# Silver Cell Restart



## kadriver (Nov 8, 2012)

Hello:

I restarted my electrolytic silver cells yesterday evening.

I had to repair one of the graphite cathodes as the electrolyte had breached the silicon coating and gotten to the bare copper wire where it attaches to the graphite cathode, dissolving it away. The wire was loose and dangling only by the remaining silicone sealant.

To do the repair, I removed all foreign material from the graphite block, then boiled it in dilute nitric acid to dissolve the bits of copper inside the hole where the old copper wire was inserted into the graphite block.

This very effectively removed all traces of the old copper wire. I then rinsed it with lots of distilled water to get rid of all the excess nitric that I could.

Then I drilled the hole out a little bigger (7/32 drill bit) and inserted a new copper wire with a larger gauge than the previous wire. This is cathode "B" pictured on the right in the photo.

I applied fresh clear silicon sealant and allowed it to set for over 24 hours before putting it into service.

The other cathode, I'll call "A", was tight in the graphite block and therefore considered to be intact and making good contact.

After operating for about 12 hours, this is what the cells looked like, cathode "A" on the left, and cathode "B" on the right - cathode "B" is the one that was repaired;


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## kadriver (Nov 8, 2012)

The cathode on the left is growing crystals of silver like I am used to seeing. They are big and bright, but the growth is slow. 

The cathode on the right is growing crystals that look like sheeps wool, very mossy and shaggy.

By the way, the size and shape of each cathode is different. The cathode on the right is a bit larger than the cathode on the left.


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## kadriver (Nov 8, 2012)

I measured the voltage across each cell and the voltage was different, I am using the 3.3 volt rail on a converted PC power supply;


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## kadriver (Nov 8, 2012)

I made brand new anodes with new electrical connections.

I took a 1 ounce piece of pure silver, heated it and then pounded it with a hammer on an anvil.

I beat it into the shape of a piece of keystock about 3/16 inches thick by 6 inches long, then cut into four 1 1/2 inch pieces (I saved two of these for later use).

Then I flattened one end of the 1 1/2 inch piece, and bent it a little side ways.

Once properly shaped, I soaked the pieces in dilute (about 20%) nitric acid because they were full of iron oxide from the hammer and the anvil.

They came out of the nitric bath pretty and white, ready to be welded to the anode bar.

I gripped it with a pair of small vise grips and suspended it over the 2 ozt cavity of my graphite mold then poured molten silver into the mold.

I preheated the mold and the 1 1/2 inch piece of silver before pouring the molten silver in.

The molten silver welded itself to the hot piece of 3/16 inch pure silver keystock, gripping it tightly for a good electrical connection.

That is what you see in this picture;


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## kadriver (Nov 8, 2012)

I have ordered two new pieces of fine grain hard graphite that are identical in shape and size.

When they get here I will make new cathodes for the cells from them.

For now, I plan to go ahead and digest the anode bars that I have in the cells as they currently are.

When the cells are full, then I will harvest the silver from each, and run it all back throught the cells with fresh electrolyte and the new cathodes installed.

In the mean time, if anyone could suggest a different course, then please let me know. I have never seen this mossy silver growth in my silver cells before.

If anyone has any experience with this, then I would be greatful to hear from you.

kadriver


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## butcher (Nov 8, 2012)

I was just wondering if you could use silver wire on your cathode graphite instead of copper?

Maybe pouring silver in a piece of angle iron mold set with a tilt to make the wire.

The whole cathode could also be made of silver instead of graphite if you had enough silver to use, it would not have to be that thick.

I really enjoy your very informative threads.


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## Palladium (Nov 8, 2012)

I love the way Kadriver does these threads. For me though nothing is simpler and provides less maintenance than a stainless steel bowl.


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## MysticColby (Nov 8, 2012)

I based my cell off kadriver and it worked wonderfully. he really does have a great mind for doing things.
I don't know what's going on with the fuzzy silver.
I do have a couple unrelated suggestions:
solder the copper wire into the graphite block, then do waterproof sealant over that. might not be necessary, but it sure does give it a solid connection that will never come out.
supporting the anode basket with 2 rods that go through the tupperware on the diagonal corners allows for easier anode adding. also can support more weight and stays level.


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## kadriver (Nov 9, 2012)

A silver cathode connected with a silver wire. I could mask the silver cathode with tape, then dip the silver wire (and the masked silver cathode) in a bucket of liquid plasticoat to coat the wire.

I think if the wire was left uncoated that silver crystals would form all along the wire and hit the anode basket causing a short circuit, hense the reason for coating it.

I have heard of the idea of using a stainless bowl. The whole bowl would act as the cathode. It would have to be the right size in order to maintain 4 inches between the anode basket and the bowl in all directions.

Thanks to all for your input and kind words!

kadriver


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 9, 2012)

Were the 2 solutions identical when you re-started the cells? In other words, were they blended together before filling the cells?


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## kadriver (Nov 10, 2012)

Chris, yes, I used 220 grams of silver crystals from a previous harvest.

I measured as exactly as I could, so that each cell had identical densities of silver nitrate.

I added the silver nitrate to each cell, then filled each to one liter with distilled water, then stirred to mix.

Here is a shot of the cells after running a few days. I have never seen this type of growth before.

It resembles cotton candy or steel wool, very wavey and mossy.

before placing in operation, I boiled the graphite cathode in dilute nitric acid and the surface of that anode (the one on the right) was quite a bit more porous after that treatment.

I don't know if the porosity could have contributed to the unusual formation that I am observing.

One clue is this; the cell on the right, with the unusual mossy silver formation, is consuming the anodes much quicker than the cell on the left where crystal growth is slow but chunky.

I did not check resistance on the two cathodes before placing in operation. I'm stumped - but it sure makes a neat science project!

When I disassemble the cells, I'll check the continuity on eveything and track down the problem.

I plan to run the silver back through the cells again with fresh electrolyte and new cathodes.

kadriver


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## butcher (Nov 10, 2012)

Are these cells running on the same power supply? 
If same, with the same power supply are cells running in series or parallel?


If both cell are on the same power supply:
In a series circuit the voltage would divide between the cells, the current would be the same on both cells; the resistance of the cell (electrolyte) would determine the voltage on each of the cells.
In a parallel circuit the voltage of each cell would be the same, but the current would divide a portion of total current flowing through each cell.

As the cell resistance can change while running the cells:
In series one cell would have more voltage than the other, but both would have the same current.
In parallel one cell could have more current than the other, but voltage to each cell would be the same.

In A circuit where the cells will change in relation to the voltage or current the resistance of the cells can change (one cell kind of hogging all of the action), even though they both may have started off the same.
It would be interesting to measure voltage and current of each cell, using Ohms law in your figures, to maybe figure out what is happening.


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## acpeacemaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Absolutely, interestingly beautiful! 8)


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## etack (Nov 11, 2012)

kadriver said:


> I boiled the graphite cathode in dilute nitric acid and the surface of that anode (the one on the right) was quite a bit more porous after that treatment.



