# Copper cell



## rickzeien (Apr 25, 2020)

I am beginning some trials on electowinning copper. 

Here is a picture to get us started.

I will fill in the details including the cost of each item I used.


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## g_axelsson (Apr 25, 2020)

Oh yeah! A new series of posts from rickzeien, this is going to be good!  

Is it electrowinning (using an inert anode) or electrorefining (using a copper anode)?

What electrolyte are you using? It looks like copper sulfate.

Göran


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## rickzeien (Apr 25, 2020)

g_axelsson said:


> Oh yeah! A new series of posts from rickzeien, this is going to be good!
> 
> Is it electrowinning (using an inert anode) or electrorefining (using a copper anode)?
> 
> ...


It is for copper. I am using copper sulfate. 

I just rigged up a plastic box to hold copper shot (that's in the anode bag] and used a folded up piece of scrap titanium mesh to make contact. 

I ordered some used titanium anode baskets from a surplus plating equipment supplier. After I modify them, I will be using them as I move forward. 

Here is a picture of the copper button I made the shot out of. 

Weighs 278 grams.

The copper and silver pyramid are for a side by side comparison of silver and copper collector.

The long triangle bar was a trial pored of silver chrystal from a thumb cell I have. I am testing the idea of using a long angle iron mold. Then I can calculate the grams per inch or centimeters and cut off the appropriate collector metal weight for my smelting recipe

More later!




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## anachronism (Apr 25, 2020)

Looking good 8)


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## kurtak (Apr 26, 2020)

Awesome :mrgreen: 

I am excited 8) :mrgreen: :!: 

Kurt


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## rickzeien (Apr 26, 2020)

So I went to Walmart to buy some Muslin cloth. (Learned about it here on the forum) bought 2 yards for $22. Might have been a little less. 

While I was there the lady that help me find it told me she does sewing on the side. She made me 4 bags that were double layer with draw strings for $20. (She provided the material)

Next I taped off near the bottom and sprayed with Flex Seal. Cost was about a $ 1 per bag. 

I think the industry calls these Crap Trap bags. 

So about $ 6 per anode bag.



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## markscomp (Apr 26, 2020)

Funny, I pictured you as a lot of things. Geologist, Chemist, Metal Fabricator, Welder, Movie Producer, Photographer, Innovator, Businessman and Entrepreneur. But not as a Walmart shopper (maybe online purchases only when necessary) and the fact that you found a seamstress to complete your project is cool and is a compliment to your Statesmanship. very MacGyver esque!!! Nice looking "Cell" by the way.


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## rickzeien (Apr 26, 2020)

markscomp said:


> Funny, I pictured you as a lot of things. Geologist, Chemist, Metal Fabricator, Welder, Movie Producer, Photographer, Innovator, Businessman and Entrepreneur. But not as a Walmart shopper (maybe online purchases only when necessary) and the fact that you found a seamstress to complete your project is cool and is a compliment to your Statesmanship. very MacGyver esque!!! Nice looking "Cell" by the way.


I am not a very good Walmart shopper. I usually only buy 1 thing there when I go. I only buy what I came for then get out. 

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## rickzeien (Apr 27, 2020)

This is a video of the tanks I am using. I bought them from US Plastics in Lima, OH.

I paid $100.00 for plus shipping. 

It hold sc 10 gallons of electrolyte and has ample space for 1 anode plate (or a basket as I am going to try) and w cathode plates. (More on these in another post.

https://youtu.be/MLbGNkkbxeE

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## geedigity (Apr 27, 2020)

That was youtube was funny. After a second or two, I realized it wasn't going to be the video clip that I always enjoyed seeing of your progress on setting up your operation.


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## rickzeien (Apr 27, 2020)

geedigity said:


> That was youtube was funny. After a second or two, I realized it wasn't going to be the video clip that I always enjoyed seeing of your progress on setting up your operation.


I got lazy. Soon more videos from me. I promise. Just short clips. No feature length films. LOL Thanks for watching!

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## snoman701 (Apr 27, 2020)

You overpaid for your anode bags...by about $4 / bag IIRC

I know you are just testing, but good to know for the future. 

anodeproducts.com They have a low minimum too.


