# baking soda instead of urea?



## addicted (Jan 18, 2015)

hello all  first off if this has been answered already i apologize. i am doing as much research as i can but i'm not finding a solid answer anywhere. i am wondering if i can use baking soda in place of urea to neutralize the nitric in my aqua regia solution so i can precipitate gold. i have done my research in how to drop the other metals before going after the gold but all of the processes i have found require the use of urea. since this is not easy to obtain where i'm at i need a home remedy for this little problem i'm having. i really don't want to spend $35 to get 250 grams of urea if there is a way around it. also it may be improtant to mention that the aqua regia i am making is with very dilute nitric ( around 30% usually) so i use a little more than normal to make the reaction happen a little quicker. i'm also using 32% HCL instead of a concentrated HCL. any and all help is appreciated thanks in advance


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 18, 2015)

NO! No baking soda!

If, in about 5 years of dealing with this stuff daily, you finally might be adequate to try to re-invent the wheel. As of now, stick with the consensus of the forum.

I don't use urea or anything else to kill the nitric. However, if you want it, find a big rural fertilizer store. The last time I bought it it bulk, I paid ten cents a pound for a bucket of it.


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## Geo (Jan 18, 2015)

32% HCl is concentrated. Instead of urea, use sulfamic acid instead. This works better if the solution your are working with is warmed and the sulfamic is either dry crystals or in a cool solution of just water.


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## AndyWilliams (Jan 19, 2015)

addicted said:


> hello all  first off if this has been answered already i apologize. i am doing as much research as i can but i'm not finding a solid answer anywhere. i am wondering if i can use baking soda in place of urea to neutralize the nitric in my aqua regia solution so i can precipitate gold. i have done my research in how to drop the other metals before going after the gold but all of the processes i have found require the use of urea. since this is not easy to obtain where i'm at i need a home remedy for this little problem i'm having. i really don't want to spend $35 to get 250 grams of urea if there is a way around it. also it may be improtant to mention that the aqua regia i am making is with very dilute nitric ( around 30% usually) so i use a little more than normal to make the reaction happen a little quicker. i'm also using 32% HCL instead of a concentrated HCL. any and all help is appreciated thanks in advance



Welcome! You are correct, the question has already been answered. You'll find that neither "method" is recommended to neutralize the nitric. 

It is clear that you haven't researched your answer on this forum. No process here would require the use of urea. Researching on this forum will also teach you that if you have a general idea of how much gold you expect to recover, you can calculate an appropriate amount of nitric to use. Or you may even stumble across Harold's trick. (Hint: Search for Harold's nitric trick, Butcher's post covers each of the methods you'll find used on this forum.)

If you limit your research to this forum, I guarantee you'll end up with the best answers. It really is hit or miss on other sites, especially YouTube. Start with Hoke's book and ask questions when you don't understand the research. There is a new member tour, I highly recommend you start there.


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## jason_recliner (Jan 19, 2015)

AndyWilliams said:


> No process here would require the use of urea.


But here, it is tomato growing season. As a hobbyist gold refiner and gardener, that's the only thing for which I can think urea might be useful.


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## kurtak (Jan 19, 2015)

addicted said:


> hello all  first off if this has been answered already i apologize. i am doing as much research as i can but i'm not finding a solid answer anywhere.




First welcome to the forum - you will find that this is the very best source of info in the world on the recovery & refining of PMs

However - I see you joined at 9:49 pm & then posted at 10:11 pm - thats less then 1/2 hour - meaning - I don't call that - "doing as much research as I (you) can"

doing research - before asking a lot of questions - by new members - is required :!: 

Start by reading this :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=19074 

Then read this :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21374 --- in the signature line of FrugalRefiners post you will find a link for a down load of a book by C. M. Hokes --- down load it & read it - as it is also a MUST read for new members before they start asking a bunch of questions

Again welcome to the forum

Kurt


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## AndyWilliams (Jan 19, 2015)

jason_recliner said:


> AndyWilliams said:
> 
> 
> > No process here would require the use of urea.
> ...



