# my truck is broke any mechanics?



## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

1998 Chevy cargo van Vortec motor not sure what size
truck runs fine ran outta gas sitting at an idle today
I put 4 gallons off gas in it and now it wont start.

I can hear fuel pump working at least coming on 
pulled fuel filter and can get no gas from tank
Can Blow through where the fuel filter was and hear air coming in the tank but no bubbles

When you turn the motor over it sounds like there's no compression and almost like there's nothing in it um possibly a timing belt or mayb e we're thinking security now on the van

I have not checked for spark yet that'll. be tomorrow morning but I was hoping maybe somebody can shed some light any question answers will be most appreciated


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## Smack (Dec 13, 2012)

You gotta put more gas in than that bud, it takes quite a bit after running them out. It should pressure off when it gets fuel, if it keeps running it's not getting fuel. And that should be a 5.7L or 7.4L motor.


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## scrappile (Dec 13, 2012)

Should be a test port on the fuel rail, looks like an A/C port, try bleading it. trapped air in line on GM stuff is common

http://kiasportage.danielcadams.com/how-to-bleed-a-fuel-line/

has howto purge


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## Geo (Dec 13, 2012)

scrappile beat me too it.first, make sure the ignition switch is off. remove the negative cable from the battery and leave it off for about five minutes.this will reset the "brain" or the firing control module (be sure to replace the cable after five minutes). follow the fuel line and it will have a plastic cap over a threaded fitting somewhere near the top of the engine. it looks like the fill on an air conditioner line with a valve core. turn the ignition switch to "on" where the panel lights come on. use a small screw driver to push the valve in the middle of the fitting down. be sure to wear eye protection and gloves. wait until gasoline sprays out and remove the screw driver and replace the cap. it should start from there.


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 13, 2012)

yep. What Geo said. Disconnect battery. Fuel rail bleeder. Have someone turn on the key 5-200 times to get fuel pushing air outa the system. Not run the starter, just to Run position to make fuel pump run for it's couple few seconds to build pressure. Air compresses to much to build enough pressure to energize the injectors to let gas into the cylinders.
BS.


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## Anonymous (Dec 13, 2012)

If it's a fuel injected vehicle, running out of gas can cause the vehicle to not start ever again. It happened to my wife's mother's car. She ran out of gas, and when we put gas in it, it still wouldn't start. After taking it to the dealership, they told her that the injectors were gone, and she was better off getting a new car. It was a few years older than 1998. 

If your vehicle is indeed a fuel injected vehicle and you do get it started again, consider yourself lucky and do your best not to let it run out, because fuel injected vehicles are notorious for causing major problems once you run out of gas, and never starting again.


Kevin


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## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks everyone
I noticed I forgot one word "astro " Chevy astro cargo "Sorry
I think that makes it 4.3l not sure 
v6 not v8
I will try the bleeder valve thanks and put more gas in
Since I need to build pressure do I need to have the
gas cap on or is that the other side of a closed system
PS I have ran this particular truck out of gas 5 or 6 times and never needed more than a half a gallon to start but that was while driving not at an idle
thanks


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 13, 2012)

Astro vans are notoris for running outa gas...LOL... I mean the owners..

testerman, I'm guessing the dealership was more then eager to move her into a new car. I've never, in my 25 years of working on cars, ever heard of running a car out of gas and having it do any damage other then burning out the fuel pump form overheating it. I always did hate dealerships. Never and still refuse to go to 1 or to work for 1.
Now I could see talking a customer into another car if car in question was run into the ground to start with. Meaning it needed more $$$ then GOD to get it running the way it's designed.


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## Anonymous (Dec 13, 2012)

I used to own a Chevy Astro Van.. a '92. 3.8L V6 engine. Mine was a carburetor and no injectors. 




Pantherlikher said:


> Astro vans are notoris for running outa gas...LOL... I mean the owners..
> 
> testerman, I'm guessing the dealership was more then eager to move her into a new car. I've never, in my 25 years of working on cars, ever heard of running a car out of gas and having it do any damage other then burning out the fuel pump form overheating it. I always did hate dealerships. Never and still refuse to go to 1 or to work for 1.
> Now I could see talking a customer into another car if car in question was run into the ground to start with. Meaning it needed more $$$ then GOD to get it running the way it's designed.


