# Why is peracetic acid not mentioned much by Youtubers, or others?



## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

This acid eats all soft metals specifically copper, and everything above* it on the reactivity chart..... Why is this acid not mentioned for refining? This acid undergoes some exothermic reaction saving you from expending heating energy as well, but apparently it can explode, or ignite somewhere around 104F making it somewhat intimidating with that flashpoint. Other than controlling it's flash, it is extremely efficient it seems. Any tips on reactions, safety precautions, or basic understanding would be wonderful. Thanks everyone.

-side note: this acid does eat AL's oxide layer making it easy to even drop/displace Cu with AL which seems amazing.


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## MicheleM (Dec 17, 2021)

" apparently it can explode, or ignite somewhere around 104F making it somewhat intimidating..." good answer to your question


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## Jado (Dec 17, 2021)

Acetic Acid is on the harsh end for what most people (who understand anything about it) feel comfortable using at concentrations above 5%. Add in an extreme volatility and you need to do some research (read and watch until you have nightmares). The thermoregulation required rivals Nitroglycerin production.

If you have the ability and confidence to use it safely, by all means. If you have to ask, you don’t.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 17, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> This acid eats all soft metals specifically copper, and everything above* it on the reactivity chart..... Why is this acid not mentioned for refining? This acid undergoes some exothermic reaction saving you from expending heating energy as well, but apparently it can explode, or ignite somewhere around 104F making it somewhat intimidating with that flashpoint. Other than controlling it's flash, it is extremely efficient it seems. Any tips on reactions, safety precautions, or basic understanding would be wonderful. Thanks everyone.
> 
> -side note: this acid does eat AL's oxide layer making it easy to even drop/displace Cu with AL which seems amazing.


Al will displace/cement copper in HCl too. And anything below.
Alu strips are used to cement from relative pure PGM solutions.
It will do what Zinc does, but cheaper.
The negative is, that it creates a fluffy hard to filter Chloride if you over add the Aluminum.
In Nitric it may be a different story, but then you are talking about another beast all together.
Regards Per-Ove


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## Elemental (Dec 17, 2021)

Probably for the same reason things like piranha solution, chlorine gas, and cyanide techniques are avoided in discussion. They are dangerous even in a safety enforced setting. Your recommendation of an acid that will do pretty much the same as nitric or aqua regia (both of which can be diluted to make slightly safer) but has the possibility of making an acid bomb should be self explanatory. Hell instead of copper, let’s use sodium for cementing?! 

Yes, I’m sure an experienced refiner/chemist could make a process to safely use peracetic acid in a closed system, but that we have safer, simpler ways to do refining. 

Information about peracetic acid:


ICSC 1031 - PERACETIC ACID (stabilized)


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## Geo (Dec 18, 2021)

PAA can be very dangerous. It is used as an anti-microbial in food processing plants. Even though it is not considered industrial grade, the fumes will quite literally knock you out. First hand knowledge. My son worked at a poultry plant and his job was to wash down the equipment with PAA when ever the lines went down. One day there was a leak and he went in to turn off the pump. It was coincidental but very lucky for my son that maintenance had sent someone to shut it down and found my son unconscious by the door. It took months before he was fully recovered.


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## orvi (Dec 18, 2021)

I used combination of acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide a lot in organic syntheses (create weak peracetic acid _in situ_). Also, acetic acid is common solvent for reactions I do. But i will never advise to use this stuff for refining metals. Glacial acetic acid or concentrated (above 90%) acetic acid is lipophilic = very easily penetrates human flesh/skin, causing very bad chemical burns. Drop to your unprotected eye and you can end up blind.
Gloves are penetrated with ease, as expected with every common polar organic solvent. False sense of protection is the worst thing that could happen to you. Applying the acid to your hand, unnoticed for long time is very bad. Aqueous acids have hard time to eat through the gloves, organic acids just pass through.

And as it was stated here many times, peracetic acid (as every organic peroxide molecule) is explosive. And relatively sensitive one, if concentration of peracetic acid climbs higher than 20%. Trace impurities, various chemicals or metals could trigger degradation, which could lead to big bad things 

Without proper knowledge, do not attempt random mixing of chemicals and substituing common ones for some other stuff. Chemistry is non forgiving. And always do what it is supposed to, regardless of what you want.
Good thing is, peracetic acid is relatively hard to obtain from obvious reasons listed above


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## Elemental (Dec 18, 2021)

I would like to add that I do like when topics such as these come up. We have Hoke’s book to tell us one way to do things, but refining is a science, and science involves experimenting and research. Topics like this quickly and effectively point out a direction that research should not be taken. Thanks to everyone who puts in the time and effort to remark on topics like this one. 

Elemental


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## orvi (Dec 18, 2021)

Elemental said:


> I would like to add that I do like when topics such as these come up. We have Hoke’s book to tell us one way to do things, but refining is a science, and science involves experimenting and research. Topics like this quickly and effectively point out a direction that research should not be taken. Thanks to everyone who puts in the time and effort to remark on topics like this one.
> 
> Elemental


I like experimenting a lot. Just not random, but focused, aimed on proving something, well prepared, best discussed with other experts, so ammount of time wasted if the concept fails is minimal.
I was bored back in the day when we used to have chemistry labs and teacher talks like 10 minutes about safety and what is forbidden to do in the lab. Everybody wanted just to mix things up, colours, fizzing, explosions, etc... 

But when some time passed, i ended up on master´s in organic chemistry, and things changed. Now, you were doing unknown things which wasn´t done before by anybody else. Creating compounds which could be possibly very harmful for you and your co-workers. Very quickly, responsibility hits. And you start to realise that your perfectly planned synthesis could possibly lead to evolution of dangerous gasses, sudden exothermic runaways spilling caustic solutions all over the place etc.

You become more and more cautious. But it need time and experience. Good mentoring from the professors or older lab-mates, understanding the chemistry behind, realising possible side-reactions. This can´t be substitued by 15 minutes of internet search 

I share the same opinion here. There will always be some a-holes, who create stuff like NCl3 in glass jars, regardless of dangers CLEARLY POINTED OUT, ending up with fingers amputations etc.
It is great that we could share knowledge together to stop somebody less experienced doing the worst mistake of his life


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

MicheleM said:


> " apparently it can explode, or ignite somewhere around 104F making it somewhat intimidating..." good answer to your question


I mean... It ignites first unless gas concentrations are in a pressured room, or unaerated box. You'd have to be pretty derpy to do that, or maybe didn't research safety prior to experimentation.... It seems scary on an industrial sized scale, but in CDC safety it appears that any fires due to this acid can be fought with just water. I'd be a lot less intimidated by that outcome rather than nitrics, or sulfuric's affects on the body, but I will admit I didn't deep dive gas emissions with this, and emissions with reacting to metals just yet.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Jado said:


> Acetic Acid is on the harsh end for what most people (who understand anything about it) feel comfortable using at concentrations above 5%. Add in an extreme volatility and you need to do some research (read and watch until you have nightmares). The thermoregulation required rivals Nitroglycerin production.
> 
> If you have the ability and confidence to use it safely, by all means. If you have to ask, you don’t.


Understood. Saftey is what I first research before jumping to do anything. Haven't done too much deep diving into this, but it'll be on the list to look into.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Al will displace/cement copper in HCl too. And anything below.
> Alu strips are used to cement from relative pure PGM solutions.
> It will do what Zinc does, but cheaper.
> The negative is, that it creates a fluffy hard to filter Chloride if you over add the Aluminum.
> ...


Only issue with HCL and AL would be AL's protective oxide layer. Seems like it resists things pretty well, and would make things pretty irritating.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Elemental said:


> Probably for the same reason things like piranha solution, chlorine gas, and cyanide techniques are avoided in discussion. They are dangerous even in a safety enforced setting. Your recommendation of an acid that will do pretty much the same as nitric or aqua regia (both of which can be diluted to make slightly safer) but has the possibility of making an acid bomb should be self explanatory. Hell instead of copper, let’s use sodium for cementing?!
> 
> Yes, I’m sure an experienced refiner/chemist could make a process to safely use peracetic acid in a closed system, but that we have safer, simpler ways to do refining.
> 
> ...


I like chlorine. You can actually filter it unlike NOx's, and sulfuric may be the scariest acid I have witnessed haha. Nitric's fumes are more potent than anything I have seen on CDC's guidelines of safety.... Literally just says wear a firefighting suit to be even near nitric dioxide with air tanks. No recommended cartridges for respirator, and no nothing. Can't tell if they are referring to nitric fires, so the air/fumes would be superheated, or what. If they speak in those terms then it would make sense to need cooled refreshed air in a closed system, but it appears nitric, and it's fumes are quite hellish. 

It even says only uncontrolled vapors will explode if allowed to in essence. 
-"Flammable. Above 40.5°C explosive vapour/air mixtures may be formed. Explosive. "
Now the reactions also being exothermic..... now that makes it exiting lmao. (dangerous)


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Geo said:


> PAA can be very dangerous. It is used as an anti-microbial in food processing plants. Even though it is not considered industrial grade, the fumes will quite literally knock you out. First hand knowledge. My son worked at a poultry plant and his job was to wash down the equipment with PAA when ever the lines went down. One day there was a leak and he went in to turn off the pump. It was coincidental but very lucky for my son that maintenance had sent someone to shut it down and found my son unconscious by the door. It took months before he was fully recovered.


That is quite the frightening story, and glad he turned around. Most dangerous thing to do is going alone when there is a leak. What fumes are emitted to do that exactly? It appears explosive due to H, and O, but didn't see much else. Reminder* I didn't do heavy research on peroxyacetic just yet, but seems to have some potential at first glance.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

orvi said:


> I used combination of acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide a lot in organic syntheses (create weak peracetic acid _in situ_). Also, acetic acid is common solvent for reactions I do. But i will never advise to use this stuff for refining metals. Glacial acetic acid or concentrated (above 90%) acetic acid is lipophilic = very easily penetrates human flesh/skin, causing very bad chemical burns. Drop to your unprotected eye and you can end up blind.
> Gloves are penetrated with ease, as expected with every common polar organic solvent. False sense of protection is the worst thing that could happen to you. Applying the acid to your hand, unnoticed for long time is very bad. Aqueous acids have hard time to eat through the gloves, organic acids just pass through.
> 
> And as it was stated here many times, peracetic acid (as every organic peroxide molecule) is explosive. And relatively sensitive one, if concentration of peracetic acid climbs higher than 20%. Trace impurities, various chemicals or metals could trigger degradation, which could lead to big bad things
> ...


Thank you for your time, and explanation. Especially with safety knowledge. I never want the glacial version haha. That stuff like you said is crazy. Heard, or read about people making around 100% acetic, then like 50% H2O2, and good god. Why would you ever? I didn't even enjoy my nitric at 70% which I had 10 liters of sitting in my house. That's when I did more research on Nitric dioxide, and the nitric then got donated to a waste facility immediately. lmao I have in essence refined vinegar to 15.5%, and also have 35% H2O2 (the 35% still spooks me) atm. I tried 5% (vinegar) and 35% H2O2 that appeared relatively stable other than foaming, but it does scare me. I did not know the penetrating effect of those types of acids as well, so thank you again for that piece. What concentrations does it pierce gloves at? Seen scary effects of nitric at 90% as well, and don't know if that effect is alike. All concentrations, or...? Curious on what, or how I should balance the 2. Should they be imbalanced in concentration, or balanced for the desired effect? Also note I am doing TINY experiments, and do not plan in any way doing large quantities unless all safety protocol measure are met, and are in place first. Just refer to that nitric story to see how cautious I really am haha.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

orvi said:


> I like experimenting a lot. Just not random, but focused, aimed on proving something, well prepared, best discussed with other experts, so ammount of time wasted if the concept fails is minimal.
> I was bored back in the day when we used to have chemistry labs and teacher talks like 10 minutes about safety and what is forbidden to do in the lab. Everybody wanted just to mix things up, colours, fizzing, explosions, etc...
> 
> But when some time passed, i ended up on master´s in organic chemistry, and things changed. Now, you were doing unknown things which wasn´t done before by anybody else. Creating compounds which could be possibly very harmful for you and your co-workers. Very quickly, responsibility hits. And you start to realise that your perfectly planned synthesis could possibly lead to evolution of dangerous gasses, sudden exothermic runaways spilling caustic solutions all over the place etc.
> ...


