# how to build an acid resistant hood & scrubber



## 4metals

Building an acid resistant hood.

A good sturdy acid resistant hood is the backbone of any refining and or assaying lab. They do get expensive if you buy them from a scientific supply house. To build one yourself you need to use 3/4" plywood and build the equivalent of a doghouse with a 4 foot length and 30" depth. It should look the attachment when done.

Next google spray on bed liners on your computer. I've used Line X brand and Rhino and both have worked well. Find a local guy doing the work and take the hood to have the inside of the hood sprayed. Make sure he gets the corners and the bottom extra heavy. If you're flush with cash he can do the outside as well, for me I used good epoxy paint on the outside. If you live in an area where alot of fiberglass work is done, that is also an option, both work well, it's all about price.

If you make the bottom like a "boat" with a lip in front it will also serve as a spill containment because something always spills, especially when you don't have containment. 

Now all you need is legs or a table to put this on, keep in mind you will be processing in 5 gallon buckets so plan your height accordingly. 

If you add a "U" channel vertically on both sides of the opening, you can add a sheet of 1/4" plexyglass as a sliding door. Make the channels long enough to contain the plastic sheet from the bottom in the closed position to the top in the open position. Place a stop so the door always stays 3 or 4 inches up from the bottom, and drill a pin so it can be pinned in the open position.


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## Platdigger

Beautiful!....


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## goldsilverpro

You can also have a coating, in a variety of plastics, "chopped" on. The last time I had a hood coated, I found a local guy with the equipment that made tornado shelters. He "chopped" on a coating of PVC fairly inexpensively. I also used the same PVC coating on wooden silver cells with great success.

I don't know exactly how these "choppers" work. I think it is molten plastic, chopped into small increments by a "chopper" gun and sprayed on. No solvents are involved. Maybe, bed liners are applied the same way.

Once, I had a 12' long hood made from bare plywood and I used it for about 5 years with no noticeable deterioration. I used two fair sized belt-driven squirrel cage blowers, in tandem, run off the same motor. The motor sat on top of the hood. I never, never incinerated in that hood and never had any problems.


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## Oz

Because of the incineration factor I have been gathering slate from old pool tables when I find it free. I have no difficulty machining it to size however for containment I would be interested in suggestions as to sealants for the bottom meeting the sides that will hold up over time.


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## thteh

4Metal, thank you so much. My main fear about refining is about toxic fumes. Now with this hood design of yours I would reconsider about quitting because the money from gold recovery is simply irresistable.
Would it be necessary to attach an exhaust fan to the duct in order to suck out the fume easily? Will these fumes be harmful to your neighbor and the environment I mean when it gets outside over the roof? I hope it just neutralise in the air otherwise it (the hood) is still not the solution that I want. Thank you again in advance.


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## goldsilverpro

> Would it be necessary to attach an exhaust fan to the duct in order to suck out the fume easily?


Yes. This particular hood has an opening of 3' x 4' = 12 sq.ft. When it's wide open, for excellent exhaust you'll need an exhaust fan of 100 cfm/sq.ft., or a total of 1200 cfm. You must also consider what the exhaust fan is made from if your design pulls the fumes through the fan. Steel will rust out quickly.



> Will these fumes be harmful to your neighbor and the environment I mean when it gets outside over the roof?


Yes. The fumes are heavy and, under calm weather conditions, they can tend to hug the ground. They will corrode metals - especially cars and metal buildings. Also, any usage of nitric acid will produce very visible red-brown fumes which can readily be seen by the authorities.



> I hope it just neutralise in the air otherwise it (the hood) is still not the solution that I want.


The fumes won't necessarily be neutralized but they will tend to disperse into the air. How fast depends on the weather.

A fume scrubber to handle 1200 cfm would be quite large, due to the great amount of air dilution of the fumes. If you want a wide open hood, you should consider building a multi-layer fume scrubber like the one described by 4metals in another thread. A sealed dissolving system, with little or no air dilution, would require a much smaller scrubbing system.


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## 4metals

The hood described in the earlier post is only the hood to contain the fumes, it is part of a system which removes the fumes from the hood and passes them through a scrubber. The scrubber is a device made of a large diameter PVC pipe which is filled with tower packing. 

Tower packing is basically obstructions to the air path which provide surface area for the chemicals we are pumping down through the scrubber to react with the fumes we are sucking up through the scrubber. They can get expensive if you purchase packing from a manufacturer so there are options to improvise. Wiffle balls work great, but they probably cost too much as well. Ladies hair curlers work too. Marbles work but that’s what chemists use in smaller columns, I’d venture a guess that a 12” diameter by 6 foot deep bed of marbles would be too heavy to be practical. One option is to cut slices of plastic soda bottles into rings about half to three quarters of an inch thick. Don’t use the ends because we do not want any pockets that will trap air or liquids. Anything you can think of to provide a corrosion resistant surface, that doesn’t trap liquids or gasses, that isn’t too heavy, that will allow the air to flow through the spaces will work. 

We will be able to use a considerably smaller scrubber than required for a 1200 cfm opening of the hood I described earlier because scrubbers work when there is some contact time available. So if you’re trying to scrub 1200 cubic feet of air and you want it to stay in contact with the packing for a few seconds, you need a large scrubber. We will only be scrubbing the fume generated from an enclosed reaction so we can do a good job with a smaller sized scrubber. 

The way we get to split the fume and do double duty with one corrosion resistant blower is by building a PVC manifold to exhaust the fume to the scrubber. Using a 3” PVC pipe, and 3 tee’s and one 90 degree elbow make a manifold for 4 equidistant inlets. Bush down the openings to inch and a half. Our reaction vessel is nothing more than a spackle bucket, our contained reaction vessel is a spackle bucket with a lid. In the lid we drill a 2” hole off center and we connect a section of flexible tubing from the hole in the lid to one of the holes in the manifold. The piping of the manifold is directed to the bottom of the scrubber, below the packing support and above the liquid level. 

The blower we need is an 8” intake blower, usually either PVC or FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) Now from the blower we go into a reducing wye, it has to either be or be bushed down to 8” in the top, 6” out the bottom, and 4” out the wye. The throat of the wye has to be a full 8” so an 8” wye and a 8 by 6 reducer on one leg and a 8 by 4 reducer on the other leg will work. The 6 inch drop goes into the top of the hood and the 4” drop runs to the top of the scrubber. In the 6” line, just above the hood where you can reach it, add a blast gate damper. This will allow fine tuning between the 6” exhaust and the scrubber. 

The reason I make a 4 port manifold is that this scrubber will handle 1 if not 2 ports working together. Cap off the unused ports. The damper on the 6” line is for adjusting the exhaust so the suction going into one of the manifold ports is just enough to suck the fume so it doesn’t overflow the container, and not hard enough to suck out all of the fume. The goal is to allow the fume to be in the scrubber for as long as possible and this is achieved by sucking in as little red fume as necessary. 

The liquid in the scrubber should flow at a rare of 3 to 5 gpm from the pump up to the spray nozzles. We will use liquid caustic to keep the pH over 10. A corrosion resistant pump is needed here.


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## 4metals

Some thoughts about spray nozzles.

The water and caustic that performs the scrubbing of the fume is delivered through a pipe to the top of the scrubber where it sprays on the packing, wetting the surfaces so they can interact with the NOx. To assure that the most surface is wetted as possible a manifold should be made forming an “X” over the top of the packing. Into this manifold you can either insert plastic spray nozzles to disperse the liquid or my personal favorite is to drill 1/8th inch holes. 

Whether you use nozzles or holes I can assure you they will clog eventually, either from caustic buildup or from generic floating crap clogging the holes. Because of this the scrubber has to be built in such a way as to facilitate periodic cleaning of the nozzles. 

There are many way to skin a cat but the two I have used work like this.

Option 1
Do not glue at least 1 coupling leading to the blower in the 4” PVC duct. Also do not glue the cap which serves as the top of the scrubber. This will allow you to remove the top of the scrubber as needed to clean the nozzles. Another benefit of this method is it allows you to witness the flow coming from the manifold you have made and judge if there should be more or less holes. If you use this method, enter the side of the scrubber with a PVC bulkhead fitting followed immediately by a PVC union, followed by a cross tee at the center and the necessary 3 legs and end caps. This allows you to open the union and take the manifold to the sink and clean it in hot water. The down side to this method is the crusty growth you will get as caustic drips find their way out of the unglued fittings. Not hard to clean if you keep up with it.

Option 2
Make the “X” of the manifold using 2 straight pipes install 2 bulkhead fittings which allow you to thread in a bushing and pass a pipe through into the scrubber. Mount the bulkheads at 90 degrees so the pipes cross, and mount one 1” higher than the other. Cap the pipes and drill the holes, add unions outside so you can disconnect to unthread and clean the nozzles. Connect the piping together and run it to the pump. Mark the outside of the assembly so you know which way the nozzles spray, this way when you re-assemble they are spraying at the packing not up into the stack. If you use spray nozzles instead of holes, make sure you have clearance to get through the bulkhead, because the nozzles project downward about 1”. This method is a little more difficult to construct.

One helpful precaution is to add an in-line strainer to trap the floating crud before it clogs the nozzles, remember to clean it regularly.

This scrubber, because of height considerations, does not have a mist eliminator. What that does is it allows the mist to condense on its surface and drip back into the scrubber. If you choose to use spray nozzles, the finer mist may require you to add a mist eliminator. If you are running your scrubber, and your kids come in and say “Gee Daddy it’s raining and the sun is out” you need a mist eliminator.


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## thteh

So nice. Thank you 4metals.


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## Frankk12

I have been doing research on the subject of 
how to build an acid resistant hood & scrubber

The reading material posted by 4metals is good 
Some of it I dont understand but i have to read it a few times

Anyway If I look at this picture hood_and_scrubber_001_162 
I see a pipe over a pot with smoke coming out of it 
and that smoke goes into a container filled with water in the bottom
the air passes through that water and i guess the toxic fumes are now clean.

Isnt it enough to do what i just explained above.

Can someone explain to me what the other things are in this post 
for example what is 4metals saying here





> Wiffle balls work great, but they probably cost too much as well. Ladies hair curlers work too.
> Marbles work but that’s what chemists use in smaller columns, I’d venture a guess that a 12”
> diameter by 6 foot deep bed of marbles would be too heavy to be practical.


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## dick b

The smoke you refer to is wrong. That is the packing in the column. The water and ph reducer spray down on the packing, absorbing the fumes and rendering the exhaust harmless. That is what your quote is refering to. Hope this helps you.


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## 4metals

Frank

What you refer to as smoke coming out of a pot is actually what I referred to in the text as a length of corrugated flexible pipe. The exhaust will never be strong enough to suck a fume into the manifold without the aid of ducting. I can't say I ever passed an art class in college, I guess my drawing reflects that.

The quote you pasted is an example of what can be used as tower packing. The column is referred to as a packed tower, what you pack it with depends on what you can get at the right price. These were just examples of things that work.


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## Frankk12

Hi 4metals & dick b
Thanks for your help
This is begining to make more sense.
I still have to read this post a few times to get all the details
Since I have your attention 
I have a few Questons

Question 1
I was thinking about buying this pipe to put in a CHEMICAL FUME HOOD
Like what you have in this post
http://shorinternational.com/refining.htm
Shor ARVT Pumping Table System..................$4,495
Is this a good idea

Question 2
would it not be better to make 2 holes for gloves and do all the work by sticking your hands in the gloves


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## 4metals

The Shor system is not cheap, either for the hardware, instructions etc. or for the chemicals to operate the system. From a business standpoint, the one really profiting from using their system is them! With the money you are talking about spending for it you should be able to set up a chemical refining setup which can produce gold cheaper than the Shor system. The reason it will be cheaper is no one will be gouging you for chemical prices.

It all depends on your needs and how much commitment you want to make to learning a process. I'd opt for classical chemical refining. 

A glove box will work but the restrictions they place on your maneuverability is a big price to pay.


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## Frankk12

Hi 4metals
Thanks for your help
I would like to summarize what I have understood from this project
1) the bucket is in the hood
2) your pour acid on the gold
3) reaction takes place
4) hole no 1 sucks up the toxic fumes I guess it needs a motor
5) what happens to the fumes that escape through the pipe no 2
6) Wiffle balls work great or One option is to cut slices of plastic soda bottles into rings about half to 
three quarters of an inch thick. Is this here I marked no 3

I will definitly have more questions tommorow for today that is all
Thanks


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## Frankk12

sorry i forgot to send the picture


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## 4metals

The fumes which enter pipe 1 pass through the scrubber, the fumes that pass up pipe 2 bypass the scrubber. One blower supplies the suction for both pipes. 

The fumes going out pipe 2 are not the noxious fumes, they are diluted by the total volume of air passing through the hood. The noxious fumes pass through the scrubber where they contact the solution which is pumping down through the scrubber and they are neutralized. 

The point you labeled 3 is where the tower packing goes. 

I am sorry I cannot explain this any more clearly, possibly because I wrote this and understand it completely I've missed some details which I'm leaving out. Maybe someone else reading this can chime in here and explain what seems to be missing.

I have edited my original schematic, maybe it is clearer now.


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## dick b

4 Metals:
You didn't mention that to get the air to flow thru the scrubber, that the blast gate needs to be closed. 

So far I like all that you and Harold have posted about this subject. 

I would rather see all of the air flow to go thru the scrubber. Even if there is low toxic fumes or smoke leaving the hood there are some. By scrubbing all of the air and by adding paper air filter elements to the hood discharge into the ductwork you are improving the air quality emissions that are emitted from your lab.

This is just a personal choice that I think is beneficial.


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## semi-lucid

Frankk12

Try this one:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4284&highlight=scrubber

John


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## 4metals

Dick B

The blast gate should not be closed completely. Based on the diameters of the legs of the wye an 8" blower should supply exhaust to both the scrubber and the hood. If your packing provides enough air space for flow. The damper is only in there to increase flow in the column if it is too low from the resistance. If you went out and spent big bucks on tower packing you probably wouldn't need the damper. If you close the damper the flow through the scrubber will be too high and thus ineffective. 

The goal is just enough flow through the scrubber to capture the fumes coming off the top of the reaction, not strong enough to suck out all of the fume.


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## DNIndustry

I have 3 of these. Ill sell one if you want to pick it up.
(the 8ft ones)


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## Frankk12

> Wiffle balls work great, but they probably cost too much as well. Ladies hair curlers work too. Marbles work but that’s what chemists use in smaller columns, I’d venture a guess that a 12” diameter by 6 foot deep bed of marbles would be too heavy to be practical.
> 
> Hi guys
> I am getting more help than i ever expected
> Thanks
> 
> Everything is becoming clearer
> If you look at the quote
> That is what I don't understand
> which part of the picture do they fit in
> Thanks again


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## Frankk12

How about this
Can this picture be related to whats in the quote

https://photos.buckeye-express.com/pictures.cfm/99002


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## qst42know

Hey that's my photo :lol: 

4metals scrubber is for much larger reactions, and instead of returning the condensate as this tiny marble condenser does, a scrubber neutralizes the vapors with lye water sprayed into the top of his scrubber. 

The media regardless of the scale provides a long meandering path for the vapors to travel giving an extended reaction time. Glass marbles can provide the long path but would be expensive and difficult to handle in a large quantity. Obviously glass marbles are too heavy for larger reactions. 

For a big scrubber cut lengths of PVC pipe would be more manageable and easier to come by than thousands of cut soda bottles. 

In this small marble *condenser* the fumes are returned to the reaction to keep working. In a *scrubber* as 4metals is describing the goal is to prevent acid vapor pollution exhausted into the atmosphere from a much larger operation.


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## Frankk12

Hi qst42know

Where the number 4 is in this picture
Is that where these items go
You place your water ,lye, and some ladies hair curlers over there
I hope this is right because I really am new to this stuff






> Wiffle balls work great, but they probably cost too much as well. Ladies hair curlers work too. Marbles work but that’s what chemists use in smaller columns, I’d venture a guess that a 12” diameter by 6 foot deep bed of marbles would be too heavy to be practical.


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## qst42know

The lye solution collects in the bottom at number 4. The packing or media is above in the column. The solution is sprayed on top to drip down through the packing while the fumes flow upward and outward.


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## Frankk12

Hi qst42know


So you place 
Ladies hair curlers 
where no 4 is

Is it so that the smoke is better absorbed by the water


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## goldsilverpro

Those so-called high dollar saddles that are typically used for packing are a mathematical design to produce the maximum surface area per unit volume. They are also called Tellerettes (sp?). I think they were designed by Edward Teller for the Manhattan Project.


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## qst42know

From 4metals drawing the curlers, wiffle balls, or cut lengths of tubing or whatever media is light in weight, holds air spaces and is unaffected by lye water or acid vapors is in the section marked "packed height 6 feet minimum". Number 4 is the lye solution.

And yes it provides far more surface area for vapors and lye to react.


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## Emil

Frank,
I can think of no better product to slow fumes and air down inside of the scrubber than aquarium bioballs used inside of fish tank filter towers. They come in various sizes, and I've used the one inch size. There purpose is to create a huge surface (plastic) for liquid to flow over.

http://www.northcoastmarines.com/bioballs.htm

This link will give you an idea as to shape and price. Each manufacturer has there own design and they all work.

Look at the diagram of the Scrubber. Below the 3" pvc pipe is where the neutralizing solution is, the fumes enter the scubber from the 3" pipe into an air pocket above the solution and below a grating( the horizontal line of vertical lines). The bioballs or whatever you use sits on top of the grating and is represented by the squiggly lines in the diagram. The solution rains down and the fumes are pulled upwards being slowed in there upward path by the media and the adjusted speed of the blower.

I hope this description is helpful.

Emil


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## 4metals

Emil,

You are right bioballs will work very well because they actually are designed as tower packing. They are not cheap either, if you're going to spend the money for bioballs you can buy scrubber packing from Maspac for about the same amount.


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## Emil

4metals,

I looked at the maspac items and there very similar to the bioball. Same principle.

For those that want a link to the Maspac packing:

http://www.maahaul.com/maspac.asp

A link to one type of bioball is in my previous post.

4metals, I have not yet found a fully plastic inline fan at a reasonable price. If the scrubber cleans the discharge air of all fumes is a fan that won't corrode necessary.

My fume hood has an opening of 2.5 sq'. What size scrubber would you recommend so that the exhaust air is clean.

Does the Sodium Hydroxide neutralize Sulfuric Acid, Hydrochloric Acid, AP and AR. What is the ratio of SH to water, and what should the PH be maintained at.

I'm sorry to bother you with all these questions, I want to be sure I'm doing it correctly.

Thanks,
Emil


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## Frankk12

Hi Guys Thanks for your help
Then this pvc tower needs maintenance and should have an opening like a small door.


$6.99 is not a lot of money for APPROXIMATELY 80 BIO BALLS/GALLON
Do they melt and they you have to have new ones there.



If you look at number 1 in picture 
hood_and_scrubber_001_16222.jpg
you have an opening

why cant you make it like it is in this picture

Also 1 guy trying to sell one of those $30,000 dollar systems said that his reactors are made with titanium 
In what we are talking about there is no heating 
How come he said this
Thanks


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## Emil

Frank,

"$6.99 is not a lot of money for APPROXIMATELY 80 BIO BALLS/GALLON 
Do they melt and they you have to have new ones there"


The ad that you looked at said "100" bioballs for 6.99.

I doubt that the temperature inside the tower will reach the melting point of plastic.

Emil


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## Frankk12

This is a quote from that person that makes those machines









> If you look carefully my total price is 30% cheap than Italian machines. And we use titanium reactor. Not glass or plastic


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## 4metals

Emil,

Yes a corrosion resistant blower is necessary, if you go to US Plastic http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.asp on the left side go to Pipe, Duct & Blowers and you will find some blowers. Generally an exhaust should be 100 cubic feet of flow per square foot of opening. you should have 250 cfm. The caustic scrubber will handle all of the acids you mentioned and it is maintained at a pH of 10 or higher.

Frank, 

The packing will get hot enough to melt but you cannot incinerate or burn or roast anything in a hood served by a plastic chemical scrubber. The scrubber is for fumes of chemical reactions.

The only door you need is as described for servicing the nozzles as long as you don't burn anything in the hood. 

The photo you posted is from a post I posted in a thread about building an assay / refining lab. I built that system as well and in the text I mentioned that the manifold does not have to be in a hood but there were some precautions which were described and you should go back and read them. 

Titanium reactors withstand aqua regia and they don't break like glass can, the down side is there is no visibility.


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## 4metals

Emil

I've used these before and they last, have replaceable parts and are the least expensive I've found. This is the part where everybody who has found a better deal jumps in.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=58&product_id=11551&varian


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## Frankk12

4metals & Emil
Thanks for your help and everyone else too
Fiberglass Lab Blower this link is really fantastic
I think I will start this refining business immediately
One thing I am thinking about that might be a concern
I will refine the gold and try to sell to jewelers
What if they don't want to buy the gold in grains and they want stamps on it
Also what if I don't refine it pure enough
1 more thing what happens if I have too much looses


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## 4metals

Frank

I think you should perfect your refining skills immediately, everything else will follow. Practice and you will get it right, then all of your questions will be answered.


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## Frankk12

Hi 4metals
Thanks for your help
I should also spend a lot of time reading whats in this forum


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## Emil

4metals,

Thanks for the help. I am approaching the collecting of escrap, anything plated, karat gold as a hobby. I would only sell the gold to buy more gold.
In this way I will learn to refine. My mistakes will be small. No hurry. 

My problem is the fan. Before your scrubber posts I was going to use a PVC Y fitting and use a metal inline fan with a cfm of 300 for a 2.5sqft opening. No scrubber. Using the fan through a y fitting would protect the fan from fumes since it would not be between the hood and open air. Then along came the plans for a scrubber.

An $880 fan is much to expensive for a small operation. I was hoping that a scrubber would purify it's output air enough so that the fan placed above the scrubber would not corrode the fan. The scrubber is an absolute necessity but not at such a high price. Back to the drawing board.

Frank, think small until your wise enough to think big. good luck.

Emil


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## 4metals

You can always do what an old Russian chemist told me 30 years ago about air pollution. Always refine at night with plenty of wind!


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## Emil

An old Russian and an old American think alike. At last DETENTE.


