# Dual Silver Cell Setup off One PC Power Supply



## kadriver (Nov 11, 2011)

Here is the dual cell setup. I finally got it running last night.

I want to make a larger cell in a 300 series stainless container like the one described by Harold.

But for now I used what I know works to get some of this silver processed. I have gotten to where the metal is coming in faster than I can refine it. Not a bad problem to have, unless the price of silver heads south.

That pile of anode bars is only about half of what I have to run through the cells. I have about another 1600 grams or so of cemented silver that needs to be washed and melted into anode bars.

In the last week, I have been working so much that I neglected to check the cell. The silver bridged the gap between cathode and anode basket and shorted the cell.

It has happened twice. In both cases I took the cell apart and cleaned, added fresh electrolyte and restarted, using any silver crystals to make anode bars.

I was wondering if anyone has come up with a solution (other that a constant watch) to solve the problem of the cell shorting. I may have asked this before - sorry if it is a repeat.

I was thinking of getting a wall plug timmer, and setting it for an hour, so if I get busy and forget to check the cell, then the power will shup off after an hour. I can then just reset the timer and carry on.

Thanks - kadriver


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## Grassbur (Nov 11, 2011)

I have a power supply that has a built in Overload shut off. If the short occurs causing a power surge it will automatically shut off the power source. The Timer sounds like a good idea. Hey there is an idea for an iphone app! lol

How do you have your cells wired? Is your neg feeding into the next cell?


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## kadriver (Nov 11, 2011)

The power supply has about four outputs with 3.3 volts. So I used a seperate output plug from the same power supply.


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## Grassbur (Nov 11, 2011)

Nice. My cell is getting 3.5 at the end of the Cathode wire so I was considering just hooking another cell up right behind it. Have you tried this?


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## element47 (Nov 11, 2011)

Kadriver, it would be my belief that while it appears that your supply has four orange "wires" coming out of it rated at 3.3 volts, they are simply four wires and not 4 "independent outputs". In other words, if you were open the box your supply came in, internally, you would see that those 4 wires go to the same place inside. Or, if you were to remove AC power from the supply and measure ohms from one of those four orange wires to any other, you would get zero ohms (you of course never really get zero ohms, you always get like .2 or .3 ohms which is the resistance of your test leads. Some meters allow you to zero that out just like scales allow you to "tare" out a mass you wish to weigh to zero out the weight of the container) 

Now the question is, how can those four wires be converted to "independent outputs". This matters in your case because with the type of load a cell presents to a power supply, I strongly suspect you will encounter "load swamping". In practice, it may not matter critically, but if you are asking and if you wish to keep your setup producing predictable results....

You need to supply a current-limiting resistor in series with each "leg" or each cell you are driving. The following diagrams should explain this. Basically, the power will not share "equitably" without such current-limiting resistors. The cell with the lower resistance will hog the great majority of the power. Will it matter? Maybe not, maybe the higher resistance/lower voltage cell will just take longer to plate out your silver than the other one. But it terms of correct practice, you should have BOTH a current limiting resistor AND a fuse in series with each cell. (In the diagrams below, your cell is represented by the LED symbol because I have stolen said images) Same "swamping" consideration. The lower resistance item will hog most of the current/power without a current limiting resistor. By the way....there would be NO such limitation if you hooked up the cells in SERIES, though since each cell would be getting "half" of 3.3 volts, 1.65 volts might not be enough to run the reaction. Is there a 5 volt portion of your supply? That would solve the "splitting 3.3 volts in half" issue. 

You could also place another (ordinary, non light-emitting) diode in series with each cell. But it would have to be somewhat of a highish current device, I am thinking at LEAST 5 amps and probably 10. It/they would of course have to be correctly polarized or they would not conduct. In other words, the "bar" side of the diode has to go towards the "lower volts" wire of your supply.


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## niteliteone (Nov 11, 2011)

Kadriver
If this is the same power supply as in your "power supply demo" from oct 10, 2011, it has a current rating of 28 amps on the 3.3v side and each one of the orange wires used will take it’s share from the 28 amps.

As a simple solution take 2 orange leads and connect together, then run through a 10 amp fuse or breaker in series with your cell. Also be sure to use 2 black leads for each cell also.

Do the same for the second cell and you should be just fine.

No need for any current limiting or voltage dropping circuits that will change any part of the process you have already developed and use. Your only adding a fuse or circuit breaker

Each cell with its own resistance will only pull the current needed to operate, with the fuse or breaker limiting the maximum draw to the 10 amps.

Two cells will operate in parallel, each receiving 3.3v @10 amp max. Total load on power supply will be limited to 20 amp max. well below the 28 amp maximum for the power supply. 

I hope the description is understandable. If drawing is needed, let me know.
Tom C.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 11, 2011)

Grassbur,

I always wired 2 cells, or more, in series. 

The current is what does the work. It makes the silver deposit on the cathode, dissolves the anodes and, therefore, is much more important than the voltage. In a series circuit, the current is constant throughout the components in the circuit and the voltage is additive. Therefore, if the meter says 10A, you know that 10A are being applied to each cell. 

In parallel, the current is additive and the voltage is constant (who cares). Therefore, if the meter reads 10A, you only know that the total current in the 2 cells is 10A. Unless the 2 cells are identical (hard to do) in their resistances, the current in each cell is different. You might have 4.5A in the first cell and 5.5 in the 2nd.

When I ganged 3, 30 gal silver cells together, I wired them in series to a 250A, 12V rectifier. Therefore, I could run 250A and up to 4V, average, in each cell. In parallel, one could get 12V in each cell and only an average of 83A. Of course, to get in the ballpark of 250A in each cell, I could have bought a 750A/4V rectifier (if I could find one), and run the tanks in parallel.

I like series.


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## kadriver (Nov 11, 2011)

I understand each post - thanks for the guidance you guys.

Putting a fuse inline sounds like a good idea.

Both cells seem to be working fine after 24 hours of constant operation.

Here is a question; If I measure the amps across each cell and get say 4 amps, can I safely use a 7 amp or 8 amp fuse?

Having a fuse in there would save me lots of work if the crystals were to bridge the cathode and anode again.

I understand that I have these two cells in parallel curcuits right now.

I understand that this splits the amps between the two cells.

If I ran in series, then how would this be accomplished? 

After connecting the orange lead from the power supply to the anode on cell one, would I then run the cathode lead from cell one to the anode lead of cell two, then connect the cathode of cell two to the black wire from the power supply? Is it that simple?

This series wiring would allow full current flow through each cell - correct?

Having full current flow will speed the formation of silver crystals, or using a parallel wiring setup, like I seem to have now, will slow down crystal formation - are these statements true?

I am good with mechanical, but I am not good with electricity. While in the Navy an electronics tech said this to me, "Wires have smoke in them, the trick is to not let the smoke out."

This pretty much describes the extent of my electrical training.

I also have another PC power supply that I could use.

For now, all is well and my output should nearly double. But if I can speed the production of silver crystals up, then I will make the necessary changes to make that happen.

Thanks for the valuable input from all of you.

kadriver


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## niteliteone (Nov 12, 2011)

kadriver said:


> Here is a question; If I measure the amps across each cell and get say 4 amps, can I safely use a 7 amp or 8 amp fuse?
> *Correct*
> 
> Having a fuse in there would save me lots of work if the crystals were to bridge the cathode and anode again.
> ...



Having maximum current flow will give the fastest crystal growth.

Using the parallel wiring setup will allow the fastest crystal growth in each individual cell while isolating each cell from the other.

Using the parallel wiring setup will allow maximum current flow to each cell.

The current flow is regulated by the resistance of the electrolyte. Even though the power supply will max out at 28 amps, the cell can only use what the resistance will allow.