Idk about saving my life, but alright. The presumptions here.... I'm dumb but not that dumb 

p.p


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Elemental said:


> Probably for the same reason things like piranha solution, chlorine gas, and cyanide techniques are avoided in discussion. They are dangerous even in a safety enforced setting. Your recommendation of an acid that will do pretty much the same as nitric or aqua regia (both of which can be diluted to make slightly safer) but has the possibility of making an acid bomb should be self explanatory. Hell instead of copper, let’s use sodium for cementing?!
> 
> Yes, I’m sure an experienced refiner/chemist could make a process to safely use peracetic acid in a closed system, but that we have safer, simpler ways to do refining.
> 
> ...


Also... chlorine gas? Idk how you use HCL, or anything else to refine then my friend. The chlorine is what does the work! Piranha solution? Check my glass cleaning thread.... Many users said they USE IT TO WASH THEIR GLASS! I have no clue what:
"Probably for the same reason things like piranha solution, chlorine gas, and cyanide techniques are avoided in discussion."
This even means....
Now... for refining yeah. You obviously don't wanna mess with piranha solution lol. I don't wanna play with sulfur anything at all really. Cyanide again, yeah. You again don't wanna mess with it for fairly obvious reasons. That's why I do the digging/watching/ and questions.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Elemental said:


> I would like to add that I do like when topics such as these come up. We have Hoke’s book to tell us one way to do things, but refining is a science, and science involves experimenting and research. Topics like this quickly and effectively point out a direction that research should not be taken. Thanks to everyone who puts in the time and effort to remark on topics like this one.
> 
> Elemental


Research shouldn't be taken in certain directions? Have no clue how everything industrial was ever made then. The attitude, and pride here with being saviors is HEAVY. Have fun with NOX's, and the nitric I guess. That hasn't hurt a fly though lmao.


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## orvi (Dec 18, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Thank you for your time, and explanation. Especially with safety knowledge. I never want the glacial version haha. That stuff like you said is crazy. Heard, or read about people making around 100% acetic, then like 50% H2O2, and good god. Why would you ever? I didn't even enjoy my nitric at 70% which I had 10 liters of sitting in my house. That's when I did more research on Nitric dioxide, and the nitric then got donated to a waste facility immediately. lmao I have in essence refined vinegar to 15.5%, and also have 35% H2O2 (the 35% still spooks me) atm. I tried 5% (vinegar) and 35% H2O2 that appeared relatively stable other than foaming, but it does scare me. I did not know the penetrating effect of those types of acids as well, so thank you again for that piece. What concentrations does it pierce gloves at? Seen scary effects of nitric at 90% as well, and don't know if that effect is alike. All concentrations, or...? Curious on what, or how I should balance the 2. Should they be imbalanced in concentration, or balanced for the desired effect? Also note I am doing TINY experiments, and do not plan in any way doing large quantities unless all safety protocol measure are met, and are in place first. Just refer to that nitric story to see how cautious I really am haha.


It is completely OK to work with acetic acid, but you need to be careful. I have done so much of my work with acetic acid, and it is sometimes irreplacable. But for organic chemistry. 100% stuff, we just dont want it wet. 
You donated nitric to waste facility... You could offer it here, so many people will gladly buy from you 

Most of the times, we don´t pre-mix acids with oxidizing agents. Like AR, you don´t pre-mix the HCl with HNO3, but instead add oxidizer (nitric) in doses to use a proper ammount of it to do its job.
Hypothetically, same apply here. If it was of any benefit using acetic acid or peracetic acid. I dont know of any benefit over nitric about this stuff. Both are dangerous when used improperly. NO2 is more toxic, that´s for sure. But in the refining, you will have hard time to eliminating nitric from the procedures.


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## orvi (Dec 18, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Research shouldn't be taken in certain directions? Have no clue how everything industrial was ever made then. The attitude, and pride here with being saviors is HEAVY. Have fun with NOX's, and the nitric I guess. That hasn't hurt a fly though lmao.


Yes, it shouldn´t be taken in certain directions. We gain a lot from experience of older researchers, who many times died because of the chemistry they were doing. Take for example the discovery of fluorine. Many people attempted it, and they had their health impaired for the rest of their lives. Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.

Now, we know a lot more, and because of this, we could be more cautious about stuff we plan to do. 
Whole point here is you could do any kind of chemistry for research purposes, but the following question is: is it of any worth ?
What will be the point of using say peracetic acid for dissolution of metals ? We could assume that it will work great, get everything dissolved, but... What is the output ? Does it outweigh the risks and safety hazards involved ? No. And you can end up your research right here. 
Or you can pursue the ideas further, conducting and carefully documenting the procedures, doing proper analyses with instrumental and gravimetric methods. Professional research is different of our "clandestine" way of doing things. But aside of all of this, you know the most important answer right now: no, it wont help us with improving the procedures, because we already know the PAA is too hazardous to work with on regular basis, when we have more reliable and convenient alternatives.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

orvi said:


> It is completely OK to work with acetic acid, but you need to be careful. I have done so much of my work with acetic acid, and it is sometimes irreplacable. But for organic chemistry. 100% stuff, we just dont want it wet.
> You donated nitric to waste facility... You could offer it here, so many people will gladly buy from you
> 
> Most of the times, we don´t pre-mix acids with oxidizing agents. Like AR, you don´t pre-mix the HCl with HNO3, but instead add oxidizer (nitric) in doses to use a proper ammount of it to do its job.
> Hypothetically, same apply here. If it was of any benefit using acetic acid or peracetic acid. I dont know of any benefit over nitric about this stuff. Both are dangerous when used improperly. NO2 is more toxic, that´s for sure. But in the refining, you will have hard time to eliminating nitric from the procedures.


Thanks for being kind, and helpful. The 100% stuff looks hazardous, and I give you a gold star* taking on a career that exposes you to such things.
For what you say for "doses" that is correct, and includes dripping techniques. This is what I did with the vinegar, and H2O2. Very careful dripping even with the vinegar at 5%. I have seen some be able to calculate how much acid they would need, and that sparked my curiosity because it is effieceny related. Plus less acid= potentially less headache, and hazard.
I would have kindly donated it here, but I just joined not too long ago. I wasn't aware of this site haha, but yeah. It was beautiful 70% lab grade stuff inside perfectly Teflon taped anti UV jugs.

I am curious. If acetic does come diluted in water, then what happens at 100% when it gets wet? Are you saying you want the purity to remain, or does it get real upset? haha

You have successfully worried me about peroxyacetic acid though.... What concentration is able to pierce through gloves? I see you said 90% is where real warning light go off, but what action does it have with what types of gloves, and at what concentrations?

I am not one to pass up safety protocol. It is what taught me a bit of chemistry firstly, and is even why I say I "like" chlorine. Reaction in the human alveoli's mucus (H2O) into HCL is produced making you WELL AWARE you are going to die soon, and the PPM of CL2 to the human nose is TINY. Again it gives you obvious warning something in your safety has failed, or you are pumping too much out into the surrounding area, and RUN. I digressed a bit, but this is my point; I never just give a "eh" to safety if you haven't noticed yet. haha

Side note- This is why CL2 is good at killing you. It steals, or displaces the O in your mucus, skin, or whatever it touches made of water, and makes some friendly HCL. You must gasp with the burning sensation, and displaced oxygen. It is why it was used as mustard gas.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

orvi said:


> Yes, it shouldn´t be taken in certain directions. We gain a lot from experience of older researchers, who many times died because of the chemistry they were doing. Take for example the discovery of fluorine. Many people attempted it, and they had their health impaired for the rest of their lives. Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.
> 
> Now, we know a lot more, and because of this, we could be more cautious about stuff we plan to do.
> Whole point here is you could do any kind of chemistry for research purposes, but the following question is: is it of any worth ?
> ...


I'm confused as we use fluorine to treat our drinking water. Now, Experimental research is different than the broad term research. Researching something is the study of it. Experimental research is the action of experimenting with things you do not understand to see the effects. DANGEROUS.

My issue is I still don't see the utility of nitric with its NOX. It cannot be filtered. The peroxyacetic (to my very little knowing) doesn't have that right there. Nitric still makes fires much worse, and can't be fought with water. If inhaled you are turbo screwed because the body is poor at synthesizing it. It (Peroxy) can dissolve all base metals easily and you can reclaim even your Cu easily, because it can penetrate Al's oxide layers.

I can't actually understand why HNO3 is used to be quite frank.


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## Elemental (Dec 18, 2021)

Cattmurry, you mentioned chemical storage in your house, I would recommend for safety reasons you move your chemical storage outside your domicile. 

In regards to my comments about piranha solution, chlorine gas, and other hazardous techniques, I’m not against discussion of these techniques but want to make sure that novices to both chemistry and refining understand how dangerous they are. I find most of my posts stress safety and a full understanding of the risks.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

orvi said:


> Yes, it shouldn´t be taken in certain directions. We gain a lot from experience of older researchers, who many times died because of the chemistry they were doing. Take for example the discovery of fluorine. Many people attempted it, and they had their health impaired for the rest of their lives. Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.
> 
> Now, we know a lot more, and because of this, we could be more cautious about stuff we plan to do.
> Whole point here is you could do any kind of chemistry for research purposes, but the following question is: is it of any worth ?
> ...


Also. for safety for this stuff I left a bit out hehe. When it reacts with metal it foams. That concludes the flammability right there (potentially). It creates flammable bubbles... not sporadic gasses like you may imagine. this foam I would be interested in because it is kind of protecting me from fumes, or hazardous exploding potentials. I kind of want to scrape the foam off to see it is the flammable gas spoken about (in tiny quantities), then you could potentially light it on fire after your reactants decompose fully. If you have any more H2O2 present, or still in solution though I think you will be greeted by God. BUT my point is you can just handle the foam, or spray it with water to make it go away whenever you choose. NOX? Nope. It goes everywhere. CL2? Nope. Burns even little portions of your skin that are exposed. Not nice stuff, and don't even get me started on sulfuric. I hate sulfur. Lmao. I will add I have yet to go deep into reactions just yet, but I shall soon.

Side note: Any other reader reading this do not try it for yourself. You do not know how anxiety ridden I am about safety, or my working conditions to keep me safe, and at the ready for trouble. If you do anything you have read here you can easily end up dead. This goes for many reactions with chemistry.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Elemental said:


> Cattmurry, you mentioned chemical storage in your house, I would recommend for safety reasons you move your chemical storage outside your domicile.
> 
> In regards to my comments about piranha solution, chlorine gas, and other hazardous techniques, I’m not against discussion of these techniques but


Yeah I do not suggest chemical storage in the house either. This is why after I read about nitric's full potential to kill you it was immediately removed. Nothing that is near itself can react so poorly, and I do have everything at the ready to neutralize what I have. SMB, and lots of baking soda for bleach/H2O2, and HCL. All I got, and even those intimidate me.

-Sodium metabisulfite (SMBS) and sodium bisulfite (SBS) are common reducing agents used *to neutralize oxidizers* such as peracetic acid (PAA) and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Enviro Tech Chemical Services' peracetic acid products are equilibrium mixtures of both PAA and H2O2.

For fumes or anything that* can escape the bottles potentially I have my actual living quarters sealed up real good. Can't even smell cig smoke in here. For HVAC systems I have it off, so no airflow can potentially carry anything to us. Reactions are on a separate floor, and most these gasses spoken of are denser than air, but just in case.

Also note that I have previously stated I am doing no large scaled reactions in here. I am getting a schematic, or idea of what I'd like to do further down the road, but not a bad tip for other's reading. My reactions are literally a few MIL's


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Elemental said:


> Cattmurry, you mentioned chemical storage in your house, I would recommend for safety reasons you move your chemical storage outside your domicile.
> 
> In regards to my comments about piranha solution, chlorine gas, and other hazardous techniques, I’m not against discussion of these techniques but want to make sure that novices to both chemistry and refining understand how dangerous they are. I find most of my posts stress safety and a full understanding of the risks.


Your recommendation reminds me of the user just posting about him having nitric in his house. Very sad to read. He isn't even aware it's too late, and damage has been done.

To all users. Show the Nitrogen, Sulfur, Chlorine, and all reactions some respect, or get put back into which you came from. Equilibrium of your dancing chemistry, and finally decomposition.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Jado said:


> Acetic Acid is on the harsh end for what most people (who understand anything about it) feel comfortable using at concentrations above 5%. Add in an extreme volatility and you need to do some research (read and watch until you have nightmares). The thermoregulation required rivals Nitroglycerin production.
> 
> If you have the ability and confidence to use it safely, by all means. If you have to ask, you don’t.


