# market tanking, metals remaining a little stable



## markscomp (Sep 14, 2022)

As always i like to ask opinions. Why are the metal markets not climbing at all? is the future demand that weak for metals?
Mark


----------



## orvi (Sep 14, 2022)

Not to fall on the edge of conspiracy about markets and stuff - probably yes. Certainly in Europe, there are difficult times on the horizon.
I also expected the PMs to rise significantly, but they didn´t even level the inflation, which is whooping 14% now here... So to say, PMs aren´t considered as value-holders anymore for markets.

At least I expected gold to rise, but obviously big guys think differently  other metals such as silver or palladium, which are industrially used from great part, that could be rationalized as you say it.


----------



## Ohiogoldfever (Sep 14, 2022)

As long as people allow the big guys to push us around they will keep them low. Not a good thing for the prices to shoot up before they own it all. 

Done worry, you’ll own nothing and be happy.


----------



## Hartbar (Sep 14, 2022)

So, in my humble opinion. It’s all about US$ strength. The US$ index is about 110 right now, that’s strong. It’s based mostly on Euro weakness. 
Last time US$ index was 110, was in 2002, gold was $300.
Index went down to 75 ish by 2010, gold hit a high of $2000...
Imagine where it could go if that same index corrects again, when it starts at the $1700 point...


----------



## snoman701 (Sep 14, 2022)

The market dropped 3% yesterday. Given the amount of paper gold in comparison to physical, I'm surprised gold only really dropped ~1%.


----------



## PeterM (Sep 14, 2022)

London Silver Inventories Continue to Plummet as Metal Exits LBMA Vaults


Silver is leaving the LBMA vaults in London at an astounding rate, with silver inventories now at an all time low since records began.




www.bullionstar.com


----------



## goldshark (Sep 15, 2022)

I have noticed a cycle of metals remaining particularly low, and remaining low for a while, then dramatically shooting up. I believe this cycle occurs for the simple reason that if there is a lot of cash sitting around, and savvy people buying metals with that excess cash, when inflation hits, the people with the metals investment will become instantly uber wealthy. To keep the average metals investor stay within the middle class, the economy will get so difficult that the metals investor will be forced to sell their metals first to maintain their comfy lifestyle. What do you get for your Gold and Silver? Dollars. Now the government can print more money, since they have to hold I believe a 30% holding in Gold, to be able to print more money, at a new rate adjusted for inflation.I have seen this cycle happen about every 15 years. Remember the old days when you had to sell to the government in exchange for dollars. That was the Gold standard. When we went off the Gold standard, the government outlawed owning Gold, and they actually would confiscate it, if it wasn't in a certain form. Today, I believe confiscating Gold , by the government, would probably start a revolution. So to avoid a revolution, they just manipulate the monetary system where the economy gets tough, people are forced to sell their liquid assets ( PM's ) first, government prints more money, repeat same thing in about 15 years. Keeps our dollar strong, and economy going. You just need to figure out their system. It keeps the socio/economic balance in check. With the exception of the big families who control and make the rules for the others.
On another note, this is analogous to Bitcoin. Invest in it, you can't lose. It will keep growing until one day, it will just disappear. And who is accountable? Who knows, the inventor is still anonymous. People's money just disappears, but the dollar will remain strong. It reminds me of the SouthPark episode when I think Cartman, starts a bank account, the banker states he has $100 in his account, and, it's gone!
This is how the US economy works. The government takes your stuff, but it is good for all the people.


----------



## nickvc (Sep 15, 2022)

The one thing I see is that many national central banks are or have been buying metals and if anybody is in the know it’s them , so why is the price not rising dramatically, well I suppose if you can print paper and swap it for gold and keep the price suppressed at the same time it’s a good ponzi scheme , what happens when and if all those holding bits of paper saying they own 100 ounces of gold ask for physical metal, now that could get messy very very fast.


----------



## snoman701 (Sep 15, 2022)

How low will it go?

Support is at 1550. 

I could turn it around right now and make it jump $50, all I'd have to do is go sell. So instead, I expect it to go to 1550.


