converters and make 2-10 bucks on each of them... but you better have a big wad, and a big gun around here carrying that kind of cash... Frog


----------



## markqf1

When you mention lg trucks, what does anyone no about diesel converters?


----------



## Froggy

I know diesel converters from diesel pickups and cars do not bring much. And some are huge. mabey he was talking about mack, kenworth etc? Or mabey offroad heavy equipment, skidders, dozers, cat, komatsu etc??? Wait a minute, I dont think they even have cats on offroad equipment.


----------



## jimdoc

I think cats on diesel vehicles are a very new
thing. You probably won't find that many yet.
They are retrofitting some older trucks and buses,
but my guess is if they are doing that they plan 
on keeping them in their fleets for awhile.
Jim


----------



## markqf1

Off road equipment burns "red " fuel with higher sulfur contents and lower taxes. I had read that some (road)diesel converters had pgm content worth recovery. just looking!


----------



## loco

here is a site that gives rough weight of cat material 

http://www.ccon.ca/content.htm


----------



## Buzz

Having bought M.R.'s (Shhh, you know who) Plats from Cats manual, she claims that the Platinum content in the Diesel Cats are much higher than petrol versions.
Basically she said that she found that there was no palladium in them, just Platinum and Rhodium.
Can anyone confirm (or deny!) this.

Regards
Buzz


----------



## Lou

I would wonder about that...the (formerly) high ~500ppm levels of sulfurous compounds in diesel would have quickly poisoned any catalyst without Rhenium in the mix. I don't recall platinum or rhodium going well with sulfur fumes...in fact, if there were excess air present, the Pt and Rh would catalytically make SO3 from sulfur dioxide, and that produces H2SO4 on contact with water vapour in the air! 


I'm willing to bet it's not just Rh and Pt...


----------



## Irons

Lou said:


> I would wonder about that...the (formerly) high ~500ppm levels of sulfurous compounds in diesel would have quickly poisoned any catalyst without Rhenium in the mix. I don't recall platinum or rhodium going well with sulfur fumes...in fact, if there were excess air present, the Pt and Rh would catalytically make SO3 from sulfur dioxide, and that produces H2SO4 on contact with water vapour in the air!
> 
> 
> I'm willing to bet it's not just Rh and Pt...



Not there if you don't look for them. 8)


----------



## Froggy

I have been having problems getting on the forum?It searches for www.digitsdndletters.com/check/n14046.htm ? my computer freezes and gets stuck there, so did my wifes.....I cheated and went straight to this thread, I had it saved to here....????? I Ordered a adjustable 2 gal per hr pump today and picking up teflon coated valves and piping tommorow. cleared out the garage and dusting off the big fans..... frog


----------



## Froggy

Well,looks like lou is the man to go to for the slimes, multimetco and jmathey do not take the material.... Ok, Im kinda confused, the action mining video shows his PGm material hardned and in gravel like form, that material should be over 80% PGM's ??? with no acids, washed? Anyone should take this material,,,, I think they will not take any solutions or slimes from the cleanups especially any that has acid residules, which can be neutralized?, , but after the PGM'c have collected and hardened anyone can finish it, correct? just trying to ge this all straight...... And what are you guys using to get your material over 700 degrees to burn off the carbon, and your method? Thx, Frog


----------



## markqf1

digitsdndletters is some type of virus.
Check some of the other posts.
Noxx?


----------



## Froggy

I found a way around it, i just go straight to this thread, if I try to go to other parts of the forum, it comes up and locks my computer, I then have to take the battery out and unplug, reboot everything, Im about to smelt my entire laptop! :lol:


----------



## Lou

If you look around, you can find a stainless steel trough (used for watering/feeding animals) that will hold over 100lbs of converter honeycomb. Build a fire underneath that and put in your crushed up material.

I found one for free sitting out on a friend's property so I don't know how much they cost, only that a place like Tractor Supply should have them.


----------



## Platdigger

Does anyone know for sure if roasting is really needed? 
I talked with a guy that claims he just boils the stuff in AR and directly poors it off when finished. I guess if you are quick enough, any carbon wouldn't have a chance to reprecipitate any values.
If you will be using that cls26p3987 stuff........I am not sure you will be getting all of the rho.


----------



## Froggy

From what I learned, say you are processing 100lb of good cats, you expect to have $4500 or approx 3 oz of pgms,,,,, but you leave2.5 oz of carbon on the cats, the carbon ionizes and will collect the same value of pgm's or 2.5oz, leaving you with .5 oz of pgm's,,, now the 2.5 of pgm;s are left in the solution, mabey your friend knows how to collect this material? I;m sure some of the smarty guys here will chime in and give more details.... Frog


----------



## Lou

Heating up the converter to a dull red heat is just more based on sound practice--it removes another thing to worry about.

As for carbon reprecipitating values, I don't know how true that is, but I'd imagine not that true otherwise platinum would just plate itself right out when I make Pt/C catalysts. But no, it doesn't, it needs a better reducing agent than micron-sized activated carbon.

Actually, boiling in aqua regia should oxidize the carbon to CO/CO2. I've seen some evidence in some work I have personally done with dissolve Pt out off of carbon.


----------



## Froggy

Hmm, the info I saw was based on the action mining video, he used a 50/50 solution with muratic acid with a pinch of his secret formula cls26p, I have not decided which leaching compound to use yet( open to suggestions? what's your choice and why? ), i do not want to strip off all the pgm's as I will forward the converter material to techemet or the like and allow them to get the rest, i have to leave a little behind! So I'm shooting for 60-80% of the pgm's and leaving the rest... I will have to save enough material, 1000lb for them to do this , but it gets rid of the material and I stilll make something off of it,,,... Frog


----------



## jimdoc

Lou,
I think Mike from Action Mining says that the carbon combines
with the platinum and probably the other metals to make things
more difficult. I don't think he is saying it is reprecipitating values.
I am not a chemist, and Mike from Action Mining isn't either, so i
can't really explain the carbon problem, except that he says roasting
the cat material before processing gets rid of the carbon to avoid
problems with it. I have to watch the DVD again to freshen up what
he says. Jim


----------



## Lou

In that case it is probably because he is worried about encapsulation of values by the fine carbon soot. This would seem the most likely, as it would slow down their reaction with aqua regia, and almost completely with HCl/Cl2.


----------



## aflacglobal

Could you not do a prewash with dilute HCl and water to remove the carbon.


----------



## Froggy

I will have my system put together by wed. I still dont know what chems. I will be using? Or if im going to heat the material up to a nice roasty red color, 700+ degrees to rid carbons. Recieved my pump today, up to 5gpm march pump, only $120, all the fittings also, will order my carbon plates (2) and filters from action mining, unless someone has another suggestion? . I plan on proccesing 20-30 lbs at a time with this system. And will upgrade as time goes by. Frog


----------



## Lou

No, I don't think HCl alone would have any effect on it.


----------



## Irons

Lou said:


> No, I don't think HCl alone would have any effect on it.



I've put Palladium in solution with just HCl. The Palladium will strip the Hydrogen and generate free Chlorine. Platinum will do the same but it takes years.

PdCl2 is insoluble in water, so if you boil off the excess HCl, it will precipitate out as a dark red flocculent solid. It can then be filtered and redissolved with Ammonium Hydroxide, re-filtered and re-precipitated with the addition of dilute HCl.


----------



## Buzz

Does anyone know what the stuff you put into your petrol tank to decoke your engine is made up of?

In the UK we have a product called Redex. Maybe it's a worldwide product.

Just wondering if you could soak the cat material in it to "decoke" it?

Buzz


----------



## markqf1

Never heard of " decokeing" here in atlanta.


----------



## Platdigger

I am sure it is just another word for decarbon or decarboning. Coke just being cooked coal (so to speak).

What about just taking a propane torch, perhaps with a rose tip, and put it directly to the uncrushed pieces. Should burn off the carbon in no time.
And if you want.....once they are up to temp you can douse the flame and burn the gas catalyticaly............just for kiks....
Randy


----------



## Froggy

It could take alot of propane if your trying to do 150lb or sowith a rose tip torch and would be uneven?, I,m going to rig up something that just blows through the converter, like a a heavy duty shop propane heater on steroids, just Tim Allen it, put tthe converter in a vice and let her rip untill the whole converter is red, that should do it, plus it will be fun!!!


----------



## markqf1

Some of the crushed material I have looks brand new, and some of it is nearly black.
This tells me that some of it will take longer to clean.
I have the bottom third of a 55 gal drum with a huge propane burner mounted underneath.
Yes, I do intend to help speed the process(especially on some of the dirtiest material) with the use of the rosebud tip.
A custom made stirrer, and a few beers should do the trick , hopefully in a short period of time. If it works... this has to be one of the cheapest ways to go about it. I intend on trying it out today!


----------



## Froggy

Hey Mark, Your addicted to this forum also, up and at it early also, I tried to give you a shout back last night, phone tag, your it.... Lou mentions something similar to what you are doing, I wonder if the barrel will do the trick by itself, or it looks like your wanting to have a little extra fun with the torch, ha :lol: Frog


----------



## lazersteve

Frog,

In my long delayed Pt and Pd video I use a torch to treat the cats. I'm hoping to find a better way. I have a feeling the induction heater I'm building will help in this process. Lots of heat with out the added gas.

On my first go around with the beads, I found the carbon all came of the material after about 10 minutes in hot very dilute AR. The AR was a mixture of 300 mL of HCl, 15 mL of HNO3, and 300 mL of water.

The liquid contained a very small amount of Pd and little or no Pt. The carbon formed a fine gray sludge suspension in the liquid that settled upon setting after pouring off the liquid while the carbon was still floating in the mix.

Here's a snapshot of the sludge from the beads:







and one of the before and after of the beads:






and finally one of a honeycomb which has been heated for five minutes with straight MAPP gas, the left half of the cat has yet to be heat treated for comparison:






With the heating method you must allow time for the heat to penetrate across the entire cat structure. The carbon hides in the 'tunnels' that the cat structure forms. I feel the best approach for the removal of carbon via heat is to set up a 'bead of coals' if you will and allow the cats to sit over it in a single layer while the carbon roasts off. The heat source could be several gas fed burners or a long gas burner that the single layer of cats slowly moves over. You can monitor the progress of the removal of the carbon by observing the side of the cat, as the carbon is removed the side of the cat changes color. The cats should be laid on the burner surface with the heat flowing thru the openings in them. You will also see the gases coming out of the cats vents on the opposite side from the heat source.

When using a torch I lay the cat on it's side and slowly work the torch across the face of the cat. The edge of the cat with no holes in it is against a iron plate.

All this will be on my video when it's completed. I have so many videos to edit for this DVD it's very time consuming and I have little if no free time. 

I ask everyone to please bear with me while I finish the DVD.

Steve


----------



## fixinator

:idea: I've got a roofing torch. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? I'll try this on a cat that I am getting ready to process sometime after the snow melts enough to get to my shed. After seeing Steve's honeycomb after the mapp gas torch that this would do as well only alot faster. 

Fire up the afterburners!! heheheheh.


Rod


----------



## Froggy

I found it! this should do the job, A I found a (sure flame) 375,000 btu torch that would do a great job (ebay search sure flame) 100 bucks, prob. like a roofing torch, I have lp here at the house and will have to see if I can switch it,,,,, Frog heres a link.... http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Propane-Torch-Sure-Flame-90-000-375-000-BTU_W0QQitemZ290075382429QQihZ019QQcategoryZ111477QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## loco

as far as firing the carbon off can anyone see an issue doing in say a cut in 1/2 burn barrel set on top of my propane burner (large propane burners thing once ignited probably has an 8 inch flame in diameter) and then speeding things up by adding torch on top side as well. I think I have 2 of types out in my fathers garage one is more custom made with it's own stand and the other mounts to a the top of a 20 gal tank.

oh yeah and those roofing torches work melting thick ice off your walk ways here in the frozen north.


----------



## fixinator

Froggy said:


> I found it! this should do the job, A I found a (sure flame) 375,000 btu torch that would do a great job (ebay search sure flame) 100 bucks, prob. like a roofing torch, I have lp here at the house and will have to see if I can switch it,,,,, Frog heres a link.... http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Propane-Torch-Sure-Flame-90-000-375-000-BTU_W0QQitemZ290075382429QQihZ019QQcategoryZ111477QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem




That's close Froggy. The one I have is 500k BTU and has a trigger so you don't have to run so much gas through it when not heating something. Still it uses gas so fast that on a 90 degree day it can freeze a 20 pound tank solid in about 15 to 20 minutes. Let it thaw for an hour and in another 15 to 20 it's empty!

Fix


----------



## Froggy

hmm yours sounds more versatile, what brand and make is it, I really want one that uses natural gas,I could hook it up to my house gas line...would solve the freezing problem and refill problem... Hey heres an idea, drill a hole in your cat between the honeycomb, add gas line and light the ends, step back, wait till nice roasty red, should blow out everything? :lol:


----------



## markqf1

Natural gas or LP.
Most will do both it you change the orfice to your spec. needs.


----------



## aflacglobal

You wont get as much heat per unit volume as you would with LPG.


----------



## markqf1

Loco,
Pics coming.
Yours is my method.


----------



## markqf1

I can believe it.
Lp gas has got to be the cheapest way to heat.


----------



## Anonymous

you need a valve system so you can feed the propane as liquid from the bottle and flash it to gas at or just before the burner that way your bottle will not freeze.


----------



## markqf1

Does ... or could this involve the introduction of air ,or better yet O2?


----------



## Anonymous

it would flash to gas just before the air port on your burner. I used this before I switched to Kerosene/waste oil.

Jim


----------



## markqf1

Now, you sound like a man that knows what he's talking about.
How long does it take kerosene to burn off the sulfides?


----------



## Anonymous

I do not use it for that, I do some metal casting. I can melt cast iron 10lb in 15 min or so but I have forced air. I mostly melt aluminum and that is
easy as pie. Made my own metal lathe and I am working on a milling machine. Also used to do a little casting of sinker molds for fishing and net weights.

My new job keeps me very busy now so I haven't been able to do any of that for some time now.


----------



## Anonymous

If I were going to process cats and needed to burn off carbon, sulfide etc
I would use a fluidized bed with heated air that would be easier. Since most of the post I have seen deal with ground up material. And they would let the cat material do a good bit of the work for you.


----------



## aflacglobal

NATURAL GAS 
Cost per therm in dollars $ 1.50
Efficiency 80 %

LP GAS 
Cost per gallon in dollars $ 2.50
Efficiency 78 %

I didn't say it was cheaper i just said it had more energy output per volume of gas. Here's the cost >>> http://www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=914


----------



## Froggy

I'll have to check out my rates here, I dont have a big honkin lp tank laying around, just thought it would be easier to hook up to my house and get after it. I'm working on a more viable solution to this problem, wonder what a steam cleaner would do? shouldnt take too much to knock out the carbons ? l low pressure steam cleaning in the can may do wonders? Frog


----------



## nostrabola

Separation of platinum group elements:
http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/afantinolo/Docencia/Avanzada/grupo8/Residuo%20Insoluble.pdf


----------



## fixinator

james122964 said:


> you need a valve system so you can feed the propane as liquid from the bottle and flash it to gas at or just before the burner that way your bottle will not freeze.




I borrowed a torch like this once. Though it burned alot hotter and longer it would still freeze the tank. We used that one for starting a brush fire in a swamp. I set it at the base of a 20 ft. high pile of green wood and leaves. POOF, 20 minutes later we were raking the ashes, heheheh.


----------



## nostrabola

Metal ore platinum. Natural State:
http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/afantinolo/Docencia/Avanzada/grupo8/Residuo%20Insoluble.pdf
http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/afantinolo/Docencia/Avanzada/grupo8/menapt.pdf
Elements of the group 9. Cobalt, rhodium and iridium. Preparation and properties:
http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/afantinolo/Docencia/Avanzada/grupo9/Tras_Grupo9.pdf
http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/afantinolo/Docencia/Avanzada/grupo9/grupo_9.htm
Elements of the group 10. Nickel Palladium and platinum. Preparation and properties:
http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/afantinolo/Docencia/Avanzada/grupo10/Tras_grupo10.pdf
http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/afantinolo/Docencia/Avanzada/grupo10/grupo_10.htm


----------



## Irons

Platinum Group Metals, like the related Nickel, react with Carbon Monoxide to form volatile Carbonyl compounds. Heating cats in a reducing atmosphere in the presence of Carbon can and probably will form these volatile compounds that will be lost. Since engines normally run in a CO rich state, these carbonyl PGM compounds are formed over time and cause a loss of the PGMs.

Heating them with a torch will do the same. So, if you wonder where the PGMs went......


----------



## Anonymous

that is one reason to heat the air and let the cats burn the leftovers plus you would not add any more carbon into the ground cat meal. Fluid bed are fairly easy to build then you would just need a blower and I would use
5 kw of electric heat element to heat the air. 

jim


----------



## alancj

Irons said:


> Platinum Group Metals, like the related Nickel, react with Carbon Monoxide to form volatile Carbonyl compounds. Heating cats in a reducing atmosphere in the presence of Carbon can and probably will form these volatile compounds that will be lost. Since engines normally run in a CO rich state, these carbonyl PGM compounds are formed over time and cause a loss of the PGMs.
> 
> Heating them with a torch will do the same. So, if you wonder where the PGMs went......



Here I was just going to ask if anybody has considered forming carbonyl compounds to recover PGMs... because that's how the nickel and platinum is recovered from the nickel deposits in Canada. But in terms of loss of PGMs when heating to above 700 degree's (celsius?) I am not too sure about this. I know that metal carbonyls tend to decompose at relatively low temperatures of a couple hundred degree's C. For example Iron carbonyl forms at 110C and decomposes at 200C. According to Webelements.com Platinum Cabonyl decomposes at its melting point of just 25C. So before any CO forms you will be well above the decomposition temperature of the compound. 
-Alan


----------



## fixinator

Does this mean that I could recover PGMs by heating with the torch and then condensing the exhaust? I know it isn't that simple. Also it seems to me that with the carbon clinging to the honeycomb already that any method of heating could create carbonyls. Would a solvent cleaning be better?

Fix


----------



## Froggy

Ok, I give up, tommorow I will steam clean my cats, lts easy,cheap,safe and fast. I will tell ya'll how it works out. It should be simple to get this carbon built up off, its not bonded and infused with the elements and/or the cans.....


----------



## aflacglobal

Has anyone checked to see if one of the honey combs has Electrical resistance. Got a voltmeter ?


----------



## lazersteve

Ralph,

The honeycomb in the photo has a resistance of greater than 20 Meg Ohms.

For all practical purposes it's an insulator.

Steve


----------



## alancj

fixinator said:


> Does this mean that I could recover PGMs by heating with the torch and then condensing the exhaust? I know it isn't that simple. Also it seems to me that with the carbon clinging to the honeycomb already that any method of heating could create carbonyls. Would a solvent cleaning be better?
> 
> Fix



No, because if CO is in contact with the metals above their respective metal carbonyl decomposition temperature then no reaction would take place. As soon as the carbonyl tries to form it would decompose on the spot back into the metal and CO. 

-Alan


----------



## aflacglobal

lazersteve said:


> Ralph,
> 
> The honeycomb in the photo has a resistance of greater than 20 Meg Ohms.
> 
> For all practical purposes it's an insulator.
> 
> Steve




:evil: :evil: :evil:


----------



## Froggy

Hey Steve/Ralph the honeycomb is an insulator but what about hooking up and putting juice to the can? Crank it up and get it a nice glowing red? Spoke with kitco, they pay 86% of pt,rh,pd after their assay comes in (up to 6 weeks) he said it takes this long to value the rh,,,,, so i suppose( as mentioned here on this forum) the rh doesnt really dissolve well with this leaching process. even to have enough material to send to kitco, you will have a good amount of $$ tied up in cats, better have deep pockets if you are buying cats for this venture, 1. you buy 100 cats for 100per ($10,000) 2. you process and send out material, you only recover 60-80% of the pgm's by leaching, so now you have to save your material (substrate) till you get a ton so the big boy's (techemet etc) will proccess it. The pgm's you did recover need to be sent off and you will recieve no pay for 6 weeks. If the 100cats have have only $150? of Pgm's this could be a very difficult venture, you better have deep pockets! Or alot of cheap&free cats! Now once you start doing more and more cats the values for your efforts go up and things work out better, but as far as doing this for a living and making some real cash, its all or nothing, your either in or out, unless your doing this as a hobby and trying to do a few cats and refine the metals yourself, good for you, you like chemisty. My hobbies include 4wheelers and sand dunes etc... The point I'm making is do not be disillusioned by making big money on cats , unless you have big $ to get them and the time to wait for the cash, it can be done , but like any buisness it has overhead& and the right way to do things, that being said, I am fortunate enough to have all the cats I want with no upfront cost, ( I will be paying after they are proccesed and I am paid) that way my only cost is my initial setup&time and a few chems. on the way to my pathway to riches!!! I almost have all the things I need to get started, some are on the way, I will be able to process 25-30lb 2x a day and the equipment all cost under a $1000, and I didnt skimp, I actually bought a real rectifier instead of a battery charger, a larger one that will allow for expansion of my operation in the future. This has been a fun process but the fun is just about to start, SHOW ME THEY MONEY! In an email to BSF (formerly engelhard) I asked, What is your process of turning my PGM"S to food (cash) ha..... Like I said this has been fun and all, but I cant wait to see the final results. I'm tired of seeing my wife roll her eyes with another crazy idea...... We'll see who gets the last laugh. My wifes is great by the way, she's my best friend and very supportive, Check ya'll later, Frog


----------



## aflacglobal

Aflac !!!!

I'm doing my own special rework of the Platinumill.
This one is going to be simple but not exactly cheap. I have added all the proper control equipment and bells and whistles. All parameters are controlled either manually or automated. Their are no knobs to turn on this one. All items are top of the line, nothing from wally world. ( no pun  ) Long story short. I figure if Platinum is going to crash and burn someone needs to pick up the slack. This one is for the serious minded processor. Oh and i think i might even be able to offer financing :wink: 

Just something to think about.

Question : i think the PGM's are plasma deposited on the substrate honeycomb. I think the base is Si. Does anyone have a good idea of the thickness of the plating or a complete make up of the cat material including layers and thicknesses.


----------



## jimdoc

This is a good book to get if you really want to learn about
converters;
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9783527304912&itm=12
They are sold out, but maybe you can find it at your library
or another store or Ebay.
Jim


----------



## Froggy

0% down, cash back? :lol:


----------



## Froggy

Found this on ebay today! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SCRAP-Catalytic-Converter-Leaching-Machine-removes-PGMs_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33629QQihZ017QQitemZ270209698423QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW hope its not anyone we know, wonder if its a platinumill? what a hunk o' junk, cheap battery charger, he hid the pump and model, the valves are cheap home depot with the metal screws in them (metal screws!!!) I was the one that left comments at the bottom...... Poor chump, he's trying to pawn it off on someone else....


