# Smelting



## Keithnhra (Oct 10, 2017)

Just got a electric smelter. Using Chapman flux and thinner. I keep losing the gold and I don't know why. I believe it's in the mix. Sometimes I make buttons fine. Other times just slag and you can see gold is stuck on bottom of crucible. I'm really wasting good gold now. Not just fines flakes of known 22kt. Please help still new at this


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## g_axelsson (Oct 10, 2017)

More details please!

Are you *smelting* ore or *melting* metallic gold?
What exactly are you putting into your furnace?
Any pictures on the slag and crucible?

Göran


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## Keithnhra (Oct 10, 2017)

Actually mostly ore. Id post pictures but camera is smashed. I do melt some placer but mostly hard rock gold. Using Chapman flux, thinner. Crucible is a 1kg with 110 electric furnace. Had heat at 1075 c for 1 hour and about 4 table spoons of material


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## Keithnhra (Oct 10, 2017)

I should say some ore is bog iron ore. I'm actually from new England


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## Keithnhra (Oct 10, 2017)

Sorry my phone is terrible


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## g_axelsson (Oct 10, 2017)

Why do you think bog iron ore contains 22k gold?

Göran


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## Keithnhra (Oct 11, 2017)

Well I had it assayed and had a success making button. So then had it tested itself. Which also the gold known in my area is from iron ore and is also 22k. Also have Vermont ore at 23kt... very nice stuff. Very pure


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## Keithnhra (Oct 11, 2017)

Also I have copper,silver,trace of platinum (b.c glacial) I assume. Ore I had assayed was 3 oz to the ton. Silver 1/2 ,platinum .18, copper 2.


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## Keithnhra (Oct 11, 2017)

I started about 8 months ago. Mined pyrite for 2 months as well as a bunch of different fools gold lol. So much to learn on the subject. I work sun up till sun down then research 4 hours a night. I'm dedicated and I absolutely love it. I been a mechanic and build race cars for a living so I like to use my head!


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## jimdoc (Oct 11, 2017)

Keithnhra said:


> Well I had it assayed and had a success making button. So then had it tested itself. Which also the gold known in my area is from iron ore and is also 22k. Also have Vermont ore at 23kt... very nice stuff. Very pure




I don't really think you would call gold in an ore "22k" or "23k"
Nuggets yes, ore no. Ore would need to be refined.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Oct 11, 2017)

Id like to see this 22-23k material.
Have a picture or three?

Maybe this is a negative nancy way to think, but..
-Is some guy selling you this ore?
-Were you magically able to get a nugget out of it the first time, and maybe the 3rd or 4th time after you mentioned your problems to the seller?
-Where and how was this assayed? Did you get a print out, or a screen shot, or just verbally told?

Hopefully I'm way off, and thats not the case, but... Something seems a bit off.


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## Keithnhra (Oct 11, 2017)

I should say the flakes /placer were placer. The only success I had melting a button was 22k. Like I said with ore melting I am having issues! Are you just trying to be a keyboard warrior or do you know how to melt ore? Idk about you but I was just cleaning up bedrock cracks in a rather challenging spot for the last 9 hours. Not really in the mood for someone trying to call me a fool. I asked a question if you can't answer please respect me as we are strangers and that is the proper way men should be!


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## Keithnhra (Oct 11, 2017)

*flakes were placer and picker obviously which was tested several times . Button tested obviously after I made it.


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## Keithnhra (Oct 11, 2017)

I am from a area with massive glacial deposits in the Berkshires. I also have native gold in bedrock. Which many have been looking for since 1870s. Issue now is gold mining in this area is completely new to people. They know nothing. Aside from few jewlers who helped me identify few historic spots that's all they know about raw gold. So trial and error has been my reg. I can say my last attempt left slag almost like oil in water looks.


