# smelting black sands to retrieve gold



## Anonymous

FIRST: I am new here and very pleased to see a forum dedicated to refining. I consider chemistry to be a high order of wisdom and knowledge mostly beyond my own comprehension. However I know you are able to explain certain things to us laymen so I am happy to have found you here. I want to learn if a person with no formal knowledge of these things can refine gold nuggets or raw gold into a state of purity.

For now I am resigned that I must pay others to refine my gold.

The Point of My Post:

I read on treasurenet that you can smelt black sand and that four out of every ten grains is actually mirco gold encased in magnetite. I want to learn from all of you to see if there is a consensus among you on this point. Is it profitable to smelt black sands for gold.


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## Harold_V

Read Hoke's book. From it you should learn enough to successfully process the gold you speak of. 

Let me give you something to think about. 

If processing black sands was as easy as you suggest, don't you think everyone would be doing it? Also, if it contained as much gold as you've been lead to believe, don't you think it would be a hot commodity in reality, instead of in the minds of prospectors?

I'm not suggesting, not for a moment, that gold isn't found in black sand---I'm simply saying that it's not anywhere near the rosy picture that has been presented to you. 

Welcome to the forum. 

Harold


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## Shecker

Just as a thought, it takes high temperature to melt magnetite and in that environment the chances of slaging precious metals is very high. A chemical treatment would be better. A simple test with AR and stannus chloride will indicated the presences of precious metals such as gold. 

Chemistry doesn't always have to be exotic. My personal working philosophy is that every ore found in nature has its own unique chemical signature. Find what works with that and you have a successful process. But it can take time, but you cannot buy the learning curve you will receive.

Randy in Gunnison


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## Capt. Norka

I found an article on a web site... sounds like it could or would work... I'll post it here and see what everyone thinks...


"BLACK SAND RECOVERY"

Heres How You Do It
Getting upto 99% of your Gold out of the Black Sand Concentrates

1,[FOR STARTERS] What you'll need to process Black Sand Concentrates.
one #12 classifier
one #20 classifier
two gold pans
water
wash tub 
few 5 gallon buckets.
micro sluice or gold wheel
tumbler
Keene Gravity Bowl

2, Your first few steps.
Classify your material into several sizes
Larger than # 12 [nugget size, you can pick'em out]
Larger than # 20 [micro sluice/gold wheel or you can pan this out, it's really easy]
Smaller than # 20 [this is for your tumbler] 

3,Put the smaller than #20 concentrates into your tumbler
Add acidic acid "white vinegar" and tumble over night
Take concentrates "the tumbled stuff" and add it using a small scoop into a running KGB BOWL
Once finished running the KGB, snuffer out the fine Gold
Take the remaining Black sand "left in the KGB" and mix it with equal amounts of Table salt
Put the mixed product into an iron skillet
heat up untill completely dry "do this outside"
Once really hot and dry, pour the mix into a tub/bucket of cool water
"DON'T PUT THE IRON SKILLET INTO THE WATER" Just dump the sand/salt "this fractures the attached Gold"
Collect up the stuff you just dumped into the cool water
Now run this material thru your KGB gravity bowl
Snuffer up the visible gold when done

4, What did I just do, you ask...
You classified your material by size "largest to smallest".
If you have the necessary equipment "you just eliminated 99% of the panning your concentrates"
By tumbling the smallest size with vinegar "you just cleaned it up and removed the organics"
By roasting it, "you fractured the sodium Gold and attached gold from the black sand"

5, Is it worth it ???
YOU BET IT IS...
Most of the time there is 4 - 10 times more ulta-fine "Micro Gold" in your Black sand than Visible Gold.
Gold is Gold Reguardless of it's size, oh sure the big stuff is great !!! 
But that Fine Gold really can start to add up and do it quickly...
"IF YOU TAKE THE EXTRA TIME AND STEPS TO RECOVER IT"...


Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.


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## Harold_V

Capt. Norka said:


> Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.


Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.

Harold


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## Irons

Harold_V said:


> Capt. Norka said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.
> 
> 
> 
> Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


Recipe for Elephant Stew:

1. Find the Elephant.

....


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## nickvc

Irons said:


> Harold_V said:
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> Capt. Norka said:
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> Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.
> 
> 
> 
> Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.
> 
> Harold
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Recipe for Elephant Stew:
> 
> 1. Find the Elephant.
> 
> ....
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Richard36

nickvc said:


> Irons said:
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> Harold_V said:
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> Capt. Norka said:
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> Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.
> 
> 
> 
> Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.
> 
> Harold
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Recipe for Elephant Stew:
> 
> 1. Find the Elephant.
> 
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...


Well, if anyone "Finds the Elephant", I have the gun, as well as a few recipes, lol.


