# separating metals in a pre 82 penny



## St.wise-professor (Sep 29, 2011)

Just wondering if anyone knows a way to separate the zinc from an older penny which is 95% copper and 5% zinc? The copper in them is worth 2x the face value... would it be worth doing on a large scale? Thanks.


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## acpeacemaker (Sep 29, 2011)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-12-14-melting-ban-usat_x.htm[stt][/stt]


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## St.wise-professor (Sep 30, 2011)

Ouch! That didn't come up on any of my google searches. Thanks for posting that.


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## acpeacemaker (Sep 30, 2011)

No problem...I was thinking at one point they lifted the penny law, and then re-instated it at a later date.


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## jimdoc (Sep 30, 2011)

You don't have to melt them, just sell on Ebay as-is.

Jim


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## butcher (Oct 1, 2011)

But if you sold on ebay over the limit of "ligitimite exchange" allowed by law and the man you sold them to was melting could you not be considered part of that, and be convicted also? 

I would suggest just take then to to the bank cash them in and go buy gold with the money.


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## jimdoc (Oct 1, 2011)

butcher said:


> But if you sold on ebay over the limit of "ligitimite exchange" allowed by law and the man you sold them to was melting could you not be considered part of that, and be convicted also?
> 
> I would suggest just take then to to the bank cash them in and go buy gold with the money.



Many people save copper pennies and nickels so that when (not if) the dollar fails, they will still have something of value. If Ebay buyers melt them, that is beyond your control. It is actually a waste of fuel, because like junk silver coins they are identifiable in the current form, not a blob of unknown metals.

Jim


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## acpeacemaker (Oct 1, 2011)

For a long time they have talked about taking the penny out of currency. Would this law hold water still if that took into play? Would copper prices drop? Or would the pennies hold more value due to not being made anymore.


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## jimdoc (Oct 1, 2011)

Current pennies are around 97% zinc and copper plated. It is only pennies before 1982 that are mostly copper. So I can't see that affecting copper prices.

http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1982-2007-Lincoln-Cent-Penny-Value.html

http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1909-1982-Lincoln-Cent-Penny-Value.html

Jim


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## triffid (Nov 18, 2011)

Yep illegal to melt or tear them apart.


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## K9-TSN (Nov 18, 2011)

St.Wise, a coin comparitor for pennies will automatically sort copper pennies from zinc pennies.

Check youtube.com and type in coin comparitor.

K9-TSN


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## pizzaman55792 (Nov 19, 2011)

Check out the penny bullion section at www.realcent.org and you will find all the info you need to about copper pennies.


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## tcfootball (Jan 20, 2012)

Would it be legal to sell the copper pennies for a profit? I read somewhere this group was selling gaylords of pre 82 pennies for more than face value touting the "these are worth 3x face value" yada yada.


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## Geo (Jan 20, 2012)

it is illegal to deface US currency.you may can sell them for 3 cents apiece but if anyone gets caught melting them for the copper its a federal crime.


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## jack_burton (Jan 21, 2012)

It's not legal to sell them outside the United States.

Otherwise, if someone wants to pay $3000 for $1000 (face value) in pennies in the name of "Investing in Copper", there are no laws against it save you can't sell US currency to anyone outside the US.


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## tcfootball (Jan 22, 2012)

jack_burton said:


> It's not legal to sell them outside the United States.
> 
> Otherwise, if someone wants to pay $3000 for $1000 (face value) in pennies in the name of "Investing in Copper", there are no laws against it save you can't sell US currency to anyone outside the US.



Thanks


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## element47 (Jan 23, 2012)

I bought one of these just to play around with. Hooked it up to a 12 volt supply (I use a wall wart BUT I filtered & regulated the output with an LM7812 which is probably overkill...the point being, it requires only very small current) Sometimes I will get a box of pennies from the bank and sort them out when I'm feeling brain dead and need something to do. I can usually find the copper ones visually, but I generally miss a few, especially if the copper ones are really shiny and new looking. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160703078870?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1761wt_1139

It worked flawlessly, right out of the box. No adjustments needed, just figure out a way to physically mount it and cobble together a couple of cardboard boxes to keep the goodies separate from the baddies. I use a zinc penny as my sample, that way, the solenoid "reject" mechanism is only exercised about 1/10 of the time, on the copper cents. That's about the average yield...9-10% coppers. 

