# Has anyone tried to replicate the Shor System?



## IntelGold (Jun 25, 2013)

Hi, As the title states, has anyone tried to replicate the Shor system? If a post has been done on the subject i cannot find it (i Have looked).
It can't be that difficult can it. I just like the idea of a salt water system. Really want to build one if its possible. I have managed to make my own Sulphuric Cell and it works great. If i am not mistaken is it called a fizzer cell?


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## goldsilverpro (Jun 25, 2013)

IntelGold said:


> Hi, As the title states, has anyone tried to replicate the Shor system? If a post has been done on the subject i cannot find it (i Have looked).
> It can't be that difficult can it. I just like the idea of a salt water system. Really want to build one if its possible. I have managed to make my own Sulphuric Cell and it works great. If i am not mistaken is it called a fizzer cell?


Actually, the fizzer cell uses hydrochloric acid. It's main purpose is to dissolve gold electrolytically so as to provide solution for the Wohlwill cell. The fizzer cell utilizes a porous cup acting as a membrane to isolate the gold solution from the cathode and thus prevent the dissolved gold from depositing.


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## IntelGold (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks Goldsilverpro, I ment is the shor system using salt water is it a fizzer cell? Has anyone tried to make one?


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## IntelGold (Jun 27, 2013)

Picture to be added.......


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## IntelGold (Jun 27, 2013)

Would Ammonuim Chloride work better than salt water?


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## IntelGold (Jun 28, 2013)

Right, I think i have got it..
Cathode is a graphite rod.
Anode is the Karat jewellery soldered to the postive side with heat shrink and silicone sealant.
The electrolyte is Ammonium Chloride + Non iodized salt.
Place karat jewellery in a porous cup with anode bag which is in the salt solution.
Catalyst is hydrogen peroxide. You put this on the Karat gold side facing the cathode.
Percipitate with Smb or Sodium Sulfite.
I am very new to chemistry so please be kind, i have done a lot of research and this is my best method at the moment.
If anything is wrong please let me know.
Hope someone can help as i have lots of karat gold to be refined.
Thanks Guys.


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## IntelGold (Jun 28, 2013)

What do you think of this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/American-Educational-Voltaic-Cell-with-8-Electrodes-and-Porous-Cup-/400497779883?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Other&hash=item5d3f8724ab


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## MysticColby (Jun 28, 2013)

I thought we were supposed to start with what works when refining metals and not re-invent the wheel? 8)


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## IntelGold (Jun 29, 2013)

True, But if i am correct this is not reinventing anything. I am just trying to make a cheaper alternative to a already known system. If someone would let me know if i am correct in my understandings.
Thanks.


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## butcher (Jun 29, 2013)

I do not see it as reinventing the wheel, this wheel is old, early in the forum a saturated salt brine gold cell with a porous cup was discussed many times, as well as the cell and patents of Shore's cells which were most likely taken from older mining processes that were in writing before Shore came up with their patents.

Reading these may help you with your search for answers to this old wheel.


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## Platdigger (Jun 30, 2013)

IntelGold, it seems you have read their patents. I remember that they used ammonium chloride.
Let us know how it works out.


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## Marcel (Jul 1, 2013)

We are currently discussing such a cell as an alternative the sulphuric electrolyte. Problems have been identified that simple salt( NaCl) will form NaClO4, which is explosive and toxic. A 
So the project is kinda stuck at this point because the process does not turn out to be as clean and green as it sounds.


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## IntelGold (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks Marcel, Could you point me to the Discussion you are refering to please. Thanks.


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## Marcel (Jul 2, 2013)

@Intelgold: The discussion is not ongoing on this forum here. I exchange thoughts about a goldcell with some other refiners in germany and we have a chemist on board who has given us valuable input on posible security dangers. I can assure you that this statement is true. 
Unfortunatly the german and the english wiki differ on the matter of creating sodium perchlorate. 
The english wiki says: Sodium perchlorate is produced by anodic oxidation of sodium chlorate,* not *sodium chloride, at a platinum electrode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_perchlorate
ClO3−(aq) + H2O(l) → ClO4−(aq) + H2(g)

The german says that it can be produced by either using sodium chlorate directly OR sodium chloride (tablesalt) which will - after some time - form sodium chlorate in an electrolytic cell. 
There are experts here on this board who can explain that much better. As it appears that simple seawater can be transferred into explosive rocket fuel just by hooking it to a battery charger. Scary..

