# How to save money on Nitric acid when scrapping silver!!



## nōnāgintā trēs (Dec 14, 2012)

Before I go any further, I have to give credit to GoldenChild because I got the idea originally from him! I used to scrap silver knives, forks, and spoons, ect,. with straight nitric acid. I am lucky enough I only pay 5€ per liter (sigma ald.) so it was never a big deal for me. Then I saw one of GoldenChilds videos and decided to try cutting my nitric with water. Here's how...

This is based on 10-15 knives and forks, in a 2 liter pyrex dish.
Put your scrap silver in a pyrex dish or what ever you use and add enough water to almost cover all the silver. Make sure the dish is not too full or you won't have enough room to add the acid. Next add about 100-200ml nitric acid (depending on your dish size). Let is work for an hour or so then go back and add a little more acid if need be. The reason for this is 1. To save money. and 2. Because too much acid will chew through the copper under the silver diminishing from silver quality. I find that for every 1 liter of water I get away with 250ml or so of acid. By the time the silver is dissolved the copper is too much for the acid and it dies. The copper in the knives and forks then drops the silver from the dark blue solution so you don't need to add copper. 

(Warning) This is only for those who don't mind a little copper contamination in their silver. The result will be 80-92% pure with trace amounts of copper.


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 14, 2012)

Can I ask for moderator help please?
I am new here but have been reading everything and anything, especially the new posts section. Having read this "tutorial", I would be inclinded to think that cheap silver plated flatware is very easy to get alot of silver with no effort. 
nōnāgintā trēs again is misinforming us newbs in a harmful way. 
Most importantly, how to deal with all the safety issues using the deadly chemicals. Like making sure you pour acids in water, not water into acids. Explosive results can happen in an instant causing a lifetime of pain and suffering.
This is not the first post from nōnāgintā trēs and all I have seen have not been complete or completely wrong. I'm asking you nōnāgintā trēs to please do as all of us and read, read, read. 

I for one profess to proclain to have no knowledge on anything. That keeps me learning every day. Hopefully the right way the first time so as to not regret it for the rest of my meager existance.
BS
PS. If I am totally wrong and nōnāgintā trēs knows exactly how to do things and shares with us all the right stuff, then I truly am sorry for my mistake. I hope admitting mistakes is easier then watching a lifetime of pain and suffering caused for misinformation


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## Geo (Dec 14, 2012)

using nitric acid to try and strip silver from silver plate will not work. the reason it will not work is due to the electromotive series of metals. as the silver is dissolved by the nitric acid, is is being cemented out on the copper base metal. to reclaim silver in this manner, you would have to dissolve the entire piece of metal. thats alot of base metal for the little amount of silver there.even diluting the nitric will not help as the reaction is still the same, only slower.


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## nōnāgintā trēs (Dec 14, 2012)

WHAT????????????????? 

Geo, I have been scrapping silver with HNO3 for over a year now. Keyboards and scrap!!! I only wish I had a camera, I have a blue container full right now!!!!


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## nōnāgintā trēs (Dec 14, 2012)

Pantherlikher said:


> Can I ask for moderator help please?
> I am new here but have been reading everything and anything, especially the new posts section. Having read this "tutorial", I would be inclinded to think that cheap silver plated flatware is very easy to get alot of silver with no effort.
> nōnāgintā trēs again is misinforming us newbs in a harmful way.
> Most importantly, how to deal with all the safety issues using the deadly chemicals. Like making sure you pour acids in water, not water into acids. Explosive results can happen in an instant causing a lifetime of pain and suffering.
> ...



I like the first part of your name but I say no more. I said water first then acid. HNO3 does dissolve silver I don't know why Geo said what he said???? Everything I post I have done at least 1 time including this post. Chemicals come with fact sheets and warnings. I assume most of us here have some basic chem knowledge. And if I make a mistake like in a previous post I will go back and correct it with an apology.

93


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## Geo (Dec 14, 2012)

mylars has no base metal. silver plate is normally plated on a copper base metal. how can you have silver in solution when copper is the metal used to cement silver from solution? you may be quick in removing the solution to keep all the silver from cementing out but you can not be getting it all. seems like a waste of chemicals.


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## nōnāgintā trēs (Dec 14, 2012)

Geo said:


> mylars has no base metal. silver plate is normally plated on a copper base metal. how can you have silver in solution when copper is the metal used to cement silver from solution? you may be quick in removing the solution to keep all the silver from cementing out but you can not be getting it all. seems like a waste of chemicals.



