# No nitric acid



## Aqlor (Dec 7, 2010)

Hey,

I have a simple question. Is there a way to extract gold using a chemical process without using nitric acid ( most people can't buy this here ) ? 
I've been searching in the forum and I think the information should be more organized, I've been searching for a way for a while but I can't find it.

Levi


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## dtectr (Dec 7, 2010)

Aqlor said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have a simple question. Is there a way to extract gold using a chemical process without using nitric acid ( most people can't buy this here ) ?
> I've been searching in the forum and I think the information should be more organized, I've been searching for a way for a while but I can't find it.
> ...


 Wow! :shock: :roll: Doesn't sound like you've been searching very long, then. If you're looking for a $0.99 answer & a 5 minute solution, you're out of luck. These chemicals, even "household" ones, can kill & maim in the hands of a moron. Or someone with no experience & no patience. No offense :shock: 

Unless you are depending on some funky search engine, everything you need can be found by going to lazersteve's signature line & follow the links.


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## Aqlor (Dec 7, 2010)

The information on the forum is not organized. Sure, I can find information on websites but not on the tutorials category of the forum. Usually these posts are set as sticky and are posts that should be made to be fixed with information you know is completely right, not someone that did something and that worked with no good scientific explanation.
Anyway, obviously everyone wants to extract it the more efficient way


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## 4metals (Dec 7, 2010)

This forum is not run for a profit, it is to share information. The organization you seek would require a monumental effort to achieve. Most come here, read some posts and follow threads and learn along the way. It seems to have been a recipe for success for others. It takes time but all you seek is here.


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## shyknee (Dec 7, 2010)

Aqlor said:


> The information on the forum is not organized. Sure, I can find information on websites but not on the tutorials category of the forum. Usually these posts are set as sticky and are posts that should be made to be fixed with information you know is completely right, not someone that did something and that worked with no good scientific explanation.
> Anyway, obviously everyone wants to extract it the more efficient way



Hello and welcome ,
I see you have been with us since 2008 ? if you have been reading and following some threads and read hoke's book then you would know by now, how to ask the question

your question should read like this
I've been reading for two years and I still don't understand could someone help please.?

then someone would point you in the right direction depending on the type of material you would like to process


cheers


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## Aqlor (Dec 7, 2010)

4metals, I don't think it would be that hard, most foruns online are not run by profit,they just have moderators whose whole purpose is organizing the information.

I've seen the videos and posts you've talked about but what I get is that most people don't really know for sure what they are doing. 

For example, I just watched again the fingers video ( from http://goldrecovery.us/ ) and what seems to me is that people don't know for sure how much they need of each chemical. We can see there that what is being used first is "about half a gallon of muriatic acid" with about a "quarter gallon of peroxide" and soon after we can hear "this particular mix that i've used is really taking the gold off fast". So, how much acid should be used? Just about the acid to cover up the foils? That way I can use less if I have a huge square container... How much peroxide should I use? Is it supposed to be 1:2 hydroxide:acid, it seems like the mix could be more efficient because of the statement "this particular mix that I've used is really taking the gold off fast". Not to mention the peroxide that is added later to the original mix, could this be added previously? 
Another thing, after the foils are separated the first time from the fingers why are they cleaned with acid only? Shouldn't it be acid and peroxide ( the mix used before ) ?

These are the kind of questions I think that should be answered on some sticky posts here on the forum, I am trying to help the forum to get more organized, I was just saying that people with some "forum experience" should be chosen as moderators to get it more organized or at least get some of the people who own this to do it.

Anyway, I am not saying the moderators aren't doing a good job, there could be different kind of moderators, some to tell people like me to shut up ( I admit it is necessary sometimes  ) others just to move posts and such things.

(btw dtectr I am not "depending on some funky search engine")
What I have found difficult, maybe YOU haven't, is founding some good organized information, and you should say that I am stupid or something because you don't know how many people have come here before and left because they couldn't find something that maybe was here lost somewhere.

Oh and sorry if I offended someone, shyknee, it wasn't my intention.


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## Palladium (Dec 7, 2010)

Welcome to the forum.
Try starting with some of the links in my sig line below.


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## nickvc (Dec 7, 2010)

If you really want to learn to refine gold or any other precious metals it's all here!
It isn't easy and might not be organized to your or anyones elses taste but it's here.
Quit your whinging and put some effort in, it's what makes this forum work, you do your part and we help...you want spoon feeding information..... Bye bye!


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## Aqlor (Dec 7, 2010)

I will use your links Palladium, thanks, just saying that things like that should be sticky posts on the tutorials


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## lazersteve (Dec 7, 2010)

Levi,

Go back to goldrecovery.us and read the document titled 'Copper Chloride Etchant' for all the technical data on 'Acid Peroxide'. The article has been there for going on four years now as well as many posts on the details of the process including ratios and molar weight if you need them.

Here's a few it looks like you may have missed:

Acid Peroxide Help

and if you want to use your AP for dissolving gold:

Etchant Chart Short Version


Most folks go to my website and just watch the videos, you are only getting part of the information when you do this.

Make sure you take the Guided Tour Link below and finish it, lastly read Hoke. I'm looking forward to seeing your first gold button in the gallery.

Steve


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## patnor1011 (Dec 8, 2010)

To say that forum is not organized is rather funny statement. It may not be organized in your way of what you want or look for. Another person is looking for different things and your organization will not work for him.
My approach was simple. When you start all posts are marked. As you progress reading them they will be marked as read. Every time just go to view unread posts and chew through. If you will find post you like bookmark that or subscribe to that. It is your responsibility to organize forum to your liking. Why on earth everyone who join cry about organizing forum? You have to organize that yourself as you like by reading, searching, bookmarking and subscribing. If you are not interested in some particular parts like mining or metal detecting or safety just ignore those. Forum is organized perfectly with 11 main sections, 38 subsections and yes there are sticky threads, guided tours and tutorials.
I can say that I read whole forum since I joined so I know that info is there and when I have problem locating something I know I saw before I use search function.


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## Harold_V (Dec 8, 2010)

Hmmm. Let me see if I understand this guy. 

He comes to a forum where people with real life experience in refining willingly post information that, up to now, has bordered on the impossible to corral-----and he complains because it's not presented in a fashion that meets with his approval? Someone gifts him with knowledge that has been hard won, and he doesn't like the way it's wrapped? 

<<<sigh>>>

<<<<<very heavy sigh, in fact>>>>>

For the record----when I got interested in learning to refine, I encountered only one person that had any knowledge----and he laughed in my face (literally) when I asked for some guidance, telling me that "you'll never do it". 

Without the guidance of one solitary person, I discovered Hoke's book, and, from it, learned all that is required in order to be able to process gold, platinum, palladium, and it even gives some basic guidelines on silver, although it is treated with little respect by Hoke. That's due, in part, to its relatively low value at the time of the writing of the book ($1.29/oz official valuation at the time). 

May I suggest to you, Aqlor, that you back up to the post by nickvc, and read it. When you're through reading, read it again. Then I suggest you follow his advice to the letter. You will make more friends here by showing some incentive instead of sitting in the nest with your mouth agape, hoping to be fed. Most of the readers here have paid serious dues for the knowledge they have gained----and generally share it willingly----but to the man, most of us expect you to do your part. Complaining about the organization of the board isn't what I have in mind. 

Harold


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## texan (Dec 8, 2010)

A lot of processes outlined here (AP process..aqua regia etc) may work on or be appropriate for one type of material and not on others. What type of scrap do you want to process? Electronics...karat...gold filled....gold plated...other PM's? I have built up a small back log of scrap that will be processed with nitric/aqua regia some time in the future when I get comfortable with using the AP process on fairly simple "learning" projects...I spent six months reading material here before started processing anything.

