# Bought Niton Gun, Not impressed!



## michael1311 (Mar 16, 2013)

Bought the Niton XL2 recently and I am not impressed with it at all. First of all I can guarantee that it is testing too high compared to my $5000 Chinese desktop machine and is ruining my melting results. Especially in the lower band...I am still waiting for a 9k piece to show up 37.5% most 9k jewellery will show up 38.5 - 40%, to make matters worse the gun then displays a 10k when clearly we all know that more than likely if we were to melt this piece of jewellery its probably more likely to be 8.8k! (And if the customer see's the 10 number they demand to be paid 10k for a 9k piece of jewellery!) I also have 14k showing as 59% - 60%. 

It just makes me wonder how many under carat jewellery pieces are sneaking past me......I've included a comparison table below between fire assay the niton and my chinese machine.

FIRE ASSAY... NITON....Innaccuracy...Chinese....Inaccuracy
39.06%........ 39.66%....+0.60%..........38.72%....-0.34%
52.87%........ 53.20%....+0.33%..........52.50%....-0.37%
46.43%........ 46.98%....+0.55%..........45.96%....-0.47%
56.30%........ 56.66%....+0.36%..........56.00%....-0.30%
37.80%.........38.50%....+0.70%..........37.40%....-0.40%
36.80%.........37.56%....+0.76%..........36.40%....-0.40%
91.70%.........92.06%....+0.36%..........91.50%....-0.20%
90.00%.........89.70%....-0.30%..........89.95%...	.-0.05%
98.60%........ 99.10%....+0.50%..........99.80%....+1.20%

The results speak for themselves, I've contacted the people who I bought the Niton from, they just feed me garbage about German world calibration balblablabla and don't seem to cooperative about calibrating the gun correctly Nor will give me the password to my own machinery to change it myself.

My chinese counterparts are more than happy to calibrate the machine to suit my needs. Anyone here work with Niton like to comment on why they sell a device that tests too high? Why can't I have the password?????

Remember these results are flat, sanded samples, they are even worse on jewellery pieces!


----------



## Woodworker1997 (Mar 16, 2013)

I cannot comment on the machines. I have no experience with them. 
As far as them not giving you the password, if anyone was able to calibrate their own machine they could easily cheat people

selling their gold. It would be like gas stations being able to charge $XXX.XX for a gallon of gas when they have the pump set to 3/4 gallon. 

I'm not saying you would do this but, just look at "The best of ebay" . Scum bags are everywhere.

Derek.


----------



## michael1311 (Mar 16, 2013)

I disagree with your comment woodwork. Going by your comments It looks to me that Niton is "cheating" the buyer by making them purchase gold that doesn't exist? Also if i buy a piece of equipment i believe its my right to change it to how i see fit, if i decide to "cheat" people, then I am sure the market will take care of me naturally with the loss of customers. Still if you have no experience with these machines or haven't being losing money since investing alot of money into one I do not know why you even bothered to comment?


----------



## Woodworker1997 (Mar 16, 2013)

Michael,

Sorry if you were offended. I was making a comparison based on my experience getting "taken" by someone who had calibrated scales. They had "calibrated" their scales in their benefit. I lost money buying silver. I will forever question equipment calibrated by people I do not know. 

NIST calibrated and sealed. This I trust. 

Again, i'm not meaning to offend and I only commented on the calibration issue not the machine it's self.

Take care and good luck.

Derek


----------



## Dan Dement (Mar 16, 2013)

Michael,

I am on my fourth XRF machine and calibrate it to known standards that I have had double and triple checked. I also use an Alpha Mirage SG scale that gives you a second opionion on larger solid mass bars that is usually 1-1.5% conservative. Not being able to fine tune your machine is not answer. I havwe had the opporunity to compare my tabletop to a Highbuck Niton Gun and the tabletop machines are more accurate. A lot has to do with the percentage of power capacity that it takes to operate the machine. The Gun run at 90% of capacity and the Tabletop's run under 10%. I really don't think their is an answer that does not come from Niton.

Dan


----------



## michael1311 (Mar 16, 2013)

Hi Dan,

Niton allowed you to calibrate it against your standards? I still think displaying 9k as 39% consistently is unsatisfactory for such a big brand.


