# Banning of Jeneje



## g_axelsson (Feb 19, 2017)

Ken, known as Jeneje on GRF and owner of the Refinement of Precious Metals forum has been banned after a thorough discussion among the moderators. His banning is based on his actions on GRF and RPM.

Recently he condoned a thread here on GRF which was intending to solicit members to pay for data. When some members pointed out the potential flaws in the data in a professional and factual way, he took the thread over to his forum and announced it would continue. And when Chris again pointed out the flaws on RPM, Ken's reaction was to ban Chris from his forum.

Since many of our members are also members of RPM, we are aware of some of the disparaging comments that Ken has made about this forum and some of its members. These comments are not in keeping with the spirit of this forum, Hobbyists and Professionals Helping One Another. Ken is no longer a member of this forum.

We do not want to create a conflict between these forums. We have many members in common and we do not want anyone to feel they have to choose between forums. Members are free to continue to belong to any or both forums as they choose.

Göran


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## silversaddle1 (Feb 19, 2017)

What is RPM?


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## g_axelsson (Feb 19, 2017)

silversaddle1 said:


> What is RPM?


Short for "Refinement of Precious Metals forum", it was too long to write it several times. I'm lazy. :wink: 

Göran


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 19, 2017)

Ken's forum is called Refinement of Precious Metals, also known as RPM or RoPM.

Dave


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## Geo (Feb 19, 2017)

I have tried to stay out of this for the most part, but I feel I should respond to this. This has nothing to do with my friendship with Ken or me being a moderator on the RoPM but every thing to do with being a member of this forum. 

I urge you to reconsider this position. Ken was punished for what he has done on this forum with a suspension of his account. Since that time he hasn't made a post here that would warrant him being banned. To punish him twice for the same offense has a name in the legal community, it's called double jeopardy. 

If Ken had broken the rules since his last punishment, I would have kept silent, but he has not. Punishing someone for something that occurs off of this forum should not happen as it does not effect the forum. Ken has never said anything disparaging about the GRF, only certain members. Banning someone for what they say on other forms of media is a type of censure that should not happen here. Should we worry about what we say on facebook as well or youtube? If so, we should be told of it now so we will not be banned for it later.

As a member and and as an observer, this does not look like justice to me, it looks more like a lynching. A few individuals that are in power targets a relatively innocent individual and decides to take them out for no other reason than he said some mean things and they do not like him. Like I said, he paid for his misdeeds here with a suspension of his account. 

This is the last I will say about this, being disliked is not a crime, and it should not be grounds for being banned.


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## snoman701 (Feb 19, 2017)

Geo...I'm but a new member....but I've been around the forum world for a while.

I understand the terms you've brought up, but I think that the concern here is that the data that he's trying to sell, doesn't jive with the nature of this forum. Everything is freely given here, and even when data is brought up, that data is heavily scrutinized, pointing out possible flaws in the method. This is the point of the peer review, and to ban someone (Chris) for trying to challenge the methods alogy of the data collection, when one is aiming to profit from the data itself, sort of goes against the very nature of this forum.

I have actually been very impressed with the nature of this forum. See the business section for examples. If I go in and say "Boardsort sucks", people are going to question if it was my experience, or if it is everyone's experience. They will want to hear both sides of the story. 

So I guess I see both sides, but ultimately, if someone is trying to sell magic beans, without explaining that they'll only grow in magic soil, and further censoring those who point out that they'll only grow in magic soil, it really just doesn't jive with the generosity and integrity that I see elsewhere on this forum.


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## patnor1011 (Feb 19, 2017)

Geo said:


> I have tried to stay out of this for the most part, but I feel I should respond to this. This has nothing to do with my friendship with Ken or me being a moderator on the RoPM but every thing to do with being a member of this forum.
> 
> I urge you to reconsider this position. Ken was punished for what he has done on this forum with a suspension of his account. Since that time he hasn't made a post here that would warrant him being banned. To punish him twice for the same offense has a name in the legal community, it's called double jeopardy.
> 
> ...



