# Alchemy Project



## Pirotechnia (Jul 27, 2011)

Dear members,

I am an historian of alchemy and interested in trying to repeat a certain operation described by an alchemist in the 1700-centuary and which briefly involves a kind of "non usual cupellation process". I have already conducted numerous of experiments in other lines (although none involving cupellation). I am not driven by a non critic belief in the veracity of alchemy but simply because of curiosity. And more over, such endavours would helps us to better understand the past and how these people were thinking. 

My intension is not to start a topic about alchemy. Not at all. And I respect that many in here might be rather allergic to this kind of topic, even though alchemy has nothing to do with witchcraft - as someone hinted in a previous posting (revaled by a quick look in the search field). I already, randomly, sent a PM to a certain person in this group, without reciving any answer (probably because that person thought that my intension was to find a co-partner in alchemist - if the process would turn out to be "successfull" one might consider it as a bonus 8) ). *NB: last sentence written with a portion of sarcasm.* 

The reason why I am writing this post is that I am interested to come in contact with someone with a great deal of exerpeince in cupellation and who has already a ready set up lab; building my own lab for this single purpose would certainly be very interesting but it will take some time, require a great deal of money and without not forgetting that the very art of cupellation is probably not mastered but after a couple (sic) of years. If you have also exprience in recovering gold and silver from mineral subjects (like gold ore, pyrites, galena), that would be an advantage!

So to sum it up, if you are a curious mind and interested in the history of metallurgy, chemistry, have a set up lab and some fairly good experience and knowledge of cupellation: please send me a PM.

Moderators: please feel free to move this topic, if you feel that it does not belong here. Thanks for your time and attension.

Best regards,
Pirotechnia


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Jul 27, 2011)

Are we allergic to Alchemy?..No way,man...Our Great Master,Gold Silver Pro(worldwide known as GSP),spent some time working with an alchemist,ask GSP...he will have some fascinating experiences to tell you,of course,if he wants to tell you.

Regards.

Manuel


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 27, 2011)

I moved this to the Bar and Grill section, a place where I feel it deserves to be.

I spent nearly 2 years of my life living and working in a huge building owned by a friend that wholly believed in the arcane art of alchemy and spent nearly every waking moment on his study and experiments. His long-term goal, of course, was to produce the philosopher's stone, which would give him eternal life - like Saint Germain and all the other ancients that he believed were still alive and kicking. The building was filled with almost every type of PM processing equipment (both large scale and small scale) known to man. There were also 3 labs and lots of furnaces, including 3 huge brand-new tilts he had built (waiting for when he learned to convert the ore he had to a "mature" state). There were many 100s of drums stacked up that contained ores that he just knew contained huge amounts of PMs - all in an immature state, of course - non-assayable by traditional means, of course. There were large alchemical symbols painted on the walls, probably with something like blood of newt. There was even a secret hidden alchemical library with several hundred ancient volumes. He had spent 30 or 40 years accumulating all this stuff. There was so much stuff that there were only narrow pathways to get around in the building. 

Daily, he spent hours preaching to me about the intricacies of the subject. The problem was, I never ever bought into it. When push came to shove, I was always a profane unbeliever, much to his disappointment. I enjoyed talking with him, reading the books, and playing with all of the equipment and ores, etc., and I must admit that I saw many things happen that were difficult to explain. I also admit that it was a fun (albeit, very weird) 2 years. I actually learned a lot.

I could write a book about this period but, out of respect to my friend, that's all I will say about it. Finis.


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## HAuCl4 (Jul 27, 2011)

Rumor has it that one of them Nicholas Flamel (spelling?) actually achieved both the stone and the elixir of life. I didn't know of Saint Germain. :shock:


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## glondor (Jul 27, 2011)

I think alchemists were just before their time. Everything they dreamed about and worked for will come to fruition some day. That engineering and science have progressed on a logarithmic scale only bodes well for us. I would NOT poo poo the idea of almost immortality being possible thru medical science and nano engineering within 50 years. We are an amazing species and the sky really is the limit of human achievement. 

We do need a more Renascence time to allow the thinkers to think and create. True capitalism removes innovation from the equation and can actually stifle progress but the human spirit will prevail over all in the end. After all...We are all made of stars.


