# Better Pouring Skills



## Profikiskery (Apr 18, 2015)

Pouring bars to me is not coming easy. I am inconsistent as one can be, and not getting why as to yet. 

I am suspecting heat, but looking for some advice. I use Mapp Gas, unfortunately I can't find the model number of the torch I use, but it is right below the T-8000. Mine doesn't have the adjustable knob but it is the one right below that. 

A graphite standard mold that we have all seen, I have one that molds 1/4 oz, 1/2 oz, and 1 oz "KitKat" bars. I have another that is just a 1 oz rectangular bar. Before I pour I heat the mold and do keep it a good hot temperature. The bottom of my bars is not the problem, its the top. I can't get the sharp edges at the top of the bar I want, nor the "smoothness" at the top of my bars I am looking for. I have come to learn the farther the "lines" are the cooler the silver was when I poured. I have made much effort to ensure I am getting the silver as fluent as possible to pour, but still am not satisfied consistently, and I should be with the time I keep the torch on the silver. 

I do better with the smaller bars, 1/4 oz and such, but as I go up in weight, they get uglier in appearance. With the Mapp gas about all I can squeeze out getting good and hot is about an ounce max. I feel like I am making every effort to heat the silver..about 8 to ten minutes of torch on one ounce, but just doesn't seem consistently to cut the mustard. 

I guess my question is this. With what I am working with I have to pour IMMEDIANTLY and 40% of the time get the pour I want. But I have seen videos where someone can heat the silver, put down the torch, pick up the dish, then still pour a fine bar. It just seems like the silver stays hotter for a longer period of time. I am looking for that.

Is it my technique? Or do I not have the tools to get the results I am looking for and need. 

Specifics as to what you guys use would be appreciated. I am assuming something with O2 is best, but I can't seem to come across the ability to find access to the gas for dual tanks without a listed business license that is really effective. 

Craig


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## GotTheBug (Apr 18, 2015)

Without pictures it's hard to tell exactly, but I'll take a stab based on my own mistakes. If you are unable to adjust the air/fuel ratio on your torch, that may be part of the problem. Silver in a molten state will absorb oxygen, and the "bubbles" will escape as it cools, giving a grainy appearance to the top of the pour. An oxidizing flame, rich in fuel and lighter on the O2, is what you want to prevent the bubbles. Also, surface tension will always give a semi-rounded top to your ingot. A two piece mold or a heavy press would be required, I think, for a flat surface.

Go here and watch Palladium's silver videos, well worth the time!

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17233&p=202931#p202931

Paul.


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## Lou (Apr 19, 2015)

I believe Kadriver had a video. 

When we make nice bars, we weigh up shot and then melt inductively under argon blanket. Molds are preheated, as they fill up, we put a hydrogen flame on the solidifying silver. Come out smooth as glass.


Try getting an oxy propane setup. Melt with a slightly rich flame.


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## Palladium (Apr 19, 2015)

Need more btu's. Get you a ox-propane set up and use the small handheld for keeping you mold heated. Like Lou said kevin has some good video's on youtube.


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## Profikiskery (Apr 19, 2015)

I had watched both of their videos on refining but never got as far as the pouring part. Thanks guys...I already poured a few more after your advice and much better. 

I do want to get a new torch but am still working slowly on my fume hood. Baby steps I guess, but I am in no hurry. 

Sure do appreciate the advice and links. It seems to have helped.

Craig


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## Lou (Apr 24, 2015)

Key things for making the bars are:

1. Preheat the mold til it's quite hot (usually they're 700-900 F by our infrared thermometer gun thing
2. Soot the cast iron mold to release it (we bake on boron nitride spray/mold release for our graphite and our cast iron molds) and ensure good bottom surface quality. 
3. Pour smaller bars at a higher temperature
4. Use fused silica melting dish that's properly glazed for the silver.
5. Melt with a reducing torch flame so that the silver doesn't pick up oxygen which comes out of solution as a crabby, spiked appearance.
6. If at all possible, set up another reducing/borderline sooty flame on the mold to control solidification and ensure shiny glass-smooth appearance.


Make sure to melt the crystal into shot, dry it to constant mass, then weigh up your charge. 

