# Gold sand



## Minner20 (Jan 10, 2021)

Hi guys 
Forgive my ignorant question but I'm still learning from the forum and from Hoke's book.

I have a metal detector and by using it I got a good amount of soil that contains precious metals ( strongly believe it's gold only )
I used the panning method to wash off all the dirt and got gold with sand ( as in the attached picture )

I'm confused now what to do next!?
Thanks
Aj


----------



## Lino1406 (Jan 10, 2021)

What you think is sand may be gold too, or rust. You may melt as is with a little borax which will collect sand and rust


----------



## butcher (Jan 11, 2021)

If you can see what you think is gold in that pan full of sand (as in the picture), it is most likely not gold but mica or pyrites or fools gold.
Real gold will be hidden under the sand, and you almost never see it until you pan out almost all of the other material (sand and rocks from the pan).

Being a beginner to panning for gold, I would put some pieces of lead in the pan similar to the size of the gold, count the pieces of lead so you can retrieve them all after finished panning for the gold.

The gold is much denser than any of the other materials in the pan, more than three times the density of any sand or gravel, it is denser than the lead.

Shaking the pan any gold and your lead will go to the bottom of the other rocks sand and gravel, now tilting your pan forward to work the heavier materials into the bottom corner of your pan as you violently shake and slosh the pan around and then side to side.
tilting the pan forward dump off the top layers of sand (into your large tub of water used as a catch pan and the source for your panning water.
Reload the pan with water and repeat the process until the only thing left is gold and your lead left in the pan.
after panning off most all of the black sands you can wash the rest away from the gold and lead with carefully rolling of the pan so the water rolls over the top of the sands lightly washing the remaining lighter black sand away from your gold particles and pieces of lead...

with this method, you can separate gold that is almost too small for the eye to see and gold which could be better seen with a jewelers loop, from iron rocks as big as your fist, and any sands or gravels, although classifying your material will make it easier to pan.


Pan the material into a large tub of water so any material you pan from your pan will be caught in the tub (and can be redone if needed.

Pan out everything but the lead and the gold, by panning you can pan out most all of the heavier sands of iron ore composition such as the black sands of hematite and magnetite, which are heavier than the other sands of quartz and other gravels, you can wash away all of the gravel and sands even the heavier sands away from the gold and your pieces of lead with a little practice.

Panning is a skill easy to learn and do, once you get the hang of it.
Panning and practicing with the lead is a good way to learn.

If your gold washes out of the pan before the lead, or if the gold of similar size moves around easier in the pan than the pieces of lead then it is not gold. if you can hammer the gold to pieces it is not gold, gold is malleable and will flatten under the hammer fools gold will shatter or smash to pieces...

A metal detector will react to many different minerals besides gold, in fact, metal detectors or gold detectors are normally better at detecting worthless "hot rocks", trash and iron, and other metals and salts than they are at detecting gold.
Just like panning for gold, using a metal detector to find gold is a skill that takes practice.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 11, 2021)

Lino1406 said:


> What you think is sand may be gold too, or rust. You may melt as is with a little borax which will collect sand and rust



I tried this method with an electrical furnace with max temperature 1150 C° but it didn't work :| , 
so I think I'll use the AR method. Thanks


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 11, 2021)

butcher said:


> If you can see what you think is gold in that pan full of sand (as in the picture), it is most likely not gold but mica or pyrites or fools gold.
> Real gold will be hidden under the sand, and you almost never see it until you pan out almost all of the other material (sand and rocks from the pan).
> 
> Being a beginner to panning for gold, I would put some pieces of lead in the pan similar to the size of the gold, count the pieces of lead so you can retrieve them all after finished panning for the gold.
> ...



Thank you for the thorough reply and explanation.
Well, I can say that after almost a month of practicing panning I can say that I did as you described.
Using the panning skills, I'm pretty sure that what in the pan is gold because it's much heavier than water, dirt, and sand.


The gold I have is hidden under the sand and you can barely see it under the sand.


----------



## jmdlcar (Jan 11, 2021)

I would like to pan for Gold but in Ohio I don't think there is no place to do it that I know of.


----------



## g_axelsson (Jan 11, 2021)

Pyrite is heavier than water, mud and sand. It looks like gold for the untrained.

Take some of your gold and crush it between two metal surfaces. Does it become yellow and shiny, then it looks good. If it turns black as ink or a black with a green tint then you have pyrite or some other sulfide mineral.

Pyrite does conduct electricity so big enough concentrations can register on a metal detector. It is usually called heavy mineralized ground.

Göran


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 11, 2021)

g_axelsson said:


> Pyrite is heavier than water, mud and sand. It looks like gold for the untrained.
> 
> Take some of your gold and crush it between two metal surfaces. Does it become yellow and shiny, then it looks good. If it turns black as ink or a black with a green tint then you have pyrite or some other sulfide mineral.
> 
> ...



I understand that pyrite is also heavier than water, but with gold in the pan you feel that it will not move.

I have a dust gold so I can't crush my gold between two metal surfaces as you suggested. Is there any other way do you have to offer me?
Thanks
Aj


----------



## nickvc (Jan 11, 2021)

If indeed you have gold in your pan and it is as fine as you describe you can dissolve it with HCl and hydrogen peroxide or bleach, filter the solution and either test using stannous or precipitate using smb or copperas.


