# ball machine?



## big red 211 (Feb 19, 2010)

Could an old drier be used as a ball machine? I read somewere that they use 8lb balls in the real ones. But what about some smaller ones?


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## Gold Trail (Feb 19, 2010)

NO, well ok, for about an hour with 8lb balls


pardon my asking, and yes, i was a newbie once too, but did my homework before asking....

Where do you people come up with this stuff?

I was just reading the "help needed" threads and my eyes were about to pop outa my head....

Hoke \Hoke Hoke and if you dont like HOKE, then read Ammen, CW Ammen that is...........

Pardon my rambling, I am not singling you out by any means.

Ryan


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## leavemealone (Feb 19, 2010)

Bigred,I believe what ryan *MEANT* to say was.......most washer and dryer drums are made up of ceramic coated steel.As with any ceramic,it will crack and break into pieces if hit hard with 8 pound balls.I have to admit the shape of the drum is an excellent idea,but don't forget the vent holes in the back for the heat to enter,that would certainly allow powder to escape.
check out this bigred http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6467&start=0&hilit=ball+mill .


Ryan,
In big reds defense,hoke doesn't address ball mills in her book.I have read a lot of what ammen has written and have never seen it in any of his material either.
Johnny


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## jimdoc (Feb 19, 2010)

leavemealone said:


> Ryan,
> In big reds defense,hoke doesn't address ball mills in her book.I have read a lot of what ammen has written and have never seen it in any of his material either.
> Johnny



Ammen mentions it on page 12, and on the pages near are about other types of crushers.
Jim


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## leavemealone (Feb 19, 2010)

> I have read a lot of what ammen has written


Never said I had read it all.



> Ammen mentions it on page 12, and on the pages near are about other types of crushers.


Page 12? The number of his books that have been published are in teens.
Johnny


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 19, 2010)

big red 211 said:


> Could an old drier be used as a ball machine? I read somewere that they use 8lb balls in the real ones. But what about some smaller ones?



Actually there is a way this can be rigged to work, it will not work as good as a ball mill and it will take longer to crush the items you run thru it.

Use some 6" or 8" PVC pipe. Glue a cap on one end, glue a female adapter on the other end with a screw in plug. Use enough pieces to fill the inside of the drum so that there is limited bouncing of the pipe inside the drum. This will dampen the hammering effect on the drum. This allows you to process different lots of items at the same time.

Make sure you don't use too much material at one time to process. A dryer is rated for 30-40 lbs of clothes. If any more weight than what the unit is desighned for is used it will over load the motor causing it to over heat and a possible fire hazard.

You will also want to disconnect the heating element also.

Hope this helps.


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## Harold_V (Feb 19, 2010)

I give the idea of using anything aside from a ball mill for a ball mill a strong 0. 

If you've ever been around one that is operating properly, you'd understand that anything that has no mass simply isn't the right thing to use. My ball mill was miniature in the scheme of things, running, at the largest, only 2" balls. The drum was made of 3/8" wall pipe. What you would expect a flimsy sheet metal drum to do is beyond me. 

Speed for a ball mill is critical, as is the size of the balls as they relate to the feedstock. It's important that the charge be taken near the apex of the curve, then dropped. Otherwise, you don't crush, you simply abrade. That's just as hard on the mill as it is on the feedstock, and is dreadfully slow. 

One of the references you can peruse where ball mills are concerned is Rose's The Metallurgy of Gold. 

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 19, 2010)

I noted the draw backs of the weight limitation of the machine. I pointed out it would be slow. He will realize once the piping is in place that there will not be much left to as far as weight that you can put in it.

We can't discourage all options even if we know they will not work properly. You can tell them it won't work and they will still try it to prove you wrong. The option is there it is the users idea to determine if they can put it to use.

Remember the inventor of the light bulb. His staement when he finished was he didn't find one way to make a light bulb he found numerous ways it would not work before he found success.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

But I am 100% behind you on that post Harold.


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## big red 211 (Feb 20, 2010)

I figured I'd ask since you can get those for cheap or free some times. If I used some 2-3lb balls instead I didn't know if that would actually crush everything. While searching I found a post were a guy made a ball mill out of scrap stuff from a junk yard... I figured even if the drum wouldn't hold up then I could get something else to use as a drum that is about the same size and still use everything else from the drier. And at a transmission shop I used to work at, they had a tumbler for cleaning the metal plates inside transmissions. Something like that might work too? I just didn't know at what rpm the drum would need to turn for this. Heck, I know I can make a drum that can withstand an 8lb ball slamming against it. I'd just like to use stuff that is already assembled so I don't have a lot of fab time in making it.