Thermoregulation is a *mechanism by which mammals maintain body temperature with tightly controlled self-regulation independent of external temperatures*. Temperature regulation is a type of homeostasis and a means of preserving a stable internal temperature in order to survive.

Confused on what this word means. Are we talking temperature regulation in essence?

LOL. I didn't even read that word correctly. My bad! Was not meaning to sound like a smartss lmao. WHEW. Slightly tired. Did not notice it saying thermo-regulation.


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## olawlor (Dec 18, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Confused on what this word means. Are we talking temperature regulation in essence?


Exothermic reactions can thermal runaway and explode, requiring thermoregulation of the reactor vessel, such as with a water jacket. Prior to perfecting this, nitroglycerine plants would regularly vaporize themselves, a cautionary tale for anyone attempting novel chemistry!

FYI, even cold dilute HCl will immediately and energetically dissolve aluminum foil, alumina is pretty soluble at a pH around 0. (However, aluminum ions are freaking hard to get out of solution, they're least soluble around pH 7 but come out as a sticky gelatinous mess that takes an eternity to filter. I'd stick with iron for waste treatment, it's also less prone to bubbling off lots of hydrogen.)


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

olawlor said:


> Exothermic reactions can thermal runaway and explode, requiring thermoregulation of the reactor vessel, such as with a water jacket. Prior to perfecting this, nitroglycerine plants would regularly vaporize themselves, a cautionary tale for anyone attempting novel chemistry!
> 
> FYI, even cold dilute HCl will immediately and energetically dissolve aluminum foil, alumina is pretty soluble at a pH around 0. (However, aluminum ions are freaking hard to get out of solution, they're least soluble around pH 7 but come out as a sticky gelatinous mess that takes an eternity to filter. I'd stick with iron for waste treatment, it's also less prone to bubbling off lots of hydrogen.)


A water jacket is a really good idea. Nice. Nitro seems spooky lmao. I know with Al it should react pretty well in acids, but the oxide layer is said by others to resist it pretty well...... but I'll be dammed. I have no idea why Fe flew past my face...... LOL


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

olawlor said:


> Exothermic reactions can thermal runaway and explode, requiring thermoregulation of the reactor vessel, such as with a water jacket. Prior to perfecting this, nitroglycerine plants would regularly vaporize themselves, a cautionary tale for anyone attempting novel chemistry!
> 
> FYI, even cold dilute HCl will immediately and energetically dissolve aluminum foil, alumina is pretty soluble at a pH around 0. (However, aluminum ions are freaking hard to get out of solution, they're least soluble around pH 7 but come out as a sticky gelatinous mess that takes an eternity to filter. I'd stick with iron for waste treatment, it's also less prone to bubbling off lots of hydrogen.)


The only issue I see is getting an accurate temperature in the first place. Right now I have a magnetic spinner/hot plate combo that comes with the little thermometer which actually was pretty helpful for steaming away water off vinegar at around 95C, but I have no clue how you would in an acidic/reactive solution as such. I don't trust infrared temp guns fully. I've heard many issues with accurate readings here, and there. Any solutions for reading heat? I am actually curious about it for metal smelting as well, but that would need a higher range. For the vessel I would probably just need a very accurate trustworthy one.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

orvi said:


> Yes, it shouldn´t be taken in certain directions. We gain a lot from experience of older researchers, who many times died because of the chemistry they were doing. Take for example the discovery of fluorine. Many people attempted it, and they had their health impaired for the rest of their lives. Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.
> 
> Now, we know a lot more, and because of this, we could be more cautious about stuff we plan to do.
> Whole point here is you could do any kind of chemistry for research purposes, but the following question is: is it of any worth ?
> ...


I'm looking at glove charts for acid, and it appears all materials of glove resists acetic, and peracetic. I personally use Latex gloves, then nitrile gloves inside the latex gloves. Will get some butyl gloves soon.

Also, I hear that peracetic is an equilibrium reaction.... How do these two co-exist simultaneously after reacting while also making a combined form of Peroxyacetic? Equilibrium looks odd to me...are they just working together, or actually mix, or just yes? lol.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 18, 2021)

Most, if not all chemical reactions are equlibrias. But the conditions in which it exists can be manipulated to a massive or some degree to push the reaction "left" or "right".
For instance temperature, acidity, pressure or other.
Cooling a solution may drop for instance lead chloride more completely from solution.

Edit to add:
Mixed and complex reactions make this immensely more complicated to foresee.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

Catt!
Your fear of the fumes from Nitric and HCl puzzles me.
The dangers are real, but it has been developed techniques to alleviate these dangers.
Peracetic acid on the other hand is totally different. 
I have no experience with it. And I see no need to use it just so that is said.

Breaking the oxide layer of Aluminum is quite easy. HCl, NaOH or straight Hydrogen peroxide will do that, with no additional risk other than the Hydrogen gas released.

Peracetic acid is also a weak acid like another acid we do NOT use much, HF. It breaks oxide bonds of refractory materials like glass and such, but that is about it.

To me, it seems like you are not choosing between, plague and cholera. 
But rather opting for them in stead of the pneumonia.
Bad comparison I know, but nothing better popped up at this time. 

Per-Ove


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

I had a mind slip with this one, I usually try to snap at people in PMs and then prize in public.
Sorry Catt.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Most, if not all chemical reactions are equlibrias. But the conditions in which it exists can be manipulated to a massive or some degree to push the reaction "left" or "right".
> For instance temperature, acidity, pressure or other.
> Cooling a solution may drop for instance lead chloride more completely from solution.
> 
> ...


What are we meaning left to right? Thanks for the reply my friend. Yeah using heat seems very fascinating to drop certain things as well, but my potato head is a bit tired to read the whole paper, or books of info on equilibrium. I would assume left, and right meaning to one reactant say acid to the other. For the peroxyacetic you could push it into the H2O2, or the Acetic side?
I don't fully understand that last comment. I never mind snaps wherever they may be. You snapped? Huh. You aren't much of a reactor then. I come online so I don't get physically attacked, or conned by men lmao. On any speech, or typing basis don't apologize. I really do not mind.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Catt!
> Your fear of the fumes from Nitric and HCl puzzles me.
> The dangers are real, but it has been developed techniques to alleviate these dangers.
> Peracetic acid on the other hand is totally different.
> ...


Didn't know it eats glass. Glad I don't do crazy shannanigans before not doing the researching. I heard that stainless does well with it though. I've been a bit sleepy today, so I have not been doing much heavy researching atm.
My fear of nitric is that it's fumes cannot, or do not seem to be filtered by anything, and recommended PPM exposure in CDC guidelines is like..... 0. I've never seen that lmao. NOISH says 1PPM...... 1. With little filtration possibility it scares me heavily. CL2 is technically lower at 0.05ppm, but still... that's a 15 limit..... NO2 clearly states this limit should not be broken EVER. lol


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

Right or left side of the reaction.
Bad expression again, but pushing the reaction to either side to obtain what ever is your desired outcome on the reaction.
But some equlibrias are very dynamic so it is hard to get it fully finished.
So there will always be some left after its done. 
That is why we have stock pots


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

Nox need scrubbers.
If you scrub it through hydrogen peroxide you will basically create/recycle your nitric.
Then into NaOH.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Nox need scrubbers.
> If you scrub it through hydrogen peroxide you will basically create/recycle your nitric.
> Then into NaOH.


Apologies for my thick head.... I'm still sliiightly lost on either side for different outcomes lmao. I should probably just do some reading, and your expressions help. I'm just a bit sleepy to read.

For NOX. That is true, and is a very helpful tip.... I do not have a full scrubbing eh.. unit? setup? not sure if that's the word I should use, but anyways that seems awesome you can brine back the nitric so easily. I forget reclaiming your acid is fairly simple, and plays into safety. What concentration of H2O2 do you need for that process? Now looking at them I have seen people reduce emissions through bubbling, or scrubbing but..... I mean..... 1ppm. no carts? Idk friend. It ain't called red death for nothin' hahaha. There are much worse things/elements/compounds but yeah. idk.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Nox need scrubbers.
> If you scrub it through hydrogen peroxide you will basically create/recycle your nitric.
> Then into NaOH.


Idk why, but I literally rather control a temperature of a reaction, and fight fire with water than that. Fire is not too scary unless you are real oblivious, or are asleep. Ever try burning wood? It's gotta get to temp to ignite really; meaning you got time, and if ready it hardly even gets hurt. Even better if outside/or around heat resistant plastics, or something. I'm sure I am missing a deadly reaction/gas with the peroxyacetic, or something obvious, but I'm sleepy to dig atm xD. when, and if I find scary emissions ill cave to the all holy nitric.... Or use ap lmao. Nitric is awesome though. Eats the most annoying Cu easily, and Ag when hot.


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## Jado (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> The only issue I see is getting an accurate temperature in the first place. Right now I have a magnetic spinner/hot plate combo that comes with the little thermometer which actually was pretty helpful for steaming away water off vinegar at around 95C, but I have no clue how you would in an acidic/reactive solution as such. I don't trust infrared temp guns fully. I've heard many issues with accurate readings here, and there. Any solutions for reading heat? I am actually curious about it for metal smelting as well, but that would need a higher range. For the vessel I would probably just need a very accurate trustworthy one.


There’s another point to consider, and that is the working temperature. HNO3 boils at a much higher temp than water (oh sweet water, highest enthalpy liquid in the universe) and as such is reasonably stable in dilute solution. Peracetic wholly degrades as it boils, and can boil before water at 1.05kPa (could be .005, someone correct me, it’s been a long day).

We can feel reasonably assured with HCl and HNO3 that, with proper precautions, the reaction will NOT drive itself. We can turn the heat off and the reaction will slow.

Creating an exothermic reaction with PAA will require cooling to control, and it’s not as easy to add cooling as it is to remove added heat.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> There’s another point to consider, and that is the working temperature. HNO3 boils at a much higher temp than water (oh sweet water, highest enthalpy liquid in the universe) and as such is reasonably stable in dilute solution. Peracetic wholly degrades as it boils, and can boil before water at 1.05kPa (could be .005, someone correct me, it’s been a long day).
> 
> We can feel reasonably assured with HCl and HNO3 that, with proper precautions, the reaction will NOT drive itself. We can turn the heat off and the reaction will slow.
> 
> Creating an exothermic reaction with PAA will require cooling to control, and it’s not as easy to add cooling as it is to remove added heat.


No worries I'm pretty tired myself lmao. I feel it. Love how you describe water. I the other day had a good reality trip when knowing HCL is.... just gases...... inside water? which is...... condensed gasses at optimal temp. Very odd realization, but I digress. Got even better when H2O looks like it should be highly explosive. Lucky for us maxing oxidation is our friend.

For the Peroxyacetic acid: It (all saying google, and other's) say flash point is exactly 104.9F (40.5c). So, I'm wondering why not always have the reaction chilled? Of course this would mess with the whole equilibrium shenanigans (I assume), because you'd have warm center around chilled outside. warm center could get crazy with large batches too. You'd definitely need to go slow, and understand what the different temps do to the reactions as well.

If you haven't noticed I am quite intimidated by HNO3, and it's red death fumes hahaha.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> There’s another point to consider, and that is the working temperature. HNO3 boils at a much higher temp than water (oh sweet water, highest enthalpy liquid in the universe) and as such is reasonably stable in dilute solution. Peracetic wholly degrades as it boils, and can boil before water at 1.05kPa (could be .005, someone correct me, it’s been a long day).
> 
> We can feel reasonably assured with HCl and HNO3 that, with proper precautions, the reaction will NOT drive itself. We can turn the heat off and the reaction will slow.
> 
> Creating an exothermic reaction with PAA will require cooling to control, and it’s not as easy to add cooling as it is to remove added heat.


Oh.... you are talking pressures. My apologies. How does it remain at all, or not instantly explode if normal conditions if the atmosphere are at 101.325 kPa?
ISA - International Standard Atmosphere is defined to *101.325 kPa*, 15oC and 0% humidity.

Wouldn't it just explode? I am assuming that means as it is made it is degrading, and gaining heat automatically then? Sorry again. Hadn't seen that you were talking pressures haha. That's low...


