# Erbslöh liquid sulfite



## Bluebloomer (Sep 24, 2014)

I ran into a webshop that sells 11 Lbs So2 they call it Erbslöh liquid sulfite with a concentration of 180 gr / L So2.

Could this liquid so2 be used as a precipitant for chloroauric acid ? And should this be used straight up, or should it be dilluted ?

Or would the modern synthetic sodium metabisulfite still be the better option ?


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## solar_plasma (Sep 24, 2014)

There is no such thing as So2 or so2, but you want to write SO2 or better SO2. Sometimes this could be a lethal difference.

Tell us the link, so we can have a look, what it is. Could be liquid SO2 gas, could also be SO2 dissolved in water could be anything else regarding your description.

SMB will form SO2 with HCl, then the SO2 is reducing the gold. It is probably and in most cases as good as the gas, but maybe easier to buy, to store and to handle safely.


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 24, 2014)

Hi Solar,

You are right I will try to write it down the right way in the future because I understand the confusion it might give.

The website is in Dutch, it's from an online home brewer supply store, and from what i understand, the SMB used in precipitating gold, is the same SMB used in winemaking, and this product is the liquid kind.

http://www.brouwland.com/nl/onze-producten/wijnbereiding/stabiliseren-reinigen/reinigingsmiddelen/d/erbsl-h-vloeibare-sulfiet-p18-5-kg#.VCK8Yvl_uVM

All I see is SO² so perhaps you guys can clarify things.

Thanks !


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## solar_plasma (Sep 24, 2014)

The label is written in German. It says: Potassium hydrogen sulfite KHSO3, also called potassium bisulfite. It is a salt dissolved in water.

Since it is a salt of the sulfurous acid, it might work, but I think I never read about this. So, wait, maybe someone else has more information. 

Anyway, I wouldn't use it, since it would add too much water.


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## goldsilverpro (Sep 24, 2014)

A guy I once worked with bubbled SO2 gas through ice water until saturated. He then put the solution in gallon jugs and used it to drop gold. The CRC Handbook says that 228g of SO2 can be dissolved in one liter of water at 0 deg. C. According to Lazersteve's equations, a gram of SO2 will precipitate about 2g of gold, under perfect conditions with no nitric present.


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## solar_plasma (Sep 24, 2014)

Ok, then the KHSO3 solution is obviously concentrated enough, not to add too much water.

edit: I searched for the more common sodium bisulfite and here it is: http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8219#p76621

Your potassium bisulfite, though, could give gold contamination problems with some pgms. There is an insoluble or less soluble potassium-pgm complex, if I remember right. But for the recovery/first refining it should be as good as my potassium metabisulfite as far as you do not work with heavy pgm contaminants.


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 25, 2014)

Thank you for explaining.

So potassium bisulfite can be used as a precipitant to drop Au, but SMB is the prefered way to go. because it has the tendency to drop only the gold, where KHSO

If the liquid sulfite came in a 1 L bottle I would try it, bince since comes in a 5 L jug it is way more then I need, and it would drop between 5 - 10 kg of gold ? 
Wish I had that much scrap.. :lol: 

If you use KHSO3 as a precipitant you would have to re-refine the dropped gold due to possible other precious metals contimination.

Sounds like I should better stay away from this liquid and just use the SMB.

I read this on finishing.com:



> Na2SO4 is better for dropping the gold (free electrons greater reactivity)


http://www.finishing.com/345/32.shtml

Is that true, or would it be the same as the potassium sulfite meaning it would also unwillingly drop other precious metals with the gold ?


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## solar_plasma (Sep 25, 2014)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=14063#p141201

That's why you have found the most probably only place in the world, you find all needed and valid information for free.

And now it's time to learn to use the search function and the advanced search. Btw. there are threads, that will help with using them effectively.


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 26, 2014)

Solar, you're right, that was careless of me.. I was asuming something, and assumption is the mother of all .... Silly me..

Sulfates are bad, sulfites is the way to go.

So, if I understand correctly:

- The liquid might work but also might contaminate the gold with other pgm's if present. I would have to re-refine if using it.