Geo. You think that Ken was punished here for something he did or said on other forum and that it is not correct. It may be so but what if it was him who actually started it first? According to his own words, few of GRF members were banned on his forum application just because they tried to discuss about it over here in a thread started by creator of that application. I am one of banned members too and for what? Just for saying that contributors will not be rewarded fairly. 
So to sum it up he banned people there who voiced their opinion here and lets just say he got back the same. His last few posts on his forum are not very favorable about GRF at all. Talking about status quo, pissing contest omnipresent here, talking about some conspiracy to hide yields from members here... 
Frankly I am tired of this personal vendettas and ego battles. I do not think Ken lost anything he still does have his own forum and from the looks of it perhaps he did not even liked it here anyway.
Lets just move on and focus on refining and recovery instead of this fighting for pointless internet street creed.


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## Geo (Feb 19, 2017)

patnor1011 said:


> Geo said:
> 
> 
> > I have tried to stay out of this for the most part, but I feel I should respond to this. This has nothing to do with my friendship with Ken or me being a moderator on the RoPM but every thing to do with being a member of this forum.
> ...



Pat, you are not banned from the RoPM. You can log in there right now. If you can't, let me know and we can figure out what happened. I am seeing that you are still a member. As a member, you can download the mentioned app for free just like any other RoPM member.


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## Tzoax (Feb 19, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Ken, known as Jeneje on GRF and owner of the Refinement of Precious Metals forum has been banned after a thorough discussion among the moderators. His banning is based on his actions on GRF and RPM.
> Göran



In other words he is banned from this website because of his actions on other website (his own website). :shock: 

Even more precise, if you don't agree with moderator's opinion from GRF don't ever share your opinion somewhere else, specially on your own website, or you will end up banned like Ken. 




g_axelsson said:


> Recently he condoned a thread here on GRF which was intending to solicit members to pay for data. When some members pointed out the potential flaws in the data in a professional and factual way, he took the thread over to his forum and announced it would continue. And when Chris again pointed out the flaws on RPM, Ken's reaction was to ban Chris from his forum.
> Göran



Or, shorter: Don't ever, ever try to continue working on something we do not agree with, never, anywhere. And in case you do so, then allow us to always be near you and keep fighting against your work wherever you are. And most important - don't complain about it...you know what will follow.
sincerely
Moderators



g_axelsson said:


> We do not want to create a conflict between these forums. We have many members in common and we do not want anyone to feel they have to choose between forums. Members are free to continue to belong to any or both forums as they choose.
> Göran



Then, please, stop acting like this - 


g_axelsson said:


> silversaddle1 said:
> 
> 
> > What is RPM?
> ...



Give others example with your behavior being moderator here. Would you answer the same way if somebody asked you what GRF is? Show a little respect to others even if you are not sharing same opinions. Specially if you banned one before being "winking" lazy.

Hydra Siege project will continue on some "other place" on internet. I have guessing game for you - guess where?  

Alexander


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## justinhcase (Feb 19, 2017)

In philosophy and rhetoric, eristic (from Eris, the ancient Greek goddess of chaos, strife, and discord) refers to argument that aims to successfully dispute another's argument, rather than searching for truth. According to T.H. Irwin, "It is characteristic of the eristic to think of some arguments as way of defeating the other side, by showing that an opponent must assent to the negation of what he initially took himself to believe. Eristic is arguing for the sake of conflict, as opposed to resolving conflict.
I can not understand people who use argument as a weapon instead of a tool to define truth.If you can not explain your point so as to change the mind of the counter argument,ether you are not capable of proper communication or you are wrong.The hole point is to keep discussing until you reach an accord.
It is very disappointing how few people are capable of proper discourse and fail to understand it's importance. 
This site is one of the few havens I have found from such distasteful manners. 
For though we love both the truth and our friends, piety requires us to honor the truth first.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 19, 2017)

GRF does not exist in a vacuum, anything we do outside of GRF will be considered when we decide if a person is someone we do want here as a guest or not.

If I would start selling gold drops on eBay with fraudulent texts, should that affect my status here? If I would con another forum member outside of the forum, do you still want me here?

Ken was banned because of many reasons, both his behavior here and on his own forum. The main reason of banning was because he tried to suppress critical voices that threatened his ego. His actions showed us that he puts his ego in front of the good of all the other members on his forum. That is not in the spirit of refiners helping each other.

So to summarize, what you do outside of the forum does matter. If you for example want to go to another forum and write bad things about another member you are free to do it but it can affect your membership here.

