# Extracting platinum, rhodium, palladium together



## greatgems (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm looking for a simple way to extract and presipitate platinum, palladium, rhodium all together from catalytic honey comb, no extracting seperate needed. I can melt to ingot and sell for full value so no refining needed just want the simplest highest yeild way to extract all three metals and drop them from solution to melt to bar form. I have read all the many step methods to extract pt seperate but that's not what I want. I would like a method to extract all at the sale same time Any help would be great


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## butcher (Apr 23, 2011)

You most likely will not get Rhodium with the platinum and palladium, zink would cement them.


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## greatgems (Apr 23, 2011)

But what chemical or process would get all three


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## butcher (Apr 23, 2011)

Seems you have a lot of reading to do. Without that basic understanding you will just wander in the dark, bumping into every problem out there.
Start with HOKE's book. See the book section there is a download, She will not deal with catalytic converters but will cover the basics you will need.
platinum and palladium will dissolve in Aqua regia, rhodium will usually need fusion in bisulfate, there are a couple of methods.


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## samuel-a (Apr 23, 2011)

greatgems said:


> I can melt to ingot and sell for full value



how will you know you get full value without knowing the exact content? does the buyer runs ICP analysts on your bars?

it strikes me as a bit odd for someone to pay full value for metals that still have a long way before they will be in usable condition...

Asa far as i know, rhodium does leaches out of the cat (probably complexed to a soluble salt), and all metals can be cemented as butcher said.

A simple HCL+Cl leach can do the job and same solution can be used for several batches of cat's before exhaustion.


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## greatgems (Apr 23, 2011)

I understand AR does get 2 I like a way to get all 3 and drop all 3 at the same time


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## 4metals (Apr 23, 2011)

> I like a way to get all 3 and drop all 3 at the same time



There are a lot of things i would like to see happen too, unfortunately I try to limit my wish lists to things that are within the realm of chemistry and physics.


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## greatgems (Apr 23, 2011)

I have multiple refining accounts where I get direct break downs of every metal in each bar


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## Lou (Apr 23, 2011)

That's nice.

Have a nice day melting them in significant quantity to get the best pricing. I don't know of any buyer at market price for mixed PGMs anywhere on the earth at any quantity. If you do, please share, I'd gladly pay you much money for it.


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## greatgems (Apr 23, 2011)

Can we get back to the main question I get 2.5-3 percentage off market so close enough I have a commercial account as I have been in the diamond and gold business for years I just want to know one simple process to remove all 3 metals I know that an arc furnace is a good option but I would preffer a chemical process


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## lazersteve (Apr 23, 2011)

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u86602111231x520/

Here's some more older posts:

Cat Extraction

Good luck getting all three metals with one solution.

I would love to know a PGM buyer paying 98% for mixed metals.

Steve


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## Harold_V (Apr 24, 2011)

greatgems said:


> Can we get back to the main question I get 2.5-3 percentage off market so close enough I have a commercial account as I have been in the diamond and gold business for years I just want to know one simple process to remove all 3 metals I know that an arc furnace is a good option but I would preffer a chemical process


People in hell would love to have ice water, too. It isn't likely to be, however. 

Harold


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## Lou (Apr 24, 2011)

LOL Harold.


No one's going to pay 98% on rhodium in small quantities. The margins just aren't there--it's too much work. Look up the JM rates... between them and Heraeus, they're about as competitive as it comes and that's with LOTS of material.

Different story on platinum alloy and even palladium in the form of jewelery material. Mix in the rhodium though, or mix them together, and find your settlement time get longer and longer, "commercial" account or not (I didn't know there were any other types with large refiners?).

