# is there anyone who can help?



## alper (Jun 7, 2020)

After adding urea to aqua regia, when I added SMB for the buckling process, such white things came out. what is this?


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## butcher (Jun 7, 2020)

alper,
We can help you get started learning to do the things you are trying to do properly, but it will take a lot of study on your part to learn, it will also not be easy as there is much you need to learn to become successful.

You should begin learning about safety, as up till now all you have is a deadly toxic waste you do not know how to dispose of without harming your neighbors.

I suggest you start with learning to deal with waste, during this process you can recover any values from the toxic mess you have now, and learn several important principles of how the chemistry works while doing so.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 7, 2020)

So many questions....

I suspect you’ve tried to process magnetic material with AR and now you have all sorts of salts reacting. The solution is way too filthy to know for sure but something appears to be falling out of solution.

It doesn’t look like gold but that doesn’t really mean much. Vice versa,you may have traces of iron in your solution that will passivate in nitric/AR and will be a problem. This will look like gold in solution.

It may be lead. Doubtful but maybe. 

If you had decent material it’s almost certainly silver chloride and that is very much beyond the scope of a first timer; I can confidently say that from experience. I lost nearly 2000£ of gold in my early days (I have earned that back ten fold) due to not parting silver properly.

Everyone will tell you read Hoke; I endorse that but Hoke is no use unless you are either knowledgeable in the practise or you have a good system of study. Hoke in my opinion isn’t great for money chasers as they’ll ignore most of the key minute details they perceive as unimportant. These are THE most important bits and Hokes grace and consistent manner of writing does not emphasise that. Hence why you’ll see the jedis keep saying “go back to hoke”. You can read her book a thousand times and still learn something the 1001st time.

I think Butchers comments are key; if you understand the chemistry side, you’ll be ahead of people like me the minute you start. I myself have a very methodical brain and it does not receive chemistry equations or processes in the way butchers or some other jedis do. If someone, however,breaks it down differently, I process. Nitric for example... see it as a villain with and oxygen gun, firing bullets at an army of metals and evaporating them. That’s how my brain understands oxidisation. I have to picture images rather than numbers and letters in rows and columns.

However, I have taught myself to produce very pure gold even with that in mind. With all humility, I can produce as good as people that have been doing it for 30 years, with string academic backgrounds in chemistry. 

I adopted the 10,000 hour rule 18 months ago and I am 1800 hours from that. I advise you buy a pure ounce bar, and once you are able to reclaim and refine that to 100% you move to Harder material. E waste is a waste of time for beginners and I wouldn’t even try jewellery as you’ll end up like this every time.

Your mess in my opinion, is beyond the scope of recovery for a beginner. Do not do this for money. Unless you are in the upper percentage of intellectual ability you’ll hurt yourself.


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## alper (Jun 8, 2020)

160/5000
What is my brother seen in my photo? so does gold collapse if there is one? I just want to know what is that white thing.


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## Lino1406 (Jun 8, 2020)

Urea nitrate. Skim or add water to dissolve


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## Jmk88 (Jun 8, 2020)

It may be one thing it may be lots. 

I think looking at even the bottle you are using, you’re some way away from understanding. I’m surprised the bottle didn’t melt if you went straight to AR. 

Like Lino said it may be nitrates in which you’ve now created an explosive solution that you’re unlikely to understand the dangers of and what may make it go off.

You would have had to use a lot of urea though. In my opinion. To have that amount.

I suspect, I may be wrong, Lino is more knowledgable than myself, but I think it’s metal salts.

What did you put in in the first place? What material?


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## alper (Jun 8, 2020)

the subject you are right is yes it is true that i throw a little urea.
How do you know that I do not understand the subject you are wrong? glass bottle aqua reqiada melt? don't worry buddy don't worry.


I burned scrap pc parts and scrap mobile phones in the fire and put them.




lino; How much water do I need to add and is it mandatory that the water I will add is pure water or will I add tap water?
I didn't understand what he meant when I said lubricate?


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## Jmk88 (Jun 8, 2020)

You said in your first post you added urea. 

I would recommend throwing it all away and forgetting about the practical side of refining for a long long time.

Possibly forever.

Just my thoughts.


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## alper (Jun 8, 2020)

Isn't urea discarded before aqua regiaya SMB?


