# best fire arm ??



## ericrm

i will take my fire arm/hunting licence in 2 months and just for the chit chat of it, i want the opinion of member here on the best weapon there is, you choose why you think its the best.

my main concern is life time relability no repair other than cleaning. must be very accurate , and dont be capricious on amunition...
looking around for .22 i have found that Marlin 925 22LR bolt action seem to be very accurate, .22 ammo are realy cheap, but i dont find review on it life span/ reliability??

im also looking for a .12 g pump ,but dont know a thing about them 2 3/4 ,3 inch ... except that they are very versatile with intended amunition use ,bird shot,buck shot, rock salt, rubber buck shot... so it would do deffence, small game, big game....

anyway it is just to have the possibility to ask question vs google where i cant...

i have seen on youtube a squirrel hit with a 30 06 not much meat left on it...

also what would be an absolute no ? i keep on seeing add for remington 597,ex: fired it 30 time ,very good state, like new (make me feel that you buy it and try to pass it to someone else....)


----------



## jimdoc

The Ruger 10/22 is a very nice choice for the 22. Their "takedown" model is nice and convenient.
You are lucky to be in Canada, as in the US 22 ammo is very hard to find. 
For the shotgun I like Mossberg.

Jim


----------



## rickbb

Ruger is good stuff, for the 12 gauge I like Ithica, I have my dad's old deer slayer with 2 barrels. One for birds, longer and choked a bit, and one for slugs for deer, shorter and rifling for the slugs. Shorter barrel is better for defence as well.


----------



## steyr223

Ericrm hello
Only you can answer that question
Holding the firearm is 90% of the whole like or
Dislike,good or bad thing
As long as it is a reputable name than quality,accuracy, durability
are pretty close

I have had the best weapon in the word but didn't like the
Way it felt, therefore it was foreign to me I.e. not accurate

You will know when you hold the firearm.

Me SIG , H&K , I don't believe they make 22's
Jim nailed that ruger 1022
Shotgun either 18 1/⁴ barrel pistol grip( one of my favorites)
Or the spas12

I am not sure what your laws are there
Here if we hunt with a shotgun you need to have it
Chocked (plug in the loading area)to reduce the amount

Of ammo, this make it fair to the animal


----------



## ericrm

you seem to love the ruger 1022 but i keep on reading so much bad thing about it...that it is a very bad gun out of the box ... its a good thing to have more opinion is it a gun who missfire or broke often?

what would you buy for a first gun? 

do you know where i could buy a lot of ammunition to practice? dont forget that im in canada...

do some of you reload theyr own catridge?


----------



## jimdoc

You have Cabelas in Canada, I found it while looking for 22lr on line, I thought I got lucky and found some 22's until I noticed it was the Canadian site. I don't think you have any ammo shortage in Canada like down here. Not sure about your laws on purchasing.

http://www.cabelas.ca/

Jim


----------



## ericrm

thanks Jim, i will look at it


----------



## jimdoc

I plan on starting to reload soon. I just bought a Mosin Nagant 91/30 and will probably start with reloading 7.62x54R ammo for the Mosin.

I Don't know if you have a source for "surplus rifles" in Canada or not, but Mosin Nagants are a cheap and fun gun. There are tons of Youtube videos on them.

Jim


----------



## butcher

I have had a lot of 22 rifles, mostly good guns, I have a few lemons too one old aluminum iron barrel type comes to mind, many of the single shot bolt action type are great rifles remmington made some good rifles, but many different types of well known manufactures made good rifles, also much of how good a gun is is how well you take care of it as well as how well it was made.

I have a nylon 66 15 shot semi automatic 22 rifle I love that gun, very accurate light weight...

I say for an overall survival gun if I could only pick one type or caliper it would probably be a 22 rifle good for small game and if you have to you can bring down big game if done right, ammo for these are also very common the guns are normally light weight...

I have a Remington 1100 5 shot automatic 12 gauge shot gun, another gun I treasure.
I have brought a lot of small game and bird home to the dinner table with that gun as well as a few deer. form bird shot to double 00 buckshot that too make a great all around hunting and defense weapon.

For a 22 rifle you can also shot a bird shot ammo (rat shot), but I would only shoot that ammo in a bolt action or revolver type pistols.
and several single shot brake open shot guns which are also are great guns.

For bigger game I like my pre-1964 Winchester 30-30, or my carbine 1898 30-40 kraig (used in the Spanish American war before world war one).

Good guns if taken care of can last almost forever.

The real fun guns are muzzle loading rifles and pistols, these would make good survival guns heck you can make your own black powder and pour your own lead bullets. I have several rifles and pistols 50 caliber, 45 caliber 32 caliber... (even an old double barrel shot gun that still needs work).

Many times depending on the gun or manufacture of the gun, the less mechanical the more reliable, a bolt action is normally more reliable than an automatic. a revolver is more reliable than an semi automatic pistol...

Talk to some old gun dealers, they can probably help you find a gun you will be happy with and that will suit you need to provide meat for your family.


----------



## Noxx

I'd say forget about .22 for big game. I think that you're not even allowed (by law) to hunt big game with a .22 in Quebec.

I took my firearm permit a few months ago. My first purchase will be a Tikka T3 chambered in .223. I'll mainly be hunting coyotes I think and this calibre makes little to no damage to the pelt.

I you want a 'rust free' gun, buy a stainless steel barrel.


----------



## Geo

if you can own one, i would recommend the AR 15 in any configuration. they come in several types with almost limitless accessories. if you want fully auto, you can buy a "bump fire" or "slide fire" stock. its perfectly legal here in the states.


----------



## ericrm

thanks butcher very nice explanation

noxx i think we are not even alowed to hunt squirrel in quebec...have you hunted yet?


----------



## ericrm

geo you mean that gun? 
they are restricted in canada but it seem like a good addition (just in case that usa invade canada


----------



## steyr223

I agree with Geo
All around AR-15
It is one of the lighter weapons that
You can use for all of your needs

When I finished my training in the army and
I arrived at my unit they already had word that I
Talked nothing but crap about the m16 A1(fully auto AR15) 
They said I could have my choice so I chose the H&K 91
the 1rst time I had to hump 12 miles I didn't want it any more it was way to heavy

Butcher! 30-40 kraig...fun? How big are you brother :lol:


----------



## steyr223

Ericrm
Look up the AR-7 it is a 22 that breaks down so it
all fits in the stock and it floats.


----------



## AndyWilliams

steyr223 said:


> I agree with Geo
> All around AR-15
> It is one of the lighter weapons that
> You can use for all of your needs
> 
> When I finished my training in the army and
> I arrived at my unit they already had word that I
> Talked nothing but crap about the m16 A1(fully auto AR15)
> They said I could have my choice so I chose the H&K 91
> the 1rst time I had to hump 12 miles I didn't want it any more it was way to heavy
> 
> Butcher! 30-40 kraig...fun? How big are you brother :lol:



I was never assigned the M16, but I did get to go straight to the SAW!


----------



## chlaurite

Since you specifically mention a .22, and separately mention a .30-06, I will presume you mean a .22LR pistol.

In that case, it comes down to three choices. Best-of-the-best, _if_ you want a revolver, go with a S&W model 17. If you want a semi, you want the Ruger 22/45 or the Browning Buckmark. Personally, the latter feels a heck of a lot better weighted IMO, but quite a few folks prefer the former.

