# JET ENGINES



## oldgoldman (Nov 16, 2012)

These were uncovered today. Probably date to around 1980 from a local plane crash. I'll do some research on that topic. I'll try to get the rating plate on them once they are free of debris.

Any help in identifying and valuing them as complete units would be appreciated. There are 4 engines from the plane.

Thanks in advance.

OGM


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## RikkiRicardo (Nov 16, 2012)

Very Nice just thinking of all the 
Platinum in the turbine blades



Rikki


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## Smack (Nov 16, 2012)

You mean Titanium?


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## Geo (Nov 16, 2012)

actually, its gold. its in the alloy used to braze the turbine fins to the ring. not all have, i think, im not sure that they dont all have gold braze but from the heated discussions on the forum about it, its a devil to reclaim it.


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## RikkiRicardo (Nov 17, 2012)

Platinum and Gold Recovery from Turbine Blades brazes also plated parts
do searches not just the blades there are other parts
with value
they are doing vacuum melting then recovery this is something that i will start learning.
Did you know that they also used gold coating in the cockpit window of some airplanes. 


Rikki


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## NobleMetalWorks (Nov 17, 2012)

oldgoldman said:


> These were uncovered today. Probably date to around 1980 from a local plane crash. I'll do some research on that topic. I'll try to get the rating plate on them once they are free of debris.
> 
> Any help in identifying and valuing them as complete units would be appreciated. There are 4 engines from the plane.
> 
> ...



If all four engines came from the same aircraft I am assuming it must be a commercial or military. I can't gauge the size of the engines, but by the shape, if they were indeed off an aircraft from the 1980s, I am guessing that they are from a 727. The Boeing 727 had four engines, I know what you are thinking, they only show two engines on the back side of the fuselage behind the pressurized section and the one engine that is on the top of the fuselage directly under the tail assembly, but they also have what is called an APU that is actually a jet engine itself to provide power to the aircraft when on the ground, and to start the other three. If it was a 727 from the 80s, it's probably a 727 200, which would make the engines Pratt & Whitney JT8D. But that's assuming a lot of things, I really am taking a wild guess. They could have also, if there are four of them, come off a 707 which had 4 engines, many of the 707s were converted for private use.

In the second picture you posted, it looks like the engine to the back/right has a different turbine configuration. That engine looks more like an APU than a wing or tail unit. It certainly wasn't used as primary thrust, because it does not have enough blades. It also has a dent in it, jet engines are extremely durable and rarely if ever break apart in an accident. That dent looks to me like the plane actually landed on it, which would make sense, the 727 APU sits in the landing gear bay, not in the wing or tail. This was done when the engine in the tail was added during the design because the APU made the tail too heavy. That would lead me to believe that these are 727 engines. But again I am taking a wild guess.

Because aircraft go through so many checks, and because the FAA has very strict guidelines about updated aircraft, you could say if the crash happened in the 80s, that the engines were updated up to that years technology. Or maybe not, perhaps that's what caused the crash? Kidding really, the engines will be compliant with whatever upgrades were required at the time. I was working on Aircraft in the late 80s, early 90s, for United Air Lines. They had the very first 727s that came off the line. I remember in 1989 the aircraft started coming through for their C checks and engine replacements. 

The only other commercial aircraft I know of, that crashed, in the 1980s and had 4 engines was a DC-8. But because the DC-8 did not have an APU, and that second picture looks like an engine that would not be used in flight, I still think it to be an APU.

If the blades are made of super alloys, it might have a composition like this:



> Composition of Ni based superalloy CMSX4 used since about 1995, these blades might not be exactly this composition, but they also could be close. I mostly worked with airframes and not engines.
> 
> Element Ni Co Cr Al Ti Ta Mo W Re Hf
> wt% 61.7 9.0 6.5 5.6 1.0 6.5 0.6 6.0 3.0 0.1
> at% 63.7 9.3 7.6 12.6 1.3 2.2 0.4 2.0 1.0 0.03



Most hot sections of the blades now days, are going to be single crystal formulations, I am not sure if your engines manufacture date fall before or after this was implemented. Any metals or alloyed used have to be able, to at least retain their structural integrity at around 2000°F. They also must be durable enough to transition from extreme heat to cold, over and over without suffering structural fractures.

The turbine blades almost certainly will contain platinum or be platinum plated.

You will find precious metals mostly in the high-pressure turbine section and fuel delivery system as well as silver and gold in many of the component parts. And I believe if I remember correctly, it's been about 10 years since I attempted to broker a deal for scrap aircraft. But back then about half of the total scrap value of the aircraft was in the engines themselves.