I said fuel injected vehicles can, and do literally destroy the injectors if they run out of gas. Ask any CERTIFIED mechanic. Oldsmobile and Pontiac were other makes that was good for that too. 

I always thought "Why would they make vehicles and knowing that people do run out of gas, and if they do, it can render their car un-startable again?". I've talked to many people and they all say the same thing... If you have a fuel injected vehicle.... don't run out of gas. So far, I've owned 18 vehicles in my life, and the one I have now is fuel injected, yet, after a year of owning it, I never ran out of gas... yet. I don't take those chances with fuel injected vehicles at all. Even if it will start again, you stand a chance of having to spend hundreds of dollars just to replace to injectors, just to get it to start again.

If that van isn't a fuel injected vehicle and it won't start, then it sounds like the fuel pump may be at fault. Also, if it's a carburetor and it won't start, all you should have to do is take the top off of the carburetor and pour some gas in it and crank it up. It should kick start the vehicle. It that doesn't work, it's more than likely your fuel pump. 

TIP: Use only 93 octane for your vehicles. Anything less is doing your engine more harm than you can imagine. I've been using 93 octane for approximately 27 years now. No matter the cost, I pay for it. The other gas has more impurities in them, and in seasons like Winter and Summer, that cheap gas will effect your engine in a bad way. I know it costs more, but it's better than paying hundreds of dollars for towing and repairs.

Kevin

Kevin


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## Palladium (Dec 13, 2012)

Yeah i'm going to have to disagree with that injector thing myself. I to am a more than an experienced mechanic myself and have never heard of injectors being damaged from running out of gas. My family is from around Birmingham and the Huey town area. My brother builds engines for Nascar race teams, and my father was an old shade tree mechanic. I grew up working on cars in the shops and still work on all mine today. Not even remotely possible. Sounds like a good story for a new engine or a new car though. I would check that pressure at the fuel rail first and go from there.


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## ericrm (Dec 13, 2012)

i have nothing of a mecanics and maybe im the worst persons to listen but when my truck wont start , i push the gaz to the floor and turn it until battery is dead, half the time it work the other half is something serious that need someone else attention...


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## Geo (Dec 13, 2012)

Palladium is right, the dealership just wanted to sell a car.injectors can be damaged in a couple of different ways but running out of gas isnt one of them. the dealership and the manufacturer says you cant flush an injector either, you have to buy a new one. for an eight cylinder engine, that can run up a bill of over $2,000 or more. 

try running a diesel engine out of fuel, like the old Cummings in the cab over international harvester i drove for many years.talk about a pain in the butt. you had to prime the fuel line from the injectors back to the fuel tanks. :lol:


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 13, 2012)

The 1998 chevy cargo can with Vortec motor has a spider injector system.
main distribution system with "legs" running into the injector end which is only an orafic. Replacing those cost 2k or so. But they require alot of pressure, 8PSI and up. Air in the system compresses way to much for it to function so bleeding the line will start it. Provided you only ran it outa gas.
You stated you hear the buzzing fuel pump so it's pumping. just pushing against air. Other then being a pain to get restarted, running out og gas also sucks up dirt and sludge buildup as well as water. Can cause problems that way but will start with effort.
Running several independant repair shops, I've seen way to many vehicles get towed in only to put 2 very expensive gals. of gas in and drive it to a gas station.


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## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks guys
After searching the net,I had the idea of posting my
question here, my buddy say's "hu! there just
I bunch of gold getting guys what would they know "
I replied. "You still don't get it and probably never
Will! These guys and gals are a group of some of the
top minds in the world,they are by far more 
experienced in technical,mechanical,engineeriing,
Work arounds and problem solving than any other
Group I have ever seen and to top It off there just
Good hearted individuals that want to help others
Or they wouldn't be here"
Thanks guys I will attempt to bleed the air

PS I have heard the same myths of injecter damage
and such


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## Palladium (Dec 13, 2012)

I think that's his problem. I couldn't see it being anything else besides the pump after that. If the problem started as a direct result of something to do with the gas then i would bet it's in your fuel delivery system. All them injectors shouldn't stop up at once. Bleed it and go from there. If you have no pressure on the rail then it's your pump. But it is possible to have some pressure on the rail but not enough to open the injector like he said. For that you will need a fuel pressure tester or a good eye for diagnosis. To see if it's a fuel system problem you can hit it with a shot of ether and if you hear it hit then you know it's firing and it's a fuel delivery problem. To see if your getting fuel from the tank pull the hose off the fuel filter, stick it in a container, and turn the key on for a second to see if you have fuel.