Lou


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## greatgems (Apr 24, 2011)

Well so you know I'm not moving little gram amounts of metal I tried a cat refiner last month and did 1000 cats found we lost about 13-17 percent realisticly. Now how about a method to remove the pt pd together then a second method to remove the rhodium

my goal was to build up a kilo or so of pt pd then sell it 

Rhodium will take much longer but no problem


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## skeeter629 (Apr 24, 2011)

Good luck...I feel you will need it :shock:


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## samuel-a (Apr 24, 2011)

greatgems said:


> Well so you know I'm not moving little gram amounts of metal I tried a cat refiner last month and did 1000 cats found we lost about 13-17 percent realisticly. Now how about a method to remove the pt pd together then a second method to remove the rhodium
> 
> my goal was to build up a kilo or so of pt pd then sell it
> 
> Rhodium will take much longer but no problem




Though i always appreciate and respect folks that deal in large quantities, i find your attitude a bit weird...
You are a medium/large scale dealer, with 1000 cat's batch i assume you turned to a medium/large scale refiner. If they come up short 13-17 percent , what makes you think you could do better?

Oh... and by the way, the search box is in the upper right corner, check it out. Most of the known methods for doing what you want to do is already posted here before... It will be much more interesting and inreacing to see specific questions rather then just asking to be spoon fed right here right now.

No offense, but if you want quick info and step wise process that suits your needs, I'd recommend you to hire a consultant / buy educational articles.

Good luck, i feel you need it to.


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## butcher (Apr 24, 2011)

would a big arc furnace and lots of silver get all three.


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## greatgems (Apr 24, 2011)

I asked for advice and the best method I have read all the hcl cl ways of extraction all AR posts for cats I'm not looking for hand feeding just a simple answer. I ran that large batch to a cat refiner in Canada so they told me but all they did was run it to Texas was mislead. I have mainly dealt in silver and gold worked into cats fast but know the metal break down in larger shipment of 100 to 1000 pending on the type. My additude comes from the rude assumptions that i don't have a buyer for sold bars of all three or 2 metals. I use a assayer and buyer in Toronto that's partners with JM and have for years. I find when you ask a question of a great or solid method to do something here a few people shut you down and Say you haven't done your reading I thank steve for his reply I'm looking more into hcl cl might try iodine leaching for 10 or so. I love to know if anyone has an idea of a way to remove all three and yeild the best


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## greatgems (Apr 24, 2011)

I also want to do all extraction myself now I will post about my 1000 cat experience wasn't the best because of both the cat refiner and seller


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## skippy (Apr 24, 2011)

Greatgems, what do mean they came short 13-17%? You don't mean that their assay was low, do you? Or was their payout on the assayed metals weak?
Was it a outfit in Quebec? I remember seeing a website by a Quebec company and their website made it kind of look like they were actually refining cats.


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## samuel-a (Apr 24, 2011)

On that notion, check this patent out:
US 7,166,145 B1
example 1,6 and 7

Hopefully you could come up with some answers (or questions :mrgreen: ) in that file.

It was not my intention to refute your claim about having a buyer paying those rates for mixed PGM's.
I might have been a bit hasty, not taking into account that PGM's end products have a big added value when commercially sold. seems that you cut out a few middle men along the way...
I'm not in the spent cat's business, i just know what a pain it is (but also fun) to refine PGM's compared to silver and gold.

No offense meant mate.


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## greatgems (Apr 25, 2011)

Yes that outfit says they refine the cats in house so I purchased 1000 cats from supplier in California ship to QC just to find out they shipped them back to Texas where they stated all 1000 cats where pre leached they told us we get 1/3 of there value If that wasn't bad enough after that we reviewed the pictures we took of the cats and identified at best 2-5% of the cats looked like they had a small chance of being Leached so what we believe happened was they took the few ones that where leached or yeild low and send them off for assay then gave us a value of 30000 vs the 90000 we expected and they originally quoted us. The thing that bothered me was they told us they assayed them in house then when the 1000 arrived they changed there tune. Long story short unprofessional company we got stuck in a bad place and on top of it they claim 88% yeild but we know what we sent to them even if 2/3 of the material was all missing we netted like 75 percent then they paid out another 3 percent less and in usd after quoting in cdn making us take another $1000 loss I much rather extract the pgm myself using the refiners I trust and have used for years.


