# Recommended setup to process 350oz of scrap jewery per week



## xenfasa (Dec 15, 2010)

Hello,

I live in Central America in a country where there is no real gold refinery. Most people here send any gold scrap and nuggets to the US to get refined and import refined gold when needing. 

Through a lot of networking I have found a large jewelry maker that buys/imports 150oz of gold per week and have also found enough scrap sellers that can provide me with enough scrap jewelry to refine to meet the 150oz a week. There are other opportunities to refine gold in this country as there are mines in the area too sending gold away to the US to be refined.

Most of the jewelry around here is of the lower karat values... 12k 10k or even lower.
Small nuggets may be fairly available for us too.

I have read a lot and I have only done some refining on a small home scale to get familiar with the processes to learn and hoping to scale up. But my current setup I have been playing with is tedious and would not scale so easily. But before I start investing a ton in real equipment, I was looking for more opinions so I do not make any wrong/bad decisions and waste a ton of money.
I am also connected with the largest University and chemistry professors here that are on the team here.

Now, to my question
What is the best or recommended method/process to refine about 350oz of scrap low karat jewelry per week?

I have considered the Shor Simplicity electrolysis refinery since I would not need the acids and it works better with jewelry but I would need 3-5 of them running non-stop. I have also seen people no happy with it... Plus I could probably make my own setup/device cheaper if I wanted to go that route and knew what I was doing. I understand Aqua Regina method works better with higher karat gold pieces and the inquarting method maybe better for lower karat quantities which is what we would have more of. 
I wonder if I should try to fabricate some of my own equipment and or just splurge and get a real ready made setup. 
I would prefer to keep expenses low initially and reinvest in the better automated equipment later... Then my questions would be which equipment is worth it.

I would like to keep start up expenses less than $10k but ideally closer to less than $5k to be producing our first refined gold at a decent quantity. We could spend more once the biz starts and we see it all working according to plan.

Any suggestions/opinions would be much appriciated.
I would even consider consultation proposals.

Thanks,
Xen


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## 4metals (Dec 15, 2010)

I know many refiners who to this day refine karat scrap in aqua regia with only a hood and 5 gallon plastic pails. Each pail will hold approximately 100 ounces of karat for dissolution. The key to using 5 gallon pails is to melt your gold together into bars with the intent being silver content under 8% ideally. Then the gold can be granulated and digested in aqua regia. To do this properly you will need a gas melter, a basic fire assay setup, a hood and for the sake of those cute green Costa Rican tree frogs, a scrubber.

Fire assay on karat materials is pretty straight forward and the methods are detailed on on this forum. It will allow you to batch jobs together and pay on assay. Larger refining lots but less labor. If the silver is too high in your material you mat have to inquart with silver but that process is also well documented here. 

I can see you getting it done for under 10,000 but under 5,000 will be hard to do. This method will only require 1 days work to refine the material and time for the individual assays.


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## samuel-a (Dec 15, 2010)

xenfasa said:


> Most of the jewelry around here is of the lower karat values... 12k 10k or even lower.





4metals said:


> with the intent being silver content under 8% ideally



I think it will be next to impossible for him to reach, he will have to own 150+ Oz of 24K just to raise gold content...
The catch is... electrolysis set-up will demand it as well...


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## 4metals (Dec 15, 2010)

I've seen low karat without high silver. If the karat was lowered with CuZn alloy inquarting may not be required. As is so important in running batch lots in this business, you have to know what you are starting with, for that reason a small fire assay capability will pay off.


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## samuel-a (Dec 15, 2010)

Good Point 4metals

assay assay assay


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## goldenchild (Dec 15, 2010)

I was gonna say the 5 gallon bucket idea too but 4metals beat me to it. It was suggested to me in the past by... well... 4metals


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## nickvc (Dec 16, 2010)

I must admit I'm in full agreement with 4metals and had a post ready but I preferred his suggestions especially the assaying to determine the silver content.The only thing I might add to his list is a decent vacuum pump and filter set up, not cheap but speeds things up and worth the investment.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

And you plan to sell your refined material to whom?. What are their minimum fineness requirements?. A simple inquarting/fluxing rig for less than $1,000 maybe all that you *need* to start. 

Do you plan to do the 350 Oz once a week or 50-75 Oz per day?. It all goes back to: Who do you sell your gold to and at what price and fineness required?.

The complete fire assay lab will cost more, and certainly you'll need to be crafty to get it all done for less than $5,000. But... you'll probably have to accept the buyer's assay...so if you buy well, refine fairly, and accept the buyer's assay you do not *need* a fire assay lab to start (but it is a good nice thing to have, so get one soon!).IMHO.

If you use the scratch stone test for determining approximate karat and your margin under spot for buying is ample enough, you can pass on the fire assay lab to begin with. Now if the margins are tighter and/or you distrust your out's assay for fine material, then you need an assay lab, but that'll probably be a minor problem in comparison. You can't be negotiating/fighting with your out every time you sell a bar to him, so you'll have to accept to get minimally screwed on average, accept his assay values for your fine, and accept it as a "cost of doing business". :shock:

Frankly most of the time you can do the "reverse fire assay technique" TM by HAuCl4: Keep a sample of your fine, and only in case your buyer's assay comes out completely out of line with what you expect, then do the fire assay on the sample you kept. 99 times out of 100 you end up accepting the buyer's assay that come consistently within 2/10,000 of yours anyway, if you are doing business with a honest out. 8)


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## xenfasa (Dec 16, 2010)

wow, thanks for all the great comments. This community is an unbelievable resource of info.
I am studying all of your comments and doing more reading and research according to all your suggestions. I will report back with more details, clarification and answers to your follow up questions very shortly. Meanwhile, I just wanted to let you all know you have been a big help. so thanks.


