# N2 + H2O question:: incinerator/ scrubber



## jonn (Dec 25, 2012)

When mixing N2 with H2O does it break up the H and O to produce hydrogen and oxygen? :roll:


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 25, 2012)

> When mixing N2 with H2O does it break up the H and O to produce hydrogen and oxygen?


N2 is nitrogen, an inert gas that makes up 78% of the air we breathe. Is N2 what you meant to say or did you mean HNO3, nitric acid? If you're going to use chemical symbols, make sure they are correct. If you're not sure, spell out the words. The difference between N2 and HNO3 is like night and day.

When you mix HNO3 with H2O, you end up with dilute HNO3. It doesn't decompose H2O.


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## jonn (Dec 25, 2012)

GSP, just the man I wanted to talk to. Thank you for your response. I meant N2. I have a machine that injects N2 into a stream of H2O. Why would it do that? This machines manufacturer claims that the H and O are mixed to cause combustion in a later chamber. The combustion is then cooled with LYE and clean H2O. The end product is said to be waste water with the proper PH ready and safe for disposal. If you'd like I can email you a link, PM me. Thanks again and Merry Christmas  Jonn


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 25, 2012)

jonn said:


> GSP, just the man I wanted to talk to. Thank you for your response. I meant N2. I have a machine that injects N2 into a stream of H2O. Why would it do that? This machines manufacturer claims that the H and O are mixed to cause combustion in a later chamber. The combustion is then cooled with LYE and clean H2O. The end product is said to be waste water with the proper PH ready and safe for disposal. If you'd like I can email you a link, PM me. Thanks again and Merry Christmas  Jonn


I don't think I am the person to talk to since this is all new to me. Do you have more info? A link on the machine would be good.


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## freechemist (Dec 25, 2012)

> When mixing N2 with H2O does it break up the H and O to produce hydrogen and oxygen?


Definitely not. Like GSP said, the air we are breathing is mainly N2. Therefor what you ask, happens all the time, everywhere, where surface water is in motion, without the smallest trace of water being split into it's elements. - Or did you ever hear of a californian beach-surfing-resort as a never ending source of elemental hydrogen and oxygen?


> I have a machine that injects N2 into a stream of H2O. Why would it do that? This machines manufacturer claims that the H and O are mixed to cause combustion in a later chamber. The combustion is then cooled with LYE and clean H2O. The end product is said to be waste water with the proper PH ready and safe for disposal.


The combustion product of H (elemental hydrogen) and O (elemental oxygen) is clean water, and there is no need for lye for it's safe disposal. The addition of lye would only deteriorate it's purity. - So, please, don't further misuse this forum, publishing nonsense, which easily can be regarded as spam.

Kind regards, freechemist


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## butcher (Dec 26, 2012)

Jonn,
Maybe you just have some of the facts mixed up in what it is stating.
Lets look at burning a fuel.


Air is about 78% nitrogen gas N2, and 21% oxygen O2, and minor parts of other gases.

Nitrogen in the air will not burn; but in high temperatures will react with oxygen to form NOx gases 
Hydrogen in the fuel does not burn, but will react with oxygen to form water
I was wrong here Hydrogen does burn to form water
2 H2(g) + O2(g) → 2 H2O

If a fuel and heat is involved oxygen will burn.

Methane gas CH4 a hydrocarbon fuel, the carbon in methane will burn, the hydrogen will burn.

For combustion we need fuel heat and oxygen, to complete the chemical reaction.

Combustion of methane in air, if enough air (oxygen) in complete combustion we have , carbon dioxide and water form:

CH4 + 2O2 --> CO2 + 2H2O

The carbon from the fuel and oxygen from the air form CO2 gas, the hydrogen from the fuel and oxygen from the air form water vapors (steam).

Nitrogen N2 does not burn most would just go up flue as a gas, 
But at high temperatures about 1550 deg. C, some of the nitrogen begins to form a pollutant of NOx gas. A combination of several oxidized nitrogen gases:

N2 + O2 --> 2NO
reaction of nitrogen gas with oxygen, at high temperature forming nitrous oxide gas.

N2 + 2O2 --> 2NO2 
reaction of nitrogen with excess oxygen, at high temperature forming nitrous dioxide gas.

Problem with these NOx gases is in the steam (water) produced by combustion, or in the water in air can form acids actually nitric acid we call acid rain, (sulfur from fuels can also form acid rain sulfuric acid).
NO2 + H2O --> HNO3

Industrially these flue gases are scrubbed, or catalytic converters are used to help prevent this acid rain.

We also use flue gas re-circulation (exhaust gas recirculation) to cool some of the combustion chamber to help somewhat to help lower the production of the NOx gas.