None of those come cheap, however - Expect the 17 to set you back a grand, the other two half that. You can pretty much count on those appreciate in value if you keep them in good shape, though, so if you need the cash back someday, you would do _worse_ to keep it in a savings account for a few years. 8)


----------



## skippy

Figure out what and how you want to shoot and do a bit of research and pick a gun at a price that matches your budget. 8) 
AR15s can't be used for hunting because they are restricted under the firearms act. Maybe you can hunt with them if you are a status Indian. 
Hunting laws may affect what gun you can hunt with - in SW Ontario you can only hunt deer with a shotgun or muzzle loader.

Get a twenty two, the 10/22 is reasonable choice. For a rifle you would be served well with a lee enfield or win 94. If you want an unrestricted semi auto with a design proven by military service there's a M14 type design produced by Norinco that have been popular, though I have no experience with them. I'm sure they would be fine for most hunting and shooting


----------



## Palladium

I would vote for the ar 15 also.
you can chamber the ar 15 for 22 cal. My 7 year old nephew practices whit an ar chambered for 22. 22 cal is easy to find here. The .223 not so easy. It amazes me the different views and laws we have in this world. Here in the south its not unusual to wake up on a sat morning and throw your ar in the front seat and head to the cert pit for a little shooting . stop by the gas station and run into somebody you know. next thing you know their are two or three people standing around with guns waving around and people just walk on by like it was nothing. try that anywhere else and people woul freak the hell out.


----------



## moose7802

If I were to recommend an all around good gun for all types of game it would be a 270 browning A bolt medallion. If you're looking for a little bit smaller caliber a 7mm.08 is a great gun very fast and accurate. Also cheap to reload. 

Tyler


----------



## bigbaud

In my humble opinion, by far the best fire arm, for various reasons, is a long barrel Mosin Nagant. Ammunition for this weapon is a 7.62x54R round. That is roughly a 3.11 round. I bought one a while back at Big5 for 126.00(US) and has been a great source of fun and entertainment. The ammunition is available in 440 round cans( Hungarian surplus ammo). For take down power, it is at the top (or very close). 
Along with all of that, and it's great accuracy, this gun has been in m ore wars than any most likely and has great historical significance. Just my opinion though. :mrgreen:


----------



## goldsilverpro

When I was a kid (age 10 +/-), I had 2 Winchester Model 62's. My dad paid $6 for the 2nd one. Now, a good one is about $1500. Best .22 I've ever fired. Light weight and accurate. Great bead front sight. Deadly on rabbits.
https://www.google.com/search?q=winchester+62&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=e46uUpn-OOrz2QXkjYG4CQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=563


----------



## steyr223

Casull 454

90% of my collection came from the stockade in
I think garden grove CA.( could be Westminster CA)
All sold for no more than $495.00 in 1981
Hk91,94,93,mp5,pd, sd, steyraug, spas12, just to name a few

Today I don't believe any of them are less than $1800.00
Upwards to $5000.00+

Dam good.investment and my mom and dad thought IRA's
Were the ticket :lol:


----------



## ericrm

for the ar15 ,it come in .223 or 5.56 (military) is one more reliable than the other? does the military type realy take more abuse ? is the military ammo cheaper/easyer to get? i have read that the .223 is more precise vs the 5.56 ,and you cannot put 5.56 in a .223 ar15 but you can put .223 in a 5.56 ar15 but the accuracy is lower ,how much lower ?

i like that some of your preferate gun as taken value over the years ,it realy show that theyr are loved and trusted

what about hand gun ? im pretty much sold on glock from what i have read and the abuse it can take... but what about you?


----------



## philddreamer

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

I have a Colt M-4 carbine with a 5.56 barrel, but a buy .223 rounds. As for prices, the 5.56 is more expensive. I buy my ammo .223 at Cabela's when its on sale, or Walmart. I buy them as low as $5.37 plus tax for a box of 20 rounds.

Take care!
Phil


----------



## mls26cwru

if you are looking into 'bigger game' with a .22 caliber, look into .22-250... you can get some pretty damn high muzzle velocities. My father has a Remington .22-250 that was always fun to shoot.

As far as shotguns... I shot competition skeet for 15+ years with a Remington 1100... it requires a more maintenance than your standard over-under, but a lot softer recoil too.

but the gun that i most enjoy shooting is the Browning White Gold Medallion (.300 magnum version)... the power behind it is astounding and people WILL sit up and take notice when you touch a round off.


----------



## ericrm

that was a realy nice review, to bad he didnt do a review accuracy for both ammo used in the "wrong ar15" ...

is the 1100 a popular choice in the shooting range?


----------



## moose7802

mls26cwru said:


> but the gun that i most enjoy shooting is the Browning White Gold Medallion (.300 magnum version)... the power behind it is astounding and people WILL sit up and take notice when you touch a round off.



Great gun, my father has 300 Weatherby Mag lazer mark IV and when I take that out to the range it gets the same response. That gun will reach out and touch someone. 

Tyler


----------



## Noxx

You can have an AR-15 with a restricted licence. Although it has to be semi-auto only and I think there is a maximum capacity on the mag.

According to wikipedia:



> The Government of Canada classifies the AR-15 (and its variants) as a restricted firearm. For anyone wanting to lawfully own an AR-15, they must obtain a Possession and Acquisition License (PAL) valid for restricted firearms (RPAL) and then each acquisition of a restricted class firearm is subject to approval by the Chief Firearms Officer (CFO) of the would-be buyer's province of residence. With the introduction of strict gun control measures by former Prime Minister Kim Campbell (Bill C-17), the AR-15 had originally been intended to be classified as a prohibited firearm, making it impossible to privately own one. However, due to the presence of nationwide Service Rifle target shooting competitions, the AR-15 was granted a sporting exception.
> 
> As with all Restricted firearms (including most pistols, some shotguns, and some rifles) AR-15s are allowed to be fired only at certified firing ranges since the CFOs of all provinces and territories have agreed to issue ATTs (Authority To Transport) for these guns only to certified ranges. Since owners can't legally take these guns anywhere else that shooting is allowed, they can in effect only shoot them on certain ranges. In order to legally own and transport a Restricted firearm, the firearm must be registered with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Canadian Firearms Program and must apply for an Authorization to Transport (or ATT) from the Chief Firearms Officer (CFO) for their province or territory. Additionally, the firearm must be unloaded, deactivated by a trigger or action lock, and be in a locked, opaque container during transport.
> The issuance of ATTs varies considerably from province to province, and is generally reflective of a particular province's political and social levels of acceptance toward gun ownership. In Ontario the only way to obtain an ATT for restricted firearms is to become a member of a range, whereas in Alberta, where firearms ownership is widely accepted, generally a single ATT is promptly issued that allows citizens to transport firearms to border crossings, gunsmiths, and shooting ranges. Firearms transfers in provinces such as Quebec can take up to 3 months to process.


----------



## Palladium

For a hand gun and not for the flashiness, but for the purpose of it has to work to save my life i would take the snub nose 38 Special double-action revolver. You can throw the thing in the water and sand it will still fire. I'm not a fan of slide action or magazine jams when it comes to life or limb!


----------



## Geo

i agree on a double action revolver being more reliable than a semi-auto, but the pull weight makes them less accurate than either a single action or a semi-auto. i have a Hi-point 9mm that i carry. it does not like steel cartridges and will jam every shot. bronze on the other hand seems to not be an issue as ive never had one jam. the Hi-point is the black sheep of the hand gun world because it it is cheap to produce and sells for $150 to $200 new. if well maintained, it is a smooth action pistol with a very low pull weight. being a 9mm, it has alot of stopping power and a wide range of ammo to pick from but as i mentioned, some ammo doesnt play well with the Hi-point 9mm.


