# epic fail!!! what do I do now???



## bert_b (Apr 30, 2015)

Ok so a technology confounded friend of mine recently made a mistake when refining with aqua regia and asked me to seek out the answer on how to correct the mistake. At the point of the instructions that urea is added to neutralize the nitric acid is where the confusion happened.

So not having his chemicals marked, and it being his first time, he got mixed up and instead of urea he added a bunch of sodium nitrate.

What should he do now? It's about a quarter gallon half of which is the added sodium nitrate(roughly 2 pounds of granules) diluted in water. The other half of the quarter gallon is pre mixed aqua regia.

Please help this first try at home refining may lead to being his last.


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## Smack (Apr 30, 2015)

Leave it sit for now, contain it but don't seal the container as it may build pressure. Next step, let us know what type of material you were processing. Most likely you will be cementing everything and starting over. You will also need to read up on how to treat and handle your waste solution. And make sure it's not in the house or anywhere that there is exposed metal, the fumes will attack everything metal.


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## bert_b (Apr 30, 2015)

Everything is being done outside

He is refining shot he made from pin ingots

As far as waste disposal I have no idea if he has a plan for that but I'll inquire as I'm on my way there now

Thanks for the answer so far


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## acpeacemaker (Apr 30, 2015)

2 lbs of sodium nitrate? Once cooled, did it turn into a hard mass?


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## jason_recliner (Apr 30, 2015)

bert_b said:


> He is refining shot he made from pin ingots


Pin ingots? That is, bars made from melted gold plated pins, such as those found on eBay?

Your friend should quit while he is only a little way behind.
With less than < 1% gold in them thar ingots, the cost of acid alone would exceed the value that you, er I mean your friend, can recover.


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## bert_b (Apr 30, 2015)

Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.


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## nickvc (Apr 30, 2015)

I'm afraid the answer you got is correct, pin ingots are very low in gold and frequently have troublesome metals in the mix which makes recovery and refining very hard even for seasoned refiners.
The honest answer is to stop the process, cement any values on copper and neutralise the solution and make it safe to dispose of, instructions for that are here on the forum.
As stated before the cost of chemicals could well outweigh the value of the gold so your friend needs to find a better source to work with and definitely needs to become aquatinted with this forum if he wants to succeed.


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## Harold_V (Apr 30, 2015)

bert_b said:


> Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.


Killing the messenger isn't well received here. We also have a problem with those who pretend to be moderators, but have not been assigned in that capacity. It is not for you to tell readers what to post, especially when no rudeness has been involved. 

You have been given the best possible advice, although not the answer you hoped to receive. Here, we do not pander to those who know nothing, but seek advice in keeping with what they hope to hear, rejecting everything else, as you have done. 

The first mistake that was made was melting the pins. If they were purchased already melted, that was the second mistake, as one has no clue about content once melted, for such a mess can easily be melted with other scrap brass that contains no value aside from the brass itself. 

There is a great deal of information missing that would be required for a reliable response. One of the things that must be known before ANYONE can provide even a shred of guidance is what percentage of the starting mass has been dissolved? 

Another valid question is has the solution been tested for gold content? If so, how?

Harold


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## jason_recliner (Apr 30, 2015)

bert_b said:


> Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.


I will assume that was aimed at me. I am not intending to be condescending, though I will admit to scepticism for we have all heard the "I have a friend with a problem" story before. If you're actually an exception, then you need only replace any instances of "you" with "him/her" for the meat of my response is just as valid, and just as honest.

When I was seven years old I saved, saved and saved some more, to buy magic x-ray glasses from the back of a comic. Have a guess how _that_ turned out.
I was not the first and your friend will not be the last.

Melted pin gold ingots are an honest scam.


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## bert_b (Apr 30, 2015)

jason_recliner said:


> bert_b said:
> 
> 
> > Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.
> ...



Thanks you for the nice answer.
Still not getting an answer to what I asked though, what can he do with what he has now that it's messed up.

I'm a third generation placer mine operator the only chemical I ever have to deal with is mercury and with a retort it's always worked the way it's supposed to.

All of these acids are foreign to me, but I was asked a question and said I would seek out an answer. If you have any Help it would be greatly appreciated. Even if I have to part all the info you need to get the answer I will but it's not my operation so info might be slow.

I believe he figured the ratios for the AR for 500g of shot he had made out of the ingots.
Let me know what other info is needed to make this a learning experience instead of a total failure. Thanks


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## bert_b (Apr 30, 2015)

Seems like the general response is he's up a creek.


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## MarcoP (Apr 30, 2015)

bert_b said:


> Still not getting an answer to what I asked though, what can he do with what he has now that it's messed up.


Smack did provided a valid reply with few questions and a temporary solution to your friend problem.


Smack said:


> Leave it sit for now, contain it but don't seal the container as it may build pressure. Next step, let us know what type of material you were processing. Most likely you will be cementing everything and starting over. You will also need to read up on how to treat and handle your waste solution. And make sure it's not in the house or anywhere that there is exposed metal, the fumes will attack everything metal.