Edited error in my thinking


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## jonn (Dec 26, 2012)

GSP, I will try to post a link on this machine shortly. It is a Das Escape Inline. Touted by the manufacturer as a toxic fume scrubber. From what I gather, it introduces hydrogen to oxygen in a combustion chamber. The combustion chamber also gets toxic fumes and gases pumped into it for pyrolization. There is a bell or donut above the flame, looks like a mushroom cap. Seems that cap directs solids back down. Above this is a vertical stack. Inside this stack is introduced clean water just above the mushroom. I think it becomes steam under pressure to extend the suspension time of the smoke. Immediately above this is depicted as a scrubber. On top of the scrubber still inside this stack is showing a venturi scrubber. The venturi scrubber uses lye mixed with water and sprays downwards. All this would be inside the stack and under extreme heat. There is an outlet below the burner body that feeds into a storage tank. The storage tank has an inlet for Lye, for water and an outlet for waste water and a suction port outlet that feeds the venturi at the top of the stack. 
The power supply for the machine is 110 volts. It has quite a few electronic controls, mass flow sensors, hydrogen sensors, N2 sensors and much much more. The input gas is listed as N2. Next to the N2 inlet on the very top of the unit is an inlet or supply listed as H2O. Now, if this machine uses hydrogen and oxygen to create the combustion chamber gas, where does the hydrogen and oxygen supply come from??? I must admit I'm stumped. If there is no inlet for hydrogen, but there is an inlet for H2O and N2, I'm only left to assume that the H and O comes from the water. So, why have an inlet for N2?? Maybe FREECHEMIST can kindly explain my conundrum. Quite frankly, I'm stumped. I will now attempt a link. Butcher found a link for me previously, thank you butcher, let's see if I can add it here.


ESCAPE - Waste Gas Treatment
The ESCAPE technology offers an optimum combination of the two operating principles burning & scrubbing in the smallest possible space. It is an effective and highly versatile technology for waste gas abatement with a low cost of ownership. Based on this technology we have developed the ESCAPE product line, which offers flexible and customized applications for the abatement of almost all process waste gases in the semiconductor industry. Both heights and media supply are variable. All ESCAPE systems have a small footprint with service and maintenance access from front and back. Installation is quick and easy and does not require special tools.
Operating Principle
Hazardous substances of process waste gases are abated directly from where they originate (Point-of-Use, POI). Waste gases are fed into a ring-shaped burner apparatus where thermolysis sets in. Depending on the chemical composition of the waste gases, various reactions take place (oxidation, reduction, pyrolysis). In the subsequent scrubbing process, gaseous and solid compounds generated by combustion are absorbed and cooled down by a suitable scrubbing liquid.


ESCAPE INLINE
ESCAPE INLINE
ESCAPE INLINE® is our tried and tested basic system for the semiconductor and photovoltaic industries. It abates gas flows of up to 300 slm from various processes, induced through a maximum of four independent inlets. The system combines numerous advantages including high abatement efficiency, low cost of ownership, a small footprint and network compatibility for optimized operating costs. As an alternative to the scrubber liquid’s through-feed-system the reactor can be equipped with a water-conserving closed-loop design. The reactors are available in two sizes, and runs with all fuel gases and scrubber liquids.


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## jonn (Dec 26, 2012)

Merry Christmas Butcher, I didn't see your post until I posted mine, I will go back now and read it.


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## jonn (Dec 26, 2012)

Darn it, now I'm even more confused. I thought hydrogen and oxygen when introduced burned violently. Doesn't the space shuttle run on hydrogen and oxygen with steam as the exhaust? Oh brother, I need to study this some more 

Edit, thank you for the clarification butcher, I can breathe now :lol: 

Any rocket scientists out there that can explain this?


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## butcher (Dec 26, 2012)

Jonn I was wrong there I editted while you were reading, sorry.


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## jonn (Dec 26, 2012)

No worries Butcher :lol:


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## jonn (Dec 26, 2012)

Butcher said, NO2+H2O = HNO3

Nitric acid
So I think Im starting to understand it now. The N2 is also introduced for production of HNO3 to serve as an oxidizer...
Hmmmm


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## butcher (Dec 26, 2012)

Jonn,

Although I did not search long, I could not find much documentation on the unit, it would be nice to get a better understanding of its working principles and operation.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 26, 2012)

That system does a lot more than just mixes N2 and water... it burns gas mixed with waste gas from CVD and other semiconductor processes. In the second link there are some more detailed instructions on what it uses as consumables and what it produces. It might form HF and NOx as waste products... :shock: 

http://www.das-europe.com/en/treatment-products/waste-gas-treatment/escape-waste-gas-treatment/
http://www.epa.gov/semiconductor-pfc/documents/final_tt_report.pdf

Göran


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## jonn (Dec 26, 2012)

You are correct Goran, the the Nox is used for oxidation of waste product. I downloaded from the DAS website link you posted, thank you, and it shows in lay mans terms a beautiful picture of what this machine does. My question remaining now, is HOW does it do this? I'm currently studying any information I can find on it, and will see about getting an operators manual from the manufacturer. The Nox is also neutralized before being released into the waste outlet. Amazing :mrgreen:


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## jonn (Dec 26, 2012)

Goran, thanks again.  I was able to download the second link today. Page 45-46 section E is in regards to this machine. Seems pretty amazing. According to the manufacturer the Nox levels are far below required levels (that's great news). The production of Hf is also claimed to be burned off but then again it could be sent to an Hf treatment tank. I am also currently studying the owners manual I have and have requested a technical manual, hopefully I can get it.

