# UPDATE : Can someone please help with copper pgm seperation



## Slaughlin79 (Nov 27, 2018)

I solved my problem with help from another member and is working well so far. After dropping everything from solution with the zinc, and was having copper show up, I just re dissolved all the material and since there was copper already in solution I just used copper I had dropped from a nitric solution I had used to dissolve a bunch sterling silver. It worked and Ive got mor than I thought. I added the copper and turned up the heat and kept the solution acidic with additions of HCl and all the copper turned black. Here’s a couple pics of about half of what I’ve got. The plastic bowl is a test batch and the Büchner is a large batch. Thanks for all the help. And I quit using the aluminum and won’t ever used again if I decide to refine converters in the future again.




I started a batch of catalytic converters and dpf’s a while back and when dropping with zinc and aluminum “zinc is much better” I have gotten copper like I would not have believed. 

I actually dissolved the copper pgm precipitation, evaporated, filtered and then added my ammonium chloride solution and got a orange yellow drop. “More yellow than orange” I let that settle for a bit and came to find a thick layer of green which would be the copper. 

So after I filtered I didn’t even rinse the platinum/copper precipitation into the solution of now mostly palladium solution just so I didn’t accidentally dissolve some of the copper to put back in solution. After, I present the solution with chloride gas and the red palladium comes out. 

Now I understand that now I should dissolve with ammonia and that should leave only the palladium in solution and then I can filter than precipitate with HCl.

Here’s my problem. How do I separate the copper from platinum? If I just add water both will dissolve and If I add diluted 10% ammonium chloride nothing happens just like with the platinum. Will low heat dissolve it? I read a lot on a lot of different subjects and I know to search for answers but all I can find as far as copper platinum seperation is electrolyticly which I’m not interested in doing. This is the first time im doing this but does anything have an answer that’s not pointing me in a direction? I need to get this stuff finished up bc it’s been going on for almost a year


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## Platdigger (Nov 27, 2018)

pm sent


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## anachronism (Nov 27, 2018)

Platdigger said:


> pm sent



Not to cause a squabble here but I've been pulled up for offering to give someone advice via PM in the past. Correct Dave?


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## Lino1406 (Nov 28, 2018)

Separating Pt and Cu is easy. I'd like to mention that ammonium chloro palladite could be green


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## snoman701 (Nov 28, 2018)

anachronism said:


> Platdigger said:
> 
> 
> > pm sent
> ...



I don't know anything about this, but I don't know why we don't take greater issue with people who are leaching cats in a amateur environment. 

I have nothing against the original poster. I understand the desire to try things for educational purposes. But when it turns in to a profit motivated venture, one has to be more controlled.

Here would be my suggestion. Stop processing cats. Buy a quarter ounce of platinum and palladium. Keep your amounts small, use only as much acid as is needed. Learn to do the separation on small volumes. ONLY when you have mastered that, do you move on to cats. 

If you are cooking down leached cats without a sealed reactor, you are killing yourself, creating toxic waste and could be polluting your work environment to a point that it's going to be cheaper to demolish it than proper remediation of the danger.


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## ChemGeek (Nov 28, 2018)

@snoman701,
Actually what does it mean for you "cooking down leached cats"?
Leached means already free of PGM.
If so, then what's the point to "cook them down", whatever it means?
Leached cats are of no further use and one should dispose them off.
Or do you mean "concentrating solution of PGM produced by leaching cats"?


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## snoman701 (Nov 28, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> @snoman701,
> Actually what does it mean for you "cooking down leached cats"?
> Leached means already free of PGM.
> If so, then what's the point to "cook them down", whatever it means?
> ...



Yes, concentrating.

Disposing of aqua regia leached cats isn't that great of an idea. Batch them in sealed barrels. Cats leached in aqua Regia will still have a lot of value in them as you won't get a majority (if any) of the rhodium and a sizeable amount of the palladium.


