# Maybe Silver with copper, I dont know, help please



## Barreda (Jul 4, 2018)

Hello to all, first of all, thanks to everyone and i'm new in the fórum, so if i made a mistake of creating this topic i'm sorry, i'm really concerned. i did my first process and tryed to start with AR, i will describe bellow step by step.


PC PARTS USED IN THIS PROCESS: Ram Finger (various type of ram)

METHOD OF SEPARATING FINGERS FROM RAM: i cuted the fingers with a scissors.


LETS TO CHEMICAL PROCESS.


I did 200ml AR with muriatic acid and nitric acid (3:1).

Dropped the AR into a becker with the ram fingers
(figure 1). 


I let it dissolve for two days.


I filtered all finger with a kitchen sieve just to take off all the ram finger from the solution.


I fintered the liquid with normal Cooffe filter.


I filtered again with a qualitative filter paper (twice)(using two filter per time)(till it get clear enough)(figure2).


Added Sulfamic acid till bubbles ends (figure3).

I waited one day.

I did the gold test with SMB (positive for gold).

I added two spoon of SMB. 


Everything turned brown (normal)


In the next day when i saw, it just looked like the all SMB was in the botton of the solution, with some gold foils floating so i thought it didn't work.


I took the liquid with a syringe and filtered with qualitative filter paper to another becker (probably there is gold in the filter) (i still have that liquid 800ml, if there is gold, i have to add AR again?, how can i get the gold from 800 ml of green liquid stabilized?)

I end up with a white powder that looked with SMB.

i guess it was with almost 2 fingers of powder in the botton thats why i thought it was SMB couldn't not be silver, well don't know...

I did fresh 150ml (3:1) AR and drop in the powder while heated it with an electric cooker


All acid evaporated and left only the Silver powder.

I added tap water mixed everything.

I filtered with qualitative filter paper again till it got clear and free of residuous, and this time i obtained blue crystals (figure 4)

I waited one day, and Added sulfamic acid again, but nothing happens this time

I did the SMB test to verify if there was gold (positive)


I'm still waiting since it, it's been now one week, and it's the actual photo from the liquid (figures 5)



The White powder in the botton from figure 5 looks really like with the first one obtained in the first process (a little bit grey i guess, but the same)


Can anyone tell me what happened and what can i do to obtain gold from it ?



THANK YOU ALL GUYS!


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## jimdoc (Jul 4, 2018)

What was the weight of the fingers?


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## Barreda (Jul 4, 2018)

It was 1.7 Kg or 3747,858 lbs 
(100 ram fingers)


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## FrugalRefiner (Jul 4, 2018)

Often, the best way to recover from unknown problems is to cement any values out of the solution with copper. If that doesn't produce your gold, then it's somewhere along the line in your filters.

Dave


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## denim (Jul 4, 2018)

Barreda said:


> It was 1.7 Kg or 3747,858 lbs
> (100 ram fingers)



Something does not add up with your numbers. 100 ram fingers will not weigh anywhere near 1.7kg, or 3747lbs. If all you had was 100 ram fingers then you will end up with VERY little gold, but you should have some. Try Dave's advice and cement with copper, and then show us the results.

Dennis


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## Barreda (Jul 4, 2018)

denim said:


> Barreda said:
> 
> 
> > It was 1.7 Kg or 3747,858 lbs
> ...



Sorry, 1.7kg was the complet ram not the fingers, sorry, i didn't measured the fingers, i only know that is 100 ram fingers.


A friend of mine told to try to dissolve this powder into sulfuric acid and muriatic acid, and if i hadn't the sulfuric try with battery solution, and use sulfamic and SBM again, and try the drop, but this time using thermal shock with cold water or ice, what do you guys think about? does anyone tryied this before? os use cooper stead is 100% better than dissolve again? if i chose to use copper, i have to do the process again or just put the piece of copper into the solution in figure 5?


Thanks all!


