# Dealing with Waste



## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

I know in the U.K. copper doesn’t need to be treated as toxic waste so as long as you have it in solid form, ie oxides, you can just bag it up and dispose? I would imagine it’s the same in the US.

Nitric however, is not the same. Once I’ve got my silver chloride out I just add bicarbonate till I get a neutral Ph, water, filter through a 1l Büchner flask and collect all oxides and then just use the water for my garden. Sometimes I even add some copperas if I’m tending my roses! 

Think you’re way over complicating waste disposal!


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

Sounds like very bad advice.

Copper salts are toxic and should be disposed of properly.
As is most of the base metal salts we deal with loaded with heavily toxic metals.

If you are talking about putting your copper elemental metal in the trash, I fail to understand why anyone would want to trash copper metal.

Study the safety section and do your research recheck your local laws I am sure you are terribly mistaken about what and how you are treating your waste.

Having or using toxic copper salts is one thing, but it is a totally different issue when disposing of them.

Nitric, however, is not the same. Once I’ve got my silver chloride out I just add bicarbonate till I get a neutral Ph, water, filter through a 1l Büchner flask and collect all oxides and then just use the water for my garden. Sometimes I even add some copperas if I’m tending my roses!

What bad advice reminds me not to drink from the water around your home, your plants may survive but that doe not mean you are not poisoning everything around you.

So you take silver with other toxic metals and make them into soluble salts in a nitrate solution, and then add chlorides to attempt to recover silver as a chloride, then change the pH to remove a small portion of the remaining toxic and very soluble nitrate and chloride salt and then just simply dump these toxic metals into your garden, with the toxic water-soluble salts ending up in the groundwater, creeks rivers around your home where people get their drinking water from...

Just because a metal-salt-water solution does not have color, and even if it is neutral it does not mean it is safe, as it can still hold a slew of toxic metals that may not color the salt solution...

Please be sure to study and educate yourself about the dangers of your waste products, and gain an understanding of how to deal with them safely before you start attempting to give others dangerous advice on how to dump the toxic metals solutions you produce where they grow their food or where it will enter their children's or their pregnant wife's water supply...

I am sure your neighbors would not be glad to hear how you are dealing with these toxic solutions and pouring them out around your home and theirs...

I do not know about where you live homes here are condemned when found to be contaminated by chemicals (normally from the production of illegal drugs) that may well use the same chemicals we use in recovery or refining or have around our home for other purposes.

No, we are not making waste disposal complicated, actually, it is very simple to do properly.

Some people talk because they wish to say something, talk is cheap, your health and the health of others is not so cheap.


I personally reuse my byproducts as much as possible thus eliminating it as being a waste product I do not need to deal with much of it as a waste byproduct, and when I get enough waste that I need to deal with it I will spend the time and energy needed to deal with it properly and safely.

None of my waste would go into my garden or my soil, My garden is healthy and my soil is healthy, my well water is not going to get contaminated.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Hi butcher,

I have consulted with a local metal waste company and I understand very clearly what is toxic that I am dealing with.

I am of the understanding that oxide, bagged up correctly is not a toxic waste product and can be disposed of as such.

The same company have also advised me how safe it actually is to neutralise water and use it in plant pots. I refine for this company on a small scale.

I’m a bit confused as to most of your comments, not that I am dismissing. 

However copper nitrate reduced to water and oxide salts then separated, is not a toxic process or does not create toxic products. You have water and copper oxide. Reinforced in Hokes information quite a few times I believe? She may not say to use it in your plant pots! However I wouldn’t say mine look “poisoned” or In a toxic environment!?

Or am I missing something completely? I’ve not seen one patch of grass or tree appear stressed at any stage. Nor has anyone be harmed. I’m very confused.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

I fully understand pouring off soluble copper but that’s not really what I’m saying.

And I certainly haven’t advised anyone to pour off toxic waste. How do you describe neutralised water as “toxic”? It simply isn’t and I did not at any point say to someone “pour off toxic waste in soils, yours and your neighbours”. 

If you do what I said properly having educated yourself like you say, there would be no issue whatsoever.

Copper flashings used to weather building joints regularly oxidise via atmospheric conditions which can become soluble and cause way more environment damage than what I’m saying.

And furthermore “some people speak for the sake of it”. How rude. You look at the topics I comment on and other than praising people products and posting my own, I mainly comment on safety and waste. To be compared ethically to a criminal drug dealer is a bit low. I would argue that someone manufacturing illegal drugs probably hasn’t got much ethical compass and if they’re prepared to destroy human lives, it’s almost a given they wouldn’t care about the environment so you’re comparing apples with bricks to be frank. 

I’m also a qualified structural engineer that specialises in sustainable and green construction. 

I think someone that’s able to successfully teach themselves A process such as refining with zero chemistry background is probably sensible enough to gauge whether they are destroying their environment.... particularly after 18 months of doing what we’re talking about.

Please don’t accuse me of advising people to pour off toxic waste into their gardens, not at all what I said.

It seems to me that unless you’re approved by certain members, giving advice is frowned upon. I was raised in a fairly hostile environment so it just motivates me even more. First post I’ve ever received I’ve genuinely been upset about.


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

Copper salts are poisons.

Copper and many other metal salts, although toxic are often used in agriculture, (often because they are toxic to insects mold fungus or used for other purposes.

Some metal salts can help plants grow like crazy (they may not poison your roses and your rose may love it, but those same metal salts will destroy our environments creeks, streams and rivers, and poison or contaminate the wells we drink from.

If you need copper salts for your grapes I suggest you buy the product and understand the dangers of its use and its proper disposal. if you need fertilizer use it properly and if you need to dispose of it do so properly.

Toxic waster you are generating in recovery or refining is a toxic poison, bringing it to pH 7 it may have cleared some metals from the salt solution but it still is extremely toxic at this point with highly toxic metals.

So you are roasting all of your toxic metal salts to a red hot glow in an oxidizing environment and holding that temperature while stirring them for enough time for the conversion of the salts or metal powders to be able to form oxides? If not why do you believe them to be oxides?

For that matter many different metal salts or powders can be poison, a water solution with toxic metals at a pH of 7 neutral (around the same pH and similar in appearance as your drinking water can hold poisonous toxic metals.

Do not put your foot in your mouth, do not take someone else's advice, no matter where they work or where they were educated they may be wrong or you may not understand them. or you and they may be discussing different circumstances... Educate yourself, learn to properly deal with your waste, or any of these chemicals and the byproducts of the reactions they produce.

