# wires containin pd---1100 kgs--no more detail at the moment



## arthur kierski (Aug 21, 2018)

how one would extract pd from wures containing PD---any initial sugestion is welcome


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## snoman701 (Aug 21, 2018)

This should yield no response as there isn't enough information to give a relevant answer.

What's the predominant metal? Percentage Pd? Other elements present? 


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## 4metals (Aug 22, 2018)

Welcome back Arthur, it has been a while!

If you can tell us the base metal of the wire we can get you on the proper path.


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## Platdigger (Aug 22, 2018)

Yea, long time Arthur, how have you been?


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## arthur kierski (Aug 22, 2018)

Dear forum friends,thanks for welcoming me back-----I am back in order to help my son----he gets lot of precious metals scrap ,but has to re-sell the scrap to others for low prices---I am beginning with the wire containing Pd-----next week,i will know the metal composition of these wires and will pass to you.---i also will have lots of carbon embedded with gold---and hundreds of spent rhodium baths from fantasy jewelry manufacturers---- it is an opportunity that i cannot let pass------thanks to you all and i am returning 
, Arthur Kierski


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## arthur kierski (Aug 22, 2018)

Sorry for my English---but it will get better---regards again
Arthur


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## Lou (Aug 23, 2018)

Hey Arthur, been a while ! Hope your health is good!


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## g_axelsson (Aug 23, 2018)

Nice to see you back, Arthur!

Also interesting to follow this thread, sounds like you have a lot of projects going on.

Göran


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## goldandsilver123 (Aug 28, 2018)

Olá Arthur! Como vai?

How much do you estimate to have of rhodium in those plating solutions?

The carbon embedded with gold is activated charcoal? (carvão ativado)

Does the wire containing Pd comes from palladium plating as an intermediate layer of the plating process?


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## arthur kierski (Aug 28, 2018)

As i wrote last week,only this wednesday or thursday,i will have these material with me--then i will estimate the quantities ofprecious metals in them----As i worked and made rh 2grams solutions for a couple of years,i found that spent bath,have around 0,2 grams of rh left--- i will have at least 200spent bath monthly---that is 40 grams of rh,or 20new rh bath---or sell the rh powder as i did when it was 10000dollars an ounce--today is 2800 dollars an ounce------as for the pd, i hope that the percentage will be between 0,5% to 1%per kilo of wire--that is5,5kilos or 176 troy ounces--as for the carbon with gold embedded in it,i only know at the moment that is a huge quantity collected during 10years-----I hope with these informations ,i helped the brazzilian member of the forum--- Regards to all members who wellcomed me back---specially Plattdigger,Lou,GSP,Axelson and the ones that i forgot ,because i am doing by memory---i do not have the threads in front of me
Yours Arthur Kierski


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## arthur kierski (Aug 28, 2018)

I forgot to mention Goram and 4metals-----and our teacher Steve
Arthur Kierski


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## arthur kierski (Aug 28, 2018)

i made a mistake--RH is 2235 dollars an ounce at this moment----


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## arthur kierski (Aug 29, 2018)

As i wrote last week, today i have the details of the wires containing PD-----the wires are copper wires plated and replated with paladdium---Now ,i need sugestions of recuperating this pd from the wires---perhaps 
there is silver in the layer bellow the pd----Thanks all for waiting for the details 
Arthur Kierski


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## 4metals (Aug 29, 2018)

Generally speaking electroplated wires have an even plating thickness because they are usually plated on a continuous feed circuit so the wire basically stays in a continuous length and transfers from reel to reel while being dipped in different baths to be cleaned, plated and rinsed before being rewound on the last reel.

I would try to repeat the process by using a warm dilute nitric solution to see if the time exposed to the acid is consistent to strip to bare copper. Then it's just a matter of playing with temperature and nitric concentration to get a workable time to strip to the copper base and no more. I will be guessing here but I believe the Pd was put on as a thin deposit to prevent any electrical degradation from tarnishing of a heavier plated Ag layer beneath. 

To strip just the plating will save a lot of fumes and acid and give you clean copper to sell. Is this stuff still wound on coils? That could make it easier.