Lower resistance = higher current

Assume this to be your parallel cell
If cell 1 has 10 ohms resistance at 3.3 volt the current will be 0.33 amp
If cell 2 has 15 ohms resistance at 3.3 volt the current will be 0.22 amp
Load on power supply is 6 ohms resistance at 3.3 volt and 0.55 amp

Now connect in a series circuit
Cell 1 + 2 has 25 ohms resistance at 3.3 volt the current will be 0.132 amp
Cell one has 0.132 amp x 10 ohms and the voltage will be 1.32 volt.
Cell two has 0.132 amp x 15 ohms and the voltage will be 1.98 volt.
Load on power supply is 25 ohms resistance at 3.3 volts and 0.132 amp.

Theoretically the parallel circuit will give more current flow. So if it is the current flow that controls the speed of growth the parallel circuit is the way to go.
However if lower voltage and lower current will cause slower growing but more dense crystals then that is the way to go.

As long as you add the fuses the smoke will stay in the wires. :shock:  :lol: 

Ok guys, I'm ready for it. :shock: 
I can take it.  
Please point out any mistakes in my math or logic or share with the forum your practical experience. ( agree's or disagree's)
Tom C.

edit spelling


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## butcher (Nov 12, 2011)

One thing to consider if you are trying to run two cells in parallel,
In parallel circuits the voltage is the same (voltage drop on each cell) the current divides.

The resistance in these cells is constantly changing, and two resistances in parallel circuit would not divide evenly, but split according to each cells resistance, this can make a situation where one cell starts getting more current than the other (which will again change its resistance and the other cell stops working cascading the problem. 

In the series cells the same current flows through both cells and the voltage divides determined by the cells resistance.

Since these are current driven cells my thinking is series would perform better, parallel cells would create work trying to keep the juggling act balanced.

Notice in the LED picture above how trying to run the LED's in parallel will burn out the lights as one LED will start hogging the current from the power supply and burn itself up.


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## kadriver (Nov 12, 2011)

I am beginning to think that I may just convert another PC power supply and stack it onto the other and use two individual power supplies. I have several laying around in my shop.

I want to leave it setup as it is right now and record the results of using the power supply in parallel.

When it comes time to harvest the silver I will configure the power differently and see if I get a different quantity of silver over the same period of time.



niteliteone said:


> The current flow is regulated by the resistance of the electrolyte. Even though the power supply will max out at 28 amps, the cell can only use what the resistance will allow.



If the resistance to flow of current is low (as determined by the concentration of the electrolyte), then the amps will be higher. If my electrolyte is weak in concentration, then the resistance to current flow will be higher, and current flow will be reduced - right?

niteliteon, I like you examples. I can see how the math works and derive some knowlege from these equations.

Thanks to all for your help.

kadriver


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 12, 2011)

niteliteone & kadriver,

If you had a PS that would only provide 10A, plus enough voltage to overcome the total resistance, the total amps applied in 2 cells in series would be 20A, if the full 10A were applied. In a parallel circuit, you would only get 10A total of the 2 cells. Thus, from the same PS, you would dissolve and deposit twice as much silver in the series circuit. If you applied 10A, you would get about 80g of silver per hour in a series arrangement and only 40g/hr in parallel. To get the same maximum silver production from a parallel circuit as you would from a series circuit, it would take a PS twice as large.

If the connections are all tight and the right size wiring, etc., is used, there will be little resistance. In series, if the electrode surface areas are not the same in the 2 cells, you could get varying crystal characteristics, due to the different current densities. It is best to try to make the 2 cells as identical as possible.


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## niteliteone (Nov 12, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> niteliteone & kadriver,
> 
> If you had a PS that would *only provide 10A*, plus enough voltage to overcome the total resistance, the total amps applied in 2 cells in series *would be 20A*, if the full 10A were applied. In a parallel circuit, you would only get 10A total of the 2 cells. *Thus, from the same PS, you would dissolve and deposit twic*e as much silver in the series circuit. If you applied 10A, you would get *about 80g *of silver per hour in a series arrangement and only 40g/hr in parallel. To get the same maximum silver production from a parallel circuit as you would from a series circuit, it would take a PS twice as large.
> 
> ...


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## niteliteone (Nov 12, 2011)

In the example above: Posted by kadriver November 11th, 2011, 9:25 pm
I was using equipment already in use. The voltage is already defined (3.3V), the cell current draw is already defined (4A), this means the system resistance is (0.825 ohm) and the process already produces a crystal growth.

I am assuming that this is per cell in a parallel system.
Cell 1 has 3.3V and draws 4A this means the total resistance is 0.825 ohm
Cell 2 has 3.3V and draws 4A this means the total resistance is 0.825 ohm
So this system is consuming 13.2W of power  

Now let’s rearrange this system to a series system.
Cell 1+2 is now going to read 3.3V divided between 2 cells, the total resistance is going to be 1.65 ohm, so the current will only be 2A 

Cell 1 has 1.65V and resistance of 0.825 ohm this means the current is 2A
Cell 2 has 1.65V and resistance of 0.825 ohm this means the current is 2A
So this system will consume 6.6W of power :shock: 

In this example of actual equipment being used by this member, 
You can clearly see that the parallel circuit produces twice the work as the series circuit. :mrgreen: 
W = watts = actual work done. A real and measurable number.
The parallel circuit clearly has twice the current flow to each cell.
The power supply is fully capable to handle the load safely. :idea: :shock: :?: 

If this system were to be connected in series the resistance of each cell is additive.
So only half the current will flow.
Only half the work will be done.
Only half the growth will happen.

Again open to feedback. I can handle good or not. Always open to new knowledge.

Tom C


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## HAuCl4 (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi GSP. On a tangent topic re. silver cells. 
Do you know of any closed circuit process for re-cycling and cleaning the electrolyte continuously in a silver cell or is it better done at intervals/in batches?. :?: 
Someone asked me, and I told him my opinion was it was simpler and cheaper to replace a portion of the electrolyte every so often, but I'm not certain it is the best answer.


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## kadriver (Nov 12, 2011)

I added a jumper wire and wired the cells in series earlier this afternoon.

When I checked it after about 2 hours, I thought the crystals had stopped growing. But after looking closer, I saw that they were actually growing much thicker and lower down in the container.

The crystals (when it was parallel) were thin and would built up quickly.

This slow thick crystal growth is much more desireable as I won't have to keep tending the cell to knock the crystals down as often.

I checked the voltage and it was 3.34 volts DC. I have a good meter, but I think the fuse for the amps is blown so I can't check that.

I am very pleased with this new series wiring configuration. I think this is the way to go.

I clipped both orange leads on the anode of _cell one_, and both black leads to the cathode of _cell two_.

I then put a nice fat jumper wire that runs from the cathode of _cell one_ to the the anode of _cell 2_.

I think someone earlier in the post recommended doing this, I guess to allow for a higher flow of current.

I should be able to get about 50 troy ounces in 4 or 5 days.

Thanks you guys!

kadriver


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## niteliteone (Nov 12, 2011)

kadriver said:


> I think someone earlier in the post recommended doing this, I guess to allow for a higher flow of current.
> 
> I should be able to get about 50 troy ounces in 4 or 5 days.
> 
> ...



Actually for a lower flow of current. :shock: 
The current should now be 1/2 as much as it was in the parallel circuit and the voltage in each cell will be 1/2 of what it was also.

I mentioned this in my earlier post, but the part I don't know the answer to is "will you get the weight per time ratio you were getting with the parallel circuit"
I guess you can run a time trial to figure out which wiring method will produce more weight per time period. Series vs Parallel.

Thicker crystals are easier to work with, but if you are needing quantity it would be good to know which method would produce more ounces per hour of usable crystals.

Also note that what happens in each cell will affect the other cell in series. If one cell shorts it then applies full voltage and current to the other cell which will produce as fast as a single cell in parallel. :shock: This can cause it to quickly short out as well if not caught in time.

I'll let you get back to eork for since I saw the weekend load you have to start working on. Some guys get all the luck.  :mrgreen: 
Wish I had someone to go out and find treasures for me. 8) Tell your wife what a good job she is doing . 8) 

Tom C.


