# Shaker Tables?



## gaurav_347 (Aug 9, 2019)

Hello All,

So as of now we are processing low grade pcb boards. Roughly 70 tons per month. We depopulate them and segrate different components based on their base metal and precous metal content. We recover copper, aluminum, steel/iron/ solder/ gold, silver and Palladium.

We are looking to cut down our expneses on smelting. A lot of expenses are going towards recovering the precious metals. We are generating rougly 150 kgs of fine incinerated Ash from 1 ton everyday.

Does anybody have any experience with shaker tables here or any other way of concentrating this material. Manual labour is not an option as these quantities will increase gradually.

Thank you 
Gaurav


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## kurtak (Aug 9, 2019)

You might want to look at this companies tables as well as some of their other equipment

They also have some videos using their equipment for processing E waste (circuit boards)


:arrow: https://mbmmllc.com/

Kurt


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## rickzeien (Aug 9, 2019)

kurtak said:


> You might want to look at this companies tables as well as some of their other equipment
> 
> They also have some videos using their equipment for processing E waste (circuit boards)
> 
> ...


I have on from mbmmllc. I am using it right now to clean up 15000 pounds of stainless steel powder that is contaminated with dust and some rust flakes from the drums it was stored in. 

Doing a great job. Can't imagine why it wouldn't clean up your ash. Have not tried it on ash yet. 

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## gaurav_347 (Aug 9, 2019)

My first option would be the table from Jason (mbmmllc). But it's a little out of the budget due to 30 % duties plus additonal charges for the transportation. I was looking at Chinese options too but I don't know how it might perform for such ash as the gold is quite fine . The Chinese tables are available on alibaba for 1000usd with duties and transport where as mbmm tables (2x4) are for 12000 usd with duties and transport to our location. I have got more than 50 companies and counting which are constantly messaging me and sending me quotations from Alibaba due to one query for shaker table. I have no clue about shaker tables or how they perform. The Chinese ssupliers are promising that their tables can concentrate the gold upto 400 mesh.


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## gaurav_347 (Aug 9, 2019)

rickzeien said:


> kurtak said:
> 
> 
> > You might want to look at this companies tables as well as some of their other equipment
> ...




Can you tell me what size are you using? Also can you attach few pictures of the separation . That would be really helpful.

Thanks


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## rickzeien (Aug 9, 2019)

gaurav_347 said:


> rickzeien said:
> 
> 
> > kurtak said:
> ...


Will do it as soon as I am running it again. I am kinda working it in between other projects. Should be in the next few days.

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## 4metals (Aug 9, 2019)

Have you ever had an assay run on the powders to know what it contains? Tables don't take out super fine particles effectively so you need to figure out what you are feeding onto a table vs what comes off the table to determine effectiveness. 

When I shipped powder from incineration of PC boards (30 years ago) I milled them to -40 mesh and screened out all of the oversize which was considered the metallic fraction. The powders were then shipped in bulk as prepared sweeps. They were always payable but scrap circuit boards from 30 years ago likely were richer in PM's than circuitry of today.


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## rickzeien (Aug 9, 2019)

gaurav_347 said:


> rickzeien said:
> 
> 
> > kurtak said:
> ...


Here is a video of an mbmmllc customer in Poland that does about a hundred tons of low grade PCB. He does not incinerate first. He shreds and then does separation on his tables. Then he plans to process the tailings with pyrolysis. 

https://youtu.be/3Y-BsgYCpSA

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## anachronism (Aug 9, 2019)

You don't need to incinerate with this process. It actually makes the refineries job harder and costs you money.


