# Gold will not drop



## sleepyman1

So I'm an amateur at this. I've been reading and watching videos and here is what I've got.

Collected 10 pounds of gold fingers. NOT RAM modules, the fingers from them. Soaked in HCL and peroxide to remove the foils. Collected the foils in a container marked with ounces, the foils almost reached to the 3 ounce mark. I know, it's liquid ounces on the container I'm just giving a visual. Further processed the foils in HCL and bleach in a large plastic container, the foils dissolved. Added sodium metabisulfite dissolved in water, about 400 grams in 2 gallons of water. Got the muddy water reaction. It's now been several days and the gold is not dropping, nothing is there. The solution is now dark but translucent sort of like tea. What am I doing wrong? What could I do next? Also, the solution is still producing strong chloride odors. There's a lot of gold in there and I'm getting worried.

Thanks for any help from the experts.


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## acpeacemaker

So how much bleach? If you used 2 gallons of water just for smb. I'm assuming you probably used a ton of bleach? It doesn't take much.

The muddy color is the gold precipitating. Does it go back into solution? The fineness can reflect on a slow settlement of the powder as well. A dirty solution can do the same.

All of this can be fixed by using heat with some evaporation. If you don't have access to using heat. Which could easily be an old coffee pot and warmer. (But sounds like you have quite a bit of too much liquids for that.) You can use the sun. It will take a bit longer.


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## sleepyman1

I think it was 400 ml. The solution was not perfectly clean. I had tiny parts and some white powder in it, but it wasn't much. Didnt think it would make that much a difference. Thanks for the reply, seriously. I'll purchase a hot plate. What temp do you recommend?


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## Lino1406

Check your SMB by adding HCl, a typical SO2 smell should evolve


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## acpeacemaker

sleepyman1 said:


> I think it was 400 ml. The solution was not perfectly clean. I had tiny parts and some white powder in it, but it wasn't much. Didnt think it would make that much a difference. Thanks for the reply, seriously. I'll purchase a hot plate. What temp do you recommend?


I'm just giving an instance for next time...not a whole process 

Putting the foils in a beaker. Pour in hcl just enough to cover them. Slowly add bleach in smaller incremental steps like one would with nitric. Waiting 5 mins or so inbetween. You can use a turkey baster to add the bleach. Just be wary the super cheap ones don't always hold the liquid very well. 

After your foils are dissolved you can follow normal steps. 

Put on a low heat just enough to see a fume for 10-15 mins. Doesn't need to be a rolling boil. This will help rid of the chlorine for an easier drop.

When you are adding your smb. It can be added dry. It's usually been a preference thing. The only time I will dilute it is when I have a super dirty solution which will make the gold drop slower. 

If gold is precipitated and having a hard time settling you can use heat again. It will help with clumping and sinking to the bottom of the flask.

Andrew


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## sleepyman1

@Lino1406 

I don't have any SO2 so I don't know what it smells like. It does have a strong odor though. Not as strong as HCL but its there. Probably because I have so much water and SMB in it???

@acpeacemaker 

Thanks for all that but my gold has already been dissolved in the HCL bleach solution. I mixed my SMB with water and then added it. It's been on low heat for 2 days now and nothing has dropped. The solution is a light green color now. What the heck am I doing wrong? Getting nervous.


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## FrugalRefiner

sleepyman1 said:


> @Lino1406
> 
> I don't have any SO2 so I don't know what it smells like.


It smells like burnt matches.


sleepyman1 said:


> It's been on low heat for 2 days now and nothing has dropped. The solution is a light green color now. What the heck am I doing wrong? Getting nervous.


What does a stannous test tell you?

Dave


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## jadedalex

"The solution is a light green color now." Sounds like you've dissolved copper from the pins...there are threads in the Archives here that might help you drop the copper which should help give you a cleaner drop. I would also recommend reading the relevant threads talking about using Bleach with Hydrocloric. Household bleach contains other additives that can poison your drops...


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## [email protected]

It sounds like you have to much bleach in solution. Peace Maker is right. It is going back into solution. Meaning, that will continue to happen until all the bleach is used up. Or you neutralize it some way.


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## Yggdrasil

Listen to Andrew and Dave.
First and foremost test with Stannous, make sure it is acidic. 
If you have added too much bleach it would have neutralized the HCl, then SMB will not work and maybe some gold left behind.
Just add a bit HCl to make sure.
Or test pH if you can.


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## sleepyman1

@FrugalRefiner 
My stannous solution is years old and probably unreliable so I ordered some more. Will be here next week.

I finally have some gold dropping! There's about 1/4 teaspoon at the bottom of the jar. But with foils from 10 pounds of fingers there should be a lot more.


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## FrugalRefiner

Stannous will give you an answer so you don't have to guess. If you're going to refine, you should always have stannous test solution on hand.

Dave


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## Punterr

sleepyman1 said:


> @FrugalRefiner
> My stannous solution is years old and probably unreliable so I ordered some more. Will be here next week.
> 
> I finally have some gold dropping! There's about 1/4 teaspoon at the bottom of the jar. But with foils from 10 pounds of fingers there should be a lot more.


Stannous Chloride is only good for a couple of months then is unreliable, you can make stannous easily. buy some cheap Tin (II) chloride and mix a little with some 50% water/HCL (25ml). To make the stannous last longer add some tin metal.


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## acpeacemaker

Stannous chloride can have a good shelf life up to 2 years.

Andrew


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## sleepyman1

Stannous test is dark brown. Which means gold is there correct? I feel like I don't have enough of one of the chemicals but which one?


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## FrugalRefiner

Nope. Dark brown means you probably used too much SMB. Dark brown is often called a false positive, but gold tests as purple to black, not brown.

Dave


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## sleepyman1

The Stannous bottle has a label on it that is color coded. The Au column has purple and brown. The purple is labeled low concentration and the brown is high concentration. ????


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## sleepyman1

So I decided to empty the solution to see what has dropped. The SMB simply recrystallized in the bottom of the jar. Large chunk of it. Is the gold trapped inside it? What would be the best course of action?


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## butcher

Use copper it will trade place with your gold, if any gold is in solution.


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## cejohnsonsr1

sleepyman1 said:


> So I'm an amateur at this. I've been reading and watching videos and here is what I've got.
> 
> Collected 10 pounds of gold fingers. NOT RAM modules, the fingers from them. Soaked in HCL and peroxide to remove the foils. Collected the foils in a container marked with ounces, the foils almost reached to the 3 ounce mark. I know, it's liquid ounces on the container I'm just giving a visual. Further processed the foils in HCL and bleach in a large plastic container, the foils dissolved. Added sodium metabisulfite dissolved in water, about 400 grams in 2 gallons of water. Got the muddy water reaction. It's now been several days and the gold is not dropping, nothing is there. The solution is now dark but translucent sort of like tea. What am I doing wrong? What could I do next? Also, the solution is still producing strong chloride odors. There's a lot of gold in there and I'm getting worried.
> 
> Thanks for any help from the experts.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 10 lb of fingers is probably going to yield less 1 gr of gold. Depending upon how much solution you have it dissolved in, that's going to look like a smudge on the bottom of your beaker. I learned this the hard way about 10 years ago. Escrap just isn't worth the effort unless you're processing it by the ton. AP is good for getting the foils separated from the card stock. After that you really need to process with distilled water and Nitric 1st to remove any silver and base metals. A couple of drops of Sulfuric at this point will precipitate any lead. Then Hydrochloric and Nitric to dissolve the gold. Complete and thorough rinsing between processes is absolutely necessary.


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## ZiegenSauger

For the very old extra thick memory cards, interfaces and other boards from >20 years ago one would bet 1.5 g per pound of the so called fingers of any kind.
Today, a very sound estimate is 1/10 (0.1g) of gold per pound.
For someone with decent control of the process, they would get 1g to 1.5 g of gold from 10 pounds of nowadays fingers.

Over the last 2 years, most of it was my education and practice, done everything and anything with all sorts of eWaste from today and from over two decades ago (like POGO pin connectors from the uber audio cables Monster Cables). Messed up a lot, lost considerable number of grams of gold but learned and now I can even recover quantities slightly under a gram of gold.

One thing I say: eWaste is worse than water mirage in Sahara. I would recommend to anyone to first accumulate, accumulate and accumulate. Second recover and store as much as you can of whatever is recover from A/P, diluted nitric, whatever. But stockpile a large volume, like a ham tupperware full of filter papers loaded with the solids AT LEAST.
This is the minimum to have some decent amount of gold (4-5 grams if you really had the patience to cut the pin tips only where the gold plate is present, clean and cut each pin of connectors, trim only the finger part of those amber color flex cables.
It is a humongous labor and a loooong time if you dont junkyard dive every week, but the only way to recover gold from eWaste.

I dare to say that for the experienced folks in the forum, eWaste is either just for fun or to eWaste time and resources.


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## sleepyman1

@ZiegenSauger and @cejohnsonsr1

Thanks for the info. I only started this because I could pretty easily get the RAM and some cards too. And for the experience and a little gold of course. I think I'll keep going though. I can keep getting RAM and other stuff with a little gold in it for free.

So it appears I have used WAY to much SMB. The SMB has formed crystals at the bottom of the jar. No brown sediment. Maybe the SMB crystals formed around the sediment. Don't know just guessing. What should I do to dissolve it, again, and get the gold out?


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## cejohnsonsr1

1st you really need to do a stanous test to see whether or not you actually have any gold in solution. If you have a layer of undissolved SMB on the bottom of the beaker, hold it up so you can see the bottom. Your gold should have settled before the SMB. But again, it's not going to be a lot. Just a brown smudge. If that's what you find, I'd just filter off the liquid and save the solids for when you have enough material to justify processing. If you're yield is under around 10 gr it's just not worth doing.


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## sleepyman1

Almost all of the liquid evaporated off. Had a bit left and did a stannous test. It showed light brown and then disappeared. What would be the best way to liquify the SMB and then somehow reveal the gold? Just dissolve in water again?


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## Yggdrasil

sleepyman1 said:


> Almost all of the liquid evaporated off. Had a bit left and did a stannous test. It showed light brown and then disappeared. What would be the best way to liquify the SMB and then somehow reveal the gold? Just dissolve in water again?


Light brown is not Gold.

Gold gives strong purple going to pitch black depending on concentration, (purple of Cassius) is one of the old names.

Brown is what we call a false positive, too much smb or copper and so on will give brown.


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## netgeek3

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 10 lb of fingers is probably going to yield less 1 gr of gold. Depending upon how much solution you have it dissolved in, that's going to look like a smudge on the bottom of your beaker. I learned this the hard way about 10 years ago. Escrap just isn't worth the effort unless you're processing it by the ton. AP is good for getting the foils separated from the card stock. After that you really need to process with distilled water and Nitric 1st to remove any silver and base metals. A couple of drops of Sulfuric at this point will precipitate any lead. Then Hydrochloric and Nitric to dissolve the gold. Complete and thorough rinsing between processes is absolutely necessary.


I hate to start an argument here, but so long as nothing has been disposed of, you actually should have some gold. In fact, 10lbs of fingers should produce anywhere from 10 to 20 grams of gold, depending on how well plated they were. Our yields are typically in the 1.5g/lb. range, and I know that Sree has shown in his videos that he is getting up to 1.86g/lb. and OG Bullion has shown 1.31g/lb. so your yield should certainly surpass 1g for the entire 10lb. process. I do agree with the process above, and one of the things to consider is the age of the materials you are dealing with, as processes have changed over time. Many boards have a fair amount of nickel sitting between the copper and the gold, and you definitely want to get that out of the way.

Anyway, my $.02 worth.


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## sleepyman1

@Yggdrasil 

I definitely used too much SMB. WAY too much. I think that fouled up the whole process. The crystalized SMB does have some green to it, so that means copper I guess.

@netgeek3 

WOW! This gives me hope! What would you do in my situation? Thanks.


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## cejohnsonsr1

netgeek3 said:


> I hate to start an argument here, but so long as nothing has been disposed of, you actually should have some gold. In fact, 10lbs of fingers should produce anywhere from 10 to 20 grams of gold, depending on how well plated they were. Our yields are typically in the 1.5g/lb. range, and I know that Sree has shown in his videos that he is getting up to 1.86g/lb. and OG Bullion has shown 1.31g/lb. so your yield should certainly surpass 1g for the entire 10lb. process. I do agree with the process above, and one of the things to consider is the age of the materials you are dealing with, as processes have changed over time. Many boards have a fair amount of nickel sitting between the copper and the gold, and you definitely want to get that out of the way.
> 
> Anyway, my $.02 worth.


