# Anyone here takes a shower with his necklace?



## Moshey (Feb 13, 2016)

Wanted to know if anyone here also takes a shower with his gold necklace? Or you takes it off?


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 13, 2016)

I've moved this post here since it has nothing to do with recovery and refining, but it is marginally about precious metals.

Dave


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## upcyclist (Feb 16, 2016)

Sure, I'll bite. 

I don't wear a gold necklace, but almost never take my rings/watch/med ID off. But they're Argentium (Sterling), titanium, and stainless steel


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## ssabovic (Feb 16, 2016)

Hi,anything contain nickel can affect your skin (white gold,fake jewelry.....)in combination with water and soap.some people are more sensitive than others.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Feb 17, 2016)

Also, in jewelry where cheap metals were used to karat gold, or to make gold harder at a higher karat, or in silver as well that is alloyed with metal that oxidize, you might find skin irritation.

Also in poorly made jewelry, specially sterling silver, where the artist has heated the metal too hot, firescale sometimes forms on the surface. This is the copper in sterling silver, coming to the surface. That could also cause skin irritation or discoloration. You can see scale if you look closely, they will look a little darker in color, like a light grey cloud on the surface of the piece.







Correctly made, high quality alloy jewelry made with Gold and/or Silver should not turn your skin colors, nor should your skin react to it. Some metals that are toxic or an irritant are used in some jewelry alloys, such as nickel to harden gold, and should be avoided when possible. If you purchase jewelry from an established retailer, ask them about the alloy composition. Many places have an XRF on site and can quickly determine the alloy used in a piece of jewelry.

Scott


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## upcyclist (Feb 17, 2016)

NobleMetalWorks said:


> If you purchase jewelry from an established retailer, ask them about the alloy composition. Many places have an XRF on site and can quickly determine the alloy used in a piece of jewelry.



And be prepared to pay significantly more for palladium white gold than for the usual stuff. Nickel is $3.75/lb, palladium is $514/ozt


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## NobleMetalWorks (Feb 17, 2016)

upcyclist said:


> NobleMetalWorks said:
> 
> 
> > If you purchase jewelry from an established retailer, ask them about the alloy composition. Many places have an XRF on site and can quickly determine the alloy used in a piece of jewelry.
> ...



I don't know about significantly more, most white gold alloys only contain about 12% palladium, although this percentage varies greatly as there is no set standard for white gold except the gold content. 

If you have a 20g white gold ring, made up of 12% of palladium, you have 2.4 grams of palladium.

Pd current spot price is about $16 per gram.

2.4 grams x $16 per gram = 38.40 worth of Pd in a 20 gram white gold ring. I would say that is far from being significant, and if you plan on wearing the ring for the rest of your life, like a wedding ring, the extra $38.40 is not significant at all.

In a sterling silver/palladium alloy there is only 3% pd. If we are talking about a silver ring, they can range anywhere from 1g - 150g with 150g being very uncommon. A silver fork weighs between 20g - 25g. Lets use an example that makes sense. A man's silver ring, I have one right here as a matter of fact, it weighs 11.8 grams. 

3% of 11.8 grams comes out to be 354 milligrams.

Pd current spot price is about $16 per gram.

$16 x .354 = about $5.66 but lets just round it off to $6.00. So the total cost of the palladium, in a regular man's silver/palladium ring is under $6.00.

Another solution is to purchase Argentium sterling silver, which is 95.84 silver, with copper and germanium making up the difference. The germanium prevents fire scale, thus preventing the oxidized copper from forming on the surface even if annealed incorrectly. It's more forgiving plus it has a higher silver content. If I were buying silver jewelry, this is what I would probably purchase if not making my own alloys.



Scott


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## nickvc (Feb 18, 2016)

Allergic reactions to jewellery are fairly common but some people seem to have a lot more problems than others. Nickel is a common problem and here within the EU there is a requirement for any alloys sold to pass a nickel release test before it can be sold to the public.
Some people seem to be able to wear almost any metal but I have known people who are allergic to lower karated gold alloys and silver. One problem in all jewellery can be porosity in the metal,another the build up of oil,dead skin and dirt in crevices and behind stone settings which contact the skin and set off reactions, simple soap water and an old tooth brush will cure most of that problem.
Another factor in silver jewellery made in less safety conscious places is the use of cadmium solders in silver jewellery making and poor materials used in the alloys.
For all my advice is to keep your jewellery clean and if as a rule you have problems with jewellery then buy stainless or titanium which few if any have problems with.


