# automated ap tank



## JHS (Nov 8, 2013)

Here is the basic idea.
using one of those home depo plastic garage sinks,with a basket to hold material
and a plastic strainer in sink drain.
plum it with pvc pipe
add 2 plastic shut off valves
one above filter and one below filter
plastic in line filter case with cartridge replaced with fiberglass.
and a chemical pump.
This would circulate the ap continously and the fiberglass should filter the gold foils as they become loose.
it also should add enough oxygen as the return pipe will be above the ap leavel.
no metal involved
Please pick this idea apart.tell me what you think should be added or modified.
I would like to build it once and have all the bugs worked out
thanks john


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## bigjohn (Nov 8, 2013)

I too have kicked this idea around. The first problem I found was the filter would plug up and you would risk burning your pump up. I was thinking of using a large filter in the bottom of the bath tank. This would give me some time before it needed attention.


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## JHS (Nov 8, 2013)

Bigjohn,
I was thinking I would use one of the big cartridge filters like TSC sells.
I would cut the screen and paper off and wrap it with insulation and hold 
it in place with zip ties.since they are clear you would be able to see when they were full of gold.  
thanks john


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## niteliteone (Nov 8, 2013)

How much liquid flow would you use :?: 
Might want to make a wick proof lid to control splash and evaporation. Definitely place a ball valve on either side of the filter so they can be shut off while servicing the filter, so you don't loose all the liquid from the tank.


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## JHS (Nov 8, 2013)

niteliteone,
already planed the 2 shut off valves,1 before the filter 1 after.
I am going to changed the idea from a sink to a cut in half chemical tank.
I will cut a 65 gallon tank around the middle and again near the end for a lid.
The pump I have has a ten gpm flow.so that would equal 60 gph.that should be fast enough to keep plenty
of oxygen in the ap.
thanks john
P.S.Iam also going to add a holding tank for clean out.


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## butcher (Nov 8, 2013)

metals are heavy, copper salts and gold powders are fairly light but settle to the bottom over time.

The liquid could be drawn off the tank and circulated without picking up the copper salts or gold foils,it take some time for the gold foils and copper powders to accumulate so you would not necessarily have to constantly filter them A good stir and a drain valve most of the screened copper salts and gold foils can be drained into a settling pot, settled, then solution returned to tank, and copper powders dissolved and solution returned to tank, leaving gold foils.

Another option is a trap after the main tank and before a lower tank where the pump pulls liquid from, where powders and foils can settle, and not be pulled through the pump as much.
filters could clog easy a trap will let liquid flow through, maybe with a small portion of floaters but the majority of the heavier gold and powders will settle in a well designed trap.

Actually I like the ole tried and true bucket in a bucket, the inside bucket with holes in the bottom, simple and works like a charm.

You could use this idea and just pump the liquid with small pump from above the point the powders settle into the outer bucket, turning off the pump when you give the material a good stir to break loose gold foils and get them to settle back into the lower bucket .


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## kkmonte (Nov 8, 2013)

I always had an idea to do something like this picture below. The idea would be that most of the flakes would settle in compartment "A" in the holding tank ( might have to lower the outlet on the main tank or just raise the tank a little more so gravity can do its thing). Maybe put some kind of a container in there to catch them or something (or just let them all settle, decant most of the solution using the pump to a 50 gal drum, and scoop/suck up foils.


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## Pantherlikher (Nov 9, 2013)

Seems way over engineering to do something with less hands on.
Do you AP that much material continueously? Wish I found half that much all the time.

Bottom of your sink, put as big a container holding area as you can that has a bottom valve. This will catch all settled PMs.
Why have another "holding tank in the system? 

Sink will work but should be covered with an air pipe. Small bottom tank to catch PMs. Pipe high on bottom tank with filter to protect pump from wear.
That's it. You don't need more HCL or anything. As you need, refill when sink gets low.

B.S.


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## Anonymous (Nov 9, 2013)

Great idea, and the idea that kkmonte put forward with a settling tank is exactly what martyn from this forum was also discussing with me last week. The same theory as a septic tank - that way your filters and pump will be a lot clearer of "bits."