Could the mossy growth be to the larger surface area of the anode?

Eric


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## Palladium (Nov 11, 2012)

I know you really like to experiment Kadriver and i think if you went the stainless bowl route you would throw rocks at the graphite. Just my personal opinion but you can't get much more of a fail safe maintenance free system besides your solution controls. I posted a thread about a simple design i did a few months ago with a stainless bowl somewhere. I love stainless. It gives you so much more area for crystal growth verses a vertical griffin beaker.


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## kadriver (Nov 12, 2012)

Butcher, The cells are wired in series off a single power supply.

Electricity is not one of my strong points.

But my brother is an electrician, I'll get him to take a look at it and see if he can find a problem.

Stainless sounds like a good solution - I'll see if I can hunt down that thread Palladium.

Thank to all for all your inputs!

kadriver


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## Palladium (Nov 12, 2012)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11677&p=141635&hilit=stainless+steel+bowl#p141635


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## kadriver (Nov 12, 2012)

Excellent Palladium, thank you for posting that thread to the stainless silver cell design.

I bet one could use plexiglass instead of the cutting board and fasten it togehter with nylon screws - then you could see down into the cell.

Also, I like to use dacron sail cloth for my anode bags - its tough and no contaminants get through. I have never used muslin.

Many thanks,

kadriver


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## Palladium (Nov 13, 2012)

I don't think nylon and nitric get along, i may be wrong. I wanted a clear lid at first and then thought what for. It's to easy just to lift the lid and look in. I have another stainless bowl just like it that i just disconnect the anode and lift it out, i then place it over the other bowl to drain while i take a stainless spoon with holes in it and scoop the crystals out with it. Put the lid back on and clamp the anode. Wash the residue from the second bowl back into the first and put the lid on. The whole clean up takes only minutes and i'm ready to go again. I like the muslin because it's so cheap it's disposable to a fault. The stainless bowl also helps to dissipated any heat build up and you can clamp directly to it.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 13, 2012)

kadriver said:


> Excellent Palladium, thank you for posting that thread to the stainless silver cell design.
> 
> I bet one could use plexiglass instead of the cutting board and fasten it togehter with nylon screws - then you could see down into the cell.
> 
> ...



I agree with Ralph. Don't use nylon. Also, if the mesh of the cloth you use for the anode bag is too tight, it can hinder solution flow (but not current flow) and will soon deplete the solution of silver. You can't just use any type of cloth.


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## kadriver (Nov 13, 2012)

Got it - thank you for stearing me in the right direction to both of you.

Here are some photos of the cell taken today.

I am still baffled by this strange growth. I thought I might have a big air bubble under the anode baskets but not so.

After tamping down the fast growth of the cell, I disconneted the cells from powder and from each other and took some resistance readings with a meter.

The abnormal growth cell showed .168 on the disply with the meter set at 2K position.

The nornal growth cell reading was .294 with the meter set at the 2K position.

I am such a slacker with electricity that I don't even know what these readings mean except that the normal growth cell has a greater resistance than the abnormal growth cell. 

Does this discrepency in resistance mean a voltage difference exists? Less resistance would translate to higer voltage? Which in turn would translate into thinner crystals.

Any input from this new information would be appreciated.


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## MysticColby (Nov 13, 2012)

I believe you have said before you have the cells in series, so less resistance on one cell would mean a higher voltage on that cell.
Don't quote me on it: I would expect that if the resistance on the abnormal cell is half of the normal, then the voltage on the abnormal cell would be twice of the normal. So if you normally get 3v each, it would instead be 2v and 4v.


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## g_axelsson (Nov 13, 2012)

On the contrary, the lower the resistance the lower the voltage over that cell when connected in series.

Ohms law : U=R*I
I is the same current for both cells.

Let's define some variables for the cells.
U is the voltage over both cells, I is the current and R is the total resistance.
U1 is the voltage and R1 is the resistance over cell 1.
U2 is the voltage and R2 is the resistance over cell 2.

Then we get:
U=R*I, U1=R1*I, U2=R2*i
U=U1+U2, R=R1+R2
Solve for I gives :
U/R = I = U1/R1 = U2/R2=I2 rewrite
U1 = U*R1/R = U*R1/(R1+R2)
U2 = U*R2/R = U*R2/(R1+R2)

And so on, it's just to juggle the numbers around to get whatever you want as a function of the other variables.

Btw, the crystals in the "normal" cell are beauteful! :mrgreen: 

/Göran


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## kadriver (Nov 13, 2012)

If I remember correctly, the optimum voltage to plate out only silver in these cells is 1.5 volts to 4 volts.

If the abnormal cell with the thin crystals has lower resistance and therefore lower voltage (as per g_axelsson post) then the voltage in that cell may be going out of spec low and causing the abnormal growth.

before restarting the cells I replaced the wire lead going to the abnormal cell. It is about 30% larger diamemter than the wire lead going to the normal growth cell, plus it fits very tight into the graphite cathode.

I received my new graphite cathodes today. They are both identicle in size and shape (the cathodes in the cells currently are different size and shape).

I will install the wire leads in these new cathodes this evening. I use a 5/32 drill bit and a large gauge copper wire that fits very snug (almost an interference fit). They will both have the same diameter wire leads installed.

Tomorrow I will disassemble the cells and start over, using the crystals from the good cell to make fresh electrolyte (or I may just use the existing electrolyte).

What a great way to learn, by doing.

kadriver


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## element47.5 (Nov 13, 2012)

As per your usual, fantastic pix and procedure description! 

If the two cells are in series and if cell "B" shows a higher voltage, then it also has higher resistance. 

Volts = Amps * Ohms. Ohm's Law. 

Amps, eg; current, is unquestionably identical through the entire system, consisting of the two cells in series. That is perforce. Every electron entering one cell must be flowing through the other cell, as well. Thus, "amps" in the ohm's law equation is a constant (not really, it will change over time, but measured at any given moment, it is) Thus, as volts rise, meaning, as the indicated voltage across one cell rises (or, shows higher than the other one) then the resistance of the higher voltage cell is higher. I am a tad surprised that this is so but I don't argue with meters.

If the cell containing the newly-refurbed cathode connection shows the higher volts and all else is the same, then you seem to be saying that the newly refurbed cathode-connection is not as good as the older one.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 13, 2012)

In a real 30 gallon horizontal (Balbach-Thum) silver cell, the voltage runs between 3 to 4 volts. The anode current density is about 25-50 amps per square foot and the actual cathode is about twice the surface area as the anode. Effectively, though, since most all the silver deposits on the cathode area directly underneath the anode, the effective cathode area is about the same as the anode area. Therefore, in essence, the cathode current density is about the same as the anode current density.

These miniature silver cells are so much different and varied, dimensionally and otherwise, from a real silver cell, that each person's setup must be treated individually.

