# new laws in Alabama



## Geo

new laws in recycling take effect state wide August 1, 2012. you cant sell catalytic converters any more. you sell the car with the cat still attached but the price doesnt change. you cant sell copper/aluminum radiators from air conditioning units, only licensed dealers can sell them. you cant sell burned copper wire at all any where unless its from a burned out building and you must be the owner of the property. its also a crime to hold or possess these materials after August 15. theres much more but this is whats going to effect the market here the most, i think.

http://www.scraplaws.com/scrap-laws-by-state.php?stateid=AL


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## element47.5

Wow, those are pretty stringent regulations. Illegal to possess burned copper wire..?

Are our laws now made by crack addicts and meth heads?

Nope, just Congress.


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## silversaddle1

Those laws will never stand up in court. If you legally own something that is legal to purchase, you have the right to sell it as you see fit.


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## jeneje

Here in TN you have to wait 5 to 7 days on copper wire and cat's to get your money. AC installer are the only ones who can sell AC stuff. Its a never ending battle for recyclers.
Ken


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## NobleMetalWorks

I almost made the mistake and posted something about politics.

Geo, I am not sure what I would do if I lived in a State that was attempting to enforce laws of the kind you posted about. Wait, who am I kidding, I live in California.

I really hope this isn't a trend we are going to see develop across the country.

Whatever this is, it cannot be good.

Scott


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## jeneje

SBrown said:


> I almost made the mistake and posted something about politics.
> 
> Geo, I am not sure what I would do if I lived in a State that was attempting to enforce laws of the kind you posted about. Wait, who am I kidding, I live in California.
> 
> I really hope this isn't a trend we are going to see develop across the country.
> 
> Whatever this is, it cannot be good.
> 
> Scott


Scott, just to let you know i think it is coming to all States, GA is the next one on the list, the company i sell my ALum to told me they are trying to enforce such regulations there also.

I too don't want to post about politics, but we all can read between the lines.
Ken


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## ericrm

well well well ,i doubt theyr is a cie in the us that will put a guy on the freon recovery...looklike chinese will receive a few container of ac once again...


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## Barren Realms 007

Is it relly about poitics?

What are they regulating, the three main ares of theft.

1. Copper wire, if it can't be burnt then it can be identified when it goes to the scrap yards.

2. Cat's, If the scrap yard can't buy them then the thief's have no way to sell them.

3. A/C coil's, same as above if they can't sell it why steal it.

This might not be coming totaly from the Government. How much pull in congress do the insurance companies have? Who pay's for this when the insurance companies have to cover this theft. YOU DO with the premiums you pay. You are looking at $1,100-2,000 cost to replace an A/C condenser. And $1,000 in damges is nothing when it comes to a thief going into a house or commercial building and ripping wires and pipes out to get the copper.

I'm not for new laws either, but if these are strictly enforced they might save YOU thousands of dollars. How many scrappers will this remove from the food chain allowing you access to more material?


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## NobleMetalWorks

The answer isn't in creating laws that prevent honest people from making an honest living, by scraping. The solution would lie in a better, more educated and larger police force. Or to simply require people who sell scrap to show an ID, and record where they claim the scrap came from. Over time the people who are stealing will match up with the people who have been stolen from. There are many many different ways of stopping theft, but making new laws doesn't stop people from stealing, it stops them from selling it through legitimate channels and forces them under ground where I guarantee you they will be difficult to locate, and the theft continues. And where can an underground scrapper sell large quantities? Only outside the US. So now our scrap goes to another country and helps their economy.

If you regulate the recycling industry, then the only people making money are the people who win the contracts to recycle, and guess who's campaign funds they donate to, they can also afford lobbyists, do you have any idea how many Chinese backed lobbyists there are lobbying for stricter laws in the US, for recycling? Forcing the scrap to be sold overseas? When I was mixed up with International Trade, 10 years ago the Chinese were gobbling up all our non ferrous HMS 1 and 2. You couldn't sell them enough, I can only imagine what it is today.

I hope this didn't straddle the realm of politics too much, if so I apologize.

