# using AP method for gold filled



## DylanDownright84 (Apr 20, 2017)

Started the AP process on some gold filled scrap on the 15, April 17 and it's been working like a charm! No idea as to what ratio of gold filled it is though, but I started off with a mixture of 1/4 cup of Hcl and 1/8 cup of H2o2 just barely covering the 44g of thin gold filled scrap, covered it loosely with the jar lid and let it go to work. I stirred and agitated it a few times a day, adding a tbsp of hydrogen peroxide daily to get the mix back to a dark emerald green, taking notes as I went along. Within a few days I noticed tiny, tiny bits of gold floating in the mixture as well as the mix being very dark (like dark coffee) as well as a grayish type of sediment settling at the bottom. I'd also put the glass jar on a hot plate set to "low" using a small, shallow pan filled with damp sand so the jar wouldn't be heated directly by the hot plate. I'd let it warm till I started seeing light "steam" then turn it off and stir it quite a few times. I also would add a tbsp of Hcl on occasion, but from what I've read on here I tried to keep the mix fueled with fresh H2o2 to keep it close to an emerald green. The gold seems to be separating surprisingly well, but there's a very good amount of the gray sediment mixed in with it and the gold particles are too small to be able to use the strainers I have. I decided to filter some of it using a coffee filter and small funnel, but even after a dozen washes using Hcl, warm Hcl, water, and boiling water the gray sediment remains. Finally I folded up the filter and incinerated it in a crucible (partly out of frustration and also out of curiosity) and then put the charred leavings in a small jar for later. Is this sediment silver? Or do I need to add more Hcl to disolve it? I've still got a few days left till my gold filled scrap is done soaking and I want to be able to get as much clean gold as possible. Worst case scenario I'll just end up having a bunch of coffee filters with the gold and sludge mixed in I suppose. I've seen videos and read about people who disolve their gold, filters and all into a Hcl/Cl mix then precipitate. This being only my 2nd attempt at this process, would it be possible to dissolve my filters the same way even though it has that gray sludge mixed with the gold? If it's tin it should be washed out by the Hcl, right? I picked up some amazing info through this forum and Hoke's book and need to read it again obviously, but feel as if I'm missing something. Also, the current batch of GF I'm doing stays quite dark even after adding H2o2. Any ideas or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone! Much love!


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 21, 2017)

Sulphuric? Hot sulphuric?


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## Shark (Apr 21, 2017)

Not to sound harsh, but I wouldn't recommend strong sulfuric to someone that is just getting started, and that would go double about using it hot. That stuff is dangerous and even more so when heated. 

Gold filled in AP isn't the best choice but if you do it that way, you almost have to use a large volume of it for it to work reasonably well. Also find yourself an air pump. The kind used in fish aquariums will work for small batch's. If that is a quart jar your using, you need a bigger container. The air pump will also cause tiny droplets to fly up and out of a small container. I would use a five gallon bucket with a lid with a small air hole so it doesn't build up pressure. Think about a minimum of 1/2 gallon of AP. Much less and it mucks up pretty quick. Maybe even put a smaller container of AP inside the bigger bucket. 

While that is slowly working, try reading up on the methods and when to use them. the only time I ran gold filled in AP I dropped a small handful of rings in 4 gallons of AP and left them for three month's before checking on them again. That really didn't give me much in the way of learning how quick it will work.


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## Shark (Apr 21, 2017)

While this isn't using gold filled you can see the use of an air pump on fingers. This was videoed after 24 hours in a 1500Ml glass container. Using the same air pump in the four gallon AP bucket isn't as fast. 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poyeAtx1o9c[/youtube]


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## nickvc (Apr 21, 2017)

You are way over using the peroxide, remember it is an oxidiser, and it will dissolve gold.
While never having used AP I believe that you add more HCl to keep it working once you have base metals in solution so make sure to test your solutions.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 21, 2017)

Hydrogen peroxide will not only oxidize Cu(I) into Cu(II) but also tin(II) chloride into higher oxidation state. I think a lot of that gray gunk is tin in various states of oxides and hydroxides.

Göran


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 21, 2017)

Thanks fellas! From what I've read some people seem to add more peroxide as they go along and some add more Hcl. I'll take another step back and let it do its thing for the coming week. Wish I could take a better picture for you guys. There's quite a bit of gold floating in the mixture after just 6 days now, but it's tiny particles. I'll keep looking for more threads on the matter. Stumbled across a pdf by lazersteve and a few others from this very forum discussing the process so I downloaded it. Thanks again guys. I'll post an update soon hopefully!


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## Geo (Apr 21, 2017)

True gold filled is a "biscuit" of gold over silver. Silver is used so that when the gold does wear through, the silver will not stain the skin green. As with any other PM bearing material, there are other metals involved but true "gold filled" will be gold over silver. If it is gold over copper, it is not gold filled. It can have other names such as RGP or HGE but it is not gold filled. AP should not effect the silver biscuit by much if at all. AP will not remove the silver from the gold. You will still have to deal with the silver.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 21, 2017)

I had the understanding that goldfilled, was gold that is filled with base metal. Even copper. 

They used silver for the base metal during the war time when copper was restricted, and silver was then only seen as a monetary metal, not industrial one. Goldfilled can be on copper, stainless, silver, whatever. It is goldfilled when it is 1/20th the weight or more in gold (also 1/10, 1/5th). They still use silver as the core for the "higher end" goldfilled stuff. But if its marked gf, or goldfilled, it IS 1/20. If it is a higher ratio, it will be marked as such.

Rgp is either 1/30 or 1/40 total weight in gold
HGE is even less

Mrs Hoke covered that in her testing book.


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## Geo (Apr 21, 2017)

Gold filled is still gold over silver today.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 21, 2017)

Yes, but goldfilled isnt exclusively over silver.
Just because it is gold over stainless or copper, doesn't mean it isnt goldfilled. It's still goldfilled.


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## upcyclist (Apr 21, 2017)

Are you confusing gold filled with vermeil? Vermeil is specifically gold plating over silver. Most gold filled I see is bonded to brass for the color similarity.

Edit: Ah, from the Wikipedia article on gold-filled jewelry: "Some products are made using sterling silver as the base, although this more expensive version is not common today."


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## nickvc (Apr 21, 2017)

Gold filled or as we call it on our side of the pond rolled gold is exactly as our term suggests, it's a layer of a karat alloy over base metal, usually it's heat bonded as a solid block and rolled or a base metal wire is inserted into a karat alloy tube and drawn down, silver may well be in the gold alloy but it is not the base to the karat layer, that is termed gold over silver a totally different product.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 21, 2017)

I spent many years making jewelry from 1/20-12K gold filled wire. The base metal was a brass alloy so that when the gold wore off it was similar in color. The FTC provides the definitions used for precious metals in the U.S.