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## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

One more thing
When I had only 2 gal of gas and listend
for the pump. What I heard can only be related to
a sump or ejection pump in the basement of a house
kicking on due to more water raising the float
Then shutting off as the float sank. And the water in
The vertical pipe draining back into the pump chamber
I guess this makes sense if the air is being compressed
and then the gas coming back into the tank


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## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

Palladium you asked about or said the fuel filter off
Turn key to prime pump
This is the first thing I tried :no gas came out
But I could here the pump. That's why I posted
I draw a blank

I also blew air from the fuel filter connection and could
Here it, feel it coming out the gas filler(gas. Cap)


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## Smack (Dec 13, 2012)

steyr223 said:


> Thanks guys
> After searching the net,I had the idea of posting my
> question here, my buddy say's "hu! there just
> I bunch of gold getting guys what would they know "
> ...



I've done many different things in my life, to include being and working as a certified mechanic. Key up pressure on those 4.3L's should be between 45-52psi then drop to around 47psi when running. I know sometimes the in-tank fuel pumps will blow the line off of it's self and just spray fuel around in the tank and never get any up the line. You might have to take the fuel pump out and see if this is what happened. Can you hear any fuel spaying in the tank with the cap off? One good thing about not having much gas in it is it won't be too heavy dropping it.


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## bigjohn (Dec 13, 2012)

If your car key has a chip in it, its equipped with anti theft. Sometimes the anti theft will geek out. A way past that is turn the key to the run position and let it sit that way for 30 min. After that it should start, if it's the anti theft messing with you.


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## bigjohn (Dec 13, 2012)

Should have mentioned that when the anti theft is active it will stop your fuel pump and cut spark to the engine


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## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

No pressure at valve (shreader)
but I believe I can hear the pump working in the carburetor (I see no plumbing for injectors
but I am blind) throttle body maybe

The valve I pushed in is right above the 3 spark 
plug wires coming off the distributor
To the left bottom of pic

I have spark

Thanks. Steyr223 rob


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## Geo (Dec 13, 2012)

try spraying a little starter fluid in the intake to get it started. it may be a relay. the fuel system requires a certain amount of pressure to work right. theres a pressure regulator that regulates the amount of gasoline returned to the tank when the engine is running. if the regulator isnt working right it cant build pressure. most are built into the filter. the filter will have three lines,two from the tank and one to the engine.one from the tank is high pressure and the other is low pressure or the return line to the tank. the line to the engine is high pressure. gasoline is pumped up to a certain pressure and the pump stops until the pressure is reduced and then it starts again. if the regulator is malfunctioning, the gas is just pumping in one side and being returned to the tank on the other without building pressure. make sure your vehicle's fuel filter has the built in pressure regulator and replace it first. if this does not fix the problem, find the pressure requirements on the fuel system and buy an inline fuel pump. place inline behind the fuel filter. it requires a 12v wire from the electrical system but at this stage its just diagnostic, so run a wire from the hot post on the battery. make sure the wire is fused rated for the pump. make sure the pump is installed and any drip are dry before connecting the power. connect the power and wait a few seconds and try to start the engine.

by the way. the inline pump will pull gas through the old pump. flow is directional so gas can be pulled through a pump but not backwards.


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 13, 2012)

Put more gas in and retry the valve. You said there sounded like the pump was running. Running outa gas is a pain but it should only be too low on gas to suck enough into the lines. 2 gal aint much in a gas tank. You could ether it and it should start to run but if there is not enough gas for the pump to suck up, it'll never run for long...maybe spit n spudder.


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## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

It never missed a beat from one stroke perfect to
Shut off with the next

It now has 4+ gal of gas
I would assume either the hose blew off thepump
in the tank or the pump comes on but doesn't work
Right

Geo I have heard my mechanic talk about the pressure
Regulator but then the pump wouldn't even kick right


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## butcher (Dec 13, 2012)

If a big fuel tank and truck sitting on hill you may still not be picking up fuel in the tank even if everything else is ok try more fuel first, since the problem started by running out of fuel.

