# ripped off



## seaslush (Oct 24, 2019)

Can I get some information about the person or persons that wrote up the E Refinerss Gold Mining Guide.

I want to use it in a court case and I need proof that it was written by a professional or experienced person in the E scrap field.

You can format the info the same as a resume or cv

I am a little guy getting screwed by the big guys.

Thank you

Carl


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## jimdoc (Oct 24, 2019)

I don't think he (Victorz) has been on the forum since 2012.

If you post your problem, maybe you will get some advice.


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## Johnny5 (Oct 24, 2019)

I am extremely interested in hearing the details of this alleged scam. Maybe there is something that you are not seeing, that someone else may be able to point out to you. Please regale us with the your story.
Johnny


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## seaslush (Oct 25, 2019)

I will give the whole experience in detail, This will help the others form getting into the same situation. 

I have learned not to reply while enjoying a beverage or two - so I will continue the experience when sober..

sunday or monday I will continue 

thanks for you patience.


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## denim (Oct 25, 2019)

"I have learned not to reply while enjoying a beverage or two - so I will continue the experience when sober.."

Really good idea. Many have been foolish to post whilst imbibing and rued their decision later. I used to drink, many times too heavily, and the confidence that alcohol gave me astounds me to this day.

edited for punctuation


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## ericrm (Oct 26, 2019)

lol , thats bring back memory. it sound like you find the infamus list of cpu with average gold content. then bought a bunch on ebay and then not get the average expected... it that it?


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## Johnny5 (Oct 26, 2019)

ericrm said:


> lol , thats bring back memory. it sound like you find the infamus list of cpu with average gold content. then bought a bunch on ebay and then not get the average expected... it that it?



That's what I thought too.


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## seaslush (Oct 27, 2019)

Here is the whole story.
13 years working at a scrap yard and bringing home e waste.

Took it all to GRC in Brampton Ontario where they weighed and took pictures of all 6 commodities, then mixed it all up. Ended up with 167 lbs of high grade e waste (high grade because of old industrial and commercial electronics as well as old computers). 

4 weeks later they gave me a receipt and a check for 2.7 ounces of gold. On the receipt the total weight processed was 181 lbs of material.

I asked for my material back and they did send me the same material back (I paid shipping) striped of gold, but only 151 lbs. Here is the breakdown of the returned material

53 lbs of pins and connectors
15 lbs of trimmed fingers
44 lbs of printed circuit boards
32 lbs of cpu 20 lbs high grade 12 lbs low grade
7 lbs of misalliances 
This includes 5 lbs of gold plate contact points

Before I sent my material out, I did my own stripping of fingers using AP and refined it with vinegar and bleach and I got 1 ounce of gold with only 10 lbs fingers.(checked purity with the companies spectrometer 98%) 
This tells me that there is more then 2.7 ounces in 167 lbs.

When I use the Gold Mining Guide I should have lot more than 2.7 ounces.

And they advertise that they will do 3 assays - they didn’t do it because this way they destroyed the evidence. Now I have to prove that there was more then 2.7 ounces to the court. The Gold Mining Guide would work as evidence if the author was qualified in the gold field. Or if I can get any person that is qualified in the gold reclaiming business to state their qualifications on paper and that there is more then 2.7 ounces in 167 lbs of e scrap - NOT HOW MUCH but that there is more then 2.7 ounces.

I will have to come up with an average ( like an assay ) using the guide later.


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## butcher (Oct 27, 2019)

So some guy writes a guide with pretty pictures of unverifiable information or unconfirmed facts, and the author would not even sign his name on the document and you wish to take, His word or paper to court, or trade gold based on something you found on the internet, written by you do not know who???

I cannot say anything about the refiner, he could be an honest man or a good liar.

It has been my experience that people generally always see more gold than they are actually holding, and if they see or believe there is more than there is, it could be impossible to convince them or make them see any different. 

In my opinion, the document is worth the paper, and that is about it.

I can see how arguing with a judge that you dissolved the same kind of hazardous electronic trash yourself from the information you got from some youtube video on beginners guide to a gold recipe using normal safe kitchen vinegar and your wife's safe brand of lemon-scented laundry bleach and how you were successful in recovering and refining more pure gold than a professional refinery was able to???


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## Palladium (Oct 27, 2019)

As a great man use to once say: "The refiner is the last liar."


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## Johnny5 (Oct 27, 2019)

Palladium said:


> As a great man use to once say: "The refiner is the last liar."