- Na2S2O5 is the most common way to go, it's called SMB, Sodium Metabisulfite or sodium pyrosulfite. It has a 65-67% S02 basis. (according to some data sheet)

- NaHsO3 is sodium bisulfite, it's a different chemical but it works exactly as SMB. It has a 58% SO2 basis (according to some data sheet)

- Na2SO3 /O4 is sodium sulfite made from 2 NaOH & SO2 but from what I see at some MD5 sheets it contains a lot of more traces of other metals.

- So2 is sulphur dioxide and should be "bubbled" into the AR solution..

Sodium sulfites work by releasing So2 into the solution when it comes in contact with the HCL and that will precipitate the gold.
So, the highest afinity with So2 and the least amount of cation traces would be the ideal precipitant ?

It might sound a bit crude but I'm trying to understand despite the different names you read here and there, and the different formula's they use some times, it gets realy confusing sometimes.

With straight Aqua Regia SMB would be the best way to approach it, but does HCL/CL prefer the same method or would Na2SO3/4 or NaHSO3 be the better method to aproach it and why ?


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## solar_plasma (Sep 26, 2014)

Since those precipitants are not contaminated with PMs, I would expect them all to be fine. Though I would prefer to do as most of the others do. This means normally SMB for 1. and 2. refining. It has been stated, that the precipitant FeSO4 (copperas) is better with highly copper contaminated solutions. I didn't try this, yet. Further, it is sometimes stated, that oxalic acid is doing a good job in the second refining. This I have tried. Seems to be true. 

Though if you are working absolutely cleanly and accurately at all processes, it is obviously possible to get best results only using SO2 or SO2 in situ (SMB) in all refinings.


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## butcher (Sep 26, 2014)

When refining twice (as is normally needed) using different reducing agents with each refining. You can get a better product, assuming you also include good washing techniques.

Read Hoke's book on this subject, it has also ben discussed several times on the forum, reading this discussions can be very helpful.

For good washing procedures read Harold's post on getting gold pure and shinning (found in the help needed section).

Using a different reducing agent, that will not precipitate a metal the other might, like using ferrous sulfate, in the first refining, (and a sulfite) like sodium metabisulfite in the second refining.

Using this method of using a different reducing agent with each refining, you may not see a need to use oxalic acid in a second refining,unless you just wish to ...


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 27, 2014)

Thank you Solar, and Butcher this helps. Just found a webstore that sells ferrous sulfate in a 5 kg container for little over a Euro per kg, and the SMB (sold as PH down) for 5 Euro per kg, so I just bought a 5 KG container for both. Elsewere they charge you around 5 Euro per 250 gram.. 
Only thing I can't find here in the Netherlands is stannous chloride. You can only buy it in bulk it seems.

Since I found this old tin pot that weights in at 484 gram (along with a silver pot that weights 464 gram, always nice to find) could I use that old tin pot to make stannous chloride or would the Pb in the tin alloy be a problem? I dissolved a small piece in 3 ml nitric acid in a test tube, and got a violent reaction. After the reaction stopped I saw these white salts at the bottom, a sponge like salt that floats to the top of the test tube, and small black flakes. I asume the black precipitant is Pb..?

I have several copies of Hokes now, but it is sometimes realy hard to underdtand and put it into context since I'm not English bit still it contains a treasure of knowledge. 

Still wondering about this; SMB is the best precipitant for A/R for obvious reasons now, but is SMB also the best precipitant for HCL / CL ? Or would it more prefere to use FeSo4 or a different sulfite ?

Can't find too much about that subject. Since I have pounds of material with fingers, that will yield a nice amount of foils, I read that HCL / CL would be the best approacht to dissolve the foils, and for the second refining A/R should be used. So what would be the prefered precipitant to use in a HCL/CL solution and why ?


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## solar_plasma (Sep 27, 2014)

You are thinking too much!

Read, choose the most common processes on the board, read, ....learn by reading, not by asking.

Hoke is the basis. Hoke is 10%. The other 90% is the forum. Read both.

You do not need any chemicals, as long as you have such questions!

Dissolving tin in nitric is nonsense. To make stannous chloride the tin has to be dissolved in HCl, not HNO3! Tin and HNO3 gives insoluble metastannic acid, - something we mostly avoid, because it makes extra work and things more difficult.