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## jimdoc (Oct 11, 2017)

Keithnhra said:


> I should say the flakes /placer were placer. The only success I had melting a button was 22k. Like I said with ore melting I am having issues! Are you just trying to be a keyboard warrior or do you know how to melt ore? Idk about you but I was just cleaning up bedrock cracks in a rather challenging spot for the last 9 hours. Not really in the mood for someone trying to call me a fool. I asked a question if you can't answer please respect me as we are strangers and that is the proper way men should be!



I didn't call you a fool, I just question some of your wording.

This would get more answers in the "Prospecting, Mining, Ore Concentrates & Geochemical"
as the rest of the forum is mainly about e-scrap and jewelry precious metal recovery.
The people that can help you may only check that section when they are here.

If you ask, a moderator will move this thread there.


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## 4metals (Oct 11, 2017)

Kiethnhra,

It appears you have exhausted all the attempts made by members trying to help you. When it slips into the accusations like you called me a fool, nothing useful ever follows.

I am afraid without more information on your part, which will include photographs of this material, there will be little more that can be done to help you. If you have invested the time to gather this material, to purchase an electric furnace and find out about and acquire Chapman flux, I would think the effort required to post some actual photographs would be in your best interest. Up until now you have posted 10 times on this thread and given little useful information. The assistance you will get here will benefit you in getting to the bottom of this so if you are serious pony up some pictures, otherwise don't hold your breath.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 12, 2017)

Yeah, I'm a keyboard warrior and I have never smelted ore. On the other side I have been on the forum for over ten years and read every thread. I have visited 5-10 active hard rock gold mines (hard to say a definite number, only four were primarily gold, the rest complex ores), two recovery plants and one large smelter.

I've seen gold in pyrite but never in bog iron.
This is gold on pyrite that I have in my collection. http://www.geology.neab.net/pictures/rock338.jpg

I know what information people who could help you probably need to know. By asking it they doesn't have to and could go directly to give good advice.

Apparently it was not appreciated so I won't bother you with any more questions.

Göran


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## cosmetal (Oct 12, 2017)

Keithnhra said:


> I am from a area with massive glacial deposits in the Berkshires. I also have native gold in bedrock. Which many have been looking for since 1870s. Issue now is gold mining in this area is completely new to people. They know nothing. Aside from few jewlers who helped me identify few historic spots that's all they know about raw gold. So trial and error has been my reg. I can say my last attempt left slag almost like oil in water looks.



Keith,

I'm still a noobie here and to gold refining. But, I'm definitely not a noobie to placer mining.

It has been my experience here on GRF that the knowledge is vast and is forthcoming if you treat everyone with respect. I admit that the experienced ones _seem_ to get a little “cranky” now and then, but I saw nothing in anyone’s responses to you that that was disrespectful.

I know what it’s like to spend 9 hours plus in a cold environment and cold water winching boulders and dredging for gold. I also know what the feeling is like when you hit the last foot of hardpan just above bedrock and the gloom of tiredness is lifted by the light reflecting from natural gold flakes and nuggets.

Peace, brother. Try again. It sounds like you are in a unique position and area. Give me and the others some pics and more respectful info. and we’ll all help.  

James


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## 4metals (Oct 12, 2017)

> I admit that the experienced ones seem to get a little “cranky” now and then



That comes from consantly being asked to answer questions without enough background information. Admittedly it wears on me. But when presented thoroughly and thoughtfully you will be helped. We can almost guarantee that!


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## cosmetal (Oct 12, 2017)

4metals said:


> > I admit that the experienced ones seem to get a little “cranky” now and then
> 
> 
> 
> That comes from consantly being asked to answer questions without enough background information. Admittedly it wears on me. But when presented thoroughly and thoughtfully you will be helped. We can almost guarantee that!



4metals,

My remark wasn't directed to you or your comment. Sorry if you thought so.

You have the patience of Job. I would be climbing the walls if I was expected to moderate a forum. I've raised four very successful children already. My patience veneer has been worn thin.

Peace to all on this gifted GRF forum!


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## anachronism (Oct 12, 2017)

Well put Cosmetal, well put.


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## cosmetal (Oct 12, 2017)

cosmetal said:


> 4metals said:
> 
> 
> > > I admit that the experienced ones seem to get a little “cranky” now and then
> ...



