# precipitating gold



## Nighthawk (Jun 27, 2011)

Hello,

Was wondering if anyone can help me, I desolved computer parts (about 2 1/2 lbs) everything seemed fine, parts where desolved in a solution of aqua regia. Once complete I ended up with about 1 litre of black liquid. I incorporated about 50 grams of Sodium bisulfite to precipitate it but nothing seemed to hqappen, I was expecting powder to form in the bottom, but did not see anything, I have stored it overnight to rule out a time delay, will find out tomorow but I was under the assuuption that it would be very quick? 

any help would be appreciated..

thanks


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## Harold_V (Jun 27, 2011)

The circumstances you have developed are, in part, the result of following instructions you should have never read. Certainly, you didn't get the information from this forum, did you?

Until you understand what's wrong with the procedure you have chosen to pursue, not much good is going to come from your experience. What I suggest you do is stop where you are and start reading Hoke's book, so you'll have a basic understanding of the importance of eliminating base metals. Right now, you may not have anything of value in solution. I read no reference to testing with stannous chloride----so you may or may not have anything--even if you started with values. 

One of the readers may wish to hold your hand while you recover the assumed values, but until you know where they are, that may be a tall order. 

I'm not trying to give you a bad time, so don't assume that's the case. I'm simply trying to point you in a direction that will teach you the things you need to know to be successful in refining. 

If you do not have a copy of Hoke's book, do a search for Palladium. He has the link in his sig line. Read the book until you understand what it teaches you-----and don't try anything in the way of refining until you have stannous chloride. Without a means to test, you have no idea what you have.

Harold


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## patnor1011 (Jun 27, 2011)

2 1/2 lbs of what exactly?


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## Nighthawk (Jun 27, 2011)

No I did not read the info on this site, cause I did not realy find any explanation on the process here, (maybe I just missed it ) but did get it from many different ones, and they seemed to have roughly the same explanation ?? 


21/2 lbs of conector pins, RAM foils, CPU etc,


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## goldenchild (Jun 27, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> No I did not read the info on this site, cause I did not really find any explanation on the process here



I don't think you looked hard enough then. Maybe not at all. This topic has been gone over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..... and over again. So you can see why some have disinterest in replying to your question(s)

Here are a few threads you may find some answers in. It took me about 2 minutes to find them using the forums search box. It generated 102 pages of results. Notice how they all begin. I bet there are about 100 more threads like these.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=10364&p=99992&hilit=aqua+regia#p99992

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=10191&p=98287&hilit=aqua+regia#p98287

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=10176&p=98188&hilit=aqua+regia#p98188

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10137&p=97753&hilit=aqua+regia#p97753

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=9778&p=94098&hilit=aqua+regia#p94098

Please read Hoke.


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## Harold_V (Jun 27, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> No I did not read the info on this site, cause I did not realy find any explanation on the process here, (maybe I just missed it ) but did get it from many different ones, and they seemed to have roughly the same explanation ??


Yes---other sites-----with contributions from people that don't have a clue, and likely never will. 
These people have taken a page from a system that is known to work, and ignored everything that goes with that page that makes it work as it should. Until you understand the ramifications of ignoring the full system, you'll struggle and wonder what went wrong. 

Be enlightened. Read Hoke. 

Harold


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## Nighthawk (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for the info, I got a copy of the book, I will see where I went wrong,..

Frank


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## Harold_V (Jun 28, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> Thanks for the info, I got a copy of the book, I will see where I went wrong,..
> 
> Frank


I could give you instructions, as could others, but what you'll learn from reading Hoke is going to apply across the board, helping you in almost all instances. That's the reason I'm directing you there. It's the most help anyone can offer you aside form coming to live with you and showing you each and every thing in person. 

I wish you well! I really do! 

Harold


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## Nighthawk (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks harold,

So many things to look at...been reading the book, and from the looks of it, I was not too far off the mark, but still a peice away, From what I got so far is that I should have maybe soaked my material in Nitric acid to remove some of the base materials first, but it also states that some of the lower grade gold could be "flaked" off, and since I am dealing with mostly plated electronic parts around 10K most of the gold would need to be sorted out from the sludge ? is this a corect deduction? and can I skip this process? With the gold prices being what it is, I am determined to make this work, but one thing that I found is that the products are very expensive. I live in Canada and nitric acid is not easally accesible and restricted(anything above 67% concentrate is restricted to Labs, schools, or companys that have legitimate use for it) , i was lucky to be able to get some from Fisher Labs at a 50% concentrate but it cost me 140$ for 1 Litre!! does anyone have info on getting this product at a more reasonable price?


