# Gold tipped ribbon cables and gold on mylars



## 1mysurveymail (Jul 31, 2021)

Hello. Has anyone figured out an easy way to recover the gold from computer and monitor cables/mylars lije this?



I was thinking AP would take a long time because the boards from monitors take a lot longer in AP than RAM fingers and pins.

Maybe HCl + Bleach?


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## Martijn (Aug 1, 2021)

Only the ends are plated. Cut them off and use AP. 
Works fine.


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## galenrog (Aug 1, 2021)

Martijn said:


> Only the ends are plated. Cut them off and use AP.
> Works fine.



Yep


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 1, 2021)

And don't expect much.

Dave


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## 1mysurveymail (Aug 5, 2021)

Thanks y'all. I just let the ribbon shown in the photo soak in HCl + bleach for 20 minutes...and it removed the "bulk" of the gold. Just an experiment in parallel before dissolving some foils. So that worked. I expect the yield to be extraordinarily low, but it was just testing a theory. Next time, before I run some foils through I will do a larger batch of those Au tipped ribbons. 

Just as a corollary, since the bulk of these ribbons came from monitors, I would note that the boards in monitors to which these ribbons attach (do have Au fingers), but take way too long in AP (even with a bubbler and temps in the high 80's). So I will get out my knife edged "paper cutter" and trim them like I do RAM chips, and dunk them in HCl + bleach. Hopefully this will expedite the recovery.

Hope this helps some E-miner.

Cheers


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## Martijn (Aug 5, 2021)

Your dissolved gold will cement out on copper trace ends underneath the coating if you don't cut the ends off and digest all copper completely. You will loose gold that way.


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## dpgold (Apr 28, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Your dissolved gold will cement out on copper trace ends underneath the coating if you don't cut the ends off and digest all copper completely. You will loose gold that way.


Hi, I put some gold contacts from ribbons in 55 percent HCL, about 2 liters and 500ml H202, it has been 20 days and I see few finger dissolved and some very small flakes floating. Most of contacts did not come loose. What should I do? Very few warm days


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## Yggdrasil (Apr 28, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Hi, I put some gold contacts from ribbons in 55 percent HCL, about 2 liters and 500ml H202, it has been 20 days and I see few finger dissolved and some very small flakes floating. Most of contacts did not come loose. What should I do? Very few warm days


If you used a cap or two with H2O2 and air bubbling in stead. It would be cheaper and it creates turbulence that may dislodge the fouls. It may also be faster.
To loosen the foils you may need to use a water spray bottle.


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## Shark (Apr 28, 2022)

How many pounds will you be running per batch?


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## Alondro (Apr 28, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> If you used a cap or two with H2O2 and air bubbling in stead. It would be cheaper and it creates turbulence that may dislodge the fouls. It may also be faster.
> To loosen the foils you may need to use a water spray bottle.


I'm lucky enough to have a lab-grade hot plate. I just let my beaker of fingers in HCl sit there just at the boiling point for hours at a time, then cool, then reheat, then cool. Over and over. This seems to work great for getting the foils to fall off. It alters the solubility of various compounds over and over, facilitating the removal of the unreactive gold from the base metal substrate. 

It's still a slow process, but a very thorough one. I'm almost done with a 'big' batch of a pound of fingers. Also, adding just a little bit of copper chloride acid soln from previous batches right at the beginning jumpstarts the process. The dilute copper chloride helps the acid begin to attack the base metal. This has to do with distortions in the electron arrangement in the ionic geometry of copper(II) chloride... but it's really complicated. One d-electron is shoved out of its assumed position and gains more capacity for redox reactions. It basically means the compound is a mild oxidant. Also, it makes the compound somewhat paramagnetic, and thus it can induce self-electrolysis in the correct conditions in a self-contained, self-generating electrical circuit. A few coils of wire around an iron and copper electrodes connected by said wire in a copper chloride solution with very rapidly reduce all the copper in the solution, and not just on the iron! The copper electrode too will grow very elaborate crystals.


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## Martijn (Apr 29, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Hi, I put some gold contacts from ribbons in 55 percent HCL, about 2 liters and 500ml H202, it has been 20 days and I see few finger dissolved and some very small flakes floating. Most of contacts did not come loose. What should I do? Very few warm days


How much ribbons did you put in? With 2 L HCl I'm guessing a lot. Was this your first attempt at AP? 
As Yggdrasil suggested, did you use an air bubbler? 
@Alondro, very interesting, but way over most people's head imo. 
I like you in depth analysis and chemical knowledge. But in the end chemistry is all give or take electrons and mix the ions up to change an element or compound. 
Everything is chemistry. And electric. Blew my mind realizing that years ago. 

My AP is by now a mix of cupric and ferric chlorides and more dissolved metals in there making it a 'dissolve it all' soup, hungry for more metal salts. 
The foils rinse to the bottom bucket in time as i lift and shake the top perforated bucket every other week or so. 
i just reuse the AP and add a bit of HCl when any CuCl1 is still forming at the end of a batch. 
Adding a bit of CuCl2 to fresh HCl for each new batch is basically starting over. You need a lot of CuCl2 to have a fast digestion. 
And with fast digestion, you also need fast conversion from CuCl1 to CuCl2 with oxygen. It's a fine balance. And still takes time. 
To heat a beaker of AP for days at boiling point is just another cut on your profits imo. 

Martijn.