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## AuMINIMayhem

Richard36 said:


> nickvc said:
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> Irons said:
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> Harold_V said:
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> Capt. Norka said:
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> Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.
> 
> 
> 
> Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.
> 
> Harold
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Recipe for Elephant Stew:
> 
> 1. Find the Elephant.
> 
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, if anyone "Finds the Elephant", I have the gun, as well as a few recipes, lol.
Click to expand...



...and I own a restaraunt who could prepare said elephant in a few different manners. Elephant pizza or grinders, anyone? :mrgreen:


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## eeTHr

The really hard part is convincing the elephant to get into the pot.


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## wrecker45

elephant stew will feed 300 people for 6 months


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## RGJohn

Gold_Striker said:


> I want to learn if a person with no formal knowledge of these things can refine gold nuggets or raw gold into a state of purity.
> I too am new. Yes I think we can learn this here. But actually nuggets command a higher price than the melt value of the gold that they contain.
> -----
> I read on treasurenet that you can smelt black sand and that four out of every ten grains is actually mirco gold encased in magnetite. I want to learn from all of you to see if there is a consensus among you on this point. Is it profitable to smelt black sands for gold.



Smelting is expensive. I would take a small sample of your black sands, say 4 ordinary ounces. I would pan that and pick out all the nuggets with my fingers. I would pick out all the flakes with tweezers. If there are fines I would get them all into one riffle or edge of my pan and physically remove them. With a vacuum or whatever. Never use mercury. THEN, I would do it all again and again until I felt that I had removed ALL the gold. Then I would send the 'tails', that being the remainder of the 4 ounces of black sand to a competent assayer. An assay is a miniature smelting process. Ask that the entire sample be pulverised and blended, then sampled and the sample assayed for gold. This gsp fellow here will do it for only $25 which is cheap by a factor of 2 to 4. The assay result will tell you how much gold was in that black sand that you missed ( if any).If the values justify the expenditure of capital and labor, I would cyanide them in some type of grinding circuit. It is unusual to find this to be the case. Placer gold has been liberated from its matrix for the most part. It has not become entrained in the hematite, etc. People say that because they are unwilling to accept that their concentrate (black sand) is only worth what it is worth.
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On the other hand, some of the pegmatites which produce magnetic iron also contain 'rare earths'. This may be a field, previously overlooked, in that these rare earth elements are perhaps concentrated but ignored in the black sands. Personally, I think that is more likely than that the gold has somehow magically, mysteriously become entrained in the iron. And remains there invisible to all except the guy telling you all this nonsense.
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Gold miners make fishermen seem both accurate and precise in comparison when discussing the 'one that got away' IME. They will declare virtually anything, no matter how preposterous, rather than simply admit that the values are not there. Again IME. Words like micro gold, monatomic gold, 'black box technology' refer to imaginary concepts and often they are used with the intent to cheat the unwary.


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## jeneje

Yes I have personally tried this I can tell you it is a waste of time and money. If you insist on trying it be carefull and do this outside away from anything living. The table salt when heated to the temp, needed to fracture the black sand will put off chlorine gas. BE CAREFUL VERY CAREFUL it is nothing to mess around with.


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## Aurum factorem

> Words like micro gold, monatomic gold, 'black box technology' refer to imaginary concepts and often they are used with the intent to cheat the unwary.



I don't know what "black box tech" is but micron gold and monatomic gold are certainly not imaginary concepts. Gold deposits that are too small to see do exist and can definitely be extracted if present. Gold tied up in sulfides and tellurides for instance... It is true that these concepts are used to cheat the unwary. The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)

-A.F.


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## Aurum factorem

> The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)



Correction: chemical means exist but are generally too messy (AR) or dangerous (Halides, cyanide, etc.) Amalgamation could work but is also generally too dangerous for my taste.

-A.F.


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## dtectr

Aurum factorem said:


> The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)
> 
> 
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> 
> Correction: chemical means exist but are generally too messy (AR) or dangerous (Halides, cyanide, etc.) Amalgamation could work but is also generally too dangerous for my taste.
> 
> -A.F.
Click to expand...

And I thought Alchemy was dead ... Long Live the Wizard !!!

If your plan for success is "I have some hidden knowledge that no one else possesses, except the guy who SOLD it to me ..."

Sorry - (not really)


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## djui5

Aurum factorem said:


> Correction: chemical means exist but are generally too messy (AR)
> 
> -A.F.



What do you mean by "messy"?


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## Steppegold

A suggestion for detecting gold inside black sand...

Most black sand does NOT contain microscopic gold in economic quantities, or else the gold price would take a tumble.
But sure, sometimes it DOES and then the baby is thrown out with the tailings and the bathwater.

