# 20 pounds of Gold filled to refine



## kmann1969 (Nov 30, 2013)

Need some advice on the best way to refine alot of Gold filled, I have bought laser steves dvd and its great !! but i have 20-25 pounds of gold filled . My questions are

: what is the largest batch i can refine at a time ? 

: What equiptment should i have for larger batches? 

:has there been any updates as far as procedures to Laser Steves gold filled Dvd?

Thanks!!!! 

Kevin


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2013)

Hi Kevin

Thanks for the post. I'm not quite sure what gold filled means though Sir, could you clarify please?


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## kmann1969 (Nov 30, 2013)

Hello England!

Gold filled jewelery, 1/20 1/10 etc.. usally marked gf after the karat mark with a fraction . mostly what i have is pocket watch cases.Does that help??


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## jimdoc (Nov 30, 2013)

Study the forum, ask your questions in the search bar.
It has all been discussed before. Learn to recognize sarcasm.

Jim


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2013)

Sorry Jim, unfortunately I was having a complete blonde moment when I wrote my post. It wasn't sarcasm it was was idiocy on my part.


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## Palladium (Dec 2, 2013)

spaceships said:


> Sorry Jim, unfortunately I was having a complete blonde moment when I wrote my post. It wasn't sarcasm it was was idiocy on my part.



But a correct question! 

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you follow the dvd like you are suppose to those questions you are asking would be answered with experience on your part. What you are attempting to do is run before you have even learned to walk. The fact that you are already wanting to scale up and you don't even know the first thing about small scale reactions yet proves that. Slow down a little.


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## nickvc (Dec 2, 2013)

Palladium said:


> spaceships said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Jim, unfortunately I was having a complete blonde moment when I wrote my post. It wasn't sarcasm it was was idiocy on my part.
> ...




I think there is a little misunderstanding going on here, Spaceships was asking what gold filled was, we call it rolled gold on this side of the pond but your suggestion of slowing down is well waranted for the OP.


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## Harold_V (Dec 2, 2013)

How much you run at a time is dependent on the size of the vessel in which you will dissolve the base metal. 

For me, it's basic and elementary. Incinerate all of the gold filled material before doing anything. Once incinerated, put a modest amount in a vessel of your choosing (I NEVER endorse the use of plastic for this operation, although I am most likely in the minority) allowing for foaming. I ALWAYS used heat for dissolution, driving the solution to a low boil. You do that because as the free acid level drops, the dissolution takes place slower and slower, until it's difficult to know when it is still working. By heating, you can distinguish the end of each session by the lack of brown fumes. Therefore, I highly recommend a beaker, covered with an appropriate watch glass. Do not use an Erlenmeyer flask, as the narrow neck almost guarantees you'll experience a foam-over. 

Using dilute nitric, start dissolving the base metals. When the acid has done its work, add a little water to cool the solution and pour it off, allowing any of the floating particles to go with the solution. It should be poured to a vessel which allows for the solution to settle, as your objective is to capture all of the solids. You will repeat this action until you have dissolved all of the base metal. With the vessel now free of solution, you can repeat the process, adding more of the gold filled material as the previous material diminishes in volume. 

Once settled well, you can siphon off the solution, which should then be tested for silver (it's sure to contain some). You can recover the silver by cementation, or as silver chloride, using table salt or HCl. 

When all of your material has been digested, you should then gather all of the resulting "mud" for lack of a better description. It will be placed in a filter, for the remaining solution to be filtered away. You want to get it dry, so it can be incinerated. If you prefer to eliminate this step, there's no need for me to continue, as I do NOT recommend you process this type of material unless you do the following operation.

Once filtered, the dry cake should be incinerated. Incinerate until all traces of carbon have been burned. Once cool, screen the material, to find any large piece of gold which may be present. Everything should go through the screen, or it should be checked to determine if it's precious metal, or not. If you find pieces of gold, it should be inquarted for further processing. 

Back to the now screened solids. Run a magnet through the material, to remove any small bits of iron that may have survived the first dissolution. They should go to your stock pot, assuming you use scrap steel for recovery of values. 

The now incinerated and screened solids should go back to a beaker, where they will be washed at a boil in HCl. This is a very important process, as it will remove traces of tin that will complicate filtration of the resulting gold chloride. Once well washed and rinsed (use tap water, rinse, allow to settle, siphon, then repeat, leaving behind ANYTHING that is not liquid). When your rinse water is clear, you can now dissolve the values, which will have had the rinse water remolved by siphoning (it need not be fully removed) with the solvent of your choice. My choice was always AR---but you may prefer a different method. 

