# 16 grams precipitant, reverse platting cell



## 61 silverman (Oct 23, 2007)

hello everybody, so far I have de-plated (using sulpheric acid/glycerin cell) about 2 lbs. of a combination of material jewelry-sm.electrical parts and cps, i have recovered 16 grams of black precipitant. I am ready too melt this ( in small amounts) in a 6A size cupel, here is my question? granted that I prepare my cupel properly,( Thanks too steves video on the melting process.) Should I expect too get 16 grams of gold as a return from the melts ??? 



Thank's Mark[/img]


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## lazersteve (Oct 23, 2007)

Mark,

Take my advice and redissolve the black powder using a small amount of AR or HCl-Cl, you'll be glad you did. 

When you get to the melting stage, use a melting dish, not a cupel.

My early videos of the cell melting process work, but won't produce the purity you will get if you redissolve the powder. 

I doubt you'll get the full 16 grams back. That sounds like a lot of powder for 2 pounds of scrap. Is the powder dry? I would only have expected 2-4 grams of gold from a batch that size.

Steve


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## 61 silverman (Oct 23, 2007)

Steve , I just tried too figure out exactly what all i had "worked over" there was about 2lbs of the plated jewelry type stuff and about 1 1/2 lbs. of cpu's 95% + visable gold removed from all items, It is all dried, I tried too add a picture from my camera, first time this method, I got a message on the screen that the size was wrong, I'll have too work on it..Another question I have is on HCI and HCL.. HCI commonly known as muratic acid, correct..Is this just a miss spelling on the abbr. (HCL)..Are they meaning HCI,??
Also while I have your attention, I don't think I have seen anywhere warning those un-familiar with molten metals, the dangers of any moisture coming in contact with said molten material, this is as you probably know is a violent reaction.!! :idea: :wink:these would be mainly the ingot molds. MARK


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## 61 silverman (Oct 23, 2007)

STEVE the melting dish that you mention, I suppose would be like the clay one that you use in your video,?

I have a ceramic shop in my front yard so too speak, actually it is my mother's home buisness, She has been teaching for 40+ years. I was wondering why I couldn't make my own melting dishes, I have numerace different shaped bowls -cups -saucers- sm. too large. fired at the correct temperature should temper the ceramic and with careful heating in the prep. stages avoiding cracking, and there are also porcelan melting dishes that i could also make.. WHAT DO YA THINK ???

P.S. I live next door!!!


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## lazersteve (Oct 23, 2007)

Mark,

The HCI is a common typo for HCl (that's a little 'L' not an 'i ' like some guys think).

The wet mold problem has been addressed in several locations scattered around the forum, but safety matters can always use repeating.

By the way, I never had the chance to compliment you on the awesome Mickey Mouse, I was in Orlando at Disney World when you posted that thread :lol: . Great Job!!

Steve


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## lazersteve (Oct 23, 2007)

Mark,

I've never tried the standard ceramic materials for melting, but I would be very leery of putting any gold in one until it was put thru the wringer with a torch before trusting it to gold. The last thing you want is to lose your gold to a broken dish. Maybe some other members can help you out on the ceramics compositions. I suspect some materials may even absorb the gold into the structure of the dish.

Steve


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## 61 silverman (Oct 23, 2007)

STEVE: thank you for the compliment, that was a very fun project,
I think here in the near furure I am going to take my first strugle'd attempt at the full process through melting. A full 1/3 gram. Take a desirable dish , prep it and see how it does through the full borax stage, if it holds together than at that point add my small and I mean small b'b's too form into one, We'll see what happens,ceramic is clay mostly and is very tight structured, I can't convince myself it won't work , so yes I'll try soon. 

MARK


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## Anonymous (Jan 9, 2008)

If you are going to try to make one (homemade crucible) you will need a plaster of paris mold to make it with, make the clay runny and pure it into/onto the mold try to move it around to get and even thickness, the plaster absorbs the water drawing the clay in at a greater density (no air pockets) remove your new crucible from the mold when hardened but not stuck to the mold. It will take you a few trys to get the hang of it.

dry for a couple of days, then oven dry at 150 then 250 then fire and you should make it.

If you add graphite powder you can get higher temps and more resistance to thermal shock.

Disclaimer, I am not there so be carefull, this is just the basics and will avoid your making the #1 mistake of forming the clay by hand and having included air pockets.

Also, inverted small styrofoam cup makes a good mold to cast your plaster of paris around to form you crucible mold. The plastic mold is a permanent mold and should be made in 2 halves (unless very shallow)
and can be reused for quite some time if you take care of it.


Jim


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## goldsilverpro (Jan 9, 2008)

Be careful with graphite powder. It's not good to breathe it. I've heard horror stories about the health of people that machine graphite.


