# Further info regarding teeth & what should I do?????



## Paige (May 21, 2007)

This purchase offf of eBay was # 1101 277 44696.

The seller (with a 100% approval rating with 1001 transactions) states that they are gold and silver.

By elimination, I think they were nickel.

Whether an intentional misrepresentation or not, the description is.

For you long time eBayers, what path should I take?

Paige

I know this would be more appropriately listed elsewhere, but since my main question started here, I think this should be here as well. I paid w/ Paypal w/i a few hours, but now we have everything in solution and my word as to what happened. Please share your input.


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## goldsilverpro (May 22, 2007)

I think that Harold has more experience with dental golds than any of us and I hope he responds to your plight.

I know you're in between a rock and a hard place with this.

I've run quite a bit of dental gold but, it's all been yellow. In fact, there was always a general rule to never buy white dental gold unless you really knew what you were doing. Scott Andrews, the very knowledgeable owner of recyclebiz.com, wrote this dental gold guide on eBay.
http://reviews.ebay.com/Advice-for-Dental-Gold-Buyers_W0QQugidZ10000000002336051

I spent an hour yesterday trying to research white metals used in dental materials without much luck. I did find that the white metal could be either be white gold, nickel/chromium alloys, or cobalt/chromium alloys. The reason the white dental gold is white is due to large amounts of palladium. The nickel and cobalt alloys contain no gold and could be magnetic. I found no mention of silver ever being used.

In Hoke's, "Testing Precious Metals", she mentions that the lower grade yellow dental golds will tarnish and darken in the mouth. I noticed that, in the eBay photos, some of the yellow gold looks tarnished.

Out of the 31 crowns in the photos, 6 are yellow gold - about 20% of the crowns, by count. Weight wise, since the gold is heavier, I would guess that about 35% of the lot to be yellow gold alloys - assuming that the white materials are non-gold. The only two metals on earth with color, other than white, are gold and copper and their alloys. Copper is poisonous and I can't imagine copper alloys being used alone. However, in all the yellow dental gold alloys, there is some copper in the formulas.

Nickel solutions are usually green. The copper in the yellow gold would produce a blue color. Together, the color would be turquoise. 

All in all, you must have some gold in the solution, if everything has dissolved. There also is some platinum and palladium in all the yellow gold formulas that I could find. Have you tested the solution for gold, platinum, and palladium, using stannous chloride? Six of the crowns were yellow so, it seems to me, that there has to be some gold someplace.

I know I haven't answered your question as to what to do as to the seller. Maybe someone else can answer this question.

Never buy white dental materials unless you really, really, really know what you are doing.

Never buy any dental materials on eBay.


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## AuMINIMayhem (May 22, 2007)

Paige said:


> Whether an intentional misrepresentation or not, the description is.
> 
> For you long time eBayers, what path should I take?
> 
> Paige



quote from the ad (in case we lose the link)

"This auction is for 9 bridges containing gold and silver teeth. 6 of them have gold teeth, 2 have silver teeth, and 1 has a gold tooth encased in silver. My father-in-law was a dental assistant in the Navy during the 1940s and saved these teeth of the patients he worked on. Everything together weighs 36 grams on my postal scale. I do not know anything about gold or silver and have described them best I know how. Please see the pictures and ask any questions before bidding. They are being sold as is."

Paige, the only misrepresentation I could see you being able to clearly argue with this seller is if the weight was significantly less than the 36 grams stated. Other than that, the seller did state they do not know anything about gold, etc and they also stated to ask questions before bidding. I hate to say it, but they coverred their bases.

I personally, maybe out of just being a bit too faithful in the average person, tend to believe the seller's claims. If it was I who purchased the item, I'd have to chalk it up to a "learning experience", if it turned out to be inaccurate. 

The only other thing to keep in mind is, and I could see where this _could _happen, is the seller made an honest mistake by using the terms "gold" and "silver" as a description of their "color" and not necessarilly their composition. However, that's a stretch I admit, especially for someone who has sold over 1000 items on Ebay, they should have a fairly firm grasp on how to describe things in a non-misleading way. I know I would have listed it something like so: "This auction is for 9 bridges containing gold and silver _colored_ teeth. Please note: I'm not 100% sure of their actual composition, etc etc etc.."\

That's a good one Paige, given the seller's excellent feedback rating and the fact that the seller hasn't sold 500 sets of false teeth.. I probably wouldn't call "shenanigans" on this one.. but that's just my take. 


GSP.. I quite agree with you about buying the fillings on ebay, but also for a different reason in addition to yours.. The sellers always want to try to get market price for the gold contained in them.. :? :? :? .. everyone seems to think that gold, irrespective of it's state or karat, is worth the fair market value without even taking into consideration the processes it would take to refine it.. everyone thinks they're sitting on a "gold mine" (sorry, had to say it.. :lol: )


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## jimdoc (May 22, 2007)

Does anybody know how to test the materials with a torch?
From what I read the platinum will retain its white color, and
palladium will get a bluish tinge to it when it cools. I have a
piece of white dental material that I got for free doing a clean
out at an estate, and I heated it to a bright glow and when it cooled
it has the bluish tinge to it, so I think it has palladium in it.