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## kadriver (Nov 12, 2011)

She found another 2800 grams of nice sterling flatware in a wooden case earlier this past week.

Thankfully she wanted to keep it (I am almost getting tired of digesting silver). She went to her stash (in a bank safety deposit box) and gave me 60 grams of 14k gold to work with and she kept the flatware.

She keeps a box full of gold (and I don't even get to look at the key). When she buys something she "reimburses" me to cover the cost of what she has spent.

This woman is amazing. She also found over 380 grams of sterling jewelry and about 12 grams of 14k and 6 grams of 10k scrap this morning - all at local yardsales.

She is bringing in the metal faster that I can refine it.

But this probably won't last for long. We are entering out slack period - Thanksgiving to about the middle of Feb.

I don't know why, but the metals just seem to dry up during this period.

Thanks - kadriver


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## niteliteone (Nov 13, 2011)

kadriver said:


> She is bringing in the metal faster that I can refine it.
> 
> But this probably won't last for long. We are entering out slack period - Thanksgiving to about the middle of Feb.
> 
> ...



Pace yourself and Stockpile. :mrgreen:

Tom C.


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## Harold_V (Nov 13, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> If you had a PS that would only provide 10A, plus enough voltage to overcome the total resistance, the total amps applied in 2 cells in series would be 20A,


Not true. Voltage and cell resistance dictate current flow, which, combined, will be only as great as the meter indicates, with the cells combined. 

Ohms law dictates that it takes one volt to push one amp through one ohm of resistance. Cells in series require greater voltage to operate, so if you produce ten amps, silver production by the combined cells would be no greater than if you ran a single cell at the same amperage. You do NOT gain amperage by running in series. If that was the case, you could use a ten amp power supply to operate any number of cells, multiplying the silver production by the number of cells involved. It doesn't work that way. 

Series cells require greater voltage to produce greater amperage. Parallel cells require constant (and low) voltage, but a huge amperage capability. The resistance of multiple cells in parallel will be lower than that of a single cell. 

Fusing is to eliminate problems from shorting. If cells are allowed to operate without constant supervision, especially if copper content rises, crystal production changes to fine silver wire production, which grows rapidly. That creates a perfect opportunity for the cell to short. You risk burning out the power supply (if it's not fused).

Be aware---if you short your cell, pretty good chance you will have burned a hole in the filter basket (don't ask). That will require that all of the silver produced to be reprocessed to eliminate the contamination that is released. 

Harold


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## niteliteone (Nov 13, 2011)

niteliteone said:


> In this example of actual equipment being used by this member,
> You can clearly see that the parallel circuit produces twice the work as the series circuit. :mrgreen:
> W = watts = actual work done. A real and measurable number.
> The parallel circuit clearly has twice the current flow to each cell.
> ...



Harold, 
or others that know, :shock: 
Thank you for joining in on the conversation. I understand the electrical functions completely. The part I don’t understand for sure is the reactions of crystal growth with the various configurations. 

I will not have enough silver (until end of the year) to do any comparative experiments. But for the sake of this thread a few more observations would help to clarify a few points.

By adding a second cell equal to the first but in *paralle*l, I will have doubled my total output of fine thread silver crystals.

By adding a second cell equal to the first but in *series*, I will *not *increase the total output of silver crystals as with one cell, only they will be thicker due to the lower voltage and current of this configuration.

*Assuming all these statements are correct can I summarize that:*
By adding a second cell in parallel I will double my output of pure .999 silver crystals.
By adding a second cell in series I will “not” increase my output but only make thicker .999 silver crystals.

Hopefully I have written this clear enough. :shock: 

Thanks for any input 
Tom C.


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## Oz (Nov 13, 2011)

It is worth remembering that the supposed intention is to purify silver. Changing the voltage “seen” by individual cells (whether in series or parallel) or your anode-cathode gap to solely increase grams per hour on the cathode will effect what impurities will also plate out on your cathode with your silver.

Do not lose sight of your goal, is it production mass or purity?


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## niteliteone (Nov 13, 2011)

Oz said:


> It is worth remembering that the supposed intention is to purify silver. Changing the voltage “seen” by individual cells (whether in series or parallel) or your anode-cathode gap to solely increase grams per hour on the cathode will effect what impurities will also plate out on your cathode with your silver.
> 
> Do not lose sight of your goal, is it production mass or purity?



Oz,
Actually I am wanting both. :shock: 
But I do understand what you are saying about speed vs quality.
And the .999 minimum is a must.

My curiosity is with the 2 setups as described. I can see that slower growth can give a more pure crystal, but with the simple setup as described, wouldn't the slower growth also slow the output quantity in ounces with one setup versus the other.

At this point in time I am after consistant .999 purity and steady output. To add more quantity I am looking for the best way to do this. Thus the second cell addition. 

Tom C.


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## philddreamer (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks for reminding us. It's easy to get deep into the investigating, & find "this or that" & get side tracked.

I used the voltage & amp's that GSP recommended & I had an assayer confim .999 purity. If one follows these, it should garanteee high purity. 

I quote from GSP:
"The speed is proportional to the amperage. At most, each amp applied will both dissolve and deposit about 4 grams of silver per hour. However, for best results, the amps used should be limited to about 10 amps per gallon of solution and about .35 amps per square inch of anode surface area, only calculating the side of the anode facing the cathode. At that amperage (actually, current density), the voltage will fall between 3-4V in a well constructed cell. 

For best purity, operate within those parameters. Also, the silver in solution shouldn't be allowed to drop below about 25g/l and the copper should be kept below about 80g/l. Chris"

I hope it helps.

Phil


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## Oz (Nov 13, 2011)

Most of you may have noticed that I am lacking of time to write much here lately so I cannot write in great detail when posting. 

Amperage is not all that critical as to the purity of the deposit you will obtain. Amperage is what does the work however being the main factor in the grams per amp hour you produce. The amperage your cell draws compared to the surface area of anode you have exposed to the cathode is a good indicator of your cell functioning properly, and you would not want to draw too many amps with too little electrolyte and heat your cell up. 

What you really need to watch as to purity of the silver deposit vs. the contaminates your electrolyte contains is your voltage. Some of you were playing around with parameters that would affect voltage. Changing anode to cathode gap has the same affect as changing voltage due to the resistance of your electrolyte. It is the voltage that is key to what metals you will selectively deposit from your electrolyte at the cathode.


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## element47 (Nov 13, 2011)

> I added a jumper wire and wired the cells in series earlier this afternoon.



Nice! I am glad this arrangement worked out well for you. Now we can talk about series-parallel. Argggh!!

No, I won't start. 

This (TWO cells in series) is IMO a slightly superior setup, particularly if it produces the preferable size of crystals. Can we group-conclude that lower volts produce heavier, thicker crystals and fewer hair-thin crystals that have a greater tendency to short and thus have to be knocked off the cathode more often or require more supervision? 

The limitation, as I see it, is that I don't think with 3.3 volts you can place any more than 2 cells in series; I don't have the hard numbers, but *most* chemical reactions require a volt and a fraction to drive them; if you divided up your 3.3 volts into three "allegedly" equal "backwards-batteries" (which is what you have) then the 1.1 volts might be right on the hairy edge of what would work.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 13, 2011)

C'mon guys, think!

I'm going to try and explain this one more time. My last post (reread it) was 100% correct, no matter what anyone says. I know this from actually doing this, in very large production, for about 45 years.

