# Button used for nitric consumption



## Smokin_Cache (Aug 29, 2014)

Because I recover and refine for myself I typically leave a little gold in the AR that gets "stored" in my filters. This prevents me from dealing with extra nitric. I recently goofed a measurement or a test of a karat piece and had about a milliliter to much nitric because it consumed just about a gram of this 1.5 gram shot bead. I like the texture of this and I am considering doing this a larger piece just to take pictures of.

What do you think?


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## GotTheBug (Aug 29, 2014)

Looks like a small, expensive meteorite fragment. Very cool.


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## RoboSteveo (Aug 30, 2014)

That looks awesome. I'd take some pics of it for sure.


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## hokeypokey (Aug 30, 2014)

That looks neat! A before and after picture would show how it was changed but I'm not trying to tell you how to do it. I'm looking forward to seeing your next picture. Thanks for sharing.


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## heliman4141 (Sep 7, 2014)

Smokin_Cache said:


> Because I recover and refine for myself I typically leave a little gold in the AR that gets "stored" in my filters. This prevents me from dealing with extra nitric. I recently goofed a measurement or a test of a karat piece and had about a milliliter to much nitric because it consumed just about a gram of this 1.5 gram shot bead. I like the texture of this and I am considering doing this a larger piece just to take pictures of.
> 
> What do you think?




Does anyone know the timeframe for a button to consume extra nitric if its just a few ml too much? A day, a week, etc..?
Ive never seen that answer or question here and am wondering if its worth the time or "if in a hurry" are the other options better to save time?
Time spent is the issue im mainly concerned with. 

Dave


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## solar_plasma (Sep 7, 2014)

That depends on concentration, temperature, surface and stirring. Consider weeks.


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 7, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> That depends on concentration, temperature, surface and stirring. Consider weeks.


I agree that concentration, temperature, surface area of the button, and stirring/agitation are all factors. But remember, Harold developed this technique, and for him, time was critical. If it took weeks, he would have never used it, as he usually turned his gold around in a matter of days. If the solution is hot, it should be minutes to hours, not days or weeks.

Perhaps Harold will share his experience here.

Dave


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## solar_plasma (Sep 7, 2014)

I agree completely and what you say isn't contradicting my advice. Most hobbyists will be in a situation with a large quantity of cold liquid without stirring and a significant excess of nitric - this 1 ml might dissolve a gram of gold, ...dissolving from a button with its small surface.


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## heliman4141 (Sep 8, 2014)

FrugalRefiner said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > That depends on concentration, temperature, surface and stirring. Consider weeks.
> ...


 
Actually Harold was the one I was thinking about when asking this, I know he regularly insisted that this was his proven method & he weighed his buttons before any addition & measured loss when it was done consuming the button. Makes sense on big batches and saves from adding additional needless chemicals. I was just wondering on small batches that were only 5-10 grams etc.....
I bit the bullet & purchased 1 gallon of 69% Nitric to finish off what my hcl won't touch without endless time which I do not have the patience for. Said I was done refining but well, damn Gold fever......and looking at all the scrap I still have that I paid dearly for I just can't let it collect dust & can't sell it as it is. Its was solid bars that I re-melted & poured into shot in a metal bucket, some filled jewelry, & chains, but no foils or pins left etc... so AP won't cut the mustard, I gotta use the "BIG nitric hammer" as they say. Ive several buttons now so was thinking about going that rout instead of Urea and ive learned to be stingy with nitric when making AR but one can still add a tad too much. On my 2nd & perhaps 3rd drops Ill be using hcl/cl afterwards. Im going to get very anal about the 9s on these batches. I want perfection this round. My buttons test 20k so I obviously need to refine more & wash more.
Sounds like heating the nitric solution is the key here I guess. Unless I hear otherwise.

Dave


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## Harold_V (Sep 8, 2014)

heliman4141 said:


> Does anyone know the timeframe for a button to consume extra nitric if its just a few ml too much? A day, a week, etc..?