That was one of my favorite sayings from him. Years ago we had been talking one night on the phone, about a person from the forum that had scammed my wife and I out of a lot of money and he said "The only thing that separates an honest man from a dishonest man, is time." I told him that as an honest man I didn't necessarily believe that. What he said next was nothing short of profound. He said "Take an honest man and put him in the right opportunity for long enough time, and he'll make a dishonest decision. If he hasn't made a dishonest decision his whole life......then it either wasn't the right opportunity, or it hasn't been long enough" 



seaslush said:


> Here is the whole story.
> When I use the Gold Mining Guide I should have lot more than 2.7 ounces.
> I will have to come up with an average ( like an assay ) using the guide later.


There are multiple things that sound wrong with that story. At this early stage, and not having more information about what transpired, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving any advice, or attaching my name to any recommendations. 
But I can say with a clear conscience, there is quite a bit that sounds wrong with the story.

I do however want to say two things.
#1: Did they only payout on the gold?
#2: You may want to be very careful where you tread at this point, because you could find yourself on the wrong end of an investigation and lawsuit from the government, should they find any wrongdoing on your part during the processing of that material. And with all of the mass hysteria about global warming these days, it could very well happen. Not to mention you could inadvertently bring negative attention to the forum and members. Not saying any of those things would happen, but it's something you have to know is a possibility.


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## anachronism (Oct 28, 2019)

There really isn't enough information from your descriptions for any of us to make a reasoned judgment call as to the possible yield. 

The type of products you have listed with the possible exception of the trimmed fingers have an enormous range in yields and proper pictures would help a great deal.

I've run some calculations based upon different first hand experiences using the types and grades that comply with your descriptions and in the best case scenario the payout was incredibly low, however in the worst case scenario it's very generous. 

Jon


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## g_axelsson (Oct 28, 2019)

You did get the material back? So they only stripped visible gold?
In that case you got a whole lot of your gold back, it's just hidden inside your components.

Looking at their homepage it looks like GRC only works with carat gold so they were probably not the best to deal with electronic scrap.

Göran


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## goldenchild (Oct 28, 2019)

I agree with J5 in that something doesn't sound quite right about all of this. The thing that stood out to me most was why at the very least didn't seaslush process the 15 lbs of gold fingers himself? He claimed he previously processed 10 pounds and got an ounce (sounds like a very high yield btw). Why not process an additional 15 pounds yourself and have that gold in hand immediately? And I'll be straight saying this. Following that guide is a colossal mistake. There will be no way to prove the gold quantity held in your scrap unless you have manufacturers' specs for each and every gold bearing component in your scrap.


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## snoman701 (Oct 28, 2019)

A couple questions..

How much did you pay for all this material?

How much did they charge to refine it for you?

How much do you think you should have gotten, and how did you separate the material going in to the refinery? 

How much do you think you should be paying for an expert witness testimony? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ericrm (Oct 28, 2019)

seaslush said:


> Here is the whole story.
> 13 years working at a scrap yard and bringing home e waste.



did you just pick it up on the iron pile? from old electronics and stuff because at the scrap yard i was going this is what guys did... so getting 5500$ for free dosent sound like a big loss to me...


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## seaslush (Oct 28, 2019)

butcher 
so this document will be a dead end in court…do you know of any other documents that might help with this situation. 

Not keeping his word on assays (fraud) and not being able to balance the weights indicates poor liar to me.

When I can get one ounce from ten lbs and they can only get 2.7 from 167 lbs - something is wrong somewhere. Maybe they put the decibel point in the wrong place. When he weighed the relay contacts he also did a quick check on one contact and got a 6% reading then mixed all the commodities together. 

You have to remember that a lot of the scrap was from industrial machinery built in the sixties.
There would be no arguing with the judge just an education on do it yourself refining.


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## seaslush (Oct 28, 2019)

Johnny5 
only the gold 
The only thing I have to watch is the disposal of hydrochloric acid. Bleach Peroxide and Vinegar are not hazardous waste. This forum covers this.


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## seaslush (Oct 28, 2019)

anachronism
I do need a person that recycles e scrap. He should be able to compare his yields of material to my materials. Averages, just the same as an assay.


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## seaslush (Oct 28, 2019)

g_axelsson 

Yes I got the material back and a lot of the thicker plated components still have some gold on them. They also missed opening the ceramic cpus.


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## seaslush (Oct 28, 2019)

goldenchild
I thought that I might process the gold at home but after the first batch I can say that a 167 lbs is a lot of processing and the other components take a different process. I really don’t want to play with nitric acid.
You have to remember that I worked at a scrapyard that had old electronic components built in the sixties when gold was only $300


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## seaslush (Oct 28, 2019)

snoman701

The material was free
25% for refining
more then 2.7
They mixed all 6 commodities right in front of me.
same as a lawyer 250/ hr.


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## seaslush (Oct 28, 2019)

ericrm 
It is the principle of honesty 
Their web page is full of bs
They know that it will be almost impossible to prove.