If you were referring to sreetips, that was pins. Not fingers. His yield was a little over 22 gr but he paid $1k for the pins and used about 4 gallons of Nitric. Fingers are nearly all PCB. The gold is plated over copper (mostly) in a layer only a few atoms thick. Older material is a little better, but not by much.


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## lazersteve

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> If you were referring to sreetips, that was pins. Not fingers. His yield was a little over 22 gr but he paid $1k for the pins and used about 4 gallons of Nitric. Fingers are nearly all PCB. The gold is plated over copper (mostly) in a layer only a few atoms thick. Older material is a little better, but not by much.


You may be looking at trace Pd...pd plus SO2 can show brown. If you have DMG I would advise testing for Pd after boiling the solution to drive out any SO2.


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## ZiegenSauger

I second everything here. There is one point though: I have been in this very same seat not long ago. Even the quantities and steps are similar. I assume that some of my mistakes could be in there too.
All that was said to me is already brilliantly posted above by other forum members, I have one thing I want to be hardheaded on:
Where I am at today, under the very same scenario, I dare to say I would've been successful recovering gold.
Remember that eScrap is very deceiving. Initial information state 10 lbs of fingers, those ones from 15~20 years ago.
Let's assume the bulk of them is from, say, 10~15 years ago. It was impossible for me to successfully recover because of anxiety, gold fever, missteps, wrong steps, unbalanced amounts, indiscipline, among many other things.
I am not anyhow trying to imply that @sleepyman1 is committing some or any of my own mistakes at all. The thing is forum colleagues called me out on that several, and I mean, SEVERAL times and I did not want to see.

Today I recover (at least) some of the gold in the original eScrap batch from filter papers, overflow wipes and cardboard, stock pot.

Today I can even extract amounts <0.1g decently well thnx for the forum, there is A LOT of great things here and A LOT of great guys here willing to help.

My apologies y'all, I know this post is already obnoxious but from the bottom of my heart: @sleepyman1 please halt (Achtung in mother tongue). Lay back and review everything you did, every step you took. The gold is there. Could be in filter papers, could be at the bottom of waste buckets, could be as solids, and everything in between inside your shop.

My recommendation to you would be:
(1) Pour all liquids in buckets
(2) Calculate the total volume
(3) Drop pure copper (pipes, stripes, really anything pure copper)
(4) Set aside
(5) If you have an aquarium bubbling device, set it up to keep the solution moving
(6) If not, just use something safe (like a wooden mop handler) to mix the bucket(s) twice a day at least
(7) After 2 weeks (to be safe), syphon out the liquids
(8) Collect all the solids
(9) Start all over

From the point you are and further, the mess will only pile up. You will not learn and you will lose more.

Cheers mate


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## Geo

Cement everything on aluminum foil and start over without adding excess oxidizer. By now you have painted yourself into a corner.


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## sleepyman1

ZiegenSauger said:


> I second everything here. There is one point though: I have been in this very same seat not long ago. Even the quantities and steps are similar. I assume that some of my mistakes could be in there too.
> All that was said to me is already brilliantly posted above by other forum members, I have one thing I want to be hardheaded on:
> Where I am at today, under the very same scenario, I dare to say I would've been successful recovering gold.
> Remember that eScrap is very deceiving. Initial information state 10 lbs of fingers, those ones from 15~20 years ago.
> Let's assume the bulk of them is from, say, 10~15 years ago. It was impossible for me to successfully recover because of anxiety, gold fever, missteps, wrong steps, unbalanced amounts, indiscipline, among many other things.
> I am not anyhow trying to imply that @sleepyman1 is committing some or any of my own mistakes at all. The thing is forum colleagues called me out on that several, and I mean, SEVERAL times and I did not want to see.
> 
> Today I recover (at least) some of the gold in the original eScrap batch from filter papers, overflow wipes and cardboard, stock pot.
> 
> Today I can even extract amounts <0.1g decently well thnx for the forum, there is A LOT of great things here and A LOT of great guys here willing to help.
> 
> My apologies y'all, I know this post is already obnoxious but from the bottom of my heart: @sleepyman1 please halt (Achtung in mother tongue). Lay back and review everything you did, every step you took. The gold is there. Could be in filter papers, could be at the bottom of waste buckets, could be as solids, and everything in between inside your shop.
> 
> My recommendation to you would be:
> (1) Pour all liquids in buckets
> (2) Calculate the total volume
> (3) Drop pure copper (pipes, stripes, really anything pure copper)
> (4) Set aside
> (5) If you have an aquarium bubbling device, set it up to keep the solution moving
> (6) If not, just use something safe (like a wooden mop handler) to mix the bucket(s) twice a day at least
> (7) After 2 weeks (to be safe), syphon out the liquids
> (8) Collect all the solids
> (9) Start all over
> 
> From the point you are and further, the mess will only pile up. You will not learn and you will lose more.
> 
> Cheers mate


Thanks friend! Here is what I'm going to do this weekend. Please correct me if I'm making a mistake in any step.

1. Put all remaining liquid back in the jar and calculate volume.
2. Put copper in the liquid.
3. Set aside and add air bubbles.
4. Stir daily just encase the bubbles aren't enough to move it. I'm using a glass rod.
5. Decant the liquids from the solids after 2 weeks.
6. Collect the solids.

Now, questions.

Does it matter how much copper?

When you say start over, do you mean put the solids back into a HCL chlorine solution to dissolve it again then add a pinch of SMB to get it to drop? Or, are the solids that dropped from the copper step the gold itself? Please clarify.

What should I do with the SMB crystals that formed at the bottom of the jar in my earlier attempt?

Should I use heat in the above steps?

May I ask you to keep an eye on this thread please. I'll post updates. I'll need input because I don't want to screw up AGAIN!

Thanks very much!


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## Geo

Overuse of hypochlorite will effect the gold drop. Sodium hypochlorite (chlorine bleach) decomposes at 214°F and water boils at 212°F. Unless the solution reaches 214°F for an extended time, you are not destroying the excess hypochlorite and it is being released at the rate that chlorine gas escapes the solution. The solution becomes saturated with chlorine when you first add the bleach, assuming you are being over generous with your additions. Heating the solution helps drive out the chlorine gas but unless it reaches 214°F for an extended period of time, you are not destroying the excess hypochlorite but just driving off the excess chlorine gas in solution. If you let it cool too soon, more hypochlorite decomposes and saturates the solution again.








Sodium hypochlorite - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## sleepyman1

Just to update.

Volume of the solution is .5 gallons.
Put 6 feet of 10 AWG copper wire in it. Copper instantly went from shiny to dull.
Added air pump to flow air through the solution.

So now wait for 2 weeks. Stirring daily.


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## ZiegenSauger

Wonder how are you doing now? Any success?


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## sleepyman1

The copper completely dissolved. Nothing at the bottom. I'm going to try boiling away the chlorine like Geo said.


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## Elemental

Did you use a stannous test to confirm the gold is in solution? What is the pH of your solution now? Geo had mentioned cementing everything out with aluminum, have you given thought to that? Now that you’ve added more copper, you’ll have all it cement out now too. I’m curious what’s going to happen after you now boil off the hypochlorite. You have a lot of metal in just a few liters of water. You may get some crystals depending on saturation and solubility of your metal salts when it cools. Please keep us updated. 

Question: Does a stannous test work with a hypochlorite solution?


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## Yggdrasil

I think stannous works best in acidic conditions. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So if you have added too much hypochlorite, your solution may have too high Ph for both SMB and stannous to work.
Definitely for the solution to dissolve Gold in the first place.

The HCl/hypochlorite process is very delicate in that manner, it is very easy to overshoot and add too much hypochlorite and thus neutralize the HCl and killing the process.

Try to add some more HCl and see again.

Regards Per-Ove


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## sleepyman1

Elemental said:


> Did you use a stannous test to confirm the gold is in solution? What is the pH of your solution now? Geo had mentioned cementing everything out with aluminum, have you given thought to that? Now that you’ve added more copper, you’ll have all it cement out now too. I’m curious what’s going to happen after you now boil off the hypochlorite. You have a lot of metal in just a few liters of water. You may get some crystals depending on saturation and solubility of your metal salts when it cools. Please keep us updated.
> 
> Question: Does a stannous test work with a hypochlorite solution?



I'll test tomorrow the pH and the stannous. It has lost almost all of its HCl smell. You mention crystals, during the copper addition process there were some light green crystals that formed on the container above the liquid. What should I do with those? Are they worthless?

Could you describe how to do the aluminum cementing process. I've never done that before. Should I do that or boil it down?


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## sleepyman1

Yggdrasil said:


> I think stannous works best in acidic conditions. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> So if you have added too much hypochlorite, your solution may have too high Ph for both SMB and stannous to work.
> Definitely for the solution to dissolve Gold in the first place.
> 
> The HCl/hypochlorite process is very delicate in that manner, it is very easy to overshoot and add too much hypochlorite and thus neutralize the HCl and killing the process.
> 
> Try to add some more HCl and see again.
> 
> Regards Per-Ove


Should I do boil down first or add more HCl first and see what happens. If I should add more HCl, how much you suggest?


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## Yggdrasil

sleepyman1 said:


> Should I do boil down first or add more HCl first and see what happens. If I should add more HCl, how much you suggest?


Just add enough to make sure it is acidic.


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## Ray Levi

ZiegenSauger said:


> For the very old extra thick memory cards, interfaces and other boards from >20 years ago one would bet 1.5 g per pound of the so called fingers of any kind.
> Today, a very sound estimate is 1/10 (0.1g) of gold per pound.
> For someone with decent control of the process, they would get 1g to 1.5 g of gold from 10 pounds of nowadays fingers.
> 
> Over the last 2 years, most of it was my education and practice, done everything and anything with all sorts of eWaste from today and from over two decades ago (like POGO pin connectors from the uber audio cables Monster Cables). Messed up a lot, lost considerable number of grams of gold but learned and now I can even recover quantities slightly under a gram of gold.
> 
> One thing I say: eWaste is worse than water mirage in Sahara. I would recommend to anyone to first accumulate, accumulate and accumulate. Second recover and store as much as you can of whatever is recover from A/P, diluted nitric, whatever. But stockpile a large volume, like a ham tupperware full of filter papers loaded with the solids AT LEAST.
> This is the minimum to have some decent amount of gold (4-5 grams if you really had the patience to cut the pin tips only where the gold plate is present, clean and cut each pin of connectors, trim only the finger part of those amber color flex cables.
> It is a humongous labor and a loooong time if you dont junkyard dive every week, but the only way to recover gold from eWaste.
> 
> I dare to say that for the experienced folks in the forum, eWaste is either just for fun or to eWaste time and resources.


Try this inexpensive complete kit .








JSP ® gold refining kit 1 1/2 lb. (kit26-2) | eBay


Contains 1/2lb Nitric acid substitute (NaNO3), 1/2 lb Urea -Aqua Regia CO(NH2)2.



www.ebay.com


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## FrugalRefiner

I can buy everything for less at the hardware store.

Dave


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## butcher

Leoesch, 
You have been spamming your wares, and not adding anything of value to the board, if you continue your stay here on the forum will be short.
See the forum rules, you can post your wares in the for sell section if they are related to recovery or refining, but not try to sell your stuff or profit from every conversation.

PS your lucky I have not already hit the ban button as yet.


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## orvi

30 USD for overall few dollars worth of chemicals. Not a single kilo of extremely cheap stuff. Wow. So much added value.
But I am curious what urea-aqua regia is...  hopefully it isn´t mixed together


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## Elemental

Are we making this: Urea nitrate - Wikipedia or perhaps this: Nitrourea - Wikipedia ? Time to pull out the organic chemistry textbook! I love the smell of gold refining and high explosives in the morning!


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## sleepyman1

I just discovered that my pH strips are expired. That could have been giving me false readings all along. I'm getting more tomorrow. The stannous test shows dark brown. According to the label on the bottle, that means gold.


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## butcher

Dark brown does not mean you have gold in solution it would be more of an indication of copper or a brown color from the copper reduction from a reaction with the stannous chloride from overuse of SMB.
Gold would be violet or purple to blackish if very concentrated (which becomes violet when diluted).
.


