# New to refining, help with flux



## ben2363 (Aug 2, 2022)

Hi all I'm new to refining. 
I'm currently having issues with my gold cons.
My ore has a lot of galena and pyrites in it.
So I'm thinking it would easier to let my port 1 on my shaker table take all the gold and minerals and do one big smelt.

Is there a basic flex to start with that will work well with galena. I currently dont have any flux so I'm open to any suggestions 

Ben


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## Martijn (Aug 10, 2022)

ben2363 said:


> Hi all I'm new to refining.
> I'm currently having issues with my gold cons.
> My ore has a lot of galena and pyrites in it.
> So I'm thinking it would easier to let my port 1 on my shaker table take all the gold and minerals and do one big smelt.
> ...


Welcome to the forum Ben. 

I find video's of Jason from mount baker very informative. 
Here is a video about smelting galena ore. 


You could try to separate the galena and minerals from the gold a second time on the table and treat the cons seperate. 

Martijn.


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## goldshark (Aug 10, 2022)

I would roast all the sulfides to a dead roast first. Then use a flux that contains ;
6.5 parts NaHCO3
5 partsK2CO3
2.5 parts flour
2.5 parts borax glass
Use at the ratio of 10 parts ore to 30 parts flux, with a covering of just the flux.
Start at a low heat, around 700 C. , then raise to 1080 C. for about 40 minutes, or until all is fluid.
If you don't roast thoroughly add some Iron rods to adsorb the sulfides. Remove and tap Iron prior to pouring..


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## Lino1406 (Aug 11, 2022)

ben2363 said:


> Hi all I'm new to refining.
> I'm currently having issues with my gold cons.
> My ore has a lot of galena and pyrites in it.
> So I'm thinking it would easier to let my port 1 on my shaker table take all the gold and minerals and do one big smelt.
> ...


What is acceptable, incineration firstly


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## goldshark (Aug 12, 2022)

You can use Sodium or Potassium Nitrate to oxidize the sulfides, as well as an excess of PbO, or the addition of some iron, if you do not roast the cons. Many ways to skin a cat. The exact formula/flux recipe cannot be given here, since each ore will vary depending on composition. Trial and error on a small scale is the preferred method ( 1 assay ton ), or an XRF gun to tell the exact composition. Then the math begins to calculate what fluxes are necessary for your particular cons composition. There is no one ingredient only to add, which will flux your melt. It is kind of like baking an expensive cake. Leave out 1 ingredient, and the cake may turn out in an inferior condition. The roasting is usually carried out at 600 - 700 C., until no odors are left. Be careful, as Arsenic and Mercury are very toxic, and pyrite will create Sulfur Dioxide ( acidic). FYI, the term basic flux, refers to a flux containing usually carbonates. Acidic flux refers to the use of silicates. I think you meant to ask if there is a simple flux, which will work for your cons. I cannot say, since I have no knowledge of it's analysis. You may get lucky with just adding some Sodium Hydroxide, but I doubt it. You can try on a small scale, but if you have a large quantity of high grade, farm it out. The best recovery is a complex procedure. Read some assay books on the subject, several times over, before attempting a smelt. I don't mean to sound discouraging, but you will find it necessary to invest in a fair amount of supplies to complete the smelt, from a raw smelt, to final metals in their individual state. I find it extremely interesting, and encourage you in your endeavor. Good luck.


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## ben2363 (Sep 2, 2022)

Thanks heaps everyone.
I just did my first smelt.
100grams or gold cons
300 grams soda
100 silica 
100 borax
20grams lead
Iron rod

Came out ok.
But the mat look very stone looking 
How do i fix this more soda?

Ben


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## goldshark (Sep 3, 2022)

Can you post a picture of the smelt (not the fish)?


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## goldshark (Sep 3, 2022)

Did you roast the material prior to firing?


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## ben2363 (Sep 3, 2022)

I did roast the materials but I probably should of roasted longer.


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## goldshark (Sep 3, 2022)

Also forgot to mention that the ore should be ground to 150 mesh prior to assaying. Overall, not too bad of a job. Nice button separation. Looks like a little fine tweaking of the recipe will give a better result next time. I can't tell if the gray powder is unmelted flux, or crushed slag produced during button separation. You may not have liquified all your fluxes. I didn't see that you added any flour. Flour will generate some additional heat to help raise the internal temperature of the melt. An easy ingredient to obtain.Really good for a first time fire actually.