----------



## steyr223

Agreed with the jamming thing
If you use the ammo your weapon likes
And Polish the ramp a tiny bit its not a.problem

I have norinco 9mm,Jennings 380 geo's hi point
And a 9mm hi point rifle (all Teflon fun) all the cheapest
But most worked out ...don't get the Jennings's .....

Geo.said
being a 9mm, it has alot of stopping power

I HIghly disagree
This is the reason all the law enforcement switched
To the 40 or 45
OK if I am drunk,drugged,or my favorite determined
(Called the 3 D's in c&c class)and say I have it in my head
To snap your neck before I die you can pump a clip into me
But being the 9mm wont knock me down my adrenaline is going
to get me to close for your comfort
now a 40 that would literally knock me down and having to
Actually get back up and start coming at you again just
Ain't gunna happen


----------



## steyr223

Ericrm!
I am anti glock due to who carries them and
My hand does not quit fit the frames

As I said hold the weapon before you.make up
your mind

The glock I'd an excellent weapon there is one thing that
seperates them from all other weapons

They have no hammer at least not one you can use
All other automatic side arms have 2 different pulls on the
Trigger that you will need to learn
the first is the first round you fire(unless you carry with the
Hammer cocked back..not advisable) your pull dependind on weapon
Will be about 7-10 lbs all others will be about 2-3 lbs
being after the first round the hammer is now back

The glock is a nice 5 lbs everytime (I prefer about 2 lbs
To stop the jerking)


----------



## ericrm

here is a realy nice review about stopping power myth ,it is a good read for someone like me...

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866


----------



## butcher

steyr223,
The 30 40 kraig is not that big of a gun, it just has a little more powder behind the 30 caliber chunk of lead.

https://www.google.com/search?q=30+40+krag&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Ju2vUp2-FcrwoAS9voGIBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=618

I have heard in our history the military went to smaller rounds and weapons, because they did not kill so easily, in war it was better wound the enemy, you took one man down, and others to care for him, in essence taking more out of battle.

Interesting statistics on knock down power.


----------



## steyr223

Butcher yea right!
I fired one only 30 or so times at the range
(We use to play pass the gun to your right game)
I could not move my arm, the next day my shoulder was
Black and blue

Maybe its technique as people use to not be able to
Fire my pistol grip 12ga more than 10 times without hurting
themselves where I would fire on the average a couple
Hundred rounds a day (although I have had a couple
Teeth knocked out while holding up close to my face and
Forgetting I put 3 slugs in :roll:

Eric nice knockdown review only one problem
Ask one of the big game hunters here if caliber makes a difference
Or ask anyone who is born and raised around weapons
Where the sound of a shot (and probably the psychological effect of
Knowing they were doing something wrong I.e. police shooting the perp)
Isn't going to scare them into I give up
Like I said the 3d's.
Determination like a Grizzle bear see you pop a round at him he is not
Going to stop unless you knock him down
This is only assumption on the bear thing as I have never
Shot a bear.
Hint, hint .......next


----------



## butcher

Not much doubt, a bigger bone shattering chunk of lead will knock down big game better than a small fast round passing through soft flesh.

Darn I wish I would have shot that charging bear with a larger gun, I made him pretty mad with that little flesh wound, HELP!


----------



## Anonymous

You can have automatic weapons and hand guns, but you're not allowed to buy a lot of the pure chemicals/acids to refine gold?

That's something us Brits just can't get our heads around guys.


----------



## Geo

I wonder whether the data compiled in the article above took into account for deliberate aiming and firing as apposed to blindly pointing the gun and firing. in a panic situation, i assume that unless a person had some sort training, it would be the latter. its a very hard thing to deliberately point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. i have killed animals while hunting and have performed mercy killings on animals that were suffering. it always strikes me as something very unpleasant to say the least. it always leaves me very sad for days afterward even though i knew it was for the best or i was hunting for food. i take no pleasure from killing anything. with all that being said, thats why i feel that deliberately taking a human life, even in self defense, is a very hard thing. in defense of my life and any member of my family, i would as should anyone else faced with that horrible reality. if you can, legally, its my belief that all people should arm themselves and train with the weapon of choice and have a clear cut plan should you have to fire your weapon in defense. brandishing a firearm without the mental ability to pull the trigger may cost you your life not to mention whoever else is in the situation besides your opponent.


----------



## ericrm

very well said Geo


----------



## ericrm

spaceships said:


> You can have automatic weapons and hand guns, but you're not allowed to buy a lot of the pure chemicals/acids to refine gold?
> 
> That's something us Brits just can't get our heads around guys.



i too, find it dangerous to allow poeple to own gun without any training for them, it like giving a car to someone who never learned to drive ...


----------



## AndyWilliams

spaceships said:


> You can have automatic weapons and hand guns, but you're not allowed to buy a lot of the pure chemicals/acids to refine gold?
> 
> That's something us Brits just can't get our heads around guys.


Which chemicals/acids do you mean? Mostly, they just make it expensive to ship across the country.


----------



## butcher

I grew up with guns,At 6 years old I remember sleeping in a bed that had three loaded rifles hanging in the gun rack above the bed, I also began shooting them at a very young age, ever since I can remember there was always a loaded gun around me, At a young age I would take my own gun out to help bring home food for the family table, some times hunting all day, or chasing after the coon dogs most of the night, I raised my children in the same way, they were raised with loaded guns in the house and vehicle, they too learned to shoot about as soon as they could hold a gun, at 10 years old my daughters were allowed to take a gun into the woods with them alone, and shoot them, with permission of coarse.

The only time I would unload my guns or put them away, is if other young children came to my home, children who were not raised around guns, a gun around them would be dangerous, they were not raised around guns,knew nothing about them, and did not know how to use one, and had not been taught respect for it, these are the kids who having a gun around would be dangerous.

I would be more worried about leaving some of my power tools out around my kids when they were younger, I was afraid they would hurt themselves with them, guns they knew what they would do, they knew they were not to be touched, or used unless they were allowed, and when allowed they knew how to use them and use them safely.

I have seen grown men who were more dangerous with a gun or a vehicle, than my daughters were at 8 years old, I could trust them around my guns or around my truck and know they were safe around either.
My daughters also learned to drive at a young age, learning to drive tractors and my ole trucks through mountain roads.

To me a gun is not much different then any other tool, like the kitchen knifes you have on your kitchen table, both are tools, if you have a baby it is good to put the tool away, so the baby does not get hurt, but when the child is old enough they should be taught how to respect the tool, be it a gun, a knife on the kitchen table, or sitting in a running pickup truck while dad goes off to do something, knowing it is not to be touched, until they learn how to use it properly, but they should be taught at a young age to learn to use them, and when they are older and are more responsible then they can be allowed to get the kitchen knife out and be trusted to use it as a tool, or the truck, or the gun.


----------



## ericrm

butcher, you did explain very well ,you didnt needed to learn to endle gun from someone else as an adult because your father already teached you all the respect needed for that killing tool (a gun as for fonction to kill/perforate flesh as scisor are for cutting )but im doubfull that all american did received such a nice teaching.

im glad that in canada we have a law for poeple who think that gun are cool, make you a bad ass, and are funny to put in your friend face ,and force them to take a not very long (1 day) and learn what you learned at a very young age. i bet that you woulnd have much difficulty to pass that 30 minute exam...


