# little solder ok in ap ,reuse,reuse,reuse! now lots solder



## steyr223 (Jan 2, 2012)

Hello everyone
Just like the title says.
If I am reusing my AP and a little bit of solder is introduced each time when does it become to much and what do I do
to get it out of my AP(not my. Auricle chloride)
also I think I understand the oxygen atom is what muriattic needs to make copper chlorate which is
What dissolves our base metals but doesn't the
copper chloride get used in the process or e even 
Evaporate, when do you add something and what do I look for.1more thing, is there any benefit to
using more solution than just to cover your stuff
Last time I finished the boards. I sprayed out my reaction chamber,added old AP Addison pins. Is this OK. Thanks steyr223


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## Geo (Jan 2, 2012)

just add more fresh hcl if the reaction slows. one way i found to remove some copper and alot of tin is to dilute the solution with some water. it doesn't take much.as soon as the water goes in copper chloride crystals will form.if the solution is too dark to see through, then add enough water to to make it emerald green (don't do this in your reaction chamber,use a bucket).remove liquid from the copper chloride crystals. use a hot plate and a non metal pot (crock-pot or coffee pot) and heat the solution hot enough for steam to rise and keep it hot to evaporate water. when the solution has been reduced back to the original volume remove the heat and allow to cool (decant liquid from any crystals that formed) as the liquid cools tin chloride crystals will precipitate. let the solution cool completely and all the crystals form that will and decant liquid back into your reaction chamber. top off with a little fresh hcl and your ready to go again.it seems like alot when you can drop the copper,neutralize and start a fresh batch but after you do it a couple of times its easy.


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## jeneje (Jan 2, 2012)

Geo said:


> just add more fresh hcl if the reaction slows. one way i found to remove some copper and alot of tin is to dilute the solution with some water. it doesn't take much.as soon as the water goes in copper chloride crystals will form.if the solution is too dark to see through, then add enough water to to make it emerald green (don't do this in your reaction chamber,use a bucket).remove liquid from the copper chloride crystals. use a hot plate and a non metal pot (crock-pot or coffee pot) and heat the solution hot enough for steam to rise and keep it hot to evaporate water. when the solution has been reduced back to the original volume remove the heat and allow to cool (decant liquid from any crystals that formed) as the liquid cools tin chloride crystals will precipitate. let the solution cool completely and all the crystals form that will and decant liquid back into your reaction chamber. top off with a little fresh hcl and your ready to go again.it seems like alot when you can drop the copper,neutralize and start a fresh batch but after you do it a couple of times its easy.


Geo, have a ? can you reuse the tin crystals and make stannious test solution. Just wonding.

Ken


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## Geo (Jan 2, 2012)

if it were pure tin then i would say yes, but this tin chloride is contaminated with many different base metals and would be unsuitable for testing purposes.


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## steyr223 (Jan 2, 2012)

Hay thanks. Geo
The reason I ask is because well 
let me show you the picture

To me it seems there is that kinda mucky coating on
all the pins and connectors and looks greyish. To
Me
Thanks geo


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## Geo (Jan 2, 2012)

that is tin plating out. add a little hcl to finish that batch and then clean the solution or start with new solution.


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## Anonymous (Jan 2, 2012)

Those fittings are brass and contain zinc.That is saturating the solution and forcing out everything else.That is why the solution appears clear.A saturated copper chloride solution will look like mud.


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## steyr223 (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks guys
Geo do you mean the batch is OK
or is it Fubar'd

Mic dude what's up. OK I know I'm color blind
But the solution is a murky green
when I shine light on one side you ciant see it on the other side 
The reason it looks clear could be from the sun was to my back and the camera was only like maybe 3 inches from the bottom of my reaction
chamber


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## Geo (Jan 2, 2012)

how long has it been like that? if its been a couple of days, then yea, start a new batch or clean the solution up. if you just started it add a few hundred ml's of hcl and let it do its thing and clean it up after.


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## steyr223 (Jan 2, 2012)

Whoops I just got what you said Mic
being colorblind I might have confused a
couple brass fittings for some gold plated ones maybe all of them :idea: :shock: 
Bur the pins are high yield "


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## Geo (Jan 2, 2012)

there are several base metal that dissolve in AP and nickle is another. nickle is the one that will stop the process cold.zinc is a metal used to precipitate gold so its low on the reactivity scale close to aluminum.zinc will also precipitate out of solution with the process i described.if zinc cements out in metal form then there shouldnt be much nickle in solution.


