# Poormans AR with liquid nitrate



## GoldUser (May 20, 2022)

Hey,
at my location I can't get nitric acid becauce of legislation. I read a lot about alternatives here and got pointed out to do it with potassium Nitrate curing salt and Hcl.
My question now is that if I cant get potassium nitrate in a 15% conc. liquid form, wouldn't it be much easier without spieces and so on?
Also how can you dispose of the remaining potassium chloride properly?

For example: Kalisalpeter 15%ig 1000 ml Kaliumnitrat reinst | eBay
David


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## eaglekeeper (May 20, 2022)

I'm not familiar with that product, but depending on what the other ingredients are you may be able to crystalize out the nitrate. Do you know what the other ingredients are?


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## GoldUser (May 20, 2022)

eaglekeeper said:


> I'm not familiar with that product, but depending on what the other ingredients are you may be able to crystalize out the nitrate. Do you know what the other ingredients are?


How would be the best way to crystalize it out? Can't it go explosive with dry nitrate powder? I'm still researching the nitrate based refinining.


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## eaglekeeper (May 20, 2022)

Here in the U.S we have a tree stumper remover product that's nearly pure potassium nitrate in the form of a dry powder. *On it's own* it's quit stable... stable enough to sell it off the shelf to anyone that wants it.

The solubility of each ingredient will dictate the process. So If you can post the other ingredients, maybe someone with more chemistry knowledge can give advice for crystallization...if it's even possible.

On a side note... It's probably not cost effective with this product at 15%.


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## GoldUser (May 20, 2022)

_Here in the U.S we have a tree stumper remover product that's nearly pure potassium nitrate in the form of a dry powder._

What do you mean with nearly pure? Some mebers adviced me to use the meat curing salt which is also nearly pure. There just a minimal amount a spices. From my knowladge explosives are among other things nitrated carbons. I'd be scared that the spices and others could be quiet dangerous with nitrates.

For the liquid KNO3 there is just 85% deionized water. Its pharmacy quality.

_On a side note... It's probably not cost effective with this product at 15%._

Would be 150g if the water is removed. When 2 KNO3s make one HNO3 would be after losses about 50g of HNO3? Im sure those are wrong „calculations“ but rather try then not . Maby someone could tell. Enough to dissolve about an ounce of metal (when mixed 1:3 wth Hcl). More than enough for me due to the fact i only need to dissolve gold and recover with hcl/perox. For 10 bucks not bad.

I assume you should tale care of with 2 stockpots? (Chlorine based, nitrate based)

Happy Weekend everyone
David






Salpeter, Kaliumnitrat, Kalisalpeter Bengalsalpeter, KNO3 in Lebensmittelqualität, rein, ohne Rieselhilfe – Hergestellt in Deutschland. Beutel 1000g. (1 KG) : Amazon.de: Lebensmittel & Getränke


Amazon.de: Salpeter, Kaliumnitrat, Kalisalpeter Bengalsalpeter, KNO3 in Lebensmittelqualität, rein, ohne Rieselhilfe – Hergestellt in Deutschland. Beutel 1000g. (1 KG) - Jetzt bestellen! Große Auswahl & schneller Versand.



www.amazon.de


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## butcher (May 20, 2022)

Is this dietary salt a nitrite salt or nitrate salt?
The spelling of the salt can make big difference in the reactions involved, or what can be made from the salts...
Nitrites can be made into nitrates
Nitrite salts would need to be oxidized into becoming nitrate salt before making nitric acid, example with using sulfuric acid which leaves you with a byproduct of potassium sulfates in the nitric acid, the sulfuric acid H2SO4 has more free hydrogen or makes more hydronium ions H3O in solution, to make a more acid in the solution (as compared to hydrochloric acid HCl, with only one Hydrogen to add to the reaction.

If HCl is used with a nitrate salt to make a poor-mans type of aqua regia, with potassium chloride as the byproduct, with HCl there will be less production of acid or fewer hydronium ions H3O in the solution which makes the solution acidic.


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## Jimbriese (May 20, 2022)

You can look at places like farmer’s Coop or home improvement stores for potassium nitrate stump remover or a calcium nitrate fertilizer. 
Spectricide 1lb stump remover is potassium nitrate $7 at lowes
Hi-yield makes a 4 lb bag of calcium nitrate farmer coop $15


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## eaglekeeper (May 20, 2022)

Apologies, we here in the U.S sometimes take for granted the ability to get the reagents we need. We forget there are others who can't get these things. So if a 150 grams is all you need then it's absolutely worth the try. I know if I couldn't get nitrates here I would try just about anything. 

I don't have a lot of chemistry background, so I think it's wise for me to allow others with more experience to comment on a solution to your problem. 

As far as the stockpot, I use just one stockpot for everything (except solutions containing ammonia). I do have a second bucket, but it's just to drop out the copper...etc.


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## BlackLabel (May 21, 2022)

From the label, the 15% solution is KNO3, pharmacy quality.