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## ssabovic (Feb 18, 2016)

stainless have nickel too in composition,
regards


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## nickvc (Feb 18, 2016)

Nickel release rates are what cause the allergies, most cutlery and many cooking vessels are made of stainless and cause no problems because the nickel release rates are so good.


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## FrugalRefiner (Feb 18, 2016)

NobleMetalWorks said:


> upcyclist said:
> 
> 
> > NobleMetalWorks said:
> ...


Jewelers in my area don't sell anything at cost. Once you add their markup, the cost difference does indeed become more significant.

Dave


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## NobleMetalWorks (Feb 18, 2016)

nickvc said:


> Allergic reactions to jewellery are fairly common but some people seem to have a lot more problems than others. Nickel is a common problem and here within the EU there is a requirement for any alloys sold to pass a nickel release test before it can be sold to the public.
> Some people seem to be able to wear almost any metal but I have known people who are allergic to lower karated gold alloys and silver. One problem in all jewellery can be porosity in the metal,another the build up of oil,dead skin and dirt in crevices and behind stone settings which contact the skin and set off reactions, simple soap water and an old tooth brush will cure most of that problem.
> Another factor in silver jewellery made in less safety conscious places is the use of cadmium solders in silver jewellery making and poor materials used in the alloys.
> For all my advice is to keep your jewellery clean and if as a rule you have problems with jewellery then buy stainless or titanium which few if any have problems with.



Silver is actually antimicrobial and antibacterial. Stainless is one of the worst metals to wear not because of the possibility of certain other metals that are toxic to humans being in the alloy, specially with jewelry stainless steel alloys, but because bacteria and microbes love stainless steel. If dead skin cells are a serious concerns, accumulating in the crevices and cracks of a metal, then silver trumps everything except perhaps copper which is a close second. 

If you take a sq inch sample of the same thickness, of these metals, fine silver, sterling silver, copper at over 99% purity, stainless steel of any alloy variety that is recognized as being industry standard, iron, zinc, nickel, chromium. And then introduced a bacteria sample to each of these one inch squares of metal, and then keep the samples in the exact same conditions, but separate from each other you would find that on all other metals, other than copper and silver, that the bacteria literally thrived. Yet on the copper and silver you will find that they have died.

This is science, not some belief in metals as being magical. Silver has very specific properties that make it ideal as an antimicrobial/antibacterial, I could cite many studies that have been done on the subject, or you could simply just google it yourself. Gold as well, has some amazing properties in regards to human health, and what can be done with gold molecules is simply amazing. I believe we have a member of this forum who did work in college in regards to gold and cancer if I remember right.

To be totally honest about it, stainless steel is one of the worst possible things you could wear close to your skin if you are sensitive to certain microbial life that thrives on dead skin cells caught in the cracks and crevices of jewelry worn close to the skin.

You are totally right about the cadmium in silver jewelry. But it's not from the silver solder used. It's in the silver itself. This is not a problem so much with older silver jewelry but with cheaply manufactured silver jewelry mostly. Silver artists obtain the silver they use for their work, from one of only a very few and limited sources. It's not as if there were 100s of producers of silver findings for jewelers that make their jeweler by hand. It's where silver jewelry is mass produced that you find relative traces of cadmium.

Cadmium is alloyed with silver for specific reasons, one is so that the silver is more resistant to oxidation, in electrical contacts this prevents electrical arcs from oxidizing, and eating away at the silver contact, which would make it pit and cause a less efficient contact. In cheap silver jewelry that was manufactured, because the cadmium % can be alloyed down by adding more silver, using the silver contacts directly, without refining the cadmium out first is okay so far as the manufacturer is concerned. 

So if the cadmium percentages are below a certain amount in the alloy, they don't need to concern themselves with removing all of it. Because of the dangers that cadmium present, refiners pay less for cadmium silver, usually. If a jewelry manufacturer is buying silver contacts but instead of refining them, using them for sterling silver alloys without refining, they purchased the silver for less than pure silver would cost, and not incurring the cost of refining. They test for a certain alloy percentage, and then get as close to they can to tolerances so that it is legal.

