# Where is the value of HDD logic boards?



## Goerg (Jul 5, 2011)

In the scrap industry, hdd logic boards are the best payed boards by far. 
I have began to do some research in order to find where is the value, and so far, without any clue. I`ve been breaking the chips, but I didn`t found PMs. I dissolved some of the metal parts in them in AR and tested with stanneous chloride without any color as result.
May be the tantalum in capacitors?
May be they reuse the chips?

Any ideas will be welcome. Thanks.


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## Ocean (Jul 5, 2011)

Great question.


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## Claudie (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't know the answer to your question. I am thinking that since the boards on hard drives are thinner than other boards, and have more IC packages per square inch, that the weight ratio of what is good compared to that of a blank board might have something to do with it. That doesn't explain why some places pay $6.00 per pound for ICs and then pay close to $10.00 per pound for the logic boards. The boards also have Gold plated pins, but I wouldn't think that should have that great of an effect on the price.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 5, 2011)

Their thickness, population by SMD, gold in IC packages (you will not see that gold unless you use magnification)


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## Harold_V (Jul 5, 2011)

Goerg said:


> In the scrap industry, hdd logic boards are the best payed boards by far.
> I have began to do some research in order to find where is the value, and so far, without any clue. I`ve been breaking the chips, but I didn`t found PMs. I dissolved some of the metal parts in them in AR and tested with stanneous chloride without any color as result.


Not an indication of the lack of values. If you used too much acid, the response may be muted, or even non-existent. It also may flash and be re-dissolved almost instantly. I experienced that on many occasions. 

Another possibility is that you used too little acid, so not all of the base components were dissolved. With that in mind, any values that may have been dissolved would have been cemented, leaving you a barren solution. 

Harold


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## glondor (Jul 5, 2011)

Now where could you find wisdom like that. Thanks Harold.


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## Harold_V (Jul 6, 2011)

glondor said:


> Now where could you find wisdom like that. Thanks Harold.


Welcome. 
There's no substitute for experience, *and reading Hoke*. 
Remember, that's where I learned almost everything I know about refining. That's why I always tell readers to read her book. It's much better than many imagine. It just requires a little effort on their part. 

Harold


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## Goerg (Jul 6, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> Goerg said:
> 
> 
> > In the scrap industry, hdd logic boards are the best payed boards by far.
> ...



Thank you for the help, Harold. Being one of the guys with more experience here, have you tried the HDD logic boards?


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## Harold_V (Jul 7, 2011)

Goerg said:


> Thank you for the help, Harold. Being one of the guys with more experience here, have you tried the HDD logic boards?


Unfortunately, no, I have not. I sold my refining operation back in '94 and have not refined since. 

I am not a good source of information where escrap is concerned, but I am somewhat familiar with refining, in general. The basics don't change much---which is why Hoke's book is so valuable. What she teaches can be applied to virtually anything you encounter in the way of refining precious metals. 

Harold


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## machiavelli976 (Jul 7, 2011)

> May be they reuse the chips?
> 
> Any ideas will be welcome. Thanks.



Bingo !

Also cell-phones industry reuses a lot of scrap components .


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## johnny309 (Jul 7, 2011)

Any type of chips that was produced more than 5 years ago in today's electronics wouls be obsolete(it's usefull only for servicing and colectors).
They try to minimize the costs of everything.
What is the reason that microcontrolers (the PIC family) appears?
Simple :what a logic board (20 years ago) with 80 IC's can do.....now it is done by a simple IC.
Imagine the board and 80 black IC's....the cost of labor,copper,silver,gold.......all "punched" back in an small IC.


P.S.:
I like people who "dream"......but the gold fever has a nasty to it.
Now we have info....google,virtual library,forums.........DO NOT HEASIATE TO READ.
For your health I'm most worried about(people in rush,eventually they get injured).


PRICE: why is so high?
1) labor involved...separating board from HDD
2) by weight it doesn't contain a lot of iron and plastic (like the mother boards)
3)uppgrading a computer ,ussually you do not change the hard drive.......in short older electronic parts.


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## Claudie (Jul 7, 2011)

johnny309 said:


> Any type of chips that was produced more than 5 years ago in today's electronics wouls be obsolete(it's usefull only for servicing and colectors).
> They try to minimize the costs of everything.
> What is the reason that microcontrolers (the PIC family) appears?
> Simple :what a logic board (20 years ago) with 80 IC's can do.....now it is done by a simple IC.
> ...



That doesn't explain why the boards bring close to $10.00 USD and the IC packages/chips only bring around $6.00USD.


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## Barren Realms 007 (Jul 7, 2011)

Claudie said:


> johnny309 said:
> 
> 
> > Any type of chips that was produced more than 5 years ago in today's electronics wouls be obsolete(it's usefull only for servicing and colectors).
> ...