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## Harold_V (Feb 20, 2010)

big red 211 said:


> I figured I'd ask since you can get those for cheap or free some times. If I used some 2-3lb balls instead I didn't know if that would actually crush everything. While searching I found a post were a guy made a ball mill out of scrap stuff from a junk yard... And at a transmission shop I used to work at, they had a tumbler for cleaning the metal plates inside transmissions. Something like that might work too?


If you've ever driven a vehicle that didn't have enough power to do the job you desire, maybe my comments will make sense. Sort of reminds me of my youth, when one buddy had a Willys that couldn't make it up the steep road leading to an old mine, where we used to go salvage copper. By sharp contrast, my other buddy had a LaSalle that walked up with no effort. 



> I'd just like to use stuff that is already assembled so I don't have a lot of fab time in making it.


All to often, a guy doesn't have time or inclination to do it right, but apparently has all the time in the world to do it over again and again. What I have stated is what works. What you're talking about would make great feed for a Red Green episode. 

What you project won't work, but it will present the illusion that it does. Let that by your guide. The entire point of my post is to forewarn you that you can come up with a myriad of things that will turn, and maybe even do some damage to the charge. If you expect anything good to come from your efforts, you're going to have to take a serious look at your project and do it right.



> I figured even if the drum wouldn't hold up then I could get something else to use as a drum that is about the same size and still use everything else from the drier.


What makes you think that it will hold up? A charge of balls is likely to weigh a few hundred pounds. 

Ball mills don't turn easily. Remember, you're lifting the weight constantly. The downward side is unloaded, and the upward side is lifting that which has been dropped. I'm having more than a little trouble with the idea that a few plastic bushings and rollers are going to stand up to even an hour of that kind of abuse, to say nothing of the drive system, which simply isn't built to deal with that kind of weight. 



> Heck, I know I can make a drum that can withstand an 8lb ball slamming against it.


How many times? It doesn't have to withstand the impact once or twice, it has to withstand the impact tens of thousands of times per hour. It has to do that without failing. What the hell good is a ball mill that can't take the work it's supposed to do? 



> I just didn't know at what rpm the drum would need to turn for this.


Did you notice my comment about Rose's book? Need I say more?

I'm not trying to wet on your charcoal, just trying to have you understand that a clothes dryer isn't a ball mill, nor will it ever be. 

Harold


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## Gold Trail (Feb 20, 2010)

Try this:
http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=25_35

I appolgize for my response, and not being more helpfull. Its been a long week. 

johnny, thanks for clearifing what i really ment to say.

I am curious as to what the pros on here would have to say about the ball mills that company sells. 
Ryan


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## 4metals (Feb 20, 2010)

Those ball mills from united nuclear are really for deburring and polishing not crushing. The difference is a ball mill picks up the balls and drops them down on the charge resulting in the energy of the weight of the falling balls transferring to the charge and breaking it up. 

These mills burnish not crush. If your idea of a ball mill was to grind and burnish the charge then a used washing machine may work for a while. But the lifting and impacting of the balls required in a ball mill, which for years I have referred to as crushers, rules out anything not structurally up to the job.


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## qst42know (Feb 20, 2010)

Dryers wont seal. If you were somehow able to turn some material into dust with a dryer it would scatter to the four winds. The door rides on a couple tabs of load bearing plastic and a band of felt. The back is thoroughly perforated and rides on a simple bearing. The fins are plastic and likely have holes under them as well. Dryers leak everywhere and any values you might liberate would be lost. Don't believe me pull the lid and observe all the lint.

If you want to salvage something for refining from a dryer go for the timer contacts and possibly a short lived blower for an acid fume hood.


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## butcher (Feb 20, 2010)

I made a small hammer mill, a Direct current motor, and bridge rectifyer to run off alternating 120 volts, dimmer speed control, 2 arm cam, that lifts the hammer rod, and drops hammer, a steel hammer head, pounds material to powder.

for rock I still use my cement mixer as a ball mill, large rocks crush smaller ones to powder, it requires repairs every so often, and I have no neighbors close by to be disturbed by the noise as it is loud. just been to occupied to start build on better ball mill.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 20, 2010)

butcher said:


> I made a small hammer mill, a Direct current motor, and bridge rectifyer to run off alternating 120 volts, dimmer speed control, 2 arm cam, that lifts the hammer rod, and drops hammer, a steel hammer head, pounds material to powder.