I think it's a great thing for us to share ideas and work on. There's absolutely no reason why you couldn't also plumb in an air pump to constantly aerate the solution. 

Yes panther I do have enough product to warrant something like this mate. I think quite a few members do, so any form of automation for the earlier parts of AP recovery would be a godsend mate.

I've got a few other bolt ons for this in my head if people want to discuss and add to this?

Jon


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## JHS (Nov 9, 2013)

jon,
,I am getting too old to keep lifting buckets.
The idea is to just deal with a filter.I was going to set the draw pipe up a couple of inches in 
the tank,so it would catch the foils as they floated.Then as needed clean the salts from the bottom of the tank.
My thinking is this would produce cleaner foils.I can not accomplish this without pumping from the tank.
john


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## butcher (Nov 9, 2013)

In the bottom of the foil tank settling tank (trap) can be funnel shaped with a large plastic ball valve for removing foils.


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## JHS (Nov 9, 2013)

kkmonte ,
I can't help but think that the fine particles would just bypass the holding tank without a filter of some sort.
Also if the holding tank was not sealed you could have a flow regulating problem.
over flow of the holding tank or pump running dry.if the holding tank was sealed,how would you do a clean out?
would you need to design and build a specialty tank?
john


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## chlaurite (Nov 9, 2013)

In addition to shutoffs, keep in mind that you will eventually want to drain this.

Make sure you have a drain valve (with a short nipple on it to avoid splashing) at the lowest point in the plumbing, and mount the rest of your pipes at a slight angle so they will naturally flow toward that point. Also, make sure you have no undrainable below-level loops. Similarly, make sure you have no above-level spots where gasses can build up, which could potentially deprime the pump (not to mention the more obvious risks associated with the gasses produced by AP, namely, caustic and explosive).

I think, though, I have to agree with those who call this design overly complicated, at least for the stated purpose. As far as I can tell, you only really want to accomplish two things - Circulation and aeration. You can accomplish both of those goals with either a simple submersible pump or a powerhead-style pump, with the outlet above fluid level. In fact, considering that last point, I wonder if you couldn't use a cheap saltwater* aquarium powerhead, with the stock filtration media simply removed. Those kind of pumps can deal with small particles, and your larger chunks (fingers / boards / chips / pins / random debris) should remain safely at the bottom of the container.


* I say saltwater because freshwater powerheads usually use an exposed round block of ferrite as the rotor body, while saltwater pumps have that encapsulated in a corrosion-resistant housing.


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## Anonymous (Nov 9, 2013)

John, Martyn and I were brainstorming about how to automate some of the recovery process as this was the bit that takes the longest time and as you rightly pointed out involves the heavy lifting. We do use the standard "holed bucket" and outer bucket system that appears to be the norm, but as the batches of fingers got bigger then naturally the question of "how we make this simpler and more effective" reared its head.

A night at the pub with a pad and a pen and plenty of beer presented us with quite a lot of ideas (and a bad head the next morning) but the main issue of course was what materials to use and what was regularly available to make this from. Then we hit on the ultimate cheat. You can make every single component barring the the pump mechanism for this whole thing to pin point accuracy using current technology. No matter how intricate or detailed.

We're genuinely working on a design as we speak and I'm pretty sure that if we got it right there are plenty of people who would want one. So we'll have fun with it. We can do it so why not give it a go. That's my take on it. 8)

Edited for typo


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## Pantherlikher (Nov 9, 2013)

Easy piesy...
The shallow but long plastic tank, Acrylic possibly to build to spec, or rubber maid tub slightly tilted toward bulk head at bottom of 1 corner. Large barrel, 15gal. under to allow settling with drain valve on botton to empty setiment.
Fitting near top of barrel with changeable filter down to pump.

Long rubber maid type tank with loose fitting lid allows you to put what ever you want inside. Now make card holders that will hold cards or memmory vertically. The rack sits inside off the bottom which you have far end from drain as start. As you fill another rack, slide 1st toward drain and put 2nd in start possition. This way, you know which was in longest. And you can hang 1 rack of stuff or fill the tank with alot and still have solution running through everything.

