# Goran and Gold Wiki . . .



## cosmetal (May 31, 2018)

A special thanks to Goran for posting his GRF updates on the Gold Wiki website during the outage!

James


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## Shark (May 31, 2018)

I agree. Even the post on how to access the forum during the "drought" was helpful. It certainly curbed my withdrawal symptoms.


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## g_axelsson (May 31, 2018)

It was the least I could do.

If the forum hadn't come back I would have proposed to Noxx that we could give it an alternative domain name, forum.goldrefiningwiki.com, then I would have been able to add it to my DNS even if goldrefiningforum.com was blocked.

Now I came back home after a business trip and the forum came back up before I had time to propose anything.

If anything would happen to the forum in the future I will post updates on the wiki.

Göran


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## galenrog (May 31, 2018)

I believe Göran deserves a serving of his favorite beverage. If I can manage a few days either side of my nephews wedding in September, I will offer to make the drive from Copenhagen to pour.


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## nickvc (Jun 1, 2018)

I think the one thing that does need to be addressed is making sure the contents of the forum are safe for future use,we have thousands and thousands of hours of fantastic reading and knowledge that needs to be protected, no where else is there this much true and accurate data on recovery and refining of precious metals.


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## cuchugold (Jun 1, 2018)

A weekly backup to a drive in the cloud sounds simple. I don't know the exact procedure and costs though.


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## anachronism (Jun 1, 2018)

nickvc said:


> I think the one thing that does need to be addressed is making sure the contents of the forum are safe for future use,we have thousands and thousands of hours of fantastic reading and knowledge that needs to be protected, no where else is there this much true and accurate data on recovery and refining of precious metals.




I second this. The thought of the knowledge here being lost to time is staggeringly horrible. Also there needs to be a second person with the ability to deal with issues like the one we just had because there's just too much risk it all depending upon one person. 

It would be good if Noxx could pick one other person to be entrusted with the site core details and the hosting and financial data so that in the event of anything untowards happening this doesn't happen again.

I know various people offered to pay if there was a financial problem, 4metals included, however it's the admin side that needs some backup.

Jon


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## snoman701 (Jun 5, 2018)

anachronism said:


> nickvc said:
> 
> 
> > I think the one thing that does need to be addressed is making sure the contents of the forum are safe for future use,we have thousands and thousands of hours of fantastic reading and knowledge that needs to be protected, no where else is there this much true and accurate data on recovery and refining of precious metals.
> ...


Can the forum be put on cd or jump drive and sold? As a fundraiser for the forum.

This has been done on some other forums I'm on, then other ones where it has been suggested cite problems with copyright law. 

I didn't realize we could get in the back way, I was sorta lost without it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jimdoc (Jun 5, 2018)

I had tried to copy the site to save a few years back when I had DSL and it would have taken a very long time. Don't know how long it would take now with FIOS.

This is what I tried;
https://www.httrack.com/


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 6, 2018)

There are a few tools to copy whole sites, but I'm not sure how it is legally.
What would be a possible way to do it, could be to make a shadow copy to another domain that is controlled by the forum/Noxx but without the traffic capabilities of the current forum.
Then one would have a working copy that should not cost much at all. 
If a "disaster" should happen sometime in the future, the admins should have the tools to get it up and running quick.


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## nickvc (Jun 6, 2018)

Well I think we have a fair few who are capable of advising how it could be done but the point is it has to be under the auspices of the moderators and Noxx preferably with the copies been in at least two safe hands and in seperate places for security, the thought that the whole forum could just vanish is too terrible to think about :shock:


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## anachronism (Jun 7, 2018)

nickvc said:


> Well I think we have a fair few who are capable of advising how it could be done but the point is it has to be under the auspices of the moderators and Noxx preferably with the copies been in at least two safe hands and in seperate places for security, the thought that the whole forum could just vanish is too terrible to think about :shock:



I can get the site copied tomorrow. That's not the problem, in fact I think I'll get it done because of the wealth of information here that personally I would hate to lose. This site is brilliant. My concern is that Noxx doesn't actually care that much. If he does then let's have it out in the open and work out a plan because as others have said, the info here is literally irreplaceable. 

I'm gonna put myself in the firing line here as I usually do but the owner of RPM was literally foaming at the mouth about GRF going down because he thought his forum would then be top dog. 99% of the worthwhile info on his site is from GRF members so he needs to re-evaluate that position. 

So, the owner of this site and his moderating team need to put together and present a plan that prevents this ever happening again because without this site we just get the dumbed down crap that's available elsewhere. 

Jeff (Geo) learned his stuff here. Just like I did. I owe this place and so does he. BIG time. Without GRF I would be nothing in the refining world, so maybe the time has come to stop getting arsey about things and remember our roots.