There has been another thread on a saltwater cell that I found on GRF that also states this. I upload the slide, you may find the thread by yourself (look for mixture of...):


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## solar_plasma (Jul 3, 2013)

Brönsted - Uorganisk kemi, 1920, describes those processes. In the cold they are very slow. Only under high temperature hypochlorite (formed by alkali hydroxide and chlorine) will be reduced to chlorate and then perchlorate and chloride by chlorine. The whole topic in this book sounds so complicated to me, when I read it, that I really don't believe, that there is a great danger, it would happen accidently in greater amount under electrolysis or that someone could use this process easily to do bad things. And if so, it is still a blend of different salts, which are not easily devided by everyone. And a blend with 50% KCl or NaCl ist not very instable.

Any chemist etc. may correct me.


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## 924T (Jul 27, 2013)

IntelGold,

If you read both Shor patents, you'll find out that their first cell used Salt.

Their second cell was switched over to use Ammonium Chloride, and in that second patent, they do describe
the problems they were endeavoring to correct, that were happening in the Salt cell.

It's been long enough since I read both patents that I only remember 1 of the problems they were trying
to correct: the formation of Sodium Hydroxide at the cathode.

If you want some really interesting reading, Google "Shor Problems" or "iShor Problems".

Cheers,

Mike


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## NobleMetalWorks (Jul 27, 2013)

IntelGold said:


> Hi, As the title states, has anyone tried to replicate the Shor system?



Maybe a better question would be: "Does anyone know what chemistry/technology the Shor system is basing their product on?

Shor isn't doing anything new, or anything novel. They are using well known processes and really only selling their equipment. So if you purchase this system, you are not paying for the process, you are paying for the equipment they designed to use a well known process.

But why? All you have to do is google Shor to quickly figure out that it's not really a well thought of product.

i think the subject has been talked about to exhaustion on this forum. 

Every so often someone asks questions about processes that are not talked about as much as the ones more commonly used. It's interesting to discuss, and interesting to explore the possibilities. I have tried many different novel processes myself. But only after I was well experienced in the most common ways to process material. In building a foundation and basic understanding, it has enabled me to understand other novel methods, and how to proceed testing these other methods and understanding their viability in comparison to the processes most commonly used.

If we were sitting down having a cup of coffee, and you asked me for my personal opinion, my advice, I would suggest this. Get a good understanding of the fundamentals, chemistry, metallurgy, electrochemistry, hydrometallurgy, pyrometallurgy, etc. Once you have a fairly good understanding of these topics, then you will not only be better equipped to explore other means of processing, recovering and refining precious metals, but you will also be able to recover and refine those same metals and generate the income required to invest in your desire to explore other processes. Your desire to learn is commendable, but starting with the methods that are more commonly used will allow you to ask questions and more readily receive answers than attempting to start with processes less commonly used.

Shor certainly isn't going to help you.

Scott

In


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## goldsilverpro (Jul 28, 2013)

"Has anyone tried to replicate the Shor System?" 

This begs the question - Why would anyone want to?


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## IntelGold (Jul 30, 2013)

Ok, Point taken. I have built a small experimental cell which has not been used as i am not sure if it will work. I have added some pics, please tell me what you think. Should i abandon the idea?
Yes there are 2 cathodes, i am going to join them together. They are height adjustable. The anode bag is polypropylene which goes over a porous flower pot. Any suggestions would be welcome.


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## Gold (Jul 30, 2013)

I like it.


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## butcher (Jul 31, 2013)

I am interested in what you learn from this.


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## IntelGold (Aug 1, 2013)

I am in the middle of testing. The amps will not go above 1 amp, i have a 10 amp power source. I am guessing the flower pot is to thick and not alowing the flow of electric through? It has taken some of the gold off of a watch case i am trying out. Some of the gold is floating on the surface and the bottom of the bag is a dark black color. Any ideas?
Thanks.


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## Geo (Aug 1, 2013)

theres a lot of factors.amperage, voltage, concentration of electrolyte, temperature of electrolyte, proximity of anode to cathode, size of anode, size of cathode, density of the clay pot all can play a role in the reaction. is the pot just a standard type pot without a coating of any kind? did you soak the pot in the electrolyte well before starting the experiment? trapped air in the clay could slow the reaction. if i had to make a guess, it sounds like the anode and cathode is too far apart. im not the best person to give advise on this but thats what it sounds like to me.


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## Palladium (Aug 1, 2013)

Give it at least 24 hours for the solution to balance out in the cell and start working good.


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## Traveller11 (Aug 2, 2013)

http://utahpyro.org/compositions/HowToMakeSodiumPerchlorate.pdf


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