----------



## Palladium

Idiots with guns scare me more than just guns do. I was taught you don't put a gun in a mans face unless you are willing to pull the trigger. You pull a gun on me and don't use it i'm fixing to beat your *** because if someone before me didn't teach you i will! Guns are meant for one thing and one thing only! I feel safer with my 7 year old in the woods than i do with adults in the woods with guns. The ones who scare me most are those that go to a weekend gun course and the shooting range once a week. Want to get drunk and going hunting in the woods with their buddies because it's the cool thing to do. I think they should pass a law that if you're drunk and get caught with a firearm that you should be charged just like with DUI. Even though they think they know proper gun safety it's no different that a guy who buys a Harley and thinks he's in a motor cycle gang! I agree people have that right and i'm not complaining, but i'm dam sure not going out in the woods hunting with them either.


----------



## Smack

Just rotated the mag in my G17, don't like a weak spring.


----------



## ericrm

Smack said:


> Just rotated the mag in my G17, don't like a weak spring.


you mean a glock 17? what do you mean by rotated and weak spring?


----------



## philddreamer

Another nice bolt action rifle is the Marlin 917V 17 cal. HMR. 

Phil


----------



## Smack

ericrm said:


> Smack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just rotated the mag in my G17, don't like a weak spring.
> 
> 
> 
> you mean a glock 17? what do you mean by rotated and weak spring?
Click to expand...


Yes Glock 17, don't leave the same clip in a weapon loaded for extended periods of time, have multiple clips and remove the ammo when you change clips so the spring can relax. Also not a good idea to let it sit fully loaded, load it 2 or 3 rounds short.


----------



## ericrm

ok it is good to know, thanks


----------



## ericrm

philddreamer said:


> Another nice bolt action rifle is the Marlin 917V 17 cal. HMR.
> 
> Phil


it is a very good looking gun, 

anyone has opinion on optic ?


----------



## rickbb

ericrm said:


> spaceships said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can have automatic weapons and hand guns, but you're not allowed to buy a lot of the pure chemicals/acids to refine gold?
> 
> That's something us Brits just can't get our heads around guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i too, find it dangerous to allow poeple to own gun without any training for them, it like giving a car to someone who never learned to drive ...
Click to expand...


Oh we do that too, lots of people on the road here that have only had a few days training. At least it seems that way from how they drive.


----------



## philddreamer

> anyone has opinion on optic ?


I have on mine a LEUPOLD Rifleman 2-7 x 33mm. 
I love this rifle; shoots "flat" at 100 yards and it's impressive how it blows up a plastic galon full of water at that distance. 

Phil


----------



## maynman1751

> To me a gun is not much different then any other tool, like the kitchen knifes you have on your kitchen table, both are tools, if you have a baby it is good to put the tool away, so the baby does not get hurt, but when the child is old enough they should be taught how to respect the tool, be it a gun, a knife on the kitchen table, or sitting in a running pickup truck while dad goes off to do something, knowing it is not to be touched, until they learn how to use it properly, but they should be taught at a young age to learn to use them, and when they are older and are more responsible then they can be allowed to get the kitchen knife out and be trusted to use it as a tool, or the truck, or the gun.



Richard, you are a man after my own heart! "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"!!!!!!!


----------



## maynman1751

Geo said:


> I wonder whether the data compiled in the article above took into account for deliberate aiming and firing as apposed to blindly pointing the gun and firing. .



I agree Jeff! Those figures sound off to me. You shoot somebody in the chest with a 45 and he's going to drop like a stone. It's all about sectional density when it comes to stopping power. If I poke you in the chest, as hard as I can with my finger, not much will happen, but if I hit you in the chest with my fist that's another story all together.


----------



## steyr223

> maynman1751 wrote
> 
> I agree Jeff! Those figures sound off to me. You shoot somebody in the chest with a 45 and he's going to drop like a stone. It's all about sectional density when it comes to stopping power. If I poke you in the chest, as hard as I can with my finger, not much will happen, but if I hit you in the chest with my fist that's another story all together.


Or if you poke him in the eye :lol: 
I spent about 8 months in and around Billings Montana
I bought one if the first SKS type 56 (very fun toy)
The serial was 0000069 (I forget how many zero's)
Now I know about hunting with soft tips so as to make sure
The animal doesn't escape and end up 2 miles away where he
Dies for know reason
But 
my SkS and full metal jackets and a Buck tag got the
First shot kill and the Buck didn't even take one step
before he dropped
Also got an elk the same way
the projectile entered at the front left shoulder and broke
Ribs, and tore the lungs, and more ribs ...not sure if I hit the heart.


----------



## ericrm

That bring à moral question when protecting yourself should you aim to kiĺl or hurt?


----------



## rickbb

ericrm said:


> That bring à moral question when protecting yourself should you aim to kiĺl or hurt?



Irrelevant, since one is as likely to do the other regardless of what you "aimed" to do. Just point and pull the trigger until the threat stops or you run out of rounds.

And when you run out of rounds then you can use it to bash him/her/it in the head with it.

The only thing you should aim to do is protect yourself/family.


----------



## Palladium

Not a moral issue as far as i'm concerned. It only can end two ways once it reaches that point. You or me! Not a hard decision, but you have to commit. If you don't commit and you think about the moral issue for even a second you're dead! Would i feel bad and feel sympathy for the other party? You bet i would, but that person made that decision for me based on THEIR actions. You just better make sure your justified (by law) in your actions. It's not a good feeling to take another persons life and i'm sorry to say i know that from first hand experience. It's been years and it NEVER goes away even when it's justified and everyone and everything tells that you did the right thing. Not a good feeling at all !!! But given the same circumstance again i would make the same decision or i wouldn't even be typing this reply. That's kind of twisted in a way, but the truth never less!


----------



## steyr223

Hey Eric 
I am not sure if your hunting class
Teaches you much on defence which if you
Plan on defending with a weapons and not getting arrested your Going to need

What I am talking about are instances where a weapon
is used and you find yourself in handcuffs not because
You weren't justified but you said something like! "Yes he was running
Away when I fired my weapon" (even though he just shot 6 people
Right next to you ) or "no I really didn't feel threatened"(because you
had a weapon is why you didn't feel threatened) these and many
Other statements the law will try to get you to say will ruin your day
they don't care why they just want there .case

Also I will ask you a question (anybody in fact everybody should give there
Answer after Eric gives his )

How far away from you does someone say with a knife have to
be before it is to late for you to draw your weapon to defend yourself

Say I was 10 feet from you knife in hand and your weapon still holstered could you draw your weapon and point in my direction before I cut you ? 15 feet more less? I am looking for a number
Thanks steyr223 rob


----------



## ericrm

steyr223 said:


> Hey Eric
> I am not sure if your hunting class
> Teaches you much on defence which if you
> Plan on defending with a weapons and not getting arrested your Going to need
> 
> What I am talking about are instances where a weapon
> is used and you find yourself in handcuffs not because
> You weren't justified but you said something like! "Yes he was running
> Away when I fired my weapon" (even though he just shot 6 people
> Right next to you ) or "no I really didn't feel threatened"(because you
> had a weapon is why you didn't feel threatened) these and many
> Other statements the law will try to get you to say will ruin your day
> they don't care why they just want there .case
> 
> Also I will ask you a question (anybody in fact everybody should give there
> Answer after Eric gives his )
> 
> How far away from you does someone say with a knife have to
> be before it is to late for you to draw your weapon to defend yourself
> 
> Say I was 10 feet from you knife in hand and your weapon still holstered could you draw your weapon and point in my direction before I cut you ? 15 feet more less? I am looking for a number
> Thanks steyr223 rob



i honestly dont know i have never draw a gun before ,but i was thinking 6 feet,than i realise that a 6 feet he would just run and grab my arm and cut hole in my belly... thinking i would guess 10 feet would probably be the minimum ... what is the wright answer?


