# cellphone scraps



## arthur kierski (Oct 25, 2013)

was afraid to write this topic because it goes against many principles writen and experienced in our forum-

this process was done by me and gave good results--so i decided to write about it.

i took cellphone scrap containing,tiny black chips,(the other black chips were separated manually),solder ,smd s and mlccs------i incinerated these scraps in order to liberate the gold in the tiny chips---then i took 500grams of this material and added to an ar solution (1500cc hcl +500cc hno3 +1000ccof h2o)---i left this material for 12hours --After that done ,i diluted the ar solution to 10 liters(3liters became 10)---tested with stanous chloride (gave gold-pink-violet color)filtered to pick the undissolved scrapd and to this 10liters i added 10grams of meta bisulfite , stirred the solution and left to precipitate the gold----to the remaining scrap i added nh4oh and to the bluish liquid added hcl to obtain the agcl present-- after taking the precipitated gold from the 10liters i added irom powder and precipitated cu-pd ---this cu pd powder was trated with ar and from it i precipitated pd with dmg----results 0,75grams au,0,25grams pd, and 10grams ag------regards 
Arthur


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## niteliteone (Oct 25, 2013)

Do you have any pictures of what you actually processed :?: 
I am having trouble trying to figure out what you processed.


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## arthur kierski (Oct 25, 2013)

no pictures ----sorry
If you scrapp a cellphone board and sieve the material,the sieved material is what iam talking about---in sieving, the material that will not pass in the sieve are the black chips with gold in it----this chips are dealt with by Partnors method------
Arthur


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## Pantherlikher (Oct 25, 2013)

Why right into AR?
Are there no silver to be a possible problem? Lead as well? Tin?
Why not start with Nitric and then to AR?

Did you put everything in the sieve in there? or just the tiny legged chips?

B.S.


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## arthur kierski (Oct 26, 2013)

i used ar first,instead of nitric to avoid the formation of gelly tin(metastanic acid) and making almost impossible to filtrate the solution-----by the way,to the 3liters of ar,before diluting to 10 lliters,i added 100cc of h2so4,to form lead sulfate----then it was easy to filtrate the 10 litres and precipitate the gold with metabisulfite--- the silver instead of silver nitrate,((AS idid not use nitric first)became silver chloride that remained with the lead sulfate in the filter paper---------

arthur


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## arthur kierski (Oct 26, 2013)

cellphone boards have tiny black chips and a bit larger chips--these chips do not have legs--they are soldered to the boards------they are the richest kind of chips---- as i said,i separated manually the larger chips because they wont pass throught the sieves holes------what passed througt the hole ,was the material that i incinerated and then did the described process in my first thread
Arthur


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## solar_plasma (Oct 26, 2013)

> ---results 0,75grams au,0,25grams pd, and 10grams ag-



At the first glance that seems a bit low to me. It would be interesting what your yield will be in the end. I would assume, that there are some more values in the solids. Can you verify if there is colloidal or complexed gold still bound in solution?

edit: thought about it, this yield is much better than I would ever have believed, when the basemetals aren't removed first. But is it pure Au,or a dirty blend with Cu, since you have used a LOT of smb?


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## arthur kierski (Oct 26, 2013)

Solar Plasma,the results are very good because as you said they came from the ar without a base metal treatment----the solids that was left in the filter was treated with nh4oh to dissolve the agcl, and then the solids was treated again with ar to find more au and pd because i deduced that these pms was cemented in the first ar treatment. -----it gave more gold and pd ----i do not have the yeald yet-------------

note : to the liquid from the first ar,where the gold was precipitated with metabisulfite,iron was added and the precipitate metals was treated wth nitric and more pd was found--------------------------------------------------
note: the gold precipitated with the smb was light brown and quite pure because these scraps did not have much copper---

what surprises me in the experience is that pms was recuperated from scrap containing base metals
i did this experience because i have 200kilos of this scrap from 3years of cellphone extractions---and have to find away to recuperate the pms from these 200kilos

regards
Arthur


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## solar_plasma (Oct 27, 2013)

> note : to the liquid from the first ar,where the gold was precipitated with metabisulfite,iron was added and the precipitate metals was treated wth nitric and more pd was found



A valuable example for that a mess must not be a mess, when somebody knows what he is doing and purposefully knows to handle the side effects. Good job. ...in my opinion.

