# XRF device recommendation ?



## HAuCl4

A friend and client asked me today about an XRF device. I promised I'd ask around and would recommend some thing to her. She buys gold and silver jewellery.

What do you guys think is a good value device and estimated price?.


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## jimdoc

They cost around $36,000.
I would buy one if I had money to burn,
but I don't so I will stick with acid testing.

Jim


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## jimdoc

Just google Niton XRF for info on them.

Jim


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## nickvc

I posted about xrf guns some time back they were niton guns and if I remember correctly could be bought for around 18000 dollars plus shipping from the UK don't know the spec now but can find out if your friend is interested.


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## HAuCl4

Thanks guys. That price is out of her league and mine.


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## Noxx

Tell her to buy a BMW instead  She'll be much more happy of her purchase.


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## HAuCl4

Noxx said:


> Tell her to buy a BMW instead  She'll be much more happy of her purchase.



No kidding. Maybe an idea is to manufacture and sell them XRF guns...

I was expecting a price less than $100.00 hahaha.


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## Noxx

X-Rays = Expensive


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## nevadatime

I run an XRF for assay purpose. Originally it was bought to replace acid or at least make the process of identification at the counter with the client faster and accurate. It did neither.

#1 you need to tell IT what purity your sample is (sort of defeats the purpose)

#2 it won't penetrate the sample beyond the surface (or maybe a few microns) so gold filled, slver plated... those samples will appear as if they are solid material (terrific for those less experienced or caring buyers)

#3 if you get the PC detector... it won't measure much below 50% purity

#4 if you get Si-PIN detector you will spend $20k+ range but it is much more accurate vs. the PC detector (big bucks)

#5 it works will when YOU know the sample so if you need to get near exact measurement of gu, gd, cu, pt, pd and so on. But unless you assay... why do you need this? (if you are using to buy from the public - this is not necessary)

I sell these machines, by the way, and I talk more of my stores out of them because I refuse to sell them something they don't really need. Instead.. buy a specific gravity scale! We use ours 100x a day and it is super easy and quick for under $1k. Coins, bars, nugget, jewelry... you name it. The on-board computer tells you everything and has little downside (won't work with hollow sample or smaple with stones). I sell these too by-the-way! I'd say get this first and if you think you need assay machine - get the Si-PIN detector and drop $19k on one of our Skyray units. I'd still try and talk you out of it.


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## jimbalaiya

Hi NevadaTime,

Thank you for the post. It kind of answered my question from my other posting. As for gold flakes and gold dust, Is the specific gravity scale applicable? Which brand do you recommend and which model do you use if you don't mind me asking.

BTW, I love your quote at the bottom ! :lol:


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## chawimac

Hello,

My 2 cents.

I buy scrap. The only way to go with scrap is using JSP acid. No stones, and no cheap knock off acids. Use acid directly on the piece with a paper towel. After a couple hundred pieces you can come within 2 karats of actual value.

If you do go for XRF there is only one option, a Fischer XAN120. Its about $38k depending on the software you get. Get the full software. Then you need to drop $2k on standards. Having an XRF without standards is pointless. Your error might be 2% or more. Fischer is the Ferrari of XRF yet affordable. I have 4 Fischers, 1 chinese, and a useless handheld. I am a small operation but I buy about a ton and a half a year, so for me an XRF serves a purpose.

XRF is not for buying jewelry. Not only is it a waste of money but it is not practical. XRF takes 60 seconds for a decent read so its not practical for any volume. Also, its not portable. If it is, its junk. Most error in XRF comes from the user, not the machine. I have heard XRF is more accurate on higher karats, not true if you know what you are doing and have lots of reference standards.

I use XRF to buy molten stuff. 50 grams plus of sketchy stuff or mined/panned gold I melt, take a pin sample, roll it flat and XRF 3 times on 3 spots for at least 60 seconds. 99.98% i'm on the money.

XRF has its uses and will teach you a lot about what you are buying. It also has its limitations. Get a good machine, the cheap chinese machines will cost you many times over.

PS, I have no interest in JSP or Fischer


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## Palladium

I got everything else, but what is JSP acid?


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## chawimac

JSP? Really. Sold by "Jewelry Supply Products," its a US standard. I mention it because I, being cheap have bought acid from other companies. They suck.

Acids last maybe a year, so you should always test to make sure they are still good.


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## goldenchild

So is icp out?


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## goldsilverpro

chawimac said:


> JSP? Really. Sold by "Jewelry Supply Products," its a US standard. I mention it because I, being cheap have bought acid from other companies. They suck.
> 
> Acids last maybe a year, so you should always test to make sure they are still good.



You have no idea what you are talking about and I seem to smell a little spam going on.

Nitric is nitric and hydrochloric is hydrochloric, no matter where you buy it. The only differences are purity and strength and you pay for what you get. For refining, only a fool would pay for the highest quality. Single acids, like nitric or hydrochloric, essentially last forever at full strength, if they are kept sealed in the proper container in a cool spot. That BS about JSP being a US standard is just that, BS. With some exceptions, the least knowledgeable people concerning chemicals are those in the jewelry industry, in my experience. They are jewelers, not chemists. Whoever JSP is, they certainly don't manufacture these acids. They buy them from a lab supply or chemical company (the same exact places where we buy most of them) and resell them.