Maybe I should do a TED talk....


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## dtectr (Jul 27, 2011)

glondor said:


> I think alchemists were just before their time. Everything they dreamed about and worked for will come to fruition some day. That engineering and science have progressed on a logarithmic scale only bodes well for us. I would NOT poo poo the idea of almost immortality being possible thru medical science and nano engineering within 50 years. We are an amazing species and the sky really is the limit of human achievement.
> 
> We do need a more Renascence time to allow the thinkers to think and create. True capitalism removes innovation from the equation and can actually stifle progress but the human spirit will prevail over all in the end. After all...We are all made of stars.
> 
> ...


What the hell are you talking about? You may have been to too many Renaissance Festivals, methinks  
Read about the real world of the Renaissance - it was a time of ignorance, filth, disease, exploitation, hunger, genocide - not the fictional, Romanticized world of the Victorians.

Wait a minute - I just read the world news. Maybe we're having a Renaissance _now_ & the poor of the earth just don't realize it. 

Just like the first one.
'Nuff said


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## glondor (Jul 27, 2011)

Never been to a Renascence festival. Never heard of them. What in your reply does not exist today? Just curious. Tell me where this isn't "it was a time of ignorance, filth, disease, exploitation, hunger, genocide"

I think the difference today is, for the most part profit or cost supersedes the quest for knowledge. Just an opinion.


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## Claudie (Jul 27, 2011)

glondor said:


> Never been to a Renascence festival. Never heard of them. What in your reply does not exist today? Just curious. Tell me where this isn't "it was a time of ignorance, filth, disease, exploitation, hunger, genocide"
> 
> _*I think the difference today is, for the most part profit or cost supersedes the quest for knowledge. Just an opinion.*_



I think many people are too busy these days, along with the cost, to work on too much extra....


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## Harold_V (Jul 27, 2011)

I take a little different approach to such matters. Like perpetual motion. Possible?

If you think so, I'm ok with that---but it has no place on a forum based on solid science (refining, for example). 

Anyone that understands the smallest amount of physics doesn't think perpetual motion is a possibility-----and science is not in the dark in how elements are formed. All of the cupelling and other pseudo science will fail----because it's not a matter of how you hold your mouth as you say the chant---it's a matter of incredible temperatures achieved when stars undergo their phases. If you've read the book Red Giants and White Dwarfs you already understand that, though, don't you! 

Call it what you wish---alchemy may not be witchcraft, but it's also not a science---it's the babbling of fools. Fools that refuse to be educated, and hold on to the absurd. 

Harold


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## NoIdea (Jul 28, 2011)

Just a thought, when stars are born, or was it when they blow up, cant remember which, but any how, at some point "elements" are formed. So really if matter is converted not destroyed, then anything could become anything. Hmmm so under the right condition, which may or may not be known, we could in theory produce, let say gold from ....., could we not?

Like i say, just a thought induced by this thread. :shock: 

Dean


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2011)

NoIdea said:


> Just a thought, when stars are born, or was it when they blow up, cant remember which, but any how, at some point "elements" are formed. So really if matter is converted not destroyed, then anything could become anything. Hmmm so under the right condition, which may or may not be known, we could in theory produce, let say gold from ....., could we not?
> 
> Like i say, just a thought induced by this thread. :shock:
> 
> Dean


Correct. *All you need* is something like 600 million degrees of temperature, which forms the heavy metals. Last time I checked, that's a little too hot to be contained in a carbon vessel! :lol: 

If this isnt clear, check out the book I mentioned. The elements are formed in three phases, starting with hydrogen. 

Harold


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## Lou (Jul 28, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> I moved this to the Bar and Grill section, a place where I feel it deserves to be.
> 
> I spent nearly 2 years of my life living and working in a huge building owned by a friend that wholly believed in the arcane art of alchemy and spent nearly every waking moment on his study and experiments. His long-term goal, of course, was to produce the philosopher's stone, which would give him eternal life - like Saint Germain and all the other ancients that he believed were still alive and kicking. The building was filled with almost every type of PM processing equipment (both large scale and small scale) known to man. There were also 3 labs and lots of furnaces, including 3 huge brand-new tilts he had built (waiting for when he learned to convert the ore he had to a "mature" state). There were many 100s of drums stacked up that contained ores that he just knew contained huge amounts of PMs - all in an immature state, of course - non-assayable by traditional means, of course. There were large alchemical symbols painted on the walls, probably with something like blood of newt. There was even a secret hidden alchemical library with several hundred ancient volumes. He had spent 30 or 40 years accumulating all this stuff. There was so much stuff that there were only narrow pathways to get around in the building.
> 
> ...