A certain amount of cadmium will vaporize when the silver is melted, so they attempt to account for this. Some is spilled, a manager thinks he can shave off a little more over here, or doing this or that, and pretty soon the cadmium content is higher. Then when the silver is bought back through recycling streams, which do not do a great job of regulating themselves, it is considered sterling silver of a specific alloy, and then used to up the silver content in high cadmium percentage alloy, you get the picture.

I make high quality alloys for jewelers specifically because of these issues with metals that are purchased through questionable means. There are jewelers out there that appreciate knowing exactly where the metal they use comes from. I do charge a little more than what I might for pure metal because it needs to be alloyed specifically, that means no long melts and adding metal so that it alloys properly, etc etc. But not anything significant enough to make any real change in the cost of the jewelry made from it. These jewelers do charge more, but considering everything is hand made by them, that they know exactly where their metal comes from, and the exact percentages of the metals in each of their rings alloys, they should be charging more. They are putting more labor and time into each sale than what is industry standard, they explain more about the metal, the stone, etc. I'm not big on wearing jewelry, although I do have an affinity for silver, but the way I feel about jewelry is that you buy what you would wear for life, you buy what you really like, and if those two things don't require the very highest quality of materials and time/effort invested in creating it, then you should be treating yourself a little better.

I also value knowing the person who made my jewelry, that means something to me. Jewelry is such a personal thing, it seems crazy to me that we value buying a piece of manufactured jewelry from a dept store or large jewelry store chain over buying from a small business owned by the person making your jewelry. But it is many times. Regardless, this is a case of "you get what you pay for" and it should be. If you do not value an artists work, you are going to have garbage to choose from and it will be your fault.

Scott


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## upcyclist (Feb 18, 2016)

NobleMetalWorks said:


> I make high quality alloys for jewelers specifically because of these issues with metals that are purchased through questionable means. There are jewelers out there that appreciate knowing exactly where the metal they use comes from. I do charge a little more than what I might for pure metal because it needs to be alloyed specifically, that means no long melts and adding metal so that it alloys properly, etc etc. But not anything significant enough to make any real change in the cost of the jewelry made from it. These jewelers do charge more, but considering everything is hand made by them, that they know exactly where their metal comes from, and the exact percentages of the metals in each of their rings alloys, they should be charging more. They are putting more labor and time into each sale than what is industry standard, they explain more about the metal, the stone, etc. I'm not big on wearing jewelry, although I do have an affinity for silver, but the way I feel about jewelry is that you buy what you would wear for life, you buy what you really like, and if those two things don't require the very highest quality of materials and time/effort invested in creating it, then you should be treating yourself a little better.



I agree--that's where I'd like to go with my refining, as I'm already there with my gemcutting. I prefer working with people who value their craft, and take sourcing seriously. 

Most of the complaints I see from wearers about metals is the copper and the nickel. With the copper, it's almost more cosmetic--it turns their skin green and they don't like it. One of the advantages of Argentium (though probably not as important as the patent owner makes it out to be lol) is that the germanium oxide layer not only protects the metal from the air (less tarnish), but protects the wearer from the metal. It's great for casting, but definitely requires a bit more finesse in some smithing situations. I can be pretty brittle when it's hot. On the upside, it also fuses well (similar to fine silver), so you don't have to solder everything.


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## NobleMetalWorks (Feb 18, 2016)

upcyclist said:


> I agree--that's where I'd like to go with my refining, as I'm already there with my gemcutting. I prefer working with people who value their craft, and take sourcing seriously.
> 
> Most of the complaints I see from wearers about metals is the copper and the nickel. With the copper, it's almost more cosmetic--it turns their skin green and they don't like it. One of the advantages of Argentium (though probably not as important as the patent owner makes it out to be lol) is that the germanium oxide layer not only protects the metal from the air (less tarnish), but protects the wearer from the metal. It's great for casting, but definitely requires a bit more finesse in some smithing situations. I can be pretty brittle when it's hot. On the upside, it also fuses well (similar to fine silver), so you don't have to solder everything.



You're right about argentium, it is far more difficult to work with and is different enough from sterling as to require experience with it. I have used it in mokume gane as well, it's slightly more difficult to get it to fuse properly. And forget about using it to raise metal. It's only really good for jewelry where it doesn't need too much annealing and/or working. Fine silver is still easier to work with in my opinion, sterling is less forgiving. Argentium doesn't solder as easy as sterling, nor fuse together as easy as fine silver but it does both moderately well.

