# Materials-retail vs wholesale.. a refiners bottom line



## The Refiner49er (Feb 27, 2008)

I have spent many hours, days studying the information on this forum. 
Although I have just started, my intent is to recover and refine precious metals professionally. 

As I begin acquiring materials for processing, predominately on Ebay; I observe the cost of this material usually goes way up by the end of the auction. I am new at this game, however, my research leads me to conclude the margin of cost vs yield is often unattractive.  

I have read GSP's posts on manufacturers waste, and am interested in pursuing this type of resource. I am seeking advice on locating these sources, approaching and initiating contacts, negotiating price on bulk quantities, and anything else that could be helpful. 

I have to believe that the bulk of Ebay sellers are individuals that have connections with these sources, buy large lots, then sell smaller quantities
to the end user/refiner. I have no objection to individuals profiting from this, it is indeed a lucrative business. 

*As a professional refiner it is imparitive to acquire material at the lowest possible cost. *

Thank you for your input on these issues. 

Sincerely, 

John


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## calgoldrecyclers (Feb 27, 2008)

John,
i would have to agree with you, stay away from ebay. start with craigs list/ free cycle and likeminded sites. a simple ad stating that you will remove unwanted computers and computer parts free of charge will do the trick in most cases, with the occaisional office cleanout contractor calling you to remove hundreds of old 486 computers! good luck.


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## skyline27 (Feb 27, 2008)

Profitable scrap on ebay is tough to find. The skyrocketing metal prices only make it harder. Really good deals do come along but it is usually because the seller has listed his auction poorly and the gold fever patients haven't found it. Bid smart and bid often. The only way I can see to make money at this game is to get materials for free or charge people for collection. Even if you have a big pile of free 486 it's a lot of man hours until you see any money. Then figure in all the junk monitors and printers you're stuck with.


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## Gotrek (Feb 27, 2008)

I get free stuff all the time I refurbish systems for the less fortunate. I have an add online (one site) and one in the local paper.
In two weeks I average about 50 computers. I also take misc electronics (using the parts to repair other items such as tv's, vcr's etc. I run the add until I'm full of trash then put it on hold and renew it when I'm out of parts.

I'm in a small city (600 000 people) and there is no shortage of older systems.

With that said. I have no clue how you would make money salvaging precious metals. There's just not enough value in one system. Selling the parts online sure. That's where you make $$$. Recovering gold and other metals not likely. You'd have to process tons. Which brings on the cost of storage, and workers to process all of it, machinery, electric bills, chemical bills etc etc... You'd be hard press to make a business of it.

Look at our local recycling places most are governement funded because they can never break even.

I don't know how those of you do it for a living.

I'd refine gold from scrap just for the sake of saying I did it. You can buy gold for 30$ a gram. Doubt you can make a gram for 30$ from scrap.


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## calgoldrecyclers (Feb 27, 2008)

i was readig some where, or maybe it was in the news, about someone recycling e-waste. the gist is: let the government fund your e- waste recycling endeavors by way of federal grants. (suposedly) the government will help you pay for a set-up to recycle e-waste and old computers. let me know if it works out for you, or if you find anything out.
bogus? happy huntig!


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## starzfan0211 (Feb 29, 2008)

Where did you find that about a grant to set up to refine e-waste?


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## calgoldrecyclers (Mar 1, 2008)

starzfan0211,
try grant.gov. this is a good start.


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## GeeDub (Feb 22, 2009)

Federal grants? The last thing I would want is the Feds having access to my gold dealings.

The way to get material to refine is through legwork.
Make a list of all possible users in your area and approach them. 
Plating shops.
Metallizing firms.
Solder and braze manufacturers. Ask them for a list of their customer for;
Shops that use their solders or brazes.
Jewelers for bench and polishing sweeps. Avoid karat gold if you are in a competitive area. You margin will be forced too thin by competing offers.
Gas stations for Cat Cons, sensors.
Electronic parts manufacturers.
Computer repair shops.
Rugs leading up to PM workrooms.
Talk to your sanitation men.
Photo processors.
Dentists.
Dental Labs.
Litho printers.
Hospitals.

