# Purple mud and solution



## Mountain Man (May 23, 2020)

Hello everyone,

I have been putting what I learned over the last 6 months or so to work and I must thank you all again for your help. It has truly been an eye opening and confidence building epereince. It is nice to feel like I am really getting it now and it is all because of your willingness to share your time and wealth of knowledge and experience. I have been having much more success now. Thank you. 

I have a question though. I have stopped using smb all together and use only copper powder. It was interesting in the beginning but now I am totally sold on it. All my solutions are now testing 0 for gold content after I recovered all the gold. It is fast, works awesome and easy to separate with nitric. 

Anyway, I had something I have not seen before. When I drop the gold not always but sometimes I get a purple/brown mud. Very heavy. I let it settle and have been washing it over and over. It is removing the purple cloud but the mud still has a purple color and so far I don't seem to be getting anywhere. I do not think I am losing any of the gold mud, but there is this purple color that seems to be the actual color of the mud. It is something that just started happening recently although I do think it has shown up in the past but I did not know what to do with it so it is gone except I have 2 beakers that have a fair amount of it in each beaker. 

Anyone know what it is or if it has gold mud mixed in with the purple or is it still the gold but purple?


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## jarlowski1 (May 23, 2020)

What was your feed stock?


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## Lino1406 (May 23, 2020)

Test again with nitric - supposed to be copper


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## Mountain Man (May 24, 2020)

I have been trying a new to me technique where I use AR to strip the gold off of gold plated fittings, pins, top plates from cpus. Basically anything gold plated. I use low dose mixture of nitric and muriatic. That way it runs out of the nitric before it dissolves all the base metals. Twice now I have ended up with a heavy mud that has purple color to it. I use pure nitric to refine it like I do the others materials I process. When I add the nitric to other batches it immediately reacts and attacks all the base metals just as I would expect. When I do the same to the purple mud it has no reaction of any kind. After rinsing the material many times it still is purple mud. Not the solution but the mud. During the rinsing process there is some purple coloration in the rinse water that looks like salts but the end result after lots of rinsing is still purple mud. 

Any idea's?


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## FrugalRefiner (May 24, 2020)

I have two thoughts, but I don't know if either one is right.

Colloidal gold can be purple. Since it is metallic gold, nitric wouldn't react to it. AR would dissolve it.

Silver chloride can turn purple when exposed to light. It also wouldn't react to nitric. You can confirm/rule out silver chloride by exposing a small sample to strong sunlight. If it darkens/turns black it would be silver chloride.

Just guessing on both.

Dave


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## jarlowski1 (May 24, 2020)

Just a suggestion why don't you make a sulfuric stripping cell for that material. Just a thought


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## Mountain Man (May 24, 2020)

The sulfuric stripping cell is how I have been doing it since I got involved with gold recovery. However, I have not had good luck with it and I don't know why. It strips fine, but when it is time to smelt it has never worked. I must be missing a step or something. I used ammonia in the past to remove base metals but it did not do very well either in removing the base metals. I think the black powder was contaminated and possibly the gold was colloidal. I was considering doing that process again but I wanted to see if I could do it with AR. 

I have heard mixed expectations with the sulfuric method. Anywhere from 3 grams per pound to 3 grams per ounce. I have not had very good luck with the process but I am certain it is something I am missing in the recovery phase although I am very detail oriented and can't seem to isolate why I can't get it into gold form again. Any thoughts?


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## Mountain Man (May 24, 2020)

As far as exposing it to strong sunlight, it has actually be sitting on the window sill of my gold production out building for several days and has been exposed to strong sunlight and it has had no effect on it. It still remains purple and is a very fine mud. Much finer than the gold powder when it is ready to smelt. If it is colloidal gold what do I do with it or can it be smelted the way it is?


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## jarlowski1 (May 24, 2020)

With any type of material you will certainly have different yields and especially if you are just mixing all different types of material versus what you may have read that individual could have been stripping just 1 type of material. The black slime after you are done with the batch should be separated from the sulphuric acid whether by means of letting it settle (will take a long time since sulphuric acid is viscous) or by diluting it with water and letting that settle out. Then you should refine this by AR or Hcl/Bleach and precipitate with your choice method. The precipitated powder should then be washed as per the outlined wash method on this forum (I believe Harold had a thread about this somewhere). Now if it were mine I would refine it once more but at this stage you could melt it and end up with 99.5 gold. Washing the powder is extremely important in order to obtain fine gold.