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

I had a few kilos of ribbons ends, I covered them with HCL and after a few days seeing little progress I added the H2O2. I am trying to understand chemistry and also realized how fascinating is but I am sorry now for these days in school where I should have paid attention to my chemistry teacher instead of making doodles. I started to like chemistry but do not understand it very well, something does not click yet there. I understand it in theory but can't visualize it so it is not clear to me yet


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

Shark said:


> How many pounds will you be running per batch?


I have put it all in about 6 pounds


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

Shark said:


> How many pounds will you be running per batch?


I have put in about 5 or 6 pounds, I thought I can always change it to AR later by adding some nitric but if the foils come of I can reuse the solution. Now because I have added some H2O2 not sure how to deal with it. It has been 21 days now


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## Martijn (Apr 29, 2022)

Ok. I guess this is your first batch. 
Take one or a couple ribbons and put them in AP with an air bubbler, without H202, and watch and learn.
Once that works, and you know how to rinse, decant, filter, wash, etc. Then scale up a bit and get more experience. Gold will not only be as clean big foils in there. You will have some powder or tiny flakes. 

Once your process and you are tuned in, go for full batches. 
Keep it small to observe better and learn.

Have you read this thread:?








Acid Peroxide Process Information Thread Q & A's


The purpose of this thread is to begin to consolidate the vast amount of questions and answers related to the Acid Peroxide (aka AP) recovery process. First and foremost, the name for the process, Acid Peroxide is a misnomer as the active ingredient is actually copper II chloride (CuCl2), so it...




goldrefiningforum.com




H2O2 with HCl can dissolve gold. Dissolved gold will cement out on base metals. 
Do not make AR from dirty HCl. (AP) 
Trash in trash out. 
Take you time to learn and ask.


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Ok. I guess this is your first batch.
> Take one or a couple ribbons and put them in AP with an air bubbler, without H202, and watch and learn.
> Once that works, and you know how to rinse, decant, filter, wash, etc. Then scale up a bit and get more experience. Gold will not only be as clean big foils in there. You will have some powder or tiny flakes.
> 
> ...


thank you, yes this is my first try, I heard that H202 can dissolve gold, even if it is 3 percent concentration? What can I do now to prevent gold to cement on base metals?


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## Martijn (Apr 29, 2022)

No need to prevent that. Let it cement out and collect with the foils. 
Prevent the dissolving of more gold by not adding peroxide anymore.


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## rickbb (Apr 29, 2022)

Trim everything down to just the gold plating. I process these in with all my plated escrap, fingers, boards, etc. in AP. Then put the clean, well washed flakes in Hcl/bleach.

And as been said, don't expect much, these kinds of things have extremely thing plating. I mean microscopely thin. As in a few atoms thin.


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

Martijn said:


> No need to prevent that. Let it cement out and collect with the foils.
> Prevent the dissolving of more gold by not adding peroxide anymore.


After I filter the foils out could I try to precipitate any dissolved gold in it by SMB?


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## dpgold (Apr 29, 2022)

dpgold said:


> thank you, yes this is my first try, I heard that H202 can dissolve gold, even if it is 3 percent concentration? What can I do now to prevent gold to cement on base metals?


"H2O2 with HCl can dissolve gold. Dissolved gold will cement out on base metals." This means that if gold dissolves in HCL Peroxide solution the copper in the solution will precipitate the gold back out of the solution?


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## Shark (Apr 29, 2022)

Stannous chloride is your friend.


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## Yggdrasil (Apr 29, 2022)

dpgold said:


> "H2O2 with HCl can dissolve gold. Dissolved gold will cement out on base metals." This means that if gold dissolves in HCL Peroxide solution the copper in the solution will precipitate the gold back out of the solution?


Correct


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Shark said:


> Stannous chloride is your friend.


Hi, if I don't have stannous chloride and I only have a roll of Stanium 97 percent and 3 percent copper could I make stannous solution with it and HCL ? Any experience with that?


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## Yggdrasil (Apr 30, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Hi, if I don't have stannous chloride and I only have a roll of Stanium 97 percent and 3 percent copper could I make stannous solution with it and HCL ? Any experience with that?


There are no such thing as Stanium as far as I know, unless someone has named something Stanium. Stannous Chloride is Tin (Sn) dissolved in HCl.
You need to get your names and conventions correct when you are talking about chemicals.


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> There are no such thing as Stanium as far as I know, unless someone has named something Stanium. Stannous Chloride is Tin (Sn) dissolved in HCl.
> You need to get your names and conventions correct when you are talking about chemicals.


Yes, I meant Tin solid because I saw a crystal form. Would it be ok to use that 97 percent with 3 percent copper to make the solution?


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## Yggdrasil (Apr 30, 2022)

You can of course buy crystalline Stannous Chloride, but for our use it is not necessary.
Why do you want copper in it?
It will probably work but why add something you do not need?
Where do the Idea of copper come from?
Do you have copper alloyed Tin is that it?
I'm just a bit baffled.


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## kurtak (Apr 30, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You can of course buy crystalline Stannous Chloride, but for our use it is not necessary.
> Why do you want copper in it?
> It will probably work but why add something you do not need?
> Where do the Idea of copper come from?
> ...