First of all, let's assume that you have a real plating rectifier. This is a one knob, one ammeter, one voltmeter, one fuse, rectifier - not one where you can set the voltage and amperage independently. With this rectifier, you can either set the voltage or the amperage. If you adjust the amperage you want on the ammeter, the voltage reading on the voltmeter adjusts automatically, according to the resistance in the system, according to Ohm's law. In series, the amperage you read on the ammeter is 100% applied to every component (cells) in the circuit. If the ammeter reads 10A and, whether there is 1 cell or 12 silver cells in series, each cell will have 10 amps applied to it and each amp in each cell will produce about 4g of silver per hour. However, the total voltage is divided, depending on the resistances in each cell

In a place I worked, we had 12 silver cells, to each of which we wanted to provide 200-250 amps. This was based on providing about 50A/sq.ft. of anode area. We knew that, at that current density, we would need from 3 to 4 volts per cell. We bought 4 ea, 12V, 250 amp rectifiers to supply all 12 cells. We rigged 3 cells, in series, to each rectifier. The result was that each of these 3 cells would draw about 4V (1/3 of 12) and 250A. The ammeter only read 250A across the 3 cells. The result was that, in series, with 3 cells, the silver production was triple what it would have been running only one cell, from the same rectifier, at 250A. No argument. 

From these 4 rectifiers running 12 cells in series (3 per rectifier), we got about 6,000 oz every 24 hours. If we had only run one cell off each rectifier, we would have gotten only 2,000 oz/24 hours. If we had run all 12 cells, 3 on each rectifier, in parallel, we would have only gotten 2,000 oz/24 hours. In parallel, the only way we could have gotten 6,000 oz/24 hours was to have 4 ea, 4V (or, more), 750A rectifiers - much more expensive.


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## niteliteone (Nov 13, 2011)

Thank you guy's,
Not sure if others have any questions on this subject, but you have shared the information I needed to understand the results on crystal production with the different setups. :mrgreen: 

Now can you explain the ups and downs of a series-parallel setup :?: 
Just kidding :shock: :lol: 

Aside from Hoke's book is their any other good reference books or literature you would recommend on electrolytic processes?

Again thank's for the great feedback. 
Oz, thank's for taking the time. I owe you.

Tom C.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 13, 2011)

niteliteone said:


> Thank you guy's,
> Not sure if others have any questions on this subject, but you have shared the information I needed to understand the results on crystal production with the different setups. :mrgreen:
> 
> Now can you explain the ups and downs of a series-parallel setup :?:
> ...



You still don't believe me, do you? 

All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.


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## niteliteone (Nov 14, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> You still don't believe me, do you?
> 
> All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.



I do believe, without question.
I am wanting to learn and understand the overall process fully. I now understand some on how current density affects crystal structure.
How does a pulsed DC waveform affect the electron flow and what influence would that have on overall crystal structure. :shock: Just kidding
I would like to read material that could give me a hint on if that is even a posibility in electrolytic refining.

Just searching for more knowledge, that's all.

Tom C.

edit: forgot to add quote


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## Oz (Nov 14, 2011)

goldsilverpro said:


> All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.


I think some are confused by this thinking there is a free lunch to be had by getting triple the amps with 3 cells. Correct me if I am wrong here GSP but you are regulating the amperage with a plating rectifier. Since you are setting the amps, if 1 cell at a certain set amperage drew 3 volts, then 3 cells in series would need 9 volts to maintain the same amperage seen by each cell.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 14, 2011)

Oz said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> > All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.
> ...



Correct. There is no free lunch. The amps are the same but it takes triple the voltage. It takes triple the power = volts x amps.


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2011)

I have been running these two cells in series for about 36 hours now. The crystal formation is slow, but the crystals are big and fat.

I am using 3.3 volts from one PC power supply to run both cells.

In the parallel setup, I used two orange wires and two black wires. Each of the two cells got one orange and one black wire.

After connecting the cells in series, I used both orange wires connected to the anode of cell one, and both black wires connected to the cathode of cell two.

I then added a large jumper wire and connected the cathode from cell one to the anode in cell two.

I checked the voltage across both cells - one test lead on the anode of cell one, and the other on the cathode of cell two. The reading was 3.3 volts.

But after reading all this dialog about electrical theory posted above, I have become concerned and I have a question: 

If I am driving both of these cells with 3.3 volts, then is it correct to conclude that each cell is only getting half that voltage? Only 1.65 volts to each cell?

If this conclusion is correct, then is there a risk of plating out other metals into my silver with this lower voltage?

I am beginning to think that I will just rig up another PC power supply and let each cell have its own power source. But then I will need to tend it more often as the crystals will be thinner and grow towards the anode basket alot faster.

The last thing I want to do is get other metals plating out in my silver!



Harold_V said:


> Be aware---if you short your cell, pretty good chance you will have burned a hole in the filter basket (don't ask). That will require that all of the silver produced to be reprocessed to eliminate the contamination that is released.



When I shorted my cell earlier in the week, I completely disassembled the cell and made new anode baskets. I used the silver crystals that had grown in the cell to make anode bars.

I am not a big fan of re-using the anode filters even after they have been thoroughly cleaned. They are inexpensive and I get a measure of confidence knowing that the filters are brand new. I always double bag using two filter bags, one inside the other.

Any input would be greatly appreciated - kadriver


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## Harold_V (Nov 14, 2011)

niteliteone said:


> In this example of actual equipment being used by this member,
> You can clearly see that the parallel circuit produces twice the work as the series circuit. :mrgreen:


Only if twice the number of amps are delivered. You would be limited by the power supply. If it's large enough, yes, you would double production. 



> W = watts = actual work done. A real and measurable number.


 Not exactly a measure of how much work is done. Watts are calculated by multiplying voltage by amperage. While this is a far fetched example, if a cell required 120 volts to operate, and delivered five amps, that would be 600 watts. The amount of work done would be based on the five amps, not the wattage. In real life, you likely run at 3 volts. Lets use 3 volts for our example. At 3 volts, assuming you had the capability, you could push 200 amps (that's 600 watts). You'd be producing 40 times as much silver in that scenario. 



> The parallel circuit clearly has twice the current flow to each cell.
> The power supply is fully capable to handle the load safely. :idea: :shock: :?:
> 
> If this system were to be connected in series the resistance of each cell is additive.
> ...


Correct. It is for that reason one needs higher voltage applied, to overcome the added resistance. When the appropriate voltage is applied, amperage will have been doubled, as will the wattage measured. Series cells must have a variable voltage power supply in order to achieve efficient operation. 



> I will not have enough silver (until end of the year) to do any comparative experiments. But for the sake of this thread a few more observations would help to clarify a few points.
> 
> By adding a second cell equal to the first but in *paralle*l, I will have doubled my total output of fine thread silver crystals.


Correct, assuming you have the amperage required. 



> By adding a second cell equal to the first but in *series*, I will *not *increase the total output of silver crystals as with one cell, only they will be thicker due to the lower voltage and current of this configuration.


Correct, at least I think so. How crystals develop is somewhat a mystery. Were it not, everyone could grow them large, and few understand the procedure. In my experience, cutting voltage (similar to adding cells in series) did create a more dense crystal, but my constant experience in running my cell dictated that fine crystals are the result of a high copper content. Keep the copper low, on non-existent, and you stand a better chance of growing dense crystals. 



> *Assuming all these statements are correct can I summarize that:*
> By adding a second cell in parallel I will double my output of pure .999 silver crystals.


Again, assuming you have the amperage at your disposal, yes, that's correct. If you do not, you'll run the power supply at what amounts to a dead short, or very nearly so. 



> By adding a second cell in series I will “not” increase my output but only make thicker .999 silver crystals.


I hesitate to make a blanket statement that you will grow thicker crystals. You may, or you may not. Dunno. One thing you won't do is accomplish as much work, because you've added more resistance to the circuit, so you won't even deliver as much amperage as you did with a single cell. Raise the voltage and that all changes. 



> Hopefully I have written this clear enough. :shock:


Yep! Clear enough for me to understand your (well thought out) points. 

Harold


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2011)

Here is a couple more question for the forum:

One cell all by itself runs fine on the 3.3 volt rail of the PC power supply.