Also how about checking metals with specific gravity? Anybody
have tips on that?


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## lazersteve (May 22, 2007)

jimdoc,

Specific gravity tests are not very definative with alloys. If you suspect your metal is near pure you can use a simple water displacement and an accurate scale to determine specific gravity. Match the calculated density to a known metal and you have identified the metal. Here's a very simplified outline:

1) Weigh the unknown metal to the neartest .1 or better yet .01 gram.

2) Measure out an exact amount of water into a graduated cylinder with 1 mL scale divisions

3) Place the known weight of material into the known volume of water.

4) Subtract the initial water volume in mL from the water volume in mL after adding the unknown metal.

5) Divide the unknown metals weight by the result of step 4 in mL.

6) The answer is the Specific Gravity or Density of the unknown.

I.E.:

1) An unknown sample of suspected pure silvery metal weighs 44.0 grams.

2) Add 50.0 mL of H2O to the Graduated cylinder

3) Place the unknown metal in the cylinder and the level rises to 55 mL

4) The volume of the unknown metal is 55 - 50 = 5 mL

5) The density of the unknown metal is 44 gm / 5 mL = 8.8 gm / mL = 8.8 g/cm3 

6) Comparing the calculated density of the unknown metal to known metal densities reveals the metal to be nickel with a density of 8.8 .

As I mentioned alloys make this more complex and less reliable. Here is a listing several metals and alloy densities:

*
Metal or alloy
g/cm3

*
aluminium - melted
2.560 - 2.640


aluminium bronze (3-10% Al)
7.700 - 8.700


aluminium foil
2.700 -2.750


antifriction metal
9.130 -10.600


beryllium
1.840


beryllium copper
8.100 - 8.250


brass - casting
 8.400 - 8.700


brass - rolled and drawn
 8.430 - 8.730


bronze - lead
 7.700 - 8.700


bronze - phosphorous
 8.780 - 8.920


bronze (8-14% Sn)
 7.400 - 8.900


cast iron
6.800 - 7.800


cobolt
 8.746


copper
8.930


delta metal
8.600


electrum
 8.400 - 8.900


gold
 19.320


iron
 7.850


lead
 11.340


light alloy based on Al
 2.560 - 2.800


light alloy based on Mg
 1.760 - 1.870


magnesium
 1.738


mercury
 13.593


molybdenum
 10.188


monel
 8.360 - 8.840


nickel
 8.800


nickel silver
 8.400 - 8.900


platinum
 21.400


plutonium
19.800


silver
 10.490


steel - rolled
7.850


steel - stainless
 7.480 - 8.000


tin
7.280


titanium
4.500


tungsten
19.600


uranium
18.900


vanadium
5.494


white metal
7.100


zinc
7.135



Steve


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## catfish (May 22, 2007)

Hi Paige:

I think you have been had. I agree with Mayhem that the seller has covered all his bases (ass) with the disclaimers. I buy a lot of gold and diamonds from private individuals and they often make mistakes on their gold. They swear that they have real gold or diamonds and after I test each of them and explain that they don’t, and then they get upset. 

This seller has a good track record on sales, 1000+, but I sure have some suspicions about the way it was listed. I spent a few years in the US Navy in the late fifties and early sixties and they did not use gold or silver in any dental work, for I have a mouth full of it, and I don’t set any metal detectors off at the airport.

If it was me, I would send him a nice email and request my money back, and if he refuses then threaten to file a complaint with eBay and papal. I had to do that to one seller who said that his gold pins had 3% gold. They did not, only about .25%. I called his hand and we went around for a while then I turned in a complaint to eBay and papal, and he refunded me back my money. 

I learned that never to buy without asking them just how much gold they think the item has and I expect that much or we will do battle. It’s a cruel old world.

Lots of luck.

Catfish


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## mike.fortin (May 22, 2007)

Catfish--did you send back the rest of the pins after testing them and only ask for the money difference between the .25% you got and the 3% he claimed? Does paypal or ebay make a condition of receiving a refund the return of the item in original or at least reasonable condition? I've always wanted to ask someone who has bought gold scrap off of ebay that question. I'm with mini dude. I think the seller was honest and doing the best they could in their description. Some things have the ring of truth and some are just scams. I think I heard the ring of truth in that one. Good Luck. Let us know how it turns out buddy. Mike.


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## goldsilverpro (May 22, 2007)

I agree. I don't think the guy was trying to scam anyone. I think he was ignorant of this material and really thought it was gold and silver.