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## ben2363 (Sep 4, 2022)

goldshark said:


> Also forgot to mention that the ore should be ground to 150 mesh prior to assaying. Overall, not too bad of a job. Nice button separation. Looks like a little fine tweaking of the recipe will give a better result next time. I can't tell if the gray powder is unmelted flux, or crushed slag produced during button separation. You may not have liquified all your fluxes. I didn't see that you added any flour. Flour will generate some additional heat to help raise the internal temperature of the melt. An easy ingredient to obtain.Really good for a first time fire actually.


Flour is that silica??


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## Yggdrasil (Sep 4, 2022)

ben2363 said:


> Flour is that silica??


No what you use to bake breads.  
It adds Carbon to the mix and will burn strongly with what ever oxygen is in the melt.


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## Goldenrod757 (Nov 7, 2022)

goldshark said:


> I would roast all the sulfides to a dead roast first. Then use a flux that contains ;
> 6.5 parts NaHCO3
> 5 partsK2CO3
> 2.5 parts flour
> ...


If it is washed sweeping fines that contain 10k gold and some silver fines along with some sand ...possibly 40 to 60 % metal, would it be adviseable to just use borax or would a more elaborate flux be recomended. Thanks.


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## goldshark (Nov 8, 2022)

On that high a percentage of metal, Borax alone would be adequate to collect the sand in the slag. Use enough to get a good bit of slag. Since you didn't mention the quantities of metal or crucible size, I can't give you an amount to add. For instance, if you had 2+ ozs. in a 1 assay ton ( 30 gram) crucible, I would add about a half inch on top of the metal. Give a couple of good swirls to the metal before pouring, to collect all the non metal particles. Use assay Borax, not the hand soap.


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## goldshark (Nov 8, 2022)

Does anybody have experience adding enough Silver or Copper, then corn flaking slag and all. This would allow you to skip a melt, and go directly to inquarting. If you then wish to refine.


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## orvi (Nov 8, 2022)

goldshark said:


> Does anybody have experience adding enough Silver or Copper, then corn flaking slag and all. This would allow you to skip a melt, and go directly to inquarting. If you then wish to refine.


Sounds nice as idea, but I am afraid that with certain slag compositions you can get grains of mixed slag/metal beads, that sticks one to each other and would be hard to separate by conventional paning or other gravity method. Maybe borax slags or other more acidic ones can give sharp separation, as they tend to crack upon cooling - more than basic slags (personal observation). Just my thoughts, but I like the idea pretty much  

Otherwise, slight crushing and repeated panning should do the job in my opinion. If you have small jaw crusher, this could be way to go even for bigger lots


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## Abdoulapapatte (Dec 5, 2022)

Try like this 
1) alloys + lead metal quartation 
2) when pb is liquide ,add naoh 
3) add borax , 
4) add Saltpetre.
5) melt ( first time) 
6 look result.
7) take all scorie , melt again 
8) add borax 
Ps: Phase 7 and 8 actually simply allows you to see if you have had any losses and thus reconnect your metal and be able to recover the whole.
You can also use flour with a little silver chloride which will actually improve the fondant and metal collector. if you have small amounts of sodium chlorur lying around as it happens with me, the flour will reduce it to metal, when it sinks and mixes it will recover the other metals, it has the same role as the lead. after that, you attack your alloy directly, nitric then, aqua regia + (10 ml h2so4 to precipitate lead if still present) or you can chase the pellets with a heater and finish the cuppelation. the role of soda is very important, it is she who will prevent the metal from dispersing into small metallic notaux, it allows a better mixture, many people neglect it, it is very unfortunate.