Texan


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## Harold_V (Dec 8, 2010)

Aqlor said:


> These are the kind of questions I think that should be answered on some sticky posts here on the forum,


That doesn't work well. Once stickies are too deep, new posts don't appear for the viewer without scrolling down. That's never a good idea (speaking from experience). 



> I am trying to help the forum to get more organized, I was just saying that people with some "forum experience" should be chosen as moderators to get it more organized or at least get some of the people who own this to do it.


You're the man. I expect you'll immediately begin the process of organizing. Make a huge list of where each post should be, and place them in order of importance. When you have completed your mission, please submit the list to any of the moderators and we'll take the appropriate action. 

Or----you can pay any of us a fee for our time, and we'll do it for you. 

You see------none of us are unhappy with things as the are. Information that has been assembled here is disjointed, often covering several topics, each related in some way. To suggest that it can be better organized shows your considerable lack of understanding. 

I wonder---have you considered how your comments may be being interpreted by those of us that have dedicated countless hundreds of hours to helping others? (I think you already understand how I'm reading them---but I have an obligation to remain civil on this forum). 

Now, the best thing you can do is to start reading, and read until the things you read make sense. When you start talking with these guys in a way that shows you have an understanding, I think you'll find they'll bend over backwards trying to help. Whining about the forum sure as hell isn't winning you any favors. 



> there could be different kind of moderators, some to tell people like me to shut up


That's my job----and I feel I handle it adequately. I also move posts, ban unwanted readers and in general try to keep the board running smoothly, along with my fellow moderators. 



> What I have found difficult, maybe YOU haven't, is founding some good organized information, and you should say that I am stupid or something because you don't know how many people have come here before and left because they couldn't find something that maybe was here lost somewhere.


One of the things with which you must come to terms is the idea that you may not have the capacity for this type of work. Those that appear to have endure and learn. If some, as you claim, come here and leave unhappy, it is most likely that they have little to no interest in learning--they simply expect to be spoon fed. That's not going to happen. Not here, and not anywhere. Sorting people, to insure that we have serious minded and responsible individuals as readers is very much a part of what we hope to achieve. 

Which one are you?

Don't tell me----show me. Start reading and learning, or pick up your marbles and leave, but stop complaining about the gift you have been granted in this forum. The choice is yours. 

Harold


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## butcher (Dec 8, 2010)

Maybe we can get Hokes book re-written so it is in the order I like?

Recovery and refining is a complicated science and art, which can be confusing to someone just beginning, we discuss many processes and different metals, the information this forum contains is also overwhelming, and seems could take a lifetime to absorb it all, most things are discussed over and over, adding to the text and amount of information, even here we learn something new, if someone is willing to work they can find gold and with this forum they can refine their gold,
It is not easy; if it were there would be no value in it.
So many here have handed us this information, and they spend much of their time and trouble and sometimes there money to provide this information, making something that was virtually impossible to do possible. Gold takes work, if you want gold you must work for it period,

All I can say is, I thank you members of the gold refining forum for making this possible, making our work easier by sharing what you have.

Aglor, work for your gold and knowledge then share with us (your knowledge), but please do not bite the hands that feed.
take one process, learn it, study it, get it down to a science, then report your findings to help other members.


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## Aqlor (Dec 8, 2010)

Butcher, I think your's was the best replay to the topic.

As I said before, I was not trying to bite the hands that feed me, I was just saying we could get more people to the hobby if the information was on the right places 

Thanks again for the reply


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 8, 2010)

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8322

I guess you can use HCl and bleach, or HCl and sodium chlorate, or make your own nitric acid, or dissolve inquarts in sulfuric acid, or... It's all here somewhere. :shock:


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## Aqlor (Dec 8, 2010)

wow 1,025 troy ounce is amazing for a first timer right?

I understand what you say but, you know, I can't find clorox here ( I can find other types of bleach ) and that way I don't know the quantities, sodium chlorate I think is a controlled substance ( although I can easily make it with electrolysis ) and nitric acid wouldn't be hard for me to make it neither, if I recall with just HCL and KNO3 (I have it for making small rockets ) you can make it right? The problem is I don't trust myself to synthesize these chemicals as I don't trust these homebrewd versions as much as I trust something bought and tested by a lab and I am afraid of ruining the whole process...


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## HAuCl4 (Dec 8, 2010)

Aqlor said:


> wow 1,025 troy ounce is amazing for a first timer right?
> 
> I understand what you say but, you know, I can't find clorox here ( I can find other types of bleach ) and that way I don't know the quantities, sodium chlorate I think is a controlled substance ( although I can easily make it with electrolysis ) and nitric acid wouldn't be hard for me to make it neither, if I recall with just HCL and KNO3 (I have it for making small rockets ) you can make it right? The problem is I don't trust myself to synthesize these chemicals as I don't trust these homebrewd versions as much as I trust something bought and tested by a lab and I am afraid of ruining the whole process...



I guess you have the task of overcoming your own limitations. Welcome to life. :lol:


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## Palladium (Dec 8, 2010)

Heres you a Niric acid recipie. Safe and easy to follow. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=2572#2572 



Aqlor said:


> I understand what you say but, you know, I can't find clorox here ( I can find other types of bleach ) and that way I don't know the quantities.



What does the bottle say the strenght of the Sodium Hypochlorite (Bleach) is?


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## Aqlor (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm not home right now but I will check it once I am there,
What is the concentration of Sodium hypochlorite supposed to be? I hope it doesn't have any other impurities :S for smell and shine


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## lmschers (Dec 8, 2010)

For platinum on cats.

---Can I mix HCl and Hydrogen peroxide instead? Would that do the same thing?
or does HO only help nitric acid? 

Is the sodium in the bleach helpful for chlorine?

---also, will any bleach do? I'm in Thailand so they don't have the exact "chlorox" brand.
so I guess my question is still really about the sodium or the hydrogen peroxide...


and in the end what is the best way to precipitate?


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## lazersteve (Dec 8, 2010)

lmschers said:


> For platinum on cats.
> 
> ---Can I mix HCl and Hydrogen peroxide instead? Would that do the same thing?
> or does HO only help nitric acid?


Yes. It will take longer and require heat, but it will work.



lmschers said:


> Is the sodium in the bleach helpful for chlorine?


No. It's the combination of bleach and HCl that makes the Chlorine. I've posted several references to documents with the equations. You can also search for chlorine water and bleach to find out more. 



lmschers said:


> ---also, will any bleach do? I'm in Thailand so they don't have the exact "chlorox" brand.



I use 10% sodium hypochlorite, I have also used 5%. You can purchase dry calcium hypochlorite but the calcium can be troublesome ( it forms insoluble compounds in some reactions). Straight chlorine gas will work with 32% HCl at 60C also (see chart posted above). 



lmschers said:


> and in the end what is the best way to precipitate?


I use 1 grams of dry ammonium chloride per two grams of dissolved PGM. The solution should be hot (60C) and free of sediment and concentrated.
Steve


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## Aqlor (Dec 8, 2010)

Got back from the store and I got some bleach with no additives and 4% sodium hypochlorite, best I could find 

Is SMB easy to come by?


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## lazersteve (Dec 8, 2010)

Levi said:


> Another thing, after the foils are separated the first time from the fingers why are they cleaned with acid only? Shouldn't it be acid and peroxide ( the mix used before ) ?



As stated in the video the HCl is added to wash the foils free of solid copper I chloride which is insoluble in water or saturated AP, but soluble is HCl. Muriatic acid and peroixde will dissolve the free gold if the gold is not in the saturated solution. Read about copper chloride (previously referenced document above) and you should begin to understand what the reaction is really all about.

I get SMB at http://chemistrystore.com.