> As used in these guides, the term quality mark means any letter, figure, numeral, symbol, sign, word, or term, or any combination thereof, that has been stamped, embossed, inscribed, or otherwise placed on any industry product and which indicates or suggests that any such product is composed throughout of any precious metal or any precious metal alloy or has a surface or surfaces on which there has been plated or deposited any precious metal or precious metal alloy. Included are the words “gold,” “karat,” “carat,” “silver,” “sterling,” “vermeil,” “platinum,” “iridium,” “palladium,” “ruthenium,” “rhodium,” or “osmium,” or any abbreviations thereof, whether used alone or in conjunction with the words “filled,” “plated,” “overlay,” or “electroplated,” or any abbreviations thereof. Quality markings include those in which the words or terms “gold,” “karat,” “silver,” “vermeil,” “platinum” (or platinum group metals), or their abbreviations are included, either separately or as suffixes, prefixes, or syllables.





> §23.5 Misuse of the word “vermeil.“
> (a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that an industry product is “vermeil” if such mark or description misrepresents the product’s true composition.
> (b) An industry product may be described or marked as “vermeil” if it consists of a base of sterling silver coated or plated on all significant surfaces with gold, or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness, that is of substantial thickness7and a minimum thickness throughout equivalent to two and one half (2 1/2) microns (or approximately 100/1,000,000ths of an inch) of fine gold.
> Note 1 to §23.5:It is unfair or deceptive to use the term “vermeil” to describe a product in which the sterling silver has been covered with a base metal (such as nickel) plated with gold unless there is a disclosure that the sterling silver is covered with a base metal that is plated with gold.
> Note 2 to §23.5:Exemptions recognized in the assay of gold filled, gold overlay, and rolled gold plate industry products are listed in the appendix.





> Gold Filled, Gold Overlay, Rolled Gold Plate
> •(5) Use of the terms “Gold Filled,” “Rolled Gold Plate,” “Rolled Gold Plated,” “Gold Overlay,” or any abbreviation to describe all or part of an industry product unless such product or part contains a surface-plating of gold alloy applied by a mechanical process and of such thickness and extent of surface coverage that reasonable durability is assured, and unless the term is immediately preceded by a correct designation of the karat fineness of the alloy that is of at least equal conspicuousness as the term used.





> (3) An industry product or part thereof on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces by soldering, brazing, welding, or other mechanical means, a plating of gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness and of substantial thickness may be marked or described as “Gold Filled,” “Gold Overlay,” “Rolled Gold Plate” or an adequate abbreviation, when such plating constitutes at least 1/20th of the weight of the metal in the entire article and when the term is immediately preceded by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (for example, “14 Karat Gold Filled,” “14 Kt. Gold Filled,” “14 Kt. G.F.,” “14 Kt. Gold Overlay,” or “14K. R.G.P.”).
> *When conforming to all such requirements except the specified minimum of 1/20th of the weight of the metal in the entire article, the terms “Gold Overlay” and “Rolled Gold Plate” may be used when the karat fineness designation is immediately preceded by a fraction accurately disclosing the portion of the weight of the metal in the entire article accounted for by the plating, and when such fraction is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (for example, “1/40th 12 Kt. Rolled Gold Plate” or “1/40 12 Kt. R.G.P.”).*


I've done a fair amount of snipping to try to keep this manageable. I'm attaching the original document I'm quoting. I believe I found this on the Jewelers Vigilance Committee's web site.
Dave


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 21, 2017)

Finally!!! Got a little something to show for my efforts. I attached a pic of the filled stuff I was given to play with. He said it was filled so that's all I had to go by. He does own and run a lapidary shop and is extremely knowledgeable in that area, so maybe it's filled...??? Lol


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## Palladium (Apr 21, 2017)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I spent many years making jewelry from 1/20-12K gold filled wire. The base metal was a brass alloy so that when the gold wore off it was similar in color. The FTC provides the definitions used for precious metals in the U.S.
> 
> 
> > As used in these guides, the term quality mark means any letter, figure, numeral, symbol, sign, word, or term, or any combination thereof, that has been stamped, embossed, inscribed, or otherwise placed on any industry product and which indicates or suggests that any such product is composed throughout of any precious metal or any precious metal alloy or has a surface or surfaces on which there has been plated or deposited any precious metal or precious metal alloy. Included are the words “gold,” “karat,” “carat,” “silver,” “sterling,” “vermeil,” “platinum,” “iridium,” “palladium,” “ruthenium,” “rhodium,” or “osmium,” or any abbreviations thereof, whether used alone or in conjunction with the words “filled,” “plated,” “overlay,” or “electroplated,” or any abbreviations thereof. Quality markings include those in which the words or terms “gold,” “karat,” “silver,” “vermeil,” “platinum” (or platinum group metals), or their abbreviations are included, either separately or as suffixes, prefixes, or syllables.
> ...



:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 21, 2017)

Here's the gold filled stuff as of now. In AP, with bubbler, 8 days into the process.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 21, 2017)

Thanks for the ridiculously immense amount of info guys! I just incinerated my filters and am about to wash the leftovers with hot Hcl then wash. This is my first time attempting the Hcl/Cl method so wish me luck! Doing it outside, gloves, ventilator, goggles, rabbits foot, hopes and dreams, and patience. If anyone wants to chime in and give pointers or constructive criticism, feel free.


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## Geo (Apr 22, 2017)

I apologize about creating a disturbance. I am old fashioned and use the terms given when I was in my twenties. From the time I knew what gold filled was, I only acted on material that was gold over silver. Anything else was considered fake even by gold filled standards. The wiki example is pretty much the philosophy I went by where only vintage gold filled was true gold filled. The industry has changed and they have obviously lowered their standards quite a bit. I don't mean to say that it is wrong or that anyone else is wrong. I didn't even mean to say that only gold over silver was the only true gold filled, but in my opinion, it is the only thing I will accept as true gold filled. It must be marked 1/20 14KGF or similar marking. Just 14KGF or GF is not a true mark denoting gold filled. It must have content and Karat before I accept it as true gold filled.


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## butcher (Apr 22, 2017)

Gold especially finely divided, can go up in a chloride cloud of smoke (salts of copper chloride, sodium chloride)...


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## nickvc (Apr 22, 2017)

If any of the foils are thick you may struggle to dissolve them with HCl / Cl so make sure to keep your solution well stirred after adding the Cl exposing the foils to the chlorine produced.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 22, 2017)

I ran out of daylight so I just kept washing it. Hey Geo, did you see the pic I posted of the gold stuff in the pyrex bowl? That's what I've been soaking for 9 days now. I read what you posted about gold filled, but I still couldn't tell what it is exactly. Honestly, it looks like gold over copper possibly as of what I've been seeing since the gold started to separate. I called the guy this morning to see if he had more info on maybe what type of "gold filled" it might be and he just said it's "gold filled." And I'm not educated enough on the gold filled types to know what is what, but I'm gonna try and get some better pics today for you guys, if you think pics might help in figuring it out.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 22, 2017)

Here's some pics of me finishing up the small batch of fingers this morning. Did Hcl/Cl, let it work for a while, stirred it vigorously, inspected for undissolved gold then filtered. Came out nice and golden then I added SMB and here is where I'm at. It's sitting in the shed settling. Fingers crossed. Hoping I get a little something to show you guys after its done settling.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 22, 2017)

How "small" of a batch?