I have gotten full rolls of copper pennies, every one. I have also gotten all-wheat penny rolls. It's still in my opinion kind of a goofy thing to do, but it keeps me off the streets.


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## jack_burton (Jan 23, 2012)

Theres a video floating around somewhere of an interview with a guy who works out of a Brink's wharehouse. He does this on a massive scale, think $200,000+ in pennies. He sorts them and is selling them to hedge funds who are looking for copper investments.


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## element47 (Jan 23, 2012)

I saw that video. I cannot deny the video of the man standing there, apparently in his warehouse, with his forklifts, with the racks of pennies, with his Ryedale separator machines, with huge tubs full of copper pennies. I can't see the feasibility, unless his rent is free, unless the fuel for his forklifts is free, unless his insurance is free, and he and his employees are willing to work for free. But you know, I don't know everything, in fact there's a lot I don't know anything about. I really, really do not get how he pays any sort of nominal overhead out of whatever margin and storage fees he's able to create. I recall that $200K figure, as well. Vault rates (to the customer) typically run about 1% a month. That's $2K a month. From which I assume he pays his 10,000 sq ft warehouse rent. And wages. And the security monitoring. Get my drift?


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## MMFJ (Jan 31, 2012)

element47 said:


> I saw that video. I cannot deny the video of the man standing there, apparently in his warehouse, with his forklifts, with the racks of pennies, with his Ryedale separator machines, with huge tubs full of copper pennies. I can't see the feasibility, unless his rent is free, unless the fuel for his forklifts is free, unless his insurance is free, and he and his employees are willing to work for free. But you know, I don't know everything, in fact there's a lot I don't know anything about. I really, really do not get how he pays any sort of nominal overhead out of whatever margin and storage fees he's able to create. I recall that $200K figure, as well. Vault rates (to the customer) typically run about 1% a month. That's $2K a month. From which I assume he pays his 10,000 sq ft warehouse rent. And wages. And the security monitoring. Get my drift?


Haven't seen the video, nor researched tons of exact pricing, but ran across this post and had some ideas that might make this a bit more enticing than your description;

1. Let's presume the face value of the pennies is $200K
2. (a bit of a wild-card here, though pretty important in the final figures) - Just what did he pay for them?
a. and he acquired them at/near FV
b. acquired them on consignment, with a promise to pay X% as he sells them off (most likely, with NO up front costs!)
c. acquired them at 2X or something and anticipates sorting them to find 'good' ones (most unlikely)
3. he sells them at 3x plus 'minimal' storage fee of $25/m per pallet, $15/m 1/2 pallet, $10/m quarter pallet (minimum)

Ok, with all that, is there any money to be made? *YES*
First, there's that 3X - X% to look at - what if X% were as "HIGH" as 150% (what many would consider an "unreal" ROI - most would take much less)? There's about $300K profit....
even if folks were 'in the know' about copper prices and wanted the whole 300%, there's STILL money to be made
- you can put a LOT of pennies on a pallet and taking your $2000/m figure for the vault space, 

One penny has a weight of 3.11 grams
3.1 grams = 0.00683433013 pounds
http://www.enno.com.sg/manutest.html states their pallets will hold a 'stagnant' weight of 1650 lb (750 kg)
approx. 241,000 copper pennies per pallet (taking into account some weight is lost to containers, etc.
At that, to store $200K of pennies takes about 83 pallets, bringing in about $2075/m. That is presuming that each pallet ($2410) is bought by one person (not likely). If you sell them in $1000 lots (a nice number), then you are charging $15/m, which creates more like $2490. Now, take that one more time and sell them in $100 lots and charge the $10/m storage rate (seems a bit high to me, but hey, we are dreaming here...), you get to some pretty serious cash - $240/m per pallet = $19,920/m! (note that even if this is stored in a vault and not palletized, these numbers still work, they just may need a bit of other language)

My bet is that the pennies were purchased in bulk at $.015 or so - certainly less than $.02, from folks that want to get rid of the bulk storage after they sorted through and took the 'good ones' out of there. The money was made from the good coins, then they sold the bulk off for what they had in them, etc. (my coin store sells bulk bags like this) and that a combo of the storage scenarios above are done (bulk discounts, etc.), but I can see where there is some cash to be made on such a deal.