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## nickvc (Jun 29, 2011)

Gulp $140 a litre.....
I know that nitric is hard to come by and expensive across the pond but that's extortionate!

I won't tell you what I pay as it will make you sick but try using the search function and look up how some members have made their own using sulphuric and various nitrates.
You should be able to produce an acceptable nitric acid and one hell of a lot cheaper.


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## Nighthawk (Jun 29, 2011)

Yea I know, well the container was 66$, what was the killer was all the other charges , shipping fees, minimum order surcharge, extra fuel charge, etc etc etc ... extra fees never stop adding


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## patnor1011 (Jun 29, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> Thanks harold,
> 
> So many things to look at...been reading the book, and from the looks of it, I was not too far off the mark, but still a peice away, From what I got so far is that I should have maybe soaked my material in Nitric acid to remove some of the base materials first, but it also states that some of the lower grade gold could be "flaked" off, and since I am dealing with mostly plated electronic parts around 10K most of the gold would need to be sorted out from the sludge ? is this a corect deduction? and can I skip this process? With the gold prices being what it is, I am determined to make this work, but one thing that I found is that the products are very expensive. I live in Canada and nitric acid is not easally accesible and restricted(anything above 67% concentrate is restricted to Labs, schools, or companys that have legitimate use for it) , i was lucky to be able to get some from Fisher Labs at a 50% concentrate but it cost me 140$ for 1 Litre!! does anyone have info on getting this product at a more reasonable price?



Electronics are never plated with 10k or 14k.... From what I know it is pure gold. When you dissolve base metals in nitric that sludge is where your gold is. That is why you decant and filter spent nitric. If you will pay for nitric what you pay right now, you are going to spend more money than you get gold from refining pins.


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## Harold_V (Jun 29, 2011)

As you've been advised, when you eliminate base metals with nitric, the values are in the material you reference as sludge. That's the whole idea. Once you have eliminated the base metals, you can then process the greatly reduced in volume materials by various methods---depending on what they are. Incineration is often a good ploy--as is a digest in HCl (after incineration), before dissolving the values. All of this will make more sense when you understand how to refine, which is why you should read Hoke. Once you understand, you'll notice that most of the processes are very similar. 

Mean time, I think you need to read the forum, doing research on alternate methods for dealing with base metals. You have other options beyond paying astronomical prices for nitric. They're all on the forum---including stripping with a sulfuric cell, and the acid peroxide process. No one way is perfect---each of them have definite advantages, so try to study each method, and become familiar with its application. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 29, 2011)

Except in very rare situations, plated gold on electronics is a minimum of 99% pure and is usually higher.


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## Nighthawk (Jun 29, 2011)

Ahhh ok, the bath of Nitric acid before desolving the gold in Aqua Regia makes more sence now, 

thanks

frank


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## Nighthawk (Jun 29, 2011)

Ok,

I'm starting to see the errors of my ways in starting the whole process, but I can't find how to correct my initial problem, as I posted in my first post, I screwed up, i desolved everything in Aqua Regia and now I know I should not have, but what do I do with the 1 litre of liquid that I do have now, obviously I did not nutralize my Nitric acid before adding Sodium Metabisulphite, I get that, I did not desolve the tin, or other metals with nitric acid before desolving the gold, got that. future reference that I need to incorporate in my next attempt, but my question is, what do I do with that 1 litre to recover the gold that I desolved? there is a lot of info in Hocks book, maybe I am just missing the solution, does anyone have a answer, obviously there is gold in there, it did not evaporate ,and i know to test it with stannous chloride, but how do I get the gold out at this point of my screw up ?


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## qst42know (Jun 29, 2011)

What are the stannous test results?


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## Nighthawk (Jun 29, 2011)

I did not do a stannous chloride test yet, need to find the product and learn how to use it.... baby steps people..baby steps lol I don't pretebd to know ll yet


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## qst42know (Jun 29, 2011)

That _*is*_ the first step.


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## Nighthawk (Jun 29, 2011)

no offence, but even if I do a stannous chloride test, that will tell me if there is gold left in the solution, obviously there is gold it was deluted in that solution , once I do the test I am still left with the inicial problem, what do I do with that solution that I have...of course the test will come back possitive, the gold did not dissapear, I have to figure out what to do with it...i understand the idea behind the test, but after the 2 minute test, then what, ??


