# auto catalyst refining



## iis (Mar 7, 2009)

Thank you Steven 
First success 
Have some Rhodium is well only don’t know how to convert to metal state from the grey powder


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## tamerakshar (Mar 7, 2009)

Platinum.


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## lazersteve (Mar 7, 2009)

Great Job IIS!

I take it the DVD helped you out?

The swab in the photo looks to be strongly Platinum, but the slight red color may be a possible Rhodium indication also. You should test a sample of the liquid as per my Rhodium Testing process here:

Rhodium Test

It's best if you recover the Palladium and Platinum first, but the test will work either way, it's just easier to see the rose color when the Pd and Pt levels are minimal.

Your Rhodium powder may be contaminated with Cab-O-Sil if you used fine powdered zinc (200-325 mesh) or Ebay zinc powder. It's a silicone dioxide additive that is put in the zinc powder for safety during shipping.

I am trying to get enough zinc turnings together to begin selling them on my website. The turnings work great and it takes a lot less of them than the fine powdered zinc.

Have you tried incineration or melting yet?

Steve


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## iis (Mar 8, 2009)

Hi Steven
Bay your info picture 060320092094.jpg I stated Palladium must to be Rhodium it newer bin shoving Palladium on the test I guest so it must to be after when I precipitated Platinum. I will trying incinerating and melting I done before with Palladium will post picture


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## lazersteve (Mar 8, 2009)

IIS said:


> Bay your info picture 060320092094.jpg



I don't understand what you mean by this?

Steve


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## Platdigger (Mar 8, 2009)

I believe he is refering to the pic with the dark brown mud in the bottom of a container titled palladium.
As for the rest of what he is saying..................?...................

oh, he thinks it must be rhodium, because it does not test positive for palladium.
Right IIS?
Randy


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## iis (Mar 8, 2009)

Hi
Yes sorry for my English.
It must be rhodium, because it does not test positive for palladium yes it what I wanted to say sorry
Thanks


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## lazersteve (Mar 8, 2009)

The test swab looks very much like positive platinum. I've seen platinum powder precipitate as this brick red color when the nitric acid was not fully removed from the AR solution. I've also seen it when Iridium is present (cats should not have this however). The only reason I suspected Rhodium was the red tint the test swab appears to have in addition to the orange color.

Rhodium is the undissolved light gray powder left after the mixed PGM powder is dissolved in AR. Some of the Rhodium powder will follow the Platinum in AR also.

A little Rhodium ammonium chloride will precipitate with the Platinum ammonium chloride, but it is redissolved when the powder is washed with the dilute ammonium chloride rinse. This typically gives the Platinum salt a greenish hue.

Steve


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## iis (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi
Just melt some platinum and palladium,
Platinum luck weary nice shiny silver colour
Thank you Steve for DVD


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## EDI Refining (Mar 11, 2009)

How many converters were used? 8-10?


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## jimdoc (Mar 11, 2009)

IIS,
Awesome job, thanks for sharing your results. I plan on getting
started soon when the weather breaks here and will show pictures
when I get my results. Did you use a hydrogen torch to melt it?
That may delay my melting, untill I get a hydrogen torch.
Jim


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## lazersteve (Mar 11, 2009)

IIs,

Did you prove the buttons by hammering flat and looking for cracks around the edges? 

The buttons look good, but there may be room to improve the purity if you redissolve and precipitate again. Repeating the process with AR may improve the quality and look of the buttons.

When proving and sweating the buttons read Hokes descriptions to identify problem areas. This information is covered in good detail in Appendix Chapter A starting on page 293.


All in all very nice work!!

Steve


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## iis (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi
I am not shoo I will say 4.5 cats I don only ones them, Steve recommended 3 times to pot in solution.


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## iis (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi Jim
I use normal oxygen acetylene


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## iis (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi Steve 
Not yet but it luck to nice to co overeat with a hammer  
Thanks Steve I will do, but it shims to not all precipitated from solution I have to ad zinc again and get rest in black powder because solution been going wary thick like a syrup


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## loco (Mar 11, 2009)

does the normal torch work compareable to the hydrogen torch? I know I was just looking on ebay and some hho generator bench torches claim just over 5,000F. 

iis, just out of couriousity roughly how much in materials (labware, torch, filters, etc..) do you think you have vested in this project? 