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## snoman701 (Aug 29, 2018)

What would these be used in?


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## goldandsilver123 (Aug 29, 2018)

4metals wouldn't you try copper electrolysis?

Arthur do you know what is the Pd percentage? Perhaps you could use this copper as a gold/PGM collector when doing melts.


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## 4metals (Aug 29, 2018)

> 4metals wouldn't you try copper electrolysis?



It all depends on whether this is a one time shipment or something he will see routinely. With a copper cell he could branch off into smelting and copper refining to concentrate the values but only a shop owner knows what is likely to show up at his door or what he is willing to go after. Stripping can be fast and easy if all conditions are right so it is a viable option but far from the only way forward.


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## arthur kierski (Aug 30, 2018)

4 metals----- i have takem 60 kilos as saample--it came in 4bags----it is in a mesh form---itook home about 40grams of the 60kilos---it is very bright and one can unwined the mesh(40grams) into a long wire----so i deduce that it came from a continuos electroplating process----I am not interessted in the copper underneath in the wire---the owner of this 1100kgs wants back 60 % of the pd recuperated---the other 40% is mine---he is not interrested in the Ag,or other eventual pms in the wire-----i have plenty of nitric,and dmg,hypoclorites,nh4cl ,formic acid,hidrazine-----so i have to choose which method to use to recuperate the pd-----I have a crazy idea of using Nacn+nmss and deplate the wires,and to the solution add naoh to elevate the ph and zinc powder to precipitate the pd----i used to do this with gold plated wires----Could any member tell me if this idea could work-----it would save lots of time and work---thanks again,and open to sugestions

the quantity of pd-goes from1 to 2¨%----------
Arthur Kierski


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## kurtak (Aug 30, 2018)

4metals said:


> Generally speaking electroplated wires have an even plating thickness because they are usually plated on a continuous feed circuit so the wire basically stays in a continuous length and transfers from reel to reel while being dipped in different baths to be cleaned, plated and rinsed before being rewound on the last reel.
> 
> I would try to repeat the process by using a warm dilute nitric solution to see if the time exposed to the acid is consistent to strip to bare copper. Then it's just a matter of playing with temperature and nitric concentration to get a workable time to strip to the copper base and no more. I will be guessing here but I believe the Pd was put on as a thin deposit to prevent any electrical degradation from tarnishing of a heavier plated Ag layer beneath.
> 
> To strip just the plating will save a lot of fumes and acid and give you clean copper to sell. Is this stuff still wound on coils? That could make it easier.




4metals - I don't "think" this will work as a result of the reactivity series --- because copper is more reactive to nitric then Pd the "potential" of the nitric is going to want to go to work on the copper long before going to work on the PD --- in other words the nitric the potential of the nitric is going to go more (by a lot) to reacting with the copper while going less (much less) to reacting with the Pd

Here is a quote to something I wrote once (this was a discussion about separating Pd points from Ag points) ----



> There is no way to identify them (the Ag from the Pd) just by looking them & you don't need to anyway (in order to separate the Ag ones from the Pd ones for processing)
> 
> Why ? --- because first off they are ether silver - or they are Pd - & the acid (nitric) will separate them for you --- now I know everyone is going to say - "wait a minute Kurt if you put Ag points in nitric along with Pd points isn't it just going to dissolve both the Ag & the Pd"
> 
> ...



Here is a link to that thread ----- http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=23091&p=242399&hilit=potential#p242399

Kurt


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## 4metals (Aug 30, 2018)

The wire I have seen has a thin flash of Palladium over Silver with the intention of the Palladium acting as a tarnish inhibitor. The thin coat of Palladium should etch away quickly because it is so thin, leaving Silver exposed to the nitric. But if you leave it in too long the copper will build and cement the Silver and the Palladium. When the intact wire first see’s the nitric, no Copper is exposed to the acid which will give a window of opportunity for this process to work. 

I like to start simple and practical before high tech, and attempting to selectively digest the values fits that bill.


