# Home AP Refining System - Collaborative Project



## jhize

Hello All,

I am interested in building (with help) a complete home refinery for the AP Process. I have found equipment that handles the entire process but uses the AR method, like this one (Afftech 10000): 

[img:289:218]http://www.afftech-refiners.com/English/Refiners_files/10000%20rid.jpg[/img]

I have not been able to locate a unit for the AP process and that makes me think that there isnt one out there. I saw a post some time ago where lazersteve mentioned something about pumps and tubing....I cant find it. Anyway, it seems to me that an AP unit would be a worthwhile project, espcially considering the brainpower within this forum.

Does anyone have any interest in developing an AP Refiner? Many of the subsystems such as fume hoods are already posted here but again I did not see a complete system. Also, by developing this system collaboratively we would not need any "special and proprietary" chemicals.

The reason I am interested in a system is that I have managed to secure a source of medium and high grade boards. The quantity that I will be receiving seems to be WAY beyond the 5 gallon bucket approach.

Any help would be appreciated.


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## Scott2357

That unit looks like the ones Ralph (AflacGlobal, Palladium) used to sell. Seems like a very nice machine. Man I'd like to have one to play with/modify.  It's computer controlled, recycles chemicals and high volume too ! 8)


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## jhize

Yeah, it looks nice but uses AR process. I'm hoping that we can somewhat replicate the functionality (fumes, recycling, ph, filtering etc) only with the AP process.

I'm thinking a cabinet similiar to NOXX's with all needed piping, pumps etc. Computer controls? Well, unless we have someone on the forum with that know-how, I'm thinking knobs and valves. Computer control sure would be nice though.


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## Lou

Interestingly enough, I have that EXACT same flask that's used in that machine and I have a very nice PTFE pneumatic pump that can pump aqua regia like water. 

You say Ralph used to sell these? Is he affiliated with that company or did he start it? I didn't know he was really in the business but I honestly haven't read anywhere near all the information on this board.


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## Noxx

I have some experience with PID controllers and thermocouples, if this can help... But I'm sure other people too.


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## Scott2357

I'm sure there are others here that can help with computer control too but I know how to do those things. I've done work with several types of controls through the PC parallel port including voltage/current power supply output, temperature measurement/regulation, motor speed and solenoid actuation. It shouldn't be too hard to add things like ph measurment and flow control, etc.

I would love to do this but unfortunatly I don't have the time to develop it.  I work a full time job as a test engineer (software) and part-time as a professional photographer so my plate's full right now. My old job for 20+ years was mostly hardware electronics with some mechanical experience designing/building custom test setups for our engineering lab and manufacturing.

Maybe I could find time for a little design in about a month or so if someone else could research requirements, do the hands-on work and provide accurate feedback. I can't promise anything though since it seems the photography business is growing right now and it's my "bad economy" backup/future retirement business.


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## Scott2357

Lou,

I think Ralph was a distributor, but I'm not sure about that. If I remember correctly the mid-range unit sold for about $14k and could produce up to 4Kg of .999 every 5-7 hours.


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## jhize

OK. This is a promising start. I will start on research and requirements. I suppose I will break the requirements into units of "specialization" (CAD?, mechanical, computer control, materials etc.). Those of you that are interested, can chime in where appropriate. 

I'm quite sure we have the brainpower here, maybe with a little direction/organizing we can get it done.


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## Lou

Woah, $14,000 for _that_?

Well, people have to make money some how and they have costs too! For us to build a unit like that it would probably cost half of that, assuming we can reverse engineer it. There are ways to save a buck or two on the glass and some of the pumps.


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## jhize

This is not intended to be all-inclusive, just a bit of brainstorming. I suppose the begining is a good place to start. The system is tentatively planned to handle the entire AP process from the loading of materials to the recovery of gold powder.

*1. Raw Materials* - The requirements for the materials that this unit can handle. I am currently only interested in electronic scrap but others here will be interested in other forms of material (jewelery, nuggets? etc.)

*2. Loading* - The requirements for loading the materials. I'm hoping for a method where materials such as pins can be loaded into a section that will not allow them to fall through. Im thinking some form of compartmentalising of the materials.

*3. Capacity* - How much of the material can be processed at once? I'm hoping for a setup that can easily handle upwards of about ten pounds at once.

*4. Chemicals *- The requirements needed for the AP process. Lookng for a hands-off approach to introducing the chemicals to the materials. As in the photo from my first post, the jugs of chemicals are connected to the reactor by way of tubing. These requirements would include the Muratic/Hydrogen Peroxide solution mix, additional Hydrogen Peroxide in small increments, introduction of water for rinsing, Muratic washing, addition of Clorox for Auric Chloride, addition of SMB for precipitation. Other considerations, the ability to neutralize spent chemicals and method to measure and acheive desired PH levels.

