# Tried my hand at silver. I've clearly made a mistake.



## Worms4u (Jul 26, 2017)

I like to give a detailed explanation so.. here goes.

I bought some silver plated silverware dirt cheap to try my hand at refining some silver. I ran it through a reverse electroplating cell and scraped off all of the silver, easy. Since I knew there was copper mixed in with the silver (Because the metal under was brass) I boiled the scrapings in HCL after washing the electrolyte off very well. After removing the copper I washed that very well too (No blue/green residue in the wash water when I was done - I used distilled water). So now I am left with a grayish kind of silvery material, it's kind of chalky. I was under the impression that this was elemental silver, and now I'd just dissolve it in Nitric/water and drop it out with some copper.

That's the problem - It's not happening. I've added water/Nitric and boiled it, it does nothing. Is this material a dirty AgCl? I thought it would be almost white if it was AgCl, but since it was gray/silvery that I assumed it was just Ag.

So my guess is that it's a chloride and I need to convert it to elemental silver, and then use nitric to refine it? It's not cottage cheesy though.. it's like a smooth chalky substance.

I'm kind of confused.

If it is AgCl, what would be the best way to convert it to elemental silver?


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## kernels (Jul 26, 2017)

Silver Chloride will go darker when exposed to bright light, might be what you are seeing ?


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## solar_plasma (Jul 26, 2017)

A foto would make it easier to understand.

Whatever you have Ag, AgCl or a blend of both, if it ist still wet, you can use NaOH or the NaOH/sugar-method to convert AgCl to Ag2O or elemental Ag and melt (Ag2O is turning to elemental Ag under heating).

If you have dried it (what you another time should avoid) you can smelt it with NaCO3, if I remember correctly. This method will cause some losses.

For detailed instruction, use the keywords I have given you with this post and try the search function. If you can't find it, ask again.


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## Worms4u (Jul 26, 2017)

Here's what it looks like. It has never been completely dry, moist at worst.
http://imgur.com/xz6uM54

Should I try 5% sulfuric acid + iron to attempt to convert to Ag?

Thanks.


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## Long Shot (Jul 26, 2017)

That purplish tinge to it makes it look like you have AgCl.


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## solar_plasma (Jul 27, 2017)

there is still copper in solution, wash until really clear, the test wash water for cobber, if you want to be sure


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## solar_plasma (Jul 27, 2017)

some prefer zinc, others prefer lye or lye and sugar, some even prefer to do it the hot way - that's up to you


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## Worms4u (Jul 27, 2017)

Oh that was the picture I took when there was still nitric+water in the solution. Since it's AgCl I'll clean it real well and try zinc/fe + sulfuric - Because it was never really 'cheese curdy' so I don't know if the structure changed, and would have a problem with caustic soda.


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## Lino1406 (Jul 28, 2017)

No problem with caustic soda


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## Worms4u (Aug 11, 2017)

Hi! So I converted everything to elemental silver, and wanted to chemically refine it (I'll try an electrolytic cell later). So I put my silver into 50/50 water/nitric acid and, the results were a little unexpected. There was a reaction, with the tell-tale red gas coming out of the beaker, but after heating the contents, and leaving it overnight here's what I am left with:

http://imgur.com/a/GPCLh

Note, I feel like I have used *a lot* of nitric acid. The contents does settle if left unheated. I kind of expected it to go completely into solution so I could drop it out with copper wire.

Do I need to add *more* nitric acid? I am pretty sure there is a little AgCl in it, but not a lot. I kind of figured I'd decant the silver nitrate out and then deal with the AgCl later.

Suggestions?
Thanks!
Worms


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 11, 2017)

Worms4u said:


> Hi! So I converted everything to elemental silver, and wanted to chemically refine it (I'll try an electrolytic cell later). So I put my silver into 50/50 water/nitric acid and, the results were a little unexpected. There was a reaction, with the tell-tale red gas coming out of the beaker, but after heating the contents, and leaving it overnight here's what I am left with:
> what method did you use to convert?
> http://imgur.com/a/GPCLh
> 
> ...


