# I have no clue what I am doing and need help



## Newbie23 (Jan 7, 2022)

We found on our land rocks with high concentrations of (2.5%)Rhodium, (4%)Platinum, Palladium (2%) some gold, silver and RU, ZN, and copper. The rest was lead. We had it tested on XRF which was off on the Rhodium and Platinum, but sent it to our University where they broke it down and tested it with a spectrometer. And that is the results we have. I have no clue what to do and just want to wash away the dirt and sand (which I dont even know how to do properly) and get rid of the Iron and Lead. From what I understand if I send that in to a refinery I will get the best bang for my buck. Could anyone tell me a simple way of washing away the dirt and sand, and what acids to use to eat away the Lead and Iron or with a magnet. I can pulverize it to whatever size but everything above that is beyond my pay grade and I do not want to bring in people to my land for reasons of security. Any help would be very much appreciated and paid for if the option of a video call would help. Thanks.


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## Jado (Jan 7, 2022)

Im not a geologist, but the lack of Tin makes me sceptical that any of the concentrations are worthwhile. Do you know what spectroscopy equipment was used? Or at least what method?


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## nickvc (Jan 8, 2022)

Before you spend any money chasing these values invest in proper assays which while expensive may well save you a fortune and a lot of wasted time, be sure to use representative samples for your assays.


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## Iridium&gt;Gold (Jan 8, 2022)

Thanks Nick


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## orvi (Jan 8, 2022)

Newbie23 said:


> We found on our land rocks with high concentrations of (2.5%)Rhodium, (4%)Platinum, Palladium (2%) some gold, silver and RU, ZN, and copper. The rest was lead. We had it tested on XRF which was off on the Rhodium and Platinum, but sent it to our University where they broke it down and tested it with a spectrometer. And that is the results we have. I have no clue what to do and just want to wash away the dirt and sand (which I dont even know how to do properly) and get rid of the Iron and Lead. From what I understand if I send that in to a refinery I will get the best bang for my buck. Could anyone tell me a simple way of washing away the dirt and sand, and what acids to use to eat away the Lead and Iron or with a magnet. I can pulverize it to whatever size but everything above that is beyond my pay grade and I do not want to bring in people to my land for reasons of security. Any help would be very much appreciated and paid for if the option of a video call would help. Thanks.


Firstly, before popping fireworks and buying the land and mining permitts make sure you precisely and surely know it contain precious metals. Because if the concentration of PGMs is 8,5 % as you say... you will be very, very rich soon  big guys who mine gold often go to just 1 ppm concentrations to leach it from the ore, if it is excavated from open pit. Your result is 85 000 ppm of PGMs, and their value is more than gold. If it is like you say, one tonne of this material will produce you more than 9 mil. dollars. Sounds too great. If you say the rest was lead, what ore look like ? Is it classical galena sample, very heavy and shiny, greyish metallic colour ? 
Some photos will be very helpful in further identification. 
Because if light elements (often abbreviated as LE) aren´t shown on your reading, I won´t trust a single digit of your reading then.

Thing with XRF is, it must be well calibrated to make precise measurment. You need to load mode, that is specifically callibrated to rock ore samples - often called "Geochem". If the instrument does not have this mode setting, at least pickup the mode which is calibrated for all of the metals above and also can read %tage of light elements (usually below aluminium or magnesium). To make better estimate. 
Not so long ago there was a nice post about practically the same thing. Piece of supposedly scrap aluminum read PGMs on XRF in high quantities. Because the machine is not callibrated or wrong mode was selected.
If the proper mode is not selected, XRF is practically useless. *You confuse the machine with sample, machine confuse you with the results  *

Get the proper assay done. I will just advise you to smelt some bit and cupell, but potential of ruthenium content is a stop sign  As we do not know in which form the ruthenium is present in ore, i won´t recommend smelting it.