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## jarlowski1 (May 24, 2020)

I probably would incinerate your powder and refine it from there. Incineration takes place with the powder being heated up to red hot but do not melt it, then let it cool back down and refine it with AR or Hcl/Bleach. You might also want to try precipitating with Smb on this refine. Anyone else agree on this course of action?


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## kurtak (May 24, 2020)

Hmmm - not exactly sure - but bases on your feedstock ((starting material) it sound like you are having a problem with stannic tin (not the same thing as the stannous chloride we use for testing gold in solution)

Lets see if we can solve the problem (&/or if I am right)

First - how much (gold) mud are we talking about ? --- just a couple/few grams - or 7 - 10 or more grams (doesn't need to be a "dry" weight - just a "guess" still wet - based on other drops you have done) 

If its only 2 or 3 grams - re-dissolve it what AR - once re-dissolved - is the solution "a bit" cloudy &/or after letting sit for awhile for settling is there some whitish/yellowish sediment settling in the bottom of your beaker --- if its more then just a few grams - then first run this test with a few grams to see if (as I suspect) it's a stannic tin problem

Kurt


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## Mountain Man (May 27, 2020)

Sorry Guys. I have been away from my computer for a day or so. 

Okay, I tried the nitric only on the purple powder and it did absolutely nothing. No reaction of any kind. I then washed the mud again and removed the nitric so I had a fresh start. 

I then reintroduced it (the powder) back into a AR fresh solution. I immediately turned yellow and clear meaning no powders or anything. Just yellow. I did a Stanous test and it shows saturated with gold color. (Black and Purple in the test). I am now going to neutralize the solutions and drop with copper powder. 

Does that sound like a right plan to follow?


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## FrugalRefiner (May 27, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> I am now going to neutralize the solutions and drop with copper powder.
> 
> Does that sound like a right plan to follow?



What do you mean by "neutralize the solutions"? There is no need to neutralize AR prior to dropping the gold.

Dave


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## kurtak (May 28, 2020)

> I am going neutralize the solution and drop with copper powder



I hope you did not just go forward with that plan (in other words hope you are waiting for advice

First - as Dave said - "what do you mean by neutralize" ? --- please explain what/how you intend to do this

Second - are you "absolutely" sure the solution is clear

A solution can "look" clear under normal lighting

Stannic tin can be VERY ultra fine - so it may or NOT settle (meaning you may not see any of it settle) &/or it may take a day or more for "some" to settle

In other words - depending on how there is - it (some) may - or not settle --- & as well - depending on how much there may be - you may - or not see it as a cloudy solution - under normal lighting 

In order to make sure the solution is truly clear you want to shine a light through the beaker from the side of the beaker - then look through the solution/beaker from the front moving your head back & forth side to side (in other words different angles) to see if it shows even a "bit" of cloudy

Stannic tin is/can be a real problem for a refiner & it only takes a VERY small amount to be a problem - & a problem that will continue to follow you when you drop your gold unless (once you determine you have it) you deal with it to get rid of it --- & its not easy - but can be done 
This may - or not be a stannic tin problem - we need to figure this out because you should not be getting a "purple mud" with your gold drop - even with copper

So don't get in a hurry - lets figure this out

Kurt


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## Mountain Man (Jun 9, 2020)

Hello, everyone, 

I apologize for not responding to your comments to help me with the problems I have been talking about. Most everything that has been discussed and suggested I have tried and nothing seems to help. 

Kurt, you made some interesting comments and suggestions and first let me apologize again for not being quick to respond back. Family issues that needed attention. 

Kurt, virtually everything you said was exactly what my results have been. The cloud in the rinse solutions. The gold mud, and everything else you said rings exactly spot on to what I am experiencing . I had to stop where I was to deal with some family issues and now I am ready to figure this out. I did not try to do anything more with the batches I started. 4 to be exact, all gold plated material , I removed the gold from all, all ended up with a white mud. and I mean lots of it, all with orange mud, and some with black mud and some with brown mud, some with brown and black mud together, and some with purple. I personally feel like what you are saying is exactly what I have been going thru since I started trying to strip with AR. It sounds like a witches brew. I use HCL and Nitric. I was using sodium nitrate with HCL but I got tired of trying to remove what I believed was sodium. Anyway, that is where I am today. I have 6 or seven beakers, 1000 mltrs, with all the different colors of the rainbow in them. It is quite unique. lol So, what do you think? I am tired of losing gold to this mystery. 
Mountain Man, 
Kirk


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## Mountain Man (Jun 12, 2020)

Since I have been kind of hit and miss as far as responding to all of you I apologize for that. It really has been a tornado in my life as of late, but, I have a bunch of brown mud, purple mud and black mud to work thru. 

