# Simplified Refining Instructions



## Anonymous

A big thank you to Harold_V 

Anyone following these simplified instructions written by Harold_V along with Hokes book on refining precious metals will soon become a professional in the art of refining.

1. Processing Filings and Pieces of Gold Mixed With Minor Amounts of Silver
2. Incinerating the Waste
3. Screening
4. Silver
5. Testing White Metals
6. Platinum and Palladium
7. Aluminum
8. Processing the Filings
9. Inquartation
10. Dental Gold
11. Melting the Metal
12. Dissolving the Base Metals and Silver
13. Dissolving the Filings and Gold Mud With Aqua Regia
14. Evaporating the Gold Solution
15. Filtering the Gold Solution
16. Precipitating the Gold
17. Washing the Precipitated Gold
18. Drying the Gold Powder
19. Weighing and Packaging the Gold
20. Polishing Waste, Floor Sweeps and Ultrasonic Sludge
21. Procedures
22. Incineration
23. Screening the Material
24. Dealing With the Solids >From the Goldsmith's Waste
25. Dealing With the Solids >From the Silversmith's Waste
26. Dealing With the Incinerated Dirt From the Goldsmith's Waste
27. Dealing With the Incinerated Dirt From the Silversmith's Waste


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## golddie

I think the trick to learning is understanding.
I don't know if i am making sense or not.
But how many times we want to learn something or kids they want to learn something and its no understandable


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## Anonymous

golddie said:


> I think the trick to learning is understanding.
> I don't know if i am making sense or not.
> But how many times we want to learn something or kids they want to learn something and its no understandable




Harold_V's instructions on refining are so simply laid out in plain English a Baboon could refine precious metals following his instructions. Obviously you have not read the document.


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## Oz

I have not read the whole thing but at first glance it looks very good!

It took you a good deal of time to put that together and it will help many that have troubles finding what they are looking for with the search function. Just imagine the amount of time it took Harold to convey all that expertise. 

A thank you and hats off to you both.


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## qst42know

Harold, I take it that these are the instructions you left behind with your refinery?

And the fellow still failed?

That I don't understand.


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## patnor1011

they probably failed on one common thing among most of todays refiners. greed. :twisted:


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## Palladium

Another great find. 8) 8) 8) 
Gustavus, my hat's off to you. That's two good pdf's i've seen you post this week. 

Thanks.


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## Harold_V

qst42know said:


> Harold, I take it that these are the instructions you left behind with your refinery?
> 
> And the fellow still failed?
> 
> That I don't understand.


It takes more than instruction to succeed. One must have the will to work----and work as many hours as are required. Also, take note of patnor's comments. He hit the nail on the head. 

The individual in question fancied himself clever----immediately wanting to change the methods of operation ( remember, he had no experience in refining, but chose to second guess decisions I had made through experience), and was less than forthright with the customers. He single handedly killed in a few months that which took me years to establish. 

I do not consider myself wise in the way of business operations. What I do consider is that I am able to listen to those that I would serve, and make sure I did the things they expected, and to make sure I didn't do any of the things they didn't expect, or want. 

One of them was being honest. Even when a lot of gold was processed at a loss, I didn't dip into the values. I took that which was rightfully mine, and no more. The only exception is that which was tied up in waste materials, which, in the scheme of things, was a very small percentage. I expect no more than 1%, but I'll never know. 

The individual in question had many issues that didn't lend themselves well to success. Had I known that, he wouldn't have ended up with the business. He had me at his disposal to help in learning the processing, and had more work than he could handle. His lack of service and his dishonesty with customers, where he was selling customer gold to stay afloat, spelled his doom. 

Interestingly, he faults me with his failure, yet I had so much business that I was working 12 hour days, seven days/week. Even holidays were work days, in order to keep abreast of the flow. I withheld no information from him, as you can see, clearly. 

To his credit, I was paid in full for the business. I'm grateful for the decision I made to consult an attorney for the sale. That may have not been the case otherwise. 

I am not suggesting that following the outlines presented guarantee success, but they worked for me for years. They may not be the best procedures in all instances, but one thing I can guarantee-----they work, and they work well. I have no doubt, they are at odds with many of the procedures used by large refiners-----but I wasn't a "large" refiner. 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi gustavus
You didn't understand be 
I wrote that to point out that it was easy to understand.


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## golddie

HI Harold
I didn't know this story about the person that bought your business and he failed
Thanks for reminding us about greed.
It is a terrible thing and it destroys many people.
Its too bad that the person that bought your business blamed you.
The fact that you are here helping so many people that you don't even know.
You had no reason to want him to fail.


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> HI Harold
> I didn't know this story about the person that bought your business and he failed
> Thanks for reminding us about greed.
> It is a terrible thing and it destroys many people.
> Its too bad that the person that bought your business blamed you.
> The fact that you are here helping so many people that you don't even know.
> You had no reason to want him to fail.


His primary complaint is that I wouldn't forgive the note he signed. For some reason, he expected me to take a bullet when the shortcomings were his, not mine. I had spent years developing what turned out to be a wonderful small business, albeit not one that was planned. 

To be quite truthful, I am furious that he killed something that was one of my life's accomplishments. I would have been very proud to have seen him succeed, but that was not to be. It is for that reason I would not have sold to him, had I known he was a flake, and that is what he turned out to be. 

Harold


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## Anonymous

Harold, just want to thank u.

Its not a nice thing you have done, but more than that. Its a plenty great knowledgefull which priceless for all of us here. I just starting to learn what I have here and just taken a small step to gather stuff (cheapos/junk yard) to make a homemade gold refining system (2-5Kg scrap/day)(AR?).