After looking at the pictures again, and comparing the engine to what looks like a gauge close by, I don't think they are large enough to the Pratt & Whitney JT8D. I'm still thrown off by the smaller engine with the wide spaced turbine blades in the back right of the second picture. To me it doesn't seem like an engine used for thrust, but rather power. I am going to still post what I wrote above, I figure it might be of use to someone. Looking at the crashed of 727s around the 80s, there was only one that crashed in the United States. in 1989. There were a couple in the 70s, but not in the 80s.

I am not sure about smaller private aircraft, like Learjets, I cannot remember seeing any that had 4 small engines, or for that matter 3 small engines with an APU. I would be really interested to know more about these engines, can't wait until you post more information.

Here is a picture of a Pratt & Whitney JT8D for comparison.



> EDITED: I was comparing the pictures again, if you count the blades from the halfway point in the pictures, and compare them with the picture I provided, you will see the same number of blades. I think this engine could very well be what I suggested before.









Scott


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## nickvc (Nov 17, 2012)

Whatever the engines came from there's not too many people I know who could recover and refine the values in them successfully. I don't think these are a project for the home or hobby refiner due to the size and complexity of recovery so a decent size refining area would be required as would a good understanding of the processes needed to get a full recovery. I know GSP has the knowledge as no doubt Lou and Lazersteve and possibly one or two others but it's a fairly short list of candidates.
You might do better selling them for parts or failing that for recovery of the values, take advice would be my opinion before doing anything.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Nov 17, 2012)

nickvc said:


> Whatever the engines came from there's not too many people I know who could recover and refine the values in them successfully. I don't think these are a project for the home or hobby refiner due to the size and complexity of recovery so a decent size refining area would be required as would a good understanding of the processes needed to get a full recovery. I know GSP has the knowledge as no doubt Lou and Lazersteve and possibly one or two others but it's a fairly short list of candidates.
> You might do better selling them for parts or failing that for recovery of the values, take advice would be my opinion before doing anything.



I certainly wouldn't pay to ship them anywhere too far, a fully dressed Pratt & Whitney JT8D weighs right around 3200 lbs if I remember right, and a stripped down APU for a 727 weighs in at 906 lbs. That would take a significant chunk of profit to ship. If I had these engines, I would strip them down myself and send off what I couldn't refine. To break down certain parts of the engine would require either destruction or special equipment, but even still small parts are better to ship than large heavy ones.

Scott


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## oldgoldman (Nov 17, 2012)

scott .. holy cow .. thanks for the information. rest assured everybody, they aren't going anywhere until extensive information is gathered. i don't own them per se. they belong to a partner of mine .. he is unsophisticated and i'm going to help him with the processing of them. agreed they are not for the home refiner due to the logistics involved. i hope they will be more cleanly laid out this week .. in the meantime, collective discussion is fun for all. i hope to find info on this " crash" also ..


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## NobleMetalWorks (Nov 17, 2012)

Honestly, I am really curious to find out exactly what type of engines you have. They look like Pratt & Whitney but then again almost any stripped engine will look similar to another. The way you can generally tell by pictures is the distance between the fan blades, and the distance between the center and outer center and outer center to outside/length of the blades. I know commercial aircraft, and by association some military, but I am not too familiar with private jet aircraft. So to say the least this thread has captured my curiosity. 

Thanks for posting the pictures!

Scott


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## DONNZ (Nov 29, 2012)

Looking around today at: Visual Series: http://www.visualcapitalist.com/

(nickel based superalloys account for 50% of the total weight of an aircraft jet engine)

Might not be important.


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## Dan Dement (Nov 29, 2012)

The jet engines of the late 70's have very little Platinum on the blades. Some of the military Blades have gold brazing but not all. It's expensive to extract and the amount of gold return is fairly small for the expense involved. I have a 3 inch notebook of breakdown of Jet engine Aircraft blades and very few have PGM. Now, the later engines from the late 90's & 2000's have more PGM but the government no longer sells these parts as surplus. Looking at the age of the engines, I doubt if they have any PGM's in them.

Good Luck,
Dan


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## rusty (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm curious if the sulfuric reverse plating cell would remove the gold brazing.


