# Flatware. solid or plated?



## bisjac (Mar 19, 2012)

I have about a years worth of silver flatware from goodwill, garage sales, and other such places.

i been cutting into them today. sorting aside that are visibly obviously sterling plated copper, and similar brass color under-metals.

now for those who have taken a fine hacksaw to flatware. you would agree that the copper.brass plated ones are much harder to cut. while the (solid?) ones, the saw slices em like butter.

thats my question. as i am aware that nickel or cupranickel are common base metals for sterling plated items.
are these easy to cut ones solid sterling? i didnt think so as the stamps on the items reflect common plate companies or even say "silver plate" on them, while "925" is usually reserved for solid sterling items.

i just want to be clear on what piles i should be making.


summed up;
i cant VISUALLY tell the difference between solid sterling and sterling plated nickel.
the issue is reserved for the flatware that isnt so clearly marked.


----------



## element47 (Mar 19, 2012)

I have a few hundred pounds of sterling forks and spoons. The oldest pieces are maybe from the 1890's. All, every, each and every single sterling item says "STERLING" or 925/1000 on it. No mfr would make items out of sterling without so stamping them so they could be sold for more money. Sterling is rather bendy....plated items are stiffer. The point is, anything made from sterling silver will say STERLING on it, if it was made within the last 100 years.


----------



## bisjac (Mar 19, 2012)

for the "silverish" metal that some of my sterling plated items here are.
WHAT is the base metal exactly?

ive got 44, 3-4 ounce buttons made from these wares. before i bring them to the acid i want to understand what i have.

these were separated from the obvious base copper or base brass ones. these were the softer ones i had thought were possibly solid. but im not committed to that yet.


----------



## element47 (Mar 19, 2012)

I don't think there is any sort of "standard" alloy underlying silver-plated flatware. I have seen obvious brass (but, remember, there are about 150 different types of "brass") on very old pieces that might have originated in Europe. Without a pretty serious torch, I'm skeptical that you could be melting nickel unless it makes a eutectic alloy with copper. I can't comment on what metal or metals you are finding under your silver plate. Different mfrs used different alloys at different times and perhaps different alloys on large vs small items, due to the bendiness. For example, little souvenir spoons (that aren't used for anything) might be soft brass, larger serving spoons from the same mfr and same era might be a different composition because they need to be stiffer. Frankly, I've never considered any of them as having any value so I've not accumulated much, if any, plated items so I apologize for not being able to supply much useful info on them. As I said earlier, I have never encountered a sterling item that did not say STERLING (or 925/1000) on it.


----------



## bisjac (Mar 19, 2012)

yes i didnt think i was dealing with any sterling.
i am aware that "sterling" isnt what plate usually is, but instead pure plate usually.

my confusion is because i have ware that is NOT solid sterling, melted down. but visually, they appeared silver'ish in color so i wasnt sure what my alloy is. i know nickel is often involved.

is a copper/nickle alloy silver in color? at least possible mixes that an american 1900-1980 flatware company would use as a base metal?


dont mind my ignorance. lol. im just learning how to use nitric acid. (i have real hallmarked sterling goods from ebay i plan to refine) but i will first play with the plated junk wares.

i expect a copper/nickle/silver nitrate? based on what i think i know i have in these buttons.
however i assume it will be mostly copper.


----------



## butcher (Mar 20, 2012)

I am clueless about the many variations of base metals they may use, and I do not know if there would even be data or documentation on this.
I think you will find using nitric very expensive to consume all of the base metal involved, even if you could get nitric at a very reasonable price, and then waste treatment, could also become costly, and you may find, what material, you may have been able to sell as scrap metal now in a form of waste you have to spend money on, melting the once plated metal into all of that base metal does not seem like a very good approach to recovering the tiny bit of silver that was once concentrated on the outside of the spoon.

I think selling to a scrap yard that will sell to someone who can recover or reuse all of the metals involved and will pay you for them, so that you can then buy some sterling to work with may be a much better Idea.


----------



## nickvc (Mar 20, 2012)

As a word to the wise be aware that there is a material called Sheffield plate which was similar to GF but silver was used, if I remember correctly it was used from around 1770- 1840, do not scrap any of these items their value far outstrips the silver value. There are usually makers marks on the items and they are usually very well made but the copper edges can be seen, this was before the advent of silver plating as a usable technology.


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 20, 2012)

Without the use of nitric acid and Schwerter's solution, you're going to spin your wheels unnecessarily. Combined, they will reveal the nature of the material you're testing. 
There is a white metal alloy used under silver plated flatware that rivals the appearance of silver. The eye often can not discern one from the other, although if they are old and have not been used for some time, the base metal often discolors enough to distinguish one from the other. Old, well worn flatware often displays both of them on each piece. I suggest you inspect the backs of spoons for wear. 

Cutting through these pieces is not a reliable test. A drop of nitric acid applied to the core will reveal the true nature of the material. If the inside, or a filed notch, yields a cream colored surface, with virtually no blue reaction, it is most likely a silver alloy. You can expect to find alloys as low as 700 fine, up to 925 (Sterling). Coin (900 fine) is somewhat common, as well. All of the silver alloys will test blood red with Schwerter's solution. Base metals tested with the same solution will yield a blue/green reaction, although it is difficult to distinguish because of the orange coloration of the test solution. In such cases, a combined test with Shwerter's, along with nitric, will define what you have. Nitric acid on the white or yellow alloy will yield a blue/green solution almost instantly. It will also define the border of the plated portion as compared to the base metal, although that may require close inspection. 

