# CLEAN UP !



## goldinsulator (Mar 20, 2013)

As I have been on this forum everyday reading and cross referencing posts, refining my recovery and then refining processes.
But before I start fresh .
I want to now clean up the "epic failure" and "other" I thought I knew hows.

I have combined the "liquids" acids and now have this "picture" filtered and what looks like copper floating on bottom. There is no smb in this liquid.

It test positive gold. 

I read about cementing copper on to a solid piece of copper connected to a piece of iron by wire the wire being outsideof the solution, or does someone have a better way of gettin out the values.
I took 8 pictures this was the best with lighting as it was today. on the bottom is a even darker reddish layer


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Mar 20, 2013)

The simplest way to recover from a mess is to cement out all the values using copper. 

What that means is that we put a piece of metallic copper into the dirty solution. If there is a lot of acid left the copper will start to dissolve, but as the free acid is consumed, a "replacement reaction" will begin. Copper will dissolve into the solution, _replacing_ the less reactive metals that are already in solution, including gold, silver and any platinum group metals that may be there. This replacement reaction is known as _cementing_ or _cementation_. By using copper, we only replace metals less reactive, which includes all of the precious metals. If you use a more reactive metal, like steel or aluminum, you would replace everything less reactive than those metals, which could include metals you don't want, including copper.

Once your PMs are cemented, decant the solution off and put the cemented material away until you know how to handle it further.

Dave


----------



## goldinsulator (Mar 20, 2013)

so add more copper i have some tubing the copper will disolve leaving the pms in the solution?


----------



## srlaulis (Mar 20, 2013)

goldinsulator said:


> so add more copper i have some tubing the copper will disolve leaving the pms in the solution?



The pms will be in the solution, at the bottom of the vessel once settled and possibly coated around the copper pipe, in the form of powder, slime, mud, etc. Collect that material.


----------



## kkmonte (Mar 20, 2013)

If you are going to use copper pipe, bang it out flat first.. You want real clean copper pipe with no solder on it, etc. Your PM's will stick so the copper and if you use a pipe, that will include the inside of the pipe. Once cementation is completed, use a brush to brush off the PM's from the copper pipe into the solution.


----------



## goldinsulator (Mar 20, 2013)

ok i got it now thanks everyone ! will post results . so i should expect to see all the metals in the bottom and on the copper. I will find different type of copper . will the solution clear up.?


----------



## rusty (Mar 20, 2013)

goldinsulator said:


> ok i got it now thanks everyone ! will post results . so i should expect to see all the metals in the bottom and on the copper. I will find different type of copper . will the solution clear up.?



It's rather obvious that you have not read Hokes book " Refining Precious Metals Wastes " nor the forum hand books.


----------



## goldinsulator (Mar 20, 2013)

Well i have been reading the forum information, I have stop doing anything right now and just cleaning up the mess I started with based upon uninformed idea's, and word of mouth. Actually had I not have found this great site I would have dumped everything and forgot about a very cool hobby. I have down loaded hoke book , i have not looked throuh it yet. but have been searching on the forum. 

So yes and no rusty but thanks for your input.


----------



## rusty (Mar 20, 2013)

goldinsulator said:


> Well i have been reading the forum information, I have stop doing anything right now and just cleaning up the mess I started with based upon uninformed idea's, and word of mouth. Actually had I not have found this great site I would have dumped everything and forgot about a very cool hobby. I have down loaded hoke book , i have not looked throuh it yet. but have been searching on the forum.
> 
> So yes and no rusty but thanks for your input.



I spent weeks doing the OCR then proofing the scanned material, least your could do is read it as it is considered the forum bible.


----------



## goldinsulator (Mar 20, 2013)

yes as i said i just want clean this up before i do anything else my friend . and that would include reading hoke's book so that i can understand what it is i am doing since i never did any type of chemistry before. so thank you again .


----------



## rusty (Mar 20, 2013)

goldinsulator said:


> yes as i said i just want clean this up before i do anything else my friend . and that would include reading hoke's book so that i can understand what it is i am doing since i never did any type of chemistry before. so thank you again .



That statement would go over large with Harold_V


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 20, 2013)

goldinsulator said:


> yes as i said i just want clean this up before i do anything else my friend . and that would include reading hoke's book so that i can understand what it is i am doing since i never did any type of chemistry before. so thank you again .


Uhhhh----seems to me you have things a bit confused. 
Is it common for you to eat your food before it is cooked? 
Have you already scheduled your recital---and will learn to play the piano the day after you've taken the stage and made a fool of yourself?

That's pretty much what you're telling us. That doesn't fly here, as that dog simply won't hunt. 