"My remark wasn't directed to you or your comment." 

Or to Topher, jimdoc and especially Goran! My youngest son is a physicist and my grandmother came from Sweden. Need I say more?


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## g_axelsson (Oct 12, 2017)

cosmetal said:


> "My remark wasn't directed to you or your comment."
> 
> Or to Topher, jimdoc and especially Goran! My youngest son is a physicist and my grandmother came from Sweden. Need I say more?


'nuff said!  

Never saw your comment as a critique, more like an observation. 

Göran


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## Topher_osAUrus (Oct 12, 2017)

I know I can seem like im cranky, cold, and cruel at times. 99% of the time that is just the words coming off that way.

If someone posts a question, and more information is needed.
A simple question to get more details can easily be construed as a mean response. 

Why is that?
Well, its because the OP knows that information, but the person replying does not. So the person who made the initial inquiry may think that the detail is either "a given" or blatantly obvious. Maybe they think its completely irrelevant and the second question asking for details was posed by an audacious jerk.

What it really comes down to is this. Written words that are to the point lack the tone, inflection, and soul of the author.

If I ever seem that way, I can (almost) promise you its simply from the brevity of the reply.
If by chance its because that 1% of the time...well... My kids probably had me up all night, and I'm sorry in advance!


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## 4metals (Oct 12, 2017)

> My remark wasn't directed to you or your comment. Sorry if you thought so.



No offense taken, my comments were said primarily to help the OP to realize that without enough information the help received may not be useful and often it is a waste of time. 

Now if you want cranky, you should have been here a few years back! :twisted:


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## Keithnhra (Oct 13, 2017)

Ok this is for the gentleman who first responded. We got off on wrong foot. I am very very thankful for any help I can get. Now I literally just wasted 2 days worth of work and it's just placer so literally I'm in dyre need of help. I'm a mechanic so yes I understand the frustration on lack of info. So that being said. This is my first time doing this kind of stuff . Melting furnace model number is mf-1000. Off eBay. Goes to 1150c. Now I literally did like 1/8 th of a load. And left it for hour and 10 min. It's a 1kg crucible btw. Ended up with a silver not gold button now. Other people. An melt same stuff so idk what I'm doing wrong. Using Chapman flux and thinner. 4:1 on the flux assuming it's dirty.


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## Keithnhra (Oct 13, 2017)

James thank you ! Posting pictures later. Dropped phone off ledge camera smashed. Getting new one later


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## 4metals (Oct 13, 2017)

> Melting furnace model number is mf-1000. Off eBay


http://www.ottofrei.com/Electric-Melting-Furnace-MF-1000-1-kg-30-oz-110V-60H

Wish you had found GRF before you bought this. They work, but use graphite crucibles with short lives and when fluxing easy to just ruin it with a little spill. When you hit a substantial payday, and I sincerely hope you do, you need an assay furnace. More versatile and use inexpensive 30 gram assay crucibles. (Don't confuse the 30 gram size designation with the capacity, a 30 gram crucible holds about 1/2 a liter of molten material.)

But for now it is what it is and you can do some fusions in the type furnace you have. 

Where did you find out about Chapman flux?


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## cosmetal (Oct 13, 2017)

Keithnhra said:


> James thank you ! Posting pictures later. Dropped phone off ledge camera smashed. Getting new one later


Glad to see that you decided to try again.

Without pics, you’re going to get a lot of questions. So, don’t get too excited. Ok?