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## Lino1406 (Jun 8, 2020)

Right SMB can also drop CuCl which is soluble in HCl


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## butcher (Jun 8, 2020)

alper,

Burning electronic scrap is very dangerous, with most materials there are better ways to process the material and do it more safely and efficiently.

Ash from burnt electronic materials is normally very alkaline, carbonates and borates, which will consume a lot of your acids making salts out of the acids, the other metals also make salts of metals in acid, most chlorides and nitrates are soluble, with metals like silver and lead and mercury being some of the exceptions.

Urea will not remove nitric acid and is basically useless when you use too much nitric acid in your aqua regia.
Urea will remove the byproducts of nitric acid from solution, such as nitrous acid HNO2 or NO2 gas that has decomposed into the solution, but any free nitric acid in solution when mixed with urea forms into a salt of urea nitrate, which if acidified will reform nitric acid again.

Too much SMB can also precipitate copper salts as well as itself oversaturating the solution and leaving insoluble salts.

The white salts are possibly several water-soluble salts.
Urea Nitrate (water-soluble), (will reform nitric acid with acids), (explosive if dried or heat strongly). 
Silver chloride (insoluble in acids or water).
Lead chloride (very low water solubility in cold water, (much more soluble in boiling hot water).

Adding water should dilute and dissolve many of the salts, hot water can be used to separate lead and silver salts...

I would treat the solution for waste, adding a bar of copper metal to recover your gold and any valuable metals as black powders decanting liquid solution from the insoluble powders.
Save the valuable powders until you learn more.

Add iron to the remaining solution to recover copper from the solution as a reddish powder, decanting or carefully pouring off the liquid from the insoluble powders.

Raise the pH of the solution to around a pH of about 10 with either sodium hydroxide or a lime solution, letting the insoluble powders settle and decanting solution.

Bring the pH back to neutral (by adding acid), so more insoluble powders will settle from solution, decanting solution of saltwater.

Dry the waste (I roast it to red hot to make the hydroxides form oxides which are less water-soluble before disposal)...


Study dealing with waste, you will recover your gold or any values during the process and learn many principles that will help you understand recovery and refining better...

Forget using urea, study to learn better methods.

Study to learn safer and better or easier methods to recover gold from your material.

Basically, you need to begin with safety and studying better and safer methods.
Learn better methods to process your scrap and do it more safely.


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## alper (Jun 8, 2020)

How can I remove gold from burnt electronic parts ashes easiest and fastest?


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## Martijn (Jun 8, 2020)

Easiest and fastest: bring tour material to someone who knows how to clean up a mess. Ask him if he's kind enough to clean up your mess. And handle your waste. Don't bother asking for gold in return. The work to retrieve any values will be greater than any money to be earned. 
I know it's harsh, but life's hard. 
Another way: set your gold fever aside along with the mess. And listen to butcher and study.
Patience and gold fever are very poor friends.
Good luck.
Martijn.


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## Martijn (Jun 8, 2020)

And please stop burning electronics and polluting our planet.


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## Shark (Jun 8, 2020)

alper said:


> How can I remove gold from burnt electronic parts ashes easiest and fastest?



With proper incineration and careful panning a large part can be recovered. 

Most boards are better processed in hydrochloric acid and a small, one time dose of 3% hydrogen peroxide. While slow it is a lot safer and easier to use for recovering the gold. A search of the forum for AP will give you a lot of information on the process.


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## butcher (Jun 9, 2020)

alper,
Spending your time studying the forum will get you closer to getting gold and learning to do it safely, the time studying will put you closer than trying anything you think you know about at this point or anything you could try.

Gold is not easy to get, it takes a good education and understanding, which can take some time to learn, it is also something that is very hard to get started learning, but once you do begin and get past the beginning it becomes easier. It is from the education that you gain the treasure maps to where and how you get gold.

Start your study with dealing with the waste you will find it in the safety section, you can recover the values from the mess you have now, and learn to properly deal with the toxic solutions.

The safety section will be very helpful as you learn these skills, referring to it often will put you closer to your goals.

In the general chat, you will find the general reaction list and the guide to the forum.