Steve


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## Aqlor (Dec 8, 2010)

Oh, I see now, thanks lazersteve. 

btw, when I was read AP just now I though of acetone peroxide, that got me scared


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## lmschers (Dec 9, 2010)

Awesome, thanks a bunch steve!
I'm going to try cooking some cat dust with a lot of HCl and H2O2 tonight.
I have a week off of work so I'm trying to get a lot done.

SMB is the one thing I don't have...
I haven't paid much attention to it yet, is it mainly for precipitating gold?

I have a lot of zinc and ammonium chloride though....
What would you recommend for platinum?

--------
I tried AR with H2O2 on a cat (no brown NO fumes), and then just evaporated some of the liquid and got a fine grey dust.
I thought that was cool but then it poofed after i took a torch to it and it got too hot.
I tried to be gentle.... 
any ideas?
---------------------

and for any chemists out there, i've read that H2O2 can be made by electrolysis with 1 electrode in sodium hydroxide.
I'm trying to get a grip on the electrochemistry of all of this.
so with platinum electrodes I think you could separate common salt water into sodium hydroxide and chlorine gas.
and then use the (positive?) electrode on the sodium hydroxide to make peroxide.
am i crazy?


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## lazersteve (Dec 9, 2010)

Cat dust requires constant stirring and heat (60-90C) to get the PGMs extracted.

The liquid from the extraction has to be properly prepared before you add any precipitants.

1. Filter until it is 100% free of sediment.

2. Adjust pH to 3-5 (not critical). Lower pH requires more zinc to precipitate the mixed PGMs.

3. Add zinc turnings to precipitate the mixed PGM powder. Zinc powder is contaminted with insoluble Cab-O-Sil (SiO2).

4. Redissolve in the minimum amount of AR possible (3 mL HCl : 1 mL HNO3 per gram).

5. Filter clear again. Save residue in filter as possible Rh.

6. Evaporate off all NOx gas in the presence of HCl.

7. Add NH4Cl to precipitate Pt salt. Use 1 grams of NH4Cl per 2 grams of Pt expected.

8. Filter out Pt salt (Rinse filter with 10% solution of ammonium chloride, do not use water) and test to be sure Pt is removed with a dash of NH4Cl.

9. Test for Pd with stannous chloride or DMG.

10. If positive evaporate to concentrate to deep burgundy color (blood red).

11. Add 1 gram of NH4Cl per 2 grams of Pd expected to hot solution (not boiling).

12. Add a single crystal of sodium chlorate one at a time until brick red powder forms. Each addition forms chlrine gas whcih fizzes and foams so be careful of booil over.

13. Filter Pd salt out with a crystal of sodium chlorate in filter. Rinse filter with 10% solution of ammonium chloride (do not use water).

14. Calcine and melt resulting metals under hydrogen flame.

This is all covered on my Fundamentals of Platinum and Palladium DVD and numerous times on the forum. If you want more details please read the forum, Hoke, or buy the DVD from my website, or all three.

Steve


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## lmschers (Dec 12, 2010)

Ok, I boiled the cat dust in HCl and H2O2 for a couple hours.
I separated and filtered the liquid.
I evaporated off all the water (because i wasn't watching closely)
But then i added a little water to mix it up again and dissolve the crust that had stuck to the bottom.

Then I mixed up as much ammonium chloride as I could in a little hot water.

Then I poured the two together and waited...

This is what I got:
There is a whitish, very fine dust.
And the solution is a dark green.

What do you think the green might be?
Harold said over in another thread about "Platinum+silver" that the green would probably be platinum...
-----------------------
also...
I cooked down some solution of ammonium chloride and AR that i couldn't get a precipitate from last week.
When it was evaporated, there were green crystals of the same color.


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## snglstack (Dec 12, 2010)

I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.


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## joem (Dec 12, 2010)

oh oh


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## jimdoc (Dec 12, 2010)

snglstack said:


> I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.



This is the best source of info out there.If you aren't going to do a little studying on your own,I guess you are out of luck.Or you can buy an Ebay how to book.

There are many different factors in this hobby so you aren't going to get a play by play how to book on every process.

Good luck in your quest for knowledge.Oh,and my horse isn't high,I don't even have a horse.

Jim


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## Oz (Dec 12, 2010)

Heck of a first post there snglstack! 

I have to ask if you are here just to post once your opinion as to your dissatisfaction with the forum, or if you are here to learn something. Might I suggest that stating off with a laundry list of what you dislike about the forum and its members is perhaps not the best way to foster an attitude in those of us that could help you, to do so.

If you do not like how information is presented here, there are highly qualified individuals here that will teach you all you wish, how you wish, for a fee less than your Masters Degree cost you.

I sure hope your Masters Degree is not in psychology or communications.


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## Palladium (Dec 12, 2010)

jimdoc said:


> Good luck in your quest for knowledge.Oh,and my horse isn't high,I don't even have a horse.
> 
> Jim



I had a horse one time. Had to sell him to put myself through graduate school. I miss my horse. Cat's are more fun.


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## lmschers (Dec 12, 2010)

dammit, snagglestack! don't complain after my thread, now everyone is sidetracked...
your post makes you look ... bad.
i'm sure you can move on though... if you so desire.

watch MIT's open courseware for chemistry in youtube
also watch the periodic videos in youtube
then start wikipedia-ing every compound you don't know.
then download the books in people's tag lines.
then use the "search" on this site and start reading threads of relevance.

no it's not super organized, it's a community of people with a lot of questions and answers and ideas.
asking for guidance requires humility.
and the searching does kind of suck, but it pays off every time.

and so... anyone got ideas on my solutions? 
i found some of the stannous chloride testing pictures and it appears that Pd is green in solution.
i'm finally just going to make some and actually use it.
novel idea... i know 
i've just been going on the assumption that acids work on cats... but i should figure out what i've got anyway.

so should i start jumping for joy thinking that i actually got pure platinum to precipitate?
i think that should be orange...so
i want to do that... but i don't want to do that.
and i can't torch this because i'm out of fuel


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## jimdoc (Dec 12, 2010)

lmschers said:


> i found some of the stannous chloride testing pictures and it appears that Pd is green in solution.
> i'm finally just going to make some and actually use it.
> novel idea... i know



Now that sounds like a great idea.

Jim


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## lmschers (Dec 12, 2010)

Hi Jim. Did you look at my pictures? Can you answer any of my questions?


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## texan (Dec 12, 2010)

Snaglestack is rudely blunt but maybe he does have a point that can be developed. Perhaps now is the time to develope a collection of "practice and procedures" on the forum. Even Lazersteve's procedure's have undergone some modification since he started his DVD series. Most engineering societies have a convention every year or so where papers and dissertations are presented and then published in a publication called the "Proceedings of the xxxx Society for the year XXXX." 

Maybe it's time for the forum's first "party." This forum has a total of several thousand participants of varying interest...there may be a "core" that would be interested in putting something like this together. Out of this convention and possible future such events what we do as a hobby can be more organized and formalized.

Just an idea....

Texan


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## lmschers (Dec 12, 2010)

Sounds fantastic to me. But then again I'm not the one who has to be persuaded.

There are those books at tinyurl though. 
They're in the taglines of a few of the posters.
You can download them and they have pictures.


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## jimdoc (Dec 12, 2010)

lmschers said:


> Hi Jim. Did you look at my pictures? Can you answer any of my questions?



I think LazerSteve will be the one to answer your questions.
Catalytic converters can vary greatly,and they are working on converters that will not use precious metals.Do you know what the converter was from?

Jim


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## lazersteve (Dec 12, 2010)

snglstack said:


> I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.