By the way, I found information stating that the addition of N2 to H2O causes Hypoxia, lack of oxygen. So in essence, a separation of H2 and O. Learning sure is FUN :lol: 

Scrappile, thank you for the patent link, lots of useful information. I'm still reading that one 8)

Edit, ok so according to Honeywell labs, Hf is actually neutralized by NAOH, which is what is used in the waste tank. :lol: 
So, the waste is clean water? Wow, just need a trial run.

Edit again, may need a second tank with calcium hydroxide for best safety practice, (I think)


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## freechemist (Jan 4, 2013)

Jonn,

In your last post you say:

"_By the way, I found information stating that the addition of N2 to H2O causes Hypoxia, lack of oxygen. So in essence, a separation of H2 and O._"

There you are misunderstanding something. Hypoxia means lack of oxygen, *dissolved in water*, and has nothing to do with splitting of water, H2O into it's constituting elements, hydrogen and oxygen. Elemental oxygen (O2-molecules) and/or elemental nitrogen (N2-molecules), both dissolve to a certain extent in water, depending on their individual concentration in the atmosphere. It is possible to drive out completely dissolved oxygen from water by purging it with a stream of very pure nitrogen. In fact, it is well known laboratory practice, to treat water in such a way, to obtain oxygen-free water, which can be used to dissolve highly oxydation-sensitive compounds, like chromium(II)-salts, which in ordinary, untreated water, would be oxydized rapidly to chromium(III)-compounds.
In such nitrogen-purged water a fish couldn't survive, because it's lack of dissolved oxygen.


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## jonn (Jan 4, 2013)

That is a perfect explanation FREECHEMIST, it makes more sense now. I thank you kindly for your response and wisdom. Would it be safe to say that the oxygen free water is beneficial in a scrubber unit? How would it help? I am now and have always been the kind of person that loves to take things apart, either literally or just in complete understanding of the working parts. I find chemistry very intriguing and must say I envy your knowledge. That being said, I can also admit that it takes me a Very long time to fully understand things, but, once I learn, I can never forget. I am trying to get my scrubber set up and would rather not blow myself up. Are you familiar with a Das Escape Inline? Here's my intentions: connect a Linberg quartz vacuum furnace to the Das scrubber. Id like to use the furnace for calcining, reducing, and pyrolyzing. Am I way off base here? Is this a realistic plan? Will it work? Is there any advice as to what I should avoid? Much obliged, Jonn.


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## freechemist (Jan 5, 2013)

Hi Jonn,

Now you're asking a whole bunch of questions, from which I deduce, that you actually dont't know much about scrubbers and their general functioning.

The task of a scrubber (as far as I know) is, to eliminate noxious vapours and gasses from waste-gas-streams originating from various processes forming probably harmful volatile byproducts. This is done by collecting/neutralizing these hazardous substances in water and/or aqueous solutions containing appropriate dissolved chemicals, e.g. lye to neutralize acids.
Therefor it doesn't matter, what non-hazardous gases else are dissolved in the scrubbing liquid. Use of oxygen-free water is useless and doesn't help anything.

With the "ESCAPE"-system I am not familiar. As I can understand it, it's basical principle is, to mix the waste gas-stream with a fuel gas, followed by burning the mixed gas-stream in a ring-shaped burner. In the flame-zone of this burner various chemical reactions take place, and possibly hazardous components are broken down thermochemically, leading to smaller and more easily treatable units, which are absorbed and/or neutralized by the following scrubber-unit.

Concerning your idea, to connect a vacuum furnace to a scrubber-unit, my only advice is, don't do it. Burner and scrubber together are a way-in-way-out-unit, open on both ends. A vacuum furnace on the other hand is usually used as a wayout-unit, which, when used for thermal treatment under vacuum is only one-end open, to the vacuum line (pump creating and holding the vacuum).

Regards, freechemist


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## jonn (Jan 6, 2013)

Correct again, I don't know much about scrubbers. But more today than last week, and hopefully more next month. Learning should be a constant endeavor. I am not emberassed by my ignorance, therefore I ask questions. You are very helpful and I certainly appreciate it. 
On the vacuum furnace, if the tube was modified to have circulation, rather than constant vacuum, Would that work? For instance, air in one end, fumes out the other into the scrubber? The scrubber has a vacuum, the fittings are the same as the furnace tube. I would eliminate the Leybold 90 vacuum pump via a 3 way valve and connect to suction on the scrubber. The back end would have a one way valve of sorts to allow flow in and prevent exhaust. That way the tube would be cleansed continuously therefore allowing incineration to occur. Any thoughts? Thank you, Jonn.

Ps.I am very thankful to have such a tremendous wealth of knowledge on this forum, we all have busy lives and to think that there is such a place as this is amazing.