If you dry it out, you'll get 150 grams for Euro 16.90. It won't "explode". You can dry it like table salt.

What's wrong with the powder (Euro 10.90/1 kg)?


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## efka (May 21, 2022)

Hi there, this is my first post, allthough i'm a long time reader. I'm using the product by Würzteufel, the Amazon link you posted. Works great. Just make sure you buy it directly from their website, same price, but the company keeps all the profit  A proper introduction of myself will follow when i have my first button to show 
Greetings Felix


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## BlackLabel (May 21, 2022)

Hi Felix,
Welcome to GRF!

I suggested this KNO3 powder to David (GoldUser) a few days ago. He fears trouble with any authorities in Austria. I told him, that if it's sold as a spice, it iS a spice.


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## shruli (May 21, 2022)

BlackLabel said:


> Hi Felix,
> Welcome to GRF!
> 
> I suggested this KNO3 powder to David (GoldUser) a few days ago. He fears trouble with any authorities in Austria. I told him, that if it's sold as a spice, it iS a spice.


I think it depends where you are. There is a warning on Amazon UK for the product I buy.

Legal Disclaimer
N.B. This product is an explosives precursor and is regulated as a reportable substance, we are therefore obliged to report any transaction involving this product that appears suspicious.


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## BlackLabel (May 21, 2022)

No such disclaimer in the description.
There is the warning symbol for oxidizing only.


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## shruli (May 21, 2022)

BlackLabel said:


> No such disclaimer in the description.
> There is the warning symbol for oxidizing only.


screen shot from Amazon UK


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## GoldUser (May 21, 2022)

BlackLabel said:


> Hi Felix,
> Welcome to GRF!
> 
> I suggested this KNO3 powder to David (GoldUser) a few days ago. He fears trouble with any authorities in Austria. I told him, that if it's sold as a spice, it iS a spice.


I was also scared because they of the spices in the KNO3. Doesn't this affect the AR I'm making? @efka Maybe you could tell me more about how you use this salt. It would really help me.
How to mix it with HCL properly to get a effecient
How concentrated it can get?
How much NOx gases are produced relative to real AR?

People in the reviews of the those curing salts reported that they got raided because they bought like 1kg or so (happened to a few). But for me I would just buy 200g or so. 

Comments translated:
_Have it ordered in smallest quantities and had suddenly the criminal police investigation department in the morning in front of the door, it's each person's risk!
Police was there, no recommendation to buy.
Trouble with the judiciary- because KN03, which could be clarified only after the fact, NEVER AGAIN!!!_

David


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## GoldUser (May 21, 2022)

butcher said:


> Is this dietary salt a nitrite salt or nitrate salt?
> The spelling of the salt can make big difference in the reactions involved, or what can be made from the salts...
> Nitrites can be made into nitrates
> Nitrite salts would need to be oxidized into becoming nitrate salt before making nitric acid, example with using sulfuric acid which leaves you with a byproduct of potassium sulfates in the nitric acid, the sulfuric acid H2SO4 has more free hydrogen or makes more hydronium ions H3O in solution, to make a more acid in the solution (as compared to hydrochloric acid HCl, with only one Hydrogen to add to the reaction.
> ...


Thanks butcher,
this is 99% pure Nitrate 1% spices. Doesn't has to be converted. I can't use it with H2SO4 because its also illegal here.
Do you have any recommendations on how to use this with HCL?
David


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## butcher (May 21, 2022)

If it is just potassium nitrate salt diluted in water, it would work to make an extremely dilute solution of poor-mans aqua regia, which could be concentrated slowly with heat to make a stronger solution upon concentration as water is slowly evaporated with heat, or the watered-down solution of KNO3 could be evaporated off the bulk of water before adding HCl to make the poor-mans solution.

with that said, I do not think it would be cost-wise or time-wise to use such a watered-down solution.

To me, except for maybe for working with karat gold, I could do more without the use of nitrates ( if this solution was my only source of nitrates available) in my recovery or refining operations, by using other means which does not require using nitrates as an oxidizer, using some other leach solutions for base metals like cupric chloride or ferric chloride leaching, and for example, using some other oxidizer like concentrated H2O2 or bleach to dissolve fine gold, rolled thin gold, flakes, powders, or foils or the gold alloyed down with copper or other base metals and poured into shot form before being leached... basically getting the gold fine enough to dissolve with a weaker oxidizer...




Look for a better source of nitrates, you may have to look outside your box, nitrates like sulfates, and chlorides as well as most other salts or acids ...are so common you walk over them every day, they are all extremely common and are all around us in our soil rocks and ocean, in many of the products we use.


I would consider looking for another source of nitrates to use, or I may consider making my own, nitrate crystals scraped from farm animal stalls, cinder block walls, cow barn stalls, consider using natural fertilizers, or rich black river bed soils, animal blood or blood meal, bat guano, food scraps, manure, urine ... normally nitrate beds may take about a year to get set up and started into operation, but with enriching the soils with for example some store-bought fertilizers this time frame can be shortened exponentially say down to taking only weeks to leach nitrates from rich soils.