I believe here is talking about using 97% tin 3% copper solder for making his stannous

IF (the BIG IF) that is the case - yes it will work for making stannous --- the HCl should dissolve the tin & leave the copper as a black powder

Even IF (the BIG IF again) the HCl should dissolve that little bit of copper it won't effect the results of the stannous test --- Edit to add; - after all we test solutions all the time that have LOTS of copper in them 

I have always used the 95% tin 5% antimony solder for making my stannous

Kurt


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## Shark (Apr 30, 2022)

I use tin fishing sinkers often and I have a large roll of 95/5 Tin antimony solder. Both work well and I used to run those cable ends, when trimmed, straight into AR. The copper content never stopped either alloy from detecting gold in solution. As mentioned don’t expect much from them other than a good learning experience.


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## kurtak (Apr 30, 2022)

Alondro said:


> Also, adding just a little bit of copper chloride acid soln from previous batches right at the beginning jumpstarts the process. The dilute copper chloride helps the acid begin to attack the base metal.



So you are actually using the CuCl2 process



Alondro said:


> I just let my beaker of fingers in HCl sit there just at the boiling point for hours at a time



just that you are using heat to drive the reaction instead of an air bubbler --- & as we know - heat drives a reaction better then cold does



Alondro said:


> I'm almost done with a 'big' batch of a pound of fingers.


Alondro - I don't mean to pick on you &/or be disrespectful - but - that is not a big batch - in fact 1 pound of fingers is considered (recommended) as the "small" batch starting point for new members to do in/for the learning process

1 pound of fingers will give a new (learning) member enough gold (about 1.5 grams) for the learning process without worrying about suffering a big loss - IF (the BIG IF) they screw up in the process of learning

Then - once they have success with the "small" 1 pound batch - we recommend they move up to a "mid" size 3 - 5 pound batch - after succeeding at a mid size batch they are then ready to move up to larger batches & or even "big" batches

When you start recovering (plus/minus) an ozt gold (about 20 - 21 pounds of fingers) you are starting to work on a larger batch level

2 or more ozt recovery is when you have moved up to playing with the big batch boys - and - at that point you are better served moving away from doing them with acids & going with cyanide leaching

Again - I am not trying to be nit picky &/or disrespectful - I am simply pointing out that there is a BIG difference between working at a hobby/learning level - & working at a "successful" refiners level

A successful refiners level is when you start working in batches that "actually" pay you back a profit for your time, chemicals & equipment investment - you are not even close to that yet

And to clarify - there is nothing wrong with working at a hobby level

Kurt


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You can of course buy crystalline Stannous Chloride, but for our use it is not necessary.
> Why do you want copper in it?
> It will probably work but why add something you do not need?
> Where do the Idea of copper come from?
> ...


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

The tin I have found is in the form of solder and it contains 3 percent copper, I did not find pure tin. I was asking if that 3 percent would affect my testing solution if I use it for this purpose


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You can of course buy crystalline Stannous Chloride, but for our use it is not necessary.
> Why do you want copper in it?
> It will probably work but why add something you do not need?
> Where do the Idea of copper come from?
> ...


I have a roll of tin solder which contains 97 tin and 3 percent copper


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> There are no such thing as Stanium as far as I know, unless someone has named something Stanium. Stannous Chloride is Tin (Sn) dissolved in HCl.
> You need to get your names and conventions correct when you are talking about chemicals.


I meant to say Stannum (SN)


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 30, 2022)

The answer is, yes it will work.

Dave


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Shark said:


> How many pounds will you be running per batch?


Sorry, I think I did not see your post, I have a few kilos which I have put in a big plastic jar and covered it with HCL of 55 percent, after a few day I have added 500ml of H202 of 3 percent, now it is about 22 days and there are many tiny flakes floating but most of the fingers did not come off, it has been cold and I had the jar pretty closed not air tight but closed, I realize that way the oxygen did not get to it , I was expecting about 3 weeks but because of the relative coold days the process is slow.


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## Shark (Apr 30, 2022)

I used to run these in AR. Trimmed close and mixed with other types of ribbon ends as well. It isn’t a pretty method but the materials are very low grade. I stopped doing them when I started getting larger quantities of almost any material of better quality. With a large batch they can be good to learn from.


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

my initial plan was to use AR but since I am a beginner I took the advice of a known youtuber which seemed reasonable knowledgeable which said the solution would be too dirty, now it has been a few weeks since I have added the peroxide and not sure if I could add now a bit of nitric to make AR? I wanted to keep only one type of material because I am also filming the whole story. Not sure what the substrate contains. There are already tiny flakes floating and when I stir with a long glass rod, the floating gold sticks to it. I figured if I don't add nitric I could reuse the HCL after filtering.


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

These are the cut ribbons, they were so many so they were not cut all the way to the edge


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## Shark (Apr 30, 2022)

Off the top of my head …..

I would add an aquarium air pump, smallest or cheapest I could find. Use a container large enough to have good head room in case it try’s to foam up and to hold any splashes from the bursting bubbles. I use watch glasses personally. Or sit the whole thing in a large bucket. The air pump will give you a steady supply of oxidizer and allow your copper(II)chloride to work better. If the solution is real dark or brown add some hydrochloric to it. If after four days I still had foils floating test with stannous chloride, if negative, filter and add filter and all contents to AR. If positive, making very small additions, add nitric and dissolve everything completely. Personally I use sulfamic acid to denox, other methods work as well. In this “dirty” solution I prefer to use copperas to drop with. Copperas will have less drag down of contaminants than smb. Make the drop, if it turns dark, almost black, let it sit until it is has no cloudiness at all. Gently Siphon or decant the liquid without disturbing the settled powders. Wash the powders until no signs of acids or discoloration remains. You should now be ready to start your refine process. Start by adding the contents from either process to AR…..

