# Anyone recovering Gallium



## allanwcoty (Nov 27, 2008)

Starting to study and search for information about Gallium. Just wondering if anybody is recovering it and if anyone has any for sale? Have a Happy Thanksgiving. allan


----------



## Shecker (Nov 27, 2008)

I know where there is a large deposit of gallium but I am not doing anything with it.

Randy in Gunnison


----------



## Lou (Nov 27, 2008)

I don't recycle it but I've got a couple hundred grams. I'm looking to buy a few kilograms of it. Do you want any of it when I do?


Lou


----------



## bmgold (Nov 28, 2008)

What kind of price would you charge for a little vial of gallium to play with? Sounds like a neat metal (melt in your hand)

Any idea how it might be extracted from leds? I'd expect it would take thousands or maybe millions of them to get a drop of this metal but hope I'm wrong.


----------



## allanwcoty (Nov 28, 2008)

Any ideas on what will naturally alloy/combine with gallium.

Shecker, if you don't mind, what are the deposit characteristics? What type of host rock, gallium content, other metals/impurities content.

Lou, do you know of any shipping restrictions? Also, any idea of the cost for a kilogram? How much trouble to work with and purify? 

Have a great day. allan


----------



## Lou (Nov 28, 2008)

It depends on the purity, every time you go purer the price goes up. 

Here is probably the best source of gallium:
http://www.alfa.com/Alf/laboratory_chemical_suppliers.htm

Goodfellow sells it and so does Sigma and Fisher (but they are supplied by Alfa IIRC). All with big markups.

I have accounts with these suppliers and can order them if needed. I also get a bit of a discount.

I would say order from China as it's closer to a buck a gram, but after having had nothing but horrible experiences with ridiculous shipping and customs BS I really can't recommend it.

It is in the same hazard class as mercury with respect to its shipping classification (that is DOT 8). It also attacks aluminum just like mercury does. In fact, gallium is a superb substitute for ''amalgamation'' in that capacity. It's also relatively nontoxic. Only thing I dislike about it is how it sticks to everything and stains your hands (wear gloves though!).


Gallium is cool stuff and kids love it. Indium too is cool because kids get a kick out of how soft it is (I can stick a fork in it).

As far as recycling goes, it's very easy to do--gallium dissolves nicely into base. That can then be dissolved into various mineral acids. The electrolysis is easy after that. Georg Brauer's _Inorganic Preparations_ has a great procedure for recovering and refining gallium metal.


And bmgold, how many grams?


----------



## bmgold (Nov 28, 2008)

> As far as recycling goes, it's very easy to do--gallium dissolves nicely into base.



probably a dumb question but does "base" mean alkaline or base metal like copper?

and Lou, I checked on the prices and it looks like it is more than I can spend just for something to play with. I don't really know how big of volume 25 grams is or if a gram or two would be enough to see the melt in your hand effect (in a small glass sample vial). $10,$20,$30 I could talk myself into but $114 I would rather spend on silver or gasoline or ???


----------



## Lou (Nov 28, 2008)

I might be able to "hook" you up on some for cheap out of a large lot. I'm working on some gallium compounds for an entirely different project so I'm about to make an order.

Working a deal on a kilogram would probably not work too well unless I buy a 5 kg lot.


edit-- by base I mean sodium hydroxide or other caustic alkali. Consequently, molten gallium also dissolves quite a few base metals. I don't even know which ones or to what extent. This makes me a bit curious as not much is reported on it except the obvious need to keep it away from aluminum (which it will utterly destroy).


Lou


----------



## 4metals (May 15, 2009)

I read an interesting article about alloying gallium with aluminum to produce hydrogen. Just drop the alloy in water and hydrogen abounds. Aluminum metal has a huge affinity for oxygen which is why metallic aluminum doesn't exist in nature. If you put pure aluminum in water it will immediately oxidize the surface and stop the reaction as a surface coating. By alloying with gallium, just a few percent as gallium, the oxidation doesn't stop at the surface but proceeds to react the entire piece and form Aluminum oxide when dropped in water. Copious amounts of hydrogen come off the surface of the water. 

Check out this link http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

You end up with a pile of aluminum oxide mixed with gallium. Imagine a nation of hydrogen powered cars fueled by this technology and a new industry set up to recycle the aluminum oxide into pure aluminum and refine the gallium and start over.


----------



## Lou (May 15, 2009)

Yep, it works as advertised. The gallium can be leached out with sulfuric acid and electrolytically recovered. 

