# refining gold with a propane forge



## cjeh (Jun 7, 2016)

I have gathered a couple of pounds of gold and black sand. I have used a magnet to remove the iron. I have set up a forge with refractory brick. purchased graphite crucibles. Used Griffith borax and mixed with dirty gold. Fired the forge for 10 minutes and all i got was black glass. Can anyone give a new be some direction?
Thank you very much


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## justinhcase (Jun 8, 2016)

A forge will not get any where near to the running temperature you need.
You will have to build your self a "Furnace" with a good blown air burner if you want to smelt any thing other than Lead.
Even with quarts wool insulation and a professional burner my furnace takes over forty minuet's to get up to temperature.
Then finally divided material being run with lot's of flux need to cook for over an hour before you can have any level of certainty all the small prills have dropped out of the flux.
I look forward to hearing how you get on with the others advice.
We do not have much in the line of Placer deposit's in the U.K. so it is always nice to hear about people who find good quantity's of wild gold.
Some details and photo's of the original stock would be good.
Have you had any samples from that deposit assayed?
Thinking of moving to Canada so I can go for a walk and try. :lol:


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## cjeh (Jun 8, 2016)

Justin; thank you for your help. It means a lot to me. I did used compressed air to inject into the refractory bricks. Someone told me to use plain borax not the griffiths kind. Do you agree? I will build a pipe air blown burner. My first graphite crucible was almost gone after 3 attempts. It was so bright and white in there that i had to wear shades to see it and the liquid. Should i use some other type of crucible? Also is it possible to salvage the gold from the black glass of my first 3 attempts? No samples from that deposit have been assayed by myself but it has been assayed by some professionals. It is rich in gold flower. I will try to send you some pictures. Need to find out how. 
If you move to Canada is it OK for us to be in contact? I know some great places in British Columbia. Thank you again.


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## Lou (Jun 8, 2016)

Yeah, a properly built forge will get way TOO hot.

That's what you did to your graphite. Done burned it up.

Also, no carbonaceous stuff like graphite or SiC for irony things. Think alumina or silica, or better, chromia.

If it's super rich, why don't you just give it all a good leach with sulfuric, decant, and leach it with aqua regia?


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## cjeh (Jun 8, 2016)

Lou; thanks for your input, very much appreciated. Got it , too hot !! I will get alumina crucibles. I have a kiln that is programmable and gather it is probably best to use that. I don't like chemicals , not into chemistry. perhaps later. Is it possible to recover the gold from my failures? All is a heap of black glass. also can you tell me about your procedure, flux, temperature, time, etc.
Thanks again


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## justinhcase (Jun 9, 2016)

My forge can not melt any thing but low melting point alloys , it is a type of hearth I used for heating metals. It is run on charcoal and can get Iron to the sticky stage of being white hot, but not fluid. It can technically get up to 1200c but that is for metal in direct contact with the coal's during combustion when covered, I was never able to really melt my silver until I built a furnace, It just kind of congealed on the floor of the crucible as it is just too inefficient.
My furnace takes thing's up to 1250c (or thereabout's or above) and holds quite nicely at that temperature for hours.
Sorry I did not pick up on you using a pure carbon Crucible. I use a lot of carbon and fire clay crucibles that seem to hold up like the Salamander's. They are the cheapest kind of crucible short of banging them out your self(Which I have and they still work after years of use).But most of my furnace work now involves very finely divided particles in waste which need a long loiter time to recover properly.
I had never heard of any one trying to use a carbon crucible in an open flame environment before only in electric furnaces. With enough of them you would not need any fuel just light and blow air.
If you post more details such as the results of local assays and the size of particle I am sure you will get a lot of suggestions. 
It may even take you running several unsuccessful test's before you find a process that works for you and what you have available.
But as long as you never throw any thing away the value will still be there.
Slag can be a pain to process in it's self and I have seen several commercial refiners who send there own out instead of processing it for them self's.