I do know, from experience, that if 2 cells ganged together aren't identical, in every respect, the results from the 2 will likely be different. Even if you can eventually make them work in beakers, it could be very much different when you go to larger cells. You would certainly be better off, in my opinion, to have a dedicated PS for each cell and use the correct current density. When you run 2 cells, there are probably 4 times more problems than if you were just running one.


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## Palladium (Nov 13, 2012)

I use an adjustable voltage and amperage supply for my silver cell so i can adjust each parameter differently. I've seen the difference in voltage and amperage across a wide range of deposits. I would assume the attributes you are observing are nothing more than that given all other parameters in the equation are the same. You mentioned one was depositing faster than the other. This can only occur with reduction at the cathode and electron transfer, hence the current differences that have to exist to see what you are seeing. This can be caused by any number of variables ever changing from the solution concentration, the fabric used, the wire size, graphite cathode size and density, even the distance the voltage travels from the transformer to the cell. That's what seems to disappear with the stainless bowl setup and the cathode being the whole bowl. I set my voltage at about 2.2 volts and jack the current up as far as it will go. Thing runs like a Ferrari!


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## kadriver (Nov 13, 2012)

element47.5 said:


> If the cell containing the newly-refurbed cathode connection shows the higher volts and all else is the same, then you seem to be saying that the newly refurbed cathode-connection is not as good as the older one.



To review, the cell with the normal growth has a voltage across the cell of 1.78 volts and resistance of .294

The abnormal cell with the newly refurbed cathode has a voltage of 1.52 volts and resistance of .168

Both readings, voltage and resistance, are both lower on the cell with the newly refurbed cathod and abnormal growth.

Actually, the newly refurbed cathode connection, and the increased wire size have both served to decrease resistance - the current flows more freely.

As explained earlier, this descrease in resistance produces a decrease in voltage - possibly dropping below the optimal for silver depositing properly on the cathode.

This looks like the problem - different resistances causing different voltages = different crystal formations.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 13, 2012)

Palladium, I like the idea of the stainless bowl. I am going to try it when I get all the components.

I just received my new graphite cathodes and I want to try and settle the problem with the unbalanced cells by installing these new graphite cathodes to see if that does the trick.

I have used both of these currently installed cathodes together in series before with no problems.

The only thing I changed since the last time I ran with them is the diameter of the lead wire - I increased it.

The readings I have taken with the meter tend to back this conclusion; lower resistance = lower voltage = abnormal crystal growth.

I must admit that all this makes for an interesting science experiment in electrochemistry!

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 13, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> You would certainly be better off, in my opinion, to have a dedicated PS for each cell and use the correct amount of voltage. When you run 2 cells, there are probably 4 times more problems than if you were just running one.



This is sound advice, I have several more PC power supplies sitting around doing nothing.

I could simply rig another PC power supply and have dedicated power supplies to each cell.

All these ideas and experiments floating around add much to our knowledge of these small cells.

kadriver


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## butcher (Nov 14, 2012)

Kadriver, 
Try wiring a small 12volt light bulb in series with your cell, like an 1157 tail light from a car tail light, (basically the lamps filament in series with your cell the filament acting as a wire to your cell from the positive of your power supply).

It will act as a visual indicator to what is happening in your electrolytic silver cell, it will also protect your power supply from a short circuit if the crystal growth shorts your cell, or you touch anode and cathode together accidentally.

If current is low in the circuit with your cell, the bulb will be dim, (indicating electrolyte cell resistance high in electrolyte or cell).

If current is high in the circuit the lamp will light brighter (cell electrolyte resistance low).

If your electrolytic cell shorts out (almost no resistance in cell), bulb will light to full brightness, the lamp will limit current in circuit, and protects your power supply from seeing a short circuit. (The lamp will limit current to around 2 amps max, your power supply will have to deliver) with this bulb, different bulbs can be chosen for different currents.

I really like your threads with pictures and scientific approach.

IF many silver ions in solution the resistance of the cell would be lower, if very few silver ions in solution the electrolyte resistance would be high.


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## HAuCl4 (Nov 14, 2012)

I'd add a spoon-full of 63% nitric acid to both cells and see if that works better.


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2012)

butcher said:


> IF many silver ions in solution the resistance of the cell would be lower, if very few silver ions in solution the electrolyte resistance would be high.



The light is a good idea - 1157 - I recognize this as one that fits in the tail light of my 67 Chevelle and I probably have one in my garage somewhere

Another forum member suggested I take a measurement to check the very ions you refer to butcher.

I rigged the two leads of my meter in a piece of plastic to hold them steady about an inch and a half apart.

I turned the cells off and disconnected the power supply, then held the piece of plastic with the probes inserted into the plastic and protruding below the plastic so I could introduce the probes into the electrolyte and get a resistance reading of the electrolyte only.

The numbers fluctuated and I could not get a steady reading to record. I am going to rig a support for the probes (so I don't have to hold it) and then try again so I can get a reading on the conductivity of just the electrolyte in each cell.

If the electrolyte of each cell is different by a wide margin, then that would also contribute to the differences in crystal growth in each of the cells. Plus it would give me an indication of how well I evenly divided the electrolyte between the cells, or whether or not the silver is being depleted from the solution.

Like Palladium and GSP said, there are so many variables in running the cells this way. Any number of things can gang up to create the very problem that I am having (the abnomal crystal growth).

But, it is fun to experiment and have these things go wrong so we can gain some knowledge and have a path for others to follow who may experience the same difficulty.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> I'd add a spoon-full of 63% nitric acid to both cells and see if that works better.



By adding the nitric as you suggest some of the silver crystal in the cells would dissolve increasing the amount of silver in the electrolyte.

I used an excess of silver to begin with using 110 grams of pure silver per cell.

The abnormal growth was observed from the very beginning of the operation of these cells when the silver concentration was at its peak.

I can try it, but I am getting ready to disassemble the cells and install new cathodes and I want to harvest all the silver crystal that I can so I can run it back through the cells a second time.

I plan to get baseline readings of the electrolyte (with the probes rigged in the electrolyte) before I restart to serve as a reference. That way I can use the information butcher gave earlier about silver ions to determine if the silver is being depleted (or getting dammed up in the anode basket due to improper filter material being used as per GSP).

thank you!

kadriver


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 14, 2012)

I know this topic is controversial on the forum but, were it me, I would definitely start the cell with some copper in it. From my experience, you'll get better crystal. I always used more but you might try at least 1 tr.oz/gal = 8.2 g/l, dissolved in a minimum amount of nitric. It certainly won't do any harm. The limit on copper is 8-12 oz/gal and that would provide a lot of leeway.

