# Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?



## FrugalRefiner (Nov 3, 2014)

Many new members are frustrated when they first join this forum. They may have experience on other internet forums where it is common for members to ask simple questions and get quick answers. They join this forum in hopes of getting similar responses to their questions about refining.

These are some questions that have been asked:


"Here is my plea for help. I kept all the liquid, but how do I get the gold back?"
"I just have some CPUs I want to refine. Why won't someone just give me the best process to use?"
"How much 60% nitric per Oz of sterling silver.I cheched the site and saw no math on this.Just a simple answer would be great."
"I am not here with great expectations, just looking for a simple answer to a simple solution."
"How do I mix nitric acid with hydrocloric acid without killing myself or turning the house into a gas chamber?"
"why cant some just answer the question."

If you're new to the forum, you may feel like some of the members I've quoted above. You just have a little gold or silver you'd like to refine. You don't need someone to write a whole book for you and you don't want to spend years reading through the forum. You just need a quick outline of the best process to use for your material, like they show on YouTube. 

The reason no one here wants to give these quick answers is simple. Every process used in recovering and refining precious metals is dangerous. Following are a few accounts written by members of this forum. Following each quote is a link to the post they've come from. These are their real life experiences.



extremespeed said:


> I think you guys are looking at this form all the wrong way, if you didnt have the new guys asking questions wanting to learn there would be no forum or at least boring as ... This forum has changed at lot in the past 2 or 3 years. most people would be able to ask a question and it would be answered. Now its "use the search engine' or " did you read hokes book" now i have used the search engine and you know the answer i get. The same one "use the search engine" some people learn by helping others, so why cant some just answer the question. If you are getting tired of the same questions, then maybe you should let others answer refer them to some one on the forum. thats if you wanted to help the new guy. you see the problem is people want to do it them self and they see gold as easy money. and you guys not answering the questions buts them in harms way, being they don't want to read 350 pages with terms they know nothing about. so they just try doing it. In my case i read about *half* of hokes book, a lot in the forum, and went for it. my first step was making nitric acid with copper, ammonia nitrate, and hcl, did alot of research on that process alone. i felt confident enough to do it. How i was wrong, i tried it about 3 time one of the times i breathed in the gasses on accident didnt think nothing of it just how bad it smelled and kinda hurt my nose. from that point on i started losing my breath very easily. now i cant even walking up stairs with out stopping to breath. this happen 3 or 4 years ago. today i have PAH stage four i'm only 37 and doctors say i would be lucky to live another 5 years. I blame no one for my actions. i know there are a lot of guys or girls out there that are just like me. so maybe there should be a easy review. or a one on one, newbie and an official talking or guiding them cause now it like a door closed on you. If i was asked about the dangers of making nitric acid i would answer it 500 times a day cause i know i would save a lot of people, there lifes. another thing you can do is make this a closed group and you can have a bunch of old grumpy men saying nothing cause they read the book and this forum. its alright go ahead and remove my post or band me what ever. i just thought something should be said.


Mandatory reading material for new Help Needed Posters



ms32462 said:


> well i had my first and last accident with platinum.. wed last week i was checking the color when a big strong wind blew some vapors in my face just checking the color nothing else bought me to my knees then rushed to icu with burnt lungs and could not breath doc put me on striods and if that did not work ventulator was next but i did work... overnight at icu for observation and let go the next day i learned a value lesson dont matter what u are doing always use safety gear i will be back next week finishing up what i started and all safety gear is ready ya its my mistake and stupid on my part just wanted to share a little but i know 100% of people on hear are safe but please wear all gear for about 2 hrs i was fighting for my life thanks


WARNING!!



ReapHer_6 said:


> Ok, The first real issue I had was late, well into the AM and I heated up some AR (with a touch of sulfuric) to speed out the "storm". I never do what I did next, why I did it?? WTF knows...I reached over and picked up the 35% peroxide... well I never pour, I always use a new pipette... I really don't know what I was thinking to begin with....anyway I tilted the peroxide over the heated solution, and I bet you can guess what happened next, Your probably holding your breath right now shaking your head saying..oh no...well in an instant I was on the floor, and covered in hot AR. Now the really bright side. I read what to do in case acid got on me (from this forum). I have 2 five gallon buckets of clean water at either side of the bench along with 2 wide mouth 1 liter Wheaton’s full of lab grade baking soda . I poured the water over my arm and onto my head. Since I am new to this I use a full face PAPR setup. I then reached for the baking soda... I tell you this. Time never felt like that.. I don’t even remember the peroxide leaving the bottle, but not only did it (I would use explode but it didn’t actually) expand so violently It knocked me out of my chair but I found the peroxide bottle on the other side of the lab. Lastly I never, I mean never moved so quickly to the water and got wet... Had it not been for this forum I would have dumped the soda on me first. Anyway I came out of it without a scratch, or even a sign of a burn.


It's Time to go legit



Geo said:


> dont do any process that contains nitrates inside without a fume hood, even a well ventilated inside space. remember that NO respirator will filter nitrogen dioxide fumes. keep in mind as well that AP solution used inside a shed or garage will do terrible things to any metal within the enclosed space. if you dont have a fume hood, its advisable to do these processes outside.
> 
> i have COPD and am on every medicine made for the ailment and have never smoked a cigarette in my life. the one factor that i can think of that could have been the cause is, many years ago i made nitric acid for my dad and some friends that were prospectors on a daily basis for months at a time.i had no idea that i was killing myself and that the effects would cause the suffering i go through now just trying to breath.all the days of coughing up blood and feeling sick all the time, i had no idea it was because of what i was doing. this is why i push safety like i do.im not trying to frighten anyone but trying to inform them that this stuff can be done safely.just dont take it for granted that this stuff is not as harmful as people let on.


Refining gold from connector pins



Irons said:


> Arsine was the main culprit as well as AsCl3, and Amine based Arsenicals.. Any time volatile heavy metal compounds are created, they become a severe health hazard. Even electronic scrap contains some Arsenic because it's used as a dopant in semiconductors and Gallium Arsenide is a major component of LED's. Precipitating PMs in solutions that contain Arsenicals with Zinc, Aluminum and other base metals can and probably will generate Arsine (AsNH3). 135 PPM of Arsine in Air can kill you straight off and it's a bad way to go. About a year ago, it sent me to the Emergency Room. My urine looked like Tomato Juice and I knew I had been poisoned. My suspicions were right. You cannot believe how sick you can get until you've been poisoned by Arsenic. It's very painful. It will make you wish you were dead.


Thanks Harold



Tub Buster said:


> Last weeked (this is Wednesday), I picked up an interesting rock that I found at a park. It appeared to have a gossan-like iron oxide stain and metal inclusions. I crushed it up and applied hydrochloric acid. To my surprise, this produced a bright yellow liquid with a pungent odor. I filtered and put the liquid in a covered container with some iron, and the next day it was clear, and the substance had coated the iron. Additionally there was .6 gram of material of the base of the container.





> It is orpiment, arsenic ore. And I'm experiencing the classic "flu-like symptoms", especially a sore throat and cough.
> 
> I want to thank Irons and others for their warnings -- I did recognize it pretty fast, but not before inhaling enough of the gas to cause some problems. I'm waiting for results from some tests at this point.





> Well that was an impressive amount of damage for a few seconds' exposure. The doctors tell me the outer layer of the mucus membrane in my throat, and part of the bronchia and nasal passages were destroyed, which is what caused the flu symptoms. Apparently it takes about 3 weeks to grow a new layer, so for now the least bit of dust or allergen makes me cough. A HEPA air cleaner helps; air conditioners are troublesome.
> 
> A week after exposure, some of the epithelial cells on my eyes shedded off, and I got conjunctivitis. The infection spread to the other exposed tissue. It is responding well to antibiotics.


