# Keyboard mylars smelting



## kjavanb123 (Feb 14, 2016)

All,

A major scrap yard owner is sending me materials to do toll refine for him. First batch we did was 6kg keyboard mylars.

6kg mylars prior to pyrolysis,



Pyrolysis result,



Smelting completed, silver is cooled and removed from furnace,



Result was 68.2g of impure silver,



I am going to dissolve this silver in nitric acid, I suspect few grams of Palladium in it as well, then precipitate Pd using DMG, and silver using copper and melt it to see exactly how much got recovered from keyboard mylars.

Regards
Kj


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## Grelko (Feb 14, 2016)

Palladium in mylars? This is the first I've heard about this. This is interesting, If you can please post the results when you are finished.


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## Long Shot (Feb 14, 2016)

Indeed, interested in the Palladium thing as well, please let us know. I have a fair stack of mylars (not 6 kg though) and definitely do not want to miss out on that.


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 14, 2016)

All 

I should apologize for putting that statement like that, let me clearify the palladium in silver recovered from mylars I suspect is furnace contamination from our previous smelting operation where we re-smelted slags and litharge from another smelter that we recovered 38g of Pt and Pd. not from mylars.

I will do update the numbers today.

Regards
Kj


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## wrmahaff (Feb 29, 2016)

kjavanb123 said:


> All
> 
> I should apologize for putting that statement like that, let me clearify the palladium in silver recovered from mylars I suspect is furnace contamination from our previous smelting operation where we re-smelted slags and litharge from another smelter that we recovered 38g of Pt and Pd. not from mylars.
> 
> ...



Any updated numbers?


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## kjavanb123 (Feb 29, 2016)

Hi,

Sorry for not updating that yield number. Have been busy week. The yield from 6kg mylar sheets was 64g purified silver which we dropped as silver chloride, then using zinc powder and sulphuric acid converted to silver metal powder.

So we got 10.6 grams per kg of mylar sheets or 4.8g per lbs of mylar sheets.

Regards
Kj


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## Anonymous (Mar 3, 2016)

How many mylars are there to the KG approximately?


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## kjavanb123 (Mar 3, 2016)

No idea how many mylars equal to a kg, maybe weigh one and divide 1000 by that weight to give you number of mylars per kg.


Regards
Kj


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## Anonymous (Mar 3, 2016)

kjavanb123 said:


> No idea how many mylars equal to a kg, maybe weigh one and divide 1000 by that weight to give you number of mylars per kg.
> 
> 
> Regards
> Kj



Thanks for being so helpful, if I had one to weigh I would. Hence why I asked....


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## kjavanb123 (Mar 3, 2016)

Here is an old post, by me, there are some numbers tha might help you out,

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4924&p=191579&hilit=Mylar#p191579

Regards
Kj


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## Anonymous (Mar 3, 2016)

Thanks Kevin I found the info I needed on that thread you linked me to. I also found that you were getting 24g per Kg of Mylars using the method on your old thread as opposed to the 10.6g using this method. 

I asked about how many mylars there were to the Kg because something in the back of my mind was suggesting this 10.6g yield was too low. What do you think? 

Jon


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## nickvc (Mar 3, 2016)

I suspect some silver is still tied up in the flux, smelting is an art as much as anything, it's a long learning curve to get it spot on with temperatures, time and various mixes of fluxes to consider.
We have seen cross contamination in other projects where not all the values were extracted on the first attempt, I think Kevin needs to tinker with some of the variables to improve his process.


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## kjavanb123 (Mar 3, 2016)

Spaceship,

I realize that my yield for keyboard mylars using dilute nitric acid is different from these samples we smelted. I can think of two possiblities, one, our furnace is large that can handle large lots of 100kg or more, so losses might happen when we smelted 6kg mylars, two, as it with x-ray films, the keyboards mylars might have different types and therefore different yields?

Nickvc,
My smelting operator has been doing this with anode slimes, jewler sweeps and minerals for more than 25 years and I have seen his work with my materials before, back then we even re-melted the slags, but that only produced trace amount, like 600kg slags and lithrage from many smelting, only produced 1g gold, which tells me we got 99% of gold there was in our furnace.

