# Precipitation of gold from poor man AR



## Mcnew32(Ag) (Sep 8, 2015)

hello, need a little guidance here fellas. I started with just under 4 grams of gold fingers that was contaminated with other materials such as dirt, stickers, and other things like that. I used muratic acid+ bleach method to dissolve gold foils. I added just enough bleach in increments to dissolve the foils. Once I dissolved all foils, I then accidentally used an aluminum screen with filter paper to catch all solids. I did not neutralize the excess acid in the mixture before filtering so the mixture reacted with the aluminum screen resulting in black particles in my solution. I then registered the liquid through a plastic screen and filter paper. I ended up with a very watered down solution about a gallon of liquid. After I filtered I tested solution and added SMB. The solution like usual turned from a lime green/yellowish liquid to a clear liquid then turned very dark, usually indicating the dropping out of the gold particles. The problem is that it has been sitting for about 3 hours and hasn't shown a sign of layering in the liquid. Meaning the liquid has not started to turn clean from the top down. If anyone has an idea please let me know. Didn't want to just keep adding SMB quite yet before I had Some consultancy.


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## MarcoP (Sep 8, 2015)

You didn't mention any deNOxing, a little sulfamic acid will make sure you deNOx and then a drop of Stannous will tell you if there is still gold in solution, luckily is not too late yet.


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## Mcnew32(Ag) (Sep 8, 2015)

Ah yes. I will try this. Thank you.


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## martyn111 (Sep 8, 2015)

MarcoP said:


> You didn't mention any deNOxing, a little sulfamic acid will make sure you deNOx and then a drop of Stannous will tell you if there is still gold in solution, luckily is not too late yet.



MarcoP why would he need to de nox a solution of acid / bleach? no nox present.

With acid / bleach, heating will be all that is needed to drive off any excess chlorine as a gas (the active ingredient in dissolving gold) from the bleach, use a gentle heat, hot solutions cannot hold as much gas as a cool /cold solution.


Mcnew32(Ag) The title of this thread is incorrect, Poorman's AR isn't acid / bleach,which is the process you describe in the thread.
Poorman's AR is HCl and a nitrate salt (sodium nitrate / potassium nitrate etc.) which produces a crude type of aqua regia (AR)
As a side note, the black particles in your solution after you filtered through the aluminium screen were probably dirty gold, precipitated because of metal replacement in solution (cementing out is the popular phrase used here on the forum).


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## Mcnew32(Ag) (Sep 8, 2015)

Thank you for clearing that up for me. So that process would be acid peroxide (AP). I have used this process before and had no problem with the precipitation of the gold with SMB but this time it turned colors just like every other time but just stayed dark and there isn't any sign of the cementing of the gold.... Yet.


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## martyn111 (Sep 8, 2015)

Mcnew32(Ag) said:


> Thank you for clearing that up for me. So that process would be acid peroxide (AP). I have used this process before and had no problem with the precipitation of the gold with SMB but this time it turned colors just like every other time but just stayed dark and there isn't any sign of the cementing of the gold.... Yet.



AP is acid peroxide not acid bleach.

AP is used in recovery, you don't dissolve gold with AP (or at least that isn't the purpose, although too much peroxide can dissolve a small amount of gold) you dissolve base metal (copper) to release gold foils from plated items such as fingers.

Acid bleach is used to dissolve gold which appears to be what you are doing, heating the solution will serve the same purpose as sulphamic acid would serve in poormans AR or traditional AR, it removes the ingredient that actually dissolves the gold (in your case the chlorine gas) enabling you to precipitate your gold without it re-dissolving and precipitating constantly until your chlorine gas is used up.


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## Mcnew32(Ag) (Sep 8, 2015)

Thank you for your replies! I just wanted to say that I am terribly sorry for getting these processes confused. I have studied and have process gold a few times before and getting these process mixed up is no excuse because of the health hazards associated with all chemical processing. I do not know why I just jumped straight to the forum for help without even taking the time to think this through. I wanted to apologize and thank all of you for being patient and not jumping to the typical you should have studied more attitude. I assure you these processes will not be mixed up again.


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## butcher (Sep 8, 2015)

Filtering the solution through an aluminum screen.
Aluminum will also take the hydrogen from your acids.

I suspect the aluminum may have reduced the gold from solution, you may not have much, or any gold in solution. Stannous chloride test is important, without it you have no idea where the gold is.

I just have to jump onto the you should study more attitude bandwagon, losing your gold and making mistakes is a hard way to learn.
The time studying can mean less problems, and more gold in your melting dish.


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## MarcoP (Sep 9, 2015)

martyn111 said:


> MarcoP said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't mention any deNOxing, a little sulfamic acid will make sure you deNOx and then a drop of Stannous will tell you if there is still gold in solution, luckily is not too late yet.
> ...


