# Preparing Metal for Digestion



## Scrapper-aw-

There seemed to be some interest in the methods we use to "shot" our metal before digestion. 

When we first began wet refining we would make cornflake shot by simply pouring molten metal from our induction furnace crucible into a large stainless pot full of water. That material works fine for karat scrap and even for alloy batches containing <10% Ag. But in order to quickly and completely digest by inquartation methods smaller shot is better; no greater than 3mm to be exact. 

So our solution was to construct a spray nozzle aray in the shape of a doughnut. It is constructed of steel, is about 2.5 inches thick, hollow, and about 12 inches in diameter. It sits nicely in a hole cut in the middle of the top to the pot mentioned above. There is a water inlet on the outside of the doughnut and there are four fan spray nozzles located on the bottom pointing towards an imaginary spot below the middle of the center of the hole in the doughnut. Our water is pumped by a pump similar to the kind in the self serve car wash places. It provides 750 psi of water pressure per nozzle. When the molten metal is poured into the converging streams of water it is cut into sand size particles. Some particles are so small that they remain suspended in the water for quite some time.

Once the batch is completly shot all water is filtered and containers are rinsed into the same filter. 

Below is a link to a few pictures of a batch we will begin to refine on Monday. This was a starting weight or 177 troy ounces of assorted karat scrap. I'll get a picture of it when it's dry next week.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3358180/Our Shot 1.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3358180/Our Shot 2.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3358180/Our Shot 3.jpg


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## goldenchild

this is awsome. ive done something similar to this before but it was by grinding the scrap with a dremel. i guess it would take much longer to grind down 12 pounds though. :mrgreen:


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## Frankk12

Hi Scrapper
I was wondering how this looked


> So our solution was to construct a spray nozzle aray in the shape of a doughnut. It is constructed of steel, is about 2.5 inches thick, hollow, and about 12 inches in diameter. It sits nicely in a hole cut in the middle of the top to the pot mentioned above. There is a water inlet on the outside of the doughnut and there are four fan spray nozzles located on the bottom pointing towards an imaginary spot below the middle of the center of the hole in the doughnut. Our water is pumped by a pump similar to the kind in the self serve car wash places. It provides 750 psi of water pressure per nozzle


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## Scrapper-aw-

It looks kind of like a little innertube made of steel with four nozzles on the bottom of the inside of the innertube aiming at the center. I don't have a picture of it. Sorry.


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## 4metals

The difference between what you described and a full fledged water atomizer is how the molten metal is delivered to the spray pattern. To get smaller particle size you need a constant delivery of molten metal. I've seen it done using a crucible with a critical orifice in it positioned over the center of something similar to the donut you've described. The molten metal flows out of a single hole about 1/4 inch in diameter or less and is shattered by the water pressure. I'd bet by experimenting with orifice diameter and pressure you could atomize with your setup. Nice job!


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## Refiner232121

I am thinking about making an atomizer with plumbing pipes and drilling it and them soldering it
What do you folks think
These pipes are galvanized steel and coated with zinc if I am not wrong

I will re-paint the pipe or is it not neccesary.
After it it welded and drilled will this be a problem like rust from the pipes contaminating the batch of gold


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## qst42know

Because this is before the gold is digested I don't think it will be a problem.


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## Lou

The gold can NOT contact any of the metal. It should only touch refractory materials (i.e. ceramics and graphite) which are not wetted.

Otherwise it'll braze so quick your head'll spin!


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## goldsilverpro

I've mentioned this several times and have never even gotten a comment. Has anyone ever tried pouring the metal directly into a stirrer propeller that is submerged a few inches under water in a stainless vessel? I have and it works great. I once carved about a 4" propeller out of hardwood, drilled a hole in it, and attached it to a threaded rod chucked it into a drill. Very simple. I got super small shot. I don't know if it would stick to a stainless prop, but I would doubt it.

An ancient metal of fine shotting is to put a board a few inches under the water, at an angle, and pour the metal directly onto the board. I have never tried this but I've read about it in about 50 different places.


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## Barren Realms 007

goldsilverpro said:


> I've mentioned this several times and have never even gotten a comment. Has anyone ever tried pouring the metal directly into a stirrer propeller that is submerged a few inches under water in a stainless vessel? I have and it works great. I once carved about a 4" propeller out of hardwood, drilled a hole in it, and attached it to a threaded rod chucked it into a drill. Very simple. I got super small shot. I don't know if it would stick to a stainless prop, but I would doubt it.
> 
> An ancient metal of fine shotting is to put a board a few inches under the water, at an angle, and pour the metal directly onto the board. I have never tried this but I've read about it in about 50 different places.



