# hydrazine and sodium borohydride



## relpub3 (Aug 27, 2007)

Anyone who has experience precipitating gold from AR using hydrazine and sodium borohydride?

Are there any precautions or preparations that are needed before using these precipitants?

Alberto


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## badastro (Aug 28, 2007)

Hydrazine is extremely poisonous and can easily detonate. It is a rocket fuel. Don't use it, there are better precipitants.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 30, 2007)

I have often used mono hydrazine sulfate to drop gold, although I think it is considered a carcinogen. I used it when I had large amounts of nitric acid in the solution. When using it, the nitric doesn't have to be removed or tied up.


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## Irons (Sep 21, 2007)

Hydrazine reacts with Nitrate ion to for the explosive commercially known as Astrolite. It is more powerful than RDX and easier to set off. It's about as sensitive as PETN.

I used to work with explosives and have had professional courses on the subject, even attending a bomb scene investigation course at the FBI Academy, so I can speak with some authority on the subject.

Urea also reacts with the Nitrate ion to form Urea Nitrate, another High Explosive but not very sensitive.

People should be aware what they are playing with and take appropriate steps to make sure their waste stream is disposed of in a manner that is not hazardous to people and other living creatures and abides with local, State and Federal regulations. :idea:


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## macfixer01 (Sep 21, 2007)

Irons said:


> Hydrazine reacts with Nitrate ion to for the explosive commercially known as Astrolite. It is more powerful than RDX and easier to set off. It's about as sensitive as PETN.
> 
> I used to work with explosives and have had professional courses on the subject, even attending a bomb scene investigation course at the FBI Academy, so I can speak with some authority on the subject.
> 
> ...





I thought I recalled Astrolite being a combination of Hydrazine and Aniline? In any case things being the way they are, buying hydrazine would likely garner you unwanted interest from government types also. Even innocuous hydrogen peroxide can be used to make two common high explosives that can be used as initiators. I hadn't realized that it wasn't possible for our friends in Great Britain to get HP any more until I saw a post here that mentioned it. I saw mention here also of Iodine used for leaching gold. We used to use Iodine crystals for that old schoolboy prank of making contact explosive. Now that it's considered a drug precursor you would likely have the DEA wondering why you were purchasing it, and leading a parade of alphabet-soup aganecies to your door!

macfixer01


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## Irons (Sep 22, 2007)

The formula for Astrolite is different but I don't want to get into that.

Even Sodium Hydroxide was pulled from store shelves because it was an ingredient in making Methamphetamine. It's like outlawing spoons because drug users use them to cook their fix.

Personally, I think the big boys are just trying to keep small entrepeneurs from getting into the market.

Chemicals can be cheap if you can buy them locally in bulk but after you pay shipping and Hazmat charges, it really cuts into the bottom line.


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## macfixer01 (Sep 22, 2007)

Irons said:


> The formula for Astrolite is different but I don't want to get into that.
> 
> Even Sodium Hydroxide was pulled from store shelves because it was an ingredient in making Methamphetamine. It's like outlawing spoons because drug users use them to cook their fix.
> 
> ...




Hi Irons,
I still see lye on the hardware store shelves here, but nothing would surprise me. My other hobby is pyrotechnics, but that's on the back burner now (sorry for the pun). The environmentalists are trying to ban perchlorates so some pandering political hack from Kalifornia coerced Ebay to stop perchlorate sales. In the meantime the CPSC is trying to ban sales of all oxidizers and finely powdered metals by prosecuting the vendors. Also in recent years the shipping companies have arbitrarily refused to ship certain chemicals anymore. It's getting harder to continue all the time.