The Guided Tour Link in my signature line below should help with the abbreviations. The abbreviations that you don't find in the links given are common to general chemistry and can be located via wiki (a suggestion given in the Guided Tour Link). I feel like my post above gave enough detail for anyone who follows the directions given to arrive at the same results I would. I also provided many other routes to the same results in the post above.

Aqua Regia (AR) = three parts muriatic acid (~32% HCl) to one part nitric acid (~68% HNO3) plus an equal volume of water (H2O) to the amount of HCl used. AR can also be made using 4 or even 5 parts HCl with the same results. The excess HCl works to help drive off the extra NOx (nitrogen oxide and dioxides) that are left in the solution after the metals have been dissolved.

The other items on washing and filtering are covered in great detail on the forum, in Hokes book, and on my website videos and DVDs.

As with any new scientific endeavour in life, there is a lot of pre-lab research that must be performed to become educated in the termonology, safety, and processes. All of that information is here on the forum and can be found via the search function or using the rough guide to the forum in the Guided Tour Link. If you are truly interested in learning to produce fine gold or platinum from scrap sources, it is your responsiblity to research the processes that best apply to your scrap. If after reading the Guided Tour and during your research you hit a wall with an abbreviation, step-by-step process or other process, feel free to post with your specific information and someone will be glad to help you solve the problem.

Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to organize the threads in such a way that all similar data is in the same area or thread. The main problem is that people jump in on a thread midway through and begin a new topic in the same thread. 

The Guided Tour link was created as a means to orientate new members to the terms and reactions used here. If you find any dead links or lost images let us know and we will fix it if possible.

Steve


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## lazersteve (Dec 12, 2010)

lmschers said:


> Sounds fantastic to me. But then again I'm not the one who has to be persuaded.
> 
> There are those books at tinyurl though.
> They're in the taglines of a few of the posters.
> You can download them and they have pictures.



I don't need persuasion to post, just a chance to get to it. I've never minded helping when I can.

This thread has jumped around a bit, from nitric substitutes, to gold, to cats, to a complaint, and now back to cats I suppose. If we are still talking about the same H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) + HCl leach of crushed cat material that has been filtered until free of precipitate, and tested with stannous as positive, then here's my answer:

You stated you added ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) to the boiled down leach. The whitish powder is the result. 

1. Siphon off the liquid after all of the powder settles.

2. Filter the white powder out into a flutted filter paper and rinse with 15% ammonium chloride solution while the powder is in the filter. Do not use water, it must be rinsed with 15% ammonium chloride.

3. Dissolve a small sample (~1 mg = about 1 milligram, not critical) of the white powder in a drop or two of water (use enough water as required ) in a test tube or spot plate well.

4. Add a drop of stannous chloride and post the photo.

5. Add two drops of the left over solution (golden yellow) to another test tube or spot plate well and add two drops of stannous chloride solution and post a photo.

6. Add two drops of the left over solution (golden yellow) to another test tube or spot plate well and add two drops of 1% DMG (dimethylglyoxime*)solution and post a photo.

7. All of this is covered by Hoke, my DVDs, my website, and the forum.

Steve


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## Oz (Dec 12, 2010)

Imschers,

First I would suggest that you buy or make some stannous chloride for testing your solutions before doing much more of anything. You are driving blind without it. Since testing for Pd can be a bit tricky with stannous due to its chameleon colors, I would also suggest you get some DMG (dimethylglyoxime) for testing it. 

I have not tried HCl with H2O2 on cat material before since most PGM reactions are far better with heat and heat rapidly decomposes H2O2, but it should work. I usually use HCl and sodium hypochlorite (unscented household bleach) or chlorine gas. I typically stay away from the HCl and nitric as it is a hassle to remove excess nitric before precipitating PGM salts. 

I also use my ammonium chloride dry as PGMs should be as concentrated as possible when precipitating their salts, using it as a solution is further dilution. Even then you will not get it all and need to cement wastes on copper or some other reclamation for full recovery.

As to your fine white dust. If you filtered well before adding your ammonium chloride, I would guess it is a salt. Take a sample and place it in a separate beaker with a little HCl and water and heat, if it is a salt from a chloride solution it should re-dissolve. 

In short you need to slow down and learn testing for the presence of different elements. Although I have never seen Steve's DVDs I am sure they would be a good investment.


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## lmschers (Dec 13, 2010)

GGGRRR
I just wrote up a nice post and then it disappeared when I clicked "post" ... lame.

Steve, thanks. 
Talking about persuasion, I was referencing the book idea. 
I wouldn't have much to add to it...
And I figured the forum guide book was good enough for most things.
although...
A sticky or book on cat con recycling would be a GREAT idea 
hint hint, everyone.

and Oz yeah, I'm totally working as fast as I can. It's a bit reckless and wasteful but I'm learning (at least things are cheaper in Thailand). 
I just had a week off of work so I tried to do everything that I could think of.

So...
With the HCl - H202 mix, it was a nice orange color after it was done boiling on the cat.
And it was really hard to evaporate so I let the liquid evaporate all night after I poured it off.
I got a crusty salt on the bottom, and i added some water and amm chloride to that and stirred it up.
Maybe i didn't get it do dissolve well enough...
I say that because there was no color change that I think would have pointed towards Pt dropping.
I just have the same ammount of fine dust as I did crust... but now the liquid is green.

Anyway. I've got some tin solder and HCl, so I'll mix up some stannous and test everything and post pictures this week.
I'll also order some DMG just in case.

Thanks guys,
Luke


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## Harold_V (Dec 13, 2010)

snglstack said:


> I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.


I understand. 

You don't. 

I have no education. I was lucky to graduate high school. I was a horrible student (I blame no one but myself). 

You claim to have a Master's Degree. You claim to know "how to study". 

Show me. 

Show me by doing what you've been told, which appears to be highly insulting to you. I expect you to read Hoke's book. I'm not interested in the reasons why you think that's not necessary--I'm only interested in hearing you say you're reading the book. If you can't tell the readers that you are, you're wasting your time here. 

The next thing I want to hear you say is it makes sense to you. When that happens, all the questions you expect to have answered (I call that being spoon fed) will have answered themselves, then we can concentrate on the things that are puzzling for you. 

I have no patience with ANYONE that refuses to read Hoke's book, and even less patience with anyone that begins refining without an understanding of proper testing, working without stannous chloride, or the ability to discern one metal form another when they do test. All of that is in Hoke's book----and places you on an even footing with those of us that have experience. 

I learned to refine without having one person to advise me on what to do and how to do it. I had never studied chemistry, nor did I have a clue how metals were purified. Everything I know I learned from books and the school of hard knocks. If a moron like me can do it, are you telling me a person that claims to know how to study can't? I was born at night----but it wasn't last night. 

There---I've said my piece, too. Now get off your lazy butt and read Hoke, and absorb its contents. Then we'll have something to talk about.

Harold

edit: Answer this, if you can. 

How many times do you think I, or any of us that contribute on a regular basis, should have to restate the same information, over and over again, when all of it is in print, free for the taking, in Hoke's book?


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## lmschers (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks Harold, even for the berating (if any of that was aimed at me, I haven't done any stannous tests).
I have read Hoke a lot in the past couple weeks.
And from Hoke I decided to use sodium hydroxide, nitric, then AR... but I must have not gotten rid of the nitric very well.
And then I just wanted to try the AP route because the consensus seemed to be that it was better.
But since this AP route is new... I guess no one's completely sure.
So for this green solution, I let the HCL and H2O2 mixture completely evaporate into a crust.
Which I was pretty sure was a bad idea. But I wasn't sure why.
After some thought and re reading, I think that that crust would be a fused platinum and Chlorine salt.
And since palladium is like nickel and nickel is green in nitric, then maybe adding the ammonium would have provided enough nitrogen to take the palladium into solution, making it green...
leaving me still with a platinum chloride kind of salt that i should probably just redissolve...
anyway...
I'll test it.