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## gaurav_347 (Aug 10, 2019)

Dear All, 

Let me explain you all as to what we do. We have an automatic circuit board depopulation machine which depopulates the boards. We can feed in 300 kgs in an hour to depoplate all the components from the boards. The solder is collected in the tray beneath this machine. The machine runs on lpg gas. It has an automatic cutoff sensor which shuts down when it reaches the desired temperature to start melting off the solder and starts again when the temperature goes below the set point . We do not incinerate the whole boards. We sort out components based on their base metal and precious metal content. The blank boards are run through our pcb recycling machine to separate the copper from the epoxy( check my older posts). Copper and aluminum containing components are sold to respective metal recovery industries. The remaining components are incinerated, ball milled and screened to - 40mesh. This is the Ash that we need to process on the shaker table. As of now we are smelting these ashes as it is with fluxes and lead as the collector metal followed by cupellation. We have done an assay of these ashes several times . We are averaging out between 150 to 200 mili grams of gold per kg. We want to concentrate these ashes so that our smelt load decreases. 

I hope this helps. 

Thank you


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## rickzeien (Aug 10, 2019)

gaurav_347 said:


> Dear All,
> 
> Let me explain you all as to what we do. We an automatic circuit board depopulation machine which depopulates the boards. We can feed in 300 kgs in an hour to depoplate all the components from the boards. The solder is collected in the tray beneath this machine. The machine runs on lpg gas. It has an automatic cutoff sensor which shuts down when it reaches the desired temperature to start melting off the solder and starts again when the temperature goes below the set point . We do not incinerate the whole boards. We sort out components based on their base metal and precious metal content. The blank boards are run through our pcb recycling machine to separate the copper from the epoxy( check my older posts). Copper and aluminum containing components are sold to respective metal recovery industries. The remaining components are incinerated, ball milled and screened to - 40mesh. This is the Ash that we need to process on the shaker table. As of now we are smelting these ashes as it is with fluxes and lead as the collector metal followed by cupellation. We have done an assay of these ashes several times . We are averaging out between 150 to 200 mili grams of gold per kg. We want to concentrate these ashes so that our smelt load decreases.
> 
> ...


"We an automatic circuit board depopulation machine which depopulates the boards. "

Can you post pictures and mor details for the depopulation machine?

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## gaurav_347 (Aug 10, 2019)

rickzeien said:


> gaurav_347 said:
> 
> 
> > Dear All,
> ...



Sorry for the grammatical mistake. Just youtube for pcb dismantling machine. You will understand what I was talking about!


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## kurtak (Aug 11, 2019)

gaurav_347 said:


> My first option would be the table from Jason (mbmmllc). But it's a little out of the budget due to 30 % duties plus additonal charges for the transportation. I was looking at Chinese options too but I don't know how it might perform for such ash as the gold is quite fine . The Chinese tables are available on alibaba for 1000usd with duties and transport where as mbmm tables (2x4) are for 12000 usd with duties and transport to our location. I have got more than 50 companies and counting which are constantly messaging me and sending me quotations from Alibaba due to one query for shaker table. I have no clue about shaker tables or how they perform. The Chinese ssupliers are promising that their tables can concentrate the gold upto 400 mesh.



gaurav

Lets start here --- there is an old saying - you get what you pay for - that is especially true when it comes to shaker tables --- shaker tables are made to recover VERY fine gold - therefore they NEED to run VERY smooth in their back & forth motion - if they have any bump &/or jerk at each end of the back & forth motion that bump & jerk can & will likely cause the very fine gold to lift "just a bit" off the table - when that happens it is possible that "some" of the gold can wash out of the groove (& therefore wash out into the tailings) instead of stay in the groove (most of the gold will stay in the groove - but it is possible that "some" may wash out)

That said - having looked at some of the tables made in China on alibaba from - they "look" very poorly engineered --- maybe its just me but I personally would not trust the quality of China made tables --- again - maybe its just me but China has a reputation for poor quality in their products & as well poor customer service/support in dealing with their customers after the customer has bought the product


Example; - a few years ago a friend of mine bought a China made XRF --- it turned out to be a TOTAL piece of junk & he was not able to get customer serve in order to get it to work - in the end it amounted to the same thing as throwing his money in the trash can