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## ChemGeek (Nov 29, 2018)

@snoman701,
Chlorine or bromine based leaching solutions are more successful than aqua regia for this process and also more user friendly. Most of rhodium will go into solution as well. After such treatment catalyst has very little values left.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.459.4122&rep=rep1&type=pdf
There is also no need to concentrate large volumes of PGM present in leaching solution as these can be precipitated with suitable reducing agents like zinc, water phase decanted or filtered off and metals refined again in smaller volumes.
But I agree that a person who has already contracted platinosis would find life miserable, if his kitchen and bathroom is contaminated with platinum salts.
Mind you, during my working career I went through several kg of hexachloroplatinic acid and much more of palladium salts while processing spent industrial catalysts and no platinosis.
Allergies are funny though, one of workers was a company "azide detector". His face was turning into horrible red-purplish colour whenever even minute quantities of hydrazoic acid were present. He was a good evidence showing limitations of industrial fumecupboards. It was *impossible* to work with azides in his presence without making him miserable, so he was getting a time off whenever such work needed to be done.


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## Geo (Nov 29, 2018)

Have you tried small amounts of copper metal dust on the first dissolution?


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## snoman701 (Nov 29, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> But I agree that a person who has already contracted platinosis would find life miserable, if his kitchen and bathroom is contaminated with platinum salts.
> Mind you, during my working career I went through several kg of hexachloroplatinic acid and much more of palladium salts while processing spent industrial catalysts and no platinosis.
> Allergies are funny though, one of workers was a company "azide detector". His face was turning into horrible red-purplish colour whenever even minute quantities of hydrazoic acid were present. He was a good evidence showing limitations of industrial fumecupboards. It was *impossible* to work with azides in his presence without making him miserable, so he was getting a time off whenever such work needed to be done.



I helped clean up a mess, that's all that I'll say. It left me with a serious paranoia about what I could have messed up if I had developed platinosis. 

It's not just kitchen and bathroom. It would be life, if proper industrial hygiene were not adhered to. Does this person have an area that is wet mopped daily. Do they have refining specific clothes and boots. Do they take showers before putting their head on the headrest in their car. If not, cleaning up the low level contamination that could make one miserable is simply impossible. 

That is my reason for having little patience for "i tried processing cats in a bucket". I was the guy that cleaned up the mess.


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## anachronism (Nov 29, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> ChemGeek said:
> 
> 
> > But I agree that a person who has already contracted platinosis would find life miserable, if his kitchen and bathroom is contaminated with platinum salts.
> ...



And this is why you have people incinerating stuff in a pan in their back yard. Without having a clue about what contaminants may be there. Cadmium, Beryllium, all kinds of things going up in the smoke. Most of which is inhaled by not only the person doing it but their families and neighbours. 

Absolutely crass ignorance and stupidity. And yet we support it.

People here cry loudly and scream nasty words about how evil Cyanide is. It's a lot safer than this shit that you're advocating.


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## ChemGeek (Nov 30, 2018)

I would also notice that sieving chip ashes is actually *deliberately* making airborne fine dust often containing beryllium in addition to one carried out with smoke and I won't even go to details, what sort of niceties careless heat gun/sand bath treatment of PCB-s can release.
Main reason why I will never run this "technology" at my home or in my garden. Why beryllium should be any healthier than platinum? 
I is obviously *not* the case and beryllium related problems, should they develop, are far worse.
Ending "further exposure" does not resolve berylliosis as is usually the case with platinum allergy.

Honest advice about home refining is such: 
If you don't organize your lab at least to semi-industrial standard (means $$$$$) and you don't have sufficient scientific and practical knowledge how to operate it properly, you are likely to harm yourself and your family, particularly if your adventure is not one off trial but regular activity. Probably you will also harm your neighbors if you run cowboy like approach full throttle.
If you get there or/and your neighbours suspect something and further investigation showed unusual and harmful chemical elements in *their* gardens and source could be traced to you, then your legal liability and compensations paid could ruin you for life.
You are also constantly infringing various environmental regulations, small scale but still.
About all what amateur can do (assuming basic knowledge) safely is separating gold from gold plated pins and fingers.

But everyone is free to become new radium girl as s/he pleases.


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## Slaughlin79 (Dec 8, 2018)

How is buying a half ounce of fine platinum and dissolving that going to teach me a single thing about catalytic converters? I get it that some people have all the money they need to have their sealed system and you should be happy with that but that my question. I don’t understand how I can read through so many of these threads and see so much negative comments persuading people to not refine when this website is here to learn about and get help with refining and nothing is done about it. You people,the ones that have the money to buy all the fancy stuff that the little guy would love to have,and only the ones that try to bully people out of doing refining are the ones I’m talking it because not all are bad, must have been born with a silver spoon in your ass and not understand where hard earned come from. Not all people as lucky to have the funds to buy all the latest equipment. Im on a site that I cant abbreviate bc and have to use the actual because word but you jerks “I want to call you something else but I for one have respect for other people” can come on here and gripe a person out on a website that’s just for what the hell they are asking about. If you don’t have a helpful answer and just got on here to tell me to stop bc I don’t have a million dollars for the right equipment “if I had a million a could throw away I would be on a ranch right hunting by the way” then I ask you to not reply to my thread. So if no one else ever replies of what I just said so be it because this is the last refining I probably will ever do. But thank you for not giving one useful piece of information.