You should always be able to stop pump and drain settling tank as needed to remove setiment. Change filter only when flow slows. 
I would not see a need to drain everything and clean / maintenence much if ever.

The only heavy bucket to move would hopefully only be filled with removed gold and some solution.

If you feel the need, add air down pump outlet tube. More time for O2 to dissolve without interfearing with pump.

B.S.


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## Anonymous (Nov 9, 2013)

Thanks that's really good. I like that!


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## kkmonte (Nov 10, 2013)

JHS said:


> kkmonte ,
> I can't help but think that the fine particles would just bypass the holding tank without a filter of some sort.
> Also if the holding tank was not sealed you could have a flow regulating problem.
> over flow of the holding tank or pump running dry.if the holding tank was sealed,how would you do a clean out?
> ...



Hi JHS, What i was envisioning was that the "Spiggot" from the main tank to the holding tank would be like maybe 1.5" PVC pipe with an elbow into a hole cut into the top of the holding tank. The holding tank would be a rubber made tote of some sort with a cover, so you could perform clean-outs, kind of like cleaning out a cell. I was thinking that as long as you had a larger diameter (than the pump flow) outlet pipe from the main tank to the holding tank, and filled the holding tank to the invert of the pipe, then whatever the pump could pump in, it would flow out at the same rate (like a waterfall). 

As Butcher said, the gold flakes should settle as they are heavy, so I was thinking/hoping that as they went over the waterfall into the holding tank, the particles would more or less stay in compartment A. Maybe do a few swirls before finding a place to hang out at the bottom and call home. Then have the baffle as high as possible and try to only have liquid going over the baffle into compartment B.

My initial thought was have the pump suction pipe/hose come into the holding tank with an elbow and a standpipe going down towards the bottom. At first I was thinking the flakes might be floating but as Butcher had pointed out they would want to settle, then I was thinking maybe a good length would be in the middle of the liquid level.


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## JHS (Nov 10, 2013)

kkmonte ,
I understand your design,but I was looking for a design that eleminated
lifting buckets of acid.That was the reason for a filter.this seens only to replace buckets with totes.

Am I missing something?
john


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## kkmonte (Nov 10, 2013)

I wasn't going to be doing any lifting. My thought was to build a few small platforms to hold the totes, and then when its time to get my gold, I would pump the AP into a plastic 55 gal drum (placed above the first tote). Assuming the plan worked, I would lower the liquid as low as I could and then just scoop out my foils from the foil compartment. Then once I got them all out, I would just open up a gate valve slowly from the bottom of the 55 gal drum and gravity feed the system until full again.

I do like the idea of the filter, however I was thinking it would require too much babysitting/checking up on it. Like someone else mentioned, if the filter gets plugged solid, you burn out your pump (or depending on your filter, you could do something worse and have a blow out somewhere before the filter). Also having all of your gold foils jammed into some type of filter might not too easy to get out. Of course you could try just dissolving your gold right from the filter, but then it will be absorbing up your AuCl3 not to mention not being able to fully wash your foils prior to dissolving.

I've read a lot of posts on these forums that go something like "Well I put something on the hot plate on super high temp, just for a few minutes, then my dog got out, and by the time I got back to it 12 hours later, I burned down my shed". Ok well not that bad, but almost in a few scenarios! So I was trying to come up with a design that made it so that when life "got in the way", the only thing that would be happening to my system would be adding more oxygen and using a little bit of extra electricity for the pump.

I never built any of this, it was always in the conceptual phase. 

Ken


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## JHS (Nov 11, 2013)

Ken,
I do better understand your concept now.
It seems sound ,and I may try buildinng a ,so
to speak,salesman's sample,just to see how it would work.
thanks john


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## gold4mike (Nov 11, 2013)

JHS,

I've been running a similar thought through my head for some time now and was thinking of simply using a ball valve right below the sink, leaving it open, then a foot of pipe and another ball valve at the bottom of that pipe.