> The Chinese tables are available on alibaba for 1000usd with duties and transport where as mbmm tables (2x4) are for 12000 usd with duties and



I would NEVER trust a piece of equipment that CLAMES to do the same job of a $12,000 piece of equipment at a price of only $1,000 



> So as of now we are processing low grade pcb boards. Roughly 70 tons per month ------ We are generating rougly 150 kgs of fine incinerated Ash from 1 ton everyday



150 kgs of ash per day from 1 ton boards per day times 30 days per month = 4,500 kgs per month (or 9,900 pounds ash per month)

That is a LOT of ash --- with a "good" table you should be able to concentrate your ash to between 10% - 5 % --- that means you can reduce the amount of ash you are currently smelting from 4,500 kgs per month to around 450 - 225 kgs

However - you are not going to be able to do that on a 2 X 4 table --- you will need a bigger table - at least a 4 X 8 table if not a 5 X 12 table (or maybe 2 - 4 X 8 tables --- start with one & if need be add a second)

And that is not the end of it --- you can't just buy a table set it on the ground & run it --- it needs to be properly "set up" (this is where good customer service comes into play) it needs to be hard mounted (bolted to a concrete slab) so you don't get vibration/bump/or jerk &/or so it doesn't go out of its plumb/level setting once properly plumbed/leveled

Things that affect how well a table works are vibration, bump or jerk, slope (plumb/level) water flow, particle feed size &/or feed rate (over loading the table)

I have already talked about vibration, bump or jerk

If the slope (plumb/level) is not properly set it can cause one of 2 things to happen --- ether it will cause what you want to wash away - to load up in the grooves - thereby allowing gold to wash over once the grooves are loaded with what should be washing away --- or it can cause gold to wash over the groves along with what you want to wash away

improper water flow has the same effect as explained concerning slope

Feed rate (over loading can cause the same problems as explained above)

Particle size is VERY important due to smaller particles bumping into larger particles which in turn cause's the smaller particles to be lifted & wash out - you can't expect 400 mesh particles to stay in the groove with material being feed to the table that also has particles as large as 40 mesh - you need the particle size to be more similar in size - meaning your ash really needs to be sifted to 80 - 100 mesh

Sifting to 80 mesh has worked well for me

Bottom line - in my opinion - for the amount of material you are running - invest in GOOD equipment to start with & buy from someone that will back it up with GOOD customer service --- it will pay off in the "long run" :!: 

Kurt


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## gaurav_347 (Aug 11, 2019)

kurtak said:


> gaurav_347 said:
> 
> 
> > My first option would be the table from Jason (mbmmllc). But it's a little out of the budget due to 30 % duties plus additonal charges for the transportation. I was looking at Chinese options too but I don't know how it might perform for such ash as the gold is quite fine . The Chinese tables are available on alibaba for 1000usd with duties and transport where as mbmm tables (2x4) are for 12000 usd with duties and transport to our location. I have got more than 50 companies and counting which are constantly messaging me and sending me quotations from Alibaba due to one query for shaker table. I have no clue about shaker tables or how they perform. The Chinese ssupliers are promising that their tables can concentrate the gold upto 400 mesh.
> ...




Wow Kurtak! You explained it so well. Thank you so much for your reply. As of now investing in an expensive setup is not possible for a few months as we are doing upgrades at our existing facility. We are a little tight on the budget as of now. 

Regarding the Chinese suppliers we have a few machines from them which haven't given us any trouble in the last 4 years of operations. I usually like to choose companies based in China on the years of experience they have had making their products. I also like to talk to their existing customers who are using their products. I have short listed a few companies who have been selling shaker tables all over the globe from over 20 years plus. I have found 3 vendors out of 55 plus vendors. I will post a few pictures for your reference of these shaker tables. Thank you for all the help once again.