As for other bits you mentioned about forklift gas, employees, etc., I think there isn't much of that needed. Once the pennies are 'on the shelf' (with the warehouse charging a few bucks per pallet for each in/out movement), the only 'work' is keeping track of the numbers - who owns how many 'shares' basically - a simple spreadsheet.

Then, of course, there is that 'work' of getting out some good marketing - to the point folks will talk about this venture and wonder just how he's making any money!


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## element47 (Feb 1, 2012)

Very interesting! I imagine a standard $25 box of 50 qty rolls could be like an "ingot" in the world of pennies. If one could develop the storage fee business, might be a feasibility there. About 17 lbs. 

Of course, if you, as operator of such a business, sorted your own pennies from raw rolls (eg; paid face value plus your sorting and re-rolling effort) for them; sold them for 2x, then that is a totally risk free means of doubling (100%) on 9% (typical frequency rate of pre-82's) of your money, and current value is much closer to 2.5x. Then you store them for people and you are making great money. The beauty is that investment is risk free (well, other than the Canadian and Cuban coins you get stuck with) and your risk of getting into a car accident when you drive to the bank. Oh yeah, and a hernia from lifting the buckets of pennies. 

And then, theoretically, you might find a numismatically valuable coin in your searchings! Heck, I've even found a dime or two!


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## greatgems (Feb 19, 2012)

Anyone want to buy canadian Copper pennies i can ship them to you. I beleive you can melt them down in the usa cant you?


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## jack_burton (Feb 19, 2012)

I live in the United States. Can I purchase items from mint.ca? 
To ensure that American residents always benefit from the most competitive exchange rates, all items in our catalogues are listed in Canadian dollars only. If you are in the US and paying by credit card, your company will automatically convert the payment to US funds at the time of shipment.

Should you wish to pay by money order or certified check, please call 1 800 268-6468 and one of our customer service representatives will be happy to assist you.

The United States Customs and Border Protection (USCBP) requires that a US-based Ultimate Consignee or Foreign-based Ultimate Consignee or receiver of the goods provide a U.S. Social Security Number (SSN) or Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employer identification number for any order equal to or exceeding US$2,000.

In order to comply with US Customs regulations, the Royal Canadian Mint will now require your SSN or IRS number when you place an order that equals or exceeds US$2,000 in value. This information will be recorded in the US Customs Service computer system for customs purposes only.

(from: Canadian Mint FAQ Page)

Note it is also illegal to melt down or deface Canadian currency, in Canada.


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## greatgems (Feb 19, 2012)

Excellent who wants $1900 face value Canadian Pennies will sell 5% under copper value


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## golddiggingdude (Mar 12, 2012)

acpeacemaker said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-12-14-melting-ban-usat_x.htm[stt][/stt]



They say the reason for the law is because the coins are needed for commerce. So that should include all kinds of destruction then. So in that case, there's thousands and thousands of 10 year old kids out there who should be arrested and jailed. Because every time I've gone to an amusement park in my life there's been coin-operated machines that will destroy your penny and shape it into an engraved oval. 

And you have to deposit $.50 to have it done. The law's the law. But let me guess, amusement parks have a gov't waiver. The law's the law.


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## Harold_V (Mar 13, 2012)

golddiggingdude said:


> acpeacemaker said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-12-14-melting-ban-usat_x.htm[stt][/stt]
> ...


I get your point, but there's a considerable difference between the random few that put their penny in a machine to have it altered as compared to the guy that sets out to capture all of the pre '82 pennies. 

Some time ago, there was a guy on fleabay that was trying to sell 1,000,000 of those pennies. Destroying that volume of coins couldn't be tolerated, and that's what would happen if scrappers discovered they were an easy source for copper alloy. Think of hundreds of scrappers gathering pennies every day. Wouldn't take long to make a serious shortage of those worthless coins. 

Harold


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## bisjac (Apr 20, 2012)

i didnt think zinc (in all situations?) melted down. or maybe the 5% that would be in a pre82 penny.
i assumed the zinc would burn away as a gas when you melted the thing. basically solving the issue of seperating the metals.

me and my girlfriend are pre82 collectors. every week we buy a $25 box of pennies from the bank to sort them out.
btw, its good to be keeping nickels right now as they have gone beyond the value of 5cents. i predict 2013+ nickels will be made of zinc


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## Oz (May 12, 2012)

bisjac said:


> I predict 2013+ nickels will be made of zinc


I am expecting and waiting for the coins to start being made of plastic.


