# Virtual gold rush



## im1badpup1 (Jan 5, 2018)

Its an online goldrush for cryptocurrencies. The top ones have been running at 1000%s return of investment per annum and it looks set to continue.

Dont believe the banks. They said it was a waste of money 5 years ago where a £10 layout wouldve made you a millionare today- twice over!

The banks say cryptocurrency bubble will burst. But it may be the banking bubble bursts instead. Thatll hyperinflate cryptocurrency by several million % .

Oh a sign if it will be investors flooding into precious metals for a 'solid' investment something they can touch and hold. Meaning good prices for us!


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## anachronism (Jan 5, 2018)

It's a massive market - one we're actively involved in too. The banks want control of it hence all the doom and gloom.


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## im1badpup1 (Jan 5, 2018)

Stick 20 quid in each the top 5 cryptocurrencies jon. Its nothing to lose. If history repeats itself this year a couple of the smaller ones should return over 1000% per annum


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## niks neims (Jan 5, 2018)

If I were to invest in cryptocurrency (I am not!), I would buy the one that has solved BitCoins anonimity problem.... I mean it was huge selling point back when it first started, but for any cryptocurrency to take permanent place in global economy, accountability must be built in to its core design.... Other than that I think blockchain technology is here to stay and 100% it will have a role to play in our future.... But I would stear clear of BitCoin, the bubble has already started to burst...


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## anachronism (Jan 6, 2018)

im1badpup1 said:


> Stick 20 quid in each the top 5 cryptocurrencies jon. Its nothing to lose. If history repeats itself this year a couple of the smaller ones should return over 1000% per annum



We're mining mate and trading. 8)


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## patnor1011 (Jan 6, 2018)

Well, bubble bursting talk never gets old. We hear it since bitcoin was 1$ each. I call it buyers regret. Or better said non-buyers regret. 
Crypto's made me more money than all my gold refining combined. Many times over and I did refine some gold. :mrgreen: 

I do currently mine coin which makes me 1300$ a month with a modest rig with just 5 gpu. There are not entirely unfounded expectations that this particular coin appreciates value 10 fold within this year. Who knows...


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## Yggdrasil (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi!
Do you use sepecialized hardware, or just what comes in the door as part of buisiness?
And do you mine one currency or mutiple?
I have been on the brink of starting Bitcoin a few times, but now I'm leaning towards Monero or similar.
They are earlier in the cycle.
Any recommendations?


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## anachronism (Jan 6, 2018)

We've been mining monero in rigs for 3.5 months. We've now got over 100 of them and when we started they were at $80. At $80 we were making approx $2000 per month net profit after electricity costs. Today's price is $420 each. We're also mining some of the cheap nasty new ones because you can mine a lot of those fast and they have the best "pump and dump" growth.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 6, 2018)

There are coins which can be mined with pretty much anything like with just cpu even. Unfortunately with crypto as with everything else the more money you put in the more you can make. 
I do use probably the best gpu at the moment for monero which is amd radeon vega. Vega56 or Vega64 it does not matter really. However, they shoot up in value and are pretty much sold out everywhere. 

You do have 2 options here. 
1. You utilize a computer which you do have and it is on 24/7. You can let it mine in the background using cpu and gpu and it can make you some money in long-term. (XMR, BCN, AEON just to name few)
2. You bite the bullet and build dedicated mining rig with several gpu's. That one could make you more money and faster. You can combine mining income with trading to increase returns.

Specialized hardware is required for coins like BTC, LTC, Dash - which utilize asic chips. Regular gpu or cpu is not a match to asics. 

I try to stick with one coin for couple days as mining reward usually go higher if you stick with one pool and one coin. Sort of a reward scheme to say it simply. It also depends on personal choice - what coin you think will perform better. There are sites which can compute which coin is the best to mine at the specific time. You can input hardware you plan to use, cost of electricity and you will see what may be the best option for you. 
http://www.whattomine.com

My rig and choice of coins I mined resulted in /3 of my investment back within 6 weeks. I calculated with 100% ROI within 3 months but it seems I was luckier so far than I thought I will be, and I can expect to have ROI within next 2 weeks so in 2 months total. Which is a very good outcome.


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## snoman701 (Jan 6, 2018)

How much bandwidth do you need to set these up?

My internet is less reliable than dialup on a party line of olden days.


