# Silver Chloride and Lead Sulphate mix



## Wingedcloud (Nov 24, 2019)

Hello all,

Been recovering some gold from a large batch of ceramic cpus I got.

After leaching with AR, my usual method is to drop some ice cubes on my pregnant solution, to chill it and (presumably) remove any silver in the form of chloride, and add some sulfuric acid to it aswell, to drop any lead as lead sulpahte.

I usually dont pay much attention to the silver from ceramic cpus, but this time I fell like I should, because there is really alot of them :lol: 
So, I've been pilling up paper filtes of the silver chloride and lead sulphate "mix" and was wandering if there is a method to redissolve it all again and get the silver isolated, either by chloride or through copper cementation.
I always think about AR'ing it all, but I would like insight from anyone before I do it and maybe create a big mess.

Anyone can chime in and give some advice on this ?

Thanks in advance !

Winged


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## Lino1406 (Nov 24, 2019)

With chilling you get both - Ag and Pb as insoluble chlorides. Then dissolve lead chloride in hot water - no need for sulphate


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## Jmk88 (Nov 25, 2019)

Another thing. Running a pregnant AR solution through silver chloride filled filters will lose you a reasonable amount of gold.

Based purely on the description of your process, you’re probably better recovering initially.

You can run your cpus in AP to recover the foils which will likely leave you with only gold and silver chloride.

Silver chloride can be converted easily into a soluble form which will eliminate losses through trapped gold solution.

But definitely think about a recovery process first. Makes life a lot easier and gold a lot purer.


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## anachronism (Nov 25, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> Silver chloride can be converted easily into a soluble form which will eliminate losses through trapped gold solution.



You're going to have to help me out here please. How is Silver Chloride converted easily into a soluble form during the process of recovering gold from processors? 

For the record over the ceramics I've done, Silver Chloride hasn't been an issue because there really isn't that much of it, and proper vacuum filtering to a clear liquid prevents the vast majority from even getting into your gold powder.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 25, 2019)

Jon,

Silver chloride is quite easily soluble in water and pentahydrates.

But I’m sure you already knew that.

Hope you’ve been well.


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## anachronism (Nov 25, 2019)

No I have never heard of that. Can you tell me more? Genuine question.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 25, 2019)

Sodium thiosulphate.

Hoke disusses it but mainly for an antidote to cyanide.

A 20% solution based on 1000 grams of water will dissolve approximately 90grams of silver chloride. Heated. 

It’s a good option if you can’t get nitric to remove hard solder but I agree with you I’m not sure why you’d have much lead or silver on ceramic cpus. Possibly some minor lead but struggling with the silver. 

Possibly hard soldering/brazing/welding I don’t know much about cpus they always strike me as a waste of time unless obtained free.


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## anachronism (Nov 25, 2019)

Yeah so it's Sodium Thiosulphate and water. I understand that, thanks. 

The bit I will struggle with is why would I introduce that into the process thereby increasing my waste liquids, and in fact making a completely different additional waste stream.

My normal approach is to filter the AR to within an inch of its life using vacuum filtration, thereby making the drops incredibly clean and the HCl washes on the gold powder will take up small amounts of silver should any be there after correct filtration and precipitation. 

All the filter papers are then collated for treatment in one batch at a later stage.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 25, 2019)

Yea I think we’re on the same page.

The issue is, we both understand and appreciate the recovery process.

I think butcher hits the nail on the head; the less rubbish in, the less rubbish out.

I think the answer for me, is recover using AP if just e scrap, dissolve the silver chloride and then you’ll have nearly a pure AR solution. 

That’s probably where he’s going a bit wrong. I still think silver chloride is a problem if not removed prior to AR. It’s so easy to do so I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t. Silver chloride is, in my opinion, very hostile to the refining process. Recovery is 90% of the work I think. Any old fool can pour two liquids together and drop some gold and base in.

It also stops any flakes being trapped as well as pregnant AR. Thinking about it, cpus probably do have hard soldering.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 25, 2019)

I think a thorough explanation of the difference of solders somewhere by someone would be very helpful to people.

I notice that most the problems people are facing relate to solder issues; be it jewellery or e scrap.

I will draft something and send copies to the administrators to see their views.


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## anachronism (Nov 25, 2019)

Stick them up on here if you like. I'm pretty sure that the moderators would agree that there's a pretty good range of knowledge on GRF that doesn't depend upon the colour of your name. 

I'd be interested in a look at what you've got to offer, but do be prepared for some reasoned disagreements from members as well as agreement.

Jon


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## Jmk88 (Nov 25, 2019)

I don’t mind that but I think something exclusively on solders would be helpful to people. 

I see a lot of posts where people post pictures of what appears to me to be silver chloride thinking it’s lead.

People then offer advice on that basis. 

It’s always identified as solder but soft solder as it was pointed out to me, is quite easily treated with hcl even with big batches. Hard solder is an entirely different beast, especially for someone starting out like me. 

