# gold or black copper(ll) oxide



## mark6822 (Jan 13, 2013)

I used 2 quarts hydrochloric acid 1 quart peroxde on 360 grams of fingers.After about 30 hours the gold foils were completely free of the boards.The salution had a deep emerald green color.I seperated the foils and desolved in hydrochloric acid and bleach.But i didn't get much gold powder back.So i figured that some of the gold must have gone in solution.I read about cementation on steves site.And i read hokes book too.I could read it a hundred more times and i still wont understand all of it.I'm more of a visual learner.So any way i put some copper into the solution to try to precipitate the rest of the gold.What precipitated was a black powder like substance.so i read some more and if i'm understanding this right this should be the gold.But then i read somemore and now i think this could also be black copper(II)oxide.So how do i know which one is precipitating from the salution.I read about different metals dropping at different times but like i said reading it and actualy seeing it are two different things for me.So any help here would be greatly appreciated.And please use words not na2h03 or whatever that is.It's hard enough to remeber everything else let alone whet chemicals all those letters and numbers go to.Thanks


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## butcher (Jan 13, 2013)

I use the things like H2O (water) when I write to help you learn them.

Just like when you used HCl (hydrochloric acid) and NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) (bleach) to dissolve your gold foils, to make AuCl3 (gold chloride solution), then you removed the Cl2 gas (chlorine gas) by using heat to drive off the chlorine gas, from the yellow gold chloride solution, settled to let insoluble material settle, decanted (carefully removed liquid from powder, by pouring off liquid or by a suction bulb or using a siphon hose), filtered the solution, and then used SMB (sodium metabisulfite) to precipitate your gold from solution as Au (gold metal) the brown powder.



> I separated the foils and dissolved in hydrochloric acid and bleach. Did you remove excess chlorine from solution? But I didn't get much gold powder back. So i figured that some of the gold must have gone in solution.



If you dissolved the gold in HCl/NaClO and used enough, for your gold in proper proportions you would have dissolved all of your gold, all of it should have gone into solution, then you needed to remove the chlorine gas you made by mixing these chemicals, using heat, filtered and precipitated the gold back out of solution using SMB, or some other chemical reagent like ferrous sulfate, which would cause a brown powder to form in solution which would settle to the bottom of your vessel (jar), this brown powder would be your gold metal.



> I read about cementation on Steve’s site. And I read Hokes book too. I could read it a hundred more times and I still won’t understand all of it. I'm more of a visual learner.



Either you did not explain the steps you did properly or you missed several important steps.
No reason to cement the gold on copper unless you had a problem with the steps above, or the solution was contaminated.
I think reading Hoke’s again and more practice will help you, (that is how I am learning even today, read Hokes over and practice what I learn)




> So any way I put some copper into the solution to try to precipitate the rest of the gold.




Well it looks like you visually learned how to cement your gold out of solution, as you noticed the black powder, this is your gold contaminated with copper.




> What precipitated was a black powder like substance. So I read some more and if I understand this right, this should be the gold. But then I read some more, and now I think this could also be black copper (II) oxide. So how do I know which one is precipitating from the solution?



Cementing your solution it is both gold and copper, if you would have removed the oxidizer (chlorine), you could have precipitated the Au (gold) from the solution more selectively (more gold less other metals) by using a reagent (chemical) like SMB (sodium metabisulfite).




> I read about different metals dropping at different times but like I said reading it and actually seeing it are two different things for me.




I would not worry about different metals dropping at different times in this batch, your gold and copper was cemented together.




> So any help here would be greatly appreciated. And please use words not na2h03 or whatever that is.



Well that would be Na2 (two sodium metal}, H (one hydrogen, making this slightly acidic), and O3 (three oxygen’s), not really anything I readily recognize, are you meaning Na2HSO4 (sodium bisulfate) or (sodium hydrogen sulfate), the salt we get when we make poor mans nitric acid, or the salt we can use to make our ferrous sulfate to precipitate gold from solution or test gold in solution with? 