It's funny you mention that about the board under the water. I have had the same thought only with a SS sheet angled into the water with an ice cold water flow down the face of it to the water. Would this not give you flatter shot when you poured it? I don't think the metals will stick to the surface of it is polished.


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## qst42know

I suspect wood being porous and full of water would create localized steam explosions further shattering any drops of metal that contacted it. Wood may be a better choice than stainless.


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## 4metals

Years ago, when I was first making shot I used the submerged board trick, worked very well and the board barely charred. It lasted a long time. I figured if wood is good, stainless is better. Wrong! What a mess, the gold stuck to the submerged stainless, angled just like the wood, and made a mess. Needless to say that refining lot had some stainless in it as well. 

Lou is right, stay away from metal, stick with the wood.


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## Refiner232121

I would like to Preparing my Metals for Digestion
I must admit that the term atomizer is something I never heard before
Anyhow I want to have powder like gold for digestion like Scrapper-aw- 

I made a picture with photoshop and it should have been done with a 3D software
but this was easier and I think you can get my idea across

In this picture I start with an empty garbage can with maybe few inches of water in the bottom
The water for the atomizer(dougnut shaped metal) is turned on and I start pouring 
I was thinkg that this idea would work

I cant understand what Lou means here


> The gold can NOT contact any of the metal. It should only touch refractory materials (i.e. ceramics and graphite) which are not wetted.
> 
> Otherwise it'll braze so quick your head'll spin!



I would like more on Gsps idea

I just got a comment from 4metals
He says stay away from metal


I already bought the plumbing pipes but I can always return them back
It was only 20 dollars

So I need a new plan
Back to the drawing board


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## Refiner232121

I forgot this 
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6973/atomizerz.jpg


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## goldsilverpro

I wouldn't use a galvanized (or bare steel or plastic) garbage can. A pin hole in the zinc or a place where the zinc didn't cover well (like where the bottom meets the sides) and you will end up with rust mixed with your metal. The best, of course, is stainless. I've seen people use such things as SS beer kegs with the top cut out, but they're not quite deep enough for my likes. The best I've ever used is a 55 gal SS nitric drum with the top cut out. To buy one of these drums new is prohibitively expensive, but sometimes you can scrounge one, maybe in a scrap yard. Also, you could try to find a scrap dealer that specializes in used SS restaurant equipment - they'll usually have something that will work. No matter what you use, make sure it is deep enough so the metal is not molten when it hits the bottom. If it is molten, like Lou said, you will get instant brazing of the metal to the SS (or, most any other metal). Once the metal sticks to the stainless, things cease to be fun. In most cases, your tank will end up ruined. For standard shot, you can attach 4 long SS wires to a SS colander (pick one with small holes) nearly as wide as the tank, sitting on the bottom, to catch the shot. Makes it a lot easier to remove the shot.


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## golddie

Hi Cris
Then it would be a bad idea to use plumbing pipes to make the doughnut shaped object


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## golddie

Hi Chris
Maybe I can build something like this 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://imghost.indiamart.com/data/3/J/MY-145126/Barrel-Stirrer_250x250.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.indiamart.com/company/145126/other-products.html&usg=__ja0kQBm48H__IGLqA1DiNk7BQCc=&h=240&w=240&sz=18&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=CYEOXz-RMZUI2M:&tbnh=110&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dstirrer%2Bpropeller%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

A plastic barrel and cut a hole in the center and pour with the stirrer working



> So our solution was to construct a spray nozzle aray in the shape of a doughnut. It is constructed of steel, is about 2.5 inches thick, hollow, and about 12 inches in diameter. It sits nicely in a hole cut in the middle of the top to the pot mentioned above. There is a water inlet on the outside of the doughnut and there are four fan spray nozzles located on the bottom pointing towards an imaginary spot below the middle of the center of the hole in the doughnut. Our water is pumped by a pump similar to the kind in the self serve car wash places. It provides 750 psi of water pressure per nozzle. When the molten metal is poured into the converging streams of water it is cut into sand size particles. Some particles are so small that they remain suspended in the water for quite some time.



I am wondering how Scrapper-aw-
made his


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## goldsilverpro

> Then it would be a bad idea to use plumbing pipes to make the doughnut shaped object


If there is any chance of molten metal coming in contact with any other metal, it's a bad idea.


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## golddie

> So our solution was to construct a spray nozzle aray in the shape of a doughnut. It is constructed of steel, is about 2.5 inches thick, hollow, and about 12 inches in diameter. It sits nicely in a hole cut in the middle of the top to the pot mentioned above. There is a water inlet on the outside of the doughnut and there are four fan spray nozzles located on the bottom pointing towards an imaginary spot below the middle of the center of the hole in the doughnut. Our water is pumped by a pump similar to the kind in the self serve car wash places. It provides 750 psi of water pressure per nozzle. When the molten metal is poured into the converging streams of water it is cut into sand size particles. Some particles are so small that they remain suspended in the water for quite some time.