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## niks neims (Jan 6, 2018)

patnor1011 said:


> Or better said non-buyers regret



I won't argue, who doesn't wish he could turn 20 bucks in to hundreds of thousands, still by now its akin to wishing that I could've bought Apple stock back in 80'ties...  but if we are discussing here and now - do you really think BTC is worthwhile investment? Do you, personally, 
expect it's value to go back up? (it's already down a bit from it's peak few weaks ago)? Almost all of the opinion pieces I've read on the internet are prognosing BTC value either plummeting down, or climbing sky-high. Latter is only likely if BTC becomes THE cryptocurrency of the future... How likely do you think it is with all the apparent problems surfacing, like anonimity or diminishing returns of miners (without enough miners whole system collapses...). How long do you think till there comes along better designed blockchain based cryptocurrency? If I understood you correctly neither you nor other people in this thread are mining BTC currently.... I am not being rhetorical, it is interesting discussion to be Had . Another point I would like to propose is that the recent spike in BTC value is due to larger coin holders intentionaly pumping up it's percieved value (by buying press releases for example, etc. ) to dump them on New hopefull buyers...


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## anachronism (Jan 6, 2018)

niks neims said:


> If I understood you correctly neither you nor other people in this thread are mining BTC currently.... I am not being rhetorical,



You'd be correct. There's absolutely no point in mining Bitcoin right now.


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## niks neims (Jan 6, 2018)

anachronism said:


> There's absolutely no point in mining Bitcoin right now.


Thank you, my point exactly  I also have heard that by now eaven mining with dedicated gear doesn't pay for electricity consumed... So what is the saving grace of BTC, for what possible reason it's value would go up exept for market fluctuations due to speculation - the definition of the bubble, it could end only one way... I am in no way dissing cryptocurrency or blockchain principle in general but I would not suggest to anyone to get into BTC at this point in time, especially since there are great cryptocurrency alternatives


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## patnor1011 (Jan 7, 2018)

Current mining hardware is very efficient and turning up quite profit to anyone who owns it. Every new bitcoin mining computer vanishes within minutes it hit shelves. I would say bitcoin can be compared to gold in a sense that it will not be used as a currency or for day to day transactions but rather as a store of value of some sorts or as an investment vehicle. It fluctuates rather wildly but that is what we call market as opposed to what we see with precious metals - they are being in a stranglehold of few banks. If only physical gold which is in existence would be freely traded we would see even bigger price swings or price increase than what we see in bitcoin today. The market, be it shares, stocks, commodities you name it is no longer about price discovery or real sentiment out there but it is what few people decide they want it to be. It is called "regulation" but it is just another name of manipulation. Market manipulation is not a conspiracy theory but proven fact.
The question then is what do you want? Chance of going in a risk on your own decision with the possibility of making a killing or quiet life where everything will be decided and predetermined for you long in advance (90% of the people in this scenario are expected to be born poor, live miserably and to die even poorer). 
The bigger the risk the better reward - if you get it right. 
If you would look hard enough then pretty much everything you can think about can be called bubble.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 7, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> How much bandwidth do you need to set these up?
> 
> My internet is less reliable than dialup on a party line of olden days.



Bandwidth is negligent. An uninterrupted connection is more desired than crazy speed but even that is not requirement as mining software is designed to reconnect automatically in case of lost connection. If you experience outages then mining coins with pools supporting PPS may be better option than PPLNS where later require consistency - the longer you mine the better reward. Shoot me a pm we can talk about it and I can help you set it all up.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 7, 2018)

anachronism said:


> niks neims said:
> 
> 
> > If I understood you correctly neither you nor other people in this thread are mining BTC currently.... I am not being rhetorical,
> ...



I would expand this as it is not entirely correct statement in itself. 
There is no point in mining Bitcoin with anything which is not specifically designed to mine BTC. Like cpu or gpu. 
Every new BTC mining hardware is very affordable and can repay itself within 2-3 months top like it is the case with bitmain antminer s9 which is the most current one. Problem is they sell out as soon as they are produced. There is no chance to buy it for 1800-2400$ which was the original price from the manufacturer. The only units you can buy are from people who bought more and resell them for profit usually for 3x of the original price. 
There is so much demand for them that some manufacturers do not deal with people who want one piece and do have minimum requirement of 60 units if you want to buy them. Antminer sell them in form of presale batches with delivery delayed by months in some cases. 
If mining BTC would be uneconomical nobody would buy any so the opposite is the case, it just cost more to get on that train. That is why a lot of people do mine alternative cryptocurrencies. 

So yes, there is absolutely no point in mining Bitcoin right now.* 
*unless you do have the proper hardware to do so.


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## anachronism (Jan 7, 2018)

You're right Pat I was too black and white in the reply. 

By the way guys Pat's knowledge on this topic is pretty darned good. Yeah I do it as part of my business, but I'm not the brains behind it.