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## freechemist (Jan 6, 2013)

Hi Jonn,

I still can't see any reason for using a vacuum furnace in your intended calcining, reducing, and pyrolyzing experiments. These are best done using a simple flow-through-system, scrubber included, under normal atmospheric pressure. - Besides, I don't know anything concrete about your real intentions and planning precisely. I can only repeat, what I said in my last post: *don't do it!* - especially as long as you don't understand a very big lot more about what you would like to do, what processes and instruments you would like to install, together with their precise functioning in detail, - and last, but not least, - the inhering dangers connected unevitabely with them and with their use together.

Regards, freechemist


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## jonn (Jan 9, 2013)

Thank you for your time freechemist, my intentions are as follows: 
Use a Lindberg 55666 with a stainless tube 300 series. Ported in front and in back with KF-40 flange. Inlet will receive an anti back flow device to allow air in but not out. Outlet KF flange to Das Escape KF flange vacuum. Inside the tube I am planning on incinerating polymer based metal bearing material and north south bridge, ic chips, and other similar material. Plastic bearing gold parts. The tube furnace seems convenient because Its easier to seal a round tube, the parts are readily available. I have read the topic on INCINERATION here on the forum. It's basically similar to my intentions. Incinerate inside a tube and send the smoke to the scrubber. What am I to look out for in your experience?
Safety first of course, that's why I'm asking. Thank you, Jonn.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 9, 2013)

I have followed this topic for a while now and my feeling is that you are probably doing something stupid that will get you into a real mess. What you have is a scrubber but all scrubbers aren't the same. You wouldn't use a porsche to run collection runs of old computers, you would use a cheaper car with large loading capacity.
Going back to your scrubber it seems to be a unit ment to scrub processing gases from a semiconductor product line, not something ment for heavy duty incineration gases. In the bottom seems to be an oil diffusion pump and that is working only in 1/100 of an atmosphere and less pressure. It would also clog up with soot in the first run and would need a total breakdown and cleaning to get going again, not to mention the new vacuum diffusion oil would cost $100 or more.

Maybe you can use it for a scrubber after rebuilding it, but I would sell it at http://www.labx.com/ and use the money to build one of the proven designs that are here on the forum.

I could be wrong as I have only seen your unit on pictures and I haven't inspected it in person.

Göran


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## jonn (Jan 9, 2013)

Goran, I see your point on the Porsche example. Thank you, the Das is rated at 300slm. Is that not enough? I like the design of the Das as it burns and scrubs. If it's not able to handle the capacity then I will sell it on labx.I have not fired this up yet, still doing research. What better place than the forum? There's a wealth of knowledge here. What do you use? Did you build a homemade unit? Can you post pictures? I have been searching this forum and found a lot of home made stuff that seems really dirty, I would not use a BBQ grill and I have no interest in using charcoal or wood. I'm sure there's lots of nasties going up the flue that may not even be visible. I would love to see what you use, please. Pm me if you don't want it public. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, I simply want the cleanest way to incinerate. The size of the tube by the way is 6" round and 36" long. I'm sure I'm missing something here, not sure what though  Thanks, Jonn.


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## jonn (Jan 9, 2013)

I just reread your post. It would clog with soot in the first run, got it. I will put that pump under a microscope and see what it can handle before proceeding. Thanks Goran.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 9, 2013)

I have an idea of an incinerater but I haven't built anything yet. I'm only doing some hobby refining on the small side.

What is 300slm? I don't recognise that unit and I have never worked with scrubbers or incineration units, but I have worked with vacuum systems and pumps.

If you run the system and it is totally clogged up by the soot from the incineration then you may have contaminated it to the point that it's no longer worth anything.
Is it an oil diffusion pump in the bottom? If it is then you should know that it is designed to pump gases under vacuum and only gases. Any solids as soot will get stucked in the oil. If the oil gets too sticky it could really ruin the pump. An oil diffusion pump is working by boiling oil and sending it out in supersonic speed towards a cold surface, dragging along any gas molecules that happened to get in the way. As the oil condenses the gas is trapped in the oil and flows back into the bottom of the pump.

But as I told you before, I haven't inspected your unit and the only one that can do that is you. The decision is yours.

Göran


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## jonn (Jan 9, 2013)

g_axelsson said:


> I have an idea of an incinerater but I haven't built anything yet. I'm only doing some hobby refining on the small side.
> 
> 
> I would love to see what the pros use, do you have plans you could show?
> ...


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## kjt124 (Jan 15, 2013)

Sorry to hop in on this one being that I haven't posted in a while (lurking, of course), but you have freechemist so upset he has lost the ability to spell...

I need to interject some things or my conscience will not let it go.

jonn - you are trying to find your way through the Arabian desert using a map of Detroit. The unit you are trying to use as a combustion scrubber is purely for the very low concentration, but very specifically nasty fumes coming out of the semi-conductor industry. I imagine it would likely be used in a vapor deposition / RTP process for silicon chips or the like. These fumes bear no resemblance whatsoever to what you are proposing for it.