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## rickzeien (Apr 27, 2020)

Actually I bought 25 bags for 13.00 on Amazon. Flex Seal will probably come in at less than .50 cents. 

https://www.amazon.com/Cotton-Natural-Drawstring-Celestial-Gifts/dp/B004ZEAH1E

So all in about a buck a bag. But I wanted them that day. 


I will check out anodeproducts.com 

Thanks

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## Lou (Apr 28, 2020)

I'm more interested in an assaying the anode slimes you produce!

You've basically loaded up for bear/moose/elephant down there and I want to see if the juice is worth the squeeze!!


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## rickzeien (Apr 28, 2020)

Lou said:


> I'm more interested in an assaying the anode slimes you produce!
> 
> You've basically loaded up for bear/moose/elephant down there and I want to see if the juice is worth the squeeze!!


I know right. But I probably will not be posting the assay (s) any time soon. 

I sure you understand. 

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## Lou (Apr 28, 2020)

Hey, I didn't say I'd post 'em up, just that I'd be happy to assay them


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## rickzeien (Apr 28, 2020)

Lou said:


> Hey, I didn't say I'd post 'em up, just that I'd be happy to assay them


OK. Thanks Lou. Chat soon

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## markscomp (Apr 28, 2020)

one can never get to many opinions on metal 
at least that's what I read into the previous post
Mark


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## markscomp (Apr 28, 2020)

posts 

sorry


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## rickzeien (Apr 28, 2020)

markscomp said:


> one can never get to many opinions on metal
> at least that's what I read into the previous post
> Mark


Absolutely. Lou has given me lots of advise and guidance. He has also done a couple of assays for me as well as pointed me in the right direction for some of my equipment purchases. 

I find it amazing that Lou and others have shared the information and knowledge they have. 

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## kurtak (Apr 29, 2020)

rickzeien said:


> She made me 4 bags that were double layer with draw strings for $20. (She provided the material)



Rick

You do not need to "double layer" the Walmart muslin - it is a "tight" weave muslin to start with - which is why I use it

When I first started running my silver cell (many years ago now) I was getting my muslin from Joe Ann Fabrics

the weave was not a tight weave - I had to go to a double layer because with a single layer slimes would go through the weave & contaminate my silver 

That would happen when I lifted the anode basket out of the cell 

Then I found the Walmart muslin - MUCH tighter weave

Out of habit (using Joe Ann muslin) I doubled the Walmart muslin as well - what I found was doing so actually interfered with current flow (current ran less then normal) so I went to a single layer - current went back to normal & the weave is tight enough to hold the slimes

Kurt


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## kurtak (Apr 29, 2020)

As an added note to my last post

Doubling the Walmart muslin actually caused another problem as a result of limiting the current flow

Because of the current being limited - the slimes would not fall off the anodes but instead hold to the anodes like a "packed" clay mud

As the cell ran it would reach a point where the mud - being stuck to the anodes - would prevent the electrolyte from getting fully to the anodes & the current would start dropping off to a point of near shut down - "before" - the cell was done running --- & the slimes had more silver in them

So I would have to pull the anodes & wash the mud off using a stiff brush to get the heavy mud (slimes) off the anodes & then re-start the cell with the cleaned anodes --- it took doing this three times with that first run doubling the Walmart muslin

At first I just figured it had something to do with the anodes --- so I did it again the next time I ran the cell with the same results

That's when I figured out the current was being limited by the double layer of Walmart's muslin so went to a single layer muslin & have not had that problem since

That said - I run my cell as a thumb cell so the anodes sit on top the muslin in a basket which "may" also contribute to the slimes not falling off (along with limiting current)

so if you are "hanging" the anodes in a bag the double layer may not be a problem - I can only "assume" that as long as the bag is not touching the anode - the slime may - or not fall off 

Kurt


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## rickzeien (Apr 29, 2020)

Thanks Kurt. I will test it both ways and post the results here. 

I have a lot to learn in this area (and many areas as well) All tips, tricks and advise is welcome.

Also for all, don't be shy, ask any and all questions you have on this build. If I don't have any answer the experience and knowledge is here from more seasoned members or as part of the previous posts.

I am 62 years young and having the time of my life with this stuff. 