If he is still alive and perhaps broke from his endeavors, *I would very much like to buy his book collection*. While I don't subscribe to the Great Work and Archaic Arts, I study it from a historical perspective. But for the alchemists there'd be no chemistry.


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2011)

Lou said:


> I study it from a historical perspective. But for the alchemists there'd be no chemistry.


I agree. And, if there weren't those that began to sort fact from fiction, we wouldn't have nearly the understanding we have today. Witness those that still believe they can produce elements by chanting the right words, and including the eye of a newt in a solution. 

It's important to remain grounded and try to observe the laws of physics. We didn't *invent* them, we simply *observed* them. They are things that are known to be true due to vigilant observations and experiments. Not much we know, at least right now, is going to change that. 

Harold


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## NoIdea (Jul 28, 2011)

Hey ... ease up on the eye of newt, i got some in the pantry, have it with my fish and chips. :lol:


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2011)

NoIdea said:


> Hey ... ease up on the eye of newt, i got some in the pantry, have it with my fish and chips. :lol:


Chuckle!

They'r really cute little guys. We have them here, although rarely seen, and then only during early spring, when they venture out to mate. 



Harold


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## NoIdea (Jul 28, 2011)

Cool pic, real cute, shame they taste so good, just like ......... Chicken!! :shock: :lol: 

I used to collect gecco eggs as a kid and put them on the window sill inside. They ate the cockroaches, lots of fun.  

Is that little fella local?

Deano


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## Palladium (Jul 28, 2011)

I don't know if that's the same thing but around my neck of the woods we call them mud puppies. Please tell me your kidding about eating them. :shock:


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## Palladium (Jul 28, 2011)

Just noticed the difference. Both are from the salamander family. One has gills, one doesn't. lol


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2011)

NoIdea said:


> Cool pic, real cute, shame they taste so good, just like ......... Chicken!! :shock: :lol:


Heh! There's a variety here (the name escapes me) that's poisonous. They found a guy dead, years ago. He was camping. It appears that one had made its way to his coffee pot, where it was boiled in the process of making coffee, unbeknownst to the departed fellow. 

I must say, that's not a picture of the newts we have here, and offer an apology for misleading you. It's a long toed salamander, not a newt. I should have checked before posting, but he's cute as hell, as you suggested. 



> I used to collect gecco eggs as a kid and put them on the window sill inside. They ate the cockroaches, lots of fun.


Indeed! Sadly, we don't have them here, but I'd enjoy them if we did. 



> Is that little fella local?


Yes, along with several others. That includes the newt I mentioned. It's a California newt, and quite pretty. They are a dark brown color on top, with an orange belly. 

Harold


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## wrecker45 (Jul 28, 2011)

that looks like the red back salamanders we have here.


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## NoIdea (Jul 28, 2011)

do they taste anything like eye of newt :lol: :shock:


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## Pirotechnia (Jul 28, 2011)

If you should just read a single genuine text about alchemy in your entire life:

http://www.rexresearch.com/helvetius/helvetius.htm

If you are a restless soul start reading "chapter III".

The author, Helvetius, tells us how he was visited by a stranger in the year of 1666 and whom actually allowed himself to perform a transmutation of lead into pure gold. The gold, afterwards taken to the master goldsmith in the town, resisted all tests and tryals. Before this encounter, Heletius was known for being one of the most eager non believers of alchemy in his time and refused pretty much eveything about it in his learned books - he was a famous physician and doctor at the time. 

Finally, you may ask yourself a question: if YOU were about to discover the secret of transmuting lead into gold (we pretend that it's possible) - how would you handle this kind of information? The question and it's different answers is of equal relevance today as 400 years ago, nothing has changed. 