I will pop into a paragraph reminiscent of all the older cats on here that have been doing this stuff a heck of a long time while keeping all of their fingers and toes. Stop everything you are doing. Read this forum until you think you've read the whole thing. Then read it for triple that time more. I am only now figuring out how little I know. There are cats on here like Geo that have backyard setups with the simplest of materials that put some of the well funded guys to shame.

You have access to very fancy equipment, but if you don't use it correctly you will have a very fancy hole in your lung. Start by looking up pyrolysis. Follow it up by a study on combustion byproducts of the materials you are trying to incinerate, and then design your system with that in mind.............. or you could simply follow the advise of the people on this forum that already have done what you are trying to do. Look carefully - it is all there.

Also, SLM (Standard Liters per Minute) is a flowrate unit. ATM (Atmosphere) is a pressure unit. There is no conversion between the two without considering viscosity/effusion rates of the fluids in which you are working and some sort of time differential factor. It would make sense to say that a unit is capable of delivering 1 SLM at 16.7 ATM. Given that you could calculate mass flow rate of a fluid at a given temperature, but converting one to the other is like asking how many volts are in a watt. It doesn't make physical sense.

This forum is amazing, but only if you treat it like any other tool - with respect. I made some hasty "before my time" posts and looking back I know now that I wasn't even making sense with some of the things I was proposing. I decided I better get one heck of a lot smarter and find the information that is already laid out before me before I ask the same uneducated questions that pop up so frequently on this forum <huge respect to the level of patience the 'elders' on this forum exercise - many thanks> If you come back with a bit more knowledge of your subject and are looking for a bit of polish on your technique, then these are clearly the guys to help you. They are doing this out of charity (which is severely lacking today). You need to meet them half way, though.

Much luck!

PS - all of the educated people on here seem to LOVE pictures.


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## jonn (Jan 18, 2013)

Freechemist, after further research, I think you are correct about a flow through system. I spoke to a semiconductor manufacturer who is using these same setups in his work. He says to eliminate the vacuum and install a blower on one end of the tube. The output side would go straight into the Das unit converting the carbon monoxide with help from the blower. I'm sure the flow rate of the blower will need to be adjusted to coincide with the ability of the Das. The waste gases would first come into contact with the afterburner. Any solids would be diverted downwards by the hat and the scrubbing liquid. I will post a quote from the Das technical manual shortly as to the function capabilities of the unit. 
Thank you for your valuable time and knowledge freechemist and goran. 
Kj, I would thank you kindly to stop posting irrelevant garbage on my thread.


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## jonn (Jan 18, 2013)

Das Design and Function, from the technical manual:

A circular burner is located in the centre of the rotationally symmetric reaction chamber, with the waste gas inlet at it's centre. This construction allows the waste gas stream to pass directly through the flame. The burner is operated with a hydrogen/oxygen mixture. The incineration process is boosted if flammable waste gases are let into the burner, which is monitored by 2 flame sensors (fs1, fs2).

The energy of the flame causes the destruction of the chemical compounds if the waste gas is in the reactor flame. The fragmentation products oxidize in the flame. Solid reaction products are deposited on the factor lining. The reactor can be changed and cleaned easily and the waste gas outlet of the burner can be cleaned in an automatic cycle by the wiper that is moving over solid reaction products that are grown out on the burner nozzle. The wiper is driven pneumatically. It's end positions are monitored (p1,p2)

Toxic species, which do not oxidize during incineration and which remain in the gaseous state, are hydrolyzed. For this process, the waste gas is let out of the burner chamber and scrubbed with scrubbing water from spray nozzles.

Hydrogen hydrides which are produced during incineration are absorbed by the scrubbing liquid.

The liquid which is used for scrubbing the waste gasses fulfills two purposes:
- cooling of the system
- absorption of those particles which are oxidized but not adsorbed by the reactor lining. 

Between the spray nozzles above the reactor, packing material enlarges the contact surface of water and gas. A demister/dehumidifier is located at the waste gas outlet. 

The gases which have been cleaned and scrubbed by the complex disposal process meet legal requirements and can be emitted into the environment.

^^^^ this is exactly word for word from the technical manual ^^^^


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## freechemist (Jan 19, 2013)

Jonn,

Proper incineration, as I understand it, is a combination of two independent processes, namely pyrolysis and combustion. Strictly spoken: pyrolysis means breakdown of bigger entities (e.g. molecules, like polymers) to smaller entities (much smaller molecules, like the original monomers, the pyrolyzed polymers are built up from) by input of thermal energy, under the exclusion of oxygen. Combustion means reaction of a substance with (atmospheric) oxygen, often under deliberation of energy (heat). Solid products, remaining after such completed, combined pyrolysis-combustion processes are called ashes. With this formulation I try to make a little bit more understandable to you, what you are intending actually to do.

kjt124, whom you call kj supposedly in your post, does something similar in his post, trying to show to you, where your own understanding of your intentions is failing, and he gives you, precisely formulated, a concrete example of physical entities, you are confusing, not understanding them. Designing his post as irrelevant garbage on your thread means to me, that you, despite your so called further research, still do not understand, and therefor further help from my side may be useless, too.

freechemist


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## jonn (Jan 20, 2013)

Thanks freechemist. I must admit, looking back over kjt's post, I can't remember what set me off, other than the last comment. The educated people LOVE pictures? I guess it just made think of reading a comic book, not very educational in my opinion. Sorry kj, still friends I hope. Thanks for your time freechemist, it truly means a lot to me


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## butcher (Jan 20, 2013)

I do not understand this much either, I think I might just a little bit, 
(But then again just a little bit, is a whole lot of misunderstanding or confusion).

