# Hey guys, take a look at these. What do you think?



## silversaddle1 (Dec 30, 2008)

Got some telecom stuff today and started scrapping it out. This was some type of patch bay I'm guessing. The reeds are made of stainless, but what has my interest up are the little contacts soldered onto the reeds. Anybody ever seen these before? I have no plans right now of trying to reclaim these contacts, so I may offer them up on the for sale link. Want to get some input on them first. There are a bunch of them in this scrap. What say you?


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## lazersteve (Dec 30, 2008)

Silver,

The contact points are likely palladium or silver. You can use a pair of pliers to roll the steel reed away from the point and pluck the contact off. After removing the contact dissolve it in nitric and test with DMG for palladium and table salt for silver.

It takes a lot of those contacts to amount to a gram of palladium. The last batch I ran yielded 0.75 grams of pure Pd for 104 points.

Steve


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## silversaddle1 (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I'm sure there would be over 1000 of the contacts in this lot of scrap. Let me get a count!


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm almost positive that the small rectangular contacts, mounted at an angle, are pure Pd. They look like most every Pd contact that I have seen. It's possible that hot conc. HCl will dissolve the nickel backing between the copper alloy and the Pd. If so, you will have pure solid Pd without even having to dissolve it.

I have never seen Ag contacts that looked like that.


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## silversaddle1 (Dec 30, 2008)

I just counted them up and there would be 4928 of the contacts in this lot of scrap. That's a lot!


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## Oz (Dec 30, 2008)

GSP,

For clarification are you saying that typically small Pd contacts are mounted diagonally in general or specifically with telecom contacts?

Silver,

Using Steve’s yields if GSP is correct about pure Pd, you have a bit over an ounce. It looks like you have a fine score!


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## silversaddle1 (Dec 30, 2008)

Problem is it takes about 1 hour to totally strip one row of the contactors. Theres two rows per unit, and 11 units that were scrapped. So about 22 hours to strip, and then to refine. No way. And I do not have any equipment, brains, or time to even try to reclaim the contacts. So what to do?


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## silversaddle1 (Dec 30, 2008)

Here is what you have left after you strip down one row. 13.9 ounces of scrap! hey, only 21 more to go....NOT!


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## Oz (Dec 30, 2008)

Prove the content with what you have stripped, then EBay.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 30, 2008)

Oz,



> For clarification are you saying that typically small Pd contacts are mounted diagonally in general or specifically with telecom contacts?



It has nothing to do with them being mounted diagonally. It's the shape and color. The color is more steely gray and less white than silver. Notice the 3 surface planes of the points. The top plane and the side plane(s) are at about 120 deg angles. It looks like 6 sided (hexagonal) cross section wire that has been sliced in half. Every pure Pd telecom point I have ever seen is shaped like that. All were pure. I haven't seen any that were alloyed.

All you have to do is separate the points from the copper base and the nickel backing, without dissolving the Pd. This is easier said than done, since most copper solvents also eat the Pd. Way back when, after trimming off the copper as close as possible, we used a very dangerous strong solution of chromic acid and conc. sulfuric acid to selectively dissolve the remaining copper. We then dissolved the thin nickel backing with hot (maybe, boiling) concentrated HCl and sold the points as pure Pd. As I said before, hot HCl may undermine the point and dissolve just the nickel. If so, the CrO3/H2SO4 step would be unnecessary. I haven't tried it.

About 6 years ago, I worked in a huge, 750,000 sq.ft. building that originally was occupied by a big company that made metal fasteners. They must of had a lot of phones. In the 10,000 sq.ft. attic, we found a 10'X10' room whose walls were completely lined, floor to ceiling, with banks of telecom relays, identical to the ones in silversaddle's photo. I wonder how much of this stuff is still sitting around in old buildings.


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## Oz (Dec 31, 2008)

Thanks for the additional details GSP. I would imagine there is plenty laying around in old buildings. One of my other interests is old engines and often old steam engines are found still setting in the old buildings they used to power just as they were when they were last shut down over 100 years ago.