The list is endless. With some legwork, you will find lots of people who are throwing out precious metals. Offer to process it for 50% of whatever you get out. Give them the true 50%, don't be greedy. Just learn enough about your industry to be able to evaluate it correctly so you don't waste your time.

Try a hot girl as the person who does the legwork. My friend had a good looking wife. Customers would shut the door in _his_ face, but flag _her_ down just to see what she was selling.

Also Check out GSPs list of manufacturing scrap on this forum:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=281


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## hosef (Feb 22, 2009)

If I were going to go those people, what would I ask for? I know I would want the electronics, plating mess-ups, and dental scrap, but what would I want from sanitation people or hospitals?


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## Emil (Feb 23, 2009)

hosef said:


> If I were going to go those people, what would I ask for? I know I would want the electronics, plating mess-ups, and dental scrap, but what would I want from sanitation people or hospitals?



It's the sanitation dept. that picks up the escrape at the curb in your area. quietly make a deal with them. I did and it works. When they get them ,I get them. I'm on there route, so there at my door, etc. They don't overwhelm me with computers, but they do bring them.

Emil


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## Harold_V (Feb 23, 2009)

GeeDub said:


> Jewelers for bench and polishing sweeps. Avoid karat gold if you are in a competitive area. You margin will be forced too thin by competing offers.


Very bad advice.  

If a small scale refiner can't compete with other refiners on jeweler's wastes, then my more than 20 years of doing just that certainly must have been in my dreams. I always encourage these folks to pursue that source---which puts e scrap to shame. 

There is absolutely _no reason _why a person should not pursue the jewelry industry. It not only offers opportunities for source material, but is very instrumental in establishing a network for selling gold at spot, or above. A person with a wise business plan can make a good living serving nothing *but* the jewelry industry. 

Harold


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## GeeDub (Feb 23, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> If a small scale refiner can't compete with other refiners on jeweler's wastes, then my more than 20 years of doing just that certainly must have been in my dreams. I always encourage these folks to pursue that source---which puts e scrap to shame.


I didn't say don't pursue that source. I didn't say don't pursue the jewelry industry. I didn't say he can't compete. I don't know how you inferred that. That's how *I* made most of my money. 
I said avoid karat gold *if you are in a competitive area*. I assumed this post was for someone just starting out.

A small refiner just starting out, is not going to know how to turn *karat gold* scrap into fine gold shot in 4 1/2 hours. 
In a highly competitive market, he will most probably buy for cash on a stone test. He will not be the _only_ small refiner doing that. He may have dozens of others doing the same thing. 

He will not have enough capital to hedge. If the market is volatile, as it was in my early years, if he doesn't get the gold to market quickly, he will lose money if the market drops. He can wait till it goes back up, but that reduces the number of times he can turn the money. I don't know how it is in your area, but in New York, nobody wants to hear "buy on melt and assay". They bought off the street, many times off the books, in an instant transaction and like to sell the same way (off the books and/or instantly).

If he targets their bench sweeps and polishing sweeps, they don't expect cash on the spot (usually) and he has more time to process. He also has a greater margin to work with. Many times he will be able to do a deal where they agree to split the yield by high margin percentage. About the only way he can get a better margin on karat gold is if he tells them he will return the diamond melee. Then he can have a few days for settlement.

My suggestion was that a small refiner look "outside the box" for other lucrative things where he will have less pressure and more margin. That way he can learn his trade without losing his shirt.

I don't understand why you senior forum members criticize what I say. I have told people *what worked for me.* It worked very well and I made stupid ridiculous money. If you have other ways, fine. If you don't understand my post, or it is ambiguous, ask me and I will clarify.
You know a lot, but you don't know everything. 
-Gee


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## Harold_V (Feb 24, 2009)

GeeDub said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > If a small scale refiner can't compete with other refiners on jeweler's wastes, then my more than 20 years of doing just that certainly must have been in my dreams. I always encourage these folks to pursue that source---which puts e scrap to shame.
> ...