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## snoman701 (Dec 8, 2018)

Slaughlin79 said:


> How is buying a half ounce of fine platinum and dissolving that going to teach me a single thing about catalytic converters?



By learning the processes of individual metals, and mastering a simple system, prior to trying to master a complex system. It's the same advice Hoke gives. Start simple. 

Did you read Lino's advice? 



Lino1406 said:


> I'd like to mention that ammonium chloro palladite could be green


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## Slaughlin79 (Dec 9, 2018)

Look man no offense but I have a mom,a sister and a niece with a crap dad I have to support so buying an ounce or half of platinum just to play with us out of the question. Thank you to the people who helped me with answers I really do appreciate it.


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## Slaughlin79 (Dec 9, 2018)

For the people who actually don’t mind helping this question is for you. Is pgm black always a grayish color? I ask for one, no matter what I search I can’t find any reference except for being black which is deceiving 
,and two because I have some that is dark gray and some that is black? I used copper I got from a copper nitrate solution that was left over from some silver I had refined a while back. So what I did was used zinc to precipitate the copper and washed it and added to my pgm solution.


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## Geo (Dec 9, 2018)

Now that you have your PGM material concentrated, you can redissolve the PGM blacks in the least amount of acid needed. The safest way is to use HCl and chlorine gas, since you are dealing with a powder. If you have the experience, a gas generator works well. You will have a purer form of chloride solution. Simple heat and evaporate to concentrate and remove any excess chlorine. 

Ammonium chloride is added as a saturated solution to precipitate Pd. This should be a dirty drop. Collect the brick colored salt and add it to a beaker. To this add ammonium hydroxide and stir. Add small amounts and stir and wait. When you add solution and no more solids dissolve, filter the solution and rinse the solids with ammonia. 

Once you have a clean, yellow solution, add HCl a couple ml's at a time and more pure, yellow Pd salt will precipitate. Keep adding HCl until the solution is acidic. Now you have a very nearly pure form of palladium chloride salt.
Compliments of lazersteve and ms Hoke.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 9, 2018)

Slaughlin, if I may offer a friendly word of advice, I'd suggest dialing back your attitude a bit.

While you may not have liked snoman's suggestion, they were intended to help. Experimenting with small amounts of pure metals is a well accepted method of learning this art.

Many members can't afford the latest equipment. I am a frugal refiner and I make do with what I can. Others can afford better labs and equipment, and they should be able to discuss that here as well. We can all learn from each other. I may never have the level of equipment that some have, but I can learn things from them that I can make a frugal version of to suit my needs.

You seem to have a dislike for those who are more fortunate than you. That's a shame. Like many of our members, I have seen my share of tough times, when I had no food and didn't know where I would get money to buy my next meal. I've had to avoid my landlord when I couldn't pay the rent. But I never resented those who's lives weren't as hard as mine.

No one here knows your personal circumstances unless you mention them. So some posts and suggestions may not be appropriate for you. We suggest using nitric acid all the time, but we know it is expensive and difficult to find for many. It doesn't mean we shouldn't suggest it, and it doesn't mean that those who can't get it should become irritated at those who suggest it.

When someone offers me a suggestion, I try to thank them for their advice, even if I can't use it.

Dave


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## g_axelsson (Dec 9, 2018)

I totally agree with what Dave just wrote. I just want to add a couple of thoughts...

There are two kind of refiners here on the forum. The ones that does it as a way of earning their income, putting food on their tables. They might still have a burning interest for the art of refining but in the end the decisions on how to process and what to invest in is based on an economical reality. Then there are the ones that is pursuing this as a hobby, not relying on refining for their salary.

