# Sodium Metabisulfite is hard to Get in norway...



## adrianbjorvatn (Jan 7, 2022)

So its real hard to find a place to buy SMB in Norway, so i Wonder if a can use zinc power instead in Aqua regia....?

Or what Else can i use? Got some Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Sulfate


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## Lino1406 (Jan 7, 2022)

Another reducer like ferrous sulphate...


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## goldandsilver123 (Jan 7, 2022)

Are you sure it's hard to find?

Sodium metabisulfite is a common food preservative.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jan 7, 2022)

adrianbjorvatn said:


> So its real hard to find a place to buy SMB in Norway, so i Wonder if a can use zinc power instead in Aqua regia....?


The reason we use sodium metabisulfite, or SO2, or ferrous sulfate, or other preferred reducing agents is that they are pretty selective at reducing just our target metals. Zinc, on the other hand, will precipitate almost every metal that is in solution.

If you dissolve some gold that is mixed with copper, iron, cadmium, nickel, tin, lead, etc., when you use a selective precipitant it will just reduce the gold (or nearly so). When you use zinc, it will precipitate just about every metal, leaving you pretty much where you started.

As goldandsilver123 suggested, you might be able to find it sold as a food preservative. Another good possibility is to check with any shops that sell beer or wine making supplies, where it is sold as a sanitizing agent.

Dave


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## 4metals (Jan 7, 2022)

Another thing, a down side to some, sodium metabisulfite smells terrible and if tou get a whiff you will remember it. Ferrous sulfate is much less offensive if you use it. There are threads on the forum about using it, just make sure that the reagent you get is slightly green and crystalline.


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## adrianbjorvatn (Jan 7, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> The reason we use sodium metabisulfite, or SO2, or ferrous sulfate, or other preferred reducing agents is that they are pretty selective at reducing just our target metals. Zinc, on the other hand, will precipitate almost every metal that is in solution.
> 
> If you dissolve some gold that is mixed with copper, iron, cadmium, nickel, tin, lead, etc., when you use a selective precipitant it will just reduce the gold (or nearly so). When you use zinc, it will precipitate just about every metal, leaving you pretty much where you started.
> 
> ...


Thanks, for a good answer


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## adrianbjorvatn (Jan 7, 2022)

goldandsilver123 said:


> Are you sure it's hard to find?
> 
> Sodium metabisulfite is a common food preservativeyeah



yeah i know... called and asked around! gonna check out the beer shop tomorrow


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## orvi (Jan 7, 2022)

adrianbjorvatn said:


> yeah i know... called and asked around! gonna check out the beer shop tomorrow


You can also use any other sulfite that is soluble in water, like sodium sulfite. It is available in shops that sell chemicals for developing classic photographs - scarce to find them nowdays, but here it is available in few places, when you buy it using your ID. Another name for metabisulfite is "pyrosulfite" - somewhat historical, but in wine making supplies shop here, it is still called pyrosulfite, even nowdays 

Ferrous sulfate could be purchased from local gardening store as moss killing chemical. Just make sure it isn´t "rusted" - yellowish translucent solid with rusty hint isn´t very good. It should be green coloured. Altough, you can purify it by dissolving the stuff in minimal water and filter the oxidized ferric oxohydroxides out. Then you can use the filtered solution to precipitate gold. It will be less effective when partially oxidized, but it will still work.


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## butcher (Jan 7, 2022)

Copperas, ferrous sulfate, iron II sulfate, FeSO4, green vitriol, is easy to make from dilute 10% H2SO4 sulfuric acid (sulfuric acid can be found in automotive battery acid or some drain cleaners) and Iron metal (a good source of soft iron is from your old transformers, the iron laminates from the electronic scrap pile).

You can use crystals of copperas to test for gold in the solution, or you can use your homemade copperas to selectively precipitate gold from the solution.

copperas is a reducing agent. helpful in our processes, for example, besides reducing gold selectively from a gold chloride solution, copperas is also helpful as a reducing agent in solution where it is helpful in reducing the free nitric acid in solution to nitrogen monoxide gas and or the chlorine gas to chlorides, heat is helpful as always in removing gases from the solution...