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## 4metals

Emil,

I've never had to design a scrubber without an in line blower. Your point of the expense for a hobby interest is completely understandable. The resistance of the tower packing in the scrubber is overcome by a blower which can draw enough suction (usually measured in inches of water column). Possibly a combination of a less restrictive packing and a strong blower using the wye configuration to keep it out of the air path may work. I know it works for just a hood, it would require a separate blower for powering just the scrubber. 

I'm sure if it's do able there are guys on this forum who can rig it to work.


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## Emil

4metals,

Thanks for your concerns. A Y system with an inline fan pushes the air through and out into open air. In the process it sucks the air from the Fume Hood up and out to open air. Could this be done through the scubber, if necessary using a larger sized variable speed fan reduced to 4" pipe? 

A 4" pipe from the top of the hood down to the bottom of the scrubber, 4" out the top of the scrubber into the bottom of the y out the top of the y to open air. The fan attached to the remaining opening of the y sucking air from the room and not being corroded.

How well do you think it wood work. what are the negatives.

Emil


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## 4metals

Do you mean like this drawing? I would guess it can work, for a small operation you can downsize it for one, inch and a half inlet. The hood would have to be exhausted separately using a similar arrangement.


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## Emil

4metals,

If the scrubber is exhausting the fumes why would I need a second system?

Emil


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## 4metals

When you open the bottles of acid and fumes leak out, when you open the top of the vessel that is reacting and fumes leak out, I guess you could call it insurance, it is a minor amount but you wouldn't want your face in it either.


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## Emil

Thanks 4metals for your time and effort working this problem through for me. I think it will work and I will give it a try. The only question left is the ratio of Sodium Hydroxide to water to a PH above 10. I'll work that with trial and error.

You have been a great help to me and others on this forum solving our problems and I will add very patient.

Thanks,
Emil


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## qst42know

This new air syphon arrangement looks like a job for my garage sale electric leaf blower. They are a bit on the noisy side but I had been considering the spare one I have for a while. :wink: I think I paid a whole $2 for it. 

Still the biggest problem is how to isolate a work space in the garage so I don't have to find new homes for my metal tools and things.  

Rust sucks. :evil: 

What I could really use is an out building like Noxx has. 

Great work shop by the way.

P.S. Using this syphon type exhaust, It wouldn't surprise me if you needed a much larger diameter stack.


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## Frankk12

If you look at this picture you will see 2 scrubbers
I am not sure but I am guessing that the fumes go through scrubber 1 and then it goes through scrubber 2


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## AKDan

Actually looks like there may be more than just the two visable ones, since they are label #1 and #3.


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## Frankk12

http://www.unitedpmr.com/our_process.php
here is another picture of a scrubber and a refining system
would anybody like to make a comment


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## dick b

Frankk 12:

I'm interested to know just how large a refining operation you are trying to build. Just how many troy ounces of gold do you want to be able to refine in a day?

What I see you posting and seem interested in certainly is beyond the interest of a hobby refiner.

If you are interested in starting a business to refine commercially, then what your looking at is appropriate. If you just want to start out as a hobby, then you need to scale down you ideas on what you need to get started.

I'm not trying to put your ideas down, but you seem to me to be trying to think too big.


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## Frankk12

Hi dick b
How are you
I have been in the jewelry business for a long time
I have done refining for about 4 times out doors
For the moment I cant do any practicing because I don't have the place for it 
I will rent a place in about 1 month
That is why I need to improve my refining skills.
I know what that I don't have much in refining skills but I think I can do it

I don't exactly know how much I would like to refine
That depends on how good i will do this and some other factors
Also if I will be able to compete with the big boys
That is a factor I have to think carefully about
For example there is JM
But for them 1 kilo is not enough of a quantity to refine

So if I can refine 1 kilo a day that would be a good start 
If I can increase that capacity to a few kilos that would even be better


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## Oz

Frankk12,

A kilo a day or roughly 32 troy ounces is far from hobby. Just a thought, 32 troy ounces at $900 is $28,800.00. If you can make 5% after expenses you have a net income of $1,440 per day or $375,000.00 a year, a nice income. 

Do you already have a client base that will supply that quantity of scrap?


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## Frankk12

Hi Oz
I do have a lot of contacts 

Like any other business 
they have to see some advantage in giving you the job


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## dick b

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankk12:

This link in by pawnbroker bob in this thread. Take a look at it and I think that is where you need to start to learn the refining processes. 
A 4' fume hood like 4metals pictured would get you up an running, and as your skills and supply of scrap improved, you can expand it and keep going.
I think what you envision is a worthy goal, very do able. 
Getting the licenses, insurance and permits in going to be a major undertaking though. I'm not familiar with CA laws but I expect you will find similar rules and regulations to the EPA here in the USA
Noxx is trying to do that right now and he has Chemistry skills.
I've been studing this forum for a year now and I don't feel my skills are anywhere near good enough to attempt what you want to do.
What I'm trying to say is you have to learn to crawl before you sign up for a marathon. 
I wish you good fortune in your persuit!
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## qst42know

For the big operation you are proposing security should be an even bigger consideration.

If you are taking possession of someones material on consignment, my opinion is they would be more impressed with a big security system and a small lab, than the other way around. 

A ten pound security system and a ten ounce lab may be more cost effective to start with. The lab can be scaled up as needed based on your clientele's needs. 

Just my hobby refiners opinion.

Any of the professionals here have any advice on security?


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## Frankk12

Hi People
You know something 
This idea is already making me sick
I am going to try doing this as a hobby 
Thanks


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## jimdoc

Thats the best way to start. Many hobbies turn into a career.
Nothing better than earning money with your hobby. You can
always expand easily if warranted.
Jim


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## 4metals

Frank

If you build the hood and scrubber arrangement as described in this post and install it in the 10 x 20 assay / refining lab described in the post under the assaying section you should be able to easily refine in excess of 1 kilo per day. If it is your goal to compete with JM or Mettalor you're up against some pretty stiff competition and they have large sums of money behind them to do it in the most cost effective manner. Both use a Miller chlorine pre refining process followed by electrolytic cells to produce 99.99 gold. They also quote prices of about 1/2 % in quantity. At those prices I'd save up a weeks worth of kilo's of scrap, melt and assay it and take it in and rep it. But then it's not a hobby it's business.


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## Lou

@qst,

Security is a big thing. It is very hard to establish an operation without having adequately secured the refinery. Better security = better insurance rates = less money out the door. Most insurers have their own ideas as to what type of security is adequate, and many have their own brands of safes, camera systems, etc. that they recommend.


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## 4metals

Depending on how much metal you have to insure the security systems can get quite intricate. Like 2 alarm systems, one for the vault, one for the premises, and 2 different security companies who both respond to an alarm so neither security firm is there alone. Then there's video surveillance and 7 day recording, a man trap, and armed guards for deliveries. Metal detectors for scanning both visitors and employees. It can add up to quite a bit of overhead, and drive down your profits.

I started out in a small refinery with a good small safe, a perimeter alarm, and a safe deposit box at the bank for my inventory. It can only grow from there.


----------



## PreciousMexpert

I have heard people talking about the Miller Chlorination Process
How much money would it take to establish something like this
Also who would you ask for consultation
The knowledge for AR system is here in this forum but for the Miller Process how would you go about starting it
Thanks


----------



## Lou

Miller chlorine process requires liquefied chlorine, a compatible delivery system (so proper hose), a clay or quartz ''sparging'' tube for delivery into the melt. If you're looking to do it safely and in an EPA-compliant manner, you will need a fume management and containment setup, and of course a baghouse/filter setup to deal with the colloidal particles produced (mostly AgCl). Not cheap. 

You have to consider a few things when doing this process: 1.) you have to have a significant pressure of chlorine to overcome the density of the gold which means your delivery system must be able to handle it and not crack (which would be a scary situation with 40 psi chlorine), 2.) you need a way to gas the melt AND simultaneously remove the slag (CuCl, AgCl, PbCl2) in an efficient manner.

Assuming you purify the gold to say, 99.2% or so Au, then you need to cast anodes, obtain an HAuCl4 electrolyte and a big fat Ti cathode along with a windshield scraper to knock off the sponge which plates out.

We could go on and on. Really, it's a bother to do and unless you're dealing in quantities of hundreds of ounces, it's easier to melt, inquart, shot, part, rinse, dissolve, precipitate, assay and repeat if necessary.


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## 4metals

And that's hundreds of ounces a day! That rules out all but the largest refiners.


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## PreciousMexpert

if i was to rent a place in an building like this, yes it is the empire state building
i am not going to rent a place there but i am just using the picture as an example
lets say i start refining and nobody knows
i build a scrubber like you guys are talking about over here
will the neighbors get the smell of the refining and will a be in a jam

if i add some kind of a filter to the blower will that help


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## 4metals

I designed a place in downtown Manhattan to digest 750 ounce of karat gold per day. We never had complaints about fumes coming off the scrubber, noise from the blower, yes, fumes never. 

The EPA uses a ballpark figure of 80% efficiency for caustic scrubbers so never put your stack under anyones open windows but a well placed stack which see's a good quantity of open air should be fine.


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## PreciousMexpert

4metals thanks for your help
how much do yo charge for consultation and designing a system


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## 4metals

Mexpert

I'll send you a PM


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## PreciousMexpert

What happens when there is a power failure or there is a problem with the building water system.


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## PreciousMexpert

Is there something you pour over the reaction to stop it


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## 4metals

Either pull out the metal and rinse it or ice it down. Better yet, start slow, never over add your acids, and learn your material. Then put the ice around a cold brew! :lol:


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## markqf1

I've been reading this thread and the thought of compressed air entered my mind.
How useful could compressed air be to fume control?

Mark


----------



## qst42know

It would require a large air compressor but you could create a significant draft blowing an air nozzle up a stack pipe. It's not very efficient energy wise because of the cfm it would require but they make packing peanut vacuums for receiving departments with the same sort of rig. Pneumatic fume hood of a sort.


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## markqf1

I was looking more at augmentation.
A slipstream can help matters!

Mark


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## qst42know

If you think of it this way. A 1/2 hp blower would move a much larger volume of air than a 1/2 hp compressor. You need volume not pressure.


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## Platdigger

And volocity as well, if we are talking about veturi effect.


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## LaurenceOs

4metals! Fantastic thread!

I understand fully but where can i get corrosion resistant blowers and the caustic pump/spray nozzle.

While you're at it what materials are going to be unaffected by the fumes?

Laurence


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## 4metals

The blowers are usually PVC or fiberglass, I do not know where to buy this equipment on your side of the pond but here in the US check out this link;
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ca...SPlastic&category_name=58&Page=1&clickid=land

Caustic can be pumped by a lot of different centrifugal pumps look for one rated for highly corrosive liquids. (also in us plastics catalog) as can nozzles. Personally I would steer clear of nozzles favoring small holes which are easy to maintain. (caustic tends to salt up and clog nozzles)

The only material which will be unaffected by the chemicals we are encountering is glass or glass lined steel, very pricey. Vinyl ester resin fiberglass holds up well and is affordable and doesn't break.


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## goldsilverpro

usplastic.com is an excellent company that carries about everything plastic you'll ever need, at good prices. They also used to have a Safety Equipment catalog that was excellent. I've bought many things from them in the past. The founder, Stanley Tam, was originally in the silver film scrap industry.

Lou, I'm glad you mentioned them. I just ordered their catalog.


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## LaurenceOs

Erm, guys, have you seen the prices on those things?


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## 4metals

The equipment to process gold in the quantities the hood and scrubber described in this thread can process is expensive. But if you want to jump from hobby refining to a business they're necessary. I'm not offering excuses but if you want to do anything right in this day and age it's going to cost you. If you take care of them the pumps and blowers will last a very long time.


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## LaurenceOs

Lol wow, I dunno it just seems like an obscure part of the refining process to cost so much, I am only currently doing it as a hobby but from what i understand a hood and scrubber is a necessity anyway. Is there no avoiding this?


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## goldsilverpro

Thinking back, I guess most of the stuff I bought from them in the past was for companies that I was working or consulting for, when I didn't care what I spent. When I had my last refinery, besides little things like drum pumps, I think the only thing I bought from them was an 18" dia. plastic vacuum filter funnel. I never cared much for it. The way it was designed, it was very tricky to get a good seal. However, it was a good brand (Bel-Art, I think) that was sold everywhere and U.S. Plastics had the best price. It was my fault for buying it.

I think a decent fume hood and scrubber can be easily homemade. There has already been more than adequate information on this forum to make both. My last refinery was located in a building in a scrap metal yard. Almost every major piece of equipment I used was made from stuff that came from that yard. I don't think that, compared with tailor-made high dollar equipment, anything was sacrificed. My 12' fume hood cost about $200 to make from lumber. It worked great. BTW, I never incinerated in that hood. The 2 standard steel squirrel cage blowers came from the scrap yard and were mounted in the top rear of the 7' high hood - it took 5 years for them to crap out.

I have had both high dollar and El Cheepo, and I really think I prefer the El Cheepo. I can design it to fit ME.


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## 4metals

I was hired once by a guy who wanted to own a gold refinery and after I began working with his contractor I realized he never told me the whole story. Sure he wanted a refinery but he wasn't about to buy anything new, everything was bought at auction. In the end we had a high tech refinery with moderate capacity (3750 ounces of karat per week) for a lot less cash than I had imagined. 

Shop the auctions, these days with companies closing and auctions gone internet there are great deals out there. Generally scrubbers and corrosion resistant blowers don't go for a lot of money, filter presses on the other hand always cost a bundle.


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## LaurenceOs

I wouldn't even know where to start... i think i may just have to do small bits outside with a fan going lol


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## 4metals

Actually it's pretty east to get into the auction bidding scene. Since you live close to a big city, Google commercial / industrial auctioneers in your area, check their websites for local auctions of industrial businesses. For refining stuff you should look for businesses that had electroplating shops and or labs. Within a week or 2 of the auction most sellers post pictures on line of everything they're auctioning off so you can browse to see if anything sparks your interest. They all have days when anyone interested can walk through and browse the equipment, so you can check it out in detail. Go, look you may see something you need. Auction prices are usually cheap, especially if nobody else is interested. You can usually pick up old computers and scrap at auction as well. 
When you feel comfortable doing it you can begin to bid on equipment further from home, usually the photo's are decent and you can get a good idea, after you have trained your eye on local stuff.


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## golddie

Hi Folks
On this page
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
In this picture


hood_and_scrubber_001_16222.jpg (57.82 KiB) Viewed 510 times
Where it writes No 3

I went to the hardware store nearby and the a car parts store
to buy something that i will be able to use to make that
I asked them for a car washing hose with an attachment so I can
squirt soap(lye)and water at the same time.
I don't know if I am being clear
I thought something like this was sold on the market
Can someone give me an idea
Thanks


----------



## 2002valkyrie

Hi all, Just reading about homemade hoods and scrubbers and me being a Noob I need to go cheap (talking lost my job and need to start with minimal investment in supplies other than the product and production). A hood and scrubber is in my opinion a must for safety and environmental responsibility. I have an idea for a small set up I will be starting and welcome any advice. 

The breakdown of the attached pic. 
2 plastic 55 gal drums. 1 on my table with a 2' x 2' square cut out also has 2" lip on bottom for spill catch. 2.5 flexable plastic pipe sealed in the top, leading to the bottom of the second drum also sealed. (Filled with Water 8" from top) A shopvac attached to the second drum's top and sealed.
I know the scrubber (2nd drum) has to have a carsnigen will ash work? and sliced round plastic bottles.
I just really am wanting to know that I will be o.k. with this set up till I know I will succeed and not put my self in debt for a refinery set up that I am not skilled enough at.


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## LeftyTheBandit

This is my set up currently used to handle my fumes from AR. 1L Elymer flasks, three rubber stoppers with two holes drilled into them, one rubber stopper with one hole drilled, 7 glass tubes to enter flask through rubber stoppers and poly tubing to connect the glass tubes. 

I also use an aspirator pump to empty the last remnants of the gas through the caustic solution. Aspirator pumps use running water to create a venturi effect that creates a suction at the exit port. Total cost $75. 8)


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## 4metals

Valkyrie,

Your shop vac just won't give you enough CFM to do any good. I like the cut off plastic drum, maybe if you use the drum with rigid pvc drain pipe, 4" and just above the hood add a true wye, which is a tee that enters at a 45 degree angle, and use a leaf blower to blow up. This will induce a vacuum and you will get exhaust. Just run the pipe over any roof lines to get the fumes away. The setup you drew will pull the fumes through the workings of the shop vac, and it will not last too long. The leaf blower is out of the air flow and fumes do not pass through it. 

This will not neutralize any fumes, just remove the stinkies which escape the scrubber setup below which scrubs just the beaker where the reaction is going on. Very much like Lefty's


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## eeTHr

2002valkyrie;

I'm in the process of building one like yours now.

I removed the impeller (aluminum) from the shop vac, and sprayed it and the shaft/nut with epoxy paint. The first coat is dry this morning, and should it should be finished today. I'm spraying all the exposed screw heads also.

The hood itself is one of those plastic storage bins with latches, so I put screws through the cover and latches, on one side, to use it like a hinge. It sits on it's side, so the cover swings open like a door. Also, it's semi clear so I can pretty much see inside with the door closed.

I used 4" PVC out the back, with a plexiglass flange glued to an "L" fitting. The hole was cut with a Dremel tool and cutting disc. The fitting points downward, and straight PVC goes into a rubbermaid garbage can with latching lid. Probably holes drilled into the lower end of the straight pipe will help make smaller bubbles for more surface area in contact with the water solution.

I've been using the hood and pipe portion already, but with a computer fan, which was too weak to push the air flow through water, but it proved-out the storage bin, and got the fumes out of my face. Now to keep them out of the air.

I'll post how it turns out.

Don


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## eeTHr

4metals;

You must have posted just as I was starting to type my post above. Anyway, I hadn't seen yours until after I posted.

Actually, I was thinking that the air flow with the shop vac might be _too much,_ and create an explosive fountain effect in the garbage can.

Well, it's warming up outside, so I'll get to work on it and see. 8) 

Don


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## 2002valkyrie

What can i use in the water to neutralize the fumes? I have a fine Doberman and neighbors and we all have too many cars ( I'm setting up in my carport now).


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## Noxx

Caustic (Sodium Hydroxide), lime, H2O2 or simply water can work if used correctly.


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## 2002valkyrie

What is the cheapest product? Can i use stove ash?


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## 4metals

Valkyrie

The object of the scrubber is to neutralize the fume. Cheapest for you may be Lye. You do realize that a well designed scrubber with pumps and pH controls is only 80% efficient. That means coat your shop vac innards or you will destroy them. You also should realize that you want to get your fumes up, even after they come out of your home made scrubber, if your shop vac is on the ground next to your hood you will smell them.


----------



## eeTHr

Well, right now lack of sucktion is not a problem. In fact it is sucking the sides of the garbage can inward. It looks like grandpaw drinking a too-thick milkshake through a soda straw. Except the garbage can's eyes don't cross.

It will need some fine tuning. 8) 

Don


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## 4metals

How is the suction at the hood? It should draw smoke generated at the opening up and out efficiently.


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## dick b

I think he is trying to suck against 24"s of water column. Thats much different that drawing air and fumes thru moist media. He needs to go back into this thread and get a better understanding of what the spray nozzles are for.

dickb


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## 2002valkyrie

Don, did you get yours set up today?
i'm waiting on my sealer to dry. But it looks real good.


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## eeTHr

Val;

It works, but the beginning of the holes in the 4" pipe can't be more than an inch under the water or it will make too much suction inside the garbage can, and pull the sides in. It was drawing the air out of the end of the pipe, with no holes in it, with water about one foot up the pipe, but it nearly collapsed the Rubbermaid can.

The air flow will put out a bic lighter at the pipe opening inside the hood. I think that's enough flow to get rid of fumes. It's a 5.5 HP shop vac.

I'm thinking about some kind of reinforcement inside the garbage can.

I'm also wondering if the motor will overheat, because it doesn't look big enough to be a continuous duty motor, as it's very small for a 5.5 HP. I've seen one horse continuous duty motors that are bigger than it is.

I'll have to monitor the heat coming out of the separate cooling fan vent. I hope it has a thermal overload switch inside.

Tomorrow I'll try it in use. :?: 

Don


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## eeTHr

I added more holes in the 4" down-pipe, at the same level, to increase flow and reduce the vacuum in the garbage can. It worked to some extent. Now the garbage can pulses like a beating heart, about two pulses per second. But it has good air flow at the hood.

The shop vac can take two filters inside, one cylinder shaped going into the empeller opening, and one bag type which feeds directly from the hose inlet and wraps around the inside of the vac. I put them both in.

I already had some holes drilled in the hood door, but now the air flow is more than with the 5" computer fan I used before, so I had to drill some more holes.

I ran it for 15 minutes and the motor fan outlet temperature was steady at 115 degrees.

I also put the box it came in over it to decrease the noise. I cut holes for the vac hose and power cord on one side, a hole for the motor fan outlet on the top and an opening for its inlet on the bottom, pluse a hole for the vac blow outlet.

I ran it for two hours. Within the first couple of minutes the motor fan outlet went up to 110 degrees, and it stayed there the whole two hours just fine. I guess the box lowered the temperature by not allowing sunlight directly on the vac. (Air temperature was 74 degrees.)

Soon after I started the two hour run, the garbage can caved-in a bit, but the lid stayed sealed, so it worked for the two hours.

I need to drill yet more holes in the hood door, because there is still too much vacuum inside the hood (I noticed that when I had the door ajar a little, it sucked the fumes better). This should also help the can vacuum situation a little bit.

Now I need to install a 2" pipe that will take it up above the roof line.

I cooked some A/R at 190 degrees in there, and could smell it a little coming out of the vac blow hole, but it's nothing like when I used to cook it out in the open. Once it gets piped up above, and has a chance to dissapate, I don't think it will be a problem at all.


----------



## 2002valkyrie

eeTHr said:


> I cooked some A/R at 190 degrees in there, and could smell it a little coming out of the vac blow hole, but it's nothing like when I used to cook it out in the open. Once it gets piped up above, and has a chance to dissapate, I don't think it will be a problem at all.