Silver cells are one of the most studied subjects. After working with them for 100 years, or so, they have them down pat. In my books, I probably have references to 20 or 30 different silver cell formulations from very major silver operations. In every case, copper is listed as a major ingredient. Why would they add the copper if they didn't think it was desirable to do so? Most references say that copper improves the crystal characteristics. A silver cell is basically a plating system. In the 10 years I spent in the plating industry, I learned early on that it is a big mistake to make changes to the proven formulations. Any time I made up any plating bath, I went to the professional literature and made it up exactly as recommended. This always worked. When I tried to reinvent the wheel, the results were most always iffy.

Although I never experimented with it, I also tend to agree with HAuCl4 about the nitric. Most every formulation I've seen has a little free nitric in it. Not much. Most I've seen are in the range of 1 to 4%.


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## HAuCl4 (Nov 14, 2012)

Excess nitric attacks silver. Where?. Where it offers bigger surface area. Where does this happen, at the anode or at the "fluffy" cathode deposit?.

It's not magic. It's common sense. GSP is right in the copper addition too. I can't explain that one, except that it just is.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 14, 2012)

HAuCl4 said:


> Excess nitric attacks silver. Where?. Where it offers bigger surface area. Where does this happen, at the anode or at the "fluffy" cathode deposit?.
> 
> It's not magic. It's common sense. GSP is right in the copper addition too. I can't explain that one, except that it just is.


I guy I worked for ran 12, 30 gallon Thum cells. When a cell solution got low in silver and started plating out some copper in the crystal (he could tell by the appearance of the crystal), he added a liter or two or three of nitric. This dissolved the contaminated crystal and built up the silver concentration.


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## kadriver (Nov 14, 2012)

I have read the addition of copper makes for better crystal growth.

Steve mentions it in his DVD on silver refining.

I was always a little leary of adding copper to the cells - it is one of the things I am trying to get rid of by sending the anode bars (contaminated with copper) through the cell.

But, I can't ignor the advice of those who have much greater experience than I.

After dissolving the copper in minimal nitric, is it then added to the electrolyte before adding the electrolyte to the cell?

Can I use clean copper wire for this?

If you look at the photos of the cell to the left in the above photos, one can see where later in the growth the crystals appear much longer and are shaped more beautifully than the ones that formed close to the cathode at the beginning of the cell start up.

This would tend to agree with the copper presence contributing to the formation of better crystal structure - No copper at start up (clear color of electrolyte being the indicator) = smaller more globular crystals. 

Copper presence increased with cell operation from the copper being dissolved in the anode bars (the blue color of the electrolyte being the indicator) = better crystal structure and better looking crystals.

I'll give this a try next time I start my cells from scratch.

How about adding some copper to the stainless steel cell? Would the results be the same as for a cell in a beaker with a graphite cathode?

kadriver


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## butcher (Nov 14, 2012)

Kadriver, 


Do not put your meter leads in the electrolyte, it will just damage your meter leads, and no reason to do this, it will not tell you anything.

The meter has its own battery on ohms scale so yes you will get an ohms reading but it is also creating a cell between the leads dissolving one meter lead and plating to the other, also the reading will not be accurate, as all you will be reading is the new resistance of this mini cell of your meter circuit using the meters battery as the power supply, your resistance reading of the electrolyte would not be accurate, how close together the meter leads were in the solution would also effect the meters reading.

You can measure resistance of your cell From the anode and cathode where your power supply normally hooks up to the cell, this will tell you what the electrolyte resistance is, but will give you the resistance you may have from anode wire to graphite block connection also, you can also calculate cells resistance with Ohms law.


Ohms law, you can calculate the resistance, voltage, amperage, or wattage of your cell, by knowing two of these values we can calculate the others.

E=Volts
I=Amps
R=Ohms
P=Watts

IxR=E
E/I=R
E/R=I
IxE=P
P/I=E
P/E=I
Series circuit (current same, voltage divides).
Parallel circuit (voltage same current divides).

Lets look at a series circuit, two resistors (1ohm) and (2ohm) in series, with a 10volt power supply.

Drawing this on paper and following the math with me will make this easier to understand and follow.

With two resistors in series in the circuit the resistance adds, 1+2=3ohms total resistance of this circuit.
(The resistance here can be your cells).

Since the current is the same through both resistors (cells here), using Ohms law we can calculate current we know resistance and voltage (E/R=I) so (10 volts / 3 Ohms = 3.33 amps), so here we see the total current our power supply sees is 3.33 Amps.

This current is the same for both cells in a series circuit, but the voltage divides between these cells in the series circuit, so lets calculate the voltage of each cell.

First cell or resistor (one ohm): (IxR=E) (3.33 Amps X 1 Ohm = 3.33Volts), so this cell drops 3.33 volts (of our 10 volts from the power supply).

Second cell or resistor (two ohm): (IxR=E) (3.33 Amps x 2 Ohm =6.66 Volts), so this cell drops 6.66 volts of our 10 volts from out power supply.

Total voltage 3.33 +6.66 = 10 volts

Now what is the wattage of this circuit (IxE=P) (3.33 amps x 10 volts = 33.3 watts). so we see we are generating a lot of heat in this circuit, our power supply would have to be big enough to handle this heat, and we could choose a fuse for the circuit to protect our power supply.

So from this we can see if we know two of the values we can calculate the other with ohms law, example you measure the voltage drop across your one cell is series with your meter, and you measure the circuits current with your meter, now we can calculate that cells resistance using ohms law, from our example above, (E/I=R) (6.66 Volts / 3.33 Amps = 2 ohms), so we did not have to measure the resistance of this cell with our meter we can calculate it as 2 ohms.

Now try this same thing again changing the values of the two resistors in series (cells) say both cells at 2 ohms, using the same 10 volt power supply, and practicing using Ohms law, see how the values of the circuit change.

I will not discuss a parallel circuit at this time.


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## element47.5 (Nov 14, 2012)

Let me throw something out that might be a piece of consideration. I believe you are correctly diagnosing the problem. But, as you disconnect everything from your cells which is the proper procedure while taking your resistance readings...do you not have in effect a battery? You have two dissimilar metals/materials immersed in an acid electrolyte. That is a battery, is it not? And as such, might it be influencing your resistance readings? And if so, your voltage readings, too, are influenced by the battery action, though much less. We all recognize that there are many, many factors influencing the relative performance of the two cells, but any battery action, if present, would certainly influence power-off resistance readings. Voltage readings, much less, as the force of the power supply would swamp any such action. 

I like the ideas of the series light bulb(s) and separating the cells such that they are not in series, but be aware that running off your 3.3 volt supply, the series bulb could drop the volts available to the cell below the threshold for proper functioning. A series bulb or a fuse, is otherwise definitely a good idea. Thus a fuse as a protective item would be good. This is just good general practice for any circuit you are going to run and leave unattended. There is probably something or other inside the PC power supply that has the same function, but an external fuse is nice because you see if it blows easily. (or, measure it w/your ohmmeter if it isn't a glass fuse) 

And as butcher said, sticking your meter leads into the solution is NOT a good idea.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 14, 2012)

kadriver said:


> I have read the addition of copper makes for better crystal growth.
> 
> Steve mentions it in his DVD on silver refining.
> 
> ...


