# Silver powder



## eaglewings35 (Jan 20, 2017)

Hey guys,
I have asked one of the experts, Manuel, and am awaiting his reply but I thought I would put it here to see if any others have experienced this problem.
Any way, I have been stripping green industrial X-Ray film in a sodium thiosulfate solution to the point of saturation.
The next step is adding HCl to convert the suspended silver to silver chloride.
Now I add iron (nails) to convert the silver chloride to silver metal ( grey concrete color).
I then (after it has all converted) I do several HCl washes, to get rid of the iron.
Next I do many boiling water rinses. Then I put it in the oven to dry it.
Okay, so far, all is going as planned.
When I pull it out of the oven, it has turned black. When you try and melt it, it smokes and smells bad. Also, the melted silver is really ugly, and has a thick black layer that is hard to get rid of.
It is Lazer Steve's, and my thoughts that this is the protein emulsion from the film.
Does anyone know how to get rid of this emulsion so it doesn't cause these problems?

Thanks to all !!!
Kerry


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## justinhcase (Jan 20, 2017)

eaglewings35 said:


> Hey guys,
> I have asked one of the experts, Manuel, and am awaiting his reply but I thought I would put it here to see if any others have experienced this problem.
> Any way, I have been stripping green industrial X-Ray film in a sodium thiosulfate solution to the point of saturation.
> The next step is adding HCl to convert the suspended silver to silver chloride.
> ...


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 20, 2017)

Is there a way to get rid of the gelatin? That is my problem.
I don't have a setup to do any digestion or dissolving. (Plus no nitric or access to nitric)
There has to be a way to either eliminate, neutralize, solidify, remove, or dissolve the gelatin.
I've read the bleach would attack to gelatin, but what would that do to my process?
When would I add the bleach?
This has gotten my goat, because I should have very clean pure silver, but instead I have 
a major problem.
I sent some to Lazer Steve, and he had to melt it, and remelt it several times, and it still
wasn't as pure as it should have been.
Has any others experienced this problem?


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## justinhcase (Jan 20, 2017)

eaglewings35 said:


> Is there a way to get rid of the gelatin? That is my problem.
> I don't have a setup to do any digestion or dissolving. (Plus no nitric or access to nitric)
> There has to be a way to either eliminate, neutralize, solidify, remove, or dissolve the gelatin.
> I've read the bleach would attack to gelatin, but what would that do to my process?
> ...


how do you expect to brake rocks without the most basic hammer?
Even a silver cell will need nitric unless you want to buy all your silver nitrate.
You can maintain your electrolyte by crystallization once you have enough for your cell,but even this will need replenishment once in a while.
And your silver will produce some very dirty electrolyte.
Have you thought of sending it to a refiner who is equipped to process properly?


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 20, 2017)

justinhcase said:


> eaglewings35 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a way to get rid of the gelatin? That is my problem.
> ...


Yes, I have thought about it, but I'm a little hesitant.
I sent some karat gold and some gold filled stuff to Michael Montoya (a member on here),
and once he got it, he cut off communication, and never sent me anything back.
I would like to hear from someone who would be interested in doing this for me.
I have 893.1 grams of this silver (28.71 t oz)


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 20, 2017)

What part of the country are you in?


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## justinhcase (Jan 20, 2017)

you have 893.1 grams of a questionable alloy which needs a lot of work.
If you need a refiner it is much like dating.
You have to go out looking and kiss a fair number before you find some one who will treat you well.
I am sorry to hear you have been let down.one bad egg spoils the hole omelet for every one.
But the older more established firms can be trusted on the hole.The problem lies when people offer to generous a rate.
If you leave an honest refiner some meat on the bone they will look after you.
Who in there right mind would upset a client who can be expected to bring you regular worth while business.
Some people are of the mind that if a client tries cuts you too deep that they deserve to be taken.
That is the justification most con men use to get out of bed in the morning,they see there marks as greedy so are absolved of any wrong doing them self's. 
I have spoken to deluded prats who have convinced them self's they are the hand of Karma her self righting the injustice of the world one at a time.when in actual fact they where class A sociopaths ripping the heart out of every day people.


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## justinhcase (Jan 20, 2017)

Yes, I have thought about it, but I'm a little hesitant.
I sent some karat gold and some gold filled stuff to Michael Montoya (a member on here),
and once he got it, he cut off communication, and never sent me anything back.

when?
did you raise the problem with a monitor??
Such information may save a fellow member from making the same mistake!
Do not handle the situation aggressively but do seek help from other members who may have some weight.
If noting else it will mark him for further close observation and help stop further dishonesty.


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## Palladium (Jan 20, 2017)

I would like to know more about this story also.


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## anachronism (Jan 20, 2017)

What's the guy's name on here? Does he post regularly? 

If not why send any thing to him?


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 20, 2017)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> What part of the country are you in?


I am in the big state of Texas


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 20, 2017)

Palladium said:


> I would like to know more about this story also.