You can have a regulator on the pump and one on the fuel rail, some of these pumps can produce high pressures up to around 75 PSI. different vehicles are different, you can have one that will pump gas just a short time 12v signal through a relay from the ECM engine control module running fuel pump few second to get engine started when ignition key is first turned , then the oil pressure switch bypasses the fuel relay giving the fuel pump 12 volts as long as engine is running and oil pressure is up, some of the vehicles have an inertia switch the will kill power to the fuel pump if tripped (accident or passenger kicked dash (tripping inertia switch relay.

Some vehicles the fuel pump runs as long as ignition is on the regulator just keeps pressure maintained and fuel is recycled back to the tank,
There are several variations of how the electrical and fuel system operate.

check for voltage close to fuel pump, if no voltage check fuses relays, switches wires, if voltage and you hear humming when listening in tank the power off disconnect fuel line (at engine first) then close to tank turn on fuel pump briefly if fuel there but not at engine check fuel filter,

if pump runs but no fuel, motor to fuel pump could be good, but pump can be bad, drop gas tank test and replace fuel pump.


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## steyr223 (Dec 13, 2012)

thanks guys maybe we should change the
Site name to goldrefiningandproblemsolversform.com
:shock: 
What's you think Noxx? :lol:

I just finished scrapping a couple hundred lbs
of stainless, aluminum, brass and some copper
Windings from motors (yea I know ,ick)
Hey I'm desperate :mrgreen: 
Point is I made enough to fix the truck(it's nice when
You break down 30' from the scrap yard)

In the morning I will put say 4 more gallons in (only 8
Trips to gas station with my. 2lt coke bottle)  :lol: 
If that doesn't fix I'll drop tank
Thanks Steyr223. Rob


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## steyr223 (Dec 14, 2012)

Just to clear something up
I know how to work on cars pretty good
Except my own.
maybe it's being the hero or coming to the rescue
I am calm cool and confident I will get YOUR car fixed 

back in the 90's I installed a new timing belt on my
200sx, my mechanic friend came over and told me
the camshaft doesn't go in the window :shock: 

We decided I should never work on my own car.


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## Geo (Dec 14, 2012)

if the regulator has gone out, the pump will still pump. the pump is pumping the whole time.the regulator is suppose to restrict the flow in the return line to build pressure in the high pressure line going to the engine.if the fuel system is rated for 8psi the the pump may pump up to 12psi, its up to the regulator to let the correct amount of gas to bypass the system and be returned to the tank. if the regulator is malfunctioning, it can either stop up, building too much pressure on the system and the sensor will shut the system down to keep from damaging the injectors. or it can be wide open letting all the gas bypass the filter returning all the gas back to the tank and not building any pressure.

replace the filter first as thats where the regulator is. no need to drop the tank for that. maybe a 3/8 deepwell socket and ratchet and a pair of pliers. the a special tool to remove the fuel line locks but the parts store will loan you one for a deposit.


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## tek4g63 (Dec 14, 2012)

Also, if you can, try to prime the system. That is, try putting gas into the filter and as much as you may be able to pour into the lines leading to the pump. This may not be possible on your vehicle depending on where the filter and fuel lines are located. But if there is any way that you could get some gas poured into the lines leading to your pump I'm sure it would help. Because your pump could be cavitating, these pumps are not made to pump air.

For example, my fuel filter is located on the fire wall, passengers side, under the hood. Its mounted vertical and has a hard line in and flexible line out. ( my fuel rail is a straight through deal, pressurized gas goes in one end, regulator on other end with the return line. ) when I bought this car it had been sitting for years with no gas in the tank. I dropped the tank and cleaned it out. ( very bad smell) and when I replaced it and filled it up I wasn't getting any gas to the rail. That's when I removed my hose on the out side of the filter and poured gas in the filter until it over flowed. ( Pour slow as it will bubble or burp and splash a bit while it fills the line ) That primed the high pressure line all the way to the pump. Then for good measure I removed the return line from the fuel rail and poured gas in there too. As you can imagine it never filled up  . After the line was primed and everything put back together it started up with no problem.