That's great news! What did you mix in your drum as a caustic? I have added a 2 1/4" plastic fle pipe on the inside of the inlet port of my shopvac. Then burried it under 10lbs. of charcoal and before the air can enter the foam filter, I put a plastic coffee can over it so that there is a 1" gap it the top. May not last long but it can't hurt. I just need to get started. I am working on getting my exhaust elevated tomorrow. 

I am trying to get everything ready to run so I can get started as soon as my melting dishes come in. Then I will be asking more questions on this forum.


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## 4metals

Something rubs me the wrong way with sucking fumes through a shop vacuum, even with a scrubbing device in the line. I just don't think it will last for long. But some of what I've read here is good. Making a hood from a drum as Valkyrie did is a good cheap start, making the bottom of the door off the bottom by an inch or two is great for spill containment. I would exhaust fumes from the hood with a leaf blower as in the attached sketch. That will give good exhaust but a door that closes over the opening would be a good thing. I would use a hole saw and drill 3 or 4 inch and a half holes along the bottom of the door so air can get in with the door closed. If you get good flow from your shop vacuum you can use the exhaust side to blow up the pipe instead of a leaf blower.

Now there is no treatment of the fumes with this rig. The worst fumes, the red NOx fumes, are the ones we really have to do something about. The bisulfite fumes from dropping the gold can be controlled by adding slowly in an open container and exhausting into open air without scrubbing, the fumes dissipate readily. 

To handle the NOx fumes I would exhaust the fumes out of a bucket with a bulkhead fitting towards the top edge connected to 2 erlenmeyer flasks and a vacuum eductor as described earlier.

Only the bucket for the reaction has to be in the hood, the flasks can be mounted outside the hood connected by a hose through the wall so they don't take up valuable hood space. The fumes will be better scrubbed this way and any fumes that leak out if you open up the top to see what is going on will be caught in the hood and pumped up and away from your face. When you change out the caustic from the scrubber flasks you can use it to treat your waste.


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## eeTHr

Val;

The flex pipe, charcoal, and coffee can sounds good. Thanks for the idea.

I'll be doing the up-pipe tomorrow, too.


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## LeftyTheBandit

This is so red neck I love it. 

A leaf blower exhaust fan. :shock: 

Who woulda thunk it. 

Get'r done!

(time to get the leaf/snow blower out) These two are having so much fun, I feel like I'm missing out!


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## 2002valkyrie

LeftyTheBandit said:


> This is so red neck I love it.




Sorry to take such a great subject and turn it into a "redneck" thread. I am in awe of you all on this forum and hope to join in your ranks someday but I must start with minimal investment which requires me to look around and use what items I have on hand. The only thing I have purchased is gold and I plan to sell it.


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## jimdoc

You got to do what you can with what you got. When you don't have thousands of dollars for a fume hood you got to get creative.
If it saves your lungs and keeps your neighbors happy, that is the only thing that matters. I like the barrel idea, it is a great size for
starting out. And they are easy to find, hell I have about a dozen of them already. I think most of us love "redneck ingenuity'
Jim


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## eeTHr

Valkyrie;

Sorry, I forgot your question about neutralizer. I didn't add anything to the water, since I was taking the pipe out several times to get the holes right. When I think it's done, I'll use a little Red Devil Lye.

I got a late start today, and am just now going to get the up-pipe stuff.

Don


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## 2002valkyrie

Yep thats what I used got 2 40lbs. bags at Lowes for $9.00 tax included.


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## lazersteve

Valkyrie,

Are you sure you purchased lye, sodium hydroxide, and not lime, calcium hydroxide and magnesium hydroxide? 

They both should work, but I've never seen sodium hydroxide lye for sale in a Lowes store in 40lb bags. It's typically sold in 1 lb cans in the plumbing isle if your store carries it. My local Lowes quit carrying the Red Devil lye a few years back, now I use the large bags of lime. 

If you definitely got your hands on 40lb bags of lye (sodium hydroxide) at Lowes, which section did you find it in?

Welcome to the forum by the way, it's great to have new members that are as safety conscience as you are!

Steve


----------



## Oz

Did you say you got 80lbs of lye (sodium hydroxide) at Lowes for $9.00?

Please check the bags to see what % and if it is indeed “sodium hydroxide”. If it is high purity there will be more than 1 member going to Lowes.


----------



## eeTHr

Valkyrie;

I assume that you already know that most of the experienced people on here consider lye to be more dangerous to the body than the strong acids normally used in home refining? :shock: 

Protect your eyes (end everything else). 8) 

Don


----------



## 2002valkyrie

lazersteve said:


> Valkyrie,
> 
> Are you sure you purchased lye, sodium hydroxide, and not lime, calcium hydroxide and magnesium hydroxide?



lazersteve, You are right, It is Lime not Lye don't know how I got that messed up. But if it'll work maybe I'll be o.k. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I plan to order from you on a regular basis in the future if all works out.


----------



## Harold_V

eeTHr said:


> Valkyrie;
> 
> I assume that you already know that most of the experienced people on here consider lye to be more dangerous to the body than the strong acids normally used in home refining? :shock:
> 
> Protect your eyes (end everything else). 8)
> 
> Don


That's absolutely correct. 
Years ago, I got a drop of nitric acid in my eye. A direct hit, a drop that bounced from a beaker as I was pouring from a container. 

I was seconds away from fresh water, so it was quickly rinsed, but the damage was done. The surface of my eye turned yellowish and peeled off. I was alone, but could see well enough to find help in the yellow pages. I drove about five miles to an ophthalmologist, where I was treated. You may understand that I was very upset, thinking that I may lose the sight in the eye. The ophthalmologist was very reassuring, when he told me, and I quote, "you've very lucky it was acid instead of lye. The human body has the ability to neutralize acid, so while it does damage, it is limited. Your eye will be restored as it was, it just takes a few days. Had it been lye, you had but 15 seconds to eliminate it from your eye, which is not easily accomplished. Unlike acid, it continues do damage tissue, so had the drop been lye, you would have lost the sight in that eye".

Be very careful when handling lye----and wear the appropriate safety gear. Your sight relies on it. 

Harold


----------



## nickvc

Sound warning from Harold V please take note all noobies......... As a byline to all of this please be aware that when venting off fume especially when using heat or with strong reactions pms will travel in the fumes so if your system runs for a good space of time make sure that when changing the solutions or disposing of old equipment you check for them it can be a nice suprise( so tight i squeek ),also the exaust fumes will still be acidic after scrubbing so dont pump it over areas where cars are parked you wont be popular!!!!


----------



## eeTHr

Harold;

Wow. I have seen various warnings and potential results before, but your story really puts things into perspective.

Thanks very much for posting that!

Don

P.S. Wow again.

:idea:


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## 2002valkyrie

On the other hand, Garden Lime shows to only have small amounts of Crystalline Sillica which can be avoided with a good dust mask (I use a Dual Cartridge Respirator ) because airborne sillica is baad for your lungs (lung disease & cancer). 
So I will be doing the same as lazersteve.


----------



## eeTHr

Does anyone know the danger factor of lime in solution as compared to lye in solution?

Is a more dilute solution significantly less dangerous than a saturated solution?

My thought is to bring the water up only a couple of pH numbers with lye, and monitor it to keep it from dropping much below 7.

If the lime or lye solution is at 7, is it still dangerous?

What should I do to it before discarding it? Make it acidic and put in some copper to drop any PMs, then iron to drop the copper and other metals, then bring the pH back up to 7 to discard?


----------



## LeftyTheBandit

2002valkyrie said:


> LeftyTheBandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is so red neck I love it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to take such a great subject and turn it into a "redneck" thread. I am in awe of you all on this forum and hope to join in your ranks someday but I must start with minimal investment which requires me to look around and use what items I have on hand. The only thing I have purchased is gold and I plan to sell it.
Click to expand...


I fear my comments were recieved incorrectly. I'm in aw of your ingenuity and ability to use what is available and use it successfully.

I look forward to hearing more on the subject and your ongoing adventure!


----------



## eeTHr

Lefty;

Nope, not at all. Just the opposite. I appreciated it! I guess I should have said "thanks."

In all honesty, though, I do have to admit that I'm not a _full-fledged_ redneck. When my porch collapsed, only three dogs died.


----------



## goldnugget77

Hi Folks
I found a big pvc barrel I think its 55 gallons
I have started to turn this barrel into a scrubber.
I went to my local hardware and the fitting to attach the pipe to the barrel does not have a hole that is 3 inches.

Here 4metals in his diagram has written 3 inches.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776&start=0

The fitting for the pipe I found had a 1 inch hole
Can anyone tell me if this will be a problem
Should I try to find a fitting attachment that is absolutely 3 inches.
I have to make a special trip for this and if I can do with the one I already have than that would be great
Thanks


----------



## 2002valkyrie

A 1" hole will restrict the volume of air that can be moved. If you plan to keep the door shut on your hood you will be fine, but if you are like me and need to open the door often I recomend 3" hole just to remove the fumes as fast as they develop. Just to be safe I would go with the 3" hole because it is better to do it right than to do it twice.


----------



## goldnugget77

Hi 2002valkyrie
Thanks for your reply
I guess it would be a good idea to have a door to the fume hood.

Here in this picture they have a narrow pipe
But I agree with you that its better to do it right in the first place
Its just that I have to run around trying to find these fittings and the pipes
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6682/31958772.jpg

About the door for the fume hood 
what would be a good material
I thought about window glass
Thanks


----------



## goldnugget77

Hi 2002valkyrie
Take a look at the pipes in this picture
They are very narrow
Maybe I can use those narrow fittings 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776&start=20


----------



## 2002valkyrie

goldnugget77 said:


> Hi 2002valkyrie
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your reply
> I guess it would be a good idea to have a door to the fume hood
> 
> 
> 
> .
> If you can move enough air to keep your work area clear of fumes no door is needed except when not in use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here in this picture they have a narrow pipe
> But I agree with you that its better to do it right in the first place
> Its just that I have to run around trying to find these fittings and the pipes
> http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6682/31958772.jpg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This picture is of a very nice lab and money was not a big issue when it was designed. So you can bet that ventilation goes a little futher than the small pipes in the picture, I would bet that it has 2 systems to handle the fumes 1 that is treating the primary fumes and 1 to treat the fumes that might escape into the room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About the door for the fume hood
> what would be a good material
> I thought about window glass
> Thanks
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Yes glass is a very good door material. Hoke states you can use a home window and frame that is made of wood, we have good caotings to protect the wood now so it would last for a long time.


----------



## Anonymous

Are you guys sealing the fume hood? Or I guess a better question would be, do you need are flow to carry the fumes through your scrubber.

Jim


----------



## 2002valkyrie

james122964 said:


> Are you guys sealing the fume hood? Or I guess a better question would be, do you need are flow to carry the fumes through your scrubber.
> 
> Jim



I have sealed mine good enough to keep out any critters I don't want in it. But I have installed a stainless steel screen on the door to allow it to breath but still has a negitive preasure in the hood.


----------



## Harold_V

goldnugget77 said:


> About the door for the fume hood what would be a good material
> I thought about window glass
> Thanks


You might consider paying to have it tempered. Tempered glass is much tougher, and will not break into shards that can injure. 

Harold


----------



## Palladium

If you’re looking for some tempered glass here is a trick that will serve you well. Having been in commercial construction on and off for some years you get to meet the owners of all your sub companies. I've been to more than a couple commercial glass companies. These companies, usually even the small ones, have a couple of pan dumpsters behind there offices or shops. They generate a lot of glass scrap wastes. When they go out and replace or remove these store fronts they have to take the glass with them and they dispose of it at the shop. They usually all come in around 4:00 pm. If you catch them then they will have loads to choose from on their trucks. All they do is throw in the dumpsters and break it. You can then have them cut it to length inside, for a fee of course. But for about $ 20-30 you can get it cut and even get some holes drilled for hinges. You can bolt some hinges to the glass for mounting. Just remember it glass, but yeah it can be done.

I once had the chance to get a truck load of thick plate glass. Like the kind they use in glass front service stations. I just didn't have the means to store it or off load it at the time. The manufacturer mis cut the glass by 2 in short and the whole load was scraped and paid for by insurance. The glass is not the most expensive part. It's the cutting or re cutting and re handling of everything that makes it cheaper to just scrap it and start over rather than trying to back up. I was planning on building another house and incorporating the glass into a whole wall facing off the mountain side. Would have looked great and nobody would have been the wiser that it didn't cost a fortune. Why is it people think that to impress some body you have to tell them how much you over paid for something. That just tells me you’re an idiot. If you want to impress me tell me how much you saved on something. Anyway find a commercial glass company. Almost all towns have at least a small one.


----------



## butcher

have not followed thread closely, if using a plastic drum a window can be made from a plexy glass, easily shaped with heat. the window would not nessarily have to be in door, even maybe just a small window to peep inside, may all that is nessary. I like this Idea you brains are cooking up.


----------



## Refiner232121

I have a 55 gallon pvc drum that I am going to use as a scrubber.
I would like to buy a pump that is acid resistant.
How about this one
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3WY87?Pid=search

I think this is good enough for my scrubber.
What do you folks think 
Should the pump be more powerful.
Thanks


----------



## dick b

Hello:

I would think that 4 gal per min at a 10 foot head should be powerful enough. It depends a lot on your choice for a spary bar and the size of nozzle that you intend to use. If your thinking of a spray similar to a shower head in the bath tub, then you should be ok. If your thinking of a finer spray like a paint or chemical sprayer has then you probably won't get enough pressure to atomize the fluid. 

The size of the reservoir that you intend to have will also affect the size of the pump because if your only holding say 5 gals of fluid, then the pump would run the tank dry before it can return from the scrubber. Plus the larger the fluid capacity, the longer time before the ph will changed from the scrubbing action. I'm thinking that 15gal should be a good startng point. Ideally you want to keep the fluid in the 6 to 8 range for the best scrubbing action.

That price pump may be necessary, but I'm planning on using something less expensive to start with and may end up there, because I think it looks like a good choice.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SIMER-ELECTRIC-SUBMERSIBLE-UTILITY-WATER-sump-PUMP_W0QQitemZ300361446341QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45eeeff3c5

I have a small pump like this one and plan to start with it. Then I'll go from there as needed. You are just trying to keep the media wet, not flood the scrubber.

Good luck.

dickb


----------



## Refiner232121

Hi dick b
The pump you are referring to doesn't say acid resistant


----------



## dick b

Hello again:

Yes your correct, the one I already have is similar to that one only smaller.

As long as the PH is maintained around 7 or neutral, then as the acid or base is absorbed, the fluid will move one way or the other way on the PH scale. The further it goes to 1 or 14 the more damage it will cause to the pump and seals.

So, by monitoring the PH level in the tank and adjusting to PH back to neutral the less damage to the pump will occur.

After you use the system for a time and learn how long it takes to change the PH and how much and how often you need to check it, the easier it will become to operate the system. If your reacting with acids and you let the PH in the scrubber go to 1, it will stop absorbing the acid fumes from your exhaust and no scrubbing action will take place. The same is true for the opposite reaction if your using bases for the reaction.

So for the system to operate properly, you have to monitor the PH level in the tank.

When all is said and done, you and I may find out the your original choice is the best one. When you develop a prototype, these are the things that you learn as you gain experience with what your doing.

Good luck.
dickb


----------



## butcher

I have pumps that come out of old equiptment that use tubing and rollers, the acid only flows through tubing. there are other pumps that use no shaft seal (place for problem with strong chemicals, they are of plastic type and use magnets to turn impellers, there are also teflon diaphram type pumps, if using a pump for acid I would make sure it did not use a seal or metal that the acid being used would attack, also acid ressistant does not nessarily mean acid proof, check it out also check out the plastic if it can handle the acid you plan to use it on, I believe granger catalog had a chart that gave acid corrosion of metals and plastics in there catalogs,

just for fun here is some idea's: 
vacuum pump, a barrel sitting on table, valve at bottom and one one top, this can be pvc, this barrel is sealed meaning no holes or open bungs, a hose attatched to top valve for suction hose, barrel filled with water, when bottom valve opened to drain water from barrel creates suction at your hose on top valve, this hose can go to a suction fluid collector vessel, lid two holes, our suction hose just through lid, and another collector hose to the liquid or gas we wish to sypher or suck out.

another use for this same barrel with two valves, if filled with a liquid or acid, a hose on bottom and if we pumped air into top valve the air pressure would pump liquid out and up hill from bottom valve.


----------



## Palladium

http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/ChemComp.asp


----------



## 2002valkyrie

> just for fun here is some idea's:
> vacuum pump, a barrel sitting on table, valve at bottom and one one top, this can be pvc, this barrel is sealed meaning no holes or open bungs, a hose attatched to top valve for suction hose, barrel filled with water, when bottom valve opened to drain water from barrel creates suction at your hose on top valve, this hose can go to a suction fluid collector vessel, lid two holes, our suction hose just through lid, and another collector hose to the liquid or gas we wish to sypher or suck out.
> another use for this same barrel with two valves, if filled with a liquid or acid, a hose on bottom and if we pumped air into top valve the air pressure would pump liquid out and up hill from bottom valve.




This does not seem logical for this application, to run a scrubber the pump must be a constant cycle. Also you are forgetting the scrubber should start as a mild base and will become acid after use. This is where monitoring the solution comes in handy. When it becomes acidic you should add acid reducer (PH adjuster) to protect your pump as well as maintain the effectiveness of the scrubber.


----------



## butcher

the barrel etc. was not posted for the scrubber project, or other specific use, just as general information, ideas, speaking of that don't forget asperators , and jet pumps.


----------



## 2002valkyrie

goldnugget77 said:


> Hi Folks
> I found a big pvc barrel I think its 55 gallons
> I have started to turn this barrel into a scrubber.
> I went to my local hardware and the fitting to attach the pipe to the barrel does not have a hole that is 3 inches.



People... Please read the posted material before you comment. It is fustrating to have someone post information that does not help the person asking for it.



butcher said:


> the barrel etc. was not posted for the scrubber project, or other specific use, just as general information, ideas, speaking of that don't forget asperators , and jet pumps.



Gerneral ideas should be posted here: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=39 Not under the Help category.


----------



## butcher

valkyrie, I was trying to help Dick b, with his question about an acid resistant pump, and also giving him other idea's that may help him or others looking for an acid resistant pump to use. yes the one I described was not for his specific application, but if you read back further on this scrubber project, not every one will be building the scrubber the same way, some others may need a source for vacuum, or vaccuum pump,maybe you go not need this information, but others may find it helpful, if not, I have just wasted my time typing it.

I wonder what you mean by this comment?
People... Please read the posted material before you comment. It is fustrating to have someone post information that does not help the person asking for it. 
I found that to be a rude comment.
general idea should only be posted in one place ?
if I am looking for a pump to use for a project I would hope if someone had an Idea I could use, and if that information was not needed by me then, maybe I could use the information in another project, I would wish they would post that idea, in the same post that I was asking questions of whether this pump would work.

the barrel can work and is good to use in scrubber's, maybe not the type you are building, and it was my thought this topic was scrubbers, not necessarly only one type.

valkyrie sorry for interupting your forum


----------



## goldbanger

does anyone have any ideas for using activated carbon to further return cleaner air?
i have fifty pounds of it and was woundering if it should be used before the scrubber or after?
i am making my setup out of polycarbonate (plexiglass) . i am thinking to use it after the scrubber.
any help would be awsome.
thanks,
harvey


----------



## 2002valkyrie

goldbanger said:


> does anyone have any ideas for using activated carbon to further return cleaner air?
> i have fifty pounds of it and was woundering if it should be used before the scrubber or after?
> i am making my setup out of polycarbonate (plexiglass) . i am thinking to use it after the scrubber.
> any help would be awsome.
> thanks,
> harvey



I just wish I had activated carbon, I'm using charcoal in a 6 gallon container after the scruber before my 6 horse power shop vac. The scrubed fumes are directed into the bottom of the container with the Vac hose at the top... I like it! There is no smell at all, even during the heavy work.


In my diagram I have a 55 gallon plastic drum for a work area (hood) the door is 1.5" from the bottom in case of spills, the exhaust is 3" pvc pipe and goes into a 3" x 4" elbo with a 4" pvc pipe going down 3' to a 4" elbo with 4" pipe 5' long, going to a 4" x 6" elbo with a 6" pvc pipe going up 4' with a 6 gallon bucket (with a hole in the bottom for the pipe) the 6" pipe pokes through the bottom of the bucket 2" and has 1" holes drilled around the side of the pipe. Inside the bucket is the bottom 3" of a 5 gallon bucket upside down over the pipe (1/2" holes in it random but not over the pipe) Charcoal in the 6 gallon bucket on top of the 5 gallon bottom. A 6 hp shop vac hose is attached to the top of the 6 Gallon charcoal bucket.There is 6" of lye water in the pvc pipe (this was optimal for this set up )remember to put a ball valve on the lowest point for drain purposes ( lowest point for gold recovery ) The shop vac is not permenantly mounted so it can be removed any time it is needed else where.


----------



## PreciousMexpert

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5999/11016735.jpg

1) can i make this so that I can
Attach the red pipe to the purple pipe when I melt copper or aluminum and I dont want to use the scrubber.

2) Incenerator
I wanted to make something like Harolds fume hood but I can find asbestos and I have to find an alternative
I have to plan something for that

3) Red galvinzed pipes
When the smoke from the furnace goes into the scrubber.
Does this seem right 
will it damage something

4) The reactor idea is from scrapper-aw

If anyone sees any mistakes or has ideas for improvement I would 
like to hear from you
Thanks


----------



## goldsilverpro

If you are just doing minor incineration, such as what Harold speaks of, it might be OK. 

However, major incineration, such as boards, could be a big problem, since there are lots of solids in the smoke and it could gunk up the scrubber in no time. The only time I've seen something similar done was with a guy that was burning x-ray film. He sucked the smoke through water in a series of drums. In a couple of days, there was a crust of stinking stuff, several inches thick, floating on top of the water in each drum. It pretty much stopped the operation.

Unless you have a very large scrubber (say, 6' - 8' dia. x 20' tall), it won't work well at all with open-top acid reaction containers and an open fume hood. You'll have to create a closed system. I assume you're doing this if you're following 4metals instructions.


----------



## 4metals

Mexpert,

What are you burning? Electronics or jewelery sweeps? Most incinerators effectively reduce emissions by using an afterburner, scrubbers are designed to scrub chemical fume and if you have dense smoke it is more from particulate and incompletely combusted material. 