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## Iridium&gt;Gold (Jan 8, 2022)

orvi said:


> Firstly, before popping fireworks and buying the land and mining permitts make sure you precisely and surely know it contain precious metals. Because if the concentration of PGMs is 8,5 % as you say... you will be very, very rich soon  big guys who mine gold often go to just 1 ppm concentrations to leach it from the ore, if it is excavated from open pit. Your result is 85 000 ppm of PGMs, and their value is more than gold. If it is like you say, one tonne of this material will produce you more than 9 mil. dollars. Sounds too great. If you say the rest was lead, what ore look like ? Is it classical galena sample, very heavy and shiny, greyish metallic colour ?
> Some photos will be very helpful in further identification.
> Because if light elements (often abbreviated as LE) aren´t shown on your reading, I won´t trust a single digit of your reading then.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I know the numbers are way off. But I still think there is material there. Here is a picture of a button I heated up directly with a oxy/acetylene torch for 1 minute.


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## nickvc (Jan 9, 2022)

Be very cautious melting or using chemicals on ore as you have no idea what is in the mix , it could be hazardous or even worse lethal ..


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## orvi (Jan 9, 2022)

Iridium>Gold said:


> Thanks for the reply. I know the numbers are way off. But I still think there is material there. Here is a picture of a button I heated up directly with a oxy/acetylene torch for 1 minute. View attachment 47721


That is good to know, but keep advice from nickvc and DO NOT SMELT IT until you precisely know it does not contain hazardous elements such as ruthenium, mercury or thallium. With oxy/acetylene all of this s**t vaporize and breathing it could easily kill you.

I would suggest making a representative sample from the place you found the stuff and get it assayed properly to know what is in there.

But if you have the button already and proceeded with that risky operation... You can try to remove it and slightly smack it with hammer on iron plate - if it is metal or only melted sulfides. You can also put the button in nitric/AR and try to dissolve it. You said it contain good portion of lead, so firstly nitric acid leach, then you can directly add HCl - solution will be cloudy from evolved PbCl2, but one filtering will do the thing.
Then test it with stannous chloride - for platinum, palladium and rhodium. You can find manuals here on the forum how to do this properly, accompanied with photos of samples.
If the test come up positive, then it is time to pop the champagne


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## orvi (Jan 9, 2022)

Iridium>Gold said:


> Thanks for the reply. I know the numbers are way off. But I still think there is material there. Here is a picture of a button I heated up directly with a oxy/acetylene torch for 1 minute. View attachment 47721


From my experience, some XRF guns, not properly/regularly calibrated, can mistake between Rh-Cu-Pd-Pb. If you get combination of these elements in your sample, it can sometimes lead to very skewed analysis. Does not mean that elements are not present, but ratios of them are flying from one end to the other. 
In our case, we know for sure that no Pb is present in our sample. Tested chemically and also XRF of pregnant solution shown no Pb. After drop of precious metals to the powder form with zinc, no matter what, XRF shown some few % of "Pb"  Readings for Pt were still.
Second case was solution containing copper and rhodium, alongside with platinum. Depending on concentration of Cu and Rh, ratios of these elements were flying greatly. Platinum being consistent.
Machine will be callibrated in few months horizon hopefully, so maybe this behaviour will stop.


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## jobinyt (Jan 10, 2022)

The above advice is good. You need a proper lab analysis. BUT, an elemental analysis isn't the way to start. You need to identify the mineral type: sulfide, carbonate, oxide, etc. and the actual mineral. concentrating then refining values from each type is radically different, with very different capital and operating costs. You need to know a bit about mineral ownership and mining regulations for the area. Is your sample in situ or float? Is free milling or going to require chemical or smelting to recover? How big is the deposit?

You certainly do not have what the xrf reported. Your local educational institue geology department will likely be of no help. Ask a local prospecting, or exploration company, or mining school and your state geologic agency,, to look at your sample - take 20 pounds and leave them with 10 if they have any interest. 

Buy all 3 of the common handbooks on rock and mineral identification and read them. Mindat will give you a good idea of mineral deposits found in your area.

Read 'Geology for Dummies', Chris Ralph's book, and any other material that looks interesting to you.

