# Pgm refining



## Eg.refiner (Sep 29, 2020)

Hello , i need help to seperate pgm slug contains impurities from catalytic converters smelting 
I need to know the best method to seperate it , please help me 
- Analysis report with XRF is : 
Pd : 49.12% 
Fe : 24.65% 
Rh : 5.09% 
Pb : 7.48 % 
Pt : 2.20 % 
Ni : 5.21 % 
Cu : 2.88 % 
Mo : 0.30 % 
Zn : 3.09 % 
Weight is : 300 g


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## kurtak (Oct 1, 2020)

Eg.refiner

First we need to know what your end goal is

(1) Do you want to simply separate the base metal from the PGMs but not necessarily separate the PGMs - in other words get rid of the base metals in order to "up grade" the PGMs ?

This would be the easiest & what I would do - as trying to get complete separation of the PGMs is not an easy task & better left to the "real professional" PGM refiners (in my opinion)

(2) Or do you want to actually want to separate the PGMs as refined PGMs ?

More difficult & likely not worth the added time & cost

Kurt


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## Lino1406 (Oct 1, 2020)

I agree - to leave together all PM's. Add aqua regia, filter in the cold to get rid of lead chloride. Then cement with copper foils (or balls with shaking)


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## DNIndustry (Oct 1, 2020)

I'm interested in how one would proceed in melting the mixed PGM end product. Does it need inert atmosphere? Hydrogen flame?


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## snoman701 (Oct 1, 2020)

DNIndustry said:


> I'm interested in how one would proceed in melting the mixed PGM end product. Does it need inert atmosphere? Hydrogen flame?



really needs to be chemically refined first. or at least re-dissolved and re-precipitated with a different method. cemented sponge tends to drag down a lot of chloride, which will make melting a mess.

but yes, you can do it with a hydrogen torch. it won't be 'clean', but it will be sellable.


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## Eg.refiner (Oct 7, 2020)

kurtak said:


> Eg.refiner
> 
> First we need to know what your end goal is
> 
> ...



Thank you for your reply Mr Kurtak
Can you please tell me both methods
i smelted the catalytic converters with flux and i end with this Slug
Thank you


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## Eg.refiner (Oct 17, 2020)

Eg.refiner said:


> Hello , i need help to seperate pgm slug contains impurities from catalytic converters smelting
> I need to know the best method to seperate it , please help me
> - Analysis report with XRF is :
> Pd : 49.12%
> ...



Please help guys , no body helped me


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## Yggdrasil (Oct 17, 2020)

Eg.Refiner.

Simply put, you already got help, but not in detail.
We encourage doing your own studies in the forum, it is all here.

I interpret Kurtaks advice to be: 
Dissolve and cement out with copper. 
Then you can sell it as mixed PGM powders or melt it and sell it.

You can separate the different metals but that is a different ballgame all together.
It is NOT recommended to have PGMs in solution (more than absolutely neccessary) due to its toxicity.

The answer was there, but may have been lost in its simplicity.


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## Eg.refiner (Oct 19, 2020)

Yggdrasil said:


> Eg.Refiner.
> 
> Simply put, you already got help, but not in detail.
> We encourage doing your own studies in the forum, it is all here.
> ...


Thank you for responde 
I need help in details please 
1- do i disolve in Aqua regia ? 
2- does cementing with zink or copper ? 
3- steps for cementing the 3 PM ?


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## Yggdrasil (Oct 19, 2020)

Eg.refiner.
As I said we do prefer you to study the forum and find the answers yourself.
It is in the line of:


> You can give a men a fish and he will be fed for the day or you can teach him to fish and he will be fed for life


 situation.


Some tips regarding the questions:


> 1- do i disolve in Aqua regia ?
> *Dissolve in AR, HCl/Peroxide, HCl/Bleach or what ever method suits you and your situation. If it contains much Rh you may or may not, need to use some concentrated sulfuric and sodium chloride*
> 2- does cementing with zink or copper ?
> *If you cement with Zinc all the base metals will cement out as well. Make sure there is plenty of agitation and the solution are sufficiently acidic, heating helps tremedously as well, but do not boil*
> ...



Be aware that this is just a short description and do not cover all issues and procedures regarding the situation at hand.

In any case: *Please study* the forum and in particular the safety and waste handling parts, before you contionue your operation beyond this.


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## Martijn (Oct 20, 2020)

Eg.Refiner, if you want answers, please read the questions Kurt asked you and answer his questions first. we (GRF) need more info to help you. We're not unwilling. 
You will not get a quick fix or a 'How To Do Manual' to get to a fast and easy end result. Hydrometallurgy and smelting is not something you do in a rush or poorly prepared. 
Don't step on the rocket if you have no plan on how to land. 
The goal here is: Do it safe and responsible, or don't do it at all. We refuse to help people hurt themselves. 
Which one will be your choice? If we feel you don't take your time, you will hit a concerete wall on your quest. 
Open your mind and have some patience, and this gem of info and experienced people will open up like a beautiful flower.

Martijn.