Since I have wired two silver cells in series it seems (from the discussion above) that there won't be enough voltage from the 3.3 volt rail of the power supply to give the correct voltage to both cells. I am concerned that this lower voltage could result in other metals plating out with the silver. 

Is this a justifiable concern?

Also, it would seem that I am going to need higher voltage to get the the proper amount of volts going to each of the two cells. 

Could I just switch from the 3.3 volt - 28 amp rail to the 5 volt - 30 amp rail on the power supply?

Going by what was said earlier in the post, this would give me 2.5 volts to each cell (rather than 1.65 volts from the 3.3 volt rail). Not ideal, but closer to what it should be.

Am I on the right track with my thought process? My electrical knowlege is sorely deficient (but that can change, and must).

Finally, since I plan to greatly increase my silver production, should I invest in a nice variable power supply? Where can a good one be found?

I plan on building a large stainless steel silver cell in the near future so I would want to get a variable power supply that would power the larger stainless steel cell, as well as power a smaller cell.

I am so thankful that this forum exists - Noxx hit a home run when he came up with the idea to create it.

My refining activities have turned into a career of sorts. We are starting to depend on the income it produces.

Thanks to Noxx and all the other helpful members of the Gold Refining Forum.

kadriver


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## niteliteone (Nov 14, 2011)

Good morning kadriver,
I didn’t mean to open a big can of concern on this subject. :shock: 

I was just trying to get a little more in depth knowledge of the relationship of the different electrical configurations and what to expect as an outcome.

I don’t know the answer you need, but I would assume from reading here your current setup should be fine.
Tom C.


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## niteliteone (Nov 14, 2011)

Thank You,
Harold, GSP, Oz, element47, Phil, kadriver,
Thank you all for the great replies. You have given me clarity to this part of the equation. I now know how to build my power supply. I will save other questions for when I have my system up and running and I start experimenting with different configurations.

I like the idea of growing the crystals and I want to try different things to alter crystal growth, hoping I can manipulate parameters of the cell in order to get particular formations (like a broad leaf fern for example). 

I don’t like the feeling that I have to “hook up a cell and just have to accept” what comes out of it. So I am trying to understand all aspects of what goes on in the process so as to be able to predict with some certainty what to expect to happen.

I have searched the forum and found a lot of information on the subject, but I want more in depth information on the overall processes of electromotive refining (silver, gold, etc…). That was why I am asking for recommendations of reading material. 

To Google books on the subject I got 1.18 million results and was hoping to get the list narrowed down to a few good and truly helpful books, not to reflect badly to the group. I fully plan on sharing all information I learn with all that want to know.

Tom C.


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## Palladium (Nov 14, 2011)

Tom, i noticed you mentioned PWM in one of your post. Instead of controlling the amperage you could control the duration of the amperage. I to was wondering about the effects of such.


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2011)

I was just reviewing Lazersteve's video entitled "Silver Refining A to Z".

In the video, the second segment entitled "Electrolytic Silver Refining Cell" he states that the voltage should be kept at 1.5v to 3v DC to form the hardest crystals. The results I am experiencing comfirms this. 

If my calculations are correct, and each cell is getting half the 3.3v DC from the power supply, then I am in range with 1.65v DC (3.3v divided by 2 = 1.65v).

The crystals are forming nicely and they are much bigger than I have ever seen them.

I have not touched the cell to knock down crystals since I wired the cells in series. The crystals grow outward (much fatter) instead of upward toward the anode basket.

kadriver


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## niteliteone (Nov 14, 2011)

Palladium said:


> Tom, i noticed you mentioned PWM in one of your post. Instead of controlling the amperage you could control the duration of the amperage. I to was wondering about the effects of such.



Thank you palladium,
I’m glad I had mentioned the pulsed DC waveform. :shock: I put it out as a joke but to hear it might actually be relative to some extent or not, now leaves me with something else to experiment with.  
I will try to design a variable pulse modulation circuit into my power supply. So far the parameters I have are 0.5 to 5 volt, 0 to 50 amp and now variable pulse modulation. I’m thinking 0 to 400 Hz ?

Since this is off topic of the thread I’ll stop before I cause confusion for other readers. I’ll follow up on this in a new thread after I start processing material after New Year’s hangover. :twisted: 

Thanks for all the help guys.
Tom C.


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## niteliteone (Nov 14, 2011)

kadriver said:


> The crystals are forming nicely and they are much bigger than I have ever seen them.
> 
> I have not touched the cell to knock down crystals since I wired the cells in series. The crystals grow outward (much fatter) instead of upward toward the anode basket.
> 
> kadriver



Pictures.
I want to see pictures of your latest babies. :shock: 

Kidding,  
But I would like to see the change caused by the series configuration. 
Are you getting the increased output in quantity that you were looking for or is it to early to know.

Tom C.


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## philddreamer (Nov 14, 2011)

I was just about to ask the same question. 

With my half galon cell I had a deposition of 1.2 T ounces or 37.32g/hr. I was expecting 28g/hr. , 25% more crystal deposition than expected!

It would be interesting to know how much you get in your dual cells.

Thanks!

Phil


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## niteliteone (Nov 14, 2011)

Phil,
Do you have a thread on your cell I can look at :?: 

Thanks
Tom C.


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## philddreamer (Nov 14, 2011)

Yes indeed Tom,

Board Index - SILVER - "Half Gallon Silver Cell"

Phil


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## metatp (Nov 14, 2011)

niteliteone said:


> I like the idea of growing the crystals and I want to try different things to alter crystal growth, hoping I can manipulate parameters of the cell in order to get particular formations (like a broad leaf fern for example).


Do you mean like these ones? I run the cell the same way all the time, but one batch made a bunch of fan like ones, but once I put new anodes in there, they changed. I also made some thick spear/sword like ones. I thought I know how it happened, but when I tried to reproduce, I could not. they look a lot nicer than the picture.


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## niteliteone (Nov 14, 2011)

Phil,
Thank you.
Sorry it didn't click in my head that that was your post you were talking about.  I have it printed along with a few others and they are what got me on this tangent to begin with.

Metatp
You got it. The one in the upper left of the photo. I am wanting to learn some control of the growth so as to look like ferns or even bonsi trees.

I can't wait to get my cell up and running. You guys are great. 8) 

Tom C.


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2011)

Here is a photo of the crystals in the cell.

Note the thinner crystals at the bottom - these are how the crystals looked when I had the cells running parallel.

The top crystal formations are after converting from parallel curcuit to series curciut.

I have not have to touch either cell to knock down crystal growth since I started running in series on Sat 12 Nov 2011. For reference, today is Monday 14 Nov 2011.

The anodes are being consumed much slower though. But I am not worried about this for now. Like Oz pointed out earlier, purity is the goal.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2011)

metatp: 

Your silver crystals are gorgeous. Do you keep these for show? They look pretty neat.

kadriver


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## metatp (Nov 14, 2011)

kadriver said:


> metatp:
> 
> Your silver crystals are gorgeous. Do you keep these for show? They look pretty neat.
> 
> kadriver


So far, I keep all them. I have not made bars yet (because I like the crystals). I have a small box of the ones I like the most. See the following link from some other crystal for member of this forum.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1765


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## butcher (Nov 15, 2011)

I hope I can explain what I am thinking:

Lets make the math simple useing simple circuits and cells.
Some Ohm’s law first:
E=Volts
I=Amps
R=Ohm’s
Now for formula of these:
E/I=R
E/R=I
IxR=E

And more:
P=Watts
I=Amps
E=Volts

Some more laws:
In a series circuit with two resistors (cells) the current through the circuit (both resistors) is the same, but the voltage divides (proportional to the resistors in circuit)

In a parallel circuit the voltage is the same (on each cell or resistor) but the current divides (between the cells depending on their resistance).