The foils would mostly settle in the pipe. You can close the top valve, open the bottom valve and have your foils concentrated in a small amount of AP.


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## Anonymous (Nov 11, 2013)

To be honest mike if the catch area was funneled then the gold would settle in there along with any other solids so theoretically would a second ball valve be needed? 

I think though that sometimes a metal item such as a copper loop would be present which could stop the ball valve operating so maybe a second safety valve would be a good idea.


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## gold4mike (Nov 11, 2013)

True - I suppose you could open and close it quickly, tapping off mostly foils.


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## Anonymous (Nov 11, 2013)

Actually Mike I'm going to incorporate your second valve in the design we're working on. The more I think about it, the better sense it makes.


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## JHS (Nov 11, 2013)

gold4mike said:


> JHS,
> 
> I've been running a similar thought through my head for some time now and was thinking of simply using a ball valve right below the sink, leaving it open, then a foot of pipe and another ball valve at the bottom of that pipe.
> 
> The foils would mostly settle in the pipe. You can close the top valve, open the bottom valve and have your foils concentrated in a small amount of AP.



This sounds like KISS.
A whole lot easier,not much to lift,nothing much to break down.
I like KISS.For those who don't know KISS,it means, keep it simple stupid.
sometimes,I do try to over think and over complicate things.
this is the best i have heard so far.
thanks mike.


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## gold4mike (Nov 11, 2013)

Rather than a sink I'll probably use a 55 gallon drum, slightly tilted toward the threaded bung. Cut it so the cut is level and suspend two or three "colanderized" buckets full of fingers in it.

The opening would be large enough to allow boards to be suspended. I have a lot of backplane and wire wrap pin boards I visualize running that way.


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## Pantherlikher (Nov 12, 2013)

A 55 gal drum you only need to pump air into. But it's alot of AP and you'd have to drain alot of fluid to get alot of flakes. Forcing you to raise the tank so you can put a bucket under the drain. I'd guess 2-4 5gal buckets to get most of the material out. 

Just a pipe under the sink is not much slow moving fluid for settling.
The overflow tank works great. Same as an aquarium filtration works. Everything settles before the overflow but it's a pain to clean out. Syphon would suck alot up but takes alot of fluid and bucket has to be lower then tank.

Remember, height becomes an issue when adding containers on top of each other.

KISS...comical...
Shallow tub for boards with removeable lid.
Big enough to stack boards with spacers between.
A lower tank with slow fluid flow to allow settling. Still high enough to put recovery bucket below everything.
Pipe to pump below surface but not close to bottom.
Filter before pump does not have to filter every little particle. Just stop anything that would cause damage/wear to pump.
Air introduced some how.
System has to work extended periods unattended.

Anything else needed for complete system but still simple?

B.S.


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## niteliteone (Nov 12, 2013)

Most small salt water power heads (pumps) have a nipple to connect a 1/8" tube to draw air into the impeller creating tiny air bubbles in the out stream.


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## chlaurite (Nov 12, 2013)

niteliteone said:


> Most small salt water power heads (pumps) have a nipple to connect a 1/8" tube to draw air into the impeller creating tiny air bubbles in the out stream.


Dangit man, we have a Rube Goldberg machine to build here, and you go tossing out practical suggestions like _that_? Why use a simple bucket/tank and a single cheap OEM powerhead, when we can play with multiple levels of tanks, valves, assorted filtration media, plumbing, and then later get all the fun of diagnosing which bend has the air-bubble trapped that deprimed and burned out three inline pumps in a row? :lol:

Good idea, actually - I hadn't even considered that possibility - I had thought to just put the outlet decently above the water for aeration; your observation would let us have the outlet even with the surface to minimize the actual water agitation to the lowest level necessary, while still getting as much oxygen into solution as we could want. Kudos!


