# Mechanical depopulation of PC Boards



## snoman701 (Dec 8, 2016)

First, while I am a new member, I have very little interest in the PM content of Ewaste. My interest is more in the big picture. I like the recycling industry. While I am a "back yard guy"....I am also a prototype and design company. My point in this...please skip the "read Hoke" comments. I do recover and refine silver, largely as a secondary operation...and enjoy it. And while I am saving gold components, the chemistry side requires such high control and confidence in methods that I prefer to avoid. See my previous post in safety for a good example! :lol: 

So herein is my "method". In the past, when I have entered a field, it has begun with "here's the current methodology". In some cases this involves reading a stack of journal articles. In others, it means working on the floor next to the guys that actually know what the hell their doing. The recycling industry is new to me, even though I've been involved with it for ages (I am a collector of anything, I have spent countless hours in scrap yards and recycling yards finding value in other peoples junk).

My point, I think this field is young in it's development of technology. The methods are brutal. (and sometimes brutal is best) 

Wherein my confusion lies, is that there seems to be a gap between mechanically stripping boards via labor intensive processes and cherry picking the high yield components with heat gun and labor and sending the remainder through the wood chipper used in Fargo. (and yes, I'm very knowledgeable of modern grinding techniques, that was sarcasm).

The recycling industry is very owner operator centered. It's collected, it's categorized, and it's shipped. There is very little field based material upgrade in the bigger yards. It's just shipped. At the smaller yards, it's labor intensive. The good ole boy that could have the engine out of the chevrolet in ten minutes, while preserving all of the mechanical components....all before you can even find your 13 mm wrench. 

So my question is the following...I have heard of industrial "desoldering" machines. I have seen chemical processes to strip the solder. What I have not seen is a time effective method of mechanically stripping components of a PCB to not only conserve integrity of the board, but also the original integrity of the components. 

And while companies such as boardsort (which I love) would argue that the most efficient method of recovering values is to shred it, then pyrolize the whole damn pile of junk, I still question if that is the most cost effective method, let alone environmentally friendly method.

The capillary strength of solder is quite substantial, so I recognize that the necessity of breaking that force


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## anachronism (Dec 8, 2016)

OK, Ive read that post and I've heard what you're saying. 

Now. Mechanical depopulation of boards to concentrate the PM bearing materials is not young in the industry. It's done on commercial scales, and not involving intensive labour. For the small scale recycler the cost/benefit analysis is not good. Whether you choose to buy equipment to do it or choose to cherry pick certain components then remove those individually, then once you add in your own time the cost makes it inefficient. 

Please note I am answering this question on a commercial basis, NOT for the guy who is taking in free e-waste and doing it in their spare time. Although the point about the worth of your own time does remain the same. This is something others have alluded to, Deano for one. I'm also not entirely sure what you mean by having very little interest in the PM content of Ewaste. Given there are a lot people on here who make a good living from this, along with others who make a great personal income from it could you please explain your thinking further perhaps? 

To answer your specific point about a time effective method of removing components from a board whilst retaining the integrity of the board and the components:

There is machinery available to do this, its the same equipment used in workshops to replace board level components. It isn't cheap and since I am answering from a commercial perspective you would have to be picking and choosing your material to make it financially viable. 

I would be asking the question as to your end game and goal and balancing your desired outcome with the reality of the input required in whichever path you choose to take. If you could explain further it may be that I can help more.

Jon


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## snoman701 (Dec 8, 2016)

Jon,

Thanks for the response. You actually sound like you have just the knowledge I'm seeking. 

On a commercial scale, how are boards depopulated? 

Any recommendations for understanding the commercial process of recycling say, "a motherboard". 

By not interested in the PM's...I mean simply, I don't have the gold bug. I just have a very strange interest in the process, and would ultimately like to work within the field if I can find a niche.