To answer the question from Kurt, "What is my feed stock, the answer is ceramic cpu's, fiber cpu's, gold plated metal that I stripped in ar solution. And I have started on the reverse electroplate items again since you told me that there is another step after it is stripped and washed. I did not know that I should be dissolving that in AR and then dropping it. Just when I think I am getting pretty good at this I find out I am no expert as of yet. Thank Goodness you all are here. If it wasn't for you all I would have thrown in the towel 4 years ago. So Thanks to you All for sharing your knowledge. 

So, the purple mud is the top of the list question. As I stated earlier. My feed stock is the following. 

Gold plated items, connectors, pins, ect. Stripped with AR solution, producing lots of orange mud, green mud, and some blue mud along with purple mud and brown mud after lots of washing. 

Ceramic and fiber cpu's stripped in separate batches of AR producing the same colors although really no purple mud in these batches. Some but very little. 

After settling the rinse water is still cloudy, not clear and is usually in the purple mud beaker but also is present in other colored mud (black, brown, orange although I believe the orange is copper.} I smelted a big batch of orange powder once and it came out as a big copper button. 

Mountain Man. 
Kirk


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## Mountain Man (Jun 12, 2020)

Hey Kurt, 

I apologize. You had asked me a question about what I meant when I said neutralize. I was specifically referencing AR solution and neutralizing the nitric acid in order to drop the gold. Is that not necessary? I have always thought that the Nitric had to be neutralized before you drop the gold from an AR solution. 

Thanks for your help. 
Kirk


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## Mountain Man (Jun 14, 2020)

I have not gone forward and neutralized the AR solution. As of now I have a 2000 mil., beaker with purple coloring in the solution and lots of mud settled on the bottom. 1/2 to 3/4 inch thick on the bottom of the 2000 mil beaker. 

I am very interested in knowing more about the stannic tin.


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 14, 2020)

As far as I know there is no need to neutralize the solution.
What you need, is to remove excess oxidizer like nitric Cl and such.
Then add smb, copperas or similar to precipitate the PMs.
In ordrer to work I think these compounds need acidic environment.

If you actually neutralize you will form hydroxides of differenet flavors.
Som of which may be a pain to handle.

*So please do as Dave (Frugalrefiner) said* explain what you intend to do and above all when the experienced people of the forum ask you something for clarification, it may be time well spent answering this.


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## Mountain Man (Jun 15, 2020)

When you say no need to neutralize the AR, you are actually saying no need to neutralize both acids, muriatic and nitric. Is that what you mean? If so, I then I need to state that what I mean is to use up or neutralize the nitric only. I do not neutralize the muriatic. Only the nitric. If I do not it will just keep the gold in a dissolved state and will never drop until the nitric is neutral. 

Is that what you mean? I use urea to disable the nitric and then I drop the gold with copper powder. I use to use SMB but I was always leaving gold behind. I prefer the copper powder. It works very well for me. 

I took the batch that was normal after dropping and rinsing and it had a lot of brown mud in it. I had treated it already with straight nitric to remove all base metals. I then washed it over and over. It had a lot of orange mud in it with the brown and I rinsed it many times and got the orange out. I then took the remaining brown mud and I am still washing it to remove a much lighter colored cloud that is getting more and more diminished with every rinse and it is getting down to the final rinsing. 

Interestingly though, the beaker (2000 ml) after the orange color was gone it has since taken on a purple color and now I am rinsing it to get down to the end result. 

Yes, I have saved all the purple rinse water and yes it does have a lot of purple mud in that rinse water jar. 

That is my update.


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## Yggdrasil (Jun 15, 2020)

When you ne*u*tralize a solution, you add acid or base until the PH is 7, it is then neutral.
You can not neutralize one acid alone in a mix, when you mix them you create a complex, PH wise and what you do to the complex will affect both.

If you are deNoxing a solution as we call it, you have a few options:

Urea will form UreaNitrate and such "lock" some of the free nitric/Nox but the nitrates are still there.

You can evaporate the liquid to a syrup and add more HCl a couple of times.

You can use Sulfamic acid and it will convert the nitric to Sulphuric acid (killing two birds with one stone) which is the preferred method in here for the time beeing.

Or you can cement out the PMs with a copper bar (or copper powder as you have done), which may be the best method for dirty or diluted solutions since it will consume the free nitric in the process. Make sure you have good circulation.

If you already have a clean solution you may add a gold button to consume the free nitric.