*5. Mechanical* - The requirements needed to automate the process. This will include a mechanical motor stirrer for agitation, pumps, vacuums etc. I have also noticed that some of the AR systems actually "scrub" the fumes before releasing them through the hood, interesting.

*6. Structural* - The requirements needed to develop the unit itself. With an eye towards NOXX's cabinet (fume hood). Were looking for a design that can self-contain the components of the system. A "cabinet-style" system seems to be the best bet. The approprate materials (surfaces, apoxy, etc) would fall into this category.

*7. Computer Control* - The requirements needed to control the unit via a PC. I have to yield to others on the description here. Im not sure what the possibilities will be. However, flow control and motor controls would be in the mix.

*8. Maintenance* - The requirements needed to ensure that the unit can be easily disassembled and cleaned as needed.


Am I missing much? Add as appropriate.


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## goldsilverpro

You missed the most important item - chemical wastes. What will you do with them? You seem to be thinking big. If so, you will have enormous quantities of wastes.


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## jhize

Yeah that's a good question. How do the commercial AR systems handle the waste? I was under the impression that they are simply neutralized (ph 7). Either way, I will still need to determine the appropriate disposal method.


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## Scott2357

Wow, $6 per kg to process... sweet.  

http://www.afftech-refiners.com/English/Refiners.html


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## Anonymous

Lou said:


> Woah, $14,000 for _that_?
> 
> I know of chicken fryers that cost that much


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## jhize

I'm pretty sure the commercial AR systems reuse/recycle the solutions and that could explain the $6 per Kg efficiency. 
I'm hoping that we can get some insight from members that have used these commercial systems. A lot of questions will be answered.


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## goldsilverpro

I misunderstood. When you said AP, I just assumed electronic scrap in an automated system. With karat gold, the waste wouldn't be as bad. However, simply adjusting the pH won't work. You still have toxic heavy metal wastes. You just changed them from a liquid to a solid. Have the acid wastes hauled off. Depending on the state, this will cost between $1 and $7 per gallon.

Why are to trying to reinvent the wheel? The automated systems work beautifully with aqua regia. They all are closed systems with excellent built in fume control. You could probably run most of them in your living room. And, aqua regia will work much, much, much better than any AP process. You're a smart guy. Why waste your time, money, and effort on a losing cause?


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## Noxx

Hmmm, I taught AR was unable to dissolve 10k gold and lower due to the Silver Chloride layer forming...


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## jhize

:shock: Well, I guess because I'm not that smart at all. I have used lasersteve's AP process exclusively and I'm very comfortable with it. Plain and simple it works. I don't see how AR could work better. Although I'm sure I have a lot to learn still. 

Working from 5 gallon buckets, I was also under the impression that AP is safer in terms of fumes (I don't like the idea of toxic red vapor). Of course, in a self contained unit, that problem is eliminated. 

So to my point, If both AR and AP accomplish the same results, why isn't there an AP system? Is AR far superior to AP? How and why? Yes, I am asking for a technical answer. You may be (and probably are) correct, I just need to know specifically why. 

On another note, I'm not particularly fond of refining systems that use their own proprietary solutions. It is my position that a unit could be designed that would minimize its overall expense and dependence on a third party. It seems to me that an automated AP system would be cheaper to operate, long term. Again, I could be wrong - so could you help me (us) out with this a bit further?

Thanks again for your input, I'm looking forward to more.


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## goldsilverpro

> Hmmm, I taught AR was unable to dissolve 10k gold and lower due to the Silver Chloride layer forming...



I never had much trouble dissolving anything except green gold directly in AR. However, there was always a little bit of undissolved gold that I got next time. I didn't usually inquart, to begin with, because it was just extra work and chemicals and usually it wasn't necessary with my particular technique. I used a lot of heat and, if I had to, I would maybe once remove the AgCl crust with ammonia. I could do a batch of karat gold in an 8 hour day - from start to pure bullion. I do agree with inquarting for the amateur because it always works. If you have trouble with 10K, use nitric before the AR.

jhize,

Maybe, I'm misunderstanding everything. What do you want to dissolve with the AP machine? Karat gold? Electronics? If it's karat gold, how long does it take from start to finish? Have you ever inquarted karat gold with copper and then used AP - might be interesting? Do you want to sell this machine or just develop it? 

