# refining mine concentrate



## RickLayton (Dec 28, 2013)

I am interested in learning how to extract material from a can of "mine concentrate" or finding the value of the contents. I have sent a sample to an assayer and know that there are several metals contained in the material but am unsure as to how to proceed.
Rick


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## nickvc (Dec 28, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Rick.
In my opinion until you know exactly what elements you are actually dealing with I'd leave well alone unless you have a good fume hood and a good degree of understanding of recovery and refining of precious metals.
You are one of many that are posting here on the forum at present regarding ores and the bad news is that many ores simply can't be mined or refined economically and or the complex nature or danger of the elements puts it beyond most members fields of knowledge. 
I think I can speak for nearly all the members when I say it's great when someone does find an ore worth the effort but sadly it's a very rare event. Many ores contain precious metals but as I need to point out they can be in very small amounts, to give that comment perspective the copper refiners are one of the largest producers of both gold and silver in the world and to them it's worth the effort as they recover from the slimes as a secondary process.
Don't sell the house over this material until you have some firm assays and a reasonable plan to mine and recover the values as selling burgers can and does pay better than many miners earn.


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## bmgold2 (Dec 28, 2013)

I am one of the members posting about trying to get gold from ore and my limited experience so far is showing that it isn't very easy to get the gold out of a rock. I am trying with ore that was bought and was guaranteed to have at least 1 oz/ton of gold in it and I am only getting a slight indication of gold from my small leaching attempts. The other metals in the ore seem to be making it difficult to get the gold into the leach solution and they will make separating the gold from the rest of the metals harder. Another thing to keep in mind is that the amount of ore required to get much gold can be a lot. My one pound of 1 oz/ton ore would be worth about 60 cents IF I could capture all of the gold.

I'm not trying to discourage you but one pan of good material from a stream or river can be more gold than can be gotten from a lot of ore. Of course, if you are dealing with free milling gold, gravity could help capture the gold and eliminate or reduce the need for leaching or smelting the ore.

Good luck whatever you do.

bmgold2


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## nickvc (Dec 28, 2013)

I know I sound very negative about ores but I'm trying to get newbies to understand that it's a very different part of recovery and refining to almost all others and with few concrete answers for every different ore that appears,its all down to exactly what is in them and the difficulty in separating the values from the rest. Read the forum we have most e scrap recoveries down pat and all metallic values and even those have many different processes depending on material makeup and availability of chemicals, we know what to expect in general and how to avoid the hazards but with ores there is no way without a full element assay to know whether you have poisonous elements already within them or whether heating or acid treatments will produce noxious or deadly fumes. If you insist on playing with ores there are countless volumes on mining and recoveries from ores but most falls outside of our particular expertise base here on the forum, it's not that we are not interested but it's just too much for most of us to be able to be spend time studying with all the other materials we have to work on and study, there is some crossover but not enough for us to be able to help fully with the necessary processes.


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## butcher (Dec 29, 2013)

I do not think many people are set up, or could process a mountain in their back yard, even if they had an idea of how to dissolve it. 
For most of us even thinking about it is just a waste of time.

Most of the gold ever mined was free gold, very little of the gold that has been mined was locked up in ore. Placer gold being the easiest, and more common, then free gold in quartz or other hard rock mining that can be separated fairly easily from the ore, mostly by mechanical means.

As a general rule;
Hard rock mining, is done on large scale with large mining equipment, company's invest Huge amounts of money into the projects, research and development, They can even have their own labs with trained chemists, this is not as simple as many would like to think, even small miners would have their ore processed or they would sell the ore, that is if they can legally mine it, and could mine and transport the ore and still make a profit.

If you cannot get the free gold out of the rock, or pan it, this is not something for the backyard miner.

Actually you may even have trouble selling a claim even if it did show good value, or trouble finding a mining company with deep enough pockets to get interested in your rock, or it may be too hard for them to get past the environmental regulations, for them to even work fairly rich ground. 

Gold fever what a terrible disease.