If you absolutely want to use pure tin, you can filter off your metastannic acid, wash it with boiling water, incinerate it and redissolve it in HCl.
But:
Lead and copper in tin alloys are no problem for making a working stannous chloride test solution. If you have got solids in your test solution, you can decant the clear solution. Even silver can be removed this way. Add a piece of tin to make the solution more stable. Use a standard gold solution to check the test solution each time before using it.

As you can read in every second thread in this forum, SMB is fine with both AR and HCL/NaClO(chlorox). For deeper information, what happens,read the following thread:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13278


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 27, 2014)

Solar, the piece of tin was dissolved to make sure it was tin / lead or silver, it was the only way I could think of to identify the material.
I understand that Sn has to be dissolved in hot HCL to make stannous chloride. I just wanted to know if dissolving a tin alloy in hot HCL would be a good source to make SnCl2..

Since I am living in a country that is get more expensive to live in every dag, I just want to have to chemicals on hand, becasue when taxes raise next year, I might easily pay 20% more than the chemicals cost now. I just want to make sure I buy the right products.

And with all do respect, I can not find anything about how or why the smb works in a hcl/cl solution. For A/R I now understand WHY smb is the best precipitant, but I cannot find any documentation as to why and how SMB reacts with hcl/cl. Perhaps it's not important, and we are way off topic anyway so thanks again for explaining why the liquid sulfite might not be the best precipitant, becasue that was my main question.

With Hokes I sometimes just don't understand the context, so I read and understand the words but I can't seem to make sense of the paragraph I read so I only understand about 50-60 % of what I read while the other 40% might explain the context, so I'm missing out on some important details that way. You guys here explain things much more and that makes it a lot easier to understand.
My English is self tought mainly through chatting with people all over the world on the internet in it's early days, like ICQ. So I can read and speak English but if things get real technical like the MCSA training a few years back, I get lost in translation and have to google a lot of words to understand the context it's used in.

So, I'm sorry if my questions sound stupid but it all helps me to fully understand Hokes and underand why certains must not be done a certain way, that to me sometimes is just as important as doing things the right way..


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## jason_recliner (Sep 27, 2014)

Bluebloomer said:


> And with all do respect, I can not find anything about how or why the smb works in a hcl/cl solution. For A/R I now understand WHY smb is the best precipitant, but I cannot find any documentation as to why and how SMB reacts with hcl/cl. Perhaps it's not important, and we are way off topic anyway so thanks again for explaining why the liquid sulfite might not be the best precipitant, becasue that was my main question.



To my mind, I believe HCl/Cl and HCl/HNO3 should be pretty much identical when it comes to precipitation methods. I welcome being corrected by more the chemistry oriented, but this is how it makes sense to me, even though I know that it may not be entirely accurate from a science point of view.

Ideally, AR is made of HCl with just enough nitric to dissolve the gold. Ideally you will have no nitric left over. And you can use a button after dissolution to ensure that is the case. You're basically left with gold dissolved in excess HCl.

Ideally, HCl/Cl is made of HCl with at just a tiny bit more bleach than is required to dissolve the gold. Too much bleach and you'll kill off the acid (raise the pH), but a little extra is ok. Sunlight and heat will drive off excess free chlorine. Again, you're basically left with gold dissolved in excess HCl.


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## solar_plasma (Sep 27, 2014)

Thanks for clarification. I am sorry, if I reacted too harsh. 

The most common gold compounds we get in solution are 

AuCl3 (by using chlorine), 
H[AuCl4] (by using AR) or 
Na[AuCl4] (fx. by using HCl/NaClO), 

all will be precipitated well with the common precipitants.

And I didn't say, your erbslöh liquid won't be good. It is obviously concentrated enough. In the link I posted, read lazersteve's post: http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13278 mentioning hydogensulfite

So, if it is cheap and easy to get for you, this might be the right solution for you. Well, beside this theoretically potassium problem.


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 27, 2014)

Jason, thank you, it is exactly what I understood but now I have it confirmed as I always doubt myself and in fact sometimes overthink things too much, making things sometimes unnecessary complicated so I seek a lot of confirmation.. So I'm happy that I am one step closer now.