No need to wash if you have the filter left. Run it in AR and use the pulp to increase the filters ability to hold the contaminants once you reach that point.

Hope that makes sense.


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## orvi (Apr 30, 2022)

kurtak said:


> So you are actually using the CuCl2 process
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. More than 3-4 lb and you are losing the comfort and safety of beakers  moving to more uncertain waters of buckets, spilling solutions and splashes, siphoning tubes and lenghty operations.


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Shark said:


> Off the top of my head …..
> 
> I would add an aquarium air pump, smallest or cheapest I could find. Use a container large enough to have good head room in case it try’s to foam up and to hold any splashes from the bursting bubbles. I use watch glasses personally. Or sit the whole thing in a large bucket. The air pump will give you a steady supply of oxidizer and allow your copper(II)chloride to work better. If the solution is real dark or brown add some hydrochloric to it. If after four days I still had foils floating test with stannous chloride, if negative, filter and add filter and all contents to AR. If positive, making very small additions, add nitric and dissolve everything completely. Personally I use sulfamic acid to denox, other methods work as well. In this “dirty” solution I prefer to use copperas to drop with. Copperas will have less drag down of contaminants than smb. Make the drop, if it turns dark, almost black, let it sit until it is has no cloudiness at all. Gently Siphon or decant the liquid without disturbing the settled powders. Wash the powders until no signs of acids or discoloration remains. You should now be ready to start your refine process. Start by adding the contents from either process to AR…..
> 
> ...


Thank you, that is very good and clear advice for me, today I bought a small pump and tomorrow I will start. I have to read everything again and visualize all these steps, It is hard to find supplies at reasonable price here, even copperas is hard to find.


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## Martijn (Apr 30, 2022)

Yes, as long as there is copper or other base metals in the solution the gold will cement out. 
The H2O2 will degrade and you can continue dissolving more gold plated material. 
Just let the solution settle and decant and filter the powder.


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## dpgold (Apr 30, 2022)

Shark said:


> No need to wash if you have the filter left. Run it in AR and use the pulp to increase the filters ability to hold the contaminants once you reach that point.


not sure what you meant by this


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## Martijn (Apr 30, 2022)

dpgold said:


> "H2O2 with HCl can dissolve gold. Dissolved gold will cement out on base metals." This means that if gold dissolves in HCL Peroxide solution the copper in the solution will precipitate the gold back out of the solution?


Yes. Filter the gold powder out with the foils. 
The H2O2 will degrade fast.


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## Shark (Apr 30, 2022)

If you have a negative test with stannous chloride of your coppper(ll)chloride, after a few days of running the air pump, then filter the entire solution until you catch all the powders and odd bits. This filtered material, filter and powder’s, can be ran in AR with out the washing steps. This keeps the waste solution from growing so much. Less waste to clean up. The filter will break down in the AR into the fibers from the paper, which aids in filtering finer particles. This can keep from needing to filter solutions multiply times. The captured fibers will require a bit more washing to rinse your gold bearing AR out though.


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## Shark (Apr 30, 2022)

Example of a properly filtered solution. No cloudiness at all.









Someone once said.....


Someone once said you should be able to read a newspaper through your solution before precipitating it. Sorry, I didn't have a newspaper :D




goldrefiningforum.com


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## richoc (May 1, 2022)

When using a air pump for fish tanks your going to want a piece of the hard plastic tubing for the end of the supply line, say 16 inches long. This pipe with then allow you to get the air stream to the bottom of your containment unit, also allows for maximum up flow, oxygen contact and can be used for light stirring. 

You can not use a air stone to hold the tubing down like you do in a fish tank, as it with come apart in the acid and your only going to make a mess doing so.

You can make a custom air diffuser by heating a long section of this tube and bending(slowly) it 90 degrees and then heat a pin and make tiny holes in the bottom bent section. Heat and then pinch the end closed, allowing less air out the open end. This will give you a wide bubbling area and if your pump can provide the needed air , producing faster results as more oxygen contact is made and more agitation of the solution.


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## dpgold (May 2, 2022)

Thank you, I have a 90 degree elbow, I will put holes in a plastic tube for the bottom


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## Martijn (May 2, 2022)

Or put a stainless steel nut on the hose end that just fits tight enough to hold. I have a stainless piece of tubing slid on it.


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## GoldUser (May 3, 2022)

1mysurveymail said:


> Hello. Has anyone figured out an easy way to recover the gold from computer and monitor cables/mylars lije this?
> View attachment 46376
> 
> 
> ...


Hey,
I did like 400g of these with Hcl/Peroxide and dissolved the foils i bleach afterwards. I didnt saw any diffrence to the RAM finger process.
It worked just fine for me. Same process as RAM fingers. Yiels was pretty low from those.
David


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## dpgold (May 3, 2022)

I have a batch running for 25 days and for the past 3 days I added a bubbler. It depends on the specific material you have, even each piece of memory is different, then is the concentration of acid, concentration of AP, temperature, etc. Any of these variable could make it longer or less time. After I added teh bubbler the temperature outside increased considerably. I start by expecting a long time with AP.


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## dpgold (May 4, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Thank you, that is very good and clear advice for me, today I bought a small pump and tomorrow I will start. I have to read everything again and visualize all these steps, It is hard to find supplies at reasonable price here, even copperas is hard to find.