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## butcher (Oct 29, 2019)

seaslush,

Say that the settlement was low for the material involved. 

You have no way of knowing if you were paid fairly on the metals recovered.

Without an umpire sample, or assay of those materials you provided to use for comparison of the value of the materials before leaching and after the recovery process, I cannot see this going far in court.




seaslush said:


> Johnny5
> only the gold
> The only thing I have to watch is the disposal of hydrochloric acid. Bleach Peroxide and Vinegar are not hazardous waste. This forum covers this.



You would definitely lose that argument in court.
These are deadly toxic and hazardous wastes.


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## niks neims (Oct 29, 2019)

No offense seaslush, but it seems to me that you learned a very due and needed lesson for yourself...

I'd suggest you drop all this "going to court" silliness, unless you want to pay much much more for the repeat course 

You won't get ANY money out of this, you'll just make a fool out of yourself and waste a lot of time...

You could gain a lot more knowledge out of it if you would spend that time reading this forum, learning... in a few months you will see clearly your mistakes, what you did wrong...


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## anachronism (Oct 29, 2019)

It will cost you more than you've received already. The only winners will be the lawyers. 

If you received your gold nett of their charges I would genuinely be chalking it up to experience and move on because you've got no way to prove them wrong. 

It would be really good for *you* if you took that advice, but history tells me you probably won't Sir. So divorce emotion from this as hard as that may be, and think with your head not your heart.


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## kurtak (Oct 29, 2019)

anachronism said:


> It will cost you more than you've received already. The only winners will be the lawyers.
> 
> If you received your gold nett of their charges I would genuinely be chalking it up to experience and move on because you've got no way to prove them wrong.
> 
> It would be really good for *you* if you took that advice, but history tells me you probably won't Sir. So divorce emotion from this as hard as that may be, and think with your head not your heart.



Per the underlined - this is the best advice you have been given - I suggest you follow it :!: 



> snoman701
> 
> The material was free
> 25% for refining
> ...



Again per the underlined

Just how many hours do you think an attorney is going to spend (charge you) to sue (at $250/hour)

10 hours - nope

20 hours "maybe" - at the "very' least --- you just lost money

30 hours - more likely - now you are spending money out of your own pocket

40 hours - most likely - now you are spending LOTS of money out of your pocket

And the above is based on the *FACT* that you are *NOT* going to win this :!: :!: :!: 

Kurt


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## Palladium (Oct 29, 2019)

I don't know why he's so concerned with what the attorney charges.
Wait until he gets my bill! :mrgreen: 
I guess i could qualify as an expert in the field, maybe not!
It was just the other day my quote: "Street Creed" was called into question! 

It's hard for people to make these decisions and sort out difficult choices. That's why it's best just to hire the proper lawyers and professionals and let them all get together and sort this out. Sometimes these things can take months or even years!

Or you could go with this guy, but he would probably charge more than i would. :arrow: https://www.ebay.com/


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## snoman701 (Oct 29, 2019)

butcher said:


> You have no way of knowing if you were paid fairly on the metals recovered.



This...right here.

You have no case. 

What's worse, is that at this point, your statements are libelous.

We are only seeing one side of the story, and it has holes big enough to drive a semi truck through. You've named them publicly, labeled them a thief...with little to no evidence of what you should have been paid other than your historical experience with fingers...which are a high grade item and could have been the highest valued item included. Even after it was pointed out that there is a possibility that their payout is legitimate. 

I can see many scenarios where you were ripped off, but you haven't done anything to disprove the payout you were given.


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## snoman701 (Oct 29, 2019)

kurtak said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > It will cost you more than you've received already. The only winners will be the lawyers.
> ...



And you are too nice to mention paralegal hours, expert witness per diem + 20%, court fees, etc. 

There’s a reason lawsuits don’t happen over small amounts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## goldenchild (Oct 29, 2019)

seaslush said:


> goldenchild
> I thought that I might process the gold at home but after the first batch I can say that a 167 lbs is a lot of processing and the other components take a different process. I really don’t want to play with nitric acid.
> You have to remember that I worked at a scrapyard that had old electronic components built in the sixties when gold was only $300



I'll say this and then I'm done. You're valuing ALL of your scrap from the 10lbs of fingers you processed. However you said you only sent the refiner 15lbs of fingers. Not 167lbs (all fingers). So lets say that you indeed got 1 ounce from the 10lbs you personally processed. And the 15 additional pounds was similar enough to what you processed. That means you would get about 1.5 ounces from the fingers. How do you know that all the other scrap didn't amount to 1.2 ounces? That would give you the 2.7 they came up with. Without getting an assay of all your material there simply isn't a way to prove what your yield should have been. Good luck.