Bye 
Vincent


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## Southfork (Dec 5, 2022)

New guy trying to dial in small sample smelting with cupels. Basically, just covering my concentrates with borax the concentrates are run on a ribbed sluice after chain mill. My best results are after about two hours in the furnace. Sometimes I need to melt 2 times or more to get rid of black or grey coating on button by adding a little more borax. The ore samples are off different mine dumps, but the buttons have been turning out ok I need a recipe for flux, I guess all the black comes off after soaking in whink for several days. Sorry should have started my own post


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 6, 2022)

Southfork said:


> New guy trying to dial in small sample smelting with cupels. Basically, just covering my concentrates with borax the concentrates are run on a ribbed sluice after chain mill. My best results are after about two hours in the furnace. Sometimes I need to melt 2 times or more to get rid of black or grey coating on button by adding a little more borax. The ore samples are off different mine dumps, but the buttons have been turning out ok I need a recipe for flux, I guess all the black comes off after soaking in *whink* for several days. Sorry should have started my own post


Welcome to us.
What is whink?
Without knowing what is there it is hard do give advice.
There is much information regarding fluxes in here, it may be hard to find though, but try a search for flux or fluxes.

You will probably not get a refined result unless you manager to oxidize the base metals away.
It might be better to do a wet refining


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 6, 2022)

Abdoulapapatte said:


> Try like this
> 1) alloys + lead metal quartation
> 2) when pb is liquide ,add naoh
> 3) add borax ,
> ...


What is this sodium chlorur?
I have marked it in bold in the quote.


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## Southfork (Dec 6, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Welcome to us.
> What is whink?
> Without knowing what is there it is hard do give advice.
> There is much information regarding fluxes in here, it may be hard to find though, but try a search for flux or fluxes.
> ...


Whink is a cleaning product available off the shelf in the USA weak acids will slowly dissolve quartz.


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 6, 2022)

Southfork said:


> Whink is a cleaning product available off the shelf in the USA weak acids will slowly dissolve quartz.


Hmm. What does it contain?


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## Southfork (Dec 6, 2022)

Yggdrasil said:


> Hmm. What does it contain?


*Whink* Rust Stain Remover Ingredients. Whink Rust Stain Remover contains: Deionized Water q.s. 100% Hydrofluoric Acid 1-3% Ethylenediaminetetraacetic Acid (EDTA) 0-1%, Trisodium Salt 100-200 ppm, Calcium Chloride 100-700 ppm, sodium Fluosilicate Pentahydrate 100-500 ppm Iron (II) Sulfate Heptahydrate 80-160 ppm. The Hydrofluoric Acid is what attacks the quartz I believe we use it on specimen pieces of gold ore


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## Yggdrasil (Dec 7, 2022)

Southfork said:


> *Whink* Rust Stain Remover Ingredients. Whink Rust Stain Remover contains: Deionized Water q.s. 100% Hydrofluoric Acid 1-3% Ethylenediaminetetraacetic Acid (EDTA) 0-1%, Trisodium Salt 100-200 ppm, Calcium Chloride 100-700 ppm, sodium Fluosilicate Pentahydrate 100-500 ppm Iron (II) Sulfate Heptahydrate 80-160 ppm. The Hydrofluoric Acid is what attacks the quartz I believe we use it on specimen pieces of gold ore


Ok thanks. 
We used something similar to remove the welding oxidation from stainless steel.
Nasty stuff.


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## Abdoulapapatte (Dec 7, 2022)

Yes sorry the messages are translated I meant silver chloride and not sodium chloride On the other hand, sodium chloride is very useful and can be used as a flux. experience it yourself. take a salted alloy or a salted ingot filled with borax, not very homogeneous, something that you have to remelt. heat it up in your propane forge or induction furnace. you can put in little borax with the ingot, it allows to drop the melting point of the metal. when your metal and liquid add a little borax, fished out the slag, to grow a little. now add nacl table salt, after adding the borax 1) borax / 2) NaCl in precisely that order. you will see after melting and passage in clear water that the ingot shines and that no trace of flux remains present. no bath with sulfuric acid necessary


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## goldshark (Dec 29, 2022)

ben2363 said:


> Hi all I'm new to refining.
> I'm currently having issues with my gold cons.
> My ore has a lot of galena and pyrites in it.
> So I'm thinking it would easier to let my port 1 on my shaker table take all the gold and minerals and do one big smelt.
> ...


Hi Ben, just wondering if you got your fluxes dialed in. In retrospect after reading all the posts again, we should have asked what type of rock (acid or basic), you were milling, and a rough percentage of sulfides in the concentrates. We could then help fine tune your fluxes, if you haven't done so by now.


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