# My first AP process with fingers



## ilikesilver (Apr 29, 2013)

1 lb of mixed fingers. ram/boards/all different types

appropriate chemicals

one large coffee pot/pulled the cheap plastic lid off and used a ceramic plate on top

filled the fingers just over the top of the fingers with muratic acid, then added peroxide till it started to fiz. muratic acid is NOT the smart or green stuff. 

here are some pics

i just let it set, i did heat it up for 15 mins on a hotplate outdoors just to get a good reaction going, i have not added a air pump bubbler yet, i will for the next batch.


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## ilikesilver (Apr 29, 2013)

so two weeks have gone by and thru the magic of photography, ive decided to clean out all the board sections that have had there gold fallen off. i will filter the fluid and just wash the gold foils for now with water. Ive taken out all the bare boards and now i will dry the boards that still have gold on them, because they water on them. then i will restart the process with the boards again.


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## yar (Apr 29, 2013)

I may be wayyyyy off here but from what I have been reading if you gave the boards a stir and agitate the solution the remainder of the fingers will come off the boards. I think you are wasting chemicals and time doing it the way you are doing it. Like I said i may be wayyy off base but it just didn't sound right to me. Sorry if I am sticking my nose where it doesn't belong yet.


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## ilikesilver (Apr 29, 2013)

yar said:


> I may be wayyyyy off here but from what I have been reading if you gave the boards a stir and agitate the solution the remainder of the fingers will come off the boards. I think you are wasting chemicals and time doing it the way you are doing it. Like I said i may be wayyy off base but it just didn't sound right to me. Sorry if I am sticking my nose where it doesn't belong yet.



No your right, some will come off, but not all, some you can take and just hit with your tweezers/plastic only/ and they will come right off also. but remember, i didnt use a bubbler at all on this batch, just stirred them up every other day to mix a little then set again for two weeks. This is the REALLY slow way of doing it. I could have just let them keep going, but this is really my first batch and wanted to see how long it was going to take but letting them sit with no bubbler, well i lasted for two weeks, and now will get a bubbler tomorrow. Ive still have over half of the original batch to do, and another larger batch waiting so i want to get these done, and then work on pins. will try and post some pics tomorrow night, i so far have taken all the loose gold out and is currently soaking in water. Ive restarted the original batch again, will add some more chem's, not much, heat it for a bit and add the bubbler tomorrow.


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## kkmonte (Apr 29, 2013)

The bubbler will help mostly at cold temperatures. The problem with doing it the way you are doing it is how are you going to separate the fingers? Pull each of them out with tweezers? Check out lasersteve's website for video's, the way most people do it is to get a smaller bucket inside of a larger bucket (i use a 2 gal inside a 5 gal), drill holes in the smaller bucket (all over the bottom), and put fingers in the inside bucket, that way you can agitate it by pulling the inside bucket up, giving them a shake and dropping them back inside the acid. After a few days, the acid should be a pretty dark green if everything is working correctly. How much peroxide did you add (in relation to the acid?) ? Steve suggests adding half as much peroxide as you have acid (measure the acid as you are adding it). Also by doing it this way, you can reuse your AP solution for probably 20+ lbs of fingers by just having a bubbler going occasionally. I've done about 7 lbs of fingers and my solution is still working great (only up to about ~2 gallons total right now).

Ken


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2013)

ilikesilver, patience grasshopper.good things come to those that wait. your AP solution isnt saturated until the solution is almost black. by restarting the process, you may be dissolving gold as you add the fresh H2O2. dont be over anxious and let the chemicals do their job.all the foils will come loose in the amount of chemicals you had. since your doing it in a coffee pot, you can also warm the solution and speed things up quite a bit.


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## squarecoinman (Apr 30, 2013)

Geo said:


> patience grasshopper.good things come to those that wait.