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## cosmetal (Jan 7, 2018)

patnor1011 said:


> Current mining hardware is very efficient and turning up quite profit to anyone who owns it. Every new bitcoin mining computer vanishes within minutes it hit shelves. I would say bitcoin can be compared to gold in a sense that it will not be used as a currency or for day to day transactions but rather as a store of value of some sorts or as an investment vehicle. It fluctuates rather wildly but that is what we call market as opposed to what we see with precious metals - they are being in a stranglehold of few banks. If only physical gold which is in existence would be freely traded we would see even bigger price swings or price increase than what we see in bitcoin today. The market, be it shares, stocks, commodities you name it is no longer about price discovery or real sentiment out there but it is what few people decide they want it to be. It is called "regulation" but it is just another name of manipulation. Market manipulation is not a conspiracy theory but proven fact.
> The question then is what do you want? Chance of going in a risk on your own decision with the possibility of making a killing or quiet life where everything will be decided and predetermined for you long in advance (90% of the people in this scenario are expected to be born poor, live miserably and to die even poorer).
> The bigger the risk the better reward - if you get it right.
> If you would look hard enough then pretty much everything you can think about can be called bubble.



Pat,

So very, very true. 

Also, very, very sad if you aren't aware of it.

Thank you for such a spot on summary!  

James


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## niks neims (Jan 7, 2018)

patnor1011

first let me say that you have already impressed me immensely with your selfless contribution to GRF by your IC thread alone, so please forgive me that I must strongly disagree with you on this one, not on the risk taking - decision making part, but on specifically Bitcoin being a great investment or that anyone should consider getting in to the Bitcoin mining game at this point in time....

then again I may just be misinformed, and your knowledge on subject is obviously superior, so if you don`t mind, could you educate me a bit?

1. when using top tier specialized mining gear - what are average power consumption? for example kWh/BTC. What are average time spent to mine one BTC per one device?
2. Do I understand correctly that for any transaction via BTC to be verified (accepted) the current blockchain must be solved by some miner and proven to be correct (excuse me if I am rambling in terminology - in laymans terms - for transaction to be complete some miner (or many miners together) somewhere must verify it?)? 
3. To motivate miners to do their work and keep system going by mining (or verifying transactions) it genereates new BTC as reward, but to combat possible inflation each new BTC is much harder to mine?
4. For system to have any integrity there must be many unrelated miners, all agreeing on current blockchains being correct?
5. Irregardless on how many BTC are being transferred there is the same amount of work involved in proofing of transaction?
6. How many BTC transactions are happening in world currently on average (transactions per hour, amount of BTC changing hands per hour)?
7. What are current wait-times for a transaction to be completed/verified? Are there any projections for future wait-times if system grows? How does it compares cost-vise and time-vise to the traditional money circulation (bank transfer, paypal etc.)?
8. What happens when (not if) work of proving the transaction far outweighs value of BTC being awarded for said work? Is there any plan of action or consensus in BTC mining community on this question?
9. What happens when due to diminishing returns of mining there is concentration of mining power in few mayor players, say mining farms in politically sensitive regions like China or Russia - does that not threaten system integrity?
10. What happens if there is a disagreement on blockchain integrity, must every user check for solution themselves (as I understand it is much quicker and easier to check that chain is correct than to solve for a new one, but still...)?
11. What happens if, due to a lack of miners, wait times surpass threshold to be useful in daily transactions or there is cost-of-transaction implemented that is greater than traditional money transfer costs?
12. Do you really think that a system of exchange of values (currency) can exist on global scale in our civilized world where there is no way of accountability? I mean there is cash, of course, but most civilized nations in the world regulate cash deals very strictly, and with very good reasons. So basically, what happens if by some miracle BTC is officially universaly recognized and must come in to the fold of global economy, who is accountable, who can prevent or investigate criminal transactions, or even more prosaic, how are taxation implemented?

Also I must strongly disagree that BTC is or can be used for store of value, I would bet that >90% of current BTC owners are treating it as short term investment hoping to cash in on price changes, it makes the global BTC market very very unstable...
For Bitcoin to have any inherent value besides the speculative hype there must be some usefulness it offers to the world, a greater good if you will. It would be the case if BTC could become the one main cryptocurrency of the future, but as it stands, I just don`t see it happening. I mean, yes, it was the first (major) one, it basically introduced the world to the technology of blockchain and to the idea of cryptocurrency. But do you really mean to tell me that the old man Satoshi made it perfect in every way on his first try, and that there is no room for improvement? How long till there comes along some better-designed one, one that really can enter our daily lives, easing money circulation as we know it. I bet there is a lot of very bright minds working on it this very moment, and I would be very suprised if there already wouldn`t be plans made for a block-Dollar or chain-Euro; That is for shure, technology is here to stay, and we will use it one way or other, but I for one just can`t see BTC being around for much longer with all of it`s inherent flaws... and when any other cryptocurrency starts gaining significant ground - BTC will crash and burn, there is no value to it, it is just how the phenomenon of currency works...

