# Sulfuric acid (food grade or alternative) for blueberry plants



## 1sep1969 (Aug 25, 2022)

Just to let you know in advance, I'm an amateur, not into chemistry. I use Sulfuric acid (diluted in water) for my blueberry plants to keep the soil ph down. For now, I buy an expansive ph down solution for fish and plants (I'm assuming it's safe enough for blueberry plants).

I would like to get food grade sulfuric acid, but I can't find it online. There is one website, but it's super expensive (around 95% sulfuric).

Another option is (new, store bought, not used) battery acid. Many amateur blueberry growers use battery acid and they say it's pure enough for consumption and blueberry plants, and that it doesn't contain heavy metals. Apparently, purer than elemental sulfur. But it's not labeled "food grade", so I always hesitate.

I'm never going to be able to get food grade, so what can I do?

Options:

1. Is ACS Reagent Grade (Sulfuric Acid 96% ACS Reagent Grade Solution (95-98%, Concentrated H2SO4)) or Lab Grade (Sulfuric Acid 93% (92-94%) Solution, Lab Grade) good enough? Note the concentration is high, and would rather not deal with high concentration in order to dilute it...

2. Use battery acid? A hydroponic website (A guide to different pH down options in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics) recommends battery acid and states: " Note however that most battery acid products in developed countries are also ok, as the quality of these acids demands the metallic impurities (more commonly iron) to be quite low. If in doubt, you can do a lab test of the sulfuric acid to see if any impurities are present. "

How can I do a lab test? Where do I go as an individual (not a company) and ask what exactly? I did a search for "lab test solution", but I get all sorts of results and no clue what type of test to choose. It's complicated. I live in Canada, btw.

Please do not lecture me about the use of diluted sulfuric acid (or recommend elemental sulfur) for blueberry plants. I've been using it for years and it's super useful to keep soil ph down. Better than anything else!


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 26, 2022)

Anything good enough for electrolysis (Lead batteries functions as a kind of reversible electrolysis) will surpass any qualifications for food grade.
Reagent grade is even purer but way to expensive.

People tend to think food grade is clean and pure but for the most part its way poorer quality than anything used in medical or technical applications.

Think about Oxygen. Medical Oxygen seem to come across as pure and clean, but it may have too low purity to run an OxyAcetylen torch for welding properly and not even close to what may be needed for analytical purposes.


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## Lino1406 (Aug 26, 2022)

Reagent, or analytical grade is distilled in glass system so not containing heavy metals. Used battery acid contains lead


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 26, 2022)

True, but not new acid, which he is talking about 

Edit correcting text


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## butcher (Aug 26, 2022)

Man cannot breathe straight oxygen it would burn or destroy our lungs, welding oxygen is not as clean or purified welding oxygen is also too high of a concentration of oxygen for us to breathe safely, we normally breathe air that is about 78% nitrogen gas and 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.033% carbon monoxide, with traces of other gases such as sulfur dioxide, neon, helium, hydrogen, xenon, nitrogen dioxide, iodine, carbon monoxide ammonia...

Medical oxygen which requires a prescription to purchase as far as I understand is basically a highly purified clean and dry form of breathing gas or nitrogen with a higher oxygen content than the air we breathe normally.
from the composition of breathing air or oxygen bottled gas of around 78% nitrogen to 29.9% oxygen O2 to other compositions of medical oxygen or gas for breathing or medical treatments of other compositions for example 60% nitrogen and 40% oxygen, or mixtures of higher concentrations of oxygen along with the nitrogen gas.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 26, 2022)

butcher said:


> Man cannot breathe straight oxygen it would burn or destroy our lungs, welding oxygen is not as clean or purified welding oxygen is also too high of a concentration of oxygen for us to breathe safely, we normally breathe air that is about 78% nitrogen gas and 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.033% carbon monoxide, with traces of other gases such as sulfur dioxide, neon, helium, hydrogen, xenon, nitrogen dioxide, iodine, carbon monoxide ammonia...
> 
> Medical oxygen which requires a prescription to purchase as far as I understand is basically a highly purified clean and dry form of breathing gas or nitrogen with a higher oxygen content than the air we breathe normally.
> from the composition of breathing air or oxygen bottled gas of around 78% nitrogen to 29.9% oxygen O2 to other compositions of medical oxygen or gas for breathing or medical treatments of other compositions for example 60% nitrogen and 40% oxygen, or mixtures of higher concentrations of oxygen along with the nitrogen gas.