A hot afterburner re-burns the smoke and completes combustion. If you're burning a lot of material a refractory chimney helps because the refractory can withstand more heat. Successful after-burning requires a secondary burner and a renewed source of oxygen (fresh air) often material smokes because it runs out of oxygen in the primary burn chamber. An afterburner gives it a second chance to burn completely. 

For a melting hood try cement board, used behind ceramic tile, instead of asbestos.


----------



## PreciousMexpert

Hi Gsp and 4metals
Thanks for your valuable help
I will be working with jewelery
I think I will have the smoke from the incenerator and the the smoke from the melting furnace go directly out the window
If there are valuables in the smoke the filter will catch it.

The acid fumes will go into the scrubber.


> For a melting hood try cement board, used behind ceramic tile, instead of asbestos


4metals this idea is very good thanks


----------



## PreciousMexpert

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2C863&op=search&Ntt=2C863&N=0&sst=All

I asked this company how I could attach a plastic tube to the inlet and outlet holes and they didnt reply 
I thought maybe they would have something ready for this
Does anyone have any ideas
Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

PreciousMexpert said:


> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2C863&op=search&Ntt=2C863&N=0&sst=All
> 
> I asked this company how I could attach a plastic tube to the inlet and outlet holes and they didnt reply
> I thought maybe they would have something ready for this
> Does anyone have any ideas
> Thanks



On the inlet of the blower (the round part) you should be able to find HVAC hard pipe to connect to the fan and then connect your pltic pipe. On the square end You can have a pice fabricate or try a boot ( this is the part above your ceiling that your air register hook up to) It transitions from square to round. These are gpoing to corode. 

You can try to find a piece of platic pipe. 

You can build a mold out of heavy cardboard that will work and then make a fiberglass piece using it as your mold.

This thing doen't lookd acid resistant i it metal or plastic.


----------



## PreciousMexpert

Hi Barren Realms 007
Thanks for your help
This model is the one Harold used
It is not acid resistant but Harold took it apart and he painted it with epoxy paint


----------



## 4metals

Any idea what the CFM rating of this blower is? Your hood should have 100 cfm for every square foot of opening. That will give you enough exhaust to keep the air flowing away from your face.

The thing you're looking for to adapt a round duct to a square hole is called a transition flange, try US Plastics


----------



## PreciousMexpert

Hi 4metals
I wrote to the company this morning to ask for that information and they didnt reply.
I wll try again tommorow
It is frustrating to deal with these people.
When you are not in the USA the processing of the order becomes a big deal


----------



## Barren Realms 007

PreciousMexpert said:


> Hi Barren Realms 007
> Thanks for your help
> This model is the one Harold used
> It is not acid resistant but Harold took it apart and he painted it with epoxy paint



If you can get all the surfaces painted it should last for a while. You might want to set it up where it produces an indirect draft by putting a WYE in your piping and it pulls air fron the hood by a negative pressure. I know this dosen't make sense so if you need to know more I will see what I can do to accomidate you.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

4metals said:


> Any idea what the CFM rating of this blower is? Your hood should have 100 cfm for every square foot of opening. That will give you enough exhaust to keep the air flowing away from your face.
> 
> The thing you're looking for to adapt a round duct to a square hole is called a transition flange, try US Plastics



Is there a formula that gave you this info? Or is it just a rule of thumb that you use. In AC work you want to turn you air flow 5-7 times per hour in a room.


----------



## PreciousMexpert

Hi Barren Realms 007
Thanks for your help
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5999/11016735.jpg
If you look at this picture I would like to make it like scrapper-aw 

It would be a big help if I get more design ideas
Thanks



> If you can get all the surfaces painted it should last for a while. You might want to set it up where it produces an indirect draft by putting a WYE in your piping and it pulls air fron the hood by a negative pressure. I know this dosen't make sense so if you need to know more I will see what I can do to accomidate you.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Did you mean scrubber or scrapper?


----------



## 4metals

100 CFM per sq ft of opening is a rule of thumb. By the way consider using make up air to minimize removing the air conditioned or heated air from your lab. It's hard to keep a room warm in winter (or cool in summer) when you exhaust thousands of cubic feet per minute. 

Us Plastics was only suggested so you can go on line and see one, I'm sure they're available down under as well. It helps to know what they're called and what they look like.


----------



## goldsilverpro

The 100 cfm/square foot of hood opening is also the same rule I've used all my life.


----------



## golddie

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=3wy87&op=search&Ntt=3wy87&N=0&sst=All

I have a 55 gallon barrel and I would like to use this pump 
What do you folks think


----------



## goldsilverpro

> I have a 55 gallon barrel and I would like to use this pump
> What do you folks think



I'm confused and I'm not going to go back and read the 9 pages of the this thread. What in hell is the pump for? Exhaust? If so, no! Transferring or circulating solution for some reason - yes.


----------



## golddie

Hi Gsp
Thanks for your reply
I would like to use the water pump for the scrubber for circulating the water
Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Gsp
> Thanks for your reply
> I would like to use the water pump for the scrubber for circulating the water
> Thanks



I think that is going to be bigger than you will need. Look for a smaller pump or a 12V pump from and RV or farm chemical sprayer like you pull behind a riding lawn mower.


----------



## golddie

I found this but its not acid resistant 
I guess its not a big deal to change those buster plug clamps

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9576


----------



## Barren Realms 007

That would be closer to what you will need. Do some searching on the Gainger web site and you should find something, or you might have to go to a company that handles this type of pump. The chemicals we use will eat up the housing being SS and probably the impeller is SS as well. I worked at a chemical plant for 3-4 yrs and we used SS, titanium, and all other metal and they all went out with time. We delt with HCL, Hydrobromic, and I think sulfuric as well, it's been too many years.

You will have to make the determination on wheather or not you are willing to put up with changing the housing, impeller and seals each time this goes out or going ahead and spending the money to get the correct equipment that will last.

You will be better off in the long run to use the correct equipment.


----------



## golddie

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93231

The price of this blower is fantastic but again I dont think it will be acid resistant


----------



## Barren Realms 007

I am not sure how the ABS plastic will hold up but I feel it will be effected by the chemical from what I have see some plastics do with the chemicals we use. This could be used as an indirect blower that makes a vacume on the fume hood.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren Realms 007
If you look in this picture there is the red galvanized pipe system
That is a second blower on top of the one for the scrubber
Do you think it would be possible to use it there
For example for melting gold and incinerating jewelers filling.
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5999/11016735.jpg


What I am saying is this for acid
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2C863&op=search&Ntt=2C863&N=0&sst=All
*Note: This blower is 409 dollars in Canada. Isn't that absurd *


http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93231
This for second hood.
But it will also be exposed to acid because I will have it running as a secondary fume hood to pick up things that escape the first blower


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> If you look in this picture there is the red galvanized pipe system
> That is a second blower on top of the one for the scrubber
> Do you think it would be possible to use it there
> For example for melting gold and incinerating jewelers filling.
> http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5999/11016735.jpg



This perticular setup is for a commercial setup. Unless you are going to get big in this you will not need a setup like this. I commend you for having great ideas on what you want to do. But you need to look at reality. You can easily spen$2,000-3,000 on building this setup, that is by the time you buy your stuff and get what little help you will need with electrical, piping, controls. Not counting the 2-3 weeks it will take you to build this. Go find Lasersteve's, Harold's, Lou's, GSP's and the other leaders of this board posts on this subject. Go find the post that shows Lasersteve's hood. He processed a lot of material for a lot of years with just a simple setup of one hood.

Always remember this:_*KISS*_
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid



> What I am saying is this for acid
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2C863&op=search&Ntt=2C863&N=0&sst=All
> *Note: This blower is 409 dollars in Canada. Isn't that absurd *



The main reason for the price on this is because it is for a commercial application, they can afford to spend money like this. It is desighned to take the abuse of a commercial environment. This thing does not come with a motor, I guess you have seen that? Wit hthe motor that it is recomending I will say this blower moves 800-1200 CFM. Do you need that much airflow?




> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93231
> This for second hood.
> But it will also be exposed to acid because I will have it running as a secondary fume hood to pick up things that escape the first blower



I would not use this blower it is not desighned for what you are wanting to do. Unless someone just gives you one.

Take this into context: A regular bathroom exhaust fan moves about 50 CFM. Go to your bathroom if you have a fan in there and look at it. Ther will be a 6"x6"(.5 sq. ft.) plastic screen you can gently pull down and look at the fan and the blower on it. Turn the fan on and feel the air flow. Doing this will give you an idea on the air movement you are trying to achive. That is the same amount of air movement that has been recomended here. 100 CFM!

Just to add this note: At the local commuity college back a few years (12) they installed a science lab. They had 3 vent systems installed using blowers like the first one you are asking about but about 2 times the size. Stainless steel piping and all the bells and whistles for 6 lab tables. If I remember right I charged them around $32,000 to install the system. :roll:


----------



## Oz

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Just to add this note: At the local commuity college back a few years (12) they installed a science lab. They had 3 vent systems installed using blowers like the first one you are asking about but about 2 times the size. Stainless steel piping and all the bells and whistles for 6 lab tables. If I remember right I charged them around $32,000 to install the system



Stainless steel pipe for a fume hood? This was not the exhaust I hope, or am I missing something?


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Oz said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to add this note: At the local commuity college back a few years (12) they installed a science lab. They had 3 vent systems installed using blowers like the first one you are asking about but about 2 times the size. Stainless steel piping and all the bells and whistles for 6 lab tables. If I remember right I charged them around $32,000 to install the system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stainless steel pipe for a fume hood? This was not the exhaust I hope, or am I missing something?
Click to expand...


Nope you didn't miss anything stainless steel was what was put in. I didn't recomend it the architect of the job did. I already knew at the time it was being installed what acid would do to SS because I had seen a 5 gal bucket of 3/4"
304 SS bolts that HCL had eaten the chromium out of them and left them hollow. Found that out when I left them in the bucket for a few days to clean them up at the chemical plant I had worked at. Man was that expensive and glad it didn't come out of my pocket.  

We also installed a drain system with acid resistant piping. The hubs & sockets of the pipe were welded together by meting the plastic with a welder. The hubs had metal wire in them that you hooked a machine up to weld the pipe together. The piping drained into an underground tank with limestone that neutralized the acid. And then ran to the building sanitary sewer system. This was not included in the price I quote in the previous message, it like the venting system was just a small part of the total job. I think I still have some of those fittings too.


----------



## Oz

I have spent a lot of years in construction so I understand “the architect spec” you had to build to. After all, the architect is paid for his or her knowledge and you are just the grunt. Your story even gets worse when you mention their waste acid disposal. I guess they do not mind heavy metals in their sewage plants? 

I have to ask since you said it was 12 years ago, have you been back to see the results? Depending on the use (being a school with very benign use) it may be intact.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Oz said:


> I have spent a lot of years in construction so I understand “the architect spec” you had to build to. After all, the architect is paid for his or her knowledge and you are just the grunt. Your story even gets worse when you mention their waste acid disposal. I guess they do not mind heavy metals in their sewage plants?
> 
> I have to ask since you said it was 12 years ago, have you been back to see the results? Depending on the use (being a school with very benign use) it may be intact.



Yes the College is still intact. As far as I know the equipment is still in place. I can look out my upstairs window and see the building. That work is my pride and joy  . I am not sure to what extent they use the equipment because I never see the college advertise for enrolment in any courses that would use the equipment. Maybe I should go back to school and find out. They are in the process of teaching the production of Bio Diesel, seems to be a big ta do around here about it.

Oz, I"m not sure what kind of construction you do. But you probably know what I do as I have posted it here. In my line of work some one turns on a switch and a light comes on, they flush a commode or wash there hands, They turn their thermostat on to get cooled or heated. As long as these things work people take them for granted and never give them a second thought till these things don't work. This building I have been discussing was the 1st building to be remodeled on the campus, we did the plumbing and HVAC. We did the 2nd phase of remodel on the next building and in the middle of the project they decided to put a fountain in front of the college. It's not the Bilagio fountain by any means. But to put it in and watch people sit around between classes and enjoy this thing is the eye of my life. I get to drive by all the time and know that people appreciate a part of what I have done. We used up to 10" SCH 80 pipe. They originally had desighned the piping in COPPER. But by this time the architect had worked with me long enough that I had his trust. I convinced them to do the job in SCH 80 at a reduced cost and still made 20% more than I would have from the original bid. If I remember right by the time we were finished with the fountain the price tag was $180,000. Concrete work and everything. If my memory serve me our price on it was around $64,000. That fountain paid for 2 good vehicles :twisted: . I can't keep a name, face or telephone # in my head because I can look them up, but I can get close to remembering the cost of jobs that I have done.


----------



## Oz

I wasn't suggesting the college collapsed but their vents might leak or (better yet for you) may need to be replaced due to corrosion. 

I can't say I paid close attention to your construction work on the forum but to give you an idea of my “high end” work I used to be a superintendent on projects that were city blocks in scope in Georgetown Washington D.C., where an outdoor parking pad can cost well in excess of $100,000.00. 

Some of my big battles were with those of great education but little practical knowledge. At times I would find architects or engineers that valued my experience in the field over their degrees in a classroom but they were rare. Most were also unprepared for someone that was self educated that could ask technical questions that they could not answer without “looking into it”.

I can appreciate having a pride and joy nearby that you helped build. I must confess to enjoying the copious consumption of others allowing me to work with paduk and mahogany floors inlaid with brass and baths where the floors in marble were insufficient if the walls were not treated the same. What they called a condo was to me less than a 1 bedroom apartment in size but would sell for over $750,000.00 w/o parking. A real apartment with 2 bedrooms was 1.5-2 million.

For me? I live in the country a 2 hours drive away from that mess and would never wish to live within that environment. Yes I liked the money they paid me when the economy was good, I wonder at times how they are doing today.


----------



## Oz

I just had a thought, yea it happens. 

This was a school? I hope it was a private school with high tuition to pay for fountains and such.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

And people wonder why it costs so much to park in a city.

Nope not a private college,it's a public college. That second phase project was paid for by an endowment from a family. This cost of that 2nd project was over $10,000,000 cost. The bid on the plumbing and HVAC on that project was 1.13 mil. I got beat on the bod by $1,500.00 but he company was from out of town and they contacted me to see if I wanted to do the plumbing and I said yes to it.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

I was just stoking my fireplace and was staring at the fire and a thought hit me. It has not been mentioned about the possability of using the material in a pireflace insert that looks like concrete to make a fume/inceneration hood. Any one know what kind of material it is?


----------



## Harold_V

Barren Realms 007 said:


> I was just stoking my fireplace and was staring at the fire and a thought hit me. It has not been mentioned about the possability of using the material in a pireflace insert that looks like concrete to make a fume/inceneration hood. Any one know what kind of material it is?


A refractory of sorts. 

Not a real good idea in that it will respond poorly to acid exposure. If it has Portland cement as part of its make-up, it would be a very poor idea.

Harold


----------



## Irons

Harold_V said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just stoking my fireplace and was staring at the fire and a thought hit me. It has not been mentioned about the possability of using the material in a pireflace insert that looks like concrete to make a fume/inceneration hood. Any one know what kind of material it is?
> 
> 
> 
> A refractory of sorts.
> 
> Not a real good idea in that it will respond poorly to acid exposure. If it has Portland cement as part of its make-up, it would be a very poor idea.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


If money is no object:

http://www.precisioncoating.com/datasheets/PCCI2007E020-RevB.pdf


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Harold_V said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just stoking my fireplace and was staring at the fire and a thought hit me. It has not been mentioned about the possability of using the material in a pireflace insert that looks like concrete to make a fume/inceneration hood. Any one know what kind of material it is?
> 
> 
> 
> A refractory of sorts.
> 
> Not a real good idea in that it will respond poorly to acid exposure. If it has Portland cement as part of its make-up, it would be a very poor idea.
> 
> Harold
Click to expand...


I think it will be a refractory because if it were portland cement it would crack under the heat. And yea I know people say they crack but is that because of heat or abuse? I used a fireplace full time in the winter for 4 years and it never cracked because I was careful with putting wood in. I can't say with the one I have now because this is the first year I have used this one. I'll see if I can get hold of the guy that did the inspection on my fire place and ask what it is and if I can get a piece and I will see what acid will do to it.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Irons said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just stoking my fireplace and was staring at the fire and a thought hit me. It has not been mentioned about the possability of using the material in a pireflace insert that looks like concrete to make a fume/inceneration hood. Any one know what kind of material it is?
> 
> 
> 
> A refractory of sorts.
> 
> Not a real good idea in that it will respond poorly to acid exposure. If it has Portland cement as part of its make-up, it would be a very poor idea.
> 
> Harold
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If money is no object:
> 
> http://www.precisioncoating.com/datasheets/PCCI2007E020-RevB.pdf
Click to expand...


That would work for finishing the joint's.


----------



## goldnugget77

http://img233.imageshack.us/i/25214328.jpg/

I would like to know if the air that goes into the scrubber will
go outside the window or do I need to buy another motor to suck that air to the outside
Thanks


----------



## 4metals

I've seen some pretty intricate systems over the years but I have NO clue what you're trying to accomplish from that sketch, more details please.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Looks like there is a header system trying to incorporate more than one system into the scrubber. To complicated for what is necessary.


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## goldnugget77

Hi 4metals and Barren
Thanks for your help
The green line is for melting and nothing to do with acids so you can forget about it


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6211&p=57152&hilit=Scrapper+aw+&sid=0b0e35728be6e5cbc707fbaa356d7eb3#p57152

The idea is to make a system like that of scrapper
The red is for the system where you see the reactors 
One pipe with 5 valves directed towards the motor 2 which is the blower
The bad air goes into the motor and then into the scrubber and then outside

The blue is a secondary system in the same fume hood
The bad air goes into the motor and then into the scrubber and then outside

The scrubber is made from a plastic barrel about 4 feet high I think they are about 50 gallons.
I am wondering that once the bad air is forced into the scrubber will it come out of there and go outside or will it just stay there 
then I would have to buy another blower

I hope was able to explain well
Thanks again


----------



## Frankk12

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
If you look at this picture
the poisonous fumes go into the scrubber without a blower.
here it says that only 1 blower is used
I am wondering if 4metals actually build a system like this or it is hypothetical.


----------



## 4metals

Nothing hypothetical about it, 1 blower can draw for both the scrubber and the hood, The catch is the input to the scrubber is limited by the intake manifold so the cfm of the scrubber does not have to be high. The hood and scrubber have to be balanced with the dampers.


----------



## Refiner232121

by having 2 blower motors would you be getting cleaner breathing air in your refining room that is about
12 feet by 12 feet than if you had 1 motor blower


----------



## HAuCl4

One of those industrial type wet-filter vaccuum cleaners is a device worth looking at for sucking and scrubbing. Robot Rainbow was the one I used many years ago, with some modifications and external tanks. Amazing how they pull.


----------



## Refiner232121

Hi HAuCl4
I went to their web site and its only in Spanish do you have more info
http://www.robotrainbow.com/


----------



## HAuCl4

Found this link with several brands of equipment. The one I used was not your average home type device but industrial, which was sturdier, bigger. I can't find the exact type right now. I used to put a tank or two with water and soda ash in front, so that the fumes "bubbled" through and basically clean air passed through the vaccuum and was discharged outside, but I think you'll need a different liquid or system for NOxx and or acid scrubbing. I was scrubbing chlorine/chlorides which scrubbed easily. Changed the water weekly for the vaccum, but I wasn't refining that often, only once or twice per week.

http://www.vacuumwizard.com/vacuum-cleaners-with-water-filters.html


----------



## goldnugget77

I tried to find 6 inch pipe but I couldn't so I took 4 inch
I also noticed that my 
4 feet high I think they are about 50 gallons.
is not high as described by 4metals
I will probably make another system or modify this one
also I could find a damper to fit into the 4 inch pipe 
In the 4metals diagram it is the 5 inch pipe


----------



## PreciousMexpert

I will be building a scrubber like the picture 4metals posted in the beginning
and the closest material I found to what I can make
is pvc pipe used for ventillation and it is in grey
it is 24 inches in diameter 
they are minum of 20 feet 
so it is going to cost about 800 dollars 
i am going to take a look at it now
can someone tell me if the is suitable


----------



## butcher

Do you have an irragation supply, they usually have a green type pvc pipe in large diameters for water and culvert pipe, which may be cheaper than the gray pvc (which sounds like electrical conduit pvc).


----------



## Barren Realms 007

The grey electrical pipe comes in 10' sections.


----------



## lazersteve

A side note about the gray PVC. I was speaking to a guy at Lowes a few weeks back and he told me that the gray PVC gets it's color from lead that is added to the PVC.

Steve


----------



## eeTHr

lazersteve;

I was just looking at your post about Wonderboard, in that other thread.

Has anyone tried, or have an opinion about, glazed ceramic tile on top of the Wonderboard? I think the tile has already been fired in a kiln to begin with, so it seems like it should stand up to the heat. And the glaze is like glass or silica (for chemical resistance), isn't it? And it would be pretty easy to clean, I think.

The grout for the tile might have problems, though. Both from heat and chemicals.

But the tile part sure seems like it would work out well.


----------



## golddie

Hi Folks
1st Part
115v

overall pump dimensions (inches)
.................... Cord 
Height......... 5......... 5
Width.........3.91....... 4 
Length........8.12 .......8.77


This is acid resistant and I already bought it and I hope that it will be enough to be used for a fume hood like 4metals has built

2nd part
Also have built the fume hood and the scrubber and maybe in a few days I will be ready to test the system and I am a bit nervous about it because thing can always go wrong but I have tried to copy everything the way 4metals made it so I am optimistic that this will be successful
My question is that how can I test the system without actually doing refining because I would prefer to use something that is not harmful 

3rd part
I think this was already asked but I don't know where it is 
How do you stop a reaction in case of emergency 
I think 4metals said ice
Does Baking soda(Sodium Bicarbonate) stop a AR reaction
Thanks


----------



## eeTHr

golddie---

Here is a suggestion: Turn your system on, put a small Corningware casserole dish, about 6" x 6", in there, and pour about 1/4 inch of HCl into it. Open the HCl inside the hood, and re-cap it inside the hood.

