# a refining idea



## troymoore4 (Mar 7, 2016)

i was wondering if you could heat gold to its boiling point for the sake of burning off more impurity. once you get it to 90 something percent pure that is.


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## nickvc (Mar 7, 2016)

The simple answer is no!
You can remove some impurities with high temperatures, but if you want to attain high purity you need to use chemicals, sorry no easy way.
If you don't want to or can't face using chemicals simply buy and sell, always leave some margin for others.


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## upcyclist (Mar 7, 2016)

Also, gold boils at 2790°C (5378°F). If you have the money to invest in something that gets that hot, you have enough money for chemical refining


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## Geraldo (Mar 8, 2016)

Actually, in a way the answer is "yes."

Look up the "Miller Chlorination Process" or "Miller Process for gold refining." Chlorine gas is sparged through molten impure gold in order to chlorinate the impurities, which boil off and leave purified gold behind. So, in a way, the gold is purified by boiling off the impurities (except the impurities need to be chlorides, which have a low boiling point relative to metallic gold).

Careful operation of the Miller Process results in 99 - 99.5% pure gold (called "fine") and in special circumstances 99.9 - 99.95% purity. Industrially, another refining process (typically electrorefining) is normally used to make 99.99+ gold after initial Miller refining.

The great disadvantage is that the process itself is terribly ugly - dealing with pure chlorine gas and various metal chloride vapors is horrible. Even with very good ventilation, some of the condensed chlorides make sticky deposits that require lots of scraping and chipping before they choke off the exhaust pipes. In any case, it isn't a process that anyone should or could attempt in their backyards, unless they want to kill themselves, their families and their neighbors.


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## solar_plasma (Mar 8, 2016)

I would expect a lot of gold to vaporize and being lost. Further this purity can be obtained by any wet refining and with a well done second refining we expect to be at 9995+. If you need more, look here:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=3079
No need for boiling off any values.


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## jason_recliner (Mar 8, 2016)

If one had the equipment, and inclination, to take gold to its boiling point, then it follows that it could be distilled.
That'd be one hell of a moonshine.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 8, 2016)

jason_recliner said:


> If one had the equipment, and inclination, to take gold to its boiling point, then it follows that it could be distilled.
> That'd be one hell of a moonshine.



The equipment required to vaporize gold and then recover it is not cheap. Vacuum furnaces are expensive, usually require long heating time if a tube furnace for example, and deposit vaporized gold on any surface it can adhere to.

A metal condensing could coil, such that is used in stills or retort furnaces, most likely become clogged with deposited gold after several uses.

Far better and less expensive to just simy make colloidal gold.

Scott


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> i was wondering if you could heat gold to its boiling point for the sake of burning off more impurity. once you get it to 90 something percent pure that is.



Simply using borax in the correct way can and does remove impurities, metal oxides. Adding oxygen helps this process along.

During the gold rush, miners would grind Ore concentrates, and then flux with borax and sometimes the addition of others materials such as glass, loading the charge with half the borax at the bottom of the crucible, and then Ore concentrate/gold, then half the borax charge on top. As the mixture heats, the borax lowers the overall melting temperature of all metals and minerals present. As the minerals decompose to their elemental form, the oxides of these elements rise to the top where they then can be elected off, or a spoon like tong used to remove the impurities, metal oxides. This process produces a relatively high purity of gold.

No need to invent the wheel.

To get better results, wet chemistry, or electrochemistry in today's world is the method most commonly used.

"Boiling gold" is not a good idea, the equipment would be very expensive, as would the process be, and would require much more work and effort on the part of the refiner.

Scott


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## troymoore4 (Mar 8, 2016)

Alrighty, but I had another thought. Imagine, for example, you have a 5gal. bucket full of 'gold fingers' you removed from scrapped computer memory chips. Is it possible to just heat it all up to a point where the non-metalic components will burn off an leave the metallic parts unharmed? Using, of course, the proper tools/supplies to do so.


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## upcyclist (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> Alrighty, but I had another thought. Imagine, for example, you have a 5gal. bucket full of 'gold fingers' you removed from scrapped computer memory chips. Is it possible to just heat it all up to a point where the non-metalic components will burn off an leave the metallic parts unharmed? Using, of course, the proper tools/supplies to do so.