As far as chemicals for gold recovery I found a supplier about 3 hours north of me who sells for decent prices on Ebay. The shipping charges are a killer though. He allows local pickup but driving 6 hours round trip at todays gas prices might not save me much. Especially since he still charges a handling fee for orders that are picked up.

macfixer01


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## lazersteve (Sep 22, 2007)

In my mind I don't feel the supply of refining chemicals can stopped if you properly choose your reaction components and produce the required ingredients you need. Long before the government and big corporations supplied mineral acids and bases, they were being produce by chemists all over the world for centuries. This is why research and historical literature are a cornerstone of my endeavours. I always research the source, production, handling, and disposal of all chemicals I need in a desired reaction. If possible I select ingredients that are readily manufactured and safe.

A second important factor in the supply chain is recycling. If we recycle our ingredients we can close the supply chain loop and side step these government imposed sanctions. I'm putting together a simple method of recycling spent nitric acid from the gold refining by products. I'm also designing small to medium scale apparatuses that allow for continuous cycle dissolving of base metals while recovering the base metals for resale to subsidize processing costs.

Ultimately if you design your process properly you will either recycle or sell all of your by products. The small portion of the process that does not lend itself to recycling or resale will of course require proper disposal.

The powers that be can control your ability to buy, but they can't control your ability to think! :wink: 

Steve


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## Irons (Sep 22, 2007)

lazersteve said:


> In my mind I don't feel the supply of refining chemicals can stopped if you properly choose your reaction components and produce the required ingredients you need. Long before the government and big corporations supplied mineral acids and bases, they were being produce by chemists all over the world for centuries. This is why research and historical literature are a cornerstone of my endeavours. I always research the source, production, handling, and disposal of all chemicals I need in a desired reaction. If possible I select ingredients that are readily manufactured and safe.
> 
> A second important factor in the supply chain is recycling. If we recycle our ingredients we can close the supply chain loop and side step these government imposed sanctions. I'm putting together a simple method of recycling spent nitric acid from the gold refining by products. I'm also designing small to medium scale apparatuses that allow for continuous cycle dissolving of base metals while recovering the base metals for resale to subsidize processing costs.
> 
> ...



I agree. If I have to leach leaves to get Potassium Nitrate and burn wood to get Potassium Carbonate, I wll. :wink: 

It's like the old joke about making Elephant stew: First you get an Elephant.

The devil is in the details.

It's like they say at the slaughter house: We use everything but the squeal.


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## spoke27 (Nov 10, 2008)

Irons said:


> Hydrazine reacts with Nitrate ion to for the explosive commercially known as Astrolite. It is more powerful than RDX and easier to set off. It's about as sensitive as PETN.
> 
> I used to work with explosives and have had professional courses on the subject, even attending a bomb scene investigation course at the FBI Academy, so I can speak with some authority on the subject.
> 
> ...



urea and nitric Explosive what is use ? urea ?


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## butcher (Nov 11, 2008)

urea another fertilizer46-0-0, (NH2)2CO
used in refining to eliminate nitric acid from Aqua Regia for example,
also sometimes an additive in electrorefining


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## Lino1406 (Nov 14, 2008)

Beginners use hydrazine sulphate, not h. hydrate


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## Lou (Nov 14, 2008)

Lino, I guess I'm a beginner then, because I'd much rather use the sulfate and basify and do it _in situ_ than mess around with the freebase.

Much easier to mass out, much easier to handle, doesn't smell obnoxiously, not as hazardous...many reasons to use the sulfate (or hydrochloride) over the hydrate.


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## Lino1406 (Nov 15, 2008)

Anyhow, I hope people who do not
know hydrazine hydrate will take care


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## Punterr (Jul 27, 2022)

Lou said:


> Lino, I guess I'm a beginner then, because I'd much rather use the sulfate and basify and do it _in situ_ than mess around with the freebase.
> 
> Much easier to mass out, much easier to handle, doesn't smell obnoxiously, not as hazardous...many reasons to use the sulfate (or hydrochloride) over the hydrate.


@Lou,

Dear Sir, please would you be good enough to give me an idea on the H.Sulphate process for converting PM's? 

I need a base line to work from regarding molar solutions, temp's, times, PH range, other additional chemicals that may be required.

I have 100g H.Sulphate and 100g H.Hydrochloride available to me for testing.

Many thanks
RP


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