So my approach is to focus most of your energy on recovery. It’s where the real magic happens as it takes all of 20 mins to dissolve gold in AR. It’s how you prepare your gold prior to going in that influences quantity and quality. 

Just having silver chloride in an AR solution based on my limited experience loses you gold. Agreed that funnelling would mitigate, but eliminating is the best option.

It’s so easy to do during recovery stage too that it doesn’t make sense. You are also able to collect more pure silver as it won’t be contaminated by gold. An ounce of silver would pay for 25kg of a salt that can dissolve silver chloride so it’s well worth doing.

I also cement my copper so it all adds up eventually. 

But the silver removal prior to ar is a no brainier to me?


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## Jmk88 (Nov 25, 2019)

But to add to that I think it dissolves gold too.


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## Shark (Nov 25, 2019)

anachronism said:


> Yeah so it's Sodium Thiosulphate and water. I understand that, thanks.
> 
> The bit I will struggle with is why would I introduce that into the process thereby increasing my waste liquids, and in fact making a completely different additional waste stream.
> 
> ...



Found that kind of funny, but since I started working on that same principle I have had way better looking gold.


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## Lino1406 (Nov 25, 2019)

Thiosulphate indeed dissolves silver chloride, if needed, but do not forget to make it alkaline before


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Lino,

Do you know how to effectively separate silver chloride from recovered gold? 

I’m thinking thiosulphate will result in gold losses; however, based on basic chemistry, we know gold and silver do not like being in solution together. 

Does this apply to thiosulphate? As in, if it reacts with the silver chloride, will it also react with the gold? 

My understanding is a strong oxidiser is needed, however, I’m also reading study papers suggesting the intake of the atmospheric oxygen is sufficient. I can’t find anything that’s clear. 

Kindest Regards,


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## anachronism (Nov 26, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> Lino,
> 
> Do you know how to effectively separate silver chloride from recovered gold?



Whilst I'm not Lino I can answer that. You boil the powder in 50/50 HCl, and follow a wash process. It's fast and done correctly you have zero silver in your gold.


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## anachronism (Nov 26, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> Lino,
> 
> I’m thinking thiosulphate will result in gold losses; however, based on basic chemistry, we know gold and silver do not like being in solution together.



That's not true. There is no aversion to them being in the same solution either acidic or alkaline. There are just different levels of loading, and different ways for them to precipitate which leads to the impression that they don't like being in there together.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thank you Jon.

When you say boil in a 50/50 hcl, what do you mean? 

Kindest,


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## anachronism (Nov 26, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> Thank you Jon.
> 
> When you say boil in a 50/50 hcl, what do you mean?
> 
> Kindest,



I mean you boil your powder in a solution of 50% HCl it really is just as it sounds. 8)


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

I’m using a hcl concentration of 32%.

Can that be applied? 

Thank you again.


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## anachronism (Nov 26, 2019)

50% means diluting full strength acid with the same volume of water. 

It doesn't even need to be exact. it can be 40% - the point is that adding water often increases the effect of an acid over using it in its concentrated form, so yes 32% (by volume as supplied) then diluted with water is fine.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Jon,

Apologies it’s early here my brain is still waking up.

I see what you’re saying. 

So the silver chloride is more soluble in a hot dilute hcl? I did not know that. Thank you very much - highly appreciated.

I will give this a go today.


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## anachronism (Nov 26, 2019)

Watch the colour of your gold as it comes to the boil. It will lighten up straight away. 

Stannous test the HCl wash solution and if any gold has dissolved- which it can in some circumstances then collect the solution and either use it as the base for your next dissolve or drop it as normal. 

In rare cases where you have a small amount of gold it can all dissolve but panic ye not. Just drop it again and repeat the process.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thanks Jon.

I will place a small amount of silver chloride today in 100ml hcl and will add 100ml water and boil.

I will drop you a pm later with my results.

Have a lovely day. Thanks again Jon.


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## anachronism (Nov 26, 2019)

Remember I'm giving you a process for cleaning gold that contains small quantities of AgCl not a process for dissolving AgCl.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Understood.

So what is the best way to dissolve silver chloride but not gold? 

Kindest,


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## Lino1406 (Nov 26, 2019)

Both ammoniac and thiosulphate dissolve silver chloride. Remember to make it alkaline. Hot HCl will not dissolve silver chloride, but very little. To dissolve gold and silver in thiosulphate, H2O2 is needed (carefully!)


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thank you Lino.

Will thiosulphate dissolve my gold too? Some studies are suggesting atmospheric oxygen intake is enough and others saying a strong oxidiser like peroxide needs to be added to achieve gold dissolution.

My gold will be in metallic form; I can already see quite a bit of my foils mixed in with silver chloride.

I’m going to test a small section of a 9k chain I have.

In terms of making it alkaline, I would add chlorine? Is bleach ok? I can purchase hypochlorite too at 15%.

I don’t want to use ammonia as I’m no where near experienced or professional enough to process the waste and prevent explosive reactions.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Sorry Lino, I just saw your comment re peroxide.