No offense, but, I hate refining machines. I'm too much of a hands on guy. I adapt my process, as I go along, to the slight variations in the material I'm running. That way, everything goes faster and smoother. With a machine, you're locked into one cycle. When these machines first came out, they sounded great. Every refiner bought the equipment to build their own. Most soon got rid of the machines and went back to hands-on. Machines are great to help prevent internal theft.


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## jhize

Currently, I am processing electronic scrap only. What's more, I'm fortunate enough to be dealing with fingers near exclusively. I have a supplier that ships this material to me and wants to start sending bulk weight.

I have never used anything other than AP and have never processed anything other that circuit board plating. Yeah, I'm still a novice - just lost my "newbie" title on my last post - woohoo!

I understand what you're saying about your hands-on approach. There have been times when a machine probably would have been counter-productive, especially when I processed a great deal of pins at once. However, I will be dealing with fingers only, for some time to come. Anything over two pounds of fingers presents an issue in a 5 gallon bucket because of the overlap of materials.

I have adapted my process by using rectangular totes but this requires more chemicals. I'm just looking for a happy medium.


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## goldsilverpro

I finally understand what you are doing.

Please realize that only an amateur would use the AP process on electronic materials. And, you guys are very lucky that Steve developed it for you. 

However, a professional refiner wouldn't be caught dead using it. It's too easy and cheap to burn, grind, screen, melt, sample, and ship to a copper smelter - bang, bang, bang, finished. No chemicals. No hazardous waste. No muss. No fuss. But, it's not for the small operator. It's too expensive to set up, legally. Not to mention the permits you need.


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## Noxx

goldsilverpro said:


> I never had much trouble dissolving anything except green gold directly in AR. However, there was always a little bit of undissolved gold that I got next time. I didn't usually inquart, to begin with, because it was just extra work and chemicals and usually it wasn't necessary with my particular technique. I used a lot of heat and, if I had to, I would maybe once remove the AgCl crust with ammonia. I could do a batch of karat gold in an 8 hour day - from start to pure bullion. I do agree with inquarting for the amateur because it always works. If you have trouble with 10K, use nitric before the AR.



Ya that's what I used to do too (a while back). But I had some failures for reasons I didn't know.

I'm still experimenting different approaches for karat gold (cell, inquart, plain AR, nitric, etc). I expect to get some contracts this summer for karat gold, and I want to find an efficient and cheap way to process it. I also plan to incorporate Butyl Diglyme into the process to extract gold chloride from solutions. I already have one quart and as you know, it can be reused. 

Also, how did you manage to recover the silver from karat gold when it was in Silver Chloride form ? Did you vacuum filter the gold solution, then kept the white powder for further recovery ?

Any advices on how to process karat gold commercially are welcomed 

Thanks


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## goldsilverpro

I converted the AgCl in a gas furnace at low temperature with soda ash.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=qxQwAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=4306902

Then I added the converted silver and undissolved gold to other silver and ran it through the silver cell.



> Any advices on how to process karat gold commercially are welcomed



I would follow Harold's silver inquartation method. He's given it in great detail and it works. That way, you'll get it all the first time. Also, the aqua regia won't be very contaminated and you shouldn't have many problems with gold purity. Just invest in some scrap sterling and recycle it over and over.


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## SapunovDmitry

Hey guys, can you give a link to some waste mangement details in aqua regia process?
P.S. I am visiting grandma from tomorrow and week ahead, so i wouldn't be able to post a reply.


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## jhize

OK. So in short, what you are saying is that I'm attempting to take an amatuer process high-tech. My time and money would be better used if I were to drop the AP process all together.

Ok. Live and learn, right? I'll have to read up on AR and other techniques. Could you enlighten me a bit on that burn, grind, melt etc. process you referred to?


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## goldsilverpro

This patent is also interesting.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=RFB8AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4


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## goldsilverpro

> OK. So in short, what you are saying is that I'm attempting to take an amatuer process high-tech. My time and money would be better used if I were to drop the AP process all together.
> 
> Ok. Live and learn, right? I'll have to read up on AR and other techniques. Could you enlighten me a bit on that burn, grind, melt etc. process you referred to?



If anyone wants to do electronic materials chemically, with chemicals that are available to the amateur and are reasonably safe and cheap, Steve's acid/peroxide or his acid/bleach methods are probably the best in the world. The technology for these has been around forever but, he's taken it to a very high level. My only complaint about these methods is that I don't feel that they are profitable on a large scale, when you have to consider such costs as labor, chemicals, safety, fume control, and waste considerations. I would love to be wrong about this but I would have to see the numbers. 

