# How do I separate the Pt groups??



## NuggetHuntingFool (Jan 12, 2008)

Hello,


I'm starting to build a collection of cats, I'm curious how to separate the Pt groups so that I can build up supplies of each metal.


I should have about 100 cats by the end of the month and would love some help on this.

Thank you.


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## Froggy (Jan 13, 2008)

There are several options, I have been checking out the same, a few members here are trying out several systems, one is from action mining and the other is from a guy building his own, platinumill, I have talked to the platinumill guy and he is really busy processing himself, I think he is not too interested in selling his systems, he's making more processing ( makes since to me) he did say that I could come up for a few days and check out how ebverything works, at $7k for his system you can bet I would be all over that offer!!! check a few threads, we are waiting for results from our fellow members, , I hope they read this and give us an update soon,???? Buler,Buler??? Frog


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## markqf1 (Jan 14, 2008)

Yes there are alot of us waiting to here some results from the platinumill.
However, this "machine" does not seperate or refine the pgm's in any way. I have collected about 50lbs. of the honeycomb material and am anxious to try the system III from action mining when it arrives.
I may have gotten ahead of myself though. So far, I haven't found a buyer for the end product. Platinumills stated on a previous post that he had sold it(sludge,as he calls it) to northern refineries but, in a recent email to me they state that they do not accept the leach resins (sludge material,if you will). You here and read so much conflicting information about these converters , who knows what to believe? I decided to invest in the smallest system readily available and do some experiments for myself. I will keep you posted on any results... if there are any.
Sometimes the truth gets brutal. ($)ouch!


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## loco (Jan 14, 2008)

froggy I think you have been mislead bud. I just got off the phone with platinumill and the guy has given me the same story the last couple times I have talked to him. Which is he just sold his last machine to some guy who wouldn't wait. The kid at his auto repair garage/towing shop says they don't process at all. They just build and sell the machine. Robert told me he doesn't have time to process converters. That being said he must have a HUGE mechanic shop and stay busy to be making more $$ at that than what he could be making processing converters. and if that is the case good deal for him. I have also heard he's working on a deal with the discovery channel as he says they contacted him and want him to do a shoot. and he also says he's working on selling his machine rights and patent that is in the works to some larger refiner that doesn't want the machine out and about for fear the impact it could have. 

Bottom line is he won't be showing anyone the thing in action, and that isn't some opinion he told me that on the phone. he claims he'll offer a 2 hr lecture on his system but that's the best he'll do. never see it processing or see it run. just a question and answer time which is pretty much the same info as what's on his site. Also he did say that the machine was "like action minings system IV just more complete" due to his cart design and a few small other changes. 

Now wheather the thing is the next best thing since sliced bread for doing cats...well time will tell.


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## NuggetHuntingFool (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm not really talking about extracting all of the Pt groups.

I mean. How do I separate them once I have a Pt button??



Thanks


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 14, 2008)

Will the large cat processors, such as Techemet, in Pasadena,Texas, buy the cat material, if it is ground and blended (made homogenous)? I would think that, if one were set up to do this, the material could then be accurately sampled and sold by assay. If the terms and exchange with the buyer were tightly controlled, this would be the very best way of getting full value. 

One could invest several thousand dollars to set up for assaying or, have a good commercial assay done, for several hundred dollars. That's a pittance when you're talking tonnage.

I know that this is thinking big but, it's a big industry. Also, I've never been good at thinking small.

It took me 20 years to learn that it often is more profitable (and, quicker) to buy, prepare, sample, assay, and sell, than it is to refine. The trick is to know all the proper safeguards and how to make the buyer do it your way.


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## Irons (Jan 14, 2008)

Most of the people who made the big money were the ones selling the suppies, picks and shovels. It's the same here. I think some have labeled me a naysayer but listen to GSP. He's going to give you a straight answer because he's just trying to help. He has no financial axe to grind.

A good portion of the auto catalysts wind up at the smelter of the Stillwater Palladium mine where they are treated like ore and turned into concentrates that go to Heraeus or Matthey for refining.

If you want to do it yourself, go ahead but don't expect to make much in the way of profit.


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## markqf1 (Jan 14, 2008)

If you read some of the earlier posts you will see that there are alot of smart people here that know exactly how to do what you are asking.
It sounds like a complicated process that involves precipitating the different pgm's with different chemicals from a soultion of souped up acids called AR or something and turning them into powders or sponges.I'm sure there are a couple things I missed there so, please disregard this as factual.When I first started reading this forum, there were a lot less people here and information was alot more freely dispursed. I state this as my observation only.Maybe the commercial side of things is playing a role. As far as the platinumill is concerned... He must have something special in there that action mining's system does not. How else could he be obtaining patents on a machine that was already invented by them ,
supposedly from a 75 year old technique. Oh well, nothing wrong with taking the credit if somebody is willing to give it.
As to your question... maybe someone here will see a niche for him or herself with people like us to possibly make some $.

