# Gold and Crude Oil



## hyderconsulting (Jul 4, 2008)

I'm throwing this one out there for discussion figuring it will start some interesting conversations and debates. I've been pondering this question for sometime trying to get the best angle on it so to speak. The question is: If crude oil takes a big turn downward in price where does gold go? A lot of "financial analysts" are saying this current crude oil price level is the result of pure speculation and not demand, that this is a bubble that will pop like the dot com bubble and crude will take a big tumble, a big correction. If this is the case what will happen to gold. Will it go way up, way down, or perhaps nothing? I've read some reports that say gold is too high in price like oil and it will take a big market correction also. And let's look at the flip side of the coin also. What if crude oil takes a really big jump in price as a result of significant trouble in the Middle East. Does gold follow and how far?
Whoever responds to this please don't list a bunch of outside links to financial reports and so on. I myself could come up with a couple of hundred of reports either pro or con on this issue (and I've read a lot of them anyhow). I'm interested in the personal opinions of the members of the forum who have experience and intuition on these questions. I tend to put more faith in the member's voices here on this matter than most of what is being currently offered out there anyhow. Regards, Chris Hyder.


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## Oz (Jul 4, 2008)

Chris,

Great question! I have pondered the same thing. Not that I am an expert but my 2 cents is that oil is being used as a store of value much like gold is traditionally when currencies are weak. However there is far more speculation at hand with oil when you consider that supply is not really that short (for now). Oil is also one of the most heavily shorted commodities right now for that reason. If oil prices go down due to supply catching up with the speculators prices I don’t think PMs will take a big hit. The same economics being in place that makes people want to keep their wealth out of a falling currency will still support PM values.
If the dollar strengthens it takes the wind out of both commodities cost increases. If there is a dramatic drop in a short time frame for oil there will probably be a knee jerk fall with PMs as well, but I think it will find support again rather quickly by bargain hunters that want to stay out of fiat currencies. Look back at what the PM support values were before this run-up in oil price, then take into account how much less a dollar is worth over the same timeframe. 
In addition if you have a lot of dollars coming out of oil they have to go somewhere. If the dollar is still weak it won’t stay as cash, our economy is not likely to improve in the short term so the stock market is risky. With the stock market you also have to make sure that your dollar gains are greater than the devaluing of the dollars it is based in. That leaves commodities and PMs that have always done well there. One must also consider the strategic importance of PMs in the ever increasing chase for fuel alternatives as catalysts. While I’m not the biggest fan of a hydrogen economy for fuel many are and big money is being spent there. Take a look at palladium prices and its uses in hydrogen for fuel. Now look at what happened to PGMs as we have stepped up performance requirements and use of catalytic converters.

My real fear is the federal government passing legislation to prohibit private ownership of gold again (possibly other PMs as well) to force us into supporting their dollars as they continue to devalue them.

Ok, maybe that was 3 cents worth.

Oz


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## cerise (Jul 4, 2008)

Chris,
Gold will keep going up.As so will PGMs ,and Silver ,let me explain.
First of all a lot of you may not know about The North American Union .

This like the Euro will have a common currency but only its called the Amero.No not kidding im serious here.When this is complete we will be set up the same as all the european countrys as they are now the European Union. These new unions are under stiff guidelines to conform to the new carbon tax that is imposed on those who polute,see that is why the heavyly pt plated hydogen fuel cell will take over and the converters will be extinct .Cause of made up global warming we all think we need to go green, that cleans the air at the same time they know free energy will take over and they know they cant collect a tax on something that doesnt sell so now they got you with the great Global Warming scam so they are ahead ogf the ballgame,carbon tax is here and is going to skyrocket as we pull away from so called fossil fuel.So stay alert as the Bilderbergs get set to crash The American Dollar so that the people will embrace the new currency,The Amero,which is backed by SIlver.

Now Gold is Internationally accepted .Its not going anywhere .One thing is though, the elite do want to drop the price of gold to scare evryone out of there gold and into the currency, the Amero.Leaving everyone out of there gold just like in 1914 when the fed told everyone to trade it in for paper.LOL anyway,same thing getting ready to happen again.

Look up the Security and prosperity act of 2005, Bush signed a secret trade agreement with Canada and Mexico where they are building the NAFTA super highway 1200 feet wide and 4000 miles long .This going thru Mex ,Us into Canada.Soon we are going to be under A North American Union.

On that note ,The Whole World is nothing more than a stage and everything has been pre written,and we the sheeple watch the show unfold while all along being easily herded.Maybe take a look at infowars.com .
Cerise


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## Shecker (Jul 4, 2008)

The new Amero's are physical metal coins -- one of copper, one of silver, and one of gold. The downfall of America has already been written into law, but this goes all the way back to FDR.

Randy in Gunnison


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## cerise (Jul 4, 2008)

I would have to say even before that ,the evil has been trying to infiltrate our country since its beginning. As the New Age of Aqaurius looms closer one will see the Importance in water ,and metal.O yea Shecker I am very interested in your passive system,very nice.
Cerise


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## Anonymous (Jul 31, 2008)

Those are nice theory's.