It should be your friend best interest to directly ask questions either for safety precautions and to get a better understanding of various procedures.

Marco


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## bert_b (Apr 30, 2015)

MarcoP said:


> bert_b said:
> 
> 
> > Still not getting an answer to what I asked though, what can he do with what he has now that it's messed up.
> ...



Yes smack did and thank you for that.
While I agree it would be easier for him to be asking these things himself. As I previously stated he's in his fiftys and doesn't care for the internet. . . Or reading for that matter. I'm just trying to do right by someone I care about.

Ok so should I be looking up how to cement?

Also to respond to the other question the nitrate might have turned into a hard mass I have no idea I can ask tonight after he is off work or go look when I go over tonight. I will have a definitive answer then


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## Barren Realms 007 (Apr 30, 2015)

bert_b said:


> jason_recliner said:
> 
> 
> > bert_b said:
> ...




Under normal circumstances he would be advised to add a copper bar to the solution to cement out the gold that has gone into the solution. The problems with the situation you have described is that the gold content of your solution is going to be so small that it might not be worth recovering. With the addition of the sodium nitrate to the solution chances are the HCL will be used up before the nitric acid is used up in the solution. I would try putting a copper bar in the solution and see if the gold will cement out of the solution.


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## bert_b (Apr 30, 2015)

Ok I understand that better. Thank you for explaining that a little for me. 
Let me ask a follow up won't the nitric eat the copper? Or is that the HCL's job?
It sounds like copper acts like mercury in placer mining in that it attracts, the gold is attracted to it causing it to unsuspend from the acid solution? Am I understanding that right? 
How big of a copper bar are we talking here ? Would a pre 80's penny work or are we talking a 10-100g. Bar?

I'm not ignorant just uneducated in this area I will listen to all tutoring, I find it interesting and highly value the information.


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## MrMylar (Apr 30, 2015)

bert_b said:


> Ok I understand that better. Thank you for explaining that a little for me.
> Let me ask a follow up won't the nitric eat the copper? Or is that the HCL's job?
> It sounds like copper acts like mercury in placer mining in that it attracts, the gold is attracted to it causing it to unsuspend from the acid solution? Am I understanding that right?
> How big of a copper bar are we talking here ? Would a pre 80's penny work or are we talking a 10-100g. Bar?
> ...


The Nitric Acid will dissolve the copper, and that depends on how much nitric is in the solution and how much gold there is to recover and the outside temp. You need to be using pure copper. PURE. A pre-1982 penny is not pure copper. Get a copper pipe and either split it open to make it flat, or bang it flat with a hammer and then place it in the solution. Be prepared to let it sit for at least 2 days to make sure all the gold has been dropped out of the solution. Make sure to swirl the copper piece a few times a day while it's in the solution.

Test your solution with stannous and treat it accordingly.

Hope that helps!


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## Smack (Apr 30, 2015)

Put some pictures up of the solution. The problem with this solution is the amount of excess Nitric. You have to (by cementation through the electromotive process) use up that excess Nitric Acid. Urea is NOT neded. Without seeing it though it's hard for us to determine exactly what he should do. One thing that comes to mind is he should get the internet and educate himself right here on this forum. You would also be better served to read Hoke's book on Refining Precious Metal Wastes and this forum with what your doing mining, there is a mining section here as well.



Edited: I put he should forget the internet instead of get the internet. :roll:


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## Long Shot (Apr 30, 2015)

Maybe I am missing something Bert but the advice given is correct. First off, your friend should be doing this outside with good ventilation. He should get a 5 gallon pail suitable for acids and dilute the solution at least 100% with water, more will be merrier. Buss bar copper would be preferred to cement out all metals below iron. A flattened copper pipe will do but the buss is very effective. From there, the solution can be filtered off after a few days - it should turn a very pretty blue color but given the amount of nitric, he may have to add more copper than what one would think. This solution can then be further processed by adding some scrap steel, preferably iron, which will drop out the copper, it will turn a dark green. He can then filter out the copper precipitate and slowly and carefully add some carbonates (baking soda, etc.) to raise the solutions pH above 7 (preferably about 9) and the iron will drop. This will get all of the metals out of the solution. He can then start over with the cement from the copper drop. I am 53 and I have embraced the internet for a long time due to the vast information available, almost instantaneously. My best friend, however, is my age and is totally illiterate when it comes to computer technology so I can appreciate what you say about your friend. Thing is, if he is going to mess with this stuff he can't do so blindly or carelessly. Not only can he hurt himself but those around him and the environment. There are still libraries around or failing that, as suggested, there is an excellent and free book available here on the forum called Hoke's. It has been formatted so it can be downloaded and printed easily and if you friend or yourself wants a vast source of knowledge on any of this I would recommend you use your abilities to get it before he proceeds further.