I feel you are wasting your time with plated flatware. There are few, if any, lucrative methods for recovering the silver, although one of the readers of the board had discussed doing so with success. Sorry, I am unable to point you to his posts, but a search may help. 

Learn to test these items properly, using the two reagents I have mentioned. It will save you a lot of grief and agony. 

Harold


----------



## punk1709 (Apr 17, 2012)

hi there,
i think you can see it from the numbers stamped on it..if there 3 numbers like 800 it is solid. it means 800 parts of 1000 parts are silver. if there are only 2 numbers like 80 or 90 its plated and means 80 or 90 parts from 100 parts of the PLATING are silver. 

greetings punk1709


----------



## henos (Apr 17, 2012)

punk1709 said:


> hi there,
> (...), if there are only 2 numbers like 80 or 90 its plated and means 80 or 90 parts from 100 parts of the PLATING are silver.
> 
> greetings punk1709



This is not true...
These numbers indicate how many in 24 pieces (two dozen) is in grams of silver (as plating).
henos


----------



## Pilgrim2850 (Apr 19, 2012)

The two common forms of plated silver are sheffield plate and silverplate/electroplate. Sheffield plate is a cheaper substitute for sterling, produced by fusing sheets of silver to the top and bottom of a sheet of copper or base metal. Silver plate or electroplate is formed when a thin layer of pure or sterling silver is deposited electrolytically on the surface of the base metal. Common base metals include copper, brass, nickle silver-an alloy of copper, zinc and nickle-and britannia metal-a tin alloy with 5-10% antimony. Electroplated materials are often stamped EPNS for electroplated nickle silver, or EPBM for electroplated britannia metal. On plated silver the terms "triple" and "quadruple"indicate the number of coatings received by the base metal. EPNS and EPBM are the most common names attributed to silver plate items. But many other names are used for silver plate: EPWM- electroplate on white metal, EPC-electroplate on copper, argentium argentine plate, argentum, and a whole list of others. Most silverware that I have stripped has a silver looking metal underneath which I assume is a britania metal (tin alloy with atimony). Hope this helps. Information is from a silverplate book that I have.


----------



## Lobby (Apr 19, 2012)

punk1709 said:


> hi there,
> i think you can see it from the numbers stamped on it..if there 3 numbers like 800 it is solid. it means 800 parts of 1000 parts are silver. if there are only 2 numbers like 80 or 90 its plated and means 80 or 90 parts from 100 parts of the PLATING are silver.
> 
> greetings punk1709



I suggest caution with this 800 number. Going off memory, there's a brand of silver plate using 800 in its name. Some came by my store and I was suspicious. It was clearly silver plate.


To the original poster, your comments worry me. You must have extremely good eyes to tell the difference between plate and sterling. Certainly, silver plate, since the coating is 100% silver, tarnishes to a darker finish, but I'd be really caution using that visual test to determine what material to buy.

Instead, look for hallmarks: if the silverware doesn't say "sterling," "925," or have specific hallmarks (stamps identifying the maker - usually European), it ain't sterling. It's plated.

Just trying to help. Not trying to argue...


----------



## Geo (Apr 20, 2012)

there is a brass that is typically called "white brass" and can be sold as such at the scrap yard. it has about the same value as yellow brass but has about four different grades. white brass will contain (in different proportions) tin,zinc,copper and nickel. so if you happen to melt a piece of metal that should be brass and its white, dont be too alarmed, it could still be brass.


----------



## jewelerdave (Aug 18, 2012)

With the exception of hand made pieces and the like the fact of the matter is this.

If something was made out of sterling silver or any silver it was a huge selling point. its marked. it states "I HAVE VALUE, I AM SILVER"
the hall marks will vary but it is this simple as I explain to people who bring me plated heavy items all the time.

Fact. No Big producer of silver items is going to make something and not clearly mark it. or leave it off just so some person can some 30 to 100 years later find it in a thrift store or at a garage sale so you can make money off it.

Fact. people have been for centuries, and will continue to do so for centuries, Attempt to make something look more valuable than it is. and sell it cheap too the masses. Weather its Victorian styled silverware or brand new designer hand bags. Someone will always make a cheap knock off and they will be more common than the original.

Nitric is the safest and more inexpensive sure fire way to test. or get a good feel with a file. A jewelers file will glide through silver where it will chatter on nickel alloys and show copper with ease.
Or you can buy a portable XRF gun. very handy to have. But in most cases. As I tell people all the time, its usually plate unless it says otherwise. but even then.
The amount of fake stuff coming out of China is insane. 

Weather by malice or just the fact that any guy and China can look at Ebay and see that chains that have a marked of a strange symbol 925 or sterling sells for more than the others that dont. Would you not think to put it on there to make more money? after all that brand name is worth more so if it looks like it, make it that way and it sells for more.
They think, oh stupid 鬼佬 they pay more for that.

It would be the same if we took pictures of Americans can found that they sold for more in China if you put This 鬼佬 symbol on the picture. wow it sells for more? lets make a million of them.

Bottom line, be careful and be skeptical of everything,


----------



## MartyC (Jan 8, 2021)

I'd be reasonably confident that you're dealing with silver plate on a Brittania metal base. As mentioned in an earlier post Brittania metal is roughly 92%tin, 5% Antimony and 3% copper. 

I'm currently using a Nitric acid solution on an old candle stick made in this manner. Am now trying to work out if I can make it economical by getting pure silver and tin which I can use for other purposes. Don't like my chances but giving it a crack anyway.


----------



## butcher (Jan 8, 2021)

With tin and nitric acid, you may want to lookup metastannic acid...

That sounds like the combination of some types of soft solder.


----------

