# 3LBS of un populated gold plated boards



## archerytech1 (Dec 16, 2014)

Hello all.

I'm new to the forum and am in need of maybe a suggestion on my plan or maybe just the needed confidence to go ahead as planned.

I have read Hokes online book as well as countless vids and read some on this forum but still a little gun shy on my next go-round.
I have successfully processed ram fingers several times now and the hands on has been invaluable and taught me a few things to tweak my future finger processing. 

I'll give a list of the things and chems that I have and then ask for a little guidance on my next project.

I have a safe place to do this, good Pyrex beakers, protection equip, glass rods and such, hot plate (haven't used it). Basically all of the necessary hardware. 

Chems I have currently
SMB,Urea,Peroxide, Clorox, Muriatic, Nitric, 
So far during fingers processing I have only used AP,SMB, Bleach and Peroxide. I have not used the Nitric or Urea and results have been fine.

So for my upcoming run I have a little over 3 pounds of these double sided boards shown in the pictures. Both sides are all plated as shown in the scratch marks in the pic. They are clean and never been populated so that's great right? To remove the green mask my plan is to boil them in some Lye water and brush it off. Sound good so far?

Next my plan is to treat them just like fingers and use AP to free up the gold and then filter wash filter wash then Muriatic+ bleach to dissolve into solution. After in solution I will filter then SMB then wash and melt. Basically the same as I have done my fingers. I just need the confidence boost. I think the same process will work for these as the fingers as far as I can tell/know. Am I right?

I'm still really new to this and don't want to mess around with 3 lbs of these thin boards because I think I could have a decent yield. 

If you think I'm good to go please let me know. This will be my biggest run to date and I'm just a bit worried.

I would appreciate the help. And look forward to the day my confidence is high enough to offer my knowledge to someone some day on the subject.





[/url][/img]



[/url][/img]


----------



## yar (Dec 16, 2014)

Welcome to the forum. Soubds like you are on your way with the AP process. What concerns me is the use of lye. Your plan for the boards sounds ok but you will be generating some waste solution using lye. Do you have a plan for your waste and do you know how to store it and treat it once you are done removing the mask off the boards?

Lye is dangerous and can cause instant blindness if it gets in your eyes. A full face shield would be a good idea at the minimum and a good pair of long chemical resistant gloves. 

What I would do is cut the boards into three or four pieces and just go the AP route with them. The plating is most likely not as thick as you think. Try a test with a few before using lye and see what happens. It will also avoid you dealing with a caustic chemical and the waste it will produce. 
There is a good post by 4Metals on waste treatment for any you generate. I would also recommend doing more studying. Start in the safety section. Good luck and be safe!!!


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 16, 2014)

yar said:


> Welcome to the forum. Soubds like you are on your way with the AP process. What concerns me is the use of lye. Your plan for the boards sounds ok but you will be generating some waste solution using lye. Do you have a plan for your waste and do you know how to store it and treat it once you are done removing the mask off the boards?
> 
> Lye is dangerous and can cause instant blindness if it gets in your eyes. A full face shield would be a good idea at the minimum and a good pair of long chemical resistant gloves.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for your response.
I do have eye protection handy and sure will use it. The plan for the green masks is to use a half gallon or so of boiling water with a tablespoon of lye (sorry but I don't know the weight of 1 tablespoon of Lye crystals or I would have used that instead of tablespoon) and let the boards boil in it a bit for a bit to brush off the mask. Just so happens my bathtub is very slow to drain and the dilute solution to the drain sounded fine to me. Am I wrong on that? 

About the yield. My A/P gold finger runs so far have been small to get my feet wet. Ran 1/2 pound of clean close fingers and about the same again on another run. So this run with the 3 pounds of double sided boards will be a big yield for me lol. From what you can see in the pictures what would your guess be? I know there are a lot of variables but just a guess from more experienced people would be neat to see. I know people say they get anywhere from 1.5-3 grams per pound of fingers but these being fully plated on both sides will probably be more correct? 