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## niteliteone (Nov 13, 2013)

:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## JHS (Nov 14, 2013)

That red safety light just came on.
I wanted to set this up in my shop,but it
is going to create some gas.it would require a pretty big hood 
to run an open system.
I am going back to my original idea,but with a 35 gallon chemical tank.
I will vent the tank outside and run a bubbler off my compressor.
The compressor is an oil type so I will add a dryer and filter to it.
the bubbler will carry the gas outside.since I have no neighbors there will be no danger
to anyone.the rest of the system will be much the same as original.
john


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## gold4mike (Nov 14, 2013)

Yeah the HCl fumes will rust everything in the building if you try it indoors without a good, reliable hood. If the blower fails overnight you'll see the result in no time.


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## Pantherlikher (Nov 15, 2013)

....Sigh...

Ok. The upper shallow tank for any and all boards is the only open container which, yes, requires a tightly fitting lid with an air hose hole and a vent tube to the outside air.
The only time the system is open is when you load and unload material. Much like my small 1gal. bucket has a straw pointing to the window with a fan in the other window. The only time I get a smell of Chlorine gas, faint smell, is when I add fresh HCL which if the intake fan is running and shed door is fully closed, all fumes exit straight through window.

:::safetly tip::: Make sure air flow is right before pouring any acid. Shed door left slightly open causes excess Chlorine fumes to linger which will over come you in 1 breath . Make dam sure you can hold your breath long enough to find the exit for fresh air!!!!

B.S.
...Overthinking always leads to too many mistakes, moving parts, and complications...


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## JHS (Dec 11, 2014)

Hay Guys,
I was reading through the diy posts and found my post.I hate it when I find posts that were started and never completed,so I thought I would complete this one.
Here is what I did.
I came across a water tank from an old pop up camper I junked.I tested it with a gallon of AP for a week.It seemed not to have any problens holding the acid.the tank had a 1 1/4 fill pipe that was threaded for a cap.I installed two ball valves and a length of pvc pipe.There were two vent fitings near the top of the tank which became my air fitings.Then turned it over and cut the now top out to within a inch of the sides.I then added the plexi glass top with a 3/4 pvc vent through the wall.even if the nebulizer pump fails the fumes are still vented outside.
I leave the upper valve open so the motion the air creates can cause the foils to collect in the pipe,and it gets most of them.The ones left behind are for next time.the wire in the picture are from wire wrap boards I ran.The foils are in a 5 gallon bucket.
enjoy john


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## JHS (Dec 11, 2014)

The trash can it for safety in case something fails,and the last picture shows draining the tank through the air hose.
john


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## gold4mike (Dec 11, 2014)

I like it!

I still haven't made the time to put anything together, been so busy I only spent three days working in the lab this whole year. 

Your design closely fits the one in my head and I have a spot away from neighbors I can use to do this outside so I'll probably go with the 55-gallon drum laying on its side, using all the other aspects of your working setup.

Thank you for adding the pictures. It makes visualizing it simple.

I'd like to run about 20 pounds of fingers per batch.

Can't wait for Spring!


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 11, 2014)

I did something very similar in a 120 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump.

Make sure you use a chemical pump resistant to copper II chloride.

I used a gravity filter, made of plexi that originally was intended for salt water reef tanks. I have many of them laying around. They usually look something like this:







Basically, the way the pre-works is by gravity. The solution falling down the backside to the sump tank, pulls solution out of the big tank you have your material in.

I use polypropylene sponge filters, also borrowed tech from salt water tank enthusiasts. The nice thing about using polypropylene is that you can put your entire sponge in an AR solution, and the sponge/filter will not dissolve, but the gold foil will.

So I use two sponge filters, one in the pre-filter and one in the sump. I adjust the tank so that the water breaks up as it flows down the tube. I do this to break the electrical connection through the flow of the solution into the sump. I plate the copper out in the sump using a method very similar to the same one on this website/page.

http://www.docbrown.info/page01/ExIndChem/electrochemistry06.htm

Plating the copper as it's being dissolved makes this system works more effectively, and with far less hassle.