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## butcher (Aug 12, 2017)

From what I can tell from the picture.

Should just try just a small amount of the powder in the test. The powder can be mostly other metals, nitric on the whole volume of powders to begin would just waste HNO3. 

The red fume tells you that you have much of your nitric going up in gas, diluting the HNO3 and adding a little 3% H2O2 can help conserve your nitric and consume it in the reaction, it may take a little longer or heat but is not so wasteful or does not make such a deadly cloud.

Decant the solution you have now (test it for silver) using a copper wire or NaCl, black powder on copper, or white AgCl with the salt.

If the test above shows no silver do not get discouraged yet, the other metals may have replaced the nitric acid solution and cemented the silver back out with the rest of that volume of undissolved powders.

Do the test again with diluted Hno3 on a smaller volume, with just a spoon full or your powder, see how much dissolves, the color of solution , the volume of precipitate with salt (AgCl which is normally more voluminous than Ag cemented on copper), or the volume of Ag (black powder cemented with copper), compare that with volume of powders dissolved...


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## Palladium (Aug 12, 2017)

Tin?


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## Worms4u (Aug 13, 2017)

So, I finally said to heck with it and precipitated everything out as a chloride, so I knew what it all was. Then I stirred in some lye until it was black (or nearly so, very dark purple) And allowed the solution to cool and settle. So I've got silver oxide. At this point I could have melted it into elemental silver, but I though why not try this Karo method I've heard about. After watching a couple of videos I mixed in some Karo and I felt the solution heat up again. Then I come here and see the post "Do not use Dark Karo syrup", which is exactly what I did - Because that's what they used in the video!

Since it does not explain WHY you dont want to use dark karo syrup in the other post. Why not? Will it just be a sticky mess I'll have to dry out and purge with intense heat? Or is it simply not going to react and I have silver oxide still with some sticky stuff mixed in? 

Due to the law of conservation I guess either way I can just fire and slag off the junk, I guess I just want to know why regular Karo is 'bad' and if it is, am I supposed to use the 'light karo'? Further if I am, why don't people specify light karo when they talk about it


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## jimdoc (Aug 13, 2017)

I guess you didn't see the "Do not use Youtube videos (unless by a member here)" warnings on here?


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## Worms4u (Aug 13, 2017)

Thanks Jimdoc, your reply was very enlightening, and useful. I am glad you took the time to post something so useful without addressing a single question I had! Look I can be snarky too!

I should mention I didn't go crazy with the dark karo syrup. I can use the light stuff to finish the reaction if needed.


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## jimdoc (Aug 13, 2017)

If I had an answer for you, I would have given it.
I am not a Karo syrup expert. I do know not to trust Youtube videos though.


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## Palladium (Aug 14, 2017)

I think what Jim was trying to point out was the answer to your question is here on the forum, but that would take time and effort to find the answer. That's to hard compared to the easy way and instant gratification obtained from watching a youtube video. Now we are back to answering your question with our time and effort from a mistake you made there by lessening your burden and bestowing instant gratification to your situtation when all you had to do was follow this link: https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=


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## butcher (Aug 14, 2017)

Worms4u,
I believe you owe Jimdoc an apology.

He was not being "snarky", he was trying to be helpful with his simple comment.

Maybe you are used to other forums or media on the web, things are much different here, that dog does not hunt here.

Here we are gentlemen and ladies which help each other in a professional manner, if not then they are politely asked to leave, or they are quickly shown the door.

You are very welcome here on the forum, if you can, and will conduct yourself as a gentleman, in a professional manner.

This is not the first time you have been warned, there will be no more.

I am no expert on Karo syrup they are both sugars and should work in the reaction.
Karo light corn syrup is made with corn syrup and real vanilla. Dark corn syrup is made with refiners' syrup, a type of molasses. could have something to do with its thickness or how it is made. I do not know, maybe someone who knows can answer the question, who has experienced the problem with it. If you will be polite.
It may just need to be diluted, I do not know and do not have time to experiment to find out.


