# Melt Loss



## garywolch

Just started using Republic Metals. the first time I used them I sent 183.30 grams before melt after melt was183.00 was very happy with .30 loss. Just sent them 319.10 grams before melt after melt was 310.80 8.3 grams loss or a loss of 2.75 % . The reason they said was there was a piece that was not gold. Does that make sense. We are in the business of setting up business to buy gold from the public where they use the tri- electronics G-XL-18 to buy gold they file into before testing. They send us the gold and we re test. This lot I personally tested filing in deep in each piece before using the tester. There where only a trace of stones in the lot, Wouldn't there have to had been a lot of not gold for this to happen. I understand that they are one of the top 4 refiners. But this does not make sense to me. Could you guys let me know what you think, also if you have used the other top 3 and are happy with them, Please advise.


----------



## 4metals

It is easy enough to melt your own material before you send it, then you will know if there are stainless pieces or wires in there. A well melted bar will not have excessive melt losses unless something is going on. What type of rates are you being charged? A big refiner dealing with a small customer isn't always a good match. You could probably do better or at least as well with an intermediate refiner where you can develop a relationship.


----------



## garywolch

4metals said:


> It is easy enough to melt your own material before you send it, then you will know if there are stainless pieces or wires in there. A well melted bar will not have excessive melt losses unless something is going on. What type of rates are you being charged? A big refiner dealing with a small customer isn't always a good match. You could probably do better or at least as well with an intermediate refiner where you can develop a relationship.





Didn't want to get into melting. There paying 98.5 % no fees Thanks for your advice


----------



## samuel-a

garywolch said:


> Didn't want to get into melting. There paying 98.5 % no fees Thanks for your advice



Pouring doré bars is the best favor you can do for your self.

With the cost of about half an ounce you can buy small (1-2Kg) electric furnace, graphite crucibles and some cast iron molds.
Sample the alloy and assay with third party or yourself.

Taking this extra step will save you a lot of grief when dealing with a refiner. They may be right, on the other hand they maybe cheating you.
I, pesonally don't like to walk in blind to any deal. Without prive assay, you are blind.


----------



## 4metals

I've come to the conclusion that guys that buy scrap from the public work on a rather large margin. Large enough that adding the hassle of melting and assay isn't worth another few percent. 

I'm growing tired of preaching how to know what your scrap is worth, some guys are just happy to get paid and move on. I've never been in that position so it seems alien to me.


----------



## garywolch

4metals said:


> I've come to the conclusion that guys that buy scrap from the public work on a rather large margin. Large enough that adding the hassle of melting and assay isn't worth another few percent.
> 
> I'm growing tired of preaching how to know what your scrap is worth, some guys are just happy to get paid and move on. I've never been in that position so it seems alien to me.




If your replying to my post I am not buying from the public. If your tired of giving advice then simply don't


----------



## garywolch

samuel-a said:


> garywolch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't want to get into melting. There paying 98.5 % no fees Thanks for your advice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pouring doré bars is the best favor you can do for your self.
> 
> With the cost of about half an ounce you can buy small (1-2Kg) electric furnace, graphite crucibles and some cast iron molds.
> Sample the alloy and assay with third party or yourself.
> 
> Taking this extra step will save you a lot of grief when dealing with a refiner. They may be right, on the other hand they maybe cheating you.
> I, pesonally don't like to walk in blind to any deal. Without prive assay, you are blind.
Click to expand...


Thanks I guess I will have to look into doing that, Thanks for your help


----------



## patnor1011

garywolch said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that guys that buy scrap from the public work on a rather large margin. Large enough that adding the hassle of melting and assay isn't worth another few percent.
> 
> I'm growing tired of preaching how to know what your scrap is worth, some guys are just happy to get paid and move on. I've never been in that position so it seems alien to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your replying to my post I am not buying from the public. If your tired of giving advice then simply don't
Click to expand...


Garry, 
You you joined 8 months ago. By going through forum since you joined you would have answers to your questions. You only come here to solve your problems and the only thing you done is that you posted the same thing in three places.


----------



## nickvc

garywolch said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that guys that buy scrap from the public work on a rather large margin. Large enough that adding the hassle of melting and assay isn't worth another few percent.
> 
> I'm growing tired of preaching how to know what your scrap is worth, some guys are just happy to get paid and move on. I've never been in that position so it seems alien to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your replying to my post I am not buying from the public. If your tired of giving advice then simply don't
Click to expand...