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## Jado (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> No worries I'm pretty tired myself lmao. I feel it. Love how you describe water. I the other day had a good reality trip when knowing HCL is.... just gases...... inside water? which is...... condensed gasses at optimal temp. Very odd realization, but I digress. Got even better when H2O looks like it should be highly explosive. Lucky for us maxing oxidation is our friend.
> 
> For the Peroxyacetic acid: It (all saying google, and other's) say flash point is exactly 104.9F (40.5c). So, I'm wondering why not always have the reaction chilled? Of course this would mess with the whole equilibrium shenanigans (I assume), because you'd have warm center around chilled outside. warm center could get crazy with large batches too. You'd definitely need to go slow, and understand what the different temps do to the reactions as well.
> 
> If you haven't noticed I am quite intimidated by HNO3, and it's red death fumes hahaha.





CattMurry said:


> Oh.... you are talking pressures. My apologies. How does it remain at all, or not instantly explode if normal conditions for the atmosphere are 101.325 kPa?
> ISA - International Standard Atmosphere is defined to *101.325 kPa*, 15oC and 0% humidity.
> 
> Wouldn't it just explode? I am assuming that means as it is made it is degrading, and gaining heat automatically then? Sorry again. Hadn't seen that you were talking pressures haha. That's low...


There’s a term “Bumping” used in chemistry for the pressure waves caused in reaction. Normally we try to avoid bumping as it tends to send hot acid flying at our faces and can also ruin glassware and everything around it (like our faces). With a flash point lower than the boiling point of water (at atm), it only takes 1 mol to reach temp and cause a bump which in turn causes a pressure wave (high pressure sent outward, leaves low pressure inward) and now you have a mass of instantly boiling PAA. Temperature and pressure are married, tied at the hip, liplocked and wearing the same Tshirt.

And yes, the dangers of PAA (aside from lack of caution) would scale with batch size. Unknowns are also a factor though, and this forum is full of stories all about unknowns.

I deal with HF occasionally. I have training, equipment, and support and it still freaks me out a bit. Give me Cl2 and NO2 any day of the week. Better “the devil you know…”


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

You used the analogy of burning wood earlier. That is more or less the same. The temperature rises and the wood decompose into fractions that are ignitable.
If the decomposition speed gets high enough for an exotermic process it may/will go out of control and you have an combustion or explosion on your hands.

Same with any compound. When the conditions are "favorable for that" they will decompose. Hydrogen peroxide will decompose slowly by itself.


Edit to add:
Jado beat me to it and quite eloquent at that.


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## butcher (Dec 19, 2021)

When water flashes to steam it expands 1700 times.
What a chemist called bumping a boiler man calls a water hammer, it can break piping.
In the lab, bumping can make the boiling flask bounce around on the chemist's hotplate.

Wood sawdust or other types of fine dust, cotton lint, carbon, corn ... can decompose in a pretty violent chemical reaction. the wood or dust in a chemical reaction with oxygen, producing water, carbon monoxide (CO) (incomplete combustion) and with more oxygen forms carbon dioxide and water with (complete combustion) and of course ash.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

A question to the community in general and the chemists among us.

What can peracetic acid do?
Are there any chemical upside to use it at all?

It is considered a weak acid, that is about the only thing I know about it.

But can it do anything our preferred acids can't?

Per-Ove


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## Jado (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> A question to the community in general and the chemists among us.
> 
> What can peracetic acid do?
> Are there any chemical upside to use it at all?
> ...


First incident report that came up https://envirotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mishandled-PAA.pdf


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> There’s a term “Bumping” used in chemistry for the pressure waves caused in reaction. Normally we try to avoid bumping as it tends to send hot acid flying at our faces and can also ruin glassware and everything around it (like our faces). With a flash point lower than the boiling point of water (at atm), it only takes 1 mol to reach temp and cause a bump which in turn causes a pressure wave (high pressure sent outward, leaves low pressure inward) and now you have a mass of instantly boiling PAA. Temperature and pressure are married, tied at the hip, liplocked and wearing the same Tshirt.
> 
> And yes, the dangers of PAA (aside from lack of caution) would scale with batch size. Unknowns are also a factor though, and this forum is full of stories all about unknowns.
> 
> I deal with HF occasionally. I have training, equipment, and support and it still freaks me out a bit. Give me Cl2 and NO2 any day of the week. Better “the devil you know…”


Lmfao. Bro. Your humor is immeasurably fantastic. I can't even. xD


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> First incident report that came up https://envirotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mishandled-PAA.pdf


I think you misunderstood me, my bad. I'll rephrase.
What can it dissolve, what can it not dissolve, can it do things our preferred and tested processes can't.

Per-Ove


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> First incident report that came up https://envirotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mishandled-PAA.pdf


I actually has read this too! THE BABOON put it in a normal steel instead of Stainless or something ridiculous LMAO! The owner had said "luckily it was the weekend, so no one got hurt".... Like ohmy.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> I think you misunderstood me, my bad. I'll rephrase.
> What can it dissolve, what can it not dissolve, can it do things our preferred and tested processes can't.
> 
> Per-Ove


Looks like it can eat everything up to Ag a bit, but I'll let other's answer from here as to I keep, and remain saying I have not dug too deep yet. I am fascinated with learning complexes atm.

We gotta be able to see the exothermic predictions/equations with certain materials I'd imagine.


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## Jado (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> I think you misunderstood me, my bad. I'll rephrase.
> What can it dissolve, what can it not dissolve, can it do things our preferred and tested processes can't.
> 
> Per-Ove


Oh you meant positive arguments. Ok, I’ll try to reword it positively…

PAA is capable of self catalyzing, which allows it to drive it’s own reactions without needing to add heat or agitation.

It should also be able to dissolve most pot epoxies and lacquers.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> Oh you meant positive arguments. Ok, I’ll try to reword it positively…
> 
> PAA is capable of self catalyzing, which allows it to drive it’s own reactions without needing to add heat or agitation.
> 
> It should also be able to dissolve most pot epoxies and lacquers.


Not necessarily positive.
But I get your drift.

So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
Maybe PCBs but then why use it, it probably cost more and when safety come into consideration.... 

Per-Ove


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> Oh you meant positive arguments. Ok, I’ll try to reword it positively…
> 
> PAA is capable of self catalyzing, which allows it to drive it’s own reactions without needing to add heat or agitation.
> 
> It should also be able to dissolve most pot epoxies and lacquers.


Nice. lol.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Not necessarily positive.
> But I get your drift.
> 
> So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
> ...


Okay. I will be hypocritical, and say one last thing I hope before I annoy; for me I want Peroxyacetic to eat Cu over nitric. That's literally it. HCL on hot can do a lot to many things except lead apparently? It (peroxy) may take out Ag as well, and that is fine too.

Then you roll on over to chlorate salts/HCL, or AP method and hallehullya. Back to your norm.

Might get away with diluted H2O2 to chop lead down too.

*RAW H2O2*

This is possibly interestingly scary depending on what it exactly reacts with with other materials present. Looks like chains of Hydroxyl groups, and not fun to touch.

->Iron and hydrogen peroxide are capable of oxidizing a wide range of substrates and causing biological damage. The reaction, referred to as the *Fenton reaction*, is complex and capable of generating both hydroxyl radicals and higher oxidation states of the iron.

->Iron and hydrogen peroxide are capable of oxidizing a wide range of substrates and causing biological damage. The reaction, referred to as the Fenton reaction, is complex and capable of generating both hydroxyl radicals and higher oxidation states of the iron. The mechanism and how it is affected by different chelators, and the interpretation of results obtained in biological systems, are discussed.

->The hydroxyl radical (•OH) is *the major intermediate reactive responsible for organic substrate oxidation*. The free radical HO2• and its conjugate O2•− are also involved in degradation processes but are much less reactive than free hydroxyl radicals.

Why, and how people show off it's yikes effect on organics.

*Peracetic*
Peracetic, or peroxyacetic acid, is characterized by a very rapid action against all microorganisms.
****Special advantages of peracetic acid include its lack of harmful decomposition products (i.e., acetic acid, water, oxygen, hydrogen peroxide)

Peracetic acid is *very aggressive* to soft metals such as iron, copper, zinc and brass. All these metals corrode quickly and release transition metal ions into solution. Transition metals catalyze the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide(H2O2) that the product also contains. Oxygen gas is produced.
-Basically control the H2O2 by dripping. Thus controlling stabilization, and chain reaction runaway.

*Acetic*
-Acetic acid is *mildly corrosive to* metals including iron, magnesium, and zinc, forming hydrogen gas and salts called acetates: Mg + 2 CH3COOH → (CH3COO)2Mg + H. Because aluminium forms a passivating acid-resistant film of aluminium oxide, aluminium tanks are used to transport acetic acid.

-2 oxidizers of Fe-> faster reaction->faster decomp, and possible heating effect.
Oxides cannot resist.

-Vinegar, 5% acetic acid, *will dissolve iron oxides*, both rust Fe2O3, and magnetite Fe3O4. Rust, is red and flakey and offers NO protection to the metal.

Just learned I boiled away some acid in my refining of the vinegar. Had brass above the boil on purpose... where mainly H2O2 comes in.
Generally, *pure copper does not react with acetic acid*; however, a reactive oxide layer is formed upon exposure to air. This layer interacts with non-oxidizing acids to give green copper(II) compounds (DeMeo, 1997; Tétreault et al., 2003), namely copper(II) acetate.

*Lead acetate toxicity*:
4.6.

Lead acetate is a white crystalline compound of lead with a sweetish taste. Known as “sugar of lead”, it is water-soluble and one of the most bioavailable forms of lead. Similar to other lead compounds, it *is very poisonous and soluble in water*.

Feel hungry? Zinc and acetic-> Na Acetate
Is sodium acetate edible?
Sodium acetate (anhydrous) is widely used as a shelf-life extending agent, pH control agent *It is safe to eat at low concentration*. (just saw this random answer. doesn't look right, but idk)

--zinc acetate: near edible, and used in capsules for zinc deficiency. reference:


zinc acetate - Google Search



*Nickel*
Does acetic acid react with nickel?
-Ni shown active-passive transition in acetic acid solutions of concentration 0.5 – 5 and 13 M. ... The corrosion of Ni in acid acetic solutions is controlled by the diffusion of the dissolved oxygen at the interface metal/solution. The evolution hydrogen reaction has an insignificant roll in the Ni corrosion.

-Is nickel acetate toxic?:
NICKEL ACETATE is a green, crystalline material, *mildly toxic and carcinogenic*. Combustible when exposed to heat or flame. When heated to decomposition it emits acrid smoke and irritating fumes.

-Thermogravimetry, differential thermal analysis, X-ray diffractometry and infrared spectroscopy showed that Ni(CH3COO)2·4H2O decomposes completely at *500°C*, giving rise to a mixture of Nio and NiO. The results revealed that the compound undergoes dehydration at 160°C and melts at 310°C.

Stainless might not be appropriate. Chart of reactivity:





Metals - Corrosion Resistance to Aggresive Fluids


Common metals and their corrosion resistance to aggressive fluids like acids, bases and more.




www.engineeringtoolbox.com





Reference 2 for reactivity chart:


https://marketing.industrialspec.com/acton/attachment/30397/f-003a/1/-/-/-/-/316l-stainless-steel-chemical-compatibility-from-ism.pdf



302, and 304 Stainless looks good.

****Conclusion.... Yes please for the most part. Only unsure of Fe ligands and their confusing big brother Chelates.
THEN WE HAVE MAGNETS. Isn't life so nice?

Edited for breaking the forum rules.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Not necessarily positive.
> But I get your drift.
> 
> So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
> ...


There's your new refining bible in essence (potentially). Nitric is time saving, but acetic is organic, and is edible (depending). Again, on the depending: I do not know at what concentrations these reactions take place, so testing, and research required, but there's a whole book in what? An hour or so? Nearly all directions pointed out.