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## ericrm (Oct 29, 2019)

seaslush said:


> ericrm
> It is the principle of honesty
> Their web page is full of bs
> They know that it will be almost impossible to prove.



well if you took it for free from the yards for 13 years just like all the other guys did. it sound to me that you have been stealing your employer for 13 years. maybe you should just lay low. if it were me i would not want my ex boss knowing that i took 25000$ (or whatever you think your material was worth) with the hope of selling it in his back...


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## g_axelsson (Oct 29, 2019)

We don't know what the deal between the yard and seaslush was. Maybe he had permission to take some material out, maybe he owns the yard. Better not accusing anyone for stealing without knowing the details.

For a couple of years I had an informal deal with a yard. I was allowed to take connectors and electronics from a big pile of mixed scrap if I just sorted the stuff I dismantled. They got the cables, aluminium, copper, steel, brass and other stuff sorted for free, I got material for refining. I just loved when big racks of electromechanical exchanges arrived. I brought the relays back home, extracted all contact points and then returned with the base metals.

So I got my stuff "for free" too, one ounce of gold was extracted from scrap I collected that time when I visited Jon this summer. Over a kilo of silver is still sitting in a box at home and I probably have more stuff left from that deal too. The yard got several tons of scrap dismantled for free and only lost the stuff they really didn't have the time to mess with.

Göran


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## seaslush (Oct 29, 2019)

thanks Göran that is the same deal I had.

Funny that not one of the replies did a search on GRC for complaints
I found two.

I am pretty sure that everyone here agrees that I got ripped off - they did not do the promised assays as stated on their web page, thus destroying the evidence and making all most impossible to prove the yield. A forensic audit of that month may shed some light. I will let the IRS know… and my story on social media will be payback (without calling them liars). Thanks all for all the input..


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## etack (Oct 29, 2019)

Your reply on any media that names names must only be facts. They can be tilted to your “injustice” but little to know feelings or threats must be in it. If you do wonder from the facts you open yourself to libelous law suits. Also do not say in any such way that if they make it right you will change your review. That’s extortion (I had a friend get in some hot water with that) you can simply say that you will add to it any new information that you get. 

Hope this helps. 

I’ve felt screwed and I’ve had clients feel screwed by me. That doesn’t mean it happened. 

Eric


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2019)

seaslush said:


> thanks Göran that is the same deal I had.
> 
> Funny that not one of the replies did a search on GRC for complaints
> I found two.
> ...



The way you've worded this reply shows that you've only listened to the people who have agreed with your position, and you've discounted everyone else. I don't agree that you've been ripped off and most people don't either. You may have been. but as people have pointed out, you don't know for sure and cannot prove it without spending a lot of money. 

You're going to let the IRS know- that shows three things. Firstly that despite advice you're after revenge. Dig two graves. Secondly that you're not using your head because the IRS will want to know a lot more than you think you can get away with telling them. Once you open that Pandora's box it can never be shut again. Thirdly you're so wrapped up in your emotion that you're becoming deluded. You throw this up on social media and you'll get exactly the same responses as you're getting here, apart from the other thickos who think the world owes them a living. 

Do what you will, but my cup of sympathy is now empty.

Edit for typo


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## g_axelsson (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm agreeing with Jon.

I haven't taken a position on if you were ripped off or not. I don't have enough facts to make a judgement on that.

Based on what I have seen on their website and your story, I believe this is a deal that went sour because GRC doesn't seem to be set up for dealing with electronic scrap and you didn't know enough to see the warning signs.

The fact that you got back 150 pounds of material just shows they don't have a product stream that could absorb your scrap. And you still have a lot of your gold left in that material.

The original 180 pounds is just a tiny lot, I don't know of any professional refinery that would treat it as a separate lot. Just handling charges and assay costs to keep it separate from other scrap streams would eat up most of the values extracted. This was a lot more suited for boardsort than a mainly carat gold refinery.

So I believe that both you and GRC is at fault. You for sending it to a company not suited to handling the material and having too high expectations and not recognizing the warning signs. GRC for accepting a lot they couldn't handle in a professional way.

In the end I think you both have made a loss on this deal and you should both swallow your pride and learn from it. Just move on, going for revenge would not do you any good and you will only loose more money.

That is my take on this, based on your side of the story and the website of GRC which both may be factually wrong or not complete.

Göran


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## kurtak (Oct 30, 2019)

anachronism said:


> seaslush said:
> 
> 
> > thanks Göran that is the same deal I had.
> ...