Way too many variables to provide a responsible answer, but I'll try to address my experiences. 
It stands to reason that if you have a ml or two of excess nitric in five liters of solution, it's going to take a lot longer for all of the nitric to come in contact with the added gold than it would if the solution was evaporated to a half liter. Based on that alone, not even considering temperature, it would be difficult to put a time on the process. 

My procedure was to add the gold when I evaporated. I wanted my solutions concentrated, so I wasn't dealing with huge volumes when I precipitated. I often processed several ounces in one batch, so it would have been quite easy to end up with gallons of solutions when it could be concentrated to just a few liters, or even less. Because the consumption of free nitric takes place faster in a concentrated solution (assuming there's adequate HCl present), I evaporated until my solution was somewhat concentrated, then I'd add the button of gold. With the temperature of the solution hot enough to evaporate, the action was obvious, as there were miniscule bubbles generated at the added gold. If there was a large excess (unusual), I'd cover the vessel with a watch glass, so there was no loss of values. You could judge that condition by the fact that there were the familiar brown fumes emanating from the solution. I'd remove the watch glass as quickly as the action slowed, to resume evaporation. 

I fully expect that if you add a button and do not heat, and the fee nitric is quite low, it may NEVER consume any gold. If it does, it may well take the days or weeks you mentioned. Heat your solutions. I can't even imagine refining without doing so. No more than I could imagine refining without incineration!

Harold


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## jason_recliner (Sep 8, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> I evaporated until my solution was somewhat concentrated, then I'd add the button of gold.


I know I am looking at this from a position of inexperience. But it seems to me that the earlier you add the button*, even before evaporation has commenced or as it commences, the sooner excess [stt]nitrate[/stt] nitric would be used up.
I can see that it would be used at a faster rate in a concentrated solution. Although if the aim is to reduce wall time, you'll still get some consumption while the solution is slowly concentrating.

(* Never seen one. I'm still only up to collecting powder.)


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## Geo (Sep 8, 2014)

Post it on Ebay using that picture and add that it is a 24K .5g nugget. It's sure to bring a large premium.


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## heliman4141 (Sep 8, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> heliman4141 said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know the timeframe for a button to consume extra nitric if its just a few ml too much? A day, a week, etc..?
> ...




Hi Harold,
Yes your right about heating everything. All my processes are now heated only exception is when I use hcl/cl to liquify Gold powder for a re-drop.
Heat has speed up everything 10 fold I noticed. Concentrating by evaporation makes sense, ive read lots about that in Hokes.
My batches are so small by the time I do washes & rinses I probably won't have a nitric issue anyway since im doing 2nd drops & maybe a 3rd using only hcl/cl. The first drop in AR tho Ill have to be particularly stingy with the nitric & heat the mixture & make it more aggressive but with less acids.

Dave


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## heliman4141 (Sep 8, 2014)

Geo said:


> Post it on Ebay using that picture and add that it is a 24K .5g nugget. It's sure to bring a large premium.




Your spot on Geo,
Ive seen natural Gold nuggets & flakes go for way more then refined 24k does. Its that fever thing ............. :twisted: I enjoy watching Ebay auctions at the last 30 seconds on interesting Gold pcs.
Lots of the just plain crazy bids are by low feedback bidders that don't realize what they are doing valuewise. But it surely is fun to watch. :mrgreen: 
There is one born every second..........................

Dave


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## Harold_V (Sep 9, 2014)

jason_recliner said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > I evaporated until my solution was somewhat concentrated, then I'd add the button of gold.
> ...


Correct. Maybe I should have been somewhat more descriptive. I'll take another shot at it.

