# Our New House



## FrugalRefiner

A couple of years ago, just as I was planning my refining lab, my wife told me she wanted to move from the house we'd lived in for over 20 years. We have grown older, and the stairs in our home, the hillside location, and father time have made this a less than ideal home.

This past Monday, we closed on a new home. It's a ranch, so everything we need is on one level, though it does have a partial basement. The lot is fairly level where the house is located, but then drops off down to a nice creek/stream, a bit of which runs through our property. It's not a very attractive house, but it suits our needs.


It includes this neat old barn.


And a newer pole barn. 


And this old concrete pad just a bit off into the woods. Hmmm... I wonder what I could build there?...


Dave


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## jonn

Congratulations Dave, it looks perfect!


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## jason_recliner

Looks brilliant Dave! Some great potential roof space for solar panels too.
I wish you many years enjoying your new home.


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## solar_plasma

Lovely! Would you please post a picture of the creek/stream?


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## Smack

The roof looks nice and straight and good size for cleaning. Those 3, 4 or 5k square ft. pads are hard to keep clean for just 2 people, nice choice Dave. I like the setting and buildings. Looks like about 28'x36 pole barn? Check that concrete pad for footings.


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## Anonymous

Looks great Dave - plenty of potential for mass production there too 8) 8)


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## Barren Realms 007

The place looks great. I'm sure you will enjoy it and gather many new memories there.


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## Silver Sliver

Congratulations Dave! Looks really nice!


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## 4metals

Very nice Dave, good luck. 

Since this is a refining forum I should be thinking of how you can set up a refinery in one of the sheds, but that's the way I usually think. Then you mentioned the "S" word and it peaked my attention. I have 1000 feet of frontage on a pretty large creek behind my house (actually about 1000 feet away and 70 feet lower than the house) and I've made a rocky shallow creek turn itself into a nice 4 foot deep swimming hole about 20' by 30'. Great place to cool off on those hot summer days.

How much land do you have?


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## resabed01

WOW! That looks like a lot of grass to cut!
Nice property


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## samuel-a

Congrats Dave.

I hope you'll find peace of mind with your new property for the years to come.
Instinctively, my mind wondered the same as 4metals did... Those barns looks like a great place to setup.

:mrgreen:


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## FrugalRefiner

Thanks everyone! 

jason, you're right, there is a fair amount of roof for solar, but it will actually be on the back side of the house. 

Björn, here are a couple of pictures of the creek, although by the time it gets to our property, it's really more of a stream. This one is not on our property. It's a couple hundred feet upstream from us, but it will give you some idea of the size.

This one is looking down on it from our wooded back yard. 
Unfortunately, I couldn't get down to it today. The property is all wooded on the back half. It slopes down gradually for a good way, but there's a good 20 to 30 foot drop off to the stream. I'll work on getting down there in the future, probably by walking down the stream from the waterfall, but I wasn't prepared for that today. Eventually, I'll build some access, as the stream looks like a good place for a few crawfish traps. Yummy!

Smack, the house is about 2,200 ft2, just right for the two of us. The pole barn is 36 x 45. I've been told by neighbors who've lived there for 30 years that the concrete pad used to support a garage. It should serve well for a small lab.

Jon, I doubt I'll ever gear up to your level, though I do hope to cultivate a few small, local clients someday.

4metals, you've already helped me design my new lab in  The assay / refining lab.....second time around. It's just a tad over 2 acres.

resabed, there is quite a lot of grass, but it's pretty much all flat. There's more grass at the new house than where we are now, but our current yard is all hilly, so the new yard will be much easier.

Sam, the existing buildings will be mainly storage. I'll be building a stand alone lab on the concrete pad tucked back in the woods away from prying eyes.

Thank you all for the comments!

Dave


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## MarcoP

I love it! Lot of potential and most important is all around one level but the creek (way better this way in case of floods).

Congrats!


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## Platdigger

Beautiful place Frugal. Looks very serene.


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## 4metals

> I'll build some access, as the stream looks like a good place for a few crawfish traps. Yummy!



You would eat crayfish? You're sounding more like a southern boy every day! I often throw a minnow trap in my creek and always come back to a few fingerling brown trout (which I let go in the stream) and half a dozen crayfish. They're about 3 - 4" long. I put them in my farm pond for the bass to eat. Have any good crayfish recipes? I'll eat anything once!!!!!!


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## g_axelsson

Nice place! I wish I had something like that... still looking.
Crayfish sounds delicious. There's none where I live so we usually buy imported ones and eat in the end of the summer.

Göran


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## FrugalRefiner

Crayfish (crawfish, crawdads, mud bugs) are delicious! They're just mini-lobsters! A half dozen will give you a taste, but it will leave you wanting more. 

The classic is a crawfish boil. Lots of cajun spice in the boil with some potatoes, corn, etc. They're great deep fried (but what isn't?). Peel them out, season, dredge in flour, then egg wash, then cracker crumbs and deep fry for about 2 to 3 minutes. That would be a good way to go if you just have a few and want to sample them. They make an awesome crawfish and swiss quiche (yes, I eat quiche). You can't go wrong with étouffée. You can substitute them for pretty much anything you might do with shrimp. 