Regards,
Pirotechnia


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## glondor (Jul 28, 2011)

Not perpetual motion, however a very nice piece of machine shop work...Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
Check a video of it running. One would have to appreciate the skill and art that went in to this. 

http://www.google.ca/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=purpetual+motion+machine#pq=purpetual%20motion%20machine&hl=en&cp=26&gs_id=1n&xhr=t&q=Finsrud's%20Perpetuum%20Mobile&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Finsrud's+Perpetuum+Mobile&aq=0&aqi=g1g-v2&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=eefe8077e7d345a3&biw=1024&bih=673


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## HAuCl4 (Jul 28, 2011)

How does David Copperfield fly?. I didn't ask if he does fly, I asked HOW. I know it is a trick. :lol:


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## NoIdea (Jul 28, 2011)

not if he eats eye of newt, anything is posible with a good old newt or two. :shock: :lol: 

On a serious note: If i was to obtain the elixer of young, would my hair grow back, would the hair where it should not be hair disapear, will my ex-wife just vanish .. will ... will ...? ..... if so, then maybe we should all look into it.


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 28, 2011)

Pirotechnia said:


> If you should just read a single genuine text about alchemy in your entire life:
> 
> http://www.rexresearch.com/helvetius/helvetius.htm
> 
> ...



All total BS. All supposed started by Hermes Trismegistus. All this totally undecipherable arcane symbolism in the writings of the alchemists is supposedly used to protect the "secrets" from the profane. I've always felt it was to obscure the fact that everything was BS. I don't know what they mean, you don't know what they mean, and they didn't know what they mean. Sure, we can look up the meanings in an alchemy dictionary, but even the meanings are meaningless. Alchemy is a false religion built on faith. If you want to waste your life, spend it reading alchemical texts. You could read this stuff 16 hours a day for 10 years and you'll know no more than when you started. You make think you know a lot, but that's only an illusion.

These guys were sponsored by the wealthy and they relied on these sponsorships for their living. They could literally stretch one experiment out for 10 years while receiving monies from the sponsors all during this time. The society back then, as a whole, was trained to believe in this crap and to understand that it might take a lifetime of study and experimentation for them to come up with the philosopher's stone. This insured the alchemists a lifetime of sponsorship. The dangling carrot was that, when they did finally come up with the philosopher's stone, they would use it to produce untold wealth and eternal life, both of which would be shared by the sponsor. The Perfect Con. Probably the greatest Con ever perpetrated. It was so good that it lasted for centuries.

I'm not saying that the alchemists didn't believe their own BS - they surely did. However, the fact remains that not one of them ever transmuted anything into gold nor ever achieved eternal life, no matter what legend you read. But what do I know? I'm just a profane unbeliever. I have no faith in this crap. They will tell me that, because I have no real faith, it is impossible for me to truly understand.


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## HAuCl4 (Jul 28, 2011)

At least one of the objectives, transmuting mercury to gold (by particle bombardment), has been achieved. Extremely expensive to do, but it is done. Finished. Next!. :lol:

I like your explanation of the con GSP. It's very likely what went on.


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 28, 2011)

HAuCl4 said:


> At least one of the objectives, transmuting mercury to gold (by particle bombardment), has been achieved. Extremely expensive to do, but it is done. Finished. Next!. :lol:



My alchemist friend always said that there were 2 ways to open a door. You could blow it up 
(particle accelerator) or you could use a key (alchemy).

Fission and Fusion (blowing up the door) are both transmutation reactions, since you do end up with different elements. Cold fusion is using a key and I still think (or, at least, hope) that sort of approach is possible.

Same with medicine. Using chemotherapy, radiation therapy, or surgery for cancer is blowing down the door. Finding a less devastating alternative method that works (is there one?) is using a key. I have hopes in this, also.

These last 2 advances will never be made until the scientific and medical establishment's powers and monopolies are somehow reduced in this country.


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## Pirotechnia (Jul 28, 2011)

[deleted by Pirotechnia]


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 28, 2011)

You're really going to persist with this crap, aren't you? Give you an inch, and you take a mile. I understand that this is a passion for you but, I would recommend that you take it to an appropriate forum (there are lots of alchemy forums). Like Harold says, we're men of science here, and what you're promoting is totally unprovable anti-science. Any more posts like the last one and you're gone. The only reason you've lasted this long is because you seem to be a nice guy, albeit deluded. If you want to learn how to refine PMs, you've found the best website on the planet to do this and you're welcome to stay. If all you want to do is promote your BS alchemical agenda, you're not welcome to stay. We don't discuss religion here and that's what alchemy is, in my estimation. Anything that promises eternal life, if you have the proper faith and walk the prescribed walk, can only be defined as a religion.