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## RickLayton (Dec 29, 2013)

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. Now, a further explanation about what I have. I am in possession of a three pound coffee can (with 13 lbs of concentrate) from a mine that closed many years ago. My father-in-law told me the story of its origin and then gave it to me. About twenty years ago, I had a brother-in-law that worked for a mining company in Arizona and I sent him a sample (about two tablespoons) and he sent me back a platinum nugget the size of a large pea. I lost track of it and last year my dad informed me that he sold it to a jewelry store. For twenty five years this can of concentrate has sat in my shop gathering dust so I decided to have it assayed. The first response "Throw it away, it has arsenic in it". Another assayer sent an itemized list of the contents which I now have. I know that metal content of ore is generally extremely low but I also know that this is not just ore. What I am trying to do is determine what it's value is and how to realize some of the value. I am aware that trying to do anything with it myself without proper equipment and handling would be extremely dangerous, hence, my inquiry. If there is anyone interested in further assisting me, I have a printout of the contents although I think it is skewed as the sample that I sent had pieces of rust from the can and I didn't realize they would determine content by percentage. Again, thanks for your valuable information.

Rick


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## nickvc (Dec 29, 2013)

Rick I find it very hard to believe you have platinum ore or even platinum rich ore.
To give some idea why I say this most of the worlds production comes from South Africa or it is usually recovered from nickel mines as a by product, as are most PGMs. PGMs are extremely rare on earth especially in recoverable amounts hence my doubt you actually have a rich concentrate.
It would make your claim more acceptable if you posted what assays you have actually had done don't worry about rust if it's there in reasonable amounts it will be shown.
There are two mines in Montanna which produce high grade platinum ores so if it's from there you could have a rich concentrate in fairness to you and your claims.

Edited for fairness


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## RickLayton (Dec 29, 2013)

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. I have no ax to grind and am still upset that my dad sold MY nugget without telling me. According to my father-in law (deceased) this concentrate was stockpiled at a mine and when they closed without paying their employees, a group of them stole a 50 gallon drum of this stuff, intending to sell it and recover some back-pay. Fearing that an analysis would reveal the source of the material, they never followed through and it sat for years in an abandoned building until local kids discovered it and decided it was "gold dust". They commenced scooping jars of it and carrying it in their cars where they would throw it out the windows and tell people they were sprinkling gold dust on them. My father-in law managed to save a can of it and had it for years before I happened onto the scene. On another note, about twenty years ago, a customer who happened into my shop to have some work done mentioned that he worked for an assay company and I told him the story. He asked to see the material and then responded "I can tell here is a high concentration of PGMs in this'. I had never heard the term PGM and he had to explain what it was. I asked if it had any value and he said (and I quote)(his words, not mine) "If you had a five gallon bucket of this, I would put you in touch with the Japanese government". Not having any idea how to proceed with deriving any value from it, it has sat for about 29 years on various shelves in my various shops, gathering dust until last year when I sent a sample to a couple other assayers. As I said, I have a printout of the content if you think there is value here, but I'm not prepared to just throw away the material. Again, thanks for your time.

Rick


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## nickvc (Dec 29, 2013)

Rick post the printout it tells all good or bad.


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## RickLayton (Dec 29, 2013)

I don't know how to show the actual printout but I can re-type the contents

Iron - 54.1%
Arsenic - 15.3%
Zinc - 10.0%
Lead - 6.3%
Cadmium - 5.6%
Terbium - 3.4%
Titanium - 1.3%
Actinium - .7%
Gold - .3%
Platinum - .2%
Silver - .1%

Some of these I have never heard of and don't know if they have any value. Also, as I said, there was rust from the coffee can which may have skewed the percentages a bit. Thanks. 

Rick


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## nickvc (Dec 29, 2013)

Well there's two elements there that are very dangerous Arsenic and Cadmium, Actinium is highly radioactive and considered as dangerous as Plutonium so if I were you I would consider getting rid of that stuff very carefully wearing gloves,dont inhale any dust wear a mask, and using the right people to take it away and place it somewhere safe.
As I keep saying ores are a nightmare and here's a prime example of why.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 29, 2013)

Something isn't right with that analyze, it is close to 98% pure metals and there is no oxygen, sulphur or silicates. That is something that I would expect in ore concentrates. Neither is there any copper or nickel.

Göran


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## eastky (Dec 29, 2013)

Rick I know nothing about concentrates. So you can take this post with a grade of salt. If I am heading you in the wrong direction someone will correct me. Concentrates aren't a level playing field. You may have scooped out the best 2 spoons of that ore and sent it in to be assayed. So with your numbers I did some math. 

You need to know the weight of the sample you sent in to have assayed. I don't know the weight of your sample so this is just 
a rough idea.

I used 2.5 grams as the sample weight. 