No one was comparing anyone to an un-ethically to a criminal drug dealer, so why are you saying it is a bit low to do so. 
But the drug lab with many of the same chemicals and acids that we also use which create toxic substances so bad they have to condemn and clean up the property and no one can live there or buy the property should give you a clue you do not want to be dumping anything from your recovery or refining metals in acids or alkalies into your garden, your soil, your septic or city sewer..., 

As far as your viewpoint of :
"Seems to me that unless you’re approved by certain members, giving advice is frowned upon."

Giving bad advice is definitely frowned upon that is a fact. Especially if that bad advice is wrong or will put people in harm's way then yes we begin to frown. 

Nobody here on the forum has to ask for anyone's approval, why would you think you need someone else's aproval?



I was raised in a fairly hostile environment so it just motivates me even more. First post I’ve ever received I’ve genuinely been upset about.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

I have, I paid an awful lot of money for consulting advice on this exact matter by a professional waste company. They would inherit full liability of any wrong advice they provide. Particularly as waste is disposed of In their very regulated facilities in this exact way. 

More than happy to share who they are.

Adding a base like hydroxide or bicarbonate, to my understanding produces copper hydroxides which again, are not considered toxic in solid form. 

Maybe I’m wrong.

So the tons and tons of household waste that oxidises through atmospheric reactions inevitably, what is that doing to our planet? 

Again, I don’t believe I am poisoning the environment, that is an extremist view in context. 

And to be frank, again what has occurred here is I’ve seen someone talking about “boiling their nitric waste”. In my opinion boiling nitric has no place in refining at any stage whatsoever. You never need to boil nitric, in recovery, refining or waste. That is way more adverse to the environment unless you have a professional scrubbing system.

My way is effective and if you want to be 100% sure, you can evaporate down the neutralised solution rather than an acidic nitric that will produce NOX fumes. Now they really are serious.

You then collect any minor salts that redissolved following evaporation and you’ve dealt with no toxic fumes.

I have advised on a way of avoiding this quite effectively and have been accused of misinformation, again. I’m getting sick of it. And other people have even commented and I’ve defended it. 

Anyway, carry on boiling down your large pots of nitric waste and don’t listen to me as I consistently spread misinformation across the forum apparently.


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

You wasted your money if the professional told you to bring your toxic salts to pH7 and dump them in your garden. I truly doubt He will willingly claim liability and will take the ramifications involved for what you are doing with his advice and with your toxic waste in your garden.

metal hydroxides and carbonates can be toxic.
Metals in many of the chemical forms we work with are toxic in acids, salts, hydroxides, oxides...
Just because we change the pH does not make them safe.

Study to gain the understanding for yourself, stop dumping your solutions and toxic salts in your garden, stop dumping your contaminated copper powders in the trash, Gain an understanding of the chemistry involved before giving advice to others of how to deal with toxic waste.

Unless your professional speaks for himself here, I say you did not understand what he is saying, or he did not understand you...


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

No I think it needs to be taken into context.

Dumping toxic solutions is one thing, using neutralised water to water plants is another. I did not say my consultant advised me to do that. He didn’t.

If I have the choice over boiling down nitric or water with hydroxides, I know what I’m choosing. 

But again, I’m full of misinfo so no need to listen to anything I say! 

I think it’s quite clear what Dylan was asking.

But yes as you can see from my plants, my wonderful garden, my soil testing and all the healthy wonderful trees around me and greenage that as you say butcher, I’m clearly “pouring off toxic solutions” into the ground.

I give up. I have better things to spend my energy on.


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## kurtak (Jun 17, 2020)

Jmk88 said:


> Adding a base like hydroxide or bicarbonate, to my understanding produces copper hydroxides which again, are not considered toxic in solid form.
> 
> Maybe I’m wrong.



Sorry Jmk88 but yes you are wrong (no "maybe" about it)

Copper is most definitely on the list of 7 toxic metals

In drinking water it is considered toxic at levels of more the 1.3 PPM (1.3 mg per liter)

Copper hydroxide CAN NOT simply be put in the trash & sent to the land fill - that is because as a hydroxide it is FAR more soluble then actual copper metal (due to acids in the soil) - if the EPA catches you they "will" bust you

Here is a link to what wiki says about copper poisoning

:arrow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

For what it is worth - a member of this forum "died" - "recently" due to (at least in part) copper poisoning - due to his improper handling of copper waste from refining - he was only in his mid 50s when he died

The doctors were trying to de-toxify the high levels of copper in him but the damage of the high copper levels was already done & to late for the attempts to de-toxify to work

Kurt


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## kurtak (Jun 17, 2020)

Copper dissolved in acidic solutions should be cemented with iron FIRST

The iron solution can then be treated with hydroxide to drop the iron 

Kurt


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Hi Kurt,

Yes I completely agree with you and I’m really not saying that I pour away copper hydroxide in bulk volumes! That’s honestly not all what I meant! 

And I do not really throw most of my copper in the trash either. Maybe the odd stained filter paper but that’s about it.

Once I’ve precipitated it’s I dissolve it in hcl. I cement it with iron as you say. Then melt my copper down. As you’ve probably noted from my past posts. 

I don’t believe the water I use for my plants has any copper contaminants at all. I know it doesn’t as I’ve boiled so many test pots of the water down! 

Again, I think the point I’m trying to make, for whatever reason, is being overlooked. 

If you are boiling down nitrate for the purpose of waste disposal, treating with a base, filtering, and then going from there is a much safer and environmentally friendly way of dealing with waste. Is that not agreed?


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

What exactly will I get “busted” for? Why am I being made out to be a big villain? 

I don’t recall once saying “throw every bit of copper hydroxide into your general trash bin, that’s what I do”. You may indeed bag this up and if you dispose of it correctly, which I assumed Dylan was doing if he’s doing it with nitrate also, then what are you doing that’s wrong? To be clear, I DO NOT DISPOSE OF HYDROXIDES IN MY GARDEN OR MY GENERAL WASTE. That’s not once what I’ve said.

So first it was my water contaminating my thriving garden, now it’s cos I dump en masse toxic copper solutions? I think this place really does have a nasty spiteful atmosphere to be frank.

I think I’ve reached a point where I have taken all I need to from the forum. Let’s be real the issue here is someone without a green or yellow name tag has issued advice, which, if you look at almost every post where that happens, the discussions descend into hypothetical extreme circumstances from the same old suspects which in all honesty, completely contradicts their statements to be here to help newbies.