Göran


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## 4metals (Feb 19, 2017)

Alexander,

I can see how you are not happy over the outcome of the HYDRA SIEGE thread, but show me where you or anyone supportive of the project refuted the concerns expressed with facts. Where are you discussing the science behind the sampling and processing. How did Ken propose to use his newly purchased AA and assay kiln? Are you going to start running your own samples on batches of components? There are better ways to get more meaningful data but those methods were never mentioned. 

The truth of the matter is that no one has ever come here and disagreed with the prevailing opinions, while being respectful and following the forum rules, and been banned for disagreeing. And since we instituted the voting to ban a standing member rule, there is even more truth to it. We are open to new perspectives and embrace new science. But this thread got off track when talk started about charging members for the data, and when Ken did not like the way the thread was going, he opened discussion for the HYDRA SIEGE project on his forum. And there is no reason in the world why he shouldn't do that. But when presented with the same argument by Chris (GSP) on the RoPM forum he chose to attack Chris rather than engage in an intelligent factual scientifically based discussion. Was this to prevent intelligent fact based discussion or preserve a potential income stream for the forum? 

Until 2 days ago the RoPM forum was accessible, with restrictions, to non members from Ken's signature line on this forum, and the discussion about what happened on the HYDRA SIEGE thread was there for anyone to read. If Ken was about his senses he will have taken that down by now but after a few exchanges Chris, who was a moderator at RoPM was banned, and he also was quite critical of my contributions to this forum. (GRF) 

The only time I ever had any exchange with Ken was by PM when he asked me to come over to the RoPM forum and offered me a position as a moderator, which I declined. So where he gets his facts about me from is questionable.

*The day after he banned Chris, he posted on his forum about how good he felt by taking out the trash. * I do not know how many people on the forum know of Chris's background but Chris is a degreed chemist with 50 years of refining experience on a level from major industry refiners to small niche refineries, to refineries he has owned himself. And first hand working knowledge from the hands on refining to the laboratory support assays required to run a refinery. And he comes to this forum and he went to the RoPM forum to share his knowledge free of charge. But I for one cannot and will not condone Chris being referred to as the trash. 

It is not our intent to get into a contest between these two forums, we have our rules for running this forum and we strive to maintain the order here. We do not intend to discourage anyone from belonging to both of these forums, or if you like one over the other, only one. It is a free choice. But we will not allow discussions that cannot be backed up with good sound science to begin to solicit payment from our members. 

It is unfortunate that you see our perspective as restricting your views. That is how science works, debate backed up with verifiable science. If you care to stick around we are still open to discuss this.


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## Palladium (Feb 19, 2017)

I don't contribute there even though i'm registered and really not involved in this discussion, but i just logged in and found this kind of interesting. 

Members, yesterday (02/18/2017 @ appro 9:00 AM), we had a member carry out a planned targeted cyber attack against our site. This member was caught immediately, and was banned for life. Although the damage was minimal, and the information will be re-posted by IT Today. This kind of terrorism will not be tolerated in any form, by anyone. Any, and all log files we have will be sent to the proper authorities for investigation. Three words of ADVICE, DON'T DO IT!!

I assume more than likely they are talking about a member editing his post or something like that, but them are some mighty strong words to be using if this statement has anything to do with the discussion at hand. More like fear mongering that anything.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 19, 2017)

Tzoax said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > Ken, known as Jeneje on GRF and owner of the Refinement of Precious Metals forum has been banned after a thorough discussion among the moderators. His banning is based on his actions on GRF and RPM.
> ...


Among other things, yes. See my post above.


> Even more precise, if you don't agree with moderator's opinion from GRF don't ever share your opinion somewhere else, specially on your own website, or you will end up banned like Ken.


Not true, not even the moderators agree and we don't ban each other.


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > Recently he condoned a thread here on GRF which was intending to solicit members to pay for data. When some members pointed out the potential flaws in the data in a professional and factual way, he took the thread over to his forum and announced it would continue. And when Chris again pointed out the flaws on RPM, Ken's reaction was to ban Chris from his forum.
> ...