Once dissolved, the solution is no different form any other gold chloride solution, so treat it in a conventional manner. 

If you are familiar with processing, this is a good way to proceed. If you are NOT---I strongly recommend you do a few small bathes, following the advice I've tendered, so you become familiar with the processes involved. That way if you screw up (and you may), you won't lose much. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Dec 2, 2013)

nickvc said:


> I think there is a little misunderstanding going on here, Spaceships was asking what gold filled was, we call it rolled gold on this side of the pond but your suggestion of slowing down is well waranted for the OP.



Thanks Nick that's quite correct. I'm working 100% with IT/Comms equipment and my knowledge of jewelry product is sadly lacking. The American way of saying rolled gold completely foxed me, especially in the light of some of the first posts we've had on the forum lately!


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 2, 2013)

It's interesting that gold-filled is known as rolled gold on the other side of the pond. 

In the U.S., both terms are used but are quite distinct. While they _may_ be manufactured in the exact same way, the difference here is the amount of gold involved. To be called gold-filled, the material must be at least 1/20th gold alloy, with the remainder being the base metal. So if we have an item that has 1/20th of it's weight being 12K gold it can be called 1/20 12K gold-filled, or simply 12K gold-filled. If that same item were only 1/30th gold alloy, it would be rolled gold. 

Hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

Dave


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## nickvc (Dec 2, 2013)

This side of the water the phrase rolled gold applies to the way it is manufactured, basically you have a sheet of whatever karat gold which is heat bonded to the base metal billet and then rolled or drawn to the correct thickness. I can't recall seeing much below 1/20 th but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist here.


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## goldenchild (Dec 2, 2013)

1/40, 1/20 and 1/10 are the most common rolled/filled markings with 1/20 being the most common of the three. At least in the US it is. This type of scrap is great if you know what you're doing. I would take Harold's advice. Start slow and small.


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## kadriver (Dec 2, 2013)

Harold_V said:


> When all of your material has been digested, you should then gather all of the resulting "mud" for lack of a better description. It will be placed in a filter, for the remaining solution to be filtered away. You want to get it dry, so it can be incinerated. If you prefer to eliminate this step, there's no need for me to continue, as I do NOT recommend you process this type of material unless you do the following operation.
> 
> Once filtered, the dry cake should be incinerated. Incinerate until all traces of carbon have been burned. Once cool, screen the material, to find any large piece of gold which may be present. Everything should go through the screen, or it should be checked to determine if it's precious metal, or not. If you find pieces of gold, it should be inquarted for further processing.
> 
> ...



Hello, this step is so important and it is NOT included in lazersteve's DVD. If you don't incinerate then your final yield will suffer terribly. I once did a 500 gram batch of nice gold filled scrap and only got 7 grams of pure gold - I believe it was due to failure to incinerate and treat with hydrochloric acid as Harold points out above.

To incinerate, I place my filter with all the foils and "mud" in a pyroceram (Corning ware casserole dish). Then I use a regular propane torch with the flame set at about 2 inches long, very low, so as not to blow any of the incinerated material out of the Corning ware dish. 

I then heat everything to redness, being careful not to concentrate the heat too long on any one spot of the dish (they are not indestructible and I have had one chatter on me once). You can actually do this with the filter and material still wet, the flame will dry it out as you go, but go slowly and try to heat evenly.

Once all the filter is burned to a white ash and all the solids have been heated to redness, the then allow the dish to cool to near room temp, then add the HCL right in the dish. This makes it easier to transfer the HCL/incinerated mixture to a tall beaker for settling and washing.

Once you've done the final rinse, the incinerated solids can be further processed in the same beaker from that point on.

Once I started doing this, my yields when processing filled scrap have been very high, at least 2.3 grams per 100 grams of scrap, but sometimes up to 4 grams per 100 grams of scrap ( with gold filled jewelry).

Watch covers are usually very high in gold content, if not worn too badly.

Hope this helps.

kadriver


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## Palladium (Dec 2, 2013)

nickvc said:


> Palladium said:
> 
> 
> > spaceships said:
> ...