----------



## Swissgoldrefiner (Sep 15, 2022)

goldshark said:


> It reminds me of the SouthPark episode when I think Cartman


The only wrong thing in your message...it was Stan... XD


----------



## manorman (Sep 16, 2022)

Hartbar said:


> So, in my humble opinion. It’s all about US$ strength. The US$ index is about 110 right now, that’s strong. It’s based mostly on Euro weakness.
> Last time US$ index was 110, was in 2002, gold was $300.
> Index went down to 75 ish by 2010, gold hit a high of $2000...
> Imagine where it could go if that same index corrects again, when it starts at the $1700 point...


You are correct the recent strength in the US dollar and some reason fear is responsible for the weakness in gold and silver.


----------



## kurtak (Sep 16, 2022)

Not sure if this link will work unless you are subscribed to The Epoch Times 









Central Bankers Are Secretly Hoarding Millions of Pounds of Gold; Bankers Caught Manipulating Price | Facts Matter


The Federal Reserve is the central bank in the United States, and there is an equivalent to the ...




www.theepochtimes.com


----------



## Hartbar (Sep 16, 2022)

The Fed will 'inflate away' U.S. federal debt; 'real inflation' is in the double-digits - Matthew Piepenburg






www.kitco.com


----------



## Ohiogoldfever (Sep 16, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Not sure if this link will work unless you are subscribed to The Epoch Times
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s a good one. Although I’ve been listening to bullion dealers talk about the prices exploding any time! For about 4 years now. 

Roman is a great source for news. Highly recommend the Epoch Times.


----------



## snoman701 (Sep 16, 2022)

Ohiogoldfever said:


> That’s a good one. Although I’ve been listening to bullion dealers talk about the prices exploding any time! For about 4 years now.
> 
> Roman is a great source for news. Highly recommend the Epoch Times.


So you've only been talking to bullion dealers for four years?


----------



## kurtak (Sep 17, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> So you've only been talking to bullion dealers for four years?


Thats not what I hear Ohiogoldfever saying - he doesn't say anything about *talking* to bullion dealers

Rather - for about the last 4 years - he (Ohiogoldfever) said --- he has been *listening* to billion dealers 

I assume Ohiogoldfever is talking about the (many) bullion dealer adds we see on TV everyday !!!

Well - I have been *listening* - to all those same *bullion dealers* as well (& it's been more then 4 years) 

And what have they been saying ------------

Buy it (gold & silver) *NOW* - because it is going to *EXPLODE at anytime* now (that is said in the context of - "in the *VERY* near future") --- as in within few months &/or end of *THIS* year (for 4 years or MORE now)

And what is/has been their selling point *projections* -----

Buy it NOW - because anytime NOW the price of -------

Gold is going to EXPLODE to $2,500 - $3,000

Silver is going to EXPLODE to $120 - $200

Like Ohiogoldfever - I am still waiting for that EXPLOSION - that I have been *listening to *for 4 or more years now

Kurt


----------



## Flying Farmer (Sep 17, 2022)

I’m old enough to have traded gold when market was about 265/oz. Generally, I notice the advertising is prevalent when market is up. I don’t see these big vendors of bullion pushing to sell you their gold/silver when the market is down. I don’t think I could outsmart them. For what it’s worth.

V/R
Timothy Psaledakis


----------



## manorman (Sep 17, 2022)

manorman said:


> You are correct the recent strength in the US dollar and some reason fear is responsible for the weakness in gold and silver.


Recession


----------



## manorman (Sep 17, 2022)

Flying Farmer said:


> I’m old enough to have traded gold when market was about 265/oz. Generally, I notice the advertising is prevalent when market is up. I don’t see these big vendors of bullion pushing to sell you their gold/silver when the market is down. I don’t think I could outsmart them. For what it’s worth.
> 
> V/R
> Timothy Psaledakis


And 4.00 silver


----------



## kurtak (Sep 17, 2022)

Hartbar said:


> The Fed will 'inflate away' U.S. federal debt; 'real inflation' is in the double-digits - Matthew Piepenburg
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now lets talk real world

Two years ago (Trump admin.) I was making $19/hour & was able to put a few dollars in my savings *every* month ($100 - $150 per month)

About a year ago (Biden admin.) I was given a $3 raise to $22/hour which is (about) a 16% raise

The *narrative* is that we are seeing only (about) an 8% inflation rate

However - even with a 16% increase in my hourly wage - not only am I NOT able to put a few dollars in my savings every month - some months - I have to actually take a few dollars OUT of my savings

