# Where to begin



## viacin (Oct 3, 2008)

Ok, this is the question I've been trying to answer for myself all this time, but it seems the more I learn the farther I get from a starting point, mainly due to my initial assumptions.

I have found a huge supply (300 lbs/day if I called around) of extremly cheap and impure gold scrap. I have had the manufacture of this scrap "estimate" - a.k.a. guess - that it is between 3k-6k. So if I do my math right, that's 12.50% - $25.00% pure gold. Now I really do have my doubts if there is any gold in this stuff at all, because it's so cheap (At least it seems cheap to me, about $500/ lb), so my first step was to aquire a free sample, which I did. Now, where do I go from here to see if there is any gold in it at all? Should I assay it? bath it in Nitric and see whats left? Run a AR process on it? Or is there a better way that I havn't read about yet? I'm looking for the absoutly cheapest way to do this that won't get me too commited in case this doesn't work. Keep in mind that I have no equiptment, no chemicals, and no hands on expierence, just a lot of knowledge on my side, and hoke's book as a reference.

Thanks for helping me in advance get out of my confused state and on to some real work.


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## viacin (Oct 3, 2008)

btw, I'll buy whatever I need, I just don't want to get anything I don't need yet


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## Husker (Oct 3, 2008)

Are you sure this was not 3% to 6% gold content? If so (assuming 4.5%), then $500 per pound is not overly cheap. 454g of 4.5% gold, at a spot price of $850/ozt comes to about $560. 

If this is 3-6%, and varies, $500 is not such a great deal. Sometimes (if closer to 6%), you will get a fine deal, but other times (if closer to 3%), then your deal certainly sucks. If you find that it is 3-6% and they want a flat rate, then you better be able to properly do a quick assay of the material, and avoid buying any that is under 5%.

If it is truly 3k to 6k, then buy ALL you can. At 300lb a day, simply get a truck, and drive it weekly to a refiner. Even if they take 10% for refining costs, you will still be doubling (or tripling), your money. I would have a hard time believing that any company would let that much value simply walk out the door. They could easily truck it to a refiner themselves, and recover 90% or more of the market value.

Jim.


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## Noxx (Oct 3, 2008)

Electrolysis seems the way to go...

My 2 cents.


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## viacin (Oct 3, 2008)

I was told by the seller, Quote:

"They are from a company that blends & cuts "different base metal" into scrap. The supplier claims it varies and may be from 3kt-6k but 
gives no guarantees, therefore we make no claim as to a percentage of any actual gold content." 

I've got the price to $535/lb right now, with the guarantee of a steady stream of 1 to 50 lbs per week delivered to my house depending how fast I can process it. I'm still trying to negotiate him down to about $500 a lb though. 

If there really is gold in this scrap, the math says I'll be a very rich man very quickly, but right now that is doubtful in my mind because the company that makes this scrap doesn't even know the Karat, and to be honest, this seems too good to be true. I'm not sure what the companys actual product is, but this is the waste scrap that they cannot use. It's very fine, flaky, and gold colored.

_All I want to do right now is see how much gold is in this junk_, if any at all. I just don't know the best and cheapest way to go about doing that. Nitric, AR, A assay, or maybe something I have not learned yet. Any suggestings?


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## Noxx (Oct 3, 2008)

Ask them for a sample that is representative of the lot.
Take, lets say 20 grams, and process it in AR.
If it's 3k, you should get 2.5g

Just be sure to use a scale that is accurate enough.


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## viacin (Oct 4, 2008)

thanks noxx. I'll give it a go. I'm going to make a shopping list today and get everything ordered. 

Speaking of scales....I thought I found a good deal on ebay for one of those 500g x 1g pocket scales, but once it arrived I realized that 1g increments is far too large to be of any good use. Speaking of which....anyone wanna buy a never used scale?


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## Husker (Oct 4, 2008)

I bought a 500g .1g scale on eBay for under $15 delivered. They are out there. 

That scale is with .1g ro .2g to a fine "certified" scale in the 20 to 200g range (tested from my jewelry store buddy).