If that was the case I would have banned you. I might not believe that your project is so useful but that is my opinion. If you want to continue working on it that is your choice and opinion. I would never ban you for that.
In the end I might be proven wrong and then I have to concede that and I will have learned something new.


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > We do not want to create a conflict between these forums. We have many members in common and we do not want anyone to feel they have to choose between forums. Members are free to continue to belong to any or both forums as they choose.
> ...


If someone would ask me what GRF stands for, yes, I would add a smiley too. I thought it was quite obvious what RPM was short for, since I wrote it on line one. I don't see why you find it disrespectful or unsuitable for a moderator of GRF.

Göran


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## butcher (Feb 19, 2017)

My loyalty is to this forum and its members, My goal is to learn from the forum, share what I learn, and enjoy the companionship of others which also enjoy this same interest. I was asked to help Moderate this forum, to make decisions, even when I would rather not. My decisions come from what I believe to be in the best interest of this forum and fair for all of its members.

My decisions may not always be the right one (I am only human), but they will be what I believe to be the best for this forum and its members.

I know very little about the other forum, or what goes on there, But I have seen what has happened here, and the disturbances going on in this forum. 

It disturbs me when we have to ban members, which have become friends, or members which have the potential of making a contribution, longstanding members, and the list goes on, but my duty is for the good of the forum, not my personal feelings.

MY vote is not about any other forum. or about any of us as individuals, but for this community as a whole.

Two gold refining forums, many of which share (Mainly) the same membership, discussing the same topics ...(I never did understand, somehow I felt it may have been EGO driven, or driven from disagreements of others (including members or moderators here like Harold, or hatred of them). Even with two different forums, these same problems seem to me to continue to haunt this forum as well as the other forum. (Human nature not at its best, Why can't we just all agree to help and learn from each other without all of this nonsense I will never understand).

I always felt that at some point there would still be conflict from having two forums (which share the same members). It seems to me the other forum started from conflicts. That did not settle any conflicts it just made a hornet's nest on the trail.

I will miss friends, and members, and miss their contributions, But in this case I must do what I feel is best for the Gold refining forum and its members here. and in this case my vote was to ban Jeneje (not because of any other forum, or any other members or moderator's opinions), But out of what I hope is the best interest of this forum and all of the members here as a community.


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## kurtak (Feb 20, 2017)

Geo said:


> I have tried to stay out of this for the most part, but I feel I should respond to this. This has nothing to do with my friendship with Ken or me being a moderator on the RoPM but every thing to do with being a member of this forum.
> 
> Geo - I hate to say this but that is pure BS - your post here has nothing to do with trying to stay out of it - but feeling a need to respond --- this post of yours is the result of a planed approach after discussing it in a group skype discussion using the RPM skype conference call set up --- how do I know this - because I may be ban from logging on to RPM from my computer - BUT - I have friends & they have computers to - so "through" a friends membership I am still able to see what's going on - when I saw you, Ken, Troax, spaceace & Frank & a couple others all logged on - I decided to send Frank a text asking if it was a good time to call him --- he replied saying - I'm on skype call l'll let you know when I'm finished
> 
> ...



Now then - as far as my "cyber crime" (computer data tampering) at best - that is a misdemeanor & a minor one at that - the cyber crime people have limited resources & MUCH bigger fish to fry

But then again - if someone in authority comes knocking on my door - I am "certainly" prepared to give them an ear full - enough of an ear full to get them looking deeper into this & see what is "really" going on

Now - let me tone this down a bit - NONE of us on this end ever wanted to see this get to this point - in FACT many of us have tried to help Ken & his forum out - both by posting info to his forum & some of us (including me) with cash donations - in FACT I would have provided "even more" cash donation if Ken would ever get his "promised" store open - I have been waiting for a year now to buy from his store - BUT - its still not open - just promises that it will be opening SOON - but soon never comes

Bottom line - stop trying to manipulate people to achieve your goals - & then shift the blame when it doesn't go well for you 

Kurt


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## silversaddle1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Why can't this post just "go away?".


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## g_axelsson (Feb 20, 2017)

silversaddle1 said:


> Why can't this post just "go away?".


Because we don't hide the truth here or try to change it.

We could have written nothing at all, but then we would probably have the same discussion but started with a heated post.

The same thing would probably have happened if we had locked the thread from the beginning. The discussion would have popped up somewhere else.

