# Verifying Catalytic Converter Recycling Process



## MyInnerScientist (Apr 18, 2018)

Hello all,

Im new to this forum so apologies if this question was already asked or if i may have posted in the wrong section.

So my question is if the process i have for refining precious metals from catalytic converters is missing anything or if i have overlooked any dangerous outcomes. (i do know of the dangerous gases let off in the process of heating aqua regia)

My Process (simplified): Grind cat into fine powder, remove base metals with HCl, dissolve precious metals with aqua regia, precipitate platinum with ammonium chloride, filter, precipitate palladium with dimethylglyoxime, filter, precipitate any rhodium with ammonium nitrate (if any is present in solution), filter.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!


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## jimdoc (Apr 18, 2018)

Study the forum. You may want to change your plans.


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## snoman701 (Apr 18, 2018)

While it's clear you have done some reading, your plans are not economically feasible. 

By my reasonably educated estimates, I'd have to have a quarter of a million dollars to enter the cat business, even then the other cat buyers would try to cut me out of the business very very quickly.

I know people that have done what you are proposing, not exactly, as some of your chemistry is off, but essentially tried to make money buying cats, doing all the labor, processing themselves. I think that Kurtak has tried to do it as well. Every one has found it to be an economical disaster, especially so once losses and waste management are factored in.


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## MyInnerScientist (Apr 18, 2018)

Money is not a problem, all I need to know is the best way of going about this. Any suggestion will help.


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## snoman701 (Apr 18, 2018)

Study the forum. The person you want to contact is an active member here.

To do it competitively will cost you money for the intellectual property. Even then, the biggest challenge in cats isn't the recovery, it's the acquisition and cash flow. If it was recovery, the person you are looking to contact wouldn't offer consulting services.


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## nickvc (Apr 18, 2018)

The guys are telling you the truth, you cannot beat the large refiners at cat refining as chemical leaching will leave more behind than that charge if your dealing in volume, another point to take note of is that when you have PGM salts as you will you have some very toxic solutions which can cause serious irreversible illness.


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## MyInnerScientist (Apr 19, 2018)

When you say intellectual property do you mean we may be using a process which is technically someones elses intellectual property or our methods should be claimed as ours?

Also, for the PGM salts and their toxicity, do you have pointers for the proper care of these materials? I will have a fume hood for digestion and safety attire but is there something im missing?

My journey ahead of me will be long, as of right now i am just looking for pointers on the small scale lab tests i plan to preform. I also already have the acquisition covered because the plan is to purchase an cat acquisition center and cut out the the company that they send their crushed cats to for recovery.


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## snoman701 (Apr 19, 2018)

By intellectual property, I mean you are paying someone to use their patented method, or help you come up with a method that suits your specific needs. 

As for the rest, good luck....you need it.


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## snoman701 (Apr 19, 2018)

I don't mean that to be rude. My statement, "good luck you will need it" represents the reality of the situation. 

I would not be purchasing an acquisition center without pretty intimate knowledge of the field. Make sure you have a very good lawyer who specializes in acquisition. 

If it was as simple as processing them in aqua regia, there would be no reason to send them to a processor.


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## nickvc (Apr 20, 2018)

Just to fully cover why we all think that you are wrong in what you are looking to do, we had a member some years ago who was a very large cat buyer and trader, he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to do exactly what you are proposing plus similar amounts getting assays for all the cats he encountered and even he came to the conclusion that he was losing money when wet refining himself against what he could get from the large cat refiners for the same materials, he was moving thousands of cats a month so he would know.
The dangers from PGM salts are fully covered if you research platinosis, there are very few old PGM refiners for that very reason, again we had a member who was a partner and founder of a very large refiner in Europe who despite his vast knowledge succumbed to it and died a long painful death, he is missed for his advice,help and his technical abilities in the recovery and refining business.