6 FeSO4 + 3 H2SO4 + 2 HNO3 --> 3 Fe2(SO4)3 + 4 H2O + 2 NO

6 FeSO4 + 3 Cl2 → 2 Fe2(SO4)3 + 2 FeCl3


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 7, 2022)

adrianbjorvatn said:


> So its real hard to find a place to buy SMB in Norway, so i Wonder if a can use zinc power instead in Aqua regia....?
> 
> Or what Else can i use? Got some Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Sulfate


Where in Norway do you live?
If I was home I could send you some, but bad luck, won't be back until summer.
I have not found it in small amounts so I bought 25Kg and shared with a friend.
I'll ask if he still have.


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## GuyGuyGuythe1st (Jan 7, 2022)

eBay, Amazon, Alibaba? You can’t order it online? Or is it a regulated chemical in Norway? If not, I do sell it in bulk.


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## eaglekeeper (Jan 8, 2022)

If you have a home brewing store in your area you can get SMB. I believe they call them campden tablets, they are used to kill off unwanted wild yeast prior to pitching your yeast. You can also find it in a store that sells canning supplies (I don't no the name of the product).


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## shruli (Jan 8, 2022)

I have only been at this a couple of years but doing pretty well thanks to advice & information available on this site. Added some pics of a recent project of plated & rolled (filled) gold jewellery. Nightmare trying to get nitric in the UK so I only use poor mans AR. Using really weak HCL & small increments of saltpetre on heat, the solution eats away at the base metals leaving almost all the gold & easily get back any tiny amount of gold that escapes in waste.
I'm no pro at this, so any tips to improve will always be welcome.
To the point of the thread! I read on here, the for & against using ascorbic acid (vitamin c). Tried it myself & now I don't use anything else. Every time, there is the initial fizz (sorry for any wrong terminology) & all the gold drops perfectly. Maybe worth a try?


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## butcher (Jan 8, 2022)

shruli,​I like it and would like to see and learn more that looks like some nice gold from that scrap.


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## shruli (Jan 8, 2022)

Thank you for the compliment Butcher!
I have been very pleased with the results, which are consistent so far. With plenty of trial & errors and obsessive reading & not being able to get nitric acid in the UK, I just balance the strength of HCL as low as 5-10% with potassium nitrate (saltpetre) to dissolve the base metals, stripping as much as I can by hand prior to any chemicals. I guess it's slower than nitric acid & probably creates a bit more, although diluted waste. I am using 20% HCL with potassium nitrate to dissolve the gold & any small amount recovered from the waste. I precipitate the gold with ascorbic acid (vitamin c) then boil with HCL then water.
I still feel very new to this, as there is so much to learn, but very happy to share what little experience I have gained. I have accumulated over 100grams of very nice gold so far & even made my wife a new 18ct rose gold wedding ring from some of it. Loving every minute, but would never have started without the valuable information available on this site, especially regarding safety.


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## Erceg (Jan 8, 2022)

Back a little to sodium metabisulfite problem. You can use potassium metabisulfite instead. You can find it in agricultural pharmacies, any store that deals with vine. It is called vine protector here. Dirt cheep. Only problem is that it can do funky stuff with PMG-s, drop them also. I have that written in my notes but all I know is from this forum so you can check it further.


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## nwinther (Jan 8, 2022)

adrianbjorvatn said:


> So its real hard to find a place to buy SMB in Norway, so i Wonder if a can use zinc power instead in Aqua regia....?
> 
> Or what Else can i use? Got some Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Sulfate


Curious Dane here, wondering where you get your feedstock (gold plate/-filled/carat) and how you do with other expenses, such as power and chemicals.
Here in Denmark, there's a heavy tax on power, silver and chemicals, so anything remotely golden or made from silver packs a premium in cost that you are unlikely to recover.
I don't refine or anything, just reading along, and I've found that refining is easier/less expensive/financially sustainable in other countries that don't have the same taxes.

So I was surprised to see a fellow Scandinavian actually doing it! Taxes are somewhat similar I guess but maybe you found a sweet spot somewhere in Norway.


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## davidzaslow (Jan 8, 2022)

I brew beer and make wine at.
Metabisulfpite is used more in wine than beer because of the sulfuric odor and taste stay in the beer so any wine making supply store will have it.
You can also try at a pharmacy.


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 8, 2022)

nwinther said:


> Curious Dane here, wondering where you get your feedstock (gold plate/-filled/carat) and how you do with other expenses, such as power and chemicals.
> Here in Denmark, there's a heavy tax on power, silver and chemicals, so anything remotely golden or made from silver packs a premium in cost that you are unlikely to recover.
> I don't refine or anything, just reading along, and I've found that refining is easier/less expensive/financially sustainable in other countries that don't have the same taxes.
> 
> So I was surprised to see a fellow Scandinavian actually doing it! Taxes are somewhat similar I guess but maybe you found a sweet spot somewhere in Norway.