Regards
Kj


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## Smack (Mar 3, 2016)

Two different mylars will vary just like two different circuit boards so you should expect different yields.


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## Anonymous (Mar 3, 2016)

Smack said:


> Two different mylars will vary just like two different circuit boards so you should expect different yields.



True Smack, however the average yields on mylars are pretty well documented, so based upon that there's a loss going on here. Sometimes being helpful means being honest- regardless of whether it's something someone wants to hear or not. Kevin wants to operate this as a service for people to send him product and refine for them, and therefore it has to be a process that doesn't involve over 50% potential losses wouldn't you agree?

It needs more work, and I am sure that this work will be put in by Kevin and his team, but would you send your material on a toll basis to anyone who had 50% of the gross yields attained by others? That's rhetorical because you wouldn't because you're not stupid.

Jon


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## kjavanb123 (Mar 3, 2016)

All,

I am going to do a simple test once I receieve that large batch of industrial fime from gas company. We process 5kg films using sodium hypochlorite method, 5kg cyanide method, and 5kg pyrolysis and smelting, that should test my furnace efficency on same materials.

Again, when smelt a batch, we keep the slags and even litharge of the that smelt for the client, he can keep it there, we can do re-melt with his slags and litharge plus fresh lead ignot, so whatever metals left in the slag or litharge, or even in furnace will be recovered.
We did the samr thing with RAMs, as I was curios myself to see how well furnace worked, remelted the slags and litharge and only got 0.7g of gold.

Regards
Kj


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## Smack (Mar 4, 2016)

Right, I wasn't saying the yields were on par, just saying don't expect the same results from mixed anything. Do expect different results every time.


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## nickvc (Mar 4, 2016)

Kevin I'm not trying to put you or your operation down far from it but were it me I'd be having assays done on the waste fluxes to check that all the values were out at least for the first few with new product that's never been processed by your team that way before.
If your stuck for cheap, fast and reliable assays send me a message and I'll give you the contact details.


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## Anonymous (Mar 4, 2016)

kjavanb123 said:


> All,
> 
> I am going to do a simple test once I receieve that large batch of industrial fime from gas company. We process 5kg films using sodium hypochlorite method, 5kg cyanide method, and 5kg pyrolysis and smelting, that should test my furnace efficency on same materials.



Great, that makes a lot of sense especially as it's a relatively new process to the team. This way you'll be able to track your progress in an analytical manner and that can only be a good thing 8) 8) 

Jon


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## kurtak (Mar 4, 2016)

Smack said:


> Two different mylars will vary just like two different circuit boards so you should expect different yields.



That is true but only to a point - when there is a dramatic difference (per kg) in recovery between processing "similar" material by way of one method & another there is good reason to believe the method that is "way" under is suffering a loss somewhere/somehow so you better start looking for why & where (which is what Jon & Nick are pointing out)

In this case Kevin got (plus/minus) 20 g/kg Ag using the nitric process - & in the smelting process he only got (roughly) 10 g/kg --- that's (roughly) a 50% difference --- that is unacceptable --- I could understand a 5 - 10% difference 

Its the same point I was making in this thread :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=23508&p=247788#p247788

Kevin has invested a great deal of time & money in this - it not a hobby for him - therefore Kevin owes it not only to himself but to his clients as well to figure out if he is suffering a (substantial) loss - & if so why &/or where 

Kurt


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## kjavanb123 (Mar 4, 2016)

Thanks all, I will report my analysis on slags, and yields on simar batches both chemical process and smelting.

Regards
Kj


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## Anonymous (Mar 4, 2016)

kurtak said:


> Kevin has invested a great deal of time & money in this - it not a hobby for him - therefore Kevin owes it not only to himself but to his clients as well to figure out if he is suffering a (substantial) loss - & if so why &/or where
> 
> Kurt



I agree completely Kurt which is why I'm always blunt with him. I dearly want him to succeed and that takes a structured, analytical approach with hard data and a well defined process.