----------



## butcher

I don't know the answer, I guess it would depend on how good the man was with a knife or throwing it.
I do not think I would stand there wait and find out the answer.
But I would not touch the gun or pull it, or point it, unless I was willing to kill a man, and possibly spend my life in prison, or be executed for my decision in a split second of time.


----------



## steyr223

Butcher yes100% agree 

I had carried an H&K USP compact on my side For about 9 years and every one of my friends new
That I would not remove it from the holster unless
fired upon, literally they had to take the first shot
but then that was me, I can say if one of my loved ones Was involved,I wouldn't mind jail

Don't know the statistics but I figured the first shot Wouldn't hit me anyways 

Eric yes I am sure there are many variables

I was taught 18 feet 

when my instructor said this I laughed at which time he got the rubber knife
he said when I say go pull and point with the other arm straight out to restrain the
attacker ....he hit my arm 3 times before I brought
The weapon up to shot level

Thanks steyr223 rob


----------



## Geo

this is one very real story. when i have time, i take my oldest son to go dumpster diving for scrap metal. some of the best places to find scrap metal is in the poorest neighborhoods (go figure) like housing projects and slums. my son carries a small .22 ruger and i carry a 9mm. at one particular apartment complex, a young man approached me very intently. keep in mind that this is the south and in this neighborhood, white people are considered outsiders and have no business there unless they are "buying" something. as i seen him approach, i walked back to the truck where my pistol was concealed and whistled to my son. the man stopped at the front of the truck and asked for a cigarette. i told him that i didnt smoke and he asked me if i had a dollar i could give him. i told him that i didnt carry cash. at this point he seemed to become irritated and began slowly inching closer to my side of the truck. he looked at the load of scrap on the truck and said "i know you got some money. all i want is a cigarette." at this point i took the pistol (still in the holster) and laid it on the dash in full sight. no other words were spoken. the young mans face went blank and he turned and walked away. i have no doubt that if i hadn't had my sidearm within reach, the situation would have ended differently. my son watched this from where he stood out of sight of the young man and later told me that he wasn't worried too bad about the encounter and i had to explain to him about intimidation and how it works. i explained that people use intimidation as a weapon to force someone to do something without actually using force and that its the threat of someone using force that is intimidating. from then on, he was very wary of people around him when we were running dumpsters.


----------



## steyr223

> Geo said
> keep in mind that this is the south and in this neighborhood, white people are considered outsiders and have no business there unless they are "buying" something.



OK let me get.this straight Geo
You and your son are white and you went into
An all black neighborhood :shock: to dumpster dive :shock: 

Your wacked!!
you definitely need a gun

Steyr223 rob
BTW I always give a cigarette and enough money to by
A pack but that's just me I have no family or responsibilities
To take care of like your newborn( maybe not to new but recent)
grandkids :lol:


----------



## bigbaud

I'm still voting Mosin Nagant for all around utility.
SKS makes a rifle with a 20 round drum, i believe this to be proper home protection. No aiming involved, just make sure your family are behind you, point and shoot. One, two, five people, no problem. I believe it is referred to as a "street sweeper". :lol:


----------



## maynman1751

butcher said:


> I don't know the answer, I guess it would depend on how good the man was with a knife or throwing it.
> I do not think I would stand there wait and find out the answer.
> *But I would not touch the gun or pull it, or point it, unless I was willing to kill a man, and possibly spend my life in prison, or be executed for my decision in a split second of time*.



Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!!!!!


----------



## butcher

Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!!!!!

Better to not have to do either, if it can be helped.

I have carried a gun most of my life, I have been in a few serious encounters with firearms, to protect my family.
I would pull the trigger if necessary, but that is the last thing in the world, I would want to do, to take a mans life, a son of a mother, or some child's father, can I yes, but only at the very last resort. 

I consider my gun like any other tool I have, like my kitchen knife laying on the kitchen table. I consider them mainly tools to supply food, like my kitchen knife a tool to cut meat for the table, when I look at the knife on the kitchen table, I do not think of the knife as a weapon to kill a man with, same with the gun, any of which can be used to do so. carrying a gun in my truck for me is like carrying a shovel in the truck, it is just another tool, I do not think of the shovel as a weapon, although it may make a better weapon in many cases than that gun would.

Geo may have had the same effect if he would have pick up his shovel and sit it over his shoulder as he did by sitting his pistol on the dash, where the sight of the tool in reach was enough to keep a possible situation from happening.


I also do not feel more powerful because I carry a shovel in my truck, but if I get stuck in the mud or snow I can dig my way out.

I have seen people who carry a gun , that could easily put into a more dangerous situation, then they may have otherwise, because they feel empowered carrying that gun.

I rarely have hunted with others, I would normally prefer to hunt alone, I have a few times hunted with others, and i have hunted with some men that actually made me worry, worry they might shoot me or someone else by mistake, they would shoot at anything that moved even if they could not tell for sure what it was they were shooting at, walking around saying they just wanted to kill something, and would shoot at most anything.

I do love to hunt, and provide meat for my table, I have killed a lot of game, and animals for food, or to put them out of misery, in my life, but I have never killed for pleasure, and never take killing as pleasureful, but a necessity.
The last thing I would want to kill would be another human being.

Sometimes people can be more stupid than animals, I would not want to kill someone who was just doing something stupid, if i could help it, just like animals normally you can just stand your ground and stomp your foot and scare them off from attacking you.

I never thought much of someone who hunted for trophy or sport, (this is different from someone who hunts and is sporting, I do not know if I say this how I mean to), you cannot eat horns and who cares how big the horns are on the animal you cannot eat them and the animals meat is much more likely to be tougher, many times the better meat is on the younger animal.


----------



## sharkhook

ericrm said:


> i will take my fire arm/hunting licence in 2 months and just for the chit chat of it, i want the opinion of member here on the best weapon there is, you choose why you think its the best.
> 
> my main concern is life time relability no repair other than cleaning. must be very accurate , and dont be capricious on amunition...
> looking around for .22 i have found that Marlin 925 22LR bolt action seem to be very accurate, .22 ammo are realy cheap, but i dont find review on it life span/ reliability??
> 
> im also looking for a .12 g pump ,but dont know a thing about them 2 3/4 ,3 inch ... except that they are very versatile with intended amunition use ,bird shot,buck shot, rock salt, rubber buck shot... so it would do deffence, small game, big game....
> 
> anyway it is just to have the possibility to ask question vs google where i cant...
> 
> i have seen on youtube a squirrel hit with a 30 06 not much meat left on it...
> 
> also what would be an absolute no ? i keep on seeing add for remington 597,ex: fired it 30 time ,very good state, like new (make me feel that you buy it and try to pass it to someone else....)



I didn't care for the Remington 597, around 1000 rounds and mine need some serious work. It is gone now and won't be back. 
For a 22, it is hard to beat the Ruger 10/22. Accurate, dependable, holds up very well (mine went through over 10,000 rounds before being passed down). 