Most here start it as a hobby, and reading his post I assume he hasn't quite started yet.
The hardest part is getting a steady feedstock. I used to get free discarded Laptops from my work.
That was enough to feed my hobby.
With the AP process and cherry picking, the cost are quite low.
But so are speed which don't matter much if it is a hobby.
The next thing, and I have not done it yet, is to sell your gold.
I have no idea on how to do that.
Regards Per-Ove


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## nwinther (Jan 8, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Most here start it as a hobby, and reading his post I assume he hasn't quite started yet.
> The hardest part is getting a steady feedstock. I used to get free discarded Laptops from my work.
> That was enough to feed my hobby.
> With the AP process and cherry picking, the cost are quite low.
> ...


AP?

Selling your gold, I'd expect you could go into a jewelers (with a workshop) and he'd buy it.


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## Jim Rocco (Jan 8, 2022)

Lino1406 said:


> Another reducer like ferrous sulphate...


Use urea to replace SMB


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 8, 2022)

nwinther said:


> AP?
> 
> Selling your gold, I'd expect you could go into a jewelers (with a workshop) and he'd buy it.


Copper chloride etching, in short AP, or AcidPeroxide.
The AP is not what really goes on, but easier to say than Copper Chloride etching.


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 8, 2022)

Jim Rocco said:


> Use urea to replace SMB


Please inform us how Urea can sensibly be used as anything else than a fertalizer. 
And more specially replace SMB as a precipitant of Gold?


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## adrianbjorvatn (Jan 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Where in Norway do you live?
> If I was home I could send you some, but bad luck, won't be back until summer.
> I have not found it in small amounts so I bought 25Kg and shared with a friend.
> I'll ask if he still have.


Live at Sørlandet, but i think my mom’s Old boss had a 1000kg bag, at his work


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## adrianbjorvatn (Jan 9, 2022)

nwinther said:


> Curious Dane here, wondering where you get your feedstock (gold plate/-filled/carat) and how you do with other expenses, such as power and chemicals.
> Here in Denmark, there's a heavy tax on power, silver and chemicals, so anything remotely golden or made from silver packs a premium in cost that you are unlikely to recover.
> I don't refine or anything, just reading along, and I've found that refining is easier/less expensive/financially sustainable in other countries that don't have the same taxes.
> 
> So I was surprised to see a fellow Scandinavian actually doing it! Taxes are somewhat similar I guess but maybe you found a sweet spot somewhere in Norway.


I work with garbage, so found a lot Of the chemicals i need at work
But the nitric acid is forbidden for private persons to have, in norway after 2011 explosion... so making it my self


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 9, 2022)

I sent you a direct message.
SMB eventually go.bad when subjected to air, but it takes time.

So if you can get some of it the good.
Test it by adding into HCl and if it evolves a strong sulfuric smell (SO2)
it will work.
Regards Per-Ove.


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## adrianbjorvatn (Jan 9, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Most here start it as a hobby, and reading his post I assume he hasn't quite started yet.
> The hardest part is getting a steady feedstock. I used to get free discarded Laptops from my work.
> That was enough to feed my hobby.
> With the AP process and cherry picking, the cost are quite low.
> ...


Hobby here to, have started 
You can Sell the gold to Bjørklund Gold Smith


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 9, 2022)

adrianbjorvatn said:


> I work with garbage, so found a lot Of the chemicals i need at work
> But the nitric acid is forbidden for private persons to have, in norway after 2011 explosion... so making it my self


Not entirely forbidden, but you need a license as private business.
And a willing supplier.
I normally live in Bergen so I have found a wholesale supplier.
But sometimes that mean you have to buy much more than needed.
Regards Per-Ove


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## adrianbjorvatn (Jan 9, 2022)

orvi said:


> You can also use any other sulfite that is soluble in water, like sodium sulfite. It is available in shops that sell chemicals for developing classic photographs - scarce to find them nowdays, but here it is available in few places, when you buy it using your ID. Another name for metabisulfite is "pyrosulfite" - somewhat historical, but in wine making supplies shop here, it is still called pyrosulfite, even nowdays
> 
> Ferrous sulfate could be purchased from local gardening store as moss killing chemical. Just make sure it isn´t "rusted" - yellowish translucent solid with rusty hint isn´t very good. It should be green coloured. Altough, you can purify it by dissolving the stuff in minimal water and filter the oxidized ferric oxohydroxides out. Then you can use the filtered solution to precipitate gold. It will be less effective when partially oxidized, but it will still work.


