# noob with questions



## Anonymous (Oct 27, 2008)

I found this site this weekend and have been impressed with the wealth of knowledge and experience here. I have an opportunity to set up a lab to extract Gold/Platinum/Paladium/Rhodium for a mining operation (possibly several in the near future as the others begin operating.) 

The precious metals are associated with iron, magnatites... it is below 20 mesh in size (I can have it pulverised to below 100mesh if I request it). It comes from the tailings of an old silver mine, thus the silver has already been extracted and doesn't contain copper. The fire assay results work out to about 12 oz gold and 4 oz PGM in 4kg of concentrate. I have several cases of reagent grade HCL (came with a pallet at an auction awhile back) Thus AR seemed a logical choice to get started. I have a background in chemistry, although I haven't used it in a number of years. 

Any good advice for what I would need to get started? Anyone have a list of equipment to get started with? I am looking to do more than just make a hobby out of it. I have found surplus lab equipment.. lab hoods for $199, stir/hot plates $39, chemical cabinets, slate counter tops.. I found 4L filtering flasks for $48ea (is that a good size?) Buchner filters $50, a Corning water deionizer for $199, vacuum pump $129.. are some of the items off the top of my head. I found an Orion 420 pH meter for $250 but I am not sure that I need to be that accurate on pH, a Mettler balance for $199... It adds up fast. 

Which methods are best to systematically separate Gold, Platinum, Palladium & Rhodium? The old standard of HCl/Nitric Acid AR? Organic solvent? How long would they need to completely dissolve? I know I have lots of reading yet to do. 

Thanks in advance for your input 
-JW


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## Harold_V (Oct 27, 2008)

misnomer said:


> The fire assay results work out to about 12 oz gold and 4 oz PGM in 4kg of concentrate.


*
Red flag time!*

You're suggesting to us that the mine extracted silver, which has a relatively low value, and discarded gold that would have been obvious? That doesn't bother you?

Hang on to your wallet. Something is _very wrong _with your information. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Oct 27, 2008)

> *
> Red flag time!*
> 
> You're suggesting to us that the mine extracted silver, which has a relatively low value, and discarded gold that would have been obvious? That doesn't bother you?
> ...



My understanding (which i freely admit is limited with reguard to mining history) is they did get a lot of the gold (the dimension gold) out with the silver. But their focus was on the silver because there was such large amount of silver there was far more value there. It did cause me to question it but in talking to a number of people who are familiar with mining they thought it was a little surprising but still plausable. I don't know how many tons he processes to make 1kg of the concentrate. 

If I took a kg of concentrate is there a "quick & dirty" way to assertain the credibility of the information? Maybe wash a small sample with HCL and then add some 3:1 AR (full strength?) to dissolve and precip with a piece of zinc and weigh result? would that give me a rough idea as to the concentration? or would there be problems with relating the resulting weight? Or are you suggesting this sample he gave has been seeded? He has over 200 kg of the stuff waiting to be refined. I am not giving him any money directly, the only thing I would provide is in the concentrates that he has. I guess, I don't see what the benefit would be to giving me false information? I definately don't have deep pockets.


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## Anonymous (Oct 27, 2008)

All the warnings are there, promiss of great profit, little cost, and
I think if 12 oz gold and 4 oz PGM per 2 kg, and they have 200 kg
seems to be a fortune that any company with the means would have 
gobbled up immediately.

Also, why would they not just have and assay done and sell the pile, 
get one big check.

Sorry to be such a downer, but if I had them concentrates, why would I need you? that is what I would ask.

Jim


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## Lou (Oct 27, 2008)

Insist on an independent fire assay that they pay for and YOU sample the material. That simple. They refuse, then don't bother with them; I wouldn't.

As it stands now, something smells rotten in Denmark (no offense to Peter!).
Lou


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## Anonymous (Oct 28, 2008)

I told him I needed a complete assay that told me all the elements in the sample, if I am to be performorming chemistry on them. He said he said it was expensive but if I need it he would have it done. He spoke of a dozen elements... is that enough? Will it include arsenic, tellurium, lead, and all the other nasties that end up in the effluent. and any other associated with concentrate that interfer with extraction? How many metals should be assayed for? Is there a term I should use to refer to it? They are also throwing a few grand into my budget to get started with. 

Thanks for the input from everyone,
JW


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## Harold_V (Oct 28, 2008)

misnomer said:


> My understanding (which i freely admit is limited with reguard to mining history) is they did get a lot of the gold (the dimension gold) out with the silver. But their focus was on the silver because there was such large amount of silver there was far more value there.


Do you have any knowledge of the method that was used to extract the values from the original ore? 



> I don't know how many tons he processes to make 1kg of the concentrate.


Bingo!

If it requires a huge multitude of tons, the numbers may or may not be impressive. 