Hey, no taking my words out of context! "Here," as referenced in the prior sentence, is this forum!! Not the frozen tundra of Northeast Wisconsin, whether tomato season or not!


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## andy3124fish (Jan 23, 2018)

I am not sure why nobody can give an answer. Why just refer to book? Maybe, everyone did it right the first time. I recently added baking soda and still recovered lots of gold from ore. I did use sodium bi-sulfate, which is necessary. I am newbie and didn't read all those books. Just referenced them. I washed and recooked to not loose anything. I came to the site for quick answer and noticed many posts that were kind of negative. If someone makes a mistake first time around, it should be allowed to tell them what to do with stuff they have sitting in their back yard while they read a book. I have not noticed a bunch of extra crap left over from baking soda. I believe it makes carbon dioxide and salt. I was quick to remove the dropped gold and put the rest of liquid back in to cook then drop again with bisulfate. So, I hope this helps someone else. It may not be the best answer, but the gold is not going anywhere and cooking off or hydration is a method Hoke mentioned to get that nitric out. Am I wrong about this because I would like to know. Please don't be angry to a new person, meaning me. This is how I remedied problem because I did not see it in book or on this site as what to do if you do use baking soda. You have to read for a week to find it. I read use copper and that takes too long.


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## jimdoc (Jan 23, 2018)

Playing around with ores can be dangerous.


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## andy3124fish (Jan 23, 2018)

You bet. Most are toxic as with most minerals, but I never knew that when I started collecting rocks as kid or until just a few years ago. I have breathed in dust while sanding or polishing many times and hope that none of that hurts me later in life. I knew before hand that this is dangerous.
The nitric scares me and so does the AR. I am not sure the approved procedures here. I dont use heat to make either. I prefer the weather to be freezing. It has been much stronger with cold weather lately or in the 20s. It is red, but no fumes because hosed to a second bottle of water. It hardly bubbled at 20 degrees and took 2 days. I try and not heat much because that also scares me. I can wait overnight. I think the process is pretty safe and it is cheap, not the results. Is that in Hokes book? I am not trying to start argument. I want to share. I may have learned a couple things by doing. I have Hokes book on computer, but there is a lot of information in there as well as information on web. It was certainly hard to figure out with google and youtube and no help from anyone. I have some other books as well. Chemistry etc. Not an easy subject. So, I am no expert. The ore did me very well on results. I was not expecting much. I stick with certain ones like dirty looking quarts.


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## jimdoc (Jan 23, 2018)

Not sure how any of what you are asking has to do with the thread you posted on.

Anything to do with ores should be in this section;
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=44
The majority of the forum is for e-scrap and jewellery refining. The people with answers about ores may only check that section.

A moderator can move your posts there if you ask.

Jim


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## FrugalRefiner (Jan 23, 2018)

andy3124fish, are you the original poster on this thread with the name addicted? Your writing style is very similar, and it's odd that someone else would dig this thread up after it's been dormant for 3 years.

I'm still not sure I understand the original post or the last 2.

Dave


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## Lino1406 (Jan 23, 2018)

Another source for cheap urea: some gas stations sell urea solution for diesel lorries


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## andy3124fish (Jan 23, 2018)

I did not mean to start long thread, just add my 2 cents, and was not looking for help on ore, but will check out thread on it and other stuff. I also do jewelry and computer stuff, but the ore has been good to me. I was looking at first to see what to do after you add baking soda while finishing. I did not see answer in book or answer of why it is not to be used. After dealing with my situation, I thought I would share opinion and what I did for next person that googles the same question. 
I am happy to see site like this and like to share my experience and learn from others. So, thanks for site. Yes, someone will do this in future and if they google for solution to what to do, they should see my 2 cents. Dont use baking soda, got it.