I'd do this:
1). Remove ferromagnetics- Magnet tests.
2). HCL baths hot if preferred.
3). Acetic bathes for reactive metals. Excluding copper potentially. (testing required).
4). Acetic, or just raw H2O2 (always nice to have a body for H2O2 rather than raw)- destroys Cu, Ag, and remnants of contaminant traces.
***IF YOU LOVE HNO3 DO A WASH********
5). (Chlorate salts+HCL+Au), OR (AP route), OR (AR)=
gold ligands (aq) solution+potentially Pd groups. Unsure of Pd's really.
6). SMB drop/SO2 treatments (bubble) when PH is appropriate?... (I'm actually unsure of these rules/balancing on this haha)


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## orvi (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Peracetic acid is *very aggressive* to soft metals such as iron, copper, zinc and brass. All these metals corrode quickly and release transition metal ions into solution. *Transition metals catalyze the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide(H2O2) that the product also contains.* Oxygen gas is produced.
> -Basically control the H2O2 by dripping. Thus controlling stabilization, and chain reaction runaway.


This should give you a very good answer. If you want to use peracetic acid instead of nitric/HCl, for the purpose of what you want to do with them, it will not work better.
1. it will be slow from beginning - acetic and peracetic acids are WEAK acids, dissolution will be slow compared to mineral acids like HCl, sulfuric or nitric acids.
2. these reactions are unefficient hence the catalytic decomposition of the peroxide bond in either PAA and hydrogen peroxide - peroxidic bond =* oxidizer is spent without effect*. This worsen with temperature and metal content in the pot. 
3. peracetic and acetic acid as organic acids will f**k up many types of plastics (PE and PP are mostly resistant, but some types will swell over time) and will likely go through the ANY easily obtainable commercial gloves.

Many manufacturers will proudly say that their products stay intact and acid will not go through. It is very easy to test, hence acetic acid could be "analysed" with your nose in ppm concentrations  just put on the gloves, drop some acid on them, wait few minutes, get it off your hand and then smell your fingers  

And the peroxide part in the PAA will get fun time epoxidizing every unsaturated bond in the rubber/nitrile  developing cracks, losing flexibility...
4. as it would be unefficient, it will be EXPENSIVE to use PAA as substitute for cheap and stable acids like nitric or hydrochloric.
5. as an organic acid and very good solvent, it will likely dissolve all kinds of resins, glues, certain plastics and paints. If you apply this to material with these things, they will dissolve into the solution. I dont want to imagine rinsing these residues out of any product I will obtain with this method. Slightest contact with water will cause back-precipitation of these resin/paint/glue residues as sticky water-repelling mess  try to dissolve some polystyrene in acetone and then dump it into the water 
It means that every _product you will get from impure starting materials_ will need to be washed with ORGANIC SOLVENT before water. Additional cost and waste created.
6. if you are not fan of vinegar smell overall, than good luck with higher concentrations  PAA is even worse, penetrating smell get all over the place... from organic stuff still one of the "milder" chemicals tho. 
I dont say you cannot get used to it (as I am from years of working with all kinds of funky chemicals). 

If nitrogen oxides are issue for you, then you could process material with HCl/oxygen. Or use nitric with addition of hydrogen peroxide. Nitrogen oxides will be oxidized back to nitric acid, regenerating your stuff and producing only minute ammounts of brown gas 
For copper, _diluted sulfuric acid_ with adition of hydrogen peroxide will also do the job. No fumes will come out except some oxygen. Practically speaking, you could buy peroxodisulfate for etching PCB boards. Very similar outcome, but i dont think this would be cost efficient.
And if all stated chemicals here get you nervous, then you can smelt your material down and electrorefine it.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> This should give you a very good answer. If you want to use peracetic acid instead of nitric/HCl, for the purpose of what you want to do with them, it will not work better.
> 1. it will be slow from beginning - acetic and peracetic acids are WEAK acids, dissolution will be slow compared to mineral acids like HCl, sulfuric or nitric acids.
> 2. these reactions are unefficient hence the catalytic decomposition of the peroxide bond in either PAA and hydrogen peroxide - peroxidic bond =* oxidizer is spent without effect*. This worsen with temperature and metal content in the pot.
> 3. peracetic and acetic acid as organic acids will f**k up many types of plastics (PE and PP are mostly resistant, but some types will swell over time) and will likely go through the ANY easily obtainable commercial gloves.
> ...


For weak acids sure... Make it slightly stronger.... Read that a company makes 15% and something like 30%H2O2 mix with 1% sulfuric, or something, and it works just fine at being in plastic....like others mention you don't combine them for storage....... what?

Why do you have plastics, and glue?! HCL can eat them anyways, so that would be my first choice. Even H2O2/vinegar at 3%, and 5% is used to pop off gold foils. Takes awhile sure. What are you refining?!

"It means that every _product you will get from impure starting materials_ will need to be washed with ORGANIC SOLVENT before water."

-I am not sure what this means as to Acetic comes diluted in water... You wouldn't make like 90-99% Acetic. Also, dumping, or decanting is with every process. ?????????

"For copper, _diluted sulfuric acid_ with adition of hydrogen peroxide will also do the job. No fumes will come out except some oxygen. Practically speaking, you could buy peroxodisulfate for etching PCB boards"

-That seems like a scarier reaction! Wouldn't refine entire boards regardless. Their scrap value clean is high for greens/and even for browns for having near nothing lol.

You are flip flopping being profitable!


----------



## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> Many manufacturers will proudly say that their products stay intact and acid will not go through. It is very easy to test, hence acetic acid could be "analysed" with your nose in ppm concentrations  just put on the gloves, drop some acid on them, wait few minutes, get it off your hand and then smell your fingers
> 
> And the peroxide part in the PAA will get fun time epoxidizing every unsaturated bond in the rubber/nitrile  developing cracks, losing flexibility...


Whoever may read this. Never test gloves like this. If anything have patience if you don't believe charts, and submerge them a bit into whatever acid. Never expose yourself.... LIKE WHAT?

Sir I wear Latex over Nitrile, and will get Butyl to go over the Latex..... You even just said you would see failure of the gloves firstly.

This is Earth right? Where am I?


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> This should give you a very good answer. If you want to use peracetic acid instead of nitric/HCl, for the purpose of what you want to do with them, it will not work better.
> 1. it will be slow from beginning - acetic and peracetic acids are WEAK acids, dissolution will be slow compared to mineral acids like HCl, sulfuric or nitric acids.
> 2. these reactions are unefficient hence the catalytic decomposition of the peroxide bond in either PAA and hydrogen peroxide - peroxidic bond =* oxidizer is spent without effect*. This worsen with temperature and metal content in the pot.
> 3. peracetic and acetic acid as organic acids will f**k up many types of plastics (PE and PP are mostly resistant, but some types will swell over time) and will likely go through the ANY easily obtainable commercial gloves.
> ...


Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............
?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.

But honestly thanks for the part on efficiency. Duly noted.

You gotta have better reasons than those to diverge my interest in this process with this solution...... If anything you just enhanced my excitement lmao.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

It is a weak acid, nothing about concentration, even if it was 100% it would still be a weak acid.

And when you start dissolving something, the dissolved metals will act as a catalyst decomposing the peroxide quite fast so you end up with acetic acid, which is even weaker.

Sorry mate, you can try, but I'm afraid you will be disappointed.
Probably better to add salt to acetic acid, it will create a weak HCl.

Per-Ove


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> It is a weak acid, nothing about concentration, even if it was 100% it would still be a weak acid.
> 
> And when you start dissolving something, the dissolved metals will act as a catalyst decomposing the peroxide quite fast so you end up with acetic acid, which is even weaker.
> 
> ...


Will do. Seemed to eat brass nicely. Only a drip or 2 of H2O2. H2O2 is what always will decompose rapidly..... because it is H2O2. It degrades when just open.... Just wanted to share my findings. Much luck with it, and stay careful!


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> It is a weak acid, nothing about concentration, even if it was 100% it would still be a weak acid.
> 
> And when you start dissolving something, the dissolved metals will act as a catalyst decomposing the peroxide quite fast so you end up with acetic acid, which is even weaker.
> 
> ...


Also, just 5% from vapors started eating my brass I left above my boiling vinegar. Never heard of a weak acid doing that so rapidly. It will of course take longer than nitric, and I already stated that. With the speed you guys claim to be going at start a business. That's nutty tbh.

Again google- Peracetic acid can corrode copper, brass, bronze, plain steel, and galvanized iron, but these *effects can be reduced by additives and pH modifications*. 
-It will always become weaker as solution becomes saturated.


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## orvi (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............
> ?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
> This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.
> 
> ...


I dont exactly know from where you get those prices, but for industrial tech grade chemicals... that is quite a price.
Obtaining H2O2 from hair bleaching products may cost this ammount, but p.a. grade 35% peroxide here (purchased with license of course, otherwise prohibited for public) cost about 2,5 euros per liter. Nitric and hydrochloric roughly the same, if not a bit less. 

I try to "profesionally" discourage you from doing this, as this might lead to early frustration on the recovery processes  always stick to industrial methods firs. Folks out there invest unhealthy ammounts of money just to figure out what is the best and most cost/work effective way.
I was also enthusiastic about my ideas when i firstly stepped in to this field, but quickly dissapointed with unexpected things that happened. There is a reason nobody is using this procedure in refining.

I know you will persist and do this no matter what I will tell you, but i just give you my partly educated opinion.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> I dont exactly know from where you get those prices, but for industrial tech grade chemicals... that is quite a price.
> Obtaining H2O2 from hair bleaching products may cost this ammount, but p.a. grade 35% peroxide here (purchased with license of course, otherwise prohibited for public) cost about 2,5 euros per liter. Nitric and hydrochloric roughly the same, if not a bit less.
> 
> I try to "profesionally" discourage you from doing this, as this might lead to early frustration on the recovery processes  always stick to industrial methods firs. Folks out there invest unhealthy ammounts of money just to figure out what is the best and most cost/work effective way.
> ...


Seems an odd way "to "profesionally" discourage" someone. Even threw in some dangerous glove testing in there as well...... That is not professional. These are what they cost in the Us, and I can buy nitric all day. Did not see a license # requirement/warning, or anything of any sort. H2O2 is used to dilute into the 3% disinfectant which I use anyways.... You saved me from the 10$ 2 liters of vinegar.......
EU though.... God have mercy upon them with Russia's and China's nearing lmao. EU allows nothing in all seriousness.


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## orvi (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Also, just 5% from vapors started eating my brass I left above my boiling vinegar. Never heard of a weak acid doing that so rapidly. It will of course take longer than nitric, and I already stated that. With the speed you guys claim to be going at start a business. That's nutty tbh.
> 
> Again google- Peracetic acid can corrode copper, brass, bronze, plain steel, and galvanized iron, but these *effects can be reduced by additives and pH modifications*.
> -It will always become weaker as solution becomes saturated.


Brass is alloy of zinc and copper. Zinc is very easily eaten up also by medium and low strength acids, leaving very active copper nanostructures - and these could be dissolved even with vinegar and peroxide. No surprise.

Try to do it with bulk copper, or other ferrous alloys and you will recognize the difference. 
The fact that it does corrode some metals... Yes, it could. Also atmospheric CO2 with moisture can corrode brass or copper to it´s hydrated carbonate-hydroxide. No discussion about it.
Will I use it for dissolving things ? No 

Anyway, good tip was given - adding salt to your mixture to speed up the process.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> I dont exactly know from where you get those prices, but for industrial tech grade chemicals... that is quite a price.
> Obtaining H2O2 from hair bleaching products may cost this ammount, but p.a. grade 35% peroxide here (purchased with license of course, otherwise prohibited for public) cost about 2,5 euros per liter. Nitric and hydrochloric roughly the same, if not a bit less.
> 
> I try to "profesionally" discourage you from doing this, as this might lead to early frustration on the recovery processes  always stick to industrial methods firs. Folks out there invest unhealthy ammounts of money just to figure out what is the best and most cost/work effective way.
> ...


What? 5.6$ for nitric yet you say my prices are good? What the heck is that price? You buying like 1 molar?


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> Brass is alloy of zinc and copper. Zinc is very easily eaten up also by medium and low strength acids, leaving very active copper nanostructures - and these could be dissolved even with vinegar and peroxide. No surprise.
> 
> Try to do it with bulk copper, or other ferrous alloys and you will recognize the difference.
> The fact that it does corrode some metals... Yes, it could. Also atmospheric CO2 with moisture can corrode brass or copper to it´s hydrated carbonate-hydroxide. No discussion about it.
> ...


I already said I would remove ferromagnetics. You don't read yet "Professionally discourage" people. I just need something to deal with Cu. Possibly Ag could get annoying as well.

Good tip?! HCL DOES NOTHING TO COPPER WHAT. He stated it makes HCL. Do you read people's posts?!