I am pretty sure crude oil and metal prices are sky rocketing because of the rampant rate at which China has been purchasing them.

We saw something VERY similar with japan right before they joined world war 2. In this japan bought huge stores of metals and oil and PM's to build electronics, and weapons of war.

China has a huge demand for these materials, thus the price is sky rocketing.
Your looking at the fallout from the growing gobal market and the impact of that growth on America.


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## istari9 (Jul 31, 2008)

I noticed that oil is off and so is gold from a week ago. Our support of China is Wal-Marts volume causing use to ship the raw materials to China that they use to make the cheap products we buy here. I think we should spend our 3cent dollars HERE, and boycott Wal-Mart. If this country were self supporting then it would have a better chance of survival. 
This government is not totally lost to the power mongers IF YOU, ME ,ALL of US VOTE! If we express our dissatisfaction via our obligation IE voting then we could regain control and overpower the aspects of this government! As long as we let the media and the money do our thinking then we disserve what we are given. 
I for one have seen better days before Vietnam; I remember a slightly better world. It had its faults but we the people had more control. This government is there for our retaking, that is if we get off our duffs and do something about it. 
Our next major vote will determine weather our net pay goes down via Taxation by as much as 35% or more. What’s really funny is that the world is in the same position as the US. Our leaders are not honest and cannot be trusted. Our government has large windowless prisons to house the dissenters, death camps called Concentration camps. Don’t be surprised to see the ovens warm up again as we relearn from Hitler again!
History is about to repeat its self. Call me silly but I see the future and it’s not a nice picture to say the least. Stop me when I'm wrong or speak of a better answer. I'm all ears!

Ray


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## NuggetHuntingFool (Jul 31, 2008)

O.K.

First of all you have to take everything with a grain of salt that movies like Zeitgeist, Esoteric Agenda, and Alex Jones videos tell you about. A lot of these movies have been debunked over and over.

I'm not saying there isn't an NWO, or The Bilderbergs don't control certain things. Because they do. It's what's above them that we do not have any knowledge of. Some think there are demons or devil's advocates, or perhaps even aliens. I lean towards the first two, but the third wouldn't surprise me either. Where do you think we got the integrated circuit? Roswell!

As far as the price of oil it's just another control. Why do you think we're in Iraq? People think we took Saddam out because he's a dictator and cruel, which he was. However, we really had him ousted because he refused to bow down to OPEC's demands. Plain and simple. Why aren't we in Africa where people put tires around the neck's of children and light them on fire? There isn't oil to control in Africa. The reason Obama wants to go back into Afghanistan is to complete the pipeline that's going from Iraq to that country. So basically the oil is controlled and the price isn't determined by anything but greed. The estimated largest oil reserve in the WORLD is under our Rocky Mountains and large ones on the northern slope of Alaska.

As far as the price of gold, it's the true sign of what our dollar is worth. Oil isn't the factor but the gold is. There was only one man that would have saved us too. Ron Paul. Americans should be ashamed for believing the propaganda on the Boob-Tube and not even recognizing the ONLY candidate that told the truth, well Kucinich told the truth too. Obama and McCain are both controlled by the same masters, just speaking in different tongues that will lead to the same outcome.


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## cerise (Jul 31, 2008)

Bush didnt want the Mideast ,hes just doing what the puppet master s want him to do ,form the mideastern Union.its the sixth and we will be next and last to form the North American Union,and when the people find out ,we will all be enemies of the State.They need 7 unions and we are the 7th.And were the only country that has the right to bare Arms.And when they take that ,its genocide that always follows.not to say he wont make a pile of money from the oil and the Military industrial complex


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## NuggetHuntingFool (Jul 31, 2008)

It will never happen in the Mid-East. The Arabs would never allow it. They'd fight and die before it ever happened. You know why? No Fluoridated water to keep them calm and passive. It's their trick with us in The States. We'll be more submissive and the reason they need Fluoride is 'cause we have so many guns. We've been medicated without awareness for over 5 decades.

Mine are ready to go. I'll never let America go down in flames. My kids' future depends on me.


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## cerise (Aug 1, 2008)

I think America is Asleep at the wheel and aint wakin up until she slams head on into a concrete wall.And then it doesnt matter if she wakes.


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## istari9 (Aug 1, 2008)

As I saying You're all right! Ron Paul was the only true word up! We are headed towards the end of America as we know it... A sad day to say the least.

Ray


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## Anonymous (Aug 1, 2008)

America will be fine, we may have a little scuffle, but the real basic people out here are good, honest fine folks, that will eventually quit voting for people because they know thier name, or they have always been a senator, etc.


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## cerise (Aug 1, 2008)

Doesnt matter who you vote for they all work for the Globalist that put them there.And if you arent in the big club you might as well forget it.


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## NuggetHuntingFool (Aug 1, 2008)

Very true. Anybody that thinks their vote counts since The Electoral College was put into place is sorely mistaken. It should be one man, one vote but unfortunately it's whoever satisfies the needs of The Globalists, Bankers, and Lobbyists that is put into power. Like I said earlier, the two candidates now are both the choice of the elite and regardless of what either of them say or do, the outcome will be the same.