I am looking forward to ordering steve's dvd but am also hopeing to get a jump on rounding up the materials. anyone have an equipment list for this project they wouldn't mind emailing me? email addy is [email protected]

thanks
- Rich


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## Harold_V (Mar 12, 2009)

loco said:


> does the normal torch work compareable to the hydrogen torch? I know I was just looking on ebay and some hho generator bench torches claim just over 5,000F.


Oxy/acetylene is reputed to produce a flame in excess of 6,000°F, but it can also produces carbon, which can lead to complications when melting platinum. Carbides can form. The torch of choice for platinum is hydrogen/oxygen as a result. 

Harold


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## loco (Mar 12, 2009)

ok so can anyone tell me if the hho generator style torches will work fine? or where is a good place to try and find a hydrogen/oxygen torch at a decent price? pretty sure I can't run down to home depot and buy one. thanks.

- Rich


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## lazersteve (Mar 12, 2009)

Rich,

I bought my hydrogen tank and regulator at AirGas. Had to place the order a week in advance and it ran around $250 for everything. There is a special fitting for the hydrogen tank that had to be purchased in this price. The guy at AirGas handled all the part numbers and was very helpful. I took some gold and explained that I wanted the hydrogen for melting platinum. The deal went very smoothly.

Don't use the same hoses as your act/oxy rig.

Also be sure your goggles are up to snuff to for the hydrogen torch intensity.

I have no experience with HHO torch, so I can not intelligently advise you on that subject.

Steve


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## loco (Mar 12, 2009)

what is AirGas? is it like a welding/torch supply house? 

- Rich


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## lazersteve (Mar 12, 2009)

Yes.

We have two major welders supplies here:

AirGas and Wesco

AirGas is the only one that could order the short hydrogen cylinder.

Steve


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## loco (Mar 14, 2009)

lazersteve, thanks for the the idea of going to AirGas. I googled them and there are 3 within 25 miles of the house. For my test run I may try and run oxy/acetylene and see how it goes and then if all goes well go to a hydrogen system. Also talking to a family friend that is the big welder repair man in the area he also said there are some propane type gases that should work but he'd need more info on exactly what we were looking for and what we are trying to avoid. I'm sure he was thinking more from a cost and safety point of view (thinking of hydrogen being almost almost invisible to the naked eye).

by the way steve I understand there is ways to color the flame to make it more visible. how is that done? did you bother doing it?

what do you guys/gals think of the other gases idea? good? bad? why? what is exactly is the reason we are shying away from oxy/ace? and what makes hydrogen a better option?

thanks
- Rich


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## loco (Mar 14, 2009)

and I know it was said not to use the same hoses for the torch as a oxy/ace setup but what about for the actual torch itself? does that matter?


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## Harold_V (Mar 14, 2009)

loco said:


> what do you guys/gals think of the other gases idea? good? bad? why? what is exactly is the reason we are shying away from oxy/ace? and what makes hydrogen a better option?


Consider using natural gas as the fuel, along with oxygen. It will serve you perfectly well, and you don't run out of fuel in the middle of a project. Of course, you must still provide oxygen, where you face the same problem, but you cut in half the chance it will happen. I had two oxygen cylinders to avoid the problem of running out. 

When you use acetylene, which has a lot of carbon in its makeup, you run the risk of liberating carbon that is not bound to another gas (soot). In melting platinum, the carbon can form compounds known as carbides, making the platinum hard and brittle. If you understand how to set a torch so you are using an oxidizing flame instead of a reducing flame, that may not be an issue. 

A smoky torch is best not applied to platinum to insure you don't form carbides, but then a smoky torch would lack the necessary heat. The problem comes from one that is only slightly out of balance, yielding a small amount of free carbon. 

Harold


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## Irons (Mar 14, 2009)

If you set the flame on your torch to be oxidizing, it may work ok, since Platinum won't oxidize.

Oxy-hydrogen or as Harold recommended, Natural Gas.

Even with natural Gas, if you use a reducing flame, you can still have problems because Carbon Monoxide can react with Platinum Group metals in the same way that Nickel does, to form Carbonyls.
A reducing flame probably won't melt it anyway, so the argument could be that it isn't an issue.

http://www.esabna.com/euweb/oxy_handbook/589oxy4_1.htm


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## Lou (Mar 15, 2009)

The chief issue when melting PGMs is that you have a reducing flame when you heat the sponge. Then you risk forming carbides and/or carbonyls.

Oxy methane and oxy propane are just fine for melting platinum and palladium. However, if you are heating any thin sheet or making anything that is to be fabricated and not remelted--it is important to use oxygen and hydrogen.


Lou


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