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## orvi (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Seems an odd way "to "profesionally" discourage" someone. Even threw in some dangerous glove testing in there as well...... That is not professional. These are what they cost in the Us, and I can buy nitric all day. Did not see a license # requirement/warning, or anything of any sort. H2O2 is used to dilute into the 3% disinfectant which I use anyways.... You saved me from the 10$ 2 liters of vinegar.......
> EU though.... God have mercy upon them with Russia's and China's nearing lmao. EU allows nothing in all seriousness.


To the "gloves" issue... I have experience with all kind of organic stuff. To this day, no gloves that are economically feasible to use in the lab will not protect you from certain chemicals. Try to wash the glass with acetone in any gloves and you will quickly see them disintegrate and swell.
Acetic acid is not considered toxic and burns develop only after prolonged exposures (dozens of minutes with shi**y cheap thin gloves). Every glove, even the most shi**y latex one will give you good level of protection for few minutes, but the "smell test" was here to prove you that it would leak the acid over time. Ppm ammounts from start, when latex/nitrile swell, bunch more. Gloves just BUY YOU TIME to get them off your hands when you spill something on them. Altough with mineral acids like HCl, this time is much much greater. I apologize if you get this from the wrong angle. I will never advise anything which could harm you.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> To the "gloves" issue... I have experience with all kind of organic stuff. To this day, no gloves that are economically feasible to use in the lab will not protect you from certain chemicals. Try to wash the glass with acetone in any gloves and you will quickly see them disintegrate and swell.
> Acetic acid is not considered toxic and burns develop only after prolonged exposures (dozens of minutes with shi**y cheap thin gloves). Every glove, even the most shi**y latex one will give you good level of protection for few minutes, but the "smell test" was here to prove you that it would leak the acid over time. Ppm ammounts from start, when latex/nitrile swell, bunch more. Gloves just BUY YOU TIME to get them off your hands when you spill something on them. Altough with mineral acids like HCl, this time is much much greater. I apologize if you get this from the wrong angle. I will never advise anything which could harm you.


Im still wondering how you were astonished by my prices.... Where are you getting lab grade nitric 67ish% to 70% for 5$ a liter? I get HCL 32%, and clear as glass for 5$ a liter, and I thought that was decent. Lmao. I wear lots of gloves. Any initial spills I neutralize, and dilute after with water. No real worries with weaker non-fuming acids there.

Also, give me resolve then. What would you use for Cu that is not Sulfuric, or Nitric?


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## orvi (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> What? 5.6$ for nitric yet you say my prices are good? What the heck is that price? You buying like 1 molar?


Srry, i used bad formulation. English is not my first language. I meant it is quite expensive.
I reffer to standard 65-68% nitric, sp.grav 1,5. 
Things are very different here and in US as i read these discussions. For some reason nitric is quite expensive in the US. I somehow dont get it. You aslo must use fertilizers and stuff, in manufacture of those nitric is involved in vast quantities. Somebody in the chain is ripping people off quite a lot when it comes to buy straight nitric for ordinary person.
Straight from the factory, bulk price for tech grade 50% nitric is near half euro per liter. I am wondering where the price add up so exponentionally in the chain  but this is for another discussion.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> Srry, i used bad formulation. English is not my first language. I meant it is quite expensive.
> I reffer to standard 65-68% nitric, sp.grav 1,5.
> Things are very different here and in US as i read these discussions. For some reason nitric is quite expensive in the US. I somehow dont get it. You aslo must use fertilizers and stuff, in manufacture of those nitric is involved in vast quantities. Somebody in the chain is ripping people off quite a lot when it comes to buy straight nitric for ordinary person.
> Straight from the factory, bulk price for tech grade 50% nitric is near half euro per liter. I am wondering where the price add up so exponentionally in the chain  but this is for another discussion.


There we go haha. That makes sense. Holy WOW. Now at those prices you are swimming in money. NOW I GET THE WHOLE WORSHIPING NITRIC. lmfao. This actually explained a ton. Yeah over here it's like hundreds.....hundreds. No wonder everyone buys over gold price on Ebay. Their damn refining is 0$ xD
Well shit. Now that is "professionally discouraging"
Over here it's 50$ per 1.25 liters. Literally, or more. Best I had was what I bought awhile back at 350$ for 10 liters. lmao


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## orvi (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> I already said I would remove ferromagnetics. You don't read yet "Professionally discourage" people. I just need something to deal with Cu. Possibly Ag could get annoying as well.
> 
> Good tip?! HCL DOES NOTHING TO COPPER WHAT. He stated it makes HCL. Do you read people's posts?!


You will use oxidizer. In acidic enviroment, copper will be dissolved anyway. But chlorides enhance corrosion of majority of metals. Try it with dull copper penny. Soak it in vinegar, and nothing spectacular happen. Than add salt to it and soak it again  you will see the difference. 

We given our best opinions on dealing and dissolving the copper. Mineral acids, electrolysis, maybe classic etchants like CuCl2 or peroxodisulfates, FeCl3... 
I will not give you better nor "greener" and safer alternative, because I don´t know any of the kind.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> You will use oxidizer. In acidic enviroment, copper will be dissolved anyway. But chlorides enhance corrosion of majority of metals. Try it with dull copper penny. Soak it in vinegar, and nothing spectacular happen. Than add salt to it and soak it again  you will see the difference.
> 
> We given our best opinions on dealing and dissolving the copper. Mineral acids, electrolysis, maybe classic etchants like CuCl2 or peroxodisulfates, FeCl3...
> I will not give you better nor "greener" and safer alternative, because I don´t know any of the kind.


I mean.... At those prices, and competition points basically my hope has turned into vomiting in a corner lmao. You have no clue the hate I have for this place already. That increased it immeasurably, and I don't even like nitric. xD

I shall try that, but pennies aren't just pure copper... HCL also doesn't do anything to raw copper wire, but I'll try it.

At this point I'll sell my gold scrap to ebay. That is ridiculous. Other metals will go to the refiners/scrap yard, or make some bars for fun.


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## butcher (Dec 19, 2021)

Vinegar and H2O2 may attack metals, sure lots of things will do that, but it is pretty much useless in recovery and refining in general, Period.

Trying to prove something you do not understand is useless as counting on peracetic acid to be some kind of miracle breakthrough or to be a safer alternative.

II is not better or safer and there are no real benefits.
Using it is just as useless as trying to prove it useful, or a safe alternative.
The time spent trying to argue a moot point could be better spent actually learning.


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## justinhcase (Dec 19, 2021)

orvi said:


> Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.


From mild irritation to caustic burns, depending on the concentration of the gas at the time of exposure. It is a very severe irritant of the lungs,
mucous membranes, skin and eyes. The reaction of this gas with moisture produces
hydrofluoric acid. Thermal burns have been reported when fluorine gas comes in
contact with the skin due to the violent reaction between the skin and the gas.
Direct contact with liquid fluorine can cause frostbite. The lungs appear to be the
most affected tissue. Respiratory tract irritation may progress to pulmonary edema.
The Germans look at it as a flamethrower on steroids that could eat through reinforced bunkers and thought it too dangerous and extrema to use, which should give you some idea of its potency.


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## Geo (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> That is quite the frightening story, and glad he turned around. Most dangerous thing to do is going alone when there is a leak. What fumes are emitted to do that exactly? It appears explosive due to H, and O, but didn't see much else. Reminder* I didn't do heavy research on peroxyacetic just yet, but seems to have some potential at first glance.


They never said exactly what the cause was but knowing a little about it myself, I don't think it was the PAA itself. I'm assuming that it was something in the room that the drums and pump was in. There was also hydraulic pumps and prior hydraulic oil spills that had been cleaned but residues remained, the concrete floor, rubber hoses, wood framing. Lot's of organic material in the room and the PAA was under pressure and sprayed out onto everything. The gasses and vapors could have represented anything. He was given a key to the door because he is the one that changed the drums out besides being the one that sprayed the equipment down. The drums contained more concentrated liquid and the pumps were dosing pumps as the solution that was sprayed on the equipment was diluted. He was never instructed about the dangers and never informed what chemical it was. Poultry processing plants are notorious about putting employees at risk without informing them of the dangers. He did wear gloves and a respirator when changing the drums but was never told why.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Geo said:


> They never said exactly what the cause was but knowing a little about it myself, I don't think it was the PAA itself. I'm assuming that it was something in the room that the drums and pump was in. There was also hydraulic pumps and prior hydraulic oil spills that had been cleaned but residues remained, the concrete floor, rubber hoses, wood framing. Lot's of organic material in the room and the PAA was under pressure and sprayed out onto everything. The gasses and vapors could have represented anything. He was given a key to the door because he is the one that changed the drums out besides being the one that sprayed the equipment down. The drums contained more concentrated liquid and the pumps were dosing pumps as the solution that was sprayed on the equipment was diluted. He was never instructed about the dangers and never informed what chemical it was. Poultry processing plants are notorious about putting employees at risk without informing them of the dangers. He did wear gloves and a respirator when changing the drums but was never told why.


Sounds like it, and crazy story what companies do. They'll always safeguard their recipes, or process over health it seems... They should always say at least what carts to get 
(organic vapor carts), and why they need them. That's insanity.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

butcher said:


> Vinegar and H2O2 may attack metals, sure lots of things will do that, but it is pretty much useless in recovery and refining in general, Period.
> 
> Trying to prove something you do not understand is useless as counting on peracetic acid to be some kind of miracle breakthrough or to be a safer alternative.
> 
> ...


That's why I was asking people you twit lmao. Only after I brought a entire book did Orvi (not even orvi) it was Yggdrasil who pointed out why it wouldn't work. So snobby! Good lord!
Never claimed to know anything either, and you don't apparently read.... I said this is what I am seeing lol.
You just piggyback on other's finding and discussions to be toxic whenever you can.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

butcher said:


> Vinegar and H2O2 may attack metals, sure lots of things will do that, but it is pretty much useless in recovery and refining in general, Period.
> 
> Trying to prove something you do not understand is useless as counting on peracetic acid to be some kind of miracle breakthrough or to be a safer alternative.
> 
> ...


So, how would nitric be better at disassociating/oxidize, or just being corrosive?

Hydrochloric acid (HCl): pKa = *-6.3*.

Nitric acid in water has a pKa of *-1.3*

Acids under 0 get stronger.

I see it Acid prevalence, and Oxidation agent-
Nitric acid is *a strong acid*, completely ionized into hydronium (H3O+) and nitrate (NO3-) ions in an aqueous solution, and a powerful oxidizing agent.

Same reasoning why AP, or any chlorine + oxidizer work. People still do use Acetic, and H2O2 for home refining.... If you made a stronger solution of the 22 I'd assume the speed would improve. I don't have such luxuries to get HNO3 for $0.50 a FREKAING LITER. That's awesome for Europe though. Good on em me chap.

Shows why Nitric always need a base of water-
Does nitric acid completely ionize in water?
Nitric acid decomposes into water, nitrogen dioxide, and oxygen, forming a brownish yellow solution. It is a strong acid, *completely ionized into hydronium (H3O+)* and nitrate (NO3−) ions in aqueous solution, and a powerful oxidizing agent (one that acts as electron acceptor in oxidation-reduction reactions).


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## butcher (Dec 19, 2021)

What is IMAO, sounds like something a young child says? Is this some kind of new language?

If you wish to learn and share with this forum I suggest you find some manners in your conversation.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

butcher said:


> What is IMAO, sounds like something a young child says? Is this some kind of new language?
> 
> If you wish to learn and share with this forum I suggest you find some manners in your conversation.


Butcher you have none whatsoever. Respect is earned, and never granted for no reasoning.
to whom were respectable I respected.
I also already mentioned a few times I am the worst speller known to man. Already beat you to that, but it shows how much attention you really have, and the things your eyes, and mind choose to highlight in conversation.


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## butcher (Dec 19, 2021)

PH percent hydrogen, or the dissociation of the hydrogen or the hydronium ion can give us an idea or measure of hydrogen and or its acidic strength and how it may react to a base. it is not a measure of which acid is better as an oxidizing agent, or which would be better to dissolve certain metals.
Or how well it will attack a metal like gold, or if it could even attack gold.


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## butcher (Dec 19, 2021)

I do not need your respect, I have enough of my own.

Although sir you would do well to show some respect to others, it may do you some good, and also possibly you could then earn some respect for yourself.