When I introduced the button often depended on the state of the button at hand. While I evaporated from glass evaporating dishes, I also evaporated from beakers. If the button was quite heavy, placing it in a beaker that was full was troublesome. I broke more than one that way, but I learned that I could get a heavy one in without damage if it didn't have far to go to the bottom. It was somewhat easier with an evaporating dish, with its sloped side, but still a concern if it was a heavy button. I commonly started with buttons that weighed a couple ounces. As they dissolved, the pipe would create a hole, making it much easier for the button to be placed with the aid of a glass stirring rod. So then, while there may be benefit in adding the button early in the game, unless it's placed before the solution is introduced, it may not be easy. True in a beaker, not true in an evaporating dish, to which I'd have to transfer the solution. 

Hope this helps my comments make more sense. And, if I have said something that may contradict previous posts, please consider that the last time I did any of this was more than 20 years ago. My memory is growing dim, to say nothing of me getting more goofy with age!

The bottom line with this is using some added gold is a sure way to eliminate free nitric, and it takes little effort aside from evaporating. May not be the solution for everyone, however. 

Harold


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## jason_recliner (Sep 9, 2014)

Owning gold buttons of excessive mass is a problem I can't wait to have. :lol:


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## heliman4141 (Sep 9, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> jason_recliner said:
> 
> 
> > Harold_V said:
> ...




Harold,
I have a couple questions for you. 
I just purchased Sulfamic acid crystals lastnite to be used to neutralize excess Nitric, ( as yet another option to get away from Urea completly), is this just as good as a button of Gold & just costs me a bit ($15 for 3lbs.). Im thinking the transformation to Sulfuric will also drop lead/tin before filtering (a good thing).

Also, I was thinking ......................What if I pounded a small button super thin then introduced it into the initial first AR drop wouldn't that also work on a small batch of Gold & dissolve much faster flattened?
What is your opinion, I realize you did huge batches verses the silly few grams I do ea. month. But which way would you go in my position ....Sulfamic or a flattened button on the AR drop? 
I have both options and both seem good.

Dave


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 9, 2014)

If you flatten the button, be sure to twist it to keep it from lying flat on the bottom of your vessel.

Dave


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## Harold_V (Sep 9, 2014)

heliman4141 said:


> I have a couple questions for you.
> I just purchased Sulfamic acid crystals lastnite to be used to neutralize excess Nitric, ( as yet another option to get away from Urea completly), is this just as good as a button of Gold & just costs me a bit ($15 for 3lbs.). Im thinking the transformation to Sulfuric will also drop lead/tin before filtering (a good thing).


Sulfamic acid was unknown by me before I learned about it on this forum. Because I have no experience, all I can do is call upon the comments made by those who do have, and indications are that it is a very acceptable method of dealing with free nitric. Yes, I'd give it a thumbs up, as you gain in both arenas, so long as you introduce the sulfamic before final filtration. 



> Also, I was thinking ......................What if I pounded a small button super thin then introduced it into the initial first AR drop wouldn't that also work on a small batch of Gold & dissolve much faster flattened?


It stands to reason that the greater surface area you present to the solution, the faster the consumption of the free nitric. I'd definitely encourage you to create thin material, assuming you have the capability. I didn't worry about it, as the solutions were exposed to evaporation until they were concentrated. I gained nothing by more surface area, and if there was a generous excess, I'd simply add another button. 

If you make the choice to flatten your gold, make certain you do so in a clean environment. Hammering on gold with dirty implements can lead to contamination being embedded in the gold, dragging unwanted substances to your clean solution. If you happen to have the luxury of a rolling mill, that would be my choice, as you can flatten a small amount of gold until you have a huge surface area. On the negative side, thin pieces have a way of breaking down such that tiny slivers may remain. They're not lost, as they're recovered in filtration, but you may or may not be able to account for how much you've added. I liked using a button, because in the worst case scenario, a tiny crescent may remain, but I do not recall ever having a problem recovering that which did not get dissolved. That may not be true if you roll a very thin sheet. 

I'd like to think that this isn't a matter of right or wrong. Both methods have their place. Pick the one that best suits your operation, or the one with which you are most comfortable. That's what I'd do if I was faced with the decision today. 