Thanks to u and for all other guys who contributes here.

dewa


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## goldsilverpro

Am I missing something? Where is the pdf link, Gustavus?


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## markqf1

I've read this thread before and wondered the same thing.

Mark


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## glorycloud

They are probably referring to this PDF written by Harold I believe.


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## 2002valkyrie

Hi all, I am very new and have read and watched videos till my head hurts. Thanks for the link there Glorycloud I was having a little trouble following this string. Now I am in awe of all. this is the greatest forum in the www. I will be processing some scrap jewelry soon.


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## Rhodium

Welcome to the forum.


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## 2002valkyrie

Thanks Rhodium, I am learning so much so fast it's like a whole new world opening up for me.


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## Anonymous

glorycloud said:


> They are probably referring to this PDF written by Harold I believe.




I am brand new (just joined the forum last night). I read this thread and also wanted to read the document Harold wrote. However the attachment stated it does not exist anymore. Does anyone know where I can locate this attachment?

Thanks (the brand new guy)


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## goldsilverpro

Brand New Guy,

I think this is it.


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## Anonymous

please help, this is my first forum- but should there be an attachment or link. By the amount of views this is a must read!


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## joem

go back a few posts, I just downloaded the pdf myself


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## Anonymous

Thanks for the response, i thought getting chemicals in New Zealand was hard enough. Did the pdf come out as code for you?


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## joem

ryanf said:


> Thanks for the response, i thought getting chemicals in New Zealand was hard enough. Did the pdf come out as code for you?



go to goldsilverpro's post it works fine


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## Anonymous

Hello , I wonder how is the best way to extract gold values from plated jewellery, What is the cheapest method??


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## goldsilverpro

joshua289 said:


> Hello , I wonder how is the best way to extract gold values from plated jewellery, What is the cheapest method??



The plating on gold plated jewelry is typically very thin. I would estimate the gold value to be from about $0.05 to $0.10 per square inch of plated area. There are a few exceptions but they are most always stamped with such markings as HGE, Karatclad, etc.

To be profitable, you would need a lot of it - I, personally, would want at least a hundred pounds to even consider setting up to do it. For this material, I would say any method that required dissolving the base metal would not be profitable. Therefore, you would need a method that would selectively strip the gold plating without effecting the base metals. Three methods come to mind, cyanide, iodine, or the electrolytic sulfuric stripper that has been covered in great detail on this forum. Personally, I would use cyanide, but this is generally unavailable to the small user. Iodine is expensive and is also hard to get. The sulfuric stripper can be easily set up but is slow unless you have a fairly large setup and are able to tumble the parts.

Were I you, I would study the forum to determine what is required in these processes. Also, I would measure and calculate the surface areas of some of the pieces in order to get an idea of the value and then determine whether it's worth it or not. If you have just a small amount, I would forget it.


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## PreciousMexpert

Hi Folks
In this pdf Harold wrote he says


> At that point, add enough tap water to double the volume in the
> beaker and pour off the solution into the bucket containing copper bars. You will recover the silver in this operation, along
> with any platinum group metal that will be in solution.


I cant understand what happens here
The silver will precipitate and then what will happen to the platinum and palladium
I am sure there is a thread about this maybe someone can give me the link
Thanks


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## Barren Realms 007

PreciousMexpert said:


> Hi Folks
> In this pdf Harold wrote he says
> 
> 
> 
> At that point, add enough tap water to double the volume in the
> beaker and pour off the solution into the bucket containing copper bars. You will recover the silver in this operation, along
> with any platinum group metal that will be in solution.
> 
> 
> 
> I cant understand what happens here
> The silver will precipitate and then what will happen to the platinum and palladium
> I am sure there is a thread about this maybe someone can give me the link
> Thanks
Click to expand...


The copper will also cement out of your solution the platinum and the palladium to recover and refine.


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## PreciousMexpert

Barren
If silver ,platinum and palladium cement out than how do you separate than from each other


Theoretical Process for Dental Lab Dust-Collector Material
In this thread I see a lot of help but Still I didn't get my answer


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## Barren Realms 007

After they cement out you process the material in nitric to recover the silver and palladium and the residue that is left should be platinum and you run it in AR.


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## Harold_V

PreciousMexpert said:


> I cant understand what happens here
> The silver will precipitate and then what will happen to the platinum and palladium


The pregnant solution (containing silver, plus traces of palladium and/or platinum) will be poured to a vessel containing copper. The copper will cement the silver, then, as the silver content is exhausted, the palladium and/or platinum will cement. When it's present in your solution, it will generally have a green color instead of blue. Be certain to test with stannous chloride any time you deal with silver. 

Be advised that the platinum metals can be slow to cement. You can see them accumulate by the black coloration of the cemented silver. When they have been extracted, my experience was that the barren solution turned blue. Regardless of color, always test with stannous chloride to insure you aren't leaving values behind.

The platinum metals (as well as traces of gold) are not recovered directly from the cement silver. Instead, the cement silver should be washed well, then melted and poured as an anode. When the silver is parted in a silver cell, the values will be left behind in the anode slimes. It is the slimes you process for recovery of the platinum metals. By allowing silver to carry them, they are concentrated, making recovery worth the effort. 

Harold


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## golddie

> Burn it very well, at the end heating it with the torch until all combustion has ceased and the glowing bits have burned out.



