# HCL - CL



## Anonymous (Jul 4, 2008)

I used this to remove the plating from cheap fashion jewerly today and it appears to have done a very nice job.

I placed the jewerly in a tall glass container and place about 2 inches of HCl, then poured in clorox when it foamed up and removed the flash plating almost instantly down to the white metal layer. I removed the first batch, replace and continued this to process a full 3 lbs worth of the costume jewerly. I know that I did not get every little bit but from looking at the stuff I got 95 percent of the plating. Also, some was very heavily plated and I seperated the pieces that did not strip in the foam up to reprocess in a batch of thier own. It did not take very much acid more clorox than anything. 

My main question is I have a precip that looks like salt in the solution, I am assuming it is salt NaCl from the clorox.

Also will it stop off gassing chlorine on its own eventually? I am not in a hurry as I plan to got to some yard sales and such to get some more jewerly. 

It would not go bad if I just leave it set will it?

Jim


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## Lou (Jul 4, 2008)

My only concern James is that by dissolving away the gold off the surface, you expose the gold ion in solution to the base metal strike that had previously been underneath the gold. Tell me, is the solution really taking a yellow hue?


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## Anonymous (Jul 4, 2008)

Lou it is a bright pretty yellow, There was a really white metal underneath the gold and the solution was only in contact with the jewerly for the time the solution foamed up. I do not know if any of the white metal went into solution, I am also assuming that some of it did. I 
know the jewerly was yellow at the start and a really white silver after wonder if it could be rhodium under it. A few of the pieces did show a based metal that looked like lead underneat but there was only a couple most were easy to see the gold was gone and they were still bright and shiny but that white silver color afterwards.

Jim

Lou I only paid 5 bucks for the whole lot. I hope to get some more then I will finish process to see how much gold I get. I will then post a picture of the button.

I also process some gold plated glasses, plates and a lamp today.


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## Pilgrim2850 (Jul 4, 2008)

Jim,

I would like to know what you did with the glasses and plates. I've been collecting them but haven't done anything with them yet. Is the gold directly on the plate or is it plated with copper or something? Did you do them in muriatic and clorox?

thanks,
larry


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## Anonymous (Jul 4, 2008)

The ones that had boxes with them said 22kt gold plated. I just used a wide plastic container and swished them around a little bit, the gold came right off maybe 10 secounds or so. The lamp was the best, I think the plating was thick on it because it took a lot longer to get it all off.
I wish I could find more of them, it had a 2 inch wide band all the way around the bottom and 2 handles that were totally covered.

On the plates there was nothing left when the gold was gone, on the jewerly all of it but 3 pieces had a silver coating underneath that appeared to be the same white silver color as silver and did not appear to be affected by the hcl-cl.


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## Harold_V (Jul 5, 2008)

james122964 said:


> on the jewerly all of it but 3 pieces had a silver coating underneath that appeared to be the same white silver color as silver and did not appear to be affected by the hcl-cl.


Nickel is commonly plated under gold to prevent migration of the gold to the base metal. I'm thinking that's what you're seeing. 

Nickel is somewhat yellow when compared to chrome or silver---if that helps any. If you're curios enough to test, dissolve a trace with hot nitric, add a drop of ammonium hydroxide to the test sample (which is also one drop), then add a drop of DMG (dimethylglyoxime). The blue solution should turn brilliant pink. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jul 5, 2008)

Harold,

I was thinking nickel also. I do not think I will bother testing because if it was rhodium why would there be gold over it? I think when they plate with rhodium it would be for the rhodium appearance.

I picked up some more today at local yard sales about a lb of raw material for 3 bucks. I am going to process this then drop the gold and see if I get enough to keep this up.

Will let you know.

Jim


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## Harold_V (Jul 5, 2008)

Jim,

I'm not optimistic-----the gold layer on such material must be only millionths-----but then if you can get enough of it----and it can be stripped cheaply---why not? 

I have to work hard at keeping the notion that this is a hobby for most folks. You'd starve to death with material like that if you relied on it for a living------but some things are fun. I also haven't lost sight of the idea that, if for no other reason, you do them because they are a challenge. 

One of the finest moments of my refining years was when they were finishing Symphony Hall in Salt Lake City, Utah. O.C. Tanner, a huge jewelry manufacturing firm in the city, had donated all the needed gold leaf to cover a huge concrete wall that is at the rear of the stage. Under the floor, at the base of the wall, is the huge return air plenum for air conditioning and heating. Being late summer, it was in operation, sucking almost all the gold into the chamber. I won't trouble you with details, but Susan and I ended up cleaning up after the gold leaf was installed. I recall that I recovered 2 5/16 ounces of gold from the operation, and we spent less than 8 hours on the cleanup. Our time was well spent, and we had the joy of salvaging what surely would have ended up in a dumpster. You likely understand that we picked up a lot of dirt along with the gold. 

Sometimes you do things because you can! I see the junk jewelry in that light. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jul 5, 2008)

Harold, you are right on how thin that stuff is. I finished the additional material I got yesterday. 