If you are pursuing refining to make an earning then you have to do some investment. Sure, you might start slow but every month you haven't started your business is another month of salaries lost. If an ounce of platinum is too expensive to buy to learn the trade then you seriously lack the cash to equip a lab and purchase material to refine. If you can't get an ounce of platinum back into metallic form then you won't be able to do it with material collected from scrap. You should be able to sell the ounce back after you have learned to refine PGM:s. If you can't sell it how can you expect to sell your product later on.

You might not need a full ounce, just a few grams would be enough for experimenting. It's an investment in knowledge and you only need it for a while.

Göran


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## ChemGeek (Dec 13, 2018)

Slaughlin79 said:


> Look man no offense but I have a mom,a sister and a niece with a crap dad I have to support so buying an ounce or half of platinum just to play with us out of the question. Thank you to the people who helped me with answers I really do appreciate it.


We are not asking you to buy most modern eqiupment to do small refining.
However initial $10000 in your labware allowing you to work with PGM without contaminating surroundings, next $10000 into premises separated from your main property, well ventilated and maintained is a must.

You should also have your own land and dont drop more than minute amount of waste stream down the drain or you will get an attention of authorities (and incure fines) soon enough. You must either electrolytically recover other metals or treat it with lime + 10%of gypsum (what makes them harmless and sent to licensed landfill site.
Assuming that you are skilled DIY person and keen chemist & engineer and a person who diligently look for 2nd hand items on different auctions, you will set a reasonable small scale operation at budget of $20000 or so. That is if you already have a suitable *land*.
By doing so, with time you could claim some invention (not so difficult in urban mining area), find sponsor, make patent application, base on this apply for government grant and end up with proper refining business, small scale but still.

If you live in flat/terraced/semidetached house with your mom, sister and dad this activity is not for you. Once you have contaminated your property with platinum salts and one of you got platinosis, you will need to abandon it or your life will be hell. If you harm neighbours properties, legal claims can ruin you. It is not worth.

And if you don't have $200 for a quarter of ounce of platinum to experiment with, then forget it entirely. 
$200 I am spending every 2 months on dog food.

I am not trying to be malicious but one has to recognize his limitations when they are there.

Mind you, many professionals here will deter you deliberately, because market is already not easy and they fear new competition coming.
They hate 3rd world, cowboy like practices, which are destroying their legitimate business and at the same time are damaging to environment and workers/bystanders health.


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## anachronism (Dec 13, 2018)

Slaughlin79 said:


> How is buying a half ounce of fine platinum and dissolving that going to teach me a single thing about catalytic converters? I get it that some people have all the money they need to have their sealed system and you should be happy with that but that my question. I don’t understand how I can read through so many of these threads and see so much negative comments persuading people to not refine when this website is here to learn about and get help with refining and nothing is done about it. *You people,the ones that have the money to buy all the fancy stuff that the little guy would love to have,and only the ones that try to bully people out of doing refining are the ones I’m talking it because not all are bad, must have been born with a silver spoon in your ass and not understand where hard earned come from. Not all people as lucky to have the funds to buy all the latest equipment.* Im on a site that I cant abbreviate bc and have to use the actual because word but you jerks “I want to call you something else but I for one have respect for other people” can come on here and gripe a person out on a website that’s just for what the hell they are asking about. If you don’t have a helpful answer and just got on here to tell me to stop bc I don’t have a million dollars for the right equipment “if I had a million a could throw away I would be on a ranch right hunting by the way” then I ask you to not reply to my thread. So if no one else ever replies of what I just said so be it because this is the last refining I probably will ever do. But thank you for not giving one useful piece of information.



You see, people like you are the problem with this world. I started with nothing. Zip. Nada. 

For a period in my life I was living in a car because I didn't have a roof over my head. That's classed as homeless in anyones' perception. Everything I have ever done is down to my own efforts from a base line of nothing. 

For someone like you to assume that people have a silver spoon in their mouth is a really bad thing to do. People work hard, and make sacrifices to get where they want to be. For some that place might be to have a happy family and raise their kids right, for others it's to be a millionaire but either way its not for you to take an entitled attitude and judge them.

We have the money to do the stuff you want to do because we firstly worked for it, and secondly we planned for it, and thirdly sacrificed other things to have it. We weren't entitled to diddly squat and neither are you.


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## anachronism (Dec 13, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> *Mind you, many professionals here will deter you deliberately, because market is already not easy and they fear new competition coming.*
> They hate 3rd world, cowboy like practices, which are destroying their legitimate business and at the same time are damaging to environment and workers/bystanders health.