I think it's best to deal with the situation straight on, even if it is a hard topic.

Göran


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## g_axelsson (Feb 20, 2017)

I urge people to keep calm. We have no problem with any one else at this time and I hope it stays that way.

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 20, 2017)

Mainly, he was banned due to his total lack of character. He's a jerk, a liar, a user of people, devious, and vindictive. He bad mouths the GRF. None of the characteristics we want in our members. The mods voted 5 to 1 to ban him and a re-vote would probably come in at 6 to 0. We don't like him. I can't think of any way that he has ever contributed anything to this forum. I think the main reason for this is that he is incompetent when it comes to anything about refining.

We mods are a judicial group when it comes to banning. We decided awhile back that if the guy has more than 50 posts, his banishment would require a majority vote of the mods. We're not going to change the vote. He's gone, permanently. You must understand that we don't want him around - he's just too much of a slimeball. There are no absolute rules for banning someone. Everything depends of the situation. Each deal is different. There was a lot of complexity in this one. He certainly doesn't deserve to be a member of the GRF.

Although I told him I didn't want to be a mod, he made me one anyway. He wanted to fill up the key positions with names to attract members. A couple of years ago, he came up with this idiocy about not being able to quote the GRF. The GRF contains about 96% of all the valid data concerning refining on the internet. Not being able to quote it deprives his members of knowledge. The way he said it made me believe that Noxx had threatened him with a lawsuit if it happened. I believed that until recently when Noxx said it didn't happen. So, it was a lie. A way to separate the members from the GRF, even though the RPM is a plagiarized carbon copy of GRF, right down to its list of categories and their descriptions.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 20, 2017)

kurtak said:


> Geo - I hate to say this but that is pure BS - your post here has nothing to do with trying to stay out of it - but feeling a need to respond --- this post of yours is the result of a planed approach after discussing it in a group skype discussion using the RPM skype conference call set up --- how do I know this - because I may be ban from logging on to RPM from my computer - BUT - I have friends & they have computers to - so "through" a friends membership I am still able to see what's going on - when I saw you, Ken, Troax, spaceace & Frank & a couple others all logged on - I decided to send Frank a text asking if it was a good time to call him --- he replied saying - I'm on skype call l'll let you know when I'm finished
> 
> Kurt



Kurt I was on Skype and facebook yesterday just like most days for business reasons. I was not on a skype call with Ken and that group. I don't even have them in my contact's list on skype. I have stood behind you and Jon and supported both of you even if I haven't said much about what has happened. I do not agree with what Ken and the group on RPM had done to Chris, Jon and others. Or the way things have been handled there. 

IMHO the list they are trying to build is a bunch of crap that in no way could be trusted because of the diversity in product that is available. Testing is the only way to know for sure what you are dealing with unless you deal with the same exact material all of the time and that is almost an impossibility.


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## kurtak (Feb 20, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> I urge people to keep calm. We have no problem with any one else at this time and I hope it stays that way.
> 
> Göran



I agree absolutely - I hope my post did not come across that way - it was NOT my intent - if anything my post was meant to point out - "be careful NOT to make this a side choosing issue"

Which is why I tried (hoped) to temper my post by including the FACT that many of use here from GRF have in fact put a GREAT deal of our time & effort (some even money) into trying to help Ken & his forum out

For crying out load - I personally - a fair number of times posted "here" on GRF encouraging members from here to go check out Kens forum - when he (Ken) posted on RPM that his forum was not doing enough in activity so he was thinking of shutting it down - sent him the money for another months service & told him to keep it going for another month & see how it goes - I posted "many" long & detailed post - often receiving much thanks for the contribution with my greatest contribution being the thread on smelting - information he would not have on his forum if not for that contribution 

Geo, Tzoax or some other member of both forums --- please give Ken this massage for me ----------

I knew BEFORE I exited the way I did - that you would be able to retrieve what I edited out of my posting - with nothing other then a "little" time on your part - my exit was NOT meant to do GREAT harm (because I new it wouldn't) --- rather - it was meant as a bit of a sting - or a message of sorts - to say --- Ken - your actions &/or attitude of late is unacceptable - TOTALLY Unacceptable

AND - I am actually sorry it came to this - VERY sorry really --- because it DID NOT need to come to this

I "actually" hate to see something I myself put so much into come to such an end :!: :!: :!: 

Edited; - for missing words & spelling

Edit to add; - its kind of like helping to build a house only to see it destroyed by fire

Kurt


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## kurtak (Feb 20, 2017)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Kurt I was on Skype and facebook yesterday just like most days for business reasons. I was not on a skype call with Ken and that group.