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

I knew a guy in the '80's who refined for a collector and never did any assays, he just accepted the collectors numbers, and all of his work was from 1 guy. Weekly he returned his out-turn less expenses and when he got around to cleaning up the chlorides and papers he was over 100 ounces short. What most likely happened was the collector "forgot" to apply the correction factor to the assays which added up to gold that was never really there. The assayer the collector used always provided uncorrected assays. 

This industry today, and apparently in the '80's as well, is full of people who will take advantage of you. Be sure, assay yourself. It costs more up front, true no debate there, but I can't see the down side. Another benefit is it helps you track your own accountability, if you're doing quantity that matters as well.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

4metals said:


> I knew a guy in the '80's who refined for a collector and never did any assays, he just accepted the collectors numbers, and all of his work was from 1 guy. Weekly he returned his out-turn less expenses and when he got around to cleaning up the chlorides and papers he was over 100 ounces short. What most likely happened was the collector "forgot" to apply the correction factor to the assays which added up to gold that was never really there. The assayer the collector used always provided uncorrected assays.
> 
> This industry today, and apparently in the '80's as well, is full of people who will take advantage of you. Be sure, assay yourself. It costs more up front, true no debate there, but I can't see the down side. Another benefit is it helps you track your own accountability, if you're doing quantity that matters as well.



Did the collector make the processor cover the 100oz?

That is expensive and hurts.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

Everything must be put into perspective too. If you are really doing $400,000-$500,000 of gold per week, spending $5k-$10k in a modest assay lab is peanuts in the long run, and will quickly pay for itself like 4metals says (in peace of mind at least). Now if you are buying at 5% discount under spot, you have plenty margin for "errors", "thefts", and etc. I did repeat business for a long time with a "wise guy" that routinely pressed for his assays 5-7 parts per 1000 too rich to be accepted...I accepted and praised his "fine assaying skills", but kept paying him 3% under spot...Result: He was happy "screwing" me, and I was happy with my 2.3-2.5% on his volume that he would have taken to a competitor...yawn.

edit to add: You must watch your buy side, and have enough margin. Most screw ups come from that side, not from the sell side.


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

It put him out of the business. So he didn't make good on the gold but it changed his profession. He just shotted the bars and never sampled so if it had gone to court he would have had to pay.

Umpire rules and splitting limits have been around for a long time. And for good reason.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

It is also a good idea to work on a per batch basis: After every batch all the accounting must be done. Inquarting and parting is great for this because it is fairly quick to isolate all values, and there isn't much gold trapped anywhere.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

4metals said:


> It put him out of the business. So he didn't make good on the gold but it changed his profession. He just shotted the bars and never sampled so if it had gone to court he would have had to pay.
> 
> Umpire rules and splitting limits have been around for a long time. And for good reason.



That was a hard lesson to learn and I hope it hit's home here on the forum. Keep up with what you have coming in and what goes out and make sure you adjust for the difference.


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

That is a valid option as well but if the 350 ounces comes in as 25 lots the labor is considerable. A well done setup will enable him to process larger lots efficiently, running 25 individual lots from receiving to fine gold melt is labor intensive. But cheaper to start. 

If that is the approach chosen, individual lots, then inquarting with silver based on incoming weight is the easy approach. He will quickly need to learn the art of the silver cell as he will be getting close to a kilo of silver a week out of the karat. 

I hope there is consideration given to properly dealing with the waste acids. Just thinking about those Costa Rican tree frogs again.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

Right. Or start with scrap copper or zinc or brass as the added metal for inquartation till he accumulates enough silver from the karat scrap. Silver is currently too expensive (IMO) to be buying it just for inquartation purposes. :idea:

He can evaporate the copper/zinc nitrate solution in the sun in a closed container, and when all the water is gone distill/recover the nitric acid from the crystals with some wood borrowed from the frogs. :lol:


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes running in 25 small lot's is a heck of a lot more labor intensive and a lot more possability of losses if he has a lack of experience. His best bet would be to keep up with is returns and find out where he has discrpenecies in his figures and adjust his processing figures on this. Processing the amount he is talking about can put him out of buisness real quick if he dosen't analyze what his returns are. He needs to slow down and learn what he is doing in small lots till he has his process down pat.


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

HAuCl4 said:


> Right. Or start with scrap copper or zinc or brass as the added metal for inquartation till he accumulates enough silver from the karat scrap. Silver is currently too expensive (IMO) to be buying it just for inquartation purposes. :idea:


 :roll: I think its time to change your lightbulb


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

?