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## Genesis

nevadatime said:


> I run an XRF for assay purpose. Originally it was bought to replace acid or at least make the process of identification at the counter with the client faster and accurate. It did neither.
> 
> #1 you need to tell IT what purity your sample is (sort of defeats the purpose)
> 
> #2 it won't penetrate the sample beyond the surface (or maybe a few microns) so gold filled, slver plated... those samples will appear as if they are solid material (terrific for those less experienced or caring buyers)
> 
> #3 if you get the PC detector... it won't measure much below 50% purity
> 
> #4 if you get Si-PIN detector you will spend $20k+ range but it is much more accurate vs. the PC detector (big bucks)
> 
> #5 it works will when YOU know the sample so if you need to get near exact measurement of gu, gd, cu, pt, pd and so on. But unless you assay... why do you need this? (if you are using to buy from the public - this is not necessary)
> 
> I sell these machines, by the way, and I talk more of my stores out of them because I refuse to sell them something they don't really need. Instead.. buy a specific gravity scale! We use ours 100x a day and it is super easy and quick for under $1k. Coins, bars, nugget, jewelry... you name it. The on-board computer tells you everything and has little downside (won't work with hollow sample or smaple with stones). I sell these too by-the-way! I'd say get this first and if you think you need assay machine - get the Si-PIN detector and drop $19k on one of our Skyray units. I'd still try and talk you out of it.



Very good pointers you posted here Nevada Time. All 5 tips are correct. The manufactor has to calibrate the gun to your specific needs and that is not applicatable to different types of ore bodies.
i too was looking at the XRF for prospecting before I knew anything about them. A sales rep called me and we talked about the applications. To my suprise the rep talked me out of it and thankful for that.
I would be interested in your specific gravity scale. Are you in the Reno area?


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## jessica

Our company is specialized in the manufacturing and exporting XRF gold analyzer for decades. So far we have two models, XRA 1000 and high-end XRA 3200 gold analyzer. The testing results of our machine can compare with those famous brands, like Niton and Fischer, but with much cheaper price and the results can be as accurate and perfect as the Fire Assay method. And our gold analyzer is only designed for jewelers who buy or sell gold. So I think our gold analyzer can meet the requirement of your client to the utmost.


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## QuickshotXRF

Quickshot XRF offers both handheld and desktop analyzers with a large focus on identification of gold and additional precious metals. 

Regarding NevadaTimes points - 
1. The software that we offer does not require a user know anything about the sample; our karat matching function will determine that and results will show soon after.

2. Yes, this is a drawback from XRF and I am surprised at the number of sales organizations that claim more...it's not right. Again, our karat matching function can help but the only way to be 100% is to scratch/cut and test.

3. The PC detector (proportional counter) should really only be used for coating thickness measurements but it is a lower cost option and many companies market it as a great solution for gold buyers - but its not. It is only good for yellow gold with four constituents.

4. Very true. Much better return on investment.

5. Refer to #1 above.

XRF is not for every gold buyer but when the quantity purchased is enough or uneducated employees are buying, it helps and will return the value.


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## Dan Dement

Guys,

I am a newbie of this forum but am on my second SG scale and third XRF machine. I am platinum & palladium jewelry manufacture who buys well over a million a year from the Public. We melt almost every purchase and pay off the XRF analysis. I think I have tried almost every method in determining the gold finess in house with the exception of fire assay. One of the real interesting facts is the least gold purity is in the middle of a sawn in half ingot. Pin samples, drilling with drill, drilling with end mill, cuttings from band saw, making triangle bars, making thick bars, specific gravity testing are a few of the different methods all double checked with the latest XRF machine that I wanted to pay for which is $38,000. My payouts with my refiner is in agreement. The ability to have experimenting with all the different methods and get accurate readings made me understand the difficulties and variances that refiners face. For me, the understanding that the center of the bar is about 2% less than the exterior is very eye opening! 

The ability to accurately determine the purity of given amount of gold is a mathimatic average at best. The truth is no amount of stirring can overcome the stratification process which makes the inside less pure than the outside. The longer the cooling process takes place in the ingot mold, the more the difference. Immediate quenching helps the difference smaller. We try to quench the 500 gram plus bar in pickle in an old large crockpot. A $200 craftsman bandsaw with a good metal blade and a great XRF will sure educate you more than complaining how your Refiner is ripping you off!

Dan


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## Noxx

Why have you never tried fire assays ? They are extremely accurate when performed correctly and can be done all year long with less than $10k of equipment.



> I am platinum & palladium jewelry manufacture who buys well over a million a year from the Public.



It is in my opinion that you _wasted_ a lot of money in various testing equipment but for what purpose ? I think it's not worth it considering the relatively low volume you're handling (approx. 11ozT / week).

Your best bet would be to melt, drill or pin sample your bars and send your samples to assay labs. You can get assays for $40 or less these days...


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## Dan Dement

Noxx,

According to your profile you are 22 years old and I appauld your eagerness. I am at a different point I'm my life at 62 and certainly have a little experience in my favor. I have a successful Jewelry business and a number of employees as well as several family members who join me in a family business. We pay a very straight foreword 82to85% of spot on gold and a little less on silver. We have several induction melters that can quickly melt gold and a separate machine for PD & Pt. My latest XRF can give me an accurate reading in 20 seconds and I can do separations in 10 seconds. We make a quick guessament and make the customer an offer or we give them the option to melt the gold and pay them an exact payment like a refiner. When my local refiner is paying me the amount I know to be accurate. How, I have over 30 master metals that I have double and triple checked. I have the same setup that the refiners use except slightly smaller. I believe in turning the money. We cash out at about 500-600 grams several times a week or sometimes everyday. 