Note: the above paragraph was in answer to the previous very long post by Pirotechnia. He has since deleted it and we have worked things out, but I have retained the paragraph to provide advice to anyone in the future that attempts to promote an alchemical agenda. 

I must admit that I did read Le Bon's "Evolution of Matter", hardbound, many years ago and enjoyed it. Although it contained a lot of pseudo-science crap (after all, the guy was a sociologist and it was written in about 1905), it was an easy reading fun book. The part where he discusses the transmutation of sodium to potassium (or visa versa) in the human body was interesting but, whether true or not is another story. As you most probably know, it's downloadable from http://www.rexresearch.com , the weirdest website on the internet and perhaps the most evil, at least from my Christian perspective. Le Bon was a sociologist and one of his best books or, at least, most famous, is, "The Psychology of Crowds."


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## Pirotechnia (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Goldsilverpro,

Yes I have a passion for the history of alchemy, however I do NOT consider myself as an unconditional believer in the reality of things as the Philosophers stone. For me it's very amusing to read these kind of texts and also trying to repeat some of it in the practise. Simply because of curiosity. This also brings me back to why I posted here in the first place i.e. because I am interested in finding a person well versed in cupellation, in order to help me carry out one of these experiments.

Sorry if I may have been proclaiming the interest for alchemy, I fully understand and respect that off topics will not be tolerated, but as the topic was moved to what I consider to be the trashcan, I took the freedom to eleborate a bit as I could not see how it could cause any damage. Also because people posted, I had not hoped for any discussion at all, except PM. However, I will not trouble you anymore by posting quotes from the corpus of alchemy and the intension was not to try to convince anyone of you, in either direction. 

Peace!

/Pirotechnia

P.S. I agree that rex research is a weird forum, nevertheless interesting, I inked to it simpy because they "just happened" to also have a pretty large collection of alchemical texts there, besides many other things non related...


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 28, 2011)

Peace! And welcome to the forum! Let's have a fresh beginning!

So, what is it you want to know about about cupellation? I have much hands-on experience in it, as do some of the other members. I would suggest you start a new thread, with a new title, and post it in another category - maybe Sampling/Assaying/Testing, if that is your interest.

I do share your interest in the history of alchemy. After all, it involves the beginning of chemistry, as Lou mentioned before.


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## Pirotechnia (Jul 28, 2011)

Cool! Thanks for the welcome  

I figure out some things of which I am particulary eager to aks you all about, a true priviledge to be able to embrace the accumulated knowledge inside of this forum. 

I will soon start new thread (s)...

Kindly and with respect,
Pirotechnia


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## eeTHr (Jul 28, 2011)

A while back, there was an Alchemy guy who came on here, and started out sort of talking about chemistry, then would zing off into some kind of religous rant, and then back to sort of chemistry.

And he would occasionally weave into all this, the idea that, if we were all good little boys and girls, and followed his every word, that he might someday drop a few hints about how to turn milk into gold.

He wasn't a big hit with the forum.

...Just sayin'....


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## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank (Jul 28, 2011)

Well,strictly speaking,we are modern alchemists...we are able to transmute iron into silver,zinc into gold and so for...we do these things all days,we transmute trash into gold,silver or PGM.

Kindest regards.

Manuel


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## Acid_Bath76 (Jul 28, 2011)

wrecker45 said:


> that looks like the red back salamanders we have here.


Ah yes... the redback... I'll strap him to my "wand of refining +2" ... :lol:


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## Palladium (Jul 28, 2011)

The guy can take a thrashing. I'll give him that.


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## wrecker45 (Jul 28, 2011)

china makes gold bars with lead. and sells them in north america. :mrgreen:


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2011)

Pirotechnia said:


> Finally, you may ask yourself a question: if YOU were about to discover the secret of transmuting lead into gold (we pretend that it's possible) - how would you handle this kind of information? The question and it's different answers is of equal relevance today as 400 years ago, nothing has changed.