Somehow his "I did not neutralize the excess acid in the mixture" overwrote what I did read ... sowwy I should have taken the time to re-read. In that case gently heating the mixture would get rid of the bleach in excess.

Marco


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## MarcoP (Sep 9, 2015)

... and the thread title it self did also contribute to my mistake. If I'm not wrong, HCl/Bleach is not poor man AR, a chlorine source with a nitrate salt is. 

Marco


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## Pantherlikher (Sep 9, 2015)

Hello Mcnew32(Ag) and welcome.
Please use more time in this forum to study 1 process at a time. Not reading all and trying to do what you want from memory.
You titled this thread wrong which causes problems as noted. Then, instead of using A/P to remove all base metals first; then HCL+ bleach method to dissolve your tiny amount of gold.

4 grams of fingers is what? A couple few fingers? I have used A/P on hundreds of fingers and only have a small amount of gold leaf flakes in a vile next to me as a reminder to be patient and learn from A to Z, start to complete finish, the process I wish to use. 

You used Aluminum to drop your tiny amount of gold and it stuck to anything and everything including Aluminum and copper and nickle and anything else that might have dropped. 

My suggestion is to evaporate as much water as you can and save anything that you have after the Aluminum (accident self made).

Meant time, read up and learn HCL+ bleach method of refining what gold you may have. My guess is your gold is attached to any solids you filtered after your "accident". But evaporate your solution down and test to make sure. Then properly dispose of used, barren solution.
Save solids for when you learn what process you wish to use.

It gets confusing trying to work from memory or scribbled notes if you have not stuck with 1 process and read the steps completely untill you know for sure, with no accidents, what your next step is and what will happen

Good luck and hopefully, you will at least see some very clean dust of gold.

B.S.


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## rickbb (Sep 9, 2015)

Also with only 4 grams of fingers to start with you will yield so little gold powder that you may not see it in a dirty solution.


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## bswartzwelder (Sep 9, 2015)

I was going to mention the amount of gold being processed, but rickbb beat me to the gun. Four grams of fingers would only yield a very tiny amount of gold.


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## jason_recliner (Sep 10, 2015)

I'm going to throw out a rough number; maybe in the order of around 10 milligrams of gold from 4 grams of fingers.
That fifty cents or so may not be a major loss. But if from your studies you are able to actually recover it, you have the opportunity to gain valuable experience.


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## Anonymous (Sep 10, 2015)

4g of fingers = approx. 0.018g of gold assuming they are clean cut and standard thickness of plating. Data from my own yields over three years of processing this stuff. Hope it's of some help. 

As has been quite rightly mentioned you'd probably struggle to even see the gold powder. 

Jon


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## lanfear (Sep 10, 2015)

Mcnew32(Ag) said:


> I started with just under 4 grams of gold fingers that was contaminated with other materials such as dirt, stickers, and other things like that.



He is probably saying he has 4 grams of foils from fingers. If he had contaminated fingers he could just wash it off..

Jon


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## Anonymous (Sep 10, 2015)

Hi Jon

I'm not making assumptions. So many folks do that on here and it often completely skews the advice beyond anything practical. He stated that he had 4 grams of fingers hence my (and not only my) comments.

Let's keep it clear mate, and not give advice based upon what we think he meant otherwise it gets all bent out of shape. Of course if you're correct in your assumption I will be the first to admit it but we have to take things at face value until we are corrected otherwise it just becomes a guess fest! 8) 8) 

Regards

Jon


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## rickbb (Sep 11, 2015)

He probably had even less than 4g of fingers, he did state it was "contaminated" with "dirt, stickers, and other stuff like that" which added to the weight.


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## Mcnew32(Ag) (Oct 1, 2015)

Hey guys, I am terribly sorry for the confusion, auto correct on this I phone can be very very frustrating. Instead of 4 grams of Fingers I meant 4 grams of Foils that was heavily contaminated. Quite a difference. I even re read over my post before I posted the thread and didn't catch it. Since I posted this thread I have reclaimed about 3 grams of gold solid. After melting down the powder caught in the filters. I will be re dissolving what I collected and processing it to .999 pure.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 1, 2015)

Don't melt it between refinings, it's much easier to dissolve it in powder form.

Göran


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## modtheworld44 (Oct 1, 2015)

g_axelsson said:


> Don't melt it between refinings, it's much easier to dissolve it in powder form.
> 
> Göran



g_axelsson

If I remember right,Mr.Harold_V has stated that if you know your going to do a second refining of your powders,you should go ahead and melt them to help oxidize off more of the contaminants prior to the second refine to help improve purity.Maybe he will see this and correct me if I'm wrong.



modtheworld44


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## Mcnew32(Ag) (Oct 1, 2015)

I do remember hearing that and I know that I'm HOkes book that is stated as well.


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