# HCL/Bleech problems HELP!!



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

Hey guys,

I started my gold recovery process about 3 days ago, and I am using the acid/ bleach method. I let the gold plated cards, fingers and processers, sit inside the solution for about 2-3 hrs. When I came back to check on progress I saw that the gold plated materials were stripped and gone and the copper under the gold remained. The solution however, had this black mud in it. 

I read a forum that said that the black mud was gold and some other metals, and to make sure that it was just gold I needed to make a 2:1 HCL and bleach solution again and let it sit overnight.

*I did this, and am letting it dry now. Is this black mud really the gold, and if not how do i recover my gold???*

Any help on this would be great, as I didn’t see a post about this. I’m not to technical so go easy on me 

Thanks and happy hunting,


----------



## Moo (Dec 21, 2012)

You put all this in the one batch and used acid and bleach rather then acid and peroxide?


----------



## Geo (Dec 21, 2012)

study the AP process more. you left out a major process. hcl/Cl is a refining process. you cant refine gold from electronics until you recover the gold from the base metal first. dissolve the other metals first and the dissolve the gold.


----------



## gold4mike (Dec 21, 2012)

As long as you have undissolved base metals in with your solution the gold will continue to cement back out onto them.


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

Ok, so what is the mud that I have? 
I can see the copper on the pins and nothing on eles. Are you guys saying that the gold is somewhere else?

Where can i find the complete AP process to follow?


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

Moo said:


> You put all this in the one batch and used acid and bleach rather then acid and peroxide?



Yes, I read a different fourm before i came here. and they said to make a solution of Acid/Cl and bring it to a slow boil. Which I did, and I got this black mud.

Let me try this from the top with a step by step of what i did.

I started a solution of HCL + H202 placed on low heat, in which i placed my gold plated peaces. From there I noticed the gold plating was gone and all i could see was the copper attached to the boards and black stuff floting around in the solution.

I then added CLOROX to the solution to ensure all other metals were gone.

Can anyone tell me what went wrong or point me to the right area.


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

how big of a solution do you have?
if small enuf i would suggest you to tranfer all you actual liquid and black powder in a separate beaker.than rince you material with water and also put that in the baker , than finish dissolving what you have with hcl/cl and put it in the same beaker as the 2 other.

you could dissolve evrything now but you take the risck to alow you gold to be cement on the copper between 2 fiberplate and than you will definitively loose that gold... by removing a much gold as you can now , you will loose gold but less...

if big use a bucket...


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

ericrm said:


> how big of a solution do you have?
> if small enuf i would suggest you to tranfer all you actual liquid and black powder in a separate beaker.than rince you material with water and also put that in the baker , than finish dissolving what you have with hcl/cl and put it in the same beaker as the 2 other.
> 
> you could dissolve evrything now but you take the risck to alow you gold to be cement on the copper between 2 fiberplate and than you will definitively loose that gold... by removing a much gold as you can now , you will loose gold but less...
> ...



Thanks, 

So is the black power the gold that i need to transfer and rince? I have the black power in coffie filters atm and have been rincing it.


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

the problem is that you also have black powder floting in solution it is just not visualy noticable. and yes that black powder is probaly your gold


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

ericrm said:


> the problem is that you also have black powder floting in solution it is just not visualy noticable. and yes that black powder is probaly your gold



Thats true I do... So what I hve just done is take the Power and place it in a place where it can dry. I will now take the other materials that i have and wash them with water and make more Acid/Cl solution as you recomended to get the rest of the gold off. Then what do you recommend?


----------



## Geo (Dec 21, 2012)

when you place electronics in hcl, whether you add H2O2 or Cl hardly makes a difference unless you keep adding the oxidizer continuously.in my opinion, what you seen was tin in solder dissolving and cementing out on the gold plating making it look like bare copper. that is a simplified explanation as gold does not cement tin from solution but trust me, that is whats happening. most,if not all, of your gold is still where it started out unless you dissolved the copper underneath the gold. when you add an oxidizer, it starts reacting with the metal thats the most reactive first and works its way down the scale to gold. any gold that did dissolve when you first added the oxidizer cemented back out on whatever base metal was exposed. remove a piece of your material and rinse it back into your solution. use a cloth to rub a contact spot that had gold plating and see if you find a gold color under the dark powder.

visit here and follow all the links. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=6873#6873

also here is the AP process explained : http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12914


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

Geo said:


> when you place electronics in hcl, whether you add H2O2 or Cl hardly makes a difference unless you keep adding the oxidizer continuously.in my opinion, what you seen was tin in solder dissolving and cementing out on the gold plating making it look like bare copper. that is a simplified explanation as gold does not cement tin from solution but trust me, that is whats happening. most,if not all, of your gold is still where it started out unless you dissolved the copper underneath the gold. when you add an oxidizer, it starts reacting with the metal thats the most reactive first and works its way down the scale to gold. any gold that did dissolve when you first added the oxidizer cemented back out on whatever base metal was exposed. remove a piece of your material and rinse it back into your solution. use a cloth to rub a contact spot that had gold plating and see if you find a gold color under the dark powder.
> 
> visit here and follow all the links. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=6873#6873
> 
> also here is the AP process explained : http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12914



Thanks, after your post i checked and about 5% of the peaces have gold still on them. I scratched the copper on the other peaces and nothing was under them. So im gussing the gold is indeed the black powder i have.


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

confidentrf said:


> ericrm said:
> 
> 
> > the problem is that you also have black powder floting in solution it is just not visualy noticable. and yes that black powder is probaly your gold
> ...



lol this is not exactly what i said 

if geo is right and your only at the beginning (all the finger are there but are cover with a black subtance) do as geo said

if you already have dissolved finger (you dont have metal or only copper or nickel metal, where theyr is suposed to have gold metal)

remove the solution where you finger are and keep it on the side.
rince your finger vigouresly with water (do not trow that water) and put that water with the solution you removed before.

at this point you should have a filter with black powder(gold) + a green solution(gold bearing)+ a lighter green/blue (gold bearing)solution.

now you have finger with nothing
if it was me i would just add anew batch of hcl and oxydizer to dissolve everything that is still on your finger (to my opinion you already have screwed you batch so your just saving "les meubles"...)(you will endup with another gold bearing solution)
or you can just make a new batch of hydrocloric acid/hydrogene peroxide 3% and treat the rest like normal finger.

a picture could be good too

*edited to give more detail*


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

ericrm said:


> confidentrf said:
> 
> 
> > ericrm said:
> ...



ok ill post a pic gimmy a sec


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

The forst IMG has all of the gold gone and most of the copper. when i scratched the copper no gold was under it.

the sound card had gold under the green coating and is not there any more.

the second picture is a CPU that has no gold on it just copper. I did scratch it as well and nothing underneeth it. 


The third picture is of wet Dust that was at the bottom of the solution that the other two (cpu, sound card) we in.


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

damn that powder isnt gold , that powder is pretty much a mix of everything....

do not do anything that i told you ,it wont be of any help
did you have only 1 cpu and card in the acid?


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

ericrm said:


> damn that powder isnt gold , that powder is pretty much a mix of everything....
> 
> do not do anything that i told you ,it wont be of any help
> did you have only 1 cpu and card in the acid?



I had a mound of the gold fingers from alot of pci cards, and about 16 cpus in the solution and alot of other gold plated stuff.....

The funny thing is, i took the power to get tested at the pawn shop that gives me the cpus and he said it may have gold in it and something eles. or it may be pure gold.

but m a rookie and i woldnt know.

The other fingers and cpus look the same way... no gold only copper


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

to be honest all you have is a big mess...

as geo said when metal form salt in acidic solution the more reactive metal will replace the less reactive metal in the salt(cementing)look at reactivity serie in google .
ex: gold chloride + copper metal will push the gold out of solution as a metalic gold and do copper chloride as a salt

but what you have done i way worst than that
just to make it simpler for me let say...
you have on the cpu , finger and board gold silver copper lead tin nickel cobalt aluminium iron 
so you have disolved a mix of those metal,wich in turn have cemented on some of those same metal,refraining the acid to atack some of those metal.
the bad part is i saw iron on your pic so your powder is made of everything under iron in the reactivity serie...

now as i told before those board have a copper layer under the solder mask that will trap your cementing gold

you just bought yourself a good lesson ,remove base metal first :| 

i think your dog just died ... for the amount of time ,work and acid involve you will not be in the + side 

if you see gold on the finger and cpu, or if you see chip remove them and put them on the side for the time you learn...


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

ericrm said:


> to be honest all you have is a big mess...
> 
> as geo said when metal form salt in acidic solution the more reactive metal will replace the less reactive metal in the salt(cementing)look at reactivity serie in google .
> ex: gold chloride + copper metal will push the gold out of solution as a metalic gold and do copper chloride as a salt
> ...



*Cry, 

Thanks for your help... ill try harder next time.