Metal Fume Fever



Irons said:


> ..and Ruthenium Tetroxide detonates at 109 Deg. C. I was near a fume hood when some Ruthenium Tetroxide we were distilling detonated. It wrecked the hood and contaminated the lab. It was a very expensive accident. That was my first introduction to Ruthenium poisoning.


Separation and Purification Au,Pt,Pd,Ag,Rh,Os,Ir,Ru



lazersteve said:


> 1) The bulk of the cloud remains over the bucket in a cone shape that is big at the top and the size of the mouth of the bucket at the bottom. Of course the wind and temperature is going to influence this. The cloud will stay low to the ground when it's colder. The main concentration of the fumes is in the red portion, but not all of the fumes are visible.
> 
> 2) I did the reaction outside on a average spring day. I held my breath the one time I got within 15 feet of the bucket when the cloud was present (to cover the bucket with an inverted plastic garbage can). I keep my face away from the bucket. I tried not to breath at all until I was at least 20 feet away. I wore gloves and tight goggles at all times.


BFRC precautions when using AR



lazersteve said:


> I've personnally processed a 10# batch of cpus and fingers using Poor Man's AR and the BFRC lasted no less than 3 hours. I did this outdoors and was very concerned for my pets and myself.


Nitrogen Dioxide MSDS



kadriver said:


> Each large container holds smaller pails containing honeycombs and beads that are leaching in diluted HCl and bleach.
> 
> By dilute HCl I mean 50% tap water and 50% HCl from lowes. HCl from Lowes is 31.45% concentration.
> 
> ...


HCl/Cl Leach of Honeycombs and Beads PHOTOS



goldsilverpro said:


> I should also mention the smell when using a sulfite to drop the gold - SMB, sodium sulfite, etc. After stirring well, when you have gold left in the solution, you will have little or no smell of sulfur dioxide (SO2). The sulfite chemical reacts with the acid and produces SO2 - actually, sulfurous acid, when in solution. When you have excess gold, less than enough sulfite will completely react with the gold and drop it and there will be no free SO2 and, therefore, no smell. When the gold is out, you will have free SO2 and a strong smell. I know I haven't explained this very well.
> 
> Warning: Do not stick your nose directly over the container to smell any chemical. Always keep your nose to the side and use your hand to slowly wave a little of the fumes to your nose. In the case of SO2, it doesn't take much to be able to smell it. I remember once opening an unmarked gallon jug full of an innocuous looking water-clear liquid and foolishly stuck my nose over the opening to smell it. It contained ammonium hydroxide and I was literally knocked to my knees. From that point, I ALWAYS used the hand wave method.


Stannous chloride Colors?


I hope these accounts will help you to understand some of the hazards involved in what we discuss on this forum. I sympathize with those who just want a quick answer to a simple question. As you study, you'll find that those who have taken the time to educate themselves will, indeed, get quick answers to quick questions. But no one on this forum wants to be responsible for helping a new member hurt themselves or others around them. Please, take your time and follow the advice of those who've come before you. Here's a good place to get started: Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum.

Dave

Edited to add a link to a post made by kadriver: Gold Miner Dies Among Chemicals.


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## mls26cwru (Nov 3, 2014)

GREAT POST!!!!!

This should be the first thing a new member is forced to read upon joining the fourm if you ask me!


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## kurtak (Nov 4, 2014)

AWESOME job once again Dave --- this is another one that needs to be made a sticky so that it is quick & easy to find & post as a link to new members such as I did here in this post :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=21414&p=221004#p221004

Kurt


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks guys. These posts are scattered all over the forum. I just brought some of them together and added a little emphasis. I appreciate the courage of the members who posted their experiences. They could have kept quiet about their accidents, but they related their experiences to warn others of the dangers. 

I hope others will add to this thread. It's one thing to tell new members that what we do is dangerous. It's another thing to provide real examples of just how quickly accidents can, and do, happen.

Kurt, you can just give them the link to the Tips post. I added a link to this post to the index of the Tips thread. Actually, I cross linked the two threads, so either one will work.

Dave


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## Lou (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks, Dave.

Many people get complacent about working with dangerous chemicals. In industry, we have to conduct process safety reviews and plan out A-Z what goes on with our science.


At a minimum, I think anyone who is undertaking something like this for the first time had better to be able to do the following:
1. *Do due diligence.* What can go wrong? Is there a safe, secure area to work? Consult a MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) for each chemical used;
2. *Do the math*. Write up the chemical equations, balanced with the right stoichiometries (if anyone needs help), that represent what is going on chemically;
3. *Be organized so you can learn.* Keep a lab notebook/written record of your notes and all of your work, also including synopsis of the hazards and what steps you plan to take to mitigate them; 
4. *Be responsible.* Don't mess with materials that generate wastes that can't be treated with simple neutralization. Keep wastes organized, dated, labeled and dispose of them responsibly.


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## Anonymous (Nov 4, 2014)

I tip my hat to you Dave. 'nuff said mate.


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## Cheis (Nov 8, 2014)

It is really great to see that you treat this Forum so seriously and as you have pointed out, this refining can be very damaging to one's health. I shall now do lots of study myself using your suggestions to do same .
Thanks Cheis


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your comments.



Lou said:


> At a minimum, I think anyone who is undertaking something like this for the first time had better to be able to do the following:
> 1. *Do due diligence.* What can go wrong? Is there a safe, secure area to work? Consult a MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) for each chemical used;


I'll take Lou's advice one step further. You should also be familiar with the MSDS for each chemical that may be produced in your reactions. For example, vinegar is pretty harmless, and solid, metallic copper isn't much of a threat, but if you combine the two you create copper acetate which is an irritant and a permeator, meaning it can be absorbed through intact skin.

Dave


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## MarcoP (Nov 9, 2014)

Why can't I ask a simple question and get a simple answer? Something I've gladly learned a couple of days after joining was that there is not a simple answer in chemistry specially when working with nocive acids and fumes ... and how nocives! Thank you all for this.


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## Irons (Nov 9, 2014)

Quoted two times. That must make me an expert. :mrgreen:


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## FrugalRefiner (Nov 9, 2014)

Irons said:


> Quoted two times. That must make me an expert. :mrgreen:


A sign of great experience, and the courage to share those experiences to help others! 8) 

Dave


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## solar_plasma (Nov 9, 2014)

There is a whole psychological science about experts and expert knowledge, - really interesting.

Only one point I remember: Expert knowledge makes you choose the correct decission in a new situation oftenly without knowing, why you made this decission. In a complex, mostly unconscious cognitive work our brain is comparing the new situation to former experiences and learned patterns within a part of a second.

I think we are mostly talking about "expert knowledge", while the word "expert" owns a social component: The expert is someone, others are listening to, before they make a decission.


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## solar_plasma (Nov 10, 2014)

> Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?



From my point of view:

You can, if you are asking a simple question to a simple subject. If the subject is complex, there can't be a simple answer, that is correct. Or, the more simple the answer is, the more wrong it will be.


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## Geo (Nov 10, 2014)

Dave, thank you for quoting me. I would love to think that I made a positive impact on someones well being. I'm not optimistic enough to hope that it will actually steer someone's actions to a safer coarse but one can always hope. I would like to be the poster child for "uneducated decisions that will alter your life".


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## Geo (Nov 10, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> > Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I love keeping things "simple stupid".


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## Palladium (Nov 10, 2014)

solar_plasma said:


> > Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




E=mc2 :mrgreen:


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## solar_plasma (Nov 10, 2014)

Palladium said:


> solar_plasma said:
> 
> 
> > > Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?
> ...




