# The truth about those GOLD LEAF FLAKE VIALS on eBay.



## Eric

I was just about to buy these vials in the Buy-it-now section until I learned the truth myself. Now I want to share this statement with you guys.

When browsing through the eBay auctions of gold coins, buillon etc, you have probably noticed gold flakes being sold most often in vials. They are most often portrayed in the auction as being large vials filled with pure gold. To the new collector of gold this may seem as quite a deal to come upon, immediatly using the "buy it now" option or bidding several dollars. Any auction listing gold or any other precious metal obviously lists its weight. The weight however is always absent with these gold flake auctions. Why? After researching i found that Gold leaf is only a few micrometres thick. The value of a gold leaf the size of a large gold coin is only about $0.20. 

What is metal leaf? Leafing is a thin foil of some nearly pure metal, often gold. If made by hand, small pieces of metal are placed between sheets of parchment and pounded repeatedly with wooden mallets. As the metal thins out, it forms large sheets. These sheets are divided and the process repeated. The final sheets of metal are trimmed, cut to various sizes, and sandwiched between sheets of paper to protect them. A small amount of metal will result in a sheet with a large surface area but only a few atoms thick. 

The same leaf you find in the vials for sale on ebay is the same leaf you find in a number of desserts and liquors like Goldschlager. Obviously if it is cheap enough to be used as a decoration in food products it is practically worthless to the investor. I think it is unethical for a seller to sell gold or another precious metal and not list the weight of the metal. He is simply trying to present the metal in a way to project a valuable commidity where almost none exists.

I have sent numerous e-mail to these guys asking one simple question--How much do they weigh? They only wish to talk about how beautiful they look.


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## goldsilverpro

Real gold leaf is about 3.5 millionths of an inch thick - less than 1/10 of a micron (micrometer). That's about $.03/sq.in. Put a sheet of gold leaf on a window glass and you can see through it.

If you search the older threads on this forum, this subject has been discussed in detail.

I just searched for "gold flake" on Ebay and got 593 responses. I would guess that not over 10 of these look like they might be real gold leaf (actually, maybe none of them are real). A while back, I emailed several of the sellers and asked questions about the karat and the weight. Like you said, they were evasive and only said how beautiful they were.

Here's a guy that's always selling the same thing. Notice that the label on the box has been gone over with a marker.
http://cgi.ebay.com/50-GRAMS-Gold-Leaf-Flakes-Schabin-Skewings_W0QQitemZ230268220958QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3381QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here's what the label actually says - Imitation Gold Schabin
http://www.artistcraftsman.com/gildingSupplies/metals/schabin.html


Of course, this entire gold leaf cottage industry on Ebay is a fraud. Something should be done but I don't want to spend the many hours necessary to attempt to do it. I probably wouldn't be successful anyhow. In my mind, the terms, "gold leaf" or "gold flakes" can legally only mean one thing - real gold. The legit companies that make imitation gold leaf always use the terms, "imitation", "faux", or "composition". The Ebay sellers never use these terms.


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## Eric

Imitation? Wow!!! I didn't expect that!

What really gets me is thee sixe of the vials. They look so big in the pictures but when I found out they were only 2.5 inches thick, it didn't seem much, but I felt that since the value of gold is measured in weight, not volume, it was still worth considering. However, since I was not able to clarify the weight of the "gold" that was a red flag for me.

I thought gold dust and gold leaf were the same thing, but now I know they are not.


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## donald236

speaking of gold dust , is it real gold and does it just need refining :?: :?:


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## goldsilverpro

Here's one that is probably real
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-24K-GOLD-LEAF-FLAKES-CERTIFIED-bullion-bar-scrap_W0QQitemZ250268244824QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250268244824&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

The guy started it out at $6.95. However, at $.03/sq.in. and a total of 22.5 sq.in., the gold value is only $.67. When new, real gold leaf sells for at least 4 times its gold content. You'll never find a bargain from it.