Mark


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## Froggy (Jan 14, 2008)

Funny,I just opened an account at Techemet, one of the largest refiners of cats on the planet. they will buy your cats in bulk (1000 min) and process them for you. fees are 8% for pt, 4% for palladium, 14% for the rhodium. I sold my cats today from a buyer that buys till he gets enough bulk to send them in this way, he paid very nice and in cash on the spot! He was only 8 miles from my house. Check out this article I found, he quotes a lincoln navagator has mucho PGM's ,, wonder what the smelters are really making? check this guy out http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?p=911536 ,, as far as the platinumill guy goes, he told me an entirely different story!! mabey he doesnt want anyone knowing he is processing for some reason, EPA, lrg company's trying to shut him down, who knows? We have a member her that has purchased his machine and I hope to hear from him soon. Frog


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## aflacglobal (Jan 14, 2008)

Email some of these people and ask for their opion :arrow: 

Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 00:16:55 -0400 
From: "robert diller" <platinumills> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert 
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To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] 

Subject: Platinumills for catalytic converters 


-- 

The Platinumill is $6400. A half down deposit is required in order to start processing your order. Your machine can be ready in 4-5 weeks after your initial deposit. 

The Platinumill is an electrolytic ion-exchange chemical leaching process. We did not invent this process. This same process has been used in the gold recovery industry for over 75 years. We just scaled it down and made it affordable. We also made it more specific for converter material, although this machine can be used in other metal recovery operations. 
The chemicals used are muriatic acid(hydrochloric),sulfuric acid is used in small amounts, and a powdered nitric acid substitute is used in small amounts also. These chemicals are easy to obtain. The main mixture is half water and half hydrochloric acid(muriatic). 
The machine is easy to operate. Once the chemicals and converter material is added, turn it on and let the machine do it's job. The machine is capable of doing up to 200 pounds of material in one batch. That is roughly 50 converters. One batch will take between 8-10 hours. 

There is no hazardous waste left over when done. The solution gets neutralized to pure water by simply adding sodium bicarbonate, which is easy to obtain also. The Platinumill extracts the PGMs(platinum,palladium,and rhodium) in an electrolytic chamber. The end product is a sludge type material. It is actually called leaching resins. The material will have to be sent to a refiner for further refining. You will usually get paid within 3-4 days, and get paid well. This is the absolutely best way to significantly increase your profits from your scrap converters. 
The Platinumill takes your converter material(honeycomb) and turns it into a more valuable, easier to transport product. After extracting the PGM's in the Platinumill, what you have is all three PGM's. This is the best possible way to maximise your profits with catalytic converters. With the Platinumilll we are eliminating all the middlemen. There is no other way to gain the most money from your converters. The testing has been done, and the results are in. On a converter to converter basis, no matter what grade, the profits increase. 

Let's say you have 1 ton of converter material. If you took that material to the refiner, they would charge you per pound, also charge refining fees, assay fees, treatment charges, brokering fees, inbound troy ounce weight fees, handling fees and other fees. Then about one month later you will finally get paid based on the PGM content of your converter material. You would also have to ship that one ton of material to the refinery, that alone can eat up your profits. 

Let's say you have one ton of converter material that you decided to run in the Platinumill. The Platinumill will take that ton of material and turn it into a smaller(handful) more valuable material that is very easy to transport anywhere and refiners will not charge you all those ridiculous fee's and charges. Your profits will increase dramatically. There is no other way available to get better profits from your converters 

The Platinumill runs on 110. Just plug it in. Turn it on and let the machine do it's job. Some pretreatment of the converter material is needed(decanning,roasting)
Feel free to email or call for any questions that you may have.
Thank you for your interest,
Robert

We are located in Toledo, Ohio. We are currently moving to a new shop here in toledo.
The machine comes with detailed instructions and tech support.
Standard maintenance applies with this machine, nothing special.
It will cost about $70 a batch in chemicals.
You should pull out al least 8-10 Troy ounces of PGM's per batch. I have pulled out as many as 19 ounces. Converter material has such a wide variety of PGM's , I cannot tell you wich cats to run. Run them all, the profits will increase no matter what. 
I can set up an appointment with you to visit us for a walk through. 
The resin is not pure, but that is fine, the refiners are very good at going after your PGM's
Recover the PGMs yourself!!!