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## Harold_V (Dec 31, 2008)

Oz said:


> One of my other interests is old engines and often old steam engines are found still setting in the old buildings they used to power just as they were when they were last shut down over 100 years ago.



I have a keen interest in steam as well. Here's a picture of me operating a Tifft horizontal at an engine meet in Utah. I have since sold the engine due to my move to Washington. The Tifft is exceedingly rare, but then most steam engines are now. 

Harold


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## Oz (Dec 31, 2008)

That would hurt selling an engine like that. I like the gravity tensioner (at least it looks to be gravity only) for your governor belt, I don’t believe I’ve seen that before. 

Do you run any steam in Washington yet?


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## Harold_V (Dec 31, 2008)

Oz said:


> That would hurt selling an engine like that.


I used to store it on a trailer I needed to haul my induction furnace. The power supply weighs 6,000 pounds, so I didn't have many options open to me. At that time I didn't have a means to handle the engine, so the EDGE & TA club president in Salt Lake purchased the engine. He owned a lot of nice equipment. I would like to still own it, although living where I do, I question how well it would hold up. We receive in the neighborhood of 60" of rain annually---and it would have had to live outside, at least until all my important projects were completed. 

I'd love to build a scale model, which I have not ruled out. 



> I like the gravity tensioner (at least it looks to be gravity only) for your governor belt, I don’t believe I’ve seen that before.


Not being familiar with steam engines in general, I wasn't aware that it was an unusual feature. 

You might be interested to know that the frame of the Tifft was cored for use as a pre-heater for the feed water to the boiler------and it has a rocking valve instead of the typical slide valve of the period. When I owned it I tried to find others, and found only two-----I believe they were in the Ford Museum. 

It was neat to run----even with the too small boiler you see in the picture. It did no work, just operated for brief intervals at low speed, simply as a demonstration. The engine in the background (rusty) was owned by a fellow club member and ran as well. That was the one and only time I ran the engine. Found it in Colorado and purchased it for about $1,200 if memory serves. It was a long time ago, late 80's.



> Do you run any steam in Washington yet?


Not yet, but the induction furnace I mentioned is very much a part of those plans. I would like to build a scale model (1.6"/ft.) of UP's 833, a 4-8-4 engine that was used in passenger or high speed shipping duties. I had the prototype at my disposal for years, when it was on display in Pioneer Park in Salt Lake City. It has since been moved to Ogden, with some talk of eventual restoration. It is the older sister to 844, which has been used for fan trips for many years now. I've seen the engine numerous times, the most recent less than a year ago. It, and the Daylight, were both in Centralia at the same time. Fun stuff!

Harold


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## silversaddle1 (Dec 31, 2008)

Harold_V said:


> I would like to build a scale model (1.6"/ft.) of UP's 833, a 4-8-4 engine that was used in passenger or high speed shipping duties. I had the prototype at my disposal for years, when it was on display in Pioneer Park in Salt Lake City. It has since been moved to Ogden, with some talk of eventual restoration. It is the older sister to 844, which has been used for fan trips for many years now. I've seen the engine numerous times, the most recent less than a year ago. It, and the Daylight, were both in Centralia at the same time. Fun stuff!
> 
> Harold




Oh man Harold, don't get me started on the Union Pacific's FEF3 Northern Class 4-8-4 locomotive #844. Me and that locomotive have quite the history together including me at 13 years old doing a run-by at the throttle while filming a movie for Nebraska Public Television. I have never in my life lived more than 4 miles away from the Union Pacific mainline. I did manage to see the 844 and 4449 double head once, only the 4449 was painted up red, white, and blue, and was the head-end power for the freedom train.


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## Oz (Jan 1, 2009)

Harold,

Using the heat of the cylinder to preheat the boiler water is indeed a neat idea. The rocking valve I am not familiar with (do you have a pic?), as you implied most were a slide valve often of the D configuration. As to the gravity tensioner, I do go to live steam events as often as I can and do not recall one but I am no authority. Much of my interest in old engines is that they were still trying to figure out how to harness and regulate the new technology. I see art in the many innovative solutions they found and that is lost in these years of standardization. I like and own a cold start compression engine (oil, not steam), and I love the concept of the hit or miss firing only when needed. As for steam I have thought of building a triplex engine running the same steam through 3 successive cylinders each using a lower pressure squeezing the most out of the steam.