Enough of your double talk. "If you are in a competitive area"? What the hell does that mean? Everything in life has competition----you just have to be adult enough to deal with the issues and resolve them to your advantage. Worked for me. Why can't it work for others?

You clearly stated what you did, which is in print for anyone to read and try to understand. You say don't do it. I did it, and I prospered *because I did it*, with the exact conditions you described. I resent you telling me that it doesn't work when I enjoyed success. You OBVIOUSLY don't know what you're talking about, therefore _you shouldn't be dispensing advice_. 



> A small refiner just starting out, is not going to know how to turn *karat gold* scrap into fine gold shot in 4 1/2 hours.


Nor need he/she do so. That has nothing to do with the equation. 



> In a highly competitive market, he will most probably buy for cash on a stone test. He will not be the _only_ small refiner doing that. He may have dozens of others doing the same thing.


Yes, I can see that in your little world, where you consider your experiences to be the standard by which all others should and will be judged, you see it that way. I didn't, and I don't. I was never confronted with an issue of buying----there are more than enough customers that desire a return of their material in a purified state. Money can be a non-issue. 

I refined longer than you did, with customers over a large geographical area. None were solicited----they came to me for the services I provided. I faced fierce competition, not only in my own town, where there were no fewer than three other options for the consumer of gold, but also from well known refining firms. Contrary to your claims, _*they couldn't compete with me.*_ But then, maybe I have a business ethic you can't or don't understand. 

It's not for me to say, but what you're discussing is in direct opposition to my experiences, so I'm getting the idea that you enjoy seeing your name in print, even if it requires you to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. My experiences are in direct opposition to everything you warn against, yet I had a refining business to sell when I retired. It's time you quit beating that drum. 



> If he targets their bench sweeps and polishing sweeps, they don't expect cash on the spot (usually) and he has more time to process. He also has a greater margin to work with. Many times he will be able to do a deal where they agree to split the yield by high margin percentage. About the only way he can get a better margin on karat gold is if he tells them he will return the diamond melee. Then he can have a few days for settlement.


Utter rubbish! I did none of those things and had a business that grew so large I was unable to keep pace, working seven days/week, and long hours. Do not judge all dogs as being brown in color simply because you once saw a brown dog. It may come as a complete surprise to you, but there are people in business that desire good service--fast and honest return of their product, and a place to purchase gold when they are short. Worked for me, and to perfection. I do not appreciate you telling readers that what I accomplished with ease, is to be avoided. Put your ego in neutral and learn something from those that have had a different experience. 



> My suggestion was that a small refiner look "outside the box" for other lucrative things where he will have less pressure and more margin. That way he can learn his trade without losing his shirt.


Nothing wrong with exploring each and every opportunity, yet you continue to tell me that the exact thing I did, the thing that permitted me to retire at age 54, in relative comfort, should not be considered? You, sir, or not helping these people, you're trying to clone miniature versions of yourself. Perhaps you enjoyed success by not serving your customers as I did mine, but to suggest that others not do so is a disservice. 



> I don't understand why you senior forum members criticize what I say. I have told people *what worked for me.* It worked very well


Yes, I'm sure it did. I heard what you have said, and I understand your claim to have made


> stupid ridiculous money.


 Now it's time for you to climb down from your high horse and understand that those of us that have worked in the refining arena have also had experiences, all of which are perfectly valid as examples. Yours, in no way, should serve as an exclusive example. That's what you you appear to insist on doing. Regardless of what anyone posts that may different from your experience, you want an argument, as if your way is right, all others are wrong. Put your damned attitude in neutral and stop arguing with those of us that have had different, but equally successful experiences to yours. Try to put something in the pot without removing other good and valuable information. 



> If you have other ways, fine. If you don't understand my post, or it is ambiguous, ask me and I will clarify.


