# More incineration how to ideas



## siddharta (Oct 10, 2012)

Hello,

ok, here's the deal...

I am able to get around 250 lbs of mixed scrap (CPU - green, black fiber, rams, motherboards, agp, vga, mobile phones, etc) per month. I also found a factory that have small enough incinerator to process my scrap and suitable fume treatment...

Here is the idea... I remove only big parts from boards, separate CPU, RAM, AGP, VGA (cut off fingers, pins, etc..). Everything other goes to incineration. Next I process ashes with ball mill, screen them with fine mesh 0.5 mm and run remaining solids under magnet. Then put all solids that are non ferrous into AR. Then perticipate gold, refine it, and process waste for other metals.

What do you think of this idea? Can it be done this way? I am little concerned that I will make big mess if I dissolve all metals in AR. And is it possible to be metal left in fine ashes?

Any ideas how to design work flow for this ammount of scrap? And selling them is not an option... 

Tnx, Boris


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## butcher (Oct 10, 2012)

Boris,
After cherry picking the most valuable easily to recover parts, sell the boards, you have the most values from the easier processed parts, the other unless you can recover all of the different base metals and can sell them you will not make money from them, the majority of metal from the remaining board will be copper and solder with very little precious metals, putting this into aqua regia and trying to recover traces of gold would not work, you would end up with a big mess costing you money to dispose of.

Spend some more time studying the forum, you will learn what will and will not work, you will also learn how to get the most profit fro your scrap.


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## 4metals (Oct 10, 2012)

What you are proposing is almost identical to what most refiners do with the exception being they melt all of non magnetic oversize with copper, assay it and ship it off to a copper refinery which pays on copper and precious metals. 

The remaining ash is crushed and sifted (which is the part where the oversize mentioned above is generated) and sent out as prepared sweeps, usually it requires at least 2 drums (1000 lbs) to have the sweeps sampled at a refinery. 

I would think on a small scale like you're talking a silver inquartation scheme may be worthwhile.

Melt all of your non ferrous oversize with 3 times its weight in silver (Sterling silver works too) and granulate it to make a high surface area alloy for fast digestion.

Part the granulated alloy in 50% nitric acid and the gold and platinum will not dissolve but remain as solids for further purification. There are some exotic metals that may not dissolve but chances are good they will be high temperature melting metals and will come off in the flux of the melt or be picked out of the molten pool because they don't melt. 

The in-solubles in the acid parting process should be filtered, dried and looked at closely. Any Platinum wires may still be intact and can be pulled out. The balance should go into Aqua Regia to clean up the gold for sale. 

The acid now is full of silver and palladium and some platinum. Cement the values out on copper to recycle the silver. The silver can likely be reused multiple times before the PM levels build up too high and need refining. 

I would recover the palladium by digesting the silver in nitric again and dropping the silver as a chloride, washing it well and reducing to metal for reuse in the process. The Pd will remain in solution and can be recovered either with copper or DMG. 

A small silver cell to recycle your silver would be a good addition.

You will have issues with tin from the solder used in the manufacture and some hydrochloric leaches before inquartation may be in order.

Let the other forum members comment on this method and perhaps we can come up with a good viable procedure here. 

Good luck.


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## butcher (Oct 10, 2012)

Before in quartering powders with silver to avoid the high cost of nitric acid I would leach in copper chloride solutions to remove copper, a lot of the base metals, and most of the tin from solder (copper could be recovered from solution (but without a market for copper powder it would be a waste product).

Large volumes of tin from solder would create problems here in my view with nitric acid, if nitric is used removing tin first would be my concern, HCl to remove tin and other base metals above hydrogen in the reactivity series, and rinsing and neutralizing powders with NaOH to help remove chlorides (and attempt to convert silver chloride to oxide), then washing out salt and an incineration of powders before in-quartering powders with remaining before the nitric acid treatment.

But then again we cannot recover all of the metals the big refiners can, and sell these, and the cost for working on a small scale is higher, I still believe selling the remaining circuit boards to large refiners who can recover all of the metals, and do so safely and without putting our environment or us in danger is a better idea, they can have markets for metals we do not have, I would take the gravy off the top and make some change from the remaining the circuit boards sold to major refiner, and move on to higher grade materials, instead of spending a lot of time, acids, and money trying to get a tiny amount of values from a large amount of base metals and ash, and then trying to deal with the waste (which will include once sale-able or re-useable metals).


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## siddharta (Oct 10, 2012)

Wow that was quick... That's why I just love this forum. People here are actually supporting each other and are willing to help. That says a lot about you guys.  Respect.

I now that I am thinking in a way that big refiners are doing. Let me explain... 

Selling is not an option because our regulation forbids selling waste unless you have a certificate from environment agency. To get certificate you have to meet high standards regarding storage space and prevention of contamination of the environment. I am in process of obtaining certificate for waste processing. And it is pain in the ass. Believe me. And I didn't even mention in house incineration. 

I will be able to buy scrap at commercial prices from national company that processes all kinds of waste, that are between 1 to 8 euro per kilo. And first 50 kilos I am getting for free to be able to experiment with processes. They wanna elaborate in exchange dough. In my area there is no refiners. Not even hobbyists... So if I will be smart and if I will be able to think of smart way to process scrap I can become national refiner over time. Cca 12 tons per month. Of course I will start with planned 100 kilos per month for now and keep reading, experimenting and learning. I am talking 10+ years plan.