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 30, 2015)

Like coins and things such as PM chalices stolen out of a Catholic church or hot jewelry, once those pins are melted, they lose their identity. The blobs are kept a mystery in the way they're sold and they're all different. The ads don't claim much, just that the blobs are made from melted pins. More than likely, they are made from lo-grade partially plated pins, if indeed they are made from pins. It would be stupid for them to use good all gold plated pins. I would guess the ones they use could run as low as 0.5 grams of gold per 1000 grams (2.2 pounds) of pins. Not much. Low enough so it could get lost in the process, especially for a beginner. It might be double that, but I would guess that would be about the top end if these crooks are as smart as I think they are.


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## Geo (Apr 30, 2015)

Some of the best pins I've worked with personally yielded 2g per pound. Those are fully plated with gold. There are some better but the majority will be much worse. Use the 2g per pound and see if it's worth the effort to try and recover it.


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## AndyWilliams (May 1, 2015)

Wow, that's all I can say, Wow. In my circle, we call something like this, double-hearsay! It's like taking the Bull by the tail because, really, how bad can it be?


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## patnor1011 (May 1, 2015)

Geo your 2g/pound equal to 0.4% from kilogram. I have no doubt that there are better pins out there but for gold ingots sold on ebay gold content will be much lower than this. I have processed some of these one time I was led to believe they are from carat gold only to find out they were from pins later. Next few I did out of curiosity and I would not accepted them even if they would be offered to me for free. Time and cost associated with refining them will be more expensive than any gold recovered from them.
OP's friend probably bought them on ebay. If that is the cause he should write it off as a loss and move on.


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## bswartzwelder (May 1, 2015)

I see that you only joined 2 days ago. The stock answer would be to tell your friend to stop what he is doing right away before he hurts himself or someone else. The question of dealing with these pins has been described many times over on this forum. If you really want to help your friend, use the search engine and go from there. There are many variables to deal with and by continuing without knowing what to expect is ludicrous. He needs to have a basic understanding of chemistry.

It could easily take months of study to get to where he needs to be. Many of these chemicals are dangerous in and of themselves and could easily create a deadly concoction when mixed. It would be easy to make an explosive mixture or a mixture which could conceivably give off cyanide gas. I hate to say this, but if he has unmarked bottles of chemicals laying around, he is playing Russian Roulette. That is one of the most stupid things I have heard in quite a while. Really. The best thing you can do is to slow him down or stop him completely while you still have a friend who is alive. I hope all ends up well for your friend. He could lose all the gold in that ingot, but if he survives, he would be miles ahead. Think about it. To be killed by something you don't know anything about except it might have some precious metals in it. At best, he would only have maybe a dollars worth of gold.


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## nickvc (May 1, 2015)

Bert I know most of the replies seem really negative but the guys are been honest and are trying to help you and your friend. If you or he do not want to read and study then my advice is to safely neutralise what has been already done and safely dispose of it.
Refining isn't a quick question and answer subject and the material in question is far from easy to recover and refine in the form it's in, there are no shortcuts someone has to learn the subject and that takes time and study and as the guys have said its rubbish material to start with, unmelted pins easy to do with a little study melted pins hard and not cost effective.
A search here on the forum will tell you this isn't the first time we have had newbies with exactly the same material and problems and the answers have always been the same, a waste of time and chemicals.
If your friend is serious about recovery and refining I'm afraid he is going to have to read and study there are no other options it's that simple.


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## MrMylar (May 1, 2015)

bswartzwelder said:


> I see that you only joined 2 days ago. The stock answer would be to tell your friend to stop what he is doing right away before he hurts himself or someone else. The question of dealing with these pins has been described many times over on this forum. If you really want to help your friend, use the search engine and go from there. There are many variables to deal with and by continuing without knowing what to expect is ludicrous. He needs to have a basic understanding of chemistry.
> 
> It could easily take months of study to get to where he needs to be. Many of these chemicals are dangerous in and of themselves and could easily create a deadly concoction when mixed. It would be easy to make an explosive mixture or a mixture which could conceivably give off cyanide gas. I hate to say this, but if he has unmarked bottles of chemicals laying around, he is playing Russian Roulette. That is one of the most stupid things I have heard in quite a while. Really. The best thing you can do is to slow him down or stop him completely while you still have a friend who is alive. I hope all ends up well for your friend. He could lose all the gold in that ingot, but if he survives, he would be miles ahead. Think about it. To be killed by something you don't know anything about except it might have some precious metals in it. At best, he would only have maybe a dollars worth of gold.


Exactly! Exactly!

If that is a friend who needs the help, by you being here and speaking the terms in this field, make me think you may very well know more about refining than your friend. Or, you could be the one needing the help, and this is where you're at in your process. Hey!!!, it happened to all of us before. You make mistakes, and HOPEFULLY, you'll live to learn from it.

From all I've read about the initial problem, I knew it was time for that friend to simply put everything safely away until experience really sinks in and takes place. Experience needed first is "READING" Hoke's book and also being actively search and reading the forum and the topics, replies, post links, etc., There is no quick and fast way to refine. It all takes time. And if a person doesn't that to spare, then they need not do it at all. Some regular processes take days, and in some cases weeks. It's not an overnight ordeal when you're refining. You MUST get EVERYTHING RIGHT.