Hokes Book does not include electronic scrap, although all of the books will apply to this type of scrap as well as the general principles are the same.

learning these skills is not a simple or fast process, it takes us years to get good at even a portion of these skills, it is something we can study and learn and improve upon for the rest of our lives and still not learn it all.

Gold fever is your enemy, the more desperate you are to get gold the harder it will be for you to get, the fever blinds you and makes you impatient, in your gold rush you pass the gold by, you waste time trying to get gold without doing the hard work of study to learn how to do it safely and properly, which leads you down a rabbit's hole trying to learn how to get out of a mess doing dangerous things you know nothing about.

Forget getting the gold, focus on learning how. And as you learn more you will know where the gold hides and how to get and refine it.

Educating yourself is the treasure map everyone is looking for, it is here for you to learn and study on the forum, have fun there is something exciting for you in everything you study and learn to do or understand, you will find it is not only the treasure map but also a major part of the treasure you are seeking now (not only the gold but the knowledge of it)...


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## alper (Jun 12, 2020)

su ekledim az birşeyde SMB ekledim bu renkte böyle birşey çıktı.

ne olduğu hakkında fikri olan varmı?


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 12, 2020)

A Google translation gave me this:

"I added water, I added a little bit of SMB, something like this came out. anybody have any idea what happened?"

For myself, all I really see is a green solution. Maybe some white sediment on the bottom? 

What was the result of stannous testing before and after adding the SMB?

Dave


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## butcher (Jun 12, 2020)

Please translate your discussions into English.

You diluted the salts by adding water.

SMB may not be able to overcome the nitric or nitrates in solution.

To proceed you need to properly de-NOx the solution and remove nitrate salts in solution.

The yellow ring at the top edge of the glass and the solution is usually an indication of gold in solution, testing will verify if it is gold in solution.

At this point the solution is very dilute and would be very time consuming to use the evaporation technique to remove oxidizers, adding gold and heat would work fine, the simple method would be to use sulfamic acid (sold as a grout cleaner for ceramic tiles) to de-NOx the solution, using your testing solutions stannous chloride and ferrous sulfate crystals, you can determine when the solution will reduce the gold if precipitation is attempted with SMB or some other reducing agent.
The stannous my not show positive for gold if still in solution, or it may redissolve after formed and the purple color disappear if only a little nitric in solution.
The copperas can itself de-NOx the solution in a test, so it can show gold when stannous could not (could not overcome the oxidizer to reduce the gold to metal colloids), the copperas does not reduce the gold to metal colloids like the stannous chloride will, copperas or ferrous sulfate reduces the gold to brown metal powder, that shows up as brown ring of gold in the test...


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## alper (Jun 12, 2020)

What is NOx ?


When the sulfamic acid is added, the gold will settle?


do I add sulfamic acid and iron sulfate together?


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## butcher (Jun 13, 2020)

NOx is a combination of seven different gases and compounds composed of nitrogen and oxygen, basically the decomposition gases and products of nitric acid, or burning fossil fuels...

The most common of these gases we are concerned with are nitric oxide gas NO (g) a colorless gas that is not very water-soluble, but in air or oxygen converts to the more soluble NO2 gas which is fairly soluble and a pollution product which can lead to acid rains, Nitrous oxide NO2 (g) the deadly red cloud of gases you see when concentrated nitric acid attacks metals, NO2when combined with water or moisture will convert back into being nitric acid, the other most common of these seven gases we may see is the Nitrous oxide gas N2O also known as laughing gas or sleeping gases...

Several of these gases are a danger to us and can in cases pollute our environment, and with water or moisture from the air can convert back into nitric acid and can become harmful in our air, our waters, and our in lungs...

Health effects of nitrogen oxides gases can include:

Death
Genetic mutations
Harm to a developing fetus
Decreased female fertility
Spasms
Swelling of the throat
Rapid pulse 
Dilated heart


Urea is basically useless to remove nitric acid or nitrate salts from the aqua regia, although it can remove NO2 or some of the NOx gases from the solution.

Sulfamic acid works better than urea it will remove the free nitric acid and nitrate salts (where urea will not) sulfamic acid also like urea eliminates the NOx gases from the solution.