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

Nah. My lightbulb is perfectly fine, and that's the correct approach for low karat scrap as the OP has stated his material is. That you guys don't like it isn't my problem. :lol:


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

HAuCl4 said:


> He can evaporate the copper/zinc nitrate solution in the sun in a closed container


 :idea: Now theres the idea of the century.........you must work for the U.S. congress.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > Right. Or start with scrap copper or zinc or brass as the added metal for inquartation till he accumulates enough silver from the karat scrap. Silver is currently too expensive (IMO) to be buying it just for inquartation purposes. :idea:
> ...



Obviously you are out to get me. You'll need to try harder Watson. Obviously I meant a closed system.:lol:


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

HAuCl4 said:


> and that's the correct approach for low karat scrap as the OP has stated his material is


700 ounces of silver = 3 gallons of solution for the silver
700 ounces of copper = 11 gallons?
Dude go back to bed or something.
And no einstein I am not out to get you.This is a perfect example of why it is IMPERATIVE that you write what you mean!And don't ASSUME that others will automatically know what you are insinuating.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm sure you 2 geniuses prefer to spend $20,000 in the 700 Oz of silver to inquart that stuff. If I had your money, I'd burn mine!. Next!. :lol:


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

?


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## dtectr (Dec 16, 2010)

These last comments [edited: except for the last 8 or 9] address something that's called "The E Myth", "E" standing for "entrepreneur". Many people believe that a successful entrepreneur is a person with a good business idea & the ability to carry it out. MYTH

The fellow who wrote the book of the same name said every successful business is made up of 4 parts:
1) craftsman
2) manager
3) accountant/bookkeeping 
4) marketing professional.

Many GREAT businesses fail because the owner is personally lacking in one or more of the above. A wise entrepreneur will take a realistic self-analysis & to learn his own strengths & weaknesses (and be honest with yourself - If you suck at bookkeeping, telling yourself that you will learn once the biz gets rolling is unrealistic). He will also be working 80-90 hrs/week to make things happen - developing new abilities just won't happen.

The solution is do what you're good at, and hire (or find) someone else to do the others. For example, my wife is a sweetie, but with bookkeeping she's a Nazi, which is good, since wasting money is deadly to a new business.

From a guy who learned the hard way. FWIW


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > Barren Realms 007 said:
> ...



I takes exactly one day in the Costa Rican sun to get a crust of crystals, and several buckets of near distilled water. You must use the right super simple setup though, which I don't plan to describe to you now!. 8)


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

?


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

HAuCl4 said:


> I'm sure you 2 geniuses prefer to spend $20,000 in the 700 Oz of silver to inquart that stuff.


Big difference........I can recover the gold PLUS THE 20K ...If you cannot then that is your problem.That fact remains,that using copper or ANY other base metal to inquart with is frowned apon....reguardless of how much it costs to inquart it.
If you do not have the capabilities to do this(as dtectr has stated) then send it to someone who can.


> You must use the right super simple setup though, which I don't plan to describe to you now!.


Seriously dude......check that lightbulb.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

dtectr said:


> These last comments [edited: except for the last 8 or 9] address something that's called "The E Myth", "E" standing for "entrepreneur". Many people believe that a successful entrepreneur is a person with a good business idea & the ability to carry it out. MYTH
> 
> The fellow who wrote the book of the same name said every successful business is made up of 4 parts:
> 1) craftsman
> ...



Finally a serious post!. Welcome to the jungle. 8)


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

?


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

mic said:


> HAuCl4 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure you 2 geniuses prefer to spend $20,000 in the 700 Oz of silver to inquart that stuff.
> ...



You are funny. I'll give you that much. I don't need the 20k to begin with!. And I don't care how much anyone frowns upon anything. Dude!. :lol:


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

Listen HAuCl4,
I am NOT going to do this all day.What you are doing is childish and counterproductive.I am pretty sure that dtectr's post was not backing you up.I know dtectr and I doubt that post was in your favor.The bottom line is this......*If you cannot process the material the correct way,then you need to find someone that can(AS STATED IN DTECTRS POST)*.There are many different ways to process it,but inquarting with copper is not one of them.If you insist on thinking that way,then I suggest you keep those suggestions to yourself.It is disheartening to spend time helping others only to see another member making such suggestions,and then insisting that "that's the correct approach for low karat scrap".This conversation needs to end here,until a moderator can get here.Until then it needs to stop.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

mic said:


> Listen HAuCl4,
> I am NOT going to do this all day.What you are doing is childish and counterproductive.I am pretty sure that dtectr's post was not backing you up.I know dtectr and I doubt that post was in your favor.The bottom line is this......*If you cannot process the material the correct way,then you need to find someone that can(AS STATED IN DTECTRS POST)*.There are many different ways to process it,but inquarting with copper is not one of them.If you insist on thinking that way,then I suggest you keep those suggestions to yourself.It is disheartening to spend time helping others only to see another member making such suggestions,and then insisting that "that's the correct approach for low karat scrap".This conversation needs to end here,until a moderator can get here.Until then it needs to stop.



You drew first blood. And you are wrong too!. I (and several clients of mine) have inquarted with copper/copper scrap and refined more gold in 2 years than you are likely to see in a lifetime. If I had to do it over, I'd use zinc. It's cheaper. I'm tired of bowing down to morons like you in this forum. I know a lot less than people like 4metals or Harold or Lou. But definitely I'm not taking any more crap from aggressive idiots such as you.