AND - that is not the end of the story - because as a matter of FACT 2 years ago I was able to buy MORE with my $19/hour paycheck ---

Back then - I was able to buy a ribeye steak at least once a week (sometimes twice a week) I bought 2 new guns - *thousands* of rounds of ammo - hunting/fishing/camping gear & spent most every weekend driving the back roads of the national forest I live in

Now - on a $22/hour paycheck - I am lucky to afford a ribeye steak once a month - can't afford to buy a new gun - more ammo &/or hunting/fishing/camping gear & can only afford to do those back road drives once or twice a month

To top that off (currently) I am watching the value of my gold & silver stash go down - rather then up

That is the FACTS concern the real world of my paycheck to paycheck life - as seen through the eyes of my paycheck to paycheck bank account

In THAT real world accounting - not only is the rate of inflation greater then the 8% they make claim to - but in FACT it is greater then the 16% of my recent pay raise

Thankfully - I do happen to have one other source of income (which is kept separate from my paycheck to paycheck accounting)

I happen to own some mineral rights in North Dakota - so I get paid a royalty on every barrel of oil/gas pumped out of the ground (or like I tell my friends - while you are paying more at the pump - I get paid more at the pump) 

My ND mineral holdings are actually very small - so when I factor those in with my paycheck to paycheck it is keeping me *just a bit* ahead of current inflation - which I have just shown (at least in my real world) to be greater the 16%

Bottom line - if I had to live entirely on my paycheck to paycheck income (with a 16% increase in that check) I would be living on a *slow but sure* sinking ship

So (IMO) the words - under the numbers bottom line - *is one big fat LIE* --- the biggest LIE (words) under the numbers bottom line is the promise to --- "Build Back Better" ?!?!?!?!

So I MUST ask - "Build Back Better" for who ??? --- Certainly NOT for the common working man !!! 

Kurt


----------



## kurtak (Sep 17, 2022)

Flying Farmer said:


> I’m old enough to have traded gold when market was about 265/oz.



I remember those days (around1978) gold mining in Northern California


----------



## snoman701 (Sep 17, 2022)

Yeah, I'm not following you in to a political discussion and frankly you should know better. 

My comment was sarcastic. Bullion dealers have been talking up silver/gold for as long as I've been buying from them. Everyone has been waiting for the fiat house of cards to collapse, doesn't matter who the administration in charge is at any given time. When I first started buying, my dealer at the time wouldn't even take credit cards, as they were fake money. 

The expectation that anyone can predict where the markets are going to go is foolish.


----------



## Hartbar (Sep 17, 2022)

Very very interesting times. If you study 25 years of metals prices, 25 years of US$ index and 25 years of fed funds rate, you should see a pattern.
I believe debt is the key. Federal debt of 32 trillion, untold consumer debt and endless entitlements, it’s a royal mess. US can’t finance its debt at more than 5%. 
Inflation is here to stay. They decided to inflate out of debt, not default.


----------



## kurtak (Sep 17, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> Yeah, I'm not following you in to a political discussion *and frankly you should know better.*


Per the bold print - first off - in discussing politics - in general (CRT, gender BS, abortion, voter fraud, J6ers, MAGA etc. etc. etc.) I agree - the gold refining forum is not the place for that kind of political discussion - there are other places for that kind of discussion & I am actually quite active on some such forums

However - as refiners/investors of PMs - PMs are a part of our economic reality/wellbeing - therefore - economics plays a direct role in our PM interests - AND - like it - or not - *that part* of politics plays a direct role on our economics which in turn plays a direct role in the PM commodities we discuss on this forum everyday

Therefore - IMO - not only should this part (political) that concerns economics be part of the discission - but in fact needs to be part of the discussion

Why ? --- because the politics that influence the economy has a direct influence on the value of my PMs which in turn has a direct influence on how much that value will buy for me --- it makes a difference in my deciding to buy - sell - or just hold



snoman701 said:


> doesn't matter who the administration in charge is at any given time



Thats just not true - EVERY administration has an influence on the economy & therefore an influence on the value of our PMs (what the value of those PMs will - or wont buy)

And I can prove my point ----

Under Trump - both my wage & my gold value was lower - BUT - I in fact could buy more with that lower wage & gold value - this has nothing to do with whether I like or hate Trump - it is just an economic FACT under the Trump admin.