Again, thank you very much for your response. It really does mean a lot to me.


----------



## yar (Dec 16, 2014)

DO NOT pour anything down your bathtub drain!!! Even though it is a diluted solution you are adding boards into it and removing material that is going into solution. Do you know if any other metals are mixing with your solutions? No one here pours anything anywhere before it is properly treated. From your reaponse I will ask you to put everything away, forget what you saw on a video and if you want to pursue recovery and refining beginning studying the forum and read Hokes book. 
There is a free download i. A few members tags lines. Use the search feature on top, it is easy to find.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

yar said:


> DO NOT pour anything down your bathtub drain!!! Even though it is a diluted solution you are adding boards into it and removing material that is going into solution. Do you know if any other metals are mixing with your solutions? No one here pours anything anywhere before it is properly treated. From your reaponse I will ask you to put everything away, forget what you saw on a video and if you want to pursue recovery and refining beginning studying the forum and read Hokes book.
> There is a free download i. A few members tags lines. Use the search feature on top, it is easy to find.




WOW.

Didn't expect that and obviously it's a good thing that I asked right? Well, I will surely read more on the subject before I proceed and that's a promise. I did read quite a bit and Hoke was included as mentioned in my 1st post but I must have missed something important because I did not grasp obviously that they Lye would bring anything dangerous into solution from these boards. Like I said, I will be sure to do everything correctly and now because I asked in my post I found thanks to you a fault in my plan. There is nothing for me to "put away" at this point as that's why I asked about my plan from more experienced folks before I used or did anything new. So I need to fix or replace the Lye plan. No big deal at this point right? Thanks for letting me know about the fault. I will fix it.


----------



## Shark (Dec 17, 2014)

There are some really good methods around the forum that can give you more insight into what you wish do. Everything from stripping the boards to dealing with your waste without causing problems. There are some chemical suggestions as well. I noticed you listed urea, most here do not advocate it's use, although historically it has been used. Today there are better ways known and can be found all across the forums here. Spend some time reading here, and you can find almost anything refining related you can imagine. Although Hoke's book delves into the refining quite well, there was no electronic waste to speak of in that era, and the forums are where you will find a wealth of knowledge in that area. There are many professional refiners here, and some like me who just find it interesting and a good way to exercise the brain. 

Welcome to the forum.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

Shark said:


> There are some really good methods around the forum that can give you more insight into what you wish do. Everything from stripping the boards to dealing with your waste without causing problems. There are some chemical suggestions as well. I noticed you listed urea, most here do not advocate it's use, although historically it has been used. Today there are better ways known and can be found all across the forums here. Spend some time reading here, and you can find almost anything refining related you can imagine. Although Hoke's book delves into the refining quite well, there was no electronic waste to speak of in that era, and the forums are where you will find a wealth of knowledge in that area. There are many professional refiners here, and some like me who just find it interesting and a good way to exercise the brain.
> 
> Welcome to the forum.




NO NO NO lol

I have not used UREA. It is in the list of chems that I have but notice I left it out of my processes so far. The reason why I have not used it is because of reading and finding out that there are better ways. I have also done without using the Nitric. That list was just a list what I have on hand.
Thanks for the welcome Shark! And yea, the Lye may not be the best solution as I'm starting to realize so on that part I will keep reading. 

Thanks again.


----------



## maynman1751 (Dec 17, 2014)

If you decide to proceed with using the lye, you can label the waste properly and store it for use. It can be used to neutralize waste acid, which you will undoubtedly have. Like has been mentioned, study up on waste disposal and safety measures........two very important aspects of refining!!!!!

CAUTION: Lye is some very nasty stuff. probably worse than most acids that we work with!


----------



## ericrm (Dec 17, 2014)

maynman1751 said:


> CAUTION: Lye is some very nasty stuff. probably worse than most acids that we work with!



this is true and very important, potassium/sodium hydroxide,concentrated sulfuric acid, 30% hydrogene peroxide will make hole in your skin, a tiny little drop flying to your eye as the potential to make you loose an eye(not exagerating), i hate using a full face mask but i do it each time with those three chemical.