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

Why don't we just try and answer this guy's question? 

Gold Chloride is right, the silver to inquart 350 ounces of roughly 50% assay (or less) material is upwards of $15,000. That's more than his equipment budget. But if he does process individual lots (and we are assuming 25 lots) 350/24 = 14 ounces per lot so he only needs enough silver for the first lot. Much cheaper. As his silver inventory builds up he can process bigger lots.

Evaporating in the sun is a good cost effective method, I know of guys in Texas that do it. Costa Rica has to be hotter down near the equator. I wouldn't evaporate the acid though, I'd drop the precious metals with copper, then raise the pH to 2 and drop the copper with iron. Then the sun could do its thing. We're only talking 15 gallons to evaporate a week. A solar drier can handle that easily. I live in the wrong place, no tree frogs and hardly any sun all winter.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

4metals said:


> Why don't we just try and answer this guy's question?
> 
> Gold Chloride is right, the silver to inquart 350 ounces of roughly 50% assay (or less) material is upwards of $15,000. That's more than his equipment budget. But if he does process individual lots (and we are assuming 25 lots) 350/24 = 14 ounces per lot so he only needs enough silver for the first lot. Much cheaper. As his silver inventory builds up he can process bigger lots.
> 
> Evaporating in the sun is a good cost effective method, I know of guys in Texas that do it. Costa Rica has to be hotter down near the equator. I wouldn't evaporate the acid though, I'd drop the precious metals with copper, then raise the pH to 2 and drop the copper with iron. Then the sun could do its thing. We're only talking 15 gallons to evaporate a week. A solar drier can handle that easily. I live in the wrong place, no tree frogs and hardly any sun all winter.



Thanks 4metals. You tell them.


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

There are 2 sides to every argument, until I became active on this forum I never imagined how hard it can be to get nitric acid in some locations. I've always ordered it in multiple 55 gallon drums. Then I come here and read how guys are making their own because they can't get it. 
That was a surprise to me.

So to be fair to both sides, and to help our refining friend in Costa Rica make a better decision, inquarting with copper uses up a lot more nitric so if that is an issue in his neck of the woods than silver inquarting makes sense. If it is plentiful than copper makes sense. (With the understanding that life will get easier and chemical costs will go down when he accumulates enough silver to inquart with his own silver.) 

If a few members who process gold filled scrap would speak up here we would hear that their feedstock is pre diluted with copper and zinc and they have no choice but to use nitric. 

But the current price of gold seems to heal all wounds.


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## Oz (Dec 16, 2010)

I was typing this (slow as I am) and noticed that 4metals has replied similarly. My reply is enough different that I still thought it worthwhile to post. I apologize for my slow typing skills.

OK, this thread has become about being right and petty arguments. There is seldom only one “right” answer. 



HAuCl4 said:


> Right. Or start with scrap copper or zinc or brass as the added metal for inquartation till he accumulates enough silver from the karat scrap. Silver is currently too expensive (IMO) to be buying it just for inquartation purposes.



Perhaps I read this wrong but HAuCl4 was suggesting only to start with base metals other than silver until the required silver was accumulated through processing, not as a permanent solution.



4metals said:


> I've seen low karat without high silver. If the karat was lowered with CuZn alloy inquarting may not be required. As is so important in running batch lots in this business, you have to know what you are starting with, for that reason a small fire assay capability will pay off.



Now if 4metals is correct here little if any added metal may be required for inquartation. 

I would stay away from zinc or zinc alloys in inquarting for toxicity reasons. Copper is a heavy consumer of nitric (3.4 times greater than silver) so I prefer silver for inquartation. However I can see circumstances where the cost of buying silver for inquartation is greater than the cost of consuming excess nitric by using copper. As soon as you have accumulated enough silver from processing, of course it would be expedient to switch to using the silver instead. 

Having said that, if 4metals speculation is correct that this may be a low silver karat gold alloyed with Cu and or Zn, you cannot avoid the need to remove them. I would do my best not to add to that problem though.

Just one mans opinion.


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## Oz (Dec 16, 2010)

4metals said:


> If a few members who process gold filled scrap would speak up here we would hear that their feedstock is pre diluted with copper and zinc and they have no choice but to use nitric.


If accountability on lots was not an issue, then using gold fill scrap for inquartation is ideal! You get twice the work done for the same nitric consumption.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

After the sun leaves you with a crust of nitrates, mild calcination leaves you with a crust of oxides and all the NOx can be bubbled in water and remake most of the nitric. If you cement the copper with iron, you can reuse the copper to inquart again. Zinc is a lot harder and not economical to recover as metal, so let's leave it out or make clean sulphate for animal feeds. Been there, done that. That's right mic.:shock:


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## Oz (Dec 16, 2010)

You will find that bubbling your Nox into H2O2 is much more efficient than water.