----------



## aflacglobal

It's a first generation platinumill.
That's what i don't want. I'll give you a rundown on my ideas later. That's the one i was talking about building for a thousand or less. I think that is cheezy.


----------



## Froggy

The guy just wrote me an email, he feels terrible, I reffered him to here, someone ought to turn platinumill onto the BBB or sue him, the cheap azz battery charger, the metal screws in the cheap valves from home depot, and I bet the pump doesnt move enough fluids, Heavyshakes said he had no flow on his,, for 8g's platinumill ought to do everything for you, exact way to open cans,buy cats,list values of specific cats, what acids to use, carbon removal, who will take you material , what they charge ,phone #s ,address of the refiner, person to do the assay, information that it takes 6 weeks to get the rh assayd correctly, what to do with your old acids blaa, bllaaabla,,, this guy sells nothing but a few cheap parts, I hate it when people get screwed.. Frog


----------



## aflacglobal

Is that plywood and painted 2x4's . OMG :shock:


----------



## aflacglobal

Catalytic converter substrates 

A substrate is a substance on which some other substance is absorbed or in which it is absorbed.

Catalytic converters are used to reduce the amounts of nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, and un-reacted hydrocarbons in automotive emissions. (Catalytic conversion requires a precisely balanced air-to-fuel ratio, hence the need for oxygen sensors such as those described in conductive ceramics: Oxygen sensors to aid in feedback control of fuel injection.) In dual-bed converter systems the exhaust gases are first reduced in order to eliminate the oxides of nitrogen; then they are oxidized with added air in order to eliminate carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons. In more advanced three-way converters individual catalysts accomplish reduction of each species simultaneously.

Catalysts are either platinum-group metals or base metals such as chromium, nickel, and copper. Platinum-group metals or noble metals are any of several metallic chemical elements that have outstanding resistance to oxidation, even at high temperatures; the grouping is not strictly defined but usually is considered to include rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, silver, osmium, iridium, platinum, and gold. Silver and gold, which with copper are often called the coinage metals, and platinum, iridium, and palladium comprise the so-called precious metals, which are used in jewellery.

In base-metal catalysts the active surfaces are actually ceramic oxides of the metals. Because platinum metals are extremely expensive, they are deposited on ceramic catalyst supports as salts and then reduced to finely divided metal particles.

For efficiency of conversion, extremely large surface areas are required. These are accomplished by ingenious micro-structural engineering of the ceramic support structure. Two types of structure are made pellets and honeycomb monoliths. The pellets are porous beads approximately 3 millimetres (1/8 inch) in diameter. With a single pellet having up to 10 square millimetres of internal pore surface area, one litre of pellets can have up to 500,000 square metres of support surface. The pellet material is often alumina (aluminium oxide, Al2O3). High internal porosity is achieved by carefully burning off the organic additives and by incomplete sintering. Honeycomb monoliths have 1,000 to 2,000 longitudinal pores approximately one millimetre in size separated by thin walls. The material is commonly cordierite, a magnesium aluminosilicate (Mg2Al4Si5O18) known for its low thermal expansion. The extruded cordierite structure is coated with a wash of alumina, which in turn supports the platinum catalyst particles. The surface area of the monolith is typically in the range of one square metre; however, this figure must be multiplied many times because of the porosity of the alumina on the surface.

Monolith supports are much more expensive than pellet supports, but they cause a smaller pressure drop in the exhaust system. Both types of catalyst support, because of their inherent friability, are susceptible to vibrational degradation. Containment of the supports is also difficult. A good seal must be achieved and maintained without imposing external stresses on the friable structure. 

Conductive ceramics: Oxygen sensors

Schematic diagram of a zirconia oxygen sensor used to monitor automobile exhaust gases. The sensor, approximately the size of a spark plug, is fitted into the exhaust manifold of an automobile engine. The thimble-shaped zirconia sensor, sandwiched between thin layers of porous platinum, is exposed on its interior to outside air and on its exterior to exhaust gas passing through slits in the sensor shield. The two platinum surfaces serve as electrodes, conducting a voltage across the zirconia that varies according to the difference in oxygen content between the exhaust gas and the outside air.


----------



## markqf1

Is magnesium aluminosilicate actually considered to be ceramic?
Is there any way to recover the magnesium or aluminium?


----------



## jbautosales

> Ok its me I'm here I bought a Diller Platinumill now all I want is to get out I have filed with BBB , Ripped off , online fraud , attorney general ohio no help don't want to pay a lawyer cause I already got spanked I also spoke to a detective in his town she said he's been known by police for 13 years and theres been a rash of Cats cut of cars there!!! BOB MASS.


 YES it's me on Ebay don't know what else to do


----------



## markqf1

Maybe you should look at what it would take to make it work.
Are you convinced that the process is no good or, is it more a problem with getting the machine to work properly?


----------



## Lou

Well Bob, I don't know that we can help you get your money back on the platinumill from that obvious fraud, but I do know that we can tell you how to recover PGMs from cats with ways that have been tried and tested. Should help take the bite out of your situation.

Welcome to the forum, there's a wealth of information here. Many pictures of processes, what the compounds look like, and first hand experience can be had here. If you've got questions on how to do something, just ask a question! You'll find this community to be very supportive of your endeavors and extremely helpful in doing things right the first time. I've been continually astonished by the quality members here--there's people from all walks of life having many perspectives. 

That said, make yourself right at home, stay awhile.


Lou


----------



## Froggy

Hi Bob, good to see you here, like I posted in the email, read, read, read, then ask, ask, ask I think your setup can be modified to work properly. you may start out with just a little material, the material in your pics looks like powder, that may clog your system, broken substrate will allow the acids to flow better, your battery charger will not do( it will cut on/off, you will need a rectifier, get a good used one or buy a new one, I have a25amp on the way, bought it from www.caswellplating.com (thx Rob!heavyshakes) they have different sizes, not sure what you will need What pump do you have? gallons per minute? you prob. dont have a good enough pump? You can find these pumps anywhere, a good low budget march pump should do http://www.marchpump.com/right.htm ,,,they have a dealer locator on there site.....find something non-metal to thread into those screw holes, use alittle liquid teflon with it. Hope this helps, Frog


----------



## aflacglobal

Welcome to the forum Bob. :wink:


----------



## aflacglobal

markqf1 said:


> Is magnesium aluminosilicate actually considered to be ceramic?



Refractory compositions to stand the high heat.


----------



## jbautosales

Thank you all for your support any other thoughts on how to put Diller out for good so nobody else gets ripped yes I will need help it I have to do this. later BOB :x


----------



## jbautosales

I have read all posts I used a wood splitter for decanning crushes them up pretty good then crushed the rest by hand diller said to roast in grill up to 300 degrees I let it go to 350 400 for 20 minutes seemed to work put in a turkey pan stirring now and then


----------



## jimdoc

I think you should be able to get it to work.
If you get the DVD from Action Mining it will
help with instructions, that is who sells the 
CLS26P anyway. They sell a book on CLS
leaching also that should give you some help.
Maybe if you try one column batches at a 
time, untill you get it right.
I plan on building my own system, and even
after hearing about the platinumills problems
I think that I will get it right. You just need to
do small scale practice tests first before you 
scale up. I didn't trust platinumills from the
start, it just seemed like a ripoff of Action 
Minings System IV, and didn't sound like he
had all the bugs out of his system before he
started his production. So don't give up on 
your system if it doesn't sell, you are at the 
right place to find help. What exactly is the
problem with your system besides lack of
instructions? Jim


----------



## jbautosales

Its late for me to ask this but is this leaching process worth the work it takes why do we want to do this it seems very hard to do and we are chancing loosing PGMs


----------



## jimdoc

I think that it will work. Action Mining has been selling
and using thier system for years. There may be a better
way to do it, if there is I am sure that somebody here
will find it. The testing and small scale start is the key 
to not loosing any PGM's. Make sure it works first. 
Mike from Action Mining claims that you can use
other than the CLS in the System IV, even aqua regia,
that I wouldn't try. But the CLS seems to be a safe and
available method. You should be able to test in a System
III type setup, that is a five gallon bucket with the plates,
quartz heater and an agitator. Jim


----------



## Froggy

I bought my quartz heaters(4x (300watt) for 13 bucks each and the thermostat for 18, from caswell, my 25 amp rectifier ran me 300, come on UPS!!!!! bought my plates and cls26p and dvd from action mining, I did find the plates elsewhere for cheaper, but I wanted to buy something from action mining  ,,, I feel kinda obligated, for some reason? the plates come in 12x12 and you cut them to fit, Oh I bought the filter material also from them,,, if you watch the video , they just use cut pvc pipe with a sheet of filter, took me awhile to figure out how simple this was, and how simple the entire system was... I would say the hardest part of this process will be having to wait for your assay and getting paid. As I said earlier in the post , you will have $ tied up with your material... I dont think anyone on this forum does this for a living? mabey Jimdoc? So the exact methods from start to finish havnt been posted, which would include all the little bits and pieces of info to turn a catalytic converter into bacon on your plate! Frog


----------



## jbautosales

Hi Jim This mill also came with no carbon plates or filter bags the guys say the charger won't work and the pump may not work also has been said it clogs up Thanks Bob


----------



## jimdoc

Bob,
I haven't built my setup yet. One question I had
was how the solution will go up all the columns,
when it leave the first at the top it seems to
be gravity that brings the solution down to the
next column, how then does it get forced up the 
next column? That may be one problem with the 
clogging issue. The other may be how fine the cat
material is, it should be in chunks to allow the 
solution to be able to pass around and through it.
You can get the plates and filter material from 
Action Mining, The Graphite Store also sells the 
carbon plates. I still need to get a power supply for
my setup. I don't plan on doing mass quantities so 
I may make a single or double column setup first.
Then make one like the System IV if everything works
good with the smaller setup, and if I line up enough
converters to process. Jim


----------



## Froggy

Problem solved! I have been pestering a few on the forum about how to heat up the cats to rid carbon, a few guys mentioned heat stips from dryers and rigging them up with a blower of some sort, well i was at the depot' and asked about such a thing and the guy looked at me weird and said, why not just use a heat gun? Low and behold, in the paint section they have 1000-1200 degree heat guns 29.95-59.95, I bought one took it home and let er' rip, WWHOOO'EEE that things hot, turned my black looking honeycomb white, i just stuck the end in the can and let it blow through, then did the other side, works for me,and cheap too...... Doesnt take long for the spit to sizzle...


----------



## hvyshakes1

how does it smell froggy when you use that heat gun? You know you are exposing yourself to all those toxic fumes? I hope you are wearing proper apparatus for this bright idea.........by the way I think thats a great idea!! But let us know how the fumes are and what kind of smoke starts to come off of the combs. Also, does anybody here have a system 3 or 4? All I know is after getting burned with this Platinumill and not recovering sludge or resins from the cat material I knid of gave up on the idea. I also talked with so many of the refiners and they say " anyone who has tried to leach pgms from cats has lost their shirt and found it not to be profitable at all" I just thought I would share this info with you all. Thats why these people smelt the ceramic. I say we get together as a forum and we start to look for a smelt furnace that can get to the degrees of say 6000 + or enough to melt all pgms. Then All you have to do is pour it into a mold and turn that "real metal" instead of sludge and resins into the refiner. This way you know for darn sure youve got metal. And...... all you are waiting for is your percentages now of platinum, palladium and rhodium content. Its as simple as that but finding something like this that is either electronically controlled to pour after a melt is hard to find. All you need is this and you can actually make more money instead of screwing with these acids guys. I did it, its no fun. I had a nice chemical bath with the platinumill too because two of the valves that werent put on right broke off and sprayed all over. i was running all 4 columns. Talk about acid burns? Yep, no fun guys so what i want to see hear is maybe a change of direction with us all if its possible. Lets all investigate and get a smelter that is not as big as the big guys. I know they exsist otherwise how are the small refiners doing it? They have what im talking about. In conclusion i think that doing it this way is much, much safer for all of us. Trust me, breathing this stuff is horrible and takes its toll sooner or later believe me. 

Rob


----------



## Lou

Ooh sorry. I hope it wasn't any nasty acid like concentrated sulfuric. That'll ruin your day. HNO3 and HCl (even when mixed) are tame compared to vitriol's effect on the skin! 

Anyhow, the highest melting point component that you would be after is the rhodium, which melts at a really darn hot 3600F (off the top of my head, but it's around there). That's as hot as it'll take to melt the alumina slurry. Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough platinum in there to sink to the bottom. Plus, that's an ungodly hot temperature achievable with induction, ebeam, and arc furnaces. Or oxy fuel, but that's expensive. It also means you'll need special refractories that aren't cheap.

I'd also rather work with gallons of concentrated acids than even a liter of molten alumina--the heat and radiation coming off of that will blind and burn you feet away.

Lou


----------



## Froggy

I didnt have my head sticking near the end to sniff anything!  Outside ,upwind works wonders..... The big guys (refiners) do not want anyone to be successful with this method and will tell everybody that theres no $ in it. It all depends on what you give for converters, cost to recover, cost to refine, these figures are very,very, variable yes you can loose money..... I am going to track all my converters $$$, run them , and see what I get, hope its at least 30% over what I will have to pay for the converters+cost, I'll see, Im only going to run lrg import, I figure 30 ($6,000+)should do, then get my assay,,,, if you filter and dry the slimes , you get a pebble material I think, I'm not sure how to do that yet, that s the product you want to send to the refiner. If I have made a decent percent, I will then get crazy with this and start running as many as I can......


----------



## hvyshakes1

Hey Lou im talking about this kind of system that I found tonight online after about 2 hours of searching. This should do the job!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone lets think about this type of pgm recovery this has got to be much safer than screwing with acids.

Rob


----------



## aflacglobal

hvyshakes1 said:


> I kind of gave up on the idea. I also talked with so many of the refiners and they say " anyone who has tried to leach pgms from cats has lost their shirt and found it not to be profitable at all" I just thought I would share this info with you all.
> 
> Rob




Herein lays the problem. Here's where it gets fun. Refining is the separation of materials. ( dirty version ) Has no one thought of the opposite yet. Please tell me i don't have to give clues.


----------



## Froggy

Link! Link! or just P.M me, i need it spelled out, Thx, Frog


----------



## hvyshakes1

http://www.rdoinduction.com/tiltpoursystems.htm


----------



## aflacglobal

The mans name is Robert Oakner. That looks like the F-16. Starts out about $ 40,000. :arrow:


----------



## aflacglobal

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=6234#6234


----------



## jbautosales

:? I watched action 's DVD again last night fell asleep half way through it but really tried to study the operation of these products and the clean up part SORRY but I think Mike is related to Diller!!!! it seems I would be unable to complete this process then can you see what it would take to clean up like 30 gallons of acids two weeks ago on ebay a guy turned down $13,400 for 600 lb of loose catalst that seems to me the way to go no mill no process no clean up Bob


----------



## Froggy

Harold posted this on another thread, seems a better fit here, ::::::::: You guys are missing the boat where it comes to dealing with this material by furnace. Instead of melting, you should be thinking about dissolving. That's the way silicon is dealt with. It melts at about the same temperature as platinum, yet it is put in solution at much lower temps, regularly, by dissolving instead of melting. Fluorspar is an excellent solvent, but keep in mind, it's just as hard on furnace lining as it is the charge. That's the problem with dealing with ceramics. 

One other thing that appears to be escaping common logic here is that even if you melt the materials in question, in spite of the weight of these metals, they rarely will agglomerate and collect in the bottom. That would be particularly true of something that is as finely divided as it is in catalytic converters. A collector of some nature may well be required to effectively recover the values if you resort to melting as the method of operation. That will require an operation to sort the values from the collector. Has anyone addressed this issue? 

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that most of you guys would be far better served to put your energy into recovering gold, even if it was only from electronic scrap. The investment you'll have to make to recover the platinum group is likely to be far more than you're prepared to pay, and its going to get harder and harder to procure the old cats unless the market does a serious turn-around.


----------



## BHARATPLATINUM

NAMSKAR ALL

I HAVE FOUND ONE POST IN INTERNET AS IT IS I POST TO AS BELOW


. A lot of problems some appear to have is getting the beads hot enough to melt. there is an easy solution(provided you have sun) that will not cost anything yet reach high enough temperatures to melt any rock or ores.. Most know that solar ovens use fresnel lenses to generate high temperatures by focusing the sun on to a small spot. the small one foot square ones are too small to be of much use in assaying but htere is a source of large ones available for almost nothing . These are the plastic screen fronts from projection tv sets. the screens consist of two layers of lenses stuck together, but easily separated.. One has just rows of straight lines through it, but the other has the circular grooves or rings engraved in it . this latter one is actually a large , powerful fresnel lens, that can be used to melt anything. (potential temperatures that are reached can be almost 9000 degrees with a 36" diagonal lens focused on a small spot).. I have used these to melt any type of small pieces rock. They can even vaporize pennies, which means you have to be careful not to focus on too small a spot. This will require experimentation to get the right results depending on the metal you are refining or assaying. great thing to play with when the sun is brightly out. There is no flame or torch pressure to worry about, and no impurities from any gas to worry about. It is also very fast. just rig up an adjustable frame for your lens and be carefull of what you focus on.. it will start fires anywhere. please use welding type glasses as the white focus area is exteremly bright and could cause eye damage the same as welders flash. When your not refining you can widen the focus spot to about 6" diameter and cook your lunch.

PLEASE GIVE A COMMENT 
BHARAT


----------



## Froggy

I dont know if its feasable, but is sounds fun as hell!!! finally a way to rid my yard of all those pesky fire ant mounds. Looks like you guys up north can only use this method half the year. Thanks, India Dude, you rock. I can find those big old projection tv's for free all over craigslist! 9000 degrees!!! sound like you can do alot with this! melting pgm's, burn the house next door from across the street, make a steam generator, roast hot dogs and marshmellows in seconds, the list could go on.... What do ya'll use these for in india besides melting rocks and cooking lunch?  I can see them on ebay now as a package deal, THE PALTINUMILL&SOLAR FURNACE COMBO only $16,995.99 not all parts or solar radiation included.......


----------



## aflacglobal

You guys are missing the boat where it comes to dealing with this material by furnace. Instead of melting, you should be thinking about dissolving. That's the way silicon is dealt with. It melts at about the same temperature as platinum, yet it is put in solution at much lower temps, regularly, by dissolving instead of melting.

Ever hear of ?

Exactly Frog !!!!!


Welcome to the forum BHARATPLATINUM


----------



## skippy

Cool. Maybe fresnel lenses would be a good way to melt the platinum into buttons. Cheaper to try than an oxy-hydrogen torch.


----------



## aflacglobal

:arrow:


----------



## daveerf

From the Science Department at Northeastern Illinois:

An ion-exchange method for selective separation of palladium, platinum and rhodium from solutions obtained by leaching automotive catalytic converters 


http://tinyurl.com/2hkbl4


----------



## lazersteve

5 M HCl =~ 16% (dilute 31.45% HCl with equal volume of water):

ie.: 500mL 31.45% + 500 mL of H2O = 1 L of ~5M HCl

0.4 M NaClO3 = 106.44 g/mol * 0.4 = 42.576 g of NaClO3 

1 mL of NaClO3 = 2.5 g

42.576 / 2.5 = 17.03 mL for 0.4 M

1000 mL - 17.03 mL = 982.97 mL of H2O to make a 0.4 M NaClO3 solution

Steve


----------



## Froggy

So Guys, I have a big old igloo cooler that I want to use for my tank, I can drill a hole for my solution inlet, drill a hole for an exhaust tube going outside, and it already has a drain hole I can use that will go to my pump, close the lid and no fumes! Will Igloo plastic be ok with the solution? It will help in keeping the solution at temperature also.....


----------



## Anonymous

I remember seeing posted on this forum several times that Pt will go into solution with Nitric acid when silver is present. What if you spray/dip or otherwise coat the cat material with silvernitrate, then heat them good and hot to decompose the said nitrate then treated with nitric to get your
PMs.

once again just thinking out loud.

Jim


----------



## alancj

What is the point of depositing silver on the catalyst? The nitric would just turn it right back into silver nitrate. If silver allows it to go into solution then perhaps it is the simple the presence of the silver ions.


----------



## jbautosales

Got this email from diller last night We no longer are selling the machine. You have caused us too many problems and have broken some laws along the way. You are evil and will have a fast path to hell. You have the wrong idea about our company, and It is unfortunate that 1 person had a bad experience with the machine and set out to ruin an honest company. I just think that you didn't realize that you actually had to put some thought into running the machine and a little labor. Obviously you do not have the intelligence level or are just simply to lazy to put the work into this process. I am sorry, I should have had you take an intelligence test before you bought the machine.
In fact I had a 2 hour interview with a company that shoots documentaries for the Discovery channel. I am flying to Houston to shoot a How to Video on this process. So it must be a scam. Right?
See you on T.V!!! I'll send you a free autograph, so don't worry This jerk needs to be put to sleep
I asked him to come to me or Rob Cali. to show us the thing works!!!!!


----------



## Froggy

Really, I live here in Houston and it will be a cold day in hell before he comes here and tries to do a special (which I doubt!), I will contact the Disc. channel myself,, (mike Rowe (dirty jobs) is my cousin. What a bafoon, I'm sure he quit before fraud charges taken by the D.A's office.... Why doesnt he "Man Up" and come back here to the forum and try to expalin his piece of crap machine.....


----------



## Froggy

I spoke to the gentleman that Harold reffered me to. They have been doing cats for over 15 years, they could never get any of the rhodium out. 0- zilch, nada.... they pulled the other pgm's off and then saved till they had enough (<1000lb) to go to a smelter that has an arc furnace. So the small timer will have avery,very difficult time if he doesnt have deep pockets, without the Rh. values being put in your pocket in the form of cash, small timing in this buisness will kill you, he did average 90% pt with just AR ,,, Frog


----------



## jbautosales

Hay Frog man can you believe this looser I already emailed them about him I love the dirty job shows


----------



## jbautosales

This is dillers email [email protected] if any body wants to make a comment to him


----------



## Platdigger

Back on Oct of 07 in the tread titled "Catalytic Converters - Small scale recovery/refining"

I asked this question:

"Platinumill, what percentage of recovery can one expect for the rhodium in cats with your system? "

There was no answer. I guess he had already left the forum by then.

Here is the thing, Platinumill was using the same chemicals as action.