Hi, it has been 4 days now with the air bubbler, the most dramatic change has been in the last day, seems like all the fingers are gone from their support and the solution is dark, until day 3 the solution was mostly green. I guess I should leave it one more day and then filter?


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## war_child (May 4, 2022)

Hello dpgold. I wish I would have posted this yesterday, but my phone wouldn't sync up with my pc and I couldn't import any pictures. I'm afraid I should have said something right after I read your post though, just so you wouldn't make the same mistake I did. I tried to make modifications to my bubbler hose in an attempt to increase dissolution of air into solution, as well as better anchor the hose at the bottom. I constructed the "halo", as I called it, and it failed miserably and stole my gold  

It turns out, the acid-peroxide solution will also dissolve _other_ things, including whatever my three-way hose adapter was made out of. I don't know if it was PVC or nylon, but I think I read on the forum that nylon will dissolve in either HCL or clc2. 

I saved the remnants in hopes of recovering the gold in the future, and I'm happy to share the failure in case it can help anyone _else_ in the future. If you used little, black, barbed fittings we might be in the same boat. I'm sure the keys to unlocking the gold are in the pages of the forum, and I'll do that research when I'm ready. I'm guessing there may be incineration involved.

Good Luck!
mike


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## Martijn (May 4, 2022)

If any gold got dissolved in AP, just add more copper to dissolve. It will cement out the gold. Collect as powder with the foils.

I guess PolyVinylChloride does not like Hydrogen Chloride. Go for the SS nut!

Dark AP does not dissolve copper. It has become cuprous chloride. You need cupric chloride to dissolve copper.
Read back and read again. Then read again and read the following thread:








Help where do I start to learn these skills?


We wish to learn a skill to find to recover and refine gold from scrap and electronic trash. These skills take many years to learn, and many more years to get good at it. So where do we begin? We do not begin by mixing acids with metals, trash or rocks, as this is not only dangerous but just...




goldrefiningforum.com




And how did your experiment with one or a couple of fingers turn out? What did you learn from that? If i may ask.

Martijn.
Edited: no content change made


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## Martijn (May 4, 2022)

Try to find out how to convert CuCl1 to CuCl2. That should explain alot.
Edited: Removed bad link.


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## Martijn (May 4, 2022)

Martijn said:


> If any gold got dissolved in AP, just add more copper to dissolve. It will cement out the gold. Collect as powder with the foils.
> 
> I guess PolyVinylChloride does not like Hydrogen Chloride. Go for the SS nut!
> 
> ...


That is not the one i meant, so here is the one i meant to share: 








Acid Peroxide Process Information Thread Q & A's


The purpose of this thread is to begin to consolidate the vast amount of questions and answers related to the Acid Peroxide (aka AP) recovery process. First and foremost, the name for the process, Acid Peroxide is a misnomer as the active ingredient is actually copper II chloride (CuCl2), so it...




goldrefiningforum.com


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## dpgold (May 4, 2022)

war_child said:


> Hello dpgold. I wish I would have posted this yesterday, but my phone wouldn't sync up with my pc and I couldn't import any pictures. I'm afraid I should have said something right after I read your post though, just so you wouldn't make the same mistake I did. I tried to make modifications to my bubbler hose in an attempt to increase dissolution of air into solution, as well as better anchor the hose at the bottom. I constructed the "halo", as I called it, and it failed miserably and stole my gold
> 
> It turns out, the acid-peroxide solution will also dissolve _other_ things, including whatever my three-way hose adapter was made out of. I don't know if it was PVC or nylon, but I think I read on the forum that nylon will dissolve in either HCL or clc2.
> 
> ...


thank you, how was your gold lost? If the plastic was dissolved somehow it should not have affected the solution, it could be that the heat melt it?


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## Shark (May 4, 2022)

I no longer use air hose for “AP”. When I did, regular aquarium hose worked fine as I replaced it about once a year anyway. From there I started using cpvc water line and five gallon buckets. When I do use “AP” now I use air lift type pumps to circulate the solution. The biggest downside to this method is it will constantly dissolve the copper and drop it back out as it circulates away from moving solution. The bucket/water pipe works really well for 95% of situations and can be used even in large 50 gallon barrels with enough air.


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## dpgold (May 4, 2022)

Martijn said:


> If any gold got dissolved in AP, just add more copper to dissolve. It will cement out the gold. Collect as powder with the foils.
> 
> I guess PolyVinylChloride does not like Hydrogen Chloride. Go for the SS nut!
> 
> ...


I was not able to do the experiment yet since I did not set up a place for these experiments yet, I am looking forward to learn all these things but I don't have all the necessary equipment set up yet, I need to do these outside the house. In theory is not that complicated but I can not digest all this new information so easily. I have the current batch set up outside in a jar within a bucket and covered by some glass near the house. 
Basically all most of the fingers fell off but I have to make a stannous solution to test if there is any gold dissolved and figure out what I have. I got a hold of some SN in the form of solder and will dissolve in HCL (the recipe I got calls for 2g tin to 10ml HCL or 12g to 50ml). Now my batch has little pieces of gold floating, I don't see on top whole fingers just tiny pieces. I am trying to keep up with your advice to learn as much as I can.