Nice example for a simplification, that works pretty well in its context. If you start to explain the context and the consequences, it will get complex very soon. Coming with an equally short world formula would be more impressive. :mrgreen:


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## geiser093 (Mar 3, 2015)

I am new here and am overwhelmed with material. It feels great. I now realize that what I thought would be a quick simple way to refine e-waste is going to become a new hobby. I estimate I have a long way to go remembering the chemistry and learning a bunch of things before I even think about starting. I look forward to refining some gold BUT more importantly I look forward to living to try a second batch.


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## Profikiskery (Mar 3, 2015)

That's an eye opener. Fantastic post!!


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## meatheadmerlin (Oct 19, 2015)

Great post!
Maybe this or something similar can be added to the Guided Tour links.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 19, 2015)

Instead of "Do you like precious metals?" or whatever is asked sometimes to check if someone is a bot, everyone should have to read one of the accidents instead. Then followed by the question: "Did you read this thread already? [link]". Not only noobs do well in reading them, also semi's and pro's benefit from remembering those or getting reminded of those from time to time.


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## jonrms (Oct 31, 2017)

Thank you for taking the time to post this. Not only has it given me a further insight to the dangers but also a better understanding of extra precautions and further safety gear to have with me. As a retired Paramedic I know all too well how to treat and manage acid burns etc. But as a a mature or newbee at gold refining I am grateful that this site and posts exists. Thank you.


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## nickvc (Oct 31, 2017)

A point to bear in mind is that it’s great to understand the danger of the chemical we are using or even the combination of chemicals but once you start dissolving metals there are further dangers that come with the metal salts themselves, one of the reasons we try to get newbies to read and study is that the dangers multiply very quickly once chemicals, metals, heat and fumes start to come together so understanding the process in advance helps to mitigate those risks. This is such a huge area of chemistry that no one person knows it all we all learn new things all the time so chill and enjoy the learning and studying, it will help keep you healthy and will eventually pay off if you keep recovering and refining precious metals.


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## jonrms (Nov 2, 2017)

nickvc said:


> A point to bear in mind is that it’s great to understand the danger of the chemical we are using or even the combination of chemicals but once you start dissolving metals there are further dangers that come with the metal salts themselves, one of the reasons we try to get newbies to read and study is that the dangers multiply very quickly once chemicals, metals, heat and fumes start to come together so understanding the process in advance helps to mitigate those risks. This is such a huge area of chemistry that no one person knows it all we all learn new things all the time so chill and enjoy the learning and studying, it will help keep you healthy and will eventually pay off if you keep recovering and refining precious metals.




Nick as a Retired Paramedic. I know the dangers of inhaling toxic gas and chemical burns have on someone. Trust me when I say a few made me ill. You have many dangers. 1 chemical storage. 2 mixing chemicals. 3 adding metals. 4 materials cleaning. 5 waste. 6 fire if smelting your own gold silver etc. So fumes and molten metal


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## Topher_osAUrus (Nov 2, 2017)

I think Nick was referring to the carcinogenic effect of many of the metal salts that we can be dealing with unwittingly. Primarily the platinum sisters. It doesnt take much of its vapor in the air and you are subjecting yourself to a fair bit of danger, that you may not even think is there in the sample being dissolved.

Dissolving the mixed metal in AR (or poorman ar) puts the metal salts in the air, just from the effervescence action of the acid at work.
-while that list you replied with does encompass a fair bit of the occupational safety hazards encountered, the devil truly is in the details with this one..


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## jonrms (Nov 2, 2017)

Noted. This is something I will ensure to take extra precautions of


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## nickvc (Dec 22, 2017)

gauridollar said:


> Hello, It's pretty obvious that most people ask questions on the Internet when they don't understand something and they want to know the answer.
> Thank you



The one problem with asking a simple question about recovery and refining is well covered by Frugal, there is never a simple answer due to the complexity of the chemicals and metals we deal with and the interactions of said chemicals and metals and all the dangers inherent with all of them let alone mixing them.

No one here is paid to help and holding someone’s hand all the way through takes a lot of time and even more patience which few members here have the time or patience to do, you want to learn recovery and refining then read and study here on the forum, it’s all here it just takes your time end effort to understand it, get stuck or can’t follow something then ask and if you are doing your part the answers will be forthcoming.


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## jimdoc (Dec 22, 2017)

gauridollar said:


> Hello, It's pretty obvious that most people ask questions on the Internet when they don't understand something and they want to know the answer.
> Thank you



The search box can answer your questions, and never complains. Try it.


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 12, 2018)

It's easy to answer a question on how to do something, step by step. However, many (if not most) of the questions involve how to fix something that the person has totally screwed up, usually, either because he listened to some fool on youtube or because when something didn't work, he started dumping in whatever chemicals happened to be laying around the house. Those questions are extremely annoying to me and I rarely answer them. I find that, often, I really could care less whether their problem gets solved or not. I usually tell the person how he should have done it to start with and how to best do it next time.

I've put a little time in thinking about some sort of questionnaire that a person would have to fill out for each question they ask. I have often written up a long answer to what I thought the person wanted or needed, only to find out that, because he was very lax in providing details, my answer had nothing to do with his true situation. Also, getting required info from some people is like pulling teeth and sometimes it takes several posts before enough info is gathered to answer the question. When consulting by the hour, this was often a problem. Sometimes, it could take 15-30 minutes just to squeeze out what info I needed. I would end up giving the person free added time because I felt bad about it. This time, I'm telling the people to provide info in great detail by email before I take them on. I will study their info at no cost, but when we start the clock, there will be little or no fudging. I am working on a questionnaire for the consulting.


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## ARMCO (Jan 13, 2018)

goldsilverpro said:


> It's easy to answer a question on how to do something, step by step. However, many (if not most) of the questions involve how to fix something that the person has totally screwed up, usually, either because he listened to some fool on youtube or because when something didn't work, he started dumping in whatever chemicals happened to be laying around the house. Those questions are extremely annoying to me and I rarely answer them. I find that, often, I really could care less whether their problem gets solved or not. I usually tell the person how he should have done it to start with and how to best do it next time.
> 
> I've put a little time in thinking about some sort of questionnaire that a person would have to fill out for each question they ask. I have often written up a long answer to what I thought the person wanted or needed, only to find out that, because he was very lax in providing details, my answer had nothing to do with his true situation. Also, getting required info from some people is like pulling teeth and sometimes it takes several posts before enough info is gathered to answer the question. When consulting by the hour, this was often a problem. Sometimes, it could take 15-30 minutes just to squeeze out what info I needed. I would end up giving the person free added time because I felt bad about it. This time, I'm telling the people to provide info in great detail by email before I take them on. I will study their info at no cost, but when we start the clock, there will be little or no fudging. I am working on a questionnaire for the consulting.



I want to thank you for your diligent work. I mean that. I have been serious about all this, but I don't think serious enough when I do a little introspection. So thank you for the "booster shot." It was not wasted on me.


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## jhop1994 (Jul 5, 2021)

https://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=6638#p59284



Hi I took an interest in this post due to the nature of it’s name an potential quote. Has the original posting been deleted?


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## g_axelsson (Jul 5, 2021)

jhop1994 said:


> https://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=6638#p59284
> 
> 
> 
> Hi I took an interest in this post due to the nature of it’s name an potential quote. Has the original posting been deleted?



Do you mean Separation and Purification Au,Pt,Pd,Ag,Rh,Os,Ir,Ru

The URL is misformed, did you find it in an old post? The forum is old and the software have evolved and sometimes things break. We try to fix it when we find errors.

Welcome to the forum!