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## cosmetal (Jun 7, 2018)

anachronism said:


> nickvc said:
> 
> 
> > Well I think we have a fair few who are capable of advising how it could be done but the point is it has to be under the auspices of the moderators and Noxx preferably with the copies been in at least two safe hands and in seperate places for security, the thought that the whole forum could just vanish is too terrible to think about :shock:
> ...



I second Jon's missive.

As a relative noob, I really shudder at the possible loss of this "go to" site and it's helpful inhabitants along with its treasure trove of past knowledge that can be mined.

If it's an issue of money, I would be willing to entertain a monthly fee to support GRF.

James


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 7, 2018)

I truly hope members don't start trying to copy the entire site. Imagine the burden that will put on the servers, and the effect it will have on the rest of the members who are trying to get their daily fix. It could also cause Noxx some problems or additional cost with the web host.

The team is well aware of the value of the information here. We have a discussion going in the moderators forum about how to protect the information and how to prevent a similar occurrence in the future.

Noxx still cares about the forum. He devoted significant time in getting us back up and running, as well as updating some functions to get Geo back on.

Dave


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## anachronism (Jun 7, 2018)

Given the choice between losing the data on this forum through people not managing it properly and putting a bit of "strain on the servers" there's no competition. 

You cannot be passive about this Dave because there is too much at stake. Will it be sorted out and redundantly covered or not? Yes or no?


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 7, 2018)

Jon, if you have a problem with the way the forum is managed, or as you put it "through people not managing it properly", I suggest you take it up with Noxx. This is his forum to manage as he sees fit.

Dave


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## anachronism (Jun 8, 2018)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Jon, if you have a problem with the way the forum is managed, or as you put it "through people not managing it properly", I suggest you take it up with Noxx. This is his forum to manage as he sees fit.
> 
> Dave



That's a cop out Dave. Rather than engage and give a meaningful answer you've just instead taken a defensive position like a sulky child. I'm being pretty forthright I accept that but it's out of love for the forum nothing else. Can't you see beyond your personal issues with me and see that? Obviously not.

Things don't get done unless people take a stand and say what needs to be said in this world. So if there's any help or financial assistance required to ensure this doesn't happen again then I'm offering it. 

I'm sorry but I am cross that you've utterly misinterpreted what I was saying and your judgement there was clouded.

Regards

Jon


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 8, 2018)

Jon, I tried to answer your questions the best I could. I'll leave it at that. If you want to discuss it further, you can address your issues with another moderator or Noxx.

Dave


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## snoman701 (Jun 8, 2018)

I guess I don't understand what the big deal was. I have websites. I have four people trusted with the passwords should something happen to me. 

If this was an issue of finances, there are members and moderators that would have charged it immediately. 

All that needs to happen is have a set of passwords left with a trusted moderator so that should someone be out of town again, the other person can take care of any issues. 

I think Jon's concern is valid...and while we may not need to know the gritty details, it is fair to ask if their is now a plan in place to see that it doesn't happen again.

This site is great not because of any one person or it's ownership, but because of the information freely given by it's members. Those members deserve to know that their advice is going to continue to be available.


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## cosmetal (Jun 8, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> I guess I don't understand what the big deal was. I have websites. I have four people trusted with the passwords should something happen to me.
> 
> If this was an issue of finances, there are members and moderators that would have charged it immediately.
> 
> ...



Well stated! 

Let's do it! (please  ?)

James


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## Geo (Jun 8, 2018)

Jon, this makes me really sad and that's not like me. I thought we connected on facebook. I didn't let you into my group and let you stay so that you can use what is there to restart an old war and start slinging mud at someone that doesn't have the ability to defend themselves. I have to take exception to your statement about Ken. He was very concerned and expressed his concern and even posted the updates from Goran on the group so that members had some idea about what was happening. He never once expressed anything other than concern and even went so far as to express that losing such a huge database would be a tragedy. I can't quite understand your reasoning behind even posting something like that. I removed you from my group but I am willing to let you back in as soon as you post a retraction of your statement here. And even though Ken can't see it, I would also like an apology for this unfounded attack.


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## Geo (Jun 8, 2018)

An admin could have straightened this out in Noxx's absence. I know how his last attempt at having an admin worked out but that doesn't mean that something like that will happen again. Perhaps he should rethink his stance on having an active admin to handle situations such as this if it happens again. It's just a thought.


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## snoman701 (Jun 8, 2018)

Geo said:


> Jon, this makes me really sad and that's not like me. I thought we connected on facebook. I didn't let you into my group and let you stay so that you can use what is there to restart an old war and start slinging mud at someone that doesn't have the ability to defend themselves. I have to take exception to your statement about Ken. He was very concerned and expressed his concern and even posted the updates from Goran on the group so that members had some idea about what was happening. He never once expressed anything other than concern and even went so far as to express that losing such a huge database would be a tragedy. I can't quite understand your reasoning behind even posting something like that. I removed you from my group but I am willing to let you back in as soon as you post a retraction of your statement here. And even though Ken can't see it, I would also like an apology for this unfounded attack.