I just wonder, if the yield had been higher, if you had removed tin at first.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 27, 2013)

I just wanted to remember of butcher's post. Ofcourse you know it:

Butcher:


> If the solution is clean from base metals, clean from oils and carbonous trash, nothing in solution like tin, dirt, and oils that can form gold colloids in solution (*that by the way we cannot test for with stannous chloride)*, nothing re-oxidizing the precipitated gold back into solution, basically nothing but clean gold in solution, we can basically precipitate every last drop of it, ........................
> 
> But if we have much base metals, dirty solution, colloids, oxidizers, *we could basically throw out most all of our gold into our waste bucket without even knowing that is what is happening.*


http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12900#p128992


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## solar_plasma (Oct 27, 2013)

I have not tried it yet with colloidal gold, but normally colloids make the beam of a laser pointer visible. I think this might be a good test, if it works. I will try this soon.

(I have still my very first AR solution, mabye it is FULLLLL of gold :lol: )


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## arthur kierski (Oct 27, 2013)

just a question: if you have an ar solution which you precipitated gold with smb----and after that,you added iron powder to precipitate other metals(tin,colloidal gold,pd, pb),the eventual colloidal gold present would be in the precipitated metals----Right? 

if this is right,the coloidal gold problem ,stops to be a problem----

regards
Arthur


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## FrugalRefiner (Oct 27, 2013)

The problem with colloidal gold is that it's already reduced to a metal, but it is so fine it remains suspended in the liquid. If you precipitate all the other metals, I can see where they _might_ drag down some of the gold, but that's just a guess and I wouldn't necessarily count on it being complete.

Dave


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## solar_plasma (Oct 27, 2013)

> -and after that,you added iron powder to precipitate other metals(tin,colloidal gold,pd, pb),the eventual colloidal gold present would be in the precipitated metals----Right?



As far as I believe to know, colloids are colloidal not only because the particles are on an atomic scale, but also because they cling to other molecyles, which prevent them from coagulating. Fx gold to SnO2 (cassius gold purpure) or Fe++ to tannin (old fashioned ink). It is pretty much like emulsions like milk or soap/oil. So it will take very long for them to sink,if they sink at all, since there are turbulences in a liquid because of temperature differences (like in an old fashioned density heating system) and maybe entrophy (like smoke in air) may also influence them. ....better I leave this to the chemists and physicians :lol: 

Another problem could be unknown complexes which could act strange...I am first started reading about complexes ....hey, now I know what a ligand is :lol: 

I have no clue if the amounts bound as colloidals or complexes are significant, but reading this forum they seem to be capable of being significant.

edit: and I agree with Dave


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## butcher (Oct 27, 2013)

The way I understand it is these atoms of gold colloids have charges that repel each other and will keep each other moving in solution, the colloids will not settle, the gold is already reduced so it cannot be reduced, or tested for with the stannous chloride test, the gold in solution is so fine it will go through filters, basically it is a real problem if your intention is to recover the gold.

Heating the colloids in a strong acid (like sulfuric acid), concentrating the solution can help to break the colloid, this may help.


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## arthur kierski (Oct 27, 2013)

Well,i will put the liquid ,that might have colloidal gold in a waste bucket and wait for a possible result .
i will try to heat with h2so4 some of the liquid as Butcher sugested ,and see what happens.
if i obtain any result,i will write a thread to you
regards 
Arthur

ps: question:collodial gold solutions do not have a pink-violate color?


