# Clearing the air



## Geo (Feb 22, 2017)

I would like to say thank you to all the members who have helped calm the situation down that has been causing so much tension as of late. I am acting as ambassador from the RoPM and would like to ask for, and hope that, everyone would respect each other and help maintain peace between these two great places that some of us have grown to love and respect. I have talked privately with many members of both forums and they have all expressed to me a sense of foreboding and sadness. 

I would like to say that as far as the RoPM is concerned, it is over. What has been done, is done and over. I have made my position very clear on the RoPM and that being that no form of disrespect will be tolerated. It has been a standing rule on the RoPM that there will be no flaming on other members of either forum. I have spoken with Ken and he agrees. There will be no more inflammatory post or remarks made on the RoPM about the GRF or it's members. I would like to ask for the same courtesy from the members here. 

I would like to address a situation that could be the last sticking point to all of this. Some members have contacted me and expressed the concern that if they post on the RoPM or contribute in any way, they will be reprimanded for it here. In my opinion, this should never have been a concern to begin with. Things were said that I will not repeat, that I feel should be addressed in some way. I have tried to assure members that as long as they follow forum rules about respecting others, there should be no issues but that is one sided.

I would like some kind of assurance from the mods here that co-members will not be reprimanded or punished in any way for posting on the RoPM or contributing in any way as long as it's within the forum rules. Like I said before, no form of disrespect will be permitted. 

On a personal note, I love the GRF and think of it's members as part of my extended family. I have put so much of my heart and time into this forum, it feels like home to me. If I have said or done anything to upset anyone, please believe me when I say that it was not my intentions and I apologize wholeheartedly.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 22, 2017)

I have never seen even a hint of anyone being reprimanded or punished for being on both forums and I can't foresee any problems in the future. In the past, RoPM has been thought of here as one would think of a fly buzzing around your head - annoying but inconsequential. RoPM is a plagiarized carbon copy of GRF. When I was a member, I logged on every day and went through the unread posts. There were many days, and a couple of entire weeks, when no posts were made by anyone.

I'm still annoyed by Ken's big lie insinuating that big bad Noxx was going to come down on him if he allowed members to quote GRF. He said that we were to completely stop quoting GRF. When he came out with this insanity, I argued with him. I told him that he was hurting the members by keeping the best source of PM technical knowledge away from them. Ken doesn't seem to give a s**t about that. I do think I would feel better about RoPM if members could quote GRF. Of course, that would remove a lot of the power from Ken's hands.

If I were Ken, the first thing I would do is get a new URL. Refinement is a real word but, in my 50 years in the refining community, I have never heard it used, not even once. It is one of those amateurish Ken words. Another that he used until I talked to him about it was "aqua regina." In the past, when I was searching gold articles and ran across someone using the term aqua regina, instead of aqua regia, I invariably stopped reading because I absolutely knew that the guy knew absolutely nothing about refining. Then there are those childish annoying cartoon characters that appear everywhere on every page.

If people I care for, like Geo, Nick, Kurt, Chris Barr, Sam, and others weren't on there, I would hope the forum would fail, just because I detest that little p***k, Ken. At this point, I would imagine that Geo would be the only one that truly cares.


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## Geo (Feb 22, 2017)

Thank you GSP. I care a lot about the people I have come to know so I pay attention to the way people act and feel. Some people are hard to like and never seem to fit in. I guess that's the kind of people that I gravitate too. I suppose I just want to understand why. Of course I always respect your decisions although I do not see from the same perspective as you. I am sorry if I played any part in that.


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## aga (Feb 22, 2017)

Loss of resources and participants due to Emotion is never a good thing.

I would hope that even if certain online personalities do not like each other, they could try to avoid name-calling on the open forums.

There should be a way that one day (and soon) all this garbage is forgotten, and old friends, and enemies, can once again participate in sharing what they know about recovering and refining PMs.

Recovering/Refining PMs was the original idea, if i remember it correctly.

"Simmering Over Past, Hasty, and Ill-Considered Words" does not appear in Hoke's work as a method to get Gold out of e-Scrap.

Closest i could find was something about a Steam Bath.


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 22, 2017)

Geo said:


> Thank you GSP. I care a lot about the people I have come to know so I pay attention to the way people act and feel. Some people are hard to like and never seem to fit in. I guess that's the kind of people that I gravitate too. I suppose I just want to understand why. Of course I always respect your decisions although I do not see from the same perspective as you. I am sorry if I played any part in that.



A question for you, Geo. Here's the post that I got banned for: Actually, there's more below than what I actually posted. When he banned me, I had just finished it and had copied it.