Speaking of testing for gold in solution, I did not see anything in your process doing this, you say your a visual learner, yet you do not use your eyes, the stannous chloride test is your eyes when you work with gold dissolved into solutions, so open your eyes (your bottle of stannous chloride) so you can see what is going on, then you truly will be a visual learner, learning from what you can see, not a blind man trying to guess what is happening.




> It's hard enough to remember everything else let alone whet chemicals all those letters and numbers go to, Thanks



At this point you do not need to remember the chemical names, but keep reading them, use them when you do learn them, do not ask me to stop trying to teach you them, and then you will soon learn them also, a little at a time, and then you will also see how useful they can be for the things you wish to do or learn. When we learn an skill like electronics we also have to learn the language, the language we need to learn more in that skill, the more we study and read about what we are interested in the more will be able to speak that language, before long we do not even know we are speaking this new language, just like you (now) when you say the word precipitate, or cemented, these are words or the new language, you are beginning to speak, soon the words like NaCl (table salt) will also be familiar to you. 

I hope this helps you.

P.S. put your black powdered gold back into solution, remove the oxidizer, filter and precipitate it with the chemical reagent of your choice. (And use your eyes this time).
SnCl2 (your eyes) other wise known as (the stannous chloride test).

mark6822, I am having a little fun here, I hope you take it in good humor, keep reading, you have not read enough yet, and keep practicing you have not practiced enough yet, be patient, soon this will get easier, and then you will be on your way to learn in the next problem or process. All the while learning what the letters HNO3 mean.

Maybe some one else can help you with this also, maybe one of our new members who has been getting the hang of it.


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## srlaulis (Jan 13, 2013)

I doubt you read Hoke in it's entirety. If truly so, you need to re-read it again, in it's entirety. This time, do the familiarization exercises she instructs. Hoke wrote that book so that the basic layman could understand. If you don't know what HNO3 is, then you need to look it up. Read Hoke again, do the exercises she recommends, and study the forum.


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## butcher (Jan 13, 2013)

mark6822,

Do not post the same question several times, it will not get a better answer.

I deleted the other post on this same question.


srlaulis,

Now why couldnt I have just said that, instead of rambling on? Good answer, Thanks.


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## Woodworker1997 (Jan 13, 2013)

Butcher,

Don't think of it as rambling. I get alot of knowledge from your replies.

Thanks for taking the time to always explain in detail. Details matter, sometimes the right procedure gets lost in the details.

Derek.


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## srlaulis (Jan 13, 2013)

No worries, butcher. Thank you. You are very kind in always devoting your knowledge to new members that seek handouts. It irks me to see all these new members joining and claiming to have done their homework, yet seeking answers to questions they would otherwise know if they actually had done so. This is an art, to be treated as such like a devoted artist, perfecting their craft. All these newbs want knowledge handouts with get rich quick results


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## mark6822 (Jan 14, 2013)

thank you for patience and understanding.your answere was very precise and informative.the way you explained it i guess i did miss a couple of stepps.i will try again.I will continue to read and hopefully learn something from my mistakes.And here is a tip for some of the other members when your a noob as i am to this. giving smart axxxx answers like "why dont you go and read hokes book before you ask a question here" isn't exactly helpful.It makes some people not want to come back and ask any questions at all.And when your working with dangerous chemicals asking questions and getting a strait answere is a must.And i dont think you want somebody to get hurt because they were to affraid to ask a question.Asking questions is apart of learning too.

This word was changed due to the rules of the forum, Read and follow forum rules.
Butcher


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## butcher (Jan 14, 2013)

mark6822,
I agree with you to some extent, 

But if we do not tell people to read Hokes, or to go study, How will they learn, If we do not warn of the dangers, or speak up when they are doing dangerous things, How will they see these dangers, If we do not tell them they must study to learn to be safe, will they just know, if we do not tell them they must study dealing with waste, how will they treat there waste so that they do not kill people?

