# Fist go around with AP Process



## Tagsyboy (Mar 29, 2012)

Well Forum, This is it... The first attempt as an AP bath. I have prepared the solution according to LazerSteve's instuctions ( Top Notch ) and the process is under way. 
I started with 2.3lbs (1030.4 grams) of Fingers and 1.65lbs (739.2) of plated boards. They are in Seperate 2 Gal Strainer Buckets in 5 Gal Holding Buckets
See the Attached Pics and please feel free to comment on any better method of processing the boards
The AP Solution consists of 3 qts of HCL 31.35% and 1.5 qts of Peroxide 3%

After 14 hrs, I added 1 cup of Peroxide to each batch and received a nice rejuvenated bright Green color. I have been agitating the buckets every two hours and they have been in the Soak for 18 hrs thus far. There is definite deterioration of the fingers and the boards and there are gold particles clearly floating in the solution.

So, The waiting continues while the anticipation builds...

I will update more tomorrow.


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## gold4mike (Mar 29, 2012)

It sounds like you're off to a good start. You'd be better served to use an air bubbler rather than more Hydrogen Peroxide to rejuvenate your AP. You'll be less likely to put the gold into solution and, therefor, less likely to lose it later in the process.

If it's in solution it will eventually be driven back out as more copper goes in but it will be a fine black powder rather than an easily recognizable gold flake.

Keep us posted as you make progress.


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## Palladium (Mar 29, 2012)

The boards in the first picture appear to have solder still attached to them as well as other parts.


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## Geo (Mar 29, 2012)

Palladium said:


> The boards in the first picture appear to have solder still attached to them as well as other parts.



my thoughts as well. be prepared to deal with some tin in your recovery. its not an impossible task but you would have been better off soaking the boards in a hcl bath for a quarter hour before starting the process.


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## patnor1011 (Mar 29, 2012)

As long as he will not use Nitric then he is safe even with tin present on boards. He will eliminate that with proper filtering after HCl/Cl.


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## Tagsyboy (Mar 30, 2012)

Thank you all for the responses ! Mike - Thanks for the Air Bubbler tip, It showed Great progress within two hours of its use. Palladium - I took the pictures before I did a final check for parts on the boards and they were removed, I wasn't sure how to get the remaining solder off the boards. Geo - Please tell me more about this Hcl bath prior to the AP process and what would be the best way to expose the boards to Hcl and the AP. Patnor - Thanks for the response and Reassurance.

So, Here it is the following day and the process has evolving pretty darn well. There is Gold floating and suspended in the solution and the Air Bubbler worked amazingly. The gold is well populated in the solution and clearly swirls around with greater visibility when the bucket is agitated. The solution is a dark green color and most of the fingers have been dissolved of their gold, about 35% of the fingers have their gold still. The Boards are definitely taking longer but the ones that had no covered features have dissolved almost fully of their gold. The Boards and fingers have been soaking for 40 hrs at this point. 
Looking forward to recovering the gold from the solution, Will post more pics and results soon.
And Please , Any comments or suggestions are Greatly Appreciated...!!!


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## Geo (Mar 30, 2012)

to remove the solder chemically, prepare the hcl bath with diluted hcl. if your using muriatic acid, dilute 50/50 with water, enough to well cover all the boards. this can be done in a plastic container. leave the boards in the bath for a day. if the solution is diluted, no gold should be liberated in that time. NOTE: after the hcl bath, gold plated surfaces will have a silvered appearance. this is a very thin film of tin that has redeposited on the gold.people mistakenly think the gold has been dissolved when they see this.if you rub a section of gold plate after the bath, the gold color can be seen. be careful to collect any powder liberated in the bath as this will be a high percentage of silver from the solder. re-use this bath until it is saturated with tin or becomes contaminated with copper. copper chloride will dissolve copper and will liberate gold foils in your hcl bath.this is undesirable because of the difficulty in separating the foils from the trash.

on a separate note, make sure the boards your dealing with are not gold plated underneath the green solder mask. from the pictures, it looks to me that this could be the case. gently scratch off some of the green solder mask and if you see gold, then you will need to remove the solder mask prior to the AP process.