Oh, now I'm hungry!

Dave


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## solar_plasma

I don't know the fauna in america that well, but if this stream were in northern europe, I would guess there are trouts, pikes and eels, too.


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## FrugalRefiner

solar_plasma said:


> I don't know the fauna in america that well, but if this stream were in northern europe, I would guess there are trouts, pikes and eels, too.


I expect to find mainly bass, catfish, and sunfish (bluegill, crappie, etc.), along with some others. 

Dave


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## FrugalRefiner

I copied this image from the county auditor's site. My property is actually two parcels, one with the house (blue outline), and the second with the barns (red outline).
Dave


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## jason_recliner

So much sunlight. I see an awful lot of veggie patch growing potential.


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## FrugalRefiner

jason_recliner said:


> So much sunlight. I see an awful lot of veggie patch growing potential.


I hope! It depends on whether I can keep the critters out. :twisted: I've battled them for years where we live now. Fence, electric fence, traps... The racoons are the worst. They'll take a hit from the electric fence and keep on going to get to a nice veggie garden.

Dave


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## Research135

FrugalRefiner said:


> jason_recliner said:
> 
> 
> 
> So much sunlight. I see an awful lot of veggie patch growing potential.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope! It depends on whether I can keep the critters out. :twisted: I've battled them for years where we live now. Fence, electric fence, traps... The racoons are the worst. They'll take a hit from the electric fence and keep on going to get to a nice veggie garden.
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

Racoon burgers... hehe. Traps better than rifles, I suppose. :shock:


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## FrugalRefiner

Research135 said:


> Racoon burgers... hehe. Traps better than rifles, I suppose. :shock:


The parking lot you see in the lower right of the last picture is for school busses. I have a high school next to me. I don't think they'd appreciate me shooting at anything.

Dave


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## Research135

FrugalRefiner said:


> Research135 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Racoon burgers... hehe. Traps better than rifles, I suppose. :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> The parking lot you see in the lower right of the last picture is for school busses. I have a high school next to me. I don't think they'd appreciate me shooting at anything.
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

Yeah. I guess that's the dealbreaker. Go with the traps!.


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## macfixer01

FrugalRefiner said:


> Crayfish (crawfish, crawdads, mud bugs) are delicious! They're just mini-lobsters! A half dozen will give you a taste, but it will leave you wanting more.
> 
> The classic is a crawfish boil. Lots of cajun spice in the boil with some potatoes, corn, etc. They're great deep fried (but what isn't?). Peel them out, season, dredge in flour, then egg wash, then cracker crumbs and deep fry for about 2 to 3 minutes. That would be a good way to go if you just have a few and want to sample them. They make an awesome crawfish and swiss quiche (yes, I eat quiche). You can't go wrong with étouffée. You can substitute them for pretty much anything you might do with shrimp.
> 
> Oh, now I'm hungry!
> 
> Dave




Aren't crawfish the same thing they call Langostinos at the Red Lobster restaurants and charge good money for? 
Great property there, lots of working space!

Macfixer01


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## Smack

Live trap from have a hart works great with can of sardines in it and the lid cracked open just enough to let the smell out.


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## jason_recliner

FrugalRefiner said:


> I have a high school next to me. I don't think they'd appreciate me shooting at anything.


Speaking from outside the USA, would anyone notice? :mrgreen: 
Just kidding, I'm sure Ohio is a nice, quiet place. I visited suburban Dayton a while back and thought it was lovely. Particularly delightful was that the neighbourhood had NO fences at all.


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## kurtak

VERY nice new property Dave :!: 8) 



jason_recliner said:


> Looks brilliant Dave! Some great potential roof space for solar panels too.
> I wish you many years enjoying your new home.





> jason, you're right, there is a fair amount of roof for solar, but it will actually be on the back side of the house.



Do you know that it cost "more" in energy to build a solar panel then you can expect to get out of in its expected life time before it needs to be replaced

In other words - more energy is "spent" making a solar panel then it will produce before the very sun that powers it has broke it down to the point that it becomes inefficient in producing power & thereby needs replacing

The cost in money to buy & install with "current" solar panels is at about a break even point (plus/minus) of what it would cost to be plugged into the grid - & that is only because most solar panels are now made in China where labor is cheap - so money cost & "energy" cost are two different things - & the fact is that "energy" cost to make a panel is greater then the energy the panel will produce

The point is that if you are installing panels to reduce the energy used by main grid power (coal, natural gas, hydro, nuclear etc.) your not - in fact just the opposite - you are spending more main grid energy

And NO my info does not come from B.S. spouted by the anti global warming faction - but rather 2 independent sources 

(1) Conversation with a R.&D. engineer working for Honeywell that was in charge of the number crunching of solar panel production