Harold


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## heliman4141 (Sep 9, 2014)

FrugalRefiner said:


> If you flatten the button, be sure to twist it to keep it from lying flat on the bottom of your vessel.
> 
> Dave




Thank you,
Another idea that ...........should have been obvious to me.


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## heliman4141 (Sep 9, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> heliman4141 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a couple questions for you.
> ...




I understand and app the input just the same.
Ive picked up 2-1/2" X6"X6" pcs of clean SS from my local steel shop & I have a SS hammer that I use only for beating down buttons with. It works like a charm, I place the SS plate on a clean rug to hold in place & control vibration then beat down the button with the hammer in just a few seconds. No chance of dirt scale or iron rust etc. Im learning the cleaner everything is the better the end results, and that means "everything the Gold touches".
My recovery & refining is getting so much easier now that I clean up everything & remove all tin lead in advance. Amazing how just hcl/peroxide can work on perfectly clean pins & plated items.
Even hcl boils to remove lead & tin don't really do a great job, helps a lot but contamanation is still present. I avoid anything with lead like the plague now.

Dave


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 10, 2014)

heliman4141 said:


> FrugalRefiner said:
> 
> 
> > If you flatten the button, be sure to twist it to keep it from lying flat on the bottom of your vessel.
> ...


It was Hoke's idea. I just passed it along.

Dave


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## Anonymous (Sep 10, 2014)

As has been pointed out quite rightly, each method of getting rid of free nitric has its place. 

Personally here is where the gold button approach falls down for me. For the new refiner who is learning, it's so simple to use far too much Nitric. That's a given that we will all agree upon. The Scarey bit about using too much Nitric is that feeling of "what am I going to do about it now?"

A newbie refiner he might only have a few grammes of gold - I remember the days well so I can relate to this. To then use that gold to use up free nitric is a double edged sword. What if there is too much free Nitric and it uses up the whole button? Where does the guy go from there because he's seen the fruits of his labour disappear into solution and STILL cannot drop his gold EVEN after following this process.

Personally I would advocate sulfamic acid. I think the true method of using this should be publicly documented on the forum to avoid what appear to be many confusions about it. It does work, it's both efficient and effective and has a couple of useful byproducts within the process.

Regards

Jon


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## jason_recliner (Sep 10, 2014)

spaceships said:


> Personally here is where the gold button approach falls down for me. For the new refiner who is learning, it's so simple to use far too much Nitric. That's a given that we will all agree upon. The Scarey bit about using too much Nitric is that feeling of "what am I going to do about it now?"
> 
> A newbie refiner he might only have a few grammes of gold - I remember the days well so I can relate to this. To then use that gold to use up free nitric is a double edged sword. What if there is too much free Nitric and it uses up the whole button? Where does the guy go from there because he's seen the fruits of his labour disappear into solution and STILL cannot drop his gold EVEN after following this process.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the issue I faced with my newbie PMAR sloppiness, after opening the nitrate floodgate.
- There's no way I could have added a button to my first batch. And it would not have been big enough if I had one.
- At the time, I was actually having trouble tracking down sulfamic anyway.
I found Ms Hoke's evaporation method slow but worked perfectly. It took a lot of time and probably used up a fair bit of electricity. I also had to keep adding HCl. As a hobbyist, that was fine for me. If I were in business, I like to think I would eventually settle into an efficient method where my flattened, twisted buttons were barely consumed.


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## Harold_V (Sep 11, 2014)

jason_recliner said:


> If I were in business, I like to think I would eventually settle into an efficient method where my flattened, twisted buttons were barely consumed.


With intentional exceptions, that's precisely where I found myself as I refined on a daily basis. The exception being when I extracted values from polishing wastes or filings, in each case, an excess desirable to ensure complete extraction of values. 

The added gold, for me, was a no-brainer, as I chose to evaporate my solutions to get them concentrated. It would make little sense to me to have used sulfamic. 

As I said, each has its place. There is no contest in regards to which is superior, as neither is. All depends on one's objective. 

Harold


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