----------



## g_axelsson (Jan 11, 2021)

I suggest you listen to Nick. That is a good suggestion. Fine gold is easily dissolved in HCl + bleach or HCl + strong hydrogen peroxide, and the liquid is easy to test with stannous chloride.

Göran


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 12, 2021)

nickvc said:


> If indeed you have gold in your pan and it is as fine as you describe you can dissolve it with HCl and hydrogen peroxide or bleach, filter the solution and either test using stannous or precipitate using smb or copperas.



Appreciate your reply.. many thanks 

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 12, 2021)

g_axelsson said:


> I suggest you listen to Nick. That is a good suggestion. Fine gold is easily dissolved in HCl + bleach or HCl + strong hydrogen peroxide, and the liquid is easy to test with stannous chloride.
> 
> Göran



I will. Thank you 

Aj


----------



## nickvc (Jan 12, 2021)

Fingers crossed you have gold there 8)


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 20, 2021)

Hi again,
Please look at the new photo and tell me if I'm doing well.
What's next ? What are substitutes for Stannous chloride ?


----------



## nickvc (Jan 20, 2021)

Stannous is very easy to make simply get some lead free solder and dissolve in HCl and leave a little of the solder in the solution.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 20, 2021)

nickvc said:


> Stannous is very easy to make simply get some lead free solder and dissolve in HCl and leave a little of the solder in the solution.



Thank you Neck,
Do you think from the previous photo that I'm on the right way? Meaning what I have is gold and is now dissolved ? 
When comes the stage of precipitation ? Melting ? 
Regards


----------



## nickvc (Jan 20, 2021)

Unfortunately the color of a solution tells you very little unless you know what went into making it, the only way to find out is to test it with stannous and post photos so we can see what you see, then we should have an answer as to whether you have any good or not.


----------



## Dr.xyz (Jan 20, 2021)

Why did you focus your picture at the floor and table legs?

Every time a new user comes up and says "OMG FOUND GOLD!!!" it ends up being nothing at all.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 20, 2021)

nickvc said:


> Unfortunately the color of a solution tells you very little unless you know what went into making it, the only way to find out is to test it with stannous and post photos so we can see what you see, then we should have an answer as to whether you have any good or not.



I thank you again and appreciate your answers.

Regards


----------



## jmdlcar (Jan 20, 2021)

I order the PayDirt and it came yesterday. I didn't get much but I now have some Alaska Gold it feel good to have some. I won't get rich but I might.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 21, 2021)

Dr.xyz said:


> Why did you focus your picture at the floor and table legs?
> 
> Every time a new user comes up and says "OMG FOUND GOLD!!!" it ends up being nothing at all.



I didn't focus on the floor, I just tried to show the solution. 
Thank you so much for being an "older " user who came with many advices.

Wish you a pleasant day


----------



## Yggdrasil (Jan 21, 2021)

Minner.
I think he pointed to the fact that the focus on the image is not the solution but the table.
It is next to impossible to see what the solution is,it is so blurry that it is just different shades of brown.
Try to make another one, in focus, and repost, then maybe we can help.


----------



## Ohiogoldfever (Jan 21, 2021)

jmdlcar said:


> I would like to pan for Gold but in Ohio I don't think there is no place to do it that I know of.



I’m in Ohio as well. You can find gold here. Do some research you’ll find the info you need.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 28, 2021)

I've done the Stannous chloride test on a filter and got a satisfying result ( I guess )



The problem is that I had to use a big quantity of nitric to dissolve the gold so I got trouble during precipitation.

Any ideas please ?

Aj


----------



## Yggdrasil (Jan 28, 2021)

Minner!
Can you please elaborate what we are seeing here?
Is this the dissolved powder or what?

I can't see any gold from stannous here, it is supposed to be purple to black, depending on concentration.
There is something strange with this one.
So once more, give us a step by step on what you did so we can figure this one out.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 28, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Minner!
> Can you please elaborate what we are seeing here?
> Is this the dissolved powder or what?
> 
> ...



Hi,
I covered the sand with HCl and started to add nitric until the reaction was over.
Later I took few drops of the solution and added SnCl2 ( salt ) and got this brownish/ black color


----------



## Yggdrasil (Jan 28, 2021)

Well to me it looks like what is called a "false positive".
First and foremost it is best done with Tin dissolved in HCl or at least the SnCl2 dissolved in HCl and then add some extra Tin to give it longer shelf life.

It has to be denoxxed so it is nitric (oxidizer) free.
Then add a drop to a drop plate, a paper or something else. 
After that add a drop of the stannous liquid on the same spot.
The test is very sensitive so if there are gold, it *WILL* show very clearly.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 28, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Well to me it looks like what is called a "false positive".
> First and foremost it is best done with Tin dissolved in HCl or at least the SnCl2 dissolved in HCl and then add some extra Tin to give it longer shelf life.
> 
> It has to be denoxxed so it is nitric (oxidizer) free.
> ...