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## jimdoc (Jun 29, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> no offence, but even if I do a stannous chloride test


Can't be bothered with a two minute test?
Your success depends on it!

If you don't learn how to use stannous, you are setting yourself up for lots of problems by having to guess where your gold is. Dissolving everything in AR could very well precipitate all your gold, or a good portion of it, with the base metals. Don't dispose of anything until you know what it is.
Putting everything on hold until you get stannous and know how to use it would be a smart idea.

Jim


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## qst42know (Jun 29, 2011)

> of course the test will come back possitive,



That has yet to be determined. 

There is a difference between reading for understanding and skimming for buzz words. 

Your exact problem has been answered countless times perhaps you didn't skim deep enough.


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## Harold_V (Jun 30, 2011)

Put your project on hold until you understand the basics of refining. That was my purpose in advising you to read Hoke. No one can tell you where your gold is---although I expect it's not just in one place. It is for that reason you need stannous chloride----and a better understanding of why you shouldn't dissolve values along with base metals. 

We try to encourage readers to follow prescribed processes----for many reasons. One of the most important reasons is because they work---they are predictable. Right now it's important that you reprogram your thoughts. If you are intent on staying the course, it's highly unlikely you'll get much help here. Please do as you've been advised. When you finally understand what we're trying to tell you, you'll be pleased you did. 

Harold


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## texan (Jun 30, 2011)

nighthawk...

You would do well to spend some time learning the accumulated knowledge on this forum before you make any atempts at pm recovery...and I say recovery because you are nowhere near the refining stage yet. I would suggest you work with the AP or acid/peroxide method as a learning tool before you graduate to using nitric. I have been learning recovery with AP for 18 months or so and have not yet purchased any nitric. 

Texan


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## patnor1011 (Jun 30, 2011)

Can you break down what you dissolved? Like what was weight and type of pins, weight of fingers, how many CPU and what type? That may indicate how much of gold you can expect from your failed batch. I thing that 50grams of SMB was way too much to use for start.


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## glondor (Jun 30, 2011)

Night hawk. Your assumptions about the Stannous test are incorrect. Your gold may have cemented out of solution on to the base metals and is now at the bottom of your jar in an elemental form. This is why the ability to test is very important. There are many threads here on making the Stannous solution. It is very easy and takes literally 2 minutes to prepare. 

Keep all your materials and search through some threads here for all your answers. Cheers and good luck.


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## Nighthawk (Jun 30, 2011)

patnor1011 said:


> Can you break down what you dissolved? Like what was weight and type of pins, weight of fingers, how many CPU and what type? That may indicate how much of gold you can expect from your failed batch. I thing that 50grams of SMB was way too much to use for start.




All the parts where from computer parts, PINS from motherboard conectors CD/DVD , Floppy drive, Hard Drives etc (about 120 grams) foils from NIC cards, Video Cards (230 grams) 600 grams of Ram and about 8 CPUs a bit older models, 486's Pentium 3 's a few Socket A ... in total it was about 2.5 - 3 lbs...not a whole lot but something to start on a first batch...


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## Nighthawk (Jun 30, 2011)

Thanks glondor, did not consider that option, and hope that is not the case ...the making of it is the easy part, finding the products to make it is sometimes 90% of the battle


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## dtectr (Jun 30, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> Thanks glondor, did not consider that option, and hope that is not the case ...the making of it is the easy part, finding the products to make it is sometimes 90% of the battle


Not wanting to get off the couch is often 100% of the battle, amigo 8) 

We wish you success, we really do, but if you can't take the time to learn the most basic science of this field, *you will wind up with three things -*
1.) Broke (because you won't recover any gold), 
2.) Blind (because you didn't understand what you were doing & got horribly disfigured by hot & super corrosive chemicals) and finally,
3.) In prison (for many things: *A.* Creation of & failure to dispose properly of of hazardous waste *B.* Involuntary manslaughter, for killing someone else because you didn't know how to properly handle the processes that horribly disfigured you.  

I do not mean to sound cocky or unsympathetic, nor do I have the authority to issue warnings as the moderators (who have been very patient with you, thus far, by the way) do, but please take my advice, one budding hobbyist to another - Begin following the directions given here or I suspect that you will be frozen out by board members.