Yea that is what I gathered regarding metallic forms. But the study papers I was reading were vague and some even suggesting a simple water thiosulphate solution would dissolve it?


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## Lou (Nov 26, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> Jon,
> 
> Apologies it’s early here my brain is still waking up.
> 
> ...






No, it is most soluble in concentrated HCL wherein it forms [AgCl2]-

Yes, thiosulfate (by itself or in alkaline media which it is alkaline salt) will dissolve gold and silver in the presence of an oxidant. By itself in anaerobic conditions it can only dissolve already oxidized silver (I), be it AgCl or otherwise. 

Like everything in refining it is the context and needs of the situation.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thank you Lou!

So I’m safe to remove my silver chloride from my gold foils with the thiosulphate essentially? 

Will I need to raise the PH for this?


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## Lino1406 (Nov 26, 2019)

Do not use hypochlorite for alkalizing, even though it is alkaline. Use best ammoniac, add slowly to get a faint odor. Anmoniac is not dangerous in that range


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thank you Lino.

I can get that fairly easily and cheap. I have bundles of litmus too. I’m assuming a ph of 8-9 will be ok.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 26, 2019)

Jon, Lino and Lou, thank you for your time and advice.

As someone learning, the information I obtain here is beyond words.

I know I say it often but I can’t express how inspiring and encouraging it is.


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## kuli (Nov 27, 2019)

Hello

Sorry for antoher question but i still dont know. I my gols solution is gold and silver. What is the best wy to remove silver
1 hot water-wash seevral timw
2 hcl -boil
something else

please help me

regards

Matija


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## butcher (Nov 27, 2019)

kuli,
It is not easy to start to answer a question without knowing the details, or seeing what you have or what you have done previously.

Is this silver metal you wish to remove from gold or is it a salt of silver? If so which salt of silver do you have?

You have several questions spread around in different locations around the forum, keeping your questions in one post will help those trying to follow what you are doing or what you may be working on or with...


Without knowing details of what you have or what you have done, I cannot be of much help.

Without knowing details, If you can dissolve the gold into solution (without tin being involved), there normally is no reason to dissolve silver from the gold, the silver forms an insoluble chloride.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 27, 2019)

For anyone interested,

I have today dissolved silver chloride.

I placed some in sodium thiosulphate only, with water and heated.

I placed some in ammonia and thiosulphate.

My conclusion. I feel that the thiosulphate works perfectly on its own. I also placed a piece of gold filled jewellery in the thiosulphate only, the majority of chloride dissolved and so did the base of the gold jewellery. 

I am currently running a second thiosulphate over what was left of this one and will post results tomorrow but it is 100% dissolving chloride. Not as quick as I thought but certainly doing so. I have used a 1:5 mix of thiosulphate to water.

I did not like the ammonia addition at all as I didn’t think it added value and creates an unworkable fume environment. 

If you have metallic gold in with silver chloride, this is definitely the best way to separate that I have used.


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## anachronism (Nov 27, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> If you have metallic gold in with silver chloride, this is definitely the best way to separate that I have used.



And you are talking from your limited experience and assuming that your revelations are revolutionary on this forum.

Firstly your experience Is limited and secondly we all already KNOW Thiosulphate and what it can do, and in the processes used it's most often not applicable. 

Let's see your gold.


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## kuli (Nov 28, 2019)

Hello

first pic[/b]. These is my silver in solution. I just wanna to ask you what is the best methode that I could remove silver from filter paper




second pic is that i just filter the solution and i have some green-gray solution with golden pins. The best way to remove all that liquide.

recipie
150 g -cpu
put distiled water with muriatic-ratio 2:1
stay 1 week
filtration
and get some green-gray solution 

My question what is the best way to remove silver from solution.An dyes I read book and i can found the best way:

PLEASE HELP ME
Kuli


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## Lino1406 (Nov 28, 2019)

1. Burn the paper
2. Re-dissolve gold with AR


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## Jmk88 (Nov 28, 2019)

Hi Jon,

I do believe you advised me to do so in Dilute hcl; for avoidance of confrontation with you I didn’t argue and expressed gratitude for your efforts, despite knowing it was complete nonsense.

Ironic considering you accused me of misinformation.

I still didn’t run with it.

Here’s saturdays quarter ounce. 

And yes Jon, based on experience that’s what I found. You know the old doing thing people do? This was also reinforced by people obviously a lot more knowledgable than yourself Jon.

It takes all of 5 minutes to learn hcl diluted doesn’t do the job. But I’m sure your intent was to be helpful as always.

Kindest Regards


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## Jmk88 (Nov 28, 2019)

And Jon... even you must have smiled at my pun. It was fully intended.

:lol:


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## anachronism (Nov 28, 2019)

I run hot + dilute. Lou runs cold concentrated through a filter. It's two different ways to skin a cat.

Why am I even explaining myself though.


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## butcher (Nov 28, 2019)

Jon, You reported about a problem you are having with us letting others speak to you in such a fashion, and that you have been banned in the past for how you interreacted with the other members.