As I said I do not play games, if that is your goal here, you will not be here for long.

.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

butcher said:


> I do not need your respect, I have enough of my own.
> 
> Although sir you would do well to show some respect to others, it may do you some good, and also possibly you could then earn some respect for yourself.
> 
> ...


I'm envisioning it like this: disassociation, or Nitric breaking into 2 parts in essence with the chloride ions present all does it's own work to do the reaction.
I think we can clearly see you don't need anyone's respect, or to respect anyone. This is petty, and that IS a game Butcher.... You didn't even mention who you think I "Disrespected" when I said the exact opposite. You are heavily generic in claims, and don't provide much context, or evidence..... That's playing. I also never said you need my respect. You are heavily deluded...


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

I have only been here 7 years so I missed the infamous Dr.Poe.
But as far as my time here you have created more ruckus and frankly, noise than all others I have met here.
And as far as I can see, without much gained or added.
You certainly seem to be smart enough to grasp the chemistry and techniques.
But like a Badger with a bone, don't seem to know when to quit.

So if your intent is to stay and learn, I suggest you wrap it up.

Just my humble 2 centavos.

Per-Ove


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## Elemental (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry,

Bold (and stupid) move to insult a 15 year member of this forum who is also one of our moderators. May your god(s) have mercy on you, because nobody here will. 

My thoughts: You ask questions that I would hear from first year chemistry student. A topical understanding but no foundational or theoretical knowledge or expertise. People have taken the time to explain things to you, but it feels like you just do a bit of googling and take everyone further down your rabbit-hole. I’ve followed this entire message and still don’t see your end state other than to argue a non-standard point of view on a dangerous chemical technique. Please enlighten me (us) of what you really want here. 

Here is my demand of you. Read Hoke’s book, do the Experiments starting on pg.15. Add a test for silver and gold as well. Document your findings of various concentrations of peracetic acid as your solvent. Try not to kill yourself. 

I think by just doing the above you’ll answer your own questions about this. This is real science! Feel free to ask questions afterwards about how to recover from the mess I believe you are about to create. Good luck, don’t die, and as a final note, stop pissing off our mods who volunteer their time and knowledge to us. Thanks

Elemental


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> I have only been here 7 years so I missed the infamous Dr.Poe.
> But as far as my time here you have created more ruckus and frankly, noise than all others I have met here.
> And as far as I can see, without much gained or added.
> You certainly seem to be smart enough to grasp the chemistry and techniques.
> ...


Quit what? I agreed with the solution, and even gave you credit...... but okay?


----------



## Jado (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Not necessarily positive.
> But I get your drift.
> 
> So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
> Maybe PCBs but then why use it, it probably cost Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............





CattMurry said:


> ?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
> This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.
> 
> But honestly thanks for the part on efficiency. Duly noted.
> ...





CattMurry said:


> Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............
> ?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
> This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.
> 
> ...


Sorry to butt in on safety AGAIN, but you’ll need 316SS, as both 304 & 302 will degrade. And there goes the cost margin…


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## Immaculatepreforming (Dec 19, 2021)

Elemental said:


> CattMurry,
> 
> Bold (and stupid) move to insult a 15 year member of this forum who is also one of our moderators. May your god(s) have mercy on you, because nobody here will.
> 
> ...


1. The member only condescends when I'm new, and doesn't even point out what I'm doing wrong. This is just in essence a gang. A member who demands respect afterward as well then bans me with a message saying "smartass" showing who has real power of silencing. Just like highschool bullies.
2. God has only shown be abuse in this world, so don't worry.
3. I'm not even a student like I have said I am still very new, and I thought professionals would understand my questions with a little more patience, and heart. I literally have said I am no chemist, and am very new. 2 days ago I didn't know what an ion was.... They did help, and I said that their conclusions were accurate.
4. Google is all I have, and is why I showed what I was looking at to get conformation, or the opposite. That's what science is no? 
5. You also did not read anything then, because I have said: I am looking for something to eat at CU, and At not using nitric. That was answered.
6. Seems like slow AP methods and stannous chloride tests will do I guess.
7. You also did not read one bit of me saying I don't jump the gun with experimenting..... I already said I only use a few milliliters per test.
8. This ain't real science at all. This is an opinionated gang who bans, and calls names, then defends one another just based on expertise, and nothing else. When butcher was normal in other threads I even talked to him perfectly normal, and was friendly. None of you can read, or even care to remember what is said.
9. Btw go ahead and ban I know IP tracking, and have many computers, and emails..... Awkward.


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## Immaculatepreforming (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> Sorry to butt in on safety AGAIN, but you’ll need 316SS, as both 304 & 302 will degrade. And there goes the cost margin…


Yes. I would only prefer to use such a method with vinegar + H2O2 for possibly removing foils. I got it now. It really eats Cu poorly, and not really at all.


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## Immaculatepreforming (Dec 19, 2021)

Jado said:


> Sorry to butt in on safety AGAIN, but you’ll need 316SS, as both 304 & 302 will degrade. And there goes the cost margin…


Also I'd watch even 316 SS. Reference:




__





Selection of stainless steels for handling acetic acid (CH3COOH) – British Stainless Steel Association







bssa.org.uk




Acetic anhydride (CH3CO)2O can be aggressive to either 304 or 316 types in the absence of any water and in the presence of chlorides.
Peracetic acid CH3C(O)OOH (peroxyacetic acid) should be safe with stainless steels.
Why I also provided a few charts with links to cross examine accuracy.

As you said though 316 is definitely preferred in hotter temps, and higher concentrations.


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## butcher (Dec 19, 2021)

I can push buttons too, I just do not like wasting my time that way, I would rather spend it learning from our good members here.

Bye Bye
Immaculatepreforming​I hope you find what you are looking for.


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## Elemental (Dec 19, 2021)

Immaculatepreforming said:


> 1. The member only condescends when I'm new, and doesn't even point out what I'm doing wrong. This is just in essence a gang. A member who demands respect afterward as well then bans me with a message saying "smartass" showing who has real power of silencing. Just like highschool bullies.
> 2. God has only shown be abuse in this world, so don't worry.
> 3. I'm not even a student like I have said I am still very new, and I thought professionals would understand my questions with a little more patience, and heart. I literally have said I am no chemist, and am very new. 2 days ago I didn't know what an ion was.... They did help, and I said that their conclusions were accurate.
> 4. Google is all I have, and is why I showed what I was looking at to get conformation, or the opposite. That's what science is no?
> ...


I did read you note about being afraid to experiment. This why I asked you to do an experiment that only requires that much. What you have shown is a refusal to even consider advice given in good faith. Did you even look at Hoke? The test is literally adding a few mL to each metal and noting the reaction. Which by the way is real science: Hypotheses, experimenting, observing, and documenting. 

Also, you received a two week ban from FrugalRefiner, his first ban ever, instead of accepting it, you immediately create an alternate account and defend your actions under the guise of naiveness. The problem is your lack of respect for others time, knowledge, and status in our community. You are nothing more than a child bursting into a graduate level inorganic chemistry demanding to be taught something that requires years of learning. 

You understand IP tracking and can avoid it. Cool. Tell you what, I’m a lead network engineer in the US Intelligence Community and I’ll offer up my knowledge and experience to the forum moderators for dealing with people like you. Mods, Please let me know if you’d like any assistance. I’ll gladly help. 

As for you, CattMurry I have nothing more to offer you. Good luck with refining. Seems like you’re going to need it. 

Elemental


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## orvi (Dec 20, 2021)

Elemental said:


> I did read you note about being afraid to experiment. This why I asked you to do an experiment that only requires that much. What you have shown is a refusal to even consider advice given in good faith. Did you even look at Hoke? The test is literally adding a few mL to each metal and noting the reaction. Which by the way is real science: Hypotheses, experimenting, observing, and documenting.
> 
> Also, you received a two week ban from FrugalRefiner, his first ban ever, instead of accepting it, you immediately create an alternate account and defend your actions under the guise of naiveness. The problem is your lack of respect for others time, knowledge, and status in our community. You are nothing more than a child bursting into a graduate level inorganic chemistry demanding to be taught something that requires years of learning.
> 
> ...


I doubt there will be any experimenting. For me it was like he was just defending the first idea what comes to his mind.

He said, that he will rather sell his scrap on eBay, so he has material in hand. Not very keen to explore science behind his hypothesis. With access to vinegar (or acetic acid) and hydrogen peroxide, he could perform any kind of experiment proving him right or wrong... But as I expected, nothing happened. 
Not very scientific, argue about science behind and don´t perform any experiments. But whatever, we will see if somebody ever use the vinegar for recovering values from scrap ending up in green numbers  i would be happy if it was that easy.

_I know this syndrome from real world, because i also teach under/graduates chemistry labs. Students will come and argue about their completely nonsense/stupid answer to the question, persuading you that this tiny part is correct according to Google or some other literature. That this 10% part of it is right and they deserve some points for it, forgeting that 90% of the answer is complete nonsense. Not accepting that it was probably just random coincidence or guess.
They will dig up any kind of evidence helping them prove me wrong to earn the points. Aside of, they could LEARN THE THING properly and understand the process well enough, that it will in the end give something to them as they finish like bachelors or masters._


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## Geo (Dec 20, 2021)

Thank you Richard. I appreciate that. I just was reading what he said. It's been awhile but I had a few choice words for our friend. From the time I joined this forum, you were always the voice of calm reason. Someone like that makes my skin crawl. I just want to reach through the monitor and shake them until their teeth rattle. You win a gold star for your patience as I would have tossed him the first time he acted like that. 
I guess in all that wisdom he was showing off, he didn't seem to know about an IP ban. Oh well, sucks to be him.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 20, 2021)

I'm baffled by this guy.
Eloquent in certain passages yet with some streaks of adolescent language in between.
Seemed intelligent and awake, still he kept pushing his narrative until the dam broke.

When I asked him, in my eyes nicely but sternly to stop his campaign, if he wanted to stay.

He more or less indicated that I owed him some kind of allegiance since he had endorsed me.

I really do not understand the way some people act.
But I hope he gets his acts together.

Then he can stay, somehow I think he may be an asset on the forum, if he learns to restrain himself.

Regards Per-Ove


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## Elemental (Dec 20, 2021)

So, what should we call our gang? 

All jokes aside, I'm finding that more and more often, I end up joining a thread that ends up with the originator getting banned. I wonder if I am somehow contributing to the problem, or if this is just a norm that happens from time to time. I personally have no issues helping and supporting people and their questions. Hell, in some areas I'm the novice here and realize there is still years of learning ahead of me. I just lose patience once people lose respect for those who are volunteering their time and expertise, free of any commitment or obligation. I commend those of you who deal with this with high frequency but still come back to offer your advice.


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## MicheleM (Dec 20, 2021)

Elemental said:


> So, what should we call our gang?
> 
> All jokes aside, I'm finding that more and more often, I end up joining a thread that ends up with the originator getting banned. I wonder if I am somehow contributing to the problem, or if this is just a norm that happens from time to time. I personally have no issues helping and supporting people and their questions. Hell, in some areas I'm the novice here and realize there is still years of learning ahead of me. I just lose patience once people lose respect for those who are volunteering their time and expertise, free of any commitment or obligation. I commend those of you who deal with this with high frequency but still come back to offer your advice.


My opinion as a beginner in this forum: you did right to ban him. I noticed that In the last few years social networks and disinformation spreading are causing more and more people , some of them among scientific communities, to challenge established facts at any cost and with arrogance.


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## Jado (Dec 20, 2021)

Personally I love the radical ideas, it’s the reason I’m here. I don’t get enough intelligent conversation out here in the boonies, and work is very staple process and proof driven.

I was hoping that there would be some kind of breakthrough idea regarding the obvious safety issues dealing with PAA in high enough concentration to process mixed scrap. There wasn’t. There wasn’t even an offer of why we need to investigate further. If PAA could possibly have any benefit to even a small portion of our environmental issues (whether or not it overlapped with the focus of this forum) I would have been on board.


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## Ligandsarefun (Dec 20, 2021)

Geo said:


> Thank you Richard. I appreciate that. I just was reading what he said. It's been awhile but I had a few choice words for our friend. From the time I joined this forum, you were always the voice of calm reason. Someone like that makes my skin crawl. I just want to reach through the monitor and shake them until their teeth rattle. You win a gold star for your patience as I would have tossed him the first time he acted like that.
> I guess in all that wisdom he was showing off, he didn't seem to know about an IP ban. Oh well, sucks to be him.