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## orvi

Elemental said:


> Are we making this: Urea nitrate - Wikipedia or perhaps this: Nitrourea - Wikipedia ? Time to pull out the organic chemistry textbook! I love the smell of gold refining and high explosives in the morning!


More possibly the nitrate salt. Nitrourea requires some heating and more concentrated nitric. But in aqua regia, nitrosyl chloride and chlorine forms  not a good combination with urea either. Not to mention that formed chlorourea stuff is quite nasty, toxic and possibly carcinogenic.

Some interesting information i just stumbled across:



So, in the pathaway of decay urea creates numerous funky intermediates such as N-chlorourea, NCl3 (yeah), chloramines and finally goes to the NITRATE  trying to destroy nitrate with it, and you will end up with some more nitrate 



https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es102423u


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## sleepyman1

My new pH strips shows that the solution is a 2, so it's still acidic. What's the next step I should take?


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## The Devils Dog

If you think it’s possibly “hot” as in high ph evaporation and fresh H2O after the evaporation 
1.Solution as is will be taken to whatever heating equipment you are using for evaporation to precipitate residues left behind 

2.Powders/salts will be rehydrated with fresh distilled H2O 

3. Retest if solution is still hot run the process again until it’s ph has come to the level your looking to obtain


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## sleepyman1

OK, I let the solution boil away. What I have left is in the photos. A green substance that looks and feels like sand. A solid dense substance that was underneath the sand substance, and a black substance at the top of the the solid material in the photo. What is all of this? What should I do with each one now?


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## goldshark

Just curious about the source of your scrap. Here is the reason. Last summer, a bunch of gypsies claiming to be from Dubai, were all over Colorado. They had a song and dance about getting their ID's and money stolen, but they had a bunch of jewelry stamped 14k + 18K. They sold it for 1/2 of spot. Problem was, there is absolutely no gold in it. It assayed something like 70% Copper, rest Tin, Zinc, and to give it a high specific gravity, Actinium. When put in Nitric, the stuff practically explodes, it is so reactive. A lot of people got suckered by these a--holes. The residue looks just like what you have, hence the question about the source stock.


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## Martijn

The Devils Dog said:


> If you think it’s possibly “hot” as in high ph evaporation and fresh H2O after the evaporation
> 1.Solution as is will be taken to whatever heating equipment you are using for evaporation to precipitate residues left behind
> 
> 2.Powders/salts will be rehydrated with fresh distilled H2O
> 
> 3. Retest if solution is still hot run the process again until it’s ph has come to the level your looking to obtain


Your post makes no sense to me. Why evaporate and rehydrate? How is hot high pH?


----------



## Yggdrasil

The Devils Dog said:


> If you think it’s possibly “hot” as in high ph evaporation and fresh H2O after the evaporation
> 1.Solution as is will be taken to whatever heating equipment you are using for evaporation to precipitate residues left behind
> 
> 2.Powders/salts will be rehydrated with fresh distilled H2O
> 
> 3. Retest if solution is still hot run the process again until it’s ph has come to the level your looking to obtain


This makes no sense.
Heat has nothing with ph to do.
If the ph is too high, closing to past 5 or above you will form hydroxides and any SMB will not work.


----------



## Martijn

Sleepyman, this thread has turned into something too confusing and possibly dangerous for you imo.

There has been advised to 'boil off' the oxidizer, chloride from the bleech since cementing did not work.

Bleech is broken down in solution, and faster under heat. You don't need to evaporate it all down to salts.
Just heating it and let a part evaporate off to get rid of the chlorine will do. 
Even just adfing water and leaving it to the open air will eventually break down the bleech.

Then cement it all out on copper. Try with a small piece first to see if any metals are cemented out or if the copper dissolves along with the cemented metals.

If so, evaporate a bit more. If not, add copper and air and knock the cement off the copper every now and then to see if new cement forms. If not, take out the copper, decant and transfer to the stockpot and rinse and collect the cement. 

You can also test a drop with stannous to see if the pm's will redissolve or not. Again an indicator for free oxidizer in solution. 

I dont think you have to expect al lot of pgm's in this ram foil batch. So let the stockpot deal with that. 

But boiling down a solution with excess of bleech may not have been the best advise you've been given. 

From wikipedia: 
*"Sodium hypochlorite* (commonly known in a dilute solution as *bleach*) is a chemical compound with the formula NaOCl or NaClO, comprising a sodium cation (Na+
) and a hypochlorite anion (OCl−
or ClO−
). It may also be viewed as the sodium salt of hypochlorous acid. *The anhydrous compound is unstable and may decompose explosively*.[2][3] _*It can be crystallized as a pentahydrate NaOCl·5H*_
*2O, a* *pale greenish-yellow solid which is not explosive and is stable if kept refrigerated*"

Looking at the color of your salts, I'm a bit concerned.
So because you have added that much bleech that you may have created an unstable compound, I would advise to get the crystals wet ASAP, see what dissolves and measure pH. If pH is high, (above 7) you still have bleech and need to acidify. SMB is Ph 4.6 in solution. Bleech is between 11 and 13. 
You have made quite a mess.

Then cement and start over. 

Have you studied and do you understand how to deal with waste? 

Martijn.


----------



## kurtak

Today is the first time I have looked at this thread - AND OMG - I can't believe what I am reading

This thread has been going on for two months now & NOTHING has been solved - other then one mess after another

This is in LARGE PART because sleepyman1 has absolutely NO clue what he is doing - as a result he has followed advice (both good & *BAD*) without FULLY understanding what that advice is 

Sleepyman1 --- you NEED to SLOW way down & FULLY understand what you are doing before you move forward

This thread has gone so far off the hook (after two months) it is now beyond repair to go back to what coulda/shoulda been done

That said - at this point -----


Martijn said:


> Looking at the color of your salts, I'm a bit concerned.
> So because you have added that much bleech that you may have created an unstable compound, *I would advise to get the crystals wet ASAP*, see what dissolves and measure pH. If pH is high, (above 7) you still have bleech and need to acidify. SMB is Ph 4.6 in solution. Bleech is between 11 and 13.
> You have made quite a mess.



Per the bold print this is VERY good advice - you very well may have (or not) made some explosive compounds

For what it is worth - the green crystals would likely work for making the colored stars in fireworks - but that's another story

The point being - at this point - you NEED to TRY to redissolve those crystals with warm/hot water (they may or not be water soluble) so try that first

To clarify - based on your last pictures - you have three different solids from over evaporating you solution which for the most part you have been able to separate --- "try" dissolve "each one" of those solids "on there own"

do not try to dissolve them all together

Why ?

the BLACK is likely a combination of copper & gold (actual copper & gold) as well as "other" chemical "salts" so hot water MAY be able to dissolve the "salt" allowing the copper &/or gold to settle out as copper/gold powders in the bottom of your beaker --- without actually being there to see what you have - I am betting the black solids is where much (but not all) of your copper/gold is - so -----

Start by putting the black stuff in a beaker with HOT water & see if the hot water starts dissolving the "salts" allowing copper/gold to flake off & settle in the bottom of the beaker - START with that & lets see what happens

In other words "start" with just hot water & see if it starts dissolving salt leaving behind copper/gold --- IF (the BIF IF) some of that black stuff is so hard/solid that hot water alone is having trouble dissolving the salt out - turn it up to a SIMMER boil - but no more then a simmering boil - try that & lets see what happens

The green sand like crystals - again start with some hot water & lets see what happens - hopefully it dissolves - this stuff should dissolve with just hot water (no need to simmer boil) if it doesn't get back to us & we will go from there

Again - the black in these crystals MAY (or not) be some of your copper/gold

The hard/solid stuff (blue/green) - thatis going to be more difficult to dissolve simple because of it's hard density - so again start with hot water - if it's dissolving the salts - but having a hard time doing so - turn it up to a simmer boil - it may take "time & you may need to add water to make up for evaporation until it's all dissolved

IF - (the BIG IF) hot water dissolves the salts (in those three experments) - STOP at that point & we will work on testing those solutions &/or looking at what does not dissolve

But lets start with what does - or not dissolve with hot water

Kurt


----------



## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> Stannous test is dark brown. Which means gold is there correct?



A stannous test for gold is *NEVER BROWN*



FrugalRefiner said:


> Nope. Dark brown means you probably used too much SMB. Dark brown is often called a false positive, but gold tests as purple to black, not brown.
> 
> Dave



What Dave said !!!



sleepyman1 said:


> The Stannous bottle has a label on it that is color coded. The Au column has purple and brown. The purple is labeled low concentration and the brown is high concentration. ????



I don't care what the color code on your stannous bottle says - a positive stannous test for gold is *ALWAYS* purple - when it is "high concentration" gold it will be so purple that it will look (almost) black - in other words black with a purple tinge/hew to the black

Whoever you are getting your stannous from does not know what they are talking about because a stannous test for gold is *NEVER BROWN* 


sleepyman1 said:


> The stannous test shows *dark brown*. According to the label on the bottle, *that means gold.*



Per the bold print - WRONG - a stannous test for gold is *NEVER BROWN*



butcher said:


> Dark brown does not mean you have gold in solution it would be more of an indication of copper or a brown color from the copper reduction from a reaction with the stannous chloride from overuse of SMB.
> Gold would be violet or purple to blackish if very concentrated (which becomes violet when diluted)



What butcher said - A stannous test (low concentration) for gold will be violet to purple & in (high concentration) will be so purple that it looks PUPLE/BLACKISH --- *NEVER BROWN

Do yourself a favor - stop buying your stannous already made up from someone that clearly does not know what the hell they are talking about - they are leading you down the wrong path*

You can make your own stannous --- go to the hardware store - buy some solder that is 95% tin 5% antimony

Cut the solder (a few grams) into small pieces - add a few ml of HCl - the HCL will dissolve the tin - the antimony does not dissolve so will settle out as a black powder - you now have your stannous for testing with

if all the solder dissolves (with the HCl) add a bit more solder until the solder no longer dissolves so that the HCl is completely saturated with tin (wont dissolve more tin) --- store your home made stannous in a small bottle with a lid/cap on it so air doesn't get to it & it should last a long time before it goes bad - you know when it's gone bad because you will see a white solid precipitate forming in the bottom of the bottle - the white precipitate mean the tin is oxidizing out of the stannous (caused by exposure to air)

so until &/or as long as you don't see that white precipitate forming in the stannous it's good to go for testing with

Kurt


----------



## kurtak

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 10 lb of fingers is probably going to yield less 1 gr of gold.



That is so absolutely wrong it is in fact false information

Depending on the fingers - (ram fingers - fingers from cards - or a mix) you should get a bare minimum of a gram per pound & more then likely between 1.5 to 2 grams & that is from modern day fingers

*Older* fingers can even run as high as 3 - 5 grams per pound

If all you got was less then a gram from 10 pounds of fingers - you did something VERY wrong & you lost MOST of your gold



ZiegenSauger said:


> For the very old extra thick memory cards, interfaces and other boards from >20 years ago one would bet 1.5 g per pound of the so called fingers of any kind.
> Today, a very sound estimate is 1/10 (0.1g) of gold per pound.
> For someone with decent control of the process, they would get 1g to 1.5 g of gold from 10 pounds of nowadays fingers.



Again - absolutely wrong - from modern day fingers you should get "at least" 1 gram per pound if not 1.5 grams per pound

If all you are getting is 1 - 1.5 grams per 10 pounds you are doing something VERY wrong & loosing MOST of your gold

Concerning the older stuff (fingers) it is not uncommon to see them run as high as 2.5 - 3 grams per pound & I have even seen (though less common) some stuff (fingers) run as high as 5 grams per pound

Same thing with old pins - they can & will run 3 - 5 grams per pound - I have seen old pins plated so heavy that the acid has a hard time getting to the base metal to dissolve the base metal away - in fact the plating can be so thick - that once the base metal is dissolved away - the gold foils will hold their shape & look just like the pins before the base metals are dissolved away


ZiegenSauger said:


> I dare to say that for the experienced folks in the forum, eWaste is either just for fun or to eWaste time and resources.


As an "experienced" refiner - running LARGE batches of fingers & pins - for 10 years - as a living --- I will gladly buy ALL of your fingers & pins (provided the pins are fully plated) based on the numbers you are providing

In other words - based on 1 - 1.5 *grams per 10 pounds* - I will pay (gladly) the high end of 1.5 grams *per 10 pounds*

Kurt


----------



## Martijn

Kurt, thank you for debunking all that disinfo. 