Well here it is.... his handle was mmon2616, he was having a hard time understanding some
of the instructions that were being given to him. So I reached out to him and offered him some help privately. We struck a friendship and began doing some processing as a business.
Yep, big mistake !!!! We both live in Texas, so we went to getting some business` to trust us.
Well, he had a friend that wanted in, strictly as a "silent, financial" partner. Well, Michael all the sudden turned on me. I bowed out and left it to them. Well I got a call some months later from Michael, saying that he was sorry, and his partner had abandoned him and took alot of the equipment that he had bought, and he said he was in need of money. He had a melting kiln and offered it to me for $100. I took the bait, and sent him $100 in silver. He said " if you have any gold to process I will gladly do it for you, just to help you out. Well, not having any nitric, and him having all that was needed, I sent him some karat gold, some gold filled, and plated stuff.
I started feeling a bit off, but I went against my gut feelings and sent it anyway. He got it because I sent it where he had to sign for it. That was the last I heard from him.he disconnected his phone, and blocked me from his Facebook. I called his girlfriend, she said she was in a fight with him, them she blocked me. So I definitely have "STUPID" written across my forehead. If you see anyone saying they are into processing silver from Fixer, on a large scale, it will probably be him. He changed his member name, but it is still close to the old one, mmon2616. I will find him and post it here for all to see and beware.


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 20, 2017)

Okay I found Michael Montoya`s New member name. His business name is M6 Metals. (From Houston area)
His forum name now is MA62016. Beware of this crook!!!!


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## g_axelsson (Jan 20, 2017)

It's a bit uncertain but going over the posts for both mmon2616 and MA62016 I can't see any similarities in where it's been posted from. Both users have posted from totally different places in USA.

MA62016 was posting from halfway across USA and I can't find anything that links him to mmon2616 except a bit similar forum handle.

On the other side, doing some more search I found M6MR&R who is posting from the same area and signs his post with Michael. Last time seen on the forum a year ago. This seems to be his current handle.

So unless you can put forward any other proof that MA62016 is a part in this conflict I will say that he is innocent and wrongly accused.

I'm going to send M6MR&R a pm to hear what he has to say about this, but I don't expect any answer soon since it's been a year since he visited the forum.

Göran


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 20, 2017)

Goran,
By all means, if I am incorrect in that being his handle, I will most sincerely apologize.
Like you, I don't suspect he will answer. But it is worth a try.


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## g_axelsson (Jan 20, 2017)

Googling "M6 METAL RECOVERY AND REFINING" turns up both a facebook page and a business registry for Texas but there seems to be no activity since summer. Since I'm in Sweden I have a hard time to go any further than this.

If he comes back and doesn't answer on this issue (I can see if he reads my pm) then I will assume he is guilty as charged and ban him.

Göran


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## UncleBenBen (Jan 20, 2017)

No, don't ban him. Bait him! :twisted: 
Then maybe this man can recoup his money. :wink:


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## anachronism (Jan 21, 2017)

Don't be too hard on yourself about it Eagle- we've all been there and done it I promise you Sir. I did the same with a forum member years ago with some good gold bearing product. It's one of those bumps in the road on the journey. You're only stupid if you let it happen again the same way!

Jon


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## justinhcase (Jan 21, 2017)

When I first started I had contact with an American Dealer through my coin contacts.
He very kindly let me have a large lump of eighteen karat alloy for spot so I could have some thing to work on.
Turned out to be eight karat,very big ouch.
Raised the matter with him still believing he was an honest trader and got the "You Deserve What You Get" speech.I have a special place above my desk for momentous to remind me just how stupid I can be some times.Like the Israelis .Never Forget ,Never Forgive.
It is an expensive education,but a good one.


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## Topher_osAUrus (Jan 21, 2017)

Reading the offending members posts was painful...


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 21, 2017)

UncleBenBen said:


> No, don't ban him. Bait him! :twisted:
> Then maybe this man can recoup his money. :wink:


HAHA, now thats a good idea !!!
But I believe that he will get paid back. I am a Christian man, and I have seen it many times before....
you dont steal from Gods people (which I are one) and not get into some serious trouble.
I have seen people who have done this, and their business and finances have tumbled.
I dont pray for bad things to happen to anyone, but God takes care of his own. !!!


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## eaglewings35 (Jan 21, 2017)

anachronism said:


> Don't be too hard on yourself about it Eagle- we've all been there and done it I promise you Sir. I did the same with a forum member years ago with some good gold bearing product. It's one of those bumps in the road on the journey. You're only stupid if you let it happen again the same way!
> 
> Jon


Thanks Jon, and you are right. I dont have to be hit over the head with the same hammer to know that it is gonna hurt and leave a bad bump.
No Sir, lesson learned !!


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## eaglewings35 (Feb 8, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Googling "M6 METAL RECOVERY AND REFINING" turns up both a facebook page and a business registry for Texas but there seems to be no activity since summer. Since I'm in Sweden I have a hard time to go any further than this.
> 
> If he comes back and doesn't answer on this issue (I can see if he reads my pm) then I will assume he is guilty as charged and ban him.
> 
> Göran


Hey Goran,
Did he ever see your pm that you sent him?
Just curious, as I dont expect him to answer. He will probably come back to the forum under
a new member name.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 9, 2017)

No, he hasn't read it yet.