tl;dr:
BitCoin, cryptocurrency, dollar, euro, any of the currency has no inherent value at all, just ask any German in 1923 or any Zimbabwean in 2008; Money (currency) by it self is no more valuable than paper that it is printed on... So recognize Bitcoin for what it is = it is a tool (just like any currency) for exchanging values, if it is the best tool (best designed) for the job, then it is here to stay and there is a chance that BTC will hold some of their value, BUT if there is any room for improvement, well lets just hope that there is some gold to e-scrap in them antminers


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## jimdoc (Jan 7, 2018)

How does one spend their Bitcoins if and when the grid goes down?

What does one do if their Bitcoins just "disappear"?


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## niks neims (Jan 7, 2018)

jimdoc said:


> How does one spend their Bitcoins if and when the grid goes down?



or if you have no accesss to internet for example 

you take a piece of paper and you write I.O.U. on it.
There you go, you have just emitted one physical jimcoin


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## patnor1011 (Jan 8, 2018)

jimdoc said:


> How does one spend their Bitcoins if and when the grid goes down?


Lets say that there is The grid (what we call internet) and Bitcoin grid.
Bitcoin grid cant go down as it is decentralised running full blockchain with ledger of all transactions made in every core node out there. There are hundreds of thousands or perhaps even millions of them - I have no idea how many full nodes are out there I am sure approximate number can be found somewhere, I too run one. You would have to physically turn off every single one to accomplish this and that is just impossible to do. 
If The grid goes down bitcoin would be the last thing you or anyone else would be concerned with, as we as a civilisation are so dependant on internet right now that major collapse will put world back in stone age within days.



jimdoc said:


> What does one do if their Bitcoins just "disappear"?


Nothing. Your bitcoins cant just disappear. 
Safe storage of btc depends on your definition of what you do consider adequate measure and result will be equal to your decission. Same with valuables you do have in your home. If you put them under pillow someone may be able to steal them. If you would have them in a big safe with armed guard it will be harder to take. Yes, btc was stolen or user accounts hacked but that happened only when you shared your private keys with someone or used some service like a trading exchange or some online wallet. There was no instance I know about when core wallet was compromised and bitcoin stolen. In fact you can use so long password as an additional measure to encrypt your core wallet that even nsa supercomputer would be not able to break in in any reasonable time. 
And if the grid go down there would be not just bitcoins gone but all other things we take for granted like bank accounts... 


To clarify things, I am not rabid bitcoin or crypto fanatic. I just see potential to make extra money or perhaps to get rich even. I got into it a bit deeper as I was introduced to it way before it started appearing in news. I am not crypto revolutionary warrior or blockchain fanatic trying to change the world. I look at it from outside and weigh in all pro and cons and at this very moment, it is very clear to me that sitting on a side is like watching a movie instead of trying to have a role in it. 
Whether we realize it or not we are being inoculated by media, peer pressure, governments to do things in a way someone else decided we should do them for the "greater good". Is it in our interest or someone else interest? Very hard to say as "greater good" may not equal to your own good. To put it simply an outcome of some or most of our actions can only be visible in near or distant future but believe me, there are people who try hard to think for you and steer you in the direction they decided you should go. 
I watched bitcoin and crypto nearly from the beginning and I simply decided that I want a slice of that instead of listening to others who try to tell me to stay away. You see with gold we are in the same train - if we all listened to Alan Greenspan and his definition of gold as old outdated and worthless relic we would not be bothered with recovery and refining. Not to mention he was not alone, people talking about investing in silver or palladium were outright dismissed as lunatics. 
If bitcoin and current crypto's will not survive I could not care less. It was a good ride for me and interesting and valuable experience. I am not betting all my life savings or possessions on it but I would certainly not dismiss it and look for an excuse why I would not try to get it while others did. 
From what is going on it is clear to me that this is a future and even now most of the money you do use are in the same form as crypto's and bitcoin - pure electronic thing existing in a computer only. 
I told it to everyone who was interested to hear - now is the only time for common man to get their own money printing machine before it will be too late. 

Niks, your post is quite long and with many questions so I will try to get to it later on when I will have more time and answer what I can or what I know.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 8, 2018)

All I write are just my thoughts or how I see things. I may be wrong but it simply worked for me so far.

