# Anyone ever recovered gold using sound waves?



## Anonymous (Apr 5, 2008)

I have been thinking that we all may be barking up the wrong tree in the recovery systems we use. They are fun but messy! As Chemical reactions are diven by a number of factors and those factors. 
We may bring about a better result by using sound waves to recover PMs. As each PM has a differnet melting point and also a differnet material density. And all are subject to sound wave forces. The right sound wave generated at the right pulse under the right pressure. Could actually destroy the chemical bond that attaches any metal to another material. 
A example of the great benefit of the system would be that one would be able to desolve all the welded solders off a with a sound wave. You could start by melting the gold, then the silver ect. You could actually even melt the mother board and leave all the misc. parts to be sorted and recover even the smallest trace amounts. A nice addition to the process would be that if you removed the air and replace it with different gases you could get the PMS to glow under different sound waves so as to ID the PMS. Or you could mic up and lisen for the metals to talk to you. As metals will produce a sound when bombarded by sound. Like I said we may be barking up the wrong tree :?:


----------



## ChucknC (Apr 5, 2008)

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure it could be applied in that manner. Some sound waves are so intense, they do generate heat, but I don't think they could be refined to be so selctive.

That said, mechanical waves are used in dredges to cause fine and floating gold to sink. Sound waves are used in similar applications to cause soot to fall out of a gasseous solution at power plants prior to the use of mechanical scrubbers processing the gas emmissions.

All in all, you may be generally on to a new application. Keep researching and let us know what you find.

Chuck


----------



## Palladium (Apr 5, 2008)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12517024.200-sounding-out-new-chemistry-ultrasonic-waves-can-createtemperatures-as-high-as-those-at-the-surface-of-the-sun-and-pressures-ashigh-as-those-in-the-deepest-oceans-not-surprisingly-ultrasound-producessome-interesting-chemistry-as-researchers-are-finding-out.html


----------



## peter i (Apr 5, 2008)

Rammstein or Bach for chemistry!

But chemistry is about moving electrons, and the poor little buggers have no ears! Unless you move into the region of shock waves, I think there will be little use in this for the amateur.


----------



## Palladium (Apr 5, 2008)

peter i said:


> Rammstein or Bach for chemistry!
> 
> But chemistry is about moving electrons, and the poor little buggers have no ears! Unless you move into the region of shock waves, I think there will be little use in this for the amateur.



They have Ears. You just have to scream loud enough. :wink: 

One use could be to remove the oxide layer that forms on metals, thus allowing attack by acids.


----------



## Harold_V (Apr 5, 2008)

For those interested in reading and talking about jazz, posts relating to that topic have been split off and will be found in the Bar & Grill forum listed under Jazz Talk!

Harold


----------



## Rag and Bone (Apr 6, 2008)

I hope the soundwave-recovery set can recover from this deviation
If you have any info on this subject you should definetely pipe-up
I'm sure the alchemists had stranger ideas, which might have led to worthy discoveries...Who knows?


----------



## Anonymous (Apr 8, 2008)

So.. how do u make such powerful ultrasound waves ? Where do u even get speakers like that ? Home cinema speakers can't reproduce ultrasounds. And what volume is actualy needed ? 
If it could be done my any average person, it could be a great way to smelt . Right ?


----------



## ChucknC (Apr 8, 2008)

I tried putting a base speaker under a piece of carboard with some fineprospecting concentrates on top. Believe it or not, the blacksands and gold mostly seperated, but not completely. I don't know how this will turn out, but it does invite some more experimentation and research.

This was just about a teaspoon full. Not much, and it was extremely fine. I don't know how it would work with above about 50mesh.

Chuck


----------



## Kurr (Apr 8, 2008)

Hello all. 

Thank you for the forum. This is indeed curious to me as well. Perhaps it may be barking up the wrong tree, but also in the right forest. What about something other than sonic? Micro radio waves? I recently read where a man was able to use a magnetron to emit waves that caused the hydrogen to be split from saltwater, which burned hot enough to melt his test tube. Surely as we scrap we have all come across old microwaves that have at least a basic magnetron in them. I dunno, just what popped into mind whilst reading this.