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## rusty (Apr 25, 2011)

Expensive lesson, why did you send your material to the refinery without an independent assay. Surely if you could afford to lay out the cash for 1000 cats the assay would have been peanuts.

Who is to say the refiners assay was not accurate when you have nothing to back it up with, cant say that I feel for your loss when your expectations were based on a whim. Next time use science to back you up, protect your investment.

It is a known fact that there are PGM losses over the lifetime of the cat, maybe you purchased high mile cats.

Regards
Rusty


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## greatgems (Apr 25, 2011)

I understand the losses over time and this firm promised to do an assay in house and process cats but they didn't that do anything in house


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## skippy (Apr 25, 2011)

edit - removed premature conclusion


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## Oz (Apr 25, 2011)

Greatgems, 
What “outfit” are we talking about here that you sold to? Skippy posted a link to PMR and if that is not who you sold to, they do not deserve the bad reputation.


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## skippy (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks Oz, you are right, poor behaviour on my part. 

I would like to say though, there is no need to put quotations around outfit. Perfectly acceptable english useage. 


out·fit
   /ˈaʊtˌfɪt/ Show Spelled [out-fit] Show IPA noun, verb, -fit·ted, -fit·ting.
–noun
1.
an assemblage of articles that equip a person for a particular task, role, trade, etc.: an explorer's outfit.
2.
a set of usually matching or harmonious garments and accessories worn together; coordinated costume; ensemble: a new spring outfit.
3.
a set of articles for any purpose: a cooking outfit.
4.
a group associated in an undertaking requiring close cooperation, as a military unit.
*5.
a business firm engaged in a particular form of commercial enterprise: a construction outfit.
6.
any company, party, or set. *


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## skippy (Apr 25, 2011)

Greatgems, I hope you don't mind me asking a question, one that's not likely really all that relevant, but why did you buy your cats from California?
I gather you are from my part of the continent, and if I needed a thousand cats, my first impulse would not necessarily be take-a-plane-to-California.


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## Oz (Apr 25, 2011)

skippy said:


> I would like to say though, there is no need to put quotations around outfit. Perfectly acceptable english useage.


I am aware of that. I was quoting Greatgems choice of words at the beginning of his post at 12:14am. Hence the quotation marks.

It is indeed best that nobody jumps to any conclusions as to the name of this company given the accusations that have been put forward, until Greatgems tells us.


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## greatgems (Apr 25, 2011)

I'd love as much simple extraction and persipitaion methods as possible but what I will do is post rue whole tramsactionit was an expensive but interesting learning experience. My problem is with how pmr sold us on how it's all done in house and how we could see the process. Then when we got to the point where the cats arrived all they did in there building was decan well he'll I could of done that. They then stated we couldn't watch even part of the assay or extraction process because it happened in Texas I have delt with 3 large refiners for pgm in Canada in my time and never thought that this would of been part of the issue


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## rusty (Apr 25, 2011)

greatgems said:


> I have delt with 3 large refiners for pgm in Canada in my time and never thought that this would of been part of the issue



Greatgems, care to name your sources, the " three " PGM refiners located in CANADA. To the best of my knowledge there are none. prove me wrong.

If you sold to the Canadian Mint who did you broker through.

You have not read the forum very well, it has been written that anyone sending large lots to a refinery can hire an UMPIRE to watch over the process. Secondly you failed to obtain an independent assay.

You did not do your homework, when the decanner in Canada informed you that you could not witness the assay WHY did you not pull the plug on a $1000,000.00 deal. Are you that careless with your money.

Regards
Rusty


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## Lou (Apr 25, 2011)

I *guarantee* you there are PGM refiners in Canada, and VERY big refiners at that.

Don't forget Sudsbury! Where do you think the INCO process was developed?

greatgems,

I'll help you if I can some time. Just PM me on details next time you do this.