Do all this for the fun of it - for the experience - because you're curious - and measure success in those terms. The chance your sample will lead to big dollars is like a lottery ticket - worth very little and likely to become worthless - you play for the fun.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jan 10, 2022)

jobinyt said:


> Buy all 3 of the common handbooks on rock and mineral identification and read them. Mindat will give you a good idea of mineral deposits found in your area.


Can you tell us what those 3 books are, please?

Dave


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## jobinyt (Jan 10, 2022)

*Dang: I had no idea so many books are now available until I just now did a Google search. I bought mine some time ago, am traveling and don't have mine handy too properly describe each one. I see some of mine have newer editions - that's sometimes good sometimes not. It may seem there is a great overlap in these books - many of the same minerals are covered but there are significant differences in organization, tests, and misc data . Also, each is unique in some aspect such as meteorites and gem coverage, so no one book is sufficient, and even these 3 may leave you wanting more. I'm going to haunt some book stores and see what I can add to my traveling reference library. *
1)Simon & Schuster's Guide to Rocks and Minerals..​
2) Frederick H. Pough 
A Field Guide to Rocks and Minerals (Peterson Field Guides)​3
National Geographic Pocket Guide to Rocks and Minerals of North America (Pocket Guides)​Also, if you get serious, "
Duke’s
Short Course in Prospecting
AND
Mineral Identification - Maulsby" plus the revisions found on this forum, are great aids. Even if you don't go full in, having the information handy, might someday be handy. Also, all this stuff is qualitative, but if you think about tests that yield a precipitent, just add a precision scale, be thoughtful and careful in your work, and you can get quantitative results to you decide if certified lab testing is warranted.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jan 10, 2022)

Thanks Jobinyt. I'll have to check through my old rockhound books to see if I have any of those.

Dave


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## galenrog (Jan 10, 2022)

I have the Peterson Field Guide. Very good for novices. That, and two or three other guides of choice should help the beginner. Especially when coupled with the field tests found at the top of the Prospecting section. Knowing how to test, without the wonderful, but often misused XRF, can save one a lot of money and trouble.

Time for more coffee.


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## Newbie23 (Jan 10, 2022)

I honestly appreciate all the advice, and I am will aware that the results are no where near this or the people doing the testing would of offered me money. I should not of complicated my question with data that I knew was scewed, but if someone could just answer my question about seperating dirt and sand from what ever garbage I have i would appreciate it. Thanks alot guys.


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 10, 2022)

We have told you before.
Until we know what is in there, it is next to impossible to say.

But if it is in metallic form, gravity separation is usually best.
Crush it to a fine flour, add it to a pan and pan it.
If you find heavy particles in the bottom, separate them. Have those checked.

If there is anything of value, you can scale up to shaker table or similar devices.

Added:
If it is a mix of metallics and mineral depositions, the losses will be high with mechanical means.


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## jobinyt (Jan 11, 2022)

Hmmm - just get what is commonly called a gold pan (get a small pan to sample your material - get a large pan if you want to spend a year panning a ton of material) and pan some of the material. Do it in a tub and you can save the washed out material for re-use later. How-to-pan videos are easy to find on youtube. If you want to pan a large amount of material - or achieve high recovery rates - get a set of sieves. The fine/heavy material you get from panning will be a reasonably clean sample of the heavy/metallics in your starting material. Run some bead and flame tests (look that up too) to get some idea of elements your heavies may contain.


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## Tony S (Mar 26, 2022)

Newbie23 said:


> We found on our land rocks with high concentrations of (2.5%)Rhodium, (4%)Platinum, Palladium (2%) some gold, silver and RU, ZN, and copper. The rest was lead. We had it tested on XRF which was off on the Rhodium and Platinum, but sent it to our University where they broke it down and tested it with a spectrometer. And that is the results we have. I have no clue what to do and just want to wash away the dirt and sand (which I dont even know how to do properly) and get rid of the Iron and Lead. From what I understand if I send that in to a refinery I will get the best bang for my buck. Could anyone tell me a simple way of washing away the dirt and sand, and what acids to use to eat away the Lead and Iron or with a magnet. I can pulverize it to whatever size but everything above that is beyond my pay grade and I do not want to bring in people to my land for reasons of security. Any help would be very much appreciated and paid for if the option of a video call would help. ThanksI
> 
> 
> Newbie23 said:
> ...