So now you're talking about the combustion and/or boiling point of base metals. Most of those metals and oxides are things you don't want to breathe or release into the air. As Scott said:


NobleMetalWorks said:


> Simply using borax in the correct way can and does remove impurities, metal oxides. Adding oxygen helps this process along.


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## troymoore4 (Mar 8, 2016)

I meant the non metallic pieces of circuit board that the metals are attached to so that nothing but the metallic components are left behind.


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## butcher (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4,
Forget what you think might happen, and learn what happens.

You can incinerate the organic material, but keep in mind the the amount of toxins produced, many reactive metals can oxidize and burn off as deadly toxins, deadly acids and many very dangerous compounds are formed from burning electronic materials, which will not only poison the soil, air, the trees, and everything around you but can also poison you and your family, some of these poisons may linger in the area for years to come.

I feel you are wasting your time asking these questions, your time is much better spent studying, you will learn much more than you could ever think of to ask. and the answers you find will be much more valuable in answering any question you may have.


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## troymoore4 (Mar 8, 2016)

These questions are part of the research I am doing. I figure its better to do a lot of research and also ask of thosevwith more knowledge/experience than I have so thastvwhen I actually start, I will be better armed/equipped information wise.


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## patnor1011 (Mar 8, 2016)

Then you need to research about legality of incinerating PCB (printed circuit board) in some quantities. It is illegal pretty much anywhere in the western countries. That is why it is shipped and done in africa or asia.


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## nickvc (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> These questions are part of the research I am doing. I figure its better to do a lot of research and also ask of thosevwith more knowledge/experience than I have so thastvwhen I actually start, I will be better armed/equipped information wise.



You would be better off using the forum for its archive of information which covers all the questions you have asked.
You want one to one training in refining then I hope you have deep pockets,it's available, you want to spend the time reading and learning it's free, all the time.
The choice is yours study or spend, if you study you will learn amazing chemistry and maybe a future in recovery and refining or perhaps a fascinating hobby, if you want to get rich quick take my advice and work on Wall Street because this is no way to do it.
No one here gets paid to help and constant questions about how to or can I will earn you no favours with the members, read and study, get stuck ask questions, it's a simple rule we adhere to, most of the guys that responded can answer all your questions but they learned how to, it's now your turn.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> These questions are part of the research I am doing. I figure its better to do a lot of research and also ask of thosevwith more knowledge/experience than I have so thastvwhen I actually start, I will be better armed/equipped information wise.



You are not really researching at all, you are asking for answers to questions which you should at least be aware enough, if you were far enough in your research, to realize they are not good questions. Research first, ask for clarification once you have a good solid base understanding and knowledge.

Most people inquire for clarification, not to be held by the hand, and told why their ideas are not viable.

You might serve your purpose far better by asking your questions, first, in the search bar or by using Google search. Then bread the information and if needed, asking for clarification. We help each other on this forum, but that doesn't mean posting all your questions for answers without doing any of the research yourself.

Scott


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## troymoore4 (Mar 8, 2016)

With respect sir, you do not know what/how I am doing my research,nso please do not say I am not researching at all based on the questions I ask here. While I am the first to admit there's is much I don't know, I do know that if you want the answers you have to ask the questions. Had you asked me about my research I would have to!d you that so far aqua regia seems to be the best cost/output option I have found yet. The questions I ask here are based solely on random ideas that occur to me that might speed up the process or increase the purity of yield.. You can say what you wish, but I will continue to ask questions even if they seem a bit stupid and/or silly. I figure it is better to ask and learn the easy way rather than to try and fail otherwise. After all,the dumbest question is not one that is asked, it is the one that was not asked.


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## jimdoc (Mar 8, 2016)

Here two days and telling us how things will be.
I don't think so.

Jim


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## UncleBenBen (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> , I do know that if you want the answers you have to ask the questions.



Nope, usually best answered by reading.



troymoore4 said:


> aqua regia seems to be the best cost/output option



Nope, depends on your material and is generally going to come in after you spend A LOT of time on other processes first to segragate and remove base metals.