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## Tagsyboy (Apr 2, 2012)

Geo, You were right about the boards having gold under the green mask. what is gonna be the best way to get the green off - it covers a lot of area.
Although the AP process did eat thru the grren to get at the gold in most of the areas but not completely. should I try and run those boards again ?

Also, Can I reuse the AP solution from the 1st bath again and is there any gold that is still attainable in the solution and by what method ?


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## Tagsyboy (Apr 2, 2012)

Ok Forum, Here it is... Th AP Process worked perfectly as far as I can see.! The Fingers and Boards sat for about 50 hrs and they produced Great results.!! The Fingers yeilded 12 grams after drying overnight in the coffee filter and the boards yielded 11 grams although the gold was very tiny & grainy. I was surprised by the yield of the boards based on the surface area it covered as it was about half the size of the fingers. Turns out there Was a layer of gold under all that Green mass on the boards ( Good Call Geo ) and the AP Process ate thru most of it, right down to the fiber in most of the areas, but there are still a bunch of boards with their green coating on them where it didnt fully digest. I think I should put them thru another time and try to recover the remainder ??? 

The foils cleaned up really well and are drying out nicely in the filters awaiting the acid - chlorox stage.
Is it OK to let the foils wait and build up before liquifying in the next process or should it be done right after the cleaning process ?

Gotta Shout it out that LazerSteve's website is the Greatest !!! Might not have tried the whole process if I didn't get to his site and watch his Videos. He made the whole thing seem possible and Turns out HE WAS RIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank-You Very Much Steve for getting me to this point..!!!!
as well as to those that have posted replies. That Info was just as helpful..!!

These are the pics from the AP Process and Foil Recovery

As Always, Comments and Suggestions are Greatly Appreciated...!!!


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## Geo (Apr 2, 2012)

yea, you can run them through a second time. lazersteve has a video showing how to remove the solder mask, its a very simple process and takes a few minute to the board. foils can be horded and built up till you have enough to run. remember, foil weight never equals refined weight. dont get disappointed when the refined weight is lower, its just the nature of the beast.


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## qst42know (Apr 7, 2012)

Tagsyboy said:


> The Fingers yeilded 12 grams after drying overnight in the coffee filter and the boards yielded 11 grams although the gold was very tiny & grainy. I was surprised by the yield of the boards based on the surface area it covered as it was about half the size of the fingers.



Don't count on those resulting weights based on simple air drying in the filter. You will be drastically disappointed once the water is driven out with heat.


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## Tagsyboy (Apr 9, 2012)

Hey Forum,
As was predicted the Foils Did lose some weight after drying of the water weight after a couple of days. They each lost about 2 grams. 
The Bigger problem right now appears to be the Green Solder Mask that is mixed in with the foils. I seperated and removed as mush as my nerves can stand for now, but there must be an easier way...
In the future I will definitely remove prior to the AP bath but,
Any tips and/or advice on how to remove the solder mask at this stage..????

This is what the foils look like now...


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## martyn111 (Apr 9, 2012)

Do not worry about the green solder mask at this stage, when you dissolve the gold to refine it, filter the solution and the solder mask will be caught in the filter before you precipitate your refined gold.


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## Geo (Apr 9, 2012)

Tagsyboy said:


> Any tips and/or advice on how to remove the solder mask at this stage..????



dissolve the foils with the solder mask using hcl/Cl and then filter the solution leaving the solder mask behind.


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## Tagsyboy (Apr 9, 2012)

Thank-you GEO !! That's gonna save a whole lot of time and effort..!!!

So, just so I have it straight, I can go ahead and liquify the foils with the HCL / Chlorox and then strain out the mask with just a plastic mesh type strainer or can I just use a coffee filter ? and if so will any of the gold in the solution get trapped in the coffee filter ?


