# Buying from Dentists



## Anonymous (Jul 27, 2008)

Anyone gone through the trouble of contacting dentists for their leftovers? Do they usually already have refiners they sell to? Any chance a guy refining in his garage can get these scraps at a bargain?


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2008)

Dental scrap leans towards the best possible scrap you can corner, and has historically been recycled by dentists with their supply house. That's not to say they all do. They don't receive as much as it's worth----so if you can gain the confidence of yours, you may have a chance of obtaining his wastes. You'd have to understand how to handle porentially hazardous wastes safely----the risk of certain diseases is present---and you must deal with mercury. Remember, there's a fair amount of platinum and palladium in dental alloys, so you'd have to understand the procedure for recovering those metals, not just silver and gold. 

Your very best chance of success in refining is to establish a working relationship with the jewelry trade. Theirs is an ongoing need for refining, unlike the typcial dentist, who rarely makes dental appliances these days. That task is accomplished by labs, so the dentist isn't required to spend the additional time making them. 

I wish you good fortune. I made a living for more than ten years doing exactly what I described, but refined, overall, for more than 20 years. It was a wonderful hobby. 

Harold

edit: corrected comment by replacing the word jeweler with the word dentist. Sorry, folks. Lost my head in the heat of posting!


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## Anonymous (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks Harold. I live down here on the Texas/Mexico border. Lots of bad eating habits down here. Dentists are busy. Still, though, many of the folks travel across the river to cheap dentists in MX.

So, since the dentists rarely make their own appliances these days, is it worth it to try to contact the labs? 

What about when a edentist has to remove a cap or any other appliance? I guess this is the material I would go after?

Thanks Again.


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2008)

I would encourage you to pursue all avenues. It's hard to say what arrangements any of these people may have. 

The one thing to consider is that many people don't willingly leave extracted teeth and appliances behind if they contain precious metals. Over the years I collected many of them from folks that took them home instead of leaving them with the dentist. The one that stands out is the one I got from a friend, who considered the bridge to be worth a thousand dollars, because that's what he paid to have it made. It took some careful wording to have him understand that his thousand dollar appliance was worth far less in precious metals, considering there's a large amount of labor involved in making and fitting such things. 

Recently an old friend gave me a gold crown. I told him I no longer refined, but he wanted me to have it anyway. That is yet another example of folks not leaving the values with the dentist. 

Regards a lab that exclusively makes appliances-----I would think that they would be least likely to allow their wastes to leave their facility due to the volume that they produce. They are likely well in tune with the value, and are already working closely with the supplier---generally one of the major refiners------but I say nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'd certainly inquire. You might find the owner may be interested in a cash deal, or perhaps interested in the return of a portion of the refined values. Best to ask what it would take to make them happy. 

Keep in mind, also, that precious metals have been broadly replaced with high temperature alloys, with the recent price hikes reducing even farther the use of these extremely expensive materials. You're most likely to encounter valueless materials these days. 

For sure, I encourage you to pursue jewelers over all others. They were my bread and butter, and I'm sure you'll find that to be true in your case. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks Harold. I appreciate the advice.

Did you ever place ads looking to buy scrap jewelry?


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## Harold_V (Jul 28, 2008)

Longhorn said:


> Did you ever place ads looking to buy scrap jewelry?


No, and I don't think it's a good idea. 

When I first started refining, I talked way too much about what I was doing. It resulted in being burglarized a couple times, then again when I moved to my last location. There's more than enough morons in this world that think that they will hit a retirement plan when they find such places. I kept a low profile once I wised up. I didn't advertise, ever, and wasn't even listed in the phone book as a refiner. I relied on word of mouth alone. 

Do a good job, and treat customers as fairly as you'd like to be treated and you can't keep them away. That was my motto, and it worked well for me, although over the course of more than ten years, I lost a half dozen customers that thought they had been cheated. You can't avoid that if the customer is not well versed on what they have, and what to expect in return. Once the material is processed, you have nothing to prove your position, so it's a good idea if you receive anything that's questionable that you contact the owner and discuss the possibilities before processing. It can keep you out of trouble. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks.

How much did you usually pay for scrap gold jewelry from customers? What about jeweler's scraps?