I understand what spaceships was saying, but at the same time their is actually some relevancy to his question. All gold filled is not created equal. You have many different ways to run different types of materials which can exist over several substrates and the type of materials you run will dictate any problems you might run into. Segregation is an important aspect when running GF. How many times have we heard " I put fingers, pins, cpu's, and whole boards together help me?" Same with GF! Harold is correct about the plastic buckets. In the past i have run GF in buckets and it can be a little difficult to get the fine powder or foils to come out. Don't get me wrong plastic will work, but for running GF your new favorite friend should be a 5 gal stainless pot. You can run 5 lbs in a 5 gallon pot perfectly taking into account solution size and room for expansion.


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## goldenchild (Dec 3, 2013)

kadriver said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > When all of your material has been digested, you should then gather all of the resulting "mud" for lack of a better description. It will be placed in a filter, for the remaining solution to be filtered away. You want to get it dry, so it can be incinerated. If you prefer to eliminate this step, there's no need for me to continue, as I do NOT recommend you process this type of material unless you do the following operation.
> ...



I do this process a little differently. When the GF has been digested by nitric to the point where no more digestion can occur (stainless) I simply filter all the liquid. I then take the filter and throw it right back in with the gold foils and treat with AR. The filter is destroyed along with any foil or stainless/stones/foils that go caught up in the filter. If you're careful there should be very little material in the filter. For me, it's because I get most of the organic garbage in the initial incineration. Then I filter the gold chloride and proceed as normal. I am currently working on about 2 kilos of GF watch band caps. I'll try to remember to take pictures of what I described here.


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## Harold_V (Dec 3, 2013)

goldenchild said:


> I do this process a little differently. When the GF has been digested by nitric to the point where no more digestion can occur (stainless) I simply filter all the liquid. I then take the filter and throw it right back in with the gold foils and treat with AR. The filter is destroyed along with any foil or stainless/stones/foils that go caught up in the filter. If you're careful there should be very little material in the filter. For me, it's because I get most of the organic garbage in the initial incineration. Then I filter the gold chloride and proceed as normal. I am currently working on about 2 kilos of GF watch band caps. I'll try to remember to take pictures of what I described here.


You've missed the point. 
The HCl wash is intended to improve filtration, which it does VERY well. If you eliminate that small step, you can spend countless hours filtering solutions that bear traces of tin. I struggled with that process for a long time before I started doing the HCl wash, after incineration. 

Note that I am not suggesting that your procedure doesn't work----I just didn't like the problems that were associated without the second incineration. 

I make mention because it's not uncommon to find that gold filled contains soft solder, so the idea that tin may be present is quite realistic. 

Harold


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## nickvc (Dec 3, 2013)

I'm with Harold on this, the manufacturers use all sorts of base metal alloys in gold filled or rolled gold depending on its final use, missing out on his advice can cause major filtering and value loss problems.
Harold has this right you encounter a mixed batch and your in major poo and theres nothing but hard long work to put things right... Been there done it


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## moose7802 (Dec 4, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend a stainless pot for GF over stainless, just saying. Again all comes down to the base metal used and knowing what is under your Au. I just acquired a 12 liter glass beaker that I can run almost 12# of cpus in, probably 10# of GF. 

Tyler


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 4, 2013)

Besides the big round bottom flasks and a heating mantle, about the biggest glass container you can heat in is a 4 liter beaker. That's OK for small amounts. With anything bigger, I am in total agreement with Ralph, stainless is absolutely the best way to go with nitric, hot or cold. I would pick a non-magnetic 300 series stainless that is fairy heavy, though. And, they don't break. With glass, there will eventually be a mishap. It might be 3 years from now, but eventually you will break it. Glass is hard to handle.


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## moose7802 (Dec 4, 2013)

I totally understand that, I have broken a couple already luckily when I was washing them. Just curious how you would run GF over stainless? 

Tyler


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 4, 2013)

moose7802 said:


> Just curious how you would do GF over stainless?
> 
> Tyler


Exactly the same as with glass.


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## moose7802 (Dec 4, 2013)

Wouldn't the hcl attack the stainless container? 

