# second interesting component and questions



## samuel-a (Dec 18, 2009)

we have this component's :



again, military grade, i have no idea what's it's name or what it does.

now, my partner claims that the upper plate are all platinum.
and we both belive that the legs and the solder between the the upper plate and the ceramic body are 'all gold'
plus, inside runing a few ultra thin gold wires that are also 'all gold'.
we have broken one of them with an axe, but in the picture u can't see the thin wire that run from the legs to the center of the plate, other then that it's hollow indise.

now, my questions
1 - does the plate possibly be all platinum? how should i test it?
2 - if it not platinum, icould treat it with HCL and then HCL+Cl no problem. but if it is platinum.. how would i treat it? dissolve everything with HCL+Cl and then separate the two? is it even possible?


i have access for 20-30 pounds of that component .
and can run test's according to your suggestions....


many thanks for your kind answers
SAMUEL


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## lazersteve (Dec 18, 2009)

They appear to be some sort of oscillator chips.

The lids have no real reason to be all platinum. Manufacturers don't use precious metals unless they have a real purpose in the design.

Platinum can be verified by dissolving a very small piece of one of the lids in hot AR in a test tube and testing with stannous chloride.

You can recover the gold with warm HCl-Cl.

If you post some part numbers off of the top of the ic's perhaps it would help identify the components real identity and find a data sheet with the design specifications.

Steve


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## samuel-a (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks steve, i also belive that the lids are not platinum.
i still haven't got the chance to drop one in stright hot HCL.
if the HCL will not dissolve the lid with heat i'll move toward AR
next week i hope i'll get some nitric acid and this is whay i prefer to check first with hot HCL

the part no' on the lid says:
32.110 Mhz
JOC3-2 40-27
i hope i'm correct cous it's very very small writing.

i have found this page:
http://www.ecliptek.com/crystals/ECCM9/
but i'm sure that they are the same...
again, this is produced in the loacl military industry, so i'm not really sure about finding a spec sheet on the web...

if i'll drop a unit to hot HCL+Cl, without braking or removing the lid (it's impossible to manually disconnect the lid without some gold with it ) will the lid dissolve? what ever it is...platinum or steel of some kind....


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## g_axelsson (Dec 19, 2009)

> 32.110 Mhz


It is a crystal oscillator with 32.110 Mhz frequency.

/Göran


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## samuel-a (Dec 19, 2009)

thank you g_axelsson 

but, can you confirm the gold contecnt and maybe platinum content?


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## samuel-a (Dec 19, 2009)

well...

after soaking 4 hour in hot HCL the lid disconnected from the body and after stop emmiting bublles it remains as a silvery foil (indeed platinum...?)

the legs (four squer gold tips) are appear to be as a plating and disconnected like from fingers foils...

the solution turnd emrald green (indicating iron/steel maybe? )


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## Platdigger (Dec 19, 2009)

When someting does not disolve in hcl, does not necessarily mean it is pt.
Add a bit of chlorox to see if it will go into solution.
If it does, heat a bit to drive off excess chlorine, allow to cool and then test with stanis.


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## g_axelsson (Dec 19, 2009)

samuel-a said:


> thank you g_axelsson
> 
> but, can you confirm the gold contecnt and maybe platinum content?



No, I can't. The golden parts are without doubt gold but I don't understand why the lid should be platinum. The lid is probably made from a metal alloy with the same thermal expansion coefficient as the ceramic capsule. It is then plated with something that will protect it against oxidation and allow it to be soldered to the capsule.

You got the foil from the lid so I suggest that you make some tests.
- Will it tarnish if you heat it up to a red glow? Pt wouldn't.
- After heating it you could test a piece in nitric acid and one piece in sulphuric acid. Any reactions?
- Finally, try to dissolve it in AR and test with stannous chloride to see if you have any values in it.

If you have a reaction with stannous then there is detailed information on the forum and in Hokes book on how to identify the precious metal.

/Göran


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## samuel-a (Dec 19, 2009)

afer about 5 hours i removed the test tube from heat source.
still have the lid foil and now it is perforated, i'll leave the test tube un heated for the night and will make the tests that you suggested tomorrow .

Thank you very much...

looks like they don't have as much PM's as we thought ...