Fingers are good to learn with, but, dont lose the small bb of gold while trying to photograph it. :wink:


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 22, 2017)

Haha Topher, I'll probably wait till the very end after its melted and inside a small jar before I show you guys. It's been settling for about 2 hours now. There's a fine brown sediment spread across the bottom of the jar then there's a tiny amount of black looking sediment starting to settle on the opposite side I have the jar tilted. So do I filter it again at the end when it's all settled then melt? This is my first time doing the entire process so I'm waiting for something to go wrong.


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## glorycloud (Apr 22, 2017)

Let it settle overnight. Patience is a virtue or so I have heard. 8)


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 22, 2017)

Its best to leave the powder in the beaker until its dried and going in the melt dish.

Decanting works, but you will inevitably dump a bit of powder with the barren solution. I dont like to pour powder into a filter and melt with the paper, as the ash from the filter can carry some gold away with it. So, I tend to siphon off the solution. 

Then begin the wash and rinse procedure. Redissolve, re precipitate, and rewash and rinse. Wash with hcl and water (alternating) until it is clear in color. Water wash until neutral ph. 
You will begin to notice, as the gold cleans up, it will begin to quickly settle and readily agglomerate.

Then dry slowly so it doesn't bump out of the beaker. After washing in HCl you will notice the color lighten up significantly. The second dissolve and precipitation ensures any impurities that didn't get washed out, stay in solution. (so long as you dont overdose with the smb)

Everything in this gig is an artform, and on this forum we have everyone from picasso, to Michelangelo, even Da Vinci. The best part, is these artists have shared their techniques with fools like me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Look up "Harolds wash" procedure, and then "high purity gold" by Lou. They are very similar, but also quite different. Either or will suffice just fine for your bit of gold.

Melting is a whole other discipline in its own right.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 22, 2017)

I really appreciate your help, Topher! I did plan on leaving it over night to settle with hopes I'll wake up to a tiny little pile in the jar and to hopefully be able to pour off as much liquid as possible without making another sludgy solution with a filter in it. I'll update tomorrow when I start the process over. You guys are awesome, thanks a bunch!


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 23, 2017)

Here's the precipitation jar as of now. I also just read Harold's post about washing and I'm going to give it a go, but I'm gonna wait till I have more gold to wash. The precipitation jar looks like it need more time to settle. It looks like there's still a decent little bit of brown haze in my solution, or is that to be expected? Also, I read that sometimes a 2nd drop can be done to precipitate more gold. Considering that I'm only dealing with a minute amount of gold, I don't think it would help, or am I wrong? So far I'm pretty happy with the results of my very first full AP trial with e-scrap. The entire bottom of the jar still has a thin layer of brown sediment spread across it though. Is that also to be expected along with the fine black powder that's collected on the side I've tilted the jar on? So far the steps I've read to take after what I've done so far is to decant and collect. I don't want to possibly waste anything so I'm gonna continue to let it settle and do some more research in the meanwhile.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 23, 2017)

I definitely wouldn't do the wash routine in that glass. Thermal shock will shatter that thing and you will be scrambling to pick up gold that looks like dirt, mixed with dirt.

And a second drop, to drop MORE gold? ..that will never happen, unless i misunderstood you. But, the second refine and drop would probably leave less powder than the first because of the impurities removed. Making more gold than there really is, from another precipitation cant happen. That's borderline alchemy talk.


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## anachronism (Apr 23, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> Here's the precipitation jar as of now. I also just read Harold's post about washing and I'm going to give it a go, but I'm gonna wait till I have more gold to wash.
> 
> That's good thinking Dylan. Build yourself a nice amount if you have access to the raw materials before cleaning it up. It's far more efficient in the long run.
> 
> ...


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 23, 2017)

Anachronism, thank you! Your guidance is much appreciated, sir. Feels like I'm learning to ride a bike for the first time and you guys are helping me along. Learning to use the search engines properly has also helped a great deal also. With everything going on with these trials I forgot one important and necessary tool, stannous chloride. So until my bottle of the stuff gets here I won't be moving forward any further with the process. Such a noob mistake. Suppose it's expected in the midst of my excitement. It's hard to convey how grateful I am to you guys in your advice, guidance, and patience with me. I'll post updates as they come. Hope everyone is having a great weekend. Also, I'm looking into possibly taking a course or two on chemistry by way of an online education or a local institution to further my understanding of all this a little better. Since I still have most of my GI Bill left it won't cost me anything. Again, thanks everyone!


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 24, 2017)

Just to be clear on what I've read and to make sure I'm understanding this better. So the black and brown looking precipitant is the gold? Android I save both? I still have it settling and the haze brown particles still haven't fully settled. Tomorrow at noon will make for a full 48 hours since first letting it settle. I planned on just decanting then cooking off the rest amd storing the powder until I get enough to make doing Harold's wash worth while. Just wanna make sure I have all my bases covered here since this is my very first an virgin attempt at completing this entire process.


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## LynchMob (Apr 24, 2017)

Have you tested the solution (stannous)? How much SMB did you use? I'd collect all solids and process again to remove impurities. Never be disappointed with your results.....learn from them. This forum is packed full of priceless information from some of the smartest people in the field. We should all feel very, very lucky to have this luxury. After reading this forum for many years I've realized how little I truly know. Good luck in your future endeavors!


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## upcyclist (Apr 24, 2017)

Geo said:


> It must be marked 1/20 14KGF or similar marking. Just 14KGF or GF is not a true mark denoting gold filled. It must have content and Karat before I accept it as true gold filled.


That part I definitely agree with (and no worries on the rest). It's gotta have the fraction, [stt]at least in the U.S.[/stt]

Sometimes jewelers and jewelry supply places will abbreviate it (e.g., '14/20' for '1/20th 14K gold filled'), but I'm not sure I've ever seen that on a finished piece, only raw sheet & wire. [stt]Which is good, because the FTC marking regs say that ain't good enough [/stt]
_
Edit: I looked at the FTC regs again. No fraction is required that I can see. If it's at least 1/20th of 10K, it's gold-filled. I suppose manufacturers want it known when there's more._


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## Tndavid (Apr 24, 2017)

Hey Dylan, have you thought about making you own stannous? Very very simple.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 24, 2017)

upcyclist said:


> That part I definitely agree with (and no worries on the rest). It's gotta have the fraction, [stt]at least in the U.S.[/stt]
> 
> Edit: I looked at the FTC regs again. No fraction is required that I can see. If it's at least 1/20th of 10K, it's gold-filled. I suppose manufacturers want it known when there's more.[/i]



I have came across a lot of stuff that was simply marked 14kgf
Or 10k gf
I always, ALWAYS, went under the assumption (when buying it) that it was the bare minimum % to be considered goldfill-5%-
Every time it is a higher fraction, they are pretty proud to stamp that in there so it is known. I take pictures of everything I run, I will see if I can dig up some examples I recently ran that are on my phone still. 