Not entirely true

But *man* can not breathe compressed pure oxygen if the pressure surpass appr 8m (25 ft) of water, it will then be toxic.
An oxygen generator produces 95 ish % Oxygen. This can be breathed directly and is also fine for soldering and light welding. 
But for high power welding and cutting it is usually 99+ % 
This concentration has no added benefits for medical use.
But I expect medical Oxygen have more paperwork and possibly certifications.


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## stoneware (Aug 26, 2022)

If your on the West coast try Metalex, located in Richmond B.C.. The company processes lead acid battery's for the lead, antimony, acid and plastic.

(604) 273-5487


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 26, 2022)

stoneware said:


> If your on the West coast try Metslex, located in Richmond B.C.. The company processes lead acid battery's for the lead, antimony, acid and plastic.
> 
> (604) 273-5487


The OP need Sulfuric acid for adjusting soil pH, not reclaim batteries.


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## 4metals (Aug 26, 2022)

Wouldn't it be just safer to use vinegar? Use about an ounce per gallon of water every 2 weeks and you won't have to worry about the dangers of sulfuric acid. 

Long term fix, the year before add a sulfur product to the soil and skip the vinegar water. Have your soil tested to assure you are doing this correctly. whatever state you are in has an extension of the state college system with certified master gardeners. Most counties. have a branch of the master gardeners that can help you.

Whoops, didn't notice you're in Canada. It's possible they have the equivalent service up there. If not PM me, I'm a master gardener in Wayne County PA and I can find you some resources.


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## butcher (Aug 26, 2022)

Medical oxygen can be in high concentrations (almost pure) but medical oxygen as I understand it, is not normally administered in pure form, it is mixed with breathing air to lower the concentration of oxygen content delivered to the patient so as not to poison him or her.,

Breathing pure oxygen for us would be deadly.

Now for divers under atmospheric pressure and also under 25 feet of water pressure and of those with certain medical conditions, this may be different I cannot say, I have no diving or medical training.

For blueberries, I would look at using a salt of sulfuric (which the sulfuric would create with soils anyway) salts of sulfuric acid such as potassium sulfates or bisulfates for higher acidity...


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## 4metals (Aug 26, 2022)

butcher said:


> For blueberries, I would look at using a salt of sulfuric (which the sulfuric would create with soils anyway) salts of sulfuric acid such as potassium sulfates or bisulfates for higher acidity...


Ammonium sulfate is the preferred sulfate for maintaining the pH blueberries love. In fact if you have Hydrangeas that are pink, make the soil acidic, with ammonium sulfate, and they flower in purple. 



butcher said:


> Now for divers under atmospheric pressure and also under 25 feet of water pressure and of those with certain medical conditions, this may be different I cannot say, I have no diving or medical training.


Pure oxygen gets toxic for divers at about 20 feet. In fact when re-breathers were first used in WWII by divers they discovered, much to the dismay of the divers, that pure O2 is toxic and many early re-breather divers didn't come back. However when diving deep to shorten the decompression stops staged bottles of 50% oxygen 50% nitrogen can be used at about 50 feet and pure oxygen for the last deco stop at 10 feet. 

Unique thread, it covers the three things I enjoy most in life, refining, scuba diving and gardening.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 26, 2022)

4metals said:


> Ammonium sulfate is the preferred sulfate for maintaining the pH blueberries love. In fact if you have Hydrangeas that are pink, make the soil acidic, with ammonium sulfate, and they flower in purple.
> 
> 
> Pure oxygen gets toxic for divers at about 20 feet. In fact when re-breathers were first used in WWII by divers they discovered, much to the dismay of the divers, that pure O2 is toxic and many early re-breather divers didn't come back. However when diving deep to shorten the decompression stops staged bottles of 50% oxygen 50% nitrogen can be used at about 50 feet and pure oxygen for the last deco stop at 10 feet.
> ...


You need certification to use Nitrox, at least here in Norway.
I think Padi has such training.


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## 4metals (Aug 26, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> You need certification to use Nitrox, at least here in Norway.
> I think Padi has such training.


Yes you do here in the US as well. I've been a certified diver for 54 years now. When I started NAUI was the big certification agency and the certificate read Basic Scuba. 

I've since graduated to advanced, rescue, nitrox, advanced nitrox, decompression diving, and trimix. Most of them from PADI which here we call Put Another Dollar In. It's deep decompression diving where staged decompression is important. But in reality it's the experience that matters the certifications just allow you to get the bottles filled. And just like refining, it's the experience that matters.


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## stoneware (Aug 26, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> The OP need Sulfuric acid for adjusting soil pH, not reclaim batteries.


Yea I got that.