Gold buying does not figure into my business plan in anyway. We reply on a small amount of Craig's List ads and word of mouth for my advertising. I can pay more because I do not guess. I also have two Alpha Mirage SG scales that are very close to my XRF machine to double check my reports. For me, with latest setup and the fact that I have my process down, we get an accurate return on my metal. I am no scientist just an old guy mostly self taught from trail & error but have a few friends who help me. Of course these friends own a rare earth refiner who has 6 PHD's and one who worked for One the Biggest Pt Refiners in the world. Happens to have a mega buck Mass Spectrometers that goes to parts per million! So, I get my processes reviewed by true Pro's who keep me on track. Funny thing about some of us Old Guys, we count pretty good and get by the help of some friends. By the way, my new machine is the Quickshot 295 x which is first one they have delivered. I don't even know if they have it on their Website yet. Their President came down and we really got it dialed in and it is agreeing with the $100,000 XRF that my refiner uses. In the four cash outs I have gotten, we were dead on. 

I appreciate your opinion that I have wasted my money. I could say sometime tasteless but I will not. I am happy to encourage young people to grow and learn. If I used your figure of 11oz a week is about $250,000 profit a year on about $10,000 cash capital and $50,000 in expenses which of course are a 100% write-off. I will settle for that on top of my other income from my store, real estate, and other investments. We don't want to go into the diamonds and other things that I buy off the street. All I can say is that I appreciate the fact you think I waste my Money but again, it is my money which I have earned and paid taxes on.

Regards,

Dan


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## Noxx

I didn't mean to sound harsh or anything... I should have explained myself more.

I don't want to discourage you at all or anything, welcome on this forum 8) 

I am surely young and surely still have a lot to learn!


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## Dan Dement

Noxx,

I welcome your zeal, input, and passion. Your in Canada and I am in Texas. I have used Gold Buying as a method to promote honest business methods. Funny thing: Every Gold buyer says they pay the most! Nobody promotes the science side of the business and fair and honest transactions in our area but us. We don't advertise much and rely on the Old Word Of Mouth process. Lots of our customers remake their jewelry into custom designs. We manufacture around 8 bigger rings a week mostly in Palladium. We sell lots of bigger fine cut GIA stones. Customers come in, we give them a guesstament on their metal and tell them we will remove the stones, melt all the metal, run two different analysis by XRF & S.G. Which usually is more than our guess. If they agree we buy the metal at 82 --85% and write them a check on a bank 50 yards away. We sell our metal when we have $10-12000. To a local refiner at 98%. We have refined our process were we agree with Our local refiner. We have good equipment and process. This whole process did not happen by accident and I am on my third XRF in 18 months. My new Quickshot 295x is their latest and greatest. I can set the readings for 10 seconds and do separations with great accuracy. My 20 second readings are dead on to my refiners $100,000 tri reading machine which takes three minutes.

I have just put together a 12 unit purchase of the latest and greatest Alpha Mirage SG machine in a group purchase. Just have gotten through Beta Testing an Induction Wand Melter that can melt several kilo's a couple of minutes from a cold strait. When warm, the time is much less. You can turn the wand 180 degrees for full recovery of the melted gold. Pour in an ingot mold and immediately drop into a hot pickle crockpot to remove scale. Just like the refiners but much quicker within full view of he customer. Not the usual method but works for us. 

Old guy that is still learning. I greatly appreciate this new forum and hope to try to contribute in a positive way. Lots for me to learn but always happy to share! 

Dan


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## Westerngs

Noxx,

The reason most people prefer XRF over fire assay is the speed. With XRF, you can pay on the metal within minutes, and the training and knowledge is probably less than you need for fire assay. Not to mention XRF does not need acids (except for the scratch/acid tests to check for plated items).

A fire assay, on the other hand, can be done in as little as 2-4 hours, but that still does not compare to minutes with XRF.

If you don't do the fire assay yourself and send it out, you are looking at days.

I will always prefer fire assay, but there is something to be said for XRF done by good, well calibrated equipment by someone that knows what they are doing.


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## Dan Dement

I don't think a Fire Assay is going to tell every metal you are dealing with either. When you manufacture, everything else is Very Important. 20 seconds is very hard to beat! I have seen 9 metals in some golds. I am not on my third XRF in less than two years because I don't like them 

Dan


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## GoldBiter

XRF is not a technology where you can compare "apples to apples" very easily. There are major differences in how XRF is employed (hardware - including detectors and x-ray sources, software and calibration technology), differences in the companies that manufactures them, and of course the type of support and maintenance required for their continued use.

Quickshot is a US label/distributor for a Chinese company called Skyray, who build decent systems and have done well in the market due to their comparatively low cost. Fischer, based in Germany, is a very well known quality manufacturer of mid-to-high end equipment that has been supporting the precious metal industry for many years. Thermo Fisher Scientific makes high-end laboratory XRF equipment, with XRF being only one of many technologies they employ. These companies as well as many, many others often employ a type of calibration that require standards to build known spectral "signatures" to function correctly. It can be a very time consuming and costly process, but when done and maintained properly, can provide very good results.

Niton is actually a product name for portable XRF systems manufactured by Thermo Fisher Scientific. Niton pioneered taking XRF to the average lay-person by making it simple to use while offering excellent accuracy and speed. The calibration technology is called fundamental parameters (or FP), which is a standard-less calibration meaning that there is no need for the user to build their own calibrations based on known standards. It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay. There are a few other companies outside of the Niton products that offer systems with this type of calibration.