Here you provoked Jmk88 and he responded in kind with a similar tone or action as your request, and now you want the moderators to step in and stand up for you, and do your fighting for you.

I do not find it entertaining to watch you start a schoolyard fight and then expect some moderator to stand in and fight for you.

Now as a moderator if I do nothing, You will assume that you can say whatever you like. On your collective head be it.

Jon, if you do not like the response why did you provoke the response?
Nobody wants to see you humiliate yourself like that with a new member.




Jmk88, Your response was also poking at the bear. and also on the line of breaking the forum guidelines.

Are you men so childish that you need a third party to step in and settle you two down? and remind both of you of what this forum is about?










anachronism said:


> Jmk88 said:
> 
> 
> > If you have metallic gold in with silver chloride, this is definitely the best way to separate that I have used.
> ...





Jmk88 said:


> Hi Jon,
> 
> I do believe you advised me to do so in Dilute HCl; for the avoidance of confrontation with you, I didn’t argue and expressed gratitude for your efforts, despite knowing it was complete nonsense.
> 
> ...


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## anachronism (Nov 28, 2019)

Thanks Butcher. So kind of you.

I actually asked for something different if you had read what I really meant. Accusing me of running to teacher isn't good of you. I can fight my own battles but as usual you expect me to do so with one hand tied behind my back whilst you let others do as they please. The bias is as clear as day. One rule for me, another rule for everyone else. And now you publicly hang me out to dry just to prove my point. I hope that felt good, because it was actually quite despicable. Because what you've just done is validated the other person's actions and set a different bar for accepted forum behaviour whilst throwing me under a bus.

At least I know where I stand now.


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## butcher (Nov 28, 2019)

Jon,

I do not set the bar for forum behavior, I just try to live up to the bar set before me, I try to follow the rules, and treat others with respect...

I did not misread this.

I treat others, including you, how I would expect to be treated. 

I play no favors.

I did not validate any member's conduct or actions.

Jon, you are the only one that can throw yourself under that bus.

No this does not feel good, in fact It feels terrible, I do not understand why you keep pulling this kind of nonsense, it serves no good purpose.


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## Jmk88 (Nov 28, 2019)

Apologies I don’t know why I rise to it.

I’m responsible for me and it won’t happen again.


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## anachronism (Nov 28, 2019)

I guess it depends what you class as nonsense. 

We obviously have very different opinions on that. I don't think that calling someone out for being downright rude or even reporting them for it is nonsense. You tell people to take things to private and to use the moderation system to deal with things like this and then lo and behold you splatter it all over the open forum. That's making a nonsense of the system. You're out of order for that Richard. How can I or anyone else trust the system now?

If I cock up, I'm the first to apologise- here and in public. Whether it be for wrong advice, or reading something the wrong way and having replied badly. My advice to this guy wasn't wrong, it was right. It was just a different slant on how someone else does it with the same end result yet it's alright for the guy to effectively tell me that I'm idiot. That's nonsense. It would never have been tolerated in the past, but because its only Jon, it's alright and fair game. That's nonsense. 

You miss the point about the bar. You let something through that would not have been allowed previously and the bar shifts because anyone can just point at this thread and say "well he was allowed to say that in that way so how can you chastise me for it."

It's disappointing.


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## butcher (Nov 28, 2019)

Yes I Have to agree with you my friend, It is disappointing.

(nonsense) is like when someone is pushing someone for a response in the manner as you did, and then when provoking the other member calling out foul play.


I don't think that calling someone out for being downright rude or even reporting them for it is nonsense. 
Provoking that rudeness is wrong,


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## Williamjf77 (Nov 30, 2019)

Am I wrong by wondering why anyone would have gold foils and silver chloride together? Unless you are using AR to dissolve base metals and pouring off the waste before you start to dissolve gold then maybe, but I would just dissolve it all and just filter the silver chloride our. 

Is there some other way of creating silver chloride without a solution that dissolves gold? Like other than Nitric and chlorine?


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## butcher (Nov 30, 2019)

Cupric chloride can convert silver powder to silver chloride.
Ferric chloride will dissolve silver making silver chloride...


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## Wingedcloud (Dec 1, 2019)

Hello all,

Without wanting to be rude or anything, I guess this topic was taken to a subject totally different from the one I originally started.

After reading all the replies, I still can't understand how (if it is even possible) to recover the silver from my silver chloride+lead sulhpate filters.

If someone could point out a way, or maybe even point out an existing topic on how to process stored filters, I would be much appreciated.

Thanks again.

Winged


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 1, 2019)

If you already have both in a filter, I would probably dissolve the silver chloride with ammonia. I believe that will leave the lead sulfate behind (test a small sample first). Filter to separate the silver bearing solution from the lead precipitate. Then promptly reacidify the solution with HCl to avoid creating an explosive surprise. The silver will reprecipitate as silver chloride again, but without the lead. Then treat the silver chloride by your method of choice. I prefer the dilute sulfuric acid and iron method Lou described.