Sulfamic acid will work when you use too much nitric acid where urea will not, sulfamic acid will convert nitrate salts to acid, decompose the free nitric acid, and De-NOx the solution.

sulfamic converts to sulfuric acid in solution, which can be a benefit with nitric and nitrate decomposition and removal with heating, and also help to convert lead salts to an insoluble lead sulfate salts for easier removal.

You would use sulfamic acid instead of urea, to do a better job.

Urea will work if you do not use too much nitric acid in your aqua regia, urea can de-NOx the solution, remove gases, but it cannot convert the nitrate salts back into nitric acid or it cannot eliminate, remove or decompose the free nitric acid in solution... So Urea is only useful if you do not use too much nitric acid to begin with.

Copperas, also called FeSO4, ferrous sulfate, Iron sulfate, green vitriol, is a reducing agent which is easy to make from iron and 10% diluted sulfuric acid.
FeSO4 or copperas is selective for gold, it is used like the other reducing agents for selectively precipitating gold from an ionic solution of gold chloride AuCl3, used just like sodium metabisulfite SMB or other reducing agents are used.

Copperas crystals can be used in a spot plate or white plastic spoon to test for gold in solution (brown ring of precipitated gold is a positive result in the test, copperas will not reduce copper from a solution like SMB can if overused, and copperas can help to de-NOx the solution where SMB cannot, it also is better where PGM metal may be in solution...


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## alper (Jul 10, 2020)

I added iron sulfate as you said, and the color darkened like this. do you think this is normal? Would it be a problem to add iron sulfate later? or should I add it instantly?


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## acpeacemaker (Jul 10, 2020)

Is that coffee pot in a skillet on a household gas stove?


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## alper (Jul 10, 2020)

Yes.





it was like this when I tried to filter


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## jimdoc (Jul 10, 2020)

Whatever gold is in any of that isn't worth the health problems you and your family will be risking by doing that in your kitchen. Seriously you should just stop.


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## acpeacemaker (Jul 10, 2020)

On top of the witches brew being concocted here there are many things wrong with this. 

For all we know it could be a couple boards or kilos that were burned and put in the pot. (It's very possible there is no gold there and you're just playing with chemical reactions and the salts created.) 

It's hard not to make assumptions from a few pics, a few words, and very little backstory. 
But since you answered yes to being a household gas stove I'm assuming this is in your house.... 

The fumes created are dangerous. Not just from the chemical reactions but you are possibly putting whatever metals including lead and trash toxins into your atmosphere. You also are putting whatever metal objects in the house including the stove and sink at risk of corrosion. Not to mention any living being around is subjected to all of it. On top of the long term health risks fumes can be fatal and death is a hard thing to come back from. I just saw someone doing something simalar a couple weeks ago, except they were using sulfuric acid. They died in two days.

Store whatever you have in a bucket. If any values are in it, it's not going anywhere. Study.

your friend,
Andrew


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## alper (Jul 11, 2020)

How do you know that the bird-brains are my family home? I do not want to speak badly to those who told me not to do, please do not force me. either give information about the photo, try to help, or talk stupidly stupid and don't tell you things like don't do it as if you had a little kid. I request this from you.


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## Platdigger (Jul 11, 2020)

This is exactly how guys "used to" get banned from this forum....really fast.


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## jarlowski1 (Jul 11, 2020)

Alper its pretty simple do as others have asked you to do. Do this activity outside or we won't help you. We will not assist you in hurting yourself or others. Chemicals are dangerous to handle and if you do this inside the fumes will build up to toxic levels real fast. You can buy a portable electric kitchen burner, they are cheap. Do this outside away from everyone. Also wear gloves all the time when doing this. We are not trying to be mean. You will lose a lot of gold if you don't slow down and study. There are certain processes for each type of material and you need to study here on the forum which process is the right one to use with each type of scrap. Please listen to us.


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## alper (Jul 11, 2020)

are you sick Do you think my family lives where I use chemicals? or do you think me without a mask? friends, you don't have to worry about me because I think of myself, my family and my environment. Do not I know that it is inconvenient to deal with this kind of work where there are people? I think you are the people who know nothing but making excuses and find such cheap excuses to explain the photo. guys come to yourself


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## jarlowski1 (Jul 11, 2020)

Calm down. How can you expect us to know what you are doing and where you are doing it. The pictures you have taken look like they are on your kitchen stove. Also how can you expect us to know exactly what your problem is. The parts that you burned can have so many different metals in them not to mention 1 company will use one type of metal and a different company will use something else. We were not there and only know what you can tell us but even then you might leave out critical information. So all we can do is speculate on what you have. The best thing you can do is put the stuff away in a safe container and study on this forum. There is a search function that you can find on the menu tab. Use that and search about the material you processed.