Please take this from one of the newer guys to another. Slow down. Take the time to learn what procedures work for any given material. Learn why said procedures work. Learn how they work. Learn this before trying to create your own.

You can't build a house without a good foundation. Do keep that curiosity and wonder alive as you study. Who knows, once you do learn enough you may see something that countless others haven't. But without that foundation you are just stacking bricks on mud.

Learn to fly the thing before you take off in it!

Butcher's helicopter


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> With respect sir, you do not know what/how I am doing my research,nso please do not say I am not researching at all based on the questions I ask here. While I am the first to admit there's is much I don't know, I do know that if you want the answers you have to ask the questions. Had you asked me about my research I would have to!d you that so far aqua regia seems to be the best cost/output option I have found yet. The questions I ask here are based solely on random ideas that occur to me that might speed up the process or increase the purity of yield.. You can say what you wish, but I will continue to ask questions even if they seem a bit stupid and/or silly. I figure it is better to ask and learn the easy way rather than to try and fail otherwise. After all,the dumbest question is not one that is asked, it is the one that was not asked.



Actually, the saying goes, "The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked". I ask myself questions all the time, specially in regards to recovering and refining precious metals, as this is how I make a living.

Research is defined as: 



> the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.



Study is defined as: 



> the devotion of time and attention to acquiring knowledge on an academic subject, especially by means of books.



Asking questions does not mean you must ask someone else questions, as a matter of fact asking questions is part of the scientific method, which is defined as:



> a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.



Asking yourself questions, and then researching, studying, is how we logically think, and then discover the answers we seek. Before I ask any question on the forum, I first research myself. Then, if I need clarification I might ask the question here. You stated:



> The questions I ask here are based solely on random ideas



Okay, random ideas, so you are saying that your random ideas are not worth your time, effort and energy to research, yourself, to discover the answers you seek? I ask this because you also stated:



> I figure it is better to ask and learn the easy way



So you are looking for an easy way to learn the answers to your random questions that seem to not be worth your time, effort and energy. Do you understand how that might seem to be contrary to the intent of this forum? Nothing wrong asking question, but you would probably find your own answers to these questions if you just simply read what has already been posted on this forum. And it's so easy to simply pop your question into the search bar. As a matter of fact, you probably will find the answers much faster if you just simply searched for the answer first, as it's already written and archived most likely, on this site. Or if not, a simply Google search works as well.

I am not sure why you feel entitled in the way you seem to. Can you imagine what this forum might be like if everyone that ever wondered about some random idea that popped into their head, then asked those questions here instead of researching them on their own first? It would be a morass of random questions.

I am suggesting that you would serve your purpose better, much better in fact, by truly researching questions you have, before asking them, getting answers, and then asking more. Also, when asking questions that do not relate to your original post, you might do well to start a new thread. People who come after you, who do use the search function will find it far easier to find answers that have been answered in your threads, rather than mulling through the entire thread to find the clarification they seek.

If you have read very much on this forum it's also strongly suggested, many times over, to pick up a free copy of


> Refining Precious Metals Wastes by CM. Hoke


 and read it. I am suggesting you do this for these reasons. The book will answer many of the questions you might have, for example, you would know about the incarceration process, and also know that it might be applied to what you have asked in this thread. The other reason is that you would learn the terminology we use on this forum. It might seem like another language, and it might take some learning on your part but once you have read Hoke, and learned the terminology we use, you will be able to use the search function far better than not because you will know the correct terms to use to search by. If you type, for example,


> incineration electronics


, you might discover a wealth of posts on the subject, how to do it safely and properly, what mistakes to avoid, the laws that might affect you doing so, and more. Asking here will lead to many of these answers that already are archived here, and might also expose you to even more that you otherwise would not have been because you didn't ask those questions.

I am not a book, nor is anyone else that has posted in this thread. We are more than willing to help those, as is evident in post after post on this forum. But when you see the same questions over and over again posted from those who seem to believe they are entitled to answers, and then call that research as you have, well you can just imagine.