Per the underlined - I agree with Jon --- in other words - I do NOT agree that you got ripped off - you are hearing what "you want to hear" --- not what people are telling you :roll: 

for what it's worth - most everyone that has replied to this thread are "in fact" professional refiners & have been at this for a VERY long time - you just are not listening to what they are telling you

To clarify --- you may - or - may NOT have been ripped off --- bottom line - there is NO WAY TO PROVE IT ether way :!: :!: :!: :roll: 

Kurt


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## Shark (Oct 30, 2019)

I see it from another point of view. The cost to pursue this, and it will be high, is enough to make a fair start at another lot of materials. Take what you got from that batch, and buy more material at a decent price and start with another refiner. The problem is if you have posted the same information elsewhere that is posted here, it could make if pretty difficult to find anyone to refine it for you. All this leads to my point, had you learned more about the refining aspect and less about the "money in your pocket" side you would have been better prepared for the outcome, good or bad. 

Of course you could learn to refine it yourself, and recover the material that may have been left by the previous refiner and protect yourself from such potential events from occurring again.


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## snoman701 (Oct 30, 2019)

Shark said:


> The problem is if you have posted the same information elsewhere that is posted here, it could make if pretty difficult to find anyone to refine it for you.



A couple days ago, for a brief a moment I thought to myself, "self...you should contact him, there's probably a good amount of gold LEFT that wasn't recovered". Then your point smacked me upside the head. 

Actually...what's left could tell more of the story than any of us can even begin to guess.


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2019)

snoman701 said:


> Shark said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is if you have posted the same information elsewhere that is posted here, it could make if pretty difficult to find anyone to refine it for you.
> ...



Yep - "Danger Will Robinson Danger" springs to mind.


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## Shark (Oct 30, 2019)

The guy has been here since 2014. With minimal effort, he should have a better understanding of his materials by now, and where to go with them. To me that is a warning sign in itself. Then with his first dealing with a refiner he is ready to sue, another sign. A simple fix would have been to ask the forum, there are many here who deal with much larger sums of material and some very good ones who deal with lots as small as his. I have all but quit doing boards, and only do a few cherry picked items for myself. One day I might do more for others, but I would not do whole boards, there is just to many variables to be as accurate as some are looking for.


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2019)

You're right Shark. It shows how little value was placed upon the forum and forum advice. Now we're supposed to help pick up the pieces. 

I might sound harsh but I always cringe a little when I read "Ive been a lurker here for x years but now I'm going to ask something really basic." :lol:


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## seaslush (Oct 30, 2019)

I wasn’t going to respond but this is an educational forum an a dam good one at that.
Mentioning the tax man and social media just showed how the refiners stickup for each other like the cops and the blue wall.
The refiners skim all the time - all weights should be in grams not pounds and ounces.
Assays should be done on every lot.
The only fair way for the customer getting an assay is to be standing there and watching that the refiner doesn’t salt the assay.
For the small guys - learn to refine yourself - you will come out way ahead.
Thanks to everyone for the inputs - thanks for the education - no hard feelings!


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## anachronism (Oct 30, 2019)

My pleasure and good luck out there mate. 

Jon


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## patnor1011 (Nov 1, 2019)

seaslush said:


> I wasn’t going to respond but this is an educational forum an a dam good one at that.
> Mentioning the tax man and social media just showed how the refiners stickup for each other like the cops and the blue wall.
> The refiners skim all the time - all weights should be in grams not pounds and ounces.
> Assays should be done on every lot.
> ...



No. You were not ripped off and it seems that they actually did a good job for you. 
Over half of your material was in fact low grade where yield is negligible unless you deal with tons of that kind of material and do have a proper setup for recovery in place. The only thing you had with higher value in that lot was fingers which were roughly 10% of total volume and perhaps some of ceramic cpu which were roughly another 20% of the lot. The rest you had can yield in grams per kilogram in the best case.

I was in the same shoes having collected 14 kilograms of fully plated tiny pins from old laptops. It took years to accumulate and to say that the result was disappointing is an understatement. The result was just 23 gram and that came from about 2000 laptops. 
Do I feel ripped off? Absolutely but the only thing I was ripped off was my own time spent collecting that stuff.

Disclaimer.
I am not a refiner or cop and therefore not a part of your "blue wall".


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## seaslush (Nov 5, 2019)

last rebuttal 

Lie 1 
“We have a stringent process in place in which each shipment is weighed in, hand checked to the best of our ability, and then logged into our system. Material then proceeds to melt and undergoes a fire assay, which provides the most precise results in determining precious metals purity. Ultimately this material is introduced into the refining stream. With regard to the final numbers on the fire assay, three samples are utilized for calculation to ensure the utmost accuracy. These are the results that are reported to the customer for which they get paid and typical turnaround time is 24 to 48 hours.” 

This was not done.