That makes sense to me.
(kinda ...


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 13, 2010)

snglstack said:


> I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.



I agree with much of what you say. It annoys me also when someone just says, "Read Hoke", or some similar statement, especially without giving a link where you can download it. When I say this, one particular member comes to mind. However, you'll find that we moderators and a few others try to explain things in detail or, at least, provide links to the right info. This forum grew so fast that it quickly got out of hand and no one really had the time to properly organize it.


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## 4metals (Dec 13, 2010)

For all of the complaining about the information found here I challenge anyone to find a better resource where members freely give of their time to explain things, often over and over, for little or no gain. 

I'll be honest, I know this stuff cold and I've learned that the more you know the more options there are to do it differently. Does that lead to confusion? For some I'm sure it does but there are basic foundations that need to be in place for anyone to learn this stuff. Hoke happens to have put them in a concise format which is available for download on this site. Personally I think it is a great starting point. 

Basic refining is really not too difficult if you don't read too much into it. For example aqua regia can be mixed as 1:3 or 1:4. Wow, that can be viewed as confusing. Or it can be seen as saying there is a degree of latitude a refiner has in making aqua regia, it will work anywhere in that range. It will also work in much lower ratios but that is something you learn from experimenting with it. 

I didn't have the benefit of Hoke when I learned this stuff and I learned from experimenting with the basics. Years later when I did read Hoke, I found she did a wonderful job writing a book for non technical people who were not trained to be chemists.

I hate to pile it on here but everything is on this forum already, and criticism of those who took the time to post these methods isn't going to get you many bonus points.


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## dtectr (Dec 13, 2010)

I spent over 15 years in the janitorial/custodial industry. I devoured every piece of literature available on products & practices. I spent hundreds of hours in discussion with product reps, manufacturers, even with the chemists that developed & produced the products I used, & I viewed & treated these professionals with the respect that they had earned & deserved. They were, quite literally, the difference between success & failure for me. My success meant that my family was cared for & my financial obligations met.

I then put into practice the new things I’d learned. At first, progress was slow - I took jobs that really ate my lunch, sometimes. But before I had finished, I learned why things went south & what I could do to prevent that from happening again. Sometimes the answer was never to take that kind of job again. Those lessons are burned into my brain, which is why I became so good at what I did. (I shut down my business for health reasons 5 years ago, & the poor guy that got my phone number after I shut it off still gets calls from my old customers).

However, every year, they were countless new “Janitorial Contractors” who thought they could make an easy buck, since all they had to do was buy a mop bucket & a floor machine & “Ouila’!” they were now professionals. 
“Yesterday I couldn’t even spell “janitor” & today I are one!!”

Of course, since they didn’t want to do any studying or hard work, since they didn’t respect the industry or the customers. They would muddy the waters for a while, taking jobs that they had neither the skills nor the experience to execute successfully, and of course, they were out of business in less than a year. 

But, in the meantime, they had taken money out of the hands of persons who had invested years in learning the trade, & food out of the mouths of their families. I even had some of them call me up & try to get me to divulge knowledge that it had taken me a decade to learn so they could continue to take away business!

The problem with these “fly by nighters” was that they were _*LAZY*_, they thought that were _*ENTITLED*_ to money with no commensurate investment in time & training, and they had _*NO RESPECT *_for those who had made such an investment.

As I’ve stated before on this forum, what I am learning here has the potential to allow me to care for my family, & though no one is obligated to do so, the members here continue to share their scores of years of experience with me, & countless others, for which I feel truly indebted. 

I guess Aretha was right: “R-E-S-P-E-C-T”
Just my dos centavos.


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## lmschers (Dec 13, 2010)

@4metals so... if you know everything cold, could you give me a yes or no on the green stuff? or ideas maybe... there were crystals of ammonium chloride on the bottom of the beaker, i had a really saturated solution... learning by hard knocks here... reading constantly.

@dtectr sweet... life story time. i love this thread. how did we even get here? 

hi, my name's luke. i've gotten star wars jokes since i was born, coincidentally i wish i was force sensitive.
i'd settle for a light saber. 
(preferrably one made from aluminum oxide crystals fused around thick copper coils and powered by a large gyroscopically moving neodymium magnet.... i'm not saying it would cut through anything, but technically i think it should glow... and you could do that all with a fresnell lens, by my calculations)

i'm also a badass at magic the gathering and secretly wish i was a planeswalker.
(you probably would too if you knew what i was talking about)

i got an english/theater degree a few years ago and it promptly got me a job waiting tables. i was so friggin good in shakespeare productions... why didn't corporate america love me? then i did some valet, drove limousines, and then managed a parking garage. 
just to pay for astronomical rent and ridiculous fees, taxes, and insurance.
thanks america! of course i could have paid for more school or taught high school in the styx, but that would have sucked...

anyway, i jumped ship. the bubble popped. i knew a guy in thailand and flew over here and now i'm a university professor of 18-21 yr old asian school girls in uniforms. 
teaching is a great racket. in the past, the teachers here churned out countless students that, after 4 years, still couldn't speak english.
I'm doing my best to rectify that. and so i totally understand people that want to be filled with knowledge without learning.
if i could get these idiot girls to stop texting in the middle of class, they might actually impress their parents with a sentence or two. 
everyone wishes the answers were easier, welcome to the world of high technology... or at least computers.
hell, even the alchemists thought that someone had figured it out long ago and if they translated enough texts, they'd find all the secrets.
personally, learning is a lot more fun for me if i think of it as a game.

so... back to chemistry. i want to refine platinum wire for electrolysis, because i have a chance to go to Ethiopia in 4 months and stay with a friend who's an engineer with the government. and recycling is better than bad... actually it's good.
i want to do solar powered electrolysis of brine. 
i want to have that shit down pat. 
because ... in order to fight ignorance and work some real magic, i gots to know just about everything. 
and the platinum mines seem to suck pretty hard. i mean... they SUCK. 
(of course they're not in Ethiopia, but... one country at at time) 
electrolysis is where it's at: free soap and bathroom cleaner from the ocean... sounds good to me.
i've been sucking up everything i can from the net, and it's led me here.
i could just buy some wire... but i'm not.

am i crazy? 
yes... i walk around my house in nothing but rubber gloves and underwear while playing with acid and jamming out to the stones.
do i care? 
no, because i have a purpose.


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## Anonymous (Dec 13, 2010)

snglstack said:


> I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.



Ok I finally counted to ten before deciding what to post about this(actually I counted to about a million!)
Most of you that know who I really am,know that my natural instinct is to rip this guy a new one,actually it's more like hijack his computer and ruin his world........BUT, a few of my friends have been working with me,that is why I have waited so long to reply and I am going to try a different route....
snglstack, looking at your post (from a different standpoint than my normal one) it just sounds like you are frusterated.I can understand that.I hope you read the replies to your post and realize that you can't just post your frustrations in haste.Patience is a huge part of processing,and if you run into a problem,then patience plays an even bigger role.I promise you that ALL the information you need to know is either in hoke's book, http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2480
or here on the forum.None of us got to where we are by someone else doing this for us.We had to learn what we know(thank you to all who contributed to me and the forum).I hope that you will stay and learn what you need to know,if you do not then I fear you may end up hurt,or end up pouring out your precious metals because something went wrong and you weren't sure how to fix it.Whatever your decision is,I wish you the best of luck,and I hope that you have calmed down before you post again.


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## Harold_V (Dec 14, 2010)

lmschers said:


> Thanks Harold, even for the berating (if any of that was aimed at me, I haven't done any stannous tests).