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## ericrm (Oct 27, 2013)

i dont know what use it can be for poeple like you who already know more than me but from my own experiment coloidal gold in excess of oxidiser will just dissolve, the oxidiser will react with sncl2 to become sncl4 or something like that... (sorry im not sure if it sncl4 or something else.....) ,same thing with iron sulfate or ferrous chloride/ferric chloride, they will change and stop being precipitant with enuf oxydiser.... i dont know the details....


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## solar_plasma (Oct 28, 2013)

> ps: question:collodial gold solutions do not have a pink-violate color?



at least after cassius' method, yes, it should not wonder me,if this colour could be hidden in the other colours in the liquid



> will change and stop being precipitant with enuf oxydiser..



makes sense to me (at least with Cl2), but in excess oxidizer you can evt. still not test them, driving off the oxidizer will again let them react with reducers, I would think.....though SnCl4 at least in water decomposes to SnO2 and HCl. I know SnO2 it is very hard do dissolve in hot HCl...this I have tried. Wiki says,there will form H2{SnCl6].

I n my simple mind I would expect most of those reactions are in equilibrium, which again makes it harder to understand, what will happen under certain circumstances.

I don't know. It just makes clear, that there are many possibilities of unwanted reactions, which are worth to investigate further - if no one can provide facts.

My first choice would be to listen to butcher's experienced advice.


> Heating the colloids in a strong acid (like sulfuric acid), concentrating the solution can help to break the colloid, this may help.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 28, 2013)

> ..though SnCl4 at least in water decomposes to SnO2 and HCl. I know SnO2 it is very hard do dissolve in hot HCl...this I have tried. Wiki says,there will form H2[SnCl6].



That makes me think, that in HCl/chlorox SnCl2 will not occur, but this H2[SnCl6] looks to me like a trouble maker.


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## butcher (Oct 28, 2013)

What good is it to put the colloidal gold back into solution if you cannot separate the problem that causes the colloid to form, (where it will form again)?

If you cannot break the colloid, often the solution is to evaporate to crystals, remove chlorides, rinse and dry the gold powder, and then incinerate the powders red hot, cool, and wash out the problem with a boil in HCl, and water washes, then you can put the gold back into solution without the previous problem.

Hokes book page 171 and 172, will shed more light on the subject.


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## ericrm (Oct 28, 2013)

solar_plasma said:


> makes sense to me (at least with Cl2), but in excess oxidizer you can evt. still not test them, driving off the oxidizer will again let them react with reducers, I would think.....



no your missing the point the oxidiser react with the precipitant to make another salt ,it wont be be precipitant anymore... stannous chloride to stannic chloride, ferrous chloride to ferric chloride.... 



butcher said:


> What good is it to put the colloidal gold back into solution if you cannot separate the problem that causes the colloid to form, (where it will form again)?



i have added stannous chloride in enuf quantity in gold bearing AR to make sure it wont dissolve back, than i added nitric acid until everything was back to normal... even at room temperature after theyr was no sign of coloid , it is not because the oxidiser keep the gold dissolved it is because the oxidiser react with the precipitant....


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## solar_plasma (Oct 28, 2013)

Sn + 2HCl --> SnCl2 + H2O

*BUT* we use HCl/chlorox or AR, so:

SnCl2+Cl2 --> SnCl4
Sn+2Cl2 --> SnCl4
SnCl2+HCl+HNO3 --heating--> SnCl4 (equation not complete)

after dillution:
SnCl4+2H2O -exotherm--> SnO2 + 4HCl
at the end:
SnO2+HCl --> H2[SnCl6] + 2H2O

H2[SnCl6] crystalizes out of the solution or forms metal compounds like M+2[SnCl6] or M++[SnCl6]

(sources: wiki eng/ger, Römpp Chemielexikon, Inorganic Chemistry - Holleman/Wiberg)

This I would say is the reason why we never get purple gold colloid from a dirty solution, unless we take a drop of the solution and test it with a pervert excess of SnCl2 from our stannous test solution. Nevertheless the gold will be bound to complexes.