*Metalex* Products Ltd. is a secondary lead smelting and refining facility located in Richmond, British Columbia, Canada. We're carrying on a company legacy that goes back more than 50 years.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 26, 2022)

4metals said:


> Yes you do here in the US as well. I've been a certified diver for 54 years now. When I started NAUI was the big certification agency and the certificate read Basic Scuba.
> 
> I've since graduated to advanced, rescue, nitrox, advanced nitrox, decompression diving, and trimix. Most of them from PADI which here we call Put Another Dollar In. It's deep decompression diving where staged decompression is important. But in reality it's the experience that matters the certifications just allow you to get the bottles filled. And just like refining, it's the experience that matters.


As in life in general, you can fill your walls with plaques, but the experience is what makes the wheels go around.


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## 1sep1969 (Aug 26, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Anything good enough for electrolysis (Lead batteries functions as a kind of reversible electrolysis) will surpass any qualifications for food grade.
> Reagent grade is even purer but way to expensive.
> 
> People tend to think food grade is clean and pure but for the most part its way poorer quality than anything used in medical or technical applications.
> ...



If that's the case, why does this ACS Grade bottle (https://www.carolina.com/images/product/large/893297.jpg) state "Not for Food or Drug Use"? I read online that Reagent Grade and ACS Grade are suitable for consumption, but why would it state that message on that bottle? Are you 200% confident that battery acid (something like this: https://fortnine.ca/en/yuasa-electrolyte-battery-acid-bottle) is safe for consumption? I see no one is challenging your post, so that's a good sign.


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## 4metals (Aug 26, 2022)

1sep1969 said:


> I read online that Reagent Grade and ACS Grade are suitable for consumption, but why would it state that message on that bottle?


Because most people would never consider consuming sulfuric acid. Even diluted. Sure it is used in foodstuffs but by companies with labs and proper procedures to assure the end product is fit for consumption. But the company puts a label like that on the bottle because it cannot control how someone uses it. So to cover their butt legally it’s a disclaimer to hold them harmless in the event of stupidity. 

And to the same end a member like you whose first post clearly states;


1sep1969 said:


> Just to let you know in advance, I'm an amateur, not into chemistry.


We always advise members to take the safer route and asking someone here to advise you that they are 200% sure that battery acid is safe for consumption might influence you to do something you shouldn’t, and possibly be responsible if you do, is not advisable. You have been given a completely safe option and the proper dosage. If you choose, of your own free will, to use sulfuric acid don’t come crying to the forum when you hurt yourself. 

I rescind my original offer, don’t PM me!


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## 1sep1969 (Aug 26, 2022)

4metals said:


> We always advise members to take the safer route and asking someone here to advise you that they are 200% sure that battery acid is safe for consumption might influence you to do something you shouldn’t, and possibly be responsible if you do, is not advisable. You have been given a completely safe option and the proper dosage. If you choose, of your own free will, to use sulfuric acid don’t come crying to the forum when you hurt yourself.


Ok, I'll mention a few things. I have to water my potted blueberry plants with tap water (no I can't save rainwater) everyday during summer. Ammonium sulfate (1/2tsp per gallon every 2 weeks, no need to use more than that) is not enough to acidify the soil. Elemental sulfur is slow and you have to guess how much to put... Very slow. I know some people use vinegar, but I hadn't good success, and it doesn't neutralize the bicarbonates.

I've diluted battery acid in the past to safe concentration like the ph down they sell at pet stores, so yes, I would gather use that.


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## 4metals (Aug 26, 2022)

There are master gardeners in Canada. Contact them for assistance in your area. 









Atlantic Master Gardeners Association (AMGA), Canada


The Atlantic Master Gardeners Association (AMGA) is a group of Certified Master Gardeners in Atlantic Canada (NB, PEI, NS, & NL). Involved in horticultural education & providing assistance to our respective communities.




www.atlanticmastergardeners.ca





Take a soil sample and send it in for testing. They will give you the proper ammonium sulfate dosage.


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## Alondro (Aug 27, 2022)

Grow the blueberries in a mix of quartz sand and peatmoss. Get a little soil from the edge of a bog if possible to introduce the crucial symbiotic fungi and microbes. Water with distilled water. Fertilize with little high-phosphate fertilizer in the spring before the buds begin to grow. 

I'm from south-central NJ. Blueberries are everywhere here.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 27, 2022)

1sep1969 said:


> Ok, I'll mention a few things. I have to water my potted blueberry plants with tap water (no I can't save rainwater) everyday during summer. Ammonium sulfate (1/2tsp per gallon every 2 weeks, no need to use more than that) is not enough to acidify the soil. Elemental sulfur is slow and you have to guess how much to put... Very slow. I know some people use vinegar, but I hadn't good success, and it doesn't neutralize the bicarbonates.
> 
> I've diluted battery acid in the past to safe concentration like the ph down they sell at pet stores, so yes, I would gather use that.