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## alper (Jul 15, 2020)

When I add iron sulfate, something like this collapses. What do you think this is? It's a little darkening when I drip tin chloride, isn't that proof of gold?


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## butcher (Jul 15, 2020)

alper,

All I can see is the toxic salts of metals like iron or copper, and a mess to deal with.

I do not know what you are trying to do, but it is not helping you to learn these skills.
it is a waste of your time to try and get gold at this point, you do not have enough understanding of the basic principles, you do not even have a basic understanding of the dangers involved...

Stop making this mess put your chemicals away safely, and learn how to safely deal with the toxic mess you have made now, during that process you will be able to recover values.

You are not learning anything, by doing things you do not understand, first work on learning the basics, of how to safely work, and how to dispose of the toxic waste.

After studying the basics of safety, then we can discuss learning more, and do some getting acquainted experiments, before beginning a study on recovery, refining, testing, and so on with some simple materials to learn with.

Put away the chemicals until you gain some more knowledge and learn more.

You asked for help, but to get it you must listen and follow the advice to study, otherwise you will not learn and we both just waste our time.


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## alper (Jul 17, 2020)

how can I learn? where can i learn Do you have any resources etc. you can recommend me about this? if possible with Turkish translation or subtitles because I don't understand English very much


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## butcher (Jul 18, 2020)

Start with the safety section begin your study with dealing with waste.

As I stated several times, you can recover any values from the toxic solution using copper in that process, then iron to recover any copper, before raising the pH to around pH 10 to 11 with lime to remove many of the toxic metals, then just enough acid to bring the pH back to around neutral pH7 to remove more of the toxic metals...

The process is simple once you understand it if you can read the answers to the questions you ask you can gain the answers to many questions by studying what is written there...

Be sure to gain an understanding of how to work safely, this is an ongoing study, as we learn more and work with more of the chemistry we must also learn more of the dangers of what we are doing or with the materials, we are working with...

As I stated before if you want help then begin your study there, put up the chemicals away in a safe place until you gain an understanding of the process.

Anything you do not understand about the process of dealing with waste just asks, most of the members will be glad to help you understand it...

When you are ready to begin the process of treating your waste solution with chemicals, we can help you with any questions you have. It may be helpful if you explain everything in detail the better we understand what you have done or are doing the better advice you will get...

Once you gain an understanding of the dangers involved and gain an understanding of how to work safely with the materials, we can then begin working on getting an understanding of the metals and how they react chemically (getting acquainted experiments Hokes Book, from there we can begin studying and working on simple processes then work up to more complicated materials like ore, or electronic scrap...

As I told you before these skills take years to learn, and you can spend the rest of your life and never learn it all and keep learning more that is one thing that makes this field of work so interesting.

The more we study and gain an understanding the more we can improve our skills.

Practicing chemistry without any understanding is just a good way to make dangerous messes, and lose our gold.

Studying to gain an understanding before trying anything is a good way to learn more and get more gold.


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## jarlowski1 (Jul 18, 2020)

I don't know if the translator he is using is translating all of our words properly. It seems he keeps asking the same questions. We keep telling him to study on the forum and then I even told him where to find the search function, but he is asking for us to give him the information and preferably in Turkish. To me it seems he doesn't understand all of what we are saying to him. I may be wrong though.


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## galenrog (Jul 18, 2020)

I think a combination of a poor translator and wanting an easy way out of the mess he made. I see this frequently on other forums I visit. 

Alper, the best advice I can give you is to put everything away. Now.

Next, download a copy of “Refining Precious Metal Wastes”, by C M Hoke. While about 70 years old, this publication is still the best primer for recovery and refining of precious metals. Read it. Read it again.


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## Goldcat (Jul 27, 2020)

Looks like there may be lead or silver present. AR wont dissolve either. Try filtering the AR and test with stannous chloride. The urea probably wont help if the acid is highly concentrated.


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