Dave


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## Jmk88 (Dec 2, 2019)

Dave,

I too am having this issue as I process gold fill. As you know.

Having played around for a week with thiosulphate and ammonia, I’m not overly impressed at the outcome.

Someone has suggested to me to react some hydroxide with ammonia hydroxide on low heat. They have said to cover my beaker to contain gases similar to ar. I understand this will liberate ammonia which I’m guessing will dissolve the chloride? 

I’m realising that without eliminating silver on gold fill, it’s close to impossible to expect efficient returns in terms of gold. 

I am able to obtain very weak nitric, 20-30%. The only other option I can think of is concert all chloride to oxide with lye and dissolve the oxide in weak nitric. 

Would either be worth me trying? 

Kind Regards,


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## Williamjf77 (Dec 2, 2019)

Diluted 68% by 50% nitric is only @34%, 20to 30 % nitric should be fine in my opinion, honestly when I do gold filled I just add nitric in doses to keep the reaction sort of calm. With the heat the water evaporates anyway





Edit for clarity


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## Jmk88 (Dec 2, 2019)

Thank you William.

I’m going to process 200 grams of 9ct gold fill (1/20).

Should be enough to gauge.

Although saying this, I checked my thiosulphate solution this afternoon and it’s definitely working, just not fast and you need to keep adding more water and thiosulphate. 

There’s just too much silver content in the filled/rolled material to process with anything other than nitric. 

In my opinion, it shouldn’t be treated any different to solid gold items. 

I’m going to covert my remaining silver chloride to oxide tomorrow and leave in Nitric for a day. I am going to run it in borosilicate flasks and filter all fumes into another flask to reclaim. Then I’m going to process some new material and run the oxide I make tomorrow in what I collect.


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## Jmk88 (Dec 2, 2019)

In short, copper chloride really isn’t the best leach for gold filled. Although it does seem to remove everything else with no issue at all.

The attached is what I have from a kilo of 18k rolled gold. I have 7 grams but I can see almost 3 times that trapped in silver chlorides and no amount of AR will get to them. 

I’ve wasted probably two litres of hcl to try and get them and probably 200grams of potassium nitrate and still can’t achieve. 

I don’t like even being within 10 metres of AR when it’s working it’s magic so I think I have to accept defeat on the AP process with this material.

I wouldn’t waste my time with pins or pcbs at the cost they are in Europe so that’s my conclusion; withou nitric, it’s very labour intensive and not efficient.


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## Lou (Dec 2, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> Thank you William.
> 
> I’m going to process 200 grams of 9ct gold fill (1/20).
> 
> ...



You will just get a mix of silver nitrate and silver chloride by doing that. The silver chloride from whatever chloride anion you did not rinse out of the AgCl when converting.


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## Jmk88 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hi Lou,

How can I deal with the excessive silver chloride I have? 

Can I wash the silver in water? Then oxidise and process in Nitric? 

I have so much gold left in amongst it I don’t want to lose it.

What would be the best way of removing it? My mind came up with oxidising it and then dissolving in nitric? 

Kindest Regards,


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## Lou (Dec 2, 2019)

Convert the silver chloride to silver metal.
Melt with borax, add nitre (if no PGM), add some dry cupels to the melt for the lead.

Pour into book mold. Plate out the silver from the gold in Thum cell. Collect the anode slimes; dissolve them in aqua regia or whatever your preference is, add sulfuric (or sulfamic if AR was used), dilute by half with ice, decant, filter the insolubles and precipitate the gold. Least fumey and cheapest way of doing it. 

Unless it's a lot of gold, in which case add more silver.


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## Williamjf77 (Dec 2, 2019)

Since you already have silver chloride with your foils, couldn’t you just dissolve the gold with the silver chloride and just filter out the silver chloride once the gold is is in solution?

If you carefully decant or siphon you could get the clean pregnant stuff through the filter first then add in the contaminated stuff which will take a while?

Anyway I had the same issue with gold filled even with nitric, only difference was my pregnant solution had the silver chloride in there, once I put the right filter to it it was no problem.


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## Lou (Dec 2, 2019)

The more AgCl, the more difficult to rinse out.


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## Jmk88 (Dec 3, 2019)

Thanks Lou. 

The items were in copper chloride for 3 weeks. I’m fairly sure it’s just silver I need to deal with. 

Even if I can reduce the chloride enough to get to the gold I think I would be ok.

I’m going to buy a plaster mixer today.


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## Williamjf77 (Dec 3, 2019)

Did you put fresh HCl to to convert any Copper 1 chloride to copper 2 chloride? 

I wonder if you could just convert the silver chloride mixed with the gold with the lye and sugar method,drain and wash , then just dissolve the silver out with the weak nitric.


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## Jmk88 (Dec 3, 2019)

I’ve had the 200g in some nitric for 4 hours. No heat. 

I will transfer to a Büchner flask tomorrow and place on heat depending on how the progress is in the morning.

My initial findings are a clear solution with nothing but foils. I can see base metal on some of the items which are all copper based, or certainly non magnetic. I incinerated all material first. 