For a shotgun in 12 gauge, my favorite is a pump, the Remington 870 SuperMag. It shoots everything up through the 3 1/2 inch magnums. Very smooth and dependable. Recoil with 3 1/2 inch shells is less than the Mossberg 500 or 835, both of which are good guns. You can have extra duty in a shotgun that has changeable chokes. Make sure the gun and choke system is of a newer variety, this will allow for the use of steel shot. Steel shot is fast becoming a requirement here in the U.S. 

I have been shooting and hunting for 40+ years, from varmints to big game, and if I could only have one firearm, for defense or food, it would be the .308 Winchester round. My personal favorite gun, that I own now is a Savage Model 10, in .243. I have an identical one in .308, both are capable of 5 shot, 100 yard groups that can be covered with a dime. If I could have two guns only, I would add a Marlin Model 25MN in .22 magnum. Short of something big and dangerous, such a Grizzly or Polar bear attack situation, I would feel confident with the .308 and .22 Magnum.


----------



## Noxx

Bought this yesterday 

Tikka T3 in .223 with Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5x16 43mm


----------



## ericrm

nice weapon, not that i know much of it but by the bipod on it i guess that you will be on the sniper side of shooting. 

13 day before i can own one myself ,im conting them like a child before christmas.


----------



## samuel-a

I get to meet this lady every now and then.




Not fancy, but gets the job done...


----------



## ericrm

it looklike an ar15, is it? i wont have the money for one before a looong time but i will buy one at some point. the more i read/listen the more i understand how it can do a lot of what other guns a designed to do. sniping/hunting/defense/offence... the only down side is you american swear by it when the rest of the world seem to think it is laking reliability (aparently mostly caused by dirtyness/not enuf oil). since it is the only military stile rifle i can own in canada i will hapilly take one.

still 5 day before my pal


----------



## sharkhook

The AR15's "poor" reputation is based on the early model M16. The had a habit of jamming when dirty. Simple fix, chrome lined bore. Most manufactures these days use the chrome lined bore in the Ar15 style. A few don't even today. Just because it looks like an AR15, does not mean it is. There are many manufactures that have their own version, some better, some worse. Now, that Tikka, those are nice, factory warranted to 1MOA. I have seen and owned many rifles that can't do that.


----------



## jeneje

I have read a lot of posts here about weapons and types. In early 81 and 82 while I was stationed in Central America, The most dangerous weapon I carried was a piano-wire, looped back through it-self, strung through a piece of short pipe or bamboo, with a pull handle. I want go into details how to use it but, I will say this, It is deadly and quiet.

If, we had no piano or guitar strings we would use trip wire. 
Ken


----------



## strakill

I'm joining this conversation late but I had to take a break from all the science talk here(I'm new) and sink my teeth into something that I have some sort of knowledge about..GUNS!!

To the O.P. , it seems you are new on this topic and being from Canada you might not have much experience(judging the book...) however I worked in my local gun store for 10 yrs and this is a common question to beginners. I will try to keep this as short as possible.
Start with a .22. because I am a big fan I will suggest the Ruger 10/22. Accurate and reliable, that is if you clean them. There are many different styles built depending on your needs and wants as well and if you have a problem then just send it back to Ruger (pay shipping) and they repair it for free, their warranty is the best. A marlin model 60 is another great choice but both I have suggested are semi-auto and that lends itself to issues due to fouling in the action. Savage, Marlin, Remington, Ruger, even Mossberg all make great bolt action .22's that you can trust. The accuracy side will all depend on you and how well you learn to shoot and follow the fundamentals as well as finding that round that works best out of your barrel.

Second a .12 ga or if that is too much to handle(not talking crap here) a .20ga. I always suggest starting with a Mossberg 500(especially the field security combo) or the Remington 870. Both are pump action, both are outstanding in the durability/reliability department, and the prices are unbeatable. There are some higher end like the Berreta and Benneli but you can run into some big issues if you choose the wrong model or even for repairs( yea all guns fail eventually). You could look into semi-autos from there. Most importantly you need to hold these firearms and see what fits you best and what features you like located where on the firearm i.e. safety, bolt release, shell release, loading gate.

Third a pistol. This is an argument starter right here. Check them all out. I am a Glock fan boy but that is just me. Springfield, S&W(m&p series), Ruger(SR series), Sig Sauer, CZ, HK, FNH, and the list goes on and on of very reliable handguns. Choose wisely because what fits one's hand great and shoots good for them doesn't mean it works for you. That is where handling in shop and renting if possible come into play and then learning fundamentals from there. As far as Caliber choice, another argument starter, 9mm is a great choice. It is effective and there are a lot of choices for it but that is not to diminish the other popular rounds like the .40s&w(my favorite), the .45, .357 sig, 10mm,oh and the .22, well those are just the top choices but there are others I just like to start people on the 9mm and they can decide for themselves after that.

Fourth Rifles. Well that is very subjective to your wants and needs and we would have to cover all those to gather a starting point.

Well if you read all of this just keep this in mind, I have a heck of a lot more to say on this subject. I went a little long sorry.


----------



## Smack

samuel-a said:


> I get to meet this lady every now and then.
> 
> 
> 
> Not fancy, but gets the job done...



Not much fun shooting one of those with the night scope on it while wearing a M17 mask.


----------



## GotTheBug

4 pages of gun conversation on a gold site. Now, gentlemen, I give you balance...

http://the305.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/pizza-boobs-and-beer.jpg


----------



## artart47

Hi !
I have others, but for quiet, effective protection, 22cal. revolver, two rounds 22 shorts
artart47


----------



## Irons

If I lived in Canada, I would pick up an old 303 Enfield. You can always find 303 ammo there.

I have a Savage MK II bolt action 22 that was made in Canada. It's much more accurate than my 10/22 and will take any short/long/long rifle ammunition and shoot it very accurately. A good hunter only needs one shot, two at max. For Hunting the CCI Velocitor HP, with 181 foot pounds of muzzle energy is my choice. Maine requires a cartridge with 150 foot pounds ME for Deer, although the 22 LR is specifically excluded.

The main point is buy a gun that is legal and you can find ammo for. Go down to Wally World and see what's available on the shelf, then decide what rifle to buy.

Assault rifles are a cop magnet.


----------



## niteliteone

GotTheBug said:


> 4 pages of gun conversation on a gold site. Now, gentlemen, I give you balance...
> 
> http://the305.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/pizza-boobs-and-beer.jpg


MMMmmmm :!: :!: 
Heine, Heine and Pizza :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## justinhcase

My goodness you boy's are aloud some nice toy's.
we are not aloud any fire arms du to an idiot called Mikel Ryan taking out a small town with an AK47 in the early ninety's
Iron's has very good taste though. I did all my basics training with the old 303 enfield.lovely bit of kit we then used the 7.62S.L.R. untill the SA80 came in just when I left but have to say I will always have a softy spot for the old 303.
You can do a really nice easy conversion to any tipe of round you want with an add sleave to the inside of the barrel and a slight tuning of the extractor . I have even seen a completely silenced 9mm conversion that split the mag in half and caught all your spent brass before it hit the ground in the front half.
All you hear is the tick of the firing pin and the tap on the target.pluss if you want some thing that keeps on ticking they have proven them self beyond any other weapon in some of the nastiest places in history.
And I guarantee that very few intruders would know what to do with a fixed bayonet charge


----------



## ericrm

i made it yeah, as soon as the money get availlable i will buy a mossberg 590 , got to play with a 500 during the exam and that is a sweet sweet gun. i start with a .12 because i does everything big/small game and defense. than i will go with ruger 10/22 , glock 17, remington 700 in 3006, ahh im dreaming ,dont wake me.