Few additional points.
Bitcoin and some other cryptocurrencies are here to stay, if not forever then for some time anyway. I would not outright dismiss it as scam or bubble as they are quite similar to stocks, shares and commodities. 90% of goods traded on commodity exchange are never to be delivered or never exist quite frankly. Shares are quite the same - what is the value of facebook? I mean real value not perceived one. 
How does the Wall Street make money? As I understand it simply by screwing small investors yet everyone considers it normal despite numerous people losing all they had. There is no shortage of new money coming in and new sheep to be skinned alive yet nobody is screaming scam or bubble all take it as part of "the game". How are cryptocurrencies and investing in them different from all of this? Control, that is the only thing. Staunchest opponents of cryptos are not governments but banks because they got used to the fact that the game was rigged and controlled by them but in this case, they are slowly losing control as you can trade cryptos without any bank in sight. Governments, on the other hand, are quite happy for every possibility to tax pretty much anything and yes, bitcoin and gains are being taxed. It is the legal obligation of everyone to self-declare any tax liability pretty much anywhere in the world. If you want you can try to avoid tax but do not be surprised if the government will come hard on you. I do not condone or advise anyone to try to avoid taxing their gains from cryptocurrencies. It is somehow possible and without going into much detail quite a lot of what companies usually do in current fiat system to reduce tax burden can easily be applied to lowering cryptocurrency gains tax liability too.

There is absolute fortune invested in cryptocurrencies at this time and it only grows. I am not talking about the speculative side of things but rather about the economy in global terms. I mean countless jobs created to support that system. From CPU and GPU manufacturers being able to speed up R&D to bring in new and better stuff even to drive invention forward. Countless ideas and movements being financed, cryptocurrencies helped speed up everything so much we can hardly grasp on everything that is going on right now not to mention what future bring. 
Check this as an example of what is going on right now and this is just one of many crypto currencies around:
https://electroneum.com/2018/01/05/electroneum-signs-agreement-with-telecommunications-payments-giant-xius/

Cryptocurrencies are here to stay in my opinion, what form or shape only time will tell. If they would be such a bad idea there would be no CBOE or NYSE trying to get in. Not to mention many other countries actively working on implementing mechanisms to capitalize on current trend with Japan and China in a lead. Many governments already do use bitcoin, US government does too. They regularly auction seized bitcoins so if it is not valuable asset why would they bother. IRS is actively working on solutions to streamline taxing cryptocurrencies gains.

In my opinion (and many other people think that too) major banks stick together for the time being trying to undermine Bitcoin and other independent cryptos. Funniest moment in this is that they actually work behind the scenes implementing it all as they were unable to suppress it and it is way too lucrative not to get in that gravy train. If you want to see what I am talking about use Google and get some info about Ripple coin which is actively supported by some of the biggest banks. 
At this moment all it takes is one rogue bank running away from the pack trying to get in other cryptos to get a slice of the pie and to gain an advantage and then most of them will rush in. That will be something we cant even imagine right now. 

So, can bitcoin fail? Of course, it can but.... Can it go to 100k or even a cool million? Quite easy. 
The only winner will be someone who is prepared for both outcomes.


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## jason_recliner (Jan 8, 2018)

patnor1011 said:


> jimdoc said:
> 
> 
> > What does one do if their Bitcoins just "disappear"?
> ...


They certainly can. It's just improbable, unless you used a common passphrase. To steal them you either come up with the same passphrase, or take the (I think, approx) 2^128 chance, which is very improbable.
There are people who steal bitcoins for a living, bases on regularly scripting commonly used passphrases. Go on, generate a key set using "Password1" and transfer a little coin into the address. I promise it'll be gone before you can see it.

Back in 2013 I bought some hardware and mined a number of bitcoins. Last week I was sick, at home, for a couple of days and I was playing with a wallet passphrase generator. I tried a number of common phrases and in a couple of hours I had found a phrase, generated a key for an account that had 31.6 bitcoins in it. At about AU$20k/bitcoin. Its' still there now. How tempting! For if you know the private key, you effectively control the account. So I could easily transfer them to me, but ultimately everything is traceable. Apart from the (im)moral aspect, however would I withdraw them to cash without looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life?


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## patnor1011 (Jan 8, 2018)

I am going to try to answer directly in your post I will use red color. I am happy to offer my view of things as I find this topic and discussion simply fascinating.



niks neims said:


> patnor1011
> 
> first let me say that you have already impressed me immensely with your selfless contribution to GRF by your IC thread alone, so please forgive me that I must strongly disagree with you on this one, not on the risk taking - decision making part, but on specifically Bitcoin being a great investment but it is considering its performance in last 8 years or that anyone should consider getting in to the Bitcoin mining game at this point in time.... never said that, I merely pointed out that if anyone wants that it is still possible. I suggested that people should try altcoins mining.
> 
> ...


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## patnor1011 (Jan 8, 2018)

jason_recliner said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> > jimdoc said:
> ...