Currently - under Biden - both my wage is higher & my gold value is higher - BUT - in FACT nether of those things will buy what I could buy when Trump was in office - & again it has nothing to do with whether I like or hate Biden - it is just an economic FACT under the Biden admin.

Two different political/economic views/policies - both having a different but direct impact on my economic wellbeing

So - IMO - *all other politics aside* - *this part* of politics has a direct impact on my vested interest in PMs

So I must ask - why should *this part* of politics not be discussed here on the forum - when in FACT it has a direct tie to the PMs we refine &/or invest in ??????

I am just being real here - when with a higher wage - my dollars is buying less & at the same time the value of my gold & silver is buying less --- & it is happening under the current Biden Admin. economic/political policies

I am sorry but if this is what is meant by "Build Back Better" --- then I can't wait to see how much better it's going to get (sarcasm intended) --- it's headed for going broke & deeper in debt

And I should like it & be told to keep my mouth shut ?!?!?!

Edit to add; - in other words - the discussion isn't actually about politics - it's about economics - politics just happen to *a part* of those economics - the discussion isn't complete/whole unless all the parts are in the discussion

Kurt


----------



## Yggdrasil (Sep 17, 2022)

But it should be possible to not overplay the role of politics, in other words, discuss economics of PMs and point to the impact of politics without pushing the equilibrium all the way to the political side?
True???


----------



## 4metals (Sep 17, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Currently - under Biden - both my wage is higher & my gold value is higher - BUT - in FACT nether of those things will buy what I could buy when Trump was in office - & again it has nothing to do with whether I like or hate Biden - it is just an economic FACT under the Biden admin.


But Kurt, is Biden so powerful and influential that his policies caused prices of gasoline and food and so many other commodities to skyrocket all over the world. I think not. I think maybe a little conflict in Ukraine, coming after a world shut down by covid, has a lot to do with it. And that isn't (IMHO) Bidens doing. 



kurtak said:


> So I must ask - why should *this part* of politics not be discussed here on the forum - when in FACT it has a direct tie to the PMs we refine &/or invest in ??????


Maybe it doesn't, providing we can keep it civilized and have a conversation based on documented facts, with minimal emotion. As it does pertain to precious metals and may influence our own precious metal investment strategies. I will openly admit my buying and selling of my precious metals has always been more luck than strategy. 

So unless I get a knock on the door and another moderator wants to beat me over the head with my laptop, I think *this thread, *as Kurt would say "as per the bold print" would be a place for a discussion, among friends, all bound by a common interest as long as it remains civil. Otherwise any of the moderators always has the power of deletion. As Harold used to say, this forum isn't a Democracy, it's a privilege.


----------



## snoman701 (Sep 17, 2022)

Ok, so it's game.

So when we talk inflation, we have to talk about what led to inflation. 

There was 5 Trillion dollars spent by the federal government to keep the economy afloat. That's 1/6 of the federal debt spent in a one year period. If you kept working during Covid you got what? $4,000 in stimulus? But your portion of the federal debt went up by about $40,000 for that $4,000 stimulus to even out the stimulus given to unemployment, corporate handouts, medical relief, etc etc etc. 

The Fed pumped money into the equities market through bond buying. The GDP in 2020 went down for obvious reasons, then went up in 2021 by 10%, however the S&P 500 went from 2237 during covid and then peaked at 4793. Very little of that growth was actually related to sales. Apple went from a $50 stock (corrected for the split) to now, ~$150. However, while sales went up, the price to sales ratio went up as well. So it's not that Apple is making that much more money, it's value is just inflated more. The same can be said for a majority of the equities market. 

Biden is an idiot, but he didn't spend any of that. He inherited the debt. If you want to blame a president for inflation, blame the guy sitting in the office when the checks were written

So does it suck that your $18 an hour doesn't go as far? Hell yes it does. Is it Biden's fault? How? What exactly was he supposed to do, coming in to office, following the largest government spending in history? 

I guess that when you are an investor in precious metals, you need to realize that it shouldn't be the be all end all of your portfolio. Investing in precious metals (or any commodity) is defined as a speculative investment. 