Thank you for your answer.
I have the Tin (II) Chloride as attached, do I still have to dissolve it in HCl ? If so at what ratio ?
Can you please be more specific about the part " It has to be denoxxed so it is nitric (oxidizer) free. "

Aj


----------



## Martijn (Jan 28, 2021)

Tin 2 chloride is soluble in water, up to 83.9 g/100 ml (0 °C) but may need a little free HCL to work porperly or conserve it better. Most precipitants need an acidic environment to work. Your auric chloride usually holds enough free HCL. 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin(II)_chloride&ved=2ahUKEwiC-7bA577uAhWF7qQKHfOoBl4QFjAaegQINhAI&usg=AOvVaw1a2ts8Wn_A6HJNqkP42nuW&cshid=1611843123571 
Dosing with a drop bottle is easier and will use less. Adding it dry should work too i guess. You might use more than needed. 

If the soluton is not denoxxed propery, the precipitated gold will re-dissolve since you still have aqua regia. 
Not adding too much nitric is better. Stannous can overcome a bit of free HNO3, but not much. It turns ito tin paste in nitric and looses its function as reagent. 
Martijn.


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 28, 2021)

Martijn said:


> Tin 2 chloride is soluble in water, up to 83.9 g/100 ml (0 °C) but may need a little free HCL to work porperly or conserve it better. Most precipitants need an acidic environment to work. Your auric chloride usually holds enough free HCL.
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin(II)_chloride&ved=2ahUKEwiC-7bA577uAhWF7qQKHfOoBl4QFjAaegQINhAI&usg=AOvVaw1a2ts8Wn_A6HJNqkP42nuW&cshid=1611843123571
> Dosing with a drop bottle is easier and will use less. Adding it dry should work too i guess. You might use more than needed.
> 
> ...




Marijn,
Thank you for the information.
If I understand you right, I need to precipitate before doing the test in the dissolved Tin 2 chloride. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

Aj


----------



## Yggdrasil (Jan 28, 2021)

If you precipitate, the metal salts converts to elemental metal and will not react any more to stannous.
*Have you dissolved ALL base metals and gold?*
If not, what ever gold that may have been in there, have probabaly cemented out again, and as a result the stannous will be negative.
Stannous will only react to metal salts not the metals them self.

As a digression I will emphasize that it would be wise for you to stop this, for the time beeing, until you actually understand what you are dooing. Read and reread Hoke until you understand what she is saying and dooing.
Find som small amount of know gold and follow her advice.
This way, you and others around you, will not be harmed.


----------



## butcher (Jan 28, 2021)

If I have gold in sands I would have no need for a stannous chloride test, using gravity and panning will separate the gold. anyone familiar with panning for gold will recognize gold in his pan.

iIn fact, if you have gold in sands leaching would be a terrible choice of recovery method. gravity is your friend with placer gold. No need to leach or use chemicals for recovery. No need for special acid tests or machine tests to be able to identify the gold, because the density is so much different than any of the other materials, panning alone will tell you if it is gold or not and give you a method to recover that gold...

I am somewhat surprised by the stannous chloride test you have, if you leached most any sands from around here you will probably get some indication of gold, even if the sand was not worth the time of panning.

Read hokes page 100 she shows you how to test for iron in solution (what I suspect you have) Iron can look similar to gold in solution, just as pyrite can look like gold to those who are new to mining gold.

Stannous chloride test is so very sensitive for gold, even if the sands did contain pyrite which could possibly have traces of gold in the matrix, the stannous chloride test would show up positive even if the ore was worthless to try and recover any of the gold from it. 

While your reading Hokes, I would also study the getting acquainted experiments and get yourself acquainted with gold, and testing... Doing the tests she suggests to gain an understanding.


You can file some gold filings off some of your old jewelry, weigh it, throw it in the pan full of sand, take an old lead fishing weight, again get some filings and weigh them, throw them in the pan full of sand, gravel, and rocks.

in a larger tub of water practice your panning, separating the rocks sand, and gravel from the lead, separate the lead from the gold weigh the fillings, practice till it becomes natural and easy to separate the gold filings from all of the lighter materials.


----------



## g_axelsson (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm surprised that no one commented on putting aqua regia in a stainless spoon and thinking it should be possible to detect any gold at all.

Stannous tests are mostly done in plastic spoons, porcelain spot plates, on a filter paper or a cotton swab. But never on a stainless steel spoon!

Read Hoke, it has procedures on denoxing, on how to make stannous solution and testing among other things.

Göran


----------



## Yggdrasil (Jan 29, 2021)

I have to write that up as a case of temporaray and selective blindness in my case.
I'm a bit ashamed I didnt notice.


----------



## kurtak (Jan 29, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> It has to be denoxxed so it is nitric (oxidizer) free.
> Then add a drop to a drop plate, a paper or something else.
> After that add a drop of the stannous liquid on the same spot.
> The test is very sensitive so if there are gold, it *WILL* show very clearly.



per the underlined - actually the AR does NOT need to be de-noxxed before doing a stannous test

There can be a LOT of free nitric in the AR & the purple stain (positive for gold) will still show up

However - if there is free nitric the purple stain will "go away" because the nitric re-dissolves the gold that makes the purple stain

If you do the test in a spot plate (or plastic spoon) & there is a LOT of free nitric the purple will show up but then go away almost instantly --- if there is very little free nitric it will take longer for the gold to re-dissolve (take longer for the purple to go away)

So - depending on the amount of free nitic in the AR will depend on how long it takes for the stain to disappear

It can be anywhere from instantly to a couple hours (or even a day)