Solar, it's oke, I know I ask a lot and perhaps if the subject was ICT or growing medicinal cannabis I would react the same way on occasion as newbies almost always try to re-invent the wheel.. 
Thank you for all the information you have given me so far, it realy helped me get along.

I am not rushing into things as I have learned my lesson well when I dropped 35% h202 into an A/P solution and got this vulvano eruption that messed up my kitchen sink... Still have pounds and pounds of material to scrap, sort and figure out what metals they contain and how best to approach those parts. Also for later on I have over a pound of dried salts in many different colors from my previous FAILED experiments. Those salts contain cemented silver, silver chloride, gold foils and dissolved gold, Cu, metastannic acid and iron, so when I'm "expercienced" enough I might process it the right way.

So I take notes of everything you guys explain to me becasue as we here say, written down once is twice remembered (if the translation makes any sense at all)

So thank you all for being this patient and giving me so much valuable information !

Gilbert


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## butcher (Sep 27, 2014)

Do not do any of this in your home or in your kitchen sink.


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## solar_plasma (Sep 27, 2014)

Most metal salts are more or less toxic, many are cancerogens or at least strong allergens. As soon as anything is bubbling, small particles will enter the air. Most processes can evolve vapors or gasses, that will attack your lungs and leave you with damages like lung emphysema the rest of your life or produce a lung oedema that could kill you even days after exposure. It is absolutely forbidden to eat, drink or smoke in a chemical laboratory and also using any "lab ware" that could be confused with kitchenware should be avoided or marked clearly, so it will never be used again for food. 

Safety gear stays in the working area or another safe place.

Wash hands, whenever you leave the lab.

Making those points a ritual, it will eliminate the risk of spreading contamination and of the incorporation of toxins. 

*Most accidents happen at home and in people's spare time, - at home, they do things, they never would do this way at work. Always expect humans inclusively yourself to do the most stupid mistakes, you can think of and prevent them to cause serious consequences.*


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## kurtak (Sep 27, 2014)

Bluebloomer said:


> and got this vulvano eruption that messed up my kitchen sink
> 
> So thank you all for being this patient and giving me so much valuable information !
> 
> Gilbert



:shock: :shock: :shock: 

Gilbert

You should not be doing "ANY" of this in your house. (that's a period at the end of that sentence!!!

You are working with toxic stuff that produces toxic "fumes" --- & those fumes settle & collect on ever & all surfaces in the home 

You really need to set up a lab - a shed in the back yard or in a garage (that is not attached to the house) & your lab should be under constant negative air pressure (meaning old air should be getting vented out with a fan with allowance for fresh air to come in through a vent) - think fume hood - a good fume hood will provide the negative pressure for the room (lab)

At the very least you should be doing "ALL" work concerning open container of chemicals out side "ALWAYS"

that's valuable information!

Kurt


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 28, 2014)

Hi Kurt,

Thank you for that information, I had to find out the hard way that it wasn't safe that way...

I was so enthusiatic that I overlooked every safety aspect, aswell as personal safety, I didn't measure the volumes and I underestimated the toxic fumes.

I learned a lot from my initial mistakes and once the new growroom I'm building is done, I will move everything into a 6 feet growtent, with a 125 cfm exhaust fan on a home made 2 ft fumehood and daylight CFL's for good lighting. It's a sort of minilab with a constant vacuum in the tent, if the door is closed.

Since 6 ft isn't that big it'll force me not to do too many things at once, so I can focus only on 1 or 2 projects at a time. It's near the bathroom so in case of emergency I can run straight from the "lab" into the bathroom. Fumes are scrubbed thru a carbon filter and pushed outside the house.
The floor will be made with a wooden frame with pond foil so any spills remain in the flood pool. 

That's the plan, but first I have to finish my new growroom. For now I quit all activities regarding gold recovery, and still have pounds of material to scrap and sort, build the indoor growroom, reading Hokes book and some other books and still go to work 4 days a week.. 

So, a lot of work, and a lot of fun..


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## jason_recliner (Sep 28, 2014)

When you say "growroom", I get mental images of "chemistry" outside the scope of gold recovery/refining. Especially with daylight lamps. But I know people from around the world use different terms and so I cast no aspersions. Moving right along...