A piece of advice to new members: click on the members logo. How long ago he signed up is an indication for his level of experience. Not always, but generally speaking so. 

And giving advice is very tempting once you have studied a bit and gained some experience, but be sure you fully understand the problem at hand. Look at the compounds and do some research. You'll learn more from that than you think.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Martijn said:


> A piece of advice to new members: click on the members logo. How long ago he signed up is an indication for his level of experience. Not always, but generally speaking so.


You don't even need to click on their name in the new software. Just hover your cursor over the member's name and you can see when they joined and when they last visited.

Dave


----------



## Quiklearner

IMHO, this is a perfect example of jumping into things with a lack of understanding and the mess doing so can create.

It simply just isn't enough to know what chemicals to use from watching videos. You have to educate yourself how these reactions work.


----------



## Geo

There are only a couple of very specific reasons to evaporate to dryness and none of them apply to what you are doing. Rehydrate the crystals with HCl. For your problem, PH is not going to be a major problem. It just needs to be acidic. There was a process you could have used and been done by now, cementation. Add copper metal and anything more valuable would have cemented out as a metal. It could have been left to settle and gathered for further processing or melt like it is until you can learn more about what you are trying to do. 

Pick someone with the experience you need and follow what they say exactly. When you choose, pay no attention to anyone else, unless it's an admin.


----------



## Quiklearner

@Geo : Just like Kurtak, today I stumbled on this tread and while reading it I was thinking to myself "When in doubt, cement it out" as in FrugalRefiner's Oct 25 posting.


----------



## kurtak

Geo said:


> There are only a couple of very specific reasons to evaporate to dryness and none of them apply to what you are doing. Rehydrate the crystals with HCl. For your problem, PH is not going to be a major problem. It just needs to be acidic. *There was a process you could have used and been done by now, cementation. Add copper metal and anything more valuable would have cemented out as a metal*. It could have been left to settle and gathered for further processing or melt like it is until you can learn more about what you are trying to do.
> 
> Pick someone with the experience you need and follow what they say exactly. When you choose, pay no attention to anyone else, unless it's an admin.


He already tried that - he had so much bleach it dissolved all his copper without dropping any gold


sleepyman1 said:


> The copper completely dissolved. Nothing at the bottom. I'm going to try boiling away the chlorine like Geo said.



Now that he has evaporated it down to solids the gold (as well as "some" copper) may well be in those solids as "actual" gold &/or copper --- Take a look at his second picture last post - you will see what looks like actual copper in it --- so IF (the BIG IF) the salts will dissolve in water there is a good chance he will get at least some of his gold back with just water

There may (or not) be oxidizers tied up in the salts so going to HCl first may (or not) cause metal to redissolve which is why I suggest just water to start with & see what we get

If just water doesn't work then yes I would next try HCl

Even then - I have seen salts like this that will not dissolve in acid

Should that end up being the case (let's hope not) he "may" need to go to a calcination process followed by ether a leaching process &/or smelting process

Regardless - starting with 10 pounds of fingers - it is worth chasing - if nothing else - for the learning process

As we know - there is more then one way to skin a cat

Personally - IMO - I would start with the potential easiest (just water) & work up the ladder from there

ALL solutions will need testing (even just water) just to make sure

Kurt


----------



## sleepyman1

Wow, so much here suddenly. 

Look I want to be clear that I am fully aware that I was and still am ignorant to this. I thought from watching some videos that this was a pretty simple thing to do. WRONG. Also, I have psychologically accepted my dumbass mistakes and the fact that I may have FUBARed this whole thing. I would like to continue a bit more to see if I can get some gold no matter how small the amount. And to learn!

Kurt, I'm following you from now on and only you. All others, post advice if you want but, it's clear I need to pick one expert and follow only him. My eyes are on you for every step going forward Kurtak.

Kurt the sand like material dissolved almost instantly. Producing greenish liquid and a white powder. See pic. The black material dissolved quickly and produced a blueish liquid with white powder and some blackish powder at the bottom. See pic. The solid hard material did not dissolve any and I have it on heat right now. Two hours in heating I pulled a piece out and the chunk is nearly completely white. The liquid it is producing is nearly black.

The blueish liquid tested 5 pH. The greenish liquid tested 2 pH. The black liquid tested 3 pH.

Given these results, what is the next step?

The dissolved sand like material.




The dissolved black material.






Another look at the dissolved black stuff.


----------



## pfg0200

Assuming the only acid you used was HCl, the white sand is probably silver chloride 
My recommendations:
1. Make gold test solution using tin solder.
2. Test your liquids for dissolved gold.
3. If no dissolved gold - filter all the solids
4. Take the filtrate, boil in water
5. Filter again
6. Treat filtrate with HCl only. If liquid does not turn blue/green/black. Move on to 7. Otherwise, keeping treating with acid and filtering 
7. I hate the bleach method. Do this instead: purchase sodium nitrate and sulfuric acid. Take your filtrate with brown and white solids and add to large beaker. For a 2000mL beaker add: filtrate + some sodium nitrate, then slowly add 500 mL muriatic acid (HCl). Carefully using a dropper add slowly 100mL sulfuric acid (small amounts at a time).
The liquid should turn orange, forming aqua regia. The sulfuric acid helps remove lead. Gently heat, observe to see if all the brown dissolved. If no, try adding a little more sodium nitrate. When all the brown dissolved, heat until no NOX is forming.
Let cool and test with gold test solution. Filter the solution. The liquid passing through the filter should be dissolved gold. Drop and repeat


----------



## Yggdrasil

pfg0200 said:


> Assuming the only acid you used was HCl, the white sand is probably silver chloride
> My recommendations:
> 1. Make gold test solution using tin solder.
> 2. Test your liquids for dissolved gold.
> 3. If no dissolved gold - filter all the solids
> 4. Take the filtrate, boil in water
> 5. Filter again
> 6. Treat filtrate with HCl only. If liquid does not turn blue/green/black. Move on to 7. Otherwise, keeping treating with acid and filtering
> 7. I hate the bleach method. Do this instead: purchase sodium nitrate and sulfuric acid. Take your filtrate with brown and white solids and add to large beaker. For a 2000mL beaker add: filtrate + some sodium nitrate, then slowly add 500 mL muriatic acid (HCl). Carefully using a dropper add slowly 100mL sulfuric acid (small amounts at a time).
> The liquid should turn orange, forming aqua regia. The sulfuric acid helps remove lead. Gently heat, observe to see if all the brown dissolved. If no, try adding a little more sodium nitrate. When all the brown dissolved, heat until no NOX is forming.
> Let cool and test with gold test solution. Filter the solution. The liquid passing through the filter should be dissolved gold. Drop and repeat


Pfg
He has stated he is following Kurt.
This procedure is way to advanced at his current level.
So let him take his steps with Kurt.
When his next venture arrives, he may expand his horizon with some one else


----------



## kurtak

pfg0200 said:


> Assuming the only acid you used was HCl, the white sand is probably silver chloride



pfg - if you go back & read his first post - he started with 10 pounds of fingers - used CuCl2 (aka AP) to recover gold foils - he then used HCl + Cl2 (chlorine) - (bleach for Cl2 source) to dissolve foils

So NO silver involved (so "no" AgCl)

He *WAY* over shot the bleach --- tried to drop gold with SMB but no gold due to VERY excessive Cl2 in solution

So he tried to cement with copper putting copper in solution as CuCl2

Without going into more details he has done a couple other things to "more then likely" cause the CuCl2 to reduce to CuCl - or copper(1)chloride --- which does not dissolve in water but dissolves in HCL

so at this point the white sands/powder is likely CuCl --- as well as "possibly" other salts (likely sodium salts) considering "other" things done 




pfg0200 said:


> 7. I hate the bleach method. Do this instead: purchase sodium nitrate and sulfuric acid. Take your filtrate with brown and white solids and add to large beaker. For a 2000mL beaker add: filtrate + some sodium nitrate, then slowly add 500 mL muriatic acid (HCl). Carefully using a dropper add slowly 100mL sulfuric acid (small amounts at a time).
> The liquid should turn orange, forming aqua regia. The sulfuric acid helps remove lead. Gently heat, observe to see if all the brown dissolved. If no, try adding a little more sodium nitrate. When all the brown dissolved, heat until no NOX is forming.
> Let cool and test with gold test solution. Filter the solution. The liquid passing through the filter should be dissolved gold. Drop and repeat



that is certainly "one" way to skin the cat - but - first we need to find the gold - (not sure at this point if its in solution - in the solids - or both)

once we find the gold we will move forward with how to get it where he can melt a button or bar

Kurt


----------



## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> Wow, so much here suddenly.
> 
> Look I want to be clear that I am fully aware that I was and still am ignorant to this. I thought from watching some videos that this was a pretty simple thing to do. WRONG. Also, I have psychologically accepted my dumbass mistakes and the fact that I may have FUBARed this whole thing. I would like to continue a bit more to see if I can get some gold no matter how small the amount. And to learn!



Not a problem - we OFTEN get people that end up getting in trouble from watching you tube videos --- those videos (for the most part) are VERY limited in the info they provide - which leads to problems - those problems then "often" end up here & here is the place where we solve those problems


sleepyman1 said:


> Kurt, I'm following you from now on and only you. All others, post advice if you want but, it's clear I need to pick one expert and follow only him. My eyes are on you for every step going forward Kurtak.



Thank you for the vote of confidence - BUT - I am not the only one you should take advice from - as I have said "there is more then one way to skin a cat AND I don't know everything - there are others here very much qualified to help you - in fact in this situation likely more qualified as I personally have never used the HCl/bleach process

Thats because I have always been able to get nitric acid VERY CHEAP so have always used nitric to dissolve my gold rather then the (several) other "work arounds" for dissolving gold

*In this case* - if I had to trust ONE other person (there are others BUT in this case) picking ONE it would be Geo

I trust Geo absolutely - you can trust him as well - so I hope he will chime in as well

My next post will be to address your situation now that you have dissolved what you can with water

Kurt


----------



## kurtak

Sleepyman1

From your pictures - it looks like you are working out of regular canning jars - those are made of lime glass & though you can "get away" with using them - they are subject to breaking when you apply heat to them which in turn can/will lead to loosing everything when they break

we need to get you better equipped (your gold isn't going anywhere)

Besides needing to put things on a hot plate - chemical reactions produce heat which can cause "jars" to break --- also - do not trust Pyrex like Pyrex measuring cups etc.

You need to get some borosilicate glassware - beakers are made of borosilicate glass - so are coffee pots - go to the local thrift store & buy yourself some glass coffee pots - also when you are at the thrift store - if you see any Vision Ware pots like these - BUY THEM



https://www.amazon.com/Visions-5-piece-Cookware-Set/dp/B076HV5HLS/ref=asc_df_B076HV5HLS?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80882875798445&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584482455093644&psc=1



That said - lets move on from where you are now that you have dissolved what has dissolved with water

You have three different things - we will address them one at a time



sleepyman1 said:


> The solid hard material did not dissolve any and I have it on heat right now.