So, go to lazersteve's signature line & follow the Forum Rough Guide, print off your online copy of Hoke (it will get your butt out of the chair  :lol: ) & begin learning. It is an exciting journey - I've only been here a little over a year & I'm just scratching the surface!

I would say "Good luck", but as Barren's signature line says, luck usually has very little to do with success.

I will say "hang in there" & "I wish you success!"


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## patnor1011 (Jun 30, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> > Can you break down what you dissolved? Like what was weight and type of pins, weight of fingers, how many CPU and what type? That may indicate how much of gold you can expect from your failed batch. I thing that 50grams of SMB was way too much to use for start.
> ...



Video Cards (230 grams) 600 grams of Ram - you mean whole video cards and whole RAM sticks?


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## Nighthawk (Jun 30, 2011)

patnor1011 said:


> Nighthawk said:
> 
> 
> > patnor1011 said:
> ...





No, I cut off the gold plated ends, trying to keep as much scrap out ...there where a few complete RAM stick because the real old ones had some on the body, but like I said I tried to keep it as clean as possible.


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## patnor1011 (Jun 30, 2011)

You do not need to worry then. You look at 2 to 5 grams of gold in your solution. I would say close to lower half of this estimate +- 3 grams. You don't really need to rush to sort out this, you will be able to recover that later. Try not to mix material together as that only complicate things. Do every type of material separately when you accumulate more material and gain more knowledge.


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## Nighthawk (Jun 30, 2011)

patnor1011 said:


> You do not need to worry then. You look at 2 to 5 grams of gold in your solution. I would say close to lower half of this estimate +- 3 grams. You don't really need to rush to sort out this, you will be able to recover that later. Try not to mix material together as that only complicate things. Do every type of material separately when you accumulate more material and gain more knowledge.





well that is good to hear, Apreciate the info, tips, and knowledge shared....do you know what the yeild of gold is per lbs of pins,? the reason I ask is that I have seen some people selling them and was wondering if it is worth just bying them to process instead of me doing the work finding them and cutting them off?


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## glondor (Jun 30, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> > You do not need to worry then. You look at 2 to 5 grams of gold in your solution. I would say close to lower half of this estimate +- 3 grams. You don't really need to rush to sort out this, you will be able to recover that later. Try not to mix material together as that only complicate things. Do every type of material separately when you accumulate more material and gain more knowledge.
> ...




This question is like asking how much is a new car. There are pins and then there are PINS and everything in between. I.E Gold on tip, flash plate 1 side, 2 side, whole pin outside, whole pin, small medium large and so on and so on....

This is where experience, good notes and the ability to ferret out info from previous posts is a must. There are pins worth $2 dollars a pound and pins worth $ 150 a pound or more. 

An easy and quantifiable place to start is with fingers from memory. Values are known, can be done with out nitric, you never loose site of the gold and can give you a nice button. (my first button from fingers was 18 grams). It was from 135 pounds of memory mind you. 

All the info you need is here. You just have to be determined to find it. Cheers!

(addition to post) One way to determine pin values is to research a certain type, say like a particular Amp connector or average pins from motherboards or which ever type strikes your fancy. Determine the values per pound via reading the forum and making a sound judgement, questions may be entertained on a particular type of pin and the info you receive may be helpful although there are no guarantees. Much of the info is hard won by members and for business reasons can not be shared lightly, but you can be assured no one will steer you wrong. Take the info and insite and then only buy the type you know about. Make notes.


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## Nighthawk (Jul 3, 2011)

Ok, guys, I think I'm almost ready to nutralize the nitric acid, and recover the cold out of my solution (I said Almost) still need to test it, I read Hokes eplanation over and over and over lol one thing that I did not see is my exact problem, as you might have read from previous post, I added sodium Besulfitr before nutralizing, in Hokes book, she mentiones using sulfuric Acid to nutralize the Acid, wow, not sure I want to use that stuff, and not to mention availability, is there any new method that can be used ? I seen using Urea but I also seen where this adds products to your gold and not always desirable (not to mention getting that stuff also? so can I use anything oter product beside sulfuric acid to nutralize the acid that would be acceptable. I'm not trying to cut corners, just info on new acceptable methods 

thanks


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## goldenchild (Jul 3, 2011)

Search for "denox evaporate"