I also mentioned this in another post, and that was "whether it's you or your friend, you BETTER LEARN right now to "Label" your chemicals and powders. You/he are/is playing a losing game. If you remove ANY chemicals or powders to another container besides its original one, then you MUST label them. You MUST. Mix the wrong things together and ....... BBOOOOMMMMM! As they say... "It ain't worth it". Label. Label, Label.

Hopefully your friend will understand that if he can get this far and decides he screwed up, he should take the time to study and fix what he screwed up. Now that makes sense. I screwed up some solution before (I thought I did) but I let it sit for a few months, and then I went back to it because all I needed to do was to add a piece of copper to my solution. You see, I took a few months to learn that all I needed was copper. That time not rushing to complete the refining, I learned other refining methods and things during that same time and when I went back to finish what I stared, I went in with confidence and made it work and it did as its supposed to do. It also worked because I had patience, and it paid off, and it still does.

If your friend dedicate more time reading and studying more, he would soon say " Ohhhh, so that's what I did wrong" and now know how to fix it. As long as you never throw your solutions away, your material is still there. Get back to it some other time.

Hope this helps!


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## artart47 (May 1, 2015)

Hi Burt!
I see you've been advised to cement any gold out on copper, Let me make it easier to understand. You have an acid solution with several metals dissolved as chlorides. Copper chloride,lead chloride....and hopfully a little gold chloride. If you place a piece of copper in the solution, the acid will dissolve the copper untill any remaining acid has been nutralized. Then, It will begine reacting with any metal salts that are below copper in activity. Gold is below copper. so, the copper will react with any gold chloride. It will knock the gold atoms out replace them as copper chloride. the gold will form a black coating on the copper wich usually falls off or I lightly scrub it off with a tooth brush and it will collect in the bottom of the beaker. 
You should study here on the forum how to recover and wash the powder for safe keeping untill you learn how to refine it.
In an earlier post on this thread you were told about using iron in the solution.
After you are sure any gold has been cemented and removed from the solution then in order to make the solution safe for disposal, you are doing a cementing operation agian, only this time you are using the iron to remove any copper/other base metals from the solution. Collect those metals in the same way.
Before you and your friend begin this download Hoke's book. Read it and our posts and tutorials untill you have a very good understanding of what you are doing and why.
Hope this helps!

artart47


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## galenrog (May 1, 2015)

I cannot add any advice to what has already been given. I will give a little commentary on what is known on this forum as "Hoke's book", or "Hoke". "Refining Precious Metal Wastes", by C M Hoke was published many decades ago as a guide for jewelers and others in that industry to recover and refine jewelry wastes. Written in a manner for most to easily understand, it focuses on proper processes, which are easily adaptable to other modern precious metal wastes, rather than chemical formulas. Several acquaintance experiments are described and MUST be understood. Although some details in some of the processes described have been improved on over the decades, the basics are sound. Study of Hoke combined with study of this forum will help your friend immensely. Since you are acting as laison between your friend and this forum, you will assuredly learn much also.


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## acpeacemaker (May 1, 2015)

After reading through this post several times. I am curious if your friend is not savvy or a friend to the internet. How did he get a hold of the drops or gold drop melts or whatever else they're called? Not picking or accusing. Just curiosity seeks this cat. :mrgreen: 

Take care
Andrew


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## bswartzwelder (May 1, 2015)

I am curious about the posts telling him to cement out the gold with a piece of copper. If the original pins contained copper, why would the gold cement out to a new piece of copper introduced into the mix? Wouldn't any gold dissolved into the solution cement out back onto the copper that is already in the ingot? \

I shuddered when I read that he had used chemicals from an unmarked container. Two or three unmarked containers is a recipe for disaster. 

It also appeared that the OP had read where we won't help anyone who hasn't done the required research and has tried to circumvent the system by saying it was for a friend without Internet access. I, for one, do not want to hold someone by the hand and tell them step by step what to do. That has been done on this forum for years. For that reason alone, the answers to all of his questions are all out there if you want to spend the time and do a little work for yourself.


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 1, 2015)

bswartzwelder said:


> I am curious about the posts telling him to cement out the gold with a piece of copper. If the original pins contained copper, why would the gold cement out to a new piece of copper introduced into the mix? Wouldn't any gold dissolved into the solution cement out back onto the copper that is already in the ingot? \
> 
> I shuddered when I read that he had used chemicals from an unmarked container. Two or three unmarked containers is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> It also appeared that the OP had read where we won't help anyone who hasn't done the required research and has tried to circumvent the system by saying it was for a friend without Internet access. I, for one, do not want to hold someone by the hand and tell them step by step what to do. That has been done on this forum for years. For that reason alone, the answers to all of his questions are all out there if you want to spend the time and do a little work for yourself.





> Ok so a technology confounded friend of mine recently made a mistake when refining with aqua regia and asked me to seek out the answer on how to correct the mistake. At the point of the instructions that urea is added to neutralize the nitric acid is where the confusion happened.
> 
> So not having his chemicals marked, and it being his first time, he got mixed up and instead of urea he added a bunch of sodium nitrate.
> 
> ...