Take the idea of buying parts for a car, you can buy a whole car for less than you can buy the parts and put them together. Similar with a HD board sold as whole they recognize what the board is but if you take the parts off the buyer is not positive what the parts come from and what loss in solder and other parts so they discount the purchase to cover themselves.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 7, 2011)

I would say that recyclers recover nearly everything they get in. Plastic IC chips contain only small amount of metals inside compare to mass yet hdd board can get you iron, aluminum, copper, tin, nickel, gold, silver, palladium.... And it is much lighter and smaller (more populated) comparing to motherboard.


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## glondor (Jul 7, 2011)

I still do not think there is a satisfactory answer to this question here. One of my contacts gets 17 a pound for old memory. He says the chips get removed in China and come back in toys. I am not sure I believe this but it does help to explain the price he gets. There are other markets most of us have not discovered yet I think.


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## Claudie (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe we should be recycling those toys.... :|


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## glondor (Jul 7, 2011)

You know all those toys you get your kids at Christmas that only work for an hour.....


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## patnor1011 (Jul 7, 2011)

Well, I don't believe that this is being done. Like desoldering chips from old ram modules or hdd boards. Not on industrial size. Never heard of such a thing. Price of anything depend on where in that material chain you stand. Every middleman want his cut.


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## Claudie (Jul 8, 2011)

patnor1011 said:


> Well, I don't believe that this is being done. Like desoldering chips from old ram modules or hdd boards. Not on industrial size. Never heard of such a thing. Price of anything depend on where in that material chain you stand. Every middleman want his cut.



I doubt that they reuse the chips too. The time involved in sorting and testing would out weigh the cost of new packages.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 8, 2011)

We (or most of people) tend to see that gold there. To big electronic refiner gold makes small portion of profit. Bulk of his money comes from other metals. No wonder that they are called copper smelters and not gold smelters. Copper value is many times higher than gold on 99% of boards they refine.


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## escrap (Jul 8, 2011)

Look at the cross section of a hard Drive board and then look at a cross section of a motherboard. The substrate material in a hd board is much much thinner. This is kind of like fingers, your price per pound will be much better if your fingers are cut close than if you have a large amount of board on your fingers. This and the fact that there are no aluminum heat sinks, no steel and a good chip population cause for the higher price.

Zack Morris


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## Claudie (Jul 8, 2011)

Then why are "chips" by themselves, worth less money per pound?


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## patnor1011 (Jul 8, 2011)

Claudie said:


> Then why are "chips" by themselves, worth less money per pound?



Take kilogram of hdd boards and extract all metals there. 
Take a kilogram of chips and do the same. 

What pile will be bigger? Answer is in price.


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## Claudie (Jul 8, 2011)

That's what I've been trying to say.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 8, 2011)

There is simply less money in pound of chips than in pound of boards (all metals wise) 
We talk about IC packages all that black square surface mounted - 90% of weight will be packaging material and maybe 10% of metal. 
Metal percentage will be much higher in boards.


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## machiavelli976 (Jul 8, 2011)

Claudie said:


> patnor1011 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I don't believe that this is being done. Like desoldering chips from old ram modules or hdd boards. Not on industrial size. Never heard of such a thing. Price of anything depend on where in that material chain you stand. Every middleman want his cut.
> ...



Don't be so sure !
When the worker is cheap , there will always be someone able to 'pull' money from almost nothing. 
I've heard that many reused devices are coming back to us as pirate products.


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## patnor1011 (Jul 8, 2011)

machiavelli976 said:


> Claudie said:
> 
> 
> > patnor1011 said:
> ...



Yes, you are right about devices and parts. I would think that in IC packages case this is not possible or better say not reasonable. It is not case of cheap labor but technology as most of todays IC packages are way too small to be unsoldered by hand without damaging them. It will require device of some sort - rather expensive piece of machinery. Even if there will be machine for doing that at hand this whole process will require enormous investment time-wise as bought scrap boards will have to be sorted manually. With zillions of types and numbers of IC on them thoroughly mixed that kind of operation is pretty unimaginable.


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## macfixer01 (Jul 9, 2011)

Well you may notice on Ebay that some people sell boards off of scrapped hard drives to be used in trying to recover lost data. That is if the buyer who has a failed drive can find someone selling a board from the same brand and model of hard drive. And if it is the board that failed, and not a bad motor, bad actuator, crashed heads, etc.

Other than that I can't imagine why more would be paid for HDD boards as scrap except perhaps the overall high density of components? They generally are light weight and have very little wasted space on them.

macfixer01


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## Mschindler300 (Aug 18, 2011)

Desoldeing is actully done pretty easy i design a automatic machine a few year ago that could desoldier a full board in 20 -30 mins using a hot air and shaker technique on a conveyor works great chips came out in mint condition with some pins damaged every now and then. Now sorting and testing is a different story i have seen people use computer and robotic arms to test Ic chips


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## justme2 (Feb 15, 2014)

Barren Realms 007 said:


> Claudie said:
> 
> 
> > johnny309 said:
> ...