Anyone Ask Mike what percentage of Rh his system will recover?
Randy


----------



## Froggy

Thats one huge question I would like answered, I saw a few figures from a company that sold to techemet (500 cats at a time) and were paid on the direct content , the #'s were huge, much more than I could have ever expected ... P.m me for more info, I dont want to start a panic! Recovery of the Rh is vital. Techemet is suppose to have some, flux capacitor,ion exchanging super dooper testing thingamajigy analizer than can tell all the pgm's in a sample the same day, the guy in charge of metals at this place said they get a check sent the same day after techemets fancy assay spits out the #s,,,, kinda funny, HONDA thats right, I said Honda!! sends him the check!!!! Guess techemet keeps the overhead cost by directly selling to the end user,smart guys... i think the guys I talked to this a.m that were doing this for 15 years were either subversive or they have never switched from plain ol' AR, and were not recovering the Rh? who knows?


----------



## aflacglobal

Froggy said:


> Really, I live here in Houston and it will be a cold day in hell before he comes here and tries to do a special (which I doubt!), I will contact the Disc. channel myself,, (mike Rowe (dirty jobs) is my cousin. What a bafoon, I'm sure he quit before fraud charges taken by the D.A's office.... Why doesnt he "Man Up" and come back here to the forum and try to expalin his piece of crap machine.....



I know exactly who he is talking about. Our old friend Gold writer. 
The earlier forum members will know who he is. Let him get tangled up with him. ROFLMAO. 
He's getting scammed and don't know it yet either. Oh the justice. 
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol .


----------



## Froggy

Well, sadly his brother passed 4months ago, he said he does nothing with cats now, but he did mention that you could put your hand in Ar for up to 10 seconds,wash it off and it wont hurt you! I didnt ask what his bro. died from, but I could just imagine? The guys I'm talking about are the Utah guys Harold mentioned, I dont think they were on here? your talking about platinumill getting hooked up with goldwriter, gotcha..... Steve, lou,harold, Irons HELP!, Anything solid on the rh recoveries with the action mining solution mix? I keep hearing conflicting stories. I would like to settle on a formula before this weekend, I plan on starting, I just want something that is easy on the lungs and eyes, like lemon juice! :lol: Well, I will take all precautions, but you know what I mean, I have never worked with chemicals ever! Just alot of lime with my tequila..  thx Frog


----------



## aflacglobal

The guy who is interviewing him is the same guy who invented the Cue cat scanning device for magazines. He also bought and reworked the company that makes them dam triple edge wiper blades that you see on tv all the time. Jovan is his name. He has a bad rap with investors around Dallas and Houston. He tried to get me in on a deal to build him a processing facility in tx. He's got the money, but he took it from others in a fu**ed up way. They will be perfect cell mates. Hey, maybe i can get old Gold toutor in on this too. Three blind mice, see how they run .............


----------



## Froggy

Crap! I can see the late night infomercials, Billy Mays pimping the Ronco/George Forman do it yo'self cat converter/juicer/burger combo! But wait thers more if you act fast we'll include this fine set of Ginsue knives that will cut open cat cans that never need sharpening,,,, but wait if you act in the first 5 minutes will give you instructions to make your own solar furnace for refining and throw in some Blueblockers to protect your eyes...... Geez...


----------



## aflacglobal

Don't forget the gold nibbler cd and some getto juice. :twisted:


----------



## aflacglobal

Now let me see huuuummmmmmm.

Got this email from diller last night We no longer are selling the machine.( wonder why ? ) You have caused us too many problems and have broken some laws along the way ( Yeah right ). You are evil and will have a fast path to hell ( now that's just messed up ). You have the wrong idea about our company, and It is unfortunate that 1 person had a bad experience with the machine and set out to ruin an honest company ( Let me get this right honest company. Dude, you use 2 x 4's and plywood. What did you do with the money for the real parts. I could have bought that stuff at lowes for $ 200 and that includes the 2 x 4's Dam, where's the quality) I just think that you didn't realize that you actually had to put some thought into running the machine and a little labor. Obviously you do not have the intelligence level or are just simply to lazy to put the work into this process.( To lazy. I would say any man that would stand over a fire with a turkey pan is anything but lazy.) I am sorry, I should have had you take an intelligence test before you bought the machine. (Oh if he would only say that in person. ) You don't tell clients these things. :roll: 
In fact I had a 2 hour interview with a company that shoots documentaries for the Discovery channel. I am flying to Houston to shoot a How to Video on this process. So it must be a scam. Right? ( You dumb ass )
See you on T.V!!! I'll send you a free autograph, so don't worry

I just don't know if i should laugh or what. Is he for real. Oh i might have some fun with this one. Reckon i can get him to fly to Atlanta and put on a show for a group of fake investors. OMG Yes Yes Yes. Let me ponder this for awhile.


----------



## Irons

aflacglobal said:


> The guy who is interviewing him is the same guy who invented the Que cat scanning device for magazines. He also bought and reworked the company that makes them dam triple edge wiper blades that you see on tv all the time. Jovan is his name. He has a bad rap with investors around Dallas and Houston. He tried to get me in on a deal to build him a processing facility in tx. He's got the money, but he took it from others in a fu**ed up way. They will be perfect cell mates. Hey, maybe i can get old Gold toutor in on this too. Three blind mice, see how they run .............



I have some cue cats. I was playing with the software the other day. Interesting device.

used to get them for free at Radio Shark.


----------



## Froggy

Send him to the South pole,or some nasty place in Africa,,, Enough of that loser, If he did things right ( better build,specific instructions, quality parts, availability to anser questions) I'm sure he would still be making these, what a joke. He better not show up in my town, We boys down here dont take kindly to northerners who are trying to pull the wool. Texas is a big state, we have alot of dirt and shovels are cheap....


----------



## markqf1

Now... I wonder why he stopped posting on this site?... MMM?


----------



## Anonymous

I do not trust anything just because it is/was on the discovery channel. They are entertainment and do not research stuff like this from what I can see. Do not take me wrong they have an excellent channel and when I watch TV it is usually DC or the history channel. They had a show about a guy I think Paul Newman, that supposedly made electricy from nothing when he actually just showed amps, and everyone knows you need amps and voltage at true rms to even figure out the power.

Froggy, Love Dirty Jobs.

Jim


----------



## Lou

Froggy said:


> He better not show up in my town, We boys down here dont take kindly to northerners who are trying to pull the wool. Texas is a big state, we have alot of dirt and shovels are cheap....




Note to self--don't piss Froggy off. 

One thing 'bout Texas that I take offense to is their arcane and utterly stupid glassware laws. Look 'em up Frog or ask a lawyer and you'll be really sad to hear that you can't own so much as a beaker. Not to mention that if you were to disassemble a coffee maker for the hotplate and the pyrex carafe you'd be committing a misdemeanor. 

I too like Dirty Jobs. Good show, makes me feel I've got it real good!


Back to the catalytic converter business: on this matter, I'm with Harold. I don't think making money out of cats is easy, if you plan on processing them for metals content and THEN selling the metals. It could no doubt be very profitable, but you have to weigh several factors, namely your efficiency, how much your spending per converter, and how much reagents (and their cost) you use in stripping them of values. 
I don't think there's an easy to way to get the PGMs out of them. I've worked with platinum and palladium on many an occasion (and rhodium less often), and I'm not here to fool you--they can be tricky, and putting them into solution isn't quite that easy. I do agree that ion exchange resins could be employed to concentrate the values, but I think it would require some good research as to which resin is best.

If I were doing it in bulk (let's say 1000 converters every month) and out for profit, I'd buy some big Nalgene 66 gallon or whatever they are poly drums, some drum heaters, some sort of pulverizer (jaw crusher, gyrator crusher), build my own damn roasting oven with a stainless conveyor belt, and buy the acids in bulk at 60 cents a gallon or whatever it costs. After everything is roasted, I'd dissolve away the substrate leaving Pt and Rh (and some Pd), selectively precip. the Pd from the solution (goes for refining). Then I'd part the Pt from the Rh with aqua regia. Fuse the Rh, go through the hoopla to get it to a form good for hydrogen reduction. As for the Pt, precip. and burn to sponge, then redissolve to refine. A lot of work, and most of the reagents go to removing the substrate. Either that or I'd set up for and try to prove the gas phase extraction on a grand scale. That method is highly efficient on the small scale, but it's also involved. Benefit is that it removes the metal from the substrate, not the substrate from the metal. Still a lengthy aqueous chem work up ahead of you going by that route, but it's easier to get purer product. I'm willing to be that techemet goes through the first process. Oh, they're probably assaying with ICP analysis. 

It makes sense that the more you do, the more you'll save on reagents and processing. I'm not here to dissuade anyone who's a hard enough worker to do them all by hand (Lord knows with rhodium at $8500 an ounce, I'm about ready to), but it is going to be hard work just as Harold said. You'll be busting your can for every dollar. 


Lou


----------



## lazersteve

Lou,

Funny you mentioned the fiber drums and heaters, just last Friday I was googling the prices. 

I've got another angle on your gas phase idea also. What do you think about setting up an induction rig to heat the metal in the honeycombs and pipe the chlorine thru the substrate? Maybe some sort of nonmetallic sealed piping system to get the Cl2 in while the honeycomb metal is hot and then send it on to the next station when it gets the now soluble chlorides extracted. You could do them in batches depending on the IH coil setup and your gas flow system.

One better may be an flat single ring IH that the honeycombs go by in a sealed environment containing the halogen. They get heated just by passing close by the IH coil and the gas combines with the PMs. It would require a lot of overhead to set up, but once you got the system in place and perfected you could process the cats very quickly. You would still have to work out the aqueous extraction routine also.

Steve


----------



## Platdigger

Steve, I am trying to follow your induction heating method. Induction works similar to microwave, exiting the molecules of a metal. The lower the frequency, the deaper the penetration. The higher the frequency the shallower, even to the point of a skin effect heating. The energy is induced. Do you think the little bit of dispersed metals on a honey comb substrate will heat up efficiently and or evenly?

Just trying to understand your thinking here.
Randy


----------



## Froggy

plug the ends and run your gas through these? http://rubbermill.com/stoppers1.html you guys are so far over my head! Oh- the oxford guy that was doing the supercriticle thingy emailed me, said he has been blocked, i sent a email to NOXX but no reply?


----------



## Harold_V

Froggy said:


> Steve, lou,harold, Irons HELP!, Anything solid on the rh recoveries with the action mining solution mix?



I'm no help. None at all. I had a philosophy when I refined, and it was much like that of the early day miners. Go after that which comes easily, and leave the rest for others. That's why I didn't mess with electronic scrap or cats. I stuck to silver, gold, platinum and palladium, all metals you encounter regularly, and are easily processed. I have absolutely no knowledge where other precious metals are concerned. 

I do have a keen interest in hearing how each and every person on this forum fares in their pursuit of cats. We need not all think alike---and it's good that we don't. Someone, somewhere, is going to solve this riddle-----I hope it's one of you guys. 

Harold


----------



## markqf1

I noticed on Action mining's cat processing video that the guy refers to 
platinum, palladium, and ruthenium. No mention is made of rhodium.
Oh well... I have 10 lbs. of cls26p just sitting here waiting to be used.
I have been waiting for the Sys. III for over three weeks now.
According to Jessica, (the lady that answers the phone when you call) they haven't shipped it because they have been waiting on a part.
I'm starting to think they must have had to build a new factory first.
For now, I'll just sit here and pat my foot , and wait.
Patience is not my best virtue.


----------



## daveerf

Heya Steve,

I found a chemistry forum with a chemist who claims to have tried the hot aqua regia method of PGM extraction from catalytic converters and also tried a gas phase extraction method. He stated he received a higher recovery rate of PGM's with the gas phase extraction.

His method of gas phase extraction involved using a stainless steel tube and taking pre-treated ( I assume he means roasted to remove the carbon and other gangue material) , crushed substrate and passing a hot halogen (CL2 ) at 400+C which collects the PGM's as volatile halide salts and are then passed through a cold finger at other end of apparatus, which deposit as a red brown crust.

For anyone wondering what a "cold finger" is, it's not the middle finger from a chemist that is having a bad day *grin*


----------



## jbautosales

Thanks for listening to my crying but I sent 66 $100 bills to him. The detective needs to know if there are any people that also bought one of these platinumills in order to go ahead with criminal charges there are looking for some body that is happy or not with it Thanks Bob


----------



## markqf1

:arrow: http://tinyurl.com/3audnc




AF


----------



## markqf1

I've read some posts about some of you that are building furnaces.
Is anybody set up to do cat mat fire assays yet?
I've been waiting to hear from GSP?


----------



## loco

bob, you know hvyshakes is in the same boat as you as far as issues with the platinumill. maybe contact him again.

-Loco


----------



## loco

since I heard about a chemical made by sybron chemical especially for pm I was wondering what you guys think about articles like this and maybe guys with a alot more knowledge than I can enlighten us all in how this may play out for many of us seeking a decent process for cats. By the way the chemical is called SR-3 resin, or maybe found under Sybron/Ionac SR-3 resin


http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6551378-description.html 

AF


----------



## Froggy

http://www.ion-exchange.com/service/pdf/Waste_Water.pdf interesting link, I will call afew places tommorow and dig more info out, Lou may know a little about this , he is a research chemist that works on waste feed, this stuff is safe to work with , thats fo' sure!!! her's another tid bit of information::::: The rich or pregnant water stream from the dewatering system is sent to an ion exchange system for separation of the precious or semi-precious constituents of the mixture of acidic FEW 41 and source material 27 . In ion exchange system 32 , selective resins may be used to separate the precious or semi-precious source constituents or products of the mixture, although activated carbon and other methods, including but not limited to precipitation, chemical reaction, purification, concentration, etc. can also be used. If resin separation is used, the pregnant water stream 43 is pumped through a column containing one or more selective resins. Depending on the nature of the pregnant solution and the species, which may be products or compounds of products, present in the solution, there may be numerous resin columns, each containing a different type of resin. For example, an SR3 resin could be used in a first column to retrieve gold from the pregnant water stream 43 and a second column containing DOWEX® M-4195 15 may be used to remove copper from the pregnant water stream 43 . If it was desired to clean the final liquid discharge of all ions in solution, an AMBERLITE® 400 column may be used as a final catchall. Moreover, certain metals, such as mercury, may be separated for recovery using either a resin column or activated carbon solution. 

Once a selective resin is loaded with the desired species, it is necessary to unload the products from the resin by methods understood by a person having ordinary skill in the art such as fuming, washing, chemical recovery methods, etc. The product unloading may be done at another location by sending the loaded resin to a processing facility. For example, the valuables may be removed from the selective resin by fuming, which is generally only economical when the recovered species has a high value, such as gold. With other valuables such as base metals, the cost of fuming the selective resin may be too high with respect to the value contained therein to prove economical. If fuming is not used, then the species may be unloaded from the selective resin using an appropriate solution


----------



## daveerf

We've discussed ion exchange resins for extractive metallurgy. There's a few to choose from and several proprietary, patented processes. Deciding which one is the most efficient (percentage of PGM's reclaimed), the easiest to use and most cost effective. I guess would require months and months of testing, a large amount of capital to perform all the tests , purchase the needed equipment and material etc. 

Just a side note, if you are buying the Sybron system pictured on the first page and having it installed. I hope you have ten or twenty million dollars or maybe a hundred million and a cost overrun budget of another ten to fifty million. Keep looking at that picture and dreaming lol

GSP has the best idea so far and I agree with him that if you are concerned with making the best profit, simply crushing the substrate to a fine powder, mixing until homogonized and getting an independent lab assay that uses an ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma) Mass Spectrometer of the homogonized powder, I think, is the best bet. I'm not sure about powder assays. If anyone knows if the homogonized powders can get a precise assay, let us know.

(Never and I repeat, NEVER send an unknown amount of precious metals to a refining company without an independent assay. Might as well ask them how far they can stick a laboratory glass stirring rod up your *edited in good taste* lol )


----------



## Froggy

Oh , I agree with gsp's method you mentioned 100%. but to start out in this you cannot use his method unless you have a ton of cash. The science of the sybron system can be used. Just use sr-3 only, it would just leave a combination of metals that would still need to be refined, the million dollar system you mentioned seperates each metal into each group. The resin for the general pgm's is sr-3, no testing required. Now after you have your metal combo ,send it out for assay and then to a refiner. Of course this is just my opinion I have formed after reading for 16hrs straight. But usually any thing done on a large scale can be done on a smaller one, the science is the same.. Frog


----------



## daveerf

Hiya Froggy, I think you misconstrued my post. I know for sure you can run a small scale operation by the ion exchange extraction or the gas phase extraction method. I just meant to say there are many resins and formulas to choose from and in effect, if you do try Sybron's method, then you are indeed doing testing. My main theme was to say "Read and research". Research and other's opinions can be very helpful. Please don't think I was trying to discourage you. In fact, it's the opposite, post as much as you can find on ion exchange and gas phase extractive methods.

I was also joking about the large set up and merely trying to elict a smile or laugh. 

I am glad of one thing though, that you are looking at other processes besides just the system IV by action mining. Like you said, he's not a chemist, the DVD makes no mention of Rhodium and have you talked to anyone that successfully used the machine that is not affiliated with action mining? 

Also, I have contacted many refiners years ago and most won't take sludges or liquids, if not all of them, as you have found out recently too.


Have you read in the news about many colleges are now offering free online courses? MIT offers several courses in Science. It's 100% free, you just don't get any college credit. I've been trying to find a course on Extractive Metallurgy but I've been busy lately and haven't tracked it down yet. Click the link below to find out more.

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Chemistry/index.htm


----------



## daveerf

In my internet searches, I have found two chemical engineer consulting services. One gentleman did the feasability study, engineering, construction, testing and startup maintenance of a pilot plant processing catalytic converters for PGM content in Virginia.

This other gentleman is an expert in extractive, hydro- and pryo-metallurgy and has several patents. He has experience in roasting, smelting, leaching, solvent extraction, ion exchange, crystallization, precipitation, and electrodeposition.

We could possibly ask them to join this forum?

Here's the links below to both their websites.

http://tinyurl.com/2dvnyl

http://www.cretser.com/sam/projects.htm


----------



## jbautosales

Yes Loco I'm in contact with hevyshack I think there were only two of these things build Thanks Bob


----------



## Lou

Interesting contacts there Dave!


As for the ion exchange resin, I've never been very much of a fan of them. They have their uses and I've worked with and studied their use when I was planning a solvent reclamation company (effectively in limbo). 

IERs can be used for PGMs, so can a lot of things, however, for me, it's the cost effectiveness. Without actually doing any testing and getting quotes for bulk materials, I'm shooting in the dark, but I'd wager that the would be comparable extraction efficiency for less cost by just dissolving away the substrate. That's what the big boys do (I know Heraeus buys industrial catalysts and dissolves away the substrate).


----------



## Platdigger

And they disolve away the substrate with?......sulfuric?.......I know this has been mentioned on here before, but can you refresh my memory?
Randy


----------



## Lou

Yes sulfuric acid solution with some HCl will dissolve it away. It requires heat.

I do not think the amount of rhodium and palladium lost is significant. Rhodium is very hard to dissolve with sulfuric acid even when in its sponge form.


----------



## Platdigger

Yes, ok, but palladium can be a different story right? Depending on the chemical state of the palladium of course. I have read in certain forms of oxidation it can be taken up in HCL. Yes?
Randy


----------



## Irons

Platdigger said:


> Yes, ok, but palladium can be a different story right? Depending on the chemical state of the palladium of course. I have read in certain forms of oxidation it can be taken up in HCL. Yes?
> Randy



Palladium will generate Chlorine from con HCl. Try it and see. Put some catalyst in a beaker and pour some con HCl over it. It worked for me with Palladium Sponge. You can always add some bleach to give it a kick.


----------



## Froggy

Help! Anyone take a guess to what this is:: The leach is inexpensive to produce and can be made almost anywhere. With a pH of –1 it is one of the most corrosive chemical compounds known. The unusual nature of the leach is that it is also buffered against all organic material rendering it safe to use and enabling safe disposal.

The single most important element of the hydrometallurgical method of removing metal from ore is to be able to get the metal in the ore into solution. Once in solution there are different ways to extract the metal. The system has been designed to selectively remove the dissolved metals with the use of designer resins. The designer resin industry has been extensively developed for the hazardous waste industry. We have found it to be an excellent, efficient and reliable method for removing the metals from our pregnant solution. I have the resin part down well, i just dont know what type of leach this would be?


----------



## Platdigger

"With a pH of –1 it is one of the most corrosive chemical compounds known"

I have seen that line somewhere...........hmmmm

Randy


----------



## Anonymous

Platdigger said:


> "With a pH of –1 it is one of the most corrosive chemical compounds known"
> 
> I have seen that line somewhere...........hmmmm
> 
> Randy



http://rockyledgemining.tripod.com/


----------



## Lou

Sounds like a crock to me.

a pH of -1 isn't that corrosive at all! Besides, an extremely negative pH doesn't mean how corrosive it is. A pH like that makes me think of dilute aqua regia 

Remember that pH is logarithmic in nature, so for every pH unit you go down, it's a power of 10 more hydronium ion. The amount of ionization correlates to how ''strong'' an acid it is, not how corrosive it is. HF is very corrosive, dissolving even glass, but it is a weak acid, with a relatively high pH (sulfuric acid is thousands of times stronger).

To me, a lot of this just reeks of companies intentionally using loaded words to sucker people. That's why I encourage you all just to pick up a general chemistry text and protect yourself from getting had.

Just a little bit of chemical sense is enlightening.


Lou


----------



## Platdigger

Awww yes! ....of course! Rocky Ledge.......not sure of this company.

Doesn't he use SSN? perhaps


----------



## markqf1

Frog,
Is not the resin a result of the leaching process?
You can bet the big boys know how and what and will not be willing to share.
Lou, 
Frog says"The single most important element of the hydrometallurgical method of removing the ore is to be able to get the metal in the ore into solution".
Wouldn't a bath of acid have to eat itself from the outside in?
If this is the case, then there would be no need to dissolve all of the substrate unless you intentended to recover all of the other metallic values.
Frog,
I conversed with a gentleman from a refinery that was familiar with several different" leach resins" including some from Dow.
He said that these resins could contain up to 12% pgm content.
Is this what you are reffering to?

I'm still looking for someone to do some" before and after" fire assays of my material to see how much it contains and what percentage, if any, that I have recovered .

Anybody interested?