I may be wrong but I seem to remember a comment about you putting hot water radiant heat flooring into your new home. Have you considered using your low pressure waste steam for heat with it? One of the things I like about steam power in today’s uncertain world of energy is that you can always find something to burn to make steam. You would have electric (or other work) from the mechanical energy and heat as a by-product for your home.

You mentioned that your induction furnace is very much a part of your plans with steam. How do you power your induction furnace? I can see were it would easily make steam and would be great for hobby engines but as you can see above I like the practicality and efficiency aspects of steam as well. It depends on your goal.

I do lathe work but am not a machinist (just grew up with one in the basement), yet know enough to be aware of the labor involved in building a scale locomotive. If you take on a work of art like that I hope you know someone that you can pass it on to that can operate and appreciate it. I worry about some of what I have built being scrapped after I am gone because of no one understanding what to do with it or how to run it.


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## Harold_V (Jan 1, 2009)

Oz said:


> The rocking valve I am not familiar with (do you have a pic?),


Sadly, I do not, but I read about the valve system somewhere long ago. With luck I may be able to find the source once again. If I can, I'll be certain to provide the information for you. 



> I have thought of building a triplex engine running the same steam through 3 successive cylinders each using a lower pressure squeezing the most out of the steam.


Yes, a triplex. You likely know that they were used in steam boats. There's a company in Oregon that may be able to provide a casting kit for just such an engine. It's large enough to power a small launch. If you'd be interested, I'll try to find the contact information. I haven't talked to the owner for some time now, but I still recall his name. Interestingly, this subject and that engine was discussed just a few days ago on the Chaski board.



> I seem to remember a comment about you putting hot water radiant heat flooring into your new home. Have you considered using your low pressure waste steam for heat with it?


There would be many problems associated with that idea, one of which being that the heating system is a closed system, and must remain so to minimize corrosion. It is also not a steam heat system, but a hot water system. Maximum allowable temperature is 180°F, with zone temps held under 130°. Each zone has a mixing valve and circulator pump, so they are independent of one another, although all fed from a common circuit. Recycled discharge water is used to temper the heated water by the mixing valve. Such a system does not tolerate any oil, which would be a problem with recycling steam from an engine. At best, a heat exchanger would be desired, but the intermittent use of any steam device wouldn't justify the complex system. That may not be true if I relied on steam for power, but I don't have enough time left in my life to concentrate on such things, and the degree of efficiency leaves a great deal to be desired. 



> One of the things I like about steam power in today’s uncertain world of energy is that you can always find something to burn to make steam. You would have electric (or other work) from the mechanical energy and heat as a by-product for your home


In my situation, I can harvest wood on my property and keep going for quite some time, but none of that is free of cost, and is labor intensive. If a person has little to do with their time and enjoys cutting trees, that may be a viable solution, but I am not a very physical type of person, and am aging to the point where I don't tolerate hard work well. It would be a huge demand that I could not fulfill, especially considering my age. There are other issues that must be addressed, too. You likely realize that we no longer are free to burn as we wish. We still have open burning capabilities here in Lewis County, but the State is cracking down on burning. Burning wood or other materials would likely create problems with EPA, if not now, in the immediate future. Mind you, I'm not against the idea of steam, but I am not up to fighting with government forces that are slowly eroding our rights. 



> How do you power your induction furnace? I can see were it would easily make steam and would be great for hobby engines but as you can see above I like the practicality and efficiency aspects of steam as well. It depends on your goal.