Take the idea of buying parts for a car, you can buy a whole car for less than you can buy the parts and put them together. Similar with a HD board sold as whole they recognize what the board is but if you take the parts off the buyer is not positive what the parts come from and what loss in solder and other parts so they discount the purchase to cover themselves.[/quot

scrap car parts and scrap HDD boards are apples and oranges, used care parts for the most part are reused, scrap HDD boards are for the most part scraped. So the value is there some where.

A lb of HHD boards are going for $10 to the buyers. There are few MMlCs and few flat blacks on each board. some one has to figure out the average poundage of whole boards to make one lb of flat black chips (the value of the pins would be fairly insignificant) then compare the value of that many boards compared to the value of the PMs recovered. The buyers and refineries, are too sharp to over value a board price. The value has to be there some where,. The original question was and is, where is that value. Just my .02.


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## Auggie (Feb 16, 2014)

Amazing. All these replies and still no answer. Perhaps someone who actually processes these boards could chime in.


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## Alentia (Feb 16, 2014)

I have ran assays on HDD cards:

1. Mixed Lot
2. IDE
3. SCSI
4. SATA

Metal recovered values are in line with what Boardsort and other alikes paying for them. Most values are in chips. Foils from HDD boards yield about 0.05-0.1 per lb based on board type. It is not worth the trouble to recover unless you recover other metals (or at least tin and copper) in addition to Au and Pt. I am yet to confirm SCSI results on Tue or Wed, which might actually yield better, but if you sort your SCSI boards separately from the rest you may demand higher premium from the buyer.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 16, 2014)

Claudie said:


> Then why are "chips" by themselves, worth less money per pound?


Maybe because the chips on HDD boards are all high density, a lot of pins each with a bond wire. While generally "chips" is an average of DIL, PLCC, EPROM... and so on plus a margin of safety so they don't make a loss if there's a lot of larger chips in a batch. For a HDD board it is quite well defined what you are getting.

Do we have any references to where the price difference is coming from?

Göran


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## Alentia (Feb 16, 2014)

g_axelsson said:


> Claudie said:
> 
> 
> > Then why are "chips" by themselves, worth less money per pound?
> ...



Each SCSI drive board has at least one "flatpack" - green base with golden corner chip yielding around 0.015 per chip.

The cost of chips is lower, because they are not "cherry picked" and most of them have very low gold content, including regular eproms. I am in the process of assaying various chip type, but based on what I saw so far, big rectangular and square chips yield very little. For example, like low power 486SX CPUs yield as much as 0.001 per CPU. 10% of their total weight are copper legs. Another large percentage attributed to internal copper "skeleton" - silicon dye holder, which usually contain little or no gold.

Again, scrap prices are based on random average, as no scrap dealer has time to sort, nor usually understands that hiring another employee to sort scrap and remove heatsinks and brackets will pay out at the end.


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## Tzoax (May 12, 2015)

The hard disk boards are made of high grade materials since the hard drives are securing data. That means that all of the MLCCs contains Ag/Pd instead of cheaper versions of MLCCs that not include Pd. In 1 kilogram of hdd boards there is approximately 32 boards, more or less, and they all have high grade MLCCs, especially big ones. If each board contains only 1 gram of MLCCs that is about 30 grams of MLCCs per kilogram, and that is between 0.3-0.9g of pure Palladium, by todays price of Pd that is between 7.55$ - 22.65$ per kilogram of HDD boards (if each board contains only 1 gram of MLCC). And I was not counting silver from MLCCs. When You add pins and chips values, the profit should be at least 3 times more than they are paying in scrapyard.


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## shmandi (May 12, 2015)

I agree that there s value in HDD boards. But HDD boards that contain 1 gram of MLCCs are very rare.


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## Tzoax (May 17, 2015)

shmandi said:


> I agree that there s value in HDD boards. But HDD boards that contain 1 gram of MLCCs are very rare.


That is correct. I thought there was more. I scrapped 1.5 kilogram of various hdd boards and there is average 0.4g of MLCC per board.


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## g_axelsson (May 17, 2015)

Tzoax said:


> shmandi said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that there s value in HDD boards. But HDD boards that contain 1 gram of MLCCs are very rare.
> ...


How many boards was that, or what was the average weight of a board?

Göran

(Edited to hopefully make it clearer what I'm asking about.)


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## Tzoax (May 18, 2015)

g_axelsson said:


> Tzoax said:
> 
> 
> > shmandi said:
> ...


There was 48 HDD boards in 1.5 kilogram, so 31 gram is average weight of one board, and I collected 21 grams of MLCC, that makes about 0.4375 grams of MLCCs per board.


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## meatheadmerlin (Sep 6, 2015)

They are used in data recovery to fix a hard drive 
that has good mechanical parts but a broken logic board.
There are large warehouses of carefully cataloged logic boards
to match them with drives to affect this type of recovery.
Professional data recovery is very costly for the person who needs it
and often comes with no guarantees.


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