I recommend that anyone considering XRF do their homework and not rely solely on blog posts to make their decision since it entirely depends on what you are trying to achieve. For instance do you have the time and resources available to build your own calibrations, or do you want a standardless calibration that provides immediate results? Most companies will provide on-site demonstrations of their equipment to show how they would work in YOUR business. Test as many as you can, similar as you would test drive a car before making a purchase. Only then can you make an informed decision on the proper investment. What I can say is that XRF is fast replacing the acid test as the method of choice since the errors involved acid tests can be a big liability for anyone doing any significant amount of business in the world of precious metals. 

Regardless of the direction you take, I've learned that you cannot remove the human element from the process - you must still use your head and experience in making a proper decision since there are always sophisticated thieves looking to take your hard-earned money!


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## Dan Dement

Gold biter,

I am on my second Alfa Mirage SG machine and my third XRF from Quickshot. I keep upgrading and selling the older machines to friends, the Alfa Mirage scale is a Brand new model which I put in a order for 12 units. My AM is accurate on melted bars to about .2 tenth's meaning 56.5 could run 56.3 to 56.7%. the newest XRF is very accurate and I get matching and accurate readings in 20 seconds. By accurate, I mean I average 4 readings from the corners on top and bottom and average. If the readings are close, I cut the bar in half and check the center. I then average the three and I am usually dead on what I am paid by NTR. This payout is within .2 from the SG. I cash out a couple of times a week and for the last 21/2weeks, I am running with $20 on $10,000 pls payouts. 

Funny thing, least purity is dead center of the well mixed, quick quenched in pickle bars. If you got the toys, check it for yourself.

Dan


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## HAuCl4

GoldBiter said:


> It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay.


No. It doesn't even rival the accuracy of a 30 minute torch assay.


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## HAuCl4

Dan Dement said:


> Just have gotten through Beta Testing an Induction Wand Melter that can melt several kilo's a couple of minutes from a cold strait. When warm, the time is much less.
> Dan


I'd love to see a picture or video of this melter in action.


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## GoldBiter

HAuCl4 said:


> GoldBiter said:
> 
> 
> 
> It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay.
> 
> 
> 
> No. It doesn't even rival the accuracy of a 30 minute torch assay.
Click to expand...


Have you done comparative testing? I agree that when fire assay is performed by a skilled person, the results are very repeatable. However, I have seen more often that not if you send samples out to different assayers from the same bar, you will get different results. If great care is not taken in the process, you will get errors. I'm not saying that XRF can replace fire assay, nor do I recommend it, but the results track very well. If you need a fast non-destructive analysis, XRF cannot be beat in the hands of a moderately skilled user.


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## HAuCl4

GoldBiter said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GoldBiter said:
> 
> 
> 
> It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay.
> 
> 
> 
> No. It doesn't even rival the accuracy of a 30 minute torch assay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you done comparative testing? I agree that when fire assay is performed by a skilled person, the results are very repeatable. However, I have seen more often that not if you send samples out to different assayers from the same bar, you will get different results. If great care is not taken in the process, you will get errors. I'm not saying that XRF can replace fire assay, nor do I recommend it, but the results track very well. If you need a fast non-destructive analysis, XRF cannot be beat in the hands of a moderately skilled user.
Click to expand...

Of course I have done testing. XRF is 2 orders of magnitude more inaccurate than a standard fire assay. I'm too old to debate facts. Believe what you will.


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## goldsilverpro

Dan,

No offense, but I think you are a gadget junkie.


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## Dan Dement

GSP,

No offense taken! I know I am a gadget Junkie! 

However, a couple of facts to go along with your 100% correct observation: 
1. I am a finacially successful gadget junkie who takes technology and makes money with it and the Government in their wisdom, allows me to write off my gadgets from my profits.
2. I sometimes take conventional wisdom and prove it wrong! IE: if you ain't the Lead Dog the view never changes,
3. I am a Geezer but appreciate the technology. I am not arguing that a fire assay is the most accurate. I find it very funny that I take a 300 gram bar, cut in half, run state of the art tests on it and nobody believes the strange results. 
4. I step on people's toes but try to always tell the truth.
5. Life is still fun for me and I enjoy finding new ways of making money.

Dan


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## goldsilverpro

Lots of geezers on the forum. I know I sure am one. 

With fire assay, I can hold the final gold in my hand. I can visually see it and I can plop it on the scale. If the samples are right, the answer will never be less than what it weighs. I can live with that. With XRF, I just get a number that I am never 100% sure of. Too iffy for me. I'll never change. If I have a choice between speed and accuracy, I'll take accuracy every time.


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## Dan Dement

GSP,

I just wish wisdom came with age! I believe that are are in the same tunnel but different ends. I buy gold 4-5 times everyday along with three other guys. It's like arguing which more accurate? An MRI, Catscan, or an autopsy? Just depends if your patient or the doctor? From your viewpoint, you are 100% correct. Big bars, well mixed, pull them pin samples, and fire assay it. If your the guy writing the check, you want it to be right or you are broke!

Me, I got about two minutes to make an informed decision! I am the guy trying to clean the septic tank in a white suit. Everybody says they pay more! Every refiner pays 98% or more! Now, maybe I am just stupid but I can't run my business on that type of margin. Me, I just try to figure out the truth. The truth for me, is the facts I can produce with my two old eyes and my two old hands. I don't walk into the Bank and throw a wad of money and say put it into my account. In my situation, I have to come up with a quick way to come up with the money amount. I just paid almost $20,000 to cut my time from 1:20 to 20sec. And it really was worth it. I don't like the handheld machines, anybody ever heard of radiation called Xrays? At the hospital, you wear a lead apron! At least mine is enclosed in a box! My guys would drop the handheld in two weeks. This ain't no $300 iPhone! I need to pick out he trace elements, is a handheld going to pick out a 9 element gold? 