----------



## Irons

justinhcase said:


> My goodness you boy's are aloud some nice toy's.
> we are not aloud any fire arms du to an idiot called Mikel Ryan taking out a small town with an AK47 in the early ninety's
> Iron's has very good taste though. I did all my basics training with the old 303 enfield.lovely bit of kit we then used the 7.62S.L.R. untill the SA80 came in just when I left but have to say I will always have a softy spot for the old 303.
> You can do a really nice easy conversion to any tipe of round you want with an add sleave to the inside of the barrel and a slight tuning of the extractor . I have even seen a completely silenced 9mm conversion that split the mag in half and caught all your spent brass before it hit the ground in the front half.
> All you hear is the tick of the firing pin and the tap on the target.pluss if you want some thing that keeps on ticking they have proven them self beyond any other weapon in some of the nastiest places in history.
> And I guarantee that very few intruders would know what to do with a fixed bayonet charge



The Taliban still like the old Enfield. I was up in the Punjab a number of years ago, and the local gunsmiths were turning out pretty nice copies, all made by hand. The 303 is good for any game in North America. The only thing I didn't like was the selection of bullets in .311 vs .308 for reloading, otherwise it's a good, reliable shooter.


----------



## justinhcase

I know some of the back street and jungle workshops can do very amazing things.
I cam across a chap in thailand who you bring your own chunk of steel to and he literally hacks a very serviceable sidearm out of it with in a week.
By hand with no C.N.C. or mill's. the only power tool he had was an old black and decker pilar drill.
I thought his M1911 had a better feel to the real thing.the only thing he bought in where the turned barrel's and springs.
Best fire arm is the one in your head you can make any time you want.


----------



## nickvc

Justin I have to correct an earlier statement about us not been allowed firearms here in the UK, we are but you have to apply for a firearms license which if I remember correctly has to have two sponsors who know you personally, a doctors note to say you suffer from no depression or take any drugs or over use alcohol and then you are vetted in person by the police who also inspect your locked and separate gun and ammunition cabinets before its finally either granted or refused, certain weapons are still banned but you can get a gun if you can be bothered. Failing that do what the criminals do and buy one illegally :evil:


----------



## justinhcase

Yes I know and on top of that you have to have a land owner who will give you written permission to shoot on there land and take part responsibility for any mishaps or be a member of a range.
And all the good ranges who do interesting disciplines are invite only and almost impossible to even find out about.
you can get a license for a 22 as long as it is not self loading and get a shot gun as long as it is only double shot .but only shooter's with a specialist home office license can hold any thing else.
But to any real extent they have been put out of reach of the man in the street.
security is 90% of my income and I am very good at handling interaction with the police and quite frankly the pain out weighs the pleasure.but because of this you can pick up a good 308 dear rifle for £200 because only twenty people on exmoor and ten to fifteen that amount in Scotland can satisfy the legislation for the need there for the licensing of the weapon..
I just keep a good length of folded steel instead.
and I would not like to face the eight year stretch you get for just having an unlicensed fire arm or the life sentence if you are found to have fired it.
And I come from Ireland which is even more on top they will not even let you have an air pistol.
Not to try marketing but if any one is in Ireland and want's a nice place to stay with it's own range and riding you can not do better than visiting my uncle Brian at Rathe House.http://www.rathehouse.ie.
He is as mad as some one who has been sniffing hot mercury amalgum(hope that is the right use of amalgam for you) But you will love him.


----------



## Geo

Here, you can buy a long gun and carry it home the same day. There is a 7 day "cool down" period for hand guns.In some states, you must wait a week before you can take possession after you purchase a pistol. In Alabama, the 7 day waiting period has been struck down. You can purchase and take possession of any firearm in the same day. proponents of stricter gun laws was dealt a blow and had some wind let out of their sails when the news of the mass killings a couple days ago broke and the weapon used was a knife. If a person has that sort of thing in their mind, then they really don't need a gun when a knife or baseball bat or vehicle will work to do the same thing.


----------



## justinhcase

I read an article in the time's about two or three years ago about a small town that has the lowest crime rate in the hole of the developed world.
It apparently was it your state of Texas and the trick was that by law every able bodied man and woman of age had to carry a fire arm at all time's.
Only the criminals where unarmed and one man went to jail every year for being a conscientious objector but did not become a criminal so was required to get a gun and never did so kept going to jail.
Turns the hole gun control on it's head if you ask me.


----------



## Geo

I've never heard of the right to bear arms becoming a mandatory law anywhere. I would have to say that it was just sensationalism. There are certain places that it is required by state law to carry firearms but none that im aware of in the lower 48. It deals mainly with self defense in the frontier states like Alaska.


----------



## justinhcase

Well the story was definitely in the Times and from the article it was described as the only town of it's kind in the world.
It was used as a case study in a series about increasing violence in our world.
The pictures where of a one horse town that looked like the set of a very good western/horror movie.
I have had one to meany blows to the head in my time and the name eludes me which is a pain.
Maybe some one in Texas could suggest a candidate.


----------



## Palladium

Its funny how gun laws are different in different societies. some one said above that it was nice we are allowed to own these guns. we are not ALLOWED to have anything as some would lead you to believe. It a right we are guaranteed by LAW. Like Jeff said we have very friendly gun laws here in bama. we are passing laws now that will give us a tax free holiday here so you can buy all you want without sales tax. You don't even need a permit here to carry a gun as long as it is strapped to you side and in plain site.


----------



## ericrm

canada is not the same , let says a glock 17 ,because glock 26 is prohibited by law(too short), my futur glock 17. i must be an active member of a shooting range,no shooting during 1 years i loose my glock. i cannot bear arm on my own property, just asked them 2 weeks ago ... if i want to go to shooting range i need my glock in a box with a lock and a lock on my glock (2 lock) i need to have an autorisation to bring the gun to the club ,and from the club to the house by the shortest way, i am not alowed to go on a longuer way. those laws only get in the way of the good poeple who respect them.


----------



## jimdoc

ericrm said:


> canada is not the same , let says a glock 17 ,because glock 26 is prohibited by law(too short), my futur glock 17. i must be an active member of a shooting range,no shooting during 1 years i loose my glock. i cannot bear arm on my own property, just asked them 2 weeks ago ... if i want to go to shooting range i need my glock in a box with a lock and a lock on my glock (2 lock) i need to have an autorisation to bring the gun to the club ,and from the club to the house by the shortest way, i am not alowed to go on a longuer way. those laws only get in the way of the good poeple who respect them.




That sounds like the privilege of being a gun owner in New Jersey.
Just across the river from me, yet it is like a very different country.

Jim


----------



## Anonymous

Try the UK, you can't even own a pistol of any kind.


----------



## Palladium

I use to curse Alabama years ago. Lately it seems that i can't praise it enough. We have passed laws that have not only protected but expanded the gun owners rights in our state. We are repealing the common core school standards. We have the strongest home schooling laws in the nation to protect individuals rights. They have passed laws to challenge imminent domain and protect private property rights against the establishment. We didn't except the expansion of the health care law. We encourage and recruit new industry and technology to our state through tax incentives that aren't on the backs of the citizens. and last but not least i love our environmental protection agency ADEM. I've never meet a group of people like ours who will go out of their way to help you secede instead of trying to punish you through regulations. Yes sir i think god i'm a southern boy! 8)


----------



## pimpneightez

I have a Mossberg bolt action map chambered in .223. It's a really nice rifle for hunting and relativly inexpensive. I think I p s id 550 for it and comes with a scope. But my baby is the AR..