So of course the bullion dealers are going to be bullish on PM's and bearish on fiat, do you go to a car dealership to get sold a horse and buggy? Same as your gun shop sells you rhetorical fear and the need to protect yourself.


----------



## Hartbar (Sep 17, 2022)

They hit the inflation switch with covid funds. Throw 3 trillion dollars at a limited amount of any goods, and it will lead to inflation. That’s not politics, it’s what happened. More like 9 trillion globally of course.
32,000,000,000,000.
It was 4.5 trillion 20 years ago


----------



## Ohiogoldfever (Sep 17, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Thats not what I hear Ohiogoldfever saying - he doesn't say anything about *talking* to bullion dealers
> 
> Rather - for about the last 4 years - he (Ohiogoldfever) said --- he has been *listening* to billion dealers
> 
> ...



Thanks Kurt!

Perfectly said. Yes, this is Exactly what I was getting at.


----------



## 4metals (Sep 17, 2022)

I have been investing with my own gold for some time now. Gold I've accumulated over a lifetime of working with the shiny yellow metal. I was advised by a bean counter friend that sitting on precious metals is no way to grow it in value. I had a number of gold bars gathering dust in a safe deposit box at the time and he told me to pay attention to Kitco, read the news and watch the price fluctuations. So I tried it, I tracked it on a spreadsheet just marking when and how much I'd sell or buy but never doing it, just to learn for a year, then I started slowly doing it with metal. When gold was high and talk and economic indicators said it was overvalued, I sold. Then when it dropped to a point where those same indicators said it was at the bottom, I used the cash I got selling and bought the metal back. *Always physical metal.* You can open up an account with larger coin dealers who buy recognized metal bars for about $1 under and sell them for about $16 over. Even with their fees it works. 

I slowly realized that that shiny yellow metal likes to make $100+ swings in a short few months time and riding that swing, buying low and selling high has made me an average of 12% annually on the gold. And I slowly started to commit more gold to the process. Sitting in a vault doesn't grow the gold much if you never sell. And in my mind selling at a high point (which admittedly I have to guess about when that is) and re-buying at a low point (again where I guess it's at bottom) has worked for me. And I never nail it, I sell and it goes up even higher but it always goes at least $100 below what I sold for and I also rarely hit the bottom before I re-buy either. And I get all of my gold trading news off Kitco for free. * I'm sure those Kitco talking heads figure politics into it, so I don't have to*. And not having to add the stresses of American political values into my investment strategy is something I don't miss. 

So in my mind, as much as politics and national debt plays into metal pricing, I have to look out for the value of what I physically control, and not sit up at night sweating about things I cannot control. Not that I don't get worked up over politics, but I like to keep it on a level of informed discussion and I always exert my exceptionally small influence with my one vote. That's all I can do.


----------



## briang (Sep 17, 2022)

markscomp said:


> As always i like to ask opinions. Why are the metal markets not climbing at all? is the future demand that weak for metals?
> Mark


mostly because they are manipulated - like every market on the planet


----------



## 4metals (Sep 17, 2022)

briang said:


> mostly because they are manipulated


Even the manipulators of the gold market want to make profits from the manipulations. I essentially follow their lead.


----------



## orvi (Sep 18, 2022)

kurtak said:


> Per the bold print - first off - in discussing politics - in general (CRT, gender BS, abortion, voter fraud, J6ers, MAGA etc. etc. etc.) I agree - the gold refining forum is not the place for that kind of political discussion - there are other places for that kind of discussion & I am actually quite active on some such forums
> 
> However - as refiners/investors of PMs - PMs are a part of our economic reality/wellbeing - therefore - economics plays a direct role in our PM interests - AND - like it - or not - *that part* of politics plays a direct role on our economics which in turn plays a direct role in the PM commodities we discuss on this forum everyday
> 
> ...


I will say that is the way how modern US economy and finance evolved. If you can release more and more money in fraction of the time into limited real comodity market, you will slowly enter inflation spiral and no one ever believed that these national debts will ever be paid.
Some handful of the elite folks once decided that we can print very questionably value-backed dollars to fulfill our intentions - and with US as geopolitical superpower, it works to this day, with some disturbances. But it work for them well...