Thanks again,

-Jacob


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## Topher_osAUrus (Dec 8, 2016)

Plasma arc furnace


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## kurtak (Dec 9, 2016)

Topher_osAUrus said:


> Plasma arc furnace



That's a smelting process - it doesn't address snowmans question - read his OP again

Kurt


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## kurtak (Dec 9, 2016)

anachronism said:


> OK, Ive read that post and I've heard what you're saying.
> 
> Jon



Like Jon I hear what you are saying :mrgreen: :lol: 

Don't have time to post a reply right now as I just used up my posting time replying to your other thread (safety) & have to get headed out to the lab to AR a batch of CPUs that should be done with there HCL pre-treatment now

Will be keeping an eye on this thread to see what Jon (& others) have to say & try to do my best to post a reply later today &/or tomorrow morning (no promise as I am working a good size batch for a client right now & he comes first)

Kurt


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## nickvc (Dec 9, 2016)

From memory the big boys frag mechanically and magnetically sort and then smelt using excess copper, the bars produced are assayed and sent to copper refiners for settlement of the values, again from memory certain elements are paid for and some carry penalties depending on the percentage, settlement takes 90 days or longer but you can take advances which carry interest which is deducted at final settlement.
This was all detailed some time ago by 4metals I believe but I'm not sure any better large scale process exists so perhaps he can add any further details.


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2016)

snoman701 said:


> Jon,
> 
> Thanks for the response. You actually sound like you have just the knowledge I'm seeking.
> 
> ...


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2016)

nickvc said:


> From memory the big boys frag mechanically and magnetically sort and then smelt using excess copper, the bars produced are assayed and sent to copper refiners for settlement of the values, again from memory certain elements are paid for and some carry penalties depending on the percentage, settlement takes 90 days or longer but you can take advances which carry interest which is deducted at final settlement.
> This was all detailed some time ago by 4metals I believe but I'm not sure any better large scale process exists so perhaps he can add any further details.



As Nick said. To add some meat to the bones:

If concentration of PMs is the goal then once the processes laid out in our posts above have been followed the copper bearing product goes one way and the PM bearing product goes another, whilst the base metals and plastics go in their own directions. 

90 days from shipment is a good benchmark. That's what I get. You could send material to a packager and get some of your money on delivery however the trade off is that you pay commissions to a third party and your returns are lower. It's about cash flow. If you can tie up $300,000 (or a LOT more) and wait for the refinery you will get more profit.

Dealing with refineries and sorting the wheat from the chaff is an acquired skill in itself. Suffice to say unless you have a decent amount then they won't deal with you and a packaging company becomes your only route in until you have the capital to bulk up a full load yourself.


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## snoman701 (Dec 9, 2016)

anachronism said:


> Before you think of a niche think of the cost required to set up in that niche. People who want to set up concentrating the values from ewaste fall foul of the base fact that unless you are dealing with hundreds of tonnes of raw product per month the whole concentrating process nets you less money after costs than sending the raw material straight into a refinery. You should have plenty of resource here to look at an research now because one site will lead you to another and before long you'll have 20 browser pages open.



I do not disagree with this post...in fact, I wholeheartedly understand it. However...

It is based upon an expectation of losses that seem fit and acceptable. When you simply sort conductive from non-conductive, and magnetic from non-magnetic....I would imagine you lose a majority of the contact losses. The smudges, the smears, the pieces of plastic with gold wires still embedded. 

From a hypothetical. If one were to painstakingly remove every component from a "batch" of motherboards. Then process the concentrated values using accepted technologies....and process the actual PCB using accepted technologies.....and compare it accepted technologies of shredding, sorting and refining, would the concentrates yield greater value? 

I get it, it's a complete change from accepted methodology. But simply said, in reading differing opinions of "this is what I get when I process in my shed" vs "this is what they get per ton"....the numbers appear VERY VERY different. 

One of the things I gathered from Mario when I initially started selling to boardsort, is that the benchmarks weren't even there. They had no clue what to expect...so they had no clue if their sorting methodology was good, etc. 

And yes, completely understand 20 open browser windows. I have 7 on this tab alone.


