# 1st attemp



## brafforda (Feb 10, 2012)

just wanted to say that thanks to all the wonderful people and great knowledge on this forum i am making my first attempt at ap on a small test batch of fingers im starting off small incase i dont get it just right but thanks to the many hours ive spent reading hokes and reading on this forum i have faith that it will be fine. its been about an hour and the solution is dark green and i allready have foils loose so i hope all is well will keep posted on my progress thanks again :lol:


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## brafforda (Feb 10, 2012)

man this is addictive the more foils a see loose in the solution the more it makes wanna start another bigger batch...but i think ill wait till the whole process is over before starting another....


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## Geo (Feb 10, 2012)

when did you start what you have?


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## brafforda (Feb 10, 2012)

started it about 3:30 and just now checked and stirred it again can see a few foils in the solution its a dark green color and i have a fish tank bubbler in it just put a small handfull of fingers in a small glass container i used enough hydrochloric acid to cover about an inch over them and two caps of 3% hydrogine peroxide in it.... besides that dont know what else to do but wait and try to be patient...... lol any tips would be greatly appriciated


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## Geo (Feb 10, 2012)

nope. just give it some time.


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## brafforda (Feb 11, 2012)

i love this feeling..... looking at my first foils and the feeling that it gives me to know all the research is paying off.... you guys are the greatest...... thanks again


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## Anonymous (Feb 11, 2012)

brafforda said:


> i love this feeling.....


If you are this excited now,I can't wait to see you in a few months.
You should check out some of the posts from Kadriver.He started from humble beginnings,now he is making small bars.He mostly refines jewelry,but gold is gold,no matter where you recover it from.


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## brafforda (Feb 11, 2012)

i have saved alot of material mostly computers(50-60) and cell phones(20-25) i have some jewelry scrap not much...will heating ap speed things up or hurt the process ive read it both ways?


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## kuma (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi chief , how are tricks?
I hope your well!



brafforda said:


> ...will heating ap speed things up or hurt the process ive read it both ways?



From what I know , if theres not too much peroxide present it will speed up the reaction but it shouldn't pose too much of a problem.
If there's too much peroxide present I believe that you stand a very good chance of dissolving your gold , it won't be unrecoverable but it'll be a pain in the proverbial compared to just having a little patience and letting the reaction just take it's time at ambient temperature.
If I'm wrong on any of this I will be called out chief , please bear in mind that I'm a *noob* and I'm just talking from what I think I remember through studying the forum , :roll: 
All the best with it , and kind regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:


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## brafforda (Feb 11, 2012)

the reason i ask is we have weird weather its 40 and 50 degrees during the day and 10 at night....i wanted to start another bigger batch and thought about heating the solution with a hot plate at night would this be a bad idea?


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## Geo (Feb 11, 2012)

AP should be done in a glass or plastic container, how would you heat a plastic bucket with a hot plate?

the only concern would be keep the solution hydrated. if its that cold and you heat the solution it will evaporate pretty quickly, so check on it daily and add either a little warm water or a little more hcl, if you use warm water it should be added slowly to prevent copper(II) chloride from forming.


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## lazersteve (Feb 11, 2012)

Heat is not required unless your AP is frozen. Ralph (Palladium) has reported that his AP worked better in the cold a few years back.

Geo, Copper I chloride is what forms when the AP gets saturated, copper II chloride is water soluble and most desireable in the mix. I guess if the solution gets dehydrated it is possible for CuCl and CuCl2 to crystalize out depending on pH and other factors.

Steve


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## Geo (Feb 11, 2012)

thanks steve. i should have looked at my note book before posting.


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## brafforda (Feb 12, 2012)

i just started my big batch i decided against heating it as i hope the fish tank airiator should keep it from freezing i really appriciate the way you guys help anyone and i am learning alot from you....you guys are my heroes thanks again :lol:


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## Palladium (Feb 12, 2012)

I love the cold for my ap. With just a regular air supply like a fish bubbler i do find that it is slow. The chemical etch rate will decrease with temperature. The way to control the drop i have found is with increased air supply volume, the more the better. Increased air volume will also cause more solution to circulate which will in turn lead to more kinetic reactions at the surface which equals= Faster etch rates.


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## brafforda (Feb 13, 2012)

thanks for the tips.... i love to learn about this or anything. i just checked my bigger batch i started yesterday all is going good. cant wait to i save up enough foils to refine with hydrochloric acid clorox solution and then try my hand at melting that first button.