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## goldenchild (Dec 16, 2010)

Couldnt xenfasa simply start out by melting all the gold, shotting it and then going straight to AR? This was suggested to me by a reputable member. With all the lower karats in the mix this will be plenty of copper to offset the silver. You WILL get some undigested corn flakes but... you can then either A. take the silver cloride produced, reduce it back to metalic silver and then use that to inquart the undigested material obviously digesting with nitric again or B. use the recovered gold to inquart the undigested material to make it a high karat for AR digestion. Either way you would use minimal nitric and build up the silver hoard everyone is fighting about.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 16, 2010)

It requires a lot more skill and care in processing, but what you say goldenchild is doable. I prefer the speed and simplicity of inquarting and fluxing, and I'm sticking with that judgment unless extreme fineness is a requisite. The amount of acids and volumes used is similar though for the OP's material.


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## Harold_V (Dec 16, 2010)

This thread was brought to my attention by a reader, due to insults being exchanged. (I had been following anyway!)

The next guy that comments at the expense of another is going to get two weeks to think things over. If you guys can't talk with/to one another without commenting on dim bulbs or other less than complimentary thoughts, you still have much to learn. Do not expect less than flattering comments (which you may think harmless) as being acceptable, yet resent receiving like comments in return. 

I've said my piece. * I will have zero tolerance for any further insults. * 

I don't know anyone that is more set in their ways than I am. I know what worked for me, so I expect it will work for others. However, circumstances aren't always the same. How about you guys try looking at this thread from the perspective that there may be a few variations on a preferred process, all the while allowing success, with the ultimate result being inquarting with silver, as it is accumulated? 

It goes without saying, in a perfect situation, using silver is the preferred method----but when one is forced to work within a budget----you do what you must in order to achieve the ultimate goal----that of refining the required amount of gold. 

When you give this some thought---isn't that what each of you has done? Didn't each of us start out with nothing----slowly adding to our lab or operation? It was true for me, for sure. 

Harold


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

I hope we didn't scare this guy off, this thread is a valuable topic for many on this forum. Lets keep on topic, listen to the questions asked and try and make this thread a useful tool for our members.


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## Oz (Dec 16, 2010)

4metals said:


> I hope we didn't scare this guy off, this thread is a valuable topic for many on this forum. Lets keep on topic, listen to the questions asked and try and make this thread a useful tool for our members.


Indeed, if xenfasa proceeds with this, no matter the process he chooses, many could learn from hearing his results good and bad. Never miss a learning opportunity just because you think you know it all.

Please stay with us xenfasa and report your findings. We are not typically this unruly.


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

Oz said:


> Please stay with us xenfasa and report your findings. We are not typically this unruly.


Too true,there is much to be learned,and this bickering is very rare.


Harold_V said:


> The next guy that comments at the expense of another is going to get two weeks to think things over.


Understood,sorry,and thank you.


Oz said:


> Perhaps I read this wrong but HAuCl4 was suggesting only to start with base metals other than silver until the required silver was accumulated through processing, not as a permanent solution.


I reread it and you are correct,at least that is what I thought,until he mentioned the $20K dollars.Then I thought he was insinuating to purchase all of the silver at once needed to process all of the jewelry at once.That is what threw me off.If done in incremental lots,then I agree that a small amount of silver could easily be affordable,say 5-10 ounces to start,and reused until enough silver is reclaimed from the processed jewelry so the next lot could be larger than the previous lot.Therefore no base metals would be needed for inquartation at all.

Gold chloride,my hand is extended.The most important thing is that we remember that we are all human and capable of making a mistake,god knows I have made my share in that past.Now lets both of us put this nastiness behind us and move on with the processing.Sorry for the lightbulb comment.


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## xenfasa (Dec 16, 2010)

I think I am getting closer to a direction based on reading your comments.. plus have more details that may help.

I have a single seller with sufficient scrap 300-350oz
I have a single buyer wanting to buy 150oz per week

So the plans was/is to batch once a week and save a ton of labor.

I understand that inquarting is an easier process using less corrosive acids? Is that correct?
Are there other good reasons I should go that direction rather than AR?

I know buying extra silver is not in the budget but I also did not mention that I have at least 2 100oz bars I bought for about $600 each several years back for investment purposes.... Maybe it is time to dig them up and put them to use.

I have other junk silver and possibly other bars.. .but not sure how much I actually would want to melt.

Simple, efficient, less, labor, less chemicals and less equipment is better.. if it means me having to melt more of my silver. I can live with that.

So here is a math question for you inquarting gurus our there.
How much silver would I need to inquart 350oz of 10k scrap. Average maybe closer to 12k but I think 10k is a worse case senario.

Next question... what would you guess is the average amount of silver in 100oz of 10k scrap... Just wondering since collecting the silver would be a nice bonus income at this production level. Could I expect 5% or 8% or more of 10k scrap to be silver?
That would mean maybe around 17oz-25oz of silver per batch per week I get to keep.

I was not thinking inquarting as a serious option before because of having to melt hundreds if not thousands of ounces of metal...
I guess with the right furnace it should not be too much of an issue?
What kinda furnace would I need for such? Preferably gas. Is propane an option for such furnaces?