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## steyr223 (Jan 3, 2012)

Geo
my last process took about 10 days as I had to be properly situated
I emptied (filtered) the AP 3 different times

I forgot to say after i finishrd the process

Within 16 hrs I poured my pins and Connectors In
I added maybe 2-3oz of muriatic and 6 oz of peroxide
that was 48 hrs ago
thanks steyr223


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## Geo (Jan 3, 2012)

temperature is also a factor. cold will slow the process by alot, if you think its been taking more time than it should (your the one thats been using this setup) then it may be time to clean it up or start with fresh solution.


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## steyr223 (Jan 4, 2012)

So do you mean Start a different batch or put this one In
a new fresh solution
can't I just shake the bottle really hard to
Get the tin off :shock: :idea: 

Serious. So if the tin comes from the solder and goes into solution which I thought
Was insoluble in acid it then comes out of solution due to being lower on the reactivity
Scale than zinc and replates overnight my gold
Is. This close
Thanks geo for. The chemistry. Lessons
By the way I found some elemental mercury In powder form ..could you use this


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## Geo (Jan 4, 2012)

mercury is frowned upon in any processing,its too dangerous to handle and cant be sold in small quantities.don't touch it with your bare hands because it can be absorbed through the skin and stays in your liver for life causing all sorts of health problems.tin dissolves in hcl acid and will redeposit due to several factors,temperature change,ionic exchange and dilution of the solution are just a few.being lower on the reactivity scale doesn't always apply to tin as it will redeposit on to gold or copper,actually it will redeposit on any available surface,even glass.when i said start a fresh batch,i was talking about solution.if you do start with fresh solution give the material you have going now a quick rinse with some fresh hcl to remove as much of that crud as will come off ,and then start your fresh solution.if you can,heat about a quart of the old solution to a boil and remove from the heat and let it cool,this will force most of the unwanted base metal out of the copper chloride.after it cools you can add this back to your solution to jump start the reaction.


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## steyr223 (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks Geo
Ill try to do today
I am curious if tin plates back that easily isn't
there something you could put in that would take
The plating before it got to the gold say at the start if
you knew this would happen

Does this happen instantly (the into solution and then
out and plate) is there maybe a way to put in pins then after a
period take them out clean or put a Patsy platee :| in to collect all tin
Then put pins back.
These questions are just my learning process not actually to do 
Just to make clear I keep saying pins but the mini cable type connectors
are the issue even after removing with tourch and tapping out solder
And then smashing
Thanks


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## Geo (Jan 4, 2012)

i pretreat my pins in straight hcl before AP.this removes solder and any small pieces of copper wire.tin,when dissolved with hcl will stay in suspension until the solution changes whether its the state of agitation or change in temps.all the tin will not plate out,just the excess until you make more come out by either heating and cooling or dilution. im trying to fgure out why tin and zinc plates out better when you add a little bleach to the solution(when your cleaning it up, not with material in it).


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## steyr223 (Jan 4, 2012)

Geo wrote " mercury is frowned upon in any processing,its too dangerous to handle and cant be sold in small quantities.don't touch it with your bare hands because it can be absorbed through the skin and stays in your liver for life causing all sorts of health problems."
I haven't,I wont.that's why I wantto give it to you 

I learned from fluminates.
but I figured you and some others here could use it responsibley
Ill pay the postage (had a really really really good day)
Geo gets first if not anyon else thats been here for say
The start of time
it's nit much ill have to look
"I think jar was 1 1/2" in diameter maybe 2" of powder


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## shaftsinkerawc (Jan 4, 2012)

How did you come up with the following info? "By the way I found some elemental mercury In powder form .." I've not heard of this, I have heard of mercury/gold sponge which could appear powdered, or crushed cinnibar which is an ore of mercury.


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## steyr223 (Jan 4, 2012)

Found in dumpster an aerospace company I think they do
Some kind of hot and cold valve plastic brass aluminum and
A lot of stainless is what I see


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## steyr223 (Jan 4, 2012)

Cinnasorb
Elemental mercury
absorbent base
Pic in sun through very thick dark bottle


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## butcher (Jan 4, 2012)

Cinnasorb
Sounds to me like a brand name for an mercury absorbent material, like powdered zinc.
are you sure that is not just zink powder?