How about making the doughnut shaped object from galvanized pipes and drill holes and cove it with plastic and use a plastic garbage can


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## goldsilverpro

> A plastic barrel and cut a hole in the center and pour with the stirrer working


Similarly, if there is any chance of molten metal coming in contact with the plastic, it's a bad idea. 

Also, after thinking about it, if you use a propeller, I wouldn't take a chance and use a metal one. You could carve a prop out of hardwood. Or, you could probably just drill a fairly tight hole for the threaded rod in a piece of hardwood about 3/4" x 3/4" (or, 1" x 1") by 4" or 5" long. You could use a nut and washer (SS would be best) on each side of the wood to keep it from slipping. You might have to trim it a bit to balance it and keep the shaft from wobbling. The threaded rod should probably be at least 3/8". Here again. SS would be best, if you can find it. A smooth SS rod with threads on one end would work well also.


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## goldsilverpro

I suppose anything could be used, except something that would rust, if it's big enough so the metal has cooled before it comes in contact with anything. Also, the smaller the pieces of metal are, the faster they cool.


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## PreciousMexpert

Hi Cris
I didn't think that a bit of rust would be a problem before refining
Wouldnt the acids take care of the rust
Then you cant use plumbing pipes because you have to drill it and it will rust
How about using copper or brass
I have seen these in my hardware or like you said stainless steel would be the best and cover it so molten metal doesn't stick to it


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## goldsilverpro

> I didn't think that a bit of rust would be a problem before refining
> Wouldnt the acids take care of the rust
> Then you cant use plumbing pipes because you have to drill it and it will rust
> How about using copper or brass
> I have seen these in my hardware or like you said stainless steel would be the best and cover it so molten metal doesn't stick to it


I guess you're right, but why add a bunch of iron to the mix? Why not keep it as clean as possible to start with. Rust can build up very quickly in large amounts in a steel tank.


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## golddie

how about making the doughnut shape object from copper 
I webt to my hardware and they had pipes that were about 3 quarters of an inch.
Not 2 inches like scrapper-aw- said

Also I am thinkg about using a plastic garbage can and attaching the pipe like this picture
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6973/atomizerz.jpg

I have seen molten silver being pour into cold water in a plastic bucket 
I said I can even cover the doughnut shape pipe with plastic in case there is brazing problems


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## Refiner232121

Scrapper-aw-


> is about 2.5 inches thick, hollow, and about 12 inches in diameter
> It provides 750 psi of water pressure per nozzle.



I checked out the hole of a pressure pump suitable for this kind of a job
3000 psi 
and it was about a quarter inch hole.

I would say that 


> 3 quarters of an inch copper


golddie

would be ok


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## Scrapper-aw-

Sorry for being away for so long......been very busy at work.

There seems to be interest in what our doughnut is made of..... 1/8 inch steel. .....and yes it does rust a little. The solution we found for this is just to run some water through it under pressure untill it runs clear. Our's is four 90* turn pipe pieces welded together. The plan was to duplicate it in 316 Stainless to eliminate the rust problem permenantly. We have bigger fish to fry!

Keep in mind that we are working with amounts large enough that the amount of iron or other contaminants picked up in this step is a fairly inconsequencial amount based on percentages.

I suppose other metals could work.....if the construction could handle the pressure. :mrgreen:


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## Lou

You might consider a ceramic piece.


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## MargueriteMingorance

goldsilverpro said:


> I wouldn't use a galvanized (or bare steel or plastic) garbage can. A pin hole in the zinc or a place where the zinc didn't cover well (like where the bottom meets the sides) and you will end up with rust mixed with your metal. The best, of course, is stainless. I've seen people use such things as SS beer kegs with the top cut out, but they're not quite deep enough for my likes. The best I've ever used is a 55 gal SS nitric drum with the top cut out. To buy one of these drums new is prohibitively expensive, but sometimes you can scrounge one, maybe in a scrap yard. Also, you could try to find a scrap dealer that specializes in used SS restaurant equipment - they'll usually have something that will work. No matter what you use, make sure it is deep enough so the metal is not molten when it hits the bottom. If it is molten, like Lou said, you will get instant brazing of the metal to the SS (or, most any other metal). Once the metal sticks to the stainless, things cease to be fun. In most cases, your tank will end up ruined. For standard shot, you can attach 4 long SS wires to a SS colander (pick one with small holes) nearly as wide as the tank, sitting on the bottom, to catch the shot. Makes it a lot easier to remove the shot.