Göran


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## jhop1994 (Jul 6, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Irons said:
> 
> 
> > ..and Ruthenium Tetroxide detonates at 109 Deg. C. I was near a fume hood when some Ruthenium Tetroxide we were distilling detonated. It wrecked the hood and contaminated the lab. It was a very expensive accident. That was my first introduction to Ruthenium poisoning.
> ...





g_axelsson said:


> jhop1994 said:
> 
> 
> > https://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=6638#p59284
> ...



Thank you for the speedy response Goran.
This was exactly what I was looking for.
This faulty link was found among the many quotes about why a simple question, never has a simple answer in refinement.

Thank your for the welcome  I hope to one day be a nice asset to the forum.

Jason


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 6, 2021)

I've edited the opening post to fix the link. Thank you both.

Dave


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Many new members are frustrated when they first join this forum. They may have experience on other internet forums where it is common for members to ask simple questions and get quick answers. They join this forum in hopes of getting similar responses to their questions about refining.
> 
> These are some questions that have been asked:
> 
> ...


I wish the mods wrote me books like sheeeeeet. They all just give too generic of answers making learning impossible. They also mix vocabulary, then don't use the proper vocab right after in "generalized" sayings. I can't learn only having partial terminology used here, and there. Many users just let you know how much vocabulary they have, and actually get to no points.

I. WANT. BOOKS. DAMMIT! I WANT TO NOT SPEND 150k YEARLY FOR COLLEGE! lmfao

I will add that I am oblivious many times, but I circle back to apologies for being dumb, and warn that I am a potato. My point is that I'd rather be baffled by very specific outlined, and correct terminology with answers than condescending tones plus generalizations without examples just saying "there are many ways", or something similar over, and over with 0 resolve.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 17, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> I wish the mods wrote me books like sheeeeeet. They all just give too generic of answers making learning impossible. They also mix vocabulary, then don't use the proper vocab right after in "generalized" sayings. I can't learn only having partial terminology used here, and there. Many users just let you know how much vocabulary they have, and actually get to no points.
> 
> I. WANT. BOOKS. DAMMIT! I WANT TO NOT SPEND 150k YEARLY FOR COLLEGE! lmfao
> 
> I will add that I am oblivious many times, but I circle back to apologies for being dumb, and warn that I am a potato. My point is that I'd rather be baffled by very specific outlined, and correct terminology with answers than condescending tones plus generalizations without examples just saying "there are many ways", or something similar over, and over with 0 resolve.


You know Catt.
Many times in refining, the only simple answer is that there are no simple answer.

As long as you are refining the same thing with the same procedure every time, one can put down a clear answer.... or maybe not.

Sometimes the temperate or purity of the chemical change. Maybe you had a short lapse of memory or have specially tempting steak for dinner, who knows.

Things change, and we all have to learn to deal with it.
Thus the general base chemistry is what we have to learn, then we need to adapt that to the conditions at hand, this round of refining.

Most of the time there are no surprises....

I really do not know how else to describe it.

Enjoy your reading. If you master Hokes book, you are well equipped to discover more

Regards Per-Ove


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> You know Catt.
> Many times in refining, the only simple answer is that there are no simple answer.
> 
> As long as you are refining the same thing with the same procedure every time, one can put down a clear answer.... or maybe not.
> ...


-I mean.... Yes. For 1 I understand chemistry is a massive web, and so many variables play a role.
-I have not found a solution I enjoy just yet. Getting carbonized by SOx/sulfuric, or not being able to filter NOx's isn't the rout I want. I was asking on precipitation or cementing actions. I purposely gave a incorrect situation to understand how it was wrong, and the actions/laws/theories on why it was without much avail. My own research cleared it up somewhat, but a teacher would probably be most appropriate in telling me how dumb I was, and why. 
-English here is so bad I can hardly understand many users.
-I wasn't surprised, and I'm unsure why you say that. I wish to be overloaded, and surprised with too much data.
-Not sure what you are describing.
-CM. Hokes is religion here, and I'll get to reading her stuff, but I am no fan of nitric. Does the book go into any other methods like chlorine? Peracetic acids? Acid ratio's to material weight/densities of those 2 , methods I just mentioned? 
I'm not reading 300+ pages to find a by the book method for nitric refining. 
-Plus my questions went way deeper ironically. I'm a little ol noob, but I wanted to know the electro physics, properties, rules, and laws of why materials do what they do. 
-Also, reading chemistry equations is not too bad, but many people have many different preferences to write them. such examples would be Molecular, Complete ionic, and net ionic. So, that and learning all the symbolism, and how people are representing equations is slightly challenging as well.


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## MicheleM (Dec 17, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> I wish the mods wrote me books like sheeeeeet. They all just give too generic of answers making learning impossible. They also mix vocabulary, then don't use the proper vocab right after in "generalized" sayings. I can't learn only having partial terminology used here, and there. Many users just let you know how much vocabulary they have, and actually get to no points.
> 
> I. WANT. BOOKS. DAMMIT! I WANT TO NOT SPEND 150k YEARLY FOR COLLEGE! lmfao
> 
> I will add that I am oblivious many times, but I circle back to apologies for being dumb, and warn that I am a potato. My point is that I'd rather be baffled by very specific outlined, and correct terminology with answers than condescending tones plus generalizations without examples just saying "there are many ways", or something similar over, and over with 0 resolve.


This forum is literally a gold mine of information. IF you wish to learn something about precious metal refining , well , you have to be patient and read it, thread by thread. Chemistry books are useful if you want go deeper but not mandatory


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 17, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> -I mean.... Yes. For 1 I understand chemistry is a massive web, and so many variables play a role.
> -I have not found a solution I enjoy just yet. Getting carbonized by SOx/sulfuric, or not being able to filter NOx's isn't the rout I want. I was asking on precipitation or cementing actions. I purposely gave a incorrect situation to understand how it was wrong, and the actions/laws/theories on why it was without much avail. My own research cleared it up somewhat, but a teacher would probably be most appropriate in telling me how dumb I was, and why.
> -English here is so bad I can hardly understand many users.
> -I wasn't surprised, and I'm unsure why you say that. I wish to be overloaded, and surprised with too much data.
> ...


Well English is not my first language so I try to be as precise as I can.
And I don't realise I described anything?
Regarding formulas in different flavours. 
You don't have to use them much in our chemistry.
The dirty chemistry of first reclaiming and then first refining are usually so mixed and dirty that balancing to estimate the amount of chemicals are moot.
The most important reaction as such is AR, and there we strive to use as little Nitric as possible.
For me as mainly hobbyist, I rarely have any brown fumes at all, let alone excess Nitric when done. 
For a professional this would not be effective enough. 
But the jargon, different formulas and such usually sneak up in you and suddenly they are there
And remember some of our esteemed members have little spare time and many do not speak primary English, some even rely on translators. 
So try to be patient with us and study the forum. We try our best.

Regards Per-Ove


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

MicheleM said:


> This forum is literally a gold mine of information. IF you wish to learn something about precious metal refining , well , you have to be patient and read it, thread by thread. Chemistry books are useful if you want go deeper but not mandatory


Books I would prefer. Which do you suggest? Reading comments can be helpful, but step by step full explanations would be preferable.


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## MicheleM (Dec 17, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Books I would prefer. Which do you suggest? Reading comments can be helpful, but step by step full explanations would be preferable.


in my life I read many books of inorganic chemistry and physics-chemistry , but no single book gave me the knowledge on refining based on experience that I learnt here (it is a question-answer kind of learning), except for some research paper on specific chemical reaction. So I am not able to suggest you a book


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Well English is not my first language so I try to be as precise as I can.
> And I don't realise I described anything?
> Regarding formulas in different flavours.
> You don't have to use them much in our chemistry.
> ...