Gary you were given the best advice early on,melt and take samples yourself, if you can't be bothered then it's pointless to ask for any further advice as no matter what any one tells you none of us were there when your gold was melted or weighed, so we will all be guessing or assuming the refiner robbed you which might not be the case.


----------



## Oz

Gary, 

This forum’s primary purpose is teaching the art of precious metals refining in a safe and ethical manner so members can refine their scrap to a .999 state with confidence and repeatability. Beyond that we also discuss other aspects of the refining trade. 

What this forum is not about is giving Gary the answers to everything he expects to learn here exactly how he wishes to hear it. 

I have read this entire thread as well as all of the other posts you have made here on the forum. You are asking questions and hoping for answers and suggestions from the best this forum has to offer presumably. It seems much of the reason is because you wish to be paid top price for what you are selling and feel some refineries may not have paid you to your satisfaction. 

Not that you have been given any bad advice by others, but it is interesting to see you slight 4metals as you did, as he is probably the best individual on this forum to be able to teach you what you wish to learn in order to get fair settlements. 

Think about the fact that you have mentioned 2 refineries that you were at the minimum uncomfortable with in your dealings with them. How is it that you wish to determine if you have been treated fairly on a settlement by a refinery, if you yourself are unwilling to learn how to determine your own values before you ship your material? 

Now getting to brass tacks for a moment you said to 4metals; 



garywolch said:


> If your replying to my post I am not buying from the public. If your tired of giving advice then simply don't


This is where you put yourself in a rather compromising position. Let me explain. 

Look at all 4metals has given to this forum of his expertise at great expense of his time with no benefit to himself personally. Now tell me what you have given to this forum. Reverse the same question and ask yourself “what has 4metals asked for help with on this forum”, now what have you asked vs. given? 

In that light read again what 4metals wrote. 



4metals said:


> I've come to the conclusion that guys that buy scrap from the public work on a rather large margin. Large enough that adding the hassle of melting and assay isn't worth another few percent.
> 
> I'm growing tired of preaching how to know what your scrap is worth, some guys are just happy to get paid and move on. I've never been in that position so it seems alien to me.


 
Now you may not be buying from the public “personally”, but the margins 4metals was referring to is indicative of your business model “My company is NY Gold Refiners we set up check cashers around the country to add gold buying as a add on to there business”. 

It may indeed be in your best interest to get in and out quickly given the expected margins businesses of this type enjoy, as your time may be better spent finding more cash checking stores to bring online, than learning how to determine what you receive from your existing stores and receiving top dollar for it when you sell. 

At the end of the day, the reason you received such a detailed post from me is because I take great offense to you asking 4metals to not reply if he is tired of questions like yours. He was giving you sound advice in this thread as well as our other members. 

4metals is invaluable to this forum with the help he gives freely to others, and I refuse to let those like you discourage his help. You on the other hand have given nothing, only asked, so you would not be missed.


----------



## Harold_V

Oz said:


> 4metals is invaluable to this forum with the help he gives freely to others, and I refuse to let those like you discourage his help. You on the other hand have given nothing, only asked, so you would not be missed.


Thanks, Oz. 
May I point out to Gary, I take a very dim view of ANYONE that has less than complimentary things to say about moderators on this forum. To the man, each has given more than you can begin to imagine-----all with no hope of remuneration. I damned well expect you, and all others, to pay due respect to those of us that dedicate so much of our time here. To that end, should I see you make a comment such as you did, above, to another, that will be your last comment on this forum. Said another way, if you can't say something positive, say nothing at all.

Do not double (or triple) post on this board. Post your topic one time, and one time only. 

Harold


----------



## 4metals

> “My company is NY Gold Refiners we set up check cashers around the country to add gold buying as a add on to there business”.



Now I am truly amazed, I missed the thread where you said this but I did, just now, go to your website. http://www.nygoldrefiners.com/index.html

I know you must know this already because your website says you have 30 years experience doing this but let me point out a few things;

First off you don't have to melt it yourself, you are within a few blocks of at least 25 guys who can melt for you and at least 6 who can assay for you. (Ever heard of the diamond district)

Second, at an accountability of 98.5 you are paying 1.5% as a refining fee, no other charges so your bar at 310.8 after melt had (lets assume plumb 14, which I'm sure it wasn't) .5833*310.8 = 181 grams of fine gold. In troy ounces that's 5.82 ounces. So there profit was .015*5.82 = .087 ounces at $1525 = $132.67 For that they melted the bar, assayed the bar, refined the gold, sold gold to pay you, answered your questions and did all of the paperwork necessary for settlement. 