(2) My brother who is a (now retired) master industrial electrical engineer

Both of these men will tell you that "currently" the cost in energy to build both solar power &/or wind power is greater then the energy they will produce in there expected working life span

The monetary cost has been brought down - but that is only because the systems &/or components for the systems - for the most part are being made in China 

So from an environmental point - if you are installing panels to reduce spent energy cost - you might want to re-think your purpose

On the other hand - you can reduce the strain on your local grid by installing panels - but your just importing the greater energy cost to make them then they will produce from somewhere else - but you are not really reducing the environmental energy cost impact in the big picture - that greater energy cost is just being spent elsewhere then your back yard

Kurt


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## maynman1751

Where are you in Ohio Dave? Anywhere near where they pan for gold in southwest Ohio? Great looking digs Dave. I think that you're going to like it there. 8) 8) 8) 8)


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## g_axelsson

kurtak said:


> Do you know that it cost "more" in energy to build a solar panel then you can expect to get out of in its expected life time before it needs to be replaced
> 
> In other words - more energy is "spent" making a solar panel then it will produce before the very sun that powers it has broke it down to the point that it becomes inefficient in producing power & thereby needs replacing


Up until five years ago they did. Now they produce more energy than put into it in production.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-04/solar-panels-now-make-more-electricity-they-use (Stanford report)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/solar-cells-prove-cleaner-way-to-produce-power/ (Scientific American)

I think this study only looks at the production and not transportation and installation and reaches the conclusion that PV-panels can have a payback time of 1 to 4 years, the rest of the lifetime they produce more energy than was put into it during manufacturing.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

Solar panels are great to have where energy prices are high and sun is in abundance, I got a friend in Barbados and he pays ten times as much as I do for electricity.
Solar panels are also great on remote sites where the grid doesn't reach, boats, cabins, mobile equipment, measurement systems... and so on. It all depends on the circumstances.

Göran


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## glorycloud

Anybody have a good plan for how to build a crawfish trap? I fish a lot and I fish jigs that
imitate a crawfish. Why not put a trap out in the lake I fish and use the real thing? 8)


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## rickbb

I keep wondering if solar is such a losing proposition, why are all the power companies and their paid politicians suddenly trying so hard to put them out of business. Especially now that it seems to be coming into it's own with the newer models much more efficient than the earlier ones. They are even a few in the lab that are now 60% efficient. When they work out getting those into mass production to bring the costs down, look out.

And since solar panels last almost forever, how can it cost more to make one than it produces in power "over it's lifetime"? Wouldn't it continue to produce power almost infinitely? Eventually it would have to cross that return on investment threshold.


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## Barren Realms 007

glorycloud said:


> Anybody have a good plan for how to build a crawfish trap? I fish a lot and I fish jigs that
> imitate a crawfish. Why not put a trap out in the lake I fish and use the real thing? 8)



You can find some stuff on traps on youtube.


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## artart47

Hi Dave!
Really great you getting your new place. I've been in mine for almost a year and a half now. Already, when I'm up north working, I get home sick and wish I could be just sitting in my home. Before you know it, it'll be that way for you.
You got a beautiful place there! Are there a lot of cracks in the bedrock under the creek? Ha ha!
A solution for the raccoon problem! Put that invisible fence around your garden, then put the shock collars on the raccoons. 
Hope you have many good years there.
artart47


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## Shark

Nice place! The creek just adds to the appeal even more. 

Crawfish traps can be built several ways. For quick and simple, you can use a minnow trap with some adjustment to the opening in the mouth of the trap. When we were kids we made them by folding a soda can back and forth until it broke open on one side. Tied a string to the tab and baited with a small piece of pork and dropped them in any smallish stream we could find. I have used many of the square type made by Berkley some years ago and they worked well. Wal-Mart used to carry them for around $7 each. At one time youtube had a nice video of how to make a commercial type trap that had good detail and was well explained.


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## 4metals

I really live in the woods, no neighbors to speak of and woods and fields. That seems to be a magnet for deer, raccoons, gopher, oh and don't forget black bears. They all, well not the bears, loved to munch on my garden. 

This year I put up a picket fence 4' high with a mesh screen buried in the soil so nothing goes under, and electric fence to 8' to keep the deer out. It worked well, tomatoes so heavy they are breaking the bamboo tripod supports and tons of root crops. Never had such success when there were unlimited varmints eating their fill. And temporary fences never worked. 

This is my "secured" back yard.







Seems a shame to have to fence off a section of what I have just to defend it from the wildlife but the efforts seem to be well worth it.


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## FrugalRefiner

I forgot! Crawfish Po Boy!

Interesting information on solar panels guys.

maynman, I'm in southwest Ohio, outside Cincinnati. I've done some panning and pulled out some small flakes.

Art, that's it! I never thought about putting collars on the racoons!!

Glad to see you posting Shark.

4metals, that looks great! I, too, buried steel mesh below grade to keep out the burrowing vermin, and that worked well. It was the racoons that were my enemies. Do you not have a problem with them?