With every test comes new insights. I do know how it works friend. I was seeing how yours or theirs is working. There are a few methods, and this one isnt very state of the art. You guys really enjoy feedback loops of opinions. That much is apparent.
I also have noticed that these are the creators of the refined refining book of calm hoke.

To that much i say impressive job all. It is in fact respectable work you have done. Good day.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 20, 2021)

Elemental said:


> Also, you received a two week ban from FrugalRefiner, his first ban ever, instead of accepting it, you immediately create an alternate account and defend your actions under the guise of naiveness.


Wow, I must have a terrible reputation for banning people. This is the second time in the last couple months I've been named as the person who banned a member when I didn't.  No problem, I was ready to.

I also welcome any discussion of new concepts. But I can't tolerate rudeness and insulting our members. We'll see if he changes his attitude after a break.

Dave


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## Ligandsarefun (Dec 20, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Wow, I must have a terrible reputation for banning people. This is the second time in the last couple months I've been named as the person who banned a member when I didn't.  No problem, I was ready to.
> 
> I also welcome any discussion of new concepts. But I can't tolerate rudeness and insulting our members. We'll see if he changes his attitude after a break.
> 
> Dave


I am getting confused on the perameters of what is rude or starts instigation. I get members saying you guys teach even less experienced people than I .... then I am getting bashed for general questions. Makes the site very confusing.
Props on the book though. It is an impressive piece, and good work.
Gooday.


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## Elemental (Dec 20, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Wow, I must have a terrible reputation for banning people. This is the second time in the last couple months I've been named as the person who banned a member when I didn't.  No problem, I was ready to.
> 
> I also welcome any discussion of new concepts. But I can't tolerate rudeness and insulting our members. We'll see if he changes his attitude after a break.
> 
> Dave


My apologies @FrugalRefiner. I misread on a different thread that you had banned CattMurry. I assure you that you do not have that sort of reputation. 

Elemental


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## Ligandsarefun (Dec 20, 2021)

Ligandsarefun said:


> I am getting confused on the perameters of what is rude or starts instigation. I get members saying you guys teach even less experienced people than I .... then I am getting bashed for general questions. Makes the site very confusing.
> Props on the book though. It is an impressive piece, and good work.
> Gooday.


Thanks. I was merely just curious, and then it turned into ww3. Dissapointing. I am very new to this, so I didnt realize they are touchy with the book, and work they have already produced.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 20, 2021)

Ligandsarefun said:


> I am getting confused on the perameters of what is rude or starts instigation. I get members saying you guys teach even less experienced people than I .... then I am getting bashed for general questions. Makes the site very confusing.
> Props on the book though. It is an impressive piece, and good work.
> Gooday.


See Gold Refining Forum Rules.

It's pretty simple. Don't insult people.

And now you're quoting yourself, and replying to yourself?

I'm banning your new account. Respect would be acknowledging that you've received a two week ban to think about whether you want to be a members here, not creating a new account to continue your posting marathon.

Dave


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 20, 2021)

Do you ever sleep?
Well my analogy of a Badger with a bone holds up.

The rudeness was, scolding and bashing experienced members who happen to be moderators, when the only thing they did was to try to educate you.

Please do your ban time and use your time well.
I believe you may end up as an asset to the forum, but there are a few chips that needs brushing off and some attitude moderation needed.

Welcome back when the time is ready.


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## orvi (Dec 20, 2021)

Jado said:


> Personally I love the radical ideas, it’s the reason I’m here. I don’t get enough intelligent conversation out here in the boonies, and work is very staple process and proof driven.
> 
> I was hoping that there would be some kind of breakthrough idea regarding the obvious safety issues dealing with PAA in high enough concentration to process mixed scrap. There wasn’t. There wasn’t even an offer of why we need to investigate further. If PAA could possibly have any benefit to even a small portion of our environmental issues (whether or not it overlapped with the focus of this forum) I would have been on board.


Me too. I make living as research chemist. Experimenting is very important. But times when folks were mixing random stuff and producing unknown things are gone. It´s 21. century, stuff around basic chemistry is well solved. Not to mention the acetic acid and its effect on metals, even with various oxidizers added. Folks in industry are using PAA daily for disinfection, corrosion rates with rotating metal cylinders from alloys of numerous metals were tested before us and documented. Stuff is hazardous, they even did not like to ship it because all dangers involved ( i know it first hand, because we wanted some for epoxidation reactions). My first intention was to stop somebody, who is looking inexperienced to me, from messing up with wrong chemicals.

There just wasn´t any benefits of doing this aside of making fun and doing some basic experiments with scrap. No real point in applying this into bigger refining scheme. 
Thing is, industry of recycling electronics already have the current best options how to do it, also enviromentally friendly in responsible corporations. We are more likely the ones who many times do it without scrubbing the fumes and producing nitrogen dioxide clouds. In modern responsible company, it is well resolved, and procedures like dissolving the bulk in acid are omitted from the recycling as much as possible due to exactly this.


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## Jado (Dec 20, 2021)

orvi said:


> Me too. I make living as research chemist. Experimenting is very important. But times when folks were mixing random stuff and producing unknown things are gone. It´s 21. century, stuff around basic chemistry is well solved. Not to mention the acetic acid and its effect on metals, even with various oxidizers added. Folks in industry are using PAA daily for disinfection, corrosion rates with rotating metal cylinders from alloys of numerous metals were tested before us and documented. Stuff is hazardous, they even did not like to ship it because all dangers involved ( i know it first hand, because we wanted some for epoxidation reactions). My first intention was to stop somebody, who is looking inexperienced to me, from messing up with wrong chemicals.
> 
> There just wasn´t any benefits of doing this aside of making fun and doing some basic experiments with scrap. No real point in applying this into bigger refining scheme.
> Thing is, industry of recycling electronics already have the current best options how to do it, also enviromentally friendly in responsible corporations. We are more likely the ones who many times do it without scrubbing the fumes and producing nitrogen dioxide clouds. In modern responsible company, it is well resolved, and procedures like dissolving the bulk in acid are omitted from the recycling as much as possible due to exactly this.


Unfortunately, big industry is still very irresponsible. My job entails identifying ways to reduce emissions and waste within industrial processes with positive CBA, or a small enough negative CBA that the lawyers agree with the recommendations. Most of the time, the meeting itself and agreeing to further review the recommendations is enough to appease the environmental agencies, and no action is actually taken. Neither Canada nor the US enforces enough to meet Kyoto, let alone G20.


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## galenrog (Dec 20, 2021)

Wow. Two week time out. Then you create a new account. And with the same IP address. Not a good idea. Remember, boys and girls, moderators here may know more about you than Santa Claus.

Time for more coffee.


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## orvi (Dec 21, 2021)

Jado said:


> Unfortunately, big industry is still very irresponsible. My job entails identifying ways to reduce emissions and waste within industrial processes with positive CBA, or a small enough negative CBA that the lawyers agree with the recommendations. Most of the time, the meeting itself and agreeing to further review the recommendations is enough to appease the environmental agencies, and no action is actually taken. Neither Canada nor the US enforces enough to meet Kyoto, let alone G20.


That is the thing about the companies and their drive for profits. Different topic, will be a long talk 
I meant, we already know how to do it properly and enviromentaly friendly. In terms of reducing waste, emissions, toxic gasses and chemicals used. Big corporations dealing with ewaste certainly know about these advances. But have their established pathaways, which could be improved, but no one is interested, because they fulfill the lowest standards for safety, hazards and pollution = for them end of the discussion: we will go as cheap as possible 

I agree here. On the paper, everything have green and shiny industry surrounded with thriving forests and fields, in reality, overall very little is done to actually improve something.


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## Alondro (Jan 26, 2022)

orvi said:


> I used combination of acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide a lot in organic syntheses (create weak peracetic acid _in situ_). Also, acetic acid is common solvent for reactions I do. But i will never advise to use this stuff for refining metals. Glacial acetic acid or concentrated (above 90%) acetic acid is lipophilic = very easily penetrates human flesh/skin, causing very bad chemical burns. Drop to your unprotected eye and you can end up blind.
> Gloves are penetrated with ease, as expected with every common polar organic solvent. False sense of protection is the worst thing that could happen to you. Applying the acid to your hand, unnoticed for long time is very bad. Aqueous acids have hard time to eat through the gloves, organic acids just pass through.
> 
> And as it was stated here many times, peracetic acid (as every organic peroxide molecule) is explosive. And relatively sensitive one, if concentration of peracetic acid climbs higher than 20%. Trace impurities, various chemicals or metals could trigger degradation, which could lead to big bad things
> ...


It's safe when mixing vinegar and 3% hydrogen peroxide. The concentration is too low for the potent reactions to occur. BUT, it's also so weak the reactions with metals occur at a snail's pace, even when heating. Adding some salt speeds up things a little bit, but it can't dissolve very much. It seems good enough for thin metal coatings, like gold fingers, because there's only a thin strip of base metals to dissolve. But it's useless for pins and thicker pieces of metal. You'd have to use gallons of it to dissolve a single pound of metal.

I'd say the best use is for fingers, since vinegar and 3%H2O2 are very cheap. It's extremely cost effective and relatively easy way to release the gold foils without risking dissolving them as well.


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## Alondro (Jan 26, 2022)

orvi said:


> That is the thing about the companies and their drive for profits. Different topic, will be a long talk
> I meant, we already know how to do it properly and enviromentaly friendly. In terms of reducing waste, emissions, toxic gasses and chemicals used. Big corporations dealing with ewaste certainly know about these advances. But have their established pathaways, which could be improved, but no one is interested, because they fulfill the lowest standards for safety, hazards and pollution = for them end of the discussion: we will go as cheap as possible
> 
> I agree here. On the paper, everything have green and shiny industry surrounded with thriving forests and fields, in reality, overall very little is done to actually improve something.


Interestingly, processing metals with the proper chemical pathway is one place a solar heater array would be exceedingly useful. If you have lots of acid chlorides, transform the metal salts to hydroxides with burned sea shells (calcium and magnesium carbonates, which become strongly basic oxides after burning), and then use the sun's focused heat to vaporize the water. Violla! Just a pile of dry salts and metal oxide powder remains, which can then be reprocessed for the metals contained within. Sulfates and nitrates can be directly evaporated and the powders burned to generate metal oxides, with recovery and reuse of the SO2 and NO2 a simple process many people have done themselves just with garage chemistry setups. 

Rather than spending stupid amounts of money of solar panels, just use mirrors to capture the Sun's heat directly and vaporize the biggest problem in metal processing: the huge amounts of water waste.


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## orvi (Jan 26, 2022)

Alondro said:


> Interestingly, processing metals with the proper chemical pathway is one place a solar heater array would be exceedingly useful. If you have lots of acid chlorides, transform the metal salts to hydroxides with burned sea shells (calcium and magnesium carbonates, which become strongly basic oxides after burning), and then use the sun's focused heat to vaporize the water. Violla! Just a pile of dry salts and metal oxide powder remains, which can then be reprocessed for the metals contained within. Sulfates and nitrates can be directly evaporated and the powders burned to generate metal oxides, with recovery and reuse of the SO2 and NO2 a simple process many people have done themselves just with garage chemistry setups.
> 
> Rather than spending stupid amounts of money of solar panels, just use mirrors to capture the Sun's heat directly and vaporize the biggest problem in metal processing: the huge amounts of water waste.



Big guys tend to not produce pools full of liquid metals waste in the first place. They have optimized processes to avoid the creation of waste stream. Pyrometallurgical processes are used more often instead of hydrometallurgical to process e-waste. Electrolytic refining instead of dissolving/precipitation protocols.

Your proposed process isn´t bad, but i´m afraid that it won´t be cost effective.


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## olalal10 (Jan 28, 2022)

Yeah, it can explode sooo...


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## Alondro (Jan 30, 2022)

orvi said:


> Big guys tend to not produce pools full of liquid metals waste in the first place. They have optimized processes to avoid the creation of waste stream. Pyrometallurgical processes are used more often instead of hydrometallurgical to process e-waste. Electrolytic refining instead of dissolving/precipitation protocols.
> 
> Your proposed process isn´t bad, but i´m afraid that it won´t be cost effective.


Ah, I'm still thinking of the old processing methods with the huge ponds of waste. I'm old. lol


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