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## rickzeien (Apr 29, 2020)

Decided to "harvest" the copper from the cathode.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13PSTmpBjy7Apcaa005jkcuKy3s0-yORj/view?usp=drivesdk

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## Lou (Apr 29, 2020)

kurtak said:


> rickzeien said:
> 
> 
> > She made me 4 bags that were double layer with draw strings for $20. (She provided the material)
> ...



That was my exact experience.


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## Shark (Apr 29, 2020)

Looking forward to the progress!

What are you using as the power supply?


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## Lou (Apr 29, 2020)

Rick,


Look into thiourea or gelatin for leveling out the cathode deposit. Somewhere here GSP (RIP) posted some good stuff on a copper cell and when I tried it, everything went text book.


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## rickzeien (Apr 29, 2020)

Lou said:


> Rick,
> 
> 
> Look into thiourea or gelatin for leveling out the cathode deposit. Somewhere here GSP (RIP) posted some good stuff on a copper cell and when I tried it, everything went text book.


I will! I am getting a little cathode loading at the base of the cathodes. 


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## rickzeien (Apr 29, 2020)

Shark said:


> Looking forward to the progress!
> 
> What are you using as the power supply?


It is a Sorensen. I forget the model but I will be adding that info and pictures to this thread soon. Both the Voltage settings and the corresponding amperage it ran at. 



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## seb.damX (May 3, 2020)

Congrats, Rick

I am a rookie member here and read so many interesting things here on a daily base, 
but I have to leave a comment here because I am deeply impressed.

This looks beautiful! Your design looks pretty scalable and clean to handle. 
Also your idea of pooring into long triangle molds is imo great! 

May I ask you what kind of material you feed in? To get an idea of recipe composing? 
Is it a mix of non-ferrous pmg ewaste with added copper to get above 95%? 

best regards and looking forward to see you installing the titanium gasket! ;-)

Sebastian


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## rickzeien (May 3, 2020)

seb.damX said:


> Congrats, Rick
> 
> I am a rookie member here and read so many interesting things here on a daily base,
> but I have to leave a comment here because I am deeply impressed.
> ...


Thanks. 

The copper is a collector metal for smelting trial I am conducting. It is a gold bearing ore with some silver and various other base metals. It has been gravity concentrated.

I recieved titanium anode basket yesterday an I will get to modifications soon. So stay tuned. 

FYI. I picked up some gelatin that was suggested by Lou to use as a leveling additive. I will post the results soon. 



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## rickzeien (May 9, 2020)

Here is a video update. It addresses several components.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1514wU6_YLA1QxoQpCYa0k1pd0zbw9rM-/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited to upload correct video. 

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## seb.damX (May 18, 2020)

Hi Rick

Thanks for sharing a more detailled view on the overall setup. Smart move to make two out of one, since they don´t have to win a beauty contest. :wink: Looking forward to see this in action. I allready expexcted something like a daisy chain - the rack looked like it was intended to be scaled up.

Now you mentioned, you will gather 3 PMs in 3 different tanks. How would that be done in practice?
Do you already have a possible approach for this? 

All the best for you and your project ! 


Sebastian


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## rickzeien (May 19, 2020)

Sebastian,

Sorry for the confusion. The cell I am working on now is for copper. 

The other 2 will be for silver. 1 of those will be a rougher cell and the other to finish. (More on these later). Both will be the same basic design. 

All three cells will capture any precious metals that may be in the slimes. 

Going forward I will try to limit this discussion to copper as to not create confusion. 

Thanks


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## nickvc (May 19, 2020)

Rick nice set up but beware the fumes as any metal exposed will rot fairly quickly.
One point I would make is do not use shot for the cells, why? The vast majority of the metals in the slimes will be your basic feed stock, silver or copper in your case, by putting shot in you will vastly increase the amount of those metals In your slimes with pieces that have either pacified or not been in contact with the current, with bars parts that have fallen off you simply rinse off and remelt with shot that is not very practical.
To see my point watch sreetips videos on YouTube where he refined the slimes from his silver cell, he had to dissolve loads of silver shot before even starting to recover the other values making the use of a cell almost pointless. The real beauty of cells is the lack of effort required once up and running the big bug bear is the fouling of the electrolytes but as you have your own analytic set up you should be able to control them and be able to run fairly easily.
With a silver breakdown cell you can simply add more nitric to the electrolyte, removing your feedstock first, and dissolve some of the already refined silver to increase the silver percentage in your solution to stop co depositing of other metals, this obviously causes fumes that need venting but can increase the running time of the electrolyte considerably.