Geo,

I'm sorry... what can I say here??? If I have a silver plated spoon, and the silver is copper underneath, and I put it in nitric or even a 50 50 mix nitric and water, the silver dissolves, so does some of the copper but not much. The acid eventually stops fizzling and I ad more water. I leave it for 24 hours and the copper will cement the silver back out of the solution. Now, I do 15-20 pieces at a time in a 2 liter pyrex, and like I said I only wish I had a camera so I could send you a pick of the solution and the silver I have from previous scrapings.


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 14, 2012)

nōnāgintā trēs I sincerely apologise for thinking this site is only for people with a chemical background. Not for what I have said to all of the posts from you that I have read. Alot lately it seems.

GEO said what he said because it is a waste of time, effort, and chemicals. And...you can not hope to "time it right" to get all silver disolved and remove the Copper silverware before the copper drops silver. There simply is not enough silver to begin with as stated repeatidly on posts here in the forum under Silver plated. Even in the hopes to accumulate the plating with alittle copper. I had hundreds of plated pieces in the hopes of getting silver. Only to have my hopes dashed upon the rocks of reality.
REALITY being the key word when writing anything informative. Especially when dealing with such dangerous chemicals.
Go back to everything you have posted to date, which you have just joined the forum and made alot of "how tos", and see what others have replied and why.

GEO, I am very sorry you seem to be attacked alot by your replies. The only reason I can see for this would be because you state facts and proper procedures which even I fully understand. This in the past seems to step on toes of the egotistical causing the natural self defense responces you seem to stirr up. Never stop correcting what you know with proof to be wrong. And if wrong, never fail to look, think, and admit being wrong and seak right. I for 1 am always right, but always wrong. 

nōnāgintā trēs, please do some research on the forum to verify before desiding you have some "Witches brew" to make an informative instructional post. Be sure of your audience and make adjustments as neccesary as not all of us have chemical backgrounds, Like Fleabay divers who buy into a fast money instructional that ends them here stating someone better help them make the fast answer solution to get them quick money.
BS.


Still have my 2 cents as I have not had to use them to save me from the Witches brew...


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## nōnāgintā trēs (Dec 14, 2012)

Okay pan,

I add water and nitric acid to silverware and wait 24 hrs to get a nice pile of silver cement! REAL WASTE OF TIME!!!!
ahahaha


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 14, 2012)

I actually find this to be an interesting idea. If one added a stoichiometric amount of acid sufficient to dissolve only the amount of silver plating, it might actually work. Because different parts of the piece might dissolve through the plating faster than others (tines will be worn thinner from use), you'd probably have to have some excess to dissolve some copper or risk leaving part of the silver still on the flatwear.

Under ideal conditions, if the piece stripped evenly across its entire surface, and only enough nitric had been used to digest the silver, the reaction would stop as the copper base metal was reached. Interesting.

I do see potential problems. Copper based pieces are one thing. Other base metals could complicate the process. When digesting multiple pieces at the same time, you'll likely have some pieces that are stripped faster than others. Pieces in the middle might strip slower than those on the outside which are exposed to greater circulation of the acidic solution.

Still, it is an interesting idea. I may have to play with this.

Thanks for the idea nōnāgintā trēs. We're all here to learn from each other. There are many ways to skin a cat. Some are better than others. The methods that are favored on the forum are recommended because they are proven to work, and are reliable even for those trying their hand at refining for the first time. Other methods may work as well, but sometimes they depend on the skill of the refiner. GSP, for example, has enough experience to be able to remove small quantities of impurities from his gold during the melt. That method probably wouldn't work for most of us. But following Harold's washing procedures assures anyone of a very fine product.

Dave


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## MysticColby (Dec 14, 2012)

I, too, have considered this method as a possible way to recover from silver plate.
I don't think this post is the reason for the hostility I see here, but I do encourage less aggressive accusations.

My thoughts on this subject:
- dip silver-plated fork into dilute nitric
- silver dissolves
- when copper is exposed, copper starts to dissolve and silver is cemented out
- by agitating the fork, cemented silver is dislodged and more silver cements out (cemented silver does tend to fall off copper especially if agitate and from dilute silver nitrate)
- when silver plate is gone, remove fork and agitate in a beaker of water to dislodge cemented silver
- should get maybe 70/30 copper nitrate / silver nitrate and a beaker with little cemented silver

At the least, I think that this is not cost-effective due to how much copper is dissolved.
And everywhere on this forum this idea has been suggested someone who has tried it says it does not work, that the cemented silver sticks to the copper.

nōnāgintā trēs, a blue solution means it contains copper, which is what is expected with a copper base metal. The real test comes when you later reclaim any silver from that solution, which I have not seen you say you do