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

ericrm said:


> to be honest all you have is a big mess...
> 
> as geo said when metal form salt in acidic solution the more reactive metal will replace the less reactive metal in the salt(cementing)look at reactivity serie in google .
> ex: gold chloride + copper metal will push the gold out of solution as a metalic gold and do copper chloride as a salt
> ...


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

do not try harder 
read the forum until you understand what just happened... oh and welcome :mrgreen:


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

also the pin from your cpu look complete maybe you didnt loss the gold on them , put them on the side for now ,who know maybe you will be lucky...


----------



## Geo (Dec 21, 2012)

you didnt lose any of the gold that was there. put everything away in sturdy plastic containers until you know what you are doing. you did dissolve some gold on your material. when i first posted, you hadnt explained that you boiled the material in AP before you added Cl. all the gold that was there is still there, its just in a form you dont recognized any more.


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

geo what can he do more?
the only thing he can do now,from my point of view, is incinerate(for maybe 2-3 grams of gold at best) ...
do you see a chemical option that i dont see? could be usufull for mysself if you have one :mrgreen:


----------



## Geo (Dec 21, 2012)

most of the grey mass appears to be tin and/or lead. incinerate and hot hcl bath for the grey powder and finish AP for the rest. after incineration, the tin and lead can be dissolved in hot hcl.decant while hot as soon as everything settles. there will still be a fair amount of tin and lead so rinse well, several times with hot water. dissolve all the solids left and wait for everything to settle. draw off the clear solution leaving the white residue in the container.dilute and allow to settle again. lead will settle out as thin needle like crystals. draw off solution again and precipitate.

thats a real mess. thats what happens when you try to dissolve gold with tin and lead present.


----------



## ericrm (Dec 21, 2012)

i have my reserve on what geo said and what the outcome will be, but for 2-3 g i must have been out of my mind to think it is not worth the try
i hope you will post the result


----------



## g_axelsson (Dec 21, 2012)

confidentrf,

one of the mistakes you made was to put full boards with components on them into acid. The PCI-board on the picture have a lot of components. There is a lot about how to depopulate circuit boards, search the forum.

The principle in getting gold from e-scrap, ore or other objects is basically two stages. Stage one is to recover the gold, concentrating it by removing everything that isn't gold. The second stage is to refine it when you have it in a high enough concentration. What methods you chose to use in each stage is depending on what type of material, how much you have, what your situation is and some other factors.

To treat scrap with acid dissolves base metals which could be washed away, leaving the thin gold foils behind. This is stage one.
Incineration burns away plastic and carbon, leaving base metals and gold behind. This is stage one.
Panning for gold washes away lighter material until only gold and heavy black sand remains. This is stage one.
Removing contacts from circuit boards and pulling the pins is a recovery process, stage one.

After stage one, recovering the gold you have a gold concentrate that you can treat chemically with a couple of different methods. Some batches could be combined.

Dissolving the gold in HCl/Cl and after filtration dropping it out back as pure gold is stage 2.
Dissolving the gold in AR and after filtration dropping it out back as pure gold is stage 2.
Melting the gold and blowing chlorine gas through it to drive out the impurities is refining, stage 2.
Inquarting the gold with silver and dissolving silver in nitric acid is a refining stage.

Still, the types of impurities could affect the choice of method used in the refining stage, but you have much more freedom to choose if the recovery is done properly.

Don't feel too bad about the mess you made. It didn't sound like there were a lot of value to start with and the dose of reality that you got will make you realize that it isn't so easy to get that gold from computers, if it was then everyone would be doing it. Anyhow, we have a saying here, your gold is never lost, only misplaced. It won't go anywhere while you study.
On the forum you can learn how to do it and do it safely. If you just study it well, collect some scrap of one type and then concentrate on doing that good before testing the next process then you will master the art of gold refining.

I will give you one advice that the other failed to mention (I believe). Make some stannous chloride for testing gold in solution. You also need some gold chloride to see that your testing solution is working. Use that to test your liquids that you got. If the test is negative then you don't need to save the liquid, only save the solids that drops out of the liquid.
I don't think you have any gold in your solutions with that much base metals still left. The oxidizer is probably long gone and the HCl have continued to digest the base metals so any gold that cemented out is either very loose or already in the gray mud. Testing will tell you and you don't need to guess.

Right now I'm working my way through some batches I started two years ago and just left in the jars. It's taken more time that if I done it right at the start, but I've pulled 10 grams of gold from my old batches this far. :mrgreen: 

Welcome to the forum, I hope you will stay and join us here. 8) 

/Göran


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 21, 2012)

Thanks guys,

That was the first batch I did i put less gold in it to do a test, the other 5 batches came out all the same with alot more of the mud... 