Scott


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## Geo

theres a large aluminum melting operation close by, i imagine they will have a large spike in copper/aluminum rads to process (until they get caught). the law does not cover burned copper pipe. if a person was willing to operate outside the law, they would be able to obtain these dirt cheap because they cant be sold legally. melt the aluminum into ingots and sell the metal separately. its like scott said, people will go underground to sell if thats what they are willing to do. its really just going to be a driving force in the illegal trade in metals.

also, cats will be dirt cheap for the same reason. it would be very tempting for someone that knows how to process them to buy them illegally and process the PGM and sell the stainless steel hulls for scrap metal. where the scrap yard was buying them for over $100 apiece on some models, a man could buy them for a quarter of that now or even less and make a fortune (until they got caught).


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## Palladium

Welcome to Alabama where the state flower is a satellite dish. :shock: 


Alabama marble is considered the purest and whitest in the world. It has been used in buildings such as the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C.
It is Illegal to play Dominoes on Sunday.
It is illegal to maim oneself to escape duty.
The star blue quartz is the state's official gemstone.
Montgomery is the capital and the birthplace of the Confederate States of America.
The Confederate flag was designed and first flown in Alabama in 1861.
Baseball player Hank Aaron was born in Mobile in 1934.
It is illegal to wear a mask in public.
The world's first Electric Trolley System was introduced in Montgomery in 1886.
The Monarch butterfly is the state's official insect.
In Alabama Incestous marriages are legal.
Putting salt on a railroad track may be punishable by death.
Baseball player Willie Howard Mays was born in Westfield in 1931.
The pecan is the Alabama's official nut.
It is illegal to wear a fake moustache that causes laughter in church.
It is illegal to have an ice cream cone in your back pocket at anytime.
In Jasper It is illegal for a husband to beat his wife with a stick larger in diameter than his thumb.
It is illegal to sell peanuts in Lee County after sundown on Wednesdays.
Bear wrestling matches are prohibited. (Statewide).
Men may not spit in front of the opposite sex.
*and now it is illegal to sell copper!!!!*


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## silversaddle1

And yes, that one cracks me up. How can you ID burnt wire? How can you ID unburnt wire? Prove it's stolen. Does wire have a serial number on it now? How do you prove wire is yours? It all looks the same. More intrusive gobberment crap laws that ain't gonna change a thing.


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## Smack

That's representative gov. for ya


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## jeneje

Smack said:


> That's representative gov. for ya


And now we know the rest of the story... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## 4metals

Possibly it is an attempt on the governments part to stop the burning off of the insulation and the black cloud of nasty unburnt toxins that results. I would assume if you have one of those machines that strips the wire and chops it into rice sized pieces to separate the insulation from the copper, that business will go on as normal. 

Just my opinion which is partly derived from a neighbor in Pennsylvania who burns the insulation off and I can see and smell it while he is at it.


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## Smack

They broke out the lazy man's tool and wrote another law. Too hard for them to police and catch people doing stupid things so they resort to what's convenient or easy. Just another form of cherry picking.


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## Geo

most of this stuff is already in place at major scrap yards. i believe its targeted more at the guy buying scrap on the street to resell. my brother is one such business.theres no way he will be able to comply. of coarse he will operate under the law until he gets caught the first time. he delivers a couple of tons a week excluding steel. theres no way he can convince them he is doing all the work himself and is not buying it.


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## Harold_V

The harsh reality is that if citizens do not police themselves, they will be policed by others. A good example is the comment made by 4metals, whereby a nearby neighbor is involved in burning insulation from wire. The resulting fumes are very toxic and destructive to the environment. The guy involved is a moron, for he's inviting intervention and heavy fines when he is caught. 

The real negative of this scenario is the fact that laws that are drawn up often do nothing more than inconvenience those who are already in compliance, while the criminal goes merrily on his way, suffering no effect at all. The only argument that can then be raised is the fact that the law can then be applied to inflict punishment on the offender. That rarely happens, but the citizen in compliance still must pay the price of greater restraint. We see that everyday. A good example is the use of personal checks. Mine are never bad, yet I am scrutinized as if I am a crook. 

There is a particular segment of society that will work far harder at breaking the law than they will at upholding the law. They will often commit a criminal act that is far more difficult and lower paying than an honest job. Anything that presents a challenge, to them, must be addressed. They simply feel they are entitled to live beyond the law. That, in turn, gives lawmakers cause to enact yet more stringent laws, as if, somehow, law breakers will heel if the laws are stringent enough. Anyone with a sense of rationality will understand that is, of course, nonsense, as criminals are criminals because they choose to live outside the laws of society. They really don't care what the laws are---they live by their own standards. 

