# Precipitated White Not Brown Mud-Looking for Gold



## liquidauction (Apr 13, 2012)

Last night I used AR to refine gold plate and gold filled scrap, 85g. It was suggested to me to "dip" the scrap items in the AR until plating/fill was removed. I ended up with a super dark green solution. Filtered, I added urea (I know better now). Then my wife diluted SMB in a stainless steele pot (I went to get DW at the store). She added the SMB to the solution and a fine white powder precipitated. A LOT of it. Any idea's what this white mud is? Also, solution is still testing positive for gold. What should I do now?


The solution is still very dark emerald green (not cloudy looking at all)


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## Geo (Apr 13, 2012)

where ever you got the suggestion to "dip" gold plated and gold filled in AR to strip it gave you a bad suggestion. you should study the forum on the subject and download C.M. Hokes book "refining precious metal waste" free to download from the forum. the link is in several members signature lines. 

i hope you didnt throw the material away that you "stripped" because your gold is still on it somewhere, probably as a fine powder stuck to the metal even if it dissolved all the way past the gold.but its unlikely that it did on the gold filled.

the white precipitate sounds like copper from your super saturated copper nitrate solution. when you dilute the copper precipitates as a white powder. take a small sample and add a little hcl and see if it dissolves and the solution turns black.

when you process this way, and its a terrible way to do it. all the material has to be dissolved, not just stripped with AR. it just doesnt work like that. after you have started it this way, you may have to complete the process to get your values back.maybe not, but one of the more knowledgeable members will have to help you with that.


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## liquidauction (Apr 13, 2012)

Thank you Thank you! 

I saved all the pieces! I will just have to dissolve all with AR and go from there and do my next batch after reading the book. This is only my second attempt at refining and 1st at gold filled so I better fix the mistakes I've made thus far before venturing into another process :| . 

If it is copper what should I do with the solution now to get to gold mud so I can clean this batch up before starting my new AR with all the pieces?

I have the book downloaded and will get on it!

I guess I don't understand why the SMB precipitated the Copper instead of Gold. Can anyone help me with that one?


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## Geo (Apr 13, 2012)

you can test it with stannous chloride to see if it has gold in it. stannous chloride is clean tin dissolved in hcl. dip a cotton swab in the solution and then add a drop of test solution on it, if it turns purple to black its a positive for gold.i would bet my next gold bar that if it had that much copper in solution, theres no gold in the solution. oh, there may be a trace but as copper goes into solution it pushes the gold back out.the base metal of the gold plate and gold filled would have plated the gold back out almost as fast as it was dissolved.check to see if there is any black powder at the bottom of the solution, if there is it could be cemented gold or silver.


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## liquidauction (Apr 13, 2012)

I did test and the result is brown/black.

I'm really "freaking" out right now. This isn't my gold scrap and I'm in a mess!

If the base metals push the gold back out then using the AR to dissolve the bits and pieces that I dipped will do the same since it's going to be a much higher concentration right? uGH!

What can I do to clean up my mess...any guidance is greatly appreciated. This is my stupid tax for this decade!

Should I start by using just Nitric solution to get the metals out that can be separated with nitric first (precipitate silver copper etc). Then take the batch and soak in AR? Might that helps eliminate some of the impurities?

Thanks!


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## Geo (Apr 13, 2012)

ok, first, what did you test, the white powder or the solution?


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## liquidauction (Apr 13, 2012)

White Powder tested in HCL= dissolved 
Dark Green A/R solution tested with stannous chloride= black/brown on q-tip

White powder still sitting in the bottom of solution. Just pulled a sample to add HCL to for the test to see if Copper.

Thank you!


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## Geo (Apr 13, 2012)

filter the AR solution through a couple of coffee filters. dont use metal for any part of this. use a plastic colander with coffee filters.filter into a clean glass container and dilute with water, at least a quarter of the volume as you have already added some water. take a large pinch of dry SMB and drop it in the solution. did it fizz and bubble? if it did you have some free nitric in solution. if not, add a couple of spoon fulls of dry SMB to the solution and stir well. stir again in a few minutes. dont be surprised if theres no dramatic color change. give it about 30 minutes and test the solution again with stannous. if its positive, add a little more SMB. if not, heat the solution until it steams and keep it there for 20-30 minutes and then let it cool. any gold will be settled by then as a brown powder.


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## butcher (Apr 13, 2012)

liquidauction,

Here is my suggestion and comments.
Well you just gave yourself away, you have not been studying, or reading, as we suggest almost daily on the forum, you have took two very dangerous acids and mixed them with metals, made some very dangerous and toxic fumes, you also have some dangerous powders mixed in a toxic liquid, do you understand how to deal with this waste? You have created a mess, this mess is not recovering or refining, it will take some time to get this cleaned up, and what little gold you had is most likely going to be harder to get back, you do need to reconsider trying things you do not understand, this is too dangerous to do that with the chemicals and wastes we deal with, gold is too valuable to throw away, trying things you do not understand.

First read the safety section, also study the chemicals you’re using, the dangers of the reactions with metals, the gases that form.