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## Geo (Jan 4, 2012)

here you go,

Most Reactive 
Lithium 
Potassium 
Calcium 
Sodium 
Magnesium 
Aluminum 
Manganese 
Zinc 
Chromium 
Iron 
Lead 
Copper 
Mercury 
Silver 
Platinum 
Gold Li+ 
K+ 
Ca2+ 
Na+ 
Mg2+ 
Al3+ 
Mn2+ 
Zn2+ 
Cr2+, Cr3+ 
Fe2+, Fe3+ 
Pb2+ 
Cu2+ 
Hg2+ 
Ag+ 
Pt2+ 
Au+, Au3+ 
Least Reactive 

for our purposes gold would be at the top with lithium at the bottom.

i believe the mercury is an aggregate used in dentistry to form fillings.

EDIT: i spoke to a dentist friend of mine and he told me its part of a clean up kit for mercury spills.its a three piece kit with a base (whats in the bottle) and an activator (sulfamic acid) and a neutralizer.


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## steyr223 (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok I have taken all pins out,cleaned my reaction vessel with water. And muriatic 
Now I took all pins into Bucket added muriatic and swished around quit a bit I did this 5 timed
I noticed a lot of gold so I put through screen and collected .this is what the pins look like now
Is the gold been deplated or is it covered up they look done
Any ways I will trial them in a crockpot while I filter the AP solution
Geo can u shoot me your info again.my phone only shows the first part of the pm after it has been read once
Thanks


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## steyr223 (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok wrong. Not doneq
This is after muriatic in the crockpot twice
and rigorous stirring

I noticed. After I stopped stirring the tin would plate back quickly, are least it was much more golden directly after stirring in crock pot (Do not breath these fumes)
At this time I would pour off. Muriatic and add new muriatic did 3 times
I our all in new AP solution 64oz muriatic 32oz peroxide


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## goldenchild (Jan 5, 2012)

I think this is a good example of why it would be best to use an H2SO4 cell for the type of material you are trying to process. AP is reserved more for material where the plastic(or other non metal material) is much higher than the metal content. Ex. memory fingers. You live and learn.


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## steyr223 (Jan 5, 2012)

Goldenchild
I have my next batch sitting in muratic
I will let you know if I agree when finished

Geo can't read pm at all now the view cuts all off after. The first pm (no scroll in individual pm)
And the control panel does nothing when deleting marked pm
Let me know if you still want after you see this unless You have the base it's no good from what I can make out it's for cleaning up mercury spills


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## Geo (Jan 5, 2012)

i spoke to a dentist friend of mine because i knew it was used in his dental office.at first i thought it was aggregate for silver fillings but after speaking with him he explained it was a component from a kit that contains the base (what you have) and sulfamic acid and a neutralizer. its used to clean up mercury spills.im not really sure what i could use it for.if anyone else can use it then pass it on.

btw, its true, 8th grade. i went to the 9th but never finished. i had to quit and get a job to support my new family.babies making babies.  but now after all the years thats went by i wouldnt change a thing as my children and now my grand children is my whole life.


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## steyr223 (Jan 5, 2012)

I was at the post office yesterday trying to send the package but my phone wouldn't work ,glad it didn't I couldn't find your information to send that so after banging my head against the wall for 3 hours and the form getting stuck in a loop making me sign on going to page to make me sign on going back page

Does anyone else have this problem

Anyways my pins plated back over again but it's cool I see a lot more gold floating around so I wash it do the same thing then I just keep recovering

Each time an issue arises I accelerate my learning 10fold. If all went perfect I wouldn't learn nothing
Any anx all suggestions are always welcome thanks eveeyone thanks geo I'll keep you posted


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## goldenchild (Jan 6, 2012)

steyr223 said:


> Goldenchild
> I have my next batch sitting in muratic
> I will let you know if I agree when finished



It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It's a matter of what has been proven to work. Although you will eventually recover all of your gold the method you are using is not the most efficient. With an H2SO4 cell you could recover the gold from your batch of scrap in 15-20 minutes. Thats including setting up the cell. I just wanted to point this out for anyone new to the forum reading this thread. It will give them another avenue to explore. My comments weren't meant to be negative so please don't take it that way. Please let us know when you are done and your lessons learned.