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## Harold_V (Jul 4, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> Ok, guys, I think I'm almost ready to nutralize the nitric acid, and recover the cold out of my solution (I said Almost) still need to test it, I read Hokes eplanation over and over and over lol one thing that I did not see is my exact problem, as you might have read from previous post, I added sodium Besulfitr before nutralizing, in Hokes book, she mentiones using sulfuric Acid to nutralize the Acid, wow, not sure I want to use that stuff, and not to mention availability, is there any new method that can be used ? I seen using Urea but I also seen where this adds products to your gold and not always desirable (not to mention getting that stuff also? so can I use anything oter product beside sulfuric acid to nutralize the acid that would be acceptable. I'm not trying to cut corners, just info on new acceptable methods
> 
> thanks


Nighthawk, nothing you're saying makes any sense. I pretty good indication that you're skimming through Hoke's book and not learning anything. At no time does Hoke suggest you use sulfuric acid to eliminate nitric acid---it is used to ensure that you don't carry lead through the operation. 

Read the damned book. Forget about recovering anything at this point in time. You're going to wear out your welcome if you keep asking questions when everything you need to know is already in your hands via Hoke's book. She keeps repeating the pertinent information over and over----you're just not paying attention. 

Harold


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## Nighthawk (Jul 4, 2011)

No I am not skimming through the book, 


in chapter 5 she does say to use it to nutralize the acid, and yes another reason is to remove lead, 

then in section 6 she mentiones using copperas to nutralize remaining acid or use the method in above section 5, with hcl boilling down etc..... so not sure why you say I make no sence, I'm quotting the book you suggested I read? but part of her process is using Sulphuric acid?? now I am confused, everyone says read it, follow it and don't take shorcuts, now you tell me no , don;t do that, I am willing to learn and do it right, but....


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## goldenchild (Jul 4, 2011)

I think you are both correct. 

"Put the aqua regia solution into a big evaporating dish. It will
contain some sediment, mostly silver chloride; this does no harm at
this point, so do not filter it yet. Now add a little sulphuric acid,
stirring all the time, and working slowly, as it might spatter. Use
about an ounce or less of the sulphuric acid to each quart of liquid.
Now boil the solution down gently, to a syrup, being careful not to
spatter. The purpose of the sulphuric acid will be explained later."

"Do not carry the evaporation far enough to form a hard crust.
One reason for the sulphuric acid is that it hastens the expulsion of the nitric acid, 
and when it is present there is less tendency for a
hard crust to be formed. The sulphuric acid also serves another purpose
to get rid of lead which is described fully in a later chapter."

But keep this in mind for whatever you are using if for.

"The beginner sometimes finds that the gold is very slow to come down.
Usually the trouble is that the liquid contains too high a concentration of
acid; that is, maybe he failed to evaporate off all his excess nitric acid;
or maybe he used too much sulphuric or hydrochloric acid in previous
steps."


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## Harold_V (Jul 5, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> No I am not skimming through the book,
> 
> 
> in chapter 5 she does say to use it to nutralize the acid, and yes another reason is to remove lead,



I stand corrected! (It's been MANY years since I cracked that book)



> then in section 6 she mentiones using copperas to nutralize remaining acid or use the method in above section 5, with hcl boilling down etc..... so not sure why you say I make no sence, I'm quotting the book you suggested I read? but part of her process is using Sulphuric acid?? now I am confused, everyone says read it, follow it and don't take shorcuts, now you tell me no , don;t do that, I am willing to learn and do it right, but....


Ok, lets take another look at the problem. First, it's very important that you not use excessive nitric. It's a royal pain to eliminate, as you likely are coming to understand. 

From my perspective, there's no way for me to know if you have a nitric problem, or not, but that's pretty much the most common mistake made by the new guy, and that included myself when I was first refining. 

I have always recommended evaporation (*NOT BOILING*) to eliminate nitric. It was a simple operation, the only real limiting factor being it is slow. To hasten the elimination of nitric, I typically added a button of pure gold to the solution being evaporated----which would consume the acid. That's a great way to go if you have the gold available. 

If you have continuing problems with this lot----it might be a good idea to cement the values on copper, then start over. Don't get discouraged---and keep reading Hoke. As you begin to understand the processes, it will all start making sense, and you'll be able to deduce the solution for your problem. 

It would be very helpful for the new guy to understand that refining isn't difficult, but if you don't understand the basics, it can be daunting. Sort of like buying a piano and scheduling your first recital when you've never played a note. 