Please feel free to use the private message function that this forum offers to save the rest of us the drama.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Geo (Jun 8, 2018)

What? A public attack doesn't deserve a public response? I've said my piece. It was my group that was the source of this. I am publicly defending what was said on my group and nothing more. No name calling, no shouting or gnashing of teeth. A simple statement and a simple request. As far as I'm concerned, all said and done.


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## snoman701 (Jun 8, 2018)

Just drop all the drama....please.

My group your group his group. Do you know how stupid this whole thing seems to those of us who just want to talk about refining?

People were ready to hang cosmetal by his toes and all he did was quote Jon. Now jons getting crucified again, and all he was doing was making a point as to the importance of this site staying up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Geo (Jun 8, 2018)

I can do you one better. Let's move it completely off the forum back to the group and that way no one has to see any of it.


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## Geo (Jun 9, 2018)

After doing some checking, no one can copy the forum. You would have to log into the server to have access. It isn't like logging in and making an image of the whole forum. You can copy and paste from the page you are on but that's about it. The forum is not static, it is dynamic. That means that the pages only exist inside the server. You are only seeing an image of the page. PHP is that way. You will only be saving an image of an image. When you try to save it, it will not save as an image but as an address to the image. The only way to ensure that something like this never happens again is for Jean to establish an appointed payee for the forum to the server host. He will have to authorize a second party payee to make payments on behalf of the forum. It doesn't have to be an admin or a moderator or even a member for that matter. The second party payee will have to submit their credit card info into the host system just like he had to do. Anything short of that and nothing can be done without Jean doing it himself.

Edited for spelling


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## Rachello (Jun 9, 2018)

Static & Dynamic are two different platforms for cross-processing a user control system . I am not sure what you guys are arguing about but it is A load of bull. Whatever you are trying to achieve, I can give you the speculations on both if you need them. 

When a device is assigned a static IP address, the address does not change. Most devices use dynamic IP addresses, which are assigned by the network when they connect and change over time.

Most users don't need static IP addresses. Static IP addresses normally matter more when external devices or websites need to remember your IP address. One example is VPN or other remote access solutions that trust (whitelists) certain IPs for security purposes. A static IP address is not required if you are hosting a server, although it can simplify the setup process. Google Fiber provides two options:

Use advanced settings for your network to configure dynamic DNS. When your IP address changes, the DNS entry for your server is automatically updated with its new IP address, so outside users can use the same domain name. You can choose the Dynamic DNS provider and don't have to install additional software on your computer.

Use advanced settings to reserve an IP address for a device on your local network. Your device keeps the same IP address until you cancel the reservation or remove the device from your network, even if the device is disconnected. Please look to google for more help on this....

Rachel


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 9, 2018)

Hi Rachel.
I'm going to clarify some terms here so we all are on the same "page" 
Dynamic and static Ips and dynamic and static websites are two different beasts, so to speak.
The recent problem with the forum was somewhat linked to the first, but copying the entire site is linked to the latter, since we are only wieving server generated pages created upon request. 
Hence the term dynamic websites.


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## Geo (Jun 9, 2018)

I think we are talking about two different things. The IP address for the forum never changes unless the host changes it. It has nothing to do with your equipment but rather how PHP works. So when talking about static and dynamic when describing a web page goes something like this. A static web page doesn't change constantly. If you go to the page today and you go back sometime in the future, the page will be the same. As a visitor, you can't change anything on that web page without the password to the program files. The image you see and pages behind it can be copied on a mirror. (There are firewalls but the tighter the security, the slower the server runs. Thus the need for moderators.) It will be a picture of the pages and software can break it down into digital information and save it as an image. When you save or copy your hard drive to another drive, It doesn't copy the information and paste it on the other drive. The data would take up too much space. It creates a partition and then takes a picture of all the data on the old drive and saves the data as an image. It's a cloned image of the information on the old drive. A dynamic web page can be effected by outside influence to a certain degree but it is always reloading the image. If you come to the page today, and then some time in the future, the image will be different. It needs to reload constantly to relay fresh information. Each page is generated when someone asks for that page. The page doesn't even exist in the server, only the framework. When you close the window, that page is destroyed until you ask for it again and then it generates a new image. That's why no one can copy the forum. Only the page they are looking at exist. It can exist simultaneously for different people but it's still not the same page. It can be in any of the styles available and it will have your avatar and username. It's not only these obvious things different. Numbers will be different and other people's names that on that page. And that image is for you only. Once you close the page, that image is gone forever unless you screen shot it. If you ask for the same page, it generates a new page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHP


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 9, 2018)

Hi Geo.
I adressed this, direction Rachello beacause of her comment regarding dynamic IP/DNS.
To avoid distraction from what the forum is about I refrained from a more thorough description of the web dynamics. ASP, PHP and so on are good tools for server side processing of web content, but not very relevant for this forum.