Sounds conspiratorial, but whatever. It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out and if one sits and ponders it really does make sense. Believe me, I can't stand outlandish conspiracies, but they do happen. Otherwise the word wouldn't exist!


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## hyderconsulting (Aug 11, 2008)

There has been some interesting posts and conversations here! But going back to my original question of what will happen to the price of gold when crude oil drops, it appears that it will follow crude oil from what is happening now in the markets. There is a double whammy going on to prices. Demand is falling for crude and the dollar is jumping in strength. Gold is falling and so are other precious metals. Hmmmmm!!! How far will it go? What's more the investors are jumping ship on commodities of all kinds and are stoking the stock market instead! If anyone here has a really good crystal ball showing what is going to happen in the future with prices please let us all know. Regards, Chris.


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## Rag and Bone (Aug 12, 2008)

I think some shenanigans will take place to push oil higher (Iran, I'm looking at you). Also, I don't understand why they have fallen after Russia invaded Georgia. The global situation still looks to unstable for a strong dollar and low oil. I think commodities will come back strong. The "gnomes in London" were just taking some profits.


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## Oz (Aug 12, 2008)

Starting with what I “think” I know, the dollar is gaining in strength because of other economies and other currencies that are weakening. This does not mean that the dollar is not loosing its purchasing power anymore, just that others are doing so faster than the US at this time. 

The thing I have been debating is that no matter how strong the dollar becomes compared to other currencies, if it is spent in the stock market where will the profits come from in a slow economy with tight money for building business to justify a higher stock price? You need a profit in these unless it is purely one speculator betting it up then taking his profit when he sells to someone else willing to bet it will go higher. That would be much like the housing crisis we are having now that is unraveling. That is fine until people realize they paid too much and bail, or can’t make the mortgage or stock call. Then the stock market will unravel with a vengence.

With the dollar getting stronger could commodities actually get low enough including oil to stimulate the US economy into productivity again? Even if it did, what of the drops in home values and the huge glut of foreclosed homes being sold for $.50 on the dollar. I think that will depress prices for some time. All that bad debt gets taken from the economy in one form or another. 

Oil and precious metals are needed even more in a strong economy for production above and beyond their hedge value against a currency. PMs have the advantage of being easily transportable and greater value for the same weight. If by some miracle our economy turned rosy there would be an increased demand for them.

However I think a lot of why commodities are going down is that demand is expected to wane due to a slow economy in the US and increasingly in the European Union and Asia. If the E.U. tries to print their way out of the slowed economies with free money policy like the US is, then I think despite low industrial demand for precious metals the demand for them against falling currency values will increase rapidly, raising prices. 

As to timing of some of these ideas… sorry Chris, I sold my crystal ball to make last month’s mortgage payment.


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## OMG (Aug 12, 2008)

I like the idea of how the government prints more money when they run out. What I don't like is that they'll throw me in jail if I print more money when I run out. Hippocrits!

I think with all this globalization, the standard of living will become more equalized across the globe. So china (and others) are due for an increase and we in north america are due for a big decrease.

Oh well, what can you do when you live in a shoe.


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## AuMINIMayhem (Aug 12, 2008)

Holy frijoles, batman! I was just going to say it's this simple..

gold's value is directly DIS-proportionate to the value of the USD on the world market.. the USD goes down, gold goes up and vice versa..

crude oil?... that's an easy one.. it's not Iraq, it's not Bush, etc. etc.. the UAB and OPEC see the world clamoring and screaming for cheaper oil and they're saying "hey, screw you, buddeh!.. " and guess what.. we pay it. 'nuff said. I mean really, you open a coffee shop and charge a buck for a cup of joe.. then through whatever circumstances (people start talking about the price of coffee beans skyrocketing) you raise your price to 3 bucks a cup.. then it's discovered that there was really no reason to panic.. but you haven't lost any customers.. sure some of them are a little more pissy before they get their morning java, but they walk away with a cup of coffee at a price inflated 200% or more with a smile and maybe a small tingling of regret somewhere... you as the shop owner know, they'll be back tomorrow... so here's the question.. what are you gonna do? bring the price of coffee back down to a buck? I don't think so, why would you? People are paying it, they're not happy, but they pay it nonetheless.. 

Also.. the middle-east is NOT our biggest problem with crude pricing.. take a trip down the information superhighway and peek in on Venezuala and South America ( cough..CHAVEZ!..cough) now look at the pricing war between OPEC and South America..

Ladies and Gentlemen.. it's a dog eat dog world and WE'RE ALL wearing Milk Bone britches..  :twisted:


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## cerise (Aug 12, 2008)

The world is a stage.


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## Oz (Aug 12, 2008)

We might be seeing the fundamentals change, a bit. Gold, silver, and the dollar are up from overnight lows. At the same time the DOW and oil are down, even with one of the Georgia pipelines closed as a precaution. These are not big moves but oil and PMs are not staying tied and it is unusual to see the dollar and PMs rise together even a little. With the buying season approaching for gold and silver (physical demand) I would guess that these physical buyers are waiting to see a bottom. Once they think it is there it could cause a rush to get it while it is low. Now that would be nice!