Best,

Louis


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## rusty (Apr 25, 2011)

Lou said:


> I *guarantee* you there are PGM refiners in Canada, and VERY big refiners at that.
> 
> Don't forget Sudsbury! Where do you think the INCO process was developed?
> 
> ...



I apologize for my hastiness, but I'm very troubled with the fact there could have been a mix of after market, domestic and foreign cats in that 1000 lot and that greatgems relied on the refiners assay without having and independent assay done.

He sent the cats in whole, in my opinion they should have been de-canned by greatgems then milled into a homogenized mix for a proper assay. How can you rely on an assay from 1 or 2 cats taken from a lot of 1000.

Regards
Rusty


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## greatgems (Apr 25, 2011)

This has gotten way off topic the 1000 cats where evaluated at $95,000 so instead of assuming the value is really low which it wasnt. 

Next i know how to sell gold refiners and assayers i can deal with if needed

Express Gold ( buys for JM ) I Find there Payouts amazingly fast and fair. if shipments are to large they take you directly to JM
Imperial Gold
Used to be able to go to Handy and Harman but since they ran into financial problem it was good to skip them
Royal Canadian Mint will take Huge shipments only of Gold Right Now usually take 100 kilos plus 

Here in Canada there are no Cat Refiners i looked called everyone so thats why i went with PMR they said they where but all they did was out sourse there assay and refining. The way things where handled i couldnt watch nore over see the process this is why i want to extract the all the precious metals myself will start a little smaller and work my way up this time. When i say i have a buyer for the mixed metals i will either sell the bars of Platinum and Palladium, and rhodium seperate as it seems. i might seperate the metals later after having lots now my goal is just to buy cats from arround this part of ontario at decent prices. I have great cataloge and price lists from the refiners and know pretty much the market and metal values of each cat so please dont worry about that i just want to get the metals out the cat simplest way and safest way i can. 

I will post at a later day my tales of this deal go bad but back to the main topic


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 26, 2011)

I would think the process depends on the type of substrate, ceramic or metallic, that the PGM metals are attached to. :?: 

For ceramic, I have a couple of good ideas, for metallic I'm not so sure. :roll:

Do you have an accurate estimate of the amount value of the metals involved and of the profit margin?. $95,000 doesn't ay much for someone buying at 50% discount or 20% discount, etc.


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## greatgems (Apr 26, 2011)

95000 was the value of my 1000 cat shipment if it haddent been leached and if the buyer didn't take us to town but that will be another thread some day I usually buy at a 50 to 25 percent discount here in Canada


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 26, 2011)

Are you positive those used cats have around $200 each in precious metals?. It seems a bit rich, but I do not have a good idea at the moment. Looking to learn more.

If ceramic, a good boil for 4-5 hours in concentrated sulphuric acid in a cast iron kettle would get the Rh, and then a good boil in HCl-H2O2 in a resin-fiberglass kettle for another 4-5 hours would get the Pt and Pd. Recovering an unrefined metal powder from the liquids afterwards is straightforward.

If metallic my plan is too complicated. Looking to learn a simple way to do it. 8)


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## Lou (Apr 26, 2011)

Sulfuric acid also dissolve palladium.


One must pre-reduce the converter substrate to get the PdO to Pd before it can be leached efficiently. Unfortunately, doing so decreases the rhodium recovery, as Rh metal is much more difficult to solubilize than Rh2O3/RhO2.


Lou


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## greatgems (Apr 26, 2011)

No the average value was 95000 I paid less


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 26, 2011)

The cats usually have only either Pt, Pd, or Rh right?. It would seem stupid to have all 3 in the same cat no?. If so, it would be a big advantage to know which cats have what precious metal, and bundle them accordingly. No?. :idea:

Learning more as we speak... 8)


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## greatgems (Apr 26, 2011)

Most cats have all three with rhodium being the least some imports have just 2


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 26, 2011)

Is the substrate ceramic or metallic?.