 OK - my bad - an assumption on my part as a result of being at my friends looking at what was going on - on RPM at the time I sent you my text - you were part of the list of members logged on

Goes to show what an assumption will get you - kind of like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick :shock: (that's ouch)

Even if you were in a Skype conference there - I would also assume it was by invite (as would be the case with all - were that the case) --- not the same as all agreeing in such a conference

Edit to add; - please except my humble appology

Kurt


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## Barren Realms 007 (Feb 20, 2017)

kurtak said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Kurt I was on Skype and facebook yesterday just like most days for business reasons. I was not on a skype call with Ken and that group.
> ...



Accepted my friend.


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## Geo (Feb 20, 2017)

I said what I thought and that is all I am saying about the situation.

Kurt, I consider Ken a friend and we talk on skype, we talk on the phone, I've been to Ken's house a few times. I also consider every member here to be my friend. I do not collude or conspire to cause trouble. No one puts words into my mouth. I can get into trouble all on my own. I consider you as a friend, even now. Simply because I have tried to keep my business with each forum separate. If that is too hard to believe, there nothing I can do about it. 

I will not voluntarily quit the GRF. If I am causing a distraction or if I'm part of the problem, perhaps you should vote to remove me. I owe the GRF for almost everything I know about refining. I am loyal to the GRF and that will not change. I am sorry that I appear to be guilty by association. I had nothing to do with you and Chris being banned from the RoPM and it hurt me when I logged in and saw what had happened. The only thing I'm guilty of is trying to be a good friend and being there when they want to talk. I am a good listener.

This conflict has cost me personally. I now have people whom I still consider my friends who holds animosity towards me for a situation that doesn't even concern me. I tried to put my best foot forward and offer whatever apology I could to Chris and he ignores me completely. I consider him to be a mentor and teacher. So this in itself is a big blow to me. I was learning about smelting from you and I very much appreciate your time for the explanations and guidance.

Why does it have to be one or the other, your either with us or against us. Why can't I be a friend to Ken and still be a member here? I don't argue. I don't practice backstabbing or sniping. I say what's on my mind and for me it's over and done. I am not the one to hold a grudge. I don't go to Ken with "people said this or that" just like I will not come here and post remarks from him.

I am saddened and heartbroken over how this all turned out. I wish I could distance myself from all of it but it's too late for that. The only thing I can do now is try and repair broken connections.


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## aga (Feb 20, 2017)

For supposed Adults, this whole thing has blown all out of proportion.

Nothing has actually happened ! Nobody died !

Some Friends had an argument over a small point and are now not talking to each other.

If they were friends before, both sides will cool down and things can return to normal *in time*.

If that simply Cannot happen because of some angry words said, they were never Real Friends in the first place.

"least Said, soonest Mended" springs to mind - leave it a while, then get back in touch, in the spirit of reconcilliation.


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## butcher (Feb 20, 2017)

I say we get back to helping each other find that elusive gold.

Enough trouble in the mining camps let's quit bickering and get back to mining, and helping each other.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Feb 20, 2017)

butcher said:


> I say we get back to helping each other find that elusive gold.
> 
> Enough trouble in the mining camps let's quit bickering and get back to mining, and helping each other.



I can get behind that statement. :!:


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## glorycloud (Feb 20, 2017)

butcher said:


> Enough trouble in the mining camps let's quit bickering and get back to mining, and helping each other.



Amen to that! 8)


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## silversaddle1 (Feb 20, 2017)

Again, why can't this whole post just "go away?".


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## aga (Feb 20, 2017)

butcher said:


> I say we get back to helping each other find that elusive gold.


You sure there's Gold in this e-scrap stuff ?

I keep digging at it and haven't found any yet !


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 20, 2017)

silversaddle1 said:


> Again, why can't this whole post just "go away?".