They can be found at reasonable prices. I also bought a 3500g gram scale (full gram) from harbor freight for $18 or so. It is accurate enough for when you get to large items (like 2-3 lb of scrap), or a set of cat honeycombs. At that size, +- 1g is just fine, and from 10 to 500g, it is right in line (+-1g) with my little 500g unit.

Jim.


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## Noxx (Oct 4, 2008)

I bought a 50 grams scale with an accuracy of 0.001g.
That's useful when doing semi-analytical chemistry


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## OMG (Oct 4, 2008)

About the scrap you are being offered...
I would think the guy could do elementary school math, or at least know someone who does.
You will get ripped off.
Instead of getting him to send it to you to refine, tell him to send it to a commercial refiner, and then he can send you all the extra profits. Hell, tell him to send me some extra money too.


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## viacin (Oct 4, 2008)

thats what I wish I had bought. or at least .01g


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## viacin (Oct 4, 2008)

lol OMG, you're probably right. I'm about 99% certian that it's a too good to be true thing. My only hope lies in the fact that the seller usually repackages this scrap into smaller lots and sells it for much more than the gold is worth to other companies. but if you buy it in bulk like he is, the price is still cheap. I just wonder why the company that this came from in the first place isn't worried about all this free money going out their door.

Everyone's in a position to make a profit here, but it's hard to believe that the third guy on the list (me) is gonna make 80% of the cash. I'm not that lucky of a person, so my doubts are high. Then again, never pass up a good opportunity untill it turns into a bad one.


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## Platdigger (Oct 4, 2008)

Sounds like a scam to me.
Randy


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## qst42know (Oct 4, 2008)

Do your own sampling, or be present when they do. A true representative sample would be vital to success. Read up on the process of sampling first. I have seen around this site that a professional assay can be had for as little as $35 I think. Even if it cost considerably more it would be cheap insurance that you weren't being fleeced.

What do they say at the poker table about spotting the sucker in the room?

The alternative is to learn the process well and work out a percentage split if they are not trying to rip you off it could work best for both parties.

Chris


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## viacin (Oct 26, 2008)

Finally! I have made some progress. I made my nitric this weekend, and then processed my sample with it. Here's what happened:

I put my sample in a beaker, and poured in just a bit of nitirc. At first, nothing happened and I felt my heart drop, but then about three seconds later my little pile of fine scrap puffed up and I saw my first BFRC! Man, I was excited! So I poured in enough nitric to cover my sample and wow! What a cloud! I placed my 2-liter bottle full of frozen marbles over the beaker and the cloud stayed put and began condensing on the marbles. I must thank qst for his post on this, it really helped!

My little pile of scrap quickly disolved away. My nitric turned a very dark green (does this mean my scrap has a lot of copper in it?), with little yellow flakes floaking in it! I let it sit for a good while, and once the BFRC went away I stepped up and stirred. I got a bit more smoke, but not much. I poured in about 50ml more nitric to see if I would get more reaction, but I didn't. I put the solution on the hotplate and boiled it, stirring every now and then. I ended with a vigirous stir untill all the red smoke was gone. I then tested the nitric by droping in a tiny piece of scrap I had left and it was still VERY active, disolving in a second or two. 

I poured the solution through 4 filter papers and washed it down to a spot with a spray bottle. I then put the filters in a corningware bowl and set it on the hotplate to dry out. The filter burned a bit, turning brown, but it was ok. 

I came in, weighed 4 filter papers and came up with 3.7g. I then weighed my 4 filter papers with my gold and it weighed 4.7g exactly. 1 g of gold. I started with 11.8g of sample, and ended up with 1g of gold. 8.5% gold. Not too bad, surely no 14k jewlery by far, but for the price it is looking great! Acording to Hoke, since this scrap was so impure to begin with, my final result should be almost .999%. Would you all agree with this statment?

Now, I have made it as far as I have been recommended to go. I would assume my next step is to burn the filter off, and then what? How would I get the gold out of the ashes? If I run it back through nitric, or AR I will have to filter it off yet again. I'm more than sure this is a very simple solution since you all must do it every day, I just haven't figured it out yet.