It's the fact that you think this ok because it's only 6ft and it's near the bathroom that I feel the need to reiterate this simple and clear directive from one of the most highly regarded members here (emphasis added).


butcher said:


> Do not do any of this in your home or in your kitchen sink.


You're an adult, you can do what you like. But I do strongly suggest you heed this warning.


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## butcher (Sep 28, 2014)

Bluebloomer,
Holding off with the lab work, spending time on studying, collecting and mechanically preparing your scrap, until get or fix up a more proper lab environment to work in, and understand more about working safely and dealing with waste, is a very wise decision.

Actually this will put you closer to your goal of getting those gold buttons.

The time spent studying will pay off, in the long run, like in the race of the turtle and the Hare. With less wasted time spent on dealing with problems, loosing values, Saving you money on materials, knowing what you really need, or do not need, giving you a better understanding of what is needed and of knowing more about how to do it, and how to do it safely.

You can gain the education needed (which is really the main tool to the key of success), and you can collect, and prepare your scrap in the mean time.

This is not much different than doing other things, like, lets say you are not a mechanic and want to learn to fix your car yourself, it is better to study before tearing your engine all apart, getting understanding of how the work is done, and learning how to do it, getting some practice with small repair (or small experiments), waiting to see what tools, and parts you need before spending all your money on tools, and parts, you may find you really do not need in the long run, spending time learning how to work on the car safely, so that the car does not fall on you while your working under it...

Ferrous sulfate should be green crystals. Many times they sell ferrous sulfate in garden supply sections that is oxidized (white or brown), it will not work to precipitate gold from solution (it is actually no longer a true ferrous sulfate, but a form of oxidized iron sulfate), you can easily make your own ferrous sulfate, (with a little study on the forum), and ferrous sulfate is just as good at precipitating gold as sodium metabisulfite, both of these have different properties, and you can have specific reasons to choose one over the other, during a refining, or you may wish to use one in the first refining and the other in the second refining to get a better final product...

Education is the main tool you need, spending time gaining that tool, will put you closer to getting the job done.


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## Bluebloomer (Sep 28, 2014)

Jason, the kitchensink was a big mistake and I learned a lot since then. My 16 feet terrace is nice but with the winds we get here it's not a safe place to work unless I make some sort of windshield or something. 
But you make me rethink the in-house idea, so perhaps I should look at the option to build a similar idea on my terrace. I could make a portable fumehood, and place a wooden kitchen top to setup as a workbench. 
I think that might be the safest option then, outdoor, big terrace and still shielded from the rain but not from the wind. Only downfall would be that I can't keep the electrical equipment outdoor as nights are humid and moist.
Butcher, thanks. I might have wild idea's sometime, as this topic alone might sugest, but you guys have helped me along great and when I realized how irresponsible I was acting I decided it was time to quit and do my proper homework. 
The ferrous sulfate is bought from a chem lab, same as the SMB, wich is sold as a PH down for pools and paint btw. So I assume they are indeed green crystals. I bought 5 kg for 7 dollar from a shop that supplies chemicals for paint and pools, so it's not a garden variant. If it's oxidized I will return it, we don't need rust..
Preparing all scrap will take me thru the winter I hope, so I can work on a safe and proper workspace / lab later. I don't have a basement, and I don't have a free bedroom I could use so I have to improvise a bit, but the roofed terrace seems like the best option.

Despite the major incident where I poured 35% h202 in an A/P solution no further accidents have happened, no chemcial burns, no spills, no unsafe dumping of waste. 
So I have to rethink my lab idea well, store all acids and salts for a later date and focus on acquiring all the necessary knowledge. Still might post some questions but that's only to get clarrification on a subject.

Once again, thank you all ! This forum is great and so are all you guys willing to help newbies, that so often have the same questions over and over.. :roll:


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## butcher (Sep 28, 2014)

Bluebloomer,
I deleted your reference to the use of drugs or "pain medication". Which it is not related to recovery and refining...
In fact you should be careful yourself of being under the influence of any drug, pain medication, or other intoxicant, that can impair your judgment, when working with these dangerous chemicals, or fumes...


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## Bluebloomer (Oct 3, 2014)

Hi butcher, I understand.. Got a little carried away I guess..


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