----------



## Lou

markqf1 said:


> Lou,
> Frog says"The single most important element of the hydrometallurgical method of removing the ore is to be able to get the metal in the ore into solution".
> Wouldn't a bath of acid have to eat itself from the outside in?
> If this is the case, then there would be no need to dissolve all of the substrate unless you intentended to recover all of the other metallic values.
> 
> I'm still looking for someone to do some" before and after" fire assays of my material to see how much it contains and what percentage, if any, that I have recovered .
> 
> Anybody interested?



That is not necessarily true markqf1. Much depends on pretreatment of what you're extracting, and what you're extracting it with. There are acid cocktails that will not affect an ore, but will remove the fine values present in that ore, so long as they are not completely encapsulated by an inert material. I should also mention that Frog said this was used for leaching ore, not for leaching from a catalytic converter. It is incorrect to assume that they are equivalent processes. 

As for fire assaying...I'm set up for it except for the cupels and inquarts. 
The amount of assaying requests I see on this board makes me strongly consider purchasing a used ICP machine to do analyses for you all. Too bad the upkeep on those is $$. If only I could find a used one for 20 or below.


----------



## markqf1

Lou,
I read, as i'm sure you did, that action mining was leaching more gold than the fire assay said it should have.
This water souluble gold was a little different to contend with.
I read on a couple of other theads here, that pgm's could also be, in a certain sense... water souluble.
Do you think a fire assay would be representitive of these, if any are present?
Irons?


----------



## Froggy

Well, I have been reading and asking. After 17 pages , there is still not a difinitive answer on the Action Mines cls26p ability to recover RH.. Now, RockyM, claims to have this special compound that will do it all, , unlike some Elixer salesman(diller) that try to come on here and yank a few chains, I understand the dow resins , in a commercial applicatiom each tank ( http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=usplastic&category%5Fname=20726&product%5Fid=5179 ) has its own resin formula for a particular ion particle, pt,rh etc...one particular particle is combined with the ion, the rest of the metals collect at the bottom , are collected and moved to another tank that has a resin designed to pull out different metals. From what I understand (for the low budget guy) I should be able to leach my substrate with his formula ( http://rockyledgemining.tripod.com/testreport.pdf ) ( this one happens to be gold) I believe the leaching solution and the resin are combined and immediatly react, thus settleing the materials ionized. ... You take these resins (dry them I think?) and very slowly pour sodium borohydride (belgian Bomb) to clean off any non pgm's.... REVISED!. Frog


----------



## markqf1

I could see that happening.
How much do they want for the pgm formula?


----------



## Froggy

Thats something I am working on.. they use to ship, not anymore ,,, restrictions have gotten tougher over the years. I will keep you posted. Sure would like to get a sample out to a few of you guys soon...... Frog ---------- Oh , sorry (the formula) i havnt a clue? ----


----------



## markqf1

Thats a weird looking frog :lol:


----------



## Froggy

Its what I sent to platinumill :lol: ,After sending it out, I always seem to get it back after awhile...


----------



## markqf1

It looks like something you would want to give away :lol:


----------



## Froggy

Secrets out! (thx platdigger daddy o') It's just SSN... salt
> water and nitric acid. 7 to 1 ratio. the formula
> is on our web site at http://
> There's you a free $7000 Rocky Ledge Mining formula well i wonder how it works on rh? With resins? or just carbon plate it? How safe is this formula? Dont answer I'll do my homework and find out by researching the forum , ,I'm sure its listed here somewhere,,,, frog


----------



## hvyshakes1

Will somebody in this forum do something already???????????????????????? My GOD all I see on this forum is a bunch of people that are investigating nobody is doing crap. We have been told already the leaching process is not 100% recovery of the pgms in catalytic converters by leaching is not sufficient enough to extract all pgm content. Why is everyone here still after this method??? I took a nice beating to my pocket book buying the platinumill, and learned the hard way about this method. Bottom line you cant do it its impossible as of right now. There are all kinds of methods for extraction out there but they are not cost effective this is what the whole thing is about. You cannot keep costs down to operate with the chemicals and time it takes. This is why the big boys smelt these cats. Why dont you guys try and find a small scale tilt pour furnace they are out there and try this method. Its by far the most cost effective and the safest. Seriously though, all this internet research for articles and blah blah blah and still nobody in this forum is anywhere near a solid way to take these pgms from the cats. Somebody give me a guy that knows what the hell hes doing and I swear I will spend the money to come out and meet you and pay you for your time.


----------



## hvyshakes1

Froggy,

When you called me to tell me you saw the numbers your friend got for those cats i didnt beleive you but now i do read this article.....

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=39378


----------



## loco

hvyshakes, I thought last we talked that you had it all under control and knew the best way to leach and were already processing? what happened? what did you assay show? did you just give up on that idea and toss in the towel on leaching and going to focus on getting enough cats to send to a smelter?

This is my opinion of leaching from my research. yes it may not get 100% of metals but let's take the toyota v6 cat mentioned in the article you posted there is 1.5 gm of Rh. the Rh content alone would be valued at $412.81 at spot value for the content. and given that say that same cat bought by larger places is being offered around $130. and figure you say you go a crappy 80% of over all content. on rh alone you would get about 330-130 spent for cat itself. it would look like a $200 profit or so to me cut the production cost out for a single cat that doesn't sound bad to me but maybe that's because I'm thinking that add in the Pt and Pd content and you are probably looking at more likely a 300-400 dollar profit and multiply that by say 10 cats even every other day and at the end of the month it appears to me about a 52,000 profit before expenses of processing. and to me that sounds like a decent income. after all by year end on small scale and providing my numbers are close would look like about 624,000 a year on that small of a scale. and of course those are all based off processing toyota v6 cats alone but still. and on the other side how long would it take any one of us providing it seems profitable to increase production beyond 10 cats every couple days? 

hvyshakes bud don't take this as an attack as it's not my intentions I'm just trying to follow your thought process and speaking aloud. I understand your frustration as it's taking some time but heck I would be attempting action mining process if it wasn't averaging around 12 degrees here temp wise.


----------



## Froggy

Theres no one on the forum making a buck at this, YET! I'm waiting on carbon plates,, In the meantime, I was just looking for a more solid answer on rh recovery, Trust me, I will be running cats as soon as ups shows up today or tommorow, with or with out the ideal leach solution. It shouldnt take much to correct your system, get after it. It appears that the rocky ledge guy has been selling a simple formula, I read complaints about it, but no one was complaining about the results of his formula, so caveat emptor, they bought something that they could have researched and found it was very cheap to duplicate, sound familiar? So give us a break. For the few people that were complaining about his pricey formula ,,there are a few who are using it in commercial applications making$$,, he has set up lrg leach operations worldwide. And i'm not 100% sure that his formula is just ssn? I posted that from another thread on another forum that was sent to me.. Frog BTW, that link you provided is old news, I posted that link on this thread a month ago.


----------



## Froggy

I just spoke with "Mr.Dow" the guru at Dow, he said that a Iodide complex works great with Rh and pgm's,all metals become highly polarizable, and that the Dowex 21kxlt resin would prob. be the best product to collect the pgm's. for what we are trying to do. Finally, a real expert!! He started telling me the science of it, I got kinda lost, but he will send me an email with more info, I will post it as soon as I get it . Frog P.S Thank you Jesus!!!


----------



## Anonymous

gustavus said:


> snip
> 
> 
> Speaking with his son, he informed me the leach was heated .
> 
> Some where I have Dr. Lashleys son's telephone number, he lives in New Mexico and has copies of his fathers works available for sale.
> 
> Now that you guys are vesting an interest in SSN as a probable leach, I might suggest some one invite forum member jamesrobinson from the Uk to once again become an active member of the forum.
> 
> Some of jamesrobinson earlier posts from this thread.
> http://tinyurl.com/2xe2pg
> 
> My thoughts for collecting the PGM's would be to ball mill then run the fines through an electrostatic separator, subjecting the heavys to a heated pressurized leach such as SSN
> 
> I'm personally interested in using SSN for leaching gold and silver because of its low toxicity. I had posted the documents from Lashley in an earlier post expecting some response in its use.
> 
> Seems every one prefers the stronger acid leaches - where there's smoke there's fire.
> 
> Regards
> Gill





LOL LOL LOL

CC


----------



## Irons

Lou said:


> markqf1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lou,
> Frog says"The single most important element of the hydrometallurgical method of removing the ore is to be able to get the metal in the ore into solution".
> Wouldn't a bath of acid have to eat itself from the outside in?
> If this is the case, then there would be no need to dissolve all of the substrate unless you intentended to recover all of the other metallic values.
> 
> I'm still looking for someone to do some" before and after" fire assays of my material to see how much it contains and what percentage, if any, that I have recovered .
> 
> Anybody interested?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not necessarily true markqf1. Much depends on pretreatment of what you're extracting, and what you're extracting it with. There are acid cocktails that will not affect an ore, but will remove the fine values present in that ore, so long as they are not completely encapsulated by an inert material. I should also mention that Frog said this was used for leaching ore, not for leaching from a catalytic converter. It is incorrect to assume that they are equivalent processes.
> 
> As for fire assaying...I'm set up for it except for the cupels and inquarts.
> The amount of assaying requests I see on this board makes me strongly consider purchasing a used ICP machine to do analyses for you all. Too bad the upkeep on those is $$. If only I could find a used one for 20 or below.
Click to expand...


If only I could win the Megabucks lottery....

ICP-OES/ICP-AES

http://www.colloidalsciencelab.com/LibertyII.PDF

Varian’s Liberty Series II ICP-OES robust. axially viewed plasma delivers improvements. in detection limits and linear dynamic range.

Equipment mini tutorial

http://pyrite.chem.northwestern.edu/analyticalserviceslab/ASL%20Instrument%20Manuals/ICPAES.pdf


----------



## Froggy

Haa, I emailed that guy 2 days ago!! Ha :lol: , Funny, Hope he shows up,, Frog OOOHH no irons, i'm turning into a nerd, that piece of equipment impressed me! :wink:


----------



## Froggy

Hey gustavos, why was that deleted? CC deleted? I read it, it was pretty good,, I Invited mike from action mining onto the forum, along with Mr Dow


----------



## Lou

They're pretty nice aren't they Irons?

My friend's work has about 20 of them, and 48 GCMS amongst many, many other machines. Probably 6 million a year upkeep on them, more with standards' prices these days.

Ever used one (ICP) Irons?


----------



## hvyshakes1

Never said that I had it under control and i was producing loco. I dont even recall that. I have given you guys advise instead of buying the little setup from action mining and going out and getting quartz heaters like froggy did with a rectifier and carbon plates etc. You just need to stir the stuff occasionally it just needs agitation like our friend Paul at rockledge told us. Now Iam however going to make myself clear to this forum right now that I personally see no reason to leach pgms from cats and have rendered that process ineffective completely. What I am in the works of doing with a guy out here in california is to use a furnace and he can build them to reach 2600 degrees. Not enough to melt pgms but..............hee is the catch. You preheat the furnace(propane) then add the pulverized cat material. Then You add your borax to clean away all the impurities and then you add lead to the mix. Lead will take in all the pgms from the pulverized cat material so you dont have to heat it to that 3000 + degrees to melt it. Then, you pour out the lead with the pgms contained in it. Your cupel is worthless now and caked with glassy cat material and borax. Now you take a graphite cupel and throw your lead button in there and the graphite cupel will soak the lead in it and leave your pgms behind. Now you have a button of Pure PGM material to send to a refiner to seperate rh,pd,pt. Its as simple as that period!!! Its like fire assaying just like it . And it works! 2hrs max start to finish vs. breathing all those hazardous chemicals and spending a fortune on chemicals and getting sick. The furnace costs about 500 bucks and he builds to suit. I will visit his facillity in a few short weeks and learn this process from him directly. Do you see now why I keep reiterating that leaching is not effective to pull all pgms out of the cats??


----------



## Lou

Oh dear. If you think breathing lead fume is much better than aqua regia, you're sorely mistaken. In all cases, wear a respirator!!

You are using lead; copper is also used and then done electrolytically. The values are concentrated in the slimes. Those are then processed chemically.

Lead is cheaper than copper, but it poses a disposal issue. Additionally, the lead oxides formed will dissolve in the borax glass. Both are collectors for the platinum group, but I would prefer copper. I have mentioned elsewhere on my experiences with copper as a collector.


----------



## Irons

Lou said:


> They're pretty nice aren't they Irons?
> 
> My friend's work has about 20 of them, and 48 GCMS amongst many, many other machines. Probably 6 million a year upkeep on them, more with standards' prices these days.
> 
> Ever used one (ICP) Irons?



Back in the 70's when I was in school, AA was the standard. I started Grad school but decided to do something more exciting for a living. I never did get to use one. Actually from reading the tutorial, there's not too much difference from AA except that its emission instead of absorbtion. Emission spectroscopy was passe in my time, now it's come full circle.
Actually for refining, some of the older equipment might be quite serviceable. Everyone needs the most sensitive instrumentation for environmental work but for refining, a few PPM accuracy is just fine.
GCMS has always been around, but who can afford one except for a lab with the resources to keep it running. We had a full time senior tech to run the one we had and it was a huge machine back then.


----------



## Lou

Oh, they're much more compact now with nice computer interfaces. The GCMS I use is a Clarius 7800 by Perkin Elmer. I think it was 79K brand new and that was a few years ago. 

ICP is all the rage for trace metals. The company my friend works at is the premier (Severn Trent) lab for environmental testing. So they use a good bit of ICP there.


Lou


----------



## Platdigger

OK Lou, back to this disolving the substrate deal for a bit....

If the substrate is disolved in acid........now we have silica loaded acid?

What I am asking is, what to do with this mix? 
I can see if the acid can somehow be recycled.......this may be viable.

Is there a simple way to free the acid of the disolved substrate?
Randy


----------



## Lou

Right, my mistake...I'm getting off topic, sorry!

No there's no silica per se present, there is an aluminosilicate that is solvated. HF alone dissolves silica.

I would spot test the pregnant solution for any values, neutralize it, then it should be safe to dump down the drain. Going after the acids is not worth it, when they're spent, they're spent.


Lou


----------



## aflacglobal

God i love this Thread.


----------



## Froggy

Me too, can someone plz. change the title, I get tired of seeing "platinumill" anyone here have the POWER? I still think chems are the way to go, I will work on specifics but some can be re-used and they can run below $1 buck a gallon if bought in bulk,,, ther are alot of mining companies that leach the ores, Alot. Fire is used for final refining, leach is used to get the product out on the cheap, sorry HShakes, I'm sticking with the chems for now, following the examples of all the poor 3rd world boys. Wheres Steve been lately? Frog


----------



## loco

I figure it would come down to mostly a numbers game. cost to do production, amount of cats that can be done per time, time it takes to process, and cost to rid of waste, and ultimately the end recovery from the process

anyone have these rough numbers. oh and thanks froggy for getting this info started. would be pretty tough to beat $1 a gallon and not to mention it's renewable.


----------



## aflacglobal

Determination of Platinum, Palladium,
Rhodium and Titanium in Automotive
Catalytic Converters :arrow:


----------



## hvyshakes1

lou,

I will not question your use with copper for pulling pgms out of the substrate vs. lead. As far I know this process is much, much, easier and safer and percentage wise its the best for recovering metals. This theory of leaching is tried but not a true way to go if you are trying to be cost effective with it. You are better off selling them for street value because you will basically break even with this method. Also, has anyone found a refiner willing to buy the sludge here in this forum? Has anyone got any quotes as far as how much it will cost to run a icp assay on this material? You guys do not understand what you are getting into seriously...................Its not cost effective you will see all of your profits start to go down the drain in this process you have chosen to call the best way to get pgms out of cat material. Its by far the most ineffective way out there as far as overhead expenses are concerned. Yeah the solutions are reusable but you still need to strengthen the solution again with more CLS 26p or whatever it still never ends. Also you have neutralized the solution by bringing the ph down with hydrozine or sodium bicarbonate but this DOES NOT RENDER THIS SOLUTION DISPOSABLE TO THE DRAIN BY ANY MEANS!!!!! You are STILL draining hazardous waste down city drains and they will find you and fine you for this soon it doesnt take long. You also need a permit (california) I dont know if this applies in your state most likely it does. Oh and another thing, do you really want to spend 8 -10 hrs a day leaching to get a result? thats half a day and then you still dont see your true results. You have rhodium in your solution still that you havent recovered. By firing the substrate its quicker more recovery %. Whatever you all decide to do great. We will see which method prevails mine or yours and thats when you all really do something instead of talking on this forum about the ten million other ways to leach whether it be with AR, Halogen salts, HCL, Nitric Acid, Sulfuric acid and what ever clever mixes that are used. Bottom line you will be sad with your outcomes. Mike from action shows you a video on leaching but doesnt take you further because he himself knows that leaching is not the way to get full recovery of your pgms. Just call him and ask him this question you will hear it for yourself. Hes in the business to sell you a theory and kilns, ovens, carbon plates, mining equip. etc. Thats why if you pay attention hes saying with the rest of the cat combs to dry them and send the comb to a refiner so they will be happy to refine your combs further because you cannot i repeat CANNOT get it all out with these mentioned methods of extraction. I will write a book if this method I decide to use goes smoothly. I will let this forum know my progress throughout the entire testing. I will have photos to post also something I havent done yet on this forum. Getting burned with the PLATINUMILL has taught me the expensive way. I have talked with countless refineries,miners,chemists etc. And so far this method IS the way to go. Time will tell. Good luck to you all. Stay tuned......................

Rob


----------



## loco

Rob,

how big is this 500 dollar tilt furnace? how much/many cats can it handle? how much lead is needed?

-Rich


----------



## Froggy

Rob, your constant closed viewpoint aired out is getting old, its one thing to give a view point, but it appears you are the God given authority on what to do with cats all of the sudden, (Its not that I am smart, I just stay with problems longer! Albert Einstein)Plz. explain to me why most all the mine companies in the Entire World LEACH the ore???? Mike at action mining is not an expert in leach, the guy I talked to today IS the main chemist at DOW ( yes thats right "THE MAN") He really knows whats currently going on in leaching ore or cats,,,, have some patience and dont run out and buy anything just yet, throwing money at things will not produce the best results. He said Rh is not as hard to get out as everyone thinks, its just most small timers do not have the right temp,ph, or formula,, there are a few complex leach's that will get out over 99% of all metals in an ore/substrate. Have you read the rocky ledge testing data? Have you interpreted this data and its findings? Do you know how a resin pulls specific pgm's from an ionic state? Do you know or have you studied the specific effects of the many resins that are available , why and how they can choose the specific targeted metal and ignore all other including organics(ie. carbon etc) resins are amazing products that old timers know nothing about...Do you understand what I mean by a solution being loaded and pregnant, and if it is fully pregnant how to test for it? Have you studied one I ota' besides someones web page thats trying to sell you something? Look, you bought a piece of crap and now your the expert, Sorry but losing money doesnt make you the authority on any subject, it just makes me wonder what foolish act you may make in the future,(Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing! A.E)) good luck Shakes, you'll need it. Oh, and thanks whoever changed the Title, Excellent.. Frog


----------



## aflacglobal

Froggy said:


> Albert Einstein



Leave Albert out of it. :lol:

Yahooooooo 20 Pages. I think we got a record here.


----------



## Froggy

Sorry, Its just that the significant problem he has cannot be solved at the same level of thinking from which he created it..  Hmmm........I will leave ya'll with this, i'm getting some sleep tonight!!


----------



## Platdigger

HAHAHA....get a load of this new title.!....

OK, resins are great, the right ones, used the right way, will work.

But hey, lets get everything into solution first.

I mean if the resin has nothing to collect.....whats the point.

I think once we get a successful leach, we can check our results with something simple like zinc, or even hydrazine.

Then once we know we are 90 percent or better at recovery......a guy could start thinking about these exotic resins and the like......yea?
Randy


----------



## Platdigger

Concerning the download "Determination of Platinum, Palladium, 
Rhodium and Titanium in Automotive 
Catalytic Converters"
BTW thank you for this Aflac!

What is mg g−1?

mg is micrograms, is g-1 kilograms?

If it is, then the cat they tested in the chart at the bottom of the document would have run about .7 gram of rh in a cat with 2 kilograms of substrate.
And about 4.5 grams of pt.

Am I reading this right?
Randy


----------



## Lou

mg^-1 means miligrams per gram of something. I don't know what because I've not yet read the paper. Anything to the minus one means one over that, right popular engineering notion.



Rob,
I'm not advocating the use of resins (which can work), or leaching the values. Two of the three methods I've suggested are what industry does: smelting with a collector like copper, steel, or lead, and dissolving the substrate away leaving your PGM powder as a silt on the bottom. That's then refined and the spent waste acids are dumped. If there is any resin used, it's for stripping minute quantities of palladium out of the spent acid.
I've done that process before and I'm not afraid to do it again with pictures if need be. I'm currently working on doing the halogen extraction of values out of PGM bearing materials--working on the principle that I'm ''gas phase leaching'' the values out. I do have pictures of that. 


As for what you put down the drain, what I was talking about doesn't need anything special. It should contain iron, magnesium, and aluminum--commonly found in water everywhere and components of ''hard'' or mineralized water. I have personally worked on disinfecting waste waters and am familiar enough with what can and can't go down the drain. 


Lou


----------



## jbautosales

none


----------



## loco

yep that is the hard part with alot of suits. you can take them to court and figure you are getting your money but may never see it. Granted alot of effort you may be able to get his wages or income tax garished but still. and you can't go after the tow shop he works at because it's not his but his uncle's.


----------



## Froggy

Lou, i'm sure the halogen solution thing your working on is first rate. leading egde technology and will be implemented by many if and when you decide, thx.... Plattdigger, you 100% correct, we are right on the edge with this, we know what we are trying to do, just need the tool to do the job, I have sent out another email to Mr.Dow, if that doesnt work loco is only a few hrs drive from him, we'll get it soon.... That link I sent out should give a few guys on here an idea, but the iodine complex would be nice to work with with a ph of 4-5,, may take a little longer but safe and cheap. Also I liked the part that your carbons get pushed out of the wayand the resins grab hold of the pgm's before they attach,nice, i will contact the U.S mining guys today also.


----------



## Froggy

Jbauto, he commited fraud, send the damn thing to the D.A's office and let them stare at it all day,,,,, pester the D.A to drag his ass in court and have the D.A make him produce saleable pgm's products with it, he cant , the system sucks, he will also have no satisfied customers that he can use as a defence to this charge. Provide evidence that he ripped off the idea from action mining and get Mike to give you a report of why his works and why dillers doesnt, (a sworn affidavitt) may cost you a little but it would be well worth it, if all else fails take him to judge Judy or the like, 5K, and I think you get paid right there. This would be a great T.V case!!! they are always looking for something that isnt a apartment/rent /car issue.. You may be a superstar!! Haa... :lol: Also diller will get his BIG T.V appearance that he is always talking about! ha, what a shmuck..