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2016)

You're correct in that before you start to do this there are no benchmarks. You know that there are larger margins that you would be offered if you trade board but until you have hard data from your own loads it really is a case of licking your finger sticking it in the air and guessing the wind speed and direction. That hard data allows one to to set buy prices based upon the known range of returns for any given product stream. The main reason that nobody is going to release that information is because it's taken them hundreds of thousands of dollars in risk to get those numbers coupled with the commercial advantage those numbers provide. Someone doing this professionally could look at quite a lot of streams of material and make an informed decision on the ppm yields of Au/Ag/Pd/Pt/Cu to within 25ppm. 

"From a hypothetical. If one were to painstakingly remove every component from a "batch" of motherboards. Then process the concentrated values using accepted technologies....and process the actual PCB using accepted technologies.....and compare it accepted technologies of shredding, sorting and refining, would the concentrates yield greater value?"

No. The PM value is the same regardless. You would just spend more time to get the same result and the net effect would be less net profit. 

"I get it, it's a complete change from accepted methodology. But simply said, in reading differing opinions of "this is what I get when I process in my shed" vs "this is what they get per ton"....the numbers appear VERY VERY different."

Yes they do. The "this is what I get per tonne" figure is higher than what is obtained in your shed.


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## nickvc (Dec 9, 2016)

To put it in very simplistic terms the cost and time to home sort and refine e scrap against what a large refiner or buyer will pay makes it a losing proposition, that is why most members cherry pick their scrap and sell on the rest, you can make money from refining at home but you either need free e scrap or karat gold or gold filled which means having the finances to buy up front or be lucky to have a constant source of free scrap.
Many have tried to reinvent this particular wheel and all eventually give up or move onto better things, spend time reading and learning the various methods employed to recover and refine the values and then determine if there is a better method for home refiners.


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## snoman701 (Dec 9, 2016)

So in the case of boardsort (easy example)....he's able to be successful because he's invested the money in the product and knows what any given category should historically produce, and thus can know how much he can safely spend to get the margins he wants....and all of this without anyone else, except those competitors that run their business the exact same, really knowing what those margins are.

Back to depopulation.

It is completely unnecessary and is done just to, in effect, capture the highest yielding parts and send the waste stream elsewhere. In terms of commercial scale processing, they could send a load of brown board in with a load of memory, and expect to get out exactly what they sent in? ie: the concentration / sorting is simply done for the packagers side, to develop the benchmarks. It offers no real advantage once it enters the furnace? (other than from the packagers side again, to present expectations of yield)


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2016)

snoman701 said:


> So in the case of boardsort (easy example)....he's able to be successful because he's invested the money in the product and knows what any given category should historically produce, and thus can know how much he can safely spend to get the margins he wants....and all of this without anyone else, except those competitors that run their business the exact same, really knowing what those margins are.
> 
> Absolutely 100 percent correct. You've nailed it.
> 
> ...



Again you've got the concept right. You could mix rubbish in with good yield product and know in advance the likely return. Given that, you wouldn't mix the two products because you would potentially get penalties applied across the whole batch which would penalise you on the better product. European refineries operate differently from far Eastern ones. The model and methods of those in the far east are far better for the guy getting the product. The hard bit is getting into those refineries.


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2016)

snoman701 said:


> So in the case of boardsort (easy example)....he's able to be successful because he's invested the money in the product and knows what any given category should historically produce, and thus can know how much he can safely spend to get the margins he wants....and all of this without anyone else, except those competitors that run their business the exact same, really knowing what those margins are.



To expand upon my answer posted above. You have read between the lines extremely well in my previous posts. In fact I initially included a line about people "in the know" talking to one another and chose to delete it. Yes if I was to have a conversation with Mario, we would probably feel comfortable discussing the yields because we both know the hard figures. Neither of us would have anything to lose because it's all there in black and white on our refinery returns. It's not about being clever, it's about actually getting on and doing it and being prepared to take the risk.


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## snoman701 (Dec 9, 2016)

Ok, so a serious question in regards to the development of the benchmarks.

I am very used to other fields which have the ability to run much smaller batches. Is the large batch just the scale of economy? Costs the same to run a truck full as it does to run 100 lbs...so might as well make it worthwhile? Do the pilot plants not exist for running smaller loads?