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## Exibar

goldsilverpro said:


> Real gold leaf is about 3.5 millionths of an inch thick - less than 1/10 of a micron (micrometer). That's about $.03/sq.in. Put a sheet of gold leaf on a window glass and you can see through it.
> 
> If you search the older threads on this forum, this subject has been discussed in detail.
> 
> I just searched for "gold flake" on Ebay and got 593 responses. I would guess that not over 10 of these look like they might be real gold leaf (actually, maybe none of them are real). A while back, I emailed several of the sellers and asked questions about the karat and the weight. Like you said, they were evasive and only said how beautiful they were.
> 
> Here's a guy that's always selling the same thing. Notice that the label on the box has been gone over with a marker.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/50-GRAMS-Gold-Leaf-Flakes-Schabin-Skewings_W0QQitemZ230268220958QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3381QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> Here's what the label actually says - Imitation Gold Schabin
> http://www.artistcraftsman.com/gildingSupplies/metals/schabin.html
> 
> 
> Of course, this entire gold leaf cottage industry on Ebay is a fraud. Something should be done but I don't want to spend the many hours necessary to attempt to do it. I probably wouldn't be successful anyhow. In my mind, the terms, "gold leaf" or "gold flakes" can legally only mean one thing - real gold. The legit companies that make imitation gold leaf always use the terms, "imitation", "faux", or "composition". The Ebay sellers never use these terms.



report this guy, I just did. He's clearly lying in his auctions, and I'm sure he makes his own vials using the imitation gold that he sells. His vials are all listed as "real gold".

http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReportItemMember


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## Eric

Exibar said:


> goldsilverpro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Real gold leaf is about 3.5 millionths of an inch thick - less than 1/10 of a micron (micrometer). That's about $.03/sq.in. Put a sheet of gold leaf on a window glass and you can see through it.
> 
> If you search the older threads on this forum, this subject has been discussed in detail.
> 
> I just searched for "gold flake" on Ebay and got 593 responses. I would guess that not over 10 of these look like they might be real gold leaf (actually, maybe none of them are real). A while back, I emailed several of the sellers and asked questions about the karat and the weight. Like you said, they were evasive and only said how beautiful they were.
> 
> Here's a guy that's always selling the same thing. Notice that the label on the box has been gone over with a marker.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/50-GRAMS-Gold-Leaf-Flakes-Schabin-Skewings_W0QQitemZ230268220958QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3381QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> Here's what the label actually says - Imitation Gold Schabin
> http://www.artistcraftsman.com/gildingSupplies/metals/schabin.html
> 
> 
> Of course, this entire gold leaf cottage industry on Ebay is a fraud. Something should be done but I don't want to spend the many hours necessary to attempt to do it. I probably wouldn't be successful anyhow. In my mind, the terms, "gold leaf" or "gold flakes" can legally only mean one thing - real gold. The legit companies that make imitation gold leaf always use the terms, "imitation", "faux", or "composition". The Ebay sellers never use these terms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> report this guy, I just did. He's clearly lying in his auctions, and I'm sure he makes his own vials using the imitation gold that he sells. His vials are all listed as "real gold".
> 
> http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReportItemMember
Click to expand...


Good idea but that doesn't necessarily fix the problem. There should be a more sophisticated way of selling authentic gold scrap. Maybe what they should do is require every scrap seller to indicate the weight of the pure gold before selling on eBay. If they are selling gold leaf vials, at least indicate the source of the gold.


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## Exibar

> Good idea but that doesn't necessarily fix the problem. There should be a more sophisticated way of selling authentic gold scrap. Maybe what they should do is require every scrap seller to indicate the weight of the pure gold before selling on eBay. If they are selling gold leaf vials, at least indicate the source of the gold.



Agreed, approx carat weight and weight of gold itself in ounces.

One seller that I contacted that appeared honest in his auctions, did tell me that there are only trace amounts of gold in his flakes. But real gold none the less. Not perfect, but better than the others that claim real gold and they're clearly fake.

That MTMining guy selling the boxes of flake told me he makes his own vials out of the boxes that he sells. He sells the vials as real gold... clearly lying in his auction.... again...

Mike B


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## Smitty

I believe EBAY will freeze your account if your caught breaking the listing rules too many times. Keep reporting him until they freeze his account.


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## viacin

hey everyone, i'm the new guy >.< New to the forum, and new to gold refining. 

I've looked at these gold flakes and asked some questions. I believe that some do have a small bit of real gold in them, and that some are completly fake. In fact, it would seem that about 90% of the flakes on ebay are just a rip off. 

But what about the refining process here. Say you do find a reputable seller and do manage to get some real gold. couldn't they be refined in some way, some how?


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## Exibar

sure they could be refined using the processes outlined here. But electronic gold plate is usually 23k - 24k, you'll have to refine hundreds of pounds to make one ounce of 24k gold. 
Others on this board can probably state a better experienced statement, but I don't think taht refining 100 pounds or more of flake to get an ounce would be worth it.