----------



## necromancer (Dec 17, 2014)

do not follow "Moose Scraper" suggestions on youtube & scrub off the solder mask with a toothbrush with no face / eye protection / body

Not Smart


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

I typed out a large response to all of you and then it vanished after I clicked submit lol. 

I'll retype it later today. Thank you all for the replies.


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 17, 2014)

If you're using the CA Gen2 board style, you may want to change it. Take a look at the Board Style, User Control Panel post in the Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum thread.

Dave


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

FrugalRefiner said:


> If you're using the CA Gen2 board style, you may want to change it. Take a look at the Board Style, User Control Panel post in the Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum thread.
> 
> Dave



Hello Dave. Thank you. I changed it after reading about it. I was in fact using CA Gen2.


----------



## rickbb (Dec 17, 2014)

Laser Steve has posted a good tutorial on removing the mask. Warm to hot, (NOT boiling hot), in lye with time and gentle scrubbing with a soft brush will take it off.

Then do the AP process as normal.

As everyone has said, lye can be nasty and cause more eye/skin damage than acids.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

Ok. So from what I can tell so far is that a Lye water bath may be the way to go on these boards but safety for myself and safely storing the Lye water for later use with acids is key. 
That leads me to my next question. Is a lot of the problem with disposal of diluted Lye water after treating these virgin boards the copper that the lye may leach?

I won't need to dispose of the used water for quite some time as I now know it can be used for treating acids later but I do want to know if I'm on the right track there with the copper ions.

As your responses keep coming in at the same time I'm reading other posts and such things do seem to come together. Thanks


----------



## rickbb (Dec 17, 2014)

You can raise the PH of the lye solution by small, slow additions of HCL. When the PH gets to around 7 you will have salt water. Then filter out the solids.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

rickbb said:


> Laser Steve has posted a good tutorial on removing the mask. Warm to hot, (NOT boiling hot), in lye with time and gentle scrubbing with a soft brush will take it off.
> 
> Then do the AP process as normal.
> 
> As everyone has said, lye can be nasty and cause more eye/skin damage than acids.




Very good video by Lazersteve! very much more controlled than my Lye approach would have been if I hadn't joined this forum.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

rickbb said:


> You can raise the PH of the lye solution by small, slow additions of HCL. When the PH gets to around 7 you will have salt water. Then filter out the solids.




I'm finding that I am or will be in need of a few more chems and testing supplies than I originally thought. A few that I want to get sooner than later are stannous test materials and decent PH test supplies.

Are there any places you fellows would recommend I look for those things? Thanks


----------



## FrugalRefiner (Dec 17, 2014)

archerytech1 said:


> rickbb said:
> 
> 
> > You can raise the PH of the lye solution by small, slow additions of HCL. When the PH gets to around 7 you will have salt water. Then filter out the solids.
> ...


I use tin fishing sinkers to make my stannous. Many folks use 95 %tin/5% antimony solder. Both work.

You can find pH test paper on FeePayPal.

You can use your lye solution to raise the pH of your stock pot solution when it's time to neutralize it and dispose of it.

If you do some searches, you'll find all the details you'll need.

Dave


----------



## rickbb (Dec 17, 2014)

Actually I meant to say you can LOWER the PH of the lye by adding HCL.

My bad.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

So... While I wait to run the whole batch of cards because of the Lye issue I'm working out I am running a small test.

In a 250ml beaker I cut 2 small 1 inch or so pieces off of 1 card to see how the AP works on them. The one side of the board still has the mask at this point. As this is just a test to see if the AP is the route with these boards

I used it at a 3.5:1 ratio and placed it on a warm hotplate to help speed the test up. Do you all approve so far? 