This is complicated science we are dealing with, things are not as simple as the new member has in his mind it is, there is no way in H double LL that you can tell someone what they need to know, or how to recover or refine, or how to do it safely with writing answers to these questions.

Especially when most of the questions start with help me get out of a mess I made.

I read yesterday how to make aqua regia by mixing two deadly acids, I think I know what to do, I threw in a bunch of metals and other garbage circuit boards, and added this rock that looks like it may have gold, I do not know what it is, wow the fumes in my house were terrible smelling, till I opened the doors, I think, there is a ton of gold in my liquid, I may be able to get out, and just need a little help, I do not want to read or study, just tell me what I want to know, I added this other kemikle from Shur Cumpuny but did not see my gold where is it? Can I dump my Kimical waste in my neighbor’s back yard after you tell me how to get my gold? His well is 30 feet away and he has some black berry bushes I told him I could kill. And just one more question is gold associated with arsenic in rocks this ole man who I bought these rocks from said I could get it with my gold, what is arsenic is it valuable?

Mark, how do we get people to begin learning, without offending them? How do we impress the dangers involved, and get them to understand how complicated this science can be, How do we get them to read Hokes Book, and study, to learn about the dangers involved, How do we get them to learn to treat their waste, how do we do this without telling them to do what they need to do to learn?

I spend a lot of my time trying to convince people to begin learning, or teaching them how to get out of a mess, this gives me less time to study myself, or to help others, I try the best I can to explain things, there is no way I can tell them what they need to know, I am a busy Man who works for a living, many times I have helped members with many newby questions, spending countless hours after working all day, typing out and spell checking my answers, way into the morning knowing I will only get a few hours of sleep before I have to get up and go back to work, and then the member gets his few grams of gold and loses interest in refining and quits the forum, not really learning anything. Then another 30 members join with the same questions how do I get my gold I mixed the two deadly acids I saw a video...

Mark Help me to know how to help others understand what they need to study without hurting their pride or feelings.
Mark, you also need to read the forum rules, and follow them.
I would do this before you help me with my delima of how to help the new members here understand they need to study.


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## srlaulis (Jan 14, 2013)

There was nothing "smart azzz" about telling you to go read Hoke's book. That is critical when speaking of the safety of you and others around you. Furthermore, reading the book will teach you great knowledge that other members wont have to teach you themselves. When I said "read Hoke's book," that was advice coming from a member of this forum that knows the expectations of this forum and probably more about refining precious metals then you. Take the advise gratefully.

and read forum rules


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## srlaulis (Jan 14, 2013)

Sorry. Was only quoting him. I'll use place holders next time. Apologies butcher


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## mark6822 (Jan 14, 2013)

My apologies to you butcher and every one else involved.I do appreciate all the help from everybody.And i will keep reading the book.But it does get frustrating when you think you've done everything right and things don't turn out the way there supposed to.Well i guess I'll get back to it I'll let you know how things turn out.


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## Geo (Jan 14, 2013)

remember,if you are doing a process with AR,be SURE all the metal dissolves.if ALL the metal doesnt dissolve,gold will cement out on the base metal. if all the metal is dissolved into solution and you cant get gold to drop, test the solution (test any way) if gold is there and you cant get it to drop, there must be a reason.you learn by doing.MAKE the gold drop.experiment and find out what is stopping it.you can always cement gold out of solution with copper if all else fails.

copper oxide is easy to deal with.take all the precipitate and incinerate.hcl will remove the copper so fast you will think the solution was green when you poured it in. when in doubt,incinerate.Harold is a champion of incineration.incinerate when not in doubt as it helps in removing different oxides during the washes and rinses.


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## srlaulis (Jan 14, 2013)

Here is a link to Mr. Harold's incineration post.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1997


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## butcher (Jan 15, 2013)

The Ladies, and young gentlemen of our forum, thank you Two gentlemen.


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