Dave


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## 4metals

I had lots of trouble with 'coons until the new fence. Now they're not bothering anything inside the fence. They're still around though, they routinely visit the pond and dig up mussels and leave the cleaned out shells on the shore. I'm just glad they respect the fence. 

I had big problems with river otters eating all of my fish in the pond but I put in fish habitat structure and now I guess the fish can hide well enough that the otters don't bother any more. That's what I was told to do by the Pond Boss forum and it worked.


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## macfixer01

I see the discussion turned to solar panels. Here's an interesting development I came across a couple days ago. The energy companies already have the politicians in their pockets, and get rubber stamps for rate increases when they want them. Now they want to force solar users to buy all their electricity off the grid at retail, then make them sell back everything they produce with the solar panels at a wholesale rate. WTF? If I'm reading this correctly you can't just buy solar panels and use them to power your own home even if you have no interest in selling the excess?

http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2015/08/solar_owners_may_not_be_able_t.html

Macfixer01


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## 4metals

Years ago the concept of net metering made all of the calculations to put a solar panel system a worthwhile investment, if the Chinese panels last 20 years :roll:, but now states are rolling the benefits of net metering back and the payoff of solar is less appealing. 

Net metering also allowed users to bypass battery storage systems and "run their meter backwards" with energy they generated in their panels. That saves a lot of cash as battery storage can be pricey. Here in Pennsylvania they are slowly but surely cutting back on those savings as time passes. I have a neighbor who has panels (a 6.5 kw system) and if (and when, power goes out in rural PA often) there is no power he has no use of what he generates either. The setup he has does not allow him to use the power he generates even in a power down scenario.

I have an excellent potential for micro hydro here, but in PA the state owns the water and I own the land under it and permitting for micro hydro are daunting. They don't want me to take the energy out of their water. They also own the water in my farm pond, I just get the land under the water. I doubt Ohio will let Dave develop micro hydro from that stream either.


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## jason_recliner

I've had my solar on for just over 4 years. It paid itself off financially about a year or two ago. In February this year I added battery storage and it is _just awesome_. Disclaimer: I am actually in the battery backup grid inverter industry.

We had a massive thunderstorm the night after I finished installing it, so I turned on all the outside lights and waited for the rest of the neighbourhood to go dark. :mrgreen: 

We now have Time Of Day tariff, in that it costs about 35c / kWh between 7am and 11pm, but only 14c at night and weekends. So during daytime, the house load power load is drawn from the battery bank while any sunshine is exported to the grid, for which I get credited about 68c (Premium Feed-In Tariff).

After 11pm, I charge from the grid. You might think I should be just using my own solar energy but not only it is financially beneficial for me to time shift the grid, but I reduce the overall reliance on coal further by supplying my neighbours with peak power, reducing _their_ use of coal. And I recharge off-peak, because you can't just switch off a power station at night.

But the real grinner was a couple of weeks ago. There was a cockatoo sitting on the overhead grid feed-in cable from the street, waiting for a feed. "That's strange," I thought. Because that cable was grey a week earlier, now it's black! Apparently the utility replaced them all (without notification of course) and I was not at all affected by the half hour outage, which I found later in the inverter's logs.


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## kurtak

rickbb said:


> And since solar panels last almost forever, how can it cost more to make one than it produces in power "over it's lifetime"? Wouldn't it continue to produce power almost infinitely? Eventually it would have to cross that return on investment threshold.



Solar panels do not last forever :!: 

Like anything & everything else in this world of ours they start to break down & degrade due to exposure to the elements - the sun its self that powers them also works at breaking them down & degrading them - ad to that vibration caused by the wind & wind blown dust that builds up on them &/or scratches the surface - moisture from rain &/or humidity causing corrosion to the frame work & sooner or later gets past seals & into the panel its self causing internal corrosion &/or fogging - Ice & snow in northern climates - very hard on everything including solar panels - expansion from heat during the day & contraction from cooling at night

These elements sooner - or later - destroy "everything" exposed to them - & over time the destructive power of these elements increases --- meaning after 10 years these thing do more damage then they do in the first year of exposure - so they start to degrade faster as time goes on

Kurt


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## kurtak

jason_recliner said:


> I've had my solar on for just over 4 years. It paid itself off financially about a year or two ago.