453 grams per pound divided by 2.5 gives 182 samples per pound

182 times 13 pounds gives you 2355 samples at 2.5 grams each.

gold .3% per 2.5 gram sample gives you 7.5 milligrams per sample X 2355 samples = 17.66 grams of gold

plat .2% per 2.5 gram per sample gives you 5 milligrams per sample X 2355 samples = 11.77 grams of plat

silver .1% per 2.5 grams sample gives you 2.5 milligrams per sample X 2355 samples = 5.88 grams of silver

On the assay report that you posted the numbers from it should tell you the weight of the sample assayed

This is just a sample of what your concentrates MAY contain.


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## Platdigger (Dec 29, 2013)

One gulp (and I think it was a small one) of arsenic gas nearly killed a member of this forum.
I forget now which acid it was with, but it seems like it may have been sulfuric.


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## Anonymous (Dec 29, 2013)

A question for BMgold if I may?

Firstly Hi there Sir, nice to meet you. 

Secondly what kind of rock are you processing? Quartz? Thirdly how exactly are you processing it to get to a point where you are "leeching?" Finally what leech process are you using?

Thanks Jon


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## g_axelsson (Dec 29, 2013)

Platdigger said:


> One gulp (and I think it was a small one) of arsenic gas nearly killed a member of this forum.
> I forget now which acid it was with, but it seems like it may have been sulfuric.


Are you thinking of Irons?
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=3807&hilit=arsenic&start=20#p35122

Something I think of whenever I notice some of the regulars dropping off. Does anyone know what happened to Oz?

Göran


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## bmgold2 (Dec 29, 2013)

spaceships said:


> A question for BMgold if I may?
> 
> Firstly Hi there Sir, nice to meet you.
> 
> ...


I was a former member (bmgold) but lost my password and couldn't get in touch with anyone to renew it so I signed up again as bmgold2. It had been many years since I was on this forum and am just now trying to get back into the hobby.

The rock I am using is standard gold ore that I bought from Action Mining that was guaranteed to contain at least 1 oz/ton of gold. I'm guessing it is quartz but it was mostly all powder.




The other rock I tested which showed a small indication of gold was granite I think. Here's a picture. Correct me if it isn't granite. This one really bubbled when I added the leach so I probably used up some of the nitric before even getting started actually leaching.




The leaching process I am trying is from the Gold Hunter's Test Kit. The leach is a saturated salt and nitric acid leach (I think a 7:1 mixture). I have so far tried roasting the bought ore in a wood furnace and pre-treating it by leaching with HCl to try to remove the iron. I removed the magnetics but now I wonder if I also removed some gold since I leached some black sands that were mostly magnetic and got an indication of gold but then it went away overnight (probably dropped out of solution from too much iron). I couldn't get the indicator solution from the kit to show any gold so made my own stannous chloride which wasn't affected by the iron in my solution. I am probably just not getting enough gold into the leach to show up with the kit's indicator.

My tests were all very small so far like less than 10 mL each. Here's a picture of the test kit I have been using.




bmgold2


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## eastky (Dec 29, 2013)

g_axelsson I read that thread you linked. That's an eye opener. Just going by the numbers Rick posted and using 2.5 grams per sample there is about 2 pounds of arsenic in that 13 pound can of concentrates.


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## RickLayton (Dec 29, 2013)

g_axelsson said:



> Something isn't right with that analyze, it is close to 98% pure metals and there is no oxygen, sulphur or silicates. That is something that I would expect in ore concentrates. Neither is there any copper or nickel.
> 
> Göran


I've pretty much told you everything I know about this stuff. Also, the report says that the amount assayed was 9 DWT. Don't know if that changes anything. It's been sitting around for decades in this three pound coffee can. Aren't these toxic ingredients also contained normally in ores? Is the danger that they are so concentrated? If you had this material, what would you do with it?


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## eastky (Dec 29, 2013)

Rick the assay was 9dwt that equals roughly 14 grams of ore. The numbers don't change much going by the figures I posted above.
The figures posted in my other post is what you MIGHT recover from it. 

The problem with that ore is its concentrated and you aren't equipped to handle recovering the precious metals from it. Its not something I would want around.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 29, 2013)

I think I would ask the assayer for an explanation of the results. What type of analyze was used to get those results. What is the limitations? Which substances or elements they can't see.

Göran


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## nickvc (Dec 30, 2013)

g_axelsson said:


> I think I would ask the assayer for an explanation of the results. What type of analyze was used to get those results. What is the limitations? Which substances or elements they can't see.
> 
> Göran




Goran as a subject of interest more details might be good but what has already been disclosed makes this material extremely dangerous for any but real experts and the inclusion of Actinium in it makes it possibly deadly to have around, have you looked up this element?