Do you also operate a motor vehicle without eyesight?
Without stannous chloride, you have no clue, and you're not likely to get one. I sure as hell wouldn't rely on the opinion of others when I needed to know what my solution contained. I would trust my own tests, not the unfounded opinion of others. The question you keep asking will answer itself when you apply stannous chloride. What's holding you back? 

These are the kinds of things that make me sorry for trying to help. What do you want? Is it help? You've been given help---you were told to test with stannous chloride. That's what each of us would do if we had your question in our own labs. 

If you're waiting for someone to answer your question, so you can avoid learning how to test your own solutions----that is surprisingly like being spoon fed. At some point in time you simply must apply yourself and do the things that are necessary for you to become successful as a refiner. Testing is a huge leap towards that objective. 

This thread has been very enlightening for me. From this day forward, I will have nothing to offer those that do not read Hoke, and do not understand and apply testing. Why should I? All it does in encourage those with an entitlement attitude. I firmly believe there is no free lunch, and I'm not going to encourage those that think otherwise. 

Read Hoke, and understand how to test----or you need not apply. 

Harold


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## lmschers (Dec 14, 2010)

um... dude i said thanks in my last post. and i took the stannous convo to heart, it makes sense. i mean... i'm tossing ideas out to the forum but also gonna make some stannous and test with it. i tried to make a fun and also honest post to decrease the levity around here. do i operate a vehicle without eyesight? please ...
i'm not the one who showed up and copped an attitude, i'm the one who showed up and read hoke and went to work. i read it online and took notes, and i keep going back to it. to be fair, it was a bit aggravating to read from scribed. and i just got to download it and print it out thanks to that last post. i also read wichers and gilcrhist, and i'd read the ninth international congress if i could find it online. 

what's holding me back from testing? i tried to melt some unmarked solder wire i happened to have here in boiling HCl last night, but it didn't dissolve. so i'll go to the chem department and just get pure powder. in the past two days i also had to fix my motorcycle and start work again... 
and might i mention here that NOTHING happens fast in thailand. it's taken me months to assemble all the stuff i needed to even start this.

and unfounded opinions of others? well i'm trying to find someone who's doing the same thing as me. i was looking for slightly founded answers... so i've been following a lot of lazersteve's advice because he says that he's done this. so far i haven't read that anyone else has actually gotten platinum out of cats, i certainly could be missing that literature, but i've got a lot to read. you yourself said that you gave up on them because they were too much trouble.

am i waiting for someone to answer my question...? 
no sir, i'm not. 
it'd be nice to find someone on the same page though.
anyone out there actually crushing these things and trying to extract platinum with acid?
anyone want to skype? PM me.

as an update, the precipitate that i got from the method of sodium hydroxide, then nitric with H2o2, and then AR with H2O2... that precipitate was half orange half yellow, now it's all orange and goey. so i'm hopeful.


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## Oz (Dec 14, 2010)

WOW,

I kinda think I am done on this thread. Seems counterproductive to say anything anymore let alone refining advice. No hard feelings to anyone here, just my mindset.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 14, 2010)

lmschers said:


> um... dude i said thanks in my last post. and i took the stannous convo to heart, it makes sense. i mean... i'm tossing ideas out to the forum but also gonna make some stannous and test with it. i tried to make a fun and also honest post to decrease the levity around here. do i operate a vehicle without eyesight? please ...
> i'm not the one who showed up and copped an attitude, i'm the one who showed up and read hoke and went to work. i read it online and took notes, and i keep going back to it. to be fair, it was a bit aggravating to read from scribed. and i just got to download it and print it out thanks to that last post. i also read wichers and gilcrhist, and i'd read the ninth international congress if i could find it online.
> 
> what's holding me back from testing? i tried to melt some unmarked solder wire i happened to have here in boiling HCl last night, but it didn't dissolve. so i'll go to the chem department and just get pure powder. in the past two days i also had to fix my motorcycle and start work again...
> ...



Do a search on the user Rusty and see what he has accomplished with cat's, he is not finished with the process but Ifeel it might help you out.

And calm the attitude, the path you are going down will get you removed from the forum. And for your safety you need the forum and it's info.


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## lmschers (Dec 14, 2010)

to be clear, i'm not talking about herold copping an attitude, i was talking about snaggle.
herold seems frustrated and has always just tried to help.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Dec 14, 2010)

lmschers said:


> to be clear, i'm not talking about herold copping an attitude, i was talking about snaggle.
> herold seems frustrated and has always just tried to help.



You are correct, my confusion. Sorry I haven't had any sleep for a couple of days.


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## lazersteve (Dec 14, 2010)

If you want to see proof that the processes I have outlined several times for you and many others, simply buy my DVD Fundamentals of Platinum and Palladium and you can witness first hand the entire process of me recoverying PGMs from cats from harvesting to melting the final button and all steps in between. I have successfully extracted PGMs from cats on many occasions using the processes I demonstrate and write about.

You can get the DVD from:

http://goldrecovery.us/pricing.asp

The DVD demonstrates in full motion video the processes I have already outlined for you above and elsewhere. It's up to you to accurately follow the instructions I have provided. The more steps you omit or alter, the less likely you are to see the same results I produce on a regular basis. PGMs are indeed a different animal to porcess than gold or silver. They require more attention to details like concentrations of solutions, extraction times, and temperatures. They also require more patience as most of them do not dissolve as easily as gold and silver do.

I can tell you that you will need a known good solution of stannous chloride and 1% DMG (see full spelling above and receipe in General Reaction list sticky post) for the best results when working with PGMs. You will also need patience when extracting, filtering, and precipitating the resultling solutions.

Steve


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## TK Rose (Dec 16, 2010)

Harold_V said:


> ... it even gives some basic guidelines on silver, although it is treated with little respect by Hoke. That's due, in part, to its relatively low value at the time of the writing of the book ($1.29/oz official valuation at the time).



I'm sure you meant, depending on what year Ms. Hoke penned the book, 35¢-45¢/ozt.


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## Harold_V (Dec 17, 2010)

TK Rose said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > ... it even gives some basic guidelines on silver, although it is treated with little respect by Hoke. That's due, in part, to its relatively low value at the time of the writing of the book ($1.29/oz official valuation at the time).
> ...


Official valuation of silver for coinage in the US was based on silver @ $1.29/oz. , with the value of each coin based on silver content. The alloy for coinage in the US is stated to be 900 fine silver, with the balance being copper. Therefore, ten dimes weigh the same as a silver dollar, as do four quarters or two halves. Only when silver became an official commodity did that change. 

If I am misinformed, I'd be pleased to read anything you care to offer to enlighten me. I like being properly informed. 

Harold


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 17, 2010)

It was certainly never $.35-$.45.

I don't have my coin books here, but I know that the gold price was held constant at $20.67/ozT for, I'm thinking, about 100 years.That makes a $20 gold piece contain .96758 ozT of gold. At the same time, silver was held constant at, I'm thinking, $1.29, as Harold said. That gives a Au/Ag ratio of 16/1. For some reason, though, I seem to remember that the ratio was 15/1. However, that would make the silver price during that time to be $1.38. This works, since there are .723 ozT of Ag in a face value dollar of 90% quarters, dimes, or halves - $1/.723ozT= $1.38/ozT.

Maybe they changed it to $1.29 at some point. I know that was the constant price in about 1967. Maybe someone can straighten this out.


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## TK Rose (Dec 17, 2010)

> It was certainly never $.35-$.45.


GSP this is the second time in my 2 posts you have disputed my claims, this isn't going to be a trend is it?
I certainly hope not, as this is a nice place to discuss the refining of precious metals, and learn a few things in the process.

Source: U.S.G.S. Metal Prices in the United States through 1998


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## Platdigger (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr. or Mrs. Rose,
with all respect, I am very certain GSP is not singling you out.