How about a 55 gallon tank for making wine? $699

http://www.bayteccontainers.com/55-gallon-stainless-steel-wine-barrel-stock-tank-.html

Or keep your eye out for a used stainless steel milk tank. This 300 gallon tank sold for $180.

http://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemID=783&acctID=565


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## goldnugget77

I have made a doughnut shape with plumbing pipes 
they are brass and copper and I welded them with lead free solder that I bought from the hardware store
they look like lead solder but it says lead free and it has silver in it
I will test it soon 
The only thing I am concerned about is that will this things come apart while I am pouring the gold through it and all the gold gold scattered everywhere.
I dont think that the thicker pipes will come apart because there is plenty of solder but the thing that I am concerned about is the 4 small pipes that are the nozzles they soldered directly on top of the brass pipes(half inch regular plumbing pipes) 
These nozzles dont fit into anything they are just soldered 
Do you think that this could be problematic
http://img189.imageshack.us/f/83688905.jpg/


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## qst42know

What kind of pressure do you intend to run?

You may want to look into the engineering data for the pipe and fittings you are using.

I haven't shopped around but this place has all you would need to assemble this in stainless. Smaller pipe size will have a higher pressure rating but too small will affect your flow rate.


http://www.mcmaster.com/#ansi-specification-pipe-fittings/=a2ji2w


Edited for high pressure fittings.


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## Barren Realms 007

The fittings in the picture seem to be crimp on fittings not solder fittings.


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> I have seen molten silver being pour into cold water in a plastic bucket


I wonder----did they show the results when the molten silver is poured to quickly, or if too much is poured? 
Unless the depth of the container is hugely excessive, pouring molten metal to a container that is sensitive to heat is just plain damned stupid. It's not uncommon for the stream of metal to superheat the water in the near proximity to the point where steam is generated, shielding the molten metal from the water, resulting in molten metal hitting the bottom. 

You can pour molten metals, even gold, to a fragile glass container. The question is-----should you? 

Harold


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## goldnugget77

Hi Harold
I think the water would have to be running that's for sure.


Hi qst42know


> 750 psi of water pressure per nozzle.


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## qst42know

Heavy wall copper water pipe (Type K) is good to only 150psi. I think you may be building a grenade.  Without proper spray nozzles to restrict the flow you might not build explosive pressures, but I wouldn't want to be standing over it.

Far better to do it safe than to do it cheap.

McMaster Carr has a wide selection in easy to assemble threaded stainless with safe pressure ratings.


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## goldnugget77

Hi qst42know
What you are saying makes sense
The 4 nozzles that are made are small copper pipes that I solder with plumbing solder and I drilled small holes in it
They should screw in there so I don't have any threads holding that piece.
I have already made it so I am saying maybe I should test it but than again it could be dangerous.


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## golddie

qst42know
I have been doing research on Mcmasters web site.
These are the items I will need 
1) 90 degrees elbows page 9
1 1/2" ( I don't know why they don't have 2 inch wide elbows)

2) Threaded Pipe Nipples and Pipe page 6
2" 2" 6 1/2" Lengths

3) Spray nozzles ( there are a few styles to choose from flat,full cone,hallow cone,square)(which would be the best)
( what would be the best size I think 1/4")

4) Something to attache the hose to the atomizer(I don't have an idea about this 
I have already bought the system to spray the water I will check out exactly what the attachment looks like and I will let you know

I will also write the company and see what they say
Thanks


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## qst42know

Keep in mind I have not made one of these but I will help as much as I can.

Please excuse the crude drawing.

This is what I had in mind, 3 elbows, 4 tees, 6 nipples, a plug, and an adapter that fits your pressure hose.

Your pump should give some clues as to what ID size to chose. If the hose ID is 3/8" it should be OK for the fittings.

Spray nozzle selection is also based on what your pump can supply. There is such a broad range of spray nozzles (not necessarily in McMaster Carr) you may be best served contacting one of the manufacturers and discussing what you are trying to accomplish.

What is the gallon per minute rating your pump operates at?


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## Barren Realms 007

I don't think it will matter but this should be a loop so that the delivery volume will be the same and not have a possability of a pressure or volule drop in the last port. This can be done by adding a union to fit everything together.


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## qst42know

I don't suspect that would be a problem unless your pump was unable to deliver the volume the nozzles required. If your pump was able to produce 5gpm at 3000psi and the sum total of your nozzles was 4gpm at 3000psi. I think some back pressure would be necessary to balance what the exits will allow. If your nozzles were to large you would get a feeble spray. I would expect some restriction is necessary for balanced performance. 

Am I right in these assumptions?


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## Barren Realms 007

Yes you are right in your assumption. 

But if you try to deliver too much out of the nozzels you will have a pressure drop on the last nozzel or nozzel's. 

Anyone that has delt with a spray rig in farming or a large amount of air flow in a pressurized air system can tell you that. That is the reason for a loop system so you get even deliverance of your product.