----------



## Irons

I was at the local feed and seed store yesterday and got to talking with one of the owners about the difficulty of getting chemicals. He said that fertilizer is almost unavailable and the 7% Iodine solution that he had been selling this time of year for lambing disinfectant will no longer be available because the meth labs use it in their cooking. So if you're interested in using Iodine for PM leaching, you better get it while you can.


----------



## Froggy

Here's the ABC's for you Rob.. .. http://www.nma.org/technology/gold_production.asp ------------------------- Irons, i guess we will have to buy meth to do our leaching!


----------



## Froggy

Hres agood one! http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7166145-description.html


----------



## hvyshakes1

Its one thing froggy if you yourself knew what the hell you were doing and then attacked me for me views. You call me to get info on something you know absolutely nothing zero about. I give you the info because I AM knowledgeable in the process, matter of fact I can say I AM an expert. You will see for yourself soon when you try to do this method. Im not saying dont its good to learn something you dont know. Anyway Ill show you guys the method soon. Stay tuned.

Rob


----------



## Froggy

1. I never said I knew what I was doing, On the contrary I posted I didnt.. I'm just trying to copy tried and true methods 2. I never attacked you for your views, just your bold statements that we are wasting our time and that you know this and want to be our savior without one bit of evidence or links to any evidence to back up your thoughts on this. I on the other hand have been Reading ,reading,talking to real experts& posting links and research from experts in the field and the lab that pose quit a contrast to your opposing views. Loco(Rich) asked you a few quiestions concerning the furnace that you have mentioned, I have asked you a few question concerning resins, you have failed to respond to either and you have failed to support your theory with anything other than hot air and an attitude of "We'll see" or "I'll show you" none of which play a particular role in finding a valid solution for any members here trying to find a viable solution to make a profit on catalyst substrate. BTW. my carbon plates will be here today and I should be up and running tommorow, and you? Frog


----------



## Lou

It's tried and true that lead works, same for copper. Both (more often copper) are used industrially. Thing is, I don't agree with Rob's saying it's cheaper to use the lead. They (the EPA, your municipality, hell even your neighbors if you're not zoned right) can nail your ass to the wall if you're using 2000*F and VOLATILE (meaning it's got a vapor pressure!!) lead to collect values. There are stringent guidelines for dealing with lead. You'll need to have a fume scrubber (many thousands of dollars), periodic inspections, etc. It gets worse if you employ other people!



As a general note of caution to you all considering iodine, make sure you CYA very well with a business license and proper documentation and can explain all of your glassware because it's now illegal to own elemental iodine in ANY quantity. New DEA regulations, which really are pretty stupid since anyone who really wanted iodine need only get potassium or sodium iodide, but thankfully 99% of those damned methcooks aren't smart enough (if they were, they wouldn't be ruining people's lives/hobbies/ causing extra bureaucratic red tape, etc. instead they'd have real jobs!)

Lou


----------



## Irons

Lou said:


> It's tried and true that lead works, same for copper. Both (more often copper) are used industrially. Thing is, I don't agree with Rob's saying it's cheaper to use the lead. They (the EPA, your municipality, hell even your neighbors if you're not zoned right) can nail your ass to the wall if you're using 2000*F and VOLATILE (meaning it's got a vapor pressure!!) lead to collect values. There are stringent guidelines for dealing with lead. You'll need to have a fume scrubber (many thousands of dollars), periodic inspections, etc. It gets worse if you employ other people!
> 
> 
> 
> As a general note of caution to you all considering iodine, make sure you CYA very well with a business license and proper documentation and can explain all of your glassware because it's now illegal to own elemental iodine in ANY quantity. New DEA regulations, which really are pretty stupid since anyone who really wanted iodine need only get potassium or sodium iodide, but thankfully 99% of those damned methcooks aren't smart enough (if they were, they wouldn't be ruining people's lives/hobbies/ causing extra bureaucratic red tape, etc. instead they'd have real jobs!)
> 
> Lou



Any business that uses 50 pounds or more of Lead per year must file reports with the EPA.
No exceptions.


----------



## Froggy

Ha, Its going to look pretty funny, me in my lab coat and respirator in my garage with tubes, barrels etc,,, I have a S.O that passes through my culdesac everyday, I'm sure i will be getting a little attention, but thats ok I know most of all the guys, I worked for the S.O back in the early 90's and I know how to handle it, I'm tight with TECQ, here also. But Rob being in Cali. is a whole other story! We did a huge tree removal job for Edison power up in Arrowhead a few years back, any of the guys that were caught smoking ciggs. were sent home immediatly! Cali. is the worst place you want to do anything......


----------



## loco

Cali has some of the strictest EPA regulations in the world. I wiki'd it the other day. The laws there are super strict. Make sure you cross all your "T's" and dot all your "I's". I would have to imagine if they are that strict then they also would probably have stiff penalties for it as well.


----------



## markqf1

Stay tuned.
Soon it won't just be California.
It's happening everywhere else too.
Sooner or later, it will all be federal laws instead of state laws.
As for the unwanted contributions to our cause by the meth industry...
you have to show a drivers license just to buy 1 package of sudafed(they keep it behind the counter) here in Ga.


----------



## Froggy

Really ignorant, you can buy anything online, weed,pills, steroids etc have it shipped right to your door thanks to the easy going Canadian law or corrupt Mexico ways,,, damn near impossible for the law to do anything, it takes a federal court order to open and examine your mail,,, like they are going to do that for 1 oz of weed, A class c misd.. .... I can buy anything through the net, even a hot foreign chick!!! 8)


----------



## Irons

Froggy said:


> Really ignorant, you can buy anything online, weed,pills, steroids etc have it shipped right to your door thanks to the easy going Canadian law or corrupt Mexico ways,,, damn near impossible for the law to do anything, it takes a federal court order to open and examine your mail,,, like they are going to do that for 1 oz of weed, A class c misd.. .... I can buy anything through the net, even a hot foreign chick!!! 8)



If Froggy suddenly disappears from the board, we will know what happened. :twisted:


----------



## loco

yeah he bought some of all the above and when the credit card company got wind of the mail order chick they called the house and his wife answered. that would be why he'd come up missin' lol otherwise I think we're all stuck with him here.


----------



## Froggy

I have come to a conclusion with action minings Cls26p formula, I will be running it for 30 cats and then I will get an assay. If the Rh doesnt come off with the rest of the pgm's, the I say action mining is just as bad as the platinumill guy, think about it , why would you pay 8K for any system and formula that doesnt get the Rh? what a waste. And Mikes idea of getting 40-60% of the pgm's and sending in the substrate to a smelter to recover the rest is absurd and borderline ignorant, A smelter (techemet, etc) will only take very, very lrge amounts of material, they pay you on the assay of the material crushed and assayed. You would have so much money tied up waiting to gather enough to take to the smelter, absurd for the small timer, I have been told that the cls26p is a nitric substitute...hmm Frog (Shakes, dont get too excited by this statement)


----------



## markqf1

Thats what the guy who makes it calls it.
I'm not sure but, I don't think AR works on RH, so maybe there's some truth to it.


----------



## markqf1

Oh yea,
He says he will sell you the recipe.
Wow!


----------



## Froggy

Hey Lou, Irons others, check out these lab guys http://www.aaassaylabs.com/reputation.htm sounds like they know their stuff, check ou there published prices! WHOEE!


----------



## markqf1

Looks like I could build a furnace cheaper than that.
Maybe one day...?


----------



## Lou

I don't know if they have the most expertise at it. You know what they say: there's always someone smarter, faster, better 

Their machines seem really old too, but if they work, they work.

And see their prices? That's why I said if I had an ICP machine I'd be making a killing. 


Nitric substitute is a sissy way of saying it is a salt with nitrate in it. All you do is acidify and you have a nitric acid solution. Duh.

Aqua regia does dissolve rhodium to an extent and so does sulfuric, I've done it personally on several occasions. In my opinion, the best bet for getting rhodium into solution is to halogenate and then dissolve it in HCl. That means chlorination/bromination at high temperature.


Lou


----------



## Irons

I tried recovering PGMs from cats in 1978 with AR and decided it wasn't worth the trouble on a small scale. Nice to see nothing much has changed in the last 30 years.


----------



## loco

I agree the equipment appears dated. and it would be tough to find a company that boasts about being 3rd rate. But what do I know. I guess as long as the end product is accurate and reliable that's all that matters.


----------



## Harold_V

Irons said:


> I tried recovering PGMs from cats in 1978 with AR and decided it wasn't worth the trouble on a small scale. Nice to see nothing much has changed in the last 30 years.



You, too, eh?

Harold


----------



## Irons

Harold_V said:


> Irons said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried recovering PGMs from cats in 1978 with AR and decided it wasn't worth the trouble on a small scale. Nice to see nothing much has changed in the last 30 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You, too, eh?
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


Funny, I was just about to commend you for your comment on the subject.

Harold is right. The best to all of you and I hope you all find success.

I'm even crazier. I try to recover PGMs from placer deposits. They're free except for the expense of recovering them and I still can't break even. I don't see how anyone can pay for cats and expect to make a profit on such a small margin, then have to take a beating from a refiner in the end.

I do it because it is my pleasure. I would starve if I had to make a living at it.

One trip to the emergency room this summer cost me over $1000 because of Arsenic poisoning. I was trying to be careful and if I had the equipment to evaluate samples, I would have not bothered attempting to digest that particular material.

Be Careful.


----------



## Platdigger

Irons, Harold, let me ask you this......were you able to recover any rh from them back then?
Randy


----------



## Irons

Platdigger said:


> Irons, Harold, let me ask you this......were you able to recover any rh from them back then?
> Randy



I don't know if they were using any Rh back then. I was attempting to extract the Pt. Palladium, if there was any was only worth $60. per ounce at the time. I was recovering an average of $20. in Pt. per converter.

Platinum was about $225. per ounce and much like today, the prie was rising at a steep rate until 1980 when the prices began to come back to earth. I see a very similar situation today.

There are people investing a lot of money in precious metal recovery who may take a beating if there is a serious correction in the near future.


----------



## Froggy

Irons, what were your placer deposits assay'ing out at? cyanide works wonders on the ore down in honduras


----------



## hvyshakes1

Now maybe since there is a change of tune with leaching for pgms on this forum from cats you all will soon believe me and change over to the method i described. I talked with a guy this weekend also at the Central California Gold Show at our fairgrounds and he said yes this is a very effective way that I have told you guys, but he also said to start in small quantities at a time until I get the hang of it and then go bigger and bigger. Which makes sense. I can hardly wait til I start this process. 

Rob

You dont count punches in a brawl, you just know who won because hes still standing.

by,
Rob Hancer


----------



## Froggy

Haa. .I was wondering how long before you chimmed in, we had a few side bets going,,,,, hope there's no hard feelings....first one to a profitable check wins! Frog


----------



## Harold_V

Platdigger said:


> Irons, Harold, let me ask you this......were you able to recover any rh from them back then?
> Randy


My experience was brief. A friend, also a refiner of sorts, brought me a small amount of beads that he had removed from the cat on his Buick. :? (He was of the opinion that he was better off without the cat.)

I roasted the beads, then dissolved what would dissolve in AR. I don't recall the results now, this having been many, many years ago. Late 70's, as I recall. At any rate, the only thing that sticks out in my mind is that the solution was not easy to filter, and there wasn't much metal present. I can't even recall if I found platinum and palladium, although I did extract values. It was painfully obvious to me that I would be wasting my time screwing with them, particularly at that time, when they weren't as readily available as they may be today. 

Hoke suggested that Rh did not dissolve in AR, so if there was any present, I certainly didn't find it. My experience with traces of Rh agree----I've boiled it in AR for an extended period of time without dissolving any. If I was to venture a guess, I may have had ten grains, tops. It came from some silver jewelry, which was commonly plated back then, to prevent tarnish. 

My mindset with cats was the same as refining electronic waste. There are far better sources of precious metals that will provide a larger return on your time-----and that's where I went. It isn't likely to work for everyone, if for no other reason, things are very different now than they were then. Small refiners were unknown, and benchmen had few options as to where they could send their wastes for either recovery, or to sell them. They took a beating when doing so----especially if their materials were "contaminated" with platinum. The mint would penalize the sender if any were contained in the shipment, so they not only didn't receive credit for the values, but received discounted pay because they were included. By sharp contrast, I was in the right place at the right time, and could serve the jewelry trade without penalty. Most benchmen create traces of platinum group metals in the course of doing business, and it became legal for the common citizen to refine gold without a federal license. In a sense, I drew a royal flush. 

For once in my life, everything fell in place without effort. It isn't unusual for me to proclaim that the only thing anyone has ever given me in life is a bad time. Gold refining was clearly an exception.

Harold


----------



## scrapman1077

I spoke with a guy at a cat processor, he told me they only work with heat to recover the PGMs , the power lines running into the place are HUGE. I think they just make dore bars from the cat materialand send it off for the refining.
Also I think it was on this forum a guy talked about a copper refinery the fed the ground cat material into the copper melt to claim the PGMs.


----------



## Froggy

Seems like heavyshakes would want one of these or a little bigger? http://cgi.ebay.com/50kg-tilt-induction-heat-Smelter-metal-casting-furnace_W0QQitemZ200199613294QQihZ010QQcategoryZ633QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem looks like steve could make one of these?


----------



## Platdigger

Both very true I'm sure Scrapman. I read a while back that the Stillwater mine in Montana was gearing up to run cat material with their platinum ore from their mine. Makes sence to me. Mix a higher grade ore with what you already have. Must be what is and has been happenning in South Africa too.
Randy


----------



## Platdigger

Frog, a little overkill for lead smelting. Although I am sure it would probably work. Perhaps just turn the power way down.
Randy


----------



## Froggy

Experimental 

This furnace was initially designed and constructed as an experimental furnace for steel processing with a 200 lb. capacity.

The furnace is comprised of a refractory lined foundry ladle with porous plug gas stirring and two electrodes to generate the D.C. plasma arc.

Steel processing tests were conducted under a government contract to produce ultra low O and S, low inclusion CN7M test blocks. Subsequently, the furnace was converted to be used for aluminum dross processing trials.

For dross processing, a carbon lining was added and pilot tests were conducted.

After these tests, the furnace was converted back to steel processing configuration and then shipped to a foundry for plasma processing tests.

The furnace versatility and portability has enabled it to be transported to various locations around north America.

Our experience with plasma processing theory and practice is invaluable to clients wishing to investigate the potential of this powerful tool.

Contact us to discuss the implementation of plasma processing in your unique application. 

Experimental plasma furnace at university.


Schematic diagram showing cross-section of experimental furnace.


D.C. Plasma Arc. 




http://www.nuprocorp.com/products/plasma/plasma.htm HMM 200 lb at a time, but for steel, wonder if it could be used for cats???????


----------



## Froggy

Wonder what part the mop bucket does? haaa :lol:


----------



## Platdigger

I believe what the bigger operations are using for cats is a carbon arc furnace. They just throw them in whole. The iron, and I supose any nickel becomes the collector metals for the pgms.
Randy


----------



## daveerf

After researching for hundreds of hours (ok, it might only be 79 hours but it seems like hundreds lol ) by searching the internet I have found the following:

Rhodium is only in 3 way converters which were introduced in 1981. All converters from 1975 til 1981 contained only Platinum and Palladium.

Some other interesting PGM content I found in reading some US Government Mineral Reports is that the early Catalytic Converters (from 1975 to 1980's) contained a 2 to 1 Platinum to Palladium content ratio with an amazing swing of content from as little as .033 troy oz. of PGM's to an astronomical .33 troy oz. of PGM's ! 
I've also read that the loss of PGM's due to the life of the converter averages about 10% . This would make them worth approximately from $40.00 to $400.00 each at present prices. The technology to coat the PGM's in the early catalytic converters was crude and inefficient, allowing some to be loaded up with a large amount of PGM's. 

Now turning towards the more recent converters. I found another article that stated Toyota uses 1.5 grams of Rhodium on the average converter and GM uses .5 gram on average.

Looking at dozens of pages of companies buying scrap catalytic converters, the highest price I found for an average GM (small) was $64.00. The Large GM was $100.00. Average price for a GM then is approximately $82.00. Now if the average GM has .5 gram of Rhodium and 1 gram of Platinum (the Palladium is negligible , we will just use that for cost of chemicals, resins, labware, transportation, materials etc. etc.) Taking into account once again the 10% loss , this translates into approximately $150.00 to $200.00 for the average GM at today's spot prices. With the lower end being if the Platinum content is lower than 1 gram. (However, don't forget Iron's comment that the prices can crash at any moment too)
You also won't recover 100% either...
Please understand this is all educated guessing from many different government reports and industrial articles too.

[/quote]


----------



## Platdigger

Great post daveerf! ....also good work.
Randy


----------



## markqf1

Here's a good price guide dated 2-7-08.
http://www.autocorebuyers.com/prices.html


----------



## daveerf

ah, now that would make the average price for a GM of approximately $110.00. that buyers are paying Mark. Still looks like a substantial profit depending on costs and time to process.

The induction furnace seems a possible way to go as this will take care of the carbon and gangue contamination. Lou mentioned using copper to gather the PGM's and I have read in many different places that copper is used to gather the PGM's too. The cheap cost of the electric to melt as well as speed looks like good cost feasability. 

So you crush substrate, melt fast in induction furnace with copper, then perform the hydrometallurgical separation.

I have a question. You can inquart karat gold with silver and less nitric is needed to dissolve the silver than if you used copper. Can you use silver in the melt to gather the PGM's, to use less nitric too?

I realize the Palladium would dissolve too but then you would only have the Platinum and Rhodium to separate in one process and Silver and Palladium in another. 

I swear I'm gonna use da atomic chart symbols one of these days lol


----------



## Irons

daveerf said:


> ah, now that would make the average price for a GM of approximately $110.00. that buyers are paying Mark. Still looks like a substantial profit depending on costs and time to process.
> 
> The induction furnace seems a possible way to go as this will take care of the carbon and gangue contamination. Lou mentioned using copper to gather the PGM's and I have read in many different places that copper is used to gather the PGM's too. The cheap cost of the electric to melt as well as speed looks like good cost feasability.
> 
> So you crush substrate, melt fast in induction furnace with copper, then perform the hydrometallurgical separation.
> 
> I have a question. You can inquart karat gold with silver and less nitric is needed to dissolve the silver than if you used copper. Can you use silver in the melt to gather the PGM's, to use less nitric too?
> 
> I realize the Palladium would dissolve too but then you would only have the Platinum and Rhodium to separate in one process and Silver and Palladium in another.
> 
> I swear I'm gonna use da atomic chart symbols one of these days lol



Some research done by assayers have found that Gold gave the best recovery of PGMs, followed by Silver. In the old days when the Spanish were plundering South America, Platinum was a big problem. It would make the Gold brittle and difficult to refine.


----------



## Irons

Interesting source Harold. I got my cats the same way. Before it became illegal, some performance minded car enthusiasts would empty their converter of beads or just put in a straight pipe. I knew a guy who was doing the conversions and he supplied me with a steady if not large quantity of beads to test. I was working at a university at the time, so I had access to equipment and reagents.


----------



## hvyshakes1

I just love it when I can say I told you so. SO who won the side bet? What were the odds? LOL!

Rob


----------



## Froggy

I'm slowly switching over to the dark side! The problem with leaching acids is the fact that the PGM's are diffused into the substrate all the way through, seems a common misconception is that they are plated on the surface, to get all the pgm's out require destroying the substrate with acids , but that creates a whole new set of problems. I understand Mike at Action Mining process and why he thinks its a better to do it the way he shows, hopefully the small timer can collect enough pgm's to pay for the converters, and like I mentioned before the pay day would be from the smelter. Now , recoverery of pgm's in high amounts through high pressure autoclave is possible but that is not for us small timers. Rob , how do you like the 200lb plasma arc furnace?


----------



## loco

Lou said:


> It's tried and true that lead works, same for copper. Both (more often copper) are used industrially. Thing is, I don't agree with Rob's saying it's cheaper to use the lead. They (the EPA, your municipality, hell even your neighbors if you're not zoned right) can nail your ass to the wall if you're using 2000*F and VOLATILE (meaning it's got a vapor pressure!!) lead to collect values. There are stringent guidelines for dealing with lead. You'll need to have a fume scrubber (many thousands of dollars), periodic inspections, etc. It gets worse if you employ other people!
> 
> 
> 
> As a general note of caution to you all considering iodine, make sure you CYA very well with a business license and proper documentation and can explain all of your glassware because it's now illegal to own elemental iodine in ANY quantity. New DEA regulations, which really are pretty stupid since anyone who really wanted iodine need only get potassium or sodium iodide, but thankfully 99% of those damned methcooks aren't smart enough (if they were, they wouldn't be ruining people's lives/hobbies/ causing extra bureaucratic red tape, etc. instead they'd have real jobs!)
> 
> Lou



hey does anyone know what the EPA regulations would be for useing the furnace with copper, or silver instead of lead?


----------



## Froggy

Rules, We dont need no stinkin rules down here..... just shut the gate and let out ole' blue, he will warn you if any of them folks come near,,, in texas "no tresspassing" with a locked gate is a legal way to shoot first and ask questions later, and all the epa,tecq, fire marshals etc know it,,,, very rarely will they go onto a property that is locked up, they have no rights......... and if they do they are tresspassing and anything they find will not hold up in court,,,,,,But the easier way would be to check with your local fire marshall, they will direct you to your local air quality controller, here its TECQ and they are easy to work with... EPa is federal and they just set the rules, your local boys enforce them and they can help.... Frog


----------



## Irons

loco said:


> Lou said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's tried and true that lead works, same for copper. Both (more often copper) are used industrially. Thing is, I don't agree with Rob's saying it's cheaper to use the lead. They (the EPA, your municipality, hell even your neighbors if you're not zoned right) can nail your ass to the wall if you're using 2000*F and VOLATILE (meaning it's got a vapor pressure!!) lead to collect values. There are stringent guidelines for dealing with lead. You'll need to have a fume scrubber (many thousands of dollars), periodic inspections, etc. It gets worse if you employ other people!
> 
> 
> 
> As a general note of caution to you all considering iodine, make sure you CYA very well with a business license and proper documentation and can explain all of your glassware because it's now illegal to own elemental iodine in ANY quantity. New DEA regulations, which really are pretty stupid since anyone who really wanted iodine need only get potassium or sodium iodide, but thankfully 99% of those damned methcooks aren't smart enough (if they were, they wouldn't be ruining people's lives/hobbies/ causing extra bureaucratic red tape, etc. instead they'd have real jobs!)
> 
> Lou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hey does anyone know what the EPA regulations would be for useing the furnace with copper, or silver instead of lead?
Click to expand...


probably the quickest way to get in trouble is to get crossways with the code enforcement officer. It doesn't matter if you're right. I had to go to a town council meeting for a citation . They asked my why I was there because my property is zoned industrial. I said a citation is a citation and to ignore it, even if i'm right would get me in trouble. I have not had a squeak out of them since. He was just screwing with me.