SAMUEL


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## samuel-a (Dec 20, 2009)

Göran

first of all, here is the stannous test of the hot HCL solution:
(the component soaked there about 4 hour with heat and left for the night at room temp')


gold tester on top show known gold solution
down, sky blue from the solution, which faded away after a minute or two...

what does that indicate on the HCL solution content?

BTW, when adding some water to the solution it turn golden yellow... this is just cool...


test's i ran:

- i heat up one foil to red hot and the shiny silvery color remains the same and didn't tarnished.
- the foil did not reacted with concentrated (97%) sulphuric acid and did not reacted to hot sulphuric acid .
- the foils are not magnetic .

at the moment i don't have nitric acid, in spite of that, what can this tests tell you?

Edit: update: the foils did dissolved in HCL+Cl, and stannous test shows absolutly nothing.
is this the way to check PGM's from HCL+Cl ?

Thank you
SAMUEL


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## butcher (Dec 20, 2009)

did you eliminate excess chlorine before testing with stannous chloride? maybe retry heating a sample to drive off any excess oxidizer, which can redisolve any gold, your stannous is trying to precipitate in your spot test.


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## samuel-a (Dec 20, 2009)

well...
i'v done the dissolving of foils in a watch glass and let it a while to evaporate any chlorine...
i left it over night and i'll try again in the morning the test.

btw, this foils are PGM's suspects and not gold.

Thanks
SAMUEL


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## samuel-a (Dec 24, 2009)

the strangest thing happend with one of the test batchs.

the procedure went like that:
- 5g of that components soaked in hot HCL for a night.
(most of the gold foils have disconnected)
- then i replaced the HCL and put it for another night on hot plate.
(99% of the gold foils disconnected, the lids foils disappeared)
- water rinsed and again hot HCL for another night.
- replaced the HCL, added Cl until all foils dissolved.
- sipuned the AuCl3 from the test tube to a small vial, and when added distilled water to the test tube to grab the rest of the AuCl3 i got a small precipitation inside the test tube of white crystals.
- i added the water + crystals to the AuCl3 in the vial and it stated snowing inside with with crystals, and the golden color became very pale.
- filterd the solution and found that the powder/crystals that i thought was silver chloride was actually very yellow and not withe... is it possible that this is AuCl3 at salt form? because when i droped some stannous chloride on the filter it turned black almost, showing a lot of gold.
(the powder/crystals didn't dissolved in water but did dissolved in HCL, but then, the solution showed negative for gold... i'm a bit confused...)
- i have added SMB to the now pale solution and got only a few grains precipitated and solution turned clear and negative for gold...

sorry that i dont have any picture now...
the main confusion for me is... how did i got AuCl3 dropping out of solution in it's salt form? just by adding water...


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## lazersteve (Dec 24, 2009)

It's gold chloride, it's copper I chloride. 

Steve


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## samuel-a (Dec 24, 2009)

i thought so to, but rememberd that you said that adding water to AuCl3 usually drop out any silver
does AuCl3 and CuCl shows the same result in stannous test?

part two of the strange batch:

i have continued to dissolve gold from the same batch (HCL+Cl), this time much more came out, a the stannous showd it clearly by it's color. 
the AuCl3 was very golden and rich colored.
without diluting, i boiled to get rid of any chlorine, i added SMB but again, snowing....
siphuned to anuther test tube, leaving the snow in the main test tube, added SMB, a little snow appeared, and then the gold started to precipitate on top of the withe substance .

to the withe substance in the main TT i added HCL and it didn't dissolved it... this is whay i think it's silver chloride...

i sure hope that it is CuCl... and not AgCl

Thenks steve, 
SAMUEL


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## samuel-a (Dec 24, 2009)

well.. here is some pictures:

1- this is the yellow powder in filter, the came out of AuCl3 (first dissolution) and after i added to it stanssous chloride.
this powder parially dissolved in HCL, but the the solution was negative for gold.



2- this is the white precipitant that came out of the AuCl3 (secund dissolution of the same source components) in the main test tube after adding SMB, i have shaken it a little so you could see it. the liquid is HCL, clearly not dissolving.
and maybe some gold at the bottom...



3- this one is the secund SMB precipitation, a little white and gold powder precipitate on top.
you can see clearly the layers.