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## Geo (Dec 14, 2012)

the reason why i have commented on this is because when i first started on the forum, i ask the same questions about the same thing. i was summarily told that it was bad practice and there are much easier ways to do it. there are easier ways to reclaim silver from silver plate. is it worth it? depends on the value you place on your time and the cost of chemicals. there are almost always more than one way to process a certain material.is any one process better than another? of coarse there is. do you try every process to find out which one is better or do you ask someone (or in this case,alot of someones) which is better. theres a solution that will remove the silver and leave the base metal intact. its been discussed several times. i found it at a site that deals with re-plating musical instruments with silver. they outline the process to strip the old silver without damaging the brass instrument. the spent solution is considered waste to them. its this waste that we can reclaim the silver. theres also a reverse electroplating system to remove silver outlined on the forum with instructions and pictures. all of this can be found by hunting or asking nicely. 

when i tried this myself, it didnt work so well. i have a hard time accessing nitric acid so the little that i have or get is used for something a little more important than a process that (Harold no less, told me to stop wasting time and chemicals) produced little return for all my hard work.


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 14, 2012)

nōnāgintā trēs said:


> Before I go any further, I have to give credit to GoldenChild because I got the idea originally from him! I used to scrap silver knives, forks, and spoons, ect,. with straight nitric acid. I am lucky enough I only pay 5€ per liter (sigma ald.) so it was never a big deal for me. Then I saw one of GoldenChilds videos and decided to try cutting my nitric with water. Here's how...
> 
> This is based on 10-15 knives and forks, in a 2 liter pyrex dish.
> Put your scrap silver in a pyrex dish or what ever you use and add enough water to almost cover all the silver. Make sure the dish is not too full or you won't have enough room to add the acid. Next add about 100-200ml nitric acid (depending on your dish size). Let is work for an hour or so then go back and add a little more acid if need be. The reason for this is 1. To save money. and 2. Because too much acid will chew through the copper under the silver diminishing from silver quality. I find that for every 1 liter of water I get away with 250ml or so of acid. By the time the silver is dissolved the copper is too much for the acid and it dies. The copper in the knives and forks then drops the silver from the dark blue solution so you don't need to add copper.
> ...



I had to read that several times to get the hang of what you were doing. As I understand it, you are dissolving the silver and, at the same time, you're cementing the silver with the base metals of the flatware. It's an interesting concept. The dark blue color is, of course, from dissolving some of the copper. Once you cut through the silver in some areas, I would imagine the copper would start dissolving at those areas. It's a balancing act with the nitric but I can see it working.

Do you have any numbers comparing the amount of nitric used vs the amount of silver recovered from a single batch? To me, that's the most important question I could ask. With that, the amount of copper that dissolves could be calculated. If too much dissolves, the nitric cost might be too high for many members.

If you used a plastic bucket, you could raise it by the handle and twist it several times after each nitric addition to blend in the nitric and make the solution homogenous. I would think that would dissolve more evenly.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 14, 2012)

nōnāgintā trēs said:


> Before I go any further, I have to give credit to GoldenChild because I got the idea originally from him! I used to scrap silver knives, forks, and spoons, ect,. with straight nitric acid. I am lucky enough I only pay 5€ per liter (sigma ald.) so it was never a big deal for me. Then I saw one of GoldenChilds videos and decided to try cutting my nitric with water. Here's how...
> 
> This is based on 10-15 knives and forks, in a 2 liter pyrex dish.
> Put your scrap silver in a pyrex dish or what ever you use and add enough water to almost cover all the silver. Make sure the dish is not too full or you won't have enough room to add the acid. Next add about 100-200ml nitric acid (depending on your dish size). Let is work for an hour or so then go back and add a little more acid if need be. The reason for this is 1. To save money. and 2. Because too much acid will chew through the copper under the silver diminishing from silver quality. I find that for every 1 liter of water I get away with 250ml or so of acid. By the time the silver is dissolved the copper is too much for the acid and it dies. The copper in the knives and forks then drops the silver from the dark blue solution so you don't need to add copper.
> ...



There is a much better, albeit a much more dangerous way, to strip silver plating from copper base.

It sounds like though, in your later posts on this thread, that you are saying you have been using 70% nitric acid for the last year to dissolve silver plate? Is that what you are claiming?

See, I am having a difficult time believing that because of the way silver/copper interacts with non-diluted nitric acid. Please, could you describe the results of dissolving silver in nitric acid that has not been diluted with water? I would really like to know how you were able to do it, and what your results were, because frankly, I don't believe you at all, not even a little bit. Sorry for calling you out in public forum, but you are the one who posted this, not me. 