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## goldnugget77

qst42know Barren Realms 007
Thanks for your help I appreciate it
http://img189.imageshack.us/i/83688905.jpg/
This is a design I already made it and I will scrap it without wasting more money and time on it 
It has many flaws and its not even completed
I have not attached the the
3 quarter of an inch threaded pipe
I would have to weld this 
so that the hose is connected to the atomizer
---------------------------

This is what I have purchased
http://www.ronapw.ca/3000.html
The hose from the machine is attached to a 
3 quarter of an inch threaded pipe



> 2.5 inches thick, hollow, and about 12 inches in diameter


I try to follow this plan and that took me off track
I dont need 2.5 inch think pipe because the 3 quarters of an inch is what the machine is using
Also that 


> doughnut


A few month ago I tried this with regular plumbing pipes and it was very difficult to have a round shape connected by threads like this model
At some point the threads stop turning and you cant fully screw the parts together 
http://img189.imageshack.us/i/83688905.jpg/

qst42know
I like that design and I agree with Barren about connecting the 2 ends
But I don't want another design that is similar to this
http://img189.imageshack.us/i/83688905.jpg/
If I am not wrong
with a small adjustment the 2 ends can be connected
I will work on this later 
Thanks again


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## qst42know

You could make this full circle with a pipe union, the difficulty is in keeping the frame small and alignment right with off the shelf threaded nipples.


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## Barren Realms 007

qst42know said:


> You could make this full circle with a pipe union, the difficulty is in keeping the frame small and alignment right with off the shelf threaded nipples.



To keep this in a small circle you are correct. However if you heat the pipe and bend it around something to make the circle and then drill and tap the pipe where you want the port's that might be possible.


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## goldnugget77

qst42know
I modified your design

http://img401.imageshack.us/i/sprayc.jpg/

I dont know how the last pipe will fit in there 
Last time as I said it didnt want to fit in and I got it in there partially 
and the positioning of the nozzles was a bit difficult to adjust

I would prefer to have every thing ready to assemble without doing any kind of work on the pipes like making the threads for the nozzle.

So I will write to Mcmaster and see what they say because locally its difficult to find a supplier and if I can have everything from there quickly than I will be happy about that
If I can have the thickness of the pipes at 3 quarters of an inch I think that will be OK
It not the size scraperAW used in his plan

I will let everyone know what Mcmaster says

I just wrote to Mcmaster


> Hi
> I would like to make something that looks like this in stainless steel
> It will be used as an atomizer
> I would need the following
> 3 elbows
> 5 tees
> 8 niplles
> 4 nozzles( these will fit into the 4 tees)( full cone spary nozzle)
> the diameter of the atomizer will be approx. 12 inches
> I am looking forward to hearing you soon
> I was at your site but I am not sure exactly what parts to order.
> Thank You
> 
> http://img401.imageshack.us/i/sprayc.jpg/


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## goldnugget77

I was on youtube to try learn about this powerwasher 
I learned that the engine parts are plastic which is bad 
I paid close to 700 dollars and someone bought a broken one for 50 dollars
Anyway I will go on craiglist and see if I can find a used one otherwise I am going to keep it
also I they supplied oil with the machine and there is nothing about that in the manual can someone tell me where the oil goes

I went to the craiglist web site and there is nothing like this here so I am going to keep it
Its a bummer that the engine parts are plastic but what can I do
Thanks


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## Barren Realms 007

The oil is for the gas engine, so be sure and get it put in before you start the engine or you will be buying a new one. You will find the plug to put the oil in at the bottom of the engine on one of the sides.


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## qst42know

goldnugget77 

Your modification will not work as there is no way to thread in the last piece in the assembly. That's the purpose of the union they couple with a nut and don't need to rotate the pipe to seal.

Do you have a hydraulic shop near you?

If you must have a full ring this may be easier to accomplish with stainless steel hydraulic compression fittings. You would need the 5 tee's but the corners would be bent pipe.


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## goldnugget77

qst42know
I think I will try your original design
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=6518&t=1
If it does not work I will try to find an alternative
Thanks


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## Barren Realms 007

goldnugget77 said:


> qst42know
> I think I will try your original design
> http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=6518&t=1
> If it does not work I will try to find an alternative
> Thanks



If you are not able to get the material to build this let me know and I will see what I can do for you since I have most of the material to build one. I am going to take a guess that you can build this out of 1/2" piping and possibly even 3/8" piping. It does not have to be made out of SS pipe it can be built out of black or galvanized pipeing. I have run hydraulic lines out of black pipe so it should hold up to what you are wanting to do.