Got a little glass of Sodium sulfite, gotta do a Aqua regia later and try with it


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 9, 2022)

I was thinking about KA Rasmussen, but we'll see.


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## nickvc (Jan 9, 2022)

Many countries have buyers for precious metals it’s finding an honest one that’s the problem , if you ever travel to the UK let me know I can suggest an honest buyer.


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## Zhazham (Jan 9, 2022)

I had a problem finding sodium metabisulfite from here in Finland. It was available but wine and beer shops sold just big packages and price was ludicrous. Eventually i found 1 kg bag from Turkish manufacturer from Aliexpress. As it came outside EU, i had to declare it. Not a biggie.

Another thing i found out is that it is sold under diffferent names. When looking from sources selling food preservatives, it's E-code is E223.


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## Martijn (Jan 9, 2022)

I got mine here: 





E223 | Buy Sodium Metabisulphate E 223 Food Additive Online


Buy E223 sodium metabisulphate online ➤ for home cooks & professionals ✓ best prices on E 223 food additive ✓ Top quality.




www.naturalspices.com


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## Martijn (Jan 9, 2022)

And yes, I know is says sulfAte, but it is sulfite. E223.
Spelling mistake I guess.


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## orvi (Jan 9, 2022)

I don´t know how it works in more developed western countries tho. But sodium sulfite or metabisulfite is dirt cheap chemical manufactured on industrial level, used in numerous applications all across many fields of chemistry. It is transported in wagons, 1m3 bags, dumped to chutes, shoveled to the reactors (seen with my eyes  ) etc...
I will try to find a facility where it is used/manufactured a lot, and try to email them with request of an small sample (in their meaning small sample is somwhere around kg  ) for this and that - you must be creative  say you want to develop old photos but do not have this chemical for chemical composition of developing solution... 
Be very polite in your communication, explain your situation with no other publicly available options... etc 
As the chemical is non-toxic, cheap and is not regulated, there is chance that you will be sucessful.
It cost nothing to send few emails, maybe you will be lucky... 

I was sucessful from time to time with sample request mainly about refractory materials from bigger companies - some willing to get them for free, some charge me some money for them etc  it is all about chance, you must have luck for generous and understanding salesman  many will not write back, many will politely reject you, some could give you the options - for free or for small fee + 99% times you need to arrange the shipment from them to you on your own.
Many people were successful with samples of chemicals from Alibaba and other big manufacturers in eg India or China, but I never succeeded with foreign companies.


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## Zhazham (Jan 9, 2022)

I guess in nordic countries, weak supply is just because of small markets at consumer level. I don't know anyone else in Finland who need small amounts of SMB to drop gold


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## nwinther (Jan 10, 2022)

Zhazham said:


> I guess in nordic countries, weak supply is just because of small markets at consumer level. I don't know anyone else in Finland who need small amounts of SMB to drop gold


Many chemicals in the nordic countries have been banned or we simply stopped using them so stores stopped stocking them.

When I was a kid (i'm 42), we had stores in every town (Materialist in Danish, I guess something similar to chemist (the english version) where you could buy any number of acids and compounds, such as sulphur, soda, lye, nitric and HCL, alcohols (not liquor) and petrolium products.
They began carrying perfumes and make-up which was just a small part of their business, when I was a kid, and now you can't buy anything else.

The reason was, probably, that people stopped using lye when cleaning, but instead bought cleaning products and soaps at the supermarkets, stopped pickling and curing their own foods etc.

I know a younger woman at work who was trained professionally in such a store, thinking they'd be dealing with makeup and perfumes. The professional school she went to, had one day of makeup, the rest was how to store and care for chemicals and their containers, such as this product weren't allowed to be stored next to that product, and other products' containers had to be wiped down every so often because the chemical would somehow leak.

Then came 9/11 and everything concievable that could be made to assist in terrorism was banned. Sulphur, potassium nitrate and carbon powder at first couldn't be bought all at once and eventually it was banned or they stopped carrying those items.

So now the most basic products are very exotic to most Danes, and if you are familiar with any it's because you have a certain profession or work in farming, and then you only know a few, and can only buy in bulk and with certain permissions/limitations.


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