If - as it appears - you are working out of "jars" I am a bit concerned --- I hope it has not broke on the hot plate &/or if you took it off the hot plate broke when it cooled

If it is still on the hot plate (& has not broke) take it off the hot plate BUT FIRST have a "catch bucket" to put the jar in when you take the jar off the hot plate as the jar "may" break when it cools --- if you think the jar is hot enough to melt plastic put a plate in the bottom of the bucket & set the jar on the plate

Once you get some glass coffee pots to work out of (&/or Vision Ware) we will get back to this



sleepyman1 said:


> The black material dissolved quickly and produced a blueish liquid with white powder and some blackish powder at the bottom



Lets address this one first as I "think" the black solids "may be" where at least "some" of your gold (& copper) is

The white solids are likely copper(1)chloride (CuCl) and as well "may be" some sodium salts/compounds

The CuCl will dissolve in HCl --- the sodium (if any) may - or not - dissolve with HCl --- that doesn't really matter at this time - but - what we want to do is get rid of the CuCl

So what you need to do if pour or siphon off as much of the blue water as you can leaving the solids in the jar (the more water you can pour/siphon off the better)

A plastic bucket will work fine for putting the blue water in (we still need to test this)

Then - the solids in the jar - you can do this in the jar (though a coffee pot would be better) just be sure you do it with the jar in a catch bucket/pan --- add some HCl - the HCl will dissolve any CuCl --- it may - or not dissolve other stuff - that's what we want to find out

Start with a couple cups of HCl --- lets see what dissolves & what doesn't - if not everything dissolves add another cup or two of HCl & see if more dissolves - or not --- test for Ph - you want to get to Ph 1

If nothing more dissolves (assuming there are still solids) after the second addition of HCl (& Ph is at 1) we are done with this step

Test this HCl acid solution with stannous

Let us know the results & we can then move on to the next step with these solids

Concerning the blue water you poured off



sleepyman1 said:


> The blueish liquid tested 5 pH.



you clearly have copper dissolved in this water & more likely then not there is no gold in this otherwise it would likely be more green then blue - BUT - we want to test just to be sure

Ph 5 is high for an accurate stannous test so you want to adjust the Ph down to at least Ph 2 with HCl --- it won't take much - start with say 2 or 3 ounces & add an ounce at a time till you hit (at least) Ph 2 & then test with your stannous

There is more then one way to do a stannous test - my preferred way is to dip a Q-tip in the solution to get it wet & then put a drop of stannous on the solution wetted Q-tip which will turn purple if gold is in solution

So if you don't get a (purple) positive stannous test we are done with that solution & it can go in you waste solution bucket (we will deal with your waste later)

IF (the BIG IF) you do get a positive test we will deal with that once we know that

Lets get this one done - see what the results are - before moving on

Just a couple more notes; ------

These things always work better if you can provide heat so it's better if you can do it in a coffee pot on a hot plate at a "low" setting --- in this case you can "get way" doing it cold in a jar as the CuCl is easily dissolved in HCl - just be sure to keep the jar in a catch bucket/pan

Also - when dissolving these solids you want to stir them up into the acid so you need a plastic or glass spoon/rod --- NEVER use metal

Kurt


----------



## sleepyman1

OK. You and Geo it is going forward.

I'm using Pyrex kitchenware right now. The images show plastic containers I used for storage after I dissolved it in the Pyrex. I've had it on the heat all day and night and so far so good. I have access to high school chemistry equipment the teacher would probably let me borrow things. Would those beakers suffice? If not I will buy my own. How does this set look to you?






Amazon.com: Glass Beaker Set of 6 Borosilicate Thick Low Form - 25ml, 50ml, 100ml, 250ml, 500ml, 1000ml : Industrial & Scientific


Amazon.com: Glass Beaker Set of 6 Borosilicate Thick Low Form - 25ml, 50ml, 100ml, 250ml, 500ml, 1000ml : Industrial & Scientific



www.amazon.com





The hard chunks of material produced a very black liquid and had only dissolved about 20%, I'm guessing. This evening I siphoned off that liquid and added fresh water. I saved the liquid in a plastic container. Was that OK?

I'll have 95/5 solder by Friday and will make my own stannous. Then I'll start dissolving and testing with that.

So much to do. I'll get started on all of the work this weekend

Thanks a lot!


----------



## sleepyman1

An update.

The black liquid that I siphoned off has now reformed a solid at the bottom of the container. It was 100% liquid when I siphoned it out. Now it has solids forming. There is still black liquid on top of it.

The fresh water that I poured into the remaining original solids formed a deeper blue liquid. All of the chunks are gone. Now a white powder is there. Like the other containers.


----------



## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> An update.
> 
> The black liquid that I siphoned off has now reformed a solid at the bottom of the container. It was 100% liquid when I siphoned it out. Now it has solids forming. There is still black liquid on top of it.
> 
> The fresh water that I poured into the remaining original solids formed a deeper blue liquid. All of the chunks are gone. * Now a white powder is there*. Like the other containers.



Hot solutions will hold more dissolved salts then a cold solution (whether those dissolved salts are metal salts or chemical salts)

so when you used hot water to dissolve those chunks (& it all dissolved) when the water cooled "some" of those salts recrystallized --- you just need more water to re-dissolve them --- because they are not "hard chunks" this time they will dissolve easier now

Per the bold print (in above quote) - again - the white powders (salts) are likely CuCl &/or sodium salts

Until you get your solder to make your stannous just let things sit (that will give any solids that didn't dissolve time to settle)

When you have your stannous we will move forward - *one step at a time* - with the different solutions &/or solids

don't confuse the issue by doing this & that - your gold isn't going anywhere

*One thing - one step - at a time*

All I have time for today

Kurt


----------



## sleepyman1

Here is the stannous test result. The black dots came from the stannous. Doesn't the crystals in the black solution have a gold tinge to them?

From left to right: Green solution, Green solution, Blue solution, Black solution.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

sleepyman1 said:


> Here is the stannous test result. The black dots came from the stannous. Doesn't the crystals in the black solution have a gold tinge to them?


I can see almost any color I want to see there. I see black, tan/yellow/gold, purple, green, blue, etc. I'm not trying to be a jerk (though some folks might say that comes naturally to me), but I don't see gold tinged crystals.

Gold can sometimes (rarely) precipitate in such a way that it can actually form crystals large enough to be visibly gold. But what I see from your pictures looks like residual base metal salts. I don't see the classic purple stain I would expect for gold. Have you tested your stannous to be sure it is still effective?

Dave


----------



## sleepyman1

Just an update. Didn't want this thread to die.
I just received my beakers. So, I'll be moving the solutions to them. Also, between work and the crap weather we've had here I haven't been able to do anything. But, maybe tomorrow.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

Yeah, the low was in single digits last night (fahrenheit), and it only got up to the low 20s today. So I used the day to defrost my freezer. Lemonade from lemons. 

Dave


----------



## sleepyman1

So I reduced the ph of the solutions down to 2. Did a stannous test and the results are in the picture. I'm awaiting further instruction. The solution colors are Green1 Green2 Blue and Black.


----------



## FrugalRefiner

I don't see enough to make me chase whatever might be there. I'm not saying there's nothing there, because perhaps the pictures don't really reflect what you're seeing. But I don't see a strong enough result to make me spend a lot more time and chemicals on it.

If it were mine, I would send it to the stockpot. Cementation will recover anything that is there. See When In Doubt, Cement It Out.

Dave


----------



## Swissgoldrefiner

Dont follow my advice, as it's only theorically, never tryed, but
If it was me...i will add NaOH and good amount of water:
Most of metal hydroxyde have very very low solubility in water. So then i will have ONLY metal hydroxyde, like Copper hydroxyde, gold hydroxyde, etc...
At least at that point no more other salt than metal. Then i will dry it to have the salt in form of powder.
Then maybe dissolve it in dilute sulfuric acid hoping that i will dissolve Copper and that gold sulfate have maybe low solubility.
If both dissolve in dilute sulfuric, then i will add SMB, hoping that SMB will precipitate the gold from the gold sulfate.


----------



## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> Just an update. Didn't want this thread to die.
> I just received my beakers. So, I'll be moving the solutions to them. Also, between work and the crap weather we've had here I haven't been able to do anything. But, maybe tomorrow.


Sorry sleepyman1 but I did not see that you had posted updates to this thread after my last post until today

I don't have time right now but will try to get back to this - this weekend

For right now I have one question concerning the pics of the stannous tests you have provided

from the black solution - does the black - of the stannous test pictures - only show up after doing the stannous test - or is that black there when you put a drop of the solution only on the paper & before adding the stannous

To confirm what I am asking put two drops from that solution on your paper - then put a drop of stannous on *only one* of the two drops from that solution - take a pic & post it

I want to see the difference between that solution (on the paper) - one drop without stannous & one drop with stannous

Kurt


----------



## kurtak

Swissgoldrefiner said:


> Dont follow my advice, as it's only theorically, never tryed, but
> If it was me...i will add NaOH and good amount of water:
> Most of metal hydroxyde have very very low solubility in water. So then i will have ONLY metal hydroxyde, like Copper hydroxyde, gold hydroxyde, etc...
> At least at that point no more other salt than metal. Then i will dry it to have the salt in form of powder.
> Then maybe dissolve it in dilute sulfuric acid hoping that i will dissolve Copper and that gold sulfate have maybe low solubility.
> If both dissolve in dilute sulfuric, then i will add SMB, hoping that SMB will precipitate the gold from the gold sulfate.


There is no need to do this 

Right now there are only three possibilities of where his gold is 

1) it is in his solutions
2) it is in the undissolved solids
3) some of it is in the solutions - some of it is in the undissolved solids

We just need to find where the gold is & then get the gold back - as gold

there is no reason to drop metals - as hydroxides - from solutions that have no gold in them

if a solution has gold in it (positive stannous test) we can get the gold back from that solution without first turning it to a hydroxide

if the gold is in (some) of the solids we will get that gold back out of those solids - without adding a bunch of hydroxides to those solids

what you suggest is taking a step backwards rather the going forward

Kurt


----------



## sleepyman1

This is from the black liquid. I don't know why it's green on the cloth. The green spot is before adding the stannous and the black spot is after adding it.


----------



## Yggdrasil

It don't look like gold to me. 
But photos may be tricky in here.


----------



## orvi

I see a "maybe" gold (??), as Yggdrasil said, it don´t look as very golden-like stain. But it could be.
There is easy way how to find it out - and if it´s there, you will be able to collect it. It is a full procedure, but regarding your stannous tests - its unconclusive. I will run the full procedure - it is quite simple, only two lengthier steps are there (heating/cooling and filtration). Could be done in few hours and you will be done with it, either gold is or isn´t there.

Do not skip any step:

Take the mentioned solution in a beaker. That way you fill the beaker with liquid to max. 50%.

Heat it to around 70°C. Add sulfamic acid SLOWLY, only tip of a teaspoon at time and observe the reaction. Stir. Adjust the rate of addition to intensity of fizzing. If it stops fizzing or there is no fizzing, this step is done.

Cool the solution throughly to room temperature. Do not continue with hot/warm solution. You could add few ice cubes to speed the cooling process. This could also help to precipitate silver chloride from the solution.

If it has any kind of precipitate, filter it crystal clean. Rinse with minimal necessary water. If it contain silver, upon dilution it will immediately come out as cloudiness.

Assure that solution is strongly acidic (pH<1) - it seems like it standed somewhere for a long time and good portion of the acid could have been evaporated. If it isn´t, add some hydrochloric acid. 20-30 mL should do it. Addition of HCl could also help you to clear the cloudiness from AgCl.

After filtering, add SMB or sodium sulfite dissolved in water. This way you lower the possibility of precipitating some junk salts with gold (added volume of water help to dilute things a bit). Judging by the "positiveness" of the stannous test (and assuming its gold), maybe two teaspoons will be enough.

After addition, stir it well and close the beaker with watchglass/lid. You want that SO2 formed to stay in the vessel.

Let it sit overnight, and in the morning SLOWLY observe if some powder appeared on the bottom. Do not disturb the solution or shake the beaker, as you will swirl the powder and suspend it in solution again.
Solution is blackish-green. Light a LED on your phone or use normal torch - aim it on the bottom edge of the beaker - this will help you better see if there is any precipitate formed.

Precipitate of gold should be brownish in colour, and also could be nearly black if some fine particles formed.

If no precipitate appear, add one more teaspoon of SMB/sulfite dissolved in water, stir, let it sit overnight and observe again.

If again nothing precipitate from the solution, there is negligible or no gold.


----------



## kurtak

orvi said:


> I see a "maybe" gold (??), as Yggdrasil said, it don´t look as very golden-like stain. But it could be.