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## goldnugget77

HI Barren 
I sent you an private message but it didn't go to you
I must have done something wrong 
I would be interested in an atomizer and if you have the parts and the nozzles that would bve good
The only thing is galvanized steel when its welded forms rust so if I can avoid that it would be good but 
scrapper said that he just runs the water a bit before he uses his atomizer
If you can give me a price maybe I can order this from you
Thanks very much


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## Barren Realms 007

goldnugget77 said:


> HI Barren
> I sent you an private message but it didn't go to you
> I must have done something wrong
> I would be interested in an atomizer and if you have the parts and the nozzles that would bve good
> The only thing is galvanized steel when its welded forms rust so if I can avoid that it would be good but
> scrapper said that he just runs the water a bit before he uses his atomizer
> If you can give me a price maybe I can order this from you
> Thanks very much



Let me see what I can do for you, I need to get some project's finished for some people before I can get it built and see how well it will work.


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## goldnugget77

Hi Barren 
Thanks for taking the time to answer
My preferred choice is stainless steel but I can also go for galvanized steel and black pipe.
An important thing to note is the part where the hose is attached to the atomizer because on end of the hose fits the machine and if you try to use the other end it doesnt fit it I dodnt know how that works
So I tried to fit the part that is attached to the gun and that is where the atomizer will be attached to the machine and it doesnt fit in there maybe its the threads 
I did this just to test 
Maybe on the manual it will talk more about this
http://www.ronapw.ca/pdf/RN3000_Manual_rev0.pdf
Thanks again


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## Barren Realms 007

goldnugget77 said:


> Hi Barren
> Thanks for taking the time to answer
> My preferred choice is stainless steel but I can also go for galvanized steel and black pipe.
> An important thing to note is the part where the hose is attached to the atomizer because on end of the hose fits the machine and if you try to use the other end it doesnt fit it I dodnt know how that works
> So I tried to fit the part that is attached to the gun and that is where the atomizer will be attached to the machine and it doesnt fit in there maybe its the threads
> I did this just to test
> Maybe on the manual it will talk more about this
> http://www.ronapw.ca/pdf/RN3000_Manual_rev0.pdf
> Thanks again



Yes if you would let me know what size pipe thread that it will be attaching to.


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## goldnugget77

Hi Barren 
I do want to have this thing made that's for sure
the size of the pipe on the gun is what I just measured with my gauge that is what I would need


22mm(that would be 7/8 of an inch)(OD outside diameter)
http://www.mcmaster.com
On this site I don't see this size along with other standard measurements but I think that would be pretty exact


The length of the pipe is 3/4 of an inch

the threads are CW
If you want give send me your e-mail by private message 

Thanks


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## Barren Realms 007

PM sent.

Thanks


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## goldnugget77

HI Barren 
Any news about the atomizer


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## Barren Realms 007

goldnugget77 said:


> HI Barren
> Any news about the atomizer



Waiting on info about the crucibles being used and other questions that were asked. Decisions on this have to be made before I can desighn and build it. You can't just build something without knowing the details of the material being used.


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## goldnugget77

Hi Barren
Any news on the atomizer


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## Barren Realms 007

Not yet, it will be the latter part of the week before I get to it. I will have to desighn the stand to hold the crucible when it is selected. Then the atomizer and how to hold it in place. I will post pictures when I get something strated on it. But I still have 3 other projects in front of it.


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## goldnugget77

Thats good
Thanks


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## goldnugget77

Hi Folks
I have purchased this machine but I am planning on using it indoors 
and in the manual it says that it is dangerous 
we know that the gas can kill

http://www.ronapw.ca/electric_products.html
I was thinking of using some kind of a cover over the exhaust outlet and letting the air go out the fume hood
This company makes electric but power of the psi is not the same
The one I bought is 3000psi
The electric one is 1900 ( I don't know if that is psi )

Can someone help me 
Should I return this and buy electric but I don't know if I will find something with 3000 psi 
or
should I try to make a cover for the exhaust fume


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## Barren Realms 007

It's runs off of electric.


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## jimdoc

In car repair shops they have a hose to vent a running vehicles exhaust outside.I would guess that the same could be done with anything,as long as you are sure it is working properly,and will stay working properly.

Jim


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## goldnugget77

Thanks for your idea Jim
Barren this is the actual model
http://www.ronapw.ca/3000.html


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## jimdoc

I have heard of many deaths from running stuff like that inside.So if you do try it with some kind of hose make sure you do it right.Maybe run it outside and get a longer hose to reach inside.

Jim


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## Barren Realms 007

Yea I figured that after I read it again. If it were me I would go with the electic one for what you are wanting to do if you can get the proper pressure out of it. I'll have to see how the nozzels work after I get that atomizer built and do some testing with the pessures to see what difference they make. If the gas one is the decision you can extend the exhaust out of the room. But I think the electric one will give morer reliable service over a longer period of time.