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## Harold_V (Jul 29, 2008)

I rarely bought once I got established. I refined on a percentage basis, which makes it real easy to collect your fee. By returning the amount due the owner, you are in control at all times. 

Early on, my sources for gold were second hand stores, where I purchased old eye glass frames, plus anything of value that I could find. At that time, gold was tightly controlled and there was no ready market for scrap, plus it was valued under $100/ounce, and no one cared. I bought eye glass frames by the dozens for 25¢/pair or less. Often only 10¢. There's at least one grain of gold in the typical pair of 1/10-12KGF frames, and if you happen to land a pair with a karat gold bridge, they contain much more. The karat gold bridge was found on ladies glasses, and was not abundant. 

There were times when I'd find an optician that had a huge store of old frames that had been discarded. Several times I processed them on a percentage basis. It was a good deal for both me and the owner. 

Rarely did I buy jewelry, although I sometimes found some at a garage sale. Many people used to consider class rings less than jewelry. I recall buying one from a gal for 25¢. She didn't have it out, but when I asked if she had any jewelry or class rings, she recalled the one she got from a long gone boyfriend. I did not set the price. She asked for 25¢ and I gave it. I also gave $200 for a service for 12 set of sterling silver flatware in new condition. The seller set the price, I did not. 

If I was to offer something for gold, I offered a price that would permit a profit, but was, otherwise, a reasonable offer. However, if, in my travels, I found anyone that placed little to no value on an item and had it priced accordingly, it was not my responsibility to teach them how wrong they were. 

The best scenario is that you do not buy gold at all. If you can establish a service, you can process on a percentage basis. It took me very little time to realize where the gold was once I started refining. A distant acquaintance was a prospector. I accumulated more gold in one year than he ever found in his lifetime. There is no better way to acquire gold that to offer a refining service, assuming it becomes successful. I was fortunate in that I was already refining when restrictions were lifted back in '75. There were NO small refiners at that point in time, so it was dead easy to offer local refining service. While I didn't solicit any refining, my ex brother-in-law kept company with two different jewelers, which got the ball rolling for me. 

Harold


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## 61 silverman (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi everyone I just picked up these discs for making GOLD CROWN's when I tested them for gold content using touch stone and acid's I came up with 12kt, Would this be correct for dental gold..


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## Harold_V (Oct 24, 2008)

In my estimation, no, it isn't characteristic of dental gold. You would expect a much higher gold content (I'd expect 16K or greater), plus some of the platinum group metals. 

I'm also concerned about the material being in disc form. Gold I was familiar with came as squares or rectangles, generallly 1 dwt. in size. That configuration is easier to make, using nothing more than a shear. I see no reason for a seller of bulk metals intended for melting to create discs. There is considerable waste when doing so, waste that would otherwise be sold if the material was shorn instead of punched. 

If you are positive that the material was used by dentists, and have a clue where it was made, you can usually acquire their metals catalog which should detail the various alloys they market. There's a huge array of alloys available, each for a specific purpose. 

Harold


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## LeftyTheBandit (Oct 24, 2008)

Harold;

What percentage is fair to charge a good customer for refining?


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## Harold_V (Oct 24, 2008)

Fair?

Dunno. :wink: 

You see many indications that companies operate on as little as 2%. I don't believe it------although in practice you may find that it's true. But, try buying gold from them. It's always at inflated prices, over spot. 

I handled all transactions for my customers, putting seller and buyer together. No fee for the service----that was part of what I did. Seller got spot for his gold, which was a good deal for him. Buyer paid spot for the gold, which was a good deal for him. Everyone came out on top, and I kept my customers because of the service I provided, both in refining and the fringe benefits that were not available to others. Gold purchases for spot, for example. 

As a refiner, my fee was 10% for processing karat gold. It was higher for processing low grade waste materials, polishing wastes, floor sweeps, filters, gold filled, I charged 15%. I was more than busy. If the yield exceeded ten ounces when processing karat gold, I reduced my fee according to the yield. Often down to 8%. 

No other fees. No hidden costs. I took my fee as a percentage---so the customer never had to put out a dime. I even picked up and delivered, with a smile! That way you get on a personal level with your customers. They like that. They learn your demeanor and come to trust you with their values, even allowing you to roam around in the "back room" where most of the jewelers work. 