Jason 

We are taking about two different things here

You are talking about paying off panels that were built cheap because they were built in China (or elsewhere that labor is "cheap") & then hooking them into a power grid where labor is high (labor - a big part of the grid power bill) --- this is a monetary comparison - so yes you saved money & did so in a short time 

I am taking about the "energy spent" compared to energy returned - or - how much "carbon" is produced to provide the energy to make the panels compared to how much energy the panels have to produce to pay back the "carbon spent" to make the panels

I don't know actual labor cost so am using hypothetical numbers here for the general idea

China factory labor cost $1 or $2 per man hour

USA factory labor cost $12 - $16 per man hour

the point being you got the panels "cheap" because of cheap labor cost - if the panels had been built in the USA they would have cost significantly more & you would still be paying for them

Now you have taken those cheap produced panels & hooked them into a power grid where the greater cost of that power is NOT the cost of fuel to produce the power (carbon spent) but rather all other cost such as employee labor ($25 - $45 per man hour) high 5 figure & 6 figure administrative salaries, equipment maintenance & replacement, company profits (to entice investors to invest) & dividends paid out to share holders etc. --- the fuel (carbon spent) is a very VERY small part of your grid power bill

Now the carbon spent (from carbon producing power plants) to "make" the panels is the same whether the panels are made in the USA or made in China because regardless of where they are made the energy needed to make them is the same

Carbon spending (energy used) starts at the mining of the raw material - goes to turning the raw material into usable material - goes to turning the usable material into components - goes to assembly of panels - goes to distribution of finished product - & transporting between each of those things

And its not just the panels them selves that have a carbon cost but the rest of the system that makes solar panels usable - like storage (batteries) that don't last as long as the panels & need replacing - inverters (that fail & need replacing)- control panel to make the solar DC system work with the AC grid system - & the wiring its self

All of those things require "carbon spent energy" to make before you can put it together, hook it up & use it

Granted - your solar system has helped to reduce the carbon spending "at your local grid" --- but carbon got spent - somewhere - in order to make the system for you to use in your location - in other words - you imported carbon spent somewhere else to save on carbon spending at your location

The carbon cost - this is the cost I am talking about - how much used power does your solar system need to produce before it has paid back the carbon spent to make it (keep in mind the carbon cost is the same whether made in China or in your home town - AND - keep in mind that the carbon cost of your grid power bill is a very VERY small part of that bill - the loins share of your grid bill are "other" cost)

Example - your peak grid charge is 35c per KWH - here our peak grid charge is 25c per KWH - so it would take me longer to pay off the very same system that you have from the money cost end of it 

However - it does not matter if the system is at my place or at your place - paying off the carbon cost is the same because the carbon cost to make the system & the carbon saved by the system is the same regardless of place

If the system was made in your home town it would cost much more money then if made in China - but the carbon cost stays the same

So the question is not - can you install a solar system - pay for it - then start saving money over the cost of staying hooked up to the grid

But rather - how much & how long does a solar system need to provide power to pay back the carbon spent to make the system

I will bet your system is still paying that cost back - if ALL true carbon cost were in fact factored in

Kurt


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## Research135

Kurt: 

What rifles do you use to service the different animals that walk by your yard?. Also if you have any knowledge of hanging the animals to 'ripen', I'd love to learn!.

Thanks!.


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## Research135

4metals said:


> I really live in the woods, no neighbors to speak of and woods and fields. That seems to be a magnet for deer, raccoons, gopher, oh and don't forget black bears. They all, well not the bears, loved to munch on my garden.
> 
> This year I put up a picket fence 4' high with a mesh screen buried in the soil so nothing goes under, and electric fence to 8' to keep the deer out. It worked well, tomatoes so heavy they are breaking the bamboo tripod supports and tons of root crops. Never had such success when there were unlimited varmints eating their fill. And temporary fences never worked.
> 
> Seems a shame to have to fence off a section of what I have just to defend it from the wildlife but the efforts seem to be well worth it.



That's very nice. How many deer can you see in a week?. What's the best bait for them?. Can you hunt them legally inside your property?. I'm moving to Pennsylvania!.


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## 4metals

> How many deer can you see in a week?



Easily a dozen plus a day. The bucks have full racks already, early for that. 



> What's the best bait for them?



I think the best bait is my garden! Or plant anything from the nursery that is expensive and they'll be there. The locals who hunt the deer put out corn to feed them and a salt lick. But it all has to be removed and cleaned up before hunting season opens or you will get some hefty fines. 



> Can you hunt them legally inside your property?



Only in hunting season, some farmers are told that if they do substantial damage to their crops or property they can hunt them out of season but most feel they would get into big trouble so they don't bother. They don't seem to trust what the Fish and Game Commision tell them.


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## Research135

That's so cool!.


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## jason_recliner

kurtak said:


> jason_recliner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've had my solar on for just over 4 years. It paid itself off financially about a year or two ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jason
> 
> We are taking about two different things here
Click to expand...

We're not really. That's why I specifically used the word financially. I read your earlier post too. But I respectfully think you're wrong. Just because your two sources have heard the same myth, doesn't make it true.

I estimate my PV system alone will break even at about 3-5 years. So it will have likely paid off its production energy somewhere between last year and next year.



> Now the carbon spent (from carbon producing power plants) to "make" the panels is the same whether the panels are made in the USA or made in China because regardless of where they are made the energy needed to make them is the same


Agreed.



> And its not just the panels them selves that have a carbon cost but the rest of the system that makes solar panels usable - like storage (batteries) that don't last as long as the panels & need replacing - inverters (that fail & need replacing)- control panel to make the solar DC system work with the AC grid system - & the wiring its self


My batteries have an expected 8-9 years life. I use sealed lead acid batteries because they are 100% recyclable. Every bit of lead, sulphuric acid and plastic can be turned into new batteries. Lithium flavours have a better energy density, but I don't like to think where they're going at EOL.



