# Step by step cat refining



## elfixx (Feb 27, 2009)

I wonder if anyone well versed in cats refining could post a step by step procedure to recover and refine each metal found in them. I'm going to get a few of them in a few week and i'd like to know how to process them. Unfortunatly there is no info in hoke's book about cats refining.


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## Platdigger (Feb 27, 2009)

Well, you could start by buying Steves video on the subject.
Randy


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## jimdoc (Feb 27, 2009)

Hoke's book was written in the forties, long before they even
thought about putting cats on cars. Ammen's book tells you a
little on them, there should be a link to it somewhere on the forum. 

I agree with Platdigger, Steve's DVD is your best investment.
Jim


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## qst42know (Feb 27, 2009)

I'll second that, Steve does a nice job demonstrating the process.


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## elfixx (Feb 27, 2009)

Will cold HCL-CL disolve at least 90% of Rh,Pt and Pd? or is there a beter way of recovering the precious metal? And should I break up the honeycomb into powder or leave em as is? And one last thing. where can I find ammonia hydroxide to precipitate Pt for the further refining of the PGM?


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## lazersteve (Feb 27, 2009)

elfixx said:


> Will cold HCL-CL disolve at least 90% of Rh,Pt and Pd?


Yes, but slowly. A little heat will speed things up.


elfixx said:


> or is there a beter way of recovering the precious metal?


AR will work as will a tube furnace and chlorine gas.


elfixx said:


> And should I break up the honeycomb into powder or leave em as is?


I leave mine whole to allow the solution to penetrate the honeycomb easier. All the PGMs are on the surface of the honeycomb structure. The crushed material clogs filters really easily.


elfixx said:


> And one last thing. where can I find ammonia hydroxide to precipitate Pt for the further refining of the PGM?


 You will need ammonium chloride, you can buy it from a chemical supply house, make your own, or ebay it.

Steve


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm in the chorus singing praises for the DVD on Cat's. I'm waiting for better weather here in Virginia to give it a try.

Has anyone had a chance yet to put it to practice? Some reports on results would be nice.

Steve, do you have any new data on results?

Thanks, Steve


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## lazersteve (Feb 27, 2009)

Steve,

I'm getting between 0.5 and 1.5 grams of mixed PGMs per honeycomb pretty consistently. The large range is due to the make of the catalytic converters. 

I still think gas phase extraction will do better, especially for the Rhodium. The HCl-Cl method will get the Rhodium, but requires some heating.

Steve


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Feb 28, 2009)

Thanks.

Now, about how much honeycomb is there on average per CAT? I'm trying to work out the numbers on this. I know a STRONG buyer of CATS, I'd like to compare what he would pay versus the yield of doing it yourself. Then we can compute the value of your labor and expertise.

I don't think I caught your earlier post on Gas Phase, if there was one.

Here's some data on CPU yields from a very reliable source. 486 CPU's should yield about 3.5 grams of Au per pound of CPU's. The ceramic has another 1/2 gram of Au per pound of CPU's. I'm talking about the broken pieces. The extra 1/2 gram of Au can be extracted by ball milling them into a powder. And yes, there is Ag and Pd in them, but it's questionable whether or not the time and chemicals justify their recovery.


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## jimdoc (Feb 28, 2009)

Steve,
Have you come up with any results on aftermarket cat's?
I see Catmax has them priced at $2 now. 

http://www.catmax.net/pricing.php

I was wondering if they are really that low in PGM's or if they
are making a killing on them. What I was wondering is, if you
paid a range of $10-$20 for converters, would alot of aftermarkets
bring it down to the point of losing money. 
Jim


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## Anonymous (Feb 28, 2009)

jimdoc said:


> Steve,
> Have you come up with any results on aftermarket cat's?
> I see Catmax has them priced at $2 now.
> 
> ...



I personally think after market cats are manufactured to OEM specs, which would have to meet the air pollution specifications as well the automobile manufactures for warranty.


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## qst42know (Feb 28, 2009)

After market cats only have to meet minimal standards (made to a lower quality) and can even be reconditioned, or used but tested. 

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/cert/factshts/catcvrts.pdf


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## lazersteve (Feb 28, 2009)

Noble Metals Recovery said:


> Now, about how much honeycomb is there on average per CAT?



Steve,

Each honeycomb weighs about 1 pound and most cats have two honeycombs so the average weight of honeycomb per cat is 1 kilogram for two honeycombs. Some cats only have one larger honeycomb that weighs at least 1 kilogram or more. It all depends on the cat.

Steve


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Feb 28, 2009)

lazersteve said:


> I'm getting between 0.5 and 1.5 grams of mixed PGMs per honeycomb pretty consistently. The large range is due to the make of the catalytic converters.
> 
> 
> Each honeycomb weighs about 1 pound and most cats have two honeycombs so the average weight of honeycomb per cat is 1 kilogram for two honeycombs. Some cats only have one larger honeycomb that weighs at least 1 kilogram or more. It all depends on the cat.



Good, so now with an average of about 1 gram of mixed PGM's per pound of honeycomb, and an average of about 2 pounds of honeycomb per CAT. That gives us about 2 grams of PGM's per CAT. Knowing it can range from a low of 1 gram to a high of 3 grams.