If you read the OP's statement the sodium nitrate was used by accident while he was attempting to neutralize the remaining nitric in the solution. My guess is that the bar had been dissolved in the solution at this point, and that is why I suggested he use copper to cement out any gold that might be there. Normaly I would have suggested he use sulfamic acid to neutralize the nitric but he has stuck a large quantity of dissolved sodium nitrate. If he uses copper the solution will eat up the copper till the HCL is used up and it will leave him with a nitric rich solution with no HCL left in the solution. The gold will still drop from this solution using copper, he could even go so far as dropping the gold with SMB in the copper rich solution if he was familiar with what he was doing. 

Harold even asked the OP if he had tested the solution to see if gold was in the solution, but he probably realized after he posted that question that the posted would not get a reading from the test because of it being a heavy AR solution. Does that make him wrong for the suggestion, I don't feel it does, but he tried to help the user.

I don't consider this as holding his hand I consider this as giving a little bit of advise to get his gold out of the solution then read up on what he is doing and try again when he is better informed on what he is doing. 

I don't remember it being a rule that we cannot help someone, just a suggestion and my view on that suggestion is well know by everyone I would think that reads most of the messages on the forum.


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## AndyWilliams (May 1, 2015)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Harold even asked the OP if he had tested the solution to see if gold was in the solution, but he probably realized after he posted that question that the posted would not get a reading from the test because of it being a heavy AR solution. Does that make him wrong for the suggestion, I don't feel it does, but he tried to help the user.
> 
> I don't consider this as holding his hand I consider this as giving a little bit of advise to get his gold out of the solution then read up on what he is doing and try again when he is better informed on what he is doing.
> 
> I don't remember it being a rule that we cannot help someone, just a suggestion and my view on that suggestion is well know by everyone I would think that reads most of the messages on the forum.



I actually laughed when I read the above post! Even amongst those who choose their words carefully, Harold stands out. There is absolutely no chance that Harold had a suggestion and then posted that suggestion, before considering whether his suggestion would be appropriate.

But really, Harold didn't make a suggestion at all. He asked a question. A question that permits himself and others to assess the original poster's base of knowledge. If you cannot answer Harold's question, you shouldn't be doing anything with this solution.

I would be careful before employing Harold's question for your purposes, there is much more behind his questions than appears on the surface.


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## Geo (May 2, 2015)

Add 50% more copper by weight and melt it into anode bar and run it through a parting cell. If I had to give advice about it. Chemical separation would more than likely cost more than the metal contains.


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## MrMylar (May 2, 2015)

AndyWilliams said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > But really, Harold didn't make a suggestion at all. He asked a question. A question that permits himself and others to assess the original poster's base of knowledge. If you cannot answer Harold's question, you shouldn't be doing anything with this solution.
> ...


Again... Agreed 1 Million times!.

Help has been given and tips and advisement(s) have been initiated. Now, just wait to see if any thing positive came from all of this from the "op" and (or) the refiner. 

The message couldn't get any clearer than this. Put everything up safely and study before doing any more refining. It's that simple.

Hope that helps!


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## Harold_V (May 2, 2015)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Harold even asked the OP if he had tested the solution to see if gold was in the solution, but he probably realized after he posted that question that the posted would not get a reading from the test because of it being a heavy AR solution. Does that make him wrong for the suggestion, I don't feel it does, but he tried to help the user.


There was method to my madness----pointing out that trying to help those who know nothing (exactly what it appears this individual knows) results in providing information that simply leads to more questions. The solution to his inquiry, of course, is for the individual to try to gain a basic understanding of refining, so these things make sense, but the world is filled with individuals who seem to think that they are exempt from the rules---that they can, indeed, purchase a piano and schedule a recital without having ever played the piano. After all, what could go wrong?

In regards to testing a solution that is overly supplied with nitrates, the test can still be valid. Don't think for a moment that I hadn't paid attention to the problem. I had. I'd still test, but I'd also understand that the reaction would be fleeting---a quick eye would be required, otherwise the flash of purple would be missed, assuming there's gold in solution, which has yet to be ascertained, at least as far as I know. 

What could have easily happened in this case is for the individual to have exhausted the nitric (or HCl) before all of the solids had been dissolved. They, in turn, would have cemented the values, so precipitation would serve no purpose (that's why one should test), as the gold would not be in solution, but instead cemented and deposited in the solids found at the bottom, which, in this case, would include the excessive nitrates that would have been introduced. 

Trying to help this person is a waste of time. Unless readers are willing to carry him from the first operation through the last, there will be no end to questions, and I fear the environment will pay the price of an individual who isn't willing to learn what is required to solve the mystery that confronts him, and will do the very least he can to prevent the poisonous solutions and substances from being improperly discharged. After all, if a person has little to no patience for proper learning, what in hell makes any of you think he'd be interested in doing anything that doesn't pertain to his gaining some of that "fast and easy" money from gold?