Carpets fetched 50%. They're a lot of work. 

YMMV.

Harold


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## 61 silverman (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi All 
Harold would this pic do any good on identifing content.. The material came from a Italian Dentist Retired,.. Ther was a total of 257 grams of material..I got it on FEEBAY...LOOK at the auction if you would like the item number is 270280477476 Please note that I read this post after I had allready purchased the items,, I have been testing the bridges and such with the break test.. So far only 1 piece has broken into pieces instead of flattening out without much tearing , get's work hardened from the hammer, There are some of the pieces I think of not being of value,,Hoke says I need too get some of the unknown material into solution and test with Stannous chloride..which remindes me:: looking around through my DAD's stuff he had for some reason a 1/2 INGOT of PURE TIN on the ingot it says 
DIVISION PURE 
TING AND TIN
MPANY


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## qst42know (Oct 24, 2008)

I did not find a website or email address but you could write them. A phone call would likely be too expensive. I would suspect standard karat gold test acid results would be skewed by dental alloys.

http://www.suvison.com/sc_wiw_bis.asp?id=9258


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## 61 silverman (Oct 25, 2008)

Thank You for the help..

MARK


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## viacin (Nov 16, 2008)

Harold_V said:


> Keep in mind, also, that precious metals have been broadly replaced with high temperature alloys, with the recent price hikes reducing even farther the use of these extremely expensive materials. You're most likely to encounter valueless materials these days.



Harold, I wonder what karat dental scrap one would find. For some reason I am under the impression that most gold dental scrap is in the 22-24K range, although I can find no quote anywhere to justify this. I'm sure I'm wrong, but I can't find any actual gold percentages. Perhaps you could set me straight?

Also, what about the silver and PMG content?


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## qst42know (Nov 16, 2008)

I'm not responding for Harold, but dental gold is generally referred to as 16K gold.


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## Lou (Nov 16, 2008)

Viacin, you're thinking of high noble. A couple months ago, I bought 4 or 5 ounces of 24K gold that was made by Degussa. I also bought a few ounces of a high noble alloy containing 9% platinum and 3% palladium, balance gold. I think I actually took a few photos with the idea of showing it to the forum. I'll have to find them next time I go through the camera.

Most typically though, they're 16K.

Lou


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## Harold_V (Nov 16, 2008)

viacin said:


> Harold_V said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind, also, that precious metals have been broadly replaced with high temperature alloys, with the recent price hikes reducing even farther the use of these extremely expensive materials. You're most likely to encounter valueless materials these days.
> ...



The dental industry has used a myriad of alloys-----so there is no rule of thumb that is reliable. When I refined I had a chart published by one of the refineries that described the various alloys that were available, some of which had an extremely low percentage of gold. It's entirely possible such a chart might still be available, but you'd have no way of knowing which alloy is used in any given circumstance, nor from where the alloy came. Gold impact fillings, which are exceedingly rare, especially today, can be nearly pure gold. I don't recall ever receiving one for processing, unlike a myriad of partials and crowns that were cast not only in gold alloy, but occasionally platinum alloys alone. 

The one thing you can count on with dental alloys is for them to almost always contain at least one of the platinum group metals. Palladium and platinum are used to toughen the gold, which gives it the properties that make the use of gold so desirable in dental work. 



> Also, what about the silver and PMG content?


Can't be generalized, as you may have deducted by my previous comments. 

Dental amalgam runs just under 50% silver, that I do recall. You must deal with the mercury in order to extract the values, however. 

On that subject, anyone that has the good fortune to acquire crowns, handle them carefully. It's not uncommon for crowns to be applied over teeth that were previously repaired with silver amalgam. Melting the crown will subject you to mercury vapors. 

A good policy to pursue is to smash the crown on an anvil. That not only exposes the amalgam, but eliminates the tooth. You don't want to experience the smell of a burning tooth. 

It's a good idea to avoid including the silver amalgam in the process, if for no other reason beyond the mercury content, the silver contains enough tin to make filtration of the gold chloride solution difficult, if not impossible. 