You need to get access to private keys - to actual wallet.dat file and then you will have to crack password. People with serious money do store wallets in a offline computer so you will not be able to get access to it or they do use paper wallets which are unhackable. Some of new hardware wallets like trezor or ledger are also quite safe as you do store private keys in your device and any would-be thief will have to get physical access to it. 
You can not generate private keys to wallet if you do not have access to wallet.dat file private keys are generated by the wallet and are stored in that file. To be able to get them you will have to crack password which is there ()if it is set by anyone who generated that file)
For what I know people use passwords with more than 30-40 characters and they are hard to figure out. New wallets do use string of 20-30 common words which is even harder to solve.


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## niks neims (Jan 8, 2018)

I think that gold is not the gold standard because it was the first one, I mean humans were trading see-shells, sticks, cattle, women and back-rubs long before any gold nuggets came along, it became the universal gold standard precisely because it is the best tool for the task. 

And it is basically what it all boils down to - Is or Is not BTC the best tool for value exchange in computer age?

If it is, then all should get on BTC train as soon as possible!

If it is not, then we must admit that eventually BTC value will be zero... You can still play the stock-market game and try to make some money but it is much much riskier if you know what the outcome eventually will be... I mean, someone will take it on the chin in the end, there is no way around it, it is like playing Russian roulette... or in the words of Dirty Harry: "Do, you [..]?"


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## jimdoc (Jan 8, 2018)

A Crypto Website Changes Its Data, and $100 Billion in Market Value Vanishes 


https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-crypto-website-changes-its-data-and-100-billion-in-market-value-vanishes-1515443100


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## patnor1011 (Jan 9, 2018)

That is a bit misleading title but what else you can expect from WSJ. What happened is better explained in reuters article:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-global-bitcoin/bitcoin-slides-as-website-drops-south-korea-prices-from-virtual-currency-rates-idUSKBN1EX1DB

I think I mentioned it, btc and crypto's experience wild price swings pretty regularly. That is what can make you rich if you are lucky, fast and your timing is right. Not bank savings account with 0.25% annual interest.

As I said, pretty exciting and interesting times we live in.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 9, 2018)

niks neims said:


> I think that gold is not the gold standard because it was the first one, I mean humans were trading see-shells, sticks, cattle, women and back-rubs long before any gold nuggets came along, it became the universal gold standard precisely because it is the best tool for the task.
> Well, maybe you got it right here. It is called progress and we went from sticks to sea shells to gold and who knows, maybe bitcoin or something similar will be just another "tool of exchange". We all can see a great push for electronic cashless society and cryptocurrency may be just that.
> And it is basically what it all boils down to - Is or Is not BTC the best tool for value exchange in computer age?
> You tell me. For what I know you can transfer vast amounts of money in a fraction of time as opposed to traditional methods.
> ...



Someone will always take it on the chin. That possibility was always there and with pretty much anything you can think about. Countless of people are losing insane money daily on stock markets even as we speak. Well for what it is worth even you took it on a chin without even knowing or doing anything - millions of people lost their homes due to 08' mortgage crisis and we all are saddled with gigantic debt as we are the ones who have to pay for bailing out banks. 
You like gold and there is nothing wrong with that. I just like to spread my investment to as many things as possible. That proved to be a good strategy at least for me. I am not even remotely interested in trying to convince you or anyone else to invest in bitcoin or cryptocurrencies. I am just offering my observations and experience to anyone who wants to listen as there is quite a lot of FUD and outright lies being thrown around daily in regards to bitcoin and other alt currencies.

Do not be so scared of Bitcoin, Ripple coin is much scarier. Ripple is actually endorsed and actually working with few big banks and did 35,000% :shock: just in a year. Imagine you got 100$ worth of ripple this time last year you could make 50k out of it.


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## niks neims (Jan 9, 2018)

patnor1011 said:


> as there is quite a lot of FUD and outright lies being thrown around daily in regards to bitcoin and other alt currencies.




That is what all this have been about, only I would add - It seems to me that most people are having trouble understanding concept of Bitcoin or currency in general - No matter how many bitcoins (dollars, euros) there are in the world, BTC by them selves have no value, it is only representation of value, no matter how many bitcoins get mined, it does not change number of bread, beers or _entertainment_ availible on this planet, what it does - it RISES THE PRICE of those goods and services in other currencies, devaluates them; if people of the world are assigning value to the BTC, then each dollar, each euro, each ounce of gold, all of the other currencies in use - it all combined loses the same value given to bitcoin... Of course real economy is much more complicated, but mathematically it is true - if there are 17kk BTC in circulation, representing value of 12 000 euro each, it means there is value equivalent to 2 040 000 000 000 EUR taken out of the pocket of each and every person on the planet that uses or owns any of the other currencies, be it dollars, euros, or gold...