----------



## OMG (Apr 8, 2008)

I realize this isn't what you meant, but just for curiosity, you should try using high strength sound waves during normal leaching procedures. I bet you could speed up the reaction rate!
As a matter of fact... I will try that.. when I get some time.


----------



## peter i (Apr 9, 2008)

I think you would get better results attaching an industrial vibrator to the vessel or by building a "vibrating table"

(If you google "home-made vibrator" don't do it as a picture search :shock: Or braze yourself for a visual experience! )

This guy has a nice idea:


> The plywood box housed an old 1/3 HP washing machine motor with the steel metal pulley edge cut off on one side of it so it was the vibrating mechanism.



http://www.artmetal.com/brambush/forum/bramyak1/messages/347.html

A picture search for "industrial vibrator" is quite safe. They are made from very small sizes, up to contraptions capable of vibrating a railcar.


----------



## scavenger (Apr 9, 2008)

Put a CPU and Hydrochloric acid into a beaker and place in a microwave oven. Cook on high for 5 minutes. I would but my wife would destroy me.


----------



## Anonymous (Apr 19, 2008)

ChucknC said:


> I tried putting a base speaker under a piece of carboard with some fineprospecting concentrates on top. Believe it or not, the blacksands and gold mostly seperated, but not completely. I don't know how this will turn out, but it does invite some more experimentation and research.
> 
> This was just about a teaspoon full. Not much, and it was extremely fine. I don't know how it would work with above about 50mesh.
> 
> Chuck



*ChucknC;*

There are "at least" a few different possibilities for what you observed:
a) Coincidence.
b) The sound waves "alone" did indeed separate the gold from the black sand, leaving a "middle" area of combined iron and gold material. (In my area of Canada approximately 50% of gold has ferrous material in it and due to the coloration caused by this material, it is often mistaken for pure iron by those who don't know better.)
c) A combination of the low frequency sound waves and the high frequency electromagnetic waves resulting from the speakers coil and the low frequency electromagnetic waves from the speaker magnets, combined to; 1)Hold the ferrous material near the electromagnetic wave sources and 2)Vibrate the gold (nonferrous material) enough that the slightest incline in the surface that they were located on, helped to cause them to separate from the other material.


*ATTENTION:
For all those looking into the area of sound as a tool for separating PM's;*

There are potential life threatening dangers when you experiment with low level sound waves. Some of you may have heard of Nikola Tesla's Earthquake Machine. There is mention of that here: http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Biographies/TeslaBio-2.htm
And here:
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/site.php?postnum=478

And my bet is that most haven't heard of the effects of what is known as infrasonics, (sound waves that are inaudible to the human ear), on human organs. For more on the topic see: http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139495


At least, thats my thoughts on the matter. And since this is my first post to these forums, I'll keep it light hearted.  


OGG.


----------



## Anonymous (Apr 22, 2008)

Geez... I didn't mean to come off sounding all doom and gloomish. Its actually a good idea to use sound for cleaning, separating, screening, filtering and feeding materials. Not at all uncommon in industry either, but they usually use ultrasound. Just Google "ultrasonic material separator" without the double quotes and you'll get thousands of hits. Like this one:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2006129262&IA=WO2006129262&DISPLAY=DESC
Titled: "RECOVERY OF PARTICULATE MATERIAL FROM SLURRIES"

OGG.


----------



## homefires (Aug 13, 2008)

I worked for a Electronic manufacturer that used Ultra Sonics to Weld Wire together in a splice.


----------



## GeeDub (Feb 19, 2009)

You know, I have been thinking of ways to make a really cheap agitator for my dissolution solutions. 
You may have just solved the problem. 
I'm going to try strapping a speaker or two on the side of the plastic barrels.


----------



## butcher (Feb 19, 2009)

rock and roll Huh, or some good drums of country, or classical let us know what work the best.?


----------



## jsargent (Feb 19, 2009)

Ultrasound is the one thing I've not tried incorporating into my leach process and would like to do so. Challenge is finding an industrial scale ultrasound sonicator that I can afford. For those of you working on batches of a couple gallons or so it might be fun to experiment with sonication to speed up the processes.