> Granted - your solar system has helped to reduce the carbon spending "at your local grid" --- but carbon got spent - somewhere - in order to make the system for you to use in your location - in other words - you imported carbon spent somewhere else to save on carbon spending at your location


True. But remember, that time shifting alone also reduces carbon twice. I reduce coal use in the day, and use coal waste [edit: i.e., off peak energy they really want to get used up] a night. The more a powerstation can even out its load, the less it will use.

What's the alternative? Keep burning coal?


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## justinhcase

what wonderful places you and 4metals have to live.
I am quite jealous as I have so much work to get through before I can have my feet up.
Unfortunately I had the very bright Idea of putting an extension on my house and gave the contract to a complete shyster.
But on the bright side I now know how to completely support a three story brick building with scaffolding and I-beams.
(The shyster waited until I had a day away from site and took a supporting wall out ,with out installing the agreed upon foundation's. :roll: )
Take out the lower floor completely and replace it with high strengths reinforced engineered columns and spread draft foundations.
I am very proud of the work.
Now I am eight feet down a hole wrestling with absolutely gorgeous sewerage piping.
I can not wait until I have a floor and roof again and may be some years after that escaping to a place as lovely as your abode..


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## Research135

I understand there are two types of solar systems: One for water heating, etc. And the other one for electricity.

The electricity one never made any sense to me financially. Maybe things have changed now with technology advances, etc. The other one for hot water, house heating, etc. was always a great proposition.

I'd like to learn more, and get up to the current state-of-the-art.


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## FrugalRefiner

Research135 said:


> I understand there are two types of solar systems: One for water heating, etc. And the other one for electricity.


Research, I agree. I'm an old dog who loved reading Popular Science, Popular Mechanix, and similar material as a kid. The first solar systems I learned about were those that simply circulated water to a set of dark panels on the roof, where the water was warmed before returning to storage barrels in the house. They gave off their heat to the home. I'm sure something more sophisticated is possible now.

Dave


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## 4metals

I agree with Research, for hot water and space heating I'm a big fan of solar. I have had passive solar attached greenhouses heat my entire house when I lived on Long Island and all of my how water was from active solar hot water panels on the roof, and that was installed 30 years ago! 

I don't really buy into the ROI figures for solar electricity. I am not a big fan of relying on government rebates to make an appealing ROI for a solar system, they have a way of changing the rules once you're in the game. If they want to be "more green" why don't they eliminate (or allow, and tax accordingly) phantom loads? In the US we waste more power on phantom loads than we could ever hope to generate with solar.


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## Palladium

I have no less than 5 major hydroelectric dams within 100 miles of me. We had several coal fired plants but they have managed to shut them down. Thank god I live in the land of water and mountains. I think the last time I checked it was like 8-10 a kwh. Theirs plenty of room down south when youall get ready. Another funny note. In the summer months I'm a commercial crawfisher man. I bull shit you not. My daddy was a commercial fisherman and I grew up in it. Plenty of water around here. That's where I have been mostly the last couple of months. The season is wrapping up now. If you look you can find me out in digital land.


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## Research135

4metals said:


> I agree with Research, for hot water and space heating I'm a big fan of solar. I have had passive solar attached greenhouses heat my entire house when I lived on Long Island and all of my *HOT* water was from active solar hot water panels on the roof, and that was installed 30 years ago! .


 Do tell more!.

I once got an invitation from an engineer in Brazil (I could not attend), that was heating (and cooling!!??) his whole house with boiling water obtained from solar panels. He said he wanted to put in a cold-hot-water-freon-loop to a battery of Banki turbines (he had a small creek run through his property), to generate electricity and freeze foods, etc. 

His main holdup, he said, was storage of so much solar energy, and electricity generated (from solar and hydraulic) thereof. He couldn't sell it, he couldn't store it, but he could generate it!.

p.s.: small typo...hehe


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## etack

Kurt

you are taking carbon manufacturing carbon cost and comparing it to carbon emissions carbon cost. If you are going to compare manufacturing cost for solar panels than you need to compare it to the building of the power grid or at least a coal fired plant. I think solar will win that. Also The comparison is not what it took in carbon to build but after it's built what is generated. Solar wins again. In your comparison you also didn't account for the fact of all the carbon cost that the administration and maintenance departments.

So the real comparison should be what is the cost in carbon per KWh for the manufacturing solar system V power grid.
What is the carbon cost per KWh for administration and maintaining a solar system V. Power grid.
Then the other question is what is the carbon cost for the KWh produced by the systems.

You have too much Koch brothers cross contaminated info in your comparison.

At my house we only pay $0.065 KWh and solar/make financial sense after the Tax incentives


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## Research135

The more I read the posts in this forum, the more I want to shoot deer, gut them and set them to ripe before I eat them. 