Gallium interferes (much like mercury) with the formation of aluminum's tough and resilient oxide layer, helping it slough off and expose fresh metal to water. Aluminum is a rather reactive metal.

Going further, the nascent hydrogen produce can be used in lieu of hydride reducing agents in organic chemistry. Pity not much (if anything) has been published about that...


----------



## markqf1 (May 15, 2009)

Looks like you guys ( or should I say they) may be on to something revolutionary!

You would have to go high tech with some investers.

Oh yea, ... no smoking allowed.  


Mark


----------



## 4metals (May 16, 2009)

With aluminum having an atomic wt of a shade under 27 that means a pound of the aluminum gallium will release something in the neighborhood of 0.055 pounds of hydrogen. 

It would be interesting to know how much hydrogen is required to run a 1 hp motor, then we could figure out some relative fuel efficiency and see how a pound of aluminum relates to a gallon of gasoline. How many miles per pound!

Then the greenies can figure a carbon footprint to manufacture a pound of aluminum and they can save the planet. 

And the metal refiners in the world can recycle the alumina and gallium back into an alloy and put a hurt on big oil.


----------



## Lou (May 16, 2009)

At most, it would be an energy storage medium--there is still electricity involved in electrolytically processing the aluminum AND the gallium (who have somewhat similar chemistries). Aluminum production is a major world power user, and gallium is a byproduct of that (Bayer) process.

Hydrogen, insofar as mass is concerned, is an incredibly efficient fuel. Unfortunately, liter for liter (volume) it is inefficient.

I roll my eyes when I hear talk of putting liquid hydrogen fueling centers for a hydrogen economy. People can barely handle gasoline safely; how could they hope to use a cryogenic liquid which is much more flammable?


----------



## semi-lucid (May 16, 2009)

4metals said:


> With aluminum having an atomic wt of a shade under 27 that means a pound of the aluminum gallium will release something in the neighborhood of 0.055 pounds of hydrogen.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how much hydrogen is required to run a 1 hp motor, then we could figure out some relative fuel efficiency and see how a pound of aluminum relates to a gallon of gasoline. How many miles per pound!



I did a quick Google search for: "heat value of gasoline", and it took me to Wiki. 

Regular Gasoline = ~47 MJ/kg
Hydrogen = 140.4 MJ/kg 

So by weight, Hydrogen has about 300% of the energy of gasoline. Gasoline has a density of about 6.073 lb/US gal, so it would take about 2 pounds of hydrogen to equal one gallon of gasoline.

At 0.055 pounds of hydrogen per pound of aluminum/gallium, it would take 36.36 pounds of aluminum/gallium to equal one gallon of gasoline. (2/0.055)

So to equal a 20 gallon tank of gasoline, you would need 727 pounds of aluminum/gallium, plus however much water you need, plus the complicated system of tanks and metering equipment that would be necessary. Gasoline needs only a simple non-pressurized tank, with a pump and filter.

My opinion is; forget hydrogen as a mobile energy source. Propane is the way to go, clean and easy to liquefy, and reasonably dense.



> I roll my eyes when I hear talk of putting liquid hydrogen fueling centers for a hydrogen economy. People can barely handle gasoline safely; how could they hope to use a cryogenic liquid which is much more flammable?



And if you let air get to it, it can liquefy O2 from the air, and then you have LH2 and LO2 mixed together in the same container. :shock:


John


----------



## Lou (May 16, 2009)

Crude analysis--you forget the efficiency of a gasoline engine versus that of a fuel cell, and further the HIGH efficiency of an electric motor with say, regenerative braking. Crunching those numbers ought not to be so simple. 


I have a sneaking suspicion that someone's equations are wrong and more hydrogen is obtained than you would imagine.

2Al(Ga) + 3H2O --> 3H2 + Al2O3 is the ideal. However, I imagine that aluminum hydroxide, Al(OH)3 is produced as well, which ought not to give hydrogen. Being honest, my main interest in this reaction is not for its use in hydrogen production, but rather for its other applications as a reagent for chemical reactions.


----------



## semi-lucid (May 16, 2009)

Lou said:


> Crude analysis--you forget the efficiency of a gasoline engine versus that of a fuel cell, and further the HIGH efficiency of an electric motor with say, regenerative braking. Crunching those numbers ought not to be so simple.



True, but I still haven't seen a mass production fuel cell with a reasonable cost. Especially for heavy applications like heavy trucks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the time being, all we have is ICE's.