Well, the same way the consumers don't trust the gold buyers, the Gold Buyers don't trust the Refiners. Sure to heck puzzles me when knowledgable honorable experts don't come up with the same answers I do! Yes, it probably me but I must say, I believe I am correct than 99.9 % of the other guys or I would not be getting the checks that I receive. 

Not stopping my experiments and not backing off. Just accumulating and busy as heck in my real business! Crazy times and sure reminds me of the 80' except instead of 18% interest we have 0.8 interest. I guess we all are in favor of the Gold Standard coming back. I bought gas for my own car for $.18 per gallon. The world is crazy and lots of people are going to get screwed. 

A Geezer complaining!

Dan


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## GoldBiter

Handhelds work great, they are safe, and have been proven safe for decades. You can't compare medical xrays to handheld XRF; It's like comparing 5" deck guns on a Navy destroyer to to a Nerf ball gun, so don't let the benchtop guys scare you otherwise. You can get more radiation exposure getting on an airplane or living in Denver CO than you would from consistent, heavy use of one of these instruments. I would bet anything that there are way more injuries coming from the use of acid or fire assay ... or even a screwdriver for that matter.

And yes, the good handheld systems can do many more than 9 elements simultaneously.

As with anything, purchasing a tool depends on how you intend to use it. Handheld XRF isn't for everyone, but there are few arguments against them that hold any water when you truly understand their capabilities and where they are applied successfully. Just ask the hundreds of people/companies that use these instruments every day who will cut your arm off if you ever try to take it away from them.


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## Dan Dement

Gold biter,

I am a newbie here and don't have dog in the fight but from the way you talk, perhaps do you sell handhelds?

Dan


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## GoldBiter

Dan Dement said:


> I am a newbie here and don't have dog in the fight but from the way you talk, perhaps do you sell handhelds?



I don't sell handhelds, but I do work for a company that manufacturers all types of analytical laboratory equipment including both benchtop and portable XRF. All instruments have their place depending on what you want to achieve, and what your skill level is. I'm a huge XRF fan and will argue its merits until I'm blue in the face. As far as benchtop vs handheld, make the choice depending on what works for you in your business. Just don't believe everything you hear and make a sound judgement based on facts - not stories or what other companies may tell you based on their biased opinions to try and sell their particular piece of equipment. For me, safety is a huge issue and when I hear rumor-mongering being done by some companies for their own benefit, it does everyone a disservice.


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## Dan Dement

Goldbiter,

Again, I am a newbie here and LOTS of information is not shown as in other forums. So, if I understand things is that you WORK for a manufacturer that makes XRF along with other things but DON't actually sell them. So all the cards are on the table, I buy lots of equipment, use lots of equipment, make friends with lots of equipment manufacturers, and even Test some of the new toys, but do NOT own, make money, or have any financial interest oher than trying to use try products to make me money! I do have a network of other guys on other forums that I share my findings with. If you have access to the magazine, Jewelers Circular Keystone, there was an article that quoted me on several of related toys. Nothing hidden, no commissions, no smoke & mirrors here!

I like XRF's also or I would not be on my third one. I would be interessted in buying a Handheld if it's near the accuracy and speed of my current machine. We get busy and while some will say I am a mean SOB, I am not a cheap SOB! One of my son in law's is a Physician, and he has concerns of the handheld radiation risks. Sometimes my guys are a little stupid and do things they really should not be doing. Yes, lots of hazards in the jewelry business. . Guys with guns, people trying to rip you off, acids, gases, Bankers, IRS, and lots of other unnice people! So, how much Radiation does your gun emit and how long is the exposure to get a reading! Has there been studies done on this hazard. It may be low but cyandide in low doses can kill you too. I am concerned about extended doses as I know my stationary machine has to have the lid closed before it will operate.

How about dropping? Any warrenty? Would you guys be up to a heads up comparison ? You said that you had a handheld that would do 9 metals. How much is it? How long do you have to hold steady to get an accurate reading. If you saw my first tests, could I get similar readings on a smaller 300 gram piece. I am always interested in a new toy but it's got to deliver!!

Thanks,
Dan


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## nickvc

Dan I can tell you from the experience of those that have hand held Nitons that if you drop them it's an expensive accident and I'd be fairly certain that warranties won't cover dropping or any other misuse of them. It can be a great advantage to be able to show the results to customers and I'm sure if I was buying gold in quantity from either trade or public I'd have purchased one years ago but I'd still want fire assays not xrf readings to buy bars....unless the machine was set to read low :roll:


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## Dan Dement

Nick,

Thanks for the reply. Again, being a Newbie here, you really don't know who you are talking to and their point of view. Again, I am search of truth, science, and facts to learn. Lots depend on agenda and what end of the gold tunnel you are on. Me, I am at the beginning of the tunnel and do not make my living off of buying gold. I want to tell the truth in both buying & selling. I have a 2-5 minute window to learn the facts before I write a check! Consumers or sellers of gold deserve not to be ripped off and gold buyers have to make a profit as well as refiners! Crazy week with gold taking a "correction" of almost $100 in a day. As a side note, I have sold thee 3 Carat diamonds this week. Sure reminds me of the 80's for us Geezer 's Club guys.