Aqua regia or nitric acid alone is *definitely* not the way to go on pins, fingers, boards, etc. The only exception I can think of is high grade CPU packages. On most electronic stuff, Steve's methods are far, far better than HNO3 or AR.

If you want to make money refining electronics chemically, you need to find a way to strip the gold without dissolving the base metal. For certain things like pins, the sulfuric cell works beautifully. Cyanide works the best for ordinary plating but not at all for gold brazing alloys or solder. For these, the sulfuric cell is necessary. But, for the average person, cyanide is out of the question. Iodine/KI or Br2/KBr both strip gold selectively, but they are very expensive.

The burn, grind, etc. method is not a true refining method. It concentrates the material, makes it homogeneous (so it can be sampled), and prepares it for a smelter:

(1) Everything is incinerated. 
(2) It is ball milled to grind up the ash
(3) It is screened to separate the ash (called pulp) from the metallics (wires, etc.)
(4) The metallics plus any loose pins, etc., laying around are melted and cast into bars
(5) The 2 fractions, pulps and bars, are sampled and assayed.
(6) The 2 fractions are shipped to a primary (usually) copper smelter for refining. I doubt if the smelter will even talk to you unless you have at least a ton of material.
(7) You get paid in about 3 months, for certain percentages of copper and all the precious metals. You are penalized for certain percentages of other metals. For example, a nickel content over 5%. After the smelter gets his own assays, you can get advances, but you pay interest on the money. The overall return is usually excellent.


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## Rag and Bone

GSP

Everything about the burn, grind, etc. method seems possible from the small operator perspective except the incineration. Do you know any way to incinerate safely on a small scale?


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## Noxx

You could build a waste oil burner to burn (or melt) economically many things. Waste vegetable oil is free. I'm pretty sure one of those burners could be adapted to burn electronic wastes.

Visit backyardmetalcasting.com for more informations.


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## Rag and Bone

Burning isn't the hard part, dealing with the fumes responsibly is the tricky part. 

Are there business's around that would have incineration capacity that I don't know about?


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## aflacglobal

An inside look maybe ?

Last time i talked to the doc the 10,000 series was going for about $ 36,000 retail.


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## DNIndustry

Ive got a giant Aluminum smelter out at the farm.

its probably 6ft wide by 4ft deep and 6ft tall. with 2 blowers and 3x6ft stacks. anyone ever use one?


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## Lou

Nothing that big!!! I thought I was something special with a full #20 crucible of aluminum. That's a monster that you have. Might be cheap to run if you can get it fired off of waste motor or vegetable oil.


Lou


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## aflacglobal

DNIndustry said:


> Ive got a giant Aluminum smelter out at the farm.
> 
> its probably 6ft wide by 4ft deep and 6ft tall. with 2 blowers and 3x6ft stacks. anyone ever use one?




Huuummmmm. Yep. :wink: 


You have an aluminum sweat furnace, not smelter.

Three guesses.

Sounds like a United 550-A or maybe a 466

An aluminum king or

An Aramco 1500

I started and sold a company that designed and manufactured aluminum sweat furnaces a few years back. I was looking at setting up a website to market them. I never did get the site set up, but I did do a simple experimental promo site. Let me see if it is still active. 
Well I guess not. That’s what happens when you don’t pay your hosting fees for several years I guess. It was up until last year or maybe the year before that. I have some good pics and plans on backup somewhere buried in my storage bld. I’ll see if I can find them and post some pics.
http://www.recycleinme.com/rim-mathes/home.aspx



What type of gas set up is on it ? I built them to run on heating oil, propane, and natural gas. Propane gives more bang for the buck. You have to figure how much it cost per therm ( 100,000 Btu’s ) to produce the heat needed ( 1350-1475 degs F ) You can’t use waste oil to fire them anymore. The EPA will come visit you. You can use heating oil, but not waste oil. Even then you have to have an air permit. $ 2,5000 per year here in Alabama and a 20 page application. Plus you have to run a data logger to record your afterburner temperature . The afterburner is in the stack and has to maintain 1500 degrees F and hold the air in the chamber for a Min of 1.5 sec to destroy any dioxins and furans from the main hearth chamber. Does it have a separate chamber to hold the molten aluminum separate from the main hearth or is it just one single box ?