No need. I am not confused, nor lost in your information. I see nothing new, nothing that I don't understand, perhaps even better than you do. It is you that appears to need constant clarification. We have operated this forum for two years without your wisdom, which you feel is totally apart and above that which has been offered in the past. If you would like to become an accepted contributor to this forum, if your advice rings true, state your position without detailing that everything others have posted isn't appropriate. As an example, your comments about leaching the waste material I spoke of in a different thread. You obviously don't have a clue what I was processing, nor why, yet you insist that I would have been better off to leach. 

*Leach what, with what? 

How much value would I leave behind should I follow your questionable advice? *

I achieved my goal by doing considerable research from published works from those with knowledge and credentials. I resent your second-guessing my decisions, as I resent the implication that you, somehow, know more about the point in question when you don't even know what it is. 

If you'd like some respect for your *limited* experience, you damned well best start showing some for those of us that were refining gold while you were still messing your diapers. I, for one, find you annoying and boorish.



> You know a lot, but you don't know everything.



But you do! :twisted: 

Like I said, annoying and boorish. 

Harold


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## GeeDub (Feb 25, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> Enough of your double talk. "If you are in a competitive area"? What the hell does that mean?


If you did not understand, all you had to do was ask.


Harold_V said:


> You clearly stated what you did, which is in print for anyone to read and try to understand. You say don't do it.


I stated


> Avoid karat gold *if* you are in a competitive area.


 That is a conditional statement. If the condition does not apply, the statement does not apply. If my grammar or logic is incorrect, please point out why. "Avoid" does not mean do not do. According to my statement as written, it means do not _try_ to do _if this condition applies_.


Harold_V said:


> I resent you telling me that it doesn't work when I enjoyed success.


I didn't tell you it doesn't work. You inferred what was not implied. Which part of


> I didn't say don't pursue the jewelry industry. I didn't say he can't compete. I don't know how you inferred that. That's how I made most of my money.


 didn't you understand?
John stated


> I have read GSP's posts on manufacturers waste, and am interested in pursuing this type of resource.


My statement to avoid karat gold jewelry was in relation to the parameters of his question.


> A small refiner just starting out, is not going to know how to turn *karat gold* scrap into fine gold shot in 4 1/2 hours





Harold_V said:


> Nor need he/she do so. That has nothing to do with the equation.


It has everything to do with it. If he has limited capital, he is best served to get his refined product to market as quickly as possible. He will wish to avoid a market move against him. If he can refine quickly, he will have enough time to acquire material, process it, sell it, and not run himself ragged to make a living. On the presumption that he cannot yet refine quickly, his purchasing decisions must factor in the cost of his time and labor and the volatility of the markets.


Harold_V said:


> > In a highly competitive market, he will most probably buy for cash on a stone test. He will not be the _only_ small refiner doing that. He may have dozens of others doing the same thing.
> 
> 
> Yes, I can see that in your little world, where you consider your experiences to be the standard by which all others should and will be judged, you see it that way.


You don't know a thing about my world. That is because I see no reason to brag about how big and mighty I became. Using 'The Refiner49er's' topic parameters and quotes as a guide, he presently *is in a little world.* How does the fact that you refined "over a large geographical area" Help him? He is not at that stage, as far as I can see.


Harold_V said:


> [I was never confronted with an issue of buying


That is all about you.
Now, about him... 
What did he ask? He clearly stated


> my research leads me to conclude the margin of cost vs yield is often unattractive





> negotiating price on bulk quantities, and anything else that could be helpful.





> it is imparitive to acquire material at the lowest possible cost.


I understood those to be "issues of buying".


Harold_V said:


> [None were solicited----they came to me for the services I provided.


Did you even _read _the post that started this discussion?
He stated


> I am seeking advice * on locating * these sources, * approaching and initiating contacts*


How does the fact that you were established, had a reputation, and people knew of you, help him, in his state get to the point you were at? Why didn't you tell him what you did to get to that stage? That is what he was asking for.