If you do the test on a cotton swab or on paper the stain will hold for a bit longer - even if there is a LOT of free nitric --- in other words(when free nitric is involved) doing the test with a swab or on paper gives you "a bit" more of a time delay to tell you if gold is in solution compared to doing the test in a spot plate

Bottom line - if gold is in solution - a stannous test will always tell you that in fact gold is in solution - but it can/will also tell you if there is free nitric in solution - & to some degree it will tell you if there is a LOT of free nitric - a fair amount of free nitric - some free nitric - a little free nitric (or no free nitric when the stain never goes away)

The amount of free nitric also depends on what happens when you go to drop your gold

If there is a LOT of free nitric the gold may not drop at all

if there is a fair amount of free nitric the gold my drop - BUT - re-dissolve "instantly"

if there is some free nitric the gold may drop & even settle to the bottom of the beaker - but then re-dissolve if left to sit for awhile (2 - 4 hours)

With (very) little free nitric the gold will drop (even giving you a negative stannous test) but come back a couple hours later & you get a positive stannous test because even though much of the gold "stays" dropped "some" of it re-dissolves (one of the reasons for sending all AR solutions to the stock pot for copper cementing) 

What happens - whether testing or dropping depends on ratios --- HCl to nitric to amount of gold dissolved in the HCl/nitric - with the amount of the nitric being the question as to what happens to the gold that is dissolved in the HCl when you go to test &/or drop the gold

Kurt


----------



## kurtak (Jan 29, 2021)

g_axelsson said:


> I'm surprised that no one commented on putting aqua regia in a stainless spoon and thinking it should be possible to detect any gold at all.
> 
> Göran



IF (big IF) there was gold gold in solution - then what you see in the SS spoon maybe cemented gold

But as I say - that's a BIG IF

Kurt


----------



## kurtak (Jan 29, 2021)

Minner20 said:


> I've done the Stannous chloride test on a filter and got a satisfying result ( I guess )
> 20210127_222027.jpg
> 
> The problem is that I had to use a big quantity of nitric to dissolve the gold so I got trouble during precipitation.
> ...



That is NOT a satisfying result - you are using WAY to much solution for your test (at least for taking a pic to show us the results of your test --- pics can be deceiving)

for a better (pic) test result - put ONE drop of the solution on the paper (with no stannous) --- then on another part of the paper put another ONE drop of the solution & then put ONE drop of stannous on the drop of that solution - take a pic & show it to us

Kurt


----------



## kurtak (Jan 29, 2021)

Minner20 said:


> Later I took few drops of the solution and added SnCl2 ( salt ) and got this brownish/ black color
> 02.jpg



Looks to me like the the AR is simply dissolving the iron in the stainless steel spoon

In other words - the SS spoon is mostly iron - when you put the AR in the SS spoon the AR is going to work at trying to dissolve that iron - so you are simply seeing a reaction between the AR & the SS spoon

Do your stannous test in a (white) plastic spoon 

Kurt


----------



## Martijn (Jan 29, 2021)

This test is to show metals in solution. 
So if you want to make sure you have dissolved gold, yes before precipitation. 
If you want to make sure you have all the gold out after precipitation, you test the solution after settling the gold.
So to prove the solution is containing gold or proving all has dropped. 
Always test one drop on filter paper or spotplate. Dilute the solution if the reaction is too dark.
Martijn.

Edited: wow! I missed a whole page of comments before posting... facepalm...


----------



## cosmetal (Jan 29, 2021)

Minner20 said:


> Hi guys
> Forgive my ignorant question but I'm still learning from the forum and from Hoke's book.
> 
> I have a metal detector and by using it I got a good amount of soil that contains precious metals ( strongly believe it's gold only )
> ...



Aj,

You have received excellent advice from some of the most knowledgeable members of this board.

That being said, I have some basic questions: 

1.) How much paydirt did you have to pan through to get this result?
2.) Your paydirt appears to be exceptionally clean of any black sands (magnetite, hematite, and any other ironstone). Did you find any black sands in your soils or did you pan them all out of this sample?
3.) Do you have a lot of this soil to process? 

Your pictured sample of the pan appears almost too good to be true. I am not implying that you are untruthful. I am saying in my 40+ years of gold prospecting and mining within California US and Arizona US, I have never been that lucky to find so much of what appears to be fine gold within my dredges, sluices, or pans. 

If you are, indeed, finding gold of this volume with your metal detector and pan only, my advice to you is to invest in some gravity concentrators designed for the small or recreational miner that will reduce your materials much more efficiently than a gold pan.

Depending upon how clean you get your final output, you may, eventually, get the results you want through chemical leaching. I never did, because my final cons (concentrates) always contained a lot of black sands making chemical leaching next to impossible for me. I now smelt and use cupellation on my final black sand cons.

I hope you acquire many kronor from your efforts!  

Peace and health,
James


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 29, 2021)

I missed all the replies in this page since I simply didn't see it!  

I've done another two tests today,

First, I put a golden earing ( weights 2g ) with 30ml HCl and 10ml nitric, then I tested the solution with SnCl2 on a plastic spoon and got the result as in pic 1

Then I did another experiment, I put 30g of my sand with premixed AR ( 30ml nitric + 120ml HCl )
, got the result as in pic 2

I repeated the test from the second experiment several times, some times the color disappears almost directly, other times I got transparent color only, other times no change happened on the solution.