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## Smack (Mar 4, 2016)

LazerSteve had a post on incineration of mylars a long time ago with good explanation on how to do it. It might be the better way to go.


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=711&p=6388&hilit=mylar#p6388


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## Anonymous (Mar 4, 2016)

He sure did but Kevin is smelting them.


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## nickvc (Mar 4, 2016)

spaceships said:


> He sure did but Kevin is smelting them.



Well what can I say. The offer of cheap assays is still open, just doing the same process again will only reveal what it yields not what's actually there, if the fluxing or heat is off then gather a few grams more.
Kevin I'm trying to help.. The fact your man has done this for however long doesn't mean he has got it 100% right, you want more customers so give them a great deal, make sure you recover at least 95% of the values and charge for the effort, giving poor returns will kill your business in days!


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## upcyclist (Mar 4, 2016)

kjavanb123 said:


> My smelting operator has been doing this with anode slimes, jewler sweeps and minerals for more than 25 years and I have seen his work with my materials before, back then we even re-melted the slags, but that only produced trace amount, like 600kg slags and lithrage from many smelting, only produced 1g gold, which tells me we got 99% of gold there was in our furnace.


I've seen you express similar logic before, Kevin. I would like to offer a critique, and in the friendliest way possible. When you say you got 99% of the gold present on the first try, that's not quite correct. You got 99% of the gold *you *recovered on the first try, vice the second. 

I'll give you an example, but I'll use myself as the example because you have more skill than I do, and it's easier to make fun of myself 

I'm going to process ten AMD 486 chips. We'll say my methods stink (probably true), and I get back 0.5g of gold. So I take all of my waste materials and reprocess them, only getting 0.06g the second time (we'll pretend I can actually collect and measure something that small). From my numbers and your logic, I could say that I have a 90% recovery rate, because I collected 90% of 0.56g the first time around. But if we look at the expected yield for 10 of those chips, we know that *I should* have gotten 1.08 grams*. 

In the end, I really only had 46% recovery (0.5g out of an expected 1.08g). But if I only compare the first take to the second take, it looks like I did much better. I exaggerated the numbers for effect--I'm certainly not saying you lose half your PMs. What I am saying is that your "success rate" does not take environmental and procedural losses into effect. The other posters have suggested reasons for this; I'm only pointing out the logic.

Hope that helps,

--Eric

*data according to Tzoax's display, may not be 100% accurate. I'm just using it as a theoretical expected recovery.


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## nickvc (Mar 4, 2016)

Nice post Eric, we are all trying to help Kevin and sometimes it feels like we are just been critical, with precious metals people get really odd, they want all the values less charges not 90% of the values less charges or worse.
Kevin this is your living get it right or you will go down still saying yes but my results say this, assay your fluxes and keep your customers or ignore my comments and lose them, it's easier to admit you haven't recovered the full values and will sort it than say it's all that's there from my results when they know different. This is not about cents but dollars and you need to prove you can deliver, trust is easily lost and hard to gain, one slip maybe, two your out!


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## kjavanb123 (Mar 5, 2016)

All,

Thanks for your comments and analysis. I take pride in what I do, and I treat all my clients lots as if they were my own. I will take note on all of your comments and advise and will report back.

Regards
Kj


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## NoIdea (Sep 23, 2016)

Evening All - the pyrolysis of mylars can produce lower yields than expected, some of the silver/silver oxide becomes mobile in the gas phase and will be lost through the exit end of your reactor, I did this once and found the silver had seeded, into a weird looking blob, at the coolest point of the exit hole, how much I had lost is unknown. I am not sure how to over come this when doing just mylars, I do mine with other stuff that needs pyrolysis, and I make sure the mylars are at the opposite end to the exit port, hoping any seeding will occur on the other material present.

Regards

Deano


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## kjavanb123 (Sep 23, 2016)

Hi Deano,

Nice to have you back. So that explains why the yields I got is drastically lower than expectes from the same materials.

I never gotten a chance to smelt another batch. I have used cyanide on commercial x-rays used by gas company with excellent results.

Regards
Kj


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