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## goldnugget77

Hi Jim
Its not possible to run it outside


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## goldnugget77

You are right about that Barren
With electric I will have a peace of mind.
The thing is I will only be using this for a short time during the day so maybe I can run a hose outside
am I ever confused


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## Barren Realms 007

goldnugget77 said:


> Hi Jim
> Its not possible to run it outside



Double check and see if the exhaust in not screwed in with a pipe nipple. If it is then you should be able to run it outside. If not an adapter could possibly be fabricate to convert from a plate to a pipe nipple.


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## goldnugget77

Hi Barren
I think I would like to exchange this for an electric




> Double check and see if the exhaust in not screwed in with a pipe nipple. If it is then you should be able to run it outside. If not an adapter could possibly be fabricate to convert from a plate to a pipe nipple.


This is something I don't understand


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## Barren Realms 007

goldnugget77 said:


> Hi Barren
> I think I would like to exchange this for an electric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Double check and see if the exhaust in not screwed in with a pipe nipple. If it is then you should be able to run it outside. If not an adapter could possibly be fabricate to convert from a plate to a pipe nipple.
> 
> 
> 
> This is something I don't understand
Click to expand...


Email me


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## wrecker45

i know an auctioner who ran some garden tractors in his garage went outside for awhile got a headeack went inside for a nap and never woke up so be carefull


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## golddie

If an electric pressure washer was used than the psi would be about 1800 to 1900
So that would make each nozzle to have 475 psi
would it be a good idea to make the atomizer with 3 spray nozzles instead of 4


http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ecatalog/N-/No-64/Ntt-Stainless+Steel+nipples
If you look at he pipes here they say 150 psi
How come so low psi
would these pipes be able to carry 475 psi


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## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> If an electric pressure washer was used than the psi would be about 1800 to 1900
> So that would make each nozzle to have 475 psi
> would it be a good idea to make the atomizer with 3 spray nozzles instead of 4
> 
> 
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ecatalog/N-/No-64/Ntt-Stainless+Steel+nipples
> If you look at he pipes here they say 150 psi
> How come so low psi
> would these pipes be able to carry 475 psi



That is what they are rated for at industry standard. However they will hold a lot more pressure than that. Although it is at the customers responsablity. I have run black piping for hydraulic lines in the past. Had one piece split at the seam one time. Type K copper tubing is rated at 150 psi if I remember right but it will hold 350 and up because this is the pressure of an HVAC line set during operation. I don't remember what the new 410 systems run at but it is higher than that. I have seen copper tubing hold 45o PSI with no problem. However if you run these pressures it is at your own risk when you go above the mfg. recomendations.


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## qst42know

At least consider the Parker fittings for higher pressure ratings.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ecatalog/N-1z0r52t/Ntt-Stainless+Steel+nipples

If a bit of crud blocks a nozzle or two and you will get a fast spike of pressure.


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## Barren Realms 007

It will be taken into consideration. Thanks


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## goldsilverpro

golddie said:


> If an electric pressure washer was used than the psi would be about 1800 to 1900
> So that would make each nozzle to have 475 psi



I've thought about this since you wrote it. Wouldn't the pressure be constant in an arrangement like this - 1800 to 1900 psi at each nozzle? The flow would be additive. Analogous to voltage and amperage in a series circuit.


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## Barren Realms 007

goldsilverpro said:


> golddie said:
> 
> 
> 
> If an electric pressure washer was used than the psi would be about 1800 to 1900
> So that would make each nozzle to have 475 psi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought about this since you wrote it. Wouldn't the pressure be constant in an arrangement like this - 1800 to 1900 psi at each nozzle? The flow would be additive. Analogous to voltage and amperage in a series circuit.
Click to expand...


Yes you are correct it should be.


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## HAuCl4

goldsilverpro said:


> golddie said:
> 
> 
> 
> If an electric pressure washer was used than the psi would be about 1800 to 1900
> So that would make each nozzle to have 475 psi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought about this since you wrote it. Wouldn't the pressure be constant in an arrangement like this - 1800 to 1900 psi at each nozzle? The flow would be additive. Analogous to voltage and amperage in a series circuit.
Click to expand...