Bloody hell what is this forum coming to? 

You've got full on professionals offering tens of thousands of dollars worth of advice out of the goodness of their hearts for nothing. 

You have that kind of attitude - well go somewhere else and see the standard of advice being offered. It won't begin to compare.


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## ChemGeek (Dec 13, 2018)

anachronism said:


> ChemGeek said:
> 
> 
> > *Mind you, many professionals here will deter you deliberately, because market is already not easy and they fear new competition coming.*
> ...


Go and read many posts criticising peoples, when they try to do something in a crap way, which would nevertheless work fine as long as they know what they are doing and at the same time are daring enough.
Wet ashing on fire stick and similar ideas.
And of course for a skilled person with a bit of a cowboy mind a result will be as good as for you with $$$$$$$ company investment.
You would fail while competing with them very much like Big Pharma with multimiliion dollars worth certified ISO/GMP etc facilities stand no chance whatsoever while competing with Mexican, Indian or Thai generic companies who care little about issuses like worker welfare, safety, environment, Intellectual property or GMP bureaucracy.
Their product if not adulterated later is still 98-99% pure and usually as good as 99.9% Western Corpo equivalent.
It can also be 10-1000 times cheaper.
Do you know, that many Americans are illegaly importing legitimate, *prescribed* drugs from Mexico's generic manufacturers?
They simply cannot afford Western "proper" procedures and corporate charges but still want to live...


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## snoman701 (Dec 13, 2018)

You aren't competing with them though. Without buying power, they have little in the world of refining. 

The methods used by irresponsible people aren't scalable. If they were they'd be used by larger companies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## butcher (Dec 13, 2018)

I am wondering where this is going?
How is this helping in our shared interest of refining?
Can we wind this thing down, and get back to helping each other?


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## snoman701 (Dec 13, 2018)

And I'm not really keen on the word irresponsible, a word I'd prefer is desperate.

Yes, you can recover pt/Pd/rh in a garbage can....but you can't do it safely in a manor that is competitive on the large scale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## anachronism (Dec 13, 2018)

This forum has helped countless people with whichever level of refining skill they choose to get to. For no financial gain. 

With that kind of entitled and hostile attitude (because that is literally biting the hand that feeds,) why are you here?





butcher said:


> I am wondering where this is going?
> How is this helping in our shared interest of refining?
> Can we wind this thing down, and get back to helping each other?



I'm sticking up for the integrity of the forum. These people have no place doing this.


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## ChemGeek (Dec 13, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> You aren't competing with them though. Without buying power, they have little in the world of refining.
> 
> The methods used by irresponsible people aren't scalable. If they were they'd be used by larger companies.


Go and see what this guy is doing on some of his videos:
https://goldenscrap.com/goldrecoveryvideos/ 
Any HSE/COSHH/OSHA/EPA official would get a hart attack seing it.
Yet he is successful, his approach scalable etc.
This needs to be recognized.


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## butcher (Dec 13, 2018)

I would like to hear the thoughts comments on the subject, from the guy who made those videos,


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## snoman701 (Dec 13, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> snoman701 said:
> 
> 
> > You aren't competing with them though. Without buying power, they have little in the world of refining.
> ...



I'm not going to go watch 50 videos. But here's what I've NEVER seen in any one of these videos. 

Assay...assay...assay. AND a comparison as to what you are actually making. The only thing that can be considered "profit for refining" is that which gets you beyond what you can sell it for in a competitive market...after reasonable labor fees, acid costs, etc. 

But generally, I would question anyone who thinks it's a scalable business opportunity to buy any e-scrap which is rich enough, on a consistent enough basis, and can be processed strictly using hydrometallurgy, even with some incineration. 

When you really compare what I can get for my material selling it directly to a board buyer, or even having it processed by someone like reldon, sipi, etc...it's not that you can't compete using AP, nitric, whatever...it's that you can't process enough product to pay yourself a reasonable rate, and on top of that, you have to source the product. 

You really think the guys shipping 40,000 lb loads to the real refinery are worried about guys dropping a few boards in acid?


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## snoman701 (Dec 13, 2018)

I mean, lets ask Jon...hey Jon...I've seen you process fingers and gold capped chips. Is there anything else that you save $$ if you process it yourself? 