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## cjeh (Jun 9, 2016)

Thank you to all of you who have taken the time to help me. I have posted some pictures on my pinterest page under the gold pin. You are very welcome to look and post any comments here. All help is very much appreciated as i have several pounds to process.
thanks again


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## cjeh (Jun 9, 2016)

https://www.pinterest.com/claude_henri/


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## justinhcase (Jun 9, 2016)

First ,Do not over react Just take a few days or weeks to read what people are about to say.
Now I live thousands of miles away from any kind of hard rock ore ,so I know nothing more than the average mupit who watches Discovery channel.
Is your workspace enclosed? have you a proper flew installed.
The rock you have has signs of heavy mineralisation and will have a very nice cocktail of extremely nasty compounds and elements which are turned to a vapor when heated strongly.
Likewise do not try processing with acid.
It is quite rare to see that much colour in a sample of gold but a great many compounds can look the same..
You need an assay before you do anything ells,But brace yourself to be disappointed.Either way, £20 spent on an assay will give you an idea of how well you have done or saved you months of wasted work.
And go from there.
Look up some examples of hard rock processing and note how fine they grind their material before processing.
I very much think you will need to start from the beginning.
Good insulation bricks ,they form a very good "Furnace" unfortunately just putting an air hose into the top of your furnace is only cooling the entire unit down.It need's to be mixed with fuel before combustion ,basically supercharging your torch.There are some quite cheap factory made unit's that save farting around
But read all the safety information on the subject before you try another melt.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=23926&p=252955&hilit=dialysis#p252955
Good Luck.
Justin


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## cjeh (Jun 9, 2016)

Justin ; Thanks for the safety tips. I read it all and now won't get sick. My shop is well ventilated.I also have a large roll up door that can be used for additional ventilation. 
I found out there is copper, silver, gold and iron ore in this rock. I will make an air injected propane forge for my next test. Before the test i will keep reading and gather additional information. I'm also building a rock crusher to pulverize the rock to dust making it easier to process. 
Thank you every one for your input. If any one has more good information i will very grateful.


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## Lou (Jun 9, 2016)

How much of each metal?


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## cjeh (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm not sure how much of each element there is but I can find out. It may take a few days.
thanks


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## nickvc (Jun 10, 2016)

As with all ores it's the nasties you need to know about and there are several very common ones associated with ores, you need to know what your dealing with to avoid any risk to you or anybody else's health.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jun 10, 2016)

nickvc said:


> As with all ores it's the nasties you need to know about and there are several very common ones associated with ores, you need to know what your dealing with to avoid any risk to you or anybody else's health.



This is very true. Least we not forget the forum gave another member the same advice not long ago and he decided not to pay attention to that advice. And he was man enough to come back on the forum to let the members know he is in bad health now because he didn't listen to the members and my never recover fully because he did not listen to that advice.


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## cjeh (Jun 10, 2016)

Thank you gents. This information is awesome. I really appreciate it. Ventilation is #1. I need to wait till next week to get all the ore details. I will keep on researching.
Thank you so very much


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## cjeh (Jun 15, 2016)

OK gents; I have a little more information. Moly .07%, copper .15%, gold .02%, silver .005 %.
This is the best information i could get. Please help me to refine this ore . I need some help with a propane forge to smelt out the gold. Ventilation is no problem, got a large roll up door and fans. i need to know what kind or borax and flux to use. How much of each per ounce of crushed ore. I am building a rock crusher and 4" diameter forge. I have 2 valves injecting propane and air. how long to refine? I am going to order alumina cups. Any other important information would be very helpful and greatly appreciated.
Thank you


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 15, 2016)

cjeh, this may not be what you want to hear, but I'm going to share my thoughts.

you mentioned in your first post that you have "a couple of pounds of gold and black sand". At 453 grams per pound, that's 906 grams, but let's round up to 1000 grams to make the math easy. 

Based on the percentages you've just given, you might have 1.5 grams of copper, 0.2 grams of gold, and 0.05 grams of silver. 

Other members have asked about an assay and mentioned nasty things that might be in your material. You've responded "My shop is well ventilated.I also have a large roll up door that can be used for additional ventilation." I fear you may not be taking the issue of safety seriously enough. There are two important reasons for getting an assay; 1 to find out if there are any values present, and 2 to find out what other dangerous elements may be present.

Justinhcase provided a link to a post made by another member who didn't listen to the advice to get an assay before he started roasting his ore. Barren Realms also referred to the thread, because the man nearly died and his health may never return to what it was.

Now just for the sake of argument, let's say that your roll up door and some fans will blow any toxic material out of your shop. Where? Who and what will you potentially poison with the toxins you vent out around your shop, and please don't dismiss the question by saying you don't have any neighbors near by. Heating your material can release toxins that can then enter the air, soil, and water, and that may remain after you move on.