Tyler


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## kmann1969 (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks guys!! the information you have provided is great!! Thank you Harold for the process outline. i have just about everything i need to start processing. im still looking for a fume hood thats reasonable. I am going to start off with a 300 gram batch or two until i am efficient enough in the processes to move onto larger batches. I do have a question about the stainless steel pots, wont the process eat the stainless pot? and since i wouldn't have to worry about glass breaking can i crank the heat up higher to speed the process? I live in the country with no real close neighbors should i have a fume scrubber or will it dissipate enough to where not to worry about it.

Thanks again for all the info!! this forum is great. My wife is starting to call it the other women!!haha

Kevin


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 4, 2013)

moose7802 said:


> Wouldn't the hcl attack the stainless?
> 
> Tyler



I assumed we're talking about nitric only because that's what is used on gold-filled to leach out the base metals. Not HCl or AR. Anyhing with HCl in it you must use glass or plastic.


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## moose7802 (Dec 4, 2013)

I thought he said the GF he has is over stainless that is why I was saying not to use a stainless container and the reasons for my questions. I also have some GF I'm about to run that is Au over stainless. So I will be leaching the base metals with hcl first then rinse, incinerate, then AR. 

Tyler


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## Westerngs (Dec 4, 2013)

If you can expose the stainless under the GF, soaking it in HCl would probably work well. You would not need to dissolve all the stainless, only enough for the gold to flake off.


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## Palladium (Dec 4, 2013)

Run it in nitric and pick and wash the big pieces off. The smaller pieces will get digested in ar with some amount of work and knowledge. It's as simply as it sounds, but then again it's not! Hcl will not work for removal of base metals from gold filled. Hcl does not dissolve copper.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 4, 2013)

Gold-filled on stainless is a whole different deal. What are you running, watch bands?


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## moose7802 (Dec 4, 2013)

They are some type of spring. I have not received the material yet I will be getting it soon. I just know it's GF over stainless. But yes I do have some watch bands that are GF over stainless I'm going to run soon. 

Tyler


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## Harold_V (Dec 5, 2013)

For the record, in almost all cases, the white metal under gold on the tops of watch bands is not stainless. It will process perfectly well with dilute nitric. (Take note that I am speaking of watch bands that were available to me when I refined. Today they may be different. I don't know.) The bottoms of the bands are, in fact, stainless. 

If you're going to the trouble to strip the tops off, try a couple before jumping to conclusions. I highly recommend you incinerate first, however, as the only thing I ever processed that was dirtier than watch bands was the occasional set of gold rimmed glasses. Some appeared to have never been washed in their entire useful life. For me, these things went directly to incineration, after removing the glass (by breaking). Interesting to see metal frames supporting flame, albeit briefly. 

Long before I sold my refining business I had stopped dismantling watch bands, choosing to remove the gold in a cyanide cell. It was a slow process, but it ran without my attention, so that was fine with me. 

Harold


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## moose7802 (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks Harold, I actually did take the time to pluck the tops off and I know there stainless because I put them in Nitric with some other GF that I had and nothing happened to them. 

Tyler


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## niteliteone (Dec 5, 2013)

moose7802 said:


> Thanks Harold, I actually did take the time to pluck the tops off and I know there stainless because I put them in Nitric with some other GF that I had and nothing happened to them.
> 
> Tyler


Throw a few into some HCl and see what they do. I've got a pound or so to do myself


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## moose7802 (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks Tom. That's my plan as I have already put some to nitric with no luck so now they will go to hcl.

Tyler


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## Harold_V (Dec 6, 2013)

Ok, things aren't what they used to be, which was one of my fears. I'm way behind the curve on this stuff now, and it's becoming quite evident. 

One of the things you can do with excellent results is to process such material using AR. Yeah, I know---I speak out against that process regularly, but there's method to my madness. 

If you use too little AR, some of the base metal will get dissolved, along with the values. However, as the acid level declines, there will then take place cementation of the values on the remaining base metal, further dissolving what remains. If you control the process well, all of the values will get cemented, then you can decant the now barren solution (after allowing the values to settle well), then start again. You can eliminate the vast majority of the base metal this way, so you work with a much cleaner solution. I used that very process when I received a large volume of dental material that was mixed high temp alloy with platinum and palladium bearing material. Testing each piece wasn't in the cards, but this process worked very well in eliminating the unwanted high temp alloy.

Harold


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## moose7802 (Dec 6, 2013)

Awesome advice Harold! I really appreciate all the help and members of this forum that aren't afraid to indulge us with their years of knowledge. I am great full for the great people I have meet and some that I have only just come in contact with. Thanks again guys and of course Harold for keeping this thing a tight ship.