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## dpgold (May 4, 2022)

dpgold said:


> I was not able to do the experiment yet since I did not set up a place for these experiments yet, I am looking forward to learn all these things but I don't have all the necessary equipment set up yet, I need to do these outside the house. In theory is not that complicated but I can not digest all this new information so easily. I have the current batch set up outside in a jar within a bucket and covered by some glass near the house.
> Basically all most of the fingers fell off but I have to make a stannous solution to test if there is any gold dissolved and figure out what I have. I got a hold of some SN in the form of solder and will dissolve in HCL (the recipe I got calls for 2g tin to 10ml HCL or 12g to 50ml). Now my batch has little pieces of gold floating, I don't see on top whole fingers just tiny pieces. I am trying to keep up with your advice to learn as much as I can.





Martijn said:


> I am trying to understand this cementation process, where does the polyvynilchloride comes from in a solution





Martijn said:


> If any gold got dissolved in AP, just add more copper to dissolve. It will cement out the gold. Collect as powder with the foils.
> 
> I guess PolyVinylChloride does not like Hydrogen Chloride. Go for the SS nut!
> 
> ...


PolyVinylChloride? The solution is darker however on the lid there is green solution, maybe I should add some HCL and do a stannous test first before anything else? I am looking for the SS nut. Yes it is a lot of info to digest at once but I am determined.


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## dpgold (May 4, 2022)

GoldUser said:


> Hey,
> I did like 400g of these with Hcl/Peroxide and dissolved the foils i bleach afterwards. I didnt saw any diffrence to the RAM finger process.
> It worked just fine for me. Same process as RAM fingers. Yiels was pretty low from those.
> David


Hi, can you tell me what did you do after you dissolved the foils, did you filter and then use bleach, how did you precipitate?


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## Martijn (May 4, 2022)

dpgold said:


> PolyVinylChloride? The solution is darker however on the lid there is green solution, maybe I should add some HCL and do a stannous test first before anything else? I am looking for the SS nut. Yes it is a lot of info to digest at once but I am determined.


That was a reply to warchilds hose dissolving in AP. 
The reactivity series solved your problem. No need for stannous testing on a solution saturated with copper. You will hardly see any purple in the brown from the copper.


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## dpgold (May 4, 2022)

Martijn said:


> That was a reply to warchilds hose dissolving in AP.
> The reactivity series solved your problem. No need for stannous testing on a solution saturated with copper. You will hardly see any purple in the brown from the copper.


So a more reactive element will cement out an element which is below in the reactivity series, thus copper remains in the solution and gold has precipitated. Now I should filter, wash (with tap water?) and then refine in AR?


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## Martijn (May 4, 2022)

I think you should filter and stock up those foils until you have studied enough and have a plan for us to review. 

Or keep them in a bottle to shake and watch until you're ready to refine them. Or just keep dissolving more plated items until the bottom is full of foils and powder. 

*First*, know how to deal with the waste you will create. 

Then, know how to _*safely*_ perform the processes needed to dissolve, chill, dilute, filter, precipitate, wash and melt your gold. 

Where will you perform chemistry without endangering your surrounding family friends pets etc. 

Where and how to store supplies, byproducts and waste.

So much to learn before putting you health at risk for that little bit of gold. 

Take your time. A couple of months. 

Ask if you can't find the answer or if you don't understand it. It all here for you to discover.

Have fun. Be safe.

Martijn.


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## Shark (May 4, 2022)

Martin is right, now is a good point to step back and study a bit more. It is a good place to store what you have and get a better understanding of what you wish to achieve. A detailed list of your plan before proceeding can give us a better understanding of how much you know, giving us a better idea of how to help you. We could simply write it out for you, but it wouldn’t help you if something goes wrong.


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## dpgold (May 5, 2022)

Martijn said:


> I think you should filter and stock up those foils until you have studied enough and have a plan for us to review.
> 
> Or keep them in a bottle to shake and watch until you're ready to refine them. Or just keep dissolving more plated items until the bottom is full of foils and powder.
> 
> ...


I filtered the solution today, first a rough filtering of the plastic support then I put the partially washed stuff in another bucket, I tried to wash down all the gold remains with water but it clings to the plastic walls. What should I wash it with?


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## Martijn (May 5, 2022)

I know! Its like working with leaf gold!! 
The stuff sticks to everything. The nose of your breathing mask e.g as I remember a certain wild cowboy from last year...

Spray (pressurized pump) bottle with tapwater works fine for me. 
I have the plated items in a perforated bucket to lift and rinse all the foils down while in the AP. Only need to shake every now and then to flush it all down to the bottom. 
Then spray rinse off the pcb and plastic parts above another bucket, not diluting your AP. 
Let it all settle for some time and decant the most of the AP back into the bucket to dissolve some more plated items. Filter the last bit and if there is white CuCl1 clogging the filter, rinse with a bit HCl. This will take some time.


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## Shark (May 5, 2022)

Yep, filtering is the biggest time constraint when refining. I like Martins use of perforated bucket as well. It works really well with 5 gallon buckets.


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## dpgold (May 5, 2022)

Martijn said:


> I know! Its like working with leaf gold!!
> The stuff sticks to everything. The nose of your breathing mask e.g as I remember a certain wild cowboy from last year...
> 
> Spray (pressurized pump) bottle with tapwater works fine for me.
> ...


I tried with pressurized bottle, it seems like static holds them, even the glass pipete I used to stirr has gold, will alcohol or soap affect anything? Soap will break the surface tension and should make everything sink?


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## Shark (May 5, 2022)

Try a few drops of Jet Dry soap for dishwashers. Works well in plain water but have never tried with AP.