The moderators talked about making the first post, then locking the thread. In my opinion, that just creates problems of its own. As is evident in this thread, members have opinions and feelings. It is our hope that by allowing members to comment, they can get it out of their system here on this thread. If we lock or delete the thread, those opinions and feelings will just pop up somewhere else. At least that's my personal opinion.

The thread will fade into obscurity all on its own.

Dave


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## 4metals (Feb 20, 2017)

What the moderators of this forum are trying to preserve is a formula that works. We have new members come here all the time and if they are willing to do the studying and ask the questions when they need some help they are successful. We have amongst our members a good number of successful refiners who process scrap for a living. And they learned their skills from reading, studying and asking questions. 

We invite all who can adhere to our relatively simple guidelines to join our refining family. The information we give is free and we have made a decision to keep it that way. Anyone can post anything they want about refining and recovery whether it is by classic methods or something new and potentially cutting edge. But don't think for a minute it will not be challenged if it doesn't seem right to our members. This is how real science works, make a proposal, throw it out there and prepare to defend your theory. We felt this way before this issue popped up with Jeneje and we still feel this way. This thread was not meant to make anyone feel uncomfortable being here but to let you know what happened to one member. It is unfortunate that it had to go down this way and I have no regrets that the moderators did what is right for our forum. 

So now maybe we can move on, together.


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## aga (Feb 20, 2017)

This should not be forgotten, just left for a while then let old friends kiss and make up behind the scenes.

It's all a storm in a teacup over some simple and trivial misunderstandings.

People can be banned, un-banned, create a new account etc so nothing is set in stone.

The choice to allow discussion about the situation shows great Maturity and Sense.

Today i also signed up and posted about this on RPM, and do not feel threatened either here or there, despite never having successfully recovered nor refined even a microgram of gold, despite a lot of trying.

That day will come, as will a reconcilliation, so the race is on !

I'll offer Gambling Odds (paypal only, bets pre-paid, subject to terms and conditions) :-
25:1 aga recovers some gold first 
10:1 GRF and RPM make friends again first.

Edit: vitally important gambling typo


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## Long Shot (Feb 23, 2017)

Hear, hear 4Metals.


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## geedigity (Feb 25, 2017)

I respect the members and moderators of this forum and appreciate all of the peer reviewed knowledge that is provided freely on this forum. I also feel that bringing this issue to light is good for all members. Since precious metals and ultimately, money tends to attract people that can be described as unscrupulous, dishonest, deceitful, crooked, and/or etc, it is of great importance to know when the character of someone is shown to be questionable. I am confident and trust in GFR's ability to help other members make well informed decisions. If Jeneje was not on the up and up and was knowingly misstating the facts or lying, it is important for members to know this, since it helps us, the "buyers, beware." 

I do want to point out that I followed Tzoax' yield thread with great interest and was appreciative of the time and energy that went into obtaining the yields. When it came to light that the balance used was only accurate to +/- 0.1 grams, I remembered some of my erroneous conclusions I made when I first started in the professional world following obtaining my engineering degree. Were they painful, yes but there was a bright side to it all. I realized how fortunate I was to have a mentor that had the knowledge and experience to quickly identify the flaw in my analysis, logic or assumptions. So Tzoax, remember that GSP did you a favor and pointed out what you needed to fix so you could produce more reliable data. Given the quantities of materials measured, the +/- 0.1 gram accuracy is significant and I thank GSP for catching that. In light of that revelation, I would hope that the yield data was redone prior to selling the application that relied on that data. If Jeneje purchased it and is/was offering it for sale knowing this, then this would represent questionable character. Good science is repeatable, guess science is called gambling.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 26, 2017)

I think Jeneje was on the up and up. I just think he didn't have enough technical knowledge to realize the flaws in what he wanted to do.

This thread is locked. I'm bored with it and others have said they were bored with it. Onward to bigger and better things.


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## Lou (Feb 26, 2017)

Ken is on the up and up insofar as my dealings with him have been concerned. I have transacted with him without any issue whatsoever and met him in person a few weeks ago when he came to pick up some surplus equipment off of me. He bought reference standards as high purity metal from me and the now infamous AA. I also gave him instruction on preparing and using/storing the standards, which arguably is the most important part in executing a comparative method such as spectroscopy.


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