How many pounds of material do you sell per year? And how much income can you derive from material that is more profitable to process yourself? Would you still be able to source that material if you weren't selling thousands of pounds of other boards per year?


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## Geo (Dec 13, 2018)

I am seeing that this discussion is as far apart as apples and potatoes. If you want to refine on a small scale, it is a hobby. If you want to refine on a large scale, it is a career. Just like any enterprise, capital is essential. Either you have to have some money or someone has to be willing to back you that has money. If you are trying to gain knowledge, try and do all you can on the cheap, but safely. No one is going to invest the whole farm on a get rich quick scheme in refining, or if they do, they should be allowed to lose everything to keep them out of danger. No one here is trying to be a financial adviser and micromanage someone else's misguided attempts to break into the lucrative business of small scale refining. Offer advice and move on. Follow it or don't. Your mother will miss you but no one here will bat an eye.


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## ChemGeek (Dec 14, 2018)

snoman701 said:


> But here's what I've NEVER seen in any one of these videos.
> 
> Assay...assay...assay. AND a comparison as to what you are actually making.


Gold reprocessed from platinides free sources by AR/SMB method will show 95%+ purity. More likely 99+% purity if done by competent person.
And if there are platinides as contaminants (Pd most likely would sneak in) it is still about as valuable as a pure one.
So don't overstate importance of an assay.
Your customer will take care of it anyway, before he is going to pay.



> You really think the guys shipping 40,000 lb loads to the real refinery are worried about guys dropping a few boards in acid?


... and yet 100 amateurs securing 400 lb of raw material each would deprive him of his feedstock.
Bulk lots are still being exported for refining in China so there is not so much left...
Like any valuable business dealing with chemistry, engineering and other high tech activities, refining is *also* being outsourced to Third World and China as we speak.
So don't you ignore this Pakistani guy from a videos here https://goldenscrap.com/goldrecoveryvideos/ who is processing tons in open air with low tech approach.
These kind of operations are often proving to be Nemesis of superficially sound Western businesses.


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## Geo (Dec 14, 2018)

If you watched his video on smelting MLCC's for Pd and silver, you can tell by the final weight that they are losing some somewhere. Either he is showing different batches in sequence or they poured some of it on the ground. Wet ashing in what looked to be a large aluminum pot. Workers walking around this huge pot of bubbling sulfuric acid in sandals and something that looks like diapers. No fume control. No respirator. The video should be removed. It's horrible. I wouldn't recommend anyone watch it unless it's a "what not to do" presentation.


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## nickvc (Dec 14, 2018)

I have stayed out of this discussion so far as in my view anyone trying to wet refine cats commercially will have a very short business life not to mention the health hazards they are exposing themselves to.
If you can source cats for free or very cheap which these days is not easy then home refining is a profitable exercise or can be but be aware of the health risks and the fact that you will never recovery all the values and you will be left with a toxic pile of debris to dispose of which is why most of the big buyers simply buy and sell on to the big processors, they know the value of each cat they buy and simply make their profit from selling on, but that takes very very deep pockets as I believe settlement times are at least 90 days which in a rising market is fine but if the price falls so does the margin.
Home refiners and small scale refining businesses pose very little threat to the major players as new laws and even more paperwork trails are now been enforced virtually everywhere in the developed world, this does not apply to every country as yet but give it time, environmental controls will be common place within a fairly short period of time, even China has now banned some scrap from been imported into the country as they decided a healthy population was better than a few people getting rich.

The one point I will stress here is that all the active members who post regularly are as one on the point of safety, we have lost a few members some from long term exposure to various elements and others who failed to heed the warnings, the reason we stress to read before trying experiments isn’t because we are lazy but because by reading and understanding the processes you gain a knowledge of the dangers involved.
While I applaud anyone who wants to try to better themselves or their families living conditions or simply to earn a few extra bucks I worry many do not see or perhaps do not want to see the risks when messing with chemicals, metals and or fumes, these are not to be ignored you can not only harm yourself and your family but your neighbors and the environment.
I have said before and will say again we are under scrutiny here from many official bodies on the forum because of the very nature of what we do and what we use, we have to be seen to do and say the right things about proper safety and environmental concerns, many struggle now to source chemicals so imagine what would happen should one of our members should really screw up.