People literally proceed on things people have never said. Assuming the absolute worst and stinking of doing nothing but trying to discredit people having an opinion.

Funny how we’re nearly a dozen messages past my point of the benefits of hydroxides in water or copper in nitrate being boiled and no one has once commented on that.

Is that because it would be admitting I’m correct?


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## jarlowski1 (Jun 17, 2020)

Jmk88 said:


> What exactly will I get “busted” for? Why am I being made out to be a big villain?
> 
> I don’t recall once saying “throw every bit of copper hydroxide into your general trash bin, that’s what I do”. You may indeed bag this up and if you dispose of it correctly, which I assumed Dylan was doing if he’s doing it with nitrate also, then what are you doing that’s wrong? To be clear, I DO NOT DISPOSE OF HYDROXIDES IN MY GARDEN OR MY GENERAL WASTE. That’s not once what I’ve said.
> 
> ...


 

You should be able to have your waste solution tested to see what contaminates it contains. You may find a local university that will run a sample and be able to analytically tell you what you have and they most likely won't charge you. I am sure you will find that you don't want to be watering your garden with this and suggesting it to someone is simply not the safest or smartest thing to do.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Jeezeus. And here comes the cavalry.

I paid a bloody waste consultant for that!!! We have boiled down over a dozen times to satisfy my concerns.

Reinforced with resting strips.

No one suggested to water their garden with it. But I know for sure the water I have is not contaminated at all. Fact. But you seem to just be like stick records on repeat.

You lot need to stop going for peoples necks all the time. Again no comment on the boiling down of nitric compared to hydroxides in water.

Actually just laughable.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

The only thing toxic I do.... is engage in discussions with such people here.

Toxic waste isn’t the only dangerous thing, toxic people are just as bad. Both kill you slowly.


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

Why get upset when someone disagrees with you or tells you do not understand?
Is it not your point of being here, to learn?
How will you ever learn when you are always arguing with those who are trying to help you learn.

If you believe you know more and disregard good instructions or advice you are restricting your ability to learn better.

why argue with those who have been studying this for many years, something you have only begun to learn yourself, or something you have not learned or completely understand yet?

Maybe they see something you do not, instead of blindly arguing, would it not be better to spend your time researching to see if they understand or can see something you cannot or do not see?







Just because you change the pH of your acid solutions does not mean you have removed all of the toxic metal salts, toxic metal salts can remain in a solution at almost any pH range.

Note at PH 7 many toxic metal ions still remain in the solution as even after you bring your solution to pH 7, metal ions such as silver, iron cadmium, chromium, zinc, nickel, lead, as well as any nitrate, chlorides sulfates or other salts of the acids used.

Although we can use pH adjustments in the process of treating our waste treatment to lower its toxicity to a somewhat less toxic level safer for the environment so that we can safely dispose of them. we remove these metals at different ranges of pH to get the most of these metals out of solution that we can.

This is why we bring our pH up above neutral 7, to where more of these toxic metal ions can be removed from the solution.

Say you have a mixed waste acid solution,.

We can cement precious metal values from the solution by using copper metal letting it settle decant the solution after removing values we can cement out the bulk of the copper ions from solution using iron metal (which will also help to reduce other metal ions to elemental form.

At this point, we still have many different toxic metal ions in solution.
Adjusting the pH to neutral pH7 will precipitate the iron ions as insoluble hydroxide along with some other metal ions,

The saltwater solution may look clear at this point because most of the metals ions that color the solution have been removed.

Do not fool yourself by the looks of this colorless water-like looking solution it will still hold many colorless toxic metal ions in solution.

bringing the pH to around pH10 will then precipitate more of the dangerous metal ions and we can remove these hydroxides.
After decanting we can then lower the pH back to pH7 by adding acid, here again, some more of the toxic metal salts will precipitate and can be removed.

Here we are left with a solution that is still not "Safe", but most of the major toxic metals have been removed from this saltwater solution of chlorides, nitrates, sulfates, or whatever other anions from the acids or chemicals used were, it is at least safe enough to dispose of.

The metal precipitates are still very dangerous and can be water-soluble.

I go a step further than what we normally recomend when discussing waste disposal 
I roast my hydroxide salts to form less soluble oxides before disposal, I also evaporate my solutions to salts.

I normally find a use or reuse most of my byproducts so I can also minimize the amount of waste generated that needs to be treated.

My copper nitrate solutions I do not consider waste after silver removal, I consider it a valuable chemical reagent I can find many uses for such as in a recovery method, or make other useful reagents out of them like nitric acid...


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

if you have a debate or an argument then take it out back to the debate section, so you are not ruining this thread with such a stupid argument for others wishing to learn how to properly deal with their waste.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Butcher with respect, being compared ethically to a drug dealer, putting “pregnant women” at risk, destroying my environment and then encouraging others to do the same is by no stretch of the imagination someone throwing a tantrum when they take objection to those accusations. I’m sick of the constant negative energy I see here that’s aimed at anyone outside the weird little circle. It’s like a weird men’s club.

You are basing your whole argument on something I did not say and ignoring the points I’ve made time and time again. I have boiled my waters down and they have been professionally tested with strips. 

I know they do not contain metals. Literally know this.

I would say someone in my profession probably isn’t adverse to researching. 

And if you really want to get into it, hydroxide waste is lawfully classed on quantities that are disposed over time frames which is the assessment used to determine whether it would need to go to a toxic waste site. I would advise anyone reading that unless you have a very very large dustbin, you will likely be ok. However I do not throw copper away.

I deal with contaminated sites to develop day in day out, that’s what’s making me laugh. Nickel, copper, asbestos. regular things I deal with and design out or around. This is something I’ve studied since I was 17. I’m paid a very good wage to do it. I have a honours degree engineering.... guess what butcher, a large part of that is understanding ground behaviour and believe it or not, includes contamination.

Unbelievable. Sheer arrogance.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 17, 2020)

You seem to have a short memory about what you've said.



Jmk88 said:


> I don’t recall once saying “throw every bit of copper hydroxide into your general trash bin, that’s what I do”.





Jmk88 said:


> I know in the U.K. copper doesn’t need to be treated as toxic waste so as long as you have it in solid form, ie oxides, you can just bag it up and dispose?



While you may not have said "throw it in your general trash bin" in exactly those words, that's what most of us do with anything that doesn't need to be treated as toxic waste.



Jmk88 said:


> No one suggested to water their garden with it.