I am a heavy smoker and I hate working g with AR or nitric, even HCL to be honest, anywhere but outside. So i will return when I have light. 

I think I would like someone to take something from this, rather than just ramble. 

Conclusion is, anyone thinking they can work with copper chloride and anything silver based can not.

To be clear, gold filled has a lot of silver. As base and alloys so it really isn’t worth even trying.


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## butcher (Dec 3, 2019)

If I was working silver with a chloride I would use ferric chloride it works very well as a silver etch.


Williamjf77 said:


> Did you put fresh HCl to convert any Copper 1 chloride to copper 2 chloride?
> 
> I wonder if you could just convert the silver chloride mixed with the gold with the lye and sugar method, drain and wash, then just dissolve the silver out with the weak nitric.



As mentioned above, are you dealing with gold or silver? are you washing gold powders or dealing with silver chloride with a few gold flakes.

Added to the silver stock pot, I would rather use iron and sulfuric to convert silver chloride to silver, and use a silver cell to collect anode slimes of gold or any PGM involved...


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## Jmk88 (Dec 4, 2019)

Hi Butcher,

I’m dealing with gold flakes in silver chloride.

Having been studying non stop the last week, i don’t think it’s efficient at all running this material in any chloride solutions due to the silver reaction.

I did consider the ferric but my understanding is that will generate enough silver chloride to be a problem again?

I think I will have to oxidise the chloride as best I can, then reduce with small increments of nitric.

My younger sister is a 2nd year bio chemistry student and she is saying that silver oxide isn’t very soluble in nitric which is on the contrary to my research?


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## butcher (Dec 4, 2019)

I’m dealing with gold flakes in silver chloride.
Then you have a dirty silver chloride. (possibly contaminated with other base metals with a few gold flakes) and whatever trash you have previously had involved with these salts of chlorides.

Having been studying non stop the last week, i don’t think it’s efficient at all running this material in any chloride solutions due to the silver reaction.
Only studied for a week and you are trying to use chemicals and chemistry you obviously do not understand?
I would say put the acids up for now and spend some time studying.
Forget about your gold fever.

If you are serious about learning forget about getting gold or silver. Put your effort into the study.

To learn very much in these skills it takes years and lifetimes of study and practice,
practicing something you do not understand or have no knowledge of, before educating yourself is just a waste of your time. our time, your chemicals and your health.
Begin with the basics, educating yourself, Hoke's book will answer all of your questions and more.

At this point, you have spent a week trying to learn a skill that many, many men have spent their whole life trying to learn or even master a tiny portion of these skills and sciences.


And before your first week of studying is through your mixing dangerous deadly chemicals you do not understand making dangerous reactions you do not understand?

I did consider the ferric but my understanding is that will generate enough silver chloride to be a problem again?

What? You already have a silver chloride, if I understood what you said above you were dealing with silver chloride.





I think I will have to oxidize the chloride as best I can then reduce with small increments of nitric.
Please explain more, why, how...
How many weeks have you spent studying this procedure?


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## Jmk88 (Dec 4, 2019)

Butcher,

I will convert the silver chloride using hydroxide. 

The purpose of my study was to find options to dissolve silver chloride.

Thiosulphate works but will cost a fortune. Same with ammonia.

So I have understood silver oxide is soluble in weak nitric. Therefore I will try that.

Going forwards I won’t use a chloride leach for silver content material.

The sole purpose of my recent studies was to understand options to deal with silver chloride.


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## nickvc (Dec 4, 2019)

When dealing with jewellery scrap silver chloride is part of the deal but it isn’t a huge problem if you are vacuum filtering and rinsing the chloride it should only leave 1-2 parts per thousand gold, this can be recovered by converting to metallic silver and running in a silver cell.
I really think you are wasting your time worrying over silver chloride as I said in jewellery refining it appears whether you want it to or not, small amounts of silver chloride will be dissolved in AR but it can be removed by diluting your solution with water and good filtering and even by boiling the gold powders in dilute HCl which will also remove much of the contaminates that co precipitate with the gold or that are dragged down.
You are chasing your tail for pennies when the goal is to recover the gold where the real money is, and with wet / chemical refining you will never get it all, there is always some left somewhere in the system whether in the crucible or undissolved or in really fine powders that settle over days or weeks.


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## butcher (Dec 4, 2019)

I can understand you experimenting to learn, but I do not see how you are going to learn by jumping from one process to the next willy nelly.

I would find one process and follow it through to the end.

before jumping into another process with a whole another set of problems or things you will need to learn to make it successful...


If you use nitric acid it should be free from chloride or sulfate salts, silver chloride is insoluble in nitric, silver sulfate also has a very low solubility...

I believe you may learn, the way you are going about it, but it just seems like a hard way to learn (to me anyway)...

I feel your problems come more from not understanding a process or how things work than a problem with the processes themselves, and then not following through with a process to make it work, or stick with it long enough to learn how it works and learn to overcome problems...