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## samuel-a (Dec 24, 2009)

before the secund dissolution, have tested the HCL that i added to components and it came that black spot unlike the uthers that are gold... is it any help?



i have started a new batch and will update with pictures evey step that i take.

step one:
5 grams of the oscillators, will soak for the night in HCL
here it is:


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## lazersteve (Dec 24, 2009)

If the white powder is insoluble in water and HCl it may be silver chloride. If it is AgCl it will darken to a purple gray color when exposed to sunlight.

If the white substance dissolves in HCl it is likely copper I chloride.

The last picture above looks like it may be a nickle solution, you can check for nickle by making the pH above 7 with ammonium hydroxide and then testing with DMG. A bright pink color indicates nickle.

Adding SMB to solution which contain copper II chloride will precipitate some copper I chloride depending on the pH.

Steve


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## samuel-a (Dec 25, 2009)

hi steve

i have exposed the test tube (pictures 2 & 3 above) with the white powder to the sun for about 30 min... nothing happend.

so, i figured, if it's insoluble in HCL or water, maybe i'll give it a go with HCL+Cl, amazingly, only the gold went in the solution, leaving the white powder at the bottom... just to remind this substance precipitated from an HCL+Cl along with the gold earlier.

i have siphuned off the AuCl3 and put it a side to evaporate the chlorine.

what was even more amazing is, that after all the gold was gone, this substance dissolved immediately in water.

testet this water with stannous chloride.... nothing.. no color...


i'm happy that i could seperate the gold from it, but i sure as hell would like to know what that substance is....
i hope the drop will go well....

SAMUEL


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## butcher (Dec 25, 2009)

maybe just table salt, taste it.


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## samuel-a (Dec 26, 2009)

how do i test NaCl in solution?
cous i'm sure not gonna taste it... :?: 


Thanks
SAMUEL


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## butcher (Dec 27, 2009)

actually you can taste an salt, or acid just a drop to tounge spit and rinse. acid will bite the tounge bitter, 

(a caustic on my hand make them slimmy making soap out of my dead skin and its oil)

of coarse you can test for acid or base useing the PH meter, or test strips, or red cabbage or phenophthaleine, methal orange etc.
if you suspect salt
You could also see if it dissolves easily in water.
Another test I would use is add to silver nitrate, it would precipitate silver chloride.
sodium in a flame burns bright yellow to orange.
pool store will sell you test kits to test for chlorine or table salt.

if you know what ingrediants you used to get this salt (white precipitant) you can usually tell about what it is by looking at the chemical reaction that created it,

acid and base muratic acid and caustic soda makes table salt water
HCl + NaOH = table salt NaCl + H2O water

so your hydrochloric acid and sodium hypoclorite base can make table salt look at these reactions.
lets make bleach
2NaOH + Cl2 --> NaCl + H20 + NaOCl (bleach) 
now look at muratic acid and bleach
HCl + NaOCl --> Cl2 + NaCl + H2O
notice the salt? notice the chlorine gas? 
now in the above equation some Chlorine gas Cl2 + H2O water would change back to HCl muratic acid and HOCl bleach
CL2 + H2O --> HCL + HOCl
now these equations are not showing the reaction you have with your metals, and as these salts form they can grab your metals with them in the crystals.


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## samuel-a (Dec 28, 2009)

rhank you butcher for your answer.

SAMUEL


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## butcher (Dec 28, 2009)

Samuel, your smart, tasting is not the best way to test these salts, let us know what you find from testing your white powder.
see if with warm water you still have insolubles.
just for fun 
What is that pile of brown stuff that animal left?
if it looks like, smells like and taste's like it well it probably is.
just brown stuff


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## samuel-a (Dec 29, 2009)

lol :mrgreen: 

well, as i said, after the HCL+Cl that dissolved only the gold but not the white powder, the white powder did dissolved immediately and completely in cold water.

unfortunately for me... the test tube felled and spilled everything to my sand bucket that is on top of the hotplate.

if that powder will appear again i'll test the way you suggested.


thank you and nice day
SAMUEL


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## netseeker (Dec 29, 2009)

Looks like butcher may be acquainted with Cheech and Chong. A misspent youth no doubt  ....I can still remember the old LP on the record player.


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