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## war_child (May 5, 2022)

dpgold said:


> thank you, how was your gold lost? If the plastic was dissolved somehow it should not have affected the solution, it could be that the heat melt it?


Sorry dpgold, let me be more clear. The AP leach ended up partially melting the small, barbed fitting I used to connect the pieces of my air bubbler hose. Some of the plastic (or nylon) melted off, into the soaking ram fingers. The "goo" mixed with some gold foils, and those foils are locked up in the dried plastic/ nylon. The fitting is now a hardened mass containing more foils. You may be able to tell from the pictures, some of the dissolved nylon rose to the top of the soak, and retained even more foils as it hardened against the walls of the reaction vessel.

Be careful,
mike


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## dpgold (May 6, 2022)

war_child said:


> Sorry dpgold, let me be more clear. The AP leach ended up partially melting the small, barbed fitting I used to connect the pieces of my air bubbler hose. Some of the plastic (or nylon) melted off, into the soaking ram fingers. The "goo" mixed with some gold foils, and those foils are locked up in the dried plastic/ nylon. The fitting is now a hardened mass containing more foils. You may be able to tell from the pictures, some of the dissolved nylon rose to the top of the soak, and retained even more foils as it hardened against the walls of the reaction vessel.
> 
> Be careful,
> mike


Thanks, I would grind it very fine and then separate it with water mechanically.


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## dpgold (May 6, 2022)

Martijn said:


> I think you should filter and stock up those foils until you have studied enough and have a plan for us to review.
> 
> Or keep them in a bottle to shake and watch until you're ready to refine them. Or just keep dissolving more plated items until the bottom is full of foils and powder.
> 
> ...


Hi, I have a picture of what I filtered from the main solution, could I reuse the solution or just cement out copper ? I have put the filter aside for further refining when I have more. I have to wash the remains of the ribbons separately and filter more gold. I will do a stannous test anyway just for practice.


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## Martijn (May 6, 2022)

Dpgold, as much as i love teaching, maybe even more than actually refining e-waste, you really need to read the replies we give you. 
So, to repeat my advise: 
_Let it all settle for some time and decant the most of the AP back into the bucket to dissolve some more plated items._


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## dpgold (May 6, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Dpgold, as much as i love teaching, maybe even more than actually refining e-waste, you really need to read the replies we give you.
> So, to repeat my advise:
> _Let it all settle for some time and decant the most of the AP back into the bucket to dissolve some more plated items._


I put aside the main filtrate solution which I assume has power to dissolve other items, the previous batch was totally finished, all the metals came off but I want to find what is the yield to my batch because I kept a record of all the quantities I have used. I kept serparately the first filtrate of the AP, then I had to wash the remnants several times and filter again due to the size of the ribbon ends, some of the gold was floating and some was clinging to the walls so I had to filter again the remaining liquid. I am trying to follow your advice, sometimes maybe I don't understand everything completely.


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## Martijn (May 9, 2022)

Ok, fair enough. 

But how good are you at recovering and refining? 
What i mean is, if you base future plans on results that are off by making beginner mistakes or not having a consistent process, then what is that specific yield number worth? 
The yield difference between material from different manufacturers could be way larger than the precision of your measurement. Or vica versa. 
Do you sort the plated cable ends by type and model? Or just a toss it all in a box approach? Do you cut off 0.6mm of unplated cable outside the plating or 1.16mm? 
Get my point?
Giving no advantage in deciding if its worth recovering or what to expect in the future. 

AP is a very simple process, making a bunch of plated ribbon ends profitable imo. Like ram fingers. It's easy to get to, easy to refine. Easy money.

Try to keep it simple until you have a lot more experience. 
Start with scientific approach when you can keep *all variables constant *and change only one to measure effect. We once had a very commited member who gave yield numbers bases on a weight of 0.1 gram, where his smallest readout was 0.1 gram. That's a tolerance of about 100% making the yield number pretty much a guess. If he used a 0.001 gram scale, then it could be something worthwile. 

Sooo,
Keep a portion of material seperate to test once you can. 
Or better yet: keep ten equal portions separate and try to reproduce the yield on each batch to test the reliability of the obtained yield number. 
Crawl first, then walk, then run. 

Have fun studying. It can be a true eye opener once you start to understand what this fantastic science is all about. 
Only ask if you really really can't find it. 

Martijn. 

Ps: assumptions are a recipe for disasters. Know. Understand. By reading what we've written in previous answers.


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## dpgold (May 9, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Ok, fair enough.
> 
> But how good are you at recovering and refining?
> What i mean is, if you base future plans on results that are off by making beginner mistakes or not having a consistent process, then what is that specific yield number worth?
> ...


before my firs beginner attempt with the ribbons I had tried to find all the information I could, for about a year, during this time somehow I missed the forum where I could have learn much much more, I partially read a book about the precious metals refining and did my best at understanding the process correctly. Learning chemistry takes time for me and I have to practice, that is why I started with what seemed the easiest, the ribbons. However the chemistry behind is complicated in the beginning for me. When I started I did not even know that gold dissolves in a liquid solution. Now I am trying to understand the CUCL1 and CUCL2 thing but I can really understand it when I translate in practice the theory. It took me a while to get some lab stuff at a reasonable cost, like beakers, chemicals, it is much harder to get them over here.
While I try to understand a process which, for some reason, seem to be hard for me I am searching for some other information which I could understand and memorize. Meanwhile experiments could take time this is why if I could safely start an experiment I would. I take notes and write everything about it so I know what I did. I think I mentioned that I also film mostly everything. 
You are right about starting with the simple things. So far I followed the advice I got but I don't understand everything very very well that is why I keep reading and experimenting. Yesterday i did a bit of stannous solution just to make sure I can do some test . I put 1g of scraped tin in HCL 55 percent. I am trying to avoid mistakes.