Well let me say, that I managed to recover and refine my first few grams of gold and when tested it was 24k. 


Now back to the original topic.

What if I would incinerate, separate, screen, leach in copper sulphate like butcher suggested and then use 4metals idea of inquartation scheme? 

Copper which could be recovered from copper sulphate could be melted into plates and refined via cell... then melted into ingots and sold on the market. Same processes will be used for gold and silver. 

I would like to recover gold, silver, palladium, platinum and copper in first stages. That's the plan...


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## butcher (Oct 10, 2012)

I was speaking of copper II chloride not copper sulfate.

On a large scale copper II chloride leach would generate way too much waste.

The base metals in electronic scrap is the majority of the material (leaching these would generate way to much waste if using any acid process, unless you had a market for the waste product or other metals leached, I think it would be a money loser, if you could not make money from copper and other base metals involved, and with copper being the biggest portion of the circuit board after ferrous and aluminum is removed, I think the industry is already doing it the best way, adding copper to the melt and making copper anode bars and refining copper, basically copper refiners who collect the little bit of precious metal mud from anode slimes to help pay the electrical bill for their copper refining business.

I still do not think it would be a good idea to try this, if you have trouble selling scrap because of EPA laws, just think of the kinds of problems your going to have with incineration, waste products produced from process, and leaching waste products produced, if you cannot sell scrap for pollution reasons, just think of how they will be on you like fly’s on stink if they find out you are producing all of these toxic wastes, well better have all of your ducks in a row when they come check on you, they may just have handcuffs on their belts.

If you can set up a government approved incineration and milling plant and melt copper anode Dore bars (buying and adding scrap copper to your melting process) and then sell the copper anodes to a copper refiner. Or become a copper refiner and collect anode slime to process. But even this idea without experience or a lot of capital to build the huge refinery and equipment needed is an awful big dream.

I think before buying anything or going further with your Idea, you should check with your government EPA office to see what laws you may be breaking or what the requirements you would need to follow.


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## siddharta (Oct 11, 2012)

My bad. I don't know how I manage to write copper sulphate... I ment chloride too...

I am in constant contact with EPA office. 
So far I have to make enviromental impact study, and prepare elaborate for waste chemicals and heavy metals disposal. Furthermore I have to install emisions monitor on exhaust pipe to atmosphere. 
In first stages I will outsource incineration, so for now I don't have to worry about this.

What about if I do this way... Cherry picking boards for larger components (bridges, connectors, etc.) and fingers, remove pins and lids from CPU-s... Process those in AP and AR... Or in cell and AR.

Other stuff... incinerate, separate, and then melt and build 3 little cells (copper, silver, Gold)... I have small melting furnace up to 2 kg. If we are talking about 100 kg of scrap, after processing I believe I would be left with around 40-50 kg of metals. Maybe this would be best practice? There is no need to process exactly 100 kg per month... 

How would you process mobile phone boards? Leach them whole, or grind them? If you can't - won't incinerate them? I have little problemns here.
And what about ferrous metals that are gold plated?


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## etack (Oct 11, 2012)

It may be cheaper to start out with building an approved storage unit and buy scrap and just flip it. Cherry pick what is easy to refine and send the rest down river. this way you get your gold and you can still make money on the E-scrap.

Where are you located just the country if nothing else? lost of members around the world can point to refineries that might help. If you can be the BEST buyer in your area than you will make your money. Refining whole boards is not as easy as the video on youtube.

Eric


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## siddharta (Oct 11, 2012)

Yeah I have to contact EPA office to see what are exact requrements for that...
I am from Slovenia... Small european country, near Austria, Italy, Croatia...


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## butcher (Oct 12, 2012)

I think you will find this whole thing a lot harder than you think, and you will need to get a very good education in how to do all of the different things, or hire people who already know, also equipment and set up cost may be huge, while your thinking about this maybe try learning on some electronic scrap removing parts selling them and recovering and refining them, learn how much to buy for and how much you can make from them, try small experiments with working out your bigger plans, this may work you into a business without spending too much money, and can see what will work and what does not, you may slowly work yourself into a business much different than your dream is now, maybe better than this dream.


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## nickvc (Oct 12, 2012)

Butchers advice as usual is spot on.
You have a business opportunity here don't kill it with too high ambitions to start.
Sort and grade your scrap, remove the higher value parts to refine yourself, and sell the remainder on if you can't afford to carry tonnage of stock that the big refiners require to make it cost effective, also allow for 3 months at least from delivery to settlement.
In over 30 years in this business and knowing many big players in the e scrap business here in the UK personally I know none that actually refine the boards all the way, incinerated, crushed, screened and assayed to ship yes, refined no.


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## siddharta (Oct 12, 2012)

After trying to came with a good idea for few weeks now I have to agree with you guys. 
I will most definitely start with small batches, trying and experimenting... I hope that I am not overambitious thinking that in few years time I can be recycling and refining larger batches than 100 kg.

So here is the plan; 

- cherry picking and in house refining
- RAM and bridge chips incinerated and processed
- tantalum capacitors stored and sold as they are
- LCCs stored and processed
- remaining of the boards stored for later times or if I will be able to get certificate sell them. Maybe I will be able to return them after I scavenge them. I will see about that.
-alu and Cu parts collected and sold as scrap metal

What do you think of this plan?

Regarding my question about mobile phones processing? How do you do it? I don't even know how to start. 
And what are you doing with ferrous gold plated pins or other stuff?


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