-Hm. I should firstly state that I am not just pointing you out on the English, or even you much at all on this point. I applaud those people who are bilingual/multilingual. English is so simple that I depend on it only unfortunately, but I will tell you a secret. I am the worst English speller that you possibly ever meet. So, me saying that part is just factual rather than a verbal jab. It does make it actually complicated for me to understand at times. Now I see you are from Philippines, and I forget I can even see that information. I rarely expect to people to give out such information online.

-For your next part. For proper efficiency to be reached in any way you would want to know mass to volume of solution formulas. Many reactions can even have real negative effects on processing if balances are not met properly. For eating base metals like you said it is so dirty it doesn't matter too much, but if it is your hobby you will want to achieve the best efficiency you can get really. You do also want to avoid any dangerous reactions if present.

- for AR you are correct. You can in essence use very little HNO3 (nitric) to achieve a good results, so that or AP would be my main route. Not fully sure why other's don't prefer AP though.

-This. "But the jargon, different formulas and such usually sneak up in you and suddenly they are there" I couldn't agree with you more. I have never heard reduce/reduction/reducing ever heard more backwards than in chemistry in my life, and that's just a small example. The jargon gets WHEW, but it's still doable. It's more how people prefer to show equations that gets real complicated for my head haha.

-Yes. Even I type these out rapidly, so I don't necessarily scold, or gripe at those who generalize, but it gets slightly confusing just walking in. I usually just state I am a potato, so it may hinder the conversation heavily. I mean this as in; they may go even softer, or even more generalized which can confuse even more haha. I am also new to chemistry, so idk how else to say I'm a potato, but I can learn fast.... depending.


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

MicheleM said:


> in my life I read many books of inorganic chemistry and physics-chemistry , but no single book gave me the knowledge on refining based on experience that I learnt here (it is a question-answer kind of learning), except for some research paper on specific chemical reaction. So I am not able to suggest you a book


Physics-chemistry is where I'd like to start. Bottom up basically. Couldn't agree more with learning through questions though. That is in fact why I'd rather do that method here haha. That is speed, time, and overall energy efficient.


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## MicheleM (Dec 17, 2021)

@CattMurry here is where I started Amazon.it: Atkins' Physical Chemistry - Atkins, Peter, de Paula, Julio, Keeler, James - Libri


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

MicheleM said:


> @CattMurry here is where I started Amazon.it: Atkins' Physical Chemistry - Atkins, Peter, de Paula, Julio, Keeler, James - Libri


Does it need to be the 11th edition? Just wondering on what differences between the additions. Seems like I can get the international 8th edition for free on PDF, so I would be greatly interested in that option first.


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

MicheleM said:


> @CattMurry here is where I started Amazon.it: Atkins' Physical Chemistry - Atkins, Peter, de Paula, Julio, Keeler, James - Libri


Nvm I got it. Thanks again. Nice looking book though. Would prefer the actual physical copy.


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## butcher (Dec 17, 2021)

If you wish to learn chemistry there are thousands of chemistry books, that go into great detail, I have collected many many books on chemistry and several books on refining, the refining books normally barely touch chemistry, and even the best chemistry books only brush on the refining of metal.

Out of the chemistry books, I have collected most of them end up heating my home and going into my woodstove, the same with many of the books on refining, most have some good tidbits of information and I will collect that before the book becomes fuel for the fire,.
Then you will find a few other books that will speak to you with volumes of valuable information like Hoke's book where she teaches chemistry without really going into the details of the chemistry, or a chemistry book well written full of details that seem like it was written just for you and gives you what you need to understand of the chemistry and how recovery and refining, then those books will begin to line your bookshelves.

Keep seeking and you will find, but you may also find you have to continue to search and study even after finding some answers because you will keep finding more of what you do not know or do not understand and you will never learn it all at least in one or more lifetimes.

These arts are not something you learn by hearing something from a friend, or by reading some book, or learning from asking questions on a forum, these skills of chemistry or of recovery and refining are professions that take years to learn and can take the rest of your life to learn more and never touch the surface of.

You seem to wish to learn a skill, art, or profession like electronics, and expect to get all of the answers in one post or two or in one paper with all of the details, by asking a couple of questions, or to find it all in one book, well it is not that simple, you can read thousands of books work with electronics daily your whole life, studying it hard every night, spend years in college or professional classrooms and only touch the surface of what there is to learn about the art, you can spend several lifetimes and still know very little of what there is to learn.

Learning a new skill is more difficult when you first begin, as you gain an understanding the easier it becomes to learn more or gain more of an understanding, so learning becomes easier, but you will never learn or understand it all it is just so vast and there is just so much more to it than meets your eye.

If you wish to learn you must work for it, your education is something that can not just be handed to you on a silver platter, or in some simple book.

Yggdrasil said it very well when he stated the simple answer is, that there is no simple answer.


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

butcher said:


> If you wish to learn chemistry there are thousands of chemistry books, that go into great detail, I have collected many many books on chemistry and several books on refining, the refining books normally barely touch chemistry, and even the best chemistry books only brush on the refining of metal.
> 
> Out of the chemistry books, I have collected most of them end up heating my home and going into my woodstove, the same with many of the books on refining, most have some good tidbits of information and I will collect that before the book becomes fuel for the fire,.
> Then you will find a few other books that will speak to you with volumes of valuable information like Hoke's book where she teaches chemistry without really going into the details of the chemistry, or a chemistry book well written full of details that seem like it was written just for you and gives you what you need to understand of the chemistry and how recovery and refining, then those books will begin to line your bookshelves.
> ...


Lmfao. Butcher. Love you buddy. Always with the more personal, almost religious, and generalized wisdom. I am aware, and that's why in other comments I have said chemistry is also physics, and is basically everything. I call it a web meaning you pull one string and many more strings come out. I am merely seeking understanding abroad, and I have quite the broad fascination of chemistry, metallurgy, astrophysics, charge/electromagnetic physics, social behaviors, human intent (behaviors), human word play(behaviors), jargon, and loophole plays in law, politics (easily seen through), Teaching/coordinating, animal sciences, and bio sciences like biology, and bio physics, geometry/laws of geometry(mathematics in all fields), religious views/studies, and even more. I do this out of boredom friend, so the solemn message doesn't phase me much. I've learned what there is, so all the in real depth science is up next! These books, and readings on chemistry I will most likely read on the side rather than grind though. Although you are most correct with the bits and pieces of relevant, gold, or good information to seek the actual path you wish to put to action.


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## CattMurry (Dec 17, 2021)

butcher said:


> If you wish to learn chemistry there are thousands of chemistry books, that go into great detail, I have collected many many books on chemistry and several books on refining, the refining books normally barely touch chemistry, and even the best chemistry books only brush on the refining of metal.
> 
> Out of the chemistry books, I have collected most of them end up heating my home and going into my woodstove, the same with many of the books on refining, most have some good tidbits of information and I will collect that before the book becomes fuel for the fire,.
> Then you will find a few other books that will speak to you with volumes of valuable information like Hoke's book where she teaches chemistry without really going into the details of the chemistry, or a chemistry book well written full of details that seem like it was written just for you and gives you what you need to understand of the chemistry and how recovery and refining, then those books will begin to line your bookshelves.
> ...


Also, education in all forms is a mere conversation of two parties, or personal experiment like reactions which I do with humans each day friend. Just like a chemistry project. Me asking questions, or seeking data in one way is still work. You always seem emotional, and I am unsure why. Share some bits and pieces of yours then. I simply grind data out of raw boredom anyways. Why do you think I said I don't wanna pay 150k yearly for data? I have no real path, and you jab yourself showing your colors saying what you say. I seek no silver platter. My "platter" has been smashed through horrors you cannot withstand to witness, and then the shards shredded into my eyes, and throat. What do you assume wise one? I am here for money? Oh no my dearest friend. I am here for nothing, and for everything data whatever way it comes. In this field I am a mere child in infancy in my understanding, and capacity, but I leap in understanding. Takes a bit, but when it clicks I jump, but again..... I jump in understanding, but lack any action to put forth, or profit from.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 17, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Now I see you are from Philippines, and I forget I can even see that information. I rarely expect to people to give out such information online.