Honestly though, so long as its all marked gf or higher fractions, it just goes in the beaker and gets dissolved with nitric, playing the "guessing game" for yield with goldfill is a futile endeavour, since the wear has an extreme outcome on yield.

So long as it doesn't have HGE on it, its subjected to nitric :twisted:


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## upcyclist (Apr 24, 2017)

Yup, that's my plan--assume it's minimum (1/20), process it all the same way. Hooray for gradual additions of nitric.

Unless for some reason I run out of first-run silver before I get a big enough batch of GF to run. Then I'll inquart with it. It's really not a change in chemistry or in how much nitric I'll need. I've been buying a fair amount of coin silver lately, though, so I don't think my "silver that needs to be inquarted" pile will be getting smaller any time soon. I could also just do a straight silver run, of course, but I'd rather do it as part of a karat gold run.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 24, 2017)

Yep, best way to do it really.
Silver needing recovered?
Gold needing inquarted?
Two birds with one stone. Saving you time and money, money, money from the nitric you will save taking the silver into solution once.

Ive never done as Hoke recommends though, using goldfill to inquart karat, but I have no reason to doubt its functionality. I just prefer to use coin silver or sterling spoons. Leaving the goldfill to be run on its own.

What can I say, I like to see if the goldfill articles leave me foils or flakes, which is a good indicator of how much wear and tear they enountered in their lifetime.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 24, 2017)

If you're talking about silver coins, I never process them, as they are self assaying. If it's coin silver, as in coin silver spoons etc., then use them to inquart.

Silver has two advantages when inquarting. First it requires less nitric than copper, but if you're dissolving the base metal in nitric anyway there's no loss. Second, if there is any platinum involved, the silver will carry some of it through in the nitric digest to be caught in the cell slimes.

Dave


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## upcyclist (Apr 24, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> Ive never done as Hoke recommends though, using goldfill to inquart karat, but I have no reason to doubt its functionality. I just prefer to use coin silver or sterling spoons. Leaving the goldfill to be run on its own.


I figure it really doesn't make much difference. Since I rarely come across old 1/10 stuff, my GF is generally either 12/20 or 14/20. In Karat terms, that's 0.6-0.7K, so it won't affect much if my inquarted gold is 6.7K instead of 6K (i.e., 28% gold alloy instead of 25%). Foils are pretty, but so is that final button 

Oh, and inquarting with it also cuts down on the amount I need to build up before it's worth processing


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 24, 2017)

Hey guys! There's a pic of the gold filled scrap on page 1 of this thread. It's sitting in a pyrex bowl. It's still in the AP mix, 9 days now and it's looking great. Added more peroxide and it seemed to clear up alot of the gray sludge that was mixed in. The bubbler run about 8 hours a day as well. I started looking up stannous recipes last night, but fell asleep. Gonna get back to researching again tonight when I have some quiet time. I'm not in a rush at all. Just excited to keep learning. The small batch of e-scrap I processed over the weekend is finished, but is still settling. See previous pics I posted. There's a thick brown layer on the bottom of the jar now along with black particles settled to one side. Plan is to decant, collect and save till I have more to make the 2nd refine/cleaning worth the time. Planned on using "Harold's wash" once I have a good enough amount. I'll post pics of the gold filled jar soon.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 24, 2017)

Here's the gold filled stuff in AP as of today, 24 April, 2017. It's coming along for sure, but some of it doesn't even look like it's been touched. Thinking about doing a filtering, washing, then putting the stubborn bits back in and processing the bits that are ready. The pictures don't show it all by any means, but there's a good amount of gold particles in there. Washing will take some time for sure. The gold particles are tiny.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 24, 2017)

My body ache's from the tragedy you will encounter using those dishes!

A side note, its really best to just wait to process it all together, so you don't create more and more waste while taking each little bit of the lot in solution, bit by bit. You are undoubtedly going to use too much acid to dissolve the foils (all new people do, heck, i still do sometimes). Especially, if you aren't heating it. And im praying to the gods of gold that you dont heat the reaction in those vessels. It can be catastrophic.

Im honestly quite surprised the goldfill is going along so well in a copper chloride leach. Are the foils able to be crunched with a glass rod? Do they float around the solution with a brisk stir?
It looks like a lot of the stuff in the spoon is still pretty solid. But, hard to tell really.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 24, 2017)

I have an old note 3 phone and the camera isn't the best. I haven't used heat on the jar with the filled stuff except for letting it sit in the sun, but it's been raining for 3 days here. The air bubbler has really helped the most I think. It's all taking place in a quart mason jar and is just over half way full of AP. I got an earthenware crock today for a few bucks at goodwill and will be transferring the entire mix to that jar tomorrow so I can put it on the hotplate finally. Since the pics I'm taking just suck, I'll try taking a short video for you and see if it comes out better. It's still a nice dark emerald green and I haven't added anything to it for almost a week now. The small batch of e-scrap is still settling for the 3rd day now haha. Any suggestions on how to get better pics for you guys? It's just been gross here with no sunlight so I'm stuck using my shop light and headlamps for light.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 24, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> I got an earthenware crock today for a few bucks at goodwill and will be transferring the entire mix to that jar tomorrow so I can put it on the hotplate finally.



You are putting an earthenware crock, on a hot plate?

Or you mean you have a crockpot that you will be using to heat?

The former will be a disaster, the latter would be fine.
Earthenware crock dishes arent really meant to take that much direct heat from one localized spot. It will break. Crockpots are different, the coils of wire heat it evenly (and slowly)throughout the dish, so fractures dont happen often. But, if you put that thing on a hot plate, you're going to have a bad time.

You should have looked for an old coffee pot and a corningware dish at goodwill. You will spend maybe a dollar or two on the coffee pot, and at most 5 or 6 dollars on the corningware pyroceram. If you really cannot find corningware locally, pm me your address and I will mail you one. I have plenty.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 25, 2017)

Heu Topher, it's a small black crock pot. 2 quart size, but I picked up 3 coffee pots with it and will be transferring the mix to one of those instead. Should be able to get you some better pics as well as soon as I'm done. Coffee pots have measurement lines in cups too which will help. I'll post an update in a bit. Thanks buddy!


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 25, 2017)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=23620

Sounds like all you need to get you goin, safely, is one of those then. You will be happy if the ish hits the fan, and you have one.