Wow, I'm excited. I wonder how I'm going to sleep tonight. I want to buy more scrap! lol, I'm hooked! I cannot thank you all enough for your help this past month. I have learned so much and came so far. I would still be stuck in the mud if it wasn't for you guys! Or maybe dead, if I followed some of the advice I've found outside of this forum. I'm very grateful and cannot wait to move on to the next step! Thank you all.


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## qst42know (Oct 26, 2008)

You should still hit it with HCI/chlorine bleach, or AR. Nitric should have removed most base metals. There still may be other metals not affected by nitric. You want to be sure all that remains is only gold.


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## Harold_V (Oct 27, 2008)

viacin said:


> Acording to Hoke, since this scrap was so impure to begin with, my final result should be almost .999%. Would you all agree with this statment?


While you might think that the gold is 999, when you refine it you'll see that it isn't. If that were the case, no one would be dissolving their values to get them pure. You may find even a once-through isn't enough to achieve the desired results. 



> Now, I have made it as far as I have been recommended to go. I would assume my next step is to burn the filter off, and then what? How would I get the gold out of the ashes? If I run it back through nitric, or AR I will have to filter it off yet again.


No, you won't, and you may not have needed to filter the first time. If the recovered gold settles well, all you need do is siphon off the solution, taking care to not pick up any of the solids, then rinse with tap water. Allow to settle, siphon again. When the wash is clean, dissolve the solids with AR and follow prescribed procedures for recovery. 

Or-----

Assuming you filtered, one good trick to use is to incinerate until you have consumed all of the carbonaceous materials, then give the solids a wash with HCl. That will often pay huge dividends down the road, when it's time to filter the gold chloride solution. Boil in HCl, then take up the solution with tap water and allow to settle. Siphon. Rinse with tap water as you did, above, then when the rinse solution is clear and you have siphoned off the last rinse solution, dissolve the gold. If traces of the clear rinse water remain, no big deal. The material need not be dry for the dissolution process. This operation is very useful when you're trying to improve the quality of your gold. 

If your sample lot of material was gold plated, a yield in excess of 8% makes no sense. I would expect you to be down around a half percentage point at best. :?: 

Harold


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## viacin (Oct 27, 2008)

Alas, my hopes and dreams have hit a brick wall. I had a odd feeling about what you said Harold, about 8% being too high, so I decided to weight it again this morning. I must have still had a few drops of water in my filter last night, because the new weight only yeilds me .2 grams of gold. This means I only had a 1.7% yeild. All this makes my scrap too expensive.

When I saw this, my heart sank. I felt like quitting. But I'm not, I'm going to climb this brick wall and keep going. There are a few other suppliers from different companies, and one of which is involved in the manufacturing of this material, and swears his is 2K-3K. I believe I will try his next, although his price is double what I was going to pay. And there is always scrap jewlery and e-scrap.

Also, I would not think this material is plated, however anything is possible. I have been told it is a mixture of brass, zinc, and gold. My used nitric was a dark green, which makes me think it had a lot of copper in it. But I could see brass doing the same thing. I'm no expert though.

I believe I'm going to try a few more samples from different companies, find the best one, and then begin AR processing. I will keep all my filters obviously, and run them through hcl at a later time. I do hope the weight I'm getting now will be close to my final yeild however ? :!:


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## Noxx (Oct 27, 2008)

Viacin,
Copper would turn your HNO3 sln in blue.


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## viacin (Oct 27, 2008)

You're right! I googled "blue nitric acid" and found my exact color AFTER filtering. It says they mixed it with copper. hmmm. But it seemed like it was a very dark green before filtering. It could have been blue, but it would have been a extremely dark blue. 

My assumption was based on this, copper plate in nitric acid: 
[img:550:412]http://www.uncp.edu/home/mcclurem/ptable/copper/cu_6.jpg[/img]

This however was my exact color after I filtered:
[img:640:480]http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/jcesoft/CCA/CCA3/STILLS/PENITRA/PENITRA/64JPG48/12.JPG[/img]


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## qst42know (Oct 27, 2008)

If the yields are consistently low chances are good the big refiners have already turned their material down. Track your recovery costs and time and offer them a split of the actual recovered values.


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