We use the following trick in Mongolia.
1: notice that gold is remarkably soft and malleable.
2: notice that black sands are often brittle and not malleable (e.g. magnetite).
3: put dry black sand on a sheet of clean steel.
4: beat the black sand with a small hammer.
5: the black sand grains shatter.
6: any gold is released.
7: any gold is either tiny and visible only with a x40 to x100 stereo-zoom microscope, or is big enough to be beaten flat and rendered large enough to be seen by eye in bright light.
8: use a feather to gently scrape away the shattered black sand.
9: gently blow to gently blow away more shattered black sand.

Cheap, quick and interesting.
Usually there is no gold, but then when there is....!! :lol: 

Steppe
http://www.mine.mn


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## bubba

I have sat with most of the major smelters in north america, europe, and japan either at their facility or at mine. The common denominator seems to be, that they all seem to work on about $1.00 a lb. And this is with serious volume, like 40,000 lb. lots.
So this means that your material must me worth at least $2,000 a ton just to break even (not including freight to the smelter)


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## RGJohn

Aurum factorem said:


> Words like micro gold, monatomic gold, 'black box technology' refer to imaginary concepts and often they are used with the intent to cheat the unwary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what "black box tech" is but micron gold and monatomic gold are certainly not imaginary concepts. Gold deposits that are too small to see do exist and can definitely be extracted if present. Gold tied up in sulfides and tellurides for instance... It is true that these concepts are used to cheat the unwary. The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)
> 
> -A.F.
Click to expand...


Are fire assay and smelting 2 distinctly different processes? My understanding was that each reduced metallic oxides, chlorides, sulphides, what-the-heck-have-ya into metals.
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In what particular(s) do they differ? Isn't the intended pupose of the fire assay to replicate (upon minature scale) the results which one would reasonably expect to obtain from the smelter (the same process but on a macro scale)? 
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What makes one a reducing process in your estimation and how specifically and why does it differ from the oxidizing process of the other?


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## Harold_V

Bear in mind, I have never done assaying. I've relied on those with expertise when it was needed. 

Assaying and smelting are most likely not remotely the same thing. In assaying, and I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong----lead in the way of litharge is used to oxidize the charge, and also to gather the values. In smelting, that would not be true. Both are heat processes that require melting and/or dissolving gangue.

Their purpose, while related, is not the same. Assaying is to ascertain the content of an ore. One would then research the ore to make a determination on how it would be best processed, using assaying, once again, to determine how effectively the extraction procedure performed. 

Now I'd like to hear from those that have assaying experience to correct me where I'm wrong. 

Harold


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## ayeyou

It is without a doubt a fact that some black sands carry little in economic values of gold but I feel I must make a point here. I have been prospecting and placer gold mining for almost thirty years now and have taken samples of black sands from Northern B.C. through Washington , Oregon , California and Nevada. All yes all of these samples have assayed at over three ounces per ton. The mine I am currently working has very valuable black sand concentrates. I have had four assays done now and the latest one which is the first that is a sample of concentrates from my sluice box after ALL visible gold was removed came in at 79 ounces per ton gold still remaining in my black sand "tailings". The check assay was 84 ounces per ton. 
It may be that as some elude to here on this board that us miners are just a bunch of foolhardy daydreamers that think their black sands are worth a fortune, but I ask what computer chips are worth $130,000. per ton? We all have our interest and some work harder at them than others and as a result find success , all I ask is everyone get a little respect . I know I have worked long and hard enough to earn mine.
I also would like to say to fellow placer or hard rock miners assays cost as little as $100 and if knowing what you have in the deposit you are working is not worth that much then you should probably put away the gold pan and just spend the weekend watching football. If you don't know what you have how do you know what you can spend to chase it?

The assay is attached .I made a note on the side for those that may not know what an assay looks like or how they are read.


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## RGJohn

ayeyou said:


> It is without a doubt a fact that some black sands carry little in economic values of gold but I feel I must make a point here. I have been prospecting and placer gold mining for almost thirty years now and have taken samples of black sands from Northern B.C. through Washington , Oregon , California and Nevada. All yes all of these samples have assayed at over three ounces per ton. The mine I am currently working has very valuable black sand concentrates. I have had four assays done now and the latest one which is the first that is a sample of concentrates from my sluice box after ALL visible gold was removed came in at 79 ounces per ton gold still remaining in my black sand "tailings". The check assay was 84 ounces per ton.
> It may be that as some elude to here on this board that us miners are just a bunch of foolhardy daydreamers that think their black sands are worth a fortune, but I ask what computer chips are worth $130,000. per ton? We all have our interest and some work harder at them than others and as a result find success , all I ask is everyone get a little respect . I know I have worked long and hard enough to earn mine.
> I also would like to say to fellow placer or hard rock miners assays cost as little as $100 and if knowing what you have in the deposit you are working is not worth that much then you should probably put away the gold pan and just spend the weekend watching football. If you don't know what you have how do you know what you can spend to chase it?
> 
> The assay is attached .I made a note on the side for those that may not know what an assay looks like or how they are read.