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 30, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> If you precipitate, the metal salts converts to elemental metal and will not react any more to stannous.
> *Have you dissolved ALL base metals and gold?*
> If not, what ever gold that may have been in there, have probabaly cemented out again, and as a result the stannous will be negative.
> Stannous will only react to metal salts not the metals them self.
> ...



Thank you again for your reply,
I haven't dissolved the base metals yet, I thought just to make sure I have some gold in my sand before wasting some more chemicals :| 

I'm still reading and learning from Hoke, she's amazing in everything.
Regards 

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 30, 2021)

butcher said:



> If I have gold in sands I would have no need for a stannous chloride test, using gravity and panning will separate the gold. anyone familiar with panning for gold will recognize gold in his pan.
> 
> iIn fact, if you have gold in sands leaching would be a terrible choice of recovery method. gravity is your friend with placer gold. No need to leach or use chemicals for recovery. No need for special acid tests or machine tests to be able to identify the gold, because the density is so much different than any of the other materials, panning alone will tell you if it is gold or not and give you a method to recover that gold...
> 
> ...



Great advice! Thank you so much. I will check the page 100 and 
I will try your way in panning the lead. :wink: 

Actually, the density of the sand ( or whatever is there ) during panning is what was remarkable, the last sand fist was very heavy in water and almost didn't move out of the pan until I poured alot of water.

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 30, 2021)

g_axelsson said:


> I'm surprised that no one commented on putting aqua regia in a stainless spoon and thinking it should be possible to detect any gold at all.
> 
> Stannous tests are mostly done in plastic spoons, porcelain spot plates, on a filter paper or a cotton swab. But never on a stainless steel spoon!
> 
> ...



Thank you Göran, I got that notice already and did the test again on a plastic spoon :wink: 

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Jan 30, 2021)

cosmetal said:


> Minner20 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys
> ...



James,
With my metal detector I got almost 0.5 kg of soil which should contain precious metal.

I used the sieve to clean all the dirt and worthless rocks, the I used the pan to get rid of the sand and light dirt.
I put what left on heat to dry off the water, waited until it became cold sand again and started to use the magnetic bar to collect all the iron.
Then I used the pan again to make sure that all dirt is cleared ( the picture you commented too good to be true was at this stage )

This is my first attempt to get some gold so wish me the best.

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 1, 2021)

Hi again, 

This question is Just for curiosity and learning purpose ! 

I took a fist from the same sand, covered it with HCl and started adding nitric incrementally until the solution got calm ( no action ) 
I filtered the solution and added some Sulfuric acid and good amount of SMB until all the nitric was killed ( no action again )

Can somebody please explain why I got a yellow powder ?

Thanks


----------



## modtheworld44 (Feb 1, 2021)

answer

Lead sulphate

modtheworld44


----------



## Martijn (Feb 1, 2021)

That makes me think your gold sand is actually a form of lead oxide called massicot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massicot
It's density is almost as heavy as silver, 9.64g/cm3 
Martijn.


----------



## Martijn (Feb 1, 2021)

Locations for lead oxide mines in Sweden:


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 1, 2021)

I have zero knowledge about the lead.

Can you please explain more to me about it?

Aj


----------



## Martijn (Feb 1, 2021)

You found sand with a heavy yellow colored powdery substance in it. Since you could pan it to a concentrate. Indicating a high density. Much higher than sand and rock. 
No wonder you got exited. I would be. 

But later on you dissolved a bit of it in AR, and added H2SO4 to push any lead out as lead oxide. 
You did push a lot out.. meaning your yellow sand is probably some form of litharge, also known as lead oxide. 
Used in smelting. 

If you would cupel it (or fire assay) in a bone ash cupel or some portland cement, it would probably disappear completely.
One form is the one i found a picture of. Look at the wikipedia link and you'll see. Also the density. 
But with that little soil you panned, how heavy was the concentrate? I think you may come to mythical ore grades if it were gold. 
And you live in sweden, hence the PbO mining sites i looked up. You live near one of them maybe?


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Feb 1, 2021)

Martijn said:


> But later on you dissolved a bit of it in AR, and added H2SO4 to push any lead out as lead oxide.
> You did push a lot out.. meaning your yellow sand is probably some form of litharge, also known as lead oxide.
> Used in smelting.
> 
> ...



I believe by adding sulfuric acid (H2SO4) to lead dissolved in AR, you will form lead sulfate (PbSO4), not lead oxide. I could be wrong.

I don't know what happens if you try to cupel lead sulfate. Be careful heating any lead compounds as the fumes are quite toxic.

Dave


----------



## Martijn (Feb 1, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Martijn said:
> 
> 
> > But later on you dissolved a bit of it in AR, and added H2SO4 to push any lead out as lead oxide.
> ...


Good to point out! Safety first!

I meant the panned concentrate from the sand of course. Not the precipitated lead sulfate from the digestion in AR. 
And it's just a suggestion to consider for Aj a a possible determination of what he might have.
There are a lot of heavy yellow minerals around i guess. 
This just sounded very logical to me. 

And to Aj: 
The precipitated lead sulfate needs to be filtered before adding SMB.