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## joem (May 12, 2012)

Oz said:


> bisjac said:
> 
> 
> > I predict 2013+ nickels will be made of zinc
> ...


Like our bill denominations


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## FrugalRefiner (May 12, 2012)

Oz said:


> I am expecting and waiting for the coins to start being made of plastic.


Already are! Visa, Mastercard, American Express, etc. 

Physical money is a cumbersome and expensive way to handle commerce anymore. It's long term future does not look good.

Dave


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## goldsilverpro (May 12, 2012)

It's interesting to note that 10 pre-1982 pennies in good shape weigh 31.1g = 1 troy ounce.


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## FrugalRefiner (May 12, 2012)

And if you need a calibration weight for a digital scale, nickels are very handy - 5.00 grams each fresh from the mint. Use as many as your scale requires. It will probably cost less in nickels than a calibration weight of the same mass, and you're guaranteed to get your original purchase price back when you sell! 

Dave


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## joem (May 12, 2012)

FrugalRefiner said:


> And if you need a calibration weight for a digital scale, nickels are very handy - 5.00 grams each fresh from the mint. Use as many as your scale requires. It will probably cost less in nickels than a calibration weight of the same mass, and you're guaranteed to get your original purchase price back when you sell!
> 
> Dave



Measured 4 canadian nickles in my pocket 4 grams each


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## FrugalRefiner (May 12, 2012)

joem said:


> Measured 4 canadian nickles in my pocket 4 grams each


joem, my apologies for my U.S. centric thinking.  It's so easy to forget the international scope of this forum. United States nickels are 5 grams.

Dave


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## joem (May 12, 2012)

FrugalRefiner said:


> joem said:
> 
> 
> > Measured 4 canadian nickles in my pocket 4 grams each
> ...



No worries we get them in our own change all the time, when I get one I'm going to see if my new jewelry scale is a accurate to 5 grams.


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## FrugalRefiner (May 12, 2012)

I grew up in northern Ohio and we got Canadian money all the time. Wish I'd been collecting those 999 nickles you have up there! Sorry for hijacking the thread with this talk of nickels. 

I've been holding my pre-82 pennies for a while now. I remember how we picked the pre-64 silver coins out of bank rolls of dimes and quarters when I was a kid. Now they're worth over 20 times face value! I don't expect my nickles or pennies will ever perform that well, but I just *love* any coin that's worth more than its face value. :lol: 

Dave


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## joem (May 12, 2012)

FrugalRefiner said:


> I grew up in northern Ohio and we got Canadian money all the time. Wish I'd been collecting those 999 nickles you have up there! Sorry for hijacking the thread with this talk of nickels.
> 
> I've been holding my pre-82 pennies for a while now. I remember how we picked the pre-64 silver coins out of bank rolls of dimes and quarters when I was a kid. Now they're worth over 20 times face value! I don't expect my nickles or pennies will ever perform that well, but I just *love* any coin that's worth more than its face value. :lol:
> 
> Dave



Back on Pennies: One day all Canadian pennies will perform as well since our government will phase out the penny this year.


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## Golddigger Greg (May 13, 2012)

Just to stay on topic; I'd been sorting coppers for a few months when they announced the pennies' demise.  I figure it never hurts to have more bases covered. Like was mentioned by an earlier poster, I would keep the pennies in their present form.

Oh, and the weight of the pre-1982 Canadian 5-cent piece: 4.54g (100 makes a pound!)


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## roberts (Dec 5, 2012)

I am considering dong a small operation like that of the guy in portland. Not sure if money to be made yet, currently I am averaging about 20 percent cooper on boxes off my bank. I am only hording for now, but will probably sell enough on a regular basis to make enough cash to make it worth my while. $100 face value sells for $170 or so on ebay. I saw nice melted bars go for 7 bucks a pound. Might be worth melting when it becomes legal to do so.


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## element47.5 (Dec 6, 2012)

20% yield is darn good. From the pennies I have sorted (maybe $200 worth, not a lot of pennies, really, and not a lot of excess value certainly, but a fair amount of mind-numb work) my yield is much closer to 9%. My problem is that $25 worth of pennies is a 17 lb "brick" and I am just not wanting to accumulate more than the 3 or 4 of them I already have. 