Now, if it's *real* gold flake, that's a different story. 24k gold flake would be worth refining, IMHO.

Mike B


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## goldsilverpro

> I've been looking at these gold flakes and asking some questions. I believe that some are 3k-6k (by one sellers admittance after three days of grilling), and that some are completly fake.



According to the websites selling "real" gold leaf, the lowest purity yellow leaf that I can find is 16 karat, which is very pale yellow in comparison to the leaf sold on Ebay. Even the 18K is very light in color. I know this, because I have some 18K sitting on my desk. Overall, the lowest karat leaf I found made is 9K white. According to this website, 9K is the lowest karat leaf manufactured (about 2/3 down the page).
http://www.gildedplanet.com/gold_home.asp

I think the Ebay seller lied to you. I really don't think that 3K-6K exists on the planet. There would be no reason to make it. Also, I doubt that it can be beaten to the desired thickness without cracking. When I emailed some of the sellers, they said that their leaf was very low karat. I didn't believe a word of it. It is possible that some may crumble a bit of real gold leaf and mix it with the imitation leaf, just to cover their butts. If so, the overall mix is probably far less than 1%, considering the low prices they get for it. It's a game for suckers.


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## viacin

I really think you're right GSP. I e-mailed two sellers and I recieved two seperate answers. One said they he honestly didn't know (yet his auctions stated pure gold flakes), and the other actually emailed the company that he bought them from and was told that they were 3-6k. I found a seperate website off of ebay that sells the vials also, and they claim that they are from 8-10k. I'm sure they are all liars, or being lied to. I really would not believe it unless I saw a assay myself.


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## goldsilverpro

I think you're right. In many (or, most) cases, they are being lied to. It's a daisy chain. The beginning of the chain is probably the guys who buy the big 100 gram boxes, which I mentioned in one of my posts above. They sell to others, who repackage, and they sell to others, who repackage, and so on. I almost believe that all of the stuff originates from those 100 gram boxes of imitation gold.


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## viacin

yep, this stuff is bought and sold about 5 times before it ever ends up in a vial and sold to the public. It's usually the soccer mom that ends up stuffing the vials and trying to make a quick buck, which they usually do. ebay is so saturated with these vials though that you'de have to find a new market now.


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## Anonymous

few of those 100 gram bags listed on ebay now for the same price per oz as a what a gram of physical gold is going for... http://cgi.ebay.com/3-oz-WHOLESALE-...14&_trkparms=72:1205|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1308

assuring that there is trace amounts of real gold present... *wonder what trace is.. background trace presence? heh few ppt that showed up from a dirty nitric acid wash bath in the testing lab? *

Anyone know what the chemical makeup of these fakes actually is?


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## Noxx

> On Sep-19-08 at 13:13:10 PDT, seller added the following information:
> 
> we have been asked alot of questions about quality of this gold leaf flake
> 
> the gold leaf flake we sell here is same as you will find in gold vials on ebay and retail stores
> 
> we are selling it here for wholesale pricing it is only $1 a gram it is not 24k like alot people have asked
> 
> it is trace content it is beautiful and will make tons of gold leaf vials or many other crafts
> 
> it retails for big money email if you have any questions thank you


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## goldsilverpro

It's mainly copper, with other base metals. Probably zinc, to make it yellow. No gold.

The only way the leaf can contain a trace amount of gold is if they took a very small amount of real gold leaf and blended it with the fake leaf. Were I a crook, that's the way I would do it. I would wager that there is no leaf manufactured that only contains a "trace" of gold. Like Frey said, what is a trace? One part per million? It can be anything he wants it to be. Until Ebay clamps down on this crooked flake business, I won't do business with them.

Like I said earlier, the lowest real gold leaf I can find being manufactured is 16K. It is so pale yellow that it would stick out, like a sore thumb, if compared with the color of the fake gold.

My main complaint is the fraudulent terminology that is used. The term "gold leaf" means that it is 16K gold content, or better


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## deserdog

The only way that ebay will do anything is for people to be persistant and to continue to file complaints. You have to keep bugging them.


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## Anonymous

:x   Well i was one of thoes suckers and purchased over 100g of this [email protected]#$% gold leaf and now have nothing but a big bag of pretty!!!


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## Helian

I actually bought a vial and tested it. There was no gold in it at all. I suspect that's true of most of the similar items on eBay. The seller I got it from refunded my money without a quibble, which suggest to me that he was fully aware of the fraud.


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