# Clouds



## 4metals (Aug 29, 2017)

I had the extreme privilege to travel to Charleston SC specifically to see the solar eclipse in totality on August 21st and it was amazing. 

So I want to engage in a totally non refining discussion about what I saw and some questions I have because of that observation. 

First, it was a cloudy day in Charleston on the day of the eclipse but had there not been clouds, I would have never noticed this. Around 2 on the day of the eclipse the clouds broke up enough for the sun to be peeking in and out among the clouds. Come the time of the actual eclipse, there was spotty cloud cover but thin enough to look at the sun with the glasses and see the moon eclipsing the sun. But looking around as the moon progressively blocked more and more sun, I noticed that until the sun was about 95% eclipsed, the darkness that fell was no more than a cloudy day before a big rain. When the sun was about 95% eclipsed it was noticeably darker and it went to full dark and 2 minutes later emerged on the other side of the moon and appeared to be just another cloudy day dark within about 10 minutes. 

What I realized was that clouds often block the similar amount of daylight as a 95% eclipse. I always knew clouds block the sun but never realised how much they block it until I witnessed a full solar eclipse and could relate the darkness progression to the actual percentage of blockage by the moon in an eclipse. 

So my question. One of the effects of climate change is the increase of atmospheric moisture in the air. Estimated at 7% more moisture per ºC increase in temperature. So if the atmosphere is holding more moisture, it is making more clouds. And since clouds are so effective at blocking sunlight from hitting the earth (as I learned from observing the eclipse). Why doesn't the increased cloud cover have a cooling effect on the planet? 

Just to give you an idea of the cloud cover we had, I shot this photo as the sun emerged after the full eclipse. Because of the cloud cover this could be shot without a filter, hence the blue color.


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## goldsilverpro (Aug 29, 2017)

My son took his wife and 2 kids to Kansas City to see the eclipse. There was a possibility of cloudiness in KC, so they ended up driving to Sedalia, MO, where it was guaranteed to be clear. He's still raving about how spectacular it was.


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## Lou (Aug 29, 2017)

That day I also was in Charleston, SC with my woman and child. 

The coolest thing about it for me was that the insane humidity and swelter subsided!!

Pity to have missed you.


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## 4metals (Aug 29, 2017)

We rented a converted carriage house for our stay in Charleston and it had a private English garden where we viewed the eclipse sans crowds. The thing I noticed was when it got totally dark, the crickets came out!


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## mls26cwru (Aug 29, 2017)

Warm air does hold more moisture, but it still has to get to the dew point (when the air becomes saturated and the water starts to condense) for clouds to form. It's the miniscule droplets of water in the air that scatter the light of their surface that block the sun. 

There are some interesting thermodynamics that go on with water in air and the atmosphere is a complex system, but yes we should get more clouds with increased water in the air. I have read places that postulate that global warning could lead to an ice age/cooling eventa and the increased cloud cover could start it off.


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## butcher (Aug 29, 2017)

I can look straight at the sun in daytime without sunglasses its just a dark orange ball that barely pears through the thick clouds of smoke, but I cannot see my barn from the house the smoke is so thick, 

Well if moisture in clouds can make global warming, this smoke is cooking our earth, the same people who scream about global warming are the same people who are letting the country burn up, They say this fire started naturally and the smoke is natural smoke let our state burn,(the same people who wish to take the little wood stove in my home because the small batch of wood I burn is polluting their big city environment. the wood many of these fires are in are "protected wilderness areas, no one can use any modern equipment or gasoline or fueled engine in them, not even a caterpillar to build fire breaks or a chain saw to prevent fire danger or to stop a fire, if they do build a fire line they have to hike in with hand saws and axes to build fire trails, or breaks (when and if they decide to try and stop or prevent a fire), people are losing homes, and now two towns are endanger of burning because of our government forest practices of " protecting the environment or caring for what use to be the public's land. the other strange thing about these lands we cannot or will not build roads into or are so protected is they are a store house of valuable minerals which nobody can really mine anymore, so is it our environment they are protecting? Are they protecting the woods which belong to the public from the public, or are they protecting valuable natural resources from the Americans keeping them off their lands and mismanaging them? filling the clouds and air with dense wood smoke.


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## Refining Rick (Aug 29, 2017)

I'll second that butcher! It is very crazy stuff going on around here. Nasty bad here in G.P. Seems not to long ago everyone was complaining about the long rain season. I sure wish it would come back for a day or two.
Had a great view of the 95ish percent eclipse, and the most noticeable thing for me was the rapid temperature change. Felt like it fell 15-20 degrees. As far as darkness, I would say it was late evening like.