As a rule, on 5 oz silver bars, an extra tenth of a gram, on 10 ounce bars an extra 2/10th if torch melting.
If melting inductively, a kilo bar gets a 1/3 of a gram more and same with 100 oz bar.

Lou


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## samuel-a (Apr 26, 2015)

This video can give some ideas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEGkoTc17Zw


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## Profikiskery (Apr 28, 2015)

Thanks guys. 

Due to the heat I have available I am only pouring at the most 1 ounce troy bars. They are starting to get prettier but still at times a white cloud or piece of flux to complicate things. I have tried the liquid fire with distilled water and that helped too. 

I do have a question. I have been considering a better torch. Propane and oxygen is what I am leaning toward. All the welding kits I have looked at are for acetylene and oxygen. Is it possible to use that acetylene tank for propane with those kits? 

Craig


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## rickbb (Apr 29, 2015)

No, you can't get a acetylene tank filled with propane, very bad idea, (if that's what you meant). And even if you could, the jets in the torch aren't made for propane. All different sizes of connectors, valves, orifices, pressures, etc. 

The oxy/propane will get way hotter than the melt point of silver. I use a MAPP/air torch for silver in a melting dish and for larger amounts in a crucible a large propane torch, (roofers torch), with forced air blown in the furnace.


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## Palladium (Apr 29, 2015)

This one right here comes with everything you need and hooks right up to both a bbq grill bottle or acetylene tank with no extra modifications needed. The only other thing you need is an ox bottle. Just make sure it's a Victor style and not a Harris style.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Welding-Kit-Victor-Type-Oxygen-Acetylene-Cutting-Torch-Burner-w-15-twin-hose-/231167246755?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35d2a441a3


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## Profikiskery (May 31, 2015)

Bingo...thanks Palladium and that one looks affordable as well. Just to make sure I got this straight....even though it says its an acetylene torch I can hook her up to the BBQ propane tank and I am safe. 

Thanks all for helping.

Craig


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## kadriver (May 31, 2015)

Here is how I pour silver bars;

https://youtu.be/umg3WSdPWHY

Here is what they look like when finished.

kadriver


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## Profikiskery (May 31, 2015)

Kadriver thanks and I love your videos. 

How the heck do you stamp like that? Any advice is appreciated. Do you use tape or mark with a marker or is that just by hand. Its truly amazing to me how good and professional it looks. I have tried on a few bars to stamp but it looks like kindergarten scribble . The letters are tilted a bit left or right and my alignment is not so good either. 

I might offer this idea for you. If I could stamp like that I would color the stamps with a fine black Sharpie marker. Then rub the excess with a soft towel and rubbing alcohol to clear the excess. It would make those bars pop!! Just my opinion and I am sure you know about it but just in case thought I would offer. Black on silver looks awesome.

Wondering about getting better results. Anyone?

Thanks

Craig


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## goldsilverpro (May 31, 2015)

I would think that any ink on the bars could be construed as contamination.


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## kadriver (May 31, 2015)

Profikiskery said:


> Kadriver thanks and I love your videos.
> 
> How the heck do you stamp like that? Any advice is appreciated.



I do wear a magnifier, plus I've stamped hundreds of these bars. The bright shiny surface of the bar is critical as I can gauge the placement of the letters next to each other by the reflection of the stamp off the bar.

If there are any rough surfaces, then the reflection is not available and the letter placement can get skewed.

I like the contrast of the letters finish against the luster of the bar - it's all silver metal, all the way around.

Thank you for your comments.

kadriver


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## jason_recliner (Jun 1, 2015)

Profikiskery said:


> How the heck do you stamp like that? Any advice is appreciated. Do you use tape or mark with a marker or is that just by hand. Its truly amazing to me how good and professional it looks. I have tried on a few bars to stamp but it looks like kindergarten scribble . The letters are tilted a bit left or right and my alignment is not so good either.


I used to batch-stamp fluorescent light inverters. Many hundreds of the things. Because there were three sizes I made a few simple jigs. Between two notched blocks of wood holding them in place and a rail over the top for the stamp to lean against, they would be straight as an arrow. On these silver bars you would use two rails for three text rows.
Each letter stamp was a square rod, which against the rail meant the letters would always be aligned as well for rotation as they are vertically. 'Kearning' or horizontal position was the only thing done by eye. (Separate words that it. Letters were bunched 3-5 characters at a time.)