Hi Harold 
I had a mixture of polishing dirt and some sand paper I incinerated these things together.
On a electric hot burner and it got real hot and I let it stay there for a while.
and I tried what you say here with one of these
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/ablative/ul100.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/ablatex1.html&usg=__Czfj0ljEDwlDsDXntcXyCBmwg2k=&h=902&w=600&sz=20&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=OVQPxIdkIp2SaM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=79&ei=dMZCTZP_HMKB8gbPpJ3IAQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpropane%2Btorch%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D578%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=596&oei=dMZCTZP_HMKB8gbPpJ3IAQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&tx=40&ty=47

I had on low volume and I noticed that the dirt was being blown away from the force of the fire.

I do propane and acetylene 
I think acetylene will also blow away the dirt
I am thinking about trying a propane torch the kind used by jewelers not the mini torch


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.submarineboat.com/images/metal_working/Harbor_Freight_propane_torch.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.submarineboat.com/foundry.htm&usg=__OpeKGUF2RFYnepyOvJMW_r0e25I=&h=199&w=360&sz=29&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=8WjSj9t5yXgw5M:&tbnh=95&tbnw=172&ei=dMZCTZP_HMKB8gbPpJ3IAQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpropane%2Btorch%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D578%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=251&vpy=128&dur=496&hovh=159&hovw=288&tx=144&ty=47&oei=dMZCTZP_HMKB8gbPpJ3IAQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0
I dont have one on these but I think it will also be strong
I guess the reason for burning with strong fire is so that you use less acid otherwise it does not matter
Am I right about this
Also maybe you can tell me which type of torch would be best 
Thanks


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## Oz

I am assuming that since you have acetylene that you also have oxygen. 

What I do is heat an old stainless steel pan from below with a propane burner until I get a dull red heat. I then stir my material in the pan and pass a flow of oxygen over the material in the pan from the top at the same time so it can be completely combusted. This does not need to be a strong flow of oxygen as to displace fine particles.


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## Harold_V

The process described by Oz is exactly what I pursued. 

Torch! 

The one I'd like to recommend I can no longer find. I purchased mine back in the early 80's, from Freshman's Supply, in Utah. Unfortunately, they no longer carry the torch, and I've been unsuccessful in locating it elsewhere. It was a large Hoke type torch, with the tip resembling a rosebud. That's the torch I used to use for both incineration and for melting pure gold. For melting I had a second tip, one that was kept scrupulously clean, to avoid contamination of the gold. 

It may not be obvious from the photo, but I fueled my torch with natural gas @ 1 pound delivery pressure, and oxygen. 

You can see the (well used) torch on the left side of the picture, below. 

A comment on complete combustion. 

It is well known that activated carbon absorbs gold in solution. That it does from gold chloride, or not, I can not answer, but if nothing else, any remaining carbonaceous matter will act as a sponge, so values will be trapped that are difficult to recover. I highly recommend complete combustion, for many reasons. Follow the procedure outlined by Oz. 

Sorry I'm not more help. 

Harold


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## Oz

Harold_V said:


> The process described by Oz is exactly what I pursued.


Harold, I only wish I could give proper credit to the individual that was fundamental in teaching me the value of incineration, LMAO. For those of you new here that do not get this joke, it is Harold that taught me just how valuable this is. Not just when changing acids, but also in recovering all traces from filters and other carbonatious materials used in refining. 

I am going to point out something Harold said as a “by the way” in the title he had on the picture he shared. You should always have a dedicated melting and casting tray or pan like what Harold has in the picture he shared. I do not know what material he constructed his pan/tray out of, but mine is approximately the same size and made of plywood. Depending on how much material you process you may be surprised by how much in the way of very fine beads, spatter, or PM gases that condense, and accumulate in such a dedicated space. 

I chose plywood because at the end of its useful life it is easily incinerated to recover fine values contained within it. In the meantime I use an insulating block under my melting crucible to protect my plywood tray/pan from the heat. I also sweep it out monthly with a painters brush and refine the resulting fine powder that accumulates. It is well worth your time if you process any quantity of material. 

We work so hard to extract all values before discarding the rest as waste. Why would you choose to lose it under the torch in a far more concentrated form? 

All of this falls under the category of my old friend Irons advice, “get everything but the squeal”.


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## Harold_V

Oz said:


> I do not know what material he constructed his pan/tray out of,


3/8" thick Transite (cement bonded asbestos). 
It was still available when I built my lab. My entire hood was made of asbestos, although three different types. I used what I could get. 

Harold


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## golddie

Harold_V
Oz
Thanks for your help

Can you give me more explanation about the pan/tray 
I don't recall Hoke using something like that


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> Can you give me more explanation about the pan/tray
> I don't recall Hoke using something like that


Hoke made no mention of a tray, as I recall. Mine was the result of having tipped a five ounce lot of molten gold on top of my bench, with a portion then running off to the floor. Even with a thorough cleaning of the entire garage (that was my first lab), I still lost about a quarter ounce of gold. My logic then was to melt in a pan, so if I experienced a spill, it would be contained. 

Little did I realize, at the time, that I would use that pan regularly, not just for melting my refined gold. I placed a small circle of asbestos board inside, on which I'd place my melting dish, for inquarting. 

When I melted my refined gold to pour shot, I also used a pair of asbestos boards that stood erect, behind the dish. They prevented the miniscule balls of gold that would leap from the dish from escaping. After melting 75 ounces or more, there was always a small collection of tiny balls in the pan. They were returned to my first refined gold to be reprocessed, not knowing if they had been contaminated, or not. At any rate, having a pan is one of the smartest things I came up with. I would recommend one to anyone that is melting and pouring. 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi Harold 
Thanks for you help
This polishing dirt that I have with a mixture of sand paper and some other things from jewelers bench
I have been boiling this thing for about 4 or 5 times and the liquid is still green.
How many times does it normally take to have it so that the green is gone in the liquid 
Thanks


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## nickvc

Golddie I'm going to assume that your now processing the incinerated sweeps powder in AR if that is the case the colour of the solution is due to the copper and other base metals that make up Karat gold alloys.