If you don't smell anything at this point, it's sucking air pretty good.

Walk down wind of your exhaust. If you don't smell anything, the neighbors won't either. Either you are scrubbing most everything out of the hood air, or it's dissapating in the outside air.

A further test would be to add about a teaspoonfull of nitric to the HCl, opening and closing the nitric container inside the hood. Do the smell tests again.

Put a small piece of base metal into the casserole. Do the smell tests again.

Heat the casserole in the hood. Do the smell tests again.

This should give a good indication, with relatively little risk.

If you reeeeeealy want to know how much scrubbing you've got, tape or hold a litmus strip at the exhaust opening for 60 seconds, and see what it does. I don't know how to interpret that into ppm or anything, but it would give you some general idea.

Unless you will have the EPA testing it, the amount of reduction of fumes you need is up to you and your neighbors sense of smell, and the surrounding metallic property.

That's just my opinion, though.


----------



## KEV2MO

goldsilverpro said:


> You can also have a coating, in a variety of plastics, "chopped" on. The last time I had a hood coated, I found a local guy with the equipment that made tornado shelters. He "chopped" on a coating of PVC fairly inexpensively. I also used the same PVC coating on wooden silver cells with great success.
> 
> I don't know exactly how these "choppers" work. I think it is molten plastic, chopped into small increments by a "chopper" gun and sprayed on. No solvents are involved. Maybe, bed liners are applied the same way.
> 
> Once, I had a 12' long hood made from bare plywood and I used it for about 5 years with no noticeable deterioration. I used two fair sized belt-driven squirrel cage blowers, in tandem, run off the same motor. The motor sat on top of the hood. I never, never incinerated in that hood and never had any problems.


YEH , I KNOW , HOW ABOUT THE ONE I JUST BUILT YOU ! THINK IT WILL LAST ? KEV


----------



## golddie

Hi Folks
I purchased one of these for 270 dollars and I see that the guy over charged me for it and on top of that the pump is too weak for this job, I will call him tomorrow and try to change it 
He had told me that he does not do exchanges when I bought it 
Am I doing something wrong is this pump the right size
March Pump 
AC-3CP-MD
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/march_pump/series_3_march_pumps.htm
http://www.marchpump.com/documents/Part%20Sheets/3-Series/0130-0032-1000.pdf


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Folks
> I purchased one of these for 270 dollars and I see that the guy over charged me for it and on top of that the pump is too weak for this job, I will call him tomorrow and try to change it
> He had told me that he does not do exchanges when I bought it
> Am I doing something wrong is this pump the right size
> March Pump
> AC-3CP-MD
> http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/march_pump/series_3_march_pumps.htm
> http://www.marchpump.com/documents/Part%20Sheets/3-Series/0130-0032-1000.pdf



What do you mean by too weak? Have you got a picture of what conditions the pump is running under?
If your pump has to pull the fluid up from a low place that will effect the flow rate. If it has to pump up to a high point or a long distance that will effect the flow rate. The inlet for the pump is 3/4" if you have reduced the inlet down to 1/2" pipe that will efeect the flow rate. The pump shows a 1/2" discharge. If you increase your discharge pipe to 3/4" this might help some. Need a little more info and picture if possible.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren
Thanks for your help
I have made a system like the one 4metals designed
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
I don't have pictures today but I will explain it a bit
From the spray nozzle I am not getting a spray and all I am getting is drips of water running
The flow of the drip is not light but it also is not very fast.
The bucket I am using is something I got from wall mart and its about 3 feet by 3 feet
The tank I have is very high so the pipe has to go up about 6-8 feet high than go forward 6-7 feet and like I said 
its similar to that on the first page of that thread
Also I have to check to see if I reduced the pipe dimension but I think they are 
Inlet: 3/4" FPT
Outlet: 1/2" MPT


----------



## Barren Realms 007

AHH ok this is for your scrubber. Is there any media for the scrubber in the container that you are pumping out of? Your piping should not be a problem. Sounds like either you have and obstruction in the pipe that you are pumping out of or maybe your pump is not primed. You might want to put a screen over the opening of the suction pipe and put a check valve on the sucton line so your pump will stay primed. I am going to assume that you got the 110V model and that the motor is not reversable. Check your instructions and make shure this is a 110V motor only, if the motor can be run in 110V or 220V then you might want to take the back plate off and make shure it is wired for 110V.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren 
Thanks for your help
This scrubber I have built has a few flaws and the reason is because I of me.
There is the problem with the pump and on top of that I goofed when making one of the holes
If you look in the picture you can see what I mean.
Right now I am not in my shop so I cant go to the scrubber to see things
First I will talk about the pump
From what I understand you say the pump should be primed
That is something I will do 
In the picture I have written 
I do not have a valve here
I will put a valve there and how fine should the screen be that is place 


> put a screen over the opening of the suction pipe


Once I try these things than I will know whether to play around with the motor

Now for my problem with the leak
I had a simple attachment part that I bought from my local hardware to fit into that hole 
This would have been perfect

I decided to get something better and I bought an attachment that was better and with a bigger hole
for the 3 inch pipe
I had to get a pipe reducer for this thing and I had to make a bigger hole

The problem is I didn't glue this thing because there was a rubber in between the attachment and that tank
and this attachment has something where you can screw in a bolt from the inside of the tank
but the tank is too big and the hole on top is too small for me to go in there
so I just put that attachments in there without glue.

Yesterday I filled that tank with water and it started to leak
How can I fix this mess.
I have some silicon caulking but I think I would need something better than that like glue
I have the 3 different glues fo plumbing pipe
the gray ,yellow and white.
I am thinking of gluing the fitting attachment that has rubber in between
Can I glue the rubber with one of these glues 
I am thinking of gluing the rubber the to attachment and than glue that to the tank
http://img259.imageshack.us/i/hoodandscrubber00116222.jpg/
Thanks again


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Barren
> Thanks for your help
> This scrubber I have built has a few flaws and the reason is because I of me.
> There is the problem with the pump and on top of that I goofed when making one of the holes
> If you look in the picture you can see what I mean.
> Right now I am not in my shop so I cant go to the scrubber to see things
> First I will talk about the pump
> From what I understand you say the pump should be primed
> That is something I will do
> In the picture I have written
> I do not have a valve here
> I will put a valve there and how fine should the screen be that is place
> 
> 
> 
> put a screen over the opening of the suction pipe
> 
> 
> 
> Once I try these things than I will know whether to play around with the motor
> 
> Now for my problem with the leak
> I had a simple attachment part that I bought from my local hardware to fit into that hole
> This would have been perfect
> 
> I decided to get something better and I bought an attachment that was better and with a bigger hole
> for the 3 inch pipe
> I had to get a pipe reducer for this thing and I had to make a bigger hole
> 
> The problem is I didn't glue this thing because there was a rubber in between the attachment and that tank
> and this attachment has something where you can screw in a bolt from the inside of the tank
> but the tank is too big and the hole on top is too small for me to go in there
> so I just put that attachments in there without glue.
> 
> Yesterday I filled that tank with water and it started to leak
> How can I fix this mess.
> I have some silicon caulking but I think I would need something better than that like glue
> I have the 3 different glues fo plumbing pipe
> the gray ,yellow and white.
> I am thinking of gluing the fitting attachment that has rubber in between
> Can I glue the rubber with one of these glues
> I am thinking of gluing the rubber the to attachment and than glue that to the tank
> http://img259.imageshack.us/i/hoodandscrubber00116222.jpg/
> Thanks again
Click to expand...


I will start from the left of your picture and go to the right.

Question: What kind of material is your stack the the pipe from your fume hood connects to? If it is a pipe then the best way to fix that problem is to get a Tee and install on the bottom of the stack so you can glue your pipe from the fume hood into the stack. When you do this check with a plumbing supply house and ask for a FERNCO coupling to connect your pipe from the fume hood to the stack. This will allow you to service the stack in the future. If your stack is a square container then the best bet might be to fiberglass a small piece of pipe on to the stack and then connect your pipe from the fume hood to the stack. If you have never done fiberglass work it would be best to get someone that does this for a job because it is not someting for a novice to do. If you try to silicone it in it will not last and you will be back doing it again in the future.

Now between the stack and the tank your pump hooks up to you say you have a vlave to adjust the flow. You don't want to adjust the flow of water this way because if your pump runs dry it can over heat and burn it up. You want to adjust your flow of fluid by the vlave on top of the pump in your picture going up to your stack. This might also be why you are not able to pump fluid to the stack. You want to adjust your flow on the exit side of your pump so it does not loose prime on the pump. The screen should have holes no larger that 1/8".

You would be better suited having the stack drain into the holding tank from to top of the holding tank it makes servicing easier and there will be less problems with leaking in the future. But you have already got this built so you can work around it.

If you have to rework this or for future reference it would be better if your suction pipe from your pump goes down thru the top of your holding tank so you don't have problems in the future. You can do this by building a platform for your pump that sits higher than your tank. You will have less problems with a setup like this than trying to tap into the side of the tank anf ind a gasket that will work.

Your glues: Grey is for SCH80 pipe but it will work with other piping as well, The yellow glue is best for CPVC piping but it will work on other piping as well, Your white actualy it is refered to as clear glue is best for use on most all white piping. If you want strength get some blue blue for use in your white piping because it can be used even if the pipe joint has water on it and it will still set up and hold. Make shure you use cleaner when you are glueing you pipes together. Make shure you use enough glue and cleaner to get a good coat on what you are working on. And use the glue and cleaner on both pieces you are gluing together.

A few pictures would help to guide you better so I can see what kind of material you are working with.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren
The tank is polyethylene and round tube

the pipe from the fume hood is black plumbing pipe I think its called pvc

and the fitting to connect the together is gray colored plumbing part
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://uscorp.thomasnet.com/ImgMedium/Heavy-Duty-Bulkhead-Fitting.gif&imgrefurl=http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hydro/msg0120132712710.html&usg=__dKL5sPt5maw5ZdhuQVUZAtpTVaQ=&h=200&w=187&sz=35&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=4HrrKPUhUmetFM:&tbnh=136&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dheavy%2Bduty%2Bbulk%2Bhead%2Bfitting%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D578%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=474&ei=nJwkTdWDLpKenwfr9szqDQ&oei=nJwkTdWDLpKenwfr9szqDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&tx=84&ty=84
looks like this 

Also I didn't understand why I should have Tee instead of what I have now

I will answer your other questions later 
Thanks very much


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Barren
> The tank is polyethylene and round tube
> 
> the pipe from the fume hood is black plumbing pipe I think its called pvc
> 
> and the fitting to connect the together is gray colored plumbing part
> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://uscorp.thomasnet.com/ImgMedium/Heavy-Duty-Bulkhead-Fitting.gif&imgrefurl=http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hydro/msg0120132712710.html&usg=__dKL5sPt5maw5ZdhuQVUZAtpTVaQ=&h=200&w=187&sz=35&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=4HrrKPUhUmetFM:&tbnh=136&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dheavy%2Bduty%2Bbulk%2Bhead%2Bfitting%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D578%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=474&ei=nJwkTdWDLpKenwfr9szqDQ&oei=nJwkTdWDLpKenwfr9szqDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&tx=84&ty=84
> looks like this
> 
> Also I didn't understand why I should have Tee instead of what I have now
> 
> I will answer your other questions later
> Thanks very much



Yes the black pipe is called PVC. It is best to keep your piping the same kind if you can makes using parts easier and you don't have to keep different glues and cleaners around. Keep It Simple.
The grey part you are showing is a bung hole adapter. You can try and find somone that can weld plastic and attch it to your stck that way and you will be ok for future use with no problem. If this is the type of fitting you are using you can do without the tee. A tee for pipine in a situation like you are building is easier in th elong run to work with because you can glue it and not have to have special work.


----------



## golddie

I just went to my local hardware and they suggested contact cement or water proof epoxy
so I bought marine epoxy where you mix 2 different pastes to make the glue it comes in a syringe


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I just went to my local hardware and they suggested contact cement or water proof epoxy
> so I bought marine epoxy where you mix 2 different pastes to make the glue it comes in a syringe



You can try it and see if it holds and I hope it does. I'm just letting you know what I have had to do in the past to make a situation like this work.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren
I hear what you are saying the glue is going to come loose sooner or later 
Here I saw how they did plastic welding 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNa3Txagma0&feature=related
it looks like a gun of some sort
where would I be able to fin something like this locally

How about this as an idea 
glue it fist and than weld it with plastic because the welding is only done around the edges


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuA6d49Z7Rc&feature=related
This is another idea
but these are only around the edges and not the whole surface area of the pieace


That is what i might do glue it for now with epoxy and than buy a kit for welding plastic
Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Yea you can try to glue it for now and see if it will hold long enough for you to find the tool to weld it with. Be sure and leave the gasket out because the glue or the welding will not stick to it. The welder I used was only about the size of the silver part in the 1st video and it uses argon gas if I remember right with it. The heated gas will help heat up the material you are welding and it also acts as a shield but I don't remember from what. I don't know if grainger will have anthing like this but you can look thru them or your local welder supply, but if that gets you no where find a company in your area that works with plastic and they might be able to guide you on where to go.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren 
With the gasket I dont think I will be able to weld it so I will have to do one or the other
Here is a kit I wonder if it will do the job
DIY Plastic Tank Repair Kit LD35W
http://www.northwestpolymers.ca/welders.html


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Yea leave the gasket out, the only time you will use the gasket is when you tighten the retaining nut on the inside. The gasket will not adhere to the glue or the welded seam.

I don't see why that kit would not work for what you are doing. For the cost I would say give it a try. But when you get it prctice with it before you weld the bung hole in so you know what it will do. If you can find some plastic tank to tear apart and practice on you will be able to see what you will need to do to make the seam sold and fuse the parts together.


----------



## golddie

I have another idea but I have never done something like this before
I could take a torch melt the surface on the piece that i want to weld and melt the surface of the area where the piece will go and stick them together.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I have another idea but I have never done something like this before
> I could take a torch melt the surface on the piece that i want to weld and melt the surface of the area where the piece will go and stick them together.



NO, NO, NO, NO. Very bad idea. A tourh will carbonize the plastic and then it will defilnety not stick togather and you can throw the tank away. Only process like this I know if is similar to piping where a metal plate heats up the plastic while it is in a cradel, it heats up both pieces at the same time and then the plate is removed and the pieces are squezed together while they are in a cradle. This is done with piping like gas pipe under ground. I have a system like this and you can't duplicate this with a tourch.


----------



## qst42know

No glue will last on polyethylene.

Polyethylene cannot be welded to PVC.

Bulk head fittings are made to install on near flat surfaces. You may be able to compensate for your tank radius and make a seal by using two gaskets one inside and one outside. Do not over tighten the bulk head fitting or you will squeeze the gasket out of place.

If you can't get two gaskets to seal you might try heating your PE tank with a heat gun and pressing to produce a suitable flat area for the bulk head fitting.


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know
I am not at my shop now and I had been thinking about what you said yesterday the tank is round and the piece is flat and will be a problem and I cant go inside the tank.

Even if I made the surface of the tank flat in that area what good is that going to do me
If I cant weld it and if I glue it the epoxy glue will last for a while but eventually it is going to come apart

Would thermoplastic welding be the same as the welding we were talking about before


----------



## golddie

The tank is about 9 foot high and if I am not wrong the hole on top is a little larger than my head so I might be able to go in there 
the width is about 4 foot diameter
If I go in there I can tighten it from the inside and I will not have to glue it but the idea of going in tank does not feel good 
Now it is new but if it needed maintenance in the future I would not be able to do the same


----------



## Oz

For what it is worth I would seek a permanent solution first. If you do something that you “think” might work, and it does for a while, you will gain confidence in your safety measures. I am assuming that your fume hood will be located indoors. Imagine if you will a couple of months down the road when you have gained confidence in your hood, it fails. Hopefully you will not have a serious reaction going at the time, but it would not be a lab I could feel comfortable working in.

Do yourself the favor of doing it right the first time, instead of possibly giving yourself a false sense of security.


----------



## golddie

Hi Folks
I called the company that sold me this tank and they said the hole on top of the tank is a man hole
There is already some kind of a fitting in the lower part of the tank and he said their man went in there to tighten that part

The tank looks a bit like this and the hole also looks the size of that hole
When I looked at that hole I said there is no way a person can fit in there
I know that when a persons head goes in a hole than their hole body will fit in there.
I will see if I can go in there I am a well fit person

I asked if there was another option and he said you can weld it and he also said that you cant weld PVC to polyethylene
But they do have the same part in polyethylene and he said you should get a professional welder 
http://www.power-pressure-washers.com/vertical-plastic-poly-tanks.htm


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Folks
> I called the company that sold me this tank and they said the hole on top of the tank is a man hole
> There is already some kind of a fitting in the lower part of the tank and he said their man went in there to tighten that part
> 
> The tank looks a bit like this and the hole also looks the size of that hole
> When I looked at that hole I said there is no way a person can fit in there
> I know that when a persons head goes in a hole than their hole body will fit in there.
> I will see if I can go in there I am a well fit person
> 
> I asked if there was another option and he said you can weld it and he also said that you cant weld PVC to polyethylene
> But they do have the same part in polyethylene and he said you should get a professional welder
> http://www.power-pressure-washers.com/vertical-plastic-poly-tanks.htm



That would make sense because the bulk head fittings I used that I welded were polyethylene. Glad you called thanks for the info.


----------



## qst42know

Spin fittings like this are a permanent solution but they are usually installed by the people who rotomold the tanks. They come in any number of sizes and thread configurations internal, external, and hose barb. They are spun at high rpm and friction weld in place.

Nothing will slow a liquid pump down faster than a stream of bubbles, you may need to fix your leak before you change the pump.

One source of spin fittings.

http://www.aimsfasteners.com/pd_cp_fittings.html

(link added)


----------



## golddie

I think I am going to have it welded by a pro with the same materiel on both sides
As for the guy saying that they had a person go in a do the installing I do not believe that.
The hole is too small for even a skinny teenager with a tiny head to fit in that hole
I looked at the shape of the pipe and I say it was lowered with a rope and they fished for the rope from the outside hole and did the installation


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I think I am going to have it welded by a pro with the same materiel on both sides
> As for the guy saying that they had a person go in a do the installing I do not believe that.
> The hole is too small for even a skinny teenager with a tiny head to fit in that hole
> I looked at the shape of the pipe and I say it was lowered with a rope and they fished for the rope from the outside hole and did the installation



I have crawled thru a 6"" high x 18" wide hold. You have to stick your arms in first and then let your body follow. it's not fun but it can be done. :shock:


----------



## golddie

Hi Folks 
Thanks for your help
Barren I measured that hole on top of the tank and it is about 6 inches.


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
Like this picture shows I have another attachment on top and I glued it and it probably the bonding will not be a very good one
I have not done any testing with acid fumes.
I will change the other attachment in the bottom but this one is practically impossible and I am saying since there is no water over there can I get away with silicon caulking
Thanks


----------



## JOEYL

Ive read the thread and the other lab building thread.

I understand the concept with the scrubber, curious if anyone or 4metals have some real life photos of a unit and design.
This would help me in designing my own unit and having it properly functional first time around.


----------



## golddie

The pump is working fine I tested it without the spray nozzle.
The problem is that the spray nozzle does not have a good mist 
It is a good kind.
Also when I tried to remove the pipes it become impossible to take apart.
I am guessing it is because of the water 
Does anyone have a trick for this


----------



## eeTHr

golddie---

Maybe the cold water shrunk the outside of the connections, and thus tightened them beyond the point that you did.


----------



## golddie

Hi eeTHr
Something like that happened and I must remove that one pipe from there because that is where the nozzle is and I am sure it is going to need maintenance.
Ill try again tomorrow 
I hope someone will have some magical solution
Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

You can try some hot water or a hair dryer to get them back apart. A touch or grease when you put them back together. A little sanding on the pipe before you reconnect them or a male and female threaded connector that you can unscrew. What kind of tip are you trying to use?


----------



## qst42know

golddie said:


> The pump is working fine I tested it without the spray nozzle.
> The problem is that the spray nozzle does not have a good mist
> It is a good kind.



Your spray nozzle may be to small for your pump output, or its plugged up. New installations always have some plastic bits floating around.




golddie said:


> Also when I tried to remove the pipes it become impossible to take apart.
> I am guessing it is because of the water
> Does anyone have a trick for this


 
The only trick I know is use a bigger wrench. :mrgreen:


----------



## golddie

Hi Folks
Thanks for your help
I will clean the inside of the pipe like you said Barren and I have a straight pipe that is capped off in the end.
I will draw a diagram tomorrow.
Maybe it is a piece of dirt in the pipe if not I am saying maybe because the pipe is 5 feet high and the pump cant push the water that high but I don't have experience in this maybe someone who know things like this can answer this


----------



## Barren Realms 007

The pump you showed earlier will handle what you are doing. Just depends on weather you have holes or slots in the pipe and how they are laid out for the spray. I would suggest thin slots in the pipe rather than holes, you will get a wider dispertion of your spray.


----------



## golddie

http://img515.imageshack.us/f/14781093.jpg/
My original scrubber was smaller so I said it would be better if I had something bigger one
now I am saying maybe thing think this is too big.
it is about 8 and a half feet high and about 4 feet in diameter.
This is not the same tank but it looks very much like it.
For now I only have water but if I had acidly water things will be different
Here is the latest problem with this big scrubber
I was telling you guys about the tube that was stuck there and wouldn't come loose
I have made a sketch and if you look where it says fitting that is where that joint is
and it is kind of hard for me to put my hand there to turn it
and I am thinking if I had to do maintenance when there was acidly water there 
how is it going to be possible.
here is an idea just came to me 
how about if I cut the pipe from where I have written spray nozzle 
and glue a fitting there
this way it might be easier to unscrew the pipe for maintenance
Does this seem like a good idea

Barren I didn't understand what you meant by slots 
what I have is a spray nozzle where I have marked that in the picture
Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

If you have a spray nozzel that will be fine, the slots would be cuts made partially around the pipe to serve the same purpose as the nozzels. With the disameter of the tank being 4' I would suggest you have 2 or 3 nozzels in a tank that size to give you a good dipersal of you spray. I would also suggest when you can to install a strainer with a fine mesh screen after your pump to catch small particals so your nozzel does not get clogged up. I would suggest that after the last 90 and before the pipe goes into the tank that you cut the pipe some where and install a male and female fitting so you can unscrew this and remove the nozzel from the tank to service it, do it half way between the 90 and the tank.