It is also difficult as we cannot see what you are doing or how you are doing it.
so with us answering your questions we cannot see or understand what you are doing. You only get part of an answer, and we only see part of the question, this is a terrible way to learn.


You say that you are going to use homemade nitric acid on silver you plan to convert to oxides,.
All I see here is a bunch more questions coming, about why that did not work...


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## Jmk88 (Dec 4, 2019)

The nitric experiment I described with nitrates and sulphuric didn’t work.

But yes I am enjoying understanding what reactions happen and what occurs.

This dissolved the gold also so I won’t be using that again.

I’m really not jumping; I’m trying one thing and when that is not working, I am trying another. 

What I’m trying to achieve was simple; process gold filled material without nitric. I understand now that isn’t feasible.

So now I am going to use nitric going forward.


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## butcher (Dec 4, 2019)

The nitric experiment I described with nitrates and sulphuric didn’t work.

Only because, you do not know how to make it work.

But yes I am enjoying understanding what reactions happen and what occurs.

You are not getting much of an understanding of how to make things work, but I can see you are gaining a good understanding of how things do not work the way you think they should...

This dissolved the gold also so I won’t be using that again.

Before long you will not be using any method of recovery again, you seem to be running low on options, ruling everything out that has some problem to overcome.

I’m really not jumping; I’m trying one thing and when that is not working, I am trying another.

That is jumping, jumping from one small problem out of the frying pan and back into another problem and an even hotter skillet.

What I’m trying to achieve was simple; process gold-filled material without nitric. I understand now that it isn’t feasible.

Sure It is feasible and simple, and there can be more than one way to accomplish it, but only with understanding.

So now I am going to use nitric going forward.

So, now you have a lot more to study if you plan on learning to use nitric successfully...
Be sure to study safety before you even open a bottle of nitric or try to make it.


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## Williamjf77 (Dec 4, 2019)

My last gold filled batch, I ended up with a lot of small flakes mixed in with junk, my solution was to keep the bulk clean material separate, process that then hit the filters with all the flakes and whatever metal salts with AR then filter out the crap.

Precipitated then washed with hot dilute hcl, redissolved and was left with gold and silver chloride which was after help here, filtering out the silver chloride.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 4, 2019)

I'm with Nick on this. Don't worry about the silver chloride. You got nitric acid so separate any solid pieces of metals still in there, then add a tiny bit of nitric acid so you form aqua regia (add HCl if you need it). Heating and stirring, even boiling with a cover will speed up the dissolving of the gold. When the gold has dissolved you let it settle and test that you really have gold in solution.
Then you pour off any clear liquid. Add some more water, for example double the volume of the sediments left. Stir it well and let it settle before pouring off the clear water. Repeat that a couple of times until the liquid looks clear or only gives a weak reaction on a stannous test.

Each dilution would mix any remaining gold chloride with equal amounts of water so when you pour off the clear portion you cut in half the remaining gold chloride. Theoretically, after pouring off 7 times you have less than a percent of the gold left with the sludge.

The liquid you poured off is probably quite weak, so it might be easier to cement it on a copper bar instead of trying to precipitate it.

From this point, refine it as normal gold.

The remaining sludge should contain most of the silver and a small part gold. Treat it as silver chloride, for example iron and sulfuric, but many methods exists. The remaining gold should follow the silver from this point. When you have enough silver you could set up a silver cell and the last gold should end up in the anode sludge. There might be quite a lot of other junk in the silver chloride so don't be surprised if only part of it converts to silver.

But I agree with Butcher too, you should study a lot more. For example treating your sediments with nitric acid would have created aqua regia and dissolved the gold. 

And I think your sister is wrong about silver oxide not dissolving in nitric acid. Silver oxide batteries can be dissolved in nitric acid. Are you sure she didn't think of silver chloride?

Göran


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## Jmk88 (Dec 4, 2019)

Thank you Goran.

Very much appreciated.


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## Jmk88 (Dec 4, 2019)

Sorry Goran,

To add; the idea to add nitric was with the idea of first washing all the final foils in water twice and then converting to silver oxide. 

I was then going to add nitric to dissolve only the silver oxide following conversion with the intention of leaving just the foils.

Would the water washes (boiled) remove all chloric presence so to avoid dissolution of the gold too? 

Nick - thank you too I only just saw your comments. Understood. I will filter the majority of the copper chloride solution which I can be careful with to do the majority of the separating. I will then convert to silver as per your advice.

Kind Regards,


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## modtheworld44 (Dec 5, 2019)

Jmk88

You should use the concentrated ferric chloride if you want less silver problems.Ferric chloride will hold the silver in solution while Hot and Concentrated giving you the upper hand your looking for.When you get done running the process (most or almost all base metal is removed) filter while hot with out adding water and your silver problem will be gone.Use hcl washes No dilution to keep silver in solution.From here take foils and run them in AR . Do not use water in this process (dilution drops out your silver) and while on heat add only concentrated ferric chloride THE END .Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44


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## Jmk88 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hi Mod,

Thank you so much. 

