# HCL-CL solution turned blood-red with casual heat



## mpact11 (Jan 24, 2012)

Hello All. 
This being my first post I want to start, like most, with a sincere "Thank You" to all the Jedi who donate their time and Knowledge to this site. Without you guys I might have ended up with IShor’s crap, or worse, gone honey badger rogue and rusted my dog’s collar. I think a visionary somewhere saw this as the true use of the internet. Well done. If any of you are ever in KC I would like to buy you a drink. 

Ok, I have run a total of 3 sulphuric cells, two of which harvests are shown here. The first ‘Proof of Concept’ run was uneventful with a 2gr bb which was a little dirty but the processes were sound. Need to work on washes before HCL+Cl and after precipitating.

Method and Material:
Sulphuric- Roto from True Value
Power supply – Shumaker 10/30/50 Fast charge Power Boost (12v w/analog amp gauge)
Lead- Plumbers lead from a plumber friend. Didn’t see a box or any sheet as to the make up
Copper- Mat from Lazer Steve
Distilled Water – Wallgreens
The cell was constructed to replicate steve’s. 
HCL – Home Depot 
Cl – Clorox
Ammonium Hydroxide - 10% True value
Tin powder – lazerSteve
After my first run success I ran a around 3-4 pounds of plated pins and jewelry (random mix)until the cell started shorting and I harvested it (which is the Green flask in the picture).


While that powder settled and was washed I started another cell which I ran all the same item which were the connectors from the chassis of Nortel Centillion 5000 switch/server. It was a modular system with blades which could be swapped. (connectors shown in picture)


I had about a pound of those which totaled ~450 sq in 
The deplating would take 1-2 min with the amp gauge going ~15 then quickly going to around 10 and stay there until mostly depleted then it would drop to ~0.
The first anomaly was when I finished the run and the powder would not settle. Which I didn’t find to surprising after seeing the powder in a less viscous solution at the end of washing the first two and wondering how any of it could settle in the sulphuric being as light and ‘talc-y’ as it was… . No big deal, I just washed the whole cell. After washing until not showing blue, I drew off as much water as possible and proceeded to put it into solution . This was done outside with an ambient of 50F. in both cases 100ml HCL and 30ml Clorox were added. 
The green flask started reacting quickly. The red flask stayed black. I waited and watched and swirled and green flask stalled and red flask stayed black. So I added ~50ml Hcl and By this time the sun was setting and temps were dropping so I decided to get the hair dryer to help things along. I had not added any more Clorox at that time. But after heating the green flask and not seeing it accept the black powder I decided to add more Clorox. As it were, I added the Clorox to the green flask first because I was heating the red flask with the hair dryer to see if there was any response to the heat. There wasn’t . But when I started adding the 20ml of Clorox it got violent, With rapid bubbles almost over the top of the vessel before I could stop the addition. And then is when I noticed the red.
It wasn’t translucent then … it looked like blood . when I added the remainder of the Clorox (~10ml) it had the same response. Within 20 min it was close to the translucence it shows now. 

Stannous test is green flask is on Left and Red flask on right


I was very perplexed. Other than the feed stock, all was the same. Which I know allows for innumerable variables, but the batch that should be acting wild is relatively on track, and the control sample is the one with the anomaly. From what I could recall I could not remember any ‘red’ in any process or for that matter any mistake I had read about in posts . With the acceptation of the bright red picture in the handbook which I knew was about palladium. Where I was there was no computer but there was a 1910 full set of Encyclopedia Britannica with an extensive section on Au (is it me or does it seem they dumb those books down nowadays?). And I Quote: ‘when the gold is finely divided as in “purple of cassias” or when it is precipitated from solution the colour (sic) is ruby-red.’ 
After reading that I felt better, other than it wasn’t being precipitated and it wasn’t supposed to be finely divided it was supposed to be in solution.
(NOTE: The Nortel pins had no solder they were held with compression sockets. Not all were plated on both sides, some –very few- had a shiney silvery coating on one side) 
So I had my first post… Feeling like I better complete my due-diligence beforehand I searched several variations of ‘solution turned red’ and found a couple 
The ones I didn’t like involved AP and iron from pins and dirty HCL.
Maybe lead or silver in solution 
And the one I did like was from Oz –( Re: HCL+CL minimum) about really concentrated HCL+CL solutions where there was 7ozs in 200ml. So I latched on to that one. 
Any input would be appreciated. If I am missing something important like: hey now of course you--. Because I might not have.
Wow this is really long. I tried to include the information I notice is missing from the “I messed up the liquidy stuff what’s wrong with it” posts.
Thank you


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## Geo (Jan 24, 2012)

our friend Dr. Poe has shown that gold can form this color as a colloidal precipitate.could the beaker have been contaminated? i would try and precipitate as much gold from solution as i could and if the color remains red after precipitation, i would add a small amount of hcl first and if no change then a little sulfuric. red color in a solution can be alot of different things.


