# Will it suck enought ?



## Dlog Renim (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi all sorry for the bad word.. oups

So yeah im building my self a scrubber wich you might had see in a older post from me..

I just received my pump.. and just wanna make sure it will suck enough.. and need some advise on what size of tubing i should use and how long the tube can be.. and how many L can i put in my bottle

So i dont know much on that blue stuff except its PVC.. i plugged a garden hose on it.. it seem to suck well.. 

Is there a way to calculate the debit or some sort of precious info... like i saw on youtube people who suck a 50L Tub filled with water in 2min .. sor i guess we can say it have a debit of 25L a min ... 

I am guessing to on the size of my tubing.. if i go to low i will loose suction.. but if i go to big it wont suck enough ...

A problem i tink i will have to .. is if i try to suck air from a 5gallon US that is plug to my hood.. will it be strong enough to suck air into the caustic in that 5 gallon.. a guessing from my part lol smart am i lol  if i try to suck from 1L it should be easier than from 20L ???

So now that i have try to figure out the trouble i might have building my scrubber.. i would like to get the much help you can share with me.. 

i know i could do 1000x test but not rich enough to buy thing that wont work to me

tank you for precious help


----------



## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 18, 2012)

Hello,

You should read this thread...

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9115&hilit=eductor

It seems you are attempting to make the same system that 4metals has posted about in this thread.

Here are some tables with required pump flows for the eductors on this page. 4metals references this page specifically.

The things you need to consider are these. How much suction do you need to create? How many CFM. I am pulling right around 11 on my first set up, and my second I have not completed yet. They use different eductors so I'm curious to see what suction the new one will produce at the T. But nobody here will be able to tell you if what you have is what you need unless you post some information first.

How many CFM do you need at the T? Are you working with an enclosed system, or are you putting the suction to a fume hood? What is your application in other words?

To figure your suction you need to figure pump pressure, pipe size of the inlet pipe opposed to the pull/outlet and the velocity of the liquid traveling through your eductor. Easiest way to figure out what you need is to call the people whom you purchased your eductor from, and ask them. They should have all the required tables to figure out answers to your questions fairly quickly.

That's exactly what I did for my second scrubber, I called and spoke with the engineer who actually designed the eductor, and was able to obtain the information I needed.

What is the input/output diameters of your eductor? Input will be the small diameter, and output the large.

Scott


----------



## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 18, 2012)

Looking at your picture again, I am wondering just what kind of eductor you have there.

Remember when you make a fume hood, you don't want any of the gas you suck into your scrubber to escape when the pressure is released. It looks to me that your particular eductor has a bottom fitting that locks into place when it's pressurized, but it also looks like it has a stopper on the outlet side as well so that when pressure is released, it won't migrate upwards. It also looks like there is some sort of axle that might be in guide slots so that the fitting stays straight when it slides into it's locked position.

I wouldn't use an eductor that had exposed metal, eventually it will corrode and degrade then fail. Your eductor should be fused into one piece either by plastic welding, or epoxies/plastic glues/acids, etc. If you are going to attempt to modify the eductor you have so that it's sealed and has no parts that would move, I would suggest reading and learning how to do it before attempting it. Plastic Welding isn't exceedingly hard, but it does take a bit of practice to make nice welds.

Scott


----------



## Geo (Jun 18, 2012)

thats made to suck the water from a water bed.


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 18, 2012)

tank you for fast answer..

yes exactly.. its to empty a water bed.. taught it could work.. 5$ ill give a try 

i will go read that thread...

I just send a message to the seller (ebay) to see if i can get further info...

What i wanna do will look like this...

i know its only a quick sketch with the hand reaching settup LOLOLOL but you get the idea ... my PRINCIPLA probleme ( maby not.. maby it will suck enough .... maby not lol ) in the worst situation i guess i will have to lower the container and by this the amount of caustic to..


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 18, 2012)

the bottom part can be remove ... so no metal part.. i dont wanna keep the bottom part...

here picture ...


----------



## qst42know (Jun 18, 2012)

Water bed pumps push water better than they suck air. The bottom part is vital to their function. 

I can't say if it will work or not the way you are applying it but leave the bottom part in place, the turbulance it creates at the exit is vital to the function.

You could test it to see if it will draw bubbles in a scrubber bottle as in your drawing, but without a reaction going on.


----------



## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 18, 2012)

Here is the site that sells the eductor I recently purchased.