You haven't said what kind of media you are using inside the tank.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren 
Thanks for your help
When you say what kind of media what do you mean by that
If you mean the kind of plastic in the liquid
I am going to slice up water bottles


----------



## golddie

I just had a talk with the person that sold me the pump and I said I adjusted the flow of the water from everywhere and still not working
He called the makers of the pump and they said we cant do the engineering for the system.
It is working but I don't have a good mist
It seems to be better than before.
Maybe it will get better with time
Barren you were saying something about adjusting the wires
D you think that might be better.
Anyway I will go to my shop later and try the 3 nozzles at the the same time.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Barren
> Thanks for your help
> When you say what kind of media what do you mean by that
> If you mean the kind of plastic in the liquid
> I am going to slice up water bottles



Water bottles might work but I am not sure how well. considering the size of your tank to the amount of air you are moving thru it you might be ok.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I just had a talk with the person that sold me the pump and I said I adjusted the flow of the water from everywhere and still not working
> He called the makers of the pump and they said we cant do the engineering for the system.
> It is working but I don't have a good mist
> It seems to be better than before.
> Maybe it will get better with time
> Barren you were saying something about adjusting the wires
> D you think that might be better.
> Anyway I will go to my shop later and try the 3 nozzles at the the same time.



No real need for an engineer on this system. Your pump will put out way more volume than will go thru your nozzel. Just find out from where you purchased the nozzel out what the flow rate is on it. Open your adjustment valves wide open and let it rip. With that size of tank you will need all the flow that the system will pump to keep your media wet to absorb what you are running thru the scrubber. I am going to say you have something possibly clogging up your nozzel some, it dosen't take much to clog the nozzel and reduce the flow thru it.

Wires, wires, wires? What wires?


----------



## golddie

http://img98.imageshack.us/f/10222052.jpg/

I will have to change the design where the spray nozzle rests.
There is a big fault here and that I have to reach all the way to 
edge of the tank from a small hole and I didn't think about the acid when I made it and
also I didn't think it would be such a problem to remove that pipe from there.
I have made a sketch of the design and I will do this tomorrow 
Any ideas would be appreciated before I start this thing
I think you understand my idea from the picture
The parts are not exactly like mine but they are close
Also the the hole is getting narrower

Barren I have the invoice in front of me and I am trying to get more info about the nozzle and I cant
The only thing I have written here is that it is a 1/8 of an inch polypropylene full cone 
http://www.uni-spray.com/index.php


----------



## Barren Realms 007

The 1st picture you have showing 7/8" pipe is actually measured as 3/4" pipe and the one measured as 5/8" is 1/2" pipe in the trades. If your cut you are showing in on the outside of the tank you are correct in where you need to cut it. Cut the pipe far enough outside the tank that you can push it thru your hole in the tank and the piece sticking outside of the tank acts as a counter balance so you can get back around to it to screw the pipe back together. Something to think about is the pump you have can accomidate probably 10-15 of those spray nozzels you are showing. You will need to be concerned about there not being enough flow thru the pump for the liquid to keep the impeller cooled down and possibly melting it or causing other damage to the pump. You are on the right path. Another thing to consider is when you push your pipe into the tank is you might want to have the pipe long enough that you can have it stick thru the tank on the other side for support. Over a period of time the pipe might get brittle and the flexing of the pipe with the system running might cause it to break inside the tank.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren
I drew a top view
http://img375.imageshack.us/f/53930235.jpg/


----------



## Barren Realms 007

That is looking good just remember to add a couple more nozzels. It will be tough for one nozzel to supply enough fluid to properly scrub your solution coming from the fume hood.


----------



## qst42know

4metals said:


> Some thoughts about spray nozzles.
> 
> The water and caustic that performs the scrubbing of the fume is delivered through a pipe to the top of the scrubber where it sprays on the packing, wetting the surfaces so they can interact with the NOx.



4metals

What materials have you tried as scrubber packing?

And which is your favorite?


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know 
The water bottles will not be enough so I will get these things


http://www.jaeger.com/tripack.htm


----------



## Refiner232121

http://www.jaeger.com/tripack.htm
These are great but I thought about another idea maybe you guys can tell me if it is good or not
How about taking a garden hose and slicing it into 1 inch pieces 
If the hose is heavy rubber I don't know if it will float and if it is light than it might 
I guess it is important to have it float
The thing with that jaeger tripack is that it is light and full of holes
maybe someone can tell me if the hoses will work
Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

The hose will become brittle and break into pieces at time goes by. The question of if they will float is not relevent since the colum is not full of fluid but just circulationg fluid that flows on the outer surface of the media to allow the contaminant from the hood to mix with the solution in the scrubber.


----------



## golddie

http://www.jaeger.com/tripack.htm
To fill a tank like mine 3 feet of these things will cost about $1,200 
That is really expensive
I don't know what to do
I dont have that many water bottles


----------



## golddie

I am $ 500 dollars of that thing and the rest I will slice up shapoo bottles and every kind of plastic bottles.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I am $ 500 dollars of that thing and the rest I will slice up shapoo bottles and every kind of plastic bottles.



ROFL. Patience man. 8)


----------



## qst42know

Know anywhere you could place some recycle boxes?


----------



## Frankk12

why pay money for something you could find in the garbage


----------



## PreciousMexpert

There must be something extra that those balls can do 
maybe they can mix the water better


----------



## qst42know

PreciousMexpert said:


> There must be something extra that those balls can do
> maybe they can mix the water better



Lot's of surface area with no dead space.


----------



## golddie

qst42know
Than you think it is worth buying


----------



## qst42know

That I don't know, but certainly not with my $1200. :lol: 

I get how they work or how they are supposed to, but $1200 would be hard for me to justify.


----------



## golddie

I am going to call them tomorrow and cancel the order


----------



## qst42know

Don't base your decision on me.

A similar product is used in salt water fish tank wet dry filters called bio-balls.


----------



## JOEYL

JOEYL said:


> Ive read the thread and the other lab building thread.
> 
> I understand the concept with the scrubber, curious if anyone or 4metals have some real life photos of a unit and design.
> This would help me in designing my own unit and having it properly functional first time around.



Any help with real life photos of a fume hood with fume scrubber? Could help me out alot with my own unit..


----------



## golddie

http://www.jaeger.com/tripack.htm
If these cover more surface area than you can save one the lye being used and also have more metals in the water
Is this right or am i wrong
by the way I have decided to take 300 dollars of these things 
I was saying I will have 3 feet of water in the tank but I think it will be less than that

So far I didn't come across any pictures


----------



## golddie

http://www.jaeger.com/tripack.htm
I just picked up these things and I paid 340 dollars and this will be enough for my scrubber
The person made a mistake when he said 1,200 dollars
He said he sells these things to fish farms


----------



## golddie

These amount of the plastic balls I have a 10 CF
I didnt put them in the scrubber yet but the amount looks like its more than enough to fill 3 feet of the scrubber.
But the person selling me this said I need about 3 more than this amount.
He sounds like an honest person 
Can anyone explain this to me 
Thanks


----------



## qst42know

You should have asked the salesman how they determined you needed more.
They may well have just did a volume calculation of your tank. 

The balls that are submerged in solution will do little, and open air above won't do much either.


----------



## PreciousMexpert

> The balls that are submerged in solution will do little, and open air above won't do much either.



qst42know
Can explain this a bit I am confused
From the way you say it they should not be in the water and they should not be out of the water than where should they be.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

The nozzels in the top of the colum spray the solution, the solution trickles down over the media and mixes with the fumes or material from you scrubber to neutralize it. There should not be much if any fluid that collects in the bottom of your scruber that should be held in your tank that your pump pulls your solution from.


----------



## 4metals

The balls should have a surface film of water on them to work effectively. This is accomplished by pumping the scrubbing liquid through the nozzles over the bed of packing. The water level in the sump should not be so high as to submerge any of the packing. The air water interface is where the reaction happens.

As far as determining how much packing is needed the question being asked should be the CFM going through the scrubber. (which is not necessarily the CFM of the blower, it depends on your ducting) The longer the fumes remain in the working area of the scrubber (the wetted packing) the more effective the scrubber.


----------



## golddie

http://www.germes-online.com/catalog/17/745/page15/144878/siphon_pumps.html

I had been looking hard to find flexible tubes to use inside a fume hood and I couldn't get them
The place where I bought my glass ware said he has but he didn't sell it to me he said hell give it to me next time I go there
When I bought a siphon today I realized that the tubes from these things might be good for what I need 
I didn't think about it at the time
Tomorrow I will go there and see if I can buy only the tubes or just buy the pump


----------



## qst42know

What diameter are you looking for. A pool supply store should have 1-1/4", 1-1/2" and 2".

Or you can try here.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.aspx?catid=567&parentcatid=681


----------



## golddie

So far I have 10 CF of these scrubber balls and to fill the whole thing I would need 3 times more or something like that
and I have sliced up some small water bottles about 5 grocery bags
also I have slice up 3 grocery bags of bottles from antifreeze bottles javex bottles which are heavier
I dont know if you can image the weight of those scrubber balls individually they don't weight much but in all the 10 CF is heavy because these things are made very well and they don't crush under the weight of other things easily.
so i see a problem here if I fill that large scrubber of mine with a mixture of all these things the weight of the balls will flatten out all the other slice up things.
I can always place the balls in the bottom and gradually add more slice bottles on top but I have to remember that once there is a large quantity of these balls over the bottles it becomes a problem of the pieces being flattened out


----------



## qst42know

Your closed top tank doesn't give you many options for working inside. Ideally you need some plastic fencing or a screen to keep your media above the solution.

I think 4metals had mentioned once before cut lengths of PVC plumbing as a media?

Perhaps a large quantity of cut lengths of 1-1/2"" PVC would be a reasonable bed to keep your media out of the solution.


----------



## golddie

qst42know
Thanks for your help

If I made a bed from 1-1/2"" PVC pipes.
I would have to make holes in them 
Here I have drawn something tell me if I can add more to that

http://img834.imageshack.us/f/16892260.jpg/


----------



## Barren Realms 007

You shouldn't have to drill holes in the small plastic pipe.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren
The little red dots are the holes


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Short pieces means 1"-3" long.


----------



## golddie

I am thinking how I can add 2 different floors with a plastic screen to this tank
Remember I cant go inside maybe I can have pipes
Here is one idea
I lower 4 pipes with threads going through and open them to look like this
http://img717.imageshack.us/i/floorsg.jpg/
Of course I will have to drill little holes in the pipes for air space




> Short pieces means 1"-3" long.


Hi Barren
I don't understand this phrase


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I am thinking how I can add 2 different floors with a plastic screen to this tank
> Remember I cant go inside maybe I can have pipes
> Here is one idea
> I lower 4 pipes with threads going through and open them to look like this
> http://img717.imageshack.us/i/floorsg.jpg/
> Of course I will have to drill little holes in the pipes for air space
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Short pieces means 1"-3" long.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Barren
> I don't understand this phrase
Click to expand...


You would rather have 1" to 3" pieces of pipe cut for your media rather than long pieces with hol drilled in them. You will have less weight in the tank and better dispertion or mix with the short pieces of pipe rater than the long ones with holes in them.


----------



## golddie

I am hoping to throw in those balls and the sliced bottles today or tomorrow
and I am hoping that I don't make a mistake 
Its been one mistake after another with everything about this business
On some of the bottles I have the glue which is something I dont like but I dont think it will be a problem 
I not putting any bottles with paper on it

qst42know


> Ideally you need some plastic fencing or a screen to keep your media above the solution.


I am going to slice up pvc pipes like Barren said and try to create a barrier 
Thanks


----------



## PreciousMexpert

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
In this picture the fumes are going into the water
I am not sure if this is right or the water level should not be so high 
I thought the media should not touch water


----------



## 4metals

The fumes are not going into the water, the height the fume enters the scrubber is higher than the tank that holds the water. If those fumes are going into water the room has 2 feet of water in it!

The fume enters under the grating that holds the packing, that is not the water level. This allows the fume to disperse and fill the column as it rises.


----------



## golddie

I filled in the scrubber with all the things I have 
The bottom layer pvc pipes sliced 
over that I cut up a basket and threw that in there 
over that the balls
over that the sliced up antifreeze bottles also I threw in small water bottles 
The only thing I regret doing is throwing in bottle that had paint on them I thought about it later because the paint can have lead
Also when you look at the space these Jagger balls occupy it is really amazing 
it is so dense compared to the bottles
I am thinking of ordering the smallest size of those balls and throwing it in there so it will fill up the space in between the balls.
Thanks for all you help
I am sure I will have more questions in the future


----------



## golddie

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
The model of my system is similar to this
The only difference is the scrubber and that is 8 feet high and its a bit wider than the picture

This is the blower and the motor I am using
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2c863&op=search&Ntt=2c863&N=0&sst=subset
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=3k771&op=search&Ntt=3k771&N=0&sst=subset
I have not tested this thing yet but I am thinking what will happen if it does not work
For example how is the air going to be pulled out from where its marked no 1 in the fume hood in the second picture

I forgot to mention that the scrubber is not completely full
About a quarter of it is still empty


----------



## Oz

Save some room for your spray heads.


----------



## golddie

Hi Oz
Thanks
I need all the help I can get
When you are doing something for the first time you don't think of the most basic things
When I threw in the pvc pipe in the bottom layer I didnt pay attention to see if the 2 holes in the bottom of the tank hand their entrance open
I will find out later on today
I hope they are not blocked 
If they are than it will be more work for me 
I will have to push something in the holes to free the path 
I hope today I will be able to use this fume hood and the scrubber
Thanks again


----------



## Oz

golddie said:


> When I threw in the pvc pipe in the bottom layer I didnt pay attention to see if the 2 holes in the bottom of the tank hand their entrance open


Use a butter tub with perferations inverted to get your free space for draining if it is a problem.


----------



## golddie

Hi Oz
The thing is I cant get to the inside of the scrubber 
It is impossible 
Thanks


----------



## golddie

Hi Folks
The fume hood and the scrubber is working 
For a moment I thought something might go wrong but thank God Everything was OK
I boiled some polishing dirt in HCL and water
I have a separate room for refining there is a slight odor of acid but I always have to check for leaks here and there
But the place where I have my other room is perfect and no acid smell
I am very happy about this 
Now I can concentrate on my refining
Thanks to 4metals for his design
Also Thanks Barren Realms 007 & qst42know and all others who helped me


----------



## jeneje

I have read this thread and have a question. I have built a 5' hood and two 12" x12" stacks. in the first stack i have done what you suggested cut up 2-liter bottles for the packing. I have alot of birds and wildlife around my house, whitch brings me to my question. Can I use the same packing in the second tower to remove the rest of the contaminates. And will it be safe for my wild neiagbors, I dont want to endanger them. I will be using this system to refine e-scrap. I have several tons of pins and boards along with jewerly scrap. I will be using electrolisos with acid and glycerin. I will also be using AR and a nictric acid bath to remove the foils from the pins. will this system be safe to me and my friends.

Thanks
Ken


----------



## 4metals

This design scrubber definitely works but the design has a finite capacity. Every design does. This scrubber can handle a moderate quantity of NOx, as in the quantity outgassing off a 100 oz karat digestion. You have to slowly work up to your efficient scrubbing capacity and once you learn what it is, don't exceed it without upgrading. You also have to determine when to change out the scrubbing liquid to lower the TDS and restore efficiency. It's a learning curve. 

Then both you and the birds will be happy.


----------



## golddie

For now I am boiling water and HCL 
The first day I did this there was a big hole in the system and I didn't notice it because it was the first day
yesterday was the second day I patched up all the holes big and small
the air seems much better than the first day
I know that there are companies that do air quality checks and give you a report on that
I was wondering if I can do something myself or do I have to rely on my nose for that.

4metals
Since my tank is a bit larger that what you have in your design I guess I would be able to process more gold.
My tank is about 8 and a half feet high and 4 feet in diameter.
how do you calculate this amount 
also I guess the kind of material you have in the scrubber can make a small difference
Thanks


----------



## jeneje

Thanks 4metals, but I have another question, how tall should the scrubber be at 12" square using a 3500 cfm blower. I made my 10" square 4'6" tall I dont think it will work. I noticed that after the fact yours in the digram was 12" square. Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

jeneje said:


> Thanks 4metals, but I have another question, how tall should the scrubber be at 12" square using a 3500 cfm blower. I made my 10" square 4'6" tall I dont think it will work. I noticed that after the fact yours in the digram was 12" square. Thanks



I think you have just a little bit too much air movement there.


----------



## jeneje

Ok Berran,
I will agree with that, how do I figure out the cfm for say a 12'" square scrubber 8' feet tall. Any help here would be appreciated.

Thanks
Ken


----------



## Barren Realms 007

jeneje said:


> Ok Berran,
> I will agree with that, how do I figure out the cfm for say a 12'" square scrubber 8' feet tall. Any help here would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> Ken



Well you are using the wrong place to do you calculation. You want to do your calculation on the size of your hood not the size of your scrubber tower. You want to make sure that you have enough air flow that it is always pulling air into your fume hood from the opening so you do not get any whiffs of fumes. Looking at the size of your hood I would guess 200-300 CFM would be adequate for what you are trying to accomplish.


----------



## jeneje

Thanks Berran,

The hood is 4' x 2' x 30" tall. I will down size the cfm's. Just to make sure on something else the longer the fumes are in the scrubber before exiting the better the cleaning, is this right.

Thanks
Ken


----------



## Barren Realms 007

jeneje said:


> Thanks Berran,
> 
> The hood is 4' x 2' x 30" tall. I will down size the cfm's. Just to make sure on something else the longer the fumes are in the scrubber before exiting the better the cleaning, is this right.
> 
> Thanks
> Ken



You can't go on the amount of time your air coming from the fume hood stays in your scrubber. You will need to test the air exiting the scrubber on ocation to make sure no residue is exiting the scrubber.


----------



## 4metals

Jeneje

An option is to use the majority of the exhaust for the hood and throttle down the draw that sucks through the scrubber if you have 4 cubic feet of packed scrubbing area, with a full flow through the scrubber you will turn about 14.5 times the air per second more than needed. You want the air to be in the packing being scrubbed for a half second, the more the better. With a 4 cubic foot packed bed you should be looking for 120 cfm, that's pretty small, double the height and aim for a 250 - 300 cfm flow. You could also reverse the pulleys on the blower (unless it is direct drive) to lessen the cfm. I would break the exhaust into 2 streams, one to scrub with a slow flow to assure scrubbing, and the balance to a hood for the fugitive emissions. (un-scrubbed)


----------



## Refiner232121

1) 4metals diagram design is 12 inches diameter and about 9 feet high
2) there is another picture on this thread I think its hoover and strong it looks like about 24-30 inches diameter and about 10 feet high
3) the one golddie made which is about 8 feet high and 4 feet in diameter
golldie said there is some odor where he refines ,does he need a stronger blower is it normal to have a bit of smell in a room like that or a scrubber that size is too large and maybe the adjustment of the damper is something important


----------



## golddie

I am getting good sucking from this fume hood and if I have smell it is from leaks.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2c863&op=search&Ntt=2c863&N=0&sst=subset
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=3k771&op=search&Ntt=3k771&N=0&sst=subset
How would I calculate the power of the motor I will need 


> With a 4 cubic foot packed bed you should be looking for 120 cfm, that's pretty small, double the height and aim for a 250 - 300 cfm flow.


Maybe the answer is here but I cant figure this out


----------



## jeneje

Thanks 4metals, I will try it. I think when it is done i will do some tests first to get the right air flow, I will shut for 175 t0 250 to start. Thanks if I have a prolbem I will post again. 

Thanks


----------



## golddie

> you should have 250 cfm


Can anyone say how many cfm is this 
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2c863&op=search&Ntt=2c863&N=0&sst=subset
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=3k771&op=search&Ntt=3k771&N=0&sst=subset


----------



## 4metals

That blower with no resistance is 900 cfm with 1/4" it's 788 cfm and with 1/2" it's 655 cfm

Generally a scrubber adds 1/4 to 1/2 an inch of resistance, then you have to add in the fittings resistance.


----------



## golddie

Hi 4metals
I appreciate your help 
My scrubber is working very well
I am not able to understand the meaning of your sentence 
resistance 
no resistance 
quarter inch 
half inch
What would these be
Thanks


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Have you ever watched a wind tunnel test where smoke was used to show air turbulance? The swirls of air are considered as turbulance. Anytime something deflects air is causes turbulance and thus causes resistance.


----------



## 4metals

Goldie,

Air flowing through a straight pipe would have little resistance offered from the pipe, if you were to add an elbow, the air has to bounce around the turn, colliding with the side of the pipe during the turn and it causes a measurable resistance. If you have lots of turns, there is more resistance. Actually even the straight pipe has some resistance so long pipe runs also have resistance. 

Resistance is measures in inches of water column. A blower drawing its flow through a pipe could lift the water up a pipe by 1, 2 or more inches, depending on the design of the blower. Lets say your blower could pull a water column of 1 inch without restrictions. Now add your scrubber, duct, fittings and packing and the same blower will only pull say 1/2 inch of water. Then the resistance would be 1/2 inch and the pump which unimpeded pulled 1 inch now pulls 1/2 inch. 

When you buy blowers somewhere on the specs they give different flows at different resistances.Then you simply select a blower to deliver what you want given the resistance of your system and your flow requirements.


----------



## golddie

Hi 4metals
Thanks for your explanation now I understand better
I see that the problem with my blower for my furnace is related to this question 
Here I have drawn a sketch and I will remove this filter because it is the main cause of the problem 
This thing is not sucking out the air and when I use the furnace for a bit than the whole place gets filled with smoke
http://img694.imageshack.us/i/70094407.jpg/
I have changing the location of the filter and it is better when it is in the other side of the blower.
I am wondering if I had a more powerful motor on the blower if that would help and what should be the size of the motor
Thanks


----------



## golddie

http://img62.imageshack.us/i/15545804.jpg/
I had a reaction of silver fillings in nitric and water and I wanted to direct the fumes to go into this mini scrubber about a 2 foot bucket this is so I can reuse the nitric
I had cold water in the mini scrubber and sliced water bottles.
The thing is I wasn't sure if the fumes would go into that bucket.
This is being done in the fume hood and the blue line is directed into the valve of the fume hood
Thanks


----------



## qst42know

Golddie

Do you have anti virus software on your computer?