Maybe if kjt124, or freechemist can give us a simple explanation, to drive home the point, in good old farm boy language, something like Pyrolysis/combustion a two part process of burning wood, which could be a one part process like Pyrolysis where wood is converted to carbon (wood incinerated with lack of oxygen) to make charcoal (incomplete combustion).

Or combustion of wood, (which seems to me to be partly composed of Pyrolysis in part of the process) combustion of wood where Pyrolysis begins, but with combustion air added to the un-burnt gases from the wood, where combustion of the wood and smoke carbon monoxide is combined with excess air in combustion of the fuel to form carbon dioxide. 

Wood burnt with excess oxygen converted to carbon dioxide gas, steam and ashes (minerals the tree picked up from the soil), with possibly some NOx gas with reaction with nitrogen in air and oxygen in the heat of combustion).

If I understand this pyrolized wood (carbon) is still a fuel source, and still can be combusted (farm boy term for burnt to ashes) with heat and air.

And maybe how this burner might convert fumes which might not easily be scrubbed (absorbed into solution) to chemical fumes, which will be easier scrubbed.

or how the burner may destroy (or convert) some fume with pyrolisis to safer flue gases, and other fumes which may need complete combustion to make them safer as flue gas, or scrubbed flue gases, as some of these would not be safe as flue gas but can be captured or converted in a chemical solution.

But then again I may have to enroll in a few farm boy chemistry classes even to understand this simple idea (it is begining to not look so simple) when we start throwing something in the fire besides wood.

Jonn I think you might have a race car, that it may be hard to convert into an old farm truck to haul wood.


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## jonn (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank you Butcher, thank you a thousand times. I am always amazed as to your understanding and down home simple explanations.
What you explained is exactly what I need to know. I have a race car. Let's call it a Porsche, Goran said I wouldn't be able to use a Porsche to haul old computers so we will call it that.
Now, if I came across a huge pile of computers while driving my Porsche, I would do as follows :
Since I did not have my truck at the time, I would remove the CPUs, the memory or ram cards, the finger boards and any ics that had sockets. 
I would load those into my Porsche and drive away. Part of the problem is now solved.
I would later come back with my big ol diesel pick em up truck, and get the rest. The other part of the problem solved.

Same concept I would apply here with this machine. 
I consider this unit a final and complete destruction of any and all other nasty crap that would otherwise not be treated by simple burning. So, in country boy terms, I am looking for a way to connect this into the process for complete treatment. Examples: Jonn, you should run your smoke through water first, it would cool the smoke and pick up the solids that may otherwise harm your machine.??
Or, Jonn, if your big ol diesel truck can tow your Porsche, you could put the high grade parts in the Porsche. You could put the low grade parts in the back of your truck. When you get home, simply disconnect your truck from your Porsche, give a good look at your low grade stuff to make sure you got everything removed that you want to keep. Take that pile with your truck to the scrap yard and sell your junk metal. Come home, pick up your Porsche and drive over to Butchers house so he and you could grab a beer and process your high grade stuff :lol: :roll:  :mrgreen: 

Now , I hope this makes sense to all those folks more white collar than I. Being a country boy, what else do I need in order to use this machine safely? 
I'm certain that if Geo and NoIdea were around, we would get this thing going. Even something as basic as vacuuming the remaining fumes into this thing would be a kick. Who knows, It might even be fun. :idea:


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## qst42know (Jan 20, 2013)

Is this the device you are trying to adapt?

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=16488

I think this device is far to specialized to adapt to scrubbing refining or incineration wastes. What works for fluorine compound fumes from silicon chip manufacturing quite possibly won't work on anything else, at least not without the help of one or more chemical engineers. Perhaps not even with their help.


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## jonn (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes qst42know, that's the one. My goal is to use it as a final or end stage incinerator/ scrubber. Circuit boards when burned produce fluorine products as well as other junk that will not be handled by fire alone. I know most people don't burn circuit boards, ( I hope not). I am hoping that I may incorporate this unit into a chain of processes that would allow Anything to be reduced to ash and processed further for values. It is this chain of processes that I'm trying to figure out. If it works like I'm hoping it will, complete boards can be turned to ash, ball milled to crush any ceramics, and poured into blister copper anode bars. The copper would be refined in the cell and the sludge would get processed for gold, silver and pgm's. Harold once said that ewaste should be done in volume, I agree. I am in contact with an engineer in hopes that we may figure this out together. I will post any advancements or progress. (it would truly be nice to know that a system like this has been figured out and is in perfect working order, ewaste is a problem I'm determined to find a solution for, at least on a small scale). Thanks all, Jonn.