Harold_V said:


> I faced fierce competition, not only in my own town, where there were no fewer than three other options for the consumer of gold, but also from well known refining firms. Contrary to your claims, _*they couldn't compete with me.*_


Three Huh?
I had over Three *Hundred* in the New York Metropolitan area. 
The fact that they couldn't compete with you, as an established refiner, has absolutely nothing to do with the competition he, as a self stated newcomer will encounter,as he tries to get new customers, or win accounts over from other more experienced, better financed refiners.


Harold_V said:


> It's not for me to say, but what you're discussing is in direct opposition to my experiences


Then wouldn't a more appropriate response from you have been, "John, These are the * specific techniques* I was able to use, to successfully deal in karat gold scrap from jewelers against strong competition:" And then list; A), B) etc.? Rather than imperiously declaring in red letters


Harold_V said:


> Very bad advice.


 and then stating


Harold_V said:


> If a small scale refiner can't compete with other refiners on jeweler's wastes...


...Someone please tell me how that is different from the first part of my statement:


> Jewelers for bench and polishing sweeps.


 In my part of the country, those are considered jewelers wastes.
You then went on to state


Harold_V said:


> There is absolutely no reason why a person should not pursue the jewelry industry.


Where did I say anything about the industry? Generally, when one speaks of jewelers, they mean retail jewelers. Not the jewelry manufacturing industry, composed of casters, stampers, assemblers, production houses, etc. If that is the source of this confusion, I apologize. But you could have simply asked "What is your definition of jeweler?" rather than jump on my post.


Harold_V said:


> Utter rubbish! I did none of those things and had a business that grew so large I was unable to keep pace, working seven days/week, and long hours. Do not judge all dogs as being brown in color simply because you once saw a brown dog .


And because you did not do it, he should not do it? Seems to me you are the one having the problem of going from the specific to the general (dog analogy). Nowhere have I ever said *only* do anything. My suggestions are always alternatives and never exclusive or eliminate other ways.


Harold_V said:


> Nothing wrong with exploring each and every opportunity, yet you continue to tell me that the exact thing I did, the thing that permitted me to retire at age 54, in relative comfort, should not be considered?.


Asked and answered.


Harold_V said:


> Yes, I'm sure it did. I heard what you have said, and I understand your claim to have made
> 
> 
> > stupid ridiculous money.
> ...


Show me anywhere I said that any method I used was exclusive and/or was the only way to do something.


Harold_V said:


> That's what you you appear to insist on doing. Regardless of what anyone posts that may different from your experience, you want an argument, as if your way is right, all others are wrong. Put your damned attitude in neutral and stop arguing with those of us that have had different, but equally successful experiences to yours.


Show me where I have advised anyone not to do something. I have given alternative methods, usually based on reading the original post, to determine the state of development the questioner was at. 
I have not been arguing. As each person's circumstances are different I give alternative methods if I believe there is another channel that could be explored. I try to give enough information in my post so that the questioner can decide which method will work best for him in his/her particular situation. If I do not know of another or better way when I read a post, I keep my mouth shut. How many posts of " I agree with this process" does a forum need?
If one states, as John did in the original topic post; "I have just started,... As I begin acquiring materials...I am new at this game," etc., I am going to give advice on how he can start in the business on $500. Were I instead to advise on how to set up a 40,000 sq. ft. refinery, that would be of no help to him. It would just be showing off.


Harold_V said:


> No need. I am not confused, nor lost in your information.
> I see nothing new, nothing that I don't understand,.


I wasn't answering your topic or your question, I was answering his. Because it is not new to you does not mean it is not new to him.


Harold_V said:


> If you would like to become an accepted contributor to this forum, if your advice rings true, state your position without detailing that everything others have posted isn't appropriate. As an example, your comments about leaching the waste material I spoke of in a different thread. You obviously don't have a clue what I was processing, nor why, yet you insist that I would have been better off to leach.


Ok, lets touch on that different thread. Let's start by reading the post.


Harold_V said:


> GeeDub said:
> 
> 
> > Harold_V said:
> ...