I can also look at his purchase price numbers and recognize that there is a certain "game" to it. Penalties in some categories and "rewards" in others....possibly even a bit of "what does he know that we don't"


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2016)

No it doesn't work the same in smaller quantities. For smaller quantities you pay a lot more. the logic is simple - it costs the same to fire up the refinery for 100Kg as for 5 tonnes.


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## snoman701 (Dec 9, 2016)

I think I am still a little confused as to the "refinery" vs the "smelter".

Refining side...I'm good (at least from a metallic alloy to marketable alloy perspective)

Smelter, not so much....and is this generally expected to be hand in hand with the refining side. Most smelters also refinery, but not every refinery smelts?

What goes in to the "furance"? Is it just non-ferrous metallic scrap with trace amounts of plastic? Or are the brominated boards themselves actually going in? The exhaust is scrubbed either way, but if the plastic is mechanically sorted prior, then you are not creating as hazardous of waste stream as you would be if you were scrubbing the bromine out after incineration.


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## anachronism (Dec 9, 2016)

I class refinery/smelter as the same entity.


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## snoman701 (Dec 9, 2016)

Ok...that makes sense. 

Any comment on the plastics, or unable?

Either way, thank you for all of your knowledge! You've helped me along quite a bit! I'm down to only 17 open screens!


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## gaurav_347 (Dec 10, 2016)

If you have large quantities of boards and you want to depopulate them, I would suggest you go for one of these Pcb dismantling machines. We use one in our plant. We can do 250 kgs per hour . The solder and mlccs get collected underneath the machine in a tray. You can recover both by simply heating the collected mixture in a tin pot. The solder will melt and all the mlccs will float over the top. You can simply scrape them while the solder is melted. For the larger components they get collected in the front tray. You can either sort them manually or use a classifier which is provided by the same company or you can simply manufacture one. you will also need a scrubber for the fumes! Our pcb dismantling machine runs on lpg/propane

If you need any other clarification please feel free to ask.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAFTYjlGTtg[/youtube]


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## kurtak (Dec 10, 2016)

First of all I don't think there is a lot more I can add to what Jon & Nick have posted as they have done a real good job of addressing your questions at this point --- However I did catch this one question that has gone unanswered 



snoman701 said:


> Do the pilot plants not exist for running smaller loads?



There are two companies that I am aware of here in the U.S. that do run smaller loads - one is Advanced Chemical in Warwick RI the other is Enviro-Chem in Rogers MN

Enviro-Chem I have done business with sending them loads between 500 pounds to 2,000 pounds & my returns (though always better then selling the boards out right) have been mixed results - meaning some loads came back with results I was very happy with (much better return then selling out right) some came back with good results - a "tad" under expected but not enough under to cry about (as I may have been a bit over optimistic) & a couple that I was disappointed with because though they came back better then selling out right it wasn't by much - however - in all fairness - that may well have been the result of my sending some rather low grade stuff in with the loads that would have been better left out

Enviro- Chem sheds - incinerates - smelts & then assays the smelt results - they pay on the copper, silver, palladium & gold - their process fees are 90 cents a pound for a load 1,000 pounds & over & $1.10 a pound for loads under 1,000 pounds (I think - its been awhile since I sent a load in under 1,000) they do not allow for witnessing nor do they provide samples for assay other then their own assay 

Advanced Chemical I have not done business with but I talked with them a few years ago so can't remember much as far as processing fees, batch size &/or payout rates & can't really comment on their services - however - based on their web site they provide a much better costumer relations then Enviro-Chem in that they allow you to witness your lot processing & they provide samples of your lot for independent assay (you can assay - or assay by independent lab) as well as an umpire sample in the event your assay & their assay are off by enough to justify umpire assay

Enviro-Chem web site :arrow: http://enviro-chemmn.com/ 

Advanced Chemical web site :arrow: http://advchem.com/index.php --- at the top of the home page you will see a link (button) for "videos" --- watch the one about "incineration" (as well as the others) the incineration video gives a good over view of their process from material in the door to settlement

As far as selling boards out right there are two companies I have done business with (other then boardsort)

Dynamic Recycling & IRT (Integrated Recycling Technologies) Dynamic is a LARGE volume handler of electronic scape - & - as well electronics that qualify for resale (this can be components like say certain RAM, CPUs hard drives etc. or whole units like lap tops, monitors etc.) 