Don't misunderstand. Gold ore that exceeds one ounce per ton is considered high grade ore. Your numbers are exceptionally high, and certainly worth processing. I'm just trying hard to understand how you can access such concentrates. 

I don't mean that the way it may sound. It has nothing to do with my opinion of you, just my suspicion of a crook trying to take advantage of an unsuspecting victim. 

I am one of the greatest skeptics you will encounter when you start talking about platinum and palladium. It is not found in great quantity in the US, although it is found. I would expect a much lower ratio of those metals to gold. 

I'd like you to consider one thing right now. Many mines, today, are operating gold ores that contain as little as .1 troy ounce/ton, and they are making a profit. Leaving behind gold that is likely in far greater concentration would not make sense. The sole exception might be if they were processing a high grade ore and took only that which came easy. It's not uncommon for mine dumps to be worked at a profit, especially today, with improved technology and material handling capabilities. 



> If I took a kg of concentrate is there a "quick & dirty" way to assertain the credibility of the information?


Before you get too involved in trying to determine the content, I'd suggest you explore the possibility that you are being duped. There is much more you need to know. When you are convinced that everything is as represented, then have a fire assay performed. Do not trust one from your source----seek an independent assayer that has nothing to lose by being honest. 

Do not assume that because you are given a sample, that it is representative of the "mother load". Unless you can personally oversee the concentration process, and are assured that there is nothing going on, I strongly advise you do not get involved. You may be being promoted on a small level. Remember, it is known that thugs have killed a person for a few bucks. You need not be the wealthiest guy in town to be a target. 

Do try to keep one thing in mind. Money NEVER goes looking for people. People go looking for money. Anyone that owned concentrates like you described would have no trouble extracting the values without your help. Something stinks, I just don't know what it is..

We had another guy on the forum some time ago that had one of these exceptionally good deals. He fell silent almost immediately. That's usually the case, because they are being made a fool. 



> Maybe wash a small sample with HCL and then add some 3:1 AR (full strength?) to dissolve and precip with a piece of zinc and weigh result? would that give me a rough idea as to the concentration?


Not necessarily. A fire assay is the most reliable test you can perform. The logic being if it fire assays, it will also produce. 

The problem with processing ores with AR is that the ores themselves consume the acids----so you never know when to stop processing. You would likely achieve results of sorts, but they would be questionable. 



> are you suggesting this sample he gave has been seeded?


I do not wish to make any accusations, but seeding ores or concentrates is not new. 



> He has over 200 kg of the stuff waiting to be refined. I am not giving him any money directly, the only thing I would provide is in the concentrates that he has. I guess, I don't see what the benefit would be to giving me false information? I definately don't have deep pockets.


I'll let you answer that one. Consider that if what you proposed is correct, that 4 kg of concentrates contain 12 ounces of gold and 4 ounces of pt. group metals, this situation consists of no less than 600 troy ounces of gold, valued on today's market @ $436,000 alone, with no regard for the platinum metals. That doesn't bother you? He, she, or they, are smart enough to create the concentrates, but don't know what to do with them, so they are trying to involve a person that, judging from your questions, doesn't know a great deal about the recovery and refining of precious metals? Ever wonder why they haven't shipped the values to a recognized refiner? 

If you keep your eyes open long enough, this entire matter will come into sharp focus. You may not like what you see. Or---- I'm wrong. 

Harold


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## Harold_V (Oct 28, 2008)

misnomer said:


> I told him I needed a complete assay that told me all the elements in the sample, if I am to be performorming chemistry on them. He said he said it was expensive but if I need it he would have it done. He spoke of a dozen elements... is that enough? Will it include arsenic, tellurium, lead, and all the other nasties that end up in the effluent. and any other associated with concentrate that interfer with extraction? How many metals should be assayed for? Is there a term I should use to refer to it? They are also throwing a few grand into my budget to get started with.
> 
> Thanks for the input from everyone,
> JW




This is a no-brainer. 

Ask for an assay on gold and silver alone. If the gold is present in the numbers as represented, you don't need to know anything else right now. The cost of assays for the platinum group are very expensive, and should play no role in the decisions you must make. You can consider them a bonus, assuming things are as they have been represented. 

Be certain that you can associate the concentrate with tonnage from which it came. For that matter, it might we wise to pay for an assay on the source. Go to the site and select your own sample. Do not allow anyone to steer you to a particular place. 

Know that the concentrate may not lend itself to acid processing, and must be smelted. Don't worry about any of that until you know the truth. 

Harold


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## markqf1 (Oct 28, 2008)

Misnomer,
I'm certainly not very well qualified to give you any advice but, I would listen to these people who are and have. They are not easily fooled.
Also, keep in mind that rhodium values are not very well represented 
with a "standard fire assay". It takes inquartation for that.
I agree with Harold that you should stick to the gold numbers first and then concern yourself with the pgm's.

Mark


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