Can i do the process just described by tourching all 6 batches at the same time or do you recommend doing them all seperate?


----------



## Geo (Dec 21, 2012)

confidentrf said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> That was the first batch I did i put less gold in it to do a test, the other 5 batches came out all the same with alot more of the mud...
> 
> Can i do the process just described by tourching all 6 batches at the same time or do you recommend doing them all seperate?



do not do anything until you understand what you are doing. i was answering a hypothetical question from Eric, not giving advice. i already advised you to put everything away and study some more. if i walk you through this process, then that means i or someone else will have to walk you through the next. this is dangerous chemicals and the fumes just dont smell bad, it can kill you.


----------



## Pantherlikher (Dec 22, 2012)

Ok... first hello and welcome to The site to learn everything and anything about "Collecting" and "refinning" Precicious Metals of all types.

I too did something like you have many years ago after buying someone's book and doing alittle ready... Off and running I was and did get something out of it.. 1 hellova great lesson.... LEARN MORE!

Put all liquid into a bucket and place where it can "SAFELY" evapotate down, not dry.
Put ALL solids into cantainers the way they are. Seperate if you want and cover.

Now... find and read Hoke's book start to finish. It's free here on the forum but you must look for it. I refuse to hand it to you. If you are serious about doing this, you will definately find it here. Learn the basics and you will learn what you did, and how to collect those PMs and then refine them the right way.

BS.
Searching for that hidden search box in the top right corner...


----------



## bswartzwelder (Dec 22, 2012)

Reading and understanding Hoke's book is probably the smartest thing you could ever do. THE GOLD IS NOT IMPORTANT. Let me say that again. THE GOLD IS NOT IMPORTANT. What is important is that you learn how dangerous what you are about to attempt is. It is DEADLY. probably more deadly than playing with a loaded gun. The chemicals can injure you, your family, friends, and even neighbors who happen to live down wind from you. Safety cannot be overstressed. Start out with something simple like recovering fingers from circuit boards. When you have that process down, then and only then should you work your way up to the things that are more complex. I have been on the forum reading since October 2011. Just before that, I bought the Shor kit and was knowledgable enough (in my own mind) to be an expert at recovery and refining. Sadly, I lost all the gold that I started with at that time. Since then, I have been reading. Reading Hoke, reading the forum, reading just about anything I could find on gold recovery and refining. It has only been in the last month that I did my first batch of finger contacts. 

So, to repeat what others have said, put everything away and start reading. Once you think you know what you are doing, stop and reread as much as you can about what you are about to do. It will be time well spent and just may save your life or the lives of others around you. From the time we were born, we all started out knowing nothing. Not a single person on this forum was born knowing anything about gold recovery or refining. Take the free advice and above all, be safe.


----------



## confidentrf (Dec 22, 2012)

bswartzwelder said:


> Reading and understanding Hoke's book is probably the smartest thing you could ever do. THE GOLD IS NOT IMPORTANT. Let me say that again. THE GOLD IS NOT IMPORTANT. What is important is that you learn how dangerous what you are about to attempt is. It is DEADLY. probably more deadly than playing with a loaded gun. The chemicals can injure you, your family, friends, and even neighbors who happen to live down wind from you. Safety cannot be overstressed. Start out with something simple like recovering fingers from circuit boards. When you have that process down, then and only then should you work your way up to the things that are more complex. I have been on the forum reading since October 2011. Just before that, I bought the Shor kit and was knowledgable enough (in my own mind) to be an expert at recovery and refining. Sadly, I lost all the gold that I started with at that time. Since then, I have been reading. Reading Hoke, reading the forum, reading just about anything I could find on gold recovery and refining. It has only been in the last month that I did my first batch of finger contacts.
> 
> So, to repeat what others have said, put everything away and start reading. Once you think you know what you are doing, stop and reread as much as you can about what you are about to do. It will be time well spent and just may save your life or the lives of others around you. From the time we were born, we all started out knowing nothing. Not a single person on this forum was born knowing anything about gold recovery or refining. Take the free advice and above all, be safe.



Ok and thanks guys i will start reading the book tonight.