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## markqf1 (Jan 14, 2008)

I noticed aflacglobal on the email list.
You tell us?


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## Lou (Jan 14, 2008)

When I see 19 ounces of PGMs coming from 50 catalytic converters, I see a problem.

If half of that were platinum, that would be about 15,000 dollars, from 50 converters, or 300 dollars in Pt per converter, about 6 grams. 
Alright, maybe if you have 19 of the best cats in existence.


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## Froggy (Jan 14, 2008)

Did we ever figure out if this system recovers the Rhodium? It was mentioned he sells back his liquids to the refiners and they get out the remaining 15%.... someone mentioned that this 15% represented some PGM's but all of the rhodium? That would suck if it did not get out the Rhodium, and you took a big hit for the refiners to process it. Aflacglobal, the way you posted this , it looks as though you are the seller!!!  There does seem to be alot of holes that need to be filled in before I would plunk down that kind of cash. I called today and someone that could barely speak (cold or throat problem) answered. Last time I called, things sounded crazy. I will shoot an email to those peeps' , I recognize a few of the emails from other sites and scrapdollars06 blog.... Frog


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## aflacglobal (Jan 14, 2008)

Froggy said:


> Aflacglobal, the way you posted this , it looks as though you are the seller!!!  Frog




:shock: :shock: :shock: 
Nope :!: :!: :!:


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## markqf1 (Jan 14, 2008)

Yea, they didn,t answer my last email and the website is incomplete.
19 oz from 50 cats... ... wow!
Now would I be greedy to hope for just 1/2 or maybe even on a large scale, 1/4 of that?


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 14, 2008)

Rhodium is a problem to dissolve. I think that, instead, in LazerSteve's studies, he went after the matrix, leaving the PGM's undissolved. I sort of like that approach. It eliminates the Rh dissolving problem.

There are several patents that grind the material and then separate the metals by specific gravity separating equipment. No chemicals or waste. Some patents claim 95% recovery, which I would be perfectly satisfied with. I like this approach - simple, clean, fast.

In any case, I think it would be foolish to try to refine the resulting mixtures of metals. I doubt that you could achieve the required purity. If you could blend and assay them, you are always in a position to sell them for near top dollar.

During my 40 years in PM, I spent as much time assaying, testing, and researching as I did refining. IMHO, sampling and assaying are where the money is made. Sampling and assaying have been grossly neglected on this forum - mainly because the interest and questions aren't there. Only about 1% of the posts have been in the sampling/assaying/testing category. It probably should be 20%.


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## aflacglobal (Jan 14, 2008)

note the comments :arrow: http://platinumills.com/14406/14401.html


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## lazersteve (Jan 14, 2008)

GSP said:


> Rhodium is a problem to dissolve. I think that, instead, in LazerSteve's studies, he went after the matrix, leaving the PGM's undissolved. I sort of like that approach. It eliminates the Rh dissolving problem.



Chris,

I have been working on a effective means to attack the substrate, but for my Pt and Pd DVD I'm still going with AR dissolution. I've found a Journal that mentioned dissolving the substarates, but I haven't had time to test any of the information. 

I decided to go with the acid methods to make my Platinum and Palladium DVD to demonstrate the fundamentals. I also have uncovered a newer method that will not be featured on my DVD, but will be posted as a video on my website in due time. The process doesn't use AR at all.

In my opinion, dissolving the substrate is definitely feasible as I've noticed, while making my PGM DVD, that the substrate partially dissolves when the cat is boiled in dilute AR . 

I've saved several types of cats to test and film the dissolving substrate methods at a later date.

Steve


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## markqf1 (Jan 14, 2008)

They must have just updated the comments.
Funny what a difference a day... or two can make.


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## Froggy (Jan 14, 2008)

Goldsilverpro (Chris?)has hit me with a 2x4,, I SEE THE LIGHT!! you are absolutly 220% correct, I will start looking more into this method, Anyone with a big Az' grinder for sale? Platnimill has alot of negative replys, alot of them are deleted, ya'll have become my favorite forum...... Me and my family sincerly thank you, Frog


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## hvyshakes1 (Jan 15, 2008)

Looks like I got shafted an extra 800 bucks is this really what he is now advertising to you guys?