(remember our silver cells resistances will change depending on conditions)

Ok now lets look at some simple circuits.
First a parallel circuit running one volt, and two cells resistance of one ohm, here the total circuit resistance is R1xR2/R1+R2 (formula for two resistors in parallel), so in our circuit our total resistance is 0.5 Ohm’s, and since from ohms law E/R=I then: 1volt/0.5 OHM=2AMP, so our total current for this circuit is 2 amps, and since we are running these cells in parallel and the (current divides in parallel circuits, and voltage is the same) also our resistance of both cells are equal 1 ohm each (not so in real world silver cells resistance would change on conditions of cells and that would also imbalance our cells and circuit read what I commented in earlier post) our cells would have one amp current through each cell (until conditions changed).

Now lets look at two series circuits:
This first circuit will use one volt, and two cells (resistors) in series, each cell resistance one ohm, here since we are running in series the cells resistance adds so: 1 ohm + 1 ohm = 2 ohm so our circuits total resistance is two ohms, now: 1 volt / 2 ohm = 0.5 amps so our each cell only getting the current (that runs through both cells in series) is one half an amp.

Wait we want more current on our cells what do we do? Keep reading this if you followed me so far and do not have a spinning head.

This second series circuit will still use the same one-ohm cells but we will raise our voltage from our power supply to two volts, so:
Our total resistance is still 2 ohms (cells in series one ohm each), according to ohms law:
2 volts/2 ohms=1 amp so now we have each cell getting one amp of current. and the voltage on each cell is one volt (or that’s their voltage drop)(remember voltage divides in series circuit).

So we see here by changing the voltage we provide from our power supply we see we can achieve the same current (if we desire) that we had when we ran these silver cells in parallel.

In parallel operations of cells the resistances will change in each cell so that one cell will start to Hog all the current, the other cell will starve.

In series operation of cells the current flows through both cells so you will not have that trouble.

My opinion run them in series, set up the parameters needed.

Now grab onto something so your head will quit spinning, I hope I made this understandable.


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## Harold_V (Nov 15, 2011)

niteliteone said:


> I will try to design a variable pulse modulation circuit into my power supply. So far the parameters I have are 0.5 to 5 volt, 0 to 50 amp and now variable pulse modulation. I’m thinking 0 to 400 Hz ?


It may be in Hoke's book, but I recall reading about a DC power supply for parting gold---that had an AC current superimposed on top of the DC current. It was reputed to help shed the buildup of silver chloride when it was a problem. The concept, apparently, has merit. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 15, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> niteliteone said:
> 
> 
> > I will try to design a variable pulse modulation circuit into my power supply. So far the parameters I have are 0.5 to 5 volt, 0 to 50 amp and now variable pulse modulation. I’m thinking 0 to 400 Hz ?
> ...



The superimposed AC was first covered in one of the Wohlwill cell patents. The original Wohlwill patents (625863, 625864) were made by Emil Wohlwill. This one (961924) was made by Heinrich Wohlwill, about 11 years later. Most probably, a relative. The purpose of the AC was to dislodge AgCl from the surface of the gold anodes, when the Ag in the alloy exceeded 6%. He also mentions using pulsed DC, instead, for the same purpose.
https://encrypted.google.com/patents?id=mM5bAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=emil+wohlwill&hl=en&ei=TWzCTvbLD-j0sQKHytC8BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAg&lr=all#v=onepage&q=emil%20wohlwill&f=false

In the definitive book, "Gold, Recovery, Properties, and Applications", by E.M. Wise, Van Nostrand, 1964, Wise says that the rms value for the AC should only slightly exceed the DC. He must be talking about the rms of the current and not the voltage. He also says that a silver content in the anodes as high as 50%, will work using the AC. Quite a claim!
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a5_t1_12&qi=BVf6G.GP9914V5YABSxLRD9AQNA_4137797828_1:455:1558&bq=author%3Dedmund%2520m%2520wise%26title%3Dgold%2E%2520recovery%252C%2520properties%2520and%2520applications


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## kadriver (Nov 15, 2011)

butcher said:


> Wait we want more current on our cells what do we do? Keep reading this if you followed me so far and do not have a spinning head.
> 
> This second series circuit will still use the same one-ohm cells but we will raise our voltage from our power supply to two volts, so:
> Our total resistance is still 2 ohms (cells in series one ohm each), according to ohms law:
> ...



butcher: 

Thank you. I am a complete mess when it comes to electrical theory - simply because I have never taken time to study it.

In my Navy career, I attended many schools for my trade. I had an instructor one time that would roll his eyes and let out sighs if students asked questions about the material he was teaching. 

I was never the recipient of this behavior, but it was painful to watch when it happened.

The result was this; you did not ask this instructor any questions because you might get an offensive gesture and many valid questions were never asked.

I don't blame the instructor - he simply did not know that his behavior was offensive - he could'nt help it.

I am still new to all this and I am still trying to figure things out. I am only an advanced beginner.

My main concern is purity of the metal. I just want it to be the best it can be. Speed is not as important, but if I can make changes that will increase speed without effecting quality, then I would be willing to make those changes.

Sorry for the rant - here is a question I have for you or anyone else on the forum:

With respect to my two, one liter silver cells, wired in series:

I am currently using the 3.3 volt - 28 amp rail from my PC power supply. Crystal growth is slow, but they are much thicker than before when I ran in parallel (back then they were thin and needed to be knocked down frequently).

After reading your explaination, which was very easy to understand, I am thinking of changing the amount of voltage going to my series-wired cells.

I want to remove the 3.3 volt - 28 amp rail (orange wire) coming from the PC power supply and replace it the 5 volt - 30 amp rail (red wire).

According to your explaination above, this will halve the voltage (2.5 volts to each cell) and increase the amps - which should increase the speed that the crystals grow.

The voltage will be within the parameters for the strongest crystal growth (according to lazersteve 1.5v to 3v) and the amps will have increased promoting faster crystal growth - all of this without affecting quality of the silver metal!!!

This sounds like a no-brainer. But I don't want to make a mistake. I must ask these questions - is my thinking in this matter correct? Should I switch the voltage on my series-wired two cell setup from 3.3-28a to 5v-30a coming from the PC power supply? Can I expect increased crystal growth without suffering loss of purity of the silver metal?

If I have to knock down the crystals more frequently after making the above mentioned change, then so be it.

Thanks - kadriver


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## element47 (Nov 15, 2011)

Kadriver, previously, you were using 3.3 volts across one cell. You liked the speed but disliked the stringy crystals. Now, in series, you are using 3.3 volts across two cells in series, roughly dividing the voltage in half. Each cell thus "sees" 1.65 volts and you are liking the crystal formation (= fat, chunky) better. 

If you now shift to using the 5 volt output of the supply and keep them in series, each cell should see about 2.5 volts, grow silver a little faster than it does now but not quite as fast as when you were using 3.3 volts across a single cell. So as far as I can tell, without having the ability to precisely control voltage because of the nature of your power supply, that would be just about the ideal situation, the good compromise between speed and non-stringiness. Obviously: Try it! I think you'll like it. 

As a point of curiosity, I would be interested in the current consumption of your rig. I think you mentioned that the current measuring part of your meter was not working. BE CAREFUL when you measure current, that is the way people blow up meters.


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## kadriver (Nov 15, 2011)

element47 said:


> As a point of curiosity, I would be interested in the current consumption of your rig. I think you mentioned that the current measuring part of your meter was not working. BE CAREFUL when you measure current, that is the way people blow up meters.



Hello:

My meter is Wavetek handheld and only goes to 10 amps.

It has two fuses: 1) 500 milliamp and 1) 10 amp

They were both blown. I had a 500 milliamp and a 9 amp so I put these in the meter.

I set the meter for 10 amp DC, then checked amps acrosss one cell at a time (I did not know you could do this). with the voltage at 3.3v DC from the PC power supply, the reading on cell one was 1.2 amps and the reading on cell two was 0.9 amps. 

I then changed the power going to the cells from 3.3v DC to 5v DC from the PC power supply. 

I checked the volts coming from the PC power supply with no load and got a reading of 5.01v DC.