The induction furnace is a second generation device, meaning it is a motor generator. It is a 50 kw unit, so it is powered by a motor that has a generator built on the same shaft, and is hung vertically. The motor is rated @ 75 hp, and is powered by the three phase delta service that feeds my shop. We have a 400 amp service, which is required to start the power supply. At full output, the furnace requires 196 amps @ 240 volts. Needless to say, a huge amount of heat is generated, so the entire system is water cooled. Even the furnace and generator. That heat could be used, but the infrequent use of the furnace would render it less than desirable as a heat source. If, on the other hand, a person had a business and operated such a device on a daily basis, heat could be stored for later use. I can see no way for me to store enough energy to make a system worthwhile, although I would enjoy having such a system. The one and only saving grace for me is that our power is relatively inexpensive. We pay .0433¢ per kwh here, and that's after an increase from .0333¢ some time ago. 



> I do lathe work but am not a machinist (just grew up with one in the basement), yet know enough to be aware of the labor involved in building a scale locomotive. If you take on a work of art like that I hope you know someone that you can pass it on to that can operate and appreciate it. I worry about some of what I have built being scrapped after I am gone because of no one understanding what to do with it or how to run it.


That is one of the negatives for me. I have no one to pass on my possessions. I have a daughter from my first marriage that chose to turn me out of her life when she was 15 years old. My present wife of almost 32 years was unable to bear children. We have an excellent life together, but no direct family. I expect our estate will go to some worthy charity, likely one dedicated to wild life. I would hope that the right person came along that held the proper interest in steam and models to become an heir. I received one engine just that way when an elderly friend died a few years ago. I have a Little Engines Pacific. The engine was dismantled when the friend died, while he was in the process of replacing the boiler, which had failed after many years of use. I haven't assembled the engine, and likely won't for some time, due to the house building project. I must be free from it before I undertake any large projects, if for no other reason, we live in the shop, so it is not exactly functional as a shop right now. 

Don't feel too sorry for us. The shop is totally finished, with all walls painted and lit with about 40 8' fluorescent light fixtures. It also has a tiled bathroom, built in vacuum cleaner system, hydronic heating and a room that functions as a kitchen, although it is my dedicated investment casting room when the shop is in service. We are very comfortable----but I need my shop. We are both eager to see the house project come to an end. 

Check this link for an update on the Brit's attempt at a steam car. 

www.steamcar.co.uk

Harold


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## Oz (Jan 1, 2009)

At those prices for electric there are few alternative energy projects that would be cost effective.

Many of my rarer or more expensive antique for blacksmithing and carpentry are on “indefinite loan” to me from people that inherited them and wanted to see them used and cared for by someone that would appreciate them. I am in a similar situation as you, I have 4 stepchildren with no interest other than their monetary value, besides that there is only my brother who is 3 years younger. He would know how to use and appreciate the carpentry tools but the rest would only gather dust as he hasn’t a clue to their operation and use.

My great grandfather used to own a gas station (when gas cost only pennies a gallon) and my grandfather as a kid would help. He was amazed by one customer that would fill his tank with water and open a small tin and remove a pill to place in the tank and drive away. This magical car he later found out was a Stanly Steamer. Even as an old man telling the story you could see the amazement he felt as a child about this car play across his face all over again.


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## DNIndustry (Jan 8, 2009)

Was that you inthe picture Harold... 

Im surprised that engine hasnt turned to gold from your midas touch. Seems like you everything does 

I can just picture you jumping up and down like an old time prospector on old cartoons..."its gold I tell ya...GOLD!!!

(Im mean nothing but respect by this)


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## Harold_V (Jan 8, 2009)

DNIndustry said:


> Was that you inthe picture Harold...


The picture of the horizontal Tifft steam engine? 

Yes, that's me, about 15 years ago, however. My hair is now pretty much white. 



> Im surprised that engine hasnt turned to gold from your midas touch. Seems like you everything does


Heh! 

Not so fast!

The castle was one of my less intelligent decisions. Luckily, we landed on our feet. Could have done so much better, though, it the county hadn't stood in our way. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Jan 8, 2009)

silversaddle1 said:


> Oh man Harold, don't get me started on the Union Pacific's FEF3 Northern Class 4-8-4 locomotive #844. Me and that locomotive have quite the history together including me at 13 years old doing a run-by at the throttle while filming a movie for Nebraska Public Television.


Lucky stiff! I can think of no higher glory! If you have any tales you'd like to share, I'm interested. 