Well slightly more complicated than that. I'm Norwegian living in the Philippines. 
Trying to get the gripe of a totally new language with completely different structure and grammar.

But I'm a bit flabbergasted by your "poetic" writing in the last post. 
One moment you talk about simple answers and clear language, next you serve us something that is far from that, almost from the times of Shakespear?
Sometimes I wish I could write like that, but not here.

Regards Per-Ove

Regarding the personal info.
I do not plan to say or do anything that are legally questionable, and I plan to be polite and correct in my dealings here so I do not foresee it as an issue to have it open.


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## Geo (Dec 18, 2021)

There is a balance that we should try and achieve when we give an answer to the more serious questions. When someone asks for a simple answer to a complicated process, instead of trying to give step by step instructions (which is useless because there are no "cookie cutter" processes", I feel it is better to point someone to the information they need and can learn it at their own pace. Are you really helping someone by spoon feeding them step by step? Only if your intentions are being on call to answer questions at any time. If it were a one on one, that may work, but the proportion of people who know and people who wants to know is too far apart. The people who know spent the time to learn and someone expecting them to stop what they are doing and answer a burning question is really very selfish. Search for yourself first. Experiment if you can to prove your self right or wrong. When you try and fail a few times, then you will not only have more respect for those that know how to do it correctly, you know what questions to ask to get the answer you need and then have the experience to understand the answer that was given to you. If you are given an answer to your question and you don't understand the answer, then asking and answering was a complete waste of time.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Well slightly more complicated than that. I'm Norwegian living in the Philippines.
> Trying to get the gripe of a totally new language with completely different structure and grammar.
> 
> But I'm a bit flabbergasted by your "poetic" writing in the last post.
> ...


Hm? I wouldn't take it as Shakespearian type of poetry, but thanks I think. The last 2 statements were directed to Butcher, and not anyone else. I attempt my best to stay kind, but it appears some just want to say learning is not easy, or within grasp in many different ways. I am not so ignorant to think learning is so easily achievable haha. Again this is explaining the past post which was not directed at you. I commend you for learning a new language. English is known to be simple, but apparently hard for many to learn from other languages (so I have heard). For me only English's spelling hardly makes any sense to me, but it works, and is what we have.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Geo said:


> There is a balance that we should try and achieve when we give an answer to the more serious questions. When someone asks for a simple answer to a complicated process, instead of trying to give step by step instructions (which is useless because there are no "cookie cutter" processes", I feel it is better to point someone to the information they need and can learn it at their own pace. Are you really helping someone by spoon feeding them step by step? Only if your intentions are being on call to answer questions at any time. If it were a one on one, that may work, but the proportion of people who know and people who wants to know is too far apart. The people who know spent the time to learn and someone expecting them to stop what they are doing and answer a burning question is really very selfish. Search for yourself first. Experiment if you can to prove your self right or wrong. When you try and fail a few times, then you will not only have more respect for those that know how to do it correctly, you know what questions to ask to get the answer you need and then have the experience to understand the answer that was given to you. If you are given an answer to your question and you don't understand the answer, then asking and answering was a complete waste of time.


Confused on what you mean. I can't not force people to answer my threads, or questions no matter how burning they may be. They chose, and choose themselves. lol. I agree that you point to more helpful means of "reading for yourself" type of information though. Yes, I do agree with asking more appropriate, and accurate questions haha. When I try to look things up I do get many different answers, so it is not easy to know which is right, or how they might both, or all might be right. Has nothing to do with respect though. I am kind until people don't point out I am wrong, or why. Be brutal. It helps. Is what I would say to explaining things to me. Of course I also realize that also a few things have flown past my clueless head in comments, and is why I try to reiterate my understanding of what was said, and ask if that is the right way of understanding whatever was previously mentioned without much avail. It is not just wasting your time, but all of ours. It definitely can get frustrating, and I agree.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 18, 2021)

Just an eye opener. 
The second reading of Hokes book gives quite a few ahaa moments.
So if you are finished reading once.
Just try once more.
PoA


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Just an eye opener.
> The second reading of Hokes book gives quite a few ahaa moments.
> So if you are finished reading once.
> Just try once more.
> PoA


Didn't even glance at it yet, but I shall take your advice. It just seems like her way is like a single very thought out way through nitric uses which I commend her for. At the same time though I don't enjoy nitric, BUT THEN AGAIN I am ignorant to what her work even states, so I am shooting into the dark from that standpoint. I'd just rather not read 400 pages for a single route if you can understand. I do appreciate the responses.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

butcher said:


> If you wish to learn chemistry there are thousands of chemistry books, that go into great detail, I have collected many many books on chemistry and several books on refining, the refining books normally barely touch chemistry, and even the best chemistry books only brush on the refining of metal.
> 
> Out of the chemistry books, I have collected most of them end up heating my home and going into my woodstove, the same with many of the books on refining, most have some good tidbits of information and I will collect that before the book becomes fuel for the fire,.
> Then you will find a few other books that will speak to you with volumes of valuable information like Hoke's book where she teaches chemistry without really going into the details of the chemistry, or a chemistry book well written full of details that seem like it was written just for you and gives you what you need to understand of the chemistry and how recovery and refining, then those books will begin to line your bookshelves.
> ...


I miss you my ol friend. You seemed to have gone quiet. My question for simple answers is why not hit em with the full data then? If you care not answer, or spend the time why answer at all? Just to disgruntle? My very abusive parents always said if you have nothing to bring to the conversation don't speak at all. They were right in this stance (when they used it appropriately), and "If you have nothing nice to say do not say anything at all."

My conclusion: If simpletons are a bother then diverge their interests with every bit of data, and knowledge you have at them. If it sticks.... good for them. If it doesn't you got your way of shoving someone down yet again. BTW Butcher your name suits you fairly well. Much love <3


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## butcher (Dec 18, 2021)

Yes, my name suits me just fine.

You seem to have some kind of chip on your shoulder, sorry about that, it must be a heavy load to carry that kind of burden aeound with you.

I have spent years of hard work to learn the skills I have and I have also spent years helping others who wish to help themselves and further their own skills. I have written and contributed enough information to write a book to help others here on the forum.

If you are interested in learning or wish to learn these skills, or the chemistry involved you may some of those helpful to read or gain something from it.

I tried to help you, but apparently, you are already too smart for your own britches and know better, or just cannot hear, or are just more interested in playing some kind of game, sir I do not play games.

If you need help understanding some of the chemistry and are serious I will still be glad to assist you where I am able to, if you have some kind of chip to carry concerning me and do not need my help that's fine with me too, I will just spend my time helping others who are willing to learn where I can, 

I will not play games.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 18, 2021)

Hear hear.
Good Butcher, I thank you.


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## CattMurry (Dec 18, 2021)

butcher said:


> Yes, my name suits me just fine.
> 
> You seem to have some kind of chip on your shoulder, sorry about that, it must be a heavy load to carry that kind of burden aeound with you.
> 
> ...