I guess my passion for precious metals processing, and answering questions is spent.

No mas.


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## Palladium

The question on crawfish Jim is not about the method to catch them like someone mentioned you can find video's on youtube about that part. The other part you have to worry about is the laws that govern it. Yep!!! Theirs laws! In al we have virtually 0 laws on the harvesting of crawfish. The problem with Ga is they have several laws about using them as bait and harvesting them. Crayfish are like roaches and will breed and eat like them to. You can't over fish them! They can decimate a fish population because of their invasive nature and destroy an eco system. So if you catch one right on the water and put it on a hook there then your good to go, but if you had several in a bucket and the game warden walks up on you chances are you just got a $250 ticket. The law says you can't introduce a crayfish into a body of water other than it original range or habitat. The game warden is going to state he doesn't know where they came from and you can't prove it because all you have is crawfish in a bucket and your word as to where they came from. Might happen, might not happen, but i've seen it happen before. I have to hold a commercial fishing license as well as and a retail and a wholesale fresh water fish dealers license to do what i do. You think the epa is bad try dealing with the department of conservation and natural resources. My traps measure 16 round by 24 inches long and are run out on what i call a ground line ( trot line for some ) that is either 500 or 1,000 ft long and have 25-50 traps per line. On a slow day i can catch 500 lbs and on a real good day 1,000 to 1,500 easy. Bait them with fresh whole fish. In my business it is the perfect fit.

I catch catfish on trot lines or jugs with crawfish and then i use the catfish to bait the traps and it goes around and around perpetually. I even re bait the traps with the crawfish dead kill from the losses. I grew up on the Tenn river doing all kinds of commercial fishing as a kid. Sad part is their is only a couple of people in this area that even attempt to do this lost art. Yes, it is becoming a lost art in these parts. How many kids do you hear say " When i grow up i want to be a commercial fisherman? " There's nothing easy about it and it's dam hard work to make your money some days, but at the end of the day its wholesome and satisfying. I'm only doing it now to make a little cash and most importantly to teach my kids about it! Hard work! Honest money! My daddy raised 6 kids doing it. Hell, after all you got to feed kids something! lol


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## Research135

4metals said:


> How many deer can you see in a week?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easily a dozen plus a day. The bucks have full racks already, early for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the best bait for them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think the best bait is my garden! Or plant anything from the nursery that is expensive and they'll be there. The locals who hunt the deer put out corn to feed them and a salt lick. But it all has to be removed and cleaned up before hunting season opens or you will get some hefty fines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you hunt them legally inside your property?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only in hunting season, some farmers are told that if they do substantial damage to their crops or property they can hunt them out of season but most feel they would get into big trouble so they don't bother. They don't seem to trust what the Fish and Game Commision tell them.
Click to expand...


If you kill one of these bucks, inside your property, with a long spear (rambo's knife attached to a wood pole), can you claim self-defense?. Serious question. I just want to eat free.


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## 4metals

> If you kill one of these bucks, inside your property, with a long spear (rambo's knife attached to a wood pole), can you claim self-defense?. Serious question. I just want to eat free.



Where I live is rural enough that you could use a small quiet compact version of a spear, also called a crossbow, and likely no-one would even notice. So you wouldn't have to claim self defense because you wouldn't get caught, but if you were caught, you would likely win if judged by a jury in this county!


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## kurtak

Research135 said:


> If you kill one of these bucks, inside your property, with a long spear (rambo's knife attached to a wood pole), can you claim self-defense?. Serious question. I just want to eat free.



:lol: :lol: :lol: You have been watching to much TV

Animals (people included) don't just drop over dead when you stab them with a knife - you have to penetrate a vital organ (heart/lung/liver) & then it takes time for them to bleed out before they die - meaning they are going to run off some distance before they bleed out enough to die --- it could be as little as 100 yards - IF it was a good hit to one of the vital organs AND you don't go chasing after then right away - or they could go a half mile or more --- it takes at the very least (with a really good vital hit) 15 minutes for them to bleed out (from a stab wound - like with an arrow) but better figure more like 20 - 30 minutes 

If they saw/see you when you take the shot &/or you go chasing after them right after the shot they can & will go a very long distance (more then a mile) in that 20 - 30 minutes because they are going to be "running" on adrenaline --- so you need to be hidden (sitting up in a tree or in a blind) when you take the shot - & then sit tight & quite for the next half hour after the shot (we are talking stab wound made by an arrow) so that hopefully they are not to spooked & they only run off 100 - 200 yards before stopping & finish bleeding out were they stop running

That's all IF you get a good vital hit - on the other hand if you just nick a vital &/or get a gut shot it could take hours for them to bleed out & they could go for a couple miles on a stop & go - stop & go get away - it can take a couple days to track them IF you are a really good tracker (they don't leave a good blood trail when the hit is bad) if you find them at all --- in 45 years of bow hunting I have only had 2 deer I couldn't find & only a few (6 or less) that took tracking long distance & a second day tracking