Why not try being honest and gain respect in that way instead of drive by posting a lot of garbage that may or may not contain kernels of truth. It's xmas time, So a little advice Rudolph, with your red nose. If you want to play in all the Reindeer games, instead of drive by posting you might want to leave the forum, come back in a few weeks maybe during xmas when everyone is full of holiday cheer. Create a new name and then conduct yourself in a manor that equates to professionalism. So long as you are attempting to impress people on this forum, by talking about things you truly seem to have no experience doing, and misleading people in the process, you are not going to have time to learn anything you should be learning. You will never gain the respect from members of this forum if you are not actually doing the work, and relating information that has real world value.

I defended you in one post because I truly believe everyone should be given room to grow and shouldn't be labelled in derogatory terms, so long as that person is striving to become more knowledgeable and experienced. But imagine how incensed someone might be, that spent the last several years learning about recovering/refining precious metals, then you come along claiming to have been doing this for a length of time, or equating yourself to them yet relating incorrect information! It's insulting. 

Seriously, just put the breaks on and stop this nonsense.

Scott


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## NobleMetalWorks (Dec 14, 2012)

I was just thinking about this...

Do you not realize that no matter how much you dilute nitric acid, or not, it's going to take the exact same amount of nitric acid to dissolve the silver? It takes, about, 2 grams of HNO3 to dissolve 1 gram of silver. No matter how much water you add to your solution, it is always going to take that much nitric to dissolve that much silver. So you are not saving any money on the nitric acid.

LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN

Your post is incorrect and misleading. The laws of chemistry and physics do not cease to exist just because you add water. It takes as much as it takes, period, no exceptions, no magical water properties.

Scott


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## Platdigger (Dec 14, 2012)

True, but you still need enough liquid to cover the wares. This way you can use less nitric and still cover, or submerge, (if you will). Sounds like it could work to me.


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## FrugalRefiner (Dec 14, 2012)

goldsilverpro said:


> I had to read that several times to get the hang of what you were doing. As I understand it, you are dissolving the silver and, at the same time, you're cementing the silver with the base metals of the flatware. It's an interesting concept. The dark blue color is, of course, from dissolving some of the copper. Once you cut through the silver in some areas, I would imagine the copper would start dissolving at those areas. It's a balancing act with the nitric but I can see it working.
> 
> Do you have any numbers comparing the amount of nitric used vs the amount of silver recovered from a single batch? To me, that's the most important question I could ask. With that, the amount of copper that dissolves could be calculated. If too much dissolves, the nitric cost might be too high for many members.
> 
> If you used a plastic bucket, you could raise it by the handle and twist it several times after each nitric addition to blend in the nitric and make the solution homogenous. I would think that would dissolve more evenly.



Definitely a balancing act. And you'd have to resign yourself to less than complete recovery vs. the expense of dissolving a lot of excess base metal to get the last few percent of silver.

Yield vs. nitric cost is key. But if you had enough material to buy your nitric by the keg...

Homogenous solution and I might try to keep materials similar as well - newer less worn stuff separate from older well worn stuff to try to hit the balance point.

Interesting idea.

GSP, do you have any thoughts on what other base metals might do in such a solution? I don't see a lot of silver plate on copper. Most is on various white metals. I'm guessing zinc allows would be more reactive and so more difficult to hit the sweet spot?

Thanks,
Dave


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## goldsilverpro (Dec 15, 2012)

A decent quality silver plated fork has about 0.5-2.0 grams of silver on it. For 15 forks, it would take about 9-36 ml of nitric to dissolve just the silver (7.5-30g). If he used 250 ml of nitric, as he intimated, the other 214-241 ml was used to dissolve about 50-60 grams, or so, of copper based nickel silver (about 60Cu/20Ni/20Zn - contains no silver), the white copper alloy commonly used as the base metal for silver plated flatware. 

Since copper is very close to silver on the electromotive series (right above it on most of the incomplete series you find - only .28v difference), these numbers don't seem out of the realm of possibility to me. Being higher, the copper has a tendency to dissolve first. However, in my experience, it is possible in some cases to alter the parameters and, therefore, somewhat alter these tendencies. He claims to have done this, at least enough to dissolve the silver (or, most of it), by using a very weak nitric solution.

Overall, if I interpreted his numbers correctly, it would take from about 8 to 32ml of nitric to get a gram of silver. If nitric cost $50/gallon, it would cost $3.25 - $13 in nitric to get an oz of silver in this manner. Interesting, but probably not feasible for most on the forum, unless they're buying nitric by the drum.


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