Smelting is a whole science on it's own and needs study to perform safe. I was speaking hypothetically. Don't try this at home :wink:


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 1, 2021)

Martijn said:


> You found sand with a heavy yellow colored powdery substance in it. Since you could pan it to a concentrate. Indicating a high density. Much higher than sand and rock.
> No wonder you got exited. I would be.
> 
> But later on you dissolved a bit of it in AR, and added H2SO4 to push any lead out as lead oxide.
> ...



Martijn,
During the precipitation, I only added few drops of Sulfuric acid (like 7ml or so) and added alot of SMB ( kept adding it till it stopped reaction )
You asked about how heavy was the concentrate, well it was heavy to the point I had to pour a good amount of water in order to move the sand out of the pan. 
Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 2, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Martijn said:
> 
> 
> > But later on you dissolved a bit of it in AR, and added H2SO4 to push any lead out as lead oxide.
> ...



Thank you Dave, yes safety first :wink:


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 5, 2021)

Hi again, 
I followed all the steps in Hoke's chapter V and succeeded to get the brown powder after precipitation with copperas.
It was a tiny amount of powder but that's fine as a beginning. 

Hoke recommended, before melting the powder, to wash the powder with Hydrochloric and water in order to get free of copperas. But when I added the HCl and water the powder is gone and disappeared  

I tried to boil again but it seems useless !
What do you guys recommend ? 

Aj


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Feb 5, 2021)

Test with stannous chloride.

Dave


----------



## g_axelsson (Feb 6, 2021)

It sounds like you got iron hydroxide precipitating from the copperas. It will dissolve in hydrochloric acid. A stannous test will reveal if you dissolved any gold.

Also you should test the waste solution after you tried to drop any gold. Stannous will show if there are any gold left in solution or if all have precipitated already.

Göran


----------



## g_axelsson (Feb 6, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Martijn said:
> 
> 
> > But later on you dissolved a bit of it in AR, and added H2SO4 to push any lead out as lead oxide.
> ...


Dave, you are correct. It will form lead sulfate, not lead oxide.

Lead sulfate decomposes into SO3 gas and lead oxide when heated above 1000 °C. The lead oxide can then be turned into metal and carbon dioxide if smelted with a carbon source, like flour or carbon.

Another insoluble sulfate compound that we seldom see in refining but I would expect when treating ore with aqua regia is gypsum, CaSO4.
Calcium is commonly found in calcite , and calcite is easily dissolved by HCl, nitric acid or aqua regia. Adding sulfuric acid it will precipitate as a voluminous white powder and is basically insoluble in most liquids.
You can also find calcium in feldspar and many other rock forming minerals so it can be leached out of it in aqua regia.

Göran


----------



## g_axelsson (Feb 6, 2021)

Martijn said:


> Locations for lead oxide mines in Sweden: Screenshot_20210201-195350_Chrome.jpg



That is actually lead sulfide mines.  

I've visited them all. Lead oxide, litharge, is only found as trace amounts in a couple of mines and never in ore quantities. There are a lot of other lead mines (active and closed down) in Sweden. But I wouldn't expect any amount adding up to a large fraction of the heavy concentrate when panning. I would expect that Minner 20 have found pyrite, judging from my knowledge of Swedish geology and the description of the reactions with acid.
A pocket of heavily mineralized pyrite rich ground could easily give a decent response on a metal detector. I've seen it several times in sulfide veins in rocks with my metal detector.

Göran


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 7, 2021)

Hi again,

I definitely don't have the same level of experience and knowledge as the forum members ( yet ) but I as a beginner got already a big frustration after some skeptical comments on my first post that what Igot is absolutely no gold.

I decided to never give up so I made a new trial, this time only with borax.
I took about 100g of sand and melted them with 30g of borax.

I got these tiny little shiny golden balls. I still strongly believe that I got gold in my sand, but I still need help on how to get it out and recover it.

Aj


----------



## jmdlcar (Feb 7, 2021)

What you did it look like Gold to me.

You just gave me a idea so if I ever that kind of sand I will know what to do.


----------



## rickbb (Feb 8, 2021)

If you have free gold in sand, the first step is to use a water floatation method to concentrate the gold and remove the sand. That means panning or sluicing it, depending on how much you have. 

After you have concentrated it down to mostly gold then you can think about melting it and don't use straight borax as a flux. Search for common flux mixes, they are a blend of soda ash, feldspar, etc. 

You don't have to melt the concentrate at all, you can sell it to a refiner after you remove the sand.


----------



## butcher (Feb 8, 2021)

I agree to use gravity methods to concentrate the gold and separate it from the sand.
If what you suspect to be gold is in quartz rock you can crush the rock to powder and then pan it to separate the gold from the quartz sands.

You can learn to pan for the gold or you can make or buy a blue bowl or one of the many other different devices used to separate the gold from the sand or rocks.

If you can crush it to pieces it is not gold. Gold is malleable and will smash flat under a hammer blow.
if you do a streak test scratching the material on the bottom of a porcelain or ceramic cup, and in this test the streak left is brown or black it is not gold, if it is gold, then it will leave a gold mark on the cup.

If during panning or using gravity and water to separate the sand and gold, If what looks like to be gold is lighter than sand or other rocks, and even lighter than any lead bullets in the pan, and if the material floats out of the pan faster than the sand rocks or lead, it is not gold.