I’m not sure of the biochemistry inside plants, but most likely the plant will not actually metabolize the Sulfuric/Acetic acid. The acids will push the pH to a level where the solubility of salts and nutrients for the plants are in the comfort zone for that given plant.
The biggest risk may be that the if soil contain heavy metals or other accumulative toxins whith a solubility range suitable for the same pH, the plants may pick them up. 

Battery or ACS acids will not contain metallic ions/salts that will interfere with the process they are intended for.

In my world Sulfuric acid is not for consumption. It has its use in certain food related processes, but not for consumption.


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## stoneware (Aug 27, 2022)

When we were kids we used to go to Burns Bog and pick wild Blueberry's using a hand held picker.

You can purchase concentrated sulfuric and nitric acid from most agricultural supply house's catering to hydroponic greenhouse operations.


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## tsfarley (Aug 27, 2022)

The many amazing things you learn just being a fly on the wall here. Thank you all for the education and discussion. so cool !


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## snoman701 (Aug 27, 2022)

Medical grade oxygen comes from higher up the distillation column than industrial grade oxygen, so it's technically more pure. The oxygen is diluted on administration, as needed for the clinical condition. When you start talking about oxygen concentrators, it is concentrated by passing room air over zeolite. The air coming off an medical grade concentrator measures between 92 and 95% O2. You can breath solely high concentration oxygen for a reasonable period of time (6 hrs IIRC) before toxicosis starts to set in, and it is beneficial on a short term basis for acute hypoxia. 

As for the blueberry plants, what's wrong with natural acidifiers like pine needles or sawdust?


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## 1sep1969 (Aug 27, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> As for the blueberry plants, what's wrong with natural acidifiers like pine needles or sawdust?



Even if they do acidify the soil (doubt it has any significant effect), when you have large potted blueberry plants, you have to water them every day. Otherwise, the soil dries. Watering them every day with tap water rapidly increases the soil ph. In ground, they would require less water, so maybe it works that way. A lot of farmers grow them in containers, and I've heard that they use sulfuric acid to acidify the soil (injecting it in the irrigation).


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 27, 2022)

I would do like 4 Metals said, use Ammonium Sulfate.
It will take longer time to flush out and you have the benefit of Nitrogen fertilizer.
And if you recycle the water it will last even longer.


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## Alondro (Aug 27, 2022)

stoneware said:


> When we were kids we used to go to Burns Bog and pick wild Blueberry's using a hand held picker.
> 
> You can purchase concentrated sulfuric and nitric acid from most agricultural supply house's catering to hydroponic greenhouse operations.
> 
> View attachment 51891


Hmm, those are far-northern species of blueberries. Those we have in NJ are quite different.


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## Lambo (Aug 28, 2022)

4metals said:


> Wouldn't it be just safer to use vinegar? Use about an ounce per gallon of water every 2 weeks and you won't have to worry about the dangers of sulfuric acid.
> 
> Long term fix, the year before add a sulfur product to the soil and skip the vinegar water. Have your soil tested to assure you are doing this correctly. whatever state you are in has an extension of the state college system with certified master gardeners. Most counties. have a branch of the master gardeners that can help you.
> 
> Whoops, didn't notice you're in Canada. It's possible they have the equivalent service up there. If not PM me, I'm a master gardener in Wayne County PA and I can find you some resources.


Lime thats what a lot of people use it comes in powder or pellet form you can get it at your local tractor supply


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## stoneware (Aug 28, 2022)

Lambo said:


> Use lime thats what most farmers use it comes in powder or pellet form and you get it at your local tractor supply farm and feed store.


The OP wishes to acidify the soil for his Blueberry crop, not to sweeten the soil with lime.


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## Yggdrasil (Aug 28, 2022)

Why do you keep on repeating yourself/double posting?
It is against the forum rules.

Edit spelling


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## Lambo (Aug 28, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Why do you keep on repeating yourself/double posting?
> Ut is against the forum rules.