I have, for some time now, tried to promote the idea that anyone new to the board should start out by getting informed. I did that with the idea in mind that the same tired questions that have been asked time and again would come to a slow stop, perhaps eliminating the clutter from the board, but that has proven to be not so effective, as "privileged" individuals seem to think the rules don't apply to them, especially when their case is "special".

I have wasted way too much of my time addressing these issues. It's coming to an end.

Harold


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## bert_b (May 2, 2015)

To reply to the repeating question,

Yes he got them off ebay(my 9year old can work ebay and YouTube) so that doesn't take much savy. Also much was purchased by his 23 year old daughter and son in law. Most of his info has been watching YouTube as reading is hard for him. I am really looking to help a buddy the repeated insinuations that it's me are wearing a little bit.

I will go read Hokes book if that's what needs to be done. I see a lot of good info being offered here I will get some pictures in the next day or so. Tomorrow is my son's birthday party so it might be a day or more but I'll get it done. Thanks for the helpful advice and I have some follow up questions but I think I'll ask them through private messages to the helpful commentors so no one feels like I'm needing to be hand held through a first lesson through twelfth lesson, or nobody feels like I'm trying to circumvent any rules. I apologize to any that may have felt that way.


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## nickvc (May 2, 2015)

Bert you seem to missing the point here.
The material is very likely rubbish with very little gold and will be an enormous amount of work to get what little is there, the cost of chemicals to simply recover let alone refine will outweigh the value then you have to refine it and then safely dispose of the solution all costing more money and time.
My honest opinion is to get your friend to relist it all on eBay and cut his losses, I know your trying to help your friend here but a reality check is needed he might not like it but it could save him even more of his hard earned money, unfortunately he and his daughter aren't the only ones to get caught by this material!


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## MarcoP (May 2, 2015)

If you really want to help your friend, you are the first one that needs to understand that he started with the wrong material to start with. nickvc said well, resell it as is, accept a tiny loss with a chance to earn a buk and close this chapter, painlessly and quickly.

If you or your friend is likely to happen to like refining, then reading is a must. There is no other way around if you want to get it right and yours and your friend's first chapter is a clear example of what happen otherwise.

Marco


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## patnor1011 (May 2, 2015)

500g of prime ebay gold drops will yield about 2 grams of gold in case there is any gold at all in them. Perhaps if your friend is lucky he may have about 5 grams there but that would be something what rarely seen with this type of fools gold.


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## AndyWilliams (May 2, 2015)

bert_b said:


> To reply to the repeating question,
> 
> Yes he got them off ebay(my 9year old can work ebay and YouTube) so that doesn't take much savy. Also much was purchased by his 23 year old daughter and son in law. Most of his info has been watching YouTube as reading is hard for him. I am really looking to help a buddy the repeated insinuations that it's me are wearing a little bit.
> 
> I will go read Hokes book if that's what needs to be done. I see a lot of good info being offered here I will get some pictures in the next day or so. Tomorrow is my son's birthday party so it might be a day or more but I'll get it done. Thanks for the helpful advice and I have some follow up questions but I think I'll ask them through private messages to the helpful commentors so no one feels like I'm needing to be hand held through a first lesson through twelfth lesson, or nobody feels like I'm trying to circumvent any rules. I apologize to any that may have felt that way.



Bert,

Every second that you spend on this project, he loses money and you lose time. Every second. Even for learning, this project is not worthwhile. You are working with the wrong material. 

For all intents and purposes, you are not only being handfed, you are asking to be handfed, no matter whether it is in front of everyone or in private. If it weren't so, you would read through this forum, all the answers are already there. And I would argue that those "helpful" commentators are really not so helpful. They seem helpful because they give you what you think you need. You spend nothing to get the information, not even your time. And you can't know if their information is helpful because you have no way to measure their advice. 

Whether it is a buddy or not, you are the one asking the questions, you are the one who is wasting your time, you are the one looking to be handfed through the processes. The two of you could better spend your time by reading the book. You could be halfway through it by now. You'll find it an extremely easy read; it's written for the layman. My problem, to this point, is that you have shown no respect to this board. The moderators on this board are highly knowledgeable, and their knowledge and experience have formed the basis for many others on this board to do the same thing to which you aspire. 

The larger flaw in your thinking is that because your friend couldn't get the free knowledge he needs from youtube (and I'm sure he looked there for the answer to his problem), that the solution was to find another avenue for free knowledge. Coming here to learn, and to invest time in your education, is what is usually best received. It is considered selfish, and I'm in this camp, to expect others to write the answer just for you, though the answer has already been written, before, many times.


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## butcher (May 2, 2015)

My wife who does not even know where the dip stick for checking the oil is in an engine. 

She bought an old broken down car, the previous owner said transmission slips and will not go into gear, she does not know if it is an automatic or standard transmission, none of the electrical works, the battery is new, and some of the wiring harnesses are burnt up, the engine is frozen.

She paid a lot of money for this car, and wishes to learn to fix it, to be able to drive it tomorrow, she needs the vehicle to get to work 30 miles one way, 60miles a day.