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## UncleBenBen (Aug 29, 2017)

One of the coolest things I saw was the shadows cast under the trees. I've seen some pictures of them during totality, and they were all round and uniform instead of the random patterns you see normally. I took my wife to the roof of one of the buildings at work to see the full eclipse. It was really neat to see the partial eclipse mirrored by the spaces between the the leaves...




I think I will be traveling to see another full eclipse or two if I can possibly manage it. I really want to experience that again!


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## g_axelsson (Aug 30, 2017)

I was very tempted to go to USA just to see the eclipse, but not this time.

I've experienced a 80% eclipse, but that was a cloudy day and in the evening. It just felt like the evening came an hour earlier that day.



4metals said:


> So my question. One of the effects of climate change is the increase of atmospheric moisture in the air. Estimated at 7% more moisture per ºC increase in temperature. So if the atmosphere is holding more moisture, it is making more clouds. And since clouds are so effective at blocking sunlight from hitting the earth (as I learned from observing the eclipse). Why doesn't the increased cloud cover have a cooling effect on the planet?



Yes, the increased cloud cover reflects more light, just as snow and ice does so it has a cooling effect. But water vapors in the atmosphere has a bigger effect on IR-light, insulating the planet and stops it from cooling down. So it has both a chilling and a heating effect. I think the heating effect is bigger but I don't know that for a fact.

Göran


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## etack (Aug 30, 2017)

Took my family and a group of friends to see it in Lebanon TN. It was completely clear supper cool.

The Traffic home was the worst. 5Hr trip took 12 to get home from.

Lou in 7 years you will just need to step outside to see the next one.

Eric


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## Long Shot (Aug 30, 2017)

Here in Ontario all we experienced was a "dimming" of light and you would have had to be expecting it or you probably wouldn't have noticed. What I know is that regardless of increased moisture in the air or global warming / cooling it has happened before and will happen again. When the forces of nature or, for that matter ourselves, extinct us from this planet, Mother Nature will run her course and in 100,000 years no one will know we were every here except for all the holes poked in the ground and all the fossilized junk! Glad you fellows got to see a very rare event though.


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## Geo (Sep 3, 2017)

Actually, it does have a cooling effect world wide. There is an effect called nuclear winter where it is theorized that a nuclear war would put so much dust in the air that it would cause a small ice age. It has happened in the past with really big volcanic explosions and is called "volcanic winter". Examples are the great potato famine of 1845 - 1849. Even though the cause was blamed on "potato blight" scientist has discovered that the blight was caused by a lack of sufficient sunlight reaching the ground. There was several large eruptions that was dated in 1845 including several in the Cascade mountains including Mount St. Helens and Mount Rainier and Mount Hood. All in the same year.
Most recently, the 1991 explosion of Mount Pinatubo, a stratovolcano in the Philippines, cooled global temperatures for about 2–3 years.
The Great Famine of 1315–1317 in Europe may have been precipitated by a volcanic event, perhaps that of Mount Tarawera, New Zealand, lasting about five years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter


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## 4metals (Sep 3, 2017)

If things don't clear up soon between the US and North Korea we may be able to test that "nuclear winter" theory!


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## g_axelsson (Sep 3, 2017)

Reading up on the science, there is a net warming effect of water vapor in the atmosphere. As you noted increased cloud cover reflects some of the sunlight, but in the night it traps heat from being radiated into space.
Clear and dry air lets the heat escape during night. This is most evident in desert areas where daytime temperatures can be very high and during the night it can be almost freezing.

The net effect of water vapor is adding to the global warming and amplify any contribution by other greenhouse gases two times. So if the temperature rises 1 degree from carbon dioxide increase then the increased temperature lets the atmosphere hold more water vapor that increases the temperature rise by another 2 degrees.

Göran


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## butcher (Sep 5, 2017)

The fire (close to my home in the woods) has burnt more than 165,000 acres of land it was less than 8 miles from home yesterday, dropping ash all over me. we are in level one evacuation, with no sign of fire fighting activity in my area, with the whole state on fire the firefighting personnel are spread thin, the area that is burning they cannot or will not put any resource that uses fuel to fight the ground fire, no motorized vehicles caterpillars chainsaws, and firefighting must be done by hiking in and using hand tools (another failed policy?)... 