Because seeing how I made myself look really dumb with my response I just figured I would play special Ed dumb who can’t follow rules and who has never used this post before and didn’t realize that when i post and it tells me to wait 10 secs that everytime I tried to repost it it was actually gonna post it that many times. But anyway sorry about the bad advice about the lime I honestly in my head thought I was making my lawn acidic when I spread lime on it until I just went back and researched what characteristics lime had and fell under. So sorry about that bad advice and double sorry about double posting on this forum I honestly don’t think anyone would purposely double or triple post something on purpose it was just me being a newbie. So all apologies. I’ll just be going to go set myself into the time out corner over here and try and get myself straightened out and flying right again. Man im feeling kinda uncomfortable and stupid right now


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## FrugalRefiner (Aug 28, 2022)

No problem. I've deleted the extra posts. Believe it or not, some people do intentionally double post. You may come out of the time out corner now.

Dave


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## Alondro (Aug 28, 2022)

stoneware said:


> The OP wishes to acidify the soil for his Blueberry crop, not to sweeten the soil with lime.


Yeah, lime is calcium oxide and calcium carbonate. ALKALINE, not acid. 

Iron sulfate can be used to acidify safely.


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## stoneware (Aug 28, 2022)

Sulfuric acid in the long run is probably more economical than using iron sulphate.

According to several studies, the soil required for planting *Blueberries* should be between 4.5 *pH* to 5.5 *PH*


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## snoman701 (Aug 29, 2022)

Not necessarily. The problem with using immediately soluble acids is that they wash away. 

My advice of pine straw is wrong, but it brings about the question of why blueberries grow so well in the borreal forrests without anyone adding sulfuric acid. Largely related to the mosses that grow, as well as decomposition of oak leaves, by the fungi living in the forrest.


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## 1sep1969 (Aug 30, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> Not necessarily. The problem with using immediately soluble acids is that they wash away.
> 
> My advice of pine straw is wrong, but it brings about the question of why blueberries grow so well in the borreal forrests without anyone adding sulfuric acid. Largely related to the mosses that grow, as well as decomposition of oak leaves, by the fungi living in the forrest.


Probably because rainwater doesn't raise the ph, and in tap water, the bicarbonates need to be neutralized.


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## Alondro (Aug 30, 2022)

1sep1969 said:


> Probably because rainwater doesn't raise the ph, and in tap water, the bicarbonates need to be neutralized.


Treated tapwater contains all sorts of calcium salts and chlorine. Blueberries hate that. 

Here in NJ, they grow best in moist sandy soil. Quartz sand with lots of iron stain is the ideal.


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## Lambo (Sep 8, 2022)

FrugalRefiner said:


> No problem. I've deleted the extra posts. Believe it or not, some people do intentionally double post. You may come out of the time out corner now.
> 
> Dave


Thank you Dave believe it or not I feel at home here I don’t want to upset anyone. Ive got a question would this be the gold im looking at in thjs nitric acid I’ve been trying to find my lost gold for awhile now and I believe I stumbled upon it again


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## Lambo (Sep 8, 2022)

Is this the gold in nitric on the left?


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## 4metals (Sep 8, 2022)

Lambo said:


> Thank you Dave believe it or not I feel at home here I don’t want to upset anyone. Ive got a question would this be the gold im looking at in thjs nitric acid I’ve been trying to find my lost gold for awhile now and I believe I stumbled upon it again


Lambo, welcome to the forum. 

In trying to keep the forum organized in a way that helps members to find something important to them in the future, we try to encourage members to post in an appropriate thread. What you just added was in a thread about blueberry bushes. (I know this is a gold refining forum but it is what it is!) 

You would have been better off and received more input if you started a thread called something like looking for lost gold and waited for responses. Then, in the future maybe someone can find it from a thread indicative of the content and learn from it. 

Again, welcome.


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## stella polaris (Sep 12, 2022)

I would never eat your berries.....

Just get some low PH mineral, as gravel or smaller fraction, and mix in to the soil. A low pH level soil is low level due to the minerals in the soil. Then you have a long life solution.


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## Tevlon (Sep 13, 2022)

Add more peat to your soil mixture. It’s usually much cheaper than soil so add a lot. You can also buy aluminum sulphate at most garden centres or find something they are selling to change the colour of hydrangeas to blue.


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## lanfear (Sep 30, 2022)

1sep1969 said:


> Ok, I'll mention a few things. I have to water my potted blueberry plants with tap water (no I can't save rainwater) everyday during summer. Ammonium sulfate (1/2tsp per gallon every 2 weeks, no need to use more than that) is not enough to acidify the soil. Elemental sulfur is slow and you have to guess how much to put... Very slow. I know some people use vinegar, but I hadn't good success, and it doesn't neutralize the bicarbonates.
> 
> I've diluted battery acid in the past to safe concentration like the ph down they sell at pet stores, so yes, I would gather use that.


It sounds logical that battery acid is clean acid and water. To top up a battery with water, you would use de ionized water. Then the acid needs to be the same grade.


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