Harold

Edit: I failed to continue my comments in regards to evaporation. When I commented on sulfuric, while I was wrong about it not helping eliminate nitric, what I wanted to say, and failed to do so, was that you add HCl to the (hot) concentrated gold chloride solution. When you've carried evaporation far enough, when you add the HCl, you see an instant evolution of brown fumes. That was what I was concentrating on when I suggested sulfuric wasn't proper. Sorry to have misspoken, but, hopefully, this will help clarify the actual process of evaporation. Note that it may require more than one iteration to eliminate all the nitric.


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## Geo (Jul 5, 2011)

i may be wrong about this, but you may have to precipitate all values and start over.not sure how much you have invested in this batch but i do understand that silver in AR is not a good thing.sounds like you may have a do over.copper should cement all values out,filter, then follow with a HCI bath to remove excess copper and tin.boil your sludge thats left in water and rinse then repeat the boiling water rinse about five more times then wash with dilute nitric to remove silver and palladium.you should have a workable material to use your AR on and may have a more favorable outcome.


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## butcher (Jul 7, 2011)

(If tin is your trouble), Inceneration to oxidize tin and HCl works wonders for tin, without it your asking for trouble with metastannic acid.

edit: some thoughts on adding sulfuric to help eliminate nitric, the only way I see this is benificial is that the sulfuric will act as a dehydrator, keeping water (behind in the pot)the water that would normally need to be evaporated before the nitric would come over, this is one of the tricks when distilling nitric acid, I do not use this method for eliminating nitric from aqua regia, so I cannot comment on how effective it would work, although a few dropps of sulfuric work very well to precipitate the lead as chloride.


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## goldenchild (Jul 8, 2011)

butcher said:


> I see this is benificial is that the sulfuric will act as a dehydrator, keeping water (behind in the pot)the water that would normally need to be evaporated before the nitric would come over, this is one of the tricks when distilling nitric acid...



What do you mean by a trick? I'm curious because I distill some of my own nitric. I'm always looking for pointers in all of our processes.


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## Geo (Jul 8, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> butcher said:
> 
> 
> > I see this is benificial is that the sulfuric will act as a dehydrator, keeping water (behind in the pot)the water that would normally need to be evaporated before the nitric would come over, this is one of the tricks when distilling nitric acid...
> ...


when making nitric acid by condensing,especially if your using muriatic acid,water will boil off first.i always test with a piece of copper as it drips to assure its acid and not water dripping out of my apparatus.


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## goldenchild (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't use water when distilling nitric. Only sodium nitrate and H2SO4. This will produce red fuming. If you want to cut your nitric to 70% during distillation, the calculated amount of water is added to the receiving vessel. I would not recommend that because if your drip rates gets too fast the receiving vessel will get very hot. Bad things can happen when glass vessels get too hot too fast. How do you use HCL to produce nitric? That will produce AR.


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## Geo (Jul 8, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> I don't use water when distilling nitric. Only sodium nitrate and H2SO4. This will produce red fuming. If you want to cut your nitric to 70% during distillation, the calculated amount of water is added to the receiving vessel. I would not recommend that because if your drip rates gets too fast the receiving vessel will get very hot. Bad things can happen when glass vessels get too hot too fast. How do you use HCL to produce nitric? That will produce AR.


i was referring to the method of dissolving copper using sodium nitrate and HCL to create nitrogen dioxide gas.its not a very good method but it will make a workable nitric acid.


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## goldenchild (Jul 10, 2011)

Ahh ok. I saw something like that on youtube. IMHO, no matter how you do it, I feel you will always get AR if HCL is in any part of the equation. Think about when you dissolve base metals in AR. There are always the red fumes and the effervescence from the HCL (lots of effervescence if the reaction is vigorous).


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## Nighthawk (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks for clearing up the Sulphuric acid question, 

As for the Stannous, from what I have read, this test will indicate you if there is gold, not the concentration of gold, is my undertanding of this correct? (since from what I read, the Acid concentration in your solution affects the color of the test strip) ? 

2- Can anyone tell me where would be the best place in Canada to find Copperas ? ? and powder Tin? 

Thanks

Nighthawk


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## butcher (Jul 10, 2011)

You are correct stannous chloride will detect very minute amounts of gold in solution, and telling you how much gold is not possible, although there may be slight shade differences for differing concentrations, and color may shift if other contaminates are in your solution of gold.