When you ask random questions that is not research, that is asking for someone to tell you because you believe it's the easy way of getting an answer. When you make it clear and evident that you are not willing to put forth the effort to search for the answers to your questions yourself, it causes those of us who might have answered very similar if not exact questions in the past to give pause and think twice about answering you.

Please, don't be lazy, really do your research and then if you have a question that has not yet been answered on this forum, and you cannot find it in a book or by using Google search, then ask us here. But in the spirit of refiners helping refiners, you just seem to be looking for someone to hold your hand and give you what you otherwise should probably earn all on your own, and easily enough at that.

Scott


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## butcher (Mar 8, 2016)

troymoore4,
You really are not learning anything with the way you are going about it now, with these random questions, even if we tried to answer them, at best each of us could spend hours typing answers that would only give you a very small portion of the whole answer, to get a better answer to your questions it takes research, in that research you will not only find the answers to that question, but information you never would think of to ask.
At best now the most we can give you is a simple answer to questions that can take books full of information to get a good understanding of.

Stop cheating yourself out of that valuable education, spend your time getting that valuable education through research of this great resource we call the forum.

Forum members will be glad to help answer your questions if they can, if you study, but without you doing research on your own, it would be difficult for us to answer those questions, you would only get a small portion of the answer, and you really would not have much understanding of the answers anyway.
When you do the research you gain an understanding, and have a background of information, so the simple answers to your questions become extremely helpful in your research.

I know nothing about biological chemistry, or medical sciences, if I joined a group of doctors and scientist in that field, and started asking question off the top of my head, not only would it be difficult for them to answer many of my questions, because I have no understanding of the chemistry or science, but they could also not spend years to explain (or educate me) with all of the background information I would need to get an true understanding or decent answer to my random questions. 
And then I would also have a very hard time understanding their answers any way.

For me to learn I would have to do my own research, get some background understanding, then perhaps I could ask intelligent questions, having some understanding of the language, and background information, so they could better help me to progress in my education in that science.


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## Harold_V (Mar 9, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> While I am the first to admit there's is much I don't know, I do know that if you want the answers you have to ask the questions.


I question if you understand how fortunate you are to not be dealing with me. Those who know of my lack of patience with readers who share your attitude most likely understand that I would have shut you down by now. 

Here, you do not ask questions when you don't understand the answers. You are advised to read. Read Hoke's book, and read the board. Read them until you understand the required procedures. Only then should you start asking questions, which will reflect the *fact* that you have done so. 

Should you fail to heed this advise, your time here will be short. Very short, indeed. 

If you choose to respond to my comments, weigh your words well. 

Harold


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## Geo (Mar 10, 2016)

The purest gold crystals are form by evaporating gold in a plasma stream and condensing it on a "target". The target is usually purified gold crystal to begin with. The process is called "sputtering". 
As far as the question of boiling gold to remove impurities, you have to keep in mind that when you melt all these metals together, it forms an alloy. Once metals are alloyed, it changes the properties of the whole mass. Melting temperatures change. Boiling points change. When dealing with electronics, it may include many different metals including semi-precious and toxic heavy metals and even exotic materials. It is not something that can be done by a hobbyist refiner.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 10, 2016)

Sputtering is not the same process as evaporating, it is using a plasma and knocking off small pieces of a material from a target to transfer it to an object, often to form a thin film.
It is possible to sputter alloys of very different metals, so this is not a refining method. Just look at the number of different alloys that can be sputtered.
https://www.americanelements.com/sputtering-targets.html

I have been looking for a cheap sputter for my electron microscope, so far I only have an evaporator... yeah, it can actually boil gold or carbon that deposits onto an object to make it conductive so I can watch it in my microscope.

Göran


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## Geo (Mar 10, 2016)

Ooops, sorry about that. When I reached for the name of what I was thinking, that's the first name that popped into my head. The name of what I'm talking about was spoke of in another topic on the forum but I don't know where it is.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 10, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> Sputtering is not the same process as evaporating, it is using a plasma and knocking off small pieces of a material from a target to transfer it to an object, often to form a thin film.
> It is possible to sputter alloys of very different metals, so this is not a refining method. Just look at the number of different alloys that can be sputtered.
> https://www.americanelements.com/sputtering-targets.html
> 
> ...