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## Martijn (May 9, 2022)

To avoid problems: stannous testing is done with one drop of solution and one drop of stannous on a white spot plate or filter paper. Not to be added to entire solutions.


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## dpgold (May 10, 2022)

Martijn said:


> To avoid problems: stannous testing is done with one drop of solution and one drop of stannous on a white spot plate or filter paper. Not to be added to entire solutions.


Hi, I read again the Air Regenerated Acid Cupric Chloride article and try to comprehend a few thing since I can not wrap my head around all the formulas.
So I start with HCL and H2O2 and Oxigen from air plus the dissolved base metals. This becomes CUCL2 or Cupric Chloride? To renew the solution after eating away base metals I have to add HCL or H2O2 or both? That part I could not understand from the article. It seems like the space time continuum has warped.


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## Yggdrasil (May 10, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Hi, I read again the Air Regenerated Acid Cupric Chloride article and try to comprehend a few thing since I can not wrap my head around all the formulas.
> So I start with HCL and H2O2 and Oxigen from air plus the dissolved base metals. This becomes CUCL2 or Cupric Chloride? To renew the solution after eating away base metals I have to add HCL or H2O2 or both? That part I could not understand from the article. It seems like the space time continuum has warped.


Simply explained.
HCl can’t dissolve Copper, but it can convert Copper(I) Chloride to Copper (II) Chloride. The oxygen from the bubbler or H2O2 or plain dissolved air in HCl and Copper2 chloride oxidise the copper to CuCl and then the HCl transform that to Cu2Cl and the process restarts over and over again. 
There are many threads explaining this on the forum. Among other this one 2nd attempt AP method


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## Martijn (May 10, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Hi, I read again the Air Regenerated Acid Cupric Chloride article and try to comprehend a few thing since I can not wrap my head around all the formulas.
> So I start with HCL and H2O2 and Oxigen from air plus the dissolved base metals. This becomes CUCL2 or Cupric Chloride? To renew the solution after eating away base metals I have to add HCL or H2O2 or both? That part I could not understand from the article. It seems like the space time continuum has warped.


I made this to visualize the preparation and use of AP.

Martijn.

Edit to say: free for all to use.


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## Shark (May 10, 2022)

There are many ways to renew copper(ll)chloride also known as CuCl2 or the dreaded AP. For me the simplest is to add an aquarium air pump. Leave it running until the solution turns green again. Adding fresh HCl will work if the HCl is depleted. Peroxide is the carrier and not the cure for dark CuCl2. The needed oxygen is carried by the peroxide, effectively regenerating the CuCl2 if the problem is the lack of oxygen. If you have gold involved you again risk dissolving it when adding peroxide. This is why I prefer the air pumps as well as they work without standing there and watching over it. This dark, depleted solution often occurs when using minimal solution. An excess of solution works faster and and is aided by the pump keeping a constant, steady supply of oxygen. 

If you think dark CuCl2 is a pain wait until it starts going clear on you


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## dpgold (May 10, 2022)

Martijn said:


> I made this to visualize the preparation and use of AP.
> 
> Martijn.


Nice graphic, I was thinking to make a drawing to visualize things better. So basically when I added HCL and indirectly CUCL2 (because initially there was none but the copper from the material oxidized in the presence of oxygen forming CUCL2) this newly formed solution started attacking all the base metals (?) but not gold(?) and while doing so became darker forming CUCL1 (WHICH IS BROWN). Then by adding O2 becomes green again (ONLY IF STILL IT HAS enough HCL?) and then the cycle of "LIFE" starts again like in Buddhism.


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## Martijn (May 10, 2022)

dpgold said:


> Nice graphic, I was thinking to make a drawing to visualize things better. So basically when I added HCL and indirectly CUCL2 (because initially there was none but the copper from the material oxidized in the presence of oxygen forming CUCL2) this newly formed solution started attacking all the base metals *(?)YES* but not gold*(?)YES* and while doing so became darker forming CUCL1 (WHICH IS BROWN). Then by adding O2 becomes green again (ONLY IF STILL IT HAS enough HCL?) and then the cycle of "LIFE" starts again like in Buddhism.


Exactly. You got it!


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## dpgold (May 11, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Exactly. You got it!


What would happen if there is aluminum, steel, and other base metals in AP?


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## Martijn (May 11, 2022)

No idea how aluminum reacts to CuCl or HCL. Never tried it. Don't need to. 
Google for: Al + CuCl reaction. 
Iron cements all the copper out, by displacement according the reactivity series. So do other base metals.


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## dpgold (May 25, 2022)

Martijn said:


> Try to find out how to convert CuCl1 to CuCl2. That should explain alot.
> Edited: Removed bad link.


I am doing an experiment to see how I can rejuvenate and reuse AP, I have put a few gold fingers from RAM and covered it with used AP which is now brown (indicating it is CUCL1) I added the bubbler and let it run to introduce Oxygen to transform it back into CUCL2. It should turn light green again? I also added a little fresh HCL


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