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## butcher (Oct 28, 2013)

Sn + 2HCl --> SnCl2 + H2O
Stannous chloride:
Sn(s) + 2HCl(aq) --> SnCl2(aq) + H2 
(g)

BUT we use HCl/chlorox or AR, so:

SnCl2+Cl2 --> SnCl4
Sn+2Cl2 --> SnCl4
SnCl2+HCl+HNO3 --heating--> SnCl4 (equation not complete)
In aqua regia tin forms stannic chloride:
3Sn + 4HNO3 + 12HCl --> NO(g) + 8H3O + SnCl4
(when excess HCl present it can also form chlorostannic acid H2SnCl6 in solution)


after dillution:
SnCl4+2H2O -exotherm--> SnO2 + 4HCl
at the end:
SnO2+HCl --> H2[SnCl6] + 2H2O

Here I have to disagree, stannic oxide (SnO2)
would not form in the acid environment, after dilution of the aqua regia solution. I believe first after denoxing the solution the reaction above moves back towards the left:
SnCl4 --> SnCl2 + Cl2
then on dilution the stannous chloride in solution can form an hydroxide of tin with water (along with the stannous chloride, as we are still in a highly acidic environment), but as acidic as our solution is I believe this reaction would stay pretty much to the left as stannous chloride in solution:
4SnCl2 +2H2O --> Sn(OH)4 + 4HCl
and
SnCl2 + H2O --> Sn(OH)Cl +HCl
for this to occur I think is basically impossible in this highly acidic environment of even dilute aqua regia, so I believe the reaction would stay to the left leaving us with stannous chloride in our diluted aqua regia ( if gold was involved in the solution, the stannous would reduce the gold to colloidal gold, re-oxidizing could put the gold back into solution, but would not get rid of the tin or its problems, later we would be right back here; trying to get out gold back out of this colloidal solution).

(with air or oxygen upon dilution and standing over time the stannous chloride can also form this hydroxide along with the stannic chloride):
6SnCl2 + O2 + 2H2O --> 2SnCl4 + 4Sn(OH)Cl

For us to form the insoluble stannic oxide SnO2, we would have to evaporate the solution to powders, and oxidize the tin powders.


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## solar_plasma (Oct 28, 2013)

Thank you Butcher!

The first one has been a print error - ofcourse I meant H2

the HCl+HNO3 line I could only find incomplete on wiki - thanks again



> Here I have to disagree, stannic oxide (SnO2)
> would not form in the acid environment, after dilution of the aqua regia solution. I believe first after denoxing the solution the reaction above moves back towards the left:
> SnCl4 --> SnCl2 + Cl2
> then on dilution the stannous chloride in solution can form an hydroxide of tin with water (along with the stannous chloride, as we are still in a highly acidic environment), but as acidic as our solution is I believe this reaction would stay pretty much to the left as stannous chloride in solution:
> ...



So, I guessed right with what I wrote before: a lot of equilibria


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## arthur kierski (Oct 29, 2013)

JM-Johnson Matthey----have a material(kind of fibre),is called smopex----this product recuperates precious metals from solutions---probably even colloidal gold------------

if someone is interested,please enter JM site-----very interesting
regards
Arthur


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## niteliteone (Oct 29, 2013)

arthur kierski said:


> JM-Johnson Matthey----have a material(kind of fibre),is called smopex----this product recuperates precious metals from solutions---probably even colloidal gold------------
> 
> if someone is interested,please enter JM site-----very interesting
> regards
> Arthur


Here is a write up on the "Sompex" material. It sounds interesting.
http://www.scavengingtechnologies.com/userfiles/files/SMOPEX-301%28TM%29%20an%20effective%20replacement%20for%20Triphenylphosphine.pdf

It has also been mentioned here on the forum by the manufacturer.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=16948&start=0


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