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## upcyclist (Apr 25, 2017)

I think it was mentioned before on this thread, but if not, it's certainly in other threads on using a copper chloride (what you call AP) leach: When your leach stalls, don't add more peroxide, add more HCl. You already have a bubbler adding oxidant (oxygen). Adding more oxidant will increase the odds that you're dissolving gold, making your particles smaller, assuming it cements back out.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 25, 2017)

Here's some pics from 5 minutes ago. Has just shy of 4 cups total mix in the pot. It's on low heat sitting ontop of a small baking pan filled with damp sand.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 25, 2017)

Heating AP increases the odds that some gold will dissolve, not a big deal really, as the gold will cement back onto the base metal that remains. But, be diligent and test with stannous. Also, do as upcyclist suggests, and don't add any more peroxide, just small additions of HCl.

You should make some stannous. Lead free solder, or lead free fishing weights and HCl are all you need. Heck, you can even use a pewter bowl or escrap solder to make stannous if you're in a pinch. But, it IS a necessity. It is the eyes of the refiner. Since there are several things that can make an acid solution yellow, orange, or reddish. Stannous is needed to tell if it is one of the precious metals in solution making those colors, or if its iron, silver chloride, molybdenum, or whatever. Guessing will only get you in trouble.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 25, 2017)

This is where my patience pays off. I'm flat broke till Friday and I have an order of stannous granules just ready to purchase. The recipe I read requires pure tin (shot, powder, solder), distilled water, Hcl, and stannous granules. I'd definitely be interested in trying a cheaper alternative. Everytime I attempt or do something in regards to this stuff is my first time doing it so I wanna get it right if I can haha. I know coffee pots can take some heat, but I just have a light steam coming out of it. Don't really wanna boil Hcl in the coffee pot.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 25, 2017)

Was also thinking about filtering and washing the gold that's separated and then just putting the stubborn bits back in the mix.


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## anachronism (Apr 25, 2017)

Dylan whilst it's been mentioned in a lot of places on the forum it bears writing again. Tinned solder from your hardware store- a few bucks a roll. Add some to HCl and you're good. Make sure you get the one with tin in it. Roll will last you a lifetime. 

Jon.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 25, 2017)

Yes sir! Getting some Friday if not before then. And it's just Hcl and tin, correct? The recipe I read calls for actual stannous granules.


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## Shark (Apr 25, 2017)

Might try wheel weights from a tire shop. Some of the newer ones are steel but several had tin in them as lead was being fazed out. If using fishing weights be sure they are the tin ones and not the steel variety (usually the larger sizes are steel (in the eco friendly type).


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## jimdoc (Apr 25, 2017)

Shark said:


> Might try wheel weights from a tire shop. Some of the newer ones are steel but several had tin in them as lead was being fazed out. If using fishing weights be sure they are the tin ones and not the steel variety (usually the larger sizes are steel (in the eco friendly type).



Actually they are probably zinc. Tin would be highly sought after by ammo reloaders, just like the lead ones.

edit to include link;
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?139839-Guide-to-Hand-Sorting-Wheel-Weights


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 25, 2017)

I have a bunch of 20ga bird shot shells, but have no idea what the composition is of the shot.


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## Shark (Apr 25, 2017)

Thanks Jim. I heated a few in my pot just now and it isn't tin. It melts easier than tin. Then again my pot has sit for so long no telling what kind of trash is in it now.


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## anachronism (Apr 25, 2017)

Dylan go for the tinned solder mate. You know what you're getting  

Shark and Jim are also quite correct in what they are saying but you might as well get the tin 8)


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 25, 2017)

Will do! Gonna pick up a roll tomorrow after my doctors appointment. Gonna look up stannous recipes when I get home. If I can make stannous with just tin and Hcl, it beats out the other recipe I studied.


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## anachronism (Apr 25, 2017)

You can and it will. Enjoy.


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## Shark (Apr 25, 2017)

I have a one pound roll of tin solder that I have been using for around 4 years. At the current rate of use I will never need another roll. And yes, the formula is that simple. I do warm mine a bit to get it started, but I don't think it is necessary, just the way I have always done it.


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## Geo (Apr 26, 2017)

This is my video on making stannous chloride with tin solder.

https://youtu.be/659G75Kc3F0


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 26, 2017)

Thanks everyone! and thanks Geo! I need to get a small amount of a gold rich solution, auric acid or gold chloride? I don't have any pure gold to make my own, so I'm going to search on here to see what's available to me. Gonna need a baseline solution to test my own mixtures.


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## anachronism (Apr 26, 2017)

Doesn't need to be gold "rich" it just has to be clearly pregnant. I took a small vial from a batch of AR from a small processor refine. i.e. Clean yellow AR. That small vial hardly EVER gets used and it's not going to evaporate so I haven't lost anything. 

You only ever need to double check your stannous solution if something doesn't seem "quite right" with results your getting, and the more you refine, the less you'll be in that situation. 

Jon


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 26, 2017)

Well that makes me feel a bit better. As soon as I can get some nitric I'll try my hand at making some. Also, I have a tin of crosman pellets made of lead. Since lead has tin in it, can I use the pellets made of lead to make stannous chloride? Ok, now I'm reading that there's no tin in my pellets. Stupid Internet :roll: 

Just gonna go the safe route and pick up the tin solder this afternoon from home depot and make some stannous with that.


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## upcyclist (Apr 26, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> Just gonna go the safe route and pick up the tin solder this afternoon from home depot and make some stannous with that.


I got some lead-free sinkers from Walmart (fishing section of course), and they worked beautifully. I let the reaction go to completion (be sure to let it vent--don't just seal your bottle as soon as you add the two ingredients), then dropped another sinker in to keep excess tin in there.


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## anachronism (Apr 26, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> Just gonna go the safe route and pick up the tin solder this afternoon from home depot and make some stannous with that.



Yes you do that. Get on with it. It'll all be ok in the end I promise. 8) 8) 8)


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## Tndavid (Apr 26, 2017)

Tin solder. Please!! :shock:


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 26, 2017)

Just checked on the gold filled scrap in the coffees pot after leaving it on low heat for a few hours. And everything is floating and there's no more stubborn pieces left. Been 11 days since I started this batch. 5th day of using bubbler and heat everyday for 10 hours +/-

It looks as if everything is gone except for the gold flakes. Gray sediment and the this copper colored "bones" that the gold was on are gone.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 26, 2017)

Just picked up a roll of oatey brand "safe-flo" lead free solder. Couldn't find the exact percentage of tin anywhere, but it's in the ingredients so I'm gonna roll with it since I need to get home asap.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 26, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> Just picked up a roll of oatey brand "safe-flo" lead free solder. Couldn't find the exact percentage of tin anywhere, but it's in the ingredients so I'm gonna roll with it since I need to get home asap.