----------



## goldsilverpro (Feb 19, 2009)

Sometimes, in scrap yards, you can find old stainless steel vapor degreaser tanks that were used for freon before it was banned. In many of them, there is a powerful ultrasonic unit in the bottom. You can spot them by looking for a cooling coil mounted around the inside near the top of the tank. Most that I've seen were about 18" x 30" x 30" deep. The u'sonic power unit is usually a heavy separate box with a cable.

When freon was first banned, you could find tons of them, especially in scrap yards that were near large electronics manufacturers (i.e., Silicon Valley). In the last few years, I have still run across a few of them. I found one in Houston a couple of years ago.


----------



## jsargent (Feb 19, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Sometimes, in scrap yards, you can find old stainless steel vapor degreaser tanks that were used for freon before it was banned. In many of them, there is a powerful ultrasonic unit in the bottom. You can spot them by looking for a cooling coil mounted around the inside near the top of the tank. Most that I've seen were about 18" x 30" x 30" deep. The u'sonic power unit is usually a heavy separate box with a cable.
> 
> When freon was first banned, you could find tons of them, especially in scrap yards that were near large electronics manufacturers (i.e., Silicon Valley). In the last few years, I have still run across a few of them. I found one in Houston a couple of years ago.


Thanks for the tip. Time for a road trip to Green Guys Recycling and another great excuse to bring home a fresh pile of junk.


----------



## nicknitro (Mar 6, 2009)

I would deffinitely not reccomend putting a CPU in some HCL acid in the microwave and powering it up. However, it could be done, harmlessly in a vaccuum. The presence of oxygen is what makes the cool sparks that occur when metal is used in a microwave. 

A really cool company has patented a process for using high frequency microwaves in a vaccum to refine old tires into their organic bases, such as oil, gasoline, and other petrols. The steel from the belts inside the tires is also seperated and recycled. 

The company stock Ticker is GBRC, Global Resource Corp. Don't know if this helps you, or intrigues you however I figured it could be worth the read? 

Nick :lol:


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 12, 2009)

Anybody ever used Supercritical co2 to extract gold from an ar soulution?


----------



## jsargent (Mar 12, 2009)

fecker15144 said:


> Anybody ever used Supercritical co2 to extract gold from an ar soulution?



No... but funny you should mention it. Earlier today I was thinking about supercritical CO2 as a potential leaching agent. 15 years ago I worked with a bench top supercritical CO2 extractor at the lab. Used it to extract organics from soil samples. Pretty cool technology and totally benign. I wonder if it might be a useful alternative to DMG? The cool thing is that no precipitation is needed after extraction. Just open the valve and the CO2 gasses off and all that's left is the extracted material.


----------



## aflacglobal (Mar 13, 2009)

Jeff, I checked out your web site.  

From what i can gather your looking for new processes in recovery and refining. I like your train of thought. :wink: :wink: 

I also like the fact your using real science and not some pie in the sky dream. I'd like to pick your brain sometime.

Thanks


----------



## jsargent (Mar 13, 2009)

aflacglobal said:


> Jeff, I checked out your web site.
> 
> From what i can gather your looking for new processes in recovery and refining. I like your train of thought. :wink: :wink:
> 
> ...



Hey Thanks Aflac! Drop me an email or call anytime. I really appreciate the video links and other info and links you've posted here. This forum is GREAT :!: Many knowledgeable and helpful folks here.


----------



## EVO-AU (Oct 9, 2009)

Tommy Joe and others:

You might look into the works of F.G. Cottrell ( around the turn of the century ) and A.D. Moore in regards to using electrostatics for precipitation. These processes are being used in industry today. I'm currently building an electrostataic generator with a drum pickup/discharge that I gleaned from Moores' book. A lot of possibilities there.

Also, as I posted a couple years back, is the bulding and using of a non-ferrous magnet. I built one and it did move small particles about fifteen inches or so. But being of an AC source, the amps can be quite lethal.

Another forum member posted a treatise he picked up, but there is nothing like building one and seeing what can be done.