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## greatgems (Apr 26, 2011)

I only deal in ceriramic would love some beads


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 26, 2011)

I'd love to know how much metal you can recover from a sample of say 10-20 cats. :shock:

Careful with that boiling sulphuric!. :x


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## skippy (Apr 26, 2011)

A problem with boiling in sulfuric is you'll consume a rather large volume of sulfuric acid. Not a huge deal if you are getting it in bulk though.
The other related problem is that you get quite some amount of aluminum and cerium (if present) sulfates, which can form annoying hydroxide precipitates while you are trying to cement your PGMs. You could probably get around this by cementing on copper, or doing something completely different like solvent extraction,
or electrowinning.

The aluminum sulfate also makes your neutralized solution into a big mess of gel, so there might be waste issues too.


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 26, 2011)

Well hopefully you can run the acid again in another batch till it is spent, then cementation looks good. 8)


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## bubba (Apr 27, 2011)

Harold_V said:


> greatgems said:
> 
> 
> > Can we get back to the main question I get 2.5-3 percentage off market so close enough I have a commercial account as I have been in the diamond and gold business for years I just want to know one simple process to remove all 3 metals I know that an arc furnace is a good option but I would preffer a chemical process
> ...




Lol , thats funny Harold.
I get such a kick out of these folks, someone like this calls me on average about once a month. 
You might as well be asking for a simple way to refine gasoline in your backyard. 
Most people that contact me have had some gold/silver endeavors, and assume that the same parameters apply to the PGM's. I assure you, they do not.
I am sure you would prefer a chemical process, as I assume you don't want to spend the ten million dollars required to build a furnace, and find the very specific expertise required to operate it. Well brother, when you work out your process, and I wish you all the best in finding it and making it cost effective, please contact me and quote me terms on 25,000 lbs per month. www.westerncatalyst.com


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## HAuCl4 (Apr 27, 2011)

bubba: How much are you getting paid on a per pound basis, re. the cats?. Or how much are you asking?.

edit: just found and read the other thread. Disregard my questions.


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## skippy (Dec 28, 2011)

Ok, I thought I would add a note to this thread: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=12466

kjavenb123 has had a good experience with PMR refining, and I thought this thread needed this added to it as it contained a good deal of negativity towards PMR, which may be totally unwarranted.

I still wonder how much they are actually doing with the material beyond assay and milling, but one person is happy
and assay and milling are important jobs in themselves. One thousand pounds is a reasonable minimum.


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## nmcs87 (Jan 14, 2012)

greatgems said:


> I'm looking for a simple way to extract and presipitate platinum, palladium, rhodium all together from catalytic honey comb, no extracting seperate needed. I can melt to ingot and sell for full value so no refining needed just want the simplest highest yeild way to extract all three metals and drop them from solution to melt to bar form. I have read all the many step methods to extract pt seperate but that's not what I want. I would like a method to extract all at the sale same time Any help would be great



Hi I'd like to separate them completely, where did you find info about that, help please!


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## nmcs87 (Jan 14, 2012)

butcher said:


> Seems you have a lot of reading to do. Without that basic understanding you will just wander in the dark, bumping into every problem out there.
> Start with HOKE's book. See the book section there is a download, She will not deal with catalytic converters but will cover the basics you will need.
> platinum and palladium will dissolve in Aqua regia, rhodium will usually need fusion in bisulfate, there are a couple of methods.



Hi, I'm new in the site, I can't find where to donwload Hoke's book, can you help me?


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## Harold_V (Jan 15, 2012)

nmcs87 said:


> Hi, I'm new in the site, I can't find where to donwload Hoke's book, can you help me?


Look for the link in the sig line of many of the readers. One in particular is found in Palladium's posts. There are several others. 

Here's a link that takes you to Palladium's home page. The link is found there, too. 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1666

Harold


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## lazersteve (Jan 15, 2012)

The Guided Tour also contains a link to the Hoke book.

Amazing how many people don't take the tour.... :?: 

Steve


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