I would be very interested to do a "XRF" comparison. It's like trying to have the fastest computer today! You are never going to win! With me at least, if your selling something, say so! I am a buyer! If it's better for my needs, I will buy it but I want to be sure it is what you say it is. No BS, no smoke & mirrors! 

I am hammered in my real business but going back to my real purpose, the truth from my viewpoint! I want to know why the inside of my 300 gram bars is less pure than the outside! If that is the way it is, that's fine. I want to be treated fairly to both the people ibuy from and the people I sell too. I appreciate the knowledge and experience of the admin's, who moderate and share there experience and there point of view. It takes lots of 300 gram bars to make the Hugh bars that the refiners deal with but I count the thousands not the millions. I need to accurate!

Thanks for the reply,

Dan


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## Dan Dement

Nick,

Everyone including me is looking for the Easy Button! in my two year experience in buying gold, every method can be fooled. I have seen the stainless, heavy rhodium plated heavy chain that would fool earlier less expensive machine. I have purchased a small football sized 20 + plus karat hollow elephant covered with emerald , rubies, and sapphires that I would have bet was lead filled but wasn't. Thing was so large, it would not fit into my XRF or SG machine. I have yet to see a solid items that will fool the SG & XRF. I think I could come up with this unusual combination but when you throw melting as a third component, it's fairly fool proof. I have heard of tungsten filled gold coins but have not never seen one. I would be interested in purchasing one to have for testing purposes if anybody has one! 

By the way, the Gold Elephant was not lead filled but was a nine metal gold over 20K gold probally from the 1890's. Hate to have melted it and a second one from the same guy about a year later but not something I want to guess about. I am purchasing a larger bandsaw to continue my experiments. I have had difficulties with the blades and have had some custom made. I am also improving my gold dust recovery system as in theory, this is a true cross section average. What ever method used meaning fire assay or XRF is only as accurate as the sample anaylzed and I am still finding the dead center to be less pure. I am going to see if the larger the amount has an effect on the results. 

Onward thru the Fog in search of my idea of the truth!

Dan


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## nickvc

Dan just a silly thought reference your search for an answer as to why the bars assay seems to vary from the outer surface to the centre. After you cut your bar in half buff the surface and then give it a light polish this should remove any drag through of metals from the cutting. I'm not sure if it will have any effect but it might be worth a try to remove one possible cause from the list, it sure is a mystery to me why your getting those results, if GSP, 4metals or any other of the leading lights of the forum can't give an answer I'm sure I can't, keep us informed of your progress.


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## Dan Dement

Nick,

I appreciate the wise consul & time of the more learned and administrators. I had a nice long talk with one today and I as I thought, the solidification and straification are the culprits. It seems that this has been a little inside knowledge not shared by many which I stumbled across. Seems that the pin sample method can vary also which has been my findings also. I will just continue my little experimentsto better understand the ins & outs of the boom as long as it continues.

Dan


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## GoldBiter

Dan Dement said:


> Would you guys be up to a heads up comparison?



Dan,

I'm sure one of our sales guys would be happy to give you an onsite demo so you can make a comparison. We also provide all sorts of radiation safety training to give you satisfaction that the instruments are safe to use. So we don't clog this forum, I will send you a private email and I'll assist you in setting something up. You are of course welcome to post the results of your tests here if others are interested.


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## Dan Dement

Jeff,

Just emailed you all the information and look forward to hearing from your guy to set up a demo! Don't make a special trip as I am three weeks in my new machine and IRS is going to nail me this year. I would be more than happy to consider purchasing a hand held if it is safe & accurate! 

Thanks for the reply and look forward to a heads up. I promise to give it a honest comparison.

Dan


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## goldsilverpro

Am I misinterpreting this or is this whole thing is going to end up as a big sales pitch to sell XRF equipment? If so, Dan, you are so gone.


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## Dan Dement

My relationship with Quickshot is simple: They sell me equipment and offer technical help & I buy it. Would I buy another machine to help in my gold buying yes but I have made it clear, I just bought my third machine and until after Tax time, I ain't buying nothing. My real business is very good which being a custom jeweler and I have sold every big diamond I have. I am looking to buy stones over 3.00 carats. If you recall, I have never tried to hide who or what I am. In this forum, there no profiles to see who people really are and what their real expertise and training is based on. 

I have looked at handheld machines over three ago. I have expressed my concerns over the safety issues of handhelds and I already have had an extended audit by OSHA. If anything, GB is the person was hiding his cards and all mine are on the table. So, if you want to kick me out, investigate me, and IF anything I have said is not 100% please kick my behind out of here! I would prefer to give the guy a deposit, have him run a credit report on me, check out my references and send me the machine for a week or so and let me test drive the thing.

I appreciate the time and expertise of the guru's and admin's here bit we are at different ends of the tunnel. From my experiments, I found out that no matter how well gold is mixed.. it's going to straitify or Solidificate and form different purifies in a solid bar. When you run pin samples, you can have 1 to 1 1/2 percent differences from one end to another. If you are running samples no matter which method, is this really not an important fact? I had a very nice conversation the other day with a Guru and he told me that that is very near the simple truth. Health issues are certainly another factor here with the handhelds. I am going to get several radiation badges like they have the hospitals and try to borrow a radiation meter, to truly test the safety levels of these guns. Several companies sell XRF machines and most sell tabletop and handhelds, me I like to be sure of things and not take salesmen's word for things. This is not my first rodeo!