If they do all of that for $132.67 you have absolutely no complaints.

There is another option, Republic has an office with a melter on 45th street, you can go in and watch the melt, I mean after all they are making good margins on your work.


----------



## Juan Manuel Arcos Frank

I totally agree with OZ.

4 metals has provided a lot of useful knowledge and he does not deserve that kind of insults from Gary,respect is a rule to be observed in this forum.

To 4metals all my respect,gratitude and admiration.

Manuel


----------



## garywolch

4metals said:


> “My company is NY Gold Refiners we set up check cashers around the country to add gold buying as a add on to there business”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I am truly amazed, I missed the thread where you said this but I did, just now, go to your website. http://www.nygoldrefiners.com/index.html
> 
> I know you must know this already because your website says you have 30 years experience doing this but let me point out a few things;
> 
> First off you don't have to melt it yourself, you are within a few blocks of at least 25 guys who can melt for you and at least 6 who can assay for you. (Ever heard of the diamond district)
> 
> Second, at an accountability of 98.5 you are paying 1.5% as a refining fee, no other charges so your bar at 310.8 after melt had (lets assume plumb 14, which I'm sure it wasn't) .5833*310.8 = 181 grams of fine gold. In troy ounces that's 5.82 ounces. So there profit was .015*5.82 = .087 ounces at $1525 = $132.67 For that they melted the bar, assayed the bar, refined the gold, sold gold to pay you, answered your questions and did all of the paperwork necessary for settlement.
> 
> If they do all of that for $132.67 you have absolutely no complaints.
> 
> There is another option, Republic has an office with a melter on 45th street, you can go in and watch the melt, I mean after all they are making good margins on your work.
Click to expand...


4Metals: I do appreciate your advice relating to my questions. I have received my share of flak from the others on this board. It was not my intention to insult you. I apologize to you and anyone else I have offended.


----------



## bskhurdara

gold jewelry mfg, gold scraps refining process percentage loss in karat wise %.
for exm = 1kg pure gold loss in mfg in jewelry done in mix karat( 18k and low karate 14k,10k,9k). low karat 70 % mfg loss done and rest oss it is 18k. so what is percentage of recovery of gold from refining as per mfg and gold loss in kt. total = 5kg pg mfg done finals goods
and what criteria if this should be taken next time .


----------



## 4metals

> gold jewelry mfg, gold scraps refining process percentage loss in karat wise %.
> 
> for exm = 1kg pure gold loss in mfg in jewelry done in mix karat( 18k and low karate 14k,10k,9k). low karat 70 % mfg loss done and rest
> 
> loss it is 18k. so what is percentage of recovery of gold from refining as per mfg and gold loss in kt. total = 5kg pg mfg done finals goods
> 
> and what criteria if this should be taken next time .



Not totally sure what you are asking but I believe you are saying you had large losses in manufacturing karat jewelry and you want to know how to minimize those losses. Or are you asking why all of your losses were not recovered when you sent out the scraps for refining?


----------



## bskhurdara

yess. and percentage of not recover of gold as per kt wise


----------



## 4metals

> yess. and percentage of not recover of gold as per kt wise



Oh yes, now I get it! :shock: :shock: :shock: 

Anybody have a clue as to what the question is?


----------



## nickvc

4metals said:


> yess. and percentage of not recover of gold as per kt wise
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, now I get it! :shock: :shock: :shock:
> 
> Anybody have a clue as to what the question is?
Click to expand...



Not a clue unfortunately.

Not wanting to be rude but could whoever posted this get another person who speaks English to pose his questions for him, I'm sure we can help if we can understand what your asking.


----------



## 4metals

bsk,

From the size losses you are talking about you are a decent sized shop. If you can explain to us what types of dust collectors or bombing stations and wet sinks you have we can begin to understand how you collect the gold lost to the process. These machines are familiar to refiners because we see the contents of these devices as incoming material for refining routinely.

If we understand where you collect the gold we can help you gain insight into getting those values back to improve your profit margins. 

But so far we have little to advise you on.


----------

