# What chemical will precipitate gold from ammonium chloride



## tom341 (May 23, 2007)

I am looking at another way of making an electrolytic cell using Ammonium Chloride (NH4CL) and using an UNGLAZED planting pot as an ion curtain to take gold into solution, and I am not sure what chemical will precipitate the gold from ammonium chloride. Does anyone know? :shock: :roll:


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2007)

Tom,

In the setup you described the gold never goes into solution. It percipitates as the cell is run. The silver and base metals will go into solution. You don't need any membrane or ion barrier in this set up. Just bag the anode (gold) in a nylon bag and collect the powder as it separates from the solubles. The cathode is graphite.


Steve


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## tom341 (May 23, 2007)

Hello Steve, 
Good to here from you on this. The reason for this question is that I am looking for a cheap manor of deplating gold from pins and gold plated items using a stainless steel SHAKER BASKET as an anode and graphite as a cathode. I guess that I was missing the point that the other metals would go into solution and the gold would stay as a solid. I see other systems for sale that are very expensive and claim to deplate as well as refine the gold, and as best as I can tell the electrolyte is ammonium chloride.


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2007)

tom341 said:


> I am looking for a cheap manor of deplating gold from pins and gold plated items



Tom,
I would venture to say that everyone on the forum would like to find something like this. I'm constantly trying to find ways to lessen the processing costs while decreasing the recovery time and preparation cycle.



tom341 said:


> I see other systems for sale that are very expensive and claim to deplate as well as refine the gold,



The refining part usually comes after from the recovery stage. Even in systems where the gold is removed effectively, the reaction solution tends to foul the purity enough to the point where an additional refining step is mandatory.

Steve


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

What you're talking about are the Shor patents. 

I haven't read them in awhile but, if I remember right, there are 2 different formulations of ammonium chloride covered in 2 different patents. The stronger formula dissolves everything, including the gold. The weaker one dissolves everything except for the gold. In both, the silver is kept in solution as an ammoniacal complex

If you don't use the semi-permeable membrane in the weaker formula, what happens at the cathode? Do the base metals plate out or, are they prevented from doing so by the complexes formed? If the base metals do plate out, you would have a mess that you couldn't live with. If this happens, the membrane would isolate the cathode from the metal solution so nothing plates out. In the case of the stronger solution, you have to have the membrane to keep the gold from plating out.

I have also wondered, for a long time, about using an unglazed flower pot for this. The problem is, how do you seal the drain hole? I think I would try fiberglass cloth and the waterproof 2-ton epoxy from WalMart - about $2. Don't get the 5 minute epoxy because it's not entirely waterproof. Also, the putty type waterproof epoxy would probably work.

In any case, the membrane wouldn't hurt.

Probably, the first application of using a membrane for this sort of thing was a "fizzer cell". This was a cell using a "porous cup" in the production of gold chloride for use in a Wohlwill cell. The Simplicity cell uses a porous cup (Google). In one of the Shor patents, I believe that it is mentioned they are available in up to a 1 gallon size

Like I said, I haven't read the patents in awhile. When I get the chance, I'll read them and post a summary here. I have been planning, for awhile, to post a complete breakdown of the patents and the secrets of the Shor Simplicity machine but, I haven't gotten around to it.


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## tom341 (May 23, 2007)

THX Steve,
I am going to pursue this further and if anyone else is interested in this let all the others on the form know what you fiend. ..THX..<*\\\><..TOM


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

tom341,

I, for one, would be very interested in your results.

Can you give links as to these deplating systems that are for sale? I'm not sure that any chemical system is available that would eat the gold and not the pins, except for cyanide, iodide, bromide, or the sulfuric stripper. I would definitely be interested in knowing if there was anything else out there. I've been thinking about this problem for 40 years.


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## tom341 (May 23, 2007)

THX Goldsilverpro, 
“You are right”, this is the exact system I was talking about. I actually own one of these systems but it would be nice if a person could retrofit the system to do pins and plates and alike. And be something the everyday Joe could afford. If we could only figure out the chemicals and a good retrofit to do electronic scrap instead of karat gold items. . OH and about the hole in the pot would a rubber stopper work?


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

Yes, I think a rubber stopper would work very well. Sometimes, I get so egg-headed that I don't see the most obvious solution.


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## jimdoc (May 23, 2007)

How about bondo for filling the whole?


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

I'm not sure that Bondo is waterproof. I think it is only water resistant. I could very well be wrong. I used to use it to fill blemishes on my exterior carved signs but, I always covered it with 4 or 5 coats of paint.