The test strips I am not sure what you’re talking about, PH percent hydrogen test strips? Chlorine test strips?

PH can be measured with a color change of an reagent (one can be made from red cabbage) the reagent can be very PH specific or can have a wide range (usually several different reagent in one solution).

Lead free solder from hard ware store is a good source of tin metal; look for 95% tin on label.
Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewter

copperas make yer own, look for how to make it on forum, maybe search for (dilute sulfuric acid and transformer laminates, using butcher as author), see lasersteve’s web site, he has a better search engine for the forum and read all you can on his web site, Heck you may see some supplies you can use from there he also has video's of many of the processes we discuss here.


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## Nighthawk (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks butcher, 

I will look that up, I'm always looking to get the product and forget to look at ways to make it from people's experience  

Sorry about the confusion, I did not want to say TEST STRIP, but should have said TEST RESULT..

Nighthawk


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## Nighthawk (Jul 14, 2011)

Another question for the experts.... in Hokes book, she seems to only refear to Copperas , and was wondering if Sodium bisulfite is a acceptable way to precipitate, I realize that the book is quite old and might not have been a option then, I seen reference to this in older post, but did not find anyone realy admitting that it is just as good as green Copperas, (assuming I did not miss any post that is) ... I ask because it does not seem to be something easy to find (well eccept in a 50 lbs bag anyways) and Sodium bisulfite can be easely found at any local wine making shop. I realize I can make it, but finding the supplies for that is also a little treck, and wanted your opinion. Alos, if this is a acceptable product, do I need to mix it with water as axplained with Copperas, and if so, what would be the ratio? 

thanks

Nighthawk


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## dtectr (Jul 15, 2011)

Sodium bisulfite will work fine as a precipitant - It produces sulfur dioxide when it comes into contact with acidic solutions. That is what precipitates the gold from solution. Be very careful, do not breathe the fumes, they are quite dangerous.

I have been using Poor Man's AR lately, as Potassium nitrate is easier for me to obtain than nitric acid. If you add the potassium nitrate in increments, even though it does produce nitric acid, it only does so a little at a time. Therefore, I have had no problem with the formation of metastannic acid from the tin present, as is often the result of using nitric acid on materials made from bronze or those that contain tin, such as solder.

Search for Poor Man's AR with lazersteve as the author, using butcher's advice above.

Good luck, my friend.
dtectr


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## Nighthawk (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks dtectr..

I will definatly look into making poor man's ar once my container of nitric is done, as it was as you said very hard to obtain, although I now have a source for it, it was VERY expensive...

Will I get sulfur dioxide fumes even if i use urea to nutralize the nitric? or because there is still hcl in the solution the fumes will still be present? 

do I need to mix the bisulfite with water as I would do with copperas? 

As you might have read from my previous post, I had missed a few steps in my process, and incorporated bisulfite before I had removed the nitric, it will be interesting to see what hapens when I incorporate urea at this point...will the bisulfite still be active and precipitate, or will I need to add more bisulfite?? it should be a good learning experience ..


thanks

nighthawk


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## dtectr (Jul 15, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> Thanks dtectr..
> 
> I will definatly look into making poor man's ar once my container of nitric is done, as it was as you said very hard to obtain, although I now have a source for it, it was VERY expensive...
> 
> ...


 My friend
When I was training for wilderness survival, I received one of the wisest bits of advice that applies, in principal, to so very many areas of life. "The best way to survive a critical situation in the wild is to not get into one in the first place."

That REALLY applies to the use of nitric in AR. If you don't put in too much to begin with, you don't have to worry about getting it back again. That is easier said than done, though. Even Hoke acknowledges that we, as beginners, tend to overdo it when it comes to the addition of nitric. 

Most here would recommend NOT using urea, as it adds one more chemical variable to address. This is really only true, though, if you are going after the Platinum Group Metals (PGM), according to Gold SilverPro. If not (I don't, for now), add the urea a a prill at a time, and watch for the characteristic red fumes, accompanied by a visible reaction. Continue until the reactions/fumes cease.

Urea doesn't really neutralize the nitric acid - it converts it to Nitrous Oxide, as well as other gases. The expressions "expel the nitric" or "convert the nitric", would be more accurate, I believe. I use sulfamic acid for now, to accomplish the same thing, simply because I have some. Your solution will, therefore, still be highly acidic, which you want.