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## Dr. Poe (Jan 25, 2012)

NaClO +3 HCl + Au gives NaAuCl4 (red to reddish yellow 'Sodio-gold') The color lightens on dilution.
NaClO +3 HCl + 2Au gives NaAuCl4-Au (green do to undissolved gold particles) 
Not unusual. You just had more gold than expected. Dr. Poe


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## butcher (Jan 25, 2012)

mpact11. 

I do not have any answers, but a few questions.

How do these pins react to a normal magnet?

The blue crystals you speak of sounds like copper sulfate, how much of this was in the powders?

Was the sulfuric concentrated (not much water), do you think it may have gained water from damp air and became more dilute, possibly dissolving some base metals during stripping.

I have not used the sulfuric cell, and so I have no experience with the colors one may get from using that as a recovery method, but I suspect some base metal in solution.

Wow what a great first post well thought out, good detail, I could tell you have been working hard learning this, I hope someone will help you with these colors.

To me the red solution is more curious, I would probably try and test some of this liquid in white plastic spoon, add a crystal of ferrous sulfate (copperas), a brown ring of gold will precipitate out, then use pipette move a drop the (gold barren solution from this spoon to a new spoon, or Qtip, leave gold powder behind in the first spoon, test this solution with stannous chloride what color, and another drop of gold barren solution with drop of DMG any reaction?

The green one just looks to have some copper dissolved to me, but it could also be tested 
Who knows?


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## Geo (Jan 25, 2012)

yes. i can see that now.it looks like some of the concentrated gold solutions ive seen pictures of. mine has always been either yellow to honey golden.


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## Palladium (Jan 25, 2012)

mpact11 said:


> or worse, gone honey badger rogue and rusted my dog’s collar.



Honey Badger don't care. lol
Roll Tide !!!!!!

Welcome to the forum. 8)


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## mpact11 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thank you for the response. I have been working with the solutions and have created a mess... But first let me answer what was asked. 


> How do these pins react to a normal magnet?


Normal magnet I would assume means a ferrite not a rare earth. Non-magnetic with a ferrite magnet. Magnetic with rare earth.


> The blue crystals you speak of sounds like copper sulfate, how much of this was in the powders?


I don't recall anything about blue crystals


> Was the sulfuric concentrated (


The sulfuric was new. I also dried the copper screens before I used them again 


> I could tell you have been working hard learning this


Thank you, and I have however accomplished a pretty thoughtless mistake. I have put way too much smb into solution when trying to drop. For some reason I thought I read LazerSteve say he created a super saturated solution and added until clear. Well I was able to get probably 300gr in couple hundred ml of hot water. It passed through clear and went green and smelled horrible rather quickly. I need to know how to fix this if someone can point me in the right direction.
At first I thought this was excess chlorine so I put it on heat and the solution went back to yellow but the stannious test looked ambiguous resembling what people have shown with sulfur giving a false positive. 


> add a crystal of ferrous sulfate (copperas), a brown ring of gold will precipitate out


I do not have ferrous sulfate. I also do not have DMG. Are those items able to be acquired at your local Home Depot or does a person have to order these?
Any info would be appreciated. 
Thank you for the responses


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## Geo (Jan 30, 2012)

SMB is normally added at 2X weight of gold in solution, so if 1 gram of gold = 2 grams of SMB. ferrous sulfate crystals can be made easily. use new battery acid and clean steel (not hardened steel). warm the sulfuric acid. WARNING : sulfuric acid when heated will cause severe chemical burns and blind on contact with eyes. add steel until no more will dissolve, remove any pieces that did not dissolve. continue heating and evaporating water from solution until solution dries completely.blue crystals will start forming as the volume of fluid reaches the point of saturation until only crystals remain. if you are going to use the crystals in a short time store in an air tight container, if you make large batches for later use, store in a glass container, capped tightly, with enough concentrated sulfuric to cover the crystals.


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## mpact11 (Jan 30, 2012)

I have become aware of the 2x amount of smb. I don't know how it didn't register before...  Is there any way to salvage the HCL-Cl with way too much smb in it? 
Geo I have been searching your posts because it seems you touch on the subject but I never find one that says how to fix it. 
Thank you for the info on how to make Ferrous Sulfate.