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## Oz (Dec 17, 2010)

The key to this is whether one uses the official fixed price of the US dollar as defined by the acts of Congress (the silver content of the dollar coin) or the floating market price. They were often very different, in fact in 1873 the US actually had to demonetize silver for a while due to new silver discoveries in the west plunging the free market price of silver. This is why we had the Trade Dollar intended as a business strike only and contained more silver, hence a lower silver price per dollar.

Looking at the coins in as minted masses and purity...
1794-1795 Flowing hair $ –--- 416grains mass, .8924pure Ag, for 371.24grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1795-1803 Draped bust $--------416grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 374.4grains or .780Toz = $1.2820 per Toz
1836-1839 Gobrecht $------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1840-1873 Seated liberty $ -412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1873-1878 Trade Dollar------------420grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 378grains or .7875Toz = $1.2698 per Toz
1878-1904 Morgan $---------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1921 Morgan $---------------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1921-1928 Peace $-----------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1934-1935 Peace $-----------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1986 to-- Silver eagle $-------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Troy oz = $1.0000 per Toz

Now even with these numbers it must be remembered that silver dollar minting was changed as to content and stopped multiple times because the silver value contained was lower or higher in the free market place. Several times in US history silversmiths would get their silver from coins as the cheapest source. This is why we see damaged “coin silver” silversmithed items come in as scrap even today.

Now the US “official price” for gold is still set at $42.22 dollars. I will buy all the gold and silver you can get at these gold and silver prices mandated by the US government. Wrapping up though, from the issuance of the 1878 Morgan dollar until the 1935 Peace dollar the price of silver in "US silver dollars" as well as the paper dollars when exchanged for coin, was $1.2936

It is worth pointing out that in mint condition weights 10 dimes, or 4 quarters, or 2 half dollars, have a mass of only 25grams and contain 22.5grams of fine silver compared to the Morgan and Peace Dollars that have a mass of 26.73grams and contain 24.057grams of fine silver.

Well I have to go, I have some silver anodes I have to cast for silver cells.


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## Harold_V (Dec 19, 2010)

On April 2, 1792 a bill was passed providing that the money of the account of the United States should be expressed in dollars, or units, dismes (dimes), or tenths and it goes on to detail cents and tenths of cents. 

US Coinage, with rare exception, contains 90% silver and 10% copper. There are a few anomalies where that isn't true, but the net effect is for the coins to have a value based on the silver content, which was regulated for the sake of establishing value, by the government. It had nothing to do with the free market system, where it was often way out of sync. 

Dollars were to contain 371.25 grains of pure silver
Halves were to contain 185.625 grains of pure silver
Quarters were to contain 92.8125 grains of pure silver
Dimes were to contain 37.0625 grains pure silver

Clearly, the silver content is a constant in US coins----with ten dimes having the same content as a silver dollar. The slight variation amounts to only an error of 5/8ths of a grain in ten dimes in total (which would be an error of .0625 grain per dime). It should be noted that a troy ounce contains 480 grains. Gross irregularities are due to a variation in silver/copper ratio, with the exception of the trade dollar. 

Stats collected from A Guide Book of United States Coins, 32nd Edition, page 7.

Harold

Edit: note that I have corrected the amount of silver that is reputed to be in a silver dollar. Thanks, Oz.


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## Oz (Dec 19, 2010)

At a quick glance there is something really wrong with those numbers.

Dollars were to contain 317.25 grains of pure silver
Halves were to contain 185.625 grains of pure silver, X 2 that would be 371.25grains
Quarters were to contain 92.8125 grains of pure silver, X 4 that would be 371.24grains
Dimes were to contain 37.0625 grains pure silver, X10 that would be 370.625grains

All significantly higher that the stated silver in the dollar coin.


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## Harold_V (Dec 19, 2010)

Oz said:


> At a quick glance there is something really wrong with those numbers.
> 
> Dollars were to contain 317.25 grains of pure silver
> Halves were to contain 185.625 grains of pure silver, X 2 that would be 371.25grains
> ...


Sigh!

Oh, yeah. My dyslexia is what's wrong. I'm going to correct the first entry, which SHOULD read 371.25 grains, not 317.25 grains. 

Thanks, Oz.

Harold


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## Oz (Dec 19, 2010)

The mint act of April 2nd, 1792 has been superseded multiple times by acts of Congress that changed the fineness and mass of US coins. Most of us do not have uncirculated coins from some of these older mintages to weigh so perhaps this page I attached will help everyone understand some of these changes. It references all of the Acts of Congress that made these changes.

Note that the mass of halves, quarters, and dimes were reduced compared to the dollar.


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## Harold_V (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks, Oz. Very enlightening. 

Harold


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## TK Rose (Dec 20, 2010)

Oz said:


> The key to this is whether one uses the official fixed price of the US dollar as defined by the acts of Congress (the silver content of the dollar coin) or the floating market price.



True, and those in the industry, including Ms. Hoke, were/are held to market value for their metals, excluding gold. 

In later years re: early '60's the public took advantage of the market price of silver by exchanging Silver Certificates for the metal, and in turn selling the metal into the market at a profit and subsequently when market price was above $1.38 selling U.S. 90% coin into the market at a profit.
The same as several years ago with U.S. 'copper' (brass or bronze, depending on year) cents and nickels, until the practice was outlawed.

So as stated Hoke's dismissal of Ag was simply value related, the labor involved in refining the silver waste was not profitable for small scale operations her book was intended for.


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## Oz (Dec 20, 2010)

TK Rose said:


> True, and those in the industry, including Ms. Hoke, were/are held to market value for their metals, excluding gold.



I'm not sure if that was actually true. One of the mints main jobs was to coin money from gold and silver that was brought in to them from the public at large (including other nation's coin), at cost (no profit to the mint). I am not sure at what point the mints ceased to offer this service as I have lost huge amounts of my data due to a hard drive crash about a year ago. I do know that function of the Mints was alive and well in the 1840's gold rush and is what caused the opening of the San Francisco Mint. The Carson City mint was opened for the same reasons in order to service the great quantities of silver coming from the Comstock Lode nearby. The CC Mint operated from 1870-1893 minting coins, and after ceasing to mint coins continued as a US Assay office for some time thereafter.

I had mentioned earlier that when silver prices were higher in dollars than the content of a silver $1 coin that silversmiths would melt the coins down without further purification to make their wares and stamp them “coin silver” or .900 as it was the least expensive way to obtain their material.

Now think if the silver price is the $0.35-$0.45 you mentioned and you are reclaiming silver from refining jewelers scrap. Would you sell that silver into the market at 35-45 cents per ounce, or would you take it into a US mint to be coined into dollars “at cost”? Having dollar coin struck with your silver at a silver spot price of 35-45 cents per ounce would give you an instant increase of value that would double or more its worth.

As I said though I am missing the majority of my old monetary history documents now. If you have documents from a reliable source that show when the mints ceased taking in raw metal to be coined I would appreciate seeing it, as I now longer remember the cut-off date. It is frustrating remembering the majority of this but no longer having my documentation to check or show as reference.


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## jimdoc (Dec 20, 2010)

Some of these books may help;

http://www.archive.org/details/coinbookcomprisi00homa

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=us%20mint%20history


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## Oz (Dec 21, 2010)

Thank you for the links Jim, I will check them out.


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## TK Rose (Dec 21, 2010)

As the discussion has taken a turn to discussing American History, numismatics (Of which I have little knowledge, I am a metals man, not coin) I will acquiesce, thus, 

As a result of the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order 6814, nationalizing the nation’s hoard of privately owned non-monetary silver, and prohibiting private ownership of quantities exceeding 500 troy ounces. [1] Any amounts greater than this limit were to be surrendered to the U.S. government in exchange for U.S. silver certificates, minus a seigniorage (depending on the part of America in which you reside, this is known as vigorish, or 'tax') and manufacturing deduction of 61.32% [2].