Here in Wisconsin (my area) for a $20 license you get one buck tag & one doe tag & you can buy extra doe tags for $2 each & I normally harvest 3 deer a year --- & I don't kill anything in my yard (I like having them come into the yard) I go hunting & I only bow hunt - or I "may" hunt the black powder season if I only get a couple deer during the bow season - I don't hunt the regular gun season

The ONLY way you are going to have a deer drop over dead on the spot is with a GOOD clean head shot with a high powered rifle that shatters the brain on impact - they will even run when you shot them with a high powered rifle in the heart/lung/liver vital area

I would advise against poaching a deer (no license/out of season) if you get caught it will be the most expensive meat you ever tried to put in the freezer ( I say tried because not only will it cost you a hefty fine - but they take the meat to)

If you try bow hunting - "keep the cutting edges on you broad heads razor sharp" - dull cutting edges make a pour cut which causes the blood to clot & it takes longer for them to bleed out

Kurt


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## kurtak

I should ad --- hunting deer is not easy - even with baiting them - they are a VERY weary/spooky animal & they live every moment of their life on constant alert because not only do they have man hunting them but coyotes hunting them - free roaming dogs casing them & depending on where you live even mountain lions &/or wolves hunting them --- they have VERY good ears/eyes & noses & all three of those things are working constantly to warn them of danger

There is a reason they call it hunting - & not shopping --- when you go shopping you come home with what you went for --- when you go hunting you MIGHT come home with what you went for - but don't count on it

Kurt


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## Research135

They are going to die anyway...
Bait the bucks inside the barn. Trap the barn door, and a baseball bat or silenced .22 to the head sound discrete, cheap and efficient. Walk-in fridge inside the barn. 
I always liked trapping better than hunting, chasing wounded game around. Never went hungry trapping. Rabbits, rats, deer, coyotes, raccoons, once a small bear, never a wolf. More reliable than fishing too. :lol:


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## goldenchild

kurtak said:


> I should ad --- hunting deer is not easy - even with baiting them - they are a VERY weary/spooky animal & they live every moment of their life on constant alert because not only do they have man hunting them but coyotes hunting them - free roaming dogs casing them & depending on where you live even mountain lions &/or wolves hunting them --- they have VERY good ears/eyes & noses & all three of those things are working constantly to warn them of danger
> 
> There is a reason they call it hunting - & not shopping --- when you go shopping you come home with what you went for --- when you go hunting you MIGHT come home with what you went for - but don't count on it
> 
> Kurt



It depends. Where I live there are plenty of deer that go through my back yard. We've even had black bears run through at times. The thing is there really shouldn't be as many as we have passing through where we live :lol: Anyway, they can get accustomed to humans. So much so that they become almost like pets. We've seen the same doe and her new fawns come back for about 4 years now. My girlfriend calls them "her deer". I told her not to do this but she will feed them. She's almost been able to feed them by hand but they retreat a bit when she gets within about a foot of them. Agreed that spearing them would be woefully ineffective and you'd have to track them for a mile or 2 if you were lucky enough to mortally wound them. Now if we're talking rifles you can surely drop them where they stand or up to a few feet away if hit in the right place. I knew a kid I went to college with that would take deer out with a 22LR (highly illegal). One cleanly placed shot in the ear and lights out.


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## rickbb

We have so much deer here I've actually gotten tired of eating them and stopped hunting. Farmers in the eastern part of the state can get permits to shoot them on site year round. They have become pests and cause as many serious accidents on the highway as drunk drivers do. I've killed almost as many with my pickup truck than I've shot while hunting. The herd needs a serious thinning out.


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## Palladium

rickbb said:


> We have so much deer here I've actually gotten tired of eating them and stopped hunting. Farmers in the eastern part of the state can get permits to shoot them on site year round. They have become pests and cause as many serious accidents on the highway as drunk drivers do. I've killed almost as many with my pickup truck than I've shot while hunting. The herd needs a serious thinning out.



Same here in North Alabama. Fall is coming up and its a dangerous time on country and county roads. I missed one last year by the skin of my teeth. It's just a fact of of life if you live around here. Bout like squirrels and fire ants.


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## justinhcase

rickbb said:


> We have so much deer here I've actually gotten tired of eating them and stopped hunting. Farmers in the eastern part of the state can get permits to shoot them on site year round. They have become pests and cause as many serious accidents on the highway as drunk drivers do. I've killed almost as many with my pickup truck than I've shot while hunting. The herd needs a serious thinning out.


 Tired of Venison, You lucky man.
Next you will be saying you can get to much Stilton.
I do a Venison Stroganoff that is so much better than Beef.
Brandy seared meat and wild garlic and mushrooms instead of mas farmed ingredient.
With a nice Merlot Yummy.
In my younger day's we just dug a pit roast


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## Research135

Tired of venison. That's really spoiled. 

Make burgers or something, and deep freeze them...


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## AndyWilliams

Nice place Dave!


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