She has no mechanical skills, or skill in troubleshooting or repairing electrical problems.
But she can follow instructions, and is a fast learner if you can provide the information with pictures, as she is a hands on learner, and needs to see the process being done, so if you can walk her through the process she may be able to do it.

If you can help me by telling me how to fix her car, I can relay the info, so she could learn to get the job done as soon as possible, she does not have time to go to school to learn these skills, and does not have the money or desire to send the car to a mechanic.

Can you please help me to tell her how to fix her car and keep it running.
She really needs a dependable vehicle NOW.

Surely you can give me the instructions I need. so she can fix this small problem.

Epic failure!!! What do I do now???

Just need a little help, can you tell me how she can fix this problem, and learn to keep the car running with any more problems that will come along with this vehicle in the future?


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 2, 2015)

butcher said:


> My wife who does not even know where the dip stick is in an engine bought an old broken down car, the transmission slips and will not go into gear she does not know if it is an automatic or standard, none of the electrical works, and wiring harnesses are burnt up, the engine is frozen.
> 
> She paid a lot of money for this car, and wishes to drive it tomorrow to get to work 30 miles one way, 60miles a day, she has no mechanical skills, or skill in troubleshooting or repairing electrical problems.
> but if you can help me by telling me how to fix her car, I can relay the info so she could learn to get the job done.
> ...



Oh hey that is simple.

Go to the front of the car. Pop the hood where the engine is. Take the radiator cap off off of the radiator (that's the big black thing you can see through the front grill). Lift it up and have a couple of friend's push the car backwards out of the way after the transmission has been put in neutral (that would be the letter "N" in the small window where it says "PRND2L"). Now have another running car ready out of the way, and you keep standing there with the radiator cap, have one your friends drive that 2nd car under the radiator cap and put it on the radiator of the 2nd car and she is ready to go.


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## AndyWilliams (May 2, 2015)

butcher said:


> My wife who does not even know where the dip stick for checking the oil is in an engine.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Just need a little help, can you tell me how she can fix this problem, and learn to keep the car running with any more problems that will come along with this vehicle in the future?



This also gave me a good laugh! One modification, do it without a camera phone!


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## AndyWilliams (May 2, 2015)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Oh hey that is simple.
> 
> Go to the front of the car. Pop the hood where the engine is. Take the radiator cap off off of the radiator (that's the big black thing you can see through the front grill). Lift it up and have a couple of friend's push the car backwards out of the way after the transmission has been put in neutral (that would be the letter "N" in the small window where it says "PRND2L"). Now have another running car ready out of the way, and you keep standing there with the radiator cap, have one your friends drive that 2nd car under the radiator cap and put it on the radiator of the 2nd car and she is ready to go.



Barren, 

Man, I was gonna try this with my car, but I don't think it will work! My car doesn't have the PRND2L, it has PRND23, must be a different model. So I asked some guy on youtube with a video for changing radiator caps between cars and he said that my car needs an adapter because it is PRND23. Says my model is older than the ones you guys tried it on. So, I went to buy some magnetic gold drops that need to be on the engine when you're doing this changeover. $80 bucks a pair on ebay!! This guy will sell them to me for $60/pair. PHEW! Saved some bucks by going to youtube!! And you know what? They worked!


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 2, 2015)

AndyWilliams said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh hey that is simple.
> ...



Cool you got a deal then. I paid $100 a couple of years ago on one I had.


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## heliman4141 (May 2, 2015)

butcher said:


> My wife who does not even know where the dip stick for checking the oil is in an engine.
> 
> She bought an old broken down car, the previous owner said transmission slips and will not go into gear, she does not know if it is an automatic or standard transmission, none of the electrical works, the battery is new, and some of the wiring harnesses are burnt up, the engine is frozen.
> 
> ...



LOL................
Butcher you have a spectacular way of comparing complicated technical things in life &................. mixing in humour with it akin to chemistry. 
I do my own mechanical work as im sure many of us do & it just tickles me to read this stuff after what ive had to replace & fix in autos over the decades myself. 8) 

Dave


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## Pantherlikher (May 2, 2015)

Sure glad I don't get asked to answer tough questions like fixing the car...
Butcher...the cars need to be the same color for that to work...Duh...

Cereally though...

Show of hands on how many of us "newbies" thought there was an easy way of getting tons of gold from ...anything? Myself included.

bert_b...all these fine gentleman...yes...gentleman... have all been more then nice and polite in trying to give you the "right" answers to your "simple questions.
How to get the gold...?

Those gold Globs sold on ebay are not worth the effort. How much gold is definitely there should be your question to the sellers of these Globs.

Don't take the word of strangers on a gold forum that have combined Centuries of experience, knowledge and wisdon willing to freely share to keep this fine art alive.

Go back to Youtubgonnahurtya and watch until your eyes bleed hoping to find the simple and quick answers you seek. And go find these Glob sellers and ask them exactly how much gold you Will get out of them...See what kind of answers you get there...