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## kurtak (Apr 20, 2018)

MIS (short for MyInnerScientist)

If you are planning on doing this as large &/or make money idea - FORGET IT :!: :!: :!: 

If you are planning to do this on a SMALL (like one time) deal to learn about PGM refining - then (& ONLY then) should you consider this (say two or three CATS) & even at that there are better sources of material to learn from for refining PGMs

Back in 2013 I gave trying to do wet chemical processing "large" volume CATs & I can tell you for an ABSOLUTE fact that it will cost you FAR more money to do it then you will EVER recover in the PGMs you get from doing this process :!: :!: :!: 

Its just NOT going to happen :!: 

For one thing - the HUGE amount of VERY toxic waste you are going to create is going to cost you every penny of the value in PGMs you get - PLUS - 2X that to process the waste - & then dispose of the waste 

That is a cost on top of - & AFTER the cost of dumping a whole LOT of money into the equipment you will need to FIRST set up to even try to wet chem process CATs 



> Grind cat into fine powder,



IF (BIG IF) you do decide to do this on a SMALL level (2 or 3 CATs) for the "sole" purpose of learning something about refining PGMs --- grinding the CATS to a fine powder is/would be your first BIG mistake!!! 

Here is a thread I posted in 2014 about my experience with trying to recover PGMs in 2013 

:arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20573#p210836

Bottom line --- Just Don't Do It :!: :!: :!: 

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 20, 2018)

One more note here --- you will NEVER get all of the PGMs out of CATs with the "wet chem" processing of CATs

At least not without industrial "secrets" - which industry is NOT going to share with you 

Kurt


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## snoman701 (Apr 20, 2018)

kurtak said:


> One more note here --- you will NEVER get all of the PGMs out of CATs with the "wet chem" processing of CATs
> 
> At least not without industrial "secrets" - which industry is NOT going to share with you
> 
> Kurt



DING DING DING...so no matter what you get out, you'll still have recoverable metal in the tailings, which means you'll be paying someone else to process it.

The only way processing it yourself helps is to keep cash flow moving.


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## Lou (Apr 20, 2018)

I actually do not want to discourage this person, as we do not know enough about what they're trying to do or their resources. It can be done aqueously, it just requires a good team and good flow sheet, and commitment from the investor. I know of companies doing it aqueously at large scale with top notch technology. No offense to you Kurt, but you did not have the resources, knowledge, or near enough supply to make a run at doing this as a full fledged venture. 

One can process catalytic converters aqueously and make (lots of) money but it does need large scale processing and it requires *substantial* capital investment. So when MyInnerScientist says money is not a problem, I presume he means >30 million dollars is not a problem. 

The biggest issue is _not_ the waste, it is the scale of operations and disposal of high purity precious metals back to the markets, or preferably, closed recycle loops to the autocatalyst manufacturers, most of whom have purchasing specifications from the auto manufacturers (i.e. GM will only buy from a certain well known precious metal refiner). Margins are relatively miniscule (<10%) at industrial scale but combining grass roots level acquisition or even regional area collector level acquisition with that of national scale processing facilities might be more profitable.

I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to work with some of the largest producers of automotive catalysts in the world and, on the other side of the coin, the largest recyclers of automotive catalysts in the world. I can tell you generally that at the facilities I've been to, there is still a lot of old science. I have had my eyes opened to the possibility of processing auto catalyst via hydrometallurgical technologies, which, as recently as 2014, I thought to be a waste of time. There are technologies that can be applied to allow processing that is efficient.

No method gets you 100% of the contained value. That is true for virtually any physical situation, be it karat refining, catalytic converter recycling, or ore processing/smelting. Every physical process has a fundamental yield per unit operation. Hydrometallurgy can compare just as well as the pyrometallurgical methods, if not better. In this case, high 90s on Pt, Pd should be a goal and low 90s on Rh. 

I will agree with the waste disposal concerns versus pyrometallurgical processing (which produces solid waste streams upstream of the refinery, which has large volumes of ferric chloride that need made into filter cake...)but each have their demerits. I can tell you that it does not cost you even a fraction of cost of recovered metals to treat and dispose of the waste solution produced, if the process is conducted correctly. 

Everyone is telling this person not to do it. I say do it if you are willing to do it RIGHT.


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## snoman701 (Apr 20, 2018)

Lou said:


> Everyone is telling this person not to do it. I say do it if you are willing to do it RIGHT.