Jmk88 said:


> Once I’ve got my silver chloride out I just add bicarbonate till I get a neutral Ph, water, filter through a 1l Büchner flask and collect all oxides and then just use the water for my garden.



If you'd read this entire thread, you might understand what people are trying to tell you.

Dave


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Yes I do that Dave but did I advise someone else to? 

Yes unless you are meeting the required volumes consistently over an intermittent time frame you would need to register it as waste. I can advise you that copper flashings are regularly disposed of in general building waste. But I only work on large scale construction for 9 hours a day so again, probably best to dismiss everything and anything I say.

I doubt the chap is creating such volumes. I may be wrong.

In any case like I said I feel it’s time to bid farewell to the forum. I feel nothing but negative energy whenever I participate or speculate and to be blunt, nothing you lot know isn’t in Hoke anyway.

I’ll ask KA driver when I need real help. My man should be running this place anyway.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

You can see Dave from the roses that I’m poisoning it all. You know the rose bush right next to my mixing and filtering table. Looks really really really unhealthy doesn’t it? 

Almost dead I would say? No?


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## jimdoc (Jun 17, 2020)

Jmk88 said:


> You can see Dave from the roses that I’m poisoning it all. You know the rose bush right next to my mixing and filtering table. Looks really really really unhealthy doesn’t it?
> 
> Almost dead I would say? No?



Maybe you should start your own forum. You know, only for very very smart people.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Maybe I should.

I’ll make sure bullying is dealt with swiftly.


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## FrugalRefiner (Jun 17, 2020)

Jmk88 said:


> In any case like I said I feel it’s time to bid farewell to the forum.



And yet, you're still here posting.

Trolls try to disrupt, destroy, or change a group, forum, blog, etc. to fit their own agendas.

They post provocative, hostile, or annoying messages. They claim they want to help, but they really only want to cause trouble. They believe their own desires are more important than those of others They often claim to be victims who are treated unfairly. When someone asks them to change their behavior, they'll claim innocence and complain that they are being censored.

Trolls only stay as long they are fed or given attention. So please don't feed the trolls.

Dave


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/6504209/

Your roses look good but that does not mean the soil around them is not contaminated.

No one ever compared you to a drug dealer, just trying to explain the dangers involved and consequences are similar if you dump toxic waste on your roses, or put toxic waste in your trash bin you can contaminate your soil and your home to the point your land will not be safe for anyone to live on it safely without possible future health risks.

Jmk88. 
It is because I would like to help you that I confront you on these matters.
If that is arrogance then so be it.

You are taking it negatively, instead of considering it and using it to learn better and further your study into working more safely, instead of considering the advice or criticism you begin to argue and debate thinking others are just an arrogant closed group of people that are for some reason against you, and they are just full of bull crap or are wrong and have no clue of what they speaking of, while they are trying to help you understand for your own safety, your family's safety and those who live in the same area where you dispose of your waste products.

Sometimes considering--- is helpful before getting upset and becoming argumentive, who knows you may learn that you were wrong or mistaken and can educate yourself better.

You cannot become right until you can realize when you are wrong.

I may not like it when I am wrong or did not fully understand something and then someone points it out to me. But I can enjoy it when I learn I did not know or when someone shows me I am wrong because I cannot be right until I give up my old wrong thinking and learn better.


Arguing and thinking I am right can make me very wrong.
considering I may not be right can help me on my way of becoming right.

Your safety is too important to argue over, your health more important than being right or thinking you are, it is something you should continue to study to become as right as possible...

Calm down my friend we are just trying to help you and others protect ourselves as much as possible from these dangers we have chosen to work with and make these toxic substances as safe as we can before disposal.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Loooooool.

And bully’s seek compliance without any reason at all. They seek to dominate their fellow man and when unable, they begin to attach character which when the recipient is strong and able enough to withstand, they normally resort to darker mechanisms and ultimately violent means of doing so.

However bully’s rarely have the respect of their fellow man to know them, and therefore lack understanding of their victim who inevitably becomes their enemy. A great Chinese man once said that he who does not know his opposition, Or self, will fall in every battle.


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## jarlowski1 (Jun 17, 2020)

Well I can honestly say I am done trying to help this man.... There are those that simply refuse to learn or take advice or criticism and will argue no matter what, and I think this man may be that type. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

Well thanks for all your extensive efforts jarwolkswi I can’t be bothered to retype.

Honestly my man, you have been a huge part of helping me get to where I’ve got and when you’re sitting there with your beer, don’t forget that. It’s me. I’m the one with the problem I’m ungrateful for all your super technical help and guidance along the way. 

I’m not getting into this again. You lot have the last word.

I’ll just be posting my results in gallery, I’ll let that do my talking.

But honestly jowski, you have been a massive massive help and I’m one ungrateful, ignorant, stubborn man. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezwasssss.

This post was edited in order to conform with forum rules.


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

I am a little slow and it takes me longer to learn things, but I am beginning to think you may be right, all I know for sure is this is a disruption to the forum and must come to an end soon one way or the other.




http://www.porexfiltration.com/learning-center/technology/precipitation-microfiltration/


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

And now we’re getting somewhere! 

Had someone asked me regarding the filtration systems used by these people I would have been able to comment.

I myself use a 0.015um filter system which is triple layered.

This was set up professionally by a consultant for me. I then filter and I can assure you, I have insisted on testing the filtered solution and it does not contain ANY metal whatsoever. None.

I then add copperas. 

I would not look very good as a sustainable design consultant if I was found to be poisoning my localised environment with heavy metals. And note you can send to land full but if you begin to produce larger quantities very regular you will need to take it somewhere else.

Contaminated soil with nickel or copper really isn’t difficult to deal with. Unless it’s extreme.


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## butcher (Jun 17, 2020)

You did not remove all of the heavy toxic metals from your acidic solutions if all you did is to raise the pH to a neutral solution of pH7 and filter it, no matter how fine the filer paper you used, or how well built of a filter press your using, and what good would it do to add sulfated salts of iron to this toxic filtered solution unless you need copperas on your roses?



Jmk88 said:


> I myself use a 0.015um filter system which is triple-layered.
> 
> This was set up professionally by a consultant for me. I then filter and I can assure you, I have insisted on testing the filtered solution and it does not contain ANY metal whatsoever. None.
> 
> I then add copperas.



The only way the filtered solution would not contain "Any metal whatsoever. None. is if you distilled the solution prior to filtering the purer water condensate, otherwise you have metals in the salt solution (including soluble toxic metals) whether your test reagents or methods can detect them is another discussion.