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## jimdoc (Aug 14, 2017)

butcher said:


> Worms4u,
> I believe you owe Jimdoc an apology.



Not expected, and not needed by me. If he does apologize, let it be to the forum with a promise to change his crappy attitude.

Looking back at his past attitude, I feel he should have been banned then.
And I can't really see him changing now. I predict he will be banned sometime in the future.

Here he is an accident waiting to happen, while chasing pennies worth of silver playing with chemicals he probably doesn't know about their hazards, or care about their safe disposal.

If he really wants some silver, he should buy it on Ebay.


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## Worms4u (Aug 14, 2017)

Very well, I apologize.

I don't think long time members realize how toxic this environment is.

If questions are asked new members are told to read the forum. Ok that's great. But we don't even know what key words to search on. For example I knew what inquarting was, but I didn't know there was a word for it. How do I go about searching for that? People mention oxy/propane yet no one describes what that actually is in a meaningful way, so I guess I made an assumption that it simply meant a propane torch burning in the atomosphere's oxygen, since people are extremely loose in their descriptions of a very specific process. Another example, Karo. Karo. Use Karo. It's the best. Use Karo. Ok I search for Karo - not 'Light Karo' because no one actually uses the term 'light karo' (though I found few examples once I knew to search for that).

So new people come here and ask questions and are told to RTFM without the tools needed to actually do it. Then Jim comes in and gives me a response that WAS trolling. Absolutely. Feel differently, it's your prerogative. 

So you can be all gentlemanly, holier than thou, and an Old boys club. That's what this forum is. 

You won't need to ban me, I won't be back.
Take your gentleman's club and shove it.


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## jimdoc (Aug 14, 2017)

Adios.


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## jimdoc (Aug 14, 2017)

One of his mistakes was not studying the silver section, instead of zeroing in his searches on a specific word for a quick and easy answer. When you search, you should be finding answers to your next question, before you knew what it was going to be. Patience. And understanding what you are going to do, before you do it. Especially with dangerous chemicals. And know what to do with the waste products.

When people like him are looking for quick answers, and rushing his little experiments, with no patience, do you honestly think he is dealing with his waste properly?

Honestly, with silver, most of any possible questions he had could be answered with the search box and a little patience. That would have eliminated my "snarky" comments. The search box doesn't have an attitude detector.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 14, 2017)

Worms4u said:


> I don't think long time members realize how toxic this environment is.
> We deal with toxic things daily, the environment itself, is only as toxic as you make it.
> If questions are asked new members are told to read the forum. Ok that's great. But we don't even know what key words to search on.
> That is why Hoke's book is SO great! It gives the fundamentals of refining, and introduces the terminology so we know what words to search and how to phrase them properly.
> ...


To quote a gentleman I highly miss, "thats a ponderous chip you bear on your shoulder. Might be a good idea to set it down.."


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## Palladium (Aug 14, 2017)

Your actions show you have neither the attitude, nor the perseverance for this field. The post you made above is like a double negative. You state you can't learn because you don't know the proper terms to use. Just the fact that you don't know what terms to use shows that you did actually learn something. You learned you didn't know the proper terms. Now an intelligent person would understand they need to seek out that information and enlighten themselves. Then after you search and answer your own questions you become educated! You want self gratification! The first step is intelligence to do the work and then comes education from that hard work. Apparently you lack both, but the overriding factor in all of this is your attitude. Discipline is the foundation with which education is acquired, but not without the intelligence to seek out one own answers.

The loss of such a great mind to the contribution of the refining world will be lost to the history of the old school gentleman's club. God speed young Skywalker!