I agree with other posts here about doing my own assays. Any real serious biz person I feel would do such.
I was looking at this assay kit here.... Beginners Assay Kit for $1500. 
http://www.actionmining.com/bak.html
Is this enough to get me started? I think and hope it would be. Once the profits start rolling in, I can afford to invest in something better if necessary.
I will have 3rd parties verify my assays as well... if seller or buyer want. The main purpose would be to protect myself from getting ripped off by either side....... knowing what I have.. having assayed it myself.

thinking... of the assay process... I would melt a batch down. Do an assay to access gold content of the batch before inquarting.
Then inquart, ... purify a gold sample and assay the purified gold. In a perfect world the gold contents before and after would jive... doing calculations from the first melt... to arrive at a what the pure sample should be and actually is.

I am getting more excited as your feedback is helping me a lot....
any more comments with this new info I have provided?

Thanks again,
Xen


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## Palladium (Dec 16, 2010)

This might be a good read for you. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4789#wrapheader


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

xenfasa said:


> I have at least 2 100oz bars


 :shock: Very nice.You already have enough silver to inquart all of it.Lazersteve has a nice video on it http://goldrecovery.us/ .
Personally I wouldn't buy that kit.All of the info you need is here,and you can purchase pretty much everything you need from lazersteves store.Anything that you may want that he would not have,you could purchase from http://www.lmine.com and save a bundle.Problem solved.


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

Action mining starter assay kit is for assaying ore, what you need is simpler. You will need a furnace, they sell Vncella Kilns, I've used them and they are excellent. You will need a good analytical balance, this will cost the most unless your association with university chemists can find you a balance to use. Today the balances are digital but the old analog balances were accurate and most universities had them and possibly they can be had cheap. 

A good thread to read to set up a lab is on this forum. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4789

A gas melter can be made or had for a reasonable price, Action Mining has one which uses propane. There are inquartation calculators on the forum if you use the search function. Basically inquartation (the word) means to make in quarters. You want the gold to be 25% of the metal in the melt, or close. So you would add silver so the gold is 25%, in 12 karat gold the metals other than gold are another 25% so you will only have to add 50% in fine silver (or sterling if you have it)

Inquartation uses nitric acid. It is an easier process to clean up the gold but it will not produce .9995 gold by itself. It will provide a clean feedstock which aqua regia can easily clean up to make .9995 gold. It is a pre treatment which when followed by aqua regia equates to refining the gold twice. If you assay your gold and it is under 8% silver you can get similar results using one step as aqua regia. The silver and up to 1% by assay of the silver bar will be retained gold which is easily recovered in a small silver cell. 

You are correct, batching into 1 process lot a week will save a lot of labor and only settling on 1 assay is even easier. You should run multiple cups and run a proof assay as well. 

Read up on the previous forum threads and you will have a better idea of what you need to do. Then come back and ask more questions.

This can be a valuable thread if posters come back and edit out the bile we can make it a sticky for future reference.


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## xenfasa (Dec 16, 2010)

I just watched the mentioned videos and came back to the thread and it says to watch the videos... 

A premature question if you do not mind me asking and to clarify.
For the inquarting process... only the silver is dissolved in the Nitric Acid, correct?
Other base metals including the gold are still left after the silver solution is filtered out.

How do you then refine the residue metal and gold grains/powder to gold? You still need to use the regular Aqua Regia process?
Or is there another recommended way to do things?


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 16, 2010)

Hope this spreadsheet helps. And I will go remove my post's and someone can deleate if they want to since it seems they have no merit to this discussion.

Post's removed, enjoy!!!!

View attachment ArtsInQuartation.xls


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## Anonymous (Dec 16, 2010)

xenfasa said:


> For the inquarting process... only the silver is dissolved in the Nitric Acid, correct?


No,the only thing that is not dissolved(digested) is the gold.You can filter the gold powder per steves video,then proceed to refine it further,with AR and washes with Hcl and water.The solution left behind from the filter process must have the silver dropped out with salt or other method.


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

When you inquart with silver, all of the base metals and the silver and any palladium and some platinum will dissolve in the nitric solution. What remains will be 99% pure gold with some entrapped silver and some platinum if any was present. Additional treatment in nitric acid will clean it up a bit and it is possible using some fluxing techniques to get the purity to approach .999. 

This is why you were asked what purity the gold you will sell has to be. If the gold is to be re-cast into jewelry it can be alloyed as it is providing the platinum is low or non existent. 

It would be my guess that your client will want a minimum of .9995 fine gold. In that case, the sponge dissolves easily in aqua regia (and quickly) and the aqua regia refine step will upgrade the gold to what you need. 

I suggest you inquart some gold, dissolve it in half nitric acid and half distilled water, and filter and wash the solids (gold) then you can melt this metal and just add a few granules of potassium nitrate which will flux off some, if not all, of the impurities. When you see the purity you have attained by inquarting, you can show it to your buyer and see if it passes muster. 

It is not easy to assay pure gold. It is assayed by difference meaning the parts per million of all of the impurities are analyzed by instrumentation and subtracted from 100%. Generally if the gold bar has the pipe on the surface exposing beautiful gold crystals in the bar, it is purchased as pure. Try it, you may save yourself an entire step. This is easier to do with 10 to 20 ounces of gold rather than 1 ounce.


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## xenfasa (Dec 16, 2010)

more details.
The buyer is wanting the gold to make jewerly for his well establish jewelry business.

I am not sure of the purity he wants/needs yet but hope to have that answer soon.