I usually combined the copper nitrate with the silver nitrate while making up the cell solution but it shouldn't make any difference when you add it, as long as it's mixed in well. I always used solid copper wire. It takes about 8.3ml of 50/50 nitric to dissolve a gram of copper. Whether stainless or carbon cathodes, it would work the same.


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## Palladium (Nov 14, 2012)

When i started my first cell in glass with a carbon cathode like you i didn't observe copper as being needed. When i switched to the bowl i found that if i didn't have at least a touch of copper the crystals formed a sheet on the bowl surface. This sheet is hard to break apart once it builds some thickness and doesn't break apart easily and once it does you have to crush the little sheets to get them into crystals which winds up being nearly dust. With copper they just seem to release so much easier. The reason they formed the tight sheets instead of crystals long and stringy i attributed to my lower voltage setting (1.5v) and my higher current. It didn't matter to me because it was going into a bar form and not sold as crystals anyway. It also helps with the problem of the crystal growth reaching the anode and shorting out because of the fluffiness of the crystals being packed instead of loose. When i want fluffy i go up to 2.2 volts.


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 14, 2012)

Palladium said:


> I use an adjustable voltage and amperage supply for my silver cell so i can adjust each parameter differently. I've seen the difference in voltage and amperage across a wide range of deposits. I would assume the attributes you are observing are nothing more than that given all other parameters in the equation are the same. You mentioned one was depositing faster than the other. This can only occur with reduction at the cathode and electron transfer, hence the current differences that have to exist to see what you are seeing. This can be caused by any number of variables ever changing from the solution concentration, the fabric used, the wire size, graphite cathode size and density, even the distance the voltage travels from the transformer to the cell. That's what seems to disappear with the stainless bowl setup and the cathode being the whole bowl. I set my voltage at about 2.2 volts and jack the current up as far as it will go. Thing runs like a Ferrari!


I have always used a standard 1 knob, 2 meter plating rectifier and probably always will. I have never used a power supply of the type you are using. I can understand setting the voltage and letting the amperage float, depending on the resistance in the system, or visa versa, i.e., setting the amps and letting the voltage float. What I can't understand is how you could adjust both at the same time to any desired level, since the resistance in the cell is constant. This seems to defeat Ohm's law but I'm probably confused about the way it works. What actually is happening?


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## element47.5 (Nov 14, 2012)

> This seems to defeat Ohm's law but I'm probably confused about the way it works. What actually is happening?



Ohm's law shall not be defeated! 

GSP, you are actually letting the amps float; as a plating rectifier is not regulated (either constant current or constant voltage) BUT...there is implicit voltage regulation because such a rectifier probably uses a variac, which places the line voltage across a coil and has a variable tap which takes a "subset" shall we say, of the line voltage and then feeds that into a diode (to change AC to DC) The "regulation" implicit in such a simple scheme is that the line voltage is modestly controlled at 120 VAC and does not sag as one draws more current from it...until the limits of a ckt breaker or fuse are reached. So, if you were to place the tap (the knob of the variac) at 5% of full rotation, you'd be taking 5% of 120 = 6 volts AC, then rectifying it. That typically is thru a half-wave recto = .707 times input AC. About 4 volts. Are you turned all the way (actually, just shy of all the way) to the left on your adjustment knob on your rectifier?


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## goldsilverpro (Nov 14, 2012)

element47.5 said:


> Ohm's law shall not be defeated!
> 
> GSP, you are actually letting the amps float; as a plating rectifier is not regulated (either constant current or constant voltage) BUT...there is implicit voltage regulation because such a rectifier probably uses a variac, which places the line voltage across a coil and has a variable tap which takes a "subset" shall we say, of the line voltage and then feeds that into a diode (to change AC to DC) The "regulation" implicit in such a simple scheme is that the line voltage is modestly controlled at 120 VAC and does not sag as one draws more current from it...until the limits of a ckt breaker or fuse are reached. So, if you were to place the tap (the knob of the variac) at 5% of full rotation, you'd be taking 5% of 120 = 6 volts AC, then rectifying it. That typically is thru a half-wave recto = .707 times input AC. About 4 volts. Are you turned all the way (actually, just shy of all the way) to the left on your adjustment knob on your rectifier?


I understand all of what you're saying. When plating (I include the silver cell in this category) with a rectifier, though, the current is set and the voltage floats. Each type of plating bath has a specific cathode current density range (usually given in amps per square foot) for proper operation. If you are out of this range, the plating deposit quality will suffer. You calculate the surface area of the parts you're plating and then set the amperage to give the proper current density, usually at the mid point of the required range for that particular type of bath. The thickness of the deposit is then controlled by the plating time. Usually, during the cycle, the amperage requires a couple of slight readjustments and the voltage will slightly vary. I assume that, with a constant amperage PS, you would only have to set the amperage once and it would stay constant. That, of course, would be a slight advantage, since you wouldn't have to tinker with it. You could set the amperage and forget about it until the timer went off.

In Ralph's post, he said he set the voltage at 2.2V and then cranked the amps to max. I take that to mean he could either set it at 2.2V - 5A, or, say 2.2V - 10A. I just don't see how that is possible, if the resistance remained constant. Something has to give.

On another subject, with the electrolytic sulfuric gold stripper, you have a totally different deal. At first, it only takes a slight amount of voltage to max the amperage. As the gold strips and copper is exposed, the resistance increases, probably due to the formation of oxides on the copper. To maintain adequate amperage, you have to keep turning up the voltage. When 100% of the gold is stripped, the voltage could be maxed and the amperage would still read zero. With this system, you don't want constant anything if you want to maximize production.


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## Palladium (Nov 14, 2012)

Here's the type power supply like i have chris.http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-10A-10AMP-3010D-Pro-Digital-DC-Power-Supply-Precision-Variable-Adjustable-/330804337453?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d05799b2d

When i crank it all the way up i back off just a hair i can use the fine tuning to bring my voltage back down. When i peak it out on amperes the voltage will rise also to the high side, but when i don't peak it it's very adjustable. With my carbon cathodes this wasn't possible for some reason, but with the bowl i don't have that problem. I can't explain it as all i can say is what i observe.


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## g_axelsson (Nov 14, 2012)

I guess what Ralph means is that when he turns the amps up to max he is talking about a current limiter.

Almost all power supplies have a maximum current and voltage. Whenever one limit is reached the other variable is regulated. A power supply where you can regulate both voltage and current is perfect for both types of cells.

If you want a constant current for deplating, set the current limit and just turn up the voltage to max. Whenever the current goes below the limit set, the voltage will rise, keeping it at the set current limit. When the resistance in the cell goes too high the voltage will be at maximum while the current drops below the set limit. Eventually the current will drop to zero when the resistance goes to infinity.