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## NuggetHuntingFool (Aug 12, 2008)

You guys should watch the documentary entitled "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised."

The real people that run this country are Jingoists that deserve nothing but a firing-squad because they are traitors of the worst kind!

I like to call them :arrow: "Plastic Patriots".


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## hyderconsulting (Aug 12, 2008)

Crude oil went down again today to $113.01 on the New York Mercantile market. But gold stayed pretty much the same hanging around $810 per troy ounce. I read a couple of commentaries on where gold is going now and the crystal ball gazers said that gold may be bottoming out now with the futures profit takers finishing up their cashing in forays so to speak. It does make some sense to me. I can't quite see gold keep following crude oil prices if the latter keeps falling. In other words the gold bottom is a lot higher than the crude oil bottom. That's my image in my crystal ball!
One more observation that has already been noted previously. If Israel decides to go ahead and hit Iran's nuclear sites then all bets are off on what crude oil and gold will do in the short term. The sky may be the limit on both of them. I can't find anyone here recently who will take a bet with me on whether or not Israel will strike. Past history says they won't hold back!!!!!!!!! Wanna bet they won't????????


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## cerise (Aug 13, 2008)

Gold is being sold off buy the feds ,i think they 're selling off 5 metric tons a year.I think after that is sold gold will bottom out,around 5 or so hundred per troy ounce.And Israel will get us in WWIV. Like I said the whole world is a stage.


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## Rag and Bone (Aug 13, 2008)

Is it safe to get back in the water? That 8 session losing streak was a little spooky. I get the feeling its going to drop further.


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## Oz (Aug 13, 2008)

That depends if you are a short term or long term investor. In the short term it has less risk to the downside than it has in a while, but the markets are flakey and far from logical. 

As a long term investor it’s hard to beat entering now considering world wide currency problems. I would also stay away from any paper PMs or ETFs and take physical delivery. There are way too many naked shorts out there that cannot be fulfilled if industry and individuals want to take delivery in an uncertain world.


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## istari9 (Aug 13, 2008)

That is right buy low sell high. I'll take your bet.

"I can't find anyone here recently who will take a bet with me on whether or not Israel will strike. Past history says they won't hold back!!!!!!!!! Wanna bet they won't???????? "

Israel isn't packing the same testticular package they did in years gone by, and they have more of an ear as to what the US wants. I do hope they would but Iran will have to hit them first...

 Ray


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## Rag and Bone (Aug 13, 2008)

Israel hasn't hit a big guy for a long, long time. If it does come to blows, it will be very ugly for sure. Iran has a lot more than a few pawns on the board (not like Iraq and that goat herdin' Tally-ban did). Israel wouldn't hit Iran without either US approval or direct support, which means we might get caught up in it. I wouldn't bet on such an ugly proposition (in public anyway). 

I'm very worried about what final blunder President Bush might make. He is not suited to making delicate decisions. His judgment has proven to be miserable and I can't see him going out with a whimper.

I'll piss on his grave.


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## AuMINIMayhem (Aug 14, 2008)

Well the Georgia situation vertainly isn't helping anything...

I work in the defense industry, so I definately keep a firm eye on what's going on in the world, hell it's my job.. 

In my humble opinion, Israel, should they choose to make the first move, NEEDS to hit hard and fast.. they can't do this whimpy "shock and awe" thing that we did with Iraq... they really need to put a smackdown on Iran. If anyone were to hit Iran it absolutely needs to be a K.O., otherwise, if they're even slightly dazed they'll come up swinging harder and more ferociusly than we've seen in the past. Iran's got Russia in their back pocket, make no bones about it.. so a war between Iran and Israel would really serve to be more of a chess match, between Russia and the US.. almost like a military tech. expo..


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## cerise (Aug 14, 2008)

OMG i cant believe the war mongering coming from you.Why?
And that wimpy shock and awe thing ,let me tell you about shock and awe,she was a goddess of sacrifice in the ancient days and her festival started at exactly the same time we invaded Iraq and the festival ended at exactly the same time it was over in Iraq.Coincidence I don't think so.What you work for is a bunch of sick worshipers of some sick stuff.You should really do some research and do it with an open mind.People like you are the reason our Country is the way it is.So if you are in the defense department like you say then do what you vowed to do ,protect us from abuse,FOREIGN And DOMESTIC.And right now there is more domestic tyranny than ever before so you have alot of work to do .OPen your mind.Because we need you tr if you are in there without study then just Quit and do us all a favor.


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## cerise (Aug 14, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Ah_v6V1Ck

Putin Walks into a Trap

By Mike Whitney

Go To Original

The American-armed and trained Georgian army swarmed into South Ossetia last Thursday, killing an estimated 2,000 civilians, sending 40,000 South Ossetians fleeing over the Russian border, and destroying much of the capital, Tskhinvali. The attack was unprovoked and took place a full 24 hours before even ONE Russian soldier set foot in South Ossetia. Nevertheless, the vast majority of Americans still believe that the Russian army invaded Georgian territory first. The BBC, AP, NPR, the New York Times and the rest of the establishment media has consistently and deliberately misled its readers into believing that the violence in South Ossetia was initiated by the Kremlin. Let's be clear, it wasn't. In truth, there is NO dispute about the facts except among the people who rely the western press for their information. Despite its steady loss of credibility, the corporate media continues to operate as the propaganda-arm of the Pentagon.