Should do fine.

(some may bark at this suggestion...but..)

Id just take a couple of your small shiny flakes of goldfill and dissolve them with hcl bleach, and use that as a standard test solution. Just be sure to not go overboard on the bleach, (it will make the solution lean towards alkaline, the more you use) and to evaporate the chlorine off. Then drop by drop you can use that forever, to test a drop of your stannous to make sure it is good.

If it were me.
Id probably take 20mL of HCl, heat it up, add the few foils then stir. While its still swirling add a ml or 2 of bleach, drop by drop. Keep stirring. Let that work for awhile, agitating it along the way. If the foils are there after 10 minutes or so, add another mL drop by drop (still stirring).

You dont want your standard solution to have any excess oxidizer. Keeping it hot and stirring will help use it to dissolve the gold, and when its all gone, just leave it on the heat for half an hour or so to expell the chlorine that wasn't used during dissolution. Just dont let it dry out.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 26, 2017)

I think that might be my only option until I can get some nitric. I'm just gonna have to break down and buy some online and pay that ridiculous shipping and hazmat fee when I have the money.

In other news, I'm confident that my gold filled mixture is ready for further processing. I pulled out a small scoop with a plastic spoon and there's nothing left except for the gold and what looks like oxidized copper bits. 

Also, I got the solder soaking in Hcl, been going on 45 minutes now and there's not much going on in the small jar it's in. Some very light bubbling, but that's it. Gonna watch some Geo's video again.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 26, 2017)

Hers the mix as of now. There's not nearly as much material as there was earlier. Could I have dissolved some gold? The stuff I'm pulling out with the spoon looks less amd less copper-ish amd more gold colored. Maybe it's just dissolving more of the base metals? I did add a 1/4 cup of Hcl this morning.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 26, 2017)

Here we go


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

Need some pointers here. My tin solder has been soaking in Hcl for about 18 hours now and there's still nothing going on. Put heat on it and still nothing. The pieces I cut up are still shiny silver looking.


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## anachronism (Apr 27, 2017)

What strength HCl and are you sure it's tin solder? Show us a pic of the side of the tube with the labels. Edit: You did buy lead free solder didn't you?


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## upcyclist (Apr 27, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> I think that might be my only option until I can get some nitric. I'm just gonna have to break down and buy some online and pay that ridiculous shipping and hazmat fee when I have the money.


When you get to that point, be sure to post here (GRF, not this thread of course), include your location, and see if anyone would like to go in with you & help defray the shipping. Heck, maybe they've even got an account with a lab supply place already and a nonresidential address to ship it to


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

anachronism said:


> What strength HCl and are you sure it's tin solder? Show us a pic of the side of the tube with the labels. Edit: You did buy lead free solder didn't you?



32% Hcl and here's the solder


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 27, 2017)

I think that says silver bearing?
I cant really read it well though

But, Id guess it is tin with a touch of silver


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

It's the only one I could find that plainly listed tin as the main ingredient. It has silver in it, but only 2% if I remember correctly.


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## upcyclist (Apr 27, 2017)

According to the MSDS for their Safe Flo Silver Solder (which includes #29024 in his hand): 

Alloy composition: Tin, Copper, Bismuth, Silver


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## anachronism (Apr 27, 2017)

To be honest that should be fine- try warming it up.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 27, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> Need some pointers here. My tin solder has been soaking in Hcl for about 18 hours now and there's still nothing going on. Put heat on it and still nothing. The pieces I cut up are still shiny silver looking.


I'm not sure what you expect to happen, but that sounds normal. Stannous solution is colorless. It takes quite a while for all the solder to dissolve, but you don't need it all to dissolve. In fact, you never really want it to all dissolve as your stannous will degrade pretty quickly after it's gone.

Have you tried to use it yet? Dissolve a few of your gold foils in a small amount of HCl and bleach as has been described. Add a drop to a q-tip and add a drop of your stannous.

Dave


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

Then it should work. I was just expecting the solder to turn dark gray like in the videos I watched. I put heat on it again til a light steam started, it did bubble more this time. Turned the heat off and let it sit while I went to a doctors appointment and will check it as soon as I'm back home on some dissolved gold in some Hcl and bleach.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

Whoo hoo!!!!! This is the gold filled stuff after incineration and another wash.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 27, 2017)

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but you may still have a fair amount of base metal there. A wise woman (Hoke) suggested doing small samples when dealing with something new. Take a tiny sample - just a few foils, maybe 1% of your total batch - and dissolve it by your method of choice. Gold in solution is yellow to orange depending on the concentration. Copper, the most prevalent base metal is green to blue. If your solution is mainly yellow you're well on your way. If it's dark green or blue, you may want to put the rest back into the AP for a while longer. Patience.

Dave


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## Shark (Apr 27, 2017)

I make my stannous by adding pieces of solder to the hydrochloric. While it sits, I heat up some water in a one cup coffee maker (dedicated for my refining effort's) and use the hot water to warm my stannous. By the time it reach's enough warmth to notice it isn't cool anymore, I place it in my dropper bottle and use it. The whole process only takes a few minutes.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

I've slowly been pouring off the used smb solution from the tiny batch of fingers I did last weekend. There's very fine brown particles floating ontop of the solution now. You almost can't even see it unless you're really looking, but it's there. So not to accidentally pour off any gold powder I'm thinking of just boiling it down as it is. I transferred the solution with the gold powder to another coffee pot in order to follow lazersteve's washing process.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I don't want to be a wet blanket, but you may still have a fair amount of base metal there. A wise woman (Hoke) suggested doing small samples when dealing with something new. Take a tiny sample - just a few foils, maybe 1% of your total batch - and dissolve it by your method of choice. Gold in solution is yellow to orange depending on the concentration. Copper, the most prevalent base metal is green to blue. If your solution is mainly yellow you're well on your way. If it's dark green or blue, you may want to put the rest back into the AP for a while longer. Patience.
> 
> Dave



Will do! I washed it quite a few times going from Hcl to water back and forth. Did it enough time that I forgot how many times I did it. I also did 2 incinerations. Everything is in one of my coffee pots now. Suppose a good soak in hot Hcl and another filtering wouldn't hurt, but all I can see is bits of burnt filter and little clumps of gold. I did wash and rinse till the washes came out clear.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 27, 2017)

When we create a solution of "AP", there's a reason we use the peroxide. In reality, what we are creating is a copper(II) chloride (CuCl2) leach. 

If you put a clean piece of copper in HCl, seal the container, and leave it for a while, not much happens. Copper does not dissolve in HCl.

If you put an oxidized, corroded, green piece of copper in HCl, the acid will dissolve the copper oxide and the solution will turn green because copper oxide dissolves in HCl. You will have CuCl2 in solution.

If you put a clean piece of copper in HCl and add a bit of hydrogen peroxide, the peroxide will oxidize the surface of the copper, and as it does, the copper oxide will be dissolved by the HCl. You will have CuCl2 in solution.