You... still didn't provide me what went over my head. I had asked that. I could write a few books myself on human reactions, emotions, and well.... quite a lot about life to be perfectly honest. I knew you'd have a lot to offer . I can always tell someone who has a bunch in there, but if they detect you are a moron, or incompetent they will do that... Resist, and discourage you after by being annoyed in essence. I'm always down to chat to be strait haha. I don't say be brutal ( to me) as a joke at all. Literally say "I just explained this, and now you are saying it backwards moron" AT ME. Literally. I use anxiety through adrenalin as an accelerant for fun. What is this about being too smart?! I have said repeatedly on here I'm a moron! I still say it! I said I am an infant in this field of study. You don't play games yet you enjoy lying! You make little sense to me my friend, but chips on my shoulder no. I've had every chip taken out of me every day unfortunately, and I play no games either. Any hypocritical technicality I'll call you out on, so in my learning do it back at me. Don't be so passive we see you're sparky, and quite lively!
You don't even know who I am. I'm someone who loves sparky people like yourself. You, and other's provide the best data and results depending on what data i wish to search for. <3. And of course I hope to share mine as well!


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 18, 2021)

What is it with you Catt?
If you spent your energy on reading and studying in stead of bickering and writing long essays (well written by the way) you would be well on the way of understanding at least some of the topics in here.

So in danger of repeating myself.
Please search the forum, read miss Hokes book and if something are still unclear ask specific questions.

Per-Ove


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Hm? I'd say the same about and to Butcher, but that's how buddies, and gangs work I guess. Seems like a bored individual like myself, and as I have said he did not repeat himself... Just jarred, and spat verbally in annoyance instead of being specific about how I am a moron. I don't doubt it, but it of course needs explaining for me to really learn otherwise his "I help so many" is a mere appearance for the forum.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

BTW: "My Primary language are not English so language errors may occur, please do correct me whenever needed."

My primary language is not English.....

is the correct grammar.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> BTW: "My Primary language are not English so language errors may occur, please do correct me whenever needed."
> 
> My primary language is not English.....
> 
> is the correct grammar.


I'll fix it. Thanks.
Per-Ove


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

Done


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> What is it with you Catt?
> If you spent your energy on reading and studying in stead of bickering and writing long essays (well written by the way) you would be well on the way of understanding at least some of the topics in here.
> 
> So in danger of repeating myself.
> ...


If I may add as well that Butcher actually had a prime spot to embarrass me right after I had a little drama outburst right here: 
"What are you having issue explaining? I simply only wondered if the youtuber was being honest which he was, but his explanation is quite a bit simplified. None of you really answer strait forward the main question either. Baking soda is a reducer, and it neutralizes many acids that I can think of just like SMB, and others. Obviously you wouldn't just throw it into a melting pot of solutions......"

If he had squashed me right here quoting me I would've been toasted, and learned why I was aggravating him.


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## Geo (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry said:


> Confused on what you mean. I can't not force people to answer my threads, or questions no matter how burning they may be. They chose, and choose themselves. lol. I agree that you point to more helpful means of "reading for yourself" type of information though. Yes, I do agree with asking more appropriate, and accurate questions haha. When I try to look things up I do get many different answers, so it is not easy to know which is right, or how they might both, or all might be right. Has nothing to do with respect though. I am kind until people don't point out I am wrong, or why. Be brutal. It helps. Is what I would say to explaining things to me. Of course I also realize that also a few things have flown past my clueless head in comments, and is why I try to reiterate my understanding of what was said, and ask if that is the right way of understanding whatever was previously mentioned without much avail. It is not just wasting your time, but all of ours. It definitely can get frustrating, and I agree.


The difference is learning as apposed to simply following directions. If you were following a recipe and you were being told step by step what to do and only given information you need at the time, you are not learning but just simply following directions. It's not only reading but applying what you have read in a practical way. It's called experimenting. You learn from experimentation. It grants experience. Even though you may complete the recipe following directions, but you may not learn because you are given information as needed. What happens if you lose the recipe? Will you remember the whole thing after performing it one time? Most refining happens in steps with each step having sub-steps or possible combinations that needs to be applied at different points. After you have performed the steps your self, then you can formulate questions that is most beneficial to what you are needing to do. When someone answers, the answer will not be a mystery to you because you have experienced it and have first hand knowledge.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Geo said:


> The difference is learning as apposed to simply following directions. If you were following a recipe and you were being told step by step what to do and only given information you need at the time, you are not learning but just simply following directions. It's not only reading but applying what you have read in a practical way. It's called experimenting. You learn from experimentation. It grants experience. Even though you may complete the recipe following directions, but you may not learn because you are given information as needed. What happens if you lose the recipe? Will you remember the whole thing after performing it one time? Most refining happens in steps with each step having sub-steps or possible combinations that needs to be applied at different points. After you have performed the steps your self, then you can formulate questions that is most beneficial to what you are needing to do. When someone answers, the answer will not be a mystery to you because you have experienced it and have first hand knowledge.


You don't necessarily need to learn through experimenting. Talk to math graduates. Have they done some architect? mmmm. I don't mean to nit-pick because it is very validating, but this has irony in how Butcher talks completely. It does take broad understanding all around doesn't it? You are talking to someone who always seeks many ways of learning, and never a single. It is making me giggle tbh. If you haven't seen all my threads I do experiment in ways I know safe.... For example my HCL finding. Learned it can be basically used to eat zinc, and Ni plating which in essence flakes, or De-plates Au from gold plated materials. It can also detect fake anything fairly well too.
-I should add: it jellifies paints, so you don't get scammed by "gold looking" materials as well. If plated gold has paint on it HCL may be used to remove that too, but I am unsure about all paints. Most simple jewelry paints used "jellify" though.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

Not entirely correct, their lab is a blackboard or a piece of paper.
Different tools, same techniques.
Train, experiment and perform.
Numbers or chemicals, both are tools.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> Not entirely correct, their lab is a blackboard or a piece of paper.
> Different tools, same techniques.
> Train, experiment and perform.
> Numbers or chemicals, both are tools.


I commend for the effort in correcting, but their "lab" cannot kill instantly, or worse.... slowly with the most horrific deaths feasible. They also write to show examples just like chemistry teachers. In chemistry you also use pencils, a board, and everything else in that environment. You can basically have a full career in mathematics without really doing in life work involving much of the math, and it's depth that you learn. Like quantum theories, and mathematical plausibility.... they are used to create sonar systems, yet not many teachers go into creating defense systems, or are engineers at all. (which is sad really).
You can learn chemistry on paper without actually doing anything real as well, but it concretes the understanding of novices/students. it helps even the most knowledgeable chemists I'm sure, but especially satisfies their curiosity as well haha.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

You really need to have the last say, do you?

Still. 
I think my argument stands in the setting it was made, dangers only needs to be addressed and alleviated.

You read, research and execute what you have learned, then if needed go back, learn more and so on.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> You really need to have the last say, do you?
> 
> Still.
> I think my argument stands in the setting it was made, dangers only needs to be addressed and alleviated.
> ...


Not at all. Just sense to be made fully really. If it is not other's can get confused. Don't be so defensive! I let other's have the last say on threads. Go check.

Fair enough. Many arguments are point of view, but you disregard that you can know chemistry on paper without really doing it. Just like doing reactions, and not seeing every danger/gas/reaction in your face, but you know it is there. You learned it on paper, so you can do the whole setup virtually, then even get things like grants/loans, and other things by being just smart in that field on paper.

Also like getting a job. Have you done that job yet? No, but you may be accepted for your knowledge in that particular field, and know your way around that information, thus being prepared, or qualified.

That would also be: You really need the last say don't you?
Much love
-Matt


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 19, 2021)

I rest my case, I'm out of this thread for now.
I have other things to do.


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## CattMurry (Dec 19, 2021)

Yggdrasil said:


> You really need to have the last say, do you?
> 
> Still.
> I think my argument stands in the setting it was made, dangers only needs to be addressed and alleviated.
> ...


I'll give you a arguing point though. To know everything on paper you must depend on someone before you who had to do the thinking, or "experiment", so that remains true.