Lie 2
“Our first obligation at General Refining is client satisfaction. This is why we take any criticism or complaint about our service extremely seriously.”

I am not satisfied and have not heard from them.


I delivered 167 lbs of e scrap.
Lie 3 
They processed 181 lbs of e scrap.
They returned 151 lbs of striped e scrap.
Why such large differences and where is it?

Why would GRC lie about the above matters - and not the yield.
You will have a hard time trying to convince me that they fair.

They leave me no choice but to go to social media and let the truth be known .


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## anachronism (Nov 6, 2019)

Sigh.

You're still not listening to anyone elses' point of view and you're now winding yourself up into a frenzy. There's no logic in your first point because they returned you all that gold from a small amount of your product which as been explained to you on a number of occasions but you refuse to listen. 

You'd rather get wound up and angry and full of victimhood. I let your "blue line" comment pass however it smacks of paranoia. 

Look this is just my opinion as I am not a moderator. I don't see how your ranting posts are benefiting the forum.


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## nickvc (Nov 6, 2019)

It’s possible they did a poor job of stripping the gold from your material if you post a few pictures perhaps we can shed some light on the situation for you but I would advise you not to keep openly accusing them of theft it might well cost you a lot more than what you think you have lost now.


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## g_axelsson (Nov 6, 2019)

I just deleted my last post. As there were no replies I could do it without disrupting the discussion.

I read "GRF" instead of "GRC" and made a mistake, thinking you were attacking the forum now and responded to that.

I apologize for that post to anyone that read it.

Thanks Nick for spotting that and letting me know.

Göran


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## anachronism (Nov 6, 2019)

Yeah however the context was correct Goran, it was just WHO was being insulted. I actually agreed with your post.


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## g_axelsson (Nov 6, 2019)

Yeah, but as I'm not a party in the case, I can't state if something is a lie or not.

I still have the post in my cache...


> All I've seen is people trying to help you and you just insult us. That is not civic behavior.
> 
> It's an effective way to drive off anyone trying to help you, we are sharing experience and time for free.
> 
> Many of the people trying to help you are not even on the same continent, why would we lie to you?



I removed three lines that were based on my faulty reading. I still think there is a lesson learned here for other people. Here we can see how taking on a deal that isn't suitable for the refinery created a lot of grievance, both for the original poster and for the refinery.

Who's to blame and how much blame each party should take is nothing I can say. We have only seen one side of this story so far.

Göran


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## jimdoc (Nov 6, 2019)

Without pictures of what you sent in, and what was returned, it just leaves a lot of guessing. If you want some better answers, you will need to show some pics.
You must have pictures if you planned on going to court, right?


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## seaslush (Nov 6, 2019)

June 20, 2017 
GRC had a complaint about being short changed on yields.

September 11, 2018 
GRC again had a complaint about being short changed on yields. 

February 2019 
GRC now has a third complaint about being short changed on yields.

Do you see a patten here?

And what business adds almost 20 lbs of gold plated material to the job lot?
Thats a sign of skimming to me.

You just can’t admit that there is a bad apple here.


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 6, 2019)

seaslush said:


> June 20, 2017
> GRC had a complaint about being short changed on yields.
> 
> September 11, 2018
> ...


Yes, I see a pattern of about one complaint per year. That's pretty good no matter what business you're in.




> You just can’t admit that there is a bad apple here.


What do you mean by a bad apple here? Are you saying that someone from GRC is a member here? Do you believe that our forum is somehow affiliated with GRC?

Dave


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## Shark (Nov 6, 2019)

Now I am really confused. By adding material to your lot they are skimming? How is giving you a small amount of material skimming? I thought skimming was taking away from your material. 

One complaint a year is nothing. Many large and reputable companies see many times that. The real question is how many of those complaints ended up in them loosing? How many even ended up in court? How many times have people had good things to say about them? If I could average 2.7 ounces for every 167 pounds of material I sent to a refiner I would be collecting a lot more boards than I do now. Even those numbers sound strange... over 13 years you collected 167 pounds of materials. That really sounds pretty low, even if it was all higher grades stuff. I took nearly that from a local scrap yard in one day. And I am no refiner, I am just a guy that wanted to try to get the gold from a truck load of trash. I am no cop, although there are a couple in my family. Most of all I just want to get better at this. Most of these people make a living at this, I am just happy to get a piece of gold now and then and take pride in the quality of it. 

Oh well, time for the evening relax time.......


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## g_axelsson (Nov 7, 2019)

seaslush said:


> June 20, 2017
> GRC had a complaint about being short changed on yields.
> 
> September 11, 2018
> ...


Yes, I can see a pattern here. You are trying to get us to all agree with your view. At the same time you just ignore any request for pictures or more details.