Tyler


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## kadriver (Jan 11, 2014)

Harold_V said:


> Ok, things aren't what they used to be, which was one of my fears. I'm way behind the curve on this stuff now, and it's becoming quite evident.
> 
> One of the things you can do with excellent results is to process such material using AR. Yeah, I know---I speak out against that process regularly, but there's method to my madness.
> 
> ...



I have a small batch of gold filled (GF) scrap jewelry that I am going to process, about 300 grams.

I start by cleaning mechanically; removing stones, steel springs and other non metal items with pliers and metal cutters.

I recently started to use a magnet to separate the magnetic into a separate pile from the non-magnetic GF scrap.

The non-magnetic scrap is usually watch cases, bangle bracelets and other jewelry items. They usually contain non-ferrous base metal such as brass or copper and these digest nicely in hot dilute nitric. Since some stainless is not magnetic, I check carefully to ensure that no stainless is added to the non-magnetic pile.

The magnetic GF scrap comes from watch band tops (the little decorative covers that hide the stainless steel springs and riggings of the watch band) and they are peeled off from the watch band one at a time. They frequently only have one side that is rolled gold. The other side is left bare of gold because it faces downward toward the stainless watch band. But there are also some GF jewelry pieces that have ferrous (iron) base metal.

As an experiment, I would like to try the hot AR treatment on the magnetic and stainless GF scrap.

Harold, In your writing above it says that you decant the barren solution and start again.

Before decanting the barren solution and if I controlled the reaction carefully, then I would have cemented gold with a small amount of undigested ferrous base metal under a barren solution.

I would then (after patiently waiting for everything to settle completely - probably overnight), decant the barren solution, test for values, then add to waste for treatment.

Then add fresh acids to the cemented gold and remaining ferrous base metal to form new AR and continue until everything in the container, the cemented gold and undigested ferrous base metal, are both completely in solution, filter, and precipitate - is this the correct procedure?

Thank you, kadriver


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## Harold_V (Jan 12, 2014)

kadriver said:


> Then add fresh acids to the cemented gold and remaining ferrous base metal to form new AR and continue until everything in the container, the cemented gold and undigested ferrous base metal, are both completely in solution, filter, and precipitate - is this the correct procedure?


Yes. If you use care, the last addition of AR will digest very little base metal, as the majority if that material will have been dissolved and removed in previous operations. It's highly unlikely you'd eliminate all, but simply by reducing the ratio of values to base metal makes this worth the effort. 

I almost never recommend the use of AR on base metals, but this is one case where, if used with wisdom, it can prove to be quite beneficial. 

Harold


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## Geo (Jan 12, 2014)

i processed a small batch of GF (mostly watches) with nitric first. the gold came off the bands and left clean shiny stainless steel untouched. there was one band that was unaffected by the nitric. the gold stayed in place and wasnt loosened. i had to digest the entire band, base metals and all. it had gold on all exposed surfaces and not just the caps. it was a very old ladies watch.


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## kadriver (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks, I've got a small batch of stainless and magnet GF scrap and I am going to try this. May be I'll post some photos for all to see.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Jan 14, 2014)

Geo said:


> i processed a small batch of GF (mostly watches) with nitric first. the gold came off the bands and left clean shiny stainless steel untouched. there was one band that was unaffected by the nitric. the gold stayed in place and wasnt loosened. i had to digest the entire band, base metals and all. it had gold on all exposed surfaces and not just the caps. it was a very old ladies watch.



I did a small batch of non-magnetic GF scrap. I sorted it carefully to ensure that the scrap had base metals that were brass or copper only with a thick layer of gold. I digested in dilute nitric acid.

Like Geo, I had two pieces in that non-magnetic batch were the base metal was some sort of non-magnet steel and was unaffected by the nitric. The gold foil did come off these two pieces and retained their original shape and I was able to match the gold foil to the undigested piece of steel. I picked out the two undigested non-magnetic steel pieces with tweezers.

Just goes to show; just because a piece of GF scrap is not magnetic does not guarantee that it is brass or copper base metal, could be non-magnetic steel! Another point is that the gold foils will, in some cases, come off the stainless base metal just like it did in my batch above and in Geo's batch.

Geo, did you use AR to digest the band with gold on the old style ladies watch?

kadriver


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