_edit: naugty word!_


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## snoman701 (Jan 9, 2018)

If that's the case, you can have all the bread and beer.

I'm saving my money! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## anachronism (Jan 9, 2018)

A bit like 1.5 million tonnes of paper gold being traded when there are only 180,000 tonnes of real gold in existence?


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## niks neims (Jan 9, 2018)

or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/


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## UncleBenBen (Jan 9, 2018)

niks neims said:


> or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/



All debt payable to our lovely central bankers. Step up, sign on the dotted line...


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## patnor1011 (Jan 9, 2018)

niks neims said:


> or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/




I thought we do have a productive debate and please do not take this in a bad way or as a personal attack but honestly, when I see "unregulated bubbles like BTC" it frankly makes me sad. I see that you are somehow indoctrinated and simply refuse to look deeper into the rabbit hole but you simply must if you want to understand it.

There is a finite amount of bitcoin. It cant be replicated or duplicated or reprinted or increased as opposed to traditional currency. Yes, there are bubbles and we really should open our eyes and see them all around us. There was one recently and popped up right around 2008. 5 trillion dollars gone in the wind, 8 million people lost their jobs, 6 million lost their houses and that was just in the USA. Now multiply that several times if you want to get to the global numbers game. 

Let us play with some numbers. There are 16 million bitcoins mined at this moment out of which 4 million are lost forever. You seem to be very alarmed at the thought of bitcoin at 10k a piece but let us make that boogeyman even scarier and pretend that OMG bitcoin is 100k a piece. That is just 1,3 trillion of $ and fairly well distributed all around a world. That means that even if bitcoin will go to 1 million and market cap would be 13 trillion and it will crash and burn... The end result will be smaller than recent mortgage crisis. 

The mortgage crisis was not sorted, the problem was just slightly delayed but it is coming back again. Add in pretty much all that banking sector is offering like car loans, credit card debt, student loans, insolvent pension funds.........
Insurance is a bubble by definition, you will know it as soon as you try to claim on whatever policy you hold. 
Bitcoin is absolutely nothing when compared to what we will have to deal with when the music stops. 
The whole banking industry is rotten to the core with absolutely no oversight, trading is completely corrupted with no regulations whatsoever as they used '08 to dismantle last bits of regulations, corporations paying a fraction of % in taxes yet it all works perfectly for people who run things. 
Of course, powers that be do not like crypto as they cant effectively control it. 
An alternative is always frowned upon as it is disrupting status quo. 

I feel like I am wasting my and other people time so I will no longer bother you or anyone else with my rambling. You seem to like to quote movies so I will leave with reference from Matrix and let you enjoy your blue pill.


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## snoman701 (Jan 10, 2018)

patnor1011 said:


> The mortgage crisis was not sorted, the problem was just slightly delayed but it is coming back again. Add in pretty much all that banking sector is offering like car loans, credit card debt, student loans, insolvent pension funds.........
> Insurance is a bubble by definition, you will know it as soon as you try to claim on whatever policy you hold.
> Bitcoin is absolutely nothing when compared to what we will have to deal with when the music stops.
> The whole banking industry is rotten to the core with absolutely no oversight, trading is completely corrupted with no regulations whatsoever as they used '08 to dismantle last bits of regulations, corporations paying a fraction of % in taxes yet it all works perfectly for people who run things.



I think that you hit the nerve right there. And this is, as I said, why I don't understand ANY of it. It should have all collapsed long ago. Everything just delays it. 

I don't know the answer, I'm not even sure I understand the question...but the whole discussion makes me feel ill. It concerns me for my daughters future. 

I actually had this exact conversation with someone who I consider highly intelligent. Someone who held quite a few government approvals to work with high level confidential material. His answer was simple, teach her to independently solve problems, think outside the box, accept failure and communicate effectively while maintaining a sense of humanity and she'll be ok. 

Now, taking stock of my life, I'm trying as hard as I can to see that she gets those traits, whether from me or others, because to a certain extent, I've accepted where I am in this bubble. I've got a steep cliff to climb, and she's seeing me continue to try to climb it...but I am determined to see that her slope is a little less steep. 

My point is, with any of these currencies, whether they be seashells or unique numbers, they don't change your outlook. You can only see as far as your next obstacle that is taller than you, beyond that it's up to your imagination to determine what you deserve to see next. 

I appreciate your posts on the topic Patnor, even if my opinion is still a bit cynical.


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## snoman701 (Jan 10, 2018)

I'll make this post a little less philosophical.