I don't remember the typical efficiency of an Otto cycle engine, I think it's in the 20% to 25% range.

0.055 pounds of hydrogen doesn't seem like much from a pound of Al plus the weight of the water. :? 

John


----------



## semi-lucid (May 16, 2009)

I finally went and read the artical. It halfway covers all of this.



> "Most people don't realize how energy intensive aluminum is," Woodall said. "For every pound of aluminum you get more than two kilowatt hours of energy in the form of hydrogen combustion and more than two kilowatt hours of heat from the reaction of aluminum with water. A midsize car with a full tank of aluminum-gallium pellets, which amounts to about 350 pounds of aluminum, could take a 350-mile trip and it would cost $60, assuming the alumina is converted back to aluminum on-site at a nuclear power plant.
> 
> "How does this compare with conventional technology? Well, if I put gasoline in a tank, I get six kilowatt hours per pound, or about two and a half times the energy than I get for a pound of aluminum. So I need about two and a half times the weight of aluminum to get the same energy output, but I eliminate gasoline entirely, and I am using a resource that is cheap and abundant in the United States. If only the energy of the generated hydrogen is used, then the aluminum-gallium alloy would require about the same space as a tank of gasoline, so no extra room would be needed, and the added weight would be the equivalent of an extra passenger, albeit a pretty large extra passenger."



One pound of aluminum = two kilowatt hours = 7.2 MJ 
Hydrogen = 140.4 MJ/kg = 63.82 MJ/pound / 7.2 MJ = .1128 lb H2 per lb of Al.

J


----------



## qst42know (May 16, 2009)

I would suppose once this reaction is started it cannot be stopped. I can't see dozens of vehicles venting flammable gas while stuck in a traffic jamb.

Then again that would be one way to clear the highway :lol:


----------



## markqf1 (May 17, 2009)

You could always have a feeding mechanism to control the rate at which the aluminum is introduced.

Just whip up to the station and say " give me 5 lbs. of aluminum pellets please, ... make that the high test" .  

Mark


----------



## Lou (May 17, 2009)

Well, it's the hydrogen that goes to the fuel cell which is turned into electricity which is then used for an electric motor. Extra hydrogen will just go to make extra electricity for charging up batteries.


----------



## EVO-AU (Oct 9, 2009)

Semi-Lucid:

I just found your post about hydrogen fueled vehicles. There are two hydrogen fueled vehicles in the Hendersonville County, NC area ( used to be three, but I haven't seen the other one for some time ) and they are completely self-contained, except maybe for a water source. So - who needs hydrogen fuel centers around the country ?

Phill


----------



## shyknee (Oct 9, 2009)

lou 
get the drawing board out 
those hydrogen fuel cells produce heat as byproduct, so add on a sterling engine for added electricity to charge the battery


----------



## shyknee (Oct 9, 2009)

back to gallium
Now is the time to get your hands on some while the price is down
there has been a slow down in its use in flexable solar cells. 

some one on ebay was selling an alloy he claimed melted in your hand that has no mercury could this be your gallium ?


----------



## T3sl4 (Oct 10, 2009)

Burning aluminum is stupid, you throw away something like 1.5V just making hydrogen with it, which itself hardly makes 1.2V. Hook a cable onto that damn aluminum and use it as a primary cell. Then hook up the fuel cell in series and get all the energy you can from that aluminum.

It's still inefficient, messy, hard to maintain and etc. Plus, aluminum can only be smelted where there's an awful lot of cheap electricity -- around hydro plants, usually. Solar won't be cheap enough for a long time to waste it on something as profane as aluminum smelting, but producing liquid fuels is a potentially useful application, especially once petroleum and substitutes get too expensive to produce. There is an electrochemical reaction known to fix CO2 to methanol; if it can be turned at high efficiency and high quantity, we'll have carbon-neutral gasoline with no need for a world shortage of lithium.

Tim


----------



## Wildman48 (Aug 2, 2022)

bmgold said:


> probably a dumb question but does "base" mean alkaline or base metal like copper?
> 
> and Lou, I checked on the prices and it looks like it is more than I can spend just for something to play with. I don't really know how big of volume 25 grams is or if a gram or two would be enough to see the melt in your hand effect (in a small glass sample vial). $10,$20,$30 I could talk myself into but $114 I would rather spend on silver or gasoline or ???


Amazon sells a little vial for about 12 bucks along with a tiny mold to pour it in.


----------