Not true at all! 

My second post told them who they needed to contact, I just hoped they'd figure out who you were on their own!


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## kurtak (Apr 21, 2018)

Lou said:


> No offense to you Kurt, but you did not have the resources, knowledge, or near enough supply to make a run at doing this as a full fledged venture.



No offence what so ever taken Lou --- & I will agree that on the front concerning knowledge I was/am somewhat lacking - though not entirely lacking (limited to the many, many discussions on this forum) however Lou I am not so sure you can actually say that I was lacking in resources &/or supply

If by resources you mean money - then the people (VERY good friends of mine) had several million they were willing to invest had we been able to show a "potential" for profit --- keep in mind that in the thread I provided the link to was more of a large(r) scale experiment to see if it was actually worthy going forward to investing in a "full fledged venture" --- in other words - had I been able to recover enough PGMs to show a potential profit (knowledge) the money was there to take it to the next level

Concerning supply - My friends were handling about a half of a semi load of CATs per month - that in its self is not enough to go "full fledged venture" --- however - we had several other CAT buyers interested that could have also provided CATs from a half of a semi to a full semi per month & "in fact" had one supplier that was sitting on 5 semi trailers of CATs --- the CATs were available - so again what was lacking was the ability (knowledge) to recover enough PGMs to show potential profit worthy of greater investment



> Everyone is telling this person not to do it.



Generally speaking that is true & that is because (to the best of my knowledge) no one here on the "open forum" is going to be able to help him in any way to point him in the direction to get to a profitable end

on the other hand as snoman said (as a reference to you)



> Not true at all!
> 
> My second post told them who they needed to contact, I just hoped they'd figure out who you were on their own!



And as I said in my second post



> At least not without industrial "secrets" - which industry is NOT going to share with you



So back to your opening statement



> I actually do not want to discourage this person,



If MyInnerScientist actually has the "millions" you suggest are needed to make it happen then you would certainly be the man to consult with

My only question at that point (being as you "do not want to discourage this person") is - are we going to get to open this discussion on the open forum :mrgreen: 

Just kidding with that last statement Lou :lol: 

As much as I would enjoy your "free" consultation - I somehow don't see that happening  

Kurt


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## Lou (Apr 21, 2018)

Appreciate your response Kurt. And I didn't know if Snowman meant me or not. I’ve been in over my head before too! Everyone starts learning this at the same place. By resources I meant a chemical engineer, environmental permitting, analytical instrumentation (namely ICP and WDXRF), advanced ion exchangers; filter press for waste water, etc. By knowledge, I meant experience with using aforementioned. If you had all that I stand corrected.

To do converters requires quantity. As in, a tractor trailer load/day. Every day. And we aren't even getting into the details about how they're graded, MFCs, etc. Even a few millions isn't enough. A few tens of millions is required if you're going to do it plant size and compete. Hell, just getting the leach system installed is a multimillion dollar endeavor. Not exactly cheap to have people come plumb your series of 1 ton steel liquid chlorine cylinders to your titanium autoclave, now is it?

I will agree are more secrets on the hydromet side than there are on the pyromet side where it centers around iron or copper collection often with a double trip to the furnace to get the bulk of it. Most of the hydromet comes down to good capture/collection methodologies, reuse of acids, proper pretreatment, and solid/liquid separation (that is to say, getting it to filter). Much of the acid can be used over and over and over if it can be filtered cleanly. Furthermore, as all of the PGM complexes are anionic, they can be dialyzed to higher concentrations before subsequent liquid-liquid or solid-state extraction.


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## Lou (Apr 21, 2018)

and Kurt, as far as free consultations go, some people do get them. There's a well known member here doing a series of videos who has called and gotten the skinny on Pd and Pt refining...


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## cuchugold (Apr 22, 2018)

Every time someone has told me something is impossible, I have found out someone else that has been doing it for years, and can do it really, really well. Chapeau Lou.


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## cuchugold (Apr 22, 2018)

MyInnerScientist said:


> Money is not a problem, all I need to know is the best way of going about this. Any suggestion will help.