If you do not contaminate your soil with copper, nickel, or other metals you will not have to be concerned with how hard it is to clean up the hazardous waste from your soil.

Dumping any of the products from recovery and refining of metals, acids, salts, chemicals or even water from washes into your garden soil, is just well, a bad idea, to say the least, and foolish would not be too far off a description, asking to be poisoned would probably fit the bill.

Stop the trolling, start studying so you that you can gain an education of the facts you so misunderstand at this point about treating your waste for proper and safe disposal.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 17, 2020)

I have indeed boiled over a dozen litres down and there were certainly no visible precipitates.

One would assume they would be concentrated following such and a professional waste processor would be able to identify them.

I have left a message with the company for information on the testing strips they use.

I will provide the information once it’s received.


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## goldenchild (Jun 17, 2020)

Shouldn't the last solution after total waste treatment be salt water? I thought that if you removed all metals from solution and then neutralized it, it should be salt water? At least before some desalinization process.


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## butcher (Jun 18, 2020)

Yes, the solution will be salts of metals and the acids at pH7.

Our drinking water still contains metals at PH 7 , so saying the solution has No metals, absolutely none, is just not true, luckily most of our drinking water is treated by the earth for our wells, and by water technicians for city waters, and the toxic heavy metals have been removed for the most part making water safer to drink.

What is flushed into a sewer by the people living upriver is treated for drinking water by the people living downriver.( living in the city downriver you can just hope that man is doing his job properly), and they are not contaminating your drinking water and their sewer facilities are working upriver, and also they are doing their job properly.

If you drink from a well or a spring just hope your neighbor is not dumping salts from his attempts to learn to dissolve metals in acids, thinking his solutions are safe to dump on the ground that makes his roses grow big and pretty from the all of the metal nitrate salts involved...


metal + acid = salts
salt of the metals and acids

What you dispose of is not gone.


If I have an acidic solution with heavy metals the solution will contain metal cations and the acids anions along with the acidic hydronium ions in solution H3O, basically, ions of any metal or metal ions of that alloy previously involved some of these metals we may need to stay healthy (in small quantities) can be toxic to our environment or our health in larger quantities, several of the metals we are involved within our scrap metal alloys or electronic or other scrap are heavy metal poisons.

Once we put metals and acid together in solution, all kinds of reactions can be taking place with byproducts forming in solution.

Evaporating an acidic solution can besides evaporate water, drive reactions forward, drive the more volatile components out of solution and begin to push out the metal and acid ions as the lesser soluble salts crystalize out of solution, one acid and metal can push another acid out of solution and even change the metal salt involved in solution...

Many of these ionic salts of metals and acids can be insoluble salts,( see solubility rules) others are fairly soluble but can be pushed out of solution by an overload of how many ions the concentrated solution can hold, just as adding table salt to hot water there comes a point where the ionic solution will hold not more ions and adding more salt it leaves NaCl in the bottom of the glass, the temperature also plays a role on the solubility of metal salts

If I use copper to cement and recover the values from solution, I still have an acidic copper solution with the other toxic heavy metals left in this acidic solution (any metal that was involved in the alloy of the scrap being dissolved).

Adding iron metal will displace most of the copper ions from solution converting them to copper metal, as the iron and its metals alloys dissolve into solution as ions, as iron gives up electrons to the copper ions...
Besides copper the iron will displace other metals from solution (basically contaminating the copper powder with toxic heavy metals) metals Like Cadmium, cobalt, nickel, lead, antimony, arsenic, bismuth can contaminate the copper metal and salts of metal dragged down with everything else...

Now adding sodium hydroxide will help to convert the acids to salts, depleting the hydronium ions involved in the solution, raise the pH, and begin to form metal hydroxides. as you raise the pH towards being more basic many metal ions will become more insoluble to the point we can begin to remove them as salts of the metals and or hydroxides of the metals. as we raise the pH to PH7 (neutral many of the metal salts become more insoluble metals like iron form hydroxides and precipitate out of solution given time along with more of the copper ions metals that give strong color to the solution...

Even though the solution may become more clear with most of the copper and iron which give color removed at this pH of 7 (neutral) we are not done removing the toxic heavy metals,.

Many metals that may precipitate in a basic solution (when we add hydroxide or an alkaline solution) and then they can dissolve again as we add more caustic soda or alkali's redissolving the precipitate to form soluble metal hydroxide or metal complexes, they may precipitate being slightly basic and then dissolve again as the solution becomes more basic the amphoteric metals.

we need to raise the pH even further to remove more toxic metals, viewing the chart




We see: 
Ferric ions (iron) are least soluble somewhere around pH 4.

Copper and chromium least soluble around pH 7 to 8, with chromium being amphoteric begins to redissolve back into solution as we raise the pH to make the solution more basic.

Zinc, nickel, cadmium, and lead are at their minimum solubility at around pH of 10 to 11, with lead and cadmium being amphoteric...

Silver complexes may stay in a solution that is extremely basic, but then we are not discussing silver complexes here.

So raising our waste solution to pH 10 or 11 we can precipitate out most (but not all) of the heavy toxic metals like zinc, nickel, and lead.

Then lowering the pH to 7-8 to precipitate metals most of (but not all of ) the remaining copper and chromium

we do not remove all of the metals in the process, we do not eliminate all of the heavy toxic metals, but we make the solution safe to dispose of (properly) making the solution a much less toxic salt solution.


I go a step further and evaporate my salt solutions to dry salts (some then reused, and other are disposed of properly).

The cemented metals like your copper are not pure and contain other metals and salts of metals that may be more toxic than the metal you cemented from solution, to begin with...

The hydroxides and salts can be dried and disposed of properly, normally, and legally that is all that is normally required before properly disposing of the hydroxides.
Even though they are fairly insoluble now does not mean they are not still water-soluble, so here I also go a step further than necessary dealing with my waste, I roast the hydroxide red hot in an oxidizing environment in order to convert these metal hydroxide salts to the more stable oxides.

Note we did not remove all of the toxic metals from the solution this salt of the acid still holds very reactive metals and traces of toxic metals...


Further discussion not related to our waste treatment:
we do not need to, for our waste, but we could remove more of the traces of the toxic metals using sulfide precipitation and then chelating agents and fine filtering to remove more of the ions from our salts solution.

The remaining salt solution after we are done beside very reactive metals, sodium, potassium, or other reactive metal ions (cations), we also have the ions of the acids left in solution, nitrates, chlorides, sulfates, fluorides or whatever the solution involved with previously in the pot we made this mess in...