I dropped the gold and man the amount was tiny, now I know why it stripped when I just let it bubble up the coating was so thin. The bead ended up so small my camera could not get a picture of it that was clear enough to see. I guess I should by a new camera but pictures are not that important to me.

I tried the flash strip method with electronic scrap that was a no - go the coating must be much thicker than costume jewerly. It was however an excellent learning opportunity.

I will not be buying anymore fashion jewerly though, I just can not believe that gold can be so thin and still look like gold.

As an asside and while I had the torch out today I melted a punch of electronic scrap into an anode and I am going to try using a copper cell to clean it up, another learning experience :lol: .

So to anyone out there thinking of costume jewerly, way bad idea, if you are doing it for anything other than to learn.

Jim


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## Harold_V (Jul 6, 2008)

james122964 said:


> As an asside and while I had the torch out today I melted a punch of electronic scrap into an anode and I am going to try using a copper cell to clean it up, another learning experience :lol: .


That, too, will have perfectly predictable results. The level of contamination in the metal will cause the copper to collect as sponge, shedding from the cathode and contaminating the slimes. 

I think you'll find it doesn't work well----but if you have a high level of copper, with contamination being primarily values, that may not be the case. I expect zinc will be one of your problems. If your experience parallels mine, it will be a good one in that you'll better understand things that don't work. 

How about another report?

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jul 6, 2008)

Harold, I already planned on the spongy copper deposit, I am going to spilt the cell with a piece of filter paper serving as a salt bridge. I figure the gold will not dissolve and will accumulate in the bottome of the anode side while the copper, zinc, etc ions will go the cathode side be reduced and not be able to migrate back through the filter paper so it would be isolated from the gold side. Even nickel that will not actually plate and zinc will be stuck on the cathode side.

I have been playing the plating out process still of and on. I am demolishing 1 house, building another and work 55 - 60 hours a week so things go slow, then a small burst of activity when time permits.

I will post when I run the cell. I have to go to tractor supply and get some copper sulfate to get things going.

I am also going to build a .5 volt 35 amp power supply after I see that it works as I plan. I have a transformer from an amanda micro wave that I rewired to make a small spot welder. I will just pull the secondary winding out up them to #4 or so to get the voltage. I also have high amp diodes from microwaves to make the bridge and capacitors to smooth the DC output.

Jim


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## Harold_V (Jul 6, 2008)

james122964 said:


> Harold, I already planned on the spongy copper deposit, I am going to spilt the cell with a piece of filter paper serving as a salt bridge. I figure the gold will not dissolve and will accumulate in the bottome of the anode side while the copper, zinc, etc ions will go the cathode side be reduced and not be able to migrate back through the filter paper so it would be isolated from the gold side. Even nickel that will not actually plate and zinc will be stuck on the cathode side.



That may well be key to success, Jim. I built my cell with alternate anode/cathode plates, roughly a half dozen or so of each, so I didn't have that option at my disposal. You may have used more wisdom than I did. I simply emulated conventional design, not thinking of the consequences. 

Luck with the venture! I fully understand how a busy schedule makes it difficult to achieve results. Sounds like the story of my life! :lol: 

I spend all my waking hours, aside from the two boards I moderate, working on our house. I don't think anyone can understand what it's like to build a house until it is in their hands. It's an overwhelming project, assuming the work is not subbed out. Almost none of ours has been. Concrete and the exterior finish only. We've done the rest without help. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, I was planning on working on this today, but, first thing this morning I am called out to work at the store that is 2.5 hours away from my home.
Oh, well, here we go again.

Jim


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## Wyndham (Jul 6, 2008)

Harold, this is a bit OT to the thread but your story about the gold leaf reminded me of a fellow I met on a bus in Pittsburg Pa in the early 70's. He was a gold leaf craftsman from eastern Europe hired to re"leaf" a Russian church dome in Pittsburg. In the story he related to me, he brought the gold over from Europe wrapped as a sausage and he dressed like a worker or laborer, but carried(at $32.oz)some many pounds of finely hammered goldleaf. A good story or the truth, I believed him and there was a beautiful goldleaf Russian Orthodox onion dome I past by each day for about a month.
later Wyndham


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## Blacktoadd (Sep 21, 2008)

1, will SMB drop Gold while bleach is still insolution in any significant quantities

2, Doesn't heating the solution drive off the Bleach. Again, is it necessary, as done in AR to revove the Nitric?

3. I had some very black ore with lots of pyrite in it. It was disolving slowly to drop the pyrite, where the green ore drops the pyrite quickly. The solution turned loose of the pyrites and disolved them quite quickly. The solution turned greeen. Here in AZ there are 5 different types of Pyrite containing significant Gold and Silver. A White powder was left behind as well. Does AP leave behind a white precipitate as does AR. 
I suppose I will need to drop out the copper before SMB can be used to drop any gold?