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## artart47 (Feb 13, 2012)

Hi brafforda!
Welcome to the forum! If you wan't, check out my posts. I have one thread "how to recover my foils after AP" I try to make it a continuing update of my progress from a scared nooby to my current state of ignorance. It's shocking how much you will learn in a few months!
There is a pic of my first batch of foils, my first glass baking pan with dirty gold chloride, my first drop of not so clean gold powder, last night, I finally wieghed my high quality powder after a second refining it dropped like a rock. Washed and dried. 16grams! Ready to melt!
There you'll be able to read all the help responces I got at each step from the great members of this forum 
Enjoy!
artart47


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## brafforda (Feb 14, 2012)

I have one thread "how to recover my foils after AP" 
thanks artart your thread was a really good read i've read it more than once over the last few weeks its people like you and harold, lazer steve, mic, palladaum, geo, and a'lot of others on this forum that i look up to.. and it not just them but everyone on this forum that helps people and has accomplished so much i hope someday i can be known as someone that helps others with my own accomplishments i will try my very best to help anyone in any and every way i possibly can. i love reading and learning the knowledge on this forum and would condsider it a great honor to one day be a part of it


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## joem (Feb 14, 2012)

brafforda said:


> the reason i ask is we have weird weather its 40 and 50 degrees during the day and 10 at night....i wanted to start another bigger batch and thought about heating the solution with a hot plate at night would this be a bad idea?



check out my a/p attempt-lots of answers there
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=9862


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## artart47 (Feb 15, 2012)

Brafforda....
You're a part of it now! 
Thanks for the compliment, feels great to know others are benefiting from what I've posted!
I believe I ran about 14lbs of fingers and a small batch of the gold flecks that I collected from an experiment process of plated pins.
It resulted in about 16 grams refined gold powder. I know there is more disolved gold in my waste bucket and in filter papers I will process later. As soon as I get the melting dishes I ordered from Lazersteve I post the melt pics and my first gold button!
Also, there was something earlier about foils and temps, I have foils going now in the garage and it's in the 20's and 30's here. They're doing fine! just a little slower. they are right, air and adgitation speed things up.
artart47


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## brafforda (Feb 15, 2012)

wow i hope to have that much gold powder one day i only have a couple pounds of fingers i'm running maybe 1/2 pound at a time and just gonna keep saving my foils till i get a sufficient amount before i dissolve in acid clorox solution and get my first powder and save powder till i get enough for my first button... i cant wait till you get your button posted im like a kid in a candy store looking at other peoples success and very happy for them. im gonna start trying to refine my pins next i have alot of them from connecting pins on motherboards to processor pins just haven't made my mind up which methods im gonna use so im gonna do a'lot of test first while i continue to collect more material


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## lazersteve (Feb 15, 2012)

I spent a little time consolidating some good Acid Peroxide threads here:

Acid Peroixde Q & A

If you read this entire thread and the links therein, you should be 100% up to speed on the AP process.

Steve


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## brafforda (Feb 15, 2012)

yes and thank you lazersteve that is where a majority of my notes have come from.... "Your The Man" its my hope to refine my first bar from the knowledge you and so many others have put in this forum i spend at least an hour or two a day reading learning and taking notes and so far so good haven't run into any problems yet. I'm sure i will though sooner or later


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## brafforda (Feb 15, 2012)

i was a wondering some of you guys opinions on refining pins from what ive read the reverse plating cell is best and some say ap but i was thinking i read that if the pins were not copper cored that would not work im still reading on the subject i was just wandering what others think about it. thanks a lot


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## niteliteone (Feb 16, 2012)

brafforda said:


> i was a wondering some of you guys opinions on refining pins from what ive read the reverse plating cell is best and some say ap but i was thinking i read that if the pins were not copper cored that would not work im still reading on the subject i was just wandering what others think about it. thanks a lot



Here is my take on this.
With the sulfuric cell You spend time monitoring the process. Then you spend time allowing the solution to settle. 
After it settles then you have to pour off the clean acid from the saturated acid. This clean acid is ready to reuse. The saturated acid goes for further separation.
You add the saturated acid to 5 times its volume of water and stir well. Then you let settle. After settling you pour off most of the acid/water mix into a container and evaporate off the water. 
Leaving you with the concentrated sulfuric acid which is added to the original acid ready to reuse for further processing of more pins.
Now you take your concentrated gold powder recovered from the acid solution and further rinse it, allowing to settle well between rinse and decant steps until the rinse water is clear of all color other than the black gold powder.
Then use the refining process of your choice to finish the job. (HCL/Clorox or AR)

In my experience this process takes several days (3-5) of my working with the different steps. Also I am able to recover and reuse use about 95% of the acid and the rest of the acid can go down the drain. So very little waste comes from this recovery process.

With the AP process you put the pins in a container with an air stone at the bottom then add the HCl to cover the pins. Turn on the air and then add a small amount of peroxide to the HCl. Cover the pot with a lid that will drip any splashed acid back into the container and let it sit (maybe stir once or twice a day) until all the pins have dissolved. Leaving behind all the gold shells.
Decant off all the acid solution. Then rinse the shells, foils and flakes that remain from the pins until the rinse water is clear of all color other than the gold.
Then use the refining process of your choice to finish the job. (HCL/Clorox or AR)

In my experience this process takes a few days (2-3) of my working with the material. I am able to save the AP solution for further pin processing or disposal depending on usability(contamination) of solution. This solution is either saved in a safe manor or disposed of using the proper process. Either way you have a lot more waste to deal with since you also have the rinse water that must be treated before disposal.

To sum up:
With sulfuric cell you spend more time but have less waste.
With AP method you spend less time but have more waste.
Now you need to figure out which one of these processes will work with the work space and time you have.

Hope this helps.
Tom C.


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## brafforda (Feb 16, 2012)

niteliteone said:


> brafforda said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my take on this.
> ...


 

thanks a lot everyone's info is appreciated


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