If you want a constant voltage for a parting cell, set the limit and turn up the current to max. The voltage will stay at the set limit unless the resistance drops too low in the cell, then the voltage will drop while the current stays at max. Eventually the voltage will drop to zero when the cell is short circuited.

None of the above examples breaks ohms law.

Btw element47.5, when rectifying AC the voltages rises. With an ideal rectifier it grows with a factor 1.414 (=1/0.707) but in practice a bit less (voltage drop in diodes) so 6 VAC gives 8.5 VDC.

/Göran


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## butcher (Nov 14, 2012)

A car battery charger as a power supply would be a constant voltage power supply, if used to charge a battery or run a silver cell the current would be determined by the cells resistance, so the amperage reading could go from a few amps or up to the point of tripping the battery chargers overload circuit breaker (to protect the battery charger from burning itself up). 

Lead acid batteries require a constant voltage (just a little higher than the cells voltage), and variable current to charge, the current varies with cells resistance. (The car battery charger is a constant voltage power supply).

Nickel cadmium battery's are just the opposite they require a constant current charger, but the voltage varies with the charge of the cells. (The NiCd battery charger is a constant current battery charger or power supply).

Power supply's can be unregulated, or regulated for voltage, or for current, or regulated for both voltage and current.

The computer switching mode power supply Kadriver is using is a voltage regulated power supply (so the voltage is regulated to a certain value but the resistance of his cells will determine current until the power supply overload limit is reached.


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## element47.5 (Nov 15, 2012)

Goran, what you say is true only in the case of a four-diode bridge. It is not true for a full-wave rectifier circuit using two diodes and a center tapped input and is definitely not true for a half wave rectifier using a single diode. 







I could link you to any number of articles that show the output voltages for common rectifier circuits, but this isn't an electronics forum.


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## kadriver (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow, a person could get an education on electrical theory here if he wasn't careful!

Ok, I will not put the probes in the electrolyte. Thanks for saving my equipment from unnecessary damage.

The sealant on the new graphite electrodes should be set today, but I may wait until tomorrow to tear everything down.

I have a lunch appointment, then a talk is being given at the college on the theory of "free will" by one of the psych professors - I won't get much done today.

Thanks to all who have posted here, I have learned much.

Kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 15, 2012)

Here is a shot of the new graphite cathodes - same size and shape, same diameter wire leads.

Soda can for reference.


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## metatp (Nov 15, 2012)

Kadriver,

Great thread. I had this wool like fast growth once in my cell. I didn't like it, so I broke it down and started over with new electrolyte. All went back to normal after that. Never found out what cause it. I just thought I did something wrong. I now use a stainless steel cathode. I could not be happier. Never had any of these issues since.

Tom


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## kadriver (Nov 16, 2012)

I am hunting for the right stainless bowl right now - after hearing the testimony of other silver cell operators, I am sold on the idea of using stainless.

Also, I am going to start adding some dissolved copper as per GoldSilverPro and Palladium - they swear by it and I believe them that it makes for better crystal structure.

The silver grown in the cells is pictured below.

kadriver


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## element47.5 (Nov 16, 2012)

Really odd they are so different. 

You're looking at restaurant supply places for those drop-in stainless containers, available either square or round?

They are pretty cheap, $10-$20. Sometimes you find them at junkstores. Of course, they'll probably want more for them than if you buy them new. 8)


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## kadriver (Nov 16, 2012)

What I would like to use is a round stainless bowl, that way the distance from the anode bag and the walls of the bowl will be relatively uniform.

I'll keep my eye open for a stainless bowl at the thrift stores when I make my rounds.

Here is a shot of the rather large crystals grown from the cell on the left - very beautiful with bright shiney surfaces.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 16, 2012)

I reconfigured the cells with the new graphite cathodes - using the old electrolyte (since it already contained some copper).

I did dissolve 33 grams of pure silver crystals in a little nitric and used that to fortify the used electrolyte to compensate for any that was removed when harvesting the silver from the cells.

I mixed the old and the new electrolyte solutions, filtered, and then filled the cells to ensure equal densities in each cell.

Each cell appears to be producing indentical silver on the cathodes.


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## kadriver (Nov 16, 2012)

The voltage and resistance readings are still not very equally divided between the cells - and as pointed out earlier, they may never get equal due to too many variables when configured this way (wired in series).

The current cell readings:

Left; Volts = 1.53 DC, r = .317

Right; Volts = 1.78 DC, r = .305

At least the cells are producing the same crystal structure now.

kadriver


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## MysticColby (Nov 16, 2012)

maybe add more water to the cell with lower resistance so as to increase the resistance? seems like it's not tackling the problem, but rather dealing with it's consequences.


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## butcher (Nov 16, 2012)

kadriver, 
I love your work on the forum, it is vey useful, and helpful, keep up the good work, I like your car also.


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## element47.5 (Nov 16, 2012)

I'll second butcher's motion. Great work, ka!


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## kadriver (Nov 17, 2012)

Palladium said:


> Here's the type power supply like i have chris.http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-10A-10AMP-3010D-Pro-Digital-DC-Power-Supply-Precision-Variable-Adjustable-/330804337453?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d05799b2d



I have placed my order for this power supply. My next step is to get a stainless bowl.

Kadriver


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## its-all-a-lie (Nov 17, 2012)

kadriver said:


> What I would like to use is a round stainless bowl, that way the distance from the anode bag and the walls of the bowl will be relatively uniform.
> 
> I'll keep my eye open for a stainless bowl at the thrift stores when I make my rounds.
> 
> ...




Have you thought about selling some of these big crystals on ebay? The ones i have saw have sold for double and sometimes even triple spot. I know you make a decent premium on your bars but if you can make a little more profit and have to do less work, well, just seems like the logical thing to do.


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## kadriver (Nov 18, 2012)

I've got some of the large crystals set aside for that purpose - thanks!


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## butcher (Nov 18, 2012)

Jokers and Aces,

Just doing some thinking and thought I would share my thoughts:
Many factors can affect an electrolytic cell and its operation, temperature, electrolyte conductivity, electrolyte contamination with other metal ions, or some contamination which may passivate the electrode (chloride in a silver cell), resistance, voltage, electrode surface area, anode to cathode distance, and other factors.

Let’s say we wanted to run our silver cell at a constant current, the cells resistance will change over time as the operating conditions in the electrolytic cell change.

One way we can maintain a constant current in our electrolytic cell, is to vary the voltage to the cell (to maintain current) as the cells resistance changes,(electrolyte, anode to cathode gap, temperature Etc.) this can be done manually or with a feedback circuit or automatic regulator circuit, (adjusting the voltage to the silver cell to maintain the electrolytic cells current).