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## tom341 (May 23, 2007)

THX GUYS,
I guess a person could just buy the chemicals from Shor, but the pot does appear to be ceramic unglazed. I called the people at Shor and priced that ceramic pot and when he told me it would cost me over $500.00 I kindly thanked him and hung up. OUCH the pot I have is a grayish white in color, but if I can make this work man it would help so many people on this form to do electronic scrap fast and efficiently.


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

$500 is absurd. I don't think that Shor wants you messing with this thing and they're discouraging you. The cup they're using probably cost only $20 - $30.

Most of the best U.S. ceramic labware is made by Coors - the beer company. They used to make ceramic beer bottles and that's how they got into it. I would bet that the porous cups used by Shor are made by Coors. Here's a Coors catalog and price list. You may have to buy the stuff through a distributor. The porous cup listed, P-1/2-BC, is the right pore size. The biggest one they list, 2"X4". cost $30.
http://www.coorstek.com/resources/8510-1097LabwareCatalog.pdf
http://www.coorstek.com/resources/8510-1032_Labware_Pricelist.pdf

They come in different pore sizes. I think the patent said that the pore size has to be .5 microns, or less.


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2007)

Here's two of Shors karat cell patents. One uses a salt and acid for the electrolyte with a membrane, the other uses no membrane with ammonium chloride.
The acid version puts the gold into solution, the ammonium chloride version doesn't.


Steve


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## goldsilverpro (May 23, 2007)

The Shor patent of the ammonium chloride electrolyte that dissolves the gold also is #5,009,755. It has 1 to 2 pounds of ammonium chloride per gallon, 2 to 4 ozs of NaCl per gallon, and .25 fl.oz. of hydrogen peroxide per gallon. The anode is bagged and the anode solution is separated from the cathode by a membrane. I think this patent is what the Simplicity machine is based on but, I need to read the Simplicity instructions again to make sure. I may be wrong. The Shor patents are quite confusing and I haven't spent that much time analyzing them. The catalyst is probably the peroxide. The gold can be dropped with any of the common sulfite compounds. The Pt group metals stay in the anode bag.


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## mike.fortin (May 23, 2007)

LazerSteve--anyone besides me report to you about their having difficulty downloading or opening your second Schor patent acrobat file? The first one worked great. The one put up by GSP worked great. Thanks for any clues or assist. Mike.


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2007)

Mike Here it is again. I tested it just now and it worked all the way to the last page.


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## mike.fortin (May 23, 2007)

LazerSteve--thanks for your reply. It downloads about 428K and then tells me there is an error in the file and it cannot open it. I don't know what to try next. Could there be some setting in my own machine I'm tripping over at 428K? I'm open to ideas. Thanks. Mike.


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## lazersteve (May 23, 2007)

All,

Anyone else having the same problem with this file?


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## jimdoc (May 23, 2007)

I just downloaded them fine and I am on a PII with Windoes 98 and DSL.


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## tom341 (May 24, 2007)

Wow what a help you have been Goldsilverpro.
I will call COORS in Denver and order the P-1/2-BC next Friday when I get paid. It appears that there are 8 in an order for the $30.00 cost. I know the Area code is in Denver Colorado because most of Colorado was area code 303 and it changed here in Pueblo Colorado about 5 years ago from 303 to719 so that would put it in Denver or Golden. I have the chemicals from my Shor machine but I have never used it yet. But I would much rather put this together and retrofit it with a design most people here on the form can use at a reasonable cost. The precipitant from Shor looks like salt in consistency, now with the idea of some sort of Shaker basket to put electronic scrap into made out of Stainless Steal this might acutely work. When the amps drop to zero or there about shake the basket to get moor pins or plates to make contact with the SS basket and wait for amps to drop until you just don’t get conductivity any more. The beauty of this is that the Gold will not only be recovered but refined at the same time without the dangerous nitric acid fumes, and the use of safer chemicals without the HCL and sulfuric acids are also a plus.


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## tom341 (May 24, 2007)

Hay Steve, 
You have also been a great help here maybe with moor people working on this we will be able to refine our scrap much faster THX all. <*///><..tom


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## goldsilverpro (May 24, 2007)

Tom341,

Hope you read this before you order.

I think those Coors prices are full retail. I've found that you can get them cheaper through a distributor.