IMO this is where his gold is (at least some of it - some of it may still be in his solid that did not dissolve in earlier steps)

As we know - a stannous test for gold will result in purple to *black* (depending on concentration of gold in solution)

To the best of my knowledge I don't know of anything else (metal or chemical) that will result in a black result with a stannous test 


orvi said:


> There is easy way how to find it out


Orvi -there is an easier way (then the rest of what you posted) to *test* to confirm gold

Take a "small" sample - couple ounces (or 50 ml) of the solution * put it in a small cup/jar/beaker & put some copper in it --- (Ph needs to be 1 or no more then 2)

If there is gold (in solution) the copper will cement the gold 

Ovri - concerning the rest of your post - keep in mind that he has already added a HUGE amount of chem in his original attempt to recover his gold - he has basically made a HUGE chemical mess/soup

Therefore - personally - I would not add even more chem in trying to "recover" the gold

I would simply cement it with copper as a recovery step

Not saying chem recovery won't work - just don't need to complicate the recovery process

considering the "soup" he has made he is likely to have drag down anyway

Copper = one step with gold recovered --- copper (when done right) should give him back 98 *plus* gold (IF this is in fact where his gold is

At the very least - the above copper test is what I would do "first" to confirm gold

For the test I would use 10 (or 12) gauge wire 

Kurt


----------



## orvi

kurtak said:


> IMO this is where his gold is (at least some of it - some of it may still be in his solid that did not dissolve in earlier steps)
> 
> As we know - a stannous test for gold will result in purple to *black* (depending on concentration of gold in solution)
> 
> To the best of my knowledge I don't know of anything else (metal or chemical) that will result in a black result with a stannous test
> 
> Orvi -there is an easier way (then the rest of what you posted) to *test* to confirm gold
> 
> Take a "small" sample - couple ounces (or 50 ml) of the solution * put it in a small cup/jar/beaker & put some copper in it --- (Ph needs to be 1 or no more then 2)
> 
> If there is gold (in solution) the copper will cement the gold
> 
> Ovri - concerning the rest of your post - keep in mind that he has already added a HUGE amount of chem in his original attempt to recover his gold - he has basically made a HUGE chemical mess/soup
> 
> Therefore - personally - I would not add even more chem in trying to "recover" the gold
> 
> I would simply cement it with copper as a recovery step
> 
> Not saying chem recovery won't work - just don't need to complicate the recovery process
> 
> considering the "soup" he has made he is likely to have drag down anyway
> 
> Copper = one step with gold recovered --- copper (when done right) should give him back 98 *plus* gold (IF this is in fact where his gold is
> 
> At the very least - the above copper test is what I would do "first" to confirm gold
> 
> For the test I would use 10 (or 12) gauge wire
> 
> Kurt


Yes. This would be easier to perform, you are right. I did not considered the already difficult mixture of chemicals he made. I meant it more like educational procedure which he will use also in the future when refining.

Going with copper would simplify everything, neutralize any excess oxidants etc


----------



## FrugalRefiner

When In Doubt, Cement It Out

Dave


----------



## netgeek3

cejohnsonsr1 said:


> If you were referring to sreetips, that was pins. Not fingers. His yield was a little over 22 gr but he paid $1k for the pins and used about 4 gallons of Nitric. Fingers are nearly all PCB. The gold is plated over copper (mostly) in a layer only a few atoms thick. Older material is a little better, but not by much.


Sorry, but this is incorrect. He purchase 6 lbs of trimmed fingers for $80 and obtained 11+ grams of gold. You can see the video here


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## Martijn

818 dollar is what i see in the video...so that was a loss at 75 a gram without processing costs.


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## FrugalRefiner

netgeek3 said:


> He purchase 6 lbs of trimmed fingers for $80 and obtained 11+ grams of gold.


As Martijn pointed out, according to the video, the price was $800.00 plus $18.00 shipping, not $80.00.

Dave


----------



## sleepyman1

Hey everyone I appreciate all the input. Kurt thanks a lot for hanging in here for me. I'm going to do what you suggest Friday or Saturday. 

When I'm cementing, should it be cold or with heat?


----------



## cejohnsonsr1

netgeek3 said:


> Sorry, but this is incorrect. He purchase 6 lbs of trimmed fingers for $80 and obtained 11+ grams of gold. You can see the video here



The latest video I saw was pins at the price and yield I mentioned. I saw the video you referenced too. It was $800 plus shipping and the yield didn’t cover the cost of the material or processing.


----------



## sleepyman1

Is this what cementing is supposed to look like? This only after about 2 hours of letting the copper sit in the solution with heat.


----------



## Martijn

I never cement with heat. I don't think it has any advantage. 
A little agitation is desirable. 

About the color, looks like slimy silver and gold cement to me. 
To be sure:
Ag and Pd dissolve in HNO3, gold in cold AR, And Pt in hot AR. Generally speaking.
I would dissolve the cement in those steps and test the different solutions with stannous to see what you have. 

Pgm's in solution are highly toxic. Be extremely carefull and work clean and safe!! 
If there's only a bit of pgm's, let the stockpot deal with it, or use it to gain experience in testing. 
Refining pgm's is the next level of refining imo. Rocket science. 
I just use the stockpot for any traces that might be present. 
Never had a clear positive for pgm's with stannous though.


----------



## orvi

sleepyman1 said:


> Is this what cementing is supposed to look like? This only after about 2 hours of letting the copper sit in the solution with heat.View attachment 48442
> View attachment 48443


Yes, this have the look I will expect for mixed Au,Ag,PGM cement. Need to be tested after cementation is done of course, but just looking at it, looks promising. Agitate the solution for better results. PGM slimes tend to stick to the copper and significantly slow the process of cementation.


----------



## sleepyman1

What's best practice in cementing? I tried leaving the copper in for a while and it began to dissolve. So, I stopped. How often should I pull out the copper and spray off the cement?


----------



## FrugalRefiner

See When In Doubt, Cement It Out.

Dave


----------



## sleepyman1

I put a about a foot of 1/2 inch copper tubing in the solution at 1ph to 2ph and no heat, using air to agitate. 95% of the copper dissolved and nothing dropped. The solution appears even blacker now.

So, at this point I think I need to move on to the solids (SMB). Maybe some gold is there?

How should I proceed at this point?

I'm thinking the gold just disappeared into the either, which sucks but at least I've learned a lot.


----------



## Alondro

goldshark said:


> Just curious about the source of your scrap. Here is the reason. Last summer, a bunch of gypsies claiming to be from Dubai, were all over Colorado. They had a song and dance about getting their ID's and money stolen, but they had a bunch of jewelry stamped 14k + 18K. They sold it for 1/2 of spot. Problem was, there is absolutely no gold in it. It assayed something like 70% Copper, rest Tin, Zinc, and to give it a high specific gravity, Actinium. When put in Nitric, the stuff practically explodes, it is so reactive. A lot of people got suckered by these a--holes. The residue looks just like what you have, hence the question about the source stock.


Actinium?! I think you mean cesium or barium, both of which are extremely reactive in water, and in acid would indeed produce an explosive reaction. Actinium is HIGHLY radioactive and has a half-life of only 21 years. It's produced in reactors in only milligram amounts.


----------



## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> I put a about a foot of 1/2 inch copper tubing in the solution at 1ph to 2ph and no heat, using air to agitate. *95% of the copper dissolved and nothing dropped. *



Per the bold print - If the copper is still dissolving then the cementing process is not done so you need to keep adding copper until it stops dissolving the copper --- the gold will not drop until the cementing process is done



sleepyman1 said:


> The solution appears even blacker now.



yes the solution is going to get darker as more copper dissolves



sleepyman1 said:


> How should I proceed at this point?



continue adding copper until you are sure no more copper is dissolving - then let it (the solution) sit for a day so any gold settles to bottom of beaker (you should be able to see the settled gold on the bottom of the beaker - because the solution is VERY DARK you may need to look up at the bottom of the beaker to see it- (IF - gold was in the solution) - decant &/or siphon the solution off & start the washing process of the settled gold (IF - in fact we end up with cemented gold)

We will discuss that washing process - IF - we actually find gold - at the end of the cementing process (which is not completed if copper is still dissolving)

Kurt


----------



## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> Is this what cementing is supposed to look like? This only after about 2 hours of letting the copper sit in the solution with heat.View attachment 48442
> View attachment 48443



Sorry I did not see this until today - but yes - the brownish/tan that you see on the copper is clearly gold

Will talk about those pics when I get more time

one question though --- what did you do with that copper - as in did you put it back in the solution (to continue with cements process) & or clean it off first - if so how did you clean it

Kurt


----------



## kurtak

Opps - we need to back up just a bit from my first post today in which I said to continue with the cementing process

BUT - first you should do a stannous test - just like the one where I had you put two drops of the solution on paper - then put a drop of stannous on just one of the drops of the solution 

If you get the same kind of result then where you get purple/black with the stannous - then continue with the cementing process

Clearly based on the pics you posted of the copper there is/was gold in solution

the whole purpose of stannous testing is to "first" see if gold is in solution - & then further test to see if/when all the gold has been dropped/recovered from solution

So you test until you get no more positive result

Kurt


----------



## Alondro

kurtak said:


> Opps - we need to back up just a bit from my first post today in which I said to continue with the cementing process
> 
> BUT - first you should do a stannous test - just like the one where I had you put two drops of the solution on paper - then put a drop of stannous on just one of the drops of the solution
> 
> If you get the same kind of result then where you get purple/black with the stannous - then continue with the cementing process
> 
> Clearly based on the pics you posted of the copper there is/was gold in solution
> 
> the whole purpose of stannous testing is to "first" see if gold is in solution - & then further test to see if/when all the gold has been dropped/recovered from solution
> 
> So you test until you get no more positive result
> 
> Kurt


I had an interesting result when I dissolved a small test batch of lightly-plated pins about a year ago (just 20 grams of low-grade pins, a test to see if total dissolution in nitric would permit recovery... it doesn't! Makes a lot of goo, insoluble aluminum nitride and tin oxynitrate from brass and so forth). I used some old hydroxyquinones (high purity, but too old for the lab I worked at to risk using for high-precision experiments any longer) to try and reduce it, and it created a thick dark red-brown ooze. So, I slowly dried it and had a brown, crumbly glassy material that resembled partially-burned sugar. On a whim, I crushed and mixed it with charcoal dust and heated it over an alcohol flame several times in a small steel dish, cooling and remixing with the carbon, heating each time to a red glow until the carbon all burned away.

Then, I washed the results in a test tube and shook it gently for several minutes to settle anything heavy at the bottom... and viola! Tiny beads of gold had been produced! They were so small I had to use the best magnifying glass I had to see them, but there was a fair bit of it which collected into a little glittery yellow blob at the bottom of the tube. I was then able to use HCl and a couple drops of bleach to dissolve and recover it from the rest of the sediment. 

I suspect the heating over and over gradually concentrated the diffuse gold bound to the organic material, and perhaps reduced a little more that was held in covalent complexes with other multivalent metal salts. I've heard that this process takes place in mountain woodlands where tannin-rich tree roots (like oaks) can leach out and deposit very fine gold dust as they dig into rocks, then die and break down. I've also seen papers describing processes by which certain bacteria and fungi can concentrate gold into finely-divided particles by similar organic chemical processes.

Further digging found a method using hydoxyquinones to create gold nanorods for biological and nanotech applications.

So, it appears hydroxyquinones can grab even slight amounts of gold from a very messy solution, BUT it takes a fair amount of work to recover it as it mostly comes out in nanoscale.


----------



## sleepyman1

@kurtak I will continue with the copper tomorrow. Thanks for the update.

@Alondro WOW, you're taking about using plants to find gold. You are WAY beyond my skills friend, thanks for contributing though.


----------



## Barstool miner

sleepyman1 said:


> @Lino1406
> 
> I don't have any SO2 so I don't know what it smells like. It does have a strong odor though. Not as strong as HCL but its there. Probably because I have so much water and SMB in it???
> 
> @acpeacemaker
> 
> Thanks for all that but my gold has already been dissolved in the HCL bleach solution. I mixed my SMB with water and then added it. It's been on low heat for 2 days now and nothing has dropped. The solution is a light green color now. What the heck am I doing wrong? Getting nervous.


SO2 smells like burned matches , Lay man's talk "the gas is called Sulphur Dioxide


----------



## Alondro

sleepyman1 said:


> @kurtak I will continue with the copper tomorrow. Thanks for the update.
> 
> @Alondro WOW, you're taking about using plants to find gold. You are WAY beyond my skills friend, thanks for contributing though.


Nah, I've just researched the heck out of various possible gold deposits and natural mechanisms of reducing gold in situ. When you actually get out into the field and look at the vast area of rocks and trees... it all becomes overwheming! It's simply a cool this to look for if you find a vein that look promising, especially if there are sulfides. Scrap some material around any oak roots (or black walnut) piercing the rock, especially if there's a lot of organic-looking brown staining from them, it might tell you something useful. 

You can use black walnut husks and shells as a source of hydroquinones too. There are some protocols for the extraction. BUYING hydroquinones are expensive, and the high purity of lab-grade isn't necessary for this sort of method. 