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## kjt124 (Jan 20, 2013)

Simply in an effort to qualify the statement I made in my post:



kjt124 said:


> PS - all of the educated people on here seem to LOVE pictures.



By educated people I meant the people you and I would direct our questions to which we hope are more educated than us in the particular subject that pertains - I was making no blanket statement or allusion to a lack of intelligence on anyone's part. However, it is possible that I made a careless paraphrase that was misconstrued. If that is the case then I apologize. I will not be as careless next time.

Also, the mentors here do, indeed, love pictures. Even if they don't know what you are talking about when you describe your device a simple picture can prompt them to ask the questions that pull out the information you are inadvertently not volunteering.

Back to the point, it is becoming more clear now what your aim actually is and it sounds much less careless then before, however the same issue remains. You haven't described what the initial steps you plan to use for your scrubber system are. You can't design the end piece without knowing what will feed into it. It is true that burning circuit boards will produce a small amount of fluorinated flue gas compounds, but in general those are easily scrubbed out of flue gas by running a counter current vertical packed column where the flue gas is is bubbled in the bottom and a weak caustic solution is run in the top. Sodium LOVES fluoride. You will never destroy the fluoride you are concerned about. If I can figure out how to link things I will post an excellent pdf from one of the other members here depicting a scrubber system. It was intended for use with AR process vapor, but if you know what you are trying to scrub you could easily determine appropriate scavenging ions to add to the water to make it an extremely effective scrubbing unit (especially if it were the last stage before discharge).

Also, there is an enormous variety of compounds that will come out of burning circuit boards that you are not addressing depending on the circuit boards, the age of them, how hot your incinerator is, etc. I would think that the fluorinated compounds are likely the least of your worries. I would be FAR more concerned with dioxins and furans that DO NOT break down in an incinerator and will kill you. Most commercial incinerators (even hazardous waste rated ones) are entirely incapable of destroying these compounds. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, that only one left in North America permitted to destroy dioxin bearing material is the Clean Harbors facility in Port Arthur, TX (where they were supposed to have destroyed all the Saran gas years ago).

This is why I said look through the forum and look for someone that has done what you are trying to do instead of asking blindly for someone to fill in the blanks for you around a machine that is not intended for what you mean to do. You should see that people here are very willing to help - it is only polite to provide as much information about your intended process as possible (minus any sensitive trade secrets that you maintain a profit on) so that no one is wasting their time by responding to your questions. It is win/win if you do your homework and present the "whole picture" before asking someone to fill in the blanks.

Hopefully my link is to follow in the next post.


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## kjt124 (Jan 20, 2013)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=12586&p=128800&hilit=lab+hood%2C+ventilation+%26+scrubber#p128609

This is the one I was referring to which I believe was originally posted by HigginsMechanical

This is another one that is a little more complicated posted originally (I believe) by smj:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=15950&p=160596&hilit=scrubber+setup#p160596


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## kjt124 (Jan 20, 2013)

... The first link - scroll to the first post in that thread and click on the pdf link


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## qst42know (Jan 20, 2013)

Before you possibly ruin this device for its intended purpose perhaps you should investigate scrubbers designed specifically for incinerators. And then investigate scrubbers specifically for e-waste incinerators The technology may be vastly different.

There are far too many variables in both scale and scope to assume any old scrubber might do.

http://www.google.com/search?q=incinerator+scrubber&hl=en&tbo=u&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4GZAB_enUS459US459&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_W_8UMaYMMPrqAHmuIH4Cw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=646


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## jonn (Jan 22, 2013)

Thank you kjt and Qst ,i will be studying the links provided.


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## jonn (Jan 26, 2013)

So, dioxins and furans are CL+ aromatics?
I've been doing a lot of reading and found most places using a filter in a bag house to capture dioxins and furans, I'm still studying of course.


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## kjt124 (Feb 5, 2013)

Baghouse filters are used to capture particulate dusts (mostly metal fume) from effluent gases.

Dioxins and furans are going to be vapor chemicals and would be removed by either very high heat, chemical scrubbing, or perhaps ionic filtration (kind of like the ionic breeze). The latter two would require further processing.

Dioxins and furans are most typically the byproduct of incomplete thermal destruction of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), but the combination of chemicals in mixed lots of circuit boards gives a mix sufficient for concern (especially the older you go).


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## jonn (Feb 6, 2013)

Gore Remedia catalytic filter. Same makers as Gore-Tex. Take a look at their claims, let me know what you think. They use these in crematoriums as well.