> I did manage to see the 844 and 4449 double head once, only the 4449 was painted up red, white, and blue, and was the head-end power for the freedom train.


Funny you should mention that. I have the fondest of memories of seeing the Freedom Train, although only when it was at rest in the UP station in SLC, Utah. I attended the open display and was duly impressed. 

On the subject of double heading, just last year both of those engines were in our area. Quite an impressive sight! Here's a shot of the two coupled. 

For some reason, I missed this post until tonight. Sorry to be so late in responding.

Harold


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## dick b (Jan 9, 2009)

Just to add to this discussion, the UP 844 was just featured on the History Channel in the Extreme trains program. She went from Cheyenne, WY to Denver, CO and back to haul a passenger train of rodeo buffs to the Rodeo. Gotta say I LOVE STEAM! Kinda off discussion but a nice change of pace.


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## silversaddle1 (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey Harold!

Here I though you were just ignoring me!  

When I was 13 years old I landed the lead role in a movie produced by Nebraska Public Television. The move is called "Engine 8444" and is about a young boy who see's a steam locomotive for the first time in his young life. The movie was filmed along the U.P. main line in a small town called Carr, in Colorado. We were there filming for 11 days. The railroad treated us like kings while we were filming. We stayed in Cheyenne when not on location. One day it rained so the railroad guys came and got us and took us on a tour of all the steam facilities in Cheyenne, including a 2 hour tour and walkaround of the roundhouse! Needless to say, I was in heaven! Two days after that we got 8444 for the runby shots. We had the mainline and the train for most of the day. The only time we had to put her in the hole was to allow the Amtrak train to pass. Other than that, it was all ours! The president of the UP was on the train. Everyone who was acting got a cab ride during a run-by. When my turn came up, I got to sit in the engineer's seat and run the loco! 13 years old!!! Now granted, it was a slow run-by, about 30 mph, but it was about 3 miles of total glory for me. It was a day I will remember for the rest of my life. By mid afternoon the word had spread about the 8444 doing run-bys for hours in Carr and the railfans started showing up. The director of the movie was starting to get uptight as he didn't want them in the shots, so the railroad asked them to move down the line, and I think they even loaded them up in a passenger car to move them. It was quite a day. I am trying to get a good quality copy of the movie so we can burn a disc. My VHS copy is about shot! If I get a new copy, I'll send you a disc of it!

Here's a pic of her I shot in 1982 while she was going to the River City Round-up in Omaha. This pic was taken 6 blocks from the house I grew up in.

Scott

[IMG:800:616]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/silversaddle1/84441982.jpg[/img]


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## Harold_V (Jan 21, 2009)

Scott,

Finally, what I can call free time to respond. 

Sorry to have put this on the back burner, but I must put off-topic matters last in line----and I've been inundated with PM's and the other forum of late. It's hell being so popular! 

That's a wonderful story-----one that should serve you for the rest of your life, and certainly not to be duplicated by anyone else. 

Funny----I'm old enough to remember steam. My folks lived only about a block from the mainline D&RG railroad in Midvale, Utah, and a UP spur was about a mile to the east. There was a small spur that ran between the two, which was behind the family home, maybe 100 yards away. I have the fondest of memories standing by engines as they sat idle on the siding at the mainline, or the spur. It all seems much like a dream now. 

For those that have never experienced a steam loco, they are as close as an object can come to being alive, yet still be a machine. When they are equipped with steam driven air compressors, there's a pulsing of sorts that gives one the impression of a monster breathing. Frankly, there's nothing like it today, and we're all poorer for the loss. 

I don't give a damn how fast the drive-by was----how many people do you know that can claim to have pulled a handle on a steam loco------let alone one of the largest to have ever been built? How I envy you your experience!

You said


> My VHS copy is about shot! If I get a new copy, I'll send you a disc of it!



I would cherish such a gift! Please do so if you find it possible, and by all means, sign your name -----for it would be a cherished keepsake. 

I'd be happy to cover the cost of duplication and shipping. 

Thanks for such an enlightening report. 

Harold


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