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## nickvc (Aug 30, 2018)

Trying to think logically here but wouldn’t it pay to dissolve say 10 kilos and melt say 2 kilos into a bar and use that to cement the Pd and Ag using that bar, this will also recover the values contained in the bar for free, the value of the Pd if Arthur is correct in its percentage would make it financially viable, the other thought was to shred the wires and use AP to remove the copper but unless it was in very small pieces it might take some time.


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## arthur kierski (Aug 30, 2018)

Thanks Nickvc,you gave an excellent idea in cementing dissolved wire in a melted wire bar---using AP to dissolve the copper,is also a good idea---but as you say it takes along time----did you think of my idea of deplating de wires?
thanks for your informations
Arthur


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## nickvc (Aug 30, 2018)

Arthur I don’t think cyanide will strip the palladium but I could be wrong and I can’t think of an easy way to strip the Pd completely or dissolve the copper base that is quick, 4metals idea is certainly worth a try but I suspect it will be a balancing act between heat and acid strength or you will have Pd cementing back into the copper.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 30, 2018)

The original patent for the electrolytic concentrated sulfuric cell we all use, US patent # 2,185,858, says that, besides Au and Ag, it can be used to strip Pd from Cu. The only difference in the one we use and the one in the patent is the strength of the sulfuric. Our baths are about 92% sulfuric and they don't attack the copper (I used tech. grade H2SO4 - about 96-97% - and added 5% water, to make it strip faster - measure out the water and add the H2SO4 to the water). The one in the patent says the specific gravity can be can be as low as 1.65, which is only about 73% sulfuric. In my experience, that will attack copper, especially when the temperature exceeds 37C. 

It strips gold pretty fast. I have never tried it with silver or Pt. Au works good because,as you strip, the Au form a powder and falls to the bottom - no gold dissolves. I used the same 50 gallon stripping bath, daily, for a year or two before I had to make up a new bath. I just siphoned it off and harvested the gold every 3 weeks, or so, and reused the solution over and over. 

I've never used it for Pd or Ag, so I don't know what happens. My guess, especially with the silver, is that it will dissolve until it is saturated. Nearly concentrated sulfuric, very hot, in a cast iron vessel, has been commonly used in the mining industry, for many years, to part the Ag from the Au in hi-Ag dore'.

I have no idea what would happen with the Pd. I know it would strip but getting it out of the H2SO4 could be a problem. You might try adding about 2-3%, by volume, HCl to the sulfuric. It would be fumey for a day or so. I have played around with Au, using the HCl, and it seemed to work fine. I don't think any of the Au dissolved as HAuCl4. The reason I suggest the HCl addition is that it may block the Ag from dissolving, due to formation of Ag Cl. 

I do believe I could mess around and figure out how to get the Pd out of solution. The obvious problem is how to automate moving that wire through the solution. Maybe with the reel of wire, with a slight drag on it, on one end, and a take up reel on the other end. Probably need a rinse or 2 after stripping.

If you want to play with this, there are 2700 hits if you search for - sulfuric cell. I also tried - sulfuric cell .jpg and got about 80 hits. That brought up a few photos. Also search for - sulfuric stripper. If this interests you, let me know and I'll give you some pointers on experimenting with this.

Just thinking out loud.


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## arthur kierski (Aug 30, 2018)

Thanks GSP---i asked if it was possible to obtain pd from plated copper wires,using a product similar to gold stripper for gold-----that is nacn+nmss oxidizer------gold stripper leaves de copper plated wires intact and the gold goes to solution,and precipitated by cementation with zin powder----Thanks for the attention----i have 1100kgs of plated pd wire--and doing the traditional method with nitric acid ,willtake a long time---thanks ------ Arthur


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## Lino1406 (Aug 30, 2018)

10NH4OH : 3.5H2O2:10H2O; (NH4)2S2O8:H2SO4 - copper etchants that are supposed not to etch palladium


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## nickvc (Aug 31, 2018)

Arthur with over a ton to process I’d be tempted to go for the copper cell route and recover the Pd from the slimes, I’m guessing the owner would rather have a good result rather than a fast one as even using a cell won’t be quick, perhaps aim to give returns after each 100 kilos are processed and maybe suggest a100% return for the first 500 kilos with any balance at the end.