I have not hear that since mid seventies , but it brought back lots of memories

scm


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## ilikesilver (Apr 30, 2013)

Geo said:


> ilikesilver, patience grasshopper.good things come to those that wait. your AP solution isnt saturated until the solution is almost black. by restarting the process, you may be dissolving gold as you add the fresh H2O2. dont be over anxious and let the chemicals do their job.all the foils will come loose in the amount of chemicals you had. since your doing it in a coffee pot, you can also warm the solution and speed things up quite a bit.



actually, Geo, thats exactly what i did, warmed it up slowly on my hotplate to speed up the process, the reason i did stop doing it was because the fluid was to the point black. So with all the reading i have done, im on the right track. And temp wise, its still pretty cool here in vermont. Buckets, yeah i will probably pick up the buckets and try it that way, but for now, im happy with the way im doing it and its working, and im in no hurry.


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## ilikesilver (Apr 30, 2013)

kkmonte said:


> The bubbler will help mostly at cold temperatures. The problem with doing it the way you are doing it is how are you going to separate the fingers? Pull each of them out with tweezers? Check out lasersteve's website for video's, the way most people do it is to get a smaller bucket inside of a larger bucket (i use a 2 gal inside a 5 gal), drill holes in the smaller bucket (all over the bottom), and put fingers in the inside bucket, that way you can agitate it by pulling the inside bucket up, giving them a shake and dropping them back inside the acid. After a few days, the acid should be a pretty dark green if everything is working correctly. How much peroxide did you add (in relation to the acid?) ? Steve suggests adding half as much peroxide as you have acid (measure the acid as you are adding it). Also by doing it this way, you can reuse your AP solution for probably 20+ lbs of fingers by just having a bubbler going occasionally. I've done about 7 lbs of fingers and my solution is still working great (only up to about ~2 gallons total right now).
> 
> Ken



for now yes, im separating them with tweezers, buckets are fine, but remember im only doing one pound at a time, buckets for me would be overkill. the coffee pot method is working fine, just slower.


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## kkmonte (Apr 30, 2013)

ilikesilver said:


> kkmonte said:
> 
> 
> > The bubbler will help mostly at cold temperatures. The problem with doing it the way you are doing it is how are you going to separate the fingers? Pull each of them out with tweezers? Check out lasersteve's website for video's, the way most people do it is to get a smaller bucket inside of a larger bucket (i use a 2 gal inside a 5 gal), drill holes in the smaller bucket (all over the bottom), and put fingers in the inside bucket, that way you can agitate it by pulling the inside bucket up, giving them a shake and dropping them back inside the acid. After a few days, the acid should be a pretty dark green if everything is working correctly. How much peroxide did you add (in relation to the acid?) ? Steve suggests adding half as much peroxide as you have acid (measure the acid as you are adding it). Also by doing it this way, you can reuse your AP solution for probably 20+ lbs of fingers by just having a bubbler going occasionally. I've done about 7 lbs of fingers and my solution is still working great (only up to about ~2 gallons total right now).
> ...



I only do 1 pound at a time and I couldn't imagine doing it the way you are.  Once you do the buckets, you'll see how much easier it is. Also, you should be leaving the fingers in the solution until they come out nice and plain plastic (with no copper/gold/etc.) on them. Is that what you are doing?


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## ilikesilver (Apr 30, 2013)

kkmonte said:


> ilikesilver said:
> 
> 
> > kkmonte said:
> ...




yeah i didnt pull out anything that wasnt spotless. everything else is back in the bath. tim


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## jmdlcar (May 1, 2013)

Can you post picture and the amount of foil you got? Can you post picture of the powder and the amount of powder?

Jack


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## jmdlcar (May 1, 2013)

Geo said:


> ilikesilver, patience grasshopper.good things come to those that wait. your AP solution isnt saturated until the solution is almost black. by restarting the process, you may be dissolving gold as you add the fresh H2O2. dont be over anxious and let the chemicals do their job.all the foils will come loose in the amount of chemicals you had. since your doing it in a coffee pot, you can also warm the solution and speed things up quite a bit.


Geo, is a temp of 140° F to hot hot and do it for 1 hour?

