# suspected sterling



## mikeinkaty (Dec 24, 2012)

My silver testing bottle hasn't arived yet.

I have a 600 gram old ornate jewelry box that looks like sterling to me. It is heavily tarnished. I used my gold test kit by putting a drop of the 10K test solution, the 14K, and the 18K on the box. Oh, this box is not plated.

The 10K fizzzed a little and turned a light greenish-aqua color. The 14K really did nothing - no color change but some minor bubbles seen with a 10x loupe. The 18k turned a light aqua color and then some white milky color formed on top - little or no fizzing could be seen. Does this indicate sterling silver?

I did this with some sterling cornflakes and to me it looks like they had the same reaction??

Mike


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## philddreamer (Dec 24, 2012)

Did you file the item and checked the color under the surface with your loupe? 
Phil


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 25, 2012)

philddreamer said:


> Did you file the item and checked the color under the surface with your loupe?
> Phil



If it is plated then it's the thickest plate I have ever seen. But, it must be plated because I think the outside and inside is pure silver. It is really soft. I scraped pretty deep on the bottom and inside and it was still soft sliver with no other metal showing.

I finally found something on the internet about this piece. an art noveau jewelry box made in 1904. They said it was cast metal, plated with copper then silver. That maker also used gold plate on that same model. This one may be worthy of stripping. It is scrap and was up in our attic and is missing the lid.

Some of these are on the market and have been painted gold by later owners.

Mike


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## its-all-a-lie (Dec 25, 2012)

18k acid can be used to test if silver is present, but it will not tell you how much. The aqua colored milky substance produced with the 18k test solution is silver chloride. File down into the metal and put a drop of 18k on the file groove, if it produces silver chloride throughout the groove, i would say it is sterling.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 26, 2012)

I think I will try to disolve the plating on the jewelry box with weak nitric acid. Maybe start with 3 parts h20 and 1 part 70% hno3. Go slow and see if i can strip off the silver without getting to much of what's underneath.
Mike


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 26, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> I think I will try to disolve the plating on the jewelry box with weak nitric acid. Maybe start with 3 parts h20 and 1 part 70% hno3. Go slow and see if i can strip off the silver without getting to much of what's underneath.
> Mike


I don't care much for that idea, at all. A lot of that type stuff is some sort of die cast and I've though all along that's what it is. If it is die cast, which it very well could be, it could contain things like tin and you would end up with a huge mess. Also, with certain die cast formulations (high zinc, for example), the reaction in nitric could be violent. Try just a very small piece first. Weigh it first and then see how much silver you recover from it. My guess is that it won't be much.

Most of the die cast metals are soluble in HCl. Before doing the nitric, I would try a very small piece in hot HCl, maybe diluted a bit. Here again, the reaction could be violent. If it eats the inside metal out, you would be left with the silver as a foil.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 26, 2012)

I need to do a good test on it first. The exterior metal is colored like silver and very soft. Still waiting for my silver test bottle. The 18K gold test solition turns up a milky white after 1 minute or so. One description I found for it said it was a cast metal with a copper plate then silver plate. I have yet to find the copper plate though. Didn't really mess with it today.


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## butcher (Dec 27, 2012)

Many silver plated items are plated on a white metal that looks similar to silver in color.
Usually metals like copper, nickel, and zinc, cupron nickel, yellow brass, German silver (not really silver but copper nickel and zinc), or even just copper, or older antiques pure nickel.

Costume jewelry can be plated on most any base metal that can be melted and cast into a mold, some of these metals that melt easily are some of the most troublesome for us when in acids.


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## dukesoz (Dec 28, 2012)

hi Mike, I read in another forum, if you rub the object with aluminum foil and smell the item,and it smells like rotten eggs, then the object is silver.

I am a newbie, and would like opinions of this from some of the more seasoned metal guys.

I hope it is right ,as I have a tray that weighs 560 grams that smells really bad when rubbed with foil, the tray has no markings and I don't yet have testing acid.
I paid $3.00 for it at a flea market.

Regards Duke


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## TomVader (Dec 28, 2012)

The rotten egg smell is sulfur compounds which are transfering from the tarnish to the aluminum. It neither proves nor disproves the presence of silver. Your item may be silver, silver plate or something else altogether.


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## dukesoz (Dec 28, 2012)

Thanks Tom, I rubbed an old s/s spoon and got no smell.
What do recommend I try, to disprove the silver theory?