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## sena (Mar 22, 2015)

rusty said:


> I'm curious if the sulfuric reverse plating cell would remove the gold brazing.



googled this today some info

http://www.google.co.in/patents/US4274908

thanks


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## METLMASHER (Mar 22, 2015)

Outstanding link, Sena. I read all with good comprehension, and this is an obvious asset if it works as described.


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## justinhcase (Mar 23, 2015)

What kind of Ultrasonic transducer could you use in an reaction vessel?I only have standard glass no glass lined stainless steel  
Would you try to mount it against the glass on the side,where it would get hot from your mantle or sand bath.
Or try to find one encased in glass to drop into the vessel it's self and hope it could withstand the environment?.
I suppose you would have to make sure it is not close to the Sympathetic resonance of what ever vessel you use. :roll:


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## 4metals (Mar 23, 2015)

I have used an immersible ultrasonic transducer in a stainless water bath with an immersion heater into which I placed a glass battery jar for the acid. This worked well but only for pieces that would fit into the limited space of a 20 liter battery jar. 

If you are removing the braze and recycling the parts for reuse, the size may be an issue with whole stators and rotors.


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## justinhcase (Mar 23, 2015)

I am only using 20L flasks.
It is a nice size to handle.
The neck is only 110mm, but it is good to cut part's down as much as you can to give as meany faces as possible for attack.
Just whack the part on the auto power saw and go back when you hear the clunk.
I did try an submersible heater to start with but found it would not run hot enough and only lasted a week despite being rated for acid environments.
The plastic seals seem to become more vulnerable to the acid at higher temperature's
Also high frequency sound is very directional,one hung in solution may not affect the hole vessel. 
I will have to look for a unit I can strap on(oo er missus ) to the vessel,it would need an interface material much like the gunk they put on you for ultra sound imaging.(finding one that will stay soft at high temperatures will be fun). 
Like most thing's probably going to need to find a number of different unit's to test each possible variation.
A lot of work but may save some time in the long run,.
any hint's to save recreating work would be a boon.


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## 4metals (Mar 23, 2015)

The way I set it up the transducer and heater were sitting in water. The acid and material were in the battey jar. A battery jar has an open top much like a 5 gallon bucket. I used a heavy Polypro lid with a Small exhaust hole to scrub the fume. The glass transferred the energy from the ultrasonic quite effectively and if I gave it a half hour before turning on the ultrasonic the acid warmed up from the hot water it was sitting in.


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## justinhcase (Mar 23, 2015)

Yes a water or oil bath would give a better transfer of sound.
Unfortunately I found electric heating mantles and sand bath's less messy to have around.
Thanks for you advice,always very good to hear form you 4metals.
Hope you are still doing well,Your kit is getting much use.
Regards
Justin


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## sena (Mar 28, 2015)

would these method strip gold brazing ?


https://youtu.be/VZ0Fzfi9KLY

https://youtu.be/HkbDtvq_-P4

Thanks


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 28, 2015)

sena said:


> would these method strip gold brazing ?
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/VZ0Fzfi9KLY
> ...


For certain blades with a Pt coating, maybe, but since there are so many sizes, I would think the nozzle would have to be manually controlled. It might also be feasible to tumble them.

Most of the PMs are in the form of brazes used to braze parts together. I doubt if it would work on them.


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## g_axelsson (Mar 28, 2015)

Since the treatment only stripped the coating and not the underlying metal I would hardly doubt it would touch the surface treatments of the blades, it would be even harder to affect the brazing between metal parts.

Göran


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## sena (Mar 29, 2015)

View attachment Pratt & Whitney .pdf
Superalloys for Pratt & whitney engines full spec


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## g_axelsson (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks, that was a very interesting file.

Göran


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## goldsilverpro (Mar 29, 2015)

Interesting but very dated. 1966 was in the stone age of jet engine alloys. Probably the biggest change came in the 80's, with the advent of of single-crystal alloys. There are tons of more modern articles when you search for - superalloys jet engines. You might also add the word "generations" to the search.


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## sena (Apr 6, 2015)

Got this PT coated blade today , would somebody tell me how much PT coating would be there ..

Thanks


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## goldsilverpro (Apr 6, 2015)

Need a photo to show the entire blade. Put something next to it to show its size - ruler, coin, etc.


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## sena (Apr 7, 2015)

These weight 5 kg Each
26 inches long and 13 inches wide 

thanks


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## Lou (Apr 7, 2015)

look like titanium fan blades to me.

Platinum plated blades of that size are only found in industrial gas turbines and their yield is low relative to other, smaller pieces with a higher surface area to mass ratio.

Regards,


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