The Engineer's name is Melvin, all you have to do is call and ask, he can give you the information you require on his own eductors, so I wouldn't bother calling him unless you are interested in purchasing his eductors, he wouldn't be able to answer your question in relation to other eductors.

http://www.millerplastics.com/eductors.html

You might be able to make your waterbed eductor work, but I wouldn't really know unless I did it myself. All the loose fittings would have to be sealed and plastic welded together so that you can be sure you have no leaks. 

I don't know enough about your design to know if the eductor would be coming into contact with slightly acidic solution or if it will all be neutralized before it enters the eductor. I have no experience with the type of scrubber you are proposing to make, so I can't really comment on it one way or another. What I will say however is that if I were you, and I was intent on using the eductor you have pictured, I would make sure that I had it all nicely sealed/plastic welded together into one piece, and I would remove any material such as gaskets and the like that might come into contact with anything that might be slightly acidic.

I also posted a video on the same thread I refereed you to, on how to make an eductor. They will work, not nearly as efficiently as one that has been specifically designed for specific flows, but it will work if you adjust it properly for your application.

Scott


----------



## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 18, 2012)

qst42know said:


> Water bed pumps push water better than they suck air. The bottom part is vital to their function.
> 
> I can't say if it will work or not the way you are applying it but leave the bottom part in place, the turbulance it creates at the exit is vital to the function.
> 
> You could test it to see if it will draw bubbles in a scrubber bottle as in your drawing, but without a reaction going on.



I didn't know that about the bottom piece. I wonder if you plastic welded the entire thing together so that it had no leaks that could suck air, if taking the bottom part off would work them. The basic design looks about like what an eductor I might make would look like. But that would be the type that would suck air at the T, not water.

Interesting post though, I hope 4Metals sees it and comments on it.

Scott


----------



## qst42know (Jun 18, 2012)

The orifice is simply a round hole. Water just shoots straight through without the bottom piece.

The bottom cap redirects the flow enough to allow it to burp air.


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 18, 2012)

ok..

euh..

i did plug this ona garden hose ... and leave the bottom part.. it squirt like hell .. splash.. not a nice colon ...

i loose the screw and it make it free to move about a quarter inch .. if it goes closer to the entrance... it kinda disturb the procedure and i have a back wash in the air entrance... but the flow come back really quick ..

i dint try it with out the bottom.. tomorow i will 

so far with it on it .. i can put my hand on the air entrance and it stuck right there no way to make it fall unless i pull on it... so it seem to suck a lot LOLOL


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 19, 2012)

info from my caliper.. with some guessing ...

and bad and good news about the bottom part... IT HAVE TO be there.. if i take it out.. it stop to suck.. but i still figure out to make it stay in play without the metal screw.. and with plastic screw 

i try to empty a 5gallon with a 5foot long garden hose.. it took 1min 28sec ... im not a pro into this.. but it seem to suck well 

what should i use to glue all the part.. as i have pvc cpvc and the blue venturi i guess it mabe of plastic ??? i found some 3 way glue for plumbing work... or should i go with some sort of epoxy ?


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 19, 2012)

hummm so i went Rona to check out fitting if i could make something to work with a PVC tube ....

i dont know why but with this set up.. i empty the 5Gallon in even faster... 57sec !!! interesting.. no glue yet... and no water was leaking ...

getting closer


----------



## Geo (Jun 19, 2012)

normal pvc cement will weld the blue to the white plastic.


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 19, 2012)

ok cool.. should i paper sand surface that will be glue ???

also what could be the best water pressure i could get from a house ? speed way ? the main ? washing machine ? garden hose ?

im in search of free water pressure


----------



## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 19, 2012)

Dlog Renim said:


> ok cool.. should i paper sand surface that will be glue ???
> 
> also what could be the best water pressure i could get from a house ? speed way ? the main ? washing machine ? garden hose ?
> 
> im in search of free water pressure



It sounds like the system you are proposing uses a lot of water also... I would look for a free water source. :mrgreen: 

Scott


----------



## Geo (Jun 19, 2012)

no need to sand. you can use pvc primer (the purple primer) and then glue. you can get a pressure gauge at Lowes at the in-ground sprinkler supplies in the plumbing department that screws to water hose bib. also, you can use a garden hose and turn the spigot full on and time how long it takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket. the hose bib is 3/8" diameter. divide the time by 5, this will give you GPM (gallons per minute) at 3/8". PSI and GPM are two different measurements you can use to calculate whether you need to hook directly into the the water line out of the meter or not. keep in mind that most home water service is 3/4" but you can have a 1" installed if you need to.