Jack


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## Geo (May 1, 2013)

it should not boil and the volume of fluids should not go below half of what you start with. as the volume of solution drops, you will begin losing acid due to evaporation so keep adding water to keep the volume steady.

time needed varies but an hour is a bit short. it can definitely be done in an afternoon with good stirring.


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## kkmonte (May 1, 2013)

Geo said:


> it should not boil and the volume of fluids should not go below half of what you start with. as the volume of solution drops, you will begin losing acid due to evaporation so keep adding water to keep the volume steady.
> 
> time needed varies but an hour is a bit short. it can definitely be done in an afternoon with good stirring.



Wouldn't you lose water and actually concentrate the acid?


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## Geo (May 1, 2013)

kkmonte said:


> Wouldn't you lose water and actually concentrate the acid?



absolutely. thats why you want to keep the volume as constant as you can and not let the volume get low. if you start with 32% hcl, any evaporation will lose acid unless you add water before you start the process. be careful with the fumes emitted while heating.


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## ilikesilver (May 1, 2013)

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jmdlcar said:


> Can you post picture and the amount of foil you got? Can you post picture of the powder and the amount of powder?
> 
> Jack



Yes i will be posting pictures, I did a complete cleanout today while it was nice out. But i was also, clipping more for another run, in my new improved bucket within a bucket. It came with the holes and even handles. wow...

I washed my foils clean and heated on low heat on my hot plate for a while till the water was almost gone, couple spoon fulls let, then let it evaporate in the sun while it was cooling, worked out good. didnt want my coffee pot to break getting it to hot. but by the time it was done, it was getting dark, so i will take pictures tomorrow. I will take pictures of my new fangled bucket within a bucket contraption also. lol


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## ilikesilver (May 1, 2013)

started a new batch today, 3 to 1 ratio, 1 pd of mixed fingers, a few ounces of sim cards, and thee small gold laden boards from phones. everything was depopulated off the phone boards. this is a batch in my new fangled bucket within a bucket, holes and all, will post results tomorrow. later


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## ilikesilver (May 3, 2013)

so a long day of work yesterday, and a long day of work today, had my first real bbq of the spring season *steak of course*.yum Here are the pictures i promised. checked everything out tonight, picked some bare boards out of the bucket and swished it up, should be done by tomorrow.


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## ilikesilver (May 3, 2013)

just one extra pic i took


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## jmdlcar (May 3, 2013)

Hi,

The finger in the coffee pot is that gold in the picture?

Jack


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## ilikesilver (May 3, 2013)

jmdlcar said:


> Hi,
> 
> The finger in the coffee pot is that gold in the picture?
> 
> Jack



yes, the last two pictures, one is the bottom of the coffee pot, which was the first run of fingers. the second picture shows a big foil floating on top of the AP fluid in the buckets. tim


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## jmdlcar (May 3, 2013)

Hi,

That was nice foil let how much gold powder you from that? Did you weigh the foil?

Jack


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## ilikesilver (May 3, 2013)

jmdlcar said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was nice foil let how much gold powder you from that? Did you weigh the foil?
> 
> Jack



havent weighed it yet, mainly because i havent done the refining process yet. And also that was only half the original batch. tim


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## danogarvin123 (May 4, 2013)

Have you completed your batch yet? what were the final production stats.

Process would be the same for pins would it not (w/o buckets of course)? I'm still in the gathering phase and just conducting real small batches mainly to witness reactions and reading up on what I see.Just now started a 15g pin batch, 3:1 AP with bubbler (1st AP try). Pins appear to be all kovar. Solution is clear yellow.