Every time I look at your images a Trojan virus tries to load.


----------



## Oz

golddie said:


> I had a reaction of silver fillings in nitric and water and I wanted to direct the fumes to go into this mini scrubber about a 2 foot bucket this is so I can reuse the nitric


Silver fillings? Did you retort these before digesting in nitric? Silver fillings contain mercury, both mercury and silver go into solution with nitric.


----------



## golddie

qst42know
I have virus protection but that web site is a very popular image site I think it is a good site

Oz
I have been doing a very small amount for experimenting but I never heard that before I wonder if Harold used a retort for refining silver.Since I have been refining these few batches I have used a mask but my eyes are kind of hear-ting me its like something is piercing them do you think it could be from that or is it my imagination.

I should also say that these fillings are from jewelers benches and not dentists
Thanks


----------



## Oz

OK, you mean jewelry filings, not dentist fillings. In that case the chance of mercury contamination is low.

Notice how just a one letter misspelling can make all the difference in the world!


----------



## bigjohn

qst42know said:


> Golddie
> 
> Do you have anti virus software on your computer?
> 
> Every time I look at your images a Trojan virus tries to load.



Same thing happened to me. It's AVG trying to load.


----------



## Harold_V

golddie said:


> qst42know
> I have virus protection but that web site is a very popular image site I think it is a good site
> 
> Oz
> I have been doing a very small amount for experimenting but I never heard that before I wonder if Harold used a retort for refining silver.Since I have been refining these few batches I have used a mask but my eyes are kind of hear-ting me its like something is piercing them do you think it could be from that or is it my imagination.
> 
> I should also say that these fillings are from jewelers benches and not dentists
> Thanks


This is an EXCELLENT example of why I keep harping on *correct spelling and word selection*. You clearly stated that you are dissolving fillings (two l's), which implies something from a tooth---dental amalgam, which contains more than 50% mercury. One letter difference and the meaning is different, enough to be a problem. 

What you are discussing is filings (one l). They come from a jeweler's bench and likely do NOT contain mercury. 

No problem-----we now understand what your question is. 

Harold


----------



## qst42know

Golddie

Get this reaction in your fume hood before you get hurt or worse. If your eyes are burning this should tell you something, get away from there.
Cartridge respirators are ineffective!!!

Clipped from: 

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/n3660.htm



> Personal Respirators (NIOSH Approved):
> If the exposure limit is exceeded, wear a supplied air, full-facepiece respirator, airlined hood, or full-facepiece self-contained breathing apparatus. Nitric acid is an oxidizer and should not come in contact with cartridges and canisters that contain oxidizable materials, such as activated charcoal. Canister-type respirators using sorbents are ineffective.


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know
I appreciate your help on this important matter.
The amount was about 1 and a half inch of nitric in a coffee pot and already it felt like something was wrong in that room.
I have 2 blowers and I have made it so that I am able to use my fume hood for the furnace blower for getting cleaner air and I said maybe it will do more harm to have that extra hole because it can interfere with the other blower so I closed it and still the air was not better.
At crainger they also said that the carbon mask was ineffective and they refused to sell me one so I bought it from my local hardware and I didn't pay attention to them.
They called 3M and they also suggested compressed air that was of breathing quality.
I will not do any refining until I have this problem resolved and it looks like I will need one of those oxygen masks.
This is how my 2 blowers look 
http://img573.imageshack.us/f/safetyc.jpg/
I tried to use the image feature on this site but it didn't work sorry about that
Thanks for your help


> It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image.



Also I have seen so many pictures of people refining and they are using cartridge masks and because of that we assume that they are safe.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi qst42know
> I appreciate your help on this important matter.
> The amount was about 1 and a half inch of nitric in a coffee pot and already it felt like something was wrong in that room.
> I have 2 blowers and I have made it so that I am able to use my fume hood for the furnace blower for getting cleaner air and I said maybe it will do more harm to have that extra hole because it can interfere with the other blower so I closed it and still the air was not better.
> At crainger they also said that the carbon mask was ineffective and they refused to sell me one so I bought it from my local hardware and I didn't pay attention to them.
> They called 3M and they also suggested compressed air that was of breathing quality.
> I will not do any refining until I have this problem resolved and it looks like I will need one of those oxygen masks.
> This is how my 2 blowers look
> http://img573.imageshack.us/f/safetyc.jpg/
> I tried to use the image feature on this site but it didn't work sorry about that
> Thanks for your help
> 
> 
> 
> It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I have seen so many pictures of people refining and they are using cartridge masks and because of that we assume that they are safe.
Click to expand...


If you will send me the picture's in an email I will get them posted for you. If they are too large I will get you to retake them unless Steve can post me a link to the program that makes them smaller that he posted a while back.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren
I tried to post with a reduced size and still didnt work
I will try to read the page on this site that show how to post pictures
Thanks


----------



## qst42know

From the tool bar, "image", then "resize-resample".

http://www.irfanview.com/


----------



## lazersteve

The Guided Tour link has detailed instructions on how to resize and post images. Check the Useful Tutorials section or take the Guided Tour Link.

Repeating the same information here will only serve to fragment the forum content further.

Steve


----------



## golddie

It looks like I will have to buy one of these
I would also like to how our veteran refiners protected themselves from all these dangerous chemicals
Thanks
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/NORTH-BY-HONEYWELL-Respirator-Hood-4GM52?Pid=search
# Supplied Air System Accessories


----------



## qst42know

I thought you had a fume hood?


----------



## Barren Realms 007

qst42know said:


> I thought you had a fume hood?



He is still trying to get it to work properly.


----------



## golddie

Hi Guys
The fume hood is working
For one thing I still have to buy a Plexiglas for the front of the fume hood and I didn't like the fact that there is the smell of acid in that room.
I am a freak when it comes to clean air and my whole shop smells clean but that room is not what I would like it to be.
I have heard of a lot of people dying or getting cancer from doing this profession so I don't want to take any chances.


----------



## golddie

This might sound a bit bizarre but I am going to spend over a $1,000 to buy a suit with an oxygen tank.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren 
Thanks for your reply
I think the system is working well but no matter what happens when nitric reacts with the other acids and other metals there is deadly fumes in the air.
In that room I don't have windows so it becomes more of a problem
I have worked with nitric and cyanide before and these things become a part of the air and when I was younger I didn't care much about those issues but now I do.
I know that Harold and GSP have worked for years but maybe their conditions were different.
If anyone has any additional help to make this profession safer I would like to hear from them.
Thanks again


----------



## HAuCl4

You may want to add an additional ventilator that simply sucks air and blows it outside, just to keep the atmosphere clean.

If that is not an option, and you aren't working with huge quantities, then the addition of H2O2 to the digestion is a valuable option for NOx free digestion with nitric acid.

If the above two are not to your liking, then dissolving a fine powder with HCl and sodium chlorate elliminates the NOx entirely and makes for much easier scrubbing.

I would avoid working in a closed room without ventilation. It can easily kill you or someone else, or at least severely damage your health. :shock:


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Barren
> Thanks for your reply
> I think the system is working well but no matter what happens when nitric reacts with the other acids and other metals there is deadly fumes in the air.
> In that room I don't have windows so it becomes more of a problem
> I have worked with nitric and cyanide before and these things become a part of the air and when I was younger I didn't care much about those issues but now I do.
> I know that Harold and GSP have worked for years but maybe their conditions were different.
> If anyone has any additional help to make this profession safer I would like to hear from them.
> Thanks again



If I remember you said you didn't have a fron on your hood. Put a piece of plexigalss over the front and see ifthat will help some. Or set you up a table outside and do certain things outside. But to spend a $1,000 dollars for a suit HMMMM.


----------



## golddie

Hi HAuCl4
Thanks for your help
I have the fume hood and the scrubber system and plus another blower working as an extra ventilation system.
I have separated the refining part from the whole shop so that the entire place does not get the acid in the air.
The acid smell stays in that room but I am not happy with the quality of the air in there, maybe if it was someone else they would not be bothered but I am bothered by that.



> AP= Acid Peroxide = 2 Parts Muriatic Acid, 1 Part 3% Hydrogen Peroxide. Dissolves
> base metals, slowly dissolves gold when heated. If gold is present drop with SMB, NO
> urea needed.



Do I have to boil this mixture until everything dissolves and its like Aqua Regia



> HCl-Cl= Clorox Method = 4 Parts Muriatic, 1 Part Clorox (added in small increments).
> Used to dissolve gold foils and powder. Drop gold with SMB, NO urea needed.



When you say HCl and sodium chlorate is this what you mean

I don't know if I did right or wrong but I made the back part of the shop the refining room and 
it has a window but with the system there I am not able to open it.
If I leave the door open to the reffing room than the acid smell will be less over there and more in the other parts of the shop
Thanks again


----------



## Emmjae

I have only scanned this post but from what little I have read I believe your problem is not enough fresh air intake. I also agree that you need to close off part or all of the front of your hood.

I built a crude fume hood 4 months ago 60"L x 30"D x 39"H with a front opening of 46" x 30". I am using 2 - 120 cfm bathroom exhaust fans made of all plastic except for the motor and each vented thru the roof with 4" ducting. I also keep 1 of these fans running 24 hrs. a day.

I put a piece of 1/4" plexiglass on the front with crude hinges and barrel bolts to keep it held down and used 1/4" x 3/4" closed cell foam weather stripping to seal the edges. I kept the bottom 10" of my hood open.
I am also in a small 9" x 9'-6" room but I do have a window.

Now for my point . If I close off my window and open my hood front and rely on drawing all my fresh air from my house I have the same problems you do. When I close my hood front the fume control gets better. However, if I just crack open my window, I can actually feel the air drawing in and will sometimes even howl if it's not open enough. I then get no noticeable fumes at all in my room until I do something outside the hood. But I still don't get any fumes in my house.

I can only assume my system must be keeping control of most of my fumes in my little room because I have had several pieces of raw steel beside my hood for a month or so and I have no signs of any oxidation or on any of my tools.

I am working on a small scrubber system that I can incorporate into my hood and will eventuly build a bigger and better hood system once I'm happy with my scrubber results. In the mean time I keep things small and use lots of watch glasses.


----------



## HAuCl4

Take a look at this thread for the nitric+peroxide. Forget I mentioned HCl+sodium chlorate, you may get into trouble with that. It's like HCl-clorox but much stronger.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=764

You must have leaks in your system. Can you open the window on the back and ventilate that way?. I also hate HCl stink. :x

What I mean is push air through the now closed window with an extractor, sucking it from the door that leads to the front of the shop through a grid in the door. That way there would be permanent circulation.


----------



## golddie

HAuCl4 & Emmjae
Thanks for your help 
I will have to try those things that you are recommending.
I cant bring air from the back because that is where the scrubbed fumes are going out and I will only be bringing in bad air.
The idea of bringing in air from the front of the shop makes sense.



Thanks goldenchild 
I dont know how many you have but they are very helpful, II think you have the one about making nitric acid and this one and if you have more I would like a link to it.

I have looked at this thread and watched the video made by goldenchild 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=764 
1) 35 percent H2o2 (Hydrogen peroxide)[makes up 49 percent of the total weight of the entire mixture]
2) Ethylene Glycol (found in anti freeze coolant)Prestone and main ingredient should be Ethylene Glycol[makes up 22 percent of the total weight of the entire mixture]
3) 70 percent nitric acid[makes up 29 percent of the total weight of the entire mixture]

He dissolves copper in this mixture as experiment
If I wanted to dissolve gold I guess I would place it in there instead of the copper.
Than the gold goes in there and how do I cement the gold in the liquid
Is this right or am i doing something wrong
Thanks again


----------



## golddie

I have a blower I am thinking of placing where I have marked new fan. I will make a hole and bring air from the front of the shop to the refining room without getting air from the outside because the front window is kind of far and the air in the shop is clean.
I will also have the Plexiglas soon and I will also have to check around the entrance and exit holes for leaks.
I used duct tape with plastic to make the connections to the pipes 
How is that for idea
http://img140.imageshack.us/f/61484804.jpg/


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I have a blower I am thinking of placing where I have marked new fan. I will make a hole and bring air from the front of the shop to the refining room without getting air from the outside because the front window is kind of far and the air in the shop is clean.
> I will also have the Plexiglas soon and I will also have to check around the entrance and exit holes for leaks.
> I used duct tape with plastic to make the connections to the pipes
> How is that for idea
> http://img140.imageshack.us/f/61484804.jpg/



You got to stop drawing these pictures and learn to take pictures and post them. They will tell so much more of a story.


----------



## qst42know

Before I spent a $1000 on a space suit I would get the fume hood working properly. Think how miserable that suit will be on a 95 degree day.

Your blower has a 9"diameter inlet, what size duct tube are you using?


----------



## golddie

http://img703.imageshack.us/f/81461484.jpg/
I tried to post this picture to test and as you can see the size is very small, its 100 pixels by 100 pixels and the story is the same
I looked here for answers
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=24
and I did this with photoshop and not that ifran program could that be the reason why I cant upload it


----------



## golddie

http://img199.imageshack.us/i/42059188.jpg/
qst42know 
Here i drew a sketch of the plan
Thanks


----------



## golddie

> You also have to determine when to change out the scrubbing liquid to lower the TDS and restore efficiency. It's a learning curve.


What is TDS and it is possible that I didnt have enough scrubbing liquid in the scrubber because I didnt think it was important


----------



## qst42know

golddie said:


> http://img199.imageshack.us/i/42059188.jpg/
> qst42know
> Here i drew a sketch of the plan
> Thanks



A 6" pipe is only about 44% of the area of a 9" pipe. I suspect this is why you don't get the draw you need.


----------



## HAuCl4

Goldie: Our fellow refiner kadriver has a fine thread in the chemical processes section, where he goes through the steps with pictures one by one. if you study that thread, then you can build the rest of your setup around that core process.

He also has another thread for silver. 

Good luck, and take it slowly, one step at a time, and start with a small amount first.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8322


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know
Thanks for your help I appreciate that
I bought it as a 6 inch pipe but I think it is a bit larger and it is something like 7 or 8 inches 
I will go to my shop and measure it to say exactly how much it is
I have a damper right above the fume hood would I have to change that as well and how about the pipe that is connected to the blowers exiting rectangular hole 

I have drawn a new sketch to show in detail about my system
http://img687.imageshack.us/i/26984497.jpg/
I think I have many flaws with the arrangement
The pipe that is attached to the bucket is making a sharp turn and it is affecting the force of the blower
This blower model can be moved around so that you can change the angle of the blower but if I remember right I thought it was not possible to move it the get better angle for performance


Hi HAuCl4
Thanks for that link I appreciate that


----------



## qst42know

A couple questions.

The 3" lines in your drawing are these the only connection to your hood?

I see your manifold feeds through the scrubber. Is there a reason the hood itself doesn't feed through the scrubber as well?



I think you would be happier with the performance of your hood if you went with 10" PVC duct like this. 

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23954&catid=723


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know
Thanks for your help 


> The 3" lines in your drawing are these the only connection to your hood?


Yes 
I made the system according to the sketch 4metals posted 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776
I never knew what a scrubber was until I started using this forum 



> 10" PVC duct


If you look in the picture I have written bucket I think a 10" pipe would be difficult to fit in there.
It will be a very difficult task to change those pipes and I said maybe I can just refine small amounts for now and maybe later on I will do changes to this system.
It seems like an easier task to add a small blower and let the air out the window that will be easier like Emmjae hood
Also I can bring more air from the front part of the room with a fan or a blower
Today all I did was close all the leaks and there was so many because I used duct tape and that was no good so what I did was I used aluminum tape to cover over those duct tape and it seemed like it was perfect.
Barren was the one who gave me the idea to use aluminum tape thanks to him.
The biggest leaks were at the places where the pipe that lead to the entrance and exit holes of the blower
If I have the chance I will test the system tomorrow. 
Thanks again


----------



## qst42know

The further your components are and the more turns you need to make the larger the duct would need to be. 10" may be excessive but 3" seems to restrictive for all but the smallest bench top hood. I suppose I assumed your system was very large based on your large scrubber.

Something is very wrong with the system if you are considering a space suit to work in.


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know 
I thought it would be a better idea to have 2 pipes that was 3" in the sides of the hood way I the system might work better than to have 6" in center.
Also I patched up lots of leaks yesterday so that means there was a major problem with leaks.
But one thing is for sure if the air is not clean I will not do any refining there
There are tools for testing the quality of air and I was wondering what kind of a meter would be suitable for this purpose
Thanks


----------



## PreciousMexpert

> I thought it would be a better idea to have 2 pipes that was 3" in the sides of the hood way I the system might work better than to have 6" in center.


I am wondering if this is a good idea or by having 2 pipes you reduce the suction power of those 2 holes


----------



## Barren Realms 007

PreciousMexpert said:


> I thought it would be a better idea to have 2 pipes that was 3" in the sides of the hood way I the system might work better than to have 6" in center.
> 
> 
> 
> I am wondering if this is a good idea or by having 2 pipes you reduce the suction power of those 2 holes
Click to expand...


You have a chance of reducing the airflow by a small percentage but if you have everything calculated for flaws you will be ok. Any time you desighn something that has to do with air flow you ever desighn for your airflow because you have things like 90's, filters and unseen things that can effect your flow rate. Never figure on the bare minimum.


----------



## golddie

I am removing all the duct tape and replacing them with aluminum and I boiled a small amount and already the air seemed very clean


----------



## golddie

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776

Next to the scrubber there is a smaller container and when I open that the smell is very strong.
There is lye in there and the usual brown colored liquid and I see that those carbon masks are not effective when it comes to nitric acid.
How about in this case can I use those carbon masks.
Thanks


----------



## rbramsey

golddie said:


> Hi qst42know
> I thought it would be a better idea to have 2 pipes that was 3" in the sides of the hood way I the system might work better than to have 6" in center.



FYI, two 3" pipes are not = one 6" pipe. It takes 4 - 3" pipes to equal the area of 1 - 6" pipe. Two 3" pipes would be equivalent to 4.5" pipe. This is not accounting for any efficiency loss or drag.

Area of a circle = pi * R * R
area of 6" pipe = 3.14159 * 3 * 3 = 28.2743 sq in.
area of 3" pipe = 3.14158 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 7.0686 sq in

# of 3" pipes = 6" pipe
7.0686x = 28.2743
x= 28.2743 / 7.0686 = 3.9999

I thought this would be important with you using this for a fume hood. 
Richard


----------



## golddie

Hi rbramsey
I appreciate your help
I did some testing with my fume hood and scrubbing system and I see that I have to do some changes to it.
I have a few ideas and the one that I like the most is to place a blower right behind the fume hood the way Emmjae has made his fume hood and direct it to the outside window 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776&start=320


> I am using 2 - 120 cfm bathroom exhaust fans



http://img695.imageshack.us/i/66305214.jpg/
If I do this than I will have 2 right angles in the line and I will be about 2 feet away from the exhaust hole
Or I can bring it from the side of the fume hood and there will be about 1 feet of distance from the ingoing hole to the outgoing hole 


Or I can change the 2 pipes that are 3 inches each and place a 6 inch pipe there but I will be 7 feet away from the blower and I will have 4 sharp curves in the line


----------



## golddie

> 120 cfm bathroom exhaust fans


I am buying 2 of these tomorrow and I have 3 questions.
1) Should I buy this since its working well for Emmjae and why change something that's working
or should I buy a more powerful blower
2) What size pipes should I use
3) Should I attach these fans to the fume hood or to the window
Thanks


----------



## PreciousMexpert

http://www.balco.co.uk/fume_enclosures.shtm

Maybe you can build something like this.
You need to have the blower sucking in the air and also another blower from the bottom suppling air
Can anyone explain this in more details like for a box like this what size of a blower is needed for sucking in air and what size to supply air


----------



## Barren Realms 007

PreciousMexpert said:


> http://www.balco.co.uk/fume_enclosures.shtm
> 
> Maybe you can build something like this.
> You need to have the blower sucking in the air and also another blower from the bottom suppling air
> Can anyone explain this in more details like for a box like this what size of a blower is needed for sucking in air and what size to supply air



It looks like this only has one blower. It possibly has a damper that only opens on negative pressure in the cabinet and then closes when the blower is off.


----------



## golddie

I have the option to use this
http://img243.imageshack.us/i/45799197.jpg/
http://img217.imageshack.us/i/69171836.jpg/


----------



## golddie

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=8177
If you look here this is something I can relate to and from reading this I see that maybe the motor for that blower is too week.



> A 4 x 8 opening needs 3200 cfm for good exhaust.


The motor for my blower is 650 cfm 
This is the blower for the fume hood and the scrubber.
The problem of changing that motor is very difficult so I have to plan well and do the right thing so that I can add the 2 bathroom fans there or something better
So any advice before I do it will be a big help 
I have been making too many mistakes for something that is critical and a matter of life and death

The size of my fume hood is about the same size as Emmjaes
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4776&start=320
Thanks


----------



## Emmjae

@ golddie

Here are the fans that I am using. They are a ceiling mount type that require an 8-1/2" x 9-1/16" opening each.

http://www.rewci.com/120-cfm-high-performance-fan.html

When I built this hood I had no clue as to what was required for fan/cfm size. I am by no means an expert or experienced at this type of construction. I keep my plexiglas front closed at all times while I'm using it. My remaining opening is 46" x 10". Based on what I have learned since I built this I am undersized by 220 cfm. What I'm not sure of is if that 100 cfm x sq.inch of opening requirement factors in for a scrubber draw too.

When I decided on using 2 - 120 cfm bathroom exhaust fans I looked at how many air changes per minute they would provide based on the total cubic foot of area inside my hood.

Inside dimensions are 46" L x 26"D x 36"H. = 52,416 cubic inch / 1728 = 30.33 Cubic Foot. Divide by 60 mins. = .5055 CFM needed for 1 air change per minute. I am using 2 - 120 cfm fans = 240 CFM / .5055 = 474.77 total air changes per minute. (If my math and figuring are correct) That seemed like enough to me and it does work well in my opinion.