If you still have some solid metals present, you can start with adding a few ccs of HCl, watching for a reaction. If it reacts, then you likely have some free nitric. Remember, for AR to work, you need your HCl:nitric ratio to be either 4:1 or 3:1, depending on who you ask. If the formula gets out of balance either way, the reaction stalls, which doesn't necessarily mean that you have used up all your acid.

With Poor Man's AR, since you add the nitrates incrementally, about 5 cc. at a time, only a small amount of nitric is formed & is quickly consumed by the metals present. The above procedure, balancing the HCl:Nitric ratio, also applies here.

Using nitric, its important to know first how much copper or silver, weight in grams, you will be digesting. Using the formulas posted on the forum (someone made a nitric/silver spreadsheet the other day & posted it somewhere) measure out your Nitric & add a little at a time, as you do nitrates above. Some (mic, for one) have had good success in using just under the recommended amount, achieved good digestion, & didn't have free nitric to worry about in the end.

Re: the sodium bisulfite, I would check to make sure how pure it is & if there are any other agents added, insolubles. You may try dissolving a tablet in warm water, then check to see if there is any insoluble matter left in the bottom. If so, i would dissolve & filter, making as concentrated a solution as possible.

The sulfur dioxide (SO2) is formed as a reaction with the acidic solution, it is actually what causes the gold to precipitate.

Hope this helps. While i believe that what I posted here is accurate, still, I may have misstated some of the above - if so, I invite anyone to correct my errors.

Good luck & keep us posted.
dtectr


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## Nighthawk (Jul 15, 2011)

dtectr

that is a world of help, thanks so much for your post, I am not at this time looking to process platinum group metal at this time, I'm only working with gold, and possibly silver if I find that I have sufficient amount of silver chloride from my gold recovery process to continue further with it. 

I tried to use as little Nitric as I could, I messured to cover my material being processed and no more, but since I am prosessing electronic material, it can get bulky, so in total I probably used 400 ml of nitric to make 3 small batches. I forgot about the Nitrous oxide gas, there is sooo much information in Hokes book It gets overwelming, After reading the book, I decided to keep to concentrate on the chapters relating to gold and silver for now, the other precious metals will have to wait for now  baby steps ... 

thanks again

Nighthawk


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## goldenchild (Jul 15, 2011)

Another piece to the puzzle. When making poor mans AR....

If you distill your own nitric it takes 255 grams of high purity (98-99%) sodium nitrate to produce approximately 125ml of red fuming nitric. Distillation should in theory produce 100% pure nitric acid. In reality the home refiner will only be able to produce 92-96% pure nitric. Let's use 90% to be safe.

If you take your 125ml of 90% nitric and cut it with 36ml of distilled water you will now have 161ml of 70% nitric.

((90/70) * 125) - 125 

Thanks to GSP for helping me figure that one out.

Using these numbers you can now more accurately guess how much nitric acid you are putting into the HCL to prevent excess nitric additions.


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## dtectr (Jul 15, 2011)

goldenchild said:


> Another piece to the puzzle. When making poor mans AR....
> 
> If you distill your own nitric it takes 255 grams of high purity (98-99%) sodium nitrate to produce approximately 125ml of red fuming nitric. Distillation should in theory produce 100% pure nitric acid. In reality the home refiner will only be able to produce 92-96% pure nitric. Let's use 90% to be safe.
> 
> ...


Thanks - that IS helpful! I'll copy & paste it with my Poor Man's AR instructions documents.


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## Harold_V (Jul 16, 2011)

dtectr said:


> I may have misstated some of the above - if so, I invite anyone to correct my errors.


The only thing I'd suggest is that the advice about the ratio for AR isn't true. The ratio isn't critical----any amount of either constituent will create some AR, and it will do work until it has been exhausted. In order for more work to be done, the acid that is deficient can then be added to continue dissolution once again, until one of the acids is again depleted, or all of the metal has been dissolved. Said another way, one need not make AR with a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio---and, indeed, neither of them may be correct because we often work with acids that vary in concentration beyond the ideal formula. (I'm basing my comment on volumetric measurements). 

My policy has always been to use an excess of HCl, which does no harm, and is not expensive. That way you are assured of using up all of the nitric, so when action ceases, it's safe to assume that nitric is the acid that is short. The addition of a few drops will tell the tale---action picks up once again, assuming the solution is heated. 

Harold


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