Mine are:
1.)	You said – *“I'm really wasting good gold now. Not just fines flakes of known 22kt.”*
Are you working a placer deposit that has gold in the form of fines, flakes, nuggets or all? If so, how are you mining the gold? High banking, dry washing, crevicing, panning, sluicing or dredging?
2.)	Then later – *“Actually mostly ore. Id post pictures but camera is smashed. I do melt some placer but mostly hard rock gold.”*
Now, I’m confused. Is this a hard rock deposit you are working or a placer deposit? Or do you have both?
3.)	And - *“I should say some ore is bog iron ore.”*
My head is spinning = never heard of “bog” iron ore. But, I’m intrigued. More information, please.
4.)	Then – *“Well I had it assayed and had a success making button. So then had it tested itself. Which also the gold known in my area is from iron ore and is also 22k. Also have Vermont ore at 23kt... very nice stuff. Very pure.”*
Assayed what - placer or hard rock or both?
5.)	And – *“Also I have copper,silver,trace of platinum (b.c glacial) I assume. Ore I had assayed was 3 oz to the ton. Silver 1/2 ,platinum .18, copper 2.”*
Sounds like you’re talking about hard rock ore only. 
6.)	Then –* “I should say the flakes /placer were placer. The only success I had melting a button was 22k.”*
Now, placer? Did you try to smelt gold fines and flakes while still within the black sand concentrate? 
7.)	*“flakes were placer and picker obviously which was tested several times . Button tested obviously after I made it.”*
Which picker? Your button or a nugget?
8.)	*“I am from a area with massive glacial deposits in the Berkshires. I also have native gold in bedrock.”*
You’re lucky. Forget the smelting for now and buy a good metal detector and go nugget shooting in the bedrock. :!: 

Peace . . .  
James


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## g_axelsson (Oct 14, 2017)

Bog ore.

When iron rich fluids ends up in bogs or swamps there can be some concretions made by oxidation. These concretions consists mainly of iron oxides and hydroxides. Most often found in bogs or swamps, hence the name.
Bog ore was the main source of iron in early history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron

That is the reason I wondered why he would expect there is any gold at all in bog ore.

Göran


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## cosmetal (Oct 14, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Bog ore.
> 
> When iron rich fluids ends up in bogs or swamps there can be some concretions made by oxidation. These concretions consists mainly of iron oxides and hydroxides. Most often found in bogs or swamps, hence the name.
> Bog ore was the main source of iron in early history.
> ...



Having been born and mostly raised in the state of Arizona (which is almost all desert), I have never had the pleasure of visiting a bog. Sounds interesting, especially if I could find one of my early ancestors preserved in the goo! :shock:

But, I have seen Wikipedia before. Maybe one of these days I'll stop falling into the noobie hole of self-mortification . . . sigh!


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## Iggy-poo (Oct 15, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Bog ore.
> 
> When iron rich fluids ends up in bogs or swamps there can be some concretions made by oxidation. These concretions consists mainly of iron oxides and hydroxides. Most often found in bogs or swamps, hence the name.
> Bog ore was the main source of iron in early history.
> ...



Here's one site in Maine that was operating into 1890:

http://www.mainerec.com/katahdin.asp?Category=204&PageNum=204

I've gone there many times, since the trout fishing is excellent in nearby creeks. I even caught a nice Salmon while trout fishing.


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## g_axelsson (Oct 15, 2017)

Iggy-poo said:


> g_axelsson said:
> 
> 
> > Bog ore.
> ...



Doesn't sound like bog ore, they are writing about "local iron sulphide ore" so my guess is that they mined pyrite.

... my bad, it seems like it was pyrrhotite, not pyrite they mined.
https://www.mindat.org/loc-46191.html

Göran


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## Eu_citzen (Oct 15, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Bog ore.
> 
> When iron rich fluids ends up in bogs or swamps there can be some concretions made by oxidation. These concretions consists mainly of iron oxides and hydroxides. Most often found in bogs or swamps, hence the name.
> Bog ore was the main source of iron in early history.
> ...




Could he be referring to a gossan, I wonder?


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## Eu_citzen (Oct 15, 2017)

More details are indeed needed.

First off, see if the gold is free milling gold. Pan a bit of finely crushed material.
Perhaps smelting is not required at all!

What ore(s) are you smelting? The flux needs to be adjusted for each ore. 
Keep notes of every smelt, including all weights and if the smelt was successful or not.

Is the slag nice and thin flowing? 

If the precious metal content of the smelted stuff is low, a collector metal might be needed.


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