# Refining with fire



## Anonymous (Nov 11, 2008)

Hello, 
This is my first post so let me say, I buy jewelry making scrap from local jewelers. I have about 10 pounds of silver in various forms and various purities. From 20 percent pure Tibetan silver beads to fine silver wire.
Anyway I have a forge set up utilizing waste oil and grease from local kitchens, I used it to melt aluminum. I have played around with melting silver, So I know I can melt it. 
What I need to know is how can I take my scrap and melt it and then either cast it in to ingots or casting grains to resell to jewelers?
And does it complicate it if there is also some silver plate in the batch?
-Chris


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## Harold_V (Nov 11, 2008)

You don't have a sound objective. 

Jewelers that have pride in their work don't try to sell unknown metals, which you would provide. It is not only dishonest, but generally creates more problems for the bench man than can be addressed, even if the metal was free to them. I have serious doubt that that would be your objective. 

I trust you understand that melting values in vessels that have previously melted aluminum is _not acceptable_. 

The problem doesn't stop with your end product being an unknown. Precious metals that are alloyed (that includes silver) lose their ability to melt without issues when they are repeatedly melted (assuming they are alloyed with base metals, which silver is). The base metals oxidize with each heating, eventually yielding metal that won't cast without inclusions. The inclusions I speak of manifest themselves as porosity in the metal, which can't be buffed out or otherwise eliminated. Refining is one of the ways to improve the quality of the metal. Such refining is almost never a process of melting, although melting can be a part of the refining process. 

One of the things you haven't addressed is the possibility of introducing harmful elements to your individual charges. They can come from items having been improperly repaired by using soft solder, or even from including nickel from items made from German silver. The very idea that you inquired about adding plated, or otherwise unknown metals to each charge is evidence of your complete lack of understanding. The objective of a refiner is to purify metals, not to melt them. Please understand I'm not trying to insult you with my comments. Just trying to save you from pursuing an objective that is not in your best interest, nor that of others. 

I strongly advise that you explore the concept of refining and alloying of metals before you make any decisions about what you'd like to do with your accumulated material, and how to best approach your objective. 

My opinion is all of it should be processed to eliminate base metals (hopefully just copper), yielding pure silver which can then be used for any and all purposes. You would normally accomplish that mission by dissolving all of the metals with dilute nitric acid, and recovering the silver with copper. The resulting metal would then be washed well, melted and poured as an anode, then parted in a silver cell to achieve fine silver. 

Welcome to the forum! :wink: 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Nov 11, 2008)

Harold, thanks for your honest response, I just thought there was a way I could do it with heat, I assume that's the old fashioned way, but it seems to me that for me to get anything worthwhile a chemical process will be much better. 
Hey, this is why I asked the experts!
-Chris


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## Anonymous (Jul 10, 2010)

Real Thanks to Harold. 

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## dtectr (Jul 10, 2010)

Welcome to the forum!

"Such refining is almost never a process of melting, although melting can be a part of the refining process."

Harold is absolutely correct. In fact, even the ancient method of "refining by fire" as mentioned in the Bible, 7 other ancient wrirings, also included chemical methods of refining, though crude. Use of cuppeling, as well as addition of charcoal, oxgen, and/or "lye".

*** it-2 p. 210 Laundryman ***
Lye. The Hebrew word bo·rith′, translated “lye” (in some translations, “soap”), refers to a vegetable alkali as distinguished from ne′ther, the so-called mineral alkali. The distinction was not one of chemical composition but, rather, was based on the difference in the source of supply. At Jeremiah 2:22 both words occur in the same verse. Chemically the lye of Bible times was sodium carbonate or potassium carbonate, depending on whether the vegetation from which the ashes were obtained was grown near the sea on saline soil or grown inland. The chemicals in the ashes were separated by leaching or filtering with water. This lye is different from the modern-day chemical termed “lye,” the very caustic potassium hydroxide. The ancient laundryman’s lye was used not only for clothes cleaning (Mal 3:2) but also for the reduction of such metals as lead and silver.—Isa 1:25."

A jeweler i worked for many years ago would reuse his silver repeatedly, with no real regard for the actual purity of the final product. we did one run of high-end art jewelry, which, after casting, was filled with pits. His solution was to grind out the inclusions with a ball burr and fuse balls of Sterling into the crater, which we then finished with a steel wire wheel. As a solution it was temporary, as the metals, being different alloys oxidized differently, showing discoloration where the repair was made. This even after rhodium plating (though I'm not sure why).

If you give it time, you'll find here on this site the proper way to refine & by the comments of many here, if you follow the expert advice shared here, you can ultimately accomplish your "objective" the right way. 

dtectr


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## qst42know (Jul 10, 2010)

orientalgem said:


> Real Thanks to Harold.
> 
> silver beads wholesale
> 
> ...





Bead peddler spam?

Not anymore, it isn't!

Harold


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## dtectr (Jul 10, 2010)

qst42know said:


> orientalgem said:
> 
> 
> > Real Thanks to Harold.
> ...



my thoughts 'per-ZACK-ly'.
jordan


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