Good luck man! Hope to hear the good news that it is running.
Thad


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## butcher (Dec 14, 2012)

tek4g63.
As far of these as I know most all of these fuel pumps are self priming, maybe the pump diaphragm was stuck gummed up (from dried out gas), and pouring gas helped to dissolve the gum, no matter it seemed to have worked.


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## steyr223 (Dec 15, 2012)

Primed with break cleaner ran untilled I stopped
spraying
dropping tank have issue

The nuts to the 3 lines have to be disconnected
right where they enter the tank have some kind
of weak ass looking plastic nuts

I'm not delicate, I'm a breaker how do these come
off

Possibly somekind of seal that you can still spin
in plumbing these are called sharkbite fittings or
Pled
phones gunna die, no way to charge thanks


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## scrappile (Dec 15, 2012)

Removing the fuel pump from a GMC Safari van is not a job for the faint of heart. It can be done by the shade tree mechanic but must be done carefully and methodically. The real issue with removing this fuel pump is that, like many GMC models, the pump is in the fuel tank. Getting the pump out is relatively simple. Getting to the pump is a serious undertaking. 

http://www.astrosafari.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=6416

edit to add

Step 14. Now it is time to remove the fuel pump / sending unit assembly. I accomplished this with a brass drift punch. Use the punch and a hammer to rotate the lock ring counter clock wise until it lines up with the notches in the top of the tank.


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## Smack (Dec 15, 2012)

And don't forget the fuel line tool. They sell cheap one's at the auto parts stores.


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## Geo (Dec 15, 2012)

if you dont trust your self with a pair of pliers, get one of these. fuel line disconnect tool.


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 15, 2012)

Hopefully you're getting there with better luck then I always seem to have not being in a shop to do all of this. Something always breaks not forseen.
It is a Chevy Astro van. Not a GMC Safari. Close and hopefully the same you will find as instructed. 
Safety precaution tip: Put a rag over the hammering device so as to Not cause a spark and be warmer then you wish to be! Brass punch works wonders here.
The tool thingy in the picture is about the only way those fittings come apart without breakage. You slide it inside the fitting and pull it apart. It slides in and flattens out the holding plastic tabs that hold it together. Pain in the butt but is easy when done right.
Unfortunately my guess is having run the pump empty alot might have caused it to self destruct the impeller blades. Be prepairs if you don't see anything obvious to replace the pump.
BS.
Despise not having the right tool for the JOB.


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## scrappile (Dec 15, 2012)

GM and GMC products come down the same Assembly line,...


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## steyr223 (Dec 16, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies guys
I finally made a right choice, I just had it towed to
My mechanics and now that my phone is somewhat
Charged I look at all the posts on what a pain it is
And yes I would have burned my truck straight to
H311 so my mechanic seems pretty cheap but I
Have to purchase the parts with cash before I am extended credit
on labor (I owe $180.00 still)
The reason I stated this is because I'm sitting
In the back of my van right now breaking
Cutting, splitting, and depopulating boards so
I can pay him. On Monday.
I figure about. 5 or 6 gram process would be
Good
thanks. I will let you know
Steyr223 rob
PS my shoulders been hurting when I no......
....... :lol:


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## Pantherlikher (Dec 16, 2012)

It's the wisest of men whom know for certain he is in over his head and askes for help before it is too late to take back regret.
BS.
Still waiting for the voices to aggree on 1 answer.


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## steyr223 (Jan 4, 2013)

Truck is up and running
Thanks for all the help everyone


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## Anonymous (Jan 4, 2013)

steyr223 said:


> Truck is up and running
> Thanks for all the help everyone


What was the actual problem?

Kevin


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## niteliteone (Jan 5, 2013)

steyr223 said:


> Truck is up and running
> Thanks for all the help everyone



Hey steyr223,
What was wrong with the van???

Back in August my 01 Silverado quit working also. Acted like it ran out of gas but it had a half a tank. I would squirt a few shots into the throttle body and it would run for a few seconds, then die.

I stuck a bore scope down the fuel filler and could see the fuel pump slightly under the fuel. When I would turn the key on I could see it spray fuel all over inside the tank.
Turns out the short rubber hose that connects the fuel pump to the fuel line had deteriorated and split.

When talking with the parts house they told me that it was a problem that is spreading all over the country right now. It seems that the rubber hose is NOT alcohol resistant. Any state that mandates the alcohol blended fuel will have an astronomical amount of these problems.