On a better note Irons is fine but very busy.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 30, 2013)

nickvc said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > I think I would ask the assayer for an explanation of the results. What type of analyze was used to get those results. What is the limitations? Which substances or elements they can't see.
> ...


Actinium... didn't think of that. It is even stranger than everything else. The most stable isotope of actinium has a half time of 27 years, if it's been sitting for 25 years half of the original actinium is gone and should have been replaced with uranium which is absent in the analyse. Actinium is mined as a byproduct from uranium ore. One ton of uranium ore contains 0.2 mg of actinium. The sample we are talking about now is claimed (by the assayer) to contain 0.7% ... 1.4% 25 years ago. 13 pounds is approximately 6 kg so 1.4% is 6000*0.014 = 84 gram = 84000 mg. It's the concentrate from 42000 tons of uranium ore! :shock: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actinium

Terbium at 3.4% is also a problem. It is found as a byproduct from yttrium mining, with that much terbium the rest of the ore should have been yttrium but that is also absent in the assay. Yttrium and terbium isn't easily separated so it puts up more questions about the assay.

I would say that something is really wrong in this assay. If you paid for the assay I would demand my money back. If the assayer can make an error of 3% on some elements, why would we believe the results for the precious metals that are 10 times smaller than some provable errors in the assay.

Was it done with XRF maybe?

But I agree, the amount of arsenic in the analyze classifies this material as something only an expert with proper equipment should touch. It can be lethal to experiment with.

Göran


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## Anonymous (Dec 30, 2013)

The presence of 0.7% Actinium should alone suggest that this is in fact radioactive product that requires special treatment facilities.

I would hazard (no pun intended) that it's therefore more expensive to reclaim the values from this "ore" than would be financially rewarding. I wouldn't be wasting either my time or my health, or that of my family by going anywhere near this crap.

Get your money back. Heck I bet you wouldn't even be allowed to dump it in a normal manner!

Jon


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## nickvc (Dec 30, 2013)

I think you guys are getting my message I just hope that future new members digging up ores take heed, even high grade ores are complex by nature and contain many dangerous and potentially lethal elements , they should all be treated as such until positive proof is available to the contrary :evil:


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## Anonymous (Dec 30, 2013)

I think the basic thing that people need to look at here is this. Why on earth would they sell this stuff in the first place for "less than it's worth?"

Think eBay- if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck then the chances are that it is in fact a duck....


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## nickvc (Dec 30, 2013)

spaceships said:


> I think the basic thing that people need to look at here is this. Why on earth would they sell this stuff in the first place for "less than it's worth?"
> 
> Think eBay- if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck then the chances are that it is in fact a duck....



Jon this material was given to Rick,the OP, from an unknown source by a relative but it's still nasty stuff that I wouldnt want anywhere near me or mine.
I agree about anything sold on eBay, most precious metal bearing scrap fetches more than any values that can be recovered usually.


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## Anonymous (Dec 30, 2013)

Ahh sorry Nick I was getting mixed up between Rock's query and BM's query on the same thread. 

The same logic does apply though, it's radioactive toxic waste on Rick's sample. It should be dealt with in a military grade waste facility.

Edit: A rusty coffee jar containing this sends shivers down my spine.


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## nickvc (Dec 30, 2013)

The same logic does apply though, it's radioactive toxic waste on Rick's sample. It should be dealt with in a military grade waste facility.

Edit: A rusty coffee jar containing this sends shivers down my spine.[/quote]

You and me both, let's just hope it is rust and nothing worse!


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## bmgold2 (Dec 30, 2013)

spaceships said:


> I think the basic thing that people need to look at here is this. Why on earth would they sell this stuff in the first place for "less than it's worth?"
> 
> Think eBay- if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck then the chances are that it is in fact a duck....



The ore I bought was NOT sold for "less than it's worth". I paid $7 plus over $10 shipping for a pound of ore that is supposed to have an ounce per ton. At $1200 an ounce, my pound of ore is only worth 60 cents. They made a lot more than the actual worth on the ore. Also, it was sold by Action Mining which also sells assaying and leaching equipment so this was basically sold for testing purposes.

I was here on the forum (under bmgold) when Irons posted about the arsenic. I may just stick with gold prospecting and forget about the leaching of ore. 

bmgold2


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## nickvc (Dec 30, 2013)

bmgold2 said:


> spaceships said:
> 
> 
> > I think the basic thing that people need to look at here is this. Why on earth would they sell this stuff in the first place for "less than it's worth?"
> ...




Personally I wholeheartedly agree with your final sentence.


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