A couple of questions: In the US, a couple of people who do Fire Assays? With FA's being your standard, Who can you buy 7-8 metal 14kt -18kt standards? 

Dan


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## GoldBiter

goldsilverpro said:


> Am I misinterpreting this or is this whole thing is going to end up as a big sales pitch to sell XRF equipment? If so, Dan, you are so gone.


GSP;

I don't see any sales pitch whatsoever, so I think your comment is adversarial and inappropriate. There are many other ways you could state your concern in this case other than threatening someone that has a lot to add to this forum. Like any forum, members here should be free to express opinions on equipment while refraining from sales pitches so it doesn't turn into a marketplace. I work in the field of XRF (which I openly admitted), and Dan in the field of precious metals. We had a good debate on the merits of different types of equipment and took it off-line so we could talk more freely and openly so as not to disturb the forum. I think the debate provided some useful information for those that choose to follow this thread.

My question to you is how you view your signature as not being a sales pitch? ...



goldsilverpro said:


> GoldSilverPro's Book For Sale


I have no problem with anyone trying to make a buck in this world, but maybe you should practice what you preach.


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## Lou

Dan's the real deal. I think GSP thought the back and forth was a convoluted sales pitch and that you two were on the same "team" with the purpose of selling XRF equipment. I don't think that's the case.


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## goldsilverpro

Dan,

I reread everything and I did misinterpret the situation. Please accept my apology. And, if Lou says you're the real deal, you're the real deal. I am interested in your research and think it will be valuable. I am glad you're on the forum. You were right, the other guy was the fox-in-the-henhouse.



GoldBiter said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Am I misinterpreting this or is this whole thing is going to end up as a big sales pitch to sell XRF equipment? If so, Dan, you are so gone.
> 
> 
> 
> GSP;
> 
> I don't see any sales pitch whatsoever, so I think your comment is adversarial and inappropriate. There are many other ways you could state your concern in this case other than threatening someone that has a lot to add to this forum. Like any forum, members here should be free to express opinions on equipment while refraining from sales pitches so it doesn't turn into a marketplace. I work in the field of XRF (which I openly admitted), and Dan in the field of precious metals. We had a good debate on the merits of different types of equipment and took it off-line so we could talk more freely and openly so as not to disturb the forum. I think the debate provided some useful information for those that choose to follow this thread.
> 
> My question to you is how you view your signature as not being a sales pitch? ...
> 
> 
> 
> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> GoldSilverPro's Book For Sale
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no problem with anyone trying to make a buck in this world, but maybe you should practice what you preach.
Click to expand...


Although they aren't set in stone, there are some general rules we moderators tend to follow concerning advertising. 

(1) Anyone pushing a commercial product or service in the text of a post can only do it in the Refiners, Buyers, Assayers, etc. Category. These products or services usually must have something to do with PMs.
(2) The signature is different. I allow advertising links in them if, and only if, they are PM related or peripheral things like base metals. If you look around, you'll see quite a few of these. When people put links for something totally unrelated, like hair-care products, they and their IP are usually banned immediately.

Please note that, as far as my advertising goes, I have followed these rules to a tee. I can never remember pushing my book in the text of any post unless it was done in the proper category. My ad in my signature is definitely PM related.

After re-reading your 6 posts, I feel you have broken rule (1). Not severely, but you're definitely on the cusp. Consider this a warning.

You should have reread my post before insulting me. I qualified my statement by saying, "Am I misinterpreting this...". I found that I was misinterpreting it and apologized. And, I said that I would ban Dan *IF* all this were a ploy to sell XRF equipment. It wasn't and I won't.

How dare you lecture me? You're here for one obvious purpose - to promote and sell XRF equipment. The info you're providing is interesting but, considering the source, it is biased and self-serving.

In the 5 years I've been here, I can't remember demanding an apology from anyone but, in this case, I am making an exception. Think about this and PM me with your apology. If I haven't heard from you by Thursday, 3/8/12, 2PM CST, you are gone.


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## Dan Dement

GSP,

Thanks for the apology! I accept it and know you were looking out for the best of the Forum. I know I come across aggressive which is code for A**Hole sometimes and really don't mean to be. When I do, it's just the Old Diamond Man coming out in me. I will try to take a fresh outlook on things. I am a serious "gadget freak"and do try to find the latest and greatest equipment if I think it can make me money. I have good relationships with most of the jewelry equipment manufacturers. Not so great in the Science Dept but fairly good at making things work and very good at understanding a dollar. Open exchange of ideas is what makes a Forum a good place to learn. I called out GBiter figuring he had something to do with Equipment. IMHO, I find nothing wrong with it but I think sellers of equipment need to identify themselves as such. Me, I not selling anything and if anything, am a buyer and tester of toys. GB & I have had a couple of emails since and I have told him that I am not an immediate buyer but always happy to look and compare. I am less than a month with my newest XRF and with what happened to gold today, it's going to be interesting. I am not a "Gold Bug" and don't think it is going to 2000 anytime soon. However, I am the worst stock picker in the world and certainly no financial guru but no doomsday advocate either. w
Thanks for your time & effort. I will continue my little experiments and will report for peer review. Truth is, if we all were sitting around drinking an adult beverage, We all could be friends.