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## Froggy (Jan 15, 2008)

His original price he posted here awhile back was around $4500, I think he saw action mining prices and went up......Btw,, now that you have one plz, post a few pics for us. I wonder what it takes$$ to slap one together? Someone else should start building these and have more complete instructions etc.. this guys seems like he is getting what he can as fast as he can, shame,shame, it wouldnt take much for him to hire someone to answer questions and handle customer support, GREED<GREED<GREED his orders will stop soon I'm sure..... Frog


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## loco (Jan 15, 2008)

also for just argument sake I have offered up to him the opportunity to go anywhere within say 1000 miles of my place to see one. his shop boy says he has a friend in KS and he said he has a guy in GA that he'll talk to. if this ever materializes I will keep everyone informed.


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## aflacglobal (Jan 15, 2008)

http://tinyurl.com/35uqr8


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## aflacglobal (Jan 20, 2008)

Froggy said:


> Platnimill has alot of negative replys, alot of them are deleted,



Now his page is completly gone. 
:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## AutocatalystNJ (Apr 30, 2013)

goldsilverpro said:


> Will the large cat processors, such as Techemet, in Pasadena,Texas, buy the cat material, if it is ground and blended (made homogenous)? I would think that, if one were set up to do this, the material could then be accurately sampled and sold by assay. If the terms and exchange with the buyer were tightly controlled, this would be the very best way of getting full value.
> 
> One could invest several thousand dollars to set up for assaying or, have a good commercial assay done, for several hundred dollars. That's a pittance when you're talking tonnage.
> 
> ...



Many of the large cat processors, such as the one mentioned above claim to make the material homogenous in a ball mill before sampling the material and furthering it into there in house assay lab if not an outside lab. Of course, none of these processors go out of there way to show you the mesh size or any other way to prove the material is homogenous. Does anyone on this forum know what the mesh size/particle size would have to be to make it completely homogenous and what type of machines would be needed?


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## autocatalyst (May 30, 2013)

goldsilverpro said:


> Will the large cat processors, such as Techemet, in Pasadena,Texas, buy the cat material, if it is ground and blended (made homogenous)? I would think that, if one were set up to do this, the material could then be accurately sampled and sold by assay. If the terms and exchange with the buyer were tightly controlled, this would be the very best way of getting full value.
> 
> One could invest several thousand dollars to set up for assaying or, have a good commercial assay done, for several hundred dollars. That's a pittance when you're talking tonnage.
> 
> ...



Do you think it is important to make the material homogenous before shipping it out to be sampled and assayed or do you think there equipment is capable of doing it accurately and efficiently?


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## autocatalyst (May 30, 2013)

aflacglobal said:


> Email some of these people and ask for their opion :arrow:
> 
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 00:16:55 -0400
> From: "robert diller" <platinumills> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
> ...


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## 4metals (Jun 2, 2013)

The problem with refining it yourself is you are left with the metal. You have to sell it and as it is impure you will not get the market price of fine metal. The key to making money in this business is knowing what you have and getting paid fairly. For some it's the fun of the chemistry, but as GSP wisely discovered himself, they ain't making money! (unless it is large scale)

Converters need to be de-canned and all of the volatiles have to be burnt off, a short time in an incinerator is one way. Then they need to be ball milled to about -80 mesh (that size gives a good assay) and sifted to remove the oversize. 

Now all cats are worth different amounts but refiners don't buy them that way, they care about the content of the entire batch. If you were a startup and buying individual converters with no history about each individual converters value, you could process individual converters in a small mill, sift it and assay the powder. As much as I love gravimetric chemistry this is where some instrumentation pays off, at least an AA but if you're really flush an ICP. Then you could generate your own pricing as to what you can pay for each type of converter. From what I gather there are some extensive lists of converter values out there these days so you could also skip this step and just pay on faith. But as far as refining them I would say not. Not on any kind of scale. 

I would however process all of my converters to a fine mesh powder before shipping. Every refiner will tell you that making powdered sweeps by burning crushing and sifting is a dirty dusty job requiring dust collectors and your shop still gets dirty (even with a dump housing on the mill) but every refiner will also tell you that whenever they do a complete housecleaning there is money in that dust collector and littered about your shop. You can have refiners do it for you but why give them a happy cleanup day? Plus it is not a quick thing to witness when it takes too long. Just blending is quicker. 

You can take all of your prepared material to a company like Deusmann and Hensel in New Jersey and they will sample it in front of you by putting all of your drums of crushed material into a double cone blender and producing a homogenous sample for you to have assayed, they also have a reserve umpire sample to settle disputes, and you can send your sample out for assay as well. A double cone blender does an excellent job at providing one homogeneous sample from multiple drums of varied powders, and to have your own double cone blender to sample every shipment is not cost effective. Deusmann has very attractive rates, cheaper than all of the expenses you will encounter doing the wet chemistry yourself. The catch is you have to go and witness, if you're not willing to do that, yeah stick with the chemistry!


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