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## Tagsyboy (Apr 9, 2012)

and Thank You Martyn as well..!!!


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## maynman1751 (Apr 9, 2012)

I use a plastic strainer with a coffee filter inside. As long as all gold has gone into solution it will go through the filter leaving only mask. Remember to rinse your filter well with water(into you gold solution) and save the filter for later incineration. Rid the solution of chlorine by either just letting it set open for a day or add low heat to drive off the Cl. Then drop the gold with your chemical of choice.


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## Geo (Apr 9, 2012)

dont forget your spray bottle.i use an old Mean Green cleaner spray bottle.ive used it hard now for about two years. put clean water in the spray bottle to spray your filter after all your solution has passed through to rinse all the gold solution out.spray until all the yellow color is gone.


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## Tagsyboy (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks Maynman , Geo and Martyn..!!! What a Relief..!!!!!

This Forum is the Absolute Greatest..!!!!!!! The topics and Instruction couldn't be more Thorough and Easy enough to follow. ..!!!!!
Not too mention the degree of comfort that comes from all the experience of the Forum members...

Thanks to All for your Postings and responses..!!!!


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## Tagsyboy (Apr 24, 2012)

Hello Forum, Things have been going along smoothly as I have been stockpiling the foils. The AP process has been working perfectly.!! 
I moved on to the next step with the Acid / Chlorox reduction of the foils. I did two seperate batches of foils and the process went well untill I strained the solution into the storage jar. I had a nice gold color in my reaction dish and then the solution turned a green color. What gives with this ??? I don't know what happened because when I did the second batch it reduced the foils and strained perfectly and I was left with a beautiful golden color.
Here are the pics - the first try is the green one and the 2nd try is the golden one.

What can be done to fix the green colored solution ? Anyone...

Thanks,
Tags


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## Geo (Apr 24, 2012)

the green is copper contamination. it will not hinder your precipitation. the two solution can be added together for that matter as you will go through the dissolution and precipitation process again anyway. after the drop, dont forget the rinses and washes to remove the last bit of contamination.


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## Tagsyboy (May 26, 2012)

Hello Again Forum,
The process has been going along pretty much as described in all the info. I have been stockpiling my gold foils and assorted materials and now I have some questions about what I have produced... Any Help is greatly appreciated..!!

The first question is pretty basic. I have 10 gallons of rinse water that I have been rinsing the fingers and boards from the Ap process in. 
What is this blue liquid called now and does it have any values in it that can be recovered ?
The second being that at the bottom of the bucket there has accumulated a gray milky substance. What is this and is there anything recoverable from it ?
I put a piece of copper pipe in the solution thinking that maybe I would recover silver..?? but I have no Idea...


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## patnor1011 (May 26, 2012)

By processing fingers in AP you have only very slight chance of some silver in your solution. Silver chloride to be precise. Your white powder on bottom is copper chloride.


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## Tagsyboy (May 26, 2012)

Thanks Patnor. Is there anything that can be done with this copper chloride ?


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## patnor1011 (May 26, 2012)

I can say you are responsible person that you even keep rinse water and not just flush that down drains. What I would do is this.
I would decant as much liquid as possible, leave white sediment on the bottom. 
Decanted water can be evaporated to say one tenth of volume, it is bkue so it contain copper. Add some fresh HCl. Test with stannous. If test is negative add some scrap iron, I am using casing from floppy or dvd drives, that will push copper out, some people add dropped and dried copper powder to copper scrap they sell - but you may check with your scrap yard if they will accept it.
White sediment can be treated in the same way. If you add fresh HCl - just small amount most if not all of your sediment will dissolve back to solution and whatever will be left may contain some values like silver chloride. You can again cement copper out with scrap iron. Left over solution after cemented copper is taken out can be neutralised with sodium bicarbonate or ash soda and discarded.