This autumn when there are lots of black walnuts, I may try the entire protocol from start to finish and see how it works on a modestly dilute gold solution to recover organic-gold complexes as the red-brown goo.


----------



## Martijn

Before you go using this compound that is made up of benzene look at the safety aspects. 
From wiki: 
_"The FDA stated that hydroquinone cannot be ruled out as a potential __carcinogen_"
Burning that to ash might not be a good idea.


----------



## kurtak

Alondro said:


> I had an interesting result when I dissolved a small test batch of lightly-plated pins about a year ago (just 20 grams of low-grade pins, a test to see if total dissolution in nitric would permit recovery... it doesn't! Makes a lot of goo, insoluble aluminum nitride and tin oxynitrate from brass and so forth).


I am sorry but this post is absolutely FULL of mis-information !!!

First of all - lets talk about the pins (from electronic scrap) the pins can be made of "many" different metals

so what acid you use will depend on the pins

pins can be brass - an alloy of copper & zinc - the most common type pins - & will most certainly FULLY dissolve in nitric

or they can be made of phosphor bronze - an alloy of copper & tin - & although found in E-scrap are less common then brass pins - because of the tin in them - yes - nitric will cause the "goo" you saw - (we will talk more about that goo) therefore your 20 gram sample was likely phosphor bronze

my point is that just because you had 20 grams of phosphor bronze pins does not mean that nitric doesn't work to dissolve pins because the fact is MOST pins are brass which will fully dissolve in nitric

then - though rare - pins can be actual copper - which again will "fully" dissolve in nitric

Then there are pins made of kovar - most commonly found on CPUs - they will dissolve with ether nitric or HCl - kovar is very difficult to dissolve & the acid (nitric or HCl) needs to be HOT - straight "hot" HCl works better then straight hot nitric on kovar - however --- you can improve the dissolving of kovar by using nitric with the addition of some sulfuric - it takes* VERY LITTLE* sulfuric to improve the reaction of nitric on kovar

then there are SS (Stainless Steel) pins - also not real common - nitric does not react with SS so wont dissolve them - HCl however will - but slow doing so & creates a lot of waste - so there is another method that can/will recover gold from SS pins - it's call *reverse* AR --- reverse AR is a bit of a tricky process that uses MORE nitric & VERY little HCl - but it will strip (dissolve) the gold from the SS & leave the SS untouched by the acid (when done right)

Now then - lets talk about aluminum & nitric (& the supposed aluminum nitride goo)

Nitric - unless *VERY* dilute - does not react with aluminum - rather - what nitric does with aluminum - is it creates a VERY thin (few atoms thick) aluminum "oxide" layer on the surface of the aluminum - that (few atoms) oxide layer creates a passivation layer thereby preventing the nitric from reacting with the aluminum - in other words - prevents the nitric from dissolving the aluminum &/or turning it into some kind of goo

Now then - lets talk about this so called tin oxynitrate (or tin goo)

In the world of refining - that "tin goo" is called meta stannic acid (or stannic tin for short) - & yes - that goo is caused by the reaction of tin with nitric - which can be the result of solder or bronze (not brass)

Therefore - though yes - when processing pins with nitric - you may well encounter this problem of meta stannic acid (the goo) - whether as a result of solder - or bronze --- there is actually a "very simple" way of dealing with the stannic tin

First (like most every other process we do in refining) you wash the acid out of the solids --- in this case it would be the gold foils along with the stannic tin

Once you have washed the (nitric) acid out (at least MOST of it) you can then dry the foils & stannic tin

after drying you then incinerate the foils/stannic tin

the incineration process causes the stannic tin to convert to tin oxide - the tin oxide can then be simply dissolved away with HCl - which then allows you to dissolve your foils with AR or HCl/bleach

You can read more about dealing with stannic tin here









Metastannic Acid Experiment


I have been doing some low grade pins in HNO3(nitric), as we know it creates Metastannic Acid and it is hard to get the gold foils. I have found an easy way to rid the Metastannic and its works for me. Here is the process i used today along with pics, The steps are as follows, Put the gold...




goldrefiningforum.com





as well you can do a search of other things I have posted about stannic tin using stannic tin as search words & my user name as I have posted much about dealing with stannic tin over the years

In other words - the rest of your post (& the B.S. about hydroxyquinones) is just that - *pure* *B.S.*

Therefore I will not even comment on the rest of your post - for there is a simple - long proven method for dealing with stannic tin - if/when created

Kurt


----------



## Alondro

kurtak said:


> I am sorry but this post is absolutely FULL of mis-information !!!
> 
> First of all - lets talk about the pins (from electronic scrap) the pins can be made of "many" different metals
> 
> so what acid you use will depend on the pins
> 
> pins can be brass - an alloy of copper & zinc - the most common type pins - & will most certainly FULLY dissolve in nitric
> 
> or they can be made of phosphor bronze - an alloy of copper & tin - & although found in E-scrap are less common then brass pins - because of the tin in them - yes - nitric will cause the "goo" you saw - (we will talk more about that goo) therefore your 20 gram sample was likely phosphor bronze
> 
> my point is that just because you had 20 grams of phosphor bronze pins does not mean that nitric doesn't work to dissolve pins because the fact is MOST pins are brass which will fully dissolve in nitric
> 
> then - though rare - pins can be actual copper - which again will "fully" dissolve in nitric
> 
> Then there are pins made of kovar - most commonly found on CPUs - they will dissolve with ether nitric or HCl - kovar is very difficult to dissolve & the acid (nitric or HCl) needs to be HOT - straight "hot" HCl works better then straight hot nitric on kovar - however --- you can improve the dissolving of kovar by using nitric with the addition of some sulfuric - it takes* VERY LITTLE* sulfuric to improve the reaction of nitric on kovar
> 
> then there are SS (Stainless Steel) pins - also not real common - nitric does not react with SS so wont dissolve them - HCl however will - but slow doing so & creates a lot of waste - so there is another method that can/will recover gold from SS pins - it's call *reverse* AR --- reverse AR is a bit of a tricky process that uses MORE nitric & VERY little HCl - but it will strip (dissolve) the gold from the SS & leave the SS untouched by the acid (when done right)
> 
> Now then - lets talk about aluminum & nitric (& the supposed aluminum nitride goo)
> 
> Nitric - unless *VERY* dilute - does not react with aluminum - rather - what nitric does with aluminum - is it creates a VERY thin (few atoms thick) aluminum "oxide" layer on the surface of the aluminum - that (few atoms) oxide layer creates a passivation layer thereby preventing the nitric from reacting with the aluminum - in other words - prevents the nitric from dissolving the aluminum &/or turning it into some kind of goo
> 
> Now then - lets talk about this so called tin oxynitrate (or tin goo)
> 
> In the world of refining - that "tin goo" is called meta stannic acid (or stannic tin for short) - & yes - that goo is caused by the reaction of tin with nitric - which can be the result of solder or bronze (not brass)
> 
> Therefore - though yes - when processing pins with nitric - you may well encounter this problem of meta stannic acid (the goo) - whether as a result of solder - or bronze --- there is actually a "very simple" way of dealing with the stannic tin
> 
> First (like most every other process we do in refining) you wash the acid out of the solids --- in this case it would be the gold foils along with the stannic tin
> 
> Once you have washed the (nitric) acid out (at least MOST of it) you can then dry the foils & stannic tin
> 
> after drying you then incinerate the foils/stannic tin
> 
> the incineration process causes the stannic tin to convert to tin oxide - the tin oxide can then be simply dissolved away with HCl - which then allows you to dissolve your foils with AR or HCl/bleach
> 
> You can read more about dealing with stannic tin here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Metastannic Acid Experiment
> 
> 
> I have been doing some low grade pins in HNO3(nitric), as we know it creates Metastannic Acid and it is hard to get the gold foils. I have found an easy way to rid the Metastannic and its works for me. Here is the process i used today along with pics, The steps are as follows, Put the gold...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goldrefiningforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as well you can do a search of other things I have posted about stannic tin using stannic tin as search words & my user name as I have posted much about dealing with stannic tin over the years
> 
> In other words - the rest of your post (& the B.S. about hydroxyquinones) is just that - *pure* *B.S.*
> 
> Therefore I will not even comment on the rest of your post - for there is a simple - long proven method for dealing with stannic tin - if/when created
> 
> Kurt


Well, there are gold-plated aluminum brass contact pins. In fact, they're still used today for AMP connectors. They aren't used for typical computer pins, but they do exist and people who get lots of AV equipment will end up with a lot of them. They tend to be very thick, so they're easy to identify. They were also used in some pin arrays from old electronics, and those are always embedded in hard plastic because the Al-brass is so soft. 

And be careful of the 'pure' copper core pins. They may actually be BERYLLIUM copper, and beryllium ion is exceedingly toxic. It is a tiny, highly charged cation which displaces magnesium in many crucial enzyme reaction centers, interferes in DNA synthesis, as well as triggering a life-threatening hyper-immune syndrome called 'chronic beryllium disease' and 'berylliosis'. The body has no means to easily eliminate beryllium from itself, so it lingers far longer than even most heavy metals. 

I would also urge you to look up the MANY scientific articles regarding the use of hydroquinones to create nanogold particles. I repeat: THIS WAS A PROTOCOL WE USED IN MY BIOLOGY LABORATORY to make nanogold for the DNA 'bullet' method of gene insertion. It is well-established and papers exist in Pubmed from the NIH laboratories detailing its methodology and applications. The formation of gold nanoparticles using hydroquinone as a reducing agent through a localized pH change upon addition of NaOH to a solution of HAuCl4

Note at the bottom of the article abstract that benzoquinone, the oxidation product, prevents aggregation of the nanoparticles. However, if a method as added to break down the benzoquinone, the particles WILL aggregate and fall out of solution. If the solution is dried, its a mix of gold, salt, and organic molecules. Thus, burning the organics away and washing away the salt will leave fine gold dust.

It's not usually recommended for typical gold recovery, because commerically-available hydroquinone is far more expensive than any other reagent. However, if you find a source of it, it's VERY efficient if the protocol is followed explicitly, and was used commercially for a time to recover gold from electronics manufacturing waste streams of metals dissolved in mixed acetone and HCl, since the hydroquinone reaction was not affected by the presence of acetone.


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## orvi

Yes, copper is very weak for general use in manufacture of pins. I never heard of the beryllium copper alloys used for pins (but could be the case in some old stuff, who knows) - much more frequently it is used as spring material in relay contact as holding metal "fingers/springs". As kurtak said, I mostly found the pins to be some sort of bronze (XRF mostly close to 90/10 CuSn), and these were difficult to process by classic AR procedure. I sticked with I2/KI method on them, despite some small loss of value due to reprecipitation. But from the first time, I learned, that you could very efficiently "sand off" the reprecipitated gold from the deplated pins with handful of coarser sand in tumbler for couple of minutes  Getting close to 98% recovery of gold, compared to more painful AR. I cannot afford straight nitric leaching due to nitric "inaccessability" in larger quantity. So I improvised this approach. KI is not an issue for me to get and recycle. Processing is very quick following this route.

I was aware of hydroquinone use, because of small particle/nanogold formation. And also because I known very well about benzoquinone irritating properties  nasty lachrymatory stuff. If you are doing the thing in a hood, you should be OK, but I must warn that benzoquinone penetrates gloves. Not very quickly, but it does. And it sublimes very easily, filling the room with unbearable irritating itchy vapors. If you do not pay attention, you will be crying uncontrollably (a lot) if you let that benzoquinone saturated aceton somewhere on the bench 

As organic chemist, I cannot see how you easily break down the benzoquinone. This won´t be a trivial task to do, I assume. Maybe some nucleophile will do the trick, but pouring more chemistry to the pot isn´t most clever way how to do recovery. Altough, somebody with easy access to old photographic chemicals stuff maybe appreciate it


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## sleepyman1

All of the copper has dissolved so I put another 8 inches of 1/2 inch copper tubbing in it. Nothing has dropped.


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## sleepyman1

All the copper dissolved again. I put another 8 inches of copper tubing in today. Nothing has dropped.


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## sleepyman1

@kurtak 

Kurt, you mentioned way back that some gold could be trapped inside the solids, the crystals. What should I be doing with those? Could I start processing those? With your instructions of course.