What I find a bit disruptive, is when comments are misunderstood and people jump to the barricades, without even a second look to what the intensions of the poster was.
Everytime I have seen these scenarios unfold, I will claim it has been misunderstandings and or unfortunate use of words, and the original intent has been benign and informative.
Maybe I'm naive, but there has been no problem to interpret all/most of reasons behind theses skirmishes in a positive way. 
All though it has obviously been possible to do it the other way around too.

Comment to all:
Please folks, before you start hammering people for their intents or lack of such, read the "offensive" text a second and third time and see if it may be understood in a more positive way.
Heck, send a PM to make sure you have understood it the correct way before you get too fired up.

Please let us get back to what this forum is about


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## anachronism (Jun 9, 2018)

Geo said:


> Jon, this makes me really sad and that's not like me. I thought we connected on facebook. I didn't let you into my group and let you stay so that you can use what is there to restart an old war and start slinging mud at someone that doesn't have the ability to defend themselves. I have to take exception to your statement about Ken. He was very concerned and expressed his concern and even posted the updates from Goran on the group so that members had some idea about what was happening. He never once expressed anything other than concern and even went so far as to express that losing such a huge database would be a tragedy. I can't quite understand your reasoning behind even posting something like that. I removed you from my group but I am willing to let you back in as soon as you post a retraction of your statement here. And even though Ken can't see it, I would also like an apology for this unfounded attack.



Jeff it wasn't meant as a dig at Ken - it was meant as an illustration of what situation we would be in if the data on this forum disappeared. Maybe it was clumsily worded and I'll take the rap for that. Sorry.

I get passionate about this forum and the knowledge it contains. Maybe I should sleep on what I want to say more often than I do already. (Which is more than I used to do as a younger man.)


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## Geo (Jun 9, 2018)

I accept your apology. If you didn't get the invite, send a request and I will approve it.


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## Rachello (Jun 10, 2018)

Thank you for your explanation. I surfed over the drama & lost the point.

I still after reading & re-reading am not sure your goal...

Is it b/c Noxx will not let go of the rights to a trustee, or is it server platitude? 

What do you need?

What do you want to happen? 

There is always a solution; is the server not “strong” enough to handle the load? 

I’ve been getting pings for “website not secure”. Is this b/c your servers can not handle the load between security & requests? 


Let me know what server you are running on & specific problems like I.e. maintainability , redundancy, etc. 

I have a lot of servers & TB cards. I wouldn’t mind donating or at the very least; selling @ cost for a likely cause. 

Please give me in detail the servers you are runnnng on & how you want your system to function. There is a solution to every problem. 
Rachel


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## g_axelsson (Jun 10, 2018)

The servers are hosted by Maiahost. The problem we had wasn't with the hosting, it was the DNS provider that cut us out. So there wouldn't be any way an administrator of the forum could have fixed the problem.

To be honest, this is the first time I've heard of the DNS provider being the culprit when a forum goes down. Without going into further details on what happened, this was not an unpaid fee, that could usually be fixed even by an outsider.
The proper way of securing against further disruptions like this is to switch registrar. The current registrar wasn't very helpful and made the problem stay a lot longer until they released the domain.

But for everyone wondering and worrying, we are discussing the hosting, backup and domain registrar in the Moderator group, so even if nothing is showing outwards, we work behind the scene to secure the forum and make it more resilient in the future. But until everything is in place and is fixed we won't disclose any weaknesses publicly. There might be people that wants to hurt the forum reading the posts.
I know, security by obscurity isn't a good way, but it's better than exposing a weakness before a fix is in it's place.

And about copying the forum, the pages might be dynamically created but the information is static, the same text and pictures are shown on all devices (mostly true, don't know about tapatalk).
Copying the forum via a web crawler could lead to excessive strain on the server as well as increased bandwidth. Especially if several persons does it at the same time. As the forum is based on a database it is a lot more effectively to make a dump of the content instead of reading completed webpages.
I don't know exactly the payment plan for the forum, but increased bandwidth and workload could result in higher charges for Noxx.

Göran


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## Rachello (Sep 10, 2018)

Hey guys,

Have you thought about hosting your own server? Matt & I are in the middle of a nightmare deinstall. Big company purchased little company...all prior equipment must go. There is a gold-mine here in our resale value alone. Most of the cards are within 2-3 years old & holy-grail, top of the line. There is so much still in the box it's nuts! 

Might help with the whole control over everything issue...

We have taken out @ least 50, Terabyte back up cards. You can host, backup (preferably in different locations), change Registrars & life just might get a little peachy  

It's always a possibility...

Rachel


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