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## nickvc (Aug 15, 2017)

I know we are trying to stop the read Hoke reply but in this case he might of at least learnt what terms he was looking for to use in the search function had he been told that, perhaps the read Hoke reply needs reapplying at least that way new members are on the same page as the experienced members understanding the language of refining and recovery.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Aug 15, 2017)

nickvc said:


> I know we are trying to stop the read Hoke reply but in this case he might of at least learnt what terms he was looking for to use in the search function had he been told that, perhaps the read Hoke reply needs reapplying at least that way new members are on the same page as the experienced members understanding the language of refining and recovery.



Sometimes all that is needed, is for them to peruse the guided tour and check out a couple threads featured there. The general reaction list is a great "in house" substitution for getting familiar with the common terms used on the forum. 

Though, I believe his problem was the gift of the internet, and its instant gratification. More so, not wanting to do anything himself.

For instance, the syrup set-back.
A quick wiki search of corn syrup, he would have found that the dark stuff has molasses in it.
Had he read the general reaction list and/our guided tour, he would know "garbage in, garbage out". After some simple math skills, he could have then figured "dark syrup = garbage, ergo, dark syrup in garbage out"

This forum, and its environment are what they/we make of it


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## upcyclist (Aug 16, 2017)

I think it's fairly simple--those that believe you need to earn your own returns do well here. Those that feel entitled to them do not.

This strikes me a vaguely Generational--as long as you keep in mind: just because you were born in a certain time period does not mean you act like most members of your generation. So yes, it's a dig on Milennials, but only the ones that are prime specimens


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## Palladium (Aug 16, 2017)

I'm OFFENDED !!!!!!! 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## butcher (Aug 16, 2017)

My gut hurts :lol: :lol:


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## Rougemillenial (Feb 8, 2018)

Worms4u said:


> Very well, I apologize.
> 
> I don't think long time members realize how toxic this environment is.
> 
> ...


jeez, someone sure is a hothead. I hope he either cooled off a bit or found a different hobby because someone with a quick fuse doing stuff like this is an accident just waiting to happen. You absolutely need to be calm and collected when handling these chemicals because anger leads to great pain in this context.


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## butcher (Feb 9, 2018)

Where to begin, you tried your hand at recovery and refining and need help, members say search and study, recommend books to read and speak in a foreign tongue, that is foreign to most in any language, except to them that suggest reading the forum, books and to study.

You wish to learn a skill which was kept secrets from kings, and you have members here offering help to those who are willing to learn a skill and art very few have had access to before this forum.

I would listen, read the book and material, study the forum and suggested links, knowing at first I would have to learn the language, and the concepts of the chemistry and processes involved, this is a skill, much like others which are not something you will learn overnight. A skill that men spend their life studying and practicing and yet learn more every day they work on their education. To learn the language, reading even that that you do not understand, at first you will understand very little of what you read, as you keep with it, you understand more and more, you gain an understanding of the language, you gain more questions to find answers to, your search expands as much as your knowledge of the complicated subject, as you learn you also begin to learn how vast the skill is and how much there really is to it getting started is simple compared to gaining just a tidbit of knowledge without any understanding.

Learning the basics is important in any skill you learn, without the basic understanding you lack the primary principles to build an education on, Hokes book will help with the basics, learning the language, and the basic principles key to success in this field of work kings killed for, secrets you have access to with an effort on your part, and taking the advice from the members here. which have been willing to give their time, and years of their hard work they took to educate themselves, which they freely offer here.

I apologize for you to the forum and its members, I am sorry they wasted their time trying to help.

Worms4u, I am also sorry for anyone, who does not have enough sense to take the good advice from the members, before barking out at them, and read the suggested material, or if you do not learn to study the skills you wish to learn. Where is the best place to begin learning, is to start it yourself. Learning to educate yourself may be the most important tool for survival. Any man who does not know how to begin to educate himself is someone I would wish to help. Even if he chooses a name like worms for you to ask for assistance in learning a skill, or got frustrated, because someone will not hand him all the answers he seeks on a silver plate, and when they point to the answer in a book, smart men would read the book before biting the hand of the one who pointed him to the answer he sought..


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