----------



## nickvc (Dec 23, 2012)

confidentrf said:


> bswartzwelder said:
> 
> 
> > Reading and understanding Hoke's book is probably the smartest thing you could ever do. THE GOLD IS NOT IMPORTANT. Let me say that again. THE GOLD IS NOT IMPORTANT. What is important is that you learn how dangerous what you are about to attempt is. It is DEADLY. probably more deadly than playing with a loaded gun. The chemicals can injure you, your family, friends, and even neighbors who happen to live down wind from you. Safety cannot be overstressed. Start out with something simple like recovering fingers from circuit boards. When you have that process down, then and only then should you work your way up to the things that are more complex. I have been on the forum reading since October 2011. Just before that, I bought the Shor kit and was knowledgable enough (in my own mind) to be an expert at recovery and refining. Sadly, I lost all the gold that I started with at that time. Since then, I have been reading. Reading Hoke, reading the forum, reading just about anything I could find on gold recovery and refining. It has only been in the last month that I did my first batch of finger contacts.
> ...




Well done that's the best thing you could do. The guys are trying to help you and you will understand that as your knowledge increases which I'm afraid does take time and a lot of reading but the end result will be worth the effort when you hold that first gold button that you refined in your hand.
This is a huge subject which few if anyone fully understands and we all learn new things almost daily, that's the one beauty of the whole refining business, there's always someone who knows more about certain aspects of it than you do and the more you learn the more you realise you will never know it all.


----------



## Madraykin (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm very new here and I'd just like to corroborate what these guys are saying. I'm using reverse plating and working with 98% concentrated sulfuric acid and that stuff scares me something fierce. I ran a small batch a couple weeks ago but messed something up somewhere along the way. Fortunately I did not have any sort of disaster, but I've been humbled enough to take many steps back and cozy up to Hoke until I get it. I'm now less concerned about the gold than I am about safety and handling these chemicals with more confidence and certainty. It took me a while to understand these guys really do want to help us newcomers, it's just a simple fact that the best way they can get us off to a great start is by pointing us to a book that goes into very, very great detail. Heed the warnings about the chemicals you're using. MSDS sheets aren't a bad thing to have close by. Know how to neutralize bases and acids and why it's best to wash first with lots of water BEFORE neutralizing. True, you may already know this, but I'm more likely repeating it for my own good.


----------



## butcher (Dec 24, 2012)

The more we learn.
The more we learn how much more, we still need to learn.
:lol:


----------



## confidentrf (Jan 9, 2013)

UPDATE!!!

Greetings all and happy New Year!
After reading Hokes book and doing a study, I have made it to one of the last steps in the process of refining gold with the AP process. 
I corrected the errors that I made before my first post. 

Refined steps made

1.pens/fingers went into warm AP bath
2. solution was strained off with coffee filters
3. pens/fingers were added to HCL/CL bath to dissolve gold
4. solution was again filtered off to yield a very yellow solution with a hint of green.
5. solution was then tested for gold content which was positive.

*!6. I added SMB to the solution which turned it the color of the pictures below… Any help from this point would be greatly appreciated.!*



NO gold formed even after solution tested positive


----------



## resabed01 (Jan 9, 2013)

confidentrf said:


> UPDATE!!!
> 
> Greetings all and happy New Year!
> After reading Hokes book and doing a study, I have made it to one of the last steps in the process of refining gold with the AP process.
> ...




After dissolving the gold with HCL/CL and filtering you needed to heat the solution to liberate any excess chlorine from the solution. SMB won't drop gold if chlorine is still in solution. it's best to use very little bleach to start when dissolving gold and have some patience. That will keep the chlorine level in the solution low which make liberating it after easier.

So add a step...

4a. Heat solution to rid of excess chlorine


----------



## confidentrf (Jan 9, 2013)

how long should the solution be heated for and at what temp?

should it be a slow boil or till vapers?


----------



## gold4mike (Jan 9, 2013)

I usually apply heat for 30 to 60 minutes, just below boiling.

If you boil you lose a little gold each time a bubble pops at the surface.


----------



## confidentrf (Jan 9, 2013)

after simmering for an hour... I Let the solution cool and it still fizzes when adding the SMB.

Placing back on heat for another .5 hr.


----------



## confidentrf (Jan 9, 2013)

OK UPDATE!!!

I went to chesk the solution to see if it still fizzed when adding SMB.

Resoult is... it dosent

I see some brown powder at the bottum of the solution, however the solution is gloden brown.

Should i add more SMB to the solution after already adding some? 

and

should it be be added as is ( salt crystals) or mixed with H20 also what happens if the solution remains the same color? I realize SMB should be added acording to the ratio of gold.

thanks,


----------



## Pantherlikher (Jan 9, 2013)

Patience.
I wouldn't add any more then a teaspoon of SMB as you didn't sound like you had much gold to begin with.
Just let it sit for a day or so.

BS.
Like a kid on Christmas day waiting for that 1st present...


----------