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## arthur kierski (Aug 31, 2018)

Nickvc-----i decided to do the way that i did with paladium in other ocassions------i calculated that processing 20kilos a day ,it will take 55 days to proceess this Pd-----i thought it would take much longuer------i will now give a resume------i make a nitric solution and distilled water in a 20 liter plastic vessel-----in this vessel i add slowly the wires -----2to3kilos at a time---wait until all this dissolve,and add another2to3 kilos in 3or 4,hours 20kilos is dissolved ------after that ,i add sodium hipoclorite to the dissolved paladium solution,and then i add nh4cl and mix------imediatelly red paladium sal is formed and floats in rhe vessel--now i filtrate de solution and the red palladium salt stays in the paper----after this filtration and before continuing i test the mother liquid with stanous chloride-------if i find that there is still pd in the solution, i repeat ,hipockorite and nh4cl--and the red salt is added to the filter paper-----the red salt out with distilled into a becker add nh4oh that willdissolve the red salt ,and formed impurities in the bottonof the becker,is filtrate out-----from here on i have some options--by doing 20kilos,a day i expect to obtain 200grams of Pd dayly-----i might also add dmg to the nitric and obtain huge quantities of yellow fuffy pddmg salt and takes the pd from the yellow salt-----i already did this a few years ago--------thanks to you for all advices----but i willmake a test in deplating--the wires with nacn plus oxidizer solution


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## arthur kierski (Aug 31, 2018)

LIno,thanks for the formulation for copper etchants--
regards,
Arthur Kierski


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## fishaholic5 (Aug 31, 2018)

Arthur,
Will the Hypochlorite react with the silver or does it stay in solution through the process? Or do you drop it separately prior to this?

Cheers Wal


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## arthur kierski (Sep 1, 2018)

fishaholics---i did this process of obtaing the red impure pd salts many times(nh4pdcl4) and if agcl is mixed with the red salt,on the continuation of the process will be eliminated-----i really do not remember how i 
dealt with agcl -----but with your question,i decided,that i will eliminate by making the initial nitric solution with tap h2o instead of using distilled water-and filtate the agcl out before making red salt with hypocloride and nh4cl------or add some nacl to the dissolved wire-and filtrate the possible agcl out and them continue the process to obtain the red salt------thanks for the alert----- 
Arthur Kierski


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## nickvc (Sep 1, 2018)

Arthur wouldn’t it pay you to cement the values using some of the wire melted into bars at least that way some of the material will be recovered for free and you will have metallic values rather than salts, you can always test the solution using DMG to ensure you have all the Pd out and if not use ammonium chloride to drop any residues.


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## arthur kierski (Sep 1, 2018)

Nickcv---before beginning the efetive extraction i will experiment your sugestion of cementation with a bar of the melted material--and tell you the results-------i will try also the nacn+oxidizer, that many years ago a member of our forum---Juan Manoel Arkos Frank,from mexico,told me that it works with plated wires -----not only gold----- I hope that one of this 2methods works because is quicker and cheaper---the method that i describe yesterday is the one that i used----many brown fumes in the dissolution with nitric---and much cl gas to make the red salt------Thanks and please continue to make sugestions and advises--it helps me a lot-

Arthur KiersKI


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## arthur kierski (Sep 1, 2018)

Nickvc,after i wrote the last reply to you a few minutes ago,a question come to my mind-----WHEN cementingthe pd powder ,the nitric solution could redissolve the precipitated palladium again? i thought also that i could elevate the ph of the nitric solution and cemented with copper bars--the pd would precipitate?
Arthur


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## nickvc (Sep 2, 2018)

The whole idea of cementation is to replace your target values or metals and replace them with another so you want a little free acid, not too much, and then place your bar into the solution, the solution would rather have the copper in solution than the Pd so it replaces the Pd with the copper from the bar, for this to work well I’d suggest adding an air bubbler, any Pd or silver in the bar will be released as the solution dissolves the copper to replace the values, even if it does dissolve them at first it will almost instantly release them with the copper.


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