If you hope to get anywhere on this forum, put your thoughts on the back burner and start following advice that has been tendered. That would include reading (and understanding) Hoke's book. One does not blindly experiment, then attempt to learn, and for more reasons than one. By now, you should clearly understand why. You're fortunate the you haven't injured yourself, or lost the values. 

We have a method of teaching those who inquire. If you hope to get our assistance, you'll do things our way. You are not at liberty to come to this forum and single handedly change what has been well established and working properly for more than five years. Keep that thought in your head at all times. 

Get on with reading Hoke, and don't ask more questions until you have done so.

If you choose to respond to this post, choose your words wisely. I do not suffer fools gladly. 

Harold


----------



## srlaulis (Mar 20, 2013)

Harold is using his ESP skills again! :shock: :lol:


----------



## necromancer (Mar 20, 2013)

something to keep, cut and paste it a few times a week


----------



## rusty (Mar 20, 2013)

necromancer said:


> something to keep, cut and paste it a few times a week



I've got the page bookmarked.


----------



## goldinsulator (Mar 21, 2013)

Yes I will wait because of a teasure this site is. And what a great thing to know how to do. 

Backwards is a true statement because I came across this site after I had jumped in .

A fool I am not , but frusrated I was. 
And shall be back some better posts.

And again thanks for the help and advice thats was given.

John


----------



## butcher (Mar 21, 2013)

John, 
You certainly are no fool, in fact I believe you are a smart man to listen to the advice, and I have no doubt that after you get more understanding in this field you will do very well indeed.
we all need to start somewhere, and sometimes we just need a little direction to get us headed the right way, sometimes a little kick in the rear does also help to keep us on the right path.
I will enjoy watching you grow and develop your recovery and refining skills.


----------



## Harold_V (Mar 22, 2013)

goldinsulator said:


> Yes I will wait because of a teasure this site is. And what a great thing to know how to do.
> 
> Backwards is a true statement because I came across this site after I had jumped in .
> 
> ...


That's the spirit, John!
It's important for you to understand the basics before you jump in. There are several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that precious metals in solution can be extremely dangerous. The simple addition of a substance (inadvertently) can create a catastrophic explosion, all without warning. For that reason, blind experimentation is to be discouraged. Follow the experiments proposed by Hoke, which will be excellent in teaching you how the elements behave in various conditions, as found in the lab. 

Keep alcohol out of the refinery. Do your work sober-----as a clouded mind can be a disaster---to say nothing of the consequences of combining some of these solutions with alcohol. 

I am solely responsible for this forum having adopted Hoke's book as it's bible. There is good reason why that is so, and the reason will be evident when you explore. She spoke in language that even I could understand, for I, like you, knew nothing about chemistry. In spite of that fact, I managed to learn to refine gold, silver, platinum and palladium, and went on to found a small refining service which saw me to my (early) retirement. I owe it all to Hoke, for, at that time, there was NO OTHER source of information on the market, nor was there a potential for any to be published (at least in the US), because it was illegal to own, process in any way, gold, without a federal license. The penalty for doing so was ten years and a $10,000 fine. That, of course, all changed on January 1, 1975. 

I appreciate your attitude. That, here, is everything. 

While I spend very little of my time on this board these days, there are those who have come behind me who are very adept at leading you in a good and proper direction. Follow their lead, and ask intelligent questions when you're stumped (and you will be)---questions that reflect the fact that you have, indeed, read Hoke's book. Doing so will put you on the same page with the readers---most of whom will already have been through the same things you face. 

Do yourself one other favor. Discard anything you may have "learned" (a term I use loosely) from other sources. The basic guidance that has been dispensed on this forum has come from several individuals who have direct ties to the commercial refining industries. Between two of us, alone, there is a representation of more than 60 years of experience. Others bring to the table their excellent educations and additional years of experience. Here, you will not be lead astray. 

Harold


----------



## goldinsulator (Mar 22, 2013)

Thanks Harold!
I had became obvious that what I heard and thought I understood was bunk, and the help being given I could not undrstand.

I work in nuclear power generation plants , chemical plants, as well as petro refinery's. Installing the high temp insulation as well as fabercating the metal that covers and protects it. 
I do work only sober, all that industrial safety training and seeing first hand what happens when you dont protect yourself. 

Sober and safety minded is a lifestyle choice.

So now I have secured the all the mess that I have made.
I will settle in for good read.

Chat with yall later...
John


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Mar 22, 2013)

John,

There are a couple of digital versions of Hoke's book on the forum. The original copy is here: _Refining Precious Metal Wastes_. You can read it on your computer.

If you prefer a printed copy, I just posted a printer friendly version a couple of days ago. The link in my signature line below will take you to it.

Good luck in your journey,
Dave


----------