If he can settle for what I am left with after one run of inquarting and no AR than that would be great

I also have questions into a local environmental attorney with experience in such that will make sure we comply with the laws on using such chemicals I will update when I have that info as well. (want the green frogs to stay green)

Once I have a basic list of major supplies I THINK I will need. I will post back to this list as well as were I think I might be getting them.

I will also be checking with my chemistry professor friends at the largest University here in Costa Rica to see what equipment they can either provide or let me rent/borrow/use or break  They will be involved in the project as well.

I think we have a great opportunity here.. with the scrap sellers sending to the US and the buyers importing from the US....
We save all that extra shipping and insurance and just process it all local.

I hope to start buying up some things in January and to have most all by the end of February. I may get quiet for a while here with the holidays coming up and traveling but I will be working on this and reading lots as I continue to create the perfect starter setup for this project.

Thanks again,
Xen


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## EDI Refining (Dec 16, 2010)

Xen 
reading your post, I highly suggest you start walking prior to running (refining 350oz per week)
Do what 4metals suggested in the post right above mine.


My question for you is. What accountability must you be at to be able to purchase the 350oz of scrap ?
What is your fine gold outlet, willing to pay you over spot for your finished product?


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

One thing you can definitely do is take one pass inquarted gold and alloy it up to return 14k and 10k alloys. Alloys sell for a premium and are easy to make, here in the states you can buy casting grain sized alloy which contains all of the required metals except the gold, in the proper proportions to make alloy. Just weigh out the alloy, add your gold, and melt it into bars. Assay to assure quality, and roll into flat stock, wire or whatever your buyer can use. 

The cost of the rolling mills will be offset by steps and associated costs saved in the refining process. An in house assay lab can assure its quality. 

Another benefit of only having to inquart and digest in nitric is you can make an effective fume scrubber which operates in an oxygen atmosphere and converts the nitric fumes which pass off as red fume into nitric acid which you can reuse. 

This process cuts down on NOx and recycles your chemistry. (Gold chloride will be very happy!)


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## 4metals (Dec 16, 2010)

If your buyer uses the gold in jewelry manufacture he also has other types of precious metal containing scrap such as polishing sweeps, bench filings, sprues from casting and possibly bombing liquid. If he uses 150 ounces of fine a week, the quantity of these wastes generated will be considerable. 

These materials are also valuable and your buyer will need to have them refined as well. Considering the material you will be getting is the cream of the scrap, other refiners who may be doing the other wastes may offer better rates to get what you have plans to process. Considering you are starting out with one source, it would be wise for you to plan on processing these other materials as well. Just to keep the competition down. 

Fortunately for you, all of these scrap-types have been discussed and are documented on this forum as well.


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## xenfasa (Dec 16, 2010)

edi gold said:


> Xen
> reading your post, I highly suggest you start walking prior to running (refining 350oz per week)
> Do what 4metals suggested in the post right above mine.


Right but the 150oz/week buyer says all or nothing and wants a contract.
I am looking for ways to walk and will test things on a smaller scale to make sure we have no hiccups.



edi gold said:


> My question for you is. What accountability must you be at to be able to purchase the 350oz of scrap ?
> What is your fine gold outlet, willing to pay you over spot for your finished product?


Buyer is paying just a small bit over spot with shipping and insurance. They do not NEED us but would be willing to do business locally with us if we can provide what they need for a similar price. They would buy at spot from us and be buying local.
We have verbal agreements with seller and buyer now but am working on getting at Letter of Intent from both.
All parties involved have great banking relationships including our side so we are exploring letters of credit or credit line with a mutual bank.
Worse case we do know others that can come up with hard cash to jump start things if we needed to do such.
In my perfect world the bank would give us a temporary credit line that would appease the seller and things will be settled when the buyer gets delivery. Only need $150,000 to float for a couple days or a week most. The first deal is the hardest until all parties are comfortable with it.
If we could pickup scrap in the morning refine in a day and deliver the next morning. There might not be a need to float anything if there is enough trust involved.

I also wonder if we could work it out so the buyer actually pays the seller for the gold then pays us the refining cut upon delivery...

But then the problem is security. Who ever possesses the gold is the one that should be taking the risk ideally and should have put up the cash sense gold is near cash. If stolen it can not be replaced. 

All things we have been thinking about and trying to work out. Refining is only a part of the whole deal and big deals do not come without a lot of negotiating and planning.

I am hoping to get a lot of these details worked out on the biz side before I do any major purchasing on refining equipment.

Xen


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 16, 2010)

The basic assay kit that Action Mining sells for $1500 lacks one very important thing - an analytical balance. Instead, they give you a comparator, which is a loupe magnifier or small microscope with a measuring scale built into it. In other words, you measure the diameter of the bead, instead of actually weighing it, and then use a funky chart to estimate the weight. Also, you have to estimate the ratio of silver/gold in the bead by color. Terrible system. To me, this is a monetary disaster waiting to happen, especially when dealing with something valuable like karat gold. You would probably be more accurate by going by the markings on the jewelry and eliminating the assay. A .0001g analytical balance would cost an additional $1500, more or less. It's a necessity.