(The light bulb in series can help here), As the lamps filament will change resistance with temperature (actually silver cells resistance(and current changes), effect the lamps brightness which effects lamp temperature), the lamps temperature or brightness changes the resistance of the lamp, which changes the voltage to the cell, when the lamp is wired in series with our cell, thus the lamp is regulating the silver cells current by changing the voltage to the silver cell, over a wide range of changes in electrolyte resistances, or other factors like anode to cathode gap, temperature change, and so on.

A cold lamp filament would act as basically as no resistor at all, thus dropping almost no voltage to the silver cell.
A dim lit bulb would act as a low value (ohm) resistor which would drop a little voltage in the lamp. This in turn would lower the voltage to the cell.

A brightly lit bulb (filament heated becomes a higher value resistor) thus dropping more voltage in the lamp, and supplying the electrolytic cell with even less voltage.

What makes the lamp change brightness and thus resistance is changes in the silver cells resistance.

If the silver cell is shorted the lamp will be full brightness.

If the electrolyte resistance is low ohms the bulb will be lit more.

If the ohms or resistance in the cell increases the bulbs light (resistance) decreases.

As the silver cells resistance falls( lowers) its current would tend to try to rise, but here the lamp would light brighter, the lamp being more heated, the lamps resistance changes to a higher value, regulating voltage to the silver cell (thus regulating silver cells current) (the total current in the circuit remains the same).

The lamp in series acts as a current regulator for the silver cell, by automatically changing voltage to the silver cell, with the silver cells resistance governing what the lamp does.

As the silver cells resistance falls( lowers) its current would tend to try to rise, but here the lamp here would light brighter, the lamp being more heated, the lamps resistance changes to a higher value, regulating voltage to the silver cell (thus regulating silver cells current) (the total current in the circuit remains the same).

As the silver cells resistance rises its current would tend to try to lower, the lamp filament is not as bright and cools the lamps resistance decreases, giving the cell more voltage thus raising the cells current to the maintained level.

Different lamps can be used for different parameters.

Example:
Let’s say we wish to run a silver cell at 5 amps, and we use our lamp in series.
(The figures and numbers below are just to explain the concept and are bogus if trying to operate a silver cell, they were chosen to make the math simple).

Remember Ohms law:
E=volts
R=Ohms
I=Amps

Ohms law Formula:
E/R=I

Example 1: 
In this series circuit our lamp is almost off (no ohms resistance), our silver cell is 2 Ohms:
E/R=I
10 volts / 2 Ohms = 5 Amps
Here the lamp resistance is cool and is basically no resistance, no voltage is being dropped in the lamp, and our silver cell has 10 volts to the cell, its resistance is 2 ohms its current is 5 amps.


Example 2:
Our cell changed resistance its resistance is now 1 Ohm.
The lamp would light half bright as its filament warmed, the lamps resistance is now 1 Ohm, the voltage would divide in this circuit, the lamp dropping 5 volts and so our cell voltage is 5 volts, total current is still 5 amps through our cell.

Resistors in series add.

1 Ohm (resistor lamp) + 1 Ohm electrolytic cell = 2 ohms total circuit
5 volt drop in lamp + 5volt drop in cell = 10 volt total
10 volt / 2 ohm = 5 Amps in the circuit

In series the current is the same, but voltage divides.

Example 3:
Now our cell shorts out with silver crystals bridging the anode to the cathode, our cells resistance has dropped to zero ohms, and zero volts drop, this heats our lamp more and it becomes brighter, the higher heat in the lamps filament creates more resistance in the lamp, the lamps resistance rises to 2 ohms, the lamp now drops the full 10 volts of the power supply (but our power supply is protected actually it sees no change it still delivers 10 Volts and 5 Amps).
Cell zero Ohms + lamps 2 Ohms = 2 ohms total in circuit.
Cell zero volts + lamps 10 volt drop = 10 volts
10 volts /2 Ohms = 5 Amps

So we see our current remains the same 5 amps through our cell regulated by a simple lamp, the lamp also giving us an indication of what is happening in our circuit, and the lamp protects our power supply.


If the resistance of this cell went back to normal or lamp would go back to normal dim, the bulb will go bright and dim with changes in the circuit, the cells resistance controlling the lamps brightness and the lamps brightness controlling or maintaining the circuits current (or limiting the maximum current allowed.

Here is a lamp regulator they use for a similar purpose:
Current regulating lamp:
http://www.andycowley.com/valves/var/barr/index.html

Other thoughts:
another way we can change the cells current (or resistance) is to change the anode to cathode gap, further apart would create more electrolyte resistance (and thus decrease the silver cells current).

(Note as crystals build up in the silver cell the anode to cathode gap is actually getting closer together thus increasing the silver cells current, and lowering its resistance).

Decrease in the cells resistance increases cells current, and also raises the electrolytic cells temperature.

Wow what a balancing act this sounds like, it seems you would have to be a Joker to run silver cells, or at least a Joker to try and explain my thoughts.
Hopefully you Aces out there can understand my thoughts here.

:lol:


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## kadriver (Nov 20, 2012)

Nice write-up butcher, I gained much from it.

What I take from it is that the light bulb would regulate the voltage in the cell automatically.

The reason I added a second cell and wired in series was to increase the amount of silver I could produce per unit of time.

The new graphite cathodes made a difference and the crystals are much better, but they are not equal, and I don't think they can ever be equal because of all the variables.

until I get my new power supply (ordering one just like Palladium recommended) and my stainless steel bowl set-up, I am thinking of reconfiguring by removing the series wiring, and adding a seperate power supply to the second cell so each cell has its own power supply as per goldsilverpro's recommendation.

When I do this, I will add the 1157 light bulbs in the circuit for each cell like you recommended butcher.

Here is a shot of the cells taken this morning - notice the difference in the shapes of the crystals in each of the cells.

I wonder what would happen if I reversed current flow?

kadriver


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## element47.5 (Nov 20, 2012)

This has been a very interesting thread, and as usual, your great pix make clear what is happening, at least from the observation standpoint if not from the understanding viewpoint. I suspect that at some level, you have a "cascade" type of situation where the "spear" crystals reach out towards the anode faster than the "brain" crystals and this produces a smaller cathode-to-anode distance which reduces the voltage across the spear(?)-forming cell. It is also possible that the DC voltage from the master negative lead to ~~1/2 the voltage total has power supply ripple (ripple = residual AC impressed or superimposed on the alleged DC output) across it that is different from the ripple that occurs from the midpoint to the positive lead. In other words, one cell is acting something like a capacitor and smoothing out power supply ripple. But I will readily admit that theory is something of a stretch. It's also possible that you have some teeny amount of current leakage from the ground of the power supply (which is electrically the same as the negative lead) around your dish and around your beakers into the electrolyte. Again, I'm skeptical of this notion as well because your procedure is fastidious and I suspect your beakers are dry and your catch dish is dry and such current would be down in the microamps. What causes one cell to favor spears versus brains is the mystery, of course. All we really know with perfect certainty is that the current MUST be the same in both cells--and that is down to the electron....and that the operating time is the same. 