Sputtering target? I know a remarketer that gets them from time to time, he operates in Silicon Valley. What are you looking for? I have seen mostly big ones, last one a few months ago was a fairly big Pt target.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 11, 2016)

I'm not looking for a target (unless for refining :mrgreen: ) but a bench top sputter for a cheap price. Some times I browse the LabX site but it's been a while now.
The target I need is anything that works for electron microscopy, Au, Pt, Pt/Ir... noble metals basically. Targets are consumables and I feel confident that I can fabricate a target if I need it.

A big sputter would be too expensive to transport from the USA but if it fits inside a parcel then it's interesting.

The lab I got the evaporator from (free, just picking it up) contained a few extra bits. Among them a Pt target but they had already got rid of the sputter a couple of years before.

I have my eyes on a sputter at the local university, just waiting for the lab to realize they never use it any longer. But that may take several years. I got some cool equipment from them last summer though, 100A +/- 10V power supply for example.

Göran


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## troymoore4 (Mar 12, 2016)

Harold_V said:


> troymoore4 said:
> 
> 
> > While I am the first to admit there's is much I don't know, I do know that if you want the answers you have to ask the questions.
> ...


I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems. I understand things likey a bit more than you seem to expect. I understand the need for patience and proper proceedures. The processes used are quite dangerous, yes i understand that to. I haveva healthy anount of respect for the high temps and/or the corrosive and caustic chemecals that will be needed. I have ABSOLUTELY NO desire to injue someone or be injured myself so i ask questions because the answers give me more knowledge and knowledge is a key factor in any of this. I look at it from the standpoint of gaining as much knowledge as I can so that when I do start I will not make a complete moronic ass of myself. If you dissagee with/disslike me for this then perhaps you should think back to how much you knew when you first ventured into this. Nobody starts knowing everything and nobody is without their mistakes, especially when they first start something new. So if you wish to begrudge someone who only wants to have a firm as possible before they begin, then maybe you should remember when you were asking questions of those whom had more experience than you did when you first started in this. I'd rather ask what might be a dumb question and have that knowledge that to experiment with it and have it blow up in my face causing injury to myself or someone else, so you can express your displeasure all you like, I'm still going to ask questions whether they are dumb or not.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Mar 12, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems. I understand things likey a bit more than you seem to expect. I understand the need for patience and proper proceedures. The processes used are quite dangerous, yes i understand that to. I haveva healthy anount of respect for the high temps and/or the corrosive and caustic chemecals that will be needed. I have ABSOLUTELY NO desire to injue someone or be injured myself so i ask questions because the answers give me more knowledge and knowledge is a key factor in any of this. I look at it from the standpoint of gaining as much knowledge as I can so that when I do start I will not make a complete moronic ass of myself. If you dissagee with/disslike me for this then perhaps you should think back to how much you knew when you first ventured into this. Nobody starts knowing everything and nobody is without their mistakes, especially when they first start something new. So if you wish to begrudge someone who only wants to have a firm as possible before they begin, then maybe you should remember when you were asking questions of those whom had more experience than you did when you first started in this. I'd rather ask what might be a dumb question and have that knowledge that to experiment with it and have it blow up in my face causing injury to myself or someone else, so you can express your displeasure all you like, I'm still going to ask questions whether they are dumb or not.



I think perhaps you would have done better to first look at Harold's previous posts, which could have been accomplished by simply searching the forum. I don't feel I need to defend Harold as his posts, and his answers in topic discussions speak for themselves. If you would simply have read them however, you would soon realize that Harold happens to be one of those people who seem to me at least, to learn on his on with little or no help other than the books he read, and the familiarity he gained by doing as those books suggested.

If you knew about the history of refining in the United States, or the history of precious metals and those laws that used to be in place that prevented people from refining, legally, you might gain a better understanding of the time period Harold learned his trade craft, and have more respect for him prior to speaking on a subject you are obviously not aware of.

There are many others like Harold on this forum, not exactly, but who have also researched and learned on their own and then proceeded carefully with little or no help and yet have also been very successful in doing so.