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## Lino1406 (Jul 4, 2018)

Try: dissolve white powder with HCL, if negative ammoniak, if negative that is SnO2
In this case start with AR on the powder. However the gold amount is negligible


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## anachronism (Jul 5, 2018)

What stage of the process is the top picture please?


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## Barreda (Jul 5, 2018)

anachronism said:


> What stage of the process is the top picture please?



FInal stage, actual stage actually.


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## Barreda (Jul 5, 2018)

Lino1406 said:


> Try: dissolve white powder with HCL, if negative ammoniak, if negative that is SnO2
> In this case start with AR on the powder. However the gold amount is negligible




Thank you Lino ! I was expecting 1g or 2g of gold, i use two spoon, even a little bit more of SMB the first and second try, do you think that it may cause that disaster?


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## bigpagoda (Jul 5, 2018)

Barreda,
When you put the fingers in AR you also dissolved the base metals underneath the gold foils- mostly copper, a little nickel, and depending how carefully you cut the ram- possibly some tin solder which makes metastannic acid). Unless some of the fingers were tin-silver type there shouldn't be any reason to expect to have any silver in your solution. SMB will drop the copper as white copper chloride as well as any other metals. Copper chloride will dissolve easily in HCL then you can decant the powders left over. I would try it on a small sample- it should turn clear green with enough hcl.
Why are you using SMB for testing for gold? Stannous chloride is a much better option. 
I would expect a little over a half a gram for 100 double-sided fingers.
Did you add anything else to the solution? you started with 400ml, then another 150ml, and ended up with 800 somehow. Cementing with copper may be the best solution but make sure you do not have any metastannic acid in the solution first. (The layer on the bottom of figure 5 makes me think lead chloride from solder) I did not see foils in any of the pictures. Are you saying they appeared in the filtered solution after adding the SMB?


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## Lino1406 (Jul 5, 2018)

Not to forget, using stannous chloride brings SnO2 by itself


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## bigpagoda (Jul 6, 2018)

I'm sorry, I see where you added the tap water to get 800 ml. The tap water may have produced chlorides depending on what was in it. Is there any acid left in the solution now?
Is there a brown residue sticking to the bottom half of the beaker in figure 5 or is it just a reflection. I have had gold precipitate and stick to the side of my beaker because it was dirty before. I have also seen the powders float due to oil from a dirty beaker as well. 
I would really like to see a test using stannous chloride.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 6, 2018)

Lino1406 said:


> Not to forget, using stannous chloride brings SnO2 by itself


You don't add stannous chloride directly to your solution. You use a spot plate, a drop on some filter paper or a pin with a piece of cotton on top.
To save the gold from a spot plate, just wash it into your stock pot. Filter papers or cotton goes into the burn pile with used filters... unless it's negative, then there is no reason to keep it.

Göran


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## anachronism (Jul 6, 2018)

Barreda said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > What stage of the process is the top picture please?
> ...



If that's the case then that brown around the edge of your glass is your gold sticking to the unclean surface.


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## nickvc (Jul 6, 2018)

anachronism said:


> Barreda said:
> 
> 
> > anachronism said:
> ...




Sounds and looks right to me


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## Barreda (Jul 7, 2018)

bigpagoda said:


> Barreda,
> When you put the fingers in AR you also dissolved the base metals underneath the gold foils- mostly copper, a little nickel, and depending how carefully you cut the ram- possibly some tin solder which makes metastannic acid). Unless some of the fingers were tin-silver type there shouldn't be any reason to expect to have any silver in your solution. SMB will drop the copper as white copper chloride as well as any other metals. Copper chloride will dissolve easily in HCL then you can decant the powders left over. I would try it on a small sample- it should turn clear green with enough hcl.
> Why are you using SMB for testing for gold? Stannous chloride is a much better option.
> I would expect a little over a half a gram for 100 double-sided fingers.
> Did you add anything else to the solution? you started with 400ml, then another 150ml, and ended up with 800 somehow. Cementing with copper may be the best solution but make sure you do not have any metastannic acid in the solution first. (The layer on the bottom of figure 5 makes me think lead chloride from solder) I did not see foils in any of the pictures. Are you saying they appeared in the filtered solution after adding the SMB?