Göran


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## glorycloud (Nov 7, 2019)

"Yes, I can see a pattern here. You are trying to get us to all agree with your view. "

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Nice one Goran!


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## seaslush (Nov 7, 2019)

Because GRC said 181 lbs and I saw 167 lbs 
I am going to use the returned material weight at 151+ lbs 

15+ lbs of trimmed fingers
44 + lbs of printed circuit boards
32 + lbs of cpu 20 lbs high grade 12 lbs low grade
7 + lbs of misalliances 
53 + lbs of pins and connectors
5 lbs of gold plate contact points

32 lbs of cpu (20 lbs high grade 12 lbs low grade) and 15 lbs of trimmed fingers leaves more then 100 lbs of material left, including 5 lbs of gold plated contact points, as well as the difference of total true weight I sent in.

Look at the guide and do the math….on the lowest yield.

Before I sent my material out, I did my own stripping of fingers using AP and refined it with vinegar and bleach and I got 1 ounce of gold with only 10 lbs fingers. This tells me that there is more then 2.7 ounces
When I use the Gold Mining Guide (at the lowest yield) I should have lot more than 2.7 ounces. And don’t count the Gold Mining Guide out. It was published to help the forum members. I watched more then 5 different videos on each of the cpus, fingers and pins striping and refining and they matched the yields of the guide. I would like to see the proof from the naysayers as to why the guide should not be used as a reference.

Remember that this was high grade e waste (high grade because of old industrial and commercial electronics as well as old cncs, telecommunications equipment, old industrial computers). and this is why I got the high yield. 

For those that still say that 2.7 is fair - educate me. No one has yet.
I have given you my side of the story. Enough of me, and my experience, lets move on.

The forum was started to help fellow refiners and I came here to inform others about my experience with GRC. 

Who else has had a experience of being cheated and how did you handle it?


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## jimdoc (Nov 7, 2019)

Still no pictures? At least pics of what you are calling high grade and low grade cpu's.
And of this stuff; (high grade because of old industrial and commercial electronics as well as old cncs, telecommunications equipment, old industrial computers)


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## anachronism (Nov 7, 2019)

jimdoc said:


> Still no pictures? At least pics of what you are calling high grade and low grade cpu's.
> And of this stuff; (high grade because of old industrial and commercial electronics as well as old cncs, telecommunications equipment, old industrial computers)



Correct Jim

Slush there's no hard data for anyone to work to. WHAT did they refine to give you a new figure (after their share) of 2.7 ounces. Which material gave you that? 

You've got the vast majority back so where's the rip off if it's still sitting there or did I miss something? 

Jim and others are correct- you're presenting feelings let's have facts. You FEEL like you have been ripped off and you're telling all and sundry that you've been ripped off but when asked for the hard facts to back it up you're not presenting them. If you want an opinion, mine is that they got so pissed off with you that they sent your material and gold back to you in order to get rid. I've had clients like you where no matter how much gold I get, it's never ever enough and the day one accused me of stealing was the day I packed up all their material and send it back along with all the gold I had done so far at my own expense. As refiners we all get this kind of client and I've discussed it on another thread. 

Pictures- weights, what went in, what came out. <<<<<<< THIS. You. Have. No . Facts. Just. Guesswork. *Present the facts properly and convince me and I'll be your best ally ever. *

If you won't present that then you have no case. Put some proper effort into this. As I said before you may be right however you're not convincing anyone with all the rhetoric.

So time to poop or get off the pot. Either present the facts or stop cluttering up our forum with your ranting. Which is is going to be? 

Jon


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## Johnny5 (Nov 7, 2019)

anachronism said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Still no pictures? At least pics of what you are calling high grade and low grade cpu's.
> ...



Seaslush, 
I am going to be as polite as I can given your circumstances. I am surprised at the restraint that some members have extended to you thus far. 
Most everyone on this thread has attempted to assist you in various ways, and you've basically spit in their face!!
So listen up, 
A good idea, would be to post pictures so that we can give you some expert opinions. At least that way you may get some closure.
A great idea, would be to drop this altogether, learn from it, and move on! Everyone knows what it's like to have been taken advantage of, or stolen from. We've all been there, and I know it is extremely frustrating. In fact a dear friend of mine (a member here) had a ridiculous amount stolen from him not to long ago, and he just dropped it and moved on.
A *BAD* idea would be to keep kicking everyone on the teeth that are trying to help you. 
You are at the right place to learn more about escrap, processing, safety, and everything that goes with those. And we will be more than happy to facilitate that progress, but as Jon just said,


anachronism said:


> So time to poop or get off the pot. Either present the facts or stop cluttering up our forum with your ranting. Which is is going to be?
> 
> Jon


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## seaslush (Nov 10, 2019)

this is what was returned...
I didn't take a pic of all the boards - there are 3 boxes
if you need closer or more pics - just ask


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 10, 2019)

The boards in the first pic still have ICs intact. Some of your gold is there. Some could be cemented in the inner layers of the boards, depending on how they were processed.