Many web sites talk about older vehicles having fuel system related problems that have gone crazy as time passes in states that mandate alcohol blended in the fuel.

Kinda sucks for owners of older vehicles and to many mechanics and dealers really take advantage of the people with the fuel related problems.

The replacement hose will be resistant to the alcohol but the alcohol will still destroy the hose eventually. So all be warned that is is a new common problem on all vehicles.

Good luck guys. hope this helps anyone that comes across a similar problem.


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## jimdoc (Jan 5, 2013)

niteliteone said:


> steyr223 said:
> 
> 
> > Truck is up and running
> ...



The Tesla Model S is looking better and better everyday. If they could just make them fast enough, so you don't have to wait three years for one. And the $100,000 price tag is out of reach, so that coming down would be nice also. Some day soon they can keep their oil.

Jim


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## steyr223 (Jan 6, 2013)

Fuel pump
Just like everyone thought


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## steyr223 (Jan 6, 2013)

Sorry just read last two posts
Even if it was the hose or something
Similar, I still got charged for a fuel pump

My mechanic is honest I have known him for
30 years
But,
My attitude wasn't the best and I told him it
Was a fuel pump and told him I already did the
Diagnostic Process and told him it would be
$283.00 + labor and tax
Opps :lol: 
Who is he to say I am wrong
Anyways his books show me being negative for
$250.00 from previous times
Maybe I'm looking at some really good deals
in the future. 8)
thanks Steyr223 rob


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## butcher (Jan 11, 2013)

A good mechanic will do his own diagnostics, he cannot rely on what others say or think is wrong.
Its like us when we buy metal we need to test it for ourselves just to be sure we get things right.
Having your truck back is worth the troubles.


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## artart47 (Jan 11, 2013)

Hi! 
Eight years ago, van, fuel pump going bad, they told me between $400 and $500 to replace it.
It finally gave out in a restaurant parking lot. I ran a cord out from the building and took my grinder and cut a hole in the floor.
I took the pump carrage out in 45 mins. walked to the parts store $130 for the pump, took me an hour to get it back togrther.
Later I put the metal back and patched the hole. The machanics said they woulden't go thru a hole in the floor, they would only do it by dropping the tank and they wanted between $450-500.
artart47


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## butcher (Jan 11, 2013)

Why do they not put access panels, (art I have used that trick on some of my old vehicles), It seems they ways put the part way back under everything where you cannot even get to it (you cannot see it but sometimes you can reach your arm in there and feel it, if your hands weren't as big as mine),why do they make it so we have to take everything apart to reach it, it is like they build the car around the parts that go bad, people who design them should have to work on them before they let them play with the pencils.


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## Anonymous (Jan 13, 2013)

butcher said:


> Why do they not put access panels, (art I have used that trick on some of my old vehicles), It seems they ways put the part way back under everything where you cannot even get to it (you cannot see it but sometimes you can reach your arm in there and feel it, if your hands weren't as big as mine),why do they make it so we have to take everything apart to reach it, it is like they build the car around the parts that go bad, people who design them should have to work on them before they let them play with the pencils.


Designers trick. They make things like that so you are forced to take it to get serviced and pay $500 for something you could have done for $100 + a little bit of your time.

Look at the many things now that are, and have been "Factory Sealed". I took apart many things like that and fixed them myself. 

It's all about the Benjamins. Multiples of them too. Soon we'll be able to toss a 1 Trillion Dollar coin to pay for things.  

Kevin

*[UPDATE]* The Treasury Department announced they're scrapping the 1 Trillion Dollar Coin minting. Seriously. Oh well, full cash it is to pay.


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## Geo (Jan 13, 2013)

many things today are engineered that way due to corporate espionage.proprietary systems or designs or company secrets designed so the the unit can not be reverse engineered.it must be destroyed before it can be dismantled.


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## Smack (Jan 13, 2013)

Just one of the many ways to bend the public over and protect and or increase their wealth. As of Jan. 10 2013 from the Bailout the Treasury has earned $70.8 Billion on its investments through dividend payments, and $1.8 billion through its loans through interest payments. This fall under the category of Income so how much did they have to pay in income tax? The Government still owns 61% of GM.


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