I was also watching PM market for a while, trying to take advantage of it. I once had childish perception that PM will be rising in value with rising doubts about inflated money value. But if same people control also PM market, I does not see these "doomsday" scenarios, where gold miraculously shoot to 3000+USD/ozt and we will start carrying gold and silver bars to the grocery stores. Many people feel that bubble cannot be inflated infinitely, but I am afraid it could be (if you can enforce your will with power). At least in coming years, I do not expect anything major to be happening with the system how money works now. And as I posses some small quantity of "investment" metals, I would be very happy for this steep climb of their value. But I stay rational and count every possibility.

2008 hit more US than EU, now this switched sides... We have claimed 15% inflation here (maybe little lower now), and man, it can be felt really heavily. Real number feels like 20+%. 
To put this into context, I as researcher and PhD. student earn 970euros a month. In our country this is somewhat higher than average salary. Apart of why and how our salaries rise, bitter truth is my salary risen only 25euros/month from last year. Gasoline is now 1,70eur/L, diesel 1,90/L, middle-classed restaurant dinner with beer is around 15-20 euros, loaf of bread around 1,2 euros, liter of milk ca 1euro. 1-room flat in the city, 30m2 = 110 000euros. And that rib-eye in middle class restaurant around 25-30euros.Was it better in terms value for money few years ago ? Certainly yes. With this I can relate to your opinion.

We have arranged wedding in upcoming months, you want to somewhat think about future, secure your life as you are slowly turning 30, think about family, kids... But you can try as hard as you possibly can, you struggle to find any possibility to secure your life.
For taking a mortgage here, you need to have 20% of the value upfront in your savings here. Which represents around 30-40k, if you want some livable flat. I am physically unable to save this ammount of money. With 9 years of college education based work.

I do refining also as side-paying hobby, but I do not see the results I would like to. You cannot save that earned money as it become worthless in very short time, no standard financial product can even level that inflation, and precious metals are no more certainty in terms of stable value. Long story short, enough crying


----------



## orvi (Sep 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> Even the manipulators of the gold market want to make profits from the manipulations. I essentially follow their lead.


I should also more elaborate on this. Unless I won´t have supercomputer located 100 m on the cable from Wall Street, no possibility to compete with fast-traders


----------



## 4metals (Sep 18, 2022)

orvi said:


> I should also more elaborate on this. Unless I won´t have supercomputer located 100 m on the cable from Wall Street, no possibility to compete with fast-traders


What I do certainly isn’t fast trading, which is why I miss the highs and lows. The price has to move about $18 for me to break even. ( probably because I only work in physical metal) I will not re-buy without a $100 swing so no supercomputer high stress fast trading going on here. Maybe 3 buy sell cycles a year.


----------



## briang (Sep 18, 2022)

goldshark said:


> I have noticed a cycle of metals remaining particularly low, and remaining low for a while, then dramatically shooting up. I believe this cycle occurs for the simple reason that if there is a lot of cash sitting around, and savvy people buying metals with that excess cash, when inflation hits, the people with the metals investment will become instantly uber wealthy. To keep the average metals investor stay within the middle class, the economy will get so difficult that the metals investor will be forced to sell their metals first to maintain their comfy lifestyle. What do you get for your Gold and Silver? Dollars. Now the government can print more money, since they have to hold I believe a 30% holding in Gold, to be able to print more money, at a new rate adjusted for inflation.I have seen this cycle happen about every 15 years. Remember the old days when you had to sell to the government in exchange for dollars. That was the Gold standard. When we went off the Gold standard, the government outlawed owning Gold, and they actually would confiscate it, if it wasn't in a certain form. Today, I believe confiscating Gold , by the government, would probably start a revolution. So to avoid a revolution, they just manipulate the monetary system where the economy gets tough, people are forced to sell their liquid assets ( PM's ) first, government prints more money, repeat same thing in about 15 years. Keeps our dollar strong, and economy going. You just need to figure out their system. It keeps the socio/economic balance in check. With the exception of the big families who control and make the rules for the others.
> On another note, this is analogous to Bitcoin. Invest in it, you can't lose. It will keep growing until one day, it will just disappear. And who is accountable? Who knows, the inventor is still anonymous. People's money just disappears, but the dollar will remain strong. It reminds me of the SouthPark episode when I think Cartman, starts a bank account, the banker states he has $100 in his account, and, it's gone!
> This is how the US economy works. The government takes your stuff, but it is good for all the people.


no they do not have to hold gold. that would only apply if the currency had a gold backing - it doesnt. fiat currency is created out of thin air; it is based on nothing except debt. also the govt did ban gold ownership but that was in 1933. the gold standard was removed in 1971.