Given that many of us have piles of old technology, are there ways to capitalize on the new crypto currencies that don't involve buying $400 video cards? I assume that these are just the most efficient methods of mining, and even an older computer could earn you something. At any given time, I've probably got four computers going, but they aren't gaming systems, I don't even know if they are new to this decade (and we are near the end). I don't even mind losing a little on the electric bill side of it, it's at least more productive than my wife leaving the bathroom light on overnight.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 10, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> I'll make this post a little less philosophical.
> 
> Given that many of us have piles of old technology, are there ways to capitalize on the new cryptocurrencies that don't involve buying $400 video cards? I assume that these are just the most efficient methods of mining, and even an older computer could earn you something. At any given time, I've probably got four computers going, but they aren't gaming systems, I don't even know if they are new to this decade (and we are near the end). I don't even mind losing a little on the electric bill side of it, it's at least more productive than my wife leaving the bathroom light on overnight.



Yes but the outcome will be most likely equal to what you do use with exception of pure luck.
What I mean is that there are coins out there which are designed to be mined with CPU only and are meant as a fair chance for anyone to have a bit of them. But even then no cpu is equal so new better cpu will get you more than old ass one. Still, it makes sense to have pc to use idle cpu power to earn something in the background. 
There is also a considerable chance of making it big even with there coins most of which are called shitcoin due to many different factors and some people can get serious money if they chose to mine that right one. Which one? - That is a million dollars question nobody can answer. Pure luck, gamble and be in a right place in the right time is what makes difference. A lottery of sorts.


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## niks neims (Jan 10, 2018)

I took the liberty to answer in your quoted post, it is much more convieniant 



patnor1011 said:


> niks neims said:
> 
> 
> > or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/
> ...



I guess my biggest problem is that you seem to want to counteract BTC to global banking, I, on the other hand would argue that it is just a sales pitch... You see without dwelling in to conspiracy theories (nose knows who is behind it all ), you must agree that there is always people trying to make money and great many of them don`t give a rats ass who gets screwed over in the process. So I see hype about bitcoins as just that - a scheme to earn money off of people who will end up with worthless zeros on their computer screen ...

You seem to refer to the 08` crisis a lot, well at its heart it wasn`t about housing, or credits, the real crap hit the fan when financial derivatives came at play, and the essence of it was that there were over evaluation of assets (mortgages, primarily), in other words - they were making money out of thin air, then borrowing against that money, making eaven more money out of nothing, I am shure all of involved economists knew perfectly well that this is not sustainable, but they all went along for the ride, it is just human nature I guess.... And it is all happening with BTC over again, by now Bitcoin is in the same place as "the Banks", eaven worse...

-Artūrs


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## niks neims (Jan 10, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> teach her to independently solve problems, think outside the box, accept failure and communicate effectively while maintaining a sense of humanity and she'll be ok.




It is not mine, I think I actually read it on 4chan of all places, but in my mind one of best advices on investment is very similar:

Invest in yourself, in your personal growth, go to a gym, learn a skill, a trade, expand your knowledge, educate yourself, it is the one and only safe investmet that will never lose any value an that no one can take away from you...

-Artūrs


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## anachronism (Jan 11, 2018)

niks neims said:


> And it is all happening with BTC over again, by now Bitcoin is in the same place as "the Banks", eaven worse...
> 
> -Artūrs



No it's not. Cryptocurrencies are your chance to break the mold until they are all owned by banks. You either grasp the nettle or you're a bank slave forever. 

Jon


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## niks neims (Jan 12, 2018)

Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

c`mon, sing along!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss 

but seriously, how does BTC breaks the mold? All I really see money circulation vise is that it can cut in to the rather high money transfer fees of banking... but hey, come to think about it, that is how current media darling Elon got his start also 

But still, I mean, it is no communist manifest  keep in mind that capitalism has a bad habit of hooking idealistic people on shiny slogans and anti-capitalism sentiment (how ironic....)... Take it from me, I am die-hard capitalist, and I actually have used it in my work, also you probably see it all around you and we all laugh if it is presented in meme form, like MAGA hat made in China or Che shirt sold at wallmart  And make no mistake - there is not and there can`t be nothing idealogical about BTC, it is all about making money... it is money...


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## snoman701 (Jan 12, 2018)

anachronism said:


> niks neims said:
> 
> 
> > And it is all happening with BTC over again, by now Bitcoin is in the same place as "the Banks", eaven worse...
> ...



Cryptocurrencies in their origin, felt like an opportunity to work without someone manipulating the system for their own gain, but as they exist now, they seem just as manipulated as any other big bank currency. 

Once you invest in something for the mere purpose of it increasing in value, without respect to reality, it's a ponzi scheme with different players. The fact that bitcoin went from the average joe buying stuff (seemingly anonymously) online, to the traditional banker type buying just to own is just further evidence therein. 

A true de-centralized currency shouldn't require the use of regulated wallets to store the currency in.


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