I don't recall this having been discussed---have you weighed the respective crystal yield one cell against the other?


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## kadriver (Nov 20, 2012)

I did not weight the crystals when I harvested earlier in this post.

Since I am going to run it all back throught the cells a second time (with seperate power supplies for each cell), I just threw all the silver into a single container for further processing.

I did save out some of the larger "spear" type crystals and I plan to sell them on Ebay once I get some 5 troy ounce bars made up.

When I harvest these growths I will wash and dry seperately and post the weights of silver from each cell.

I do know that the "brain" looking cell seemed to consume the anodes a bit quicker thean the "spear" cell did.

kadriver


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## qst42know (Nov 20, 2012)

I wonder if one of the cells is acting something like a filter capacitor?

Which cell is nearest the positive lead?


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## kadriver (Nov 21, 2012)

The positive lead is attached to the anode of the cell on the left.

The cathode is then connected via a short lead to the anode of the cell on the right.

The cathode is then connected to the negative lead to the power supply.


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## element47.5 (Nov 21, 2012)

I still think (if we care about solving this Thanksgiving mystery) we need the individual cell yield weights to advance our speculation. 

I started off thinking otherwise, but now I'm thinking that the spears cell lowers cell resistance (and thus voltage) faster than the brain cell as the spear reaches out towards the anode. The brain cell's crystal growth I reckon has a greater surface area. I have to believe that the rate of crystal growth (all else being equal, which it isn't, necessarily) is a function of current-per-unit-of-surface area; current density, if you will. Whatever it is that favors the spear-type of growth at the instant the cell decides to be a spear grower continues to favor spears as the silver deposits. Likewise for the brain cell. But I would like to know which cell produced more mass. I believe the brain cell tends to favor (again, for reasons unknown) widespread, slower, even growth, while the other cell starts growing spikes and those have a tendency to focus crystal growth along the blades.


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## qst42know (Nov 21, 2012)

Could you swap the individual cells position in the circuit to see if the crystal deposit switches as well.

An oscilloscope could tell you more of what's going on.


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## element47.5 (Nov 21, 2012)

> An oscilloscope could tell you more of what's going on.



Lacking a scope, perhaps an AC reading of the highest + volts lead and the cell-interconnect lead might do the same thing. Yes, read AC while supplying the cell DC, to measure the ripple across the lower (0 volt to 1.65 volt) cell versus the upper (1.65 volt to 3.3 volt) cell, also the AC reading across both cells.


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## kadriver (Nov 27, 2012)

I do not have everything needed for the sainless set-up yet.

I harvested the silver from the cells and I am going to make bars from the pure silver crystal.

I used some of the crystal from the cell on the right (from photos above) to make fresh electrolyte.

The electrolyte was very sight pale yellow as it dissolved with no traces of blue or green - the silver looked to be very pure as it was a crystal clear and as clean as fresh water when I was done.

I started the cells again to run the silver crystal from the first harvest back through the cells a second time.

Here is what the cells look like after two days of operation.

Notice that one cell has some copper in it and the other does not.

The voltage on the left was 1.48 volts DC across the cell.

The voltage on the cell on the right was 1.83 volts DC.

Both cells are making some beautiful crystals.

Seems like the optimum voltage for those long fat sword looking crystals is about 1.7 to 1.8 volts DC.

kadriver


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## kadriver (Nov 27, 2012)

A little over 26 troy ounces of pure silver crystal from the second running of the cells in this post.

I dissolved some of this to make new electrolyte - the solution was clear and bright with no traces of color.

kadriver


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## MysticColby (Nov 29, 2012)

yellow in electrolyte = PGM contamination?
freaky that one turned blue while the other doesn't - I'm guessing the anodes were from different batchs?
as usual; pretty sparkles!


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## element47.5 (Nov 29, 2012)

Might be interesting to fashion an anode (or...cathode) much more dowel-like in shape--like a pencil---if you were most interested in forming the most dramatic crystals you could, versus straight-ahead yield. The idea being to try to create a much more linear and singular current path through the electrolyte versus the many many paths that exist between your "block" anode and your "block" cathode. 

You might have to harvest (or bust up) your crystals more often to prevent shorting the supply..OR...place the container on a lab jack and continuously lower the container. And...you might have to have some kind of drive to lower the anode into the electrolyte very very slowly as it was consumed. But imagine creating multi-ounce hungus crystals. I bet you could sell those for comparatively serious money. 

Just a thought experiment.

Going even further, suppose you operated your cell in an environment where the electrolyte was subject to an acoustic modulation....vibrated. Either ultrasonically, or, with a speaker driven by an oscillator. I can't predict what the "ideal" frequency would be but I have little doubt that you could influence the crystal growth and at some frequency, the crystals would be absolutely unique, otherworldly. 

This is all just in case you don't have enough variables to deal with, LOL. But seriously...I believe you could produce some utterly unbelievable forms...and they'd be in solid silver...and you'd be the dude to do it, my friend.


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## kadriver (Dec 18, 2012)

I got in the new adjustable power supply from my daughtern as a gift. All I can get right now is .4 amps flowing. The pressure (voltage) is set at 5 volts and each cell is getting about 2.5 volts each.

I am still looking for a nice stainless bowl - my wifes Kitchen Aid Mixer bowl looks awfuly tempting.

I have asked her to keep an eye out for one, she has already threatened me with servere penalty if hers goes missing (she knows me well after nearly 34 years of marriage).

The crystals growing in this batch are magnificent - the biggest and fattest that I have seen so far.

kadriver


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## Palladium (Dec 18, 2012)

With the stainless bowl i learned i had to increase the anode surface area to get the amps to rise without the voltage.
Looking good!


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## butcher (Dec 18, 2012)

kadriver,
You mean to say she would not trade you that ole stainless steel bowl for some beautiful crystal silver earrings?


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## kadriver (Dec 18, 2012)

Butcher,

she is pretty strick with her kitchenware. She is spoiled rotten with all the jewelry she gets. Shes got a box somewhere full (at the bank). I don't even get to see the key. Unfortunately I don't think the earrings you suggested would move her significantly to get her to release the bowl to me.

kadriver


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## butcher (Dec 18, 2012)

That ole box of scrap jewelry in the bank does not compare to those nice silver crystal earrings, which were grown by Love by her husband’s own hands and hard work.

She must be very strict with her kitchenware, of course she probably knows she can have the earrings and keep her bowl too.

I do not blame her for not letting you have the key to her jewelry box, she knows you would most likely just put her stuff in that melting dish.
:lol: 

Those are some very beautiful silver crystals in your cell, kind of like Christmas ornaments.


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## MysticColby (Dec 18, 2012)

that power supply looks nearly the same as mine! only difference is that mine has analog readings, has a high/low button, and goes up to 5 amps / 10 volts. Definitely the same brand. It's very easy to use


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