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> Hi Harold
> Thanks for you help
> This polishing dirt that I have with a mixture of sand paper and some other things from jewelers bench
> I have been boiling this thing for about 4 or 5 times and the liquid is still green.
> How many times does it normally take to have it so that the green is gone in the liquid
> Thanks


When I processed such material, after incineration and proper screening, to remove large particles that may not dissolve without difficulty, I then literally boiled the material in HCl. I'd use a rough balance of water and HCl, covering the material with a generous amount extra. You couldn't generally tell if there was still anything being dissolved, but I'd boil the material for at least 15 minutes. When I removed the vessel from heat, I'd fill with tap water, stir well, then allow the solids to settle. That could take minutes, or hours. Once settled, I'd rinse with tap water, stirring well once again, then allowing the material to settle once again. My experience dictated that a couple rinses with tap water were generally enough to lower the contained base metals that were in solution. 

I would then go to AR to dissolve the values. It was my experience that there was generally little to no base metal remaining, proven by the nice yellow solution that came from the values. Gold precipitated from this process tends towards being very clean, especially when compared to gold that comes from processing dirty filings directly, without inquartation. 

I do not recall ever having to go back for further processing this kind of material---one hard boil and proper rinsing appeared to be sufficient. 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi Harold
Thanks for your help
So far I am just using hcl and water and its my first time so I am doing it slowly until I get the hang of it.
I have watched steves video on siphoning and I tried that and I couldnt do it
I have to get used to siphoning


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## gotthebug2

goddie;
Place some mud in a beaker with water to practice on, much cheaper than PM's, another handy thing for me is to use a plastic clothes pin to hold the hose in place while starting with the syringe.


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## lazersteve

Siphoning can be as easy as filling a tube with water and lowering one end into the solution while covering the other end to keep the water from flowing out.

Once the opposite end is in the source container under the solution level, lower the end you have your finger over and release into the catch bucket to begin the siphoning action. The bottom of the source container should be elevated above the top level of the catch container.

Steve


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## Oz

Oh my goodness, I just had a terrible thought. I certainly hope that given the difficulties suggested in “siphoning”, that someone was not trying to siphon acids like some do gasoline by sucking on the end of a hose.


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## golddie

This batch of dirt that I have was boiled in HCL for about 5 times and today I poured it all in a funnel with a filter.
I have no experience in this but to me it looks like silver
If it is dry than tomorrow I will incenerate it again
and more HCL and water boil
Am I overdoing things
Should I test it with solution A or should I just do nitric and water half half
I was going to use AR but I am not sure about that


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## Barren Realms 007

If you truely boil it in HCL you have the chance of dissloving some if any of your gold.


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> If it is dry than tomorrow I will incenerate it again and more HCL and water boil
> Am I overdoing things


Yes, you are, and it makes no sense. If your purpose is to apply more HCl, filtration and drying is a worthless process. The only exception would be if you feel you could eliminate something by incineration. If you did your work properly before the first digest, there should be nothing to eliminate, for you would have incinerated fully then. If your next move would be to go to nitric, incineration is required. If your next move would be to go to AR, it's a wasted step. 

The only way you'll get a feel for what you're doing is by proceeding to the next step. If you find you left base metals behind, you'll know that you need to do more for future batches. If you overdo and think that's the necessary amount, you'll then overdue everything in the future. Make a mistake or two along the way, but understand what the mistake is, and how to correct for the future. That's how you learn. 

By the way, you said you think there's silver present. If there is, and it's the main value, you should have avoided the HCl process, and gone directly to a nitric digest. It would be very helpful if you could describe the source of your material, and what it looks like now. Tonight I don't think you have any gold present, otherwise you wouldn't be talking about silver. Color in this material is very telling. What color is the material now?



> Should I test it with solution A or should I just do nitric and water half half


You should test with solution A (stannous chloride) at all turns, especially when you're new to refining, and especially when you are working with unknown materials. That way if you happen to dissolve some values, they can be recovered. If you discard solutions without testing, you won't know if they should be discarded, or not. 



> I was going to use AR but I am not sure about that


Neither am I, now. You must be more forthcoming of information, or tough it out alone. The choice is yours. None of us can read your mind, nor can we see what you have in your vessels unless you post a picture. That is usually very helpful.

A little friendly advice. Using punctuation is very helpful in allowing readers to better understand what you're trying to say. Please do not run all your sentences together. If nothing else, please use a period where appropriate. 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi Harold
How are you 
I appreciate your help very much.
I did diamond setting and made some silver jewelery and this batch is from that and this was a while ago so I don't remember what I have in here but it looks like silver mud maybe I am wrong but gold mud would look yellow and here I don't see any yellow

I also boiled this thing for so long that maybe the gold went into the solution like Barren was saying
but it is a good thing I still have the waste liquid I will have to check with solution A

My sentences look like a mess I need to have a crash course on writing and grammar

In all the entire amount is not very much I am not able to tell how many grams I am thinking of spiting this batch in half and make one part hcl/water and the second part nitric/water

Or I might wait for a camera and get an opinion based on your judgment from what you see in the picture

Thanks again


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## golddie

I am experimenting with 3 different batches of similar dirt and I will number each batch and describe each a bit
Batch 1
This is a mixture of polishing dirt and sandpaper dirt(mixture of gold and silver)
This is the batch I have been asking about till now
I have not done any new work on this today it is just filtered and I might split it in 2 and do half with nitric and water
and the other with AR