Read the sections on dealing with waste, this is also in the safety section.

Spend time studying the processes before you try them, understand how to process materials and protect your health and those around you when you do this.

Read Hokes book and doing the experiments it recommends.

Study the forum, and other recommended materials.


The gold probably just dissolved in the acids and plated back to the un-dissolved metals, rinse these metal pieces off and add the rinse water to the solution you have made, put these into a jar with a lid and label jar of contents.

Aqua regia is not a process to use to recover gold from base metals.

The white powders may contain very small traces of gold, but is most likely copper silver and other base metals, separate these from the liquid, rinse them well and put in a jar label jar, the liquid add a large piece of copper metal to cement any powders from solution that may form, if you do get powders, rinse copper bar into the solution let powders settle and decant solution, rinse the powders and add to jar of powders in your jar, the solution add a large piece of iron, (read dealing with waste), stir solution with the piece of iron for a few times over a few hours, when no more powders form from solution, let settle separate these powders, dry them, then add lime to the solution till pH 9 let settle separate the sludge from liquid, dry the sludge, a little Epsom salt and adjusting the pH of solution to close to neutral should give you a clear salt water solution you can dispose of, but be careful of what you do with this solution as it will kill vegetation and can ruin soils, a sewer system (not a septic tank can handle this clear salt water solution.

Do not make this mistake again, spend time learning, the gold will be there when your ready to deal with it, I also feel if you do not study, your just might as well go out and buy gold and silver jewelry, pay good money for them, and throw them in the trash, it would be much safer than what your doing now, and that is where the gold and silver is going when you try to recover or refine without studying first.

Do not feel too bad your not the first to make this mistake and you will not be the last, but if your smart, you will not make this mistake again, and you will do the recommended studying so your recovering gold and not making costly toxic waste to deal with (without and metal to proudly show your wife) also I would reconsider having my wife around these toxic chemicals until she is also educated on the dangers and understand taking proper precautions to protect her health.


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## butcher (Apr 13, 2012)

After spending more time studying, I would combine the powders from the jars (you cemented using the copper buss bar) with remaining metal pieces, dry and incinerate, red hot, then follow Hoke's book and her suggestion on processing gold-filled jewelry.
(I would not combine the powder you separated from solution using iron), dry and dispose of it).


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## liquidauction (Apr 13, 2012)

Butch, I appreciate you taking the time to express your concerns. 

I think it is important for you to understand that I have been searching for information on this topic for a long time. I am familiar with safety and have a well established clean room equipped for safety. I'm familiar with all the chemicals I'm using. The research I have done is about the elements used, safety considerations, and processes used to refine gold/silver.However once you do all the background research it becomes time to "do it". Invariably mistakes will be made and understanding the metal displacement has been easier to learn in a "book" than doing the actual process (as expected). 

There isn't much information out there in the library that I have found on processing gold fill/gold plated. I have been very excited to come across this forum. My account was opened by my wife who came across the site about a month ago, but I didn't know it existed. I thank you for all your input and am very excited to read Hoke's ebook.

For now I just need to clean up my experimental mess. One has to start somewhere and I assure you my experimenting safety has been studied, although my experiment may not be lucrative and quite costly.

Again, although it was quite a spanking, I do appreciate you taking the time to help


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## Harold_V (Apr 14, 2012)

liquidauction said:


> I saved all the pieces! I will just have to dissolve all with AR and go from there and do my next batch after reading the book.


As long as you hold on to the notion that you will strip with AR, you're not going to make any headway. I strongly advise you put everything on hold and read Hoke's book, so you'll gain a basic understanding of what's wrong with your current plan. Rarely will you find AR to be appropriate when attempting to recover gold. 

Harold


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## dtectr (Apr 14, 2012)

My friend, I will be absolutely straightforward with you. Attempting to learn anything on this topic elsewhere on the internet, or library for that matter, is like searching for a wife by reading bathroom walls. There is no control of who writes what, and they never have your best interest at heart. 
This forum is unashamedly the best there is and like nowhere else. 
Follow the above guidance and we'll be seeing your buttons soon enough.


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## butcher (Apr 14, 2012)

liquidauction,

I have been studying for years, and I still go back and re-study the basics, the same things I said you should study, the more we do this, the better the understanding we get.

So after you read Hoke's book, start again and re-read it. That is what I do.
Also you should do the same with safety, and dealing with waste.

It is a big mistake to think you already know everything, even as a professional you can always go back and restudy the basics and learn something you thought you already knew.


Reading Hoke's book, she will give you getting acquainted experiments to do, if you take her advice and practice these, it will give you an understanding of how metals do or do not react in these acids, paying close attention to these experiments, you will learn how to deal with many reactions, also you will understand why she performs the steps she does with the material she is recovering values from, and why.

My advice was not to whip you, it was just me telling you I think you’re going in the wrong direction, and trying to show you the road that I believe would work better to get where you wish to go.


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## liquidauction (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks again Butcher! I hope my reply was not vague. I absolutely have more than I can imagine to learn. My only point was that at some point you have to dig in and start to try it to better understand what you are reading.