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## kurtak (Oct 20, 2020)

First of all I am sorry for the long delay in getting back to this but these days I just don't have a lot of time to post on the forum

I originally asked you what your end goal is (which you never really answered)

However - you sent me a private message Oct. 11 (again sorry I did not reply - just did not have time) in which you said --- "i need to know both methods please because i need to sell it"

In which case why don't you just sell it as it is :?: 

Just like karat gold scrap (like say 12K gold which is 50% gold & 50% base metal) a refinery is going to pay you the same amount of money for the gold whether it is 999 gold or 50% gold --- the question is what they pay based on how much you send to them 

In other words most refineries have a minimum you need to send in to get their highest pay out rate but if you send in less then their minimum they pay less

Example; - the refinery I send my metals to has a minimum on gold of 5 troy ounces & as long as I send in at least 5 ozt. they pay 98% --- if I send in less the 5 ozt. they pay less then 98% --- how much less they pay depend on how much less I send in

What that means is if I send them at least 5 ozt of 999 gold they will pay me 98% --- on the other hand they will also pay me 98% for 12K scrap as long as what I send comes to at least 5 ozt gold - so with 12K gold scrap I would need to send in at least 10 ozt of 12K --- to get the same 98% pay out

in other words - I don't need to refine the 12K scrap to 999 to get the 98% pay out - I just need to make sure the "gold content" I send them meets there 5 ozt minimum

The same is true with PGMs (&/or silver) 

In other words you can sell the slug as is - the refinery is going to pay you the same for the PGMs whether you refine them or not - the question of how much they pay is a question of whether the PGM "content" meets their minimum - or not

Back when I did this full time - part of my operation was a smelting operation - I never refined the dore metal recovered from the smelting process (dore metal being base metals plus PMs - PMs being gold silver & PGMs) I just sent the dore metal in & got paid out on the PM content of the dore metal

That because they paid me the same for the PMs whether I refined them or not - it was just a question of how much they paid for each PM - which was a question of if each PM met the minimum or not

If each PM hit at least the minimum I would get their full pay out rate --- if any of the PMs were less then the minimum then they would pay a lesser amount for that PM - which was the same rate if I sent that less amount in as a refined metal

So it just made no sense to spend extra time & money to refine the dore metal when I got paid the same money for the PMs whether they were refined - or not - because they assayed the dore - paid out on the PMs based on the PM content of the dore 

So in my opinion it not worth the time &/or money to try further refining your dore slug - send it in - they will assay it & then pay you out based on their pay out rate for the amount of PGMs you send them

Kurt


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## Eg.refiner (Oct 22, 2020)

kurtak said:


> First of all I am sorry for the long delay in getting back to this but these days I just don't have a lot of time to post on the forum
> 
> I originally asked you what your end goal is (which you never really answered)
> 
> ...



Thank you for your reply , i'm so sorry for bothering you 
- My end goal is too sell the slug with good value 
- So who is the best refiner i can deal with to sell PM , he have great payout values and not take too much time to pay out ?


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## kurtak (Oct 23, 2020)

Eg.refiner said:


> - So who is the best refiner i can deal with to sell PM , he have great payout values and not take too much time to pay out ?



Your profile say that your "country of origin" is Egypt --- is that where you live --- or is that where you are from - but now live in the USA

If you live in Egypt I have no idea who deals in buying PMs in Egypt

So - my question would be --- who did you intend to sell to if you were going to try to refine the slug before selling --- because you should also be able to sell the slug - as is - to the same company

On the other hand - if you now live in the USA then I can point you to a couple companies you can talk to 

The first would be Lou right here on the forum - he is a refiner of PGMs

Kurt


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## Eg.refiner (Oct 23, 2020)

Hii , thank you for your reply 
I live in Egypt 
I need to sell this slug because i need cash flow , we can speak with lou to discuss how we can manage it , 


I was asking to refining it because i was thinking to sell it to local dealer in Egypt , so what do you think refining it or sell it as it ? 
What is the better way ?


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 23, 2020)

I don't mean to sound negative, but if you need to ask questions about how to refine PGMs, you should sell them as is. Once you put them into solution (particularlry platinum), they become very dangerous. If you understand the dangers, you probably understand how to refine them, If you don't understand how to refine them, you probably don't appreciate the dangers. We have lost several members to PGM toxicity, including a member named freechemist, who worked with these materials for a living.

Dave


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## Eg.refiner (Nov 4, 2020)

kurtak said:


> Eg.refiner said:
> 
> 
> > - So who is the best refiner i can deal with to sell PM , he have great payout values and not take too much time to pay out ?
> ...


 i need to do cementation for it so i can ship it to Any refiner , that is why i need you to help me to do cementation for it


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## kurtak (Nov 5, 2020)

Eg.refiner said:


> i need to do cementation for it so i can ship it to Any refiner , that is why i need you to help me to do cementation for it



I don't really have time to reply right now

That said - why do you want to know how to do cementation ?

have you already dissolved the slug in AR & put the metals into a solution ?

Kurt


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## Eg.refiner (Nov 18, 2020)

I did not dissolved it in AR , i need to know use CU or ZN to cement out the PM ? 
I need to know pls


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## Martijn (Nov 18, 2020)

Eg.refiner,
looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series you will cement out all less reactive metals that are *in solution* out on a more reactive metal. 
Because zink will also cement out (everything?) less reactive than Zinc, you can possibly have iron, tin, nickel and many more non-PM's in your "PM"-cement when cementing on zinc. depending on whats in the mix to start with.
In waste treatment we commonly cement leftover solutions containing traces of PM's on copper to recover the PM's and cement on iron to separate the toxic base metals for safe disposal.
If you don't understand this table or the ionic displacement reaction, study handling waste as given in earlier posts and links. If you have not dissolved the PM's there is no need to cement. 


Martijn.


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## ashir (Dec 17, 2020)

Eg.refiner said:


> I did not dissolved it in AR , i need to know use CU or ZN to cement out the PM ?
> I need to know pls



doing it by yourself is much dangrous while you not know how metal behave in acids. 
Its batter to keep a small piece and sell remaining material. 
Read forum, ask question, educate yourself, be equiped and then start testing on the small piece you keep. Pgm refining is not simple.... not cheap. 
Every one is here to help you but when you not go through small tests and recoveries,its not a wise action to try on a large batches. 
If you are registered then you can sell it out of egypt.


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