I definitely recommend getting one of those "coin discriminator" thingys for about $20 on ebay. I would NOT buy a full-on Ryedale machine. This (only getting the discriminator part---and, you'll have to fabricate some means of supporting it) does not solve the problem of feeding them into the slot one at a time...but that can be done almost without looking while you're watching TV or something. Although after you look at zillions of pennies, you'll be able to rapidly tell the difference without reading the dates. The old brown ones are clearly goodies, but if you're just looking at "brown" you'll miss plenty of very shiny good ones that look new. Likewise, newer (bad) pennies have a way of becoming corroded (perhaps due to the zinc) that can fool ya into thinking they are old. I find the best indication (without looking at the actual date, and ignoring obvious old brown ones that will jump out at you over time) is the depth of the strike. The older ones had a much deeper, stronger strike. Subtle at first, but again, after you see bazillions of pennies and start paying attention to them, it becomes more obvious. 

I vote thumbs down on even thinking about melting. I think copper ingots are kind of a goofy thing in the first place...but there are lots of logistical issues with melting and pouring copper into clean looking ingots, especially when you consider the SIZE implied...you think anyone is going to want a 1 oz copper bar? No...we'd be talking a pound, a kilo, and for that, you need BIG heat. And consider: Copper is between $3 and $4. You would be selling ingots for more than "spot", of course, but do you think you could melt and pour 1 pound of copper for less than $3-$4 in fuel? Yes, in a factory environment, in bulk, but on a onesie-twosie basis, I think not. Copper does not freeze from melt cleanly in air, it tends to acquire a pretty ugly, scabby appearance without a controlled atmosphere. I very strongly believe that the guys who sell clean ".999" (seriously, do you think they really assay them?) copper ingots on ebay purchase odd cut-off pieces of thick copper sheet or copper bus bar and saw it up. They do not IMHO melt and ingotize.


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## roberts (Dec 6, 2012)

element47.5 said:


> 20% yield is darn good. From the pennies I have sorted (maybe $200 worth, not a lot of pennies, really, and not a lot of excess value certainly, but a fair amount of mind-numb work) my yield is much closer to 9%. My problem is that $25 worth of pennies is a 17 lb "brick" and I am just not wanting to accumulate more than the 3 or 4 of them I already have.
> 
> I definitely recommend getting one of those "coin discriminator" thingys for about $20 on ebay. I would NOT buy a full-on Ryedale machine. This (only getting the discriminator part---and, you'll have to fabricate some means of supporting it) does not solve the problem of feeding them into the slot one at a time...but that can be done almost without looking while you're watching TV or something. Although after you look at zillions of pennies, you'll be able to rapidly tell the difference without reading the dates. The old brown ones are clearly goodies, but if you're just looking at "brown" you'll miss plenty of very shiny good ones that look new. Likewise, newer (bad) pennies have a way of becoming corroded (perhaps due to the zinc) that can fool ya into thinking they are old. I find the best indication (without looking at the actual date, and ignoring obvious old brown ones that will jump out at you over time) is the depth of the strike. The older ones had a much deeper, stronger strike. Subtle at first, but again, after you see bazillions of pennies and start paying attention to them, it becomes more obvious.
> 
> I vote thumbs down on even thinking about melting. I think copper ingots are kind of a goofy thing in the first place...but there are lots of logistical issues with melting and pouring copper into clean looking ingots, especially when you consider the SIZE implied...you think anyone is going to want a 1 oz copper bar? No...we'd be talking a pound, a kilo, and for that, you need BIG heat. And consider: Copper is between $3 and $4. You would be selling ingots for more than "spot", of course, but do you think you could melt and pour 1 pound of copper for less than $3-$4 in fuel? Yes, in a factory environment, in bulk, but on a onesie-twosie basis, I think not. Copper does not freeze from melt cleanly in air, it tends to acquire a pretty ugly, scabby appearance without a controlled atmosphere. I very strongly believe that the guys who sell clean ".999" (seriously, do you think they really assay them?) copper ingots on ebay purchase odd cut-off pieces of thick copper sheet or copper bus bar and saw it up. They do not IMHO melt and ingotize.



Good points! I do have a Ryedale and I have all the parts to build one. Now that I finished the semester in college, I might get around to putting mine together.


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