1)If he is using that tiny little book as a reference (I know the book) I presume he is not an expert.
2) I tell you point blank that I don't understand your post. I give you a reference to how I processed so you can hopefully see why I do not understand your post.
3) You respond by saying use the proper flux. If he is using that book as a reference, * he does not know * the proper flux. You do not offer one. Fluxing is an art as well as a science. You have people on this forum who are jewelers, refiners, platers, miners with ore, etc. Each one of these will need a different "proper flux" for his materials. None the less, * in the post I agree with your basic premise.* 
4) We discuss collectors.
5) You pick a fight, and say you didn't consider it a waste of time. However, I never said it was a waste of time. I said "my time was better spent elsewhere... while I do other things". This is called multi-tasking. It is considered a more efficient use of time.
6) You state you didn't miss my point. 
But you did. 
I did not say do not do it, There was never a doubt of it being worthwhile, it was a statement of my belief that if you were able to do 2 things at once you would get more production. Perhaps it was my mistake by not stating "at the same time". I thought that was implied.
7) You go on about how I did not know anything about what you were processing. 
Does it matter? No matter what you are processing, if you can do 2 things at once, thereby getting twice as much done, how is that bad?
All you had to say was "That process would not have worked on this particular material." that would have been a logical end of the discussion.


Harold_V said:


> I achieved my goal by doing considerable research from published works from those with knowledge and credentials. I resent your second-guessing my decisions, as I resent the implication that you, somehow, know more about the point in question when you don't even know what it is.


I did not second guess anything. In the case of the above mentioned post, I supplied alternative methods that may or may not work better than yours, depending on the refiners situation. In his particular case, knowing his reference book, I did not think he would come upon the "proper flux" in his situation before he had accumulated lots of slag with metal.


Harold_V said:


> Like I said, annoying and boorish. Harold


Not worth further response.

In summary; I answer questions posed at the level I perceive them to be at. If some one states he is a beginner, I will propose technology that fits his level. What I know that is pertinent to a larger more established refiner, is not germaine to his question and will not help him at that stage. So I don't get into it.

As a final note: If you can factually prove me wrong on anything I have posted...Please Do So! I am always open to new knowledge.


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## jamthe3 (Feb 25, 2009)

I'm sorry to intrude, but THAT'S ENOUGH!!

This has now become a "back and forth" that should be handled privately. Take the high road. I'm lost enough without reading all this, hell I'm practically begging people to help me pick parts to build a de-plating cell---that's how lost I am and have no problem at all checking my ego.

NOW, for the record: Geedub, I truly enjoy reading your posts---straight up---but, this last one shouldn't really be here. The only purpose for it is to "defend" your position publicly. Probably because you feel Harold overreacted & picked on and embarrassed you publicly.

I don't have the knowledge (on most Forum subjects at least) to know if that's the case or not.

WHAT I do know, however, is that this guy when he does "over react" its because he's worried about a guy like me getting either incorrect info or possibly only easily misconstrued info and then harming himself or others accidentally. He answers all my questions....and let me tell you, some of them are REALLY stupid....and somehow manages to do it in a way I can learn from, not feel like the ignorant dufus I know I currently am and not lose interest...moving forward towards a goal.

So please, I'm asking ya'all nicely...put this crap to a rest; being the selfish person I am, I really enjoy the forum more when ya'alls experience and knowledge is better spent wasting your time answering all my ridiculously stupid, amateur questions. Because, I've somehow managed to find a heavenly hobby here....over a year of intellectual stimuli readind post after post with the promise of physical experience in screwing up process after process learning practical techniques.

So I'm really gonna get pissed and disheartened if ANYONE stays away for even a day due to angry responses & ruins my enjoyment and learning experience before I even produce ONE damn nugget!!

As I said, I'm selfish. Sorry for the tirade.

John


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## Harold_V (Feb 25, 2009)

jamthe3 said:


> I'm sorry to intrude, but THAT'S ENOUGH!!


Yes, it is. *Note my lack of response.* I am finished with discussing any and all matters with that individual. I have far more important things to tend to. 

I am also locking this thread. 

Harold


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