The P-1/2-BC is actually the pore size. I just found the 2"X4" one (#60495), in the right pore size, on sale for $7.14. And you can buy them individually.

http://www.macbicnj.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=online&Product_Code=Coors60495

Here's a bunch of Coors stuff on sale. I notice there are some Buchner vacuum funnels on the list at good prices.

http://www.macbicnj.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=online&Category_Code=coors

That whole Macbic site is nothing but clearance items. Great prices. Here's Coors spot plates for less than half price. The one pictured is not the one being sold. The one on sale has 12 depressions. Spot plates are the very best way to do stannous chloride tests.

http://www.macbicnj.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=online&Product_Code=34276-0160


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## tom341 (May 26, 2007)

goldsilverpro,

Thank you for all your help I will be ordering the ones on sale at the site you referred me to. I don’t know how you fiend this kind of information but hay don’t stop its great. I do have to weight until this Friday 6/1/07 that’s pay day for me I am a D.A.V. and I only get paid once a month. ..THX...<*\\\><...TOM


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## aflacglobal (Jan 26, 2008)

Thread cont :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=5486#5486


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## Irons (Jan 26, 2008)

goldsilverpro said:


> The Shor patent of the ammonium chloride electrolyte that dissolves the gold also is #5,009,755. It has 1 to 2 pounds of ammonium chloride per gallon, 2 to 4 ozs of NaCl per gallon, and .25 fl.oz. of hydrogen peroxide per gallon. The anode is bagged and the anode solution is separated from the cathode by a membrane. I think this patent is what the Simplicity machine is based on but, I need to read the Simplicity instructions again to make sure. I may be wrong. The Shor patents are quite confusing and I haven't spent that much time analyzing them. The catalyst is probably the peroxide. The gold can be dropped with any of the common sulfite compounds. The Pt group metals stay in the anode bag.



According to the patents, a small amount of Gold Chloride is added to the electrolyte as well to prime the electrolyte. The catalyst envelope also contains a chemical that generates a small quantity of Peroxide to act as a depolarizer. Once the cell gets going, the anode generates more.

Here's the instructions on how to operate the cell:

http://shorinternational.com/simplicityInstr.htm

Some of the older patents have expired and some are still enforceable, so be aware about using this information.


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## Irons (Jan 26, 2008)

goldsilverpro said:


> $500 is absurd. I don't think that Shor wants you messing with this thing and they're discouraging you. The cup they're using probably cost only $20 - $30.
> 
> Most of the best U.S. ceramic labware is made by Coors - the beer company. They used to make ceramic beer bottles and that's how they got into it. I would bet that the porous cups used by Shor are made by Coors. Here's a Coors catalog and price list. You may have to buy the stuff through a distributor. The porous cup listed, P-1/2-BC, is the right pore size. The biggest one they list, 2"X4". cost $30.
> http://www.coorstek.com/resources/8510-1097LabwareCatalog.pdf
> ...



The trick is having a bag around the anode that allows the Gold ions to pass while retaining the solids and ions that would contaminate the Gold bearing solution. The porous cup prevents the Gold and other metals from plating out on the cathode.


From what i've read, the .5 Micron cup will block Gold ions from migrating but it may need some experimentation to determine if ions with smaller diameters will be blocked.


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## paveprince (Feb 8, 2008)

lazersteve said:


> Tom,
> 
> In the setup you described the gold never goes into solution. It percipitates as the cell is run. The silver and base metals will go into solution. You don't need any membrane or ion barrier in this set up. Just bag the anode (gold) in a nylon bag and collect the powder as it separates from the solubles. The cathode is graphite.
> 
> ...


does the powder leak into the solution? do the contents of the bag need to be further refined ? is this powder pure gold?


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## docone31 (Jun 30, 2008)

I have the shor machine, and they shipped it with the cup in pieces.
I am trying to find a replacement as they are really giving me the full rash. I even called them to have them send me back the one I sent. They had told me to use silicone seal to fix it.
At any rate, I called Coors. They are really nice to deal with, however, their porous cups are much larger than I can use.
Has anyone found the supplier for that cup? 
It is 10.5mm X 30mm.
I am at a dead end on this one.


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## Wyndham (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't know what Coors is selling but as a potter I make, as an intermediate step, a porous material called bisque. 
You see when a pot is make from wet clay first it is air dried then fired to 1800 Deg f or bisque temp, just like a flower pot but..... it's any size and wall thickness you want. Round works best for me cause my wheel goes round and round. It can be made out of a white clay that should have no contaminates like iron is in the red clay pots. If anyone is interested, tell me the size and wall thickness and we can test it out and go from there. Please let me know any other info that might help. Wyndham


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## aflacglobal (Aug 13, 2009)




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