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## trashmaster (May 27, 2012)

You may have left alot or some GOLD in your AP solution,;;; :roll: 

I noticed that you were only using one filter paper ,,, You need to use 3-4 filters at a time ..

Use 3-4 filters at a time and wet them first using your spray bottle, then refilter all your AP solution.


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## Harold_V (May 28, 2012)

trashmaster said:


> You may have left alot or some GOLD in your AP solution,;;; :roll:
> 
> I noticed that you were only using one filter paper ,,, You need to use 3-4 filters at a time ..
> 
> Use 3-4 filters at a time and wet them first using your spray bottle, then refilter all your AP solution.


Might be wise to clarify your comments. When I was actively refining, I never used more than one at a time, nor was there need. 

For filtering rough materials, I used S&S Sharkskin, which is (was?) more than adequate for separating dirt from solutions. It won't yield clear affluent initially, but loads up and does an adequate (and fast job) of separating the two. Such solutions always got filtered once again, just before precipitation, so I was not concerned about the small amount of particulate matter that would get past the filter. 

For that second filtration, there's nothing quite like Whatman #2. It's quite fast, and will trap all but the finest of particles. On occasion I'd have to send the solution through a second time, after the filter got somewhat loaded and stopped passing the ultra fine particulate matter. 

Lastly, there's Whatman #5. It's not real fast, but excellent for filtering solutions such as those from a second refining of gold. It stops the finest of particles. 

The Whatman filters were not cheap. They were, however, worth every cent they cost. I used them in the 32CM size. 

I did not rely on vacuum filtration for the majority of my operations. I used an educator for creating vacuum, and had a back flush of water on more than one occasion. I determined I was much better off allowing gravity to do the work, and learned to pre-treat my materials so they'd filter well. A lot can be said for incineration and HCl prewashes in that regard. 

Harold


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## Tagsyboy (May 29, 2012)

Harold,
Thank-you for the advice on the filters. Can you tell me more about the incineraton process that you spoke of ? Also, I want to incinerate my filters to recover any gold trapped in them, what is the best way to do that ?


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## Harold_V (May 30, 2012)

Assuming your filters don't have an excess of "dirt" included, simply place them in a discarded stainless fry pan and heat the bottom to redness (do not use aluminum or steel). I used a natural gas hotplate for incineration. The carbonaceous materials will burn, then the ash must be heated long enough for all of the charcoal (ash) that remains to be fully consumed. You can do that by further heating the bottom of the pan with a torch, which was my procedure. When at red heat, a little oxygen (from the torch) can my played over the hot ash, which will rapidly consume any remaining carbon. It will be obvious to you by the intense glow. Once done, the ash is screened (to remove any large particles that may have slipped through), then given a wash in hot HCl. After careful rinsing, dissolve the values by your preferred method. 

If your filters contain a great deal of silver chloride, you may be best served by converting the silver to elemental. That can be by furnace, or, if you don't allow the silver chloride to dry, by chemical means, or even by conversion with iron or aluminum. That way any values that may be included will be recovered along with the silver, and then recovered when the silver is parted. 

Harold


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## Tagsyboy (May 30, 2012)

Thank you for the process Harold.!! 

How will I know if I have Silver Chloride in my filters ? I have been processing both Fingers and Whole Boards.


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## Harold_V (May 31, 2012)

I'm not the best person to discuss boards, as I rarely processed any of them. However, if you have been processing boards, I don't expect you'll have a lot of silver present. 

You might consider trying a little experiment, however. Considering silver chloride is soluble in ammonium hydroxide, try pouring a small amount to some of the solids remaining after you have filtered the gold solution. Make sure you have rinsed it well. so there's no gold present. Stir the contents well, then separate the solids from the solution. Add a little HCl to the solution to see if you get a precipitate. If there's silver present, you should get a white cloud, and if there's a lot, it should yield clots, much like cottage cheese. Don't expect that, but it's nice to know it's possible. 

Harold


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