 Money is ALWAYS, not only a problem, but THE PROBLEM.


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## MyInnerScientist (Apr 22, 2018)

Money is not a problem, sourcing cats is not a problem, engineering a large scale refinery will not be a problem. This is all far down the road and I will cross that bridge when I get there. What I want to know is if any of you have any better chemical processes that say might reduce waste or if reflux distilling is the right way to go or if it's only good for certain steps, or if their are any decent ways of neutralizing the chemicals (even if it costs more money). All I need now is help with the chemistry aspect.

I do though appreciate all the feed back I will keep this in mind as I take the next steps


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## snoman701 (Apr 22, 2018)

I think that question was answered quite well by Lou.

This is what he does, provide engineering and analytical support in the development of turnkey refining systems. 

You need to contact him.


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## cuchugold (Apr 22, 2018)

MyInnerScientist said:


> All I need now is help with the chemistry aspect.



I do not wish to demean or insult or anything, but here goes a simple question: Do you truly believe that using some late 19th century technology, that was developed before cars existed, that everyone is aware of, that is printed in books, etc, and that is probably a high school course these days, you are going to make money?. Of course there are bigger, better, faster, nicer, safer, methods available.

An expert in the field just gave you several answers on what is required and how it goes.

Now for the money question: You are planning to make money with this, right?. So, really if money is not an issue, give the expert a call, set up an appointment, pay his fees, maybe he'll show you one of the plants, and will probably cost you a lot less than if you are going to learn this stuff from scratch.

One more thing: You can know all the chemistry in the world about this, and you'll probably fail, because you are against more resourceful people. Maybe you can cook a better pizza, but Domino's is going to make money, and you'll end up in the 95% of pizza parlors that fail.

I probably just wasted a lot of my breath for nothing, but there you are, I'm a giver. Also a taker, so don't get any ideas.


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## snoman701 (Apr 22, 2018)

MyInnerScientist said:


> Money is not a problem, sourcing cats is not a problem, engineering a large scale refinery will not be a problem. This is all far down the road and I will cross that bridge when I get there. What I want to know is if any of you have any better chemical processes that say might reduce waste or if reflux distilling is the right way to go or if it's only good for certain steps, or if their are any decent ways of neutralizing the chemicals (even if it costs more money). All I need now is help with the chemistry aspect.
> 
> I do though appreciate all the feed back I will keep this in mind as I take the next steps



There are a lot of posts regarding the chemistry already in this section of the forum. I absolutely recommend familiarizing yourself with the technology available to the general public before you consider spending money on a turnkey system. 

Here are some keys. 

Rhodium is fifficult to get in to solution.

Palladium oxide is acid resistant, thus any pdo in the ceramic matrix will be unrecoverable by standard methods.

Even if you recover rhodium and palladium, selling them at a high percentage of value can be difficult.

As you know, the yield per pound is not exceptional, so waste management is very important.

Now for clues....click on Lou's name and read everything he has written in the pgm forum. Then when you talk to him you'll have a better understanding of what he can offer outside of that which is publicly available.

He's able to help with every aspect of recovery and disposal, and in my opinion....at a very competitive rate.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aga (Apr 22, 2018)

Lou is certainly your best bet.

If you want to chance it, there are papers saying everything is possible:
View attachment mahmoud2003.pdf

That paper says sulphuric acid and table salt, claiming 85%+ under certain conditions.

I thought that mix just made HCl.


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## nickvc (Apr 22, 2018)

I will make one final comment on this.
If wet chemistry was the best way to recover the PGMs then why do all the clever big players use arc furnaces to recover the values, they have invested 100s of millions of dollars and the things run 24/7 and need huge amounts to feed them, it’s economy of scale, the other point is finding a decent market for the metals refined and that will be very hard without very large volumes of high purity metals, the big players already have that organized and will dump on any new player that tries to enter the market.


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## MyInnerScientist (Apr 22, 2018)

Ok all, I apologize to Lou because I will admit I skipped over a bit of the back and forth of whether I should do this or not, but I have read it all and it was very helpful. 

Ill do as suggested and look through lous posts. And continue my research. 

Thank you all!


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