_"Here's something I have debated about saying to you. But, since you’ve insulted me, I guess I'll let it all hang out. The incident that pretty much put you in a box, in my mind, was recently when you inquarted that 57g of 18K gold. You asked how much silver to use. First of all why didn't you learn this in the last 6 years that you've been doing this. That's a very basic thing that many learn in their 1st week. This same question was brought up by a mod on the other forum. Why didn't you know how to do that? Then, horror of horrors, you somehow managed to lose 6-8g of the gold. That whole guessing game on that thread was a sham. So, these are things that made me question your abilities. The other guy, Tzoax, when he ran those ICs months ago, one at a time, was weighing the tiny bits of gold on a totally inadequate 1 decimal place scale, if I remember right. At the time, I felt sorry for him, in that he put a ton of work into that and it was all a big waste of time.

How could you possibly be so deluded that you put yourself on the same knowledge level as Lou and 4metals? Like I said before, it takes one to know one, and I know you're not one. I'm not narrow-minded and I have never thought I was better than you or anyone. However, this was my profession for the last 50 years and your putting yourself on the same level as Lou, 4metals, and myself is an insult. I've earned my dues and I know that, knowledge-wise, you're way down on the list. This is not an insult. It is a fact. About everything you know came from us and some of the other mods.

BTW, Jon was one of the best members you've ever had and, from talking to him, I would have to conclude that he knows a lot more than you. He's making a good living from this and to me, that's the only way to measure success in this field."_

Geo, was that worthy of banishment? He was mad because he was going to sell a fraudulent list of IC values and I shot it down by telling everyone just how worthless this list would be. He wants it to be Ken's way or the highway.


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## Geo (Feb 22, 2017)

Chris, of course I don't believe it was worth banning anyone about, and especially you. I told Ken it was a mistake in banning you. There's some things that most people don't know about Ken and it really makes no difference now, but Ken is not the same person I met a few years ago. He is having some serious health issues right now. Everything he was used to and was comfortable with has changed. He is on entirely different medications and his diet has changed. My beloved wife suffers from emotional disorders and I understand them more than some. It is my opinion that the meds he is on is effecting his psyche. The decisions he has been making and and some of his choices he has made makes me question whether or not these new meds may have caused some personality changes. The irrational rage that he exhibits when talking about certain people is a good example. I am not trying to make excuses for Ken. He is a grown man and must live with his decisions. 

I was not privy to the planning or or even the discussion of Alexanders program. It is not something I am interested in. I could not tell you the first thing about it other than what Ken has told me which isn't a whole lot. I fully understand your feelings about it. I wish there was something I could say that would make it better. Alexander is still working on the program as it's not up and running yet.


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## anachronism (Feb 22, 2017)

I too have kept out of this until now. However I need to say my bit given the other open opinions that have been voiced from all sides, especially since I just served a two week ban for engaging with Ken in a far far less animated and forthright manner than some have done so lately. For the record I support those views completely. 

The observation that has been made about the motives for creating RPM are correct. It was created because Ken didn't like the way people were spoken to on here, and he wanted to make an environment where newbies didn't feel like they were constantly preached at or merely told to go and read Hoke. 

In Ken's defence originally the only thing about GRF that was off limits was discussing problems with the moderating. No carping of whining was allowed and frankly that was fair, in the spirit of creating a good environment. The forum picked up and got busier and after a night where I got annoyed with Ken in the chat section, all of a sudden Harold materialised as a moderator. Still speaking to Ken via Skype at this point I asked him why on earth this had happened given the whole purported purpose of starting the forum. Ken told me that Harold was there to provide the benefit of his knowledge and a bridge between the two forums and nothing more at all. Harold told me something completely different i.e. He had been brought over to deal with troublemakers because Ken didn't feel he could do it. Ken lied.

Immediately the post count dropped, new threads became less common, and the decline began on RPM. Aside from varying degrees of silliness which ensued and don't need to be laid bare here we are looking at the end result of complete mismanagement. 

Geo - I hear your points about medication etc. The behaviour exhibited over the last few months has been the behaviour of someone who isn't well. Paranoia for one. Locking the forum down, even altering peoples' posts! The treatment of various other worthy people is simply horrendous. it's all the worst things from George Orwell's Animal Farm. That given there is no excuse and the kindest thing you could do is log out because you have absolutely no idea what is coming next be it today, next week, or next month. Let the guy sort it out in his own private way but this kind of public meltdown is just plain embarrassing. 

Ken needs to get help from somewhere but this is a gold refining forum, not a charitable support organisation and you cannot cover up for him mate because he'll just drag you down with him.

That's my 5 cents having thought long and hard before contributing to this debacle. Use what you can from this and discard the rest. 

Jon


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## kurtak (Feb 23, 2017)

Geo said:


> There will be no more inflammatory post or remarks made on the RoPM about the GRF or it's members. I would like to ask for the same courtesy from the members here.
> 
> I would like to address a situation that could be the last sticking point to all of this. Some members have contacted me and expressed the concern that if they post on the RoPM or contribute in any way, they will be reprimanded for it here. In my opinion, this should never have been a concern to begin with. Things were said that I will not repeat, that I feel should be addressed in some way. I have tried to assure members that as long as they follow forum rules about respecting others, there should be no issues but that is one sided.
> 
> I would like some kind of assurance from the mods here that co-members will not be reprimanded or punished in any way for posting on the RoPM or contributing in any way as long as it's within the forum rules. Like I said before, no form of disrespect will be permitted.