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## Alabama938 (Dec 19, 2021)

Good judgement come from experience, experience comes from bad judgement. Learning from mistakes by others helps mitigate your own as you progress through developing expertise. Which takes something like 100,000 hours of not just reading books, doing calculations, but in this case doing chemistry. 

Telling people to read Hoke is a litmus test, that book can be read in a few afternoons. It’s like a classic textbook of surgery using pencil drawings, still holds up but it’s not the whole story obviously. 

I fully appreciate when these guys get condescending, because they can tell when you don’t deserve the answer/explanation/time it takes to type this. I will say though, asking what is your/the preferred methodology ie what's the best way is,in my mind, the best way to start a discussion, you just need someone to bite.


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## Jado (Dec 19, 2021)

Alabama938 said:


> Good judgement come from experience, experience comes from bad judgement. Learning from mistakes by others helps mitigate your own as you progress through developing expertise. Which takes something like 100,000 hours of not just reading books, doing calculations, but in this case doing chemistry.
> 
> Telling people to read Hoke is a litmus test, that book can be read in a few afternoons. It’s like a classic textbook of surgery using pencil drawings, still holds up but it’s not the whole story obviously.
> 
> I fully appreciate when these guys get condescending, because they can tell when you don’t deserve the answer/explanation/time it takes to type this. I will say though, asking what is your/the preferred methodology ie what's the best way is,in my mind, the best way to start a discussion, you just need someone to bite.


There’s a tribe in Africa I read about back in school who use a highly toxic plant as a food staple. We learn from books in our civilized society because that’s where all the dead people’s failures are contained. Well said, but I thought it needed some kick.


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## Geo (Dec 19, 2021)

CattMurry​I've played the devils advocate many times on the forum and it's actually gotten me yelled at by the admin a few times. From my standpoint, being the devils advocate is fine up to a certain point, but being confrontational all the time does not serve you well in a community like this. There are some major egos on the forum and do not tolerate being questioned very well. If enough members complain about it, right or wrong, it's much simpler and easier to remove the member than to try and address each complaint. If you enjoy the atmosphere and the knowledge provided, perhaps you should spend more time learning the tried and true methods first before you start trying to be innovative and try to reinvent the wheel. Please accept this bit of advice in the spirit it is given. Try to stay out of everyone's face for awhile and soak up some of the knowledge in the library maybe.


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## Zhazham (Feb 25, 2022)

As a newbie, i try my best not to be an annoyance. I read a lot but sometimes don't understand all i read. Also, sometimes i just don't understand everything as english is just my third language.

I totally understand frustration of Senior members. These are not simple things, and are potentially deadly things, so i understand the feeling of responsibility and frustration of Senior members.


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## Zhazham (Feb 25, 2022)

Also, it takes 10 000 hours to be a master of some subject. I think this is not an exception. There are no shortcuts of mastering this.


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## Edlin (Aug 14, 2022)

CattMurry said:


> Not at all. Just sense to be made fully really. If it is not other's can get confused. Don't be so defensive! I let other's have the last say on threads. Go check.
> 
> Fair enough. Many arguments are point of view, but you disregard that you can know chemistry on paper without really doing it. Just like doing reactions, and not seeing every danger/gas/reaction in your face, but you know it is there. You learned it on paper, so you can do the whole setup virtually, then even get things like grants/loans, and other things by being just smart in that field on paper.
> 
> ...


In Chemistry if your knowledge is only theoretical, then that knowledge is incomplete. That is the reason why laboratory work is an essential part of any chemistry course.


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## orvi (Aug 15, 2022)

Edlin said:


> In Chemistry if your knowledge is only theoretical, then that knowledge is incomplete. That is the reason why laboratory work is an essential part of any chemistry course.


It should be a healthy portion of both theory and practical experience. Espetially if you are doing some new chemistry - so you cannot be certain about what will happen afterwards. That is the reason why I always advise new members (most of the times without much theoretical background or chemical education) to stick to PROVEN working procedures and do not "invent" theyre own to the time they would be confident about what could happen. In this business, most of the intended "shortcuts" make more mess and prolong the work, or even worse, make it more dangerous.

As an example. One guy intended to digest PGM bromide salt in AR to obtain a workable solution. Fair, working reaction... But he does not thought about what will happen with all the bromides... Yep, nitric in AR oxidize bromides to elemental bromine, which not only look scary (red heavy clouds, from the beaker they tend to fall to the bottom of the hood), but also wreck about every material old fume hoods were constructed from. Low boiling point makes this even bigger "disaster". 
Unrusting everything that was in the hood at time of reaction took one whole day. If he prepared for the reaction and learned about bromine and consequences, we could save hundreds of euros  Luckily, it was done with all PPE in place.


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## cejohnsonsr1 (Aug 16, 2022)

In a nutshell, because the question may be simple, but the answer isn’t. I don’t mean to be insulting or degrading, but I see questions on here all the time where the most appropriate answer is that if you have to ask that question, then you won’t be able to understand the answer. Get Hoke’s book. Watch a bunch of Sreetips videos. And be prepared to spend at least a few months studying before you attempt your first recovery/refining. Nothing else will suffice. This isn’t a simple subject.


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## JoeyJoystick (Aug 16, 2022)

Geo said:


> Dave, thank you for quoting me. I would love to think that I made a positive impact on someones well being. I'm not optimistic enough to hope that it will actually steer someone's actions to a safer coarse but one can always hope. I would like to be the poster child for "uneducated decisions that will alter your life".


Hi Geo,

You sure as hell steered me in the right direction. And for that I thank you.

The thing is, all the safety talk is great. It helps the vast majority of people. Now, accidents can always happen, but with knowledge and experience the changes are greatly reduced. But there is another category... You can not possibly stop stupidity. Like putting a red stop button in the middle of the room with a sign to not press the button. You can wait for someone to press the button, right? Please, do not feel bad for people in this category.

Anyway, the whole safety aspect itself is already reason enough to not give a quick answer to people when they casually walk in.

To Owner/Manager(s): I believe the forum is run from Canada or the States. Is it possible the forum may be held liable for damages in the court of law if someone gets an accident? May be not such a bad idea to check this out. Maybe take out an insurance policy on this.. Just a thought... It may be unprecedented, but it would be naïve to not at least consider it I think.


Joey


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## 4metals (Aug 16, 2022)

JoeyJoystick said:


> Is it possible the forum may be held liable for damages in the court of law if someone gets an accident? May be not such a bad idea to check this out. Maybe take out an insurance policy on this.. Just a thought... It may be unprecedented, but it would be naïve to not at least consider it I think.


The questions answered here are answered from the members personal hands on experience and, if you read enough on the forum, you will see that if someone posts something that is just wrong it will be pointed out quickly. In that way we are self policing. 

But if we were responsible for someone who doesn’t follow directions well or see’s something on You Tube and says they heard it here, we would need insurance. If we needed insurance, we would need to qualify everyone who posts. That would kill the forum.

We did have a member here who placed a disclaimer on every post he made. Possibly we should do that where members sign up just to make sure they understand their own responsibility.


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## Martijn (Aug 16, 2022)

JoeyJoystick said:


> To Owner/Manager(s): I believe the forum is run from Canada or the States. Is it possible the forum may be held liable for damages in the court of law if someone gets an accident? May be not such a bad idea to check this out. Maybe take out an insurance policy on this.. Just a thought... It may be unprecedented, but it would be naïve to not at least consider it I think.


I think a well written disclaimer would suffice. 
Something like: A microwave is not for drying your pets... don't sue us for your stupidity.


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## slsmp40 (Aug 17, 2022)

Having worked with elemental bromine i am certain that was a surprise. It’s quite interesting when you expect it and know what is coming. If you dont know how to make a dry ice and acetone bath you should probably not liberate bromine. My only question is if you have the bromide salts why would you want to convert it to the chloride?


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