I don't believe anyone who has posted on this thread has suggested that you shouldn't ask questions, even those you might think asking are dumb. Contrary to how you seem to be portraying the advice on this thread, we as a forum have been consistent in suggesting that you might serve your intent far better by first searching for the answers you seek, rather than acting as if entitled to answers to all that might capture your fancy at the time. Asking questions about processes you know nothing about, have absolutely no experience in, do not understand the terminology of only serves to expose your lack of base understanding. Doing as suggested however will empower you, lead you to the right answers without posting every whimsical imaginative thought that pops into your mind. You will understand the terms used, which will allow those who wish to help you explain things in the common way we do, and you will have a far more clear understanding of what the information being imparted, for your benefit.

I think you miss the fact that many of the people who have attempted to help you already are not paid for their help, they are not rewarded in any way except the satisfaction that might be had by helping someone understand these things better. They are not required to help you but do so out of an interest to help others, which is what this forum is about, refiners helping refiners. You are not entitled to answers contrary to how you seem to think. You have been told, consistently, several times now that you should do certain things prior to asking questions and yet still defend your belief that you should be able to willy nilly ask any question that pops into your mind. The very most important thing you can do is to follow the rules of the forum and the direction of those that know far more, and the direction of the moderators who have been entrusted to ensure that this is a repository of knowledge and help on this forum is not tainted by these types of posts, nor misinformation propagated by those who do not know or understand the procedures, processes, chemistry etc that are involved in recovering and refining, not imaginative speculation by someone who doesn't even understand the proper terminology to communicate effectively in this field.

I am not sure you will be on this forum long enough to read this, but I hope you do and understand that you have created a situation where it seems very likely to me you will soon enough, be removed from this forum and not able to interact with the very people you should be grateful you have access to if your true intent is to understand what we do here better. I am currently under the opinion that you have yet to discover how truly rare this forum is, and how incredibly important this resource is in regards to recovering and refining precious metals. I think that if you did, you would choose more carefully what you say and how you communicate, and instead of disregarding suggestions intended to help you more than you seem to understand, appreciate them and follow the good solid advice some of the best people on this forum have offered you. 

I hope you do learn, and recover from your previous statements, I hope you show more appreciation for this very special and unusual forum and it's members. I wish you the very best of luck regardless of your bad behavior and more importantly, hope you don't make a terrible mistake because you attempted something that was so far outside the way it should be done, that it causes you or someone else harm.

Scott


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## Harold_V (Mar 13, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems.


Big mistake. That, in my estimation, is not weighing one's words well. 
Here, you are expected to follow the rules of the board. One of them is that you will not post questions until you understand the answers. You will read and study, as you have been advised, so you are capable of having a constructive discussion with those who are willing to help you. You appear to me to be of the opinion that you are exempt, although I may be wrong. 

I am not willing to debate points with you. You had fair warning that you are not free to come here and shoot off your mouth. I got the message. You think of yourself as clever. I have no obligation to tolerate such behavior, and I won't. 

Scott's reply to you was everything you should have understood before posting your reply. That you don't seem to "get it" is unfortunate, as you are not going to remain a registered reader on this board. If you return under a different registration, I will ban you again, and I will report you to your ISP as being a troublemaker. 

In life, one must learn certain lessons. One of them is to not bite the hand that feeds you. 

Harold


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## mls26cwru (Mar 14, 2016)

g_axelsson said:


> I'm not looking for a target (unless for refining :mrgreen: ) but a bench top sputter for a cheap price. Some times I browse the LabX site but it's been a while now.
> The target I need is anything that works for electron microscopy, Au, Pt, Pt/Ir... noble metals basically. Targets are consumables and I feel confident that I can fabricate a target if I need it.
> 
> A big sputter would be too expensive to transport from the USA but if it fits inside a parcel then it's interesting.
> ...