The fire is so large and putting out so much smoke everywhere they cannot use air craft to fight or even slow the fires advance.

the live ash from these fire start fires spot fires up to 1/2 mile ahead of the main fire lines easily jumping rivers or fire lines. Tree's get so hot they actually explode into a burst of flames. the smoke from this fire reaches 10,000 feet high, carrying hot ash with the flume of gases.

Well it has now burned out of that area where they cannot use engines or modern equipment, but now we do not have the resources to fight the fire. 

I will not leave my home this time, I will stay here and try and save what I can if it gets to my door. if nothing else I will take shelter in my root cellar till it burns through, if they cannot or will not fight this fire I will.

The smoke is thicker than clouds, and a cloud full of rain would be a small blessing of hope.

well this is not my first rodeo of this kind, so I guess I just get back out and saddle up and get ready for the ride.


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## FrugalRefiner (Sep 5, 2017)

I wish you the best of luck and I hope you get that rain. Please stay safe!

Dave


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## 4metals (Sep 5, 2017)

At least you have a root cellar to hold up in if it gets too bad. I hope it's deep enough. It seems after all of the rains you left coasters have had from the La Niña there wouldn't be such a dry season this year. 

Best of luck to you, I hope it all works out well for you.


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## galenrog (Sep 6, 2017)

You down by Brookings, Butcher? If so, thanks for the smoke. We don't have clouds in the southern Willamette Valley, just smoke.

I'm told by my neighbor, a local volunteer fireman, that most of the fires will be with us in the Pacific Northwest until the winter weather patterns start. He is a bit upset that most of the fires here are fought with hand tools only, despite old logging roads throughout the area that could easily handle heavy equipment that could help with fire lines.


Too late for more coffee.


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## butcher (Sep 6, 2017)

All I see is smoke, but their must have been a CLOUD above the smoke, it dropped a blessing of rain to dampen my property I feel better about the danger of hot ash now.
What open up all of the roads, and what use them to manage the forest, fight fires, let the people use and manage their public lands?


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## galenrog (Sep 7, 2017)

Sad to say, but it will not happen in Oregon.

I am sure there was a cloud or two above the smoke this afternoon. I had to turn on the wipers for a few minutes. Nope, that was the neighbors sprinkler. Again. Perhaps I will see a few clouds this weekend. Cranberry Festival in Bandon. I would not care if it is dismal costal fog. It is better than the smoke. 

Past time for more coffee. It there is always tomorrow morning.


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## butcher (Sep 7, 2017)

As of yesterday 176,770 acres of forrest land burned from this one fire close to home, of that land 155,171 acres were national forest, 6.515 acres were BLM public lands, and 15,000 acres of private lands including peoples homes, burned in this one fire called the Chetco bar fire, started by lightning 7-12-2017, they had crewws that could have put it out when it first started and was only a few acres of fire, the government policy was it was a natural fire fire crews were told to stand back and let it burn naturally.

They think they may get some kind of control over this fire sometime around 10-15-2017 when the weather changes. How much more will burn in another month as the perimeter all around this fire grows daily?

There is nothing natural about this kind of fire in UN-managed forest, for many thousands of years these forest have been managed, the Indians managed the lands with fire to insure the food supply they needed to survive, they would control burn to create fields for deer elk buffalo and other animals which cannot eat the pine trees, they would clear areas for camas root and other edible plants that cannot grow in the forest, they would burn brush and manage the oak groves for the oak acorns a source of food...

Now we entrust this land to a bunch of politicians, and city dwelling "environmentalist" (who know nothing about the land they claim to manage) and let them "naturally burn it to hell.

What Madness when will we as people begin to wake up, and do something to protect ourselves, and our precious lands we need to survive on?

Sorry I cannot even trust them to protect the air we need to breath.


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## Refining Rick (Sep 7, 2017)

Yes. It is horrid here. It is just over the hills from my house, about 14-18 miles away. Praying for rain today. 30% chance according to the news. Just hold the lightning please.
The guys at work here (in Grants Pass) were just discussing the "good ole boys" going out and cutting fire lines ourselves. We are not the only ones either. The forestry seems to be more concerned with wildlife (like the animals are not losing their homes.) and not staring new fires then they seem care about the effects of the current fire on people.
Hopefully if some smoke cover clears they can get that 747 tanker dropping loads. They said it needed to finish up the fire it is fighting in California and then it will be sent here. That thing can drop a line of retardant 1 and 1/2 miles long! Like painting containment lines.
On a side note I suppose it's a good time to incinerate material. Being that nobody would notice the smoke and smell. (I'm kidding of course.)


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