Former Russian President Mikhail Gorbachev gave a good summary of events in an op-ed in Monday's Washington Post:

"For some time, relative calm was maintained in South Ossetia. The peacekeeping force composed of Russians, Georgians and Ossetians fulfilled its mission, and ordinary Ossetians and Georgians, who live close to each other, found at least some common ground....What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas....Mounting a military assault against innocents was a reckless decision whose tragic consequences, for thousands of people of different nationalities, are now clear. The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a "blitzkrieg" in South Ossetia...Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity.

" ("A Path to Peace in the Caucasus", Mikhail Gorbachev, Washington Post)

The question for Americans is whether they trust Mikhail Gorbachev more than the corporate media?

Russia deployed its tanks and troops to South Ossetia to save the lives of civilians and to reestablish the peace. Period. It has no interest in annexing the former-Soviet country or in expanding its present borders. Now that the Georgian army has been routed, Russian president Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin have expressed a willingness to settle the dispute through normal diplomatic channels at the United Nations. Neither leader is under any illusions about Washington's involvement in the hostilities. They know that Georgian President Mikail Saakashvili is an American stooge who came to power in a CIA-backed coup, the so-called "Rose Revolution", and would never order a major military operation without explicit instructions from his White House puppetmasters. Most likely, the orders to invade came directly from the office of the Vice President, Dick Cheney.



The Georgian army had no chance of winning a war with Russia or any intention of occupying the territory they captured. The real aim was to lure the Russian army into a trap. US planners hope to do what they did so skillfully in Afghanistan; lure their Russian prey into a long and bloody Chechnya-type fiasco that will pit their Russia troops against guerrilla forces armed and trained by US military and intelligence agencies. The war will be waged in the name of liberating Georgia from Russian imperialism and stopping Putin from achieving his alleged ambition to control critical western-owned pipelines around the Caspian Basin. Much of this "think tank" generated narrative has already appeared in the mainstream media or been articulated by American political elites. Meanwhile, the fighting in the Caucasus has diverted attention from the massive US naval armada that is presently sailing towards the Persian Gulf for the long-anticipated confrontation with Iran.



Operation Brimstone, the joint US, UK and French naval war games in the Atlantic Ocean preparing for a naval blockade of Iran, ended just last week. The war games were designed to simulate a naval blockade of Iran and the probable Iranian response.



According to Earl of Stirling on the Global Research web site:

"The war games included a US Navy supercarrier battle group, an US Navy expeditionary carrier battle group, a Royal Navy carrier battle group, a French nuclear hunter-killer submarine plus a large number of US Navy cruisers, destroyers and frigates playing the "enemy force. The lead American ship in these war games, the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN71) and its Carrier Strike Group Two (CCSG-2) are now headed towards Iran along with the USS Ronald Reagen (CVN76) and its Carrier Strike Group Seven (CCSG-7) coming from Japan.

"

Stirling adds: "A strategic diversion has been created for Russia. The South Ossetia capital has been shelled and a large Georgian tank force has been heading towards the border....American Marines, a thousand of them, have recently been in Georgia training the Georgian military forces... Russia has stated that it will not sit by and allow the Georgians to attack South Ossetia...This could get bad, and remember it is just a strategic diversion....but one that could have horrific effects.

" ("Massive US Naval Armada Heads for Iran", Earl of Stirling, Global Research)

In June, former foreign policy adviser to President Jimmy Carter, Zbigniew Brzezinski, presented the basic storyline that would be used against Russia two full months before the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia. The article appeared on the Kavkazcenter web site. Brzezinski said the United States witnessed "cases of possible threats by Russia, directed at Georgia with the intention of taking control over the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline".



Brzezinski: "Russia actively tends to isolate the Central Asian region from direct access to world economy, especially to energy supplies..If Georgia government is destabilized, western access to Baku, Caspian Sea and further will be limited".

http://www.
kavkazcenter. com/eng/content/2008/06/13/9798.
shtml


Nonsense. Neither Putin nor newly-elected president Dmitry Medvedev have any such intention. It is absurd to think that Russia, having extracted itself from two pointless wars in Chechnya and Afghanistan, and after years of grinding poverty and social unrest following the fall of the Soviet state, would choose to wage an energy war with the nuclear-armed US military. That would be complete madness. Brzezinski's speculation is part of broader narrative that's been crafted for the western media to provide a rationale for upcoming aggression against Russia. Brzezinski is not only the architect of the mujahadin-led campaign against Russia in Afghanistan in the 1980s, but also, the author of "The Grand Chessboard--American Primacy and it's Geostrategic Imperatives", the operating theory behind the war on terror which involves massive US intervention in Central Asia to control vital resources, fragment Russia, and surround manufacturing giant, China.