Hello Bigpagoda, first of all, thank you for your response, i thought it was silver because a friend of mine told me it was, because of the blue crystals in the filter on figure 4, but now Reading your response, makes more sense thinking it is tin solder, when i cuted the fingers off the ram, icuted some tin solder too, if i dissolve the white powder on the botton with hcl or HNO3 or with AR, what should i do after it got dissolved and turn green? I'm using SMB for test because i don't have the Stannous chloride, after i bought everything i ran out of Money, i was expecting at least 1g, now im little upset, but ok, thats my first process, no i didn't added anythning else on the solution only distilled water when i was filtering the solution,that's why i ended with a huge amount of liquid, how can i identify if i have metastannic acid? I had foils floating on the first solution, when the first solution ended with white powder on the botton i fintered the solution to another beker and i did a new AR for the powder on the bottom and heated it on the electric cooker, the figure 5 its the result of the second time i did the process with AR and electric cooker, the first solution with gold foils i did'nt take a Picture.


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## anachronism (Jul 7, 2018)

You don't need to spend money on stannous. 

HCl and some tinned solder works perfectly.


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## bigpagoda (Jul 8, 2018)

I need to clarify some things.
1. All of the solutions you have made, and all of the powders are in the one beaker in figure 5 right now.
2. That beaker still tests positive for gold with SMB.
3. You kept all the filters.
4. Is there a brown film sticking to the side of that beaker.

I think you need to clean another beaker very well. Use a residue-free solvent (acetone-aclohol etc.) wear gloves, and dry it well. Carefully pour most of the liquid out of figure5 beaker into the clean beaker then use your syringe to suck out the rest leaving only the powder. Slowly add little amounts of HCL to the powder and dissolve it until it turns from brown to green (kinda clear). If it does not dissolve easily stop. Let it sit overnight. If there is any fine dark powder in it the next day that will be your gold (along with the brown residue that may still be stuck to that beaker).
Test both solutions again and post pictures of each.
Stannous chloride is easy to make if you have a source of fairly pure tin. many poeple use tin solder or lead-free fishing sinkers. Lots of info about how to make it on the forum. Copperas is also very easy to come by or make as well. Both ways work much better than SMB. The problem with having you try a new test procedure is that you need a sample of dissloved gold to make sure it works.
If you did make metastannic acid it will make filtering difficult or impossible. It sounds like you might have a very little bit. Most of it is probably trapped in the filters and in the new clean beaker. I wouldn't worry about that yet.


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## bigpagoda (Jul 8, 2018)

I am also curious. I have never heard of testing for gold in solution using SMB. Could you explain how you use it to get a positive result.
Thanks,
Paul


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## Barreda (Jul 11, 2018)

bigpagoda said:


> I am also curious. I have never heard of testing for gold in solution using SMB. Could you explain how you use it to get a positive result.
> Thanks,
> Paul



Hello bigpadoda, thanks again for the advice and for your time, i mix the SMB with distilled water, cut a piece of paper (it can be a piece of an unused qualitative filter) dive the tip of the paper into the solution wich i think there is gold and with a clean spoon i get just a trickle of the solution with distilled water and SMB that i mixed before, and drop at the wet paper. if it turns brown there is gold, if not, there isn't gold. just a question, you told me to use a residue-free solvente, can i use just the normal álcool that we use to light the barbecue grill? if not, can you tell me more types of residue-free solvente?

Thanks again for your time.


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## anachronism (Jul 11, 2018)

Tin + HCl. You've got access to both. Make Stannous.


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## g_axelsson (Jul 11, 2018)

Stannous is so much more sensitive.

Solder from circuit boards and HCl is enough to make a test solution.