Harold


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## publius

Economics 101: If there is a demand, there will be those who are willing to supply that which is being demanded. If I had the money, I would be looking for land with infrastructure just outside the state's border...


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## darshevo

Washington is very restrictive to individuals who scarp non-ferrous metals. While the laws put into effect are definitely aimed at stopping theft I being the conspiracy theory guy I am can't help but wonder how much of the increased record keeping, ID taking, etc that the yards are doing isn't a precursor to our favorite Uncle finding a way to get his slice of the pie. I know of more than 1 'scrapper' who makes 10's of thousands a year hauling junk out of peoples back yards and fields and doesn't pay a dime to the govt on it (you know, save for the sales tax, property tax, gas tax, alcohol tax, cigarette tax, and myriad other taxes he pays on everything he uses, consumes, or touches)  

When they day comes they start taking copies of your social security card or want your ESN, THATs when you know the good days are over.


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## Auggie

SBrown said:


> The answer isn't in creating laws that prevent honest people from making an honest living, by scraping. The solution would lie in a better, more educated and larger police force. Or to simply require people who sell scrap to show an ID, and record where they claim the scrap came from. Over time the people who are stealing will match up with the people who have been stolen from. There are many many different ways of stopping theft, but making new laws doesn't stop people from stealing, it stops them from selling it through legitimate channels and forces them under ground where I guarantee you they will be difficult to locate, and the theft continues. And where can an underground scrapper sell large quantities? Only outside the US. So now our scrap goes to another country and helps their economy.
> 
> If you regulate the recycling industry, then the only people making money are the people who win the contracts to recycle, and guess who's campaign funds they donate to, they can also afford lobbyists, do you have any idea how many Chinese backed lobbyists there are lobbying for stricter laws in the US, for recycling? Forcing the scrap to be sold overseas? When I was mixed up with International Trade, 10 years ago the Chinese were gobbling up all our non ferrous HMS 1 and 2. You couldn't sell them enough, I can only imagine what it is today.



I second your remarks, and add that the laws are merely bandages to cover up the symptoms of the real problem, which is a broken system from top to bottom. Government doesn't work and the people, for whatever/some reason, have become corrupt and lazy, relying upon the government to do everything for them. I speak generally, of course.

Call it politics, call it what you like, this is the reality of our situation, and not talking about it only prolongs the problem. The sooner we recognize the problem and accept it, the sooner we can get to really fixing it. But you have to do it yourself, you can't wait for someone else to come along and do it for you.


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## Auggie

silversaddle1 said:


> And yes, that one cracks me up. How can you ID burnt wire? How can you ID unburnt wire? Prove it's stolen. Does wire have a serial number on it now? How do you prove wire is yours? It all looks the same. More intrusive gobberment crap laws that ain't gonna change a thing.



Actually, yes, wire can now have serial numbers on it. I heard about this a couple years ago.

This technology includes a tin-plated copper strand woven with the rest of the copper wire strands that is laser etched with serial numbers:

http://www.southwire.com/support/TheftDeterrentCopperSolution.htm
http://www.endcoppertheft.com/documents/HowProofPositiveWorks.pdf

And here's an article discussing wire identifying technology:

http://www.times-georgian.com/view/full_story/11699707/article-Southwire%E2%80%99s-traceable-copper-makes-some-wire-thefts-easier-to-prosecute

"He mentioned that the stamp on the wire has gotten to be commonplace with commercial grade copper."


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## Auggie

Harold_V said:


> The harsh reality is that if citizens do not police themselves, they will be policed by others. A good example is the comment made by 4metals, whereby a nearby neighbor is involved in burning insulation from wire. The resulting fumes are very toxic and destructive to the environment. The guy involved is a moron, for he's inviting intervention and heavy fines when he is caught.



He needn't wait to get caught. 4Metals can simply take him to small claims court and get an easy and quick win out of it with not much work involved. Small claims is more of a common law type venue and if 4metals can see and smell a toxic plume of smoke being directly caused by his neighbor's hand then that's an offense and 4metals can win an injunction and maybe even some monetary damages.

This is taking your "if citizens do not police themselves, they will be policed by others" theme to its logical end, which is that we are responsible for policing each other when the need arises. I'm not saying start snooping into your neighbor's business but when he commits an act that offends you then you must deal with it yourself, and only involve the police and the courts when your neighbor will not be reasonable and there is no other viable recourse. Government should always be a last resort for resolving a matter.


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