Batch 5
This is silver bench filings 
I started this today and I used nitric and water half half
I got a green solution with some residue in the bottom of the beaker what should I do with it
According to the notes I should decant and add more water and nitric to the residue in the bottom
Than collect all the nitric and process it with salt or sugar(I will get to that later in more detail)


Batch 3
This is silver polishing dirt 
I started this today and like batch 5 there is a residue in the bottom of the coffee pot and the liquid is 
reddish.
Should I decant and add more water and nitric to the residue in the bottom
Than collect all the nitric and process it with salt or sugar(I will get to that later in more detail)

For batch 3 and 5 I am only processing a small amount something like 4 tablespoons of dirt and fill
Thanks


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## golddie

Right now I have batch 3 and batch 5 
I am wondering why the liquids have color in them one is red and the other is green
Did I do something wrong with the boiling part this time I only boiled about 15 minutes


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> Hi Harold
> How are you
> I appreciate your help very much.
> I did diamond setting and made some silver jewelery and this batch is from that and this was a while ago so I don't remember what I have in here but it looks like silver mud maybe I am wrong but gold mud would look yellow and here I don't see any yellow


That's not necessarily true. If you're dealing with mud, material that comes from incinerating filters, polishing wastes, maybe even floor sweeps, there's little reason for you to expect the color to be yellow, and it rarely is. What you can expect, assuming there's been polishing included, is for the color to be purple. Finely divided gold isn't yellow, it displays purple. 

I think it's time for you to determine what you're really working with. Are you working with filings, or are you working with the things I mentioned, above? You would handle filings in a different fashion. Lets clear the air on that issue before I comment any further. 



> also boiled this thing for so long that maybe the gold went into the solution like Barren was saying
> but it is a good thing I still have the waste liquid I will have to check with solution A


That's correct. You should ALWAYS test solutions, for you never know when there is some chemical involved that can result in the dissolution of values. It's not likely, but it's not impossible. Wise people always test, even when they *think* they know a solution is barren. 



> My sentences look like a mess I need to have a crash course on writing and grammar


What you have done in this one helps, but a period at the end of a statement tells the reader that you have finished that thought. Otherwise one doesn't know if you're through talking, or the next line is part of your comment. Please start using periods if you do nothing else.



> In all the entire amount is not very much I am not able to tell how many grams I am thinking of spiting this batch in half and make one part hcl/water and the second part nitric/water


That's one way to gain an understanding. If you're working with a small batch, it won't require much effort. Remember---if you go from HCl to nitric, you should incinerate until you've heated the material quite hot--hot enough to burn anything carbonaceous. By doing so, you'll insure that you have eliminated all of the HCl, lowering the risk of dissolving values prematurely. 

Again, are you trying to process filings? If so, did you combine them with anything else? 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi Harold 
The batch where I am processing silver polishing dirt and what I did was boil in nitric and water half half.I got a reddish color in the nitric.I wanted to know how many minutes should I have boiled this thing I did about 15 minutes is that good or should it be for longer time like 1 hour. Also once I do I siphon the liquid or do I filter and than I guess I will have to start the cementation process
Thanks


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## golddie

> silver polishing dirt and what I did was boil in nitric and water half half


I did this yesterday and I am now watching videos on making silver nitrate and here silver crystals grow in the solution after a while.
When I go to my shop I hope I that does not happen because I didn't separate the dirt from the liquid


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> Hi Harold
> The batch where I am processing silver polishing dirt and what I did was boil in nitric and water half half.I got a reddish color in the nitric.I wanted to know how many minutes should I have boiled this thing I did about 15 minutes is that good or should it be for longer time like 1 hour. Also once I do I siphon the liquid or do I filter and than I guess I will have to start the cementation process
> Thanks


There is no real way to determine if you have boiled long enough, although the addition of a little more nitric should make no difference. What that means is if you have already dissolved all the silver (which happens fast), when you add more nitric (an ounce for a liter of material is more than enough) and you don't get any more brown fumes, you can safely assume that you have. 

When you are confident you have dissolved all of the silver, you should then add water to the vessel, and stir well. That will dilute the solution, which, in turn, will prevent the formation of the silver nitrate crystals you have described. If they persist, use more water. I always used tap water, not caring if I created a little silver chloride, because all of my waste was further processed. If you prefer to not create any silver chloride, use distilled or deionized water. Stir well, allow to settle, then siphon the solution. Repeat with more water, until you get no reaction when testing the solution with a drop of HCl (test a sample, do not drop HCl in the solution). I suggest you filter only the solids, after you have siphoned off the bulk of the rinse solution. If you use an S&S Sharkskin, it's tough and will retain the processed dirt, yet allow fast filtration. If you try to filter the first solution, chances are VERY good it won't filter worth a damn. Do use a hose and siphon unless you have a lot of time to waste. 

The reddish color you speak of is likely the result of dissolving Tripoli, which is iron oxide. That is to be expected, and it's not much of a problem. Do test the solution with stannous chloride, however, in case some gold is present and has been dissolved. Stranger things have been known to happen. 

Unless you are absolutely certain that this material does NOT contain gold, once you have rinsed out the silver, you would then go after any remaining values using AR. If you suspect that gold is present, I highly recommend you incinerate, then screen, then do an HCl wash before attempting to dissolve further values. That will insure that the solution will filter properly. Not following this process can result in a solution that refuses to filter.