Do not waste another thought. It is *exactly* as you posted. The only issue is the volume/flow that the pump is capable of. For low flow pumps one can build an "hydraulic capacitor", which is a simple hi-pressure air/water tank with enough volume to handle the whole atomizing job. This allows a small, cheaper pump to handle almost any size job.8)

edit: I see barren beat me to the answer... :shock:


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## golddie

Gsp you have given this subject a new perspective





> "hydraulic capacitor", which is a simple hi-pressure air/water tank


HAuCl4 
what would this setup look like


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## Refiner232121

Than a power washer delivering 750 psi with 4 nozzles will be enough
But it should not be low flow


then the gpm is important here


> GPM: Gallons per minute or flow rate is



http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200402931_200402931?cm_ite=313122&cm_pla=Pressure%20Washers%3EElectric-Cold%20Water&cm_cat=SMARTER&cm_ven=Aggregates

Can someone tell me if I am correct here and if yes than what should be the GPM for something like this


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## Barren Realms 007

Refiner232121 said:


> Than a power washer delivering 750 psi with 4 nozzles will be enough
> But it should not be low flow
> 
> 
> then the gpm is important here
> 
> 
> 
> GPM: Gallons per minute or flow rate is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200402931_200402931?cm_ite=313122&cm_pla=Pressure%20Washers%3EElectric-Cold%20Water&cm_cat=SMARTER&cm_ven=Aggregates
> 
> Can someone tell me if I am correct here and if yes than what should be the GPM for something like this
Click to expand...


Uhhh, that is going to be a little over kill.

View attachment atomizer study.pdf


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## Refiner232121

Hi Barren
I looked through that pdf and thanks.
how would you summarize what was written there
how many psi and how many gpm for something like what we are talking about


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## qst42know

If someone wanted to delve into the technical aspects of the science of spray system design, this link is excellent.

It also has contact information for help. 8) 

I'll warn you ahead of time the whole site and field is huge.

http://www.spray.com/cat70/index.html

Home page:

http://www.spray.com/


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## Refiner232121

Hi qst42know
They might be able to help us 
I will write to them
Thanks


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## Barren Realms 007

Refiner232121 said:


> Hi Barren
> I looked through that pdf and thanks.
> how would you summarize what was written there
> how many psi and how many gpm for something like what we are talking about



There are a lot of different variables that go into this.


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## HAuCl4

golddie said:


> Gsp you have given this subject a new perspective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "hydraulic capacitor", which is a simple hi-pressure air/water tank
> 
> 
> 
> HAuCl4
> what would this setup look like
Click to expand...


In the other thread this is discussed, 4metals suggested using 4 pressure cleaners. This maybe a cheaper option, because high pressure tanks are expensive. In the pressure tank option, you calculate how much volume you need for the complete atomizing job, and then proceed to fill the tank with enough water and pressured air, so that when you open a valve the water is released through the nozzles.

In that same thread there are some specs of the "atomizer". What are the specs for the machine you bought?. You may need little else or a lot more equipment, depending on what you already have.


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## Refiner232121

Hi HAuCl4
Thanks for that info 
I never knew that a thread like that existed 
Can you or someone else give me the link to that

I just found this 
99.5%? Is it possible?
Maybe I will find my answer there

I looked through this newly found thread and I was not able to find much help
This is from 4metals


> I do know that I've personally seen manifolds supplied with 5000 psi of pressure with 4 individual 1250 psi nozzles at 1.4 gpm coming off to form the 4 nozzle arrangement to atomize the metals.


This is getting confusing
HAuCl4
where in the thread does 4metals explain the setup


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## HAuCl4

Refiner232121 said:


> Hi HAuCl4
> Thanks for that info
> I never knew that a thread like that existed
> Can you or someone else give me the link to that
> 
> I just found this
> 99.5%? Is it possible?
> Maybe I will find my answer there



I'm sure you'll find a lot of answers there, maybe even on other topics that you didn't know you had questions about, as well. 8)

In that thread there is a link to yet another thread where another member discusses his equipment, and shows photographs of some crudely atomized material. (more like fine shot). It is all there, but not in one coherent piece. Maybe you can make a summary of everything and post a summary document right here?. You can even add diagrams. It is damn simple. :lol:


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## Refiner232121

Hi HAuCl4
I was there today and I wasn't able to get any new info I will continue again later on 
I noticed you writing about the miller process and that is something fantastic
Thanks


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## golddie

> (1987 psi, 10 gal/min).


The psi is something that can be found locally but the gpm is a problem
Usually the machines at the hardware are 1.4 gpm
I asked the hardware about higher gpm and the guy wasn't able to help much and he said that even if you have a more powerful machine you would need to use a very thick hose
but this is just his opinion and he said he didnt know about those things
So what happens now


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## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> (1987 psi, 10 gal/min).
> 
> 
> 
> The psi is something that can be found locally but the gpm is a problem
> Usually the machines at the hardware are 1.4 gpm
> I asked the hardware about higher gpm and the guy wasn't able to help much and he said that even if you have a more powerful machine you would need to use a very thick hose
> but this is just his opinion and he said he didnt know about those things
> So what happens now
Click to expand...


I think you are going to find that the volume that is put out by the one you have is going to be sufficent once everything is in place and operating.


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