# Ceramic Honeycomb



## shadybear (May 16, 2007)

Is it possible to remove this ceramic off the honeycomb with acid.
Would HCL work?


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## jimdoc (May 16, 2007)

Action Mining sells CLS that is mixed with HCL, and you should heat a little also. Check out their System III and System IV.
Here is a link to their site;

http://www.actionmining.com

http://www.actionmining.com/catconflyer.html


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## shadybear (May 16, 2007)

I have Actionmining's catalog and the cls and HCL you mention is to leach the pgm's from converters.
I just want to know if HCL will eat the the ceramic.

Also it would be interesting to know what the specific gravity of the ceramic and of Gamma Alumina or whatever it is called that is applied as a wash coat.


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## jimdoc (May 16, 2007)

I don't think HCL or anything else will dissolve the ceramic, it is probably
easier to dissolve the metals. There are other processes that are big bucks, but no way to do it cheaply.


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## shadybear (May 16, 2007)

The way I am Thinking about this is to find a way to remove the lighter materials and limit the amount of material that needs leached.
With Platinum, Palladium,and Rhodium all havin a specific gravity above 11 is it possible to maybe float the crushed material in say a saturated salt water bath with a specfic gravity of say 2.
I dont know what the SG is for the ceramic or if it would be feasible.


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## austexjwlry (Jun 18, 2007)

Shadybear

Have you or anyone else tried to heat ceramic in kiln then pour in water to see if it would break down due to thermal shock. I'll try it myself unless someone tells me this is a dumb idea! If thermal shock would break up, we could shock as many times as nessary times to finely divide, then pan etc.to seperate!

Wayne


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## jimdoc (Jun 19, 2007)

The problem with converters is the metals are applied to the honeycomb in solution, like an ionic state. It is not palladium metal and platinum metal
coating the honeycomb, if so the seperation ways mentioned may work, but like most things, it is more complicated than that. Leaching seems to be the easiest way, aqua regia would work, but would be way too
expensive. Platinumills guy should chime in with his thoughts, he should know a lot about this category.


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## platinumill (Jun 19, 2007)

Your right Jim. The honey comb subtrate is coated with PGM ions. The substrate is dipped in a sort of ion bath and soaks up the PGM ions. The ions have to be redisolved in a solution and plated out of that solution to recover the PGMs. There are other ways, but thats the way I use


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## aflacglobal (Jun 19, 2007)

The mask man makes an apperance. :shock: 

Hello platinum. Haven't seen you around. Hope things are well.

Later,

Ralph


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## austexjwlry (Jun 19, 2007)

Jim

When you over heat clay type ceramics during fireing greenware it can weaken it considerably. If you over heat it enough it would break down much easier in a ball mill.

In a crusible when you heat to melting several ounces of platinum, palladium, or fine silver they gulp (absorb) huge amounts of oxygen etc. Upon cooling a little it releases through almost volcanic action leaving the surface rough in the case of plat., fine silver. You can even get some peacock colored oxides in palladium. You heat and cool slightly with reducing flame to smooth surface making a better looking button or ingot.

During melting say a couple of lbs of fine silver a few ounces at a time without any flux you'll find a lot of very fine powered silver around crusible. Some lost to boiling, some to spitting (volcanic action), some going off in fumes.

I think this gulping/ eruption process may be one of the best examples of extreme catalytic reaction we commonly see at work. Just chemistry at elevated temperatures. 

If ceramic honeycomb were heated to around melting temp. of plat., palla., rhodium the silicon/aluminum wash etc., probably most of volatiles and some of the other trace bace metals would be driven off in flux or fumes. Hopefully reducing platinum ("ions"or particles) to elemental metal state, thus being more readily attacked by AR after quenching and milling.

I suspect some of the plat. etc., "lost" in heavily used converters is still there but in a less soluble state.

Even as early as 1940 Hoke knew of this phenomenom, on pg. 150 of the 1982 reprint by Met-Chem she mentions it breifly.

The big question for me is what state is plat., palla., and rhodium in use in converters and whats best method of reducing to something we can dissolve? 

I've got a lot to learn! I'm leaving a whole lot of room for constructive criticism!

Wayne


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## jimdoc (Jun 19, 2007)

Wayne,
I have no idea about any other way to do converters besides leaching.
I have no way of heating to the melting point of platinum yet, and rhodium
is much higher. I am still in the learning stage also, so I can't really answer your questions. I think the leaching process as platinumills or action mining's setup is the best way to go for the money, and ease of the process. You need to roast the carbon off first as that will avoid problems in the process.
Jim


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## austexjwlry (Jun 19, 2007)

Jim

I bought my first small glass blowing torch a minor bench burner at a pawnshop for $25. new their about $170. I only use around 7 psi oxy. & propane, plenty of heat! Melts 1oz pretty easy, just takes a lot more pateince than gold from powered form. I bought a pair of non-asbestos gloves from rio grande jewelry supplies, have still burnt knuckles with them on. Leather welding gloves might work with long handled torch. Welding goggles are a must have item.
I've got a couple converters to play with but are still on cars, might be a week or so, in the meantime I'll have to do some homework on converters.
I've got a small pyrex pan 1/2 full of plat. fiberglass & porcelain wafers in a pyrex pan covered with AR on hot plate. Really hot AR is rude, really nasty stuff!
Takes a while to collect these little guys, ate bace metals with nitric, washed well, then straight hydrochloric, washed well, now the hot AR! Mixed 1 part 70% nitric to 3 parts hydrochloric from home depot, 20 minutes at a real slow boil now, wasn't having much effect yet. A little action not much. Gotta be a better way! Not much value for this much hassel on wafers.I better go check it!

Thanks for all your help!

Wayne


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## jimdoc (Jun 19, 2007)

Wayne,
I have a few jewelers torches, just need to get the gas and hose. Also need goggles to melt platinum, I have a Miller automatic welding mask that would probably do the job, I think I would rather just get goggles.

In the action mining converter video, he shows some melted honeycomb that he says will have to be processed later. It must be broken up in much smaller pieces to allow for the metals to be extracted. I think using heat will just do the same and make big melted clumps of honeycomb.
Alot of the metals may also be in the dust when you break the honeycomb apart, and you have to watch that you don't breath that in, and using a torch will probably blow alot of that away.

If you want to get into catalytic converter processing I suggest you get action mining's dvd to see how they do it. He also shows an activated carbon filter that he uses to collect pgm's, and he said you can use aqua regia to get the metals out of the filter.
Jim


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## aflacglobal (Jun 19, 2007)

Ask platinummill. I know he has extensive background in this subject matter. :idea: 


Where you at platinum :?:


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