Peace,
Dan


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## GoldBiter

goldsilverpro said:


> After re-reading your 6 posts, I feel you have broken rule (1). Not severely, but you're definitely on the cusp. Consider this a warning.
> 
> You should have reread my post before insulting me. I qualified my statement by saying, "Am I misinterpreting this...". I found that I was misinterpreting it and apologized. And, I said that I would ban Dan *IF* all this were a ploy to sell XRF equipment. It wasn't and I won't.
> 
> How dare you lecture me? You're here for one obvious purpose - to promote and sell XRF equipment. The info you're providing is interesting but, considering the source, it is biased and self-serving.
> 
> In the 5 years I've been here, I can't remember demanding an apology from anyone but, in this case, I am making an exception. Think about this and PM me with your apology. If I haven't heard from you by Thursday, 3/8/12, 2PM CST, you are gone.



GSP,

I don't need to send you a PM to apologize ... I will do it publicly here: I in no way meant to offend, insult or lecture you. If I did so, please accept my apologies. I'm not doing this out of fear of getting booted from this forum since it really wouldn't bother me; I do it out of understanding how things can be misunderstood and that life is too short to have petty arguments. I was simply coming to the defense of Dan, who I felt had a great deal of experience as was not breaking any rules. I saw a double standard, but I understand now that signatures are not covered under the general rules of engagement. I guess I could change my signature, but don't want to be blatant about my allegiances and come across as a salesman. 

Obviously I do promote XRF, but don't deserve to be treated like a 2nd class citizen or spoken down to due to this fact. I understand you've been in this industry a long time, and I've been in the field of XRF quite a while as well, with precious metals being a primary interest of mine for quite some time. I've traveled all over the world visiting refineries, goldsmiths, jewelers, cash-for-gold companies, pawnbrokers, etc. and while I feel I have much to learn from forums such as these, I also feel I have much to contribute. I promote the virtues of XRF, and you want to sell your book ... if questions are directed at either of those subjects, should we not be allowed to reply? I try very hard not to be biased, and if I come across as so, call me out on it ... but please do not threaten me as I generally don't react well. This could be a considered a personality flaw by many, but I'm sure you and I are similar in this way. Anyway, I hope we can start fresh and have a meaningful discussion moving forward with no hard feelings.

Trust me on this, I'm not here to sell XRF equipment since I reap no financial gain as a result. I will however be clear and straightforward on the merits of XRF _*as well as its drawbacks*_ which I'm also happy to discuss. I would do a disservice to the industry if I wasn't honest since it all comes out in the wash ... and I'm in it for the long haul.

In closing, If you still feel the need to dismiss me after reading this post, that's your prerogative, but I would like to think you feel otherwise.


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## Dan Dement

GB,

First, Thanks for coming to my defense and some find we are on opposite sides of a fence and Some thing we are in allegiance. Truth is, it's all a misunderstanding and we should just move on. It's not my call. It's sort of us being car nuts, and your Porsche and I like Corvette's. GSP is the Big Diesel Pickup guys and we all like horsepower! 

Mostly, this all my fault as I do come on strong which I apologize for! From what I understand, GSP is the "Dover Pro" here and gives lots of his time to make sure we all play fair. For me, i have only one questions? Will you sign your book for me as I KNOW I need to buy it & study it!! Where do I send the check?

Peace Guys,

Dan


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## Dan Dement

GSP,

Read your book thread and understand not really a book in paper form. Will send a check out tomorrow No signature required but on my check.

dan


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## paully2013

thought I add this comment this is my very first post

XRF Spectrometer from $10-15K only used for standards such as 10ct, 12ct, sterling silver etc.... so in other words if you have gold plated pins and melt that into a bar and when you do the test it will show you gold and other metals detected

The XRF gun if your using in jewellery and bars I don't recommend as it only scans the surface in microns so if you have a 24ct gold plated bar with copper base it would just read the surface saying its a solid 24ct gold bar but you should know better due to feeing the weight of the bar to realise its not solid gold .... unless they are using tungsten In the plated bars, where as the first system would say there is a large % of tungsten

Now I have to think of an interesting and witty comment to end this post
Ummm you got me on the spot *panics* !!! 

my cats breath smells like cat food


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## Dan Dement

Paully,

Interesting to see this old discussion. Your points are partially correct but here's two later results. My jewelry business is good. Still buying gold as it comes in the door. I really do not advertise but have used the "fair & honest" concept in all my business dealings. I use both SG scales and a year old XRF from Quickshot. I find the desktop units much more reliable than the guns. In my METHOD of cash outs, I use both SG & 7 XRF readings and average the XRF readings. With hundreds of cash outs under my belt, I stay within a $25. window on amounts over $10,000. I have helped and taught anyone who wants to come watch and learn for free. I do Induction Melt all my mini wedge ingots which is an important point in my results. Quickshot still helps me keep up with new metals and alloys as they come up. I am not selling anything and don't want anything from anybody. I get no kickbacks from anybody but give my moral support to people I do business with. I am sure they are better ways to do things and I am always open to learning something new.

Dan


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## goldsilverpro

In reading this old thread, I am embarrassed. I should have been the one to apologize to Dan. Sometimes I can really be a jerk. Sorry, Dan.


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## Dan Dement

Chris,

Nothing to apologize for! You sir, are one of the Protectors of GRF! You keep the BS out of here which I greatly appreciate. You share your knowledge and expertise to the undeserving guys like me. My association with GRF has made me wiser in area's that are very difficult to learn. The journey has taken me down some very interesting different paths which have created many new avenues for me both financially and intellectually. So, just keep doing what your doing for everybody's sake! An honest difference of opinion and discussion is healthy for all! 

Dan


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