----------



## sharkhook

Palladium said:


> I use to curse Alabama years ago. Lately it seems that i can't praise it enough. We have passed laws that have not only protected but expanded the gun owners rights in our state. We are repealing the common core school standards. We have the strongest home schooling laws in the nation to protect individuals rights. They have passed laws to challenge imminent domain and protect private property rights against the establishment. We didn't except the expansion of the health care law. We encourage and recruit new industry and technology to our state through tax incentives that aren't on the backs of the citizens. and last but not least i love our environmental protection agency ADEM. I've never meet a group of people like ours who will go out of their way to help you secede instead of trying to punish you through regulations. Yes sir i think god i'm a southern boy! 8)



You are quite right. I have, and do shoot with the local Police Dept as well as with many from the county Sheriff's office quite often during the summer. I have been on the range with Federal Marshals as well, that was a bit different to say the least. I have done this for many years, even before the new laws came into effect. I used to shoot combat handgun matches with many other law enforcement officers from other states as well. I enjoy it very much. Locally we have a firing range that teaches new shooters safety as well as practical shooting methods, many local people, especially women, take advantage of it. Like most things that can be dangerous, education and practice is key.


----------



## pimpneightez

I think the town you're thinking of is kennesaw Georgia. In 1982 they passed a law that every able bodied man must own a firearm in the city limits. Lowest crime rate in the US now.


----------



## steyr223

Hey guys 
Not to go off track but the sheriff's are our last hope in protecting our borders
They are the only entity that answers only to tbe people
Sheriff mack (if i remember) refused to obey the feds in enforcing unconstitutional traffic stops to check for under the influenc drivers
They fired him ,he took them to court,he won .
He has banded i believe 487 sheriff's together who also will uphold there oath to the constitution

A police cchief tried to do this ,he was fired and the whole 
Police force was disbanded..oops.

The sheriff's in California have already passed a law that states if any military personnel or politicians come to take away our weapons that he will be detained and imprisoned the same as a regular man

Steyr223 rob


----------



## niteliteone

Now that's funny.
Here in Fresno, it's the Sheriffs that are taking away all the guns from the people.


----------



## butcher

People elect the Sheriff, the majority of the people there (it sounds like), are willing to give up their constitutional rights and freedom.

As long as people are willing to elect politicians, or allow these people to rule over them. politicians or leaders who are willing to take away our rights and freedom. we will continue to lose our rights and freedom, it is very easy to lose rights and freedom, it is very costly to gain them.


----------



## justinhcase

That's why I support http://www.thevenusproject.com/
Propper manigment of the hole solar system for the good of all life form's
Once the semy harless apes on this particular ball of rock and slime realise that there is just about an infinit amount of resorces with in a week's travel they will stop throwing thing like insults and lead and we can all get on with being creative and being nice to each other.
Then we can all have a planitoied launcher each and know they will not be abused.
Justin


----------



## solar_plasma

Something funny I'd like to share with you mates:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QtM7X0xYN8 :lol: 

My son made me aware of this link and I thought this would match into bar&grill topic fire arms.


----------



## justinhcase

solar_plasma said:


> Something funny I'd like to share with you mates:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QtM7X0xYN8 :lol:
> 
> My son made me aware of this link and I thought this would match into bar&grill topic fire arms.


My old R.S.O. would have fit if he saw fire arms being handled like that.
Very good dexterity and weapon familiarization,but only a matter of time before some one get's tagged.


----------



## solar_plasma

You are absolutely right. On the other side, we watch stunts on tv and would never think of jumping burning from a cliff ourselves. Maybe it's a little like refining on youtube, - you don't see, how much learning it took to do this safely.


----------



## justinhcase

solar_plasma said:


> You are absolutely right. On the other side, we watch stunts on tv and would never think of jumping burning from a cliff ourselves. Maybe it's a little like refining on youtube, - you don't see, how much learning it took to do this safely.


I just wait for the video of when they shoot the cameraman.
I Know it is bad but I get quite a lot of giggles from the number of people who treat there side arm like a toy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnfQmgL0IYs
I was brought up on a farm and if I ever pointed a weapon at any thing with out the intention of killing that thing or passed or picked up a weapon before clearing I got a hiding that hurt the week after.
Some things are ingrained very deeply. :lol:


----------



## Barren Realms 007

justinhcase said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right. On the other side, we watch stunts on tv and would never think of jumping burning from a cliff ourselves. Maybe it's a little like refining on youtube, - you don't see, how much learning it took to do this safely.
> 
> 
> 
> I just wait for the video of when they shoot the cameraman.
> I Know it is bad but I get quite a lot of giggles from the number of people who treat there side arm like a toy.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnfQmgL0IYs
> I was brought up on a farm and if I ever pointed a weapon at any thing with out the intention of killing that thing or passed or picked up a weapon before clearing I got a hiding that hurt the week after.
> Some things are ingrained very deeply. :lol:
Click to expand...


Yea I've seen that one. That's what the guy get for having his finger in the wrong place and acting like an idiot and trying to act all bad ***.


----------



## Palladium

justinhcase said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right. On the other side, we watch stunts on tv and would never think of jumping burning from a cliff ourselves. Maybe it's a little like refining on youtube, - you don't see, how much learning it took to do this safely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was brought up on a farm and if I ever pointed a weapon at any thing with out the intention of killing that thing or passed or picked up a weapon before clearing I got a hiding that hurt the week after.
> Some things are ingrained very deeply. :lol:
Click to expand...


That's the way i was taught. Chances are if i'm pointing a gun at you their is a 99% probability you are 1. Fixing to get shot or 2. Already shot.
Guns should be treated with the utmost respect for their authority and the consequences they can bring.


----------



## ericrm

this is what they make sure to teach you before you can own a gun in canada, and i think it is a pretty good idea...


----------



## solar_plasma

It is an extremely dangerous tool, just like a car. It is different, if you are a father with your car full of children or if you drive races or if you are a stuntman. It is different, if you are a kid and your father is a hunter, if you are a hunter, police man, soldier, if there is peace or if you are a soldier in a battle or if you are GSG9, Kampfschwimmer, SEK or a seal or a legionaire. I think you guys are overinterpreting. I can#T hear that anymore. My dad was a hunter, I am grown up myself with weapon, ofcourse I learned the same respect of those weopen like you, - I am sure more in deed. I have been in the army myself, the american soldiers have been quite less regulated in their behaviour on the firing range than us german soldiers. 

Look at this clip at as is: a stunt, dangerous, but a stunt. Nothing anyone should even think of doing at home.

I shouldn't have posted that link, I have understood now.

Hope this can come to an end now. If this topic, I raised, has has raised disturbance, maybe a mod should consider if it should be deleted again.


----------



## ericrm

solar_plasma"
I shouldn't have posted that link said:


> why? i was a nice video clip. i dont mind it at all. and it is a nice peacefull discussion. there is no problem dont feel bad


----------



## solar_plasma

okay, thank you, I feel better.


----------



## Palladium

Nope! No problem here either.


----------



## justinhcase

a good debate is one of the things I like about this forum.
We should be able to discuss any issue with out the people taking part getting upset.
I have to say I am a bit concerned about people trying to use things designed for destruction for creativity.
I know some people who think they are artists but only use H.E.
It reminds me of when the states tried to use nuclear devices to form harbors and the soviets to make water reservoirs in the desert.
They seem like a cool idea but never turn out so in the long run.
But just enjoying the company of all you great chaps.


----------