"The Grand Chessboard" it is the 21st century's version of the Great Game.

The book begins with this revealing statement:

"Ever since the continents started interacting politically, some five hundred years ago, Eurasia has been the center of world power.....The key to controlling Eurasia, says Brzezinski, is controlling the Central Asian Republics.

"

This is the heart-and-soul of the war on terror. The real braintrust behind "neverending conflict" was actually focussed on Central Asia. It was the pro-Israeli crowd in the Republican Party that pulled the old switcheroo and refocussed on the Middle East rather than Eurasia. Now, powerful members of the US foreign policy establishment (Brzezinski, Albright, Holbrooke) have regrouped behind the populist "cardboard" presidential candidate Barak Obama and are preparing to redirect America's war efforts to the Asian theater. Obama offers voters a choice of wars not a choice against war.



On Sunday, Brzezinski accused Russia of imperial ambitions comparing Putin to "Stalin and Hitler" in an interview with Nathan Gardels.



Gardels: What is the world to make of Russia's invasion of Georgia?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Fundamentally at stake is what kind of role Russia will play in the new international system.(aka: New World Order) Unfortunately, Putin is putting Russia on a course that is ominously similar to Stalin's and Hitler's in the late 1930s. Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt has correctly drawn an analogy between Putin's "justification" for dismembering Georgia -- because of the Russians in South Ossetia -- to Hitler's tactics vis a vis Czechoslovakia to "free" the Sudeten Deutsch. Even more ominous is the analogy of what Putin is doing vis-a-vis Georgia to what Stalin did vis-a-vis Finland: subverting by use of force the sovereignty of a small democratic neighbor. In effect, morally and strategically, Georgia is the Finland of our day.



The question the international community now confronts is how to respond to a Russia that engages in the blatant use of force with larger imperial designs in mind: to reintegrate the former Soviet space under the Kremlin's control and to cut Western access to the Caspian Sea and Central Asia by gaining control over the Baku/Ceyhan pipeline that runs through Georgia.



In brief, the stakes are very significant. At stake is access to oil as that resource grows ever more scarce and expensive and how a major power conducts itself in our newly interdependent world, conduct that should be based on accommodation and consensus, not on brute force.



If Georgia is subverted, not only will the West be cut off from the Caspian Sea and Central Asia. We can logically anticipate that Putin, if not resisted, will use the same tactics toward the Ukraine. Putin has already made public threats against Ukraine.

" ("Brzezinski: Russia's invasion of Georgia is Reminiscent of Stalin's attack on Finland"; Huffington Post)

Brzezinski takes great pride in being a disciplined and rational spokesman for US imperial projects. It is unlike him to use such hysterical rhetoric. Perhaps, the present situation is more tenuous than we know.

Could it be that the financial system is closer to meltdown-phase than anyone realizes?

It should be clear by Brzezinski's comments that Georgia's invasion of South Ossetia was not another incoherent exercise in neocon chest-thumping, but part of a larger strategy to drag Russia into an endless conflict that will sap its resources, decrease its prestige on the global stage, weaken its grip on regional power, strengthen frayed alliances between Europe and America, and divert attention from a larger campaign in the Gulf. It is particularly worrisome that Brzezinski appears to be involved in the planning. Brzezinski, Holbrooke and Albright form the "Imperialist A-Team"; these are not the bungling "Keystone Cops" neocons like Feith and Rumsfeld who trip over themselves getting out of bed in the morning. These are cold-blooded Machiavellian imperialists who know how to work the media and the diplomatic channels to conceal their genocidal operations behind a smokescreen of humanitarian mumbo-jumbo. They know what they are doing and they are good at it. They're not fools. They have aligned themselves with the Obama camp and are preparing for the next big outbreak of global trouble-making. This should serve as a sobering wake-up call for voters who still think Obama represents "Change We Can Believe In".



Richard Holbrooke appeared on Tuesday's Jim Lerher News Hour with resident neocon Margaret Warner. Typical of Warner's "even-handed" approach, both of the interviewees were ultra-conservatives from right-wing think tanks: Richard Holbrooke, from the Council on Foreign Relations and Dmiti Simes from the Nixon Center.



According to Holbrooke, "The Russians deliberately provoked (the fighting in South Ossetia) and timed it for the Olympics. This is a long-standing Russian effort to get rid of President Saakashvili.

"

Right.

Is that why Putin was so shocked when he heard the news (while he was in Beijing) that he quickly boarded a plane and headed for Moscow? (after shaking his finger angrily at Bush!)

Holbrooke: "And I want to stress, I'm not a warmonger, and I don't want a new Cold War any more than Dimitri does....The Russians wish to re-establish a historic area of hegemony that includes Ukraine. And it is no accident that the other former Soviet republics are watching this and extraordinarily upset, as Putin progresses with an attempt to re-create a kind of a hegemonic space.