The interesting part is that a solution of CuCl2 dissolves copper! That's why our "AP" solution works.

When we understand this, we can understand that HCl washes will not wash away _undissolved_ copper. Washes are good! But HCl will not dissolve copper.

Dave


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## Shark (Apr 27, 2017)

That is one of the easiest to understand explanations of how AP works I have seen yet, Dave.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

The stannous works!


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

I'm pretty freaking excited! All I got left is to drop it and wait! I'm kind of freaking out a bit haha


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 27, 2017)

Slow down cowboy! Is that the solution you're going to precipitate from? I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but that's filthy. Your solution, just before you add your precipitant, should be crystal clear. If you precipitate from that solution, your gold will drag down a lot of contaminants.

If your solution is cloudy, just keep filtering. You can pour the same solution through the same filter over and over. As the bigger particles clog up the big pores of the filter paper, it traps smaller and smaller particles. When the solution is crystal clear, you're ready to precipitate.

But I suppose I'm imposing my own standards. I'm just saying, that some additional filtering (and Patience) will result in cleaner gold.

Dave


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

I got ya Dave! This is my 2nd time doing this so I'm still learning. I did filter it again before dropping it, but probably should've filtered it again after reading your post. Losing daylight didn't help either so I went ahead with the process. Once it settles I can decant, filter then dissolve again though, right? I'm really trying to familiarize myself with the process at this point. And this time went alot smoother than last weekend did with the small batch of fingers I did. Not sure why I didn't think to keep filtering it. Noob mistakes lol


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

FrugalRefiner said:


> When we create a solution of "AP", there's a reason we use the peroxide. In reality, what we are creating is a copper(II) chloride (CuCl2) leach.
> 
> If you put a clean piece of copper in HCl, seal the container, and leave it for a while, not much happens. Copper does not dissolve in HCl.
> 
> ...



I see. Well, if I had still seen copper mixed in with the gold stuff I would've kept it soaking longer, but the last 2 days almost there were no copper to be seen, just tiny little gold bits. I have no doubt I need practice and more experience with everything that this involves, but I was pretty good about allowing the mix to do its thing. I'm sure the more I run this method as well as try new ones the better I'll get at it. Thanks for all your help guys!!!


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## Shark (Apr 27, 2017)

Another visual aid.

Example of a solution that needs filtering.




And one that has already been filtered.





The color will vary at times depending on the contaminant. In the first picture the hydrochloric stayed pretty and clear, even when heated. Upon the first addition of nitric it flashed a dirty green then went to yellow/orange as the powders dissolved further. There is also fluffy pieces floating that settled out in just a few minutes, so it will clearly need some filtering to become clean.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

Ahhhhhh! Ok! Yeah, mine was definitely filthy then, as Dave stated. Seeing that really helped, Shark! Thanks buddy! The drop I did just before dark is gonna settle till tomorrow afternoon. Then, I'm gonna decant into a filter and start the refining process all over again, this time filtering more than twice. I also read that ice cubes help with the dropping when using AR, does the same apply for AP?


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 27, 2017)

Also, I'm cooking down the small batch of powder I got from the fingers last weeknd. Alternating between water and Hcl, just adding a tiny bit of either as it cooks off to help dissolve possible salts and whatnot. During which I've notice small crystals trying to form, like when boiling down a salty solution. From my studies I'm guessing they're a chloride of some kind? I'm still searching the forum for a post that might tell me in detail.


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## Shark (Apr 27, 2017)

Are the crystals long and thin, needle like and white looking? 
If so, possibly lead, which should wash out with hot water, not so well with cold water.


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## FrugalRefiner (Apr 27, 2017)

Dylan, a lot of us have worked hard to get you through your first refine. You've learned a lot, but you have much more to learn. My advice would be to step back from processing for a while. Keep gathering material. Read, read, read, then read some more. Only start a process when you understand it so well you're confident you won't have to ask any questions. If you still run into a problem, we'll be here to help.

Dave


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 28, 2017)

This is definitely the last I'll he doing this for quite a while! I really wanted to try and familiarize myself with this and see if it was possible. I've definitely had my share of refining for awhile guys. Next step, I'm just gonna read, study, annoy, and collect e-scrap while continuing melting down silver. I'm picking up some scrap jewelry this weekend as well as some old computers. As far as processing, think I'm just gonna watch what you guys are doing. Much love!


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## chuckgambale (Apr 28, 2017)

Shark that picture is a great visual aid for learning thank you very much for posting that. Isn't it nice to see a truly clear gold bearing solution.


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## Shark (Apr 28, 2017)

chuckgambale said:


> Shark that picture is a great visual aid for learning thank you very much for posting that. Isn't it nice to see a truly clear gold bearing solution.



As annoying as filtering can be at times, it feels great when you get it right. And the improvement it makes on the buttons are worth the effort.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 28, 2017)

Shark said:


> chuckgambale said:
> 
> 
> > Shark that picture is a great visual aid for learning thank you very much for posting that. Isn't it nice to see a truly clear gold bearing solution.
> ...



Looking alot better, still gonna do another filter though. Knowing what to look for really does help! Thanks Shark!


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 28, 2017)

Do you guys recycle your copper after you cement it out of your AP mixes? I don't have a lot of it, but I'm sure it'll add up over time.


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## Shark (Apr 28, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> Do you guys recycle your copper after you cement it out of your AP mixes? I don't have a lot of it, but I'm sure it'll add up over time.



I am still using my first AP. I have added to it over time so I would have a larger solution, and I have cemented some copper out in small lots. I used the copper to melt when I first started playing with my furnace. Maybe someone else can give you a better answer. I know if the copper isn't taken care of it will corrode (I think oxidize is the right word) fast.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 29, 2017)

Same here, Shark. Just been cementing it out in small amounts. 

On a side note, I had set the AP mix from the gold filled scrap aside in a separate container because I was suspicious that I had dissolved some gold into it. Tested it this morning with stannous and there she was. So I did a bit of reading and simply added a bit of clean copper to the jar.

Had read that Dave had done it on accident as well, so I'm gonna just cement it out. Kinda good this happened, allows me to get more much needed experience.


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 29, 2017)

If it's not crystal clear, with no visible cloudiness, it needs filtering.


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## DylanDownright84 (Apr 29, 2017)

The first drop was filthy, as Dave told me it was going to be. Haha. So I filtered, washed, washed, and washed, then dissolved again. Filtered 4 times (see pretty yellow solution above) then dropped again. Was much cleaner this time. Let settle for about 36 hours, tested with stannous, negative, then decanted through a filter. Cooked down with Hcl then distilled water back and forth. Put on low heat till the powder dried up and turned a light tan. Saving it till I pull the rest out of the AP mix it came from. All in all the AP method did work on the gold filled scrap though.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Apr 29, 2017)

Not so sure it would if it was vermeil, or goldfill on sterling.
That would most likely cause you nothing but grief.