Göran


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## bigpagoda (Jul 11, 2018)

I do not know what kind of alcohol you use to start a grill but any fast-evaporating solvent that is not oil-based should work. (rubbing alcohol, acetone, MEK etc.) Good soap, hot water, and elbow grease will work too if you rinse and dry it really well. The main thing is to make sure there is no residue left over from the oils in your skin or previous reactions.
I am still not sure about the SMB testing. It will precipitate everything below sodium on the reactivity chart which could be giving you the brown reaction as a false positive.
Have you made any progress on sourcing some Stannous chloride. It is available on ebay for a few dollars here. A trip to a good hardware store should get you something that is made of tin. It does not have to be pure (but it helps) 60% or better will do. Look for things that say "Lead-free" (fishing weights, plumber's solder, or electrical solder that is not flux-core) Stannous is the standard for precious metals testing.
Copperas is also very good. You can get some at a garden supply house (Ferrous sulphate, Green vitriol, Iron vitriol) Just make sure it is still bright green. It is also easy to make with iron and battery acid. It can be used in place of SMB (no odors) to precipitate PM's as well.


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## Barreda (Jul 12, 2018)

bigpagoda said:


> I need to clarify some things.
> 1. All of the solutions you have made, and all of the powders are in the one beaker in figure 5 right now.
> 2. That beaker still tests positive for gold with SMB.
> 3. You kept all the filters.
> ...




Hello, first i want to thnk you guys both bigpagoda and Göran for the advices.

bigpagoda.

I did what you said, i will show in the pictures. 

- When i was trying to pour off the liquid to another beaker(that i cleaned with normal alcohol), i had kind a crystal on the bottom of the beaker and kind a sponge on the top of the beaker (picture 1), i have no ideia what that could be, so if anyone knows, please tell us.


- (picture 2) its the liquid i took off from the picture one(seems to have gold foils and a white powder)


-( picture 3) is the "rock" and Sponge on the picture 1 but now with HCL.


- after mixed the solution almost everything dissolved and become a white powder. (picture 4).


- conclusion i ended with a solution with some powder and a "green" crystal and a piece of something that looks like a sponge (picture5) (picture 3).


i did SMB test to for gold, but it was negative fow both solutions, the one with liquid and white powder, and the HCl solution with "Crystal" and "Sponge".

What do you think that things could be guys?


Thanks for your time and responses.


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## bigpagoda (Jul 12, 2018)

In picture 1 I can see some black or dark powdery deposits on the side of the beaker and in some spots on the sponge and crystallized stuff in the bottom. I believe this is your gold. Picture 4 is that same beaker with some HCL added right?- if so that is what I expect to see. The other beaker#3 with the powder I think should be barren (don't throw it out.) I still do not see any floating foils in any picture.
neither of these solutions will test positive with smb because the gold (should be) already precipitated. I think in the beaker in picture 4 Have you made any progress with the stannous? 


Not really sure how you got the neat crystal or why you made a sponge. I've re-read the process you followed and we are missing something it is almost like there is a hydroxide that has been formed.
The only chemicals you have used are:
Nitric acid
Hydrochloric acid
Sulfamic acid
SMB
Tap water
you have not added any lye or other bases- chlorine or anything else?
The reason I ask is back in the first set of pictures I do not recognize the blue crystals in the filter in figure 4. based on what you say they appeared after you added the tap water and mixed everything back together in figure5. They look like hydroxides to me. 
the sulfamic acid should precipitate the lead as lead sulfate which you did not filter out. Have to think about this for a while.
have you heated the beaker with the hcl to see if the powder will dissolve any more (Don't boil or evaporate) also do you have any way to test the ph?


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## Barreda (Jul 18, 2018)

bigpagoda said:


> In picture 1 I can see some black or dark powdery deposits on the side of the beaker and in some spots on the sponge and crystallized stuff in the bottom. I believe this is your gold. Picture 4 is that same beaker with some HCL added right?- if so that is what I expect to see. The other beaker#3 with the powder I think should be barren (don't throw it out.) I still do not see any floating foils in any picture.
> neither of these solutions will test positive with smb because the gold (should be) already precipitated. I think in the beaker in picture 4 Have you made any progress with the stannous?
> 
> 
> ...