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## andy3124fish (Jan 23, 2018)

No to question about posting as different user. This was my first post and when every site seems to point to Hoke, it gets frustrating. I did not find in book and second time to site. I came back to see exactly what happens or understand if the problem may still be in some of my stock pot. I believe it turns into salt and co2 after cooking down and adding a bunch of water, but not sure. Works for me.


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## jimdoc (Jan 23, 2018)

I think you have much to learn, or else you are an accident waiting to happen.


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## andy3124fish (Jan 24, 2018)

It won't happen. The fact that it could has always been true in my life. Not sure why I am still here. 

No accidents will be from processing gold or other metals, etc. I have a safe, clean, inexpensive procedure that requires little effort now that I educated myself and yes ""that was a bit risky". That is in past. There is always more to learn and more risks in future. I tried to be as safe as possible and think I have thought through the risks. Now I see results or the reward of finishing and feels good. Thanks for concern.


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## patnor1011 (Jan 24, 2018)

Hey, nothing wrong with getting something. Your procedure let you have some of what is in there and it seems that you are happy with it. 

I am not that kind of a person. Well most of us here are not happy with half measures. It may sound greedy but I want all of it. Everything that is in there so I do *all that is needed to do it right*. 
It makes no sense for me to be happy with just "some" result.

Whatever is in that pile in your backyard is not going anywhere no matter how many books you need to read.


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## Geo (Jan 26, 2018)

It doesn't matter what process you are using, ionized metal of any kind is dangerous. It can enter the bloodstream through any surface of the body. Of coarse the lungs are more susceptible than any other part but ionized metal can easily be absorbed through the skin. No process is safe and no matter how many times you have done a process, there is always something that can go wrong. Complacency can be just as dangerous as foolishness. Overconfidence causes carelessness.


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## andy3124fish (Jan 26, 2018)

Thank you for the heads up. I know little about ionic dangers. I lost a good bit of gold or it is in the backyard. I realize I have put myself in danger and I got quick results, but I don't know at what cost. 
Do you ever learn everything to be safe? This subject seems endless.Who is not in danger? I am listening and always try to minimize that. I was not worried too much about ions. This is a hobby and it is nice to have hobbies that keep from doing other things that are not safe. I suppose all my hobbies have hurt me. Snowboarding, bicycling, etc. Thanks for input. I will at least make sure that I clean up my stuff and no one else is affected


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## butcher (Jan 29, 2018)

Andy,
This is an endless subject, the dangers most of which are also not obvious, working without a basic knowledge or understanding increases the dangers as well as making things more confusing, not to mention the loss of values and your frustrations...

Here is where your research and study can make a complicated science almost simple, and fairly safe.

The hard part is getting started, where to begin, as we all can see from the questions like using baking soda or for that matter urea, to get rid of nitric, just shows you have not learned where to begin.

May I suggest beginning with the safety section, and Google searches in that area of the dangers and MSDS...
During these collect scrap, studying how to separate and prepare it for recovery.

Concentrating on a more simple scrap like memory fingers, karat gold, sterling silver, or solder free gold plated pins, starting with simpler scrap to get the basic understanding of the processes, how metals react.

Using Hokes book as your guide, studying the processes (used for your scrap type), gaining an education of what to expect and why what problems and solutions you will expect, understanding the steps and their purpose, working educated to gain the experience, while you study the experiment, this way gaining an understanding of the metals and their chemistry.

With study, you are working with some basic understanding, with working with simpler scrap the complicated metals (like tin do not become problems, and interfere with your learning the basics.

As with any skill or study a basic understanding is key.

As far as safety we should read the instructions on the parachute before we start jumping out of those airplanes, studying safety when using chemistry where invisible toxins, deadly gases, and possible explosive metal salts are involved is just common sense.

So the only complicated thing about this is not the science, but gaining an understanding of where to begin learning and starting our study of a subject that we can spend a lifetime or two and not learn but a portion of it.

Forget about getting gold, it is all around us, learn how to study what to study, and where to begin.


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## andy3124fish (Apr 17, 2019)

Wow, why would my username pop up. I am a bit more educated now. I haven't logged in forever. ha ha


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