Could you post some pictures and details on this mill please.


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## butcher (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok how do i do pictures? copy paste? , dont have one of mine but IM lost with computers, AND I can't seem to paste a picture.

Well I gave it the wrong name 
I will try and get some pictures
It would be called a stamp mill
This will give you an idea of what I am talking about, only mine is a three foot tall version and only one stamp mini version




http://tunadog.com/Gold-Fever/Burro-Schmidt/lindas-holidays031.jpg


http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&q=gold+stamp+mill+cam&sa=N&start=20&ndsp=20


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## jimdoc (Feb 20, 2010)

Butcher,
You just click on browse next to filename under the upload attachment
section when you post. Just find where you have the image saved, such as my documents, or wherever you have it, on floppy or CD.
Click that and when it is in the box you upload the image. You can preview the post to make sure it worked.
Jim


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## butcher (Feb 20, 2010)

Jim thanks, I printed your instructions, when I get picture, I will get a computer guru, to show me what they mean, 

all that computer talk I get lost quick,

I have roamed the woods all my life and never have been lost,

but when I get on a computer I need a search and rescue team.


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## jimdoc (Feb 20, 2010)

There are how to upload pictures to Craigslist Ad videos on Youtube that will probably let you see how it is done easier than somebody trying to explain it. Ebay and other sites are basically the same also.
I was going to post a link to one but couldn't find a real good one.
Jim


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## Harold_V (Feb 23, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> We can't discourage all options even if we know they will not work properly. You can tell them it won't work and they will still try it to prove you wrong. The option is there it is the users idea to determine if they can put it to use.


If we "can't discourage all options", then our purpose in being here is lost. I have no intentions of encouraging a concept that is moronic----which this clearly is. 

I have a reputation to uphold. It's one of dispensing helpful insight, solving problems with which I am familiar, and, hopefully, keeping people that don't have enough sense to come in out of a bad storm, out of trouble. 

If readers here are looking for validation of stupid concepts, they've come to the wrong place. (Or could it be I have?) 

On this forum, you can learn to process just about anything you may encounter in the way of precious metals. Between a handful of individuals, it's pretty safe to say we've seen it all. Unless readers wish to lose that opportunity, it's a good idea for those that have no clue to pay attention to what they're told, not to endlessly second guess someone because they don't like the message they receive. There are times when someone has to tell you that you're simply wrong.

Harold


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 23, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > We can't discourage all options even if we know they will not work properly. You can tell them it won't work and they will still try it to prove you wrong. The option is there it is the users idea to determine if they can put it to use.
> ...



That is the path I shall follow then Harold. Thanks for you guidence.


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## Anonymous (Mar 31, 2010)

I have not tried anything yet, I am still gathering information. I did find information requiring the concentrate to be ground to 800 or 1000 mesh, 1 pound of balls should equal 1 pound of concentrate, and the diameter of the balls should not exceed 1 1/4 inches. Please correct me if this is not valid information.

haroldg


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## WIZZARD (Mar 31, 2010)

I'll jump in as this is my second posting and I know a little about ball mills. I have designed and made several over the years. 

You need to be specific in your goal. Taking boulders to pebbles to powder or circuit boards to a fine MESS may be several sizing steps. I've even use commercial garbage disposals hooked to a vacuum to reduce the right pre-sized product, dry, reduced to 1/8 x1/8 minus. You need to take safety to the maximum for this. This is another matter. 

I'm guessing the dryer size is what you had in mind? A cement mixer can be modified to do the trick. I use different sizes to reduce product to powder to digesting product in leach solutions. A 5 to 20 gallon plastic bucket can be centered using a fixture insert or off set to give more agitation, however plastic is only good for reducing P-gravel size to powder, or chemical digestion. By inserting a plastic bucket, steel drum, ceramic crock pot, properly, you can have different inserts and fixtures for different jobs. Cement mixers can run for hours, be modified for many tasks, however they have their limits. Remember the medium, the product and container must be compatible, as canon balls will make a mess out of your crock pot. Be warned, a ball mill running is very very LOUD!! Allow for fumes and use lids with vents. 

The medium can range from ball bearings to river rocks to marbles. Know the crushing medium used will break down and add to your product. Commercial ceramic medium are very hard (expensive) however contamination is kept to a minimum. 

FNG.........Forum New Guy!
WIZZARD


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