"

It is impossible to go over all of Holbrooke's distortions, half-truths and lies in one article but, what is important is to recognize that a false narrative is being constructed to demonize Putin and to justify future hostilities against Russia. Holbrooke's bogus assertions are identical to Brzezinski's, and yet, these same lies are already appearing in the mainstream media. The propaganda "bullet points" have already been determined; "Putin is a menace","Putin wants to rebuild the Soviet empire", "Putin is an autocrat". (Unlike our "freedom loving" allies in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt!?!) In truth, Putin is simply enjoying Russia's newly acquired energy-wealth and would like to be left alone. But it is impossible to be left alone when the US spends 24 hours a day pestering people. The world deserves a break from an extremely irritating USA.



So why are Brzezinski and his backers in the foreign policy establishment demonizing Putin and threatening Russia with "ostracism, isolation and economic penalties?" What is Putin's crime?

Putin's problems can be traced back to a speech he made in Munich nearly two years ago when he declared unequivocally that he rejected the basic tenets of the Bush Doctrine and US global hegemony. His speech amounted to a Russian Declaration of Independence. That's when western elites, particularly at the Council on Foreign Relations and the American Enterprise Institute put Putin on their "enemies list" along with Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Castro, Morales, Mugabe and anyone else who refuses to take orders from the Washington Mafia.




Here's what Putin said in Munich:

"The unipolar world refers to a world in which there is one master, one sovereign---- one center of authority, one center of force, one center of decision-making. At the end of the day this is pernicious not only for all those within this system, but also for the sovereign itself because it destroys itself from within.… What is even more important is that the model itself is flawed because at its basis there is and can be no moral foundations for modern civilization.

”

“Unilateral and frequently illegitimate actions have not resolved any problems. Moreover, they have caused new human tragedies and created new centers of tension. Judge for yourselves---wars as well as local and regional conflicts have not diminished. More are dying than before.

Significantly more, significantly more!

Today we are witnessing an almost uncontained hyper-use of force – military force – in international relations, force that is plunging the world into an abyss of permanent conflicts.



We are seeing a greater and greater disdain for the basic principles of international law. And independent legal norms are, as a matter of fact, coming increasingly closer to one state’s legal system. One state and, of course, first and foremost the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way. This is visible in the economic, political, cultural and educational policies it imposes on other nations.

Well, who likes this? Who is happy about this?

In international relations we increasingly see the desire to resolve a given question according to so-called issues of political expediency, based on the current political climate. And of course this is extremely dangerous. It results in the fact that no one feels safe. I want to emphasize this – no one feels safe! Because no one can feel that international law is like a stone wall that will protect them. Of course such a policy stimulates an arms race.



I am convinced that we have reached that decisive moment when we must seriously think about the architecture of global security.

”

Every word Putin spoke was true which is why it was not reprinted in the western media.



“Unilateral and illegitimate military actions”, the “uncontained hyper-use of force”, the “disdain for the basic principles of international law”, and most importantly; “No one feels safe!”

Putin's claims are all indisputable, that is why he has entered the neocons crosshairs. He poses a direct challenge to---what Brzezinski calls---the "international system", which is shorthand for the corporate/banking cartel that is controlled by the western oligarchy of racketeers.



South Ossetia was a trap and Putin took the bait. Unfortunately for Bush, the wily Russian prime minister is considerably brighter than anyone in the current administration. Bush's plan will undoubtedly backfire and disrupt the geopolitical balance of power. The world might get that breather from the US after all.


f/?!*%g useless space stripped from this bulletin using My$pacer Pro
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king idiot © says:

Don't underestimate Putin & his buddies..
They know how to play chess a lot better than Cheney and his neocons..
Russia's hand was forced, if they didn't react then USA would have
just kept pushing their luck further..
If Russia eventually sides up with China, then you gonna see REAL regime change !
Bye bye american hegemony.


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## AuMINIMayhem (Aug 14, 2008)

:lol: cerise..* first and foremost*.. 99% of the time I speak (write) with tongue FIRMLY planted in cheek..

yes, I do work in defense, but the company I work for does not build ANY weapons systems, we ONLY build counter-meausures, life saving equipment, night vision equipment and communications equipment.. and every day when we go to work we know that the products we make are directly responsible for getting our boys out of harms way (ie: defeating an incoming IR guided missile or IED detection/disarmament) 

we go to semi-annual briefings where we see our porducts in the field WORKING... and we're not talking some doctored up or slanted CNN coverage.. we see raw footage.. ever had a team of pilots show you a video of their platform being fired at? ever had a general bring you into a room full of employees and show you footage of our craft being shot down and then the bodies being dragged through the streets, dismembered, set ablaze, hung from over-passes and bridges?.. ever had a soldier/pilot *tearfully* thank* you *for saving his/her life? 

I have.

As far as _war-mongering _is concerned, *I simply do not promote war as a person*, I'm simply stated that Iran is NO joke and if Israel does decide to mix it up with Ahmadenijad, they better do it right rather than dragging themselves into the same situation we did in Iraq. 