In the end, in spite of your best efforts, the material will not be barren of values. I suggest you incinerate to expel traces of acids, then store them. If you accumulate enough of this type of waste, it can be submitted to a major refiner for further recovery, or it can be processed in a furnace. It's almost always worth the trouble, and can be the source of a nice sum of money. 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi Harold 
I have a few experiments going on so that we don't have a mix up I will concentrate on the 2 batches that are very similar.
Batch 5
This is silver bench filings 

Batch 3
This is silver polishing dirt 


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4767&hilit=Silver+Powder+in+Nitric+Acid&start=20


All the residue went to the bottom because I left it overnight, the red from the Tripoli went to the bottom 
also both solutions looked similar I was able to siphon successfully and I was tempted to mix them together and good thing I didn't because looks can be deceiving. 
For one thing yield form batch from the silver polishing dirt looked less than the other and also after a few hour 
of copper in this solution the color was different than the other.
I have left some copper in the 2 bathes so it stay there over the weekend 

On this page There is a green solution and the result from my 2 batches were very close to looking like that
before I placed in the copper pieces.Sorry for not being able to supply pictures this time around. 

I appreciate your help.


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## Oz

golddie said:


> Hi Harold
> I have a few experiments going on so that we don't have a mix up I will concentrate on the 2 batches that are very similar.
> Batch 5
> This is silver fillings
> 
> Batch 3
> This is silver polishing dirt


Golddie,

I am assuming this is once again a misspelling and you are not processing “fillings” but meant to say silver filings. Please check and correct your posts for this error, and be very careful about this in the future. I understand “you” know the difference, but we cannot afford to have an error like that on the forum. Someone new may read what you write and think it is ok to put dental fillings in nitric. It is not, and could result in mercury poisoning!


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## golddie

Hi Oz
You are right about that 
I think if I write in capital letters it will be easier to see
I am talking about FILINGS from a jewelers bench
and FILLINGS are from dentists and most likely contain mercury
Thanks


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> I was able to siphon successfully and I was tempted to mix them together and good thing I didn't because looks can be deceiving.


So long as you are not trying to determine the yield from each batch, mixing them together is acceptable. 



> For one thing yield form batch from the silver polishing dirt looked less than the other and also after a few hour
> of copper in this solution the color was different than the other.


My guess would be that the solution from the filings was blue, whereas the solution from the polishing waste was likely green. That's to be expected, due to the iron dissolved in the polishing waste. I could also be wrong, for if filings had iron included, it's possible they would be discolored darker yet. I had a policy of using a magnet after incineration and screening, to remove as much iron as I could. It always carries traces of values, so it was sent to my stock pot, where they are eventually recovered.



> I have left some copper in the 2 bathes so it stay there over the weekend


You should take a look at the operation and insure that the silver isn't creating a hard coating. If it is, you'll have to strip the surface, otherwise it can cease to cement. That's not a common occurrence type of thing, and is less likely to happen when you are working with dilute solutions. Remember to stir the entire lot at some point in time. Cement silver that is first deposited can drag down silver nitrate that won't get cemented. By stirring vigorously, it is liberated and eventually cemented. I used to do that with a gloved hand. 

Test the solution with stannous chloride as the silver concentration is depleted. If there's any platinum or palladium present, it will be slow to cement. It usually comes down after the silver. 

When you think all of the silver is down, take a small sample of the remaining solution, and add a drop of HCl. If you get no cloudiness, the silver is down. If you do, allow the solution to remain on copper longer. 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi Harold 
When I placed a piece of copper in the batch of the liquid from the polishing dirt there was lot of fizzing I guess that is normal.
I think you said don't use copper wires but I said I will try it in the beginning phase of the operation since the fizzing was so fast that I would have to worry about silver getting in between the wires,I still have not looked at this thing closely I will do that Monday.I placed the copper piece in the jar of liquid with those plastic things for tightening electrical wires together
When I took a quick look on Friday I noticed that one part disappeared is that normal

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sitesplus.co.uk/user_docs/638/Image/Black%2520Cable%2520Ties%2520edited.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.toolsandhardwaredirect.co.uk/catalogue.php%3Fcat%3D505%26subCat%3D1163%26item_id%3D6108&usg=__P1r-gH6o6M9PMrXGWY6MrfHswbc=&h=426&w=640&sz=21&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=Be29niu5LB2-1M:&tbnh=108&tbnw=163&ei=oKVOTb3jFcWqlAeelezrBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delectrical%2Btightening%2Bplastics%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D578%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C464&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=266&oei=m6VOTZylN4SclgeQ4eT3Dw&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:15&tx=97&ty=48&biw=1024&bih=578
Before melting the silver I am planning to wash it with hcl.
Thanks very much for your help


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## golddie

I am not sure about this but the liquid that I will have left over from this project will be copper nitrate.
If that is the case I have a few links to good threads like


> what to do of copper nitrate


.
I am thinking that if I can find a person I can sell this to than that will be the best thing.
I went to eBay and they sell copper nitrate and it looks like powder,is it always sold like that or do they sell them in liquid form as well.