I have just boiled in some and it literally disappears. I’m astounded.

It gives more than enough window to filter just the foils which I’m doing now. 

Thank you sir.


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## butcher (Dec 5, 2019)

I thought you were giving up using chlorides on silver. :lol:

Ferric chloride or (your old waste used AP solutions or concentrated Cuprous/ferric chloride solutions) hot and concentrated will gobble up silver, copper and iron...


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## Jmk88 (Dec 5, 2019)

I’m so happy it worked!! I can’t explain.

It gives you just enough time to let it separate from the gold before falling back out. 

I wish I could buy Mod a whisky or three.


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## modtheworld44 (Dec 5, 2019)

Jmk88 said:


> I’m so happy it worked!! I can’t explain.
> 
> It gives you just enough time to let it separate from the gold before falling back out.
> 
> I wish I could buy Mod a whisky or three.



I'm happier than you I believe,right now at the moment of reading your words. You see I know more about refining than most are willing to give me credit for.You followed my instructions and the end result was what i said it would be,and your words of conformation is why i'm happy.you had no questions and understood the procedure ,with the end results being exactly what you were looking for.Thanks in advance.

P.s You really made my day!!!!!

modtheworld44


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## Jmk88 (Dec 6, 2019)

That’s lovely to hear Mod! 

I think sometimes a bit of love/positive energy is missing from here.

Your advice was simple, objective and you clearly read my previous posts so not to cause further confusion and or ask me 15 questions back.

You understood the issue I was facing which you’ve likely picked up has been plaguing my progress for weeks.

Thank you again, I will certainly keep in touch with you as I have been asking this question for weeks.

I think from what I gather, most beginners struggle with it. 

Have a good one Mod, God bless you.


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## butcher (Dec 6, 2019)

Ferric chloride hot and concentrated almost to syrup will dissolve silver metal, along with many base metals copper iron and so on, the silver forms silver chloride AgCl and because of the high chloride concentration along with the solubility at these higher temperatures, we can get the silver chloride AgCl to go into solution as AgCl2, which when diluted and cooled will reprecipitate AgCl.

Quote from Wikipedia on silver chloride:
AgCl dissolves in solutions containing ligands such as chloride, Silver chloride reacts with these ligands according to the following equation:
AgCl(s) + Cl(aq) --> AgCl2(aq)

Basically one of the ways that I have discussed how I reuse my waste solution from old cupric chloride leaches.

ferric chloride works well with a few types of ore to recover gold or silver...

FeCl3 works great for dissolving copper or brass as part of a process of recovery of silver contact points and other materials... 

Although you could work sterling silver or other silver using ferric chloride, I hate silver chloride and avoid creating it anywhere possible.

ferric chloride can be regenerated and reused similar to how cupric chloride can.

Iron in a solution likes to easily form other oxidations states some of which are not all soluble, these are not normally a problem, for example, silver will not alloy with iron, or the gold will dissolve in aqua regia or other solution leave most of the insoluble iron behind...

Jmk88,
The fifteen questions that people ask you back is for a reason.
It is how we communicate with each other and solve problems.
Like why did your homemade nitric acid not work well on silver?
Like how did you separate the home nitric acid from your potassium sulfate salts?
How are you going to treat the waste?

Because you do not answer the questions or choose to ignore them you do not learn why we cannot discuss why, or you will not even learn why you are asked these questions.
Sometimes the question is to get you thinking.
Sometimes the question is to find out how much you understand or do not understand, so we can help.
Sometimes the questions are to start a discussion to find out what the problems are, to troubleshoot...
There are many reasons we ask you questions back, in order to help.

You seem to be very good at asking questions of us, but not very good about answering the questions we ask in turn, in order to help you...

When you ignore these questions, you do not find out the answer to the question, or of why the question was even asked, and the discussion cannot be a two-way question and answer, and you do not learn the answers, and you spend a week trying to learn some kind of answer.

So not to cause you any further confusion, I will not ask you to consider answering any of the 15 questions back. I say this with "loving positive energy" but if you do decide to answer our questions maybe we can have more of a two-way conversation, or question and answer session where we both can learn from it.


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## butcher (Dec 6, 2019)

modtheworld44,
Thanks for helping Jmk88, good job.


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## modtheworld44 (Dec 6, 2019)

butcher said:


> modtheworld44,
> Thanks for helping Jmk88, good job.



No thank you for all the knowledge you have taught me.priceless.



modtheworld44


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## butcher (Dec 6, 2019)

Because I will listen to what you have and other members said and then go do some research for myself, to learn.

I do not know if you have noticed through my years of refining and being on the forum I have almost never asked a question to get help or to learn how to recover or refine, I never needed to ask questions, there were always members who discussed things I did not know or understand, the new members already ask all of the silly questions, the information for me to study was already written on the forum, also with study of Hoke's book and other sources.

Thank you modtheworld44,
Thanks again for helping Jmk88, and thank you again for helping me to learn more, I have learned as much from you as you may have picked up from my ramblings on.


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