Ayeyou sent me a copy of this by PM and I congratulate ayeyou upon his remarkable and new found wealth.


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## accent

ayeyou,

So what have you found is the best way to recover the values in you black sand?


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## PMgeek

Have you tried to use XRF to assess values?


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## g_axelsson

Don't expect a quick answer, ayeyou haven't visited the forum in the last five years.

Göran


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## Heavy-Black-Sand

ayeyou said:


> The mine I am currently working has very valuable black sand concentrates. I have had four assays done now and the latest one which is the first that is a sample of concentrates from my sluice box after ALL visible gold was removed came in at 79 ounces per ton gold still remaining in my black sand "tailings". The check assay was 84 ounces per ton.
> It may be that as some elude to here on this board that us miners are just a bunch of foolhardy daydreamers that think their black sands are worth a fortune, but I ask what computer chips are worth $130,000. per ton?



This type of analysis above is where most people get lead astray ... the fact is; the first couple feet in a sluice box is generally where the heaviest Black Sand drops out and gets concentrated ... generally speaking; as you progress down the sluice box, the Black Sand in your riffles carry increasingly lower values ... then when you get to the Black Sand located in your tailings pond, it has even lower values still.


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## cosmetal

Very true.

However, even before you send out for an assay, getting an accurate and representative concentrate assay sample is very critical to your assay's final accuracy. To get meaningful information, you should take equal size samples from each area of the process stream in which you are interested in finding out PM content. Then mix all samples and mill/grind that mixed batch to ~100 mesh. This ~100 mesh master sample should then be processed through a riffle splitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riffle_splitter then send the riffled sample to your assayer who should further grind your split sample to a finer mesh and re-split before getting your final assay test sample.

Peace and health,
James


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## Heavy-Black-Sand

Heavy-Black-Sand said:


> ayeyou said:
> 
> 
> 
> The mine I am currently working has very valuable black sand concentrates. I have had four assays done now and the latest one which is the first that is a sample of concentrates from my sluice box after ALL visible gold was removed came in at 79 ounces per ton gold still remaining in my black sand "tailings". The check assay was 84 ounces per ton.
> It may be that as some elude to here on this board that us miners are just a bunch of foolhardy daydreamers that think their black sands are worth a fortune, but I ask what computer chips are worth $130,000. per ton?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This type of analysis above is where most people get lead astray ... the fact is; the first couple feet in a sluice box is generally where the heaviest Black Sand drops out and gets concentrated ... generally speaking; as you progress down the sluice box, the Black Sand in your riffles carry increasingly lower values ... then when you get to the Black Sand located in your tailings pond, it has even lower values still.
Click to expand...


Also ... if your just relying on a Sluice to concentrate micron Gold & Black Sand ... your not going to get much material, as a sluice, by it's very nature can only hold a fixed amount of concentrate, whether you run 10 cubic yards or 100 cubic yards, the sluice can only capture a fixed amount of material - and it typically isnt alot ..... so, if you've got alot of micron gold and black sand in your gravel and your running volume; a Jig or similar "continuous recovery" type device that can capture nearly all the Black Sand cons (if it's set up right) ... although, running a jig isn't easy, as i've seen a huge range in operator competency, for example; using the same jig, i've seen 1 operator produce a jig concentrate that weighed aprox. 20% black sand by weight, as opposed to a true jig expert who came in and with his tweeks/expertise was able to produce a jig concentrate that was aprox. 75% black sand by weight using the same jig.


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## orvi

if you are close to the source of gold, then finding gold-rich "black sands" could be i think more probable. from the point of geology, i cannot fully understand by which process would the gold end up enclosed in magnetite. we should then know similar hard rock deposits, where they come together in the ore. 
hematite gold ore exists, but im in doubt that ammount of gold in the concentrate would be so high. hematite isnt especially very tough mineral, breaks relatively easily in comparison with eg quartz, so liberation of the gold from these "veins" should be relatively progressive. 
but i can imagine the gold being microscopic, that it cannot be separated by gravity methods. then it could make sense, finding so much gold in black sands and not on the bottom of your pan.
on the other hand, sulfides enclose the gold and silver much more often, and being close to the source of gold, they could be still in the creekbed (not fully decomposed, espetially antimony and arsenopyrite), forming a deposit. but this time, the black sands will not be that "black" 
anyway... very interesting that somebody found a fortune in black sands. here where i live, we also have some "legends" that for every gram of gold panned from cons from some unspecified river, there is 1/3g more gold and 10g of silver captured in black sands  as always, unconclusive, no straight answers, secrets everywhere...


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## jobinyt

What is your ratio of black sand captured to infeed?


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