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## golddie

I am not sure about this but now I have the silver cemented out and I have copper chloride
How will I separate these 2 I am guessing that I will siphon the liquid from the silver and rinse silver with hcl and pour it on the filter paper than dry everything and melt it and pour it in water


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## Frankk12

On steves web site there are the AP videos I think you can use his techniques from those 4 videos


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## golddie

Thanks for that info Frank
I have news about the 2 batches

Before I placed the copper pieces in the solution both looked the same
This was on the Friday and on Tuesday they seemed completely different

Batch 3
This is silver polishing dirt
After the weekend the color was dark green and it was kind of dirty looking and the plastics that I placed in there were melted
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sitesplus.co.uk/user_docs/638/Image/Black%2520Cable%2520Ties%2520edited.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.toolsandhardwaredirect.co.uk/catalogue.php%3Fcat%3D505%26subCat%3D1163%26item_id%3D6108&usg=__P1r-gH6o6M9PMrXGWY6MrfHswbc=&h=426&w=640&sz=21&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=Be29niu5LB2-1M:&tbnh=108&tbnw=163&ei=oKVOTb3jFcWqlAeelezrBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delectrical%2Btightening%2Bplastics%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D578%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C464&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=266&oei=m6VOTZylN4SclgeQ4eT3Dw&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:15&tx=97&ty=48&biw=1024&bih=578
I found that a bit strange I had also tied some copper with fishing lines and those were still there and I am wondering if those plastics will contaminate the silver.

Batch 5
This is silver bench filings 
The color of this after cemanatation looked like sky blue and clean 
silver yield with this is much more than the other batch


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## golddie

I am wondering why everyone can post pictures and mine wont post and I am following the guided tour directions


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## golddie

I am still busy fixing up my system so I am not able to do any real refining but from what I have done so far every batch looked good even though I have not completed the project except the one where I did the silver polishing dirt with nitric and water.
I still don't have pictures but the liquid seemed cloudy and dirty and the remaining powder didn't look like the other batch.
How about first boiling with hcl and water and than washing it than doing nitric and water


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## golddie

> PET containers are dissolved by nitric acid,be careful.


So it looks like in the silver polishing batch there was plastic dissolved.
Maybe that is the reason why the outcome was so bad


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## golddie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_tie

These are the things I used in my reaction and they were white and they disappeared in the acid.
It is a good thing that I was trying a batch that had only 2 or 3 dollars of silver there because it spoiled the whole thing 

http://www.lyondellbasell.com/techlit/techlit/Tech%20Topics/General/PE%20Chemical%20Resistance.pdf
I did research and polyethylene is resistant to nitric acid 
Than what is the material for the cable tie


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## qst42know

Nylon. Nylon becomes a sticky mess in acids.


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## golddie

> Nylon. Nylon becomes a sticky mess in acids.


I still have this mess and the amount is very little but I would be interested to know how a mess like this can be cleaned up so that the solution is free from this dirt


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## golddie

I had a few batches that I was working on so what I did was mix all 3 into 1 
I mixed nitric with HCl so if there was gold it got dissolved and went into the solution.
I have my solution A ready so I will do some testing tomorrow.
But I was happy about the results of what I got from all that dirt 
It was 18.5 grams of silver and I rolled it on a mill to flatten it to test the metal
It is good enough to reuse in jewelery 
The picture I took didn't come out good so you wont be able to see the details
The small one is casting from another time ,I put it there to compare but its hard to see the quality 


I melted these with acetylene
Can melt gold and silver with acetylene 
Thanks to Harold because I have had the Hoke book for a long time and I never was able to understand some of the things in there
http://img20.imageshack.us/i/dscf0053ln.jpg/


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> Nylon. Nylon becomes a sticky mess in acids.
> 
> 
> 
> I still have this mess and the amount is very little but I would be interested to know how a mess like this can be cleaned up so that the solution is free from this dirt
Click to expand...

Incineration will cure that problem, but, be aware, burning plastics yields a huge amount of toxic black smoke. 

Harold


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## golddie

Hi Harold
You have a special talent for taking complicated situations and simplifying them.
Thanks very much


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## golddie

I processed one of the batches from polishing dirt and it had very little gold. 
This was the first time I cemented gold and I have sulfur dioxide gas but I don't have the coupling for the tank so I bought some metabisulfite de potassium because they didn't have SMB.

I used way too much metabisulfite de potassium. the amount of gold the cemented was less than a gram and I added 7or 8 grams of the metabisulfite de potassium.

I did a quick boil in HCL and the color of the solution became greenish yellow(If my memory is correct) and I did this 5 times and still the color was the same. 
I thought the color of the hcl should have been white but I am not sure about that. I think thats what Hoke say to do,boil in HCL or does she say rinse in hcl

Tomorrow I will melt the powder


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## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I processed one of the batches from polishing dirt and it had very little gold.
> This was the first time I cemented gold and I have sulfur dioxide gas but I don't have the coupling for the tank so I bought some metabisulfite de potassium because they didn't have SMB.
> 
> I used way too much metabisulfite de potassium. the amount of gold the cemented was less than a gram and I added 7or 8 grams of the metabisulfite de potassium.
> 
> I did a quick boil in HCL and the color of the solution became greenish yellow(If my memory is correct) and I did this 5 times and still the color was the same.
> I thought the color of the hcl should have been white but I am not sure about that. I think thats what Hoke say to do,boil in HCL or does she say rinse in hcl
> 
> Tomorrow I will melt the powder



Did you test your solutions with stannous to make sure there were no PM's in your solutions?


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## golddie

Hi Barren
The stannous test showed a dark color and it looked like gold and I refined this thing and all I got was a small amount of gold.
All this took me about 1 day and it was worth about 10 dollars 
From the economics side it wasnt worth the effort but I did do this to learn as well
The thing is if there is a yellowish color could that be platinum or something like that and what do you do in that case. 
Harold was saying stock pot
Should I throw this refined gold into a the stock pot.
or 
and redissolve some of it in AR and do more stannous test
Thanks


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## Harold_V

golddie said:


> Harold was saying stock pot
> Should I throw this refined gold into a the stock pot.
> or
> and redissolve some of it in AR and do more stannous test
> Thanks


If you have recovered values (gold in this case) returning it to the stock pot isn't a good idea. 