To further treat the solution to make it purer the use of Ion exchange is often used which can displace one metal for another metal ion, which may become more insoluble at a different temperature or pressure or will react chemically different.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 18, 2020)

Yes. But most of which you can deal with via incineration proper to your recovery process and remove as solids. Nickel being an exception but a caustic treatment will achieve this.

If you’ve got lead or cadmium in your pot during a nitric recovery you have already gone wrong. And have not incinerated you’re material properly.

This is the response I received:

Dear Joe,

Thank you for your enquiry by email. It is nice to hear from you. I hope things are going well and you’ve settled into the new place.

Whilst we would never commit to removing 100% of contaminants in water solutions (and acidic), we are confident we can achieve 99.99% removal of all solids, regardless of their size, this includes all salts and ions.

The definition of contaminants is somewhat hard to agree. However we form salts with our caustic pre treatment methods prior to compression which is then filtered with hexagonally bonded ultra fine layered filters which are cleaned after every process.

We have a number of these systems that can be operated at any given time for extensive periods. 

The report you were issued and the treatment methods that we outlined meet the lawful requirements within the U.K. if followed correctly which is set out in our detailed method statement, which we issued to you as an appendix to the core document. We have based our advice on the scale of your work and the premises we visited in September of 2019.

I am happy to provide comfort in writing that the waste quantities you have described to me, if true, do not require professional disposal and can be taken to land fill. As explained to you before, this would only ever change if you believe you have crossed the threshold set out in section 2 of our report.

In which case, it would be prudent to consider appointing a professional waste company such as ourselves for physical disposal, in regards to economic viability. The cost of auditing to obtain your licences would not be viable as a waste producer. You would require the correct apparatus and management which is added cost. Annual maintenance of the systems is another consideration.

In answer to your query regarding our waste treatments, these vary depending on location and the nature of the waste as well as many other variable factors. Our treatment of soluble metals such as copper is carried out by precipitation methods and careful filtering measures. PH manipulation is carried out by our technicians which is digitally monitored to achieve the precipitation of metal salts.

We then store our precipitated waste for 30 days before compressing the material and taking to a general waste landfill site. We are licensed to treat large volumes of such waste as well as disposal of. It is very similar to a reverse osmosis process. I can provide you material on this if you request. No fee will be required.

The testing methods on your samples provided were carried out by distillation and measurements of the resulting solids by weight. We have also used testing strips and colour identification which we trust and have regularly audited to maintain our quality compliance qualifications, which forms part of our licensing requirements.

I can assure you that the comments you have unfortunately received accusing you of poisoning the environment are inaccurate at the best and malicious at the worst. We would not advise you in any manner if we believed you were behaving outside the requirements of U.K. law.

Please also remember to wear protective equipment such as gloves when handling any wastes described, as copper hydroxides can be absorbed by the skin and in excessive levels cause blood poisoning. If you adhere to the method statement in line with our detailed risk assessment in appendix 3 you should not encounter issues. The two documents should not be read separately.

Sorry to hear that you’ve had to deal with this. All that work we’ve done to reassure you and seems like you’ve been sent back to where you started!

We are here if needed.

Best Regards,

**** Levi-Johnson

Technical Director and Senior Metallurgist

********* Metals Ltd


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## butcher (Jun 18, 2020)

So Mr. Levi-Johnson has his company have the knowledge and understanding of how to properly treat your waste for you, and properly dispose of its hazardous waste.

I suggest you send your waste to him and let his company deal with it, and stop pouring the toxic solutions in your yard.

If you do not let him and his company treat and deal with your waste then I suggest you learn to do it properly for yourself, you can begin learning how by studying dealing with waste in our safety section.

Dealing with Waste


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## Jmk88 (Jun 18, 2020)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Have a good day.


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## butcher (Jun 18, 2020)

Thank you, I will, Joe, and I hope that your day is as good as mine, our health and safety is much more important than any gold and silver, we can only educate ourselves as much as we possibly can to minimize those dangers. even with our limited education with all of our study we should never dump any of these solutions into our soil to dispose of them when we can learn to properly dispose of the waste or pay someone who is educated in that field and who will do it properly.

Again, Joe, I plead that you to spend as much of your time studying the safety aspects and dangers involved in our work, and learn how to protect yourself, gaining a better understanding of how to deal with waste as you spend trying to learn how to recover the precious metals.

Educating yourself is the treasure map to gold, but that gold is no good without your health.
Education is also the key to getting gold but also used wisely is the key to enjoying that gold and staying healthy, and not harming others...

I hope you understand my friend and do so wisely, and we both can gain something from our friendly debate on the subject and better ourselves.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 18, 2020)

Agreed. Completely.

Thanks Butcher. I think a nights sleep always helps too.


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## kurtak (Jun 18, 2020)

I am going to come to Jmk88 defense here

Dealing with the toxic waste created in refining is an important part of refining - you can't simply dump the waste down the drain - nor can you simply adjust Ph to 7 - filter & send the solids to the land fill & dump the remaining water/solution down the drain

for starters different metal drop out at different Ph - so depending on metals in solution you may need to adjust Ph - filter - adjust Ph - filter - etc.

Also - hydroxide/carbonate Ph adjustment may (or not) get everything - you may need to use sulfide/sulfate treatment (to drop more crap) - &/or incorporate flocculants &/or coagulants

in other words its a question of if the waste treatment is being done "proper"

the only way to know that is if you have a good idea of the metals in solution to start with & what 
treatment(s) may be needed to "clean up" the waste

One metal in solution is relatively simple - the more metals the more complicated

to be sure your waste is "properly" treated - "requires" testing of the waste - AFTER treating the waste - as more may need to be done to insure the treatment is complete

the ONLY way to do that is to contact a "waste treatment" company - tell them what you are dealing with - & they will send you a testing kit with instructions

Clearly Jmk88 has done this - & I am willing to bet the vast majority the "hobby" refiners on this forum have not & are not doing this - they are just following the "basic" waste treatment instruction posted on this forum

So - good job Jmk88 - for consulting with a waste treatment company about "proper" waste treatment

However - that said - you are FAR to defensive which causes you to become argumentative which in turn causes you to "come after" the person(s) replying in the thread - instead of addressing the issue of the thread --- & then the whole thread goes off the hook

So why don't you stick to addressing the issue - instead of coming after person(s)

In other words - focus more on better explaining why/how/what you are doing to insure your waste treatment is done proper & that your waste is safe for disposal 

And butcher is right - simply adjusting Ph to 7 & filtering is not good enough - there is more to it then that 

So don't get "stuck" on one thing butcher has questioned you about - take it beyond that one point & explain the "greater" details you have learned of waste treatment from the company you have consulted with

Again - address the issue with more details about waste treatment - rather then being so easily offended & then "come after" person(s) when they are "simply" questioning you - should not be as hard as you seem to be making it

Just my opinion

Kurt


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## Jmk88 (Jun 18, 2020)

Noted. 