After panning the gold, if it will not melt into a metal lump it is most likely not gold, if it is gold it can be melted into a larger piece or clump of metal...


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 8, 2021)

jmdlcar said:


> What you did it look like Gold to me.
> 
> You just gave me a idea so if I ever that kind of sand I will know what to do.



Best of luck.
Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 8, 2021)

rickbb said:


> If you have free gold in sand, the first step is to use a water floatation method to concentrate the gold and remove the sand. That means panning or sluicing it, depending on how much you have.
> 
> After you have concentrated it down to mostly gold then you can think about melting it and don't use straight borax as a flux. Search for common flux mixes, they are a blend of soda ash, feldspar, etc.
> 
> You don't have to melt the concentrate at all, you can sell it to a refiner after you remove the sand.



Thank you for your comment,
I already used the pan and this was what left, since the density was high enough to doubt about PM presence.

Could you please explain to me more about the flux mix you mentioned, why is it better than the borax?

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 8, 2021)

butcher said:


> I agree to use gravity methods to concentrate the gold and separate it from the sand.
> If what you suspect to be gold is in quartz rock you can crush the rock to powder and then pan it to separate the gold from the quartz sands.
> 
> You can learn to pan for the gold or you can make or buy a blue bowl or one of the many other different devices used to separate the gold from the sand or rocks.
> ...



Hi Butcher,
This is not a quartz rock, but it's the borax after melting it with my sand.
I scratched one piece, of the golden balls, on a purity testing stone to get a golden line. Then added on this line a drop of the purity testing acid. The line was still visible after 18k acid, so added a drop of 22k acid ( on another line ) it stayed visible for about 10 minutes. Until now everything seems fine and as it should be, right?

I just need some help now on which way shall I use to get the gold and any other PM from the sand.

Aj


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 8, 2021)

Hi again,

Today's experiment was different and got me confused a bit.

30g of sand, with 120ml HCl and incremental doses of nitric ( had to use about 40ml nitric )
I filtered the solution and then added about 15ml Sulfuric acid and afterwards I used SMB until all the nitric was killed.

I took a drop of the solution and added a drop stannous and got a positive result 3 different times on 3 different tests!!

Is it possible to get a positive result after adding SMB to AR ?
I read that nitric must be killed before testing with Stannous, is this correct ? 
And if this was correct, is there another way of precipitation gold like copperas ? Or I have only to wait for the SMB to take its affect ? 

Thank you 

Aj


----------



## jmdlcar (Feb 8, 2021)

I have rock from Alaska and it weight is 4.5gams it look like it made of sand I don't want to break it up but if I knew it had some Gold inside I would. Anyone have any idea?


----------



## butcher (Feb 8, 2021)

Midas gold detector, these small handheld metal detectors work well for small gold fairly close to the surface.


----------



## butcher (Feb 8, 2021)

Again trying to leach the sand for the gold is a waste of time.


I thought the gold looked funny in the picture you do not normally see natural gold in nature as little balls, I also thought the sand looked like quartz, you were talking about gold in the sand, not gold melted with borax.

Grind the borax pan out the gold and remelt.

Stannous chloride must be able to reduce the gold in the test, high nitric will keep the gold from reducing.
SMB is used to reduce gold free nitric will keep the gold dissolved, or redissolve it back into solution...
Copperas will work better in testing for gold where excess nitric is involved, copperas will reduce nitric.


----------



## rickbb (Feb 15, 2021)

Yes, you must digest all the nitric BEFORE you add SMB or copperas. Neither will drop the gold as long as there is even a tiny bit of nitric. 

I do this with sulfamic acid, this is NOT sulfuric acid. It's a powder, I get it from the local big box home store in the ceramic tile section, it's called ceramic tile cleaner.


----------



## Martijn (Feb 16, 2021)

butcher said:


> Again trying to leach the sand for the gold is a waste of time.
> 
> 
> I thought the gold looked funny in the picture you do not normally see natural gold in nature as little balls, I also thought the sand looked like quartz, you were talking about gold in the sand, not gold melted with borax.
> ...



Butcher, he melted some sand and got a bunch of little golden balls in the sand to prove/test he has gold in the sand. He took a picture of that. It's not a picture of the original sand.
So he basically did a partial fire assay...? More reducing and viscosity increasing flux and a collector metal like lead needed imo if he wants to treat it as an ore, after thorough panning. 

Martijn.


----------



## rickbb (Feb 16, 2021)

Martijn said:


> after thorough panning.
> 
> Martijn.




And therein lies the problem, if it was panned/sluiced thoroughly there wouldn't be so much sand in the first place. 

Which is still my advise, pan it better so you have mostly gold.


----------



## ReedKidd (Feb 16, 2021)

Martijn said:


> You found sand with a heavy yellow colored powdery substance in it. Since you could pan it to a concentrate. Indicating a high density. Much higher than sand and rock.
> No wonder you got exited. I would be.
> 
> But later on you dissolved a bit of it in AR, and added H2SO4 to push any lead out as lead oxide.
> ...


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 16, 2021)

ReedKidd:
Did you want to say something and forgot it?
There is no question or additional information here, as far as I can see.