The only thing needed now for an estimate of the average value realized is an idea as to the mix of PGMs, primarily the Pd to Pt ratio. So, out of 2 grams of mixed PGM's, roughly how much Pt, and how much Pd? Thanks in advance.


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## jimdoc (Feb 28, 2009)

There are way too many variables in converters, some can be all
palladium,or a mix of palladium/Platinum/Rhodium. It depends on the
car maker,engine size,year of vehicle,etc...... 
There is no general answer that you can depend on, maybe just
averages.
Jim


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## qst42know (Feb 28, 2009)

Averages based on minimal data are a real crap shoot. 

Those are Steve's averages based on what he has processed. 

Type, year, and mileage will all affect yields and the accuracy of your averages. The quantities of each you process will change your averages.

You saw the price range for varying type at one buyer of $110 to $2 ? 

That's a huge spread by itself.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Feb 28, 2009)

jimdoc said:


> There are way too many variables in converters, some can be all
> palladium,or a mix of palladium/Platinum/Rhodium. It depends on the
> car maker,engine size,year of vehicle,etc......
> Jim



With that said, it is indeed impossible to get a good average. I'll settle for a "range". What could a typical range be? i.e. If you leave the Rh out of the equation, what are some "typical" ratios of Pd to Pt? 

If the worse case situation is 100% Pd, then an "average" CAT could be worth about $12.00. Best case, if 100% Pt then it would be worth about $60.00, with the Rh being a bonus. This is based on an average of 2 grams of PGM's per CAT.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Feb 28, 2009)

Taking a quick look at CatMax prices. It looks like doing it yourself will pay off reasonably well.


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## elfixx (Feb 28, 2009)

Back to the first goal of this topic... If Rh is solube in AR as well as HCL-CL how can it be precipitated in a refining optic? I mean, once you have precipitated all PGM with zinc and then redisolved them in AR, sodium chlorate will be used to precipitate Pd, Pt with amonium chloride, but what chemical will drop the Rh?


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## jimdoc (Feb 28, 2009)

This link gives some catalytic converter content;

http://www.hpcnet.org/sdsmt/SiteID=199458

It states;
In general there are three types of automobile catalytic converters in terms of the PGM content. Grade 1 consists of 2200 parts per million (ppm) of platinum (Pt), 200 ppm of palladium (Pd) and 300 ppm of rhodium (Rd). Grade 2 has 1000 ppm Pt, 200 ppm Pd, and 100 ppm Rd; while Grade 3 consists of 875 ppm Pt, 250 ppm Pd, and 30 ppm Rd. 

On the average a metric ton of each catalytic converter grade contains the following PGM values: Grade 1 - $34,588; Grade 2 - $16,023; and Grade 3 - $13,667. These values are based on March 13, 1998, metals market prices of platinum at $392/oz., palladium at $264/oz. and rhodium at $535/oz. 

With approximately 700 catalytic converters producing one metric ton of materials, over 21,400 metric tons could be obtained from the 15 million autos that are junked annually in the United States. With a current average value of $21,426 per metric ton for the three grade types (based on March 13, 1998 prices), over $450 million worth of platinum-grade metals could be recovered from these used catalytic converters. 

Also this article was from 1998, so take that into consideration also,
that is probably the age range you will find in junkyards anyway, except for wrecks. And the precious metal prices mentioned will have to be updated to figure the current per ton prices.
Jim


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Feb 28, 2009)

Thank you, great stuff. I'll use it to redo my calculations after adjusting it for today's prices.


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Mar 1, 2009)

jimdoc said:


> With a current average value of $21,426 per metric ton for the three grade types (based on March 13, 1998 prices
> Jim


I took these figures and corrected them for today's prices for Pt and Pd (leaving out the Rh). I used the ratio of Pt to Pd at 1000 ppm for Pt and 200 ppm for Pd based on the data provided.

I come up with an average value of $23.32 per pound of CAT material. So if a CAT averages about 2 pounds of material, they should have an average of $46.64 worth of just Pt and Pd, not counting the Rh.


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## Platdigger (Mar 1, 2009)

You understand that most "pre" cats have even less than a pound of matrix.
So, if you have some of those in the pile, this will tend to drive your average down....not to mention the stainless ones that are out there now.
Randy


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Mar 1, 2009)

I did the calculations based on per pound of CAT honeycomb or beads, not on the weight of the full CAT. What did your reference to stainless mean?


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## jimdoc (Mar 1, 2009)

By stainless he probably meant these;

http://www.catmax.net/galleryCat.php?setID=10

They are totally different than the honeycomb and bead
types. Most places don't buy them, or price them very low.
Jim


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## Platdigger (Mar 1, 2009)

That's right. Alot of the newer vehicles have them now. 
Unless you know what you are looking at, they basically look the same from the outside.
Looking in one end you can see how they spiral around. Like they are wound. Not like the square patern of the ceramic types.

You could also scratch one end (inside) with a screwdriver and see they are metal.
Randy


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## NobleMetalsRecovery (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm familiar with them, I call them wire, or corrugated. At one time when things were really crazy I was getting about $20.00 each for them.


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