I raise copper and silver, and make jewelry as well, it's stone cutting that I have no experience or very little knowledge of. I do however acquire stones, I have several that need cutting or I would like to be cut. Maybe we can exchange information and do some business. =)

Anyway, cheap alloys usually cause issues, quality alloys rarely if the artist treated the metal correctly. Always best to buy handmade where the metal is known, and worth whatever the cost increase might be specially since you purchase jewelry for life usually. Not only this, but you are supporting smaller businesses and artists that otherwise might be toiling away in a basement somewhere making garbage and not able to express themselves artistically. There are a lot of metal artists, but far fewer then their used to be.

I have been learning black smithing as well, trading work making laminated steel billets for learning black smithing. And I want to learn welding as well. And geology, mineralogy, it is never ending. But I have found that once you understand metal, all the rest seems to come far easier. 

Scott


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## nickvc (Feb 18, 2016)

Scott I'm not going to argue with you over the use of stainless for jewellery but as its used as internal devices for humans it can't be that bad.
I agree silver and copper have anti bacterial properties but that doesn't mean we can all wear it, our bodies and their internal organs make use of bacteria and are host to billions of them internally and externally, we carry good and bad bacteria, all of us, it's not simple to know what works for all.
Having sold stainless steel wedding rings and titanium I never had a problem from customers, gold and silver yes, so who knows the reasons, maybe we need a doctor to tell us why...


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## upcyclist (Feb 22, 2016)

nickvc said:


> Scott I'm not going to argue with you over the use of stainless for jewellery but as its used as internal devices for humans it can't be that bad.



Indeed--the trick is making sure it's medical-grade stainless steel. If your stainless is strongly magnetic it almost certainly isn't medical grade. A jeweler selling stainless wedding rings is probably selling high-quality steel (medical or otherwise). That guy selling rings off his blanket on the sidewalk might not be.

Titanium (and niobium, too!) are biologically inert as well--I believe the decision on titanium vs. stainless in medical implants is usually based on cost and wear (joints vs. pins), but I'm not a doc.


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## nickvc (Feb 22, 2016)

From what I can gather casting titanium is very expensive to cast due to the fact it will actually burn in normal atmospheres at its melting point so it has to be done in a vacuum,huge added cost, stainless is easier to cast I think, not an expert on these metals so if anyone knows more or better please add to the discussion.
It's not precious metals but fascinating all the same, all knowledge about metals we can and do encounter in refining is good for future recoveries.


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## upcyclist (Feb 22, 2016)

nickvc said:


> From what I can gather casting titanium is very expensive to cast due to the fact it will actually burn in normal atmospheres at its melting point so it has to be done in a vacuum,huge added cost, stainless is easier to cast I think, not an expert on these metals so if anyone knows more or better please add to the discussion.
> It's not precious metals but fascinating all the same, all knowledge about metals we can and do encounter in refining is good for future recoveries.



I thought most stainless & Ti jewelry was machined, not cast. But I use a spincaster and wouldn't be able to cast either one with that rig


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## nickvc (Feb 23, 2016)

As far as I'm aware all stainless and titanium jewellery is spun,pressed or machine formed, faster and automated makes it cheaper on large production runs.
Spin casters can do a fine job on most metals especially gold and silver in the right hands, if you can carve in wax you can create individual pieces or make in metal and use that to create molds for larger scale production, both skills are slowly been lost with cad cam been the most common way now, they never get the look and feel quite right for me though!


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## upcyclist (Feb 24, 2016)

I heartily agree. If someone wants a super-detailed, crisp mechanical design I point them to CAD/CAM designers. I have no plans on learning it.


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## nickvc (Feb 24, 2016)

upcyclist said:


> I heartily agree. If someone wants a super-detailed, crisp mechanical design I point them to CAD/CAM designers. I have no plans on learning it.



:shock: 8) :lol:


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## edsikes (Feb 24, 2016)

well if nothing else this article cleared up a lot of questions as to why im allergic to most metal... no sterling no SS no 10k no tungsten.


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## upcyclist (Feb 24, 2016)

edsikes said:


> well if nothing else this article cleared up a lot of questions as to why im allergic to most metal... no sterling no SS no 10k no tungsten.



Yup, if the problem is nickel, avoid standard white gold (though 18K might work, go for Palladium white to be safe), cheap/unidentified/non-surgical stainless steel, and nickel bronzes/brasses.

If copper is a problem, avoid standard Sterling, low-karat gold (or even high-karat rose gold), and of course brass & bronze.


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