----------



## Geo (Jun 19, 2012)

depending on where you live (here, you can get a 100' 8" well drilled for $1,000) you can get a well drilled and use a jet jump if the water level isnt much more than 20-30 feet.


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 19, 2012)

ok ty for that calcul.. i will study it when i translate it corectly lol now its late..

also water is free here


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 20, 2012)

Here is my final Draw 







today i went Rona again and just done glue those part.. (the hose isnt the one i will use.. it is only to make some try


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 20, 2012)

what you think about a little blower ??? 3 inch one.. i could put a valve to manage the air flow ...

would it be at the good place or should i move it ?


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 21, 2012)

So.. here is the scrubber..

Just went down to give a try !
Its working well.. i cant tell the psi intake yet .. i have no gauge.. but it suck well 
It seem to be really strong flow.. i putted a cigarette a the end.. 3 seconds and no more !!!
now have to build the hood... some one have good advice ?

i make it out of pvc was easier to find than a container with the good threading.. inside the 3 inch i putted a smaller tube and it make the bottom U shape till the other side at about 1 foot... i drilled small hole in the smaller pipe.. i went to the scrap yard and took some nice car back glass.. BANG into little piece.. and putted it the 3 inch tube... for about half way both side..


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 22, 2012)

tire to play with water today..

so done my cell 

computer power supply will be use.. 
Green with Black to bypass the power supply (he tink hes connect to a computer)
Black and Red will supply 5V up to about 15amp
Black and Yellow will supply 12v up to about 30amp
Red and Yellow will supply 3v up to about 5amp

i took a pyrex kit that the smaller one could fit into the bigger.. i added a foam into the big one (about half a inch tick) and cut into it the base pattern from the smaller that will sit into it.. so now it stuck and cant move and also i have cover for bot and it seal tight so i can transport it easy with liquid into it...

now just need to finish that so it look clean  probably will change the alligator clip for bigger on... ill try to mange to put a ON OFF switch or a 3 stations switch that would make OFF- 5V - 12V... 

Also i need to find a copper mesh to make a basket of it .. 

comment ? idea ? feel free


----------



## Dlog Renim (Jun 23, 2012)

humm the cell work well so far.. so yeah just done it !


----------



## NobleMetalWorks (Jun 23, 2012)

You should ask 4Metals to look at your design, or maybe one of the engineers on this forum. They might be missing this post all together because of the threads title.

it seems to me that if you are forcing air down a bypass to pick up air from your fume hood, then forcing it into a water tank that you would have to be drawing at least as many CFM at the T of your eductor to insure you didn't over pressurize your system. The problem is that you are forcing air into one end of your system, and sucking at the other end. If you try to ram too much air into the first part of your system then your pre-tank will become pressurized and will no longer accept the airflow which would cause a back feed of fumes back into your enclosure.

Anything that didn't get neutralized in the tank will go out with the water, and there is no guarantee that one pass through one tank will neutralize the fumes correctly, also what type of media are you planning to do the neutralization?

The idea is to keep the fumes in contact with the water, for a long enough period of time so that the water can absorb the acid fumes. At some point you either need to have the fumes in contact with the water for a longer period of time, or you need to circulate them so that they stay in contact with water for a longer period of time. To me, and this is only my opinion because I am not engineer, but it seems like the gas you are forcing into the first tank will quickly build up pressure and bleed back into your fume hood or leak out somewhere else. What little gas comes into contact with your water will eventually be sucked if you have a strong enough eductor, but still will not be in contact with water long enough to ensure they gas is absorbed by the water, but then you are expelling the water, and I feel that since the gas was not fully absorbed into the water in the first tank, even if it has the media to neutralize the acid in the water, it is not effective because as soon as the gas makes it's way to the surface of the water, it is already making it's way to the eductor to be sent down the drain.

Also, your system is dependent upon a constant water supply.

It just seems to me, and i could be wrong, that you would be sending acidic water down the drain.

I hope someone corrects me if I am wrong about this, to me it seems very likely, and I think I'm correct in this assumption, but I also want to make sure that what I believe is true will not lead anyone in the wrong direction.


----------



## Geo (Jun 23, 2012)

if you are drawing straight from the reaction chamber, it should work ok, but if you expect to get an AOE (area of effect) of any more than that, it may come up short.


----------