Anyway, thank you for all of your advice. I'm currently working on my batch with the advise you gave as well as I have read all of the book. Now I'm rereading it as a reference as I'm looking at the steps you advised as well as others. 

I'm going to be posting a follow up question in a separate post to draw more attention to a specific question. I hope to see you there and again greatly appreciate your advise and years of expertise that you are will to share with all of us.


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## pgm (Apr 15, 2012)

Hi can you post some pictures....i would like to take a look at your liquid


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## liquidauction (Apr 15, 2012)

dtectr said:


> My friend, I will be absolutely straightforward with you. Attempting to learn anything on this topic elsewhere on the internet, or library for that matter, is like searching for a wife by reading bathroom walls. There is no control of who writes what, and they never have your best interest at heart.
> This forum is unashamedly the best there is and like nowhere else.
> Follow the above guidance and we'll be seeing your buttons soon enough.




Thank you so much! My sentiment is the same. After all the research I've done to find this site is a God send. Absolutely a wonderful resource and I'm fortunate to have found it. I just hope I'll be able to save this batch!


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## liquidauction (Apr 15, 2012)

pgm said:


> Hi can you post some pictures....i would like to take a look at your liquid




I'll try!


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## pgm (Apr 15, 2012)

liquidauction said:


> dtectr said:
> 
> 
> > My friend, I will be absolutely straightforward with you. Attempting to learn anything on this topic elsewhere on the internet, or library for that matter, is like searching for a wife by reading bathroom walls. There is no control of who writes what, and they never have your best interest at heart.
> ...



Do not waste anything. stop what you are doing and take some pictures....then take pictures of each step and it will be OK..this lot can be saved all you have to do is follow simple steps and not change the process...

You will want to read Hooks...i read it and now that i have done the process a few times i like to read it again....it makes alot more sense...now for me


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## Geo (Apr 15, 2012)

from my experience with cell boards, the gold plating is very thin. its used for shielding against radio interference. any process, whether you remove base metal with nitric or AP will cause the gold to break up into small particles. a heat gun will get the boards hot enough to make the components come loose, if you have time to deal with them one at a time. cell boards are problematic because there are so many different components and they are all small and hard to deal with (for me anyway). im sure that a lot of members will disagree, and i understand, but i have dealt with enough dirty solutions that i think i know what to do with them, but i run the whole board through AR. at least 2 pounds at a time. the first solution gets saturated with base metal and more hcl and nitrate will not react even with heat. i turn off the heat and allow to cool and carefully decant to another container and add a little salt to precipitate silver chloride and test for gold.normally its barren of gold so in the stock pot it goes. then another AR, this time the base metal is all but gone and the solution is very positive for gold.i proceed the reaction until no more action and then turn off heat and let it cool. test,filter and precipitate the gold with a final wash of the material with hcl/Cl just to be sure.like i said, im sure there are some members that will find fault with this and thats ok, it works for me and im sure to get the gold and silver.all the components thats left are clean (like chips) and i process them separately. there are a couple of steps im sure i didnt mention (like washes and rinses) and im not recommending anyone do this, im just saying that theres more than one way to do things.


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## liquidauction (Apr 15, 2012)

Geo said:


> from my experience with cell boards, the gold plating is very thin. its used for shielding against radio interference. any process, whether you remove base metal with nitric or AP will cause the gold to break up into small particles. a heat gun will get the boards hot enough to make the components come loose, if you have time to deal with them one at a time. cell boards are problematic because there are so many different components and they are all small and hard to deal with (for me anyway). im sure that a lot of members will disagree, and i understand, but i have dealt with enough dirty solutions that i think i know what to do with them, but i run the whole board through AR. at least 2 pounds at a time. the first solution gets saturated with base metal and more hcl and nitrate will not react even with heat. i turn off the heat and allow to cool and carefully decant to another container and add a little salt to precipitate silver chloride and test for gold.normally its barren of gold so in the stock pot it goes. then another AR, this time the base metal is all but gone and the solution is very positive for gold.i proceed the reaction until no more action and then turn off heat and let it cool. test,filter and precipitate the gold with a final wash of the material with hcl/Cl just to be sure.like i said, im sure there are some members that will find fault with this and thats ok, it works for me and im sure to get the gold and silver.all the components thats left are clean (like chips) and i process them separately. there are a couple of steps im sure i didnt mention (like washes and rinses) and im not recommending anyone do this, im just saying that theres more than one way to do things.




Thanks Geo but not cell boards...rolled gold/plated pocket watch/jewelry.


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## Geo (Apr 15, 2012)

yea, i posted on the wrong topic. sorry about that.  

but in my defense, i have a terrible head cold ive been fighting for a few days.  this cold medicine has got my head swimming alot for the past couple of days.


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## liquidauction (Apr 17, 2012)

Geo said:


> yea, i posted on the wrong topic. sorry about that.
> 
> but in my defense, i have a terrible head cold ive been fighting for a few days.  this cold medicine has got my head swimming alot for the past couple of days.




No sweat! HOpe you feel better. BTW we are getting things under control thanks to your posts. I'll post pics as soon as I get things more consolidated!

Thanks again!


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