Göran


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## eaglewings35 (Feb 9, 2017)

Hey Goran, I was searching through some post and I see Michael Montoya does have a newer member name. Look at M6Metal2016. 

M6 Metals is his business name. Send him a message their and see if he replies.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 9, 2017)

I've done that now, don't know if it will give any more results though.

Göran


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## aga (Feb 9, 2017)

The bulk of this topic is basically about getting ripped off.

No Risk, No Reward, so you *have* to trust people, at least a little, before finding lifelong enemies or bosom buddies. 

Finding _Good_ people is the same as refining - you need to process a lot of them them in acid and see if they end up shiny, or just grey sludge  



eaglewings35 said:


> Is there a way to get rid of the gelatin?


A chemistry thing is to rip up organic compounds (which gelatin is) with sodium hypochlorite, a.k.a. bleach.

Might be useful info for anyone with waxy or oily materials to process, and considering 'green-er' gold recovery routes - the bleach can be re-used in the gold dissolution step.

Incineration certainly works, is easier, and probably better, just less Green, unless it contains a lot of copper


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## eaglewings35 (Feb 9, 2017)

Well, roasting or incinerating does not work. I washed this stuff with HOT boiling water, and hot HCL. All looked good until I put it in the oven to dry it out.... the Bromide (Gelatine) turned black would not go away. 
I have been doing some research and I think I found an option. I asked Lazer Steve about this and he seems to think it should work. But I am going to make a electrowinning cell, and as it pulls out the silver, it should break the bond and leave the bromide behind. Another option I read on Wiki is ammonia will dissolve the bromide. But ammonia is nasty stuff, and that is a last resort. We'll see !!!


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## rickbb (Feb 10, 2017)

The gelatin layer on film is not bromide, gelatin is a protein based organic emulsion to hold silver bromide ,(and other silver salts called halides), crystals in suspension on the film.

Unless you had a very strong thiosulfate solution or left the film in for a very long time it does not normally strip the gelatin off the film. It simply forms a water soluble complex with the unexposed silver salts to remove them from the gelatin. 

The gel is left behind to hold any image bearing, (exposed and developed), silver. Since your film was never developed the thiosulfate will remove all the salts and the exposed silver that has been turned to metallic silver.

Your precipitate should be just the various silver salts, (bromide, chloride mainly), metallic silver and whatever drag out from the metal you used to precipitate with. In your case both iron and copper if I read your posts correctly.

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin_silver_process

"The fixer, typically sodium thiosulfate, is able to remove the unexposed silver halide by forming a water-soluble complex with it. And finally, a water wash sometimes preceded by a washing aid removes the fixer from the print, leaving an image composed of silver particles held in the clear gelatin image layer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin#Technical_uses

"Gelatin or gelatine (from Latin: gelatus meaning "stiff", "frozen") is a translucent, colorless, brittle (when dry), flavorless food derived from collagen obtained from various animal raw materials. It is commonly used as a gelling agent in food, pharmaceutical drugs, *photography*, and cosmetic manufacturing."_


The gelatin, being an organic protein, can easily be burned off by roasting the precipitate. (If you really have it present, I don't think you do.) You don't need to incinerate, just a low dull red glow is hot enough to carbonize the gelatin, as well as oxidize the silver salts. Do this with the lid off the pan and stir it a bit to expose all the precipitate to the air.

I think you have a mixture of silver, iron and copper. I would start by measuring out an certain amount to test with and put in hot HCL ONLY, no nails! 

I think the solution will turn either bright yellow, (iron dissolved), or green, (copper). Repeat this in clean HCL until the solution stays clear and the precipitate is off white and fluffy which will be silver chloride you can convert to metallic silver by either the sugar/lye or battery acid/iron method.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 10, 2017)

On Medical and Industrial x-rays, the silver is very pure. If you don't contaminate it with some other metal, the silver you recover from it should be of a similar purity that could be obtained in a silver cell. Unless you contaminate it, there is no reason to put it through a silver cell.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 10, 2017)

rickbb said:


> The gelatin, being an organic protein, can easily be burned off by roasting the precipitate. (If you really have it present, I don't think you do.) You don't need to incinerate, just a low dull red glow is hot enough to carbonize the gelatin, as well as oxidize the silver salts. Do this with the lid off the pan and stir it a bit to expose all the precipitate to the air.


You can't oxidize the silver salts with heat.

Chemically speaking the silver is already oxidized to Ag+ and won't increase the oxidation state.

If you are talking about turning silver halides into silver oxide, I don't think that will happen either as the silver salt is very stable and will boil off before turning into an oxide.

Göran


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## rickbb (Feb 13, 2017)

Thanks, I had read that the Ag was being oxidized in the roast while being stirred to expose it air, and was a necessary step. But I guess not everything you read is accurate, regardless of who the source was.

Edit; correct grammar.


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