Kind of like wishing in 1 hand and peeing into the other n seeing which fills faster...

Good luck and hopefully no one will get hurt on your friend's quest for riches...

B.S.
... PS. don't PM me and not expect me to post here...Cause I will...


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## artart47 (May 2, 2015)

Hi Friends!
You woulden't have to do all those repairs if you learned the "don't evers" of car ownership.
(1) If a person cuts an artery and thinks they are dying then wakes up in a hospital bed, Post tramatic stree syndrom! They are never the same mentally! Your car's computer is the same way. When you take the oilpan plug out the car thinks it's bleeding to death. It doesen't know that you're going to put new oil back in. PTSS never runs right again. Just keep driving it and adding oil and eventually it will leak enough oil so that every 3000 miles it's getting and oil change without knowing it. Don't ever chang the oil!
(2) If you took your new baby spreyed it with a hose and held him out your car windo soaking wet and drove down the road 55mph he would get chilled,a cold or pnumonia and be messed up for a long time. Why do people do that with their cars and then expect them to run well?
Don't ever wash your car!
(3) A system is in ballence Like the "yin and yang"thing. When you open your hood at night and see all those little sparks jumping around from plug wire to plug wire or valve cover, things have taken 40,000miles to reach that state of ballence. Then people go start tuning-up, changing wires etc... and everything get screwed up and it never runs the same. leave good enough alone!
Don't ever tune up you car!
Ha Ha!
artart47


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## necromancer (May 2, 2015)

butcher, i sent you a email, it has 24,281 photos. no text or instructions. just numbered photos
please forward this to your wife.

i hope the car is the same colour as the one in the pictures, not to cause any confusion.

P.S.
a friend of mine has trouble on GRF trying to get the spell checker to work in "Canadian English", using google chrome on a windows box (win 7)
can you ask your wife as soon as she is done fixing the car (tomorrow) if she can ask one of her friends to help me out.

thanks !!


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## butcher (May 3, 2015)

Recovery and refining is something that takes time to learn, these are skills just like learning to troubleshoot and fix vehicles.
Where we need to educate ourselves, and then practice what we learn to improve our skills.
There are dangers involved, where you can hurt yourself, or others if you do not know what you are doing.
Where you need to understand the principles, chemistry, and physics involved, where you need to understand enough chemistry not to harm yourself or others, and be responsible enough to learn how to treat the toxic solutions involved.

I was joking to make a point, but recovery and refining is no joke, it is serious business and should be taken seriously, any one wishing to learn these skills will need to be of the mindset that they will have a lot of study to do, and it will take a lot of work to gain the skills needed.

The forum can, and does help anyone wishing to learn, The forum is a huge database of information, members are willing to help anyone with their study or where they run upon a particular problem, or share ideas. but just like learning to become a good mechanic, you can not learn it from asking a questions and getting many answers to your post. we may be able to walk you through changing the oil on your truck, but if you want to rebuild the truck you will need to study, with study and you run into a road block with the repair, a member can be helpful at that point.

My wife just needs to see she overpaid for that junk car, either learn her lesson, or hire a mechanic, or take the years it takes to learn the skills needed to fix the car and put her nose to the grindstone.

I just told her to put a quarter in the car, and roll it off the side of the mountain, then she can say she lost something, and paid for a good education.


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## bswartzwelder (May 3, 2015)

Butcher, great response! However, if your wife does get the car running, I would hope she knows how to drive. Running red lights, driving down the wrong lane (kinda like they do in England - no disrespect to our English friends meant), speeding and heaven only know how many other improper ways to unsafely operate the car are just as bad or perhaps worse. At least in a car that's not running she would be less likely to kill herself or those around her. Give your wife my best wishes for putting up with you.

Bert S. - The other Bert


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## butcher (May 3, 2015)

She seen a you tube video on how to replace brakes, and wants to open shop, after she finds the tools she may need.

she just needs to know which spring goes on which side of the brake pad, and wonders why one pad is larger than the other one, does it matter which side of the care she puts it on, guessing the brake peddle is on the left the right side needed bigger pads, but for some reason she cannot get the drum back on that side, is there a trick they did not show in the video?


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## Barren Realms 007 (May 3, 2015)

butcher said:


> She seen a you tube video on how to replace brakes, and wants to open shop, after she finds the tools she may need.
> 
> she just needs to know which spring goes on which side of the brake pad, and wonders why one pad is larger than the other one, does it matter which side of the care she puts it on, guessing the brake peddle is on the left the right side needed bigger pads, but for some reason she cannot get the drum back on that side, is there a trick they did not show in the video?



It's starting to sound more like military intelligence at work here. :lol:


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## necromancer (May 3, 2015)

butcher, i thought that was a story you made up off the top of your head..........

in any case your more then welcome to borrow any of my tools, any time !!


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## butcher (May 4, 2015)

Thanks, she found this place to buy some tools.


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## acpeacemaker (May 4, 2015)

I wonder if any of those tools I could incorporate into my semi truck and trailer plating cell. Anyone have an Olympic size pool available?


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