Another thing people are forgetting is this.. unfortunately war = loss of life.. that sucks.. big time.. but on that same note, war is much different now.. we hear all day long that we've lost 4,000+ soldiers (and that is TOO many, I agree), but you have to realize we have come a VERY long way from how wars were fought even half a century ago. We still have a long way to go, but I think the general public has forgotten that 50 some odd years ago we lost 3 times as many soldiers in the first hours of "D-day" than we have lost in what, seven years of conflict?.. we also have killed less enemies and civilians than in the past.. if you simply run numbers alone, which are too foten overlooked, this is BY FAR, historically, one of the least deadly wars..

War _IS _ugly.. I don't deny it, nor do I condone it.. but there are people out there who want to hurt you and me and they definately don't give a damn about our "liberal thinking".. 

we have tried the "isolationist" position in the past.. a little country in Europe ruled by a mad-man... we stayed out of that as long as we could. Had we not stepped in, this forum (assuming we were even given access to such novel things as the internet) would be written in German..

The problem is, the people that do the most screaming about our current situation or political strife in general, don't seem to bring anything to the table that may provide a solution.


ughhh.. ok.. no more political talk.. I come here to relax and learn not to bash heads with other members...

and FYI I respect and value everyone's opinions on here.. without debate progress will never occur


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## istari9 (Aug 14, 2008)

Lest we forget the plan of the one world government is to distroy 2/3s of the worlds population. The better to control the balance.

Ray


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 14, 2008)

I think it's higher than 2/3. The Georgia Guidestones only want a maximum of 1/2 billion people. Some UN documents say that they want the population down to 1 billion. They're working on it and they're doing a fine job. Just with the lab creation of AIDS alone, they knocked a big chunk out of it. Chemtrails have a lot of promise, as do things like morgellons, HAARP, starvation, engineered famines, manipulated wars, GE food, aspartame, MSG, and that funky cooking oil that they use. The elite powers of this world won't rest easy until us extra 6 billion useless eaters are dead.


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## ander (Dec 17, 2009)

IMHO truth lies somewhere between... Therory of conspiracy is good, but as I was explained LOGICALLY, there is no such a thing like NWO conspiracy.( I spoke to a very wise man, I don't remember what he said but in my words would it be like that Of course I can see it very clearly that world is heading a good way but wrong direction. I live in EU, I also spent some time in US. I can tell You all that fascism has just come back to us. The THING shouldn't be called 'conspiracy', it's rather bad will of greedy people do suck our blood. They do not make any conspiracy- it's just using opportunity to reach temporary, particular goals. In my country konspiracja- conspiracy is used as a synonyme fo fight against enemies that occupy our country, the other word- 'spisek' really means conspiracy in english. So according to that explanation, I can not agree that there is any "conspiracy", because in real world it means also secrets and trust. The polititians, bankers, and the rest of that bunch do no trust each other at all, the secrets are only partially shared and revealed. Noone knows the whole 'truth'. So if your'e a banker, you better watch your back, because your 'friends' will kick you out of that bussiness, for exaple. UN is another bunch of *****, I do not believe ANY word they say. Behind all evil the greed lies. But, nobody wants to get rid of 2/3 of human population. It not a good deal. You always need enemies- so you have it in africa, ME, Asia. Slaves are needed so we have them in 3-dr world countries, as we are slaves to bankers. You need losers to pay you for charity- you show them hi-res perfect pictures made by $10k camera of dirty thirsty, starving children, who need only $.50 a day to live. You want another tax- charge them for CO2 emission. If people in charge of this world are really so good, nice, help-willing, trying to make our world better- why they don't just curse war and making weapons??? We do not need another M of AK-47. Why so much food is burned or sank the seas. It's all been created for the big ones not for us- little hamsters trying to survive. I run my own company for a while. I wanted to import some DG stuff from India. Air shipping more expensive than the stuff. Anyway it was 50% off the current stock price after all, sea shipping and transporting to my site would be twice as expensive an air shipping and it woul took at least 4 times longer. But going back to the point- I can import chemicals for R&D only- It's easy to make. But REACH makes me to register the stuff- not so big deal. If e.g. I import 999kgs annually I need only inform ECHA about that fact, but if I import just a tiny bit more 1001kgs annually I will have to fully register it, make some analysis and pay tens of K just to get it right. 1t/annually is not so much money, just to keep the small business running. So, what little single person company is able to spend (rather loose) money for registration to have the expense back for 3-4 years. (the stuff was sophisticated so there are just few companies in whole Europe that use large quantities. Average customer orders 10g-1kg.) I could have contract just for 800-1200 kgs annually. It's a simple trick to avoid full registration but you must find another company to import missing quantity for you and you have to pay for that- nothing's free. All the absurdity of EU law makes me sick and angry. They forbidden to use mercury thermometers- because of mercury. You can buy electronic device or the one with gallium alloy- galistan(galinstan)- patented. AND you can't buy regular lightbulb- they waste soooo much energy, you will buy our crappy short-living compact electroluminenscent devices for just a little more than 20 times the pricE for lightbulb is. One thunderstorm- replace them all with new. GREAT DEAL NOT FOR US and they contain MERCURY too. SCHISOPHRAENIA- don't think so. It's like bidding on an auction- who gives more wins... thank You for You attention.


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