This is the kind of stuff I do everyday at work... We do thin-film optical coatings (PVD for infrared optics & PECVD for infrared DLC coating) and some DLC on metallic substrates as well. I would think that any vacuum chamber could be modified to generate plasma. Ours are small, but a bit more than just bench top. For optical coatings, you need to draw a pretty serious vacuum (1.0 x 10^(-5)torr) so our machines include a mechanical pump in series with a turbo-molecular pump. On the electronics side, you need an RF power generator with a coupled matching unit... in addition to all the gas flow controllers and gauges and water cooling.

I am not sure how small some of these systems get, but I would imagine it could be shrunk to fit on a tabletop... that would be interesting to see  I am sure that for certain applications you could drop the turbo-pump as well. Then you would really be looking at small system.

Sorry, I may have gotten a bit excited... its not everyday that someone talks about the stuff I do at work  I am by no means a physicist, but if you have any questions, I can try my best to answer them


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## g_axelsson (Mar 14, 2016)

mls26cwru said:


> I am not sure how small some of these systems get, but I would imagine it could be shrunk to fit on a tabletop... that would be interesting to see  I am sure that for certain applications you could drop the turbo-pump as well. Then you would really be looking at small system.
> 
> Sorry, I may have gotten a bit excited... its not everyday that someone talks about the stuff I do at work  I am by no means a physicist, but if you have any questions, I can try my best to answer them


Something like this one... http://dentonvacuum.com/products/desktop-v-hp

At 23" and 58 kg it's bigger than the system at the university. That one is small enough that I would be able to just pick it up without problem and walk away with it.

It's more like this smaller system, a 33 cm high and 34 cm wide unit, weighing only 20 kilo.
https://www.quorumtech.com/quorum-product/sc7620-mini-sputter-coaterglow-discharge-system

My carbon evaporator on the other hand is a 200 kilo machine with a 25-30 cm (10-12") bell jar with transformers, rough vacuum pump and an oil diffusion pump to create the high vacuum needed hidden away in the cabinet below the bell jar.
Not mine, but this is how it looks... http://www.technicalsalessolutions.com/uploaded/t520317799.jpg

This is fun technology, the reason I got involved in it as a hobby. :mrgreen: 

Göran


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## mls26cwru (Mar 14, 2016)

holy crap those units are small!! I can see where you would want something like that for the small sample sizes for an electron microscope though 

My deposition chambers are huge compared to those... they have a 14" electrode alone. Our larger chamber for E-beam evaporation has five 12" platters! both have a host of equipment and cables that would make your head spin  

I have two systems that I run and maintain... every 6 months I have to tear one of them apart to the bolts for an annual cleaning... it amazing the amount of things that go into those systems. Its quite the hobby to get into


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## g_axelsson (Mar 14, 2016)

My big TEM is 1,8 tons of steel and electronics and takes samples up to 5 mm in diameter and 100 nm thick... maximum!
http://www.home.neab.net/gandalf/EM-lab/TEM100CX/

Two people can take it apart enough in a day to pack it on pallets and move it. It takes three pallets with the big parts and two full cars with all the loose bits to move.

Göran


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## Topher_osAUrus (Mar 15, 2016)

troymoore4 said:


> I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems.




I know this guy got banned already.. But, as a refining rookie myself, i hope other new people actually see this, to realize a couple key aspects of this community. I doubt the people i truly want to read this, though, actually do..because they are the ones who all get gold fever this time of year flooding the boards with idiocy... Thinking that the professionals have just blatantly been missing this mysterious and elusive, yet magical technique... ALL THESE YEARS, BETWEEN ALL THESE MINDS.. Or they want spoon fed.. Or given the keynotes and thats it... Sorry, but that isnt how this works, or how anything should.. You going to take a flight and go up to the crew and say "hey...so, your fuel works...but, i got this old newspaper i put in a blender with some cat piss and kerosene... Youtube said it would work, so, Im just letting you know that THAT is how it should and will be done on my flight..MMMKAY?"...

I read this forum for 5 months before i joined, and that was just so i could view picture attachments, as i had got a pdf copy of hoke from an acquaintance. I didn't post anything, until i was contributing. ...it wasnt much, but still better than keeping my hands help open.. And whenever sustenance is given, your cup suddenly becomes full and what you so eagerly wanted is tossed out.. Read Hoke..