----------



## Dan Dement (Mar 17, 2013)

Michael,

I have used Quickshot for years and we are always updating the info base. As we find new combinations or additional standards, we have new standards made and add them to our database. I had one of our knowledgable Members come down with a Niton gun on another project and we compared the Niton gun against my Desktop unit and known standards. Must say that my desktop was more accurate on Precious Metals which is what my machine is set up to read. In XRF machines, their are $20,000 machines, $40,000 machines, $100,000 machines, and some crazy $250,000 machines. In general, guns are running near 100% of capacity because of the power source of a battery and mine has an SSD reader is running at less than 10%. In my experience, it's an educated guess and that's why I like to also use an SG scale. If they are close to each other, I am confident that my numbers are correct. Usually, my SG scale is about 1-1.5% conservative. However, it is not an easy button but a tool. You have to understand the limitations. My machine does not see elements under element 20 on the chart. I had a friend send me hundreds of grams of incinerated bench sweeps. I ran an XRF and got 66% reading on the package thru the plastic bag. The reading was correct but the weight was way off when it comes back from the refiner. Understand that most Jewelers wheels is Alumina Oxide (SP) which is mostly Sapphire which is silica which is Aluminum and the XRF comes not see it. Big difference in weight and a BIG learning experience! Cashing out is rather important to me.

Dan


----------



## nickvc (Mar 18, 2013)

The problem with xrf guns is that they want to give a 100% reading so they fill the missing % in with it's own metals and they can be very wrong, I have run gold plated material on them and had Pd and Pt as part of the reading while been fully aware they couldn't be there and powders as Dan commented on are a nightmare to get decent readings that actually make sense, I believe xrf has a place in testing and giving good indications of what metals are and possible , especially if they are calibrated correctly, but I'd rather stick to fire assays on more complicated samples and when I want to be sure of whats there such as buying or selling, I guess I'm just old fashioned.


----------



## michael1311 (Mar 19, 2013)

Hi nick,

I understand the limitations of XRF technology unfortunately I can't tell every customer walking through the door with $1000 i need to melt and fire assay their gold. As much as I would love to do it!

What annoys me the most with the Niton in the lower band it can be reading 3 - 4% too high (That is more than the margin I run) and I doubt it finds ANY jewellery items that are under carat. All the 35% items will be bought as 9k off the Niton. I know my cheap chinese machine reads 9k correct and finds me all the under carats jewellery items across the entire range, thus when I melt and assay, I get a really good result.


----------



## Dan Dement (Mar 19, 2013)

Michael,

I sure you have complained to Niton but what have they said? We have a member here who presents Niton, Have you tried contacting him? When I got problems with equipment, I complain load & clear to the manufacturer. I buy lots of equipment and get great support from my Vendors. I return that support by advocating for them and defending them when they deserve to be defended. I also jump their case when they don't take care of people when they should. Not everything always works the way it should or how we expect, the true test of a Vendor is when it does not work correctly, What do they do about it! I think it is time to kick up yourcomplaining and let's track down the GRF member and let's get the machine working the way it should. Nothing like complaining to a big group of potential customers to put the Vendor to a test. 

Dan


----------



## michael1311 (Mar 25, 2013)

haha I agree Dan. Originally when I complained to the people who sold me the Niton they sent me Email's saying how its a 'world calibration' along with performance tests out of Germany balblablabla, but to me its all a load of crap. My $5000 Chinese machine test's better, and at the moment the Niton is just collecting dust. I have customers who come in with melted bars, running a 2.5% margin I can't afford to zap the bar and be 0.7% over. Or even worse, if its in the 37% range up to 3% over!! Its just ridiculous. Whos the Niton guy here? Where is he?


----------



## Dan Dement (Mar 25, 2013)

Michael,

I believe GSF Goldbiter was involved with Niton from a previous discussion about XRF's. You might search some of my ld posts as there was some heated discussions about XRF's. Which model Niton do you have? Does it have a "full metal package" or is just set up for gold? The guns do have a limited life span because of there high use of power. If it has a Full Metal package, lot of guys in the scrap business might be interested. Don't like it, get rid of it! I am on my 4th XRF and have sold all my previous three to friends. However, the guns can be great in some business's as your start getting to the Inconel's and stainless steels, the accuracy we demand becomes less important. Happy to try to help you if I can. No, I AM NOT a equipment dealer. . just a self confesed gadget junkie who has a few connections trying to help you. Send a PM to Goldbiter and let's see what type service Niton really has. If you had a Quickshot, I would be telling you the same thing. Use the power of GRF to make the companies back up their promised performance!!!!!

Dan


----------