Because Dynamic is a LARGE volume handler they have minimums you have to meet in order to get their "full payout" listed pricing - but if you can meet their minimums they are the best paying company I have found for "most" stuff --- I say most stuff because there was some stuff that IRT paid a bit better for & IRT "used to" pick up in my area where as Dynamic you had to deliver to - so I would play the two companies according to the best pay out --- then IRT quite doing pick up in my area so as long as I have to deliver it all goes to Dynamic as the price difference doesn't any longer justify doing two different deliveries

Dynamic web site :arrow: http://dynamicrecycling.com/

IRT web site :arrow: http://www.irtmn.com/IRT/index.html

Personally - I (like Jon & some others here) have gotten away from processing E-waste "other then" very high grade stuff & it has to come to me ready for processing & it has to be in volume to be worth while - I rarely process anything that requires time to get it the point of processing - It has to be REALLY high grade before I will put time into getting it to the processing stage --- other wise it gets sold to a buyer &/or sent for processing 

Hope that helped 

Kurt


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## snoman701 (Dec 10, 2016)

That's actually a lot cheaper than I was expecting, in terms of not only processing costs....but minimum load sizes. As in, it's almost to the point of making it viable to buy, cherry pick, resell the pickings that sell for more than actual value, then send the boards off to be recycled. I didn't realize that it was available in such "small processes". 

So what is an expected minimum load size for the "big guys"?


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## kurtak (Dec 10, 2016)

snoman701 said:


> So what is an expected minimum load size for the "big guys"?



40,000 pounds which is a semi load 

Kurt


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## anachronism (Dec 10, 2016)

Kurt it is somewhat different in Europe. Many refineries will take a 22,000 pound load and offer their best terms. However that is in the same order of magnitude as the 40,000 pounds you mentioned.

Edit: To put some perspective to this, a 22,000 pound load of board material is a complete 40 ft truck load with 24 x 6 ft packed stillages, and carries a cost in the region of $50,000 for a cross section of grades of boards (as an average.) Add in high grade telecoms or RAM into that mix and your outlay can be in the region of $100,000 to $150,000 per load.


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## snoman701 (Dec 10, 2016)

I just want to thank all of you again....this has been an enlightening thread!


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## niks neims (Feb 26, 2018)

Now this really was an awesome thread, great to see some numbers showing the scope refineries are taking loads in 

I am going to bump it up because one thing is missing - some particular info on refineries in the old world that offer to run smaller loads....

So how about it guys? Anyone "in the know" kind enough to share their knowledge? Are there similar refineries to "Advanced Chemical" or "Enviro-Chem" in Europe? Willing to take in loads around 250-1000 kg?

-Artūrs


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## slsmp40 (Mar 29, 2022)

snoman701 said:


> Jon,
> 
> Thanks for the response. You actually sound like you have just the knowledge I'm seeking.
> 
> ...


The Asian continent has a great many industrial centers that take apart boards for the components that are especially valuable. A lot of times they are the only way to obtain certain proprietary components, lots of chips hold great value in use. Lots of striped boards become donor boards so you can get your iPhone fixed after you drop it in a urinal and apple tells you to kick rocks. Grinding up everything and pyrolysis on everything is just leaving money on the table. I don’t like doing that. I like money.


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## markscomp (Apr 4, 2022)

Will Anachronism ever come back or has he moved on to bigger and better ventures. 
To quote 
snoman701​
Dec 10, 2016
Add bookmark
#26
I just want to thank all of you again....this has been an enlightening thread!


I agree we should keep the thread moving forward


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## Yggdrasil (Apr 4, 2022)

Anachronism, left the forum of his free will years ago. He is doing well, but is quite busy, according to him self.


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## markscomp (Apr 6, 2022)

Anachronism, left the forum of his free will years ago. He is doing well, but is quite busy, according to him self.


i know (and i agree)- spoke with him myself tried to talk him into returning - he is so busy right now he can't see right, left, up or down


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