----------



## hvyshakes1

I swear I thought this forum was full of people who knew what the heck they were talking about but it doesnt seem so. This is the same as running a stuipid charcoal barbque what are you talking about with the epa now??? You guys werent concerned when you guys thought you would leach this stuff with all those acids now you are complaining about epa nonsense to me about my method?? If you all have tried any method here(which I highly doubt) it would be something but to not try anything and then say all this bologna is absurd and its getting comical to see what most people here are writing after googling all these sites like patentstorm.com etc. to see what all kinds of scientists have done or are doing etc. but nobodys trying any of these methods just researching this website should be called http://www.howtogetinfoonsomethingyouhaveneverdoneinyourlifeandgettingtheinfoonhowtodoitfornothing.com

:lol:


----------



## markqf1

Heavyshakes,
Well, most of us are here to try to learn.
Since you already have it all figured out , I guess that doesn't include you.
I didn't sink 8 grand into what somebody promised me.
I'm running my own experiments for myself (with assays) so I will not have to guess or take someone else's word.
If I could afford to run out and buy a 80,000 dollar machine, I would probably buy two. Just because you weren't able to leach any material doesn't mean it can't be done. Obviously, the easiest way to lose is to gamble.


----------



## Lou

Yeah, best to play it safe Irons.




OK guys, the problem with using silver as your collector is (drum roll please) COST!! To process a large amount of converters milled/crushed to dust would require a darn large amount of silver. If you've got a couple 1,000 oz. bars lying around God Bless, but I don't think you need to be refining to make money.

Copper...3.40 a pound...silver (does quick mental math ) $275/lb. Both are pretty dense so you don't get much volume out of it. Copper is much cheaper and lead is 12 times cheaper than that (make sure you use antimony free lead--antimony is hell to deal with, trust me!). Lead is bound to give you the most disposal problems.

Both silver and copper work nice with induction though!

As for your EPA regs, well you guessed it--yes you will have some regulations which won't be that friendly. They consider silver and copper solutions toxic waste. Thankfully, we're not idiots and we understand that silver and copper can both be a.) sold, b.) reused. I never throw away copper, even in solution form. Even if I don't want to recover the metal, I'll still make the oxide and have some fun with the thermite 




Rob, I'm not quite sure who you're directing your last post to or why you're even making it. I get it, you think your way is better. It may be.

However, you're stopping just short of calling us armchair speculators: there are plenty of people here that have done cats before, maybe not with lead, but have done the leach method amongst others. To say that we all are just regurgitating information gleaned from the 'net is not only bull, it's also insulting. I already responded once to this and told you what I have done. If you don't believe me, that's just fine with me; I'm not here to convince you, when I have yet to see any work from you. I've posted photos of a miscellany of things here and other forums, some PGM related, some not. I can also say I've worked with EVERY member of the platinum group in some form or another. While I can't vouch for others here, I'm more than willing to consider their suggestions and appreciate their hard work and research. It's one thing to tell people that their process is wrong when you've got proof that yours is superior, but I've yet to see your process implemented on the small scale. 

All I can say to you is: SHOW ME THE PLATINUM!! And let's see the rhodium and palladium too.


----------



## markqf1

Amen!!!!!


----------



## lazersteve

Shakes,

I have processed a few cats myself as tests. I have successfully been able to precipitate both Pt and Pd, albeit small amounts. 

I'm a firm believer in researching every aspect of any process before committing to any one process and then upscaling the reaction that works the best for me. I think it would be foolish to blindly decide on any one process without hard facts and yield data before moving forward. A process that works for a large refinery may not be right for the small scale home refiner looking to process cats as a hobby. For me it's more about learning the processing of the PGMs as opposed to learning how to process cat material for a profit specifically. By learning these general techniques associated with PGMs I can better process other PGM scrap with better yields.

In short, everyone here may use a different process for their cats, the point is that we all end up with the PGMs. I know you are in this for a profit, and you most likely know that I am not. For this reason we will both undoubtedly have different approaches to the problem, that doesn't make either one of us right or wrong, we just have different goals in mind.

Steve


----------



## markqf1

Steve,
Very prudent of you to point out that most of us here are looking for knowledge to help us in the future. If there was a "magic formula", there would be no need for further discussion. I , like everyone else, has to make a living ,and for now, will not be giving up my day job anytime soon.
Teamwork has great advantages.
Mark


----------



## Froggy

Ok, I'm running a few cats tommorow, Lou send me a p.m if you want to assay this material and post the results,,, will you have the extra time this week? Frog


----------



## markqf1

You guys are making me look real hard at "actions" fire assay setup.
In the long run....?


----------



## loco

well as for myself, I never claimed to know anything about noble metals. heck I'm a communications contractor that's hobby is learning and with a hair brain idea I chose to see what I could find on processing converters and scrap gold and silver. I found this forum which with guys like steve, and gsp, harold, etc, all guys with lots of knowledge that share it openly. So I have been sitting a spell. trying to absorb a small amount of all the info mentioned on this board.

In reguards to processing converters I have been going at it with an open mind. Not closed! not thinking one is better than another but trying to evaluate all methods I find both here and abroad. Heck I've even asked questions here and not had them answered at all both via pm and here in the open forum and haven't had them answered especially about Rob's furnace method. Would I like to make it my means of income....absolutely. Am I betting the farm on it....nope. 

Refining all together interests me and seems like something I would like to learn alot more about and maybe if/when the time comes maybe work into making it a business. But I have a ways ago. And until then I'll be adding more wrinkles to my brain (if the old story I heard about knowledge adding wrinkles is true..lol.).


----------



## aflacglobal

hvyshakes1 said:


> I swear I thought this forum was full of people who knew what the heck they were talking about but it doesnt seem so. This is the same as running a stuipid charcoal barbque what are you talking about with the epa now??? You guys werent concerned when you guys thought you would leach this stuff with all those acids now you are complaining about epa nonsense to me about my method?? If you all have tried any method here(which I highly doubt) it would be something but to not try anything and then say all this bologna is absurd and its getting comical to see what most people here are writing after googling all these sites like patentstorm.com etc. to see what all kinds of scientists have done or are doing etc. but nobodys trying any of these methods just researching this website should be called http://www.howtogetinfoonsomethingyouhaveneverdoneinyourlifeandgettingtheinfoonhowtodoitfornothing.com
> 
> :lol:



You know i am usually one to make quick judgements. Here lately i have been trying to correct some of my ways of thinking, But i wish you would shut the hell up with that negative thinking. If you are a man of business it would not suprise me why you are where you are at in your little venture. 

Someone will moderate this one, 

*Indeed! Someone just did. Please refrain from using vulgar language. We are a gathering of intelligent beings -----not a bunch of morons. I am personally offended by the words I just deleted, including the attachment. Above all, you should know better. 

Harold*

and we should approach the terroist with with candy and kind words. Don't forget that childern. 

You appear to be somewhat delusional, unable to sort that which is acceptable, and that which is not. 

The topic of dicussion is NOT terrorists----and we are not dealing with terrorists, so your comment lends nothing to solving the problems at hand. You, as a moderator, should not be part of the problem. *You should be part of the solution.* What part of this conversation is hard for you to understand? If you understand the conversation, why are you fanning the flames?

Harold

No actually this is my first interjection into this topic. Maybe you should stay in your own conservation. Not that i am trying to disrespect you , but i get tired of hearing your what is right views expressed as much as the next person. I actually liked it better when you weren't a moderator myself. It seems that once given that appointment that you seemed to take on this persona of super moderator. I do value your wisdom, but sometimes that crabby attitude you have toward others is a real motivation killer. That's what i don't like about our friend munson there. His higher than thou attitude. Some people post for the first time and you just slap lay into them. Sometimes people need understanding and motivation not chastising. Not that you do this all the time. But for some reason it's in your words. I wait most of the time to see what the moderator lead maybe on a topic before i just proceed with god given authority that you seem to have had magically disposed upon you.

Maybe you need to work on your people skills. Who knows. I'm thru with this kiddie discussion with you. Just a dam shame it had to be here, but i never really like to hide things anyway.

Like this remark :arrow: You appear to be somewhat delusional, unable to sort that which is acceptable, and that which is not. 

Or :arrow: What part of this conversation is hard for you to understand? 

delusional ? Maybe your not following this close enough. The guy is acting just like you, right now. See It ??????????


----------



## Anonymous

Please email me that pic [email protected]

thanks.


----------



## Harold_V

Gentlemen, and I use that term loosely;

The processing of cats presents problems that are likely well beyond the ability of most home refiners. There's a good reason why those of us that have refined for some time have avoided them, wouldn't you say? I'm as interested as anyone in picking up all that free money, but I also understand my limitations. I also have a sense of understanding about the notion that you're going to get rich refining catalytic converters. That's no likely to happen, no more than all the people were successful in the gold rush. Damned few made money with gold----although many were very successful in providing provisions for those that wanted to strike it rich. 

My advice to each and every one of you is to move very slowly, and don't get invested beyond the amount of money you're willing to lose. The chance of regaining your investment is not good, regardless of the direction you take. Look at refining as a pleasurable hobby, and keep your eyes open for the opportunity to move beyond if that be your dream. If you attempt to force grow an operation, it's most likely to fail. 

For the time being, there are folks here that are doing their best to resolve the problems with processing cats. Each and every one of you should afford others the opportunity to express their views, even when they may make no sense at all. It's possible someone will come up with a process that works beyond expectations, although I'm of the opinion that won't happen. Remember, there are metallurgists and physicists that have worked with the recovery of values from cats for years, applying a level of expertise that is unlikely to be found in the common man. Keep in mind, they have at their disposal any and all kinds of equipment and funds to further their goals, unlike the hobby refiner. Armed with that thought, you might consider that the chance of stumbling on to a process is not good, but it certainly exists. 

I think each and every one of you need to step back, take a deep breath, and stop the sniping at one another. The ongoing argument serves no good purpose, and serves to polarize the readers. 

Keep it clean, folks, and have respect for one another. 

Harold


----------



## hvyshakes1

I promise this entire forum that i will give you the method after i have mastered it. As for the 8k yes iam frustrated and it bugs me to see people chasing this theory when it just cannot be done 100%. Its frustrating. I dont want it or dont want to see anyone get burned in the forum or waste time on the leaching process anymore. and i am willing to show all of you this method soon. this is my promise.

rob


----------



## Platdigger

Aflac, I would say that was uncalled for ...at best.
Randy


----------



## Froggy

Forget posting, I will fly out and see it , then beer's on me!!


----------



## aflacglobal

Platdigger said:


> Aflac, I would say that was uncalled for ...at best.
> Randy



Oh i would agree. I listened to him for like 20 something pages and all i hear is boasting and negative remarks. Some people don't listen to words of enthusiasm and encouragement only to have people with negative views tear them down. I think everyone tried to smooth his anger about his situation to the point that it just needed to be checked in a not so nice way.

He's just lucky i don't have the button or he would be more than gone by now. You getting anything from his negative views ? i sure ain't.

The first step in any research project is to research. Not jump right into the process. That's what they call a basis for a theory. Not buying a machine without doing the research that he needed to do in the first place.

Not my fault he got munsoned.


----------



## loco

ok since some of the links I've found lately that the substrate is wash coated. that being said why wouldn't leaching be possible? and if it's wash coated on what is the purpose of some of the processes like action mining and a couple others recommending crushing of comb? I can understand the burning off the carbon buildup to make it easier for the acids/leach/resins to do their job.


----------



## Harold_V

loco said:


> ok since some of the links I've found lately that the substrate is wash coated. that being said why wouldn't leaching be possible? and if it's wash coated on what is the purpose of some of the processes like action mining and a couple others recommending crushing of comb? I can understand the burning off the carbon buildup to make it easier for the acids/leach/resins to do their job.


I'd seriously consider the degree of porosity of the media. If it's relatively open, it's entirely possible that the values have penetrated the material, at least partially. I may be mistaken, but I believe they're applied as a solution. By crushing fine, all surfaces are exposed, which should yield a better extraction. If that be the case, a (gasketed) filter press would certainly be a valuable tool to facilitate the removal of all the solution from the processed (leached) fines. 

I do not know that I'm right, nor am I working on cats. Just providing something to think about. I processed a high grade gold ore years ago--and had to do exactly as I've mentioned in order to get full extraction. 

Harold


----------



## aflacglobal

loco said:


> ok since some of the links I've found lately that the substrate is wash coated. that being said why wouldn't leaching be possible? and if it's wash coated on what is the purpose of some of the processes like action mining and a couple others recommending crushing of comb? I can understand the burning off the carbon buildup to make it easier for the acids/leach/resins to do their job.



Is the wash coat not made up of a complex of these materials. What i mean is i'm sure that it is not applied in coats or layers like Palladium, platinum, Rhodium in order from top to bottom, but in a combination structure. Am i wrong ?

If it were applied as a complex structure would it not be easier to dissolve this way ? Kind of like inquating.


----------



## loco

aflac, that is my question exactly since some of the media I have found note the comb as being "wash coated" that would seem to be the best. to simple disolve away the wash coat. here are a couple of the articles I'll use as a reference for my question.
http://www.materialkemi.lth.se/for_students/courses/course_projects/Catalysts/Catalysts-filer/Page302.htm

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5108716.html 

this all being said, if there is a resin that can disolve away the wash coat, leaching may still be a viable option.


----------



## Froggy

Just found that the "wash coat" is alumina oxide with ceria,, the metals are coated on to this washcoat ,,, the coating (alumina oxide) has microscopic tunnel system, After the metals are put on the pgms's get into these tunnels, the substrate is heated and the pgm's get trapped&fused into the material. WIKIpedia--Ceria has been used in catalytic converters in automotive applications. Since ceria can become non-stoichioimetric in oxygen content (i.e. it can give up oxygen without decomposing) depending on its ambient partial pressure of oxygen, it can release or take in oxygen in the exhaust stream of a combustion engine. In association with other catalysts, ceria can effectively reduce NOx emissions as well as convert harmful carbon monoxide to the less harmful carbon dioxide. -----------NEXT IS THE BEST one that i have found, it covers foil converters , but the science I believe is the same,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/70183951.html 99.9% RECOVERY!!!!! after second 5hr wash Frog


----------



## Anonymous

I am very new to all of the idea of recycling converters for profit. I did not know there were such valuable materials in the things until I read an article on MSNBC about how crackheads are running around stealing them. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23117250/

This spurred the idea of gathering and recycling locally, until my local scrap yard told me he would give me 5 bucks for each beaded converter and 3 for each one with the honeycomb catalyst. Not really what I was looking forward to. I have since scoured the internet for everything that I can learn on this topic and have found this site to be the most helpful, despite some of the breaking of the ranks with the ideas on how best to extract the PGMs. That's to be expected. Everyone has their own ideas and thoughts on how they can get the most bang for their buck, and without a great deal of experimentation with varied practices on small and large scale levels, it is difficult to make a determination. 

On to my question(s). Basically what I am looking for is this: What has been the most successful and cost effective way, that the forum has collectively found, to process these treasures? For someone working from the ground up, would it be more plausable to just sell the whole converters to someone (a reseller) or gather enough to send to a large recycler? Would it be a better idea to handle the seperation of the materials myself, or send it through a company like mid west refineries(or possibly another one who would better serve me)? I very much would like to get as much information as possible so that I can hit the ground running with this. Through speaking with a number of local businesses, I know that I can get ahold of several hundred converters (free to cheap) to get me started. 

Any information/expertise that anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. I am in the SE Texas area (Froggy, fairly near to you) and any information, including possible related local businesses and suppliers, that can be gained to get this kicked off would be great. I have been reading a lot on the forum and have found some definite routes not to explore (platinumill!!!!) and a little direction in terms of what I should be looking towards (ex: toyota converters have high concentrations of rhodium).

Again, any help is appreciated.


----------



## Froggy

Exactly Rich, Cordierite is the main substrate and the washcoat is alumina oxide and Ceria, the last link I posted said the substrate wasnt effected but that was a foil converter,,,,, Hell, just use sulfuric 70% disolve the whole subsstrate, ionize the metals and everything, dillute,and chunk in some sr-3 or dowex 24 xlt or similar, collect ans smelt!sounds like it would work to me?


----------



## Froggy

Holy crap! someone from my neck of the woods, Welcome...Damn I thought I had the whole city wrapped up to myself :lol: Well my friend start WAY BACK at the first tpage of this thread and read the entire thing about 3-5 times , and look and read all the links, this will catch you up,,,, as far as the best process, thats what this thread is all about,,,,as far as I know , nobody here is making a buck with this (YET)


----------



## Anonymous

I have read everything a couple of times. I have been on here for hours and my wife has walked in a few times and asked if i was watching porn because there was no way I could be reading for pleasure for this long. I found this site this morning and been on here for probably 10 hours or more today. I have read a good bit on using the washing method (what the platinumill is supposed to do) and some on smelting it and there was something on about page 20 that mentions an instant invention with enviromentally friendly solutions to suspend the metal ions in prior to seperation. All of this is informative, but I am seriously rusty on the whole chemistry thing. I have not had a class since my first year of college about 10 years ago.

Frog, with your setup, have you run a batch yet to see what sort of slime/precipitant you have processed? when do you plan to have it assayed for content? Am i confusing threads when I thought that I read the method you are employing cuts a lot of the rhodium content? Just trying to get some prelim ideas to see what is going to be the best plan of attack for this.


----------



## aflacglobal

Welcome to the forum. We are all trying to get a handel on the process for the cats. Pull up a chair and welcome. 10 hours on the computer,  
I know that one all to well.

Froggy is on a dead mans run now.


----------



## Anonymous

It seems odd that considering this has been a business for some (as obscure as it may have been) as long as it has been, that there arent any definitive processes established for extracting these metals. Are we just all of the hard headed ones that would rather beat our heads against the wall until we come up with a solution than give up a little of the money to a company who processes tons of this material daily at what is probably a far more efficient process, in terms of chemical and process costs and greater efficiency in terms of percent of PGMs extracted? Either way, if we are going to build a better mouse trap, I am glad there are lots of us who are hard headed and greedywith respect to eliminating middle men.


----------



## Anonymous

it makes for greater levels of ingenuity and entertainment


----------



## aflacglobal

Very well said. :wink:


----------



## Absolutsecurity

YEAH F THE MIDDLE MAN!!!! FDLOLLMFAO! GET RID OF THE MIDDLE MAN!!

:shock:  :shock:  

 G


----------



## Platdigger

Perhaps we should just become the middle man. I mean he is the one who makes all the money....right?
Randy


----------



## daveerf

Lou said:


> OK guys, the problem with using silver as your collector is (drum roll please) COST!! To process a large amount of converters milled/crushed to dust would require a darn large amount of silver. If you've got a couple 1,000 oz. bars lying around God Bless, but I don't think you need to be refining to make money.



Well, Lou, I'm just thankful you didn't say a troy TON of silver. hahahaha

Now my next question would be how much copper or silver would it take to collect the values in say ten converters with an average combined weight of substrate of 50 lbs.? The induction furnace I am looking at looks like it would only hold ten or twenty converter's crushed substrate.

On a side note, I had 1000 troy oz. of silver once. Electrical contacts, I went to a refiner that had a quote on the door saying "Honesty is the best policy". They did a wonderful assay for me coming to this 1000 troy oz. figure. So I said go ahead and process. Low and behold I get an invoice from them paying me for 334 oz. I immediately called them and asked what happened to the other 666 oz. ?? They calmly said it "vaporized". I said I'm more than aware of precious metals vaporizing in the incineration or melting process but the industry standard is approximately 1 to 2 % or less and also, all refiners clean out their stacks and recover this anyway.

If I ever see anyone from a refinery on the golf course. I'm going to calmly aim my golfball at them and after it hits them , I will innocently say "I'm sorry, must have been a vapor cloud that affected my trajectory."


----------



## Harold_V

Working with the platinum group of metals isn't a place where you CAN get rid of the middle man. The "middle man" you speak of is the final refiner. Industry will not buy from you as an individual, and even some of the major refiners won't do business with you. Try to sell to Johnson-Matthey, for example. Only if you're an established business with an account with them will they entertain your inquiry. My 70+ ounces of platinum sponge wasn't enough to gain their interest. I think there's a message in that. 

Save for possibly one person on this forum (it's not me), it's highly unlikely anyone can process the platinum group in such a way that it can be liquidated without selling to a refiner, or someone that has the refiner as the final destination. For starters, who amongst the readers has the proper furnace? Who amongst us has the capability to alloy properly, and fabricate the material in a useful form? That's what major refiners do, and they have the staff, equipment, and credentials that make it possible. They also have a customer base, something that is very difficult to cultivate. 

You're flat kidding yourself if you think otherwise. 

Harold


----------



## aflacglobal

Dam Harold what seems to be your problem ?


----------



## Harold_V

daveerf said:


> Now my next question would be how much copper or silver would it take to collect the values in say ten converters with an average combined weight of substrate of 50 lbs.? The induction furnace I am looking at looks like it would only hold ten or twenty converter's crushed substrate.


Be very careful about getting involved with an induction furnace. If you don't understand their operation well, you'll make mistakes that won't be to your liking. Large units generally require three phase power, with considerable amperage. It's unusual for the typical person to have access to three phase-----and it's damned expensive to have installed, assuming the power company that serves you is willing. 

More to consider; you can't introduce the media to an induction furnace and get it molten-----it simply won't respond properly. You can heat metals until they're at the state of being molten, then introduce the media, but the temperatures involved are extreme. Aluminum oxide melts at something like 4,000°F, a temperature well beyond that of molten platinum. It is typically melted by arc furnaces, not induction furnaces. You'd have to explore a flux that would permit dissolving, not just melting, the media. That will have a corresponding amount of wear on the furnace. Also, be aware the frequency of the furnace plays a big role in how it will perform with any given material, 



> On a side note, I had 1000 troy oz. of silver once. Electrical contacts, I went to a refiner that had a quote on the door saying "Honesty is the best policy". They did a wonderful assay for me coming to this 1000 troy oz. figure. So I said go ahead and process. Low and behold I get an invoice from them paying me for 334 oz. I immediately called them and asked what happened to the other 666 oz. ?? They calmly said it "vaporized".