----------



## snoman701 (Sep 18, 2022)

4metals said:


> What I do certainly isn’t fast trading, which is why I miss the highs and lows. The price has to move about $18 for me to break even. ( probably because I only work in physical metal) I will not re-buy without a $100 swing so no supercomputer high stress fast trading going on here. Maybe 3 buy sell cycles a year.



The hardest part of what you do is understanding that even when it's "high", it could go higher, and when it's "low", it very well could go lower. I buy and sell GLD and SLV ETF's since they are essentially the same thing without having to take physical. (fact is, if we deteriorate to the point where I need physical, you don't want bars, you want simple jewelry, wedding bands and engagement rings...bars gets you followed home and murdered...wedding bands you are just some poor sucker, as long as you don't use the same buyer twice) 

Right now is where I get concerned on the buy, as support is 1685/75. Next good support is 1550. That's a big hit if you misjudge the buy.


----------



## galenrog (Sep 18, 2022)

Markets in both metals and currencies are manipulated. We can argue for decades about the particulars, but I think it is sufficient to say that anyone who buys or sells will try to get the best deal they can. Some is done openly and honestly. Some is not.

I think the best course of action is to get out of debt. Credit cards, car payments, home mortgages can all be useful to a point, but should be put in the rear view mirror as soon as possible. By putting debt behind, one can focus energy and effort into building wealth. 

My wife and I recently relocated to central Texas, less than an hour away from most of the grandchildren, and half a continent closer to the others. We have no mortgage, no car payments, and I have no credit cards. 

Debt free is a good thing. It allows us to focus on other things. Yes, there are things we would like to have, and things we would like to do. By putting away that which we used to put toward debt, all those things are achievable.

If most people and their governments would adopt the same attitude, there would be fewer problems. That includes market manipulation and inflation.

Time for more coffee.


----------



## kurtak (Sep 18, 2022)

VERY interesting reading this morning - enjoying the thoughts/opinions expressed

That said - I am in no shape to post much of anything today as a result of *self inflicted brain damage last night*

I am a member of the Whiskey Gulch Gang here where I live - we had a sort of an Octoberfest celebration last night

Here is a bit about the Whiskey Gulch Gang (copied from something I posted March 2019) -------

The other interesting thing in my life since moving here is that I have also joined a gang - yes thats right - I am now a gang member 

I joined The Whiskey Gulch Gang as a life member 

The Whiskey Gulch Gang is kind of like a "local" Lions Club or Elks Lodge kind of thing

The Gang was started as a community improvement group/club for the town of Canyon City (which though is a town of it's own is really part of John Day) & it is based on gold being discovered on Canyon Creek in 1862 which resulted in the town of Canyon City (2 miles up the creek from John Day)

We have two main events (& get involved in other small local events) --- one is "62 Days" which is a celebration of the discovery of gold in 1862 so we have a parade & then we (the members) get dressed up in 1862 period dress & stage a good guys bad guys (the bad guys being claim jumpers) shoot out with the bad guys being arrested & hung by the neck till dead - also do a swap meet & a band - its a 2 day event --- the other main event we put on is a demolition derby which fills the stands at the fair grounds for a day of smash & crash 

One of the small events we do is any time we have a home football game at the high school we take the Whiskey Gulch canon to the games & when the home team scores we shoot the canon off --- the canon gets shot off at other local events as well

Kurt


----------



## kurtak (Sep 18, 2022)

Dam - wanted to add a couple of videos of last nights event (about one minute each) but it keeps telling me they are to larger to attach


----------



## orvi (Sep 18, 2022)

galenrog said:


> Markets in both metals and currencies are manipulated. We can argue for decades about the particulars, but I think it is sufficient to say that anyone who buys or sells will try to get the best deal they can. Some is done openly and honestly. Some is not.
> 
> I think the best course of action is to get out of debt. Credit cards, car payments, home mortgages can all be useful to a point, but should be put in the rear view mirror as soon as possible. By putting debt behind, one can focus energy and effort into building wealth.
> 
> ...


Very nice thought and attitude. Less is sometimes more


----------