With the value of silver certificates fixed to the redemption price of $1.2929 per troy ounce of silver, Americans only received fifty cents per troy ounce for the non-monetary silver they surrendered. Far from the $1.29 mentioned by members, and slightly more than the market price of Ag at the time of Hoke's writing her treatise. [3] At the time of the passing of the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, the actual market price for silver was approximately $.54 per troy ounce [4], so this arrangement worked to the slight advantage of the government. 

The Silver Purchase Act of 1946 was then passed, establishing the U.S. government as the largest purchaser of silver in the world. The government bought silver directly from all domestic producers at a price floor set at $.905 per troy ounce, above the equilibrium silver price of $.87 at the time. [5] (Under this act, the U.S. government also sold silver at $.91, with a $.005 spread.) Silver producers benefited from receiving above-market price from the government for their product, while the U.S. taxpayer was forced to buy silver above the market price.

By the early 1960’s, the actual market price of silver breached this artificial price threshold. The U.S. government ceased to be a net purchaser of the metal. It immediately became profitable to purchase silver from the government. Since the Act of 1946 forced the government to sell at a fixed price, any spot price above $.91 would present the opportunity to acquire silver from the U.S. government at a discount. The government became a net seller of silver, and the hoard accumulated as a result of the Silver Purchase Act of 1946 began to shrink. By the mid-1960’s, the U.S. government had a problem. With the nation’s silver reserves decreasing due to the growing discount on silver afforded by the $.91 per troy ounce price obligation, the government could no longer afford to affix the dollar to silver prices. Additionally, once the market price of silver reached $1.29 per troy ounce, the price floor for the redemption of silver certificates established by the Silver Purchase Act of 1934 would be breached. At prices above this level, consumers could begin to purchase the certificates at face value, redeem them for silver, and sell the silver at a profit.

With its seigniorage erased, and facing both the net monetary losses from the legal obligation to sell silver at below-market prices as well as the continued honoring of silver certificates, the prospects that the nation’s silver supply would be exhausted became a threat to national security. The Treasury repealed the function of the original Silver Purchase Act of 1934 through a series of legislation between 1961 and 1963, and began pulling U.S. silver certificates from circulation. [6] By 1968, no more silver certificates could be redeemed. In 1966, the market price of silver reached the magic number of $1.38 per troy ounce. With a 90% silver quarter containing .1808 troy ounces, the U.S. government would be losing money, not only in the continued manufacturing but also through a shrinkage of the money supply due to speculators melting down the coins for profit. 


1. 2. 3. http://www.conservativeusa.org/eo/1934/eo6814.htm

4. 5. http://www.goldmastersusa.com./silver_historical_prices.asp

6.. http://www.silverinstitute.org/19601965.php


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## lmschers (Dec 29, 2010)

So... This is all very interesting but totally over my head.
I should find the prices for silver over here now. 
There are lots of touristy markets in Bangkok with 92.7% silver jewelry. I want to make a silver cell and test some of it.
It's supposed to be cheap if I go to the markets at the Burmese border.
I'm in Thailand by the way, any recommendations on melting their money and selling it for profit? 
I wonder how well it's refined in the first place...
The funny thing is that the 10 bhat coin (about 33 American cents by today's rates) looks very much like the 2 Euro coin.
So if you take a handful of them to Europe, you can spend them at roughly 8 times their value. 
People have told me that machines accept them.

And I'm still working on cat converters. My chemistry department can't get any pure tin for stannous though. I sent an email to the only tin smelting company in Thailand but they don't seem to care about selling a few grams... or even pounds. They never wrote back. 
I started with cat converters in the first place though because big ones with two honeycombs cost me about 15 USD if i buy them from a dude down the road.
Harddrives are also cheap, 75 cents or so. If I was going to work on gold, I think I would start with the pins on them. Does that sound like it would be worth it?

Through the university library, I accessed "Scifinder," an online database of scientific papers, and I got Gilchrest's 1934 Platinum paper. He mentioned that even a small presence of rhodium will turn a solution of PGMs and ammonium chloride green. I think that would explain what I've got back there in my picture. If anyone wants that paper, PM me. Also, if you have any recommendations for scientific papers, let me know. I was trying to find a good paper that explained H202's affinity for Nitrogen in nitric acid.
I talked to Rusty (very cool) and he gave me a huge book on electroplating that I will start reading soon. It's a monster. So many books to print... if my portable harddrive crashes, I'll cry.
Right now, I'm reading Sir Humphry Davy's book. It's from 1812 or so and it was a free downloadable google e-book. I'm reading that to try to understand chlorate cells better and perchlorate and chlorine. (and nitrous oxide too 

--On a side note. I just finished reading the Kybalion and wish I could get Robert Fludd's alchemical drawings because they're really neat. But the guy over at alchemywebsite.com still hasn't emailed me back either.... anyone into alchemy? Check out darkbooks.org. It's awesome. You can download a lot of books on magic and alchemy. Lots of fun reads.--


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## patnor1011 (Dec 30, 2010)

lmschers said:


> So... This is all very interesting but totally over my head.
> I should find the prices for silver over here now.
> There are lots of touristy markets in Bangkok with 92.7% silver jewelry. I want to make a silver cell and test some of it.
> It's supposed to be cheap if I go to the markets at the Burmese border.
> ...



Not anymore. It was around few years ago and I tried that too out of curiosity but even then when I tried it worked in 1 in 10 of them. One of my friends is making jukebox machines so he was encountering many attempts to use different coins instead of proper money. What I saw more often is that people were trying to pass them on shops or where cash was involved and sometimes you can get that from shopkeeper as change...


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## lmschers (Dec 30, 2010)

yeah, lord knows what kind of sensors are in different machines. i've never tried it.
you're right though, it would make more sense to just toss them into a handful of change and people probably wouldn't notice much.
the thing is... it's practically the same coin, right? just stamped differently.
I mean, I think they're made the same way; by machine pressing the metal.
I don't know what the ratios and alloys are though.
there's a wikipedia page explaining what metals are in them, but not the amounts.
anyway... its not exactly a get rich scheme, it's just kind of funny.


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## patnor1011 (Dec 31, 2010)

Its not nice to do that. I was stuck one time when I was about to pay for parking and machine did not wanted to accept that coin. I tried few more times then I checked that coin and it was not 2 euro coin. I was pretty piss*d as I had to go out to look for ATM to get money to pay for parking. :evil:


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## wade brenckle (Jul 29, 2012)

Looks like this subject has been dead awhile. After reading %90 of it, I feel like most of the Q's I wanted to ask, but was hesatant to, I should have asked! :roll:


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## mike59 (Aug 10, 2012)

Hi everyone,

I want to start by saying that you people are doing an amassing job with this forum. It is and endless source of information.

That being said, I would like to reactivate the original question hoping that people wont make fun of me. So, I am Canadian and I really cannot find a way to get the nitric acid or the components I could use to prepare it. Everyplace single place which sells nitric acid or nitrates (Potassium Nitrate, Sodium Nitrate, etc) does not sell to individuals. All of them post a notice with "RESTRICTED COMPONENTS REGULATIONS OF THE EXPLOSIVES ACT".

I'm also quite sure that is illegal to bring the staff across the border from the south.

I would appreciate some advice.


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## Geo (Aug 10, 2012)

mike59 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I want to start by saying that you people are doing an amassing job with this forum. It is and endless source of information.
> 
> ...



try this.http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=14970
our founding member may be able to help you out.


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