Talk about a hot job this is one for the books. But when it’s set up and run right it can make you a small fortune. We use to pour 1,000 Lb ingots ( sows ) Each one worth $ 800-$ 1,000 depending on the make up of aluminum verses trash. The furnaces I designed and built were capable of producing about 6-8,000 lbs/day , depending upon the feedstock. I also made smaller models. The smaller ones went from $ 12,000 for what I call a weenie roaster all the way up to big bertha. The big boys took me about 6 weeks to fab and build and sold for $ 128,000. My cost to fab and ship was about $ 80-90,000 depending on what state I had to submit my plans to the EPA for. God, Did I love to hate those guys. Then another $ 8,000 for on site set up and 1 week training. The shipping was on the customer. The machine had to be shipped in 3 pieces and weighted about 85-90,000 lbs. I would go through a 40,000 lb truck load of scrap in about 3 days time. Magnesium was a killer to the price of the product. It difficult to separate Mag from alum because of the similarities of the characteristics of the metals. The feed stock was made up of heavy gauge alum scrap not thin materials like sheet or foil those are done in a Reverbatory furnace because they will vaporize and go up the stack if not processed right. The best feedstock was alum transmissions, alternators, lawnmower engines, boat motors, ect. My cost then was 15-20 cents a pound, Then you have about 5 cents a pound for fuel. Another 10-15 cents labor and equipment cost ( forklifts, Ect ) and about 1-2 cent/lb trucking cost.

So that’s 40-45 cents/Lb to buy, ship, and process the material and it sold for 80 cents to $ 1 lb. That’s somewhere around 45 cents/Lb profit @ 22,000lbs ( 40,000 Lbs minus melt lose such as steel content which what steel came out of the furnace I sold for about 5-7 cents/Lb ) Mag was a 10-15 cent penalty, Ouch. The slag skimmed of the top was sold for a recovery percentage, usually I got about 60-70 percent return. Sound like refining hugh. Lol Anyway you could make from $ 8,000 – 10,000 on a truck load in 3 days. About $ 15-20,000 a week. That’s why I got that kind of money for the machine. I even had a lease back company in Atlanta that would finance them with $ 10,000 down. 

Anyway hope that helps.

Ralph


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## DNIndustry

wow... that was awesome information. I love hearing other peoples story.
Probaly took an hour to write. Thank you.

I may go an look at the bitch today. The farm is my partners previous scrap yard. His newer one is 1 mile away. So tranportation is minimal. He charges for pickups, or gets items dropped off. Also the land is zoned M3. I believe inclusive of all but nuclear waste, but their may be a problem with the height of the stack. their are 3 modular 6ft sections but only 2 are affixed to it.


The unit is propane based. The middle is the shape of a microwave and the bottom is an inverted pyramid. If facing it; to the right there is a swiveling hammer/plug for the metal to exit. There is a large catch basin that swivels. Their is also some 5ft pentagram shaped table/stand next to it. Ill take some pictures.

Think it could be modified to do anything else? If polution and the epa is te issue, I wonder if I could retrofit it to be a really big electric.


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## Scott2357

DNI,

I think a lot of us would like to see some pics of this beast


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## Palladium

I finally pulled out some old info. Hope you enjoy. 8) 8) 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16393066/Alumco-Sweat-Furnaces-Forum?secret_password=1ylorjbjrtq5nhg0ytmj


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## Palladium

Well when it got converted for online posting some of the pics got misplaced, but you will get the general overview.


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## Anonymous

Several years ago I was looking int a gold refining system like Aflac Global produces. They were made in India and somewhere I have a flier from them. I am looking for perhaps other companies which make these kind of machines and the prices of them. First I was wondering if anyone of you use a machine similar to this? Second does all of the pieces need to be ground up before the refining process or can you just put in scrap jewelry or dental gold? Does it seperate silver as well. Just doing my homework I have purchased scrap for many years but just sent to refiners. I always felt shortchanged and never got the small stones back that was in the jewelry. Also any recommendations on a refiner would be appreciated.


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## Gold

ckm8ed said:


> Several years ago I was looking int a gold refining system like Aflac Global produces. They were made in India and somewhere I have a flier from them.



They are made in Milan, Italy by Afftech.
But you don't need one of them ( Cost to much ). All you need to know is right here on this forum.

Welcome to the forum. Look in my sig line for most the info you will need.


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## Anonymous

Mr. Gold
How can I speak with you? Right now I am in Asia but will be going back to Calif. on Wed. If you can give me a tele number I would like to speak with you.
Jeff


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## Gold

Not to be snotty, but i'm out the gold business right now. I've got other adventures i'm working on at the moment. Go figure.

Tell us what your trying to do and these gentlemen here will be able to help you out.


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## Anonymous

What I am trying to find out about is a process like Aftec which someone used and can tell me about the results. Are there other like products which anyone can recommend? I would be looking for a more reasonable price for the units. If someone can give me a tele number to speak with I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you
Jeff


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