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## Geo (Jan 30, 2012)

mpact11 said:


> I have become aware of the 2x amount of smb. I don't know how it didn't register before...  Is there any way to salvage the HCL-Cl with way too much smb in it?
> Geo I have been searching your posts because it seems you touch on the subject but I never find one that says how to fix it.
> Thank you for the info on how to make Ferrous Sulfate.



heat the solution until it reaches a slow gentle boil, then lower heat to just below a boil and maintain this heat for an hour or even two if the volume is enough to allow without drying.allow solution to cool and add a couple of drops of sulfuric acid to lower the PH. any gold should settle.


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## butcher (Feb 1, 2012)

Geo, the Ferrous sulfate (copperas) crystals are bright green. you must be wearing sunglasses when looking at yours.


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## Geo (Feb 1, 2012)

i think i am a little color blind, seriously. it looks aqua marine to me and ive always called it blue, even in earlier post. but yes copperas is a green crystal. sorry.


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## kadriver (Feb 2, 2012)

Geo said:


> ferrous sulfate crystals can be made easily. use new battery acid and clean steel (not hardened steel).



How can one tell if the steel is the right kind?

Would angle iron work for this?

Is angle iron steel?

clueless (kadriver)


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## maynman1751 (Feb 2, 2012)

The metal plates from a transformer are ideal for this task. I don't think that angle iron would be suitable....too much carbon.



butcher said:


> Ferrous sulfate will precipitate gold, you can make it with 10% sulfuric acid and pure soft iron (old transformer laminate cut to pieces, little heat or time.


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## mpact11 (Feb 2, 2012)

Thank you Geo. I will let you know how it turns out.


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## publius (Feb 2, 2012)

A36 steel (most common steel used in construction) has about 0.26% carbon, 0.40% Si and very little else other than Fe. That little bit of carbon and silicon should not affect a precipitation of gold when using ferrous sulfate made from your angle iron.

Don't use reinforcing steel as the source of iron, as metallurgy is not as tightly controlled. you will wind up for V, Mn, Mo etc as rebar is made with what ever junk steel they can find and material is added to produce the specified tensile strength. 

Ammens stated that he cements silver using a gold pan or cast iron (an old frying pan I think) and uses the resulting copperas to precipitate gold.


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## Harold_V (Feb 3, 2012)

maynman1751 said:


> The metal plates from a transformer are ideal for this task. I don't think that angle iron would be suitable....too much carbon.


Angle iron will serve well. Carbon can be allowed to settle out, or filtered. The only real risk in using any of the structural shapes is that they are made of re-melt steels, and may contain trace elements used in alloying. To minimize that problem, dissolved steel should be allowed to grow ferrous sulfate crystals, which will reject the vast majority of contaminants. 

The safest choice is to use what is known as Armco iron, the material used for making laminates in transformers and motors. It's a carbon free iron. Butcher promotes its use regularly. He's right. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Feb 3, 2012)

publius said:


> Ammens stated that he cements silver using a gold pan or cast iron (an old frying pan I think) and uses the resulting copperas to precipitate gold.


That doesn't make a lot of sense. Are you sure he's cementing, and not converting silver chloride to elemental silver? Cementing with iron would cement copper, too, which would not be desirable. By using iron and sulfuric, yeah, you'd end up with ferrous sulfate. Once filtered (and perhaps concentrated), it should grow clean crysals. 

Harold


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## publius (Feb 3, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> publius said:
> 
> 
> > Ammens stated that he cements silver using a gold pan or cast iron (an old frying pan I think) and uses the resulting copperas to precipitate gold.
> ...


Harold,
As usual, you are correct. Ammens was processing AgCl, converting it to metallic silver. This is how I produce my copperas.
Robert


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## kadriver (Feb 5, 2012)

Harold_V said:


> The safest choice is to use what is known as Armco iron, the material used for making laminates in transformers and motors. It's a carbon free iron. Butcher promotes its use regularly. He's right.
> 
> Harold



Would I be able to find this Armco iron inside of a computer power supply?

I have 10 or 12 of them at my shop, they must have transformers - I have never taken a computer power supply apart.

I also have some iron filings - about 1 lb - for doing magnetic experiments.

kadriver


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## Geo (Feb 5, 2012)

any transformer with steel laminates (sheets of steel) with copper windings will work. incinerate the laminates to remove any varnish or shellac. if the steel is grey, then its good for that process but if it is shiny with a white appearance it may be the high nickle content laminates and will not work because of the nickle.


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## butcher (Feb 5, 2012)

you will find some types of inductors, or transformers with ferrite cores, these are easy to tell the difference from the Iron core transformers.

You should have some small iron core transformers in a computer power supply.

I have to tear every thing up, just to see what is inside, and how it works, my wife hates it, when she buys something new, I have to take it apart, sometime's she hides her new stuff from me, but eventually she brings it to me to fix, then I get to see what is inside.


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