Regards Duke


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## TomVader (Dec 28, 2012)

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I suggest you study some chemistry. Hoke is a good place to start. There is also a wealth of information right on this forum. Try the Tutorials. Getting at least a rudimentary understanding of the chemical reactions involved in refining metals is essential before starting. Otherwise you may lose any valuable metals you were trying to recover or seriously injure (or kill) yourself or someone nearby, or both! I'm no expert, not by a long shot, in fact I'm a newbie myself. Study a little bit and you'll come to the realization that the reactions and chemicals that are involved in metal refining are VERY DANGEROUS. Once you have a grasp of that, study, learn and read. THEN develop a plan to proceed SAFELY.


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## dukesoz (Dec 28, 2012)

Thanks Tom, I have been lurking and reading in this forum for around 2 months for exactly the reasons you have stated.
With all due respect,I don't see the danger invoved in rubbing an object with aluminum foil.
The reason I asked the question was to see if anyone in this forum agreed to the smell theory.

Regards Duke


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## jimdoc (Dec 28, 2012)

Most sterling items will be marked sterling, don't really get your hopes up for anything that isn't.
Maybe if an item looks hand made and is signed it may have a better chance to be silver.

Jim


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## MMFJ (Dec 28, 2012)

dukesoz said:


> Thanks Tom, I rubbed an old s/s spoon and got no smell.
> What do recommend I try, to disprove the silver theory?
> 
> Regards Duke


phildreamer already answered this, mostly.... http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=16664#p168442

The aluminum foil was also answered - http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=quote&f=50&p=168768#pr168767

Be sure and read the answers, not just the ones you are looking for.

The foil may 'work', but only as a test for the possible presence of silver on the surface (which may/not work all the time and is certainly not conclusive - see TomVader's post).

It may provide useful as a quick indication for an initial test - perhaps at a flea market or something and you want to hopefully get a 'heads up' on if it may contain silver or not - I have tried some similar 'tricks' and some have paid off, some didn't. 

I agree with you that rubbing a piece with aluminum foil is not a 'danger', but certainly would not stake much on the findings, either!

The only way to TEST for silver is to cut deep into it (see phildreamer's post) and test it with chemicals (suggested throughout this thread). Any other bit of 'magic' may reveal an indication, but not a conclusive test.

As with most things, there are really no shortcuts, no matter how badly you want them to appear.


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## dukesoz (Dec 28, 2012)

WOW!!!! What a great introduction to the forum.
As I said in an earlier thread I don't have any testing acid yet,I have read how to test for silver.
All I was asking was,did anyone belive in the smell test.
I had searched for foil testing etc; and none had anything about what I was asking.
Guess I'll just keep lurking.

Regards Duke.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 28, 2012)

You need to read this if your dealing with Sterling Silver.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_hallmarks

Apparently using the "Sterling" hallmark here in the USA didn't catch on until about 1868. Since my 600 gram jewlery box is dated 4-4-04, the chances that it contains appreciable amounts of Sterling Silver is less than 1 in 10000!

But, I sure would like to know what that bright silver looking metal is!

By the way, I put it in a corning ware dish (under the fume hood) with about 1/4" of 15% HCL so that only the legs were wet and heated the dish. The HCL fumes made the plating on the bottom come loose! Man, was it thin! I had scraped right through it and never knew it.

Mike


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 28, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> By the way, I put it in a corning ware dish (under the fume hood) with about 1/4" of 15% HCL so that only the legs were wet and heated the dish. The HCL fumes made the plating on the bottom come loose! Man, was it thin! I had scraped right through it and never knew it.
> 
> Mike


Sounds like silver plated die cast to me. Very common on those bulky silver plated items. I would find a new project, were it me.


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## its-all-a-lie (Dec 29, 2012)

dukesoz said:


> Thanks Tom, I have been lurking and reading in this forum for around 2 months for exactly the reasons you have stated.
> With all due respect,I don't see the danger invoved in rubbing an object with aluminum foil.
> The reason I asked the question was to see if anyone in this forum agreed to the smell theory.
> 
> Regards Duke




I will agree that tarnished silver stinks worse than a jar of old pennies!


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 30, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> mikeinkaty said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, I put it in a corning ware dish (under the fume hood) with about 1/4" of 15% HCL so that only the legs were wet and heated the dish. The HCL fumes made the plating on the bottom come loose! Man, was it thin! I had scraped right through it and never knew it.
> ...



Yeah, that jewelry box went into the garbage can!


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 30, 2012)

This newbies experience with silver test solution -

This certainly is not an exact science that's for sure. Rubbing the test subject on the black stone then applying the test solution does nothing for me. The black stone makes the color impossible to see for me.

I bought a white plastic artists palette at Walmart (crafts section) for about $1. It's about 7" in diameter and has 10 circular depressions around the edge. I use my Dremel with a small rasp bit to put sample filings in the depressions. A known sample in the first, then the test samples in the others. THis I can see! 