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## steyr223 (Jan 7, 2012)

wipe the smirk of your face :lol: 
Lesson learned :roll: 
The only reason I did this in AP was one of our members
A highly respected member had answered one of my comments-
about all metal based scrap goes In cell with-
AP will work for anything it just takesmore time
And one more thing
You were wrong :shock: I didn't recover all my gold.
So there :mrgreen: 
I decided to pull Everything
Out on the 8TH wash and put it in a cell
I got tired of the plating over q:-- why does everyone referr to a copper mesh when Steve shows 2 lead pieces anode and Cathol.


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## tek4g63 (Jan 7, 2012)

I agree with goldenchild that a deplating cell is faster. But I just wanted to post this for any new members. Faster is not always better.

A deplating cell has to be monitored very close. Bcause of heat and to try and reduce the ammount of base metals that could go into the solution. Both the cell and the AP method have their dangers and you need to be very fimmilar with all the dangers before choosing the best method for you personally.

I chose the AP method for my pins because I personally don't always have the time to sit and monitor a process because I could get called into work at any time and because I have 2 small children that keep me busy. But the biggest reason I chose the AP method is because hot acid does not forgive......AT ALL! Like I said before both metods can be very dangerous, but the other day I splashed a very tiny blob of AP on my arm and I washed it immeaditly with water and soap nd I did not get hurt, luckly. But had I made that mistake with hot acid from a cell I wuld have undoubtly had a burn.

Again, I want to say to everyone. Learn everything about yur process before you proceed. Then start very small testing to be sure you can acomplish it safely before just copying what you see on a video. (Steve, your videos are awesome by the way!) And keep in mind what I said at the beginning of this rant, faster is not necessarly better.

Thank you fo letting me put in my 2 cents.


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## qst42know (Jan 7, 2012)

The cell is best run at room temperature. The greatest risk is in concentrating battery acid for the cell.

But yes a drop of concentrated sulfuric may even have left a mark.  

A cell and an hour or two when the kids are in bed and you could have been finished and everything put away safely.


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## tek4g63 (Jan 7, 2012)

Yes qst42know I understand the cell is best run at room temp. But doesn't it build up heat as it runs? And from what I have read this temp must be watched carefully and at times the process will have to be stopped to allow the cell to cool. Is this correct?

And the process for concentrating the acid also involves heat, and therefor hot acid, correct?

I'm not advocating either of these process and I'm sorry if it came out that way. I mearly wanted new users to understand that just because 5 out of 6 people say a process of any kind is better than another does not mean that it would be the best for everyone.

I would like to set up a cell my self one day, so I'm definatly not "knocking" this process.

But for what it is worth, my oppinion (and its just that, an oppinion) is that as long as your are safely following a proven process of any kind and it works well for your situation, what ever it may be. Then that process is the best.


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## philddreamer (Jan 7, 2012)

Tek, keep in mind, that if is just a hobby & time doesn't matter, the AP is fine; but if time is of essence, because its a bussiness, then the faster the better... again, just my opinion.

Take care!

Phil


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## steyr223 (Jan 7, 2012)

Wow thanks everybody I do appreciate all the input
not positive I think harold was the 1 that said
something like to reinvent the wheel is not the challenge
but to follow step by step procedure that is proven without error
is
He was so right
here I thought I was a pretty smart guy
Follow step by step procedure no problem
17 times later ,getting there

Then my friends ask me to help them teach them show them and I just laugh 
Thanks steyr223


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## Geo (Jan 7, 2012)

there is a place for all the processes we do but in practice it all comes down to what a person is comfortable with doing.for a long time i didn't want to use AR because i didn't know how to clear the free nitric and messed up the first time i tried badly.i did knuckle down and practiced till i got it right and now i have no problem with it.the first recovery of Escrap i did was with a stripping cell.the first 15 pounds of pins i did was in a scrap bucket for a couple of months as i was learning something else, in that time the pins had oxidized and it was a big green mass.when i decided to sell scrap i was thinking they may turn it back because they couldn't tell what it was, so i rinsed then in some diluted hcl.when i did :shock: i could see gold plating on many of the pins.i dried them and tried to pick through them but it was way too many,almost half still had some gold and i had to run them through the cell again.i believe the word for this is convenience,when you sacrifice one thing for the sake of time.the cell is faster,but to get the most out of it is very tedious or you will sacrifice gold for the convenience of speed.AP is sure that you will recover all the gold you put in as long as you dont spill it or throw it away somehow.


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