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## kjt124 (Mar 5, 2013)

That unit appears to be designed (at least somewhat) for what you are intending. It appears this is added to an existing baghouse as a polishing step (only a cursory study performed). My only real concern is since you don't currently have any raw gas concentration data I would be concerned with initial studies to determine catalyst life / fouling and hence operating costs, but if you find a good stack testing consultant in your area they should be able to provide you with information on flue gas testing. It would appear you are on the right track with a unit like this though.


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## jonn (Mar 6, 2013)

Thank you kjt, I am currently in communication with several folks, an engineer, the manufacturer, a furnace builder, mediburn, and a furnace company who designs and builds units for the industries . This last person is designing an after burner, Das is helping with the function of the Escape unit. The engineer will be calculating the stack flow and off gasses. The furnace builder is supplying parts and knowledge for the incinerator. Mediburn has sent me details of their units function and design. The afterburner designer stated just yesterday in our email, sometimes you need a wet caustic neutralizing stack, that's when I mentioned the Das unit to him. I think I'm on the right track. 
It seems that not too many folks are willing to impart their wisdom on incinerating cleanly. I firmly believe the reason for this is $$. If one would understand the fundamentals of building such units and knew how to weld and understood electronics and plumbing, such a unit could be built for a fraction of the selling price of such units. By the time my design is complete, it would potentially cost many times more than I am willing to pay. Of course i will have engineering approvals and the associated fees, but my plan is to have a completely safe and stable exhaust stream with minimal waste and complete recovery and conversion. 
Thank you for interest in my thread , I hope it finds you well. I will certainly post any advancements as they arise, Jonn.


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## kjt124 (Mar 12, 2013)

Good luck John. It sounds like you are on the right track. I hope it ends up profitable for you.


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## Palladium (Mar 12, 2013)

I use to build and design afterburners for my aluminum sweat furnaces. I've dealt with some parts of what you are trying to do, but i still don't exactly have a good definition of what it is your trying to do. I'm still somewhat familiar with the EPA laws that govern this so to speak, but not totally up to date. Here's my first question. Have you contacted your state permitting authority to tell them what it is your trying to do? You may design and build this system only to find out that you didn't have to go through all the trouble you are or they could tell you it's not enough. They should be your very first contact before any design and planning stages of manufacturing. Different size processes qualify under different permits and what i mean by that is they have a small source permit (air) and a major source permit. Do you know which one you need to apply for. In your case it's probably going to be the minor source unless you are planning on running 24-7 and doing 50 tons a week. The small source permit is easy to obtain for the afterburner system. It requires a few pages of paperwork and probably a $1500/year permit fee or somewhere around that. And to tell the truth you don't need an engineering firm to design it. You can build one yourself if you have a little knowledge. The epa doesn't care who builds it and as far as i know being an engineer doesn't give you any special qualifications with the epa to build them. It's all about the machine parameters and not your education. The only requirements for the afterburner should be a .8 sec retention time at 1600 deg F. Their is two ways you have to prove this to the EPA. One is a calculation you use to figure air flow into the system through the burner or combination of burners with a thermal coefficient figured in. This will give you a volume rate. You then have to use that number for designing your afterburner so the air is slowed down which equals your retention time in the chamber so the thermal breakdown can take place. You will have to show this calculation on the air permit work sheet. Other than that calculation their is only one other thing that the EPA requires. That is a data logger with a thermal couple. It will record the afterburner temperature and store it in for record if the EPA ever wanted to look. Sort of like the patriot act requires us to record proper identification but not to report it unless ask to. Other than that the engineer is basically worthless if you have the knowledge yourself and after that you still need a fabricator to fab it up for you anyways. Then refractory, burners, and control systems.


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## jonn (Mar 12, 2013)

Hi Palladium, thank you for your input. I know you have a lot more knowledge in these things than I . My original post was intended to determine whether or not the Das unit could be used for this industry. I consider the first step in ewaste refining to be incineration. It it also very important in other sourced material, sweeps, carpets just to name a few. If these items can be incinerated safely and turned to ash, the ash could be processed. I would be better at fabrication at this point and not so good at calculation. That's why im consulting with others more knowledgable than I. I can't pretend to calculate something I don't fully understand. I read your post twice and afterwards found the EPA requirements for afterburners, its called the Fact Sheet. I noticed in this fact sheet this sentence : For halogenated VOC streams 1100c (2000f) combustion temperature, 1.0 second retention time, And use of an acid gas scrubber on the outlet is recommended. Since the Das has both, I would think it should work. As a matter of fact, I thought that would be best before even reading the EPA fact sheet. I just now found this fact sheet. Now, you mention a data logger and thermocouple, great. The Das has both. Here's the basic idea, an incinerator loaded with about 50 lbs maximum of metal bearing parts. A blower on one side to introduce oxygen. The other side we will call the outlet. The outlet would feed into the Das. The Das has an afterburner with a dome to direct any solids back down into the holding tank. Above this dome is a scrubber and wiper system that sprays a solution of NAOH and water.This water solution neutralizes, cools, and directs the solids into a tank. If you could help me understand this and get this working, that would be great. if you are interested in helping me , please send me a PM.Thanks, Jonn.


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