The only ways I see are either having a lab doing an ICP-MS analysis (expensive) or doing the selective recovery by refining. Now the latter seems not straightforward unless you know all that is in your ore. I face a similar problem with ore samples from an African mine. So if you do get on with the refining path I would love to hear how you got there! Thank you


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## 4metals (Mar 26, 2022)

You have received a lot of good advice here. The first "trap" newbies fall into is believing an XRF as if it is the spoken word. Many have thought themselves rich only to waste a lot of cash going down the road believing their XRF. In my opinion, XRF is a fast convenient tool that has been misused by improper application and often by people looking to get over on the owner of the material who are selling. What Orvi said above is good advice, re-read it and understand it. 
If this was my find, I would sample a few locations and crush the rock to a powder and use either a table or simply a pan to see if the metallic fractions can be separated. If they can be separated from the rock fractions to a mostly metallic powder, an XRF can be used to determine if a proper analysis is warranted. 
With a proper positive analysis in hand, only then should you start the calculus of figuring the best way to determine both the quantity on your land (and surrounding lands) and finally the most cost effective way to mine this material.


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## 4metals (Mar 26, 2022)

orvi said:


> Not so long ago there was a nice post about practically the same thing. Piece of supposedly scrap aluminum read PGMs on XRF in high quantities. Because the machine is not callibrated or wrong mode was selected.


Does anyone know where this thread is? I cannot find it.


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## FrugalRefiner (Mar 26, 2022)

I believe this is the one he was talking about: What is this?

Dave


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## orvi (Mar 26, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I believe this is the one he was talking about: What is this?
> 
> Dave


Yes, that is the one.
Thanks


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## goldshark (Mar 27, 2022)

Due to the grainy photo, what I see is either a piece of unidentified rock, or a piece of ceramic, that you heated with an oxygen acetylene, and some flux. Another book that tells you what you may have, is Dana's textbook of mineralogy. Without a Phd., this may be a little over your head.


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## Yggdrasil (Mar 27, 2022)

goldshark said:


> Due to the grainy photo, what I see is either a piece of unidentified rock, or a piece of ceramic, that you heated with an oxygen acetylene, and some flux. Another book that tells you what you may have, is Dana's textbook of mineralogy. Without a Phd., this may be a little over your head.


Maybe look at the picture first?
It is a long piece of square white metal resting on top of a ceramic soldering block or something like that.
Aluminium fits perfectly, but with no more info I can not tell.


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## goldshark (Mar 28, 2022)

The picture Iridium gt posted is a round button with slag on either rock, or clay. I see nothing resembling an Aluminum bar in it. Dunno, maybe we are scrutinizing 2 different photos?


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## Yggdrasil (Mar 28, 2022)

goldshark said:


> The picture Iridium gt posted is a round button with slag on either rock, or clay. I see nothing resembling an Aluminum bar in it. Dunno, maybe we are scrutinizing 2 different photos?


It's in the link on top of this page. A XRF readout and a long white squarish metal rod.
just to redo it, here:








What is this?


Hi. This is my first time posting on this forum. Recently I was gifted a bar that was porported to be palladium metal. I did a fire test and it showed no change of color so I brought it to a pawn shop as they have one of those x-ray spectrograph machine. Well it wasn't platinum exactly. I will...




goldrefiningforum.com





And it was Scottatkinson not IridiumGT.


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## goldshark (Mar 29, 2022)

Sorry, I was responding to the original picture in the post by Iridium gt.


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## Yggdrasil (Mar 29, 2022)

goldshark said:


> Sorry, I was responding to the original picture in the post by Iridium gt.


Yes, but not what was linked to in the latest posts.


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## Arivaca (Apr 17, 2022)

Thank you for the warning not to melt it. I have a similar problem. I was thinking of trying to melt some of my mixture untill I saw your reply.


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