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## glorycloud (Aug 11, 2019)

*"If the slop (plumb/level)"*

I think that you may mean "slope" and not "slop". The these two words
have distinctly different meanings and may cause confusion to non English
speakers using translation software.


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## rickzeien (Aug 11, 2019)

First let me say, I am not advocating forny particular supplier of shaker tables.

You have a few month window to select as supplier. I know mbmmllc has done trials for prospective customers. 

Find as few suppliers and have them run trials of a representative sample of the ash yo do. (I know Kurt suggested screening your ash as to remove the oversized particles) Ask your suppliers what size range works best on their tables. 

Send each candidate samples and have them return the various fractions including the tailing. 

Good luck in your search.



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## gaurav_347 (Aug 11, 2019)

rickzeien said:


> First let me say, I am not advocating forny particular supplier of shaker tables.
> 
> You have a few month window to select as supplier. I know mbmmllc has done trials for prospective customers.
> 
> ...



Dear Rickzeien,

All our ashes are screened to less than 200 mesh. The Chinese suppliers have tables which can process such fine ashes. I will post a few pics detailing the model numbers and their ash size in mm that the table can process. 

Thank you!


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## rickzeien (Aug 11, 2019)

While you are screening to 200 mesh minus, many particles will be much less than the screen size. 

Your charts seems to indicate that 200 mesh is the smallest feed size. 

I would still recommend having trial test done to confirm you will get satisfactory separation. 

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## kurtak (Aug 12, 2019)

glorycloud said:


> *"If the slop (plumb/level)"*
> 
> I think that you may mean "slope" and not "slop". The these two words
> have distinctly different meanings and may cause confusion to non English
> speakers using translation software.



:lol: Sometimes the fingers work faster then this old brain  

just edited it to fix it - thanks for pointing it out

Kurt


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## gaurav_347 (Aug 12, 2019)

rickzeien said:


> While you are screening to 200 mesh minus, many particles will be much less than the screen size.
> 
> Your charts seems to indicate that 200 mesh is the smallest feed size.
> 
> ...



Based on your advice I have contacted the short listed vendors to run our sample on their shaker table. They will get back to me with the details tomorrow as to how we can proceed ahead doing this. If their tables work well then we will opt for one of them. If not then we will be buying a mbmmllc shaker table, probably the 2x4 table for starters and later invest in a bigger table once the capacity increases. 
Thank you for your advice! Are there any other companies in the USA manufacturing quality shaker tables? If so who are they? I would love to do more research on this topic. 

Thanks & Regards
Gaurav


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## rickzeien (Aug 12, 2019)

Not sure. I purchased mine used and was able to test it for myself before I purchased. 

I would also send a sample to mbmmllc for testing prior to purchase. It is a big investment and you want to be sure it is fit for your application. 

Don't forget to anylise or assay the tailings for any residual value. 

Best of luck and keep us all posted on your progress. 

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## gaurav_347 (Aug 12, 2019)

rickzeien said:


> Not sure. I purchased mine used and was able to test it for myself before I purchased.
> 
> I would also send a sample to mbmmllc for testing prior to purchase. It is a big investment and you want to be sure it is fit for your application.
> 
> ...



Want to sell it once you are done cleaning up the steel? Lol


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## rickzeien (Aug 12, 2019)

I only took in the ss powder to clean up to pay for the table. 

If it starts gathering cob webs I might. LOL

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## kernels (Aug 12, 2019)

+1 for the message above, please let us know how the sample goes on the tables you test and let us know how the table goes once you have it installed.


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## gaurav_347 (Aug 15, 2019)

Hello All, 

I have another confusion related to this subject. Do bigger shaker tables give better recovery than smaller shaker tables? The bigger shaker tables have more groves/slots than smaller (138 & 60 respectively). The big table is 4.2 meter long and the small table is 2 meter long. I am being suggested that both will do the job to concentrate the material by the vendors back in China. I can't send samples to both as shipping is pretty expensive.

Thank you!


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