And thank you.

I will PM you as I don’t think it’s the place to respond to the other points. 

Thanks Kurt.


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## jarlowski1 (Jun 18, 2020)

Well put Kurt! Thank you Butcher for the amount of time and knowledge you commit to this forum. I don't know if I have thanked you publicly in the last 7 years or so I have been here but I am now. I only hope those that have joined and those that continue to join can see and appreciate and respect that. You too Kurt and Dave... If I don't put your name in this post it isn't because I don't acknowledge your input but the post would become too long. You guys know who you are. On the subject.... the reason for my post is quite in line with what Kurt has said. I am glad Jmk88 has sought help in dealing with his waste and thank him for doing so, but like Kurt said others are not going to be as thorough as Jmk88 has been so with that in mind we have to be careful with what we suggest on the forum. Others are reading it and may misinterpret what is being said. Jmk88 I apologize for that comment I made about not helping you. It was uncalled for. Maybe I should have seen what Kurt has in respect that you are concerned with the safety of things as I am. Hope this clears the air...


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## butcher (Jun 18, 2020)

This is what the forum is all about, us helping each other, working together as much as we possibly can to educate ourselves and to share so that we all can benefit in some manner.

The members are what make the forum what it is, in dealing with only written words we are very limited, it is easy to misunderstand an intention, easy to misunderstand what is being said of the meaning behind it, just basically misunderstand the written words and thus misunderstand each other, or not know all of the details being blind to anything but words and the images they portray in our minds (true or false).

I praise our members for dealing with these handicaps so well, what an exceptional group of men and women helping each other to improve themselves we have here amongst us here.

Every one of us has something to share here, we all have different experiences in life, different interests, and have gained knowledge and understanding in differing fields, we all have things we understand well and things we do not understand that well, hopefully, we do not go around thinking we know something when we do not because that is just plainly dangerous, each member here has something to share no matter our skill level, and we all can learn something from every member here to help improve our lives.

None of us are really experts (in the true sense), we have just may have a little better understanding or more experience in certain fields or walks of life, and as we work together and overcome our disabilities and we can share those experiences with each other then we all become closer to becoming true experts in our walk of this path in life, and with all of the great members we have on our forum, I feel we all are blessed here to be among such a great group of individuals, I know I have been as you have all help me to better myself.


I cannot say how many times I wanted to make a comment on someone's thread to express my gratitude for what I was learning or how they were helping me to understand something, or how much I appreciated the information they provided, but also did not wish to muddy your thread and so I said nothing and failed to thank you then.

A teacher can learn as much or more from his students than he could ever teach.
You all have been my teachers, we all are students if we wish to learn and grow.

Too bad we have such handicaps to deal with. Or then again just maybe the handicap is also somewhat a good thing for us as a group, because then, on the other hand, there may be a few bloody noses before we could understand each other better and work together :lol: But then again words can cut worse than any sword and can be harder to overcome than a bloody nose. so go figure darned if we do darned if we don't.


Thank you all, you are all just amazing individuals, I am glad and proud to call you my friends.


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## Jmk88 (Jun 18, 2020)

It’s all good. 

I never confuse passion for things with people being unreasonable. I understand the difference.

I have the benefit of having the contacts through my occupation for things like this but I still paid good money and I don’t think anyone starting to do something like we do without a chemistry background is obliged to. It’s not even a lot of money to do. Less than 1000£ which in the long run it you do this for 30 years is relative if you look at it that way. That’s 33.33£ a year! Less than a gram of gold. Plus who knows where it takes you and having a professional waste company to consult with may serve you wonders if luck finds you and you need to expand your practise.

It ties in with my other comments. I don’t think refining should be attempted by people that don’t genuinely want to produce the best product. The money follows that naturally. It’s a bit like sport, we all love watching it and having a kick around with our friends, thinking we’re sportsman for that hour. But what separates us from the pros is passion, dedication and attitude. 

They sacrificed and they committed to something they saw through.


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## Cap1 (Nov 16, 2021)

Jmk88 said:


> What exactly will I get “busted” for? Why am I being made out to be a big villain?
> 
> I don’t recall once saying “throw every bit of copper hydroxide into your general trash bin, that’s what I do”. You may indeed bag this up and if you dispose of it correctly, which I assumed Dylan was doing if he’s doing it with nitrate also, then what are you doing that’s wrong? To be clear, I DO NOT DISPOSE OF HYDROXIDES IN MY GARDEN OR MY GENERAL WASTE. That’s not once what I’ve said.
> 
> ...


replying to jmk88's post.

I have seen in garden nurseries Leaf Curl powder of Copper Hydroxide. Mix with water and spray liberally onto your peach or any stone fruit plant to prevent leaf curl. Is that also a contamination of Copper Hydroxide into the soil? Doesn't seem to hurt the peach tree or any other plant in the nearby area, so how can gardeners get away with it and refiners cannot? Just a thought.


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## MicheleM (Nov 16, 2021)

Thanks to all of you guys, very helpful discussion.


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## Martijn (Nov 16, 2021)

Up until a century ago it was common practice to just dump all the waste from whichever process into the river and on landfill sites. 
Which has led to serious problems for a lot of people. 
The new responsible way is to think about what you're doing to our world. 

If every newby here dumps his waste in the soil without thinking, we would be creating a lot of problems for future generations... like pharma labs in india are dumping their toxic medicine waste in the rivers, creating superbacteria. Creating a really big hazard for the entire world population. It's not just cheap and easily replaceable labor, it's the lack of rules that make the location attractive. 
Allthough on one hand i believe we should take the warning labels off everything and let stupidity work itself out of the genepool... There will be too much colleteral damage for the rest of us... not really an option in this field. 
So if you have a pure product that can be used as plant fungicide or leaf curl stopper, does not say you can spray your refiners waste to do the same. 
Surely you will have that exceptional situation where only copper is present, but mist of us have a mix of toxins to deal with. 
And the fact that a company has lobbied enough for a product to be allowed in certain areas, does not mean its good for you or your health in the long run. 
Making money and responsibility do not often go hand in hand. 
Monsanto round up and their genetic crop theft lawyers e.g... pollen blowing with the wind nakes one a thief..
'Until proven, we will deny as long as profit allows...' is not a good responsible example.. 
I'm sure that even pure copper hydroxide is bad for plants... let alone if for consumption.