I then connected the newly installed 5v DC leads to the cells that are still wired in series. The voltage check with the cells in operation was 4.81v DC.

I rechecked the amps on each cell indivdually and this time, with 5v DC going to the cells, I got 1.8 amps on cell one, and 1.3 amps going to cell two. 

Cell one has more crystals than cell two by a slight margin.

I have learned much from this exercise.

I feel confident that this new 5v DC configuration will produce the results I am looking for.

Here is what I have learned so far:

ohm's law (volts X ohms = amps) or any combination thereof.

Crystal growth is best and thickest with cell voltage at 1.5 to 3 volts DC. The crystals grow outward and fat rather than upward towards the anode basket (eventually they will reach the anode basket, but over a longer period of time).

Increasing amperage (current flow) will increase crystal growth.

Voltage above 3v DC, but below 4v DC will grow good crystals, but they are thinner and grow upwards towards the anode basket quickly.

Voltages over 4 volts may tend to plate out other metals, if present as contamination, in the electrolyte onto the cathode in the cell.

3.3 volts DC wired in series across two 1 liter cells will divide the voltage in half giving 1.65 volts to each cell - within range of the optimal 1.5v DC to 3v DC parameter but crystal growth will be slow.

5 volts DC wired in series across two 1 liter cells will divide the voltage in half giving 2.5 volts to each cell - also within range of the optimla 1.5v DC to 3v DC parameter and crystal growth will be a little faster. 

There is an advantage using the 5v DC rail from a PC power supply when wiring two 1 liter cells in series. The crystal growth will be a little faster but the crystals will still be thicker and less likely to short the cell by reaching the anode basket to quickly.

This is the way to go! Thanks to the forum for giving me some more knowlege today.

kadriver


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## element47 (Nov 15, 2011)

> I set the meter for 10 amp DC, then checked amps acrosss one cell at a time (I did not know you could do this). with the voltage at 3.3v DC from the PC power supply, the reading on cell one was 1.2 amps and the reading on cell two was 0.9 amps.



You are doing beautifully on this, I must say. 

But I am going to needle you some on your two different amp readings and your use of the word "across" versus "through". I *think* you are placing your meter probes incorrectly. The same amount of amps HAS TO flow through the ENTIRE (series) circuit. So it should not matter *where* you measure it. By the same token, you shouldn't get those different readings on cell #1 vs cell #2...UNLESS, that is, you have turned your meter to "amps" but are not placing the probes correctly.


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## butcher (Nov 16, 2011)

Kadriver, I can describe an electrical circuit, but not silver cell crystal growth, that I am learning from you and GSP.

You may already know this, but others may not.

Make sure when measuring amperage the wire leads from your meter are plugged into the proper “jack” (many meters it is a different jack than the volts or ohms jack) not just the dial to select scale.

Never read voltage with your meter (being set up to read amps), this is why the fuses were blown; your meter is basically a dead short in amperage scale. Most all of that current goes through a shunt in the meter (a chunk of copper wire with certain resistance) with only a very small percentage of the current going through the meter movement or meter circuit.

Hooking it up to voltage (with meter set to read amps) all this voltage is going through this small piece of wire (shunt) wire with almost no resistance, basically a dead short in your hand, the meter can blow before the fuse has time to burn up.

I have had a meter blow up in my face when reading 480volts (my meter in amp scale), for this reason I always move my meters back to read A/c volt before turning it off.

As element47, was showing you, you need your amp meter in series with the circuit, to read amps. Amps go through the meter (internal shunt wire in parallel with meter movement), so your ammeter will act similar to a wire in your circuit; again I hope this is not confusing you. 

The voltage is read across the cell (no need to disconnect any wires), when you read voltage across the cell, this reading is voltage drop of the cell (how much of the total voltage being supplied to your circuit is being used by this cell).

It is a good idea to put meters in your circuit to help you monitor what is happening, radio shack use to have some panel meters at a fair price'

A series light bulb in your circuit will also help (like a 12 volt truck tail lamp), it can limit current, if your cells short out protecting your power supply (you can also choose a lamp size to deliver only a maximum wanted current for your circuit), and also give you a visual indicator as to what is happening with amperage, and your cells, I have posted on this several times (it is an old trouble shooting trick) a dead short and light is full on, no light no current, dim light low current flow. 

element47, already showed this in his drawing but sometimes when we hear it said in a different way it clicks in our head.


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## kadriver (Nov 16, 2011)

I get it. I must turn off the power supply and disconnect the positive lead going to the anode of cell one.

Then I must add the meter to the circuit to get a true reading of actual amps running throught the entire wiring setup.

To add the meter, I connect the lead coming from the power supply to the red lead of my meter (that is set to measure amps - not volts). And then connect the black lead of my meter to the anode of cell one - just like in your drawing above.

My meter has three possible lead configurations. If I have the leads set to measure amps and try to set the dial to measure volts it beeps loudly letting me know I am about to make an error.

I did measure two different amp readings across each of the cells - but I now believe that these were probably not true amps going through the entire cell setup.

I place the test leads on the anode and cathode of cell one, and then did the same on cell two. Each reading was different but not true readings - sound correct.

I am starting to get the hang of this - thanks for the help.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 16, 2011)

element47 - your drawing is the perfect aid and gives new meaning to the phrase, "a picture is worth a thousand words".

That must have taken some time to produce.



butcher said:


> element47, already showed this in his drawing but sometimes when we hear it said in a different way it clicks in our head.



This information has probably been given several times to me - even in this post. But you are right - it seems that for some reason it just flys right over the top of my head, and then, for some other unexplained reason, it sticks and sinks in.

Thank you for your patience (the ability to wait, or to continue doing something despite difficulties, or to suffer without complaining or becoming annoyed) and understanding.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 25, 2011)

Hello:

The dual series wired silver cell setup ran from fri 11 Nov to about 9am on Thur 24 Nov.

I harvested 1824 grams of silver crystals from the cells yesterday 24 Nov 2011.

I was able to produce 10 each - 5 troy ounce silver bars.

Plus I saved 250 grams of fine silver crystals for new electrolyte for my dual cell setup.

I actually use about 120 grams of silver crystals to make the electrolyte for each 1 liter cell instead of just 100 grams. I figure that thru dilution the electrolyte will diminish over time. The extra silver will compensate for this depletion.

The electrolyte in the operational cells looks good - light pale green in color, so I just restarted the cells using the same electrolyte.

I am posting a picture of the cells for all to see - they look OK to me, but I value the opinion of this forum, any input would be appreciated.

I will probably put in new electrolyte the next time I harvest regardless of the electrolyte condition just for good measure.

I have the bars for sale - one day auction - on Ebay ending around 7:30pm on Friday 25 Nov 2011. To view do an Ebay search for "hand poured silver bars".

The dual cell setup is working perfectly - I am getting twice as much at harvest time!

Thanks - kadriver


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## element47 (Nov 25, 2011)

Yes! We see that series jumper wire. 

Great story, good pix, excellent results. Nice job! I look forward to the updates. 

slight nit: That picture is captioned " after harvesting....should not the caption be "before" or "in the process of" harvesting?


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## element47 (Nov 25, 2011)

> The dual series wired silver cell setup ran from fri 11 Nov to about 9am on Thur 24 Nov.



You're saying the cell ran for 13 days??


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## MysticColby (Nov 29, 2011)

I've been looking closely at these pictures of your cells, and I have an observation/question
it looks like you have a filter bag inside a basket made out of a tupperware container with the top cut off
it's hard to see, but it looks like you drilled holes in the bottom to allow the liquid in?
I'll be starting a silver cell for the first time myself, and I wanted to base my design off yours as it looks so clean and elegant.