Someone set me straight if "m off course....please

Thanks

Dan


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## ilikesilver (May 4, 2013)

danogarvin123 said:


> Have you completed your batch yet? what were the final production stats.
> 
> Process would be the same for pins would it not (w/o buckets of course)? I'm still in the gathering phase and just conducting real small batches mainly to witness reactions and reading up on what I see.Just now started a 15g pin batch, 3:1 AP with bubbler (1st AP try). Pins appear to be all kovar. Solution is clear yellow.
> 
> ...



well sounds like your on the right track thats what i used was 3 to 1 for the AP mixture. I didnt use a bubbler, normally thats only used durring colder temps if your using it in a none heated space, i believe thats what i have read, but other people use it all the time to speed up the process. I just adjatated it a few times a day and it worked fine. My process of getting the gold foils off the boards is all done as of 8 pm this evening. I was washing the gold foils with water when it started to get to dark, so i will finish tomorrow at some point. Looks like my gold mash to finish the cleaning process with the muratic acid, with be around 2.5 grams to 3 grams. Thats what im hoping for. good luck with yours. tim


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## bswartzwelder (May 5, 2013)

The bubbler keeps the AP solution circulating constantly. You are a lot less likely to have "dead spots" in your solution where is isn't circulating with the bubbler. Back when I was making printed circuit boards as a hobby, I noticed the boards would etch faster if 1. the solution of ferric chloride was heated, and 2. If the solution was agitated by either moving the circuit boards around in the solution or the solution was kept in motion with a bubbler. Same principle.


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## danogarvin123 (May 5, 2013)

I take it that the AP process is a real slow process..especially when using it to dissolve BM's. 15 hours and only see very little dissolving going on. BM that was exposed (not plated with gold) is black and as the wicked witch of the west would say...."I'm melting". Should I be able to see allot of reaction as I do with a NHO3 bath or has my HCL been used up? My test batch was only 15g thus a 75ml/25ml was mixed.


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## kkmonte (May 5, 2013)

danogarvin123 said:


> I take it that the AP process is a real slow process..especially when using it to dissolve BM's. 15 hours and only see very little dissolving going on. BM that was exposed (not plated with gold) is black and as the wicked witch of the west would say...."I'm melting". Should I be able to see allot of reaction as I do with a NHO3 bath or has my HCL been used up? My test batch was only 15g thus a 75ml/25ml was mixed.



It is a slow process, you won't really see any bubbling, etc. What was the strength of your h2o2 and how much did you use (in relationship to your HCl) ? If you had too much of an oxidizer, and if your exposed copper is turning black, you might have dissolved gold in the solution cementing back out on the copper. (fine black powder). (either the gold was already in your solution or you are dissolving some of the new gold you put in).


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## ilikesilver (May 5, 2013)

well got all my bare boards out this morning of the remainder of the first batch, and the total of the second batch. As far as Im conserned the bucket in a bucket works great. Ive washed my foils really well just in water, and have them all together in one big batch sitting in my coffee pot. I let them settle for the day, and then tonight i poured off most of my cleaning water into my cleaning bucket. Im hoping tomorrow after work i can evaporate off the remainder of the water and actually get a good weight of the foils with a descent picture. I need to pick up another gallon of muratic hopefully tomorrow also, depends on what time i get out of work though. till tomorrow


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## danogarvin123 (May 6, 2013)

kkmonte said:


> danogarvin123 said:
> 
> 
> > I take it that the AP process is a real slow process..especially when using it to dissolve BM's. 15 hours and only see very little dissolving going on. BM that was exposed (not plated with gold) is black and as the wicked witch of the west would say...."I'm melting". Should I be able to see allot of reaction as I do with a NHO3 bath or has my HCL been used up? My test batch was only 15g thus a 75ml/25ml was mixed.
> ...



Ken.
My HCL is 32% and H2O2 is 3%. I used 75ml/25ml ratio HCL/H2O2.If you recall I only used 15g on this batch since it's a "get acquainted" with AP process. No powder has dropped out. BM was most likely all kovar (heavy attraction with magnet}. 36 hrs now and solution is real dark but a clear yellow when I tilt it up the beaker. Foil is floating around with plating remaining on some pins. Now when I say "pins" these are extracted from connectors,etc and not from cpu's. What's black is the BM as it dissolves. Steve(Lazor) stated that heating will put Au in solution-slowly but from what I'm seeing is the entire process is extremely slow.


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