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## rickzeien (May 19, 2020)

nickvc,

Thanks for your input. I am going to try using the cone mold tips directly in the basket. Just waiting to build up a few more to start. (Been side tracked by a few other projects but I will be back at it soon)

I did experience the incomplete digestion and pasification you described with the cornflake shot I made. 

I will post here once I get a chance to try. 

Rick,


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## nickvc (May 19, 2020)

Rick I think you may still have problems with the cone mold tips, I’d melt them into a bar.
If you use a plastic colander type of unit to suspend your anodes you can line it with filter cloth to catch the slimes and load bars as they need replacing.


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## Shark (May 19, 2020)

When I started playing with my smaller cells I had problems with shot also. As Nick describes it, keeping contact was a real pain. If you agitate the shot, you disturb the slime's that came off also. For me the real headache was the slime's migrating through the filter bags from the disturbance. It may work better with bigger, heavier pieces, but I would think eventually they will be small enough to cause some problems as well. My best were made in a cast iron skillet that sat on an angle where the resulting plates were thicker on one side. Stacked right in a basket such as yours they would break down more evenly and leave fewer chunks of copper behind. As they were broke down, I also had less disturbance in the slime's as well. It is possible that using a larger cell could alleviate some of the problems I had. I really enjoy your posts on your progress, they make me want to try more methods as well.


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## rickzeien (May 19, 2020)

Shark,

Thanks for the information. I like the tilted frying pan mold to make a tapered plate. 

It gave me a few more ideas. 

Best,

Rick


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## rickzeien (Jul 18, 2020)

I have been busier than a 1 armed paper hanger. 

Here is an update video. Made a few tweaks. 

[I meant 10 gallons of electrolyte not 10 pounds]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N4CkssfUh9vQJd2DK8CVxQAezLYDkg-z/view?usp=drivesdk

From Sharks post. [I did not use any of their additive but I did add a small amount of Knox gelatin per Lou's advice]

https://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/cplatmix.htm

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## rickzeien (Aug 1, 2020)

Here is an update. I forgot to add the gelatin to the electrolyte so the surface of the copper on the cathode was rough. (At least I think that was the cause)(I also had some intermittent problems with my power supply)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S0SFr1abbdy5uiLldoDaVnSQwiJS2qvZ/view?usp=drivesdk










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## dwt9999 (Jun 28, 2021)

Thank you for sharing. Copper refining has been of great interest to me.


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## Shark (Aug 23, 2022)

For those interested this was worth the read. Even the second time around.


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## 608927101la (Sep 2, 2022)

If interested. SPS Bis-(sodium sulfopropyl) disulfide, makes the copper shiny, according to this vid :


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## Rreyes097 (Nov 25, 2022)

rickzeien said:


> Here is a video update. It addresses several components.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Yggdrasil (Nov 26, 2022)

Rreyes097, what are your intention here, there is no new information nor a question?


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## Rreyes097 (Nov 26, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Rreyes097, what are your intention here, there is no new information nor a question?


Honestly I don't even remember doing this. Perhaps I meant to just bookmark it but I'm not sure. Sorry!


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## frederickdoc (Nov 27, 2022)

I like trying to making electrolytes, then use them to change things, i like hi refractory heat , plate copper with nickle, like them comnection you may finish up later on the unit.then go better like wht gold..i play with small containers. 3 containers is not enough lol I try Remove all kind metals into solution my hobby with errors ,intersting secrets too.thanx for the copper cell? video setup


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## popslab (Dec 4, 2022)

Shark said:


> For those interested this was worth the read. Even the second time around.


Shark i am interested in copper cells. What are you referring to being worth the read?


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 4, 2022)

popplaysgold said:


> Shark i am interested in copper cells. What are you referring to being worth the read?


I guess the whole thread, since it was posted here


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## Shark (Dec 4, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> I guess the whole thread, since it was posted here


Yep. The whole thread, it adds to the multitude of other information on the forum. Not to mention all the free books that can be found on google and archive.org. Just a name a few.


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