The precipitation will be a brownish cinnamon colored mud if clean, to dark brown mud if its dirty.
*This is your actual gold.* :wink: 

As to the purple mud, I hope what has been proposed already will fix your challenges.

Edited a typo


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## Mountain Man (Jun 18, 2020)

When I said I was going to neutralize the solution I am speaking of the nitric. I still have not done anything with all the purple mud that I have. I can say with confidence that I feel like the gold from the materials I processed must be trapped in the purple mud or is the gold and something is trapped in with it causing it to be purple. Otherwise the yield for the material I processed is way lower than expected. 

This particular batch is a 6 lb batch of military grade gold plated fittings and connectors. I used reverse electrolysis to strip them. The black mud yield was very high. I followed the instructions exactly for letting it sit for 24 hours. Actually more than 24 hrs. I then rinsed many multiple time and washed to remove the sulfuric residue. Once I reached the point where I felt it was truly washed and had no sulfuric residue left I the subjected it (black mud) to AR solution and dissolved it all. I then neutralized the remaining nitric with urea until the ph was right. Once that was done, I then took the solution and filtered it to remove any urea residue and any other foreign materials until the solution was clean. At this point I added copper powder to drop the gold. I let is set overnight and the next day I was very happy to see the amount of mud on the bottom of my glass container. I siphoned the excess water off and was ready to start my final washing and saw that all the mud that had dropped with the copper powder was purple. The excess copper was normal colored but the gold mud had turned purple and still is to this day. I have not gone beyond this point. Still needing your expertise to 
save the gold. I have not done anything else to it except clean water washes. Lots, of washes. I still have a large amount of purple mud. The glass jar is 12 inches across the bottom of the jar so it is a big jar and has in upwards of 1/2 inch at least that is settled on the entire bottom of this jar. There is a lot of purple mud or gold and something I can not identify. I am at a loss but I never give up. 

Please understand that I value all of your suggestions, ideas and experience. I read all your comments over and over and value every one of them. I know, more than anyone that I have a lot more to learn to become expert in the venture of mine, but I am not and have never been a quitter. 

Thank you All For Your Willingness to Help. 
Mountain Man
Kirk


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## butcher (Jun 18, 2020)

Could it be silver chloride? what happens when you take a small sample of the mud in a test tube and add HCl does the violet color go white or the violet color goes away...?

A small sample in ammonia, and then that solution acidified with HCl, is the solution colored blue with copper or other, do the powders or some dissolve in solution, does the mud change colors, does acidifying the solution produce a change in color, milky solution, or a precipitate?

We can continue coming up with different ways we can test a solution, but these will probably give you clues to what you are or are not dealing with.


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## Mountain Man (Jun 19, 2020)

So, I took a small sample of the purple mud today and put it in a cup or so of water. Keep in mind that this is after many many rinses. I then mixed a very small amount of HCL and Nitric acid. Less than a 1/2 cup combined and poured the AR solution in with the small amount of purple mud. Small meaning a teaspoon full.

Anyone care to guess on what happened? Maybe I should wait to see your answers and see what you all think. No, just kidding, but here is what happened. 

It dissolved the purple mud. The solution turned a canary yellow and was transparent however I could see a small amount of suspended very light colored white cloud. So clearly I have something in the mix that I did not get out in the rinsing process. Then after that instead of using urea to denox it I used the copper powder to denox it and so I slowly added small amounts until the nitric was used up and I know it was used up because the gold started dropping due to the copper powder. When the copper stopped denoxing the solution the gold started attaching to the copper powder and so I kept adding copper until the solution tested negative and the copper was starting to accumulate on the bottom without any gold. 

So, I still don't know what is causing it to turn purple but I am thinking that Kurt may have hit it when he said stannic tin being present. He specifically said to look for a white cloud that will be hard to spot if I am not looking very closely for it. 

However, it may still have other factors that have been mentioned for example silver chloride, direct sunlight, and others as well. I can not discount the fact that when I process a batch and it is time to let it settle I typically set the container I use which is clear in the window sill of my gold recovery building. 

So, my friends, That is my report as of today. I have also been trying the other suggestions that have been mentioned and do not and will not disregard your expertise and comments so please keep them coming. I am more than appreciative for all of your willingness to share your time, experience and offer to help with my apparent slow learning process. It seems the more I do this, the more I realize just how little I know. 

Thank you all again. I sincerely mean it and if I have not commented on some of your suggestions it does not mean that I have not read them. I read every word of every one of your comments, multiple times before I make any kind of decision on what to try first. 

Sincerely,
Mountain Man
Kirk


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