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## Anonymous (Jan 9, 2008)

That is a good point. I would caution against all particulate matter though.
Also, forgot, you have to allow the plaster mold to dry out. I make mine way to big (so they can easily absorb the water) an may the clay a real runny slurry and my crucibles turn out rock solid. I also use alumina as a filler instead of graphite because some metals will dissolve the graphite and be contaminated by it. You will need alumina powder, caution again.

I do not know if this would work for cupels, are they porus? to absorb the lead? if not this would work to make them also.

Jim


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## 61 silverman (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim thanks for the info about the ceramic's, :wink: I have lived in and around a ceramic shop my whole life, I am very familiar with the molds used as well as the slip used too pour the molds, My mother has been a ceramic teacher for the past "40" years. With the buisness at home!! as a teen-ager and before I worked as a caster.. Please understand I don't want tooo come off ass a know it all, by any means, for I am not.
The idea of adding a graghite powder too the slip is a very good one.  I just can't find enough time too do everything I want to..I am going too look for an old mold that isn't used any more to commandeer for the cause.
A question ? you said the crucible after casting and setting for handling, should be oven dried at 150 then 250 then fired,? are you refering too firing in a kiln or with a torch ?
Thank You very much for your HELP
MARK


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## Anonymous (Jan 13, 2008)

Mark,

I dry mine real good then fire in a home made kiln. I made the kiln from
electric furnace parts, firebrick and ceramic wool insulation that I baught on ebay. I work as a all around electrician, hvac, restaurant equipment repair, refrigeration tech and fix just about everything thing else so I have lots of parts to make stuff from. I do not know the temps
but I use the hi temp heating elements. I have never measured the temp
but I always use brazing googles after it is up to heat. I have melted
aluminum, brass, and copper with my furnace. I am just getting into the
refining so I have not tried silver or gold yet.

I have an infinite controller that allows me to run the temp up in stages by
time but I do not know what the temps are my IR temp gun maxes out at 
1000 so I just have knob settings ie, 1 - 10 that are usefull to me. 

The actual type of clay you use will deturmine how hot your crucible will handle. If you get some good fire clay you can make some that will 
get you buy until you can buy real one. My homemade ones are mostly for aluminum and they perform quite well with this metal. Copper is close to the limit and I usually for safety have the clay crucible as a liner for a 
stainless or iron crucible that way if the clay fails it is contained within the stainless. You can not just use stainless because it dissolves in the molten copper.

Jim


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## 61 silverman (Aug 20, 2009)

James , A long time it has been but I finally got around too trying to make a crucible,,
I cast a piece, I used a small planter shape.. dried well and heated in a neycraft oven..I heated to 1975 F. The ceramic held up fine under the heat.. I'm told it's limit is around 2250 F. I got the whole piece coated with borax, a nice clear coat , There was one more spot at the top edge I had missed, tried to get some Borax to flow there when it slipped out of my tongs,,, BAD WORD ++BAD WORD,, broke when it hit the floor, I believe it will work though,, I made a couple more today and will try them out very soon,,I don't plan on having any more than a five ounce pour of precious metals, so internal pressure should not be a concern.. Thank Mark


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## Gold Trail (Aug 20, 2009)

61 silverman, I think even some of the best melting dishes will break when dropped a few feet onto a concrete floor.

some pics of your dishes, and mold would be helpfull, if not informitive

also note, ( i know times are hard right now for everyone), but decent melting dishes can be had for a reasonable prices, ready made I get these pinkish colored ones from a person on eBay, at a really reasonable price . they seem to hold up really well, too. ill try to locate there info.

Ryan


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## 61 silverman (Aug 23, 2009)

Ryan, Yes times are HARD. Locating the melting dishes and crucibles is not a problem, I live only 5 miles from Action Mining Services Inc. They are very nice people, A friend of mine works for them..I have purchased both crucibles and melting dishes from them as well as many other supplies, no shipping charges...My reason for exploring the possibility of making my own,is that I have all the necessary equipment, All I need is to find the right mix.. I have porcelan slip ( the liquid used to pour the mold ), as well as stoneware powder ( just add water and mix )..
Results with the ceramic material as is , The Borax used as a flux EATS AWAY THE CERAMIC over time.. Here is a couple of pictures
MarkView attachment 1


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## Palladium (Aug 23, 2009)

Mark, you are a very skilled craftsman, And i do mean craftsman. I wish i had those type skills.

To bad for me all i have is my beauty and good looks. :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## butcher (Aug 23, 2009)

upclose is a little scary, glad I'm not a mouse


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## 61 silverman (Aug 30, 2009)

palladium, nice my kitty didn't think that was scary , LOL


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## Palladium (Aug 30, 2009)

Now that's funny.
The Mickey Mouse guy with a cat. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I see we have another cat lover.


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## 61 silverman (Aug 30, 2009)

She is second Generation,Her mothers spittin image,, Which ran off when i decided too keep this one...???


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