Where the stock pot shines is when you have traces of values (platinum group in particular) that aren't worth the effort to recover, and likely wouldn't recover anyway, due to these metals precipitating poorly from dilute solutions. In such a case, you pour the solution(s) to the stock pot, where the values are cemented and, ultimately, concentrated. That way you can make your time pay by processing values in substantial volumes to justify the time involved, plus you benefit by having a higher degree of concentration. You will come to understand that the platinum metals behave much better when you deal with concentrated solutions. 

Harold


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## oldzkule

patnor1011 said:


> they probably failed on one common thing among most of todays refiners. greed. :twisted:


I tried downloading from your link and just got a bunch of code. I have done some of the stupidest things when it comes to recovering, everything from doing it indoors, no protective equipment, getting processes mixed up anddoing wrong steps, wrong chemicals, have ordered 
'guides" that claim to be simplified. Ive got lab grade nitric, lab grade hydrochloric, ferrous sulfate, urea, borax, filters, computer servers, sulferic ,copper wire, aluminum, and on and on and on. Ive wasted so much time and energy for nothing. I do love how there are 500 people out there with 500 different ways and claim same end result. eventually ill figure it out but until then i guess ill keep dissolving gold so it will never be recovered again. Only thing I have learned so far is what fuming nitric acid is, that nitric wont dissolve gold and ar is supposed to be able to dissolve all metals. also i dont think nitric will dissolve stainless steel. i have learned not to do it indoors, and have learned i can waste as much or more platinum than gold.


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## patnor1011

oldzkule said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> they probably failed on one common thing among most of todays refiners. greed. :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried downloading from your link and just got a bunch of code. I have done some of the stupidest things when it comes to recovering, everything from doing it indoors, no protective equipment, getting processes mixed up anddoing wrong steps, wrong chemicals, have ordered
> 'guides" that claim to be simplified. Ive got lab grade nitric, lab grade hydrochloric, ferrous sulfate, urea, borax, filters, computer servers, sulferic ,copper wire, aluminum, and on and on and on. Ive wasted so much time and energy for nothing. I do love how there are 500 people out there with 500 different ways and claim same end result. eventually ill figure it out but until then i guess ill keep dissolving gold so it will never be recovered again. Only thing I have learned so far is what fuming nitric acid is, that nitric wont dissolve gold and ar is supposed to be able to dissolve all metals. also i dont think nitric will dissolve stainless steel. i have learned not to do it indoors, and have learned i can waste as much or more platinum than gold.
Click to expand...


I dont know what do you mean. If you mean documents in my signature then I can assure you they work perfectly. They are just placed outside forum on hotfile servers. Choose slow download and you can get those books. Other two links go directly to two topics on forum.


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## butcher

Stop wasting your gold.
It pains me to think we try to help people learn to recover and refine gold, and how many people may be trying this and dissolving gold and loosing the little gold we have access to, (what miners have dug out of the ground and worked so hard for thousands of years), all of these people dissolving and loosing gold, (because they think they can do it), well this may make less gold on the market so the price may rise, also I am afraid if someone has not spent the time to learn this properly the are probably not acting in a safe manner, and possibly harming their health and others, also would they understand how to treat the waste they generated, help us all.

Link below copied and pasted from patnor1011, signature line. Reading C.M. Hoke's book until you do understand it.

http://hotfile.com/dl/14623543/1cf7898/Refining_Precious_Metal_Wastes_C11.M_Hoke.pdf.htm

Study the forum for tips on safety and dealing with waste (before even thinking of using chemicals on metals)!


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## necromancer

glorycloud said:


> They are probably referring to this PDF written by Harold I believe.



i have found this file, thanks

The selected attachment does not exist anymore

i would love to read this


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## gizzmo

i am interested in doing some gold silver palad recovery. where do i get info on how to build the equipment needed? i was thinking of starting out using the chemical reverse plating style. is there a dvd or book available for beginners ? thanks! gizzmo


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## FrugalRefiner

gizzmo,

Welcome to the forum!

Everything you need to know to recover and refine precious metals can be found here on the forum. 

The first rule is to be safe in everything you do. Before you jump into any of the processes you see discussed here, be sure you understand the potential hazards and do everything you can to minimize the risks. It takes a lot of study but it's incredibly rewarding!

I strongly encourage all new members to follow the Guided Tour created by LazerSteve. It will provide an introduction to the forum and numerous valuable links. Be sure to follow the link to his web site as he has many outstanding videos, a collection of great reference documents, and he sells a lot of the supplies needed to get started including detailed instructional DVDs.

Second, download C.M. Hoke's book Refining Precious Metal Wastes. You'll see this book mentioned repeatedly here on the forum for good reason. It is probably the best book ever written for the beginner who wants to learn refining. It is written in layman's terms and will provide a solid foundation that will help you understand everything you read here on the forum.

Finally, and I can't stess this enough, read EVERYTHING in the Safety section of the forum. No amount of precious metal is worth jeopardizing your health or the health of those around you.

Once you understand the basics you can start to try some small scale experiments. If there's something you don't understand or you get stuck, there will be someone here to help you.

Best of luck,
Dave


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## goldsilverpro

necromancer said:


> glorycloud said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are probably referring to this PDF written by Harold I believe.
> View attachment 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have found this file, thanks
> 
> The selected attachment does not exist anymore
> 
> i would love to read this
Click to expand...

I found this in my 6.27 GB of files. It is excellent, by the way.


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