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## ChemGeek (Dec 14, 2018)

Geo said:


> If you watched his video on smelting MLCC's for Pd and silver, you can tell by the final weight that they are losing some somewhere. Either he is showing different batches in sequence or they poured some of it on the ground. Wet ashing in what looked to be a large aluminum pot. Workers walking around this huge pot of bubbling sulfuric acid in sandals and something that looks like diapers. No fume control. No respirator. The video should be removed. It's horrible. I wouldn't recommend anyone watch it unless it's a "what not to do" presentation.


I disagree.
This wideo is very informative.
It shows how Third World is actually eradicating Western businesses in globalized economy.
Then don't be mistaken - once they gain some initial capital, they will improve their practice up to our 1960-ties standards... and still undermine our industry to oblivion.
I am not suggesting that this is a correct way of refining but West must understand why it is becoming uncompetitive in so many areas of business.

Regarding MLCC - new (post 1992) lots are Pd poor and in many lots Pd is absent. We don't know what the feedstock they got.


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## anachronism (Dec 14, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> Geo said:
> 
> 
> > If you watched his video on smelting MLCC's for Pd and silver, you can tell by the final weight that they are losing some somewhere. Either he is showing different batches in sequence or they poured some of it on the ground. Wet ashing in what looked to be a large aluminum pot. Workers walking around this huge pot of bubbling sulfuric acid in sandals and something that looks like diapers. No fume control. No respirator. The video should be removed. It's horrible. I wouldn't recommend anyone watch it unless it's a "what not to do" presentation.
> ...



Now although I disagree with your point of view, you have a right to make that point of view known, however that also comes with the right of others to tell you that they disagree and react accordingly. 

You've degenerated into talking baseless poop. If you had any understanding whatsoever of global business you would have thought twice and not posted this. As Geo said the standards in the videos are terribad. The AR leaching one I saw wasn't even thought through properly, never mind the safety concerns. You cannot seriously laud this as inspirational? How is it a good example to anyone?


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## ChemGeek (Dec 14, 2018)

I have red several recent replies in this thread.
Yes, guys you are right, however for various reasons you seem incapable to discuss legitimate subjects regarding refining in any meaningful fashion, maybe out of fear that officials might visit your scrapyards or whatever.
These subjects will not go away anyway, at any time there will be plenty of activities in the Third World countries or in China taking greater share of the market than you think. Yet out of desire to conform to prevaling narration you won't even dare to discuss issues which actually *are* affecting your prospects on the West.

Regarding availability of chemicals - many incidents involving throwing sulfuric acid and caustic soda on men and women *in the UK, in London*, will soon enough make virtually any discreet chemicals other than water, salt and sugar unavailable to public, regardless what bushman refiners do or not do.
So anyone in this business will need to set up company.

Anyway good luck for you, many threads here are quite interesting but open/honest discussion is sufficiently crippled, not to be worth to pursue anymore.


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## butcher (Dec 14, 2018)

ChemGeek 

I have red several recent replies in this thread.
Yes, guys you are right, however for various reasons you seem incapable to discuss legitimate subjects regarding refining in any meaningful fashion, maybe out of fear that officials might visit your scrapyards or whatever.

Wrong. we discuss legitimate subjects, in a meaningful fashion (although this topic is not one of those discussions), I surely doubt we have any fear of some official visiting our scrap yards or whatever.


These subjects will not go away anyway, at any time there will be plenty of activities in the Third World countries or in China taking greater share of the market than you think. Yet out of desire to conform to prevaling narration you won't even dare to discuss issues which actually *are* affecting your prospects on the West.

True these problems will continue,
Wrong in my opinion I cannot see where a third world country which is willing to kill themselves or their people to feed themselves while the (mostly corrupt) people in power have control over them, watch the nations innocent children die over a few grains of gold from a pile of burnt circuit boards (burning trash of a more developed nations). 
I cannot see how this would affect our prospects, How would this kind of activity affect a more developed country with people which educate themselves, and attempt to educate those poor souls which will kill their neighbor or themselves for a gram of gold or a piece of bread to eat?


Regarding availability of chemicals - many incidents involving throwing sulfuric acid and caustic soda on men and women in the UK, in London, will soon enough make virtually any discreet chemicals other than water, salt and sugar unavailable to the public, regardless what bushman refiners do or not do.
So anyone in this business will need to set up company.

Wrong again, in my opinion, We live in a world where chemicals are all around us, heck there are chemicals in our salt and rocks, any caveman could refine gold with as long as he was educated.


