# SMB reaction in hcl/peroxide and/or hcl/cl



## crudpuppy (Oct 25, 2010)

Ok So I use teh hcl/peroxide and hcl/cl methods but was curious for the SMB in hcl/cl
1) what would be the result of using smb on hcl/perxide mix? would this drop all metals in that copper etc or would it even have a reaction? would it drop copper and leave me with reusable hcl/peroxide? 

2) If I do hcl/perxide and then hcl/cl on same materials basically adding clorox to hcl/perxide dissolving all metals(I assume) would smb then drop all metals? then I could have just metal powders to work with here? 

Sounds silly probably but the chemistry side is still very vague to me just know processes and wondering towards alterations even though I'm sure you guys would use another way if better everyone has their own way of doing things as long as results are same its all about preference...kinds like the fact hcl/p and hcl/cl arent even the only methods...hehe


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## martyn111 (Oct 25, 2010)

In answerng your first question, instead of using SMB in your acid / peroxide, if you just continue using your solution the copper which builds up in it will push out any gold which may have gone into solution. This way you can recycle your solution simply by pumping air through it using an aquarium air pump or you could just add fresh peroxide. If you were to add SMB your solution would b ruined and you would need to start again with fresh hcl and peroxide.
Your second question, if you were to add everything from the AP you will have defeated the object of using the AP, by producing a dirty solution containing all the different metals.
Instead,remove the gold foils from the AP and dissolve these in hcl/cl, this will result in a much cleaner solution from which to drop your gold using SMB.

I hope this comes across clearly and helps you


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## crudpuppy (Oct 25, 2010)

I've seen this about the air pump before and was curious does this cause the copper to drop out thus refreshing the solution or does it still retain the copper? If I air it while dissolving would I end up with more copper in my next step is the thing. I know it would speed the process simlar to crockpot method heat or air causing it to keep fresher but if the air is causing me to drop copper its dissolved doesnt seem right to use while in process but only after to refresh for another batch?

By the by my thought process was hcl/cl or whatever to dissolve all metals then smb then when I'm working with only metals revert to hcl/peroxide to clean out copper etc from it...is that not a valid approach and if not why? Seems it would work while it does cause me to do to hcl/cl processes twice once before and once after hcl/peroxide it also seems would be a quicker process since hcl/cl works quicker dissolving and hcl/peroxide wouldnt have to fight any thing from boards etc.


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## butcher (Oct 26, 2010)

I am having a hard time trying to understand what you are asking and your goal, the air or peroxide is a mild oxidizer, it will oxidize the copper, allowing it to easily make a chloride salt (copper II chloride) soluble in solution from the free HCl in this solution, hydrochloric acid without this oxidizer would not attack the copper much at all. 
Air or an oxidizer (H2O2) in normal portions will not cause the copper to precipitate, but if they are used up along with any free HCl the copper can precipitate as a white powder CuCl (copper I chloride), here is where adding Air or H2O2 and some new HCl will dissolve this white powder back to CuCl2 (copper II chloride) 
The lighter green solution
Steve's web site has an excellent document that will help you to understand this copper enchants.

You mention dissolving all metals in HCl/bleach, this would be a mistake, the base metals need eliminated as much as possible, otherwise you are just asking for more trouble.

It kind of sounds like you are looking for an easy way out of work that will only cause you more work and trouble,
these processes will work if followed, if you do not understand the chemistry spend your time learning that not trying to improve a process you do not understand.
My advice forget about trying to reinvent the wheel, study how the wheel was made and learn to make wheels the old fashion way, they have been round all this time and have been made this way by smarter men than us, and many through the years thinking they can make square wheels turn have wasted their time on that instead of learning to make wheels.
I do not mean any disrespect, and only like to see you post your gold buttons in the gallery.
Follow refining instructions for a process and you will see gold, wasting time on square wheels will loose gold and waste your time.


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## crudpuppy (Oct 26, 2010)

Ok so my oringal point aside... air bubbling basically just increases the power of the hcl/peroxide solution doesnt necessarily "rejuvenate" or "refresh" it as it can still ultimately only hold so much copper? And this is the dark dark color point it reaches right? At this point I know you can drop iron(I think it was iron) in it and it will drop copper but will also kill the solution to be unusuable...I did some searching on rejuvenation but couldnt find a direct answer to the question what is process to "reset" the hcl/peroxide(ap) to original state basically dropping its metal contents and have it be at a reusable state or is this even feasible?


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## qst42know (Oct 26, 2010)

Read the document for CuCl on lazersteve's website. 

That's the most detailed explanation of the process that I know of.


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## crudpuppy (Oct 27, 2010)

Bout a cheap dual ouput air pump at walmart really does seem to speed reaction and also running it in my use ap bucket to "refresh" it for further use so dual output works great one for my active run and one in the dump bucket...hehe


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