Have fun, domo, Phill

My earlier post is labled "Non-ferrous magnetism"


----------



## Palladium (Oct 9, 2009)

Evo, Take a look at this. :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2987


----------



## EVO-AU (Nov 11, 2009)

Tommy Joe: Surfing and caught your post about sound waves. Have you ever thought about electrostatics ? It is being done in a grand commecial way. I am building a small unit based on Cottrells work ( c. 1900's ) Also look up the work of Walt Noon. And you might check out WWW.LINDSAYBKS.COM . Wealth of information there. Phill


----------



## Irons (Nov 11, 2009)

goldsilverpro said:


> Sometimes, in scrap yards, you can find old stainless steel vapor degreaser tanks that were used for freon before it was banned. In many of them, there is a powerful ultrasonic unit in the bottom. You can spot them by looking for a cooling coil mounted around the inside near the top of the tank. Most that I've seen were about 18" x 30" x 30" deep. The u'sonic power unit is usually a heavy separate box with a cable.
> 
> When freon was first banned, you could find tons of them, especially in scrap yards that were near large electronics manufacturers (i.e., Silicon Valley). In the last few years, I have still run across a few of them. I found one in Houston a couple of years ago.



We had a huge one, bigger than a bathtub at one place I worked. That cooling coil worked well to condense the freon vapor, but apparently not well enough.

Fill it part way with water and set your jugs of leach in the tank.


----------



## EVO-AU (Nov 18, 2009)

What ? No pickup on electrostatics !! Makes the world go round . Impossible to live without the transfer of those little buggers . There is a photo of a Van de Graff generator built back in the thirties floating around. I was lucky enough to be on the labor end of one built at my university about fifty years back. Now that REALLY had a spark gap. You really have to experience it to believe what power can be achieved with E/S. Phill


----------



## EVO-AU (Nov 20, 2009)

Isn't anyone out there on this forum interested in E/S for Au revovery ? Sure would like to hear from you !

Phill


----------



## EVO-AU (Dec 14, 2009)

Butcher: 

I see you are an engineer. Probably not in your line, but grabbing at straws is the way I usually learn. Have you ever experimented in or built anything in regards to electrostatics ? Phill


----------



## butcher (Dec 15, 2009)

I work as a building engineer in a hospital, running and repairing boilers chillers and and all the equiptment to run the building, make repair's to almost everything in the hospital, am boilerman,steamfitter, plumber, electrician, do electronics, repairs to firepanels, repair most anything and everything,
I know almost nothing about the use of electrostatics or sound wave's as you fellers are discussing their use.

since I am here, I have noticed, something you guys might answer for me, I have noticed when a precipitant forms and it forms crystals, they predominately form on one side of all my jars, always seem to form crystals on that side more and if they form on side of jar always on that side, for where I am at it is the southern side,it may shift somewhat east or west but always on south, since I am in the northern hemisphere the sun and moon is always southerly, would these effect crystalization? or could it be light or temperature, as even if jar is turned it still forms southerly, maybe there just good ole dixie land crystals? or is there a principle I am missing?


----------



## EVO-AU (Dec 15, 2009)

Butcher:

Gosh, I am repeating myself. You answered a post of mine sometimes back in regards to the same question. Pardon my blooper. As to your question about material seeking one side of a container over the other side, I have no answer to that one. However, I will be following this as I am most interested in what others have to offer. Any astrologers out there ? Phill


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 16, 2009)

Butcher:

I would think it depends on slight temperature variations in your vessels. Solubility for salts is generally higher with higher temperature. So if you have a heat source, for example the sun, then it would make crystallization start in the back side of the vessel where the temperature is colder. When crystallization have started at one place it is easier to grow there than start new crystals so the effect will be amplified.

If you have a solution that is allowed to evaporate very slowly then large crystals will form as the energy in a large crystal is lower than in a small crystal. No, it's not a new age thing, it is sound science. The atoms making up the edge and corners of a crystal is more loosely attached than the ones on the flat crystal face, therefore a large crystal is slightly harder to dissolve than a small crystal. The effect is most easily shown when you have a closed jar with small crystals in a solution. Over time the larger crystals will grow and the smaller shrink. Small temperature variations will speed things up but even at constant temperature this is an ongoing process.

/Göran


----------



## butcher (Dec 16, 2009)

thanks, I do need more study on crystal formation, well I am kinda disappointed, I thought these may have been southerly seeking crystals. :lol:


----------