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## nickvc (Dec 17, 2010)

Xen
I think you might have an easier route to financing the deal than you think.
If your seller is sending his scrap to the US for sale then he will have to wait until it arrives before getting payment or even part payment until it's melted and assayed. That should give you 24 - 48 hours of a window to refine his metals and sell to your end user. The same no doubt applies to your buyer no metal until the funds are sent.
If as you say both partys know each other and you can act as the intermediary basically brokering the transaction you can also get them to agree a date of fixing the price so you don't take a risk on the price movements which can quickly erode your margins.
If you set this up properly you should be able to process the gold within the window but bear in mind that you will not get all the gold out that you expect so allow 1% of the metal to be in the system,this is recoverable,it's not lost, but will need concentrating to be economical to recover.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 17, 2010)

4metals: Do you actually use oxygen or compressed air for the NOx scrubber?. Can you further describe your system?. Mine was a simple series of water tanks where the NOx and air was bubbled in the first tank and then the bubbles passed through the remaining connected in series tanks. It wasn't 100% efficient, but adequate for those small operations.

IMHO: After rereading this thread and the OP's intended operation and further information he has provided, I now think that the OP has a potential disaster on wheels in his hands, and that he'll do well taking things very slowly and carefully. Remember that you can lose a lot more than the gold or money in this business, specially in Central America. The technical part is the easy part. 

The OP has not stated yet on what specific terms/prices he intends to purchase the gold or sell it, so really we do not even know if he has a potential viable operation or a dream in the clouds. At this point I would bet his seller wants to sell at premium over spot and get paid in advance and his buyer wants to buy at discount and pay a week later...sigh. You haven't said either if the buyer is willing to buy at all times and the seller want to sell everyday. Sometimes when prices move one of your sides will not want to fix the price, etc, etc, etc x etc one hundred times more etc. *Ideally you want to put yourself in the position of not taking price risk/any risk and just collect your margin.* How do you plan to achieve that?.

mic: Don't give it another thought. Consider it all a testosterone release!. :lol:

p.s.: Do you see that pic below my moniker showing several bars of gold?. That is a stash that the Colombian authorities seized from a truck driver that was covering a route between Colombia and Venezuela. Nobody has laid claim to the gold yet. Who knows where the gold is at this very moment. It happened a few weeks ago. Do you think the owner is really thinking about how much nitric acid he's going to use in his next batch?.:lol:


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## 4metals (Dec 17, 2010)

gold chloride,

If dissolving silver in nitric, no chlorides, the fume will be NOx which will convert to HNO3 if the reaction is carried out in an oxygen environment. The nitric acid builds up in concentration to about 50% acid which can be reused. The nitric strength is measured via hydrometer. 


When the acid is drawn off it is replaced with distilled water. The system is purged with oxygen before the reaction is kicked off and the bubbles in the glass cylinder give an indication of flow rate. 

Obviously the entire system has to be air tight.

This system was called the Johnson system and more details can be had from Butts & Coxe.

And you thought I didn't recycle anything! :lol:


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## goldenchild (Dec 17, 2010)

4metals said:


> The system is purged with oxygen before the reaction is kicked off and the bubbles in the glass cylinder give an indication of flow rate.



I particularly like the use of the spray paint tool to simulate the BFRC :lol:


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## Palladium (Dec 17, 2010)

4metals said:


> This system was called the Johnson system and more details can be had from Butts & Coxe.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 17, 2010)

Palladium said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> > This system was called the Johnson system and more details can be had from Butts & Coxe.



There is a good joke in there some where but I am not going to touch it for fear of getting banned.. :twisted:


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## Oz (Dec 18, 2010)

4metals said:


> And you thought I didn't recycle anything!


Oh come on 4metals, you are a refiner! That is what we do, it is your vocation and nature to recycle everything!

Very nice drawing.


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 18, 2010)

That's a big Johnson!. :lol:


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## xenfasa (Dec 18, 2010)

Last time we checked with seller, it seemed we would be able to get the gold content at 90% of the value. I have a meeting today and will know more soon

The other thing I/we need to keep in mind is we know old time miners in the countryside that just dig for nuggets. The idea also is to provide them equipment to make their life more easy in return for selling us their gold. They are selling cheap now. So any refining operation for jewelry I hope, could help us process ore to some degree in the future but I realize some of the processing and equipment will be different.


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## EDI Refining (Dec 18, 2010)

xenfasa said:


> Last time we checked with seller, it seemed we would be able to get the gold content at 90% of the value. I have a meeting today and will know more soon



350oz a week @ 90% Accountability ? Thats big bucks, even if you just broker the material.


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## Lou (Dec 19, 2010)

Good lord, I'm moving down there! Need some help, just give me 5%


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 19, 2010)

Lou said:


> Good lord, I'm moving down there! Need some help, just give me 5%



Sorry you are too late I have already offerd to deal and didn't get a response.. 8)


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## rusty (Mar 21, 2011)

4metals said:


> gold chloride,
> 
> If dissolving silver in nitric, no chlorides, the fume will be NOx which will convert to HNO3 if the reaction is carried out in an oxygen environment. The nitric acid builds up in concentration to about 50% acid which can be reused. The nitric strength is measured via hydrometer.
> View attachment 1
> ...



Johnson System, Chapter 16 from Butts & Coxe.


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