BTW kadriver, those are some pretty looking bars.


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## Profikiskery (Jul 1, 2015)

Just bought me a new torch and its on the way. It was the one recommended above by Palladium. 

Have been attending a lot of Estate Sales to obtain sterling. As far as refining goes, my confidence has grown in the past few months. 

Have refined about 150 Troy Oz so far!! I could do more with the time I have, but funds are limited. Sell about 90% on Ebay to continue the hobby and try to put back 10% or a little more when able. I realize this is small scale but the education and joy I have gained has been tremendous. I have at least the basic equipment needed now, and starting to see a bit of a return since my spending has slowed down.

Can anyone recommend the next step to take? I am paying what I feel like is a lot for the scrap sterling. Wondering if there is a better yield in something else besides that, or what you guys might have had success with.


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## Profikiskery (Jul 6, 2015)

Torch arrived!!

Bunch of stuff, and I have just the basics of what all this stuff does and how to use it. Got 4.5 Lbs of propane with a new tank and 20 C.F. of oxygen. 

I haven't used it yet because I read I needed a different grade rubber hose for the propane and a different few tips for the propane as well. The two piece kind. Also suggested was flashback arrestors so I am waiting on those as well. 

Its a bit overwhelming to someone new. Many styles and tips and threads and sizes. On top of that its confusing as to each one's purpose. I am googling and reading and its just another step at getting better.

Questions...

I am going to replace the one piece tip on the main torch with the two piece recommended for propane. Are the smaller tips that came ok to use? 

Also included was what seems like a brazing tip. About a 1/4 inch round and can bee seen in the kit posted above. Can that be used?

What tip is the best suggested and do you guys use? 

I have been using Mapp Gas.....compared to that this flame from what I have read seems much longer and pinpointed. 

Any advice I appreciate. 

Craig


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## Palladium (Jul 6, 2015)

It should have come with a rose bud tip. It's about the size of a dime or nickle, round, and has about 10-12 holes around the outside and middle.

Something like this.


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## Profikiskery (Jul 8, 2015)

It sure did and thanks so much. You turned me on to a great deal. Looking forward to using it for sure!! Film at 11...


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## Palladium (Jul 8, 2015)

As a beginner that is the easiest one to use. The hose will degrade after about 6 months if you use it a lot, a year if you don't. Not the green one, but the red one. Once mine wear out i pull them apart and use the green hose as a supply line for my propane furnace. You can buy a replacement set for about $15. It will also degrade the o-rings in the torch valves after about 2 years ($2). You can just unhook the prone tank and regulator from you torch supply line and use the set up to run a crucible size furnace. A two in one tool for silver. 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20874&p=215733&hilit=furnace+propane#p215710


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## Profikiskery (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks so much.

Got everything hooked up today as my hose arrived as did my flash arrestors. I am excited to get started using them.

I have been in this forum and on google trying to get the information on PSI settings. When it comes to propane I get tons of information on converting...tips needed and whatnot, but cant seem to find much on what PSI to set with that rosebud tip for the oxygen or the propane. I have looked at several charts but as a beginner it might as well be written in Chinese. 

I have a bit of common sense and kinda know what I am looking for flame wise, but if anyone could recommend some tips I am all ears. Also, just experimenting with the flame, it seems very loud. 

I am sure with a little use I will learn, and become more comfortable. 

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time and insight. Just in the short time I have been here having you guys reach out to help I feel has given me a tremendous head start as opposed to being a Lone Wolf. Although so far I have limited myself to just silver, I have noticed I am getting more skilled. At first, I was losing as I acquired and invested. Now I am just starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel and this venture is starting to become profitable for me. I am pretty sure I have become an addict and need help. I just love everything involved.

Again any bone you guys can throw me is always appreciated, and I hope one day I will be able to contribute to this forum as well.

Thanks Palladium...you got me a great deal on those torches, and your help will be long remembered. I do still hope to shake your hand one day, as I get out to Centre quite a bit. Right next to Terrapin Creek I have been told. It would be my pleasure to buy you lunch!!

Craig


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