Anyway good luck for you, many threads here are quite interesting but open/honest discussion is sufficiently crippled, not to be worth to pursue anymore.

Wrong again, in my opinion, this thread has not been interesting for me at all, I have found no good, and see no good coming from this discussion. I feel it has detoured the forums object of learning recovery and refining and doing so safely and profitably...
Wrong again, I can see where members here have been open and very honest in the discussion, although not everyone agrees or would like to hear it.

I sure hope you are right on this one, My hope is this discussion soon becomes sufficiently crippled.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 19, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> So don't you ignore this Pakistani guy from a videos here https://goldenscrap.com/goldrecoveryvideos/ who is processing tons in open air with low tech approach.
> These kind of operations are often proving to be Nemesis of superficially sound Western businesses.


The price of success...
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axYKPbr9_MA[/youtube]

In my opinion it's only a matter of time before Umar Iqbal's refinery needs to shape up or close down. Just because the government doesn't act today doesn't mean you can continue to pollute your surroundings forever. As long as people earn a dollar/euro a day on scrapping electronics there are more acute problems to deal with, but the clock is ticking as the pollution is flowing downstream and accumulates in the environment. The knowledge of what to do and how to handle electronic waste safely already exists, it's just a matter of implementing and enforcing a regulation. The only reason it isn't done yet in Pakistan is that poverty and lawlessness is such a huge problem to overcome.

Sure, I could lower my refining cost and getting more successful in refining if I just pour my waste metal solution down the drain, but I wouldn't call that successful as the price to deal with the waste down the line is going to cost a lot more than it would have costed me to take care of it when I had a concentrated solution with metal salts.
I spend just as much time on treating waste as on refining. I want to be able to drink the water from my own property, grow my own vegetables and refine without worry and that is how I'm planning my lab.

Chemgeek, I honestly doesn't understand what you mean when you say


ChemGeek said:


> Anyway good luck for you, many threads here are quite interesting but open/honest discussion is sufficiently crippled, not to be worth to pursue anymore.


In what way is it crippled? I'm one of the moderators here and we would never moderate a discussion as long as it is civil and not putting people in danger by bad advice.

Göran


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## rickbb (Dec 19, 2018)

ChemGeek said:


> It shows how Third World is actually eradicating Western businesses in globalized economy.
> Then don't be mistaken - once they gain some initial capital, they will improve their practice up to our 1960-ties standards... and still undermine our industry to oblivion.
> I am not suggesting that this is a correct way of refining but West must understand why it is becoming uncompetitive in so many areas of business.



These arguments always leave out the most important aspect of recycling, the consumer. 

What will happen to the exporter who sells his service as environmentally responsible and gets caught shipping to some refiner in a 3rd world country doing what these videos show? 

Consumer outrage will drive the authorities to put them in jail and fine them so much they will lose far more than they ever made while deceiving the public.

Teaching western business how to be competitive? Hardly.


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## Slaughlin79 (Dec 20, 2018)

Uh Frugal you couldn’t have said anything further from the truth. I am not a professional by no measure and if I was I probably wouldn’t be asking for help. Now to say that Im displeased bc of furtune you should really know someone before you make false claims. I asked a simple question and people jump on you like I’m asking you to join my satanic church (no frugal I am not a satanist) and since I’m not doing this as a profession, and was just wanting to try it out because I like to challenge myself i don’t. Like many others on here have millions to spend on equipment I probably won’t use ever again. Do you understand what I’m saying now. No I am not rich but I do well enough with my fabrication shop(yes been welding and doing anything with metal since I was 14) but I am not and have not ever been upset bc if someone else’s fortune so please take that slander and put it your back pocket for someone that you actually know. Anyways I got off track. It’s sad when someone has to talk to you i private bc they won’t to take the chance of someone jumping down there throat for lending some helping knowledge to a person asking for help on a website built for just that. It’s like if I go to Betty Crocker website and ask the what’s the best ingredients way to make a cookie and get grilled about not haveing a the latest greatest professional oven. I don’t know if there’s a Betty Crocker website frugal I was just referencing something I made up just now. That’s how I feel. But in know way am I jealous. So please.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 20, 2018)

Thank you for your feedback.

Dave


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## anachronism (Dec 20, 2018)

FrugalRefiner said:


> Thank you for your feedback.
> 
> Dave



Spot on Dave.


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