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## jimdoc (May 22, 2007)

Steve,
Thanks for the info. I tried it a different way and came up with some figures that didn't seem right. This is the formula I used;
1-Weigh object = Wa
2-Weigh Object in Water = Ww
3-Find the difference betweenWa+Ww and call that D
4-The specific gravity will be Wa divided by D

I came up with the following results;
-Plat/10%Irid ring=18.66
-Ultrium ring(non prec. junk)=6.51
-Palladium+ ring = 7.45
The Ultrium ring feels really lite, and the Palladium+ ring has more
heft to it, and that 7.45 doesn't seem right at all.
And the Plat/10% Irid ring SG should be higher also.
I will try the way you posted and let you know how I make out.
I know alloys screw up the whole process, I was just trying to see
if I could make a list of known items and alloys and metals for help
in testing unmarked and unknown items.
Thanks again. Jim


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## jimdoc (May 22, 2007)

Paige,
I agree with everybody about the guy covering himself in the auctions wording, but that is alot of money to learn a lesson. I would at least try to get your money back if I were you. Also I guess I don't have to say you shouldn't "destroy" the item before you are sure you don't have to send it back. But some people will surprise you with their honesty, he didn't keep his feedback at 100% by accident. If I make a mistake with any of my dealings on Ebay or elsewhere I make good on them, and expect the same. Maybe he will at least refund you something.
Jim


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## catfish (May 22, 2007)

Mike:

I offered to return the remainder of the pins, but insisted that he pay for the postage. He elected to just cut his losses and run. He just refunded my paypal account for the cost of the Pins, like 50 or 60 bucks. I with drew my complaint and gave him a postive rating and he gave me one too.

I still buy from the same guy to day, but he doesn't list that the pins have 3% gold. In fact I have never seen any pins that had 3% gold content. It was too good to be tue.

Catfish


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## goldsilverpro (May 22, 2007)

JimDoc,

You've got the formula wrong. Instead of the denominator being Wa + Ww, it is Wa - Ww.

The whole formula:

Density = Wa/(Wa - Ww)


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## jimdoc (May 22, 2007)

GSP,
Thanks. Actually line 3 says this;
3-Find the difference betweenWa+Ww and call that D 
That is Wa-Ww = the difference. 
I just kind of stated it so it looks wrong, am I right?

Example; Plat/10%Irid ring I got 5.6Wa and 5.3Ww and got a difference
of .3 as the difference. I then divide Wa 5.6 by D .3 and got 18.666.
I think it should be over 21.37 that would be Plat. since Irid is 22.50
Kitco list Plat/10% Irid at 21.54 why did I come up with 18.666?


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

By your numbers, your scale only has a .1 gram sensitivity. Thats not enough unless you are weighing much larger pieces. For example, the 5.6 reading could actually be 5.57 and the 5.3 might be actually 5.31. That would give a SG of 21.42. The reading doesn't have to be much off to give you screwy numbers. 

One of the best cheap scales for doing this is either the Ohaus Cent a Gram or the Dial a Gram. They even have a built in SG platform. They both have a .01 gram sensitivity.

Are you using a triple beam?


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## jimdoc (May 23, 2007)

I used a Cent a gram scale, and I actually have a Dial a gram scale also.
I will have to do it more carefully and see how it comes out, and do it down to .01
Does Steve's formula look right also?
Thanks. Jim


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

Sure. Steve's method is right on. The only problem is when you are weighing and measuring smaller amounts. You also have to read accurately between the marks. Also, the 100 mL graduated cylinders have a possible error of 1%.

In the method you're using, watch for these things:

1) Use the very finest thread you can find to hang the object.
2) Don't let the piece touch the sides of the container.
3) Use distilled water that has adjusted to room temp.
4) If there are bubbles on the object, gently tap it with a rod to get rid of them.
5) If the bubbles persist, put one tiny drop of soap in the water.
6) Cavities containing air bubbles cause a problem.
7) Weigh it very accurately


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## jimdoc (May 23, 2007)

GSP,
Thanks I will try it again tomorrow.
I used tap water didn't really check for bubbles, although I
don't think there was any. And I probably wasn't that accurate as 
I was unaware that it was that important to just see if the rings were
in the ballpark of where I thought they should be. 
The Palladium+ results shocked me at 7.45 since palladium is 12.16 and silver is 10.45, I was figuring it should be around 11 depending on the alloy. I have a few others marked Palladium/Plus I still have to knock the stones out of before I test them, the one I tested was marked Palladium+
and I didn't like the way the mark looked although it felt like the others, so that is why I tested that one first.
I have some other metals I will try also just to get the practice
and get it right. 
What do you think about flame test or torch for testing unknown metals?
Do you think that would have helped Paige with the dental gold?


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

These flame tests are a term that is casually tossed around but they are more difficult than meets the eye. They take practice. You should test objects of known composition and see what happens. Maybe take photos of the results.

The results depend on whether you're using an oxidizing or a reducing flame. 

They are most commonly used on platinum items. The platinum shouldn't discolor.

They wouldn't have helped Paige unless he had experience in testing these particular alloys. I think that determining the specific gravity would have helped more. That way, he wouldn't have damaged the parts and would have a better opportunity of getting his money back.


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