Hello, Thanks for your time. 

Before i start, i attached some pictures of the SMB and Sulfamic that i'm using, because i would like to know if i'ts the same you use. SMB in my country is called Meta Bissulfito de Sódio, and Sulfamic Acid is Acido Sulfamico, i posted the back and front of the can of bothe chemicals. 


I din't added any lye to the solution, in the end, i waited a few days, and yesterday i was with a black solution, and the crystals and sponge was dissolved because the HCL in previous pictures, just to clarify, Beaker3 and 4 on previous pictures i posted was the same beaker, the only beaker that is not the same it's the beaker on picture2, anyway, yesterday i took the beaker3 and pour off the hcl and in the bottom there was a white powder, than i dissolved it on nitric and distilled water and heat it a little, it became green liquid, after i took the beaker picture2 pour off the liquid and dissolved the the remaining white powder and gold foils in hcl, it became yellow but with a little color of green, i filtered it and in filter there was some black powder, i kept the filters of course, did the test with SMB (because i have no stannous yet) and it was positive for gold, mixed the green solutin and the yellow with little color of green together, used sulfamic acid, but nothing happened, i waited about 1 hour and filtered the sulfamic acid out the solution, i know its acid because everytime i used a paper to test if there was gold the solution started to react to the paper like its corroding the paper, so i heated some distilled water with SMB and poured in solution, but now, the solution stills black and acid and with no precipitation, just no powder, no nothing, just the black solution, like yesterday when i thrown the SMB in the solution, when i tested today, it was positive for gold, my question is, what should i have to do now? use the sulfamic acid in the solution (and if nothing happens keep pouring till i think its good), or should o do other thing? as add more SMB?

Again, thanks you all for your patience and time disposed on helping me. 

I would like to say, that i'm reading the forum everyday, a lot of information of course, but i'm learning some tips, i'm enjoying a lot everything.


Thanks you all.


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## bigpagoda (Jul 20, 2018)

Hello again,
It sounds like you have gotten everything redissolved and mixed into one beaker and you have filtered it. If that is true do not add any more SMB (Excess SMB causes a lot of oxidation of the unwanted metals in your solution). I think it is time to cement your values out of solution. It would help to know how much nitric you added but it's not necessary. If you can find a thick peice of copper that fits under the surface of the solution put it in there. If you don't have a copper bus bar find a section of copper pipe or thick solid wire(don't use stranded wire) .Put in an aquaruim bubbler and let it set for a day or two. The solution will probably turn very dark brown-almost black. remove the bubbler and let it settle for a day then decant it carefully there should be some fine black powder in the bottom, that will be your gold. put the solution into your stock pot for further processing of waste. 
The filter with the black powder may be gold as well. I haven't had good luck capturing gold powders in filters (because I used cheap filters) and some of my gold made it through them so I only decant solutions when I precipitate now. I would let this filter dry then re-process it and the decanted powder to clean up any more impurities.
I would also take this little amount of gold and use it for my gold testing solution.


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## anachronism (Jul 20, 2018)

bigpagoda said:


> Hello again,
> If that is true do not add any more SMB (Excess SMB causes a lot of oxidation of the unwanted metals in your solution).



Hi Pagoda could you elaborate on the oxidation of unwanted metals in the solution? I'm not sure what you means by this.


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## bigpagoda (Jul 21, 2018)

I'm sorry. I meant it would precipitate the unwanted metals in the solution.
Thank you


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## anachronism (Jul 21, 2018)

bigpagoda said:


> I'm sorry. I meant it would precipitate the unwanted metals in the solution.
> Thank you



OK, but excess SMB doesn't precipitate the unwanted metals in the solution. It might take a very small amount of copper out ( a VERY small amount) but the other metals remain. 