----------



## nickton (Feb 16, 2021)

You don't need to kill excess nitric for the stannous test to work. It is best to use a piece of paper or cotton swab. I use Q-tips. 

Pouring pregnant solution into a spoon uses too much and with a paper or swab the color change is easier to identify IMO. 

If there is too much nitric your test will still show positive. I guess some people say it won't stay dark as long because the gold goes back into solution. I wasn't aware you needed the gold to go out of solution to show a positive test however. After all you are testing to see if gold is in solution no?


----------



## nickvc (Feb 17, 2021)

I have to say that those suggesting further concentration are spot on in my opinion, there are other processes available which should yield a much better concentrate to work with, perhaps build a sluice using corrugated plastic pipe and research the best angle and water flow to remove more of the sand.
There seems to be gold in your material so if you have access to decent quantities then perhaps now is the time to invest in the tools to recover it, I’m far from an expert at mining so others may well be able to advise better what you need and the costs involved, there may even be cheap options but I’m afraid it’s not my field of experience, I personally think trying to chemically recover the gold using acids is going to be an expensive way forward until you have just gold in your hand or at least 10% gold to sand.
It’s time to do some reading and research into methods to concentrate your values, I’m sure it can be done but it’s either a cost or time researching perhaps even both.


----------



## Martijn (Feb 17, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> ReedKidd:
> Did you want to say something and forgot it?
> There is no question or additional information here, as far as I can see.


He's obviously a man of few words, and I bet he just wanted to repeat my message. :lol: :lol: 8)


----------



## Yggdrasil (Feb 17, 2021)

Maybe we will know in the future, or not.. :lol:


----------



## Minner20 (Feb 21, 2021)

Thank you so much for all the help so far. 

I would like to ask which method is better for my case the sluice or the blue bowl ?


----------



## butcher (Feb 22, 2021)

For an ole prospector like me, an old pie-shaped pan would be the easiest and best tool for the job, a ford truck's hub cap works too if you do not have a gold pan with you...

If you do not wish to learn to pan, you can build a small sluice from wood. or most anything around.

using a wide board bottom, screw, or nail on two short sideboards, lay down a strip of carpet (outdoor carpet or thin plush carpet which you can easily clean sand from) in the bottom of the long open-ended box, or sluice.
you can get a bit fancier and make wood strip riffles, but they are not always needed especially for classified sands or gravel.
Angle the long box on a slope with the bottom in a big tub (to catch anything you wish to run through your sluice more than once. with water running down the slope from a hose or small pump (reusing the tub water if wanted) the sand will be carried down the slopped carpet with the running water, you can adjust the angle if needed, the gold and rocks will travel down while the gold will be sluggish and stick in the carpet, while sand gravel and dirt are washed out of the sluice into your tub if you had the water too fast or slope to steep you can recover the sand make adjustments and repeat to get your gold.

Blue bowls are nice for cleanup for production work used by some people to pan the concentrates from their sluice boxes, or where you do not wish to pan the concentrates by hand, or where their panning skills may suffer, the blue can be made but are much more difficult than a sluice to build, they can normally work better than most sluice's at separating gold from iron ore black sands, but then again that also is depending on the sluice and its purpose or design.


----------



## nickvc (Feb 22, 2021)

Minner20 said:


> Thank you so much for all the help so far.
> 
> I would like to ask which method is better for my case the sluice or the blue bowl ?



Richard has given you a good answer to that question but I would suggest you spend some time watching some of the amateur prospectors on YouTube to get yourself a better understanding of what will work best for your situation, there are loads of ready built sluices some powered that are available but again it depends on your needs and circumstances, if you want to process on site to concentrate your material then perhaps one of the small powered units would be the best choice as you could run plenty of material to create a concentrate which might then need further concentration at home using another device if necessary.
I think the simple answer to your question is there is no one answer but many depending on circumstances and the amount of money you can afford to spend or on your ability to make your own equipment.


----------



## endrodwicahyonoldt (Mar 9, 2022)

butcher said:


> I agree to use gravity methods to concentrate the gold and separate it from the sand.
> If what you suspect to be gold is in quartz rock you can crush the rock to powder and then pan it to separate the gold from the quartz sands.
> 
> You can learn to pan for the gold or you can make or buy a blue bowl or one of the many other different devices used to separate the gold from the sand or rocks.
> ...


thank you for the knowledge sir, it makes sense and is easy to understand


----------



## shrewdly (Apr 24, 2022)

jmdlcar said:


> I would like to pan for Gold but in Ohio I don't think there is no place to do it that I know of.


Hi jdlcar: Do not despair. Any river will have gold in it somewhere. I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, on the banks of the North Saskatchewan river. It's a large, slow moving river in the middle of the bald prairie. I have friends who every summer routinely recover an ounce or two, sometimes more from the river. If you are new to panning, you should read Butcher's explaination on how to pan. It's in this same thread.


----------



## Edlin (Apr 26, 2022)

Minner20 said:


> Hi guys
> Forgive my ignorant question but I'm still learning from the forum and from Hoke's book.
> 
> I have a metal detector and by using it I got a good amount of soil that contains precious metals ( strongly believe it's gold only )
> ...


If you do have enough gold in your sand to see it, then panning or some other form of gravity separation should work. It does look like you have a lot of sand left in that finishing pan, which would make it difficult to see any gold.


----------