Mounting my fans directly on my hood gave me no air restrictions at the entry point of the fans. I have the 4" exhaust ports pointed up and is vented straight up through my roof at a distance of about 12'. There should be some CFM loss due to that length along with the 1" filters I have mounted over each fan. I believe that with my 46" x 10" front opening I'm creating enough velocity/draft to draw the fumes up and out the exhaust fans pretty well. While experimenting with different opening sizes, I could increase the velocity/draft by decreasing the front opening size up to the point of the size of my fan openings. Keep this in mind while your constructing your hood opening.

Mike


----------



## golddie

Hi Mike

Before starting a project we do all kinds of research but when it comes to actually making the job, situations change and we are faced with unforeseen problems and that's because we are doing something that is not related to our profession.

You say this is not your field but I am really impressed with your method of calculating the measurements to find out the requirements of the cfm.


> 46" L x 26"D x 36"H. = 52,416 cubic inch / 1728 = 30.33 Cubic Foot. Divide by 60 mins. = .5055 CFM
> needed for 1 air change per minute. I am using 2 - 120 cfm fans = 240 CFM / .5055 = 474.77 total air changes per minute.


It would be nice if someone could make these calculations more understandable for the average person


The size of my fume hood is practically the same as yours and you say you are happy with the performance of these fans.
The only thing I don't understand is this 


> I built this I am undersized by 220 cfm.




Those filters look like the ones I bought from my hardware but they are not 1 inch
Thanks for your help.


----------



## Emmjae

Hi Golddie

From what I have read, they recommend 1 cfm per 1 square inch of opening. My hood has an opening with the plexiglas front down of 46" x 10" = 460 square inches. That equates to needing 460 cfm of fan. I have 240 cfm of fan meaning I am undersized by 220 cfm, based on what is recommended.

And yes, my filters are just a standard furnace filter 16" x 20" x 1" from Ace hardware. I had a case of filters left over from my old furnace that's been laying around. Figured for now it was better than using nothing 

Mike


----------



## golddie

Hi Mike
Thanks for telling me that because I was going to buy the fans today 
So than I will have to buy something more powerful 
like 2 of these

http://www.shopbot.ca/ps-fantech-pb230h-2-white-pb-230-cfm-bathroom-exhaust-fan-pb230h-2-21859564.html


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> Hi Mike
> Thanks for telling me that because I was going to buy the fans today
> So than I will have to buy something more powerful
> like 2 of these
> 
> http://www.shopbot.ca/ps-fantech-pb230h-2-white-pb-230-cfm-bathroom-exhaust-fan-pb230h-2-21859564.html



Those are pretty expensive units. Go to Home Depot and get you a cheap unit to test till you are sure it is the road you want to take.

No offense but with all the trouble you are having with this you should build you a bench outside with a box fan blowwing the fumes away from you till you get this hood working the way you want.


----------



## Emmjae

Hi Golddie

I personally wouldn't buy those fans for 2 reasons. First off you want to stay away from metal housings. The fans I use are all plastic except for the fan motor and bracket. Second is the price. Wow those are expensive....lol.
When I chose mine I figured if I could get a years worth of continuos use before the motor started giving me trouble it was cheap maintenance and all I would have to do is remove 2 screws and replace the motor assembly.

240 cfm will work for if all you want these fans to do is exhaust the hood area without the use of your scrubber system. The scrubber I would keep as a separate system on it's own. Again, that's my personal opinion.

If you are matching my design of the plexiglas front and wanting to keep an area open all the time for doing your work you can try what I am doing now. Again, my work opening is 46"L x 10"H. I cut a piece of cardboard that would block off part of my opening 22"L x 10"H that I just move side to side to allow me full access to my hood. The remaining opening is now 24"L x 10"H = 240 square inches, thus 240 cfm of fan is needed. It does work much better doing this. Eventually I'm going to cut 2 pieces of plexiglas the proper size and hinge them on each side of my opening and use a magnetic catch to keep them in the open position.

Mike


----------



## Refiner232121

Hi Mike 
That idea is fantastic
This way I can save some money and also have my hood working properly.
I will also place something in the area where I am not planning on using I think it will be easy with duct tape or aluminum tape.
Thanks very much


----------



## golddie

I was just at my local hardware to buy a 120cfm bathroom fan and I found the prices steep 
Here in Canada things are more expensive than the USA.
for a 110 cfm I would have to pay $172.00

I found something on special and it was 
80 cfm for $ 42.99
If I buy 3 of them that will be 240 cfm and that's good for what I need
The frame is galvanized steel and the fan looks like squirrel cage
They look something like these
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-FV-08VQ3-WhisperCeiling-Ceiling-Mounted/dp/B001DESY7S
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?D=902883&Ntt=902883&catalogId=10051&langId=-15&storeId=10051&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumber
The hole where the air goes in is about 7 feet by 7 feet
the hole where the air exits is about 2 and a half inches
The fan was plastic but I did see lots of metals 
This is how the layout would look
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure out that this will work but I want to ask your opinion
http://img808.imageshack.us/f/37090976.jpg/

Thanks


----------



## golddie

My local hardware had fans have a housing that is galvanized steel and not powerful enough and too expensive.

http://www.rewci.com/120-cfm-high-performance-fan.html
I am going to e-mail these people and see how fast they can deliver
I will buy 2 and make it like Mikes because they are better than the ones sold at my local hardware and if I bought a powerful motor and attach it the the fume hood that the hole hood is going to shake


----------



## Emmjae

Hi Goldie,

Let me know if these folks won't ship to Canada. When I bought mine they drop shipped them from the manufacturer. If they won't ship to you, you can have them ship to me and I'll UPS them to you. Send me a PM if this is the case and we can swap addresses.

Mike


----------



## golddie

Hi Mike 
I ordered 2 of them and they are going to ship to Canada
Thanks very much for your help


----------



## golddie

I mounted the Plexiglas on yesterday but it is 1 eight of an inch Plexiglas.
I had already bought this Plexiglas because I was going to make it with tracks and that was the thickness of the tracks, now that I am going to make it like Mikes fume they are thinner that his.
I don't know if this will be a problem but I will test it and if I see that it should be changed than I will buy a quarter of an inch Plexiglas


----------



## Drewbie

When thinking about managing fumes, you have to think "pressure differentials".

If you have your fumehood in an enclosed room, you fume extraction isn't going to work very well, because you fan is working it's guts out lowering the pressure in the room and once it gets to a certain pressure differential, it's going to run out of puff ad there will be no futher air extraction.

You HAVE to have a source of fresh air somewhere else in the room or things will not go as planned.

If you pressurise the room from another location with a big-arse fan, and the fume hood air exit is the only way the air can get out of the room, then you won't even NEED a fan inside the fume hood 

If you have a fume hood that's not quite enough capacity, it may be a much easier and cheaper solution to pressurise the room slightly, rather than having to re-build the fan hood with bigger fans and pipes.


----------



## golddie

Hi Drewbie
I am going to do some testing tomorrow with the the door open and try different ways.
I have placed the Plexiglas in the front of the fume hood and I think that should make a big difference 
I already ordered those 2 fans and I would like to install them there but I am not sure 
I guess I will see with time what I will do exactly

Hi Mike
I tried to do my siphoning inside the fume hood and it was difficult 
It is easier for me to do this outside but I am trying to do it inside the fume hood
Where do you siphon
I placed a portable light there but I would like to have something like what you have, those florescence light look like what I might put in there.
Can you tell me more about that
Thanks


----------



## Emmjae

Hi golddie

I do my siphoning outside but directly in front of my hood. I keep my main beaker at the hood opening and my waste container on the floor. You will get some smell obviously but it's at a minimum if you keep it in the path of the fresh air drawn into the fume hood. Buckets are done on the floor in front of the fume hood also.
My light is just a basic 4' twin tube 32-watt fluorescent shop light. I mounted it as close to my hood opening as possible to keep it out of the direct fumes. My final light setup will be a Vapor Proof fluorescent although so far I show no signs of corrosion on my original setup.

Mike


----------



## Barren Realms 007

You can cut a hole in the top of your hood and mount a piece of heavey duty plexiglass and put the light on top of the hood. The plexiglass can be a barrier between the inside of your hood and your light.


----------



## Emmjae

Barren Realms 007 said:


> You can cut a hole in the top of your hood and mount a piece of heavey duty plexiglass and put the light on top of the hood. The plexiglass can be a barrier between the inside of your hood and your light.



I looked at doing that originally but found that the additional cost of the Plexiglas, the additional framing needed to cut a 48" x 12" opening and having to seal up another hole, constructing some kind of a mounting base for the light. It ended up being cheaper and less time consuming to purchase a Vapor/Moisture Proof light.

Mike


----------



## Barren Realms 007

Emmjae said:


> Barren Realms 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can cut a hole in the top of your hood and mount a piece of heavey duty plexiglass and put the light on top of the hood. The plexiglass can be a barrier between the inside of your hood and your light.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I looked at doing that originally but found that the additional cost of the Plexiglas, the additional framing needed to cut a 48" x 12" opening and having to seal up another hole, constructing some kind of a mounting base for the light. It ended up being cheaper and less time consuming to purchase a Vapor/Moisture Proof light.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Your making it too difficult, all that is needed is to cut the hold, cut the plexiglass, screw the plexiglass down on top of the hood seal it with some silicone and set the light on top of it.


----------



## 4metals

An easy way to add a light is cut a round hole in the top of the hood and silicone in one of these type pie dishes http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/pro...ogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=shopping and use an aluminum reflector above it.
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/1416/product.web


----------



## Refiner232121

4metals way is good but a bit of work
If you do it like Mikes the only problem is that the screws will rust 
For that problem you can always paint the screws with oil paint


----------



## HAuCl4

Put a mirror/mirrors inside and hit it with a beam of light from the outside. :shock:


----------



## golddie

Hi HAuCl4 
That is a very creative idea.


----------



## golddie

I boiled some nitric and water today and the fume hood was perfect
It wasn't a big batch but still it was a big improvement from last time
The difference this time was that I had the door open and also I had a Plexiglas in the front of the fume hood like mikes
The problem is not over because I don't like the smell of the lye and I am saying maybe I can use the scrubber without lye and use only water.
The first day I mixed the lye in the scrubber the smell wasn't this much 
It seems like the smell is very strong
As you all know I have the blower from my oven that I am able to use in the room and still it does not help


----------



## qst42know

Exhaust it outdoors. I don't think I would want to breath the exhaust from any scrubber either home or commercially made. I don't believe that is the purpose at all. You are reducing environmental pollutants but not to the point of being good to breath in a confined space.


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know
I have 2 blowers 
1 is for the fume hood and scrubber 
and the other for the small room where refining is done.
I have both blowers working all the time and all the containers are closed
The container that is attached to the scrubber is something I bought from wall mart and it was for laundry but the top can be closed 

I even put some duct tape around it 
I don't know what else to do
They make soap with lye but I don't like the smell
It feels like It is hurting my throat 
I hope its not going to have bad effects on my body


----------



## golddie

I did a quick google search about lye and I think it is not bad as people think it is
http://www.ehow.com/how_4742114_use-safely-understand-its-dangers.html
I remember working in a jewelry shop a while ago and they were boiling lye in a closed room with no ventilation and nothing bad happened there
I am not saying that what they did was a good idea but the dangerous are exaggerated


----------



## Barren Realms 007

golddie said:


> I did a quick google search about lye and I think it is not bad as people think it is
> http://www.ehow.com/how_4742114_use-safely-understand-its-dangers.html
> I remember working in a jewelry shop a while ago and they were boiling lye in a closed room with no ventilation and nothing bad happened there
> I am not saying that what they did was a good idea but the dangerous are exaggerated



I would rather work with acids than with lye. When it is in powder form you can't see where the powder is blowing. Lye is what they use to eat the skin away from animlal hides when they treat them.


----------



## golddie

Hi Barren

Here in Canada they have removed them from grocery shelves.
I think I get a different feeling in my throat when I stay in that room for long.

I know a bit about lye so I am not afraid of it but can it be that it can have long term health effects on me.
They say it has been used for centuries for making soap


----------



## Barren Realms 007

I am not sure if it has any long term effects. I have a friend that makes soap but I have never discussed with him the effects it has on you.


----------



## golddie

The smell is so strong that I have my blower working all day and the smell is still in the room
The good thing is its only in that room and it does not go to the other places


----------



## Barren Realms 007

The smell will permiate into the wood of the structure and stay there.


----------



## golddie

The building is all concrete


----------



## qst42know

You have a hood, it doesn't work right. You have a scrubber vented indoors, you have no idea if it is working right. You have negative health affects every time when using your system.

I'll go out on a limb here and say you shouldn't be doing any more refining until you get this system fixed.


----------



## Barren Realms 007

qst42know said:


> You have a hood, it doesn't work right. You have a scrubber vented indoors, you have no idea if it is working right. You have negative health affects every time when using your system.
> 
> I'll go out on a limb here and say you shouldn't be doing any more refining until you get this system fixed.



HMMMM :!: :idea: . I'v herd that some where before. :twisted: :roll:


----------



## golddie

Hi qst42know
Since I opened the door to that room and I closed the front of the fume hood with Plexiglas I don't smell any acid and I think my system is working well.
I was going to take a picture of it today but I couldn't get the camera maybe tomorrow I will do that.
Maybe if it was someone else they wouldn't complain

If you look at this picture 
The hole where I have written 4 inches is about 5 feet away from where I have written bucket 
The distance is not very long only a few feet away.
I think no matter what I do there is going to be that lye smell
http://img687.imageshack.us/i/26984497.jpg/


----------



## qst42know

You shouldn't smell anything be it lye or half scrubbed acid if your system was working properly.

Don't kill yourself for a bit of metal. Do yourself a favor if you can't fix this hire someone that can.


----------



## golddie

Hi Mike
How are you
I wanted to know if you have separate pipes for each fan or did you join them together and have it exit in one pipe
Thanks


----------



## Emmjae

Hi Golddie,

I have separate pipes exhausting through my roof.

Sorry for the delay on a response. For some reason Internet Explorer would not let me log in to the forum since Friday morning. I tried on 3 different computers. Thought maybe I got banned for some reason...lol

Mike


----------



## Frankk12

I am not sure but if the pipes were to join into one wouldn't that be the same thing like it is drawn in A

http://img36.imageshack.us/i/32729235.jpg/


----------



## eeTHr

golddie---



golddie said:


> Hi HAuCl4
> 
> Thanks for your help
> 
> I have the fume hood and the scrubber system and plus another blower working as an extra ventilation system.
> 
> ....
> 
> I have separated the refining part from the whole shop so that the entire place does not get the acid in the air.
> 
> The acid smell stays in that room but I am not happy with the quality of the air in there, maybe if it was someone else they would not be bothered but I am bothered by that. I don't know if I did right or wrong but I made the back part of the shop the refining room and
> it has a window but with the system there I am not able to open it.
> 
> If I leave the door open to the reffing room than the acid smell will be less over there and more in the other parts of the shop
> 
> Thanks again






golddie said:


> Hi qst42know
> 
> I have 2 blowers
> 1 is for the fume hood and scrubber and the other for the small room where refining is done.
> 
> I have both blowers working all the time




The room blower should be flowing air *from* the outside, *into* the room. If you have it sucking air out of the room, it will be fighting your fume hood blower, and reduce it's overall suction effeciency.

Having the room blower forcing air pressure into the room will add to the pressure differential, and thus *add* to your fume hood's suction effectiveness, instead of reducing it.

Just a thought....



P.S. This only works if you vent your hood and scrubber to the outdoors. If you can't go through the wall, replace a window glass with plywood, and mount your duct through a hole in that. If you add ducting for both in and out, on the same window, use 90 degree fittings, and extend the exhause upward, with a rain roof on it, and extend the intake downward, and put some screen on it or even a filter to keep dust out of your room and system.


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## evL

Holly Cow I made it! 

Hello Gentlemen; I had some questions, started reading this thread, and two hours later here I am. Ya, after reading, checking external links, and researching 
things mentioned, it took that long. But my questions were answered for the most part and new ideas popped into my head as well. So I want to say thanks! 

The only problem that I have with this Forum is that it consumes me and I have a hard time pulling myself away. There is just so much great information. 
I am redefining a Fume/Scrubber at the moment, along with too many other projects... i.e. Ball Mill, Furnace, and the like. 

Hats off to this thread, it's a great read. 

[ evL ]


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## goldenchild

evL said:


> Holly Cow I made it!
> 
> Hello Gentlemen; I had some questions, started reading this thread, and two hours later here I am. Ya, after reading, checking external links, and researching
> things mentioned, it took that long. But my questions were answered for the most part and new ideas popped into my head as well. So I want to say thanks!
> 
> The only problem that I have with this Forum is that it consumes me and I have a hard time pulling myself away. There is just so much great information.
> I am redefining a Fume/Scrubber at the moment, along with too many other projects... i.e. Ball Mill, Furnace, and the like.
> 
> Hats off to this thread, it's a great read.
> 
> [ evL ]



evL,

I see that you're reading through many threads in their entirety and asking good questions. You're actually doing research. I would just like to say thank you. Your efforts should be commended. If more new members conducted themselves the way you are doing I think this forum would be an even better place. Again thank you.


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## jeneje

golddie said:


> Hi Barren
> 
> Here in Canada they have removed them from grocery shelves.
> I think I get a different feeling in my throat when I stay in that room for long.
> 
> I know a bit about lye so I am not afraid of it but can it be that it can have long term health effects on me.
> They say it has been used for centuries for making soap



Hello golddie, i found this about lye you might be interested in what it says. " *What is it to be poisoned with lye? TERRIBLE. It can mean anything from burnt skin, corroded lungs to death. Remember, for all its uses, lye is a poison that should not be inhaled, touched or ingested into the body. You may meet with terrible consequences if you happen to be victims of lye poisoning. This is why it is advised that you have to be careful and wear protective gear while handling lye. This article will explain the symptoms and treatments that follow a lye poisoning and what emergency care needs to be taken immediately after such a terrible accident. 

How can you be poisoned with lye? You can be poisoned with lye in three ways – touch/physical contact, inhalation and ingestion. All three are dangerous and your body can be debilitated if you suffer a strong exposure to the chemical. Lye, as you know is caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. It is a strong alkaline that reacts strongly with acids. It can be found in many industrial solvents, cleaners (like drain cleaners), brick cleaners, cements, aquarium products, metal polishes, oven cleaners and a lot of others. If you are a soapmaking freak, you would be handling lye in pellets or flakes form. Lye water (lye mixed with water) is also caustic." There is more to read at this link.*http://sodium-hydroxide.com/poisoned-with-lye-symptoms-treatments-and-emergency-what-to-dos/ 
Its pays to be careful with this chemical you can read more by following the link above.
Ken


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## saadat68

Hi
Will this scrubber work ? I want to add blower and injector over the hood :shock:


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## 4metals

I would say no it would not work. The 300 CFM blower will not generate enough suction from a 4' wye fitting to act as a strong venturi. While it might provide minimal exhaust, it will not cause enough power to overcome the resistance in the system made by the depth of the solution in the scrubber liquid. 

Scrubbers are more efficient when the liquid flows over the packing rather than air bubbling through a tank of caustic.


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## anachronism

Also from a thermodynamic perspective you're not going to blow 300 CFM through a 20l bath. The maths just doesn't work. You will get an element (at least) of back pressure which will affect your over sized venturi, not to mention all kinds of other things related to the bath.


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## saadat68

4metals said:


> I would say no it would not work. The 300 CFM blower will not generate enough suction from a 4' wye fitting to act as a strong venturi. While it might provide minimal exhaust, it will not cause enough power to overcome the resistance in the system made by the depth of the solution in the scrubber liquid.
> 
> Scrubbers are more efficient when the liquid flows over the packing rather than air bubbling through a tank of caustic.





anachronism said:


> Also from a thermodynamic perspective you're not going to blow 300 CFM through a 20l bath. The maths just doesn't work. You will get an element (at least) of back pressure which will affect your over sized venturi, not to mention all kinds of other things related to the bath.



Thanks and sorry for double post in another topic
My problem is not blower volume now. Even I can not understand how this scrubber work!  I read several topics in 2 days but I couldn't 
If we add blower over the caustic tank, Does it suck NOx fume from the hood?! :shock:


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## 4metals

When it comes to fume scrubbing for refining, it is impractical to scrub all of the air necessary to produce a workable fume hood, the size of the scrubber necessary will be huge. Go back to the beginning of this thread and you will see a small scrubber with a manifold in the hood to draw the fumes from a sealed reaction through the scrubber and the majority of the air exhausted goes out unscrubbed. The theory is any reaction generating fume is passed through the lower CFM scrubber while the air velocity in the hood is maintained to make working conditions better for the operator. 

I have also posted a design for a venturi scrubber which works in combination with a separately exhausted hood also through a manifold. 
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9115&p=86566&hilit=venturi#p86566

There are multiple good scrubbing systems on the forum and this topic seems to be kin to beating a dead horse.


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## ashir

4metals said:


> When it comes to fume scrubbing for refining, it is impractical to scrub all of the air necessary to produce a workable fume hood, the size of the scrubber necessary will be huge. Go back to the beginning of this thread and you will see a small scrubber with a manifold in the hood to draw the fumes from a sealed reaction through the scrubber and the majority of the air exhausted goes out unscrubbed. The theory is any reaction generating fume is passed through the lower CFM scrubber while the air velocity in the hood is maintained to make working conditions better for the operator.
> 
> I have also posted a design for a venturi scrubber which works in combination with a separately exhausted hood also through a manifold.
> http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9115&p=86566&hilit=venturi#p86566
> 
> There are multiple good scrubbing systems on the forum and this topic seems to be kin to beating a dead horse.



Given link is i think gone 4METAL. i am looking to make a fume hood as philddreamer show in a post (you know it was on your idea) i am very confusing abou instalation of blower. 
i am looking for a 46"long 30" high and 30 " deep hood. 
A sealed reaction as you mention and a vaccume pump at end of system is good to handle and maintain. Fumes comming out of pump will remain inside the hood. Fumes from hood will need another setup to blow the fumes? 
I need your guide about
Which blower for 46*30 hood
If i want to use philddreamer's scrubers then i will need a vaccume pump or a blower will do work?


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## philddreamer

https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=18481&start=30#p309115


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