Harold


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## LaurenceOs (Jun 7, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> Dental scrap leans towards the best possible scrap you can corner, and has historically been recycled by dentists with their supply house. That's not to say they all do. They don't receive as much as it's worth----so if you can gain the confidence of yours, you may have a chance of obtaining his wastes. You'd have to understand how to handle porentially hazardous wastes safely----the risk of certain diseases is present---and you must deal with mercury. Remember, there's a fair amount of platinum and palladium in dental alloys, so you'd have to understand the procedure for recovering those metals, not just silver and gold.
> 
> Your very best chance of success in refining is to establish a working relationship with the jewelry trade. Theirs is an ongoing need for refining, unlike the typcial dentist, who rarely makes dental appliances these days. That task is accomplished by labs, so the dentist isn't required to spend the additional time making them.
> 
> ...


Oh score, my girlfriends a dental nurse and i have two other friends that are dental nurses in different surgeries!


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## peaksilver2012 (Jun 14, 2009)

Harold_V said:


> Fair?
> 
> As a refiner, my fee was 10% for processing karat gold. It was higher for processing low grade waste materials, polishing wastes, floor sweeps, filters, gold filled, I charged 15%. I was more than busy. If the yield exceeded ten ounces when processing karat gold, I reduced my fee according to the yield. Often down to 8%.
> 
> ...



So just to confirm, your % fee was collected as a cash payment at the time of delivery based on daily spot price? And was that figure determined at the beginning of the transaction or at settlement when the job was done?

Hope you understand the question-I'm trying to be succinct so as not to bore anyone with long-winded queries.

Thanks Harold. I appreciate your willingness to share your refining expertise as well as your extensive knowledge of the business end of PM recovery.

Oh, and what is YMMV? lol

Preston


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## leavemealone (Jun 14, 2009)

> Oh, and what is YMMV? lol



rofl.....this is one thats taking a while to catch on.It has 2 different meanings(and both could be used here.lol)but I am sure he means it as,"Your method may vary".The other one is,your mileage may vary.
Johnny


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## Harold_V (Jun 14, 2009)

peaksilver2012 said:


> So just to confirm, your % fee was collected as a cash payment at the time of delivery based on daily spot price? And was that figure determined at the beginning of the transaction or at settlement when the job was done?


I can see how that may not be clear. 

My fee was collected at the time of settlement, in the way of withholding the prescribed percentage in metal. In order to convert to cash, I would sell my personal gold as required. 

There is method to that madness. Not all people are honest. Were I to trust others to pay the bill after the fact, there is no doubt in my mind, I would have lost money to a few. As it was, I lost (well under an ounce) when I advanced gold to one of my irregular customers, who didn't have enough waste to cover the advance, then conveniently forgot who I was. 



> Oh, and what is YMMV?



Johnny covered it, but my intended meaning is "your mileage may vary", which is a broad way to look at potential results of any endeavor. In the hopes of not sounding like I'm bragging, my refining operation was successful because of me----and my chosen methods of operation. It was sold twice when I retired, with the first party doing serious damage to the customer base, and the second owner killing the operation within a few months. The legacy I created was destroyed by others, who were interested in the profits, but not the work involved. 

I was fortunate. I retained an attorney for the sale. I received full payment. 

Harold


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## Anonymous (Jul 14, 2009)

61 silverman said:


> Hi everyone I just picked up these discs for making GOLD CROWN's when I tested them for gold content using touch stone and acid's I came up with 12kt, Would this be correct for dental gold..


These were disks used in a technique to make ceramic crowns,thus the gold content may be low but there may be platinum or palladium alloyed into them to raise the melting temp above 950 deg cent so that one could bond porcelain onto the gold .I think it was called "Sunrise" system.


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## 61 silverman (Jul 21, 2009)

Colin ; Thank you for the info on the dental discs. I have not begun processing them yet, so all info on these much appreciated...


Mark


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## 61 silverman (Jan 23, 2010)

update on the dental scrap that these discs came with.. There was 240 grams total weight in this Ebay lot..

now here is a group of Q-tip test results !!!Pt Au Pd
A bit over 120 grams of White Dental Scrap so far.


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## Palladium (Jul 19, 2012)




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