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## BlackLabel (May 21, 2022)

Salpeter, Kaliumnitrat, Kalisalpeter Bengalsalpeter, KNO3 in Lebensmittelqualität, rein, ohne Rieselhilfe – Hergestellt in Deutschland. Beutel 1000g. (1 KG) : Amazon.de: Lebensmittel & Getränke


Amazon.de: Salpeter, Kaliumnitrat, Kalisalpeter Bengalsalpeter, KNO3 in Lebensmittelqualität, rein, ohne Rieselhilfe – Hergestellt in Deutschland. Beutel 1000g. (1 KG) - Jetzt bestellen! Große Auswahl & schneller Versand.



www.amazon.de





There is NO spice in this product, the product IS the spice!

I ordered this product also.
I had no visit or investigations from anyone.
It's legal to purchase.
It's illegal to make explosives or nitric acid from it.
If somebody asks me about my usage for KNO3, I'll tell them I mix it with HCl in order to dissolve gold foils for hobby refining.

I know a little bit of chemistry. I know how to make black powder and a lot of other "funny" stuff. As I was young, I made some really cool firework rockets (larger than normal). These rockets worked perfect, but they were very expensive. I made a lot of such "proof-of-concept-things".
If I had the intention to blow away something, I wouldn't do it with KNO3.

BTW:
Most hobby refiners are using a stuff, that could easily be used to make a much more explosive stuff (too dangerous to handle)…


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## eaglekeeper (May 21, 2022)

butcher said:


> I would consider looking for another source of nitrates to use, or I may consider making my own, nitrate crystals scraped from farm animal stalls, cinder block walls, cow barn stalls, consider using natural fertilizers, or rich black river bed soils, animal blood or blood meal, bat guano, food scraps, manure, urine ... normally nitrate beds may take about a year to get set up and started into operation, but with enriching the soils with for example some store-bought fertilizers this time frame can be shortened exponentially say down to taking only weeks to leach nitrates from rich soils.


You beat me to it.... If there are live stock farms in your area, then you have a virtually free natural resource to extract nitrates from (not the most glamorous way to obtain nitrates, but hey). I'm sure your local hardware/gardening store probably sells chicken, cow or pig manure by the 20Lbs bags. I've heard chicken manure has the highest concentration of nitrates, I don't know that for sure because I haven't had to do that.....yet. There is plenty of YouTube videos (assuming the gov. hasn't blocked that content) on how to extract the nitrates from manure.... looks fairly easy to do.


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## efka (May 21, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> I was also scared because they of the spices in the KNO3. Doesn't this affect the AR I'm making? @efka Maybe you could tell me more about how you use this salt. It would really help me.
> How to mix it with HCL properly to get a effecient
> How concentrated it can get?
> How much NOx gases are produced relative to real AR?
> ...


Hi David,
the kno3 i bought on their website is labeled as pure without any spices added. First time i bought 1kg and as more and more chemicals become forbidden in the EU, i bought another 3kg. Should last a lifetime the way i use it. No cops showed up  but this might be another reason to buy it directly from the supplier, so only one company might report you...
I can't tell you how it compares to nitric, as i myself can't get any, but i use it like you would use nitric, in small doses.
Cover your material with HCL, heat but don't boil it, add KNO3 and stir it a little.
Depending on my material, i start with a few gramms and when no more NOx fumes are produced, i add another small dose, like 2-3g, until everything has dissolved or rather no more reaction occurs.
One time i overshot quite a bit, NOx production went crazy and it boiled over. So i guess it can get pretty concentrated. Hope this helps.
Greetings Felix


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## GoldUser (May 22, 2022)

BlackLabel said:


> Hi Felix,
> Welcome to GRF!
> 
> I suggested this KNO3 powder to David (GoldUser) a few days ago. He fears trouble with any authorities in Austria. I told him, that if it's sold as a spice, it iS a spice.



I did not realize that. Now that's clear


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## GoldUser (May 23, 2022)

efka said:


> Hi David,
> the kno3 i bought on their website is labeled as pure without any spices added. First time i bought 1kg and as more and more chemicals become forbidden in the EU, i bought another 3kg. Should last a lifetime the way i use it. No cops showed up  but this might be another reason to buy it directly from the supplier, so only one company might report you...
> I can't tell you how it compares to nitric, as i myself can't get any, but i use it like you would use nitric, in small doses.
> Cover your material with HCL, heat but don't boil it, add KNO3 and stir it a little.
> ...


Thanks that helps me a lot.
What are u doing with the potassium chloride?
David


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## efka (May 24, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Thanks that helps me a lot.
> What are u doing with the potassium chloride?
> David


It goes into my ar stockpot.


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