Having refined thousands of ounces of contacts, perhaps I can put your mind at ease. If your contacts were large, many of them are made from sintered tungsten, bonded with silver. The majority of their weight is tungsten, so you'd expect considerable loss in refining. It's been years, but as I recall they run over 50% tungsten. If you submitted such contacts, the back side would have had a waffle pattern, which is unique to the tungsten contacts. 

Harold


----------



## Harold_V

aflacglobal said:


> Dam Harold what seems to be your problem ?


It's not a problem. It's experience. I've been there with the platinum group of metals. I've liquidated relatively large volumes of both platinum and palladium. I did so through more than one major refiner. 

What are your qualifications? You show me, then we'll have something to discuss. Start with telling me how your sales went. 

What, no sales?

How is it you think you know so damned much about this subject when you've not experienced it personally? Can you show me any platinum? Palladium? Sales receipts? You don't like hearing of real life experiences? Do you commonly kill the messenger when he makes statements that you don't want to hear?

It's time the crapola gets cleared and people get down to serious consideration before some of these guys lose their butts in a venture that is almost sure to fail. Major refiners will see to it, and they are the sole source for marketing the materials, assuming you're successful in recovering them. 

Having said the above, I hope, for the sake of those involved, that I'm wrong. As I said, "show me".

Harold


----------



## Irons

The big mining companies and the refiners are a big club. I won't say they are a cartel but close to it. It's much like the diamond trade where the DeBeers cartel regulates prices by controlling the amount that hits the market at a given time. You deal on their terms or eke out a living by scratching out some niche.
There's a massive amount of PGMs tied up in catalyst and every year the reserve becomes larger.The producers have a vested interest in regulating the recovery from cats because it competes with their virgin production. The refiners know which side their bread is buttered on and will no jeopardize their contracts with the big producers by encouraging mom and pop operations, that if allowed to flourish, could put pressure on prices and lower their profit margins.


----------



## daveerf

Ah, Harold, I reread my post and figured someone would not take it like I was trying to say because I didn't explain it in more detail. There was a total of 1700 oz. of material. The assay was for 1003 oz. of silver contained therein....


----------



## Absolutsecurity

Harold was just being VERY realistic!!!

Glynn


----------



## aflacglobal

Harold i didn't say i knew any dam thing about any of that. I think you need your meds Or need to get some sleep. Oh and how's my sales. A lot better than that one picture you seem so proud of that bowl of gold . Really is that the proudest moment you have got. well either that or one of your book commercials. 

Wisdom you may have, Patience and teaching skills ??????


----------



## skippy

> I went to a refiner that had a quote on the door saying "Honesty is the best policy".



In retrospect maybe that would have been the first sign to get the heck out of there! I joke but whenever someone trys to put on a show about how honest they are, especially if they're a used car salesman, politician, pm refiner - it's usually a bad sign.


----------



## Platdigger

Aflac, what's with the atacks? You trying to run him off?

Like he has said, what does he have to gain by any of this?

And as for patience and teaching skills.......seems to me Harold is being very patient, and I can't see why you would question his teaching skills.
Looks like he does a fine job of coveying his thoughts and such to me.
If you don't agree with something he has to say, well, thats one thing.....
but, to fight about seems pointless to me. 
Randy


----------



## jimdoc

Please don't piss off Harold, I like having him around here.


----------



## Lou

When Harold says something isn't likely to work, I am likely to listen as he has been there and done it. 70 oz. of platinum sponge is no small amount of experience, and what he says is in line with my personal experience dealing with JM. My personal belief is that platinum is worth more in a fabricated state--crucibles, wire, plates, electrodes and that can be sold to the right client: the scientist, who is used to paying an exorbitant amount of money for platinumware. Can I melt platinum? Yes I can melt it into nice buttons, but I can not do more than 5 t. oz. at a time. Casting it is extremely difficult to do because it has a narrow range of liquidus. To do it right, you do need induction. As Harold mentioned, unless you have 3 phase (which units as small as 15kW sometimes use) or access to it, doing anything big with induction requires an industrial power supply. Bear in mind that induction only heats conductive materials, so your converter material will at best get warm from the PGM content in it.

This is the mindset of a large refinery:

http://www.wc-heraeus.com/wch2/dach/e_wch_home.nsf/$frameset/startneu


----------



## Irons

Gold you can refine fairly easily and sell to a number of consumers. PGM's are a different story. Unless you are making catalysts for synthesis work or plating solutions, there's really not much of a market to sell PGM's outside of the major refiners. People like Midwest are just middlemen who make their profit off of accumulating small lots and reselling to the big refiners. If you don't like what they pay, tough, because that's the way the PGM refining system works.


----------



## Platdigger

Hey guys, what do you think about "Specialty Metals"?
This is how they pay..Minimum Lot: 500 catalytic converters or 1000 pounds of loose catalyst. 



Payable Metals:

90% of Platinum recovered

90% of Palladium recovered

75% of Rhodium recovered



Treatment Charge: None 
Assay Charge: None 
Lot Fee: None
If this is true.......it would be hard to beat.
Now if there was just some way say 5 of us could combine our cats to make thier minimum............?
Randy


----------



## Lou

I would want an independent assay on the converter material for obvious reasons. Also, their price on rhodium is not the best, I know of one place that pays 88-90% of rhodium spot price plus assay charge ($270).

Their price on Pt and Pd is very good though.


----------



## Platdigger

OK, but remember, this is having them do the recovery. We would be sending them strait honey comb material.

Not Rh sponge.


----------



## daveerf

I wouldn't want much. Just an independent ICP assay , a witness to watch the entire process, a group of highly competent lawyers with backgrounds in refining industry cases, an army of security guards from Blackwater (bonus for any with itchy trigger fingers and suspect psychological profiles), and a possible congressional inquiry. 

A couple of military drones with hellfire missles circling the refinery too.

Hee hee


----------



## Harold_V

daveerf said:


> Ah, Harold, I reread my post and figured someone would not take it like I was trying to say because I didn't explain it in more detail. There was a total of 1700 oz. of material. The assay was for 1003 oz. of silver contained therein....


Wow! Now I understand your position better. This should serve as notice to those that hope to sell metals to major refiners, or merchants of precious metals. 

What you experienced was parallel to my experience when I sold my platinum. I was offered a low ball settlement of 70% content, less fees. This from a name you see regularly, here on this board. I demanded return of my material. 

Second entity assayed a sample, which I prepared properly, and was told it was 90% pure. I knew the quality was low because the platinum had been recovered from very dirty solutions. I did nothing to improve quality because of circumstances at the time-----I didn't have time to re-refine it because I was working long hard days trying to keep up on refining for my customers. 

I submitted the platinum, then when settlement time came, I was paid as if it was 80% pure, less handling. I clearly got screwed, but was not in the position to do anything about it. There was no doubt in my mind that the material submitted *exceeded* 90% purity. 

Funny-------irons made mention that the platinum metal proposition is much like a cartel. Those are my exact thoughts. It is highly unlikely these people are going to allow anyone to upset their carts. They couldn't do much with those that refined gold after legislation made it legal to refine without a federal license, but platinum processing and fabrication is well beyond the ability of almost everyone aside from those with equipment and proper connections. As important as the equipment is, the proper connections are far more important, and that is what will prevent anyone from getting rich. Regardless of your ability, you can't market the material aside from selling to the major refiners. 

Use good sense, guys. I'm not suggesting you don't mess with converters----just don't mortgage your house so you can use the money to refine. Let it grow slowly, and hope to find a buyer that will treat you honestly. 

I'm of the opinion that those that are successful in extracting the values will enjoy considerable success if they can penetrate Johnson-Matthey. While I had no success in doing so, the feeling I got from them was that they may treat you fairly once you had established yourself with them. 

I wish everyone luck! I am supportive of your efforts, but I'd like to see each and every person here use good sense and not get extended to the point where you risk losing your assets. Keep this thing fun----and hope for the best. 

Harold


----------



## Harold_V

aflacglobal said:


> Harold i didn't say i knew any dam thing about any of that. I think you need your meds Or need to get some sleep. Oh and how's my sales. A lot better than that one picture you seem so proud of that bowl of gold . Really is that the proudest moment you have got. well either that or one of your book commercials.
> 
> Wisdom you may have, Patience and teaching skills ??????




Your verbal attacks on readers is not acceptable. 

You have the manners of a starving hog and contribute little to the betterment of the forum. I see nothing good coming from your presence here. 

Harold


----------



## markqf1

Harold,
I agree that nobody should jump in feet first and bet the farm.
What I am doing is simply a feasability study.
I haven't figured on making money on this study or, even getting part of my money back.
What I want is the information.
If by chance I am able to pull some pgm's out of the catylist with this method, then I'll focus on trying to sell the material at a fair price.
Only after all of this can be established, will I move forward with any future investment in this process.
If it doesn't work... then at least I'll know what not to do and I'll have the info I paid for.

Mark


----------



## Froggy

From what I gather, a few small time guys send their pgm's to other countries, Belgium,Germany, and one guy I spoke with sends his to sweden and his funds are put into "one of those accounts",,shhh..


----------



## daveerf

Here's an excerpt from the prestigious International Precious Metals Institute conference in 2002:

Theft by some precious metal refiners is, unfortunately, a fact of life, widely reported in general and industry journals (e.g. American Metal Market). One example which is illustrative of the extent to which theft can extend is provided by the case of RFE Industries, Inc., a New Jersey company. A United States grand jury was empanelled in Newark, New Jersey on January 26, 1996, specifically to examine evidence of possible criminal theft and fraud by RFE, and that examination resulted three years later in a guilty plea to a twenty-page list of charges. 


RFE, and its owner and president, pleaded guilty to a systematic, corporate program to steal from customers: 


“executives and sales personnel would regularly confer and determine the amount by which they could safely defraud given customers without alarming them.” (U.S. v. Jack Leiner, Criminal No. 99-320, USDC, District of New Jersey, Information, Count 1, para. 24a) 

Now my text starts below:

They did things like under report weights, change the numbers on assays and get this one...would open SEALED containers, remove precious metal bearing material and replace with the same weight in ASH! 

This is not an isolated case, and I quote the IPMI above saying "widely reported in general and industial journals", if you peruse several judicial documents you will find many, many more cases. I myself was a victim many times and that alone got me to abandon the precious metal market years ago, specifically in dealing with refining companies. I also know of many people in my life that have experienced this too.
If you noticed GSP's statement where he characterized precious metal refining companies with the quote "You can shear a sheep many times , but you can only skin him once" is a perfect example of this industry.
As Lou stated and I reiterated, get an ICP assay by an independent company and pay to have a professional witness to watch your material being refined.

Now if you need more stories from my experience, I'd be happy to let you know but seeing the well respected IPMI state that should be powerful enough to make you take as many precautions as possible.


----------



## aflacglobal

Harold_V said:


> aflacglobal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harold i didn't say i knew any dam thing about any of that. I think you need your meds Or need to get some sleep. Oh and how's my sales. A lot better than that one picture you seem so proud of that bowl of gold . Really is that the proudest moment you have got. well either that or one of your book commercials.
> 
> Wisdom you may have, Patience and teaching skills ??????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your verbal attacks on readers is not acceptable.
> 
> You have the manners of a starving hog and contribute little to the betterment of the forum. I see nothing good coming from your presence here.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


Yeah yeah yeah. O mighty one. Won't this to stop, then quit coming at me. 

Act like a fool, get treated like one. I can't see where you are all that impressive either.


----------



## Lou

Amen Dave!! Well put.


I think we need to make a thread called "Let's not get scammed, and how to avoid getting sheared".

Problem is, most of us small timers don't have the time or resources to fork over for an independent ICP, XRF, or AA analysis for the small lots we deal with on a regular basis. 

Case example, I sent in about an ounce of what I knew to be pure 99.99% pure Pt (I had ran my own analytical tests) to Midwest Refineries only to be told some hogwash about how they'll XRF it and figure out if it's platinum, and how pure it is to +/-3% (they're really more accurate than that, generally +/- 1% but it can be better depending who's using it and how). Of course they'll take the value the machine gives and correct DOWN by 3%  In my case, since I sent in less than 3 troy ounces, they decided that they would settle for 95% of spot price multiplied by their 89% payout. I never knew I had to send in more than 3 troy ounces to be eligible for the 89% payout. To top it off, they told me it wasn't pure, when I knew it was. Anyway, by the time they were all said and done with their shenanigans, their 89% payout for "any amount" was down to 79% of spot price. Geez guys, at least put some fine print on your website!!

Oh, and when I called to ask why I was 100 bucks short, I got the "well, some of the metal vaporized when it was melted" which is a steaming shovel full of poo. I played along. I had half a mind to tell him that it's not my fault they don't know how to melt platinum, and more than half a mind to ask them how in the world they can make a noticeable amount of platinum volatilize at its casting point. The probably melted it in an induction furnace (which I assume they could afford, if they even have an XRF like they claim)...so unless they *grossly* overheated it, loss due to evaporation should have been nil.

Conclusion: Never, ever believe the "some of it evaporated" line. It's utter crap when applied to platinum, which is used in lab equipment up to its melting point because it doesn't gain or lose weight!!! It's not really that true for gold, palladium, or silver either. You can look up their vapour pressures yourself!
Conclusion: Their assay is probably biased. 

I'm no where near an expert on refining, but I do have a wee bit of what I consider practical experience with the machines used for analysis, and just a little bit of chemistry under my belt. So being treated like a complete idiot was not only insulting, but rather amusing. They didn't fool me, and I'll not allow them to try ever again.


----------



## markqf1

So, most refineries buy it on their own terms and according to their own analysis.
Kinda sounds like that cartel thing again.
I have looked into alot of companies that claim they buy this and that, only to find after conversing with them , on the phone or by email, that most aren't interested in what the little guy has.
Maybe if we formed our own cartel with enough product to turn heads we could get fair market value.
Of course, I don't have any product yet so, this may be a little premature for most of us.

Mark


----------



## Anonymous

I'm begging please stop the infighting. Before someone gets out a trevushay  edit trebuchet


----------



## Anonymous

If you produce gold sponge by the solvent extraction/liquid liquid separation method I will buy the sponge @95% of spot, three-day turnaround FOB my location.

It must be washed with 12% HCl solution and rinsed appropriatley to remove residuals.

Up to 400 ounces a week.

CC


----------



## Irons

crazychicken said:


> If you produce gold sponge by the solvent extraction/liquid liquid separation method I will buy the sponge @95% of spot, three-day turnaround FOB my location.
> 
> It must be washed with 12% HCl solution and rinsed appropriatley to remove residuals.
> 
> Up to 400 ounces a week.
> 
> CC



From what i've been reading, industrial scale operations are going to the solvent extraction route.


----------



## loco

ok is it me or has this thread gotten a bit off track? ....platinumill....catalytic converter processing....pgm's.....difficulty from process cat material vs. ore... all in same realm. and yes it's been side tracked here and there but basicly on the same but now someone trying to buy sponge extracted from gold ore??


----------



## Absolutsecurity

I was thinking of selling some of my gold that I have refined to purchase a DC Power Solutions 24 volt DC battery powered air conditioner for my 1974 Steyr Puch Pingauer 712 AMB-S six wheel Swiss military ambulance. I think I am going to have to spend some time installing AGM batteries and a Xantrex inverter first and the make some mods to the fiberglass foam core box to get it to work right.

Let me know if you want me to post pics?

How's that to sticking to the post topic?????

Fdrotflmfao!!!

Glynn


----------



## markqf1

Mmmm....,
Good answer.
Crazy chicken, are you interested in gold only, or do you play with pgm's too?


----------



## markqf1

Iron's,
What's the difference between a solvent and a leach soloution?


----------



## Irons

markqf1 said:


> Iron's,
> What's the difference between a solvent and a leach soloution?



The solvent method is like using Butyl Diglyme to extract Gold Chloride from an mixed solution (leach). The leach is usually a water based acid solution (Cyanide is basic) and a hydrophobic organic solvent that selectively attracts the Precious metal ions from the water phase to the organic solvent phase. Different solvents attract different groups of Precious metal ions, thus allowing easy separation of, say Gold, from a complex mixture of metallic and other ions. The water phase and the solvent phase form distinct layers that can be mechanically separated and treated to extract the values.

Using BDG has been discussed in previous threads.


----------



## Froggy

Ok the paint peeler dryer thing burned out, took it back and found the 3ft torch/propane thing, WOW, it rocks,,, turns the substrate red in a couple of seconds,,, was only $49,,,,,, I had it on low... everythings hooked up and ran a test with h20, will mix my acids and get going in the a.m---- LOU, are you ready for some material? pm me with an address if you want to assay this stuff,, Frog


----------



## Irons

Some hereabouts might think solvent extraction is off topic but the South African Platinum refineries are going to it due to lower cost and less pollution. 

Grow up.


----------



## Froggy

I have the cleanest Floor! What a day. I started and ran the system with h20. added my hcl, evrythings cool. Brought the temp up and added ny cls26p and then the (Holy Crap!) liquid fire,,, Guess I,m I'm not use to acids (im not) and was surprised by the action..... thankfully I have been subliminaly directed by a few on the forum, I had my gloves,mask, and a respirator,,,, well at about hour 5 these things came in handy, My connection from my solution container (igloo) to my pump started leaking bad, real bad ( I used teflon liquid?), It was like flowing out all over the floor bad, safety equipment on , I was able to pump my golden colored pgm' solution into several containers, what a mess,,,, I cleaned everything up and i threw my plates into a 5gallon bucket and cranked it back up , what the heck I'm running similar to a a system 3 now, oh well,,, guess I will run the material a little bit at a time,,,, thanks all who promote safety equipment, I almost didnt buy a respirator the other day, I would have been majorly screwed,,, the saga continues, will keep you posted,, Frog


----------



## Anonymous

Froggy said:


> I have the cleanest Floor! What a day. I started and ran the system with h20. added my hcl, evrythings cool. Brought the temp up and added ny cls26p and then the (Holy Crap!) liquid fire,,, Guess I,m I'm not use to acids (im not) and was surprised by the action..... thankfully I have been subliminaly directed by a few on the forum, I had my gloves,mask, and a respirator,,,, well at about hour 5 these things came in handy, My connection from my solution container (igloo) to my pump started leaking bad, real bad ( I used teflon liquid?), It was like flowing out all over the floor bad, safety equipment on , I was able to pump my golden colored pgm' solution into several containers, what a mess,,,, I cleaned everything up and i threw my plates into a 5gallon bucket and cranked it back up , what the heck I'm running similar to a a system 3 now, oh well,,, guess I will run the material a little bit at a time,,,, thanks all who promote safety equipment, I almost didnt buy a respirator the other day, I would have been majorly screwed,,, the saga continues, will keep you posted,, Frog



Please read Irons signature line--------

I told you on the phone what I thought of that method and suggested a different approach.

CC


----------



## Froggy

Well I had everything already, figured what the hay.... ,,, I'm still looking into the iodide complex with the Dow or the resintech ,, they are sending me a sample of the sir-400,,, i sent you a p.m Frog Check out my new signature line!


----------



## markqf1

Crazychicken,
Are your thoughts on this method based on experience?
If so, ...clue the rest of us in please!


----------



## Anonymous

markqf1 said:


> Crazychicken,
> Are your thoughts on this method based on experience?
> If so, ...clue the rest of us in please!



Yes -- experience.

CC


----------



## markqf1

Well ...uhh
What about the clueing in part?


----------



## loco

crazychicken,

with resins do you feel they are or can be as effective as firing for getting metals? resin of choice?

I got the catalog's we spoke about. the housing guy was fast ... both emailed and snail mailed.


----------



## markqf1

Crazychicken,
You've got our intersts "spurred".
Talk to us.


----------



## Froggy

F%*%'n Home depot,,, gave me a nylon reducer, my fault i guess..... ate right through it..


----------



## hvyshakes1

sounds like you had a chemical spill just as I did except with your own machine froggy. Dont you love that smell too? You will not see anything collect on those plates or in your filter bags by the way also. I dont mean to discourage you but its the truth. Good Luck. 

Also, if anyone here can get a hold of a jewelers kiln(burnout oven) that gets up to 2500 degrees this is just as good to use for the method i described to you all. Get a deep crucible that will hold the pulverized powder. Add your pulverized material to it with about the same amount of borax powder and then drop a fistful of lead in to the mix. Wait until glass has formed all over your crucible stiring in between with a quartz rod and until all powder is gone completely. pour out the molten lead into a mold former. Take a clean graphite crucible afterwards and put the lead back into this crucible that you just poured into a mold. reheat until it has been dissolved into the graphite crucible. Presto your plat group metals should be the only thing remaining at the bottom of that graphite crucible. ")



ROB


----------



## skippy

hvyshakes,

It would probably make things a lot easier if you were to use something called the 'parkes process' on your lead. It works by the pgms in the molten lead selectivly migrating into a layer of molten zinc that floats on the lead. The zinc and lead don't alloy significantly and the zinc can be ladled off. It may take some experimentation to get the amounts and temperatures right, but that would be the way to go probably rather than burning off all the lead. Hope this helps.


----------



## Lou

I don't see the lead being that well absorbed into the graphite crucible. I've melted lead in clay graphite, and I didn't see (noticeably) any lead go into it, or did the crucible feel heavier after casting.

I'm pretty sure you need either magnesite or bone ash to do that.


About the Parkes process, that does in fact work, and it works nicely. It takes advantage of the fact that Au, Ag, and PGMs are more soluble in zinc than in lead, and that lead and zinc are immiscible. It's actually pretty tough to skim off the zinc from the lead (yep, I've tried this before!). 

You simply dissolve away all the zinc with HCl, and you're left with your values. If there is lead, you will have significant contamination of PbCl2 which must be removed with many hot water rinses.


Lou

Edited because I don't even know how to spell a method I myself have used! Wow, doesn't that do something for my credibility  Sorry guys if it caused any problems looking it up!


----------



## Platdigger

Right Lou, lead is not going to be all absorbed into graphite.

The thing with the parks proccess is, the zinc needs to be stirred into the lead to pick up any values. Then alowed to floa,t and cooled to just the right temp.

I am sure you know this Lou, just adding for clarification for any who don't.

Another thing about this proccess is you won't need nearly so high of temps.
Really not much over the melting point of the lead.
Randy


----------



## hvyshakes1

All I can say about the parks process is its great..........but.........When you add the zinc to the lead remember you are gonna be exposed to osmium and we all know one whif off of those fumes.........well you might as well dig a hole 6ft deep by your processing area and plant your tombstone there as well cause your gonna fall straight in it afterwards.