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## Blacktoadd (Sep 21, 2008)

"What is a good source and material for electrowinning copper from copper chloride solution, or is there a better way of getting the copper isolated from all the other metals. 
Bruce


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## Anonymous (Sep 21, 2008)

I think it is better to convert it to copper sulfate before electrowinning.
then you would cut down on lead content


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## Shecker (Sep 21, 2008)

Many years ago I ran across a line of very expensive jewelry sold only in high caliber places that was unmarked as to Au content but very heavy. I found it was a gold plate on lead. The manufacture, whose name I do not remember, was a French firm.

Randy in Gunnison


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## Anonymous (Sep 21, 2008)

Trafari?


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## Blacktoadd (Sep 21, 2008)

Nickle is used under gold, and chrome. Nickle is where the shine comes from. Nickle is one of the best baths to provide a mirror finish on a base metal. Gold will be to thin to cover up the base metal and give the shine. Chrome does extremely if any producing of a shine. Put it on a dull surface and it will come out dull, on a shiny surface it will come out shiny. Where chrome shines, is in protecting the shine made by the nickle. Nickle rapidly becomes dull, scratches easily, all types of things affect it. Nickle is also yellow compared with chrome. 
"to srip chrome is easy." make up a weak caustic bath (caustic soda or a a caustic soap, dip in the chromed part, make it the anode, turn on a little power, maybe approx 6 volts, scrap steel is ok for the anode. yellow will start immediately rising with the bubbles. The bubbles will burn your skin and mucous membranes, eyes, lungs. Chrome will be off in minutes, and nickle will not be hurt. if it is over aluminum or a cheap base metal and nickle has been breached there will be a pit there when done. Now you have produced an environmental hazard of chromium equal to how big a stripping job you did. Nickle may be re polished to a fine finish and re plated. 
Bruce


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## Blacktoadd (Sep 21, 2008)

HCl peroxide, then HCl Bleach gets me to the values 

May need fine grind and roast to break down the pyrite and sulfer.

1) Straight HCl and HCl with Peroxide. At this point I haven't hurt any of the values (much if any).

2) Move on to HCl bleach or turn into AR to get at values. 

3) Allowing initial solutions if to evaporate almost till Cu drops out. All kinds of undesireables drop out. put solution into tank in corner and let plate away. Will plate, melt and replate in proper sulfate electrowinning bath for purification and to recover any values that made it this far. Like most things, sounds simpler than it is I am finding. May evaporate, remove rude contaminations. Evaporate to end, smelt, then plate one time, instead of trying to drop all values from copper contaminated solutions one at a time from, from plating sludge may be easier. Iron, copper and others will be gone after first firing of fluxed sludge. 
Any suggustions for improvement, besides getting out while I can now!
Bruce


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## Anonymous (Sep 21, 2008)

what kind of ore are you processing? if it is a sulfite, or sulfide I think that you can electrolyze it directly, at least I remember reading something like that on the internet. Is it a copper ore?


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## Blacktoadd (Sep 22, 2008)

I belong to a gold claim club with over 200 claims in AZ most of the people pan, dry pan , metal detect for nuggets. I am setting up to process hard rock, dirt, and what ever. I Collect any type of ore I can find. I am going to powderize the stuff, and I am building equipment to separate by specific gravity. Most of the stuff here is high in copper. If I have to remove it, I dump it in a tank and plate it out over in the corner. A low labor device produces a little money with almost no effort. I need to fiind anodes that dont erode so fast. I am going to buy a used titanium anode basket and bag, Yes I think I can plact from some of this ore, actually looking for the left over's. A lot of the pyrites are High in Gold and silver. This will be powderized and roasted. The separator I am making will also leave behind the platinum elements that are not soluable in acids. They are the big money ones. I will collect any metalics not soluable and then figure out what to do with them. Magnification is finding metalics in the mudd that gets thrown out. The insoluable metals I read would be there.


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## Blacktoadd (Sep 22, 2008)

i dont know if it has been talked about here or not. I used to be a plater. In the "METAL FINISHING GUIDE", the bible for platers and suppplies, they have created baths that a plater can save his ass with. When you have a defective plat on an expensive item you can get it off without harming the base metal. Useing a product like this many metals can be removed without disolving so much base metal. Some of you might like to look into it, like getting silver off of brass or base metal things. Without disolving the whole item.


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## OMG (Sep 23, 2008)

Just to let you know blacktoadd, I used a titanium anode in a chloride cell and the titanium dissolved. I would have needed a MMO titanium anode for it to work properly. MMO = mixed metal oxide (ruthenium oxide, etc)


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## Blacktoadd (Sep 24, 2008)

Just checking if you ever sourced one, are they a million dollars? 

I am also checking to find out if there is a way to just get the copper chloride to drop out and get it into a state where I can smelt it. It is easy to get it into copper chloride crystols by evaporating it it drops out by the pound. It forms white crystols. I have some jars of it while I was looking for an anode that would hold up or a way to smelt.


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## Anonymous (Sep 24, 2008)

the cloride with electrical potential is going to erode just about anything that you use for an anode, not saying everything but close.

converting to sulfate is your best bet.

If your going to smelt the cloride you will most likely have HCL going up the flew. Seems harder than mixing with sulfuric and distilling to get reusable HCL, cathode copper and sulfuric acid to start all over with.

jim


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