Geo

Per the things I underlined above --- I believe Goran covered all of this in his OP in the thread about the banning of Ken when he ended that OP with the following words



> We do not want to create a conflict between these forums. We have many members in common and we do not want anyone to feel they have to choose between forums. Members are free to continue to belong to any or both forums as they choose.



IMO - Goran managed to speak a LARGE volume of words of wisdom - with the choice of but a "few" words

To the best of my knowledge - there has NEVER been a "competitive" attitude here on GRF of us vs. them (GRF vs. RPM) --- in fact quite the opposite --- members from this forum (including me) have actually "encouraged" members from here to go over & check RPM out --- I see NO reason for that to change

And for the record - I want to thank you for taking my phone call to you the other day Geo - It was a very productive call IMO & well worth the 2 hours spent talking - Thank You 8) :!: 

Kurt


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## goldsilverpro (Feb 23, 2017)

Good post, Jon. Well thought out.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 23, 2017)

kurtak said:


> Per the things I underlined above --- I believe Goran covered all of this in his OP in the thread about the banning of Ken when he ended that OP with the following words
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Kurt, but I can't take the full credit for that formulation. It was a text written and edited by several moderators. We always discuss banning of long standing members thoroughly before taking a stand, so there should never be a banning by a regular member on the whim of a single moderator.

To belong to a forum is to participate in discussions, both reading and posting. That will never be a reason of banning. No one have to be worried about that.
We are not going to police RoPM, that is something left to the management of that forum.

But in the case that someone on RoPM is mounting a personal attack on a member on GRF or for example scamming members of RoPM, then we will take that in consideration if we want him as a member on GRF. This would also be against the rules of RoPM so misbehaving on one of the forums might as well cost them the membership on both.
I would assume this goes both ways, a scammer exposed on GRF could lose his membership on RoPM too. Am I correct Geo?

Spammers and new members not conforming to the rules are banned on the spot though. :mrgreen: 

Göran


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## Geo (Feb 23, 2017)

Göran, absolutely. Spammers and/or scammers are not welcome. These concerns are not necessarily mine, but came from members that are concerned about their memberships on both forums. They are worried that posting their opinion or comments (within forum rules) will result in them being banned. 

I am afraid that I made this post too early. There seems to be a lot of raw nerves and open wounds still. It most assuredly did not go as I had hoped. I was hoping for more of, let's let bygones be bygones. The antagonist was defeated. The giant has been slain. Let's not beat a dead horse. I was asked to let this thread die a natural death. I asked that it be locked or deleted. 

Trust me, I understand that feelings were hurt. I do know the depth of raw emotion that exist and it appears that my presence is just a reminder. I'll stay in the background and try to stay out of sight for awhile. I had been thinking that I had not been posting as much as I should and so I have been been trying to post these last few days along with trying to refine and deal with the drama. Just because of my association, I will be a constant source disruption. 

I have a project I am considering taking on and spoke to Kurt and 4metals about it. It deals with cyanide and could become an ongoing thing. Kurt's post on destroying cyanide waste will be particularly interesting to me. Please post on it if you have time. If I take on the project, I will make a start to finish post about it.

Please everyone, be kind to one another.


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## g_axelsson (Feb 23, 2017)

Hey, Geo, I hope you will continue to post. I was glad to see that you participated as normal in other threads after my post about banning Ken.

Anyone having issues with you posting here (or at the RoPM forum) can send those concerns directly to me.

I don't think we should lock or delete this thread.

Göran


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## butcher (Feb 24, 2017)

Geo and every other member of this forum we are here because of common interest, not all of us will believe the same things or will we always agree. We are all here to help each other in our interest, and we can all help to continue our knowledge in this science as gentlemen and ladies. Here on the gold forum we all try to help others in many other ways, not only to improve our skills, but also to improve our lives. I see members here as a family in that sense, Geo you have been a big brother to the forum family, I say you just keep on posting brother, speak your mind, and may all of us continue to make this forum and family the best we can, share our Ideas, knowledge, and understanding, and settle problems where ever they rear their ugly heads.


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## jason_recliner (Feb 24, 2017)

g_axelsson said:


> Hey, Geo, I hope you will continue to post.


Me too. While chemical equations continue to abound and confound, I doubt there is anyone here from whom I have gleaned as much _*practical*_ knowledge as I have from you, Jeff. You have a unique style about you and I would take my hat off to you, if only I wore one.

I have otherwise utterly no stance whatsoever on any GRF/RPM discussion.


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## Geo (Feb 24, 2017)

Thank you guys for the kind words. I have never been one to shy away from helping, if I can help.


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