----------



## aflacglobal

Wet digestion methods :arrow:


----------



## skippy

Lou: Parkes (with an e) Process - not Park's Process.  
I wondered once why I couldn't find any info about it. Turns out I was spelling it like you :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkes_process


----------



## aflacglobal

Testing :arrow: http://geology.msu.edu/icp_hex_ms.html

I wonder Exactly what would qualify as Academic Research ?


----------



## Ian_B

> I have the cleanest Floor! What a day. I started and ran the system with h20. added my hcl, evrythings cool. Brought the temp up and added ny cls26p and then the (Holy Crap!) liquid fire,,, Guess I,m I'm not use to acids (im not) and was surprised by the action..... thankfully I have been subliminaly directed by a few on the forum, I had my gloves,mask, and a respirator,,,, well at about hour 5 these things came in handy, My connection from my solution container (igloo) to my pump started leaking bad, real bad ( I used teflon liquid?), It was like flowing out all over the floor bad, safety equipment on , I was able to pump my golden colored pgm' solution into several containers, what a mess,,,, I cleaned everything up and i threw my plates into a 5gallon bucket and cranked it back up , what the heck I'm running similar to a a system 3 now, oh well,,, guess I will run the material a little bit at a time,,,, thanks all who promote safety equipment, I almost didnt buy a respirator the other day, I would have been majorly screwed,,, the saga continues, will keep you posted,, Frog



sounds like you had a "Run Away" caused by an Exothermic reaction and I bet heating the liquid before adding that compound didn't help the situation

Now before I go any fartherI have not tried what you have done and I don't know if the way I am describing would be worse or more dangerous but for other instances when I have mixed chemical's in a solution (chemistry class 4 years ago) that have created excess heat the way I've done it is 

A) Ice bath get a larger container with ice in it and water and some salt in the bottom then put your reaction vessel (mix container) in the ice bath 

B) slowly add 1/8 of you solution into the first mixture then pause stir feel the side of the container and wait until the temperature is cooled down and keep on repeating until all your solution is in the reaction container

C) do it outside downwind slowly add solution same as before without the ice bath (didn't do that in chem class but did do it at home  )

D) all of the above combined


depending on the size of your container if it is small have a bucket full of water and just dump the mix into it if the temperature starts to climb to fast.

last thing I could recommend would be to add all your chemicals together before you add the heat because heated mother solution + Exothermic reaction = what you experienced could have been worst though. I'm glad you are alright though


----------



## Froggy

AHH, thx, I see,,, I did add more chems after my solution was already hot from the quartz heaters,,,,, the fitting that gave way was a nylon.... it would have failed regardless,,, the heat just helped it.... frog


----------



## Froggy

Just wondering, if I ionize my pgm's and recover with resins ( resintech, dowex etc.) then carbon shouldnt be a problem? Without my carbon plates with current running through them, the ionized pgm's should not bond with anything? correct? They should just stay in solution? So heating the substrate would seem like a step that really could be bypassed. Heating the substrate may oxidize some of the rh, thus losing a bit on recovery? frog


----------



## Anonymous

I am new here...been lurking for a few days. I was wondering if anyone would take a look at eBay #320219528448 and tell me what you think.


----------



## Anonymous

I think that if he was/is selling PT, PD and RH at the prices shown someone would have committed him already for wasting their inherritance.


----------



## Froggy

Some sucker is also buying his leached substrate! he has another auction where he sold 20 lb ( said substrate may be ground) I can tell right now that he is taking the pgm's off then selling the substrate,,,,, P.T Barnumm


----------



## Froggy

All my leach solution is a funky yellow, I really didnt get any "slimes' in or on my carbon plate filterbags, I'm wondering how much pgm's are still ionized in my solution? I'm going to save this solution, filter it and add the resins when I get them,, hopefully something drops out of the solution..


----------



## Irons

pumpkinhead said:


> I am new here...been lurking for a few days. I was wondering if anyone would take a look at eBay #320219528448 and tell me what you think.



That's a lot of money to pay for Mica flakes.


----------



## markqf1

Frog,
Shouldn't you be able to drop it all by increasing the ph to 7?


----------



## hvyshakes1

dont waste your time with the solution either froggy the values are not there either. They are still in your coverter material. Find a furnace now and get ready for the parkes process and make your money that way. Except do not use any zinc. I have started with the process and it looks like its a winner. Will let you all know the details soon. 

ROB


----------



## Froggy

Shakes,,, oh , never mind..


----------



## Froggy

Mark, Your Right I should be able to raise my ph past 7 and the metals should "drop" ,,, what should I use thats easy,hydrazine, , or ? something easy to get my hands on? l also need to get my hands on some sodium borohydride .... anyone ??? Thx, frog


----------



## hvyshakes1

Froggy,

USE REGULAR BAKING SODA


----------



## Froggy

Such a simple answer, sorry,Im sick and laid up, too sick to google even, eyes hurt! Guess I have that bad flu thats going around everywhere... thx, will get to it later... Frog


----------



## markqf1

Yea Frog,
Baking soda(sodium bicarbonate) works fine but, it takes alot of it and alot more time. I am using sodium hydroxide (caustic soda or lye as we called it on the farm) that you should be able to find locally. Just keep in mind that it is nowhere as benign as baking soda. In fact it can probably hurt you worse than the acids. Our pecan trees loved the stuff although the pigs weren't to crazy about it.


----------



## markqf1

For anybody interested:

My first lesson learned with the Sys.III...


Tempature control... tempature control... tempature control.
This quartz heater is made to maintain the temp, not heat it up.
If you don't start with everything already heated to about 140 degrees(including the cat material), then your wasting your time.

The electrical current can only be controlled by the addition of a custom made piece of pvc pipe, added to the bottom of the carbon rod and slid up or down to adjust for proper amperage.

Also, if material is not crushed to absoloute powder, it will not work with this Sys.

Mark


----------



## loco

so mark how tough was it to get it all to temp? and how'd you do it? and how fine did you need to grind the material?

- Rich


----------



## markqf1

Loco,
Everthing is in the preparation.
It's not hard to do, you just got to stay ahead of everything.
I am now filtering the material through a cricket box.
I then put it back into my roaster and heat it up.
I have a mop sink that I fill with hot water(140 degrees)then place the jugs of acid in to heat them from the outside. The distilled water is heated over the burner. When you have it all up to temp,... you're ready.
It's also easier to have everything already measured and weighed before you start. Be sure... double sure to have a respirator because this stuff is nasty. I've had problems trying to post pics becuase of a resolution thing
but, if anybody is interested in pics, contact me by pm and I'll see if I can email them to you.
I don't want anyone to think I have made the system work just yet.
Still a bit more testing to be done.
I'll keep you informed.

Mark


----------



## loco

and the race is on.......

anyone get an assay done yet on thier chosen method of recovery? anyone having any luck with thier recovery? this should all be good once all the kinks are worked out. I can't wait till weather breaks here so I can at least try leaching in one form or another. 

you guys in warmer climates than us here in the northern parts of the country keep up the good work. I think it hit 9 degrees here this morning without wind chill. closer to lake michigan they have over 30 inches of snow on the ground now. 

how about you up there Noxx. how's the snow fall up there?

keep me posted fella how things are going. heck if not in open forum you can pm me or email me at


Code:


[email protected]

 thanks.


- Rich


----------



## markqf1

Loco,
You probably won't apprieciate my reply, but uh... the weather is why I live in Ga.
I must be cold blooded or something.
As far as assays are concerned, at this point I have assays in the works on the raw material only.
My intention is to have the material assayed again when I'm done leaching it all.
This should tell me what was available and what I've collected.
I will reserve any comment about the concentrates until I have hard data.
Your at the top of the list when I get some.
The Sys. III could be duplicated for a whole lot less than I paid.
Anybody interested can pm me.

I'm working on it.

Mark


----------



## loco

awesome. I appreciate at least knowing it's in the works and I believe the method you are doing will definately give some hard data. By the way that motor if you do some shopping around online I've seen for like $74 from the system III. the paddle and paddle shaft that attach to the motor and the bracket across the top of the bucket that supports the motor and the quartz heater I guess what you are really paying for. the bucket I can get for about $3. and motor he uses for like $74. and froggy and hvyshakes have mentioned in the past about finding cheap quartz heaters. and I guess the good things is he says supports his products he sells, and if one was looking for a starting point then I guess it's a ok start. and definately more than we can say for the platinumill.


----------



## markqf1

Yes Loco,
I have definitley scrutinized this System from an economic veiwpoint.
There has been some craftsmenship put into the construction of the paddle assembley and, you have to take into consideration the cost of the battery charger.
I'm not trying to make myself feel good here ,... or even better about my investment.
I can see though that, it would take quite a bit of R&D to evolve it to the point it is.
If it doesn't work, ... then I take all of that back. :lol: 

Mark


----------



## Froggy

oops its late, will get accurate data later


----------



## markqf1

Where you at Frog,
Got them resins yet?

How about you Shakes, got a smelter yet?

I don't know what I have yet.
It may turn out to be nothing other than an expensive chemistry lesson on what not to do.
We'll see what it turns out to be!

Mark


----------



## Froggy

Just found a distributer, things move slow when your in a hurry!


----------



## markqf1

Froggy,
That picture looks like my last date.
Are you going with the beads?

Mark


----------



## Froggy

Yep, This hurry up and wait is killing me, really, it takes alot to get everything together. Thought I had it together with the "other setup" n guess I will have to sucker someone with a $130 video, carbon plates&filters, and a new 25amp power supply, oh yea, I almost forgot the magic clsp26! The nice thing about the bromine and bead set up is that no one has tried to "sell" it to me, must be the right way to go, only time,time,time will tell.....


----------



## markqf1

Good luck with it!
I read some good things about those beads and have talked to several individuals in the refining business that are very familiar with them.
In fact, when I mentioned resin beads ,... they perked up right away.

Keep us informed on your progress.

Mark


----------



## jbautosales

Hay guy's I'm not getting any messages as of 3 weeks now what's up Bob


----------



## Froggy

Im stuck for chems. And looking at an alternative non-chem method... I dont know whats up with mark? Mark?


----------



## jasonvoss

So am I reading the posts right , this machine doesnt work either? Oh boy I just bought mine last week


----------



## hvyshakes1

Well Im glad you bought a system III not a platinumill.


----------



## markqf1

As of yet, I have not had any of the material(sludge) refined or assayed.
It did however produce some black sludge .
Shakes seems to think what I have is only carbon.
Maybe he's right, but I don't think so.
The more knowledgable individuals here, tell me that black, is what I want.
Right now I'm trying to find a competent individual to do a proper inquarted fire assay of the material, before I make any positive or derogatory comments about it. I can tell that it seemed to work as described but that doesn't mean that it does or did. I am trying to make my observations as scientific as possible.
In the meantime, If anyone needs a little cls26p to try some experiments,
pm me and I'll send you some.
I also continue to look at other alternatives, as it pertains to cat leaching, as I'm sure you all do. I think my next experiments will not involve cls26p , untill I have some proof its works.

Mark


----------



## jasonvoss

Did you roast your cat material before using the system? Im very thankful to you all for talking me out of the Platinumill! I have just built my first Ball Mill and thought I would share the pics & the instructions to it so that it may benefit others, I used one electric cement mixer, 1 30 gal. plastic drum w/ sealed lid; remove paddles out of drum of mixer, cut drum of mixer so barrell will slide into. put 3 2x2 wooden strips off center of mixer drum, so that barrell would fit snug and run true! Run the ball mill with 1/2 inch chrome steel balls ( approx.450) for max. capacity, this machine grinds cat material to a fine powder, also should grind at least 10-20lbs in 8 hours, the balls can be purchased from Ebay for a great price.


----------



## jasonvoss

This is the finished product, as fine as it should be .


----------



## Platdigger

Has it been determined that it is even necissary
to grind this stuff .....at all?
Randy


----------



## Platdigger

BTW, nice setup jasonvoss! How much do you think you will have invested here?
Randy


----------



## Froggy

Well, like I said, Im still waiting on the chems, the dow bulliten plainly states a 98% recovery rate with sodium bromide and the geobrom 55,,, and then recover with the dowex resin beads, I have not given up on this, but I have been looking into building an arc furnace that will just use a zirconium crucible,,, after seeing techemets system, Im sorry guys the arc method just makes too much sense to be messing with the chems.... take some lime and some feldspar? to make the slag ,zap it. add your converter material,zapp it, let it cool, break open crucible,ENJOY! Lou, I have seen you on the backyard smelter forum, but really I never found much info on a arc furnace,,,, doesnt seem difficult at all..... i have been tied up also with opening a storefront.... will keep everyone posted if any new developments arise,,, i did post a pic of a 200lb experimental arc furnace awhile back,, it looks really simple to slap together... Later ,, Frog


----------



## hvyshakes1

Jasonvoss,

The system III might give you some headaches because you ground up the cats to a fine powder but dont quote me. When I spoke with Mike at action mining he had said that I should not grind any of it and just chunk it up into small pieces. I tried both methods and got the same crappy result but I used the Platinumill for that experiment. I dont know anyone on this forum that has invested in the system III but you. I hope it works for you. Good Luck.

Rob Hancer


----------



## hvyshakes1

Also Marq

Now that you have the black sludge here is what I want you to do with it.

get a deep crucible (bone) and take your sludge material and put it into a bounty napkin........yes thats right a bounty napkin. gather the sludge into the center of the napkin and twist the napkin around it. Cut off the access napkin and pour pickling flux and borax on it into the crucible. Take a torch and blast away at it until everything is completely been burned away. Keep adding borax to it. Remember to take a quartz stirring rod and mix while torching too. When all material is burned away you will see shiny molten metal if there is any and that is your pgms at the bottom. Pour into a dory bar and send that off for your assay. Do not send your sludge! By the way have you dried your sludge out and weighed it? How much sludge are we talking about? How many converters? Let me know what you do. Also if you are hesitant to do what I have told you to do, take it to a jeweler and have him do it for you while you watch. Take a small sample to him and have him do it. Let me know.

Best,
Rob Hancer


----------



## Platdigger

If you do this, it may not be a good idea to use acetylene. Propane or natural gas (with oxygen) would be better choices. It will take some high temps to get a button this way. Don't you think he should disolve any base metals chemically first?
Randy


----------



## jasonvoss

I actually dont have much invested, the mixer was given to me and the drum was around 20 bucks, the balls came from ebay ! Not sure about using it with the system III though, will have to learn and see!


----------



## Froggy

Geez, this is getting to be a hassle. I think I will buy a gun and recover gold from a few pawn shop counters or jewelry stores. :? Either A. I will be asking you guys how to make bars out of scrap or B. You will not hear from me again.....


----------



## markqf1

As I've said, I've been very busy with my regular job so, I haven't been able to prove results from the sys.III yet.
Thanks for your suggestions and knowledge Rob but, I'm looking at a oven.
Frog sounds like he's on to a good recovery ratio.

Somebody has to be able to produce an accurate fire assay, of before, and after material.
If and when I produce any definititive results with the sys III , I will let you alll know.

Randy,... depends on how how your trying to skin the cat.

Mark


----------



## markqf1

Results!
Not exactly.
I'm trying to figure out the formula for this stuff.
It seems to be a user indifferent product, meaning, that everyone could come up with a different result.

I do not think that , what ever this stuff is, collects the rhodium.

Anyone need a sample to work with , let me know.


----------



## Palladium

This has got to be the longest thread on the forum.  
So hows the hunt going for the perfect system guys.
Updates ?


----------



## markqf1

I didn't find the sys. III to be the "golden egg" of recovery systems.
It works better if you use a different solution than is sold by action mining. :wink: 
All in all, I would say, ... don't waste your money.

By the time you run enough material to pay for it, it's about shot.

The best thing is , ... I did learn alot from messing around with it. :idea: 

Mark


----------



## GeeDub

This is a long and hairy thread, but I'd like to go back to something on the earlier posts.

In regard to removing the carbon from the Cats; 
Why not lay out a bed of charcoal briquettes, put on some charcoal lighter, place the Cat Cons on top, light it and

just let the coals burn to ashes? The heat will surely be hot enough and long enough to oxidize the carbon.


----------



## markqf1

A new and improved version.?
Mmmm,... 

There is alot of patents out there.

Mark


----------



## Muddy

Pretreatment is required if you are going to use hydrometallurgy to recover the PGM's.
The carbon and other contaminants will foul the process. 



GeeDub said:


> This is a long and hairy thread, but I'd like to go back to something on the earlier posts.
> 
> In regard to removing the carbon from the Cats;
> Why not lay out a bed of charcoal briquettes, put on some charcoal lighter, place the Cat Cons on top, light it and
> 
> just let the coals burn to ashes? The heat will surely be hot enough and long enough to oxidize the carbon.



GeeDub this is a good approach.


----------



## Muddy

Platdigger said:


> Has it been determined that it is even necissary
> to grind this stuff .....at all?
> Randy



There isn't a need to grind this stuff up, the PGM's are put on using a washcoat. So I would have thought no need to grind up.


----------



## hvyshakes1

why not grind it up into powder and add borax and fire it to smithereens in a crucible and pour? STOP WASTING YOUR TIME WITH CHEMICALS YOU WILL NEVER RECOVER 100%


----------



## markqf1

What's up shakes?
Long time no hear.
There is a formula available for cat con flux here on the forum somewhere.
Prefusion before acid attack is the way to go!
Glad to see you're back.

Mark


----------



## Palladium

Glad to see both of you again.


----------



## markqf1

Thanks Ralph,
Whenever any of you guys find a way to get paid for rh content without a fusion process assay,.. please let me know.

Mark


----------



## Palladium

markqf1 said:


> Thanks Ralph,
> Whenever any of you guys find a way to get paid for rh content without a fusion process assay,.. please let me know.
> 
> Mark




I"m a little dumb here. Break that down for me. Are you talking about like selling a solution, Say AR that might contain P.M.'s in solution ?


----------



## AKDan

Has anyone seen the show on Acids on the Discovery channel? It has been on a few times that I know of. Today was probably the third time I have seen it, at least. 

Today was the first time I had noticed though that they specifically talk about recovery from catalists. They didn't go into great detail, but one of the things that they did go over was the initial process that they put the catalist through, and specifically they said the first process was screening, then processing in Sulfuric acid to remove everything but the platinum, then processing the remaining metals with aqua regia.

I have not followed this thread very closely as it is/has been of little interest. So, I am not sure if anyone is/has attempted the sulfuric acid bath as their initial step in the processing of cats. I guess I should have looked to be sure that cat processing is where this thread kicked off, and that sulfuric was not discussed as an option. It seems to simple/cheap of an option to have not been tried already.


----------



## shadybear

If you disolve the cat in sulfuric acid does the palladium and rhodium
go into the sulfuric acid and how do you get it out


----------



## butcher

reactivity series of metals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Rhodium&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10


----------



## Muddy

Using AR or Sulfuric acid is a way to get the PGM's, BUT is a little barbaric. It disolves EVERYTHING.

Making recovery from solution a little harder. I have been able to recover around 80% of Pt,Pd and less of Rh this way, but it is not as efficient as other processes.


----------



## shadybear

Muddy said:


> Using AR or Sulfuric acid is a way to get the PGM's, BUT is a little barbaric. It disolves EVERYTHING.
> Making recovery from solution a little harder. I have been able to recover around 80% of Pt,Pd and less of Rh this way, but it is not as efficient as other processes.





what more efficient methods have you used?


----------



## Muddy

Hi shadybear, I have tried quite a few different methods. Just trying to get the recovery up, the process time down and make it as cheap to process as possible.

Pretty much what everyone is doing.


----------



## butcher

shady bear there is alot of information on catalytic converters and processing the platinum group metals on posts here, also have you been to lasersteves web site? and for a few bucks he has a DVD that will give you a visual lesson. I have not worked with the catalytics, except for reading alot, but steve's method seems like one of the best for small time refiners like us.


----------



## lazersteve

In the near future, with Lou's long distance help, I'll be setting up and demonstrating Gas Phase extraction of cats use sulfuryl chloride.

This method appears to be the most direct route to PGMs from cats.

I'll have my rig up and tested by the end of the year hopefully.

Here's a photo of the home made lab scale (24" reaction chamber) furnace today:







Steve


----------



## markqf1

Great setup Steve!
If anybody can make it work,... it's you and lou.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you've come up with.

Ralph,
I was just referring to having to put rh into solution to run ICP assays.
Thats what it takes to sell it. :lol: 

Mark


----------



## NobleMetalsRecovery

How did the Platinumill end up working? Is it good? They now have a DVD for $129.00. Wondering about getting it.


----------



## Palladium

You got a link to that DVD Steve ?


----------



## NobleMetalsRecovery

Here's the link.

It's the second item on the page:

http://actionmining.com/newitems.html


----------



## markqf1

I have the DVD and it's old news.
It's not about the platinumill, it's about their system 4 and system 3.
If you would like to see it, pm me.
I also have the fire assay dvd and the leaching manual. :lol: 

Mark


----------



## NobleMetalsRecovery

I tried several times to PM you, couldn't get it to work.

Here's my email address: [email protected]

Please send your email address.

Regards, Steve


----------



## Palladium

That's funny i just sent him a P.M. not 10 secs before you posted that. :?:


----------



## NobleMetalsRecovery

When I try to send a PM, I get an error message, : no "recipient specified", but the box with his user named is checked before I tried to send the PM. Any suggestions? Thanks, Steve


----------



## AKDan

I get the same sometimes. The only way I have found to correct the problem is to log out, shut down IE and come back in from scratch.


----------



## NobleMetalsRecovery

Thanks, that worked.


----------



## markqf1

I got them, you've both got mail.

Mark


----------



## PeterM

Muddy said:


> Using AR or Sulfuric acid is a way to get the PGM's, BUT is a little barbaric. It disolves EVERYTHING.
> 
> Making recovery from solution a little harder. I have been able to recover around 80% of Pt,Pd and less of Rh this way, but it is not as efficient as other processes.


Muddy, If using Sulfuric, could you share what did you precipitated with? Hydrazine perhaps?


----------



## Martijn

PeterM said:


> Muddy, If using Sulfuric, could you share what did you precipitated with? Hydrazine perhaps?




Last post in this thread was in 2009. 
Click on the profile and look at the 'Last seen' date before you ask a question.
I don't think he'll read your message.


----------



## PeterM

Martijn said:


> View attachment 51687
> 
> Last post in this thread was in 2009.
> Click on the profile and look at the 'Last seen' date before you ask a question.
> I don't think he'll read your message.


Do you think he's passed? Thanks so much.


----------



## Yggdrasil

PeterM said:


> Do you think he's passed? Thanks so much.


Hopefully not, but he has not been on the forum for the last 11 years.


----------



## PeterM

Yggdrasil, thanks for your help.
P


----------