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## Geo

Any pins that are springy, in other words it holds pressure against the other contact point, will be phosphor bronze. Header pins, like ide pins that are straight and pointy, are just brass for comparison. There are also copper-beryllium (CuBe) pins in old electronics. CuBe is also used as spring metal that carries an electrical current. While Be has been phased out of commercial electronics, it is still used in non-sparking tools used in explosive atmospheres or other applications where sparks are prohibited. Remember, if the pin is naturally curved or bent, it holds pressure against something and will be phosphor bronze.


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## Geo

If you dissolve copper into AR, at the end of it all, you will have CuCl2. Not really suitable to use as AP because of the contamination of free oxidizer. CuCl2 will dissolve copper until the solution is saturated. If there is the slightest amount of free oxygen or oxidizer in the solution, it will continue to dissolve copper AFTER the solution is saturated with copper. Naturally the solution can't hold that much copper in solution so it expels the excess copper out of solution as CuCl1 (CuCl) which is a white powder. It looks green from the color of the solution but is actually white. It's a heavy, white solid that settles relatively quickly. To test if white solids are indeed CuCl, place a sample in the small container and add fresh HCl to it. If it dissolves into green solution, it was CuCl. Any solids that are not dissolved in fresh HCl will be something else. Metastannic acid (hydrated tin oxide) will not dissolve in fresh HCl to any noticeable extent. It also will not dissolve in water. It is reasonably easy to deal will after you have to a few times.


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## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> All the copper dissolved again. I put another 8 inches of copper tubing in today. Nothing has dropped.


If you are still dissolving copper then the cementing process is not done

Also - are doing the stannous testing as I asked

if you are you did not post the results as I asked 

As a reminder here is what I asked



kurtak said:


> Opps - we need to back up just a bit from my first post today in which I said to continue with the cementing process
> 
> BUT - first you should do a stannous test - just like the one where I had you put two drops of the solution on paper - then put a drop of stannous on just one of the drops of the solution
> 
> If you get the same kind of result then where you get purple/black with the stannous - then continue with the cementing process
> 
> Clearly based on the pics you posted of the copper there is/was gold in solution
> 
> the whole purpose of stannous testing is to "first" see if gold is in solution - & then further test to see if/when all the gold has been dropped/recovered from solution
> 
> So you test until you get no more positive result
> 
> Kurt


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## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> @kurtak
> 
> Kurt, you mentioned way back that some gold could be trapped inside the solids, the crystals. What should I be doing with those? Could I start processing those? With your instructions of course.


Sorry but it has been a VERY LONG time since we last discussed the solids - so I will have to go back & review what was discussed 

I don't have time to do that right now but will do my best to do so

In the mean time - Do the stannous test & post the results like I asked - AND - if you get the same result from the stannous test that you got the first time I had you do it --- continue with the cementing until it stops dissolving the copper

Kurt


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## Martijn

To help Kurt out, maybe this thread should be copied in to one without all the sidetracks to stay focussed and keep it manageable. 
This is turning into a monster for Kurt. 
And way to confusing for sleepyman imo.


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## sleepyman1

Sorry for the late reply. The copper stopped dissolving. The solution is as black as used motor oil. I drained off the solution to take a look at the bottom. There was a tiny amount of blackish powder at the bottom. About as much as an aspirin. The ph is at about 4. The stannous test looks hopeless. Should I decrease the solution back down to 1 or 2 ph and keep going? Or call it a loss and move on?

The left sample is before adding the stannous. The stannous was freshly made.


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## sleepyman1

Martijn said:


> To help Kurt out, maybe this thread should be copied in to one without all the sidetracks to stay focussed and keep it manageable.
> This is turning into a monster for Kurt.
> And way to confusing for sleepyman imo.




I agree!


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## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> The copper stopped dissolving.


Ok - we are done with the cementing process *on this solution *
(stannous test shows no gold)


sleepyman1 said:


> There was a tiny amount of blackish powder at the bottom. About as much as an aspirin.


That may (or not) be "some" of your gold so hang on to it - we will come back to it later



sleepyman1 said:


> The solution is as black as used motor oil. I drained off the solution to take a look at the bottom


color doesn't matter - just set it off to the side & let it sit for the next couple weeks - there maybe ultrafine solids (including "maybe" gold) that will take "time" to settle out - so we will come back to it later

Also - back on Feb. 20 on page 5 you posted the following post (that I am quoting here) with two pics of the copper you were using for cementing



sleepyman1 said:


> Is this what cementing is supposed to look like? This only after about 2 hours of letting the copper sit in the solution with heat.


In those pics - near the top of the copper bar - there is what appears to be gold on that copper (the light brown tan)

*what did you do with that copper ? *

Now then - we can start looking at the solids left over from the original solutions

It has been quite awhile since we last talked about them - so you will have to give me some time to go back & look at what was posted about them --- likely wont get to that until this weekend

Kurt


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## sleepyman1

kurtak said:


> In those pics - near the top of the copper bar - there is what appears to be gold on that copper (the light brown tan)
> 
> *what did you do with that copper ? *


I used all of it in the solution. That was the first piece I used.


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## sleepyman1

My god sorry for being gone for so long. Life gets in the way sometimes.

OK. Kurt I let things settle just like you said. I checked often until nothing settled anymore in the solution.
I dissolved the SMB crystals. Lowered the ph to 2, added copper and almost nothing settled.
I gathered the sediments, washed, dried and threw in the crucible.

FINALLY 22 grams!

The greenish stuff if from my crucible. I need to get a new one and then smelt again.

Thanks to everyone who helped. A HUGE thanks to Kurt! 

It will be a long time before I can collect anymore fingers but, I've learned so much that the next time should go much more smoothly.


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## kurtak

sleepyman1 said:


> FINALLY 22 grams!


AWSOME !!! 

Glad I was able to help 

Most important - we were able to get your gold back from a very difficult mess created (no fault of yours) by the bad, incomplete, & mis-information floating around out there on the internet & YouTube videos that cause these kind of problems in the first place

Your not the first to come here with such a problem & I am sure you won't be the last 

But that why we are here 



sleepyman1 said:


> I've learned so much that the next time should go much more smoothly.




In as much as it's good to see you got your gold back - what you learned in going through all of this is where the real value is 

*Thanks for posting your results !!!* 

Kurt


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## swaminair

kurtak said:


> That is so absolutely wrong it is in fact false information
> 
> Depending on the fingers - (ram fingers - fingers from cards - or a mix) you should get a bare minimum of a gram per pound & more then likely between 1.5 to 2 grams & that is from modern day fingers
> 
> *Older* fingers can even run as high as 3 - 5 grams per pound
> 
> If all you got was less then a gram from 10 pounds of fingers - you did something VERY wrong & you lost MOST of your gold
> 
> 
> 
> Again - absolutely wrong - from modern day fingers you should get "at least" 1 gram per pound if not 1.5 grams per pound
> 
> If all you are getting is 1 - 1.5 grams per 10 pounds you are doing something VERY wrong & loosing MOST of your gold
> 
> Concerning the older stuff (fingers) it is not uncommon to see them run as high as 2.5 - 3 grams per pound & I have even seen (though less common) some stuff (fingers) run as high as 5 grams per pound
> 
> Same thing with old pins - they can & will run 3 - 5 grams per pound - I have seen old pins plated so heavy that the acid has a hard time getting to the base metal to dissolve the base metal away - in fact the plating can be so thick - that once the base metal is dissolved away - the gold foils will hold their shape & look just like the pins before the base metals are dissolved away
> 
> As an "experienced" refiner - running LARGE batches of fingers & pins - for 10 years - as a living --- I will gladly buy ALL of your fingers & pins (provided the pins are fully plated) based on the numbers you are providing
> 
> In other words - based on 1 - 1.5 *grams per 10 pounds* - I will pay (gladly) the high end of 1.5 grams *per 10 pounds*
> 
> Kurt


Thank you mate for the best clarification and information.
Great souls.
regards
swami nair


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## dasfasf

Alondro said:


> Nah, I've just researched the heck out of various possible gold deposits and natural mechanisms of reducing gold in situ. When you actually get out into the field and look at the vast area of rocks and trees... it all becomes overwheming! It's simply a cool this to look for if you find a vein that look promising, especially if there are sulfides. Scrap some material around any oak roots (or black walnut) piercing the rock, especially if there's a lot of organic-looking brown staining from them, it might tell you something useful.
> 
> You can use black walnut husks and shells as a source of hydroquinones too. There are some protocols for the extraction. BUYING hydroquinones are expensive, and the high purity of lab-grade isn't necessary for this sort of method.
> 
> This autumn when there are lots of black walnuts, I may try the entire protocol from start to finish and see how it works on a modestly dilute gold solution to recover organic-gold complexes as the red-brown goo.


Hi Alondro
can you give me a reference or hydroquinone protocol of walnut or reference? 
tanx


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## Alondro

dasfasf said:


> Hi Alondro
> can you give me a reference or hydroquinone protocol of walnut or reference?
> tanx


Having a hard time finding that old article. Most of the references for reducing gold with hydroquinone are newer and regard using quinones to make nanogold suspensions for biological applications.

This new process for cleaning gold out of e-waste uses hydroquinone as the final step in the recovery to reduce the gold, and then the paper describes the recovery of the gold nanoparticles. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0957582022008680

The paper has references which describe the hydroquinone process. From the abstract: "Hydroquinone (C6H4(OH)2) has been used as an agent to reduce the oxidation number of metal cations (metal-ion salt solution) to form metal nanoparticles in the presence of metal seeds (Perrault and Chan, 2009). It has also been employed in the reduction reaction (Au+,3+→ Au0) of a gold-salt solution to form gold nanoparticles (AuNPs) (Malel and Mandler, 2008). In the presence of hydroquinone and NaOH, but without metal seeds, AuNPs rapidly form under acidic conditions (Sirajuddin et al., 2010). HAuCl4 solution was firstly mixed with hydroquinone, and then NaOH was added to this mixture to change the pH, resulting in the formation of AuNPs. The addition of NaOH to the mixture has been proved to be able to improve the ability of hydroquinone to reduce the oxidation number of gold ions to form a gold nucleation center, resulting in the formation of 20-nm-diameter AuNPs (Sirajuddin et al., 2010)."


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## dasfasf

Alondro said:


> Having a hard time finding that old article. Most of the references for reducing gold with hydroquinone are newer and regard using quinones to make nanogold suspensions for biological applications.
> 
> This new process for cleaning gold out of e-waste uses hydroquinone as the final step in the recovery to reduce the gold, and then the paper describes the recovery of the gold nanoparticles. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0957582022008680
> 
> The paper has references which describe the hydroquinone process. From the abstract: "Hydroquinone (C6H4(OH)2) has been used as an agent to reduce the oxidation number of metal cations (metal-ion salt solution) to form metal nanoparticles in the presence of metal seeds (Perrault and Chan, 2009). It has also been employed in the reduction reaction (Au+,3+→ Au0) of a gold-salt solution to form gold nanoparticles (AuNPs) (Malel and Mandler, 2008). In the presence of hydroquinone and NaOH, but without metal seeds, AuNPs rapidly form under acidic conditions (Sirajuddin et al., 2010). HAuCl4 solution was firstly mixed with hydroquinone, and then NaOH was added to this mixture to change the pH, resulting in the formation of AuNPs. The addition of NaOH to the mixture has been proved to be able to improve the ability of hydroquinone to reduce the oxidation number of gold ions to form a gold nucleation center, resulting in the formation of 20-nm-diameter AuNPs (Sirajuddin et al., 2010)."


Thank you Alondro, but I meant the walnut protocol


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## Alondro

dasfasf said:


> Thank you Alondro, but I meant the walnut protocol


It might be found here! Hydroquinone

I also found this protocol: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ction_of_anthraquinone_from_walnut_green_husk

Anthraquinone can then be converted to hydroxyquinone via various processes, including electrochemistry which is explained in this paper that is so complex it makes my head hurt: Electrochemical Reduction of Quinones in Different Media: A Review


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## dasfasf

Alondro said:


> It might be found here! Hydroquinone
> 
> I also found this protocol: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ction_of_anthraquinone_from_walnut_green_husk
> 
> Anthraquinone can then be converted to hydroxyquinone via various processes, including electrochemistry which is explained in this paper that is so complex it makes my head hurt: Electrochemical Reduction of Quinones in Different Media: A Review


Very Good Alondro


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