There is no harm at all caused by adding too much SMB.


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## Barreda (Jul 22, 2018)

bigpagoda said:


> Hello again,
> It sounds like you have gotten everything redissolved and mixed into one beaker and you have filtered it. If that is true do not add any more SMB (Excess SMB causes a lot of oxidation of the unwanted metals in your solution). I think it is time to cement your values out of solution. It would help to know how much nitric you added but it's not necessary. If you can find a thick peice of copper that fits under the surface of the solution put it in there. If you don't have a copper bus bar find a section of copper pipe or thick solid wire(don't use stranded wire) .Put in an aquaruim bubbler and let it set for a day or two. The solution will probably turn very dark brown-almost black. remove the bubbler and let it settle for a day then decant it carefully there should be some fine black powder in the bottom, that will be your gold. put the solution into your stock pot for further processing of waste.
> The filter with the black powder may be gold as well. I haven't had good luck capturing gold powders in filters (because I used cheap filters) and some of my gold made it through them so I only decant solutions when I precipitate now. I would let this filter dry then re-process it and the decanted powder to clean up any more impurities.
> I would also take this little amount of gold and use it for my gold testing solution.






Hello Everyone.

Bigpagoda thanks again 

A few days later i ended up with fine black powder on the bottom of the beaker, but when i tested the solution it was positive for gold yet, but i decided to filter that black powder and melt, now i'am with a black real little tin of something black on my melting pot stuck into the borax, i didn't wash it with hcl or tried to redissolve in nitric + hcl yet. I was thinking, the one of the most things that really scared me was the fumes caused by the nitric, watching a video on youtube how to make nitric on this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yE7v4wkuZU , i'm wondering, if i can seal a beaker with my e-waste, add nitric and with a garden hose filter the fumes to anhother beaker full of ice and with a erlen meyer inside full of water and filter (lead) the fumes to that water(H2O), can i do this to have a process without fumes? i attached a draw made by me on paint just to clarify my ideia (i don't know if it has been discussed on this forum, i tried but i couldn't find anything, so i'm sorry if it was been told). 

* AND IF IT WORKS FOR NITRIC, DOES IT WORKS FOR AR TOO?

Thanks again!


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## bigpagoda (Jul 23, 2018)

Barreda,
I am glad you found some of your gold. I don't know how much you ended up with, let us know if you can weigh it. It will have some copper in it still and should be refined again. If you are done with this solution it needs to go into your "stock pot" for further recovery of precious metals then treatment of waste. Search Stockpot and dealing with waste and you will find tons of information. I recommend you dissolve this little gold button and use it for a testing solution for stannous when you do get some made. 
The drawing you made is similar to fume scrubbers that are covered well on this forum. Some are very basic and necessary if you want to protect yourself from the fumes. Look these up as well before you peice something together. One of the best ways to protect yourself from nitric fumes is not to create them. 

I would like you to try another batch of memory fingers (gold only) using this process. (AP-Acid Peroxide or Copper Chloride leach)- lots of info about how this works here and it is very easy. 
(Basic Process)
Carefully trim the gold foil portion off as close as you can. (You can use tin snips) Do not leave any of the small surface mounted components (mlcc's, resistors, ic chips) connected to the fingers. (but save them) cover the fingers in a beaker with hcl and a cap full of ordinary household peroxide add an aquarium bubbler and let it sit somewhere safe outside. In a few days the gold foils will fall off easily (occasional stirring will help.) and can be separated with a strainer then filtered out Rinse the foils well and melt. No nitric fumes and the solution can be reused.
HCL fumes are still harmful and very corrosive so it still needs to be respected.
Post when you are ready to try again and it will go smoother.


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## LT_golden (Nov 8, 2018)

nickvc said:


> anachronism said:
> 
> 
> > Barreda said:
> ...




This is another case where anachronism’s blunt directness came out pretty hilarious. :lol:


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