Not much gold to begin with in the bucket of pins in the second picture, but they look fully stripped.

The third pic of fingers includes some mid to lower grade stuff.

Fourth pic was low grade to start. I can't really tell from the pic if they were processed to recover the bit of gold they contain.

The ICs in the fifth pic probably still contain some of your gold.

Dave


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## snoman701 (Nov 10, 2019)

Ok...so your pins are hard to tell, if they look like they have some black smut on them, that's gold. Otherwise you have nickel plate which has been leached of gold. 

Processors - green/brown fiber type...they are done. 

Fingers - done.

Processors - ceramic and black fiber...appear to have a majority of the gold intact. Hard to tell. 

Boards - appear to have chips intact, which indicates a majority of the gold is still intact. 

Overall, it's hard to say if what you got is a fair amount for what has been removed. It really depends on how it broke down between weights of boards vs processors vs fingers, etc. 

Really need close up pics of the ceramics to be able to tell if they got the gold out or not, but I suspect they did not. Appears they just used a cyanide leach.


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## snoman701 (Nov 10, 2019)

What's the weight of that pile of ceramics?

Just looking at it, I'd say you should have gotten a couple ounces from that alone. But, like I said, it appears most of that gold is still there...it's just hidden. 

Had you posted these pictures long long ago you would have gotten a much different response.


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## Johnny5 (Nov 10, 2019)

Here's my opinion,
I see multiple things wrong. First off, in their description of their services, they discuss everything going to melt, which none of this was.
It looks as though everything was run through Cn. If that's the case, that would explain the black residue on the pins and the CPUs and pretty much everything there. It looks like the gold cemented on the exposed Cu and Ni. Chris and Harold taught me a long time ago that you never run pins in Cn. The surface to mass ratio of the base metals consumes the excess Cn and O2 causing the values to start cementing quickly.
Also I see what appears to be left over gold on those ceramics. That could also be explained if they were ran in Cn, because it will not dissolve the metal under the die. Also if the CPUs were not presoaked, some of your values were absorbed into the substrate.
Bottom line, it appears to me that you have a lot of values left in that material. It also appears to me, that the so called refinery did a horrible job. 
If I were you, I would start studying, and process what you have there. 
Thank you very much for posting these pictures.


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## g_axelsson (Nov 10, 2019)

Most of the gold in the ceramic CPU pile is still there ( last picture ). Bond wires and gold brazing is not touched. It also looks like a large portion of the CPU:s are black fiber types, they should not be processed with the ceramic CPU:s.

Göran


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## anachronism (Nov 11, 2019)

Definitely a cyanide leach. 

The ceramic procs and the pins show signs of redeposition. As you've been told before there is certainly gold in the procs, and there appears to be some on the pins because it looks like they didn't do a thorough job of the leach.


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## Shark (Nov 11, 2019)

Amazing what a few pictures can do.


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## patnor1011 (Nov 11, 2019)

They did a horrible job. All they did was to strip visible gold with cyanide leach. A poor job definitely but I do not think they cheated you out of money or gold. There is gold all over your material but honestly, your stuff is nothing special and even if you manage to salvage what is still left on your stuff result will not be much higher from what you already got. 

The bulk of your material is printed circuit boards that do not have a lot of gold in gold plating no matter what they came from. 

A lot of what you describe as high grade CPU are in fact mid to low grade and they should be processed differently. Ceramic needs to be broken to start with. Black fiber CPU needs to be processed differently as most of the gold is locked in a substrate in the middle which needs to be scraped off and incinerated. 

You still have a lot of work to do to recover gold from your material.


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## seaslush (Nov 13, 2019)

I opened up the ceramic cpus
I only lost half of the value...


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 13, 2019)

seaslush said:


> I opened up the ceramic cpus
> I only lost half of the value...


I'm not sure I understand what you've lost. :? You've already received 2.7 ounces of refined gold. You have the scrap back, which contains the rest of your gold. Maybe it's just the wording and the history of this thread. If you recover what's left, you may be closer to your original expectations.

Dave


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## patnor1011 (Nov 17, 2019)

You do not need to "open" them but to smash them with a hammer to break each of them to like at least 4 pieces. Pick small square gold plated lids and process them separately. Other lids do not have much of the value but can be thrown in a stockpot as they do have quite a lot of copper in them. Also take out those black fiber CPU they also require different preparation with few more steps before the gold refining process.


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