The question is, is it really worth it to pursue this venture for the $8.31 worth of gold that might be in two pounds of material? I'm not trying to be mean, shatter your dreams, or discourage you from learning the art of recovery and refining. But I want you to step back and make a realistic assessment of whether the benefit is worth the risk. Only you can answer that question, but you can find that much gold in a couple of old computers.

Dave


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## cjeh (Jun 15, 2016)

Thank you for your reply. I received the information from a friend. True it's not a proper assay. These numbers are low and conservative. My shop is in an industrial area and later the ore will be processed a long ways out of town. I'm getting my FMC. Looking to buy a claim in a different area from where i got this batch of ore. Is it worth it , for me yes it is. Even if the yield is small , later the knowledge will be very helpful. I need the practice and am willing to follow proper procedures and precautions. All I'm asking for is the proper procedures and precautions. Can you please help me?
thanks


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 15, 2016)

cjeh said:


> All I'm asking for is the proper procedures and precautions. Can you please help me?
> thanks


I'm afraid I can't be of any help, as I have no experience in processing ores or natural concentrates. My only knowledge comes from what I've read, so I'm not qualified to give procedural advice in this area. 

Dave


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## cjeh (Jun 15, 2016)

I'd like to ask one last time to the members of this forum if anyone has any forge experience in refining gold. Perhaps someone can direct me to a site for help. Thanks to all who have contributed and given me good information. I do appreciate it. 
thanks


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## justinhcase (Jun 16, 2016)

I do not think material of such a low content is practical for someone not experienced in ore roasting and Cyanide.
Such material sometimes can be recovered in an industrial setting but is unrealistic for an amateur to pursue.
But do not let that stop you from studying.The subject is fascinating and the size of industrial tanks and ball mills mind blowing.
Where did you get your material from?Is it from your own property or was it sold to you.
Looking at "Fire Assay's" would be interesting and let you look at the process in more depth.
If you are interested in the process all the information on the subject is there for you but it will take you some time to understand,it can not be passed on in bulletin points.
If you find a good deposit and can check the content for yourself then pass it on to a mining firm.
You may even understand how to spot black sand and gold reliably. :lol:


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## cjeh (Jun 16, 2016)

Justin; Thank you very much for the information and guidance. After reviewing all messages and research material i have made a decision. Based on the fact that the ore was given to me by a friend it may be best to use the Aqua Regia to remove any gold in the black sand. The fire assay's is very interesting but too long a process. i have a partial fume hood that can be easily finished . It is attached to an excellent extraction fan. I have a north respirator, gloves and rubber body wear for protection. I need to study the process more and find out where to get the chemicals or acids. my rock crusher is coming along very nicely and will soon be finished. I'm purchasing aluninia cups for the final melt to bars. Also i have almost completed a 4" diameter and 6" long propane forge to use in the final melt. I have looked at your library and found the book needed for study. I can also purchase it for $50.00. i personally like the have a hard copy of the real thing. If you can make any other suggestion , give any other advise, books, videos which can be studied , it will be very much appreciated. I'm always willing to take good experienced advise. i don't like reinventing the wheel. With the time and money currently invested there is no stopping till I have the final product in my hands. Thank you one and all. You have made this 57 year old very happy.
Thank you


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## justinhcase (Jun 16, 2016)

Second good lesson,the first was why did I not get any gold from my first attempt.
Because there was hardly any there to start with.. 
The second will be Why we do not use Aqua Regia for Ore processing.
Fail inevitable survival not guaranteed. cadmium, mercury, lead and arsenic, chromium, cobalt, nickel, selenium, antimony Radium and thallium but to mention a few of the more obvious problems, there is not enough room or time to list all the problem compounds. . If you do not know how to detect and avoid them don't worry too much,just chart their progress by your loss of hair/teeth and slow decay into dementia.
Look forward to hearing your experiences.
:lol:
A fire assay has been found to be the easiest and least time consuming method for assessing the Preciouses metal content of material. It has stood the test of several thousand years.
If you think that is too time consuming you will be disappointed about the time and effort that will go into recovering value from base ore.Not to mention the only leach that works well will kill you dead with just one mistake. 
There are no short cut's!
Along with the seven P's the next best rule of thumb would be...What is the longest distance between point (A) and point (B)??.......The Short cut.
J


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