Most of my Sterling samples turned a dark red and stay that way for a long time. I have some Sterling spoon samples that stay dark red for a minute or so then slowly start changing to an Aqua color around the edge but stay dark red in the center. 

Samples from a silver plated spoon turned Aqua almost immediately with a noted reaction. 

It is VERY helpful the have the known sample to see the contrast.

Oh, I put a test sample from a new penny in the palette and when the drop hit it the reaction was very quick and violent and turned to green slime almost instantly with a puff of Nitric Oxide gas! Glad I had my goggles on. The filings from the penny were barely discernable in the depression.

Mike


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## Anonymous (Dec 30, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> This newbies experience with silver test solution -
> 
> This certainly is not an exact science that's for sure. Rubbing the test subject on the black stone then applying the test solution does nothing for me. The black stone makes the color impossible to see for me.
> 
> ...


That's good to know. I'll have to try that.

Are you talking about the white palette where you put the paint in? It looks something like a carton of eggs, but it's white?

Kevin


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## jimdoc (Dec 30, 2012)

Plastic spoons will work also.

Jim


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 30, 2012)

testerman said:


> mikeinkaty said:
> 
> 
> > This newbies experience with silver test solution -
> ...


Yeah, that's it.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 30, 2012)

jimdoc said:


> Most sterling items will be marked sterling, don't really get your hopes up for anything that isn't.
> Maybe if an item looks hand made and is signed it may have a better chance to be silver.
> 
> Jim


And don't bet the farm that items labeled "Sterling" are 925 silver. I bought some spoons that say Sterling on the back but that test, as best I can tell, more like 800 silver. These were commerative spoons.

Also, anything labeled as "Continental" silver is supposed to be 800 silver. And, run away from "German Silver". The usual formulation for it is 60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc. Right now I'm leary of "Mexico" or "Mexican" silver. I've seen it stated as anywhere from 800 to 950 even though a lot will have the 950, 925, or Sterling stamp.

Plus you need to learn the British hallmarks for silver. Frankly, in my opinion, they are kinda wierd! Depends on the lions foot or some such????? I'm staying away from it till I fully understand their marking system.

Anyone know anything about the marking systems used on the early SW USA Indian jewelry? My sister had a drawer full to the brim of that stuff. I wish I had some of it to test.

If you're going to play with this stuff you need to learn the basics. And, I now see that there are a lot of basics to learn!

Mike


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 30, 2012)

Mexican silver is always iffy. Also, I've run into quite a bit of Mexican gold jewelry over the years that was 6 karat. Down there, it seems like whatever it is, it is.


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 31, 2012)

jimdoc said:


> Plastic spoons will work also.
> 
> Jim



I never thought of that! White plastic spoons, obviously, would work well.
Mike


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## mikeinkaty (Dec 31, 2012)

I think it would be good practice to know the amount of pure silver and the amount of base metals before starting with the nitric acid. The trick is for the reaction to end when all the silver has disolved AND all the nictic acid is exhausted. But, if the average content is 80% silver and 20% base metals then the total amount of nitric needed can be larger than anticipated. I figure the amount of nitric these formulas calculate is just so one will have an idea of about much you should have on hand before starting. You could end up using 50% less or maybe 10% more.


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## its-all-a-lie (Dec 31, 2012)

mikeinkaty said:


> This newbies experience with silver test solution -
> 
> This certainly is not an exact science that's for sure. Rubbing the test subject on the black stone then applying the test solution does nothing for me. The black stone makes the color impossible to see for me.
> 
> Mike




This is where the 18k testing solution works well, and it does work. As i said previously, the 18k test solution produces silver chloride and is clearly visible in the black/dark grey stone.


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## eeTHr (Dec 31, 2012)

mikeindaty---



mikeinkaty said:


> Anyone know anything about the marking systems used on the early SW USA Indian jewelry? My sister had a drawer full to the brim of that stuff. I wish I had some of it to test.



The very early Indian jewelry used coin silver (90%), and was almost always unmarked, except for maybe a makers symbol.

I know that by 1975 the Navajo were mostly using purchased Sterling sheet and wire. Then the best items had the makers symbol, and often "925" stamped into them.

By '75 there was also plenty of fake Indian-style jewelry made with "nickel silver" and plastic stones to imitate turquoise and such. By then, many underhanded people were involved in the "Indian jewelry" business. The nickle silver is slightly duller and greyer than the sterling, and it's hard to bend. The plastic stones can be detected by poking with a hot needle---it will melt and stink.


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