Martijn.


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## Martijn (Nov 16, 2021)

Are you sure you mean Copper *HYDROXIDE*?? I found on this site: it speaks of *oxychloride* 

As part of a treatment and prevention regime, copper oxychloride Demildex can be used for effective leaf curl prevention. Copper *oxychloride* Demildex is a systemic fungicide that has been proven to work against the fungus _T. defrormans _and is a preferable choice *to avoid the buildup of excess copper in the soil*.

The difference in chemistry can be in one letter. The difference to life can be huge.. 

Read and make sure you say what you say is true and checked.


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## butcher (Nov 16, 2021)

Our soils are made up of metal salts, our fertilizers are also salts of metals, fungicides the list goes on, we use metals and salts and solutions in almost everything from our roofs to our baby's butt powders, go figure we use them as medicines, and our bodies have and function because of metals and even acids our bodies are composed, plants just as fish animals and even the small creatures of the earth depend on metals and salts or acids and alkalies for survival, some under certain limits is necessary for life and survival, while more of the same metal in another instance can mean the destruction or death of life,

I do not care to waste valuable time debating such a moot point, we deal with some very dangerous waste and it should be treated responsibly, to even consider dumping it in your yard, flushing it down a drain into someone else's drinking water, or doing anything but to study and use our metals, chemicals acids or alkalies as responsibly as we can.

Yea if we have an understanding we can grow our food in chemicals in and with metal compounds, and use them to treat our drinking water, but if we think we know what we are talking about doing (and do not) and we can also cause harm to ourselves our family and the nature around us, poisoning ourselves either slowly or faster.

Deal with metals chemicals paints petroleum products even your gardening products... And your toxic hazardous waste from your chemical processes as waste, dealing with it as safely and properly as you possibly can, continue to engage in your study the subject of dealing with waste, even if or after you believe you have a good understanding (possibly incompletely or falsely)of the subject, our survival as man depends on all of us, and for anyone suggesting of dumping waste from recovery or refining on their garden or where it can get into the worlds waters, better understand what they are spitting out of their mouth, before publishing their opinion on such a topic, supplying factual scientific information on it, for something that has such consequences for us all and all of our safety.

Yes, we all use chemicals every day to poison our earth in most anything we do, but we can also weigh and consider the cost and benefits or advancements from doing so, and do the best we can not poison ourselves further than we need to.

Deal with waste as waste stop spitting out what "ya think", but instead continue to study and do not stop studying to do the best you can to treat and deal with your hazardous waste from your chemical labs properly.


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## 4metals (Nov 17, 2021)

I had mistakenly thought this thread was the same as a thread started over 10 years ago with the same name. In that thread, I posted, (one of my first posts if I remember correctly) a method for small refiners to deal with their waste. 

This thread is more about an entirely different method of treating waste and there are some important differences which I think are important to point out here. In the original dealing with waste thread I gave a method for dropping metals out of solution as metals, and not as oxides (or any other salt form). From what I gather here we are talking about removing the metals as hydroxides by shifting the pH and taking advantage of the solubilities of different metals at different pH's. (Thank you Butcher for that useful graphic representation of what metals drop and re-dissolve over a range of pH.) In the end, they both get the majority of metals out of solution but that is where the similarities end.

Removing metals from solution by adjusting the pH is considered the classic method to treat waste and it is employed by large operations having the luxury of an analytical lab which can support the operation with analysis of the discharge. Generally the de-watered hydroxides are shipped off as Hazardous Waste and the water (if it meets discharge standards) is discharged to ground. 

The catch is not all metal salts are dangerous or toxic in the ground as there are additives called chelating agents which can "lock up" the metals in a form from which they will not be dissolved once in a landfill. I have set up facilities with systems to drop all of the metals and chelate them and have the resultant solid waste be considered non hazardous. And have laboratory results to back that up.

But it isn't as simple as saying I chelated the metals so it isn't hazardous. The EPA has proposed and congress passed the Resource conservation recovery act way back in 1976. It lists specifically 8 metals that determine if a waste is hazardous or not. These metals are tested by a leaching process called TCLP (Toxicity Characteristic Leaching Procedure) which determines if any of these 8 metals will leak out into a sanitary landfill when exposed to the elements. If your solid waste fails this test the waste is considered hazardous. If you look at the RCRA 8 you will notice copper is missing. Well it's not a get out of jail free card because the process which will render these 8 metals insoluble works for copper as well so if you have the 8 RCRA metals present, and copper, and you pass on the 8, copper is a safe bet to be insoluble as well. The actual law has pages and pages of specifics to single out situations where this may not be true but generally speaking for refiners of precious metals it is true. 

The original thread did not use hydroxides to drop the metal salts, it uses what we call cementation to drop the metals as metals from the solution. Dropping as a metal has the advantage that generally the metals, in a metallic state are much more insoluble than salts. The copper drops the precious metals which we are looking for, and then the iron drops everything beneath it on the electromotive series chart. What the iron drops is primarily copper with any tin, lead, cadmium, and a few others (check the list) as metals. These can be dried and melted, as a lot of refiners do, and sold as scrap. It may look like copper but don't expect top dollar. Then the iron is dropped as rust at a pH of about 3.5. If there was any zinc or chromium in solution it remains in the liquid. Often times it was so low in concentration that it met discharge standards of some states, but before discharging any liquid it is best to test it. 

The reason for this long winded post is to help differentiate between "waste treated metal solids" as they are not all the same. To be safe, as I was then I "hobby" refined approximately a kilo a week of scrap jewelry. I collected the copper fraction and sun dried it and melted it. I settled and collected the "rust" and dried it into bricks which I admit I still have laying around, and I evaporated the water to yield a salt which I actually had TCLP tested and it came back as non hazardous so I sent it out with a clients non haz waste. Truth be told after about 18 months of doing this, it was all contained in 2 1/2 five gallon pails. I had the rust bricks tested too and they were non hazardous. 

Please note none of this material was fed to my garden soil or rose bushes!


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## MicheleM (Nov 17, 2021)

This is the link of the thread in which @4metals explains how dealing with waste Dealing with Waste. Thank you @4metals


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