From the chemical pump up to the 120 tank I use PCP pipe, and divided the pipes so that they distribute the solution going back into the tank, in several places. Heating, and then flattening the pipes on the end ensure that the pressure is increased as it exits the pipe in the tank solution, agitating it. I designed this system so the exit points can be moved slightly, to ensure that they can be directed against the material I put into the tank for processing. This helps to agitate the foils from the material, thus increasing the efficiency, and decreasing somewhat, the time required to de-foil the material.

I am using processing boards this way, so I use a shower curtain rod, with plastic shower curtain loops and polypropylene string. Two rods running the length of the tank. I simply drill two holes in the boards, and clip them to the poly string. As the boards de-foil I move them from one end of the tank to the other, pulling out the boards on one end, and entering them into solution at the other. In this way I ensure that the boards are subjected to different nozzles ( the pipe ends I slightly flattened ) and thus different angles and directions, helping with the de-foiling process.

At any given time, when there is enough gold foil captured by a poly filter, I remove and replace the filter with a clean one and never stop the process. Having a poly filter in the pre-filter, and sump, ensures I capture most of the gold foils easily, using a large cell sponge in the pre-filter, and finer ones in the sump. Also, if any gold foil does flow over the sponges due to not removing them soon enough and being too loaded with gold foil, the gold foils then re-circulate into the tank with no harm or loss.

Using this method the only real requirement is adding a small amount of HCl when the reaction discontinues removing the gold foil. Small additions of DI water are sometimes required due to evaporation. Also, another benefit to the pre-filter is that it adds a lot of oxygen to the solution as it is agitated. I purposefully created my pre-filter so that it has a slight angle as the water falls out of the tank into the filter because this also adds oxygen. I also use another piece of equipment intended for fish tanks, an air pump with tubes entering the main tank that have air stones on the ends. It does not matter where in the tank you place the stones as the solution is constantly moving through the tank.

When the sponges are removed for processing, I simply enter them into a reaction vessel, add AR and dissolve the foils directly into solution. No more filtering is required prior to this step.

You can easily come by this equipment used, I am fortunate in that I already have large salt water aquariums, and have the equipment on hand. But I have seen equipment like this sell for very little at good will type stores, Craigslist, garage sales, etc. The only real expense is the chemical pump, but well worth the investment. Many times, people who re-market equipment have these types of pumps and sell them for reasonable prices, or you might also find them on ebay. If you do use a used pump, ensure it is either refurbished or that you have it refurbished prior to using the pump, even then make sure you flush it well prior to use as some people do not flush them after using them. If you do not flush them you may be adding something in the pump to your copper II chloride solution that could have an adverse reaction.

I made a simple fume extraction hood out of scrap polypropylene plastic I purchased at TAP Plastics, connected to an exit tube and squirrel fan that exits outside the building. If you do not use some type of ventilation I would strongly suggest operating equipment like this in an open space, not enclosed. It does produce some small amounts of hydrogen gas, and other gases if you add the electrolytic process to your sump.

All in all, if you are smart about it, and take your time obtaining used equipment you can build a system that is similar very inexpensively.

I am not posting pictures of my own system, as I am trying to get the entire process patented. But I would be more than happy to answer any questions, and take suggestions on how to improve my own system.

Scott


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## MarcoP (Dec 12, 2014)

NobleMetalWorks, that's a really elaborated idea, impressive.
As I would like to try out at least once a copper chloride cell, based on the distance between anode and cathode what amps and current are you using.


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## JHS (Sep 24, 2015)

Just thought I would update this post.

What I did since I built that smaller tank.Built an A frame of steel added a 220v winch 5000 lb rated. Had one,bought a second 65 gallon poly tank.made metal frames for each with 4 lift on each frame .To the tank I installed 5 liter water filters purchased at local farm store.added a hose.
When the process is complete I fill the second tank with material, lift the tank,set the hose in the second tank.go to sleep,and forget it.So far it takes about 24 hours to filter the 60 gallons of AP. Then I process the filter and all in HCL/CL.the filter is good for a second batch,but that is it.
Forgot to mention.I add about 15 psi pressure to the tank to help speed up filtering,
john
P.S. Both my cameras are broken,when I get a new one I will post pictures.
Now on to a HHS generator


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