Within 30 seconds of adding the Peroxide the solution was a slight but bright yellow. Now 5-10 minutes later it's a nice but lighter emerald green as I believe it should be. I'm swishing it around a bit every few minutes see the changes taking place.
Update. Now at 30-45 minutes the color is a nice darker emerald and there are some small flakes in the solution. The surface of the larger plated areas look like the plate will come off any time. Looking good as far as I can tell.

Now, I cannot find my darned micrometer to tell you guys the thickness of the boards but I will say that the boards are very very slightly over half the thickness of a penny. If I put 2 boards together it almost matches the thickness of a penny perfectly. So, I have exactly 3 lbs of these boards and they are 3 inches by 4 inches almost exactly. There are 82 of them fully plated on both sides and even plated inside all of the screw holes. 

So what kind of range would you more experienced fellas expect in yield? A low and high depending on unknown factors would be neat to see from you guys. Eventually I'm hoping for 3-5gr per pound. Is that maybe way low or high? I don't have the experience for a very good figure.

Thanks again for all of the help so far guys.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 17, 2014)

archerytech1 said:


> So... While I wait to run the whole batch of cards because of the Lye issue I'm working out I am running a small test.
> 
> In a 250ml beaker I cut 2 small 1 inch or so pieces off of 1 card to see how the AP works on them. The one side of the board still has the mask at this point. As this is just a test to see if the AP is the route with these boards
> 
> ...




Ok. Well it seems that the AP will do just fine with these boards. The small test is done and all gold is floating in solution. Nice size foils and clean white board. Now to be sure I understand what and how to use and store the Lye water before I proceed with cleaning the mask from the other side of all of the boards..


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 18, 2014)

You mention 3.5:1 ratio. Are you talking HCl:H2O2 in that ratio?


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 18, 2014)

spaceships said:


> You mention 3.5:1 ratio. Are you talking HCl:H2O2 in that ratio?




Yes, I'm sorry. I should have stated that. 3.5 parts HCl to 1 part H202. I guess it's always best to say exactly what your talking about.


----------



## patnor1011 (Dec 18, 2014)

I think that heat is not a way to go with AP. I always thought that heat will decompose H2O2, I would rather use air bubbler than heat.


----------



## Anonymous (Dec 18, 2014)

No need to be sorry. 

Maybe I have misread but are you using AP for recovery here? If so then 3.5:1 isn't the correct mix. You only need a dash of H2O2 to do the job. It starts the reaction. High levels of H2O2 can result in gold dissolved in the solution.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 18, 2014)

spaceships said:


> No need to be sorry.
> 
> Maybe I have misread but are you using AP for recovery here? If so then 3.5:1 isn't the correct mix. You only need a dash of H2O2 to do the job. It starts the reaction. High levels of H2O2 can result in gold dissolved in the solution.




Yea, I added a bit much on purpose honestly. I wanted to test just a few sq inches of the boards to be sure the A/P route would be OK on the boards. I really figured it would since there have never been any components on them but was willing to sacrifice a few sq inches. I thought it may put all of the gold into solution honestly but surprisingly I think it left most all of it behind. I will have to test it and see.

I think that when I do run the whole batch of boards I'm going to just use like a 20:1 ratio or something and add a fish bubbler. 

Thanks for replying though. I did make the too much H202 mistake once in my very first attempt a few months back. Hey, wheres all the gold films lol. 
Too many youtube vids teaching people to use way too much. One of the youtubers though did recommend Hokes book and that was awesome. Honestly reading Hokes book is why I'm now here on this forum. It made me realize that youtube may not be the place to start.


----------



## archerytech1 (Dec 18, 2014)

patnor1011 said:


> I think that heat is not a way to go with AP. I always thought that heat will decompose H2O2, I would rather use air bubbler than heat.




Yea, I'm sure your right. I just used 2 square inches of boards as a test. It worked. Probably put a little gold into solution but it did clean the boards in just a few hours and leave lots of nice looking and sized foils.

When I do run the whole batch I will be using a bubbler and 2 buckets for sure.

The test was to be sure the A/P would work OK on the boards the way they were. I had concerns from a mistake a while back....I'm a newbie.


----------