Read Hoke....just do it... Because one day, you new people will not only give us rookie refiners a bad rap, indefinitely.. But you will get registration closed... Or pro's leaving bc we are beyond help.. Or have sooo much stupid stuff on the boards, that maybe 1 day out of 3, something of substance MIGHT be posted..

READ HOKE

SHE TAUGHT ME EVERYTHING I WANTED TO KNOW AND MORE...SERIOUSLY NEW GUYS READ HER WONDERFUL WORK. I initially got in both feet first, and landed in waist high quicksand mixed with b.s. from youtube.. I am not an idiot, so i quickly picked up on the fact, that, this is a science, ...its a discipline... Its an art.. And its a puzzle. One you must be knowledgable and apt enough to solve yourself...as EVERY lot refined is different.

Every new person that comes on board, should be thanking their holy stars that this forum is open registration.. And doesnt have a membership fee... Or ANY OTHER FORCED PREREQUISITES...it is just simply asked that you read a few guides, a book or two, glance at some pdfs, do acquaintance experiments, GET FAMILIAR with whats what... So the people who have been doing this for ages, ARENT, explaining to you for the trillionth time, why you need to incinerate, or not, or why you heat and dont boil, or ANY of the TRILLION other idiosyncrasies and nuances of this profession/hobby.

You being here is a privilege. 

Point.blank.period.

So, why would anyone disrespect the members here by not doing the few things so easily asked of you? 

Why are you even here? TRULY here? To join a community of brilliant men, who will borderline give away proprietary trade secrets?... I literally have 6 notebooks FILLED with superb notes from our fearless (take-no-gruff) leaders... Specifically, the threads where the pro's are talking to one another and not to idiots like me. Its beyond beautiful... And

1. This is not a chat room.. I am a child of the technology age.. I grew up playing computer games.. (they were just words though... So, maybe the techno-era needs more subdivisions...i sure didnt have a tablet at 3 years old like my son does..) But, even being apart of your stupid generation (sortof), we are a different breed...as i want to have the knowledge myself, so i can successfully share it to those who truly seek wisdom...

2. See #1...this isnt a chat room... Think of it more as a living library for refining, that is constantly evolving... Stop mucking up its gene pool..

3. Lose the entitlement... If you are wrong in a post, and corrected... Dont get pissy, SAY THANK YOU...for without that insight, you would undoubtedly be stuck in limbo,...probably even unable to even tie your shoes correctly.

4.do actual research... Not because you have to fix an error, but because you want to know how to prevent one, or stear clear of one.

5.give back... I mentioned this being a community earlier... Not very many communities succeed if everyone doesnt play their part.


Im sorry for the long winded reply to a banned guy... But, this kind of riff raff is very disruptive for those of us here to actually learn this coveted craft. 

I usually just close out the window and go on to the next thread, but, the microscope peaked my interest. So, sorry to fill it with more trash... But, heres a good tip for new people...

When you go to google in the search bar type this (verbatim minus "s..obviously...) 

"Site:www.goldrefiningforum.com xxxxxxxx" (replace the xxxxx with whatever retarded question you may have.. It will search JUST this site.. IT HELPS because the advanced search up top can get messy...Why you mught ask?...THATS IT RIGHT THERE....YOU ASKING...and asking...and asking... )

Again... Sorry for that.. But, for the love of all that is holy... Do YOUR due diligence... 

GET EDUCATED


you are giving all of us new people a bad name..


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## blackwolf365 (Jul 19, 2019)

what ever happened to that guy? he still banned?


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## anachronism (Jul 20, 2019)

blackwolf365 said:


> what ever happened to that guy? he still banned?



Don't know, don't care. More important things to think about. 

Jon


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## nickvc (Jul 20, 2019)

Oh yes he’s still banned.
If you read the whole thread it shows the attitude of the active forum members, we advise everyone to read and study so stupid questions don’t keep been asked and answers when given are understood, no one here is paid to answer questions so if members patience wears thin then you will get no help or very short pointed answers that you may not appreciate.
There is more information here, from some of the worlds best recovery and refining experts, than you could read in a year and the best news is it’s free, all you have to do is read and study to access all that knowledge.


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