You're wrong. What has changed is that those of us that understand reality know that what you just said doesn't happen. Ignorance is very destructive. I have no desire to spend a life time chasing something that is well understood, in the hopes that I can prove them wrong. 

Reading unfounded "information" over and over again will not make it true. I have larger fish to fry than to waste my time reading nonsense. Transmutation of lead to gold is just that---nonsense. 

Harold


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## Pirotechnia (Jul 28, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Pirotechnia said:
> 
> 
> > Finally, you may ask yourself a question: if YOU were about to discover the secret of transmuting lead into gold (we pretend that it's possible) - how would you handle this kind of information? The question and it's different answers is of equal relevance today as 400 years ago, nothing has changed.
> ...



Dear Harold,

I understand well your aversion against things which is being today classified as "non scientific". With respect to people as GSP I will not go in further debate but I will simply stress that I was adressing the question above with the condition and prefix "IF". So hypotetichally, if we were informed of how to turn lead into gold without the necessity of bombarding HG with raditation, which has already been scientifiacally proven to work, how would one handle this information? This was my question.

If it would be possible to make gold, gold would eventually be worthless. However, before that one could easily make a fortune. And I think that all people may agree that it would not be without problems to unveil a secret of making gold just like that, it would have deep impact on the global finnanical economy and have concequences far beyond our imagination. Under the condition that it IS possible. And in this way nothing has changed because the same condition could well be applied to people 500 years ago or even 3000 years ago. The whole monitary system is based on a consistancy of precious metals in earth core. If that is a wrong assumption and one can "transmute metals into gold", the world economy would be falilng as a card house. 

Best wishes,
Pirotechnia


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## Claudie (Jul 28, 2011)

Sometimes Lead IS used to get Gold. Sometimes Lead IS more valuable than Gold. It comes in many calibers.... :|


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## dtectr (Jul 28, 2011)

My friend, piro-whatever,
you should just shut up now.
You clearly wish to waste several of your finite breaths in this world, fantasizing about BS, & thinking that doing so marks you as "intelligent" and "a Thinker". Some of the chicks at the bar you hang out at obviously think so.

We (most of us) have the responsibility for providing for our families in the Real World (notice - no quotes) & which is based on science (the study of facts) literally thousands of years old.

Honest, sincere advice here; Stick to science, quit defending your innocent obsession, especially against our senior members & moderators, and you may yet have something to offer & something to learn.

As a matter of fact, what have you actually asked or propounded? If _"cuppelation"_ (sic) stick to that, in its proper forum, leave off defending your wide-eyed ignorance. 
Please.


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## Harold_V (Jul 29, 2011)

Pirotechnia said:


> If that is a wrong assumption and one can "transmute metals into gold", the world economy would be falilng as a card house.


Heh! The world economy is falling like a house of cards---and it has little to do with gold. In fact, it is reflected in the price of gold, which, to my knowledge, still contains 480 grains per troy ounce. 

The world is no longer on a gold standard, at least officially. 

Yes, I agree, were one be able to easily and cheaply produce gold, it would be a problem. But we can't, therefore, it isn't. From that, I conclude that all of us are far better served addressing real issues. 

No, I'm not interested in the latest news about lady gaga. I'm not interested in *anything* to do with lady gaga. Sort of like alchemy. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Jul 29, 2011)

dtectr said:


> My friend, piro-whatever,
> you should just shut up now.



Oh, yeah! Big time!!
I have a very busy schedule. So busy that I often get too little sleep, the result of trying to honor my commitment to this forum to moderate. 

My comment, above, is not to be taken the wrong way. I give freely and willingly of my time, to help ensure this forum operates smoothly. What I don't appreciate is anyone going on endlessly on a subject that is not related to the subject matter of this forum----which is the processing of precious metals. I refuse to spend my time reading posts to ensure that they are not offensive, when they do not pertain to the topic we embrace----and I'm particularly short of patience with someone that doesn't take NO for an answer. 

I am going on record here----if there is any more said about alchemy by _*piro-whatever*_, I am going to personally ban him from this forum, and my decision is not open for discussion. I am finished with this individual wasting my precious time. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 29, 2011)

I am locking this thread.


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