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## Shark (Apr 29, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> The first drop was filthy, as Dave told me it was going to be. Haha. So I filtered, washed, washed, and washed, then dissolved again. Filtered 4 times (see pretty yellow solution above) then dropped again. Was much cleaner this time. Let settle for about 36 hours, tested with stannous, negative, then decanted through a filter. Cooked down with Hcl then distilled water back and forth. Put on low heat till the powder dried up and turned a light tan. Saving it till I pull the rest out of the AP mix it came from. All in all the AP method did work on the gold filled scrap though.



What exactly are you calling "cooked down"?


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## DylanDownright84 (May 1, 2017)

Well here it is fellas! 1.2 grams. Thanks to all you sexy fellows that helped!


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## upcyclist (May 2, 2017)

Great! I'm glad you got something sizable to show for your time.

One small tip: get your button hotter next time, and it'll be more button than lump. Insulating the area around the crucible (making an impromptu box/furnace) helps a lot--you can use fire blanket (aka ceramic blanket, kaowool) or refractory bricks.


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## DylanDownright84 (May 2, 2017)

upcyclist said:


> Great! I'm glad you got something sizable to show for your time.
> 
> One small tip: get your button hotter next time, and it'll be more button than lump. Insulating the area around the crucible (making an impromptu box/furnace) helps a lot--you can use fire blanket (aka ceramic blanket, kaowool) or refractory bricks.



Ahhhhhh! Never thought of that! Used a freshly glazed 150g crucible with another ontop of it. Since all my dust was collected in 2 small pieces of filter I didn't wanna chance any of it blowing away. Took some time, but I'm happy with the overall process and results. My silver melts very fast and easily with my mapp. Gold however doesn't melt quite as smoothly. I have an old coffee can I'm gonna turn into a makeshift insulation housing. The scrap gold I melted down in the past melted pretty nicely into a small 14 gram ingot, but I have some other scrap that won't melt at all. It's weird.


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## upcyclist (May 2, 2017)

Yep, the melting point of gold is a couple hundred degrees (Fahrenheit) higher than silver. If that's right at the edge of your torch output, you'll know it 



DylanDownright84 said:


> The scrap gold I melted down in the past melted pretty nicely into a small 14 gram ingot, but I have some other scrap that won't melt at all. It's weird.


Not weird at all, since "scrap" covers lots of different karat levels (assuming you're talking jewelry scrap here). The base metal content affects the melting point, too--and even more so for gold filled & plated items. Brass will have a lower melting point then straight copper, and both are lower than plated steel. Metals can also help others melt, as they alloy at the surfaces where the two meet--so copper with molten zinc around it will melt sooner (into a brass alloy) than straight copper.


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## DylanDownright84 (May 2, 2017)

I'm using a mapp torch. Burns around 3600°F in open air. Melts silver great, but anytime I've tried melting gold it gets lumpy like in the above pic. Gonna get myself some kaowool and see if I can build another small forge. I did build one a while back, but can't get it hot enough with my current fuel options. I do have access to about 300 gallons of propane that's not being used and I plan on either moving the tank to the shed and running it with oxygen or running a line from the tank to my grill and just using the grilling tank for the shed with some oxygen. I have 3 empty tanks that a friend gave me from when he was a firefighter so it might be my next little project.


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## upcyclist (May 5, 2017)

DylanDownright84 said:


> I'm using a mapp torch. Burns around 3600°F in open air.


It's not so much about the flame temp but the heat output (in BTUs). A Smith Little Torch running oxy/acetylene gets nice and hot, but if you're going to melt more than an ounce of metal you better have the rosebud (multi-orifice) tip.

edit: corrected name of torch


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## anachronism (May 5, 2017)

Not quite Upcyclist old friend. I get the analogy however you can happily melt 4-5 ounces using a Oxy/Acetylene smith welding torch head- even the small one. 

Apologies

Jon


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## g_axelsson (May 5, 2017)

Jon, I think he is talking about something like this.
https://www.riogrande.com/Product/smith-little-torch-propane-and-oxygen-set-for-disposable-tanks/500090

Göran


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## upcyclist (May 5, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Jon, I think he is talking about something like this.
> https://www.riogrande.com/Product/smith-little-torch-propane-and-oxygen-set-for-disposable-tanks/500090
> 
> Göran


That is exactly the one I meant--I said "mini torch", but have since corrected it to "Little Torch". It's a jeweler's torch, and most jewelers use a small head for silver soldering.


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## anachronism (May 5, 2017)

Ahhhh fair comment lads- 8) 8) 

Jon


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## Shark (May 15, 2017)

Been thinking about the original post lately and decided to give it a small test when I ran across a pair of eyeglasses marked 1/25 18KGE rolled gold. (May have been gold rolled, not sure now  )

Day 2
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WNFGHeSUNU[/youtube]

Day 3
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWuJLSksp0Y[/youtube]

Day 5
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVZeP2Q_ZN4[/youtube]



I feel an aggressive air pump is very helpful. As well, I think an oxygen concentration is a plus. In this case I am using a nebulizer and it seemed to work noticeably better than the old fish aquarium pumps. I started this using fresh HCl and 1/4 ounce of old AP.


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## upcyclist (May 16, 2017)

That green on day 2 with only a quarter ounce of CuCl2? Impressive! I haven't messed with copper chloride much, so I didn't know you could use such a small amount to kickstart some HCl.


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## Shark (May 16, 2017)

I think the biggest problem most new people have with AP is not using enough of it to do the job. Combine that with just letting it sit and it becomes even slower. Using a good amount of the AP combined with the aggressive agitation of a good pump and things really get to working.


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## Shark (May 17, 2017)

I am a bit hesitant about posting this last one as it has several things that should have been done more carefully. But here it is, just to see the project through to the end. I combined several short video's just to make it easier to upload.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCL0-o0GjXM&t=69s[/youtube]


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## Ritchbitch (May 19, 2017)

I'm pretty sure your friend meant to add more precipitant after our gold first drops as to be sure all the gold is drawn out of your solution. Correct me if i'm wrong but that's what I would do regardless if my stannous came back negative. there usually is a little more in there. i DON'T rinse over the remaining filtered solution as to not dilute it too much. I used to do that till i did my stock pots and pulled 4 grams out of one 2 gallon bucket. we do amature things when we are amateurs... but we weren't born knowing this stuff


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## g_axelsson (May 19, 2017)

Very dark solution after dropping the gold. Are you using copperas to reduce the gold back to metal?

Göran


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## Shark (May 19, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Very dark solution after dropping the gold. Are you using copperas to reduce the gold back to metal?
> 
> Göran



Yes, I used coppers, it was handiest at the time and needed using up since it had been sitting for a while..


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