But a thought occurs:
wouldn't the size of those holes throttle the current traveling through the liquid?
I've read that the facing area of the anode is what you use to calculate how much current you should supply, but if those holes are smaller than the anode, those would be the limiting area and not the anode.
Maybe you'd get higher deposition with larger holes? (larger holes = lower resistance = higher current with the same voltage = more silver per same time)


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## renatomerino (Nov 29, 2011)

That is the type of electrolytic cell?


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## qst42know (Nov 29, 2011)

renatomerino said:


> That is the type of electrolytic cell?



This is an electrolytic cell for purifying silver. There are other types.


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## renatomerino (Dec 4, 2011)

I do not see the filter and its support for the various impurities that come with silver.
This is the detail of my MOEBIUS type cells but is necessary to place a cotton bag to retain the impurities that arise from the silver anode.


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## qst42know (Dec 4, 2011)

Nice looking silver you have there! 8) 

The filter is there in the photos, outside the red rimmed cup.


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## kadriver (Dec 13, 2011)

Hello:

The crystals formed in my silver cells have changed.

They are much larger and it was easier to clean them during the harvest.

I have included a picture.


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## kadriver (Dec 13, 2011)

These are the rubbermaid anode baskets that hold the filter bags to catch the silver slimes that are left behind when the anode bars have dissolved.

I cut the lid and use the outer part to secure the anode filters inside the basket.

I use a drill bit heated with a propane torch to bore holes through the basket and the filters.

I then insert a glass stirring rod through the holes and use this to suspend the anode basket in the electrolyte.


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## kadriver (Dec 13, 2011)

In this picture you can see down into the anode basket of each cell.

These are two cells wired in series.

The filters are from vacuum cleaner bags I bought al Lowes.

One vacuum cleaner filter is about $8 and I can cut it to make two anode filter bags.

Each anode basket has two filters - double bag protection with no seams or partitions of any kind to ensure none of the material (slimes) get into the pure silver metal crystals.


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## kadriver (Dec 13, 2011)

Here is a shot of the vacuum cleaner bags I use. I get them at Lowes.

They are cloth bags - not paper.

To get these to fit into the rubbermaid baskets correctly, I must de-stitch each bag and unfold all the seams. Plus there is a rubber retainer that has to be cut away.

It takes a while to de-stitch using a sharp razor. But the material is an excellent filtering material. It is thin and light weight and it is not attacked by the acid in the elctrolyte.


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## kadriver (Dec 13, 2011)

MysticColby:

I cannot answer the question concerning the holes throttling the electron flow throught the electrolyte. Maybe someone with a little more electrical knowlege can give us an answer.

If there is an advantage to larger holes, then I would be willing to modify my anode baskets to get a better yield.

If you have questions about the cells, then please ask any questions. I will be glad to share what I know to help you in any way I can.

kadriver


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## element47 (Dec 13, 2011)

How are you making electrical contact with the anode ingots? In one of the above pix it appears like there is a spike of some sort (looks kind of like an old square concrete nail) shoved into and friction-fit into a drilled hole. I think before you were using the screw-in eye-hook with those coarse threads(?) If you using such a spike or screw-eye, does that go into the top ingot of your stack or the bottom one? 

How long are your cloth filters lasting? 

You are really getting nice results, and of course your 3+ oz gold bar a day or two ago was exceptional. Oh by the way....congrats on the nice price lock! That saved you maybe $250, because gold has been viciously slaughtered the past 2 days.

I for one, really appreciate the nice photos you are taking & posting of your process, and I'll go ahead and assume that plenty of others apppreciate them as well.


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## philddreamer (Dec 13, 2011)

Element, you might have seen a pic of my cell set up. I used SS eye screws.
I don't stack my anodes, I stand them so therr's more surface exposed to the cathodes for faster deposition. 

Phil


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## kadriver (Dec 13, 2011)

element47:

The "nail" you see sticking up out of one of the anode bars is a piece of cemented silver.

I melt a small quantity of cemented silver into a 1/3 or so ounce button.

Holding the silver button with a pair of pliers, I heated it with a propane torch until it was red hot.

Then I beat it with a hammer to form a thin four sided "nail".

It resembles a piece of 1/8 inch key stock about 3 inches long when it is finished.

Once cut to proper length, I held it with a pair of vice grips suspended over my graphite mold cavity with the nail dipping down into the cavity of the mold. It is preheated until red hot with my propane torch (the propane torch also preheats the graphite mold at the same time.

Using an oxy/accet torch, I melted a sufficient quantity of cemented silver in a melt dish, then poured the molten silver metal into the graphite mold cavity with the red hot silver "nail" suspended in it.

The molten silver immediately welds to the red hot silver "nail" suspended in the mold producing a solid connection between the bar and the silver "nail".

I use the nail as a connecting point for the alligator clips coming from the power supply for my silver cell.

Hope this explains it well enough.

I will probably make a short video to demonstrate how I make these silver nails. If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video is worth a million!

Thanks - kadriver


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## kadriver (Dec 13, 2011)

Element47, with respect to the saving of $250:

This time I came out on top, but I have lost just as much if not more in the past when the price movement went the wrong direction for me.

I have come to terms with the fact that these price swings are are part of the business we are in and there is no way to accurately predict their movement. 

There is nothing that can be done about them, so I have learned to accept the good with the bad - it comes with the territory, as they say.

kadriver


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## Palladium (Dec 13, 2011)

I like videos. 8)


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## niteliteone (Dec 14, 2011)

kadriver said:


> Here is a shot of the vacuum cleaner bags I use. I get them at Lowes.
> 
> They are cloth bags - not paper.
> 
> ...




kadriver
Your a life saver. 
I've been looking all over the site for a cheap local source for filters for my cell. everyone local just looks at me all funny then sends me somewhere else.

Thanks
Tom C.


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## Grassbur (Dec 15, 2011)

another option that 4metals had posted in a sulfer cell thread for stripping gold plated materials is http://www.anodeproducts.com.

I myself have ordered some bags from them and the manager there is very friendly.


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## Lobby (Feb 23, 2012)

kadriver said:


> I have the bars for sale - one day auction - on Ebay ending around 7:30pm on Friday 25 Nov 2011. To view do an Ebay search for "hand poured silver bars".
> 
> Thanks - kadriver



I just searched on eBay. There's a bunch of "hand poured silver bars" on sale there. And if one checks completed auctions, you'll find that they sell OVER spot! That's that most amazing thing I ever heard of.


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## Geo (Feb 23, 2012)

Lobby said:


> kadriver said:
> 
> 
> > I have the bars for sale - one day auction - on Ebay ending around 7:30pm on Friday 25 Nov 2011. To view do an Ebay search for "hand poured silver bars".
> ...



they sell over spot because of the excellent appearance of the bars and kadriver has built a reputation of having good quality material. people buy them speculating that the price of silver will go up and i believe they are right. it may not be a dramatic increase but a steady climb, we will see.


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## Lobby (Feb 23, 2012)

Geo said:


> Lobby said:
> 
> 
> > kadriver said:
> ...



It actually looks to me like 1 oz rounds and bars of "commercial quality" are selling for $40 right now (with Ag at $34.31), yet 1 oz hand poured bars are selling at about $45. And it's not just Kadriver, but everyone.

Astounding...


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## Geo (Feb 23, 2012)

silver is a sound investment. if i were going to buy silver, i think i could find a better source than Ebay though. but thats just me.


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## Dawnsdad (Apr 10, 2012)

I have read this whole thread and maybe I just missed it, but could you please describe the makeup of your cathodes? It seems that no silver is growing on the shaft going down to the bottom. Is it some kind of insulated material?


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## Geo (Apr 10, 2012)

Dawnsdad said:


> I have read this whole thread and maybe I just missed it, but could you please describe the makeup of your cathodes? It seems that no silver is growing on the shaft going down to the bottom. Is it some kind of insulated material?



its a hardened graphite cathode. the lead to the cathode is coated. they are sold widely on the internet but i would recommend you buy from Lazersteves website at www.goldrecovery.us

log in with username : gold
and password : goldm1ner*


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